# Vitex, Evening Primrose Oil, Progesterone Cream



## phrumkidost

Hi ladies,

I posted this on the assisted ttc forum but thought I would post it on here as well, as I am 35 and wonder if there will be more of you who would relate to what I am going through than in the other forum.

I'm new to this forum, but not new to the ups and downs (mostly) of ttc. Been doing this for almost a year, in spite of previous history with pcos and grave's disease. I knew it would be hard for me so I started with vitex right away, about 10 months ago. Finally added Evening Primrose a few months back, and also discovered that my luteal phase was short (spotting/bleeding for up to 2 weeks). A friend recommended progesterone cream, so I started that as well (20 mg/day) and, it worked like magic to stop the spotting! I had a very normal period beginning at day 28 last month. But, my question now is if I should I have stopped the cream? I kept taking it through my period and now I'm closing in on 10 days before my next period would begin, and am experiencing weird symptoms: swollen breasts, ocular migraine last night, and exhaustion today. Is it the cream? I'd love to think I could be pregnant, but now that I've read more about the cream I worry it may have suppressed ovulation. Anyone out there know more this?

I could also use some positive energy, as this whole journey can be so depressing at times.
Thanks!


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## 2have4kids

Hi Phrum, I take vitex and EPO cycle round but progesterone is only meant to be taken after O til about day 28 or if you're a 28 day cycle, maybe a few days earlier. I usually O between 17-20 so I take the cream cd 21/22-28 with a 33/34 day cycle. Any longer and you can delay AF, any earlier and you will suppress O.


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## phrumkidost

Thanks! That's what I was afraid of. I guess I should keep taking the cream until I think I should get my period, take test to make sure I'm not, and then stop the cream until after I've Oed. Does that sound about right? I'm afraid to stop it now just in case...

Also, do know much about Estrotone? I'm thinking of giving it a try, instead of the vitex and EPO.


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## 2have4kids

About progesterone, I continued to take it until my AF back in the fall and it never came! My fc explained that it can delay your AF if you take it too long. That's exactly what happened to me. I think other women I've heard from, especially pcos, have said that it helped them have AF. I use it until a few days up to my expected AF then stop. If you are preggers usually an FRER can detect it. I just didn't enjoy my 48 day cycle when I continued to take it.

When you say "and then stop the cream until after I've Oed", you won't O if you take anywhere from CD 1-O. It's a form of the bcp when taken like this.

Estrone has black cohash in it. I took black cohash back in July and wound up in the hospital. And it was a reputable brand sold at an organic health store! So after the docs researched black cohash at the ER, it's contraindicated with pregnancy and it's ingredients aren't regulated, meaning they could throw anything in there, I won't take ANY chinese herbs now. The thought behind their medicine is usually clensing the liver, well really, this is best done with a pot of hot water and lemon along with some good exercise everyday. Many of the chinese herbs have caused liver damage (look it up online-there are LOTS of incidences). So it's really not worth risking.
Vitex is really awesome, has worked very well for me shortening my cycle and bumping my ovulation from CD18-20 to CD 15-17. Money well spent.


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## phrumkidost

2have4kids said:


> When you say "and then stop the cream until after I've Oed", you won't O if you take anywhere from CD 1-O. It's a form of the bcp when taken like this.

What I meant was I would stop the cream. Continue the vitex and EPO (thanks so much for the heads' up about estrotone. Yikes!). After AF, in the new cycle, once I've Oed, I would add it back in. Does that sound right? You're not saying its bcp like this, right? Sorry for the confusion, but I really want to get it right this month. :) Also, as I'm still to new to this, I'm not sure what CD stands for?


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## 2have4kids

Yes, i believe that's right. Progesterone after O till a few days before AF. My bottle says cd21-28. Good luck, i hope something starts working for ya chickie!


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## Shellvz

phrumkidost said:


> 2have4kids said:
> 
> 
> When you say "and then stop the cream until after I've Oed", you won't O if you take anywhere from CD 1-O. It's a form of the bcp when taken like this.
> 
> What I meant was I would stop the cream. Continue the vitex and EPO (thanks so much for the heads' up about estrotone. Yikes!). After AF, in the new cycle, once I've Oed, I would add it back in. Does that sound right? You're not saying its bcp like this, right? Sorry for the confusion, but I really want to get it right this month. :) Also, as I'm still to new to this, I'm not sure what CD stands for?Click to expand...

