# "Vaccinated kids only" creche/playgroup



## felix555

Just wanted to see how common these are out of interest?

My LO will go to playgroup today for the first time (he'll go half days) and their policy is strictly vaccinated kids only. Made me wonder if I've ever heard of that before? 

Doesn't bother me, in fact it's one of the reasons I preferred it. I've had to submit proof of his vaccinations and sign a letter to say he will have any future ones.


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## sue_88

Ms preschool nursery is vaccinated children only, why I chose it.

And there's talk of the main village primary adopting that policy in 2016 (m will start 2017).

I don't know how common but it makes me feel good that this is happening to stand up against anti-vax (through choice I add, immunocompromised are not treated any differently).

Hope you're well and settling over there!! Hope your LO enjoys his play school.


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## sequeena

Good idea :thumbup: as long as they allow children who cannot have vaccines for medical reasons.


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## Larkspur

Love the concept. My LO is just starting a Montessori playgroup and TBH I am a bit anxious about the vaccination status of some of the other kids, but it's hard to ask straight-up who has and hadn't had them.


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## kirstybumx3

I've not heard of one but I like the idea of it.


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## lau86

I'm not sure it sits well with me. Vaccines are not compulsory are they. I assume each playgroup has the right to adopt their own policies but it does seem discriminatory. 
Mine have had their vaccinations so they should be able to mix with whoever they like.
What next?!


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## felix555

Thanks Sue yes he really loved it! The time was right for him to go. He actually cried when I picked him up because he was busy playing. He's only going an hour a day though this week. It's a really good playschool ... Never thought I'd find a place I'd be completely happy with to leave him.

I don't think it discriminates, there must be plenty of places that accept non vaccinated kids ... For someone like myself that's VERY pro vaxx do places like that not discriminate against me that would prefer a place with only vaccinated children?


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## justmeinlove

Good idea though never heard of it


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## lau86

I'd be interested to hear from a parent of a non vaccinated child... Did they realise when they made that decision it would impact on other areas of their life such as what nursery and possibly school they can go to? 
On one hand it's great as it's about as good as you can get for those who can't be vaccinated for medical reasons


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## LoveCakes

I'm pro vac and I find this odd. If as I do you believe vaccines work why would you care if other kids weren't. 

Plus when they go to school there'll be no choice but I can see if you are concerned delaying until they are a bit older may help


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## justmeinlove

Well, you might go to pick up your kid with your unvaccinated newborn. Your kid might not be able to have a vaccination. You might want to avoid the tiny tiny risk that remains.


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## MommyJogger

I think it's a good idea-- those who want vax-only should have the option and public schools have an imperative to protect those who can't vax over providing service to those who make the choice not to. 
Curious: do they require flu/chickenpox? Not sure what's on your schedule over there, but I thought those weren't provided on NHS and had to be gotten privately? (and I'm not even sure I worded that right, so sorry if that came out weird.)


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## felix555

MommyJogger said:


> I think it's a good idea-- those who want vax-only should have the option and public schools have an imperative to protect those who can't vax over providing service to those who make the choice not to.
> Curious: do they require flu/chickenpox? Not sure what's on your schedule over there, but I thought those weren't provided on NHS and had to be gotten privately? (and I'm not even sure I worded that right, so sorry if that came out weird.)

No I understand what you mean and Yes only the routine vaxx as per the government schedule. Flu isn't one but chicken pox is (I think ....I need to check) my LO is on a waiting list to get the chicken pox vaccine but it's out of stock here everywhere.

And I've moved from the UK ... We live in south Africa now! Vaxx schedules are the same though here and there pretty much.


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## Tasha

Chicken pox isn't a routine vaccination here. The flu nasal spray was part of the routine vac plan for two, three and four year olds this past winter.


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## JenX

LoveCakes said:


> I'm pro vac and I find this odd. If as I do you believe vaccines work why would you care if other kids weren't.
> 
> Plus when they go to school there'll be no choice but I can see if you are concerned delaying until they are a bit older may help

Vaccines work, but are not 100% effective. I believe schools here require children to be vaccinated unless there is a medical reason why they cannot be, and a doctor must sign off on that. I know it was a requirement when I was in school.


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## staralfur

I've never heard of that here but I don't see the issue with it. People have the choice to not vaccinate their kids and establishments that protect children have the choice to do that in whatever way they deem necessary. When you make a choice that ignores recommendations then you have to be prepared for consequences. I'm sure there are still plenty of playgroups to choose from that don't have the same requirement. 

To me this isn't discrimination at all - statistically, areas with low vaccination rates see more outbreaks of preventable diseases. Vaccines aren't 100% effective so even those who have been vaccinated can get a disease and have absolutely no idea that they're susceptible. It's dangerous. It's not a bakery saying they won't sell cookies to an unvaccinated child, the vaccination status of a young child is actually relevant in this situation. 

That said, one of my LO's best friends isn't vaccinated, so this isn't a huge selling point for me.


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## RaspberryK

Never heard of it and all a bit bizarre imo. 
Xx


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## AnneD

sequeena said:


> Good idea :thumbup: as long as they allow children who cannot have vaccines for medical reasons.

Agree with sequeena. I really like the idea, wish we had that here. Not vaccinating kids (unless there are medical reasons) or delaying the schedule just to be contrary doesn't sit well with me.


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## sophxx

I think it's a great idea. X


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## zorak

My LO goes to an in home family daycare and while it isn't an official policy it was important enough an issue to the provider that she mentions during initial interviews she prefers kids to be vaccinated. Her own daughter was a newborn when my son started so I completely understood.


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## Wriggley

Yes I think that's a great policy as long as it don't effext children who can't have vaccines due to medical reasons 

This whole anti vax 'trend' does worry me that at some point there's going to be a massive outbreak of some nasty illnesses :/ 

I have recently been looking into the new men b vaccine and came across info on the current meningitis vaccines and it says that some strains are pretty much non existent since the vaccine was avaliable 

I really don't understand the whole anti vax thing


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## sequeena

It was only 2 years ago my town and the surrounding areas had a massive outbreak of measles. Someone died of it.


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## Bevziibubble

The nursery Holly is going to soon asked me to bring her red book in for proof of the dates she had her vaccinations, so I think it's mandatory at this nursery.


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## Midnight_Fairy

I have never ever been asked. Both my girls had delayed MMR but Jade was offered a place and no where has checked. She hasn't actually started but it wasnt mentioned. Becausr I delayed mmr it means my girls have not/didnt have the boosters untill age 5 so obviously although vaccinated would be classed by not up to date by most people standards. Had no trouble with school or anything. my friends LO also just had boosters age 8 x


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## KatieB

I had to fill in forms for both Alex's nursery (same when Louis went there too) and Louis' nursery class at the local primary to confirm dates for vaccinations and if they were up to date.


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## hayz_baby

I think it's great that it gives rights/peace of mind to parents who send their lo to preschool/etc who cannot have vax for medical reasons.
When I was in secondary school I went out with a guy with a heart problem and couldn't have the bcg (when it was routinely offered) he had to tell his mum that I had it


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## felix555

Wriggley said:


> Yes I think that's a great policy as long as it don't effext children who can't have vaccines due to medical reasons
> 
> This whole anti vax 'trend' does worry me that at some point there's going to be a massive outbreak of some nasty illnesses :/
> 
> I have recently been looking into the new men b vaccine and came across info on the current meningitis vaccines and it says that some strains are pretty much non existent since the vaccine was avaliable
> 
> I really don't understand the whole anti vax thing

Yes don't get me started on this. Worryingly the anti vaxx movement seems to be really picking up steam too. I'll stop there because I can carry on about the selfishness and ignorance of it for days .... 

Meningitis is my worst fear, my LO had suspected meningitis at 6 weeks (turned out to be a severe UTI) but I was so scared.

Not sure how far you are from London but there is a place in Wimbledon that does the men b vax a lot cheaper than most other places, my LO had it there.


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## overcomer79

zorak said:


> My LO goes to an in home family daycare and while it isn't an official policy it was important enough an issue to the provider that she mentions during initial interviews she prefers kids to be vaccinated. Her own daughter was a newborn when my son started so I completely understood.

Same here. Our daycare isolated infants until after their 2 month shots. My kids are in home as well.


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## d_b

Sounds like a good idea because I used to take both kids with me to playgroups from when DS2 was only a few weeks old so not yet vaccinated.


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## Midnight_Fairy

Oh at toddler groups no one asks at all.


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## Bevziibubble

They don't ask at our toddler groups either.


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## tommyg

Not been asked either but I fully understand the logic. I assume they would accept kids who haven't been vaccinated on medical grounds and the policy may have been introduced to protect a poorly child.
I presume they aren't bothered about the chicken pox and flu jabs. But the anti vac movement is frightening.


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## Springflower

I'm curious to know how an anti vac person would respond?


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## PoppyPainting

There was a measles epidemic here when my little girl was under 6months old. I was too frightened to take her out for a couple of months in case she caught it. We missed out on lots of chances to meet other new mums and I was severely peed off with those parents who had through their choices impacted so negatively on my life.

Where I live (Swansea) there was a big fuss made in the paper about the 'study' that linked mmr to autism. And then very little reporting of the disproving of that study. All the kids locally were offered to have boosters or be fully vacinated if they hadn't been done originally and the take up rate was huge amongst young families but only about 1/3 in the 11 year old plus age group who were the age when the autism link was made. 

So I'm totally pro-vax and if a school or nursery require it then good for them!


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## Midnight_Fairy

Autism was not the reason we delayed x


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## sequeena

Poppy you're not far from me. I'm in port talbot. My son had already had his mmr but they offered him another and I queued hours in the hospital for it.


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## x__amour

Sounds like a fine idea to me. 

My DD's VPK she's attending this fall mandates vaccinations unless specifically written off by their pediatrician for a medical reason. I believe the principal said there were 2 children in total out of 40. They have to have their complete shot record as well as a physical completed by August. It makes me really happy honestly especially as DS's important vaccinations are not complete yet because of his age.


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## Pearls18

I can understand why they have done that, I studied in the States for a semester and I had to prove I had had certain vaccines to be allowed attend the university. I almost think schools should be allowed to do the same thing in order to protect all the vaccinated children and those who were medically unable to have them, however, I understand this infringes on a child's right to education and would punish the child for the parents decision so I understand this isn't a realistic or fair thing to do, but maybe if the government had a stronger stance on it parents would realise the severity of the decisions they were making.

However, I was watching something the other day and apparently 95% of british children are vaccinated for MMR so I really don't think the supposed anti vaccine movement is as prolific as we think, and apparently they think it's mostly parents who are less...involved shall we say and forget to vaccinate rather than deliberately opting out that make up the 5%. But that said the measles outbreak in Swansea was a horrific example of what can happen so I hope it is referenced as much as possible! It must have been terrifying having young kids in Swansea during that period.


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## Kitteh_Kat

I don't know if it's quite the same, but the child services administration here on post (daycare, groups, activities, etc) is pretty strict about vaccines. When we went to enroll her last month she was missing the fourth shot in one of the series and they refused to accept her until she got it and we brought back proof. Even the nurse that did the shot was surprised they made us come get it then instead of waiting for her 2 year check-up, since she had already had the first three. Didn't' bother us though, we're glad they take vaccinations seriously!

My university also made me provide my vaccination record when I enrolled.

There's a 6 year old in Florida that has measles, and it doesn't look like she was vaccinated against it. I hope she recovers quickly. :(


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## shanny

lau86 said:


> I'm not sure it sits well with me. Vaccines are not compulsory are they. I assume each playgroup has the right to adopt their own policies but it does seem discriminatory.
> Mine have had their vaccinations so they should be able to mix with whoever they like.
> What next?!

It does not sit well with me either as children who do not choose this path might miss out?

I live in a rural area where are not many choices for preschool so not sure how it would work??


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## JleStar

Larkspur said:


> Love the concept. My LO is just starting a Montessori playgroup and TBH I am a bit anxious about the vaccination status of some of the other kids, but it's hard to ask straight-up who has and hadn't had them.

Hey hun,
I don't want to sound rude but what are you anxious about with non vaccinated children? I guess I get it. But in a way I don't because if you are vaccinated then aren't your protected from the diseases you are afraid of? Also if a child is not vaccinated then they are not carrying the "illness." They are just not carrying the so called "antibodies" that vaccines provide. 
Of course if they were ever to get it (illness) then they should definitely stay home. Aren't there policies in the schools for illnesses? And again, I am going around in a circle but if say for instance a child came to school with the measles then shouldn't the children who are vaccinated be protected? Please enlighten me. I don't get the alarm!

I am sorry it just doesn't make sense to me. 

No, I am not anti-vac just pro "correct" information. Its a shame that the new prejudice is the un vaccinated. 

Just my opinion. I of course can be wrong. And yes I am fully vaccinated.


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## felix555

JleStar said:


> Larkspur said:
> 
> 
> Love the concept. My LO is just starting a Montessori playgroup and TBH I am a bit anxious about the vaccination status of some of the other kids, but it's hard to ask straight-up who has and hadn't had them.
> 
> Hey hun,
> I don't want to sound rude but what are you anxious about with non vaccinated children? I guess I get it. But in a way I don't because if you are vaccinated then aren't your protected from the diseases you are afraid of? Also if a child is not vaccinated then they are not carrying the "illness." They are just not carrying the so called "antibodies" that vaccines provide.
> Of course if they were ever to get it (illness) then they should definitely stay home. Aren't there policies in the schools for illnesses? And again, I am going around in a circle but if say for instance a child came to school with the measles then shouldn't the children who are vaccinated be protected? Please enlighten me. I don't get the alarm!
> 
> I am sorry it just doesn't make sense to me.
> 
> No, I am not anti-vac just pro "correct" information. Its a shame that the new prejudice is the un vaccinated.
> 
> Just my opinion. I of course can be wrong. And yes I am fully vaccinated.Click to expand...

Vaccinations decrease your risk of getting an illness it also gives you protection if you are vaccinated and get the illness so you will get a lesser strain of the illness. I don't think anyone here is saying my child is vaccinated so can't get sick. If only that was the case then I wouldn't care less about others vaccinating. We also rely on herd immunity. Exactly why this is one parenting choice that someone else makes that can affect my child.

My aim in life is to protect my child, if you believe meningitis (for instance) is no biggie then I will reduce my child's risk by keeping him away from yours (by you/yours I mean the mother that won't vaccinate)


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## Wriggley

felix555 said:


> Wriggley said:
> 
> 
> Yes I think that's a great policy as long as it don't effext children who can't have vaccines due to medical reasons
> 
> This whole anti vax 'trend' does worry me that at some point there's going to be a massive outbreak of some nasty illnesses :/
> 
> I have recently been looking into the new men b vaccine and came across info on the current meningitis vaccines and it says that some strains are pretty much non existent since the vaccine was avaliable
> 
> I really don't understand the whole anti vax thing
> 
> Yes don't get me started on this. Worryingly the anti vaxx movement seems to be really picking up steam too. I'll stop there because I can carry on about the selfishness and ignorance of it for days ....
> 
> Meningitis is my worst fear, my LO had suspected meningitis at 6 weeks (turned out to be a severe UTI) but I was so scared.
> 
> Not sure how far you are from London but there is a place in Wimbledon that does the men b vax a lot cheaper than most other places, my LO had it there.Click to expand...

