# Why do people say they dont want vaginal examinations?



## youngwife20

Hi, I was just wondering what the reasons are? Because I thought the vaginal examinations were to check baby is okay and to check how far along in cm you are?

But Ive read alot of people on here are strongly against it.

I was just curious as to why?

is there any risks of it or anything?

Just wondering?

Thanks :)


----------



## Mellybelle

Didnt want to read and run..I want to know the answer to this one too!


----------



## Linzi

I don't think VEs are to check baby is ok, unless I'm wrong I think they do that by tracing babys heartrate through contractions making sure there are no recurrent accelerations/decelerations... as far as I kniw you can pick up most signs baby is distressed this way (alongside meconium in waters).

Cant speak for anyone else but for me, VEs were really painful & uncpmfortable and tbh I found them slightly unnecessary as your body tells you the right time to push ayway, I was confident I knew when my babys head was coming down & the right time to push so I never felt the need to have a VE. I did ask for one when the mw first arrived, but only because I wasn't sure if I was def in labour or not, and I found that finding out how dilated I was gave me a bit more focus too. But that was the only one I had I let my body do what it felt was right :)

xxx


----------



## Mellybelle

Actually, when I was in labour with my LO (now 3) I knew I was near the end, but the mw did a VE and told me I was only 6cm. That was it! I started begging for an epidural even though I had been through the whole labour with no drugs and had been coping well. The mw started to prep me for the epi, then noticed it was too late and he was born 20 minutes later. I really think if she hadnt told me 6cm, I wouldnt have started to focus on the pain so much. I'd been doing so well before that.


----------



## Blah11

Theyre really uncomfortable and when you want to push, you know you want to push. The 1cm an hour 'rule' can cause a lot of stress and really, you can take 10 hours to get to 5cm then only 2 hours until you're fully dilated.

I'll ask for an internal when MW first arrives so I know where my starting off point is but i think that will be the first and only.


----------



## youngwife20

Interesting :) thank you for answering ladies.


----------



## diz

As Blah says! Also, there are other physiological indicators of dilation - its not completely necessary to go rooting around up there. Especially in a drug free labour. Also performing internals can some times have a negative effect on the labouring woman by slowing and in extreme cases stopping progress. However this is not the norm for most active births. TBH i had one internal when i first saw my MW so she could assess if she needed to make her way to my home or if she could stay at work for a bit longer. I was 3cm when she examined me and that was the last time she had her fingers any where near that area until Noah was crowning.


----------



## irish_cob

I think because they can have a negative effect psychologically as others have said, if you've been in active labour for ages and then a MW comes along and says "you're only 4cms" that can make you feel crap. But really it's not an indicator of anything, no one dilates at the same rate as anyone else, you might take 8 hours to get to 5cm, so then you think "oh no, another 8 hours to go", but then you may actually only take an hour to get from there to pushing, so it's not a reliable indicator of how long you have left. It doesn't show the baby is ok, it's nothing to do with the baby. There are other signs to watch for which will show how labour is progressing, things like the muscles in the back and bum change, something happens with the anus (can't remember what) and experienced midwives can also tell how labour is progressing from how the mum is managing. Any interference is a chance for infection to happen, so I'd prefer to keep VEs to a minimum, when they're not strictly necessary.


----------



## youngwife20

having and internal check increases chance of infection?


----------



## Ashy

i had VEs from 36 weeks with my last pregnancy, my OB told me that i should have Babe around my EDD, and i walked around desperately at 3cm for weeks with no result, and ended up being 11 days past. this time i dont freakin care, ill go with my body and push as it tells me, not because im allowed to at 10cm.


----------



## chuck

They can accidentally rupture your memranes too.

But 1 persons 5cm may be anothers 3cm, its unreliable.


----------



## sam#3

it is unreliable, irrelevant and can really infulence a womans experience of labour... for eg. if she is coping well with the pain and managing things naturally and is then told she is _only_ 4cms it can make her feel negative and deflated and therefore make her think she cant cope through the pain and so her labour can change and she can end up asking for drugs that had she not have just had that internal she wouldnt have asked for.
Also past about 2cms they tend to 'make it up' as there is no way of telling past that point how far opened up your cervix is in cm's but as women seem to be obsessed with knowing a number through labour they kind of guesstimate it to satisy the woman.
In addition to this one woman can go from 1-fully in under an hour and another can take 30 hours so it has no relevance on the labour... being '2' doesnt mean it will be hours and hours to fully, equally being '6' doesnt mean fully is just around the corner....

:)


----------



## Celesse

I had a birth reflections appointment a few weeks ago. I clearly remembered how many cm dialted I was at each examination. My notes didn't match to what I'd been told! Plus I'm pretty sure that if the same midwife had examined me the results would have been different.


----------



## booflebump

Intervention breeds intervention, so as seeming harmless as VE's are made out to be, once you are examined, a time limit is put on your labour. Depending on your NHS trust, you only have so long to dilate and deliver. So the longer they can be avoided, or avoided altogether, the better

xxx


----------



## madasa

youngwife20 said:


> Hi, I was just wondering what the reasons are? Because I thought the vaginal examinations were to check baby is okay and to check how far along in cm you are?
> 
> But Ive read alot of people on here are strongly against it.
> 
> I was just curious as to why?
> 
> is there any risks of it or anything?
> 
> Just wondering?
> 
> Thanks :)

At best, they are nearly always unnecessary. A MW worth her salt can assess your progress via external signs. Yipes, even a doula should be able to tell roughly where you are in labour by watching your behaviour, "the bottom line" etc.

Plus, it doesn't tell them if the baby is ok. Nor does it tell them how much longer you will be in labour (since you can dilate to a 5 in a couple of hrs and then take 12 hrs to dilate another 5 or vice versa). Nor does it tell them if it is "time for you to push" - if your baby's head is on the big side you will need to dilate past 10 and in any case SOME pushing HELPS you dilate and/or helps the baby descend. Pushing is like vomiting. No matter HOW MANY years a person has studied medicine, there is only one person who knows precisely WHEN they need to run to the bathroom and retch into the toilet. 

At worst, VEs hinder labour.

- the mum can feel disappointed if she is not as far along as she would like to be (imagine labouring hard for many hours only to be told you are only 2-3 cms???) 

