# Chinese Accupuncture



## Plenora

Has anyone tried accupuncture and or herbs or known anyone that has and then got pregnant? Just going for my second session tomorrow night and really hoping it helps! Also taking disgusting tasting herbs twice a day. So far I've noticed improvement to my digestion and as I'm now at the midway point yesterday I had LOTS of EWCM. So much so I was shocked. Its never been so abundant. Its no magic pill I know as sperm still has to reach egg but I think it just helps to know I'm taking some sort of action and not just sitting around waiting! 

Any positive stories out there?No negative stuff though I'm thinking that even if this works like a placebo then that'll do for me!


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## gustav72

I have two friends who went to a fertility acupuncturist when TTC and it was helpful to them for sure. I go to acupuncture for generalized wellness and will start fertility acupuncture shortly. My friend, who went to acupuncture when TTC, sent me this book "The Infertility Cure" by Randine Lewis, Ph.D. Her acupuncturist recommended it to her during her treatment. I would talk to your acupuncturist about this book to see if it's something he/she recommends for you. It's a Chinese wellness approach to getting pregnant and quite interesting. Acupuncture is certainly a different approach than Western Medicine, but I think if you are open to it and you have a good acupuncturist, it can be a good alternative. Good luck!


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## Plenora

Thanks Gustav, fingers crossed it works for both of us. I'm enjoying the other benefits anyway so it's definately worth doing :thumbup:


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## gustav72

Hi Plenora, Checking in to see if you are still doing acupuncture? I am now on daily herbs and put on a strict diet by my acupuncturist....


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## vkj73

i received acup. treatments with our first.
i was 36 at the time.

i did four rounds, and fell/got pregnant the following month.

i also took herbs and followed their diet recommendation: lots of warming foods (think soups/stews), no ice, nothing cold, dark leafy greens.

i really believe in it. i just did 2 sessions recently, as we are ttc for #2.

good luck!

:dust:


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## SabrinaKat

I did 4 months of acupuncture (about 15 sessions+) prior to possible IVF; we got pregnant naturally the month after I finished (and the month we were hoping to do our first IVF cycle) and LO was born in early February 2012. At the same time, we were doing loads of blood work, losing weight, etc., so the acupuncture was part of the whole process (also, discovered I had an underactive thyroid, so was put on meds for that); I do recommend it as it definitely relaxed me alot...

best wishes

ps. I tried the herbs in a tea, but it was disgusting, so didn't do for more than a few days!


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## Juniperjules

Plenora said:


> Has anyone tried accupuncture and or herbs or known anyone that has and then got pregnant? Just going for my second session tomorrow night and really hoping it helps! Also taking disgusting tasting herbs twice a day. So far I've noticed improvement to my digestion and as I'm now at the midway point yesterday I had LOTS of EWCM. So much so I was shocked. Its never been so abundant. Its no magic pill I know as sperm still has to reach egg but I think it just helps to know I'm taking some sort of action and not just sitting around waiting!
> 
> Any positive stories out there?No negative stuff though I'm thinking that even if this works like a placebo then that'll do for me!

Hi, how r u going with the Chinese medicines? 
I just saw a woman yesterday & have come home with a bag full of herbal goodies! ....and a REALLY foul tea that I have to have twice a day!! 

I decided to see this woman bcos my friend saw her after five years of TTC, clomid & one failed IVF cycle. This woman gave her herbs & things, told her not to drink ANY cola (she even asks you on her form if you drink cola).. And my friend fell pregnant on the next IVF cycle!!! She swears it was the Chinese medicine that did it. She went to this woman because a woman she worked withs daughter also got pregnant with her help. She specialises in fertility & pregnancy support. 

So I've decided to give it a try. I'm 37 & TTC #1, & figured this could be helpful & get my body into optimum shape to conceive! 

Fingers crossed!


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## Bonnie1990

I am almost 40. TTC since jan. staring my 4th cycle of acu 2x a month (pre ov and pre af) 
Have not yet tried herbs but totally believe in acupuncture!
Fx'd!


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## gustav72

Good to hear everyone's good experiences....I'm on herbs and on a strict diet of warming foods, no cold foods, no gluten, no refined sugar and no dairy, also minimizing soy intake. I'm hoping it works!


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## vkj73

gustav72 said:


> Good to hear everyone's good experiences....I'm on herbs and on a strict diet of warming foods, no cold foods, no gluten, no refined sugar and no dairy, also minimizing soy intake. I'm hoping it works!

that's exactly what i did with our first. i didn't even take ice in drinks.

good luck! :thumbup:


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## Ready4thebun

Plenora said:


> Has anyone tried accupuncture and or herbs or known anyone that has and then got pregnant? Just going for my second session tomorrow night and really hoping it helps! Also taking disgusting tasting herbs twice a day. So far I've noticed improvement to my digestion and as I'm now at the midway point yesterday I had LOTS of EWCM. So much so I was shocked. Its never been so abundant. Its no magic pill I know as sperm still has to reach egg but I think it just helps to know I'm taking some sort of action and not just sitting around waiting!
> 
> Any positive stories out there?No negative stuff though I'm thinking that even if this works like a placebo then that'll do for me!

Just had my second treatment today. I'm hopeful :)


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## Juniperjules

Im still taking herbal pills, about 16 per day plus the herbal tea too. I've also now started having acupuncture too. have had 2 acupuncture sessions thus far, am having it weekly. We're trying to improve my circulation & improve my sluggish digestion! And hopefully a benefit of that will be getting a BFP!


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## vkj73

i had my 2nd treatment this cycle last saturday.

they gave me pre-ov and post-ov herbs.

i'm not quite sure if i've ov'ed yet, so i'm going to see what the
cbfm says tomorrow. i'm on cd24 and it's still showing a low.

i'll give it a couple of days, and if there's no high or peak, i'll start taking the post-ov herbs regardless...just in case we caught it.:winkwink:


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## iwantineed

Juniperjules said:


> Plenora said:
> 
> 
> Has anyone tried accupuncture and or herbs or known anyone that has and then got pregnant? Just going for my second session tomorrow night and really hoping it helps! Also taking disgusting tasting herbs twice a day. So far I've noticed improvement to my digestion and as I'm now at the midway point yesterday I had LOTS of EWCM. So much so I was shocked. Its never been so abundant. Its no magic pill I know as sperm still has to reach egg but I think it just helps to know I'm taking some sort of action and not just sitting around waiting!
> 
> Any positive stories out there?No negative stuff though I'm thinking that even if this works like a placebo then that'll do for me!
> 
> Hi, how r u going with the Chinese medicines?
> I just saw a woman yesterday & have come home with a bag full of herbal goodies! ....and a REALLY foul tea that I have to have twice a day!!
> 
> I decided to see this woman bcos my friend saw her after five years of TTC, clomid & one failed IVF cycle. This woman gave her herbs & things, told her not to drink ANY cola (she even asks you on her form if you drink cola).. And my friend fell pregnant on the next IVF cycle!!! She swears it was the Chinese medicine that did it. She went to this woman because a woman she worked withs daughter also got pregnant with her help. She specialises in fertility & pregnancy support.
> 
> So I've decided to give it a try. I'm 37 & TTC #1, & figured this could be helpful & get my body into optimum shape to conceive!
> 
> Fingers crossed!Click to expand...

Hi - how have you got on?? im doing acupunture and drinking the foul tea (makes me gag!) would be intresting to hear where you are up to!


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## Briss

I started acupuncture yesterday, finally found a good Chinese doctor that I can trust so will be doing it once a week. they also gave my hubby some herbs for sperm count but so far I was unable to persuade him to take them. I also drink their foul tea but only before O and not everyday as find it really disgusting. I am hoping acupuncture can help prepare my body for pregnancy and IVF


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## MalaMae

Hi ladies! Mind if I join? :)

We're ttc for 2.5 years and started acupuncture 4 weeks ago. We were diagnosed with unexplained infertility, so doctors could only suggest IUI and IVF which we refused since all tests came out ok (see the signature below).
So 5 weeks ago client of mine told me their story i.e. their struggle with infertility where the doctors told them 100% no chance of having kids, but after seeing the acupuncturist (don't know for how long) they conceived. Today they have 3 kids.
I'm seeing the same acupuncturist and he pinpointed the problems (he asked a lot of questions): cold feet and hands=> bad circulation=> ovaries not working well thus small follicles (creating immature eggs), periods with clots meaning stagnant blood in uterus- the uterus not getting enough blood creating implantation problems.
Although I should be sad, this past month (after finishing the 4th session) for the first time in my life I experienced a chemical pregnancy (I've never been pregnant or had miscarriage before). That's why I believe things are starting to change to better and I think I'm close.
He also gave me herbs in form of pills for each phase: for releasing stagnant blood, for strengthening the ovaries and ovulation and for helping implantation (he asked me if I want powder or pills and knowing how awful it may taste, I choose pills) :)
I'm having a lot of hopes for November.

P.S. Sorry for the long elaboration :)


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## vkj73

malamae,
i truly believe acupuncture helped with our first.

as recommended, i stuck to a strict diet of "warming" foods:
soups, spicy, stews, beans, eggs, and dark leafy greens.

i didn't eat/drink any soy products (i'm a vegetarian) and didn't eat any cold/icy foods (ice water, ice creams, and other cold foods).

i too took the herbal pills rather than boiling the herbs.

good luck to you and all!!!:thumbup:


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## Blythe

Briss said:


> I started acupuncture yesterday, finally found a good Chinese doctor that I can trust so will be doing it once a week. they also gave my hubby some herbs for sperm count but so far I was unable to persuade him to take them. I also drink their foul tea but only before O and not everyday as find it really disgusting. I am hoping acupuncture can help prepare my body for pregnancy and IVF

Hi briss.where did you find new doc? Did he give you raw herbs or tabs for your dh? I'm having no treatments this cycle but feeling hopeful ( despite overkill on booze at weekend!). GL x


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## Briss

MalaMae, that's very interesting about your doctor. mine also asked me about my period but she did not explain that having periods with clots means stagnant blood in uterus. Do clots also mean that the uterus is not getting enough blood? What did your doctor recommend about clots? To be honest I thought clots were normal I have them every time for a day or two. Can you tell us what pills are you taking for each phase? is it something that they make themselves or you can buy it elsewhere? I am asking because they sold me various herbs in form of pills which are much cheaper if you buy them online.

Blythe, the doctor recommended these herbs for hubby's low sperm count 
https://www.google.co.uk/imgres?q=s...w=157&start=0&ndsp=19&ved=1t:429,r:0,s:0,i:69 

I bought them for 40 pounds (she gave me 20% discount) but apparently you can get them for 30 pounds on line. She also wanted to prepare tea for him but I am quite sure he is not going to take it so did not want to waste 42 pounds a week on this. The doctor is in Uxbridge so quite a long way from me but I think it's worth it because my friend's family have been going to her for years and are quite happy with her treatments. She does not specialise in fertility though and also there is a language barrier for example It was quite tricky to explain to her what FSH is. She also suggested that I should take their herb tea but I still have some from my visit to a different Chinese doctor 6 months ago. I barely manage to force myself to drink it 2-3 times per cycle. I think acupuncture is the key really.


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## MalaMae

Briss said:


> MalaMae, that's very interesting about your doctor. mine also asked me about my period but she did not explain that having periods with clots means stagnant blood in uterus. Do clots also mean that the uterus is not getting enough blood? What did your doctor recommend about clots? To be honest I thought clots were normal I have them every time for a day or two. Can you tell us what pills are you taking for each phase? is it something that they make themselves or you can buy it elsewhere? I am asking because they sold me various herbs in form of pills which are much cheaper if you buy them online.

I thought clots are normal too, but both the acupuncturist and my chiropractor said they are not. If I had enough blood in my uterus it would have flushed the old blood.
Currently I'm takign 2 kinds of pills: one are no name- I think he makes them and are for strengthenting the ovaries and the others are for cleaning stagnant blood ("Shao Fu Zhu Yu Wan"). After ovulation he gave me "Jingzhi Chengyun Wan".
I don't recommend doing this on your own. With chinese herbs, you must first consult your doctor/acupuncturist.

What herbs are you taking?


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## Briss

I am taking ginseng as a tonic and also tea, she made it herself so not sure what herbs exactly she mixed. I checked Shao Fu Zhu Yu Wan which seems quite good but unfortunatelly you cant take it with ginseng.


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## MalaMae

Briss said:


> I am taking ginseng as a tonic and also tea, she made it herself so not sure what herbs exactly she mixed. I checked Shao Fu Zhu Yu Wan which seems quite good but unfortunatelly you cant take it with ginseng.

Yeah, sometimes some herbs don't go well together.

Another thing, I use to take prenatal multivitamins, B complex etc. I gave up ALL of that. Apparently taking them for too long (me- 2.5 years) is not healthy (too much folic acid=> breast cancer; too much iron=> inflamation in body=> cancer)
Try googling prenatal and cancer. The acupuncturist turned my attention to this.
And when you think about it, in the past women weren't taking prenatal before becoming pregnant, but only once they became pregnant and took it for the 1st trimester only.

Sorry, don't want to freak you out, I'm just trying to be cautious.


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## Blythe

Briss said:


> MalaMae, that's very interesting about your doctor. mine also asked me about my period but she did not explain that having periods with clots means stagnant blood in uterus. Do clots also mean that the uterus is not getting enough blood? What did your doctor recommend about clots? To be honest I thought clots were normal I have them every time for a day or two. Can you tell us what pills are you taking for each phase? is it something that they make themselves or you can buy it elsewhere? I am asking because they sold me various herbs in form of pills which are much cheaper if you buy them online.
> 
> Blythe, the doctor recommended these herbs for hubby's low sperm count
> https://www.google.co.uk/imgres?q=s...w=157&start=0&ndsp=19&ved=1t:429,r:0,s:0,i:69
> 
> I bought them for 40 pounds (she gave me 20% discount) but apparently you can get them for 30 pounds on line. She also wanted to prepare tea for him but I am quite sure he is not going to take it so did not want to waste 42 pounds a week on this. The doctor is in Uxbridge so quite a long way from me but I think it's worth it because my friend's family have been going to her for years and are quite happy with her treatments. She does not specialise in fertility though and also there is a language barrier for example It was quite tricky to explain to her what FSH is. She also suggested that I should take their herb tea but I still have some from my visit to a different Chinese doctor 6 months ago. I barely manage to force myself to drink it 2-3 times per cycle. I think acupuncture is the key really.



yes the herbs make me heave! still i take powdered wheatgrass and maca in the am and it has the same effect...

I spoke with my old chinese doc and asked about blood clots and he asked how big - i said no larger than a 10pence piece and for first couple of days of cycle only - he said that is totally normal. I know the TCM diagnostics pay a lot of attention to a woman's cycle and secretions - i have lots of books on it so must check up about clotting and when its an issue.

my dh was moaning this morning saying the supplements had given him wind and were giving him other symptoms (i completely tuned off so did not hear him continue!) but honestly, I'm the one thats paying for them and doing all the obsessing so he should just shut it and eat them without moaning!

im glad you have found a good doc - the language thing can be a barrier but i believe a good doctor will know what is right for you from his examinations of your pulse, tongue, skin tone and even the tone of your voice BUT it would be nice if they were more au fait with the acronyms etc


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## vermeil

hello all of you fabolous ladies!

I'm 40 and ttc #2 for a year now. Currently on our first FIV cycle so I started doing accupuncture. I go to a clinic that specializes in fertility (they do nothing else). Though all of the visits add up (twice a week before egg extraction, before and after embryo transfer, etc etc. almost 1000$ now during our two month fiv cycle yikes!!) they do seem to know what they`re doing. They know all of the fertility lingo, ask the right questions etc. They cater each session to where you are in your cycle.

I went from huugue skeptic (i'm an engineer so very logical, fact based) so a huuuuge convert. I leave the sessions feeling soooo relaxed I can barely walk - I look drunk haha.

I'm also trying hard to follow the diet. Warm foods only. No tea at all, especially green tea (which I LOVED booo) which is considered a cold food. Only 'spicy' herbal teas. In fact she said no herbal tea at all is even better, only hot water with lemon, for the liver :nope:

There are 4 major researches on whether acupuncture helps with fertility. 2 say they do, one a little bit, the other a lot. 2 say they don`t. I`ve reviewed these and I find the samples are small and the improvements do seem a bit arbitrary. But we'll see, I'm crossing our fingers!


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## Hope3

I'm so glad this thread was so high up in the ratings. I was just about to start researching this. Saw the gynacologist last week and he said that I have unexplained infertility as my hormone levels are fine, my tubes aren't blocked and I'm ovulating. My partner's sperm are fine also, no issues there. I've noticed a lack of fertile CM over the last few months but he didn't seem bothered by that. I do have polycystic ovaries but not the syndrome. He said it was nothing to worry about.

He's going to refer us for IVF but I was thinking maybe I should try acupuncture. Any tips for finding a good practitioner in London?


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## Blythe

vermeil said:


> hello all of you fabolous ladies!
> 
> I'm 40 and ttc #2 for a year now. Currently on our first FIV cycle so I started doing accupuncture. I go to a clinic that specializes in fertility (they do nothing else). Though all of the visits add up (twice a week before egg extraction, before and after embryo transfer, etc etc. almost 1000$ now during our two month fiv cycle yikes!!) they do seem to know what they`re doing. They know all of the fertility lingo, ask the right questions etc. They cater each session to where you are in your cycle.
> 
> I went from huugue skeptic (i'm an engineer so very logical, fact based) so a huuuuge convert. I leave the sessions feeling soooo relaxed I can barely walk - I look drunk haha.
> 
> I'm also trying hard to follow the diet. Warm foods only. No tea at all, especially green tea (which I LOVED booo) which is considered a cold food. Only 'spicy' herbal teas. In fact she said no herbal tea at all is even better, only hot water with lemon, for the liver :nope:
> 
> There are 4 major researches on whether acupuncture helps with fertility. 2 say they do, one a little bit, the other a lot. 2 say they don`t. I`ve reviewed these and I find the samples are small and the improvements do seem a bit arbitrary. But we'll see, I'm crossing our fingers!

Interesting what you said about green tea....might have to reduce my intake! Bugger been chucking back the powdered maca stuff...it's like rocket fuel. So she only suggested hot water with lemon as your only drink?

It's so expensive isn't it....I'm having a break from it this month.


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## Blythe

Hope3 said:


> I'm so glad this thread was so high up in the ratings. I was just about to start researching this. Saw the gynacologist last week and he said that I have unexplained infertility as my hormone levels are fine, my tubes aren't blocked and I'm ovulating. My partner's sperm are fine also, no issues there. I've noticed a lack of fertile CM over the last few months but he didn't seem bothered by that. I do have polycystic ovaries but not the syndrome. He said it was nothing to worry about.
> 
> He's going to refer us for IVF but I was thinking maybe I should try acupuncture. Any tips for finding a good practitioner in London?

I have found that grapefruit juice and cough medicine ( containing guaifensin) helps with cm....I have been to about 4/5 different practioners in London over the years for one thing and another...I have had mixed results so would not recommend any of them especially although I did go to talk to one in balham a couple of weeks ago and got a good feeling about him so will go to him if no BFp in the next month or two. Briss is another London lady in this thread who has just started with a new London practitioner....


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## Hope3

Thanks for the grapefruit juice & cough medicine tip. Do you take it only in the run up to ovulation or throughout the cycle?


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## Blythe

Hope3 said:


> Thanks for the grapefruit juice & cough medicine tip. Do you take it only in the run up to ovulation or throughout the cycle?

Only run up to ovulation which is any day now. Only started this month and it works!


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## Briss

Hi Hope, I had a very unfortunate experience once with a Chinese clinics in London so was a bit cautions, but recently a friend recommended a Chinese doctor in Uxbridge and I had my first session on Sunday, they do not specialise in fertility though but I think Chinese medicine treats the body as a whole so anything they do will help fertility as well. She took her time to check my pulse and tongue and then said I was very stressed inside although I do not appear to be. I hope I get good results and will definitely keep you posted. One thing I noticed yesterday which was very unusual as I was seating with my bear feet on the sofa my feet were warm! and I was drinking cold GFJ! I never ever have warm feet I think (or hope) it's acu working.

I decided to just do acupuncture and force hubby to take herbs. My hubby is also complaining about vitamins and herbs while I am the one doing all the research and spending tonnes of money on them, not fair

I also drink GFJ every day up until O and take EPO. I am considering getting off my vitamins for 1-2 months and just do Chinese herbs for a change. 

Blythe, please keep me posted on your research about clots, I really want to understand whether they are an issue, I had them all my life


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## Elphabaa77

I just started acupuncture this week, so I am still relatively new to it and looking to see other women's experiences with it. I was looking through the TTC over 35 forum and found this thread. I know Mala from another thread, so have already talked a little bit to her.

My acupuncturist did not ask me about clots, so now I am VERY curious too. I have always had a heavy AF with quite a bit of clots. I did not realize that could be old blood not being flushed out? My understanding was that the spotting I had 2-3 days prior to AF was old blood. I haven't had spotting at all the past 2 cycles which I thank the pregnitude supplement I take for helping that. My acupuncturist is not Chinese, but he is very knowledgeable. He made it clear that he thought I was on a bunch of 'junk' but since my general practitioner and my OBGYN were the ones to put me on the meds I take, he was not going to tell me to stop them. He also mentioned that prenatal vitamins are just mainstreamed junk. Again, he did not tell me to stop taking them, but made it very clear that it would not be his recommendation.

I went to see him for help with weight loss and with fertility. He told me that we could address them both at the same time to get me pregnant and the boost in metabolism I will get from being pregnant will help me lose weight. He said there was nothing wrong with me (at my size) losing 30lbs during pregnancy. He has seen it numerous times and the women went on to deliver healthy babies. It was refreshing for once to not have a doctor lecture me on how I need to lose weight. I started to get down on myself about it, and he joked with me... he said 'You need to lose weight... OH WAIT, you already know that!' and he laughed. So, he wants to address the fertility now and work on getting my cycles completely regulated and getting us pregnant.

He gave me a lot of hope and put my mind at ease. So, if nothing else, I am believer in acupuncture putting my mind at ease and helping me to relax!


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## Elphabaa77

Oh, and he was also a firm believer in sipping on warm water all day and trying to drink half your body weight in water each day. He said it can help the body in many ways and drinking it warm (he referred to warm as the temperature you would take your tea) is the best way.


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## vkj73

elphabaa77,
i am a believer of acupuncture. i truly believe it was a major
factor for conceiving our first.

i have done a few rounds the last 2-3 cycles, and have decided to take a break.
not because i've stopped believing, but primarily because it gets expensive, and i wanted to take a break from thinking about ttc throughout the day. i was taking herbs 3xs a day.

i really enjoyed the relaxation factor and getting solid advice on diet (i.e. eating warming foods).

good luck!:dust:


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## Briss

Blythe said:


> I spoke with my old chinese doc and asked about blood clots and he asked how big - i said no larger than a 10pence piece and for first couple of days of cycle only - he said that is totally normal. I know the TCM diagnostics pay a lot of attention to a woman's cycle and secretions - i have lots of books on it so must check up about clotting and when its an issue.

I had my second acu session today and asked the doctor about clots, she said it means poor blood circulation but acu and herbs should help. from this week I decided to take chinese herbs instead of my vitamins.


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## Hope3

I've found the Acupuncture Fertility Network website. I've got a week to go before I find out whether I'm pregnant or not. If it doesn't happen this cycle then I'll go to one of the acupuncturists on the list.


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## Blythe

Briss said:


> Blythe said:
> 
> 
> I spoke with my old chinese doc and asked about blood clots and he asked how big - i said no larger than a 10pence piece and for first couple of days of cycle only - he said that is totally normal. I know the TCM diagnostics pay a lot of attention to a woman's cycle and secretions - i have lots of books on it so must check up about clotting and when its an issue.
> 
> I had my second acu session today and asked the doctor about clots, she said it means poor blood circulation but acu and herbs should help. from this week I decided to take chinese herbs instead of my vitamins.Click to expand...

Hi Briss - i have been having a look through my books on TCM and cycles and, more to the point, clotting! My understanding through conversations with TCM practitioners and through my own reading is that smallish bright red clots are a normal part of the cycle - sometimes i get them sometimes i don't (or at least don't notice them) - i think they are more of a concern if they are darker in colour or larger clots [obviously big caveat is that tcm diagnostics is unique to each person so the following may not apply for all girls with clotting - speak to a professional bla bla bla] - Dark Clots in menstrual blood - Ordinarily women don't worry about dark clots in their blood, but in oriental medicine, the clots are a sign that all is not well with the liver qi..... 
maybe due to the following:

stagnant qi and blood - often due to nervous stress or emotional depression - may notice distended pain in chest and breasts, scanty blood with dark purple clots and an irregular cycle.

stagnant cold and damp - inhibits smooth flow of qi and blood causing blockage and pain - accompanying symptoms are a pale complexion, cold hands and feet, scanty flow with purple clots and a delayed cycle. caused by poor diet, excessive ingestion of cold/raw food and drinks or catching a chill when you are cold and wet during period. - hot water bottle at night - keep nice and warm - i have been told to keep feet in bowl of nice warm water in evening and use hot water bottle on belly - warming/easy to digest foods 

stagnant liver qi and blood - can cause blood to sit and congeal rather than flow out freely and smoothly - dark clots result of stagnant liver qi that lead to liver blood stagnation - old blood that has been blocked and lying stagnant in the body will appear dark purple, or sometimes blackish with thick clots.
perhaps due to stagnant food in intestines due to overeating, stagnant blood due to trauma, long-term blood deficiency and dampness can all impede qis flow. - signs of qi congestion & liver stagnation are: feeling of fullness or discomfort in chest, belly or head, agitation, anger, frustration, depression, blood clots, pre-menstrual breast distention, irregular periods, and cramps at the beginning of the cycle {eeekks sounds pretty normal to me!)

advice is: warm the body with warming and nourishing foods - disperse stagnant liver qi and blood, tone and relax the liver, activate the qi. I know a lot of this stuff is done with needles and herbs but worth looking at self help stuff you can do. When i conceived my first i did qi gong - a little like tai chi. anyhow, just putting your hands over your liver and pretending its happy and smiling will help (sounds bonkers but i hope you get the idea).

I won't go on but there are other reasons such as weak spleen and one i have noticed to be a common thing here is kidney yang or jing deficiency - i think most of my treatments revolved around strengthening kidneys. I'm not so sure what they deal is if there is loads of blood and lots of larger bright red clots....


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## Blythe

Blythe said:


> Briss said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Blythe said:
> 
> 
> I spoke with my old chinese doc and asked about blood clots and he asked how big - i said no larger than a 10pence piece and for first couple of days of cycle only - he said that is totally normal. I know the TCM diagnostics pay a lot of attention to a woman's cycle and secretions - i have lots of books on it so must check up about clotting and when its an issue.
> 
> I had my second acu session today and asked the doctor about clots, she said it means poor blood circulation but acu and herbs should help. from this week I decided to take chinese herbs instead of my vitamins.Click to expand...
> 
> Hi Briss - i have been having a look through my books on TCM and cycles and, more to the point, clotting! My understanding through conversations with TCM practitioners and through my own reading is that smallish bright red clots are a normal part of the cycle - sometimes i get them sometimes i don't (or at least don't notice them) - i think they are more of a concern if they are darker in colour or larger clots [obviously big caveat is that tcm diagnostics is unique to each person so the following may not apply for all girls with clotting - speak to a professional bla bla bla] - Dark Clots in menstrual blood - Ordinarily women don't worry about dark clots in their blood, but in oriental medicine, the clots are a sign that all is not well with the liver qi.....
> maybe due to the following:
> 
> stagnant qi and blood - often due to nervous stress or emotional depression - may notice distended pain in chest and breasts, scanty blood with dark purple clots and an irregular cycle.
> 
> stagnant cold and damp - inhibits smooth flow of qi and blood causing blockage and pain - accompanying symptoms are a pale complexion, cold hands and feet, scanty flow with purple clots and a delayed cycle. caused by poor diet, excessive ingestion of cold/raw food and drinks or catching a chill when you are cold and wet during period. - hot water bottle at night - keep nice and warm - i have been told to keep feet in bowl of nice warm water in evening and use hot water bottle on belly - warming/easy to digest foods
> 
> stagnant liver qi and blood - can cause blood to sit and congeal rather than flow out freely and smoothly - dark clots result of stagnant liver qi that lead to liver blood stagnation - old blood that has been blocked and lying stagnant in the body will appear dark purple, or sometimes blackish with thick clots.
> perhaps due to stagnant food in intestines due to overeating, stagnant blood due to trauma, long-term blood deficiency and dampness can all impede qis flow. - signs of qi congestion & liver stagnation are: feeling of fullness or discomfort in chest, belly or head, agitation, anger, frustration, depression, blood clots, pre-menstrual breast distention, irregular periods, and cramps at the beginning of the cycle {eeekks sounds pretty normal to me!)
> 
> advice is: warm the body with warming and nourishing foods - disperse stagnant liver qi and blood, tone and relax the liver, activate the qi. I know a lot of this stuff is done with needles and herbs but worth looking at self help stuff you can do. When i conceived my first i did qi gong - a little like tai chi. anyhow, just putting your hands over your liver and pretending its happy and smiling will help (sounds bonkers but i hope you get the idea).
> 
> I won't go on but there are other reasons such as weak spleen and one i have noticed to be a common thing here is kidney yang or jing deficiency - i think most of my treatments revolved around strengthening kidneys. I'm not so sure what they deal is if there is loads of blood and lots of larger bright red clots....Click to expand...



theres more!

reduce intake of iced or chilled foods or drinks, especially prior to and during period
cut down on raw fruits and veg, salads, citrus fruits, soybeans and soybean products such as tofu, millet buckwheat and dairy products, 
east whole grains
eliminate very spicy foods and heavy red meats
ice cream is very bad 
dont overeat
eat more warming foods that are easy to digest - foods that tone the stomach/spleen
to activate blood in cases of blood stagnation eat well cooked eggplant, amaze, saffron, basil and chestnuts along with warming spleen strengthening foods 
to further nourish, clean and build the blood incorporate wheatgrass, spirulina, chlorophyll, blackstrap molasses, di huang, di huang and decocted longan fruit meats, dandelion, mugwort and safflower into your daily diet, sweet rice cakes, liver and kidney organ meat, congealed pork or cows blood (yummy!) and oyster are also recommended
dang gui is used to tonify the blood, regulate periods, treat dysmenorrhoea, and promote blood circulation, relieving pain caused by stagnant blood - it can be added to cooked foods or drunk as a tea with red dates, chinese liquorice, and peony root - avoid during bleeding and if pregnant - have 
recipe for broth if interested
chicken has warming properties
jasmine tea with a teaspoon of them is believed to help calm jangled hormonally out of balance nerves
epo, black current seed and borage oils are rich in GLA and can help alleviate cramps


----------



## Briss

Blythe, Thank you! that's quite a research you have done there.

my clots can be rather dark and large&#8230; I guess I have problems with liver qi (whatever it is) and of cause I have nervous stress (constantly at work) and emotional depression (due to LTTTC) but I had clots before from the very start as a teenager. I guess being stressed and depressed is just normal for me. Keeping my feet in bowl of hot water is my favourite thing! but somehow it does not seem to help with clots. I usually feel cold (hands and feet are always cold) and I find it difficult to drink cold drinks, hot herbal tea and soups are my usual.

cut down on raw fruits and veg, salads, citrus fruits &#8211; quite hard as these are supposed to be healthy options, and GFJ is a must for EWCM.

eat whole grains &#8211; I eat a lot of these 

eliminate very spicy foods and heavy red meats &#8211; easy, I do not like spicy and red meat is not my thing

no ice-cream, got it!

EPO does help with crams actually, since I started taking it I do not even remember having to take any pain killers during my period (which was a norm for me before)

what is dang gui? a herb? may be I already have it in my herb mix

I drink lots of nettles which is supposed to nourish, clean and build the blood. I tried wheatgrass and found it hard to swallow. spirulina and dandelion are actually on my list of thing to try. 

cows blood? really?

I persevere with Chinese herbs twice a day and hopefully acu will make a difference on the clots front.


----------



## Blythe

Briss said:


> Blythe, Thank you! that's quite a research you have done there.
> 
> my clots can be rather dark and large I guess I have problems with liver qi (whatever it is) and of cause I have nervous stress (constantly at work) and emotional depression (due to LTTTC) but I had clots before from the very start as a teenager. I guess being stressed and depressed is just normal for me. Keeping my feet in bowl of hot water is my favourite thing! but somehow it does not seem to help with clots. I usually feel cold (hands and feet are always cold) and I find it difficult to drink cold drinks, hot herbal tea and soups are my usual.
> 
> cut down on raw fruits and veg, salads, citrus fruits  quite hard as these are supposed to be healthy options, and GFJ is a must for EWCM.
> 
> eat whole grains  I eat a lot of these
> 
> eliminate very spicy foods and heavy red meats  easy, I do not like spicy and red meat is not my thing
> 
> no ice-cream, got it!
> 
> EPO does help with crams actually, since I started taking it I do not even remember having to take any pain killers during my period (which was a norm for me before)
> 
> what is dang gui? a herb? may be I already have it in my herb mix
> 
> I drink lots of nettles which is supposed to nourish, clean and build the blood. I tried wheatgrass and found it hard to swallow. spirulina and dandelion are actually on my list of thing to try.
> 
> cows blood? really?
> 
> I persevere with Chinese herbs twice a day and hopefully acu will make a difference on the clots front.

dang gui is a herb and it may already form part of your treatment....

i too have a fair bit of stress as a result of work (bitchy men!!) and find it hard to switch off and properly relax. in TCM the liver governs the flow of energy (qi) around the body and for the storage and release of blood around the body (the chinese understanding of blood is slightly different to western medicines - I'm sure you know all of this anyhow so sorry if sound patronising) - might be worth looking at basic qi gong (sometimes chi gung) exercises for improving liver function and movement of blood - i keep it simple and try and set aside some time to breath deeply into my tummy and focus the breath on my major organs one by one and imagine them smiling and happy (suppose yoga would have the same benefit) - i say i set aside time, but in reality i google stuff to do with getting pregnant and become stressed - duh!!!


----------



## Blythe

Briss said:


> Blythe, Thank you! that's quite a research you have done there.
> 
> my clots can be rather dark and large I guess I have problems with liver qi (whatever it is) and of cause I have nervous stress (constantly at work) and emotional depression (due to LTTTC) but I had clots before from the very start as a teenager. I guess being stressed and depressed is just normal for me. Keeping my feet in bowl of hot water is my favourite thing! but somehow it does not seem to help with clots. I usually feel cold (hands and feet are always cold) and I find it difficult to drink cold drinks, hot herbal tea and soups are my usual.
> 
> cut down on raw fruits and veg, salads, citrus fruits  quite hard as these are supposed to be healthy options, and GFJ is a must for EWCM.
> 
> eat whole grains  I eat a lot of these
> 
> eliminate very spicy foods and heavy red meats  easy, I do not like spicy and red meat is not my thing
> 
> no ice-cream, got it!
> 
> EPO does help with crams actually, since I started taking it I do not even remember having to take any pain killers during my period (which was a norm for me before)
> 
> what is dang gui? a herb? may be I already have it in my herb mix
> 
> I drink lots of nettles which is supposed to nourish, clean and build the blood. I tried wheatgrass and found it hard to swallow. spirulina and dandelion are actually on my list of thing to try.
> 
> cows blood? really?
> 
> I persevere with Chinese herbs twice a day and hopefully acu will make a difference on the clots front.



H&B do a dandelion and nettle tea - acquired taste as so many of these concoctions are though!


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## Briss

I have to say I do not really know a lot about Chinese medicine so terminology is confusing. I tried yoga but could not stick with it, was not sure I was doing it right but I guess I do need to do some kind of exercise to help with blood/energy flow and also shift some weight. Over the years I have been gradually putting on more and more and moving from size 6 to 12, not a good thing. I also added 2 extra kg since July after I quitted coffee (and replaced it with even more chocolate)


----------



## Blythe

Briss said:


> I have to say I do not really know a lot about Chinese medicine so terminology is confusing. I tried yoga but could not stick with it, was not sure I was doing it right but I guess I do need to do some kind of exercise to help with blood/energy flow and also shift some weight. Over the years I have been gradually putting on more and more and moving from size 6 to 12, not a good thing. I also added 2 extra kg since July after I quitted coffee (and replaced it with even more chocolate)



yeah i kind of put my exercise on hold as for two weeks of every month i was worried about jumping around and maybe dislodging egg so i too have been popping of a few pounds to the point where i have to readjust my jeans at the front when sitting down to accommodate my tummy. its not even mid day and i have already eaten two cakes...oh dear! went out earlier and brought lots of soup to take into work for the rest of the week and will need to keep off the chocolate as i have to remind myself it also contains caffeine. I do allow myself two cups of normal tea per day.


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## Briss

I have been off exercise since we started TTC which is well over 2 years exactly for that reason, I used to care about how I looked now I just want to my body to be pregnancy friendly that's all. I am still not even close to being overweight so nothing to worry about although DH is making various comments about me looking as if I was pregnant :( maybe before O I could take up running again. Does Chinese medicine say anything about sport?


----------



## Blythe

Briss said:


> I have been off exercise since we started TTC which is well over 2 years exactly for that reason, I used to care about how I looked now I just want to my body to be pregnancy friendly that's all. I am still not even close to being overweight so nothing to worry about although DH is making various comments about me looking as if I was pregnant :( maybe before O I could take up running again. Does Chinese medicine say anything about sport?

exercise advise is dependent upon your condition - but generally exercise is encouraged so that it leaves you energised but not exhausted. don't exercise in short, intense bursts (i used to like combat classes/spinning etc which is out) and avoid over-exercising - 30 mins 3 times per week so standard advise really.....so, try to avoid any strenuous exercise particularly during period. a good old fast paced walk/light jog around the block to move the blood around on a daily basis should do the trick and a nice daily stretch too. Post ovulation i avoid any proper full on exercise inc. jogging.....but try and do something which gets the blood circulating - more blood to uterus which is what i hope the pineapple is going to help with - when are you going to finish with the pineapple?


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## Briss

I still have 3 pineapples to go through so another 6 days which will bring me to 10DPO. Somehow I just do not think I will get pregnant this cycle I still hope but it does not feel like that so may as well eat pineapples all I want&#8230; I am still contemplating whether I should test on Saturday morning before going for acu, I am slightly concerned about electric currents going through the needles on my belly. 

jogging before O sounds like a plan for the next cycle. Something to look forward to.


----------



## Blythe

Briss said:


> I still have 3 pineapples to go through so another 6 days which will bring me to 10DPO. Somehow I just do not think I will get pregnant this cycle I still hope but it does not feel like that so may as well eat pineapples all I want I am still contemplating whether I should test on Saturday morning before going for acu, I am slightly concerned about electric currents going through the needles on my belly.
> 
> jogging before O sounds like a plan for the next cycle. Something to look forward to.

i would be a bit dubious too but so long as she knows you are in post ov phase I'm sure she knows exactly what she is doing - maybe it helps with implantation perhaps.....i feel totally the same as usual so doubt its my cycle but you never know...i suppose preg symptoms are very rare before implantation so i won't start symptom obsessing until thursday at least....I have no doubt we will both get pregnant so feeling positive about it in the long run


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## MalaMae

Blythe, thanks for the research! :)
Just be carefull what herbs you are taking because some of them can cause misscariage. We think they are harmless, like *parsley*, but in fact in unwanted pregnancieswomen are encouraged to drink/eat these herbs to miscarry naturally.
There are other herbs as well. Check these websites:
https://voices.yahoo.com/natural-abortion-inducing-miscarriage-herbs-459057.html
https://www.92024.com/herbsnpregnancy.htm


----------



## Blythe

MalaMae said:


> Blythe, thanks for the research! :)
> Just be carefull what herbs you are taking because some of them can cause misscariage. We think they are harmless, like *parsley*, but in fact in unwanted pregnancieswomen are encouraged to drink/eat these herbs to miscarry naturally.
> There are other herbs as well. Check these websites:
> https://voices.yahoo.com/natural-abortion-inducing-miscarriage-herbs-459057.html
> https://www.92024.com/herbsnpregnancy.htm

yes you are right and i would never suggest anyone take any herbs unless prescribed by someone who is authorised to do so....i cannot remember why i was taking dong quai but i was and that is when i (unexpectedly) became pregnant with my first (unexpectedly because i had given up on it happening) - i know that this herb must be used with care to as it can bring on bleeding - good if you have long cycles but i would imagine not so good in the first few weeks of pregnancy, for some at least. interesting about parsley - never knew that - thanks for links will check out now


----------



## MalaMae

Blythe said:


> MalaMae said:
> 
> 
> Blythe, thanks for the research! :)
> Just be carefull what herbs you are taking because some of them can cause misscariage. We think they are harmless, like *parsley*, but in fact in unwanted pregnancieswomen are encouraged to drink/eat these herbs to miscarry naturally.
> There are other herbs as well. Check these websites:
> https://voices.yahoo.com/natural-abortion-inducing-miscarriage-herbs-459057.html
> https://www.92024.com/herbsnpregnancy.htm
> 
> yes you are right and i would never suggest anyone take any herbs unless prescribed by someone who is authorised to do so....i cannot remember why i was taking dong quai but i was and that is when i (unexpectedly) became pregnant with my first (unexpectedly because i had given up on it happening) - i know that this herb must be used with care to as it can bring on bleeding - good if you have long cycles but i would imagine not so good in the first few weeks of pregnancy, for some at least. interesting about parsley - never knew that - thanks for links will check out nowClick to expand...

I made that mistake taking Dong Quai without consulting first and messed up my ovulation timing.:dohh: Apparently it shouldn't have done that, but I guess my body was too sensitive :growlmad:

When I read about the herbs for the first time, I freaked out and my DH found it amusing and said: "Why don't you just stop eating completely?" :haha:
Now I'm scared to have any tea after ovulation :wacko: :haha:


----------



## Blythe

MalaMae said:


> Blythe said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MalaMae said:
> 
> 
> Blythe, thanks for the research! :)
> Just be carefull what herbs you are taking because some of them can cause misscariage. We think they are harmless, like *parsley*, but in fact in unwanted pregnancieswomen are encouraged to drink/eat these herbs to miscarry naturally.
> There are other herbs as well. Check these websites:
> https://voices.yahoo.com/natural-abortion-inducing-miscarriage-herbs-459057.html
> https://www.92024.com/herbsnpregnancy.htm
> 
> yes you are right and i would never suggest anyone take any herbs unless prescribed by someone who is authorised to do so....i cannot remember why i was taking dong quai but i was and that is when i (unexpectedly) became pregnant with my first (unexpectedly because i had given up on it happening) - i know that this herb must be used with care to as it can bring on bleeding - good if you have long cycles but i would imagine not so good in the first few weeks of pregnancy, for some at least. interesting about parsley - never knew that - thanks for links will check out nowClick to expand...
> 
> I made that mistake taking Dong Quai without consulting first and messed up my ovulation timing.:dohh: Apparently it shouldn't have done that, but I guess my body was too sensitive :growlmad:
> 
> When I read about the herbs for the first time, I freaked out and my DH found it amusing and said: "Why don't you just stop eating completely?" :haha:
> Now I'm scared to have any tea after ovulation :wacko: :haha:Click to expand...



I know it's worrying isn't it.....blimey there's loads on those lists :nope: including the pineapple I'm eating at the mo although intend to finish in a few days....I have been drinking ginger tea as I hope it is warming but not sure about that now....gotta have a cuppa during the day:thumbup:


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## Briss

am eating my pineapple and thinking, am i doing the right thing here? it's delicious though


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## Blythe

I know what you mean! Sod it I'm going to keep eating it and maybe try something else next cycle....


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## Briss

After experimenting with juices and smoothies I actually found that just eating it fresh is probably the best thing


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## Blythe

6 dpo and finished pineapple....was intending to eat it for longer but ate it all last night! Have some grape juice which also acts as blood thinner so will have that tonight and then wait and see......nothing out of the ordinary so far.... Keep poking my boobs but nothing....fingers crossed for you


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## Briss

I am also 6-7 DPO, and still have two pineapples left so will continue for the next few days. I have no unusual symptoms whatsoever but it does not mean anything really. 

Am also drinking Chinese herbs and seem to get more and more spots on my face, they started before I had the herbs and but somehow have gotten worse over the last few days. not sure if there is any connection here


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## Rashaa

I have been going to TCM doctor for acupuncture and chiropractic. I feel a million times better, healthier. The whole family is eating better, we are sugar and gluten free. And I love my acupuncture appts (3x per week). It does work.


----------



## Briss

Rashaa, you have acu 3 times s week? that's quite intense. how long have you been doing it? 

I am off to my 3rd acu appointment.


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## Rashaa

yes Briss, three times / week, been doing it for a month, and I'm doing it for two months, then I will go to two times/month for a bit, then once weekly to keep it going.

I love it, i feel so calm and relaxed after treatments. I also take herbs.


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## Briss

just had my acu, so relaxing! I also had cupping and massage. I have been taking herbs for a week (twice a day) and will continue with them. I asked for a list of herb that she is mixing for me, am trying to understand what exactly I am taking - a really big list :) She also asked for my charts. Do any of you show your temp charts to acu practitioners?


----------



## MalaMae

Briss, I did. He was cery much interested in them. Next time I'll ask him what he saw.


----------



## Briss

that's very encouraging. I am going to bring my charts next time cos my FS was not at all interested in them.


----------



## Blythe

Briss said:


> that's very encouraging. I am going to bring my charts next time cos my FS was not at all interested in them.

Briss - how is it going? You have a nice temp rise on your chart - when is AF due? i am totally F'd off with it all at the moment and have decided to get radical....i always feel like this though when i know AF on way. I had so many symptoms this month and have a TV scan booked for tomorrow so i have done some PG tests - all neg so i know I'm out. Im due on weds and think I'm going to try and take a mental break from it all....ive decided to go on a juice/soup fast sort of thing and then start again from scratch. Having let my exercise go over the last two years amongst other things i feel totally lethargic and a big wobbly so I'm hoping fast (well a variation on it - can't juice at work so will have soups instead) will get the extra pounds off....losing weight before christmas is maybe something i can achieve with my body!!


----------



## Briss

Hi Blythe, my temp looks quite usual for post O, it can get even higher so I am not getting my hopes up. besides I can feel my cervix is changing its position preparing for AF which is due tomorrow/Wednesday. I stopped pineapples on Friday. Had my acu on Sunday and she gave me more herbs which are the same mix as I had last week. she said I can take them even after Af arrives. I have not done any preg tests, too depressing&#8230; cant bear seeing bfns :(

I cant believe you are thinking about fasting! that was my plan :) I was reading a book on this just a few days ago and decided to do juice fasting for cleansing purposes for 3 days after AF arrives. It just gives me something positive to focus on instead of getting further depressed about AF. Oh yes, exercises. totally forgot I was going to take up running&#8230;


----------



## Blythe

Bfn are heartbreaking....I'm feeling good about my detox though but have a bad bad headache on my first day....if no bfp next month I will go back to Chinese medicine. I'm uppin my dosage of coq10 to 200 mg per day and upping my royal jelly intake too this month and think I will do the pineapple again too as it was tasty!


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## Briss

Blythe, your chart looks very promising and you are only 12 DPO. have you already started your detoxing? maybe wait a few days you may still get pregnant this cycle it takes time for the hormone to build up to show in your urine. 

I will also be doing the pineapple next cycle!


----------



## Blythe

Im easing my way into a detox....today was the first time in years I had zero caffeine hence headaches. I had a smoothie for breakfast and made a mass of veg and lentil soup. I will get a juicer off eBay to be delivered by weekend and then go hardcore (well try!)....I'm ratty as hell today and have af type symptoms along with bfn this am so am almost certain I'm out this month... My friend at work is having her 12 week scan tomorrow....I'm so happy for her but my heart hurts a bit when I think of her pregnancy ( feel bad even saying that). We were tracking cycles together and it only took her three months...I have been trying since just when she met her husband (it was a whirlwind romance)...I'm just pissed off with it all at the mo!


----------



## Briss

I know this is heart breaking, my very good friend got pregnant on her second month, I had to explain to her how cycle works and how to spot LH surge etc (cos I was doing it for 2 years by the time she finally decided to try) and she is not even sure she wants it now and constantly complains. cant stand it. 

my temp is moving down so guess AF will show up tomorrow, I am trying to keep my spirits up and concentrate on the next cycle. I looked into the list of herbs my acu doctor gave me and the first one I checked was not recommended in pregnancy&#8230; a bit worrying but I decided to trust my doctor knows what she is doing

The hardest part of doing detox for me is going to be not having any chocolate. I cant even imagine what it is like. I have a juicer at home so as soon as AF shows up I will do 3 days on juices (at home) and herbal teas (at work).


----------



## Blythe

Briss said:


> I know this is heart breaking, my very good friend got pregnant on her second month, I had to explain to her how cycle works and how to spot LH surge etc (cos I was doing it for 2 years by the time she finally decided to try) and she is not even sure she wants it now and constantly complains. cant stand it.
> 
> my temp is moving down so guess AF will show up tomorrow, I am trying to keep my spirits up and concentrate on the next cycle. I looked into the list of herbs my acu doctor gave me and the first one I checked was not recommended in pregnancy a bit worrying but I decided to trust my doctor knows what she is doing
> 
> The hardest part of doing detox for me is going to be not having any chocolate. I cant even imagine what it is like. I have a juicer at home so as soon as AF shows up I will do 3 days on juices (at home) and herbal teas (at work).



ahhhh the chocolate - just been in sainsburys and they have the giant chocolate buttons there for 1.50 - i love them the best! 

its tuff to hear someone complaining about pregnancy, especially if it is a good friend. Like you i told my friend all about opks etc etc - crickey i didn't mean for her to go and get pregnant though!!! I am feeling decidedly more upbeat today as i have just returned from hospital and TV scan and she said i had nice ovaries and lots of eggs and should be able to conceive. Im focusing on the good stuff now - i.e. i have regular cycles and ovulate each month and i know so many ladies struggle with their cycles so i feel i am lucky in that respect - so I'm thinking i have 12 brand new opportunities to conceive next year and one more left this year!!!

its good you got a list of herbs from your practitioner - sometimes i felt they were just throwing my prescriptions together - some of them even tasted nice which is always a bit of a concern with that stuff. a lot of herbs are contraindicated during pregnancy - i look at the back of the containers of the stuff I'm taking now and it states 'don't take during pregnancy'....black cohosh and dong quai are not recommended but lots of ladies have used them successfully to conceive but might be worth running it by your practitioner.

i had my expected dip in temp this am so expect AF thursday but have new focus of juicing to look forward to which helps.


----------



## vkj73

:witch:
she got me yesterday.

i'm feeling much better today.

i have a fertility specialist appointment set up for december.

i also decided to give acupuncture another try again this cycle (after a break last cycle).

:dust:to all!!!


----------



## Briss

vkj73 said:


> :witch:
> she got me yesterday.
> 
> i'm feeling much better today.
> 
> i have a fertility specialist appointment set up for december.
> 
> i also decided to give acupuncture another try again this cycle (after a break last cycle).
> 
> :dust:to all!!!

sorry about the witch. mine will be here any minute now :(


----------



## Briss

Blythe, how's your detox going?

AF finally got me :( it's time to start my 3 day juice cleansing! from tomorrow that is. it will be interesting to see whether I will manage to last that long without any chocolate or food. Also not sure whether this is good time to be doing it during your period but I ovulate so early on that I really do not want to be hungry during my fertile days. I will continue with acu and herbs though


----------



## Blythe

Briss said:


> Blythe, how's your detox going?
> 
> AF finally got me :( it's time to start my 3 day juice cleansing! from tomorrow that is. it will be interesting to see whether I will manage to last that long without any chocolate or food. Also not sure whether this is good time to be doing it during your period but I ovulate so early on that I really do not want to be hungry during my fertile days. I will continue with acu and herbs though

Af due any minute for me...sorry she arrived for you:hugs:..my friend at work came in today with her 12 week scan pic and was showing everyone...had to disappear to the basement.....still good news is that I have lost 5lb since Monday. I have been having smoothies in the am, soup for lunch and tea and herbal teas and a handful of nuts and seeds in the daytime. I will get my juicer hopefully this weekend along with a couple of juicing books. I watched a few you tube videos of people who have done juice fasts and I'm very inspired. There is one guy who did 100 days And it completely changed his life....I'm quite excited and hope it will have a positive effect on my health. I feel like doing it upi to ovulation so maybe up to 10 days although I have no idea if I can last just one day yet. I have had no choc this week and I do feel better for it but I do love it so much. Do you work at the weekend? Im not sure whether it's best to do these things on work days or home days....at work I can find the hours whizz by (well sometimes!) but at home I suppose if hungry I could just make more juices.


----------



## Blythe

vkj73 said:


> :witch:
> she got me yesterday.
> 
> i'm feeling much better today.
> 
> i have a fertility specialist appointment set up for december.
> 
> i also decided to give acupuncture another try again this cycle (after a break last cycle).
> 
> :dust:to all!!!

Sorry about af....hope you are feeling ok :hugs:


----------



## Briss

I think you might be right, it will be quite difficult at home. I am thinking of putting it off until Monday... besides weekends are the only time when I allow myself to enjoy coffee


----------



## Briss

Blythe said:


> Briss said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Blythe said:
> 
> 
> I spoke with my old chinese doc and asked about blood clots and he asked how big - i said no larger than a 10pence piece and for first couple of days of cycle only - he said that is totally normal. I know the TCM diagnostics pay a lot of attention to a woman's cycle and secretions - i have lots of books on it so must check up about clotting and when its an issue.
> 
> I had my second acu session today and asked the doctor about clots, she said it means poor blood circulation but acu and herbs should help. from this week I decided to take chinese herbs instead of my vitamins.Click to expand...
> 
> Hi Briss - i have been having a look through my books on TCM and cycles and, more to the point, clotting! My understanding through conversations with TCM practitioners and through my own reading is that smallish bright red clots are a normal part of the cycle - sometimes i get them sometimes i don't (or at least don't notice them) - i think they are more of a concern if they are darker in colour or larger clots [obviously big caveat is that tcm diagnostics is unique to each person so the following may not apply for all girls with clotting - speak to a professional bla bla bla] - Dark Clots in menstrual blood - Ordinarily women don't worry about dark clots in their blood, but in oriental medicine, the clots are a sign that all is not well with the liver qi.....
> maybe due to the following:
> 
> stagnant qi and blood - often due to nervous stress or emotional depression - may notice distended pain in chest and breasts, scanty blood with dark purple clots and an irregular cycle.
> 
> stagnant cold and damp - inhibits smooth flow of qi and blood causing blockage and pain - accompanying symptoms are a pale complexion, cold hands and feet, scanty flow with purple clots and a delayed cycle. caused by poor diet, excessive ingestion of cold/raw food and drinks or catching a chill when you are cold and wet during period. - hot water bottle at night - keep nice and warm - i have been told to keep feet in bowl of nice warm water in evening and use hot water bottle on belly - warming/easy to digest foods
> 
> stagnant liver qi and blood - can cause blood to sit and congeal rather than flow out freely and smoothly - dark clots result of stagnant liver qi that lead to liver blood stagnation - old blood that has been blocked and lying stagnant in the body will appear dark purple, or sometimes blackish with thick clots.
> perhaps due to stagnant food in intestines due to overeating, stagnant blood due to trauma, long-term blood deficiency and dampness can all impede qis flow. - signs of qi congestion & liver stagnation are: feeling of fullness or discomfort in chest, belly or head, agitation, anger, frustration, depression, blood clots, pre-menstrual breast distention, irregular periods, and cramps at the beginning of the cycle {eeekks sounds pretty normal to me!)
> 
> advice is: warm the body with warming and nourishing foods - disperse stagnant liver qi and blood, tone and relax the liver, activate the qi. I know a lot of this stuff is done with needles and herbs but worth looking at self help stuff you can do. When i conceived my first i did qi gong - a little like tai chi. anyhow, just putting your hands over your liver and pretending its happy and smiling will help (sounds bonkers but i hope you get the idea).
> 
> I won't go on but there are other reasons such as weak spleen and one i have noticed to be a common thing here is kidney yang or jing deficiency - i think most of my treatments revolved around strengthening kidneys. I'm not so sure what they deal is if there is loads of blood and lots of larger bright red clots....Click to expand...

just to update re clots, after having done 3 acu sessions and 2 weeks of herbs I still have clots (big ones) but overall AF is far more liquidy than before. It will be interesting to see if my next AF has any clots, although as always I hope I wont get the next AF..


----------



## Blythe

fingers crossed there will be no next one briss. More liquidy sounds like a positive development....I am on day one today and went out and brought some L-arginine and have been thinking about DHEA although that might be something a little further down the line


----------



## Briss

so sorry AF got you :(

be careful with DHEA if you are not deficient you may overdose. 

I topped up hubby's L-arginine and maca, hoping his sex drive will go up


----------



## Blythe

Briss said:


> so sorry AF got you :(
> 
> be careful with DHEA if you are not deficient you may overdose.
> 
> I topped up hubby's L-arginine and maca, hoping his sex drive will go up



yeah having checked out some more stuff online i think il give it a wide berth - really don't want excess facial hair on top of it all! i have also instructed DH to take these L-arginine pills i brought yesterday on top of the well man and fish oil tabs. i will also take a l-arginine tab. i was looking at iui and ivf options last night - i was checked out create health. If i were to go down that route it would take up to 5k out of our deposit funds...think i will return to TCM for at least a three month period before exploring that avenue any further. are you geared up for your juice fast? someone came into the office yesterday with a coffee for as a gift so i felt i couldn't refuse it - i had about 3 hours sleep last night - it's amazing how powerful caffeine is once you have eliminated it.


----------



## Briss

I talked to a lady on B&B who did natural cycle IVF at create health and got her BFP on her second attempt so she recommended this clinic and it's one of the clinics I am considering for our treatment. Hubby is still not convinced so may take some time to get him to the right state of mind. I am sure acu and herbs will help get my body into shape for pregnancy but because it's a male issue I really think we only have a slim chance TTC natural (although miracles do happen). Hubby still drinks beer from time to time so it is not helping. Money wise a standard medicated IVF would be well over 5K, cos of hidden costs i.e. drugs are more expensive than the actual procedure. 3-5K is only for natural unmedicated IVF. Hubby suggested to check clinics abroad but I find it so daunting.

am off to a market to get more greens for my juices and then I will start mixing just to get an idea what it tastes like and try to find an appropriate combination that i can live with for 3 days :) Monday is off cos I have to go to a conference for the whole day and will be socialising so not ideal for fasting 

Surprisingly after cutting down coffee for 4 months, one small cup is more than enough for me, anything more and I feel my heart racing


----------



## Blythe

Have just eaten entire contents of chocolate advent calendar :nope:


----------



## Briss

you deserved it you have been doing it for a week now, can you see any result. weight loss obviously which is great. anything else?

I will limit it to 3 days cos I know I cant survive without chocolate...


----------



## Blythe

My juicer still has not arrived and I stocked this morning on spinach, beets etc...fingers crossed it arrives on Monday. Other than the weight loss I do feel better....I feel as if I regained a bit of control back instead of just constantly waiting so that, for me, is great. My skin is looking better too...I am determined to stick to it and hope that a proper juice fast will really build on the positive stuff I have noticed so far...


----------



## Briss

i am quite new to this juicing thing, it's not easy at all.

I juiced celery, apples, carrots, cucumber, spinach, parsley, lemon. and I did not like it :( or maybe I need time to get used to it I do not know. 

lemon was a mistake, it kind of ruined the whole thing. celery on its own is not nice at all. spinach and parsley, are so hard to juice but they give such a strong green colour to the mix. 

I am going to make myself pure carrot juice now I love it and really need something nice to get rid of that awful taste...


----------



## Blythe

Eeeeww I can't say I'm looking forward to the savoury juices...I imagine some will be a bit rubbish. I have a Jason vale book coming with my juicer so will try some from that. I have ginger and a couple of massive cucumber and loads of carrots and apples and beet roots(good for cleansing the liver I hear) I think il stick the maca in one of them as I'm struggling with it as a shot in the morning...yuk!


----------



## Briss

I also got a few beet roots to play with. I hear beet roots can be quite strong and better to mix them with something. I have two more days to practice and find a bearable combination. the good thing about these juices is that they put you off eating :)


----------



## Briss

just tried juicing half beetroot and lots of carrots - simply divine! I could drink nothing but this all day long, shame you cant really drink too much beetroot juice cos it's really powerful detox


----------



## vkj73

well, i had some wine during af (especially since it was during thanksgiving here in the u.s.)

my heart is telling me to cut it out completely. same with decaf coffee.

i'm debating switching to green tea, but i've read mixed studies on caffeine.

one acupuncturist i saw told me that the caffeine in tea is better than decaf coffee. they referred specifically to the chemical process in making decaf.

so, i'll be cutting out the alcohol sooner than usual, and cutting out the decaf coffee (maybe a decaf latte here and there...i love the holiday coffee drinks).

that's it for now. i'll be heading back to acupuncture next saturday after taking a break this last cycle.

:dust:


----------



## Blythe

Briss said:


> just tried juicing half beetroot and lots of carrots - simply divine! I could drink nothing but this all day long, shame you cant really drink too much beetroot juice cos it's really powerful detox

That sounds good....I love beet roots. I really hope my juicer turns up tomorrow so I can get going!


----------



## Blythe

Briss said:


> just tried juicing half beetroot and lots of carrots - simply divine! I could drink nothing but this all day long, shame you cant really drink too much beetroot juice cos it's really powerful detox

I have been starting day with chopped up lemon in hot water....probably ripping the enamel off my teeth but my insides feel better


----------



## Blythe

vkj73 said:


> well, i had some wine during af (especially since it was during thanksgiving here in the u.s.)
> 
> my heart is telling me to cut it out completely. same with decaf coffee.
> 
> i'm debating switching to green tea, but i've read mixed studies on caffeine.
> 
> one acupuncturist i saw told me that the caffeine in tea is better than decaf coffee. they referred specifically to the chemical process in making decaf.
> 
> so, i'll be cutting out the alcohol sooner than usual, and cutting out the decaf coffee (maybe a decaf latte here and there...i love the holiday coffee drinks).
> 
> that's it for now. i'll be heading back to acupuncture next saturday after taking a break this last cycle.
> 
> :dust:

I don't think some alcohol, caffeine etc here and there matter a jot. This is the first week in my life I have had caffeine (except for chocolate advent calendar I destroyed yesterday and one coffee on fri) and its great. I think the most important thing is to try and limit intake or keep them as treats rather than daily tipple. Yeah I'm a bit dubious of decaf coffee and would rather just have the real thing but less of it....i think the chem process is no so great for us ladies. I'm back to tcm in the new year if I don't get that bfp this cycle. Fingers crossed for us all x


----------



## Briss

VKJ, I cut down coffee and replaced it with nettle tea (it took a while to get used to...) exactly for that reason (i.e. the chemical process in making decaf.) i did not switch to decaf. I drink green tea from time to time but mainly herb teas. I could not cut it out completely, I have a small cup of coffee on weekend as a treat I find it helps me stay on track during the week 

I started the day with a bit of a cry (another pregnancy announcement by a close friend) followed by a cup of coffee.... but then I was really good yesterday with all this juicing. Will be trying some more today.

lemon in hot water is great though I cant drink it on an empty stomach. You can drink it with a straw to save your teeth. I do it for grapefruit juice, it can be really tough on your teeth and I drink lots of it before O for obvious reasons (well obvious to any TTCer that is) 

I am off to my next acu session. cant wait! I really enjoy it. I am also bringing my temp charts, really curious what she is going to make of them. I also want to show off my new blemishes on my chin, I am sure they mean something to her, nothing good of course


----------



## Blythe

Briss said:


> VKJ, I cut down coffee and replaced it with nettle tea (it took a while to get used to...) exactly for that reason (i.e. the chemical process in making decaf.) i did not switch to decaf. I drink green tea from time to time but mainly herb teas. I could not cut it out completely, I have a small cup of coffee on weekend as a treat I find it helps me stay on track during the week
> 
> I started the day with a bit of a cry (another pregnancy announcement by a close friend) followed by a cup of coffee.... but then I was really good yesterday with all this juicing. Will be trying some more today.
> 
> lemon in hot water is great though I cant drink it on an empty stomach. You can drink it with a straw to save your teeth. I do it for grapefruit juice, it can be really tough on your teeth and I drink lots of it before O for obvious reasons (well obvious to any TTCer that is)
> 
> I am off to my next acu session. cant wait! I really enjoy it. I am also bringing my temp charts, really curious what she is going to make of them. I also want to show off my new blemishes on my chin, I am sure they mean something to her, nothing good of course

sorry to hear you were upset - i know how i feel when i get the same news - my stomach sinks and my heart hurts....i am always happy for other people but it just brings home what a difficult process this is.

i hope your appt goes well today - did she give you a new prescription or same as before? perhaps the blemishes are a good sign of your body clearing stuff out.

thanks for the straw tip - i had not thought of that.


----------



## Briss

Just had my acu session, it was a bit more painful then usual particularly on the right side, not sure why. They did not like my temp charts :( her assistant said post O temps were up and down while they are supposed to go up and stay on the same level for at least a week. although she never saw FF charts before and confused my period with pre-O fertile period... well in the end she said I should start taking some additional herb - Tiao Jing Cu Yun Wan from CD5 for 20 days. has anyone heard of this? they look like that https://www.springherb.co.uk/Cu_Yun_Wan_Tiao_Jing_Cu_Yun_Wan.html am going to do a bit of research on this but chinese herbs are so complex I guess I just have to trust the doc knows what she is doing. Other than that she gave me the same herb mix as last 2 weeks. I also got more needles this time on my arms and legs.


----------



## Blythe

Briss said:


> Just had my acu session, it was a bit more painful then usual particularly on the right side, not sure why. They did not like my temp charts :( her assistant said post O temps were up and down while they are supposed to go up and stay on the same level for at least a week. although she never saw FF charts before and confused my period with pre-O fertile period... well in the end she said I should start taking some additional herb - Tiao Jing Cu Yun Wan from CD5 for 20 days. has anyone heard of this? they look like that https://www.springherb.co.uk/Cu_Yun_Wan_Tiao_Jing_Cu_Yun_Wan.html am going to do a bit of research on this but chinese herbs are so complex I guess I just have to trust the doc knows what she is doing. Other than that she gave me the same herb mix as last 2 weeks. I also got more needles this time on my arms and legs.

thats interesting about your temps - my temps are more often that not up and down post ovu so not sure what the issue is there - i always thought it was the overall pattern which mattered and so long as they stay above the cover line etc etc I have not heard of the new herb you have been prescribed....are your herbs reasonably priced?


----------



## Briss

the more I read about this new herb the more I think she got it wrong, Tiao Jing Cu Yun Wan seems to be for women who do not ovulate but there is not enough info. probably her assistant did not interpret charts correctly thinking I do not ovulate cos she said my temp should go up and stay up for at least a week but she thought the chart started from O line, although I did explain that to her. I just do not know. maybe it was just language barrier and she did not understand me. I really do not think I need to stimulate my ovaries. so confusing


----------



## Briss

i think herbs are very expensive, I pay 42 a week for the mix and the new herbs were 35 pounds for 20 days supply


----------



## Blythe

I find the costs exorbitant....42 is what I would expect to pay at the new place I have been eying up. I was paying 50 per week just For the herbs and after going back after 4 weeks of taking them he looked at my tongue and said not much progress....I felt very angry. I suppose the herbs are quite gentle and I need to develop patience if and when I return to them. Are you going to take the new herbs or take them bAck? From what I have seen on the web they look ok....I saw they help with clotting and blood circulation.


----------



## MalaMae

Briss said:


> Just had my acu session, it was a bit more painful then usual particularly on the right side, not sure why. They did not like my temp charts :( her assistant said post O temps were up and down while they are supposed to go up and stay on the same level for at least a week. although she never saw FF charts before and confused my period with pre-O fertile period... well in the end she said I should start taking some additional herb - Tiao Jing Cu Yun Wan from CD5 for 20 days. has anyone heard of this? they look like that https://www.springherb.co.uk/Cu_Yun_Wan_Tiao_Jing_Cu_Yun_Wan.html am going to do a bit of research on this but chinese herbs are so complex I guess I just have to trust the doc knows what she is doing. Other than that she gave me the same herb mix as last 2 weeks. I also got more needles this time on my arms and legs.

I had the same pills and I think he gave me when I got the period ( I think)
As for the temperatures, he said the same thing. He was happy that finally my temps after O were in nice line, there were no ups or downs.
I think we are out this month as well :(


----------



## Briss

I think I even pay less now cos I paid 210 for 6 weeks of herbs in advance which comes to 35 a week if my math is correct. 50 is a bit expensive unless your doctor adds some super expensive ingredients


----------



## Briss

MalaMae said:


> Briss said:
> 
> 
> Just had my acu session, it was a bit more painful then usual particularly on the right side, not sure why. They did not like my temp charts :( her assistant said post O temps were up and down while they are supposed to go up and stay on the same level for at least a week. although she never saw FF charts before and confused my period with pre-O fertile period... well in the end she said I should start taking some additional herb - Tiao Jing Cu Yun Wan from CD5 for 20 days. has anyone heard of this? they look like that https://www.springherb.co.uk/Cu_Yun_Wan_Tiao_Jing_Cu_Yun_Wan.html am going to do a bit of research on this but chinese herbs are so complex I guess I just have to trust the doc knows what she is doing. Other than that she gave me the same herb mix as last 2 weeks. I also got more needles this time on my arms and legs.
> 
> I had the same pills and I think he gave me when I got the period ( I think)
> As for the temperatures, he said the same thing. He was happy that finally my temps after O were in nice line, there were no ups or downs.
> I think we are out this month as well :(Click to expand...

interesting, maybe I should try this pills afterall. I read that you should not take them during pregnancy but I was told to take them for 20 days which includes TWW.


----------



## MalaMae

I got my period :sad2::sad2::sad2::sad2: totally out of the blue and it's only 24th day!!! My LP this month was only 11 days!!!:cry:
I'm losing hope :cry:


----------



## vkj73

briss and blythe, 
thanks for the reply. i agree, i was thinking i'll
treat myself to a holiday latte 1-2xs a week.
i bought some lemonbalm in bulk (a calming herb)
to mix with the nettles and raspberry leaf i bought.
i've seen it in a couple of fertility tea mixes.

i too was given herbs pre-ov, then different ones for post-ov.
i found the pill form to be the cheapest.

malamae, i'm sorry that af got you. my cds have jumped all around, 
from 39 to 40 to 30. very frustrating.

hello and lots of :dust:to all of the gals on here!


----------



## Blythe

MalaMae said:


> I got my period :sad2::sad2::sad2::sad2: totally out of the blue and it's only 24th day!!! My LP this month was only 11 days!!!:cry:
> I'm losing hope :cry:

:hugs::hugs: I'm so sorry malamae. How long is your lp usually?


----------



## MalaMae

it's usually 14 days. But now I think I may had O ealrier (on day 10), but that day I had to take BBT at 7am instead of regular 9 am, so I thought I shouldn't take that temp in consideration. Unfortunately I didn't have ovulation tests that day to confirm this.
Check out my chart (in the signature below), then scroll down- it'll show the previous month. What do you think?

Thanks girls for the support. My DH is pissed off that I'm stressing out too much and I only needed a hug and positive words.


----------



## Blythe

MalaMae said:


> it's usually 14 days. But now I think I may had O ealrier (on day 10), but that day I had to take BBT at 7am instead of regular 9 am, so I thought I shouldn't take that temp in consideration. Unfortunately I didn't have ovulation tests that day to confirm this.
> Check out my chart (in the signature below), then scroll down- it'll show the previous month. What do you think?
> 
> Thanks girls for the support. My DH is pissed off that I'm stressing out too much and I only needed a hug and positive words.

Not sure - you still have positive OPKs up until day 16...are they the cheap ones - are you not getting a stronger positive on one of the days? You certainly have a big temp dip on the 10th - if this was your temp when you awoke then as long as you have had a good few hours sleep before hand i would trust that temp...Possibly your herbs brought your ovulation forward.

i will give you a big virtual :hugs: I totally understand about DHs being a bit rubbish sometimes. I announced we had been trying for nearly 2 years and he laughed saying i was joking and it had been nearer a year. I could have hit him...i suppose for him it would seem like that as i have only been pumping him with every supplement i can lay my hands on for the last year! Sometimes they just need to nod and be sympathetic and say nothing!

hang on in there...i have no doubt it will happen for us all but it is bloody hard isn't it, particulary on months like this. I took vitex/angnus castus the other month and it really buggered up my cycle...it increased it by a few days and i was in bits by the end of it....DH completely oblivious to it all...


----------



## Blythe

vkj73 said:


> briss and blythe,
> thanks for the reply. i agree, i was thinking i'll
> treat myself to a holiday latte 1-2xs a week.
> i bought some lemonbalm in bulk (a calming herb)
> to mix with the nettles and raspberry leaf i bought.
> i've seen it in a couple of fertility tea mixes.
> 
> i too was given herbs pre-ov, then different ones for post-ov.
> i found the pill form to be the cheapest.
> 
> malamae, i'm sorry that af got you. my cds have jumped all around,
> from 39 to 40 to 30. very frustrating.
> 
> hello and lots of :dust:to all of the gals on here!

do you drink the raspberry leaf up til ovulation or after too? i really like nettle tea...i used to drink it to deal with hangovers although none of those nowadays!!


----------



## MalaMae

Thanks Blythe! My whole cycle last month was weird (I assume from the chemical).
But thanks for those words, you actually made me laugh :)

..and, yes, the OPKs are the cheap ones, so sometimes from those lines you can't make out anything. :)


----------



## Briss

MalaMae, I am very sorry about AF. 11 days is still within the norm and it is possible you ovulated earlier, hard to say. Have you been taking tiao jing Cu Yun Wan this cycle?

Blythe, I drink raspberry leaf up til ovulation.

I decided to give these new herbs a chance. they are so weird looking and taste funny. shall I just swallow them or do I need to chew them first?

My DH is being terrible, he continues with his beer like nothing is wrong. I am so mad at him! 

Will try to start juicing detox tomorrow, we'll see how it goes.


----------



## vkj73

Blythe said:


> vkj73 said:
> 
> 
> briss and blythe,
> thanks for the reply. i agree, i was thinking i'll
> treat myself to a holiday latte 1-2xs a week.
> i bought some lemonbalm in bulk (a calming herb)
> to mix with the nettles and raspberry leaf i bought.
> i've seen it in a couple of fertility tea mixes.
> 
> i too was given herbs pre-ov, then different ones for post-ov.
> i found the pill form to be the cheapest.
> 
> malamae, i'm sorry that af got you. my cds have jumped all around,
> from 39 to 40 to 30. very frustrating.
> 
> hello and lots of :dust:to all of the gals on here!
> 
> do you drink the raspberry leaf up til ovulation or after too? i really like nettle tea...i used to drink it to deal with hangovers although none of those nowadays!!Click to expand...

that's a good question. :coffee:
let's keep each other posted if either finds any info :hugs:


----------



## FireBaby

Hi guys! I've been following your posts :) I've been doing acu at two different places - one is a community one (inexpensive) and one is a fertility acu (super expensive) anyway I've had similar chinese herb tablets before - you don't chew them - you just swallow them like regular tablets.

Well good luck on your cleanses! I might join you guys in a week or so :)

:dust:
:dust:
:dust:
:dust:
:dust:


----------



## MalaMae

Briss, thanks! And I think you are right, more and more I think I ovulated earlier and we did BD right on time, but obviously nothing happened.
Don't chew chinese herbs, you don't want to do that. The worst taste ever.
I did take Tiao jing Cu Yun Wan this month (but can't remember what period of my cycle). Plus last week of cycle he mixed some powder for drinking, it was like drinking mud, so I added some honey to that. Well, the taste changed to sweet mud :)
So what I did is I closed my nose and drank quickly the whole thing, washed it with water and added some food with strong taste to kill it.
Anyway, ladies, thanks for the support, my spirit is in a better mood now.


----------



## Briss

It's not even lunch time and I am so hungry! I just had nettle tea all morning, still need to drink herbs and then these tablets. Thank you for the advice, it's a relief to know I don't need to chew them. I am not sure I will manage three days without any food (leave alone chocolate). but I really want to detoxify my body and hopefully lose a bit of weight. I have so much work today it's unlikely I will get home before midnight so no juicing today only teas&#8230;.


----------



## MalaMae

Good luck Briss! Detox is hard.
Do you feel weak from hunger?


----------



## Briss

It's pathetic! I only managed to hold on without food until 3 pm&#8230; I just found it unbearable, I was so hungry that I could not concentrate on my drafting. in the end I rushed to pret for some soup and tuna baguette&#8230; may be if I had juices I would not be so terribly hungry, I do not know. having a bit of chocolate would also help not feel hungry but it probably defeats the purpose of detox&#8230; I also got really bad headache. My concentration is now back so back to work. shame about detox though, I did not know I was so weak, when I was younger I never cared about food&#8230;


----------



## Blythe

Briss said:


> It's pathetic! I only managed to hold on without food until 3 pm I just found it unbearable, I was so hungry that I could not concentrate on my drafting. in the end I rushed to pret for some soup and tuna baguette may be if I had juices I would not be so terribly hungry, I do not know. having a bit of chocolate would also help not feel hungry but it probably defeats the purpose of detox I also got really bad headache. My concentration is now back so back to work. shame about detox though, I did not know I was so weak, when I was younger I never cared about food

Corrrrr....if i was working til midnight i would be eating too! Having tea only throughout the day is just too much particularly if you need your brain to work. maybe have a handful of seeds and nuts to see you through until home time (thats if you get home early enough). my juicer has not turned up so i have been making soups out of all the veg i brought at the weekend. I have been very busy at work and realised i stank of garlic today so went to the shop in my work building looking for some mints and came across a pack of rhubarb and custard boiled sweets - i ate about 25 and removed the roof of my mouth in the process. 

maybe take some soup into work to see you through - its easy on the digestion and warming for your important bits inside and can fit in with a detox.


----------



## Briss

My detox miserably failed, I probably need to start with something small, like eating just once a day and not taking any chocolates (the hardest part) + juices; I have been trying that last two days. I am just so unhappy with how I look, last two years it was all about getting pregnant so I did not care that I was putting on weight but now I just feel like a failure &#8211; not pregnant and cant fit into any of my clothes anymore.

Have been working late this week so did not have a chance to make any juices, hoping to get home by 9 today so maybe I can manage juicing grapefruit or beetroots. drank lots of herbal teas though

Tiao Jing Cu Yun makes me sick if I take it on an empty stomach (which I do since I only eat once a day now)

I have been counting here and apparently in November I spent almost 500 pounds on Chinese stuff, most of which on herbs for myself and hubby. I paid for acu and herbs in advance so I am hoping for the next 3 weeks I wont have to pay anything more


----------



## MalaMae

Sorry Briss. Maybe you're strssing out too much over the detox, diet. Maybe if you do it more as diet change it will work better for you?
I found if I'm thinking of dieting I can never do it, so I just changed the diet and it works (plus I'm never hungry).


----------



## Blythe

Briss said:


> My detox miserably failed, I probably need to start with something small, like eating just once a day and not taking any chocolates (the hardest part) + juices; I have been trying that last two days. I am just so unhappy with how I look, last two years it was all about getting pregnant so I did not care that I was putting on weight but now I just feel like a failure  not pregnant and cant fit into any of my clothes anymore.
> 
> Have been working late this week so did not have a chance to make any juices, hoping to get home by 9 today so maybe I can manage juicing grapefruit or beetroots. drank lots of herbal teas though
> 
> Tiao Jing Cu Yun makes me sick if I take it on an empty stomach (which I do since I only eat once a day now)
> 
> I have been counting here and apparently in November I spent almost 500 pounds on Chinese stuff, most of which on herbs for myself and hubby. I paid for acu and herbs in advance so I am hoping for the next 3 weeks I wont have to pay anything more

I feel the same with regard to not fitting into clothes etc.....I feel like I've been holding my breath for two years whilst ttc....I keep thinking once I'm pregnant il sort this, do that etc etc.....I think doing a semi juice fast is part of me trying to reclaim some control. Please don't be hard on yourself....I think you have done amazingly well as you seem to be putting in a lot of late nights at work. I have my juicer so will try it over the weekend. There is no getting around the fact that Chinese medicine is expensive but take some comfort from this..... https://www.zhaiclinic.com/ 
Check out those prices....yikes!!!


----------



## Hoping4our1st

hi everyone, i have read your posts and found it because i'm looking for a fertility accupunturist in Toronto. does anyone know? i know of a place that's down the hall conveniently from an IVF/ICSI clinic and another place was recommended but they treat females mostly but i'm curious of recommendations cuz it's really expensive.

thanks. i hope u all get pregnant very very soon.

Toronto Total Wellness Centre down the hall from an IVF/ICSI clinic called LifeQuest. Canadian Gynecology Institute of Chinese Medicne 

here's some info on us in case other's can relate.

me: 42, test results i'm told are fine. i have 8-9 follicles on left and 1 on right. fsh is 5. we got married 5 months ago.

husband: 40 at end of December.
low sperm of less than 1 million
motility: "few"
morphology: too low count to do 

Free testosterone 22.8 pmol/L (normal range is 31.0 - 94.0 pmol/L) (or 6.2 pg/ml) 
FSH 32 IU/L (normal range is 2-12 IU/L)
WBC 3.8 (normal range is 4.0 - 11.0 x 10E9/L) not sure what WBC is exactly.

supplements he's taking are: good multi, L Carnitine, Macca, Bee pollen and Wheat germ (put on cereal), top quality CoQ10 (Inno-Vite, Ino-Q-Nol, stabilized coQ10 Ubiquinol), Ester C, Zinc, Astalagus, top quality Grape Seed, Selenium, E. I've taken vitamins for decades, i now take a good multi, extra CoQ100 & D, Macca, Wild Yam, bee pollen, wheat germ. 

we see a urologist in dec.


----------



## MalaMae

Hoping4our1st said:


> hi everyone, i have read your posts and found it because i'm looking for a fertility accupunturist in Toronto. does anyone know? i know of a place that's down the hall conveniently from an IVF/ICSI clinic and another place was recommended but they treat females mostly but i'm curious of recommendations cuz it's really expensive.
> 
> thanks. i hope u all get pregnant very very soon.
> 
> Toronto Total Wellness Centre down the hall from an IVF/ICSI clinic called LifeQuest. Canadian Gynecology Institute of Chinese Medicne
> 
> here's some info on us in case other's can relate.
> 
> me: 42, test results i'm told are fine. i have 8-9 follicles on left and 1 on right. fsh is 5. we got married 5 months ago.
> 
> husband: 40 at end of December.
> low sperm of less than 1 million
> motility: "few"
> morphology: too low count to do
> 
> Free testosterone 22.8 pmol/L (normal range is 31.0 - 94.0 pmol/L) (or 6.2 pg/ml)
> FSH 32 IU/L (normal range is 2-12 IU/L)
> WBC 3.8 (normal range is 4.0 - 11.0 x 10E9/L) not sure what WBC is exactly.
> 
> supplements he's taking are: good multi, L Carnitine, Macca, Bee pollen and Wheat germ (put on cereal), top quality CoQ10 (Inno-Vite, Ino-Q-Nol, stabilized coQ10 Ubiquinol), Ester C, Zinc, Astalagus, top quality Grape Seed, Selenium, E. I've taken vitamins for decades, i now take a good multi, extra CoQ100 & D, Macca, Wild Yam, bee pollen, wheat germ.
> 
> we see a urologist in dec.

Hi!
I replied you back in Inbox :)


----------



## Briss

MalaMay, thanks you might be right, sometimes I do not eat the whole day and do not even notice but once I decided that I am fasting it suddenly became impossible.

Blythe, you are doing really great with your diet, is it almost two weeks now? I wish I could have your discipline. But I am trying. I did not realise how much chocolate I was actually consuming on a daily basis. Today one of my colleagues noted that my desk looked empty without all the chocolate :) quite sad really. Congratulations on finally getting your juicer. Have you tried it yet? which one did you buy? Let me know if you find any combination of veggies that taste nice when juiced, particularly green ones.

Hoping welcome! Unfortunately I cant help with clinics in Toronto, I am in the UK. I can certainly relate to low sperm count issues, my hubby has less than 3 mil but it is probably his own fault because he loves his beer and drinks lots of it. He is trying to change his ways but it is very hard. I also have him a list of supplements and chinese herbs but unless he quits beer completely I do not think anything will change so we are facing IVF.


----------



## Blythe

I got a Philips one....it was on ebay and the seller had only used it a couple of times so i paid under 40 for it. I have unpacked it and i will have my first juice tonight - I'm thinking of the one you suggested - carrot and beets first and then look through my book tonight for some inspiring ones to put together over the weekend. 

been a bit off the diet really this week - i have found work to be very stressful and the people in my office behave like children sometimes but, still i have refrained from going to the vending machine for diary milks so that is progress for me!!

looking forward to the weekend - time to get gifts sorted and cards written so i can go back to obsessing about TTC:wacko:


----------



## Briss

That's super cheap for a juicer, well done! Mine was terribly expensive something like 200 pounds and it's not even that great. For example I use the entire pack of carrots (half kg) for a large glass of juice. Some juicers can give you the same amount out of 2-3 large carrots. 

carrot and beets is delicious! but be careful and do not drink it too fast you may feel sick. I use 5-6 carrots for ½ beetroot, I love my carrots

I also had a very stressful and busy week at work, but would probably be able to leave before 7 today which is great. Also, I cant seem to keep up with all the Chinese stuff I am supposed to drink/swallow during the day. I am not sure if the herbs made any difference this cycle I got HIGH on my CBFM on CD 6 which is super early but exactly the same as last cycle so will probably ovulate on Sunday CD11, EPO is usually good at delaying my O for a couple of days but Chinese herbs do not seem to work that way. 

I have ordered some yoga DVD for the second chakra (supposedly the one for fertility), I have tried yoga before but it did not stick, will be trying again next week


----------



## Blythe

Briss said:


> That's super cheap for a juicer, well done! Mine was terribly expensive something like 200 pounds and it's not even that great. For example I use the entire pack of carrots (half kg) for a large glass of juice. Some juicers can give you the same amount out of 2-3 large carrots.
> 
> carrot and beets is delicious! but be careful and do not drink it too fast you may feel sick. I use 5-6 carrots for ½ beetroot, I love my carrots
> 
> I also had a very stressful and busy week at work, but would probably be able to leave before 7 today which is great. Also, I cant seem to keep up with all the Chinese stuff I am supposed to drink/swallow during the day. I am not sure if the herbs made any difference this cycle I got HIGH on my CBFM on CD 6 which is super early but exactly the same as last cycle so will probably ovulate on Sunday CD11, EPO is usually good at delaying my O for a couple of days but Chinese herbs do not seem to work that way.
> 
> I have ordered some yoga DVD for the second chakra (supposedly the one for fertility), I have tried yoga before but it did not stick, will be trying again next week

i have just had my first juice and it was delicious....i love it! it was the juice master's detox special and i used:

2 apples
1 carrot
1/2 yellow pepper
i peice of celery
1 beetroot

[i did not add the other bits he recommended inc. slice of lemon, slice cucumber, ice and broccoli stem]

lots of washing up though but really tasty so happy with that...im going to do another fruit/veg shop later and try and last on juices only this weekend.

have you got your peak yet? my CBFM is on top of my wardrobe - i didn't want to keep forking out for sticks each month and i make do with either the smily face or cheapies....might not even bother at all this month as i usually O on day 14/15. still its always quite exciting when you see the little egg on peak day.


----------



## Briss

I just had a pint of my favorite beet root and carrots; will definitely be trying your recipe later today I have all the ingredients. I have not had anything else to eat yet but something tells me that I will...

Got my PEAk today on CD10 as expected. I am not doing OPK this month cos I run out of sticks and do not feel like spending money. I usually O between CD11-14 - quite a gap and CBFM comes in handy.


----------



## Briss

Blythe said:


> 2 apples
> 1 carrot
> 1/2 yellow pepper
> i peice of celery
> 1 beetroot
> 
> .

It's really good! I can drink a lot of it, just made myself a pint :) I also made cucumber juice with greens - quite nasty but hubby seems to like it although I added some ginger to his juice and he added tonnes of salt and pepper :dohh:


----------



## vkj73

after taking a break last cycle, i had my first appointment this morning.
i felt really good about it. the intern worked for 4 years with someone who specializes in fertility. she asked me much more detailed questions that past interns. i'm going to go for 2 more treatments this cycle.

the last few cycles i took the herbs in pill/capsule form.
i decided to "up" it a little, and take the powder form.

blythe, she recommended to only drink raspberry tea during af and for a short bit after. definitely not during ovulation and after.

hope this finds you all well. :xmas9:


----------



## Blythe

Briss said:


> Blythe said:
> 
> 
> 2 apples
> 1 carrot
> 1/2 yellow pepper
> i peice of celery
> 1 beetroot
> 
> .
> 
> It's really good! I can drink a lot of it, just made myself a pint :) I also made cucumber juice with greens - quite nasty but hubby seems to like it although I added some ginger to his juice and he added tonnes of salt and pepper :dohh:Click to expand...



that is such a bloke thing to do! sometimes i cook something really nice for DH and the first thing he does is stick hot pepper sauce on it without even tasting it! Its good your DH is having some juices - might help with the swimmers. I had a biggish temp rise this am but not due to ovulate for about 4 days so hope it wasn't early ovulation as have not DTD recently...probably just because i took temp an hour later than usual and hopefully tomorrow it will be low again.

that juice is quite filling isnt it...i had two juices yesterday and a load of soup with lentils in the evening as i was just so so hungry.


----------



## Blythe

vkj73 said:


> after taking a break last cycle, i had my first appointment this morning.
> i felt really good about it. the intern worked for 4 years with someone who specializes in fertility. she asked me much more detailed questions that past interns. i'm going to go for 2 more treatments this cycle.
> 
> the last few cycles i took the herbs in pill/capsule form.
> i decided to "up" it a little, and take the powder form.
> 
> blythe, she recommended to only drink raspberry tea during af and for a short bit after. definitely not during ovulation and after.
> 
> hope this finds you all well. :xmas9:

thats great that you have found someone who asks lots of questions...it means so much if you find someone that genuinely listens and wants to find out as much as they can....i hope that if i return to it i will find someone like that instead of just [seemingly] paying lip service to what i am telling them.

i think the ground herbs are so much more powerful than the tablets....

Thanks for the tip re the tea....Its at work so i have not had any for a couple of days so safe....i had lots last cycle but really only about 5 cups this cycle so doubtful about whether its made any difference. im not a massive fan of the taste. I have been drinking loads more nettle tea which makes me feel clean inside and like it may actually help.


----------



## Briss

Vkj, that's sounds really good, I wonder about my acu practitioner cos she does not really specialise in fertility. Where do you get needles? I get mine in my head, between my breasts, two under my ribs and ovaries, one on my belly, three on each leg and two on arms - quite a few :) they are always the same but after O I get less needles on my legs. I also get electrics going through the belly and ovary needles. 

Blythe, I agree the temp rise is probably due to an hour difference. I usually adjust my temps if I cant take them at the right time on here https://www.whenmybaby.com/basalbodytemperature.php the later you take you temp the higher it will get. 

afm, just got back from my 5th acu appointment, it was very relaxing with cupping and massage after that, really nice. I did not get new herbs cos I still have some left from last week with these new herby pills twice a day I only managed to drink her teas once a day.

I was very good yesterday with my juices, I had my usual treat i.e. coffee with a piece of cake and also grapefruit but other than that I only had juices. Today I also had coffee/cake and herbal tea, will be making juices later and probably eat some watermelon. 

Re the tea, I usually mix them all together i.e. raspberry, red clover and nettles and add fresh mint for a better taste, it's really nice. but after O I only drink nettles.


----------



## Blythe

Briss said:


> Vkj, that's sounds really good, I wonder about my acu practitioner cos she does not really specialise in fertility. Where do you get needles? I get mine in my head, between my breasts, two under my ribs and ovaries, one on my belly, three on each leg and two on arms - quite a few :) they are always the same but after O I get less needles on my legs. I also get electrics going through the belly and ovary needles.
> 
> Blythe, I agree the temp rise is probably due to an hour difference. I usually adjust my temps if I cant take them at the right time on here https://www.whenmybaby.com/basalbodytemperature.php the later you take you temp the higher it will get.
> 
> afm, just got back from my 5th acu appointment, it was very relaxing with cupping and massage after that, really nice. I did not get new herbs cos I still have some left from last week with these new herby pills twice a day I only managed to drink her teas once a day.
> 
> I was very good yesterday with my juices, I had my usual treat i.e. coffee with a piece of cake and also grapefruit but other than that I only had juices. Today I also had coffee/cake and herbal tea, will be making juices later and probably eat some watermelon.
> 
> Re the tea, I usually mix them all together i.e. raspberry, red clover and nettles and add fresh mint for a better taste, it's really nice. but after O I only drink nettles.


that little calculator is brill and it has put my mind as ease - many thanks. Well done it sounds like you have had a couple of good healthy days and with your peaks days it perfect timing. I have been doing so well but not completely juicing as its just a bit too tuff for me right now. I just had to pop out to sainsburys and buy some chocolate.....its just too cold outside to be healthy!!! im going for a smear in the morning so its my compensation....then onto DTD as much as we can during the week and keeping everything crossed for a christmas BFP for me and you all too....


----------



## Briss

I know it was not a proper detox, but still i hope i gave my body a bit of a break. Had plenty of juices today and watermelon, Am very hungry so had a tiny piece of chocolate just to get rid of this feeling. am trying to hold on until tomorrow.

I had my smear two months ago and it happened to be on my O day, i was so concerned it can spoil my chances but a girl on bnb assured me that it is the other way around, she had her bfp on the cycle she had her smear test. unfortunately i was not lucky. I hope that's your month!

we also need to get a couple of more BD sessions today and tomorrow to cover all the basis. DH is not in the mood so will have to be creative...


----------



## vermeil

Just wanted to give a quick update - as said earlier on this thread I started acupuncture during my 2 month ivf cycle. Typically I should have started before but I hesitated for a while. Well I got my bfp so who knows if the acupuncture helped! It was a lot of appointments and rather expensive (it`s 75$ a visit, usually once a week but the week of egg retrieval / transfer I went like 4-5 times). You can be sure I'm continuing for these first few cautious weeks. I can`t prove that the acu helped but I certainly can`t prove that it didn`t! :haha:

My acu said some people get little effect from the treatments - me personally I leave there feeling soooooo relaxed - my appetite has improved and I sleep better. Just generally in a better mood. Of course being in an ivf cycle and so feeling that I was finally doing something proactive probably helped too:flower:


----------



## vkj73

Briss said:


> Vkj, that's sounds really good, I wonder about my acu practitioner cos she does not really specialise in fertility. Where do you get needles? I get mine in my head, between my breasts, two under my ribs and ovaries, one on my belly, three on each leg and two on arms - quite a few :) they are always the same but after O I get less needles on my legs. I also get electrics going through the belly and ovary needles.
> 
> Blythe, I agree the temp rise is probably due to an hour difference. I usually adjust my temps if I cant take them at the right time on here https://www.whenmybaby.com/basalbodytemperature.php the later you take you temp the higher it will get.
> 
> afm, just got back from my 5th acu appointment, it was very relaxing with cupping and massage after that, really nice. I did not get new herbs cos I still have some left from last week with these new herby pills twice a day I only managed to drink her teas once a day.
> 
> I was very good yesterday with my juices, I had my usual treat i.e. coffee with a piece of cake and also grapefruit but other than that I only had juices. Today I also had coffee/cake and herbal tea, will be making juices later and probably eat some watermelon.
> 
> Re the tea, I usually mix them all together i.e. raspberry, red clover and nettles and add fresh mint for a better taste, it's really nice. but after O I only drink nettles.

usually, one on the hand, one on the wrist, feet, lower leg area, and stomach/ovaries. it can vary a bit (i've had the forehead before). 
we shall see...
:hugs:


----------



## Blythe

vermeil said:


> Just wanted to give a quick update - as said earlier on this thread I started acupuncture during my 2 month ivf cycle. Typically I should have started before but I hesitated for a while. Well I got my bfp so who knows if the acupuncture helped! It was a lot of appointments and rather expensive (it`s 75$ a visit, usually once a week but the week of egg retrieval / transfer I went like 4-5 times). You can be sure I'm continuing for these first few cautious weeks. I can`t prove that the acu helped but I certainly can`t prove that it didn`t! :haha:
> 
> My acu said some people get little effect from the treatments - me personally I leave there feeling soooooo relaxed - my appetite has improved and I sleep better. Just generally in a better mood. Of course being in an ivf cycle and so feeling that I was finally doing something proactive probably helped too:flower:

congratulations that is lovely news:hugs:


----------



## Briss

vermeil, congratulation H&H 9 months!

VKJ, that's quite similar to what I have. my previous acupuncturist (also Chinese) placed quite a few needles in my ear for some reason

Cant say that I got a healthy temp rise this morning, it's rather small, not sure if it qualifies for O. anyway we BD every other day including my first peak, more often than that is not recommended for low sperm count so we could only do so much. I have a very tiny window between the end of my AF and O, about 4 days - not a lot of space for BD really. looking at my chart I cant say acupuncture and herbs made a lot of change here. I still ovulate rather early. Will see if my post O temp will form a nice curvy line. Once I finish the herbs I already paid for (probably another 3-4 weeks) I will only continue with acupuncture and go back to my usual supplements. Will be starting pineapples from tomorrow


----------



## Blythe

Middleton is pregnant....clearly being completely scrawny has not affected her fertility!


----------



## Briss

Blythe said:


> Middleton is pregnant....clearly being completely scrawny has not affected her fertility!

it took them a while so it might have. Somehow this news made me feel depressed ...


----------



## Blythe

Me too...


----------



## Blythe

Briss said:


> Blythe said:
> 
> 
> Middleton is pregnant....clearly being completely scrawny has not affected her fertility!
> 
> it took them a while so it might have. Somehow this news made me feel depressed ...Click to expand...

If Denise welch announces she's pregnant I'm going to go into hiding!


----------



## Briss

Denise welch seems to be doing IVF so ... 

cos of Middleton, now everyone is going to go crazy with all this talk about pregnancy etc, I am fleeing the country :) 

I had some soup and half sandwich for lunch but other than that just herbs and juices. I have been so good at cutting down chocolate and food in general. I am surprised really


----------



## Blythe

Briss said:


> Denise welch seems to be doing IVF so ...
> 
> cos of Middleton, now everyone is going to go crazy with all this talk about pregnancy etc, I am fleeing the country :)
> 
> I had some soup and half sandwich for lunch but other than that just herbs and juices. I have been so good at cutting down chocolate and food in general. I am surprised really

As expected everyone talking about it at work....the girl who is pregnant was boasting that she beat them to it as they married after but conceived earlier...I had to leave the office.

You are doing well....I had a juice for breakfast And a pack of rhubarb and custard sweets for lunch and a donut which were brought in for someone's birthday. Still il have soup tonight....


----------



## Briss

Blythe look at your positive OPK, time to get busy

Am meeting friends for dinner tonight so will be hard to stick to my diet. I've been craving anything chocolate, preferably croissant the whole day but so far has managed to go without 

Dh was very upset last night, his insurance refused to pay for urologist so we either have to wait for months for an NHS appointment or go privately but he is so put off by the whole experience that he does not even want to talk about it. men can be so sensitive. 

My temp is still quite low for post O levels despite all the herbs and FF seems to think that I O on CD10 which is super early and also we may have missed it cos we only BD once before CD10.


----------



## MalaMae

Hey ladies, I was looking in your charts and I remembered what my acu told me couple of session ago. He said it's not good the temps after ovulation to go up and down, but steady line is preferred. He was happy when he saw the last chart the temps were in a nice curve, instead of sharp ups and downs like in the previous months.

Btw, have you noticed an increase in the temperatures generally, through the whole month?


----------



## JandK

I have my first accupuncture appointment on Dec. 10. Looking forward to it. Not sure what to expect though..Me and my partner have tried doing inseminations for 7 cycles. 6 IUI and one with donor sperm and a softcup. We are using a sperm bank in Illinois. My FSH is high at 15 and I was put on thyroid meds in July for hypothyroidism. We are going to do another IUI in March right after my 40th birthday. Good luck everyone.


----------



## Blythe

MalaMae said:


> Hey ladies, I was looking in your charts and I remembered what my acu told me couple of session ago. He said it's not good the temps after ovulation to go up and down, but steady line is preferred. He was happy when he saw the last chart the temps were in a nice curve, instead of sharp ups and downs like in the previous months.
> 
> Btw, have you noticed an increase in the temperatures generally, through the whole month?

Hi malamae. I remember you saying that before. Mine are very jumpy so I'm introducing prog cream this cycle post ovulation....will see if that helps. Your temps are nice and smooth...have you got a positive opk yet? I swore I would relax this month and stear clear of all fertility stuff on line and opks but you know how it goes!!


----------



## Blythe

Briss said:


> Blythe look at your positive OPK, time to get busy
> 
> Am meeting friends for dinner tonight so will be hard to stick to my diet. I've been craving anything chocolate, preferably croissant the whole day but so far has managed to go without
> 
> Dh was very upset last night, his insurance refused to pay for urologist so we either have to wait for months for an NHS appointment or go privately but he is so put off by the whole experience that he does not even want to talk about it. men can be so sensitive.
> 
> My temp is still quite low for post O levels despite all the herbs and FF seems to think that I O on CD10 which is super early and also we may have missed it cos we only BD once before CD10.

Men are so so sensitive. I have been raising the subject of ivf for a while and he never wants to tAlk about it.....but last night surprised me and said he would be up for adoption....to be honest I just threw it into the mix and had not really given it much thought before but now I'm thinking about it. I will give this another 3/4 cycles then take some action. 

I wonder how much a private appt with a urologist will be? What do they do? 

I reckon you o on day 11.....the month I got pregnant with my son I only BD once that whole month.....I don't BD lots maybe 3/4 times around o..did last night so maybe late tonight or in morning. 

Enjoy your meal this evening....im eating again as just too hungry when I get home!


----------



## Blythe

JandK said:


> I have my first accupuncture appointment on Dec. 10. Looking forward to it. Not sure what to expect though..Me and my partner have tried doing inseminations for 7 cycles. 6 IUI and one with donor sperm and a softcup. We are using a sperm bank in Illinois. My FSH is high at 15 and I was put on thyroid meds in July for hypothyroidism. We are going to do another IUI in March right after my 40th birthday. Good luck everyone.

Hi......your first appt will be quite long as they should ask you lots of questions inc. all sorts of things your health and observe you and then check your pulse (on three different parts of your wrist) and check your tongue. TCM is a really nice gentle way of approaching health issues and can be very good for balancing your hormones ready for pregnancy...I have read so many amazing stories. I have tried a number of different practioners and I'm currently having a break from it....will return in the new year if I don't get my bfp this cycle. Let us know how your appt goes on the 10th...


----------



## JandK

Blythe said:


> JandK said:
> 
> 
> I have my first accupuncture appointment on Dec. 10. Looking forward to it. Not sure what to expect though..Me and my partner have tried doing inseminations for 7 cycles. 6 IUI and one with donor sperm and a softcup. We are using a sperm bank in Illinois. My FSH is high at 15 and I was put on thyroid meds in July for hypothyroidism. We are going to do another IUI in March right after my 40th birthday. Good luck everyone.
> 
> Hi......your first appt will be quite long as they should ask you lots of questions inc. all sorts of things your health and observe you and then check your pulse (on three different parts of your wrist) and check your tongue. TCM is a really nice gentle way of approaching health issues and can be very good for balancing your hormones ready for pregnancy...I have read so many amazing stories. I have tried a number of different practioners and I'm currently having a break from it....will return in the new year if I don't get my bfp this cycle. Let us know how your appt goes on the 10th...Click to expand...


Thanks for letting me know what will happen on my first visit. I will let you know how my visit goes...


----------



## Briss

MalaMay, I actually noticed a very prominent decrease in my temp (both before and after O) but so far post O temp seems to be forming an upward line and not fluctuating as much. Although O on CD 10 is super early and not normal for me. Your post O temp last cycle was rather good, I do not think I ever had such a steady line.

JandK, have you considered doing IVF with your DH's sperm instead of IUI? Are you also going to be taking Chinese herbs as well acu? I think acu is really good together with IVF/IUI but herbs are a bit controversial. Let us know how your appointment goes. 

Blythe, where did you get your prog cream? was it prescribed by FS? I just wander if I should try that as well. I have been raising the subject of ivf for a while with my DH but he said we should go to Spain cos it costs less there. I do not think it is a very good idea cos I have no idea how this works in Spain I do not speak the language and also all these trips are going to cost a lot plus taking time off work can be tricky. Not sure about prices for a private appt with a urologist but together with tests I am sure it's going to be not less than 1-2K. I want urologist to look at my hubby just to make sure everything is how it should be, no obstruction, lumps ect and also find out the reason for low sperm count. is it just beer and low testosterone as a result or is it something that cannot be treated so easily. and if it is just cos of low testosterone then get a prescription that can help with this. I also hope I o on day 11 rather than 10 (makes me feel more normal) not sure why FF is being so disagreeable.


----------



## MalaMae

Briss said:


> MalaMay, I actually noticed a very prominent decrease in my temp (both before and after O) but so far post O temp seems to be forming an upward line and not fluctuating as much. Although O on CD 10 is super early and not normal for me. Your post O temp last cycle was rather good, I do not think I ever had such a steady line.

Last month I had the same concern about O on CD10, but he said as long as the LP is normal, you don't have to worry. Besides my sister is convinced that she conceived her both kids in early-O month.
As for the line post-O, this was the first time I had such a steady line!


----------



## Blythe

Briss said:


> MalaMay, I actually noticed a very prominent decrease in my temp (both before and after O) but so far post O temp seems to be forming an upward line and not fluctuating as much. Although O on CD 10 is super early and not normal for me. Your post O temp last cycle was rather good, I do not think I ever had such a steady line.
> 
> JandK, have you considered doing IVF with your DH's sperm instead of IUI? Are you also going to be taking Chinese herbs as well acu? I think acu is really good together with IVF/IUI but herbs are a bit controversial. Let us know how your appointment goes.
> 
> Blythe, where did you get your prog cream? was it prescribed by FS? I just wander if I should try that as well. I have been raising the subject of ivf for a while with my DH but he said we should go to Spain cos it costs less there. I do not think it is a very good idea cos I have no idea how this works in Spain I do not speak the language and also all these trips are going to cost a lot plus taking time off work can be tricky. Not sure about prices for a private appt with a urologist but together with tests I am sure it's going to be not less than 1-2K. I want urologist to look at my hubby just to make sure everything is how it should be, no obstruction, lumps ect and also find out the reason for low sperm count. is it just beer and low testosterone as a result or is it something that cannot be treated so easily. and if it is just cos of low testosterone then get a prescription that can help with this. I also hope I o on day 11 rather than 10 (makes me feel more normal) not sure why FF is being so disagreeable.

Hi briss.....how many SA tests has dh had? If only one maybe you can get another from NHS..maybe that maca is working..yeah I think ivf costs abroad would be very attractive but it's just all the other stuff, as you say, work is a big one! I got the prog cream from eBay....I self diagnosed.....I spot during 2ww and jumpy temps so I'm going to give it a shot along with baby aspirin. Tbh probably blown it Put of the window by having a few drinks earlier with some old work friends....it wa so good to see them and work is so stressful at mo that I thought sod it! Probably ovulating today athough will see what ff says in a couple of days.


----------



## JandK

Briss said:


> MalaMay, I actually noticed a very prominent decrease in my temp (both before and after O) but so far post O temp seems to be forming an upward line and not fluctuating as much. Although O on CD 10 is super early and not normal for me. Your post O temp last cycle was rather good, I do not think I ever had such a steady line.
> 
> JandK, have you considered doing IVF with your DH's sperm instead of IUI? Are you also going to be taking Chinese herbs as well acu? I think acu is really good together with IVF/IUI but herbs are a bit controversial. Let us know how your appointment goes.
> 
> Blythe, where did you get your prog cream? was it prescribed by FS? I just wander if I should try that as well. I have been raising the subject of ivf for a while with my DH but he said we should go to Spain cos it costs less there. I do not think it is a very good idea cos I have no idea how this works in Spain I do not speak the language and also all these trips are going to cost a lot plus taking time off work can be tricky. Not sure about prices for a private appt with a urologist but together with tests I am sure it's going to be not less than 1-2K. I want urologist to look at my hubby just to make sure everything is how it should be, no obstruction, lumps ect and also find out the reason for low sperm count. is it just beer and low testosterone as a result or is it something that cannot be treated so easily. and if it is just cos of low testosterone then get a prescription that can help with this. I also hope I o on day 11 rather than 10 (makes me feel more normal) not sure why FF is being so disagreeable.


I am in a Lesbian relationship so there is no choice but to use donor sperm. We used fresh donor sperm when we used the softcup. We have talked about IVF but we just dont have the money. All of my fertility stuff comes out of our monthly budget. It is $500 for a vial of semen at the sperm bank that we go to. $100 of that is shipping.


----------



## Blythe

Cor! That's expensive! I used a soft cup today after dtd and I find it quite tricky to get it in right....I see you have another iui lined up so hopefully the acupuncture and herbs will get you nice and ready. It's all so bleeding expensive...I have been eyeing up iui and ivf but the costs are almost prohibitive!


----------



## Briss

MalaMae, it might be due to the weird herds we have been taking. I'll see what my temp does in the next few days and may be continue taking them if I also get such steady line. 

Blythe, My DH had 3 tests over the last couple of years, the first was really bad so we repeated it and it came back as 12 million, low count but still ok, then I put him on vitamins but this year his count dropped to below 3 million. Although he was drinking beer to excess. He is now trying to cut down. My FS refused to refer him to urologist, which is crazy they spent NHS money on taking me through very invasive and expensive procedures like lap while all the time she knew that the problem was DH's sperm count, it would have been much cheaper to look into his issues rather than mine but they do not work like that, they have a list of procedures aim at checking women and she just goes through the list ticking boxes to decide whether we qualify for IVF. so useless! You are right, spotting after O is usually a good indication of low progesterone. I started spotting after I had lap/hysteroscopy but only after AF for a couple of days so may be I should not do any extra progesterone. but then my temps are not as high which might also be due to lower progesterone. Looking at your chart you may even O yesterday cos you had a rise today. 

I continue with juices and back on pineapples :) I am so surprised I can last the entire day without chocolate


----------



## Briss

JandK, silly me :) and yes that's super expensive it's like paying $500 each time we BD, oh dear! 

Bluythe, I also bought softcups cos everyone is saying how great they are but when I saw them I just could not find it in me in put them in, they are huge and so tough I am afraid I will damage my cervix


----------



## Blythe

Briss said:


> MalaMae, it might be due to the weird herds we have been taking. I'll see what my temp does in the next few days and may be continue taking them if I also get such steady line.
> 
> Blythe, My DH had 3 tests over the last couple of years, the first was really bad so we repeated it and it came back as 12 million, low count but still ok, then I put him on vitamins but this year his count dropped to below 3 million. Although he was drinking beer to excess. He is now trying to cut down. My FS refused to refer him to urologist, which is crazy they spent NHS money on taking me through very invasive and expensive procedures like lap while all the time she knew that the problem was DH's sperm count, it would have been much cheaper to look into his issues rather than mine but they do not work like that, they have a list of procedures aim at checking women and she just goes through the list ticking boxes to decide whether we qualify for IVF. so useless! You are right, spotting after O is usually a good indication of low progesterone. I started spotting after I had lap/hysteroscopy but only after AF for a couple of days so may be I should not do any extra progesterone. but then my temps are not as high which might also be due to lower progesterone. Looking at your chart you may even O yesterday cos you had a rise today.
> 
> I continue with juices and back on pineapples :) I am so surprised I can last the entire day without chocolate

Yes very frustrating having to deal with the Nhs sometimes....they have their standard procedures to follow when common sense would be to further investigate the male fActor....it's always us ladies! I will Dtd in the am then that's probably it for this fertile period...will see if I get a raise in the am but if I did ovulate yesterday that will the earliest since I've started ttc. It's too cold to Dtd....I'm wearing so many layers!


----------



## JandK

I thought the softcups were obnoxiously big but other than that I found it easy to use.


----------



## Blythe

Hey bliss

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/...s-blaming-woman-baby-FEMAIL-investigates.html

Saw this this about poor sperm count


----------



## Briss

Blythe, thanks, I can relate to every line in this article makes me so furious! out FS would not even refer my DH to urologist. your chart is looking good, that's a definite temp raise

I have been quite bad today, had a chocolate cake for lunch and quite a few chocolates after that... 

My temp dropped today no steady line for me this cycle, these herbs did not work


----------



## Blythe

Got my cross lines today so if that's right I only BD once before ovulation. Had very bad period pains today so that's odd. I'm hoping the prog cream will keep the spotting at bay. 

I have had a juice today but also choc and sandwich....


----------



## Briss

Blythe, FF moved my O from CD10 to CD 11 so depending on your post O temps it may move yours too.

I am still making myself juices daily but I am back on chocolate, not as much as before but still


----------



## Blythe

I had two hot chocolates last night and a dairy milk at work.....it's this cold weather!

Just been looking at charts resulting in bfp and there's a few with jumpy temps so I've taken some comfort from them.

You are doing well with the juices.....80/20 rule good 8o% of time is on track!


----------



## Briss

this morning I found an acu needle in my laundry in the top I was wearing for my last acu session, was it left in my body? I am getting all worked up thinking part of it might still be there somewhere...


----------



## Blythe

I'm sure it just got caught up in your top when she removed it....does the needle appear complete? Call the when they next open and get them to tell you the exact length of the needles she usually uses....

It might even be worth calling nhs direct as they might be able to advise re any sensations you would be feeling with a foreign object in your body....

I think those needles are very strong and cannot imagine a piece breaking off but I'm no expert.

Bit worrying though!


----------



## Briss

i usually take my top off and it was hanging on the door, there is no way the needle could get there on its own, it only could get there from me :( I did have a feeling she forgot one needle but then I turned on my tummy for cupping and did not feel anything so I was sure it was out, apparently not. I have been having uncomfortable slight pain like feeling where the needle was supposed to be. I am due for another session tomorrow so will take the needle with me and ask. the needle looks complete with sharp end bit it was bended. I just feel that i am very unlucky


----------



## Blythe

That's not good at all....I hope she offers you some form of recompense! I hope you have a good relaxing session today.

Little bit of spotting for me this am and sore bbs but that must be the prog cream working. I've worked out my mil is due to stay during my next fertile period and theres no way we can dtd when she's staying (squeaky bed!) but I'm hoping il be able to hold off af with the prog cream!


----------



## Briss

Blythe, let's hope this is it and there wont be the next cycle for you!

my acu practitioner apologised for the needle but acted like it's no big deal, but most importantly the needle was complete I compared it to others and it was the same length so nothing stayed inside, huge relief. 

had another acu session today, got a few extra needles above and below my knees and also she mixed some new herbs, finally some variety. 

Also, i think I've lost a couple of kg, juices are starting to pay off but my acne got worse for some reason.


----------



## Blythe

Well done with the juicing....i have fallen off the wagon! But will pop out soon and get some carrots and beets and start again!

Thank god that needle was intact! What a worry. Good to see her mixing up new herbs...hope they have a positive effect for you. You ahould check out a meridian chart and ypu will prob start to recognise some of the points she is needling soon. Lots of stomach points below the knee on the outer edge of leg...inc st36 which you can press on yourself if you are feeling sluggish and it perks you up.


----------



## Briss

I am 8 DPO today so should probably stop pineapples just in case. So freezing today, could not bear cold juice. have been craving chocolate so badly, luckily was really busy at work all day so was able to keep my mind off chocolate. weighted myself today +1 kg since saturday, what the f..! looks like my weight does not really go down as much as it just fluctuates, so disappointing. 

My acu practitioner keeps asking the same questions like I told her I always feel cold and she asks every time if I feel warm. Obviously I do not, I cant even imagine how it feels like when you are warm and have warm hands and feet, that's just not me. can this really change with acu? and so quickly? 

I tried reading on meridians but it's so complicated. I know approximately where my points are cos they are almost the same every session but not sure how to check they mean. The one is in the middle of my tummy just below belly button whenever I get a needle there after O I am always so concerned she might be sticking it directly into a potential fetus. For some reason it seems to me that she is very sure I am not pregnant... :(


----------



## vkj73

briss,
just wanted to send you some :hugs:
the needle thing would have freaked me out too.

i spilled the residual liquid from my herb mix all over my 
bag today, and my friend's car who i carpool with.

i sure hope the needles, herbs, talking about bowel movements, thirst, etc
pays off for everyone!

:hugs:


----------



## Briss

Blythe, very nice temp spike, looks promising. 

VKJ, thanks! I sure hope so. I got a response from a guy who also had sperm issues (on a different forum) and he recommends acupuncture, cupping etc for men with low sperm counts. How I wish my hubby would agree to it.


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## Blythe

Bliss you have a nicetemp rise too....lets hope it continues.

I think stimulating points around your uterus and ovaries directly may help draw fresh blood to the area.....i used to get needled in my ovaries prior to ovulation and it hurt ALOT.....those needles go in deep.....some of mine nearly two inches.

How you getting with your herbs...are they yukky?


----------



## Briss

I had sleepless night so my temp spike is not pregnancy related unfortunately, well not yet at least

i get needles in my ovaries too prior to and post ovulation and I agree it hurts particularly cos she puts electrics through them. Apparently I have short needles under my ribs and feet and long needles everywhere else including ovaries and tummy. her routine does not change much regardless of whether I am before or after O. It worries me.

herbs are slightly different but still yukky &#61514; 

I am seriously thinking of going back on vitamins cos my acne is killing me, it just gets worse every day. while I was on vitamins for the first time in years I had almost clear face. I might be deficient in some vitamin which is causing acne.


----------



## Blythe

Yeah maybe look at reintroducing some of your usual vits....im sure they will be ok with your herbs. Were you taking the preconception multivit? I see lots of girls do acu and still keep up with the coq10.


----------



## MalaMae

Briss, the acne are from the detox, it's normal thing. I guess it's starting to work.
Me personally can't do detox since i'm missing an enzyme (!), but a friend of mine does it sometimes and she gets acne. So no worries :)


----------



## JandK

I had my first appointment on Monday and I really like the girl. She seems very knowledgable. She asked a lot of questions and checked my pulse etc. She gave me an herbal to use cd5-cd15. Its called Nourish Ren & Chong Formula its for my blood. I have clotting during my menses and she said that was concerning. I am an antsy person and laying there for 45 mins with the needles in was hard for me. Not painful though. i go back in three weeks.


----------



## Blythe

JandK said:


> I had my first appointment on Monday and I really like the girl. She seems very knowledgable. She asked a lot of questions and checked my pulse etc. She gave me an herbal to use cd5-cd15. Its called Nourish Ren & Chong Formula its for my blood. I have clotting during my menses and she said that was concerning. I am an antsy person and laying there for 45 mins with the needles in was hard for me. Not painful though. i go back in three weeks.

Hi - that sounds like a promising start - its great when you get someone you feel comfortable with and can really talk too. My issues have sometimes been with the language barrier and lack of questions on subsequent appts. laying their for 45 mins can be difficult although plenty here go to sleep inc. me. I thought she would have wanted to see you before 3 weeks - has she given you enough herbs for 3 weeks?


----------



## Blythe

Briss said:


> I had sleepless night so my temp spike is not pregnancy related unfortunately, well not yet at least
> 
> i get needles in my ovaries too prior to and post ovulation and I agree it hurts particularly cos she puts electrics through them. Apparently I have short needles under my ribs and feet and long needles everywhere else including ovaries and tummy. her routine does not change much regardless of whether I am before or after O. It worries me.
> 
> herbs are slightly different but still yukky &#61514;
> 
> I am seriously thinking of going back on vitamins cos my acne is killing me, it just gets worse every day. while I was on vitamins for the first time in years I had almost clear face. I might be deficient in some vitamin which is causing acne.

Hello Briss

this guy seems to know what hes talking about...

https://www.acubalance.ca/content/which-acupuncture-points-should-be-avoided-during-luteal-phase


----------



## Briss

my acne has got to a point where I just feel embarrassed to show my face, hiding under my desk at the moment. it's really disgusting. I had to make a presentation yesterday so I covered the spots with concealer but when I took it off last night they looked so much worse. I am not sure I can blame it on detox cos with these client events I had to eat and drink a lot of rubbish last couple of days so probably not detoxing anymore, still drinking juices though every day.

I am thinking of going back to coq10, EPO and pregnacare from CD1. It's been two cycles without vitamins so I guess it's time

JandK, I agree with Blythe, once very 3 weeks seems a bit too long. I do mine every week and I know some do it even twice a week. plus herbs twice a day. My session usually lasts for 30 min but together with cupping and massage for about 1 hour. 

Blythe, thanks for the link, really interesting! the problem is that my acupuncturist may not have lots of experience and additional professional development in infertility and pregnancy care. She treated a few infertile couples and also helped to prevent miscarriage but overall it is not where she specialises. I chose her because I can trust her, my friend's family has been going to her for years and are very happy with her treatments but all not fertility related. I figured that Chinese medicine looks at the body as a whole so anything she does should approve my general health and fertility as a result. Still, my next session is on Sunday and I will be 14 DPO &#8211; really scared to get needles into my belly so will probably (unless AF shows up uninvited) do what I never do these days i.e. test, just to be sure and be able to relax during the procedure.


----------



## Blythe

i had a disappointing temp dip today and am feeling the familiar cramps that i tend to get a few days before period. Im a little gutted but not as gutted as other months....im pleased with the prog cream as i have not had spotting so that is an improvement....will up my COQ10 this month to 600mg if i do enter a new cycle and drag my arse down to the chinese place near my house that i checked out a couple of months ago. I know my body so well now that im 99% sure im out this month. Still means i can drink lots of booze on christmas day!


----------



## Briss

Blythe, do not want to raise your hopes up but no spotting is a very good sign, a fellow B&B member had spotting after 10 DPO every cycle and the only cycle she did not get spotting was when she got her BFP (after TTC for 8 years!), Also you have another 6 days before AF is due and who knows it might have been implantation deep. Let's hope so. Although I do take your point about knowing your body I feel the same way. I will go back to 300 coq10 and then see how it goes. Observing your temp can be so stressful you cant help it but get your hopes up, I stopped doing it and only temped to check my O date but acu practitioner asked me to temp full cycle so I am back on obsessing about my temp


----------



## Blythe

Briss said:


> Blythe, do not want to raise your hopes up but no spotting is a very good sign, a fellow B&B member had spotting after 10 DPO every cycle and the only cycle she did not get spotting was when she got her BFP (after TTC for 8 years!), Also you have another 6 days before AF is due and who knows it might have been implantation deep. Let's hope so. Although I do take your point about knowing your body I feel the same way. I will go back to 300 coq10 and then see how it goes. Observing your temp can be so stressful you cant help it but get your hopes up, I stopped doing it and only temped to check my O date but acu practitioner asked me to temp full cycle so I am back on obsessing about my temp

Thank you for those encouraging words. I can hardly imagine the joy i will feel when i get that bfp.....the temping does have its downfalls but then benefits too......it breaks up the 2ww and sometimes gives me glimmers of hope and helps me prepare mentally for period. I think its good you are going back to coq10....the more i read about it the more i think that will make the difference.


----------



## Briss

my temp started its inevitable descend, woke up with lots of cramps, AF is on her way, might not even get to test on Sunday. am supposed to go to the firm's Christmas party tonight and although I am 99.9% sure I am out still wont feel comfortable drinking cos of "what if" thoughts in my head. LTTTC is no fun, just pain. may not even bother covering my acne for tonight, who cares


----------



## Blythe

Briss said:


> my temp started its inevitable descend, woke up with lots of cramps, AF is on her way, might not even get to test on Sunday. am supposed to go to the firm's Christmas party tonight and although I am 99.9% sure I am out still wont feel comfortable drinking cos of "what if" thoughts in my head. LTTTC is no fun, just pain. may not even bother covering my acne for tonight, who cares

Ltttc is crap and your message made me feel sad. Im sure you will be fine having a drink or two tonight. I know exactly how you feel....im having the same cramps and will be having a drink tonight. DH just said "smile, its friday"...feel like telling him to piss off!


----------



## myra

I'm coming in late to this thread as I see it was posted in August...but if you're still looking for positive stories, wanted to share that Acupuncture worked for me.

I had an early miscarriage in June and in July started seeing an acupuncturist who specializes in fertility. My OH and I took a cycle off from ttc after the mc, and 2 cycles later I was pregnant. I'm certain the acupuncture played a key role in getting pregnant, maintaining my pregnancy and keeping my morning sickness on the mild side. 

Before acupuncture, my cycles ranged from 26-32 days and O happened between days 11-20. The treatments brought me to regular 28 day cycles with O on days 13/14.

I went weekly from July through through first trimester. Now that I'm entering second tri, I am dropping down to every other week.

Best of luck to all of you!!!:hugs:


----------



## ~Brandy~

Hi Everyone! I am a little late to the party too..

I am in my 3rd week of acu treatment for fertility. I am hoping and praying that something works soon!


----------



## vkj73

welcome myra and brandy!

so, an update, i went to a fertility specialist today. he said my eggs look great, but due to my irregular cycles and age (39) he recommend clomid and iui.

niether my dh or i want to go this route.

i'd really like to stick with as many natural methods as possible.
i actually just posted on the 1st trimester thread to see if any mamas
go their bfps with all natural methods.

the doctor was able to show me that i either had or am about to ov, so that gave me some hope (esp. since i just had a peak on the cbfm this morning).

:dust: for all!!!


----------



## Blythe

myra said:


> I'm coming in late to this thread as I see it was posted in August...but if you're still looking for positive stories, wanted to share that Acupuncture worked for me.
> 
> I had an early miscarriage in June and in July started seeing an acupuncturist who specializes in fertility. My OH and I took a cycle off from ttc after the mc, and 2 cycles later I was pregnant. I'm certain the acupuncture played a key role in getting pregnant, maintaining my pregnancy and keeping my morning sickness on the mild side.
> 
> Before acupuncture, my cycles ranged from 26-32 days and O happened between days 11-20. The treatments brought me to regular 28 day cycles with O on days 13/14.
> 
> I went weekly from July through through first trimester. Now that I'm entering second tri, I am dropping down to every other week.
> 
> Best of luck to all of you!!!:hugs:

Myra....wonderful news! H&H rest of your pregnancy x


----------



## Blythe

vkj73 said:


> welcome myra and brandy!
> 
> so, an update, i went to a fertility specialist today. he said my eggs look great, but due to my irregular cycles and age (39) he recommend clomid and iui.
> 
> niether my dh or i want to go this route.
> 
> i'd really like to stick with as many natural methods as possible.
> i actually just posted on the 1st trimester thread to see if any mamas
> go their bfps with all natural methods.
> 
> the doctor was able to show me that i either had or am about to ov, so that gave me some hope (esp. since i just had a peak on the cbfm this morning).
> 
> :dust: for all!!!

Hi vkj.....how does he know your eggs look great? I only say that coz i had an internal scan a few weeks back and she said i had lots of eggs ive never done a amh test or whatever its called. My dh is going to do a SA next week (they messed up the last one) and if it comes back rubbish i may look at iui or perhaps chinese herbs and acu for him as well as me. Felt terribly sad last night as know AF is on way but feel better today as im thinking of the next plan of action!

Get BD! :happydance:


----------



## Blythe

~Brandy~ said:


> Hi Everyone! I am a little late to the party too..
> 
> I am in my 3rd week of acu treatment for fertility. I am hoping and praying that something works soon!

Hi brandy. Are you enjoying it? I will be going back to it as ive had a break for a few cycles (££££££ reasons) but with after another BFN due any day now im going to embrace the needles and pond water tea once again!


----------



## ~Brandy~

I am enjoying it. I actually started during my week of ovulation. She just uses different points for different parts of the cycle.

Today is CD1 for me here we go again :(


----------



## Blythe

Wow you dont look old enough to have a 20 yo! Im a couple of days behind you....sorry AF got you....:nope:


----------



## Briss

Myra, congratulations!! H&H rest of your pregnancy

VKJ, I also really want to try naturally although after 2 years and with poor sperm count it seems less and less likely. I may give it another couple of cycles and hope my hubby will come to accept the inevitable by then and we move to IVF

Brandy, welcome! it's great that your acu doc uses different points for different parts of the cycle. Mine uses the same so I am beginning to think that although she is a great doc she may know that much about fertility. I am still going to stick with her cos I still think acu improves my health in general.

Blythe, do not lose hope you still have a while to go before AF is due, there is still time for implantation.

afm, temp dropped this morning and AF is almost here I am hoping I can hold it until tomorrow cos 12 day LH phase would be very unusual for me. If it comes today that would probably mean I and FF got my O day wrong and I O on CD10 so we did not have enough BD.


----------



## vkj73

Blythe said:


> vkj73 said:
> 
> 
> welcome myra and brandy!
> 
> so, an update, i went to a fertility specialist today. he said my eggs look great, but due to my irregular cycles and age (39) he recommend clomid and iui.
> 
> niether my dh or i want to go this route.
> 
> i'd really like to stick with as many natural methods as possible.
> i actually just posted on the 1st trimester thread to see if any mamas
> go their bfps with all natural methods.
> 
> the doctor was able to show me that i either had or am about to ov, so that gave me some hope (esp. since i just had a peak on the cbfm this morning).
> 
> :dust: for all!!!
> 
> Hi vkj.....how does he know your eggs look great? I only say that coz i had an internal scan a few weeks back and she said i had lots of eggs ive never done a amh test or whatever its called. My dh is going to do a SA next week (they messed up the last one) and if it comes back rubbish i may look at iui or perhaps chinese herbs and acu for him as well as me. Felt terribly sad last night as know AF is on way but feel better today as im thinking of the next plan of action!
> 
> Get BD! :happydance:Click to expand...

I think he meant the numbers look great.


----------



## Blythe

vkj73 said:


> Blythe said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> vkj73 said:
> 
> 
> welcome myra and brandy!
> 
> so, an update, i went to a fertility specialist today. he said my eggs look great, but due to my irregular cycles and age (39) he recommend clomid and iui.
> 
> niether my dh or i want to go this route.
> 
> i'd really like to stick with as many natural methods as possible.
> i actually just posted on the 1st trimester thread to see if any mamas
> go their bfps with all natural methods.
> 
> the doctor was able to show me that i either had or am about to ov, so that gave me some hope (esp. since i just had a peak on the cbfm this morning).
> 
> :dust: for all!!!
> 
> Hi vkj.....how does he know your eggs look great? I only say that coz i had an internal scan a few weeks back and she said i had lots of eggs ive never done a amh test or whatever its called. My dh is going to do a SA next week (they messed up the last one) and if it comes back rubbish i may look at iui or perhaps chinese herbs and acu for him as well as me. Felt terribly sad last night as know AF is on way but feel better today as im thinking of the next plan of action!
> 
> Get BD! :happydance:Click to expand...
> 
> I think he meant the numbers look great.Click to expand...

Thats great news and very reassuring.


----------



## Briss

I am reading a very interesting book on how Chinese medicine works and it says that a TCM practitioner can say by your pulse whether you are pregnant, it has to be deep and slippery apparently. not surprisingly whenever I asked her after O that I could be pregnant so careful with the needles she seemed to be ignoring me, she checks my pulse every time so i guess that's how she knew I was not pregnant


----------



## Blythe

Its really interesting isnt it....i think they say if there a number of slippery pulses then there may be a pregnancy...are you going today? 

I got a negative this am as expected. I only did the test so i can stop the prog cream.....im going to the tcm guy in balham today and will talk to them about a programme that i can afford and that gives me a better chance. I will do this for three months and then in the meantime look into iui dependent upon dh's SA results which he will do Again later this week. I wonder how much a natural IVF would be...do you think about 4k?


----------



## Briss

Sorry about your bfn, still it's too early to test. I did not bother testing today, no need my temp speaks for itself, cant bear seeing bfns. AF is not here yet for which I am greatful cos really hate it when I get short cycles, that's a side effect that i got from my lap&Dye/Hysteroscopy, my cycles went crazy short. Am off to my last 7th sessions but determined to extend it if they offer the same deal. Ordered some more herbs for my hubby. Poor DH he already knows if my temp goes down I am gonna be really depressed for days so he trying to exercise more cos it supposed to increase his testosterone levels :) sweet but deep down I know that's not gonna be enough, we really should move to IVF. 

Natural IVF is way cheaper than normal IVF cos most of the cost goes into stimulating meds and in natural IVF you do not have any meds. They never put the prices for meds on their websites which is bizarre cos meds are 2-3 times the cost of IVF itself. A lady on B&B did two natural IVF cycles at Create Health, one was 3500 and the other 5000 cos they added some meds. We will have to do it with ICSI so I think ours will come to around 5000. but again I am hoping no meds will be necessary.

Natural Cycle IVF: £2450
Natural/Modified cycle ICSI (in addition to cycle fee): £870
Natural/Modified cycle IVM & ICSI (in addition to cycle fee): £1000
Stimulated Cycle IVF: £2950 (this does not include the meds)
ICSI (in addition to cycle fee): £950


----------



## Blythe

Hey briss....thanks for info...i suppose the other costs are all the consultancy fees and any testing they need to do inc. SA and bloods, scans etc as my nhs ones might be out of date by the time i do iui/ivf. 

Its awful that those tests affected your cycles like that....i was considering pushing for an hsg but think il leave it to be honest.

That is very sweet of your DH...i think it hard for men but they are just wired differently to us. My one said i should hold out from going to the tcm practice till he gets his SA results back but i ignored him and have just come back with a bag of herbs and had a session. I explained that i effectively chucked a load of cash down the drain this year as that is how i feel about my last experience of tcm. The bags of herbs are small so not impressed with that! I got 5 sessions Acu and 5 weeks of herbs for £268 but he says i should be able to cut back on the berbs when my body temp has come up and my hands and feet are not so cold.....we will see. He said its fine to continue with all my other bits and bods i take as long as i take them around an hour after my herbs.


----------



## Blythe

Briss said:


> Sorry about your bfn, still it's too early to test. I did not bother testing today, no need my temp speaks for itself, cant bear seeing bfns. AF is not here yet for which I am greatful cos really hate it when I get short cycles, that's a side effect that i got from my lap&Dye/Hysteroscopy, my cycles went crazy short. Am off to my last 7th sessions but determined to extend it if they offer the same deal. Ordered some more herbs for my hubby. Poor DH he already knows if my temp goes down I am gonna be really depressed for days so he trying to exercise more cos it supposed to increase his testosterone levels :) sweet but deep down I know that's not gonna be enough, we really should move to IVF.
> 
> Natural IVF is way cheaper than normal IVF cos most of the cost goes into stimulating meds and in natural IVF you do not have any meds. They never put the prices for meds on their websites which is bizarre cos meds are 2-3 times the cost of IVF itself. A lady on B&B did two natural IVF cycles at Create Health, one was 3500 and the other 5000 cos they added some meds. We will have to do it with ICSI so I think ours will come to around 5000. but again I am hoping no meds will be necessary.
> 
> Natural Cycle IVF: £2450
> Natural/Modified cycle ICSI (in addition to cycle fee): £870
> Natural/Modified cycle IVM & ICSI (in addition to cycle fee): £1000
> Stimulated Cycle IVF: £2950 (this does not include the meds)
> ICSI (in addition to cycle fee): £950

PS....im 12 dpo as i ovulated earlier this cycle my BFN along with symptoms and declining temp provides me with enough certainty that im out this month.....i have also just brought 4 bottles of cava,1 x champagne, 1 x red and baileys....for xmas day and its only us two drinking. It has been a tuff year.


----------



## Hope3

I'm now in my 4th week of acupuncture. He's got me on Xiao Jian Zhong Tang as a tonic and to improve my circulation. I guess it's still early days but I really hope it works.


----------



## Blythe

Hi hope

Do you have it in pill form or powder? I only ask as i received my herbal powder sachets today and it seems there is only about a teaspoon worth in each bag (2 x day) which i think is quite mean! My last place gave my at least three times that amount although i suspect some of that was filler to make it taste better as it tasted ok (which is rare i think?!?)


----------



## Briss

Blythe, your prices are really good, I pay 220 for 6 weeks of herbs and 150 for 7 weeks of acu and I thought I got a great deal :) I extended my acu sessions for another 7 weeks. Got more herbs today. My acu practitioner did not even bother checking my pulse she looked at my temp and probably realised that I cant be pregnant so got my usual needles in my tummy. I got a few extra needles in my face :) to treat acne which got really bad. I am so hoping it will help. 

I had two large glasses of red wine today and lots of coffee... I am still holding on to my cycle although had quite a bit of brown spotting today. I would usually put it as Cd1 but decided to follow chinese approach and wait for a proper red flow to start as CD1. Also it adds extra day to my shorter cycle which is nice :) will be starting my vitamins tomorrow and EPO


----------



## vkj73

hello ladies!
just wanted to send a little :dust:

i looked up my herbs online (they are powder form).

Qi and Blood Deficiency:
Shi Quan Da Bu Tang can be used to replenish vital
energy, nourish the Qi and blood, promoting essence.

lots of love to all:hugs:


----------



## Blythe

Briss said:


> Blythe, your prices are really good, I pay 220 for 6 weeks of herbs and 150 for 7 weeks of acu and I thought I got a great deal :) I extended my acu sessions for another 7 weeks. Got more herbs today. My acu practitioner did not even bother checking my pulse she looked at my temp and probably realised that I cant be pregnant so got my usual needles in my tummy. I got a few extra needles in my face :) to treat acne which got really bad. I am so hoping it will help.
> 
> I had two large glasses of red wine today and lots of coffee... I am still holding on to my cycle although had quite a bit of brown spotting today. I would usually put it as Cd1 but decided to follow chinese approach and wait for a proper red flow to start as CD1. Also it adds extra day to my shorter cycle which is nice :) will be starting my vitamins tomorrow and EPO

Your herbs are 36 per week and mine are 33. Your acu is 21 per session and mine works out at 20 so not too much difference. Its cheaper than my old place. The herbs they have given me are not so plentiful but i think thet used to bulk my old ones up with liquirice as they used to taste ok! Will have my first batch this am.

Hope the treatment helps with the spots....maybe that was just a symptom of your body rebalancing and having a clear out.

I ignore spotting a day or two before period and always count red flow as cd1.


----------



## Blythe

Briss said:


> Blythe, your prices are really good, I pay 220 for 6 weeks of herbs and 150 for 7 weeks of acu and I thought I got a great deal :) I extended my acu sessions for another 7 weeks. Got more herbs today. My acu practitioner did not even bother checking my pulse she looked at my temp and probably realised that I cant be pregnant so got my usual needles in my tummy. I got a few extra needles in my face :) to treat acne which got really bad. I am so hoping it will help.
> 
> I had two large glasses of red wine today and lots of coffee... I am still holding on to my cycle although had quite a bit of brown spotting today. I would usually put it as Cd1 but decided to follow chinese approach and wait for a proper red flow to start as CD1. Also it adds extra day to my shorter cycle which is nice :) will be starting my vitamins tomorrow and EPO


Hey Briss

what do you take EPO for?


----------



## Briss

sometimes EPO helps delay my O for a day or two giving me a slightly longer 27-28 day cycle. it does not work every time though. 

I am officially out for 2012 BFP :( bring on 2013

Got a couple of new spots this morning&#8230;


----------



## Cala

I had to comment... $150 for 7 weeks... I'm dropping $85 per visit!!! LOL


----------



## Blythe

:hugs: for spots and :hugs: for stupid AF! Lets hope 2013 is the year it all happens - im sure it will be.

I might leave the EPO as my cycle length is ok...i awoke to horrid cramps so just want AF to turn up - today is 13 dpo so hopefully tomorrow or weds latest. Thankfully my MIL is not now coming to stay over the NY so we can DTD without fear of discovery.

My acu doc said eat lamb and beef but dont touch PORK as i think its not a warming food. My herbs defo have ginger in them as its the only sensation i felt in my mouth after taking them this am. I have ordered some vit D3 and calcium as i was reading about them last night. I have no idea if im deficient but i like to throw something new into the mix each month.


----------



## Briss

Cala said:


> I had to comment... $150 for 7 weeks... I'm dropping $85 per visit!!! LOL

150 sterling not dollars but you are right it's relatively cheap, I have Zita West's clinic next door which is a famous fertility specialist around here and she charges 110 sterling for every session...


----------



## Blythe

Cala said:


> I had to comment... $150 for 7 weeks... I'm dropping $85 per visit!!! LOL

ouch!! thats about £50 for us UK girls - I would struggle with that over a long period of time. There are plenty in London that charge that and some....Some of the so called fertility gurus charge about £80/90 per session so thats about $135 and they have massive waiting lists.


----------



## Blythe

Briss said:


> Cala said:
> 
> 
> I had to comment... $150 for 7 weeks... I'm dropping $85 per visit!!! LOL
> 
> 150 sterling not dollars but you are right it's relatively cheap, I have Zita West's clinic next door which is a famous fertility specialist around here and she charges 110 sterling for every session...Click to expand...

£110 is just shocking!!


----------



## Briss

I also have a very good feeling about 2013, according to Chinese calendar it's a year of the snake

It's silly but I was hoping for some miracle up until AF turned red this morning, even though my temp dropped to all time low I was still (deep down) hoping what if, but of course no such luck&#8230; cramps can be a sign of pregnancy you never know, there is still hope.

Most people take EPO to increase their EWCM but in some cases it has the opposite effect of drying it up (like in my case). I still take EPO but compensate with plenty of grapefruit juice starting from today. 

We will be BD over Christmas which is fine cos there will be just the two of us. I do not like ginger but I think it does have some warming effect. I take vit D and calcium (there is also some Vit D in pregnacare). I think everyone living in the UK is deficient in D, particularly during winter 

Did you acu doc say anything about duck or turkey? I hope they are warming


----------



## Briss

Blythe said:


> Cala said:
> 
> 
> I had to comment... $150 for 7 weeks... I'm dropping $85 per visit!!! LOL
> 
> ouch!! thats about £50 for us UK girls - I would struggle with that over a long period of time. There are plenty in London that charge that and some....Some of the so called fertility gurus charge about £80/90 per session so thats about $135 and they have massive waiting lists.Click to expand...

I think £50 is average in London and up until I met my current acu practitioner I thought it was the cheapest you can get around here.


----------



## Briss

Blythe said:


> Briss said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cala said:
> 
> 
> I had to comment... $150 for 7 weeks... I'm dropping $85 per visit!!! LOL
> 
> 150 sterling not dollars but you are right it's relatively cheap, I have Zita West's clinic next door which is a famous fertility specialist around here and she charges 110 sterling for every session...Click to expand...
> 
> £110 is just shocking!!Click to expand...

I know! Can you imagine by today I would have paid 770 as apposed to 150quite a difference! but also I think Chinese doctors might even be better at acu cos they were practicing for years and years in China before coming here


----------



## Blythe

Briss said:


> Blythe said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Briss said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cala said:
> 
> 
> I had to comment... $150 for 7 weeks... I'm dropping $85 per visit!!! LOL
> 
> 150 sterling not dollars but you are right it's relatively cheap, I have Zita West's clinic next door which is a famous fertility specialist around here and she charges 110 sterling for every session...Click to expand...
> 
> £110 is just shocking!!Click to expand...
> 
> I know! Can you imagine by today I would have paid 770 as apposed to 150quite a difference! but also I think Chinese doctors might even be better at acu cos they were practicing for years and years in China before coming hereClick to expand...

100% agree with you on that one. 3 years studying acupuncture at a brit uni perhaps with herbs (usually not!) and then a few weekend study 'zita' courses [paid for rather than attendance on merit] and possibly a couple of study trips/periods in china simply does not compare to some of these chinese docs in the uk who studied for years in chinese hospitals in many cases using it alongside western medicine. whether they state they specialise in fertility or not is sometimes not relevant as they all do the same which is providing balance in your body giving it the best chance to, perhaps fight disease, or in our case, get preggo!! the language barrier is an issue that is for sure but intuitively i feel better with a chinese practitioner. 

Im meant to be finishing a research paper for work and i am really struggling to focus!!!


----------



## Briss

same here, was supposed to draft a contract but come on it's CD1 I really cant be bothered. luckily for me no one is chasing me yet. I am getting ready to make myself a wheatgrass shot, really hate this stuff but I must. Also am going to reflexology tonight will ask to make it stronger so it has more effect on me.

the language barrier is an issue I totally agree, we do not talk much because it's just hard and creates confusion. I was even thinking of filling in the form setting out my deficiencies etc. and give it to her so her assistant would translate but I figured she can just look at me and see all she needs to know. 

I read today that apparently craving sweats is one of the signs of spleen deficiency (I have other signs as well so this is definitely my deficiency area) but what is interesting is that since I started acu I crave chocolate less and less. At first I thought it was me being disciplined and trying to cut down on this stuff so i lose a bit of weight but I was still craving it and last week I noticed that I actually can go without for days and it is not very difficult for me anymore. It's truly amazing cos normally I would go through 100 gm chocolate bar well before lunchtime and quite often would start on another one, then I would have a few more chocolates in the afternoon and obviously plenty more when I get home. so not having any chocolate for a few days and do not feel miserable is really strange.


----------



## Blythe

Briss said:


> same here, was supposed to draft a contract but come on it's CD1 I really cant be bothered. luckily for me no one is chasing me yet. I am getting ready to make myself a wheatgrass shot, really hate this stuff but I must. Also am going to reflexology tonight will ask to make it stronger so it has more effect on me.
> 
> the language barrier is an issue I totally agree, we do not talk much because it's just hard and creates confusion. I was even thinking of filling in the form setting out my deficiencies etc. and give it to her so her assistant would translate but I figured she can just look at me and see all she needs to know.
> 
> I read today that apparently craving sweats is one of the signs of spleen deficiency (I have other signs as well so this is definitely my deficiency area) but what is interesting is that since I started acu I crave chocolate less and less. At first I thought it was me being disciplined and trying to cut down on this stuff so i lose a bit of weight but I was still craving it and last week I noticed that I actually can go without for days and it is not very difficult for me anymore. It's truly amazing cos normally I would go through 100 gm chocolate bar well before lunchtime and quite often would start on another one, then I would have a few more chocolates in the afternoon and obviously plenty more when I get home. so not having any chocolate for a few days and do not feel miserable is really strange.

i love choc too - sometimes used to get choc hangovers! That is great that you are craving it less and impressive that your treatments are having such a good effect and you are responding. All heading in the right direction! I brought a couple of tubs of chocs for work colleagues but ate almost the entire contents of one on sunday and gave DH the rest to take into work or else it would have been in the bin covered in washing up liquid to deter retrieval! 

i just had second herbal concoction of day and added my maca powder - never again - double yuk!!


----------



## Briss

I went for reflexology last night- really enjoyed it! I asked them to concentrate on my reproductive organs (not even sure if reflexology works like that) but they said after the session that everything seems to be fine. I am trying to do it once a month to improve circulation.

I also decided to force myself to drink one wheatgrass shot a day. It tastes awful but I have not done it consistently so want to try for at least a month to see if anything changes. 

I told my hubby that I do not want any presents for Christmas, the only useful thing he can do is get himself to see a urologist :) it's sad but this would honestly be the best Christmas present for me at this point &#8230;


----------



## Blythe

Briss said:


> I went for reflexology last night- really enjoyed it! I asked them to concentrate on my reproductive organs (not even sure if reflexology works like that) but they said after the session that everything seems to be fine. I am trying to do it once a month to improve circulation.
> 
> I also decided to force myself to drink one wheatgrass shot a day. It tastes awful but I have not done it consistently so want to try for at least a month to see if anything changes.
> 
> I told my hubby that I do not want any presents for Christmas, the only useful thing he can do is get himself to see a urologist :) it's sad but this would honestly be the best Christmas present for me at this point



Wheatgrass is horrid! Im going to cut back on wheatgrass only because i thinks its a cooling food in TCM terms but i will continue with the maca shot which is equally horrid.

The reflexology sounds good - ive heard very good thinks about it and im sure it will compliment your acu and herbs too.

I had words with DH last night as hes always pouring wine down his neck (used to be beer before he realised it made him put on weight). Hes going for a SA hopefully on friday so should get results in new year.


----------



## vkj73

i went to my 3rd appointment for this cycle.

fewer needles 
(one at the top of my head this time for drawing things upwards).

i got a slightly modified version of the powders i've been taking.
i'm still taking 4 mini-spoonfuls, 2xs a day.

i'm hoping switching my decaf coffee for the hot water and powder
will bring on a :bfp: (that goes for everyone).
:dust:


----------



## Blythe

vkj73 said:


> i went to my 3rd appointment for this cycle.
> 
> fewer needles
> (one at the top of my head this time for drawing things upwards).
> 
> i got a slightly modified version of the powders i've been taking.
> i'm still taking 4 mini-spoonfuls, 2xs a day.
> 
> i'm hoping switching my decaf coffee for the hot water and powder
> will bring on a :bfp: (that goes for everyone).
> :dust:

Hi vkj

i cannot remember a treatment where i did not get a needle in the centre of top of head...your comments made me do a bit of googling (anything to avoid work!!) and i found this...

https://www.acupuncture.com/newsletters/m_nov08/baihui fengchi.htm

Its good you are looking at getting away from decaf....I have given up my daily tea and replaced it with nettle teas and just hot water which is ok on a cold morning. I do still have occasional tea/coffee though but its no longer something i cant do without which is a brill feeling!

keeping everything crossed for us all to get our BFP :dust:


----------



## Blythe

just had momentary breakdown...I just could not face work today and called in sick. Lack of sleep and just the last few months of heartbreak seems to have taken its toll. Im actually feeling ok now and maybe just needed to have a good cry.

LTTTC is a pile of crap!!


----------



## Briss

My book which is very detailed on the acu points and herbs and everything Chinese says that this point at the top of my head (which I also get every time) is called Du20 or Hundred meetings. I do not know what it means yet but it lifts Yang Qi and Spleen energies, lifts the spirit, strengthen the memory and clears the mind, it also stops bleeding in spleen Qi deficient 

Blythe, your temp is looking good, any symptoms?


----------



## Briss

Blythe said:


> just had momentary breakdown...I just could not face work today and called in sick. Lack of sleep and just the last few months of heartbreak seems to have taken its toll. Im actually feeling ok now and maybe just needed to have a good cry.
> 
> LTTTC is a pile of crap!!

LTTTC is really hard and heart-breaking at times, particularly I find the last few days of your period when your hopes are getting up and the first few days when these hopes are crashed. I am very sorry you are going through this, sending lots of baby dust your way and hoping for a BFP :dust:


----------



## Blythe

Briss said:


> Blythe said:
> 
> 
> just had momentary breakdown...I just could not face work today and called in sick. Lack of sleep and just the last few months of heartbreak seems to have taken its toll. Im actually feeling ok now and maybe just needed to have a good cry.
> 
> LTTTC is a pile of crap!!
> 
> LTTTC is really hard and heart-breaking at times, particularly I find the last few days of your period when your hopes are getting up and the first few days when these hopes are crashed. I am very sorry you are going through this, sending lots of baby dust your way and hoping for a BFP :dust:Click to expand...

Thank you....You are right its just those last few days before AF when you know she is on way. My temps look ok but she will be here tomorrow almost certainly. I'm not sure what i would do if i could not let off steam in this forum. I cannot really talk to DH about it [well not for long anyhow - he just doesn't get it] and i don't really want to talk to my friends about it as its repetitive and the only girl i work with is pregnant and she has long lost interest in the TTC conversations.

i have done some housework and opened the tin of quality street i meant to give to my son's nursery staff. Having eaten all the solid green and orange ones I'm wondering if i can still get away with giving it to them.

Your book sounds good...I have a few at home. I have a book listing all herbs and what they do - must dig it out although have no clue what i have been prescribed. Have acu on sat at 7pm and might start getting them to write down what they give me - is that what you have done in the past?


----------



## Briss

I have asked for a list of herbs in the mix on my first visit and because it has not changed much I have not asked for it again. have to say that the herbs in my mix do not match anything in my book&#8230; also apparently nettles are for a different type of deficiency so I need to find some other herb to drink 

I stopped with the juices, no idea why probably just too cold. trying to force myself to do yoga but this is bloody so hard! My body is incapable of staying in these positions for more than a few seconds 

I cant really talk to Dh about this stuff cos it upsets him and he takes it personally. I am just happy he agreed to take supplements, it took about 8 months to get him to do it voluntarily. he still complains every time but at least he takes them


----------



## Blythe

juicing is really difficult in this dark cold weather. My regime is most certainly out of the window, for now at least. Its good that you are trying out the yoga - I always found it very difficult too but it does get easier so try to stick with it. I intend to do some exercise over the festive period as i have just been working and just vegging at the weekend through sheer exhaustion. I really want to get active and healthy again as it will give me a much more optimistic outlook which is just what i need to start the new year.

Brill that your DH takes his supplements - i read so many posts about women who struggle to get their partners to at least try to take daily supplements. Mine downs his although likes to moan that it upsets his stomach - although oddly overeating and booze does not!!


----------



## vkj73

Blythe said:


> just had momentary breakdown...I just could not face work today and called in sick. Lack of sleep and just the last few months of heartbreak seems to have taken its toll. Im actually feeling ok now and maybe just needed to have a good cry.
> 
> LTTTC is a pile of crap!!

sometimes a day off is just the right thing.

hope you're feeling better.

:hugs:


----------



## Blythe

Today is CD1 and i do feel better.....its just just those horrid few days before AF arrives and you just want her to arrive so you can get focused on the next cycle. Only two days left of work before a couple of weeks off! Can hardly wait. X


----------



## Briss

so sorry AF got you&#8230; well at least you can have a well deserved drink over Christmas. 2 week holiday sounds so good! Also I think you have better chances of conceiving while on holiday so here is hoping for 2013 BFP. I only get 3 days off next week and back at the office on Thursday, It looks like I may also have to work from my bbry over Christmas, quite annoying


----------



## Blythe

hello ladies


----------



## Briss

I bought softcups a few months ago hoping to use them after BD but decided not to, I just looked at how huge and hard it is and got scared :) I am afraid I will do more harm than good with it. I figured I lye with my legs up the wall for 30 min after BD anyway and the sperm is unlikely to survive more than that in the acidity of vagina.

is moon cup the same as softcup?


----------



## Briss

I am getting really confused, have been researching the list of herbs in my mix and apparently one of them is Herba Epidemii which is horny goat weed! now why would I need to take that? it's said to increase testosterone level in men and improve their sexual function. why would I need to increase my t levels it's like the opposite for TTC, women which high T levels cant get pregnant. am so confused.


----------



## Blythe

Hi briss....perhaps the dose is just enough to increase sex drive but not inhibit pregnancy...i would certainly raise your concerns though. I have just come back from session 2 with new doc and as im on day 3 of cycle and bleeding he avoided placing any needles in tummy....that did not deter my previous doc from doing it though....hey ho!


----------



## Blythe

Briss said:


> I am getting really confused, have been researching the list of herbs in my mix and apparently one of them is Herba Epidemii which is horny goat weed! now why would I need to take that? it's said to increase testosterone level in men and improve their sexual function. why would I need to increase my t levels it's like the opposite for TTC, women which high T levels cant get pregnant. am so confused.

Just seen this.....

https://naturalhornygoatweed.com/horny-goat-weed-hollywoods-pregnancy-supplement/


----------



## Briss

Blythe said:


> Briss said:
> 
> 
> I am getting really confused, have been researching the list of herbs in my mix and apparently one of them is Herba Epidemii which is horny goat weed! now why would I need to take that? it's said to increase testosterone level in men and improve their sexual function. why would I need to increase my t levels it's like the opposite for TTC, women which high T levels cant get pregnant. am so confused.
> 
> Just seen this.....
> 
> https://naturalhornygoatweed.com/horny-goat-weed-hollywoods-pregnancy-supplement/Click to expand...

that's really interesting! thank you! I am beginning to think that these herbs are so complex and particularly they seem to change their qualities when combined with certain other herbs that it's really impossible to understand I guess i just have to trust my acu doc


----------



## Briss

Blythe said:


> Hi briss....perhaps the dose is just enough to increase sex drive but not inhibit pregnancy...i would certainly raise your concerns though. I have just come back from session 2 with new doc and as im on day 3 of cycle and bleeding he avoided placing any needles in tummy....that did not deter my previous doc from doing it though....hey ho!

my doc always gives me needles in my tummy regardless of where I am in my cycle. actually my ovaries feel sore when I think about these needles in my ovaries tomorrow :)


----------



## MalaMae

Blythe said:


> Hi briss....perhaps the dose is just enough to increase sex drive but not inhibit pregnancy...i would certainly raise your concerns though. I have just come back from session 2 with new doc and as im on day 3 of cycle and bleeding he avoided placing any needles in tummy....that did not deter my previous doc from doing it though....hey ho!

I'm waiting on AF to arrive and he didn't put any needles in the tummy this cycle. I wonder why?


----------



## Blythe

MalaMae said:


> Blythe said:
> 
> 
> Hi briss....perhaps the dose is just enough to increase sex drive but not inhibit pregnancy...i would certainly raise your concerns though. I have just come back from session 2 with new doc and as im on day 3 of cycle and bleeding he avoided placing any needles in tummy....that did not deter my previous doc from doing it though....hey ho!
> 
> I'm waiting on AF to arrive and he didn't put any needles in the tummy this cycle. I wonder why?Click to expand...

Hi mala have you tested yet? Your cycle is longer this month and your temps higher...it looks like a massive improvement to me and possibly something else!


----------



## Briss

mala, I totally agree with Blythe, did your acu doc check your pulse? They can know if you are pregnant by the pulse (long before it will show in your urine) so may be he there were some signs and he did not want to risk it? fingers crossed :)

I am so surprised how steady my pre O temp is so far. They are usually very erratic and only come down just before O. I think it's probably due to acu and herbs. Am getting really angry with my DH, it's my second HIGH today so I will be ovulating in 3-4 days and we have not even BD once. we still need to get his old sperm out (it's been 3 weeks since we BD last...) and then wait for 1-2 days before we can properly BD and he is just not interested


----------



## Blythe

Yeah nice steady temps there briss.

Its frustrating that dh is not enthusiastic about dtd yet! We only dtd around ovulation time every month so i do wonder how good the sperm are that have been saved up for a while!


----------



## MalaMae

No need to test, AF arrived :/ but it's good- 14 days LP.
I couldn't take the temp whole last week since I was away on a vacation which meant going to bed late, getting early for the beach so the temp would not be correct. But I did relax finally and haven't felt like that for more than 2 years.


----------



## MalaMae

Briss, I'm glad about your temp. First sign that acupuncture and herbs are working!

Forgot to tell you re: last session. As I told you he put needles in my legs and arms, but on the right leg I felt the needle poking more and he was very excited. Also he put one needle on the inside of the foot- between the arch and heel and then I felt like shooting short electric shock through the foot. Apparently that was great.
I can tell you that since the first session, I feel the needles more and more meaning blood is circulating more. Yay!


----------



## Blythe

MalaMae said:


> No need to test, AF arrived :/ but it's good- 14 days LP.
> I couldn't take the temp whole last week since I was away on a vacation which meant going to bed late, getting early for the beach so the temp would not be correct. But I did relax finally and haven't felt like that for more than 2 years.

:hugs:For AF but your cycle now looks really healthy and just right to help you concieve which is great news! Your break sounds good....im struggling to remember what a beach looks like....its a cold wet london at the mo but its christmas so i dont mind so much.