I'm with you on this, I really don't understand the logic of it all :/ and thanks we live a good hour or so away from London so would probably work out same if not more after two trips :( but thanks anyways 

I Definetly dont think its discrimination I think that's being a bit dramatic - sometimes if you do things out of the box you have to accept the consequences - also I doubt nurseries would refuse a non vax child due to medical condition in fact the policies on vax may be there to protect the children at these nurseries who simply cannot be vaccined it's probably a lot more common then we think so I 100% agree with the policy as long as it don't effext childreb with medical reason


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## lau86

I guess when I said it was discrimination I meant the kids are being treated unfairly because of something that isn't their fault, after all it's their parents choice. 
I understand the other side too, that unvaccinated children can be a risk to vaccinated children and I would probably be unhappy if I was the parent of a child with a medical condition. 
Like others have said, I'm not sure I understand the logic of a vaccinated playgroup on a practical level, unless your kids are not going to mix with other kids anywhere else.


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## felix555

lau86 said:


> I guess when I said it was discrimination I meant the kids are being treated unfairly because of something that isn't their fault, after all it's their parents choice.
> I understand the other side too, that unvaccinated children can be a risk to vaccinated children and I would probably be unhappy if I was the parent of a child with a medical condition.
> *Like others have said, I'm not sure I understand the logic of a vaccinated playgroup on a practical level, unless your kids are not going to mix with other kids anywhere else.*

It's just about reducing risk. That argument is a bit like saying no need to use an umbrella in the rain because your shoes will still get wet from the walking.

Just noticed your ticker. Congratulations!


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## JleStar

felix555 said:


> lau86 said:
> 
> 
> I guess when I said it was discrimination I meant the kids are being treated unfairly because of something that isn't their fault, after all it's their parents choice.
> I understand the other side too, that unvaccinated children can be a risk to vaccinated children and I would probably be unhappy if I was the parent of a child with a medical condition.
> *Like others have said, I'm not sure I understand the logic of a vaccinated playgroup on a practical level, unless your kids are not going to mix with other kids anywhere else.*
> 
> It's just about reducing risk. That argument is a bit like saying no need to use an umbrella in the rain because your shoes will still get wet from the walking.
> 
> Just noticed your ticker. Congratulations!Click to expand...


You know this talk always gives me a headache because ultimately we all love our children and wish the best for them in all aspects and in this case--health wise. 

Let me ask you a question. Do you know about shedding? When a child is vaccinated they can shed the virus to others and spread the disease....so should a vaccinated child be excluded from being around groups of people for a period of time, maybe a week or 2 so the public can be safe. IT is the same thing. Your choice for vaccinating may also contribute to others getting ill, without you being aware of it.

I don't know...the whole thing just doesn't seem right. What happened to preventing disease with making our immune systems stronger the right way. Like I said I am not anti vax but you can't avoid a whole group of innocent children, who are probably very healthy because you fear something that they "MAY" spread to your child, if in the chance they actually get it to begin with. 

I'm sorry. Don't want to steer your thread into another debate.

I am also looking into a day care for my son. I don't think my child should fear the un-vaccinated. He eats healthy, takes his vitamins and gets plenty of sunshine. He knows to wash his hands etc etc....of course he is not immune, I know that anything can happen but I would feel wrong to support any day care that is discriminating against people free choice, especially if they made an informed decision and do not agree with the "science"backing vaccines. I know people personally that were devastated with the effects Vax had on their children. ITs a scary thing, you almost are paralyzed and don't know what to do when you hear those stories. Anyways, do what is best for your child.

Good luck to you.


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## Larkspur

JleStar said:


> Larkspur said:
> 
> 
> Love the concept. My LO is just starting a Montessori playgroup and TBH I am a bit anxious about the vaccination status of some of the other kids, but it's hard to ask straight-up who has and hadn't had them.
> 
> Hey hun,
> I don't want to sound rude but what are you anxious about with non vaccinated children? I guess I get it. But in a way I don't because if you are vaccinated then aren't your protected from the diseases you are afraid of? Also if a child is not vaccinated then they are not carrying the "illness." They are just not carrying the so called "antibodies" that vaccines provide.
> Of course if they were ever to get it (illness) then they should definitely stay home. Aren't there policies in the schools for illnesses? And again, I am going around in a circle but if say for instance a child came to school with the measles then shouldn't the children who are vaccinated be protected? Please enlighten me. I don't get the alarm!
> 
> I am sorry it just doesn't make sense to me.
> 
> No, I am not anti-vac just pro "correct" information. Its a shame that the new prejudice is the un vaccinated.
> 
> Just my opinion. I of course can be wrong. And yes I am fully vaccinated.Click to expand...

As Felix said, vaccination isn't 100 percent perfect immunity. Especially when kids have only had one dose (eg MMR) and aren't old enough for the next one. Also, I have a baby who would be with me most of the time for pickup and drop off. She hasn't had her first MMR yet and won't for another few months. Measles is so infectious you can get it by being in the same room with someone who is contagious. 

I know how illness works and that unvaccinated children are not just randomly carrying all diseases. But the fact is that unvaccinated children are VASTLY more likely to catch and spread diseases, many of which look just like a cold at the infectious stage. 

As for vaccine shedding, it's only for live vaccines, like MMR, and it's extremely low-risk compared to normal disease spread but yes, I do do immune-compromised people the courtesy of avoiding them in the fortnight after my children receive live vaccines.


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## Zephram

JleStar said:


> felix555 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> lau86 said:
> 
> 
> I guess when I said it was discrimination I meant the kids are being treated unfairly because of something that isn't their fault, after all it's their parents choice.
> I understand the other side too, that unvaccinated children can be a risk to vaccinated children and I would probably be unhappy if I was the parent of a child with a medical condition.
> *Like others have said, I'm not sure I understand the logic of a vaccinated playgroup on a practical level, unless your kids are not going to mix with other kids anywhere else.*
> 
> It's just about reducing risk. That argument is a bit like saying no need to use an umbrella in the rain because your shoes will still get wet from the walking.
> 
> Just noticed your ticker. Congratulations!Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You know this talk always gives me a headache because ultimately we all love our children and wish the best for them in all aspects and in this case--health wise.
> 
> Let me ask you a question. Do you know about shedding? When a child is vaccinated they can shed the virus to others and spread the disease....so should a vaccinated child be excluded from being around groups of people for a period of time, maybe a week or 2 so the public can be safe. IT is the same thing. Your choice for vaccinating may also contribute to others getting ill, without you being aware of it.
> 
> I don't know...the whole thing just doesn't seem right. *What happened to preventing disease with making our immune systems stronger the right way.* Like I said I am not anti vax but you can't avoid a whole group of innocent children, who are probably very healthy because you fear something that they "MAY" spread to your child, if in the chance they actually get it to begin with.
> 
> I'm sorry. Don't want to steer your thread into another debate.
> 
> I am also looking into a day care for my son. I don't think my child should fear the un-vaccinated. He eats healthy, takes his vitamins and gets plenty of sunshine. He knows to wash his hands etc etc....of course he is not immune, I know that anything can happen but I would feel wrong to support any day care that is discriminating against people free choice, especially if they made an informed decision and do not agree with the "science"backing vaccines. I know people personally that were devastated with the effects Vax had on their children. ITs a scary thing, you almost are paralyzed and don't know what to do when you hear those stories. Anyways, do what is best for your child.
> 
> Good luck to you.Click to expand...

In reference to the bolded statement above (second bolded statement! Silly quote thing!): This is one of the greatest fallacies bandied about regarding vaccines. Whether or not you are making your immune system 'stronger' - what you really mean here is working to its optimum level - through a healthy diet, exercise, lifestyle, etc, this will not in any way stop you getting an illness if you are genuinely exposed (someone sneezes in your eye whilst having a highly contagious respiratory virus, for example), and, in fact, having a 'stronger' immune system can actually cause a more severe illness in the case of some diseases. Prime example here being the 1918 flu pandemic. Traditionally flu is most dangerous to the very young and the very old, however this particular strain killed more young, strong adults than is usually seen because the 'strength' of their immune system worked against them. They weren't killed by the flu virus directly, but by the defensive immune response (cytokine storm) their bodies put up by fighting the virus, which was much stronger for this age group - due to health and strength - than other groups.

This is why it is important to vaccinate - because having a 'strong' (whatever you take that to mean) immune system will not a) stop you from contracting a virus, and b) will not necessarily lessen the severity of the disease and in some cases may work against you.


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## Larkspur

I would also say in reference to the statement Zephram bolded, there's no reason to make it an either/or situation. People who vaccinate don't just go "Hey, now I can just leaving my kid playing video games indoors and eating junk food all day because they're vaccinated and don't need to be healthy." 

Of course you want your kids to eat healthy food and run and play in the sun so they can fight off coughs and colds easily and hopefully not develop chronic health conditions when they're older. But all the sunshine and broccoli in the world isn't going to help them if they get measles or tetanus or polio.


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## Zephram

Totally agree with Larkspur.


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## lau86

JleStar said:


> felix555 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> lau86 said:
> 
> 
> I guess when I said it was discrimination I meant the kids are being treated unfairly because of something that isn't their fault, after all it's their parents choice.
> I understand the other side too, that unvaccinated children can be a risk to vaccinated children and I would probably be unhappy if I was the parent of a child with a medical condition.
> *Like others have said, I'm not sure I understand the logic of a vaccinated playgroup on a practical level, unless your kids are not going to mix with other kids anywhere else.*
> 
> It's just about reducing risk. That argument is a bit like saying no need to use an umbrella in the rain because your shoes will still get wet from the walking.
> 
> Just noticed your ticker. Congratulations!Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You know this talk always gives me a headache because ultimately we all love our children and wish the best for them in all aspects and in this case--health wise.
> 
> Let me ask you a question. Do you know about shedding? When a child is vaccinated they can shed the virus to others and spread the disease....so should a vaccinated child be excluded from being around groups of people for a period of time, maybe a week or 2 so the public can be safe. IT is the same thing. Your choice for vaccinating may also contribute to others getting ill, without you being aware of it.
> 
> I don't know...the whole thing just doesn't seem right. What happened to preventing disease with making our immune systems stronger the right way. Like I said I am not anti vax but you can't avoid a whole group of innocent children, who are probably very healthy because you fear something that they "MAY" spread to your child, if in the chance they actually get it to begin with.
> 
> I'm sorry. Don't want to steer your thread into another debate.
> 
> I am also looking into a day care for my son. I don't think my child should fear the un-vaccinated. He eats healthy, takes his vitamins and gets plenty of sunshine. He knows to wash his hands etc etc....of course he is not immune, I know that anything can happen but I would feel wrong to support any day care that is discriminating against people free choice, especially if they made an informed decision and do not agree with the "science"backing vaccines. I know people personally that were devastated with the effects Vax had on their children. ITs a scary thing, you almost are paralyzed and don't know what to do when you hear those stories. Anyways, do what is best for your child.
> 
> Good luck to you.Click to expand...

My understanding of vaccines is that if everyone is vaccinated, over time the disease would be eradicated?? Like polio and diphtheria are now over here? I do believe vaccines are the way to go, vaccination is not the same as injecting the live virus into the body is it... The virus is killed or altered in some way first. I'd be interested in seeing any research that suggests vaccines can cause the disease in unvaccinated people... I've never heard that before. 
I do think it's a really interesting subject and I can see all sides, for me anti-vac seems quite misguided but they also probably think I'm extremely condescending. Ideally I would like everyone who can be to be vaccinated and by isolating kids into vacc and non vacc playgroups that is surely putting the non vacc at risk... But there are people that say well it's their parents choice to do that...


----------



## Pearls18

Yeah who needs vaccinations anyway let's get back to the days of letting our own immune systems deal with deadly disease, vaccines are probably just making our society weaker and too big, let's go back to the days of no intervention, let's let Darwinism decide who should survive into adulthood.


----------



## JleStar

MarineWAG said:


> Yeah who needs vaccinations anyway let's get back to the days of letting our own immune systems deal with deadly disease, vaccines are probably just making our society weaker and too big, let's go back to the days of no intervention, let's let Darwinism decide who should survive into adulthood.

Listen there is a lot of debate whether we are trading in one "deadly" disease for another. 
Again, this is ALL debatable. Even the claims that these vaccines took out these terrible diseases is a fallacy according to some info I read out there, by Dr.'s, scientists, not lay people. 
*Being fully vaccinated*, I still can't help but read ALL of the information and watch all of the documentaries out there funded by and NOT funded by corps and I am left feeling confused. IS there ANY validity in what they are claiming? I am not one to turn around and close my eyes to all information people around the world are presenting. Do you really think it is some big conspiracy, either way???? It doesn't add up..Something is wrong here and people need to wake up on both sides. I Don't want these wild infectious diseases but I also don't want life long auto-immune diseases and a big question mark of other ailments that I may never link back to vaccines. 

There are *claims *of type 1 diabetes, among many other auto-immune diseases, cancer, yes and even autism...please don't tell me that that was debunked because it "was" debunked but now that DR. in question is being vindicated....(forgive me for my analogy) But I liken it to someone being accused and convicted of murder, a fire storm of media covering it, People saying "Yea I knew he did it! Die MF!" then many years later a small mention of that same person being innocent because of recent evidence found....you rarely here of the stories in the after math but it happens, you see what I mean, there is a lot of information. I can't see how any one can be soooo pro-vax or sooo anti--vaxxx, I for one am still confused on the whole issue. I really am....sorry to come in here with my confusion. I guess it is my problem to sort. I just wish all of us had the same problem, I still don't get it. If you see both sides of the coin they contradict one another, so what is it? Who is right? Why hasn't this debate been resolved? Where are all the studies that test vax vs. un-vax??? I want to see those so I can feel better about the decision I felt forced to make. 

Again, I hate doing this to myself. These talk makes me nauseated, but don't worry I am just some "crazy" citizen of this world looking for clear cut answers on an important topic. I must be a whack job, selfish and a conspiracy theorist. No, seriously forget about everything that I said. Maybe when we are all in old age home at the ripe age of 90 (if we make it that far :) We can have this boring, sickening debate again. In due time all things are revealed..hopefully I will not suffer for the choices I have made. 

Good luck to all and God Bless, seriously mean it. I have nothing but love for my fellow mamas out there who are trying desperately to protect their little cubs. It can be a scary world.


----------



## lau86

I don't know where you are but here... There is no question that vaccines can only be a good thing, from the health professional point of view. I went to medical school and we were taught how they work, why they work from an immunology point of view. It was years ago and not something I need on a day to day basis. I've never had to defend the use of vaccines in my career so far... People either accept what the nhs recommends or they do their own research and decide it's not worth it. In my mind vaccines aren't perfect but those diseases are killers.
Eta you sound like you've gone round and round with this one, you probably just need to pick a side!

Also... Yes I do believe some of the vaccines in our schedule have alterior motives... The rota virus for example... Rota virus kills a tiny tiny amount of kids in the modern world... I believe the main aim of that vaccine is to prevent the cost of kids staying in hospital being rehydrated. But for me... The vast majority of vaccines stop death of the individual.