CD stands for Calendar or Cycle Day

CD1 is first day of period


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## Blythe

Hi I took vitex for the first time yesterday and I've had a banging head all day....I never gat headaches.....is thus a normal reaction?


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## phrumkidost

Thanks, Shellvz and 2have4! The answers and support are super helpful.

Blythe, I haven't heard of headaches with vitex, but I know headaches are a hormonal thing. When I complained to my Dr. about other obvious hormonal issues she said it was a good thing. So maybe it is in your case, too? Have they improved by now?

Also, I see in your signature that you're taking raspberry leaf tea. I was advised by my Dr. to stop, as it can get in the way of pregnancy. Don't want to advise you against it if you have heard otherwise, but I'm wondering what you and others have heard?


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## Blythe

phrumkidost said:


> Thanks, Shellvz and 2have4! The answers and support are super helpful.
> 
> Blythe, I haven't heard of headaches with vitex, but I know headaches are a hormonal thing. When I complained to my Dr. about other obvious hormonal issues she said it was a good thing. So maybe it is in your case, too? Have they improved by now?
> 
> Also, I see in your signature that you're taking raspberry leaf tea. I was advised by my Dr. to stop, as it can get in the way of pregnancy. Don't want to advise you against it if you have heard otherwise, but I'm wondering what you and others have heard?

Hi....still getting them a couple of hours after taking the tabs...2 in the am and 2 in the pm. Hey ho...I will stick with them though. The red r tea is for toning uterus and I believe it is fine up to ovulation and I will cease taking it then....of course women use it towards the end of pregnancy...I did and it made sod all difference! I'm on cd9 so working out when best to bd as I will be due to ovulate on cd14-5....probable tomorrow onwards....


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## justhoping

Just to give another perspective, I conceived my son while taking progesterone the whole entire month non stop and im on the same now. I would ask your doctor what is the best for you.


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## phrumkidost

justhoping said:


> Just to give another perspective, I conceived my son while taking progesterone the whole entire month non stop and im on the same now. I would ask your doctor what is the best for you.

Thanks for this! I originally heard of progesterone cream from someone who also took it during her whole cycle. I think I'll take your advice and ask my Dr. next time I see her.


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## Blythe

Hi girls.....vitex appears to have delayed my ovulation....maybe it's my body getting used to it....I really took it as I sometimes get spotting towards end of 2ww and my temps are never particularly high is I self diagnosed low progesterone! My cbfm still showing high readings after 10 sticks so have no more left and il be buggered if I'm getting them in boots at those prices! :growlmad:So I have a couple of cheap opks whine il use instead....have lowered dosage of vitex to 800 mg per day. What dosage do you you ladies take ? Fx for you all x:thumbup:


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## justhoping

phrumkidost said:


> justhoping said:
> 
> 
> Just to give another perspective, I conceived my son while taking progesterone the whole entire month non stop and im on the same now. I would ask your doctor what is the best for you.
> 
> Thanks for this! I originally heard of progesterone cream from someone who also took it during her whole cycle. I think I'll take your advice and ask my Dr. next time I see her.Click to expand...

I take prometrium and I take it orally but I know there is several kinds and several ways to take it..

good luck hope everything turns out good :)


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## phrumkidost

Thanks, Justhoping! I have started tracking with blood work on top of OPK strips and testing. So far at CD11 nothing exciting is happening. 

Blythe, I'm sorry I didn't see your question! I take EPO 1000 mg 3x/day and vitex 660 mg 3x/day. AF seems to come every month but whether I O or not is another matter...

Hope you both get good news soon!


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## notrustyyet

Blythe said:


> Hi I took vitex for the first time yesterday and I've had a banging head all day....I never gat headaches.....is thus a normal reaction?

I know this is old, but headaches mean you took too much. When I spoke to Valerie Otto who makes Oona PMS with Vitex in it, that's what she told me. She got pregnant first time and had a baby at 45 yrs old by AI, (took about 8 months), but I only got the headaches when I took 2 of the Oona tabs (=450 mg). I think I had forgotten one day and doubled up on the dose or something...I had no problems with just 1 tab at 225 mg/day. Her stuff is very pure and concentrated, but definately headaches mean too much, but it's digested like food, so w/in 12-24 hrs, headache will be gone.