----------



## Briss

Mala, sorry about AF but great that you managed to have a holiday, it's so important to relax and let it all go once in a while. We have not had proper holiday in years... it's so nice you can discuss your progress and reaction to needles with your doc, really encouraging. unfortunately my doc's English does not really let us have any sensible conversation. I usually feel when the needles go in but once they are in I cant feel them apart from the ones in my ovaries and tummy (these hurt quite bad). 

Had my 8th session, was very relaxing I almost fell asleep during cupping. got so many needles in my face, supposed to give me a beautiful face :) I guess my doc means it should help with acne. 

Approaching ovulation but still no BD, feel very frustrated and losing hope for this cycle, even if I manage to get my DH to BD his sperm will likely to be of poor quality and count after 3 weeks


----------



## MalaMae

Thanks girls. Actually for the first time I wasn't upset that I got the AF.
Oh, my doctor has broken English as well, not much of talking. He just gives me thumbs up and says "good" with a big smile. Once the neddles are in, I can't feel them as well, I just feel the poking. I can't really discuss the progress, he only said it's better, temps higher and steady and better pulse. He doesn't talk much :)


----------



## Hope3

Blythe said:


> Hi hope
> 
> Do you have it in pill form or powder? I only ask as i received my herbal powder sachets today and it seems there is only about a teaspoon worth in each bag (2 x day) which i think is quite mean! My last place gave my at least three times that amount although i suspect some of that was filler to make it taste better as it tasted ok (which is rare i think?!?)


Hi Blythe, sorry for my late reply.

I got a 100g container of herbal powder and a tiny little dosing spoon. I'm supposed to take it 3x per day. It turns out that I wasn't taking enough to begin with (I should have taken 2 spoonfuls each dose instead of one). However, when I started taking the recommended dose it really upset my digestion and without getting into too much detail, things just weren't right if you catch my drift, so I stopped taking it. My acupuncturist has persuaded me to go back on it but to reduce the dose.


----------



## Blythe

Hope3 said:


> Blythe said:
> 
> 
> Hi hope
> 
> Do you have it in pill form or powder? I only ask as i received my herbal powder sachets today and it seems there is only about a teaspoon worth in each bag (2 x day) which i think is quite mean! My last place gave my at least three times that amount although i suspect some of that was filler to make it taste better as it tasted ok (which is rare i think?!?)
> 
> 
> Hi Blythe, sorry for my late reply.
> 
> I got a 100g container of herbal powder and a tiny little dosing spoon. I'm supposed to take it 3x per day. It turns out that I wasn't taking enough to begin with (I should have taken 2 spoonfuls each dose instead of one). However, when I started taking the recommended dose it really upset my digestion and without getting into too much detail, things just weren't right if you catch my drift, so I stopped taking it. My acupuncturist has persuaded me to go back on it but to reduce the dose.Click to expand...

Cheers hope. I catch your drift on that one. Im still convinced my dose is a bit low but will see if it has any effect over the next few weeks. I had a couple of days off the herbs as with the xmas booze and excess food there seemed little point! Trying to be healthy now but still too much cheese and pate in house!

Im sure your body will get used to the herbs...my body reacted to coq10 when i first started taking it but nothing out of ordinary nowadays despite doubling dose.


----------



## Hope3

It's been about 5 weeks now since I first started the acupuncture. He seemed pleased when I told him that my last period wasn't as painful as it normally is, so I guess there is some progress.

I can't wait until my herbs have finished. I can't stand them!


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## Blythe

The herbs i have dont taste that bad...i mainly have the sensation of heat when taking them...i think its ginger. Im going for acu later this afternoon and will get more herbs although i think they will be the same. My doc said he would spend the first month getting my temps sorted then focus on improving my chances of conception.


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## Briss

Blythe, good luck with BD!

I finally got a proper temp raise this morning but FF put my O on CD10, I think I O much later. anyway am in TWW now so going to start with pineapples again, not because I think they work but because I like them :) am due for the next acu session tomorrow, not sure if i want to extend my herbs though


----------



## Blythe

Hi briss

Im just reading through randine lewis's book on tcm and i am kidney yang deficient and spleen qi deficient with some blood deficiency and it says to stimulate acu points ki 7 and ren 4 (not the points used by my acu man) I have a book called chopsticks acupuncture and so im going to start stimulating these two points with a chopstick maybe once a day!

I will have pineapple this cycle too. I saw your chart and could be later ovulation. I have had peak days on cbfm and ovulated 3 days after first peak.


----------



## Briss

I love randine lewis's book! I definitely have spleen qi deficiency and also liver qi stagnation. I am still trying to work out what my acu points and herbs mean. some of the herbs in my mix are definitely for spleen qi deficiency, others for heat and kidney deficiency which I do not think I have. 

I feel so worried about the needle in my uterus tomorrow. I know that 2-3 DPO is too early for implantation and in any event with low sperm count our chances are really slim and yet I still worry that this needle might be doing something wrong. 

Also I thought I was getting rid of my chocolate craving but it was just wishful thinking I simply cant live without chocolate, not for long anyway. 

Acu doc keeps asking me if I get wormer which I do but my hands and feet (and nose) are still very cold most of the time. Even now I am soaking my feet in hot water as I type :) 

I got for my hubby tonnes of chinese herbs for sperm count but he is refusing to take them. Cost me a fortune! so ungrateful


----------



## Briss

Blythe said:


> Hi briss
> 
> Im just reading through randine lewis's book on tcm and i am kidney yang deficient and spleen qi deficient with some blood deficiency and it says to stimulate acu points ki 7 and ren 4 (not the points used by my acu man)
> .

actually it's ren 4 point I am worried about! looking at the picture on page 125 of the book, I get Ren 4, Ren 6, both Zingongs (these Zingongs really hurt!) and electrics usually goes through all four points. 

I never get anything on my back, except for cupping and massage


----------



## Blythe

I used to get those zigongs done with my last practioner and they went deep...im sure they pierced my ovaries and they hurt alot! I have not had them done yet with new guy but he did do ren 4 today once he had confirmed i was no longer having my period. He did 17 needles today with 7 in my head which is more than usual. He always does stomach 36 and a spleen one on the inside of the leg. I always get a needle in fleshy bit between thumb and forefinger....i think its on the heart meridian.

I would chat through your concerns about direct stimulation of ovaries and uterus in lutuel phase though......i would be interested to know what feedback you get. I will be in lutuel phase when i go back next sat so will make a mental note of points and let you know. I was encouraged by the fact he was interested to see my charts again as they know i was ripped off before ( or at least felt i was) so i feel he is doing his best. He massaged my lower back at end of treatment (not before i flashed my arse which i was momentarily motified by!....my knickers had disappeared up my bum) as i have been having lower back pains and now it feels great.


----------



## Blythe

This looks interesting although i have not read it properly yet....

https://www.natural-health-for-fertility.com/acupressure-for-fertility.html


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## Briss

I do hope zigongs do not pierced my ovaries, cos I have a cyst on my right ovary and the last thing I want is piercing... got myself worried now I did not realise needles can touch internal organs.

I get ren 4 every time regardless of where I am in my cycle so even during period. did your doc say why you cant have ren 4 during your period? 

I also always get st 36, sp 10 and lv 3. Last time for the first time I got Epang II on both sides.


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## Blythe

Sorry i did not want to worry you...it really felt that my ovaries were being pierced but maybe it was just how it felt rather than it actually happening. I do know the needles went down at least 1 1/2 inches as i looked at it and it was just the top i could see. 

We are due to get SA results soon and im hoping they come bAck ok (dh did do it before but they forgot to do the tests on the same day and the sperm died). Dh has been on sups for a few months now so fingers crossed his sperm are in ok condition. I wonder how long it takes for the sups to improve sperm health/mobility.


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## Briss

I also feel like like my ovaries were being pierced but I thought it was just a feeling not an actual thing...

I also get Ren 17 point (between my breasts) every time, no idea why i get it it seems nothing to do with conception


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## Blythe

https://www.acupuncture.com.au/education/meridians/ren-meridian.html

This site shows all ren points...you can click on each one for more info


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## Briss

I asked my acu doc about these points after O but she said they stimulate these points before and after O, even after egg transfer during IVF. She also said that they do not penetrate internal organs and only go muscle deep (huge relief!). so I got all the usual points today REN 4, 6 and 17, both zigongs (the right one was so painful!, st36, sp10, sp6, du20. I mentioned to my doc that the right zigong was very painful but she said it was good it was supposed to be sensitive means it's working


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## Blythe

Thats good to know....i always get a jolt when they insert needle into st36 so hopefully its doing something positive. Have you got some more herbs?

I have dropped the maca powder last couple of weeks...too many things to take so something had to go...


----------



## Briss

I still have one more week of herbs, not sure yet whether I buy another 6 weeks of herbs after that, it's 210 pounds... and also we will probably start IVF by then. Although I do not want to do stimulated cycle so may be taking herbs will be ok. I heard that herbs may interfere with stimulating meds. 

st36 is really sensitive I always feel it but zigong was plainly painful. I also notice I cant breath properly whole time I am with needles cos if I take a deep breath my belly moves and needles with it making it almost unbearable. 

I do not take maca but give it to my DH, in caps and also try to mix some maca powder in everything he eats :) I started taking arginine after O, Lewis recommends it


----------



## vkj73

:witch:got me a couple of days ago.

i'm going to take a break from acupuncture this round.

i did just buy some vitex though, and will try more of the
herbal tea this round too.

i also think i'm going to allow myself decaf coffee (with a sprinkle of caffeine here and there) and some drinks here and there too. moderation of course.

i've been so disciplined with no alcohol, no decaf or regular coffee, and only drinking chinese herbs that i'm going to just take a break from all that. very frustrating to be so focused and not get a :bfp:

live a little, relax, but again in moderation. 
that's my formula for this cycle anyway.:shrug:


----------



## Blythe

Briss said:


> I still have one more week of herbs, not sure yet whether I buy another 6 weeks of herbs after that, it's 210 pounds... and also we will probably start IVF by then. Although I do not want to do stimulated cycle so may be taking herbs will be ok. I heard that herbs may interfere with stimulating meds.
> 
> st36 is really sensitive I always feel it but zigong was plainly painful. I also notice I cant breath properly whole time I am with needles cos if I take a deep breath my belly moves and needles with it making it almost unbearable.
> 
> I do not take maca but give it to my DH, in caps and also try to mix some maca powder in everything he eats :) I started taking arginine after O, Lewis recommends it

Ive benn taking l-arginine but throughout cycle so will perhaps only take it after ovulation from now on. Have you booked appt for ivf consultation if you dont mind my asking. I wonder how quick it is from first appt to starting the treatment...do you know? Ive read different things anout herbs and meds....some clinics dont seem to mind.


----------



## Blythe

vkj73 said:


> :witch:got me a couple of days ago.
> 
> i'm going to take a break from acupuncture this round.
> 
> i did just buy some vitex though, and will try more of the
> herbal tea this round too.
> 
> i also think i'm going to allow myself decaf coffee (with a sprinkle of caffeine here and there) and some drinks here and there too. moderation of course.
> 
> i've been so disciplined with no alcohol, no decaf or regular coffee, and only drinking chinese herbs that i'm going to just take a break from all that. very frustrating to be so focused and not get a :bfp:
> 
> live a little, relax, but again in moderation.
> that's my formula for this cycle anyway.:shrug:

Hi vkj sorry about AF....its bloody hard to be so focused with no BFP at the end...its exhausting! Ive been drinking and having caffiene here and there....i dont think it does any harm at all. Being too stressed and too focused on one thing does more harm (imo). I feel very relaxed this cycle as im off work for the xmas break and just relaxing at home (booze has also helped with that). I felt like a tightly wound coil before so its a huge relief to just stop and do nothing. 

Fingers crossed for a new year bfp. Are you going to temp this month?


----------



## Briss

VKJ, so sorry AF got you! :( re coffee etc I can totally relate, after several months on almost no coffee I could not stop myself any longer and had my favourite almost every day during the festive season&#8230; same with chocolate. I just do not know how to keep on going and keeping myself away from my favourite things for months and months with no BFP in sight

Blythe, I am not entirely sure when you are supposed to take arginine, I will be taking it after O to increase progesterone (I read somewhere that it can help). I have not booked appt for ivf, I still need to persuade my DH that we have to do this. If we are paying ourselves I am sure they can start from the next cycle following the appointment. Also I am thinking of natural IVF so it should be pretty straightforward. The most difficult thing is getting DH on board

I am so sad today, the last day of 2012, same time last year I was so sure I will be with child by now&#8230; Lucky 2013!!!


----------



## Blythe

Its a hard and sometimes long journey.....i remember getting excited with a good friend of mine about ttc and now her son is 7 months and my friend at work is due for second scan.....whilst im stilll messing around with thermometers and opks!! I too get sad and days like this dont help. I aim to bring in the new year with some optimism that 2013 will be the year i get pregnant.....

I will have to drag DH away from computer soon for BDing....


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## Briss

Happy BD!!! to conceive a child on new year's eve is very romantic :) best of luck!


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## vkj73

thanks blythe and briss.
i totally agree. in some ways i think being so focused and so disciplined 
is almost more stressful. not for all, but for me, i think i need to let loose a little.

happy new year to you all. many believe that 13 is actually a lucky number, 
so here's to 2013!

:hugs:


----------



## MalaMae

Happy New Year, girls!!! May soon this thread moves to pregnancy forum :))


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## Blythe

Happy new year girls! Lets hope its our year....


----------



## Blythe

Acu and herbs does not seem to have had too much effect on my temps so far - the doc was keen to raise my temps but my hands and feet have not been noticeably cold so i guess that is an improvement. I think i ovulated on CD13 - i have a positive OPK in the evening together with very strong ovulation pains. Did not BD that day as both had hangovers!!

i have been taking my temps much later this cycle as I'm off work at the mo but have been using that link you sent me Briss which allows me to calculate approx temp if taken later (v.useful - many thanks again).

Been a bit irregular with taking herbs too as the doc said they should be taken on an empty stomach and allow at least an hour before having any other food/drink so with xmas festivities it made it difficult. But back on track from today and determined to have a healthy'ish start to the new year.


----------



## Briss

Blythe, it does look like you O on Cd13, welcome to TWW! are you going to be doing pineapples? My acu doc did not tell me that I was supposed to be taking herbs on an empty stomach. I do not think I ever do&#8230;

I've already had 9 or 10 sessions but I have to say I cant really see any major changes. I am less cold which is great but my hands and feet are still icy cold most of the time. I thought I stopped craving chocolate but no, not really still do. My spotting before and after AF is also still there. clots are still there. I O very early but after I started acu I seem to be O even earlier than usual (CD10-11 rather than CD12). I am hoping the positive changes are still there i.e. quality of eggs is better, more blood goes to my reproductive organs etc., cant really check those, can you

Cant decide whether I should do for acu this Sunday or skip one week. I know she is going to do REN points on my tummy and even though I doubt I am pregnant there is still a chance and though she said it's OK I still worry&#8230;


----------



## Blythe

Instead of skipping a week perhaps tell her you don't want needles in tummy in 2ww. I do remember that my previous practitioner would not use the tummy points post ovulation. I will be interested to see what happens on sat as i will make it clear I'm post ovulation and see where he puts the needles and report back.

I'm praying i see some positive results from this set of treatments as i was so disillusioned last time but i do believe in chinese medicine and hope i have found a doc who will try his best for me. i think about the cash i have handed over on supplements, treatments etc and I'm sure i have spent enough to pay for a natural round of IVF!! 

Still back to being positive.....sainsburys was out of pineapples....bugger!! I will go again tomorrow and have a big slice everyday although i do have pineapple juice but i know its not the same. I will also start with my prog cream tomorrow as it was great to have a spotting free 2ww last cycle.

I have no doubt that our treatments are doing some good stuff on the inside - as im off work i have been googling like a nutter and found some inspiring stories of ladies becoming pregnant following a few months of chinese medicine treatment.


----------



## Briss

I would also be interested what your doc gonna do post O. I feel so awkward to ask her that after she assured me that it's perfectly safe. It's like I am questioning her expertise. I'd much rather be a coward and do not turn up :)


----------



## Blythe

Today is not a good day. I got my crossed lines and really there is no great discernible difference between pre and post ovulation temps and overall my temps are now even lower.

I feel so upset because when i went into the place I'm going to now i told them about my experience before and they said they were different...Im going to give them a piece of my mind tomorrow because temp wise this is my worst cycle yet and ive given them almost £300 to do that!!! 

sorry for rant


----------



## Briss

I agree your post O temp was higher last cycle. may be you are still gearing up to O? 

I do not agree where FF put my O, I am so sure I O 1-2 days later.


----------



## Blythe

I think you may have o 1/2 days later as previous months you have the dip and then ovulation 1/2 days later.


----------



## Briss

On the other hand it's so unlikely I can get pregnant this cycle (I even had a cry on 2-3 DPO cos this became so apparent to me all of a sudden) so may as well proceed with acu to get myself into shape for IVF&#8230; cant believe how indecisive I am. My doc actually said the best way is to have acu every day including tummy area&#8230;.I was going to start doing acu pressure myself at home and to my DH but by the time I get home from work I feel so tired that I can never find any energy for this. I am sure it's not hard just need to find a way to incorporate it into my routine like with juices. it takes ages to peel them all and then after clean the juicer but I do it almost everyday now as a matter of course. Unfortunately I do not lose any weight cos I do juices on top of my meals not as a replacement&#8230;

Blythe, I so agree with you re my temps cant understand why FF is being so unreasonable. cant wait for your acu session tomorrow, I am really curious how your doc going to explain your post O temps and also whether he is going to needle tummy points. Did he actually tell you what sort of deficiency you have in his view? my doc never explained this to me. I am just trying to understand this based on what my herbs are supposed to be doing. My previous doc did a lot to release my heat and she gave me lots of ginseng (all herbs were ginseng based). this one did not give me any ginseng.


----------



## Blythe

Oh no im sorry you were upset....i have mini break downs every now and then inc. yesterdAy. Not only has acu and herbs had negative effect on temps but i can no longer sleep and i feel angry all the time. Ive just printed out my charts ready for session this afternoon and tongue lashing im going to give them!

I have just treated myself to fertility friend membership for 90 days as have need to stalk charts!

I have not juiced since before xmas but have apples and carrots next to juicer. I will get back into my little routine once i return to work on weds. You are right that these things just need to become part of your daily routine then within a few days you do them without to much thought/inconvenience.


----------



## Briss

Blythe, your temp is moving up, hopefully it will get sorted soon. I wonder if your doc got your symptoms right

my acne is not getting any better despite having acu needles in my face and getting back on vitamins.

I also do smoothies as well as juices, my favorite at the moment: blueberries, banana, spinach and water - so delicious! you cant taste greens at all

I did not get fertility friend membership, I had 30 days free when I joined and found myself stalking charts all day long and raising my hopes up for nothing so decided against paying for it. I usually get 5 days free every few months so save up all my charts during this window.

Just wanted to share a very useful website on chinese herbs, https://www.radiantwonder.com/productlist.asp they sell ready made mixes but under "ingredients" they provide a very good explanation for each herb. I found a lot of my herbs there


----------



## Blythe

Ive just brought some spinach and will get the blueberries and banana tomorrow as that smoothie sounds good! 

I had my treatment and talked the doc and his assistant whose english is excellent through my issues re temps and lack of sleep and foul mood and fear of being ripped off......they were quite flustered at one point going through my charts. Another doc, a female came in and said she got pregnant despite low temps and said not to stress too much about it and that my obsessing was not helping (really bothers me when people state the obvious.....what i needed them to say was dont worry we will defo get you pregnant!). Anyhow, they assured me that they would do their best for me and that it was not an instant solution. I had my treatment and he said the only time he would not insert needles into tummy was during period as the increase in blood flow may extend period.

He said by my pulse my kidney yang was not as deficent as it had been.

Im glad i said something as i have always been that girl who says nothing when the hairdresser has hacked her hair off....


----------



## Briss

Blythe, well done you! so did you get your tummy needles today? when I was going through FF pregnancy charts I also noticed that quite a few charts had lower temps 

i replaced blueberries with pineapple today, it's tasty but not as good.


----------



## Blythe

Cheers :flower: 

He needled ren 6&4 but nowhere else on tummy. He has never done the zigongs which is a relief as they hurt.....

Are you going tomorrow or do you think you will take a week out from it?


----------



## Briss

i decided to go tomorrow. I hope i am doing the right thing...

my right zigong was really hurting last week but after that my right ovary (the one I probably ovulated from) got so much better, it was really sensitive after O and I almost did not feel it after acu


----------



## Briss

Just got back from my acu session, it was very good although all needles were quite painful when they got in but I did not feel them during the session even zigong were ok! so i could totally relax.

I extended my herbs for another 6 weeks at a discount. My acne got worse and she added two new herbs for this. She said it's caused by excess heat which is so strange cos I am always cold but apparently, I have both too much heat and cold... no idea how I can have both and why my excess heat is not being used by my body to get rid of excess cold?


----------



## Blythe

Briss said:


> Just got back from my acu session, it was very good although all needles were quite painful when they got in but I did not feel them during the session even zigong were ok! so i could totally relax.
> 
> I extended my herbs for another 6 weeks at a discount. My acne got worse and she added two new herbs for this. She said it's caused by excess heat which is so strange cos I am always cold but apparently, I have both too much heat and cold... no idea how I can have both and why my excess heat is not being used by my body to get rid of excess cold?

The session sounds good.....i dont like it when the needles go in not because they hurt, because they rarely do, but occasionally they hit a nerve (or meridian i suppose) and i get shooting pains up and down my leg which make me wince. Its good that you were able to relax though.

Hopefully the new herbs will help with the acne....strange about having both heat and cold...maybe you have heat in some meridians/organs and cold/deficiency in others....but like you i thought one would have balanced out the other.

I have a temp rise today so will see how that goes. I too have new herbs which he said would help with my mood/energy levels....i wonder how long they will take to kick in.

Im thinking il give the herbs/treatments 6 months...although i will have to reduce cost somehow by either cutting back on regularity of treatments or reducing herbal treatment but will see what they can offer me if i do become a longer term customer. Will review this in about 6 weeks though.


----------



## Briss

oh, that's quite unpleasant to be getting shooting pains up and down your leg! did you tell your doc about that? is it a good sign? face needles are the most painful, they always hurt but I so hope they will help with acne together with new herbs. my previous Chinese doc did a very painful procedure she called it scrubbing it's like a skin massage but extremely painful. it's like she was squeezing something out of my skin. someone explained later this is to get rid of excess heat. Now when I think of it, my acne got much better after that but I attributed it to vitamins may be it was due this procedure and maybe this doc did not rob me off (as I thought). 

your temp is still very confusing, but considering that you are taking progesterone I would think it should be way up there. it's still quite clear that you ovulated so I would not worry about temp. I find temp so misleading most of the time, e.g. mine tends to go up during the second half of TWW and I always get my hopes up&#8230; also my doc seems to have lost interest in my charts, she is only concerned with my period, not the temp. So I am thinking I will stop temping next week, not altogether but I will temp mid cycle just to confirm my O date. Last few days before AF arrives I am getting so obsessed with temp, feeling happy and hopeful when it goes up and totally crushed when it goes down. I should not do it to myself so not temping during this period may help to relax and concentrate on something else.

Did you ask for a list of your herbs? I still did not get through my list properly and compare it to Lewis' recommendations.


----------



## Blythe

Briss said:


> oh, that's quite unpleasant to be getting shooting pains up and down your leg! did you tell your doc about that? is it a good sign? face needles are the most painful, they always hurt but I so hope they will help with acne together with new herbs. my previous Chinese doc did a very painful procedure she called it scrubbing it's like a skin massage but extremely painful. it's like she was squeezing something out of my skin. someone explained later this is to get rid of excess heat. Now when I think of it, my acne got much better after that but I attributed it to vitamins may be it was due this procedure and maybe this doc did not rob me off (as I thought).
> 
> your temp is still very confusing, but considering that you are taking progesterone I would think it should be way up there. it's still quite clear that you ovulated so I would not worry about temp. I find temp so misleading most of the time, e.g. mine tends to go up during the second half of TWW and I always get my hopes up also my doc seems to have lost interest in my charts, she is only concerned with my period, not the temp. So I am thinking I will stop temping next week, not altogether but I will temp mid cycle just to confirm my O date. Last few days before AF arrives I am getting so obsessed with temp, feeling happy and hopeful when it goes up and totally crushed when it goes down. I should not do it to myself so not temping during this period may help to relax and concentrate on something else.
> 
> Did you ask for a list of your herbs? I still did not get through my list properly and compare it to Lewis' recommendations.

The skin rubbing thing is called Gua Sha [there are other spellings] - I've never had it done but have wondered whether it was painful or not.

its so easy to become consumed by the temps...it does help break down the month but when i had my last mini break down with these low temps i thought what on earth am i doing to myself...Im now ok with my temps this month as my sleep is completely out and im waking up much later than usual [still adjusting temps though] but my usual routine will be back in play from weds when i return to work so will see what that does to temps. Im totally exhausted today as stayed up to watch The Iron Lady then was messing around with sewing stuff and just haven't slept properly for days.

Your temps look nice and steady and a nice increase too so that is positive.

I have no idea what herbs i am taking...I have not asked yet but may be tempted to do so in a week or two.

I was looking at acu-pens on amazon/ebay for a way to stimulate my points in between acu appts....still undecided on these though. Have you seen these before?


----------



## Briss

The skin rubbing thing was very painful but mainly because I had issues (I think). and once she found a peace of me that was particularly painful she just pressed on to my horror&#8230; and I ended up with really bad bruises on my tummy. I understand that if everything is fine with you it's not supposed to be painful. 

you know FF actually does not recommend adjusting temps because I think it does not work for everyone. maybe that's your case I mean if your temps are more or less the same regardless of when you wake up then adjusting just wont work. I think unless you wake up at the same time every day, you should not really rely on your temps too much. you will of course see the pattern before and after O but just about

I did not have time to watch The Iron Lady last night but hopefully I managed to record it and can see it tonight &#61514; was it good?

I find herbs very complex, I have been researching them for weeks (on and off) and still not even close to understanding how they work and balance each other. I found a few in my mix that work well together to deal with spleen qi deficiency.

I have not seen acu-pens but I can probably just start with my fingers and once I can get myself to do it regularly I may consider investing in acu-pens


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## Blythe

Briss said:


> The skin rubbing thing was very painful but mainly because I had issues (I think). and once she found a peace of me that was particularly painful she just pressed on to my horror and I ended up with really bad bruises on my tummy. I understand that if everything is fine with you it's not supposed to be painful.
> 
> you know FF actually does not recommend adjusting temps because I think it does not work for everyone. maybe that's your case I mean if your temps are more or less the same regardless of when you wake up then adjusting just wont work. I think unless you wake up at the same time every day, you should not really rely on your temps too much. you will of course see the pattern before and after O but just about
> 
> I did not have time to watch The Iron Lady last night but hopefully I managed to record it and can see it tonight &#61514; was it good?
> 
> I find herbs very complex, I have been researching them for weeks (on and off) and still not even close to understanding how they work and balance each other. I found a few in my mix that work well together to deal with spleen qi deficiency.
> 
> I have not seen acu-pens but I can probably just start with my fingers and once I can get myself to do it regularly I may consider investing in acu-pens


Meryl Streep was mesmerising and even if the film had been pants i would have kept watching it for her portrayal of mad maggie alone. The film really centres on her now with various flash backs with Jim Broadbent as Dennis and very funny he is too. I was very moved by it [although i am very moved by most things nowadays. I watched 'One Born Every Minute...' and was sobbing!!]


I wouldn't fancy the skin rubbing on my tummy at all. I did like cupping and quite fancy a session of that soon or a good hard massage. My doc gives me a mini massage afterwards and he is really really gentle which i can hardly feel - if anything it ticklish - I want pressure!!! Thanks for info on FF and temps - il think il just ignore this month temp wise.


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## Briss

I love Meryl Streep! cant wait to watch it. I loved 'One Born Every Minute when I started TTC but after a while I realised that it's becoming difficult for me to watch because I may never get to experience that. also I started having these dreams like I am giving birth and then holding my child and I am so happy but then I wake up to a bfn or AF&#8230; so I am trying to stay away from all pregnancy relating TV for the time being

I also get a mini massage on my back every time after cupping, luckily it's quite hard. I guess I got bruising on my tummy after the skin rubbing cos the skin is more sensitive. but the most painful bits were feet and legs (legs were bruised as well after that but not as much). I literally had tears running down my cheeks while I was trying not to scream from pain. I love reflexology which can be quite painful but it's nothing compared to this skin rubbing. I had no idea I had places on my toes that could give me such pain. but who knows maybe it did give me a good cleaning and my skin got better because of that. I am not doing it again any time soon though


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## Blythe

briss - hows it going? are you 14 dpo today? any sign of AF?


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## Briss

I loved the Iron lady! both Meryl Streep and Jim Broadbent were wonderful! although the movie was so sad, I was sobbing through most of it 

Had a bit of a argument with hubby this morning, he was going to do a sperm test today but changed his mind, I was so upset with him! it was probably particularly hurting cos my temp went down so AF should be here any day now (hopefully it will wait until at least Friday, cant stand the short cycles!), yet another failed cycle and I still have no idea whether tonnes of vitamins that he has been taking last 6 months made any difference or if we are just wasting our time and money (all his supplements do not come cheap!). I am so hoping that his sperm count improved so we could at least start with IUI rather than IVF.

I am 13 DPO according to FF, I usually have 14 day LP but I am hoping FF got my O day wrong so I may have extra couple of days before AF arrives. I urgently need to plan a strategy for the next cycle to divert my frustration&#8230;

Blythe, your temp looks much better btw


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## Blythe

Yeah what a great film...very teary. 

I have just been on phone to check if DH SA results are back and they are so i have made an appt. Often i feel like his mother...if i did not do these things they would not get done at all. I was shopping round for his supps earlier in the week as i could see he was running low [he didn't tell me!] - this took time and more ££....I appreciate your frustration as really they dont have to do too much in comparison to us ladies...

You still have some days to go so it may still be your month....I have seen tonnes of charts of FF where there are temp dips before a BFP.

i always have a fairly good idea at least 5 days before AF as my PMT symptoms are coming earlier and earlier these days or perhaps it just my obsession with it all. My DH says i am obsessed when he sees me examining stuff on the web...he is right of course!


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## Briss

I know I also hope up to the last moment when AF is definitely there but even then there is still hope. There was this lady on FF forum who did her last ever IVF attempt, she got bfn and then AF turned up, It was devastating to read through her posts, so she used tampon and went on to have a bath trying to relax and asses her life. when she got out she noticed that AF sort of slowed down and then it stopped and two days later she got her bfp! miracles happen so I hope and hope and hope but I guess deep down we kind of know even a few days before AF is due that it's all over.; here I am entering the most painful stage of the cycle last few days before AF when you feel she is approaching but still hope that she will get lost on her way&#8230;

Good luck with DH's SA. I hope it's good news!

re supps, not only I am supposed to buy all his supps and pay for them, I am also expected to approach him at the right time and in the right way (every day!!) so he actually takes them! He is also supposed to be taking Chinese herbs but it's a struggle, instead of taking them 2-3 times a day I can barely manage to get him to take them once a day and I also have to hear him complaining how I am poisoning him&#8230; I was so happy my DH heard yesterday on the news that the oldest men who died recently said that he was taking some Indian brown herbs that supposedly extended his life. I am using it as my argument now


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## Blythe

Briss said:


> I know I also hope up to the last moment when AF is definitely there but even then there is still hope. There was this lady on FF forum who did her last ever IVF attempt, she got bfn and then AF turned up, It was devastating to read through her posts, so she used tampon and went on to have a bath trying to relax and asses her life. when she got out she noticed that AF sort of slowed down and then it stopped and two days later she got her bfp! miracles happen so I hope and hope and hope but I guess deep down we kind of know even a few days before AF is due that it's all over.; here I am entering the most painful stage of the cycle last few days before AF when you feel she is approaching but still hope that she will get lost on her way
> 
> Good luck with DH's SA. I hope it's good news!
> 
> re supps, not only I am supposed to buy all his supps and pay for them, I am also expected to approach him at the right time and in the right way (every day!!) so he actually takes them! He is also supposed to be taking Chinese herbs but it's a struggle, instead of taking them 2-3 times a day I can barely manage to get him to take them once a day and I also have to hear him complaining how I am poisoning him I was so happy my DH heard yesterday on the news that the oldest men who died recently said that he was taking some Indian brown herbs that supposedly extended his life. I am using it as my argument now


i love stories like that....your post made me laugh [obviously not the final stage bit...:nope: its the pits and i know it only too well:growlmad:]

every now and then i do a bit of family tree stuff and have spent a couple of hours on it this afternoon [when i return to work tomorrow i just wont have time] and found my great great great nan who had a baby at 42 and my own nan had her last at 44. Having done this on and off for a while i do notice women having babies throughout their fertile life up to late 40s. Im always very heartened to see this...bet they were obsessing about coq10 and the like!!


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## Briss

it's encouraging to have relatives who had their children in their forties! you have the right genes :) I am sure our ancestors did not need coq10 and the like cos the environment was different. just look at the sperm count, it dropped to practically nothing some pitiful 15 million is now considered to be the norm. previously men were not exposed to so much oestrogen and I am sure had billions upon billion of their little guys


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## Briss

AF got me today :cry:, much earlier than expected so may be FF was right about my O date afterall. Does not look like acu and herbs are helping with extending my cycle, my O day seems to come earlier and earlier


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## Blythe

:hugs: Briss I am sorry that AF got you this month...I hope you are ok. The acu and herbs certainly seem to be shortening your cycle but your cycle still seems fine and healthy to me....i must have a nose later on FF for slightly shorter pregnancy cycles. 

i find that the first day is the worst then i try to focus on the new cycle/chance to conceive. I am having the familiar pangs of pain which signal to me that AF will appear...its strange i am getting them around 6 days before AF shows and it only ever used to happen a day or two before.

when is your DH going to go for his next SA? My DH gets his results on tues so fx they are ok or at least good enough to go for IUI if thats a course we decide upon.

:hugs: again for you...this really is hard to deal with sometimes.


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## Briss

Blythe, than you! I am very depressed, not only did AF show up but she also came early! I changed my previous chart to count spotting as CD1 cos I had to change pads as I recall and it seems to be considered as Cd1, well anyway I have two 24 day cycles in a row that's terrible. before such short cycles were an exception but since I had lap they are becoming a norm. this is so upsetting, the reason I went for lap is to improve my chances not to ruin them. DH is being disagreeable. I do not know what's it going to take to get him to do the test. I've already threatened him with a divorce not sure what else I can do. 

Af got me so unprepared in a way, I do not even have a plan for the next cycle. I guess I try to get myself to do yoga but to be honest I feel like this is going to be the last cycle I am trying naturally. it's been over 2 years I do not think I can take it any longer, we have to move to assisted conception however scary this might. am reading FF forum and there are so many threads about complications during IVF, this is just really off putting.


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## Blythe

Briss said:


> Blythe, than you! I am very depressed, not only did AF show up but she also came early! I changed my previous chart to count spotting as CD1 cos I had to change pads as I recall and it seems to be considered as Cd1, well anyway I have two 24 day cycles in a row that's terrible. before such short cycles were an exception but since I had lap they are becoming a norm. this is so upsetting, the reason I went for lap is to improve my chances not to ruin them. DH is being disagreeable. I do not know what's it going to take to get him to do the test. I've already threatened him with a divorce not sure what else I can do.
> 
> Af got me so unprepared in a way, I do not even have a plan for the next cycle. I guess I try to get myself to do yoga but to be honest I feel like this is going to be the last cycle I am trying naturally. it's been over 2 years I do not think I can take it any longer, we have to move to assisted conception however scary this might. am reading FF forum and there are so many threads about complications during IVF, this is just really off putting.


I wonder why the lap had an effect on your cycles...i do completely appreciate how frustrating and often devastating when we feel our cycles are out of whack. I was in pieces when i ovulated two days later than usual a few cycles back. I have to trust that the acu and herbs and the other supplements i am ramming down my throat everyday are slowly but surely taking me towards my goal. I was reading about women who had undertaken courses of acu and it had screwed their cycles [or so they thought] and then they got their BFP. Perhaps a shorter cycle works for your body and perhaps it will improve your chances of that BFP. 28 days is the average/norm but not always the optimum length of a cycle. i have just seen some pregnancy charts where the girls ovulated on days 8 and another on day 9.

im sure your options will become clearer once you have the next set of SA results [i do hope DH will do it soon]. The IVF drugs scare the crap out of me...i so wish i had the funds to try a few rounds of natural ivf...


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## Briss

I think it's hysteroscopy rather than lap, i do not really know after I had this operation I suddenly got 22 day cycle followed by 23 day cycle while my average is 26. and since the operation my cycles have been on the shorter side. I asked FS but she just said I am basically approaching menopause so operation had nothing with it it would have happened anyway. I do not believe this. 

Will not be taking EPO this cycle, cos it usually delays my O for 10-2 days but last cycle it did not work I wonder if it does not work well together with chinese herbs I am taking. Will ask my acu doc on sunday. 

just watched this new program baby makers on e-player it's about IVF very interesting but not reassuring.

am drowning my CD1 sorrow in M&S' eclairs :) to hell with smoothies for today


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## Blythe

i am encouraged by my temps and feel the acu and herbs are levelling them out which is a positive. I will probably sign up for another package of 5 weeks of herbs and 5 acu appts.

My DH is pi**ing me off today...he is really grumbling about the maca powder which i make him drink in the morning. He is grouching around holding his stomach saying it gives him really bad cramps. His face looks like he is in pain and he says he might have to stop taking it. What a woossss...honestly men have no idea what we go through!


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## Briss

Blythe, your temps look great! fingers crossed they will stay up :) 

My Dh would not take maca powder and I am so tired of this endless arguments over this, so I give him caps about 1000-1500 a day and I also sneak maca powder in his food and coffee whenever I can, there is no other way to get him to take it... sometimes he notices that food taste "funny" but I usually manage to persuade him that this is some new spices I am trying. He thinks he hates "cinnamon" in his coffee, if only he knew....


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## Blythe

Thats brilliant....made me laugh! Instead on getting angry i tried a different approach and asked him where it hurt (in fake symphathetic voice). Apparently pains near chest.....so we are essentially talking about a bit of reflux/indigestion! Honestly.....amyhow, i said we would try it with a different juice to see if he could stomach it then....if not then he will soon be getting some cinnamin in his coffee.

Just has acu and he put 4 needles in tummy...the most he has put there yet inc zigongs and they didnt hurt for a change. I have a lumpy bruise forming on forehead though from one of the needles.


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## Briss

I never had needles in my forehead, i wonder what's it for. I get one in my head and sometimes in my chin but that's for acne. 

did your doc check your pulse today? I have this dream that one day after O my doc is going to check my pulse and say that I am pregnant :) silly i know but one can dream


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## Blythe

I have that dream too.....he checked my pulse and then put needles between thumb and forefinger which is apparently contraindicated during preg.

I did a test last night as had really sore bbs....bfn and again this morning. Its the prog cream side effects. I will stop taking it today as dont want to delay AF. Ive just ordered some dhea...sod it!


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## Briss

you are only 12 DPO, wait a couple of days before testing.

where did you buy DHEA? I've been thinking of taking it for some time now, still cant make up my mind. it seems to be increasing testosterone as a side effect 

your temps look fantastic!


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## Blythe

i ordered these this morning....

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Jarrow-For...YGV8/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1358074669&sr=8-3

they are 25mg and i was thinking about starting a bit lower than that but it seems that girls are taking 2 x per day in prep for IVF so i might try just the one. Obviously concerns re anger issues/beard growth etc but will adjust dosage accordingly if any of these factor in for me.

my temps do look good and i love not having the fluctuations i was before so i credit the acu/herbs with that but the progesterone will also be having an effect i expect. I only tested as i wanted to see if to discontinue with prog cream and meeting friends for lunch and will have a drink.


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## Briss

thank you I may order some dhea as well 

Just came back from my acu session, right zigong was painful as usual. I complained about my short cycles, last two were 24 days and mainly cos I ovulate early I think. doc looked at my charts but did not think it was an issue cos my lp is within norm. They want me to take Tiao Jing Cu Yun Wan again and I actually think that it was exactly what caused me to O early. I was trying to explain it to the doc's assistant but she was just trying to make me take it and preferably buy it from them. maybe I messed it up myself cos i was supposed to take it from CD5 for 20 days and I stopped at 10-11 DPO cos I read that it should not be taken during pregnancy so basically I split it between two cycles and the second cycle I was taking it only once a day. I lied to the assistant and said I was taking it as instructed both cycles but for the second cycle I bought Tiao Jing Cu Yun Wan on the internet. Doc assistant said that herbs on the internet are not good even if they look exactly like their herbs. then she looked at my charts and said that my first 24 day cycle was normal but my second 24 day cycle came 5 days early. I thought it was complete rubbish she was just trying to make her point i.e. buy herbs from us. In the end I thought there was no point arguing with her and said I will continue taking Tiao Jing Cu Yun Wan which I am not going to do. I want to see if I O later and have longer cycle without it.


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## Blythe

Yeah i think you have to go with your gut instinct on this one....it will be interesting to see if you ovulate a little later this month. Are you ditching the epo this cycle?


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## Briss

yes i feel EPO is not working well with chinese herbs for some reason so will try this cycle to go without it


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## Briss

i still have red dots where the needles were. I am not sure if it's supposed to be red for days after the acu?

got another mini acne breakout on my chin :( clearly these herbs are not doing what they are supposed to. 

also something is wrong with my hormones this cycle from the very start i've been crying non stop every day, literally everything makes me feel sad and teary


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## Blythe

Oh no....i hope your hormones level out soon...maybe everything is rebalancing or you are letting go of stuff....it may be a good thing (although doesnt feel like it i expect).

My dh just got home from docs as they told me his results were back but they dont have them. He did it 4 weeks ago so if they dont have them i will cry...the last sample they tested a day late so it was no good.

Im going to doc on mon to see if they can send me to test to see if my tubes are blocked or not.


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## Blythe

The docs just called my dh and the hospital him that the sample was old and had bacteria in it so no good. He literally produced the sample in the hospital loos.....im so so angry. He is fuming as he has to take time off work. He will go again but said he wont do it again.....im so angry with the nhs!!!


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## Blythe

Briss...just seen this and thought of you. 

https://community.babycentre.co.uk/post/a726775/about_to_start_acupuncture_any_success_stories

One lady said she got acne with acu and that her acu person said it was the body healing itself and she got pregnant after too!


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## Briss

how awful!!! what hospital was it? they are supposed to be looking at it immediately, i cant believe they ruined two samples this is outrages! we do my DH's tests in Hammersmith hospital and my FS last time called them two days later and they told her the results over the phone.

CD 7 for me and got HIGh immediately so no hope for a longer cycle again


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## Briss

Blythe said:


> Briss...just seen this and thought of you.
> 
> https://community.babycentre.co.uk/post/a726775/about_to_start_acupuncture_any_success_stories
> 
> One lady said she got acne with acu and that her acu person said it was the body healing itself and she got pregnant after too!

thank you! never thought acne could be a sign of healing :) I will stick around with acu to see if it makes anything better although so far the main negatives are shorter cycles and spotting, well and acne. the good thing is much less clotting


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## Blythe

Briss said:


> how awful!!! what hospital was it? they are supposed to be looking at it immediately, i cant believe they ruined two samples this is outrages! we do my DH's tests in Hammersmith hospital and my FS last time called them two days later and they told her the results over the phone.
> 
> CD 7 for me and got HIGh immediately so no hope for a longer cycle again

Its st georges in tooting.....dh is furious and intends to go there again on monday and do a last sample and give them what for. The fact that they did not even bother to contact docs to let them know they had messed up again really p'd me off. 

Did you have to wait along time for your test for tube blockages.i think the one where put dye into them. Im going to try and get this tested even though i know you have had some issues re cycles since. I just want the all clear and then maybe save some money along the line if i do go private as i hope they wont have to test again.

Im expecting af either later today or first thing.....my pmt symptoms this month have been less than others so that is great and im interested to see what the bleeding will be like after a good few weeks of herbs and acu. I think its great that your clotting has got better...a really positive sign!


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## Briss

I did HSG (the one where put dye into the tubes, cant remember abbreviation) in Sep 2011 and it was totally fine, my AF after that was a bit more painful than usual but there were no other side effects. But unfortunately it did not answer all the questions and FS sent me for further tests. it was lap&Dye/Hysteroscopy that I had in april last year that messed it up for me. To book HSG I just called them on CD 1, cos you cant do it after CD15 and also they do not allow any BD so this might be a wasted cycle from TTC prospective.


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## Blythe

thank you for info....i have my appt on monday morning so fingers crossed a referral will be straightforward for me.

I recently picked up a book in a local second hand shop called 'Healing with Whole Foods: Asian Traditions and Modern Nutrition'...its enormous but ive been eyeing it up for years and glad i got it. It really explains the energetics of particular foods from the TCM perspective and has tons of info on how to help your body heal itself using food. Unfortunately chocolate does not get a mention [well it does but its not good:nope:].

how you getting on with the yoga? are you doing some each week? I still cannot make myself do any exercise which is bad i know and am determined to do something soon!


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## Briss

your chart looks excellent! fingers crossed you wont need this referral I can see that your temp dropped a little bit when you stopped progesterone, but not by too much so I guess your temps are great due to acu

re yoga, well I am still reading about kundalini yoga and trying to understand how it works. Pathetic I know but I did not do any exercises yet. I have several CDs with exercise and I started one but stopped fairly quickly as I did not expect it to be so intense. I did not have the strength and energy to do it. I need to start very slow with maybe 2-3 exercises and then hopefully it will gradually become part of my routine. 

My Dh discovered spirulina, all by himself! He had so much of it yesterday. I cant be more pleased. although he still mistrusts the Chinese herbs, so it's a struggle every morning 

Interesting book, am going to check it out.


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## Blythe

Briss said:


> your chart looks excellent! fingers crossed you wont need this referral I can see that your temp dropped a little bit when you stopped progesterone, but not by too much so I guess your temps are great due to acu
> 
> re yoga, well I am still reading about kundalini yoga and trying to understand how it works. Pathetic I know but I did not do any exercises yet. I have several CDs with exercise and I started one but stopped fairly quickly as I did not expect it to be so intense. I did not have the strength and energy to do it. I need to start very slow with maybe 2-3 exercises and then hopefully it will gradually become part of my routine.
> 
> My Dh discovered spirulina, all by himself! He had so much of it yesterday. I cant be more pleased. although he still mistrusts the Chinese herbs, so it's a struggle every morning
> 
> Interesting book, am going to check it out.

i don't think its pathetic at all....working full time and then fitting in fitness and nutrition and treatments is exhausting. I know what i need to do but i physically struggle. This time of year is so cold and dark that the thought of coming home then doing any form of exercise is just a step too far at the moment. Although i do know that it would only take a few days for it to become the norm again! Just got to struggle through those first few days i guess.

my temps are nice and even and i am really happy with lack of PMT symptoms, in particular i used to get quite unpleasant stomach pains intermittently from about 6/5 days before AF and those have virtually gone this cycle and i used to get really angry about 3/4 days before she came and, again, that hasn't happened. My recent negative pregnancy tests and the fact my boobs are no longer hurting have put paid to any hope of a positive but thats ok i will get it. Im just relieved that the treatments are having an effect and im still thrilled with the prog cream stopping my spotting. My DHEA has been despatched so i will start on 25mg per day once they arrive.

great news about your DH getting some spirulina down his throat! The Paul Pitchford book i mentioned earlier has a whole section of green foods, so the wheatgrasses/barleygrasses and spirulinas etc...


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## Briss

I stopped making juices a couple of weeks ago, first I replaced them with smoothies which are far easier to make (and less cleaning up afterwards) but then even smoothies became a struggle, as you said it's just too cold. I am still trying to squeeze a few grapefruits a day for better CM but this is it. I do not know what to do about chocolate, I just cannot go on without. I literally do not feel well without constantly eating sugar, often though I can eat dry fruit instead of chocolate (has the same effect on me).

acne is just getting worse, every morning I wake to a new "friend" on my face

Thank you for recommending this book. I feel I need some inspiration for eating better, just ordered it off amazon &#8230; reviews are fantastic. I eat lost of cold raw salads which on hand are supposed to be great healthy stuff but from Chinese standpoint not so great, struggle to understand why 

your temp is so promising but I do not want to raise your hopes, just keeping my fingers and toes crossed for you for this cycle&#8230;

are you going to be taking DHEA pre O only? I think DHEA is very powerful so I am still unsure whether I should take it, I used to have raised testosterone levels so maybe I am not the best candidate for this. cant decide


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## Blythe

Just started bleeding.....well spotting so wont count today as cd1 yet at least. I knew anyway so not at all gutted this cycle just pretty happy with the overall improvements. Dh has just come home with sample bottle and paperwork for new analysis on monday so fingers crossed this one will work!

Glad you ordered the book....it is something i see myself dipping into for years.

I have been making the blueberry/banana smoothie you recommended and i put in flaxseed and wheatgrass powder and stick it in a flask for work. But chocolate usually features at least once a day.....


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## Briss

I am sorry you started spotting :( I am still hoping it will stop

is the smoothies still good with wheatgrass? I usually add spinach cos i cant taste it, once i added watercress and it was rather awful it spoiled the entire drink.

I felt so guilty today cos I am not exercising or maybe because I saw myself in three-way mirror in a fitting room... not a pretty sight, needless to say I did not buy that dress. anyway, i got home and did an hour total workout with Jane Fonda followed buy some kundalini yoga exercises :) no idea where I got the energy from

why did your DH bring the sample bottle, are you doing it at home and then bringing it to the hospital? It may work if the hospital is near otherwise it might be better to do it at the hospital.


----------



## Blythe

Briss said:


> I am sorry you started spotting :( I am still hoping it will stop
> 
> is the smoothies still good with wheatgrass? I usually add spinach cos i cant taste it, once i added watercress and it was rather awful it spoiled the entire drink.
> 
> I felt so guilty today cos I am not exercising or maybe because I saw myself in three-way mirror in a fitting room... not a pretty sight, needless to say I did not buy that dress. anyway, i got home and did an hour total workout with Jane Fonda followed buy some kundalini yoga exercises :) no idea where I got the energy from
> 
> why did your DH bring the sample bottle, are you doing it at home and then bringing it to the hospital? It may work if the hospital is near otherwise it might be better to do it at the hospital.


oh yeah i forgot that i used spinach in the smoothie too and just a large teaspoon of the wheatgrass. I used to put fruit juice into my smoothies but just use water now so it is super healthily....as i put loads of spinach in so the taste is not as great as it would be with less spinach and no wheatgrass but its actually ok after a couple of days.

DH was given a sample bottle to use for next monday so this had better work...he produced the sample in the toilets opposite the reception area he then handed it into so im not sure what they are talking about...and the fact that they have buggered up two samples is just really upsetting.....dont they realise that people depend on them to get these right!!! But he will hand it into them again on monday morning and demand that this one is done right away.

I love jane fonda...well done for the exercise. I bet you felt great afterwards :happydance:

cd1 for me today although i started spotting last night but the blood is red so thats good...really hardly any usual discomfort i used to get on CD1 so that makes me happy [in the absence of getting that BFP i have to look for the smaller things to get me smiling nowadays!!]


----------



## Briss

Blythe, I am so very sorry AF got you, but you are right we should try to look on the bright side i.e. your post O temps was amazing and AF seems to be treating you well is also a good sign that acu's working 

I am so tired today but will persevere with jane fonda again, cos I have only 3 days between AF and O when I can do proper aerobics, I wont risk jumping around during O so I do not accidently kick my egg out of the tube... I guess once my temp is up I can do a couple of days of aerobics or may be not. would it help the swimmers to get to the egg while I am jumping around? or will it make it more difficult for them? really cant say. Yoga is probably safer but the kundalini kind I am doing is really intense, it's not about stretching and doing various poses, it's about making very fast movements together with breathing in a certain way so it gets really tiring after a few minutes


----------



## Blythe

i think during and post ovulation is a time to take it easier and avoid aerobics although perhaps the yoga will be ok because even though it sounds pretty hardcore i think the movements should not be too jumpy. Others may have an opinion on this and think the more movement the better as it all gets the blood circulating but im not so sure. The TCM stuff says to hold back on full on exercise during those two weeks.

i have so much work on, but not so much that i couldn't spend an hour deciding whether to ditch current COQ10 and buy much more expensive ubiquinol COQ10....which one are you taking? Im taking 400mg of the normal one.


----------



## Briss

I am currently taking the normal one https://www.naturesbest.co.uk/co-q10-100mg-p729/?src=gocoqo but as soon as it's finished I am going for this one https://www.highernature.co.uk/ShowProductFamily.aspx?ProductFamilyID=247 I think it's also a normal one but even though it say 30 on the bottle because of its high potency it's actually equivalent to over 300 so one cap would be enough for me. I am not buying into ubiquinol cos from what I read it's not that different and if you take coq10 together with vit E you get the same thing (ubiquinol is easily absorbed and you need vitamin E for absorption of coq10 so I figured this should save me some cost)

well if I only have 3 days until O I'd better carry on with J fonda&#8230; although am so tired am falling asleep as I type. I hope my motivations stays once I get home


----------



## Blythe

Thanks for info....i will invest in some vit e capsules instead.....

Gl wlth exercise tonight.....:thumbup:


----------



## Blythe

Was nosing around the normal ttc bit earler and saw a post from a young girl who is desperate for another child. Her and her new partner have been together a year (!) and been ttc for a few of those months (i assume)....she looks no older than 21....how about get to know your boyfriend properly first!!

Have acu tomorrow but as on period dont expect any needles in tummy....i saw a fertility acu site and her programmes were based on 3 acu treatments a month...none on week of period and that kind of fits in with ive been reading. Im thinking i might drop treatments when bleeding and supplements too (other than coq10) as it makes it more cost effective for me and easier to keep up with if i have to do this for months.


----------



## Briss

I also venture sometimes to general TTC section but usually only when I have a particular question cos there are far more people looking through this section and more likely to get an answer. I stupidly joined a thread of ladies ovulating during Christmas, most got BFPs in Jan after TTc for a couple of months while I am still here; depressing so I am also sticking to over 35 or LTTTC sections.

I have a pregnant friend with whom I am not even talking any more :( I've been TTC for ages and when she started I offered lots of help and advice and not surprisingly she got pregnant on her second month. it was just so awkward so we stopped talking and now no one knows how to make the first step. I am in no hurry, just too hard.

Got the food book, oh my it's huge! I am so excited, there is wealth of info, I wish I could just swallow it and get all this knowledge into my head straight away


----------



## Briss

I had acu on CD 4 and 5 and both times I had needles in my tummy... but I am not concerned, my only worry is anything post O


----------



## Blythe

have just ordered this...uk site no P&P costs

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B0013OSKKY/ref=oh_details_o00_s00_i00

its DHEA without the horrid side effects...i wont bother with the other ones i ordered. I have a new app on my phone to record how much i spend...on tea, choc, shopping etc etc and set up a tab for TTC....its frightening how much i spend :wacko:

Your book arrived fast...its brill isn't it!


----------



## Briss

I've never heard of this type of DHEA, how did you find out about it? Do you trust this "Now Foods" brand? I bought their horny goat for my DH but I am not sure it's working.

I know far too well about spending on TTC, I decided not to keep track of how much I spent because it will make me seriously depressed, we are talking thousands over the last 2 years (maybe even enough for medicated IVF, definitely cover the natural). I try and shift some of it to my DH, but unfortunately I order most on-line (because I do not think H&B stuff is good quality) so it all come out of my credit card...

I am in a bit of a panic today, we were saving DH's sperm for 2 days so we could BD on the first peak which we did but late at night and this morning I got a temp rise, I checked 3 times and put down the lowest temp I got (I will play with it later when I get cross hairs) but it still looks like I O yesterday which means we totally missed it :( on the other hand I did not sleep well, was tossing and turning all night barely slept for a couple of hours in total which may explain the raised temp this morning. shall I ignore it? besides I never O on my first peak, I O either on my second peak or on the high after that and also I really hate the idea of O on CD10 :( it will probably be clear when (or should I say if) AF shows up cos my LH is 13-14 days so I will just count backwards to confirm O.


----------



## Blythe

I used a CBFM for ages and never never ovulated on the first peak....usually pm on the second or day after. Do you use OPKs in the PM...i wonder if you did get your LH surge beginning on the pm of CD9. Either way can you BD today? The egg knocks about for a bit...the month i got pregnant i BD once that month and it was after ovulation on CD15 in the morning and i used to ovulate CD13/14 so its not too late.

Of course, if you did have a bad night that is probably it....also what with this cold snap and central heating being on i wonder how accurate my temps are so that may have effected it.

I know what you mean about H&B....i was going to ask actually what brand of l-arginine you get DH taking as i need to get some more and had been using the H&B ones but think i will change them. I will try those new DHEA i have brought just because i cannot really justify buying a third lot. I found out about it this am as i was trying to get opionions on whether to use just DHEA or micronized DHEA and it just led me to that...


----------



## Blythe

sorry i re-read your post and chart and see you do OPK too...i see you did BD late last night which means if you did ovulate you probably did late last night so honestly if that was the case looks like PERFECT timing to me. I know it can take a few hours for sperm to get there sometime but it can get there quickly so if you have an egg that is just released then it all sounds good to me and if you ovulated early this am all the better.


----------



## Briss

thank you Blythe, we did BD this morning but with only 9 hours since the previous BD session I am not there was sufficient number of sperm there. 

i used smilie face OPK in pm but I only did it on the day of peak, who knows it might have showed positive the day before if I tried. the reason i do OPK on top of CBFM is cos a few times i got positive the day after peak and O on the day of high after the second peak. but it was with two lines OPK, smilie face seems to work exactly like CBFM. and i only use 1-2 sticks per cycle cos they are so expensive 

May be you are right and we should BD after O as well, cos we mostly stop any BD on the day of O.

I used to buy H&B's arginine for DH but it did not work, now I am buying higher nature's one and it can tell the difference. MY DH's sex drive is non existent but after he started taking higher nature's arginine I see far more action in the bedroom :)


----------



## Blythe

Couple of interesting links

https://www.yinyanghouse.com/

The other i cant copy but just stick in 'chi amazing footage' and you tube link should come up...its an indonesian guy quite cool!


----------



## Briss

Truly amazing person!


----------



## Blythe

Yeah its fascinating...experienced acupuncturists can direct chi as can martial artists. If you rub your hands together for a while and bring them together as if you are holding a ball in front Of you and you might feel some resistance...thats chi. I used to do qi gong and we would do that every session.


----------



## Briss

I might be coming down with something, have been sneezing all day, just checked my temperature and it's quite high :( no way I can pinpoint my O this cycle based on temp. I wonder if I should still do acu tomorrow?

How was your acu today?


----------



## Blythe

Acu was good....it felt really powerful. He used some different points which pleased me no end as he was using the same ones all the time but he said he wouldn't put any in tummy as he did not want to prolong bleeding. He out a couple in front thigh along stomach meridian and the top one hurt. I checked out the points when i came home and not sure why he used them. He only put them in one leg And i asked why and he said if he put them in both it would be too strong.

I really felt so relaxed and heavy and then really good when i came out. It was a great session all in all which is what i needed as i do struggle to justify the cost sometimes.

Sorry you are feeling unwell....personally i think the pre-ovulation sessions are most beneficial...when you have ovulated its time to rest and wrap up warm so i would be inclined to take a week off if you are feeling under the weather. Its far too cold out too!


----------



## Briss

FF put my O for CD 9 even before the peak :( this is just ridiculous! 

Decided to skip my acu today, will not be getting my herbs as well for the whole week.

it's good that you are getting different points stimulating, I get the same points more or less every time. may be I am spotting for a few days after AF because I get needles in tummy during AF?


----------



## Blythe

Briss said:


> FF put my O for CD 9 even before the peak :( this is just ridiculous!
> 
> Decided to skip my acu today, will not be getting my herbs as well for the whole week.
> 
> it's good that you are getting different points stimulating, I get the same points more or less every time. may be I am spotting for a few days after AF because I get needles in tummy during AF?

Quite possibly as i see you are spotting quite a bit...the acu draws blood directly to the area and doc says its the only time of the month he will avoid that area as he doesn't want me bleeding too much.


----------



## Blythe

Briss said:


> FF put my O for CD 9 even before the peak :( this is just ridiculous!
> 
> Decided to skip my acu today, will not be getting my herbs as well for the whole week.
> 
> it's good that you are getting different points stimulating, I get the same points more or less every time. may be I am spotting for a few days after AF because I get needles in tummy during AF?

FF has put your ovulation down pre LH surge so i would ignore that for now...see how your temps are for next few days but i suspect CD 11....hope you are feeling a little better today:flower:


----------



## Briss

I started spotting after lap and well before I did acu but i was just hoping it can help. maybe if i did not have needles in my tummy during AF it would have helped, i will ask my acu doc next week.


----------



## Briss

Blythe said:


> Briss said:
> 
> 
> FF put my O for CD 9 even before the peak :( this is just ridiculous!
> 
> Decided to skip my acu today, will not be getting my herbs as well for the whole week.
> 
> it's good that you are getting different points stimulating, I get the same points more or less every time. may be I am spotting for a few days after AF because I get needles in tummy during AF?
> 
> FF has put your ovulation down pre LH surge so i would ignore that for now...see how your temps are for next few days but i suspect CD 11....hope you are feeling a little better today:flower:Click to expand...

thanks I am also hoping for CD 11 but I think FF will probably put it for CD10 even my temp stays up. you are right i should wait a few days.


----------



## alison29

Briss said:


> thank you Blythe, we did BD this morning but with only 9 hours since the previous BD session I am not there was sufficient number of sperm there.
> 
> i used smilie face OPK in pm but I only did it on the day of peak, who knows it might have showed positive the day before if I tried. the reason i do OPK on top of CBFM is cos a few times i got positive the day after peak and O on the day of high after the second peak. but it was with two lines OPK, smilie face seems to work exactly like CBFM. and i only use 1-2 sticks per cycle cos they are so expensive
> 
> May be you are right and we should BD after O as well, cos we mostly stop any BD on the day of O.
> 
> I used to buy H&B's arginine for DH but it did not work, now I am buying higher nature's one and it can tell the difference. MY DH's sex drive is non existent but after he started taking higher nature's arginine I see far more action in the bedroom :)

thanks for the tip about arginine


----------



## Blythe

alison29 said:


> Briss said:
> 
> 
> thank you Blythe, we did BD this morning but with only 9 hours since the previous BD session I am not there was sufficient number of sperm there.
> 
> i used smilie face OPK in pm but I only did it on the day of peak, who knows it might have showed positive the day before if I tried. the reason i do OPK on top of CBFM is cos a few times i got positive the day after peak and O on the day of high after the second peak. but it was with two lines OPK, smilie face seems to work exactly like CBFM. and i only use 1-2 sticks per cycle cos they are so expensive
> 
> May be you are right and we should BD after O as well, cos we mostly stop any BD on the day of O.
> 
> I used to buy H&B's arginine for DH but it did not work, now I am buying higher nature's one and it can tell the difference. MY DH's sex drive is non existent but after he started taking higher nature's arginine I see far more action in the bedroom :)
> 
> thanks for the tip about arginineClick to expand...

i ordered some decent quality and higher strength l-arginine yesterday so fingers crossed it will give DH some more get up and go! I will (probably) be taking it too.


----------



## Blythe

I went to docs this am so try and get a referral for lap/dye and she has referred me to fertility clinic although made clear again i would not qualify for any treatment given my age. anyhow, apparently the referral for lay/dye has to come from the fertility clinic rather than my doc so i have an appt for the clinic on 6 march. The lady that runs the clinic also runs the Create IVF centre in wimbledon so hopefully i get to see her. I could just about manage a natural round of ivf financially but i just cannot justify 5k when we are STILL saving for a deposit.....being practical, the heartbreak of failure coupled with financial setback of that magnitude would be just too much! 

still back to being positive...i may be pregnant by then!!


----------



## Briss

I am so annoyed with FF, it still keeps my O at CD9 even though my temp is moving up (mainly due to cold getting worse), if it's true we so missed it cos we DB after that. 

have you booked your HSG? why do you need lap/dye? it's so invasive! if HSG shows that your tubes are fine I would not do lap/dye. Sorry. if I am projecting my unfortunate experience but I just so regret letting them do it, it served no other purpose than for my IVF referral which you wont get via NHS anyway. My Dh has the money for IVf but wont spend them on this out of principal (no idea what principal is that), I can still try to qualify for 1 free IVF via NHS if my FSH goes down but it is going to be fully medicated so I'd rather we pay for natural. 

I should also keep positive and hope we get pregnant soon. High up on my to do list is getting DH to do his test this week. am so hoping there will be improvement

I woke up in the middle of the night with really bad pain in my right ovary, was similar to ovulation pain so a bit confused cos was supposed to O by now, may be it was my cyst&#8230;


----------



## Blythe

i told my doc i wanted to get the test where dye is injected in my tubes and im sure i said "HSG or something like that" but she said that would only be done via a referral from the fertility clinic. As i already know they cannot refer me for any IUI/IVF im not really sure what they can do...

i see FF is still convinced you O on CD9...i still think later but its difficult as you have been feeling unwell so it may well have affected those temps. I often get pains of all kinds in my ovaries/fallopian tubes after ovulating and my recent scan showed i had no cysts...come to think of it im getting some today.

i hope you can get your DH to the hospital this week...i would be very interested to hear if the supplements have had an effect on the SA results. My DH will be going for his third trip to st georges hopefully this week.


----------



## Briss

HSG is fine it's a 15 min procedure, Lap&Dye is a full-on operation under general anaesthetic but they will also be injecting dye in your tubes as well as looking at your insides through a hole in your belly. we went to GP, GP sent us to a FS and FS referred for HSG and other tests, took about 4 months.

Finally FF saw the light and put my O for CD 11 :)


----------



## Blythe

Good news about FF...your chart makes much better sense now!

Thanks for info re tests...i would like to get confirmation that my tubes are clear but i feel [not sure why] they probably are. There is nothing else they can do for me really. Well perhaps as the clinic is related to create health maybe suggest best [and cheapest] way forward for me.

having said all that im excited to see if the acu and herbs continues to have a good effect on my cycles so keeping my hopes up for a natural BFP in the next 3/4 months.


----------



## alison29

good idea about me taking it too the arginine I never thought of that. I just spoke with my dr's nurse about if my clomid cycle fails (i don't have huge hopes) that I get to schedule a lap too. I really need to talk to the medical billing lady too because they have to code it for Endometriosis NOT infertility as the financial whopper for that would kill, my insurance does not cover any infert..
BTW I have tried chinese accupuncture before I really believe it helped me get my first BFP after a lap though. I tried doing the accu with a different lady last year because it was cheaper but I don't think it was the same.
I hope you guys don't mind me butting in here. I have been lurking because I know the accu works.

I have a lot of faith in the lap i am sure it will has/will help you guys too!


----------



## alison29

Blythe said:


> i ordered these this morning....
> 
> https://www.amazon.co.uk/Jarrow-For...YGV8/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1358074669&sr=8-3
> 
> they are 25mg and i was thinking about starting a bit lower than that but it seems that girls are taking 2 x per day in prep for IVF so i might try just the one. Obviously concerns re anger issues/beard growth etc but will adjust dosage accordingly if any of these factor in for me.
> 
> my temps do look good and i love not having the fluctuations i was before so i credit the acu/herbs with that but the progesterone will also be having an effect i expect. I only tested as i wanted to see if to discontinue with prog cream and meeting friends for lunch and will have a drink.

You guys are cracking me up with the talk about our dh's ha ha ha useless knob :haha:..I feel your pain. Seriously is bd twice a week too much to ask?! I have been giving my dh dhea and i see the anger thing happening: He got irritated with me for yawning loudly (i had my earbuds in didn't know) twice at the gym on the bikes, then that same day he freaked on me because he had two turn the oven off!" I left it on while i was serving dinner not all night! Whoa hormonal men look out!


----------



## Rashaa

Hang in there ladies, It CAN Happen! When we got preggers, two other mom's at our acupuncture clinic had also fallen pregnant. :dust: :dust: :dust:


----------



## Blythe

alison29 said:


> Blythe said:
> 
> 
> i ordered these this morning....
> 
> https://www.amazon.co.uk/Jarrow-For...YGV8/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1358074669&sr=8-3
> 
> they are 25mg and i was thinking about starting a bit lower than that but it seems that girls are taking 2 x per day in prep for IVF so i might try just the one. Obviously concerns re anger issues/beard growth etc but will adjust dosage accordingly if any of these factor in for me.
> 
> my temps do look good and i love not having the fluctuations i was before so i credit the acu/herbs with that but the progesterone will also be having an effect i expect. I only tested as i wanted to see if to discontinue with prog cream and meeting friends for lunch and will have a drink.
> 
> You guys are cracking me up with the talk about our dh's ha ha ha useless knob :haha:..I feel your pain. Seriously is bd twice a week too much to ask?! I have been giving my dh dhea and i see the anger thing happening: He got irritated with me for yawning loudly (i had my earbuds in didn't know) twice at the gym on the bikes, then that same day he freaked on me because he had two turn the oven off!" I left it on while i was serving dinner not all night! Whoa hormonal men look out!Click to expand...


hi alison...i find myself quite happily tapping away having a good moan about DH and he is usually in the same room...i would be mortified if he saw what i said about him but its good to get it out!! less grief for him in the long run!!

i don't have any experience with medical insurance as we have the trusty NHS over here but it can have its own frustrations....waiting and not being eligible for certain fertility treatments are a couple. 

i started trying for no.2 when i was 38 and wish i had pushed my doc into referring me then as i would have been eligible but i really thought it would happen within a few months...along the way i have been trying along with friends and now they have their babies but I'm still messing around with charts etc I have to remind myself that im 40 and it might not happen for us but i don't feel it and still feel positive it will happen.

This is my third crack at acu and herbs during the last couple of years and I've had good and rubbish experiences with it but I'm going to stick with it for as long as i can financially justify it.

I'm curious about DHEA for men as i always considered it for women only in terms of TTC...

its always brilliant to hear of other girls who have had a positive response to acu...:thumbup:


----------



## alison29

I think it is better to vent online then in the 3D world so we shouldn't feel guilty but I sure would hate for him to read it too. I know men talk crap too though so it makes accepting that part easier.


----------



## alison29

OMG last night my dh said his friend was on testtosterone gel to help him because he had to much estrogen and not enought T and him and his wife were goign at it ALL the time. he said he was going to ask our dr for it. Of course I was all for that anything that will keep him manly and help us in the bdroom UNTIL i googled it and it lowers sperm count!!! Holy crap it kept me up last night. I found some other reasons it was bad so he is not oging to do it. Hopfully the the L argnine will do the trick.


----------



## Briss

Alison, I completely agree testosterone gel is not such a great idea because it's hormone and I understand that once your body gets this hormone it thinks that it has enough so it does not produce any more and in the long term you will be producing less and less which is disastrous for sperm count. My Dh has this issue and we were told to take tribulus and horny goat cos these herbs make your body produce more testosterone and ultimately increase sperm count. I am not sure if this worked yet cos hubby is due to repeat his test this week, I will keep you posted.


----------



## Briss

Blythe said:


> Good news about FF...your chart makes much better sense now!
> 
> Thanks for info re tests...i would like to get confirmation that my tubes are clear but i feel [not sure why] they probably are. There is nothing else they can do for me really. Well perhaps as the clinic is related to create health maybe suggest best [and cheapest] way forward for me.
> 
> having said all that im excited to see if the acu and herbs continues to have a good effect on my cycles so keeping my hopes up for a natural BFP in the next 3/4 months.

My cold is still there and is not getting any better despite all the vitamins, not sure how much I can trust my temp. not really great to be sick during TWW.

It's good that they are related to create health, this is one of the two clinics I am eyeing up for the natural cycle IVF. I so hope we wont have to go that route and will get our natural BFP soon!

I introduced ginger into my diet. it's supposed to be warming food and I am cold according to Chinese medicine. I make myself a drink with lemon ginger and honey  really good actually as well as healing (hopefully)


----------



## Blythe

alison29 said:


> OMG last night my dh said his friend was on testtosterone gel to help him because he had to much estrogen and not enought T and him and his wife were goign at it ALL the time. he said he was going to ask our dr for it. Of course I was all for that anything that will keep him manly and help us in the bdroom UNTIL i googled it and it lowers sperm count!!! Holy crap it kept me up last night. I found some other reasons it was bad so he is not oging to do it. Hopfully the the L argnine will do the trick.

I got some new stronger l-arginine today so will start pumping dh with it from tomorrow!!


----------



## Blythe

Briss said:


> Blythe said:
> 
> 
> Good news about FF...your chart makes much better sense now!
> 
> Thanks for info re tests...i would like to get confirmation that my tubes are clear but i feel [not sure why] they probably are. There is nothing else they can do for me really. Well perhaps as the clinic is related to create health maybe suggest best [and cheapest] way forward for me.
> 
> having said all that im excited to see if the acu and herbs continues to have a good effect on my cycles so keeping my hopes up for a natural BFP in the next 3/4 months.
> 
> My cold is still there and is not getting any better despite all the vitamins, not sure how much I can trust my temp. not really great to be sick during TWW.
> 
> It's good that they are related to create health, this is one of the two clinics I am eyeing up for the natural cycle IVF. I so hope we wont have to go that route and will get our natural BFP soon!
> 
> I introduced ginger into my diet. it's supposed to be warming food and I am cold according to Chinese medicine. I make myself a drink with lemon ginger and honey  really good actually as well as healing (hopefully)Click to expand...



Hopefully that ginger and lemon will help clear your cold...i have some ginger tea at work so might have some tomorrow. I wonder what nettle tea is classed as in tcm terms as ive had about 6 cups today. Hope its not cooling.

Feeling super fat today....its this cold weather i cannot stop eating! I got my 7-keto today and its used to help shift fat so v.pleased to see that. Not sure if to start it pre-ovulation or not.

Your temps look lovely but understand your point re illness.


----------



## Briss

nettle nourishes blood and restored deficient liver blood and yin, whatever it means. I've been drinking nettles every day since last May, I made myself drink it instead of coffee in the morning. Not really sure what it's doing to my body but hopefully something good :)

I've just had 4 M&S' eclairs, do not wanna know how many calories it is...


----------



## MalaMae

Hi girls,

OMG, I have something to share with you. Today I had a acu session and at each weekly session he gives me different herbs. Well today I did not get herbs, but "zi he che fen"- dried human placenta!! ...and I drank it!
It's so weird!!! and horrible taste!!
He gave me this due to my weird period for the past 2 months- clumped blood. I didn't have regular liquid blood with clots, but clumped blood with no clots. He said it's implantation and immune system problem.

I don't know what else to write now, I'm still in shock what I drank! I just had to share it with you. :)


----------



## Blythe

Yummy....I've just polished off big bag of giant chocolate buttons. Hey you have to feed a cold isn't that what they say:wacko:

Cheers for info re nettle tea...that sounds good. I brought some dandelion tea today too for a change.


----------



## Blythe

MalaMae said:


> Hi girls,
> 
> OMG, I have something to share with you. Today I had a acu session and at each weekly session he gives me different herbs. Well today I did not get herbs, but "zi he che fen"- dried human placenta!! ...and I drank it!
> It's so weird!!! and horrible taste!!
> He gave me this due to my weird period for the past 2 months- clumped blood. I didn't have regular liquid blood with clots, but clumped blood with no clots. He said it's implantation and immune system problem.
> 
> I don't know what else to write now, I'm still in shock what I drank! I just had to share it with you. :)

Good grief!! Its encouraging that he gives you different herbs each week as i think it shows he is paying attention. I have the same ones each week.

Human placenta eh....I've read about this for fertility. If this works for you im definitely going to get some by whatever means necessary! Thanks for sharing....I'm impressed!!


----------



## MalaMae

Blythe,

I hope it works too, cause I won't be able to drink for too long something that tastes like dead flash! :))) LOL
It better works!!!

Yeah, and Chinese are using placenta as remedy for over 1400 years.


----------



## FireBaby

Isn't there some kind of regulation against using placenta for human consumption - I mean other than your own placenta?


----------



## FireBaby

Oh I guess its from a cow not a human
https://blueskyvitamin.com/placenta...ormulas.html?gclid=COiA2dSv_7QCFYl7Qgode1MAnA


----------



## MalaMae

On the pouches says "placenta hominis" so I guess it's human, plus it's from chinese manufacturer.
And actually it's not against the law to eat placenta, there are actually recipes for that. :)) lol

Still weird.


----------



## FireBaby

Totally weird!!!
And I realized I've taken these herbs from my acupuncturist too
https://www.tcmtreatment.com/herbs/0-ziheche.htm

Yikes....


----------



## Blythe

FireBaby said:


> Totally weird!!!
> And I realized I've taken these herbs from my acupuncturist too
> https://www.tcmtreatment.com/herbs/0-ziheche.htm
> 
> Yikes....

The picture of the dried placenta in that link makes it so much more appealing :nope:


----------



## Blythe

Rashaa said:


> Hang in there ladies, It CAN Happen! When we got preggers, two other mom's at our acupuncture clinic had also fallen pregnant. :dust: :dust: :dust:

Rashaa

Congratulations....i just read your journal. So pleased for you! 

Can i ask did you keep up with the acu and herbs?..i know you were having 3 x sessions per week. 

What wonderful news...I'm feeling very positive now!


----------



## Briss

MalaMae, that sounds extreme :) human placenta! actually supposed to be really good, there is even an option nowadays to get your own after birth and then freeze it or turn into pills and eat it... weird stuff, whatever it takes to get pregnant


----------



## MalaMae

FireBaby said:


> Totally weird!!!
> And I realized I've taken these herbs from my acupuncturist too
> https://www.tcmtreatment.com/herbs/0-ziheche.htm
> 
> Yikes....

Sorry I made you realize what you had. Sometimes is better not to know :)) LOL


----------



## MalaMae

Briss said:


> MalaMae, that sounds extreme :) human placenta! actually supposed to be really good, there is even an option nowadays to get your own after birth and then freeze it or turn into pills and eat it... weird stuff, whatever it takes to get pregnant

It's soo weird. The whole day I'm shaking my head in disbelieve :)
I'm supose to take this for the next 7 days twice daily. I'm sure it will be still weird after these 7 days.


----------



## FireBaby

Funny!
Well I've heard of people freezing their own placentas but eating someone else's placenta (!!!) 
A friend of mine gave birth and she froze her placenta into pills- I was kind of grossed out but she said she didn't think she would have coped without it - apparently it gave her loads of energy etc. she said it's sort of mainstream to do it not just a hippie thing. But eating someone else's placenta....kind of weird and how do they collect them from people? From hospitals in China? I mean WEIRD!!!


----------



## FireBaby

Illegal trading of placentas in China: https://english.people.com.cn/102780/7619279.html

Placenta's for post partum depression https://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/health/2007-07-18-placenta-ingestion_N.htm

I can't believe I've eaten someone else's placenta (!!!!!!!!!!!!)


----------



## MalaMae

FireBaby said:


> Funny!
> Well I've heard of people freezing their own placentas but eating someone else's placenta (!!!)
> A friend of mine gave birth and she froze her placenta into pills- I was kind of grossed out but she said she didn't think she would have coped without it - apparently it gave her loads of energy etc. she said it's sort of mainstream to do it not just a hippie thing. But eating someone else's placenta....kind of weird and how do they collect them from people? From hospitals in China? I mean WEIRD!!!

Excatly my question- how are they collecting it?


----------



## MalaMae

FireBaby said:


> Illegal trading of placentas in China: https://english.people.com.cn/102780/7619279.html
> 
> Placenta's for post partum depression https://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/health/2007-07-18-placenta-ingestion_N.htm
> 
> I can't believe I've eaten someone else's placenta (!!!!!!!!!!!!)

If it's any better it was only 3 grams per pouch :)

I wish I never found out. Damn internet!
It better works!!


----------



## Briss

I am so upset! I finally (after 2 months of nagging) got my DH to the hospital to repeat his sperm test only to found out they changed their rules and now require prior appointment the fist available being 14 feb!!! what the h&#8230;. !!!!! It was so hard to get him there and all for nothing, On top of that 14 Feb is my next O date so there is no way I am wasting his sperm on that date, will have to change it, just so upsetting, badly done Hammersmith hospital! very badly done! had two lattés this morning (my fist latte in 6 months!!!) am now all shaking and feeling really ill. just needed to vent, cant hold it all in 

am freaking out about the placenta stuff, I think it's better not to over analyse it just think how great this stuff is supposed to be regardless of where it comes from


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## Blythe

Oh briss im sorry about the hospital....what a massive disappointment! We get ourselves geared up for something and then a big let down....my dh has not been able to return to the hospital this week due to work and i ovulate next week so thats out.

I cant believe you have to make an appt now.....lets hope those supps are doing their magic and this months the one!


----------



## Briss

thank you Blythe, luckily had a very busy day at work, just got home and did not have time to be too upset about it. you are right, will try to be optimistic.


----------



## Briss

I have no idea what my temp is doing but it does not look good...


----------



## Blythe

Could be implantation dip.......could be this weather or that you were feeling poorly perhaps.

To be honest im going to try my best not to obsess over my temps and just use them as a guide for ovulation.....having looked at the pregnancy ones there is no rhyme or reason to some of them.....easier said than done of course.


----------



## Blythe

I went to the institute of Chinese medicine today during my lunchbreak.

https://www.instituteofchinesemedicine.org/

They charge 35 for half hour sessions and do buy 5 get 1 free. The herbs are anout 6/7 per day and they do deals on that too.

They know their stuff and work with women going through fertility treatments. Their english is great.....i was saying im not sure my guy is completly au fait with all the phases of a woman's cycle as my treatments dont vary a great deal....anyway im going there if i go off my current guy!


----------



## Rashaa

Sorry for the late reply, I've been crashing early at home lol. I am still keeping up with acu and chiro, but I tabled the herbs for now. My TCM doc will be doing new herbs for me after my first trimester, just to be safe....

I can't be without my acu though :) Good luck to you!! Stay with it and dont' give up!



Blythe said:


> Rashaa said:
> 
> 
> Hang in there ladies, It CAN Happen! When we got preggers, two other mom's at our acupuncture clinic had also fallen pregnant. :dust: :dust: :dust:
> 
> Rashaa
> 
> Congratulations....i just read your journal. So pleased for you!
> 
> Can i ask did you keep up with the acu and herbs?..i know you were having 3 x sessions per week.
> 
> What wonderful news...I'm feeling very positive now!Click to expand...


----------



## FireBaby

Rashaa - did your acu suggest you go off the herbs or did you make that decision? I've been wondering when (hopefully soon) I get my BFP if I should take up herbs and what vitamins/supps to continue/discontinue....maybe I'm jumping the gun a little but I think it's good to have a plan :)

Sending you stickies for a H&H 9 months :)


----------



## Briss

35 for half hour is reasonable, besides they are close to the city I can go there during my lunch break. certainly something to think about. I've been going to my acu doc for 3 months now but i cant say i see that much of a difference, energy levels and cold thing are slightly better, almost no clots but acne is still there plus short cycles and spotting. and she also does not really change treatment depending on where I am in my cycle. I've been getting more or less the same herbs and acu points all along.

I had some rum last night and my cold is so much better today :) maybe that explains why my temp is down. I should stop obsessing about my temp. I keep bringing her my charts but she is only interested in my period...


----------



## FireBaby

Not sure if they have them in the UK but here we have 'community' acupuncture - you are in a room with dividers and other people but the treatment I've found is the same as going to a 'private' acupuncturist and they charge $25 vs $110 for the private one I'd been going to...I haven't been for a while but reading all your posts are inspiring me to go back to acupuncture....


----------



## Briss

Firebaby, I think we have something like that but I am so not sure what quality of treatment you can get there, mine while is supposed to be private quite often i share a room with another patient. It seems like so many people are offering acu these days it's really hard to determine which ones are good and which ones are not so good.


----------



## Blythe

I love rum! 

Firebaby......not sure if any community places near where i am in London....i know there are clinics attached to teaching colleges which are cheaper.....the place I'm going to works out at £20 but its the herbs that are the killers!!


----------



## FireBaby

Yeah I kind of went off the herbs for a while. They seemed to be doing good things for me although I did notice my cycle was getting rather short....the reason I went off them was a friend of mine was getting really bad reactions to the herbs - she developed a cyst from taking them and as a result she investigated what they were giving her - it turns out that the diagnosis they give you based on your 'pulse' might not always be that accurate. Also the acupuncturist kept saying to me that my temperatures were up and down because I was 'emotional' - which I wasn't - but she was so insistent I started to feel that perhaps I was getting emotional and that was affected my hormones - however I started to do vaginal temps (kinda gross but so much more effective for me) and my temperatures smoothed out completely which makes me think she was completely wrong with her 'emotional' diagnosis...Anyway long story but I decided to skip the herbs for a while and go to the community acupuncture instead now and then and just regulate my cycles and help egg quality with supplements - I'm taking myo inositol, l-arginine and coq10 along with my pre-natal... and I've managed to keep my temperatures up throughout my LP....


----------



## Blythe

Yeah you have to go with your gut feeling......my acu always asked about whether my hands and feet have warmed up and i always say yes.....NEXT! He says nothing about my emotions although his English is not that great. Although his receptionist informed me that apparently stress will not help my efforts....no shit sherlock!! Im really trying to be patient and realise i might get some negative stuff happening whilst my body sorts itself out. Im hoping that it helps my eggs as im lucky that i have a regular cycle and ovulate every month around about the same time. I think for most people Chinese medicine is quite gentle and changes are gradual but i do read those stories where women have amazing (and fast) reactions to it. Thats not good about your friend getting a cyst...what an awful reaction....


----------



## FireBaby

I know that's super annoying when they tell you that stress won't help things - I have the same no shit sherlock reaction when I hear that too. I mean it sometimes seems like its a bit of a default/fallback thing they say to me when I keep coming back month after month without a BFP. Grrrrrrrr.


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## Briss

i am quite sure about acu cos the points my docs is needling are the ones Lewis talks about in her book but most of the herbs are different, I am just trying to trust she knows what she is doing but I guess as in any other medicine correct diagnose is the key


----------



## FireBaby

Yeah that is a great book. I actually brought it with me to an appointment one day and told the acupuncturist I wanted her to do that point that was like "calling the spirit of the unconcieved child" or something like that. She had a different pattern worked out for the needles that day but she said that combined it would have the same effect as that point in Lewis' book.


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## Rashaa

He suggested going off the herbs until second trimester. His wife is pregnant, and she did the same...all I am taking in a multivitamin with 5 mg folic acid. That's it.




FireBaby said:


> Rashaa - did your acu suggest you go off the herbs or did you make that decision? I've been wondering when (hopefully soon) I get my BFP if I should take up herbs and what vitamins/supps to continue/discontinue....maybe I'm jumping the gun a little but I think it's good to have a plan :)
> 
> Sending you stickies for a H&H 9 months :)


----------



## Briss

blythe, how was your acu appointment yesterday?

I got lots of additional needles in my face today, at least 8 in my chin and cheeks, hopefully will help with acne although in last 2 months I had no joy. she also said that my acne is a sign of hormonal imbalance. I've heard that before from western doctors. though no one clarifies what kind of imbalance and what i need to do to correct it. 

my zigonds were fine today I was even able to allow stronger electric currents through them. but on my way back I felt really strong cramps like the period ones, I am getting worried now cos am in TWW.

Also, at least 3 of the needles seem to puncture my veins/blood vessels, am bruised :( she said it happens nothing to worry about. I sure hope so.

I have 2 more acu and 3 more weeks of herbs, am seriously thinking whether I should continue. I really do not see that much of a change since I started. 

I started reading a great book that really explains how chinese medicine works, it's not fertility specific but I finally begin to understand all this talk about Qi, Blood etc. it's called the web that has no weaver https://www.amazon.com/Web-That-Has-Weaver-Understanding/dp/0809228408


----------



## Blythe

Briss said:


> blythe, how was your acu appointment yesterday?
> 
> I got lots of additional needles in my face today, at least 8 in my chin and cheeks, hopefully will help with acne although in last 2 months I had no joy. she also said that my acne is a sign of hormonal imbalance. I've heard that before from western doctors. though no one clarifies what kind of imbalance and what i need to do to correct it.
> 
> my zigonds were fine today I was even able to allow stronger electric currents through them. but on my way back I felt really strong cramps like the period ones, I am getting worried now cos am in TWW.
> 
> Also, at least 3 of the needles seem to puncture my veins/blood vessels, am bruised :( she said it happens nothing to worry about. I sure hope so.
> 
> I have 2 more acu and 3 more weeks of herbs, am seriously thinking whether I should continue. I really do not see that much of a change since I started.
> 
> I started reading a great book that really explains how chinese medicine works, it's not fertility specific but I finally begin to understand all this talk about Qi, Blood etc. it's called the web that has no weaver https://www.amazon.com/Web-That-Has-Weaver-Understanding/dp/0809228408

Hi Briss

i have just got back from my appt...i was in Birmingham this weekend so had to put it forward a day. I had lots of needles in my legs and tummy but none at all in my head...a first! im due to ovulate tomorrow or next day i think but then again i did not take my temp today or do an OPK. will BD tonight hopefullly and next couple of days...we will see

the doc gave me a quick back massage and was really rubbing the lower bit as i said ive been in quite bad pain with it....i dont mind telling you i became quite aroused...maybe its because im due to ovulate!!

I have that book and think its great...thanks for the recommendation though.....:flower: It is currently next to my bed....it has a massive section on pulses which i was trying to decipher (unsuccessfully).

Perhaps you should think about another practitioner...I do understand how you feel when you cannot seen any real changes. the acu and herbs are a big commitment and its just so so discouraging when you don't get any (noticeable) returns. I really do believe in TCM but its just getting the right practitioner i think....I'm not convinced with my one at the mo!

its good she changed what points she is using...i hope they help with your skin. I have been breaking out left right and centre and only used to get them a few days before AF due but now its throughout the month. 

I too get cramping feelings around ovaries and uterus post acu and like to think its the blood rushing to the area which can only be a good thing during the 2WW (I hope!).


----------



## Briss

I love back massages and a gentle rubbing! 

Just before O I can get aroused by just about anything, the other day I saw two guys kissing and got a "boner" so before O I am a very easy target. I am very pleased with how my hormones work - I am always up for it during the week leading to O, but as soon as I O, it all goes away and I have to make an effort if we want to BD.

pulses are so complex, I am still trying to understand the basics :)

I am thinking of changing my practitioner but this one was recommended to me by a friend, so not sure how to go about it. 

My ovaries were so quiet today, I did not feel them but after acu they are back to being so sensitive almost painful. I so hope it's just the blood rushing to the area


----------



## Blythe

Briss said:


> I love back massages and a gentle rubbing!
> 
> Just before O I can get aroused by just about anything, the other day I saw two guys kissing and got a "boner" so before O I am a very easy target. I am very pleased with how my hormones work - I am always up for it during the week leading to O, but as soon as I O, it all goes away and I have to make an effort if we want to BD.
> 
> pulses are so complex, I am still trying to understand the basics :)
> 
> I am thinking of changing my practitioner but this one was recommended to me by a friend, so not sure how to go about it.
> 
> My ovaries were so quiet today, I did not feel them but after acu they are back to being so sensitive almost painful. I so hope it's just the blood rushing to the area

Thats brilliant....made me laugh out loud:thumbup:

For ages I've had no sex drive so im thrilled i almost O during my acu session...felt like my old self again!!:winkwink:

You must do whatever is right for you....it difficult if you have had a personal recommendation but all you say (if pushed) is that you thought she was great but either it wasn't working for you or you have found someone closer to where you live.


----------



## Briss

I got a mild tummy pain after acu but it gets stronger by a minute, and i do not think it's my ovaries looks like my guts or liver or smth, it's more on the right side, i hope it's not appendicitis ... but i cant even touch my tummy or move without feeling some sort of discomfort and mind pain. may be I should not have gone for such a strong electric this time. I also got a bit of a temperature. not great


----------



## Blythe

Ive never had electrics on my needles.....
See how you feeling the morning..if its still hurting call your acu clinic for advice as it shouldn't cause you pain, particularly if getting worse.:nope:

My ovaries feel like they are on fire now but its not really painful.


----------



## Briss

I cant even understand what's causing all this, I wonder if it is just muscles? needles are supposed to be only muscle deep so may be electrics toned them up like after exercising or something. My Dh is so upset, he does not believe in acu and think I got desperate and entrusted my health into charlatans' hands who are going to harm. I should not have told him I went to the clinic today cos I am not even sure it's connected. maybe it's all this ginger I've been drinking burning my guts :(


----------



## FireBaby

Briss the cramps/pain you are getting could be implantation related....just a thought....


----------



## Blythe

Firebaby could be right....or perhaps it is a reaction to the electric stimulation. I hope you get some sleep tonight and please try not too worry. Update me in the morning.

My dh thinks I'm a fool for spending ££ on this but tuff!


----------



## Briss

Thank you ladies for your support!! I really appreciate it! 

implantation is always at the back of my mind being half way through TWW :) but it's just a different type of pain. I can only compare it to the pain I had after my abdominal surgery a few years ago. they removed a very large tumour and for a week after I could not even walk straight, every breath was painful. I have something similar but on a lesser scale, every step resonates inside my tummy but mainly on the right side.


----------



## Briss

morning ladies,

either I am feeling better today or I am getting used to this pain but in any case I am much happier than last night. I think it was mainly stomach pain but in combination with my right ovary and low back pain, all together seemed like a lot of pain. Decided to skip vitamins and herbs today and just eat neutral stuff like porridge, in case it was caused by something I ate.


----------



## Blythe

Hi Briss

Thats good...glad you are feeling better. I think it's a good idea to leave the tablets alone today....does this mean no chocolate too?

I have to say your chart is looking particularly good....


----------



## Briss

I have to admit I had a bit of a binge this weekend, at least 5-6 cakes/pastries a day&#8230; which might be to blame for my condition. I still feel a bit shaky so not sure I want any chocolate, although I had hot chocolate on my way to work this morning,,,, oh well. 

My temp is a little weird but I am happy it seems to be going up again not further down. But I am going to stop obsessing and over analysing it. it does not matter. the only thing I am going to look for is LH of over 15 days and a cycle of over 29 days, which does not happen to me so could be a good sign. I will ignore (well, try to) all other symptom, it's just heart-breaking when your symptoms look good and then you get a BFN/AF. 

Is anyone going to celebrate Chinese new year? 9 Feb. is Chinese new year's eve. I think I will try to get my DH to a Chinese restaurant to celebrate the occasion. since I am now into all things Chinese. he might be annoyed but he likes Chinese food.


----------



## Blythe

I hadn't intended to do anything for chinese new years although i don't work too far away from china town so may pop over there and check out the dragons and get myself a nice massage whilst I'm there:thumbup:

Just given DH another l-arginine to pump him up for tonight. I was looking on ebay earlier and came across some penis enlarger tablets (as you do)...i wasn't looking for them but just seeing what crap fertility stuff is being sold. These particular ones look quite good actually and apparently provide lots of sperm and, i quote, "Erections like steel" and even suggests they can make a man "Ejaculate like a porn star" [I'm slightly aroused even typing this!] and to top it off it's an "excellent multi-vitamin"....


----------



## Briss

these tablets sound awfully good, what are they? and what are the ingredients? 

I urgently need to come up with a plan for the next cycle, my AF is due at the end of the week and I feel I will be crashed. I already decided that I will not be continuing herbs. shame to give up acu, it's so cheap in my current place but my right ovary is killing me, it's always so sensitive after acu it just feels like it's hanging by a thread and about to fall off or something. maybe I will try some other place. I think i may not need to have only reproductive points stimulated, maybe some other doc would find other points to needle which will have better effect. Also, i think I'll start ginseng from CD1.


----------



## Blythe

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Volume-P...t=UK_Health_HealthCare_RL&hash=item35bcb6ee55

Theres others with better pictures!

You sound determined....you must go with your gut feeling. I think using the advice set out in the pitchford book can help us choose the right foods/drinks which have similar actions as the herbs...i suppose the herbs are more direct but i think food and maybe the yoga/self administerd fertility massage can help alot but its just the self discipline involved which worries me.

but if you are not getting much from it i think its time for a break or change. Im going to give my one another 5 week package worth of treatment then think about the institute of chinese medicine.

Just been informed that dh is too tired to bd tonight.....:nope:


----------



## Blythe

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Male-Pen...ns_Supplements&var&hash=item3a7d2e0400&_uhb=1

This ones better....has ingredients


----------



## Briss

impressive list! but actually I give most of the ingredients to my DH, I just buy them separately. before I need my DH to BD i give him 5 g of arginine quite often it works :) although looking at your temp you may have ovulated already. does not mean you cant enjoy yourself though


----------



## MalaMae

Short feedback for the "placenta hominis" :) - I've never had sooooo much eggwhite mucus!!! OMG! An ombudance of mucus!!! Had to wear thin pads for couple of days :)

I hope that it did some other good things in there, so I didn't drink that gross powder only for mucus :)


----------



## FireBaby

No way! Yay for the placenta tablets!!


----------



## MalaMae

FireBaby said:


> No way! Yay for the placenta tablets!!

I wish it was tablets :) It would have been SO much easier. I had to take powder :dohh::wacko:


----------



## Blythe

MalaMae said:


> Short feedback for the "placenta hominis" :) - I've never had sooooo much eggwhite mucus!!! OMG! An ombudance of mucus!!! Had to wear thin pads for couple of days :)
> 
> I hope that it did some other good things in there, so I didn't drink that gross powder only for mucus :)

excellent news...I want some now!!


----------



## Blythe

Briss - Hows your ovaries?

I managed to BD at 4.30am this morning and told DH on way to work that i would also require his services tomorrow morning. He looked quite sad when i told him this so probably wont happen. Im exhausted anyhow...always am around fertile time as always stressing about getting the BD in at the right time and therefore not sleeping.

I expect to get a temp rise tomorrow and feel i may have ovulated late yesterday but could have been today also....so probably no point in BD tomorrow.

Have been taking these keto-7 tablets and they [or maybe its something else] have really given me a mental lift...i actually feel quite positive about stuff...


----------



## Briss

MalaMae, powder sounds awful but great results! fingers crossed it'll do its magic. 

Blythe, my stomach and other tummy bits are back to their normal self but my right ovary is still sensitive.

Your poor DH, well done for 4.30 am BD! the only way I can get my DH to BD at that time is just ride him while he is still sleeping&#8230; If possible it would still be good to get another BD session in but I think you've covered your basis pretty well for this cycle 

I am seriously thinking about your keto-7 tablets I cant feel positive about anything and have not been able to for a while&#8230;


----------



## Blythe

Im reading a book called the tao of fertility....its ok some useful bits in it....will post some of the more useful titbits later.

FF has my ovulation before i got LH surge so i guess they got that wrong...will hopefully correct itself in a couple of days. No BD this am and im getting ovulation like pains :nope::growlmad:


----------



## Briss

you missed one day so it makes it difficult for FF to pinpoint O, You probably O yesterday but I guess we'll just have to wait a few days. 

Looks like an interesting book, I've accumulated the whole library of fertility books and with a section on Chinese medicine&#8230; I am actually beginning to think that TCM works better for those who have no idea how it works but just have a faith that's going to work.


----------



## Briss

I also read this book https://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Fertil...85112/ref=pd_luc_sim_01_02_t_lh?ie=UTF8&psc=1
The Fertility Plan: A proven three-month programme to help you conceive naturally it's also based on Chinese teaching, I did not like it at first but after I read some other books I actually began to understand it more. She has a section of FSH results for example, which really explains how it is not indicative of your fertility (which I now know after spending hours and hours researching this issue) so I started to trust this book a little more


----------



## Blythe

yeah there are some good bits in that book....i remember the sunday times sunday style magazine did a double spread on her, her practice and this book...its set out all the different types...I'm 'tired'. The recommendations are pretty sensible...i started taking the royal jelly, wheatgrass, l-arginine as a result of this book. Although her recommendation re vitex/chaste berry were off for me as i did not like that herb at all. she has a section of fertility massage which i have yet to incorporate. Quite frankly i cannot be arsed...its enough to remember to take all supplements, try not too stress out and breath properly etc etc 

had period pains all morning so expect that is ovulation or [hopefully] post ovulation pains.

Your temps look good...hope this is your cycle:thumbup:


----------



## Briss

I am between "tired" and "stuck", it must be just a name that relate to deficiencies in TCM?

I am happy with my post O temp apart from that dip in the middle, not sure what it was all about, I had something similar a few cycles back it dipped down below the cover line for a few days and then went back up again. I am so hoping for at a longer cycle, i mean BFP would be preferable but I am 2-3 days from AF and I can sort of feel its unwelcome presence.


----------



## alison29

Blythe said:


> Im reading a book called the tao of fertility....its ok some useful bits in it....will post some of the more useful titbits later.
> 
> FF has my ovulation before i got LH surge so i guess they got that wrong...will hopefully correct itself in a couple of days. No BD this am and im getting ovulation like pains :nope::growlmad:

So you got an opk positive on cd 10 or so and did not o until 17 wow..I have talked to some other women and they say they too have the wettest days way earlier then act ov..That can really mess a girl up think well tons of cm must be anyday now an d relaly its a week off.


----------



## Blythe

Briss said:


> I am between "tired" and "stuck", it must be just a name that relate to deficiencies in TCM?
> 
> I am happy with my post O temp apart from that dip in the middle, not sure what it was all about, I had something similar a few cycles back it dipped down below the cover line for a few days and then went back up again. I am so hoping for at a longer cycle, i mean BFP would be preferable but I am 2-3 days from AF and I can sort of feel its unwelcome presence.

Yeah i reckon so...its quite smart of her really as it makes it all so much more accessible. The tired one is for those of us with kidney yang deficiency IMO but happy to be corrected on this. Not sure about the stuck one though.

i have been getting really strong period pains...you know that sort of heat you get around your uterus area just before your period comes. I only ovulated a couple of days ago and ive been getting it quite strong so i guess it is something to do with ovulation. Do you get ovulation pains/cramping?


----------



## Blythe

alison29 said:


> Blythe said:
> 
> 
> Im reading a book called the tao of fertility....its ok some useful bits in it....will post some of the more useful titbits later.
> 
> FF has my ovulation before i got LH surge so i guess they got that wrong...will hopefully correct itself in a couple of days. No BD this am and im getting ovulation like pains :nope::growlmad:
> 
> So you got an opk positive on cd 10 or so and did not o until 17 wow..I have talked to some other women and they say they too have the wettest days way earlier then act ov..That can really mess a girl up think well tons of cm must be anyday now an d relaly its a week off.Click to expand...

im hoping FF will correct itself on the O day tomorrow when i enter my temp as ive never ovulated as early as its saying now and i only got my LH surge after so it just does not make sense. Still back to the CM question...i always get loads just about 3 days after period has finished and then for a few days drying up a few days before ovulation....very frustrating!! i use conceive plus to help out though. To be honest im sure i would have been pregnant by now if we had more sex....we manage an average of 3 times around ovulation if lucky.....hoping all my supps and treatments will give me a BFP. I have just started 7-keto DHEA and i have to say so far so good. I feel much more lively and have some get and go back in my life and its only been a few days on the sups.

hows everything going for you alison?


----------



## Briss

Blythe, I only get ovarian pains during ovulation and sometimes in TWW, usually on one side but since I started acu my right ovary seems to be always in some sort of pain. I only get cramping during or just before AF like today :( btw nice temp spike


----------



## alison29

I go back and forth about the not enough bd, because of course my SIL got knocked up having bd once that entire month. What i really want is to get in the mid week bed i just dont' know how to motivate either one of us...

As for me right now I am feeding my dh L arginine 3 gs a day on empty stomach first thing in morning. I am taking it too on empty stomach with carb drink. I got AF a couple days ago and am waiting on records transfer from old clinic (could take 10-4 days)so my new dr can use them to try and get my Lap covered by insurance..After the transefer of records i should be able to sched the lap pretty quick the nurses said they are on it.


----------



## Blythe

Briss said:


> Blythe, I only get ovarian pains during ovulation and sometimes in TWW, usually on one side but since I started acu my right ovary seems to be always in some sort of pain. I only get cramping during or just before AF like today :( btw nice temp spike

I hope so much that this will your month.....its those last few days before AF is due that i find the hardest to deal with. When do your herbs run out?


----------



## Blythe

alison29 said:


> I go back and forth about the not enough bd, because of course my SIL got knocked up having bd once that entire month. What i really want is to get in the mid week bed i just dont' know how to motivate either one of us...
> 
> As for me right now I am feeding my dh L arginine 3 gs a day on empty stomach first thing in morning. I am taking it too on empty stomach with carb drink. I got AF a couple days ago and am waiting on records transfer from old clinic (could take 10-4 days)so my new dr can use them to try and get my Lap covered by insurance..After the transefer of records i should be able to sched the lap pretty quick the nurses said they are on it.

Mid week BDing is hard work if you are both working....too tired at night then rushing around in the morning (with not enough time for cushion under bum routine). :growlmad:for AF lets hope the arginine works its magic. The pills i have are 500mg and are huge so only manage to get DH to take 2 around ovulation time...will try to up next month and see if it helps.

Hope you get the lap sorted soon...i want one but will have to wait for referral following my appt. with FS on 6 march


----------



## Briss

Blythe, I cant agree more, these last few days before AF are just dreadful, I get my hopes up and down several times a day. had such terrible cramping today that I was sure AF would show up any moment now, was very upsetting cos it's still too early I am hoping for at least 25 days. am planning to go for reflexology next week to ease the pain if AF comes.

Arginine caps are huge and I give my DH around 6 (500 each). I also increase his maca intake around my O

I still have a couple of weeks of herbs


----------



## Blythe

Briss said:


> Blythe, I cant agree more, these last few days before AF are just dreadful, I get my hopes up and down several times a day. had such terrible cramping today that I was sure AF would show up any moment now, was very upsetting cos it's still too early I am hoping for at least 25 days. am planning to go for reflexology next week to ease the pain if AF comes.
> 
> Arginine caps are huge and I give my DH around 6 (500 each). I also increase his maca intake around my O
> 
> I still have a couple of weeks of herbs


Im not sure i could get DH to take 6 tablets on top of the others...although if i threaten IVF he may comply. 

reflexology is great...ive only had it twice in my life though. I am a qualified massage therapist [although have never practiced as one] and have been seriously thinking about getting a qualification in reflexology and maybe looking at other types of massage which can help with fertility. I have one of these foot massage machines [https://www.amazon.co.uk/HoMedics-F...WDI/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1359741769&sr=8-5] and i have to say i use it a couple of times a week along with a basic back massager [https://www.amazon.co.uk/HoMedics-S...rugstore&ie=UTF8&qid=1359741796&sr=1-21]....i sleep like ive been out doing hard labour all day...its great. 

im going to acu on tues night then im going to leave it for a couple of weeks as I'm going to stop going when AF here...give my body a break from herbs and try to make this all a bit more affordable.

i see your temp has gone down a little today....i hope with all my heart AF stays away for you.


----------



## Briss

Blythe, your temp looks great! mine started to go down, I do not usually temp on weekends unless it's around O I cant be bothered to wake up early for that. but even without temp I can feel AF is gearing up, at this point I am just grateful for every day that it does not show up

I love reflexology, I wish I could make my DH learn it and then give me massages every day :) unfortunately he has feet phobia whatever it is called he cant stand a sight of bear feet :( 

your foot massage machine and back massager look very tempting. are they good? certainly not expensive. how do they work?

I had no idea you were a qualified massage therapist! wow, that's great! why did you get this qualification? to practice or just for your general understanding?


----------



## MalaMae

Oh dear God, just when I thought I'm done with the dried placenta, I got another round of it :nope: Another 7 days, 2 times daily :sick:

Massage? Sounds amazing. I'm dreaming of this: https://www.amazon.ca/Osaki-OS-4000...96/ref=sr_1_16?ie=UTF8&qid=1359755116&sr=8-16
Tried one for 10 min and thought I'm in heaven :thumbup:


----------



## Blythe

alison29 said:


> I go back and forth about the not enough bd, because of course my SIL got knocked up having bd once that entire month. What i really want is to get in the mid week bed i just dont' know how to motivate either one of us...
> 
> As for me right now I am feeding my dh L arginine 3 gs a day on empty stomach first thing in morning. I am taking it too on empty stomach with carb drink. I got AF a couple days ago and am waiting on records transfer from old clinic (could take 10-4 days)so my new dr can use them to try and get my Lap covered by insurance..After the transefer of records i should be able to sched the lap pretty quick the nurses said they are on it.

Notrusty (43 yo currently pregnant and full of great advice) drew my attention to following report...see bottom of page 27....think I'm going to knock l-arginine on head unless i see something fabulous in its favour pretty soon.

https://igitur-archive.library.uu.nl/...11/boomsma.pdf


----------



## Blythe

MalaMae said:


> Oh dear God, just when I thought I'm done with the dried placenta, I got another round of it :nope: Another 7 days, 2 times daily :sick:
> 
> Massage? Sounds amazing. I'm dreaming of this: https://www.amazon.ca/Osaki-OS-4000...96/ref=sr_1_16?ie=UTF8&qid=1359755116&sr=8-16
> Tried one for 10 min and thought I'm in heaven :thumbup:

Oh no....squeeze your nose and think of two blue lines....it seems to have had a good effect so far. I would guzzle dried poo if it got me a BFP. Thank god its not in its undried form:winkwink:

That chair is truly the ugliest looking piece of furniture i have seen in years...but if i had the cash i would defo have one. Imagine having a lovely massage each evening when you cone in from work...heavenly! I saw one of those recently at a weekend exhibition event and i went to sit in it and he said it was £5 for 10 minutes...daylight robbery!


----------



## Blythe

Briss said:


> Blythe, your temp looks great! mine started to go down, I do not usually temp on weekends unless it's around O I cant be bothered to wake up early for that. but even without temp I can feel AF is gearing up, at this point I am just grateful for every day that it does not show up
> 
> I love reflexology, I wish I could make my DH learn it and then give me massages every day :) unfortunately he has feet phobia whatever it is called he cant stand a sight of bear feet :(
> 
> your foot massage machine and back massager look very tempting. are they good? certainly not expensive. how do they work?
> 
> I had no idea you were a qualified massage therapist! wow, that's great! why did you get this qualification? to practice or just for your general understanding?


A few years ago i really wanted to go back to uni and do Chinese medicine...i was sort of obsessed with the idea for a year or two but just couldn't make it work financially (should have taken the leap and I'm sure everything would have worked out). I decided to do a year long course in massage and anatomy and physiology which i could fit in around work. I loved it but would not want to practice professionally doing body massages...if i did do something along those lines if want to do something quite specialised.

I temped vaginally today for first time ever and git much higher temps...its going to throw this months chart out a bit but thats ok...

The foot massager in particular is great....there are better ones on the market but you can pick these ones up on eBay for peanuts. The little balls go around in opposite directions and really give the bottom of your feet a strong massage. You can apply more pressure and i can feel the little lumps and bumps get massaged away I feel so relaxed afterwards. Its something I've brought that has made a difference. The back one less so but its quite nice nonetheless.


----------



## Briss

Blythe said:


> alison29 said:
> 
> 
> I go back and forth about the not enough bd, because of course my SIL got knocked up having bd once that entire month. What i really want is to get in the mid week bed i just dont' know how to motivate either one of us...
> 
> As for me right now I am feeding my dh L arginine 3 gs a day on empty stomach first thing in morning. I am taking it too on empty stomach with carb drink. I got AF a couple days ago and am waiting on records transfer from old clinic (could take 10-4 days)so my new dr can use them to try and get my Lap covered by insurance..After the transefer of records i should be able to sched the lap pretty quick the nurses said they are on it.
> 
> Notrusty (43 yo currently pregnant and full of great advice) drew my attention to following report...see bottom of page 27....think I'm going to knock l-arginine on head unless i see something fabulous in its favour pretty soon.
> 
> https://igitur-archive.library.uu.nl/...11/boomsma.pdfClick to expand...

Blythe can you please re-send the link I cant open it. really want to know about arginine, I've been praying on it last few months ...


----------



## Briss

I've never temped vaginally but they say you get steadier temps that way. 

I would be interested in doing Chinese medicine, although with my current hours it's just not possible. most of my free time goes into fertility studies...

afm, temp dropped quite low, cramps - AF is almost here likely today but I am still hoping i may hold it in until tomorrow to get a 25 day cycle. have been crying all day but that's my normal reaction to AF approaching, it does look like IVF is our only chance. but I hate the idea so much...

re foot massager, one of the reviews says that if you press on it it stops rotating. is this true? I think I would need a very strong massage to feel anything my feet are quite hard


----------



## Blythe

Briss said:


> Blythe said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> alison29 said:
> 
> 
> I go back and forth about the not enough bd, because of course my SIL got knocked up having bd once that entire month. What i really want is to get in the mid week bed i just dont' know how to motivate either one of us...
> 
> As for me right now I am feeding my dh L arginine 3 gs a day on empty stomach first thing in morning. I am taking it too on empty stomach with carb drink. I got AF a couple days ago and am waiting on records transfer from old clinic (could take 10-4 days)so my new dr can use them to try and get my Lap covered by insurance..After the transefer of records i should be able to sched the lap pretty quick the nurses said they are on it.
> 
> Notrusty (43 yo currently pregnant and full of great advice) drew my attention to following report...see bottom of page 27....think I'm going to knock l-arginine on head unless i see something fabulous in its favour pretty soon.
> 
> https://igitur-archive.library.uu.nl/...11/boomsma.pdfClick to expand...
> 
> Blythe can you please re-send the link I cant open it. really want to know about arginine, I've been praying on it last few months ...Click to expand...

https://igitur-archive.library.uu.nl/dissertations/2009-0406-200411/boomsma.pdf

Hope this works but if not see the post called 


Over 40 Natural BFP with DHEA CoQ10 Vitex Black Cohosh Low AMH


In over 35s

Its ok for men but this study seems to suggest not so great for women...it will make more sense if you check notrusyyet post one frm bottom


----------



## Blythe

Briss said:


> I've never temped vaginally but they say you get steadier temps that way.
> 
> I would be interested in doing Chinese medicine, although with my current hours it's just not possible. most of my free time goes into fertility studies...
> 
> afm, temp dropped quite low, cramps - AF is almost here likely today but I am still hoping i may hold it in until tomorrow to get a 25 day cycle. have been crying all day but that's my normal reaction to AF approaching, it does look like IVF is our only chance. but I hate the idea so much...
> 
> re foot massager, one of the reviews says that if you press on it it stops rotating. is this true? I think I would need a very strong massage to feel anything my feet are quite hard


Has she turned up yet? Im so sorry this is taking you so long to get your BFP...this is such a heartbreaking experience to go through. This can be enormously stressful and to do this month after month (with all those treatments and supps and research) takes its toll. Im sorry that you have been crying all day :hugs: get it all out and then try to focus on that next egg. 

How about making an appt to discuss a natural round of IVF...i know you want to avoid a regular IVF and i don't blame you but I've read about create and it sounds like a great place.

Im using my foot massager now and with socks in I'm pressing quite hard and they don't stop...perhaps the reviewer had their socks off. I tend to put a fair bit of pressure on and get a nice strong massage.

:hugs: and I'm sorry this has been a sad day for you


----------



## Briss

I had a bit of brown spotting in the evening, still praying the full flow will wait past midnight so I could put tomorrow as CD 1. feeling like i am cheating but somehow having 25 rather than 24 day cycle gives me a sense of normality. DH took me to see Manet at the RAA and then we went to this japanese sweets shop nearby to try their things, really weird stuff :) I put it down as cultural experience, anyway I stopped crying and ready to face the inevitable. Bring on our Feb BFPs! After some consideration decided to go for acu tomorrow, I wonder if she still going to needle tummy points on CD1.

I think I will wait for hubby's sperm test and then depending on the outcome will make a decision of what we are doing next.

your temp looks better and better! fingers crossed :)


----------



## Blythe

I love the RAA building...what a nice treat! i work in whitehall so sometimes go the NPG at lunch to wonder around.

Perhaps its ok to place needles in tummy at very beginning of cycle as it encourages blood to area and it will help shed lining. My acu man said he wanted to avoid extending period but I'm not going for acu when bleeding anymore.

Hope your day is ok :flower:


----------



## Blythe

Blythe said:


> Briss said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Blythe said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> alison29 said:
> 
> 
> I go back and forth about the not enough bd, because of course my SIL got knocked up having bd once that entire month. What i really want is to get in the mid week bed i just dont' know how to motivate either one of us...
> 
> As for me right now I am feeding my dh L arginine 3 gs a day on empty stomach first thing in morning. I am taking it too on empty stomach with carb drink. I got AF a couple days ago and am waiting on records transfer from old clinic (could take 10-4 days)so my new dr can use them to try and get my Lap covered by insurance..After the transefer of records i should be able to sched the lap pretty quick the nurses said they are on it.
> 
> Notrusty (43 yo currently pregnant and full of great advice) drew my attention to following report...see bottom of page 27....think I'm going to knock l-arginine on head unless i see something fabulous in its favour pretty soon.
> 
> https://igitur-archive.library.uu.nl/...11/boomsma.pdfClick to expand...
> 
> Blythe can you please re-send the link I cant open it. really want to know about arginine, I've been praying on it last few months ...Click to expand...
> 
> https://igitur-archive.library.uu.nl/dissertations/2009-0406-200411/boomsma.pdf
> 
> Hope this works but if not see the post called
> 
> 
> Over 40 Natural BFP with DHEA CoQ10 Vitex Black Cohosh Low AMH
> 
> 
> In over 35s
> 
> Its ok for men but this study seems to suggest not so great for women...it will make more sense if you check notrusyyet post one frm bottomClick to expand...

Ps it a pdf...not sure if that is effecting ability to open


----------



## Briss

AF is here :(

I managed to open the pdf but could not locate the relevant bit. I did a bit a googling and apparently there was one study that showed arginine having a negative effect on female fertility. Was it this study that you were referring to? I could not get hold of the study itself yet.

Found a few new grey hairs this morning :( depressing. hubby says it's because I cry far too much but I am afraid it might be because I age prematurely, would explain high FSH though


----------



## Blythe

Briss said:


> AF is here :(
> 
> I managed to open the pdf but could not locate the relevant bit. I did a bit a googling and apparently there was one study that showed arginine having a negative effect on female fertility. Was it this study that you were referring to? I could not get hold of the study itself yet.
> 
> Found a few new grey hairs this morning :( depressing. hubby says it's because I cry far too much but I am afraid it might be because I age prematurely, would explain high FSH though

https://babyandbump.momtastic.com/t...-evening-primrose-oil-progesterone-cream.html

Its on last page of this thread.....notrusyyets advice sets it in context as i dont think the report mentions l-arginine specifically. Ive only read that small bit of it..

Sorry AF is here but everything crossed for a BFP in the next couple of months.


----------



## Briss

Blythe, thanks! I finally get it, I did not know that L-arginine is converted in the body into nitric oxide. I did take arginine in TWW last couple of cycles so may be I should stay away from it too for a while.

Canceled my acu appointment today, metropolitan line's not working and did not feel like going through a set of bus replacement services to get to Uxbridge, it's so cozy at home it's CD 1 I just want to stay in and sulk 

I started getting grey hair in my early 20s but last few years it's just got out of control. I have to dye my hair more often cos after 3-4 weeks these grey hair become so visible...


----------



## Briss

My DH always makes fun of my tummy and I know I look slightly pregnant. I am not really fat but because I have no muscles on my tummy it just sort of sticks out...


----------



## alison29

HI Guys!,

I read this mornign about l arginine helping to increase blood to ovaries in older women and this beign a great thing. I don't know I will try to open the new link you sent. I have just started taking iron supps, my nails are brittle and i think this is why. I have been avoiding red meats because of hte endo thing and so probably reall deficient. This can effect ovulation too.


----------



## alison29

Briss said:


> My DH always makes fun of my tummy and I know I look slightly pregnant. I am not really fat but because I have no muscles on my tummy it just sort of sticks out...

I know what you mean about the bottom part of tummy. When i weighed about ten poulds less i did not have it i think this is where my fat likes to settle. I was way too skinny before now i am at a "healthy" weight. Yeah my dh has asked me if i am pregnant and hiding it from him , nice right? 

Another good thing about the l arginine is it says to help convert fat to muscle..


----------



## Briss

There is plenty of research confirming arginine's positive properties but there is also one that showed it can have negative effect. I will continue giving plenty to my DH but will stay away from it for a few cycles. I am back on EPO and iron this cycle.

Alison, what iron supps are you taking? I am taking Spatone Iron Sachets shttp://www.boots.com/en/Spatone-Iron-Sachets-28_4933/

I wish men could be a little more sensitive and stop noticing things that are wrong with us


----------



## MalaMae

Blythe, thanks for the article. Gave me good insight of the whole process of implantation.
Who knew something small as "oligosaccharides" can affect implantation and it can be found naturally in some vegetables_. _This is what I found online_:
"...found naturally in Jerusalem artichoke, burdock, chicory, leek, onion and asparagus. 
...Carrots are an excellent source of oligosaccharides but only after they have been cooked for an hour. This cooking breaks down the starches into the shorter chains needed for bioavailability. (Moro soup, invented by Dr Ernst Moro in Germany in 1908 has been used for decades to treat bacterial infections in humans and farm animals. This soup not only prevents the bacteria from attaching to the intestinal wall, but also prevents bacteria from reproducing, according to DW TV.)"_


----------



## Blythe

Malamae thats great...thanks for info. I made a soup earlier tonight with veg stock, onions, carrots, lentils and left it to slow cook for well over an hour so that is well timed as if i was going to implant it would be next few days.


----------



## MalaMae

Blythe, nice temps!!!!! What a rise, 37 C! The acupuncture I guess works nicely :) Saw your previous and you have nice steady rise.
I have higher temps than usually too. My DH is convinced that I'm already pregnant :)


----------



## Blythe

Malamae they look great dont they but its a little misleading as I started temping vaginally a few days ago so they are higher than oral temps....and he rise could be due to the fact that I'm ill &#55357;&#56873; I always thought if I was pregnant then the rise would really kick in post implantation. Lovely temps for you. Everything crossed for a bfp &#55357;&#56397;&#55357;&#56911;&#55357;&#56911;


----------



## MalaMae

Thanks Blythe, they're quite higher than the usual :)
Booo, I thought you may be actually pregnant this time :( It'll happen.
Do you think that vaginal temps are more correct than the other way?


----------



## FireBaby

I switched to v temps 2 cycles ago - what I'm noticing is I get less weird spikes or drops in my temps they seem to be more consistent day to day which makes it easier to pick up when there's a real spike after Ov....definitely they are overall higher than when I was taking oral temps.....


----------



## Blythe

I took my temp V and it was 37 and orally it was just 36.5 so quite a difference....im going to stick with it as its easier and im no longer concerned re low temps and also encouraged by firebabys words.

I have just returned from acu and my doc said something incomprehensible at the end which was translated by his assistant who said to try to have sex around ovulation.......i reminded them i had been ttc for over 2 years so had a pretty good idea about that one! Anyhow, they then explained that im ready now as my circulation around womb etc is good....this cheered me up no end although maybe im out this cycle if he says to go for it next ovulation time......to be honest if i was guaranteed a bfp in the next few months i dont mind going without this one. 

I told my dh who said at least i dont hAve to go anymore....i said i had two sessions left of this treatment cycle and he said ask for money back as he thinks im throwing my money away. we also had massive argument before i went as he says im obsessed with ttc and mope around moaning....how dare he! Of course he is right but it really p'd me off...i need his support not observations.


----------



## alison29

I don't think my iron supps are very good just picked up at super market and not seeing any dif in nails I will try out yours next. it has been only a week on them though


----------



## notrustyyet

MalaMae said:


> Blythe, thanks for the article. Gave me good insight of the whole process of implantation.
> Who knew something small as "oligosaccharides" can affect implantation and it can be found naturally in some vegetables_. _This is what I found online_:
> "...found naturally in Jerusalem artichoke, burdock, chicory, leek, onion and asparagus.
> ...Carrots are an excellent source of oligosaccharides but only after they have been cooked for an hour. This cooking breaks down the starches into the shorter chains needed for bioavailability. (Moro soup, invented by Dr Ernst Moro in Germany in 1908 has been used for decades to treat bacterial infections in humans and farm animals. This soup not only prevents the bacteria from attaching to the intestinal wall, but also prevents bacteria from reproducing, according to DW TV.)"_

Wow, didn't know this but sometime. maybe 1/2 way? in my TTC journey started eating a lot more soup/stews after reading Inconceivable and Infertility Cure. Pressure cooked beef lentil especially with lots of carrots/leeks. Also really upped my asparagus intake, once I found those giant bags at Costco, great price...


----------



## notrustyyet

Briss said:


> AF is here :(
> 
> I managed to open the pdf but could not locate the relevant bit. I did a bit a googling and apparently there was one study that showed arginine having a negative effect on female fertility. Was it this study that you were referring to? I could not get hold of the study itself yet.
> 
> Found a few new grey hairs this morning :( depressing. hubby says it's because I cry far too much but I am afraid it might be because I age prematurely, would explain high FSH though

https://igitur-archive.library.uu.nl/...11/boomsma.pdf

You have to go to Chapter 2.1, What Can Clinician Do to Improve Implantation, go to bottom of pg 27, "Adjuvant Pharmaceutical therapies" after aspirin is discussed, they discuss L-Arginine (=Nitric Oxide Donor) The article is highly technical, but I can read it along with the fertility MD right? Have to admit I became quite OCD during my TTC journey!


----------



## MalaMae

notrustyyet said:


> MalaMae said:
> 
> 
> Blythe, thanks for the article. Gave me good insight of the whole process of implantation.
> Who knew something small as "oligosaccharides" can affect implantation and it can be found naturally in some vegetables_. _This is what I found online_:
> "...found naturally in Jerusalem artichoke, burdock, chicory, leek, onion and asparagus.
> ...Carrots are an excellent source of oligosaccharides but only after they have been cooked for an hour. This cooking breaks down the starches into the shorter chains needed for bioavailability. (Moro soup, invented by Dr Ernst Moro in Germany in 1908 has been used for decades to treat bacterial infections in humans and farm animals. This soup not only prevents the bacteria from attaching to the intestinal wall, but also prevents bacteria from reproducing, according to DW TV.)"_
> 
> Wow, didn't know this but sometime. maybe 1/2 way? in my TTC journey started eating a lot more soup/stews after reading Inconceivable and Infertility Cure. Pressure cooked beef lentil especially with lots of carrots/leeks. Also really upped my asparagus intake, once I found those giant bags at Costco, great price...Click to expand...

Congrats on your pregnancy! It's so encouraging to read your story :)

I think sometimes when we crave some food, our bodies are trying to tell us something, like me- I'm always craving chicken and vegetable soup; and raw leek. I wouldn't say that for the chocolate- I think I'm more addidcted to that then craving :haha:


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## Briss

MalaMae, lovely temp! high and steady. I am craving chocolate, so badly&#8230; not a day goes by without going though quite a few bars. For some reason it's so rare that I'd crave any food, if I could just live on chocolate I do not think I'd even bother with food, I do not enjoy it that much


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## MalaMae

Briss said:


> MalaMae, lovely temp! high and steady. I am craving chocolate, so badly not a day goes by without going though quite a few bars. For some reason it's so rare that I'd crave any food, if I could just live on chocolate I do not think I'd even bother with food, I do not enjoy it that much

Thanks Briss. I've never had temos like this!! I'm scared to be hopefull :huh:[-o<
I feel the same about the chocolate.


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## Blythe

Briss said:


> MalaMae, lovely temp! high and steady. I am craving chocolate, so badly not a day goes by without going though quite a few bars. For some reason it's so rare that I'd crave any food, if I could just live on chocolate I do not think I'd even bother with food, I do not enjoy it that much

Briss....how are you? :flower:


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## Blythe

MalaMae said:


> Briss said:
> 
> 
> MalaMae, lovely temp! high and steady. I am craving chocolate, so badly not a day goes by without going though quite a few bars. For some reason it's so rare that I'd crave any food, if I could just live on chocolate I do not think I'd even bother with food, I do not enjoy it that much
> 
> Thanks Briss. I've never had temos like this!! I'm scared to be hopefull :huh:[-o<
> I feel the same about the chocolate.Click to expand...

Malamae do you have any symptoms yet?


----------



## MalaMae

Blythe said:


> MalaMae said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Briss said:
> 
> 
> MalaMae, lovely temp! high and steady. I am craving chocolate, so badly not a day goes by without going though quite a few bars. For some reason it's so rare that I'd crave any food, if I could just live on chocolate I do not think I'd even bother with food, I do not enjoy it that much
> 
> Thanks Briss. I've never had temos like this!! I'm scared to be hopefull :huh:[-o<
> I feel the same about the chocolate.Click to expand...
> 
> Malamae do you have any symptoms yet?Click to expand...

Well since O my breasts have been tender and just before and on 6 DPO I felt tingling in uterus area. But now, nothing much. Maybe I'm not pregnant or maybe I am but maybe I'm one of those that won't have any symptoms.
A lot of maybes :)
We'll see tomorrow if temp drops. :huh:


----------



## Briss

MalaMae, fingers crossed your temp stays up

Blythe, thanks I think I am getting better. for some reason AF hit me really hard this time and I kind of sinked into depression feeling like it's all hopeless and could not quite snap out of it. Went for reflexology tonight - what a treat! I so wish I could afford it every day


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## notrustyyet

MalaMae your chart looks great. How did you get pic of your chart to post?


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## Blythe

Briss said:


> MalaMae, fingers crossed your temp stays up
> 
> Blythe, thanks I think I am getting better. for some reason AF hit me really hard this time and I kind of sinked into depression feeling like it's all hopeless and could not quite snap out of it. Went for reflexology tonight - what a treat! I so wish I could afford it every day

Im glad you are feeling better. Treat yourself to a foot massager...

Im going to fertility yoga tonight in clapham...apparently she has a 77% success rate or something like that...it a place called qiyoga. Ive gone to her classes before...back in the days when i used to exercise....its official i am now overweight and i can feel it so im hoping at the very least the yoga will make me more body aware and keep off thr bad stuff.

Hang on in there...:flower:


----------



## MalaMae

notrustyyet said:


> MalaMae your chart looks great. How did you get pic of your chart to post?

Thanks, if not for BFP than at least I know my hormones are not fluctuating after O anymore :)

As for the chart in my signature, "Fertility friend" gives you the same code as you had for your ticker.


----------



## Briss

Blythe, good luck with your fertility yoga class, sound interesting tell us more when you come back. I am trying to do Kundalini Yoga at home https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B008NA9UFU/ref=oh_details_o02_s00_i00 it's not about fertility but the second Chakra exercises sort of get you there. I have trouble motivating myself to do it, aerobics with J Fonda is easier cos it's more fun :) I guess it's easier when you do it in class but getting myself to go there is difficult. I still have a few days before O so determined to persevere with exercises. Yesterday I was wearing one of my old (5 year old) trouser suit and it was disgusting cos my fat was sticking out of everywhere and I could not breathe in it while when I bought it it actually was a bit big for me :( I should not really be complaining cos I know perfectly well what I need to do &#8211; stop stuffing myself with all that chocolate and pastry!

CD6 for me, totally excited to see LOW!!! on my CBFM it's been a while, last few cycles it went straight to high so here is hoping for a slightly longer cycle. I think it's EPO working and also I did not do acu and did not take herbs (yet) this cycle or it might be just a coincidence. Anyway I decided not to take herbs until after O but I am taking gu han yang sheng jing pian - Ancient Chinese Life-Nourishing Tablet https://www.mentcm.com/yao/yao-18.htm my previous acu doc gave this to me.


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## alison29

I love yoga too...I have not done it for a while because i like to eat candy and it doesn't burn as many calories as stair machine, however wehn i was practicing every week i have never been more peaceful.

I got my surge this morning got a bed in last night and hopefully tomorrow morning. My dh this morning was lke "so did we fertilize anything" i have to admit hope springs eternal! However i wish the records would get transfered already so i can schedu le my lap.


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## alison29

Briss said:


> Blythe, good luck with your fertility yoga class, sound interesting tell us more when you come back. I am trying to do Kundalini Yoga at home https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B008NA9UFU/ref=oh_details_o02_s00_i00 it's not about fertility but the second Chakra exercises sort of get you there. I have trouble motivating myself to do it, aerobics with J Fonda is easier cos it's more fun :) I guess it's easier when you do it in class but getting myself to go there is difficult. I still have a few days before O so determined to persevere with exercises. Yesterday I was wearing one of my old (5 year old) trouser suit and it was disgusting cos my fat was sticking out of everywhere and I could not breathe in it while when I bought it it actually was a bit big for me :( I should not really be complaining cos I know perfectly well what I need to do  stop stuffing myself with all that chocolate and pastry!
> 
> CD6 for me, totally excited to see LOW!!! on my CBFM it's been a while, last few cycles it went straight to high so here is hoping for a slightly longer cycle. I think it's EPO working and also I did not do acu and did not take herbs (yet) this cycle or it might be just a coincidence. Anyway I decided not to take herbs until after O but I am taking gu han yang sheng jing pian - Ancient Chinese Life-Nourishing Tablet https://www.mentcm.com/yao/yao-18.htm my previous acu doc gave this to me.

I know what you mean about the sugar! I ate a triple choco muffin from doughut shop last night because it was going to be a late night and it was convenient. anyone want to try to take it day by day and try to kill our sweets addiciton? I think what i am goint to do is stock up fruits and eat that instead. ITs still calories but at least it's not detrimental to our health. I will keep you posted...Come on we can do it! I am tired of my clothes being snug too.

Be prepared with alternative to junk food is my motto for now. Plenty of apples and bananas will be bought today.


----------



## FireBaby

Hey Alison - I'm in - I need someone to curb my sugar addiction with. 
For a start I'm thinking I might try to completely give up sugar and bad carbs during the week and on the weekend allow myself to splurge. 
I really do believe that the inflammatory response we get from sugar and bad carbs does cause our fertility to get messed up and from what I've been reading people are able to reverse low AMH and high FSH levels just based on their diets....
At the very least it's nice to feel sexier in your clothes! Which might lead to more BD which might lead to a BFP!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Briss

Alison and Firebaby, I am with you. good plan about weekdays, I did the same for coffee i.e. no caffeine during the week and then I allow myself a nice cup of turkish coffee on sat and sun. we can try to do the same for chocolate, am buying tonnes of fruit to have ready on my desk from Monday :) good plan!


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## FireBaby

Okay great! I like the cut out the sugar plan. I need some people to keep me honest on this one :)


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## Blythe

Briss said:


> Blythe, good luck with your fertility yoga class, sound interesting tell us more when you come back. I am trying to do Kundalini Yoga at home https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B008NA9UFU/ref=oh_details_o02_s00_i00 it's not about fertility but the second Chakra exercises sort of get you there. I have trouble motivating myself to do it, aerobics with J Fonda is easier cos it's more fun :) I guess it's easier when you do it in class but getting myself to go there is difficult. I still have a few days before O so determined to persevere with exercises. Yesterday I was wearing one of my old (5 year old) trouser suit and it was disgusting cos my fat was sticking out of everywhere and I could not breathe in it while when I bought it it actually was a bit big for me :( I should not really be complaining cos I know perfectly well what I need to do  stop stuffing myself with all that chocolate and pastry!
> 
> CD6 for me, totally excited to see LOW!!! on my CBFM it's been a while, last few cycles it went straight to high so here is hoping for a slightly longer cycle. I think it's EPO working and also I did not do acu and did not take herbs (yet) this cycle or it might be just a coincidence. Anyway I decided not to take herbs until after O but I am taking gu han yang sheng jing pian - Ancient Chinese Life-Nourishing Tablet https://www.mentcm.com/yao/yao-18.htm my previous acu doc gave this to me.

That dvd looks great......i may get it! I went to yoga tonight and it was half exercise and half meditation....i havent really exercised for so so long that i found it all really difficult and couldnt quite get into the poses....and then came the meditation where she guided us through a "really powerful meditation where you will meet your baby/ies"....over the years i have tried deep meditation, yogic breathing, hypnotism etc etc and i just dont think im very spiritual...i really struggled with it and its because i just cannot let go. Hand on heart...my favorite ever exercise dvd was done by bianca from eastenders....it was set in a nightclub and the production was shocking but i really enjoyed it. 

Im going to check out the reviews for your dvd now...


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## Briss

a friend recommended Kundalini Yoga with Maya Fiennes and she says it really helped her even emotionally. she is going through really hard time with her DH refusing to have children for various ridiculous reasons so apparently this type of yoga (it's very different from others cos you do not just do poses you have to move all the time it's quite physical) can help with your head as well as body. it's also apparently ancient technics for regulating hormones. I started with her Detox and De-stres shttp://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B000NJLQWY/ref=oh_details_o02_s00_i01 which is slightly easier.

I do not get mediation either, I just do not understand how you can not think, cant separate from my mind and just observe it.


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## Blythe

Going to get the destress one as its cheaper...looks good...thanks for posting links.


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## Briss

the destress one is probably cheaper cos it's just one CD, the other one has 3 CDs with exercises for each of the first three chakras. tried 3rd chakra yesterday and found it just too hard, some exercises are simply impossible for me 

something is wrong with me this cycle, it's not the first night when i wake up in the middle of the night and just cant go back to sleep, have really bad headache too :( on the plus side my sex drive is returning so we can start getting busy


----------



## Blythe

I was up at 3.30am going through the yoga amazon reviews for maya Fiennes. Im tired and bit upset. I have my period pains and usual stuff that happens this time in my cycle prior to AF arriving. I know it seems to early to know but i do know my body so well now.....hey ho at least AF itself never upsets me as I'm always well prepared for it. My acu man said I'm ready to conceive now so hopefully next cycle. Im going to do some yoga this am and try to do it 3 times per week...im so inflexible but totally intrigued by those dvds....some of the reviews said not great if you are a beginner so not sure about the chakra one...do you think it would be ok for an unfit girl like me?


----------



## Briss

Blythe I am sorry about your period pains but your temp looks amazing!! but then you know that AF and BFP quite often have the same symptoms 

I am very unfit as well but I am surprisingly flexible and it helps, Some of the exercises I just cant do so I do as much as I can, mantras are funny and my DH makes fun of me when I sing them :) I tried the second chakra first and could not do it do started with detox one and after a few times I went back and did the first chakra and it was much better. I also got her book which explains the exercises in detail


----------



## Blythe

thats great ta...I feeling very motivated to change alot of stuff at the moment...the frustrations of TTC taking so damn long is the driving force [of course!] and a fair helping of pure vanity. I have just gone and brought some yoga pants and a book on healthy eating with nice pictures so i may actually do some of the recipes...

I have acu tomorrow and then i will leave it for a couple of weeks then return for my last treatment [of this batch at least]...i will continue with the acu but discuss the herbs....as i may drop them depending on what they say.


----------



## Briss

actually the more I read about TCM to more I think that herbs might be more important than acu

I had my acu session today and for the first time I did not get zigongs! such a relief :) I had 27 needles and most in my head/face and legs and electrics went through legs' needles. I could really relax and was beginning to enjoy myself and even thought of extending for another 7 sessions but half way through the session she returned and needled my zigongs :( it was still better than before cos there was no electrics going through them. but then she did not clean the area before inserting needles there and the left zigong needle punctured my vein, I got bleeding and bruising and am now worried about getting an infection. I know there is a risk of infection but not sure what's the likelihood of that. but then I am prone to worry.

I asked my acu doc about my deficiencies cos she said I still have yin/yang imbalance, she could not explain it herself and her assistant said that basically I have deficiency of both Yin and Yang and it's kidney deficiency (I am surprised cos that is not how I diagnosed myself based on various symptoms), I also have liver stagnation (which I agree) and spleen deficiency (totally agree) but she concentrated on kidney deficiency. Maybe that's the reason why there is very little progress (which she admitted) because I am being treated for wrong deficiency? but then you would think she knows better what my deficiencies are but she does not ask me enough questions only "cold better?" "energy better?" "acne better?". her assistant also said that my main problem is stress and I need to relax :( that was the only lifestyle advice I got from her, she said there is nothing food wise I can do to improve matters which is definitely not right. she also said my Blood is fine without even checking with doc but I am quite sure I have anemia due to low iron levels (it always shows on my blood tests) and heavy periods, I am sure there is some sort f blood deficiency. I think i really need to find a different practitioner


----------



## Briss

I also got more herbs today but decided to wait until after O, things are going really well CD7 and still LOW!!! am totally excited I may O later CD12/13 and have a longer cycle so do not want to mess things up right now.


----------



## Blythe

Briss said:


> actually the more I read about TCM to more I think that herbs might be more important than acu
> 
> I had my acu session today and for the first time I did not get zigongs! such a relief :) I had 27 needles and most in my head/face and legs and electrics went through legs' needles. I could really relax and was beginning to enjoy myself and even thought of extending for another 7 sessions but half way through the session she returned and needled my zigongs :( it was still better than before cos there was no electrics going through them. but then she did not clean the area before inserting needles there and the left zigong needle punctured my vein, I got bleeding and bruising and am now worried about getting an infection. I know there is a risk of infection but not sure what's the likelihood of that. but then I am prone to worry.
> 
> I asked my acu doc about my deficiencies cos she said I still have yin/yang imbalance, she could not explain it herself and her assistant said that basically I have deficiency of both Yin and Yang and it's kidney deficiency (I am surprised cos that is not how I diagnosed myself based on various symptoms), I also have liver stagnation (which I agree) and spleen deficiency (totally agree) but she concentrated on kidney deficiency. Maybe that's the reason why there is very little progress (which she admitted) because I am being treated for wrong deficiency? but then you would think she knows better what my deficiencies are but she does not ask me enough questions only "cold better?" "energy better?" "acne better?". her assistant also said that my main problem is stress and I need to relax :( that was the only lifestyle advice I got from her, she said there is nothing food wise I can do to improve matters which is definitely not right. she also said my Blood is fine without even checking with doc but I am quite sure I have anemia due to low iron levels (it always shows on my blood tests) and heavy periods, I am sure there is some sort f blood deficiency. I think i really need to find a different practitioner

I get the same questions...are your feet still cold and how is your sleep is about all i get. The interest in seeing my charts has wained too. I think TCM treatment should embrace every aspect of your life in terms of exercise, diet etc so i agree that her advice re food is duff. I was told to avoid pork and cold stuff and eAt lamb but thats About it. It would be great to get really firm clear advice about what else we can do to help the treatments along.

How about the Chinese medicine institute....they are a centre of excellence and really know their stuff....i am seriously tempted to go to them despite slight increase in cost.

The only time i have bled following acu is from needles in head.....did she see the blood or did it bleed later on? My doc is also a bit hit and miss with the disinfecting bit before inserting needles.

Do you have any treatments left with her?

Ps...:happydance:for the low days!


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## Blythe

Pps....telling a woman who is desperate to conceive to relax is Like a red rag to a bull...i hate that (no matter how well intended it is)


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## Briss

I still have one acu and 2 weeks of herbs but I am tempted to call it a day as soon as it's finished. it's not the first time I am bleeding, last time I bled from 3 needles and got bruising, was really glad it's winter so I have long sleeves and can wear black tights to work to hide it. she saw bleeding and just wiped it and pressed that point for a bit. she said it happens nothing to worry about. how can I not worry?

Also after almost 4 months of treating me I think I deserve to get some more info as to the progress. her assistant talks nonsense most of the time but I think it's common for chinese clinics, they always have a person who is responsible for selling stuff as opposed to treating patients. One thing that I expected to get better is acne but it's quite clearly just getting worse. She keeps needling my face and spots but I do not see any improvement. One thing that worked is she cleared my headache today by adding new needles to face/head. 

I may try the Chinese medicine institute but this time before I start treatment I would really like to have a proper conversation to understand what deficiencies they can identify. I think I want it to be about my general health rather than conception. cant bear any more zigongs :)

after sleepless night I feel so tired and broken emotionally, been crying all day again. have a very bad metallic taste in my mouth :(


----------



## Blythe

Im so sorry you have been crying:hugs: i think after 4 months you should have some gains from your treatment (weekly acu and daily herbs is quite intense) or at the very least a clear explanation of where she thinks you are in terms of getting your body balanced. 

I am off for acu at lunch and have to say after 8 weeks of treatment i don't really feel any different...and my lower back is still playing up. But then i wonder if it has had an effect on my attitude because i do feel like making positive changes and doing yoga and stuff and eating better...or maybe its, as i mentioned yesterday, just fuelled by continued heartbreak.

My acu man uses the tiniest needles and my ovaries have never hurt during treatment (have ached after though) but the lady that used to do me used larger needles and they hurt like mad...anyhow treatments should not cause you pain:nope:


----------



## Briss

was very upset with my DH, he came up with a new craze - fasting! :( he is quite skinny as is and yet he is fasting himself to a state of ketosis, does not eat anything apart from supplements and water and coffee surely this cant be good for sperm, if there is any left ... we have been having so many arguments over this but i cant seem to win :(

My face is really bad, spots look so huge! do not know how i'm gonna face colleagues tomorrow, nothing i can do to cover them up.

My zigongs were always painful not just when she inserts needles but all the time until they are out. I am afraid to move and breathe cos even a slight movement makes it even more painful that's why I could not relax during the treatment.

You are right, 4 months is a lot of time, next sunday is my last visit so I will try to make another attempt to get some info on where she thinks I am in terms of getting my body balanced. because I do not see it myself. 

The chinese institute runs free sessions actually so we can try that before committing to anything but I checked their website and they seem to do a lot for male fertility but not that much for female.


----------



## Blythe

oh dear fasting is not the healthiest way forward. i wonder why he is doing that if he is already slim. My DH was taking diet tablets for ages alongside his supplements although they finished this weekend so hope that will be the last i see of them. How frustrating for you...I think some of the supps he is taking are best taken with food to aid absorption.

i just came back from acu and asked him what my imbalances were and he said kidney yang deficiency but also a bit of yin too and weak spleen. I have the beginnings of AF today so my shortest LP yet but still long enough for me not to be too concerned. I have just been to boots and purchased 'Wassen - Magnesium-OK' which has extra magnesium, vitamin B6 and Vit D so see if that helps with energy levels and spotting [although spotting had cleared up for a couple of months it back now]. 

he stuck needles in the side of my hands to help with my lower back pain and they hurt like mad....i did some yoga this morning and could barely bend over without pain so hoping this session will have helped.

i have popped into the chinese medicine institute a couple of times over the last year or so and the first time had a conversation with a doc in there who said they assist women during IVF and IUIs....they have a proper herbal dispensary too.


----------



## Blythe

MalaMae said:


> Oh dear God, just when I thought I'm done with the dried placenta, I got another round of it :nope: Another 7 days, 2 times daily :sick:
> 
> Massage? Sounds amazing. I'm dreaming of this: https://www.amazon.ca/Osaki-OS-4000...96/ref=sr_1_16?ie=UTF8&qid=1359755116&sr=8-16
> Tried one for 10 min and thought I'm in heaven :thumbup:

See link for info on placenta in chinese medicine......you have to scroll down a bit

https://www.thriveacupuncture.org/1/category/womens health0c5c1313b7/1.html


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## Briss

Blythe, are you sure it's AF? seems a bit early you never have anything shorter than 15 days. I wonder what's causing it 

I was told I also have kidney yang deficiency but also yin deficiency... confusing 

I reached my limit today and completely fell apart because of things with hubby not improving and in the end we had to have a very serious talk, I explained how serious I am about having children and how meaningless my life would be without them and I even said that I am considering leaving him and doing it along :( I love him so much but I just cannot wait for him for years and years while my time is literally running out. it was so emotional. In the end I think he finally realised how serious our situation is and agreed to fully commit to TTC for the next 3 months and improve his sperm count i.e. stop alcohol (most important!) and eat properly + vitamins + blood tests + BD when required. I feel like I've returned back to life! I do not have any hope for this cycle because of his fasting but at least I have now hope that this may happen later


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## MalaMae

Briss, regarding the acne problem- the driede placenta solved that problem for me. I always have problem with blackheads due to my oily skin. After taking the placenta for 2 weeks I noticed my blackheads almost diminshed. I did some googling and asked him as well- lot of articles and my chinese doctor said the same- in china the women take driedf placenta to have beautiful skin. I guess the hormones in it do the trick :)


----------



## MalaMae

Blythe, in your last chart I noticed something that I have been noticing on my charts since I started going to acupuncture: both of us have temp drop very early- you on 8th, me on 9-10 day, but actual ovulation couple of days later. In the past motnhs I also had short LP (at least I though so). I don't what is going on, but I've never had short LP, it was always 14 days, but when I count 14 days backwards, it turns out that I ovulated on 9-10 day. Maybe the body is trying to ovulate longer?

I don't know if you are following me, I don't know how to explain this. I noticed this on several of my charts.


----------



## Blythe

Briss - im glad you were able to talk and make your DH understand the seriousness of this for you and for you both as a couple.....sometimes we need to pull out the big guns in order for them to really get it. My DH has no comprehension of how upsetting ths last two years have been and is losing patience with my mood swings...im not sure but i think that dhea is having an effect on my temper! So glad your DH is now willing to get fully on board and cut out drink and eat! This is going to be your year...dont forget what your chinese horoscope said!!

No AF yet....but still threatening...i suspect just a plunge in my prog levels but id rather it turned up sooner rather than later as i just want to start a fresh cycle now.


----------



## Blythe

Malamae - i know what you mean...its strange and has confused FF a couple of times who initially put my O at an earlier date. I will make sure i use my opks earlier this month to see if i can pick up an earlier LH surge. Im sorry you got a negative but no AF yet so it could still happen...i am waiting for AF to turn up but feeling positive for next cycle!


----------



## Blythe

AF just turned up but i figure the longer this takes the healthier my eggs will be what with all the tablets I'm swallowing every day [well they are either doing that or buggering up my cycles:wacko:]


----------



## Blythe

Briss said:


> Blythe, are you sure it's AF? seems a bit early you never have anything shorter than 15 days. I wonder what's causing it
> 
> I was told I also have kidney yang deficiency but also yin deficiency... confusing
> 
> I reached my limit today and completely fell apart because of things with hubby not improving and in the end we had to have a very serious talk, I explained how serious I am about having children and how meaningless my life would be without them and I even said that I am considering leaving him and doing it along :( I love him so much but I just cannot wait for him for years and years while my time is literally running out. it was so emotional. In the end I think he finally realised how serious our situation is and agreed to fully commit to TTC for the next 3 months and improve his sperm count i.e. stop alcohol (most important!) and eat properly + vitamins + blood tests + BD when required. I feel like I've returned back to life! I do not have any hope for this cycle because of his fasting but at least I have now hope that this may happen later

just been reading about strengthening kidneys and spleen. I think they mean that the kidney yang needs to be strengthened but also the kidney yin needs to be nourished at the same time in order to promote overall functioning of things governed by the kidneys..our waterworks and so on...


----------



## Briss

MalaMae, thanks, I will think about placenta and ask my doc. I am taking vitamin B5, there was some research that it can help clear acne. no change yet but then I take a lower dose. I have some blackheads but my main concern is these extra large red ones, that are painful to touch. I was trying to squeeze one of them but there was nothing coming out, they seem to be hard inside, quite worrying 

Blythe, I am sorry AF got you but somehow I am still hoping it's not the case for you. your chart is very confusing, temp is just really high for CD1. does it look like normal AF? could this be implantation bleeding instead? if it's not implantation maybe it's DHEA messing things up? Is this your first cycle taking DHEA?

I am thinking constantly about what my Chinese horoscope said! We went to china town on Sunday for Chinese new year but I was so low that I could not enjoy it because I had so much hope for this year but looking at what hubby's been up to I realised that unless I make a drastic change things will continue as they are so felt it was time we made some decisions. I threatened to leave him before but it's always been after we had some argument in the heat of the moment, I guess this time it was different because I was totally calm and he realised that I was determined and I thought this through. If I was younger it would not have been a problem, I could wait for him for years to come around. Unfortunately I do not really have that much time considering that I would really like to have more than one child&#8230; anyway, after we talked I feel so happy, for the first time in months I actually care about things other than TTC (like work&#8230;) and truly feel this is going to be our year.

The doc told me that my kidney yang and yin are low, both of them, whatever it means

re spotting, I am so pleased to report I had no after AF spotting!! This is really big, ever since I had this lap I was suffering from spotting going on and on until CD8-9, not great considering that I O on CD11. so this cycle I decided to try and "clear" things up by doing intensive exercise on CD4 once the bleeding started to wear off and BD on CD5 and got my usual 6 day AF and no spotting, so pleased! Also I think EPO is helping as well.

re war on chocolate, I had a tiny bit of chocolate this morning (usually I'd already go through a 100gr bar before lunchtime) so far so good, finishing my lunch so my usual chocolate crave will kick in in a minute, determined to run across the street to tesco and buy fruit&#8230;


----------



## Blythe

well having had a bright red bleed earlier it has all disappeared so i guess its spotting but ive never had fresh blood spotting before.....I think its too late for an implantation bleed. I will see what else happens today and then change chart later if nothing. I have really bad pains and PMT symptoms galore so will be vexed if this continues until expected date of AF which is thursday. Just when i thought i had sorted my spotting out. On a plus note my back is improving...i did some yoga today as its my working at home day so hoping to do some form of stretching/breathing stuff everyday at least for 10 mins and i have booked into another fertility yoga session this friday evening.

My DH went to do his SA this am in St Georges so i am desperately hoping this will be processed in good time..he placed it in an incubator [5 mins after producing it] and it is then sent off to st helliers in epsom. i thought they did it on the premises...anyhow if this one goes wrong i will be furious beyond belief.

Your positivity is infectious...lets hope we all get our BFPs before easter!!


----------



## Blythe

My doc also said I am both kidney yang and yin deficient. Today I ordered some jasmine tea as that is recommended so will give that a crack!


----------



## Briss

jasmine tea? is it green tea with jasmine or is it some other sort of tea? I am also confused between green tea and Chinese tea, I always assumed Chinese tea was green tea but there seem to be a difference.

Unfortunately I never had implantation bleeding so no idea how this may look like but ladies in general section were sharing their experience of having period while being pregnant. If I were you I'd go against my principals and test every day now just because this seems to be very unusual


----------



## MalaMae

Blythe said:


> well having had a bright red bleed earlier it has all disappeared so i guess its spotting but ive never had fresh blood spotting before.....I think its too late for an implantation bleed. I will see what else happens today and then change chart later if nothing. I have really bad pains and PMT symptoms galore so will be vexed if this continues until expected date of AF which is thursday. Just when i thought i had sorted my spotting out. On a plus note my back is improving...i did some yoga today as its my working at home day so hoping to do some form of stretching/breathing stuff everyday at least for 10 mins and i have booked into another fertility yoga session this friday evening.
> 
> My DH went to do his SA this am in St Georges so i am desperately hoping this will be processed in good time..he placed it in an incubator [5 mins after producing it] and it is then sent off to st helliers in epsom. i thought they did it on the premises...anyhow if this one goes wrong i will be furious beyond belief.
> 
> Your positivity is infectious...lets hope we all get our BFPs before easter!!

I'm keeping my fingers and toes crossed for you!! :thumbup:Maybe you are prego, although u have light period. If still continues to be light for the next 2 days, do a test.


----------



## Blythe

well continued spotting a bit but not bright red anymore so will amend my chart to a spotting day rather than CD1.

i brought a mixture of green tea with jasmine leafs...im not sure what chinese tea is. i always thought people said it when referring to green tea. i drink japanese matcha green tea sometimes...its powdered and like rocket fuel...like espresso shots!


----------



## MalaMae

Baaam!!! AF caught me! But I'm fine, no tears, I don't even care :)

Forgot to tell you one thing about the placenta- it made me SOOOO bitchy! Usually I would be like that 5 days before AF. Now, since after the O day I was sooo mean and bitchy, snapping on my DH. I mean not I was not like that every day, I was on and off, the other days when I wasn't bitchy- I was endlessly happy. Wierd! I think the placenta was trying to regulate the hormones.

What is the jasmine tea for?


----------



## Briss

MalaMae, sorry about af :( are you going to continue with the placenta this cycle?

Blythe, hoping and praying for you

from reading I do not think I have kidney yang and yin deficiency, I just do not seem to fit into this type. can the doc be wrong?


----------



## Blythe

Malamae - sorry for AF but your cycle has looked great and those temps brill so everything is heading in the right direction for you. Jasmine tea is good for kidney yang deficiency types.

Briss-yes i think the doc can be wrong....it would be interesting to get a second opinion.

Afm-bright red spotting again....and bfn so roll on thurs! Im predicting a march/april BFP for myself!! Mind over matter....mind over matter!!

Im determined to change my diet and cut out the crap....no cakes, crisps or chocolate...i am going to do this!


----------



## Briss

Blythe, sorry about bfn fingers crossed for march/april BFP! I am with you on cutting the crap out. was very good yesterday staffing myself with bananas and apples all afternoon until I could not take it anymore but no chocolate!

afm, also disappointed was so hoping to O later this cycle but got a peak today on CD10. even when I do not get HIGH from CD6 I still get peak on CD10 but just after 2 HIGHs starting from CD8 rather than 4 HIGHs starting from CD6. Maybe I was going to O later but all this drama with hubby is making me O earlier 

Also, one of my spots started bleeding during the night. Now that's bleeding gone there is a red line going through it like a blood vessel I just hope it wont stay like that cos it looks terrible. I do not even think it is a spot, no idea what it was and not sure the doc stucking a needle into it was a good thing to do.


----------



## phrumkidost

Hi ladies,

I may have posted something in this thread back in the beginning but lost track of what I was following. I hope it's okay if I revisit this (if not, please forgive me!). I was using acupuncture for 2+ months, and it worked for me! I think I found someone good, who specialized in infertility. The needles never hurt longer than a few seconds, never bled, and never caused any bleeding. The guys I was seeing was Chinese and trained in China. Anyway, I just wanted to add a positive story to this thread!

And, I'm sending lots and lots of positive energy and baby dust your way! xo


----------



## Briss

Phrumkidost, congratulations and H&H 9 months! It's so lucky to find an acu doc you can totally trust and who can make s difference. Can I ask what points you had needled and whether you generally felt better after a few weeks of acu? I am going for my last acu appointment this Sunday and then I think I am going to take a break. I will still be taking herbs. It's interesting that you never had any bleeding. I had quite a few, even now I still have my left zigong bruising quite bad. One of NHS' doctors who also trained in acu said it happens sometimes that a needle punctures a blood vessel and I understand it's not a big deal (although when I look at my bruising I am not happy at all)


----------



## Blythe

phrumkidost said:


> Hi ladies,
> 
> I may have posted something in this thread back in the beginning but lost track of what I was following. I hope it's okay if I revisit this (if not, please forgive me!). I was using acupuncture for 2+ months, and it worked for me! I think I found someone good, who specialized in infertility. The needles never hurt longer than a few seconds, never bled, and never caused any bleeding. The guys I was seeing was Chinese and trained in China. Anyway, I just wanted to add a positive story to this thread!
> 
> And, I'm sending lots and lots of positive energy and baby dust your way! xo

hi phrumkidost

good to see you posting here! I remember you also had issues with spotting and were using a prog cream. I used it for a couple of months and had no spotting but this month spotting has returned with a vengeance:cry: did you keep applying the cream right up to time AF expected or before?

congratulations to you...always lovely to see a BFP result. x


----------



## MalaMae

Phrumkidost, congratulations! It's good to hear news like this. :

Briss, I just remembered I had a small bruise on my belly. I wasn't very concerned, sometimes they do hit something unfortunately. Sorry you are having bad experience with the acu. Maybe if you change the doctor.
Are you noticing any changes? How long is the doctor keeping the needles in? Is he/she putting a needle on your back as well?
I'm entering my 5th month of acupuncture. I finally see changes in the temps, I'm way more warmer than I was (36.60 Celsius on day 2! whaaaat??)