----------



## Pearls18

JleStar said:


> MarineWAG said:
> 
> 
> Yeah who needs vaccinations anyway let's get back to the days of letting our own immune systems deal with deadly disease, vaccines are probably just making our society weaker and too big, let's go back to the days of no intervention, let's let Darwinism decide who should survive into adulthood.
> 
> Listen there is a lot of debate whether we are trading in one "deadly" disease for another.
> Again, this is ALL debatable. Even the claims that these vaccines took out these terrible diseases is a fallacy according to some info I read out there, by Dr.'s, scientists, not lay people.
> *Being fully vaccinated*, I still can't help but read ALL of the information and watch all of the documentaries out there funded by and NOT funded by corps and I am left feeling confused. IS there ANY validity in what they are claiming? I am not one to turn around and close my eyes to all information people around the world are presenting. Do you really think it is some big conspiracy, either way???? It doesn't add up..Something is wrong here and people need to wake up on both sides. I Don't want these wild infectious diseases but I also don't want life long auto-immune diseases and a big question mark of other ailments that I may never link back to vaccines.
> 
> There are *claims *of type 1 diabetes, among many other auto-immune diseases, cancer, yes and even autism...please don't tell me that that was debunked because it "was" debunked but now that DR. in question is being vindicated....(forgive me for my analogy) But I liken it to someone being accused and convicted of murder, a fire storm of media covering it, People saying "Yea I knew he did it! Die MF!" then many years later a small mention of that same person being innocent because of recent evidence found....you rarely here of the stories in the after math but it happens, you see what I mean, there is a lot of information. I can't see how any one can be soooo pro-vax or sooo anti--vaxxx, I for one am still confused on the whole issue. I really am....sorry to come in here with my confusion. I guess it is my problem to sort. I just wish all of us had the same problem, I still don't get it. If you see both sides of the coin they contradict one another, so what is it? Who is right? Why hasn't this debate been resolved? Where are all the studies that test vax vs. un-vax??? I want to see those so I can feel better about the decision I felt forced to make.
> 
> Again, I hate doing this to myself. These talk makes me nauseated, but don't worry I am just some "crazy" citizen of this world looking for clear cut answers on an important topic. I must be a whack job, selfish and a conspiracy theorist. No, seriously forget about everything that I said. Maybe when we are all in old age home at the ripe age of 90 (if we make it that far :) We can have this boring, sickening debate again. In due time all things are revealed..hopefully I will not suffer for the choices I have made.
> 
> Good luck to all and God Bless, seriously mean it. I have nothing but love for my fellow mamas out there who are trying desperately to protect their little cubs. It can be a scary world.Click to expand...

There is no debate in the context you state, there are conspiracy theories, big difference. Saying that because some uneducated people (I'm not using that as a blow, I too am uneducated on the matter hence listening to those qualified to know about it) out there scaremonger with their inaccurate and unfounded theories on the Internet has created a "debate" on the issue is incorrect.


----------



## JleStar

MarineWAG said:


> JleStar said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MarineWAG said:
> 
> 
> Yeah who needs vaccinations anyway let's get back to the days of letting our own immune systems deal with deadly disease, vaccines are probably just making our society weaker and too big, let's go back to the days of no intervention, let's let Darwinism decide who should survive into adulthood.
> 
> Listen there is a lot of debate whether we are trading in one "deadly" disease for another.
> Again, this is ALL debatable. Even the claims that these vaccines took out these terrible diseases is a fallacy according to some info I read out there, by Dr.'s, scientists, not lay people.
> *Being fully vaccinated*, I still can't help but read ALL of the information and watch all of the documentaries out there funded by and NOT funded by corps and I am left feeling confused. IS there ANY validity in what they are claiming? I am not one to turn around and close my eyes to all information people around the world are presenting. Do you really think it is some big conspiracy, either way???? It doesn't add up..Something is wrong here and people need to wake up on both sides. I Don't want these wild infectious diseases but I also don't want life long auto-immune diseases and a big question mark of other ailments that I may never link back to vaccines.
> 
> There are *claims *of type 1 diabetes, among many other auto-immune diseases, cancer, yes and even autism...please don't tell me that that was debunked because it "was" debunked but now that DR. in question is being vindicated....(forgive me for my analogy) But I liken it to someone being accused and convicted of murder, a fire storm of media covering it, People saying "Yea I knew he did it! Die MF!" then many years later a small mention of that same person being innocent because of recent evidence found....you rarely here of the stories in the after math but it happens, you see what I mean, there is a lot of information. I can't see how any one can be soooo pro-vax or sooo anti--vaxxx, I for one am still confused on the whole issue. I really am....sorry to come in here with my confusion. I guess it is my problem to sort. I just wish all of us had the same problem, I still don't get it. If you see both sides of the coin they contradict one another, so what is it? Who is right? Why hasn't this debate been resolved? Where are all the studies that test vax vs. un-vax??? I want to see those so I can feel better about the decision I felt forced to make.
> 
> Again, I hate doing this to myself. These talk makes me nauseated, but don't worry I am just some "crazy" citizen of this world looking for clear cut answers on an important topic. I must be a whack job, selfish and a conspiracy theorist. No, seriously forget about everything that I said. Maybe when we are all in old age home at the ripe age of 90 (if we make it that far :) We can have this boring, sickening debate again. In due time all things are revealed..hopefully I will not suffer for the choices I have made.
> 
> Good luck to all and God Bless, seriously mean it. I have nothing but love for my fellow mamas out there who are trying desperately to protect their little cubs. It can be a scary world.Click to expand...
> 
> There is no debate in the context you state, there are conspiracy theories, big difference. Saying that because some uneducated people (I'm not using that as a blow, I too am uneducated on the matter hence listening to those qualified to know about it) out there scaremonger with their inaccurate and unfounded theories on the Internet has created a "debate" on the issue is incorrect.Click to expand...

I disagree..there certainly is debate. And please stop calling someone elses view point a conspiracy theory. I just detest that. Say that to the child who was vaccine injured and compensated by the government for being damaged by a vaccine.

Also...They are educated. I am still listening to the so called experts who are doctors and scientists on both sides, who have studies to suggest other wise. Forget it. Just my decision to make


----------



## misspriss

Legally speaking, in my state you can get an exemption to attend school or daycare. A private institution, which receives no state money, could theoretically institute such a policy, but I'd probably (as a non-vaxx) not be interested in an establishment with such policies. If they receive state money, I'm fairly certain they can't discriminate against an exemption issued by the state.

Most daycares and schools have in their policies that students must be up to date on the CDC schedule, or legal up to date exemption provided. Again, I don't think I'd feel discriminated against, I'd just not be interested in an establishment with such policies. That being said, I live in an area with plenty of daycares and schools. That also being said, I'm a SAHM who plans to homeschool, so I don't see it ever being an issue at all.


----------



## felix555

misspriss said:


> Legally speaking, in my state you can get an exemption to attend school or daycare. A private institution, which receives no state money, could theoretically institute such a policy, but *I'd probably (as a non-vaxx) not be interested in an establishment with such policies*. If they receive state money, I'm fairly certain they can't discriminate against an exemption issued by the state.
> 
> Most daycares and schools have in their policies that students must be up to date on the CDC schedule, or legal up to date exemption provided. Again, I don't think I'd feel discriminated against, I'd just not be interested in an establishment with such policies. That being said, I live in an area with plenty of daycares and schools. That also being said, I'm a SAHM who plans to homeschool, so I don't see it ever being an issue at all.

This is how I would have thought most anti-vaxx parents feel about this. Just like if there was a crèche that only accepted unvaccinated children that my son wouldn't be able to attend I'd be like yes thanks but no thanks not only because a) the diseased little kids (I am kidding I swear! :haha:) but B) because they have policies I do not agree with.


----------



## Midnight_Fairy

I also have a close link with a family of a vaccine damage child (confirmed) and it has opened my eyes to choice with research. IE only delay/unvaccinated if you have done proper research.


----------



## Natsku

I doubt a vaccinated-only public nursery would be allowed here, as it goes against the basic right of the child to attend, but I imagine private nurseries/playgroups might be able to demand vaccinated kids only but I've never heard of it happening. Its not even a thing that's really talked about much here, most parents vaccinate so you'd just assume all the kids are vaccinated but recently the numbers have been dropping, to epidemic possible levels so I wish people would talk about it more.




JleStar said:


> felix555 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> lau86 said:
> 
> 
> I guess when I said it was discrimination I meant the kids are being treated unfairly because of something that isn't their fault, after all it's their parents choice.
> I understand the other side too, that unvaccinated children can be a risk to vaccinated children and I would probably be unhappy if I was the parent of a child with a medical condition.
> *Like others have said, I'm not sure I understand the logic of a vaccinated playgroup on a practical level, unless your kids are not going to mix with other kids anywhere else.*
> 
> It's just about reducing risk. That argument is a bit like saying no need to use an umbrella in the rain because your shoes will still get wet from the walking.
> 
> Just noticed your ticker. Congratulations!Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You know this talk always gives me a headache because ultimately we all love our children and wish the best for them in all aspects and in this case--health wise.
> 
> Let me ask you a question. Do you know about shedding? When a child is vaccinated they can shed the virus to others and spread the disease....so should a vaccinated child be excluded from being around groups of people for a period of time, maybe a week or 2 so the public can be safe. IT is the same thing. Your choice for vaccinating may also contribute to others getting ill, without you being aware of it.
> 
> I don't know...the whole thing just doesn't seem right. What happened to preventing disease with making our immune systems stronger the right way. Like I said I am not anti vax but you can't avoid a whole group of innocent children, who are probably very healthy because you fear something that they "MAY" spread to your child, if in the chance they actually get it to begin with.
> 
> I'm sorry. Don't want to steer your thread into another debate.
> 
> I am also looking into a day care for my son. I don't think my child should fear the un-vaccinated. He eats healthy, takes his vitamins and gets plenty of sunshine. He knows to wash his hands etc etc....of course he is not immune, I know that anything can happen but I would feel wrong to support any day care that is discriminating against people free choice, especially if they made an informed decision and do not agree with the "science"backing vaccines. I know people personally that were devastated with the effects Vax had on their children. ITs a scary thing, you almost are paralyzed and don't know what to do when you hear those stories. Anyways, do what is best for your child.
> 
> Good luck to you.Click to expand...

All the healthy eating, hand washing, vitamins and sunshine in the world won't stop someone from catching measles if they are exposed to it and not immune. Its highly contagious. 

There is no debate, amongst people who are actually educated on the subject, about how safe and/or effective vaccines are. The (extremely small) risks of vaccines are well known and documented and explained, just like with medications that have risks and side effects. Those risks, for the vast majority of people, are much much less than the benefits. Its only people who are allergic to ingredients (for instance eggs) or who are too immune-compromised that face bigger risk than reward.


----------



## Larkspur

JleStar said:


> MarineWAG said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JleStar said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MarineWAG said:
> 
> 
> Yeah who needs vaccinations anyway let's get back to the days of letting our own immune systems deal with deadly disease, vaccines are probably just making our society weaker and too big, let's go back to the days of no intervention, let's let Darwinism decide who should survive into adulthood.
> 
> Listen there is a lot of debate whether we are trading in one "deadly" disease for another.
> Again, this is ALL debatable. Even the claims that these vaccines took out these terrible diseases is a fallacy according to some info I read out there, by Dr.'s, scientists, not lay people.
> *Being fully vaccinated*, I still can't help but read ALL of the information and watch all of the documentaries out there funded by and NOT funded by corps and I am left feeling confused. IS there ANY validity in what they are claiming? I am not one to turn around and close my eyes to all information people around the world are presenting. Do you really think it is some big conspiracy, either way???? It doesn't add up..Something is wrong here and people need to wake up on both sides. I Don't want these wild infectious diseases but I also don't want life long auto-immune diseases and a big question mark of other ailments that I may never link back to vaccines.
> 
> There are *claims *of type 1 diabetes, among many other auto-immune diseases, cancer, yes and even autism...please don't tell me that that was debunked because it "was" debunked but now that DR. in question is being vindicated....(forgive me for my analogy) But I liken it to someone being accused and convicted of murder, a fire storm of media covering it, People saying "Yea I knew he did it! Die MF!" then many years later a small mention of that same person being innocent because of recent evidence found....you rarely here of the stories in the after math but it happens, you see what I mean, there is a lot of information. I can't see how any one can be soooo pro-vax or sooo anti--vaxxx, I for one am still confused on the whole issue. I really am....sorry to come in here with my confusion. I guess it is my problem to sort. I just wish all of us had the same problem, I still don't get it. If you see both sides of the coin they contradict one another, so what is it? Who is right? Why hasn't this debate been resolved? Where are all the studies that test vax vs. un-vax??? I want to see those so I can feel better about the decision I felt forced to make.
> 
> Again, I hate doing this to myself. These talk makes me nauseated, but don't worry I am just some "crazy" citizen of this world looking for clear cut answers on an important topic. I must be a whack job, selfish and a conspiracy theorist. No, seriously forget about everything that I said. Maybe when we are all in old age home at the ripe age of 90 (if we make it that far :) We can have this boring, sickening debate again. In due time all things are revealed..hopefully I will not suffer for the choices I have made.
> 
> Good luck to all and God Bless, seriously mean it. I have nothing but love for my fellow mamas out there who are trying desperately to protect their little cubs. It can be a scary world.Click to expand...
> 
> There is no debate in the context you state, there are conspiracy theories, big difference. Saying that because some uneducated people (I'm not using that as a blow, I too am uneducated on the matter hence listening to those qualified to know about it) out there scaremonger with their inaccurate and unfounded theories on the Internet has created a "debate" on the issue is incorrect.Click to expand...
> 
> I disagree..there certainly is debate. And please stop calling someone elses view point a conspiracy theory. I just detest that. Say that to the child who was vaccine injured and compensated by the government for being damaged by a vaccine.
> 
> Also...They are educated. I am still listening to the so called experts who are doctors and scientists on both sides, who have studies to suggest other wise. Forget it. Just my decision to makeClick to expand...

But there is only one conspiracy theory in the so-called "debate" (see, you can put quote-marks around anything to make it seem dubious).

Nobody is suggesting anti-vaxxers have gotten together and conspired to fraudulently make claims of vaccine reactions in order to make money. There's no question that vaccine reactions, even severe ones, happen. But that is fully acknowledged by the medical profession.

On the other hand, anti-vaxxers regularly accuse the medical industry (and I guess governmental systems must be implicit too) of a vast conspiracy to sell vaccines that are worse than useless to an unquestioning public for the sole purpose of making money.

I agree it can be confusing, but I also read a lot on both sides when I was researching vaccines, and it became quickly evident to me that when you start following links on stories, and fact-checking claims, the anti-vaxx side collapses pretty thoroughly.

I suspect objection to these sorts of playgroups on the grounds of discrimination is not actually due to some belief about human rights, but about anti-vaxxers understanding deep down that once you start dividing society into clear groups of vaccinated vs unvaccinated people, it will become brutally evident exactly how well vaccination works.