- it can cause the cervix to UNdilate. Lots of things can cause this... anything that makes the mum feel uncomfortable in any way.

- it can cause infection

- the bag of waters might be popped by mistake (or "by mistake" :( )

- it disturbs the mother. The staff can't do it w/o your consent, but to GET your consent, they have to pull you out of the "labour trance". This hinders the process and makes it more unpleasant and uncomfortable for the mum.

HTH :D


----------



## nov_mum

I think the others have pointed out all of the negatives but the thing that worries me the most is infection.


----------



## youngwife20

Ashy said:


> i had VEs from 36 weeks with my last pregnancy, my OB told me that i should have Babe around my EDD, and i walked around desperately at 3cm for weeks with no result, and ended up being 11 days past. this time i dont freakin care, ill go with my body and push as it tells me, not because im allowed to at 10cm.

yeh but if you start pushing when your only 3cm.. wouldnt that effect baby? the thread i read today about home birth some midwife lady said a woman was pushing when she was only 3cm and babys heartrate dropped. so for that reason isnt the checks important? ( im not starting a debate lol im just learning its my first pregnancy so , ive never thought about this till today :)


----------



## youngwife20

booflebump said:


> Intervention breeds intervention, so as seeming harmless as VE's are made out to be, once you are examined, a time limit is put on your labour. Depending on your NHS trust, you only have so long to dilate and deliver. So the longer they can be avoided, or avoided altogether, the better
> 
> xxx

 So does that mean if someone is labour for a long time even if its progressing okay theyl want to do something like a c section? stupid question but i dont know all this lol. i for sure want a natural labour and if avoidable wouldnt like any interventions.. xxx


----------



## youngwife20

nov_mum said:


> I think the others have pointed out all of the negatives but the thing that worries me the most is infection.

yeh i never heard anything about infections before by just having a midwife have her finger up there.. 

and also .. noeone has any positives lol but thats understandable because of were i posted the question. but is internals not still part of a natural labour? or does that make it not? so many questions lol


----------



## youngwife20

Are there no positives of an internal?


----------



## Mellybelle

Believe me hun, when its time to start pushing, you'll know!!! No one will need to tell you, your body starts to do it on its own and you have no choice but to join in.


----------



## Ashy

Yeah im pretty sure that if youre going natural and 'go with your body' you wont be pushing at 3cm. when you feel the urge is when you should push if you have to, even if its only a little bit at the peak of a contraction. even though i had an epi with my first labour, when i was PAST 10cm, they started me pushing even though i didnt have to, but after a while i was numb but still felt the urge to push anyway
:)


----------



## Blah11

youngwife20 said:


> Are there no positives of an internal?

lol, guess not!


----------



## ljo1984

i found VE's ok when having imogen, not painful or anything so i dont mine having them this time, but when i had DD, i was on pitocin drip and was in agony for hours and was only 4cm when she checked so that really got me down, so i think i'll have one VE when MW arrives then leave it unless i change my mine later, leave the rest to natural signs etc.


----------



## lynnikins

personally i dont mind ve's i had one with EJ caus i wanted to know i knew it was getting close and needed to call DH to come back to the hospital she told me a stretchy 6cm and he was here 35 min later lol so possibly not accurate or i dilated really quick lol i dont find them painful but im unsure currently as to what i'll want this time i'll go with it I think and if i want to know i'll have them check lol i dont find it breaks my "trance" at all


----------



## sam#3

imo no, there are no positives of internals


----------



## NaturalMomma

For me my reasons are;

* They won't tell me how long it will be until I have baby
* They're uncomfortable
* They can introduce bacteria and cause an infection
* They can accidentally break your membranes if they aren't already broken
* Some Doctors and Midwives use it as a way to tell you you're going too slow for them
* It really tells you nothing


----------



## chuck

youngwife20 said:


> So does that mean if someone is labour for a long time even if its progressing okay theyl want to do something like a c section? stupid question but i dont know all this lol. i for sure want a natural labour and if avoidable wouldnt like any interventions.. xxx


Too often if you arent progressing along the 1cm per hour textbook nonsense then steps will be taken to 'speed things along' (sounds so innocent)

Artificial rupture of membranes (unpleasant, can cut you and/or baby, can risk cord prolapse, ill not help baby positioning)

Hormone drip - increases the frequency and strength of contractions ( stuck with a drip in your arm and now on a monitor practically immobile with more painful contractions -torture! Risks distressing baby amoung other things)

With any of these steps you increase the risk of needing further interventions/assistance like epidurals/ventouse/forceps and ultimately emergency CS.

So yes you can be labouring well making progress but not enough for hospital policy and end up with a EMCS.

I did.

I was progressing slowly but making progress, but not enough so AROM, nothing happened except baby wouldnt move from being posterior, drip & monito so of course baby wouldnt move I needed an epi now and wow without baby ever being in distress off I went to theatre..


----------



## youngwife20

I was wondering if you didnt want the epi why didnt you say no? as i know they can force c sections but not pain relief?


----------



## chuck

Me?

At the time I wanted the epi..I needed it I had been in labour for 28 hours and told I was failing to progress, had been in an ambulance and all the way that I wasn't progressing etc, also told not to eat so I was shattered and in a lot of pain because of the drip and not being able to move off the bed!

They broke the blimmin thing towards the end and OMFG that was not good! Needed a spinal for my EMCS.

But you can refuse a CS even, that cannot be forced on you unless you are deemed to be unsound of mind.


----------



## youngwife20

Chuck - i get what you mean that must have been traumatic! , i dont think id refuse a c section i would refused an epi and anything else other than gas and air though :)


----------



## chuck

I cant imagine many women refusing an EMCS by the time you get one being offered wither baby is in distress or you are!

Dont get me wrong as much as I hate epis and didnot have a good experience they do have their place. I just dont get women who opt for them when they arent having interventions.


----------



## madasa

Even if you do have a VE, you can always ask the MW not to tell you the number.... cos tat is all it is! A number, and not a very useful one! I think there are other things to be gained from a VE, but as a routine procedure, yeah, pretty useless :)


----------



## chuck

They can use a VE as a method to determine the lie of the baby anterior/posterior by feeling the fontanelles....but again its not all that reliable. I remember with Dewi he was back to back but I had loads of VE's and they would hmmm and harrr and say well I think he's lying this way and draw a little picture in my notes.