----------



## Blythe

Briss said:


> Blythe, sorry about bfn fingers crossed for march/april BFP! I am with you on cutting the crap out. was very good yesterday staffing myself with bananas and apples all afternoon until I could not take it anymore but no chocolate!
> 
> afm, also disappointed was so hoping to O later this cycle but got a peak today on CD10. even when I do not get HIGH from CD6 I still get peak on CD10 but just after 2 HIGHs starting from CD8 rather than 4 HIGHs starting from CD6. Maybe I was going to O later but all this drama with hubby is making me O earlier
> 
> Also, one of my spots started bleeding during the night. Now that's bleeding gone there is a red line going through it like a blood vessel I just hope it wont stay like that cos it looks terrible. I do not even think it is a spot, no idea what it was and not sure the doc stucking a needle into it was a good thing to do.


crickey that spot sounds awful!! i hope it clears up soon...i have some corkers on my chin today..one was particularly painful to burst but it had to be done and i returned to my desk with a bloody chin. still no proper AF for me so if AF turns up as expected on thurs i will have had about 5 days spotting which is a bit crap really as i feel im taking some steps back.

However, i am now home and going to do some yoga or at least some stretching and try to get rid of this horrible headache. I had no caffeine and no chocolate today....I'm sure those sugar highs play havoc with my hormones and I'm determined to give it my best shot this month...i may even resort to foreplay if required [our idea of foreplay nowadays is checking to see if either of us is awake].

i know you would like to see a longer cycle as you had before but your cycles are still nice and healthy and long enough to do what needs to be done.


----------



## Briss

MalaMae, it's great that you are seeing positive changes from acu. I think I am getting a little more energy and slightly warmer as well. the doctor keeps the needles in for 30 min and I do not get any needles on my back

Blythe, are you taking progesterone this cycle? good luck with Yoga, I was supposed to do aerobics tonight but seeing a peak this morning means I am damping everything at work and rushing home to BD. I hope we wont need any foreplay cos with hubby's low sex drive our idea of foreplay is a lot of hard work on my side&#8230; I agree I think I still can get pregnant with a shorted cycle it's just the idea of cycles getting shorter = approaching menopause, scary


----------



## Blythe

i did apply my prog cream but stopped it a few days back but i did the same thing last cycle with no spotting. Next time il keep up with the prog cream a little longer.

i having a week off herbs and no acu this weekend....will go the following sat and then probably sign up for another round of 5 sessions with herbs. I will also see what DH's SA results look like next week. If they are rubbish i will give him the option of acu/herbs for him or IVF!


----------



## Briss

I hope your DH's results will be great. but in any way acu/herbs is a good way to improve things (if only my DH agreed to this...)

I am done with OPK/CBFM for this cycle, got a smily face in the evening so I guess I am going to O tomorrow. will try to BD tomorrow as well although I am already waiting for the next cycle to start things properly with hubby on board this time.

How was your yoga?


----------



## phrumkidost

Briss said:


> Phrumkidost, congratulations and H&H 9 months! It's so lucky to find an acu doc you can totally trust and who can make s difference. Can I ask what points you had needled and whether you generally felt better after a few weeks of acu? I am going for my last acu appointment this Sunday and then I think I am going to take a break. I will still be taking herbs. It's interesting that you never had any bleeding. I had quite a few, even now I still have my left zigong bruising quite bad. One of NHS' doctors who also trained in acu said it happens sometimes that a needle punctures a blood vessel and I understand it's not a big deal (although when I look at my bruising I am not happy at all)

Thank you!
The points he needled varied on where I was in my cycle, but I can't remember specifically what changed. In general, the points were: feet, outside of calves, inside of thigh near knee, area in hand between thumb and forefinger, tummy, top of head. Once or twice he did the side of my head, too. He left them in for a bout thirty minutes, and usually came back about half-way through to give them all another vibrate. I always felt better after a treatment, but I think that's because it relaxed me.

The first full cycle I was really slow to ovulate (CD 23) but I had a real ovulation, with lots of EWCM (new for me) and a strong desire to BD with every guy I saw -- LOL. Timing was off that month for us, though. The next cycle everything continued by my Oing was moved up to around CD 14. Again, I had the EWCM and strong desire to BD. Timing was good and that was the cycle that worked. Both months my temps were good in that the two phases were very clearly distinct.



Blythe said:


> hi phrumkidost
> 
> good to see you posting here! I remember you also had issues with spotting and were using a prog cream. I used it for a couple of months and had no spotting but this month spotting has returned with a vengeance:cry: did you keep applying the cream right up to time AF expected or before?
> 
> congratulations to you...always lovely to see a BFP result. x

Thank you! I did stick with the prog cream. The first month I stopped when AF came and started up again only after O. The second month, after my BFP, I just continued to take it. I had been advised to keep with it as my body may need to rely on it to keep pregnancy healthy. The spotting got better with it, but didn't completely go away. The month I got pregnant I had three days of implantation bleeding which I thought was very early spotting.

Blythe, were you using the cream only Post O?

Thanks again to you all for your good wishes! I'm crossing my fingers you all get good news soon, too.

In case it helps, I'm posting a link to my charts. I'll probably continue to stalk this thread, too, if that's okay (I know not everyone likes to be reminded someone else has had luck in ttc).

https://www.fertilityfriend.com/home/3faf62//thumb.png
My Ovulation Chart


----------



## phrumkidost

MalaMae said:


> Phrumkidost, congratulations! It's good to hear news like this. :
> 
> I'm entering my 5th month of acupuncture. I finally see changes in the temps, I'm way more warmer than I was (36.60 Celsius on day 2! whaaaat??)

Thank you! The acupunture really helped with my temps, too. If you look at my charts you'll see I got way low before O (below 36!) but it spiked up afterwards. I used to feel cold all the time, but once things started to work for me I as feeling much warmer after O. I was told the dropping of the temp indicated increased estrogen which helped bring the LH rise necessary for ovulation. Anyway, this is all to say that your recent temp symptoms sound like good news.


----------



## Briss

Phrumkidost, thank you very much for responding. Its interesting to know that the points you doc needled varied on where you were in your cycle. I think that's important cos I get more or less the same points every time. I also feel better after a treatment but not during cos I am quite tense from pain. thanks for posting your chart I love pregnancy charts!

I did not get much EWCM yesterday but we BD cos it was peak, today on the other hand I am getting tonnes of watery CM. I got really concerned that we were missing on my fertile time and went to canary wharf to get more lunch time DB&#8230; not a good idea, hubby could not perform under pressure of babies knocking on the door of our baby changing room every 5 minutes but it was fun. I felt kind of guilty that we occupied their room but then our cause was totally justified after all these babies were already born so should be happy. am still hoping to get more BD in tonight but my left ovary stopped aching so may be it is too late.


----------



## Blythe

good on you girl!! lunchtime BD in inappropriate locations is right up my street!


----------



## Blythe

Briss said:


> I hope your DH's results will be great. but in any way acu/herbs is a good way to improve things (if only my DH agreed to this...)
> 
> I am done with OPK/CBFM for this cycle, got a smily face in the evening so I guess I am going to O tomorrow. will try to BD tomorrow as well although I am already waiting for the next cycle to start things properly with hubby on board this time.
> 
> How was your yoga?

yoga was ok...i have just come home and will do some more. Its just basic poses as i really want to improve my flexibility before i get hardcore! i know its not at all competitive but i was like a plank of wood in my class last week and i felt like leaving half way through...


----------



## Briss

Blythe, I see you put today as CD 1, is it really like AF? I am so sorry 

I know what you mean about Yoga, it just takes time and constant repetition for some exercises/poses to come through. 

re BD in inappropriate locations, unfortunately he did not come so it was not quite BD but I loved the idea (although I did buy some towels in nearby Waitrose to make sure it's all clean etc &#8230; I guess that makes me officially old) hubby was less enthused I think he was put off by all these babies making noise outside, he even suggested going to a hotel but that was a bit too much for me although if this happens again I think we should go for what he feels comfortable with. men are so sensitive! 

My watery CM has disappeared cant believe it was on only for a few hours. even grapefruit juice did not help, although last cycle I had plenty of EWCM not just watery


----------



## Blythe

AF is here full flow so happy she is now here properly and i can get stuck into next cycle. Each day feels like an eternity towards the end of cycle.

I always find it difficult to distinguish between CM and residue sperm...nice! I do know i tend to dry up around ovulation but lots of CM before so i use a bit of preseed sometimes. I have some cough medicine for this round and went out and brought some manuka honey (15+) to put in my fresh ginger and lemon hot drink....will hopefully keep colds at bay and maybe help me out ttc...i cant have a cycle now without trying something new. :wacko:


----------



## Briss

I've seen lots of varieties of manuka honey in H&B, how's it different from normal honey? 

it's not just residue sperm but also some arousal liquid that I have plenty of around O which is really difficult to distinguish from CM


----------



## Blythe

It has anti-bacterial properties and i have seen that girls use it too improve fertility...im not sure what it does though. I was read through some reviews on amazon and i just thought i would use it in place of the normal honey i have been using. I had a teaspoon of it earlier and its delicious...i have never put honey in my mouth straight from the jar before....i also brought some deodorant from h&b whilst i was there so completely free of any chemicals. Their manuka honeys are in the penny promotion which ends very soon so worth checking out.

Still zero caffeine but 3 choc biscuits earlier but no choc bars so happy with that!


----------



## Briss

I like honey (although I like chocolate more...) and use far more of it since starting drinking ginger tea. will definitely give it a try, thanks for the tip on penny sale 

well done on caffeine and choc! I was not as good today, had a chocolate bar instead of lunch due to the "exceptional circumstances"


----------



## Blythe

Yes i think that lunch break called for a chocolate bar:thumbup

Im thinking of just improving my overall general health as i want to be fit and look good when i get pregnant....the way I've been going would see me lardy and miserable with zero energy.


----------



## MalaMae

Since we are all concerned about our diets, especially trying the diet to be conception friendly, I found "conception diet" divided by period cycles, i.e. different food during period, follicular phase, ovulation and luteal phase. It's interesting:
https://www.urbanmommies.com/pregnancy/conception-and-food-what-to-eat-and-when-to-bring-on-baby/
https://www.cyclediet.com/follicular_phase_menu.php


----------



## Blythe

MalaMae said:


> Since we are all concerned about our diets, especially trying the diet to be conception friendly, I found "conception diet" divided by period cycles, i.e. different food during period, follicular phase, ovulation and luteal phase. It's interesting:
> https://www.urbanmommies.com/pregnancy/conception-and-food-what-to-eat-and-when-to-bring-on-baby/
> https://www.cyclediet.com/follicular_phase_menu.php

Thanks for posting links...i am really going to try to follow some of the advice set out here...in particular avoiding caffeine and trying to maintain a stable blood sugar level by not snacking on chocolate. Currently drinking red wine which is ok as its valentines!


----------



## MalaMae

https://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/free%20files/The%20Treatment%20of%20Infertility%20with%20Chinese%20Medicine.pdf

Check this out. Complete fertility TCM with acupuncture points :) *"Diagnosis and
treatment of female infertility"* I think is something like a school book.

..and Blythe, red wine on Valentines is absolutely fine :) even recommended :)


----------



## Blythe

MalaMae said:


> https://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/free%20files/The%20Treatment%20of%20Infertility%20with%20Chinese%20Medicine.pdf
> 
> Check this out. Complete fertility TCM with acupuncture points :) *"Diagnosis and
> treatment of female infertility"* I think is something like a school book.
> 
> ..and Blythe, red wine on Valentines is absolutely fine :) even recommended :)

Malamae :flower: This is great.....going to print out and read through. Thanks so much for posting....briss it has a bit in there on being both yin and yang deficicent. 

Thank you :flower:


----------



## Briss

MalaMae, thank you very much for posting! This is absolutely fantastic!!! am also going to print out and read through.

Had a few glasses of Champaign last night :) but I am not worried cos I am disregarding this cycle (well trying to). hubby suddenly turned all romantic and stuff - sent me flowers and "I love you" balloons to work :) was slightly embarrassed but also happy that at least our relationships improving.

My awful spot keeps bleeding but it's shrinking which is great. the others are not as scary but it may take longer to get rid of them.


----------



## MalaMae

Briss, the spot STILL bleeds??? NOW it's weird. Shouldn't be happening for that long! Can you change the acupuncturist? Do so if you can, but don't give up. The body needs some time to start working properly. Maybe you'll even have more success with the new acupuncturist.

You are both very welcome for the book. :) I got very excited when I found it and had to share it with you :)
Also I started charting every week the points where he's putting the needles. I'll compare it with the book.


----------



## Blythe

i was looking at the labels on my supps this morning and saw on my royal jelly capsules that they also contain soybean oil, soy lecithin amongst other things....taking soy throughout cycle is a bit of a no-no isn't it? i tried the soy isoflavines last year for three months and remember taking them only for 4 days or something like that at the beginning of my cycle. i might stop taking these as im a bit worried now..

any thoughts/opinions would be gratefully received...


----------



## Blythe

Briss said:


> MalaMae, thank you very much for posting! This is absolutely fantastic!!! am also going to print out and read through.
> 
> Had a few glasses of Champaign last night :) but I am not worried cos I am disregarding this cycle (well trying to). hubby suddenly turned all romantic and stuff - sent me flowers and "I love you" balloons to work :) was slightly embarrassed but also happy that at least our relationships improving.
> 
> My awful spot keeps bleeding but it's shrinking which is great. the others are not as scary but it may take longer to get rid of them.

apparently manuka honey applied directly on spots works at treat!!


----------



## Briss

it does not bleed all the time, just from time to time but it gets smaller with every bleed...

Blythe, I am not sure about soybean oil and soy lecithin. I hope the quantity is not enough to have any effect but it is actually the reason why I take breaks from all my supps from time to time. I also stopped taking royal jelly supps and started eating bee pollen in its natural form instead (it tastes a bit funny though)


----------



## Blythe

Briss thank you....i am going to stop taking them....i went nto boots last night and they also had lethicin in their RJ supps so not going to bother at all and look for the real thing.


----------



## Blythe

phrumkidost said:


> Briss said:
> 
> 
> Phrumkidost, congratulations and H&H 9 months! It's so lucky to find an acu doc you can totally trust and who can make s difference. Can I ask what points you had needled and whether you generally felt better after a few weeks of acu? I am going for my last acu appointment this Sunday and then I think I am going to take a break. I will still be taking herbs. It's interesting that you never had any bleeding. I had quite a few, even now I still have my left zigong bruising quite bad. One of NHS' doctors who also trained in acu said it happens sometimes that a needle punctures a blood vessel and I understand it's not a big deal (although when I look at my bruising I am not happy at all)
> 
> Thank you!
> The points he needled varied on where I was in my cycle, but I can't remember specifically what changed. In general, the points were: feet, outside of calves, inside of thigh near knee, area in hand between thumb and forefinger, tummy, top of head. Once or twice he did the side of my head, too. He left them in for a bout thirty minutes, and usually came back about half-way through to give them all another vibrate. I always felt better after a treatment, but I think that's because it relaxed me.
> 
> The first full cycle I was really slow to ovulate (CD 23) but I had a real ovulation, with lots of EWCM (new for me) and a strong desire to BD with every guy I saw -- LOL. Timing was off that month for us, though. The next cycle everything continued by my Oing was moved up to around CD 14. Again, I had the EWCM and strong desire to BD. Timing was good and that was the cycle that worked. Both months my temps were good in that the two phases were very clearly distinct.
> 
> 
> 
> Blythe said:
> 
> 
> hi phrumkidost
> 
> good to see you posting here! I remember you also had issues with spotting and were using a prog cream. I used it for a couple of months and had no spotting but this month spotting has returned with a vengeance:cry: did you keep applying the cream right up to time AF expected or before?
> 
> congratulations to you...always lovely to see a BFP result. xClick to expand...
> 
> Thank you! I did stick with the prog cream. The first month I stopped when AF came and started up again only after O. The second month, after my BFP, I just continued to take it. I had been advised to keep with it as my body may need to rely on it to keep pregnancy healthy. The spotting got better with it, but didn't completely go away. The month I got pregnant I had three days of implantation bleeding which I thought was very early spotting.
> 
> Blythe, were you using the cream only Post O?
> 
> Thanks again to you all for your good wishes! I'm crossing my fingers you all get good news soon, too.
> 
> In case it helps, I'm posting a link to my charts. I'll probably continue to stalk this thread, too, if that's okay (I know not everyone likes to be reminded someone else has had luck in ttc).
> 
> https://www.fertilityfriend.com/home/3faf62//thumb.png
> My Ovulation ChartClick to expand...


Hi phrumkidost

i wonder if you could help me please..? I am just going through all my supps and checking the labelling and notice with my progesterone cream that if is natural prog from soy with wild yam root extract....did the cream you use have that or was it different?


----------



## Briss

Blythe said:


> Briss thank you....i am going to stop taking them....i went nto boots last night and they also had lethicin in their RJ supps so not going to bother at all and look for the real thing.

I was talking to bee farmers and was told that it's quite difficult to obtain and store royal jelly but bee pollen is easier. I will go through my past posts I think somebody recommended a website where you can buy it directly from bee farmers which is ideal


----------



## Blythe

Briss - thank you i was thinking about trying to get some fresh stuff last night and went a farmers market this morning but nothing there...i went into a whole food store and they have local english honey pollen and fresh royal jelly all in one...its in a pot and has no other nasties in it so got that for £15 and it just says to have a teaspoon 1/2 times per day so il give this a go.

i feel good today...the yoga and cutting out caffeine and choc bars is making me feel so much better...


----------



## Briss

Today I feel like a hero, I've just done 2 hour mountain biking!! my bottom hurts :) I am going to try to do a regular thing out of it, it's just 12 pounds to hire a bike. I hope it's not counteractive to TTC though. although I did have two large pieces of chocolate cake for breakfast... 

definitely going to whole food store tomorrow for honey pollen and fresh royal jelly. does it taste fine?


----------



## Blythe

Well done....that sounds great and what a lovely day for it...it felt like spring earlier! I thinks its great to get the blood circulating and pumping round and it doesnt involve any jumping so all good.

The pot i got is from the area in the shop selling supplements....i originally started looking in their fridge but they didnt have any super fresh stuff...my local shop is called 'AsNature Intended' and the pot is called Hayfeguard pro pollen factor plus...and it is local english honey, pollen and fresh royal jelly....its really hard honey but quite tasty...had some straight and some melted with ginger...yum!


----------



## Blythe

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id...#v=onepage&q=nurture yin in folicular&f=false

Hope this link works....googlebook on tcm and fertility....


----------



## CedarWood

Blythe said:


> well continued spotting a bit but not bright red anymore so will amend my chart to a spotting day rather than CD1.
> 
> i brought a mixture of green tea with jasmine leafs...im not sure what chinese tea is. i always thought people said it when referring to green tea. i drink japanese matcha green tea sometimes...its powdered and like rocket fuel...like espresso shots!

I am being nosey and reading your thread :blush:
In the US at least, the tea you get in Chinese restaurants in Oolong, which is a type tea between black and green. I have found various oolong teas in shops, I think Newbeys does one with Ginseng.


----------



## Briss

Blythe, thanks really interesting book! I'm going through MalaMae's book and it says at the beginning that if there is functional infertility that means kidney Yin and Yang depleted. that's what her assistant said but this is most unhelpful just because I cant get pregnant they cant just assume I have these deficiencies particularly because we have sperm issues nothing to do with me. I am beginning to think they just diagnose kidney Yin and Yang deficiency on the basis of infertility without doing proper diagnosis. I am feeling disappointed because I have looked through various types prepared by various authors and I never put myself in any type of kidney deficiency it's always been the spleen and minor liver Qi stagnation. just wanted to get it out, am continuing reading maybe I will find something that will point out to kidney deficiency


----------



## Blythe

The info that malamae posted and the link i put up yesterday are so interesting and informative but they give me little comfort in terms of the treatment i am receiving.....the whole point of chinese medicine is that each treatment is unIque to that person and changes depending on response to treatments and where we are in our cycles.....my treatments have rarely changed nor my herbal prescription....

There is a lady who works in clapham junction called dr maggie ju who trained in china and did a further degree in the uk and she specialises in fertility...unfortunately she charges upwards of £50 per session but i expect her treatments would change throughout cycle. My doc never asks if if im due to ovulate only if i am on my period....he asked at the beginning about pmt but never any questions since...has never asked about the kind of bleeding i get etc etc.....

My periods are becomming lighter which is no bad thing but if they become any lighter i would worry. 

Im feeling wretched today and tucked up in bed.


----------



## Blythe

Thank you Cederwood..i had no idea :) i like oolong but im really into my jasmine tea at the moment...its lovely and a nice change from the nettle and dandelion teas i have been drinking.....feeling very much like sinking some sweet expressos today though!!


----------



## Briss

Blythe, I am also quite shocked to discover how thorough they are supposed to be and how treatment i supposed to change almost every few days particularly around ovulation. I get the same herbs and roughly the same points every week :( from what I read so far zigong is supposed to be needled only around ovulation not every time.

Just had my last acu session and got all my herbs for 3 weeks in total, I will start from tomorrow on the herbs but will try to check with MalaMae's books what herbs are for what. interestingly, they did not even seem to expect me to continue with them, did not even ask like they knew I am done with them. Acu, particularly right zigong was quite painful and as usual I could not relax, did not like my face needles either particularly needling my spots again :( I do not think it's working anyway. but cupping and massage after was so great and relaxing, I could have that over and over again. The doc told me that my pulse and tongue are improving but did not explain what it means. After 4 months I am still completely in the dark about my deficiencies, symptoms and progress.... annoying. My DH's friend married a chinese lady and I am trying to find out who is her doctor :) I am sure chinese people know who are the best practitioners in London. will keep you posted. 

looks like acu and herbs are working if your periods are becomming lighter? I think it's a good sign. Do you notice more EWCM? 

I feel relieved that this was my last acu session actually, cant bear any more pain and bleeding but will try to find a different practitioner after a short break. also, these trips to uxbridge every sunday were quite time consuming over an hour each way..


----------



## Blythe

Briss - that is quite a trek there and back...I would struggle to do that on a sunday. It annoys me that they didn't seemed concerned by you not rebooking with them...i imagine if i was a doc [charging fees] i would want to see a treatment plan through and know i was doing my very best and id be looking for continued feedback....I think many of these docs on the high street have lots of punters and so don't have to go chasing but it does not sit well with me at all. its just not ethical! This is exactly what happened with my last doc...i remember my last session and he went to needle my tummy as he would usually and the way the towels were placed meant he would have to redo the towel placement so he didnt bother...he just went through the motions and for the last few sessions never bothered with my pulse nor tongue...i felt quite angry that i had given him my money. Don't they realise what a massive commitment it is for us, particularly emotionally....rant rant rant!!

Im really unsure as to whether i sign up for another 5 sessions with current and then go to the chinese medicine institute or do the latter first. I intend to go in there this week and ask if they have docs that work with women trying to get pregnant naturally and my concerns re current treatment I'm getting...i.e. does not change throughout cycle.


----------



## CedarWood

Blythe said:


> Thank you Cederwood..i had no idea :) i like oolong but im really into my jasmine tea at the moment...its lovely and a nice change from the nettle and dandelion teas i have been drinking.....feeling very much like sinking some sweet expressos today though!!

Your welcome:flower:
I had a lot of jasmine tea last cycle around O and I think it gave me more EWCM than normal. :thumbup:


----------



## Blythe

Briss -is your raspberry leaf tea red or green? Daft question but i was drinking the teabags from h&b and it was red and i have some loose leaf and its now green and tastes different!


----------



## Briss

Blythe said:


> Briss -is your raspberry leaf tea red or green? Daft question but i was drinking the teabags from h&b and it was red and i have some loose leaf and its now green and tastes different!

it is supposed to be green, I actually did not buy it from H&M because i think I checked the ingredients and it was not only raspberry leaf but most of it was some other stuff that I did not need so i got some off amazon.


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## Briss

Blythe, I even prepared a little speech explaining why I cant rebook so they were not offended thinking they were going to be asking me to book another set of sessions. I was so concerned that that they didn't seem interested in me rebooking with them. I mean i always worry but here I got all sorts of thoughts that I was probably so damaged that they did not want to bother with me or something...

Had another argument with hubby :( he announced that he is doing another week of fasting! my reaction was total breakdown, he was so scared that he started eating chicken immediately :) why does it have to be so hard to be dealing with men? after shouting and crying I have a very bad pain in my abdomen, it was supposed to be implantation time... I know I said i am disregarding this cycle and I am I mean my head is but my something else is still hoping ...


----------



## Blythe

What is he thinking.....the chicken comment made me lol! Oh god the 2ww is torture.....the first few I was convinced I was pregnant (one of them I was:() but I have had anything truly encouraging for months....with my chemical I had stabbing pains for a short time which caused me discomfort and it was implantation so I have everything crossed....there is always hope. 

I'm now quite convinced that I will get pregnant with a girl in the next few months... Slightly bonkers but the yoga/meditation classes are focused on us really preparing for pregnancy and she seems to think its a given we will get pregnant. What the mind manifests the body will follow or something like that ....


----------



## Briss

It's so great that these yoga classes help you develop the right mindset. i think that's very important.


----------



## Blythe

I have just copied the pages from randine lewis's books with the acu points on and I'm going to try and do some accupressure every day..and use the points she suggests for tonifying Kidney Yin pre ovulation and points for tonifying kidney yang post ovulation.

as kidney yang support progesterone production I'm hoping this will help keep my post ovulation temps up and combat pre-AF spotting.

Im not going to use the prog cream this cycle as it has soy on the label and I'm just not sure about that....

still no caffeine...I'm proud of myself but still feeling ill so hoping that will clear up soon as it buggers up my temps.

Briss - is your DH eating today?


----------



## Briss

MalaMae, was reading your book and apparently your "favorite" Placenta Hominis is added when Jing is very low i.e, to improve the quality of the egg. all good stuff. The more I read the more I love it! it might even be more informative than our favourite Lewis' book. Decided not to do herbs yet because they recommend to be very careful with herbs in TWW. I will read it properly and compare all my herbs and then try to figure out what is the best time to take them in the next cycle. I now wish I had my herbs separately not as a mix so I could mix and match myself. 

Blythe, I have no idea what my DH is up to, am getting slightly disappointed with him, I was so hoping we had a breakthrough a week ago and now I feel like it's all same old&#8230; I got ManukaPharm honey 12TA (whatever it means). tastes like honey&#8230; I am hoping I can replace my morning chocolate with honey

My pain did not feel like stabbing pains, it was more like scratching sensations. but I do not think it was implantation cos I had this type of pain before 

after reading this book, kidney Yin and Yang thing makes sense finally, you do not have to be deficient apparently it's just to reinforce your cycle but one thing I found to be of exceptional relevance to me: herbal formula to encourage complete discharge of menses! This is exactly what I need cos mine were dragging on and on which is not great considering that I ovulate so early. no time for proper EWCM cos I spot for days after AF. I can recognise some of the herbs cos they are in my mix but the timing is also important. I may even go to a Chinese shop and just to buy this formula for my next AF.


----------



## Briss

about honey https://babyworld.co.uk/2011/10/honey-may-aid-conception/?redirect=1

I had no idea that honeymoon comes from honey for a reason


----------



## Blythe

im all about the honey at the moment...nearly finished my first pot! ive been feeling so ghastly that ive just been spooning it into my mouth...heres hoping it works.

Im working at home today whilst also checking youtube videos on qi gong facial massages to help skin look young...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AirxmTk9cpc
my new favourite video!


----------



## MalaMae

Briss, I'm happy you are finding the book usefull. See if you can get dried placenta. But one thing I know, be careful of getting chinese herbs without consulting. Some are cancelling each other, some can be bad combination. Just please be carefull. One month I got Dong Quai on my own and messed up my cycles, made me ovulate waayyy to early.
Blythe, thanks for the google book!!! It's awesome and very detailed. Too bad it's not allowing us to read the whole book.
It actually confirmed something for me that I was suspecting. Namely it says, if your temps are high when you get the AF means that you had chemical pregnancy. I noticed that for several cycles and thought it's just my body is warmer due to TCM. But also noticed my period was heavier, so I guess I'm having chemicals (although pregnancy test was negative). So I guess implantation problem.

Honey?!- I praise it like the "dried placenta" :)) Since I was a kid I've been taking propolis for cold sores, put on the acne, sore throat, anything. Even now, I have a cold and I use 7-8 drops on teaspoon of raw honey every morning.
I used raw honey with bee pollen and royal jelly for 2-3 months- never got sick and my cycles started to improve, but I was ordering it from USA and it was pretty price with shipping and import tax, so had to stop :( Have to find something around Toronto.


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## Blythe

Im having a strange cycle...i had a week of spotting before AF then i have been spotting for a couple of days post AF and today ive started bleeding again with some clots too...only small ones but strange for me....

Im wondering if it has something to do with my new regime and maybe my body is having a good clearout....ive been doing femoral massage and accupuressure and this yoga malarky so it may have done something....other than that ive been taking increased amounts of B vits and vit D3. Who knows....i was upset earlier when i realised the spotting had turned into red blood but hoping it finishs today....

Loving my honey....need to find a good cheap supplier!!


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## MalaMae

That is strange. Even your chart is strange, though I like the steady temps you're having the past 3 days :) Do you have any cramps?
What is femoral massage, btw?


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## Blythe

Ive been ill so I'm hoping that is what is effecting my temps....i did a pregnancy test earlier which is a bit mad as ive just had a period but the bleeding and high temps freaked me out a bit. Femoral massage just means cutting off blood supply down those main arteries that run down leg at top of leg at front so the blood floods into uterus and fallopian tubes etc....you can get someone to help out but i just balance on a yoga block and cut it off for about 20 seconds 2/3 times. Im not sure that explains it very well but there are some videos online.

Il start opks in a couple of days and hope i ovulate around the same time.....

Are you gearing up for ovulation now?


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## MalaMae

I'll look online for the massage.
Is it possible that you had a chemical and now the body is cleaning up? Possibility!

I should ovulate end of the week/. Trying to BD every 3 days as the chinese doctor said.


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## Blythe

Briss - i went into Chinese medicine institute today....they are 35 for half hour acu but they also charge a consultation fee for each visit so potentially looking at around 50 for each session and no deals on herbs.....but they have an impressive dispensary. So its not as cheap as i thought it was...!


----------



## Blythe

MalaMae said:


> I'll look online for the massage.
> Is it possible that you had a chemical and now the body is cleaning up? Possibility!
> 
> I should ovulate end of the week/. Trying to BD every 3 days as the chinese doctor said.

Every 3 days throughout cycle or just around ovulation? Im due to ovulate monday i think so will start BD friday night hopefully or sat am then try every day till tues if DH can manage that! Did you get any other firm advice from your acu doc?

A chem is possible i suppose and may explain my odd cycle.....hope its a one off!


----------



## MalaMae

He also told me 2-3 days after O stop BD. The explanation was: the uterus is getting ready to accept the egg and also if implantation happens, the BD may relax the muscles of uterus and the egg may get deattach.


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## MalaMae

Found something in the book for you: "The dramatic peaks and falls of hormone levels (especially oestrogen) at midcycle can sometimes provoke some bleeding from the endometrium. This is more likely to occur if the growth and structure of the endometrium has not been established soundly earlier in the follicular phase."


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## Briss

Blythe, your temp looks strange, do you still temp vaginally? maybe it's not bad that Chinese medicine institute charges a consultation fee, at least you will have an actual consultation. do you know if they do what MalaMae's book says? I mean change the herbs depending on your cycle? 

I've been doing late nights at the office almost every day this week, so exhausting I cant do it, not young anymore :( on top of that I am taking overnight flight tomorrow going for some client meetings, so much for taking it easy during TWW, the only positive thing is that I am going to be super busy next week so hopefully wont even notice these dreaded last few days before AF arrives. I did not bother with herbs and forgot to take my vitamins, will start again from the next cycle. my acne got out of control, really unpleasant, particularly facing clients


----------



## Blythe

Briss -have missed seeing your posts! Your job sounds exciting...but hectic! It will be good to be busy during those last few tortorous days! Your chart looks very healthy....everything crossed for you.

Ive been ill hence crazy temps but everything back to normal now...although have been taking codeine for my back which is not so great. No yoga for me tomorrow night but will start BD and hopefully manage everyday till tues.

The chinese medicine institute guy said they would want to see all western test results which i thought encouraging but did not really provide much other info as said would need to make appt.....


----------



## Briss

I also feel like I am missing out on things when I cant come to B&B and I love your posts - keeps me going and hoping.

I asked my DH's friend (who is married to a chinese) to recommend a good acu doc and he recommended his friend who finished some acu training only a year ago an opened his clinic - does not look like a great option. interestingly his chinese wife does not go to any acu doc and prefers western approach to health...I wonder why 

did you take codeine for back pain? maybe you can ask your acu doc to fix this? acu is supposed to be great for pain relief. I would be worried if I had to take it after O (before O is fine)


----------



## Blythe

Yeah codeine for back.....will certainly be requesting some help for back on Sunday....an extended lower back rub around ovulation.... Now that is something to get excited about! He did say he had added done herbs sir my back last time but it has only got worse. 

Hope your temps continue on the up.... Good to see nice steady temps


----------



## Blythe

MalaMae said:


> Found something in the book for you: "The dramatic peaks and falls of hormone levels (especially oestrogen) at midcycle can sometimes provoke some bleeding from the endometrium. This is more likely to occur if the growth and structure of the endometrium has not been established soundly earlier in the follicular phase."[/QUOTI seem to be having lots of peaks and falls at the mo....hoping now I'm gearing up for ovulation they steady themselves out....hope you get your + opk soon....I'm expecting mine probably Sunday but will try to start BD tonight. Thanks for info....cannot wait till weekend for some relaxation!!


----------



## Briss

I think it was probably due to acu that my temps got steadier after O, I am hoping it is although I did not take the herbs this cycle. my pre O temps got lower in general but I think it's cos it's winter&#8230;. unfortunately due to time difference I wont be able to temp while abroad until next cycle but I am also relieved one thing less to get obsessed over 

Blythe, get plenty of BD in, good luck! I hope this will be your month!


----------



## Blythe

Just come back from acu and he has helped with my back.... I said to the receptionist that i could not afford another round of acu but not herbs....anyhow she kept rabbiting on saying herbs were the more powerful part of the treatment and acu probably accounts for about 40% of the overall treatment.....she then started going on about celienne dion (really pulling out the big guns here!!) saying her pregnancy was all down to acu...i though she had ivf too....

Anyhow the upshot of all this was i paid for another round of herbs and acu...im so weak...once she mentioned dion it was game over really:winkwink:

London is crap and grey today....and i have a chin full of boil type spots...im taking this as a good sign in that i haven't had spots like this mid cycle since i was in my 20s so I'm hoping something is tricking my body into feeling/behaving younger again!


----------



## Briss

I remember I was complaning to my GP about my age but then I got acne and was really upset and he was laughing saying you wanted to look younger here you are you now look like a teanager :)

I also read that herbs are considered to be more powerful than acu


----------



## Blythe

Briss -are you back in the uk yet? Will you start temping again or will you leave it for this cycle?


----------



## Briss

am still abroad but I have checked and apprently it's really easy to do AMH and DHEa blood tests here, I have a free morning tomorrow and will try to do it. there are test centers everywhere when you can just walk in and do almost any test you can think of and they will send you results by email. not sure how accurate they are but should be as good any I suppose

am back on Wednesday and will resume temping from thursday which is supposed to be CD1


----------



## Blythe

That's good.....I wish it were simpler here and we could just get our docs to refer us and then pay for it. I'm starting to see a stronger line on opk but still not positive so the extra B vits have certainly delayed ovulation but probably only day or two.


----------



## Briss

you may get a true positive tomorrow and O on CD14 which is perfect, I can see that you O on CD16 in September do you recall if you were also taking B vit during that cycle? I am definatelly trying it next cycle. 

I have been trying not to think about TTC until my return but it's not working out cant get it out of my mind had a dream last night as if I got pregnant, imagine my disappointment when I woke up :( i have familiar AF type symptoms and generally feel restless and emotional


----------



## Blythe

Those dreams are lovely but the reality when we wake up harsh....I'm still really trying to really believe it will happen and was earlier playing over a conversation in my head....the one when I tell my boss I'm pregnant!! I took another look at my opk and its gone positive. It was the vitex that delayed my ovulation till cd16 and it gave me headaches but some girls say they go....are you going to finish your herbs? 

The last week is horrid....I'm still baffled when I read those LTTTC BFP stories where they say they they had given up, no symptom spotting and only did a test as period late.... I can't ever imagine not obsessing....I wish I could stop though its exhausting. I hope this all becomes a distant memory for us all soon. There have been some benefits though....the yoga, giving up caffeine and even dabbling in meditation means when pregnancy does happen (and it will) will be chilled out and not too fat!


----------



## Briss

I do that every TWW, trying to imagine various people's reaction when I tell them I am pregnant :) I am so enjoying it but then I feel like AF is coming and feel crushed and disappointed

CD16 is a bit too much so i guess i am going with B vit and not vitex

I will be taking herbs from CD1, still have 3 week supply

Kundalini yoga teaches the same thing, you have to give it up (I mean give up your dream) before you get it. I cant do, I just cant.


----------



## Blythe

Malamae - i see you are getting your ovulation a couple of days later than usual...

i thought mine was going to be delayed as i did not pick up any line on OPK until yesterday afternoon [usually test twice per day] which then turned positive and i tested again this am and its already fading so a very short sharp rise in LH for me which i could have easily missed if i didn't test twice per day. I usually get a few days where the line is very apparent before turning positive. I'm now expecting to ovulate later today/tomorrow, My DH is very very tired at the moment so I'm hoping i can squeeze another BD session out of him.


----------



## Blythe

Briss said:


> I do that every TWW, trying to imagine various people's reaction when I tell them I am pregnant :) I am so enjoying it but then I feel like AF is coming and feel crushed and disappointed
> 
> CD16 is a bit too much so i guess i am going with B vit and not vitex
> 
> I will be taking herbs from CD1, still have 3 week supply
> 
> Kundalini yoga teaches the same thing, you have to give it up (I mean give up your dream) before you get it. I cant do, I just cant.

it is the worse bit when you know she is on her way....over these last couple of years i have got to know my body so well and know all the little [and big painful] signs. I cannot imagine my BFP taking me by surprise but you read so many stories of women being shocked when they mistake all the usual AF signs and it turns out to be a BFP. 

keep positive..if its not this month it WILL come soon:flower:


----------



## Briss

Blythe, thank you. i also cant imagine BFP taking me by surprise I can feel AF a few days in advance (though it does not stop me from hoping for a BFP anyway). ever since hubby agreed to give up beer I feel so hopeful that for the first time we may have a real chance in a couple of months.

I managed to do DHEA and AMH tests this morning (although not looking forward to results at all) as well as a few others like iron levels etc. and paid all together something like 55 pounds :) and a nurse who took my blood was actually very good, not a mark left. at st Mary's I sometimes have to go through 2 nurses and get both arms pearced before they manage to get my blood. This is quite shocking actualy. what interesting is that they suggest taking AMH on CD3-5 like FSH but obviously I am at the end of my cycle. I read that AMH does not fluctuate so hoping I get more or less accurate result regardless of CD.


----------



## Blythe

£55 is great....i would love to know what my DHEA levels are. im doing 25mg per day at the moment of the 7-KETO-DHEA and its fine although i found myself getting a bit angry on 50mg per day [that could have just me having a few off days though]. 

i wish they had those places in the UK...

when can you expect the results?


----------



## Briss

they said up to 5 business days in general but were hoping to send me the results tomorrow. I will be in meetings all day tomorrow and probably wednesday so wont be able to check the results before my return. But as I said my FSH is high so I am not looking forward to AMH result, would be interesting to know DHEa though cos if it's low I may start taking your brand (although I am angry most of the time even without it). It's such a shame we do not have blood test centers like that in the UK, it would make our life so much easier. I really need my hubby to take a number of tests but it's such a headache with getting a referal etc.


----------



## Briss

got my test results! so soon, everything except for AMH probably takes longer. all good but I tested positive for "anti-Toxoplasma gondii IgG" but no surprises for me I already knew I was positive, just need to keep an eye on it. I know it can be dangerous if you get it while pregnant but since I already have it it should be fine cos it means I am sort of immune to it.

My DHEA is 5.1 and the norm is between 0,9-11,7 so I guess I am right in the middle and probably there is scope for some more :)


----------



## Blythe

Wonderful!! Thats great and very reassuring...

Im in the 2ww so got a BD session in at 2am as felt very string ovulation pains when going to bed last night but DH too tired to BD so he set his alarm!

I think they have messed up third sperm sample but they will confirm today....was in tears yesterday...just dont know what to do....will be putting in official complaint but need a SA result for my fertility specialist appt!!


----------



## Briss

Blythe, nice temp rise! you probably O yesterday but still good to get one last BD session you never know. It's outrages how can they keep messing up your SA's!! I am so sorry you have to go through this. At least your DH is tolerant but a lot of men simply wont do it again. Definatelly compain if they screwed it but fingers crossed it's fine.

I got 5 days free complementary VIP FF so you can see what I've been up to. I usually put all my symptoms and other things in even when I have simple FF membership but then copy my charts once every few months when I get complemenatry VIP membership when I can actually see all these features. 

I delayed my return flight for tomorrow eve so will be working from the hotel tomorrow. it's quite nice :) already had some wine somehow I do not feel pregnant, 1-2 more days until I know for sure. it's annoyining how at the begining of the cycle I was sure I am disregarding it but now when AF is due any minute my hopes are getting up almost against my will. smth tells me there will be tears this week...

One positive thing to keep me going is that my DH went for SA test today! on his own mind you! now if I get AF I will call my FS and ask to repeat FSH test on CD3 and if it's gone down we can finally be refered for IVF. not that I look forward to IVF, it's more I want to be refered to a proper clinic and if we are still unlucky after 3 months of no beer I hope we can do IUI or naturtal IVF.

still waiting for my AMH results.


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## Blythe

Briss - i hope your flight back to the UK was ok. 

I have looked at your charts and this latest one looks like a massive improvement on the others...will be keeping everything crossed those temps stay high when you start temping again. Did you get the AMH results?

i thankfully got the SA result today but it involved a great deal of chasing and upset along the way...anyhow i have no idea what it all means...does this make any sense to you?

Liquefaction: complete
volume: 1.5ml
concentration: 29
total number: 43.5
progressive: 56%
non-progressive: 9%
non-motile: 35%
normal forms: 5%

i have no idea if it is good or bad or a bit of both...any advice gratefully received:flower:


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## MalaMae

Hi Blythe,

Check this website, gives some numbers and explains nicely:
https://www.fertilovit.com/en-us/kinderwunsch/spermienqualität.aspx


*Standard Values for Spermiogram (WHO)*
*Ejaculate volume*
&#8805; 1,5 ml
*PH-value*
&#8805; 7,2
*Sperm concentration*
&#8805; 15 million sperms per ml
*Total sperm count*
&#8805; 39 million sperms
*Motility*
&#8805; 32 % progressively moving spermatozoa, &#8805; 40 % mobile sperms
*Morphology*
>4 % normal shape
*Percentage of living sperms (Eosin**-test)*
&#8805; 58 %
*Anti sperm antibodies
Mixed antiglobulin reaction (MAR)*
< 50 % sperms with particles attached


*Leucocytes*
< 1 million per ml


----------



## Blythe

MalaMae said:


> Hi Blythe,
> 
> Check this website, gives some numbers and explains nicely:
> https://www.fertilovit.com/en-us/kinderwunsch/spermienqualität.aspx
> 
> 
> *Standard Values for Spermiogram (WHO)*
> *Ejaculate volume*
> &#8805; 1,5 ml
> *PH-value*
> &#8805; 7,2
> *Sperm concentration*
> &#8805; 15 million sperms per ml
> *Total sperm count*
> &#8805; 39 million sperms
> *Motility*
> &#8805; 32 % progressively moving spermatozoa, &#8805; 40 % mobile sperms
> *Morphology*
> >4 % normal shape
> *Percentage of living sperms (Eosin**-test)*
> &#8805; 58 %
> *Anti sperm antibodies
> Mixed antiglobulin reaction (MAR)*
> < 50 % sperms with particles attached
> 
> 
> *Leucocytes*
> < 1 million per ml


Oh that is reassuring....thanks malamae:flower:

I was getting hung up on the normal forms bit but that is just motility which needs to be over 4% to be normal range and DH is 5% so thats ok i guess.

How is it going?


----------



## Blythe

Blythe said:


> MalaMae said:
> 
> 
> Hi Blythe,
> 
> Check this website, gives some numbers and explains nicely:
> https://www.fertilovit.com/en-us/kinderwunsch/spermienqualität.aspx
> 
> 
> *Standard Values for Spermiogram (WHO)*
> *Ejaculate volume*
> &#8805; 1,5 ml
> *PH-value*
> &#8805; 7,2
> *Sperm concentration*
> &#8805; 15 million sperms per ml
> *Total sperm count*
> &#8805; 39 million sperms
> *Motility*
> &#8805; 32 % progressively moving spermatozoa, &#8805; 40 % mobile sperms
> *Morphology*
> >4 % normal shape
> *Percentage of living sperms (Eosin**-test)*
> &#8805; 58 %
> *Anti sperm antibodies
> Mixed antiglobulin reaction (MAR)*
> < 50 % sperms with particles attached
> 
> 
> *Leucocytes*
> < 1 million per ml
> 
> 
> Oh that is reassuring....thanks malamae:flower:
> 
> I was getting hung up on the normal forms bit but that is just motility which needs to be over 4% to be normal range and DH is 5% so thats ok i guess.
> 
> How is it going?Click to expand...



I meant morphology!!


----------



## Briss

Blythe, great you do not have to do another SA, such a relief! I think the results are good, definitely the first three numbers:

volume: 1.5ml - this is average, it depends on how long since his previous ejaculate 
concentration: 29 - this is great! just to put it into perspective for you, my DH had 12 and 2.8 million :( the minimum used to be 20 million but now they reduced it to 15 million.
total number: 43.5 - more than enough to get you pregnant naturally!

afm, happy to be back, still waiting for my AMH results. AF is definitely on her way but grateful it did not show up today. will continue temping tomorrow but expect my temp to go down which will ruin my perfect chart. am back on vitamins from tomorrow and as soon as AF shows up will start on herbs.


----------



## Blythe

Welcome back to uk! Thank you for info.... I'm just so happy to have the results ahead of my appt next week although all the nhs can realistically do for me now is refer me for hsg which is fine. I would also like all my bloods done again as if I go for natural IVF I want to keep all costs down to a minimum! I mentioned IVF again last night but DH not keen at all!

I'm so sorry AF is on her way... Please don't get too down and focus on that next egg ... I'm thinking about black cohosh for next supplement!

I have been doing acupressure most days on certain points with end of a make up brush.... Not sure if its helping or not but I feel I'm doing something positive each day... I'm focusing on increasing kidney yang at the mo hoping to keep spotting at bay!


----------



## Briss

hsg is good, at least you will know your tubes are open.

I am trying not to feel down about AF, I mean there is no surprises here considering what my DH was up to. I am glad I am getting 25 day cycle and 14 day LH. not happy with acne though, looks nasty. I am anxiously waiting for DH's SA and testosterone results. I will try to do more yoga this cycle and j fonda aerobics before O. 

I wont be doing acu this cycle, just herbs so I may try acupressure. do you use Lewis' book for this?


----------



## Briss

got my AMH, and I wish now I did not do the test, 1.38 (range 1.0-10.6, less than 1 = menopause), pretty devastating&#8230; and getting the result on CD1 is particularly painful


----------



## Blythe

Briss - im so sorry you are upset...it is the worst time to receive any news that means things are going to be more difficult than we thought. I really do not know too much about AMH but have seen so many inspiring stories of women with much lower levels than the result you have been given.

notrusty's was under 0.16 and as she said in her original post it does not mean low quality just means lower numbers. I am interested to get mine done but im really not sure what i could do differently to what i am doing now...im just holding out for that one month were pure luck strikes [im beginning to think it is just that] and that could happen regardless of my AMH results...although i appreciate worries re menopause coming sooner than others.

Keep focused on the fact that you are releasing an egg every month and your cycles are nice and regular so keep going with your supps. I was having another look at CREATE last week and they do help us girls with challenging odds....

im sorry if i am waffling...i am thinking of you:flower:


----------



## Blythe

Briss - been having a nose around and found some nice stories...[these ladies have much lower AMH levels than your test results]

LADY ONE:
I wanted to share my journey with you to give you some hope.
I had my AMH levels tested at FAA after our chemical pregnancies last year (both were around 5 wks). Although not as low as yours they were low at .58 (at age 34). Added to my endo issues and previous MC's it really hit me that all these "obstacles" kept on popping up and I spent a long time wondering why was it so friggin easy for everyone else around us to get pregnant (with the common comment of "OOOOHHH we werent even trying" the hardest to swallow) whilst for me my whole life revolved around ovulation, when the best time to BD was, then getting that much wanted BFP only to have heartbreak not long after. Anyways, we were offered 3 rounds of clomiphene which would be monitored, on our first round we fell pregnant and as you can see we have twins on board! My FS at FAA told me that a low AMH did not mean poor quality eggs, that with chemical pregnancies it is a matter or trying and tryin until you get that "golden egg". Low AMH I was told gives an indication of how you will respond to ovulation stimulation?

LADY TWO:
I'm 38 years old, hadn't been TTC prior to my test, but had an FSH of 17 and an AMH of .2. I was pretty much told to go the donor route as well. Leas than a month later, I was pregnant naturally. Today, I am 25w6d. 

LADY THREE:
My highest FSH was 23 and my AMH is 0.12. I was able to bring my FSH down to 10.8 through acupuncture and Royal Jelly. My fertility specialist prescribed Tamoxifen (a breast cancer drug shown to help ovulation) and I started wheatgrass shots on my own. On New Year's Eve, I got my BFP and two weeks ago, we saw a healthy bean and heartbeat. Keep in mind that other than fertility meds, this was a natural conception, so it can happen!!!!


----------



## notrustyyet

Briss said:


> got my AMH, and I wish now I did not do the test, 1.38 (range 1.0-10.6, less than 1 = menopause), pretty devastating&#8230; and getting the result on CD1 is particularly painful

AMH is replacing FSH as a # that Fertility specialists look for to rule out who is/is not a good candidate for IVF. Low AMH, just means you won't make bucketloads of eggs with drug stimulation, and that is the main point of IVF. Just another # to make you depressed. I cried all afternoon when I heard my .16 (US scale) AMH level. In hindsight, guess I didn't need to know it and stress myself out more. I do believe it really is a lot of luck when a good egg happens to get ovulated amidst all our "bad" ones, but they are mixed up in there! 

Bottom line, as long as you get a biphasic chart/temp shift, you ARE ovulating an egg a month, and those rare months you feel twinges on both L and R side, you probably popped out 2 even. I read somewhere by Randine Lewis that women entering perimenopause still have about 10,000 eggs in ovaries, so you can see where the luck part comes in. My grandmother who also had my mother at a 44, never had any of these tests and just got pregnant by accident, (had a 20 something year old son from 1st marriage) 

As an additional tip, I find it very suspicious that the 2 times I got my BFP (1st chemical, 2nd stuck) I had been battling a cold those months. If you are sick, especially DTD! I believe the chances are higher that you will get pregnant while you are sick. A woman's body has an immune system that is designed to fight off foreign invaders....ie - Sperm. When the immune system is down because you are sick, the sperm are more likely to get past. This has happened to 2 different couples who were trying for more than 5 years. It wasn't until the wife got sick that they got pregnant. Normally couples don't have sex if the woman isn't feeling well. If you want a baby, there is no better time to have sex than when you are sick and your immune system is down. I believe our bodies are too busy fighting infection to kill off as many sperm as usual (if you watch the Great Sperm Race on you tube, it's a wonder any of the poor guys ever make it). 

This is going to be a weird admission, but with this pregnancy, I happened to have a MD appt to get DHEA checked and it was one day after I got my + LH surge. I didn't wash my hands at hospital and actually licked them (eew gross, I know) when I got into car, to hopefully make sure I was sick that cycle. I felt a little cold coming on previous couple of days and figured I'd add fuel to the fire. Luckily, I didn't get a nasty flu, but DID def. have a cold, no fever. I'm normally very healthy and only get a cold once or twice a year, so I had to go with it!

Also, reading below article made me feel better when I got my low AMH results. Go to middle of page where Randine Lewis discusses AMH and women getting preg with an AMH of near zero.

https://www.thefertilesoul.com/pages/Diagnostic_pgs/AMH.php


----------



## MalaMae

Don't worry Briss. I was devastated like you when the doctor told me my results. She said I have half the reserve for my age and I'd be a poor responder for IVF. Did a lot of reading and is true what notrustyyet says- it only a reserve of eggs. But has nothing to do with ovulation and conception. Don't depress yourself now. I did that for months until I learned what is actually AMH.
Blythe is right, there are a lot of women that are pregnant with low AMH.
The test is so new that they don't have all the answers to the results and low AMH doesn't mean you are getting in early menopause.
Cheer up, girl! Since you're on CD 1- you need some iron now- have a steak and red wine ;)


----------



## Briss

Ladies thank you! what would I do without your support! 

I was particularly sad to get this result after 4 months of acu which was supposed to make my eggs young again. such a shame Dr. Randine Lewis is not practicing in London. I read so much about acu postponing menopause and giving "older" ladies a chance, and I really want to have more than one child but clearly with my old eggs and hubby's poor sperm we cant even manage one ... :( it just does not seem possible. the only good thing out of this sad AMH business is that my DH suddenly became so attentive now that it's my fault that we are not pregnant the pressure is off him and he is prepared to do just about anything for me :)

also I was kind of hoping that my high FSH was just a result of stress etc but with low AMH it confirms my FS' view that my "time is running out". although I am not sharing my AMH with FS cos she wont refer me for IVF with such low AMH.

Got hubby's testosterone results and it's low, within the norm but the lowest possible level, not great either.


----------



## Blythe

Hi briss - the acu and herbs and all those other supps will hopefully have had a positive effect in your fsh levels...im not sure acu/herbs can change amh or not. There is a good reason NHS dont do amh tests!!

Have you had SA results yet or just the testosterone? There has to be ways to bring those levels up....your DH sounds brill and hope this will put a stop to that fasting business!


----------



## Briss

Blythe, that's right my FS did not refer me for AMH because of cost but my GP said they do not trust AMH. Besides I did my test abroad and it said that I was supposed to do it on CD3-5 (which I did not believe was an issue but may be it was).

My DH did his SA and I will be calling my FS for results at some point. I do not expect them to be good but wanted a reference point to compare it with when we repeat it after 3 months off beer.

I know that i should not be expecting a BFP until we get DH's sperm sorted and yet I still hope every month and naturally get disappointed. 

Low AMh just confirmed what I already knew really that I should not waste time and probably medicated IVF is not an answer for us and we are better off with natural IVF and even IUI if we get DH's sperm numbers up. but still it kind of hits you in a bad way. I am just so glad I have your support ladies, I do not think anyone else can understand this.


----------



## threebirds

Hi Briss
Im a bit of a lurker in this thread and a big advocate of TCM. I have low AMH (tested twice, 1 and 3 - UK scale), so similar to you. I also have high FSH (20 last time) and I am almost 40. We had one private ICSI cycle last yr and I was a poor responder (1 egg, convinced them not to cancel, it fertilised but didnt lead to preg). The clinic was all for DE IVF. But then we started TCM acupuncture & herbs (both me & DH) and 3 months later a natural preg!! Sadly it was a blighted ovum and while we were devastated we were also greatly encouraged. Now we are preparing for another ICSI cycle, this time on NHS and will be continuing with TCM to support that. Getting preg with low AMH is possible, it is all about helping our bodies as much as possible and personally I do believe TCM can help and there are increasingly academic papers that support this. Good luck and try not to be discouraged :hugs:


----------



## Briss

Threebirds, thank you! 

At this point I just do not know what else I could be doing, I pretty much tried everything. and gave up most of my favorite things, (chocolate is the last one left), I could do more yoga and exercise, I suppose, might go back to juicing.

Last october when I started acu I was so hopeful that it will bring some major changes. Maybe if I change my practitioner things will start improving faster. when I read about TCM I am so inspired that it can make real changes and stop the clock but then when I go to my acu doc it's like a different world


----------



## Blythe

Briss said:


> Blythe, that's right my FS did not refer me for AMH because of cost but my GP said they do not trust AMH. Besides I did my test abroad and it said that I was supposed to do it on CD3-5 (which I did not believe was an issue but may be it was).
> 
> My DH did his SA and I will be calling my FS for results at some point. I do not expect them to be good but wanted a reference point to compare it with when we repeat it after 3 months off beer.
> 
> I know that i should not be expecting a BFP until we get DH's sperm sorted and yet I still hope every month and naturally get disappointed.
> 
> Low AMh just confirmed what I already knew really that I should not waste time and probably medicated IVF is not an answer for us and we are better off with natural IVF and even IUI if we get DH's sperm numbers up. but still it kind of hits you in a bad way. I am just so glad I have your support ladies, I do not think anyone else can understand this.


I would struggle without your words of support and encouragement....being able to off-load here keeps me sane and means i can function normally in work etc i just don't think anyone can understand the complete heartbreak of infertility unless they have gone through it too and whenever i mention it to friends i can see them glazing over....i just cant keep saying the same stuff so i don't bother anymore. 

i know you were naturally inclined towards natural IVF [if you end up pursuing this route] so it just serves to support that but i totally understand your feelings towards this....Something good has to happen soon!

Back to your earlier question re acupressure points i am using randine lewis's points to tonify kidney yin pre ovulation and points to tonify Kidney yang post ovation. I use a drumstick and massage point for about 30 seconds...could do more i suppose but i fit it in before i go to work and tick it off my TTC spreadsheet [its official...I'm horridly obsessed!!]. i also do this to wake up all my meridians before i drink the chinese herbs:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t0WmFNmFzaE


----------



## threebirds

I know it's hard. I had been seeing a fertility acupuncturist (western but influenced by tcm) but then last Oct changed to full on TCM practitioner & found a huge difference in their approaches & really feel i am benefitting from the stronger tcm approach. But you know its about sustaining what you are doing and using the acu / yoga / meditation to relax & encourage blood flow. I also use Brenda Strong's yoga for fertility dvd. Maybe less is more. I dont know, I certainly dont have the answers but following the mc im going to stick with the tcm, more walking, a little yoga & some pampering massages :) Maybe we dont pamper ourselves enough x


----------



## Blythe

Just come back from acu and my doc did not needle my tummy points. He had also been going through my notes so knew i was in 2WW - he usually has no clue where i am in my cycle so i found that quite reassuring. he used different points on the inner leg [both below and above knee - i think spleen meridian] rather than outer, a couple of kidney points around ankle and a new one on my hand [triple warmer 3] and one on head which he has avoided last couple of sessions. 

Briss - how are you?


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## Briss

Blythe, that's really interesting that he did not needle your tummy points, I agree it's reassuring I was getting almost the same points every time and definitely tummy points were needled every time. 

It was actually quite nice to have a sunday for myself for a change instead of rushing for acu, by the time I was back home it was already late afternoon and day's gone. I am really enjoying this lazy sunday although still quite depressed about our prospects.

I had a couple of days without new spots coming out but then I started my herbs again from CD 1 and today got 2 bright new spots on my chin :( no idea whether this is at all related to herbs but looking back my acne got worse since I started acu/herbs in october. This cycle I will just do herbs and then we'll see I may try a different acu doc if I find somebody i can trust.

I liked your wake up exercises but not sure about tummy area, i'd just probably avoid shaking it that much


----------



## Blythe

in class she says to pat tummy at least 100 times [i think she says 200 in video] - i only do that prior to ovulation and really give it some. she does it in the fertility yoga classes. I did it this cycle and started bleeding again after AF had finished and it was clotty and dark and a bit stringy [like it had been stuck to the walls of my uterus for years - apologies for unpleasant mental image!!]. this is a first for me and i felt like i had had a really good clear out in hindsight [obviously at time very concerned as thought i was just having extended period and was worrying about it knocking everything else off].

it would be great if you could find a practitioner locally...my one is only 10 mins walk up the road.


----------



## Briss

it's a bit worrying to have bleeding outside your period, have you discussed it with anyone? I'd definitely mention it to FS or GP just to see what they say. I agree that getting a good clear out is great but i think this should be happening during AF.

I am thinking of going to Zita West, she is actually locally about 10-15 min walk and she is considered to be one of the best in fertility acu but I wont be able to afford more than a few sessions. still I am thinking at least it will be interesting to compare and see if she can offer something different.


----------



## Blythe

I would be really interested to hear about a visit to ZW herself. Does she do herbs too? 

I have my fertility appt on weds so may mention it then. The lady that runs the fertility clinic at st George's also runs Create.... I hope I get my appt with her. 

I was watching some you tube videos earlier of girls vlogging their TTC journeys.... Some doing live pregnancy tests....I can't think of anything worse! I became temporarily addicted as there appears to be quite a large TTC community on there.


----------



## Briss

just looking at the prices https://www.zitawest.com/fertility/fees/ I wonder if I should start with the initial consultation before starting acu with her


----------



## Blythe

Wouldn't that be compulsory....I hope that price includes the initial acu treatment too although its not clear.


----------



## Blythe

ZW seems cheap compared to that dr zhai woman although if I had the cash I would defo go there or dr maggie ju who is based in clapham junction. Still it would be good to walk to your sessions and I would be fascinated to hear all about it


----------



## Briss

without acu my pre o temp is just so random and really high. strange cos I am taking the herbs


----------



## Blythe

that is a bit odd...your temps are starting higher than your previous cover line! Maybe the acu and herbs combined have had a lasting positive effect on your temps - higher is better right :wacko: 

lets hope its a positive as anything different from a BFN cycle may well mean this could be your BFP cycle [positive thinking, positive thinking ra ra ra].


----------



## Briss

I like your positive thinking!! but I really liked my pre O temps lower, that was one of the positive changes I noticed since started acu. it improves my charts cos there is a more obvious difference between pre and post O temps. oh well, I am not being very diligent in taking my temps anyway (getting a bit tired of this after 17 cycles).

am planning to do aerobics today to improve my circulated and hopefully get good clear out so AF wont last longer than my usual 6 days.


----------



## alison29

Hi guys it's me again. I just wanted to ask was your lap and dye painful briss? I had one 5 yrs ago don't remember it being too bad. I am having one March 19 i am scared. I have had a c section since my first one and am a lot older and i feel alot mroe messed up in there. He is going to flush my tubes with water (novel thing iknow). Also really gross here but did you do anything to clean out your bowels first? I did not know before but a lot of people poop during surgery. 
Whenever i check in on bnb i read what u guys are up too, stalker here. The dr told me that i was not allowed to get pregnant this cycle i almost fell off my chair from laughing. I told him that would not be aproblem as my uterus is a nuclear haulocaust zone..Seriously i haven't gotten pregnant in 4 years i doubt its gonna happen this month either.


----------



## alison29

oh and btw the way i have endo and he diagnosed that my uterus is tilted back towards my spine so if I believe in the gravity theory of helping conception i would have to lay on my stomach after bed with a pillow under my knees. oh the humiliation.


----------



## Briss

My lap and dye was not painful (under general anaesthetic) but when I woke up it was rather unpleasant and I felt dizzy whole day, then got some back/shoulder pain which I thought was usual but apparently I was placed on the table in some sort of weird position and my neck nerve got twisted hence the pain. I had to do physiotherapy for about couple of weeks. I also got UTI (was painful to pee but again I thought it was normal after surgery but apparently not) and had to take antibiotics. I did not do anything to clean out my bowels cos it's a very minor surgery. I had a tumour removed from my abdomen years ago &#8211; 3 hour lap! &#8211; for that they made me drink smth disgusting that was supposed to clear my bowels the night before op, but not for this one. I had mine on CD5 but they also insisted no sex at all this cycle otherwise they were going to cancel the surgery. I was still on my period so woke up wearing "stylish" hospital pants with a pad :)

actually for you it might be better to BD in rear position


----------



## Briss

Blythe said:


> ZW seems cheap compared to that dr zhai woman although if I had the cash I would defo go there or dr maggie ju who is based in clapham junction. Still it would be good to walk to your sessions and I would be fascinated to hear all about it

dr zhai's prices are also quite spectacular https://www.zhaiclinic.com/prices.aspx

also there is no guarantee you will be treated by her, it can be any TCM practitioner working in her clinic. you will pay 250 for just initial consultation and I guess 130 for every other acu session + herbs (it does not say how much they cost). My acu doc did not even charge for the initial appointment although it was about 20 min. 6 week course will be around 1,000 pounds + herbs. Am gonna try and get hubby on board. I paid less than 800 for acu + herbs for about 14 weeks.


----------



## Blythe

Crazy prices but wonderful testimonials. I see your temp is down....hopefully keep down for a few days now.

I have been taking co-codamol as my back is in pieces...i would rather not bern taking it during 2ww but I'm in agony. Ive been feeling pinching pains on and off on right hand side of uterus but my boobs are not at all sore....I've been feeling the pinching/cramping sensation since cd4 so a bit early. Ive had so many pains like it in the past so I'm not sure what it is. I hope i get pregnant soon...I'm getting bored of this obsessing....i need to obsess about something else!!


----------



## alison29

Briss said:


> My lap and dye was not painful (under general anaesthetic) but when I woke up it was rather unpleasant and I felt dizzy whole day, then got some back/shoulder pain which I thought was usual but apparently I was placed on the table in some sort of weird position and my neck nerve got twisted hence the pain. I had to do physiotherapy for about couple of weeks. I also got UTI (was painful to pee but again I thought it was normal after surgery but apparently not) and had to take antibiotics. I did not do anything to clean out my bowels cos it's a very minor surgery. I had a tumour removed from my abdomen years ago  3 hour lap!  for that they made me drink smth disgusting that was supposed to clear my bowels the night before op, but not for this one. I had mine on CD5 but they also insisted no sex at all this cycle otherwise they were going to cancel the surgery. I was still on my period so woke up wearing "stylish" hospital pants with a pad :)
> 
> actually for you it might be better to BD in rear position

Thanks for the info I am glad about the not poo thing. So did they clean anything up for you at your lap? ...That really sucks about your neck and the UTI so scary. I hate catheters yuck feels awful. I wonder why you go the uti it must be related. Last time i had one it was a female dr so i didn't feel weird about waking up in a pad (they lazered a couple cysts so they drain). I love my new dr but when i do get pg i may go back to a women just not as weird for some reason. Wow they were strick about the bd.


----------



## Briss

Looking at the list of the ingredients in her vitamins for men, https://www.zhaihealthcare.co.uk/men/2 does not look that impressive for 40 pounds I can buy Goji berry and Ginseng much cheaper (actually made my hubby eat almost 1 kg of Goji berries recently and he quite liked it). Although I may buy her book.

Also, I am trying to make tomato soup very often to my DH &#8211; there is something in cooked tomatoes that make his numbers improve (hopefully)

Blythe, I also do not like taking anything in TWW but sometimes there is just no other way. is your back getting better? 

My Dh is not very enthusiastic about dr zhai, called her a fortune teller


----------



## Blythe

Agree fantastically overpriced. I. Was looking at ZW supplements in my local whole foods store and worked out I'm better off on pregnacare and my other bits. Still the container was very nice! 

I was in work today and went to my old Chinese doc near charing cross and had a medical massage (their words not mine) and I could stand straight afterwards but by 2pm I was bent over again in pain.... I think it's a trapped nerve in lower back. I might go to an osteopath.


----------



## Briss

trapped nerve can be really painful, that's what I got after lap. I went to physiotherapist and he was trying to release it, took a while. I could not turn my head to the right, was really uncomfortable. I hope your osteopath can fix it.

I did J Fonda today and last night on CD5 and 6 hoping to "help" my AF along but could not manage more than 20 min, got so tired. Hopefully that was enough. I will try to continue with aerobics until O and then move to yoga. 

My Dh decided to eat some weird protein powder made from hemp to keep his weight off, I checked with my sperm guru and apparently it's not harmful but I started adding some spirulina and maca to the mix :) really hoping we could make it a daily thing. He's also been taking (forced to take more like it) chinese herbs. it'd actually be interesting to know what dr zhai thinks of these herbs.


----------



## Briss

alison29 said:


> Briss said:
> 
> 
> My lap and dye was not painful (under general anaesthetic) but when I woke up it was rather unpleasant and I felt dizzy whole day, then got some back/shoulder pain which I thought was usual but apparently I was placed on the table in some sort of weird position and my neck nerve got twisted hence the pain. I had to do physiotherapy for about couple of weeks. I also got UTI (was painful to pee but again I thought it was normal after surgery but apparently not) and had to take antibiotics. I did not do anything to clean out my bowels cos it's a very minor surgery. I had a tumour removed from my abdomen years ago &#8211; 3 hour lap! &#8211; for that they made me drink smth disgusting that was supposed to clear my bowels the night before op, but not for this one. I had mine on CD5 but they also insisted no sex at all this cycle otherwise they were going to cancel the surgery. I was still on my period so woke up wearing "stylish" hospital pants with a pad :)
> 
> actually for you it might be better to BD in rear position
> 
> Thanks for the info I am glad about the not poo thing. So did they clean anything up for you at your lap? ...That really sucks about your neck and the UTI so scary. I hate catheters yuck feels awful. I wonder why you go the uti it must be related. Last time i had one it was a female dr so i didn't feel weird about waking up in a pad (they lazered a couple cysts so they drain). I love my new dr but when i do get pg i may go back to a women just not as weird for some reason. Wow they were strick about the bd.Click to expand...

sorry, I did not mean to scare you, most people get really good results with lap, I was just unlucky. they did not do anything in the end. My tubes were open and there was no polyp (that was one of the things they suspected), and the cyst was too small to be removed. Just before the operation they asked me to sign a consent form that said there is a small chance they are unable to remove the cyst without damaging or removing my ovary but I refused to sign it. I told them if they cant remove the cyst without damaging my ovary, to leave my ovary as is. the cyst did not prevent my ovary from ovulating so I did not see any reason to be taking this risk. I was quite shock when the lady said not to worry I will still have one ovary left!!!??? I had to make myself very clear on this and they changed the form. maybe they got scared of me and decided not to mess with my cyst :) last time I checked it was still there :(


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## shiseru

Hi ladies, can i join? I just started acupuncture yesterday, felt good and will be doing this 2x per week (that's what I was told by the sinseh) DH and I are on TCM for months. I conceived my first with help of TCM and I believed Yoga as well after 2 tragic losses.

My hsg and ultrasound cleared, progesterone good but my amh is very low only 0.2. I kinda expected that already since my ovulation is getting more early CD10-11, rather than the usual day 14. I think the quality is starting to decline. Am planning to try IUI or IVF in 2 months time. So acupuncture is to prepare for that. 

My husband and I are taking the multi-vits and COQ10 150mg as well, i heard it improve sperm count as well as egg quality. I am doing currently doing aerobics as well as yoga. 

I am turning 39 in 3 months time.


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## notrustyyet

Briss said:


> Looking at the list of the ingredients in her vitamins for men, https://www.zhaihealthcare.co.uk/men/2 does not look that impressive for 40 pounds I can buy Goji berry and Ginseng much cheaper (actually made my hubby eat almost 1 kg of Goji berries recently and he quite liked it). Although I may buy her book.
> 
> Also, I am trying to make tomato soup very often to my DH &#8211; there is something in cooked tomatoes that make his numbers improve (hopefully)
> 
> Blythe, I also do not like taking anything in TWW but sometimes there is just no other way. is your back getting better?
> 
> My Dh is not very enthusiastic about dr zhai, called her a fortune teller

My DH and I ate lots of Gogi berries every day, couple handfulls at least, DH esp liked too, and I think really helped out his swimmers. A tip, I got them at a local Korean market where they are instead called "dried Lycium Barbarum L and an 8 oz bag was only US $6, like 2 big bags of chips or something...The exact SAME berries called "Gogi Berries" were like $25 at Whole foods! The ones from Korean market were a lot fresher too!


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## Blythe

Briss said:


> trapped nerve can be really painful, that's what I got after lap. I went to physiotherapist and he was trying to release it, took a while. I could not turn my head to the right, was really uncomfortable. I hope your osteopath can fix it.
> 
> I did J Fonda today and last night on CD5 and 6 hoping to "help" my AF along but could not manage more than 20 min, got so tired. Hopefully that was enough. I will try to continue with aerobics until O and then move to yoga.
> 
> My Dh decided to eat some weird protein powder made from hemp to keep his weight off, I checked with my sperm guru and apparently it's not harmful but I started adding some spirulina and maca to the mix :) really hoping we could make it a daily thing. He's also been taking (forced to take more like it) chinese herbs. it'd actually be interesting to know what dr zhai thinks of these herbs.


It would be good to get the spirulina and maca in his new drink.... I used to have maca everyday but its got a horrid taste. I have daily wheatgrass shot and I don't mind the taste at all. DH is on the maca and its sort of made me love him a bit more as its really grim stuff (he only takes a teaspoon but its something). He is also taking 4 x 500mg of l-arginine every day which also impresses me! However your DH downing a bag of gogi berries tops it on terms of impressiveness! I have some at work but sometimes they make me feel sick. 

There is an amazon deal today for appt a with a chiropractor so I'm going to try it. I'm off to hospital today for fertility appt so hope to get referral for hsg and new bloods


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## Blythe

shiseru said:


> Hi ladies, can i join? I just started acupuncture yesterday, felt good and will be doing this 2x per week (that's what I was told by the sinseh) DH and I are on TCM for months. I conceived my first with help of TCM and I believed Yoga as well after 2 tragic losses.
> 
> My hsg and ultrasound cleared, progesterone good but my amh is very low only 0.2. I kinda expected that already since my ovulation is getting more early CD10-11, rather than the usual day 14. I think the quality is starting to decline. Am planning to try IUI or IVF in 2 months time. So acupuncture is to prepare for that.
> 
> My husband and I are taking the multi-vits and COQ10 150mg as well, i heard it improve sperm count as well as egg quality. I am doing currently doing aerobics as well as yoga.
> 
> I am turning 39 in 3 months time.

Hi shiseru I have seen your posts elsewhere. That's great you can do acu 2 x per week...I hope it helps you....so many women have successfully used it to prepare their bodies for IVF. I have started doing yoga recently (although my back is out at the moment so no exercise at all for me :() and I really think its going to help me get pregnant. I have been going to fertility yoga classes and checking out stuff on you tube including kundalini yoga which briss brought to my attention. 

Ate you having a natural round of IVF or one with drugs?


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## Blythe

Ps shiseru I'm so sorry for your losses :hugs:


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## Briss

shiseru, welcome! it's inspiring that TCM helped you conceive the first time. Can I ask if you had different points needled depending on where you were in your cycle? also, did your herb mix changed as well? I also ovulate early CD11, last year it was more like CD12-13

dr zhai suggests coming to her once every 2 weeks if you are in London, that's not very often and you cant really navigate one's cycle properly like that. I am surprised, after reading MalaMae's book I thought proper TCM was supposed to be adapting to your cycle and changing acu points and herbs almost daily&#8230;

notrustyyet, I am getting my Goji berries from here https://www.naturallygreen.co.uk/Superfoods/Goji-Berries-Powder-Capsules it's the cheapest place for various super foods and supplements I found so far 1kg is 16 pounds 

Blythe, well done on daily wheatgrass shots!!! very impressive. I still cant master that, but I must. I left a bag of gogi berries on the table when My DH was starving himself and he was so tempted I told him it's just berried and they have no calories (lier!) so he ate it all. I am ordering more. He does not mind disgusting stuff he eats this really horrid hemp powder, this morning I added 2 table spoons of spirulina, 1 tea spoon of wheatgrass and 1 table spoon of maca. Good luck with your fertility appt!


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## Blythe

telling lies is a necessity - I told DH that l-arginine is used to by body builders to help keep their weight down [a sort of truth] and that maca is known to help speed up metabolism [its a carb and quite high in calories]....and COQ10 will help thicken his hair [total lie].

Had my fertility appt and she has ordered more bloods [days 2-5] so will have that late next week and an HSG for next cycle [they have given me a suppository and antibiotics - hurrah!] and i have booked a fertility scan to check my follicles. she explained that i cannot have IVF [which i knew anyway] but clomid would be an option depending on results of various tests. My fertility scan is not until beginning of june which seems so long away. 

If i have not conceived by august i will book an appt with CREATE. i literally just decided that so subject to change [dependent upon emotional state changing - very possible!].


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## Briss

I love it :haha: maca - to speed up metabolism and COQ10 - thicken his hair. so funny! My DH still does not know he is taking lots of maca. Spirulina is more difficult to hide, colour is quite "unique", we call it "alien poo"

It's great that you are getting your day 2-5 bloods :happydance: (better not to do them after CD3 though as FSH may not be that accurate. ) HSG is also good news, I was also given a suppository and antibiotics for HSG (interestingly for Lap they did not give me any antibiotics not surprisingly I ended up with UTI). What is a fertility scan? just an ordinary scan or is it something else? was your FS the one that works at CREATE? did she suggest anything?

I was supposed to have IVF last year, keep postponing it hoping for a natural BFP. I now think that we will probably start the process in May but also subject to my emotional state changing :)


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## Blythe

i did ask about the scan as i have already had a transvaginal scan and showed her the results.....she said this scan in particular would look at my folicles...the other checked for endo, cysts etc [i think!]

do you get an option of natural IVF on the NHS or is it always the full monty?


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## Briss

I think with NHS it has to be the full Monty but I am hoping to start with IUI and then move to natural IVF and if all fails medicated IVF. DH agreed to go for (and most importantly pay for) an initial appointment with Dr Zhai but she may have a very long waiting list. BTW have you heard they are extending the age for IVF on the NHS to 42 years?

I do not think my FS looked at my folicles properly, when I asked about their number she said I had "reasonable amount" whatever it means


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## Blythe

Ive seen the NICE guidelines.......she mentioned them today but made coear they are just guideline. As we have a child they would not apply anyhow :(

I just had spotting and period cramps...its the same as ive had before and i expect i will be spotting till AF comes now. I just sad here crying and trying to think what it could be......my cycles used to be perfect 28days and i only got aches day before and cd1. I think its one of the supplements im taking.....im thinking next month im going to do the following and drop the rest inc. temping/charting/opking....

Dhea 25mg
Black cohosh (cd1-12 120mg)
Teaspoon of royal jelly/pollen
Coq10 200mg of ubiqionol
Prescribed Chinese herbs


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## MalaMae

Hey girls, I know we talked which points we had needles in at what period of the cycle, so I made a picture of what I had throughout this cycle.

Did anyone of you had the same/similar ones?
 



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## shiseru

Thank you ladies!

Blythe, ttc is pretty stressful. Before ovulation, you worried about when and what if you don't O at all. After O the dreadful 2ww. Yoga helps to relax and calm a person both physically and mentally. Somehow acupuncture has this benefits as well.

I am not sure what is the plan for IVF/IUI. My hubby needs to give a semen samples next week so we shall see. However with this low AMH of only 0.2, I am not even sure if the doctor is keen since I may not response to stim. In Singapore, eligible couples seeking ART treatment in public hospitals will receive up to 75% in co-funding from the Government for ART treatment cycles, for a maximum of 3 fresh and 3 frozen ART cycles. So I thought we should just go ahead with it.

If it means our DH will take the supplements diligently, little white lies are absolutely fine. Especially anything that gotta do with their little swimmers, and appearance (since men nowadays are pretty vain).

Briss and Malamae, for me it would be the same acu points regardless of the cycles, 4 needles to the legs and 4 to the tummy (since they are connected) for 20 mins, then turn around and 8 needles to the back for another 20 mins. Mine is the Electro-acupuncture, the application of a pulsating electrical current to acupuncture needles as a means of stimulating the acupoints. (https://www.itmonline.org/arts/electro.htm)

The Chinese med that i am taking are in capsules form so it's easy to consume. One is to strengthen the kidneys, one for ovaries, one for blood and 'chi'. 

Ladies, may I ask what brand of Royal jelly do you take? Must I combine with pollen?


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## Blythe

i have hit a wall and have decided to have a break for a few weeks from TTC and all that goes with it [will keep up certain supps and acu/herbs]. i probably wont be on here for a while....i think i have finally driven myself mad and i broke last night.

i will pop on here every now and then to see when you get your BFPs :dust: to you all x


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## Briss

Blythe, I am very sorry about spotting, It's so frustrating! Your cycles are still pretty good, very healthy LH and O is not too soon but I agree spotting is not a good sign. Although a fellow B&B member (I may have mentioned her before) had the same frustrating spotting starting from 10 DPO but It did not stop her getting pregnant (after quite a while though) and on the cycle she got her BFP she did not have spotting (that was her clue that smth good must be happening). I wish I knew how to deal with spotting. I get some after AF which annoys me greatly because it seems like AF is never ending and I only have 2 days between spotting and O, not enough for BD. I am actually also thinking my cycles getting shorter may be to do with all the supplements I have been taking over the last year rather than the lap (I blame all my TTC misfortunes on this lap). I am not sure about Black cohosh I think somebody mentioned that it led to bleeding but it depends on the individual.

Blythe, I can totally understand that after a while you just feel you need a break from it all. I am so very sorry you are going through this tough time. It happens to me from time to time as well and when it does I find it all so hopeless that I do not feel I can continue but also I feel like my life is not worth much if I stop so after a while I pull myself (whatever is left) and just carry on because I know for me there is no other way but to try and try and try while I live really. This is not something I can give up and continue living without. My friends think this is unhealthy and there must be more to life that just this one thing but for me having children is an absolute priority. The longer I TTC the harder it is for me to cope with surprisingly the first half of my cycle when I definitely know that I am not pregnant. TWW is easy for me because I can pretend and hope. It's all very sad. Most importantly that there is still hope I know it can happen for all of us and you can stop vitamins etc but just make sure you still BD in the right time. We will miss you here! but I hope the break will do you good and you will come soon to announce your BFP!

re DHEA, I am still thinking about DHEA and cant make up my mind. Tell me if I am wrong but since DHEA is a hormone that our body is supposed to be producing itself, when we add some it gives our body a signal that there is enough/more than enough and the body may start with time producing less as a result. so while I can definitely see short term benefits in taking DHEA I fear that it may actually do more harm if taken long term. For example, that's how it works with testosterone, if your body does not produce enough simply taking more is not an answer as it will lead to further reduction in production of testosterone by your body. 

MalaMae and Shiseru, I have similar points but I seem to have mormore or less the same every time regardless of CD. I never have any needles on my back but I get cupping. Also, I have Electro-acupuncture on all 4 tummy points. I have to say I do not like Electro-acupuncture particularly painful on my ovary points so I cant relax at all. I cant attach my chart from work but will post it later today from home. (it's not as beautiful as MalaMae's but hopefully you will be able to see the points). BTW very good idea we should have done it earlier


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## MalaMae

Oh, Blythe, I'm sorry you are feeling that way. I was thinking of the same this morning when I saw temp drop on 10DPO. I thought of giving up everything: ttc, herbs, acu.
Maybe that is the right thing to do. We need to continue living normal life, without analyzing our charts for each rise or drop, each cramp that we feel. And as much as I hate what people usually say, it may happen when we finally relax. (A friend just got a baby the other day after struggling with infertility for years-they stopped trying).
I realized there are worst things in life. A lot of my girlfriends are still single at age of 37, without ANY relationship, nor likely it will happen soon, feeling miserable. We are at least blessed to have somebody by us that loves us for being us not because we can provide them with son/daughter, to grow old together, to enjoy life together.


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## Briss

Briss said:


> MalaMae and Shiseru, I have similar points but I seem to have mormore or less the same every time regardless of CD. I never have any needles on my back but I get cupping. Also, I have Electro-acupuncture on all 4 tummy points. I have to say I do not like Electro-acupuncture particularly painful on my ovary points so I cant relax at all. I cant attach my chart from work but will post it later today from home. (it's not as beautiful as MalaMae's but hopefully you will be able to see the points). BTW very good idea we should have done it earlier


attaching my acu points
 



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ni.pdf
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## shiseru

Blythe, sorry you are feeling so down. TTC is hard and stressful. I agreed with other ladies that you should perhaps take a step back but still bd during your fertile period, at least take folic acid. Put your thermometer, BBT chart, OPK and HPT aside. 

I had a hard time getting a successful pregnancy after 2 losses, especially the mid term loss at 20 weeks. 

Before my first pregnancy, I used to spot 2-3 days before AF that's when I was diagnosed with low progesterone. So I took progesterone insert 2 days after O. The spotting stopped after I started TCM though. Tonight is my 2nd session, i am looking forward to it. I can rest during the 40 mins acupuncture session.

Briss, that's a lot of acu points! I am surprised there is one on the chest area? 

MalaMae, my first pregnany, i had a drop 10 dpo (attached)
 



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pregnancy chart.pdf
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## MalaMae

Briss, that is a lot of points, but I guess they are working for you. Saw your last chart, such nice temps after O :) I have electro-acu on the tummy and it's weird. But learned that I need to relax and the weird sensation is gone. Also, you should tell them to lower the current, you 'll feel better. One time I saw my tummy was moving so much, he lowered it, but I could still feel the current a bit. I had loose stool that day :) LOL He said that was normal.

Shiseru, thanks for the encouragement :) but my temp is falling, there is no rise. I thought of the implantation dip, but I don't think is that. Also I did have some cramps, but I always do around that time and on contrary I think that is- the egg detaching from the wall.
Who knows what's going on with our bodies! :)


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## Blythe

Im back...i miss you....thank you for your kind words...i really do appreciate it...there is a silver lining to LTTTC and that you girls on here.

I lost the plot and needed not to think about TTC for a while...you can imagine how that went:winkwink:

I wont be temping next cycle. I have been researching use of FA and decided to ditch my usual pregnacare and take a pure folate:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Solgar-Fol...NF4A/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1362921089&sr=8-1

I remember Malamae saying about toxity and too much FA and i read the following which made me think about switching:
https://healthybabycode.com/5-myths-about-pregnancy-nutrition-5-folic-acid-supplements-are-safe

i went to a chiropractor for my back and he said i had a bulging disc which is pressing against nerves hence the horrid pain....my chinese guy was recommending me to apply heat but the chiropractor said i should be using icepacks...so its ice and buckets of nurofen...just a couple of things ive missed when TTC!

I have just returned from acu and in on CD26...he needled some points along spleen meridian above and below the knee [above the knee he said they were used to support pregnancy and prevent it failing]. He also needled a point along the TW meridian on my ring finger on the side upper part on left hand only and two points along the side of my thumb on my right hand - he said they also support pregnancy. I did tell him I'm due for AF in a couple of days and ive had negatives so i know im not pregnant but im glad he is mixing up the points he uses.


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## Blythe

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/gabrielle-bernstein/manifest-desires_b_1404543.html

I sent this earlier to a friend who has just started adoption proceedings....she is certain she will be a mum to a daughter by the end of the year and her PMA has rubbed off on me.


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## Briss

Ladies, I agree I had lots of points + around 6-8 points on my face... I did ask to lower the current and had it at its minimum level, still hurt though.

Blythe, welcome back!! you've been missed :) how's your spotting? 

TMI! I had the strangest thing the other day, i usually have EWCM around O it does not usually have any color but yesterday on my peak it was the weirdest color - yellowish -beige sort of thing, not quite brown to qualify for spotting but nearly there. Got very concerned, infection? although today it was back to normal. Also I did 2 hour mountain biking yesterday, may be something to do with that? 

Blythe, thanks for the info on folic acid vs folate, I had no idea there was a difference. been on it for 2 years now on and off. I was trying to make an appointment with dr Zhai but the clinic phone was on voice mail, left a massage but no one called me back. I guess she is in demand


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## Blythe

Surprised dr Z's office didn't call back....I thought the customer service would be second to none....would you still consider ZW?

Spotting has stopped so in fact I only had in one day.... I'm getting period pains tonight so hope she turns up earlier rather than later. I am going to try the black cohosh CDs 1-12 and I have ordered some micronised DHEA and the folate so that's what I have planned for next round. 

The acu doc said my kidney pulse was weak but maybe that's coz I have been laid up with bad back. Honestly I'm struggling to really articulate what acu/herbs have done for me over the last 3 cycles.....I have 3 more sessions left but I've found a man on tooting indoor market who charges 15 per acu session and does raw herbs too for 3.50 per day so really cheap....I might go in there and check his credentials. Having said that I am fond of my current doc as he seems to really want to help but I'm a bit gullible so could be reading wrong signals (DH thinks I'm a bit of a mug for sticking with it!)

I wouldn't be too concerned re strange discharge unless accompanied by discomfort.... I've had all sorts. I have to say your temps look great since you finished the acu although you are back on the herbs aren't you?


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## MalaMae

Hey you are back! :) You even sound good :)
I'm applying heat on the back. I don't know why chiropractors suggest icepacks, but the heat helps me more always. Good luck with that, i know that horrible pain. I'm going to chiropractor for over a year. Did amazing things for my back and helped with the period as well.


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## Briss

I will call dr Z's again to check their waiting list and then if it's too long will probably opt for ZW.

It's great that spotting stopped! real progress, maybe acu's working? 

I am still taking the herbs but last cycle I was also taking gu han yang sheng jing pian


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## Blythe

MalaMae said:


> Hey you are back! :) You even sound good :)
> I'm applying heat on the back. I don't know why chiropractors suggest icepacks, but the heat helps me more always. Good luck with that, i know that horrible pain. I'm going to chiropractor for over a year. Did amazing things for my back and helped with the period as well.

i really hope this chiropractor can help...because i have lots of swelling in lower back he could really do lots of manipulations but did manage one. The heat provides more immediate relief from the pain but i suppose the ice will reduce swelling...i hate applying ice to my skin. I have two more appts with him then I may continue having an appt every few months as its quite pricey....what with all the supplements and acu/herbs im struggling to keep on top of things financially...im meant to be saving!!

its interesting though that chiropractors can help with almost anything...I've even read it can help with TTC.

sorry for AF....onwards and upwards:hugs:


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## Blythe

Briss said:


> I will call dr Z's again to check their waiting list and then if it's too long will probably opt for ZW.
> 
> It's great that spotting stopped! real progress, maybe acu's working?
> 
> I am still taking the herbs but last cycle I was also taking gu han yang sheng jing pian

yeah this cycle has been good [other than spotting CD9]...my PMT symptoms have only just become really apparent and i haven't been really cross [I'm usually very angry for at least one day about 4/5 days before AF]...I've been sad but I'm working on that. My temps are still up but expecting AF tommorrow or weds.

did you notice any positive benefits from taking the gu han yang sheng jing pian? I hope you manage to get through to Dr Z this week.

Have you had SA results yet?


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## Briss

"Gu Jiang Yang Sheng Jing Pill notifies kidneys, nourishes spleen, fortifies brain and calms spirit. It can be used for deficiencies of the spleen and kidneys manifested as dizziness, palpitations, dizziness, tinnitus, forgetfulness, anorexia, weariness of the waist and knees, men's reduced ability, frequent night urination, dribbling urine, etc." it's actually possible that my nice temps last cycle were partly due to me taking Gu Jiang Yang Sheng Jing Pill although I stopped after O.

Got Dr Z's book! cant wait to read it but just so busy at work it will have to wait a bit. 

I still need to call my FS for SA results but cant quite get myself to do it. I do not expect them to be good it's just a question of how bad can they get and as with my AMH I do not feel like I want to know. but of course i must


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## Blythe

After you posted the name of that herb you had been taking i also looked at the same entry you have posted.....in particular dribbling urine caught my eye!!

I totally understand putting off calling the FS....im going for bloods this week that the FS ordered. Do you contact the FS directly rather than get through your doc as i have no idea when my next appt will be?

im excited about you reading Dr Z's book and reporting back...I would be really interested to see what variations you find from Lewis's book.


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## MalaMae

Blythe said:


> MalaMae said:
> 
> 
> Hey you are back! :) You even sound good :)
> I'm applying heat on the back. I don't know why chiropractors suggest icepacks, but the heat helps me more always. Good luck with that, i know that horrible pain. I'm going to chiropractor for over a year. Did amazing things for my back and helped with the period as well.
> 
> i really hope this chiropractor can help...because i have lots of swelling in lower back he could really do lots of manipulations but did manage one. The heat provides more immediate relief from the pain but i suppose the ice will reduce swelling...i hate applying ice to my skin. I have two more appts with him then I may continue having an appt every few months as its quite pricey....what with all the supplements and acu/herbs im struggling to keep on top of things financially...im meant to be saving!!
> 
> its interesting though that chiropractors can help with almost anything...I've even read it can help with TTC.
> 
> sorry for AF....onwards and upwards:hugs:Click to expand...

I know what you mean about the expenses. It's too much. I'm going to chiropractor for 1.5 year, but when I started I didn't have the acu. It did help with my period. I use to have VERY heavy periods with nasty lower backache, bloated tummy- I looked like pregnant. At the begining I was going 3 times/week. Then 2 times, once week and now i'm once in 2 weeks. After 9 months of chiro I actually noticed the change (my whole back was messed up). No more blotiness, soemtimes I do get lower back pain but just for a the 1st day, not for 3-4 days as it used to be. And is true that it does helps with ttc, because those nerves around the lower back are connected to the uterus.
AF came (on Saturday in a night club!!). I was slightly inibriated (I knew it was coming so I knew it was ok to drink), so you can imagine the breakdown I had in the club.


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## Briss

Blythe, that's the main reason I got this book &#8211; to compare with Lewis's book and MalaMae's book. I call my FS directly but she is never around so I leave her a massage and she calls me back usually the same day. I am also getting Lewis' DVD I've seen some parts and it's quite good as she shows various techniques that she explains in her book. it's sometimes easier to understand what's she on about when you actually see how it's done. the quality I take it is not great but enough to give you an idea.

MalaMae, I am very sorry about AF, hits me every time as well.


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## Blythe

MalaMae said:


> Blythe said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MalaMae said:
> 
> 
> Hey you are back! :) You even sound good :)
> I'm applying heat on the back. I don't know why chiropractors suggest icepacks, but the heat helps me more always. Good luck with that, i know that horrible pain. I'm going to chiropractor for over a year. Did amazing things for my back and helped with the period as well.
> 
> i really hope this chiropractor can help...because i have lots of swelling in lower back he could really do lots of manipulations but did manage one. The heat provides more immediate relief from the pain but i suppose the ice will reduce swelling...i hate applying ice to my skin. I have two more appts with him then I may continue having an appt every few months as its quite pricey....what with all the supplements and acu/herbs im struggling to keep on top of things financially...im meant to be saving!!
> 
> its interesting though that chiropractors can help with almost anything...I've even read it can help with TTC.
> 
> sorry for AF....onwards and upwards:hugs:Click to expand...
> 
> I know what you mean about the expenses. It's too much. I'm going to chiropractor for 1.5 year, but when I started I didn't have the acu. It did help with my period. I use to have VERY heavy periods with nasty lower backache, bloated tummy- I looked like pregnant. At the begining I was going 3 times/week. Then 2 times, once week and now i'm once in 2 weeks. After 9 months of chiro I actually noticed the change (my whole back was messed up). No more blotiness, soemtimes I do get lower back pain but just for a the 1st day, not for 3-4 days as it used to be. And is true that it does helps with ttc, because those nerves around the lower back are connected to the uterus.
> AF came (on Saturday in a night club!!). I was slightly inibriated (I knew it was coming so I knew it was ok to drink), so you can imagine the breakdown I had in the club.Click to expand...


thats hard going...AF arriving in a nightclub:nope: I hope you are recovered and looking towards the next egg....Are you going to continue with your herbs and acu? i like the acu but the herbs are a bit of a drag....mine always taste ok [which makes me question their effectiveness] but my doc says to have them on an empty stomach [and not to eat anything either side for at least an hour] so i have one lot first thing and the next when i return from work but im a snacker so i find it difficult to keep clear of food...

Im still dangling waiting for AF...im hoping now having rechecked calendar that she will hold off until weds as that would mean i could BD on ovulation day rather than day after as DH is away that weekend.

The benefits you have got from your chiropractor are really impressive...i have two more appts but thinking of keeping a monthly appt so he can keep an eye on my back. I dread it going again this year as my boss can get funny if people start taking too much time out of the office. A healthy spine is so crucial to our overall wellbeing...I have to say in the past i have sought treatment from chinese clinics only and so far i am way more impressed with the chiropractor.


----------



## Blythe

Briss said:


> Blythe, that's the main reason I got this book  to compare with Lewis's book and MalaMae's book. I call my FS directly but she is never around so I leave her a massage and she calls me back usually the same day. I am also getting Lewis' DVD I've seen some parts and it's quite good as she shows various techniques that she explains in her book. it's sometimes easier to understand what's she on about when you actually see how it's done. the quality I take it is not great but enough to give you an idea.
> 
> MalaMae, I am very sorry about AF, hits me every time as well.

ive seen the clip re femoral massage and thats what i was doing and will start doing again once back restored....please report back on dvd once you have tried it out:thumbup:

Briss - i have eaten at least 7 full sized chocolate eggs in almost as many days....am feeling particularly fat and out of control at the moment but its just to darn cold to start with the juices just yet. Im hoping my return to the office tomorrow will = less chocolate!


----------



## MalaMae

I'm continuing with acu and herbs, but don't know for how long. April will be 6 months, so I may stop. I'm just tired of the whole ttc thing. I'm even tired of thinking about it. I need my life back.


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## Blythe

I understand:flower: it takes over everything.....its been quite gradual for me and the first few months i was relatively normal and relaxed about it taking the standard conception vits but now i have a pharmacy in my kitchen and notes everywhere and a frickin spreadsheet too!

As we are both over DH's mums the next fertile period (i am coming back early) and sex in her house is an absolute no-no i was thinking perhaps i would get him to 'come' into a pot in the shower and then pass it to me then i would go into the bathroom after i would use a turkey baster to pore it into myself...her bathroom is tiny so i would have to lay down with legs up against the bath....then i remembered she does not have a lock on the door....obviously that has put an end to my new plot to get pregnant as i could not face the humiliation of her walking in on such a horrific scene. Anyhow, point of this is that when i start thinking of inserting a turkey baster in me round my MIL its surely time to take a step back.

Im hoping my break from temping and opks will help me find a bit more balance in my life.....i hope this month will be your month:flower:


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## Briss

Blythe, actually if you can lie on the bathroom floor with your legs up the door, that would prevent anyone from walking in, wouldn't it? well unless the door open outside that it :) LOL in which case your DH can stand outside the bathroom to stop people coming in until you are done. it's obviously extreme but better than wasting a cycle and a perfectly good egg. I would just do it in your bedroom actually. he can bring you the sample and you can get it in on your bed and stay there for 30 min with your legs up :) 

My DH announced he wants to go traveling with his friends but the timing is all wrong cos it's my ovulation, I cant let him go so might have go with him basically just to get shagged ... cant believe the romance has come to that LOL


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## Briss

no idea what my temp is doing, why did it drop today instead of going up, how very annoying, although I feel I have ovulated cos there is no CM of any kind and no sex drive &#8211; quite a dramatic change to Sunday. 

I started reading Dr Z's book last night, she starts with what seems to be a summary of "Chinese Medicine: The Web That Has No Weaver" - all the basics of Chinese medicine, then she goes on to describe the relevant meridians and acu points, the drawings with the points are quite handy actually. but then I skipped all the discussions on fertility problems and moved straight to TCM types. Quite surprised to discover that I cant identify my type based on her questionnaire: I am usually qi deficient + bit of blood stasis/liver qi stagnation type. Now I seem to have a mild Kidney Yang deficiency but nothing else quite fits. not even sure where we go from here


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## Blythe

That fits in with what your acu doc said isn't it...Kidney yang and yin deficiency....it seems to me that that almost applies to anyone TTC. Does she suggest any self help remedies or recommend any specific dietary changes? 

It is a little unusual for you to get a dip when you have just ovulated but it will be interesting to see what it does in the next couple of days. I would be surprised if you haven't ovulated though and its maybe because this morning was so frosty.


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## Briss

for each type she provides acu points, herbs, lifestyle and dietary changes in the same way Lewis' book does but slightly less detailed and she also divides all types and treatments into excesses and deficiencies. She also has sections on herbs, on healthy eating for pregnancy, vitamins and supplements, food for your TCM type, acupressure and exercise, things to do while pregnant and questionnaire for the appointment. But she describes it all very briefly without going into much detail. it's more like an overview, compared to very practical and detailed account in MalaMae's book. still very interesting cos some of the questions to determine your TCM type are different from what I read in other books. 

I had very strong pain in my right ovary today, I wonder if I got it all wrong and only ovulating now. it would be strange cos I have no sex drive, very confusing. It was quite frosty this morning but yesterday it was so much worse with snow and all and yet my temp went up. it would be interesting to see what my temp is going to do next but I think without acu it's playing up a bit


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## shiseru

Hiya ladies! I just came back from a nice short trip with my family. I feel great!

MalaMae, so sorry about the af, looks like we are buddy this cycle. I never spot before af but these 2 cycles i did after the hsg test.

Blythe, I agree just have to think of a way to get the little swimmers in and not miss a cycle! 

Briss, your temp doesn't match your cm isn't it. Or perhaps sometimes you may have fertile cm 3-4 days before O? So you may start getting busy!

My 2nd and 3rd acupuncture sessions - She put more needles. I had 6-7 needles to the front, and 6 to the back. I always requested they lower down the current otherwise my body moved so much boy it hurts!

The Chinese sinseh when she first saw me. She said that my egg is probably not ideal because of my early O, and my af is scanty and my cycle is getting shorter. So I need to be more aggressive in ttc. My DH had his SA test yesterday, we will see the doctor end of March and decide on the plan. I would probably have 1 IUI so we know how well I respond to med.

Can't believe myself I actually bought Royal jelly. I know I can't improve the quantity but it helps with the quality? Anyway we just need to find the golden egg and 1 good swimmer! I'm sure we can succeed!

I look forward to my yoga this Friday too!


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## Blythe

Briss said:


> for each type she provides acu points, herbs, lifestyle and dietary changes in the same way Lewis' book does but slightly less detailed and she also divides all types and treatments into excesses and deficiencies. She also has sections on herbs, on healthy eating for pregnancy, vitamins and supplements, food for your TCM type, acupressure and exercise, things to do while pregnant and questionnaire for the appointment. But she describes it all very briefly without going into much detail. it's more like an overview, compared to very practical and detailed account in MalaMae's book. still very interesting cos some of the questions to determine your TCM type are different from what I read in other books.
> 
> I had very strong pain in my right ovary today, I wonder if I got it all wrong and only ovulating now. it would be strange cos I have no sex drive, very confusing. It was quite frosty this morning but yesterday it was so much worse with snow and all and yet my temp went up. it would be interesting to see what my temp is going to do next but I think without acu it's playing up a bit

I get fertile cm days before ovulation and pains days after O itself.... My signs don't match my temps. It's so confusing and we can't BD everyday for 8 days....we are looking at 3/4 tops. Can you get one last BD in?


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## Briss

My DH cant manage more than 2-3 times per cycle so no more BD for us. I was supposed to be ovulating on CD11, not much of a temp rise unfortunately, might be an unovulatory cycle, would be my first ... :(


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## Blythe

hi briss - i was surprised not to see your cross lines...i think you ovulated CD11....Everything was as usual re CM, temps, CBFM and your infamous raging horn :winkwink: so i think you can dismiss that little temp dip and those post ovulation twinges. i wonder if you will get your cross lines tomorrow...i will check with interest. 

i am on CD1 and was quite chuffed to see AF......as i could call hospital to arrange my hsg which is next friday and i go into hospital tomorrow for CD2 full blood profile. 

have you managed to get through to Dr Z yet?


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## Blythe

shiseru said:


> Hiya ladies! I just came back from a nice short trip with my family. I feel great!
> 
> MalaMae, so sorry about the af, looks like we are buddy this cycle. I never spot before af but these 2 cycles i did after the hsg test.
> 
> Blythe, I agree just have to think of a way to get the little swimmers in and not miss a cycle!
> 
> Briss, your temp doesn't match your cm isn't it. Or perhaps sometimes you may have fertile cm 3-4 days before O? So you may start getting busy!
> 
> My 2nd and 3rd acupuncture sessions - She put more needles. I had 6-7 needles to the front, and 6 to the back. I always requested they lower down the current otherwise my body moved so much boy it hurts!
> 
> The Chinese sinseh when she first saw me. She said that my egg is probably not ideal because of my early O, and my af is scanty and my cycle is getting shorter. So I need to be more aggressive in ttc. My DH had his SA test yesterday, we will see the doctor end of March and decide on the plan. I would probably have 1 IUI so we know how well I respond to med.
> 
> Can't believe myself I actually bought Royal jelly. I know I can't improve the quantity but it helps with the quality? Anyway we just need to find the golden egg and 1 good swimmer! I'm sure we can succeed!
> 
> I look forward to my yoga this Friday too!

Hi shiseru - do you have an electrical current on all your needles or just a select few?

What day do you usually ovulate? Your charts dont seem to indicate a particularly early ovulation to me....anyhow if that is the case i hope the acu will help.

good luck with the SA results:thumbup:

I take a teaspoon of bee pollen/royal jelly every day...fingers crossed it has some magic properties. I have been eyeing up a seller on ebay who sells pure royal jelly in the uk...its a bit pricy but after all the cash i have thrown at TTC another £30 wont make a massive difference!


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## Briss

I am also very curious what temp is going to be like tomorrow

Blythe, I am sorry about AF but great that you managed to book hsg, you are supposed to be more fertile after the procedure cos it clears the tubes, fingers crossed

I am very depressed today, had yet another argument with hubby this morning and in the evening a friend announced her pregnancy. they TTC for about 6 months and she has some serious health issues in that department including unstoppable bleedings etc, did not stop her getting pregnant though. I have now only 2 friends left who do not have children yet. outings with friends are becoming rather painful... I can sense that people feel sorry for me


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## shiseru

Briss, I am sorry you feel so down. After I lost my first child, I argued with my DH too, and avoid going out even chatting with friends that were pregnant or have small kids. Each time i heard a friend announced pregnant, I cried and missed my lost child so badly. I have friends who had abortion, drink coffee, smoke but were able to conceive easily. Life's not always fair. However when the world says GIVE UP, hope whispers ONE MORE TRY. That's how I stay optimistic about TTC. 

Did you test with OPK? You BBT chart doesn't look like you had ovulated but BBT sometimes aren't all reliable. I had my hsg in Jan, thought FF did not give me crossline but BT confirmed I ovulated.

My DH can't handle more than 2 times per cycles before I got pregnant with my first. He was then on TCM and now able to perform alt. days but still max 4 times. Is your DH on acupuncture or any TCM? These definately can help. 

Blythe, is this your first hsg? Remember to take some ibuprofen, i think it helped me. It was a little uncomfortable but nothing painful and over in less than 10 mins or so.

I have the electrical current on just a select few needles. What about you? I didn't sign up the VIP so you can only see my recent chart. I attached my BBT chart for the past few cycles. 3 cycles when i was on clomid, i ovulated on CD11 or 12. In Jan where I had my hsg, although FF did not give me cross hair line, BT confirmed I ovulated. My cycle and o day were fine before July 2012 and it went hay-wire after that. The early ovulation prompted me to go for a fertility check up. 

View attachment BBT July 2012 - Jan 2013.pdf


I heard many raves about the _royal jelly_ and bee pollen. So i ordered from drugstore and they are so much cheaper! Unfortunately they do not have royal jelly with pollen in so i bought the bee pollen separately. I have mild asthma before but I took one capsule of the royal jelly yesterday and I was fine.


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## Briss

shiseru, thank you for support! losing one's child is heartbreaking, life can never be the same again. but your optimism makes me feel stronger. 

that's just it - life is random and unfair, I gave up coffee (my favorite!!) 7 months ago but my pregnant friend still has 1-2 cups a day. I think I am gonna go back to drinking it


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## Blythe

Hugs to you briss....I get upset when I find out a celebrity has got pregnant and its really tuff when someone you know has. I have had a recent email exchange with a friend who was vexed with me for not going to her house and basically neglecting our friendship. She sent me an email saying I needed to focus on what I had and dont get upset about something I never had. She got pregnant with both her son and daughter within 2 cycles so she can shove that (albeit Well intended) advice up her bum. I much prefer contact with my other friend (and you girls) who has started adoption proceedings and is so sure she will be a mother to a daughter within the next year or so. Her positivity is infectious. I have brought a book on cosmic ordering....as clearly sex and supplements are not doing it.... Divine intervention could be way forward. Will report back.


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## Briss

Blythe, your friend sound like one of those fortunate people who will never be able to understand what we are going through. I do not think there is a way to deal with it except limit your contact. I am cutting off friends like that because it just adds negativity to my existence, and I have enough of it as it is I do not need more. 

cant agree more divine intervention is indeed welcome, and I think it takes place but in a backward sort of way. several years ago I really wanted to make it to partnership at my firm and was working literally 24/7 until I realised that I basically have about 5-7 years to have children so I either spent this time making a career (meaning working non-stop like a slave) or I give up on career and focus on TTC (obviously most people get both easily but as I said life is not fair for some and it's a fact). last 3 years I spent more time researching various TTC strategies etc than legal ones and what do I get? I think you can guess, my career is at all time high, I am being promoted and praised. and what do I get for TTC really hard? is this a universe sending me a hint that I should hold on to my career cos nothing else is coming my way? I am not complaining about my career going well, this is one thing that keeps me going really these days it's just amazing why did not it happen before when I badly wanted it and when I worked really hard and felt I deserved it. It's happening now when I moved on. It's kundalini strategy isn't it: in order to get something you should give it up.

Also, in her book dr Z talks a lot about women getting pregnant while BD on a wrong day. She gives a few examples when ladies BD after O and got pregnant. it's very confusing. either they got their ovulation date wrong or she is trying to say that all our methods in determining O are not very reliable. basically she just suggests BD ever 3 days. not helpful at all


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## alison29

I agree witht the cosmic ordering theory, also law of positive attraction..What is the book you are ordering?

IT was really hard for me when both my SILs got knocked up last year within one month of one another "accidently"..Now that the babies are here for some reason it is easier. But i went through the stages: anger and resentment and finally acceptance but still avoidance as much as possible didn't go t o their out of town baby showers but did give them nice stuff.


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## alison29

Briss according to the law of attraction you/we are focusing on the lack of a baby too much the wanting and therefore we are going to keep getting that in our lives. Look it up it makes sense it's just hard to focus on positive thoughts like imagining the baby you will have and hwat your life will be like and just ignore the HOW you are going to get there KWIM? I have read that if you want something really bad put it out there for the universe ( our order) then try to ignore it and TRUST you will get it.


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## Briss

I think it's only last 6-8 months that I am focusing on the lack of a baby, previously for over 2 years I was focusing on having a baby, I remember watching "one born every minute" about women giving birth religiously and regularly imagined myself going through the process and in detail thinking it over and over and than having that baby and bringing it up, even now quite often I imagine myself as a mother with 2-3 imaginative children, I even talk to them&#8230; I find TWW easy because deep down I believe I am pregnant every single time. I guess that's why getting AF really is a funeral


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## Blythe

i downloaded a book called 'Wishing Well! A guide to creating your dreams through cosmic ordering'.....

im sure i read something before after seeing some appalling celeb [may have been noel edmonds] saying a book on cosmic ordering had changed his life...i thought i would like some of that but i quickly lost interest. I cannot even remember what i ordered or how i ordered it. I will have a look through this book over the weekend and see how i feel about it.

Briss - i see you have your cross lines...i have had months were I've just had a bit of a slow start with the temps post ovulation...i don't think its anything to worry about so long as you can see a shift in the larger scheme of things.


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## Blythe

you may have already seen this....she's quite good and I've been getting a series of interesting emails since signing up...she's done some little videos and a guided meditation too...

https://how-can-you-get-pregnant.com


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## Blythe

Briss - keep going girl!! You are going to do it.... It's bloody tuff but something amazing will happen for you.


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## shiseru

Briss, I know they said coffee is bad but I still drink a cup in the morning :p I was doing really well in my career but my thinking has changed after I lost my angel child. I focus more on my family, and career is no longer my priority though I often complained about the 'why me?'. But when I finally held my baby girl in my arms, I knew I have made the right choice. She has made our love stronger and a future ever worth living for.

You'll get there, I am sure. My mum gave birth to me when she was 34, and had my brother when she was 45 with only one tube because of ectopic. 

Oh I see FF gave you crosslines, looks like you had a fallback rise this cycle so was doubting the O day! I had it once or twice and it had me confused.

Blythe, it's really frustrating to hear people who conceived easily trying to lecture us. I had a friend who conceived easily told me after i lost my first child. "NEVERMIND TRY AGAIN" I was really upset with her comments. Now imagine you lost a child and I tell you NEVERMIND GO MAKE ONE MORE, how would you feel about it? These people are insensitive, i will try to stay away from them.

Alison, I never attended baby shower after my losses and avoid gathering. It hurt too much I agreed. You are so brave. I can't even call them to congratulate nor send them gifts. I was such a sore loser...

Anyway, I am going for my yoga and my 4th acupuncture tomorrow, really looking forward to it! Have a nice weekend ladies!


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## alison29

Shiseru avoidence is sometimes the only way I can cope too. I can't even begin to imagine loss like that..It's not the same for me that is why i can pretend i am just peachy with it all. So unfair.

Briss i am glad to hear that you are still dreaming of your baby. Its only a matter of time then. Once you get pg if will all fall into place and make sense why you were made to struggle for so long whereas others laydown once (not bitter not me :) )
I know i struggle with the want thing and try to work on my thoughts everyday.

Thanks Blythe! I will be purchasing this boook on my kindle tonight. 

AFM I am scared about my lap it is Tuesday. Had pre op yesterday and bw today. Well lap and on the info chromotubation. Holy crap i am dying to know what is going on int ehre.


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## alison29

Oh and thanks for the mediation sites i have been struggling with meditation this week so you sending us the link is sychronicity.


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## Briss

Thank you ladies, it's really tough and particularly with hubby not being very supportive. I finally managed to book an appointment with overpriced dr Zhai and he is refusing to come with me! I am so disappointed I do not even know who else can help us with sperm count, he said he does not believe in TCM and it's just a way to get our money. I've heard so many stories with men improving their sperm count after doing acu. I am totally grateful that he has stopped with the beer that he is taking vitamins (not every day but most days) but I feel that's not enough and instead of waiting for 3 months to see if this has made any difference we should try and do more. not sure if I can persuade him.

Blythe, thanks for the link I will check it out properly over the weekend. I got my crosshairs so were right about O on CD11, but I think a temp sort of dropping right after O is not a good sign in TCM. I remember the doc's assistant were saying that this should not be happening. not sure what it means &#8211; smth for Dr Zhai to explain. 

I am not sure about "Wishing Well", I remember reading the Secret but I did not quite approve the idea. I think it only works with simple things like money and material objects it does quite work as we want it to with more serious things like illness etc. I tried it and it failed me 

Alison, how does the want thing work exactly? should we want things or not?


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## alison29

https://www.stevepavlina.com/ Yeah it is okay to want things just not focus on the lack of them in your life because then you will keep getting just that a lack of a pregnancy I haven't mastered it either (obviously :( )..but start with problems that are not so HUGE and try out the system it works. Lets say I was really annoyed with my husband teasing me all the tiem well the more I thought about how annoyed I was the more annoying behavior I got and that is true. I tried not to dwell on the bad parts and I do think things have gotten better.I try to focus on how I want things to be not the way the things are that aren't goiing right. The above has LOTs of great reads i highly recommend on the topic very motivational I was doing really good for a couple of weeks reading an article or two everyday. ...It gets so easy to revert back to usual thought processes but it's just conditioning of our minds it's not how we have to be. REally this guy is so helpful in understanding it all but even he works everyday to improve himself (meditations and whatnot) and I would say he is already a master.
Maybe with your dh you could try a little reverse psychology? I always trying to "massage" things to get my desired results. Fake that you aren't too concerned about it blah blah blah and maybe he will jump on board with you. IT couldn't hurt to try.
I know the more i push my dh the more he digs his heels in against me.


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## alison29

oh and i was just reading the reviews on the book a few minutes ago and they said if the secret failed to work for you then this book may help you get past those blocks. But the other site steve pavlina is free and you can access right away and get better information then what i have been typing here.


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## Blythe

ive just been out with work colleges for a leaving do....one of the guys i work with [one of the nice ones] told me his mrs is in the very early stages of pregnancy.....she had an early miscarriage so i am pleased for him. Anyhow, he was one side and my friend at work another side....she is 30 weeks so huge and looks edible [in a pregnant sort of way]. Honestly i don't mind when women have the babies as newborns are a bit weird looking...crikey even seeing the newborns puts me off [they are hard work and parents look rubbish].....its the pregnancy stage that i cannot mentally deal with....women look so amazing too me when pregnant and i so long to have that.

just a little about me...i tried to have a baby for 3 odd years when in my post 35 years and it did not happen...did bloods but then gave up...i then decided my DH was a twit so opted to leave him and work in another country. i then became pregnant [dont worry its not one of those give up it will happen stories - it was just luck [i think its all luck - only one BD in cycle post ovulation too!] but i did and i had a baby. when i did become pregnant i went on forums and corresponded with women, i avoided the ones that were in their second pregnancies because i thought how could they possibly know how i feel. I realise now that each pregnancy is unique. Im only saying this because infertility is heartbreaking for all. I do know how lucky i am i appreciate we are have different circumstances but i just wanted to say that i really think you are all brilliant but i think you girls that are LTTTC still waiting for first BFP are extra special. it will come and i will be the first to cheer. 

ive had 3 pints so this might be rambling!!!


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## Blythe

Briss said:


> Thank you ladies, it's really tough and particularly with hubby not being very supportive. I finally managed to book an appointment with overpriced dr Zhai and he is refusing to come with me! I am so disappointed I do not even know who else can help us with sperm count, he said he does not believe in TCM and it's just a way to get our money. I've heard so many stories with men improving their sperm count after doing acu. I am totally grateful that he has stopped with the beer that he is taking vitamins (not every day but most days) but I feel that's not enough and instead of waiting for 3 months to see if this has made any difference we should try and do more. not sure if I can persuade him.
> 
> Blythe, thanks for the link I will check it out properly over the weekend. I got my crosshairs so were right about O on CD11, but I think a temp sort of dropping right after O is not a good sign in TCM. I remember the doc's assistant were saying that this should not be happening. not sure what it means  smth for Dr Zhai to explain.
> 
> I am not sure about "Wishing Well", I remember reading the Secret but I did not quite approve the idea. I think it only works with simple things like money and material objects it does quite work as we want it to with more serious things like illness etc. I tried it and it failed me
> 
> Alison, how does the want thing work exactly? should we want things or not?

my feeling is that cosmic ordering is a load of bollocks. i think when reading this sort of stuff we start making subtle difference to our 
lifestyle/outlook/diet/exercise regime/attitude that then manifest themselves in change...Its really just positive thinking and changing our thought processes hence our actions. Now then, this stuff might work for girls that are new to this...and therefore start paying attention to their diet etc which will clearly affect their fertility [there is a link....no shit sherlock!] but for us girls who have been trying for a while im struggling to see how this works. As i say im off work for a few days so i will read this book and hope to come back here with some firm instructions....it could be magic after all and I'm just being cynical :)


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## alison29

I love all the literature on manifesting..it really resonates with me but for some praying resonates. I guess it is ehatever feels righ t. Thanks for sharing about yourself! I agree about the first time bfpers. Let us know what u think bout the book. I can see how a person would think it is bs though


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## Briss

Maybe I should leave my DH... sometimes I think by sticking with him I am committing a crime against my unborn children because he is the problem and he is not co-operating while I am running out of time. I do love him but nothing can compare to my love for my unborn children 

I've just come back from ne yo's concert at O2 (I do not blame you if you do not know who he is, I did not know either), an RnB singer, I wanted to take my mind off TTC and what do I get? he devoted a song to his little daughter - sweet, with her pictures all over and statements like "the greatest thing I've ever done". am happy for him, but did I need this reminder that I am yet to do "the greatest thing" myself ... am stuffing myself with a chocolate cake to make myself feel a little better before I can go to bed :( 

somehow despite my shortcomings in a form of chocolate, I still feel that my body is in good shape for pregnancy, I am not sure how long this will last but last two years I was definitely ready for this. Feel like I am wasting my precious time waiting for hubby to catch up. was hoping that TCM can stop this process to give me a bit more time while I wait.

Blythe, inspiring story actually, seems like your DH and you were meant to be together :) totally agree with your luck theory. but then I am screwed, luck is one thing that has not been particularly friendly to me. interesting about BD post O, that's what dr Z says in her book. I mean we did BD post O on a number of occasions but usually the last time we BD is a day before or a day of O. maybe that's our problem?


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## Blythe

Briss said:


> Maybe I should leave my DH... sometimes I think by sticking with him I am committing a crime against my unborn children because he is the problem and he is not co-operating while I am running out of time. I do love him but nothing can compare to my love for my unborn children
> 
> I've just come back from ne yo's concert at O2 (I do not blame you if you do not know who he is, I did not know either), an RnB singer, I wanted to take my mind off TTC and what do I get? he devoted a song to his little daughter - sweet, with her pictures all over and statements like "the greatest thing I've ever done". am happy for him, but did I need this reminder that I am yet to do "the greatest thing" myself ... am stuffing myself with a chocolate cake to make myself feel a little better before I can go to bed :(
> 
> somehow despite my shortcomings in a form of chocolate, I still feel that my body is in good shape for pregnancy, I am not sure how long this will last but last two years I was definitely ready for this. Feel like I am wasting my precious time waiting for hubby to catch up. was hoping that TCM can stop this process to give me a bit more time while I wait.
> 
> Blythe, inspiring story actually, seems like your DH and you were meant to be together :) totally agree with your luck theory. but then I am screwed, luck is one thing that has not been particularly friendly to me. interesting about BD post O, that's what dr Z says in her book. I mean we did BD post O on a number of occasions but usually the last time we BD is a day before or a day of O. maybe that's our problem?


Im not sure we were meant to be together....i do love him but its only in the last few months he has been fully on board to TTC. Even then he still complains about the supps but does his best to perform when asked. Given that our sex life is non-existent other than the around TTC time and even then it really is the basics, that impresses me! He is not keen on IVF but given a sufficient amount of nagging that could change.

[hope i don't seem presumptuous but.....] Your DH is taking his supps and has drastically cut down on the booze, he went for SA when you were away etc...I think he may be hurt he cannot give you what you want [he will though!] but expresses it defensively [and sometimes men throw their toys out of the pram] so it may seem he is not as committed as you. Men are very proud aren't they. Having said no one is as committed as us girls....men just don't understand and they cannot because they don't have these hormones that send us a bit loopy every now and then.

just ride through this rough patch and keep focused on your goals....keep being strong:flower:


----------



## Briss

Blythe, thank you so much for your words of wisdom, in my despair and anger I cant see things clearly. In TCM they say that emotions are very important and can affect the wholeness of our system. I clearly have problem with anger, am so angry at the universe it's overwhelming


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## Blythe

alison29 said:


> Shiseru avoidence is sometimes the only way I can cope too. I can't even begin to imagine loss like that..It's not the same for me that is why i can pretend i am just peachy with it all. So unfair.
> 
> Briss i am glad to hear that you are still dreaming of your baby. Its only a matter of time then. Once you get pg if will all fall into place and make sense why you were made to struggle for so long whereas others laydown once (not bitter not me :) )
> I know i struggle with the want thing and try to work on my thoughts everyday.
> 
> Thanks Blythe! I will be purchasing this boook on my kindle tonight.
> 
> AFM I am scared about my lap it is Tuesday. Had pre op yesterday and bw today. Well lap and on the info chromotubation. Holy crap i am dying to know what is going on int ehre.


Alison - hope you are well:flower: Let us know how the lap goes on tues....please don't be scared. I haven't had one but I am having my HSG on thurs so depending on that may schedule a lap....lots of ladies go onto conceive after a lap dont they?:thumbup:

Ive started reading my book and the lady is a hypnotist and so she is explaining some of the methods she uses. a couple of things i have read had resonated with me....She keeps repeating "The process of getting whatever you desire is the emotion of already having it"....ive yet to really grasp what this involves but i am intrigued.


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## Briss

I am wondering how does "The process of getting whatever you desire is the emotion of already having it" work for secondary infertility. surely if you already have a child you have all the right emotions about being a mother? what other emotions you would need to develop? I also heard that for people struggling to get pregnant with their first to spend more time with children and babies, supposedly helps to get pregnant. I guess sometimes it works sometimes it does not, a fellow B&B member works with children but it does not seem to be helping, quite the opposite, just a constant reminder


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## Blythe

I dont know....i havent read anymore today......i watched a couple of episodes of the undateables instead. My DH has been lying in sofa all day hungover which irritates me. He hasnt taken his supps either. He djs every couple of months and irraviable gets drunk and seems to spend the rest of his sparetime making music. I have to keep an eye as ive caught him with laptop on top of private area no doubt frying his sperm! He is under strict instructions to to keep it away!

Ive been eating masses....i really need to get a grip! I just wish i could exercise but im still recovering from my back going so my whole body is sore. Mosn, moan, moan!

Need a big dose of PMA tomorrow:nope:


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## Briss

laptop on top of his private area - must be forbidden! I agree, I do not even let my DH ride a bike, he is so upset about it. 

I seem to have formed vitamin B2 deficiency, can definitely see some major cracking of the right corner of my mouth - definite sign. also, I hear vitamin B2 deficiency is nearly always part of a general vitamin deficiency. frustrated, considering the amount of vitamins I am taking (i also added B complex to my pregnacare conception). decided to stop all vitamins except for vitamin b2 at least for a week, maybe some of the vitamins inhibit vitamin b2 absorption


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## Blythe

im going to get a decent B vit complex today. i dont really want to take pregnacare for a while....I got my folate through the post yesterday so going to take that and avoid the folic acid....my body needs a break.

I have been eating walnuts and raspberries everyday to improve kidney yang.....not noticed any difference though.

today is CD5 and just slight spotting...the same yesterday. I hope a 3 day AF is enough to get pregnant....its quite nice having a short period but not sure how healthy it is.

Briss - other than chocolate cake late friday night how is your chocolate consumption?


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## Blythe

Started bleeding again so just having a stop /start cycle!


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## Briss

I got B complex from higher nature but now stopped it and just take B2, I can see it working actually even after just 2 days.

I think it takes time to see a difference when you are trying to make changes in your diet. Also I sometime get a stop /start period, i can get no blood not even spotting for the whole day and then it start coming out again. it's not particularly great though.

My chocolate consumption is quite terrible :( I am having too much of this stuff and it's really difficult to stop or even to limit it. Though I am trying to replace it with honey and dry fruit 

I have one more week of herbs and then not even sure maybe I return to the herbs that my previous doc gave me I still have 1 or even 2 weeks supply (although it's one year old) but they look very different from the ones I am currently taking, could potentially mess things up. My app with Dr Zhai is mid april, seems like ages, I so hope it'll worth it. Still a lot to do before I can make my DH change his mind and join me for the appointment.


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## Blythe

I brought some nice English set honey today and done more of the mixed royal jelly/bee pollen stuff. I read that it has all the b vits in it so I did not buy a supplement in the end. 

I have been gorging on chocolate all weekend but I have this week off work so I determined to leave it well alone. I'm also going to try to meditate and do done of this manifesting/cosmic ordering stuff. I think I need to really believe I'm pregnant already although I'm just not sure about this still. I'm also going to order a new job and some wealth (don't want to be rich just not worried about money). 

That's great about the appt .....I thought you would have to wait longer than that as I've seen threads about women who have gone to her Clinic waiting months. I had a new doc today and he was great...he put loads of needles on and I fell asleep.....I never do that do it felt like it was effective. Unlike my other doc he had no qualms about needling the tummy points whilst on period. My ovaries are aching a bit now. Yesterday I went to see the Chinese guy who has s little unit in the indoor market who charges 15 for acu....he was great and I said I would go and see him. He said 40 was young so clearly I already like him! A old Jamaican guy was in there saying he and all his family see him and he's really good so I will check him out when my treatments are finished in 2 wks with my current ones.


----------



## Briss

We've been arguing with hubby all weekend I even almost threw him out on Saturday but then we made peace because it was supposed to be implantation time and I needed to be calm (as my DH put it), I am still not sure how long this seize fire thing continue. 

He is also upset I do not let him go on holiday on his own, I just cant miss an ovulation! 

It's so great that you keep discovering new acu docs, for some reason I am so scared of these little Chinese clinics in markers and shopping centres. My husband's Chinese friends (two) said they do not go to Chinese doctors in London because they would not know who is good and who is a charlatan. that's a bit disturbing that they prefer western approach. If Chinese medicine was so great you would expect Chinese people doing it, wouldn't you? Obviously that does not help my case in persuading hubby to join me for the appointment. 

Left a message with my FS to discuss hubby's SA. nervously waiting for her to call me back.


----------



## Blythe

Hi Briss - i hope the results are good...i have everything crossed for you.

im sorry you have been arguing...its very difficult and stressful but your DH is right i suppose that you should try and take it easy at this time. I argued too this weekend and my DH shouted whats up with you...is it your time of the month? bit immature really but actually a correct observation...my response was not pleasant so i wont repeat it here!

Honestly i think alot of these chinese medicine places are full of charlatans but i just have to go with my gut instinct [which has clearly been wrong in the past]. I liked the little old guy i saw on sat but for all i know he has never been near a classroom in his life but he seemed to ask the right questions and i just got an ok feeling about him so i will go there if i give up current place. i remember a feature in the standard one year about TCM places in london and a guy went round to a few of them with the same complaint and ended up with a number of conflicting prognoses based on TCM....i guess its unfortunate but there will be people there that just want ££ and just go through the motions.

A lot of chinese wont go near TCM....i don't know much about it but i think it is Mao that tried to revive it and brought it back to the fore of healthcare in that country.....back in beginning of 20th century china became heavily influenced by the west with the advent of communism. i think TCM became illegal. Im sure many families they were brought up to question its foundations and legitimacy. 

i hope your day gets better....Something amazing could be happening inside you now so focus on that.....if its not this month then it WILL be another month. :flower:


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## Briss

Blythe, a lady shared what worked for her on pre AF spotting front - "I used 200 mg prometrium vaginally and no spotting whatsoever! " more info here https://babyandbump.momtastic.com/p...our-preaf-spotting-explain-infertility-3.html


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## Blythe

cheers briss - the last time i had my day 21 bloods done doc was not concerned with my prog levels therefore would not prescribe progesterone...I had since looked on-line for them [of course:wacko:] However, i have ordered some more prog cream which i think is far superior to that i was using before so will be using that this cycle. I would much prefer the prescribed stuff.

If the problem persists i will push it with the FS.

do you expect a call today from your FS?


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## alison29

Hey you guys..I have a problem with chocolate too. I *love that book *so far. I am trying to imagine the chocolates are crummy and dirty and will make feel nauseated (from the book). lol. Also I really can't stand my dh when I have PMS. I tell my friend here, "oh great dh is bugging me lots i must have PMS already". I do notice i become combative also so i have learned before i hit the roof it is pms time to count to ten and think of something else that it is me or rather i normally can put up with ever offense is occurring.
So still feeling anxious but thanks for the pep talk. but it will be over with soon enough. 
tomorrow at 2 then outta hospital by 6. I will pop in if i live :( to let you guys know what they found. As far as the book and having the emotions of already being pregnant or having what i want (which is that) i have prob put out wrong emotions maybe the desperation feeling.. Which isn't good for manifestation because that is what will keep popping up my life the REALLY wanting part. that is the biggest struggle but trying to work with the book and improve.


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## Blythe

alison29 said:


> Hey you guys..I have a problem with chocolate too. I *love that book *so far. I am trying to imagine the chocolates are crummy and dirty and will make feel nauseated (from the book). lol. Also I really can't stand my dh when I have PMS. I tell my friend here, "oh great dh is bugging me lots i must have PMS already". I do notice i become combative also so i have learned before i hit the roof it is pms time to count to ten and think of something else that it is me or rather i normally can put up with ever offense is occurring.
> So still feeling anxious but thanks for the pep talk. but it will be over with soon enough.
> tomorrow at 2 then outta hospital by 6. I will pop in if i live :( to let you guys know what they found. As far as the book and having the emotions of already being pregnant or having what i want (which is that) i have prob put out wrong emotions maybe the desperation feeling.. Which isn't good for manifestation because that is what will keep popping up my life the REALLY wanting part. that is the biggest struggle but trying to work with the book and improve.


Hi Alison

I think my problem has been imaging my future with a new baby but its always in the future...so far my understanding is that i need to imagine it is my present. I need to imagine looking at that test and it being positive. I feel i have done that hundreds of times but im not doing something right thats for sure. I am off work this week so i intend to read the book. I find it interesting and wonder how it works with the wealth stuff and jobs too....

all the best tomorrow...i look forward to hearing about it. im sure it will wizz by.:flower:


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## alison29

Blythe said:


> alison29 said:
> 
> 
> Hey you guys..I have a problem with chocolate too. I *love that book *so far. I am trying to imagine the chocolates are crummy and dirty and will make feel nauseated (from the book). lol. Also I really can't stand my dh when I have PMS. I tell my friend here, "oh great dh is bugging me lots i must have PMS already". I do notice i become combative also so i have learned before i hit the roof it is pms time to count to ten and think of something else that it is me or rather i normally can put up with ever offense is occurring.
> So still feeling anxious but thanks for the pep talk. but it will be over with soon enough.
> tomorrow at 2 then outta hospital by 6. I will pop in if i live :( to let you guys know what they found. As far as the book and having the emotions of already being pregnant or having what i want (which is that) i have prob put out wrong emotions maybe the desperation feeling.. Which isn't good for manifestation because that is what will keep popping up my life the REALLY wanting part. that is the biggest struggle but trying to work with the book and improve.
> 
> 
> Hi Alison
> 
> I think my problem has been imaging my future with a new baby but its always in the future...so far my understanding is that i need to imagine it is my present. I need to imagine looking at that test and it being positive. I feel i have done that hundreds of times but im not doing something right thats for sure. I am off work this week so i intend to read the book. I find it interesting and wonder how it works with the wealth stuff and jobs too....
> 
> all the best tomorrow...i look forward to hearing about it. im sure it will wizz by.:flower:Click to expand...

I think you are exactly right. Keep doing the present time imagery with things up close. I never thought about how we imagine things we already have close to ourselves whereas things we don't have far away. We are going to trick our subconcious minds yay! I too was doing the future thanks for pointing that out.


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## Briss

Alison, good luck tomorrow!! let us know how it goes. 

I sometimes look around my flat and imagine where would my babies be and I can see them perfectly well. as I said because I am probably going mad from my despair I sometimes even talk to them .. :( that's how real it is to me. not getting me pregnant though yet


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## Briss

Blythe, I think with regards to these chinese medicine places, because we already know quite a lot how it works and what our deficiencies are it is probably not going to be difficult to determine whether the doc knows his stuff. I am considering how approach Dr Zhai: should I just listen to what she says or should I share how other doc treated me? I am hoping I can ask for a list of herbs and acu points for each major step in my cycle and do it cheaper elsewhere. They sent me a 3 page list of questions about our TTC history but I think I will also complete her questioner from the book to make our app more efficient. and prepare a list of questions to ask her about my and DH's deficiencies.

I did not know TCM had such controversy in China. That's really interesting. My DH was actually planning to go to China (which I am not allowing because of my O), it would have been so interesting to go there and see it for ourselves but he said he does not want to go with me because it's rather expensive and he wants to make sure he has really good time which is unlikely to happen with me around screaming "make love to me NOW" :(

I think about the money all the time, and Dr Zhai is SO expensive but then I used to spend lots of money on shopping (not anymore cos nothing looks good on me) and on such things as laser hair removal!! I mean it was life changing really getting rid of most unwanted hair but 700 pounds per visit every 2 months ... (I had LOTS of unwanted hair). I know I need to be saving for IVF and mortgage actually (we are so far away from having our own place) but it would be so much better if I could get pregnant naturally 

MY FS did not call me back, maybe tomorrow. I am so not looking forward to it but I just hope since my DH's SA, his sperm has improved cos it's been over a month without beer and on supps


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## Blythe

Its quite interesting...an old friend of my DH trained as a TCM practitioner and did further training in Shanghai in one of the many integrated hospitals they have in C now. The docs hold degrees in both western and eastern medicine and use both in conjunction or exclusively depending on the illness. 

a trip to C would be incredible but i don't blame you for not letting him go...once you are pregnant you can wave him off!

i used to spend alot on waxes and always wanted that laser removal treatment....has it lasted?

as Dr Z is so expensive i think you are doing exactly the right thing....squeeze everything out of it that you can....she is there to serve you. I don't think there is anything wrong at all in letting her know what your other doc focused on....although i would only say that after she has said what she thinks your deficiencies are....and perhaps even after the treatment itself as you don't want it effecting subconsciously what points she will needle.

with the whole manifesting stuff im going to focus on finding out i am pregnant, seeing the two lines and those first few days of being pregnant and build it up from that. I will try to set aside a few minutes here and there throughout my day and really try to feel it and imagine what room i am in when i look at my test and what the weather is like on that day etc etc


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## Briss

laser removal for me was simply life changing! before that I used epilators which was so painful and I had to use it at least once a week and it took about 2-3 hours to do what I needed. I was suffering so badly, if I missed a week then it became a torture. also there were areas where I simply could not use epilator &#8211; just too painful to bear. I used laser everywhere even down there (did not help though). the best parts were legs, hands, arms, face, armpits and bikini lines. I did about 12 -14 treatments and well over 20 on my face (very difficult area) and I stopped when we started TTC about 3 years ago. I still have some hair left but nothing compare to what it used to be, nowadays I just use my epilator ones every 2-3 months and it takes about 20 min to go through my legs and arms. face (upper lip in particular) is getting slightly worse but I am not doing anything until I have my 3 children! 

I think it's so easy to imagine two lines&#8230; I have to stop myself doing that all the time, I tend to get carried away in my dreams I can see so well reaction of my mum and my close family, my own feelings &#8211; this unbelievable joy and a feeling of true happiness. In TWW I always behave as if I am pregnant (trying to stop myself because with AF approaching it becomes heart-breaking), it helps that I have the right type of smallish bump so I constantly touch it imagining I have a tiny baby growing inside. 

it seems that there is two conflicting theories: one says forget about TTC and it will happen and the other says constantly think about being pregnant and it will happen. I guess we need to pick one and stick with it

Blythe, can you talk to your DH's friend who it TCM practitioner? maybe he can recommend a good doc in London? I actually offered my DH to come with him to china (So exciting isn't?) but the cost becomes rather too much and also he does not seem to want to go with me &#8230; actually that's exactly what I told him, once I am pregnant you can do whatever you want and go wherever you want but as soon as I give birth you are back to looking after your sperm cos we need to start making the second one straightaway. I used to think I will be breastfeeding for as long as possible but now with my time running out I may have to cut it to 6 months so we could start trying for our second. you can see how easy it is for me to make plans in TWW, but if AF turns up I will start questioning my life, purpose everything. these days I can only live in TWW where I can just create my little imaginary world of "maybe I am already pregnant", the other day when I was flying back to London they wanted me to go through the scanner at the airport but I said I could not cos I am pregnant so they let me in without scanning, obviously after that AF came and I was devastated for about a week but here I come again&#8230;


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## Blythe

i was always thinking i would have 2 but now im thinking of ordering 3. As i have a week off im going to do a little board or at least a list of exactly how i want my life to look like....i have always been quite vague about it really.

My only problem with the stop obsessing/thinking about it/give up school of thought is that i cannot do it [maybe need to get to the 3 yr point to do that] so im going to give this one a go..even though im not temping this cycle or OPKing although to be honest thats just because we are at DH's mums this weekend so we can only BD friday night and monday when i return from work then i think i would have O by then.

DH's friend [actually ex-girlfriend] did her training in SF and lives there. I do know that she did herbs and acu so cannot imagine she would recommend ZW or Gerald Kite or those guys just doing acu without herbs....i suppose what they have is a specialism in fertility which alot of the high st chinese practitioners don't seem to have.... not sure if you have already checked these ones out:

https://www.tcm-healthcare.co.uk

https://clinic.acumedic.com/therapies/i/fertility-clinic/20/

https://www.whatclinic.com/traditio.../london/london-nw-district/the-hyde/viva-vita

https://www.clairebattersby.co.uk/about/introduction/

https://www.asante-academy.com/clinics.htm

https://acupuncture.blog.co.uk/2012...uncturist-for-infertility-treatment-14866163/

If i had the cash i would go to the latter or, of course, Dr Zhai.

Not so fussed now [due to only having sex with one man infrequently] but a few years ago i would have loved to have had by Bikini done and upper lip too....i use an epilator now on front bikini line but obviously not under...the pain is too awful. I will be getting the razor out ahead of my HSG....lord knows why i care but i do!


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## MalaMae

Hi girls,

Have been reading you all, just didn't post anything, I'm trying not to obsess too much.
Anyway, regarding meditation, a lot of Indian friends told me of Baba Ramdev (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramdev) meditations and yoga. I did find a lot of his videos on youtube: https://www.youtube.com/user/babaramdev/videos?view=0
He has for "childless couples", "low sperm count", weight loss etc. 
Sorry, maybe you already heard of him, but for me it's totally new.
I like this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwYJDH1mQkQ


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## MalaMae

This one too: 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vqZtwSA5fvE


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## vix1972

I have a question about acupuncture. I went for acupuncture today as i have been once a week for just over 4 months. Normally the Dr asks to see my tongue and takes my pulse before treatment and prescribing herbs. Today she just stared at me for a minute while i was talking to the receptionist and when i came out after treatment both the Dr and the receptionist were very smiley and upbeat. I wondered how on earth she could tell anything by just looking at me?! Anyone else have this happen?? Its just not the norm based on previous treatment.


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## alison29

No endo and tubes clea. I am shocked . Soo what is it? Must be mental or timing!?


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## alison29

Thanks for the yoga video. Blythe I am going to try moreemeditation to reinforce the positivr feelings of bfp. Iwill also do the yoga I lve it don't do enough but feel best physically and emotionally when I do....its weird but iam sad I don't have endo still no answer..I like to loook my best for gyn tooo. When i s your hsg? Thanks for being such great friends u guys.


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## alison29

Vix maybe she was going symptoms. They halve donne pulse and tongue for me both pllaces


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## shiseru

Hello ladies

Though am not posting but am following up closely on your progress.

Alison glad there is no blocked tubes or endo, what did the doctor suggest next? How's your DH semen?

Vix, the Sinseh will always take my pulse and look at my tongue sometimes my eyes each time i visit her. I've been told i have a little kidney deficiency so she said it's probably due to stress and fatigue.

I did experience sore back the last few months but it got better recently. I had a few times acu and started yoga, I am so glad I started on yoga, it has been a long time since I feel so relax and stress-free! 

Today is CD9, I am gonna jump my DH bones lol this week!


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## Blythe

vix1972 said:


> I have a question about acupuncture. I went for acupuncture today as i have been once a week for just over 4 months. Normally the Dr asks to see my tongue and takes my pulse before treatment and prescribing herbs. Today she just stared at me for a minute while i was talking to the receptionist and when i came out after treatment both the Dr and the receptionist were very smiley and upbeat. I wondered how on earth she could tell anything by just looking at me?! Anyone else have this happen?? Its just not the norm based on previous treatment.

Vix - where are you in your cycle, pre or post ovulation? Some tcm practioners can tell if someone is pregnant through their pulse. It is possible that you can just tell by looking at someone but that would be a bit crazy in the 2ww period and impressive so be sure to update us if that is the case. Perhaps she just happy with your progress and can see you are getting better from your skin tone, eye brightness, va va vooooom etc either way that reactn sounds like good news and like your treatment is continuing to make things better with you :thumbup:


----------



## Blythe

alison29 said:


> No endo and tubes clea. I am shocked . Soo what is it? Must be mental or timing!?

Unexplained infertility is frustrating but at least everything is looking good inside and nothing blocking the way! I think its pure luck......all those sperm released and only a few get near the egg......one month everything will align and the magic stuff WILL happen....keep on going with the supps, PMA etc


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## Briss

Alison, how are you feeling? great news there are no blocked tubes or endo.

Vix, my acu doc did not always take my pulse or look at my tongue sometimes she just went straight to acu

Blythe I am very happy to see your chart, I am so used to stalking it

Had such a busy day today so much stress, still tonnes of work to do, previously I would stay until early hours of the morning working, not any more&#8230; I need to recover myself These last few days before AF are so torturous &#8211; it's one minute of hope, followed by a minute of despair, and it's like that all day


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## Blythe

Those last few days are indeed horrid. Your chart looks nice though.....

It's funny I'm not temping and I still stare at my chart for what seems like hours!!! Might do a bit of temping on sat and mon onwards to check for ovulation. Did a bit of ff chart stalking earlier and saw some pregnancy charts where the temp dipped below cover line a few times during 2ww....not sure why but it gave me some comfort. I like seeing bfps with odd looking charts....

Don't stay too late....cor I hope your firm pays for cabs home when you stay late.


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## vix1972

Thanks for your replies.

Mmm perhaps she just looked at my complexion and eyes to see how i am. I am post O think about 4 or 5 days now. 

I would love some va va voom hee hee!!

I will admit the acupuncture is working wonders. I have had 2 AFs and have not had a hot flush since January! I have also cut back on my supplements and only take prenatal vits and coq10 now. 

I will wait and see if my body is performing miracles in about a week from now i think


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## Briss

My firm pays for dinner and cabs home when I stay late but it's just not enough for having your life basically stolen from you. I am particularly concerned about the stress. My acu doc kept repeating that I am very stressed and I do feel stressed most of the time when I am at work, so I am trying at least to leave early and delegate work to juniors even if that means that the quality of work will suffer, not my priority anymore


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## shiseru

Briss, your chart is looking good! My TCM commented i have a little kidney deficiency when she took my pulse so she said take it easy (of course it is easier said than done!) but the yoga really is doing wonder for me. I am looking for the next session tomorrow! 

I realised you ovulate quite early in your cycle too. I used to be CD14-17, recent cycles had me ovulated on CD10-12. The TCM said not ideal because the follcies may be empty if ovulate early otherwise it is immature and cannot implant to result a pregnancy, so I dunno how true though I do hear people O as early as CD10 and getting pregnant with no problems. 

Blythe, are you now post O? How are you feeling, any symptoms? 

I had a pregnancy chart I just knew i was pregnant because I had a flu, and on 12DPO there was no spotting (i used to spot 1-2 days before af and my LP is only 12 days), my temp was up to 36.8 so that prompted me to take a HPT. 

Vix, acu definitely helps by regulating your body&#8217;s system and aids in blood flow to the reproductive organs and stabilizes hormone levels. This in turn will increase ovarian function in women as well as sperm production in men.


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## Briss

Shiseru, Lewis says in her book that O from CD11 to CD17 is fine, it might be a problem if you O before CD10 so I am hoping we are still in the game 

My temp dropped this morning but my sex drive is up&#8230; I wonder does it mean my progesterone levels are droping and oestrogen is taking over? I am only CD22, I have at least another 2-3 day before the hormonal change


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## Blythe

Hi not sure if i have done this attachment properly or not so shout if you cannot see it.

I have just returned from 2nd hand shop with a book i purchased on acupuncture. Its a 1970s colour atlas of acupunture and has actual pictures of naked people [before waxing became popular may i add!] receiving treatments. 

It states on the front..."atlas for all.....student, practitioner and public to read, learn and start your own acupuncture clinic". That aside there are some useful bits in here and a little section on 'sub-fertility' for those who have been trying for 2+ yrs. There does not seem to be much on diagnosing individuals but rather the emphasis seems to be on points needled for specific ailments. So really, it is flawed in that respect but the points shown in the attached do seem to be those that we have all had needled at some point. 

I had my HSG earlier today and it bloody hurt. I looked up at the screen and my bits don't look like they do in the books....my uterus is flopped over to one side and the tubes seem to go all over the shop....still he said they appear to be clear so that is good news.....
 



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## Blythe

shiseru said:


> Briss, your chart is looking good! My TCM commented i have a little kidney deficiency when she took my pulse so she said take it easy (of course it is easier said than done!) but the yoga really is doing wonder for me. I am looking for the next session tomorrow!
> 
> I realised you ovulate quite early in your cycle too. I used to be CD14-17, recent cycles had me ovulated on CD10-12. The TCM said not ideal because the follcies may be empty if ovulate early otherwise it is immature and cannot implant to result a pregnancy, so I dunno how true though I do hear people O as early as CD10 and getting pregnant with no problems.
> 
> Blythe, are you now post O? How are you feeling, any symptoms?
> 
> I had a pregnancy chart I just knew i was pregnant because I had a flu, and on 12DPO there was no spotting (i used to spot 1-2 days before af and my LP is only 12 days), my temp was up to 36.8 so that prompted me to take a HPT.
> 
> Vix, acu definitely helps by regulating your bodys system and aids in blood flow to the reproductive organs and stabilizes hormone levels. This in turn will increase ovarian function in women as well as sperm production in men.


Hi shiseru

im CD9 today and may try to BD tonight but if not definitely tomorrow night...I usually ovulate on CD13 but wont be able to BD on CDs 11 & 12 as we are staying at DH's mums so it is out of the question.

Thats great the yoga is helping....once my back is better and i can actually start moving properly i will really get into the yoga as i need to strengthen my body and particularly my core as i cannot go through the agony of back pain again. How often are you doing yoga?


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## Blythe

Briss said:


> My firm pays for dinner and cabs home when I stay late but it's just not enough for having your life basically stolen from you. I am particularly concerned about the stress. My acu doc kept repeating that I am very stressed and I do feel stressed most of the time when I am at work, so I am trying at least to leave early and delegate work to juniors even if that means that the quality of work will suffer, not my priority anymore

It's so easy to get caught up with work and stay late but it is physically and mentally exhausting even if we don't always realise at the time. You are doing exactly the right thing by leaving earlier than you would normally do. Professional pride is obviously a great thing but once you are on your maternity leave you wont give a hoot about the quality of the work.


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## Briss

Blythe, fantastic news on HSG results! it's so important so you can get pregnant naturally. I had a lot of scans in my life and on some of them my uterus is flopped over to the right side and on others it flopped over to the left side, no idea what this means but no one ever pointed to this as an issue I guess it changes its position from time to time depending on how full is your bowel, gross!


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## shiseru

Briss, I can't see your previous chart but your LP last cycle was 14 days so let's not read too much into a one day temp drop I hope it goes back up tomorrow. 


Blythe, I am glad to hear your HSG is cleared, I had mine and it didn't hurt probably because I took some ibuprofen before hand and it helped. I didn't even noticed when the dye went in. 

That was a lot of acu points shown on your attachment! The few acu points on the tummy and leg are similar to what the sinseh is doing for me, but she didn't give me any on the chest nor my hands and toes?

Today is CD11. I think i tested positive for OPK last night so we just BD and today my temp has not rise. I know it's weird to say this but I hope it stays low for another 1-2 days and I have my O later.

Oh well it's Friday here and I am gonna take it easy and enjoy my Yoga tonight. Enjoy your weekends too ladies!


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## alison29

I am glad you got your HSG over with so glad to hear your tubes are clear too :) Yay for blowing out the cobwebs.
I am still sore but icing the areas where they cut in definately helps. The dr gave me good pain meds too but i am back at work and don't want to be brain dead here today.
That is interesting about your uterus. Mine is not posiitioned in the usual way either (retroflexed). I wonder if thsi changes the way you should position your self after bd. For me the best way to keep things in would be on my stomach with a pillow under my knees so maybe yours would be on your side with a pillow under your knees there.


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## Blythe

vix1972 said:


> Thanks for your replies.
> 
> Mmm perhaps she just looked at my complexion and eyes to see how i am. I am post O think about 4 or 5 days now.
> 
> I would love some va va voom hee hee!!
> 
> I will admit the acupuncture is working wonders. I have had 2 AFs and have not had a hot flush since January! I have also cut back on my supplements and only take prenatal vits and coq10 now.
> 
> I will wait and see if my body is performing miracles in about a week from now i think


Vix - it is so encouraging when i hear stories like yours and see what an incredible difference this treatment is having for you. Any changes it has had on me are so subtle that i struggle to really articulate what they are. Im just having to trust that something good is happening inside. I am very fortunate in that is do ovulate regularly etc so im just hoping that its sorting out my eggs and lining etc ready for my BFP.


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## Briss

Blythe, is Black Cohosh having any effect on you? do you feel different? 

Am going to be stuck at the office all weekend, maybe not a bad thing cos it's my last 2 days before AF, tension is building up also cos I feel my body is gearing up for AF :(


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## Blythe

Briss - i hope there will be no AF for you....:flower:

I meant to report back to you before now actually on the Black Cohosh as i have had no ill effects from it at all....no changes to this months AF and in fact better than the month before as i had post AF spotting for a while. Overall ive felt quite good but im not sure i can put that down to any one thing. 

if i dont get BFP this cycle i am tempted to continue with it again next cycle or perhaps have a months break and do it again. I have a good feeling about it as a supplement though, not sure why though:wacko:

its good to be occupied those last couple of days but make sure you take some breaks from your desk.


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## Briss

Black Cohosh sounds good, I may consider trying it. although i plan to do my old herbs next cycle.


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## vix1972

Thanks. I did not believe in acupuncture at first and was even planning ahead for what to do when i had no results. 

I have gone from being classified as menopausal by my GP at age 39 (yep thanks for that one Doc :growlmad:) to now having periods again, return of CM, libido back, hot flushes gone and night sweats gone too. 

I have on CD22 (6dpo i think) started bleeding lightly, no period pains but not sure whether i am on another short cycle or what! 

Am glad you are recovering Alison and glad that all is in order for you.

My uterus is what the sonographer called "flopping backwards" and my cervix is not quite where it should be. Also when have u/s they cant find my right ovary right away. Guess not many of us have textbook organs lol!


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## Blythe

vix1972 said:


> Thanks. I did not believe in acupuncture at first and was even planning ahead for what to do when i had no results.
> 
> I have gone from being classified as menopausal by my GP at age 39 (yep thanks for that one Doc :growlmad:) to now having periods again, return of CM, libido back, hot flushes gone and night sweats gone too.
> 
> I have on CD22 (6dpo i think) started bleeding lightly, no period pains but not sure whether i am on another short cycle or what!
> 
> Am glad you are recovering Alison and glad that all is in order for you.
> 
> My uterus is what the sonographer called "flopping backwards" and my cervix is not quite where it should be. Also when have u/s they cant find my right ovary right away. Guess not many of us have textbook organs lol!

Are you still bleeding or is it just spotting? It may just be your cycles regularising themselves. I get spotting anytime from 3 dpo.... 

I was looking at hsg X-ray pictures in google and was comforted to see floppy uterus' galore!


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## vix1972

Blythe said:


> vix1972 said:
> 
> 
> Thanks. I did not believe in acupuncture at first and was even planning ahead for what to do when i had no results.
> 
> I have gone from being classified as menopausal by my GP at age 39 (yep thanks for that one Doc :growlmad:) to now having periods again, return of CM, libido back, hot flushes gone and night sweats gone too.
> 
> I have on CD22 (6dpo i think) started bleeding lightly, no period pains but not sure whether i am on another short cycle or what!
> 
> Am glad you are recovering Alison and glad that all is in order for you.
> 
> My uterus is what the sonographer called "flopping backwards" and my cervix is not quite where it should be. Also when have u/s they cant find my right ovary right away. Guess not many of us have textbook organs lol!
> 
> Are you still bleeding or is it just spotting? It may just be your cycles regularising themselves. I get spotting anytime from 3 dpo....
> 
> I was looking at hsg X-ray pictures in google and was comforted to see floppy uterus' galore!Click to expand...

Not many of us look like textbook diagrams then. I am bleeding very lightly. I am on CD23 and now 7dpo. My first cycle only lasted 20 days so dont know what is happening now. Maybe my body is trying to settle gradually. If this is AF it is very light but it means that my cycle has got bigger by two days. never had spotting before so couldnt really distinguish between it and light bleeding. I think its like firing up an old machine that hasnt worked in a while a bit of spluttering going on before normal running lol!


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## Briss

CD 24 for me, woke up with lots of cramping I can just feel AF is almost here, I need it to wait until Monday :(


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## shiseru

Vix and alison, I came across a number of women with retroverted/retroflexed uterus. I think it is quite common and fortunately Uterine position has no effect on fertility. My friend has it and the doctor suggested doggy style and she got pregnant! Alison, i am glad you are recoveing well!

Briss, you are still in the game until AF comes. Hopefully no af for you.

Blythe, do you usually spot after O? Are you on progesterone cream? I used to spot a few days before af but it stopped after i used progesterone and TCM.

Anyone has feedback on royal jelly? It seems to increase my libido! My TCM has commented previously that my post BBT is low. After a few treatment, I think it is showing improvement. Well looks like I have a fall back rise this cycle. 

During yoga session, the teacher teaches these poses, and I am glad to know they all aid in fertility https://www.natural-health-for-fertility.com/yoga-poses.html

Finally! I get to see the doctor this Sat and know about my DH semen results. If it's still fine, we can try IUI. If not then on to IVF but I suspect waiting time to be 2-3 months.


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## inspiration50

Carrot and beets is delicious! but be careful and do not drink it too fast you may feel sick. I use 5-6 carrots for ½ beetroot

___________________

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*Can you get pregnant on your period*
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*How to Get Pregnant With a Girl* *How to Get Pregnant With a Boy*
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## Blythe

shiseru said:


> Vix and alison, I came across a number of women with retroverted/retroflexed uterus. I think it is quite common and fortunately Uterine position has no effect on fertility. My friend has it and the doctor suggested doggy style and she got pregnant! Alison, i am glad you are recoveing well!
> 
> Briss, you are still in the game until AF comes. Hopefully no af for you.
> 
> Blythe, do you usually spot after O? Are you on progesterone cream? I used to spot a few days before af but it stopped after i used progesterone and TCM.
> 
> Anyone has feedback on royal jelly? It seems to increase my libido! My TCM has commented previously that my post BBT is low. After a few treatment, I think it is showing improvement. Well looks like I have a fall back rise this cycle.
> 
> During yoga session, the teacher teaches these poses, and I am glad to know they all aid in fertility https://www.natural-health-for-fertility.com/yoga-poses.html
> 
> Finally! I get to see the doctor this Sat and know about my DH semen results. If it's still fine, we can try IUI. If not then on to IVF but I suspect waiting time to be 2-3 months.

thanks for the link - will check it out as my body almost feels ready for some exercise and stretching after suffering with my bad back recently.

I've been taking royal jelly in capsule form now replaced with the runny stuff out of a pot mixed with pollen and english honey and it hasn't really had an effect on my libido which is a great shame but i think its a good addition to my daily intake of supplements!

i have had spotting from CD3 in the past although most recently from CD10 ish onwards. I am now armed with some new progesterone cream and will hopefully use it to good effect this cycle.

all the best for the appt on sat and i hope your DH's results are good and enable you to go ahead with IUI or get that surprise BFP!