----------



## justmeinlove

Here you go, to the confused person. Lots of links that should help.
https://www.iflscience.com/health-and-medicine/dear-parents-you-are-being-lied


----------



## catty

I suspect objection to these sorts of playgroups on the grounds of discrimination is not actually due to some belief about human rights, but about anti-vaxxers understanding deep down that once you start dividing society into clear groups of vaccinated vs unvaccinated people, it will become brutally evident exactly how well vaccination works.[/QUOTE]

wow yes when you put it like that. this exactly.
I personally think if one of my children had a severe reaction to a vaccine I would be worried about giving the other ones but some of these diseases are so brutal the thought of leaving my child open to getting it isnt worth thinking.

anyway I ament particularly for or against this type of playgroup. I really dont think the vaccine 'trend' seems to be going on where I am. everyone I have spoken to, meet with have had it.


----------



## Midnight_Fairy

Have not noticed a trend either. I know 2 people who delayed them and none who opted out x


----------



## JleStar

justmeinlove said:


> Here you go, to the confused person. Lots of links that should help.
> https://www.iflscience.com/health-and-medicine/dear-parents-you-are-being-lied

thanks, looked at it. Still confused. When clicking on each link I found myself again not trusting what is being said because the other side does have evidence other wise. 
Thanks for trying.
I will look more into your link again. Maybe I need a break from this topic. 

I wish there was a national vaccine debate. A fair one, where both sides look at all the evidence and DEBATE. 
Better yet, like you all said. Let the anti-vax kids and vaxed kids both have opportunities for education but be placed in different classroom and see if there is any difference health wise. I think that would be interesting and finally put to rest this debate. Why hasn't that been done before? With all the money they make. seriously why couldn't they do that kind of study? 

I know you are all pro-vaxers but are you also pro choice for parents making medical decisions for their own children? Or is vaccination something that you should give up your civil liberties to do?
Just curious

God bless


----------



## lau86

A lot of people would see debating about it as unnecessary, the disease they're vaccinating against used to kill people, and quite horribly. The vaccines were brought in and the diseases went away. That's good enough for most people. Thankfully in our life we don't see much or any of measles, polio, diphtheria but my view is that the anti vacc movement ride on the fact that we all vaccinate our kids and keep levels down. I'm trying to help but you don't seem to know what you're looking for?


----------



## Pearls18

I honestly don't get what there is to be so confused about I really don't.


----------



## sue_88

Same. There is no need for any sort of debate. Can't help but think these conspiracy theories are just all born out of the U.S, too many people there just think the whole government and corporate Giants are out to get them.

I wish the people so recklessly refusing vaccinations (JleStar: I know you are not one) could swap places with those in the third world who are so desperate for them they'd give anything.


----------



## Larkspur

JleStar said:


> Better yet, like you all said. Let the anti-vax kids and vaxed kids both have opportunities for education but be placed in different classroom and see if there is any difference health wise. I think that would be interesting and finally put to rest this debate. Why hasn't that been done before? With all the money they make. seriously why couldn't they do that kind of study?

Given the amount of evidence that exists that vaccines offer considerable protection, any institutional body would regard that as a totally unethical experiment. If you wanted it to be an experiment about disease resistance, you would have to expose both groups to the diseases, and we already know clearly that the unvaccinated children would be at high risk of serious illness or death.

Or are you suggesting that you'd just put children in different classrooms for a few years and see if it makes any difference? There would be far too many uncontrolled variables to make that an effective experiment.

As for personal choice in this matter, I actually do think you should need a medical exemption, not a personal beliefs exemption, if you choose not to vaccinate but want to use public health and education facilities.


----------



## justmeinlove

Yeah, I imagine the problem with doing separate classrooms would be that it would be astonishingly unethical!


----------



## felix555

JleStar said:


> justmeinlove said:
> 
> 
> Here you go, to the confused person. Lots of links that should help.
> https://www.iflscience.com/health-and-medicine/dear-parents-you-are-being-lied
> 
> thanks, looked at it. Still confused. When clicking on each link I found myself again not trusting what is being said because the other side does have evidence other wise.
> Thanks for trying.
> I will look more into your link again. Maybe I need a break from this topic.
> 
> I wish there was a national vaccine debate. A fair one, where both sides look at all the evidence and DEBATE.
> Better yet, like you all said. *Let the anti-vax kids and vaxed kids both have opportunities for education but be placed in different classroom and see if there is any difference health wise*. I think that would be interesting and finally put to rest this debate. Why hasn't that been done before? With all the money they make. seriously why couldn't they do that kind of study?
> 
> I know you are all pro-vaxers but are you also pro choice for parents making medical decisions for their own children? Or is vaccination something that you should give up your civil liberties to do?
> Just curious
> 
> God blessClick to expand...

Would you really place your child in a class with absolutely zero herd immunity? Then you are claiming these vaccinations have no benefit at all? 

I think a lot of the anti-vaxxers enjoy the benefit of herd immunity it's exactly the reason they can be against vaccinations, small risk. I think some of them would change their stance if the risk of catching diseases increased massively. Of course I am excluding those that CAN'T be vaccinated. 

Also are you in the US? In the UK we get "free" vaccinations paid for by the government, if they were unnecessary then they government would have done millions of studies to prove how useless they are so they wouldn't have to waste money on them?


----------



## AnneD

felix555 said:


> I think a lot of the anti-vaxxers enjoy the benefit of herd immunity it's exactly the reason they can be against vaccinations, small risk. I think some of them would change their stance if the risk of catching diseases increased massively. Of course I am excluding those that CAN'T be vaccinated.

Agree completely. This is what annoys me most about anti-vaxxers and people who delay just for the sake of it, I think, and the whole selfishness of it.


----------



## misspriss

felix555 said:


> Would you really place your child in a class with absolutely zero herd immunity? Then you are claiming these vaccinations have no benefit at all?
> 
> I think a lot of the anti-vaxxers enjoy the benefit of herd immunity it's exactly the reason they can be against vaccinations, small risk. I think some of them would change their stance if the risk of catching diseases increased massively. Of course I am excluding those that CAN'T be vaccinated.
> 
> Also are you in the US? In the UK we get "free" vaccinations paid for by the government, if they were unnecessary then they government would have done millions of studies to prove how useless they are so they wouldn't have to waste money on them?

I wouldn't mind it, it is how I grew up (okay, I was homeschooled). I plan to homeschool my kids as well, so the whole school will be non-vaxx. It wouldn't really bother me. I don't see myself as "bumming off of" other people's herd immunity, ie I wouldn't change my vaccination ideas if less people were vaccinated (and thus no "herd").


----------



## felix555

misspriss said:


> felix555 said:
> 
> 
> Would you really place your child in a class with absolutely zero herd immunity? Then you are claiming these vaccinations have no benefit at all?
> 
> I think a lot of the anti-vaxxers enjoy the benefit of herd immunity it's exactly the reason they can be against vaccinations, small risk. I think some of them would change their stance if the risk of catching diseases increased massively. Of course I am excluding those that CAN'T be vaccinated.
> 
> Also are you in the US? In the UK we get "free" vaccinations paid for by the government, if they were unnecessary then they government would have done millions of studies to prove how useless they are so they wouldn't have to waste money on them?
> 
> 
> I wouldn't mind it, it is how I grew up (okay, I was homeschooled). I plan to homeschool my kids as well, so the whole school will be non-vaxx. It wouldn't really bother me. I don't see myself as "bumming off of" other people's herd immunity, ie I wouldn't change my vaccination ideas if less people were vaccinated (and thus no "herd").Click to expand...

So something like meningitis does not scare you at all? An outbreak of it would not phase you and you would just hope your child's immune system would fight it off? I mean despite it being potentially fatal?

Just curious how if you're anti vaxx you think of the what ifs.


----------



## misspriss

felix555 said:


> misspriss said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> felix555 said:
> 
> 
> Would you really place your child in a class with absolutely zero herd immunity? Then you are claiming these vaccinations have no benefit at all?
> 
> I think a lot of the anti-vaxxers enjoy the benefit of herd immunity it's exactly the reason they can be against vaccinations, small risk. I think some of them would change their stance if the risk of catching diseases increased massively. Of course I am excluding those that CAN'T be vaccinated.
> 
> Also are you in the US? In the UK we get "free" vaccinations paid for by the government, if they were unnecessary then they government would have done millions of studies to prove how useless they are so they wouldn't have to waste money on them?
> 
> 
> I wouldn't mind it, it is how I grew up (okay, I was homeschooled). I plan to homeschool my kids as well, so the whole school will be non-vaxx. It wouldn't really bother me. I don't see myself as "bumming off of" other people's herd immunity, ie I wouldn't change my vaccination ideas if less people were vaccinated (and thus no "herd").Click to expand...
> 
> So something like meningitis does not scare you at all? An outbreak of it would not phase you and you would just hope your child's immune system would fight it off? I mean despite it being potentially fatal?
> 
> Just curious how if you're anti vaxx you think of the what ifs.Click to expand...

Of course I worry about what ifs, but life is full of what ifs. We are at much greater risk of a car accident, ,per se, but I don't stop driving in cars.

Considering the menignitis vaccine was not added to the schedule until 2005, I suppose I consider my children's risk about the same as mine was when I was unvaccinated, or any child (including myself) born prior to 2003 or so.

I would worry about any outbreak, and take precautions such as keeping my child away from places where it may spread, washing hands frequently, carefully monitoring for signs of infection, etc. Basically do what people did before 2005. Or do for any illness there isn't a "jab" for.

ETA: For example, I consider the "what ifs" of a vaccine reaction, apparently those worry me more than the "what if" odds of catching a disease.


----------



## Kitteh_Kat

felix555 said:


> I think a lot of the anti-vaxxers enjoy the benefit of herd immunity it's exactly the reason they can be against vaccinations, small risk. I think some of them would change their stance if the risk of catching diseases increased massively. Of course I am excluding those that CAN'T be vaccinated.

Some of them already have! (at least after some of them start catching a disease)

https://thinkprogress.org/health/2013/08/27/2532651/measles-outbreak-texas-megachurch/


----------



## veganmama

felix555 said:


> JleStar said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> justmeinlove said:
> 
> 
> Here you go, to the confused person. Lots of links that should help.
> https://www.iflscience.com/health-and-medicine/dear-parents-you-are-being-lied
> 
> thanks, looked at it. Still confused. When clicking on each link I found myself again not trusting what is being said because the other side does have evidence other wise.
> Thanks for trying.
> I will look more into your link again. Maybe I need a break from this topic.
> 
> I wish there was a national vaccine debate. A fair one, where both sides look at all the evidence and DEBATE.
> Better yet, like you all said. *Let the anti-vax kids and vaxed kids both have opportunities for education but be placed in different classroom and see if there is any difference health wise*. I think that would be interesting and finally put to rest this debate. Why hasn't that been done before? With all the money they make. seriously why couldn't they do that kind of study?
> 
> I know you are all pro-vaxers but are you also pro choice for parents making medical decisions for their own children? Or is vaccination something that you should give up your civil liberties to do?
> Just curious
> 
> God blessClick to expand...
> 
> Would you really place your child in a class with absolutely zero herd immunity? Then you are claiming these vaccinations have no benefit at all?
> 
> I think a lot of the anti-vaxxers enjoy the benefit of herd immunity it's exactly the reason they can be against vaccinations, small risk. I think some of them would change their stance if the risk of catching diseases increased massively. Of course I am excluding those that CAN'T be vaccinated.
> 
> Also are you in the US? In the UK we get "free" vaccinations paid for by the government, if they were unnecessary then they government would have done millions of studies to prove how useless they are so they wouldn't have to waste money on them?Click to expand...

the government doesnt pay for your child's vaccines, they are paid for through your taxes. which is why UK and Canada have higher taxes than USA


----------



## hayz_baby

veganmama said:


> felix555 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JleStar said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> justmeinlove said:
> 
> 
> Here you go, to the confused person. Lots of links that should help.
> https://www.iflscience.com/health-and-medicine/dear-parents-you-are-being-lied
> 
> thanks, looked at it. Still confused. When clicking on each link I found myself again not trusting what is being said because the other side does have evidence other wise.
> Thanks for trying.
> I will look more into your link again. Maybe I need a break from this topic.
> 
> I wish there was a national vaccine debate. A fair one, where both sides look at all the evidence and DEBATE.
> Better yet, like you all said. *Let the anti-vax kids and vaxed kids both have opportunities for education but be placed in different classroom and see if there is any difference health wise*. I think that would be interesting and finally put to rest this debate. Why hasn't that been done before? With all the money they make. seriously why couldn't they do that kind of study?
> 
> I know you are all pro-vaxers but are you also pro choice for parents making medical decisions for their own children? Or is vaccination something that you should give up your civil liberties to do?
> Just curious
> 
> God blessClick to expand...
> 
> Would you really place your child in a class with absolutely zero herd immunity? Then you are claiming these vaccinations have no benefit at all?
> 
> I think a lot of the anti-vaxxers enjoy the benefit of herd immunity it's exactly the reason they can be against vaccinations, small risk. I think some of them would change their stance if the risk of catching diseases increased massively. Of course I am excluding those that CAN'T be vaccinated.
> 
> Also are you in the US? In the UK we get "free" vaccinations paid for by the government, if they were unnecessary then they government would have done millions of studies to prove how useless they are so they wouldn't have to waste money on them?Click to expand...
> 
> the government doesnt pay for your child's vaccines, they are paid for through your taxes. which is why UK and Canada have higher taxes than USAClick to expand...

But we don't pay ridiculous amounts in healthcare insurance. 

The companies get a fixed price no matter what really and like an op said with so many austerity cuts in this country if it could be justified it would be cut. 
The men b jab is over a yr overdue because Jeremy hunt wasnt happy with the price


----------



## Pearls18

veganmama said:


> felix555 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JleStar said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> justmeinlove said:
> 
> 
> Here you go, to the confused person. Lots of links that should help.
> https://www.iflscience.com/health-and-medicine/dear-parents-you-are-being-lied
> 
> thanks, looked at it. Still confused. When clicking on each link I found myself again not trusting what is being said because the other side does have evidence other wise.
> Thanks for trying.
> I will look more into your link again. Maybe I need a break from this topic.
> 
> I wish there was a national vaccine debate. A fair one, where both sides look at all the evidence and DEBATE.
> Better yet, like you all said. *Let the anti-vax kids and vaxed kids both have opportunities for education but be placed in different classroom and see if there is any difference health wise*. I think that would be interesting and finally put to rest this debate. Why hasn't that been done before? With all the money they make. seriously why couldn't they do that kind of study?
> 
> I know you are all pro-vaxers but are you also pro choice for parents making medical decisions for their own children? Or is vaccination something that you should give up your civil liberties to do?
> Just curious
> 
> God blessClick to expand...
> 
> Would you really place your child in a class with absolutely zero herd immunity? Then you are claiming these vaccinations have no benefit at all?
> 
> I think a lot of the anti-vaxxers enjoy the benefit of herd immunity it's exactly the reason they can be against vaccinations, small risk. I think some of them would change their stance if the risk of catching diseases increased massively. Of course I am excluding those that CAN'T be vaccinated.
> 
> Also are you in the US? In the UK we get "free" vaccinations paid for by the government, if they were unnecessary then they government would have done millions of studies to prove how useless they are so they wouldn't have to waste money on them?Click to expand...
> 
> the government doesnt pay for your child's vaccines, they are paid for through your taxes. which is why UK and Canada have higher taxes than USAClick to expand...