----------



## Linzi

I posted a positive :) For me, knowing where I was in my labour spurred me on to keep going, I knew I was going in the right direction and it kind of gave me focus iykwim?

However that's obvs not the case for everyone and I was lucky that I laboured quickly as it then put me on the '1cm per hour' timer... I was 5cms so I knew I only had 5 hours really before they would start trying to get me in to hospital. Fortunately I got from 5cms to her being born in 45 mins so was very lucky. I think the negatives well outweight the positives of VEs tbh

xx


----------



## chuck

Hmmm its difficult really depending on your labour, the VE's in my 1st labour were soul destroying...youre only X cm dilated, you still havent made any progress, only X cm still, theres still a lip left, no still a lip it's no good....etc

THe 2nd I only had 2 VE's, well done you're doing great I'd say 7 maybe 8cm, 10cm excellent going!

I guess it depends on how you are doing and feeling at the time.

Although I never found any VE painful or uncomfortable - except for 1 performed by thye OB who was trying to remove some membranes to have a good feel and was scraping around in there with the hook...nice.


----------



## PJ32

I remember as clear as day the first VE with my first, I nearly shot through the roof, the midwife was evil. I was young and hadn't got the guts to say no, i thought it was part of the course. with my 2nd i was a little wiser, had one when i first got in and refused any more, i had no pain meds and a wonderful labour. needless to say this time round i am hoping for the same lol


----------



## Kess

madasa said:


> Even if you do have a VE, you can always ask the MW not to tell you the number.... cos tat is all it is! A number, and not a very useful one! I think there are other things to be gained from a VE, but as a routine procedure, yeah, pretty useless :)

I had one VE, partly to see if I was far enough along to get in the pool without the risk of things slowing down, and partly because things seemed to be very intense for how little time I'd been in labour, and my MW didn't tell me a number, she just said something along the lines of, "Gosh that's a lot of progress! You can get in the pool if you want." I think I was 5cm ish, I did ask a week or so afterwards but can't remember if it was 5 or 6cm. I suspect even if I'd been 2cm MW would have said something positive though, that's one of the great things about her. I did find the actual process of having the VE disruptive to my being "in the zone" during labour - MW tried to do the VE with me on my hands and knees but it didn't work so I had to flip onto my back.

I think the important thing about VEs is that they need to be a woman's informed choice. They are useless for a lot of women, but as a couple of PP have said they can be useful for some women. People need to know the advantages and disadvantages of them and make a decision after knowing all the facts.


----------



## diz

Mellybelle said:


> Believe me hun, when its time to start pushing, you'll know!!! No one will need to tell you, your body starts to do it on its own and you have no choice but to join in.

This didn't happen for me. I think i was fully dilated for a while before i was told "Common Andrea - push this baby out" 

I didnt have any drugs or even G&A during my labour. I know a couple of other girls who also didn't get that over whelming urge to push. Im hoping i'll experience that this time round.


----------



## summer.

it's very invasive and i don't imagine it to be very comfortable. personally, it's not for me!


----------



## Tegans Mama

diz said:


> Mellybelle said:
> 
> 
> Believe me hun, when its time to start pushing, you'll know!!! No one will need to tell you, your body starts to do it on its own and you have no choice but to join in.
> 
> This didn't happen for me. I think i was fully dilated for a while before i was told "Common Andrea - push this baby out"
> 
> I didnt have any drugs or even G&A during my labour. I know a couple of other girls who also didn't get that over whelming urge to push. Im hoping i'll experience that this time round.Click to expand...

From what I've read, it's perfectly normal not to feel an urge to push right away. I know a woman who was fully dilated for over 90 minutes before she felt anything. She had a good MW, a supportive doula, and they just waited. Because really, there's no need to rush it, is there? Her body was quite obviously not ready to birth the baby yet. The only people who would've rushed it out were the MW or doctor. 

Plus, remember that not everyone's body dilates to 10cm. Some dilate to 9. Some dilate to 12. There's no set rule - just a bunch of jargon some doctors made up that is practically irrelevant because seriously... HOW do you measure 10cm with one hand. It's all guesswork.

My personal experience is that VE's are very uncomfortable and not worth the pain/infection risk. I am one of the unfortunate people who contracted an infection through multiple VE's. An infection that is believed to have then travelled into my daughters open spinal defect and left her with a severely life threatening infection of her own to intend with which took six weeks of intravenous antibiotics to cure. 

I was checked every hour, on the hour, sat on a bed being monitored (because my baby had a severe brain disorder and the Drs didn't know how she would react to labour). I progressed VERY slowly, because frankly I was scared shitless. My waters broke by themselves but nothing happened.. I was prodded and poked and it was frankly horrific. VE's are IMO completely useless when determining a womans' progress in labour. It only tells you how far she is NOW, right this second, and even then it's an estimate, and that estimate is frankly useless.


----------



## chuck

I didnt get the urge to push for quite a while once I was fully dilated.

But MW reckons the cheeky monkey had turned posterior for a while.


----------



## Kess

diz said:


> Mellybelle said:
> 
> 
> Believe me hun, when its time to start pushing, you'll know!!! No one will need to tell you, your body starts to do it on its own and you have no choice but to join in.
> 
> This didn't happen for me. I think i was fully dilated for a while before i was told "Common Andrea - push this baby out"
> 
> I didnt have any drugs or even G&A during my labour. I know a couple of other girls who also didn't get that over whelming urge to push. Im hoping i'll experience that this time round.Click to expand...

And I didn't push until his head was nudging my perineum - thankfully, since his head took quite a bit of effort to get out and if I'd pushed him down the birth canal too I might have run out of energy. Even without pushing he still descended: there's often no need to "push this baby out", the contractions do their job and gravity helps if you're in a good position.