AFM i caved in and temped this morning and was expecting a nice low temp as i have not yet had a +opk [had two in the house so used them - they had lightish second lines but not +] but i had a big temp rise so not sure what thats about. remember why i wanted to avoid opks and temping as it stresses me out. I will BD tonight and hopefully tomorrow too and that should cover it.


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## Briss

AF got me today :( am depressed it just feel so hopeless, something between my eggs and his sperm just does not work. at least i got 25 day cycle, saturday/sunday was really tough cos I had very prominent cramps and was sure AF was going to come any minute and was grateful for every hour it did not come. Hubby ordered some sports equipment to work and they by mistake delivered a baby crate... :( it's like the universe is laughing at us he got a crate and I got my period. we sent it back today.

started on my other Chinese herbs today, they are quite different to my previous ones and much nastier. also, I have no idea what's in them but at this point I am so depressed that i do not think i care. 

obviously acne got worse last couple of days, I am so happy I found a concealer that really works. I did notice that it's hormone related because it seems to be getting worse around AF and O, which is every 2 weeks. My acne started when I was 31 maybe that's when I reached my peak fertility and things started going downhill from there?


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## shiseru

Blythe, you mean you have spotting before you O? I was diagnosed with low progesterone once because i spotted 2-3 days before af. However I am not sure about spotting before O. Accordingly to TCM, they will probably tell you it's due to insufficient blood and 'qi'

Recently I complaint about backache and I was told that I have kidney deficiency, but also could be due to stress or too tired. So get lots of rest and according to TCM, kidney qi plays an essential role in the function of reproduction, growth, and development so herbs for kidneys are always given. Can't your TCM do them in capsules? Mine is in capsules form so it's easy to consume.

I have been told by both TCM and gynae that BD alternative days is more than sufficient. When it comes to TTC, sex feels like a chore! Gotta find someway to spice it up but I can't think of any, any idea ladies? LOL

Briss, i am sorry af got you. But you are right you have a slightly longer cycle. My cycle was 24 days and I think I am going to have a 25-26 days this cycle. To both my TCM (I see one for acu and another for med), cycles that falls below 28 is not ideal. Though I have seen quite a number of women conceiving and carry to terms with no problems and their cycles are all around 24-26 days.

I have acne outbreak too, i think it started few months ago and my back have them too. They were really irritating and I blamed it on hormones but recently I noticed it's caused by certain food, that is PEANUTS! (I love them!) so I stopped and do mask 2x/week and it's improving. Any changes in your diet?


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## Briss

I just do not know anymore what's normal, women around me with terrible gynecological conditions get pregnant with no difficulties. as long as you O between CD 10-17 you are fine, I think. 28 was never my normal cycle, I'd get 25-27 day cycles and a few 28-29 a year, once every two years I'd get a 24 day cycle. ever since I had this lap most of my cycles were 24-25 days and acu did not make any difference in this respect. I do not think there is anything wrong in having a 24 day cycle (if that's what you always had) it's a change in cycle length that worries me. there is always a reason for any change.

I eat a lot of chocolate but I always had and it never caused any acne even when I was a teen it's probably hormones


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## Blythe

Briss - i saw your message this morning but was not able to reply until now. A massive big virtual :hugs: to you

This is really tuff isnt it....its like being in a dark tunnel and not even knowing if there is an open exit at the other end....everytime AF comes i have to think about the positives...these are that each month i take my supps my eggs are getting better as is DH's sperm...in turn they will make a much stronger and lasting pregnancy for me.

hang on in there and keep on being strong and amazing! i have no doubt that it WILL happen somehow but it really does take it out of you.


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## alison29

shiseru said:


> Vix and alison, I came across a number of women with retroverted/retroflexed uterus. I think it is quite common and fortunately Uterine position has no effect on fertility. My friend has it and the doctor suggested doggy style and she got pregnant! Alison, i am glad you are recoveing well!
> 
> Briss, you are still in the game until AF comes. Hopefully no af for you.
> 
> Blythe, do you usually spot after O? Are you on progesterone cream? I used to spot a few days before af but it stopped after i used progesterone and TCM.
> 
> Anyone has feedback on royal jelly? It seems to increase my libido! My TCM has commented previously that my post BBT is low. After a few treatment, I think it is showing improvement. Well looks like I have a fall back rise this cycle.
> 
> During yoga session, the teacher teaches these poses, and I am glad to know they all aid in fertility https://www.natural-health-for-fertility.com/yoga-poses.html
> 
> Finally! I get to see the doctor this Sat and know about my DH semen results. If it's still fine, we can try IUI. If not then on to IVF but I suspect waiting time to be 2-3 months.

That is so funny that you mention the doggie style as i was talking to my friend at work (who just found she was pg 2 nd month clomid) and saying I should do that this cycle which i think may have started today ug woof woof feel like an animal although every once in a while dh like the change of scenery so will do. Too bad i can't drink a bunch of tequila first (makes me naughty)
I can't wait to hear what your dr says. Forward progress so glad we are all making it it's the stagnation that worried me now that i have done something i feel hopeful.

Today is cd 29 not sure if the bleed is from lap or af.

That is great


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## alison29

I am sorry Briss. I think eating more fat makes us produce more oil which leads to acne. At least one theory.

About the bedding. My friend at work was taking clomid and her dr told her to bed 14 and 16 . That is all she did and ovulated on day 17. she does temping. She bd at night and laid the rest of the night in bed. She pre inserted preseed and allowed it to warm inside before bedding she didn't want to cold shock the swimmers. IT worked so that gives me peace about not having to bd ALOT.


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## alison29

shiseru I hear you with the chore of bedding especially when we don't have much alone time to get foreplay in. Recently (last o time) i added a little oral and since dh is not used to it it got him going. I don't how to get my own libido up just keep my eye on the prize i guess. The rear thing is going to do nothing for me but i eye the prize and it's not necessary for a woman to get there to conceive so what ever.


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## Briss

Blythe, thanks! with the breakdowns and upsets that I go through each months for the last couple of years I am so not sure my eggs are getting any better, I have a feeling that things are getting worse actually, I get more grey hair every month&#8230; not a good sign. in the meantime I am stuck in the office all hours of the day hating every minute of it (my Easter break is ruined) and all for nothing, just so depressing. you are right it is like being in a dark tunnel. you might Oed on CD12 looking at your temp, weird that you did not get a positive OPK though 

Alison, re oral, be careful it's not recommended before BD cos your saliva may damage the sperm


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## shiseru

Alison that is funny. I tried doggy a few times but I can't get any orgasm so I prefer the missionary with legs up LOL! Wine or tequila would get me tipsy and I would probably fall asleep before we can BD! :D People said if you do doggy, the chances of conceiving a boy is higher! 

Only thing different is that after I started taking the Royal jelly, it increase my libido during my O days which I welcome it becauseI feel that sex has become a chore since started TTC. (Here's some reading https://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=946702&page=1) We don't have foreplay nowadays (boring!) so BD starts as soon as the lights and clothes are off LOL! No oral like what Briss said, I am afraid it harm the little swimmers. But hey I know of people using KY and have oral got pregnant! (boo life's not fair)

The TCM said, do not stress before O otherwise your body won't make a good egg/delay or no ovulation. Do not stress after O otherwise it won't implant. Opps I am never gonna get pregnant like that LOL! After my 2 losses, i didn't really take it easy to be honest. I still watch my O closely, bonk like bunnies days leading up to O, then stressing during the 2ww. But I conceived, so I can't fully agree with some people saying 'hey take it easy, don't stress about it' I think it definitely stressful when it comes to TTC but we need to be a little aggressive, there are something that is within our control such as taking charge of our fertility, eat wisely, take supp especially folic diligently, find something to de-stress be it massage, movie, shopping and most importantly stay optimistic! 

Briss, looks like your work is pretty stressful? Do you often work overtime? I used to be really workaholic but try to avoid nowadays. I can't quit since I am the sole breadwinner in my family. Other than my DH and the baby, my parents and brother are staying with me. 

You are right, the change in cycle from 28-30 days to 24 days prompted me to see a gynae and get some tests done, and there was when I was told my low AMH 0.2! Our body does tell us something!

Blythe, I agreed with you. It's better late than never knowing at least we can plan the next step and take actions! (supp, acu, IUI, IVF, Yoga to de-stress, etc)

We'll get there ladies!


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## Briss

My work is rather stressful, I am usually good at "delegating" (if you know what I mean) because I do not really care about my career (I want to stay in the job cos one income is just not enough and also I am hoping to get my 6 months paid maternity &#8211; a lot of money btw) but last couple of weeks it just got a little out of hand. speaking of maternity, a colleague lost her job when I started TTC and I remember she was depressed because of that but since then she found a new job and stayed there for over 2 years to qualify for the new maternity right and is now pregnant (obviously cos everyone is) and I am still there with my maternity rights and AF&#8230;

oral and BD &#8211; all depends on the quality of your DH's sperm, if he has super sperm even if you kill half of them with oral you will still have plenty to give you a decent chance. with my DH's low sperm count every single sperm is precious so we cant afford the risk, any oral activity only in TWW


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## Blythe

Briss said:


> Blythe, thanks! with the breakdowns and upsets that I go through each months for the last couple of years I am so not sure my eggs are getting any better, I have a feeling that things are getting worse actually, I get more grey hair every month not a good sign. in the meantime I am stuck in the office all hours of the day hating every minute of it (my Easter break is ruined) and all for nothing, just so depressing. you are right it is like being in a dark tunnel. you might Oed on CD12 looking at your temp, weird that you did not get a positive OPK though
> 
> Alison, re oral, be careful it's not recommended before BD cos your saliva may damage the sperm


Are you working over the weekend? Are you due some annual leave soon?

Im not sure what is happening this month...my temps are a bit weird and suggest i have ovulated but i think i may have ovulated today/late last night based on feelings. Anyhow, either way we are done with BDing this month.

i have been eating so much recently as its been so cold - i am putting on weight everywhere and i feel sluggish and fat....need to take control. Once the weather improves may start a proper juice fast as i cannot continue like this. Losing weight may actually be something i can do!!


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## Briss

just got back from work with tonnes to read for tomorrow by 8 am. am so stressed! looks like i might be working this bank holiday :( finally managed to get through to my FS only to hear that she cant find my hubby's SA results! she suggested i come for an appointment then she will have time to deal with us. well, the nearest appointment is in May :( I will be taking some time off in june simply because it's the end of our financial year and i can only transfer 10 days the rest will be lost so gotta use it. 

you have really steady temps last few days, hopefully it's a good sign! you BD enough i think you are with a chance, fingers crossed! 

the only good thing about being so busy is that i did not have any time to cry, i usually do every AF. 

I also feel really fat, still back with chocolate cake (third one)... i also want to go back to juicing. my old herbs are so super nasty, i have really hard time forcing them in


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## alison29

I never thought about the saliva killing swimmers. Even if they do the deed after and the saliva gets washed off?

That really sucks the LOST your results wth? Seems like they could fit you in quicker. That sucks waiting that long.

So my af is here. Anyone else have really heavy bright red flow after procedure? IT seems much better it's just weird because didn't really remove anything. Maybe just flushing out the tubes cleans out a bunch of congestion when the dye passes through the uterus? I don't know . I have my post op today.
Shiseru that is the problem with alchohol for too sometimes it just makes me lazy. It was weird after the dg style convo me and dh bd last night (yes in the middle of the red sea I was SO not in the mood) dh wanted to do that position without me suggesting it! Then once he saw the view which was very red he decided to switch because well who could be turned on by that but a sicko. sigh


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## alison29

oh and briss i have faith that once you guys see a dr you will get the help you need an your bfp hopefully it's just a little something they have to tweak you know?


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## Blythe

Briss said:


> just got back from work with tonnes to read for tomorrow by 8 am. am so stressed! looks like i might be working this bank holiday :( finally managed to get through to my FS only to hear that she cant find my hubby's SA results! she suggested i come for an appointment then she will have time to deal with us. well, the nearest appointment is in May :( I will be taking some time off in june simply because it's the end of our financial year and i can only transfer 10 days the rest will be lost so gotta use it.
> 
> you have really steady temps last few days, hopefully it's a good sign! you BD enough i think you are with a chance, fingers crossed!
> 
> the only good thing about being so busy is that i did not have any time to cry, i usually do every AF.
> 
> I also feel really fat, still back with chocolate cake (third one)... i also want to go back to juicing. my old herbs are so super nasty, i have really hard time forcing them in


there is a section on London fertility specialists today in the ES magazine supplement....nothing that you don't already know but thought i would mention it. 

May is not so far away - next week is april so only a cycle and a bit away...thats sounds not to bad on the NHS.

Briss - is there anyway you can cut your hours or commitment to your job without them getting shirty? i only ask because you are working long hours and getting home late....if you cant can you maybe fit in a lunchtime yoga session...you may have to force yourself to relax. Im sure you have considered every option so tell me to sod off as necessary :) 

Juicing will be so much more appealing once this super cold snap has finished.

i have just had the same period pains i get post ovulation - they are really strong nowadays....i just want some unusual stuff to happen so that my hopes are raised. I think i ovulated last night from the feelings i had around that area so the high temps are weird [maybe something to do with the black cohosh] but will just how the next few days goes. I will start using my new prog cream from tomorrow i think.


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## MalaMae

So I'm done with acupuncture as of yesterday. Me and DH decided to stop with it- we got bored and tired of running around (6 months), plus no money anymore. Suddenly I feel so much more relaxed.
So not only that I'm giving up on TCM, but also on OPK, saliva monitor etc. I'm letting go of the control. We will continue to ttc (roughly every 3 days after af). When ever I talk to women taht had problems conceiving, ALL of them said relax and don't think about it. It's very hard to give up the control and "not thinking about it", but I need my life back.
I tired of thinking about ttc, have BD when I get +OPK, measure BBT, analyzing temp chart etc. I can't, I'm TIRED it has been almost 3 years. It's funny, the time when Blythe hit the wall, that made me realize that I'm tired and just sick of it. I felt like I have voice in my head that keeps talking to me about ttc, ovulation, implantation, high temp, low temp etc.

I have wonderful husband who supported me in everything I wanted to try in ttc and he still would if I asked from him, but I think he needs a break as well.

This year I'll be relaxing, but next if nothing happens naturally, I may looking into IVF in Macedonia (my country, born and raised there)- it's roughly 2500 Eur (or CAD 3200-3300).

Ladies, I will still follow you, maybe write sometimes (I got hooked on you :))


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## Blythe

MalaMae said:


> So I'm done with acupuncture as of yesterday. Me and DH decided to stop with it- we got bored and tired of running around (6 months), plus no money anymore. Suddenly I feel so much more relaxed.
> So not only that I'm giving up on TCM, but also on OPK, saliva monitor etc. I'm letting go of the control. We will continue to ttc (roughly every 3 days after af). When ever I talk to women taht had problems conceiving, ALL of them said relax and don't think about it. It's very hard to give up the control and "not thinking about it", but I need my life back.
> I tired of thinking about ttc, have BD when I get +OPK, measure BBT, analyzing temp chart etc. I can't, I'm TIRED it has been almost 3 years. It's funny, the time when Blythe hit the wall, that made me realize that I'm tired and just sick of it. I felt like I have voice in my head that keeps talking to me about ttc, ovulation, implantation, high temp, low temp etc.
> 
> I have wonderful husband who supported me in everything I wanted to try in ttc and he still would if I asked from him, but I think he needs a break as well.
> 
> This year I'll be relaxing, but next if nothing happens naturally, I may looking into IVF in Macedonia (my country, born and raised there)- it's roughly 2500 Eur (or CAD 3200-3300).
> 
> Ladies, I will still follow you, maybe write sometimes (I got hooked on you :))




I think you have done so so well with the acu and herbs and committing to that for 6 months is hard work.....its just bloody exhausting isnt it. I started this month not wanting to temp or opk and found myself doing it mid-cycle. All it has done is stress me out. 

I sometimes think the temping/opking etc etc stops us really listening to our bodies....however, what it does do is give us a rough idea of when we ovulate so i think you know by now when that is. Your plan sounds like a really good one.

Yes please do post every now and then - i love to see your posts :)


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## MalaMae

Thanks Blythe :flower:

The OPK, BBT does give us rough idea when we ovulate, but this month I realized it doesn't really matter, because if you have sex every 3 days you'll actually hit the day (more or less). My sister conceived her kids on CD5-6 and CD7-8! Go figure!
This cycle will be my last that I take the BBT. I already hid the saliva monitor. 

In the next months, I'll be concentrating on my trip this summer to home (Macedonia)- hopefully that will take away my thoughts from ttc. Already DH bought the tickets to Amsterdam, now we have to figure out flight from Amsterdam to Skopje.


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## Briss

MalaMae, 6 months of acu is fantastic and hopefully it did its job in preparing your body for BFP so may be you are right you just need to let it go. will keep my fingers crossed for you. please do not forget us though, love your posts!

Blythe, just got home from work, was so busy today but hopefully next week I will launch one of my deals and it'll get easier. not great for TTC but then I did not cry, I always cry a lot during AF and this time just did not have even a minute to think about it so maybe it's not that bad. will try to do some yoga tomorrow, am so exhausted so unlikely manage any aerobics


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## Briss

Alison I had really weird AF after the procedure not sure why but I think it's normal. they say you are supposed to be more fertile a few cycles after that, fingers crossed


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## MalaMae

Thanks Briss :flower::flow: I hope you're right, I hope the acupuncture did some goodness :)
No worries, I'll pop in sometimes. I won't forget you girls. How can I? You've been an amazing support, strong crying wall, always full of encouragment and comforting words. You know exactly know how I feel. 

I hope soon this thread will be transffered to the "expecting" forum and we'll cry over our morning sickness :))


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## Blythe

Briss said:


> MalaMae, 6 months of acu is fantastic and hopefully it did its job in preparing your body for BFP so may be you are right you just need to let it go. will keep my fingers crossed for you. please do not forget us though, love your posts!
> 
> Blythe, just got home from work, was so busy today but hopefully next week I will launch one of my deals and it'll get easier. not great for TTC but then I did not cry, I always cry a lot during AF and this time just did not have even a minute to think about it so maybe it's not that bad. will try to do some yoga tomorrow, am so exhausted so unlikely manage any aerobics

Not thinking about AF and TTC is ALWAYS a good thing - quite rare though isn't it. I wouldn't worry about the aerobics for now but please do try and get some good stretching in and get the blood going round and try to switch of your brain for a bit. I hope once your deal goes through work will ease up a bit...are you a lawyer?

I find watching the new 'dallas' helps me completely switch off from stresses of life and TTC - im not taking the p*** either - its great :)


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## Briss

working all day today, all stressed out. got some of the documents delivered cos working from home, hubby got a shock when he saw 500 page document that I was supposed to read, but when I told him that i actually drafted this document (yes I am a lawyer) he could not believe it. just shows how little he understands about what I do :( cant wait for this deal to close, cant believe it's already 5 pm I was so busy did not even notice how the day's gone :( and did not take my herbs cos was sure it's still morning... I never watched the old 'dallas', not even sure what the new one is about :) I'll give it a go though


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## Blythe

Briss - hope you getting on ok and ploughing through what needs to be done. 

are you still noticing improvements in your bleeding (ie less clots) since finishing the acu? 

I notice I bleed less and it's a bit stop/start so not sure if this is an improvement of not....suspect not as my period seemed pretty normal before. 

I have my cross lines today ....highest cover line ever bit I agree I think I did ovulate on cd15 so the black cohosh has delayed my ovulation a little....which is no bad thing. 

Dallas is full of bad acting, oil deals, intrigue, some terrible plastic surgery and sex with a hot little stud....John Ross Ewing!!! It's a raunchy eastenders set in the us....I'm afraid for this reason I cannot recommend it to others but it is something I enjoy very much!


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## Briss

Blythe, great to see your cross lines! did you get a positive OPK after all or you just stopped testing? your temps seem quite high but then you temp vaginally it might be different.

I also have stop and start AF, almost nothing on CD5 yesterday and nothing today. I am sure I am not done yet but because I was mainly seating and not moving much last few days I think I may get spotting after AF cos of poor circulation :( 

I stopped vitamins, no particular reason just cant be bothered. continue with chinese herbs but this morning after drinking it on an empty stomach felt so sick 

CD 6 for me, low on CBFM, will definitely look into black cohosh


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## Blythe

Yeah stopped the opk as had none left. Don't think I'm going to buy anymore from now on.....it would a strange month if I didn't ovulate between CDs 12-15 so I just need to make sure I cover those days. I usually feel ovulation so I'm just trying to find ways to make this less stressful. 

Have you dropped all vits? Based on my experience I recommend the folate as I just feel its better for me than the FA and I rate the black cohosh too. I will continue with the coq10 and I have had no adverse effects from the micronised dhea so will get some more of those. Based on how tomorrows acu appt goes I will probably drop the herbs as its too expensive and I just have not noticed any great changes.


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## Briss

I re-read my favorite post on vitamins https://www.fertilityfriends.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=226042.0 to get inspired and motivated to continue taking them. I've been on large doses of everything for 15 months on and off, my FSH is still high and AMh is low, hopefully it's improving the quality of my eggs. I still have enough old herbs to last me until my appointment with dr Z after which I will probably be taking her herbs. getting morally prepared to pay for all that ...

I know what you mean about OPK, last 8 cycles I O on CD11, do not even know why I brother with CBFM anymore, just gives me something to do I suppose and I still hope my cycle will get longer.

I've been looking through Dr Z's book, chapter on herbs and it's actually more familiar to me than Lews' herbs, I can recognise more names from my own list, maybe we get different herbs here in the UK than what they have in the US


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## Blythe

im off to last appt this morning so this will be 15 weeks of herbs and acu and over £800 spent in this shop. I have been thinking about reducing cost by just looking at acu with them but the more i read the more i think its the herbs that are much more important than the needling....although of course it can be a nice relaxing thing to do and is the best bit about it all.

Im just not convinced that those pots of powdered dried herbs in most high street TCM practitioners are really that great in terms of quality/strength rather than containing any nasties. I think that will be one of the great things about Dr Zhai's clinic...the herbs will be great quality....what day is your appt? is your DH going with you?

Im getting ready for the hard sell again today when i tell them i want a couple of weeks break so depending on that i will decide whether to return to them or go to someone else.


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## Briss

Blythe, I agree, from what I read it's the herbs that are considered to be the main treatment not acu. also because my right ovary hurts so much when needled I do not miss acu a bit. Maybe you could just do it every 2-3 weeks? I know that Dr Z sees some of her patients only once a month and it seems to be working.

To be honest I do not think Dr Z's herbs will be any different from other chinese shops, surely they get their herbs from the same suppliers? she is more expensive because of where her clinic is and also reputation etc. I might be wrong though. 

£800 for 15 weeks is not that bad, it's probably be twice as much for 4 weeks at dr Z... she also says it takes over 6 months to see any result


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## Blythe

i got the hard sell!! The receptionist sat me down and showed me the notes of another 40 year old who was 10 weeks pregnant. She explained she had kept doing the acu and herbs and had got pregnant twice - first she lost but this one sticking. The notes clearly showed she had done this through IVF but supported with acu and herbs. I said thats wonderful that she can afford to do both acu, herbs and IVF but that does not really effect me. Honestly, i cannot bear emotional blackmail.....it really has left a bad taste in my mouth and i think its wrong to try and pressure me into buying their herbs....Actually i can pay for it but im just not noticing any changes which justify the payments.

I did however sign up for 5 further weeks of acu as i like the doctor and find the treatments quite good. she showed me the herbal pills they would like me to go on and said they could do it at a reduced price - still works out at 16 quid per week - they are pills i can get on eBay so will check the prices in a mo. Im going to try and seek out a proper chinese herbalist that uses raw herbs and doesn't give me the hard sell.

the pills i made a note of were:

si wu tang wan

shi quan da bu wan


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## Briss

I checked the pills, they seem fine, some of the ingredients are on my list as well. although i read somewhere that raw herbs are the best, the next best thing is powder and after that pill form.

16 quid per week for herbs sounds cheap actually. how much did they charge for 5 weeks of acu? I am sure it's great that you will continue with acu, getting more blood directed to your reproductive organs cant be a bad thing 

I hate hard sell, I think I mentioned how I spent £400 in one visit... still ashamed of myself. I am still very puzzled why hubby's chinese friends do not go to chinese clinics on london, it kinda worries me. 

I ordered some more coq10 and pychogenol (for hubby) from nature's best, the higher natures' coq10 smells so bad I found it hard going.

I cant get enough sleep, feel so stressed and restless all the time, will have to go to the office tomorrow just cant properly concentrate at home


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## Blythe

:hugs: for you briss - i hope you are able to get your work done and rest up soon....gearing up for ovulation is stressful enough [working out the BDing schedule, having to be extra sensitive and nice to DH etc], on the other hand maybe not thinking so much about it all is a good thing. 

you are right about the herbs..im not sure if there is any point on spending £ on the tablets...will do some googling on it. I'm thinking i might just not take any until i find some other practitioner i have a good feeling about.


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## Blythe

im looking at a leaflet i picked up from another shop and they put the following pills under fertility treatment:

tao hong si wu 

nuan gong yun zi

have you tried these?


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## Briss

I have not tried these. 

I had tiao jing cu yun wan
https://www.google.co.uk/search?rlz...ge%3Dproduct_info%26products_id%3D207;400;348 but I did not like them I suspect they made me O early. Other pills were mainly ginseng related


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## Briss

here's one of my old threads on ginseng and other herbs and a herbalist actually recommends ginseng for pre AF spotting. have you tried ginseng?

https://babyandbump.momtastic.com/trying-conceive-over-35/468630-ginseng-anyone-2.html


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## Blythe

i used to take ginseng prior to TTC but have avoided it since....i don't know why. Maybe ive always thought of it as a natural caffeine substitute:wacko: This post was very interesting - thanks for the link :)


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## Briss

I am reading this article https://www.londonacupuncture.co.uk/images/photos/high fsh.pdf on high FSH (although I should really be working right now) and i think in my case it might be caused by Liver and Heart qi stagnation and interestingly my herbal formula is very similar to what this doc is suggesting. Maybe it's "empty heat" that's causing my shortened follicular phase? but then there seem to be only one answer - reducing work and life stress. I'd really want to know how to do that...


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## Blythe

Very interesting article with some nice case studies which have made me feel positive. I wish i knew how to stop stressing and thinking constantly about TTC. I try hard not to get stressed at work but its difficult. I have only stayed in my current role as the maternity package is good but I really don't like being there anymore. I feel like I'm just holding my breath and putting everything on hold until I conceive. 

I'm excited about your appt next week :)


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## shiseru

Wow you ladies are so active during weekends too?

MalaMae, i think you have done well! Hopefully the trip, discard all the bbt, opk and whatnot you feel more relax and it may happen, *YKWIM? :)

Briss, I have weird af after the hcg too, but i was told to skip ttc that month I did the hcg on m O day. Nevertheless it helps clear the co-web so the chances are higher 3 months following the procedure. GL! It's hard to find time to relax, the acu session gives me a great chance to, so I just lie down and focus on my breathing.

Blythe, your bbt shows a nice rise after O! You may be right about the med more important than the acu, my TCM told me the same. This amount £800 it would only allow 2 months for me (med and acu). Nevermind the cost, if we can bring home a healthy baby, it's all worth it! I still take ginseng and that gives me energy but now i stop, I will only take it after pregnant together with cordyceps.

Alison wow that is adventurous! We had bd during my first day of af before but that was during dating many years ago. I can't do it now haha! sorry about your af better chance next cycle!

AFM, i had my appt last sat, DH semen result is out, except morph at 1% everything is perfect. So doctor agree we try a femara with IUI next cycle! My friend said do not take the result too seriously because her DH was tested and everything came back below avg but he got her pregnant 5X!

*YKWIM - you know what i mean :)


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## MalaMae

Thanks Shiseru! :)
But what is YKWIM?


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## Blythe

Shiseru - it was me rather than briss that had the hsg....although briss has had one done but a good few months ago i think. Im 5dpo at mo and just bobbing along trying my hardest not to obsess!

Do you take the same pills every week? Is it only tablets you take or powder also?


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## Briss

spent the whole day at the office, so annoying - happy easter to me, feel totally exhausted. on top got something with my neck, cant move my head - agonising pain. supposed to be O on thursday, no BD yet :( am so stressed all the time do not think i'll get quality eggs this cycle


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## shiseru

Blythe, opps got confused who had the hsg hehe!You are right, it's hard not to obsess! I am 11DPO today and I am having af cramps since 9dpo. This cycle is a bust! 

Briss you are stuck at the office and not celebrating Easter? that really sucks! I think your neck pain is due to you being a little too tense, hope you find something to relax be it mani or pedi, massage all these helps! I have these once a month, seeing my pretty toe nails makes me happy :)


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## Blythe

Briss said:


> spent the whole day at the office, so annoying - happy easter to me, feel totally exhausted. on top got something with my neck, cant move my head - agonising pain. supposed to be O on thursday, no BD yet :( am so stressed all the time do not think i'll get quality eggs this cycle

:hugs:


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## Briss

blythe, your temp is so steady!


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## Blythe

Briss - i hope you are feeling a little better and the work lets up a bit this week.....is the end in sight yet? cant believe my temps - i was not going to temp but am totally intrigued to see if they will remain like this. If they do im tempted to sign up for some new herbs.

Shiseru - i can usually tell if my cycle is bust by 10 dpo as i get such strong noticeably cramping sometimes before this...I know my body so well now that AF has not surprised me at all in the last 2.5 years. I do so hope you are wrong but if you are not keep on soldiering on.

TTC is so relentless....my friend at work is about to leave for her maternity leave and i remember telling her about best way of detecting ovulation etc - even then i had been trying for bloody ages. My heart ached today when i realised she is off in only 2 weeks. happy for her just very sad for me :( Then i have tried to cheer myself up by pretending I'm a soldier and I'm marching and i just have to keep going and i will get there etc etc and it seems to have worked as im not so sad now :)


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## Blythe

Briss - forgot to ask what is going on with your neck??? can you get out one lunchtime this week and go to one of those chinese places and have a good rub down and get rid of some of that tension and hopefully ease your neck pain.


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## shiseru

Blythe, the feeling is awful! I remembered when I was pregnant with my first, the other colleague was pregnant as well so we were buddies. However, I lost my child at 20 weeks and when one of my colleague announced she gave birth, I cried uncontrollably in the office in front of my colleagues for a long long time. My heart was broken, tore when I heard the news. Everyone contributed some gifts or cash for her new born. I did not, what a sore loser I was...

I usually don't have cramps before af but recently I got PMS. And my feelings tell me this cycle is a bust and I was right. I was so happy to see my temp raised today (DPO12) so i caved and tested but... BFN! :'(


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## Blythe

Shiseru - sorry for your BFN but there is still time for this to change....your temps look great. I think you are amazing to have gone through what you did and come out the other side fighting...life can be very cruel sometimes:hugs: 

i had a nose at your blog - your daughter is very beautiful 

Malamae - wow...temps look very promising FX

Briss - have you caught up on your sleep yet? i see you have an extra HIGH this cycle :happydance:

AFM - very spotty which is odd this time in my cycle but i always get them a day or two before AF. no symptoms whatsoever....i usually get my pre-AF cramping during the next couple of days in my usual cycles so will see if that happens or not. Feeling ok about it now...thinking i will try about 4 more natural cycles then have an appt with private fertility clinic to discuss options. If i don't get pregnant this cycle then i will be 41+ when i get pregnant...i don't feel it but there it is.


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## Briss

Blythe, sorry about spotting but maybe it's a good sign? fingers crossed for implantation bleeding and getting a BFP before 41. I can so relate to colleagues going on maternity leave &#8211; very painful and may I add unnecessary reminder of how long we have been TTC&#8230; 

Shiseru &#8211; I agree with Blythe your temp looks really promising, fingers crossed (it takes a few days for the pregnancy hormone to get through to urine) 

MalaMae, your temp looks amazing, keep us posted 

I was so exhausted from work, stress and lack of sleep (cant sleep I have nightmares that something goes wrong with the deal&#8230; why do I even care? it's all subconsciously) and upset with hubby last night cos he did not want to BD and I was sure I will get a peak today and O tomorrow (as was the case for many months), in the end I sort of "raped" him only to find out this morning I got another HIGH. I mean I am thrilled I might be O later and have a longer cycle, just cant face another BD session&#8230; it's probably the stress that is delaying my O. also unusually for me I have almost no sex drive (even used preseed last night). Will do OPK when I get home just to be sure CBFM is not playing up 

My neck is not getting any better, I actually think it's nerves not muscles, will get to GP tomorrow cos I cant move my head and am in constant pain (I do not take painkillers cos against TTC rules)


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## Blythe

Thanks briss x I've had no spotting yet but am very spotty....acne type spotting on forehead with boil style spots on chin.....NICE!

Poor you that neck is not good...:( fitting the bd in at the right time is stressful enough! Hope that work eases up a bit soon.


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## MalaMae

Thanks girls. Did a pregnancy test- negative, but I hope it's false negative :)
I'm scared to hope. For the past 2 days I have some pinching sensation (like mild cramp, feels more like pinch) on the right side, 2 fingers left from ovary. Is that uterus area? I can't tell if af is coming or I can actually hope.

Blythe ans Shiseru- nice temps!! Blythe hopefully today temp is just a hiccup :)
Shiseru- fingers crossed it's false negative :)

Briss- chiropractor is amazing for the neck. Proved by me- couldn't even get up from bed by myself. Neck and shoulders- everything was stiffed for 2 months. I was like Robocop :)


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## shiseru

Blythe, I spent lots of $ to conceive my girl, but she is here and healthy so worth every penny spent! 7DPO is way too soon to tell by just looking at the temp. Cross fingers your temp goes back up tomorrow and a big BFP before 41!

Briss, glad you got one BD in yesterday, it's okay to skip today and you can have another one tomorrow. It's certainly not fun, having to bd because of ttc and not bd because of love! I feel tired sometimes... I have bad neck pain sometimes, often occurred when I couldn't sleep well and/or in the wrong sleeping posture and tired/stress. Get well soon!

MalaMae, great temp and hey 10 dpo is too early to tell! Give it another 3 days and test again! 

My temp took a nose dive this morning so am expecting the ugly witch to come in the next 2 days. I can then start the femara and call the hospital to arrange a scan on day 7 then proceed for my IUI. Here's hoping...


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## Briss

Blythe sorry I must have read your post too quickly, no spotting is great isn't it? I hate acne I am also getting all spotty, should not be happening at my age, although spots do cover up some of my wrinkles&#8230; gross! I do not understand what your temp is doing, this is very unusual for your post O temp but hopefully a good sign (thinking implantation dip). 

MalaMae, I so hope it's just a false negative. 

Shiseru, hopefully your temp will go back up tomorrow, sometimes even most depressing looking charts leads to BFP. let's wait a couple of days. 

CD11 and still HIGH!!! I did an OPK just to make sure my CBFM is not playing up and it was negative, it's either the stress or these old Chinese herbs I've been taking this cycle 

Was stuck in a lift this morning with two huge bumps discussing their due dates etc&#8230; I thought I was going to scream. Finally launched that bloody deal last night, there was so much drama going on, I cant really understand people getting seriously upset over these things, who cares, how can this be more important then getting me pregnant!


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## shiseru

Briss said:


> Was stuck in a lift this morning with two huge bumps discussing their due dates etc&#8230; I thought I was going to scream. Finally launched that bloody deal last night, there was so much drama going on, I cant really understand people getting seriously upset over these things, who cares, how can this be more important then getting me pregnant!

Oh that sucks!!!! Having to stuck in a small lift with 2 bumps! I had that awful experience once and I felt like someone strangled me I was like a fish out of the water I couldn't breathe!

Well looks like the witch is going to rear her ugly head tomorrow! So crampy this cycle wonder if it's cysts or whatnot. Tummy is a little upset, either the royal jelly or the bee pollen or the coq10 are causing it.

Do you ladies have any problems with these supplements?


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## Briss

Shiseru, sorry about the witch but your temp is still on your post O levels, maybe all not lost yet? I've been taking royal jelly, bee pollen and coq10 for a while and did not notice any effect to be honest. I stopped royal jelly and bee pollen and will be replacing it with natural honey that contains fresh royal jelly, bee pollen (this is what Blythe is taking) rather than in pill form.

Blythe, your temp does not usually go below the cover line mid LH so hoping it's implantation and it will start to rise in a day or two. 

Got my PEAK! finally and CD12, nice! I was actually getting concerned last night that my CBFM may be missing it (it's done it before) and I was getting my sex drive back last night and plenty of EWCM so jumped my hubby once more (he was so grumpy this morning) just in case. If I could squeeze one more BD out of hubby tomorrow I would be content that we've done out part.


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## Blythe

Briss - excellent news re ovulation this cycle. I wonder if it was those other herbs you were finishing off or just the extra stress this last week or two. In any case it's great and hopefully will result in something amazing for you :)

Shiseru - :hugs: for AF. Are you going to do a medicated iui round or unmediated this cycle? I have been looking into this as an option. 

Afm - I have the same old pre AF feelings I get this time in my cycle. I'm always prepared for AF as I get so much warning! So to get round the sadness I feel at this time in my cycle I like to spend a bucketload of cash on supplements for new cycle. I'm going to up dosage of dhea to 50mg per day. I realise I was taking a very low dose black cohosh this cycle so upping that too and will take cd 1-12. I also will up coq10 dosage. I will not take any Chinese herbs (other than bc) cos I just want a break from it but will continue with the acu. I am going to fertility yoga tonight so that will be good. Of course I'm always in with a chance until the witch shows do not completely over it I've had no spotting which is fab :)


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## Blythe

Halle berry is pregnant at 46.....gutted (standard) and chuffed at same time. Wonder if its natural.....

I lost my mind this week and brought an online fertility prediction (shame on me!) and apparently I'm going to conceive a girl in july and a boy in 2016...... Clearly a load of crap but I'm so desperate that i have taken some comfort from it :(


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## Briss

Blythe, I am very sorry you are getting the nasty pre AF feelings, I so hope things will be different for you this cycle. No spotting is fantastic! fingers crossed it will continue like that. I still have doubts about taking dhea long term. it&#8217;s a hormone that you should be producing yourself. I am so worried it may make you reduce your own production and then you will have to supplement all the time. I know everyone praises it and I can see why but if it does not help in 4-6 months I would definitely have a break. fertility yoga is great, I need to start doing it as well. 

I am very pleased to be finally O slightly later this cycle. It might be those other herbs I am finishing off (I really hope it's them) but most likely the extra stress. I will have to work again this weekend but just hoping I get to BD tomorrow.

I went to physiotherapist today and it was so painful! apparently it's due to me working 15 hours a day in front of the computer and being stressed, muscles got very stiff. She was working those neck and head muscles for an hour and I finally managed to turn my head! still painful but much better, I will go for another session next week. quite funny, although it was rather painful I was still kinda enjoying it, obviously being horny all the time approaching O makes me enjoy pretty much anything. I am such an easy target&#8230; am getting tonnes of EWCM, where are those spermies?


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## Blythe

I love any kind of massage pre ovulation.....I always get my money's worth! Briss you have got to make time for yourself and get away from the desk for a bit....no winder you've seized up.......I really hope you start to feel better soon. Thankfully it hasn't got in the way if BDing :)

I'm going to try increased dhea but only for a certain period. I think you are absolutely right re messing up our natural balance so I will treat with caution. I was not able to go to fertility yoga tonight as DH did not get home in time.


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## Briss

Blythe, looking at your chart, you might have O earlier than we thought but hard to say cos not enough temp before O. Still no spotting - that's great! 

Did not feel well today so did not go to work, will have to go tomorrow and do twice as much. but I did the most important thing today - BD!! I have familiar ovulation pains in my ovaries though cant say which one is ovulating, both seem to be hurting 

happy for Halle berry, most likely IVF. is it her first child? 

where did you buy fertility prediction? well, I believe in Chinese horoscope...


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## Blythe

https://psychic123ukreadings.net/

This is the place i brought fertility reading although it was full of gramatical errors and looked like a round robin. I have questioned her about it as i have read that some girls have got readings with more persinalnstuff in there. Its nuts as im not even into this stuff but just desperate for something, anything :( i have no clue about my cycle.. the opks i did use did get darker leading up to cd15 and i did feel pains then but the temps are just strange. In any case BFN today just to confirm what i already knew. 

Glad you get a bd session in today :) onto the 2ww then....i always like the beginning of that bit....hope its your last one (for a while at least) :)

Hope tomorrow goes ok and you plough through what needs to be done. I hate my job and bully bosses at the mo....i would be out of there if i had a mortgage sorted and/or no need for the maternity pckage.....got to keep focused on the long term safe in the knowledge i should be out of there within 2 years if all goes according to plan.


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## Blythe

Halle berry had her first at 41....


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## Briss

I am tempted to get a fertility reading but find it difficult to part with cash...

am watching a program "married to moonies" - nuts! people are getting married to strangers in the name of world peace 

I am also holding on to my job hoping it can see me through 2-3 maternity leaves :) although at this point it's not important anymore I can do it myself as long as I do get pregnant :) last few weeks have been tough but hopefully next week it will get easier. my appraisal is coming up, will be demanding a bonus as i definitely exceeded my target hours this year.


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## Blythe

Malamae - Any news?


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## Briss

MalaMae, your chart looks super promising, fingers crossed!


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## MalaMae

Nah, AF arrived today. Oh, well, what can we do?! That's life! :)


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## shiseru

MalaMae, sorry to know your af is here. Better luck next cycle. Any plans to go for IUI/IVF?

Briss, glad to know you got one BD in! One more BD would be a bonus! Try different position to spice things up maybe? :D

Blythe, I read the Royal jelly contains DHEA! Read this https://genderdreaming.com/forum/hi...ng-non-member-forum/1156-wow-rj-has-dhea.html is it necessary to up the dose?

afm, I have started femara, tonight is my 3rd pill. I was told to go back for a scan this Thursday and check the progress to see how well i respond to the med. I am hoping for at least 2 follicles but I doubt so, since doc puts me on lowest dosage of 2.5mg so it's probably gonna be just 1. Oh well, better 1 than nothing!


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## Blythe

Malamae - :hugs: for AF...your cycles look so much healthier from your charts and from the temps looks like theres a good supply of progesterone in your 2WW so when that golden egg does come along it should be plain sailing from thereon. Im not far behind you and expect AF on weds....Its easier to BD in the springtime as its not so freezing....Honestly BDing in the winter is a pain and having to get naked is just painful in my freezing house so bring on the spring/summer time BFPs :)

Briss - are you still working silly hours? When is appt with Dr Z?

Shiseru - your dosage sounds sensible...im a bit wary of overstimulating the ovaries and would prefer to take low dose drugs or try a natural round as you only need the one. look forward to seeing how you get on....GL with the scan on thurs. Interesting about the RJ - i take a mixture of english honey, bee pollen and RJ...im not taking pure RJ but i am tempted....ive found someone that sells it on ebay so will see.

AFM - had acu yesterday and he put some more needles in top of head and it acted like a sleeping pill...i began session with the usual overthinking about work/TTC/Dallas etc and finished it by barely being able to open my eyes. It was great. I told them i was having a break from herbs and they didnt push it this time so pleased about that. I will be doing Black Cohosh 120 mg per day CD 1-12 so that will do for my chinese herbs for this cycle. 

I have decided to keep OPKing and temping as i want as much info as possible about my cycles as i may try IUI or even IVF later this year. It would be an absolute last resort and a bit daft really financially speaking as neither of us are particularly well paid and we are trying to save for a deposit. Still my birthday looming around the corner has brought things into focus for me.


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## alison29

Don't feel bad i have bought more then one ttc reading..ugh wo


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## Blythe

Hi alison - what predictions did you get? I should be pregnant with a girl conceiving in July this year and a boy dec 2016 :wacko::wacko:

How are you?


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## Briss

MalaMae, very sorry about AF. do you have a plan for the next cycle? trying anything new?

Shiseru, what is femara for? is it like chlomid to stimulate ovulation and make you produce more than 1 egg? 

Blythe, natural IUI should not be as expensive and I think it's more natural than the rest of it. if we had enough sperm I would go for it every other cycle.

afm, still working terrible hours :( I am seeing Dr Z on Thursday, cant persuade DH to join me. She asked me to fill in the form in advance and I also sent her all my charts and a list of vitamins my DH and I have been taking. but I do not want to disclose a list of my herbs until I hear what she thinks about my deficiencies.

My temp is a bit of a mystery to me, it's not rising! I know FF gave me cross hairs on CD12 but it's still pre-O levels. yesterday and today I had really strong left ovary pains but my sex drive and EWCM disappeared so I may have ovulated on CD13 but no temp rise to show for it :(


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## shiseru

Blythe, it seem the acu session you had made you relax! I like to opk and temp so I know about my cycle. Initially I thought I would just temp around ovulation and once I got my crossline i would stop bbt but I couldn't stop it's addictive! It's good to have some plans ahead, you can consider IUI first provided your DH semen is good. IVF will always be the last resort, it's such a long and emotional roller coaster.

alison29, how are you doing? 

Briss, yes femara is like clomid but heard it got less side effect as it would not thin your lining. Unlikely to get OHSS with Femara unless doc up the dosage to 10mg you probably have 3-4 follicles. With 2.5mg, I may be getting just 1 or the most 2 follicle. I had clomid for 3 cycles at 50mg produce 2 follicle but all BFN. So here's hoping Femara does the trick. Your BBT, it looks like you have a slow rise this cycle!


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## Blythe

Briss - your temps overall a little lower than last cycle and the rise seems similar to last cycle....im sure you will see it rise in the next couple of days.....very frustrating when our temps dont seem to match what our bodies feel like they are doing.

Shiseru - did you have clomid with iui or by itself? Have you ever tried soy isoflavines?


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## alison29

Blythe said:


> Hi alison - what predictions did you get? I should be pregnant with a girl conceiving in July this year and a boy dec 2016 :wacko::wacko:
> 
> How are you?

I have uti from catheter in procedure and the symptoms won't go ugh misery.

Gail said august 2011
Cherie said July birth conceive or find out in (sometimes it is not always the same year.)

Mesina said I will paste hers. I really like mesina she is always booked up i think she does actually communicate with spirt. hold on


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## alison29

My question is will I conceive in 2012? Or ever again?

additional info might help you interpret the message/cards.

I do feel there is another child to come for you and feel that this child
will be a little boy. Your twins look to me around the age of 6 when he is
born, as I see an image of you showing the little one to them and 6&#8217;s appear
over their heads &#8211; and they look around that age. I sense that conception
may not take place this year, but early next and feel that this boy will be
born late 2013 &#8211; around November/December time. I believe you will conceive
around February, as I am seeing strength in this month for conception and
some sort of structure taking place in January that allows for the
conception in Feb. For this month there is a change that is happening which
is necessary to settle the body and spirit say that he is not ready to come
just yet &#8211; that things need to happen first before he makes his way here.

I keep feeling as though you should trust your instincts in the coming
months &#8211; I believe that you are very in tune with your body and seem to know
when things are changing or happening. I am convinced that medical
intervention may be needed, as I just keep seeing doctors involved again in
this little boy&#8217;s conception. This may be something that you are already
exploring, but I do feel that something needs to help. I am not sure if this
will be IUI again, or a different route as those details are spared and
Spirit say you will explore what you need to in order to bring this to
manifestation.

I do feel that there is a lot of heaviness this year however with
conception. I feel emotionally you are more than ready for this little boy,
yet there is a part of you very saddened by the fact that nothing is
happening yet. You are a wonderful Mother, I feel that you give above and
beyond to your children so to have this feeling that things do not work
easily for you in this aspect of life is frustrating and heart breaking.
However, I will say that because of this you give more to your children than
many other mothers and will never take them for granted.

Trust in the timing &#8211; I know that it is the right time for this little one
to arrive. While I do not see you pregnant this year, I do feel that he will
be worth the wait and the pregnancy will go very well.

As a soul, this little boy is such a sweetheart. He has a lot of creative
energies about him and is quite sociable. He loves to be in the center of
attention and will likely have a lot of friends and people who know him due
to his natural charm. He&#8217;s going to be quite the Mama&#8217;s boy when he is
young! As a teen I expect him to be very involved with friends and
relationships. As an adult he will strive for family values and make an
excellent father. He will do well in life to push himself in his career, but
only because he will want to be a good provider for his children and
partner.

Good luck to you! I know that this may not be the news that you wanted to
hear just yet as I am sure you are wanting so much to have a pregnancy this
year. However I do believe that the timing is essential and this little guy
doesn&#8217;t quite seem ready yet.

Blessings,
Mesina


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## Blythe

Alison - wow that is quite detailed - did you tell her you had twins? [do you have twins?] I got mine from Physic123 and i think that is gail.

im sorry you have a UTI - misery indeed. I hope it clears up very soon :hugs:


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## alison29

yeah I did i wanted her to be able to interpret the messages right I told her i had twins conceived from IUI. So i don't know if i should have given so much info. My twins will be six in at the end of February so that I guess anytime from june on if she is right. I have read a lot about wrong readings though so even though i do believe it's just hard to get email readings prob. I am around o time and have not done anything to track it. Bd sunday night but didn't lay still or anything to keep stuff in so prob should at least try tonight if i want to be in the game at all this month. It is cd 14. I have been too busy looking for floaters in my pee instead of testing for surges and temping.

Shiseru I like femara much better than clomid it has less side effects than clomid won't thin your lining as much. 

Hi Briss ! 

Psychic123 is gail. Mesina's was not that expensive for all that she wrote to me. She did hit the nail on the head with my sadness/heaviness over my body just not working the way it is supposed to. This year both my SIL got knocked up in one month so i guess comparing myself to them made me even more sad if you know what i mean because a lot of women's bodies work right. Also because I had primary and secondary infertility I really appreciate the blessing of ever getting pregnant at all unlike aforementioned sister in law's who get pregnant and lock themselves in the bathroom to cry about it for two hours. We should all be so lucky you know?


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## Briss

Alison, sorry about UTI, I got it after lap, quite dreadful but easily treatable with antibiotics (there is a kind that you can take while TTC)

Ladies. very interesting about these predictions. I am so intrigued 

I'm getting fatter and fatter, no trousers fit me anymore :( but I have no motivation to exercise or diet, am so tired from working non-stop


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## shiseru

Alison, wow that prediction is really detailed. Interesting! I had this Fengshui master that came to me every year, said I have 3 children, 2 girls and 1 boy. I lost 1 baby girl and one at 8 weeks, this little one is my 3rd, so there, 3! I wonder is that it? :(

Sorry about your UTI I hope it clears up soon take some cranberries it's good for preventing UTI.

Indeed I don't have any side effects from Femara, so far so good tonight is my last pill and I will go in for a scan tomorrow.

Blythe, I took clomid but no IUI, just TI. I heard of soy isoflavines but didn't try. Not sure how it works, is it the same as Clomid and Femara?

Briss, work stress can definately cause weight gain! Well you don't have to diet or exercise a lot. I remembered I had glucose resistance when I was pregnant so i had to control my sugar level, I went on low GI diet, cut down carbo but lots of protein and fiber. I lost all baby weight in 2 weeks after giving birth and shed another 35 pounds after that!


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## alison29

Briss it does get old having to diet and excercise all the time I am sitting here not wanting to walk during my lunch hour and craving chocolate..I sure hope that guy was wrong shiseru. Well most of them are wrong I hate to say it so why not him too.


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## Briss

Thank you ladies, do not know what to do with myself just finished off a couple of chocolate eclairs... so much for losing weight 

finally my temp's decided to move up, on 4-5 DPO. Was told today that will have to go on yet another business trip next week, basically will be flying all over europe most of next week, not great for the second part of TWW :( and also because of that will have to spend yet another weekend at the office 

Blythe, how are you? just saw your chart, I am so sorry about AF...it's all so hard


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## Briss

just got a nasty wake up call, hubby's bought this machine that can measure your everything and my body fat is apparently 31%, I googled it and:

Essential Body Fat: 10%-13%
Athletes/Body Builders: 14%-18%
Average Healthy Female: 19%-27%
Borderline: 28%-31%
Overfat: 32%
Obese: 38%

I was skinny most of my life, how did I manage to turn into borderline fat category after 3 years of TTC... truly depressing, most people are concerned with baby fat, I still have no baby, just fat :(

That machine also said I do not have enough water, my biological age is 33 and I should not eat more than 1200 calories a day

Blythe, what do you think about going back to juicing? it's supposed to be much warmer by the end of the week


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## shiseru

Wow Briss why did you DH buy a machine that measure fats? Did he need it himself or.. is he encourage you to lose weight? Drink lots of water to keep yourself hydrated, juice is great too! I put on a little weight after 3 rounds of clomid! 

I went in for a scan this morning CD7, my lining is 6.5mm. follicle size is 12.5mm, 5mm (LO) and 6mm, 7mm (RO)

Looks like there will only be one dominant...


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## Briss

just had my app with Dr Z, will post a more detailed report later when I have more time but in short I did not feel it was worth 250 pounds, I would need to pay much more to start the actual treatment. She said a lot of general stuff that we know anyway about lifestyle etc. I managed by some miracle to persuade my hubby to come with me (had to promise that I will pay) and he just got a confirmation that it's all just a lot of nonsense. In the same way as my FS she did not pay much attention to my DH's low sperm count and just said that if my body is well I can get pregnant with any kind of sperm count. I really want to believe this but I do not think it's true. One of the scariest things she said after looking at my list of herbs (from my previous doc) is that I should stop them immediately because they are causing my cycle to get shorter which she thinks is a problem. So basically I paid for 4 months acu and herbs just to screw my health even worse? She said that every doc has a different style but that's not the combination of herbs she would prescribe ever to smb with my deficiencies. I am seriously upset


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## Blythe

Oh briss I am upset to read this :( what a huge dissappointment and I totally understand your anger and upset over the herbs comment. I'm feeling very cynical about it all right now although have ordered some herbal pills from eBay.... Which I will take pre ovulation. 

Will you proceed with a treatment programme with her? It all seems such a gamble but I suppose I hold onto those wonderful stories of women who have those acu/herbs successes. 

I will look forward to reading more about it later :hugs:


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## melly2

Briss said:


> just had my app with Dr Z, will post a more detailed report later when I have more time but in short I did not feel it was worth 250 pounds, I would need to pay much more to start the actual treatment. She said a lot of general stuff that we know anyway about lifestyle etc. I managed by some miracle to persuade my hubby to come with me (had to promise that I will pay) and he just got a confirmation that it's all just a lot of nonsense. In the same way as my FS she did not pay much attention to my DH's low sperm count and just said that if my body is well I can get pregnant with any kind of sperm count. I really want to believe this but I do not think it's true. One of the scariest things she said after looking at my list of herbs (from my previous doc) is that I should stop them immediately because they are causing my cycle to get shorter which she thinks is a problem. So basically I paid for 4 months acu and herbs just to screw my health even worse? She said that every doc has a different style but that's not the combination of herbs she would prescribe ever to smb with my deficiencies. I am seriously upset

Hi Bris,

Mel here...the girl that her hubby has a pathetic 2.5 million count, too. I'm call BS on the quote from your FS that said, "If you're body is healthy, doesnt' matter what the sperm count is". That's simply not true at all. First off, I'm extremely healthy and lean, running marathons for the past 7 years. My body fat is about 19%. The one "off" thing with me is I have long cycles due to my exercise, however, they are very healthy cycles when they come around. I feel like my body is very healthy and ideal to facilitate a pregnancy; however, it's all my hubby's fault. :nope:

To see the impact of sperm count read this article: https://health.nytimes.com/health/guides/disease/infertility-in-men/print.html 
Basically, as my husband said, he's not even at the starting gates, according to this article, especially read the paragraph about the "The Path to the Egg". Kinda sobering. After reading this, my husband and I are convinced that it is all him now...and according to our FS and his urologist, it is.

Sure, losing weight will help and can't hurt, but I think your fertility issues are more likely due to the man, in this case.


----------



## Briss

she also said it's OK for him to drink alcohol!!! I thought I was going to explode, it was such a difficult thing to get him to quit beer and obviously now all my arguments and months of persuasion are out of the window. the main reason I went to her is because she talks a lot in her book about how easy it is to treat men and I was hoping she can prescribe him a herbal formula or smth, no such luck. 

My DH actually was annoyed cos he is convinces that Dr Z was coping my other doc's herbal formula (after she explained how bad it was)

At the moment I am just really confused


----------



## alison29

That sucks bad briss, I am glad you are with someone whom you trust more now. For now I am just sticking with Pregnitude and fish oil and giving hubby alive whole nutriets liquid everyother day or so , fish oil and 1000 mg vit c. I think i was pounding us with too much before and it caused us to go iron deficienct (too much mg maybe?). Trying to get us to drink more water as both reproductive systems are fluid and he has weird joint paint which we think is dehydration.

I have dreams a lot of gett BFPs (really dark lines) and feeling a litle tiny baby in them too vivid. Last night all my friends were also pg too and I was telling one of them ,"but you don't understand what a big deal this is for me it is something i have wanted for 4 yrs". UGH then the alarm beeps this morning, pathetic.

BRiss would you guys think of doing IUI?


----------



## melly2

Briss said:


> she also said it's OK for him to drink alcohol!!! I thought I was going to explode, it was such a difficult thing to get him to quit beer and obviously now all my arguments and months of persuasion are out of the window. the main reason I went to her is because she talks a lot in her book about how easy it is to treat men and I was hoping she can prescribe him a herbal formula or smth, no such luck.
> 
> My DH actually was annoyed cos he is convinces that Dr Z was coping my other doc's herbal formula (after she explained how bad it was)
> 
> At the moment I am just really confused

Ugh! Sorry to hear that. My doctor, and husband's doctor has said that with his sperm counts, it's almost impossible to get pregnant unless we get his counts up! So...I have him on a restricted diet, weekly acupunture, supplements, herbs, and he is taking Clomid, which his doctor prescribed. We're not sure if we can get his counts up due to his testicular cancer, but we're trying. He is due for another test this week. Also, I told him to drink a lot more water throughout the day, as he tends to run really dry and his volume is very low. We're trying this naturally for the next 5-6 months, and if not, then we'll have to explore other options. Good luck!!


----------



## shiseru

Briss, there is definitely impact in TTC if the sperm is not strong.. but TCM does help! The TCM that I am with, there are 2 couples' DH with very low sperm count, low motility managed to conceive with the help of TCM. Me - after 2 tragic losses started TCM and found my cycles and health improved and carried a baby to term. My DH can only perform once or most 2x before the TCM but is now able to BD more during the fertile period. However, it needs both hands to clap in order to suceed that means both parties must maintain healthy throughout the TTC journey. Well did you notice any difference after you and your DH started the herbs? 

I think you should just take her comments with a pinch of salt. And seriously... cut down alcohol.

Alison, before I knew i was pregnant, i have dreams about BFP too.. and it came true after a few months! So that's pretty positive!

I am going in for another scan tomorrow CD9, they said if the size is mature we can have the trigger and IUI at the same time. I am not comfortable doing that. I know washed sperm can survive 48 hours, but they lose the potency after 6 hours so it's best to have the IUI near to ovulation, that would mean at least 24 hours after the HCG trigger. I'll just have to decide tomorrow what to do.


----------



## Briss

The appointment was 20 min late which was rather annoying because my DH and I were taking time off work and also it was really hard to get my DH to go there in the first place so he was trying to use every excuse to leave. After we were finally showed in, we spent some time going through her form and answering outstanding questions (the usual TCM questions (but limited in number compared to Lewis' list) and medical history questions). She started with getting my age wrong, she thought I was 45! (thank you very much, do I REALLY look like 45?) then she gave us a speech about women between 35-45 being pre-menopausal and having difficulties conceiving. She also talked about lifestyle changes for quite a bit but I just remember holding my pen waiting until she says something important to take a note of and did not write anything in the end because everything she said was quite basis stuff and we all know that (eat well, fruit and veg, exercise, relax etc). But she did mention actually a few things that we should avoid which includes chili/curry, cold drinks and sugar is also in "avoid" category (I really need to take this seriously and start a war on chocolate) she also explained what TCM is and how acu and herbs are used (I did not need to pay 250 pounds to hear that) So I do not really have that much to say about this part. In the end she gave us a list of lifestyle recommendations where she ticked what applies to my DH and I which is helpful.

Then she checked my pulse and tongue and her assistant and she immediately said "red"! like it means something. I asked what it meant and she said she will explain but she never properly did actually. but when she was examining my tongue she looked at her assistant and said "worry". Later she also said it means I have excessive heat. They also examined my DH, you should see her face when she saw his tongue! Apparently it was "yellow" and dry and it also means excessive heat (I was actually suspecting it because my DH drinks so much water and he is often red). I asked why I have excessive heat while I am always cold? she tried explanting it, something to do with different organs or channels but I am still not quite getting it. She also said I have lever stagnation (something I suspected all along based on Lewis' list) which is causing excess heat and she said they need to clear all these accesses before true picture of my state appears. 

Turning to my DH, apart from heat she mentioned nothing else really so I am still at a loss as to what his problem is. According to her our failure to conceive is all my fault and his miserable 2.8 million sperm count have nothing to do with it. I doubt it based on the huge numbers of women struggling to conceive with DHs low sperm counts. "you only need one" principal does not really work because for this one to get through you need ideally hundred millions to increase the odds. She said she can only treat him after I have been dealt with because my body is the key. Before she can prescribe what herbs I need to be taking I am supposed to do the blood test on CD1-3 but when I was told that it's going to be around 700 pounds (together with sperm test) I changed my mind. I am thinking I will try to get some of these tests for free from my FS (I am seeing her in May).

About herbs, she gave me a list of herbs and ticked 8 of them - I assume the ones I will be taking and said I would need to start with raw herbs (not powders) and she gave me instructions on how to boil them (takes over an hour!) twice a day. The cost is 10 pounds a day. One important thing she mentioned about herbs is that they should not be taken when ill particularly if it's cold (presumably because they clear heat). For acu, it would be enough if I came once a fortnight and every visit is 130 pounds.

re charts, I sent her all my 18 charts hoping she would study them to prepare for the appointment because there is a wealths of information there, I record all my symptoms on a daily basis but she did not. she started showing me how to chart my temps... I showed her my chars I do not think she particularly wanted to review them but she did and found that my first follicular phase is problematic, temps go too high and it's on a short side, not great. i need to concentrate on improving it. no idea how

vitamins, again I sent her a list of my DH and my vitamins which is really big and was hoping she can say whether we are on the right track but instead she was just trying to make us buy hers. I previously looked at hers and i do not think they have anything I am not currently taking

My DH's conclusion was that this is a lot of non-sense as he thought and it's for people who have plenty of spare cash to waste. I came out feeling very confused. Obviously upset because she criticised my other doc's herbal formula - this just makes me distrust TCM practitioners generally including Dr Z and I understand why my DH's chinese friends do not go to chinese docs in London - they cant tell who is good. My gut feeling is that she was right about my doc because since I started going to her my acne got out of control - sign of heat, isn't it? as soon as I stopped taking her herbs and returned back to my old doc's herbs I do not have any new spots coming out and I ovulated later (still probably due to stress more than anything) so I am thinking that might be that very first doc I went to a year ago was not that bad after all, I know I came out all bruised and feeling horrible but my acne got better and she did this painful procedure to clear heat - which is basically my issue. maybe I should go back to her? another option is to try to get these blood tests done (obviously without paying a small fortune) and then go to Dr Z


----------



## Briss

shiseru, that's the thing after 4 months of acu my cycle did not improve and my acne was getting out of control. I was hoping that acu and herbs were improving my egg quality (something you cant really see) but now I am not so sure. I wish I could get my DH to do acu and herbs but he is so against it. I manage to give him some chinese pills that are supposed to improve his sperm. My DH agreed to stop beer completely for 3 months which is expiring on 20 May he is now threatening that he is going to start binge drinking, he is clearly not enjoying the experience. Good luck with the trigger, I agree that ideally you want it as close as possible to O but it's so difficult to time it perfectly so it might be safer to get the sperm there early rather than risking getting them there too late

Melly, thanks for the link that's very interesting. have you had a repeat SA to check if the vitamins acu etc had any effect on your DH's sperm count? My DH has similar sperm count it would be so interesting to see whether it's all working 

Alison, I have these dreams too and I feel so happy until I wake that is, I find that things come to you when you do not think about them. I do not think it's possible for TTC, I cant think of anything else. 

Blythe, how are you doing? 

I am pleased to see FF moved my O to CD13 - result! My deal did not go through, gutted after all the hours I've put in but slightly relieved there is less to do next week. Am working again tomorrow! when will I get my weekends back


----------



## Blythe

Briss said:


> The appointment was 20 min late which was rather annoying because my DH and I were taking time off work and also it was really hard to get my DH to go there in the first place so he was trying to use every excuse to leave. After we were finally showed in, we spent some time going through her form and answering outstanding questions (the usual TCM questions (but limited in number compared to Lewis' list) and medical history questions). She started with getting my age wrong, she thought I was 45! (thank you very much, do I REALLY look like 45?) then she gave us a speech about women between 35-45 being pre-menopausal and having difficulties conceiving. She also talked about lifestyle changes for quite a bit but I just remember holding my pen waiting until she says something important to take a note of and did not write anything in the end because everything she said was quite basis stuff and we all know that (eat well, fruit and veg, exercise, relax etc). But she did mention actually a few things that we should avoid which includes chili/curry, cold drinks and sugar is also in "avoid" category (I really need to take this seriously and start a war on chocolate) she also explained what TCM is and how acu and herbs are used (I did not need to pay 250 pounds to hear that) So I do not really have that much to say about this part. In the end she gave us a list of lifestyle recommendations where she ticked what applies to my DH and I which is helpful.
> 
> Then she checked my pulse and tongue and her assistant and she immediately said "red"! like it means something. I asked what it meant and she said she will explain but she never properly did actually. but when she was examining my tongue she looked at her assistant and said "worry". Later she also said it means I have excessive heat. They also examined my DH, you should see her face when she saw his tongue! Apparently it was "yellow" and dry and it also means excessive heat (I was actually suspecting it because my DH drinks so much water and he is often red). I asked why I have excessive heat while I am always cold? she tried explanting it, something to do with different organs or channels but I am still not quite getting it. She also said I have lever stagnation (something I suspected all along based on Lewis' list) which is causing excess heat and she said they need to clear all these accesses before true picture of my state appears.
> 
> Turning to my DH, apart from heat she mentioned nothing else really so I am still at a loss as to what his problem is. According to her our failure to conceive is all my fault and his miserable 2.8 million sperm count have nothing to do with it. I doubt it based on the huge numbers of women struggling to conceive with DHs low sperm counts. "you only need one" principal does not really work because for this one to get through you need ideally hundred millions to increase the odds. She said she can only treat him after I have been dealt with because my body is the key. Before she can prescribe what herbs I need to be taking I am supposed to do the blood test on CD1-3 but when I was told that it's going to be around 700 pounds (together with sperm test) I changed my mind. I am thinking I will try to get some of these tests for free from my FS (I am seeing her in May).
> 
> About herbs, she gave me a list of herbs and ticked 8 of them - I assume the ones I will be taking and said I would need to start with raw herbs (not powders) and she gave me instructions on how to boil them (takes over an hour!) twice a day. The cost is 10 pounds a day. One important thing she mentioned about herbs is that they should not be taken when ill particularly if it's cold (presumably because they clear heat). For acu, it would be enough if I came once a fortnight and every visit is 130 pounds.
> 
> re charts, I sent her all my 18 charts hoping she would study them to prepare for the appointment because there is a wealths of information there, I record all my symptoms on a daily basis but she did not. she started showing me how to chart my temps... I showed her my chars I do not think she particularly wanted to review them but she did and found that my first follicular phase is problematic, temps go too high and it's on a short side, not great. i need to concentrate on improving it. no idea how
> 
> vitamins, again I sent her a list of my DH and my vitamins which is really big and was hoping she can say whether we are on the right track but instead she was just trying to make us buy hers. I previously looked at hers and i do not think they have anything I am not currently taking
> 
> My DH's conclusion was that this is a lot of non-sense as he thought and it's for people who have plenty of spare cash to waste. I came out feeling very confused. Obviously upset because she criticised my other doc's herbal formula - this just makes me distrust TCM practitioners generally including Dr Z and I understand why my DH's chinese friends do not go to chinese docs in London - they cant tell who is good. My gut feeling is that she was right about my doc because since I started going to her my acne got out of control - sign of heat, isn't it? as soon as I stopped taking her herbs and returned back to my old doc's herbs I do not have any new spots coming out and I ovulated later (still probably due to stress more than anything) so I am thinking that might be that very first doc I went to a year ago was not that bad after all, I know I came out all bruised and feeling horrible but my acne got better and she did this painful procedure to clear heat - which is basically my issue. maybe I should go back to her? another option is to try to get these blood tests done (obviously without paying a small fortune) and then go to Dr Z


Thank you briss for noting this all down.....im very interested to read of your experience. I think im miffed most about the fact that she charges so much yet it lacks the personal touch. I would have expected her to have done her homework on you and have looked at your charts. I think she would have been better off asking what your experince of ttc and tcm was at the beginning before spending all that time talking to you about obvious stuff you already know.....obviously if you are new to this that info is crucial but i cannot imagine many of her clients are new to ttc......fruit and veg, relax..yes, yes, yes.....yawn.....although chilli avoidance recommendation for you is good as you are clearly already hot! Not so me....so heat creating foods are something i should go for. It would have been good to get a clearer explanation as to why you have that excess heat but still feel the cold.

45......how dare she!!!

Yes i think you have been treated for kidney yany deficiency in the past (the obvious go to diagnosis for girls ttc).....i think you have plenty of yang/heat already hence the increased acne with your last treatment plan. I would be very tempted to get her herbal prescription and do the herbs for a month or two....get a list of exactly what she has given you and buy them yourself from thereon......wont she do the herbs until you have sorted the Cd3 bloods?

I had my cd3 bloods done with my first FS appt in March......yes get them sorted in may....not long now.


Im ok.....im CD5 today and my period has been nice and steady and mostly red without clots....so quite a good one...not sure if it was post HSG effect or the black cohosh. I was intending to take BC CDs 1-10 but i wont pick the pills up until today so may leave it this cycle and try next....then i was thinking about doing soy isoflavines CD 5-9 but now probably wont....i did do them for a three month period last year with no joy but do recall having very strong ovulation pains each time......something for the back burner.

Upping my dose of dhea has certainly given me a natural lift in terms of energy and im staying up later with no ill effect the next day.....i feel positively younger. Skin is reacting but nothing to mortifying....yet! 

I have some chinese herbal pills turning up today so will knock them back this week pre ovulation....will post link to them in a mo.....

i no longer have any tone in my body....i used to be fit and strong but now am lardy and lazy.....am going to do some smoothies working back up to juicing then possibly starting next cycle with another juice fast attempt....something else to focus on to take edge off the obvious :)


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## Blythe

This is what i have coming.......

Nuan Gong Yun Zi Wan, is an all natural Chinese herbal supplement that is traditionally used for the treatment of female infertility. According to Traditional Chinese Medicine (TCM), it is best for cases due to cold in the uterus.

Although prescribed most commonly for infertility, Nuan Gong Yun Zi Pian can also be used to relieve other conditions such as dysmenorrhea (painful menstruation), delayed or irregular menstruation, deficiency type lower abdominal pain, soreness of the low back, threatened miscarriage and/or fatigue.

Western medicine acknowledges the importance of warmth in the reproductive cycle as well. For example, the hormone progesterone is known to have a thermogenic effect on the body and is responsible for preparing the endometrium for implantation of the egg after ovulation and fertilization. Lower levels of progesterone may result in a shortened luteal phase, also referred to as luteal phase defect and is typically considered an ovulatory disorder which can lead to infertility. The importance of harmonizing Yin and Yang in the treatment of infertility cannot be overstated. 

Although uterine cold is of course closely linked to Yang deficiency, deficiencies of Kidney Qi, Spleen Qi, blood deficiency and blood stasis are also commonly present in cases of infertility where cold in the uterus is predominant. Nuan Gong Yun Zi Wan not only effectively warms the uterus but also tonifies blood without engendering stasis, boosts Kidney Qi, Yin and Yang while soothing the Liver and warming the meridians. This balanced approach makes Nuan Gong Yun Zi Wan an indispensible supplement in the TCM treatment of infertility.


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## Blythe

Just failed to get size 12 jean on.....nowhere near getting zip done up. Starting juicing/smoothies today! Had jam on toast earlier and that will be last solid food for a week (yeah right!)


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## Briss

Oh Blythe, I was always size 6-8., now I would not even come close to size 12 trousers = scared they wont fit or I wont be able to breathe in them :( there is nothing wrong with being size 12 mind you, but it's just more than my norm probably because I am short I just look so big and so pregnant cos it's all around my tummy. I am so flabby and soft, disgusting! that's it, I am announcing a war on sugar :( (again) but I cant bring myself to exercise in TWW, am convinced this will affect implantation but determined to get off my sofa and just walk around London for a few hours every weekend


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## Blythe

we are so focused and determined with TTC and very disciplined when it comes to supplements and googling stuff yet when it comes to what i eat i cannot control it. I am also soft....agree...Yucky!

since announcing new juice/smoothie fast this morning i have had beans and omelette and 2 x giant chocolate cookies.....today i don't like myself :(


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## Briss

I've been good so far, had latte, porridge and berries and got myself some smoked salmon, salad and nuts for later, I've got no chocolate in the office and am stuck here until midnight probably but if I feel I cant bear it I have some raisins and prunes, fingers crossed.

Met my old friend this morning, she is the only one left who is still TTC after 2 years. She is also the only one in her department who has not gone on at least one maternity leave, on top of that she is sharing an office with a bump who is about to go on her second maternity and wont shut up about how great her baby is&#8230; 

I am experience what I previously thought was some sort of uterine twinges and I used to think that was implantation but obviously after 3 years it cant be that, today it actually occurred to me that this has nothing to do with uterus it's more likely to be in my bladder. I wonder what could be causing this, it's always in TWW


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## Briss

baishaoyao, baizhu, bohe, fuling, cancao, mudanpi, shanzhizi, xiakucao

that's the herbs Dr Z ticked on my list, I presume I am supposed to be taking them but it's not official prescription because she would not prescribe anything until she sees my bloods. So I do not think I will be taking these but thought I'd share. my previous doc had me on 18 herbs


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## Briss

just wanted to share an interesting article on DHEA, apparently DHEA levels decline not because of age but because of prolonged stress.

https://www.drdebe.com/dhea-the-real-story.html

it's also important to get off DHEA gradually to make sure that the body has recovered and is again making DHEA on its own.


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## Blythe

Thank you for posting link....very interesting.

to be honest the only thing i feel good taking [mentally rather than physically] is the COQ10 and possibly the folate....the rest of it im just not really comfortable taking but having read so many positive stories im doing it anyway. I often feel i am rolling a dice taking this, that and the other...last year i did soy for 3 months and read all sorts about messing around with oestrogen levels....but i have been considering it again regardless.

i have been taking the micronised DHEA for nearly 2 months so i will continue with DHEA for a while yet but certainly look to reduce dosage before quitting altogether....so that is good to know having read the article that cutting completely is not the best way forward. thank you:flower:

i have some electronic scales in the house and they give me a different reading depending on surface placed on. I am 11 st 13 lb [5.8'] [that is, i am in the kitchen, in the bathroom i am 5lb lighter] - i am happy around 10 st 7lb [happier 10st] so a stone and a half would make me happy. When i become pregnant i will embrace my softness and honestly wont give a s**t what i look like - skin/fat wise but whilst TTC i must not let myself go anymore into this abyss i seem to be going down. I am going to do some exercise today and go to sainsbury's and buy lots of fruit and veg. My back is starting to really play up again and i just feel old, like i am conking out...I must take control!

I have a little book called 'a barefoot doctors manual' it lists all chinese herbs, properties and usages with little pics too....Unfortunately it is not indexed so its a pain to find stuff. You can pick it up for peanuts on eBay as a modern reprint....having said that there is so much info on the web.

Dr Z could have used your last bloods as an interim guide to give you a prescription with the proviso you get them updated as soon as you are able. Obviously i suppose most opt to get them sorted with her at that extortionate rate!


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## Briss

Blythe, I agree, particularly with chinese herbs we have no idea what we are taking and how it affects our bodies, just have to hope for the best really. but after dr Z's comment and having really bad acne all along until I stopped the herbs, I am so uncomfortable going back on herbs. It took me 6 months to research coq10 and get comfortable with the dosage. I cant say I see any effect but again I am sure it is making me younger although I do get more grey hair every month, I am now so grey it's embarrassing if I do not have time to dye them. the only doc that paid any attention to me getting grey prematurely was the very first doc who got me bruised. I am actually thinking about getting back to her more and more. She might have gotten it right in the end but I wont let her touch my tummy she can do whatever she wants to the rest of my body. 

about being fit, that's the thing because I've been in this state of mind that I am about to get pregnant I felt like I have to sacrifice my body to make this happen. but obviously pregnancy is not happening. I am getting used to feeling hungry most of the time, had yogurt for dinner last night :( no chocolate or any additional sugar all day! am having black sweet coffee for breakfast with nothing :( I just need to lose 1 st to get back into my normal weight. But obviously I will still be soft until I start exercising. what do you think about cross-trainers in 2WW? I had another session with my physiotherapist and my neck/head pain has disappeared. but she said until I make changes to my posture and become more active and move around a lot I will be getting it back from time to time :( I used spend my weekends walking about shops trying and buying things, now I just stay on my sofa. I do manage to save more money that way and I do not need any additional clothes (nothing makes me look good anyway) but I guess it's time to get back on my feet and just walk. My DH's removed most of out TV channels :( very cruel way to get me up and running so I have nothing to watch anyway 

My DH on the hand took this "raising his testosterone levels" thing really seriously, our flat looks like gym, yesterday he did 4 hours on cross trainer!! and this morning went back to the gym again to carry on. he lifts weight every day and does all sort of exercises. he's beginning to look really good I have to say :) but i cant see any improvement in his sex drive though

I am thinking constantly about DHEA because I have DOR but I will raise this with my FS in May and show her my DHEA and testosterone levels hopefully she will be able to advise whether I should take it and how much and for how long. no point asking GP I think, wont be surprised if they have not hear of DHEA and that whole revolution going on out there. I am also concerned that all this publicity about DHEA might be coming from pharmaceutical companies who are sponsoring the research and they do not usually tell you anything about long term side effect and also explain how hormones work. My mum had to go on thyroid hormones for the rest of her life and it changed a lot of things that's when I realised that you cant play with hormone replacements, once your own hormones productions is blocked it might not be possible to restart it. And also with all the stress that I m constantly iunder taking stress hormone like DHEA is a bit scary. 

I am also surprised dr Z did not see it might be a problem for smb to pay that much for bloods. the treatment will be costing at least 300+260 a month. i can afford it but just about and not for long. it's the additional cost of bloods that a killer really. and obviously the first appointment was a bit off putting i just have to trust she know what she is doing


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## Blythe

Briss said:


> Blythe, I agree, particularly with chinese herbs we have no idea what we are taking and how it affects our bodies, just have to hope for the best really. but after dr Z's comment and having really bad acne all along until I stopped the herbs, I am so uncomfortable going back on herbs. It took me 6 months to research coq10 and get comfortable with the dosage. I cant say I see any effect but again I am sure it is making me younger although I do get more grey hair every month, I am now so grey it's embarrassing if I do not have time to dye them. the only doc that paid any attention to me getting grey prematurely was the very first doc who got me bruised. I am actually thinking about getting back to her more and more. She might have gotten it right in the end but I wont let her touch my tummy she can do whatever she wants to the rest of my body.
> 
> about being fit, that's the thing because I've been in this state of mind that I am about to get pregnant I felt like I have to sacrifice my body to make this happen. but obviously pregnancy is not happening. I am getting used to feeling hungry most of the time, had yogurt for dinner last night :( no chocolate or any additional sugar all day! am having black sweet coffee for breakfast with nothing :( I just need to lose 1 st to get back into my normal weight. But obviously I will still be soft until I start exercising. what do you think about cross-trainers in 2WW? I had another session with my physiotherapist and my neck/head pain has disappeared. but she said until I make changes to my posture and become more active and move around a lot I will be getting it back from time to time :( I used spend my weekends walking about shops trying and buying things, now I just stay on my sofa. I do manage to save more money that way and I do not need any additional clothes (nothing makes me look good anyway) but I guess it's time to get back on my feet and just walk. My DH's removed most of out TV channels :( very cruel way to get me up and running so I have nothing to watch anyway
> 
> My DH on the hand took this "raising his testosterone levels" thing really seriously, our flat looks like gym, yesterday he did 4 hours on cross trainer!! and this morning went back to the gym again to carry on. he lifts weight every day and does all sort of exercises. he's beginning to look really good I have to say :) but i cant see any improvement in his sex drive though
> 
> I am thinking constantly about DHEA because I have DOR but I will raise this with my FS in May and show her my DHEA and testosterone levels hopefully she will be able to advise whether I should take it and how much and for how long. no point asking GP I think, wont be surprised if they have not hear of DHEA and that whole revolution going on out there. I am also concerned that all this publicity about DHEA might be coming from pharmaceutical companies who are sponsoring the research and they do not usually tell you anything about long term side effect and also explain how hormones work. My mum had to go on thyroid hormones for the rest of her life and it changed a lot of things that's when I realised that you cant play with hormone replacements, once your own hormones productions is blocked it might not be possible to restart it. And also with all the stress that I m constantly iunder taking stress hormone like DHEA is a bit scary.
> 
> I am also surprised dr Z did not see it might be a problem for smb to pay that much for bloods. the treatment will be costing at least 300+260 a month. i can afford it but just about and not for long. it's the additional cost of bloods that a killer really. and obviously the first appointment was a bit off putting i just have to trust she know what she is doing

Hello Briss

cross trainer - 2WW - i dont think three would be anything wrong with that at all - get the blood pumping around without heavy impact we get when running. Having said that in TCM they advocate taking is easy during the 2WW....a daunting prospect when LTTTC. It was my intention to exercise today but i just cannot be bothered.

I have brought a ton of fruit and will stick to new plan tomorrow. losing weight and feeling good about my body is the one thing that will really make me feel good and it is something i can actually influence....unlike it would seem my ability to conceive :(

I brought Dr Z's book earlier today in a local bookshop so will have a look through later....i really think she had more than enough info on you inc. FSH, the fact you ovulate and have good temp patterns [in terms on prog at least] to have put together a prescription. whats the next step? do you go back when you have blood results? she should advise people of this ahead of booking i think.

where was your first doc located? is she local? it certainly sounds like she had a better idea of your pattern than the last lady....maybe go back but tell her she needs to take it easy.

my dh has also lost a ton of weight and actually looks great....he goes swimming every weekend and running....that used to be me...I was hot goddammit! i have decided to try BD every two days this cycle starting CD8 and trying to stretch it out a little longer with a bit less stress...what happens now is that i get a positive OPK and start flapping around like a chicken demanding sex and we have 3 BD over a 3/4 day period with stress and lots of pressure. we will see :wacko:

i love that your dh has really gone for it....male pride is a wonderful thing :) i look forward to hearing about his SA results and improvements. FX

went out around balham earlier...nappy valley area and it was full of bumps.....hope it will be us soon


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## Briss

I am SO hungry!! second day with no chocolate, I only had 3 boiled eggs and a small yogurt today. just made myself some steamed cabbage with carrots and it tastes divine! (tells you something about how hungry I am) I keep a bite size piece of chocolate at hand in case i get desperate. I think if i can survive on very little for a week or two my body will get used to it and i will feel better 

My DH discovered a cheaper way to gym - https://www.payasugym.com/ so I may join him next weekend, no need for annual fee, I used pay so much for virgin active. I remember burning more calories on cross trainer than any other machine. 

Dr Z's list of bloods is really huge, but I agree why would I need to do another LH or AMH test? I had two LH tests they were both fine, I only recently had AMH it was done abroad but it tells you it's low what else do you need to know? I had 5 FSH tests most high isn't it enough? after all bloods are done she will analyse it and i guess will give me a prescription and make an appointment for acu.

My firs doc was very close in whilelyes in queensway. i cant make up my mind whether to go to her, she was not cheap either. my AF is sue next sunday and i think i might go to her then. it's gonna take a couple of cycles until I get bloods done.

your BD strategy sound really healthy, anyway even with all the charting and OPK I do not think we get it 100% right so your approach is the safest. I wish my hubby had higher sex drive. i barely manage to make him BD once before positive OPK


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## Blythe

well done you....thats so good particularly for a weekend day.

that gym site is good...it has my local athletics track on there....when my back is 100% better i will start running again during the first couple of weeks of cycle. when i became pregnant with my son i did qi gong once a week...and im convinced it helped and yet total lethargy prevents me doing it now...I am feeling very disappointed with myself. I had a total slump earlier and whilst looking in the mirror found it difficult to make out where my neck was, such was the build of lard around my chin. I have written down some positive words on a piece of paper and sellotaped it to my bedroom mirror....up at the top i have 'fresh food' 'strong' 'pregnant' 'focused' etc etc and on the bottom 'dead food (chocolate)', 'weakness' 'depressed' and other stuff like that....even just saying the right words out loud seems to help sometimes.

I was checking those classic formulas in the back of Zhai's book and they all seem to be available in pill format via ebay although no doubt she tinkers with them for each patient and changes them throughout cycle and of course hers will be top quality...im sure if there is a formula there you like the look of your old doc can dish them up for you at a fraction of the price.


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## Briss

I am really pleased with myself so far, had carrot juice for dinner :( but I feel hungry every minute, that's so tiring. I also did a bit of exercise (just lifting my legs with some weight on them). it'll get really tricky next week when I will be away, it's always hard to keep to your diet when abroad you never know what you can eat. 

my local gym is 6 pounds per visit which is great i think.

Dr Z actually said the herbal formula is not going to change depending on where I am in my cycle, she will only change it once she sees my condition changes. It's a bit surprising that her formulas are so wide spread. maybe they are quite basic chinese formulas? 

as soon as I said that my acne cleared I got a really nasty one on my chin, although it's not as bad as what i had before

I like your idea with positive words!


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## shiseru

Briss, interesting on your appt with Dr Z. The thing she said does make sense. Sometimes, my TCM will comment me or my DH of being too heaty and she will give us some herbs to rid of it. Apparently excessive heat is no good for TTC, I never why though i should do so when I visit her the next round.

Good job on your dieting, with a bit of exercising, you are sure to shed off some pounds! You don't need a lot of dieting really. I walked (since i was pregnant) and control my diet and I lost weight so it worked. When I was on low GI diet, I eat 5 x per day but all in small portion. I was never satisfied but it wouldn't starved me either but that was the key to losing weight!

Blythe, greata to know you started the diet plan too! I am sure you drop a size after a month if you keep this up! And ohh you might want to keep all chocolate in the drawer or you DH can hide them somewhere you can't find ! :)

I had a scan on Sat, Folliclie size grown 2mm from 12.5mm to 14.5mm. Lining is only 7mm. OPK is negative. so I was told to go back for a scan on tomorrow CD12. So i BD on Sat night, and my BBT rise the next morning which is a post O temp (WTF)! Did I ovulate on small wimpy egg? So I emailed the doctor and told her about it. This morning my gynae emailed me saying I should go for a scan today, but damnit I am in office already!

Guess what? My BBT had a huge drop this morning. My OPK shows negative just like last night but the second line is visible though just not as dark as the control line. Hopefully Ovulation is nearing and I didn't miss my surge!

Argh I have this lousy feeling that this cycle is gonna be a bust... so annoying!


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## Blythe

Shiseru - i often get a temp spike (i got one today it is post o temp but i know i have not ovulated) pre ovulation so try not to worry too much..let us know how your scan goes today.


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## Blythe

Briss said:


> I am really pleased with myself so far, had carrot juice for dinner :( but I feel hungry every minute, that's so tiring. I also did a bit of exercise (just lifting my legs with some weight on them). it'll get really tricky next week when I will be away, it's always hard to keep to your diet when abroad you never know what you can eat.
> 
> my local gym is 6 pounds per visit which is great i think.
> 
> Dr Z actually said the herbal formula is not going to change depending on where I am in my cycle, she will only change it once she sees my condition changes. It's a bit surprising that her formulas are so wide spread. maybe they are quite basic chinese formulas?
> 
> as soon as I said that my acne cleared I got a really nasty one on my chin, although it's not as bad as what i had before
> 
> 
> I like your idea with positive words!



Dr Z has listed a bunch of classic chinese herbal formulas in the back of her book...for example 


*Xue Fu Zhu Yu Tang*
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Xue-Fu-Z...87?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_15&hash=item25792ddf5b

*xiao yao tang*
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Anxiety-...AlternativeTherapies&var=&hash=item4171e51b9a

this really is a classic one - i used to take these years ago - they are commonly referred to as happy pills - i cannot recall if they worked or not but remember these being pointed at alot in chinese herbal clinics as a pick me up....

*Liu wei di huang tang*
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/3x-Liu-W...ural_AlternativeTherapies&hash=item20c2f8c6cc

*Tiao Jing Tang*
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Tiao-Jin...ural_AlternativeTherapies&hash=item4ac3376c80

*You Gui Wan*
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/5-Pks-Yo...ural_AlternativeTherapies&hash=item4ac2a27b55

and so on......I suppose most docs start with a basic formula and add/subtract other herbs based on individual....


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## Briss

Shiseru, temp spikes before O are apparently sign of heat according to Dr Z

Blythe, I guess Dr Z did not want to share her secrets in the book and just listed these classic Chinese herbal formulas. I think Lewis' book has more info on herbs anyway but unfortunately it's not the herbs that are easy to find over here. My previous doc was giving me herbs which (at least half) I can find in Dr Z's book but not in Lewis' book.

FF is paying with my temp and moved my o back to CD12 for no apparent reason, how annoying. Still hungry&#8230; decided to take the stairs to my office (7th floor) every day. actually was out of breath when I got up here. just discovered that at my hotel I will get complementary access to gym and sauna, definitely taking my swim suit and trainers then


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## alison29

I am so proud of your will power briss...I will think of you not eating the bad stuff next time a craving takes hold. Mind over matter right? I too have cut the creamer out of coffee i had no idea how many extra calories i was consuming with it everyday. 
HI Shiseru and Blythe...


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## shiseru

Hiya ladies!

I just came back from the scan, follicle size is 17.5mm, lining is 11.5 (perfect). I was told to get the HCG trigger tonight and IUI on Thursday, hopefully I don't ovulate before then since I am starting to get positive on the OPK!

Wonder if i can still do aerobics and yoga after the IUI?


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## Blythe

Hi alison:flower:

Shiseru - i would be inclined to give aerobics a miss..hope you hold off ovulating until thurs. can you BD before then or do they say no?


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## alison29

aerobics no yoga yes. Sounds promising though..


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## Briss

Shiseru - i agree with Blythe and Alison, I would not do aerobics around IUI and instead take it easy for a few days. 

my willpower is being challenged every minute with all this complementary chocolate but I am pleased to report I am still on track, not even sugar in my tea! I had some breakfast/lunch type of meal during the flight (obviously skipped the desert) and now trying with all my might to ignore all the goodies they placed in my hotel room. I bought myself kefir (local dairy product which is supposed to be great for fixing digestive system and low on calories) and I drink it from time to time when I feel I cant deal with hunger anymore. it's not like I am starving myself I do eat but I am never satisfied&#8230;

it's only been 3 days, do not know how much longer I can hold on, it's just hard being constantly hungry and unsatisfied. but I guess I reached my limit, I literally have nothing I can wear any more, I either have to buy myself a whole new wardrobe 2 sizes (at least) up or lose weight. It's also annoying that most of my weight is around my tummy so I feel it every second it's so uncomfortable. but the main goal is to try to live without sugar. I was eating way too much of this stuff and I am sure it has some affect on fertility. Unfortunately after 3 days there is no visible difference, I would need to try and stick to it for at least a month to see any result.


----------



## MalaMae

Hi girls! Missed you!
Read all of your posts. I don't have much to report.
Have been dealing with family issues and in 1.5 week lost 6.6 lb (eating only 1 per day, I lost my appetite).
I'm not doing any temping, OPKs, saliva etc. Absolutely nothing! I have no idea when I will ovulate or ovulated :)) we actually finally enjoy random BD :) and it feels great!
We are not thinking of IUI or IVF at all. I'm letting go and I feel so much more better :)


----------



## Briss

Blythe said:


> Briss said:
> 
> 
> I am really pleased with myself so far, had carrot juice for dinner :( but I feel hungry every minute, that's so tiring. I also did a bit of exercise (just lifting my legs with some weight on them). it'll get really tricky next week when I will be away, it's always hard to keep to your diet when abroad you never know what you can eat.
> 
> my local gym is 6 pounds per visit which is great i think.
> 
> Dr Z actually said the herbal formula is not going to change depending on where I am in my cycle, she will only change it once she sees my condition changes. It's a bit surprising that her formulas are so wide spread. maybe they are quite basic chinese formulas?
> 
> as soon as I said that my acne cleared I got a really nasty one on my chin, although it's not as bad as what i had before
> 
> 
> I like your idea with positive words!
> 
> 
> 
> Dr Z has listed a bunch of classic chinese herbal formulas in the back of her book...for example
> 
> 
> *Xue Fu Zhu Yu Tang*
> https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Xue-Fu-Z...87?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_15&hash=item25792ddf5b
> 
> *xiao yao tang*
> https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Anxiety-...AlternativeTherapies&var=&hash=item4171e51b9a
> 
> this really is a classic one - i used to take these years ago - they are commonly referred to as happy pills - i cannot recall if they worked or not but remember these being pointed at alot in chinese herbal clinics as a pick me up....
> 
> *Liu wei di huang tang*
> https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/3x-Liu-W...ural_AlternativeTherapies&hash=item20c2f8c6cc
> 
> *Tiao Jing Tang*
> https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Tiao-Jin...ural_AlternativeTherapies&hash=item4ac3376c80
> 
> *You Gui Wan*
> https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/5-Pks-Yo...ural_AlternativeTherapies&hash=item4ac2a27b55
> 
> and so on......I suppose most docs start with a basic formula and add/subtract other herbs based on individual....Click to expand...


I've been looking at Liu wei di huang tang formula and actually remembered that dr Z was asking about my low back pain but she draw a distinction (or it might be how I interpreted it) between having this pain before or during AF or if this is spine related issue (as in my case). I always ticked myself as low back pain in Chinese questionnaires but apparently this is not the right kind of low back pain. 

I was taking Tiao Jing Tang and I did not like it because I suspect it made me ovulate early and the two cycle I was on it were short 24 days


----------



## Briss

MalaMae said:


> Hi girls! Missed you!
> Read all of your posts. I don't have much to report.
> Have been dealing with family issues and in 1.5 week lost 6.6 lb (eating only 1 per day, I lost my appetite).
> I'm not doing any temping, OPKs, saliva etc. Absolutely nothing! I have no idea when I will ovulate or ovulated :)) we actually finally enjoy random BD :) and it feels great!
> We are not thinking of IUI or IVF at all. I'm letting go and I feel so much more better :)

MalaMae, great to see you here, you have been missed! I think this is very brave of you to just let go, I am so hoping this will do the trick


----------



## Blythe

Briss said:


> Blythe said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Briss said:
> 
> 
> I am really pleased with myself so far, had carrot juice for dinner :( but I feel hungry every minute, that's so tiring. I also did a bit of exercise (just lifting my legs with some weight on them). it'll get really tricky next week when I will be away, it's always hard to keep to your diet when abroad you never know what you can eat.
> 
> my local gym is 6 pounds per visit which is great i think.
> 
> Dr Z actually said the herbal formula is not going to change depending on where I am in my cycle, she will only change it once she sees my condition changes. It's a bit surprising that her formulas are so wide spread. maybe they are quite basic chinese formulas?
> 
> as soon as I said that my acne cleared I got a really nasty one on my chin, although it's not as bad as what i had before
> 
> 
> I like your idea with positive words!
> 
> 
> 
> Dr Z has listed a bunch of classic chinese herbal formulas in the back of her book...for example
> 
> 
> *Xue Fu Zhu Yu Tang*
> https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Xue-Fu-Z...87?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_15&hash=item25792ddf5b
> 
> *xiao yao tang*
> https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Anxiety-...AlternativeTherapies&var=&hash=item4171e51b9a
> 
> this really is a classic one - i used to take these years ago - they are commonly referred to as happy pills - i cannot recall if they worked or not but remember these being pointed at alot in chinese herbal clinics as a pick me up....
> 
> *Liu wei di huang tang*
> https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/3x-Liu-W...ural_AlternativeTherapies&hash=item20c2f8c6cc
> 
> *Tiao Jing Tang*
> https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Tiao-Jin...ural_AlternativeTherapies&hash=item4ac3376c80
> 
> *You Gui Wan*
> https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/5-Pks-Yo...ural_AlternativeTherapies&hash=item4ac2a27b55
> 
> and so on......I suppose most docs start with a basic formula and add/subtract other herbs based on individual....Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I've been looking at Liu wei di huang tang formula and actually remembered that dr Z was asking about my low back pain but she draw a distinction (or it might be how I interpreted it) between having this pain before or during AF or if this is spine related issue (as in my case). I always ticked myself as low back pain in Chinese questionnaires but apparently this is not the right kind of low back pain.
> 
> I was taking Tiao Jing Tang and I did not like it because I suspect it made me ovulate early and the two cycle I was on it were short 24 daysClick to expand...


yes interesting....i have lower back pain and always thought it was a classic sign of kidney yang deficiency. I have been taking little pills - 'nuan gong yun si wan' and i nearly have a positive OPK. im not sure if it is them or not but i wouldn't be surprised if i have ovulated by CD10...i hope it stretches out a bit as i feel if i ovulate before CD10 i will have little chance. 

The DHEA has really kicked in since i upped my dosage to 50mg and i have what seems like hundreds of acne bumps all over my forehead and big blistering spots on my chin. I will see how this week goes in terms of when i ovulate then may reduce to 25mg. 

im desperately trying to keep positive but im 41 in 2 weeks and im struggling today....does not help that work is piling up!

Briss - i kept meaning to say that i was sorry to read that your deal did not go through :( Are you still in the UK or Europe?

Malamae - hello darling! I simply cannot imagine BDing for fun anymore which tells me that i have been doing this for far too long. my age really is putting pressure on me...if i was younger i would definitely take a step back from my current self inflicted madness. You sound good and i think you have done the right thing taking a more relaxed approach to it all.....


----------



## Blythe

Briss - ignore my question re travelling - i see you are abroad now. I just checked previous post :wacko:


----------



## Briss

you are only CD8, it is too early. I hope not. I used to get almost positive for 3-4 days before definitely positive so hopefully this will stretch. May be it's not 'nuan gong yun si wan' messing things up but DHEA? I also have a really big one on my chin but I am not complaining, just recently I had quite a few all over my face so I am just relived there is some improvement 

Blythe, I can totally relate and I cant stand birthdays anymore it's just too stressful, from time to time I get this reminders (like people who started TTC later than me are coming back from maternity or getting pregnant with their second child) that I've been TTC for ages and time is running out. I was not 35 when we started TTC, how did it come to this? I am scared to think how old I am going to be when I start TTC N2&#8230; If I am lucky and have a child I will have to cut his breastfeeding time short so I could start TTC N2, this is so depressing because I always thought breastfeeding was very important to create a good foundation for strong immune system. I am taking some comfort in thinking that I am doing all I can and if all fails I will go for IVF. 

I am disappointed the deal did not go through but deep down to be honest I could not care less, I am abroad on yet another deal that is going to keep me pretty stressed for the next month. that's my life, instead of bringing up a child I do deals&#8230; how pointless. on the positive side, I can stay at expensive hotels (without paying) and order room service. Just got myself (nothing exotic) some veg soup but it came with most inviting looking white bread, so I am contemplating whether I should go for it or not


----------



## Blythe

Did you eat the white bread?


----------



## shiseru

Thanks ladies, I shall skip my aerobic tomorrow then, but will go for my yoga on Friday. 

Briss, as you just started dieting, you will feel hungry all the time for the first few days but it will get better because your sugar level is down and your appetite becomes smaller! Keep it up! And you can still conceive when breastfeeding! I BF mine for 6 months but ended up BF-ing for almost a year.

MalaMae, what a great relaxing month for you. Hopefully your family issue is not stressing you out. Trying to conceive is an emotional roller coaster with many highs and lows, especially if it doesn't happen right away. I think it's a good idea to just let go a little sometimes!

Blythe, your little acne bumps is likely to be the side effect of taking DHEA? That's a really nice pre-O BBT!

alison29, how are you progressing?

Well the hospital called me yesterday because I told them I had a positive on the CD11 evening though it was showing neg on CD12 morning. I was asked to go back and test my LH surge to confirm and it was 12.5IU/L. (this number is in the middle of nowhere really) but they said it is beginning to surge and I need to go back for a HCG trigger that night followed by IUI the next morning. I had done the IUI today, DH sperm count was perfect with great numbers and motility (didn't report the morph though which was really pathetic at 1% in the previous test report but hey it just takes 1 huh)!

I am surprised my O day is CD13-14 this cycle, looks like Femara works better for older women. The follclie has been growing steadily at 1mm per day. When I was on clomid, I had multiple big follclies between 18mm-24mm on CD10! I dunno but my TCM said not ideal for eggs to grow this big in a short time because usually they are empty?

Here comes the dreadful 2ww... I am gonna keep myself busy and watch a few comedies!


----------



## summer2011

Any of your practitioners use acu laser therapy? I think it's relatively new but there is some evidence that claims it helps with implantation. And for what it's worth... I did 2 sessions this month after my first iui, and what do you know.... :bfp:


----------



## Blythe

shiseru said:


> Thanks ladies, I shall skip my aerobic tomorrow then, but will go for my yoga on Friday.
> 
> Briss, as you just started dieting, you will feel hungry all the time for the first few days but it will get better because your sugar level is down and your appetite becomes smaller! Keep it up! And you can still conceive when breastfeeding! I BF mine for 6 months but ended up BF-ing for almost a year.
> 
> MalaMae, what a great relaxing month for you. Hopefully your family issue is not stressing you out. Trying to conceive is an emotional roller coaster with many highs and lows, especially if it doesn't happen right away. I think it's a good idea to just let go a little sometimes!
> 
> Blythe, your little acne bumps is likely to be the side effect of taking DHEA? That's a really nice pre-O BBT!
> 
> alison29, how are you progressing?
> 
> Well the hospital called me yesterday because I told them I had a positive on the CD11 evening though it was showing neg on CD12 morning. I was asked to go back and test my LH surge to confirm and it was 12.5IU/L. (this number is in the middle of nowhere really) but they said it is beginning to surge and I need to go back for a HCG trigger that night followed by IUI the next morning. I had done the IUI today, DH sperm count was perfect with great numbers and motility (didn't report the morph though which was really pathetic at 1% in the previous test report but hey it just takes 1 huh)!
> 
> I am surprised my O day is CD13-14 this cycle, looks like Femara works better for older women. The follclie has been growing steadily at 1mm per day. When I was on clomid, I had multiple big follclies between 18mm-24mm on CD10! I dunno but my TCM said not ideal for eggs to grow this big in a short time because usually they are empty?
> 
> Here comes the dreadful 2ww... I am gonna keep myself busy and watch a few comedies!


Shiseru - that is interesting about the almost positive you had earlier in week. Last night I got an almost +opk and this morning it has faded slightly. I think I get this a lot....and find myself gearing up for ovulation just after AF has finished then it subsides and comes back around CD 11....as if it wasn't confusing and stressful enough!! 

Wonderful news re the sperm :) I don't mind the beginning if the 2ww....I can dream I'm pregnant....it's the last few days I cannot bear :( although I have everything crossed this is your month :flower:


----------



## Briss

Blythe said:


> Did you eat the white bread?

I did not eat the white bread :( today I had proper breakfast and proper lunch but no chocolate and no sugar of any kind (it was really difficult) and today I am 1 kg heavier than yesterday


----------



## alison29

Shiseru To answer your question real quick before i catchup reading..I am in tww. I dunno if i really nailed this month got one bd in a couple of days before O...prob to late but it is something. I am just keeping on the pregnitude which make me gassy but has to be doing some good. So i am about 7dpo. 

I really need to nail the next few months to take advantage of whatever benefits of lap and tube cleaning provided.

I too have been here long enough that a lot of others are in their 2nd pregnancy since i have been here. Its ridiculous and sad, but it's the path I am on for some reason too. I just saw another lady post.


----------



## alison29

Briss said:


> Blythe said:
> 
> 
> Did you eat the white bread?
> 
> I did not eat the white bread :( today I had proper breakfast and proper lunch but no chocolate and no sugar of any kind (it was really difficult) and today I am 1 kg heavier than yesterdayClick to expand...

doesn't that just piss you off. It makes me so mad when i am careful and then GAIN. Last night had inlaws in ate like it was christmas, lol . I thought f it as i spooned cookies in cream ice cream into my mouth (which is double bad because dairy kills me).


----------



## alison29

Sounds really promising shiseru..Femara also gives you a beautiful lining fingers crossed!


----------



## Briss

shiseru, good luck with IUI, fantastic news on the sperm, fingers crossed!

Summer, congratulations!! happy and healthy 9 months. what is laser therapy?

I'm much happier today because I had 3 meals (not over eating and still nothing sweet, no snacking apart from fruit, drank a lot of water) and do not feel hungry but obviously disappointed to see weight gain. still, 5 days off chocolate! I am hoping my hormones will come down without constant sugar rush. unfortunately seems like acne is back


----------



## smurfy

shiseru said:


> Thanks ladies, I shall skip my aerobic tomorrow then, but will go for my yoga on Friday.
> 
> Briss, as you just started dieting, you will feel hungry all the time for the first few days but it will get better because your sugar level is down and your appetite becomes smaller! Keep it up! And you can still conceive when breastfeeding! I BF mine for 6 months but ended up BF-ing for almost a year.
> 
> MalaMae, what a great relaxing month for you. Hopefully your family issue is not stressing you out. Trying to conceive is an emotional roller coaster with many highs and lows, especially if it doesn't happen right away. I think it's a good idea to just let go a little sometimes!
> 
> Blythe, your little acne bumps is likely to be the side effect of taking DHEA? That's a really nice pre-O BBT!
> 
> alison29, how are you progressing?
> 
> Well the hospital called me yesterday because I told them I had a positive on the CD11 evening though it was showing neg on CD12 morning. I was asked to go back and test my LH surge to confirm and it was 12.5IU/L. (this number is in the middle of nowhere really) but they said it is beginning to surge and I need to go back for a HCG trigger that night followed by IUI the next morning. I had done the IUI today, DH sperm count was perfect with great numbers and motility (didn't report the morph though which was really pathetic at 1% in the previous test report but hey it just takes 1 huh)!
> 
> I am surprised my O day is CD13-14 this cycle, looks like Femara works better for older women. The follclie has been growing steadily at 1mm per day. When I was on clomid, I had multiple big follclies between 18mm-24mm on CD10! I dunno but my TCM said not ideal for eggs to grow this big in a short time because usually they are empty?
> 
> Here comes the dreadful 2ww... I am gonna keep myself busy and watch a few comedies!

sounds positive, can i ask how long DH did not have intercourse before his deposit (so to speak) :) some say 2 days some say more thanks


----------



## alison29

I think the clinic will tell you to have your husband "clean out the old junk" a certain number of days before iui so they don't want a huge number of days abstinence. I am sure Shiseru will post back info.

Briss maybe it is just water weight? I think we do fluctuate depending on the time of day and such with the weight. I have been drinking a ton of water too! Not so great with the sugar though. I have at least been buying bakery fresh whole grain bread. I told my daughter she may not have the white stuff because it is poison...I can just imagine her spouting that off to her friends " you are eating poison my mom says".. I think it will stick in their brains at least. 


Yep, i agree the dhea caused my dh to be a hormonal maniac and acne. He does't get that anymore. When i tried using natural progesterone cream I broke out like mad.


----------



## shiseru

smurfy, doctor did not say anything, but previously my DH abstained for 3 days and count was good, so we did the same this round, and it did turn out great too.

Briss yes I suspect it could be water retention. Lessen your intake of salt and salty foods and exercise often to release excess body fluid and increase circulation, also sleep with your feet elevated higher than your heart. 

Alison, you are 8-9 DPO? Are you gonna test soon? finger cross for ya!

I had such bad tummy ache last night I thought it was infection from the IUI! I was so bloated the whole of yesterday and cramp during the night. I took some med for cramp and I was fine this morning. FF gave me the CH on day 12, which I think it will change to CD13 when I add in few more temps.


----------



## Briss

Finally I am back, feel totally exhausted after this trip, for some reason could not get any sleep all week, probably time difference affected me. I was not taking any vitamins either just could not bother with all that. FF is still refusing to move my O to CD 13. Day 7 for me &#8211; still no chocolate! I just need to lose 7 kg and I will be myself again. and also tone up my legs and arms


----------



## Blythe

I had terrible insomnia prior to finding out I was pregnant. I was also working away from home and did not sleep for a week. Your chart looks good and its longer than usual. Have you had tell take signs AF is on way? Are your boobs sore? Questions questions!!


----------



## Briss

my boobs are not sore, I do have some all too well familiar twinges&#8230; my LH looks slightly more optimistic than it should because I think I Oed later that it says. Trying to delegate all my work to juniors and free this weekend, I simply cant go on like this I really need a break

I did eat some honey last night and today but that (together with dry fruit) are the only sweet stuff I let myself have. morning was very hard without any chocolate to cheer me up but overall I am feeling less miserable today. still totally exhausted from the trip. I went for Physio and nearly fell asleep &#8211; so relaxing! I would definitely swap acu for physio but it's even more expensive.

Got a letter from Rd Z where I hoped she was going to set out her conclusions and advice but instead it was just a summary of my form &#8211; how helpful is this?


----------



## Blythe

Not very helpful at all. Are you still thinking of going back to your First Acu doc soon? A summary of what she considered your deficiencies would have been much more meaningful. 

I really hope you have a break from work soon briss.... It's too much when you are TTC. Does your work generally involve these long hours? Sorry if I sound daft but I haven't a clue about a lawyers work. I did my first degree in law but ended up doing research work on the end (history not law). 

Well done on all the good work with your food intake. I am inspired to do the same. My DH said my stomach looks like a flat tyre and its quite true.


----------



## Briss

I do not know yet if I am going back to my First Acu doc, cant make up my mind. to be honest I am slightly scared of herbs. I will ask Dr Z for a summary of my deficiencies. Let's see how she will respond. 

My work does generally involve long hours but usually I manage to avoid it (obviously by sacrificing the quality). everyone around me is so driven that you cant just stand still even for a while. This time it's just too much, I am totally snowed under. When I was choosing my profession I never considered myself as a mother and that I may have other priorities so I chose wrong I suppose from that perspective. 

I am very pleased with myself so far re chocolate but unfortunately I just do not see any difference in my weight. I've been very good the entire week &#8211; I want my reward! I decided to weigh myself every morning so I could see if there is any progress because otherwise my weight is so random during the day I cant see if I am losing or putting on more weight 

I see you got your positive OKP today, and BD every other day should be perfect, fingers crossed


----------



## alison29

Shiseru you are right I am prob 8-9 dpo my temp dropped this morning a bit went from days of 98.1-98.3 to 97.8 I was thinking maybe it's implantation dip...hope springs eternal i guess in my deranged lil mind. I just probably slept better is all BUT yes i will test this weekend. I will post what i get.

Briss like you needed a summary of what you wrote to them, very disappointing. It sounds like you maybe getting through the chocolate withdrawal slumps..way to go.


----------



## Blythe

I hear you re the herbs. I have to say though i was thinking about the Black Cohosh i took last month and i had the best period i have had in well over a year after it...that was on a low dose. Anyhow, i really think it helped me build up a great lining. If i dont get a BFP i have the Black Cohosh 40g pills i ordered before so i will be taking them.

I will have another month on DHEA but i can already see that my hair is thinning out...i cannot be spotty and bald...:(

Alison - everything crossed for the weekend....we must always have hope:flower:


----------



## Blythe

Just reading through dr z book. On p. 116 she is talking about length of time for treatments to be effective. She says it takes on average 9-12 months to get a bfp. That would be easily over 7k for a years treatment. She seems talk more of excesses than deficiencies.


----------



## Blythe

summer2011 said:


> Any of your practitioners use acu laser therapy? I think it's relatively new but there is some evidence that claims it helps with implantation. And for what it's worth... I did 2 sessions this month after my first iui, and what do you know.... :bfp:

Summer - i have just seen your sig....Im so sorry that you have a suspected ectopic. I hope you are ok. :hugs:


----------



## Blythe

Shiseru - you have a nice big climb in temps :).... I see you are taking progesterone too. Are you taking pessaries or cream?


----------



## Briss

Blythe, looks like you are ovulating today I'd through in one more BD session today just for good measure 

Summer - I'm very sorry about suspected ectopic, please please please before letting them do anything drastic ask for another pregnancy hormone blood test to make sure they are not making a mistake. I am sorry to be so negative but this happened to one of the ladies here she almost lost her baby and a tube because they could not find the sack on the scan - it was there all the time they just could not see it and only insisting on repeating the blood test, which showed levels steadily increasing which is not typical for ectopic, prevented the tragedy.


----------



## Blythe

Briss - great to see you have a nice long luteal phase. Do you think you ovulated the day before FF shows you as ovulating?

It seems you cycles look better temp wise since you finished the acu and herbs! I will interested to see what my temps look like this month seeing as i no longer take the powdered herbs 2 x per day. I am taking the mini tablets but they are not so powerful.

my OPK this morning was much darker than the line i had last night so i guess ,my LH surge is peaking today....Its all feeling a bit tender in the ovaries area so i expect to ovulate tonight or tomorrow. DH was out last night drinking so hope his S are still up to the job.


----------



## Briss

Blythe, this is my best cycle length and temp wise since last summer... maybe it's all down to 4 months of acu and herbs, maybe quite the opposite as soon as I stopped acu and herbs my cycle finally started to recover. hard to say. I think I O Cd13 so My LH is within my normal average (shorted than what FF shows at the moment, I have no idea FF would not move my O date back to CD13)

I think that the sperm that got in yesterday pm has the best shot at it, hopefully they are all there rested after the journey and anxiously waiting for the egg ready to attack :) still I think if you can get more troops in (even tipsy ones) it'll give you more chances. 

While I was away my DH had some beer I could just tell and he did not deny, so upsetting. also after visiting Dr Z he is completely refusing any herb pills (I was able to get them down his throat before, not regularly but 3-4 time a week) and he is skipping vitamins more often... I wish I did not ask him to come with me


----------



## Briss

no luck for me this cycle, temp dropped and i started spotting, AF will come today as scheduled. have to say I was raising my hopes up this cycle, temp looked very promising and I did not have my usual AF symptom like cramping, usually 1-2 days before AF I'd have this strong feeling like AF can show up any minute now, there was nothing like that. But I did get my sex drive back and had some familiar twinges. I also had a dream the night before the temp drop that I gave birth to a boy... :( I was trying to manage my expectations and not raise my hope up too much but probably unconsciously I did hence the dream. also FF did not help by putting my O early giving me longer LH which also kind of raised my hopes so i had to override it to stop myself dreaming.

My chinese horoscope said I can expect a child in the year of the snake - not gonna happen I think that was the last month I could've got pregnant so I could give birth in that year... 

Decided to take EPO this cycle and will go to Gym from CD 4-5, in over a week I only had 3 spoons of sugar in my coffee yesterday and today - my only bad sugar! and was eating much less than usual but there is no change in my weight. I weigh myself every morning and it fluctuates but overall it's the same :( I do not understand it but definitely need to add some proper exercise.


----------



## shiseru

Summer, I am sorry to hear about the etopic, but yes make sure the doctor double check to confirm!

Briss, after my birth i went back to exercise, though I slim down but my weight has increased because the fat turns into muscle. However when I wear my pants I know I did slim down.

Blythe, looks like you O on CD12? the BD timing looks perfect! I was told to take the progesterone, initially they gave me by oral but I requested the pessaries for insert.


Alison, a dip on 8-9DPO is a good sign, hope you get to see the BFP this weekend.

I had bad gas pain after the IUI. Stomach bloated and gassy. Very uncomfortable! Yes even my TCM commented the rise and post O temp is beautiful. Of course I pray it stays that way for the next 9 months haha! :D


----------



## Briss

Shiseru, your temp looks great, fingers crossed it'll stay that way

Did aerobics yesterday just before AF showed up, still no weight loss this morning. my chocolate cravings are so bad this morning I can hardly bear it. Looks like by eating less and depraving myself of chocolate I can only manage to keep myself from putting on weight but not enough to lose anything. I should start measuring myself but so far my clothes does not feel any different, still rather tight&#8230;


----------



## Blythe

Briss :hugs::hugs: for stupid AF. Keep on going and doing all the good stuff you are doing. It will happen. Well done for staying away from choc. I have not managed the same although this nice weather is making me increasingly self conscious about revealing my body. 

I am currently in st George's as my son came in with a rash that would not go He is being kept in for a couple of days on a drip and close monitoring to ensure it is it meningitis so il be staying with him.


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## Briss

Blythe, I am very sorry about your son, hopefully it's nothing serious and he will get better soon. :hugs:


----------



## Briss

Recently, two well known celebrities publicised their fertility issues and inability to get pregnant in the news. It is becoming increasingly more common for women to start a family in their late 30s to mid 40s. Between the ages of 35 to 45, there is a ten year period called peri-menopause, during which a woman's egg quality and egg production go into decline. This does not mean that you can't get pregnant during this time, but many women may struggle to conceive or they simply need some help.

With the help of prominent women publically sharing their fertility stories in the media, the stigma attached to fertility issues isn't as strong as it once was. These women are helping to eliminate "infertility shame" and are offering support to other women struggling to conceive. 

Skating superstar Jayne Torvill, 55, confided about her struggles to conceive and lack of success with IVF on Piers Morgan's Life Stories. She put her skating career first and waited until her 40s before trying to start a family. Desperate for a baby and left devastated after an ectopic pregnancy and failed IVF, she finally decided to adopt. Whilst it happened a number of years ago, Jayne, today would have benefited from not just undergoing IVF, but also treatment to improve the health of the abdominal environment for implantation and a healthy pregnancy, which not IVF alone could succeed.

Actress and former Celebrity MasterChef winner Lisa Faulkner, 41, also revealed to the media that going through four rounds of failed IVF costing £35,000, wiped out her entire life savings and left her a "walking mess of hormones" from the daily injections. In 2008, she and her partner adopted daughter Billie when she was 15 months old. Lisa was desperate for a baby for many years and she feels very blessed to have Billie, who is now six. 

Sadly Lisa's story is very common. IVF can only collect quality eggs you can produce; IVF cannot improve the quality of the eggs. Using Clexane or a medication for natural killer cells, which is thought to be able to improve the chances of implantation, is not enough. The woman needs more than just a mechanical measure or treatment in order to restore healthy blood circulation in the abdomen. Couples keep trying one cycle after another of IVF and it can be a really hard and long journey for their success to having a baby. 

Although these women both had ectopic pregnancies in their 40s, that does not mean that you can't have a healthy pregnancy in your 40s or following an ectopic pregnancy. Both of these women should have been able to conceive after their ectopic pregnancies if they had the right support at the time. In many cases, ectopic pregnancies are related to blood stasis, which prevents normal blood flow to the reproductive system, especially the uterus. At The Zhai Clinic, this condition is treated through acupuncture, herbal medications and lifestyle and diet modifications. Engaging in regular exercise to promote good blood circulation and avoiding cold, raw foods and chilled/iced drinks as they constrict blood circulation will also help. The Zhai Clinic has successfully treated many women in their 40s. In fact, 33% of all the pregnancies at The Zhai Clinic are achieved by women between the ages of 40 to 43.  A figure which is not much less than pregnancies for women below 35 years of age. 

Today, many women start trying for a family later in their lives. Waiting until you are ready and prepared to have a baby and finding the right person in your life is more important than your age. Make sure you are living a healthy lifestyle whilst trying to get pregnant. This includes eating a balanced diet and engaging in regular, moderate exercise. Taking folic acid and other supplements (Zhai Premium Fertility Products £39.98 ) is also important to get your body in the optimal shape to conceive. Traditional Chinese Medicine can help improve the egg and sperm quality and promote a healthy uterus environment for women to improve the implantation, and has proved to be more successful than any other forms of fertility treatment. Our Pregnancy Programme at The Zhai Clinic aims to help women and men in preparation to conceive, whether naturally or combined with assisted fertility treatment; and has proved highly successful. Do not rush to start IVF if you are not ready, as it will take you longer to conceive.


----------



## Briss

Dr Zhai sent me a short additional summary saying that I have liver qi stagnation which also causes raised heat. In relation to this, my ovary function is effected and as a result, my FSH is elevated and my cycles are slightly shorter than normal. Our initial treatment intends to soothe the liver qi and reduce heat. Once the initial goal has been achieved, we will see whether we need to improve other part of my internal system. Please avoid spicy food such as curry and chilli, include plenty of fruit and vegetables in your diet and no alcohol.

That's quite good I am just still not clear why she needs all these blood test to begin the treatment while she seems to know what's wrong and how to treat it


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## Blythe

Briss said:


> Dr Zhai sent me a short additional summary saying that I have liver qi stagnation which also causes raised heat. In relation to this, my ovary function is effected and as a result, my FSH is elevated and my cycles are slightly shorter than normal. Our initial treatment intends to soothe the liver qi and reduce heat. Once the initial goal has been achieved, we will see whether we need to improve other part of my internal system. Please avoid spicy food such as curry and chilli, include plenty of fruit and vegetables in your diet and no alcohol.
> 
> That's quite good I am just still not clear why she needs all these blood test to begin the treatment while she seems to know what's wrong and how to treat it


https://www.eastmountain.ca/10liverqi.pdf

There is lots you can do yourself for liver qi stagnation inc. above and might be worth seeing which points you can press yourself. I'm glad she provided more info on how she would treat you.


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## Briss

surprisingly I must avoid raw vegetable juices and nuts! these are good things, are they not? here goes my juicing and snaking on nuts to help with chocolate cravings ...


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## alison29

I am sorry about your son Blythe will be thinking of you. That is nerve wracking not know what is causing symptoms. How old is your son?

Briss sorry bout AF. Its good to have hope though without it we would give up. It's going to happen for you, I know it just keep on trying diff things it will pay off.

AFM I didn't test or temp this morning. I will let you know what comes of tomorrow morn just not feeling much different then usual though and didn't want to waste a HPT. Woke up really late today can't wait to see what the temp is tomorrow.


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## alison29

I did not know nuts and veg juice were bad for liver stag. I have been diagnosed with that in the past. I take milk thistle to help clean the liver.


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## alison29

Now i remember the lady i saw said if i had say a salad it would help to eat something hot like soup or tea to help digest the raw vegtetables. She said cooked vegs were better for me to eat with liver stagnation.


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## shiseru

Blythe, sorry to hear about your son, i hope he recovers soon.

Briss, I would think chocolate is fine? Dark chocolate especially! Not white or milk chocolate though! https://www.fitday.com/fitness-arti...ng/6-health-benefits-of-dark-chocolate.html#b

Dark chocolate helps to ease fatigue too! I take some chocolate everyday without failed (non-sugar type) :D

Uh i didn't know raw vegetable juices and nuts are bad for liver stag too. I thought they were good (fibre and protein?) Well I don't take veg juices but I do take almond nuts. Without it, i am sure I will go for chips! :p

Alison, I am curious about your temp! Has it been steady this cycle? Any symptoms?


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## Blythe

alison29 said:


> I am sorry about your son Blythe will be thinking of you. That is nerve wracking not know what is causing symptoms. How old is your son?
> 
> Briss sorry bout AF. Its good to have hope though without it we would give up. It's going to happen for you, I know it just keep on trying diff things it will pay off.
> 
> AFM I didn't test or temp this morning. I will let you know what comes of tomorrow morn just not feeling much different then usual though and didn't want to waste a HPT. Woke up really late today can't wait to see what the temp is tomorrow.

My son is just under 4. He should be out of hospital by this evening. Do far no bacterial have developed in the blood they extracted. He is quite poorly with tonsillitis anyhow. Poor sod. I have no idea what caused the rash they were concerned about though. 

Have you tested yet? What CD are you?


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## alison29

I think a virus can cause a rash. My son had that a couple times when he was sick and maybe 2-3 yrs, he would have a usual cold and fever and also get a rash on his back or stomach... I am so glad he is recovering well. 4 is such a great age (mine turned 5 in Feb it's a great age too)

No i did not test i am still raised temps but not super high or anything. I need to buy some cheap HPT sticks at dollar store so i am not so stingy about testing. I have one test but have been saving. I am cycle day 28. Usually 31 day cycle so temps should be crashing soon if BFN.


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## alison29

I have been missing some temps in the morning the highest i have had was 98.1..Then lowest was this morning at 97.76..I haven't been doing acutal chart so it's hard to say. 

What cycle day are you guys on Shiseru and Blythe? I know Briss is at beginning again.

I really do need to do a real chart and write all my temps down next month..Do you guys pay for the program to put your data in everyday?


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## Blythe

The basic charts for fertility friend are free and that's the one are all using (I think). 

Remember I told you I had brought a reading from psychic 123....well I have been chasing her for about 3 weeks as I told her my reading was written as if for someone TTC their first. She clearly had just sent me a round robin so I asked for one that was personal. Maybe that's why she us ignoring my mail. I'm going to badger her again!! Will let you know if she bothers to return my mail. It infuriates me as she's making probably thousands so she should brush up on her customer service!! Charlatans


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## Briss

Shiseru, do not temp me with dark chocolate :) I skipped breakfast today, had yogurt for lunch and fruit for dinner, if I still did not lose anything tomorrow morning I will be very disappointed 

Alison, we use basic fertility friend charts (the one in my signature), they are free and really great cos you can put down all your symptoms and from time to time you get 3 day VIP for free and can download your VIP charts. Unfortunately both of my chinese docs could not read FF charts, for some reason they prefer manually completed charts without crosshairs. Dr Zhai even asked her assistant to put my temps from FF chart into hers so she could look at it. 

Blythe, I hope your son is feeling much better. 

I am still negotiating blood tests with Dr Zhai, got down to 165 pounds for a simple blood test, I think it's high way robbery. I ate so little last few days but my weight is still the same. hubby said that's the reason he decided to starve himself cos he was not losing much when he just ate less. this is so strange, illogical even. I am losing my motivation


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## shiseru

Yes I use the FF basic charts. I did pay for the VIP before that was when I conceived my daughter, but the basic is good enough and you can share your chart here too!

Briss, you are doing great. I think I lose a little weight over the past few weeks, our team is on diet, because of a man! A man in our team started the diet. During lunch he ate only protein and fibre and no carbo, made us feel so guilty that we are eating so much! So yes the whole team all cut out carbo and sugary stuffs. I can't resist dark chocolate though (oh did I mention dark chocolate is in my list of supplement? LOL!)

165 pounds for a simple blood test is rather costly. Can this BT be done in a GP clinic or somewhere else?


Blythe, I hope your son has a speedy recovery and get your answer soon from psychic 123!

Just look at my temp, it looks disappointing! Down and down it went. :( Well i am going for my CD21 blood test tomorrow. I requested to skip because I am certain the BBT showed ovulation has occurred, but my gynae said the progesterone level is useful if I fail to become pregnant, and it helps detect luteal phase defect. I went for my last acupuncture yesterday. The TCM said it was enough and now we just wait.


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## Blythe

MalaMae said:


> Hi girls! Missed you!
> Read all of your posts. I don't have much to report.
> Have been dealing with family issues and in 1.5 week lost 6.6 lb (eating only 1 per day, I lost my appetite).
> I'm not doing any temping, OPKs, saliva etc. Absolutely nothing! I have no idea when I will ovulate or ovulated :)) we actually finally enjoy random BD :) and it feels great!
> We are not thinking of IUI or IVF at all. I'm letting go and I feel so much more better :)

Malamae - how are you? Have you been BDing every 3 days? Are you feeling liberated from all the temping and opking? I hope you are well :flower:


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## Blythe

Briss said:


> Shiseru, do not temp me with dark chocolate :) I skipped breakfast today, had yogurt for lunch and fruit for dinner, if I still did not lose anything tomorrow morning I will be very disappointed
> 
> Alison, we use basic fertility friend charts (the one in my signature), they are free and really great cos you can put down all your symptoms and from time to time you get 3 day VIP for free and can download your VIP charts. Unfortunately both of my chinese docs could not read FF charts, for some reason they prefer manually completed charts without crosshairs. Dr Zhai even asked her assistant to put my temps from FF chart into hers so she could look at it.
> 
> Blythe, I hope your son is feeling much better.
> 
> I am still negotiating blood tests with Dr Zhai, got down to 165 pounds for a simple blood test, I think it's high way robbery. I ate so little last few days but my weight is still the same. hubby said that's the reason he decided to starve himself cos he was not losing much when he just ate less. this is so strange, illogical even. I am losing my motivation


It is far too expensive. Could you push for updated cd3 bloods on your FS visit on the 7th? After all your fsh levels are surely due for review ahead of any decision to recommend you for IVF/iui etc. 

I am inspired by your dedication and avoidance of chocolate. I have been eating like mad recently and put my skirt on this morning only to have a mass of flesh spill over the top and even the back. Yuk! Keep up the good work. I remember on my previous weight loss programmes that I remain static for a week or two before it starts falling off.

Shiseru and Alison - I have everything crossed for you both :flower:


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## Briss

Blythe, we got down to 117 pounds for Biochemistry test only. I am checking if I can get it cheaper elsewhere. FS will likely ask me to repeat FSH but not the others. I ate almost nothing yesterday and finally for the first time could see some minor positive changes in my weight this morning. have not had anything to eat yet today, just having nettle tea with little bit of honey. feel inspired. It's actually quite shocking how many times a day I have to say no to various treats, they seem to be coming out at me from every corner. I'd previously just go for it cos they seems to be so small almost innocent looking pieces of chocolate or candy but it all adds up in the end. I will try to hold on on just nettle tea and then eat some broccoli in the evening. 

Shiseru, temp does not matter, the most optimistic looking temps lead to BFN and some very miserable temps lead to BFP. I remember looking over a fellow B&B member's chart feeling very sorry for her as her temp went down only to read her BFP announcement a few days later :)


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## Blythe

Briss said:


> Blythe, we got down to 117 pounds for Biochemistry test only. I am checking if I can get it cheaper elsewhere. FS will likely ask me to repeat FSH but not the others. I ate almost nothing yesterday and finally for the first time could see some minor positive changes in my weight this morning. have not had anything to eat yet today, just having nettle tea with little bit of honey. feel inspired. It's actually quite shocking how many times a day I have to say no to various treats, they seem to be coming out at me from every corner. I'd previously just go for it cos they seems to be so small almost innocent looking pieces of chocolate or candy but it all adds up in the end. I will try to hold on on just nettle tea and then eat some broccoli in the evening.
> 
> Shiseru, temp does not matter, the most optimistic looking temps lead to BFN and some very miserable temps lead to BFP. I remember looking over a fellow B&B member's chart feeling very sorry for her as her temp went down only to read her BFP announcement a few days later :)


yes temptation is everywhere....A plateful of broccoli will taste delicious if all you have had is nettle tea today. I bet you will reach your target weight by the end of may easily if you keep this up. 

very good advice re the temps...its so easy to get hung up on temps post ovulation but we have all seen BFPs even when temps fall below cover line.


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## Briss

Blythe, your temp looks very good. what are you taking this cycle?

This is my first cycle completely off any kind of herbs, noticed that my pre O temp is higher than while I was on herbs &#8211; excess heat?

Had a major argument with hubby last night, I was so happy when my DH finally agreed to quit beer and 2 months later he took up running, not normal kind of running but 8-10 hour running wearing really tight pants, I was so upset but could not get through to him until last night when I read that this type of running definitely affects the sperm and testosterone levels&#8230; he still insists that he wants to continue running because that's the only thing that helps him reduce stress caused by my constant unhappiness and our arguments related to TTC, I just feel so hopeless today. trying to get hubby booked for next SA &#8211; Hammersmith hospital has 2 month waiting list! 

the only positive change is a slight drop in my weight this morning &#8211; not surprisingly after 2 days on tea and fruit/veg, unfortunately I have to go to some award ceremony tonight there will be proper dinner with wine etc and since I am going with my partners there is no way I can just sit there drinking tea&#8230; will probably get my weight back up tomorrow morning :(


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## Blythe

Briss I am sorry to hear about your argument with DH. It dounds like he does like to take things to the extreme. TTC is so stressful and puts so much pressure on couples. That is the main reason why my DH does not want to do IVF due to fallout if it does not work (and the cash too). I hope you are able to find a compromise between you and your DH comes to realise that that extreme running will not be conducive to creating quality sperm. 

This month I am taking:
Folate
Multi vit for women
Omega fish oil
Dhea
Vit d
Coq10
Little Chinese herbal pills (dont remember name)
Post ovulation progesterone cream
Glass of ginger and lemon in the morning and selection if green, nettle teas throughout day
Occasional glass of wine, coffee and breakfast tea
Raspberries and walnuts to increase kidney yang
Honey containing pollen and royal jelly
Acu every Sunday 
And Lots of crap food :(

I have asked my Acu doc to write down my last prescription for interest but I'm considering finding a decent herbalist as that, rather than the Acu, will help increase my chances. 

I have a doc appt on Monday so should get my up to date fsh level and detailed report on my hsg.


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## Briss

Blythe, thank you. impressive list but works well for your temp. it's so fine out, I just wish I could leave the office and spend the day outside. I have 28 days unused holidays this year. shocking! not even sure if they let me transfer some of it to next year. all because we cant agree on anything including holidays with DH these days. we are talking donor sperm and divorce unfortunately&#8230; 

Had miso soup for lunch and nothing for breakfast&#8230;so miserable but it would be a shame to stop now when I finally see some minor progress.


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## melly2

Hi Briss,

I know you and I are in the same boat in regards to our hubby's sperm quality and count. My husband had his second SA last week (two months after learning the first count). The news thus far: up to 3.5 million, from 2.5 million. His motility more than doubled and his morph went up as well. Though that's a positive thing, it's still not nearly good enough. So, we're going to continue to work on his count. One thing with him is his testosterone is low, and it isn't budging, even with the prescription he is currently on. His doctor upped his prescription and will see him in a month again. If no improvement, then they will need to start doing HCG shots (which I've heard work really well). I'm actually really hoping that's the route they go, because I've heard it works wonders. 

Anyhow, I wanted to provide an update, as I know you and I are fighting the same battle. There's some progress here...


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## alison29

Hi Guys! swamped at work...But did read the part about not losing weight regardless of what you do and I think eating fruits and veg is the best way to go. A friend at work started logging her calories and we were both absolutely shocked at how much calories a person can eat with out eating much with rice and pasta and bread and meat. A itty bitty bowl of rice is 600 calories! I only need 1500 calories a day and that is not much food. 

She eats one hard boiled egg for break fast now (60-70 calories) soup at lunch 150 calories then small serving of meat liek smaller then your fist and at ton of veggies at night and has been losing weight! but probably eats 1200 calories a day.

My boss eats two fruit smoothies and a small dinner yep starvation is what we have to do to weigh less it sucks!

If i eat a bunch of chocolate (most days) I try to eat broc or lettuce for dinner without dressing or cheese just seasoning. 

I will post about the other stuff later today..


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## alison29

I love the lots of crap food part blythe too funny. all the other stuff sounds really great though..

Briss how bout clomid for dh?..Don't men take that for a few months and have better SA?
Maybe next time he can sit in the hot tub for a while after running 20 miles in tight pants (ugh)..


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## Briss

Melly, thanks for the update, much appreciated. great news on sperm count! some positive movement. what's your DH taking? My DH also has low testosterone, he takes Tribulis. I also gave him some chinese herbs that were supposed to improve his numbers but cant really say whether they worked. He is trying to build some muscle which should also help increase T levels. I am due to see our FS next week, she will probably ask him to repeat his SA. do not even know what to expect. 

Alison, I've heard good stories about clomid improving sperm count but our FS would not refer hubby to urologist and I think you need a urologist to prescribe clomid. I so agree about fruit/veg. I just ate some fruit and hot drinks all day today; at dinner i had a starter and a few bites of beef with beens, skipped potatoes and desert. hopefully, am still on track.


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## melly2

Briss said:


> Melly, thanks for the update, much appreciated. great news on sperm count! some positive movement. what's your DH taking? My DH also has low testosterone, he takes Tribulis. I also gave him some chinese herbs that were supposed to improve his numbers but cant really say whether they worked. He is trying to build some muscle which should also help increase T levels. I am due to see our FS next week, she will probably ask him to repeat his SA. do not even know what to expect.
> 
> Alison, I've heard good stories about clomid improving sperm count but our FS would not refer hubby to urologist and I think you need a urologist to prescribe clomid. I so agree about fruit/veg. I just ate some fruit and hot drinks all day today; at dinner i had a starter and a few bites of beef with beens, skipped potatoes and desert. hopefully, am still on track.

Hi Briss,
My hubby is taking FertiiltyAid for men, acupuncture, Qc10, Omega. His urologist prescribed Clomid, which he is on, however, his testosterone has not increased yet, so they upped his dosage this week. If that does not work, then they will go to HCG injections in May. He has to see a special urologist since he had testicular cancer before, and now he's operating with one testicle, which is most likely the main culprit to his issues. However, like your husband, he has low testosterone, which is the main cause. I've heard really good things about the HCG injections and mixed results on Clomid. The Clomid doesn't appear to be helping my husband much, so we're thinking about moving to the HCG injections next month. Though his count has went up, as his doctor said, it's still not near good enough. We need ideally 10 million just for IUI.


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## alison29

Wow that really sucks about your dr. Its a bit different with the insurance company i have. Sounds good about your diet...I did good with dinner last night (salade) but then had triscuits with peanut butter later so BAd.

Afm CD2 Surprise! I did not have much hope this cycle hardly any bding but their is always the what if thoughts, but as you know i have been at this for so long what ever.

My friend at work had bad news at her ultrasound today she was "9 weeks" but i am guessing she had missed miscarriage don't know though just got a text. Wow that is just gutting. I don't know what is worse to never get pregnant at all or too be pregnant and have a miscarriage and not even know about it for a few weeks. She was not sick which was sort of strange/worrisome. 

Where you at shiseru?? Hi blythe! and melly2.


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## MalaMae

Blythe said:


> MalaMae said:
> 
> 
> Hi girls! Missed you!
> Read all of your posts. I don't have much to report.
> Have been dealing with family issues and in 1.5 week lost 6.6 lb (eating only 1 per day, I lost my appetite).
> I'm not doing any temping, OPKs, saliva etc. Absolutely nothing! I have no idea when I will ovulate or ovulated :)) we actually finally enjoy random BD :) and it feels great!
> We are not thinking of IUI or IVF at all. I'm letting go and I feel so much more better :)
> 
> Malamae - how are you? Have you been BDing every 3 days? Are you feeling liberated from all the temping and opking? I hope you are well :flower:Click to expand...

OMG! It's amazing to feel free of everything!!! And the BD is 100 times better now :))))
Due to family issues I can't really think of ttc, anyway.


----------



## Briss

Melly, thanks for the list, my dh is on a pretty much the same except for clomid. i really want him to try clomid. I also read that clomid does not work for everyone. maybe the HCG injections would work better for your DH. do you know if they have any side effects?

MalaMay, it's great to hear that you are doing well!

afm, so hungry! constantly hungry. again had tea and fruit and miso soup, no food. worked until 10 pm. after yesterday's dinner, my weight went back up so i guess the only way to lose weight is not eat...:(


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## Blythe

MalaMae said:


> Blythe said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MalaMae said:
> 
> 
> Hi girls! Missed you!
> Read all of your posts. I don't have much to report.
> Have been dealing with family issues and in 1.5 week lost 6.6 lb (eating only 1 per day, I lost my appetite).
> I'm not doing any temping, OPKs, saliva etc. Absolutely nothing! I have no idea when I will ovulate or ovulated :)) we actually finally enjoy random BD :) and it feels great!
> We are not thinking of IUI or IVF at all. I'm letting go and I feel so much more better :)
> 
> Malamae - how are you? Have you been BDing every 3 days? Are you feeling liberated from all the temping and opking? I hope you are well :flower:Click to expand...
> 
> OMG! It's amazing to feel free of everything!!! And the BD is 100 times better now :))))
> Due to family issues I can't really think of ttc, anyway.Click to expand...


Lovely to hear from you :) I'm sorry you are having family issues :( you sound like you have been set free....and good news about the BD :) I think if we stopped TTC there would be no BD at all!!


----------



## Blythe

alison29 said:



> Wow that really sucks about your dr. Its a bit different with the insurance company i have. Sounds good about your diet...I did good with dinner last night (salade) but then had triscuits with peanut butter later so BAd.
> 
> Afm CD2 Surprise! I did not have much hope this cycle hardly any bding but their is always the what if thoughts, but as you know i have been at this for so long what ever.
> 
> My friend at work had bad news at her ultrasound today she was "9 weeks" but i am guessing she had missed miscarriage don't know though just got a text. Wow that is just gutting. I don't know what is worse to never get pregnant at all or too be pregnant and have a miscarriage and not even know about it for a few weeks. She was not sick which was sort of strange/worrisome.
> 
> Where you at shiseru?? Hi blythe! and melly2.

Hello love :) Sorry AF got you:( I can hardly imagine getting a bfp but I must hold onto the belief that it will happen :) i certain it will happen for all of us but we just have to keep going on. sometimes when I'm feeling blue I just say words like positive, fertile, pregnant, happy etc and my brain switches gear...it's simple but does seen to work for me (for a while at least).

I'm so sorry about your friend....that must be heartbreaking. A colleague's wife had a MMC before Christmas but she is now 10 weeks pregnant again. They paid for an early scan to get some reassurance. I hope your friend will be ok. A terrible thing to he through.


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## Blythe

Shiseru - your temps look wonderful. How are you?


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## Blythe

Briss said:


> Melly, thanks for the list, my dh is on a pretty much the same except for clomid. i really want him to try clomid. I also read that clomid does not work for everyone. maybe the HCG injections would work better for your DH. do you know if they have any side effects?
> 
> MalaMay, it's great to hear that you are doing well!
> 
> afm, so hungry! constantly hungry. again had tea and fruit and miso soup, no food. worked until 10 pm. after yesterday's dinner, my weight went back up so i guess the only way to lose weight is not eat...:(


Briss - you are on a starvation diet as it is. This is not sustainable, particularly working the hours you do. Are you finding it difficult to concentrate? Please start eating food again and just cut the sugar. The weight will come off but not so quickly. No food=reduced fertility. Sorry to be blunt but I worry when I see your posts about lack of food.


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## Briss

Blythe, surprisingly, my concentration is not affected I just feel hungry most of the time but bananas really help here :) for the first time in years I went below 55 kg mark this morning. (I know 55 may seem like not a huge weight but I am rather small and light boned so for me it's a lot) two weeks off chocolate and bad sugars!! I am so pleased with this but it does not help reduce weight, it's just not enough and I found it morally difficult to deprive myself of this one thing i crave the most without getting any benefit. When I see my weight slowly but gradually getting down it helps me stay on track. it's really hard to motivate myself I almost gave up after a week when I did not see any progress. also my DH still insists on running for 10 hours so there is no chance of me getting pregnant this cycle I may as well use it to get into a more pleasing shape so I stop hate myself so much. Unfortunately there is nothing positive for me out there at the moment that i can enjoy or look forward to, if I manage to get my weight down to what it was before I was 30 it may stop me from getting into depression... sorry to sound so negative, am not in a good place right now


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## Blythe

Briss said:


> Blythe, surprisingly, my concentration is not affected I just feel hungry most of the time but bananas really help here :) for the first time in years I went below 55 kg mark this morning. (I know 55 may seem like not a huge weight but I am rather small and light boned so for me it's a lot) two weeks off chocolate and bad sugars!! I am so pleased with this but it does not help reduce weight, it's just not enough and I found it morally difficult to deprive myself of this one thing i crave the most without getting any benefit. When I see my weight slowly but gradually getting down it helps me stay on track. it's really hard to motivate myself I almost gave up after a week when I did not see any progress. also my DH still insists on running for 10 hours so there is no chance of me getting pregnant this cycle I may as well use it to get into a more pleasing shape so I stop hate myself so much. Unfortunately there is nothing positive for me out there at the moment that i can enjoy or look forward to, if I manage to get my weight down to what it was before I was 30 it may stop me from getting into depression... sorry to sound so negative, am not in a good place right now

:hugs::hugs: I'm replying from the changing room in tk maxx and I totally understand. Was about to buy an oversized shapeless top and then thought a few weeks of discipline and I can fit in my old stuff or go buy something new. It was so baggy that I held it out near my tummy and thought I could also wear when pregnant. I'm putting it back!!


----------



## Briss

I love tkmax! most of my bags, shoes and underwear come from there. I cant buy oversized things cos they just make me look round like a ball on legs :) I went to topshop the other day but did not venture to try anything yet, another 2 weeks and I might be able to do that. I can see my weight changing in kg but I cant see it on my body, clothes is still very very tight. until I can wear my old trousers I do not think I will be going out shopping, it'll just depress me. just did 30 min aerobics and off to mountain biking with a friend. had a latte, 3 eggs and fruit. been crying non-stop today. I should have let my DH go to china and miss ovulation cos with all this running he is no use to me anyway... so hopeless


----------



## Blythe

oh Briss - please don't cry :( I cannot believe that your DH does not listen to your concerns re the excessive exercising...although my bet is he has. i suppose he did start the exercising to build testosterone to help with his sperm count. he probably thought the mad running routine would help and now he is being told that it isn't. i suspect there is a bit of male pride at work here....i think he will change his routine soon enough. 

your comment re ball on legs made me laugh a lot...recently i have been likening myself to an old character played by Les Dawson...he played a gossipy old woman...she was a ball on [hairy] legs. I will look very much like that character soon if i dont pull my finger out. 

I'm embarrassed to say that i have bitten my nails quite badly since i was a child. they have always looked so appalling that i would hold my paper on the tube with them bent over so no-one could see. the other week i was thinking about how very disciplined [obsessed] i have been with TTC and the daily supplements, the avoidance of excessive caffeine, booze, ice cream and exercise etc and thought if only i could apply that to my nails. Well i treated myself to some 'Nail Envy' which is very expensive in boots and now my nails have grown and now im quite proud of them. The skin around them is still picked at but generally i feel i have triumphed. I feel happy when i look at them. Now i need to do that with my body....i know that getting a stone off would make me feel terrific and being able to wear my old clothes and make some new ones in a size 10/12 would be amazing. It would certainly divert my attention away from the misery of LTTTC. 

I hope you have a great afternoon....london comes alive in the summer :)


----------



## Blythe

i forgot to mention....Earlier today i went to a different chinese herbalist...the one that is in the market. He has raw herbs and charges £5 per bag...well he charges £6 per bag [1 x per day] but i said the other guy who he has taken over from charges £5 so he will go with that. I still have some tablets im taking so will finish this cycle before deciding what to do. I had a quick 10 min massage with him and the treatment area is behind a curtain and was quite frankly very messy and a bit grubby really....I would not have been surprised to see a well fingered porn mag stuck to underside of the bed but the massage itself was nice enough.....the chinese doc said my hands felt cold indicating deficient kidney yang and bad circulation. Honestly, i had exactly the same prognosis when i first started with the acu and herbs back in december. How long does it take to actually do anything or maybe the treatment i have been receiving is just completely ineffective.

i know of another acu/herbs place in streatham which is a bus ride away and i may check that out soon and see how much they charge for herbs as i know they do the raw ones.


----------



## Briss

I do not care for my nails but I have a thing for hair. When I am stressed (which is all the time) I play with them to the point that they break :( in the end for many years I was not able to grow hair and every time I go to a hairdresser they cant understand what's wrong with my cut and what an idiot did my hair before :) I cant really explain that it's me so i change my hair dressers very often. It affects my look cos long hair really suit me. as soon as I managed to get my body back, that would be my next point of improvement. 

We did not go mountain biking just did normal bikes - so much easier! 

I went to my physiotherapist on friday and she showed me how wrong my posture is and basically one of my shoulders is so much lower than the other one, I never really saw it. quite upsetting. she showed what my posture is supposed to be and I have to say i have no idea how I can make my body keep it all the time, i could not even keep it for a few minutes. she showed me a few exercised so determined to do them every day

Blythe, are you sure his raw herbs are of good quality? do you know who his suppliers are? 

People are noticing that my acne got better.


----------



## shiseru

Hello ladies, though not posting but am following closely on this thread.

Briss, I am sorry to hear that you have some argument with your DH. Things are getting a little too stressful for you both in regard to TTC. BIG HUGS! My DH and I had argument during TTC as I wanted him to stop smoking, no hot shower and cut down coffee. These seriously affected the relationship so we both sat down and have a good talk about it. Good to hear about your weight loss, keep it up! 28 days of leaves wow, i would love to use these leaves for IVF!

melly2, do not take these SA results too seriously. My friend's DH tested twice and results were lousy but she conceived 5x, 3 losses (1 being mid term loss) and now she has 2 boys. I am surprised your doctor would want at least 10 million for IUI. During the IUI session we had 4 millon count, good motility and were told that was great. I read an article it said anything more than 5 million is unlikely to up the chances for IUI. I guess individual doctor has their own thinking.

Blythe, I love your temp! Lots of crap food (LOL love that too). And hope you have a great time in London! I used to bite my nails when I am nervous, i do so nowadays too. Love my hair for sure, I was a hairstylist for 7 years, then i moved on to something more desk bound, it was a huge switch.

Alison, sorry about your af, and about your friend's mc. It is really devastating when one suffered losses. Absolutely agree about what is worse to never get pregnant at all or to be pregnant and have a miscarriage, i think both SUCKS! 

MalaMae, glad to hear that bd has become so much fun without the stress of having to BD because of wanting a baby. I hope your family issue settles soon.

AFM, i am DPO 12 today. I stopped charting (chicken out, i am too scare to know my BBT) after I went for my progesterone CD21 blood test last week Thursday. My level was 54ish 7DPO. It was a good number - I did ovulate. On mediated cycles, doctor wants to see at least 15, and 10 on non medicated cycles for ovulation. 

I was told to go back this Friday (16DPO) for BT provided if no af, but anyway I have booked the appt with the doctor on that day as well, in case if results is negative i can start the next round immediately. My DH and I will go dating in the afternoon after all the BT and consultation. It is either gonna be a celebration (if it's positive). If not, we will drown our sorrow over a couple of glasses of wine...


----------



## Blythe

Briss said:


> I do not care for my nails but I have a thing for hair. When I am stressed (which is all the time) I play with them to the point that they break :( in the end for many years I was not able to grow hair and every time I go to a hairdresser they cant understand what's wrong with my cut and what an idiot did my hair before :) I cant really explain that it's me so i change my hair dressers very often. It affects my look cos long hair really suit me. as soon as I managed to get my body back, that would be my next point of improvement.
> 
> We did not go mountain biking just did normal bikes - so much easier!
> 
> I went to my physiotherapist on friday and she showed me how wrong my posture is and basically one of my shoulders is so much lower than the other one, I never really saw it. quite upsetting. she showed what my posture is supposed to be and I have to say i have no idea how I can make my body keep it all the time, i could not even keep it for a few minutes. she showed me a few exercised so determined to do them every day
> 
> Blythe, are you sure his raw herbs are of good quality? do you know who his suppliers are?
> 
> People are noticing that my acne got better.


its amazing that we can walk around for years with bad posture and not really notice it. i roll my shoulders forwards which probably does not help with my back. once you start consciously changing things it becomes second nature after a while. Its good that you have been given some exercises to do...once you have done them for a week you will do them without thinking about it. 

i got a list of the herbs i had been on from the acu doc yesterday as follows:

huang qi
bai shao
chi shao
chuan qiong
shou di
dang gui
ji xue teng
sang ji sheng
du zhong
yi mu cao
gan cao
ghi zhi
dan shen

my temps have gone through the roof today but i came down with a fever yesterday and felt ghastly all day/night. a BFN earlier today but no surprise. With my first pregnancy my boobs hurt ALOT from about 6dpo...i know each pregnancy is different but i always grab my boobs in the 2ww and if they dont hurt i pretty much know im out for that month.

last week i got depressed about this stupid TTC business and thought if i did not get my BFP this cycle i would treat myself on my birthday by making an appt with CREAT health clinic. But im going to hold off a while longer and do the black cohosh next cycle...always have to have a plan or else i risk complete breakdown :(

i dont think i will return to the chinese medicine guy in the market as his little clinic was just too dirty. it is a part of a chain...the ones you see on every high street but still, who knows where the herbs have come from or how they have been stored. i am thinking about having powdered herbs again but i will have to ask them to give me larger dosages as really the 3/4 months i was taking them made no difference at all to any aspect of my health.


----------



## Blythe

shiseru said:


> Hello ladies, though not posting but am following closely on this thread.
> 
> Briss, I am sorry to hear that you have some argument with your DH. Things are getting a little too stressful for you both in regard to TTC. BIG HUGS! My DH and I had argument during TTC as I wanted him to stop smoking, no hot shower and cut down coffee. These seriously affected the relationship so we both sat down and have a good talk about it. Good to hear about your weight loss, keep it up! 28 days of leaves wow, i would love to use these leaves for IVF!
> 
> melly2, do not take these SA results too seriously. My friend's DH tested twice and results were lousy but she conceived 5x, 3 losses (1 being mid term loss) and now she has 2 boys. I am surprised your doctor would want at least 10 million for IUI. During the IUI session we had 4 millon count, good motility and were told that was great. I read an article it said anything more than 5 million is unlikely to up the chances for IUI. I guess individual doctor has their own thinking.
> 
> Blythe, I love your temp! Lots of crap food (LOL love that too). And hope you have a great time in London! I used to bite my nails when I am nervous, i do so nowadays too. Love my hair for sure, I was a hairstylist for 7 years, then i moved on to something more desk bound, it was a huge switch.
> 
> Alison, sorry about your af, and about your friend's mc. It is really devastating when one suffered losses. Absolutely agree about what is worse to never get pregnant at all or to be pregnant and have a miscarriage, i think both SUCKS!
> 
> MalaMae, glad to hear that bd has become so much fun without the stress of having to BD because of wanting a baby. I hope your family issue settles soon.
> 
> AFM, i am DPO 12 today. I stopped charting (chicken out, i am too scare to know my BBT) after I went for my progesterone CD21 blood test last week Thursday. My level was 54ish 7DPO. It was a good number - I did ovulate. On mediated cycles, doctor wants to see at least 15, and 10 on non medicated cycles for ovulation.
> 
> I was told to go back this Friday (16DPO) for BT provided if no af, but anyway I have booked the appt with the doctor on that day as well, in case if results is negative i can start the next round immediately. My DH and I will go dating in the afternoon after all the BT and consultation. It is either gonna be a celebration (if it's positive). If not, we will drown our sorrow over a couple of glasses of wine...

Shiseru - i have everything crossed for you. such a nerve wracking time. your cycle is already longer than your last isn't it. 

i love that you plan to have a date with your DH in the afternoon :) i sincerely hope you will be celebrating :flower:


----------



## Blythe

Blythe said:


> Briss said:
> 
> 
> I do not care for my nails but I have a thing for hair. When I am stressed (which is all the time) I play with them to the point that they break :( in the end for many years I was not able to grow hair and every time I go to a hairdresser they cant understand what's wrong with my cut and what an idiot did my hair before :) I cant really explain that it's me so i change my hair dressers very often. It affects my look cos long hair really suit me. as soon as I managed to get my body back, that would be my next point of improvement.
> 
> We did not go mountain biking just did normal bikes - so much easier!
> 
> I went to my physiotherapist on friday and she showed me how wrong my posture is and basically one of my shoulders is so much lower than the other one, I never really saw it. quite upsetting. she showed what my posture is supposed to be and I have to say i have no idea how I can make my body keep it all the time, i could not even keep it for a few minutes. she showed me a few exercised so determined to do them every day
> 
> Blythe, are you sure his raw herbs are of good quality? do you know who his suppliers are?
> 
> People are noticing that my acne got better.
> 
> 
> its amazing that we can walk around for years with bad posture and not really notice it. i roll my shoulders forwards which probably does not help with my back. once you start consciously changing things it becomes second nature after a while. Its good that you have been given some exercises to do...once you have done them for a week you will do them without thinking about it.
> 
> i got a list of the herbs i had been on from the acu doc yesterday as follows:
> 
> huang qi
> bai shao
> chi shao
> chuan qiong
> shou di
> dang gui
> ji xue teng
> sang ji sheng
> du zhong
> yi mu cao
> gan cao
> ghi zhi
> dan shen
> 
> my temps have gone through the roof today but i came down with a fever yesterday and felt ghastly all day/night. a BFN earlier today but no surprise. With my first pregnancy my boobs hurt ALOT from about 6dpo...i know each pregnancy is different but i always grab my boobs in the 2ww and if they dont hurt i pretty much know im out for that month.
> 
> last week i got depressed about this stupid TTC business and thought if i did not get my BFP this cycle i would treat myself on my birthday by making an appt with CREAT health clinic. But im going to hold off a while longer and do the black cohosh next cycle...always have to have a plan or else i risk complete breakdown :(
> 
> i dont think i will return to the chinese medicine guy in the market as his little clinic was just too dirty. it is a part of a chain...the ones you see on every high street but still, who knows where the herbs have come from or how they have been stored. i am thinking about having powdered herbs again but i will have to ask them to give me larger dosages as really the 3/4 months i was taking them made no difference at all to any aspect of my health.Click to expand...




i have just been involved in a webinar on work/life balance and apparently it takes 2 or 3 weeks to make a habit routine......

so only a week to go and chocolate will be a distant memory for you:winkwink:


----------



## Briss

yesterday, I nearly gave up, was so close! I felt like I cant go on until I have a piece of something sweet. not even sure how I managed to stay on track, my weight is slightly up this morning. My hunger is actually reducing, I am noticing that I can live on less food if I put my mind to it. overall, still pretty hard. clothes is still very very tight&#8230;


----------



## alison29

Briss Awesome about you hunger reducing and the herbs...I don't know how long it takes but i would say 3-6 months they say that about all the natural supplements..

Stomach flu made it's way thru house this past couple of weeks dh is the last to succum and it better not be next week when I O..

Fingers crossed for you shiseru!

I don't think i even ovulated last cycle i was thinking my temps were up they used to be in the 96 range in lututeal phase but now that i am on pregnitude I tempted this morning and it was 97.8. I am on clomid again 3-7 and ovaboost (seems like more for less money then the pregnitude). So fingers crossed ..

There was a Psychic fair just by my house saturday i was dying to go to this weekend want to go next time with my friend who had the mc she was going through the awful medicated process this weekend so could do it.


----------



## alison29

Blythe with my friend i bet she will insist they do the betas next time and all that. I know it will happen for her though.


----------



## Blythe

alison29 said:


> Briss Awesome about you hunger reducing and the herbs...I don't know how long it takes but i would say 3-6 months they say that about all the natural supplements..
> 
> Stomach flu made it's way thru house this past couple of weeks dh is the last to succum and it better not be next week when I O..
> 
> Fingers crossed for you shiseru!
> 
> I don't think i even ovulated last cycle i was thinking my temps were up they used to be in the 96 range in lututeal phase but now that i am on pregnitude I tempted this morning and it was 97.8. I am on clomid again 3-7 and ovaboost (seems like more for less money then the pregnitude). So fingers crossed ..
> 
> There was a Psychic fair just by my house saturday i was dying to go to this weekend want to go next time with my friend who had the mc she was going through the awful medicated process this weekend so could do it.