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## Blythe

notrustyyet said:


> Blythe said:
> 
> 
> Hi I took vitex for the first time yesterday and I've had a banging head all day....I never gat headaches.....is thus a normal reaction?
> 
> I know this is old, but headaches mean you took too much. When I spoke to Valerie Otto who makes Oona PMS with Vitex in it, that's what she told me. She got pregnant first time and had a baby at 45 yrs old by AI, (took about 8 months), but I only got the headaches when I took 2 of the Oona tabs (=450 mg). I think I had forgotten one day and doubled up on the dose or something...I had no problems with just 1 tab at 225 mg/day. Her stuff is very pure and concentrated, but definately headaches mean too much, but it's digested like food, so w/in 12-24 hrs, headache will be gone.Click to expand...

Hi notrusty.....its a girl how wonderful! Hope you are enjoying the pregnancy...hopefully be joining you soon!

I gave up on the vitex...it delayed my ovulation. I got some dhea today so going to add that too my regime. Do you think it will be ok to start it mid-cycle as im due to ovulate next tues?


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## notrustyyet

I'd say you can start anytime with the DHEA. Yeah about the Vitex... can be tricky if you have Yin/estrogen deficiecy (TCM) and over 40, we are all in that peri-menopausal stage. I'd say it played a minor role in my BFP for myself, but I was taking a low (225 mg) dose so I listed it. The black cohosh 1st 12 days really seemed to increase my post O temps higher/longer though...as my luteal phase could be less than 10 days some months.

I"m REALLY keeping my fingers crossed for you! You've only been trying about a year, so not too terribly long, you already have a child -what age BTW? so, it'll definately happen, it just takes longer at our age. Friend of mine is an OB nurse, says she sees women all the time up to age 45 who are getting preg naturally....

I don't know if I posted this anywhere else, but had the Harmony trisomy test done, "low risk", and just did amnio last week and confirmed no trisomies...Been an easy pregnancy so far, just more tired than when I was 31, and have a bad cold at moment that is lingering in me much longer with the decreased immune function compared to DH and DD. (didn't get a flu shot, but wondering if maybe I should have...)


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## Blythe

notrustyyet said:


> I'd say you can start anytime with the DHEA. Yeah about the Vitex... can be tricky if you have Yin/estrogen deficiecy (TCM) and over 40, we are all in that peri-menopausal stage. I'd say it played a minor role for myself, but I was taking a low (225 mg) dose so I listed it. The black cohosh 1st 12 days really seemed to increase my post O temps higher/longer though...as my luteal phase could be less than 10 days some months.
> 
> I"m REALLY keeping my fingers crossed for you! You've only been trying about a year, so not too terribly long, you already have a child -what age BTW? so, it'll definately happen, it just takes longer at our age. Friend of mine is an OB nurse, says she sees women all the time up to age 45 who are getting preg naturally....
> 
> I don't know if I posted this anywhere else, but had the Harmony trisomy test done, "low risk", and just did amnio last week and confirmed no trisomies...Been an easy pregnancy so far, just more tired than when I was 31, and have a bad cold at moment that is lingering in me much longer with the decreased immune function compared to DH and DD. (didn't get a flu shot, but wondering if maybe I should have...)

Hope that cold clears up soon....thanks for reply:flower:

I have been trying for over 2 years now although some months have been a bit of blow out...we have a 3.5 yr old ds so that doesn't help on the bd side of things (combination of tiredness and him sleeping between us!!)

I have a 28 day cycle with ovulation cd13/14 although its sometimes cd12. No issues re lp length but my temps are usually on low side throughout entire cycle. The acu and herbs dont seem to have helped with that.

Which of your supps are you still taking during the pregnancy? Did you ever bother with baby aspirin?


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## Momma_dreams

I'm 38 and my naturopath prescribed progesterone cream daily with the exception of CD's 1-5. So I take it while ovulating. Not sure the difference it makes?


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## Blythe

Momma_dreams said:


> I'm 38 and my naturopath prescribed progesterone cream daily with the exception of CD's 1-5. So I take it while ovulating. Not sure the difference it makes?