----------



## madasa

Kess said:


> madasa said:
> 
> 
> Even if you do have a VE, you can always ask the MW not to tell you the number.... cos tat is all it is! A number, and not a very useful one! I think there are other things to be gained from a VE, but as a routine procedure, yeah, pretty useless :)
> 
> I had one VE, partly to see if I was far enough along to get in the pool without the risk of things slowing down, and partly because things seemed to be very intense for how little time I'd been in labour, and my MW didn't tell me a number, she just said something along the lines of, "Gosh that's a lot of progress! You can get in the pool if you want." I think I was 5cm ish, I did ask a week or so afterwards but can't remember if it was 5 or 6cm. I suspect even if I'd been 2cm MW would have said something positive though, that's one of the great things about her. I did find the actual process of having the VE disruptive to my being "in the zone" during labour - MW tried to do the VE with me on my hands and knees but it didn't work so I had to flip onto my back.
> 
> I think the important thing about VEs is that they need to be a woman's informed choice. They are useless for a lot of women, but as a couple of PP have said they can be useful for some women. People need to know the advantages and disadvantages of them and make a decision after knowing all the facts.Click to expand...

Your midwofe sounds wonderful! Mine was similar, "wow, your cervix has been really busy! those ctx you have been feeling today, they've really been doing their job!" THAT is what you need to hear in labour, IMO. I wish all MWs were like this!

Re: getting in too early - there IS a risk it could slow you down. Odd that many MWs suggest a BATH in early labour, no? ;) Way I see it, if I get in a ctx slow down.... I will.... get out again! Course, this is MWs time and NHS money we're talking about, here :(

I agree 100% about informed choice. That is key. :D


----------



## madasa

diz said:


> Mellybelle said:
> 
> 
> Believe me hun, when its time to start pushing, you'll know!!! No one will need to tell you, your body starts to do it on its own and you have no choice but to join in.
> 
> This didn't happen for me. I think i was fully dilated for a while before i was told "Common Andrea - push this baby out"
> 
> I didnt have any drugs or even G&A during my labour. I know a couple of other girls who also didn't get that over whelming urge to push. Im hoping i'll experience that this time round.Click to expand...

Weirdly, I also did not feel that last time. I was only vageuly aware that anyone was in the room with me, but then all of a sudden I felt this overwhelming urge.... No, it wasn't even an urge. My body was just pushing, I had no choice in the matter. My wise, wise midwives had popped into the next room for a cup of tea. I must have been aware of their presence and exit on SOME level! The intensity took me back a bit, and I gasped out "midwife!" I just had this feeling that my baby was coming NOW!!! As soon as they came back, it eased off.... I gently breathed her out a short time later (hardly pushed at all, my uterus did most of the work!) but looking back I wish I'd just let it happen when they left the room.

I've heard of MANY MWs employing this tactic.... Leave the room, or get the mum to go to the toilet. Just being in the privacy of the cubicle is enough to bring on that urge for some ladies. Others feel it when they actually sit on the loo, maybe b/c of a lifetime of conditioning to "open" and "let go" when they sit on the toilet. I'm not sure why some women just don't feel this urge.... I suspect it may be to do with environment, how well they trust their attendants and perhaps also sometimes it is just the "rest and be thankful" stage. (a gap between full dilation and pushing that is normal, and allows mum to rest so she has the energy needed for the next phase) :)


----------



## Nikki_d72

I'm sure I read a comment from Dr Michael Odent along the lines of the spontaneous pushing reflex only really happening in an undisturbed birth situation, so it may be why some women don't get it if they are feeling observed or are not allowed by their attendants to "get in the zone" and may be why it comes on in the loo etc. There's a proper name for it but I can't remember, sorry.

EDA: Saying that, it happened to me this time even when I was willing it not to and was surrounded by 2 hospital MW's and a registrar. My body took over and pushed my babies out, although it wouldn't have taken as much as they were still so tiny, admittedly. It was a horrible feeling to have no control although it would be a great one in a normal birthing situation, it's a hideous paradox for me. BUT when I think about it I never called for help until I was pretty much at that stage as I was in denial that I was in labour at all so I did labour alone and undisturbed, really. I tried every trick in the book that I'd learned about undisturbed labour and reversed it to stop it - I kept the lights on bright, kept myself full of fear (not hard, that), lay on my back to keep pressure off my cervix etc etc. I was afraid every night as I knew that most of us labour at night. Maybe that is what delayed labour for those 6 days, who knows. The stupid registrar discounted being upright and moving around to apply pressure on the cervix to help dilation as "wives tales, midwives tales", I felt like clocking her and it was her that was on call the night I went into labour too, oh joy.


----------



## lesbianlove

i personally found VE agony and unneeded to be fair i only ever had the one when i was young and in labour with my first and didnt even know i could refuse it! with my second they said i was in early labour didnt do a ve and he was born half an hour later, its the VE after the birth that im deffo refusing, the last thing i want is someone rooting there hand up there straight after uv delivered, and i only ever had a very small graze which didnt even need anything done to it, with my second i refused and refused and the mw went ahead and done it, i felt completly violated and jumped out ma skin when she just done it, with this its on my notes on homebirth no ve at any point, and if i feel iv got a graze after the birth then its not like il need stitches which u can also refuse, i actualy wish midwives were just there to observe and if anything went wrong they would intervene


----------



## Pielette

It's part of my birth plan that I don't want to be poked and prodded constantly. In fact, I'd like one check to see if I can get in my pool and that's it. We don't need to discuss numbers. 
My hypnobirthing practitioner has also told me about the spontaneous pushing reflex - our bodies will do it themselves when they are ready. And that's the point, midwives and doctors saying 'you're only Xcm dilated' or 'you're not making much progress'; it puts you on edge, it slows things down and a lot of the time they are far too eager to make a birthing mother get on with it quicker than she should do. Then you're uncomfortable, baby gets distressed... It's a vicious cycle, whereas if they just hang back and support you, YOU will know when to push - or rather, your body will, cos you'll have no control over it!
My practitioner gave me a a DVD of a friend's birth she attended and the midwives were brilliant. No checking, just making sure mum was ok, checking the baby's heartbeat and just generally creating a wonderful relaxed atmosphere. That is much better for both us and our babies!