Stomach flu is the pits....i have been laid up with it the past two days...yuk! i really hope it does not get you next week. 

are pregnitude and ovaboost things you can buy from the chemist or are they on prescription?

i never heard back from the psychic despite numerous attempts to contact her. i am very wary of them now and think it is just a very easy way to make lots and lots of money preying on vulnerable people who are looking for some hope. Not just a fraud but a crap business woman too...there is nothing more infuriating than being ignored:growlmad:

i had my CD3 bloods back today and my FSH was 7.8 IU/L and my Estradiol was 113 pmol/l which i think is quite good. So despite pretty good results between me and DH we still cannot, after 30 cycles, get pregnant. it feels like a lottery....im hoping this DHEA is doing something great.

alison i cannot remember...are you taking chinese herbs?


----------



## Briss

Blythe, well done on FSH 7.8!!! that's really impressive. with this result your age should not be an issue and I would think you still have time to TTC naturally


----------



## alison29

Blythe said:


> alison29 said:
> 
> 
> Briss Awesome about you hunger reducing and the herbs...I don't know how long it takes but i would say 3-6 months they say that about all the natural supplements..
> 
> Stomach flu made it's way thru house this past couple of weeks dh is the last to succum and it better not be next week when I O..
> 
> Fingers crossed for you shiseru!
> 
> I don't think i even ovulated last cycle i was thinking my temps were up they used to be in the 96 range in lututeal phase but now that i am on pregnitude I tempted this morning and it was 97.8. I am on clomid again 3-7 and ovaboost (seems like more for less money then the pregnitude). So fingers crossed ..
> 
> There was a Psychic fair just by my house saturday i was dying to go to this weekend want to go next time with my friend who had the mc she was going through the awful medicated process this weekend so could do it.
> 
> 
> 
> Stomach flu is the pits....i have been laid up with it the past two days...yuk! i really hope it does not get you next week.
> 
> are pregnitude and ovaboost things you can buy from the chemist or are they on prescription?
> 
> i never heard back from the psychic despite numerous attempts to contact her. i am very wary of them now and think it is just a very easy way to make lots and lots of money preying on vulnerable people who are looking for some hope. Not just a fraud but a crap business woman too...there is nothing more infuriating than being ignored:growlmad:
> 
> i had my CD3 bloods back today and my FSH was 7.8 IU/L and my Estradiol was 113 pmol/l which i think is quite good. So despite pretty good results between me and DH we still cannot, after 30 cycles, get pregnant. it feels like a lottery....im hoping this DHEA is doing something great.
> 
> alison i cannot remember...are you taking chinese herbs?Click to expand...

ITs the worst isn't it? You will feel like new after 4 days. I am taking Ovaboost now switched from pregnitude 34 plus ship (which you can buy on line) the ovabosst 28 all together was cheaper and had extra stuff mysoinsoitol, coq10, melatonin and some other antioxidents. No herbs for me have taken them in the past though.

That is great that your levels are good. Why don't you try the pregnitude or the ovaboost? IT helps a lot of people get over the ledge so to speak.

It does feel like a lottery. IT is so strange being "healthy" well i am not so sure about my ovulation now on my own but in four years never a BFP so weird. What exactly happens in there every month i would love to know.


----------



## Blythe

cheers alison - im going to check out this ova boost.

if you can - try and link up your chart so we can nose at it...

found this...not sure if these instructions are up to date though

https://babyandbump.momtastic.com/trying-to-conceive/339728-add-fertility-friend-chart.html


----------



## Blythe

im 41 today and feel quite good about it....despite DHEA induced acne and receding hairline!!


----------



## Briss

Blythe said:


> im 41 today and feel quite good about it....despite DHEA induced acne and receding hairline!!

I am hoping this will turn out to be one of the best years of your life. wishing you a BFP followed by a healthy pregnancy and a gorgeous healthy baby!!! Life begins at forty one! :happydance:

How are you planning to celebrate?


----------



## Blythe

Briss said:


> Blythe said:
> 
> 
> im 41 today and feel quite good about it....despite DHEA induced acne and receding hairline!!
> 
> I am hoping this will turn out to be one of the best years of your life. wishing you a BFP followed by a healthy pregnancy and a gorgeous healthy baby!!! Life begins at forty one! :happydance:
> 
> How are you planning to celebrate?Click to expand...



thank you so much Briss - lovely message :)

i have been out for a massive coffee and i will meet up with DH later for some booze in a local pub :) Despite my lovely looking temps i am not pregnant this cycle but im ok with that. 

I went to docs earlier and got her to refer me to King College Hospital for 'self funded' fertility treatments. They do natural IVF and its cheaper than CREATE although im thinking perhaps IUI but we will see. I will send off my referral letter tomorrow and then keep going natural for the next 2/3 months.


----------



## alison29

Blythe said:


> cheers alison - im going to check out this ova boost.
> 
> if you can - try and link up your chart so we can nose at it...
> 
> found this...not sure if these instructions are up to date though
> 
> https://babyandbump.momtastic.com/trying-to-conceive/339728-add-fertility-friend-chart.html

I will I just started doing a real chart on Ova boost website but I will check out fertility friend now..I am on cd 7...
DS had swimmers ear yesterday..Got some drops waited at pharmacy for an hour to get drops finally got back to work at 4 and at 430 Daycare called to say he had a 103 fever. He is ok today though poor little guy!. We are no strangers to ear infections though.

ok i am going to try to work FF now


----------



## Briss

Blythe, well done on taking the first step towards assisted conception. I really need to start doing this as well. Meeting my FS tomorrow but she will probably want to check my FSH and hubby's SA before she can refer us. I cant believe it's May already! I was going to start natural self funded IVF in Jan/Feb &#8230; your temp looks great and you still have a few days maybe something wonderful is happening at this moment. 

I am doing something I have not done before - taking a day off (on Friday) just to stay at home and do nothing. I feel so tired from overworking and overstressing!

am a bit disappointed with my weight loss, there has been no change since Saturday. even though I am practically living on water (not quite but close). I guess without exercising I wont lose anything. Tried some of my "old" skirts today - nothing fits yet. Went to One New Change today to check out top shop but found street market with all sorts of wonderful food: Argentinean empanadas, Portuguese, West Indian and German food, French cheese, handmade cupcakes and English fudge. I felt like an outcast with my pitiful packet of dried apricots for lunch. I cant wait to lose my weight so I could start living normally again and enjoy my food! 

I did some of the blood tests that Dr Zhai requested, paid 77 pounds (a lot! but slightly less than 115 at her clinic), waiting for her to tell me whether I can finally start the treatment. My corporate GP was not impressed with the idea of TCM and warned me to be very careful because it's all untested stuff. she is probably right cos I do not think my previous Chinese doc got it right &#8211; 4 months of terrible acne cant be good, can it? my face is so much better now I can even flirt with colleagues. btw, for some reason my "infamous horn" has come today and not yesterday when I had my peak and we BD. I hope CBFM has got it right and I am ovulating today.


----------



## alison29

ugh so your hair line is receding?? I can relate..I took birth control pills constant for 3 months about 7 months ago and 2 months ago i had tellium effluvum and i have half the amount of long hairs. Not worry though I have a bunch of stubble so it;s not permanent. I wish i would quit falloing out already

I use Nutriox liquid scalp treatment at front though it's 16 $ on line and it lasts a long itme. IT's cheap nioxin.

Happy birthday woman! I don't feel so bad about my birthday coming up may 16 either. I am going to enjoy this spring and summer however wacked out on clomid i may be! I already planned next years spring break...Just going to my mom's who lives 4 blocks from the beach but anyway still excting away from work.


----------



## shiseru

Happy Birthday Blythe! Wishing you health and happiness. Glad to know you are starting to plan for fertility treatment and definitely hope you won't be needing it and you get a bfp before these treatment.

Alison, I never had ear infection before but ouch boy it sounds awful, hope it clears up very soon! Yeah i am nosy about your BBT, so do share your BBT chart with us! It's always good to take a break once in a while, I love that and I make sure i travel at least 3 x per year, 2 short trips and 1 long trip.

Briss, take one day off and just get lazy around the house doing nothing just rot on the sofa and enjoy the day! You'll feel refresh the next day! You won't be able to see much difference in weight if you are weighing everyday, so don't get too stress out. Try weighing once a week i am sure you see some difference, you are doing really well keeping in control of your diet!

Well my birthday is in May as well, the 29th! My child's birthday is 18 May. So yeah! Happy Birthday to the magnificent ladies of May! :D

15 dpo today and I will have my blood test tomorrow. I feel crampy and bloated these few days. I am on progesterone pessaries and I heard it delay LP. I stopped the progesterone today as I didn't want any delay if not pregnant so I can start the next cycle asap. Of course if BT comes back positive, I can start the progesterone and continue throughout the 1st trimester.


----------



## Briss

today was just one of those days when you get one bad news after another. 

SA: finally got DH's Feb SA results and they are worst ever at 1 million and only occasional motility. this is truly depressing. Just hoping things are improving since he quit beer. she refused to prescribe him chlomid or HCG shots and would not refer him for any blood tests because she thinks he has no hormonal problem and that his issue is just too much toxins from alcohol. she referred us for another SA but she still thinks we should go IUI/IVF because his sperm was never good enough. I just cant believe how much money wasted on all the vitamins and supplements - no use at all any of them while DH was still drinking beer or fasting.

DHEA: asked FS about DHEA and she is so against it. she said they only prescribe DHEA as a last resort thing and only in the context of IVF, when everything else fails and this is virtually the last cycle TTC in order to give it the very best possible last shot. she also said as far as NHS is concerned the benefits of DHEA have not been proved in the context of natural TTC. we have examples on B&B that proves the opposite but still I would not take it just yet. 

Natural Cycle IVF: she thinks this is an option for me because of my high FSH but she would still recommend the medicated cycle. I explain the family history of ovarian cancer and my cysts but she said cysts are very common and would not necessarily lead to cancer even when stimulated. she also does not think quality of eggs diminishes in medicated cycle because ovaries are designed to produce many follicles and it's only in the last stages of their development that one egg matures while others die, Meds are simply allowing all those other follicles to mature as well. sort of makes sense. I am to come back for bloods on CD2-3 and then after DH repeats his SA in July we would probably be referred for assisted conception.

On top of that our HR is refusing to transfer my unused holidays to next year. they can pay for some but others I will just lose. I personally think this is so unfair! smb who is working every weekend and bank holiday should also be losing annual leave she is entitled to... 

Finally DR Zhai accepted my bloods and made a prescription. I am supposed to collect my two weeks of raw herbs tomorrow. but she made no prescription for acu yet. I understand that I should take the herbs and only after they had some effect I can move on to herbs.


----------



## Blythe

alison29 said:


> ugh so your hair line is receding?? I can relate..I took birth control pills constant for 3 months about 7 months ago and 2 months ago i had tellium effluvum and i have half the amount of long hairs. Not worry though I have a bunch of stubble so it;s not permanent. I wish i would quit falloing out already
> 
> I use Nutriox liquid scalp treatment at front though it's 16 $ on line and it lasts a long itme. IT's cheap nioxin.
> 
> Happy birthday woman! I don't feel so bad about my birthday coming up may 16 either. I am going to enjoy this spring and summer however wacked out on clomid i may be! I already planned next years spring break...Just going to my mom's who lives 4 blocks from the beach but anyway still excting away from work.

My hair is noticeably thinner all over and I am really thinning out near hairline....it really does not look good. I am scaling back on dhea to 25mg per day in the hope my skin will clear up too. Honestly what we do ourselves !! It's great to have a holiday to look forward too....what with saving fur a mortgage and now looking like we will have some form of assisted fertility this year there's no holidays for us for a while.


----------



## Blythe

shiseru said:


> Happy Birthday Blythe! Wishing you health and happiness. Glad to know you are starting to plan for fertility treatment and definitely hope you won't be needing it and you get a bfp before these treatment.
> 
> Alison, I never had ear infection before but ouch boy it sounds awful, hope it clears up very soon! Yeah i am nosy about your BBT, so do share your BBT chart with us! It's always good to take a break once in a while, I love that and I make sure i travel at least 3 x per year, 2 short trips and 1 long trip.
> 
> Briss, take one day off and just get lazy around the house doing nothing just rot on the sofa and enjoy the day! You'll feel refresh the next day! You won't be able to see much difference in weight if you are weighing everyday, so don't get too stress out. Try weighing once a week i am sure you see some difference, you are doing really well keeping in control of your diet!
> 
> Well my birthday is in May as well, the 29th! My child's birthday is 18 May. So yeah! Happy Birthday to the magnificent ladies of May! :D
> 
> 15 dpo today and I will have my blood test tomorrow. I feel crampy and bloated these few days. I am on progesterone pessaries and I heard it delay LP. I stopped the progesterone today as I didn't want any delay if not pregnant so I can start the next cycle asap. Of course if BT comes back positive, I can start the progesterone and continue throughout the 1st trimester.


Thank you :)

Shiseru I will be thinking of you tomorrow and hope you get a wonderful result.


----------



## Blythe

Briss said:


> today was just one of those days when you get one bad news after another.
> 
> SA: finally got DH's Feb SA results and they are worst ever at 1 million and only occasional motility. this is truly depressing. Just hoping things are improving since he quit beer. she refused to prescribe him chlomid or HCG shots and would not refer him for any blood tests because she thinks he has no hormonal problem and that his issue is just too much toxins from alcohol. she referred us for another SA but she still thinks we should go IUI/IVF because his sperm was never good enough. I just cant believe how much money wasted on all the vitamins and supplements - no use at all any of them while DH was still drinking beer or fasting.
> 
> DHEA: asked FS about DHEA and she is so against it. she said they only prescribe DHEA as a last resort thing and only in the context of IVF, when everything else fails and this is virtually the last cycle TTC in order to give it the very best possible last shot. she also said as far as NHS is concerned the benefits of DHEA have not been proved in the context of natural TTC. we have examples on B&B that proves the opposite but still I would not take it just yet.
> 
> Natural Cycle IVF: she thinks this is an option for me because of my high FSH but she would still recommend the medicated cycle. I explain the family history of ovarian cancer and my cysts but she said cysts are very common and would not necessarily lead to cancer even when stimulated. she also does not think quality of eggs diminishes in medicated cycle because ovaries are designed to produce many follicles and it's only in the last stages of their development that one egg matures while others die, Meds are simply allowing all those other follicles to mature as well. sort of makes sense. I am to come back for bloods on CD2-3 and then after DH repeats his SA in July we would probably be referred for assisted conception.
> 
> On top of that our HR is refusing to transfer my unused holidays to next year. they can pay for some but others I will just lose. I personally think this is so unfair! smb who is working every weekend and bank holiday should also be losing annual leave she is entitled to...
> 
> Finally DR Zhai accepted my bloods and made a prescription. I am supposed to collect my two weeks of raw herbs tomorrow. but she made no prescription for acu yet. I understand that I should take the herbs and only after they had some effect I can move on to herbs.

What a crap day Briss :( that sperm sample is an old one and I'm so sure that the good work your DH has done avoiding alcohol will make a difference to the next sample but understand your disappointment. .

I am thinking about medicated IVF simply because it is something we would only do once due to finances and I want best possible chance of it taking..... I would have been surprised if she had of said anything different about dhea. It's very powerful stuff and I'm reducing my dosage as the effects are just too noticeable now. 

I am excited to hear about the herbs and how you get on with them. I want to know everything :)

Finally I was sorry to read about your holiday. Hardly the sort of action that would increase staff loyalty. Very very bad practice in light of the hours you have put in. Briss I hope you have a lazy day tomorrow and don't give work any thought. Hope the sun shines for you :flower:


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## shiseru

Negative beta so sad...


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## Blythe

shiseru said:


> Negative beta so sad...

I'm so so sorry :hugs:


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## Briss

Shiseru, I am so very sorry. what is the next step for you? are you going to carry on naturally or do another assisted cycle? 

I sort of gave up on TTC now, I mean I will continue temping OPK BD etc but I will try not to worry and hope because with hubby's numbers it's just useless. we have got to move to assisted. went for running today, would not normally do that in TWW. I do not think we can start IUI?IVF before fall so just going to relax about TTC until then. 

My body is so attached to fat it would not give it up so easily it seems, for almost a week I have not lost anything and today my weight is slightly up :( I guess what is happening is that my metabolic rate slowed cos I did not do any exercise and my body learnt to live on less without losing any weight. I will be trying to do more exercise to boost my metabolic rate because I cant eat less that I do now, I literally eat a few pieces of fruit and veg and a tiny piece of meat or cheese ...cant live on this for long 

Blythe, I finally got my herbs! it's so exciting, never seen anything like this and so smelly. once I have a bit more time I will write a proper report :)


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## alison29

So sorry Shiseru.

BRiss if it is only the alchohol the next test is bound to be better. I am glad you are still eating though because you are right the body will hold on to fat if in starvation mode but it sounds like you are eating enough.

Blythe I would lower the dhea too. I don't know about that supplement if it is causing bad symptoms maybe it is doing more harm then good. I had dh on it for a little while and he was a hormonal bitch omg.

let me see if the chart uploaded here


----------



## alison29

Great you can link into my wacko chart from the url. 
I am on cd 9. Start opks tomorrow.
Briss: You ovulated on cd 10 do the FS think that is too early?


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## Briss

Just got my new raw herbs, they look fascinating (see the picture). I tried sorting them into categories. interestingly I have identified 10 varieties but the doc only send me 7 names:

Baishaoyo
Chaihu
Danggui
Gancao
Mudanpi
Shanzhizu
Xiakucao

not all of them were on her original list but maybe she changed her prescription after she's looked at my blood tests. 

Cooking them is tricky I must say, first of all I had to buy a new cooking pot because you cant use a normal one. My choices were:

Cooking Pot: Medium sized such as Arcoflam (also known as Pyroflam in Europe and Asia and under the name CorningWare StoveTop in the Western Hemisphere and the UK), Le Creuset cast iron, casserole, ceramic, or Pyrex. Please do not use an aluminium or metal saucepan.

I got Le Creuset cast iron - heavy and expensive stuff. 

Secondly, it took me about 3 hours to prepare the first portion. I had to soak the herbs first then boil them then leave them in the oven for an hour and now I am finally drinking them. nasty stuff :) no idea how I will manage during the working week. I can soak them overnight but boiling and cooking will take at least 1.5 hours every morning. 

These raw herbs should only be taken on full stomach (unlike powder)
 



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## Briss

Alison, I think I O on CD11, FF is playing up again. but even then it's quite early. my FS is not bothered but Dr Z identified my first half of the cycle is where the problem is, temp is a bit too high and O is a bit too early. hopefully her herbs will help with this. 

unfortunately i cant see your chart, I probably need to register to be able to see it


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## gingmg

Hi ladies-
Haven't posted here before. Started acupuncture a few weeks ago. Going to try clomid (I think) for the first time soon. Was wondering if anyone takes baby aspirin? I'm posting here because I saw you ladies talking about clots during AF, which I always thought was normal, until I started going to acupuncture and she seemed concerned about it. I'm wondering if the baby aspirin will help flush out clots and then build a healthy lining?


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## Briss

gingmg, I have not tried aspirin but after acu my clots got better, I have very little clots now.


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## Blythe

alison29 said:


> Great you can link into my wacko chart from the url.
> I am on cd 9. Start opks tomorrow.
> Briss: You ovulated on cd 10 do the FS think that is too early?

Hi alison

it says i am not authorised to look at it....perhaps check settings for access permissions? im desperate to have a good nose :)


----------



## Blythe

Briss said:


> Just got my new raw herbs, they look fascinating (see the picture). I tried sorting them into categories. interestingly I have identified 10 varieties but the doc only send me 7 names:
> 
> Baishaoyo
> Chaihu
> Danggui
> Gancao
> Mudanpi
> Shanzhizu
> Xiakucao
> 
> not all of them were on her original list but maybe she changed her prescription after she's looked at my blood tests.
> 
> Cooking them is tricky I must say, first of all I had to buy a new cooking pot because you cant use a normal one. My choices were:
> 
> Cooking Pot: Medium sized such as Arcoflam (also known as Pyroflam in Europe and Asia and under the name CorningWare StoveTop in the Western Hemisphere and the UK), Le Creuset cast iron, casserole, ceramic, or Pyrex. Please do not use an aluminium or metal saucepan.
> 
> I got Le Creuset cast iron - heavy and expensive stuff.
> 
> Secondly, it took me about 3 hours to prepare the first portion. I had to soak the herbs first then boil them then leave them in the oven for an hour and now I am finally drinking them. nasty stuff :) no idea how I will manage during the working week. I can soak them overnight but boiling and cooking will take at least 1.5 hours every morning.
> 
> These raw herbs should only be taken on full stomach (unlike powder)

oooo wonderful :) how very exciting....wowzer lots of prep involved. Im sure you will work out a nice little routine. Im excited to see how you feel after a couple of weeks on these and the effect it has on your cycle. :)


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## Blythe

Briss said:


> Shiseru, I am so very sorry. what is the next step for you? are you going to carry on naturally or do another assisted cycle?
> 
> I sort of gave up on TTC now, I mean I will continue temping OPK BD etc but I will try not to worry and hope because with hubby's numbers it's just useless. we have got to move to assisted. went for running today, would not normally do that in TWW. I do not think we can start IUI?IVF before fall so just going to relax about TTC until then.
> 
> My body is so attached to fat it would not give it up so easily it seems, for almost a week I have not lost anything and today my weight is slightly up :( I guess what is happening is that my metabolic rate slowed cos I did not do any exercise and my body learnt to live on less without losing any weight. I will be trying to do more exercise to boost my metabolic rate because I cant eat less that I do now, I literally eat a few pieces of fruit and veg and a tiny piece of meat or cheese ...cant live on this for long
> 
> Blythe, I finally got my herbs! it's so exciting, never seen anything like this and so smelly. once I have a bit more time I will write a proper report :)

i know exactly what you mean about giving up TTC...i started to get AF a bit today and i really could not give a hoot. since deciding upon assisted conception i have felt almost divorced from the obsessing etc...it feels like a relief. My intention is to put it off until autumn but hopefully get my consultation in during summer.

i have decided to join a local slimming club...this may seem a little extreme but i did it before and it worked plus its an exercise club too....im joining on tues and i intend to lose at least a stone.


----------



## Blythe

Briss said:


> Just got my new raw herbs, they look fascinating (see the picture). I tried sorting them into categories. interestingly I have identified 10 varieties but the doc only send me 7 names:
> 
> Baishaoyo
> Chaihu
> Danggui
> Gancao
> Mudanpi
> Shanzhizu
> Xiakucao
> 
> not all of them were on her original list but maybe she changed her prescription after she's looked at my blood tests.
> 
> Cooking them is tricky I must say, first of all I had to buy a new cooking pot because you cant use a normal one. My choices were:
> 
> Cooking Pot: Medium sized such as Arcoflam (also known as Pyroflam in Europe and Asia and under the name CorningWare StoveTop in the Western Hemisphere and the UK), Le Creuset cast iron, casserole, ceramic, or Pyrex. Please do not use an aluminium or metal saucepan.
> 
> I got Le Creuset cast iron - heavy and expensive stuff.
> 
> Secondly, it took me about 3 hours to prepare the first portion. I had to soak the herbs first then boil them then leave them in the oven for an hour and now I am finally drinking them. nasty stuff :) no idea how I will manage during the working week. I can soak them overnight but boiling and cooking will take at least 1.5 hours every morning.
> 
> These raw herbs should only be taken on full stomach (unlike powder)

PS - is that lot for a whole 2 weeks? if so how do you pick out herbs for the day?


----------



## Blythe

gingmg said:


> Hi ladies-
> Haven't posted here before. Started acupuncture a few weeks ago. Going to try clomid (I think) for the first time soon. Was wondering if anyone takes baby aspirin? I'm posting here because I saw you ladies talking about clots during AF, which I always thought was normal, until I started going to acupuncture and she seemed concerned about it. I'm wondering if the baby aspirin will help flush out clots and then build a healthy lining?

i tried aspirin although just from ovulation onwards...it helps thin out blood and build lining apparently. i haven't bothered with it for a couple of months though. i still have little clots but i believe they are a completely normal part of my cycle. the larger ones i have not had for a long time and i think acu definitely helps with that.


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## alison29

Briss said:


> Alison, I think I O on CD11, FF is playing up again. but even then it's quite early. my FS is not bothered but Dr Z identified my first half of the cycle is where the problem is, temp is a bit too high and O is a bit too early. hopefully her herbs will help with this.
> 
> unfortunately i cant see your chart, I probably need to register to be able to see it

ugh i am a tard...Not too much to see right now anyway. 

Those herbs look really promising. I have faith in Dr Z


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## alison29

gingmg said:


> Hi ladies-
> Haven't posted here before. Started acupuncture a few weeks ago. Going to try clomid (I think) for the first time soon. Was wondering if anyone takes baby aspirin? I'm posting here because I saw you ladies talking about clots during AF, which I always thought was normal, until I started going to acupuncture and she seemed concerned about it. I'm wondering if the baby aspirin will help flush out clots and then build a healthy lining?

I don't know. it can't hurt to take it and keep us posted. I took it for a while too.


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## alison29

I will let you know when i get permitting access for you guys. sorry,I am a techo tard. 

Maybe i will take the rest of my baby aspirin (it feel out of the bottle into my desk at work) for this cycle what the h-ll.


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## alison29

ok switched to all public access and trying to get it to add to my signature


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## Briss

Alison, I can see it now!

Blythe, it's just for one day. I was shocked when she handed a huge bag to me with 14 smaller ones: one for each day so i do not need to sort them out. I checked their proper names and actually most of them were on my previous doc's list. the last two herbs are new.


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## Briss

got new spots this morning on my chin and forehead :( a bit disappointed cos I think it's the herbs :( on the other hand I feel a little bit like a witch cooking these weird looking herbs :) I will see what's going to happen in a week and then raise this with Dr Z. My DH thinks I am wasting time cos he admitted that he is the problem and that Dr Z should be dealing with him not me. I agree but that's her method: ladies first 

Finally saw a bit of weight loss this morning! running seems to be working so will try to do more today

Blythe, I understand your wish to join a slimming club cos it's hard to do it on your own. Although I am quite lucky that I have got you, ladies! without your constant encouragement I do not think I would be able to make it this far: 3 weeks of no chocolate or bad sugars today!!! I do not think I managed to stay away from chocolate for this long in my entire life. A colleague who is trying to lose weight to qualify for IVF will be joining me on Tuesday. she suggested we go for some japanese diet but I think the only secret is to eat little and exercise. yesterday I had a small piece of chicken and fruit/veg that's all.


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## Briss

shiseru said:


> Negative beta so sad...

Shiseru, you have a very long LH and your temp is still up. maybe there is still hope it's just taking longer to implant?


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## Blythe

Briss said:


> got new spots this morning on my chin and forehead :( a bit disappointed cos I think it's the herbs :( on the other hand I feel a little bit like a witch cooking these weird looking herbs :) I will see what's going to happen in a week and then raise this with Dr Z. My DH thinks I am wasting time cos he admitted that he is the problem and that Dr Z should be dealing with him not me. I agree but that's her method: ladies first
> 
> Finally saw a bit of weight loss this morning! running seems to be working so will try to do more today
> 
> Blythe, I understand your wish to join a slimming club cos it's hard to do it on your own. Although I am quite lucky that I have got you, ladies! without your constant encouragement I do not think I would be able to make it this far: 3 weeks of no chocolate or bad sugars today!!! I do not think I managed to stay away from chocolate for this long in my entire life. A colleague who is trying to lose weight to qualify for IVF will be joining me on Tuesday. she suggested we go for some japanese diet but I think the only secret is to eat little and exercise. yesterday I had a small piece of chicken and fruit/veg that's all.



maybe dr z thinks girls take longer than boys...once you are sorted she can probably sort the sperm out in a month-6 weeks...

you have done so incredibly well to stay away from rubbish food.....i am seriously impressed with your will power :) I wish i could do the same...i hope this slimming club idea works as i am so ready to tackle my eating habits and weight and i really think that will help with my fertility too [although vanity is the driving force].


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## gingmg

Hi Ladies, 
Just got back from acupuncture. Does your acupuncturist burn you? She takes some kind of incense stick and it feels like she is burning my abdomen and lower back with it. I've asked before what it's for, but can barely understand her, and she's not much for explaining. I've just let it go, and let her do her thing, but was wondering if anyone else has this done and knows what it's for?
g


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## Briss

gignmg, I think this is Moxibustion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moxibustion, it can be used as a box or just as a small ball that they place on top of a needle and burn it. I had that before and I also have this box at home with the sticks but their smell is so strong that I do not use them very often. I think the main purpose is to warm the relevant parts of the body. 

Blythe, I really do not think you can turn 1 mil sperm count with only accessional motility into good quality sperm in 6 weeks. It's more likely that she cant really do much in our situation. but I will continue to ask cos I do not think I will do more 1-2 months myself - just so expensive! she booked me for acu in 2 weeks right after I finish herbs and I was told that once every two weeks should be sufficient. 

apparently I respond better to negative motivation :( when I was a little happier and hopeful I really needed something sweet to make me feel better when I am down. These days I am just so deeply depressed and hopeless that no amount of chocolate is going to change anything. not even sure how to explain this but in some sort of weird masochistic way it's almost like I am glad and it feels right when I feel hungry or deprived of chocolate which I crave terribly almost every day because that's almost the sort of pain I feel inside because I cant have a child (I do not actually feel it because it's not physical pain it's all in my head). sorry I do not think I can explain it better, I am not even sure I understand it myself. I just know there is no way I would be able to go through this if things were a little better. I guess accepting IVF is harder than I thought


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## gingmg

Thanks Briss! That is exactly what it was, and I have 3 burns on my abdomen because of it! I'll let her do anything if she thinks it will help.
I'm sorry you are going through a tough time. 
((((((((((Big huggs)))))))))))


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## Briss

gingmg, I do not think you are supposed to get burns. when doc was explaining to me how to use the box at home she warned me not to get it too close to the body so i do not get burns! particularly abdominal area, I was told not to come near it. maybe you could ask your doc about it?


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## Blythe

Briss said:


> gignmg, I think this is Moxibustion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moxibustion, it can be used as a box or just as a small ball that they place on top of a needle and burn it. I had that before and I also have this box at home with the sticks but their smell is so strong that I do not use them very often. I think the main purpose is to warm the relevant parts of the body.
> 
> Blythe, I really do not think you can turn 1 mil sperm count with only accessional motility into good quality sperm in 6 weeks. It's more likely that she cant really do much in our situation. but I will continue to ask cos I do not think I will do more 1-2 months myself - just so expensive! she booked me for acu in 2 weeks right after I finish herbs and I was told that once every two weeks should be sufficient.
> 
> apparently I respond better to negative motivation :( when I was a little happier and hopeful I really needed something sweet to make me feel better when I am down. These days I am just so deeply depressed and hopeless that no amount of chocolate is going to change anything. not even sure how to explain this but in some sort of weird masochistic way it's almost like I am glad and it feels right when I feel hungry or deprived of chocolate which I crave terribly almost every day because that's almost the sort of pain I feel inside because I cant have a child (I do not actually feel it because it's not physical pain it's all in my head). sorry I do not think I can explain it better, I am not even sure I understand it myself. I just know there is no way I would be able to go through this if things were a little better. I guess accepting IVF is harder than I thought


ok - maybe thats me being optimistic re sperm.

have sunk to new low...MIL here this weekend and we were due to go out tonight for my birthday. i have found nothing that fits so now DH has gone out as planned minus me. i cannot even pretend to be happy.


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## Briss

Oh Blythe, I am sorry though I know how it feels, I hate parties (it's relatively new) cos nothing looks good on me and looking good is important for my confidence. I just cant enjoy myself when I am not happy with my look. but it's your birthday! I am sure your DH really wants you there


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## Blythe

Thank you briss.


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## Briss

don't even get me started on my MIL, it's a piece of work! my DH never told her we were going out (for over 6 years!) i mean it was not difficult she lives abroad but still. he introduced me to her only after we were married! what a terrible thing, I thought. but when I met her it became clear that if he introduced me earlier we would not have got married at all. every time she comes my DH and I end up arguing for weeks and weeks after she's gone. he is afraid to be with her on his own because she tells him really awful things about me and over time it kind of sinks in... so we argue. the first time she saw me she hinted that it would be difficult for us to have children :( i really want to know what she was getting at but neither me nor DH wants to ask

riverboat cruise on Thames sounds like fun! I hope you will have great time! 

I am checking out your rosemary Conley club's website. looks very interesting. I think what I am doing is probably too hard core. I ate banana for breakfast and then nothing (except for tea) until 6 pm when I had a cup of chicken stock, tiny piece of chicken and a plate of greek salad - that's a lot compared to what I eat these days. I felt SO full it's unpleasant. I would really like a piece of chocolate now but instead I am drinking the nasty herbs. I did 30 min aerobics and 20 min weight lifting and walked for a few hours.


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## Blythe

Briss - i wonder what on earth your MIL meant by the 'children' comment....im sorry to hear you have had struggles with your MIL over the years. it sounds like a good thing that she lives overseas....its one thing giving your opinion and quite another just being plain rude....i hope when im a proper grown up i wont be like my MIL.

my DH went out this morning swimming and we were not getting on at all....so they have all gone out on the riverboat cruise and i am in the house alone....it sounds wrong but i am quite happy with this situation. Im going to go shopping and treat myself :)

i have just had a 3 egg omelette and although i have already had 3 teas/coffees [with sugar and milk] i am determined the rest of the day will be healthy. Im still waiting for AF to turn up and know i will feel better once it does....will obviously have to start talking to DH around ovulation time although feel like giving him a wide berth for a few weeks right now.


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## Briss

I have no idea what my MIL meant by the 'children' comment, it's possible she knows something about my DH's childhood that can affect us but it it's also possible that she has her fears and is trying to predict the worst, in any case it's working... :( she wants to visit us in May, not looking forward to that. 

I am sorry you did not go to the riverboat cruise but then sometimes it's much better just to be left alone

I've been doing some calculations this morning and analysing the averages of my weight loss and it does not look that great actually. I am losing weight but very slowly about 750 grams a week. I am not going to reach my previous weight by the end of May so decided to continue through June

Blythe, 3 egg omelette sounds like a good start to dieting! Welcome to my club :)


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## shiseru

Briss said:


> shiseru said:
> 
> 
> Negative beta so sad...
> 
> Shiseru, you have a very long LH and your temp is still up. maybe there is still hope it's just taking longer to implant?Click to expand...

Though not posting but i do follow the thread closely.

I think it's the evil progesterone keeping my af away. Bummer, beta is 1.5 and hpt negative so definitely not pregnant and no af (boo)

I told my gynae that we would have one more round of IUI followed by IVF. She said for IVF she is going to put me on growth hormones which increase the quality of the eggs. However I need to go for a breast examination first. She checked my boobs and said I have lumpy breast (my left side) while she did say it's not ideal to check now because of premenstrual period, but damn her comments got me worried!


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## Briss

shiseru, I am sure it's nothing to worry about. I have small cysts in my breasts, for years now. I was told not to do any breast examination after O because it just does not show a true picture and may get people worried because of what they may see while it's all goes away once your period starts. it's good that your doc is so thorough and prepares you for IVF. I hope you wont need it though. not good that progesterone is still playing games with your cycle, although you seem to have stopped it like 10 days ago. 

forgot to drink my herbs last night :( but actually it helped me figure out my routine because there is no way I will be able to spend 1.5 hours in the morning cooking them. decided I will cook them in the evening when I get home from work, drink the first half then and leave the second half for the next morning. In the morning I will put the new lot soaking so I can cook them in the evening. this looks doable. 

re weight, there has been no change for over a week now. I should probably be doing exercises every day but I am so unfit - 30 min with J fonda and my muscles are hurting for the next few days so I can barely walk :( 

Finally hubby agreed to go to a urologist, we will have to go privately as FS would not refer us. a lady on B&B recommended a really great doc, I checked his reviews and he seems to be number one in the UK particularly for azoospermia. I am so hoping we could get some answers.


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## Briss

I was reading some of the reviews on Dr Zhai - not promising at all https://www.fertilityfriends.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=15737.40


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## notrustyyet

BRISS Yeah, still stalking this thread....RE exercise: One form of exercise that I discovered that is really FUN AND helps fertility (in Inconcievable, Julia indichova jumped rope 300x/day as prescribed by her TCM), but I have bad knees, so jumping rope not too fun. 

I bought a rebounder, 1st one had springs, I think Needak?, and it was supposed to be good, but ended up hurting my knees/lower back, so i gave away. Then I found one with a really soft bounce, uses bungie cords instead of springs ( https://www.bellicon-usa.com/bellicon-shop/bellicon-172.html ) and that turned out to be the only piece of exercise equipment I stuck with because seriously it was SO enjoyable. It's also great for your lymphatic system, Google it....Put on headphones and get busy. Even just 15 minutes, felt great after, no knee pain. It's expensive, but my DD uses too esp in winter when kids don't go out for recess and they are having pent up energy. It's gotten regular use for a couple years so far, so it's been worth it.


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## Briss

Nottrusty, thank you, looks like fun but a bit expensive. 

Blythe, your temp looks good and no spotting!! fingers crossed

we went to a Chinese restaurant last night and although I just had some meat with veg, am back to square one this morning. weight loss is no joke, beginning to doubt if it's even possible for me. was craving ice cream yesterday so bad. I think I am ready for some detox. found a 3 day detox programme with juices, veg broth and something totally weird - Psyllium Husk Powder & Bentonite Clay. apparently this mixture attracts toxins and drags them out. they suggest to start on Friday so you are done by Monday morning. Planning to do it next week.


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## Blythe

Briss -it is strange that your weight has not gone down anymore as you are eating so little. I start my group tonight and feel excited about it....they say about losing a stone in 7 weeks which would be amazing. 

I have been expecting AF since sat really...there was a bit of spotting a few days back and I've had on and off AF cramping. I'm not sure what is causing the delay but I doubt very much it is anything good. I had a BFN the other day but you never know. If she does not come by tomorrow lunchtime I will test. This is my first cycle minus the powdered herbs and the Pmt has been much more pronounced. 

I read those dr z reviews although I have read many more positive ones on the past. There is no denying she is a savy business woman and I would rather she was doing the Acu treatments given the costs involved. I am just really interested in the differences you feel between the powdered and raw herbs and how it goes over the next few weeks. Her unique selling point is her vast experience of concocting herbal prescriptions to help make you more fertile. Now you have that info once you are happy it is making positive changes you can find a cheaper Chinese pharmacy. Mind you a year with her prescriptions is still cheaper than a round of IVF at some private clinics in London. I worked it out around 7-8k mark. Does that sound right?

I have not rebooked at Acu place yet as feel like having a good couple of weeks off. As soon as AF starts I will be having 3x40g black cohosh per day as NoTrusty did for first 12 days of cycle. Hope it won't screw it up. 

Shiseru - my boobs change quite slit throughout the month and sometimes feel very lumpy. I do hope you get the reassurance you need soon :hugs:


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## Briss

Blythe, I am so hoping it's good news!! so exciting about you joining a slimming club, let us know how the meeting goes.

I am getting used to raw herbs. it takes more time and the taste is quite bad but my two spots are disappearing and there is no new ones &#8211; good sign. her herbs/acu come to around 7,000 a year + 4,000 for DH but there is no way I can stick with her for so long. I will see how I feel after a month and if I see improvement I may stay for another month. Hubby tasted my herbs and found them nice! I take it that he might not completely oppose the idea of Chinese medicine and maybe her herbs can improve his sperm. 

I really do not understand what's going on with my weight. I thought exercises would boost my metabolic rate and eating little should make me lose weight faster but something is not right. Once I get AF I will start my detox, cant wait actually, I am so sure it will help me feel better.


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## Blythe

having typed out my message earlier...i went to the loo and AF had arrived. I had been having those insane little fantasies during the morning about coming home and getting a BFP...but alas....

im not at all upset though and quite excited about my class tonight and getting stuck into a diet and exercise programme...im also a bit excited about these black cohosh tablets....


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## Briss

Blythe, I am very sorry about AF, it looked so promising, particularly no spotting. at least you can now start slimming down properly and who knows this might be what it takes to get your BFP this cycle. 

afm, still hungry, very very hungry. started counting calories trying to figure out where I am going wrong. it might be honey I can have a few spoons with my tea in the evening...

today so far: 700 calories 
Large banana: 121
Carrots: 170
Miso Soup with Seaweed by Pret a Manger: 75
6 prunes: 121
50 raisins: 78
Apple: 116

Evening: 300
Honey 1 tbs: 64
Cabbage (half): 145
Carrot large: 30


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## Blythe

No wonder you are starving.....its so strange that the weight is not falling off....i have just been to sainsburys and brought special k, philadelphia light, rice-cakes, slim a soup.....intend to eat that, fruit and veg. The class was great....weighed in then hanging around a bit whilst others weighed in then a really cool 80s style exercise class....i was reAlly jumping around and sweating and i felt great. Ive been so scared of exercise but not now!!

What detox are you thinking of...a juice one?


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## Briss

Blythe, that's great, your club sounds fun. how often are you going to go? what about dieting, do they tell you how much you are supposed to eat? also, I am not sure about special k, philadelphia light, rice-cakes &#8211; are these even allowed while dieting? 

still no weight loss, I am so puzzled and disappointed! a colleague said that it might be something like water retention, no idea. I was hoping that losing weight will give me something positive, so far just pure suffering and deprivation and minimal positive changes. felt like giving up this morning and going for coffee with a donut &#8230; 

One of my fertility books has this 3 day detox where you drink Bentonite Clay and Psyllium Husk 2-3 times a day; fruit juices 3 times a day; veg broth in the evening and they also suggest enema but that's a bit too much for me. I asked for Monday-Tuesday off next week so may try it then.


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## Briss

actually, not sure if I count calories right but even if I almost starve myself I still manage somehow to consume 1,200 calories!

7 May: 1,190 calories 
Large banana: 120
Carrots: 170
Miso Soup with Seaweed by Pret a Manger: 75
6 prunes: 120
50 raisins: 80
Apple: 120
Pear: 100
Honey 1 tbs: 60
Cabbage (half): 145
Carrot large: 30
Olive Oil (tbs): 120
cucumber (half): 30
tomatoes (100 gram): 20


It just gets more depressing, apparently in order to lose weight I have to consume much less calories than I thought:

you need 1656 Calories/day to maintain your weight
you need 1156 Calories/day to lose 0.5 kg per week
you need 656 Calories/day to lose 1 kg per week


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## Blythe

im really staggered that this is what we need to do in order to loose weight and not sure how i will manage to restrict myself to that amount. Of course when i was younger it was so much easier to loose weight but i do struggle now.

im feeling very motivated...today i had

black coffee no sugar
various herbal teas
2 x bananas
1 x yogurt
handful of raspberries
slim a soup
skimmed milk and bowl of special k

tonight i will have some rice cakes and Philadelphia
either salad or loads of veg

for the first two weeks of this diet i am on calories are restricted to 1200 per day and a sample menu looks like this:

BF - small glass unsweetened fruit juice and special k with milk and 1 tsp of sugar OR 2 well grilled rashers of lean bacon with 1 egg [poached or dry fried] and 1 x 200 g can of tomatoes

mid morning snack - 90g blueberries

lunch - low cal soup with 1 x wholegrain roll [small] plus 100g fresh fruit salad

mid-afternoon snack - ryvita with 20g extra light soft cheese with 2 x cherry tomatoes

dinner - chicken and chilli stir fry with 40g dry weight boiled basmati rice OR the stir fry with no rice but i mini meringue topped with mullerlight yogurt


each day you are given a fitness challenge such as walk for 15 mins and do 8 ab curls 

When i joined they gave me some little measuring pots for making sure i don't have too much rice or special k - god forbid!!

i am very excited about getting my weight down to pre 30 y/o levels which i am determined to do!!


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## Briss

Blythe, that's very exciting and such a structured approach! I am sure you will do very well.

I joined https://www.fatsecret.co.uk it's online and free. I add my food and they tell me calories etc, I can also enter exercises etc they put me on 1,300 calories a day but I already know that anything over 1,000 and I wont lose any. I had steak for lunch so will have to go without dinner&#8230;

I had so far:

Pink Lady Apples 72 
Banana 140
Honey 64
Beef Steak 386
Mixed Peppers 15
Cherry Tomatoes 11
Cucumber 8
Apricots 34

I am so lazy with exercises, really need to get myself moving everyday. This is probably my main issue in not losing any weight, just not enough exercise


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## Briss

It's amazing after eating a steak yesterday I finally saw a tiny positive change in my weight this morning!! so excited. I also made myself do 30 min of aerobics instead of dinner. I really like this website cos it helped me see that I only eat carbohydrate and fat, there was so little protein in my diet. I will try to eat something meaty/fishy for lunch and almost nothing for dinner like yesterday. 

My Dh and I finally agreed to go on a city break this weekend. I've taken 2 days off and we are going to Barcelona. I cant wait! I already decided that I am going to put my diet on hold for these 4 days and eat chocolate, coffee and food in general! but then the weekend after I will do detox and clear my sins&#8230; after all this Saturday is 4 weeks of no bad sugars, I definitely deserve a treat. Have to say that my cravings are not getting any better, I am thinking of chocolate constantly. just realised that it will be very hard to do herbs in Barcelona&#8230;will have to skip a few days


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## Blythe

You certainly do deserve a nice break and done treats too. Well done on the weight loss :) oh how exciting to get away to Barcelona. I hope you have a really lovely time. 

I've been hungry all morning....the Special K is just not cutting it! But I've been drinking loads of water and tea to try and work through the hunger. I've just had lunch and still excited about getting this weight off. I'm going to a 40th tomorrow evening and will stick to vodka!


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## Briss

I am so looking forward to this trip, last time we got away was 4 days in Venice almost a year ago (I was ovulating and had this dream in my head that we should definitely conceive in Venice&#8230;oh well), no proper holidays since then. I do feel exhausted and my motivation is non existent. 

had a beef burger for lunch with no bread/cheese just salad. it was nice but half hour later I was struggling &#8211; badly wanted some chocolate! now having tea with 10 raisings! yes, I am now counting them. I actually noticed that I started drinking less tea, for the first 3 weeks that was my main food really but I feel like I cant take it any more. 

one shot of vodka is 60-65 calories! but you would need some juice for vodka and that's going to be a lot of additional calories so may be wine? red wine &#8211; 150 ml 130 calories. 

I am so glad no one shares their baby's pictures with me at work, I have enough of this on facebook. but then how would they know this is upsetting? unless you have gone through what we are going through there is no way you can imagine that baby pictures can be a reason to be depressed. once I am pregnant I am going to be quiet on the topic unless I am asked. and you are so right, B&B is the only place I can go to feel understood, accepted and generally not alone in my misery. I am also really glad I refocused myself into dieting, I am now almost looking forward to AF so I could start my Detox


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## gingmg

just wanted to pop back in to update..... after only 1 month of acupuncture finally very few clots this flow!!! hoping it means I'm moving in the right direction.....

my fertility clinic said not to take the baby aspirin... said would only help if i have a particular clotting disorder, and otherwise will potentially interfere with O... don't want that.

Oh my Barcelona, sounds absolutely heavenly. Have fun!


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## Briss

gingmg, great news re clots! and really fast result, your acu doc must be very good. What points does he needle? I am still on raw herbs, this morning was in a hurry and had them on an empty stomach. do not feel that great. Looking forward to my first acu session at Dr Zhai's clinic next Friday. 

Lost some more weight this morning!! I cant believe this, after eating that burger and not doing any exercises I was so sure I will put some of it back on but no, I've lost some! I think it's probably that fruit/veg does not work for me that well cos I end up just eating carbohydrates but when I add meat (but I have to skip dinners to stay within 1,000 daily calorie intake) somehow I end up losing weight. I still do not understand how this works but I am just so happy, finally some improvement. It's a shame I will have to ruin it in Barcelona, there is no way I can be hungry while trying to have fun and relax but I will try not to go overboard with food.


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## Blythe

gingmg said:


> just wanted to pop back in to update..... after only 1 month of acupuncture finally very few clots this flow!!! hoping it means I'm moving in the right direction.....
> 
> my fertility clinic said not to take the baby aspirin... said would only help if i have a particular clotting disorder, and otherwise will potentially interfere with O... don't want that.
> 
> Oh my Barcelona, sounds absolutely heavenly. Have fun!

I'm always happy to hear stories about Acu making positive changes to someone. I really hope it results in a bfp for you :)


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## Blythe

Briss said:


> gingmg, great news re clots! and really fast result, your acu doc must be very good. What points does he needle? I am still on raw herbs, this morning was in a hurry and had them on an empty stomach. do not feel that great. Looking forward to my first acu session at Dr Zhai's clinic next Friday.
> 
> Lost some more weight this morning!! I cant believe this, after eating that burger and not doing any exercises I was so sure I will put some of it back on but no, I've lost some! I think it's probably that fruit/veg does not work for me that well cos I end up just eating carbohydrates but when I add meat (but I have to skip dinners to stay within 1,000 daily calorie intake) somehow I end up losing weight. I still do not understand how this works but I am just so happy, finally some improvement. It's a shame I will have to ruin it in Barcelona, there is no way I can be hungry while trying to have fun and relax but I will try not to go overboard with food.


Well done! Great news :) I too have been introducing some protein. After reading one of your previous posts I brought some fish last night and just had some chicken now. I'm feeling good but still working through the hunger but very determined to stick with it.

Have a wonderful weekend away :)


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## Briss

Blythe, thank you. you too have a lovely weekend!

I also had fish today. 4 weeks of dieting and I still feel hungry most of the day, when I eat next to nothing I actually feel less hungry. the hardest part is to eat little because I feel hungry within an hour after meals. will be skipping dinner today as well.


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## gingmg

Briss- Not sure what points she does, she does some of the same things each time, some different, depending on where it's sensitive when she pushes around. She specializes in fertility, so I just let her do her thing and use it as an hour to rest and relax. I don't ask a whole lot of questions. She always does my abdomen, lower back, feet, ears, and forehead, and sometimes points in my legs, upper back and ovary areas. (some of those points are for my anxiety, some fertility). And she always does that burning thing. Sometimes I think she is just warming the needle and it only feels warm not hot, other times she actually burns me (like last week, I have 3 tiny blisters!!) I don't mind though, she could break out in full song and dance around with chickens for all I care if it will help me have baby :)


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## gingmg

Blythe,
Thanks.


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## AGspeech

Well, I haven't conceived yet...but I have been doing Acupunture for about 3-4 months now. If anything right now, I am more relaxed... which is great! I am also taking herbs, I take it 3 times a day. But what she has helped with, is eczema. I developed it recently and she literally cured it with chinese herbs. WOW!! thank goodness. I have been TTC for almost 2 years now and have had 1 miscarriage. We are now looking into infertility and have an appointment next month. She has told me that if we do fertility, we then schedule acupunture with treatments. I am not giving up acupunture, it is too relaxing and gives me "ME" time. Plus it is nice to know that I have someone else "helping" me to conceive.


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## Blythe

Hi agspeech

Thats great the herbs have helped already. Have they resulted in any changes to your cycle? Also are you taking raw herbs, powder or pills?


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## Blythe

I am on day 7 of taking black cohosh (3 x 40mg per day) and i am still spotting and i can feel my ovaries. I will start opks weds (cd 9) and hope i at least ovulate this cycle and have not messed things up! My temps are also still raised for this point in my cycle.

I am going to my second rosemary conley class tues evening and hoping to have lost some weight :)

Shiseru - hope you are ok? I see AF came at last. Are you trying iui again this cycle?

Briss - how was Barcelona? Did you both have a good time? It was very grey and miserable in London :(


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## shiseru

Hi ladies

I hope all is well.

My af is weird this cycle, probably due to the progesterone in my body, it was not very heavy. I took femara on the 2nd day (from my own judgement, i don't even know if that was my 2nd day or what) and will be going for a scan this Friday. I started acupuncture again.

I hope this time it does magic, if not i have plans to proceed to ivf, My gynae suspect i got lousy eggs so she said she wants to put me on growth hormones and high stim for ivf. She wants to make the 1st cycle the best because results for 2nd round is usually not ideal, especially i have very low amh. i came across a few articles and forums and research and several women who used it (Saizen) and they had really fantastic results, especially those who were well over 40.


----------



## Briss

Blythe, black cohosh does not sound that great. are you still spotting? I do not think it will affect your ovulation though.

Barcelona was great but i thought it would be much warmer, I had to wear jumper and jacket all the time. My diet is completely ruined, I gained 2 kg cos I could not stop myself having cappuccinos and cakes every 2-3 hours&#8230; getting on average 2,400 calories a day. also TMI my stomach stopped working completely from all this food and I did not go to the toilet since Friday!!! I have no idea what's going on, never had that before. had prunes today but they did not help at all. am definitely doing detox this weekend but just scared that I might have damaged my otherwise clockwise system.

Expecting AF tomorrow or Friday, feel totally depressed about everything. being away made me take a moment and look at my life from the outside and I did not like what I saw. I do no not what to do but I feel I need to make some changes, maybe quit my job that drains me completely and find a new husband&#8230; I could barely find energy and will to get up this morning and force myself to work. 

I did not take herbs for 4 days so will move my acu for next week so I could finish them before taking new ones


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## Blythe

Briss said:


> Blythe, black cohosh does not sound that great. are you still spotting? I do not think it will affect your ovulation though.
> 
> Barcelona was great but i thought it would be much warmer, I had to wear jumper and jacket all the time. My diet is completely ruined, I gained 2 kg cos I could not stop myself having cappuccinos and cakes every 2-3 hours getting on average 2,400 calories a day. also TMI my stomach stopped working completely from all this food and I did not go to the toilet since Friday!!! I have no idea what's going on, never had that before. had prunes today but they did not help at all. am definitely doing detox this weekend but just scared that I might have damaged my otherwise clockwise system.
> 
> Expecting AF tomorrow or Friday, feel totally depressed about everything. being away made me take a moment and look at my life from the outside and I did not like what I saw. I do no not what to do but I feel I need to make some changes, maybe quit my job that drains me completely and find a new husband I could barely find energy and will to get up this morning and force myself to work.
> 
> I did not take herbs for 4 days so will move my acu for next week so I could finish them before taking new ones


Hi briss 

Firstly I'm sorry AF is on the way. I will be so so happy for you when I read of your BFP so I'm sorry that its not going to be this month....hold on your BFP could be just 4 short weeks away. 

Being away from our usual environment does help us with perspective...not always a bad thing. I know for the past year or two I've been holding my breath and just saving for a deposit and not going out, laughing, properly relaxing. I'm just waiting And waiting. If I could afford to take a career break I would but its difficult to get back in the game (impossible for me). 

Would you be able to negociate reduced hours in your place or is a complete change a possibility for you?

I would hold into the husband though....TTC is the toughest test you will face (I hope) and if you can get through this he's a goodun. Having said that I finish with my DH at least twice a month (yes i really am that mature!!) he tells me I'm obsessed and don't see what else is around me and he's had enough of pills and nagging!!

I hate constipation....one of my friends suffers from it badly and can go 2 weeks without going....the docs have tried most things...poor girl :(

Well my first weigh in resulted in a 2ib loss.....a lot less than I hoped for but something I suppose. I did drink lots last Friday so guess that threw it off. I'm sure you will be back on track soon enough. 

I'm back to Acu on Sunday and will book another round of appts but just go every 2 weeks to keep costs in check. 

Welcome back and I'm glad you enjoyed Barcelona. :)


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## Briss

Thank you!

reduced hours is not an option unfortunately, I would like a sabbatical for 3-4 months but that's not an option either. I was thinking as far as change of career or not working at all &#8230; but this would probably just make things worse. maybe go live aboard somewhere, meet smb new &#8211; sounds crazy I know 

My DH did not take vitamins for over a week now and had beer and wine while in Barcelona, he wants to do his test on Monday &#8211; 3 months since he officially quit beer and then go back to drinking beer&#8230; what's in there for me then? nothing to look forward to. 

TMI I finally managed to go to the toilet, prunes worked after all &#8230; but I am sure there is plenty left. cant believe I did this to myself, just could not stop with the deserts and cakes &#8211; it's so cheap in Barcelona and I wanted it all so badly. I have to say that a month of no chocolate did not do anything to my cravings, there are still there. I have not eaten anything apart from 10 prunes today and I am not even hungry! I am probably still digesting what I ate on Sunday&#8230; 

congratulations on weight loss! it's a step in the right direction. once my constipation gets better I will do another weight in &#8211; maybe it wont be as bad as what I got this morning. am back on my 1,000 calories a day but I guess today I will just have some fruit and tea to help my body alone


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## Briss

gingmg, I know what you mean. when I went for my first ever TCM session, the doc did all sorts of weird and really painful things for about 3 hours but I was holding on thinking as long as it helps me conceive I will bear anything. Still have no idea whether what she did was good or bad thing. it's really hard to tell 

agspeech, that's great that the acu and herbs are helping you relax. 3 times a day &#8211; seems a lot. It's probably quite expensive as well. Did your doc tell you what's your deficiencies/unbalances? what is it that she is trying to fix? curing eczema is a really good sign that she is doing something right. 

Shiseru, your LH last cycle was so long, was it progesterone? are you still doing acu/herbs to help the treatment alone? good luck with your scan tomorrow. 

Blythe, I agree that your temps were slightly higher than usual, do you think it's black cohosh? Hopefully, you will get your positive OPK in 1-2 days. It's very funny that you "finish with your DH at least twice a month" &#8211; I have the same but more often than that. My Dh says he is tired of living in constant fear of me leaving him. the solution is very simple just do not do things that upset me, why is this so hard for him is beyond me. I think doing acu every 2 weeks is fine, at least that's how often they do it at Dr Zhai's.

had some more beef today. I think I know now how to lose weight so I will stick to a small piece of meat/fish at lunch and little bit of fruit and veg throughout the day, skipping dinner so I could stay within 1,000 calories but I will definitely be having small pieces of chocolate from time to time. that whole month of no bad sugars did not really make any difference except me feeling miserable all the time. my cravings did not go away, quite the opposite. I was losing weight really well just before I went to Barcelona so I hope to go back to the same pace.

I moved my acu for Monday cos I still have 4 more days of herbs. I do not think it's going to be Dr Zhai, probably one of her assistants. Still, I am curious what points they are going to needle. I wonder if I get raw herbs again. I am quite pleased that although I do get an occasional spot or two it's nowhere near as bad as it was on my previous herbs. 

Does not look like I will be able to do FSH this cycle, AF is due today/tomorrow so Cd3 will be either Saturday or Sunday. I am not in a hurry cos I'd rather get more herbs/acu sessions in before the test hoping this would reduce my levels so we can qualify for IVF.

Hubby is doing SA on Monday, I am quite scared to know the results. He is hoping for something spectacular considering the sacrifice he made (beer!) but I do not even know what to think anymore. his last two SA were heart breaking.


----------



## Blythe

i really do think it is the Black Cohosh that is keeping my temps quite high...i expect to get my positive OPK tomorrow at some point.

i am sticking to diet and managing to work through those horrid hunger pangs...i have been drinking diet hot chocolate and its filling and quite tasty [everything is tasty when hungry though] and its only 40 calls....i mean its full of crap sweeteners and the like but im really beyond caring at the mo.

My DH has lost his job - he was told yesterday and has only been paid up until weds so everything is on hold until he sorts something else out. it has the potential to really set us back in so many ways. He works in construction but left his old company to work for this new one and its all gone belly up :( Until finances are sorted there will be no more acu for me...not that he ever chips in with the fertility stuff but i may end up having to pay the rent etc

i hope he will still be able to BD!!!


----------



## Briss

Blythe, well done on sticking to your diet!! I am embarrassed to say i am having my third piece of chocolate... it's quite small though but about 90 calories each so I am skipping fruit in favour of chocolate cos no apple can ever give as much satisfaction and pleasure as a small piece of chocolate. what is diet hot chocolate? where do you get it from?

I am very sorry about your DH's job. that's quite upsetting. My Dh was out of work for 2 years and it was absolutely terrible, he lost all his confidence and I think all his beer drinking came from this experience. The timing was also quite bad it was just before we got married and we already signed a tenancy agreement for a more expensive flat. We did not have a wedding and I had to pay for our honeymoon. Not a great start to our marriage. Somehow our troubles did not stop there it just continues from one disaster to another. But it was 2008-2009 when lots of people lost their jobs in the city. it's different now and also it might be easier to get a job in construction, demand is there I think. hopefully, it will lead to some interesting opportunities for your DH.


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## Blythe

Its just cadburys highlights and i have a jar of options too....they are really helping me stay away from high calorie rubbish. I would have caved in by now if i did not these to fall back on..

Ive eaten too much today....all good stuff but too much but i will do lots of exercise over weekend.

I wonder if you will get exactly the same herbs......how do they taste?


----------



## Briss

I think one of the reasons i was not loosing weight is because I ate too much, it sounds quite wrong considering that I was hungry all the time and only had fruit and veg but calorie wise it was more than I needed to lose weight. Once a started taking a note of everything i have and counting calories I realised that I needed to cut back on things like bananas and apples. vegetables are safer. I am hoping having chocolate wont stop me from losing weight but we will see. I now cant even imagine how I survived 4 weeks, I really cant live without this stuff. it might be an addiction... 

I am a bit disappointed that I could not hold myself in barcelona and now back to where I was 2 weeks ago but I am hoping i can lose weight quicker now cos I think I know how it works.

Af did not come today despite having cramps and headache (actually my pre AF headaches stopped while I was on previous herbs and now came back). It will come tomorrow but it means that FF got my O date right and I was wrong so we started BD a bit earlier. it's such a tricky business to get BD timing right with low sperm count. I watched the great sperm race in Barcelona (for some reason you cant watch it in the UK) and it's amazing how anyone ever gets pregnant. it's also depressing that the guy is supposed to have 250 million per ejaculate of which only about 10 reach fallopian tubes. with hubby's 1 million we just do not stand a chance. 

I do not have any energy for exercise but I am still planning to go ahead with detox. 

The herbs are a bit revolting, they are sweet but not in a nice way. i have to say i do not enjoy the experience at all. now that I know how they are supposed to look like I think I will be comfortable buying them at a cheaper place but I want to see whether she is going to change my prescription. I understand that these herbs were just supposed to clear heat so she could see my underlying condition so I guess once she sees that she will make some changes.


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## Briss

I've been reading up on problems with the follicular phase and heat in particular, found this interesting piece:

Heat in the follicular phase is commonly due to yin deficiency or stagnation of the Heart and Liver qi. Patients with fertility problems frequently experience a great deal of stress when month after month they are unable to conceive. In these cases, heat from stagnation may disturb the steady building of yin and blood, and is often seen in upward spikes in the basal body temperature. Gui Shao Di Huang Wan (Liu Wei Di Huang Wan plus Dang Gui and Bai Shao) is a very effective formula for this stage, nourishing both the yin and blood. The Heart and Liver may be addressed with additions or modifications to the formula.

https://www.jadeinstitute.com/jade/understanding-fertility.php


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## Briss

Yesterday as planned I had about 1,000 calories and half of it came from chocolate. sounds really bad but actually it is not. I had meat and veg for lunch and a piece of fruit for breakfast, nothing for dinner and the rest was just chocolate a bit less than 100 gr all together but I had it in tiny pieces whenever I felt like I cant take it anymore. this morning I saw some weight loss (not quite pre-Barcelona levels yet but getting there). I did not feel miserable yesterday so I am thinking I will continue with this weird chocolate diet and see where it goes.


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## Blythe

Briss said:


> I've been reading up on problems with the follicular phase and heat in particular, found this interesting piece:
> 
> Heat in the follicular phase is commonly due to yin deficiency or stagnation of the Heart and Liver qi. Patients with fertility problems frequently experience a great deal of stress when month after month they are unable to conceive. In these cases, heat from stagnation may disturb the steady building of yin and blood, and is often seen in upward spikes in the basal body temperature. Gui Shao Di Huang Wan (Liu Wei Di Huang Wan plus Dang Gui and Bai Shao) is a very effective formula for this stage, nourishing both the yin and blood. The Heart and Liver may be addressed with additions or modifications to the formula.
> 
> https://www.jadeinstitute.com/jade/understanding-fertility.php


Thank you for posting this.....very interesting. I don't think il do black cohosh again after this cycle as I want to see if it is that that is keeping my temps high (although dropped again today) rather than having a mini break from Acu/herbs. I'm going for Acu on sun and looking forward too it. I will check the herbal formula in this site for my follicular phase and then focus on increasing yang post ovulation. I know raspberries, walnuts and jasmine tea are good for this although I have been laying off the nuts recently as high in cals. 

Its good you have found something that is working for you re weight loss and allows you Some chocolate. I just hope a couple of months I'd focused dieting will do the trick for me then I can rejoice in my hot young looking body!!

I had an almost positive opk this am so hopefully fully positive by this evening. Got a session in this morning (when I say session I mean 4 mins bd tops!!) sessions are a distant memory for me. 

I want to get pregnant so I don't have to carry sanitary products around anymore. I was mortified yesterday on tube as I pulled out a book from my bag and 3 panty liners had stuck to it. I quickly unstuck 2 of them but unbeknown to me 1 was still flapping around on the other side of book for at least 2 minutes!! The shame!


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## Briss

I was reading about shorter cycles and it's all very depressing but the good news is that they consider a cycle to be short if you O before CD11 and I O most cycles on CD 11, very close but still not quite there yet. there is some medication that helps women O later but it obviously has side effects. Dr Zhai also said my problem is my follicular phase so I hope she can somehow extend it with herbs and acu. 

MalaMae's book has some more detailed info on the formula for building yin

Guiding herbal formula. In most fertility clinics the base formula chosen is the famous Liu Wei Di Huang Tang, a treatment which was formulated
hundreds of years ago and has been used ever since to build the Yin. Because we are going to use it just after the period and want to build the Blood as well as the Yin, it is usual to add the Blood tonics Dang Gui and Bai Shao. This makes the formula known as Gui Shao Di Huang Tang:

Gui Shao Di Huang Tang (Angelica Peonia Rehmannia decoction)
Shu Di 12 g Radix Rehmanniae Glutinosae Conquitae
Shan Yao 10 g Radix Dioscorea Oppositae
Shan Zhu Yu 10 g Fructus Corni Officinalis
Fu Ling 5 g Sclerotium Poriae Cocos
Mu Dan Pi 5 g Cortex Moutan Radicis
Ze Xie 5 g Rhizoma Alismatis
Dang Gui 10 g Radix Angelicae Sinensis 
Bai Shao 10 g Radix Paeoniae Lactiflorae

Out of this list I have the Blood tonics Dang Gui and Bai Shao and Mu Dan Pi. maybe Dr zhai does not think I need to build yin? I wonder why does not she give me the rest of the formula? 

I think I wasted a lot of time trying to figure out how to lose weight so now hopefully it wont take that long. and yes, being able to have chocolate is absolutely fantastic! today I had an apple for breakfast and fish with veg for lunch totalling 400 calories so I still have about 500 calories to spend on chocolate.

well done for getting a session in, well timed! I would be quite happy actually if all it takes is 4 min. with hubby's non existent sex drive it's a nightmare every time, takes hours of "hard work" to get him up and running&#8230; but we also managed to BD last night mainly cos he is due for SA on Monday and ideally we need 3 days of abstinence. romance has left the building&#8230; I was very upset with him cos he came home drunk! cant believe he is doing this to me after all we've been through and days before the test. Told him if his sperm count is not good enough on Monday I am leaving him and this time I mean it

so funny LOL reading about your sanitary products adventures, happened to me a couple of times as well. it would be a totally new experience for me not having to use these for a few months


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## Blythe

my experience of herbs has been that i have stayed on the same formula regardless of what point in my cycle i am....I suppose once Dr Z has cleared your heat she may chop it up a bit.

Im thinking about taking the pills post bleeding up to ovulation...something to build up yin then taking a yang nourishing formula post ovulation....and i might just get them off ebay...they are exactly the same pills i see in my acu place and it will save me some ££

i had a very very strong positive OPK this morning...in fact the strongest i remember seeing so that is a tick in box for BC although the rising temp pre ovulation is a cross in the box. I have really noticed my ovaries and uterus since taking the BC this cycle. in the trial they did with BC they did it from CDs 1-12 but i stopped on CD10 as i find I'm ovulating earlier these days and i dont want it to interfere with that.

I hope so much that your DH's result shows some improvement....it sounds as if he is very worried about you leaving him and over the months i think he has tried so much....if i thought my wife was thinking about leaving me i would get drunk too. My DH drinks and i know he would not give it up totally for 3 months.

i often think if i had more cash in my life [then more choices] i would probably not be with my DH but having been a single girl for so many years and kissing lots of frogs i think it is so difficult to find someone that you are comfortable just hanging out with and not really saying much. Theres alot to be said for comfortably co-existing with someone....i mean quite often i dont really get on with DH and he has very different ideas than me on some fundamental stuff but, for the most part, we are alright together. The excitement has long gone but i think thats pretty standard for [lots of] long term relationships. My mum was with my dad for over 25 years and had an affair which broke them up....she was so bored with my dad and thought it looked better elsewhere [certainly not implying same for you]. She has spent the rest of her life regretting it as he found happiness with someone else. 

Perhaps ICSI would be an option before leaving him...he sounds as if he is on board for having a family with you [ignore the mad running and occasional boozy slip up]...i mean check out those supps he taking everyday....I would imagine finding out you have a low SC would be difficult to deal with in light of men and their pride....they just dont share like us ladies. I hope you dont think im talking out of turn and i do understand your frustrations...but you have a man who loves you and wants a baby with you and I hope so so much it will happen soon for you both :)


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## Briss

It's just getting worse, I had a breakdown last night, AF and everything looked really gloomy we argued (in our usual fashion) and one of the neighbors called the police!! I was so lost when they arrived I could not even understand what was happening. Now I can of course think of million ways how I should have reacted but last night I could not even think straight. we explained that we just had an argument, that's all but in the end we are getting a police record of "domestic incident". I am so angry at the neighbors. I do not know how these things work, never had an encounter with the police before but as far as I know police records are there for ever, I am so distressed by it (being a solicitor and all) on top of being generally disappointed in life. will it ever get better or is this it, just getting worse and worse and there is no light of any kind. the only positive thing was that my Dh and I were so shaken by the whole experience that it kind of brought us closer together, we would have even had sex (not BD but proper love making) if it was not for AF


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## Blythe

Briss - have PM'd you..

:hugs:


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## Briss

Blythe, thanks very much! very comforting. I feel much better now

Going back to our usual business, been trying to do the detox thing, started off with skin brushing which supposed to open pores and stimulate the lymphatic system to transport toxins and then made myself colon sweep shake - it's like drinking mud or concrete... it's possible that I did not mix it right so i just had half glass in case it's wrong. Will be doing more research to find out what it's supposed to look like. then in a couple of hours will have fruit juice + carrots

very pleased with my weight loss, am back to my pre-Barcelona level! chocolate works cos last night I was so upset with AF that I bought a whole box of belgium chocolate and had about 400 calories and a glass of red. I expected AF but it took its time really which made me hope and also it started really weird like spotting and it's still very slow. no proper flow at all. I am concerned it might be the herbs cos the last thing I want is to have longer AF which drags on beyond my usual 6 days. still quite pleased with 26 day cycle and CD12 ovulation. not pleased with 2 day headaches and cramps which i did not have in a while. also today I can feel some weird scratching like pains in my uterus


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## Blythe

Have you got a proper flow yet or are you still spotting?


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## Briss

Blythe, I agree about taking something post bleeding up to ovulation to build up yin. I am considering raising it with the doc on Monday. I am not sure you need to improve your yang though your LH is really good. 

DH was begging not to leave him until we get his results on Monday, I was just so upset cos I realised that we practically waster the whole year, all these months he was losing weight he had no good sperm because of that so effectively he sacrificed my baby for looking slim!!! that really hit me hard

I also raised the question of finances which has been bugging me for some time but because TTC is more important I did not bring it up. I do not think it fair that we are paying 50/50 for everything + I pay for most TTC related expenses while he earns twice as much as I do. when he was out of work that was justified but now I personally think he should pay for everything. I have to warn you I am no feminist and I do believe that men get more from the relationships, things that you cant put value on, we tend to give, give, give so they should pay pay pay.

Dh and I are also differ in very fundamental issues like how to bring up a child (but let's get there when we get there) unfortunately or fortunately we still have plenty of excitement because we divorce each other daily and then get back together it's like honeymoon all over again but very short lived and I am getting tired of these ups and downs. but we were broken up for a year before we got married and I did not find anyone else who would be suited more than my DH. if we divorce I do not think i will find any one else but I will definitely have a baby. I am sorry about your mum it's really hard, when you leave the relationships it's always a risk that you end up losing more than you gain. it can turn out differently you just never know. 

Thanks so much for your encouragement, I do wonder sometimes if he loves me, I think he does (after 11 years) and I think I should find a way to make it work


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## Blythe

If my DH was earning more than me i would hope he would fork out more than i do....as it is at the moment he is earning nothing and i expect to be earning more than him for the foreseeable.....

im done with my career...i have nothing left to prove and if i could afford it i would give up being employed for being self employed. I love to sew and i would love to make bridal tutus for a living [or at least a bit of pocket money] :) Im always thinking of ways to make money that dont involve working in an office environment.....just need to sort a mortgage out first :wacko:

I brought some maca tablets for DH and he has not complained about them so will probably stick with them rather than the powder which he was always moaning about. 

i have acu tomorrow....im hoping they will renew my little deal which is 5 sessions for £100 but perhaps not as i know the sessions have gone up from £20 to £30 so i will see. Im hoping they keep it down as ive spent over a grand in there and no noticeable changes for me yet. Honestly i feel better now than i have for a while and i suspect very much it is to do with gaining control of my eating and growing my nails!!


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## Briss

I also love to sew! I used to make my own clothes :) too lazy now. I have not reached the top in my career but at this point i either have to chose having a baby and going for a partnership I obviously chose a baby. I do not mind not realising my full potential career-wise, I achieved a lot and quite proud of myself but realised that career is not important any more. Had i genius of some sort I would probably think differently but what I do is so trivial that it's not worth it.

You wont believe what's happening now, our bloody neighbours are having a party! about 20 or so youngsters shouting out load with music etc I cant believe this! not even sure how to handle it but it's not possible to sleep cos it feels like we are at a night club rather than home. The police seems to be saying that we cant call them unless smb is being hurt or smth, not even sure what I am supposed to do about the noise. Poor hubby got so tired that he fell asleep on the sofa :) apart from that we had a really good day today, went out to Tate modern and had a dinner at a restaurant, it felt like we were in love again. my detox and diet is ruined but it's OK, getting our relationship sorted was more important. 

I finally got my proper flow but it feels different, more painful and acne is back! not sure if that's the herbs or chocolate (I've been eating a lot last few days)

Your DH's situation is temporary, he will get a new job very soon i am sure.

i also switched to maca pills cos figuring out how to sneak the powder in his food is just too complicated 

nails is a huge thing! i am still tearing my hair away but there are more important things to sort out first. am hoping to be able to stick to my diet tomorrow. need to figure out how to detox properly was totally unprepared today and it just did not go well from the start. I am preparing morally to pay 130 for acu on monday with Dr's Zhai assistant and probably another 140 for herbs - outrages prices I am just hoping it's going to make a difference.


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## Blythe

i had some nice strong stabbing pains this morning from my right ovary so hoping that is the egg popping....im liking this cycle...i have had a nice strong definite LH surge and noticeable ovulation which i put down to the BC. Told DH he should prepare for more BD...he said i should have warned him before he went swimming! he had better get some energy from somewhere before the day is out!!

i went to acu and there was a different receptionist...she said straight away that they would keep the same price for me so that 5 sessions for £100. she tried to sell the herbs but then understood i was trying to keep costs down but i did ask to get a yang tonifying formula for the next two weeks [i started spotting last cycle about 5 days before AF came :(]. I got two pots of pills 'Jin Kui Shen Qi Wan' so will start taking them once i get my temp rise.

The receptionist started talking about acu/herbs saying it can take a minimum of 3 months to sort out eggs and then usually at least 6 months to get pregnant...i explained i had tried it on and off for well over 6 months and then she said she was also trying to get pregnant and was taking herbs.....my next appt is with a lady doctor which i am quite excited about as i hope they will start asking me where i am in my cycle and wont look at me as if im crazy when i say im about to ovulate...this last doc always does exactly the same points although to his credit he does needle loads of points.

was nosing around and saw this:
https://www.acupuncturebrooklyn.com/alternative-health/staging-herbal-formulas-to-enhance-fertility


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## Feygrl7

I am an acupuncturist and it does work wonders! I've had patients already in the process of getting prepped for IUIs when they first come to me me and then a month later when going in for ultrasound prior to the procedure they are told that they are already preggers :happydance: 

It amazes me every single time!


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## Briss

Blythe said:


> was nosing around and saw this:
> https://www.acupuncturebrooklyn.com/alternative-health/staging-herbal-formulas-to-enhance-fertility

Blythe, thank you, very interesting particularly the fact that you should be using different formulas before and after O which makes total sense to me. but nothing seems to be working for us.

"red clover, or red clover mixed with nettles and oatstraw has pushed many women over the brink from infertility to fertility." I've been drinking red clover and red clover mixed with nettles for over a year now and it did not push me anywhere. 

both docs gave me Dang gui (Chinese angelica) which is supporting the follicular phase 
I think our problem is just aging eggs and poor sperm. although looking at my charts I do not seem to have dip at O and temp spiking high right after O. not sure what this means and what herbs I should be taking for this.

after last night's restaurant not surprisingly my weight is slightly up this morning.


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## Briss

Feygrl7 said:


> I am an acupuncturist and it does work wonders! I've had patients already in the process of getting prepped for IUIs when they first come to me me and then a month later when going in for ultrasound prior to the procedure they are told that they are already preggers :happydance:
> 
> It amazes me every single time!

Hello Feygrl what points do you needle for poor sperm quality? and do you give a man any herbs? my husband was on shengji ngguben wan formula for several months but it did not improve anything. can you recommend a good formula?


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## Blythe

i sometimes have those slow rises in prog post ovulation....i would like a nice definite rise in temps. I have been looking at stuff which relates to yin transforming into yang post ovulation and found this:

https://naahac.com/uploads/Menstruation_Recommendations.pdf


i hope the acu goes well today Briss - please report back :)


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## Blythe

nederland said:


> that does work!

what works? Acupuncture?


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## Briss

Had my first follow-up appointment today, it was very good. It was with one of her doctors, he asked me lots of questions checked my pulse/tongue, looked at my charts (I may have to do my charts manually for some reason they find it difficult to read FF charts) and unlike any other Chinese doc he actually answered my questions! 

He confirmed that I still have lots of excess heat (tongue is red/yellow) and it's not easy to get rid of. 

My pulse is wiry  sign of liver stagnation and interestingly TMI: the frequency of my bowel movement is aggravating the condition. Apparently my 5-6 times a week is not good enough. it has to be EVERY morning. I am to eat things like carrots/apples etc for dinner so I get a result in the morning. I am actually thinking that my headache and cramps before AF might be the result of constipation after Barcelona if these things are related cos these are clear signs of liver stagnation. Re pulse, it's interesting cos he said my left pulse was moderate and it was only my right pulse that was wiry. Interesting bit on pulse https://www.sacredlotus.com/diagnosis/pulse_images.cfm apparently Xuan Mai (Wiry, Taut) pulse can be a sign of Liver and Gall Bladder disease, various painful disorders, phlegm retention, malaria!, abnormal circulation of Qi. Tense vascular Qi due to the liver not gently performing its function, can also be due to the retention of a pathogen in the liver. 

Sleeping time, he could not stress enough that I should go to bed before 11 pm! not even sure how that's possible but I will give it a go. 

He said I have yin deficiency and my yin needs to be nourished. again, no spicy food, alcohol etc. 

he said he will move me from raw herbs to sachets. a bit relieved cos getting tired of cooking the herbs. On the other hand sachets do not look like proper medicine. Also, only after a meal, same as raw herbs. So I got 2 packs: Morning tea - QING YING SAN and evening tea  XIAO YAO SAN. They are already pre-packed so I think these are very standard formulas (a bit disappointing cos these are much cheaper on line, I paid 140 for 2 weeks).

qing ying san clears the nutritive level, relieves fire toxin, drains heat, and nourishes the yin. Cornu Rhinoceri (xi jiao), Radix Scrophulariae Ningpoensis (xuan shen), Radix Rehmanniae Glutinosae (sheng di huang), Tuber Ophiopogonis Japonici (mai men dong), Flos Lonicerae Japonicae (jin yin hua), Fructus Forsythiae Suspensae (lian qiao), Rhizoma Coptidis (huang lian), Herba Lophatheri Gracilis (dan zhu ye), Radix Salviae Miltiorrhizae (dan shen) https://www.herbsmithrx.com/traditional_QingYingSan.asp 

Xiao Yao Wan is a well known ancient Chinese herbal medicine for liver Qi stagnation, anxiety, irritability, stress, and depression due to the challenge of a daily life or premenstrual tension  sad but all true. https://www.activeherb.com/xiaoyao/ Xiao Yao Wan is the original form of Jia Wei Xiao Yao Wan which has the enhanced function of clearing the internal heat. 

He confirmed that sometimes they change the prescription before and after O but not in my case cos we are still fighting the heat. 

He said I am very young (bless you!) so it's surprising I have such low AMH levels, I should have at least 5-6. I am so hoping that this is just the result of the heat and not me being premenopausal. 

After the appointment I had acu. very comfortable and relaxing! At Dr Zhai they practice electro acu on all points. interestingly the points were completely different to what I had before. this is the first time I had points on my back: 8 in total, 4 on each side; 4 on my back; 2 on my ankles and 2 on my heels. it was very relaxing but no heating lamp (I really like it when it's warm), no massage afterwards and no cupping  last two are my favourite part. 

I have my next appointment in 2 weeks.


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## Blythe

that sounds like a very thorough appt...thanks for reporting back. Lots of interesting stuff there and stuff you can do to help no doubt....i wonder what food 'healing with whole foods' recommends for clearing heat.

i see that Xiao Yao Wan has been used in tests and that it led to decreased levels of E2...thats great!

Once you get into a pattern of going to bed earlier i am sure it will be fine although i appreciate that you work very long hours.


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## Briss

Healing with food offers a very interesting take on heat actually, apparently symptoms of heat can be caused by inadequate yin function. If yin aspects can be so low that the heat appears relatively excessive. maybe that's what I have?

Garlic apparently can deplete Yin, I love garlic... yoga and gardening can help build Yin. Sugar offers a quick Yin-fix but ultimately deplete it. 

I eat lots of cooling food (banana, apples, citrus, tomato, lettuce radish, cucumber, celery, asparagus, eggplant, spinach, cabbage, broccoli, cauliflower, yogurt, nettles!, red clover, peppermint) which is supposed to balance my heat but maybe it's different cos I also have cold.

I did not weight myself this morning cos was overeating last night and can feel I am putting my weight back on :( somehow I just lost this state of mind I had before Barcelona where I could go through the hunger and everything, feel so weak now


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## Briss

Our relationships with hubby are really great these past couple of days, it's like we cant get enough of each other, until we get SA results and might have to start discussing unpleasant stuff like IVF/donor sperm/divorce&#8230;

and obviously being happier than usual does not do any good for my diet, am gradually putting my weight back on cos I keep overeating. also was super happy this morning we stayed in bed until 10 am and then went out and had some coffee &#8211; blissful morning, who cares about work (I know it's going to catch up with me and not in a nice way but somehow I do not care)

Today is the last day of my raw herbs, will start on sachets from tomorrow. cant wait cos really tired of cooking these herbs


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## Blythe

its so good that you and DH are getting on better. Do you know when the SA results will come back?

Thank you for that earlier link on pulses...its a fascinating thing and must take so long to perfect the reading of pulses. I was reading an interesting thing earlier....

"A wiry pulse, where the tension of the pulse is tight, might indicate ovulation difficulties or even endometriosis. In this case, pushing down where the flow of the pulse hits my finger feels similar to pressing down on taut tennis racket strings. if you have strong hormones, you might exhibit a slippery pulse, where the pulsating through my three fingers feels like ball bearings slipping through my fingers effortlessly. A certain jumpiness in a slippery pulse may denote a positive pregnancy outcome; this feels not unlike dry beans dancing on a hot pan." [i got this from the Tao of Fertility book].

I'm about to go for my weigh in but will not be hanging around for the exercise bit of the class...I'm just too exhausted today....i dont feel i have lost anything.....im still in the right frame of mind though to stick at it. ive been eyeing up that fast diet where you have 2 days of eating around 500 cals and then normally the rest of the time.


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## Blythe

Only lost 1ib....thats a measley 3lb in 3 weeks and i have been starving.......not even 5 years ago if i had eaten like i Have been doing i would have lost at least 6/7lbs by now.......got to stick with it though.


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## Briss

Good luck with weigh in, I hope it goes well and you lost some weight. I went shopping today!! it was only H&M, I got a skirt and a top and they are my old size so a bit tight but I am so hoping I will get there soon. I am doing really well the entire day but then hubby comes home in the evening with something delicious to spoil me and my strength goes out of the window. I had about 900 calories so far, most of them chocolate but I did have some veg and cheese for dinner. I was actually losing weight without exercising most of the time, i think it's all about calories even when you think you do not eat much once you start counting you realise that you do

I was hoping SA results would come yesterday (paying 170 for the test...) but it looks like it may take 3-4 more days. we are just hanging in there waiting, cant even make any holiday plans cos we are not sure if we are going to be together... hubby got quite drunk last night celebrating his 3 months without beer and I have ovulation coming up, not great


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## Briss

it took me ages to write my message you've already got back from your weight in :) sorry you are disappointed but it's still a move in the right direction. My weight goes up and down every 3 days and that's not great. I think the older you get the harder it is to lose weight. when i was in my mid 20s I stopped putting sugar in my tea and started drinking green tea with no intention of losing weight but I became almost skeleton skinny in a month and now I stopped all sugars and there was no weight loss at all. life is just getting worse...


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## Briss

I am really depressed this morning, got HIGh on my CBFM and it's only CD6, looks like I am facing early O and short cycle. not happy about it at all and I wonder if this is the herbs. two cycles where I did not take the herbs were 27 (although I was under a lot of stress which might have delayed O) and 26 days, my cycles on previous herbs were 24/25 and this one also looks like 24 or 25 (if I am lucky). My Dh thinks that no one really understands properly these herbs and I should not be taking them. You hear so many wonderful success stories, and my situation seems to be getting worse: terrible acne and/or shorter cycle. I have very strong doubts about the whole thing. If I continue to have early O this and next cycle that would probably be the end of my faith in Chinese practitioners in London. 

My weight is climbing back up &#8211; also depressing. Looks like I really need to stick to about 800 calories a day


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## Blythe

I know you must be disheartened by this but I also used to get my highs starting cd6/7 although usual O around cd 13 although it has been earlier. My understanding is that the egg should still be viable if released after cd10 at least although IVF seen early ovulators get their bfps. Clearly you need some reassurance from dr Z's clinic about this and they should be able to address your concerns. 

I am trying to eat less today as when I th


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## Blythe

Silly iphone and big fingers! ......Thought about it I was going over 1200 cals per day and was shocked to see my balsamic vinegar had cals....I always thought it was cal free and I have been pouring it on everything. 

It is difficult to retain faith in Tcm when we see few returns on our investment both in terms of cash, time and fiddling around with herbs. I know exactly how you feel. I'm wondering if it can really help at all with me but will continue with it, albeit with less commitment. I quite like taking the tabs and having Acu every couple of weeks as it fits in with my life. Going every week and doing herbs twice a day was just a continual reminder of my yearning and pain. I now feel more relaxed and love that I'm thinking about getting slim almost as much as getting a bfp. It's a break for me.....how long it will last is another matter :wacko:


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## Briss

Blythe, I like your attitude, very positive. 

at dr Zhai's they think my problem is follicular phase i.e. early o/shorter cycle, they do not think 26 days is normal (although that's my normal cycle and have been from the start). I was expecting that their herbs would start delaying O but it does not seem to be happening. it's probably excess heat that's causing me to o early and I understand it's a hard thing to cure. I would be happy if I could just go back to my constant 25-27 day cycle with occasional 28/29 day cycle. I have not had 29 day cycle in a while now&#8230;

Tried the morning herbs today &#8211; OMG this is so bad, I nearly vomited. had to pull myself together and finish the tea. will probably take me a while to get used to the taste. At least I do not need to spend 1.5 hours cooking it every day. 

I am slightly annoyed that we still cant get SA results from them, there is so much at stake here. 

Am having fish with veg for lunch. will be trying not to have anything for dinner like I did before &#8211; this seemed to be helping with weight loss. I am so depressed today that I finally look at what I eat more seriously. will be going back to feeling hungry. balsamic vinegar has about 20 calories per tbsp &#8211; not a lot but may add calories if you are not careful with how much you add. I had fried courgettes last night and they are almost nothing in calories but everything comes from the olive oil I use to fry them - at least 120 per tbsp! Unfortunately, 1200 cals is a lot of me, I set 1,000 but in reality I was having below 900 and was losing weight. now I have about 1,000-1,3000 and gain weight everyday. I need to limit chocolate to only emergency situations when I cant bear the hunger any longer. 

MIL was going to visit this bank holiday weekend but changed her mind last minute &#8211; what a relief! our relationship with hubby is so shaky it simply would not be able to survive this visit. particularly, I am sure she has a lot to say re why we still do not have children&#8230;


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## alison29

Hi you guys..I have not abandoned b and b or this thread. I have just been having bladder pain STILL and depressed about it (so did not have much good to say). See a urologist today, hopefully can get some meds to help. It's like my system has gone wacko since the UTI. After i dropped off at school i cried all the way to work and in the back lab and my office when no one else is around (maybe the clomid has made me alittle mental too!) The good thing about feeling depressed is i am not so hungry so be careful what you wish for is true. I wanted to quit eating so much now i am but not so sure it is worth it.

I am glad you guys are focusing on weightloss still, feeling positive and seeing results in something is great! That's really crazy about your early cycle BRiss. I tried Free and EAsy wanderer and it did make my cycles more heavy so I quit but so many have good things to say about the herbs. Maybe it is the herbs making things early. IT couldn't hurt to take an herb break for a cycle to see. That is really great dh quit for 3 months! wow. Is he nicer off beer? I told my dh rum made him a bad person. So he started singing that gun roses song, " i used to love her but i had to kille her" Maybe clomid and silly drunk person are not a good combination. 

So I took clomid and ovulated with progesterone at 28 which is GREAT. The bad thing is i was taking D mannose for bladder and apparently that can bind to sperm. IS the universe trying to send me a message to quit trying to get pregnant already?!
Plus not to great in the bding frequency either. DH was sick and really busy at work which is outdoors and really hot here. On the positive he has been drinking more water. We haven't been getting on too great neither of us feeling all too well. The bladder irritation is yet ANOTHER reason for me to not eat chocolate, it really causes flares i hear.

Hang in there. I did not know the bal salm had calories much either. So i have been checking in just didn't want to dump on you all but i just did anyway !


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## Blythe

Briss - thats good news about the MIL changing her mind about visiting...that is the very last thing you need right now. I know you are disappointed about your DH getting drunk but overall it sounds as if you are in a good place right now. I so hope his SA results reflect all his hard work re supps and avoiding booze. If they are not what you had hoped for i hope that you are both able to agree on best way forward, and a way that means you are still together. 

i am surprised that the powdered herbs are more awful than the raw herbs you were boiling up...i thought it would be the other way around. 

Alison - lovely to hear from you....im sorry to hear you had a UTI and problems after....its so painful....sorry you were crying today :hugs:

i have never taken clomid but have read so much about it...those side effects scare me....if you got 1 BD in there is a chance. I got pregnant after only 1 BD and on CD15 so it was likely it caught the tail end of my egg as i usually ovulate 13/14.

I do hope you start to feel better soon :flower:


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## Briss

Alison, great to hear from you. i am very sorry you are having bladder pain. I am so hoping the urologist will help you. It might be an idea to have a break from TTC until you get it sorted, it must be really unpleasant. I had UTI after lap for about a week and I could not function at all, going to the toilet was a nightmare, I tried BD but it made things worse. I have a friend who was unable to even start TTC for over a year because of the recurrent bladder condition. it's so frustrating 

My DH is so much better sober, i cant stand him when he is drunk, he turns into a very stupid inconsiderate person


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## Briss

I started taking grapefruit juice for EWCM and it's 200 calories from 2 grapefruits!! does not leave me much space for anything else in the evening and not filling me up at all. 

May be I did not cook the raw herbs right but they did not have such a strong taste as powdered herbs


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## vix1972

Hi all, as this the acupuncture/herbs thread thought I would say that I went to my gp with back pain just over a week ago. I asked if I could have another blood test on Cd3 to check my fsh level and my gp said that I would have to have periods to get the date right and that they do cd5 for some strange reason. When I said I have had regular periods since Feb this year thanks to acu and Chinese herbs her eyebrows shot up to her hairline hee hee:haha: Anyway as soon as Af shows up I can book in and find out what my levels are now.

I am considering swapping my herbs for radiant wonder and wonder what anyone else thinks of them, if they have heard anything about them?


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## gingmg

Briss- This may be totally out of line of me, but I'm worried about your 800 calorie a diet. That's just not enough calories!! I totally understand the emotional ups and downs of body image/trying to loose weight/eating habits ect.... I am the queen!! Have you ever considered weight watchers? I joined the online program last year. It's only $18 a month, not sure how that translates into euros. BUT, i've learned a lot and found it very helpful. They count points instead of calories, and I've leaned not all calories are created equally. Fruits and vegetables are "free", they don't count towards your points and you can eat as much as you want of them. I lost 10 pounds within a few months and felt great. I also upped my exercise routines, but didn't go crazy. Just yoga a few times a week, and a few long walks a week. Weight watchers completely changed how I looked at food. I didn't feel like I was on a diet and I was NEVER hungry. I was amazed at how much food you can have, as long as it's the right food. And also, no food is off limits. So if you want that chocolate, you can have it, you just have to change a few other things around. Having said all that, once I hit my goal, I stopped the program, and bam, all 10 pounds are back. So I'm back to square one and trying again. I hope you're not mad, I don't want to lecture, but 800 calories is just simply not enough to get by on. You'll end up hungry and at some point overeating because your body just can't get by on that little calories. I know that weight watchers isn't the answer for everyone, but it really did change how I look at food, the choices i was making, and again I realized that not all calories are created equally. I found the online chat rooms through weight watchers incredibly helpful too. I know that there are many ways to loose weight, but I just hope you are doing this healthy and not hurting yourself in the long run.


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## gingmg

Oh and as far as acupuncture, last week she said I felt much more balanced than when I started. I guess we shall see what happens this cycle.


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## shiseru

Hello ladies, how is everyone? Been following the thread closely though not posting.

You ladies motivated me to diet too! I need to shed a few pounds and do more tummy exercise to get rid of my muffin tops! Am cutting down carbo and eat more protein and fibre nowadays.

Sorry to hear about the bladder pain Alison, speedy recovery for you and your DH! Your progesterone level is great, that level definitely means ovulation. But it sucks to know that the med bind to sperm but hopefully there is one champion able to make it to your egg!

I took clomid at night before bed and I did not experience any side effect. femara has lesser side effect i heard but I took them at night as well.

gingmg, looks like you have a perfect 28 days cycle with ovulatio n spot on cd14! There is a lot of open dot though are you taking your temp at different time of the day?

afm, still no ovulation, went for a scan yesterday and today, my biggest follie has not increase in size remains at 13.5mm. My af was weird this cycle i suspect i took the femara before my real menses came!

Ah well, opk tested negative too, I am likely to go back for another scan in 2 days time hopefully there will be some progress. I do acupuncture 2x per week but I heard others do 1x per week or even once per month so I am not sure what is best?


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## gingmg

Briss- I thought about my post after and I'm sorry I said anything. Its not my place.


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## gingmg

Shiseru- My cycles are always 28 days. I work the night shift 3 days a week, so I temp at a different time every day depending if I was up all night and slept all day or was a normal person and slept at night. Makes me wonder sometimes how accurate it is for me, but the overall trend is clear.


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## Briss

Vix, welcome! your results with acu/herbs are very impressive and inspiring. I am still due for my FSH re test (probably next cycle) and so hoping months of acu/herbs did their job at lowering my levels. I think CD5 is too late for FSH, you really need CD 3 and you can probably cheat with your GP and tell them it's CD 5 and just go on Cd3. CD5 results may not be accurate. I've never heard of radiant wonder but up until recently I mainly took their own individually prepared formulas rather than ready made (which might have been a mistake cos ready made formulas are more tested and may give you a more predictable and guaranteed result) 

Shiseru, join our dieting club!! it's so much easier when you are not doing it alone. I hope your next scan will show some progress and you will get to O soon. I used to do acu every week but now once every 2 weeks because I think at Dr Zhai the emphasis is on herbs rather than acu. Acu is more like an additional bonus for your follow up appointment to justify the cost. 

Gingmg, thanks for your post, I really appreciate your views. Ive never been on weight watchers but a friend was with them for ages and one thing I leaned was that Fruits and vegetables are "free" and they don't count towards your points :) but actually that was my mistake from the start because I started eating lots of fruit/veg thinking I will be losing weight now simply because I do not eat bad sugars and the rest is "free". so for 2-3 weeks I was basically hungry every minute cos you cant really get full on fruit/veg but I was not losing weight. when I started counting calories I realised that I was actually eating well over 1,300 a day only on fruit/veg so not surprisingly I was not losing anything. and being hungry was really tough. now with adding a bit of chocolate hunger issue is disappearing because when I am hungry and I eat a banana/apple &#8211; that's a lot of calories and I am back to being hungry in 20-30 min. if I eat 5-10 gr of chocolate it's the same calories but it keeps me full and happy for much longer (obviously it's not healthy cos sugar does not really fill me up it just has this effect, I do realise that). That's not the kind of diet one can stick to for ever, it's just to get me back to my normal weight and after that I hope I can just watch that I do not overeat. Also, 800 calories is loo little for most people but I am very small and I guess for me that works. I also learned that I must eat a small piece of meat/fish cos it's not that much calorie wise (a piece of fish is like two bananas!) but it creates the right balance for me to lose weight. 

btw, lost a bit of weight this morning and I think I can see it now on my clothes! my tummy is definitely getting smaller cos it's not sticking out as much. Saw a woman drinking coffee this morning and really badly wanted to have cappuccino with a cake&#8230; but once I remembered my weight this morning it sort of gave me the strength to put this thought aside and carry on. 

My evening herbs were not as bad as the morning ones, I still cant make myself drink my morning herbs but I must. pored very little water so I just have to take a few sips. it smells SO bad and tastes much worse than it smells, it's probably one of the worst things I ever had to take. I miss my raw herbs

finally got SA results, not great but much better than last time. count moved up from 1 to 11 million but morphology is 2% which is very poor. Motility is good (last time it was non-existent). I am still very happy cos it's a really big improvement on last SA and it shows that we can actually do things to improve hubby's sperm, the bad news is that over the last 3 years it was never within norm so not sure if it ever will be&#8230; Also the comment says that he may have Teratozoospermia (poor morphology) which is apparently not treatable and IVF/ICSI is the only way. hubby is disappointed cos he expected his "sacrifice" will lead to at least 30 mil. not sure yet where we go from here


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## Blythe

Briss - hope you are well....wonderful news about the SA result......if DH can still cut down on the booze and continue with the supps im sure it can keep getting better. These apparently help with low sperm count:

https://www.yinyanghouse.com/store/...lity-low-sperm-count-impotence-herbal-formula

its very exciting that the hard work is starting to pay off.....never mind the scales its getting into old clothes that proves the most satisfying [i would imagine...im still to get there]. Back in my 20s i lost 3 stone within about 4/5 months. I did it by just eating carbs...it was awfully bland but a typical day would be a plain bread roll, mashed potato and veg, baked beans on toast. I never had dressings or snacks...the thrill of getting into size 8/10 clothes was quite something....i used to spend my evenings dressing up in my bedroom i was so excited.

today is DH's birthday and i got some cava last night and had a couple of glasses but had spinach, boiled eggs and tuna for tea and im feeling quite trim today.....as determined as ever to loose weight and not seeking comfort in piles of food. im finding it a great distraction to TTC.

Do you pinch your nose when taking the herbs? just think if it tastes bad its doing some good!! although i do remember some herbs tasting and looking and smelling very much like dirty pond water.

gingmg - your cycle looks very much like mine.....a nice clear jump in temps post ovulation :)....like me you also have quite high temps in first portion of chart....Briss posted some useful stuff a while back on this....which i have copied below:


_I've been reading up on problems with the follicular phase and heat in particular, found this interesting piece:

Heat in the follicular phase is commonly due to yin deficiency or stagnation of the Heart and Liver qi. Patients with fertility problems frequently experience a great deal of stress when month after month they are unable to conceive. In these cases, heat from stagnation may disturb the steady building of yin and blood, and is often seen in upward spikes in the basal body temperature. Gui Shao Di Huang Wan (Liu Wei Di Huang Wan plus Dang Gui and Bai Shao) is a very effective formula for this stage, nourishing both the yin and blood. The Heart and Liver may be addressed with additions or modifications to the formula.

https://www.jadeinstitute.com/jade/un...-fertility.php_

Shiseru - hello :hugs: i hope you are well...and that this is going to be your cycle :flower: GL on the scan in a couple of days.

Vix72 - hi :flower: please update on your bloods when you get the results back...its stories like yours that make me stick with TCM. i see the ingredients for this 'Radiant Wonder' are:

Rehmannia, Prepared Root, White Peony root, Dong Quai, root, Ligusticum (Chuan Xiong) (Cnidium root) (Chinese Lovage)


you may well find this is a classic formula sold under another chinese name for a fraction of the price. Theres some info here about some of the ingredients listed:

https://www.yahwehsaliveandwell.com/pages/femalefertility.htm


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## Briss

Blythe, nice steady temp post O! looking really good. my morning herbs are so much worse than dirty pond water. I find it really hard to force myself to swallow the thing. Pinching nose does not help that much cos they smell up the whole room in a second. I am not sure they are doing any good since started talking them I have constant headache. had to take ibuprophen today cos cant take it anymore. I never had headache around O and rarely before AF. since starting dr Zhai's herbs headaches are constantly there. not sure if it's related though. 

Unfortunately my DH got really drunk last night and he did not even come home (probably was trying to avoid arguments), it's twice since the test so not sure what his count is like now probably very poor and I am ovulating in 1-2 days. I am so disappointed, words cannot describe. Thinking again of doing it alone with donor sperm. how much longer can I wait for him to sort his sperm out? 

Happy birthday to your DH! spinach, boiled eggs and tuna sounds good and healthy and not heavy on calories. 

no weight loss for me this morning&#8211; disappointing cos I thought I was good yesterday. still, determined to continue


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## Blythe

Briss - those headaches don't sound so good...i wonder if its the heat coming out of your body....

i went to a japanese restaurant for lunch and had a salmon salad and miso soup and just eaten a tin of fruit....theres is chocolate in the house but I WILL NOT be eating it!!!! i know that losing weight and getting into old clothes will help me deal with AF if/when it comes. im very pleased with my post ovulation temps and they have been quite consistent for the last 3 months...perhaps it is the acu. Fingers crossed i will not spot this month.


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## gingmg

Blythe- thanks for the info on heat/yin.


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## Blythe

Briss - hows it going with DH? Maybe hes just letting off some steam by having a few drinks after the pressure of the test...is there a certain count/morphology you need in order to do IUI.....if so, do you know what it is please? I saw on another thread a lady was concerned about her DH's SA results and he had 6% morp which is higher than normal from what i understand.

i have just had Bran flakes for breakfast with 0% fat milk...it was actually ok...and I'm having a strong black coffee no sugar with it. ive realised that i have been having bigger portions and too much really in order to loose weight......2lb a week would do me nicely! if i can just get below the 11 stone mark that would be all i need to get me to the finish line!! last night i was sitting in my front room by myself and remembered in my baking draw i had some 70% cocoa chic...3 massive bars...i ate half of one of them but dont feel bad as i think its quite good for you as is red wine [sort of] :nope:


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## Briss

Blythe, we had difficult couple of days with hubby, cos it was not just a couple of drinks - he was properly drunk! I found it really difficult to forgive him cos it was just before O :( he was angelic and apologetic etc trying to win me back but I just do not think this is it, I am quite sure this will happen again and I just cant stand him drunk (leaving alone damage to TTC it's just really bad to have a man in that state I lose any regard I ever had for him, he turns into smth very pathetic). any way he is very lucky I did not get PEAK today so we BD twice in one day (cant remember last time this happened) to clear his "wasted" spermies so hopefully if we BD on Monday we can still get some fresh supply and it wont be too late.

6% morphology is actually good, 5% is norm, we just have 2%. Google says we cant do anything about it but I am sure he had better morphology 2 years ago so still hoping this is curable. I think his result will qualify us for IUI but cant be sure. 

Good news is I reached a new low in my weight, quite below pre-Barcelona levels - so happy! I have not had this weight for quite a few years I think and I can definitely see it, my tummy is smaller, waist is more prominent and thighs are a bit smaller (but not firmer unfortunately) but my arms are still the same, I think arms are not going to shrink it's one of my most problematic areas cos I cant wear striped tops and dresses: arms and fat around underarms is just too flabby and it does not look nice. But I do not need to undo my skirts anymore while seating at my desk! this is the major change!! yes I had to do that before (luckily I have my own office) so I could breath ....

You will have to bear with my constant complains about the taste of the morning herbs but this is simply HORRIFIC!!!! and it stays in my mouth and it stinks so bad :( 

well done on no sugar in your coffee!! I never could do that, love black coffee but only with sugar. I think you have to experiment a bit with diets before you can figure out what works for you. I am slightly ashamed but chocolate does work for me because I can get happy with a tiny amount. I just had a pear of 100 calories which went through me unnoticed, I am still hungry. 100 calories is 20 gr of chocolate which can take away my hunger for at least half day if I stretch it in little pieces and have it with lots of herbal tea. I prefer to eat veg rather than fruit cos fruit seems like a waste of calories. cant help grapefruit juice though cos it does increase my EWCM.

I was going through my photos of 13-15 years ago and for the first time I did not feel sorry for myself cos I think I can get there before the summer is over! am making beet-root soup today, supposed to be very filling and low on calories cos it has cabbage mainly. hubby agreed to eat it too


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## Briss

Blythe said:


> Briss - those headaches don't sound so good...i wonder if its the heat coming out of your body....
> 
> i went to a japanese restaurant for lunch and had a salmon salad and miso soup and just eaten a tin of fruit....theres is chocolate in the house but I WILL NOT be eating it!!!! i know that losing weight and getting into old clothes will help me deal with AF if/when it comes. im very pleased with my post ovulation temps and they have been quite consistent for the last 3 months...perhaps it is the acu. Fingers crossed i will not spot this month.

I went to physiotherapist yesterday and she said my headaches are the result of terrible posture particular around my head/neck area. I tend to stick out my chin when I lean towards the screen for 15 hours a day :( it's really annoying cos it's so hard to change. 

Japanese cousin is actually really good for dieting cos most of their stuff is low calories.

Your post O temps are really beautiful! and I actually notice that ladies who get BFP quite often have really good charts for a few cycles before that so I think you are very close :)


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## Blythe

Briss - congratulations with the weight loss....what a brilliant feeling that must be. You have done so so well.....hunger pangs are the worst..I have been eating alot today but nothing high fat although you comments re charts and my temps have made me very happy...so much so that i raided baking drawer again and have downed nearly 100g of 72% choc....oh dear!

i wonder if there is anything you can do to make the powder more palatable...i know with one lot i had they put in something a bit like cocoa powder....it was just to take the edge off. mind you yours sound quite appealing and so i hope that it does the trick with the heat and you can change your prescription soon enough.

Its so difficult to change posture when we have got into such bad habits...i am the same in my office...very bad posture. i really try my hardest not to slouch as i know it will effect my back and im terrified of it going again as the pain was so unbearable. why do you lean towards the screen....have you had an eyesight check recently?


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## shiseru

briss, congrats on your weight loss, that sure motivates me, i wanna lose some weight too!

Blythe, happy birthday to your DH! Your BBT this cycle is looking great! 

Remember i had a scan on Wed then followed by Thurs, the follie did not increase in size it was still at 13.5mm. I was then told to go back for another on Sat, and the follie only grow 0.5mm. So... not good at all, might be a lousy egg likely to abandon this cycle. Took a blood test last Sat, the clinic said this will determine if the follie contains an egg (huh? didn't know BT can do this)

The damned stork has proven elusive. I think he lost our address...but we&#8217;ll find him.


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## Blythe

Shiseru - Im sorry to hear that your cycle is playing up....perhaps it is just a dud egg this month or perhaps you will just ovulate later this month although i know you usually ovulate before CD14. try to keep focused on the longer term and not get too disheartened. It is bloody tuff though isn't it.

Briss - i really struggled yesterday and could have quite happily gone to the supermarket and brought a load of sugar to eat....i didn't but i did overeat anyway so would be surprised if i have not gained this week. I must succeed though so feeling much more positive and motivated today. How are you....have you got some BDing in and have you felt any ovulation pains yet?

AFM - no symptoms at all so already focussing on next cycle and brought some more supplements. If no symptoms by CD11 i will start my exercising again. If there is no spotting this cycle i will consider it a success and be thankful that my cycles are looking nice and healthy, temp wise at least although i want to see if i can sort out that heat in the follicular phase. I have an acu appt next sunday with a female so will talk to her about something to nourish ki yin pre ovulation.


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## Briss

Shiseru, I am sorry this cycle is not working out that well, can you still TTC naturally? you may still O right?

Blythe, love your temp! really beautiful, so hoping this is a good sign. You do not need to look out for symptoms, i know you had them with your first pregnancy but there may be no symptoms at all and you can still get BFP. definitely test before doing any exercise. your temp does look promising. I could not do my temp properly today, had sleepless night, it might be those cappuccinos I had in the afternoon or approaching O or (a bit embarrassing) my sex drive that went completely out of control last night I did not want to wake hubby cos needed to give his count a chance to build up, hoping to BD later this afternoon. although we did BD yesterday morning which was not planned but it's so rare that DH initiates these things that I could not reject him. basically too much BD and hubby's drinking this cycle so I am mentally writing it off already unfortunately. I think I am O today or might have already done it - hard to say, my mad sex drive is still there so really pleased not to be in the office today and not around people cos everyone seem so damn attractive to me at the moment :) btw funny development on the police business, when two policemen came they took us into different rooms and while I just confessed to having a bit of a argument with hubby, my hubby did not say much and let the policemen figure it out himself. the funny thing is that we have lots of sport equipment at home cos hubby was trying build up some muscle for testosterone including a couch, pull up bar with some robes and rings on it, basically the policemen got it wrong and thought it was some kind of S&M equipment hence the strange noises that alerted the neighbors :) LOL I was laughing so much when hubby said the policemen made "he is not there to judge people's lifestyle choices" comment :) just made my day! I am really wandering what kind of record we are getting :)

I am so happy with my weight loss!!! even though hubby almost sabotaged my diet yesterday by taking me to patisserie Valerie where I had 3 cakes :( and two large cappuccinos, when I counted the calories together with grapefruit juice it was over 900!! so I only had a space for a small portion of veg soup for dinner but the result is still there this morning - lost more weight!! it just shows that it does not matter what you eat as long as you keep within certain calorie level you have a good chance of losing some weight anyway. I definitely see the change, but would not go out in bikini yet cos even though I got slimmer I am still flabby - I have not done any exercise last 2-3 weeks :( my next challenge is trousers! if I continue like this then next week I might be able to squeeze into my old jeans. 

Blythe, 100g of 72% choc is a lot! I find eating choc slowly and in miniscule bites really helps. I can spend an hour just enjoying 10gr of choc with tea, takes practice though. weekends and evenings are really hard cos hubby brings home something really tasty and eats it in front of me so quite often I give in.

the herbs are just the worst, I feel sick even thinking about them. I now add just a little bit of water barely enough for 2 sips cos I really cant take it any more and right after I just have to eat a tiny piece of chocolates to get rid of the bitter taste in my mouth cos otherwise it will stay for ever. I also decided to drink my morning herbs at home cos it's just getting embarrassing in the office. they stink up my room and my hands and everything and I think people are starting to notice. maybe I am just paranoid but anyway it does do much good to my professional image. 

My eyesight is really bad and I do have glasses but my problem is that my eyes are very different, total opposites so it was really tricky to come up with the prescription that can work for both eyes. so it's not the kind of glasses I can just wear all day, i get very tired and cant wear them for long. I will think of something else that can work for my posture but leaning and sticking my chin out for 12-15 hours a day is starting to get to me. I do not have any headache when I am at home so it must be it. quite relieved it's not the herbs cos I was getting worried.


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## Blythe

Briss said:


> Shiseru, I am sorry this cycle is not working out that well, can you still TTC naturally? you may still O right?
> 
> Blythe, love your temp! really beautiful, so hoping this is a good sign. You do not need to look out for symptoms, i know you had them with your first pregnancy but there may be no symptoms at all and you can still get BFP. definitely test before doing any exercise. your temp does look promising. I could not do my temp properly today, had sleepless night, it might be those cappuccinos I had in the afternoon or approaching O or (a bit embarrassing) my sex drive that went completely out of control last night I did not want to wake hubby cos needed to give his count a chance to build up, hoping to BD later this afternoon. although we did BD yesterday morning which was not planned but it's so rare that DH initiates these things that I could not reject him. basically too much BD and hubby's drinking this cycle so I am mentally writing it off already unfortunately. I think I am O today or might have already done it - hard to say, my mad sex drive is still there so really pleased not to be in the office today and not around people cos everyone seem so damn attractive to me at the moment :) btw funny development on the police business, when two policemen came they took us into different rooms and while I just confessed to having a bit of a argument with hubby, my hubby did not say much and let the policemen figure it out himself. the funny thing is that we have lots of sport equipment at home cos hubby was trying build up some muscle for testosterone including a couch, pull up bar with some robes and rings on it, basically the policemen got it wrong and thought it was some kind of S&M equipment hence the strange noises that alerted the neighbors :) LOL I was laughing so much when hubby said the policemen made "he is not there to judge people's lifestyle choices" comment :) just made my day! I am really wandering what kind of record we are getting :)
> 
> I am so happy with my weight loss!!! even though hubby almost sabotaged my diet yesterday by taking me to patisserie Valerie where I had 3 cakes :( and two large cappuccinos, when I counted the calories together with grapefruit juice it was over 900!! so I only had a space for a small portion of veg soup for dinner but the result is still there this morning - lost more weight!! it just shows that it does not matter what you eat as long as you keep within certain calorie level you have a good chance of losing some weight anyway. I definitely see the change, but would not go out in bikini yet cos even though I got slimmer I am still flabby - I have not done any exercise last 2-3 weeks :( my next challenge is trousers! if I continue like this then next week I might be able to squeeze into my old jeans.
> 
> Blythe, 100g of 72% choc is a lot! I find eating choc slowly and in miniscule bites really helps. I can spend an hour just enjoying 10gr of choc with tea, takes practice though. weekends and evenings are really hard cos hubby brings home something really tasty and eats it in front of me so quite often I give in.
> 
> the herbs are just the worst, I feel sick even thinking about them. I now add just a little bit of water barely enough for 2 sips cos I really cant take it any more and right after I just have to eat a tiny piece of chocolates to get rid of the bitter taste in my mouth cos otherwise it will stay for ever. I also decided to drink my morning herbs at home cos it's just getting embarrassing in the office. they stink up my room and my hands and everything and I think people are starting to notice. maybe I am just paranoid but anyway it does do much good to my professional image.
> 
> My eyesight is really bad and I do have glasses but my problem is that my eyes are very different, total opposites so it was really tricky to come up with the prescription that can work for both eyes. so it's not the kind of glasses I can just wear all day, i get very tired and cant wear them for long. I will think of something else that can work for my posture but leaning and sticking my chin out for 12-15 hours a day is starting to get to me. I do not have any headache when I am at home so it must be it. quite relieved it's not the herbs cos I was getting worried.



Briss - thats wonderful about the police and your DH's equipment!! Made me LOL :) Its also great you have such a high sex drive around ovulation...a really healthy sign and if you feel you have it more than usual a great sign the herbs are doing something positive. My sex drive has all but gone...i hardly ever feel aroused nowadays...quite sad really....


your comments re your own weigh loss have provided me with lots of inspiration to keep on going. i feel so happy with my nails growing that i feel quite invincible in terms of will power so think i can do anything!! I brought loads of nail varnish at the weekend and cannot wait to buy some new clothes in a smaller size.

What kind of choc do you eat?

When do you next consult with Dr Z's office...i am interested to know what they say about your progress. Lets hope those horrid herbs have done something great inside :thumbup:


----------



## Briss

I used to have really high sex drive regardless of ovulation, literally all the time, I remember suffering from it quite badly at school cos I could not concentrate on anything. the strange thing is that I was by far the last person to lose my virginity, embarrassingly I was 20 when it finally happened. Looking back I am so glad I missed out on teenage sex thing but back then it was a real problem and I tried to conceal it as much as I could which was not hard cos I think I knew about orgasms more than anyone&#8230; LOL, these days it's only before O that I have such sex drive and quite often It's mild because I am under a lot of stress at work and it just kills my drive. Hubby looks so happy that O is over and he is off the hook re sex, I so wish he could match my sex drive&#8230;

Strangely I was supposed to O yesterday but today I got a HUGE amount of EWCM, it's quite rare that I get this much and sex drive is still there, I wonder if my temp is accurate

i also take a pot each day full of tablets to work and discretely (as far as possible) take during the day. to be honest I do not think people know about vitamins and what they are for, well at least I hope they do not. hating these herbs so much, it's been a few hours since I took it and the smell is still there, everywhere around me and the taste as well. 

re weight loss, unfortunately I screwed little bit, yesterday I did not count my calories right and overate as a result, I felt I was really full but thought it was OK, apparently not, I blame root veg salad, this morning I saw a weight gain and quite a lot. did not stop there, had a really intense meeting this morning and decided to treat myself to some shopping (outrages I know instead of heading straight to the office, I turned up at office only by 3 pm but no one seems to notice), did not like it at all cos although I lost weight it's just not enough yet. I need at least another 3-4 pounds before clothes would fit right. disappointing but instead of doing something about it I went to Canary Wharf to have lunch with hubby and had Byron burger (700 calories) followed by a chocolate cake with cappuccino at Paul's (about 500) so basically I cant eat anything else today and I still well over my limit. I am not going to weight in tomorrow cos it'll be distressing. It was going so well&#8230;

your nails is really big thing! reminds me that I am still to deal with my hair problem. 

I eat any kind of choc, it's all about 500-600 calories per 100 gram but I just limit the amount to ideally 30 gr a day which more often turns into 70 but I know I can control it by seeing how much of everything else I eat. 

My next consult with Dr Z's office next Tuesday. reminds me of how much I will have to pay again. I wont think of it now, just too depressing.


----------



## alison29

Blythe another way to cut calories alot is just by cutting out the milk and swithching to unsweetened almond milk..go from 90 cals to 30 a serving. Just a thought..I think I was drinking a lot of cals in milk . you mentioned the nonfat in ceraeal a few posts ago.

I got af on cd28 saturday (no surprise there). So that is where i am at with ttc. cd4. I will try clomid again and hopefully do better at bding this month. The dr put me on vesciare (which is helping my bladder pain) and 3 wks of cipro so fingers crossed i go back in two weeks. They said sometimes the catheter bacteria are really hard to get rid of and i probably wasn't treated long enough at 7 days. IDK or i have a weird bladder pain disease (lovely)! Life goes on though. I am so glad to have what relief i have got for the time being. 

DH hair pull test came back and he has high aluminium (thanks very much cans of beer!) plus intolerance to boiled milk (is that what you guys in UK call it wehn it is pasteruized? the testing company was from UK) and lots of nuts and he eats peanut butter at least 4 times a week and milk everyday. Alot of other things came up on the test too. Intersesting stuff.


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## Briss

Alison, hair pull test sounds very interesting, do you know for sure that aluminum is the result of beer cans? did they tell you why it is bad to have increased aluminum levels? I am worried that my DH may have the same issue.


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## Blythe

Briss said:


> I used to have really high sex drive regardless of ovulation, literally all the time, I remember suffering from it quite badly at school cos I could not concentrate on anything. the strange thing is that I was by far the last person to lose my virginity, embarrassingly I was 20 when it finally happened. Looking back I am so glad I missed out on teenage sex thing but back then it was a real problem and I tried to conceal it as much as I could which was not hard cos I think I knew about orgasms more than anyone LOL, these days it's only before O that I have such sex drive and quite often It's mild because I am under a lot of stress at work and it just kills my drive. Hubby looks so happy that O is over and he is off the hook re sex, I so wish he could match my sex drive
> 
> Strangely I was supposed to O yesterday but today I got a HUGE amount of EWCM, it's quite rare that I get this much and sex drive is still there, I wonder if my temp is accurate
> 
> i also take a pot each day full of tablets to work and discretely (as far as possible) take during the day. to be honest I do not think people know about vitamins and what they are for, well at least I hope they do not. hating these herbs so much, it's been a few hours since I took it and the smell is still there, everywhere around me and the taste as well.
> 
> re weight loss, unfortunately I screwed little bit, yesterday I did not count my calories right and overate as a result, I felt I was really full but thought it was OK, apparently not, I blame root veg salad, this morning I saw a weight gain and quite a lot. did not stop there, had a really intense meeting this morning and decided to treat myself to some shopping (outrages I know instead of heading straight to the office, I turned up at office only by 3 pm but no one seems to notice), did not like it at all cos although I lost weight it's just not enough yet. I need at least another 3-4 pounds before clothes would fit right. disappointing but instead of doing something about it I went to Canary Wharf to have lunch with hubby and had Byron burger (700 calories) followed by a chocolate cake with cappuccino at Paul's (about 500) so basically I cant eat anything else today and I still well over my limit. I am not going to weight in tomorrow cos it'll be distressing. It was going so well
> 
> your nails is really big thing! reminds me that I am still to deal with my hair problem.
> 
> I eat any kind of choc, it's all about 500-600 calories per 100 gram but I just limit the amount to ideally 30 gr a day which more often turns into 70 but I know I can control it by seeing how much of everything else I eat.
> 
> My next consult with Dr Z's office next Tuesday. reminds me of how much I will have to pay again. I wont think of it now, just too depressing.



I think I was around 22-3 when I lost mine. I certainly made up for it though in my late 20s/early 30s :) I was a terribly shy girl so took a while to come out of my shell. 

Was really upset yesterday....this always happens around this point in my cycle. Despite my lovely temps I know I'm not pregnant. I had my pre AF bad mood day and cramps this am. I say down and wrote an for next cycle and already feel better :) DH has agreed to take Chinese herbs so I'm going to get some tablets. Will talk to doc this Sunday. 

I have a fertility scan on Monday on nhs so see what that says. 

Alison. Sorry for AF :hugs:

I did not go to rosemary Conley last night as knew I had not lost weight but back on it now!!


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## Briss

I was not shy actually but I was absolutely terrified of getting pregnant or getting AIDS... no idea why I guess I was brainwashed at school 

I am sorry you were upset yesterday, I hope it's just a coincidence and does not relate to your hormones. You cant know yet for sure if you are pregnant but I completely understand what you mean and I sometimes have this feeling as well. it's heart breaking but it can be wrong, even if this is not this cycle I am so sure you are very close to getting pregnant, remember there is no good reason for you not to be, you are fine and your DH is also fine it's just a matter of time. Cramps do not mean anything because they can be a sign of AF as well BFP. naturally it's better not to have any cramps at all but they do happen. what about the spotting? 

It's really exciting that your DH has agreed to take Chinese herbs! I so wish I could persuade mine. Can you please let me know what herbs he will be taking and also if you could ask your doc about Sheng jing gu ben Wan https://www.chineseherbs.org.uk/formulas/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=188. My previous doc recommended it and my DH was taking it for some time. I wonder what other docs think about this formula for sperm. I asked Dr Zhai for a prescription for my DH but she wants him to do a blood test first, not sure he will agree. 

Good luck with the fertility scan on Monday, it will give you some comfort once you know that everything is OK. 

I totally understand why you did not want to go to rosemary Conley last night. My weight is slightly up last couple of days so I am not very happy. it's still much better than a month ago but I know I could have done so much better. something clicked in me in Barcelona, I let myself go and now I cant hold myself back any more. I am not worried about chocolate that much, I know I can control it but I also started having cappuccinos mid week, more and more often and find it harder to restrain myself, I just enjoy it so much! 

My temp dropped, I hate it when this happens it went up so nicely after O and I was so hoping it will stay up but it dropped and it does that very often, it either goes up really slowly within days or it goes up and then immediately down. not a good sign I think


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## Blythe

temp dips post ovulation are a bleedin' pain!! as soon as i see a dip my PMA disappears....i don't know if its just fluctuating ki yang as my temps stay high sometimes but i spot.....i have been told off by my chinese doc for getting obsessed with my temps and it stressing me out.....

thank you for your words of comfort...they really do help :) I'm ok today and mentally over it now...I'm ready to take on another cycle without sinking :) 

i will ask the doc on sunday about that supplement your DH was taking before. They don't have the largest selection of tablets but im sure they have the key ones and given that fertility treatments must be one of their big earners im sure they will have something to flog me. I will also ask her for a pre ovulation supplement for me. 

i know what you mean about something clicking and giving into temptation....losing weight is a really difficult thing to stick at. I was really in the zone for a couple of weeks and last week i was just really struggling. Today was a good day though. i really want to have control over this area of my life as i know the results will make me feel so so good and i haven't had that feeling for the longest time. i want to wear fitted clothes again and look and feel trim... i think first the nails, then the weight and finish it all off with a BFP.


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## Briss

Good plan! I was talking to a friend today who's been dieting for the last 20 years and just keep putting on more and more weight and actually felt really good about myself. she blamed it on age, metabolic rate etc but I am quite sure it's just willpower, she simply cant stick with it. obviously as we are finding it out it's really hard but we do not need to lose that much so it's of limited duration. the annoying thing is when I go over my 800 calorie limit I end up putting on weight and it takes 2-3 days of strict discipline to shift it back and start all over again. I wonder if i can reach my monday weight tomorrow. went shopping again today and bought a couple of things from H&M, most things did not fit though ...

Unfortunately my DH is back to drinking beer, I am so disappointed 

forgot to drink my evening herbs yesterday, I was preparing myself mentally for this and somehow it just got out of my head, it's subconscious thing I think I so did not want to take it that I simply forgot all about it. I mean I had my share of chinese herbs but these ones are just really bad
Dr Zhai on our first appointment did not see any issues with my post O temp even though it drops sometimes right after O, it might that my pre O temps were so much worse


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## Blythe

Breakfast - skimmed milk and bran flakes & 2 cups of breakfast tea and milk and sugar (sod it i need caffeine and sugar to start my day)
Lunch - orange and cup a soup
Tea - plate of veg and haddock fillet (loads of salt so it tastes of something) no dressings

Some mugs of hot choc (low cal ones)

This is sort of what my weekday diet is looking like and it's working......slowly but surely. 

I saw your post in other section re red clover so have ordered some capsules. I'm going to do bc again next cycle as I like my temps with it. I'm hoping the Chinese herbs DH will be taking will also help. 

I chased up my letter and docs referral for self funded treatment with kings last night. I don't really want to IVF but wouldn't mind having an appt set for a couple of months time as a back up plan...sort of eases the emotional pressure I feel at this time of the month. 

Briss Has your line changed or am I seeing things?


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## Briss

my line changed cos FF moved my O to CD11 and quite rightly so, really hate it when FF starts with my O on cd10

your diet sound really good, quite hard to stick but I think those mugs of hot choc should be helping

I could not resist yet another cappuccino and biscotti at café nero this morning, so having miso soup for lunch and something small and dairy for dinner. I only reached my Sunday levels today, still good but it seems like it is going to take 4 days (if not more) to get back to my lowest weight so far &#8211; seems so unfair for just one slip up

I actually think bc is better than soy products, for some reason I do not trust soy at all

I agree re appointment, it does help that I know I am seeing FS in July and would probably get a referral but I've been putting it off for a about 1.5 years now. depressing that the whole of last year I could not bother with TTC at all cos hubby did not have any valuable count to begin with. all my emotions wasted, so much unless stress &#8230;

I was trying on a dress today at TK Maxx and sent my Dh a picture asking for his opinion and while I know he meant well it came out so wrong, he said this dress makes me look like I have a bump! I got really upset cos so sure I lost weight around tummy and DH was like I thought you wanted a bump&#8230; :( surely not that kind of bump&#8230;


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## Blythe

im not sure if i have mentioned before but i did try soy isoflavines before for a 3 month period. i got very strong ovulation pains with them...real aches. i did not want to continue for longer than 3 months as i was concerned about cysts.

i have been thinking about them on and off this year but i agree that BH is better and looking forward to trying out the red clover capsules.


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## Briss

I am back to my Monday's weight! very happy, finally I got there! I ate so much chocolate yesterday that I was really worried cos I had more calories than 1000 but I think I miscalculated my calories again. that's the thing about counting calories it is not very precise so when I eat something new (I had some dairy instead of meat) you never know whether you got your calories right. I put on my usual dress today and was surprised that it does not feel tight. 

I think I figured why I could not stop with the cappuccinos in the morning this week, it's the herbs! I started taking them at home in the morning and they make me feel really sick and I feel like I urgently need to put something tasty in my mouth so I find it harder to resist when my DH gets himself a latte (we usually leave together in the morning).

My MIL is in hospital, some heart condition so DH is flying to visit her this weekend. I feel quite bad cos she complained about her heart last week and he wanted to go to her but I did not let him cos I was ovulating so now she is in hospital cursing both of us &#8230; I just hope it's nothing serious

My sex drive surprisingly is still there, it's not as bad as before O but quite noticeable. maybe it's the herbs. I noticed that my temps are never high when I have sex drive after O, maybe it means my oestrogen is still high?

I've never tried soy isoflavines because I read a few thread on B&B and quite a few ladies were complaining about it messing up there cycles. there were a few who got really good results but usually ladies who have issues ovulating on their own so I decided it was not for me. 

I also get angry very quickly but with me it does not depend on the cycle, I am just like that unfortunately. I wish I could control it better. will hubby I can make a scene but at work I obviously cant so I am usually just fuming quietly hating everything.

I am sorry your DH does not quite get it with TTC, but blokes are like that, aren't they. At least he is taking his vitamins and BD when required &#8211; this is more than some men are contributing to TTC if you read other stories on B&B. 

I noticed that you do not have spotting this cycle, this is fantastic!! and I really hope it's a good sign


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## vix1972

Hi everyone :flower:

I began my AF on Thursday last week so couldn't be tested as they are shut over the weekend :growlmad: Had a tough day felt very teary and it was all triggered by a close friend who is ttc wanting to see me. I got worried that she would announce she is pg and that I would not know how to react. Starting to wonder if there is anything else I can do to improve my chances and will give radiant wonder a go maybe just get their one size fits all program for starters and see how that goes.


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## Blythe

Briss said:


> I am back to my Monday's weight! very happy, finally I got there! I ate so much chocolate yesterday that I was really worried cos I had more calories than 1000 but I think I miscalculated my calories again. that's the thing about counting calories it is not very precise so when I eat something new (I had some dairy instead of meat) you never know whether you got your calories right. I put on my usual dress today and was surprised that it does not feel tight.
> 
> I think I figured why I could not stop with the cappuccinos in the morning this week, it's the herbs! I started taking them at home in the morning and they make me feel really sick and I feel like I urgently need to put something tasty in my mouth so I find it harder to resist when my DH gets himself a latte (we usually leave together in the morning).
> 
> My MIL is in hospital, some heart condition so DH is flying to visit her this weekend. I feel quite bad cos she complained about her heart last week and he wanted to go to her but I did not let him cos I was ovulating so now she is in hospital cursing both of us  I just hope it's nothing serious
> 
> My sex drive surprisingly is still there, it's not as bad as before O but quite noticeable. maybe it's the herbs. I noticed that my temps are never high when I have sex drive after O, maybe it means my oestrogen is still high?
> 
> I've never tried soy isoflavines because I read a few thread on B&B and quite a few ladies were complaining about it messing up there cycles. there were a few who got really good results but usually ladies who have issues ovulating on their own so I decided it was not for me.
> 
> I also get angry very quickly but with me it does not depend on the cycle, I am just like that unfortunately. I wish I could control it better. will hubby I can make a scene but at work I obviously cant so I am usually just fuming quietly hating everything.
> 
> I am sorry your DH does not quite get it with TTC, but blokes are like that, aren't they. At least he is taking his vitamins and BD when required  this is more than some men are contributing to TTC if you read other stories on B&B.
> 
> I noticed that you do not have spotting this cycle, this is fantastic!! and I really hope it's a good sign


Briss well done :) you are doing so well with your weight loss plan....keep going as i find it very inspiring and it helps keeps me motivated. Im doing ok and hoping by tues to have lost some and feel it enough to go to a weigh in.

I went to fertility yoga earlier and its was heavily focused on meditation. I just cannot do it...i get uncomfortable and my mind wanders! I will go for another couple of weeks though and reassess then.

No spotting for me yet this cycle and less pmt than other cycles so i like my chinese herbs and my bc. I have scan monday and that will be eithe cd1 or the day before although apparently it does not matter what cd this particular scan is done on.

Im sorry to hear about your mil....i hope she improves soon.


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## Blythe

vix1972 said:


> Hi everyone :flower:
> 
> Hi vix.......:flower:
> 
> Oh dear i know that feeling.....i remember being told by a friend she was pregnant and i felt broken hearted. Its awful to say really.....shes due today! I started ttc before she met her husband :( but i am thrilled for her just sad for me. I have no doubt if your friend tells you she is pregnant it will be fine and you will make all the right noises.....act if you need to and if it hurts inside come back on here and get it out of your system. Ttc is tuff and heartbreaking and exhausting and i think all the girls that go through it are pretty amazing.
> 
> If you do try radiant wonder please report back. Im certain we will get our BFPs but just got to keep soldiering on through the crap!
> 
> :hugs::hugs:


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## Blythe

i just brought this for £4 in a second hand shop although i have the first edition and i understand there are many improvements to the second...still very happy as i do love a bargain!

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/0443074895/?tag=hydra0b-21&hvadid=9550932909&ref=asc_df_0443074895


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## Briss

Blythe, no spotting is amazing! finally result!! I really hope there is a good reason behind it :) I absolutely cant do meditation, no idea what I am supposed to do, I cant just not be thinking. I usually feel very confused during meditation. I am very sorry that you felt teary, do not want to raise your hope but I am keeping my fingers crossed re no spotting.

re book - wow real bargain! I wonder how many TCM practitioners in London reading these books :) 

Vix, I totally know how you feel. it's heart breaking but there is no way to avoid your friends getting pregnant and giving birth if you are LTTTC. For others life goes on. I did not find a way to deal with this so as Blythe suggested I just come here and share my pain with the ladies who understand. please do report re radiant wonder if you try it.

I am very happy with my weight loss, new record today!! also I passed the ultimate test - I've managed to squeeze into my jeans without DH's help! amazing feeling!! I still need to lose about 2 kg to get back to my normal weight and jeans did not look that great particularly in front (belly bits were still hanging out a bit) but last month I simply could not put them on, my DF had to force them while I was holding my breath but even then I could not stay in them for more than 5 min cos could not breathe. today I went for 2 hour mountain biking in these jeans :)


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## Briss

this morning, my weight was still the same as yesterday which is great cos I overate yesterday. did not realise that potatoes had so many calories. I had 7 boiled baby potatoes with fish. I know about fries but I thought boiled potatoes were OK, apparently not (50 calories each!). luckily I did some exercise yesterday so it balanced it out. I still cannot believe this is my current weight!!! I do not get any comments from people on losing weight cos I guess it's not noticeable to the outside world, it's not like I was fat and am now slim, it's a very subtle difference between fitting and not fitting into a dress :) on the downside, my breasts are shrinking ... but I knew this was going to happen and was ready for this sacrifice. one good thing about putting on weight is obviously having larger breasts, moved from a/b cup to c! now quite noticeably back to b. oh well, a small price to pay for having a waist :)

My DH is away visiting MIL until Monday and I am enjoying a quiet weekend on my own, it feels so good actually but deep down I know it feels good because it's of short duration if this was my life I would be unhappy, hubby does make me happy... it's unfair that i have to chose between hubby and children, I should be able to have both.

am going to check out my old clothes to see what else I can fit into now :)


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## Blythe

Just returned from acu with new lady doc.....i asked her about Sheng Jing Gu Ben Wan and she did not seem to recognise it although that could be my handwriting. I have come away with 4 x boxes of this for sperm count:

https://www.tcm4u.co.uk/Nan-Bao-Jiao-Nang

i told her my DH's sperm count of 43m [it might be that i cant remember] anyhow she said thats low and that it should be 1 billion....i nearly laughed out loud and just played dumb. What a great shame that so many of these chinese medicine practitioners think we are so dumb we don't know what we are talking about and then try to scare us into buying stuff!! 1 Billion - what a load of tosh!! I will get DH to take the tablets [look like antibiotic tabs] and then if he does not complain too much i will just get them on the web.

I got some more Jin Kui Shen Qi Wan for overall kidney function.....i read some interesting stuff on kidney deficiencies in new book which i will tap out later for you.

The acu session was ok...usual points but she needled ren points on tummy very deep but they did not hurt which was a relief...i will go back to her next week.

i have lots of CM today and looks like may be beginning of AF so hope it stays away until scan done tomorrow afternoon. Really i have avoided usual pre AF cramping but know for sure it is coming. This has been a nice clean cycle and i really feel like I'm close to getting my perfect cycle!!

I showed the lady doc my chart and she could not understand why i was taking my temp everyday...she clearly did not get that it could be used to see anything other than what my temp was...bit disappointing. 

well done on your weight loss achievement.....it really is a great achievement as losing weight is so hard. i did not eat before i went for appt so was quite ravenous when i came out....i went into the £1 shop and they now have syrup waffles...the ones you put on top of coffee cup and the syrup melts....i could have eaten the pack there and then. i have come home and had a cup a soup and will eat veg for lunch. New potatoes are not the lowest in cals and i see them as a treat [how daft!] but i have been eating them this week quite a lot in place on meat.

im now at the point where all further weight loss will result in no tits at all....ive always been a B cup but have been filling bra quite nicely during last year or two. I will have a big gap in bra soon...hey ho. Still i used to be quite flat when i was very slim and it sort of suits my body shape and big boobs would look daft but i have to say I wouldn't mind seeing what it would be like to have big porn star boobs for a week or two :)


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## Briss

i billion??? maybe that's the chinese standard, not surprisingly they are taking over the world while some of us are still yet to reach the elusive 15 mil threshold... thanks for sharing the male herbs, i will check the ingredients and compare to what we were given by my previous doc. so disappointing she could not read your chart, dr Zhai's consultant found it difficult to read my FF chart and prefered their template which is rather not as detailed and my chart looks like it does not even have a temp shift. btw, I am enjoying VIP FF membership for a whole month I think :) I have my next app on tuesday, wonder if they change the herbs cos cant take it any more. really hope it will be back points needled, so much more relaxing then REN and Zigongs even with electrics 

re boobs, to be honest my C cup seemed so huge to me almost porn like, it was sticking out everywhere and so heavy. I was embarrassed to wear open tops cos I thought it looked too provocative. BUT it looked so much better naked :) it balanced my huge hips and I looked like a greek statue. not so good in clothes though. I much prefer flatter chest when you can on occasion not even bother with wearing a bra 

I've been busy trying my skirts, had a bit of a shock when I was searching for my old clothes and could not find any then I suddenly realised that last year I gave most of it away :( completely forgot about it, I was holding on to my old clothes for years in the hope that one day i can wear it again but then last year I decided to make that step and get rid of it cos it seemed inconceivable that I ever return to my previous weight and I knew I was TTC and then hopefully get pregnant so will be on the fat side for a while. did not work out that way. anyway, the skits were a great success - most fit perfectly. I can now broaden what I wear to work by approximately 80%. I left the trousers untouched because feel I need a bit more time for this. also not all skirts looked good yet, I am just measuring by whether i can actually fit in, looking good will take a bit more time.


----------



## Blythe

You have done so well in such a short space of time :) its a great feeling getting into old clothes although, like you, i also had a massive clear out last year with the very same thoughts running through my mind. Oh well....new clothes it is then!!

anyhow, some stuff on kidneys from my new book....

"Central to any KI pathology is the duality of KI yin and KI yang. Although this duality can be observed both in physiology and pathology, it is in disease this is becomes very apparent. KI yin represents the essence and the fluids within the KI. KI yang is the motive force of all physiological processes and it is the root of transformation and movement. KI yin is the material foundation for KI yang, and KI yang is the exterior manifestation of KI yin.....KI yin and KI yang have the same root and they are but two manifestations of the same entity. it follows that in pathological conditions, a deficiency of yin of the KI will also necessarily imply, to a lesser degree, a deficiency of the yang of the KI and vice versa. however, it must be stressed that deficiency will always be primarily either of yin or yang, it can never be 50% yin and 50% yang deficient........" 

so as we have found or been told in our cases one cannot be deficient without the other also being slightly (but to lesser degree) deficient. The tablets i am taking nourish the kidneys...both yin and yang but mostly yang i think. I have found that i get the symptoms of both deficient KI yang and yin but mostly yang.

i had a yearning earlier for chocolate but it is passing....i brought a zumba dance dvd thingy and actually enjoyed it very much. I have decided to not go back to rosemary conley for a while as i would rather spend money on herbs and im in the right mindset to lose weight so it has done its job for the time being...i will do a weekly weigh in at local swimming baths with DH as witness!


----------



## Briss

new clothes it is! i went shopping today and tried everything I fancied in size 8-10! and most things fit. I've bought a couple of basic things (in size 8!), did not want to spend money really, still thinking of my next tuesday appointment and how much I will be required to pay... but I enjoyed the experience and it's been a while since I enjoyed shopping. feels like I am back :)

That's really interesting about yin and yang deficiency, I think mine is probably yin with a little bit of yang. can there be yin deficiency and yang excess? 

I do not have any choc yearnings cos I eat lots of it every day :) that's the beauty of my diet :) but as soon as I get to my target weight I will start eating fruit instead of chocolate and maybe even do another sugar free month. I have not had any fruit for a few weeks now and it's not great but they are really not helping lose weight. I will definitely continue counting calories to make sure I do not put it back on. I think keeping weight down is as hard as losing it

I was actually thinking about zumba dance dvd. which one did you get? 

I weigh myself at home almost every morning and it actually helps me monitor what's going on cos I can see an immediate change in my weight depending on how much I ate the day before so I can adjust my diet accordingly. I also found counting calories on fatsecrets really helpful.

do not feel like going to work tomorrow... I am going to take two weeks off in june and really feel i need a proper holiday but with MIL in hospital not sure how it's going work out


----------



## Briss

last 3 days, my weight did not really change but I know it's cos I am overeating on chocolate. still, am very happy to reach my current weight and stay there for a little while. hopefully, I will manage to stay on track this week and will lose a bit more. I still cant believe it's me! when I weighed myself this morning half of me almost expected to see my usual weight, I am still surprised every time I see my new weight. 

I skipped my vitamins last couple of weeks, not sure why just could not be bothered. will try to be more consistent in taking them. 
 
Finally my temp is moving up and it feels like post O temp. no symptoms or anything. actually looking at my charts I only had sore boobs in TWW before I started taking Chinese medicine, and I think sore boobs is a sign of liver stagnation (rather than a pregnancy symptom)


----------



## Blythe

i went to fertility scan and was told my lining was 'OK', my antral follicle count was between 10-11 which is on low side as normal count is apparently between 11-20 so an indication of low ovarian reserve. 

I also had my bloods taken for AMH testing....i did not know the NHS did that. I think they offered me that as they had forgotten to book my in for a follow up appt and offered me November as first available appt!! Anyhow, some moaning resulted in a follow up appt at end of june where i suspect, based on what the specialist was saying, they will offer me clomid.

found these notes from a fertility centre:


How many antral follicles is "good"?
There is not a perfect answer to this question. Unfortunately, we do not live in a perfect world, and some ovaries have not yet read up on antral follicle counts to know how they are supposed to respond to stimulation.

Antral follicle counts can also be somewhat "observer-dependent". This means that if we had several different trained ultrasonographers do an antral count on a woman, they would not all get exactly the same result. Therefore, what we decide looks like 6 antral follicles, at another clinic might have been read as 4 or 8, etc.

From our own observations and experience, here are some general guidelines:
Total number of antral follicles
Expected response to injectable stimulating drugs and chances for IVF success
Less than 4
Extremely low count, very poor (or no) response to stimulation.
Cycle cancellation is likely.
Should consider not attempting IVF at all.

4-6
Low count, we are concerned about a possible/probable poor response to the stimulation drugs.
Likely to need high doses of FSH product to stimulate ovaries adequately.
Higher than average rate of IVF cycle cancellation.
Lower than average pregnancy rates for those cases that make it to egg retrieval.
7-10
Reduced count
Higher than average rate of IVF cycle cancellation.
Moderately reduced chances for pregnancy success as a group.
11-15
Intermediate count
Response to drug stimulation is sometimes low, but usually adequate.
Slightly increased risk for IVF cycle cancellation.
Pregnancy rates as a group are slightly reduced compared to the "best" group.

16-30
Normal (good) antral count, should have an excellent response to ovarian stimulation.
Likely to respond well to low doses of FSH drugs.
Very low risk for IVF cycle cancellation. Some risk for ovarian overstimulation. 
Verry good pregnancy success rates overall.
Over 30
High count, watch for polycystic ovary type of ovarian response.
Likely to have a high response to low doses of FSH product.
Higher risk for overstimulation and ovarian hyperstimulation syndrome.
Very good pregnancy rate overall.


----------



## Briss

Blythe, I think your antral follicle count is very good. I had no idea that it's so unreliable though. I never had it done properly, when I asked my FS how many follicles I had she just said I had "reasonable amount" whatever it means, probably not great. it's fantastic that you are getting AMH for free! I was begging my FS to send me for it and she refused several times so I did it privately in the end. follow up appt is good &#8211; you will get some answers hopefully. not sure about clomid though, How is it going to help? I would not do clomid cos you have as close to a perfect cycle as it gets really and clomid can easily mess things up. is there anything else that they can offer? if not, I guess you can take all your results to a private IVF clinic, will save you some costs. 

I cant stop it with the chocolate, no idea what's going on but I just cant stop myself. I was so hoping I will have a good day today but I feel I am going to overeat again.


----------



## Blythe

Briss - put it down now!! You have got to keep focused on the image of your soon to be snake like hips :)

I'm not sure about clomid either although am slightly attracted to possibility of two eggs being released though.


----------



## Briss

there is an interesting discussion here on clomid https://babyandbump.momtastic.com/problems-trying-conceive/277019-clomid-already-ovulating.html I am also curious about a possibility to have twins naturally :) 

put all my chocolate in the fridge and sticking to just green tea, not sure how long that will last. I feel like a junky actually, I keep increasing my choc dose cos small doses wont satisfy me anymore :) after a month of no sugar I was happy with a tiny bit but now I go through quite a lot in a day. you are right I really need to stop it, just do not know how. cravings are actually worse than hunger


----------



## Briss

I had my second follow-up appointment at Dr Zhai, was asked the same questions as last time, my tongue seems to get better, looks less red and more normal but the doc said it's not enough to say that the heat has gone. Unfortunately, I got the same herbs!! have my next app next Friday and was promised different herbs this time. Acu was very relaxing, got the usual points: two RENs on my tummy, two above knee, two below knee on the left side and two between my toes, all with electrics. was really relived not to get any Zigongs. 

unfortunately, still no weight loss this morning, that bloody chocolate, I knew it as soon as I said it out loud that I can control my choc urges I was shown differently, it always happens to me like smb is laughing at me

things at work are getting really busy again, got a new deal and I was so hoping to have a quiet summer. the doc said my stress adds to liver stagnation

Hubby returned and looked very sad, although from what I gathered my MIL's condition is not that bad, anyway we now plan our holidays and because of our difference we cant agree on anything, I want somewhere far and hot and he wants to see polar bears &#8230;. it's a nightmare


----------



## Blythe

Hi Briss - this sounds very positive...hopefully they will get rid of that head soon and then just prep you for pregnancy :)

when you get the electrics on all points do you feel it going through your body? ive never had electrics added to needles :( i only ever have a heat lamp put over tummy area.

Keep focused on all of that great work you have done to shift those lbs...you have not put on weight this week and you are still doing very well. it would be nice just to push through and get rid of those final lbs and then you can devise a diet to just maintain your weight. i am managing to avoid the crap still....but eating lots at night.

my work is also incredibly busy and that helps take my mind off food and my inability to get pregnant. i got AF today which is always a relief to be honest as i always know its on way by 10 DPO so those last few days just drag. i like it when it starts because i can start my new supplements and this about my new egg and new possibilities. 

DH is taking his meds without any fuss although has been drinking quite a bit lately...i hope one cancels out the other.

i was a bit down about the appt i had yesterday as my FS has one of those faces that shows no expression and shes not very forthcoming. She told me how many follicles she had detected but it was left to me to question whether this was the cause of my issues. She said maybe. I think she should have been clear that a low follicle count [or in my case it was low side of normal] really means something in terms of IVF etc...i mean im still releasing an egg every month.....you can tell I'm prepping myself for my AMH result!! quite frankly if she had explained things to me with a positive look on her face instead of one that said 'im bored of this...' i would have bounced out of her office!!

all the best with the new deal you are working on....please keep an eye on those long nights in the office and weekend work too.


----------



## Briss

Blythe, very sorry about AF I was so hoping for you cos there was no spotting, such a great sign. fingers crossed for this cycle. what are you planning for this cycle? 

electrics feels like tingling sensation around the needle but not through the entire body. I can feel each needle when they are electrified. it's not painful (unless its Zigong) but can be uncomfortable of it's too strong but you can always ask them to make it weaker. to be honest a heat lamp is so much more pleasurable. I miss it, for some reason they do not use these lamps at Dr Zhai, maybe health and safety issues cos she is not the only doctor in the building. 

The doc was studying my chart for ages but he looked at their form (which i handwritten) rather than my beautiful and far more detailed FF chart but he agreed with FF's O date and actually said that CD11 was not too bad. although last time he said they prefer 13/14.

Your FS could have been more supportive and informative. your FSH is good, scan was good, tubes are open, your chart is perfect and the fact that you might have a lower egg reserve than a 20 year old is no brainer but it does not stop you getting pregnant naturally. even for IVF your count is acceptable, check assisted conception section, ladies are getting lucky with less. for some reason I have this feeling that you wont need an IVF and that its a question of 1-3 cycles before you get your BFP. 

I am slightly disappointed in myself for not being able to control my chocolate addiction. I even feel I may see some weight gain tomorrow morning, dreading it. I was doing much better on dark chocolate cos it's not as tasty I only eat it when I really need to. whereas milk chocolate is a joy that I seem to be unable to resist. I eat it because I want to, not because I am super hungry and I need it, that's my problem. Still, on the positive side I was wearing a skirt today that I was unable to fit into last year. It used to be my favorite skirt but it needed some mending and it took me a while to get round to mending it but when I did I realised that I could not even put it on - it's just too small for me, it was so shocking. I still remember how it looked like when I was trying to squeeze my butt in it :) awful but now I can wear it and it's loose!.

The funny thing is that hubby returned so full of newly acquired love for me (not sure why but I do not mind) so we made love a few times and it's only this morning that he realised that my boobs' gone :) you should have seen his face, it was so cute cos he could not quire understand what was happening but definitely something was not right. so i told him they've gone and it's official LOL

They looked at my hubby's SA and commented that count and morphology is poor. apparently alcohol also creates heat in the body so that's another reason why men should not drink. 

FF says that if I conceived this cycle my due date would be:
February 17, 2014 so that's it, no baby for me in the year of the snake! horoscope lied :( also depressing cos it's my last ovulation before I turn 37, we started TTC when i was 34... very sad

not looking forward to this new deal, it starts with a business trip abroad again next week and there will definitely be late nights this and next week. I finally persuaded hubby to go somewhere warm for holidays but he could not get annual leave for these dates at work. cant believe this I might just have to stay in London for my holiday cos it's ovulation time so I cant go anywhere without hubby. how depressing


----------



## Breaking Dawn

Hi Ladies...

I am not yet 35....(reaching there slowly)....but I came across this Chinese acu thread from a search.

I am on my 2nd cycle of acupunture and herbs with my Chinese dr along with seeing a western FS. My TCM dr is a fertility specialist ....she provides me with herbs for each section of my cycle. 

This cycle I am not taking any meds and only seeing TCM dr and it turns out thru acu and drinking herbs I had major EWCM amd O pain ...

She says I have liver qi stagnation ...


----------



## Blythe

Briss said:


> Blythe, very sorry about AF I was so hoping for you cos there was no spotting, such a great sign. fingers crossed for this cycle. what are you planning for this cycle?
> 
> electrics feels like tingling sensation around the needle but not through the entire body. I can feel each needle when they are electrified. it's not painful (unless its Zigong) but can be uncomfortable of it's too strong but you can always ask them to make it weaker. to be honest a heat lamp is so much more pleasurable. I miss it, for some reason they do not use these lamps at Dr Zhai, maybe health and safety issues cos she is not the only doctor in the building.
> 
> The doc was studying my chart for ages but he looked at their form (which i handwritten) rather than my beautiful and far more detailed FF chart but he agreed with FF's O date and actually said that CD11 was not too bad. although last time he said they prefer 13/14.
> 
> Your FS could have been more supportive and informative. your FSH is good, scan was good, tubes are open, your chart is perfect and the fact that you might have a lower egg reserve than a 20 year old is no brainer but it does not stop you getting pregnant naturally. even for IVF your count is acceptable, check assisted conception section, ladies are getting lucky with less. for some reason I have this feeling that you wont need an IVF and that its a question of 1-3 cycles before you get your BFP.
> 
> I am slightly disappointed in myself for not being able to control my chocolate addiction. I even feel I may see some weight gain tomorrow morning, dreading it. I was doing much better on dark chocolate cos it's not as tasty I only eat it when I really need to. whereas milk chocolate is a joy that I seem to be unable to resist. I eat it because I want to, not because I am super hungry and I need it, that's my problem. Still, on the positive side I was wearing a skirt today that I was unable to fit into last year. It used to be my favorite skirt but it needed some mending and it took me a while to get round to mending it but when I did I realised that I could not even put it on - it's just too small for me, it was so shocking. I still remember how it looked like when I was trying to squeeze my butt in it :) awful but now I can wear it and it's loose!.
> 
> The funny thing is that hubby returned so full of newly acquired love for me (not sure why but I do not mind) so we made love a few times and it's only this morning that he realised that my boobs' gone :) you should have seen his face, it was so cute cos he could not quire understand what was happening but definitely something was not right. so i told him they've gone and it's official LOL
> 
> They looked at my hubby's SA and commented that count and morphology is poor. apparently alcohol also creates heat in the body so that's another reason why men should not drink.
> 
> FF says that if I conceived this cycle my due date would be:
> February 17, 2014 so that's it, no baby for me in the year of the snake! horoscope lied :( also depressing cos it's my last ovulation before I turn 37, we started TTC when i was 34... very sad
> 
> not looking forward to this new deal, it starts with a business trip abroad again next week and there will definitely be late nights this and next week. I finally persuaded hubby to go somewhere warm for holidays but he could not get annual leave for these dates at work. cant believe this I might just have to stay in London for my holiday cos it's ovulation time so I cant go anywhere without hubby. how depressing

Thank you much for your words of comfort. They have done the job of picking me right up and I'm back on track :)

Will reply properly later today:flower:


----------



## Blythe

Breaking Dawn said:


> Hi Ladies...
> 
> I am not yet 35....(reaching there slowly)....but I came across this Chinese acu thread from a search.
> 
> I am on my 2nd cycle of acupunture and herbs with my Chinese dr along with seeing a western FS. My TCM dr is a fertility specialist ....she provides me with herbs for each section of my cycle.
> 
> This cycle I am not taking any meds and only seeing TCM dr and it turns out thru acu and drinking herbs I had major EWCM amd O pain ...
> 
> She says I have liver qi stagnation ...


Hi breaking dawn :)

Welcome! I hope your time on these boards is brief and you are over onto pregnancy boards soon :) 

It's great you are working with a tcm practitioner who specialises in fertility.....I think this is key. One of our biggest grumbles has been that we get the same points needled and same herbs throughout month but it seems not to be the case for you which is great. Are you on pills or powdered herbs? What are the name of the herbs you are taking? It's great you Are noticing the effects already in terms of increased cm etc :thumbup:

Briss - did dr z say you also have some liver qi stagnation?


----------



## Briss

Hi breaking dawn, I also have liver qi stagnation and together with excess heat these are my major problems at the moment. Just like Blythe, I take the same herbs throughout the cycle. although my doc needles different points: before O I got points on my back and after O the usual tummy/legs points. do you get electrics on your needles?


----------



## Blythe

Briss said:


> Blythe, very sorry about AF I was so hoping for you cos there was no spotting, such a great sign. fingers crossed for this cycle. what are you planning for this cycle?
> 
> electrics feels like tingling sensation around the needle but not through the entire body. I can feel each needle when they are electrified. it's not painful (unless its Zigong) but can be uncomfortable of it's too strong but you can always ask them to make it weaker. to be honest a heat lamp is so much more pleasurable. I miss it, for some reason they do not use these lamps at Dr Zhai, maybe health and safety issues cos she is not the only doctor in the building.
> 
> The doc was studying my chart for ages but he looked at their form (which i handwritten) rather than my beautiful and far more detailed FF chart but he agreed with FF's O date and actually said that CD11 was not too bad. although last time he said they prefer 13/14.
> 
> Your FS could have been more supportive and informative. your FSH is good, scan was good, tubes are open, your chart is perfect and the fact that you might have a lower egg reserve than a 20 year old is no brainer but it does not stop you getting pregnant naturally. even for IVF your count is acceptable, check assisted conception section, ladies are getting lucky with less. for some reason I have this feeling that you wont need an IVF and that its a question of 1-3 cycles before you get your BFP.
> 
> I am slightly disappointed in myself for not being able to control my chocolate addiction. I even feel I may see some weight gain tomorrow morning, dreading it. I was doing much better on dark chocolate cos it's not as tasty I only eat it when I really need to. whereas milk chocolate is a joy that I seem to be unable to resist. I eat it because I want to, not because I am super hungry and I need it, that's my problem. Still, on the positive side I was wearing a skirt today that I was unable to fit into last year. It used to be my favorite skirt but it needed some mending and it took me a while to get round to mending it but when I did I realised that I could not even put it on - it's just too small for me, it was so shocking. I still remember how it looked like when I was trying to squeeze my butt in it :) awful but now I can wear it and it's loose!.
> 
> The funny thing is that hubby returned so full of newly acquired love for me (not sure why but I do not mind) so we made love a few times and it's only this morning that he realised that my boobs' gone :) you should have seen his face, it was so cute cos he could not quire understand what was happening but definitely something was not right. so i told him they've gone and it's official LOL
> 
> They looked at my hubby's SA and commented that count and morphology is poor. apparently alcohol also creates heat in the body so that's another reason why men should not drink.
> 
> FF says that if I conceived this cycle my due date would be:
> February 17, 2014 so that's it, no baby for me in the year of the snake! horoscope lied :( also depressing cos it's my last ovulation before I turn 37, we started TTC when i was 34... very sad
> 
> not looking forward to this new deal, it starts with a business trip abroad again next week and there will definitely be late nights this and next week. I finally persuaded hubby to go somewhere warm for holidays but he could not get annual leave for these dates at work. cant believe this I might just have to stay in London for my holiday cos it's ovulation time so I cant go anywhere without hubby. how depressing



A looming birthday is depressing when TTC, as is any milestone really. it just brings home what a long shitty journey this has become. Did you take the weeks off in june for your birthday? im sorry that you may not get away...it would have been nice to fly off somewhere away from everything familiar.