Felix's point is that the government has to decide how to allocate money, when they support a state healthcare system (with taxes) they have to make decisions as to what is most cost effective thus they wouldn't pay millions out in a wide spread vaccination programme if it didn't eventually save them money vs managing the symptoms of disease. I totally get suspicion of the government in the U.S., I'd feel like it too if I lived in a country that my government supported pharmaceutical companies more than its citizens, but look at countries that have state health care like the U.S. and Canada and it makes more sense. I'm not naive enough to think that there isn't pressure on our own government when it comes to pharma, but know that with running something like the NHS it would never be the scale it is somewhere like the U.S. Where the whole insurance/medical system is so corrupt I can't believe there hasn't been a revolution. Probably because you're all told our taxes are ridiculously high....


----------



## felix555

veganmama said:


> felix555 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JleStar said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> justmeinlove said:
> 
> 
> Here you go, to the confused person. Lots of links that should help.
> https://www.iflscience.com/health-and-medicine/dear-parents-you-are-being-lied
> 
> thanks, looked at it. Still confused. When clicking on each link I found myself again not trusting what is being said because the other side does have evidence other wise.
> Thanks for trying.
> I will look more into your link again. Maybe I need a break from this topic.
> 
> I wish there was a national vaccine debate. A fair one, where both sides look at all the evidence and DEBATE.
> Better yet, like you all said. *Let the anti-vax kids and vaxed kids both have opportunities for education but be placed in different classroom and see if there is any difference health wise*. I think that would be interesting and finally put to rest this debate. Why hasn't that been done before? With all the money they make. seriously why couldn't they do that kind of study?
> 
> I know you are all pro-vaxers but are you also pro choice for parents making medical decisions for their own children? Or is vaccination something that you should give up your civil liberties to do?
> Just curious
> 
> God blessClick to expand...
> 
> Would you really place your child in a class with absolutely zero herd immunity? Then you are claiming these vaccinations have no benefit at all?
> 
> I think a lot of the anti-vaxxers enjoy the benefit of herd immunity it's exactly the reason they can be against vaccinations, small risk. I think some of them would change their stance if the risk of catching diseases increased massively. Of course I am excluding those that CAN'T be vaccinated.
> 
> Also are you in the US? In the UK we get "free" vaccinations paid for by the government, if they were unnecessary then they government would have done millions of studies to prove how useless they are so they wouldn't have to waste money on them?Click to expand...
> 
> the government doesnt pay for your child's vaccines, they are paid for through your taxes. which is why UK and Canada have higher taxes than USAClick to expand...

I realise this, which is why I put "free"


----------



## felix555

misspriss said:


> felix555 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> misspriss said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> felix555 said:
> 
> 
> Would you really place your child in a class with absolutely zero herd immunity? Then you are claiming these vaccinations have no benefit at all?
> 
> I think a lot of the anti-vaxxers enjoy the benefit of herd immunity it's exactly the reason they can be against vaccinations, small risk. I think some of them would change their stance if the risk of catching diseases increased massively. Of course I am excluding those that CAN'T be vaccinated.
> 
> Also are you in the US? In the UK we get "free" vaccinations paid for by the government, if they were unnecessary then they government would have done millions of studies to prove how useless they are so they wouldn't have to waste money on them?
> 
> 
> I wouldn't mind it, it is how I grew up (okay, I was homeschooled). I plan to homeschool my kids as well, so the whole school will be non-vaxx. It wouldn't really bother me. I don't see myself as "bumming off of" other people's herd immunity, ie I wouldn't change my vaccination ideas if less people were vaccinated (and thus no "herd").Click to expand...
> 
> So something like meningitis does not scare you at all? An outbreak of it would not phase you and you would just hope your child's immune system would fight it off? I mean despite it being potentially fatal?
> 
> Just curious how if you're anti vaxx you think of the what ifs.Click to expand...
> 
> *Of course I worry about what ifs, but life is full of what ifs. We are at much greater risk of a car accident, ,per se, but I don't stop driving in cars.*
> 
> Considering the menignitis vaccine was not added to the schedule until 2005, I suppose I consider my children's risk about the same as mine was when I was unvaccinated, or any child (including myself) born prior to 2003 or so.
> 
> I would worry about any outbreak, and take precautions such as keeping my child away from places where it may spread, washing hands frequently, carefully monitoring for signs of infection, etc. Basically do what people did before 2005. Or do for any illness there isn't a "jab" for.
> 
> ETA: For example, I consider the "what ifs" of a vaccine reaction, apparently those worry me more than the "what if" odds of catching a disease.Click to expand...

Not in the UK. I have quoted the stats for it before but more children die of meningitis every year than car accidents. Lots more.


----------



## Pearls18

felix555 said:


> misspriss said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> felix555 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> misspriss said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> felix555 said:
> 
> 
> Would you really place your child in a class with absolutely zero herd immunity? Then you are claiming these vaccinations have no benefit at all?
> 
> I think a lot of the anti-vaxxers enjoy the benefit of herd immunity it's exactly the reason they can be against vaccinations, small risk. I think some of them would change their stance if the risk of catching diseases increased massively. Of course I am excluding those that CAN'T be vaccinated.
> 
> Also are you in the US? In the UK we get "free" vaccinations paid for by the government, if they were unnecessary then they government would have done millions of studies to prove how useless they are so they wouldn't have to waste money on them?
> 
> 
> I wouldn't mind it, it is how I grew up (okay, I was homeschooled). I plan to homeschool my kids as well, so the whole school will be non-vaxx. It wouldn't really bother me. I don't see myself as "bumming off of" other people's herd immunity, ie I wouldn't change my vaccination ideas if less people were vaccinated (and thus no "herd").Click to expand...
> 
> So something like meningitis does not scare you at all? An outbreak of it would not phase you and you would just hope your child's immune system would fight it off? I mean despite it being potentially fatal?
> 
> Just curious how if you're anti vaxx you think of the what ifs.Click to expand...
> 
> *Of course I worry about what ifs, but life is full of what ifs. We are at much greater risk of a car accident, ,per se, but I don't stop driving in cars.*
> 
> Considering the menignitis vaccine was not added to the schedule until 2005, I suppose I consider my children's risk about the same as mine was when I was unvaccinated, or any child (including myself) born prior to 2003 or so.
> 
> I would worry about any outbreak, and take precautions such as keeping my child away from places where it may spread, washing hands frequently, carefully monitoring for signs of infection, etc. Basically do what people did before 2005. Or do for any illness there isn't a "jab" for.
> 
> ETA: For example, I consider the "what ifs" of a vaccine reaction, apparently those worry me more than the "what if" odds of catching a disease.Click to expand...
> 
> Not in the UK. I have quoted the stats for it before but more children die of meningitis every year than car accidents. Lots more.Click to expand...

This is why we put our children in car seats that are put through rigorous safety tests, to reduce the risks in an accident. A vaccination is exactly the same thing, alleviate, hopefully eradicate, the chance of meningitis.

A big part of parenting is risk management, but with the statistics available not vaccinating when you have no medical reason not to is just gambling with the child's health. And getting back to the point of the thread I guess that is what the nursery is doing, risk management in the best interests of the children who attend whether we agree or not.


----------



## kirstybumx3

This has been an interesting read. I don't have anything to add because honestly I don't know much about the reasons for not vaccinating at all. I will always give my child the vaccinations he needs to reduce the risk of fatality. And he had a reaction to his first ever set too. 
I sort of feel like its similar to for example not putting a helmet on your child when he rides a bike because of "what ifs". He's more likely to get run over by a car or something than fall and crush his skull so whatever let's forget the helmet. :/
I'd love to hear more from anti vaxxers. Or even a link so I could learn more about why these people choose not to...


----------



## jogami

.


----------



## Zephram

I feel like most anti-vaxxers have lost perspective and have forgotten the reason that we vaccinate. 

Since vaccination has made all these horrible diseases much less prevalent and really quite rare in some parts of the world, many people have forgotten to 'fear' them. They've forgotten that these are very deadly diseases that killed thousands of people every year and in the case of some diseases caused chronic problems in many others who survived the acute disease. They've overlooked or ignored the countless number of lives saved due to vaccination. 

Take measles for example: 2.6 million deaths worldwide in 1980. 93,000 deaths worldwide in 2013. That's actually a difference in millions of lives saved because of vaccination.


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## jogami

Vaccinate. End of.
 



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## misspriss

I answered the question as to if I'd send kids to a vaccinated only preschool/daycare, which is what this post is about. If people want to debate vaccination, there is a thread on the debate board about it which would be a more appropriate place for that debate.


----------



## Wriggley

I dont really understand why you wouldnt vaccine though? is it down to reaction? because there are cases where children have reacted? because if so do you decline any form of medical assistance? because there is a chance of reacting to ANYTHING. it just dont seem like a real reason to not vaxx :shrug: I honestly just think its something that some people see as a bit of a 'fashion trend'


----------



## misspriss

Wriggley said:


> I dont really understand why you wouldnt vaccine though? is it down to reaction? because there are cases where children have reacted? because if so do you decline any form of medical assistance? because there is a chance of reacting to ANYTHING. it just dont seem like a real reason to not vaxx :shrug: I honestly just think its something that some people see as a bit of a 'fashion trend'

I posted in the debate thread about some of my reasoning. It's not a "trend", as my children are second generation non-vaxx'd (meaning my parents made the choice not to vaccinate me or my siblings).

ETA: vaccination carries risk. If I allow someone to inject a substance into my body or my child's body, I am accepting that risk. I am not comfortable with that risk. Not vaccinating carries risk that my child may (not likely, just may) contract a disease, and IF they contract the disease, there is a risk (not guarantee, just a risk) they have complications, the likelihood is that they will recover and retain natural immunity. That is IF they contract a disease. Injecting them is something done for sure, guaranteed risk. Not vaccinating is just a risk of _getting a risk_.


----------



## Wriggley

misspriss said:


> Wriggley said:
> 
> 
> I dont really understand why you wouldnt vaccine though? is it down to reaction? because there are cases where children have reacted? because if so do you decline any form of medical assistance? because there is a chance of reacting to ANYTHING. it just dont seem like a real reason to not vaxx :shrug: I honestly just think its something that some people see as a bit of a 'fashion trend'
> 
> I posted in the debate thread about some of my reasoning. It's not a "trend", as my children are second generation non-vaxx'd (meaning my parents made the choice not to vaccinate me or my siblings).
> 
> ETA: vaccination carries risk. If I allow someone to inject a substance into my body or my child's body, I am accepting that risk. I am not comfortable with that risk. Not vaccinating carries risk that my child may (not likely, just may) contract a disease, and IF they contract the disease, there is a risk (not guarantee, just a risk) they have complications, the likelihood is that they will recover and retain natural immunity. That is IF they contract a disease. Injecting them is something done for sure, guaranteed risk. Not vaccinating is just a risk of _getting a risk_.Click to expand...

thank you for the response i guess its one of those things that i just cant understand myself. 

surely your still 'garanteeing' a risk by not vaccinating eg... allowing your children to be able to contract the diseases 

^^ i dont mean that in a bitchy way i couldnt think of another way to word it :blush:


----------



## Natsku

There is very little risk with vaccination though, for the vast majority of people. Whereas the risk of catching one of the diseases is growing now that vaccination rates are dropping. And even just having one of those diseases, without complications, is a lot worse than the majority of vaccine reactions (fever, sore arm/leg at injection site, which are what most bad reactions consist of)

Getting immunity without getting ill sure beats the old fashioned way.


----------



## misspriss

Wriggley said:


> misspriss said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wriggley said:
> 
> 
> I dont really understand why you wouldnt vaccine though? is it down to reaction? because there are cases where children have reacted? because if so do you decline any form of medical assistance? because there is a chance of reacting to ANYTHING. it just dont seem like a real reason to not vaxx :shrug: I honestly just think its something that some people see as a bit of a 'fashion trend'
> 
> I posted in the debate thread about some of my reasoning. It's not a "trend", as my children are second generation non-vaxx'd (meaning my parents made the choice not to vaccinate me or my siblings).
> 
> ETA: vaccination carries risk. If I allow someone to inject a substance into my body or my child's body, I am accepting that risk. I am not comfortable with that risk. Not vaccinating carries risk that my child may (not likely, just may) contract a disease, and IF they contract the disease, there is a risk (not guarantee, just a risk) they have complications, the likelihood is that they will recover and retain natural immunity. That is IF they contract a disease. Injecting them is something done for sure, guaranteed risk. Not vaccinating is just a risk of _getting a risk_.Click to expand...
> 
> thank you for the response i guess its one of those things that i just cant understand myself.
> 
> surely your still 'garanteeing' a risk by not vaccinating eg... allowing your children to be able to contract the diseases
> 
> ^^ i dont mean that in a bitchy way i couldnt think of another way to word it :blush:Click to expand...

Not really, I'm 27, I'm not vaccinated, and I've had chicken pox only. No flu, no measles, no whooping cough, none of it. It's not guaranteed. 

I think it is different here, there are many more outbreaks in the UK, it is a much more guaranteed risk there I suppose. I don't think it would change my mind though.

Yes, the risks with vaccines are small, but tell that to someone who has been vaccine damaged. Just look at the vaccine court payouts just in the US (where you get recourse since you can't sue the vaccine manufactures if your child is killed/permanently disabled). I don't have links because I'm not here to prove to you why I believe what I believe, just wanted to put that out there. I'm _not talking about_ fever, sore arm, feel off for a few days type reactions. I'm talking seizures, brain damage, permanent disability.

Parents have to make decisions about the risks they are willing to accept. I suppose I feel I have more experience to make that decision, since I have lived 27 years without a vaccine-available disease (except chicken pox, which isn't even vaccinated for in the UK), I don't see it as a big risk my kids will get it. I don't feel like I'm being ignorant of the risks, I live the risks and have my whole life. In fact, with the exeption of the flu, neither of my non-vaxx'd siblings have ever gotten anything. And I don't think anyone here is talking about how great the flu vaccine works.


----------



## Wriggley

I have just popped into that thread in the debate section and It really just baffles me.

There is a small risk of a reaction from a vaccine

the risk of catching one of these diseases is increasing due to the growing number of people not getting their children vaccinated which to me says that your children are at a HIGHER risk of catching the disease. does that not worry you? 

I also dont understand why anyone would be comfortable adding risk to those who are already at a higher risk of contracting these diseases... those with compromised immune systems, those who cant be vaxxed. I do find it shocking how people make this decision with no regard to the people around them. I find that very sad :(


----------



## Pearls18

You just need to ask yourself misspriss why it is you've managed so long without catching one of these diseases and why you don't have to live in fear of your children catching them, and then think what would happen if everyone took your view, but on behalf of all the so called vaxxers, you're welcome.