----------



## Blah11

lesbianlove said:


> i personally found VE agony and unneeded to be fair i only ever had the one when i was young and in labour with my first and didnt even know i could refuse it! with my second they said i was in early labour didnt do a ve and he was born half an hour later, its the VE after the birth that im deffo refusing, the last thing i want is someone rooting there hand up there straight after uv delivered, and i only ever had a very small graze which didnt even need anything done to it, with my second i refused and refused and the mw went ahead and done it, i felt completly violated and jumped out ma skin when she just done it, with this its on my notes on homebirth no ve at any point, and if i feel iv got a graze after the birth then its not like il need stitches which u can also refuse, i actualy wish midwives were just there to observe and if anything went wrong they would intervene

I have no recollection of getting one after birth :shrug: Either she had a quick look only and saw there was no damage or I was way too into my new baby to notice! Bizarre!


----------



## chuck

I remember having my foof looked at after the birth as 2 of them were looking wit a big ol red torch!


----------



## youngwife20

PJ32 said:


> I remember as clear as day the first VE with my first, I nearly shot through the roof, the midwife was evil. I was young and hadn't got the guts to say no, i thought it was part of the course. with my 2nd i was a little wiser, had one when i first got in and refused any more, i had no pain meds and a wonderful labour. needless to say this time round i am hoping for the same lol

 may i ask how old you were the first time? and so you think not having anymore helped your labour process? thanks for answering


----------



## youngwife20

Linzi said:


> I posted a positive :) For me, knowing where I was in my labour spurred me on to keep going, I knew I was going in the right direction and it kind of gave me focus iykwim?
> 
> However that's obvs not the case for everyone and I was lucky that I laboured quickly as it then put me on the '1cm per hour' timer... I was 5cms so I knew I only had 5 hours really before they would start trying to get me in to hospital. Fortunately I got from 5cms to her being born in 45 mins so was very lucky. I think the negatives well outweight the positives of VEs tbh
> 
> xx

Thanks for answering :) xx


----------



## youngwife20

Tegans Mama said:


> diz said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mellybelle said:
> 
> 
> Believe me hun, when its time to start pushing, you'll know!!! No one will need to tell you, your body starts to do it on its own and you have no choice but to join in.
> 
> This didn't happen for me. I think i was fully dilated for a while before i was told "Common Andrea - push this baby out"
> 
> I didnt have any drugs or even G&A during my labour. I know a couple of other girls who also didn't get that over whelming urge to push. Im hoping i'll experience that this time round.Click to expand...
> 
> From what I've read, it's perfectly normal not to feel an urge to push right away. I know a woman who was fully dilated for over 90 minutes before she felt anything. She had a good MW, a supportive doula, and they just waited. Because really, there's no need to rush it, is there? Her body was quite obviously not ready to birth the baby yet. The only people who would've rushed it out were the MW or doctor.
> 
> Plus, remember that not everyone's body dilates to 10cm. Some dilate to 9. Some dilate to 12. There's no set rule - just a bunch of jargon some doctors made up that is practically irrelevant because seriously... HOW do you measure 10cm with one hand. It's all guesswork.
> 
> My personal experience is that VE's are very uncomfortable and not worth the pain/infection risk. I am one of the unfortunate people who contracted an infection through multiple VE's. An infection that is believed to have then travelled into my daughters open spinal defect and left her with a severely life threatening infection of her own to intend with which took six weeks of intravenous antibiotics to cure.
> 
> I was checked every hour, on the hour, sat on a bed being monitored (because my baby had a severe brain disorder and the Drs didn't know how she would react to labour). I progressed VERY slowly, because frankly I was scared shitless. My waters broke by themselves but nothing happened.. I was prodded and poked and it was frankly horrific. VE's are IMO completely useless when determining a womans' progress in labour. It only tells you how far she is NOW, right this second, and even then it's an estimate, and that estimate is frankly useless.Click to expand...

im sorry for what happened with your daughter but did the lady who did the ve not wear gloves? i dont understand why it caused an infections as this sounds gross.. but people put fingers up there and dont get an infection:dohh::blush: so howcome ppl get an infection from a finger up there during labour?


----------



## youngwife20

Nikki_d72 said:


> I'm sure I read a comment from Dr Michael Odent along the lines of the spontaneous pushing reflex only really happening in an undisturbed birth situation, so it may be why some women don't get it if they are feeling observed or are not allowed by their attendants to "get in the zone" and may be why it comes on in the loo etc. There's a proper name for it but I can't remember, sorry.
> 
> EDA: Saying that, it happened to me this time even when I was willing it not to and was surrounded by 2 hospital MW's and a registrar. My body took over and pushed my babies out, although it wouldn't have taken as much as they were still so tiny, admittedly. It was a horrible feeling to have no control although it would be a great one in a normal birthing situation, it's a hideous paradox for me. BUT when I think about it I never called for help until I was pretty much at that stage as I was in denial that I was in labour at all so I did labour alone and undisturbed, really. I tried every trick in the book that I'd learned about undisturbed labour and reversed it to stop it - I kept the lights on bright, kept myself full of fear (not hard, that), lay on my back to keep pressure off my cervix etc etc. I was afraid every night as I knew that most of us labour at night. Maybe that is what delayed labour for those 6 days, who knows. The stupid registrar discounted being upright and moving around to apply pressure on the cervix to help dilation as "wives tales, midwives tales", I felt like clocking her and it was her that was on call the night I went into labour too, oh joy.

thank you for answerng :) xx:hugs:


----------



## youngwife20

Thank you to every single lady that responded! i am glad i know alot of the facts! i think il still go ahead with the VES see what experiance i have with it. seen as its my first. if i dont like it i wont have it with my future pregnancys. but i for sure wont let anyone force me into a ve if i am against it at the time , it feels good to know more info about this :)


----------



## Nikki_d72

youngwife20 said:


> Tegans Mama said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> diz said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mellybelle said:
> 
> 
> Believe me hun, when its time to start pushing, you'll know!!! No one will need to tell you, your body starts to do it on its own and you have no choice but to join in.
> 
> This didn't happen for me. I think i was fully dilated for a while before i was told "Common Andrea - push this baby out"
> 
> I didnt have any drugs or even G&A during my labour. I know a couple of other girls who also didn't get that over whelming urge to push. Im hoping i'll experience that this time round.Click to expand...
> 
> From what I've read, it's perfectly normal not to feel an urge to push right away. I know a woman who was fully dilated for over 90 minutes before she felt anything. She had a good MW, a supportive doula, and they just waited. Because really, there's no need to rush it, is there? Her body was quite obviously not ready to birth the baby yet. The only people who would've rushed it out were the MW or doctor.
> 
> Plus, remember that not everyone's body dilates to 10cm. Some dilate to 9. Some dilate to 12. There's no set rule - just a bunch of jargon some doctors made up that is practically irrelevant because seriously... HOW do you measure 10cm with one hand. It's all guesswork.
> 
> My personal experience is that VE's are very uncomfortable and not worth the pain/infection risk. I am one of the unfortunate people who contracted an infection through multiple VE's. An infection that is believed to have then travelled into my daughters open spinal defect and left her with a severely life threatening infection of her own to intend with which took six weeks of intravenous antibiotics to cure.
> 
> I was checked every hour, on the hour, sat on a bed being monitored (because my baby had a severe brain disorder and the Drs didn't know how she would react to labour). I progressed VERY slowly, because frankly I was scared shitless. My waters broke by themselves but nothing happened.. I was prodded and poked and it was frankly horrific. VE's are IMO completely useless when determining a womans' progress in labour. It only tells you how far she is NOW, right this second, and even then it's an estimate, and that estimate is frankly useless.Click to expand...
> 
> im sorry for what happened with your daughter but did the lady who did the ve not wear gloves? i dont understand why it caused an infections as this sounds gross.. but people put fingers up there and dont get an infection:dohh::blush: so howcome ppl get an infection from a finger up there during labour?Click to expand...

Hi, Gloves are not actually sterile and much of the bacteria that would cause infection would either come from the hospital environment or from the woman's own vaginal bacterial flora. It's normally not able to track upwards partly because the vagina will self clean "downwards and out" so anything going upwards creates some risk of infection and in labour the mucous plug that seals the cervix and prevents bacteria entering the uterus will have come away, leaving the route open for bacteria to track upwards. Also as the cervix dilates this route becomes more and more open to bacterial infections, obviously. The biggest risk comes after the membranes have been ruptured, as then the baby no longer has it's sterile protective environment and I would really advise against digital cervical examinations after this point, or at least keep them to a minimum. 

The biggest reason I'd give though for not allowing them is that they are not neccessary, don't tell you anything useful and the hospital will have you "on the clock" from then on in, and if you don't dilate at their prescribed speed, they will want to augment your labour with synthetic oxytocin and if that still doesn't work satisfactorily enough then they will start talking C-Section.

HTH


----------



## madasa

youngwife20 said:


> Tegans Mama said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> diz said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mellybelle said:
> 
> 
> Believe me hun, when its time to start pushing, you'll know!!! No one will need to tell you, your body starts to do it on its own and you have no choice but to join in.
> 
> This didn't happen for me. I think i was fully dilated for a while before i was told "Common Andrea - push this baby out"
> 
> I didnt have any drugs or even G&A during my labour. I know a couple of other girls who also didn't get that over whelming urge to push. Im hoping i'll experience that this time round.Click to expand...
> 
> From what I've read, it's perfectly normal not to feel an urge to push right away. I know a woman who was fully dilated for over 90 minutes before she felt anything. She had a good MW, a supportive doula, and they just waited. Because really, there's no need to rush it, is there? Her body was quite obviously not ready to birth the baby yet. The only people who would've rushed it out were the MW or doctor.
> 
> Plus, remember that not everyone's body dilates to 10cm. Some dilate to 9. Some dilate to 12. There's no set rule - just a bunch of jargon some doctors made up that is practically irrelevant because seriously... HOW do you measure 10cm with one hand. It's all guesswork.
> 
> My personal experience is that VE's are very uncomfortable and not worth the pain/infection risk. I am one of the unfortunate people who contracted an infection through multiple VE's. An infection that is believed to have then travelled into my daughters open spinal defect and left her with a severely life threatening infection of her own to intend with which took six weeks of intravenous antibiotics to cure.
> 
> I was checked every hour, on the hour, sat on a bed being monitored (because my baby had a severe brain disorder and the Drs didn't know how she would react to labour). I progressed VERY slowly, because frankly I was scared shitless. My waters broke by themselves but nothing happened.. I was prodded and poked and it was frankly horrific. VE's are IMO completely useless when determining a womans' progress in labour. It only tells you how far she is NOW, right this second, and even then it's an estimate, and that estimate is frankly useless.Click to expand...
> 
> im sorry for what happened with your daughter but did the lady who did the ve not wear gloves? i dont understand why it caused an infections as this sounds gross.. but people put fingers up there and dont get an infection:dohh::blush: so howcome ppl get an infection from a finger up there during labour?Click to expand...

Your own fingers are different. They are your OWN germs ;) But if your waters have gone, you shouldn't really be putting your own fingers up there either! Even if they wear gloves, it is still not a great idea. There are bacteria in your vagina - that is normal. The birth canal normally kind of self-cleans downward. When you start poking things UP there during labour you poke bacteria further up and further in. 

The fact that it is your first pregnancy has nothing to do with it. You could have ten babies, you only ever get to birth each one once.


----------



## PJ32

youngwife20 said:


> PJ32 said:
> 
> 
> I remember as clear as day the first VE with my first, I nearly shot through the roof, the midwife was evil. I was young and hadn't got the guts to say no, i thought it was part of the course. with my 2nd i was a little wiser, had one when i first got in and refused any more, i had no pain meds and a wonderful labour. needless to say this time round i am hoping for the same lol
> 
> may i ask how old you were the first time? and so you think not having anymore helped your labour process? thanks for answeringClick to expand...

Sorry for the delay in responding. I was 21 at the time, I had been induced which looking back wasn't needed. I had a terrible labour which i ended up having an Epi which resulted in a ventouse delivery. I did use the VE as a bargaining tool to get the epi. She wasn't coming anywhere near me again until i was thoroughly numb. 

With my 2nd i had one only right at the start when I was 4 cm and that was it. I now have a phobia of VE and the less the better!

Oh I forgot to add, my first labour 12 hours with 2 of pushing, and my 2nd 4 hours with 20 mins of pushing. I was alot calmer with my 2nd which i think helped.