How are those chocolate cravings going? i dont mind dark chocolate but milk chocolate is defo my favourite....i love good old dairy milk and used to love it with a cup of tea so the chucks would melt in my mouth...yum! I have been doing some arm weights when i get up in the morning as my arms are flabby and i really want to look great when i have got this weight off.


----------



## Breaking Dawn

Hi Ladies,

Thanks for your reply!

Yes, I get different acupuncture points throughout the month and powdered herbs. 

It goes something like this:
CD7: acu points on my back (i'm lying on my tummy) + powdered herbs #1
CD10: acu points range from forehead, inner wrists, lower legs, ankles, foot, ovaries, uterus + powdered herbs #2
CD12: similar to CD10 but a few are different + continue with herbs #2
CD17: similar to CD10 but a few are different (and she will do moxibustion) + herbs #3
CD23: same as cd17

If I were to get a bfp after CD 23 then I would see her again...but when I got a bfn, I just call her to let her know I will see her on CD7 again.

Also, she does not use any electric current...she is very traditional Chinese practitioner. Because I have cold rather then excess heat...she likes to do moxibuston along with the needles when I am in the tww. it warms the uterus.

I noticed that the powered herbs taste better as I go through the cycle...the first batch at cd7 is usally stronger tasting....

sorry I don't know the prper name of the concoction of herbs she gives me....but would the actually break down help? ie it's usually a mix of 8-10 herbs and she gives me a receipt with the names.


----------



## Briss

hubby could not get time off work, this is so disappointing, after i finally managed to convinced him to go somewhere hot like Mexico for 2 weeks and he agreed which is a miracle on its own, his bloody bosses would not give him two weeks off, he can go in july but unless I take 2 weeks in june I lose them so i have no choice. this is just disappointing. also the first week is my O so I cant really go away on my own i must be around hubby. maybe I will find a company for the second week to go somewhere in Europe. but that's not a holiday that would set me up for another year of hard work...

chocolate cravings are still bad, today again no weight loss but at this point just happy I am not gaining. without holiday plans my motivation to lose weight is decreasing I have to say and it's harder to resist chocolate. 

i do not celebrate my birthdays these days, just trying to forget, i usually try to start getting used to new age a few months in advance but this year I lost track of this and now 37 comes as a shock really, am I still not pregnant? just 3 more months to get pregnant and have a baby at 37 but most likely we are looking at 38... (if I am lucky) and start TTC my second when I am 40. this is just too much. i cant even remember what I did at 36, just TTC nothing else to remember it by


----------



## Briss

Breaking Dawn, it's great that your acu doc is so thorough and applies different points depending on where you are in your cycle, I personally think this is the best approach. unfortunately, I have not had such experience, all docs I've been to tend to just give you the same herbs/acu points every time. We are currently concentrating to clearing my excess heat so I guess it makes sense that I get the same herbs cos they are not fixing my cycle yet but dealing with a more general problem. It would be interesting to know the names of the herbs you are taking at each point in your cycle. we have read a text book explaining this method so would be interesting to compare our notes. 

I've finally managed to shift some more weight! so happy!! I will probably go to Germany to visit a friend who is also 37 and is divorcing her 3rd husband at the moment, she needs to find a fourth one before she can start TTC so I will be in good company I think. also she is tall, blonde and terribly skinny (borderline anorexic) so I am glad I've lost a bit of weight and look more like my old self


----------



## Jazzbird

Hello 

Just thought I'd introduce myself. I'm 36,ttc my first and I'm also an acupuncturist. I'm not here touting for business ;-) just thought if you have any acupuncture queries I'd be happy to answer them. 

Good luck to everyone


----------



## smurfy

Jazzbird said:


> Hello
> 
> Just thought I'd introduce myself. I'm 36,ttc my first and I'm also an acupuncturist. I'm not here touting for business ;-) just thought if you have any acupuncture queries I'd be happy to answer them.
> 
> Good luck to everyone

Hello there welcome

I have started using acupunture since Feb and wanted to know what you would recomend in terms of treatment/timing on trying to reduce cycle time and improve egg white. My cycles are approx 32-36 not really bad but would make TTC a little easier if didnt have to wait so long and could try more often

Thanks


----------



## Jazzbird

smurfy said:


> Jazzbird said:
> 
> 
> Hello
> 
> Just thought I'd introduce myself. I'm 36,ttc my first and I'm also an acupuncturist. I'm not here touting for business ;-) just thought if you have any acupuncture queries I'd be happy to answer them.
> 
> Good luck to everyone
> 
> Hello there welcome
> 
> I have started using acupunture since Feb and wanted to know what you would recomend in terms of treatment/timing on trying to reduce cycle time and improve egg white. My cycles are approx 32-36 not really bad but would make TTC a little easier if didnt have to wait so long and could try more often
> 
> ThanksClick to expand...

Hi Smurfy

Nice to meet you 

It's difficult to say what is causing the long cycle - I'd probably need to see your chart to understand what could be causing a longer cycle - for example, I would need to understand whether you ovulate late in the cycle? Does your BBT take a long time to rise, or does it jump immediately? What is the average temp in the a) follicular phase and b) luteal phase? Is the temperature stable in both phases or does it fluctuate quite significantly?

The acupuncturist then needs to note symptoms as well - do you feel hot at night? have problems sleeping? And lots of other questions about your general health - I'm sure you've been through them with your acupuncturist.

Having studied acupuncture for 4 years, I would wholeheartedly recommend taking chinese herbal supplements as well. These are brilliant at reworking your cycle to make it more standardised. Typically you can take follicle stimulating herbs in the first half of the cycle (e.g. lieu wei di huang wan) and then switch to yang supporting herbs following ovulation (e.g. you gui wan) - although you need to see a Chinese herbalist really so that they can tailor make the herbs according to your diagnosis. Herbs are also excellent in the treatment of male infertility - improving sperm count, motility & morphology.

As we age, the "yin" substance declines naturally. This substance is responsible for cooling, moistening & resting energy in the body. If a person is yin deficient, they can suffer with dry symptoms - dry eyes, dry skin etc. & can develop hot flushes. So I would probably say that scanty CM is as a result of yin deficiency. And long cycles can also result from yin deficiency - as the yin is lacking to grow the follicle and it therefore takes a long time to develop.

Again, herbs work brilliantly for yin deficiency. But you can also help to build yin by resting more, go to bed early, ensure you sleep as much as possible - avoid heating foods (alcohol, caffeine, greasy food etc.), avoid high impact exercise and substitute for more relaxing exercise - yoga, pilates, qigong. Meditation is also good for building yin. Stress can also elongate a cycle - so its really important not to stress - difficult I know & hard if your job is stressful.

Having a good diet is very important. Generally speaking avoid wheat, dairy, sugar (I know miserable) and eat plenty of whole grains (brown rice, oats, pearl barley) and mix with loads of fresh vegetables. Avoid too much raw fruit. Eat good quality meat - and ensure you eat 2 portions of red meat per week. This is essential for building up the blood.

There is so much to explain about chinese medicine, there is a book called the Baby Making Bible which is written for people who don't have knowledge of Chinese Medicine.

The only other thing I would mention is that acupuncture and herbs combined take time to take effect. Follicles grow in a 3 month cycle, so herbs you take today will start to come to fruition in 3 months time ... so its definitely a long term treatment which unfortunately can make it costly.

On a personal note, I have been TTC for 6 months, am 36 and have been having acupuncture and herbs for 3 months. No joy yet, but I have seen my cycles improve dramatically. I started with 35 day long cycles (although these can vary from 31-35), ovulating between day 18 and day 21. My temperature was only slightly biphasic and took ages to rise. Now my last cycle was 30 days, ovulated day 16, temperature in 2nd half was much higher and rose very quickly. So I can see the acupuncture and herbs work ... 

I guess it comes down to the fact that acupuncture and herbs can improve the environment to make it perfect for conception ... but there is still so many other mechanisms that need to take place for a conception to occur.


----------



## Briss

Hi Jazzbird and welcome! it's really great to have a proper acu practitioner here. Do you also do herbs? Can you recommend anything to improve my follicular phase and clear excess heat? It would also be good to improve egg quality if you know how. generally my problem is high FSH and low AMH which suggests I am getting old slightly before my time and may have egg quality issues. I also tend to ovulated on CD 11 which means I have shorter follicular phase and may not have enough time for egg to develop (I did many scans and my uterine lining is OK). My previous acu doc was giving me herbal formula to clear heat that made me develop really bad acne &#8211; I still do not understand whether this means she did something wrong or on the contrary it was indication that the heat was leaving my system? anyway, my current doc says it was wrong formula for me cos I had shorter cycles around 24/25 days while I was on it. At the moment I am on xiao yao san and qing ying san.

Got a bit more weight off this morning! I am still in disbelief that I actually managed to lose enough to change my size and that I can now wear over 90% of my wardrobe without having difficulty breathing, such an amazing feeling. I still have about 4 pounds to lose before I reach my old weight and obviously I am still unclear what I would need to do to keep this weight and not go back but so far so good. 

have really hard time with coffee, for almost a year I managed not to go near this stuff during the week and only allowed myself a tiny cup on weekends but it never got easy it was a struggle every morning, I was very unhappy, I just love coffee!! nothing I can do about it. I noticed that I started having morning cappuccinos more and more often cos they make me so happy. am I ruining my chances? coffee and chocolate &#8211; the two things I cant live without. I've tried and tried but I cant, when I do I just feel unhappy and struggle with my urges practically every minute. any advice?

Can you believe this?? https://uk.lifestyle.yahoo.com/woma...#8217;t-know-she-was-pregnant--130506145.html


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## Jazzbird

Hey Briss

Unfortunately, I'm not a qualified herbalist, although I'd love to be. It cost around £15K to become an Acupuncturist in UK and I'd have to find another £5K to study for herbs. Having said that, I understand what the formulas do ... but I can't really advise on specific formulas.

There is an interesting article on improving eqq quality with a similar diagnosis to yours (I suspect based on the formulas your acupuncturist has prescribed, that you may have kidney yin deficiency with heat). The woman in the article is 45. Its important to remember that acupuncture is not an either/or diagnosis, but a sliding scale. So you can have the same diagnosis as someone even though you have different symptoms. I have been diagnosed with kidney yin deficiency, which usually presents with signs of heat, but I'm always cold  This is because I'm also yang deficient. Here is the article:

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&r..._PyiQegJzP3MtMxSga3nmVA&bvm=bv.47534661,d.d2k

What sort of herbs are you taking? Are they tea pills, powder or in raw form where you have to boil? I have heard that the powder/raw herbs are more powerful than tea pills.

I can't really answer about the outbreak of acne as I'm not a herbal expert. You can have reactions to herbs, although I've not heard of anyone breaking out in acne.

So you are currently on xiao yao san. This is a formula that treats something called "liver qi stagnation". Its basically stuck energy in the liver channel which runs through the uterus and breasts. It can be caused by stress and often causes PMS symptoms - bad cramping, mood swings, irregular cycles. Its very common amongst women.

The other formula qing ying san - is for cooling the blood and nourishing yin. If there is too much heat, then it causes premature ovulation when the follicle is not fully developed. 

It sounds as though you are on the right track with your acupuncturist. It will take time for the treatments to start showing an effect.

The best thing to do with a heat diagnosis & this sounds obvious - but it is to avoid foods, drink & environments that are heating. No bikram yoga, saunas or steam rooms, limit alcohol & caffeine, no greasy food, no spicy food either. I hear you on the caffeine front (I'm addicted to PG tips) and my own personal opinion is that it is better to have a *little* of what you fancy than to have a miserable existence. Can you live with one cappuccino per day? If so, I'd take it as your guilty pleasure. If you can then try and make all the other lifestyle changes - it'll go a long way.

I have no idea what your lifestyle has been like up until now. I worked and played very hard in London for years. I worked long hours, studied, skipped meals and drank a lot of gin & tonic  I stopped being able to sleep & eventually winded up at an acupuncturist totally desperate a few years later. Diagnosis was Yin deficiency, or like a burnout syndrome. After SIX MONTHS of weekly acupuncture and herbs, I finally started to sleep again. I've not had any relapse since then.

What this whole thing taught me is that I have a natural tendency to be yin deficient. Which means that busy environments, long working hours, hectic lifestyles & partying have a particularly detrimental affect on my wellbeing. So now I live a very sedate life - and really guard my yin.

Activities that burn yin: staying up late, working long hours, commuting too long, hectic lifestyles, spending too much time in front of computer/tv, worrying, too much high impact exercise

Activities that nourish yin: go to bed early, me time, meditation, yoga, pilates, quiet time ... 

So in a nutshell, if you have been diagnosed with yin deficiency & you should definitely talk to your acupuncturist and get her to tell you all about your diagnosis. What is it in terms of Chinese Medicine (yin? heat? yang? liver qi stagnation? etc.) and what that means in laymen's terms ... and then ask what you should be doing at home lifestyle wise to help. Also ask what bits of your chart correspond to your diagnosis - and ask him/her what you should be looking out for as signs of success. This is really helpful in long term treatment to know you are making progress.

Oh I nearly forgot, apparently eating eggs - fish eggs or hens eggs is excellent for follicle growth! Also drinking soya milk in moderation. Eat/drink them in the first half of your cycle.


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## Briss

This is so interesting! thank you so much for explaining this, so helpful! 

although I seem to have signs of heat I'm also always cold. Does it mean I also have yang deficiency? Blythe and I discovered that apparently you cant have just kidney yin or yang deficiency, you will have both but one more than the other. is this correct?

My herbs are powder which I dissolve in hot water twice a day. I took raw herbs for 2 weeks before these ones but it was a different formula. 

I was told that I have liver qi stagnation probably as you said caused by stress. Although I do not really have PMS symptoms, maybe a bit of cramping or an odd headache on CD1

I can certainly live on 1 cappuccino a day, so relieved to hear that!

My lifestyle is mainly just work, I am a city girl so being over stressed and overworked on a daily basis. as you said: busy environments, long working hours, staying up late, spending too much time in front of computer/tv, worrying but I do not do partying (probably too tired and old). whenever I do not have to be at work I just stay at home and chill out. I try not to drink alcohol at all, it's only on very rare occasions when I cant avoid it but even then I try to just go round with a glass of wine pretending to be drinking it. I eat well I think except for chocolate. I do tend to overheat my apartment because I am always so cold. 

when you say I need quiet time, what is this? something like reading a book? would spending time on B&B do? my doc did tell me to go to bed before 11 pm, not easily achieved when I only get home from work after midnight&#8230; 

have you heard about Dr Zhai's clinic? that's where I am being treated at moment. I wonder if you have "inside" knowledge about her practice? 

fish eggs? is it like caviar? If so, I am so lucky I absolutely love caviar!!!


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## Briss

Blythe said:


> Briss said:
> 
> 
> Blythe, very sorry about AF I was so hoping for you cos there was no spotting, such a great sign. fingers crossed for this cycle. what are you planning for this cycle?
> 
> electrics feels like tingling sensation around the needle but not through the entire body. I can feel each needle when they are electrified. it's not painful (unless its Zigong) but can be uncomfortable of it's too strong but you can always ask them to make it weaker. to be honest a heat lamp is so much more pleasurable. I miss it, for some reason they do not use these lamps at Dr Zhai, maybe health and safety issues cos she is not the only doctor in the building.
> 
> The doc was studying my chart for ages but he looked at their form (which i handwritten) rather than my beautiful and far more detailed FF chart but he agreed with FF's O date and actually said that CD11 was not too bad. although last time he said they prefer 13/14.
> 
> Your FS could have been more supportive and informative. your FSH is good, scan was good, tubes are open, your chart is perfect and the fact that you might have a lower egg reserve than a 20 year old is no brainer but it does not stop you getting pregnant naturally. even for IVF your count is acceptable, check assisted conception section, ladies are getting lucky with less. for some reason I have this feeling that you wont need an IVF and that its a question of 1-3 cycles before you get your BFP.
> 
> I am slightly disappointed in myself for not being able to control my chocolate addiction. I even feel I may see some weight gain tomorrow morning, dreading it. I was doing much better on dark chocolate cos it's not as tasty I only eat it when I really need to. whereas milk chocolate is a joy that I seem to be unable to resist. I eat it because I want to, not because I am super hungry and I need it, that's my problem. Still, on the positive side I was wearing a skirt today that I was unable to fit into last year. It used to be my favorite skirt but it needed some mending and it took me a while to get round to mending it but when I did I realised that I could not even put it on - it's just too small for me, it was so shocking. I still remember how it looked like when I was trying to squeeze my butt in it :) awful but now I can wear it and it's loose!.
> 
> The funny thing is that hubby returned so full of newly acquired love for me (not sure why but I do not mind) so we made love a few times and it's only this morning that he realised that my boobs' gone :) you should have seen his face, it was so cute cos he could not quire understand what was happening but definitely something was not right. so i told him they've gone and it's official LOL
> 
> They looked at my hubby's SA and commented that count and morphology is poor. apparently alcohol also creates heat in the body so that's another reason why men should not drink.
> 
> FF says that if I conceived this cycle my due date would be:
> February 17, 2014 so that's it, no baby for me in the year of the snake! horoscope lied :( also depressing cos it's my last ovulation before I turn 37, we started TTC when i was 34... very sad
> 
> not looking forward to this new deal, it starts with a business trip abroad again next week and there will definitely be late nights this and next week. I finally persuaded hubby to go somewhere warm for holidays but he could not get annual leave for these dates at work. cant believe this I might just have to stay in London for my holiday cos it's ovulation time so I cant go anywhere without hubby. how depressing
> 
> 
> great news you and DH are getting on so well....i literally cannot remember the last time i snogged my DH.......BD is quick and efficient with no gazing into each others eyes...no no no!
> 
> A looming birthday is depressing when TTC, as is any milestone really. it just brings home what a long shitty journey this has become. Did you take the weeks off in june for your birthday? im sorry that you may not get away...it would have been nice to fly off somewhere away from everything familiar.
> 
> How are those chocolate cravings going? i dont mind dark chocolate but milk chocolate is defo my favourite....i love good old dairy milk and used to love it with a cup of tea so the chucks would melt in my mouth...yum! I have been doing some arm weights when i get up in the morning as my arms are flabby and i really want to look great when i have got this weight off.Click to expand...

Blythe, how are you doing? any news on your DH's job situation?


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## Jazzbird

Bugg*r. I just wrote a long reply and because I haven't posted 10 times I can't post links or something.

Yes you are correct - if you have kidney yin or yang, you are more likely to get the other. They are interdependent, not mutually exclusive. So its common to see both together. One is usually more primary like you say - but there are herbal formulas that address both. The Kidneys are like the life battery (this is known as Kidney Jing) and so as you age the battery gradually drains. In women this often manifests as Kidney Yin deficiency and our crazy, busy lives are not conducive to preserving yin.

So it sounds like they put you on some strong herbs - which is good. I checked out your clinic, they look very impressive - with some impressive credentials. I don't have any insider knowledge at all - I do think you can sometimes pay more just because they are on Harley Street, but then I bet the rent is astronomical on that street too!!!

Home after midnight is TERRIBLE! I can't tell you how bad that is for Yin & I'm willing to bet its the primary cause of your Yin deficiency. It is frustrating to treat someone that has a lifestyle which is causing the syndrome ... its like pouring water into a bucket with a hole. Ideally, getting home and eating before 7pm is advisable. Having one to two hours of quiet time before bed, then getting to sleep at 11 or before is the gold standard. 

But this is the antithesis to the Western World, where are minds are totally overstimulated and our bodies under stimulated for 90% of the time, except for 10% where we're pounding up and down on apparatus in a 24 hour gym!

Quiet time is time without books, computers and TV! I know, what else is there to do?! Quiet time is contemplative time. Time for gentle yoga, meditation, pilates. Anything that either connects the mind with the body (yoga, pilates, qigong) or stills the mind. I find for example, stroking my cat incredibly peaceful and reassuring. Even watching the way he breathes - is incredibly relaxing. Having a cuddle with OH without TV is also good for building yin. Try a hypnosis CD, they are great for relaxing - especially if you have 20 minutes to spare at work and somewhere you can go. Meditation is the gold standard for building yin - but its hard to jump right into it when you're stressed at work - which is why yoga/qigong bring the body and mind back into balance and then meditation can be achieved more easily.

But you can meditate doing every day tasks. Cleaning your teeth for example - really focusing on thinking about the act of cleaning your teeth for the 2 minutes you clean them. When we are children, this is what we do naturally. We get lost in every moment. We are in the present. When we are adults we are either worrying about something we have done or have to do that we lose large portions of time in our heads.

Meditation is a means to bringing your attention back to each passing moment. And you can do this all day. This will help to bring your stress down. 

Having said all this, I know how hard it is to bring all of this into a world where time is money and everything has to be done yesterday. Some companies would just laugh if you said you had to leave the office before 7! I left KPMG for that very reason! 

And yes, caviar I believe is good for follicle growth 

For anyone else looking for affordable chinese herb/acupuncture. Try some of the accredited training institutions. In Reading, Berkshire - you have College of Integrated Chinese Medicine. In London - you have Asante Academy in North London - affiliated with Middlesex University & I think Westminster university have one.

They all offer reduced rates if you are happy to be seen by a student. All student diagnosis are checked by experienced practitioners.


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## Blythe

Briss - how are you? well done mrs on your fab weight loss...only 4 lbs to go - thats brilliant :happydance: 

Germany will be nice and hot this time of year...i love Germany and Germans generally...i used to go there on and off for work.

i am still losing but very slowly but i have to say i feel in control and thats a great feeling....i will be doing some zumba in front of the tv this weekend....its an interactive one for my xbox kinect thing...im not at all into gaming and only brought it for the exercise stuff....its been well worth the money.

your temps look very nice this month compared to last...i do hope thats those horrid herbs helping out there....there is much less fluctuation which can only be a good thing.

we are meant to be getting on a train tomorrow and just heading to the coast for the day...the idea being that we escape all our troubles for at least a few hours. No baby talk, no new house/mortgage talk, no money talk....jeeeeeez we will sit there in silence!!

i got my consult forms from Kings so need to call them to make initial appt on first day of next cycle. I'm thinking of putting off for another month as i really want to put it off until the end of the year. i will see.....


Jazzbird - cant tell you how thrilled i am that you have joined us [obviously not thrilled you have been ttc for 6 months :(] so we can draw on your expertise.

i have been really trying to nourish yang post ovulation to keep my temps nice and high and steady and i think ive now managed that. Im trying to keep costs down so have given up on powdered herbs and now taking the little pills. i have been taking jin kui shen qi wan post ovulation but they suggested i also take it throughout cycle but I'm not going to. my understanding is that it is more of a KI yang tonic rather than ki yin and its all about the yin in the first half of the cycle...isnt it?

i go to a chinese practitioner and they don't really amend their treatments throughout my cycle...they tend to needle the following points most sessions. To be honest it takes so long to try and explain stuff that I've given up. i mentioned the word progesterone once and they hadn't a clue what i was on about.

Large Int 12
ST 36
ST 33
SP 8/9
KI 7/8
REN 3/4 & 6
ZIGONGS
Liver 2
Liver 11
sometimes Liver 4
one on top of head and one between eyebrows

I have to say after 5/6 months of treatment [and a couple of months before that last year] the benefits are only now starting to come through...ive been feeling more confident and in control of things so feel i have some more balance in life which is good. My cycle is ok but was sort of ok before....ive still got zero sex drive which is a bit crap as i used to be a huge tart :)

Just out of curiosity - do you ever needle yourself or do you always go to someone else for treatments?


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## Jazzbird

Blythe said:


> Jazzbird - cant tell you how thrilled i am that you have joined us [obviously not thrilled you have been ttc for 6 months :(] so we can draw on your expertise.
> 
> i have been really trying to nourish yang post ovulation to keep my temps nice and high and steady and i think ive now managed that. Im trying to keep costs down so have given up on powdered herbs and now taking the little pills. i have been taking jin kui shen qi wan post ovulation but they suggested i also take it throughout cycle but I'm not going to. my understanding is that it is more of a KI yang tonic rather than ki yin and its all about the yin in the first half of the cycle...isnt it?
> 
> i go to a chinese practitioner and they don't really amend their treatments throughout my cycle...they tend to needle the following points most sessions. To be honest it takes so long to try and explain stuff that I've given up. i mentioned the word progesterone once and they hadn't a clue what i was on about.
> 
> Large Int 12
> ST 36
> ST 33
> SP 8/9
> KI 7/8
> REN 3/4 & 6
> ZIGONGS
> Liver 2
> Liver 11
> sometimes Liver 4
> one on top of head and one between eyebrows
> 
> I have to say after 5/6 months of treatment [and a couple of months before that last year] the benefits are only now starting to come through...ive been feeling more confident and in control of things so feel i have some more balance in life which is good. My cycle is ok but was sort of ok before....ive still got zero sex drive which is a bit crap as i used to be a huge tart :)
> 
> Just out of curiosity - do you ever needle yourself or do you always go to someone else for treatments?


Hellooooo!

I'm really surprised that your practitioner is not changing the treatment at different times of the month. You are spot on: Its Kidney Yin up to ovulation and then Kidney Yang after. It does depend on what their diagnosis is - so I wouldn't want to pour water over what they are doing, but I personally don't know any acupuncturist who wouldn't change their treatment at different times during the cycle.

Also the list of points doesn't say which technique they use. You can tonify a point which means to boost the energy. Or you can take energy away if its in excess or stuck. But the techniques for the two differ between practitioners so its not always easy to tell.

I really feel its important to have someone who can understand the Western diagnosis and can actually communicate! To be honest, I've found some of the high street Chinese practitioners variable. Some are brilliant, and some aren't. So I'd always go with a practitioner accredited by the British Acupuncture Council. Also - the medical profession have decided that they can see the benefits in some acupuncture and have created their own branch and called the British Medical Acupuncture Society. Doctors and physios can go for a weekend's training in this stripped down version of acupuncture and start practicing. Whereas oriental acupuncturists have to train for 3.5+ years. Because medical acupuncture isn't the full story, I think it can give acupuncture a bad rap.

Sorry to hear about your sex drive ... I'm similar and its a killer when to trying to conceive. I had to laugh at your tart comment  I guess its harder when its always with the same person. Who wants to eat spag bol every day for the rest of their lives!!!

I used to needle myself when training - just to practice putting in the needle and sometimes when I have period cramps at 4am I'll pop a couple in my feet. But my OH is also a non-practicing acupuncturist (not a very good one mind you ... he doesn't like needles!!!) - so if I'm DESPERATE I'll ask him!!! They don't advise needling yourself because there is the theory that the practitioner's energy and intention is being transferred through the needle - so if you needle yourself you're sort of short circuiting the energy... ??! 

I go to a Chinese Acupuncturist in Southampton - I just feel that whilst I understand the basic principles - I'd still rather see someone who is very experienced with infertility. I have weekly treatment with tea pills. Generally take liu wei di huang wan from day 4 up to ovulation to encourage follicle growth and nourish yin/blood. Then I take Wu Zi Yan Zong Wan to promote ovulation from about day 12. Then post ovulation I take You Gui Wan to support yang.

To be honest I'd love to study herbs to understand why you prescribe one formula over another - as they often have similar functions.

I should mention that the EU have passed a law to ban pre mixed formulas, so we'll soon be unable to buy tea pills in the UK - they're only available until the current stock runs out. Grrrrr. You will still be able to get the powder from a registered herbalist - but its a lot more expensive.

To support yang yourself though - you can do a few things:

Put your feet in hot water for 10 minutes a day in the post ovulation phase of the cycle
Don't eat raw or cold foods (includes salads)
Don't walk around without socks and shoes on in the winter or on cold floors
Don't go swimming during your period
Put a hot water bottle on your lower back for 20 minutes in the evening in the post ovulation phase
Eat lots of soups and stews - particularly with orange vegetables (butternut squash, sweet potato).
Keep warm, even when everyone tells you how warm it is. If you feel cold, put on a sweater.

Reading that back it does sound a bit double, double toil and trouble ... but it does work 

Having said that, I'm still not pregnant. But that could be because my husband always seems to be away when I'm ovulating. I'm flying out to China a week on Sunday and I may be ovulating on the flight. If so, I'll have to pounce on him somewhere in the airport.


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## Blythe

Thanks so much for info :flower: I did not know about the pre mix formulas going.....still you can buy then direct from china from eBay for peanuts :) 

Acupuncturists who specialise in fertility charge an absolute fortune in London and all the Chinese ones I have been to have just do the same stuff. Well apart from one who has now left :( 

I'm thinking about IVF at the moment which is nuts as we are trying to get a deposit together at mo but I'm 41 and I sometimes panic. I have been going to fertility yoga. She's very good and also does qi gong so knows about supporting yin in follicular phase......it would be better of course if I could really relax which I find very difficult to do. 

Have you been doing those herbs for as long as you have having Acu?


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## Jazzbird

Hi Blythe 

I'd be careful about buying them off eBay because there's no way we can know what's in them. This is why the government has banned them. There have been a few reports that a class a drug was found in one of those high street herbal shops. I don't know how true this is. There are a lot of people who think the ban is motivated by the pharmaceutical companies protecting their market. I'm not sure! 

Like I said you can go to Asante academy or another clinic and get treatment cheaper under a student. If you wanted of course!

I understand re ivf. It's not something I ever wanted to do but as time ticks on we will have to discuss it at some point. In Hampshire there is no nhs funding for over 35 so we'd have to pay as well. 

Fingers crossed it'll happen soon for everyone!


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## Jazzbird

Ps yes I've been taking that herb combo since I started going in feb. it's definitely improved my temps and cycle length to 30 days from 35 days


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## Blythe

Jazzbird said:


> Hi Blythe
> 
> I'd be careful about buying them off eBay because there's no way we can know what's in them. This is why the government has banned them. There have been a few reports that a class a drug was found in one of those high street herbal shops. I don't know how true this is. There are a lot of people who think the ban is motivated by the pharmaceutical companies protecting their market. I'm not sure!
> 
> Like I said you can go to Asante academy or another clinic and get treatment cheaper under a student. If you wanted of course!
> 
> I understand re ivf. It's not something I ever wanted to do but as time ticks on we will have to discuss it at some point. In Hampshire there is no nhs funding for over 35 so we'd have to pay as well.
> 
> Fingers crossed it'll happen soon for everyone![/QUOTE
> 
> 
> I remember reading about a lade getting kidney failure after taking those little tea pills over a prolonged period. Very scary! A bad batch.
> 
> This postcode lottery is do unfair isn't it. It's 39 around my way but I would not have been eligible anyway as I have a child already. I'm looking at kings and create who both do natural IVF and are not too ridiculous in terms of price. I hope none of us need to go down this route though.


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## Briss

I started cramping yesterday, it's very mild you can barely notice it but it's a sign my body is preparing for AF - very disappointing. I was so hoping that hubby's improved sperm count can make a difference this cycle. my weight stays on the low side which is the only positive thing. I am going to go for trousers today and see if I can now fit into my old ones. I also think I am going to make myself two pancakes (around 200 calories!) 

Jazzbird, thank you very much for the article on egg quality, am reading it now. btw do you know what points/herbs can improve sperm quality?


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## Jazzbird

Briss said:


> Jazzbird, thank you very much for the article on egg quality, am reading it now. btw do you know what points/herbs can improve sperm quality?

Hi Briss

Actually I have read a lot about sperm quality - because friends hubby was diagnosed with poor motility and poor morphology. It is apparently very easy to treat with Chinese Herbs. It's nearly always a result of kidney deficiency (yin or yang or both) - although there are other patterns that can cause it (Damp-Heat & Blood & Qi stagnation). 

As for my friend's hubby, I referred him to a Chinese Herbalist - since there is a higher success rate with herbs than acupuncture. I think his name is Ken Lloyd - based in Bournemouth but has a few clinics in London and a few other places. 

He took herbs for about 6 months and they were due to have ICSI. He had to have another SA for the consultant before they proceeded and the consultant nearly dropped his pad on the floor - as his sperm was considered normal! So they ended up having normal IVF and it worked first try for them (she was 36, hubby 33). 

I can understand why a lot of acupuncture fails the western experiments (double blind) - because diagnosis differs dramatically, points are different and when you have another person administering its hard to create a proper double blind environment. But I can't understand why more western controlled experiments have not been done on Chinese herbs and Sperm Analysis - since its easy to measure, easy to administer and you can do the double blind experiment relatively easy. It's a real shame, because it really seems quite easy to treat.


The best book out there for Infertility and Chinese Medicine is "Treatment of Infertility with Chinese Medicine" by Jayne Lyttleton. It's aimed more at practitioners - but you guys have gemmed up so much, you might find it really useful. It has charts of patients with various patterns together with points used in acupuncture & herbs as well. It's around £30 - but its absolutely brilliant and very thorough.


----------



## Jazzbird

Jazzbird said:


> Briss said:
> 
> 
> Jazzbird, thank you very much for the article on egg quality, am reading it now. btw do you know what points/herbs can improve sperm quality?
> 
> Oh I nearly forgot, I think herbs are cheaper. You visit the herbalist usually once a month (£40) and the herbs are around £30 per month. If you go for acupuncture then its usually 4 X £40-£50 and probably have to take herbs as well. This only works for men though :-( Better to see an acupuncturist with herbs for women because the treatment is different every week. Grrrrr. It sucks being a woman.Click to expand...


----------



## Jazzbird

Sorry last but not least, my acupuncturist treated my ovaries with moxa around CD7 - as I tend to ovulate late. I'm not quite sure which point he used (I know, I should know ... but its been a while since I graduated) - I think its 4 cun (this is a measurement) lateral (adjacent) to Ren 4. When he did this I found my ovaries were a bit achey for a few days. I have been ovulating much earlier ... so hopefully that helps for all you late ovulating acupuncture buddies.


----------



## Briss

Jazzbird said:


> Briss said:
> 
> 
> Jazzbird, thank you very much for the article on egg quality, am reading it now. btw do you know what points/herbs can improve sperm quality?
> 
> Hi Briss
> 
> Actually I have read a lot about sperm quality - because friends hubby was diagnosed with poor motility and poor morphology. It is apparently very easy to treat with Chinese Herbs. It's nearly always a result of kidney deficiency (yin or yang or both) - although there are other patterns that can cause it (Damp-Heat & Blood & Qi stagnation).
> 
> As for my friend's hubby, I referred him to a Chinese Herbalist - since there is a higher success rate with herbs than acupuncture. I think his name is Ken Lloyd - based in Bournemouth but has a few clinics in London and a few other places.
> 
> He took herbs for about 6 months and they were due to have ICSI. He had to have another SA for the consultant before they proceeded and the consultant nearly dropped his pad on the floor - as his sperm was considered normal! So they ended up having normal IVF and it worked first try for them (she was 36, hubby 33).
> 
> I can understand why a lot of acupuncture fails the western experiments (double blind) - because diagnosis differs dramatically, points are different and when you have another person administering its hard to create a proper double blind environment. But I can't understand why more western controlled experiments have not been done on Chinese herbs and Sperm Analysis - since its easy to measure, easy to administer and you can do the double blind experiment relatively easy. It's a real shame, because it really seems quite easy to treat.
> 
> 
> The best book out there for Infertility and Chinese Medicine is "Treatment of Infertility with Chinese Medicine" by Jayne Lyttleton. It's aimed more at practitioners - but you guys have gemmed up so much, you might find it really useful. It has charts of patients with various patterns together with points used in acupuncture & herbs as well. It's around £30 - but its absolutely brilliant and very thorough.Click to expand...

thank you very much for your advice, i will check out that book, looks very interesting. I hear that all the time that sperm is easy to fix with chinese medicine and yet I cant find a formula that would work for my DH. our previous doc recommended shengji ngguben wan formula and DH was taking it for a few months but it did not make any difference (although there were other factors as well like he did not eat well)


----------



## Breaking Dawn

Jazzbird...

Thank you so much for joining this thread. I only just found this thread a day before you posted. 

I have to say just by reading your posts I have learned so much.

Do you mind if I ask you a few questions?

I am new to traditional Chinese medicine and acu. I go to a fertility specialist for tcm and acu. 

She is great in that not only has she studied the above for years in China but she also studied western medicine and teaches all this at her clinic (cgicm.ca). So I'm really lucky to have her and bc she teaches her English is quite good.

I first went to her last cycle and gave her my history: I have been diagnosed with weak ovulation, 28 day cycle on cd14 when I O the follie is on the small side. I had one bfp which resulted in a chemical which was due to immature follie.

My tcm Dr has diagnosed me with liver qi stagnation and I think one other deficiency. I also had the end of my tongue red tip. 

During my cycle I get needled different points which sounds like you said is good. She also gives different powdered herbs to drink.

What does it mean when she twists/turns the needles once they are inserted? 

In my tww she always does moxa over my uterus (no needles there). And does moxa over the needles in my ankle and leg.

What is this for? 

When she makes the powdered herbs for me she gives me the list of English herb names.. i noticed that you guys are all referring to the herbs by one set name. Is there a list somewhere online I can look up what the herbs are called? 

Thank you sooo much!


----------



## Briss

Jazzbird said:


> Jazzbird said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Briss said:
> 
> 
> Jazzbird, thank you very much for the article on egg quality, am reading it now. btw do you know what points/herbs can improve sperm quality?
> 
> Oh I nearly forgot, I think herbs are cheaper. You visit the herbalist usually once a month (£40) and the herbs are around £30 per month. If you go for acupuncture then its usually 4 X £40-£50 and probably have to take herbs as well. This only works for men though :-( Better to see an acupuncturist with herbs for women because the treatment is different every week. Grrrrr. It sucks being a woman.Click to expand...
> 
> at Dr Zhai I pay 10 pounds a day for herbs and I guess it will be the same for DH's herbs.Click to expand...


----------



## Jazzbird

Breaking Dawn said:


> Jazzbird...
> 
> What does it mean when she twists/turns the needles once they are inserted?
> 
> In my tww she always does moxa over my uterus (no needles there). And does moxa over the needles in my ankle and leg.
> 
> What is this for?
> 
> When she makes the powdered herbs for me she gives me the list of English herb names.. i noticed that you guys are all referring to the herbs by one set name. Is there a list somewhere online I can look up what the herbs are called?
> 
> Thank you sooo much!


Hello Breaking Dawn!

I don't mind questions at all.

So twisting the needles. Generally speaking in acupuncture terms you have patterns of illness. They are either a "deficiency" or weakness (not enough energy) or they are an "excess" condition (this is either too much of something or stuck energy). Most people have both - which is known as a "mixed" condition.

So you get Qi deficiency, Yin deficiency, Yang deficiency, Blood Deficiency & Jing deficiency. Where there is deficiency, the treatment is to tonify the point. In this case, some acupuncturists (not all, there are different techniques) will insert the needle and turn it clockwise 180 degrees, then remove the needle and close the hole (by sealing it with their finger or usually a cotton swab). Again, techniques differ between acupuncturists, so if yours isn't doing this don't worry!

Excess conditions are: phlegm, damp, heat, Qi stagnation, blood stagnation. Where there is excess the treatment is reduction. In this case, acupuncturists will insert the needle and turn it 360 degrees anti clockwise. But pure excess conditions are very rare. Reduction is a very strong treatment and so it is generally not performed on people with mixed conditions.

For people with mixed conditions, to treat the excess element, the acupuncturist will use "even" technique. This is simply inserting the needle and leaving it in. This is a more gentle treatment.

As for moxa - this is like a double tonification treatment. Its like a double boost almost. Moxa is also warming, so is very good for Yang deficient patients (patients who are very cold). The only problem is, that if there are any signs of heat at all, you have to be careful to use moxa as it is warming.
Moxa is often used if there is Cold in the uterus. It sounds like your acupuncturist is encouraging ovulation and then perhaps boosting kidney yang by warming kidney points on ankles, and probably ST36 for general tonification.

I'm not sure what you mean when she says she gives you the English name? I wonder if they are a brand like Giovanni Maciocia - he has branded his names like: Ease the Journey, Free the Moon (!) etc. They more or less relate to standard patent formulas or pin yin names.

There isn't really a definitive list. And the herbs can be mixed in a million different ways.

Hope this helps


----------



## Briss

Jazzbird said:


> Hey Briss
> 
> Unfortunately, I'm not a qualified herbalist, although I'd love to be. It cost around £15K to become an Acupuncturist in UK and I'd have to find another £5K to study for herbs. Having said that, I understand what the formulas do ... but I can't really advise on specific formulas.
> 
> There is an interesting article on improving eqq quality with a similar diagnosis to yours (I suspect based on the formulas your acupuncturist has prescribed, that you may have kidney yin deficiency with heat). The woman in the article is 45. Its important to remember that acupuncture is not an either/or diagnosis, but a sliding scale. So you can have the same diagnosis as someone even though you have different symptoms. I have been diagnosed with kidney yin deficiency, which usually presents with signs of heat, but I'm always cold  This is because I'm also yang deficient. Here is the article:
> 
> https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&r..._PyiQegJzP3MtMxSga3nmVA&bvm=bv.47534661,d.d2k
> 
> What sort of herbs are you taking? Are they tea pills, powder or in raw form where you have to boil? I have heard that the powder/raw herbs are more powerful than tea pills.
> 
> I can't really answer about the outbreak of acne as I'm not a herbal expert. You can have reactions to herbs, although I've not heard of anyone breaking out in acne.
> 
> So you are currently on xiao yao san. This is a formula that treats something called "liver qi stagnation". Its basically stuck energy in the liver channel which runs through the uterus and breasts. It can be caused by stress and often causes PMS symptoms - bad cramping, mood swings, irregular cycles. Its very common amongst women.
> 
> The other formula qing ying san - is for cooling the blood and nourishing yin. If there is too much heat, then it causes premature ovulation when the follicle is not fully developed.
> 
> It sounds as though you are on the right track with your acupuncturist. It will take time for the treatments to start showing an effect.
> 
> The best thing to do with a heat diagnosis & this sounds obvious - but it is to avoid foods, drink & environments that are heating. No bikram yoga, saunas or steam rooms, limit alcohol & caffeine, no greasy food, no spicy food either. I hear you on the caffeine front (I'm addicted to PG tips) and my own personal opinion is that it is better to have a *little* of what you fancy than to have a miserable existence. Can you live with one cappuccino per day? If so, I'd take it as your guilty pleasure. If you can then try and make all the other lifestyle changes - it'll go a long way.
> 
> I have no idea what your lifestyle has been like up until now. I worked and played very hard in London for years. I worked long hours, studied, skipped meals and drank a lot of gin & tonic  I stopped being able to sleep & eventually winded up at an acupuncturist totally desperate a few years later. Diagnosis was Yin deficiency, or like a burnout syndrome. After SIX MONTHS of weekly acupuncture and herbs, I finally started to sleep again. I've not had any relapse since then.
> 
> What this whole thing taught me is that I have a natural tendency to be yin deficient. Which means that busy environments, long working hours, hectic lifestyles & partying have a particularly detrimental affect on my wellbeing. So now I live a very sedate life - and really guard my yin.
> 
> Activities that burn yin: staying up late, working long hours, commuting too long, hectic lifestyles, spending too much time in front of computer/tv, worrying, too much high impact exercise
> 
> Activities that nourish yin: go to bed early, me time, meditation, yoga, pilates, quiet time ...
> 
> So in a nutshell, if you have been diagnosed with yin deficiency & you should definitely talk to your acupuncturist and get her to tell you all about your diagnosis. What is it in terms of Chinese Medicine (yin? heat? yang? liver qi stagnation? etc.) and what that means in laymen's terms ... and then ask what you should be doing at home lifestyle wise to help. Also ask what bits of your chart correspond to your diagnosis - and ask him/her what you should be looking out for as signs of success. This is really helpful in long term treatment to know you are making progress.
> 
> Oh I nearly forgot, apparently eating eggs - fish eggs or hens eggs is excellent for follicle growth! Also drinking soya milk in moderation. Eat/drink them in the first half of your cycle.


was reading that article, interestingly Kidney yang decline is evident in the slow rise of temperature at ovulation which I definitely have.


----------



## Breaking Dawn

Jazzbird said:


> Hello Breaking Dawn!
> 
> I don't mind questions at all.
> 
> So twisting the needles. Generally speaking in acupuncture terms you have patterns of illness. They are either a "deficiency" or weakness (not enough energy) or they are an "excess" condition (this is either too much of something or stuck energy). Most people have both - which is known as a "mixed" condition.
> 
> So you get Qi deficiency, Yin deficiency, Yang deficiency, Blood Deficiency & Jing deficiency. Where there is deficiency, the treatment is to tonify the point. In this case, some acupuncturists (not all, there are different techniques) will insert the needle and turn it clockwise 180 degrees, then remove the needle and close the hole (by sealing it with their finger or usually a cotton swab). Again, techniques differ between acupuncturists, so if yours isn't doing this don't worry!
> 
> Excess conditions are: phlegm, damp, heat, Qi stagnation, blood stagnation. Where there is excess the treatment is reduction. In this case, acupuncturists will insert the needle and turn it 360 degrees anti clockwise. But pure excess conditions are very rare. Reduction is a very strong treatment and so it is generally not performed on people with mixed conditions.
> 
> For people with mixed conditions, to treat the excess element, the acupuncturist will use "even" technique. This is simply inserting the needle and leaving it in. This is a more gentle treatment.
> 
> As for moxa - this is like a double tonification treatment. Its like a double boost almost. Moxa is also warming, so is very good for Yang deficient patients (patients who are very cold). The only problem is, that if there are any signs of heat at all, you have to be careful to use moxa as it is warming.
> Moxa is often used if there is Cold in the uterus. It sounds like your acupuncturist is encouraging ovulation and then perhaps boosting kidney yang by warming kidney points on ankles, and probably ST36 for general tonification.
> 
> I'm not sure what you mean when she says she gives you the English name? I wonder if they are a brand like Giovanni Maciocia - he has branded his names like: Ease the Journey, Free the Moon (!) etc. They more or less relate to standard patent formulas or pin yin names.
> 
> There isn't really a definitive list. And the herbs can be mixed in a million different ways.
> 
> Hope this helps

So, after reading your reply, I recall that I have liver qi stagnation and kidney yang deficiency. 

My dr puts the needles in twists/wiggles....then lets them stay in for a while, before she removes them she twists/wiggles them again. She also seals with cotton swab after removing. 

Yes exactly she says she's boosting Ov, then warming. Your explanation of Moxa makes sense bc she says she wants to warm my uterus.

English Names....what I mean is....in some of your previous posts you mentioned:

"So you are currently on xiao yao san. This is a formula that treats something called "liver qi stagnation""


What is xiao Yao San ? Is that a formula /mixture of herbs?

My dr does not give me a name like that when she gives me the herbs instead I have a list of ingredients like this for CD8-CD12

Largehead atractylodes rhizome
Chinese throwax root
Barbary wolf berry fruit
Milkvetch root
Ginger root
Asiatic cornelian cherry fruit
Prepared rehmannia root
Nutgrass galingale rhizome 

Thanks so much for your help!!!


----------



## gingmg

I'm so sorry, I have no where to turn. I have absolutely hit rock bottom this week. I have cried for I dont know how many days a row, and I can't stop. I'm grieving something I never had, and I'm feeling so angry and sad. My OH is trying to be supportive, but doesn't understand why I am taking this so hard. I don't know why either. I never had it to loose it, but I am literally at a breaking point. I don't even recognize who I have become I am usually a sweet, carefree, fun loving, all accepting person, but I have compleltly lost touch with every part of who I used to be. I didn't even read any of the posts before me, I just started writing. I have no one to talk to, except my OH, who doesn't understand why I have fallen apart. I am complelty and uterlty alone, and I don't know where to turn. I don't know how to dig myself out of this hole of misery I am in. I want more than anything to get myself back on track, but I dont know where or how to start. This is the lowest of lows I have ever been in. Please help me see the light, because I can't keep going on the way that I'm going on. I'm in so much pain and I can't even tell anyone.


----------



## Blythe

gingmg said:


> I'm so sorry, I have no where to turn. I have absolutely hit rock bottom this week. I have cried for I dont know how many days a row, and I can't stop. I'm grieving something I never had, and I'm feeling so angry and sad. My OH is trying to be supportive, but doesn't understand why I am taking this so hard. I don't know why either. I never had it to loose it, but I am literally at a breaking point. I don't even recognize who I have become I am usually a sweet, carefree, fun loving, all accepting person, but I have compleltly lost touch with every part of who I used to be. I didn't even read any of the posts before me, I just started writing. I have no one to talk to, except my OH, who doesn't understand why I have fallen apart. I am complelty and uterlty alone, and I don't know where to turn. I don't know how to dig myself out of this hole of misery I am in. I want more than anything to get myself back on track, but I dont know where or how to start. This is the lowest of lows I have ever been in. Please help me see the light, because I can't keep going on the way that I'm going on. I'm in so much pain and I can't even tell anyone.


Hi gingmg....i read your post and jumped out of bed and came to my computer. firstly, i wanted to give you a virtual :hugs:....i would get your OH to give you some proper bear hug and to tell you in these exact words... "its going to be ok". i say that because it most likely WILL be ok and you WILL get your baby. 

I have been TTC my second child since Jan 2011 and thinking about it alot 6 months prior so i have been on these boards on and off for quite some time. in that time i see that, for the most part, all us girls get our BFP. some, heartbreakingly, take quite some time to get theirs but they do, in the end :)

i know that hole you are in and all you can do is be kind to yourself and keep on going. sometimes i see myself as a warrior on a really long march. When i collapse [i usually do this every 2/3 months a few days before AF comes] and i have to pick myself up and just keep on going. I get my DH to tell me i will get pregnant and its going to be ok....words are so powerful. i have been going to a fertility yoga course.....don't worry I'm not going to get all spiritual/religious on you now [those posts drive me mad!!!] but i have been given an exercise to do in which i get my conscious mind to repeat the same sentence over and over to myself by writing it down [23 times for 11 days]. the idea being i drip feed this stuff to my subconscious and when we truly believe something will happen your body starts preparing for it. my sentence is 'i am holding my newborn child on a sunny morning in 2014". the statement usually works best when you start it with I AM and is specific [i suppose i may change it to say feb 2014]...when you think of it you must really try and imagine what it feels like and the smells, sounds, colours in the picture you come up with......jeeeeez im typing this out and thinking this probably wont help your mood right now!!

some practical advice....keep doing your supplements, your acu and try to get some basic blood tests, SA etc, do temping, opking. really get to know what your body is doing....i know you have already had positive results from acu so everything IS moving in the right direction OK :) 

TTC is emotionally draining and most of us girls live our lives in 2 week segments....just trying to get from one phase to the next without losing the plot. i really am in awe of anyone having to battle LTTTC issues because it is bloody exhausting and often heartbreaking. Whilst our men try to make the right noises they simply cannot know how we feel [those bloody hormones again]. over a few months this can really wear a girl down...:(

You are NOT alone and you must seek support when you need it....someone is always here to help and provide a virtual :hugs:


----------



## Blythe

Briss said:


> Jazzbird said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Briss said:
> 
> 
> Jazzbird, thank you very much for the article on egg quality, am reading it now. btw do you know what points/herbs can improve sperm quality?
> 
> Hi Briss
> 
> Actually I have read a lot about sperm quality - because friends hubby was diagnosed with poor motility and poor morphology. It is apparently very easy to treat with Chinese Herbs. It's nearly always a result of kidney deficiency (yin or yang or both) - although there are other patterns that can cause it (Damp-Heat & Blood & Qi stagnation).
> 
> As for my friend's hubby, I referred him to a Chinese Herbalist - since there is a higher success rate with herbs than acupuncture. I think his name is Ken Lloyd - based in Bournemouth but has a few clinics in London and a few other places.
> 
> He took herbs for about 6 months and they were due to have ICSI. He had to have another SA for the consultant before they proceeded and the consultant nearly dropped his pad on the floor - as his sperm was considered normal! So they ended up having normal IVF and it worked first try for them (she was 36, hubby 33).
> 
> I can understand why a lot of acupuncture fails the western experiments (double blind) - because diagnosis differs dramatically, points are different and when you have another person administering its hard to create a proper double blind environment. But I can't understand why more western controlled experiments have not been done on Chinese herbs and Sperm Analysis - since its easy to measure, easy to administer and you can do the double blind experiment relatively easy. It's a real shame, because it really seems quite easy to treat.
> 
> 
> The best book out there for Infertility and Chinese Medicine is "Treatment of Infertility with Chinese Medicine" by Jayne Lyttleton. It's aimed more at practitioners - but you guys have gemmed up so much, you might find it really useful. It has charts of patients with various patterns together with points used in acupuncture & herbs as well. It's around £30 - but its absolutely brilliant and very thorough.Click to expand...
> 
> thank you very much for your advice, i will check out that book, looks very interesting. I hear that all the time that sperm is easy to fix with chinese medicine and yet I cant find a formula that would work for my DH. our previous doc recommended shengji ngguben wan formula and DH was taking it for a few months but it did not make any difference (although there were other factors as well like he did not eat well)Click to expand...

i was just checking the contents of the book out on amazon

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Treatment-Infertility-Chinese-Medicine-Lyttleton/dp/044306640X

interesting that some of the formulas are administered via rectum....i will not moan about taste of herbs again!!


----------



## Blythe

Briss said:


> I started cramping yesterday, it's very mild you can barely notice it but it's a sign my body is preparing for AF - very disappointing. I was so hoping that hubby's improved sperm count can make a difference this cycle. my weight stays on the low side which is the only positive thing. I am going to go for trousers today and see if I can now fit into my old ones. I also think I am going to make myself two pancakes (around 200 calories!)
> 
> Jazzbird, thank you very much for the article on egg quality, am reading it now. btw do you know what points/herbs can improve sperm quality?



Briss - have you had anymore cramping? 

how did the trying on of the trousers go?

we got on a train yesterday and went to worthing for a few hours...it was lovely to walk around and not think about TTC.

when i came back i went to argos and brought some new scales...my old ones were nearly brand new but electronic and depending on the surface i placed them would give me a different reading so as good as useless! i have got down to 11.2 and i was 11.8 nearly 5 weeks ago. this is not staggering weight loss but it is coming off and to be honest i look best around 10-10.7 so not that far to go :)

i also brought a hair dye from boots.....i always used to dye my own hair but have just let it go natural over the last year or two...being consumed with TTC i let everything go...you know the feeling!! anyhow i now look like a cheap hooker :( the hairdye is mahogany and so i have bright orange mixed with burgundy all around hairline and roots and the bottom half of hair is really dark. after acu this morning i will go to boots and buy a hairdye removal kit and try again just with a nice darkish brown. i may even apply some fake tan afterwards :)


----------



## Jazzbird

Breaking Dawn said:


> Jazzbird said:
> 
> 
> Hello Breaking Dawn!
> 
> 
> My dr does not give me a name like that when she gives me the herbs instead I have a list of ingredients like this for CD8-CD12
> 
> Largehead atractylodes rhizome
> Chinese throwax root
> Barbary wolf berry fruit
> Milkvetch root
> Ginger root
> Asiatic cornelian cherry fruit
> Prepared rehmannia root
> Nutgrass galingale rhizome
> 
> Thanks so much for your help!!!
> 
> 
> Hello again!
> 
> So your acupuncturist is mixing your own individual mix of herbs - which a special mix for you personally. When we talk about "you gui wan" or another formula, we're talking about off the shelf pre-mixed formulas - a patent formula.
> 
> If you look at the ingredients in patent formula - you'll find similar ingredients to what you listed. The difference being that patent formulas aren't really tailored to each patient.
> 
> Its brilliant to have your own mix of herbs, especially if you have a more complex condition. The powders and raw herbs are thought to be more powerful as well (than tea pills, which is what I take).
> 
> The benefit of tea pills is that they are cheaper. Every week throughout my cycle I get a different box of patent tea pills. They cost around £8 and last just over a week.
> 
> 
> You can google all the ingredients and work out what they are treating, but to be honest, I think its a really good idea to ask all about your diagnosis from your acupuncturist & ask lots of questions about what herbs you are taking & why you are taking them & what if anything you can be doing to help inbetween treatments (diet, exercise ... etc.). Also get her to explain your chart to you and what an "ideal" chart would look like - so you can get some indicators that things are moving in the right direction. Fertility is hard to treat, because the patient only sees success once a successful pregnancy is established and this can take a long time. It will help to keep you positive seeing these changes on your chart. Also ask her if you should be seeing improvements in any symptoms.
> 
> Lots of women with Liver Qi Stagnation (and this is very common amongst women) - get irregular and painful periods. It is the main pattern associated with PMS (cramps, breast tenderness, mood swings, irritability etc.).Click to expand...


----------



## Jazzbird

was reading that article, interestingly Kidney yang decline is evident in the slow rise of temperature at ovulation which I definitely have.[/QUOTE]


Do you have low progesterone levels as well? I think there is a link between Kidney Yang deficiency and Progesterone levels. My levels are apparently low at 10. But since taking my herbs, my temperature in the second half has increased faster & is much higher. My acupuncturist said, it should ideally be above 36.6


----------



## Jazzbird

gingmg said:


> I'm so sorry, I have no where to turn. I have absolutely hit rock bottom this week. I have cried for I dont know how many days a row, and I can't stop. I'm grieving something I never had, and I'm feeling so angry and sad. My OH is trying to be supportive, but doesn't understand why I am taking this so hard. I don't know why either. I never had it to loose it, but I am literally at a breaking point. I don't even recognize who I have become I am usually a sweet, carefree, fun loving, all accepting person, but I have compleltly lost touch with every part of who I used to be. I didn't even read any of the posts before me, I just started writing. I have no one to talk to, except my OH, who doesn't understand why I have fallen apart. I am complelty and uterlty alone, and I don't know where to turn. I don't know how to dig myself out of this hole of misery I am in. I want more than anything to get myself back on track, but I dont know where or how to start. This is the lowest of lows I have ever been in. Please help me see the light, because I can't keep going on the way that I'm going on. I'm in so much pain and I can't even tell anyone.


Hello Gingmg

A big virtual hug from me. You sound so very sad - I had to respond. I'm only 6 months into my TTC journey so I hope my response doesn't sound hollow.

I already am starting to feel the pain of each monthly loss and I'm only 6 months in. I cannot imagine how it would feel in a year or 2 or more years time. 

I'm a semi-professional singer, and the only thing that can pull me out of the obsession of TTC is singing. I feel an intense joy which completely takes over me. Do you have anything similar? A passion for something ...? 

My advice is to go back to a time when TTC wasn't part of your life - and think about what made you joyful and happy before - can you revisit whatever this is? I feel that creative pursuits can be totally therapeutic for intense emotions.

But whatever happens, you are not alone. This is such a wonderfully supportive forum.

XXX


----------



## gingmg

I'm only 7 months in, which feels like eternity. I don't know how to cope right now, and thinking about feeling this way for another year, or more, is more than I can wrap my head around. I know it hasn't been that long, but for some reason I have completely lost all sense of myself, and this last BFN has put me right over the edge. I'm trying with every ounce of my being to dig myself out of this hole, but its so hard. My OH can't get me pregnant, we do IUIs, and are going to take a break for a few months so that I can build myself back up. I have completely lost it. Still crying today, I just want to feel better. Waiting for my yoga class to start and hoping that I can find some strength today. Thanks for your kind words. I know you all must be like, its only been 7months, just relax, but for some reason this month I have completely fallen apart.


----------



## Jazzbird

gingmg said:


> I'm only 7 months in, which feels like eternity. I don't know how to cope right now, and thinking about feeling this way for another year, or more, is more than I can wrap my head around. I know it hasn't been that long, but for some reason I have completely lost all sense of myself, and this last BFN has put me right over the edge. I'm trying with every ounce of my being to dig myself out of this hole, but its so hard. My OH can't get me pregnant, we do IUIs, and are going to take a break for a few months so that I can build myself back up. I have completely lost it. Still crying today, I just want to feel better. Waiting for my yoga class to start and hoping that I can find some strength today. Thanks for your kind words. I know you all must be like, its only been 7months, just relax, but for some reason this month I have completely fallen apart.

I think its harder if you are doing IUIs - there is more at stake resting on each attempt ... I think taking a break is a wonderful idea. Can you go away somewhere, to get a change of scenery/different perspective? It's good to spend time with your OH and remember what is special about your relationship. 

Don't think about the future & all the possibilities if you can help it. It's hard I know, but the old saying - take each day as it comes is the only way to keep going


----------



## Briss

Hi gingmg, I also offer my support it's so tough no one can understand what you are going through except for somebody who has been there. I've been TTC since 34 and am going to be 37 this month, and it's getting harder and more upsetting every month. In my life I've lost people most dearest to me and I know the pain of a loss, unfortunately LTTTC is on the same level of pain but it's a type of recurrent pain, as if month after month you are losing a child although as you said it does not seem right to feel that way because you've never had it so how can you lose something you did not have and yet you can feel this loss as if it was real. Infertility is soul destroying and very hard to cope with if it's long term. I can relate very well to your pain because my AF is due in a day or two and I am going to go through yet another loss but as before I will somehow have to find it in me to recover in 2-3 days so I could put all that behind me to make sure I do my best to create a new healthy egg. Life goes on, isn't it and nothing you can do but to carry on doing everything you can for the pregnancy to occur and hope for the best. it's really hard to sustain this long term but there seem to be no alternative. But when we finally get our babies, can you imagine the happiness! and I can tell you this will really prepare us to be the best kind of parents. 

Blythe, from 11.8 to 11.2 is great!! well done! I did some math and on average I've been losing 1.5 pounds a week. I have very good scales at home that does not depend on the surface and very reliable which is very important. I dye my own hair and have been for many years now. From time to time I do it professionally at a salon but not more than once a year. my hairdresser explained what colors and proportions I need to mix and I order my professional dye from the netherlands and just do it myself at home so much cheaper and the result is still good. but obviously dyeing hair can be quite tricky particularly if you are using different brands every time and already have some dye on your hair the result can be quire unexpected. 

am still cramping a bit, yesterday at one point was afraid AF was about to start but luckily it did not, so relieved, i would really be disappointed to get such a short cycle. 

re weight, trousers were a complete fiasco :( only one pair fit. I was probably much slimmer than I even remember. I am happy in my current weight if I can lose 3-4 more pounds I'd be delighted but If not I'll still be content if I can just stay where I am now (I'll just have to buy new trousers). unfortunately, got a bit of weight gain today cos (unintentionally) overate cheese yesterday. apparently i can only eat a tiny bit of this stuff, it's so high calorie!

formulas are administered via rectum??? hmm... not very pleasant 

Jazzbird, am getting slightly annoyed that at Dr Zhai's clinic they just give me patent formulas that aren't really tailored to me (considering the money I am paying). On the other hand since I started acu/herbs I do see changes in my chart, my temp is definitely more stable both before and after O. I have normal progesterone levels between 32-45 (you need to have over 30 to confirm ovulation), I mentioned slow rise of temperature at ovulation as my only sign that I may have minor Kidney Yang deficiency. other than that I think it's mainly Kidney Yin deficiency problem. 

I've been discussing meditation with my friend who is hindu and she said not many practicing hindu can actually do meditation. as I was thinking it's basically an exercise where you try to empty your mind of all thoughts which I find impossible even if I stop thinking about random stuff I'd still be thinking about how not to think :) she recommended starting with mantras and breathing and with time I may manage to get to meditation for a few moment.


----------



## Blythe

i love cheese but cannot just have a little so i have not brought it for ages just so temptation is not there in the fridge.

my regime this month for supplements is:

black cohosh 120mg - cds 1-12
red clover blossom 860mg - cds 5-9
micronised DHEA 25mg - all cds
ubiquinol COQ10 400mg - all cds
pre natal vit w/iron - most cps
wheatgrass shot - most cds
jin kui shen qi wan - post ovulation
prog cream - post ovulation

got DH on 
wellman conception
ubiquinol COQ10 100mg
l-arginine - 2000mg
maca 1000mg
nan bao jiao nang

i think losing an average of 1.5 lbs per week is really good and thats the type of weight loss that sticks. back in my early 30s i could shift 10 lbs in a couple of weeks no problem but my weight was always up and down.

re the meditation...i agree with what you friend said. i was saying to yoga teacher i just cannot do it but she said that even just sitting there and focussing on breath or mantra means we are probably slipping in and out of a meditative state and so the benefits do accrue even if we don't really see it. i know how much it would really do for me if i could get into the swing of it as im always over thinking...its really tiring :(


----------



## Jazzbird

Briss said:


> formulas are administered via rectum??? hmm... not very pleasant
> 
> Jazzbird, am getting slightly annoyed that at Dr Zhai's clinic they just give me patent formulas that aren't really tailored to me (considering the money I am paying). On the other hand since I started acu/herbs I do see changes in my chart, my temp is definitely more stable both before and after O. I have normal progesterone levels between 32-45 (you need to have over 30 to confirm ovulation), I mentioned slow rise of temperature at ovulation as my only sign that I may have minor Kidney Yang deficiency. other than that I think it's mainly Kidney Yin deficiency problem.
> 
> I've been discussing meditation with my friend who is hindu and she said not many practicing hindu can actually do meditation. as I was thinking it's basically an exercise where you try to empty your mind of all thoughts which I find impossible even if I stop thinking about random stuff I'd still be thinking about how not to think :) she recommended starting with mantras and breathing and with time I may manage to get to meditation for a few moment.

Hello Briss

I haven't red the bit about administering formulas via the rectum. Grim. I'll have to check it out - do you know what page its on? I tend to skim through the chapters and pick out the bits I'm looking for. I haven't read it cover to cover.

I can understand your frustration with the clinic, £10 per day is an awful lot of money to pay for herbs - does this price include acupuncture as well? I only wish I was qualified in herbs because perhaps they are using a brilliant supplier or are getting you super strength, super rare herbs. I wouldn't worry too much about patent vs tailored. If you have a very standard pattern that is not complex, then it makes sense to go with a patent. Also if you are seeing changes, then they must have the diagnosis right. 

Hmph, it looks like my progesterone could be a problem. I find the doctors so rubbish at explaining things. He said over the phone that I may not be ovulating, but I get my temperature rise, have fairly regular cycles and I get my LH surge etc. But perhaps I need to go back.


Re: meditation - I think this is a common misconception, that you have to "empty the mind" and think of nothing. This is not the goal of meditation. The goal of meditation is to focus the mind on something. The untrained mind is said to be like a "drunken monkey - swinging from tree to tree in reckless abandon". I think everyone experiences this - constant chit chat in your mind. When you meditate, your mind will wander, not once or twice but 100s of times. 

What I started out doing is transcendental meditation, but to be honest, I'll save you a lot of money and tell you how to do it!

Find a relatively quiet place, twice a day for 20 minutes (if this is too much, start with 10). You can sit in a chair or on the floor - whatever is comfortable. Close your eyes, take long slow breaths - for a few minutes until you find yourself relaxing. 

Then repeat to yourself (you can start out loud if you like) "on-ya" relatively slowly. Start to repeat it mentally to yourself. Focus on the sounds and try to focus only on the mantra. But you must do this in a relaxed manner, don't tense up.

Your mind will wander constantly. In fact, I find it very uncomfortable at first. Every time your mind wanders and you recognise it, let the thought go and gently bring yourself back to the mantra. It is important not to chastise yourself or get irritated, but to be gentle when bringing your attention back.

It doesn't matter how long your mind has wandered - they say to rejoice in the fact that you have realised - and to celebrate your awareness.

Gradually as you do it longer, you will find your mind settles down and you feel pretty peaceful.

This is a mantra based meditation - but you can choose whatever you want to focus your attention. This is simply known as mindfulness meditation - and you can extend it to all areas of your life. It just means being present in the moment and training your concentration to focus on the task in hand - whether that is showering, or walking to work, doing work ... etc. 

Having said all that I'm rubbish at practicing it!!! But every time I do, I think - I really should do more of this.

If meditation is too much, try a hypnosis CD - I'm sure there's one for conception. They are hugely relaxing.


----------



## Blythe

Jazzbird said:


> Briss said:
> 
> 
> formulas are administered via rectum??? hmm... not very pleasant
> 
> Jazzbird, am getting slightly annoyed that at Dr Zhai's clinic they just give me patent formulas that aren't really tailored to me (considering the money I am paying). On the other hand since I started acu/herbs I do see changes in my chart, my temp is definitely more stable both before and after O. I have normal progesterone levels between 32-45 (you need to have over 30 to confirm ovulation), I mentioned slow rise of temperature at ovulation as my only sign that I may have minor Kidney Yang deficiency. other than that I think it's mainly Kidney Yin deficiency problem.
> 
> I've been discussing meditation with my friend who is hindu and she said not many practicing hindu can actually do meditation. as I was thinking it's basically an exercise where you try to empty your mind of all thoughts which I find impossible even if I stop thinking about random stuff I'd still be thinking about how not to think :) she recommended starting with mantras and breathing and with time I may manage to get to meditation for a few moment.
> 
> Hello Briss
> 
> I haven't red the bit about administering formulas via the rectum. Grim. I'll have to check it out - do you know what page its on? I tend to skim through the chapters and pick out the bits I'm looking for. I haven't read it cover to cover.
> 
> I can understand your frustration with the clinic, £10 per day is an awful lot of money to pay for herbs - does this price include acupuncture as well? I only wish I was qualified in herbs because perhaps they are using a brilliant supplier or are getting you super strength, super rare herbs. I wouldn't worry too much about patent vs tailored. If you have a very standard pattern that is not complex, then it makes sense to go with a patent. Also if you are seeing changes, then they must have the diagnosis right.
> 
> Hmph, it looks like my progesterone could be a problem. I find the doctors so rubbish at explaining things. He said over the phone that I may not be ovulating, but I get my temperature rise, have fairly regular cycles and I get my LH surge etc. But perhaps I need to go back.
> 
> 
> Re: meditation - I think this is a common misconception, that you have to "empty the mind" and think of nothing. This is not the goal of meditation. The goal of meditation is to focus the mind on something. The untrained mind is said to be like a "drunken monkey - swinging from tree to tree in reckless abandon". I think everyone experiences this - constant chit chat in your mind. When you meditate, your mind will wander, not once or twice but 100s of times.
> 
> What I started out doing is transcendental meditation, but to be honest, I'll save you a lot of money and tell you how to do it!
> 
> Find a relatively quiet place, twice a day for 20 minutes (if this is too much, start with 10). You can sit in a chair or on the floor - whatever is comfortable. Close your eyes, take long slow breaths - for a few minutes until you find yourself relaxing.
> 
> Then repeat to yourself (you can start out loud if you like) "on-ya" relatively slowly. Start to repeat it mentally to yourself. Focus on the sounds and try to focus only on the mantra. But you must do this in a relaxed manner, don't tense up.
> 
> Your mind will wander constantly. In fact, I find it very uncomfortable at first. Every time your mind wanders and you recognise it, let the thought go and gently bring yourself back to the mantra. It is important not to chastise yourself or get irritated, but to be gentle when bringing your attention back.
> 
> It doesn't matter how long your mind has wandered - they say to rejoice in the fact that you have realised - and to celebrate your awareness.
> 
> Gradually as you do it longer, you will find your mind settles down and you feel pretty peaceful.
> 
> This is a mantra based meditation - but you can choose whatever you want to focus your attention. This is simply known as mindfulness meditation - and you can extend it to all areas of your life. It just means being present in the moment and training your concentration to focus on the task in hand - whether that is showering, or walking to work, doing work ... etc.
> 
> Having said all that I'm rubbish at practicing it!!! But every time I do, I think - I really should do more of this.
> 
> If meditation is too much, try a hypnosis CD - I'm sure there's one for conception. They are hugely relaxing.Click to expand...




i saw the rectum bit on the back pages with the formulas - usually in brackets at end...see page 399 for an example.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Treatment-In.../dp/044306640X


----------



## Jazzbird

Briss said:


> formulas are administered via rectum??? hmm... not very pleasant
> 
> 
> I found it. Ewwwww. Although it says it hasn't caught on in the West yet. Here's hoping it stays that way. There is a point you can needle which is between the rectum and the vag, called Ren 1. We had to locate it on each other in class. That was not a fun class. We had to do it on men and women. It was not pleasant getting your bits out in front of your mates. And I would NEVER use it in practice - I don't know anyone who would. There are other points for heaven's sake!


----------



## Blythe

on no i cant believe they made you do that :)


----------



## Blythe

Jazzbird - i hope you dont mind...i have just one more question. i went for acu earlier today and since i have returned home my ovaries are aching. this is not uncommon. its not painful but is very similar to the feelings i experience around ovulation time. im only on CD6 so not due to ovulate for about 6/7 days....

i remember reading about a woman who had gone to gerard kite and she said due to her treatments with him she ovulated a second time that cycle and conceived. do you think acu can make a woman ovulate on the same day even if not due to ovulate? i guess if i ovulated now the egg would be immature. moreover, im working on DH for BDing next week so it would throw him completely off if i asked for it today :wacko:


----------



## Jazzbird

Blythe said:


> Jazzbird - i hope you dont mind...i have just one more question. i went for acu earlier today and since i have returned home my ovaries are aching. this is not uncommon. its not painful but is very similar to the feelings i experience around ovulation time. im only on CD6 so not due to ovulate for about 6/7 days....
> 
> i remember reading about a woman who had gone to gerard kite and she said due to her treatments with him she ovulated a second time that cycle and conceived. do you think acu can make a woman ovulate on the same day even if not due to ovulate? i guess if i ovulated now the egg would be immature. moreover, im working on DH for BDing next week so it would throw him completely off if i asked for it today :wacko:


Hey Blythe

I really don't mind at all - my OH is away and I'm sitting in my music studio writing out music for my next gig. It's a welcome distraction. That and some random cat that has moved into our house 

I get the same feeling when my acupuncturist moxas my ovaries & I get it for 2 days after. He does this between CD 5 and 14. I mentioned it to him. He said it was a sign things are "moving" but then my ovulation can be very late (CD 22) and when he did this, the ovulation moved to CD 16. So I think this is a very good treatment for me personally. I personally feel that ovary aching is a sign that she has give them a boost to encourage follicle development.

In answer to your question whether it could make you ovulate on the same day - I don't really know if that is possible. If you are using OPKs, this should give you some indication if you are about to ovulate. Also - if you haven't seen any EWCM (and this is normal for you) I wouldn't think you would be ovulating right now. But I'm not a doctor  Perhaps an unexpected romp would go down well with hubby, thinking you're not actually doing it for conception purposes only (mwa ha ha ha ha)  I know mine has complained about this!!!

I hope you don't mind, but I had a quick look at your chart and it looks very good  (this may be the result of acupuncture and herbs - so difficult to say just from looking at your chart). The only thing I noticed was that the temperature on your last cycle didn't drop for the first few days. It should drop ideally the day the period begins or the day before. But its only a slight observation - its not very pronounced and hasn't been repeated this cycle. I guess it would be useful to see what your chart was like before you had acupuncture. 

Do you know what she is treating you for? For example, what did she do today? Did she use Moxa? Or just needles? Has she told you what she feels maybe causing any problems conceiving? Has she told you your diagnosis in Chinese terms?


----------



## Blythe

Jazzbird said:


> Blythe said:
> 
> 
> Jazzbird - i hope you dont mind...i have just one more question. i went for acu earlier today and since i have returned home my ovaries are aching. this is not uncommon. its not painful but is very similar to the feelings i experience around ovulation time. im only on CD6 so not due to ovulate for about 6/7 days....
> 
> i remember reading about a woman who had gone to gerard kite and she said due to her treatments with him she ovulated a second time that cycle and conceived. do you think acu can make a woman ovulate on the same day even if not due to ovulate? i guess if i ovulated now the egg would be immature. moreover, im working on DH for BDing next week so it would throw him completely off if i asked for it today :wacko:
> 
> 
> Hey Blythe
> 
> I really don't mind at all - my OH is away and I'm sitting in my music studio writing out music for my next gig. It's a welcome distraction. That and some random cat that has moved into our house
> 
> I get the same feeling when my acupuncturist moxas my ovaries & I get it for 2 days after. He does this between CD 5 and 14. I mentioned it to him. He said it was a sign things are "moving" but then my ovulation can be very late (CD 22) and when he did this, the ovulation moved to CD 16. So I think this is a very good treatment for me personally. I personally feel that ovary aching is a sign that she has give them a boost to encourage follicle development.
> 
> In answer to your question whether it could make you ovulate on the same day - I don't really know if that is possible. If you are using OPKs, this should give you some indication if you are about to ovulate. Also - if you haven't seen any EWCM (and this is normal for you) I wouldn't think you would be ovulating right now. But I'm not a doctor  Perhaps an unexpected romp would go down well with hubby, thinking you're not actually doing it for conception purposes only (mwa ha ha ha ha)  I know mine has complained about this!!!
> 
> I hope you don't mind, but I had a quick look at your chart and it looks very good  (this may be the result of acupuncture and herbs - so difficult to say just from looking at your chart). The only thing I noticed was that the temperature on your last cycle didn't drop for the first few days. It should drop ideally the day the period begins or the day before. But its only a slight observation - its not very pronounced and hasn't been repeated this cycle. I guess it would be useful to see what your chart was like before you had acupuncture.
> 
> Do you know what she is treating you for? For example, what did she do today? Did she use Moxa? Or just needles? Has she told you what she feels maybe causing any problems conceiving? Has she told you your diagnosis in Chinese terms?Click to expand...

thank you...that is very reassuring:flower: i have to say i was very slow to notice any benefits or changes through regular acu and herbs but my last 3 cycles have been very nice looking chart wise [although there has been some heat/high temps in my follicular phase] and my periods have been pretty good in terms of red blood, very little clotting, good bleed etc so im hoping that it is doing something.

i did receive an explanation once ages ago...it was kidney yang issues and kidney yin [shocking or what!!]...they generally look to needle my st and spleen meridians and work on kidneys. they never explain what they are doing and rarely bother with my tongue nor pulse....they used to pay much more attention to me when i was paying for the powdered herbs but i guess that is where they make their money. im staying there because i have a deal for £20 acu sessions...once they stop this i will find someone else. its too late this cycle but i will get something myself for ki yin...perhaps the one you are taking pre ovulation for the first half of my cycle.

I try to eat raspberries, walnuts, warming soups, lamb for ki yang in second half of cycle and avoid cold stuff generally.

my hormone levels are all pretty good for my age [just turned 41] and tubes shown as being clear and DH's sperm is good enough to do the job. i have 28 day cycles generally and usually ovulate CD13 and have a fair amount of CM prior to ovulation although notice it dries up during actual event...i have been using preseed to counteract this. I have been taking COQ10 for egg quality and DHEA just in case i do opt for IVF but i really think we can do this without fertility treatment. I am actually due to see fertility specialist at end of month and i suspect she will dish out clomid for me. i found this the other day when considering clomid:

https://www.essence-llc.com/TCM and IVF drugs.pdf

They say it may damage the ki yin which i am conscious may be an issue for me already....i am very undecided about this at the moment.


----------



## Jazzbird

thank you...that is very reassuring:flower: i have to say i was very slow to notice any benefits or changes through regular acu and herbs but my last 3 cycles have been very nice looking chart wise [although there has been some heat/high temps in my follicular phase] and my periods have been pretty good in terms of red blood, very little clotting, good bleed etc so im hoping that it is doing something.

i did receive an explanation once ages ago...it was kidney yang issues and kidney yin [shocking or what!!]...they generally look to needle my st and spleen meridians and work on kidneys. they never explain what they are doing and rarely bother with my tongue nor pulse....they used to pay much more attention to me when i was paying for the powdered herbs but i guess that is where they make their money. im staying there because i have a deal for £20 acu sessions...once they stop this i will find someone else. its too late this cycle but i will get something myself for ki yin...perhaps the one you are taking pre ovulation for the first half of my cycle.

I try to eat raspberries, walnuts, warming soups, lamb for ki yang in second half of cycle and avoid cold stuff generally.

my hormone levels are all pretty good for my age [just turned 41] and tubes shown as being clear and DH's sperm is good enough to do the job. i have 28 day cycles generally and usually ovulate CD13 and have a fair amount of CM prior to ovulation although notice it dries up during actual event...i have been using preseed to counteract this. I have been taking COQ10 for egg quality and DHEA just in case i do opt for IVF but i really think we can do this without fertility treatment. I am actually due to see fertility specialist at end of month and i suspect she will dish out clomid for me. i found this the other day when considering clomid:

https://www.essence-llc.com/TCM and IVF drugs.pdf

They say it may damage the ki yin which i am conscious may be an issue for me already....i am very undecided about this at the moment.[/QUOTE]


I don't know your clinic, but they do sound extremely expensive. You know, most acupuncturists make hardly any money at all. They may charge £40 per session, but you have to take off room rental for that (which is often at least 1/3) - and lots of patients cancel appointments. This is why I decided not to start practicing - wanted to get the mortgage under control first. Maybe if I had children i could work from home.

I also feel that pulse and tongue are important diagnostic indicators - although I have to say mine doesn't always take them. I do prompt him regularly though  They can't get away much with me!

And I think it is so important to talk to the patient to help them understand what you think is wrong with them, how you are going to address it and also to give them indicators that they are getting better. I also think fertility is so emotional that they should have a caring attitude.

There are lots of good acupuncturists in London. It depends where you are based, but I can have a look and see if there are any I could recommend. 

From your chart, your yang looks great. Do you get any of the following: feeling hot at night, insomnia, feeling restless/agitated?, do you get plentiful EWCM, or do you suffer from dryness?

These are all yin/heat symptoms - & as yin declines naturally with age, I would have thought they would treat your yin as well with herbs. I could be wrong and there could be a good reason for their decision. 


But anyway, you have a good chart so that's something to celebrate!


----------



## Jazzbird

Jazzbird said:


> thank you...that is very reassuring:flower: i have to say i was very slow to notice any benefits or changes through regular acu and herbs but my last 3 cycles have been very nice looking chart wise [although there has been some heat/high temps in my follicular phase] and my periods have been pretty good in terms of red blood, very little clotting, good bleed etc so im hoping that it is doing something.
> 
> i did receive an explanation once ages ago...it was kidney yang issues and kidney yin [shocking or what!!]...they generally look to needle my st and spleen meridians and work on kidneys. they never explain what they are doing and rarely bother with my tongue nor pulse....they used to pay much more attention to me when i was paying for the powdered herbs but i guess that is where they make their money. im staying there because i have a deal for £20 acu sessions...once they stop this i will find someone else. its too late this cycle but i will get something myself for ki yin...perhaps the one you are taking pre ovulation for the first half of my cycle.
> 
> I try to eat raspberries, walnuts, warming soups, lamb for ki yang in second half of cycle and avoid cold stuff generally.
> 
> my hormone levels are all pretty good for my age [just turned 41] and tubes shown as being clear and DH's sperm is good enough to do the job. i have 28 day cycles generally and usually ovulate CD13 and have a fair amount of CM prior to ovulation although notice it dries up during actual event...i have been using preseed to counteract this. I have been taking COQ10 for egg quality and DHEA just in case i do opt for IVF but i really think we can do this without fertility treatment. I am actually due to see fertility specialist at end of month and i suspect she will dish out clomid for me. i found this the other day when considering clomid:
> 
> https://www.essence-llc.com/TCM and IVF drugs.pdf
> 
> They say it may damage the ki yin which i am conscious may be an issue for me already....i am very undecided about this at the moment.


I don't know your clinic, but they do sound extremely expensive. You know, most acupuncturists make hardly any money at all. They may charge £40 per session, but you have to take off room rental for that (which is often at least 1/3) - and lots of patients cancel appointments. This is why I decided not to start practicing - wanted to get the mortgage under control first. Maybe if I had children i could work from home.

I also feel that pulse and tongue are important diagnostic indicators - although I have to say mine doesn't always take them. I do prompt him regularly though  They can't get away much with me!

And I think it is so important to talk to the patient to help them understand what you think is wrong with them, how you are going to address it and also to give them indicators that they are getting better. I also think fertility is so emotional that they should have a caring attitude.

There are lots of good acupuncturists in London. It depends where you are based, but I can have a look and see if there are any I could recommend. 

From your chart, your yang looks great. Do you get any of the following: feeling hot at night, insomnia, feeling restless/agitated?, do you get plentiful EWCM, or do you suffer from dryness?

These are all yin/heat symptoms - & as yin declines naturally with age, I would have thought they would treat your yin as well with herbs. I could be wrong and there could be a good reason for their decision. 


But anyway, you have a good chart so that's something to celebrate![/QUOTE]

p.s. I just checked my textbook and it says: "We usually begin building Kidney Yin when the period finishes or is finishing. Typically this is around day 4 of the period ... In most fertility clinics the base formula chosen is the famous Liu Wei Di Huang Tang )this is what I take). Although if you are reinforcing blood at the same time, then the formula "Gui Shao Di Huang Tang" is used."


----------



## Jazzbird

p.p.s - sorry for the multiple posts.

I hear ya with the Clomid and Kidney Yin. Clomid is extremely heating and damages kidney yin - and can dry up CM. I read somewhere that a severely kidney yin deficient woman taking clomid is like whipping an exhausted horse.

However, there are acupuncturists who are willing to work alongside Conventional Medicine and can help to counteract the effects. It really depends on how yin deficient the Acupuncturist feels you are. They should be able to advise and help you decide. A good one will anyway


----------



## Blythe

thank you for quick reply. i was on the powdered herbs for about 4 months and had the same prescription throughout that time....i also worked with another practice earlier the year before and again they had me on the same concoction for weeks on end without altering it. i get that for the first few weeks....for example my current practice [im on my third doc within it] said they would have me on herbs for a few weeks to warm me up and get temps up and then change the prescription but they never did. I told them i was going to stop as i just could not justify the expense. £20 for acu is quite cheap around my way so thats why i have stuck with them. 

they wanted me to continue taking the Jin Kui Shen Qi Wan throughout the cycle but i wanted something which would nourish yin rather than yang in my pre ovulation phase....i think this formula is a general ki tonic but still id rather change what i am taking dependent on where i am in cycle.

i will check foods that are good for ki yin...ive heard tofu is [hang on did you tell me that :wacko: :)]


----------



## Briss

Blythe, do you think it's Ok to take both black cohosh and red clover blossom? I thought they do the same thing so i just wonder if they may intensify the effect or contradict each other in some way? I've never taken red clover blossom supps but I do drink it as a tea before O (it tastes really nice actually).

Jazzbird, thank you very much for your tips on meditation I will certainly try your technique. my previous doc was always needling Zigongs (points representing ovaries) regardless of where I was in my cycle and she also used electrics on both Zigongs and REN 3 and 4. I could never relax and my right sigong was always so sensitive even painful. she said if the needled points are painful it's a good sign. do you also think so? my current doc does not needle zigongs only REN 3 and 4 and it was so much more relaxing because I do not feel any pain at all. about pulse and tongue, my current doc said I had very red tongue (apparently means worry and heat) and wiry pulse but the last time he said my tongue looked almost normal and only tip was red. I am hoping this is a good sign. 
I recall seeing REN 1 when I was looking through the conception channel and wondered who would ever be able to tolerate that, it must be quite painful actually. Do you know if you can take Liu Wei Di Huang Tang from CD 4 to build kidney YIn when you have excess heat? 

based on what you are discussing ladies re Clomid, I am definitely going to stay away from it cos looks like I really have Yin issues. 

my hands and feet are always ice cold but i cant stand wearing socks (always bear-feet) for some reason socks make my feet feel too hot (in an unpleasant sort of way) so i tend to soak them in really hot water to get them hot and then enjoy while they are cooling off (until they get icy cold again that is). I still cant understand how I can have excess heat and feel cold all the time. they tried explaining but I still do not get it


----------



## Jazzbird

Blythe said:


> thank you for quick reply. i was on the powdered herbs for about 4 months and had the same prescription throughout that time....i also worked with another practice earlier the year before and again they had me on the same concoction for weeks on end without altering it. i get that for the first few weeks....for example my current practice [im on my third doc within it] said they would have me on herbs for a few weeks to warm me up and get temps up and then change the prescription but they never did. I told them i was going to stop as i just could not justify the expense. £20 for acu is quite cheap around my way so thats why i have stuck with them.
> 
> they wanted me to continue taking the Jin Kui Shen Qi Wan throughout the cycle but i wanted something which would nourish yin rather than yang in my pre ovulation phase....i think this formula is a general ki tonic but still id rather change what i am taking dependent on where i am in cycle.
> 
> my cervical mucus is quite good although does tend to dry up just before ovulation. ive always felt the cold and wrap up warm...i rarely get night sweats. i do get lower back issues and i can often feel restless and agitated. i find that i have a whitish coating on tongue and its usually pale. im quite a worrier and sometimes fearful of stuff.....although have found some relief from all this quite recently so hoping the acu is helping.
> 
> i will check foods that are good for ki yin...ive heard tofu is [hang on did you tell me that :wacko: :)]
> 
> some years ago i was very keen to study acu and herbs and was desperate to get onto the middlesex course. unfortunately i just could not support myself as a student and pay off debts etc.... im sorry you are not able to start your practice yet. My DH's ex is a TCM practitioner but has a very rich dad who brought her gorgeous building to set up practice from and paid her an allowance whilst she got the business off the ground and also supported her whilst she studied in china for a year. Jealous....me..no way :winkwink:
> still I would imagine it is a great feeling to be a fully qualified professional so that when the time is right you can do something that fits in with your life.


What was your chart like before you started treatment? I think if you have been to different practitioners and they always put you on the same herbs, this is a good sign - the diagnosis is consistent. I'm unfortunately not trained in herbs (and would love to be as I don't feel acupuncture on its own is enough for a lot of conditions) - so I don't know whether there is a reason for them not prescribing you kidney yin herbs in the follicular phase. I suspect there is a reason - and I would definitely ask them why they don't do that. Be bold - you're practically qualified anyway with your understanding!!!

Pale tongue, white coating - is indicative of Yang Deficiency, as is cold hands and feet.

There is another branch of acupuncture you might have heard of called 5 element acupuncture. They diagnose based on emotional imbalance and diagnose you with an element imbalance. Even though the 2 branches are different, they usually wind up treating in a similar way. The Kidneys belong to the Water element - which is associated with Fear/worry. So it is not surprising that you are fearful/worry when you have a strong Kidney Yang imbalance. As you Yang improves, you may find that you are a bit stronger emotionally.

I'm primarily Kidney Yin Deficient, and I have been diagnosed as a Water. I am fearful about EVERYTHING! It can make life quite a challenge - nothing is straight forward - I have to research everything to the nth degree. It's exhausting!

I think CM drying up around ovulation is normal. I am the same. In fact I get only 24 hours of EWCM usually 3 days before LH surge. 

From what it sounds, it does sound to me like you have a pronounced Kidney Yang imbalance, that has been successfully treated with all the herbs, because I couldn't see any sign of it on your chart.

I'm sorry you didn't get to study at Middlesex. It is prohibitively expensive. I think my course was around £5K per year (3.5 years in total). How nice to have such a rich dad like your hubby's ex. Life is a lot simpler. Maybe not as satisfying though ...

I just looked up Yin nourishing foods for you in the "Baby Making Bible" - have you got this book? It's really good. They say: apples, lemons, honey, eggs, tofu, seaweed, pork, pear, kidney beans, pineapple  

And what an odd meal that would all make together. I love how they just put "lemons" in there. 

Have faith, your cycle looks good - no sign of Yang Deficiency there, so you must be on the right track!


----------



## Blythe

Briss said:


> Blythe, do you think it's Ok to take both black cohosh and red clover blossom? I thought they do the same thing so i just wonder if they may intensify the effect or contradict each other in some way? I've never taken red clover blossom supps but I do drink it as a tea before O (it tastes really nice actually).
> 
> Jazzbird, thank you very much for your tips on meditation I will certainly try your technique. my previous doc was always needling Zigongs (points representing ovaries) regardless of where I was in my cycle and she also used electrics on both Zigongs and REN 3 and 4. I could never relax and my right sigong was always so sensitive even painful. she said if the needled points are painful it's a good sign. do you also think so? my current doc does not needle zigongs only REN 3 and 4 and it was so much more relaxing because I do not feel any pain at all. about pulse and tongue, my current doc said I had very red tongue (apparently means worry and heat) and wiry pulse but the last time he said my tongue looked almost normal and only tip was red. I am hoping this is a good sign.
> I recall seeing REN 1 when I was looking through the conception channel and wondered who would ever be able to tolerate that, it must be quite painful actually. Do you know if you can take Liu Wei Di Huang Tang from CD 4 to build kidney YIn when you have excess heat?
> 
> based on what you are discussing ladies re Clomid, I am definitely going to stay away from it cos looks like I really have Yin issues.
> 
> my hands and feet are always ice cold but i cant stand wearing socks (always bear-feet) for some reason socks make my feet feel too hot (in an unpleasant sort of way) so i tend to soak them in really hot water to get them hot and then enjoy while they are cooling off (until they get icy cold again that is). I still cant understand how I can have excess heat and feel cold all the time. they tried explaining but I still do not get it


I'm not sure re bc and blossom stuff....I'm only taking the blossom clover for 5 days for an extra boost. I'm probably messing stuff up but will be taking a break from bc if it does not work this month....I might drop the dosage of blossom though. 

I got some colour run remover from boots and now I'm dark blond and a bit ginger....it's surprisingly ok so will leave for the week!!


----------



## Jazzbird

Briss said:


> Blythe, do you think it's Ok to take both black cohosh and red clover blossom? I thought they do the same thing so i just wonder if they may intensify the effect or contradict each other in some way? I've never taken red clover blossom supps but I do drink it as a tea before O (it tastes really nice actually).
> 
> Jazzbird, thank you very much for your tips on meditation I will certainly try your technique. my previous doc was always needling Zigongs (points representing ovaries) regardless of where I was in my cycle and she also used electrics on both Zigongs and REN 3 and 4. I could never relax and my right sigong was always so sensitive even painful. she said if the needled points are painful it's a good sign. do you also think so? my current doc does not needle zigongs only REN 3 and 4 and it was so much more relaxing because I do not feel any pain at all. about pulse and tongue, my current doc said I had very red tongue (apparently means worry and heat) and wiry pulse but the last time he said my tongue looked almost normal and only tip was red. I am hoping this is a good sign.
> I recall seeing REN 1 when I was looking through the conception channel and wondered who would ever be able to tolerate that, it must be quite painful actually. Do you know if you can take Liu Wei Di Huang Tang from CD 4 to build kidney YIn when you have excess heat?
> 
> based on what you are discussing ladies re Clomid, I am definitely going to stay away from it cos looks like I really have Yin issues.
> 
> my hands and feet are always ice cold but i cant stand wearing socks (always bear-feet) for some reason socks make my feet feel too hot (in an unpleasant sort of way) so i tend to soak them in really hot water to get them hot and then enjoy while they are cooling off (until they get icy cold again that is). I still cant understand how I can have excess heat and feel cold all the time. they tried explaining but I still do not get it

Helloooooo

I have never been needled in Zigongs - only moxa & lots of needling on Ren points (4-6). Again, its difficult to comment when I don't really know what the diagnosis was ... I think electoacupuncture is more commonly used for muscular skeletal problems ... but people do use it more widely. I'm just not sure I'd be comfortable with patient experience lots of pain on any point. 

Red tongue is a sign of heat. Heat can be caused by lots of different things. You can get extreme Kidney Yin Deficiency, which means you don't have enough cooling energy to keep the body in balance, so heat can rise up. Or you can get Heat from eating too much spicy food/drinking too much alcohol and coffee. Or prolonged liver qi stagnation can also cause heat.

A wiry pulse is usually indicative of Liver Qi Stagnation if its on the liver pulse, or phlegm if its on the Stomach/Spleen pulse. 

I would need to understand what primary patterns they are treating. For example - is the main issue Liver Qi Stagnation? or is it Kidney Yin Deficiency? Is there heat? Where does he think this is coming from?

Red tip on the tongue means emotional stress. I think you can take Liu Wei di Huang Wan when you have heat, but usually a herbalist can prescribe you a tailored mix where they can clear a bit of heat and build yin at the same time. This is the benefit of your own special mix of herbs.

But it does depend on what's causing the heat in the first place. If its liver qi stagnation - you may want to clear heat and then smooth the liver energy.

I'd go back to your acupuncturist and ask them - what syndromes or patterns are you treating me for? If they say "Heat" - say - where's it coming from?

Don't make any decisions about Clomid, until you speak with your acupuncturist. You need to understand what they are treating you for & ask their opinion about Clomid. If they are treating you for Kidney Yin, they will probably warn you. 

I'm not sure what to think about your feet. Cold hands and feet can be due to liver qi stagnation, not necessarily yang deficiency. Not liking socks, makes me think this is "empty heat" which is associated with Kidney Yin Deficiency. Empty heat is not like excess heat. It's heat that is there because there is not enough yin to keep the body cool. So its a deficient heat.

Go back and ask them what your patterns are  Once you know that, it will be clearer.


----------



## Briss

My temp dropped this morning and I started spotting, am very depressed because it's CD 25! I cant be having a 24 day cycle, not again!!! I was supposed to get AF tomorrow not today and also not have any spotting before AF. Different clinic, different diagnosis and herbs and I again get 24 day cycle, why is it every time I get involved with Chinese medicine instead of getting a longer cycle it gets shorter. they are supposed to be helping me with short cycles not making to worse. sorry, I am just really upset, it's bad enough I did not get a BFP but on top of that I get an even shorter cycle after paying so much for the herbs. I again feel like I am paying to smb to screw my health&#8230; Why is it that everyone around seems to be getting amazing results with TCM and I cant see it getting any better for me. maybe I am generalising but 24 day cycle and/or spotting really upset me. it's not a good sign


----------



## Blythe

Briss - :hugs: for stupid AF and stupid spotting. I can understand you being P'd off....particularly if the short cycles was one of the things they said they wanted to treat.

i have been looking at conceiving with short cycles and theres lots of good stories out there...

https://www.babyexpert.com/forum/pregnancy/any-success-stories-with-a-23-24-day-cycle/178636.html

i know you have had longer cycles in the past and when you see a shorter cycle its natural to be concerned but take a step back and see its not so bad. What i see with you over the last few months is cycles between 24-27 days [good], cycles where you bleed between 4-6 days [good], less clotting [good], ovulation confirmed each cycle [good], DH's sperm count and motility improving [good].....I know none of this has resulted in a BFP yet but IT WILL at some point...just have to keep on going.

i have to say your temps this cycle look post ovulation....just looking at your charts and febs were great too....were you taking a break from herbs then?

for some, TCM seems to result in quite miraculous results and relatively fast too....with us this has not been the case. For me results are very subtle and honestly im not sure if that is down to TCM or some other changes i have made....who knows. When is your next appt at Dr Z's? It would be good if you could give it 3 months although i know its been expensive for you.


----------



## Jazzbird

Briss said:


> My temp dropped this morning and I started spotting, am very depressed because it's CD 25! I cant be having a 24 day cycle, not again!!! I was supposed to get AF tomorrow not today and also not have any spotting before AF. Different clinic, different diagnosis and herbs and I again get 24 day cycle, why is it every time I get involved with Chinese medicine instead of getting a longer cycle it gets shorter. they are supposed to be helping me with short cycles not making to worse. sorry, I am just really upset, it's bad enough I did not get a BFP but on top of that I get an even shorter cycle after paying so much for the herbs. I again feel like I am paying to smb to screw my health Why is it that everyone around seems to be getting amazing results with TCM and I cant see it getting any better for me. maybe I am generalising but 24 day cycle and/or spotting really upset me. it's not a good sign

Hi Briss

So sorry you are feeling so miserable. I totally understand your frustration and disappointment.

I don't really know your history with Acupuncture. So when did you start, and what was the diagnosis? When did you switch and what was their diagnosis? How long have you been with your current acupuncturist?

You've mentioned heat in previous posts, but have you asked them why you have heat in the first place?

If it is Yin deficiency, it takes a LONG time to build up. Especially if this is against a lifestyle which burns up yin. Just to give you an idea - when I first went for acupuncture I went for insomnia. I was diagnosed with severe yin deficiency. My tongue was very red and the coating was peeled with a thick yellow coating. All signs of extreme heat. I went to a briliant acupuncturist who is also a gynaecologist in Aldershot, Hampshire. She said I had the tongue of a menopausal woman (I was 28). She treated me weekly for 6 months with tea pills for yin deficiency. I saw no improvement in my symptoms at all for 6 months, even though she assured me my tongue and pulse was improving. Suddenly, after 6 months - I felt better - almost overnight. I slept well for 3 nights in a row (absolutely unheard of).

So it does take time to take effect and longer if you are still coming home late, eating late etc.

Hugs from hampshire.


----------



## gingmg

Briss- I am sorry. All I can do is offer the same kind words you gave to me. It's ok to feel however it is that you feel. It's true, its a loss of something that never was, but in time you will find your inner warrior again.
As for me, finally have started to come back to earth. Yoga definitely helped. Going to continue weekly accupuncture, and try to do more yoga too. Going to read more books, go to the beach, and build myself up in any and every way that I can. Hopefully, I will be ready to start trying again after the summer. I think we are in much need of a proper holiday. Thank you again for all your support.


----------



## Briss

Thank you, Ladies, no idea what I would do without your constant support. One of those tough pre-AF days where everything goes wrong and you just do not have any more strength to carry on. I am so exhausted from overworking and my holidays plans are ruined, obviously having a shorter cycle/spotting looks like end of the world;

Jazzbird, I started TCM in November 2012 and was diagnosed with yin/yang imbalance, I was told that I have deficiency of both Yin and Yang and it's kidney deficiency, I also have liver stagnation and spleen deficiency but she concentrated on kidney deficiency. my main problem is stress and I need to relax. From Nov to March I had weekly acupuncture: usually REN 4, 6 and 17 (between my breasts), both zigongs (the right one was always painful!, st36, sp10, sp6, du20 and lv 3. Fairly quickly I developed really bad acne and my doc started adding 6-8 needles on my face (chin, cheeks, forehead). I had herbs twice a day. My temp was quite jumpy before I started TCm and after it became more stable and pre O temp got lower. I stopped going to this doc because I could not see any major positive changes and my cycle was short 24 days the first two months then it started getting longer 25 days but after I stopped acu/herbs it was 26 and 27. Also I stopped because I could not deal with acne anymore, it was just getting out of control. It became embarrassing to be seen in public (and I need to meet clients every day). one positive change is I stopped spotting after AF. so I got my normal 6 day AF and not a day of spotting before or after. My normal cycle is 25-27 days and a few 28-29 a year, once every two years I'd get a 24 day cycle. ever since I had this lap (in April 2012) I had a 22 day, 23 day and then most of my cycles were 24-25 days and acu did not make any difference for the better in this respect.

When I showed my list of herbs to Dr Zhai she said to stop immediately because the herbs were causing me to have short cycle. Blythe also had an interesting view on the reason for my acne: I was probably treated for kidney yang deficiency and since I might have plenty of yang/heat already hence the increased acne with my last treatment plan. I was complaining about being constantly cold so maybe she was adding heating herbs i.e misinterpreted my cold hands and feet as being due to yang deficiency rather than liver qi stagnation, cant really say. Anyway, as soon as I stopped the herbs my acne got under control, and my cycle seemed to be getting longer (up until today that is). At Dr Zhai I was told that I have liver qi stagnation which also causes raised heat. In relation to this, my ovary function is effected and as a result, my FSH is elevated and my cycles are slightly shorter than normal. The initial treatment intended to soothe the liver qi and reduce heat. Once the initial goal has been achieved, they will see whether we need to improve other part of my internal system. I was advised to avoid spicy food such as curry and chilli, include plenty of fruit and vegetables in my diet and no alcohol (all of this I have been doing any way). they started me off with raw herbs for the first two weeks (Baishaoyo, Chaihu, Danggui, Gancao, Mudanpi, Shanzhizu, Xiakucao). On my next appointment I was told that I have yin deficiency and my yin needs to be nourished. again, no spicy food, alcohol then followed by powder herbs (Morning tea - QING YING SAN and evening tea &#8211; XIAO YAO SAN). I still have heat that needs to be cleared. It's interesting what you say about empty and excess heat. maybe I should mention not liking socks? did not realise this could be a significant factor. I also crave sugar terribly, almost to the point that I cannot live without this stuff &#8211; does it confirm the fact that I have yin deficiency? I read somewhere that these two are connected. It certainly tells me something about my spleen qi deficiency but somehow no one seems to be concerned about that. 

Blythe, thanks for the link re short cycle, I know lots of women conceive with short cycles (and even more problematic conditions) it's just after they told me that this is my problem and my cycle was improving on its own and coming to them and getting an even shorter cycle! does this mean that their diagnoses is wrong? or they give me wrong herbs or is it just one off cycle&#8230; thank you for pointing out some positives! really important not to lose the perspective. I think my march 25 cycle was the best temp wise it's when I was finishing off herbs from my very old doc up until O. Maybe she was the best doc after all. My next app is on Friday, need to prepare a proper list of questions for them.


----------



## Breaking Dawn

gingmg said:


> I'm so sorry, I have no where to turn. I have absolutely hit rock bottom this week. I have cried for I dont know how many days a row, and I can't stop. I'm grieving something I never had, and I'm feeling so angry and sad. My OH is trying to be supportive, but doesn't understand why I am taking this so hard. I don't know why either. I never had it to loose it, but I am literally at a breaking point. I don't even recognize who I have become I am usually a sweet, carefree, fun loving, all accepting person, but I have compleltly lost touch with every part of who I used to be. I didn't even read any of the posts before me, I just started writing. I have no one to talk to, except my OH, who doesn't understand why I have fallen apart. I am complelty and uterlty alone, and I don't know where to turn. I don't know how to dig myself out of this hole of misery I am in. I want more than anything to get myself back on track, but I dont know where or how to start. This is the lowest of lows I have ever been in. Please help me see the light, because I can't keep going on the way that I'm going on. I'm in so much pain and I can't even tell anyone.

Hi there Hun


First of all...big hug :hugs:

I've also been trying for 7 months with an FS...so clomid, injectables and IUI. All bfns.

I KNOW exactly how you feel....crying...upset...not myself. And trust me, it takes a lot to get out of that hole. But what keeps me going is my DH and a baby one day. It's hard not to have anyone to talk to...so spend time here and talk to us.

Trust me when I say....YOU are NOT alone. I've shed your tears when I wake up and AF appears. Called in sick and stayed home and bawled.

You WILL get that bfp one day....have faith :hugs:


----------



## Breaking Dawn

Jazzbird said:


> Breaking Dawn said:
> 
> 
> My dr does not give me a name like that when she gives me the herbs instead I have a list of ingredients like this for CD8-CD12
> 
> Largehead atractylodes rhizome
> Chinese throwax root
> Barbary wolf berry fruit
> Milkvetch root
> Ginger root
> Asiatic cornelian cherry fruit
> Prepared rehmannia root
> Nutgrass galingale rhizome
> 
> Thanks so much for your help!!!
> 
> 
> Hello again!
> 
> So your acupuncturist is mixing your own individual mix of herbs - which a special mix for you personally. When we talk about "you gui wan" or another formula, we're talking about off the shelf pre-mixed formulas - a patent formula.
> 
> If you look at the ingredients in patent formula - you'll find similar ingredients to what you listed. The difference being that patent formulas aren't really tailored to each patient.
> 
> Its brilliant to have your own mix of herbs, especially if you have a more complex condition. The powders and raw herbs are thought to be more powerful as well (than tea pills, which is what I take).
> 
> The benefit of tea pills is that they are cheaper. Every week throughout my cycle I get a different box of patent tea pills. They cost around £8 and last just over a week.
> 
> 
> You can google all the ingredients and work out what they are treating, but to be honest, I think its a really good idea to ask all about your diagnosis from your acupuncturist & ask lots of questions about what herbs you are taking & why you are taking them & what if anything you can be doing to help inbetween treatments (diet, exercise ... etc.). Also get her to explain your chart to you and what an "ideal" chart would look like - so you can get some indicators that things are moving in the right direction. Fertility is hard to treat, because the patient only sees success once a successful pregnancy is established and this can take a long time. It will help to keep you positive seeing these changes on your chart. Also ask her if you should be seeing improvements in any symptoms.
> 
> Lots of women with Liver Qi Stagnation (and this is very common amongst women) - get irregular and painful periods. It is the main pattern associated with PMS (cramps, breast tenderness, mood swings, irritability etc.).Click to expand...

Wow, it sounds like im pretty lucky with my dr in that she tailors everything to me...even my herbs. 

This is only my second cycle with her....so slowly I've started to ask questions about everything. But I will def learn more.

I generally pay $11-$15 CDN dollars for one supply of herbs that are mixed just for me and it last for about a week.

Also, I don't chart.....but I know things are improving bc my first period while with her was much better ...less cramps,no backache and less clots.

Also, this cycle I took no fertility meds....I had EWCM and O pains!!

Again thx...

Sorry I feel so rude, not asking how your ttc journey is...how is your acu/herbs going?


----------



## Jazzbird

Breaking Dawn said:


> Jazzbird said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Breaking Dawn said:
> 
> 
> My dr does not give me a name like that when she gives me the herbs instead I have a list of ingredients like this for CD8-CD12
> 
> Largehead atractylodes rhizome
> Chinese throwax root
> Barbary wolf berry fruit
> Milkvetch root
> Ginger root
> Asiatic cornelian cherry fruit
> Prepared rehmannia root
> Nutgrass galingale rhizome
> 
> Thanks so much for your help!!!
> 
> 
> Hello again!
> 
> So your acupuncturist is mixing your own individual mix of herbs - which a special mix for you personally. When we talk about "you gui wan" or another formula, we're talking about off the shelf pre-mixed formulas - a patent formula.
> 
> If you look at the ingredients in patent formula - you'll find similar ingredients to what you listed. The difference being that patent formulas aren't really tailored to each patient.
> 
> Its brilliant to have your own mix of herbs, especially if you have a more complex condition. The powders and raw herbs are thought to be more powerful as well (than tea pills, which is what I take).
> 
> The benefit of tea pills is that they are cheaper. Every week throughout my cycle I get a different box of patent tea pills. They cost around £8 and last just over a week.
> 
> 
> You can google all the ingredients and work out what they are treating, but to be honest, I think its a really good idea to ask all about your diagnosis from your acupuncturist & ask lots of questions about what herbs you are taking & why you are taking them & what if anything you can be doing to help inbetween treatments (diet, exercise ... etc.). Also get her to explain your chart to you and what an "ideal" chart would look like - so you can get some indicators that things are moving in the right direction. Fertility is hard to treat, because the patient only sees success once a successful pregnancy is established and this can take a long time. It will help to keep you positive seeing these changes on your chart. Also ask her if you should be seeing improvements in any symptoms.
> 
> Lots of women with Liver Qi Stagnation (and this is very common amongst women) - get irregular and painful periods. It is the main pattern associated with PMS (cramps, breast tenderness, mood swings, irritability etc.).Click to expand...
> 
> Wow, it sounds like im pretty lucky with my dr in that she tailors everything to me...even my herbs.
> 
> This is only my second cycle with her....so slowly I've started to ask questions about everything. But I will def learn more.
> 
> I generally pay $11-$15 CDN dollars for one supply of herbs that are mixed just for me and it last for about a week.
> 
> Also, I don't chart.....but I know things are improving bc my first period while with her was much better ...less cramps,no backache and less clots.
> 
> Also, this cycle I took no fertility meds....I had EWCM and O pains!!
> 
> Again thx...
> 
> Sorry I feel so rude, not asking how your ttc journey is...how is your acu/herbs going?Click to expand...


He he - don't worry. I'm on a short break while hubby is away. I'm meeting him in shanghai on Sunday. I may be ovulating when I see him but more than likely ill miss it. He always seems to be away on ovulation day! He really wants kids so I know it's not on purpose. 

I've been taking herbs/acu for 3 months - chart is starting to change (35 day cycle to 30). 

Feeling a bit low this morning as my iPhone Facebook app immediately presented me with a 3 month uterus picture and 2 birth announcements. Pondering whether to remove it and forget fb for a while. 

Can't help feeling I have left it too late for kids - I'm 36.


----------



## Briss

still no proper flow, over a day now since I started spotting. spotting was just a tiny bit but the temp is down so clearly AF is supposed to be here by now, my head is heavy &#8211; sure sign of AF. I am really concerned that since started dr Zhai's herbs it takes at least a day of spotting before the flow arrives. that should not be happening. spotting before AF is not typical for me. I often spot after AF but not before


----------



## Jazzbird

Briss said:


> Thank you, Ladies, no idea what I would do without your constant support. One of those tough pre-AF days where everything goes wrong and you just do not have any more strength to carry on. I am so exhausted from overworking and my holidays plans are ruined, obviously having a shorter cycle/spotting looks like end of the world;
> 
> Jazzbird, I started TCM in November 2012 and was diagnosed with yin/yang imbalance, I was told that I have deficiency of both Yin and Yang and it's kidney deficiency, I also have liver stagnation and spleen deficiency but she concentrated on kidney deficiency. my main problem is stress and I need to relax. From Nov to March I had weekly acupuncture: usually REN 4, 6 and 17 (between my breasts), both zigongs (the right one was always painful!, st36, sp10, sp6, du20 and lv 3. Fairly quickly I developed really bad acne and my doc started adding 6-8 needles on my face (chin, cheeks, forehead). I had herbs twice a day. My temp was quite jumpy before I started TCm and after it became more stable and pre O temp got lower. I stopped going to this doc because I could not see any major positive changes and my cycle was short 24 days the first two months then it started getting longer 25 days but after I stopped acu/herbs it was 26 and 27. Also I stopped because I could not deal with acne anymore, it was just getting out of control. It became embarrassing to be seen in public (and I need to meet clients every day). one positive change is I stopped spotting after AF. so I got my normal 6 day AF and not a day of spotting before or after. My normal cycle is 25-27 days and a few 28-29 a year, once every two years I'd get a 24 day cycle. ever since I had this lap (in April 2012) I had a 22 day, 23 day and then most of my cycles were 24-25 days and acu did not make any difference for the better in this respect.
> 
> When I showed my list of herbs to Dr Zhai she said to stop immediately because the herbs were causing me to have short cycle. Blythe also had an interesting view on the reason for my acne: I was probably treated for kidney yang deficiency and since I might have plenty of yang/heat already hence the increased acne with my last treatment plan. I was complaining about being constantly cold so maybe she was adding heating herbs i.e misinterpreted my cold hands and feet as being due to yang deficiency rather than liver qi stagnation, cant really say. Anyway, as soon as I stopped the herbs my acne got under control, and my cycle seemed to be getting longer (up until today that is). At Dr Zhai I was told that I have liver qi stagnation which also causes raised heat. In relation to this, my ovary function is effected and as a result, my FSH is elevated and my cycles are slightly shorter than normal. The initial treatment intended to soothe the liver qi and reduce heat. Once the initial goal has been achieved, they will see whether we need to improve other part of my internal system. I was advised to avoid spicy food such as curry and chilli, include plenty of fruit and vegetables in my diet and no alcohol (all of this I have been doing any way). they started me off with raw herbs for the first two weeks (Baishaoyo, Chaihu, Danggui, Gancao, Mudanpi, Shanzhizu, Xiakucao). On my next appointment I was told that I have yin deficiency and my yin needs to be nourished. again, no spicy food, alcohol then followed by powder herbs (Morning tea - QING YING SAN and evening tea  XIAO YAO SAN). I still have heat that needs to be cleared. It's interesting what you say about empty and excess heat. maybe I should mention not liking socks? did not realise this could be a significant factor. I also crave sugar terribly, almost to the point that I cannot live without this stuff  does it confirm the fact that I have yin deficiency? I read somewhere that these two are connected. It certainly tells me something about my spleen qi deficiency but somehow no one seems to be concerned about that.
> 
> Blythe, thanks for the link re short cycle, I know lots of women conceive with short cycles (and even more problematic conditions) it's just after they told me that this is my problem and my cycle was improving on its own and coming to them and getting an even shorter cycle! does this mean that their diagnoses is wrong? or they give me wrong herbs or is it just one off cycle thank you for pointing out some positives! really important not to lose the perspective. I think my march 25 cycle was the best temp wise it's when I was finishing off herbs from my very old doc up until O. Maybe she was the best doc after all. My next app is on Friday, need to prepare a proper list of questions for them.

Hi Briss

Thanks for your case history - its good to get some background. 

What herbs did first acupuncturist prescribe out of interest?

As for the cold feet/hands - I just thought your description was interesting. Very cold feet, but can't stand socks, so you heat them up with hot water and like them to cool down. I'm not sure what this is indicative of - but I think it is worth relaying this back to your acupuncturist and asking them what they think this is. People who are very yang deficient, would most certainly want to keep warm with clothes. 

Perhaps it is a strange mix of Liver Qi Stagnation (cold hands/feet) with pronounced Kidney Yin deficiency causing empty heat/fire. There is a symptom called 5 palm heat (heat or sweating in the palms of the hands, soles of the feet, and the chest) that is due to empty heat. Although I have never actually met anyone who has suffered from this. It is important to remember that the diagnosis is a pattern of illness and you don't have to have all the symptoms to be diagnosed with it. It is a sliding scale.

It does sound like you have quite a mixed condition (of heat & cold together). Now I don't know what is causing the heat for sure or the cold. 

Also I asked my acupuncturist today about the cost of raw herbs. He says they are becoming prohibitively expensive and wasn't surprised when I mentioned £10 per day. So good to know you aren't being ripped off  

I just checked out your herbs. So the morning herb is to drain fire/heat & nourish yin. The evening herb is for liver qi stagnation. This would fit with the cold hands & yin. And yes, if you were taking kidney yang herbs which are warming in nature - this might exacerbate any heat you have. Acne is usually due to Heat as well.

It is hard when you are paying a lot of money and putting in so much effort and don't feel you are seeing results. However, you switched acupuncturists in March? You've only had a couple of months with the new acupuncturist - who to me, seems like they probably have the diagnosis right.

The problem when you have excess conditions (e.g. liver qi stagnation & heat) - is that it is hard to see what the underlying deficiency might be - since it is rare for someone only to have excess conditions. So it is a waiting game to clear heat - and this can take a long time. For example - your acupuncturist probably can't tell for sure at this time whether the Heat is due to prolonged liver qi stagnation or Kidney Yin Deficiency. 

As the Heat clears, the underlying pulse will tell her which it is. Yin deficiency takes a long time too to build. 

I know its incredibly frustrating & we watch for every little symptom for validation that we are on the right track. I'm not sure what to say about the spotting ... I don't feel you have been on these herbs long enough yet to see an effect from them. They take a long time to work their way into your system. The spotting could just be an anomaly.

Hugs from me. If it is any consolation, I am so pleased you are giving TCM a second shot. There are so many women who have trouble conceiving (a lady at my work) who say they have "unexplained fertility" yet in TCM terms they are not in good health (e.g. this lady had alopecia, debilitating migraines etc.) & there is a TCM link to infertility. 

But acupuncture & herbs are not a quick fix (I know you already know this). They work to address the route imbalance of the body - an imbalance that is usually present to some degree from birth (we all have constitutional tendencies towards certain patterns).

Please talk to your practitioner and ask them how long they expect you to be on herbs to clear the heat & rebalance the body. Ask them when you can expect to see changes in your cycle.

I have had changes in my cycle since having acu and herbs, but to be honest last year - without any acupuncture or herbs, I spontaneously had 4 cycles at 30 days. So who knows if it is the acupuncture/herbs that is responsible for my cycle shortening this time round. The only thing that keeps me going is knowing how acupuncture/herbs fixed my insomnia, eczema & constant feeling of restlessness. And also seeing some of my patients get better (woman with horrendous headaches, backache).

Have faith.


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## Jazzbird

Briss said:


> still no proper flow, over a day now since I started spotting. spotting was just a tiny bit but the temp is down so clearly AF is supposed to be here by now, my head is heavy &#8211; sure sign of AF. I am really concerned that since started dr Zhai's herbs it takes at least a day of spotting before the flow arrives. that should not be happening. spotting before AF is not typical for me. I often spot after AF but not before

Just a thought - but perhaps the prolonged spotting could be a sign heat is clearing. If the heat was in full pelt, your period would come in full swing. You shouldn't count the start of the period until its properly there as day 1.


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## Jazzbird

Jazzbird said:


> Briss said:
> 
> 
> still no proper flow, over a day now since I started spotting. spotting was just a tiny bit but the temp is down so clearly AF is supposed to be here by now, my head is heavy  sure sign of AF. I am really concerned that since started dr Zhai's herbs it takes at least a day of spotting before the flow arrives. that should not be happening. spotting before AF is not typical for me. I often spot after AF but not before
> 
> Just a thought - but perhaps the prolonged spotting could be a sign heat is clearing. If the heat was in full pelt, your period would come in full swing. You shouldn't count the start of the period until its properly there as day 1.Click to expand...

p.p.s - just reading my initial reply back. I'm not sure I explained that the not liking socks, could be (and I emphasise COULD because I have not seen you and can't really give you a proper diagnosis) - a manifestation of 5 palm heat on the sole of your foot.


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## Jazzbird

Jazzbird said:


> Jazzbird said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Briss said:
> 
> 
> still no proper flow, over a day now since I started spotting. spotting was just a tiny bit but the temp is down so clearly AF is supposed to be here by now, my head is heavy  sure sign of AF. I am really concerned that since started dr Zhai's herbs it takes at least a day of spotting before the flow arrives. that should not be happening. spotting before AF is not typical for me. I often spot after AF but not before
> 
> Just a thought - but perhaps the prolonged spotting could be a sign heat is clearing. If the heat was in full pelt, your period would come in full swing. You shouldn't count the start of the period until its properly there as day 1.Click to expand...
> 
> p.p.s - just reading my initial reply back. I'm not sure I explained that the not liking socks, could be (and I emphasise COULD because I have not seen you and can't really give you a proper diagnosis) - a manifestation of 5 palm heat on the sole of your foot.Click to expand...

p.p.p.s (!!) I should also point out that the longer you have had a condition, the longer it takes to clear it. This is partly why response varies greatly between patients. Also a patients ability to change their lifestyle makes a huge difference. I didn't really believe my acupuncturist when she told me I had to slow down. I remember getting worse and starting to feel really nauseous all the time 3 or 4 months into my treatment. I took 2 days off work, went to see her and cried my eyes out (I felt like a little old woman!). She said the Kidney Yin, which had already spread to Liver Yin was now in the Stomach making me feel sick. 

At that point, I took a few weeks off work, stopped doing all my outside activities and was really strict when I went back to work that I had to leave on time at 6pm. I think this really helped me get better faster.

Also, after I had got better, I went to a wedding a month later and stayed up very late (4am) ... sure enough, all my symptoms came back for a few days. But disappeared a few days later as I had finally experienced a link between my symptoms and behaviour.


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## melly2

Briss said:


> still no proper flow, over a day now since I started spotting. spotting was just a tiny bit but the temp is down so clearly AF is supposed to be here by now, my head is heavy  sure sign of AF. I am really concerned that since started dr Zhai's herbs it takes at least a day of spotting before the flow arrives. that should not be happening. spotting before AF is not typical for me. I often spot after AF but not before

It could be implantation spotting perhaps...


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## Blythe

Jazzbird said:


> Briss said:
> 
> 
> still no proper flow, over a day now since I started spotting. spotting was just a tiny bit but the temp is down so clearly AF is supposed to be here by now, my head is heavy  sure sign of AF. I am really concerned that since started dr Zhai's herbs it takes at least a day of spotting before the flow arrives. that should not be happening. spotting before AF is not typical for me. I often spot after AF but not before
> 
> Just a thought - but perhaps the prolonged spotting could be a sign heat is clearing. If the heat was in full pelt, your period would come in full swing. You shouldn't count the start of the period until its properly there as day 1.Click to expand...

Jazzbird/Briss - i was thinking the very same thing....the herbs could be keeping the full bleed away for a day longer...the spotting is a sod [psychologically more than anything else]. As you know i am a spotter and i know how upsetting it is...however, i am less fussed about spotting nowadays so long as i have a nice clear luteal phase of at least 11 days.


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## Blythe

Jazzbird said:


> Breaking Dawn said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jazzbird said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Breaking Dawn said:
> 
> 
> My dr does not give me a name like that when she gives me the herbs instead I have a list of ingredients like this for CD8-CD12
> 
> Largehead atractylodes rhizome
> Chinese throwax root
> Barbary wolf berry fruit
> Milkvetch root
> Ginger root
> Asiatic cornelian cherry fruit
> Prepared rehmannia root
> Nutgrass galingale rhizome
> 
> Thanks so much for your help!!!
> 
> 
> Hello again!
> 
> So your acupuncturist is mixing your own individual mix of herbs - which a special mix for you personally. When we talk about "you gui wan" or another formula, we're talking about off the shelf pre-mixed formulas - a patent formula.
> 
> If you look at the ingredients in patent formula - you'll find similar ingredients to what you listed. The difference being that patent formulas aren't really tailored to each patient.
> 
> Its brilliant to have your own mix of herbs, especially if you have a more complex condition. The powders and raw herbs are thought to be more powerful as well (than tea pills, which is what I take).
> 
> The benefit of tea pills is that they are cheaper. Every week throughout my cycle I get a different box of patent tea pills. They cost around £8 and last just over a week.
> 
> 
> You can google all the ingredients and work out what they are treating, but to be honest, I think its a really good idea to ask all about your diagnosis from your acupuncturist & ask lots of questions about what herbs you are taking & why you are taking them & what if anything you can be doing to help inbetween treatments (diet, exercise ... etc.). Also get her to explain your chart to you and what an "ideal" chart would look like - so you can get some indicators that things are moving in the right direction. Fertility is hard to treat, because the patient only sees success once a successful pregnancy is established and this can take a long time. It will help to keep you positive seeing these changes on your chart. Also ask her if you should be seeing improvements in any symptoms.
> 
> Lots of women with Liver Qi Stagnation (and this is very common amongst women) - get irregular and painful periods. It is the main pattern associated with PMS (cramps, breast tenderness, mood swings, irritability etc.).Click to expand...
> 
> Wow, it sounds like im pretty lucky with my dr in that she tailors everything to me...even my herbs.
> 
> This is only my second cycle with her....so slowly I've started to ask questions about everything. But I will def learn more.
> 
> I generally pay $11-$15 CDN dollars for one supply of herbs that are mixed just for me and it last for about a week.
> 
> Also, I don't chart.....but I know things are improving bc my first period while with her was much better ...less cramps,no backache and less clots.
> 
> Also, this cycle I took no fertility meds....I had EWCM and O pains!!
> 
> Again thx...
> 
> Sorry I feel so rude, not asking how your ttc journey is...how is your acu/herbs going?Click to expand...
> 
> 
> He he - don't worry. I'm on a short break while hubby is away. I'm meeting him in shanghai on Sunday. I may be ovulating when I see him but more than likely ill miss it. He always seems to be away on ovulation day! He really wants kids so I know it's not on purpose.
> 
> I've been taking herbs/acu for 3 months - chart is starting to change (35 day cycle to 30).
> 
> Feeling a bit low this morning as my iPhone Facebook app immediately presented me with a 3 month uterus picture and 2 birth announcements. Pondering whether to remove it and forget fb for a while.
> 
> Can't help feeling I have left it too late for kids - I'm 36.Click to expand...


i got rid of FB about a year ago and best thing i did. It really rather liberating and i have no idea why i bothered with it in the first place....im really weirded out by the things people share on that forum and scan pictures are just tacky [apologies im sure your friend is not tacky!] i found myself stalking people i never even knew through sheer boredom.

anyhow, you are far from old...i had my first at 37. i used to have super regular cycles and used to ovulate CD14 but we only DTD once that cycle on CD15 so you never know you could still catch the egg the day after. I had tried for a couple of years before giving up on it all completely.


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## Jazzbird

Blythe said:


> Jazzbird said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Breaking Dawn said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jazzbird said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Breaking Dawn said:
> 
> 
> He he - don't worry. I'm on a short break while hubby is away. I'm meeting him in shanghai on Sunday. I may be ovulating when I see him but more than likely ill miss it. He always seems to be away on ovulation day! He really wants kids so I know it's not on purpose.
> 
> I've been taking herbs/acu for 3 months - chart is starting to change (35 day cycle to 30).
> 
> Feeling a bit low this morning as my iPhone Facebook app immediately presented me with a 3 month uterus picture and 2 birth announcements. Pondering whether to remove it and forget fb for a while.
> 
> Can't help feeling I have left it too late for kids - I'm 36.
> 
> 
> i got rid of FB about a year ago and best thing i did. It really rather liberating and i have no idea why i bothered with it in the first place....im really weirded out by the things people share on that forum and scan pictures are just tacky [apologies im sure your friend is not tacky!] i found myself stalking people i never even knew through sheer boredom.
> 
> anyhow, you are far from old...i had my first at 37. i used to have super regular cycles and used to ovulate CD14 but we only DTD once that cycle on CD15 so you never know you could still catch the egg the day after. I had tried for a couple of years before giving up on it all completely.Click to expand...
> 
> Yes, the only reason I keep fb is because of my semi professional singing career. Its the best way to keep up on the music scene and announce my gigs etc. But lately it feels like EVERY day its a picture of a scan or a birth announcement. Or tedious updates about a baby's potty habits. I mean really! (I removed her from my newsfeed after I read about "sick gate" and "poo gate"!!!)
> 
> Thanks for the encouragement. Seems like I'll have to find a disabled loo at Shanghai airport :haha:Click to expand...
> 
> Click to expand...Click to expand...


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## Briss

thank you very much for all your responses ladies, will respond properly when i get back, my taxi should be here around 3 am, just about 3 hour sleep before flying for a meeting for 2 days, unlikely to get much sleep there either. so much for preserving my Yin :( just to update you, still no proper flow, it's been 2 days!!! am really upset, this never happened before. AF was supposed to come today, I do not usually have 15 day LH. nothing all day then in the evening got TMI a bit of very dark brown spotting (that the usual start of my AF) was about to put today as CD1 (and maybe I should) but nothing since. i guess AF is waiting for an opportune moment to show up in full force like while i am sleeping or on the plane tomorrow morning or during my meeting (am likely to be the only woman there, joy!). it's wrong, not how things usually are with my cycle. obviously if my temp was still up I'd be testing like mad now but the temp was down last two days and i wont be able to check it tomorrow morning (although i do not really need to). will just have to miserably wait for AF. i do not need my LH to be longer, it's 14/13 days and it is fine, I needed them to help extend my follicular phase and delay O. I need to calm down, I am probably making it worse by freaking out like this. I was so happy i cleared my after AF spotting only to get something worse - pre AF spotting :(


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## Blythe

Briss :hugs: I hope you are ok.


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## Briss

AF finally came properly and so heavy, it was just awful and I was stuck at a meeting for hours with no chance to change without making it apprent for everyone else,7 hour meeting with not a single break! after 2 hours sleep and a flight, really tough day. hoping to get a few hours of sleep before continuing the meeting tomorrow morning and then flying back home in the evening. then one more day and I am on holiday for 2 weeks. 

I still think I should put yesterday rather today as CD1 as I never have 15 day LH, it's just strange. i guess it will be clearer when I get a peak.


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## Blythe

That sounds like a horrid day :( keep focused on those two weeks. I hope today goes ok and meeting dies not drag on.


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## Briss

blythe, good luck today, I hope everything goes well and diarrhoea stops. cant believe I am sneaking in here during the meeting :)


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## Briss

Jazzbird, thank you very much for your response! it helps me to have faith in acu/herbs.

please see below a list of the herbs prescribed by my previous doctor (which were unfortunately criticised by dr Zhai):

radix bupleuri / Bupleurum Root /chai hu
radix paeoniae alba / White Peony Root / bai shao
Poria / fu ling
white Atractylodes tuber 
Herba Epimedii / Horny Goat Weed
rhizoma curculiginis / Xianmao
radix rehmanniae glutinosae /SHENG DI HUANG
radix angelicae sinensis / dong quai or "female ginseng"
semen cuscutae
fructus mori / Mulberry / Morus fruit / Sang Shen
spina gleditsiae / ZAO JIAO CI / Honeylocust Bark
fructus gardeniae / zhi zi
rhizoma cyperi
radix glycyrrhizae / Liquorice root / gan cao

maybe I do have "empty heat" because I think I have what you call 5 palm heat, my palms of the hands, soles of the feet, and even chest are often sweating. hands are particular problem for me cos I am constantly supposed to shake people's hands so over the years I came up with various tricks to keep my hands warm and dry. sweaty feet is also rather unpleasant, I can never have shoes for longer than a year, no deo thing helps to keep sweating away so shoes start to smell. Does it look like empty heat symptom? what is empty heat and how it's different from excess heat?

I am surprised that none of my docs mention spleen qi deficiency. this is one prominent deficiency that i can always identify based on various chinese questionnaires. I usually tick around 90% of the boxes, things like being fatigued, having lower energy after meal, craving chocolate, hands and feet cold, nose cold, feeling of heaviness in the head, bruise easily, have poor circulation, lacking in exercise, prone to worry, sweating without exerting myself, feel dizzy when i stand up fast, anemia etc. does this mean anything?

I am generally still depressed about 2 day spotting before AF but because I was so busy at least I did not have my usual nervous break down on CD1-2. hubby's being very supportive, got 3 days off work and is taking me to Rome next week for my birthday. Looks like I might be O on my birthday. I am trying not get my hopes up because last year we went to venice for 3 days and I was ovulating, I was so sure I will conceive in venice but obviously I did not. I am focusing my attention on our next appointment with FS in July and IVF/IUI referral.


----------



## Jazzbird

Briss said:


> Jazzbird, thank you very much for your response! it helps me to have faith in acu/herbs.
> 
> maybe I do have "empty heat" because I think I have what you call 5 palm heat, my palms of the hands, soles of the feet, and even chest are often sweating. hands are particular problem for me cos I am constantly supposed to shake people's hands so over the years I came up with various tricks to keep my hands warm and dry. sweaty feet is also rather unpleasant, I can never have shoes for longer than a year, no deo thing helps to keep sweating away so shoes start to smell. Does it look like empty heat symptom? what is empty heat and how it's different from excess heat?
> 
> I am surprised that none of my docs mention spleen qi deficiency. this is one prominent deficiency that i can always identify based on various chinese questionnaires. I usually tick around 90% of the boxes, things like being fatigued, having lower energy after meal, craving chocolate, hands and feet cold, nose cold, feeling of heaviness in the head, bruise easily, have poor circulation, lacking in exercise, prone to worry, sweating without exerting myself, feel dizzy when i stand up fast, anemia etc. does this mean anything?
> 
> I am generally still depressed about 2 day spotting before AF but because I was so busy at least I did not have my usual nervous break down on CD1-2. hubby's being very supportive, got 3 days off work and is taking me to Rome next week for my birthday. Looks like I might be O on my birthday. I am trying not get my hopes up because last year we went to venice for 3 days and I was ovulating, I was so sure I will conceive in venice but obviously I did not. I am focusing my attention on our next appointment with FS in July and IVF/IUI referral.

It does sound like from your description that you do have 5 palm heat (empty heat). 

So empty heat arises primarily because of deficiency of yin. You need a balance of Yin and Yang for the body to function normally. Yin is cooling, moistening, restful energy. When we work long hours, skip meals, burn the candle at both ends - we use up all our Yin energy. So you have nothing to keep you from being too hot (you have no cooling energy) and nothing to keep you feeling rested. As a result - your boiler starts to overheat. 

Full heat is derived from drinking too much alcohol, caffeine, spicy food, greasy food ... it is more like seeing a very overweight person who has enjoyed the excess of life for many years. Typically these people can have quite a red face ....

The two are very different types of heat. Empty heat comes from a lack of something ... Full heat comes from too much of something.

With regards to spleen qi deficiency - be careful about using these tick box checklists. A lot of those symptoms can have a few different causes - and you really need an experienced practitioner to diagnose you correctly. For example:

being fatigued - this is usually either Qi deficiency or Blood deficiency. We live in a fast paced society and so most people have some element of qi deficiency. Our diets are usually very poor in the West - and so most women have some element of blood deficiency as well.

having lower energy after meal - this is usually Spleen Qi Deficiency but can also come from having Damp as well.

craving chocolate - this could be Spleen Qi Deficiency or Damp - but also craving sugar I have heard is linked to Yin Deficiency.

hands and feet cold - this is more to do with either Yang deficiency or Liver Qi Stagnation

nose cold - not really seen this as a textbook symptom for anything 

feeling of heaviness in the head - this is nearly always due to damp or phlegm 

bruise easily - spleen qi deficiency

have poor circulation - yang deficiency/ liver qi stagnation

lacking in exercise - this is not really a symptom but a cause. Its primary effect would be liver Qi Stagnation.

prone to worry - Spleen or Kidneys out of balance. Spleen is more associated with worry and overthinking but worrying of the future (fear) is more related to Kidneys. 

sweating without exerting oneself - this is generally Qi deficiency

feel dizzy when i stand up fast - usually Kidney deficiency 

anaemia - Blood Deficiency

What makes this even more complex is that prolonged suffering of one thing may cause another. So if you suffer with Spleen Qi Deficiency for a long time, this can give rise to damp. If you have Kidney Yin deficiency for a long time, this creates empty heat. Then the Yin Deficiency can then move into different organs (this isn't the physical organ, more the energetic component of one). 

You do sound like you have quite a mixed condition - of quite a few patterns together. The skill of any acupuncturist/herbalist is to decide which to treat first - particularly as one pattern can cause another. It wouldn't be a very sensible to treat everything all together.

From what you have said, I think your acupuncturist is doing a clearing treatment - to get rid of heat & liver qi stagnation. These can have quite an effect on your pulses and tongue and can mask underlying deficiencies. As these start to clear, the underlying deficiencies will become clearer and the next stage of treatment will be clearer. Treatment is long term and is often in several stages.

I would try to stop questioning your acupuncturists diagnosis - its good to understand what they think the problem is and what you can do to help but I would avoid checking and researching their diagnosis (this is coming from someone who is TERRIBLE at doing this!!). It does take 4 years to train in Chinese Medicine (longer for herbs as well) and whilst the concepts can be understood fairly easily, the treatment is more complex, especially when you have a patient with lots of different types of patterns. It's like untangling a load of necklaces, it takes time, patience and it happens in stages. 

Also you really must try to relax & be patient (I know its easier said than done). You are taking charge of your health by going for treatment. The one thing that will help you get better faster is to slow down, relax and try to trust in your practitioner (I know thats hard when you've not had a good experience with another practitioner). The one thing that will help you is to try and slow down, eat well and at regular times. Make sure you relax as much as possible.


----------



## Jazzbird

Briss said:


> Jazzbird, thank you very much for your response! it helps me to have faith in acu/herbs.
> 
> please see below a list of the herbs prescribed by my previous doctor (which were unfortunately criticised by dr Zhai):
> 
> radix bupleuri / Bupleurum Root /chai hu
> radix paeoniae alba / White Peony Root / bai shao
> Poria / fu ling
> white Atractylodes tuber
> Herba Epimedii / Horny Goat Weed
> rhizoma curculiginis / Xianmao
> radix rehmanniae glutinosae /SHENG DI HUANG
> radix angelicae sinensis / dong quai or "female ginseng"
> semen cuscutae
> fructus mori / Mulberry / Morus fruit / Sang Shen
> spina gleditsiae / ZAO JIAO CI / Honeylocust Bark
> fructus gardeniae / zhi zi
> rhizoma cyperi
> radix glycyrrhizae / Liquorice root / gan cao
> 
> maybe I do have "empty heat" because I think I have what you call 5 palm heat, my palms of the hands, soles of the feet, and even chest are often sweating. hands are particular problem for me cos I am constantly supposed to shake people's hands so over the years I came up with various tricks to keep my hands warm and dry. sweaty feet is also rather unpleasant, I can never have shoes for longer than a year, no deo thing helps to keep sweating away so shoes start to smell. Does it look like empty heat symptom? what is empty heat and how it's different from excess heat?
> 
> I am surprised that none of my docs mention spleen qi deficiency. this is one prominent deficiency that i can always identify based on various chinese questionnaires. I usually tick around 90% of the boxes, things like being fatigued, having lower energy after meal, craving chocolate, hands and feet cold, nose cold, feeling of heaviness in the head, bruise easily, have poor circulation, lacking in exercise, prone to worry, sweating without exerting myself, feel dizzy when i stand up fast, anemia etc. does this mean anything?
> 
> I am generally still depressed about 2 day spotting before AF but because I was so busy at least I did not have my usual nervous break down on CD1-2. hubby's being very supportive, got 3 days off work and is taking me to Rome next week for my birthday. Looks like I might be O on my birthday. I am trying not get my hopes up because last year we went to venice for 3 days and I was ovulating, I was so sure I will conceive in venice but obviously I did not. I am focusing my attention on our next appointment with FS in July and IVF/IUI referral.

ps I should probably add that you have both empty heat and some element of full heat (coming from prolonged liver Qi Stagnation).


----------



## Briss

Jazzbird, thanks for explaining all this. I think it makes sense to me now, I have empty heat due deficiency of yin. 

I had my follow up appointment at dr Zhai's yesterday, and the doc looked at my chart and said despite spotting and all it looked very good and generally he does not see any reason why I cant conceive despite heat etc so he also concluded that we have sperm issue. the heat can only play a role once I am pregnant it can cause a m/c. It was nice to hear that there seem to be nothing wrong with me but depressing to know there is little I can do to improve our chances, it's all down to my DH. I still want to continue with TCM as really want to keep my body in optimal shape, also really need my Yin to improve to prepare for IVF. the doc said my Yin is very low because of my lifestyle and age but it will get even lower after 40. shockingly I was advised to go to bed at 10/11 pm! and at 9 pm during winter time. how's that even possible when I usually get home after midnight... I expressed my concern about spotting for 2 days but the doc was not concerned at all, he said spotting is not great but during the treatment there can be any number of things happening while my body is trying to balance itself so he does not see it as anything of importance. I am confused cos I do not know which one is CD1, he said it's effectively day 3 when I had full flow but I am not so sure because my temp dropped two days before that which means progesterone dropped so my hormones were changing and I need to know which one is CD3 so i could take my FSH blood test precisely on CD3. 

the doc said we should continuing clearing heat so unfortunately I am staying for another 2 weeks with the same nasty herbs. mainly cos I am not emptying my bowel every morning :( this is very important cos otherwise it can have mechanical pressure on my pelvic area. he said heat can cause my period to come early so it may be that my LH will get even longer than my usual 13/14 days. to be honest I'd rather O later. the tip of my tongue was still red, pulse was wiry. i also still have liver stagnation. 

re spleen qi deficiency, interestingly the doc also said that's not my problem, it appears that I may have slight spleen qi deficiency but only because my liver energy is too strong even aggressive so this causes spleen to appear weaker. so I guess self diagnosing from the book's questioners may be misleading. 

I was on CD3 so I had needles on my back, all with electrics. was quite relaxing actually. 

I have not made any follow up appointment cos after paying 300 pounds, felt little overwhelmed with the cost of it all. 

I am off to santorini tomorrow for a few days with a friend really hope to get some sun and do a bit of swimming. had my appraisal at work and was generally praised even called indispensable but somehow this did not transpire into money :( 

Blythe, good luck with your O which seems to be approaching, happy BD!


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## Blythe

Briss - well done on appraisal...perhaps they are thinking of an increased bonus for you. I hope so...i think you deserve it :thumbup:

Have a lovely relaxing time in Santorini...i would very much like to go there...it looks beautiful..you must report back. 

i have managed to get a couple of BDs in and expect to ovulation tomorrow or day after so you never know. DH is out tonight with friends drinking so im about to text him to remind him to stop soon OR ELSE!!

im interested to see he did not needle your tummy during AF...my current doc does tummy points regardless of points but my first doc with this practice would absolutely not go there when i was bleeding...i miss him...in hindsight he was the best one i have had as he always asked where i was in my cycle and adjusted his treatment, albeit slightly.

anyhow, i hope you enjoy your break and it must be brill to know you can wear lots more clothes and i bet you look fab :)


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## Briss

Blythe, thanks! in fact I bought 3 bikinis today :) and am packing my old summer dresses and shorts!! all fit me perfectly. am so pleased, losing weight was the only good thing I've recently achieved. unfortunately I did not reach my old weight but I am going to let it go for the next couple of weeks and try to relax and eat fruit and veg. well done on BD! fingers crossed this is going to be it :) 

this is the second time I have acu during AF and both times they needled my back. my previous doc needled the same tummy points regardless. 

re work, I did ask for a bonus, it did not even occur to them to offer, they said they will think about it...


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## Juniperjules

Hi ladies, I thought I'd join you here. I had TCM last year for a few months before we stopped ttc for a few months. 

I was taking a yucky tasting tea & some little ball type pills firstly, then started having acupuncture too. I started with the TCM bcos a friend had great success with this particular woman who has a great reputation for helping woman get pregnant. 

Wot I def noticed was that it dramatically changed my AF. Sorry if tmi but AF started coming with a much healthier bright red colour & was more consistent than it had been for a long time. She also improved my temps. 

I can't honestly remember much now about wot she told me about my body- but I vaguely think she said stuff about having poor circulation. 

Briss, What u said about cold hand and feet, ditto! I ALWAYS have icy cold hands and feet. I don't feel it or notice it, but other people do. When I touch patients at work they always jump & say 'ooooh your hands are so cold', & OH will jump when I touch him with my feet in bed at nite. In coldest weather my hands & feet turn blue/purple.. But again I don't really feel it myself- its usually someone else (like my mum) who will say 'god look at the colour of ur hands/feet'. AND I also hate having socks etc on my feet!!! The minute I get in the house I whip off socks/stocking etc & always have bare feet.. I don't really even like wearing slippers for the same reason. I also usually end up with my feet out of the bed at nite bcos I feel them getting too hot under the covers. The other thing is that occasionally ill get this weird kind of hot sensation in my hands or feet, but mostly my hands. They'll feel hot, & they will look kind of pink & feel tight... & I want to run them under cold water. All of this seemed to make sense to my TCM lady when I told her anyway. 

So I'm now thinking about going back to her. I can't really afford it. But I've got a referral for a great FS in September, & I feel like between now & then I need to do everything I can to get my body in the best shape possible. I had an antral follicle count done last week (8), & that has scared the s*#t out of me!! So I want to do my best to improve egg quality & whatever else is needed. 

If only it wasn't all soooooo expensive!


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## Blythe

Hi Juniperjules

Welcome :flower: you are right about the expense...it can be prohibitive. I have found a practitioner who is relatively cheap but they don't specialise in fertility treatments and the points they needle rarely change. i am now taking the tea pills rather than the powdered herbs...i am going to start getting them on-line as there are reputable sites selling these pills and a few credible sellers on ebay and they work out much cheaper. I brought a pot from my tcm lady yesterday and they were £10 so i can get them for half this price if i buy direct!

Its great that you had noticeable changes before with acu and herbs. TCM seems to place quite alot on the quality of our monthly bleed, colour, flow, clots etc etc so it sounds very positive for you. I feel i am at a place where my cycle is almost optimum [everything i say is defacto caveated by 'for my age']. i also had my follicle count done recently and they said between 10/11 so not great either but im not too worried. i am hoping to get my AMH results today.


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## Blythe

i have cold hands and feet and cannot bear to be without socks. My DH just asked me to rub some cream on his back and literally jumped away when i touched him...he asked if i was dead because my hands are so cold :(


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## Breaking Dawn

Hi ladies,

Hope you are doing well. AF came last week so I'm now on cd9 today.

Saw my tcm dr today....and I talked to her about my diagnosis. She looked at my tongue and checked my pulses...and she says. Everything is looking good now . I asked her to explains, 

She said my hormones are more balanced now....I have liver qi stagnation and blood deficiency so she has also been trying to energize my blood. She said she is seeing a huge improvement from almost 2.5 months ago. She said I will get pregnant soon,everything is looking good...remember a fertile couple has a low chance each cycle so it will happen...don't stress about it or think too much about it.

I'm on meds this cycle and doing an IUI....

How is everyone???


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## Blythe

Hi that sounds like wonderful progress. It's great to know everything is optimum and on place ready for pregnancy. I hope it happens soon for you :) keep us up to date on iui. I am thinking if trying that but I suspect given my age they will advise me to go straight for IVF.


----------



## Briss

Hi ladies, I am back from my mini holidays in Santorini, it was so relaxing, shame it was short though. Still, my DH is taking me to Rome on Friday for my birthday, should be fun.

I am still lost as to what Cd I am because of the spotting so i will be adjusting my chart once i get my PEAK as I am most likely get a peak on CD10. I do not think you can just say full flow means CD 1, spotting does not count because I do not think it works that way, one woman's spotting is another woman's AF. 

I've been drinking my herbs religiously but I do not think I will be charting this cycle, just really hard with my travels and the time difference. not sure yet when I go for another appointment. 

Blythe, how's your AMH?


----------



## Blythe

Hi Briss - welcome back and im glad you had a relaxing time :)

the results have not yet reached my docs so i will try again on monday. I have my second appt with fertility specialist next weds but would like to get the result beforehand as if its bad i want to deal with the news before seeing her...i suspect she will give me clomid and i suspect i will take it, in spite of my reservations....might be worth a go ahead of any assisted fertility treatments.

Still im at the beginning of another 2WW. i had a confusing ovulation this cycle but got a nice temp rise this morning which made me happy :)

i was reading about what we can consider CD1 to be when it comes to spotting etc...i must find it again and post it! i think it may be nice to leave the charting for this cycle...what with birthdays and international travel i think you can treat yourself to a break [from the temping at least :)].


----------



## Briss

Blythe, it does look like you O-ed a couple of days after your positive OPK. very nice temp rise!


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## RedHawk

I've got my first fertility-focused acupuncture appointment scheduled for this Sunday and am really looking forward to it! I just had an IUI on Father's Day, so this acupuncture treatment will hopefully help with implantation. My sister has gone through IVF in conjunction with acupuncture and is 8 wks pregnant with twins!


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## Juniperjules

Oops! This should've said BRISS! Not 'Brussels'.... your little break sounds lovely! 

I agree with u on the spotting thing too. I had a strange kind of situation this month where I thought AF was starting, cramps & all (which I NEVER get until AF has started), & then what I guess is described as 'spotting'.. But it went all day long & AF started the next day properly. So I thought the second day was cd1, but now I'm convinced the 'spotting' day was cd1, bcos I missed Ov with my smiley opks which has never happened!! I had all the right CM but on the wrong days!!! 

So next month ill be starting the opks earlier just incase!


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## Blythe

RedHawk said:


> I've got my first fertility-focused acupuncture appointment scheduled for this Sunday and am really looking forward to it! I just had an IUI on Father's Day, so this acupuncture treatment will hopefully help with implantation. My sister has gone through IVF in conjunction with acupuncture and is 8 wks pregnant with twins!

great news about your sister and her success with IVF. i really hope the acupuncture helps you....please report back on your IUI and whether it worked or not. :flower:


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## Blythe

Juniperjules said:


> Oops! This should've said BRISS! Not 'Brussels'.... your little break sounds lovely!
> 
> I agree with u on the spotting thing too. I had a strange kind of situation this month where I thought AF was starting, cramps & all (which I NEVER get until AF has started), & then what I guess is described as 'spotting'.. But it went all day long & AF started the next day properly. So I thought the second day was cd1, but now I'm convinced the 'spotting' day was cd1, bcos I missed Ov with my smiley opks which has never happened!! I had all the right CM but on the wrong days!!!
> 
> So next month ill be starting the opks earlier just incase!


i hate missing the LH rise with my sticks..so frustrating. I usually start testing around CD8 nowadays.


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## Breaking Dawn

Hi ladies..

So we had our iui today...and will have another one early tomorrow morning. I feel like I am on my way to ovulating today. 

I saw my TCM dr last night...she did acu on the following points: inside my ears, under my bottom lip, inner wrists, top of feet, ankles, under knees, then 8 needles in uterus and ovaries. she also put heat lamp on my ankles...and prior to removing the needles she did moxi at needles under my knees + over my uterus.

I am to continue to drink the Pre -O herbal tea she gave me on Tuesday. she gave me a Post-O tea to start sunday night...after my 2nd IUI is done. 

And then im in the TWW....

How is everyone!?


----------



## Blythe

Breaking Dawn said:


> Hi ladies..
> 
> So we had our iui today...and will have another one early tomorrow morning. I feel like I am on my way to ovulating today.
> 
> I saw my TCM dr last night...she did acu on the following points: inside my ears, under my bottom lip, inner wrists, top of feet, ankles, under knees, then 8 needles in uterus and ovaries. she also put heat lamp on my ankles...and prior to removing the needles she did moxi at needles under my knees + over my uterus.
> 
> I am to continue to drink the Pre -O herbal tea she gave me on Tuesday. she gave me a Post-O tea to start sunday night...after my 2nd IUI is done.
> 
> And then im in the TWW....
> 
> How is everyone!?


Wow a double iui....lets hope this does the trick :) i have a couple of fertility appte over the next two weeks so i will hopefully find out if iui is an option for me....i hope so.

Its great you are working so closely with your tcm doc....im sure you are getting the maximum benefit tcm has to offer. 

AFM: have been feeling utterly hopeless....all positivity has gone and im so tired if it all. Zero symptoms, zero hope. Im so bored of doing the same crap with no results. I think a week after ovulation is my low point although i usually feel quite positive at beginning of 2ww :( 

just got to keep trying and trust that hope and optimism will return.


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## Goin for it

You never can tell what was the one thing that made things work out, but on our fourth and final try at IVF back in 2000 I decided to go see an acupuncturist that specialized in fertility treatments. I did not ingest any herbs or anything but see her regularly for about 2 months, once a week. I was extremely skeptical, but also quite desperate. 

Of course I cannot swear that it was the acupuncture that was what made that cycle the one that worked for us or just a numbers thing, but it sure dd make me think!!

I wish you the best.


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## Blythe

Briss - not sure when you are back from Rome but wanted to say a big Happy Birthday to you :cake:

i hope you are feeling relaxed and fingers crossed this is your magic month :)


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## Breaking Dawn

Blythe...thanks Hun ! 

I know exactly how you feel about the tww!!! At first it's like really positive I just so sure we caught the egg....then 2nd week is the reality check!!

Hang in there!!

Going for it....thanks for sharing your story!!


I'm now in the TWW....waiting time :coffee:


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## Briss

Blythe, thank you! Rome was fantastic we enjoyed it so much, did not argue which is not typical for us on holidays and I think I ovulated on my birthday cos it was my second peak. We bd but there was smth strange with his sperm it did not have any smell, I mean sperm has this distinct smell that I hate so much but at least I know it s there so not sure. I am now in berlin visiting a friend last few days before going back to work, hate the very thought. It's so cold here. My friend had a one night stand and looks like she might be pregnant, and why not everyone around me is getting pregnant. Totally share your pessimism, I am so tired of going through this month after month. I was not taking herbs after all, just wanted to forget and relax, I mean we did bd on the right day that s a must just cant do the rest of it, need a little break. Was eating like mad particularly in rome but omg they know how to make ice cream! Totally put most of my weight back on so from Monday am starving again because I really enjoyed being slimmer. Tmi, I also got a very embarrassing problem, dr zhai's doc told me to go to the toilet every morning and I stupidly forced myself cos I did not feel like it and now I have a piece of my gut literally sticking out of my ass, it s not painful or anything but it s there I can feel it and hubby could see it, so upsetting, why did I force myself and what am I supposed to do now. Totally distressing, like this is one thing that was missing in my life to be totally miserable. I know pregnant women get it but why me? Sorry for being so negative just needed to get it out of my system. Not sure yet whether I will return to dr zhai's, will finish the herbs and then decide. Btw your temp looks very good, so steady. It s still possible so hoping you won't need iui ...


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## Briss

Juniperjules said:


> Oops! This should've said BRISS! Not 'Brussels'.... your little break sounds lovely!
> 
> I agree with u on the spotting thing too. I had a strange kind of situation this month where I thought AF was starting, cramps & all (which I NEVER get until AF has started), & then what I guess is described as 'spotting'.. But it went all day long & AF started the next day properly. So I thought the second day was cd1, but now I'm convinced the 'spotting' day was cd1, bcos I missed Ov with my smiley opks which has never happened!! I had all the right CM but on the wrong days!!!
> 
> So next month ill be starting the opks earlier just incase!

Juniper, sorry you missed the surge, so disappointing. Do you have a regular cycle? I hope your managed to get a couple of bd in when you had the right cm. this ttc business is so stressful I had a couple of months where I did not get my peak was so upsetting cos I had no idea where I was in my cycle and when to bd


----------



## Briss

Breaking Dawn said:


> Hi ladies..
> 
> So we had our iui today...and will have another one early tomorrow morning. I feel like I am on my way to ovulating today.
> 
> I saw my TCM dr last night...she did acu on the following points: inside my ears, under my bottom lip, inner wrists, top of feet, ankles, under knees, then 8 needles in uterus and ovaries. she also put heat lamp on my ankles...and prior to removing the needles she did moxi at needles under my knees + over my uterus.
> 
> I am to continue to drink the Pre -O herbal tea she gave me on Tuesday. she gave me a Post-O tea to start sunday night...after my 2nd IUI is done.
> 
> And then im in the TWW....
> 
> How is everyone!?

Breaking dawn, good luck with iui, I did not know you can have two iui the same cycle, but I guess if the sperm is good you can go it a few times before o. Was it medicated iui?


----------



## Breaking Dawn

Hi Briss welcome back!

I LOVE the gelato in Rome....I would have one each evening while taking a stroll!!!

This is IUI#3 for me...each of which was femera+puregon. I noticed that some but not all clinics do "back to back" IUIs so as soon as you are surging/trigger then you get 2 IUIs.DH has good sperm count and can go 2 days without issue.

If this IUI doesn't work I will be so crushed....don't know what todo...I know my dr will recommend ivf as that is the protocol at his clinic, but I'm not emotionally mentally ready for that. 

UGH - I'm praying this works it don't want to get my hopes up,

I approx 5dpo today and saw my TCM Dr she did acu and gave me some more post Oherbal powder .

Acu points: top of head, between eyebrows, under bottom lip, between my boobs (this was new - anyone know this point), just below sternum/upper tummy area, one in uterus, inner right wrist, top of both feet, inner left foot, left leg under knee. Heat lamp on my feet for 1st half, then heat lamp on tummy for 2nd half.


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## Blythe

Briss - im glad you had such a good time in Rome. ice cream...yummy!! i have to say i am very fond of Italian men...

sperm is a funny old thing....it can be effected by what we eat/drink so perhaps the ice cream had an effect down there!

nuts about your friend...did she want to become pregnant? it seems everyone is doing it these days...apart from us :(

i went to see the lady who runs create health and she looked at my figures and said dont bother with IUI as would have no effect on my chances and may as well continue naturally. im not so sure about this as putting the sperm right up there [isn't that half the battle] must surely help. 

She suggested modified ivf so that is what i am considering. i was thinking about dr z and chucking more cash at TCM but im now thinking western drugs and clinical procedures!! my AMH is 6.4 which i was happy about but i have been looking at AMH and see vit d3 can have an effect on results....these figures are all becoming quite meaningless to me now.

i have some tea pills which i will start on next cycle...different ones pre/post ovulation. I given up with the pills this cycle as i know this is not the one. i really had a horrible week last week and felt totally crushed by it all...so tired and fed up....my temps are nice and the steady temps do encourage me that all is well in cycle but i can just feel i have AF coming...i get signals days before she is due and they are very clear to me although i know that they can be similar to pregnancy symptoms. Anyhow, i had my pity party and now im over it now and back to seeing what i can do next. i have been given clomid but had to push for it as she said it does thin lining but then later said we could do ivf with clomid. i only have 50mg dosage from 2-6 which im probably going to take alongside black cohosh 1-12. it will be monitored so it will be interesting to see if any more follicles develop.

have a great time in Berlin. i would love to go there. ps - the problem you are currently dealing with...i can totally sympathise..i have the same issue and have done since 2009. i totally dont notice it now...there is tones of stuff on the web about lotions/potions but i imagine it will rectify itself. sometimes you just have to push stuff back inside....wow far TMI for 6.30 am:wacko:


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## Juniperjules

Breaking dawn good luck with the IUI!! 