----------



## misspriss

Wriggley said:


> I have just popped into that thread in the debate section and It really just baffles me.
> 
> There is a small risk of a reaction from a vaccine
> 
> the risk of catching one of these diseases is increasing due to the growing number of people not getting their children vaccinated which to me says that your children are at a HIGHER risk of catching the disease. does that not worry you?
> 
> I also dont understand why anyone would be comfortable adding risk to those who are already at a higher risk of contracting these diseases... those with compromised immune systems, those who cant be vaxxed. I do find it shocking how people make this decision with no regard to the people around them. I find that very sad :(

My children don't attend daycare, nursery, preschool, etc. They don't have frequent close contact with other children. Considering most adults are not fully vaccinated (due to vaccines waning), my child presents no more risk at the grocery store than any other person to an immunocompromised person. 

I'm not going to put my child at risk that I would not put them at normally for an unlikely change they will come in close contact with someone immuncompromised. 



MarineWAG said:


> You just need to ask yourself misspriss why it is you've managed so long without catching one of these diseases and why you don't have to live in fear of your children catching them, and then think what would happen if everyone took your view, but on behalf of all the so called vaxxers, you're welcome.

Believe that if you will, I was homeschooled, I did not attend daycare or preschool. I wasn't around other kids regularly until high school. Considering homeschool is a prime environment for non-vaxx'ing, I'm pretty sure a lot of the kids I did come in contact with were non-vaxx'd as well. When I was younger, I spent more time with adults (who were probably not vaccinated much at all a generation ago) than in close contact with other children.

I live in a rural state, in the city, but still a rural state. The culture is much different than most of the people on this board are familiar with. We lived in single family homes with acres of land around us growing up. We don't use public transport, because it doesn't exist. We don't ride in taxis. We just don't have the same close contact that I think is part of daily life for people in the UK.

How do you think I've gone my whole life without contracting the flu, as common as it is (and how dismal the flu vaccine success rates are)?


----------



## Pearls18

No you're right, I really don't relate to that lifestyle at all.


----------



## misspriss

MarineWAG said:


> No you're right, I really don't relate to that lifestyle at all.

That being said, even if I lived somewhere with more contact, I don't think it would change my ideas about vaccination. I might be a lot more worried though.

Even vacations, we couldn't afford to go to Disneyland or some such (where you might get the measles nowdays!) we spent our vacations at state parks, camping, hiking, swimming, etc. I would say we had a greater risk of getting rabies from a wild animal than getting measles from someone who had traveled internationally recently. 

We did see other children, like at church and stuff, but not the same close contact I think most people associate with spreading disease frequently.


----------



## Pearls18

You don't need close contact to spread measles, that's why when there's an outbreak it spreads very quickly, Swansea in the UK is a good example of that.

If rural simple living was a recipe for being disease free then the Europeans during the plague and native Americans when America was founded got very unlucky, those that lived rurally did not avoid the diseases.


----------



## misspriss

MarineWAG said:


> You don't need close contact to spread measles, that's why when there's an outbreak it spreads very quickly, Swansea in the UK is a good example of that.
> 
> If rural simple living was a recipe for being disease free then the Europeans during the plague and native Americans when America was founded got very unlucky, those that lived rurally did not avoid the diseases.

Because nothing else has changed about sanitation, cleanliness, and healthy immune systems since the founding of America. 

There have been no cases of measles in my state in the recent outbreak. I don't think measles is the ultimate death sentence, I think if my son got it, he would survive. I will worry more about my infant daughter when she is born, but again, no cases in my state.

This is why I said to take this to the debate forum, because that is what it is turning into. I offered my opinion on the subject of the thread (which is far lost), and everyone cried "please tell us why, we can't understand!" I was hesitant to share, because I knew this is what it would turn into. Your little comments are not going to change my mind, to guilt me into vaccinating for the sake of the "unvaccinatable". I don't care if you try and make me look stupid, I'm comfortable with my decision. 

Don't worry, your vaccinated (thus "safe"!) children will probably never, ever, ever in the world come near my children (or myself, being unvaccinated).


----------



## Pearls18

I've actually been to Arkansas and I don't want to assume where my children will go in the world just yet I hope they get to explore so I wouldn't ever assume who my children will or won't come across, so it's not out of the realms of possibility! Especially if we road trip it back to Ole Miss as I would like to lol.

I saw your post in the debate forum, there was nothing in there to reply to that I could be arsed to write or hasn't been said before, but I'd never seen rural living as a reason to be exempt from catching disease so merely pointing out that it wasn't that long ago that a much larger proportion of the population lived similarly and disease was rife, it's a fair point about medical and hygiene advancement though.


----------



## catty

is that not similar to saying - my friend has gone years not using protection and hasnt got pregnant yet I am a prime example who has gotten pregnant 1st time 3 times in a row. I just think saying 'well it didnt happen to me' certainly doesnt mean it wont happen to your child.


----------



## misspriss

You are both right. But as I stated before, I don't see most diseases as a death sentence for a healthy child. I guess that is a point at which we differ as well, everyone on here acts like a child will DIE if they catch the measles. Or whooping cough. Perhaps a small infant, which I admit does concern me, but I don't think multiple vaccines at a young age at the way to go.

Glad you've been to Arkansas MarineWAG, but I probably never came in contact with you, it's a big state ;) I will probably visit the UK at some point, but I have no expectation of meeting anyone I know, just way too many people!


----------



## Natsku

misspriss said:


> Wriggley said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> misspriss said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wriggley said:
> 
> 
> I dont really understand why you wouldnt vaccine though? is it down to reaction? because there are cases where children have reacted? because if so do you decline any form of medical assistance? because there is a chance of reacting to ANYTHING. it just dont seem like a real reason to not vaxx :shrug: I honestly just think its something that some people see as a bit of a 'fashion trend'
> 
> I posted in the debate thread about some of my reasoning. It's not a "trend", as my children are second generation non-vaxx'd (meaning my parents made the choice not to vaccinate me or my siblings).
> 
> ETA: vaccination carries risk. If I allow someone to inject a substance into my body or my child's body, I am accepting that risk. I am not comfortable with that risk. Not vaccinating carries risk that my child may (not likely, just may) contract a disease, and IF they contract the disease, there is a risk (not guarantee, just a risk) they have complications, the likelihood is that they will recover and retain natural immunity. That is IF they contract a disease. Injecting them is something done for sure, guaranteed risk. Not vaccinating is just a risk of _getting a risk_.Click to expand...
> 
> thank you for the response i guess its one of those things that i just cant understand myself.
> 
> surely your still 'garanteeing' a risk by not vaccinating eg... allowing your children to be able to contract the diseases
> 
> ^^ i dont mean that in a bitchy way i couldnt think of another way to word it :blush:Click to expand...
> 
> Not really, I'm 27, I'm not vaccinated, and I've had chicken pox only. No flu, no measles, no whooping cough, none of it. It's not guaranteed.
> 
> I think it is different here, there are many more outbreaks in the UK, it is a much more guaranteed risk there I suppose. I don't think it would change my mind though.
> 
> Yes, the risks with vaccines are small, but tell that to someone who has been vaccine damaged. Just look at the vaccine court payouts just in the US (where you get recourse since you can't sue the vaccine manufactures if your child is killed/permanently disabled). I don't have links because I'm not here to prove to you why I believe what I believe, just wanted to put that out there. I'm _not talking about_ fever, sore arm, feel off for a few days type reactions. I'm talking seizures, brain damage, permanent disability.
> 
> Parents have to make decisions about the risks they are willing to accept. I suppose I feel I have more experience to make that decision, since I have lived 27 years without a vaccine-available disease (except chicken pox, which isn't even vaccinated for in the UK), I don't see it as a big risk my kids will get it. I don't feel like I'm being ignorant of the risks, I live the risks and have my whole life. In fact, with the exeption of the flu, neither of my non-vaxx'd siblings have ever gotten anything. And I don't think anyone here is talking about how great the flu vaccine works.Click to expand...

People have been awarded payouts from the vaccine court even though there was no scientific evidence linking their problem to the vaccination. I would not advise basing your decisions on that.

The risk of seizures (except febrile seizures, which aren't dangerous and just come from a high temperature), brain damage, disability etc. are extremely low. The risk of catching one of the diseases is higher than the risk of a serious side effect.


----------



## Natsku

misspriss said:


> You are both right. But as I stated before, I don't see most diseases as a death sentence for a healthy child. I guess that is a point at which we differ as well, everyone on here acts like a child will DIE if they catch the measles. Or whooping cough. Perhaps a small infant, which I admit does concern me, but I don't think multiple vaccines at a young age at the way to go.
> 
> Glad you've been to Arkansas MarineWAG, but I probably never came in contact with you, it's a big state ;) I will probably visit the UK at some point, but I have no expectation of meeting anyone I know, just way too many people!

Even if your child doesn't die from measles its still a pretty horrid disease, and the risks of other complications are still much higher than the risk of having a bad reaction to a vaccine. People are just too far removed from reality these days - children died from measles, millions of them, its not something to be so unconcerned about. Would you vaccinate if there was an outbreak near you? What about polio? Would you be so casual about that? What about smallpox, would you think that's not a big deal? Vaccines were developed for a reason - so that we wouldn't have to go through the pain of watching our children die, like so many parents before us have done.


----------



## misspriss

catty said:


> is that not similar to saying - my friend has gone years not using protection and hasnt got pregnant yet I am a prime example who has gotten pregnant 1st time 3 times in a row. I just think saying 'well it didnt happen to me' certainly doesnt mean it wont happen to your child.

That is true as well, I would say genetics and stuff could play a role, but I have gotten pregnant on the first month of trying every time, my sister has unexplained infertility. 

Again, I don't think the risk of getting an illness is worth injecting my child with substances that I consider dangerous. 

Parents analyze risks for themselves and their children every single day. I simply see the risks differently than some people do, but other people see the risks the same way I do. Nothing is going to change how I see those risks. There wouldn't be a national vaccine injury compensation program if they were risk free.

And of course there is nothing in the debate thread worth replying to, because there is nothing really to be said. Parents assess risk for themselves and their children. I came to a different conclusion about those risks that I am willing to accept than most people in this thread. I have the legal right to make that decision for my child.

ETA: This is the kind of reaction I am talking about. This child recovered, eventually. But tell me vaccines are safe. Tell me doctors would catch it. Tell me you would do this to your child for "the greater good". This child was vaccinated on the schedule until the biggest reaction, but you can see how each and every administration of vaccines caused compounding reactions. This child's immune system is forever damaged.


----------



## Pearls18

misspriss said:


> You are both right. But as I stated before, I don't see most diseases as a death sentence for a healthy child. I guess that is a point at which we differ as well, everyone on here acts like a child will DIE if they catch the measles. Or whooping cough. Perhaps a small infant, which I admit does concern me, but I don't think multiple vaccines at a young age at the way to go.
> 
> Glad you've been to Arkansas MarineWAG, but I probably never came in contact with you, it's a big state ;) I will probably visit the UK at some point, but I have no expectation of meeting anyone I know, just way too many people!

Lol no I wouldn't have presumed to just driving through...and just realising it was Alabama not Arkansas :haha: we drove from Miss to Georgia (so would have been a bit of a detour if it had in fact of been Arkansas!) I guess my point is in this day in age it is different with globalisation, but my tongue was firmly in my cheek.

I'm sorry I've been snarky, it's just one of those topics that riles me up, of which there seems to be more of as I get older lol.


----------



## MommyJogger

I think my biggest question is why so many make it through adulthood without getting vaccinated. Like, I totally relate to not wanting to give a shot or inject a little baby. Everything else aside, I hate the thought of sticking a baby/toddler. But, say, a 5yo/6yo. Or even a teenager you can reason with. Or as an adult when you start the WTT countdown, why doesn't the "anti-vax" stance include a teen/adult catchup schedule to help protect the littlest ones they don't want vaccinated? Like what are the personal reasons as an adult that you decide against catching up?


----------



## Natsku

misspriss said:


> catty said:
> 
> 
> is that not similar to saying - my friend has gone years not using protection and hasnt got pregnant yet I am a prime example who has gotten pregnant 1st time 3 times in a row. I just think saying 'well it didnt happen to me' certainly doesnt mean it wont happen to your child.
> 
> That is true as well, I would say genetics and stuff could play a role, but I have gotten pregnant on the first month of trying every time, my sister has unexplained infertility.
> 
> Again, I don't think the risk of getting an illness is worth injecting my child with substances that I consider dangerous.
> 
> Parents analyze risks for themselves and their children every single day. I simply see the risks differently than some people do, but other people see the risks the same way I do. Nothing is going to change how I see those risks. There wouldn't be a national vaccine injury compensation program if they were risk free.
> 
> And of course there is nothing in the debate thread worth replying to, because there is nothing really to be said. Parents assess risk for themselves and their children. I came to a different conclusion about those risks that I am willing to accept than most people in this thread. I have the legal right to make that decision for my child.
> 
> ETA: This is the kind of reaction I am talking about. This child recovered, eventually. But tell me vaccines are safe. Tell me doctors would catch it. Tell me you would do this to your child for "the greater good". This child was vaccinated on the schedule until the biggest reaction, but you can see how each and every administration of vaccines caused compounding reactions. This child's immune system is forever damaged.Click to expand...

ITP is a usually mild disease in children under 6 years old and resolves by itself. It is very very rare to get it from the MMR, but it occurs quite commonly with measles (the actual disease).


----------



## catty

im probably even worse I dont even know what my children have had (well id know if I looked in their red book) I didnt look at what was contained in the vaccines and even when I did look afterwards it just didnt really bother me. 
at leadt you did research it misspriss and came to a conclusion for your family. 
I personally do see the diseases as bad, my son got chicken pox already, he was around his cousin for 15 mins and managed to catxh it without touching him, it was my week from hell and thats a fairly normal illness to get I dont know what id do if he got something worse.
with the vaccines I just think you eat a ton of shit before you die and yes some children have had reactines to the vaccines but my daughter had a reaction to an organic fruit!


----------



## misspriss

Natsku said:


> misspriss said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> catty said:
> 
> 
> is that not similar to saying - my friend has gone years not using protection and hasnt got pregnant yet I am a prime example who has gotten pregnant 1st time 3 times in a row. I just think saying 'well it didnt happen to me' certainly doesnt mean it wont happen to your child.
> 
> That is true as well, I would say genetics and stuff could play a role, but I have gotten pregnant on the first month of trying every time, my sister has unexplained infertility.
> 
> Again, I don't think the risk of getting an illness is worth injecting my child with substances that I consider dangerous.
> 
> Parents analyze risks for themselves and their children every single day. I simply see the risks differently than some people do, but other people see the risks the same way I do. Nothing is going to change how I see those risks. There wouldn't be a national vaccine injury compensation program if they were risk free.
> 
> And of course there is nothing in the debate thread worth replying to, because there is nothing really to be said. Parents assess risk for themselves and their children. I came to a different conclusion about those risks that I am willing to accept than most people in this thread. I have the legal right to make that decision for my child.
> 
> ETA: This is the kind of reaction I am talking about. This child recovered, eventually. But tell me vaccines are safe. Tell me doctors would catch it. Tell me you would do this to your child for "the greater good". This child was vaccinated on the schedule until the biggest reaction, but you can see how each and every administration of vaccines caused compounding reactions. This child's immune system is forever damaged.Click to expand...
> 
> ITP is a usually mild disease in children under 6 years old and resolves by itself. It is very very rare to get it from the MMR, but it occurs quite commonly with measles (the actual disease).Click to expand...