----------



## youngwife20

madasa said:


> youngwife20 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tegans Mama said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> diz said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mellybelle said:
> 
> 
> Believe me hun, when its time to start pushing, you'll know!!! No one will need to tell you, your body starts to do it on its own and you have no choice but to join in.
> 
> This didn't happen for me. I think i was fully dilated for a while before i was told "Common Andrea - push this baby out"
> 
> I didnt have any drugs or even G&A during my labour. I know a couple of other girls who also didn't get that over whelming urge to push. Im hoping i'll experience that this time round.Click to expand...
> 
> From what I've read, it's perfectly normal not to feel an urge to push right away. I know a woman who was fully dilated for over 90 minutes before she felt anything. She had a good MW, a supportive doula, and they just waited. Because really, there's no need to rush it, is there? Her body was quite obviously not ready to birth the baby yet. The only people who would've rushed it out were the MW or doctor.
> 
> Plus, remember that not everyone's body dilates to 10cm. Some dilate to 9. Some dilate to 12. There's no set rule - just a bunch of jargon some doctors made up that is practically irrelevant because seriously... HOW do you measure 10cm with one hand. It's all guesswork.
> 
> My personal experience is that VE's are very uncomfortable and not worth the pain/infection risk. I am one of the unfortunate people who contracted an infection through multiple VE's. An infection that is believed to have then travelled into my daughters open spinal defect and left her with a severely life threatening infection of her own to intend with which took six weeks of intravenous antibiotics to cure.
> 
> I was checked every hour, on the hour, sat on a bed being monitored (because my baby had a severe brain disorder and the Drs didn't know how she would react to labour). I progressed VERY slowly, because frankly I was scared shitless. My waters broke by themselves but nothing happened.. I was prodded and poked and it was frankly horrific. VE's are IMO completely useless when determining a womans' progress in labour. It only tells you how far she is NOW, right this second, and even then it's an estimate, and that estimate is frankly useless.Click to expand...
> 
> im sorry for what happened with your daughter but did the lady who did the ve not wear gloves? i dont understand why it caused an infections as this sounds gross.. but people put fingers up there and dont get an infection:dohh::blush: so howcome ppl get an infection from a finger up there during labour?Click to expand...
> 
> Your own fingers are different. They are your OWN germs ;) But if your waters have gone, you shouldn't really be putting your own fingers up there either! Even if they wear gloves, it is still not a great idea. There are bacteria in your vagina - that is normal. The birth canal normally kind of self-cleans downward. When you start poking things UP there during labour you poke bacteria further up and further in.
> 
> The fact that it is your first pregnancy has nothing to do with it. You could have ten babies, you only ever get to birth each one once.Click to expand...

What i was saying about it being my first baby, is i havent experianced it for myself, and i am taking everyones opinion into consideration but i also know people nothing bad has happened from it, so i would like to experiance it for myself this first time then make my decision for further pregnancys.


----------



## madasa

I know what you meant :) Still - each baby is different, so each birth is different too! My second was totally different from my first and I expect my third will be different again. Listen to your gut. Your instinct is as good as anyone's, no matter how many babies they have had. :)


----------



## Rmar

I didn't have a VE at any point during pregnancy or labour. During our birth plan meeting the midwife told me that she only does them if things seem to be progressing slowly with the mother getting tired and it is a starting point for whether they transfer or keep plugging along. It is mostly for the woman to gauge where she is at and how she feels and pretty much only relevent to the midwife by knowing how the woman feels about it.

I can think of a few benefits to vaginal exams. If things are progressing slowly, a midwife may perferm a VE and notice scar tissue that can be broken up by gentle massage of the cervix which is usually enough to speed things along. VE's can also assess presentation of the baby during labour. The benefit of this being if the amniotic sac breaks and there is a risk of a cord prolaspe. But I am certain there are other warning signs that don't involve VE's. Palpatation can be done closer to term to check if the baby is cephalic and engaging.

I haven't had a chance to read the whole thread so sorry if I am reposting but here is a imformative article:

https://www.bellybelly.com.au/pregnancy/vaginal-exams

And another:
https://find.galegroup.com.ezproxy1.acu.edu.au/gtx/infomark.do?&contentSet=IAC-Documents&type=retrieve&tabID=T003&prodId=AONE&docId=A65859208&source=gale&srcprod=AONE&userGroupName=acuni&version=1.0

With this one, I have been logged into sites looking at research so hopefully this is a open access article. If so, it is called 'SECOND STAGE: AN ARTIFICIAL DIVISION.' by Alicia Huntly. I find it relevent to how VE's are so often used.


----------



## FeistyMom

I think VEs are really one of those personal choice type things. For me, I know I will definitely want to have one when I first go in, because I have a tendency to not show as many signs at the beginning of active labor, and it can be quite useful to 'prove' to the nursing staff that you are, in fact, in labor. I don't know that I would actually be admitted otherwise.

I also had the urge to push too soon with both of my daughters, and had to practice panting/blowing to avoid it. I dilated *very* quickly from 8-10 with both girls, approximately 30 minutes, but from 8 on, my body wanted to push. You can get the urge too soon, and that can slow your labor by putting more pressure on the cervix and causing it to swell. You can also end up with internal tears.

Compared to the feelings of labor and delivery, I did not find the VEs to be painful though - I wouldn't say I enjoyed them, they are definitely uncomfortable, but just not even in the same range of discomfort as contractions.

That said, I feel no need to be checked hourly. Once at the beginning, and then towards the end when I may start getting urges to push will be all that I'm expecting/wanting this time around. If I hadn't had the experience with starting to push too soon, I wouldn't even feel the 2nd check was particularly necessary.

Intermittant fetal monitoring (NOT continuous) can be a better indicator if you need an intervention than how quickly your cervix dilates for sure - so if it does seem like you've been in labor for a looong time but still no need to push, the fetal monitoring can help you know if baby is in distress or not. And if the baby isn't in distress, I think that helps calm mom down too :) I know it does for me!