Briss, God I'm jealous.. I was last in Rome 2 yrs ago.. I LOVE Rome, my sister & I had a few really amazing days there.. And YES the gelato is to die for!!! We have some amazing gelato shops here in melbourne (we have a huge Italian population).. But nothing tastes like ice cream in an Italian piazza! Ahhhh.. Happy memories ; ) 

My cycles are very regular & We did manage some great timed BD, but alas, AF started today..therefore it turns out my suspicions were right, I must've Ov a day earlier than expected, hence why I missed the surge.. I'd had spotting at the start of the cycle and didn't count that day as cd1, but clearly it WAS cd1 as far as my body was concerned! So this new cycle ill be starting the opks a couple of days early just incase. I really don't want to spend the $$$ but am thinking I should def start back with my TCM lady, my AF was just perfect when I was seeing her. No spotting, no PMS, barely any cramping.. Think ill call tomoro. 

Today I also booked for a HSG on Wednesday (yuck) & am also gonna see my GP this week. I want to ask her to prescribe melatonin for me. The FS I'm seeing in September apparently puts most of her pt's on melatonin for at least 3 months b4 doing IVF- help egg quality supposedly. Anyone in here take melatonin??


----------



## Jazzbird

Hello everyone, I'm back from China. Despite all my praise for TCM shortening my cycles, I'm on a very long cycle this month. All good as the delay meant hubby and I could BD around ovulation. I'm now 7 days into the 2ww but I'm not remotely hopeful! As my OH has been away for 6 weeks, we seem really distant. I've been going ever so slightly mad over TTC whilst he has been on some amazing, all consuming journey with lots of similar people from all over the globe. I'm beginning to wonder whether now is the right time anyway for a child ... if only time wasn't an issue!

Hope you're all doing well


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## Blythe

Hi Jazzbird

Welcome back :flower: i hope China was amazing and good news about managing to BD around ovulation time. It must be difficult spending so much time apart particularly when you are so consumed with TTC...it can be a lonely battle during the best circumstances so even more so when your partner is away [i would imagine]. I have found that my DH has absolutely no idea of how i feel and how much this has taken out of me...he is so excited about other aspects of his life that even though i have tried to explain how this consumes my time/energy etc he simply cannot comprehend how i feel. 

i have to tell you that there is no good time to have a child...i tried for a couple of years back around 35/6 and gave up on that and my relationship too. after being stagnant for a few months i signed up to work abroad and it was my intention to start a new life when i returned. i did become pregnant and we did work it out...it has been the making of us but to be honest if we had split afterwards i would have worked something else out. i certainly know the feeling of age being an issue...its a bugger hey!! When is your DH coming back to the UK?


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## Jazzbird

Blythe said:


> Hi Jazzbird
> 
> Welcome back :flower: i hope China was amazing and good news about managing to BD around ovulation time. It must be difficult spending so much time apart particularly when you are so consumed with TTC...it can be a lonely battle during the best circumstances so even more so when your partner is away [i would imagine]. I have found that my DH has absolutely no idea of how i feel and how much this has taken out of me...he is so excited about other aspects of his life that even though i have tried to explain how this consumes my time/energy etc he simply cannot comprehend how i feel.
> 
> i have to tell you that there is no good time to have a child...i tried for a couple of years back around 35/6 and gave up on that and my relationship too. after being stagnant for a few months i signed up to work abroad and it was my intention to start a new life when i returned. i did become pregnant and we did work it out...it has been the making of us but to be honest if we had split afterwards i would have worked something else out. i certainly know the feeling of age being an issue...its a bugger hey!! When is your DH coming back to the UK?

Thanks Blythe for your words of wisdom. I agree - there is no right time to have a child. We flew back together so hopefully things will settle down after a few weeks. I think he just needs some normality. I'm off to see my MIL next weekend - lovely lady - but keeps asking me how old I am every time I see her! I've been with her son for 7 years and so I can't help but feel this is a back handed dig about getting on and conceiving (especially since we got married at Xmas). I think she wishes her son had married someone younger, especially as her daughter had both her kids at 30 & 32. 

Guess I just have to ignore it and not let it upset me. OH won't tell her we are TTC. But perhaps I should try and leave some subtle hints.


----------



## Blythe

Juniperjules said:


> Breaking dawn good luck with the IUI!!
> 
> Briss, God I'm jealous.. I was last in Rome 2 yrs ago.. I LOVE Rome, my sister & I had a few really amazing days there.. And YES the gelato is to die for!!! We have some amazing gelato shops here in melbourne (we have a huge Italian population).. But nothing tastes like ice cream in an Italian piazza! Ahhhh.. Happy memories ; )
> 
> My cycles are very regular & We did manage some great timed BD, but alas, AF started today..therefore it turns out my suspicions were right, I must've Ov a day earlier than expected, hence why I missed the surge.. I'd had spotting at the start of the cycle and didn't count that day as cd1, but clearly it WAS cd1 as far as my body was concerned! So this new cycle ill be starting the opks a couple of days early just incase. I really don't want to spend the $$$ but am thinking I should def start back with my TCM lady, my AF was just perfect when I was seeing her. No spotting, no PMS, barely any cramping.. Think ill call tomoro.
> 
> Today I also booked for a HSG on Wednesday (yuck) & am also gonna see my GP this week. I want to ask her to prescribe melatonin for me. The FS I'm seeing in September apparently puts most of her pt's on melatonin for at least 3 months b4 doing IVF- help egg quality supposedly. Anyone in here take melatonin??



Hi juniperjules :)

No experience with melatonin I'm afraid. Lets hope that hsg gives you a little kickstart....i had mine about 3/4 months back and it was very reassuring to hear everything clear. 

Spotting is irritating. This month has been clear of spotting for me which makes me happy as its something i get quite regularly. If its pink tinged cm i don't count as cd1 but the moment i see red its cd1.


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## Blythe

Jazzbird said:


> Blythe said:
> 
> 
> Hi Jazzbird
> 
> Welcome back :flower: i hope China was amazing and good news about managing to BD around ovulation time. It must be difficult spending so much time apart particularly when you are so consumed with TTC...it can be a lonely battle during the best circumstances so even more so when your partner is away [i would imagine]. I have found that my DH has absolutely no idea of how i feel and how much this has taken out of me...he is so excited about other aspects of his life that even though i have tried to explain how this consumes my time/energy etc he simply cannot comprehend how i feel.
> 
> i have to tell you that there is no good time to have a child...i tried for a couple of years back around 35/6 and gave up on that and my relationship too. after being stagnant for a few months i signed up to work abroad and it was my intention to start a new life when i returned. i did become pregnant and we did work it out...it has been the making of us but to be honest if we had split afterwards i would have worked something else out. i certainly know the feeling of age being an issue...its a bugger hey!! When is your DH coming back to the UK?
> 
> Thanks Blythe for your words of wisdom. I agree - there is no right time to have a child. We flew back together so hopefully things will settle down after a few weeks. I think he just needs some normality. I'm off to see my MIL next weekend - lovely lady - but keeps asking me how old I am every time I see her! I've been with her son for 7 years and so I can't help but feel this is a back handed dig about getting on and conceiving (especially since we got married at Xmas). I think she wishes her son had married someone younger, especially as her daughter had both her kids at 30 & 32.
> 
> Guess I just have to ignore it and not let it upset me. OH won't tell her we are TTC. But perhaps I should try and leave some subtle hints.Click to expand...

Ah MILs......mines a pain in the backside and is not quite so subtle. She will not be happy when she finds out I'm expecting again (I'm trying to be positive and speak about it as if it will happen :)) as she will have an issue with age, the fact that we have not got a mortgage yet and that she thinks I'm a crap parent already. I know this from comments, looks and a bag of paranoia!!

I like to think most women are quite intuitive and that you would not have to leave hints with her but MILs are a unique grouping that appear to require special treatment. Im sure you will find the right way of saying something that hopefully puts an end to those questions.


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## Jazzbird

.[/QUOTE]

Ah MILs......mines a pain in the backside and is not quite so subtle. She will not be happy when she finds out I'm expecting again (I'm trying to be positive and speak about it as if it will happen :)) as she will have an issue with age, the fact that we have not got a mortgage yet and that she thinks I'm a crap parent already. I know this from comments, looks and a bag of paranoia!!

I like to think most women are quite intuitive and that you would not have to leave hints with her but MILs are a unique grouping that appear to require special treatment. Im sure you will find the right way of saying something that hopefully puts an end to those questions.[/QUOTE]

Sounds like you have a particularly difficult one - hope your hubby supports you. I'm not sure which is worse to handle: subtle or not so subtle. Mine is so nice almost all of the time and she herself is hugely sensitive & I have to be very careful with what I say. Then suddenly out of the blue - there is a knife twisting comment which is so subtle, I can't really call her out on it. Hubby always sees the very best in her, so just have to put up and shut up! I guess next time she asks me my age, I'll just state the answer again with no reaction. Eventually she has to get fed up with it and realise its not having the desired effect.


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## Briss

Blythe, I also not quite sure I understand why the lady who runs create health does not think IUI can help. I know that IUI does not have high success rate compared to IVF but everyone's circumstances are different. all your tests came back normal so I would also consider starting with IUI. what is modified ivf? great news on your AMH!! 6.4 is amazingly good I think. I do not really know its connection to vitamin D but I do not think it can change the result dramatically. I am sorry you had a horrible week, I think I am about to enter that usual second part of TWW state of mind, I just came back from Berlin this morning and started with a blazing row with my DH over nothing, fell into pieces and was 1.5 hours late for work cos could not get myself sorted. told my DH that he has 2 cycles to get me pregnant cos I am definitely having a baby before I am 38 whether he helps me or not&#8230;. poor hubby he was so looking forward to my return and all this came as a shock to him. It's so exciting that you will be having a clomid cycle! fingers crossed this will do the trick! are you going to get any herbs to counteract clomid's negative effect like thinning the lining etc? 

Breaking dawn, I really hope this iui works! what DPO you are now? any symptoms? my previous acu doc always needled the acu point between my boobs but no idea why.

Juniper, very sorry AF got you. this cycle I counted my second day of spotting as CD1, even though the doc told me it's not right, I think I really know my cycle better now, shame only because of this spotting mess I cant figure out when to do my FSH blood test cos it has to be on CD3, I can totally understand your frustration. if TCM can help with spotting definitely go for it, with me it seems to be the opposite. I have not heard of melatonin but I would consider anything that improves egg quality. 

Jazzbird, welcome back! what did you do in China? I agree that after 35 things start to move really fast and while you may feel this is not the right time this may be the only time you've got. quite depressing to think of it. my DH is still not ready for a child though&#8230; quite understandably your MIL wants a grandchild I think it's probably hard for them to hold back and not say anything while this might as well be the only thing she thinks about (but have no control over)

re the gelato in Rome, I had one every other hour of the day&#8230;. I am not even going near my scales now need at least a couple of days of proper dieting otherwise I will be so disappointed in myself but who can blame me? apart from gelato I also had pizza (the whole thing) every day! my favourite was gorgonzola pear and walnut pizza, yummy!!! how am I going to survive on my 800-900 calories a day now I have no idea. 

re my friend, no she does not want to become pregnant from this guy cos he is a recovering alcoholic but however unlikely it may happen (just to annoy me)

Berlin was a huge disappointment. the weather was really bad, cold rain etc, people seem poor and unhappy, also I did not get on with my friend as well as we used to so tbh, I am so happy to be back. I think I started to appreciate my career and marriage much more after spending these last few days with my friend who is 38, divorcing her 3rd husband and has no career (she lives quite comfortably off men though)

I will continue with my herbs from tomorrow and may do one more appointment at dr Zhai's. I also booked my GP this week to discuss my newly acquired problem. It's quite disappointing that instead of improving things I seem to get myself into worse shape with all these additional measures and treatments. Since I started acu/herbs last year I got acne, spotting, piles and my cycle is still short&#8230;


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## Blythe

Hi Briss. welcome back to the UK...i hope your first day back at work is not too grim. Sorry to hear about a rubbish start to the day :( 

When the create lady talked about IUI she said no point at all...i think statistically no difference between IUI and girls trying naturally but i thought perhaps she would have suggested giving it a go. the modified cycle is just drugs for about 3/4 days to suppress ovulation or something like that....theres a bit more info on the site.

i spent ages today booking a scan for this clomid round...i have not started bleeding yet but tomorrow will be the day as i had a tiny bit of pink tinged CM so know she is on her way. My PMT has been much less pronounced this month which is always good but i knew about 7/8 dpo that this was not my cycle and i sunk really low. but as ever around this time in my cycle i have moved on and focusing on new egg. its tuff though and i feel like a junkie as i just cannot put this ttc stuff to the back of my mind and lead a normal life free of obsession, even for a little while. The more stats i look at, the more BFP stories i read i just not sure what i am doing is having any effect/influence on my chances...i just have to keep going through the motions waiting for that perfect month when i get lucky.

gosh that was depressing....sorry :( i wanted to say that i have missed seeing your posts briss but it must have been nice to have a break from the internet.

i have found that since TTC this time around became so hard many relationships have changed and im afraid to say some friendships have not survived. sometimes its good to get away to remind ourselves what we have at home. on that point i must say when i read your post briss i pictured your poor DH beside himself with excitement at seeing you this morning before you offloaded...poor sod! im sure he will still be excited when you return home this evening :flower:

i do feel genuinely excited at trying clomid...i will take BC which should help with the lining issue. i also noticed loads of EWCM last month which was great and i put that down to the BC. i have a scan booked for CD 9. ideally it would have been a little later than that buts thats the only time they could book me in. i will have 3 goes with the clomid and after that it's looking like IVF at create. of course my fertility psychic reading said i would get pregnant in July so you never know!!

im having a couple of weeks off acu but will start with my new yin nourishing tea pills on CD1 till ovulation.


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## Breaking Dawn

Briss...I am approx 8 dpo today so should know the results by the end of the week. No symptoms except slight cramping today but I'm taking progesterone so can't trust any thing I feel.

DH and I are booking a last minute trip on Friday ...so I will have something positive to look forward to should the dreaded witch arrive.

I'm just really scared if this IUI does not work ....that's 3 failed IUIs...all had good results both follicles and sperm. What's next? I don't really want t do IVF...I'm scared of the process I'm scared of the emotional and physical toll ...and I scared of it not working!

UGH!

So I'm praying....pls pls plsss work this time


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## Juniperjules

Briss, sorry to hear Berlin was a bust! It is indeed a sad reality that over time friendships change. And ur friends been married THREE times! Holy smoke! It did all sound fairly grim.. I can also picture ur DH waiting expectantly for u to get home.. Then getting a mighty serve from you : ( but I have absolutely done the same thing myself so I totally get it. Even on a smaller scale, I remember noticing one nite how I got home from work at 10.30 & OH was waiting on the front porch smiling, he kissed and hugged me & was in a lovely mood. I walked inside & realised his nightmare of a mother had been in the house messing around with things in the kitchen, & I got SOOO p*#ssed off that I went for the jugular with him!! He hadn't really done anything wrong (except have a nutter for a mum!). And I watched him go from happy to see me & telling me lighthearted silly stuff to just walking away into another room quietly & playing games on his iPhone. It was like he just shut down. His mother has caused lots & lots of those moments between us. So now I HAVE to control my reactions to avoid killing our relationship bcos of his mental mother. 

I've also had a few little moments recently that have given me a much needed reminder to be thankful for my life & to try & stay positive & hopeful about ttc. On the TV the other nite there was a girl only in her late 30's who has the BRCA1 gene. Her gran, aunts & mum have all died of cancer. Her sisters had the prophylactic breast removal & ovaries removed. She didnt, bcos she hoped to have a baby in the last 4 years. She now has ovarian cancer. My mum & I were in tears watching her. A beautiful looking vibrant girl, who now looked thin & frail & tbh will probably die. But, amazingly she was positive, & hopeful about the future. And determined to fight on. My mums sister died at 39 of breast cancer so stories like this girls always hit a nerve with us bcos its so close to home. But it was a truly sobering reminder for me that if this girl can be strong & positive with so much against her then I have to remember how lucky I am to have my health & be even be able to keep ttc- bcos that's one dream she has lost. Now her dream is simply to live. 

Some days I DO feel like it will never happen. But I'm not letting myself dwell on the thought too long.. Bcos I'm a natural catastrophizer.. & I slide down the negativity slippery slope fast! The only way I can do this is to keep telling myself that it CAN happen. 

Breaking dawn, sending u positive thoughts for ur IUI. I really hope this is the one for you. I'm nervous the FS will tell us to go straight to IVF when I see her in sept. mostly bcos of the costs. Mentally I'm happy to do anything, but the $$$$ is a big concern. Where r u going for ur break? Am a little jealous of u girls who are doing little trips! ; ) 

Blythe, good luck with the clomid this month. It is really hard not to obsess. I've got a friend pregnant with IVF twins & another 50yr old friend about to do IVF with DE, & sometimes I think about it & think 'I bet ill be the only one that doesn't end up with a baby!'.. Such a negative way to think. But for some reason I can't help it. Even when I was young I felt that I'd struggle to get pregnant. I think probably bcos my mum had trouble & had 4 miscarriages also b/w my sister & me. So psychologically I felt I'd be the same (for no logical reason!). 

No bump, tww ended in AF! Hey-ho onto a new month! Am feeling good though. Am a good weight but haven't exercised for ages, new plan is to exercise properly until Ov, then only relaxing yoga type of activities from Ov till AF. Also think I'm gonna try doing castor oil pack if I can get my act together to find what I need before Ov (cos u only do it until Ov). 

Jazzbird, Smurfy, Jax... Hope ur weeks are going well! 

Am getting my HSG done tomoro provided AF is completely gone, if not it has to be cancelled till next month & getting my AMH results. Wow, this is a long post.. Would be longer if I wasn't on an iPhone! ; )


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## smurfy

I know exactly what you mean, by tendancy to fly off the handle compared to normal has really highten since TTC. It really isnt fair but sometimes I cant help myself. But I have to remember my husband is also going through this with me and is also trying his best with the vitamins, reducing his alcohol and DTD a lot more since we had see the FS. This month he did 5 times in 8 days, and today I finally got my increase temp so can now have a rest &#61514;

Our next FS appointment is on 5th August, when I believe we will be going for IVF as the option. SA is low but not really low but will be difficult/timely to conceive. We will also have another SA in 2 weeks so will be good to see what has happened.

My sister had her baby at 40 years old, in france etc they have been having children later on in life after career/houses/stability so I try to remember that sometimes, easier said than done I know

Good luck every one


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## Jazzbird

I really like all the people on this thread! It is so nice to read all your messages and know you have a group of people all going through the same stuff.

My hubby's SA came back ok yesterday. I've decided to have a private MOT fertility check. If we are having problems, it looks like it might be down to me. I did a pregnancy test this morning (11 DPO) and it was negative :-( I knew it would be anyway but couldn't resist.

Briss - sorry to hear about Berlin & about your new problem. I think it is really hard when you are working so hard on your health to have something else go wrong. I was in China because my OH was doing a 6 week project. We decided to take the opportunity to do a bit of travelling together.

Blythe - I was thinking about getting a fertility psychic reading too. Who did you get it done with and did you find it useful? I guess you'll only know in August. Good luck with clomid

Juniper - MILs can put anyone in a bad mood, let alone someone who is stressed out TTC. Amazingly, my MIL never had a period and was told she couldn't get pregnant - and she managed to conceive twice by accident. 

Breaking Dawn & Smurfy - hope you're both ok.

Has anyone tried a conception hypnosis cd? I'm thinking of trying it. I think I'm prone to get stressed, so at the very least it would probably relax me. I used to have hypnosis cds for sleeping and bizarrely singing (!!). It would send me off into a trance within 10 minutes. I might have a look around.

We have to keep the faith. Odds are it will happen to one of us soon ... now that is something to get excited about.


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## Briss

breaking dawn, fingers crossed! sending lots of baby dust your way. it's great that you have a holiday booked, where are you off to? I totally understand your position re IVF, am in the same boat just cant bring myself to do it but after 3 years it's probably about time I do. 

Juniper, MILs can be so awful, I am so lucky mine lives abroad! totally agree, your story of this girl puts things in perspective. in our constant TTC misery it's so easy to forget what we have. I guess it was my birthday that made me feel like my time is running out and everything is ruined and it's all over etc I am also naturally drawn to see negatives and risks rather than positives and opportunities. what are castor oil packs for? Good luck with HSG and I hope your AMH results are good. 

Juzzbird, good news on your DH's SA results! one thing less to worry about. sorry about bfn but implantation can still happen after 11 DPO. I really want to see China, maybe Dh and I will go next year 

Blythe, I missed your posts as well!! It's strange but my "real" friends cant really add anything or have a meaningful conversation related to TTC, it just does not work cos they have no idea and I need to spend ages explaining basic things and in the end I just give up trying and change subject. I so hope clomid works the first time for you!! you'll have your first scan on CD9 and when is the next one? are they going to do bloods as well?

I did not know that statistically there is no difference between IUI and TTC naturally, I thought IUI at least should help with CM/cervix issues? I was actually hoping that we could start with IUI cos I really want the conception to occur naturally but maybe I am a dreamer. 

I think 7-8 DPO is still so early but obviously you know your body really well by now. I do not feel anything until about 11-12 DPO and that's when I start getting depressed. unfortunately even then I still cant help but carry on hoping up until I get a really heavy flow and only then I accept the inevitable and focus on the new egg. I think this's just it, we have to do all we can and carry on until that one lucky sperm makes it through to the right egg. I do not think I can just relax and not TTC, I mean I would still try to BD around O. this cycle I did not really do anything apart from CBFM but I still think it's TTC, the rest of it i.e. charting, vitamins is just smth that helps us improve our chances and puts our minds at rest that we are actively doing something positive. it was hard to stay away from B&B but I did not have a choice because there was no internet (I have very basic mobile for just texting and calling). I think it was good to get some time off health wise cos I am always in front of a screen at work and at home, I did not even watch TV last two weeks. 

I actually felt very happy at work yesterday (exhausted cos had an early flight but still happy) and today despite having lots to do, by comparing my life to others while in Berlin I suddenly got a confidence boost and a reality check that actually I am doing really well and things are not as bad as I thought (TTC aside). no idea what was it that made me lost it yesterday but as soon as I got to my office I started feeling better. we spent really lovely evening with hubby, even BD at his initiative (which does not usually happen). maybe I was so exhausted from overworking that I just really needed a holiday. I will try and make sure that I have breaks from work every couple of months because you do not really notice how tired you get until it all becomes just too much. 

I ventured to weigh myself this morning and was pleasantly surprised, I mean I obviously put on weight, just not as much as I feared, less than 1 pound so overall I can practically continue dieting from where I left it. I started back on herbs today. I treated myself to a skirt, size 6! (a bit tight but I am yet to lose 2-4 pounds)


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## Briss

just wanted to share something, I was on a plane waiting for the loo (as you do on a plane) and there was a lady holding a baby in front of me, I was admiring the baby and just for a moment I actually understood how it is possible for a woman to steal another woman's baby. it's so strange but literally for a moment I felt like I cant carry on unless I hold my baby now. I never had such a strong feeling before, it scared me so much. I wonder, can one go mad from TTC?


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## Jazzbird

Briss - why are you dieting?! Size 6 is teeny tiny!! Besides I think it's good to have a little extra weight when ttc - at least that is what I keep telling myself!

I think ttc obsession can make you go ever so slightly mad. I'm only 6 months in and can feel my whole orientation to the world slowly change. I've become a little obsessed with calculating conception time from birth date for acquaintances in relation to marriage dates to try and figure out how long it's taken for then to conceive. 

I just bought a conception hypnosis download today. I had a brief listen and found it incredibly relaxing. Not sure if it would be possible to send via email (because of size) but if anyone is interested in it let me know


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## Briss

Jazzbird, i am not really size 6, was just happy that the skirt fit :) I put on some extra weight while TTC as I also thought a little extra weight is good so I did not restrain myself but with time (years actually) I put on more and more and my clothes stopped fitting me well and I looked rather chubby and so thought it was about time i get my body back, felt really low with LTTTC and no success and really needed something positive, something I can control so I've lost most of my LTTTC weight over the last couple of months, just a little left and I will look like myself again :) how does your conception hypnosis work?


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## Breaking Dawn

Juniper ...the in law relationship stuff can e tough to deal with. I have a hard time with my SIL...my MIL is fine on our visits but she can be hard to deal with sometimes. BUT it's my SIL that treats me awful but thankfully we live in different cities! Thanks for the positive thoughts for my IUI . I agree ivf is uber expensive ....fortunately we have done a lot to save away money so although its expensive we won't be too strained but I'm still scared and I don't want to do it.

Jazz ...tell me more about these hypnosis CDs do you find they work. Do you listen to them during :sex: :haha:

Briss - thx for the support . I am off to either Chicago or vancouver...we leave sat...going to book it tomorrow...just wanted to catch a last minute flight.

On the whole statistics of IUI vs. natural I have heard SO MANY contradictory things. If its the same chances then why? Is it bc drs assume an IUI patient has a fertility issue to begin with so that reduces the chances ? If IUI chances are higher...lower? Then why??

I don't know....I have then able to read a good article on this that makes medical and statistical sense!

AFM....I'm 9 dpo today. I have a work conference on Friday which is 12dpo and I can't go in for pg blood test which I'm supposed to...I dot know if I should take a hpt tomorrow...:shrug:


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## Juniperjules

Briss said:


> just wanted to share something, I was on a plane waiting for the loo (as you do on a plane) and there was a lady holding a baby in front of me, I was admiring the baby and just for a moment I actually understood how it is possible for a woman to steal another woman's baby. it's so strange but literally for a moment I felt like I cant carry on unless I hold my baby now. I never had such a strong feeling before, it scared me so much. I wonder, can one go mad from TTC?

Briss, my mum spent years TCC & also had 4 m/c's between me & my sister. She's told me plenty of times that there where times that she momentarily could picture herself stealing a baby!! And it totally freaked her out! She is a nurse, and at that point still lived in Scotland & was working on a paeds ward that often had abused children admitted.. She said some days she would look at these poor, pathetic little babies & children & think how their parents didn't deserve them.. And she could've easily just taken one of them!! So I'm pretty sure wot u felt was a 'normal' kind of ttc crazy! 

I got my AMH results today. They were 42.8 p/mol. Which means I was in the 75% percentile. Over 75% is supposedly an indicator of PCOS.. But I don't have PCOS. As the GP said, My follicle count was only 8, they would have known after my pelvic ultrasound if I had PCOS. I also have no other symptoms of PCOS. 

So I'm not sure what that number really means for me other than its not low which is what I was so afraid of!!! Also had my HSG which was a complete nightmare, So my earlier crappy day turned out not so bad in the end.


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## Jazzbird

I'm not really sure how the conception hypnosis works - maybe I should try it Breaking Dawn during BD. Now that would be a real turn off.

I'm quite a stress bunny and in the past I've used the CDs for stress related problems like insomnia and singing problems. They have worked really well - and at the very least I find them incredibly relaxing.

Hypnosis is supposed to change thoughts/feelings/behaviours by bypassing the conscious mind and going straight to the subconscious - like reprogramming a computer. I've listened to the CD consciously and it talks about washing away any worries or negativity about TTC and positive thinking about welcoming a baby in your body.

I really believe in the power of the mind to affect the functioning of the body - and my acupuncturist keeps telling me that longer cycles can often be attributed to stress. So figuring I might be spending £350 on fertility tests (the doctors got my blood tests muddled up unbelievably and getting them to do more tests is like trying to get blood out of a stone), not to mention my weekly acupuncture/herb appointments (£200 per month) - I thought - what's another £10?!!!

You have to listen to it before and after ovulation - but I will probably use it 2-3 times a week for a few months.


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## Blythe

Breaking Dawn said:


> Juniper ...the in law relationship stuff can e tough to deal with. I have a hard time with my SIL...my MIL is fine on our visits but she can be hard to deal with sometimes. BUT it's my SIL that treats me awful but thankfully we live in different cities! Thanks for the positive thoughts for my IUI . I agree ivf is uber expensive ....fortunately we have done a lot to save away money so although its expensive we won't be too strained but I'm still scared and I don't want to do it.
> 
> Jazz ...tell me more about these hypnosis CDs do you find they work. Do you listen to them during :sex: :haha:
> 
> Briss - thx for the support . I am off to either Chicago or vancouver...we leave sat...going to book it tomorrow...just wanted to catch a last minute flight.
> 
> On the whole statistics of IUI vs. natural I have heard SO MANY contradictory things. If its the same chances then why? Is it bc drs assume an IUI patient has a fertility issue to begin with so that reduces the chances ? If IUI chances are higher...lower? Then why??
> 
> I don't know....I have then able to read a good article on this that makes medical and statistical sense!
> 
> AFM....I'm 9 dpo today. I have a work conference on Friday which is 12dpo and I can't go in for pg blood test which I'm supposed to...I dot know if I should take a hpt tomorrow...:shrug:

Hi breaking dawn

I should say that I was advised about iui after she looked at my stats/results so it is unique to me. I'm not sure why but will ask when I have next appt. I still don't get it as with iui you get the best sperm closer to the egg so I'm slightly baffled. Perhaps it's my age. 

A hpt should be good for 11 dpo. I have everything crossed for you


----------



## Blythe

Briss said:


> just wanted to share something, I was on a plane waiting for the loo (as you do on a plane) and there was a lady holding a baby in front of me, I was admiring the baby and just for a moment I actually understood how it is possible for a woman to steal another woman's baby. it's so strange but literally for a moment I felt like I cant carry on unless I hold my baby now. I never had such a strong feeling before, it scared me so much. I wonder, can one go mad from TTC?

I can usually handle newborns. I find seeing pregnant women more unsettling. However, I was in a cafe last week with a friend and a woman was sitting down with a newborn who was sleeping. He was dressed in hand knits and was unbearably cute. My heart sank and I felt like breaking down. I just yearned to have a baby in my arms and watch them sleep. I could not stop looking. My friend was totally ignored by me....need to watch that as I don't want to lose anymore due to my ttc issues!!


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## Blythe

Juniperjules said:


> Briss said:
> 
> 
> just wanted to share something, I was on a plane waiting for the loo (as you do on a plane) and there was a lady holding a baby in front of me, I was admiring the baby and just for a moment I actually understood how it is possible for a woman to steal another woman's baby. it's so strange but literally for a moment I felt like I cant carry on unless I hold my baby now. I never had such a strong feeling before, it scared me so much. I wonder, can one go mad from TTC?
> 
> Briss, my mum spent years TCC & also had 4 m/c's between me & my sister. She's told me plenty of times that there where times that she momentarily could picture herself stealing a baby!! And it totally freaked her out! She is a nurse, and at that point still lived in Scotland & was working on a paeds ward that often had abused children admitted.. She said some days she would look at these poor, pathetic little babies & children & think how their parents didn't deserve them.. And she could've easily just taken one of them!! So I'm pretty sure wot u felt was a 'normal' kind of ttc crazy!
> 
> I got my AMH results today. They were 42.8 p/mol. Which means I was in the 75% percentile. Over 75% is supposedly an indicator of PCOS.. But I don't have PCOS. As the GP said, My follicle count was only 8, they would have known after my pelvic ultrasound if I had PCOS. I also have no other symptoms of PCOS.
> 
> So I'm not sure what that number really means for me other than its not low which is what I was so afraid of!!! Also had my HSG which was a complete nightmare, So my earlier crappy day turned out not so bad in the end.Click to expand...


Juniperjules

Those results are fab!! Very reassuring. Hsg are horrible aren't they although I had no after effects just intense pain during. FX it clears the way for a bfp soon


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## Briss

Blythe, OMG look at your temp! have you tested again?


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## Blythe

my period is late but no BFP...i suspect i ovulated a little later than usual. i just got back from work and tested. i am having pre AF symptoms on and off. whilst i have enjoyed daydreaming today thinking there may have been a possibility its a bit of a bugger having a late AF as now my clomid scan will be even earlier in my cycle so probably not much use. Having said that it wouldn't bother me too much if the cycles went unmonitored but i need to go to the scan to get the prescription for the next month.

im over this cycle...come on AF!!!!


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## Blythe

my period is late but no BFP...i suspect i ovulated a little later than usual. i just got back from work and tested. i am having pre AF symptoms on and off. whilst i have enjoyed daydreaming today thinking there may have been a possibility its a bit of a bugger having a late AF as now my clomid scan will be even earlier in my cycle so probably not much use. Having said that it wouldn't bother me too much if the cycles went unmonitored but i need to go to the scan to get the prescription for the next month.

im over this cycle...come on AF!!!!


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## Briss

Blythe, sorry, how disappointing. looking at your chart it is actually possible that you ovulated on CD14 or 15 &#8230; I so hate it when this happens as if we do not have enough stress and disappointment already


----------



## Jazzbird

AF arrived! I'm getting drunk!!! Just mixed a mahussive g&t. Gonna play me some jazz.


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## Briss

Jazzbird, stupid AF, so sorry :(


----------



## Breaking Dawn

Hi ladies

I caved today 10dpo and tested ...bfn. Sucks

Also I missed one of my progesterone doses and started cramping...so AF is likely coming.


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## Jazzbird

So sorry breaking dawn. Hugs.


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## Briss

I am also cramping (very mildly), AF is due on Saturday but it feels like it can come at any moment now&#8230;


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## Jazzbird

We're all in sync. How weird! Sorry to everyone for this month - but it's a new month now. Fingers crossed for all of us!


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## Briss

it's so weird but in a way you do not feel alone in your misery, I am in good company and who knows if AF comes I may not even cry this month


----------



## Blythe

Yeah I got AF this morning. Even though I knew she was coming I still googled "bfp after bfn", "period cramps but still pregnant", "boobs not hurting but bfp".... Etc etc i must have revisited the same pages over 10 times now. How boring this has become!!

Anyhow, new month, new chance :)


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## Briss

Blythe, fingers crossed for the next cycle!! I hope this is going to be your month and clomid will do the trick. I do not usually google these pages but I dream anyway even when I start spotting I still think I can be it although I obviously know it's not. that's the main reason I stopped testing cos bfns make me cry but they do not stop me dreaming, the only thing that does is full flow&#8230;


----------



## Blythe

Briss - how's it it going? Are you still cramping? 

I've been drinking strong black coffees every morning. I'm hoping that 2 x coffees a day will be ok and il drop it too just one around implantation time. I know I should cut it out but I really look forward to it when I wake up.


----------



## Briss

cramping got stronger this morning, no surprises here my body feels like it's preparing for AF as usual, am trying not to strain myself so I do not get any spotting until tomorrow, really want to have a clean at least 25 day cycle. 

I am so glad you mentioned coffee! ever since we went to Barcelona I found it more and more difficult to stop myself, while on holidays I had so much coffee it's awful and now I continue with one cappuccino in the morning, it just really brightens my day and something I look forward to when I wake up and nothing else can make me feel like that. After almost a year of terrible struggles and forcing myself not to have coffee during weekdays I have to admit I've failed. coffee and chocolate are two things I cannot live without, I can try and force myself not to have them but it will be a daily struggle, I will feel miserable and it just does not get better with time, nothing can replace these two things. 

re chocolate I watched supersize and superskinny last night and the skinny guy was basically replacing food with chocolate (sounds awfully familiar&#8230; ) and they went on about how unhealthy this is, made me feel so bad. Over the last month I have not really lost any weight but sticking to chocolate helps me not to put any so I feel a bit worried if start eating food more than I do now I will return to what I was in spring. I feel so much better about myself now, so confident in my look, I have not felt like that in years! I went on holiday with a 28 year old colleague who was shocked when she found out my age but I felt confident because my body was no worse than hers (ovaries aside&#8230;) and I do eat one healthy meal a day (meat/fish +veg). actually felt so bad even writing it down that went on and made myself a shot of wheatgrass&#8230; LTTTC is such a miserable business! 

re my new problem, I went to GP but she just said do not do anything&#8230; there is no bleeding or pain, I do not really feel the thing so there is nothing I can or should do. how helpful is this? luckily the thing seem to move back in, it's probably still there somewhere. I started eating prunes daily so I do not ever have constipation &#8230; 

at work things are not great, I know they need me and I did a really good job last year but somehow it did not transpire into decent pay raise, at the moment do not have energy to even raise this as an issue but maybe I should? I know that apart from working hard you really need to spend time promoting yourself and making sure everyone knows how hard you are working. but career is another thing (apart from my body) that I "sacrificed" for the sake of TTC, obviously if one spends hours researching vitamins etc, one wont have enough time to spend on improving your professional skills, self promotions etc. I did this consciously because my priority was to get pregnant. after 3 years of limited career progress and no pregnancy, I am questioning my priorities. maybe I should I just forget about TTC and concentrate on my career, as long as I BD on the right day that's all that matters?


----------



## Jazzbird

Hey Briss

Sorry about the doctors - they are rubbish! They never seem to have any idea on how to treat most complaints. That's how I found acupuncture - last resort for my insomnia. Do mention to your acupuncturist. There are treatments for it. 

Re your career - I think focusing on something other than conceiving is a good thing unless it threatens your general health. 

I may take an art class with my OH as I think it really helps to learn something new, something relaxing and do something fun together.

Life happens when you are making other plans


----------



## Blythe

Briss said:


> cramping got stronger this morning, no surprises here my body feels like it's preparing for AF as usual, am trying not to strain myself so I do not get any spotting until tomorrow, really want to have a clean at least 25 day cycle.
> 
> I am so glad you mentioned coffee! ever since we went to Barcelona I found it more and more difficult to stop myself, while on holidays I had so much coffee it's awful and now I continue with one cappuccino in the morning, it just really brightens my day and something I look forward to when I wake up and nothing else can make me feel like that. After almost a year of terrible struggles and forcing myself not to have coffee during weekdays I have to admit I've failed. coffee and chocolate are two things I cannot live without, I can try and force myself not to have them but it will be a daily struggle, I will feel miserable and it just does not get better with time, nothing can replace these two things.
> 
> re chocolate I watched supersize and superskinny last night and the skinny guy was basically replacing food with chocolate (sounds awfully familiar ) and they went on about how unhealthy this is, made me feel so bad. Over the last month I have not really lost any weight but sticking to chocolate helps me not to put any so I feel a bit worried if start eating food more than I do now I will return to what I was in spring. I feel so much better about myself now, so confident in my look, I have not felt like that in years! I went on holiday with a 28 year old colleague who was shocked when she found out my age but I felt confident because my body was no worse than hers (ovaries aside) and I do eat one healthy meal a day (meat/fish +veg). actually felt so bad even writing it down that went on and made myself a shot of wheatgrass LTTTC is such a miserable business!
> 
> re my new problem, I went to GP but she just said do not do anything there is no bleeding or pain, I do not really feel the thing so there is nothing I can or should do. how helpful is this? luckily the thing seem to move back in, it's probably still there somewhere. I started eating prunes daily so I do not ever have constipation
> 
> at work things are not great, I know they need me and I did a really good job last year but somehow it did not transpire into decent pay raise, at the moment do not have energy to even raise this as an issue but maybe I should? I know that apart from working hard you really need to spend time promoting yourself and making sure everyone knows how hard you are working. but career is another thing (apart from my body) that I "sacrificed" for the sake of TTC, obviously if one spends hours researching vitamins etc, one wont have enough time to spend on improving your professional skills, self promotions etc. I did this consciously because my priority was to get pregnant. after 3 years of limited career progress and no pregnancy, I am questioning my priorities. maybe I should I just forget about TTC and concentrate on my career, as long as I BD on the right day that's all that matters?


do you think you can forget about the TTC stuff though? if you can or if you could consider leaving the OPKing and temping then i think you should...this stuff can add a great deal of stress. i find that a temp dip during the 2ww can completely ruin a day for me. im sure there is little benefit to any of us by continuing to google and you have a really healthy regime in place. Now its just a case of waiting for the perfect egg to pop and the sperm being in the right place at the right time. maybe a good time to look at what you can do to be happier at work...you may find that you dont want to push yourself forward further for other reasons. 

im very happy with my BC. i have to say that the last 2 periods since taking it i have had a really good bleed [i never thought i would say that!!] but it makes me think it really has had a positive effect on my lining and the temps too as i believe it helps with post ovulation prog levels. i will be taking it this cycle with the clomid to try and counteract clomids effect on lining but will not be taking it CD1-12 but probably CD4-11 or something like that as i haven't got as many pills left as i thought.

my weight has stayed the same for a while but im still around 11 stone which is 8 lbs lighter than i was 3 months ago. i just need to get down to 10-10.7 and i will be happy as larry! looking good and feeling in control of our weight is so empowering and i like it as my actions = results unlike my actions in the TTC arena which = NO results!!


----------



## Briss

I had no spotting all day (although cramping was very prominent) and then late at night I got some red type of spotting so I guess it's AF, unusually started with red not brown, I think it's a good sign. without charting it's actually far less stressful so I might stop charting altogether, I guess the main thing is CBFM/OPK and knowing when to BD. also since I know we have sperm issue, i just need to concentrate on making hubby happy so he does not resort to beer. still it's all so frustrating, TTC does not work like anything else in life, effort and hard work does not seem to pay off, nothing does actually, it's all down to chance it seems. unfortunately I am not good with luck, much better with hard work... but then who knows maybe if I start paying more attention to my career and go up I may get a BFP - just to screw things up at work :)

cant decide what I want from work, I do not care about my job but TTC is turning out to be a complete failure. I am seeing out FS next week and will ask a referral for IVF, still do not know if this is the right thing to do. I feel like I am reaching my limits.

You experience with BC sounds very positive! I hope it will work very well with clomid.


----------



## Briss

AF got me today while I was riding a bike :( well tbh as soon as I realised that I will be ovulating on my birthday I knew I was out cos it's just too good to be true to get pregnant on a cycle like this. wonderful things like this just do not happen to me :( cried twice on my way home at a sight of a pregnant woman... had an argument with my DH over trivial matter and asked for divorce - generally I'd say rather uneventful CD1, am loading myself with Pimms and feeling sorry for wasting last 10 years on career when I should have been making babies. nice weather though


----------



## Blythe

Briss - i am so sorry AF turned up today :(

it would have been a lovely month to get pregnant for sure but your perfect month is coming. im just sorry its taking so long.

i have seen a number of pregnant women today and just looked away. i gave DH a good earful earlier as he had not brought any shopping and i was very disappointed to get home to an empty fridge...he is frantically ferreting around sainsburys as i type!! he went out last night and i did not sleep at all...im not sure if it was my first clomid pill or not but i guess tonight will give me a better idea..i was tossing, turning and sweating but maybe its just this glorious weather in london.

pimms...mmmmm :)

hang on in there...it WILL happen.


----------



## Briss

Thank you Blythe, I can always count on you to make me feel better. 

I find it very difficult to believe we can get pregnant with hubby's sperm count, cant help but think we are wasting our time TTC naturally... hate the idea of IVF, do not think TCM works for me, since last October the only two cycle over 25 days were the ones where I did not do TCM and I do not notice any particular improvement in my health. Once I finish my current herbs I will probably do another appointment at dr Zhai's but I am feeling very skeptical and considering going back to my very first doc at whiteleys


----------



## Jazzbird

Hi Briss

So sorry about AF. I can't imagine how hard it must be after so long. Try not to waste energy thinking "what if you had done things differently". So much is written about age and fertility but I wonder if you have problems at 39 how do you know you wouldn't have had problems at 29? Those who conceived easily whilst young then found it hard when older are not necessarily having problems due to age - the body tires after each child. 

I'm also sorry you don't feel tcm is working for you. I believe people generally know what's right for them. I hear you on the ivf front - I always swore I'd accept childlessness before ivf. Now I'm not so sure. 

At least if you try ivf you are doing something positive and a different course of action. My best friend tried naturally for 4 years. Then found out her hubby had low motility and poor morphology. He did tcm herbs which improved his sperm and doctors revised their strategy from icsi to ivf. It worked first time and they have a baby girl. My friend had her at 37.

Hugs anyway. You never know when it will happen and the chances are, it will eventually 

X


----------



## Blythe

my body is doing that weird thing where it stops bleeding half way through period...completely stops for one whole day then starts up again. i have only had this the past 3/4 months. strange and there was i thinking BC had been having a positive effect. Im not too concerned but i think its a bit odd.


this month will be nearly two months since DH started on his chinese herbs so im hoping that he will have super'ish sperm by now.


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## Briss

Jazzbird, thank you for your kind words. I am sure age plays its role but I think our problem is still low sperm count, maybe there is something else that's not right with my DH's sperm because his sperm is slightly increased but it does not seem to help us. My FS thinks that his fertility is impaired and that his sperm was never good enough and that IVF is our only option. I am also thinking that with IVF we may have a chance to have twins cos otherwise it's unlikely we manage two children, although I'd rather have a naturally conceived child. I've heard a lot that TCM can improve sperm count but hubby does not believe in TCM and it's impossible to get him to take herbs. our previous doc gave me herbs for him that she said would definitely improve sperm count and I was forcing DH to take them twice a day but they did not change anything. the only thing that had an effect was quitting beer and that's exactly what my FS suggested. 

Blythe, start and stop period can actually be a sign of a polyp or uneven endometrium if it happens every cycle. do you think there is any chance they can do a scan on CD5-6 to check? was it the same before you had HSG? did HSG reveal anything in your uterus? do not want to scare you, I am sure there are other reasons for this because your cycle and temp to me look just perfect.

Had very disturbing dream that woke me up in the middle of the night, was in tears :( in my dream I was going through every woman I know who got pregnant and gave birth in the time I've been TTC, it's like self torturing, no idea why my mind decided to do that to me, after that could not fall asleep for hours, just did not know where to find the strength to carry on. in the morning still feel very deeply depressed, just need to try to get through the next couple of days I am sure I will get better closer to O. 

I am happy I did not have spotting this cycle but it might be due to the fact that I did not take herbs diligently last cycle, hard to say but on the positive side I know that Monday is CD3 so i can finally try and do my FSH test - the results will be very important for IVF referral


----------



## Briss

Blythe, it's so strange that DHEA has such an effect on your hair. I thought it was supposed to make things better, hopefully it's doing its magic on your egg quality which is the most important bit.

interesting how you can see the changes in your life ahead, I cant see clearly what future holds for me because I cant even see the present, one minute I love my DH and grateful that at least I have him in my life but then he does smth stupid and I sincerely hate him and regret wasting 12 years - my most childbearing years on this relationship that does not bring me happiness and children. same with my work, I work far too hard and although I earn good money it's not enough to compensate for basically sacrificing most of my time and energy and i am sure I am underpaid anyway. but then again when i compare myself to other people I see that i achieved a lot career wise and it would not be wise to lose it. I seem to unable to make up my mind about anything these days. the plan was to hold on to my job until I have 2-3 children but now I just do not what the plan is anymore... maybe until I stick to my DH I wont have children so i just need to leave him and do it along... but then that means donor sperm and no farther for my child... I loved my farther so much I really want my child to have this important relationship in life. why do i have to make these terrible choices and cry year after year after year... sorry for being so pessimistic, CD2 is not the best day I cant look at anything positively yet but I am sure I will in a few days...


----------



## Jazzbird

Briss - that dream sounds absolutely dreadful. It must be your sub-conscious off loading all your fears. It is so very hard to stay positive.

Blythe - I've got a stop start thing going on this month too. Starting to wonder if I could be blood deficient as I don't have much of a flow anyway. It seems quite watery (sorry, TMI).

Hubs and I just had a heart to heart over TTC. Up until now I've been taking loads of herbs and getting very stressed about it. Doesn't seem to bother him. Only now he's said he's kept quiet about it as he didn't want to add more stress. Turns out he's finding it really hard too - he said he'd always imagined his life with kids.

Since his SA was good, I'm worried it is me. I don't think I could carry on in this marriage knowing I was stopping him from being a father. He would be an amazing father too. Feels like TTC is pushing us apart.


----------



## Jazzbird

Briss - how would your DH be about using a sperm donor?


----------



## Briss

Jazzbird, I think 6 months is still not too long (relatively), after 35 it normal if it takes a year to get your BFP but it would be good to start your testing if you are sure your DHs sperm is fine. sorry I forgot have you done any bloods, scans, HSG etc? we have done all our tests after 6 months and then we found out it was the sperm, after some time my FSH got higher so age is now also an issue. I am frustrated that western medicine does not offer any solution for low sperm count except for IVF, last two years I've been researching vitamins, TCM and trying to get hubby to quit beer, his sperm count is gradually improving but still not enough to get me pregnant. 

I asked about donor sperm 1.5 years ago and from the reaction i got I take it this would mean a divorce, but then until we try IVF, donor sperm is not a real option


----------



## Jazzbird

Briss - I had day 3 and day 21 blood tests. Hospital muddled up the results and so not sure if they were right. Doc said fsh was "ok"? And progesterone is low. Getting docs to agree to tests is painful - so going to pay and go private.

I'm sorry your hubby won't consider herbs. It is apparently a lot easier to treat than female infertility. How badly does he want children? I will look up some studies to see if I can find a good research paper on it. Perhaps that may help to convince him.

I understand his reaction to sperm donor but that was 1.5 years ago. Surely he must understand that time is an issue. How does he react to the other alternatives - ivf, adoption or no children?

I know 6 months isn't that long. I must remind myself of that more often - thank you!


----------



## Blythe

a bit weird that my period has disappeared...it was quite heavy for first couple of days so im hoping that my lining if not too much of an issue. i will be having a clomid scan on CD 8/9 so i hope if there is anything there of concern they will flag it up although i guess they will just be looking to see what follies doing...not too much at that stage i would imagine!

Jazzbird - what was your FSH? your are right it can be very frustrating dealing with docs/hospitals trying to get the basics established. 

i remember passing the 3 month point of TTC and getting a little worried so i understand at 6 months your concerns only too well. i think the year point really hit me hard and since then i have felt more and more detached from the possibility of it happening. i was really trying to play with this idea of manifesting and positive thinking etc but i can hardly imagine seeing two lines. i had started TTC with a friend [our friendship has since dissolved probably due to this TTC malarkey] and she fell on the second month. i remember talking to her some time later and she said she knew how i felt as she had felt the same when getting her BFN the first month. i tried not to laugh [or cry!]. 

im sure having your DH back in the country will help things along and hopefully your will get your BDing in at the right times :)

yes this period is weird and the blood as been bright red at times :) and then brown and watery at others :( With your TCM hat on what do you think is a normal flow in terms of days?

i have been taking my little tea pills. I got the Liu Wei Di Huang Wan which i think you are also taking for the pre ovulation phase. to be honest im only taking two doses each day of 8 pills each time...are you taking yours 3 x per day?

Briss - i anticipate some changes simply because the alternative is not good. i cannot keep going on as i am in some kind of suspended animation...i feel i have been just waiting until certain things are in place in order to move forward with all the other stuff in my life. its simple stuff really - i don't listen to music anymore and i dont read fiction anymore. i used to be quite a laugh to be around but now i totally avoid social situations and generally keep my head down full stop which is stupid because i have so many things to be grateful for and so many reasons to be happy and content.

this month i will mostly be taking:

pre ov: Liu Wei Di Huang Wan, post ov: Jin Kui Shen Qi Wan
clomid [2 - 6]
folate 800mg - daily
ubiquinol coq10 - upping to 600mg daily

DH is taking: coq10, nan bao jiao nang, maca, l-arginine

might throw in a bit of grapefruit juice and still undecided about BC at this stage!

its 3pm and i have only eaten chocolate and drunk black coffee today...not really in keeping with my [trying to be] healthy lifestyle!!


----------



## Blythe

Just read this and feel normal again....no 'golf ball sized clots' for me:)

https://infertility.about.com/od/causesofinfertility/a/Do-You-Have-a-Normal-Period.htm


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## Briss

Jazzbird, my DH does not want children yet, I am sure it will come to him but by then it will be too late for me. he is doing vitamins etc just because as he says he loves me and wants me to be happy and he can see that having children is really important for me so tries to help me. although I think by now he also beginning to want to have children cos all his friends have families. adoption is not an option for us. 

have they suggested anything to improve progesterone level? but most importantly is progesterone level high enough to confirm ovulation? 

Blythe, thanks for the article, really interesting. my period has always been 6 days so whenever I get more than that I worry and obviously pre AF spotting just freaks me out. although I bleed two tablespoons worth of blood in less than one day, not the whole period as the article says and I am quite sure of it cos I always get 1-2 heavy days when I keep changing pads every few hours and I can feel and see it pouring out of me. from time to time I do wake up in the middle of the night cos i need to change pads (or even sheets) and have a shower. i am never comfortable staying at friends' during my period cos I cant really control my period during the night and night pads do not always help. Before i started TCM I always had large clots but not anywhere near golf ball size - I cant even imagine having anything this large coming out?? 

Blythe, we are so similar in this TTC misery, I also feel like I am in some sort of suspended animation. you can always find a way to put things I am experiencing into words. I avoid social situations as far as possible just because I cant face "when are you going to have children" discussions or any kind of baby talks which inevitable arises because by now most of my acquaintances have children. but I cant shut down completely cos my work requires being socially active so I still go out with colleagues from time to time and act as far as I can as a confident career oriented woman who cares nothing for family life. I do not think (or hope) anyone at work suspects what i really feel

the main thing that should keep you positive and give you comfort is that you already have a child! more over a naturally conceived child. this is big! for one, this is a huge source of comfort but also this is proof that you and DH can have children, you've done it once you can do it again. I worry that smth is not right with DH's sperm apart from count. maybe I am making things up but my MIL's doubts about us having children and her plan to get him to marry a single women who already had a child (yes, she thought that was a better alternative for my DH than marrying me... nice) makes me think she knows something that we do not. My Dh is refusing to discuss this with her and says that she is being overly protective and paranoid so we should just ignore her. but I still worry so maybe we should go through IVF which can sometimes reveal hidden issues.

I am taking this month:

400 coq10
200 Vitamin E
pregnacare conception
1,000 fish oils
800 calcium
Vitamin B complex
QING YING SAN (am)
XIAO YAO SAN (pm)
Grapefruit juice (before O)
wheatgrass shot

+ After O:
vitamin C 1,000

My DH is taking:

Wellman Conception
Vitamin B complex
1,000 Maca
1,000 Ginseng
200 COQ10 
60 Pycnogenol
1,000 Flaxseed oils 
1,000 Fish oils
1,000 L-Arginine
1,000 Carnitine
500 Horny Goat weed
500 tribilus
60 Zinc 
50 Selenium 
800 Calcium 
1,000 Vitamin C 
1,000 Vitamin B12
200 Vitamin E


----------



## Jazzbird

Hey Blythe 

So flow in terms of TCM is basically not too heavy (as this may indicate a spleen deficiency) and not too light (blood deficiency). There should be no pain ideally although cramping is fairly normal. Severe pain - stabbing or twisting can indicate cold or blood stagnation. There should be no clotting - indicates blood stagnation. Main flow should be deeper red. Bright red indicates heat, very dark/black is due to stagnation. In terms of time - 3 to 5 days is normal. Less than 3 can indicate blood deficiency - longer can mean deficiency. 

Briss - tricky when hubby is not 100% on board. I still think he should show his commitment to you by taking herbs. It takes 3 months to improve sperm. What has he got to lose? Just money but perhaps saving money in the long term. 

They haven't suggested anything yet for progesterone. It was 10 I think too low to confirm ovulation but I get + opk and temp rises ...


----------



## Blythe

Jazz bird. Do you ever stimulate points without use if needles. I was using a drumstick to try and stimulate some points and wonder if I it makes any difference. Thank you for your comments re flow...it is very interesting. I never paid and attention to my body or what it did throughout my 20s and fair bit of my 30s too. But I am wondering if sitting there in the morning with a drumstick prised into my ankle is a knob thing to do?!?

Briss - you are so right. The fact we have had a child means so much. I'm so so fortunate. Whilst I did try to get pregnant for a couple of years between 34-6 I never really obsessed but did do some basic blood tests and started reading books etc. I remember thinking how easily this stuff came to others but not to me. It's not really relevant but my brother has 2 IVF boys and his wife sisters all have IVF babies so struggling to conceive is not uncommon in my family. I do feel bad sometimes on some threads when I am upset about this all when I am lucky enough to have a child. But i do understand the yearning and I will be so very very overjoyed when I read of your bfps. I don't understand why it has to be do damn hard for some girls to get pregnant. I sometimes wonder how on earth sperm gets up there...I sometimes wonder if my DHs bits have shrunk as it feels as if whatever is ejected comes straight out (god I hope he never reads my posts!) conception seems like a miracle to me but people are doing it all around....why not us (yet!!)?


----------



## Jazzbird

Hi Blythe

Yes you can stimulate points without needles (although not heard of a drumstick before ) - its called acupressure and people generally use fingers and thumbs to do it.

If you have clotting, then stimulate liver 3. Its between big toe and next toe, about an inch and a half from the web to the ankle (if that makes sense). In China they massage like this all the time. I went for a Chinese Massage that cost £12 - and it was an hour of point stimulation. It was so painful!!! The baby making bible book has recommended points etc. for each part of your cycle to stimulate with acupressure.

I know what you are saying about a lottery. My sister tried for ages to get pregnant and had to go away for work, so they managed one BD 5 days before her ovulation and voila that was the magic month.

Don't feel bad about already having a child. I think secondary fertility must be really hard - you are mourning for the family you have always pictured. And then there is the guilt because you feel like you shouldn't feel like that ... but it must be comforting to know that you can conceive. It is possible


----------



## Briss

Blythe, how was your night? I hope you did not have another sweaty night? Could clomid have effected your period? I am sorry I did not mean to make you feel guilty for having a child, quite the opposite I just wanted you to look at the positives and have more strength in your ability to conceive again. I'd feel exactly the same in your shoes and when (trying to stay positive here and stressing "when" rather than "if") I have my first child I'll start TTC my second as soon as I am able to. Sometimes I wonder whether this whole LTTTC nightmare is a punishment to me for terminating a pregnancy in my mid 20s (which came as a complete shock cos the guy assured me he was sterile (I believed him cos his sperm was a bit strange) and we had sex randomly just a few times, obviously the word ovulation was not in my vocabulary back then so no idea where I was in my cycle and I remember having vaginal douche after every session&#8230;. and yet it happened easily but now when I finally have a family and a decent man it's suddenly became impossible. why is it that good men have poor sperm count?? so yes, I'd go with lottery cos otherwise life is just too depressing 

I've been really bad last few days and ate so much junk and coffee that I did not even bother adding anything on fatsecrets, even after seeing my weight jump this morning I still went on to have even more junk today&#8230; cant stop myself but hopefully will start behaving from tomorrow. I will try and do some yoga and J Fonda this cycle as well cos cant remember last time I did proper exercise. Somehow as soon as I figured out that exercise does not actually help me lose weight I lost interest in exercising 

I am ovulating early next week so wondering when is the best time to book my next acu: just before O or right after O? any thoughts? it might be my last appointment with Dr Zhai, will see 

I did my bloods today and the results are due on Thursday, am a little worried about my FSH cos my IVF referral and funding depends on it.


----------



## Briss

Jazzbird said:


> Briss - tricky when hubby is not 100% on board. I still think he should show his commitment to you by taking herbs. It takes 3 months to improve sperm. What has he got to lose? Just money but perhaps saving money in the long term.
> 
> They haven't suggested anything yet for progesterone. It was 10 I think too low to confirm ovulation but I get + opk and temp rises ...


Jazzbird, this is so strange that you had a temp rise with no sufficient level of progesterone. I heard it happens sometimes but I cant explain it. what's causing your temp to go up and stay up if not progesterone? maybe there was some mistake with the blood test? it would be good to repeat it. 

My DH just does not believe in TCM but he finds it funny to watch me struggle with the nasty herbs and he sometimes wants to drink them just to show me "how this is done", so I think I can play on his vanity and get him to drink them but I need him to do bloods first in order to get the prescription. He thinks I am wasting my money on TCM out of complete desperation and treats it in the same way he would fortune tellers  unfortunately I cant show him any improvement in my health to prove him wrong


----------



## Blythe

Briss said:


> Blythe, how was your night? I hope you did not have another sweaty night? Could clomid have effected your period? I am sorry I did not mean to make you feel guilty for having a child, quite the opposite I just wanted you to look at the positives and have more strength in your ability to conceive again. I'd feel exactly the same in your shoes and when (trying to stay positive here and stressing "when" rather than "if") I have my first child I'll start TTC my second as soon as I am able to. Sometimes I wonder whether this whole LTTTC nightmare is a punishment to me for terminating a pregnancy in my mid 20s (which came as a complete shock cos the guy assured me he was sterile (I believed him cos his sperm was a bit strange) and we had sex randomly just a few times, obviously the word ovulation was not in my vocabulary back then so no idea where I was in my cycle and I remember having vaginal douche after every session&#8230;. and yet it happened easily but now when I finally have a family and a decent man it's suddenly became impossible. why is it that good men have poor sperm count?? so yes, I'd go with lottery cos otherwise life is just too depressing
> 
> I've been really bad last few days and ate so much junk and coffee that I did not even bother adding anything on fatsecrets, even after seeing my weight jump this morning I still went on to have even more junk today&#8230; cant stop myself but hopefully will start behaving from tomorrow. I will try and do some yoga and J Fonda this cycle as well cos cant remember last time I did proper exercise. Somehow as soon as I figured out that exercise does not actually help me lose weight I lost interest in exercising
> 
> I am ovulating early next week so wondering when is the best time to book my next acu: just before O or right after O? any thoughts? it might be my last appointment with Dr Zhai, will see
> 
> I did my bloods today and the results are due on Thursday, am a little worried about my FSH cos my IVF referral and funding depends on it.


my period is so strange..in all my years i have never bleed for only 2 days [spotting after for 3 days]. im not sure if it is perhaps the clomid as the BC is meant to help with the lining. oh i dont know its so confusing that im just backing off from all supplements other than clomid, tea pills and coq10. i had an odd quite large brown clump come out yesterday...quite a fitting end to my strange period!!

no need to apologise at all my friend. i think i wanted to take the opportunity to just say that this process is a little easier for me than girls who are trying for their first but that i understand the heartbreak. its weird as i cannot remember how i felt when i saw my first BFP, or how that pregnancy felt...it all seems so alien to me now. i remember when i was pregnant i used to stick to forums where the girls were having their first pregnancy as i thought others wouldn't get how i was feeling but i feel differently now. A few months ago i saw a friend who had a newborn and i was holding it, i then put it down but did not realise that it had just sort of collapsed and was face down on a blanket. i apologised profusely but i just had no idea how to handle a newborn anymore.

today i made some knickers...i was going for big sexy pin up girl style knickers. i put them on and they look like sacks with some elastic sewn on but it made me really look at my body. i have lost a bit but i am seriously unfit and there is zero tone. i used to be quite athletic so i really must get back into some focused exercise and strict eating. i know that this is the one thing that will really invigorate me in every way.

i have just drunk some really strong raspberry leave tea....do you drink it everyday before ovulation? also i forgot to ask i notice you are taking vit c post ovulation...what does that do?

i have acu on sunday which will be about 3 days before ovulation which is quite good i think. yes i think just prior to ovulation is good timing rather than just after.

fingers crossed your results provide some comfort and mean that ivf is an option through the nhs. i think privately the results mean less though. 

im thinking i will try clomid for 3 cycles then its create for us....FX none of us have to resort to IVF.


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## Jazzbird

Briss - I think it's the herbs that keep my temp up. Before acupuncture my chart showed a very weak temp rise. With kidney yang herbs post ovulation my temp is a lot higher. You see examples like this between east and west. Oestrogen is linked to yin progesterone is linked to yang. Iron is linked to blood deficiency. But the links aren't precise - Chinese medicine can't be measured so precisely as it is energetic. 

Shame your hubby is so skeptical. There are a lot of research papers - would he read any? My friends hubby with poor motility and morphology didn't really believe either. But he felt so bad he went along with it. They were scheduled for icsi and consultant nearly dropped his notes when the new SA came along. He then suggested ivf was now achievable rather than icsi. I'm going to have a look for you tonight for some scientific proof!

Blythe - you are too funny making knickers (as you do)!


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## Jazzbird

Ps briss - the herbs may be working for you. The husband I told you about has always suffered with profuse sweating on his hands and feet. The herbs he took were to clear toxic heat and support kidney. His sweating never stopped but his SA improved.


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## Briss

I make myself raspberry leaf, red clover, mint and nettle tea every other day before O, ideally I drink it every day but I tend to forget and just drink my favourite green tea instead. vit c is good for progesterone levels (I read somewhere) but because it has drying effect on CM I only take it after O. generally vit C should be fine before O if it's not more than 1,000 a day, I am just being extra cautious 

I will book my acu for Monday then I think it'll be a day before O. 

I mentioned IVF to my mum today and she nearly cried, I think somehow she still cant quite believe we are in situation like this. she is very religious and I know she has been prying for us day in and day out for months and months, it's heart breaking that I cant give any good news to my family 

re work, things are getting so busy as people are away on holidays and I am stuck picking up everyone's work on top of my own. I do not trouble myself too much but I can feel the stress is getting to me. 

Jazzbird, I would be very grateful for some scientific proof, so hoping I can get hubby to try TCM


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## Jazzbird

Hi Briss

I think the best reading is in my infertility textbook. The author is a gynaecologist and an acupuncturist / herbalist. She cites lots of studies which are referenced. Your hubby might still be skeptical as the journals are not western medical journals but it is written more with medical language than the more spiritual language often used to describe Chinese medicine.

I can scan in the chapter and send to you. Can you post attachments on this forum?


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## Briss

Jazzbird, yes you can post attachments here but not large ones. what's the name of the book? maybe i can find it on line?


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## Jazzbird

It's called treatment of infertility with Chinese medicine by Jayne Lyttleton


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## vkj73

hi ladies,
i dropped off this thread for a while.

i'm currently on clomid and moving into my 4th iui (hopefully).
i've been really sick, so it seems my body hasn't been responding to
the clomid as well as the last cycles.

i'm going in for acupuncture wednesday. i specifically asked for someone
who specializes in fertility.

anyone else out there on clomid/doing iui? anything in particular i should ask about? i was told by my dr to avoid herbs. thoughts?

thanks ladies :dust:


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## Blythe

Hi vkj73 :flower:

i am on my first cycle of clomid [no iui though] [sweating, cut short my period, weird lumps rather than blood, very very emotional and not thinking rationally are my symptoms, oh and sleeping heavily with nightmares] hurrah!!

i am taking little chinese tea pills and would have no issue taking powdered or raw herbs. some fertility clinics advise people NOT to take herbs whilst undertaking treatments inc. clomid whilst others say they are fine to take. i feel that they can help counteract some of the negatives of clomid [thining of the lining and thickening of CM]. I imagine your acu appt will help with this though :) 

i found this quite an interesting read:

https://www.essence-llc.com/TCM and IVF drugs.pdf

i was thinking of incorporating clomid with black cohosh but having just had the shortest period of my life and weird clotting i am going to just stick to clomid this cycle [i think!]...see study details below:

_*Because of it estrogenic properties, researchers investigated whether black cohosh might be helpful in women who were having difficulty conceiving. Women with unexplained infertility who were not responding clomiphene, a commonly used medication to induce ovulation, were randomly divided into two groups. Both groups continued to receive clomiphene, but the women in one of the groups also received 120 mg of black cohosh. Pregnancy rates were significantly higher in the black cohosh plus clomiphene group compared to the clomiphene only group. *_52http://www.winchesterhospital.org/health-library/article?id=21584


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## Blythe

Jazzbird - thats great about your sister...a full 5 days before ovulation is impressive and i find it very comforting. each month i stress so much about getting the timing right. i still find it incredible that the little blighters get all the way up there and are then capable of knocking around for a few days. 

once i see a smiley face i panic BD [or at least nag DH to try and panic BD0 but may try every other day as then i guess the sperm are stronger and its less stressful overall. 48 without BD seems an eternity when you know you are about to/or have just ovulated.


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## Juniperjules

Hi girls, It sounds crazy but I truly love reading ur posts bcos it reminds me I'm not either 1. losing my mind, 2. losing my grip on reality, 3. A nasty jealous person 4. alone in sometimes mental thoughts that cross my mind... 

I'm managing to feel pretty ok at the moment. But I still have minutes, hours where I feel my mood slipping. Last nite was one of those. I just became very irritable with OH. He hadn't really done anything, he made a comment about me spilling a cup of tea on the carpet & it just set me off!! I was in the s*#ts for the rest of the nite.. 

Blythe I think it was u that commented on putting ur life on hold?? When I read that I felt like I'd written it myself. Simple things like reading books, listening to music, the little things. As well as the big things like not seeing friends who either have kids or who would ask me about our baby making plans. Bcos for years OH just wasn't up for it yet. He's a lovely guy, but he's a Peter Pan who was never gonna grow up. He finally HAS grown up & now really really wants us to get pregnant ASAP... But until recently I have done my best for about maybe 10 years to slowly but surely cut myself off from many friends bcos it was too awkward being around them. And often too painful every time another pregnancy was announced. I've written about this a few times. I wish I couldn't handled things differently but I couldn't. That's who I turned out to be. I'm trying to slowly ease my way back into some of those old friendships... & my friends are happy to see me & it's great.. But I sometimes wonder why they still want to be my friend after my poor efforts over the years???? I have HUGE amounts of guilt & paranoia over it. My mum tells me I'm too hard on myself & that she's always shocked when I say these things bcos i seem to not value myself very much.. Which isn't really true.. I just think I've been a crap friend by being unavailable for so many years..
But, I AM trying now to slowly change things. At work I'm very bright & friendly & sociable.. But I feel like outside of work I became like an isolative hermit.. A weirdo. Yet my nurse friends would NEVER say that about me. Work is kind of a safe place I guess. You can be friends with people without there being too much pressure to talk about really personal things. 

Anyway.. Enough about me. It's just nice knowing ur not the only one thinking these things ; ) 

Someone was talking about thin endometrium lining??? I'm taking 1000iu of Vit E now bcos the FS I'm gonna see in sept tweeted that it helps thicken the lining! Don't know that I have a problem there but every little helps right????


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## smurfy

Briss said:


> Blythe, how was your night? I hope you did not have another sweaty night? Could clomid have effected your period? I am sorry I did not mean to make you feel guilty for having a child, quite the opposite I just wanted you to look at the positives and have more strength in your ability to conceive again. I'd feel exactly the same in your shoes and when (trying to stay positive here and stressing "when" rather than "if") I have my first child I'll start TTC my second as soon as I am able to. Sometimes I wonder whether this whole LTTTC nightmare is a punishment to me for terminating a pregnancy in my mid 20s (which came as a complete shock cos the guy assured me he was sterile (I believed him cos his sperm was a bit strange) and we had sex randomly just a few times, obviously the word ovulation was not in my vocabulary back then so no idea where I was in my cycle and I remember having vaginal douche after every session. and yet it happened easily but now when I finally have a family and a decent man it's suddenly became impossible. why is it that good men have poor sperm count?? so yes, I'd go with lottery cos otherwise life is just too depressing
> 
> I've been really bad last few days and ate so much junk and coffee that I did not even bother adding anything on fatsecrets, even after seeing my weight jump this morning I still went on to have even more junk today cant stop myself but hopefully will start behaving from tomorrow. I will try and do some yoga and J Fonda this cycle as well cos cant remember last time I did proper exercise. Somehow as soon as I figured out that exercise does not actually help me lose weight I lost interest in exercising
> 
> I am ovulating early next week so wondering when is the best time to book my next acu: just before O or right after O? any thoughts? it might be my last appointment with Dr Zhai, will see
> 
> I did my bloods today and the results are due on Thursday, am a little worried about my FSH cos my IVF referral and funding depends on it.

Not long to wait now, we have our FS appointment in a few weeks, hubby going for other SA nest week. Interested about the IVF referral as I know can be a post code lottery as they say, but are you able to get funding? alot of the areas near me are saying over 35 then you pay privately. I did however start going for bloods when I was 34/35 and it was only when i turned 36 that we found out there was a problem with mu husbands sperm count. I am not sure if i should push for the fact that we started having tests done before the age threshhold and it was only that because of my husband having some serious illnesses with his prostate we didnt test earlier


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## Blythe

Smurfy - re the postcode lottery...in my borough its 39 i think. If you come up against any issues then stomp your feet and insist you raised this as an issue prior to the cut off age. This is your NHS and you pay for it. see what you can find on the net for fertility treatments in your borough and go armed with dates and any other stats/info you may need.

the bottom line is most people get pregnant on their own and so [some] docs quite often do the minimum and send you off to keep going naturally. if i had been most insistent about this during my initial months of TTC i could have been taking the steps i am at the moment well over a year ago. 

[caveat: of course some docs are brill and will take immediate steps without you having to push to refer for fertility appt or further tests.]


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## Briss

VKJ, I also heard some docs asking not to take chinese herbs during IVF treatments, but others seem to have a different opinion. I will be asking my FS when it comes to IVF. How's clomid? did you feel any side effects or positives? was it monitored? did they notice any change in your lining? I have ovarian cysts so I do not think I will be getting clomid. I am hoping we can stat with IUI though. how was it? was it medicated? Do you know if you released more than one egg at any point?

Smurfy, in my area we get funding for 3 IUI and 1 IVF but the egg transfer must happen before you are 40. I feel like I still have time but then FSH/AMH show a different picture so it's not all about age. I need to get FSH lowered before I can be referred and get funding. NHS can be quite brutal, so use all your arguments and documents to support your case, but they are so formalistic be prepared that this may not work. 

Blythe, your period does sound strange, I think it's probably clomid. Would be interesting to see your CD 8 scan. I love pin up girl style knickers! but unfortunately I do not have the right shape to wear them, even when I was super skinny they did not look good on me. It's great that you are taking some time off work, nice to relax a bit. It's awful to have a bully at work though, I used to have a colleague that tried to constantly back stab me, it was so tiring to be dealing with her. On the surface we worked really well almost like good friends but then she always tried to do (in a very subtle way) various things to demonstrate how great she is and how incompetent I am. so on top of my work load I also had to make sure people see what I do and how I do it so they do not rely on her in judging me &#8211; it was exhausting! interestingly, she was fired last year and I took her place. it does not mean life is fair though, they probably thought I could do the same work cheaper, nothing personal 

I keep putting on weight, gradually most of it is creeping back on &#8230; cant stop eating, and it's happening so fast. do not have the strength anymore to keep myself away from food (tbh feels good to eat whatever you fancy). also there is a thought at the back of my mind that it's better to have extra weight to counteract negative effects of IVF drugs. also somehow I do not seem to care anymore whether I look good (although it might be because I still do and my attitude will change as soon as I stop fitting into my clothes). find it harder and harder to say no to coffee&#8230;

Booked my next acu for Monday - a day before O. I am not happy with financial cost of it all. I may start taking little Chinese tea pills cos I think by now we know what we need to take at each point in our cycles to reinforce Yin/Yang. I definitely need more Yin support. trying to get Dh to do bloods so I could get prescription for his herbs. I may stop the herbs for the next cycle just to check again whether I may get a longer cycle without them in which case I will probably stop the herbs altogether. I think I need to concentrate on my DH and get him to take herbs, although quitting beer would probably do more good than anything else. 

find it really hard to see bumps all around... and that royal baby paranoia is getting to me. Our secretaries bring their babies to work to show off &#8211; makes me feel very sad. feel like writing this cycle off already cos my mind-set is all wrong, for some reason AF hit me really hard this cycle and I find it more difficult to recover and concentrate on the next egg then before. I think I do not believe my DH and I can do it, trying to have positive IVF thoughts. I set my cup at UCH, I think they take NHS patients at their Reproductive Medicine Unit while CRGH (The Centre for Reproductive and Genetic Health) is their private unit so I can continue privately if the 1st attempt is not successful.


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## Blythe

Hi briss :)

I had my scan and i had 2 x dominant folicles measuring 12-13mm on right ovary and a few others knocking around but only 2 dominant. She said they usually pop around 18-20mm but ive read that they need to be larger than that. She said my lining was ok but not great. No sign of endo. Im on cd7 today so im really pleased with this scan. 

I have picked up 2 months worth of clomid and il do those....they wont be monitored with scans but they have given me blood forms for prog tests. They is nothing else i can do with nhs but im very pleased to have the clomid.

She said i should go for ivf (different lady today) and also said not really worth going for iui as my chances would be much improved with ivf. She simply could not understand why i would bother with iui. I guess time is of the essense given my age etc

She finished by warning me of increased chances of twins with clomid. I guess they have to state that somewhere along the way. Although it would be a Logistical/financial headache i would be in heaven if i found out i was having twins. Would be in heaven with one too. 

Got home to dh in kitchen watching tour de france on laptop and cricket blaring out from radio and drinking cider!! What the f**k does he think it is...summer?!?Have told him no more or else. 

Going with a private clinic within an nhs setting is a great way forward...they will accept all your nhs tests and it will mean less £ and not having to repeat tests. UCH is a wonderful hospital..

I thought this hot weather would decrease appetite but i also cannot stop eating :(


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## Briss

2 dominant folicles must be good, isn't? naturally we only have one I think. does it mean you can release two eggs? good news on the lining! I was worried, BC must be working then. it would be good to do more scans if possible to check on the lining as you progress with clomid, obviously i hope you wont need that and will get your BFP this cycle, twins would be fantastic :) 

am not doing well, had a huge chocolate desert with hot chocolate :( not sure I want to weigh myself tomorrow, I'll be trully depressed if I put all my weight back on


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## Blythe

I think it's standard with nhs clomid cycles to have only 1 x scan on first cycle only. Should be CDs 1-12 usually. So no more scans. I think we usually produce just one dominant follicle do 2 is brill for me. I hope they both pop :)

When will you get fsh result?


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## vkj73

briss,
during our orientation (back in late march) it was highly recommended to not take herbs during the clomid/iui journey.

i actually went to acupuncture today and the dr. encouraged the herbs, basically saying that my fs was/is wrong. i wasn't sure what to do, so i just didn't take them.

the first three cycles on clomid everything has been really predictable.
scan on day 10, there's been 1-2 dominant follicles. i haven't felt any side affects. maybe a little bit of night sweat, but nothing severe.

for some reason, i didn't respond to clomid this time as i have in the last cycles. the acupuncturist said this is normal, and your body starts to respond less with each cycle.

who knows?!?! i'm hoping this is it.

good luck to you and all!!! :dust:


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## Juniperjules

Briss... I'm so glad I'm not the only one kind of dreading all the baby mania when Wills & Kate have their baby.. I wish them all the happiness in the world mind you... I loved Diana, so I like her kids as well!. But I guess it's one of those situations where u look at someone else's life (of which we only see the pretty shiny parts of course- there's definitely negatives) & think 'wow she's got it all'... Totally ridiculous!!!! I know that full well. But I guess it's just seeing it live in living colour on ur big screen TV that really rubs salt in the wounds sometimes. Plus she's just so perfect looking in all her gorgeous maternity clothes!! I'm green with envy for lots of reasons.. Her baby, her clothes, her youth.. 

I know the day it's all over the news will probably be a 'low' day.. illogical & silly but true! No harm to the wee baby of course, it has a crazy life awaiting it & it's not even born yet!


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## Jazzbird

I'm with you Briss and Juniper on the Royal Baby. It's so hard not to be envious. I did read some reports that they had fertility problems and ended up having ivf. They may have been TTC since their wedding. Can you imagine the pressure to produce an heir. Of course this could all be rubbish!


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## Briss

why is it that every time I leave FS's office, I feel even more depressed, usually cry and always get the worst possible news, even worse than my expectations. I've got a splitting headache, cant even think straight anymore and do not even know what to hope for, it's devastating. after all the struggles, lifestyle changes, vitamins, TCM etc my FSH has actually gone up to all time high at 19. IVF is now closed to me as an option. FS thinks IUI wont work for us so no point trying. she agreed to monitor my FSH for the next few months and see if it gets lower in which case she might be able to refer us for IVF but she said they will repeat the test anyway (cos it takes about 4 months to go through the formalities) at which point FSH may still be high and I wont get the funding. Looks like we are stuck TTC naturally for ever. I am still very surprised that after doing acu/herbs since last October my FSH got even higher, TCM was supposed to make things better ...


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## Jazzbird

Briss - I'm so sorry to read your post. I'm also sorry acu/herbs doesn't seem to be helping. How long have you been on your new herbs again? I know herbs take a long time to kick in and I have faith that they absolutely do work to lower fsh levels. For pronounced yin deficiency, it's not enough to take herbs, you have to slow down and go to bed before 11. It takes lots of rest to build yin and a few late nights burn it up very quickly. Yin deficiency also creates more yin deficiency because a lack of yin means the body can't rest even when it's sleeping. 

Can you afford a private round of ivf? I have heard that abroad clinics are cheaper and also don't necessarily have the same constraints (ie. high fsh levels)

Don't give up. You are still relatively young. Xxx


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## Juniperjules

Oh Briss, I'm so sorry u had such a terrible time. I can only imagine how crap all of this is making you feel. 

I know it's a big step, but like Jazzbird just said- worst comes to worst could u look at going overseas to do IVF if in the end it's not offered to u in the UK? My friend just told me on the weekend that South Africa is apparently cheap for IVF. She has been looking into it herself. Maybe start investigating IVF elsewhere as a plan B? Just have all the info so that if u do get negative news in 4 mths then you at least have another option. 

Jazzbird is right, don't give up. It's not over till the fat lady sings!!


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## Jazzbird

I forgot, I was going to post this article yesterday, but never mind. I don't read the daily mail much - just the TV showbiz section!! I came across this article:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2357909/A-midlife-fertility-surge-left-Louise-holding-FOUR-babies-40s-The-little-known-phenomenon-deliver-big-surprises.html?ito=feeds-newsxml#comments

I think its important that whilst Western Medicine is wonderful in many respects, they don't have all the answers yet, especially when it comes to fertility.


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## Briss

thank you ladies for your support! I really need it today. had to leave my office and go home even before lunchtime, felt so bad, terrible headache and could not stop vomiting :( looks like I had high blood pressure (not surprisingly cos I cried all morning) which caused the headache but i did not know that and took 2 nurofens which probably made things worse and made me vomit. what an awful day! I do not think I ever left work early because I did not feel well but today I just had to. something broke inside me, I just do not the strength anymore. I guess i emotionally reacted to the bad news this morning. It's also possible that my prematurely high FSH is due to me taking things too close to my heart and being emotional like that. I feel broken, I really do not what to hope for anymore. I was so sure TCM will help with FSH, but clearly in my case it did not. I've done other things like taking vitamins including coq10 and cutting coffee but nothing seemed to have any positive effect. 19 is just too high by any account. I mean if my fsh just stayed the same I'd be disappointed but the fact that it went up and so high, I find it really hard to take after everything I've done this year and trying to lower it.


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## Blythe

Briss :hugs::hugs:

what an awful day...im so sorry.

i completely understand your upset over hearing about it rising despite your absolute dedication to taking your supplements and going for your treatments.

IVF on NHS may not be an option for you at the moment but IUI and other treatments ARE an option for you if you decide to go for it privately or self funding through NHS. I know with kings their IUI is about 450 first go and 350 thereafter [or figures near enough to these].

i cannot tell you how good i felt after speaking with the woman who runs create. she was very enthusiastic about doing IVF....she could not understand why i had not tried it before. they really have so much to offer women who have challenging stats. the ARGC, lister etc all work with girls in the same position. maybe its time to make an appt and look at doing a trial run with IUI whilst continuing to ttc naturally. dont be bullied into IVF just yet...women ARE getting pregnant naturally with challenging stats but IUI might be the boost you need.

i imagine that dr z will say that her treatments to clear your heat have not been undertaken long enough to see results...i still think TCM has much to offer you. i think you are right to return to your first lady and now you go armed with information about your condition and a better understanding of what they will be doing and whether you think its right or not. i think you had a raw deal with TCM prior to dr z and i very much wonder if those previous treatments ended up doing you more harm than good. it may take some time to reverse this but your FSH can drop right down again with the right treatment.

im so sorry briss...this is very very hard.


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## melly2

Briss said:


> why is it that every time I leave FS's office, I feel even more depressed, usually cry and always get the worst possible news, even worse than my expectations. I've got a splitting headache, cant even think straight anymore and do not even know what to hope for, it's devastating. after all the struggles, lifestyle changes, vitamins, TCM etc my FSH has actually gone up to all time high at 19. IVF is now closed to me as an option. FS thinks IUI wont work for us so no point trying. she agreed to monitor my FSH for the next few months and see if it gets lower in which case she might be able to refer us for IVF but she said they will repeat the test anyway (cos it takes about 4 months to go through the formalities) at which point FSH may still be high and I wont get the funding. Looks like we are stuck TTC naturally for ever. I am still very surprised that after doing acu/herbs since last October my FSH got even higher, TCM was supposed to make things better ...

I'm so sorry to hear this Briss. Don't get down. I do think you now have enough count to do an IUI. It's considerably cheaper than IVF. Like Blythe said, don't get bullied into it. I haven't given up the thought of doing this naturally...I'd be damned if I can't figure out how to do this myself! I know the stats are stacked up against us, but by no means does this mean impossible. It just means it will take a bit longer. Everytime I talk to my FS he keeps saying, the only way you'll get pregnant is through IVF. UGH! Drives me crazy! Of course, in the States there is no funding for IVF, so it's got to be covered out of pocket, or if you're very lucky, by insurance. So there is a side of me that thinks the doctors do this because it's more money for them, and more money they normally wouldn't easily have if health insurance covered it (which 80% of the time does not). I suppose I always think someone has an agenda, and at the end of the day, doesn't have my best interest at stake. 

At the end of the day, don't lose hope. There are a lot of pluses on your side, like the fact that your DH count has went up significantly. At this point, it's just a matter of anytime now.


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## gingmg

Hi ladies, 
Haven't posted in awhile. Briss I am sorry that your test results were not what you were hoping for. Don't loose hope. Be gentle on yourself. 

We've taken some time off, which was much needed for our marriage and my mental sanity. I don't know why I took the last one so hard, but I did. It was my rock bottom. I've managed to move away from the edge of the cliff I felt like I was standing on, and slowly life is getting back to normal. It was the best feeling in the world to get this period and not cry and feel heartbroken. I've been reading more, swimming, doing yoga, and getting myself back to the person I used to be. We will take another few cycles off, then start again with clomid and IUIs in the fall. This break has been heavenly.


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## Briss

thank you ladies, I am still in shock and so deeply depressed I do not know what to do and where to start. I am seriously doubting TCM I feel so far it worked against me. I was in a better shape before I started acu/herbs. My FSH was lower and my cycle was longer. the only thing where TCM helped is getting rid of clots but to be honest I do not care about clots that much. I still think TCM is a wonderful thing I was just unlucky with the practitioners I do not think what they prescribed helped me. My Dh says it's all my fault for taking the herbs cos I do not really know how they work and what they do and experimenting with my health like that was a very bad idea&#8230; you hear so many wonderful stories of TCm working for people and women getting pregnant but clearly my situation is just getting worse.

not sure what my temp is going jumping like that, probably my high blood pressure yesterday affected my temp, although this morning my blood pressure was normal. I woke up with my chin covered in spots!! another terrible acne break out, something is not right with my body. I think my emotions is the key to my problems, probably getting emotional all the time is what's affecting me and my FSH but I've been like that all my life, do not know how I can change my nature and suddenly become a calm person


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## Jazzbird

Hi Briss

I don't think you should listen to your DH - he doesn't sound like he's being very helpful at all. You have done the very best you can do in the situation you're in. Conventional medicine isn't giving you any options or remedies. You have therefore found practitioners who are certified and accredited in probably the most researched alternative medicine available. I don't see how trying to point the finger is at all helpful when you are already stressed out.

It is very typical of someone who does not believe in Chinese Medicine to blame it when health deteriorates, but then they never accredit it when health improves. Chinese Herbs are extremely well researched and their efficacy is well known in the East. There is a lot of resistance in the West partly due to wealthy pharmaceutical companies. 

At the very least you have tried to proactively do something about your situation and health.

I absolutely believe TCM should work for everyone given the correct diagnosis and the correct treatment. It sounds like your previous acupuncturist may have been wrong and may have delayed things. I have said it before but it takes many months of treatments to have a tangible effect - and that is with other imbalances - Yin is notoriously difficult to build. A couple of months to build yin and clear heat with a patient who is always on the go and rarely gets home before midnight - is not a realistic expectation. 

When I had yin deficient induced insomnia that went on for 4 years, it took six months of weekly acupuncture and herbs before I noticed any difference at all. I too was always on the go and would not accept the "slow down" advice from my acupuncturist (she later told me that when I first arrived, I had the tongue of a menopausal woman - and she was not wrong. I was constantly being pulled out in class to show everyone what a yin deficient tongue looked like). I did wonder whether she was just milking me for as much money as she could get! The only reason I kept going was because she was the only person who could see there was something wrong with me. Every other doctor/therapist etc. said I was in perfect health.

I also understand what its like not to be a calm person. I worry about everything and can get myself into quite a muddle most of the time. The things that have helped me deal with this are things like - going for long relaxing walks & listening to hypnotherapy CDs. They can really take you down a few gears very quickly. They are cheap and I would highly recommend downloading one and it doesn't really matter what its for, it is incredibly relaxing.

You can't change your nature, but you can change your reaction to your nature. When you start to panic, fret or fear about something - take a few deep breaths and calmly note to yourself: "Hmmm, I'm getting a bit stressed out here". Don't try to change it, just focus on what it feels like to be stressed - note any physical sensations - tightness in the chest, headaches, increased heart rate etc. Study it, investigate it. This might sound a bit nuts, but the more you sit in the emotion and investigate it, rather than try to change it or worry about it - it will start to dissipate. This is a form of meditation and it works.

Last but not least, be kind to yourself. Would you tell someone off in your situation? Would you criticise them? Would you pick through their life choices and tell them they were responsible for the situation they are in? I bet you couldn't imagine saying anything so hurtful to anyone in your situation. Be kind to you.


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## Briss

Blythe, thank you for your constant support! no idea where I would be without your words of wisdom. do you know what is the difference between doing it privately or self funding through NHS? my FS mentioned create as the only credible place to do natural cycle IVF. Do you know if I need a referral from FS to go there or if I decide to do it privately I can just turn up? I hear you on IUI, definitely something to consider cos it's not that expensive. Maybe we should just go to create and ask what our options are? DH agreed to have our IVF/IUI discussion (I have the money but I'd rather he pay cos I did my bit in trying to secure funding and it's not my fault that it is taking him years to agree while my FSH is rising) on Saturday cos we need to decide what we are going to do. I am adamant I must give birth to my first child by 38&#8230; if we continue TTC naturally the sperm must be much better but with DH still resorting to beer from time to time that's not going to happen. I have heard a lot of terrible things about the ARGC and how they achieve their excellent ratings so this is no go for me and I would not recommend it to anyone over 35. I am trying to find some positives in having high FSH and being refused IVF, maybe it's a sign from above that with my family history of ovarian cancer I really should not be going through ovarian stimulation and hard core IVf meds at all?

Melly, I completely agree that everyone has an agenda. not sure what my FS' agenda is, probably just filter through viable IVf candidates. although to give her credit, she agreed to find a way for me to come every months to her other unit to repeat FSH until I get it lowered so she could refer me for IVF. I think this is kind of her but she did warn me that IVF clinic will retest and may still refuse funding if FSH gets higher. at least it's a chance. I understand that she'd much rather refer me as a self funding IVF candidate though 

Gingmg, welcome back! I am glad you managed to take some time off and clear your relationship and that your life is getting back to normal. I need to learn from you how not cry and feel heartbroken when AF shows up. 

Jazzbird, my current TCM doc said last time that he does not see any reason why I cant get pregnant and that it's most likely my DH's sperm that's the main issue. higher FSH to me means that I am just approaching menopause faster than I should considering my age. maybe my previous doc was wrong and her herbs could have harmed me but how can I know that my current doc does not do the same? My DH was just worried about me, he was against me doing lap&dye as well (and I hate to admit he was absolutely right) he does not trust TCM practitioners in London (one of the reasons is because none of his Chinese friends are being treated by TCM practitioners in London, they prefer western medicine because they say it's hard to find a good practitioner here) but he is a very smart person (one of the smartest I met in my entire life &#8211; which is probably the reason I married him) most of the time when he says something and however strange it seems he turns out to be right in the end so I do rely on his opinions. I've been taking a lot of herbs in the last 9 months, there should really be some improvement that I can point out to, should not there? I really find it difficult to trust the practitioners. they have no responsibility if anything goes wrong because you cant really point out and say it's the herbs. I have this really strong feeling inside that I am not doing the right thing in pursuing this with Dr Zhai. her credentials are great but I really do not feel they care very much. but if I cant trust her then who can I trust? she is supposed to be at the top of her profession 

I have been taking an hour long walk almost every day at lunchtime actually, I love walking as it clears my mind and helps me with stress but clearly it did not help with FSH. 

sitting in the emotion and investigating it sounds very interesting, thanks for the advice I will try that next time I feel stressed.


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## Jazzbird

Hi Briss

I don't mean to discredit your lovely husband. Lots of highly intelligent people have an issue with Chinese Medicine down to the lack of evidence. The problem is, that the Conventional Medical gold standard seal of approval are double blind experiments which are extremely difficult to do in any contact based therapies (physiotherapy, chiropractic, acupuncture etc.) - because you cannot really take the practitioner and his influence out of the experimental conditions. Add to that that every patient, even with a similar diagnosis in Chinese Medicine will require different treatment strategies, and will have different outcomes. Moreover, when you utilise Conventional Medical classifications of disease (e.g. IBS or headaches) - Eastern Medicine has huge differentiation with all these classifications. All this means it is difficult to prove anything with acupuncture.

I completely understand your hubby's concerns - there is a lack of regulation in Chinese Medicine in UK - class A drugs were found in one high street Chinese Herbal store in UK. However, they are trying to introduce stringent regulation in UK. The single most important advice I would give to anyone looking for a herbalist or acupuncturist is to ensure acupuncturists are accredited by the British Acupuncture Council (https://www.acupuncture.org.ukand herbalists are accredited by the Register of Chinese Herbal Medicine (https://www.rchm.co.uk. You can find accredited practitioners on both websites. The Register of Chinese Herbal Medicine ensures all its members only buy from accredited suppliers - so there is quite stringent control over the quality and source of the herbs. I checked Dr Zhai, she is registered under British Acupuncture Council which means she has had approved training. I couldn't find her on the Register of Chinese Herbal Medicine (I did a quick search) but perhaps there is another practitioner at her practice that is. 

Funnily enough, doctors, physiotherapists and other Western Medical professionals do not have to have 4 years of training in acupuncture. They can train in a few days and register with another board called the British Medical Acupuncture Society. Sadly, a lot of patients prefer going to these practitioners because they are accredited by Conventional Medicine - but they do not have the same depth or level of training as an Acupuncturist who is trained and registered with British Acupuncture Council. 


I'm a great believer that you should follow your instinct & I also feel that you absolutely must a) be able to trust any practitioner dealing with you health (conventional medical or otherwise) - even more so with fertility and b) feel as though they care about you (especially with fertility). Any feelings of negativity with your practitioner is going to create more stress and more worry - so if you feel your instinct is to stop with Dr Zhai, stop.

I wish I had better training in herbs to tell you the appropriateness of what has been prescribed to you - but even if I had better training, I haven't seen you personally, so I wouldn't be in a position anyway to offer reassurance. I must admit though, with some of your symptoms, and having high FSH levels, I'm surprised Dr Zhai is confident that any infertility issues are solely down to your husband.

If you have not totally given up on TCM, there are other practitioners - but I completely understand you may feel as though you have had your fingers burned with TCM. My friend's husband went to see Ken Lloyd (he practices in Hampstead and teaches at my old college, so he is well trained and is registered under both bodies). I think his herbs cost around £30 per month and he also paid £40 to see him once a month. This is for male infertility though - it might require more visits for female infertility. And my friend's husband said he wasn't the most personable practitioner, but that suited him because he's a bloke 

From a Chinese Medical perspective high FSH levels are almost always down to Yin Deficiency - and the only thing that builds yin is deep rest. Walking might help your stress levels, but it won't build yin. Going to bed early, meditation and restful activities build yin. Going to bed late, burning the candle at both ends, looking at TVs and computer screens - all burn yin up.

Anyway, I hope I'm not seen as though I'm lecturing - I'm very passionate about Chinese Medicine as I feel it has so much to offer - especially when someone reaches a dead end with Conventional Medicine. But unlike Conventional Medicine, it is a slow, natural form of healing which requires patience & lifestyle changes from the patient.


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## Juniperjules

Briss, I'm a nurse & I work in mental health. And I can tell u from experience that stress, anxiety, low mood & depression definitely affect your physical health. Your blood pressure may have been high yesterday because you were nervous about your appointment. And your skin breaking out can definitely be a sign of acute stress/anxiety. A good many years ago I broke out in terrible acne- like nothing i'd had before. I was told by a naturopath & a doctor that it was due to high stress levels.. And I now see in my work, that mental stressors can absolutely cause physical or 'somatic' health issues. And LOTS of them. 

I'm like you Briss, I think I live always with an underlying anxiety.. If I'm sitting still ill suddenly notice that my leg is jittering or my foot is swinging, I 'doodle' on bits of paper if I have a pen in my hand, I clench & grind my teeth in my sleep.. All little tell tale signs that my mind is rarely completely at rest. And then at times of acute stress.. Well forget about it! I'm pee-ing every 15 mins, upset tummy, bloating, I often think I probably have a bit of IBS that becomes a problem when I'm anxious. And again at times of acute stress ill have no trouble falling asleep, but I can wake up at 5am feeling like I've just been punched in the stomach, suddenly wide awake & unable to shut down my mind. I'm a chronic over-thinker, an over-analyser.. I read too much into things. And it can make me mildly paranoid!! always worried that I'm not keeping everyone happy enough (ie family, friends), or that I'm not making enough effort & someone will be angry or upset. 

I mean from the outside I looked calm, composed & together. But sometimes my composed exterior is hiding an uncertain & pretty highly strung interior. Thankfully when I'm at work, I'm at my best- work brings me back to the present moment & forces me not to ruminate or get caught up in my own thoughts. 

I'm making a conscious effort right now to lower my anxiety & keep it down bcos I'm so aware that its very detrimental to ttc & can ruin your day! I'm trying to exercise to burn off cortisol levels, trying to 'not sweat the small stuff' bcos it's not helpful, & to do things that I enjoy doing.. Reading a book, listening to music, watching a TV series that I love but haven't watched in 12mths. Spending some time with girlfriends i havent seen in ages, I'm even just trying to laugh more! 

Maybe hon you should sit down & make a list of things you love to do- & start doing them. Start trying to enjoy things again. It reminds you that there is a whole world outside of your anxieties & worries. And reminds you that you CAN be happy again. 

Have you heard of mindfulness? If not google it. It's used in psychology & psychiatry to help with all of these negative thoughts, feelings & stressors. And it does wonders for many people in helping them calm their minds, stay in the present moment, & take things just one day at a time. I'm pretty sure there are apps for it too. 

I'm very emotional like you are, and I don't want to change who I am, I just don't want my emotions to control me. Mindfulness helps with this. And when ur mind is calm, your body often follows suit. 

Don't give up


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## Blythe

gingmg said:


> Hi ladies,
> Haven't posted in awhile. Briss I am sorry that your test results were not what you were hoping for. Don't loose hope. Be gentle on yourself.
> 
> We've taken some time off, which was much needed for our marriage and my mental sanity. I don't know why I took the last one so hard, but I did. It was my rock bottom. I've managed to move away from the edge of the cliff I felt like I was standing on, and slowly life is getting back to normal. It was the best feeling in the world to get this period and not cry and feel heartbroken. I've been reading more, swimming, doing yoga, and getting myself back to the person I used to be. We will take another few cycles off, then start again with clomid and IUIs in the fall. This break has been heavenly.

this is good to read :) i have been on the edge of that cliff too and its a horrible place to be. Good for you and im glad you are enjoying this break...i hope once you start again it will happen for you quickly :flower:


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## Blythe

Briss said:


> Blythe, thank you for your constant support! no idea where I would be without your words of wisdom. do you know what is the difference between doing it privately or self funding through NHS? my FS mentioned create as the only credible place to do natural cycle IVF. Do you know if I need a referral from FS to go there or if I decide to do it privately I can just turn up? I hear you on IUI, definitely something to consider cos it's not that expensive. Maybe we should just go to create and ask what our options are? DH agreed to have our IVF/IUI discussion (I have the money but I'd rather he pay cos I did my bit in trying to secure funding and it's not my fault that it is taking him years to agree while my FSH is rising) on Saturday cos we need to decide what we are going to do. I am adamant I must give birth to my first child by 38&#8230; if we continue TTC naturally the sperm must be much better but with DH still resorting to beer from time to time that's not going to happen. I have heard a lot of terrible things about the ARGC and how they achieve their excellent ratings so this is no go for me and I would not recommend it to anyone over 35. I am trying to find some positives in having high FSH and being refused IVF, maybe it's a sign from above that with my family history of ovarian cancer I really should not be going through ovarian stimulation and hard core IVf meds at all?
> 
> Melly, I completely agree that everyone has an agenda. not sure what my FS' agenda is, probably just filter through viable IVf candidates. although to give her credit, she agreed to find a way for me to come every months to her other unit to repeat FSH until I get it lowered so she could refer me for IVF. I think this is kind of her but she did warn me that IVF clinic will retest and may still refuse funding if FSH gets higher. at least it's a chance. I understand that she'd much rather refer me as a self funding IVF candidate though
> 
> Gingmg, welcome back! I am glad you managed to take some time off and clear your relationship and that your life is getting back to normal. I need to learn from you how not cry and feel heartbroken when AF shows up.
> 
> Jazzbird, my current TCM doc said last time that he does not see any reason why I cant get pregnant and that it's most likely my DH's sperm that's the main issue. higher FSH to me means that I am just approaching menopause faster than I should considering my age. maybe my previous doc was wrong and her herbs could have harmed me but how can I know that my current doc does not do the same? My DH was just worried about me, he was against me doing lap&dye as well (and I hate to admit he was absolutely right) he does not trust TCM practitioners in London (one of the reasons is because none of his Chinese friends are being treated by TCM practitioners in London, they prefer western medicine because they say it's hard to find a good practitioner here) but he is a very smart person (one of the smartest I met in my entire life &#8211; which is probably the reason I married him) most of the time when he says something and however strange it seems he turns out to be right in the end so I do rely on his opinions. I've been taking a lot of herbs in the last 9 months, there should really be some improvement that I can point out to, should not there? I really find it difficult to trust the practitioners. they have no responsibility if anything goes wrong because you cant really point out and say it's the herbs. I have this really strong feeling inside that I am not doing the right thing in pursuing this with Dr Zhai. her credentials are great but I really do not feel they care very much. but if I cant trust her then who can I trust? she is supposed to be at the top of her profession
> 
> I have been taking an hour long walk almost every day at lunchtime actually, I love walking as it clears my mind and helps me with stress but clearly it did not help with FSH.
> 
> sitting in the emotion and investigating it sounds very interesting, thanks for the advice I will try that next time I feel stressed.


on my 41st i went to my doctor with some print out from King's website with the contact details and the fact my doc had to confirm my BMI was below 35. my doc already had a referral letter on file which she used to refer me to my local fertility clinic so just printed that off and crossed out some details replacing with Kings details and a quick handwritten note confirming bmi. she then printed it out and i sent it the same day to King's clearly stating it was for self funded treatment. i also sent copies of other test results but no need to do this as within 6 weeks they sent me some forms to get the process underway.

the fees charged by King's are similar to that charged by other self funded nhs providers...fees for basic stuff:

*tests and consult*: 220
*natural cycle ivf*: 1500 [cheaper than create - in fact i brought this to Dr Nargund's attention and she did not know they did natural ivf - i have a friend who works at kings and she says the fertility specialists there are wonderful] 
icsi: 3500
ivf: 2900 
drugs: between 600 and 1500 per cycle [not too scary!]
admin fee: 25
egg freezing for over a year: 600
iui: 400 - 350 per cycle thereafter

https://www.kch.nhs.uk/service/acu/find-out-more/getting-started

babble, babble, babble.....the big difference between self funded and being referred for free treatment is that you dont have to wait...well you might but you will be put to the front of the queue. i would also imagine if you want to try IUI first then you would have a bit more say about what you want to do rather than if it was funded through your PCT.

so i think go back to doc and get a referral to the UCH or if not go direct to CREATE which requires NO referral and once you go for the consult they get going straight away on treatment. They have open days most months and a clinic in Harley street:

https://www.uclh.nhs.uk/ourservices/servicea-z/wh/gynae/repm/Pages/refer.aspx

i wish it were possible to find a TCM practitioner who really wanted to work with you/me to achieve results. like you briss i am yet to meet one i really have that relationship with...i go to my current one as its cheap but i feel fobbed off after most sessions. its a shame my old doc disappeared as he always wanted to know where i was in my cycle and seemed to change the treatment...at least that was a start!


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## Briss

Blythe, sorry about DH drinking, I am sure mine is somewhere out-there near a pub... it's so funny when we are in the middle of an argument but we still need to BD so we BD and then continue arguing :) 

I think UCH has two units one for NHS patients and the other one for private, I guess I can just turn up at their private unit. or try create. 

Kings' prices sound reasonable but UCH has very high ratings, I think IVF wise it's one of the top clinics, not sure about IUI. I think UCH also does natural cycle IVF but create seems more credible on this. 

why did they ask for bmi confirmation?

do you think self funded nhs providers are cheaper than private clinics? I have reservations in doing anything self funded as it would be difficult to get NHS funding for anything once you go self funded (I might be wrong here but that's what I've heard). 

Juniper, thanks! what do you do with low mood? I am always like that, it's so rare when I am happy because I do not have any reason to be happy and plenty of reasons to be sad. I do watch comedies (watching wedding crashers as I type, quite funny) and almost never watch any movie that does not end with a happy ending, I simply do not have any strength to see other people tragedies. 

Work does help not to stress out about my personal life but then I stress out about work stuff all day long so it works both ways really for and against me. 

I always wondered about my acne, it started within 6 months of me starting my current job so you are right it may as well be stress related rather than hormonal. 

I will definitely check out mindfulness, never heard before it sounds like meditation. 

Jazzbird, that's so great to have you here. thanks so much for explaining things! I will ask my doc on Monday again about Yin Deficiency and will try to read up on that. I do feel that my whole personality and way of life is taking up lots of Yin maybe that's why i am running out of it and getting high FSH well before my time


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## gingmg

Has anyone read the book the Conception Chronicles? It is written by three best friends all trying to get pregnant. It took awhile for all three and one ended up doing IVF. It was more about relationships, marriage, sex, and all the emotions that go along with TTC, versus information on how to increase your odds, ect.. I laughed and cried my way through the entire book. I highly recommend it.


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## Briss

gingmg, thanks! I will definitely get it, sounds really interesting


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## Blythe

It's so so hot here. Ive been earen alive by misquitoes. I watched a show yesterday about juicing and how it has changed people's lives. I'm going to retrieve my juicer from the top of my cupboards and stock up today on veg and fruit. It's easier to stick to it when the weathers like this. I'm still going to have tea/coffee in the am and soup for lunch and small snacks. 

There is quite a bit on the web about yoga poses to help with yin. I have Acu today. I'm hoping they will still keep prices down for me.


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## Briss

Blythe, let us know how acu goes. 

I love this weather! I cant even feel sad about my situation when it's so warm and sunny :) met a friend yesterday who is 39 and unfortunately her husband suggested a divorce instead of TTC, we spent the whole day walking alone Themes discussing her situation. it's quite sad really but on the other hand he was not a nice person and she is lucky to get rid of him. 

we finally had a chat with DH about IUI/natural cycle IVF and I think he is getting there. I will start booking appointments with CREATE and UCH. being a mathematician he immediately calculated our odds of conceiving with natural cycle IVF and it did not look good but I am just happy he agreed to start the process. 

Was very upset yesterday cos it was CD8 and I was still spotting!! just hate it.


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## Blythe

Back from Acu. Was trying to explain that I was about to ovulate and I had had a scan/taken clomid etc. well after 5 mins of chatting she asked when they were doing the IVF!! Her English is not great but she did do an abdominal massage post Acu and could feel my swollen ovary on the right. She suggested some intense Acu so I'm going tues evening and Friday then Sunday this week. My DH thinks I'm being taken for a ride and they are just feeding me a line. 

I am very bloated and very aware of my ovaries but I don't mind that as at least something happening. 

I don't know anymore. I feel quite detached at the moment and not at all emotional about TTC which is a relief as it was too exhausting. I hope this lasts for a couple of cycles at least. 

How long has your friend been with her husband? I imagine it would be hard to split with someone you have been with for many years. Divorce is tuff whatever bit if he was a knob she is best out. When I turned 36 I really noticed being older (not old, just not a youngster anymore) Up til that point I just felt as if I was in my mid 20s and acted like it too. I guess it's the ticking click and the big 40 looming. A point where you think you will have most things set up. I was on Martin Lewis's money saving site yesterday in the forums. One poster had his/her current aims down as 1) lose 23ils before trip to states and b) be mortgage free by 30. If only...my aims: retain own hair by 42 (cheers dhea!!), get pregnant by 45, loose 1/2 stone by end of July 13, don't reveal true feelings towards work colleagues, anytime.

IVF stats are best avoided. I was looking at them and thinking, why bother?? But create has some half decent stats and if you have, say 30% chance each time does that mean you have 90% chance with 3 goes?? As you can tell I am no mathematician.


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## Briss

Blythe, I think intense acu around O is a good thing, every little helps :) is she needling the same points? I find it always hard to communicate with them and it's not just English, they look at things differently. not being able to read FF charts makes me mad, my doc has to transfer FF chat into their handwritten chart before he can look at it. what a waste. it might be that my previous doc did not treat me correctly because of our miscommunication. 

I do not know I might be delusional but if it was not for my high FSH and low AMH I would still believe myself to be in my mid 20s, I do not feel like I am approaching 40 but I know I am. and also my grey hair and wrinkles are starting to make an appearance but that's it really no other aging symptoms, I cant believe I am entering menopause... I am feeling very low, similar to what I was two months ago when i started dieting. just hopeless. 

I like your goals! am afraid to set my goals because I feel I have no control over the things I really want. I am just happy hubby agreed to go ahead with assisted conception. next week going to be very busy at work but from Friday i will start looking into this in more detail. 

I actually feel more normal when I cant feel ovulation, but every now and then I do feel my ovaries (on the plus side I get an indication which ovary is ovulating)

My friend is a very good catholic and her husband was her only man, they have been together for about 15 years and he promised her that they would have children but then changed his mind, i think he is just going through middle age thing but that's no excuse. I am so sorry that she has to start all over at this age


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## Blythe

Briss said:


> Blythe, I think intense acu around O is a good thing, every little helps :) is she needling the same points? I find it always hard to communicate with them and it's not just English, they look at things differently. not being able to read FF charts makes me mad, my doc has to transfer FF chat into their handwritten chart before he can look at it. what a waste. it might be that my previous doc did not treat me correctly because of our miscommunication.
> 
> I do not know I might be delusional but if it was not for my high FSH and low AMH I would still believe myself to be in my mid 20s, I do not feel like I am approaching 40 but I know I am. and also my grey hair and wrinkles are starting to make an appearance but that's it really no other aging symptoms, I cant believe I am entering menopause... I am feeling very low, similar to what I was two months ago when i started dieting. just hopeless.
> 
> I like your goals! am afraid to set my goals because I feel I have no control over the things I really want. I am just happy hubby agreed to go ahead with assisted conception. next week going to be very busy at work but from Friday i will start looking into this in more detail.
> 
> I actually feel more normal when I cant feel ovulation, but every now and then I do feel my ovaries (on the plus side I get an indication which ovary is ovulating)
> 
> My friend is a very good catholic and her husband was her only man, they have been together for about 15 years and he promised her that they would have children but then changed his mind, i think he is just going through middle age thing but that's no excuse. I am so sorry that she has to start all over at this age


Starting over in your late 30s is no fun but not uncommon nowadays. It is something that has crossed my mind many times. I have thought many times that if I'd I had the financial means I would have lift my Dh ages ago and gone looking for that elusive exciting love I have always dreamed of. I am happy enough and we chat away but we do have very different views and I don't really get the horn when I look at him but the the older I get the luckier I feel to have found someone to live with and build a life with. It's quite hard to find someone to just be able to knock around with without hassle. 

Briss I'm happy that you are going to see what create has too offer you. Just so sorry you are having to go through this nightmare to get to your bfp. I think you will find great relief once you talk to these clinics and I have a great deal of hope that things may happen for you naturally in the meantime.


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## Briss

I have to say that my horn does not come from looking at my DH, but I never thought this to be a problem. I do not think I will ever meet a man of my dreams just because he probably does not exist and even if he does it's unlikely he will fancy me :) it's unfortunate that girls tend to dream up men before we even get a chance to know what men are like and real men tend to disappoint us. and it's not just men I dreamed up the whole life for myself and it is quite different from how I live now. still, as you said I also feel lucky I found a man who seems to love me and he makes me happy (at least some of the time). 

DH treated me to reflexology today, it was so painful but then the other lady joined and massaged my arms, hands and head - OMG I thought I went to heaven!! four hands massage is just too good :) my sex drive is only starting to kick in so I was not aroused but I had so much pleasure! I so wish I was rich enough to have this every day, that would definitely relax me and help with the stress :)


----------



## Briss

Had my follow up appointment at dr Zhai today, was seen by a different practitioner this time. 

FSH: she was not particularly worried about my high FSH and said it's just a bad cycle and could happen to a 20 year old. since there is almost a year difference from my previous FSh she did not think this was conclusive of anything, although I did tell het that it was conclusive enough for my FS to refuse IVF. She does not think I am menopausal but more likely my lifestyle (not going to bed before 11 pm) etc are affecting my FSH levels. I really hope so but then I do look younger than my age which might confuse people. I always thought this was evidence that I can have children later in life but now I know better, no matter what's on the outside it's the aging of the ovaries that matters. )

she said I still have heat but this time she could also see some dampness, both relate to liver q stagnation. I am to drink no alcohol whatsoever cos it has heat and damp (here goes my Pimms). I also have Yin deficiency but again it's related to heat. she thinks the main thing is to clear excess heat and this should balance Yin but I also get herbs for improving Yin. She said that by just increasing Yin without clearing heat we wont achieve much because heat seems to be the main reason for Yin deficiency (and possibly early ovulation) because heat reduces yin. 

she did not say anything about my spotting, did not seem bothered at all. 

am going back to raw herbs, am not happy about cooking but really tired of forcing myself to drink the nasty sachets, just hope these ones will taste more tolerable. I will have the same raw herbs we started with i.e. chaihu, danggui, gancao, mudanpi, shanzhizi, xiakucao plus some new ones: 

baishaoyao
baizhu
bohe
fuling
tu fu ling

had to carry two huge bags of herbs today, will check them out when I get home. have not checked what the new herbs are for yet. 

Acu was great, so relaxing! had the usual REN points and points on my legs but no Zigongs (very pleased about that). paid a fortune as usual but somehow I am feeling a little more positive so I will see how the raw herbs go and then decide. it's probably because her explanation made sense to me

Asked her about shengji ngguben wan for DH, she said the formula looked good and should improve sperm quality but for my DH it needs to be modified as he also has excess heat. Finally managed to nag my DH to do blood test so as soon we get the results I will ask for the prescription for his herbs. 

Got my peak today, and poor DH made every effort to BD but TMI again as last cycle it did not smell like sperm usualy does, I am getting slightly concerned about that. I feel like all our BD is for nothing cos he does not really enjoy it, he said something like let's do it now so we get it over and done with and I can be free&#8230;. I think the fact that he is not that aroused is affecting the sperm. My own sex drive is also quite moderate this cycle and no EWCM yet. we scheduled another BD session on Wednesday. 

The Chinese lady I went to for reflexology yesterday said that we should BD on Cd 1 and then on 16/17 in 28 day cycle. I am not sure how she arrived at these numbers but she seemed very sure. 

I am going to concentrate on work next few days cos things are just getting out of hands, I cant be bothered to be honest but things are reaching a point where cracks are starting to appear in my performance which is not great.


----------



## Jazzbird

Hi Briss

Your acupuncturist sounds like she knows what she is doing. Im with you on the high FSH - I understand what she's saying about it being a freak cycle, but she needs to appreciate that it means the difference between IVF or no IVF. 

I'm glad you asked her lots of questions - I think the more questions you ask, the more reassurance you will feel that she is on the right track. The raw herbs are very potent (more so than the powder, which is more potent than tea pills), so hopefully this will eventually start to clear the heat in your body. It will take time.

I had my acupuncture apptmt too today. Lots of needles on the back and Ren points and then some in my feet to promote ovulation. I'm CD 12, but don't ovulate usually until at least CD16/17 or even CD22 (last month). My cycle is irregular and tends to be very long (evidence of both kidney yin and kidney yang deficiency). He did comment that my hair looks nice - I said thank you, then realised he was alluding to the fact that thick hair and lack of grey is a sign of good kidney health. I'm not so sure.

Do you think the smell is down to the hot weather? I don't know about anyone else but this heat is messing up my BBT! I've never had such an erratic cycle. I can only imagine its not great for sperm. 

I have wondered too if either of you are not really into BD whether that affects your chances. I think it probably affects a woman more so with regards to lubrication, but you can use pre-seed or another sperm friendly lubricant to combat the effects.

This cycle is not looking good for us, hubby just came out of a sinus operation and is not even up to sitting let alone BD! 

I don't think most women get the horn from their OH. Combination of having the same meal every day/week for years on end and the fact that women are usually attracted to bad boys and never end up marrying them.


----------



## smurfy

Briss said:


> Blythe, let us know how acu goes.
> 
> I love this weather! I cant even feel sad about my situation when it's so warm and sunny :) met a friend yesterday who is 39 and unfortunately her husband suggested a divorce instead of TTC, we spent the whole day walking alone Themes discussing her situation. it's quite sad really but on the other hand he was not a nice person and she is lucky to get rid of him.
> 
> we finally had a chat with DH about IUI/natural cycle IVF and I think he is getting there. I will start booking appointments with CREATE and UCH. being a mathematician he immediately calculated our odds of conceiving with natural cycle IVF and it did not look good but I am just happy he agreed to start the process.
> 
> Was very upset yesterday cos it was CD8 and I was still spotting!! just hate it.

Your massage sounded amassing by the way. What is CREATE and UCH? i started my period last week so that was the last offical cycle before we go and see FS in 3 weeks, my husband due to sperm test again on Thursday but I think we will definetly be going down the IVF route as he laid out to us back in March. Then it will be all the difficult decisions about where you go etc? so I was thinking CREATE/UCH are places that can help with that but dont know?

keep going naturally as long as you can I wont give up until we actually start IVF, mentally I am ready now


----------



## Blythe

Briss said:


> Had my follow up appointment at dr Zhai today, was seen by a different practitioner this time.
> 
> FSH: she was not particularly worried about my high FSH and said it's just a bad cycle and could happen to a 20 year old. since there is almost a year difference from my previous FSh she did not think this was conclusive of anything, although I did tell het that it was conclusive enough for my FS to refuse IVF. She does not think I am menopausal but more likely my lifestyle (not going to bed before 11 pm) etc are affecting my FSH levels. I really hope so but then I do look younger than my age which might confuse people. I always thought this was evidence that I can have children later in life but now I know better, no matter what's on the outside it's the aging of the ovaries that matters. )
> 
> she said I still have heat but this time she could also see some dampness, both relate to liver q stagnation. I am to drink no alcohol whatsoever cos it has heat and damp (here goes my Pimms). I also have Yin deficiency but again it's related to heat. she thinks the main thing is to clear excess heat and this should balance Yin but I also get herbs for improving Yin. She said that by just increasing Yin without clearing heat we wont achieve much because heat seems to be the main reason for Yin deficiency (and possibly early ovulation) because heat reduces yin.
> 
> she did not say anything about my spotting, did not seem bothered at all.
> 
> am going back to raw herbs, am not happy about cooking but really tired of forcing myself to drink the nasty sachets, just hope these ones will taste more tolerable. I will have the same raw herbs we started with i.e. chaihu, danggui, gancao, mudanpi, shanzhizi, xiakucao plus some new ones:
> 
> baishaoyao
> baizhu
> bohe
> fuling
> tu fu ling
> 
> had to carry two huge bags of herbs today, will check them out when I get home. have not checked what the new herbs are for yet.
> 
> Acu was great, so relaxing! had the usual REN points and points on my legs but no Zigongs (very pleased about that). paid a fortune as usual but somehow I am feeling a little more positive so I will see how the raw herbs go and then decide. it's probably because her explanation made sense to me
> 
> Asked her about shengji ngguben wan for DH, she said the formula looked good and should improve sperm quality but for my DH it needs to be modified as he also has excess heat. Finally managed to nag my DH to do blood test so as soon we get the results I will ask for the prescription for his herbs.
> 
> Got my peak today, and poor DH made every effort to BD but TMI again as last cycle it did not smell like sperm usualy does, I am getting slightly concerned about that. I feel like all our BD is for nothing cos he does not really enjoy it, he said something like let's do it now so we get it over and done with and I can be free. I think the fact that he is not that aroused is affecting the sperm. My own sex drive is also quite moderate this cycle and no EWCM yet. we scheduled another BD session on Wednesday.
> 
> The Chinese lady I went to for reflexology yesterday said that we should BD on Cd 1 and then on 16/17 in 28 day cycle. I am not sure how she arrived at these numbers but she seemed very sure.
> 
> I am going to concentrate on work next few days cos things are just getting out of hands, I cant be bothered to be honest but things are reaching a point where cracks are starting to appear in my performance which is not great.

Hi Briss

im glad you are sticking with them and i think its good they have put you back on the more potent herbs...hopefully they can help dispel that remaining heat and get you ready for pregnancy. its great that your DH is going to have the blood test...good for him. He sounds like a very good husband :) particularly with regard to the massage...that does sound absolutely wonderful...4 hands...heavenly!!

i just saw this on YIN and thought of you :)...nothing you don't already know but useful to have it in one place. 

https://www.weebly.com/uploads/5/0/9/5/5095489/nutrition_for_kidney_yin.pdf


if i BD'd on days 16/17 on my 28 day cycles then i would miss ovation...not the greatest advice and i haven't BD'd on first day of cycle for years....maybe this is where i am going wrong.


----------



## Blythe

Jazzbird said:


> Hi Briss
> 
> Your acupuncturist sounds like she knows what she is doing. Im with you on the high FSH - I understand what she's saying about it being a freak cycle, but she needs to appreciate that it means the difference between IVF or no IVF.
> 
> I'm glad you asked her lots of questions - I think the more questions you ask, the more reassurance you will feel that she is on the right track. The raw herbs are very potent (more so than the powder, which is more potent than tea pills), so hopefully this will eventually start to clear the heat in your body. It will take time.
> 
> I had my acupuncture apptmt too today. Lots of needles on the back and Ren points and then some in my feet to promote ovulation. I'm CD 12, but don't ovulate usually until at least CD16/17 or even CD22 (last month). My cycle is irregular and tends to be very long (evidence of both kidney yin and kidney yang deficiency). He did comment that my hair looks nice - I said thank you, then realised he was alluding to the fact that thick hair and lack of grey is a sign of good kidney health. I'm not so sure.
> 
> Do you think the smell is down to the hot weather? I don't know about anyone else but this heat is messing up my BBT! I've never had such an erratic cycle. I can only imagine its not great for sperm.
> 
> I have wondered too if either of you are not really into BD whether that affects your chances. I think it probably affects a woman more so with regards to lubrication, but you can use pre-seed or another sperm friendly lubricant to combat the effects.
> 
> This cycle is not looking good for us, hubby just came out of a sinus operation and is not even up to sitting let alone BD!
> 
> I don't think most women get the horn from their OH. Combination of having the same meal every day/week for years on end and the fact that women are usually attracted to bad boys and never end up marrying them.


Hi Jazzbird

i wonder why you ovulated a little later last cycle...is this uncommon for you?

i use pressed/conceive plus and it will be particularly helpful this cycle as clomid has had a noticeable on CM. i have been trying some EPO but does not seem to have helped.

im just about to get my +opk so working out when to get the BDing in....just before sleeping or first thing in the morning...DH prefers morning but i just dont have time to put pillows under bum and all that palaver...


i will be having acu 4 times within 7 days...a new record for me and hoping it will give me the extra boost, along with the clomid that i need to get a result.

are you still taking the same 3 x teas pills or have you changed them? I am taking the same pre ovulation pills as you and will switch to the KI yang ones once i get me temp rise and confirmed ovulation. Having said that you are right as this heat is really making it difficult to work out if my temps are accurate or not.


----------



## Breaking Dawn

Hello Ladies..

Back from my mini vacation...and wow so many pages I had to catch up on.

So sorry to read how frustrating ttc can be. 

I read a few questions about clomid. I took clomid for 3 cycles and it ended up thinning my lining... which is a common side effect. Since then I have switched to femera/letrozole.

Clomid shoudl be taken at night to avoid hot flashes and headaches.

AFM... i am on CD 7 of IUI #4. i was not able to see my Dr before AF ended so I didn't want to waste this cycle...so i see Dr next week to discuss next steps as the plan was always 3 iuis. then what's next. ...?

I feel very lucky that DH and I are on the same page with TTC. He is fully supportive and comes to any appt. .altho I let him know he doesn't have to as its hard to take time off. 

As for IVF...due to this being our 4th IUI. I believe my FS will advise that we move to IVF. But I don't know if this is right for us.

My TCM dr who is a gyno and fertility specialist says that after the 3 months with her my hormones have improved and she feels my body is ready for pregnancy...and like any healthy person it's just a matter of time.

Also I have had a bfp once so I know ow we can get pregnant with just good old fashioned sex.


----------



## vkj73

Breaking Dawn said:


> Hello Ladies..
> 
> Back from my mini vacation...and wow so many pages I had to catch up on.
> 
> So sorry to read how frustrating ttc can be.
> 
> I read a few questions about clomid. I took clomid for 3 cycles and it ended up thinning my lining... which is a common side effect. Since then I have switched to femera/letrozole.
> 
> Clomid shoudl be taken at night to avoid hot flashes and headaches.
> 
> AFM... i am on CD 7 of IUI #4. i was not able to see my Dr before AF ended so I didn't want to waste this cycle...so i see Dr next week to discuss next steps as the plan was always 3 iuis. then what's next. ...?
> 
> I feel very lucky that DH and I are on the same page with TTC. He is fully supportive and comes to any appt. .altho I let him know he doesn't have to as its hard to take time off.
> 
> *As for IVF...due to this being our 4th IUI. I believe my FS will advise that we move to IVF. But I don't know if this is right for us.*
> 
> My TCM dr who is a gyno and fertility specialist says that after the 3 months with her my hormones have improved and she feels my body is ready for pregnancy...and like any healthy person it's just a matter of time.
> 
> Also I have had a bfp once so I know ow we can get pregnant with just good old fashioned sex.

i could have written this line. we too are having our 4th iui tomorrow.
8.12 is our "revisit" with the fs. if this round doesn't work, i'm sure he's going to want us to up our game. as you said, "i don't know if it's right for us".

good luck to you. i'll be following:hugs:


----------



## Blythe

vkj73 - i hope everything goes well tomorrow and that this will be the one that does the trick :flower:

Breaking Dawn - thanks for the info on clomid. i have had a few funny side effects and am experiencing lots of bloating at the moment. I had my positive opk last night so expecting to ovulate any time...im waiting for the pains that i keep reading about from women who have take clomid!! Its so hot in london at the moment that its hardly worth temping so im hoping the pains will provide a clear indication of ovulation :)

i have been wondering today if this intense heat we are experiencing in the UK will effect sperm. my DH has been walking home from work and ive been thinking of his privates [its not something i often do!] and not sure how those little sperm survive this heat!

just had another acu appt having had my last one just 2 days ago...she asked me when my period was. I thought hang on you asked me that last time!! honestly, anyhow she then said i should relax and then started talking about this couple she knew that had been trying for ages then went on holiday and relaxed and poooof...pregnant. Now then i have heard about this mythical couple from a few people now and im not interested in hearing anymore about them. if she tells me too relax again i will remove the needles from between my eyes and jab her with it!


----------



## vkj73

Blythe said:


> vkj73 - i hope everything goes well tomorrow and that this will be the one that does the trick :flower:
> 
> Breaking Dawn - thanks for the info on clomid. i have had a few funny side effects and am experiencing lots of bloating at the moment. I had my positive opk last night so expecting to ovulate any time...im waiting for the pains that i keep reading about from women who have take clomid!! Its so hot in london at the moment that its hardly worth temping so im hoping the pains will provide a clear indication of ovulation :)
> 
> i have been wondering today if this intense heat we are experiencing in the UK will effect sperm. my DH has been walking home from work and ive been thinking of his privates [its not something i often do!] and not sure how those little sperm survive this heat!
> 
> just had another acu appt having had my last one just 2 days ago...she asked me when my period was. I thought hang on you asked me that last time!! honestly, anyhow she then said i should relax and then started talking about this couple she knew that had been trying for ages then went on holiday and relaxed and poooof...pregnant. Now then i have heard about this mythical couple from a few people now and im not interested in hearing anymore about them. if she tells me too relax again i will remove the needles from between my eyes and jab her with it!

thank you blythe for the thoughtful reply.:flower:
don't worry too much about the heat.
a couple of weeks ago my husband (and i) were very sick. fevers and everything.
his sc today, post wash was 9 million (5-10 million is good she said).

so even with a fever, the little guys can survive:thumbup:


----------



## Jazzbird

Blythe said:


> Jazzbird said:
> 
> 
> Hi Jazzbird
> 
> i wonder why you ovulated a little later last cycle...is this uncommon for you?
> 
> i use pressed/conceive plus and it will be particularly helpful this cycle as clomid has had a noticeable on CM. i have been trying some EPO but does not seem to have helped.
> 
> im just about to get my +opk so working out when to get the BDing in....just before sleeping or first thing in the morning...DH prefers morning but i just dont have time to put pillows under bum and all that palaver...
> 
> 
> i will be having acu 4 times within 7 days...a new record for me and hoping it will give me the extra boost, along with the clomid that i need to get a result.
> 
> are you still taking the same 3 x teas pills or have you changed them? I am taking the same pre ovulation pills as you and will switch to the KI yang ones once i get me temp rise and confirmed ovulation. Having said that you are right as this heat is really making it difficult to work out if my temps are accurate or not.
> 
> Hi Blythe
> 
> My cycle length varies from about 29 days to 35. Normally they are about 31 days but every 3 months or so it goes to 35. I think I've always had a tendency towards long cycle length.
> 
> I am still taking the same tea pills. I've been taking them 4 months now.
> 
> Also your temps might be affected by clomid as it is a heating drug.Click to expand...


----------



## Jazzbird

Blythe said:


> vkj73 - i hope everything goes well tomorrow and that this will be the one that does the trick :flower:
> 
> 
> just had another acu appt having had my last one just 2 days ago...she asked me when my period was.

How irritating. They should be really clued up on your cycle. I'm always grateful mine greets me with - "so, cycle day 12" (or whatever).


----------



## Blythe

Jazzbird said:


> Blythe said:
> 
> 
> vkj73 - i hope everything goes well tomorrow and that this will be the one that does the trick :flower:
> 
> 
> just had another acu appt having had my last one just 2 days ago...she asked me when my period was.
> 
> How irritating. They should be really clued up on your cycle. I'm always grateful mine greets me with - "so, cycle day 12" (or whatever).Click to expand...

it is irritating particularly as on sunday she had suggested i should see her as much as possible during the next few days as i am due to ovulate and she wanted to do some intense work...so when she comes into the treatment room asking me when i had my last period i was dumbfounded! its great that you have a practitioner who knows about your treatment plan and stays on top of things. my one is a busy practice with lots of massage treatments going which seem to be their main source of trade. they give the paperwork a quick glance before treatment and rarely change the points she needles. 

i attach an extract from a book with suggested points for fertility....its a really 70s book with suggested points for ailments so very much like the treatments given by western trained physiotherapist who has done a bit of extra needle training. Still i get these same points needled each week minus the 2 points above belly button, chest point, shoulder point - i also get needle between eyes.

im still waiting for temp rise...fingers crossed tomorrow.


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## Breaking Dawn

Vkj...thanks for your reply. it's so nice to know that I'm not alone! Goodluck on your IUI I hope it's lucky #4 brings you a bfp.
I'm going in for IUI this wknd.. keep me posted during the tww!

Blythe...when you said the following in your post I LITERALLY choked on my cup of tea..
LMAO thanks for the laugh!

"Now then i have heard about this mythical couple from a few people now and im not interested in hearing anymore about them. if she tells me too relax again i will remove the needles from between my eyes and jab her with it!"

Oh also...like Vkj said don't worry about sweaty DH and swimmers. the reason why the boys hang outside of the body is bc they can keep cool...lol. funny but true!

Jazzbird...how are you doing? my tcm Dr also knows my cycle. 

I'm going in today and she'll know that's I'm CD9 today.


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## Jazzbird

Blythe - I can't see the extract, how do I find it?


----------



## Briss

smurfy said:


> Briss said:
> 
> 
> Blythe, let us know how acu goes.
> 
> I love this weather! I cant even feel sad about my situation when it's so warm and sunny :) met a friend yesterday who is 39 and unfortunately her husband suggested a divorce instead of TTC, we spent the whole day walking alone Themes discussing her situation. it's quite sad really but on the other hand he was not a nice person and she is lucky to get rid of him.
> 
> we finally had a chat with DH about IUI/natural cycle IVF and I think he is getting there. I will start booking appointments with CREATE and UCH. being a mathematician he immediately calculated our odds of conceiving with natural cycle IVF and it did not look good but I am just happy he agreed to start the process.
> 
> Was very upset yesterday cos it was CD8 and I was still spotting!! just hate it.
> 
> Your massage sounded amassing by the way. What is CREATE and UCH? i started my period last week so that was the last offical cycle before we go and see FS in 3 weeks, my husband due to sperm test again on Thursday but I think we will definetly be going down the IVF route as he laid out to us back in March. Then it will be all the difficult decisions about where you go etc? so I was thinking CREATE/UCH are places that can help with that but dont know?
> 
> keep going naturally as long as you can I wont give up until we actually start IVF, mentally I am ready nowClick to expand...

Smurfy, CREATE and UCH are two london clinics. I am thinking about these two because they both do natural cycle IVF and have good ratings and reviews.

https://www.createhealth.org/
https://www.uclh.nhs.uk/OURSERVICES...EPM/Pages/Assistedreproductivetreatments.aspx

there are lots of discussions on FF:
https://www.fertilityfriends.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=287904.0
https://www.fertilityfriends.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=240802.980


----------



## Breaking Dawn

Briss what is a natural cycle IVF??


I had CD9 acu appt today....she needled the following points:
on top of head - in between eyes - under lower lip - inner right wrist - inner ankles - top of right foot - in between breasts - above belly button - below belly button - a few around uterus - a couple along ovaries.

it was so relaxing I feel asleep!


----------



## paster234

Has anyone tried accupuncture and or herbs or known anyone that has and then got pregnant? Just going for my second session tomorrow night and really hoping it helps! Also taking disgusting tasting herbs twice a day. So far I've noticed improvement to my digestion and as I'm now at the midway point yesterday I had LOTS of EWCM.


----------



## Briss

Breaking dawn, natural cycle IVF is like normal IVf but without the drugs, so no ovarian stimulation and as a result there will be only one naturally produced egg available for fertilisation.


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## Blythe

Jazzbird said:


> Blythe - I can't see the extract, how do I find it?

hopefully it will be here now
 



Attached Files:







Scan 9.jpg
File size: 46.4 KB
Views: 6


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## Blythe

Briss - how's it going? Are you getting in top of things at work? I remember you said you were going to focus on that. Anyhow, hope you are ok :flower:

I'm only a day behind you this cycle. Are you taking your new herbs?


----------



## Briss

Blythe, look at your chart, really nice temp rise. 

I do not have much hope for this cycle, hubby was drinking a lot and his sperm did not look right at all, but then again two weeks from now I will still be in pieces. 

Had a really bad week at work, am being stretch between 3 deals and really cant be bothered anymore, it's just too much! had to push a little at work cos things were just getting out of hands. I am trying to delegate my workload to others as much as possible but it just means I lose a bit of control of what's going on. on top of that was made to do several presentations with no time to prepare!! hate public speaking as it is but when I cant even prepare and not sure what I am talking about it's just way too stressful. it worked out in the end so am very pleased with myself today. 

had lunch with former colleagues with children and had to share my TTC misery cos their comments about children are just too much. they both got pregnant on their second month of trying so their advice was just painful&#8230; 

am reading the NHS guideline on fertility &#8211; https://www.nice.org.uk/nicemedia/live/14078/62769/62769.pdf - so much controversial info e.g. coffee/alcohol consumption 

I just finished my previous herbs so tonight am turning into a witch and start cooking my weird looking raw herbs! 

how's your juicing? I think I will do some juicing this weekend as well. hate my juicer though I think I lose half of good stuff cos it does not do its job properly 

did you watch the apprentice? love the show and so happy Leigh won. do you think she had her face done? she is so beautiful but I cant help thinking she is not naturally so as she does not look like her parents


----------



## Briss

That's probably why I did not think self funded IVf was a good idea - In women aged under 40 years any previous full IVF cycle, whether self- or NHS-funded, should count towards the total of 3 full cycles that should be offered by the NHS;

also - Do not offer women 'natural cycle' IVF treatment. Do not use growth hormone or dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA) as adjuvant treatment in IVF protocols.


----------



## Blythe

Briss said:


> Blythe, look at your chart, really nice temp rise.
> 
> I do not have much hope for this cycle, hubby was drinking a lot and his sperm did not look right at all, but then again two weeks from now I will still be in pieces.
> 
> Had a really bad week at work, am being stretch between 3 deals and really cant be bothered anymore, it's just too much! had to push a little at work cos things were just getting out of hands. I am trying to delegate my workload to others as much as possible but it just means I lose a bit of control of what's going on. on top of that was made to do several presentations with no time to prepare!! hate public speaking as it is but when I cant even prepare and not sure what I am talking about it's just way too stressful. it worked out in the end so am very pleased with myself today.
> 
> had lunch with former colleagues with children and had to share my TTC misery cos their comments about children are just too much. they both got pregnant on their second month of trying so their advice was just painful
> 
> am reading the NHS guideline on fertility  https://www.nice.org.uk/nicemedia/live/14078/62769/62769.pdf - so much controversial info e.g. coffee/alcohol consumption
> 
> I just finished my previous herbs so tonight am turning into a witch and start cooking my weird looking raw herbs!
> 
> how's your juicing? I think I will do some juicing this weekend as well. hate my juicer though I think I lose half of good stuff cos it does not do its job properly
> 
> did you watch the apprentice? love the show and so happy Leigh won. do you think she had her face done? she is so beautiful but I cant help thinking she is not naturally so as she does not look like her parents

thanks for linking the NICE recommendations - i have not gone through these before in any detail but interesting reading although i have only just skimmed it! i will read properly later.

so on page 32/1.10.5.3 - people should be informed that maternal caffeine consumption has adverse effects on the success rate of assisted repro procedures....

but i cannot make sense on having this statement in the same document as the following statement [p.15/1.2.5.1 - people who are concerned about their fertility should be informed that there is no consistent evidence of an association between consumption of caffeinated beverages and fertility problems.....Come on NICE - no wonder different advice meted out by different med practitioners!!!!

if i went with IVF privately i would not be inclined to tell your fertility specialist if it has an effect on possibility of getting NHS funded treatment.

its my intention to juice this weekend and i really do want to but im craving crisps big time at the moment so will struggle to leave them to one side!

i love the apprentice and had no clue which one he was going to choose. there is already a backlash against her from specialists in the field who don't think she has the background to present herself as a specialist and others who going on about her turning her back on NHS, that it costs 250k to train docs etc etc

i have to say she is pretty but those lips....no no no she has defo had something done there or around that area and shes too young to look the way she does. THAT HAIR when she went on the aftershow...and THAT DRESS!!! crickey she looked like an throwback from the 80s and not in a good way at all not that there are any good looks from the 80s.

hey well done with the presentations..i can sympathise and get in a terrible state before them. It all sounds very stressful at work for you...i hope these new herbs help out and manage to bring things into balance. its a difficult situation because i imagine it would be difficult to cut down work without it adversely affecting your career prospects. You just must try and fit in things around the edges that help keep you relaxed...some nice massages when you can and those lunchtime walks sound like a must!

i am off to acu soon and then i will come back and take a further look at the NICE guidelines.


----------



## Breaking Dawn

How is everyone doing?

I am on cd11 had a follie scan this morning...have a follie at 21mm and I have acu tonight. 

If my bloodwork from this morning shows strong surge then will have an IUI tmrw. If not then another scan and b/w tomorrow.

What is that picture with the lady and man... i get most of those points needled...the ones on the lady.


----------



## Blythe

Breaking Dawn said:


> How is everyone doing?
> 
> I am on cd11 had a follie scan this morning...have a follie at 21mm and I have acu tonight.
> 
> If my bloodwork from this morning shows strong surge then will have an IUI tmrw. If not then another scan and b/w tomorrow.
> 
> What is that picture with the lady and man... i get most of those points needled...the ones on the lady.

Great news about that follie. Are you opking too or just using blood test as guide? How many mm before they think it will pop?

The pic is from a 70s Acu book I brought from local second hand shop but I included it here as it shows pretty much which points I get needled most sessions


----------



## Blythe

Briss said:


> That's probably why I did not think self funded IVf was a good idea - In women aged under 40 years any previous full IVF cycle, whether self- or NHS-funded, should count towards the total of 3 full cycles that should be offered by the NHS;
> 
> also - Do not offer women 'natural cycle' IVF treatment. Do not use growth hormone or dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA) as adjuvant treatment in IVF protocols.

The advice re dhea does not surprise me....it's a banned hormone in this country and expensive. I have to say I feel better not taking it and my hair has stopped falling out and my skin is looking great. I hope any good effects it had stay around for a while. I may try it again ahead of IVF but will see how next couple of months go.


----------



## Breaking Dawn

How is everyone doing?

I an on cd11 had a follie scan this morning. Have a follie at 21mm and I have acu tonight. 

If my bloodwork from this morning shows strong surge then will have an IUI tmrw. If not then another scan and b/w tomorrow.


----------



## Jazzbird

Hi Breaking ... hope you get your surge, fingers crossed for you.

I'm not doing so well, hubby is in hospital with complications following sinus surgery. He's very ill with debilitating dizziness. Very stressful.

Helping me put TTC into perspective. I just want him home and healthy. He may have labyrinthitis.

Hope everyone is doing ok.

XXX


----------



## vkj73

paster234 said:


> Has anyone tried accupuncture and or herbs or known anyone that has and then got pregnant? Just going for my second session tomorrow night and really hoping it helps! Also taking disgusting tasting herbs twice a day. So far I've noticed improvement to my digestion and as I'm now at the midway point yesterday I had LOTS of EWCM.


I believe acupuncture, herbs, change in diet and dance/yoga greatly helped in conceiving our dd.
Good luck to you.:thumbup:

And thank you to those who checked in and sent well wishes!
:hugs:


----------



## vkj73

Btw, dh's sc was good, 9 mil (5-10 is what they want).
So despite being sick with a fever, the "guys" were ok.
So now I'm 3dpiui.

Good luck to all!:thumbup:


----------



## Breaking Dawn

Thanks ladies...

LH surge today so I'm doing IUI tomorrow and Sunday...hope DH has good count post wash!

VKJ,,,gooooodlcuk Hun...hope is is it for you!!!


----------



## Blythe

Jazzbird said:


> Hi Breaking ... hope you get your surge, fingers crossed for you.
> 
> I'm not doing so well, hubby is in hospital with complications following sinus surgery. He's very ill with debilitating dizziness. Very stressful.
> 
> Helping me put TTC into perspective. I just want him home and healthy. He may have labyrinthitis.
> 
> Hope everyone is doing ok.
> 
> XXX

Jazzbird - im very sorry to hear about your DH. i have just been looking at the symptoms of labyrinthitis and it sounds horrible...:(

i hope that the medication kicks in soon and he can leave hospital..what a worry for you. take care:flower:


----------



## Blythe

vkj73 said:


> Btw, dh's sc was good, 9 mil (5-10 is what they want).
> So despite being sick with a fever, the "guys" were ok.
> So now I'm 3dpiui.
> 
> Good luck to all!:thumbup:

thats great about his sc...:) both you, briss and myself are around the same point now in our cycle...lets hope its a good one for us all :)


----------



## Breaking Dawn

Hi ladies...I'm going to be joining you in the tww pretty soon.

I'm at my IUI appt.


----------



## Blythe

Breaking Dawn said:


> Hi ladies...I'm going to be joining you in the tww pretty soon.
> 
> I'm at my IUI appt.

Hope everything goes smoothly:flower:


----------



## Juniperjules

Jazzbird.. Sorry ur having a rough time. Hope ur hubby makes a speedy recovery x


----------



## Juniperjules

Breaking Dawn said:


> Hi ladies...I'm going to be joining you in the tww pretty soon.
> 
> I'm at my IUI appt.

Oooooh.... Good luck Breaking Dawn!!! Hope it went well!


----------



## Breaking Dawn

Thanks everyone...we had 30m swimmers with 90% motility! back again for another IUI tomorrow..as my clinic does back2back IUIs.

Jazzbird....sorry to hear about dh...hope he recovers quickly.


----------



## Briss

Jazzbird - i'm so very sorry to hear about your DH. I wish him speedy recovery

VKJ and breaking down, best of luck with your IUIs. lots and lots of baby dust.

afm, very sad day, I dragged my DH to CREATE for an open day this morning and actually learn a lot, some things are really scary. After that we had one to one and when I explained our situation and my numbers the doc said she does not have good news for us unfortunately as it does look like the beginning of menopause and I cant waste any time at all if i want to use my eggs. she would not even offer us mild stimulation because I have not enough eggs for that :( my only chance is natural IVF. I cried and cried and cried all the way back home. we finally made a decision that natural TTC is over for us we will try to start IVF asap. I booked my scan and appointment for next week. they will look into blood flow to my reproductive organs which is an indication of their condition.

I cant understand why my menopause would start so early?? I do not know when my mum had hers because she had her uterus removed in her late 30s but my grannie had hers at 57.

she also said high FSH/low AMH is not just a sign of decreasing egg quantity but also their poor quality :( 

now the scary stuff, I had no idea you can die from IVF! apparently there is some confidential statistic on the matter, every week smb gets into hospital after IVF and hyper stimulation and occasionally ends up in intensive care, I heard about that from FF forum but people actually losing their lives to IVF!!! this is the whole different level. also no one talks about varies illnesses women get in 10-15 years following the stimulation which are linked to IVF. and women who got pregnant via traditional IVF develop complications during pregnancy and occasionally die. I am shocked.

we had a very active group of people attending the open day and I suspect quite a few ladies from B&B as everyone was pretty clued up about stuff. there were questions about DHEA and the doc categorically said whoever is taking it should stop because the side effects can be quite severe and benefits have not been proved at all and reported positive effects could well be accidental and not due to DHEA. 

I asked about TCM and unfortunately the doc said no herbs during IVF, she does not mind acu as it does not really have any effect on anything but herbs can be quite potent and she noticed that often they make women develop additional follicles which turn out to be empty! so for their purposes this is not good. 

re IUI, finally smb explained properly why IUIs are not recommended to us. apparently, IUIs are not much different from natural TTC and nowadays are mainly used in connection with donor sperm and same sex couples and in cases of poor sperm motility (motility is the only good thing in my DH's sperm)

most of the time the doc talked about the dangers of traditional IVF with ovarian stimulation but most of it we know already. 

one more new thing I leant today is a possibility of collecting immature eggs and then egg maturation in a lad. also a possibility to increase chances

very depressing day for me, it does look like I simply wasted last couple of years on vitamins/ lifestyle changes/ TCM which did not really improve anything while my ovaries keep aging at a scary pace...


----------



## Briss

blythe, we talked to this lady at CREATE have you met her? https://www.createhealth.org/medicalteam/professor-geeta-nargund

She pioneered the use of follicular Doppler in assessing &#8220;Egg quality&#8221; and apparently that's what I am having next week. they said it does not matter which CD I am on although strange cos after O there should not be any follicles??


----------



## Blythe

Briss - mrs nargund is my fs...she has an nhs clinic at st georges. She told me whilst my amh is in low bracket they could try mild stimulation for me....this is 3 days of drugs and sometimes helps with producing more than one egg, apparently. 

Im so sorry you have had such an upsetting day.....you could still be years away from menopause but starting natural ivf sounds like a good way forward. 

I had my fertility scan on the last few days of my cycle. An experienced sonographer can pinpoint the tiniest follies regardless of day. Dont forget these change every month.


----------



## Blythe

Ps :hugs:

Pps stop reading about IVF and death...this info is no use to you!! Also does not apply as you will be doing it naturally. 

Ppps cry it out but then head up and focus on the next thing...you will get there.


----------



## Briss

thanks blythe, I did not realise mrs nargund was your fs. :) i think you are in good hands

I thought your AMH was quite good actually. unfortunately she did not offer us mild stimulation not with my FSH/AMH but I am fine with that

mrs nargund made my situation sound very desperate. I guess she would not have said it if it was not true because I recall she did not make you feel like you need to rush into IVF so she seems to treat every case individually on its merits and I tend to trust her also because my FS said the same thing a year ago.

I have not started my raw herbs yet and not sure I want to now...


----------



## Blythe

Yes her and another lady....she runs the clinic at st George's once/twice per week and create rest of time. They are both blunt..I guess if you are dealing with hundreds of ladies with stats you say it how it is. She seemed perplexed (well they both did) why I hadn't already got stuck in. My last clomid scan ended with something along the lines of "with your age you need to start this as soon as you can". I'm lucky as I get a free consult with create and they won't have to repeat any tests although the later should also be true for you. Create was recommended to me by my own gp ( who is friends with dr n) 2 years ago so I sometimes think if I had started it then it would all be over but I had no way of knowing that I would have been TTC for almost 3 yrs with no success ( well 1 x chem). You have tried everything to get your bfp naturally and that was not a waste of time. 

They will do your scan and decide whether you could take drugs or not (your follies may not reflect your stats (which are far from terrible). I am in the same bracket as you but overall from stats and in particular resting folicle count she said I could probably handle some stimulation. She was flummoxed as to why I wanted to give clomid a go but once prescriptions written she then said I could do IVF with clomid. 

Briss you are ok and there's plenty of good stuff to go on. You have great regular cycles any ovulate each month. Your stats are giving you an indication that your fertility is challenged. I think as an alternate to TTC naturally (it can still happen) natural IVF might be the ticket as it will get past the lower sc. don't think for one moment I don't feel your pain but I want to encourage you to keep moving forwards with hope. There's plenty of good eggs there and hopefully the next one is just around the corner if not here already :flower:


----------



## Juniperjules

Blythe.. Very well said ; )


----------



## Blythe

Re the Chinese herbs.....I think you will be fine taking them particularly as you will most likely be doing natural or modified IVF. You are seeing one of the leading experts in tcm in the country and this stuff has the potential to regenerate you and your repro organs....I know you have not felt the benefits yet but it has been working. Without this treatment you may have felt worse. I have to tell you from what I gather you are working long hours and I certainly couldn't cope with them nowadays (granted I am a few years older though ;)) without it having a detrimental effect on my health. I hope I'm not saying anything out if turn. 
Might be worth running this by dr z but it would a shame to waste them.


----------



## Briss

Blythe thank you for your constant support! where would I be without you :) I tried not to pay too much attention to my numbers and hope that it does not mean much because I do have a very good cycle and ovulate on my own and I do not feel old at all (particularly after loosing a bit of weight I feel so much better) and I was hoping that if we manage to increase my DH's number we could conceive naturally and with TCM I could get a bit of a break while waiting for him to get his numbers sorted. Unfortunately it's just not working out that way and every time I get to talk to a FS I feel it's all over for us (I mean natural TTC), they make me panic because they only judge my condition by the numbers and in their eyes it's terrible. 

at CREATE I won't have to repeat my tests apart from the scan which i really want to do because I did not have anything like that and I secretly hope it may show a picture different to my FSH/AMH numbers because I still find it so hard to believe I have numbers of practically a 45 year old but even if the quantity is not good I hope I have a good blood-flow to my ovaries (which is the main reason I went to TCM) which can prove that the quality is still there.

when I mentioned natural cycle IVF my FS also said that CREAt is the place to go as they more of it than any other clinic in London. I was also thinking of IUI and maybe going to UCH but I can now see IUI is not an option for us so I guess we are sticking with CREATE. I hope to be able to do most of it at harley street as wimbledon is just so far away. I was quite impressed how this clinic is all about women's health which is my main concern in IVF as opposed to success rate. I so agree with this approach cos I measure success not just by BFP and a baby at the end but also my and baby's health and life expectancy following that. Also am thinking if I am lucky to get at least one child (even an IVF child) it will take a bit of pressure off and we can try TTC naturally for a few more years for the second and then do more natural cycle IVFs in my 40s if we are unsuccessful. I guess a prospect of not having any children is just too much to bear for me, so IVF it is then

I still think you can get pregnant naturally, your and your DH's numbers look good and your cycle is great. After talking to your FS I feel like it was the last straw and lost any hope for natural TTC ever being successful for us. We will be moving to natural cycle IVF but I cant help but feel i failed. 

Maybe I will take the raw herbs to finish this cycle off and then stop for the natural IVF cycle. my constant worry is early ovulation and length of my cycle. before laparoscopy in 2012 it was 25-29 days but after lap it got down to 22-24. then it seemed to start recovering and I had 26-28 day cycle but even since I started doing acu/herb it was constantly 24/25 and there only 2 cycles where I had 26/27 days were the ones where I did not take herbs. on the plus side I forgot the last time I had clots and do have more energy


----------



## Blythe

Briss said:


> Blythe thank you for your constant support! where would I be without you :) I tried not to pay too much attention to my numbers and hope that it does not mean much because I do have a very good cycle and ovulate on my own and I do not feel old at all (particularly after loosing a bit of weight I feel so much better) and I was hoping that if we manage to increase my DH's number we could conceive naturally and with TCM I could get a bit of a break while waiting for him to get his numbers sorted. Unfortunately it's just not working out that way and every time I get to talk to a FS I feel it's all over for us (I mean natural TTC), they make me panic because they only judge my condition by the numbers and in their eyes it's terrible.
> 
> at CREATE I won't have to repeat my tests apart from the scan which i really want to do because I did not have anything like that and I secretly hope it may show a picture different to my FSH/AMH numbers because I still find it so hard to believe I have numbers of practically a 45 year old but even if the quantity is not good I hope I have a good blood-flow to my ovaries (which is the main reason I went to TCM) which can prove that the quality is still there.
> 
> when I mentioned natural cycle IVF my FS also said that CREAt is the place to go as they more of it than any other clinic in London. I was also thinking of IUI and maybe going to UCH but I can now see IUI is not an option for us so I guess we are sticking with CREATE. I hope to be able to do most of it at harley street as wimbledon is just so far away. I was quite impressed how this clinic is all about women's health which is my main concern in IVF as opposed to success rate. I so agree with this approach cos I measure success not just by BFP and a baby at the end but also my and baby's health and life expectancy following that. Also am thinking if I am lucky to get at least one child (even an IVF child) it will take a bit of pressure off and we can try TTC naturally for a few more years for the second and then do more natural cycle IVFs in my 40s if we are unsuccessful. I guess a prospect of not having any children is just too much to bear for me, so IVF it is then
> 
> I still think you can get pregnant naturally, your and your DH's numbers look good and your cycle is great. After talking to your FS I feel like it was the last straw and lost any hope for natural TTC ever being successful for us. We will be moving to natural cycle IVF but I cant help but feel i failed.
> 
> Maybe I will take the raw herbs to finish this cycle off and then stop for the natural IVF cycle. my constant worry is early ovulation and length of my cycle. before laparoscopy in 2012 it was 25-29 days but after lap it got down to 22-24. then it seemed to start recovering and I had 26-28 day cycle but even since I started doing acu/herb it was constantly 24/25 and there only 2 cycles where I had 26/27 days were the ones where I did not take herbs. on the plus side I forgot the last time I had clots and do have more energy


the scale for AFC they go by is 10-20..you will see all sorts of ranges on the web but these are the ones that Dr N and her team go by. i am 10-11 so i am lowest end of normal scale. i have seen plenty of good results with IVF with much lower numbers than this though.

you are right and reminded me of something dr n said which was she does not look to stimulate ovaries of ladies like me on the lower end of the scale as it can have detrimental effects. i do find it incredible as having just done this clomid round i can tell you that before ovulation i had a good deal of bloating and was very aware of one ovary in particular. i can hardly imagine what it is like for women that have taken their meds and are about to have about 20 eggs collected...they must be bloated beyond belief...all those 20cm + follicles vying for space. 

i have to say despite living in SW london harley st is easier for me to [than wimbledon] get to as i don't have a car in london so going by public transport requires me to go into town and then out again.

i have horrid cystitis and its very painful :( Im feeling very emotional [as per] and just watched star wars [the original] and cried at the end....Through the emotion of it all i still found time to fantasise about a young Harrison Ford and me in compromising circumstances :)


----------



## vkj73

Just wanted to say hi!
Hope everyone is hanging in there :hugs:

Thanks for all the thoughtful replies:kiss:


----------



## Briss

Blythe, really sorry about the cystitis, how awful! is there anything you can do to make it better? i know that antibiotics help but not an option in tww. 

I do cry from time to time while watching movies but cant say I cried over star wars :) must be clomid playing up with your hormones.

Had to work today :( so hate its monday tomorrow and back to work. I cant think of anything but IVF at the moment


----------



## Breaking Dawn

Briss....so sorry for your difficult news at your appt with the FS. However as Blythe said....you are on the right track and will be on your way to a bfp soon :)

I think sticking with herbs and acu is a good thing....keep it up if you can !

AFM ...had our IUIs this cycle...back2back....yesterday and today....TWW starts tomorrow!


----------



## Juniperjules

Blythe, I'm sure ur doing all the right things.. But a few tips for cystitis: avoid coffee/caffeine, use the loo as soon as you feel the urge (ie don't hold it in!), drinks lots of water (obvious one!), to help reduce the acidity of your urine and the burning sensation when u pee, get a teaspoon of bicarb of soda & dissolve it in a glass of water & drink. And repeat it a few times if neededcouple of times if necessary. And the tough one..relax and avoid things that cause stress or anxiety bcos it can exacerbate or bring on an attack of cystitis. And wear loose clothing &cotton underwear.. 

You probly knew all of the above but just incase it helps!!


----------



## Blythe

Juniperjules said:


> Blythe, I'm sure ur doing all the right things.. But a few tips for cystitis: avoid coffee/caffeine, use the loo as soon as you feel the urge (ie don't hold it in!), drinks lots of water (obvious one!), to help reduce the acidity of your urine and the burning sensation when u pee, get a teaspoon of bicarb of soda & dissolve it in a glass of water & drink. And repeat it a few times if neededcouple of times if necessary. And the tough one..relax and avoid things that cause stress or anxiety bcos it can exacerbate or bring on an attack of cystitis. And wear loose clothing &cotton underwear..
> 
> You probly knew all of the above but just incase it helps!!