But it's not uncommon, it occurs in 1/30,000 or 1/40,000. In all the stories I've read (just today) it required hospitalization. This woman had to quit her job to constantly care for her child for years. It's not a 1/1,000,000 chance.

Like I said before, measles hasn't even been seen in my state, but the MMR is pushed at the doctor's ever visit - which one is a bigger risk for my children?


----------



## misspriss

MommyJogger said:


> I think my biggest question is why so many make it through adulthood without getting vaccinated. Like, I totally relate to not wanting to give a shot or inject a little baby. Everything else aside, I hate the thought of sticking a baby/toddler. But, say, a 5yo/6yo. Or even a teenager you can reason with. Or as an adult when you start the WTT countdown, why doesn't the "anti-vax" stance include a teen/adult catchup schedule to help protect the littlest ones they don't want vaccinated? Like what are the personal reasons as an adult that you decide against catching up?

I'm still not comfortable with the ingredients in the vaccines, even for an adolescent or adult. If it was something that had to be done, I'd feel less strongly against vaccinating an older child or adult. Still don't do it though.

Look at the reactions to the HPV vaccine (older children) and the flu vaccine (all ages).


----------



## misspriss

catty said:


> im probably even worse I dont even know what my children have had (well id know if I looked in their red book) I didnt look at what was contained in the vaccines and even when I did look afterwards it just didnt really bother me.
> at leadt you did research it misspriss and came to a conclusion for your family.
> I personally do see the diseases as bad, my son got chicken pox already, he was around his cousin for 15 mins and managed to catxh it without touching him, it was my week from hell and thats a fairly normal illness to get I dont know what id do if he got something worse.
> with the vaccines I just think you eat a ton of shit before you die and yes some children have had reactines to the vaccines but my daughter had a reaction to an organic fruit!

I agree, you never know what it will be. Organic fruit or a shot or a sting from a bug....I had the chicken pox when I was old enough to remember and it wasn't that bad at all. The worst part was my birthday party had to be postponed and relocated away from our house (to keep other kids from getting sick, just in case).

I even made a spreadsheet analyzing all the ingredients that I could filter out certain ones, to see if there were any I was comfortable giving DS. I looked up and researched anything I didn't know what it was, why it was in there, etc.

It doesn't help my view on vaccines that I lost my mother to a degenerative neurological disease with no known cause, that is usually (95% of the time) not hereditary but might be (there is that 5%!). Anything that even HINTS brain damage to me (aluminum, etc) is never being injected into my body or my children's.

I'm sorry, a week with the chicken pox may seem like hell. We watched my mother's brain slowly stop working for 2.5 years, in a perfectly healthy middle aged person (not elderly, etc). That is hell. She had a daughter in high school still. Telling me I should inject myself and my children with known neurotoxins (I don't really care about how much they get in breastmilk, that is digestion not injection) after watching that, that is laughable. I guess it's a bit personal for me too. Not saying that has anything to do with vaccines, but I'm not injecting any kind of neurotoxins into my children willingly. It's just a little too risky.


----------



## catty

misspriss said:


> catty said:
> 
> 
> im probably even worse I dont even know what my children have had (well id know if I looked in their red book) I didnt look at what was contained in the vaccines and even when I did look afterwards it just didnt really bother me.
> at leadt you did research it misspriss and came to a conclusion for your family.
> I personally do see the diseases as bad, my son got chicken pox already, he was around his cousin for 15 mins and managed to catxh it without touching him, it was my week from hell and thats a fairly normal illness to get I dont know what id do if he got something worse.
> with the vaccines I just think you eat a ton of shit before you die and yes some children have had reactines to the vaccines but my daughter had a reaction to an organic fruit!
> 
> I agree, you never know what it will be. Organic fruit or a shot or a sting from a bug....I had the chicken pox when I was old enough to remember and it wasn't that bad at all. The worst part was my birthday party had to be postponed and relocated away from our house (to keep other kids from getting sick, just in case).
> 
> I even made a spreadsheet analyzing all the ingredients that I could filter out certain ones, to see if there were any I was comfortable giving DS. I looked up and researched anything I didn't know what it was, why it was in there, etc.
> 
> It doesn't help my view on vaccines that I lost my mother to a degenerative neurological disease with no known cause, that is usually (95% of the time) not hereditary but might be (there is that 5%!). Anything that even HINTS brain damage to me (aluminum, etc) is never being injected into my body or my children's.
> 
> I'm sorry, a week with the chicken pox may seem like hell. We watched my mother's brain slowly stop working for 2.5 years, in a perfectly healthy middle aged person (not elderly, etc). That is hell. She had a daughter in high school still. Telling me I should inject myself and my children with known neurotoxins (I don't really care about how much they get in breastmilk, that is digestion not injection) after watching that, that is laughable. I guess it's a bit personal for me too. Not saying that has anything to do with vaccines, but I'm not injecting any kind of neurotoxins into my children willingly. It's just a little too risky.Click to expand...

sorry about your mum! 
im not at all saying anyone should have to do it. we dont even have a vaccine for chicken pox here and even if we did I wouldnt give it as I personally think its much less risky getting it as a child than an adult. as you can tell I havnt even done my research on this anyway so im not exactly goung to debate it when I dont know my facts


----------



## sue_88

Different experiences lead to different life choices.

I watched my immunocompromised uncle contract a disease that there is a vaccine for (which he hadn't recieved), and slowly break down into pieces and eventually die of septecimia. I can't help but blame the diminished herd immunity due to some other people's decisions that lead to the disease being around for my uncle to catch, and those decisions killed my uncle.

I don't vaccinate my daughter primarily for her safety, of course that is a top reason, but she's vaccinated for the good of the community.


----------



## Larkspur

sue_88 said:


> Different experiences lead to different life choices.
> 
> I watched my immunocompromised uncle contract a disease that there is a vaccine for (which he hadn't recieved), and slowly break down into pieces and eventually die of septecimia. I can't help but blame the diminished herd immunity due to some other people's decisions that lead to the disease being around for my uncle to catch, and those decisions killed my uncle.
> 
> I don't vaccinate my daughter primarily for her safety, of course that is a top reason, but she's vaccinated for the good of the community.

Sorry about your uncle. 

Not in the same league, but andx-boyfriend of mine had measles as a child, and ended up with such horrific scarring across his body that he would never take his shirt off. I mean never. Without wishing to offend, he looked like a burn victim.

Measles is a severe disease, and it has severe side effects (though really, the 1 in 500 death risk is enough for me). 

It does piss me off that people say "Oh, the risk of getting those diseases today is so low", like that isn't precisely because of herd immunity thanks to people who vaccinate. I wonder where the tipping point will be if the anti-vaxx trend continues.


----------



## misspriss

sue_88 said:


> Different experiences lead to different life choices.
> 
> I watched my immunocompromised uncle contract a disease that there is a vaccine for (which he hadn't recieved), and slowly break down into pieces and eventually die of septecimia. I can't help but blame the diminished herd immunity due to some other people's decisions that lead to the disease being around for my uncle to catch, and those decisions killed my uncle.
> 
> I don't vaccinate my daughter primarily for her safety, of course that is a top reason, but she's vaccinated for the good of the community.

I'm sorry to hear about your uncle. Do you know if he caught it from someone who chooses not to vaccinate? Do you know if an illness that did not have a vaccine would have also caused the septecimia?

But it's true, nothing anyone can say to me will change how I feel about injecting toxic substances into mine or my child's body, partly based on my experience with my mom. The same is probably true of you due to your experience with you uncle.


----------



## sue_88

misspriss said:


> sue_88 said:
> 
> 
> Different experiences lead to different life choices.
> 
> I watched my immunocompromised uncle contract a disease that there is a vaccine for (which he hadn't recieved), and slowly break down into pieces and eventually die of septecimia. I can't help but blame the diminished herd immunity due to some other people's decisions that lead to the disease being around for my uncle to catch, and those decisions killed my uncle.
> 
> I don't vaccinate my daughter primarily for her safety, of course that is a top reason, but she's vaccinated for the good of the community.
> 
> I'm sorry to hear about your uncle. Do you know if he caught it from someone who chooses not to vaccinate? Do you know if an illness that did not have a vaccine would have also caused the septecimia?
> 
> But it's true, nothing anyone can say to me will change how I feel about injecting toxic substances into mine or my child's body, partly based on my experience with my mom. The same is probably true of you due to your experience with you uncle.Click to expand...

The report into his death concluded that it was most likely caught from a health care establishments where patients were being treated for the disease, the specifics of who weren't and who were vaccinated were not disclosed to us but a private doctors evidence suggested there were unvaccinated being treated, and two others further died.

Severe septecimia (sepsis) goes hand in hand with severe bacterial/viral/fungal infections, including the ones we vaccinate against. There's no telling if he would have caught another infection in time which may have caused it but he'd had numerous infections and fought them off (including serious lung infections which can cause septecimia too) but the last disease just smashed his body to bits. That's why there's vaccines for such serious diseases to at least give some fighting chance of surviving.


----------



## sue_88

Oh and for the sake of being respectful of each other's choices, let's not call them toxic substances as I don't really think that's very nice to those who support and believe in them.


----------



## Natsku

misspriss said:


> Natsku said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> misspriss said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> catty said:
> 
> 
> 
> is that not similar to saying - my friend has gone years not using protection and hasnt got pregnant yet I am a prime example who has gotten pregnant 1st time 3 times in a row. I just think saying 'well it didnt happen to me' certainly doesnt mean it wont happen to your child.
> 
> That is true as well, I would say genetics and stuff could play a role, but I have gotten pregnant on the first month of trying every time, my sister has unexplained infertility.
> 
> Again, I don't think the risk of getting an illness is worth injecting my child with substances that I consider dangerous.
> 
> Parents analyze risks for themselves and their children every single day. I simply see the risks differently than some people do, but other people see the risks the same way I do. Nothing is going to change how I see those risks. There wouldn't be a national vaccine injury compensation program if they were risk free.
> 
> And of course there is nothing in the debate thread worth replying to, because there is nothing really to be said. Parents assess risk for themselves and their children. I came to a different conclusion about those risks that I am willing to accept than most people in this thread. I have the legal right to make that decision for my child.
> 
> ETA: This is the kind of reaction I am talking about. This child recovered, eventually. But tell me vaccines are safe. Tell me doctors would catch it. Tell me you would do this to your child for "the greater good". This child was vaccinated on the schedule until the biggest reaction, but you can see how each and every administration of vaccines caused compounding reactions. This child's immune system is forever damaged.Click to expand...
> 
> ITP is a usually mild disease in children under 6 years old and resolves by itself. It is very very rare to get it from the MMR, but it occurs quite commonly with measles (the actual disease).Click to expand...
> 
> But it's not uncommon, it occurs in 1/30,000 or 1/40,000. In all the stories I've read (just today) it required hospitalization. This woman had to quit her job to constantly care for her child for years. It's not a 1/1,000,000 chance.
> 
> Like I said before, measles hasn't even been seen in my state, but the MMR is pushed at the doctor's ever visit - which one is a bigger risk for my children?Click to expand...

1/30,000 or 1/40,000 is pretty damn uncommon. I'd quite happily take those odds. 

Most cases in young children resolve within 6 months without even needing treatment. Its different when it occurs with adults but as the MMR is given to children under 6 that's not the issue here. This woman clearly had a very rare case if it was so severe she had to quit her job to look after her child for years, but if he got that just from the vaccine how much worse do you think his reaction would have been if he had actually got measles?

It hasn't been seen in your state yet but if more and more people refuse vaccination it will spread and there is every chance it will come to your state. And you talk about what is the biggest risk to your children - its not just your children at stake here. Its every child, its every newborn that is too young to be vaccinated, its every immune-compromised person who is at very high risk of serious illness if exposed to disease, it is every elderly person who isn't strong enough to overcome these diseases. We vaccinate not only to protect our children but to protect others as well.


----------



## Natsku

Larkspur said:


> sue_88 said:
> 
> 
> Different experiences lead to different life choices.
> 
> I watched my immunocompromised uncle contract a disease that there is a vaccine for (which he hadn't recieved), and slowly break down into pieces and eventually die of septecimia. I can't help but blame the diminished herd immunity due to some other people's decisions that lead to the disease being around for my uncle to catch, and those decisions killed my uncle.
> 
> I don't vaccinate my daughter primarily for her safety, of course that is a top reason, but she's vaccinated for the good of the community.
> 
> Sorry about your uncle.
> 
> Not in the same league, but andx-boyfriend of mine had measles as a child, and ended up with such horrific scarring across his body that he would never take his shirt off. I mean never. Without wishing to offend, he looked like a burn victim.
> 
> *Measles is a severe disease, and it has severe side effects (though really, the 1 in 500 death risk is enough for me).*
> 
> It does piss me off that people say "Oh, the risk of getting those diseases today is so low", like that isn't precisely because of herd immunity thanks to people who vaccinate. I wonder where the tipping point will be if the anti-vaxx trend continues.Click to expand...

Thanks for posting that stat. Misspriss is worried about the 1 in 40,000 chance of getting a mild illness from the MMR but not worried about the 1 in 500 chance of dying if measles is caught. I find that a very strange way to measure risk. All it takes is an outbreak - one person travelling abroad and bringing it back - and that risk is suddenly huge.


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## sue_88

Natsku, that reminds me, when I was working in my last job my colleague returned from Thailand, back to work with no issues after two days her whole face had swelled up....MUMPS!! I was 28weeks pregnant and had very close contact for 17 hours a cross two days and was shit scared. Thankfully both being fully vaccinated she recovered quickly and I (or unborn) was at minimal risk of catching it.

It was very scary for me waiting for a doctor to call to see if it was potentially serious for my unborn and me.


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## Natsku

Eeek! That must have been very scary. 

My dad caught whooping cough a couple of years ago. He got very ill with it as he has a heart condition. Funny thing was, my mum had never been vaccinated against it and didn't remember ever having caught it but she didn't catch it from my dad, but that's very lucky because she was working as a cleaner in a daycare at the time and if she had caught it she could have passed it on to babies.


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## tommyg

Some times these thing are by the grace of god.

Another thing anti vac'ers don't think about is the risk of the meds that are used to treat the illness. When pregnant I was nervous about the flu jab. And ended seriously ill with all sorts meds x-rays. I doubt any of them would have been approved for use on pregnant women but when your life is on the line it becomes a case of needs must.


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## Natsku

Good point tommyg - the medicines used to treat some of these diseases have much worse side effects and are much more risky than the vaccinations!


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## misspriss

sue_88 said:


> Oh and for the sake of being respectful of each other's choices, let's not call them toxic substances as I don't really think that's very nice to those who support and believe in them.