----------



## sam#3

I dont know if it has been posted already but this is a GREAT read 

https://wonderfullymadebelliesandba...7/dilation-how-to-check-without-checking.html


----------



## youngwife20

Rmar said:


> I didn't have a VE at any point during pregnancy or labour. During our birth plan meeting the midwife told me that she only does them if things seem to be progressing slowly with the mother getting tired and it is a starting point for whether they transfer or keep plugging along. It is mostly for the woman to gauge where she is at and how she feels and pretty much only relevent to the midwife by knowing how the woman feels about it.
> 
> I can think of a few benefits to vaginal exams. If things are progressing slowly, a midwife may perferm a VE and notice scar tissue that can be broken up by gentle massage of the cervix which is usually enough to speed things along. VE's can also assess presentation of the baby during labour. The benefit of this being if the amniotic sac breaks and there is a risk of a cord prolaspe. But I am certain there are other warning signs that don't involve VE's. Palpatation can be done closer to term to check if the baby is cephalic and engaging.
> 
> I haven't had a chance to read the whole thread so sorry if I am reposting but here is a imformative article:
> 
> https://www.bellybelly.com.au/pregnancy/vaginal-exams
> 
> And another:
> https://find.galegroup.com.ezproxy1.acu.edu.au/gtx/infomark.do?&contentSet=IAC-Documents&type=retrieve&tabID=T003&prodId=AONE&docId=A65859208&source=gale&srcprod=AONE&userGroupName=acuni&version=1.0
> 
> With this one, I have been logged into sites looking at research so hopefully this is a open access article. If so, it is called 'SECOND STAGE: AN ARTIFICIAL DIVISION.' by Alicia Huntly. I find it relevent to how VE's are so often used.

thank you very much! :) very helpful xx


----------



## youngwife20

FeistyMom said:


> I think VEs are really one of those personal choice type things. For me, I know I will definitely want to have one when I first go in, because I have a tendency to not show as many signs at the beginning of active labor, and it can be quite useful to 'prove' to the nursing staff that you are, in fact, in labor. I don't know that I would actually be admitted otherwise.
> 
> I also had the urge to push too soon with both of my daughters, and had to practice panting/blowing to avoid it. I dilated *very* quickly from 8-10 with both girls, approximately 30 minutes, but from 8 on, my body wanted to push. You can get the urge too soon, and that can slow your labor by putting more pressure on the cervix and causing it to swell. You can also end up with internal tears.
> 
> Compared to the feelings of labor and delivery, I did not find the VEs to be painful though - I wouldn't say I enjoyed them, they are definitely uncomfortable, but just not even in the same range of discomfort as contractions.
> 
> That said, I feel no need to be checked hourly. Once at the beginning, and then towards the end when I may start getting urges to push will be all that I'm expecting/wanting this time around. If I hadn't had the experience with starting to push too soon, I wouldn't even feel the 2nd check was particularly necessary.
> 
> Intermittant fetal monitoring (NOT continuous) can be a better indicator if you need an intervention than how quickly your cervix dilates for sure - so if it does seem like you've been in labor for a looong time but still no need to push, the fetal monitoring can help you know if baby is in distress or not. And if the baby isn't in distress, I think that helps calm mom down too :) I know it does for me!


thanks for answering! see i knew ppl can feel the urge to push to soon but people keep saying " ur body will only get the urge when the time is right its womanly nature etc" i think they say that because they knew when to push but thanks for saying that because now i know for sure i was right lol, i havent had a baby before so i wont know if i feel the need to push primaturely etc so it would comfort me to know when is right to push! :)


----------



## deafgal

When I gave birth, they were totally unexpecting it. I went from zero dilation (when my water broke) to "Gotta push NOW" in three hours. The doctor felt like she did not have time to stretch my area so I had a tear and needed stitches. Not sure if checking would have helped or not.


----------



## Rachiebaby24

My mum got an infection when pg with my sister from having a sweep and I just hate any kind of vaginal examination and only have ten when I have to such as a smear. I just find them really invasive


----------



## madasa

When the MW arrived, she checked me. I was about 4, maybe 5. I got in the pool soon after. I started feeling "pushy". I wanted to push, ergo I pushed. Exactly as much as I felt like and was comfy. No checking dilation, no panting or blowing to avoid it. I just went with it. The urge is there for a reason, no? ;)


----------



## youngwife20

madasa- yes but because get the urges at the wrong time as said by a few ladies above :)


----------



## madasa

Why was the urge at the "wrong" time? What harm would come from following this urge? When is the "right" time? Who decides? Based on what? If SO MANY women get these urges at the "wrong" time - is it really wrong? Or is it normal? That was my point :)


----------



## youngwife20

Well i was reading this story on here from a midwife and she said the woman was pushing from really early on and it was the WRONG time and the baby ended up being really distressed so it did cause risk to the child. so maybe not usualy but it can be risky pushing too early. and seen as like women have said above some people dont get the feeling when its time to push.. i dont know.


----------



## youngwife20

im no doctor or whatever so.. i dont know. all i know is some people dont get the urge to push at all so some checks may be good for some women not for others. thats it really.


----------



## jennijunni

Because they are painful, and not needed. And every time someone sticks their fingers into your vagina during labor, you increase the chances of introducing bacteria that does not need to be there. And did I mention at the end, they are excrutiatingly painful. Plus once you learn your body, you will know how far along you are without VE's. Read up on the signs of transition, and trust me, you will know when you are going through transition, and when you are complete. It is amazing how your body will do the same thing. GL!!


----------



## Blah11

I wasnt aware of going through transition but by god i knew when i had to push. My body did it spontaneously.


----------



## Mum2b_Claire

I had to really, really force pushing. There was no spontaneity to it at all. My contractions were really weak at that point too. I knew I was fully dilated because I'd had my waters broken by the MW to try and ramp up the contractions a bit, I don't know now whether I should have waited until I got the urge or what.


----------



## madasa

When your body starts pushing - REALLY pushing - there is no way to stop it. Regardless of how dilated you are, or whether someone "official" has given you "permission". It is really quite ludicrous. I'm not a doctor either, but I know you don't seek permission to vomit, you don't seek permission to empty your bowels and you don't seek permission to pull your hand away from something burning hot. These are built-in reflexes, they don't operate on command, for the convenience of people with medical degrees. 

It is also normal to not-feel a pushing urge when fully dilated. Some call it the "rest and be thankful" stage. It's Nature's way of giving mothers a rest after the hard work of labour, so she will have the energy to complete the hard work of birth.


----------