I would be inclined to go back to your naturopath and check this! Progesterone will delay/stop ovulation. I use the cream but only after ovulation is confirmed, never before. Progesterone is used in some bc pills to stop pregnancy so this is duff advice unless she wants you to use it for a couple of months which is sometimes the case if you want to regulate menses etc


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## 2have4kids

Blythe said:


> Momma_dreams said:
> 
> 
> I'm 38 and my naturopath prescribed progesterone cream daily with the exception of CD's 1-5. So I take it while ovulating. Not sure the difference it makes?
> 
> I would be inclined to go back to your naturopath and check this! Progesterone will delay/stop ovulation. I use the cream but only after ovulation is confirmed, never before. Progesterone is used in some bc pills to stop pregnancy so this is duff advice unless she wants you to use it for a couple of months which is sometimes the case if you want to regulate menses etcClick to expand...

Unless she has severe PCOS, but it's still a bit odd that a naturopath would prescribe this over a fertility/gyno doctor.


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## Blythe

2have4kids said:


> Blythe said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Momma_dreams said:
> 
> 
> I'm 38 and my naturopath prescribed progesterone cream daily with the exception of CD's 1-5. So I take it while ovulating. Not sure the difference it makes?
> 
> I would be inclined to go back to your naturopath and check this! Progesterone will delay/stop ovulation. I use the cream but only after ovulation is confirmed, never before. Progesterone is used in some bc pills to stop pregnancy so this is duff advice unless she wants you to use it for a couple of months which is sometimes the case if you want to regulate menses etcClick to expand...
> 
> Unless she has severe PCOS, but it's still a bit odd that a naturopath would prescribe this over a fertility/gyno doctor.Click to expand...

Sorry i take back my advice then....perhaps there is a very good reason she has advised you take pre ovulation.


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## 2have4kids

Blyth, when I first heard this I was really taken back. How they could make BCP out of progesterone and then put PCOS women on it and it helps them have a cycle. It's just that PCOS produces SO much testosterone, estrogen (I think) and almost no progesterone I've heard that some really struggle. Like they get facial hair and other things that testosterone is bad for.


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## Blythe

2have4kids said:


> Blyth, when I first heard this I was really taken back. How they could make BCP out of progesterone and then put PCOS women on it and it helps them have a cycle. It's just that PCOS produces SO much testosterone, estrogen (I think) and almost no progesterone I've heard that some really struggle. Like they get facial hair and other things that testosterone is bad for.

Thanks for info...&#128515;.perhaps that's the reason it's been prescribed. Hormones are so complex!


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## notrustyyet

Blythe, your cycles seem good, haven't shortened yet like mine. You say your temps are low all month, have you had you TSH/thyroid checked? What was it? My thyroid is still apparently functioning normal, but I do have high antibodies, so it's a matter of time...my TSH test before pregnancy bounced around from 2.5 to 2.7. I felt cold much of the time and had a lot of hair falling out, but maybe the DHEA contributed....

I usually began temping CD 6 and my temps Pre O (vaginally, MUCH easier BTW) averaged 97.3-97.5 F, sometimes were 97.2, and right after O would jump to 98, rise a bit and by 5 or 6 DPO usually got to 98.5-.6. The month of my BFP, temps stayed up at that level, and the times I tried Black Cohosh I also had triphasic temps.

I did try aspirin as well as other things esp. like L-Arginine (a nitric oxide donor) to aid implantation until I read this:


https://igitur-archive.library.uu.nl/dissertations/2009-0406-200411/boomsma.pdf

Go to the bottom of pg 27 where they discuss therapies to improve implantation and results, was very interesting.


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## Blythe

Notrusty.....that report is v.interesting. Many thanks for drawing my attention to it...im going to drop the l-arginine and only have 5 aspirin left.

I have just woken up and temped vaginally and orally with two different thermometers and got a much higher temp V.....so thats what m going to do from now on. It will make this months chart look a bit misleading but i dont care.

:flower: thank you


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## notrustyyet

I've also compared oral and vaginal temps. Oral always lower. Seems vaginally more consistent/accurate. You could have been sleeping with mouth open etc.


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## 2have4kids

notrustyyet said:


> https://igitur-archive.library.uu.nl/dissertations/2009-0406-200411/boomsma.pdf
> 
> Go to the bottom of pg 27 where they discuss therapies to improve implantation and results, was very interesting.

Excellent read - thank you!:flower:


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## Briss

Notrusty, thank you for the link, that's a very interesting study. I have reconsidered taking arginine this cycle after reading it, I have been taking it last two cycles in TWW but it did not make any positive changes


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