Aluminum is a known neurotoxin. I'm not going to deny what it is, if you feel it is safe to inject into your children, that's fine. You have accepted the risk of a small amount of a known toxin to help protect against a disease, be okay with that, don't ask me to lie about what it is to make you feel better.

I'm not going to reply to this thread again, debates belong on the debate board. No one here is interested in having an informed discussion, people just want to fight and argue and bash people who choose not to vax. That is why I said at the beginning that I'd answered the question at hand in this thread and asked people to keep it to the debate board. Everyone cried "We don't understand!" but all you really wanted to do was pick a fight, no one has really tried to understand in the slightest. I'm sorry I let myself get pulled in, thinking people really wanted to try and understand.


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## sue_88

misspriss said:


> sue_88 said:
> 
> 
> Oh and for the sake of being respectful of each other's choices, let's not call them toxic substances as I don't really think that's very nice to those who support and believe in them.
> 
> Aluminum is a known neurotoxin. I'm not going to deny what it is, if you feel it is safe to inject into your children, that's fine. You have accepted the risk of a small amount of a known toxin to help protect against a disease, be okay with that, don't ask me to lie about what it is to make you feel better.
> 
> I'm not going to reply to this thread again, debates belong on the debate board. No one here is interested in having an informed discussion, people just want to fight and argue and bash people who choose not to vax. That is why I said at the beginning that I'd answered the question at hand in this thread and asked people to keep it to the debate board. Everyone cried "We don't understand!" but all you really wanted to do was pick a fight, no one has really tried to understand in the slightest. I'm sorry I let myself get pulled in, thinking people really wanted to try and understand.Click to expand...

Aluminium in _high amounts_ is a known neurotoxin, which is definitely not what is present in vaccines. Aluminium is less than 1 milligram in a vaccine. I wasn't trying to cause any issue with what I was saying, in fact my responses have nowhere mimicked my actual opinion on your decisions, being respectful of others would have included all sides using the word "vaccine" and not toxic substances. What I don't agree with is scaremongering my using the word toxin when that's very misinformed when referring to amounts present in a vaccine.


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## MommyJogger

Natsku said:


> Thanks for posting that stat. Misspriss is worried about the 1 in 40,000 chance of getting a mild illness from the MMR but not worried about the 1 in 500 chance of dying if measles is caught. I find that a very strange way to measure risk. All it takes is an outbreak - one person travelling abroad and bringing it back - and that risk is suddenly huge.

To be fair- it's not a comparison between 1:40k and 1:500. That's the risk of dying IF you get measles. You have to multiply that by the risk of getting measles at all (a number I don't know atm) to get an estimated risk of dying from measles.


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## Natsku

MommyJogger said:


> Natsku said:
> 
> 
> Thanks for posting that stat. Misspriss is worried about the 1 in 40,000 chance of getting a mild illness from the MMR but not worried about the 1 in 500 chance of dying if measles is caught. I find that a very strange way to measure risk. All it takes is an outbreak - one person travelling abroad and bringing it back - and that risk is suddenly huge.
> 
> To be fair- it's not a comparison between 1:40k and 1:500. That's the risk of dying IF you get measles. You have to multiply that by the risk of getting measles at all (a number I don't know atm) to get an estimated risk of dying from measles.Click to expand...

But all it takes is a local outbreak, and you can't predict when that could happen.

And anyway, a mild illness compared to death is always an easy choice.


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## kirstybumx3

Let me just jump in and say you are incorrect when you said "everyone". 
I openly said I was interested to learn more if anyone had links etc after putting down my opinion.


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## Larkspur

MommyJogger said:


> Natsku said:
> 
> 
> Thanks for posting that stat. Misspriss is worried about the 1 in 40,000 chance of getting a mild illness from the MMR but not worried about the 1 in 500 chance of dying if measles is caught. I find that a very strange way to measure risk. All it takes is an outbreak - one person travelling abroad and bringing it back - and that risk is suddenly huge.
> 
> To be fair- it's not a comparison between 1:40k and 1:500. That's the risk of dying IF you get measles. You have to multiply that by the risk of getting measles at all (a number I don't know atm) to get an estimated risk of dying from measles.Click to expand...

Well, I believe over the last 10 years there have been around 1000 cases of measles in the U.S. a year. So with a population of 320 mill, that's a 1:32000 risk of catching measles. And then a 1:500 risk of death (or less serious side effects). Every year. 

That's a back-of-the-envelope calculation of course, but it seems like comparable odds on the raw numbers and much better odds in favour of the vaccine once you account for the recurring annual risk.


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## misspriss

MommyJogger said:


> Natsku said:
> 
> 
> Thanks for posting that stat. Misspriss is worried about the 1 in 40,000 chance of getting a mild illness from the MMR but not worried about the 1 in 500 chance of dying if measles is caught. I find that a very strange way to measure risk. All it takes is an outbreak - one person travelling abroad and bringing it back - and that risk is suddenly huge.
> 
> To be fair- it's not a comparison between 1:40k and 1:500. That's the risk of dying IF you get measles. You have to multiply that by the risk of getting measles at all (a number I don't know atm) to get an estimated risk of dying from measles.Click to expand...

I just can't get away. MommyJogger is right. The mild illness statisic is NOT the only risk from the MMR. It was just one statistic from one risk, that by that very example is NOT always a mild illness.



kirstybumx3 said:


> Let me just jump in and say you are absolutely incorrect when you said "everyone".
> I openly said I was interested to learn more if anyone had links etc after putting down my opinion!

I do apologize, there has been several pages of people jumping on everything I say, I did miss where people were genuinely interested. This is why I tried to direct debate to the DEBATE board, so people with genuine questions and wanting actual discussion would not get lost in the flood of contentious replies. I did most of my research before DS was born, I don't have any links handy, my choice has long been made. I did post a link to the vaccine ingredients in the debate thread, that is where I started. Straight from the CDC, researched the ingredients myself.


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## MommyJogger

Larkspur said:


> MommyJogger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Natsku said:
> 
> 
> Thanks for posting that stat. Misspriss is worried about the 1 in 40,000 chance of getting a mild illness from the MMR but not worried about the 1 in 500 chance of dying if measles is caught. I find that a very strange way to measure risk. All it takes is an outbreak - one person travelling abroad and bringing it back - and that risk is suddenly huge.
> 
> To be fair- it's not a comparison between 1:40k and 1:500. That's the risk of dying IF you get measles. You have to multiply that by the risk of getting measles at all (a number I don't know atm) to get an estimated risk of dying from measles.Click to expand...
> 
> Well, I believe over the last 10 years there have been around 1000 cases of measles in the U.S. a year. So with a population of 320 mill, that's a 1:32000 risk of catching measles. And then a 1:500 risk of death (or less serious side effects). Every year.
> 
> That's a back-of-the-envelope calculation of course, but it seems like comparable odds on the raw numbers and much better odds in favour of the vaccine once you account for the recurring annual risk.Click to expand...

That's true, esp the point of iterative risk. It'd be interesting to see a map of those (again might be accessible somewhere). She's not incorrect that Arkansas isn't exactly touristy. haha, no offense, Arkansas! If it's true that they don't socialize and their neighbors, etc don't socialize/travel, academically it'd be really fun to sit down and try to figure out semi-accurate odds.


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## Natsku

misspriss said:


> MommyJogger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Natsku said:
> 
> 
> Thanks for posting that stat. Misspriss is worried about the 1 in 40,000 chance of getting a mild illness from the MMR but not worried about the 1 in 500 chance of dying if measles is caught. I find that a very strange way to measure risk. All it takes is an outbreak - one person travelling abroad and bringing it back - and that risk is suddenly huge.
> 
> To be fair- it's not a comparison between 1:40k and 1:500. That's the risk of dying IF you get measles. You have to multiply that by the risk of getting measles at all (a number I don't know atm) to get an estimated risk of dying from measles.Click to expand...
> 
> I just can't get away. MommyJogger is right. The mild illness statisic is NOT the only risk from the MMR. It was just one statistic from one risk, that by that very example is NOT always a mild illness.Click to expand...

Larkspur made a good point about how the disease risk is constant. Any risk from the MMR (and again, the risks of serious complications are extremely small) are one-off risks (well twice-off seeing as there's two jabs) whereas the risk of contracting a disease is a constant one, all your life, all your child's life, that risk is there and you never know when that risk is going to jump from a 1 in how-ever-many-thousand to a very big risk indeed.


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## zorak

My husband is a Post-Doc Biochemical Scientist, his field is cancer research (breast at the moment). It absolutely blows my mind that any lay person can think they have a better understanding of the need for ingredients etc in vaccines than scientists who dedicate their lives to learning this stuff. I proof read his reports for grammar and honestly it might as well be in an alien language. Unless you've spent 10+ years in a lab doing this day in and day out I don't think you would ever get a full understanding of the picture, and it does a total disservice to those who do dedicate their lives to trying to find cures etc.


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## kirstybumx3

I'll have a read of the debate thread - didn't know there was one. Thanks.


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## Larkspur

MommyJogger said:


> Larkspur said:
> 
> 
> Well, I believe over the last 10 years there have been around 1000 cases of measles in the U.S. a year. So with a population of 320 mill, that's a 1:32000 risk of catching measles. And then a 1:500 risk of death (or less serious side effects). Every year.
> 
> That's a back-of-the-envelope calculation of course, but it seems like comparable odds on the raw numbers and much better odds in favour of the vaccine once you account for the recurring annual risk.
> 
> That's true, esp the point of iterative risk. It'd be interesting to see a map of those (again might be accessible somewhere). She's not incorrect that Arkansas isn't exactly touristy. haha, no offense, Arkansas! If it's true that they don't socialize and their neighbors, etc don't socialize/travel, academically it'd be really fun to sit down and try to figure out semi-accurate odds.Click to expand...

Yeah, I mean there are loads of factors that would influence risk. 1:1000 odds is just an average, some years it's 150, some years it's 2000 (trending up though). If you live in a city, your risk goes up, if you're in a low-vaccination demographic, your risk goes up (like high school age kids, thanks Andrew Wakefield). If you travel internationally a lot or are in close contact with a community with a lot of international travel to high-risk areas (like the Phillipines), your risk goes through the roof.

Yeah, a homeschooled kid in rural Arkansas is going to have a pretty low risk, you can't argue with that. I do take issue with the poor understanding of science behind the decision in the first place, but I don't suppose there's any point taking the conversation to the debate thread when the phrase "Nothing you can say will change my mind" has already been rolled out. :shrug:


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## Wriggley

Misspriss - I am still curious about what another poster has said about the medicines used for some of these diseases 

IF any of your children ever caught one of these diseases (and I pray they never do) would you refuse potensionally life saving treatment if you didn't approve of the ingredients ? 

I know you say your confortable with your choice but from an outside point of view based on what you have said there's so many 'gaps' as such things that don't make sense or contradict what you have previously said


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## Tasha

This thread is no longer about the original post. If you wish to debate the vaccinating versus not vaccinating then the debate forum would be more suitable.


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## felix555

Misspriss I hope you've not felt attacked by me and it was not my intention to debate this issue because I don't think it's and issue where the one side will sway the other side and while I don't agree with not vaccinating I understand that the risk you have ... Small town, home school etc is massively different to the risk I have. To give you an idea of my risk for the first 2 years of my LO's life we lived in one of the biggest cities in the world using transport daily, we travelled often twice to South Africa, we now live in south Africa I think (need to check) it's one of the top 5 TB countries. We now live in I think the busiest city in the whole of Africa. My lo recently started nursery (half days) his place is already booked in a private school with 600 children. Later this year we will be travelling to 3 different countries.

I still don't understand you not vaccinating but I do understand your thought process a bit better.


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## jogami

Hi Felix! I live in Johannesburg and I would never not vaccinate my children. My father died of TB and went from a huge 130 kg man to 45 kg in a matter of months and died a horrible death. Visiting him in hospital we had to wear masks and my pregnant sister was not allowed near him. He worked in a busy supermarket and was obviously exposed to different germs and illnesses. I know a woman whose son got meningitis and almost didn't make it. All mostly isolated cases but definitely not worth the risk IMO. My twin girls got Rotavirus last June and it was horrid! Luckily our medical aid made sure they got private care but it was a tough time. My paed advised me that it would have been far far worse if they had not been vaccinated. The twin who had it the worst only weighed about 10 kg at the time and went down to 8.5 in a matter of days. The strain they had was one of the worst but their vaccines made sure it was not as bad as it could have been.

https://www.iflscience.com/health-and-medicine/how-anti-vaxxers-sound-normal-people-0


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## felix555

Ok I'm just putting this out there .....

Someone at the vaxxed nursery has measles :haha:


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## Natsku

Oh dear!


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## tommyg

Felix, that could well be a child who hasn't been vaxxed because of other health issues or too young to have had both doses of the MMR. Let's just be grateful that most of their friends will be protected and not in a nursery where few kids were protected.
Thoughts are with the poor child and parents.


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## bevan88

neither of my children have been subjected to the vaxs! 
Our choice as parents
As we dont live in a dictatorship i cant understand how any inclusive group for children in our society can set such rules as exclusion based on vaxed or not?
Not sure they can legally stop my children frim joining their group, not that i have come across this yet.


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## Pearls18

Non-vaccinated people wouldn't be classed as a protected group in the Equality Act (unless they were not vaccinated due to religion or disability I suppose) so it wouldn't be officially classed as discrimination thus I don't see how it would be illegal for a nursery to do so.


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## RaspberryK

I had measles as a baby, before i was old enough to have the vaccine and I'm alright :haha: Xx


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## lau86

Oh dear... Just bad luck isn't it. I hope they recover well


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## Pearls18

Hopefully with being vaxxed it will be a swifter recovery than if they weren't and the risk of it spreading should be minimised if only around vaccinated children, suddenly it puts the policy in a rather positive light even if it does sound ironic for there to be a case there. If it's just the one case it only demonstrates the success of a vaccinated community really.


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## shanny

I don't think it would happen in the uk the vaccinated preschool only


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## _jellybean_

felix555 said:


> Ok I'm just putting this out there .....
> 
> Someone at the vaxxed nursery has measles :haha:






That's terrible.


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## felix555

_jellybean_ said:


> felix555 said:
> 
> 
> Ok I'm just putting this out there .....
> 
> Someone at the vaxxed nursery has measles :haha:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's terrible.Click to expand...

Oh I should have added the boy is absolutely fine, they hardly noticed he had it until the rash started as he didn't have the cough and fever you get the week before the spots apparently which is why they're worried he might have made others ill. We will see over the next couple of days I guess.


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## JenX

There are three confirmed cases of measles in the counties bordering the one we live in right now. All were unvaccinated people.


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## Natsku

felix555 said:


> _jellybean_ said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> felix555 said:
> 
> 
> Ok I'm just putting this out there .....
> 
> Someone at the vaxxed nursery has measles :haha:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's terrible.Click to expand...
> 
> Oh I should have added the boy is absolutely fine, they hardly noticed he had it until the rash started as he didn't have the cough and fever you get the week before the spots apparently which is why they're worried he might have made others ill. We will see over the next couple of days I guess.Click to expand...

Being vaccinated he'd have a much milder case thankfully. And hopefully none of the other children have caught it.


----------