Hi Juniperjules

thanks very much for this...i did not know about the bicard tip. :flower:


----------



## Blythe

Briss said:


> Blythe, really sorry about the cystitis, how awful! is there anything you can do to make it better? i know that antibiotics help but not an option in tww.
> 
> I do cry from time to time while watching movies but cant say I cried over star wars :) must be clomid playing up with your hormones.
> 
> Had to work today :( so hate its monday tomorrow and back to work. I cant think of anything but IVF at the moment



Working sunday is not great...i hope you wont have to work more weekends this summer. 

i so hope you wont have to go for ivf and this is your miracle month but if you do i will be following you every step of the way. if i start the process with create then it will be only a couple of months after you.

its so hot and i have so much work to do but cannnot apply myself at all. i have been working from home today and already done 2 x juices and another in a flash for later. Mind you i was desperate for something solid so ended up eating coco pops and toast!


----------



## Briss

I am trying not think about it too much and just get on with filling in forms for the appointment and reading up on people's experiences with natural cycled IVF at CREATE to get familiar with the process and main issues. am thinking whether we should sign up for 3 IVFs as with just one egg per cycle it does not look very likely that one IVF would be enough (taking into account my new understanding that high FSH/low AMH=poor egg quality, not just quantity). 

I do not even notice the heat as under air conditioning all day and feeling rather cold&#8230; I really need to apply myself more to work and the multi million deal I am responsible for but I just cannot! our next IVF cycle is all I can think about. would love to be able to work from home, so nice. I may get some carrots on the way home and do some juicing. it's been a while. 

For some reason my left ovary is hurting every day. I suspect it developed a cyst after ovulation. 

am yet to cook the herbs, I think I should considering how much money I spent on them&#8230; 

I know my mum is really upset about the whole thing and worries so much about us and yet today she was on about how she is following the royal baby situation&#8230;. I snapped. feel bad I really tried my best to ignore the whole thing to make it less painful for myself considering the situation we are in. it just shows that even people who really care about you cannot quite understand the extent of our misery.


----------



## Jazzbird

Hi All

Nice to read all your posts. Blythe sorry about your cystitis - it's such a horrible feeling. Briss - so good to hear you are trying ivf. Juniper - hope you're doing ok. 

Hubs is back from hospital but suffering from major dizziness and can only lie flat. This may go on for weeks - maybe months (so doctor says). I'm on cd 19 - no sign of ovulation or ewcm. Does anyone know if long follicular phases are indicative of poor egg quality in western medical terms? 

Acu says it is stress causing this long cycle. 

Hope everyone is holding up over the royal baby hoopla. 

Xxx


----------



## Briss

jazzbird, it's definitely the stress, I observed several cycles where I ovulated much later than usual when I was under a lot of stress before O. sometimes I get high on my CBFM on the right day but because of stress it take 5-6 days to get a peak so LH surge is being delayed.


----------



## Juniperjules

Blythe, glad to be of help ; ) 

Jazz, god ur poor hubby! that sounds awful. i wouldnt be surprised if ur acu person is right about the stress. if only our bodies werent so blasted sensitive!

Briss, even here in melbourne the royal baby is all over the TV & papers. I'm trying to refrain from smart alec comments or cynicism.. Which would otherwise come quite easily.. I have been known to be quite short & nasty in my comments about other people's pregnancies & babies- but only ever when I'm talking to my mum. I could never say to anyone else some of the things I've said to my mum!!! I guess she's my sounding board.. My venting person who can listen to me being really quite childish & bi*#hy at times!! But sometimes u do just need to say things out loud & feel the release that comes with it. Usually my mum will say something very motherly like 'now come on, you don't really mean that, that's not who you really are'. And she reminds me that it's NOT who I really am to be negative & pessimistic about a baby.

The sad thing about it is, I AM interested, & I DO want to see the little prince when he leaves hospital.. It's really an awful feeling when u want to cover up & smother your natural instinct to be interested & joyful about something bcos u know that it will also make u hurt very deeply inside. 

So I think this time around I'm going to let myself be positive & happy about this royal baby- I'm hoping it'll be karma... That if I'm giving out good vibes that they will come back to me & help me find my own baby on this journey..


----------



## Briss

Juniper, you are so kind, I wish I could be like that. I think I might have been interested in the royal baby if I was pregnant but with how things are at the moment it's one of those things that I prefer to ignore. To me having to move on to IVf is a very hard pill to take so any natural pregnancy/birth (royal or otherwise) is (and unfortunately always will be) a pain to me. I've failed to do the only thing I've been designed to do, as simple as that.

quite depressing to see what my temp is doing considering it's super hot in London, it's below my usual post O levels even for the winter (in summer I usually get much higher levels)


----------



## Briss

started my raw herbs yesterday, although there were supposed to be more herbs than last time they taste very similar almost the same actually. The taste is better - quite a relief after horrible herbs I was taking last couple of months but cooking is rather time consuming.


----------



## Juniperjules

Briss, don't b so hard on urself. I am certain u are a lovely kind person.. You are a good & compassionate friend to all of us in here every day. And you are completely entitled to feel the way you do. 

Well done with the herbs.. I had a hard enough time drinking the disgusting tea my TCM gave me!! Blah! Terrible it was!


----------



## Briss

managed to burn my herbs last night&#8230; what an idiot. I drank half and was supposed to leave the other half for the morning but somehow left the cooker on and they completely burnt&#8230; 

I have to say I am little bit scared about tomorrow's scan and appointment, FSs never tell me good news and every time I go I am told something much worse than I can ever anticipate so I am just simply frightened

I hate my temp, it's just way too low for my post O temp. Maybe I did not even ovulate this cycle&#8230;


----------



## Blythe

Briss said:


> managed to burn my herbs last night what an idiot. I drank half and was supposed to leave the other half for the morning but somehow left the cooker on and they completely burnt
> 
> I have to say I am little bit scared about tomorrow's scan and appointment, FSs never tell me good news and every time I go I am told something much worse than I can ever anticipate so I am just simply frightened
> 
> I hate my temp, it's just way too low for my post O temp. Maybe I did not even ovulate this cycle

of course you are scared...i will be thinking of you and hoping all goes well. I hope you hear something which will provide some reassurance. I guess for them the follie count provides a relatively good idea of how you would respond to meds...you may find that your count is enough to go ahead with modified ivf. If it is poor then i cannot imagine for one moment this would affect your chances with natural ivf. I have seen some girls with around 4 follies going ahead with medicated ivf rounds and respond. quite frankly it all seems like such a lottery to me nowadays.

Theres little i can say to you other than you have lots of support here and you are a very strong lady. Whatever else is thrown at you you will keep going forward and will reach your goal.

Today has been horrible and i feel i have gone through a whole range of emotions about ttc. why the F cant i just get pregnant..i have sex at the right time and stick my arse in the air like a twat for at least 30 mins and take all these stupid supplements and it just wont happen...its been 31 cycles and i was 38 when we started ttc this baby. I went to get my prog levels taken at the hospital and there was lots of pregnant ladies with their notes looking excited going in for their scans. i had to keep averting my gaze as i could not bear to see them anymore.

sorry to hear about the herbs...i hope your le creuset saucepan is ok...i love those.


----------



## Briss

I am very sorry about you feeling sad today, although I am the same. I feel your pain cos your cycles and stats are so good you should be able to get pregnant and you will, it's just so upsetting that it's taking ages and no one can explain why. 

I am yet to try and revive my le creuset saucepan, it looked quite sad when I left it this morning cos burnt herbs stuck to it&#8230; oh well,

I read up on egg retrieval and not happy with it at all, still better than lap my FS made me go through before refusing IVF funding, upsets me every time I think about it. 

btw what is AFC?


----------



## Blythe

Antral folicle count

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antral_follicle


----------



## Briss

thank you! I wonder if they can count my AFC on 6 DPO. it's probably only before O that you can do it


----------



## Blythe

Afc can be done any day of cycle and an experienced sonographer can detect resting follies at any time. They are about 1mm. There are some pics on google. I had mine done on cd 26 or 27. Advice can change from month to month.


----------



## Blythe

Briss - I hope your appt goes ok today :flower:


----------



## Briss

thanks Blythe but why were you up at 3.30 am?


----------



## Blythe

i keep waking up in the night and sometimes check my phone. bad habit :wacko:


----------



## Blythe

this is quite interesting about AFC:

https://www.advancedfertility.com/antralfollicles.htm


----------



## Briss

Reporting back on my initial consultation and scan. I got both good and bad news. 

my antral follicle count was 9 (7 on the left ovary and 2 on the right), one doc said it corresponded to my low AMH levels and at my age they would expect at least 5 more follicles but Dr Nargund was of the opinion that the count is too good for my AMH and she suspects that this is empty follicles caused by Chinese herbs so she did not think it was representative. quite depressingly she said my AMh of smb who is 42-43 years old&#8230; 

Bad news I now got cysts on both ovaries, even a professor was called in during the scan to try and identify whether we've a got a problem here. basically, the scary part is that I need to do CA 125 blood test to check for ovarian cancer!!! the right cyst seemed OK as there was no blood flow to it but the left one unfortunately had some blood flow (but hopefully this is because I ovulated from left ovary as they could see the corpus luteum) also, it might be tricky to do egg retrieval as they will have to maneuver the needle to try not to puncture the cyst. 

the good news I have excellent blood flow to my uterus! actually might be thanks to Chinese herbs. also excellent lining. 

based on the scan Dr Nargund thought we might get away with mild stimulation i.e. modified cycle IVF and she hopes we can get 2 eggs.

Mild stimulation IVF cost: up to £4,200

IVF: 2550
sedation: 230
hfea fee: 75
icsi 870
blood test: 75-150
menopur 120-150
cetrotide 105-140
ovitrelle 15-30

at the end she said that based on what she knows about us she would give us 25% chance of getting a BFP after one cycle and 10-16% chance of taking a baby home, not very optimistic, is she :(


----------



## Blythe

Briss said:


> Reporting back on my initial consultation and scan. I got both good and bad news.
> 
> my antral follicle count was 9 (7 on the left ovary and 2 on the right), one doc said it corresponded to my low AMH levels and at my age they would expect at least 5 more follicles but Dr Nargund was of the opinion that the count is too good for my AMH and she suspects that this is empty follicles caused by Chinese herbs so she did not think it was representative. quite depressingly she said my AMh of smb who is 42-43 years old
> 
> Bad news I now got cysts on both ovaries, even a professor was called in during the scan to try and identify whether we've a got a problem here. basically, the scary part is that I need to do CA 125 blood test to check for ovarian cancer!!! the right cyst seemed OK as there was no blood flow to it but the left one unfortunately had some blood flow (but hopefully this is because I ovulated from left ovary as they could see the corpus luteum) also, it might be tricky to do egg retrieval as they will have to maneuver the needle to try not to puncture the cyst.
> 
> the good news I have excellent blood flow to my uterus! actually might be thanks to Chinese herbs. also excellent lining.
> 
> based on the scan Dr Nargund thought we might get away with mild stimulation i.e. modified cycle IVF and she hopes we can get 2 eggs.
> 
> Mild stimulation IVF cost: up to £4,200
> 
> IVF: 2550
> sedation: 230
> hfea fee: 75
> icsi 870
> blood test: 75-150
> menopur 120-150
> cetrotide 105-140
> ovitrelle 15-30
> 
> at the end she said that based on what she knows about us she would give us 25% chance of getting a BFP after one cycle and 10-16% chance of taking a baby home, not very optimistic, is she :(

Wow lots of info here. firstly, im sorry to hear about this cyst that is causing them concern...when will you be doing the blood test?

Secondly, theres some really good stuff here, the lining, the blood flow, the follie count. Im not sure what she means about the chinese herbs causing the extra follies. 

did she suggest you go for the icsi? it actually works out more than i originally thought...uggg how depressing. She is very matter of fact in her delivery of advice and info....stats and ivf are generally quite depressing aren't they.


----------



## Jazzbird

Hi Briss

I'm so sorry to read your news. I really hope they can investigate and get you some answers quickly. You really don't need this stress right now. 

Good to hear that your lining is excellent. That is brilliant news. And what is an empty follicle? How do they know its empty? Are they basing it solely on your AMH reading?

I hope with regards to tcm things are starting to move in the right direction. It takes time and perhaps these "empty" follicles are down to tcm and its starting to reset your body's response to your hormones.


----------



## Briss

I was not surprised to hear I have a new cyst on the left ovary cos after ovulation the ovary was quite sensitive for a few days and I could tell it felt like a cyst coming out. I used to have these cysts all the time but they came and went. the professor said this is a different cyst and is likely to stay. if I was younger and had more time to play around they would suggest having a surgery to remove it before doing IVF but considering my age and stats they think I should proceed with IVF asap.

I am also very concerned about the cancer blood test but again it looks like they think it's unlikely and would even suggest mild stimulation. confusing to me. I read the description of this new cyst and it has some solid mass inside which is really worrying :(

re empty follicles, I think it just comes from her previous experience. you cant really say whether the follicles are empty or not until you get inside and try to extract the egg. My concern is that while my left ovary is doing OK follicle wise my right ovary is just managed to produce 2 follicles - does it mean it's lazy? could it because there was this cyst seating there last couple of years stopping it to function properly? OI should have asked these questions at the appointment but I have to say I was a bit overwhelmed with the new info. 

we need to do various blood tests before they can start IVF but my DH is going away for a week so we may not be able to get it all done in time for the next cycle. Also I can try to do these tests via the NHS for free but it will take longer to get results. 

She did suggest we go for the icsi but I asked that we decide on the day of egg retrieval and if the sperm sample is good they will try IVF rather than icsi. 

I really do not know why she is so pessimistic about our chances. I am so sure that as soon as we get over sperm count issue we can achieve pregnancy. Most of her pessimism comes from my AMH test, I wish I did not do the test to be honest.


----------



## Breaking Dawn

Briss....sounds like your appt was a lot to take in both good andbadnews ! 
Re: your cyst. When I was younger I had a solid mass cyst on my ovary...I also had a scare of getting bloodwork and scan to checkwhat it was...thankfully benign. Did they give you a name of the cyst? The kind I had (if that's yours too) it is extremely rare to have it be cancer. I thinking of u...I know how u feel I was scared too.

Blythe...I hear ya on not getting a bfp

Especially feeling it today as I had lunch with a friend ..she was on her honey moon over first week of July and she is pregnant . 

So so so so so very bitter sweet .


----------



## Juniperjules

Briss, am glad to hear at least some of ur appt was positive news. On the antral follicle count.. You've got 1 more than me! I had 5 on the right & 3 on the left. I feel a bit the same as you, I keep thinking hmmmmm why is there only 3 in the left?? If I at least had 1 or 2 more in the left I'd feel happier.

BUT, i have to tell you that my GP, the FS @ the hospital & the head of radiology who did my HSG, have ALL told me not to concern myself about 8. They ALL individually said 'if you had more than 12 you'd have PCOS, and you only need ONE to get a baby!' So your 9 they would say is no problem at all! 

The closer I'm getting to seeing my new FS the more scared I'm getting... Am scared she'll look at all my numbers & together will see something no one else has. My AMH is confusing me, I keep wondering if it was a mistake.. Ie they messed up the results at the lab, or something went wrong somewhere.. I'm imagining her getting me to do it again bcos it doesn't add up to have only 8 follicles but have an AMH of 42.8p/mol. 

How amazing it will be if you do ur round of IVF & get pregnant. I keep thinking how that day can just completely turn ur life around!! Although u then have to get thru 9 months of course!! Which can be a rollercoaster in itself.

The great news is that it's all possible Briss, it can really happen. Hopefully ur cyst will b a teeny bump in the road & u can move forward quickly. 

Fingers crossed for you x

Breaking dawn, tough day for you too. It's an awful feeling, we've all been there, to be happy for a friend but ur own heart is breaking quietly saying why isn't it me??? (((Hugs))) to you..


----------



## Briss

Juniper, I was actually told that at our age we are supposed to have at least 5 more follicles so around 13-14, I think you need much more than 12 for POAS, but cant be certain as never had this issue. I agree with you that AFC of 8 and AMH of 42.8p are the world apart, one of those must be wrong??

Breaking dawn, tough day I feel for you. Did they remove your cyst in the end or did it just disappear on its own? my left cyst does not have a name, they just do not know what this is. I was quite scared when the doc called for the professor and they spend a lot of time looking at it at various angels and discussing it

The more I think about that cancer blood test and two cysts and them suggesting mild stimulation does not seem quite right. surely stimulation will do something to my cysts? she also confirmed that given the cysts egg collection will be tricky. I am considering waiting the next cycle and coming back for IVF in a month. Hoping my left cyst disappears by then but then of course there is a danger that it will grow bigger&#8230;

I started cramping unfortunately, very common for me in the second part of TWW, not that I had much hope for this cycle.


----------



## Briss

I am getting really worked up about these meds. Menopur/ Ovitrelle seem so dangerous! and it's not supposed to be used for women with ovarian cysts or enlarged ovaries, not due to polycystic ovary syndrome (PCOS). why would they prescribe it to me? the risks are really bad. https://www.netdoctor.co.uk/pregnancy/medicines/menopur.html https://www.netdoctor.co.uk/pregnancy/medicines/ovitrelle.html OHSS can occur with any of these drags!


----------



## Blythe

Briss said:


> I am getting really worked up about these meds. Menopur/ Ovitrelle seem so dangerous! and it's not supposed to be used for women with ovarian cysts or enlarged ovaries, not due to polycystic ovary syndrome (PCOS). why would they prescribe it to me? the risks are really bad. https://www.netdoctor.co.uk/pregnancy/medicines/menopur.html https://www.netdoctor.co.uk/pregnancy/medicines/ovitrelle.html OHSS can occur with any of these drags!

I think all thee meds that they use in stimulated cycles have crap risks. I guess you have to trust that they will take into account your situation and prescribe what they consider to be a safe dosage. 

I'm scared of it all :(

I watched Richard and Elizabeth earlier. It was on bbc4 earlier this week and I loved it. They were both brilliant and I cried as usual. They had a great love.


----------



## Briss

Blythe, I am not convinced, I think I want to do completely natural cycle, no meds of any kind. she does not expect me to produce more than two eggs anyway so to go into all this trouble and end up with just one egg will be disappointing. I need to think this through

Elizabeth was a great beauty. unfortunately she somehow aged really quickly I mean she was still young and beautiful but looked a bit wasted, not like a girl but like a women who lived. and her innocent look disappeared very quickly. still I like looking at her pictures although do not know much about her private life. 

am still persevering with my raw herbs, after awful sockets they taste really good to me


----------



## Breaking Dawn

Juniper...thx Hun. Goodlck at your appt. I know I feel the same nervous for appts ...scared to find out reality. But hang in there....remember more knowledge means you will have a better plan!

Briss...I did have it removed....it was causing me great pain and would only continue to grow. It was a solid mass. 

I agree with you...do not take meds if you have a cyst. Go natural. It will not cause m problems.

This TWW is draggggging!!


----------



## Blythe

Briss said:


> Blythe, I am not convinced, I think I want to do completely natural cycle, no meds of any kind. she does not expect me to produce more than two eggs anyway so to go into all this trouble and end up with just one egg will be disappointing. I need to think this through
> 
> Elizabeth was a great beauty. unfortunately she somehow aged really quickly I mean she was still young and beautiful but looked a bit wasted, not like a girl but like a women who lived. and her innocent look disappeared very quickly. still I like looking at her pictures although do not know much about her private life.
> 
> am still persevering with my raw herbs, after awful sockets they taste really good to me



I first started the process of IVF back in may when I turned 41. In fact it was on on my birthday that I went to the docs and asked her to refer me to kings. Once I had done all the forms etc i started getting cold feet and I still have. I think to start this you need to be comfortable with it and ready for it. I think taking those drugs would stress you too much and I think you should most certainly insist upon something that feels better for you. I also think you have had quite enough of FS telling you what you can and can't do so insist upon it, at the very least your first (hopefully last) round. 

You are right about Liz. I remember her from my youth as a nan like figure who sold perfume....white diamonds comes to mind along with the awful adverts! I also remember the multiple marriages, the friendship with mj and uri geller. Not the coolest thing. (I loved mj before bubbles and BAD). Anyhow the programme was centred on them being in a play together, Noel cowards private lives which they did in NyC about a year before he died. They had both moved on and had different partners and she was drunk through most if it and booked into Betty ford clinic shortly after the run. They had a flashback scene at the end of when they were younger and in love and it really moved me to tears.


----------



## Briss

it's also interesting that the prof thought my right cyst was endometriotic but when I had lap they saw this cyst and they did not think I had any endo. 

I recorded "burton and taylor", is it the one you were watching?


----------



## Blythe

Briss said:


> it's also interesting that the prof thought my right cyst was endometriotic but when I had lap they saw this cyst and they did not think I had any endo.
> 
> I recorded "burton and taylor", is it the one you were watching?

thats the one :)


----------



## Blythe

every month since i started my period for one day only my skin glows and i wake up looking really good....dare i say pretty!! it only happens once a month and it does not really extend beyond lunchtime nowadays. Anyhow, it is a sure sign AF will be coming along...today i am glowing [with occasional AF cramping] :( 

Still im prepared mentally for another round of clomid and i will add black cohosh next cycle.


----------



## Briss

am watching it now :) really good!


----------



## Briss

glowing sounds wonderful, shame it's associated with AF :( i do not get any glowing, just mild ramping.

I am seeing GP on wednesday and will be trying to get some blood tests for free via the NHS. in the scheme of things 300 pounds for blood test is not that much but it all adds up

Watching Liz and Rich fighting and no one calls the police on them...


----------



## Blythe

no one called the police for stuff like that in the 70s.....


----------



## Briss

I did have a little cry in the end :) wonderful movie, I love this actress (cant remember the name though)

Was discussing my ivf options with my mum and she thinks without the meds it may take more attempts to get pregnant and she was concerned with egg collection procedure and thought it was best to try and minimise these as they are damaging ovaries. so may be with meds we can achieve the result quicker. still not sure, continue weighing pros and cons


----------



## Blythe

Briss said:


> I did have a little cry in the end :) wonderful movie, I love this actress (cant remember the name though)
> 
> Was discussing my ivf options with my mum and she thinks without the meds it may take more attempts to get pregnant and she was concerned with egg collection procedure and thought it was best to try and minimise these as they are damaging ovaries. so may be with meds we can achieve the result quicker. still not sure, continue weighing pros and cons

Helen Bonham Carter....i loved him too and thought at certain angles he looked very much like richard burton.

your mum makes a good point and something i had not really thought about. There is so much to think about isnt there....


----------



## Briss

I finally got to whole foods and got myself some fresh royal jelly, pretty expensive stuff! some 20 gr is about 30 pounds! Taste quite strange as well. Obviously after Chinese herbs, royal jelly does not strike me as anything unpleasant but I thought it would taste more like honey. hopefully it can improve my egg quality/quantity for IVF.


----------



## Briss

Blythe, how are you? I can see you put spotting for today, very sorry, spotting is always so annoying 

I have very bad stomach ache last two days, all from the stress at work (trying to close a deal and things are not working out). been working nights and weekend :( so much for going to bed before 11 pm... thinking that next cycle may be not the best idea for IVF as I am just so stressed at work but then in a month time I may be even more stressed with more deals coming in. I tried not to worry about work but it still somehow gets me, I thought I was indifferent to all this drama at work but obviously if I developed really bad stomach ache i must be stressed somewhere deep down.


----------



## Jazzbird

Hello Acupuncture Buddies! I have some news - I have decided to quit my acupuncturist. I have a few reasons for it:

1. My hubby can do acupuncture on me anyway

2. I want to start taking tailored herbs via powder rather than patent tea pills. I have been reading my infertility textbook and my diagnosis is kidney yin deficiency & kidney yang deficiency. My acupuncturist says they are mild deficiencies. But I read that the two deficiencies can often cancel the symptoms out & mask deficiencies. So I think I am perhaps more deficient than he has diagnosed. Although I was taking the liu wei di huang wan for follicle growth - I have read it is usual to mix blood tonics. So I have ordered my herbs direct from a reputable supplier. I've ordered a mix for follicular phase, another mix for ovulation and another mix for luteal phase which is a patent formula in powder form (you gui wan - this nourishes yang and yin)

3. My current cost for acupuncture and herbs is around £200 per month (4 treatments and patent pills). Although the powdered herbs are more expensive, I'm only paying £60 now.

4. I have to drive for half an hour to get to my acupuncturist. It's a pain.

5. my cycle is the longest its ever been - ovulated finally on cd24 or 25. Whilst I know that stress can disrupt the cycle I'm not so sure I'm responding as well as my textbooks say I should ... so I figured I need a new strategy.

I decided to also book a fertility investigation with the money saved from going for acupuncture. I'm waiting for an appointment date.

Anyway, thought I'd fill you all in - the forums have been quiet for a few days. I hope you are all ok & doing lots of bd 

Yesterday I found out another friend is pregnant from barely even trying. It's really starting to get to me - I know you must all feel it more acutely than me - as its only been 7 months for us. 

By the way Briss, I read a glowing article about Dr Zhai & her clinic. It was fascinating - she seems like she is really good. So keep the faith.


----------



## Blythe

Briss said:


> Blythe, how are you? I can see you put spotting for today, very sorry, spotting is always so annoying
> 
> I have very bad stomach ache last two days, all from the stress at work (trying to close a deal and things are not working out). been working nights and weekend :( so much for going to bed before 11 pm... thinking that next cycle may be not the best idea for IVF as I am just so stressed at work but then in a month time I may be even more stressed with more deals coming in. I tried not to worry about work but it still somehow gets me, I thought I was indifferent to all this drama at work but obviously if I developed really bad stomach ache i must be stressed somewhere deep down.

I'm ok....also stressing but fortunately working long hours. Finding it virtually impossible to stop over thinking everything....so exhausting. 

I'm thinking about putting off IVF till end if year and also thinking of going to kings rather than create. I'm not impressed with their policy of not refunding any monies if no eggs collected. 

I'm having hot tummy flushes which I usually get day before AF so hope she arrives soon so I can get focused on next plan of attack. Have gone through the worst of this months blues but still totally miserable. 

I wonder if there is a good time to do IVF.....it's impossible for you to predict a good month in terms of workload I would imagine. It may be a case if just having to jump in and go for it. 

Hope your stomach ache stops soon. :flower:


----------



## smurfy

Jazzbird said:


> Hello Acupuncture Buddies! I have some news - I have decided to quit my acupuncturist. I have a few reasons for it:
> 
> 1. My hubby can do acupuncture on me anyway
> 
> 2. I want to start taking tailored herbs via powder rather than patent tea pills. I have been reading my infertility textbook and my diagnosis is kidney yin deficiency & kidney yang deficiency. My acupuncturist says they are mild deficiencies. But I read that the two deficiencies can often cancel the symptoms out & mask deficiencies. So I think I am perhaps more deficient than he has diagnosed. Although I was taking the liu wei di huang wan for follicle growth - I have read it is usual to mix blood tonics. So I have ordered my herbs direct from a reputable supplier. I've ordered a mix for follicular phase, another mix for ovulation and another mix for luteal phase which is a patent formula in powder form (you gui wan - this nourishes yang and yin)
> 
> 3. My current cost for acupuncture and herbs is around £200 per month (4 treatments and patent pills). Although the powdered herbs are more expensive, I'm only paying £60 now.
> 
> 4. I have to drive for half an hour to get to my acupuncturist. It's a pain.
> 
> 5. my cycle is the longest its ever been - ovulated finally on cd24 or 25. Whilst I know that stress can disrupt the cycle I'm not so sure I'm responding as well as my textbooks say I should ... so I figured I need a new strategy.
> 
> I decided to also book a fertility investigation with the money saved from going for acupuncture. I'm waiting for an appointment date.
> 
> Anyway, thought I'd fill you all in - the forums have been quiet for a few days. I hope you are all ok & doing lots of bd
> 
> Yesterday I found out another friend is pregnant from barely even trying. It's really starting to get to me - I know you must all feel it more acutely than me - as its only been 7 months for us.
> 
> By the way Briss, I read a glowing article about Dr Zhai & her clinic. It was fascinating - she seems like she is really good. So keep the faith.

Hey there

I can see your points on the accuputure, time and costs, as you say remember it has only been 7 mths and average is at least 12mths at our age &#61514;

In terms of tests, I would suggest going to your GP to dicuss, firstly they can give you a blood test normally 7 days after your ovulation and they can check your hormones, this will be free on the NHS also they should test your husband too. I would suggest you tell her you have been trying for over a year so they will move forward with these 2 simple tests. That will save you some money and can be arrange quite quickly 

We waited too long for my husband to have his test and that appears to be the problem now, we are back to see FS in a week

Good luck let us know how you get on


----------



## Blythe

Jazzbird said:


> Hello Acupuncture Buddies! I have some news - I have decided to quit my acupuncturist. I have a few reasons for it:
> 
> 1. My hubby can do acupuncture on me anyway
> 
> 2. I want to start taking tailored herbs via powder rather than patent tea pills. I have been reading my infertility textbook and my diagnosis is kidney yin deficiency & kidney yang deficiency. My acupuncturist says they are mild deficiencies. But I read that the two deficiencies can often cancel the symptoms out & mask deficiencies. So I think I am perhaps more deficient than he has diagnosed. Although I was taking the liu wei di huang wan for follicle growth - I have read it is usual to mix blood tonics. So I have ordered my herbs direct from a reputable supplier. I've ordered a mix for follicular phase, another mix for ovulation and another mix for luteal phase which is a patent formula in powder form (you gui wan - this nourishes yang and yin)
> 
> 3. My current cost for acupuncture and herbs is around £200 per month (4 treatments and patent pills). Although the powdered herbs are more expensive, I'm only paying £60 now.
> 
> 4. I have to drive for half an hour to get to my acupuncturist. It's a pain.
> 
> 5. my cycle is the longest its ever been - ovulated finally on cd24 or 25. Whilst I know that stress can disrupt the cycle I'm not so sure I'm responding as well as my textbooks say I should ... so I figured I need a new strategy.
> 
> I decided to also book a fertility investigation with the money saved from going for acupuncture. I'm waiting for an appointment date.
> 
> Anyway, thought I'd fill you all in - the forums have been quiet for a few days. I hope you are all ok & doing lots of bd
> 
> Yesterday I found out another friend is pregnant from barely even trying. It's really starting to get to me - I know you must all feel it more acutely than me - as its only been 7 months for us.
> 
> By the way Briss, I read a glowing article about Dr Zhai & her clinic. It was fascinating - she seems like she is really good. So keep the faith.



I love a new strategy :) WOuld you mind letting me know which supplier you are getting these herbs from? i have a detailed breakdown of my last formula and i would love to take it again but i cannot justify the expense of getting it at acu place. like you im not so sure my little tea pills are making a huge difference.

your DH will have to get over his fear of needles [i remember reading this in one of your first posts and it made me smile]...what a great resource you have to hand!! I hope he is feeling a little better....what a horrible thing to have and to end up in hospital too :(

Jazzbird i know that feeling only too well and whilst i am happy for others it is often so hard to hear of others pregnancy news. it makes my heart throb with pain. 7 months is tuff...its all bollocks whatever stage you are at [well at least once you get past the excited stage...that goes after 3rd AF]

im just waiting for my AF and still undecided upon new strategy but i will give it some thought tonight!!


----------



## gingmg

Briss- I bet considering IVF is both scary and exciting. Whether you do meds or no meds, I'm sure you will come to a decision you feel most comfortable with. 
I've come to quite enjoy the royal jelly!

jazzbird- what's the difference between Chinese and Japanese accupunture? I just realized I get Japanese style done. We moved this last weekend and I haven't decided if I will travel back to the city to keep the same woman, or if I should try someone closer to my new home, and if if I should try to find someone who does Chinese style. 

Blythe- going to do clomid again next cycle and IUI, debating on the BC. What are you going to do? 

I totally here you on feeling somewhat upset when I hear of new pregnancies. I work with a lot of women and it feels like someone is always falling pregnant. People joke that all you have to do is drink the water at work. Well I've been drinking the water and nothing. I'm quite ashamed at myself, heard about another pregnancy and I have yet to congratulate her, its been over a month. It's like I pretend its not happening.


----------



## Blythe

Gingmg I'm going for black cohosh together with the clomid. I'm taking 120mg days 5-12 because I haven't enough for 12 days and don't want to buy a new pot!!

I will take clomid CDs 3-7 instead if recommended 2-6.... You never know that 1 day could make all the difference:wacko:


----------



## Jazzbird

Blythe said:


> Jazzbird said:
> 
> 
> Hello Acupuncture Buddies! I have some news - I have decided to quit my acupuncturist. I have a few reasons for it:
> 
> 1. My hubby can do acupuncture on me anyway
> 
> 2. I want to start taking tailored herbs via powder rather than patent tea pills. I have been reading my infertility textbook and my diagnosis is kidney yin deficiency & kidney yang deficiency. My acupuncturist says they are mild deficiencies. But I read that the two deficiencies can often cancel the symptoms out & mask deficiencies. So I think I am perhaps more deficient than he has diagnosed. Although I was taking the liu wei di huang wan for follicle growth - I have read it is usual to mix blood tonics. So I have ordered my herbs direct from a reputable supplier. I've ordered a mix for follicular phase, another mix for ovulation and another mix for luteal phase which is a patent formula in powder form (you gui wan - this nourishes yang and yin)
> 
> 3. My current cost for acupuncture and herbs is around £200 per month (4 treatments and patent pills). Although the powdered herbs are more expensive, I'm only paying £60 now.
> 
> 4. I have to drive for half an hour to get to my acupuncturist. It's a pain.
> 
> 5. my cycle is the longest its ever been - ovulated finally on cd24 or 25. Whilst I know that stress can disrupt the cycle I'm not so sure I'm responding as well as my textbooks say I should ... so I figured I need a new strategy.
> 
> I decided to also book a fertility investigation with the money saved from going for acupuncture. I'm waiting for an appointment date.
> 
> Anyway, thought I'd fill you all in - the forums have been quiet for a few days. I hope you are all ok & doing lots of bd
> 
> Yesterday I found out another friend is pregnant from barely even trying. It's really starting to get to me - I know you must all feel it more acutely than me - as its only been 7 months for us.
> 
> By the way Briss, I read a glowing article about Dr Zhai & her clinic. It was fascinating - she seems like she is really good. So keep the faith.
> 
> 
> 
> I love a new strategy :) WOuld you mind letting me know which supplier you are getting these herbs from? i have a detailed breakdown of my last formula and i would love to take it again but i cannot justify the expense of getting it at acu place. like you im not so sure my little tea pills are making a huge difference.
> 
> your DH will have to get over his fear of needles [i remember reading this in one of your first posts and it made me smile]...what a great resource you have to hand!! I hope he is feeling a little better....what a horrible thing to have and to end up in hospital too :(
> 
> Jazzbird i know that feeling only too well and whilst i am happy for others it is often so hard to hear of others pregnancy news. it makes my heart throb with pain. 7 months is tuff...its all bollocks whatever stage you are at [well at least once you get past the excited stage...that goes after 3rd AF]
> 
> im just waiting for my AF and still undecided upon new strategy but i will give it some thought tonight!!Click to expand...

Hi Blythe

I get my herbs from mayway but they only sell to herbalists and acupuncturists and you have to send in proof of your qualification. It's part of the new regulatory directives. 

What is the formula? Is it a tailored prescription? Where are you? There are student herb clinics which are dirt cheap but powdered herbs still cost around £50 per month no matter where you go. I'm out of work so it's hard to justify the 200 per month acu costs right now. 

My DH is ok with putting needles in me but he is the biggest baby when it comes to needling him. He is starting to feel better now - and is moving about a bit more. 

So nice to chat to everyone here who understands. Thank you


----------



## Jazzbird

smurfy said:


> Jazzbird said:
> 
> 
> Hello Acupuncture Buddies! I have some news - I have decided to quit my acupuncturist. I have a few reasons for it:
> 
> 1. My hubby can do acupuncture on me anyway
> 
> 2. I want to start taking tailored herbs via powder rather than patent tea pills. I have been reading my infertility textbook and my diagnosis is kidney yin deficiency & kidney yang deficiency. My acupuncturist says they are mild deficiencies. But I read that the two deficiencies can often cancel the symptoms out & mask deficiencies. So I think I am perhaps more deficient than he has diagnosed. Although I was taking the liu wei di huang wan for follicle growth - I have read it is usual to mix blood tonics. So I have ordered my herbs direct from a reputable supplier. I've ordered a mix for follicular phase, another mix for ovulation and another mix for luteal phase which is a patent formula in powder form (you gui wan - this nourishes yang and yin)
> 
> 3. My current cost for acupuncture and herbs is around £200 per month (4 treatments and patent pills). Although the powdered herbs are more expensive, I'm only paying £60 now.
> 
> 4. I have to drive for half an hour to get to my acupuncturist. It's a pain.
> 
> 5. my cycle is the longest its ever been - ovulated finally on cd24 or 25. Whilst I know that stress can disrupt the cycle I'm not so sure I'm responding as well as my textbooks say I should ... so I figured I need a new strategy.
> 
> I decided to also book a fertility investigation with the money saved from going for acupuncture. I'm waiting for an appointment date.
> 
> Anyway, thought I'd fill you all in - the forums have been quiet for a few days. I hope you are all ok & doing lots of bd
> 
> Yesterday I found out another friend is pregnant from barely even trying. It's really starting to get to me - I know you must all feel it more acutely than me - as its only been 7 months for us.
> 
> By the way Briss, I read a glowing article about Dr Zhai & her clinic. It was fascinating - she seems like she is really good. So keep the faith.
> 
> Hey there
> 
> I can see your points on the accuputure, time and costs, as you say remember it has only been 7 mths and average is at least 12mths at our age &#61514;
> 
> In terms of tests, I would suggest going to your GP to dicuss, firstly they can give you a blood test normally 7 days after your ovulation and they can check your hormones, this will be free on the NHS also they should test your husband too. I would suggest you tell her you have been trying for over a year so they will move forward with these 2 simple tests. That will save you some money and can be arrange quite quickly
> 
> We waited too long for my husband to have his test and that appears to be the problem now, we are back to see FS in a week
> 
> Good luck let us know how you get onClick to expand...

Hi Briss

I went to the doctors a couple of months back. DH SA came back fine. They muddled up my blood tests but ended up saying my fsh was "ok" but I have low progesterone. 

Decided I don't want to faff around with nhs as I don't have time to waste ... I don't even trust the blood work I've had done. I would also rather get AMH tested as fsh results can be unreliable. 

Ill keep you all updated


----------



## Jazzbird

gingmg said:


> Briss- I bet considering IVF is both scary and exciting. Whether you do meds or no meds, I'm sure you will come to a decision you feel most comfortable with.
> I've come to quite enjoy the royal jelly!
> 
> jazzbird- what's the difference between Chinese and Japanese accupunture? I just realized I get Japanese style done. We moved this last weekend and I haven't decided if I will travel back to the city to keep the same woman, or if I should try someone closer to my new home, and if if I should try to find someone who does Chinese style.
> 
> Blythe- going to do clomid again next cycle and IUI, debating on the BC. What are you going to do?
> 
> I totally here you on feeling somewhat upset when I hear of new pregnancies. I work with a lot of women and it feels like someone is always falling pregnant. People joke that all you have to do is drink the water at work. Well I've been drinking the water and nothing. I'm quite ashamed at myself, heard about another pregnancy and I have yet to congratulate her, its been over a month. It's like I pretend its not happening.

Hi Gingmg

Nice to see you back on the forum again 

I think the difference between Chinese and Japanese acupuncture is that Japanese is much more gentle. They use finer needles and use moxa more. It's always tricky finding a good acupuncturist and I say this because out of my graduating class I would only personally see 3 out of 40 of them for treatment. I definitely think that it's better to have acupuncture and herbs together. Herbs are actually very powerful and are like a daily drip feed. In fact in China they tend to treat most things with herbs and not acupuncture. 

Also there are lots of home treatments you can do. I should post them but they depend on your diagnosis. 

I hear you on the pregnancies at work. I'm a contractor and all I seem to do is maternity cover contracts! So we have show the baby days and gifts etc. and they all laugh about the pregnancy chair. Perhaps my contracts aren't long enough


----------



## Briss

Jazzbird, that's so great that your Dh can do acupuncture. are you just going to tell him which points to needle? btw does your supplier sell raw herbs? do you know what is the best place to buy these online? AMH is good but to get a full picture you need to do a couple of FSHs and antral follicle count, together with AMH you will get a better idea of your reserve. Dr Zhai is good but then I do not really see her, it's mainly other practitioners (i hope she reviews the prescriptions though)

Blythe, I think you have very good chances to conceive naturally so maybe give it a few more months before moving to IVF. Does kings do natural IVF? I do not think I can wait this long but my stats look far more depressing. my DH agreed to pay for at least one IVF. I think I reconciled to the idea but still cant accept ICSI yet. whenever I think about AF, it gives me great comfort to know that I still do have a backup plan. 

gingmg, how do you take your royal jelly? is it fresh?


----------



## gingmg

Briss- not sure if its "fresh". It's ys organic bee farms brand. Comes like a thick honey. I either eat it straight from the jar or add it to my daily fruit/veggie smoothie. How about you? Have you done research on it? Are there some kinds that are supposed to be really good or better than others? Mine is the royal jelly and bee propolis in one.


----------



## gingmg

In the smoothie I also add wheat grass, flax seeds, and maca powder to it too. Along with milk, kale, a banana, and whatever frozen fruit I have in the freezer.


----------



## Juniperjules

gingmg said:


> Briss- not sure if its "fresh". It's ys organic bee farms brand. Comes like a thick honey. I either eat it straight from the jar or add it to my daily fruit/veggie smoothie. How about you? Have you done research on it? Are there some kinds that are supposed to be really good or better than others? Mine is the royal jelly and bee propolis in one.

Have been thinking of taking the royal jelly myself. Was reading another forum where girls were swearing by it, getting bfp's after a few months of taking it...


----------



## Briss

gingmg, mine is just royal jelly, there is no honey in it so I have a very tiny jar with a tiny spoon and I take a little bit on the tip of my tongue every morning before breakfast (it says you need between 1-3 gram a day). it does not taste very nice I read that bee propolis is also good but I could only find it mixed with honey so it's hard to say how much of propolis is there. i say it's "fresh" cos you are supposed to keep it in the fridge, I think they deliver it either frozen or in a cooling bag. I was thinking of buying this one https://www.apitherapywellbeing.co....elly-wellbeing/product/pure-fresh-royal-jelly cos it's cheaper than buying it in a shop. My Dh thinks I found yet another avenue how to waste money, he does not believe it works. I've done some research and I do not think anything is proven yet, all they say is a queen bee lives off royal jelly which makes her super fertile but whether her food would work in the same way for humans is unclear. 

I force myself to have wheat grass shots every other day. 

Booked my cancer and other tests for tomorrow, scary stuff. it will take at least a week to get the results (but it will save us at least 300-350 pounds, so grateful GP agreed to do the tests via the NHS I hope I am not being cheap here but I feel we are facing huge financial losses in going private IVF route) so I guess we are likely to do IVf next cycle. I do not mind cos I want to understand what's going on with my cyst first. and also want to finish off my raw herbs and then have a clean IVF cycle

I made a few friends on the other thread here a couple of years ago and all the LTTTC girls got eventually pregnant and some had babies and now pregnant second time&#8230; and I am still here going through the same routine month after month &#8230; happy for them but cant help but feel life is a little unfair to some of us. It's CD1 for me and I promised myself not to have nervous breakdowns this cycle cos I want to re test my FSH again on Friday and I am sure my high FSH on CD3 has something to do with me going through terrible emotional breakdowns every CD1-2. I have to say that having a plan B (natural IVF) does help when I feel like crying


----------



## Briss

I wanted to take my mind off AF and get some positives so decided to watch an old movie with Sophie Loren and what do you think? it starts with her being pregnant! and everyone is shouting "she is pregnant she is pregnant" for like 10 minutes, even children... wtf! and it does not stop there, she constantly gets pregnant so she does not go to prison, 6 children and counting and it's only 20 min into the movie... :(


----------



## Blythe

Briss - sorry its cd1. Hope you are feeling ok. I hope everything goes smoothly tomorrow and please be sure to let us know the results. A worrying time for you but hopefully just a case of ruling stuff out. 

Did you stick with the film?


----------



## Briss

Blythe, thanks. the movie is in several parts about different women, am watching the second one and luckily no children or pregnant women here so far. 

I think I will try to get my insurance company to pay for a visit to a smb who specialises on ovarian cancer or generally on ovaries so they explained it to me how stimulation may affect my situation and whether they think my cyst has a potential to turn into smth nasty


----------



## Blythe

Briss said:


> Blythe, thanks. the movie is in several parts about different women, am watching the second one and luckily no children or pregnant women here so far.
> 
> I think I will try to get my insurance company to pay for a visit to a smb who specialises on ovarian cancer or generally on ovaries so they explained it to me how stimulation may affect my situation and whether they think my cyst has a potential to turn into smth nasty

Oh yes if you could that would be invaluable. It's all so unknown inside isn't it but just too have someone that specialises on ovaries take a good look would be great and no doubt very reassuring. Whichever decision I make I feel I'm gambling slightly with my health, particularly with regard to supplements. I would love someone to have a good ole look at my ovaries.


----------



## Briss

I also think sometimes that I might be making it worse with all these supplements etc...


----------



## Juniperjules

Briss said:


> Blythe, thanks. the movie is in several parts about different women, am watching the second one and luckily no children or pregnant women here so far.
> 
> I think I will try to get my insurance company to pay for a visit to a smb who specialises on ovarian cancer or generally on ovaries so they explained it to me how stimulation may affect my situation and whether they think my cyst has a potential to turn into smth nasty

Sounds like a very smart idea Briss to see a specialist & will put ur mind at ease. 

It's amazing how life throws pregnancy in ur face when ur ttc. Im constantly trying to ignore all the pregnant women i see at work from the maternity ward or who have appts with their OB's.... i always feel they look very smug...and they probably don't, it's just me thinking it! I'm going to a baby shower on Sunday- I HATE baby showers with a passion & usually avoid them by working! But this one I will probably enjoy a little as it's with the girls from work who are great fun. Will even allow myself one or two drinks bcos a few of us are going out afterwards. I'm in my Ov week now so it will only b a drink or two, but I've decided I'm not depriving myself of little things anymore while ttc... Bcos it just p*#*es me off when AF arrives & I've lived like a monk for 2 weeks prior for nothing!!


----------



## Briss

Juniper I know what you mean, I was so p*** off when I gave up coffee (it was a daily struggle and complete misery for almost a year!!) and yet my FSH was still rising, when I saw it jump to 19 I lost my will to continue. I am back on my daily latte cos I am convinced all these wonderful lifestyle changes we are making and small and not so small sacrifices while all good they do not actually have much effect on the aging process and fertility (I know I read several books where women claim they got pregnant after changing their lifestyle, I now think it was just a coincidence tbh, otherwise I would have definitely noticed some positives after a year). It's a bit depressing almost like loosing faith you do not know what to believe anymore 

I think I alienated most of my pregnant friends so am not invited to baby showers any more, I do not mind really


----------



## Blythe

I always thought baby showers was an American thing, like Halloween! Prefer the latter. 

Briss I am very much on agreement about these lifestyle changes. As long as you are not chucking booze and pills down your neck I don't think a daily coffee or a few drinks here and there makes much difference at all.


----------



## melly2

Briss, I am with you on this. I REFUSE to give up coffee. Here's a case and point. My employee had horrible endometriosis. She's in her upper 30s. She has had numerous surgeries and has been trying to get pregnant as well. Well, she's been drinking tons of coffee, like me, and sure enough, she told me this week that she's over 3 months pregnant. And get this, she's still drinking coffee. She said she was surprised that she fell pregnant naturally, and I would have to agree, but I'm happy for her. All that said, it further convinces me that lifestyle isn't a huge portion here. My body has become well adapted to coffee, so I think it's just part of my system.

I had an early period this month, at 25 days, and I'm not sure why. I'm a little annoyed. I think it may be my progesterone level dipping. All that said, I keep wondering is this a waste of my time? I secretly blame my husband and find it annoying that he's the source of our problems. I even go as far as blaming my father-in-law, because he smoked cigarets around my husband as a child and I'm now convinced that's why my husband got testicular cancer. Blaming people for our fertility is not good, but I find myself doing it anyway.

Okay, clearly I'm in a mood today. I needed to vent. Thanks for listening!


----------



## Breaking Dawn

Hi ladies. 

I hope you are all doing well. 

Unfortunately I got a bfn today when I tested..11dpo. Go in for bloods tomorrow to confirm.

Ugh...why is this sooo hard.


----------



## Blythe

Breaking Dawn said:


> Hi ladies.
> 
> I hope you are all doing well.
> 
> Unfortunately I got a bfn today when I tested..11dpo. Go in for bloods tomorrow to confirm.
> 
> Ugh...why is this sooo hard.

I'm so sorry you got a bfn. :flower: it's horrible :(


----------



## Breaking Dawn

Yes Blythe. 

Pretty much sucks. The only plus is I can go and open a bottle of red.


----------



## Jazzbird

Sorry Breaking :-(

Briss - how did you get on? I'm in agreement with the comments on lifestyle. When I studied acupuncture we were told that you are born with tendencies to develop certain patterns. Mine has always been yin deficiency. My cycles have always been long. It means I'm particularly sensitive to yin burning activities (staying up late, burning the candle etc). Even when I'm not working (ie now) and have a relaxed pace of life my tongue is still yin deficient. I guess what it means is that acu does go a long way to modify the imbalance but the tendency will always be there. 

And baby showers - eughhhh! Even if I got pregnant I wouldn't want one. It's just too self indulgent. I didn't have a hen do but that's because most of my friends were nursing.

Hubby is still not well and he's going away with work for a week during my fertile window! Grrrrrrrrrrr!


----------



## Jazzbird

Sorry Briss I just saw your query about buying herbs online. I only buy herbs that are properly registered but you have to be a practitioner in herbs or acu. I wouldn't recommend any unofficial sites because you have no idea of the quality or even legality of the ingredients. TCM places great importance on the quality of herbs. 

I must train in herbs but its expensive! Might have to take it up later in life.


----------



## Briss

Breaking dawn, I am so sorry!

Melly, I enjoy my morning latte so much :) and do not feel guilty about it any more. I have women around me with all sorts of gyno conditions you'd think they never get pregnant but they do, one thing i do not see happen often is women getting pregnant with low sperm count partners unfortunately, makes me depressed. 

Jazzbird, thanks for responding, makes me have more confidence in the quality of the herbs I am currently taking. I am sorry your Dh is going to be away during your fertile window, really disappointing 

I got quite drunk today, did not mean to but one of the old partners at my firm was visiting and we started discussing my career and one glass after another ... am due for my FSH blood test tomorrow morning wonder if this may screw things up.


----------



## Briss

Blythe, very sorry about AF, one cycle closer to your BFP, fingers crossed your golden egg is just around the corner. what's your plan of attack? are you going to do more clomid? 

I went for FSH test this morning after sleepless night and alcohol abuse last night (3 gin and tonics!), feeling pretty rough today and a bit concerned I messed up my all important FSH results. On the positive side it's CD3 and my sex drive is starting to kick in. last cycle there was nothing like this so I am hoping it was just a bad cycle all together hence super high FSH results.


----------



## Blythe

Briss said:


> Blythe, very sorry about AF, one cycle closer to your BFP, fingers crossed your golden egg is just around the corner. what's your plan of attack? are you going to do more clomid?
> 
> I went for FSH test this morning after sleepless night and alcohol abuse last night (3 gin and tonics!), feeling pretty rough today and a bit concerned I messed up my all important FSH results. On the positive side it's CD3 and my sex drive is starting to kick in. last cycle there was nothing like this so I am hoping it was just a bad cycle all together hence super high FSH results.

I love a gin and tonic....:)

tbh i was very pleased to see AF....only one thing worse than AF is NO AF when you know you are not pregnant. I was a bit worried in case the clomid had meant no lining and no period. i find a good bright red period puts me in the right frame of mind to tackle another round! if i have a scanty brown bleed it makes me think the month is a complete write off!

i have no clue whether a few gins would effect the results or lack of sleep but i wouldnt have thought it would.

my plan of attack is a fresh juice everyday, folate tablets, coq10, black cohosh and clomid. was going to try and just bonk every other day over a longer period of time but my dh gets tired so going to just save it till ovul


----------



## Blythe

Not bothering with Chinese herbs this cycle.....

Ps briss I like what you said about being one cycle closer to bfp :)


----------



## melly2

Briss said:


> Breaking dawn, I am so sorry!
> 
> Melly, I enjoy my morning latte so much :) and do not feel guilty about it any more. I have women around me with all sorts of gyno conditions you'd think they never get pregnant but they do, one thing i do not see happen often is women getting pregnant with low sperm count partners unfortunately, makes me depressed.
> 
> Jazzbird, thanks for responding, makes me have more confidence in the quality of the herbs I am currently taking. I am sorry your Dh is going to be away during your fertile window, really disappointing
> 
> I got quite drunk today, did not mean to but one of the old partners at my firm was visiting and we started discussing my career and one glass after another ... am due for my FSH blood test tomorrow morning wonder if this may screw things up.

Yes, agree with you. Though everyone says "it only takes one", I'm realizing that this is an issue that very few people can overcome -- sperm count. There is a side of me that wishes this was my issue (like PCOS or fibroids) rather than his...at least it's much easier to fix. UGH! So frustrating.


----------



## Prissypeachcb

My BFF had this done with no prob


----------



## Blythe

Prissypeachcb said:


> My BFF had this done with no prob

What did you BFF have done?


----------



## Breaking Dawn

And....back to the start.

Bloodwork confirms BFN.

I honestly hate the call from the nurse...like I already know its a bfn from POAS.

I see the dr clinic number show up onmy phone...I answer....they ask is this "breaking Dawn?" Yes it is. Hi this is drs clinic and we have the results of your bloodtest this morning <insert one sec gap>. Unfortunatley......

and then I never pay attention to the rest!


----------



## gingmg

I don't even answer the phone anymore, I just let them leave a message and save us both an awkward conversation. Especially because I usually have already gotten AF the same morning as my blood tests and already know the results. I always wonder if they were calling with good news if would be able to tell before they even say it, would it be less rehearsed and more excited?


----------



## Juniperjules

Sorry breaking dawn. so deflating. sorry i cant remember cos im a bit sleep deprived- are u seeing an FS? was this an assisted cycle?? 

So girls, who else in here is on clomid? Blythe I can see that ur taking it. How many times have u used it? There's a limit of 6 times (cycles) or something right?

I'm wondering if the FS will start me on clomid as it seems to be the first line of treatment. My girlfriend took clomid for 3 cycles I think but it didn't help her & she moved on to IVF. Anyone know any stats/ facts & figures as to the success rates using clomid?? 

I'm a tad nervous about potentially using it bcos my aunty who is a gynae nurse told my friend to use it with caution a few years back.... I'm not sure whether her reasons were mostly anecdotal as opposed to specific reasons which are well known. I can't quite remember what she said, but it was based on her clinical experience in gynae. I might text her and ask her to remind me. Maybe it was just that u should only use it for a limited number of times... Will def text her & ask! 

Are there side effects & have u had any of them?


----------



## Jazzbird

Hey Melly

Just wanted to say that Chinese herbs are excellent for sperm issues. I'm an acupuncturist and it is well known that herbs can improve count, motility and morphology. It is also said that male infertility is much easier to treat than female infertility with Chinese medicine - but it is recommended that herbs are used instead of acupuncture.


----------



## Briss

either I am getting old or I lost my ability to hold a drink after being practically a nun for the last 3 years. these 3 gin tonics nearly killed me, I felt so bad yesterday, recovered only this morning 

Blythe, how's your AF? I actually think AF reflects what happened last cycle cos you are shedding off endometrium that you were building up during TWW, so even if AF is not great you may still have a good cycle and proper lining this cycle. Interestingly my AF is not as heavy as usual, no idea if it's good or bad. on the scan they said I had very good lining, it was 11.5 mm on CD20. maybe I usually have more than that cos I had only 1 heavy day this cycle. no clots this cycle so herbs are definitely working. 

I have another week of raw herbs and then I'll probably call it a day and move to IVF drugs. I wonder if I should stop vitamins as well except for coq10 for the IVF cycle. I do not want anything to interfere and spoil our chances. 

Melly, I cant agree more, it does look like even though female's issues may appear very complex they are in most cases possible to fix whereas low sperm count seems like end of the road. 

Jazzbird, my DH was on chinese herbs for several months but it did not really make any difference. it might be that him not eating well also had something to do with it though. the only thing that definitely made a difference is quitting beer. unfortunately he cant sustain this for long. I put him back on chinese herbs and will try to get Dr Zhai's prescription for him as well. as long as he continues with his beer I doubt herbs can make much difference though 

breaking dawn and gingmg, I can totally relate on not wanting to answer the call from the nurse. i do not have the exact experience but it's similar to testing. I stopped testing a while ago cos I just cant deal with bfn. once we do IVF, I doubt I will be able to break this and test, will most likely just wait for AF or hopefully no AF

Juniper, I think clomid is not for everyone. I have ovarian cysts and clomid was never an option for me, no FS ever even mentioned it


----------



## gingmg

Juniper- I took clomid for one cycle, no real side effects, some minor warm flushes, but I work nights and am usually frozen by 4 am when I start to get tired, so it actually felt nice. Other than that nothing. I plan on taking it again next cycle. It can thin your lining, but supposedly not till after a few cycles. If you have cysts, it probably isn't an option. Some people have mood swings with it.


----------



## Breaking Dawn

Ging....actually the nurse sounds much more excited when its a bfp.


Juniper...yes, I am seeing an FS. Tis I was IUI #4. I did previously take clomid but it thinned my lining...very common side effect...so I was taking femera this cycle .

When I did take clomid I used to take it at 8 pm so that i would sleep thri any side effects.....ie hot flashes headaches etc.


----------



## Jazzbird

Briss - I didn't realise your husband had been on herbs - since in some earlier posts you had said he wouldn't take them and doesn't believe in TCM.

With any treatment there are variations in response (TCM or Conventional Medicine or any other) - I can't comment on one patient's response without understanding the diagnosis, the herbs involved & their source/quality, length of time taken etc.

I do know from the research I have read and the experiences I have seen in practice that with the right diagnosis & the right prescription from a qualified practitioner, Chinese Herbs can and do increase motility, count & morphology - and I naturally feel a duty to pass on this knowledge to people who have been told by doctors that there is "nothing more they can do to improve sperm" - especially since this is an Acupuncture thread. Having said that, I do understand that it doesn't work for everyone - just as conventional medical drugs like clomid don't work for everyone. 

However, Melly - it is probably worth giving it a shot. If you do - please ensure you get a fully qualified practitioner who sources high quality herbs from a reputable source.


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## Briss

Jazzbird, you are right my DH does not believe in TCH but between Dec-May this year I was practically forcing him to take herbs twice a day (not every day), it was a nightmare cos he was convinced I was trying to poison him etc. He was on shengji ngguben wan which has amazing reviews. But then in May I made him go and see Dr Zhai, he was so disappointed in the whole thing (he believes her clinic is just a money making machine) that he just completely refused to continue with the herbs and there was nothing I could do. Now that we decided to go IVF route I am "blackmailing" him into taking herbs again cos we need his sperm to improve so we do not go for ICSI (it has higher risks than IVF) so I am now trying again to force him, he complains and argues but gives in in the end. we will see if it has any result. he is still on shengji ngguben wan but Dr Zhai's assistant said that although this is a good formula for him, we may need to modify it slightly to help with heat. My DH did all the necessary blood tests so I am going to send them to Dr Zhai tomorrow and hopefully she can prescribe the correct formula. I do not think I can pay for both of us, it's just so expensive so I will probably stop my herbs and start DH's


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## Briss

Attaching a picture of my raw herbs with the list, I do not know which one is which though 

baishaoyao
baizhu
bohe
chaihu
danggui
fuling
gancao
mudanpi
shanzhizi
xiakucao
tu fu ling
 



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## Blythe

Briss said:


> Attaching a picture of my raw herbs with the list, I do not know which one is which though
> 
> baishaoyao
> baizhu
> bohe
> chaihu
> danggui
> fuling
> gancao
> mudanpi
> shanzhizi
> xiakucao
> tu fu ling

Thats impressive. Is that for one day?


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## Briss

Blythe, yes that's a day's portion, I drink it twice a day. I compared it to what I had before and they look very similar I could only find one new type of herbs.


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## Blythe

Briss said:


> either I am getting old or I lost my ability to hold a drink after being practically a nun for the last 3 years. these 3 gin tonics nearly killed me, I felt so bad yesterday, recovered only this morning
> 
> Blythe, how's your AF? I actually think AF reflects what happened last cycle cos you are shedding off endometrium that you were building up during TWW, so even if AF is not great you may still have a good cycle and proper lining this cycle. Interestingly my AF is not as heavy as usual, no idea if it's good or bad. on the scan they said I had very good lining, it was 11.5 mm on CD20. maybe I usually have more than that cos I had only 1 heavy day this cycle. no clots this cycle so herbs are definitely working.
> 
> I have another week of raw herbs and then I'll probably call it a day and move to IVF drugs. I wonder if I should stop vitamins as well except for coq10 for the IVF cycle. I do not want anything to interfere and spoil our chances.
> 
> Melly, I cant agree more, it does look like even though female's issues may appear very complex they are in most cases possible to fix whereas low sperm count seems like end of the road.
> 
> Jazzbird, my DH was on chinese herbs for several months but it did not really make any difference. it might be that him not eating well also had something to do with it though. the only thing that definitely made a difference is quitting beer. unfortunately he cant sustain this for long. I put him back on chinese herbs and will try to get Dr Zhai's prescription for him as well. as long as he continues with his beer I doubt herbs can make much difference though
> 
> breaking dawn and gingmg, I can totally relate on not wanting to answer the call from the nurse. i do not have the exact experience but it's similar to testing. I stopped testing a while ago cos I just cant deal with bfn. once we do IVF, I doubt I will be able to break this and test, will most likely just wait for AF or hopefully no AF
> 
> Juniper, I think clomid is not for everyone. I have ovarian cysts and clomid was never an option for me, no FS ever even mentioned it


my AF is already saying goodbye and its CD4 but thats ok as i had such a heavy consistent bleed on CD2 that i reckon my lining must have been ok...CD3 was just a bit spotty too so thats only 2 days bleeding but one of them super heavy. the change is down to either age or just all these bleedin supplements ive been having for nearly 3 years!!

i took baby aspirin last month post ovulation and will look at taking it again this month...i have a couple of acu sessions left which i must book up but im stepping back from chinese herbs.

i might start doing some regular yoga poses to try and open my hips and get some blood flowing around my lower bits and also try and reduce stress. im finding work enormously stressful at the moment and constantly dreaming of a time i am not going to be there!

Those herbs look so lovely all laid out...its good to know you are in the hands of one of the most experienced fertility TCM practitioners in the UK and taking the most potent form of herbs....it MUST be doing something wonderful and getting everything ready for IT to happen.


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## Briss

Blythe, thanks as always you sound so encouraging!! although I cant help but question whether the herbs were really working, if so why did I get the new cyst? the cyst is a sign that things do not work properly and herbs are not helping. I curse the date I agreed to do the lap, ever since then my cycle got shorter and things just do not look ok on the right side, from the scan I can see that the right blood flow is much reduced compared to the left side, there are only two follicle on the right compared to 7 on the left and I do notice that I ovulate most of the time from my left ovary and maybe only every 3-4 time from my right, also if you recall my right zigong was always very painful, and again I have no idea whether needling right ovary was a good idea but in any even it did not improve anything. 

burned my herbs again this morning&#8230; I doubt I will continue with Dr Zhai but I really want my DH to take her herbs at least for a months before IVF. 

some of the herbs are really sticky and when you boil them they become almost oily, quite interesting 

4 day AF is not bad, mine is at least 6 days and all Chinese doc always say it's very long. but it's always been that way so I think it's normal for me. although this cycle there was definitely less coming out then usual. I get at least 4 days of bleeding and 2 super heavy, the remaining 2 is more like heavy spotting. 

It's great that you still have 2 acu sessions, maybe do one before O and another one 1-2 days after?

I need my motivation to do yoga this cycle as well. 

I met my uni friend yesterday, he is about my age and finally got a serious girlfriend who is in her 2 year of uni&#8230;. sometimes I wonder at men&#8230; it made me feel a bit sad and made me really want to move out of singleton world, I feel until I have children I am stuck


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## Blythe

ummm im not sure about the cyst. i don't know what causes them.

dont beat yourself up about that lap...you went into it like we all go into these things....with a hope that it might actually help. it seems baffling that since then your cycles have changed...i wonder what on earth altered the balance.

it would be great if your DH could try a month or two of Dr Z's herbs. Hows he doing with the beer? is he keeping his pint count down.

i must confess i ended up very drunk with my DH friday morning and we both drank long into the night...i feel so broken at the moment that i really needed to stop thinking and be a drunken fool for a while. we had good fun and i forgot for a few hours my heartbreak. i sound so dramatic sometimes but its become such a focus for me. ive held onto a job i want to leave because of the maternity benefits that i feel everything is hanging on me getting pregnant. if i had of had a clue it would have been like this i could have changed everything now and been in a much better place.

i so wish this clomid works but if not i will go to King's. i was going to go to create but i cannot pay all that money up front and not receive any of it back even if they dont proceed with EC....i think that is shocking...Briss - is this your understanding of how things go with them?


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## Briss

I am in a state of shock after seeing my GP today, I cant even talk about it, so upsetting, basically my family history of ovarian cancer is no joke. I am going to see a gyno who also specialises in cancer tomorrow. Although I have to say I do not think it's an issue at this point, but later in life once I had children I might have to follow Angelina Jolie's approach :( just so depressing. 

I spoke to my FS today, my results are also depressing, FSh got down to 8.9 but my Estradinol went up beyond any reason hence lower FSH this cycle (estrogen suppresses FSH). but i think it just means that I might be right and it might be my new cyst producing all this estrogen which probably means it's a factional cyst and it will go away on its own eventually. although that's not what my scan report says but I am hopeful. I used to have these factional cysts all the time, one grew to 8x9 cm! and disappeared completely after 3 months. I also feel them very often and last cycle right after O I could feel familiar pain in my left ovary. I think it was the cyst. if it's factional cyst that means we should wait for it to disappear before doing IVF. My GP apparently heard about prof Campbell who did my scan and also thought this must be a different type of cyst that's going to stay. but then they did not see my estrogen levels. very anxious to find out what the specialist thinks tomorrow. I am so tired of being constantly bombarded with bad news.

My FS said that despite my FSH result being practically invalid because we know they are affected by abnormally high estrogen she would still be prepared to refer me for IVf funding because formally she just needs FSH number which is now below upper level :) although she repeated that it's unlikely to help us as the ivf clinic will retest and if my fsh is still high i wont get the funding. 

Blythe, I think if no eggs is collected they do not refund anything unfortunately. what's King's refund policy?

My DH seems to be having 1-2 pints every other day now, sometimes I just feel like giving up on everything, i cant carry this weight, it's like everything is against me


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## Blythe

with kings it is 450 + cost of meds if no egg collection. i may have to contact Create about this because i think it entirely unfair that no costs are reimbursed if no egg collection.

im so sorry you have had to deal with so much new and depressing information lately...i hope your appointment went a little better today and you will have some clear advice about the best way to proceed and when would be the best time to embark on a round of ivf.


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## barbikins

Plenora said:


> Has anyone tried accupuncture and or herbs or known anyone that has and then got pregnant? Just going for my second session tomorrow night and really hoping it helps! Also taking disgusting tasting herbs twice a day. So far I've noticed improvement to my digestion and as I'm now at the midway point yesterday I had LOTS of EWCM. So much so I was shocked. Its never been so abundant. Its no magic pill I know as sperm still has to reach egg but I think it just helps to know I'm taking some sort of action and not just sitting around waiting!
> 
> Any positive stories out there?No negative stuff though I'm thinking that even if this works like a placebo then that'll do for me!

Hey Hun,

I am embarking on this journey too. I am meeting with an acupuncturist who specializes in Chinese Medicine too. Seeing as you posted this a year ago, did it not work for you?

Cheers!


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## Briss

Blythe, thanks! the doc sounded reassuring today but asked me to do tonnes of cancer related blood tests and MRI instead of a usual scan. he said it most likely going to be fine and prof Campbell at CREATE is as good as it gets apparently so I am in good hands. although his face changed when I mentioned chinese herbs :) I assured him that i go to a very reputable clinic etc but he did not look convinced at all. he also did not accept my idea that it was the cyst releasing extra estrogen, he thinks its the ovary itself but then he said he is not really a fertility specialist he only knows cancer. I was also relieved when he said that my aunt is considered to be a distant relation so they would not think her ovarian cancer has any connection to me. I am hoping we can get to the bottom of this issue by the end of this week and if all goes well i can book my appointment at CREATE next week.

I think it's worth asking about refunds at CREATE but I guess egg collection is costly so if it happens that no egg is collected because the follicle turns out to be empty (although it must be so unlikely to happen?) they want to be covered for the work they've done. my Dh also questioned this policy actually


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## Breaking Dawn

Hi ladies....

Just dropping in to say h!

Briss sooo sorry for the tough news.. I know how hard it is to stay positive but it will be worth it. :hugs:

Blythe...when are you thinking of doing ivf?

Barbikins...hey Hun...looks like we are on this journey together...always in the same topics/threads. I have not seen the original poster on here since I joined a few months ago.

It's mostly just a few of us...Briss and Blythe a know a lot on acu and Chinese herbs. We also have our very own (jazz bird) acupuncturist here as well.

I've learned a lot....glad you are here. When is your first appt? I see my acu this week as AF started today...so back to start of cycle.


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## Briss

Breaking dawn, sorry about AF but really hope this is going to be your lucky cycle. fingers crossed and lots of baby dust!

my BD strategy for this cycle is to try and save up some sperm for at least 4-5 days before BD on my first PEAK. Finish off my herbs and try and get my DH to take Dr Zhai's herbs. It's interesting that despite really high levels of estrogen my CBFM shows the same signs as always, gave me HIGh from CD7 and I expect to get PEAK on CD10 and o on CD 11. I thought high oestrogen would make some changes but it does not look that way. Once I had MRI and understand what my cyst is made of I will be able to make a decision whether to proceed with IVf next cycle or wait. Both my ovaries are very sensitive but it's usual for me at the start of the cycle, closer to O it will be just one ovary making its presence known, the other one will calm down. have been doing late nights at work again, very stressful time. trying to fit in all these doctors' appointments and blood tests, not an easy task. did not have any time to cook my herbs this week yet.


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## barbikins

Breaking Dawn, good to see you again :)

Well I went to the acupuncturist but she wants to address my digestive disorder first & she says we have to fix it first b/c it can impact my fertility. My digestive issue is an on going 'fixer upper' that I'm constantly addressing. But I feel bummed out that the Fertility is now a secondary issue for her. She wont give me Chinese Herbs until my gut's a bit better b/c she says it will cause me gas & so it's not comfortable.
I'll start acupuncture in two weeks b/c I'm off camping next week.


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## Briss

Barbikins, welcome! I think your doc might be right as until your digestive system works well and absorbs all the nutrients from your herbs it might be not very effective to try and treat fertility. My doc is treating my excess heat at the moment as she thinks that's the main issue and until it's fixed there is no point in doing anything else.


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## barbikins

Hi Briss,

I have the same thing, excess heat in my gut.
I agree it's probably right but still feels like I've got this 6 week road block you know?
AGhhhh!!!!

So do you have unexplained Infertility?


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## Blythe

Briss said:


> Blythe, thanks! the doc sounded reassuring today but asked me to do tonnes of cancer related blood tests and MRI instead of a usual scan. he said it most likely going to be fine and prof Campbell at CREATE is as good as it gets apparently so I am in good hands. although his face changed when I mentioned chinese herbs :) I assured him that i go to a very reputable clinic etc but he did not look convinced at all. he also did not accept my idea that it was the cyst releasing extra estrogen, he thinks its the ovary itself but then he said he is not really a fertility specialist he only knows cancer. I was also relieved when he said that my aunt is considered to be a distant relation so they would not think her ovarian cancer has any connection to me. I am hoping we can get to the bottom of this issue by the end of this week and if all goes well i can book my appointment at CREATE next week.
> 
> I think it's worth asking about refunds at CREATE but I guess egg collection is costly so if it happens that no egg is collected because the follicle turns out to be empty (although it must be so unlikely to happen?) they want to be covered for the work they've done. my Dh also questioned this policy actually

yes i suppose it is only the glands that make up our endocrine system that release hormones and not cysts although i expect its presence affects the ovaries ability to do what its meant too. 

B6 and magnesium can held get rid of excess oestrogen according to this:

https://voices.yahoo.com/is-estrogen-dominance-causing-hormonal-symptoms-7196562.html?cat=5

i hope work is not going to be so hardcore for much longer...those late nights would finish me off nowadays.


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## Blythe

Breaking Dawn said:


> Hi ladies....
> 
> Just dropping in to say h!
> 
> Briss sooo sorry for the tough news.. I know how hard it is to stay positive but it will be worth it. :hugs:
> 
> Blythe...when are you thinking of doing ivf?
> 
> Barbikins...hey Hun...looks like we are on this journey together...always in the same topics/threads. I have not seen the original poster on here since I joined a few months ago.
> 
> It's mostly just a few of us...Briss and Blythe a know a lot on acu and Chinese herbs. We also have our very own (jazz bird) acupuncturist here as well.
> 
> I've learned a lot....glad you are here. When is your first appt? I see my acu this week as AF started today...so back to start of cycle.


sorry for AF :flower:


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## Briss

Barbikins, I did not know you can have heat in a particular organ, I am not sure I think mine is just general basically everywhere 

Blythe, I am not an expert but I thought the cyst was a follicle which did not stop growing but did not release an egg, I think follicles release estrogen? so that's why I thought that this type of cysts also release estrogen. It will become clear once I had MRI. 

i started reading conception chronicles, quite funny I was laughing on the tube on my way home, the deal did not go through, everyone disappointed I am just happy i can go home at 7 :)


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## Blythe

I've just been nosing around and I'm not sure what i was on about :wacko: ignore me!!

Sorry about your deal but good news about getting out of there :thumbup: I'm watching celebrity masterchef thinking about what I can eat next! I have been juicing every morning but still snacking throughout day but the juice is making a difference to my skin which is so much better since ditching the dhea


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## Briss

Blythe said:


> B6 and magnesium can held get rid of excess oestrogen according to this:
> 
> https://voices.yahoo.com/is-estrogen-dominance-causing-hormonal-symptoms-7196562.html?cat=5

Blythe, thanks! that's very interesting apparently caffeine stimulates estrogen production, maybe the fact that i went back to having coffee on a daily basis had something to do with it but my estrogen is super high, previously it was between 180-200. last cycle it was 177 but this cycle it's 435! also interestingly estrogen went up after I lost weight, it's supposed to be the other way around, does not make sense


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## Briss

Blythe, well done on sticking with juicing! I squeeze 2 grapefruits every day and will try to do veg after O. I completely relaxed about food and eat all i want but 90% is good stuff, the only bad food is chocolate and coffee, I do not eat any processed food unless we go out and eat in a restaurant (you never know what you eat when you are out really). this cycle I got really bad acne on my chin, maybe it's estrogen?


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## Blythe

I drank so much coffee (large strong black filtered) this morning that I nearly threw up. I had to tip my 4th coffee away....I'm obsessed and cannot stop drinking it.....I almost feel like I'm purposely sabotaging my chances. What a total idiot I am at the moment!!


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## Briss

Blythe, I am with you on coffee, ever since I realised that giving it up does not really help me conceive, i am drinking it like there is no tomorrow, on some days my blood pressure goes up and I am all shaking but still cant stop, love the stuff so much!


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## Blythe

Briss said:


> Breaking dawn, sorry about AF but really hope this is going to be your lucky cycle. fingers crossed and lots of baby dust!
> 
> my BD strategy for this cycle is to try and save up some sperm for at least 4-5 days before BD on my first PEAK. Finish off my herbs and try and get my DH to take Dr Zhai's herbs. It's interesting that despite really high levels of estrogen my CBFM shows the same signs as always, gave me HIGh from CD7 and I expect to get PEAK on CD10 and o on CD 11. I thought high oestrogen would make some changes but it does not look that way. Once I had MRI and understand what my cyst is made of I will be able to make a decision whether to proceed with IVf next cycle or wait. Both my ovaries are very sensitive but it's usual for me at the start of the cycle, closer to O it will be just one ovary making its presence known, the other one will calm down. have been doing late nights at work again, very stressful time. trying to fit in all these doctors' appointments and blood tests, not an easy task. did not have any time to cook my herbs this week yet.

I meant to say I like your bd strategy. Mine is very similar. I never ovulate before cd 13 so I'm going to wait till I get a strong positive opk and then bd. I'm always getting really nervy around cd9 onwards and panicking about getting bd in that by the time ovulation occurrs we are both exhausted and it feels as if he has dried up in the release department!!


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## Breaking Dawn

barbikins said:


> Breaking Dawn, good to see you again :)
> 
> Well I went to the acupuncturist but she wants to address my digestive disorder first & she says we have to fix it first b/c it can impact my fertility. My digestive issue is an on going 'fixer upper' that I'm constantly addressing. But I feel bummed out that the Fertility is now a secondary issue for her. She wont give me Chinese Herbs until my gut's a bit better b/c she says it will cause me gas & so it's not comfortable.
> I'll start acupuncture in two weeks b/c I'm off camping next week.

I know it's tough to wait for un I do understand what she is saying. Since Chinese medicine is all about total health of your body and things like liver, gut kidneys impacts your fertility health in ways that western medicine does not look at it.

I hope this brings you to your bfp!


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## Breaking Dawn

Briss, blythe...

I am not a coffee drinker so I can't feel your addiction. But I am a huge tea drinker. So u do understand your addiction.


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## Briss

Blythe, we nearly BD this morning but then I was determined to stick to my strategy (poor hubby) so tomorrow it is (likely to get my PEAK). 

Breaking dawn, I love green tea, in fact I can only have coffee in the morning but after that I really want my tea, I rarely drink black tea though, it's usually a variety of herbs or green tea (I recently discovered Japanese green tea (quite different from chinese) it took me a while to get used to it but now I love it!)

I am annoyed beyond belief with Dr Zhai, it took me a while to get my Dh to do the bloods they requested and without which they refused to give him prescription, we paid 170 pounds for the SA and 50 for bloods! and now they tell me they want him to come for an appointment before they can issue the prescription, basically another 130 for appoint +10 a day for herbs! surely the herbs that help with sperm are well established and at the initial appointment she said he has excess heat. now they say 4 months past from the initial appointment so this is not valid. surely if after taking their herbs for 4 months I still have excess heat, he does as well? I was prepared to pay for his herbs but not another appointment and also it's impossible to get him to come any way. I feel cheated


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## Blythe

Breaking Dawn said:


> Briss, blythe...
> 
> I am not a coffee drinker so I can't feel your addiction. But I am a huge tea drinker. So u do understand your addiction.

oooo i love a cuppa too :) i was really good for a long long time and only drank jasmine and nettle tea.....im finding it difficult to get motivated again.


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## Blythe

Briss said:


> Blythe, we nearly BD this morning but then I was determined to stick to my strategy (poor hubby) so tomorrow it is (likely to get my PEAK).
> 
> Breaking dawn, I love green tea, in fact I can only have coffee in the morning but after that I really want my tea, I rarely drink black tea though, it's usually a variety of herbs or green tea (I recently discovered Japanese green tea (quite different from chinese) it took me a while to get used to it but now I love it!)
> 
> I am annoyed beyond belief with Dr Zhai, it took me a while to get my Dh to do the bloods they requested and without which they refused to give him prescription, we paid 170 pounds for the SA and 50 for bloods! and now they tell me they want him to come for an appointment before they can issue the prescription, basically another 130 for appoint +10 a day for herbs! surely the herbs that help with sperm are well established and at the initial appointment she said he has excess heat. now they say 4 months past from the initial appointment so this is not valid. surely if after taking their herbs for 4 months I still have excess heat, he does as well? I was prepared to pay for his herbs but not another appointment and also it's impossible to get him to come any way. I feel cheated


yes I'm not surprised after all the money you have already spent at the clinic. i would be inclined to pop this all down in an email and see what comes back, particularly that he was already given a diagnosis from Dr Z. i think as a matter of goodwill and customer service they should waiver the charges.


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## Briss

I asked dr Zhai again explaining my position but they refused to prescribe herbs without seeing him and refused to waive the charges for the appointment even though he does not need acu. It's just frustrating. they suggest he joins me for my next appointment but I am not sure I want to go there again

My blood results are not ready yet, am still due to book MRI for next week. 

Interestingly my high E2 did not stop me from getting my PEAk on CD10 as usual. strange I'd think such hormonal imbalance would somehow affect CBFM reading. 

am still to get DH to BD tonight, I've been collecting his sperm for 5 days now and was hoping we BD this morning but he was not in the mood, I told him he'd better get in the mood tonight and be at home and ready by 9 pm or else! I am so tired of this, I supposed it's easier for me cos my body is made to want sex around O (although last couple of cycles my sex drive was not that great, I blame the cyst)


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## melly2

Briss, I'm with you. I'm a hormonal nightmare lately. I was taking 50mg of Clomid as an experiment the last few months. They are my husband's Clomid for his sperm counts. Sure enough, I ovulated and could feel things stirring up down there. However, I heard Clomid can increase cysts, and I have a family history of this (my mom had her left ovary removed when she was 18 due to a cyst). So, this month I decided to not take it, and wouldn't you know...it appears that I'm not ovulating anytime soon, even though, according to the last few months, I should be around now. Seriously?!?!? This is like a no win situation. 

With all these issues stacked up against us, I'm actually not sad about it anymore. In fact, I'm probably more resigned than ever. Perhaps I'm just giving up in my mind, who knows. I barely remember to do my OPK tests as I keep thinking to myself, "what's the point". I'm seriously thinking about canceling my weekly acupuncture, because again, "what's the point"?

Sorry, I'm sorta a downer today, but again, I'm actually not sad....just resigned. I'm okay if we never have children, and I'm trying to talk my husband into being okay with it as well. He would love for me to do IVF, but I'm not too keen on the idea. I don't know...I'm just thinking about jumping ship on this whole idea.

To this point, perhaps it's further ignited by a recent article I read in Time magazine about "Childfree and Happy", or this article in Phycology Today: https://www.psychologytoday.com/blo...asons-childfree-adults-may-be-happier-parents
Which, I must admit, every point in that article I have thought about; even the remark about keeping my figure. Clearly my husband and I aren't quite seeing eye-to-eye on this, so in a weird way, I'm sorta relieved every month when I don't turn up pregnant. It's my gutt telling me something, I believe.


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## barbikins

Hey Melly,

I know all too well what you're feeling & I through my ups & downs feeling defeated.
I see you've been trying for a year...I would say at this point not to give up unless you've exhausted all options. Are you also doing TCM? I believe you can correct this.
I picked up this book about TMC & Acupuncture & I wonder if it can bring you some renewed hope.
https://www.amazon.ca/The-Infertility-Cure-Wellness-Pregnant/dp/0316159212

Also, do you normally Ovulate on your own or do you have a history of having anovulatory cycles?


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## melly2

barbikins said:


> Hey Melly,
> 
> I know all too well what you're feeling & I through my ups & downs feeling defeated.
> I see you've been trying for a year...I would say at this point not to give up unless you've exhausted all options. Are you also doing TCM? I believe you can correct this.
> I picked up this book about TMC & Acupuncture & I wonder if it can bring you some renewed hope.
> https://www.amazon.ca/The-Infertility-Cure-Wellness-Pregnant/dp/0316159212
> 
> Also, do you normally Ovulate on your own or do you have a history of having anovulatory cycles?

I do have a history of anovulatory cycles due to my excessive running and training for marathons. However, I have scaled back my running substantially, and they the cycles started back up about a year ago after a 3.5 year hiatus. They've been all over the place since starting back, however, the last few months I did have them down to 29 days, until this last cycle was 25 days. I am taking various herbs and do weekly acupuncture, but I the acupuncture really hasn't helped my cycle, from what I can tell. It actually was the clomid, I believe. I really don't want to take Clomid...I'm more into the all natural approach, if at all possible.


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## Briss

melly I am sorry you feel so down but I cant help but feel the same about our situation. "what's the point" is my most used phrase these days, whatever I did in the last few years did not bring me any closer to that ever elusive BFP. I continue doing what I can and I still hope but I do not think I believe we can get there naturally anymore. it may sound negative but I cant help but notice women who TTC for ages and then resigned to the idea of not having children somehow get pregnant, it's a paradox. my problem is that I simply cant resign and accept this and I have a feeling that until I do nothing is going to change, makes me even more depressed. I want to have children not because I think it will make me happy. I perfectly realise that my life is going to change and it's going to be much harder and it will stop being about me, but I've lived my life for me and I had enough, now I want to devote my life (what's left of it) to something that I consider the most important thing I can ever do. with that mind-set I have no idea how I can ever give up on the idea and relax&#8230; I am doomed 

barbikins, I agree Randine Lewis' book is probably one of the best books out there on fertility. we've read it and followed advice as best we could. I still refer to it from time, probably know it by heart by now


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## Briss

am considering ordering this for my DH https://www.mcssl.com/SecureCart/Vi...token=ffe3ba8c1e204e4aa0de76aa577d522a&bhcp=1 since dr Zhai is no help am thinking of some standard male formula and what's better place than Randine Lewis'. shame there is no list of ingredients, would really want to know what's it made of

also thinking about doing Spleen Qi Diet - no sugar or dairy for a few weeks (I do not think i can do the whole month of no sugar, still remember my sufferings back in May, it's just too cruel) https://thefertilesoul.com/Nutrition/?p=40


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## Jazzbird

Hi Briss

Sorry you are feeling so let down with Dr Zhai. I wouldn't advise taking a standard formula off the web. For one that is for yang deficiency which is warming in nature. If your husband has heat - I would imagine he'll need a bespoke prescription probably to clear heat. There are other practitioners around and if you're in London I'd go to one of the student clinics in London - eg the one that is being set up by Middlesex uni in Hendon:

https://www.mdx.ac.uk/pg-comphealth

I'd imagine in London you will pay at least £60 for an initial consultation and £50 for follow up consultations in london (I think £130 is excessive) probably much less at a student clinic. dried herbs are pricey and I think £10 per day is about right for London. Powdered herbs are much cheaper.

Chinese herbs can be very potent and there are so many possible prescriptions. It takes 5 years to train in herbs. It's dangerous to buy herbs off the Internet from unregulated sources and the government is desperately trying to stop it. You have no idea whether you are buying something genuine. Apparently some class A drugs were found in one high street herbal retailer.


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## Mellymel

This post caught my eye because my sister is a doctor if TCM and has been for years. She always says that you have to have a full initial consultation for her to help fully. She also says that you can be deficient in one area and that this can impact so many other things. 

I haven't Been able to read all 152 pages but thought I'd just say she feels that TCM can help with pregnancy,etc. keep your heads up and keep trying. 

When I finally find the right moment to tell her about my recent mc I do plan on asking her for advice.


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## Briss

am going through really tough time at the moment, one of my cancer tests came elevated, obviously did my goodle search and it actually does not sound too bad, it appears that CA 125 can give false positive results in certain benign conditions. I am hoping that explains it. but then again this came from my tests with cancer doc and he actually send me a letter saying he considers the results negative but we do need to do MRI and some further bloods. While my GP did not even give me the results I was told he wants to talk to me first &#8211; never a good thing when they want to talk to you. have been waiting for GP to call me for what seems like eternity. I have no idea what more bad news my GP has for me, I am hoping he wants to discuss elevated CA125 which I already convinced myself not conclusive. 

I am beginning to think that there is something very wrong with me because one person cant be constantly getting bad news for years and the situation is just getting from bad to worse with no prospects. It cant be happening, I have misery to spread among at least 10 people&#8230; feeling so very sorry for myself and trying to pull myself together as GP can call any minute, must be strong 

Jazzbird, thanks. I am not sure why I just never got this good feeling about Dr Zhai, with all her brilliant credentials and reviews I had doubts from the first moment I saw her and the doubt never left me. I tried to convince myself that if anyone can help us it would be her cos she is the best but deep down I did not have the trust, she is just too commercial and you cant help but feel it's all about making money. I remember how I was excited last October when I found a Chinese doctor I could trust and I started going for weekly acupuncture and taking herbs, I completely believed I will be pregnant in no time&#8230; I've been through 3 Chinese doctors now and I think I was in better shape before I embarked on this TCM journey. Everywhere I look there is always someone who started doing acupuncture after years of TTC and suddenly after 3-4 months they get pregnant. that never happened to me, there only positive changes I saw is no clots and slight improvement in energy levels. however, the negatives that I developed over the last year outweigh any positives: cycle is still short &#8211; O early; spotting after AF; FSH is higher then ever, ovarian cysts etc maybe TCM just does not work for me. Once I finish my raw herbs (I have a few more days) I think I am going to call it a day. having said that I would still like my DH to take the herbs for him sperm count. I may go back to my very first Chinese doc (who left me all bruised after her treatment, something to do with eliminating excess heat), it just happened that when I was taking her herbs I never had short cycles so maybe she is the only one who it right. 

Mellymel, welcome! it would be very interesting if you could share your sister's insight into TCM. I have heard that TCM can help to stop mc. have you ever tried it?


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## Juniperjules

Oh Briss I have my heart in my mouth reading ur post. I don't know wot to say except that I am praying that this all turns out to be nothing. It's def positive that the specialists letter seems to indicate that there's nothing to be concerned about. I just wanted to reach into the computer & give u a huge hug : ( 

I hope ur not dealing with this alone?? of course u have ur DH, but I hope u also have either mother/sister/girlfriends that u can lean on. At times like this u really need the emotional support. Even if ur results all turn out good, you've definitely been thru the ringer lately. 

I truly hope things start to turn around for you soon. Am sending u positive vibes from right around the world, hang in there hon x


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## Briss

GP Called finally and as I expected it was about CA125 which were even higher, well above normal levels, luckily I was prepared for this conversation and did not freak out. he thought I was already going through IVF that's why it was so high (meds affecting it) so he suggested I talk to my FS. I have not even started my IVF yet but I did not tell him that. I think (hope) it's the cyst affecting the results and gives false positive. I read somewhere that even menstruation can give you false positive and I was on CD3 when I did the test. why nobody warns you about these things I have no idea. anyway, I am trying to stay positive after all it's "old ladies disease", women do usually get it after menopause. and I thought LTTTC was heart breaking,.. just when you think it cant get any worse something happens that takes you to a whole new level of misery&#8230;

also, just to make me feel more miserable when I was dealing with these blood results last night trying to stay positive, in the midst of this nightmare I received an invitation for a baby shower (obviously from a good friend who started TTC a few years after me), that's just sadistic, someone up there is checking how much misery can a human being take at any given moment in time, cant find any other reasonable explanation for this, cant be just a coincidence


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## Jazzbird

Briss ... I'm so sorry. I don't know what to say except we are all supporting you virtually & I hope you have a good network of supportive people who you can see face to face. 

I completely understand your frustration with TCM - sadly the quality varies dramatically between practitioners. And like any treatment it doesn't always work for everyone. Listen to your gut - you've never sounded positive about dr Zhai and I personally think the consultation rates are far too high. You've tried different practitioners so I would definitely knock it on the head. 

We are all thinking of you. Xxx


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## Jazzbird

Ps I'm trying a yoga 4 fertility DVD. I've done it 3 days in a row and have felt an increase in libido on cd5!!!! This is quite a change for me - I only experience libido around ovulation. So perhaps yoga is stirring up the energy in my loins ;-) (sorry tmi!)


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## Blythe

Briss. I'm sorry my friend. You are definitely having a horrible time of it all. We are always here for you to share/vent. 

I think you are an Enormously strong character and I'm so sorry you are being tested in this way. Surely ltttc is hard enough to deal with alone and the test resulys and invitation would push most of us to the edge. 

I so hope that your doctor will be able soon to put your mind at ease. 

:hugs:


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## Briss

Thank you ladies! so far it's just my mum and Dh that knows about this, and obviously you ladies, tbh I cant talk about it to anyone, it's just too much, I can barely hold it together at the moment and I feel if I have to talk to smb I will just fall apart. My mum is my greatest support, DH is trying but he's completely useless at these things and does all the wrong thing. I am just going from one blood test to another, scheduled MRI for Friday and hoping it will make things clear


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## Breaking Dawn

Briss....:hugs: sorry to hear that things are getting harder rather then easier. I hope you have some good news coming your way soon. Sending you big hugs!


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## melly2

Hi Briss,

I'm thinking of you and praying that everything turns out well. As being someone who used to work at a pathology lab I can say, you can definitely get false positives from that test. You mentioned an MRI, do have that scheduled? I know it feels impossible to stay positive, especially with the endless bad news -- there are simply no good words of wisdom to share at this point, just know that we are all thinking about you and are here to listen.


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## Blythe

I feel I cannot be bothered anymore. I think I ovulated last night but had not picked up a positive opk yet.....I got a smily face this morning yet still a negative in the ic so my surge could have started ages ago and I've just caught the tail end of it. I had ovulation type pains last night but have but bd for a few days and just could not be bothered. I'm usually manic around now. We will bd tonight. 

I'm going to leave Acu and herbs for a while possible for good. It's made no real difference other than cleaning me out financially. After a year and half if it and various practitioners I must have spent many hundreds of pounds.


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## Briss

Blythe, your cycle is so regular, perfect almost I think you can safely assume you will ovulate between CD 12-15, most likely CD 13-14 so if you just BD on these days you will be covered. I was doing OPK together with CBFM at one point and sometimes they would give me + on different days, it was a nightmare trying to figure out which one is correct. based on my temp CBFM is usually more accurate, OPK can sometimes give you a positive only after O, very frustrating but after lap my CBFM could not pick my LH surge for 2 cycles and at this time OPK were at least giving me some kind of faint second line indicating that O is approaching which was more helpful then just getting HIGH 10 days in a row. I continue with my CBFM cos I (naively) hope I will start ovulating later and do not want to miss it. also for IVF, if we go with completely natural IVF I need to be certain what's going on with my cycle. 

ovulation type pains are so misleading, I sometimes get them before O, it might be something to do with me having cysts or it might be that I grow more follicles (wishful thinking) and ovaries get more sensitive as they increase in size. last couple of cycles I have ovulation type pains starting from O and going into TWW. It's 5 DPO and both my ovaries are still very sensitive, it's probably the cysts but who knows. 

Am very scared of MRI, I know it's very unlikely I am pregnant but who knows it might be that I finally get an embryo flying around my uterus trying to implant, really concerned about doing this procedure in TWW. also not yet clear whether they are going to use some dye to get a clearer picture of the cyst which is a no in pregnant women. 

I am with you on Acu and herbs, I am not very concerned about financial aspect (although obviously Dr Zhai's prices are breath-taking and when I think what it cost me (health wise) to earn this money it just adds to my general frustration with life but it would be nothing if her herbs worked and I could see some improvement) but the fact it did not improve things but more than that my condition got worse and I cannot know for sure whether these herbs just did not have any effect and my body continues to deteriorate on its own or whether it's the herbs that are pushing my body in that direction. It's disappointing after spending so much time on research and reading book after book on basic principals of TCM and researching all the herbs etc it all comes to nothing 

I am still thinking whether I should try Zita West before quitting it completely. maybe if all goes well with my cyst and I will do my IVF next cycle, in case it wont work I may consider going to Zita West for acu (but not herbs!) before going for the second IVF. I know that TCM is based on herbs and acu is not considered as important as herbs but I do feel that our local practitioners (even the best ones) are not quite there at providing the right prescriptions or maybe we do not get the right quality of herbs over here, I do not know what the problem is but it seems like acu (although less effective then herbs) is less likely to do you more harm than good. although I still remember the weekly pain of my right zigong&#8230;. 

Blythe, please do not disappear from this thread cos I really want to know how you are doing and hopefully be among the first to congratulate you on your BFP which I feel is going to happen very soon. Definitely try and get some BD today and tomorrow just to cover all the basis


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## gingmg

Briss- I hope your scan gives you good news and mental relief.
Got some fresh royal jelly, Yuck!


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## Briss

stupid stupid Briss, I actually did a pregnancy test this morning, obviously BFN (too early just 6 DPO and also our chances are miniscule) and I knew it but was so scared of MRI effecting my imaginary embryo that I thought in case by some unbelievable luck I get a BFP I'd cancel the MRI scan &#8230; I cried and feel defeated, hate these tests, no idea why but it feels like a punch in the face every time

I have one last pack of raw herbs for tonight and tomorrow morning and then I am done.

There was this programme on BBC about new developments in cancer research (I've suddenly become so interested in this topic&#8230;.) and they showed how ovarian cancer looks &#8211; like grapes. there was some breakthrough so in the next few years they will be able to identify what causes various types of cancer (like smoking and lung cancer; getting a tan and skin cancer etc). 

melly, this is so reassuring to hear that false positives are common. that's my only hope at the moment because if one test came as borderline the other one was definitely positive. thank you for your kind words!! I am going for my MRI scan later today but I probably wont know the results until I see my doc next week. 

gingmg, how much of fresh royal jelly do you take? I feel like I take so little that there is nothing even to swallow


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## Blythe

Briss. I hope today goes smoothly and of course please report back next week after your consult with doc. 

Thank you so much for your words the other day. I will defo stay on this thread as I want to know what is going in with you ladies. I'm just totally defeated at the moment :(

I bd'd last night after nagging DH to death and now not talking. I was thinking of leaving him last night, in fact those very thoughts were going through my mind during dtd! My temps have gone up over last two days and I suspect I will get my red lines tomorrow but getting strong feelings in ovaries/uterus. Who bloody knows what goes on down there. I wish I could be fitted up to a mobile scanner over the ovulation period to see if temp rises/opks correlate with what's going on inside!!!


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## Briss

I did not do my MRI scan. my doc told me it was OK to do it even if pregnant but apparently not. When I mentioned that I am TTC and post O so might be pregnant I was told to take a pregnancy test (not again!!) to confirm I am not pregnant because they simply wont do MRI if it comes back positive. although I told them I tested in the morning and it was negative but I am only 6 DPO and I was told that in this case it's up to me whether I was to take this risk. Obviously I rescheduled my MRi to a later date once I get my period because if I turn out to be pregnant (I mean it's highly unlikely but knowing my twisted luck I wont be surprised) the last thing you want is to worry how MRI may affect the pregnancy. better safe than sorry. also, I just thought if the hospital would not do the test without specifically saying what the risks are it just means that there are some potential risks but they are not yet official but the mere fact they want to protect themselves from such liability by not doing the scan in the first 12 weeks should be considered as a confirmation that it is not safe. Obviously now that I did not do the scan I can relax cos I am 100% sure it's not the month. A bit annoying cos it probably means we wont be able to start IVF next cycle but on the other hand I was always told that it's best to look at cysts before O cos after O there may be all sorts of things coming out that will not provide an accurate picture of how things are (same for breast examination, it's only done up to CD10). Also judging by the sensitivity of my ovary I think the cyst might have increased but it may as well disappear the next cycle. so basically it's more waiting around for me. 

and of cause to add to my misery the lady who was dealing with my MRI adventures today had a very healthy looking bump&#8230; (the irony!)

Blythe, am very sorry your DH is not co-operating. leaving him may not be a bad idea cos last time you tried it you got pregnant! I am constantly thinking about leaving my DH, even now when I am going through cancer checks he enjoys himself every night and drinks beer and obviously did not even ask me how my MRI went. the only thing that stops me is that I need sperm and I know his sample leaves much to be desired I'd rather use his than some random bloke's (never say never I may get there soon). I think you ovulated probably yesterday or the day before, I mean even when we get cross hairs it's still not 100% certain that they got the day right you can only tell that it's somewhere around this day. the most important thing is that you did BD!


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## gingmg

Briss- I take 1/4 teaspoon- and almost gag doing it. Maybe I should add it to my shakes, because even though it's such a little amount, it's so gross. I liked the kind in honey better.


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## Briss

gingmg, I am sure it tastes nicer in honey but it's hard to know how much of royal jelly in there, at least when you take it on its own you know what you are taking. although i quite agree it tastes so yucky. I am still not sure whether it works for women as well as it does for bees ...


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## Juniperjules

Hi girls, Briss at least u have peace of mind if u hang off on the MRI. Better to b safe than sorry for sure. 

Blythe, I've def been where u are. When I'm having low days or feeling frustrated with my OH, I def consider leaving him. Infact last month after a crappy day I lay in bed that nite really seriously thinking about how nice it would be to walk away from all the hassles. It felt like it it would b such a relief. But then I also started thinking about how it would most likely mean the end of my chance to have children. I also had to keep trying to remind myself of all the positives (which is tough when ur in a negative mood). Things have been very up & down with OH & me over the last 2 years- but right now things are pretty good. Sometimes though its easy for me to get caught up ruminating over past issues when the ttc stuff is getting to me. I guess my point is that sometimes leaving is the best option, but when ttc& going thru all these dramas its easy to lose perspective too iykwim?? I hope thing feel better after a day or two?

I've thought about taking royal jelly, but dunno if I can b bothered with taking ANOTHER thing. I already take the pre natal, 4 of the Ubiquinol, 2 Vit D, 2 vitamin E 1 flaxseed, & then 1 EPO until ovulation.. remembering to take the 11 tablets I'm already taking is bad enough. I'm trying to take half early in the day & half at nite bcos taking then all together gives me the runs!! (Sorry, TMI!!) 

So today I'm 11Dpo. At least I thought I was. I missed seeing a + OPK this month purely bcos I ran out of OPKs & missed cd 13 which is when I'd usually get a smiley. I did the day before & the day after & no smiley... so I took an educated guess that my + was on cd13. But today I've got some spotting & AF shouldn't b due for another 3 days. Only time I've EVER had spotting was exactly one year ago in Aug 2012. So weird it's happening again in August! Last time AF arrived the next day.. So now I'm expecting AF to arrive tomoro. I keep thinking I feel cramping but it could b in my head. I've been to the loo on my ward (am at work) probably 10 times since 7am checking wots going on... Madness.. Am Not gonna allow myself to b upset if AF arrives early. at least were on the move with IVF now. 

Actually am starting to feel a bit panicked about it all... But I'm guessing that's normal pre-IVF jitters. Do u guys feel like ur basically kind of constantly anxious? I feel like while ttc I've got this constant underlying anxiety present.. My nerves always just a bit on edge, I snap easily at lovely people who don't deserve it, like my parents- my patience is very short & my tolerance levels very low. I really hate it. I mean I'm not in a bad mood constantly, but there's definitely always some level of stress that I'm aware of now. Theres always something else to worry about.. will AF come or be late? will various blood tests, u/sounds/ HSG be ok? what will the next/ new doctor or specialist say? will my OH behave himself at our IVF counselling session on monday or will he start saying stupid stuff purely bcos he's uncomfortable? will i even b able to drag him out if bed to get him to the appt on time? (hes a musician & keeps funny hours), or will he wake up with a migraine & ill have to plead with him to go anyway (in pain!) bcos missing that appt will throw everything out of whack?? Then will i be able to get him to the other side of town by 1030 on the day of his SA? and ive started counting up all the money i need in the next few months.... arrrrrgh!! Wish I could stop thinking about it all. Think I need to start practising mindfulness or doing yoga again.. 

Sorry for the lengthy rant..


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## Blythe

Juniperjules said:


> Hi girls, Briss at least u have peace of mind if u hang off on the MRI. Better to b safe than sorry for sure.
> 
> Blythe, I've def been where u are. When I'm having low days or feeling frustrated with my OH, I def consider leaving him. Infact last month after a crappy day I lay in bed that nite really seriously thinking about how nice it would be to walk away from all the hassles. It felt like it it would b such a relief. But then I also started thinking about how it would most likely mean the end of my chance to have children. I also had to keep trying to remind myself of all the positives (which is tough when ur in a negative mood). Things have been very up & down with OH & me over the last 2 years- but right now things are pretty good. Sometimes though its easy for me to get caught up ruminating over past issues when the ttc stuff is getting to me. I guess my point is that sometimes leaving is the best option, but when ttc& going thru all these dramas its easy to lose perspective too iykwim?? I hope thing feel better after a day or two?
> 
> I've thought about taking royal jelly, but dunno if I can b bothered with taking ANOTHER thing. I already take the pre natal, 4 of the Ubiquinol, 2 Vit D, 2 vitamin E 1 flaxseed, & then 1 EPO until ovulation.. remembering to take the 11 tablets I'm already taking is bad enough. I'm trying to take half early in the day & half at nite bcos taking then all together gives me the runs!! (Sorry, TMI!!)
> 
> So today I'm 11Dpo. At least I thought I was. I missed seeing a + OPK this month purely bcos I ran out of OPKs & missed cd 13 which is when I'd usually get a smiley. I did the day before & the day after & no smiley... so I took an educated guess that my + was on cd13. But today I've got some spotting & AF shouldn't b due for another 3 days. Only time I've EVER had spotting was exactly one year ago in Aug 2012. So weird it's happening again in August! Last time AF arrived the next day.. So now I'm expecting AF to arrive tomoro. I keep thinking I feel cramping but it could b in my head. I've been to the loo on my ward (am at work) probably 10 times since 7am checking wots going on... Madness.. Am Not gonna allow myself to b upset if AF arrives early. at least were on the move with IVF now.
> 
> Actually am starting to feel a bit panicked about it all... But I'm guessing that's normal pre-IVF jitters. Do u guys feel like ur basically kind of constantly anxious? I feel like while ttc I've got this constant underlying anxiety present.. My nerves always just a bit on edge, I snap easily at lovely people who don't deserve it, like my parents- my patience is very short & my tolerance levels very low. I really hate it. I mean I'm not in a bad mood constantly, but there's definitely always some level of stress that I'm aware of now. Theres always something else to worry about.. will AF come or be late? will various blood tests, u/sounds/ HSG be ok? what will the next/ new doctor or specialist say? will my OH behave himself at our IVF counselling session on monday or will he start saying stupid stuff purely bcos he's uncomfortable? will i even b able to drag him out if bed to get him to the appt on time? (hes a musician & keeps funny hours), or will he wake up with a migraine & ill have to plead with him to go anyway (in pain!) bcos missing that appt will throw everything out of whack?? Then will i be able to get him to the other side of town by 1030 on the day of his SA? and ive started counting up all the money i need in the next few months.... arrrrrgh!! Wish I could stop thinking about it all. Think I need to start practising mindfulness or doing yoga again..
> 
> Sorry for the lengthy rant..

TTC is enormously stressful and it effects every element of my life. I think yoga sounds like a very good idea....even setting aside 5 mins a day to breath deeply can help. i was doing fertility yoga for a while and the acu/herbs etc and I've stopped it all. i have no clue if there is one thing i have done in the past 2.5-3 years thats has made a jot of difference or if it has just contributed to the general level of obsession i reached in recent months.

i was reading another thread recently and the woman suggested to just 'give up' and 'don't obsess too much'. No shit sherlock!! we all know these little pearls of wisdom...its one thing knowing and its quite another applying it. With all my heart i would love not to give a shit and just relax about the whole process....I'm exhausted and near breaking point. 

Back to the yoga though i am thinking of going back to some classes but just normal yoga not specialising in fertility. Anything to help stretch out and calm my mind would be great for me now. in fact i will make some enquiries today and see whats local.

im thinking i BD 3 days before and 1 day after ovulation this month so not so great! We could have done it the day before but i simply could not muster the energy to lay flat on my back...i didn't even want too. i feel like me and infertility are in battle together and now i feel like rolling over and telling them that they have won! ....go on then have your barren uterus im no longer interested!!!!!

like you i missed a clear positive on my opks....i got a new ebay supplier for sticks and they failed to give a clear positive but i picked up the end of the surge with my smiley face opks which i found lurking at the back of a cupboard. 

Im sorry you are spotting already but it could be something good also...it would be incredible to read of a BFP on this thread.

i think it would be weird if you didn't have IVF jitters...i was really up for IVF earlier this year and on my birthday went to docs for a referral but I've just left it and have not followed up. i have one more month of clomid then i will reassess. 

i hope the appt goes well and please report back on what they asked you etc and how you felt afterwards.

ps - is your DH in a band?


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## Blythe

Briss said:


> I did not do my MRI scan. my doc told me it was OK to do it even if pregnant but apparently not. When I mentioned that I am TTC and post O so might be pregnant I was told to take a pregnancy test (not again!!) to confirm I am not pregnant because they simply wont do MRI if it comes back positive. although I told them I tested in the morning and it was negative but I am only 6 DPO and I was told that in this case it's up to me whether I was to take this risk. Obviously I rescheduled my MRi to a later date once I get my period because if I turn out to be pregnant (I mean it's highly unlikely but knowing my twisted luck I wont be surprised) the last thing you want is to worry how MRI may affect the pregnancy. better safe than sorry. also, I just thought if the hospital would not do the test without specifically saying what the risks are it just means that there are some potential risks but they are not yet official but the mere fact they want to protect themselves from such liability by not doing the scan in the first 12 weeks should be considered as a confirmation that it is not safe. Obviously now that I did not do the scan I can relax cos I am 100% sure it's not the month. A bit annoying cos it probably means we wont be able to start IVF next cycle but on the other hand I was always told that it's best to look at cysts before O cos after O there may be all sorts of things coming out that will not provide an accurate picture of how things are (same for breast examination, it's only done up to CD10). Also judging by the sensitivity of my ovary I think the cyst might have increased but it may as well disappear the next cycle. so basically it's more waiting around for me.
> 
> and of cause to add to my misery the lady who was dealing with my MRI adventures today had a very healthy looking bump (the irony!)
> 
> Blythe, am very sorry your DH is not co-operating. leaving him may not be a bad idea cos last time you tried it you got pregnant! I am constantly thinking about leaving my DH, even now when I am going through cancer checks he enjoys himself every night and drinks beer and obviously did not even ask me how my MRI went. the only thing that stops me is that I need sperm and I know his sample leaves much to be desired I'd rather use his than some random bloke's (never say never I may get there soon). I think you ovulated probably yesterday or the day before, I mean even when we get cross hairs it's still not 100% certain that they got the day right you can only tell that it's somewhere around this day. the most important thing is that you did BD!

i think you certainly made the right decision....clearly it means more waiting but this seems to be a skill we have all mastered by now. Your first IVF round [if required] will happen at the right time for you and not before....you want to go into it with as few concerns as possible.


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## Briss

Juniper, I am so hoping it was not just pre-AF spotting but rather implantation spotting :) 11 DPO is about right. keep my fingers crossed AF stays away and this is it for you. i think we can all relate to being constantly stressed and worrying too much about everything but how else can we get all this stuff done, do our research find the relevant practitioners etc etc and also carry on with our daily jobs. I started a new thread on Yoga cos I cant motivate myself to do it on my own and need help but I think it's really important to manage our stress levels as this is certainly contributing to our success.


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## Briss

Blythe, I also think I made the right decision but my DH disagrees, he thinks we do not have any chances to get pregnant this cycle, cancer on the other hand is serious I should have gone through with MRI to make sure we rule it our asap :( on top of that my cancer doc will be on holiday so the earliest I can see him to discuss the results is 8 September, so much more waiting around


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## Juniperjules

Blythe, yep OH is in a band. I sing too & we also do duo gigs together separate to wot he does with the band. 

On the topic of yoga, the only yoga I've ever done & would love to do again was hot yoga (basically bikram but wasn't called that). I completely loved it. I found it so relaxing, challenging & cleansing. But the TCM lady I was seeing last year told me to stop when ttc. She basically told me not to do anything that forced my body to 'concentrate' on anything else except ttc. She said it was too taxing on the body. She basically gave me the impression that even eating foods that cause any probs with my digestion should be avoided bcos it would kind of distract my body from the ttc bcos it would be putting too much energy into dealing with the other 'problems'. Kind of made sense to me. Might be crap but it seemed plausible!

I told my best friend today about the IVF. She's amazeballs! She's my surrogate sister while my sister isn't here, & she's almost a midwife so her support will b invaluable I think. She had 3 kids in 6 years so has no idea wot this all feels like, but she's positive & excited for us, & that's pretty important too right now. 

Briss, ur DH's reaction is normal. He's putting u first. But I guess even b4 being pregnant us girls have a maternal instinct that kicks in that tells us that even a 'possible' baby is worth protecting & taking some risk for. 

Thanks for the hopeful thoughts girls, spotting seems to have stopped. Will b interesting to see wot happens tomoro.


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## Juniperjules

Me again.. No spotting g overnite but have had more today. Def seems like AF spotting. And have those niggley little twinges. 

I know I'm stating the absolute bleeding obvious girls. But on a day like today when I know AF isn't far away, I start to just think that maybe even IVF will b a waste of time & money.... That its just not ever likely to actually happen.. Again I think maybe this is part of the IVF panic.. Now that it's real it hit you like a ton of bricks.. & everything feels pointless & like ur just going to be even more disappointed & upset when it doesn't work...


----------



## Blythe

Juniperjules said:


> Me again.. No spotting g overnite but have had more today. Def seems like AF spotting. And have those niggley little twinges.
> 
> I know I'm stating the absolute bleeding obvious girls. But on a day like today when I know AF isn't far away, I start to just think that maybe even IVF will b a waste of time & money.... That its just not ever likely to actually happen.. Again I think maybe this is part of the IVF panic.. Now that it's real it hit you like a ton of bricks.. & everything feels pointless & like ur just going to be even more disappointed & upset when it doesn't work...

im sorry Juniperjules....its so so hard.....a few of us are going through a bit of a 'whats the bleeding point' phase. I remember those first few months when i used to test all the time from CD10 and the anticipation of a possible BFP. i now cannot imagine ever seeing those two lines - it seems like an impossible feat for me to achieve. BUT time and time again girls in exactly the same situation and others who have been trying for longer/are older ARE getting pregnant and having babies.

IVF terrifies me and if im honest i have put it off because im not sure how i would handle a failed round. for us as a couple it takes us at least one year to save 5K, the amount required for one round. we do have savings [not much] but that is for a mortgage next year. if i was younger i would put it off but once i get the mortgage it means i can leave my job and change our lives and get out of the city. obviously there is the emotional investment in IVF but right now the thing that im not sure i could handle is reconciling spending a substantial part of our deposit on something which will probably fail [based on stats for girls of my age/stats]. so i suppose thats what scares me most - the fact we would only be able to do one round and the pressure. IVF has always been THE back up plan and i fear going ahead without another back up plan...

BUT without being too pessimistic [what me!!] IVF DOES increase chances of achieving pregnancy and i would imagine give you heaps of info about whats going on inside. i regularly read the ivf threads and see so many success stories that its just plain exciting. Practicalities aside, the thought of being told i am pregnant with twins makes me very happy so another good reason to give it a go [for me].

:hugs: keep on going - you will get there.


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## Briss

Blythe, you have this amazing ability to say the right thing that makes me hopeful and positive again. I do not how you do it but I am so glad you do! 

Ladies I am totally with you on the hopelessness of this situation. when my DH the other day pointed out that I should have proceeded with MRI, it upset me because I actually realised that he does not believe any more we can get pregnant naturally. and he has not been in this process for as long as I have. am I being irrational for hoping for so long? Last few years I've been saving money for mortgage deposit but now I do not care if we never have a house I only care about having a child. I am still hoping that DH will pay for IVF but if not I will definitely use the mortgage deposit money. but then it's easier for me to say that because we do not have any children yet so it's just my and DH's welfare that I am risking. At the moment I am putting all my hopes into IVF but I do realise that with my stats we may need more than one go at it before we are successful. I also agree that going through IVF may reveal the real reason we could not conceive for so long and this scares me a lot!

yesterday I was even considering going to the witches and asking for spells... I think 21 August is a full moon and they do their most powerful spell then, but my mum talked me out of it. she actually believes in this stuff but she thinks that people practicing it may not always do it right and it may result in something you do not want so better not play with this stuff. It's funny that my choices at the moment vary between IVF and witchcraft.... 

I am officially done with herbs! yesterday cooked my last pack of raw herbs, feel kind of relieved. I started yoga again yesterday. just doing some fertility poses from the book. they split them into groups depending where you are in your cycle which is great and they start with easy ones so I can follow. will try to do some more today.


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## barbikins

Blythe, I read you post about how you've spent all this time doing everything you could do & maybe its best to do nothing....
I feel that way too. I'm getting there. I'm still taking a bunch of vitamins & trying a new acupuncturist & trying Chinese Medicine for the first time....but after this if nothing works, I AM DONE!!!
I got pregnant once not being aware of anything I was doing, eating, drinking, sleeping .....anything. I've also become obsessive to find the next best fertility supplement or practice. It's a lot of time & money & stress & for what? 1.5 years later, NOTHING. 
I hope some thing comes of all this for you & for all of us.


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## Blythe

barbikins said:


> Blythe, I read you post about how you've spent all this time doing everything you could do & maybe its best to do nothing....
> I feel that way too. I'm getting there. I'm still taking a bunch of vitamins & trying a new acupuncturist & trying Chinese Medicine for the first time....but after this if nothing works, I AM DONE!!!
> I got pregnant once not being aware of anything I was doing, eating, drinking, sleeping .....anything. I've also become obsessive to find the next best fertility supplement or practice. It's a lot of time & money & stress & for what? 1.5 years later, NOTHING.
> I hope some thing comes of all this for you & for all of us.

Hi Barbikins :)

dont get me wrong i think chinese medicine has loads to offer women with fertility issues and i have read so many i inspiring stories but none of the treatments i have had have had a noticeable impact on my health. i have just returned from an acu session as i have a couple of treatments left on current plan and it was nice. its quite nice to have a time where i have no option but to lay there so for that reason alone its relaxing. 

i was told my kidney function is still poor...yes yes - i was told that a year and half ago so its disappointing to hear that none of the treatments and the thousands spent have made a jot of difference to this diagnosis! 

still whilst the treatments have had no effect the medicine system as a whole has...its fascinating and i have very much enjoyed finding out how TCM views health and imbalance. i decided against the recommended herbs today and went to the shop and brought raspberries, walnuts and brazil nuts together with nettle tea. i think i will have acu now and then and try and rebalance through nutrition [not obsessing though - choc and caffeine are here to stay!] and hopefully some yoga.


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## Blythe

Blythe said:


> barbikins said:
> 
> 
> Blythe, I read you post about how you've spent all this time doing everything you could do & maybe its best to do nothing....
> I feel that way too. I'm getting there. I'm still taking a bunch of vitamins & trying a new acupuncturist & trying Chinese Medicine for the first time....but after this if nothing works, I AM DONE!!!
> I got pregnant once not being aware of anything I was doing, eating, drinking, sleeping .....anything. I've also become obsessive to find the next best fertility supplement or practice. It's a lot of time & money & stress & for what? 1.5 years later, NOTHING.
> I hope some thing comes of all this for you & for all of us.
> 
> Hi Barbikins :)
> 
> dont get me wrong i think chinese medicine has loads to offer women with fertility issues and i have read so many i inspiring stories but none of the treatments i have had have had a noticeable impact on my health. i have just returned from an acu session as i have a couple of treatments left on current plan and it was nice. its quite nice to have a time where i have no option but to lay there so for that reason alone its relaxing.
> 
> i was told my kidney function is still poor...yes yes - i was told that a year and half ago so its disappointing to hear that none of the treatments and the thousands spent have made a jot of difference to this diagnosis!
> 
> still whilst the treatments have had no effect the medicine system as a whole has...its fascinating and i have very much enjoyed finding out how TCM views health and imbalance. i decided against the recommended herbs today and went to the shop and brought raspberries, walnuts and brazil nuts together with nettle tea. i think i will have acu now and then and try and rebalance through nutrition [not obsessing though - choc and caffeine are here to stay!] and hopefully some yoga.Click to expand...


PS - please report back on your treatments - I'm always really interested to find out how others get on with their treatments. fingers crossed it provides that final little push for you and your BFP is just around the corner :flower:


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## barbikins

Hey Blythe...I agree. The reason I keep going is because I know it can work so why not try it right? TCM is my last resort & then I'm really done & saving up for IVF....then at least we'll get some more answers about how things are working when my egg gets fertilized. they can analyze what's going wrong...if they can see it.
I have my follow up w/RE Tuesday morning & we did a DNA frag test on his spermies so we'll see if that's the culprit & the next steps.
Also I'm told I have elevated NK Cells but my RE made no mention like it was an issues so I need to pick a bone with her about that as well.


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## Briss

I found this lovely japanese place https://www.chi-yu.co.uk/treatments.php#group2 and hubby treated me to reflexology. it was quite an experience! their practitioner challenged my pain threshold :) but i think it was probably the best reflexology I ever had, she was so thorough in locating the relevant points and working them and went so deep that at times it felt like she was counting my bones. I cant understand how she did it I cant do it myself, she must have pressed really hard. I can only compare it to my very first chinese doc who did this very painful heat clearing procedure where i was in agony from pain, basically that was similar. interestingly, previously I was always told that my feet do not show any problems and everything looks fine but this japanese practitioner found quite a few problem areas and afterwards showed me what they were and which organs they related to. she was definitely spot on on hormonal imbalance. When I got home I had quite a bit of cramping, not sure whether this is good or not, do not like cramping anyway.


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## Blythe

Briss said:


> I found this lovely japanese place https://www.chi-yu.co.uk/treatments.php#group2 and hubby treated me to reflexology. it was quite an experience! their practitioner challenged my pain threshold :) but i think it was probably the best reflexology I ever had, she was so thorough in locating the relevant points and working them and went so deep that at times it felt like she was counting my bones. I cant understand how she did it I cant do it myself, she must have pressed really hard. I can only compare it to my very first chinese doc who did this very painful heat clearing procedure where i was in agony from pain, basically that was similar. interestingly, previously I was always told that my feet do not show any problems and everything looks fine but this japanese practitioner found quite a few problem areas and afterwards showed me what they were and which organs they related to. she was definitely spot on on hormonal imbalance. When I got home I had quite a bit of cramping, not sure whether this is good or not, do not like cramping anyway.


Oooooo that sounds fab. I just looked at their therapists and they have one specialising in Chinese astrology....I could spend money on that!! What a lovely treat.....I might treat myself to a massage of some kind soon. 

This evening I decided to sponser a child and have sponsored one in Afghanistan as I spent done time there (I also watched the kite runner the other week and was in tears over the orphanage scene). I will get two letters per year and should receive my welcome pack next week which will include a pic :)


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## Briss

Blythe, well done for doing charity. What did you do in Afghanistan? the only charity I do is helping young people from disadvantaged background to find their way into the City through mentoring. although having worked in the City for years I begin to doubt whether I am doing anyone any favour here. Other than that I only help my poor relations (although with mixed feelings cos even though I earn more, they all live in their own houses while I am still renting...)

I lost my faith in Chinese astrology cos they promised me a baby in the year of the snake....

I can definitely recommend this place although I've only been there once but the quality of reflexology was brilliant but it is a bit pricey when she said it's 75 pounds for an hour I was about to say "no, thank you" but my DH wanted to treat me. it's funny how he never ever was prepared to pay anything for any of my chinese treatments but is always ready to pay for reflexology. I think I am going to exploit that a little bit cos I it was really good :)

getting slightly concerned about cramping cos I still have a week before AF, it's not uncommon for me to cramp before AF but usually 2-3 day before not a whole week, and the fact that it happened right after I had reflexology also strange 

This cycle I am also doing juicing! not every day but at least 3-4 times a week. so far it's just been carrot juice but I may add some beetroot next week.

Also, managed to force myself to do a few yoga poses at home, nothing fancy though just a few fertility poses recommend in TWW


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## Juniperjules

Ooh that reflexology sounds like bliss Briss!! ; ) interesting that ur DH has no issues with it too... Milk that for all it's worth girl! 

Blythe, good work on the sponsoring. My mum had done that for years & years. I don't do anything formal- but I regularly hand out cash to homeless people I see on the street. I'm from Scotland but live in Aust, & whenever I'm back in the UK, either in Glasgow or London, I'm always upset by the amount of homeless people I see in the cities. I cannot walk past someone who everyone else is ignoring while they stroll past with arms full of shopping bags. It does my head in. I even went to an ATM machine last feb when I was in Glasgow to withdraw £10 to give to a man. He wasn't even begging really. He looked in his 60's, & was just sitting on some stairs with a cup. My dad is about the same age & it just upset me so much. There but for the grace of god I said to myself. The look of gratitude in his eyes when I dropped the money in his cup was heartbreaking. I still cry even now when I think about it. 

So I'm on my 3rd day of spotting. AF is due tomoro. If she's coming I just want it over & done with- this spotting is weird for me. Have got out IVF counselling session in 2 hours. Can't wait to just get it over with!


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## Blythe

Briss - i wonder if the treatment is causing the cramping....aren't the ovaries/uterus located around the ankle region? this is quite interesting:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jOAvs_fTy8c

i had my acu yesterday and felt some aftershocks in the ovary region! she knew i was post ovulation but still applied a heat lamp and needled the same tummy points...i do wonder. i always get cramping at least 7 days before AF but if thats not usual maybe its something good....

i worked out in kabul for 6 months back in 06 with the mil. its great that you have been involved in mentoring. do you think you and DH will end up buying in london? i do love london but just never make the most of it nowadays plus the fact its so expensive to buy. 

Juniperjules - spotting is so irritating. until i started ttc i never never had it. i had perfect 28 day cycles and knew when to expect AF within a two hour timeframe. i reckon something in the multitude of supplements i started taking did not agree with me and within about 4 months i started spotting and its something i have not really been able to fully eradicate since. still it wont stop me getting pregnant but id rather it didnt happen.

please report back on the counselling session and i hope it goes ok for you both.


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## Juniperjules

Actually, I was wrong in that last post Blythe. I haven't actually had any spotting today. It seems to have stopped. It's 5pm & nothing so far. I just looked at myself in the mirror b4 & am appalled at the state of my skin!! I've always had good skin, yeh I got some PMS pimples when I was younger, but not for years now. The last few months though the pimples seem to be back. Bloody irritating at this age! 

Well counselling went fine. 
Was quick bcoz I already knew everything she was telling us, so should've been an hour but only took 30mins! Oh did wot I KNEW he would & kept saying stupid things..he asked if they gave a money back guarantee!! thankfully the psychologist thought he was hilarious & said noone had ever asked her that question & said she was gonna tell her colleagues that one! I wanted to strangle him but she thought it was funny so i just laughed too. so overall wasn't too bad after all. Glad it's done though.. While waiting to go in OH started making comments about how we haven't barely ttc yet & we should just keep our money & keep trying!!!! I wasn't sure if he was serious or joking but I shut him up by telling him that if he said another thing like that I would start crying!! An the emotional blackmail worked a treat : )


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## HBGirl

I just wanted to pop in and give a success story. I underwent treatment for just under 4 months and got my BFP. This was after dr told me I would probably need IUI.


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## Briss

Juniperjules, I agree with Blythe, spotting is very disappointing. it's just one of those things that makes you think something is not right. I do get acne from time to time. quite annoyingly I developed it in my 30s and never had it as a teenager. when I was going to my previous acu doc my acne got completely out of control (spots were huge and some were bleeding, I was so bad that I was embarrassed to be in the office) and I could not understand whether it was a good thing meaning that acu/herbs were working i.e clearing heat or not. in the end I tend to think my acne got worse because of these herbs because as soon as I stopped taking them my face cleared. Now I get 1-2 spots before AF and around O. I'm glad your IVF counselling session went well. I am totally with on DH saying silly things. My DH does this to me all the time and I have to correct the situation so people do not think we are complete nutters 

Blythe, my previous doc always applied a heat lamp and needled the same tummy (RENs and Zigongs) points regardless whether I was before or after O. I am still not sure whether this was correct treatment and sometimes I did get cramping and ovary pains after the acu on the way home but it did not last long. The Japanese reflexologist actually told me she can see some problems in my uterus but could not be more specific. 

wow, kabul sounds awfully dangerous. did you have to wear the scarf? I have relatives living in a Muslim country near Iran they want me to come for a wedding in September but it's just not safe. I used to go there with my parents when I was a child but we stopped once I grew up, I could see that I did not fit in and men (relatives) would look at me with disapproval and I could never figure out what I did wrong. I also developed a fear of being kidnapped and married off against my will. it was irrational fear because getting married is a single most important thing a girl would do so when I was around women would start speculating who I should marry and as a child I thought they were seriously plotting something.

I agree there are so many homeless people in London I'd always give money to an elderly but unfortunately a lot of them seem like very capable men. I can never understand why they are out there begging for money instead of working. In my early days in London I was at a point where I thought I would be joining the homeless community very soon as I was earning peanuts as a waitress and could not pay rent, awful times. 

tbh, I cant understand how anyone can afford to buy anything in London these days, the house prices are ridiculous! My DH does not believe in mortgage and thinks we can only buy property if we can pay for it, if we have to borrow that just means we cant afford it and if we cant afford it we should not be buying it&#8230; strange philosophy but he used to be a trader so I tend to rely on him in getting major financial decisions right. a friend of mine recently moved to Berlin, you can actually buy one bedroom flat in a good area for around 80,000 euros!!! but then who would want to live in Berlin? I found it's not for everyone. I really love London! I just cant imagine myself living in a small town where everyone knows each other, it's suffocating! also I must be in walking distance from galleries/museums etc, not that I go there everyday but from time to time I have an urge or a need to go and see an exhibition or a new play (without having to plan this outing in advance in accordance with the train schedule)


----------



## Blythe

HBGirl said:


> I just wanted to pop in and give a success story. I underwent treatment for just under 4 months and got my BFP. This was after dr told me I would probably need IUI.

Congratulations. do you think it was the acu that made the difference? did you also take any herbs?


----------



## HBGirl

Blythe said:


> HBGirl said:
> 
> 
> I just wanted to pop in and give a success story. I underwent treatment for just under 4 months and got my BFP. This was after dr told me I would probably need IUI.
> 
> Congratulations. do you think it was the acu that made the difference? did you also take any herbs?Click to expand...

I have no doubt it was my treatments that contributed to my BFP. I didn't take herbs but my therapist told me to stop taking so many suppliments. I just took EPO and a prenatal for the month before we conceived.


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## Briss

HBGirl, congratulations. I am actually also getting concerned with all the supplements we are taking. Although I do try and have a couple of breaks a year for a month or so where I do not take any supplements. I guess when you are just TTC for a few months it's OK to load yourself with supps and then stop once you get your BFP but I wonder how this should work for LTTTCers, we are basically on supps non-stop for months or even years, this cant be healthy, can it? 

was researching reflexology foot maps https://www.dk.co.uk/static/cs/uk/11/features/reflexology/footchart.html, one of the problem areas that the Japanese practitioner identified related to pituitary gland which produces FSH so I guess she was right as I do have high FSH issue although it was not the area that I found painful to massage. For some reason I thought that problem areas should be the ones that cause you pain or discomfort. it also relates to head/brain area but she explained that it's all stress related. they say that the reflexology foot massage induces a rebalancing of the body's energy and hormones. I wonder how? they told me if I do reflexology quite often like twice a week I would be able to see some changes. I seriously doubt it. I know reflexology is quite good in identifying your health issues but can it really treat it as well? Can reflexology be anything more than just a technique used for general relaxation, stress relief and improved circulation?


----------



## Blythe

Briss said:


> Juniperjules, I agree with Blythe, spotting is very disappointing. it's just one of those things that makes you think something is not right. I do get acne from time to time. quite annoyingly I developed it in my 30s and never had it as a teenager. when I was going to my previous acu doc my acne got completely out of control (spots were huge and some were bleeding, I was so bad that I was embarrassed to be in the office) and I could not understand whether it was a good thing meaning that acu/herbs were working i.e clearing heat or not. in the end I tend to think my acne got worse because of these herbs because as soon as I stopped taking them my face cleared. Now I get 1-2 spots before AF and around O. I'm glad your IVF counselling session went well. I am totally with on DH saying silly things. My DH does this to me all the time and I have to correct the situation so people do not think we are complete nutters
> 
> Blythe, my previous doc always applied a heat lamp and needled the same tummy (RENs and Zigongs) points regardless whether I was before or after O. I am still not sure whether this was correct treatment and sometimes I did get cramping and ovary pains after the acu on the way home but it did not last long. The Japanese reflexologist actually told me she can see some problems in my uterus but could not be more specific.
> 
> wow, kabul sounds awfully dangerous. did you have to wear the scarf? I have relatives living in a Muslim country near Iran they want me to come for a wedding in September but it's just not safe. I used to go there with my parents when I was a child but we stopped once I grew up, I could see that I did not fit in and men (relatives) would look at me with disapproval and I could never figure out what I did wrong. I also developed a fear of being kidnapped and married off against my will. it was irrational fear because getting married is a single most important thing a girl would do so when I was around women would start speculating who I should marry and as a child I thought they were seriously plotting something.
> 
> I agree there are so many homeless people in London I'd always give money to an elderly but unfortunately a lot of them seem like very capable men. I can never understand why they are out there begging for money instead of working. In my early days in London I was at a point where I thought I would be joining the homeless community very soon as I was earning peanuts as a waitress and could not pay rent, awful times.
> 
> tbh, I cant understand how anyone can afford to buy anything in London these days, the house prices are ridiculous! My DH does not believe in mortgage and thinks we can only buy property if we can pay for it, if we have to borrow that just means we cant afford it and if we cant afford it we should not be buying it strange philosophy but he used to be a trader so I tend to rely on him in getting major financial decisions right. a friend of mine recently moved to Berlin, you can actually buy one bedroom flat in a good area for around 80,000 euros!!! but then who would want to live in Berlin? I found it's not for everyone. I really love London! I just cant imagine myself living in a small town where everyone knows each other, it's suffocating! also I must be in walking distance from galleries/museums etc, not that I go there everyday but from time to time I have an urge or a need to go and see an exhibition or a new play (without having to plan this outing in advance in accordance with the train schedule)

it is great having so many things on our doorstep. i used to be out all of the time but nowadays I yearn for a quieter existence. i used to work in the imperial war museum for about 4 years and used to love getting to know the collections...their art collection is breathtaking [IMO]. i have not been to see a play since i saw corelianus and i only went to see that because i fancied ralph fiennes. 

Afg was dangerous but i was mostly in a well protected camp. There was no requirement for me to wear a scarf as long as i was modestly dressed. i think kabul used to be on the old hippie trail in the 60s so was very bohemian once...so very sad the changes it has gone through. i saw many women still wearing the burqas but many were not which was great to see. 

im sorry that the area your family are living is not safe...i hope whatever the situation is will change soon and they will not be directly affected. It seems to be a time of great change in that region and i wonder where/when it will end...


ahhh begging in london.....it can be a very lucrative business if you get the right spot. i do give to people but only when i believe the need is genuine and, quite frankly, i don't mind if it goes on drink and drugs but there are shameless professional beggars out there which makes me angry. my heart hurts when people are beyond help and when the drink has taken hold, particularly when they are young.

im about to retire to my front room [been working from home in dining room] to pull out my reflexology foot massage thingy from under the sofa. obviously nothing like the real thing but surprisingly effective at making me feel lighter on my feet.


----------



## Briss

I love imperial war museum! I used to take my students there when I was teaching, good times&#8230;

you are brave! your Afghanistan adventure sounds awfully dangerous. I think even when there is no legal requirement to wear burqa you might still want to do it for your comfort. DH and I spent a few days in Cairo which seems like a civilised place welcoming tourists (well not at the moment) but away from tourist places I found it unbearable, the heat and everyone on the streets is looking at you (I was wearing long sleeves and trousers and a hat) and you do not know whether they are just curious or they want to attack you. in hindsight I should have just wore burqa and no one would be looking so you can just go about your business. in the end I nearly had a panic attack I am just not good at being a center of attention and when it was happening for hours + the heat I just lost it. 

we used to have this lady begging in Edgware road in front of Waitrose, she looked ill but she was all covered up and I always doubted it was a genuine beggar, she was later features on the news and indeed it turns out begging can be a very lucrative business and this particular spot apparently is very popular with professional beggars. 

I think that the Japanese lady must have used some Foot Massage Sticks rather just her fingers cos I do not think you can achieve such precision with your fingers. what do you think about this foot massager - https://www.amazon.com/The-Sharper-Image-MSG-F110-Kneading/dp/B002LSI3IU/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top I really want one at home, my feet are aching for massage but not sure which one can do it really strong


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## Blythe

Briss said:


> I love imperial war museum! I used to take my students there when I was teaching, good times
> 
> you are brave! your Afghanistan adventure sounds awfully dangerous. I think even when there is no legal requirement to wear burqa you might still want to do it for your comfort. DH and I spent a few days in Cairo which seems like a civilised place welcoming tourists (well not at the moment) but away from tourist places I found it unbearable, the heat and everyone on the streets is looking at you (I was wearing long sleeves and trousers and a hat) and you do not know whether they are just curious or they want to attack you. in hindsight I should have just wore burqa and no one would be looking so you can just go about your business. in the end I nearly had a panic attack I am just not good at being a center of attention and when it was happening for hours + the heat I just lost it.
> 
> we used to have this lady begging in Edgware road in front of Waitrose, she looked ill but she was all covered up and I always doubted it was a genuine beggar, she was later features on the news and indeed it turns out begging can be a very lucrative business and this particular spot apparently is very popular with professional beggars.
> 
> I think that the Japanese lady must have used some Foot Massage Sticks rather just her fingers cos I do not think you can achieve such precision with your fingers. what do you think about this foot massager - https://www.amazon.com/The-Sharper-Image-MSG-F110-Kneading/dp/B002LSI3IU/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top I really want one at home, my feet are aching for massage but not sure which one can do it really strong


i checked the link and ended up clicking on other links to other massagers! i found myself obsessing about sonic toothbrushes and the clarisonic cleanser...i have just spent the last hour reviewing and comparing different sonic skin cleansers and have purchased the clarisonic one from the US so hoping it will arrive soonish! it felt good to obsess about something other than fertility :)

ps - that foot massager looks amazing...my one only has two large spinning heads so one for each foot and that feels great so lord only knows what this one does :)


----------



## Briss

did you get this one - https://www.amazon.co.uk/Clarisonic...376948427&sr=8-1&keywords=clarisonic+cleanser I've never seen anything like that. how does it work?

ladies were complaining that this massager is designed for large men feet :( it's not cheap, cant quite make up my mind, some also said it's not massaging hard enough. cant find anything better and I desperately want a massager :) 

btw, I was reading Zita West's book on IVF and she recommends doing 2 acu sessions on the day of egg transfer, before and after but she does not recommend any further complimentary treatments after that, not even reflexology. I guess time after egg transfer is like TWW so I wonder whether I made a mistake in doing reflexology in TWW, clearly had cramping right after that. she also does not recommend any heating on tummy area after egg transfer so i guess heating lamp during acu sessions is not a good idea. I will try to do reflexology before O but then i definitely need a foot massager :)


----------



## Blythe

Briss said:


> did you get this one - https://www.amazon.co.uk/Clarisonic...376948427&sr=8-1&keywords=clarisonic+cleanser I've never seen anything like that. how does it work?
> 
> ladies were complaining that this massager is designed for large men feet :( it's not cheap, cant quite make up my mind, some also said it's not massaging hard enough. cant find anything better and I desperately want a massager :)
> 
> btw, I was reading Zita West's book on IVF and she recommends doing 2 acu sessions on the day of egg transfer, before and after but she does not recommend any further complimentary treatments after that, not even reflexology. I guess time after egg transfer is like TWW so I wonder whether I made a mistake in doing reflexology in TWW, clearly had cramping right after that. she also does not recommend any heating on tummy area after egg transfer so i guess heating lamp during acu sessions is not a good idea. I will try to do reflexology before O but then i definitely need a foot massager :)


I got this one.....
https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/B005YB36RY/ref=aw_2nd_sims_2?pi=SL500_SS115

I've been thinking about getting one on and off for a year or so. I never go for facials so that's how I've justified the expense although I paid less than that for it. 

Good call re 2ww and I think I'm going to stop having treat bets then and if I have Acu then pre ov and around ov only, particularly as she does not alter her treatments.


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## Juniperjules

Am jealous Blythe!! I've been wanting to buy the clarisonic for about 2 years!!! Almost bought one when I was in Florida last November but decided against it. It has fab reviews & I think will def be money well spent for you. 

On the homeless people, I don't tend to hand out $$ willy- nilly. I've walked past beggars plenty of times. But sometimes ill see someone & i feel something that I decided a long time ago that I wouldn't ignore when I feel it. It's hard to explain, but it's a feeling of intense sadness & hopelessness... A feeling that makes me want to cry. So when I see someone & THAT feeling arises, then ill give some money or ill but some food for them. And I've never regretted it once. And ditto on the 'alcohol'.. At the end of the day if someone is an alcoholic & they spend the cash I give them on a drink, then it's not for me to judge that. Not giving them a few dollars/pounds isnt gonna cure an addiction of a lifetime. I work with alcoholics & I have alcoholism in my family. So as far as I'm concerned I give the money & wot someone does with it is up to them.

So AF arrived in full force this afternoon. Felt sad. Felt p*#ssed off. Felt hopeless. And now I'm trying to move on. Took his nibs to have his pre-IVF bloods done today so another thing ticked off the list of 'to-do's' so that was a positive to try & offset the crappiness of another AF!


----------



## Briss

junniper, I am very sorry about AF, I really hope you are getting closer to your BFP. what's your plan of attack this cycle?

just want to share this info on cancer prevention

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h7RBphooG28&feature=youtu.be 

a friend recommended reading on otto heinrich warburg's findings, he actually won a Nobel prize for his research. I've read a lot about alkaline vs acid foods for improving fertility but never linked it to cancer and did not realise there was actual scientific knowledge and proof on this. I am still not quite sure how it works I mean the connection between our food choices and creating an acidic environment for cancer sells to grow. I can understand how you can change acidity of your urine by changing your diet but whether this also changes PH of your blood and other liquids/organs is not quite clear to me. one thing seems clear that sugar is the number one enemy &#8230; how disappointing! my friend lost her aunt to cancer and ever since she's been drinking water with soda and lemon which is supposed to alkaline her body and prevent cancer. I have my doubts (mainly cos I have gastritis and not sure what this drink can do to my stomach). I mean I agree that lemon is the best alkalising food (despite being acidic) but soda? also cant find otto heinrich warburg actually saying you need to drink soda/lemon, it's all about having enough oxygen and oxygen lives in alkaline environment, he seems to be saying that in order to create alkaline environment you need to eat the right sort of food. I continue reading and let you know if I find anything interesting but for the time being my lunch today is 80% green. (btw I did check my urine and it's very acidic&#8230;but is it the correct indication of your body ph balance? I am not sure)


----------



## Juniperjules

Blythe, just a quick post bcos I'm doing a 15hr double shift tomoro & need to get my behind to bed. 

My plan of attack this month is probably gonna be to do wot we always do ttc wise- don't know wot we could do extra really??? & at the same time look towards the IVF. It's hard not to think about it everyday.. 

Im also feeling like i need to lose a kilo or two so maybe a bit of exercise too!! It will help with managing the stressors of IVF as well I'd say. the weather here should be starting to improve soon so OH & i will maybe get a few bike rides in. in the good weather we try to ride about 40-60 km a week (actually he does way more up to 100km a week). And I'm picking up an extra shift a week to get some extra money in for the IVF- at this point we need about $4k more (approx £2300).. I'm only doing 4 shifts a week at the moment so 1 extra a week only brings me up to full time really. 

You mentioned sugar.. I do know that sugar has been identified as something the causes/ speeds up the ageing process in our bodies. It's extremely damaging. There is an interesting doco I've seen twice from the UK. It's a very attractive doctor, Anglo Indian looking who is investigating 'ageing'.. Mainly skin ageing, & sugar is one of, if not THE biggest Factors in ur skin ageing. A study was done involving diabetics & non diabetics, the diabetics were ageing faster due to the higher glucose levels in their body. 

I mentioned it to my sister who is a nurse in dermatology & she said that it was already pretty well known in dermatology that sugar causes skin ageing. 

It tastes good.. But at the end of the day it's pretty nasty stuff sugar!

... So much for a quick post! ; )


----------



## Blythe

Briss said:


> junniper, I am very sorry about AF, I really hope you are getting closer to your BFP. what's your plan of attack this cycle?
> 
> just want to share this info on cancer prevention
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h7RBphooG28&feature=youtu.be
> 
> a friend recommended reading on otto heinrich warburg's findings, he actually won a Nobel prize for his research. I've read a lot about alkaline vs acid foods for improving fertility but never linked it to cancer and did not realise there was actual scientific knowledge and proof on this. I am still not quite sure how it works I mean the connection between our food choices and creating an acidic environment for cancer sells to grow. I can understand how you can change acidity of your urine by changing your diet but whether this also changes PH of your blood and other liquids/organs is not quite clear to me. one thing seems clear that sugar is the number one enemy  how disappointing! my friend lost her aunt to cancer and ever since she's been drinking water with soda and lemon which is supposed to alkaline her body and prevent cancer. I have my doubts (mainly cos I have gastritis and not sure what this drink can do to my stomach). I mean I agree that lemon is the best alkalising food (despite being acidic) but soda? also cant find otto heinrich warburg actually saying you need to drink soda/lemon, it's all about having enough oxygen and oxygen lives in alkaline environment, he seems to be saying that in order to create alkaline environment you need to eat the right sort of food. I continue reading and let you know if I find anything interesting but for the time being my lunch today is 80% green. (btw I did check my urine and it's very acidicbut is it the correct indication of your body ph balance? I am not sure)

This is very interesting indeed - many thanks for posting. i have been looking at lists of acid forming foods and alkaline foods and its very surprising. i may have to reevaluate some of the foods i have been choosing as healthy options. i take sugar in my tea and coffee and eat choc most days...i need to modify that as a starter.


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## Blythe

I cannot believe how acidic tea and coffee are. i will now cut down to just one per day and then go to one every other day....and back to daily wheatgrass shot!!

https://fertilitydoll.wordpress.com/2012/06/11/foods-acid-or-alkaline-the-list/


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## Briss

I could not eat chocolate today, really wanted to but every time I looked at it I saw "cancer" written all over it :( bought myself some honey, actually if you soak some nuts in honey it almost feels as good as chocolate - sweet and filling. let's see how long that lasts. 

It's all very confusing. I've been looking at different acid forming and alkaline foods and different websites put the same food in different category so cant figure which one is correct. is honey acidic or alkaline? some say "raw" honey is alkaline. what's raw honey? 

I also had wheatgrass shot today and vegetable juice, very proud of myself :) but actually looking at my diet I think I am generally healthy and alkaline cos I eat lost of veggies apart from my sugar intake which kind of ruins the whole balance. still undecided about soda/lemon combination.


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## Briss

an interesting article with lots of info and research sources - https://www.energiseforlife.com/wordpress/2012/01/24/the-7-most-alkaline-foods/ basically anything green is alkaline. quite shocking that raisins and green tea are acidic &#8211; these always were my healthy options! luckily at work I only drink nettles which seems to be alkaline https://blog.livingearthbeauty.com/2009/11/beauty-foods-stinging-nettles/ although some other sources suggest it might be acidic, how confusing

"One confusing food for most people who transition to an alkaline diet is fruit - which, unfortunately is acid-forming, due to its high sugar content. I know that fruit contains a lot of good stuff too, such as fibre, vitamins and minerals - however, this high sugar content really does undo anything the good stuff can bring. Bananas for example are very high in potassium, but are around 25% sugar. The only exceptions to the &#8216;no fruit rule&#8217; are tomatoes, avocados, lemons & limes (great for dressings and flavourings), grapefruit and watermelon (to some degree) which are alkaline because they are so low in sugar."


----------



## Blythe

Briss said:


> an interesting article with lots of info and research sources - https://www.energiseforlife.com/wordpress/2012/01/24/the-7-most-alkaline-foods/ basically anything green is alkaline. quite shocking that raisins and green tea are acidic  these always were my healthy options! luckily at work I only drink nettles which seems to be alkaline https://blog.livingearthbeauty.com/2009/11/beauty-foods-stinging-nettles/ although some other sources suggest it might be acidic, how confusing
> 
> "One confusing food for most people who transition to an alkaline diet is fruit - which, unfortunately is acid-forming, due to its high sugar content. I know that fruit contains a lot of good stuff too, such as fibre, vitamins and minerals - however, this high sugar content really does undo anything the good stuff can bring. Bananas for example are very high in potassium, but are around 25% sugar. The only exceptions to the no fruit rule are tomatoes, avocados, lemons & limes (great for dressings and flavourings), grapefruit and watermelon (to some degree) which are alkaline because they are so low in sugar."

i will take a look at those links later. i thought raisins were alkaline...ive looked at a few different sources now and have seen banana [not dried] in both acid and alkaline! very confusing. i will put together a list of things i like which are alkaline and be sure to eat/drink more of those.

Today for the first time in months i did not have any caffeine or chocolate but i did have quite alot of green tea but i guess its less acidic than coffee. i have been a little short tempered this afternoon and tired but working through it and will try and give both a miss until at least the weekend.

The fertility benefits of creating a more alkaline environment are exciting as its something i have never ever looked at before. i have often wondered if my DH's sperm just does not get a chance and feel determined to stick to this and see if it will help get my BFP!!

Juniperjules - hope the double shift [ouch!] is going ok - thanks for the info on skin benefits too - it would be foolish for my to spend all that dosh on a clarisonic thingy then sabotage my efforts by eating ageing foods.....I'm nothing if not vain!


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## gingmg

It's official, today is my birthday, I am now TTC over 35. I am due for AF sat, and we are starting IUIs again this cycle. Excited and scared. At least we won't be paying out of pocket anymore, because I have officially met the criteria for fertility coverage- mixed feelings about that. 
My OH gave me a jump rope for my bday, which I asked for cuz I thought I've heard somewhere about jump roping and fertility? Anyone know about that?


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## Blythe

gingmg said:


> It's official, today is my birthday, I am now TTC over 35. I am due for AF sat, and we are starting IUIs again this cycle. Excited and scared. At least we won't be paying out of pocket anymore, because I have officially met the criteria for fertility coverage- mixed feelings about that.
> My OH gave me a jump rope for my bday, which I asked for cuz I thought I've heard somewhere about jump roping and fertility? Anyone know about that?



Hi gingmg - Happy Birthday :cake:

Those milestone birthdays can be a bit of a sod! But i would love to be celebrating my 35th :)

i have not read the book but i think the skipping thing may have come from 'inconceivable'....anything that gets the blood pumping round must be good but i NEVER jump during the 2WW....maybe this is where i am going wrong!!

i hope you have a lovely day and i also hope your 35th year is the best year yet filled with good things and lovely surprises.


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## Briss

gingmg - Happy Birthday!! I wish you to get your BFP very shortly followed by healthy pregnancy and a wonderful baby. I hope you will have a good time celebrating your birthday. I think Blythe is right I remember reading something about the skipping thing in 'inconceivable' but I've never done it myself.

Blythe, well done on not having any caffeine or chocolate!! 
I did some reading and the best alkaline drink is apparently Yerba Mate! I tried it and it is actually pretty good so I ordered lots of it from amazon. It can easily replace green tea. I had my cappuccino today but no chocolate just a bit of honey. had a packet of greens and a compulsory wheatgrass shot, plus carrot juice. I love cucumbers, avocados and pomegranate which are luckily alkaline.

I've been checking my saliva for acidity and was pleasantly surprised that it seemed alkaline at about 7.5, that is before I realised that I was not supposed to test it after eating and also stupidly put it in my mouth :( apparently there are some nasty chemicals in this stick and you are not supposed to do it like that. i also checked my tap filtered water and it's around 8.0 I am like a maniac going around the house with the sticks thinking what else I can check for acidity. I think I will leave it until weekend as I want to check both urine and saliva and the right way is to do it several times during the day.


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## Briss

Jazzbird, Breaking Dawn, Melly, how is it going, ladies? are you still doing acu/herbs? any positive changes?


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## Blythe

Briss said:


> gingmg - Happy Birthday!! I wish you to get your BFP very shortly followed by healthy pregnancy and a wonderful baby. I hope you will have a good time celebrating your birthday. I think Blythe is right I remember reading something about the skipping thing in 'inconceivable' but I've never done it myself.
> 
> Blythe, well done on not having any caffeine or chocolate!!
> I did some reading and the best alkaline drink is apparently Yerba Mate! I tried it and it is actually pretty good so I ordered lots of it from amazon. It can easily replace green tea. I had my cappuccino today but no chocolate just a bit of honey. had a packet of greens and a compulsory wheatgrass shot, plus carrot juice. I love cucumbers, avocados and pomegranate which are luckily alkaline.
> 
> I've been checking my saliva for acidity and was pleasantly surprised that it seemed alkaline at about 7.5, that is before I realised that I was not supposed to test it after eating and also stupidly put it in my mouth :( apparently there are some nasty chemicals in this stick and you are not supposed to do it like that. i also checked my tap filtered water and it's around 8.0 I am like a maniac going around the house with the sticks thinking what else I can check for acidity. I think I will leave it until weekend as I want to check both urine and saliva and the right way is to do it several times during the day.

I just brought done tea pigs Yerba mate. They are expensive but I find they overstuff their tea bags so I open them and get about 5 teas from each :)


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## Briss

I've also ordered some tea pigs Yerba mate to drink at work but also a few cheaper alternatives to drink at home https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B006WZ3568/ref=oh_details_o01_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 and https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B004B61HWE/ref=oh_details_o01_s00_i01?ie=UTF8&psc=1 the more I read about Yerba mate the more I am getting concerned actually. apparently it does contain caffeine (although unlike other caffeine drinks it is not acidic) but depending on how it was prepared it can actually be harmful if you drink it constantly. I continue my research and will keep you posted, trying to find which brand is prepared the right way but for the time being it's better to mix it up with other drinks. 

Also people seem to be saying you need to do smth about your water by making it more alkaline. I cant understand why as it already is very alkaline 

I am pathetic when it comes to chocolate, I could not even manage 2 days without it, basically could not hold on any longer and stuffed myself with lots of choc last night &#8230; 

Got an unpleasant looking breakout on my chin&#8230; how disappointing! not a good sign. am getting more and more depressed with every minute getting closer to Sunday (AF day). I think I am going to write to CREATE with my results and ask if they want to proceed with IVF next week. maybe they will want to do more CD3 bloods to check whether my oestrogen returned to normal cos if not they probably wont do it. I just feel I cant wait for MRI, getting restless and unhappy and need to do something about our prospects.

on a positive note, I got a bonus at work! not a huge amount but still very pleased. so got myself a foot massager - HoMedics FM-S-3GB Shiatsu Foot Massager with Heat. I think it's probably the same you've got but it has counter-rotating massage action and the one with 3 disks does not seem to have it. I think it's the best feature. Cant wait!


----------



## Blythe

Briss said:


> I've also ordered some tea pigs Yerba mate to drink at work but also a few cheaper alternatives to drink at home https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B006WZ3568/ref=oh_details_o01_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 and https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B004B61HWE/ref=oh_details_o01_s00_i01?ie=UTF8&psc=1 the more I read about Yerba mate the more I am getting concerned actually. apparently it does contain caffeine (although unlike other caffeine drinks it is not acidic) but depending on how it was prepared it can actually be harmful if you drink it constantly. I continue my research and will keep you posted, trying to find which brand is prepared the right way but for the time being it's better to mix it up with other drinks.
> 
> Also people seem to be saying you need to do smth about your water by making it more alkaline. I cant understand why as it already is very alkaline
> 
> I am pathetic when it comes to chocolate, I could not even manage 2 days without it, basically could not hold on any longer and stuffed myself with lots of choc last night
> 
> Got an unpleasant looking breakout on my chin how disappointing! not a good sign. am getting more and more depressed with every minute getting closer to Sunday (AF day). I think I am going to write to CREATE with my results and ask if they want to proceed with IVF next week. maybe they will want to do more CD3 bloods to check whether my oestrogen returned to normal cos if not they probably wont do it. I just feel I cant wait for MRI, getting restless and unhappy and need to do something about our prospects.
> 
> on a positive note, I got a bonus at work! not a huge amount but still very pleased. so got myself a foot massager - HoMedics FM-S-3GB Shiatsu Foot Massager with Heat. I think it's probably the same you've got but it has counter-rotating massage action and the one with 3 disks does not seem to have it. I think it's the best feature. Cant wait!

Congratulations on the bonus. I haven't had one for years.....bloody austerity measures :(

Il check that massager when I get home.....very exciting though and lovely to have a good massage on tap :)

It would certainly be worth seeing what create have to say. It's that horrid time if month. The uncertainty mixed with desperation....I always need to have a plan in place to keep me from losing it. My plan next month is to have a month off clomid and find a psychic to see face to face in London.... Hardly a productive plan. 

Still no coffee/green-black tea but I'm about to eat a wispa bar.


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## Briss

I am actually scared of psychics, what if they tell you something you do not want to hear? it may turn out to be incorrect anyway 

I had some bread today, very acidic I know but I also had a pack of greens. also had cappuccino and biscotti, no, I am not doing well, am I&#8230; I wonder how much greens you need to eat in a day to counteract the effect of acidic food? I want to find a website where you can enter your food and they will tell you on balance whether what you consumed is acidic or alkaline. It's like counting calories online, I find it very effective


----------



## Breaking Dawn

Hi ladies 

Sorry for being MIA but have had a lot going on..on top of ttc

On sat I took ovidrel trigger bc i had 2 good size follies and a possible third. So dr wanted to ensure the 2 that were ready ovulate and u don't make more.

Sunday I went for IUI #1, I also had an acupuncture appt layer that day. Monday was IUI#2 . DH did really well sperm count was 75mil and 35 mil.

So I feel like this is our big shot. 2 follicles at 20mm and a total of 100 swimmers up there with over 90% motility.

If THIS does not work...i dont know if we should do anymore IUIS. 

I'm also feeling like crap today...like I'm coming down with something. Had a really bad sleep last night...tossing and turning. so unlike me. I hope I don't get sick.


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## Blythe

Breaking Dawn said:


> Hi ladies
> 
> Sorry for being MIA but have had a lot going on..on top of ttc
> 
> On sat I took ovidrel trigger bc i had 2 good size follies and a possible third. So dr wanted to ensure the 2 that were ready ovulate and u don't make more.
> 
> Sunday I went for IUI #1, I also had an acupuncture appt layer that day. Monday was IUI#2 . DH did really well sperm count was 75mil and 35 mil.
> 
> So I feel like this is our big shot. 2 follicles at 20mm and a total of 100 swimmers up there with over 90% motility.
> 
> If THIS does not work...i dont know if we should do anymore IUIS.
> 
> I'm also feeling like crap today...like I'm coming down with something. Had a really bad sleep last night...tossing and turning. so unlike me. I hope I don't get sick.

hi breaking dawn

great to hear from you. wow those stats are impressive - i have everything crossed for you.

i guess you must be 4/5 dpo so feeling like you are coming down with something is no bad thing. i read of so many women getting flu like symptoms ahead of their BFPs. i hope this is it for you as i would love to read of a BFP on here to re-ignite my hope


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## Blythe

Briss - that foot massager is the one i have. i always sleep really well and really deeply after using it..please report back....in fact im going to go and switch it on now!

i have just brought some mega green powder and ph drops for my water....i have to say i think my acid/alkaline balance is about 50/50 but hoping over the next few days to get this more 70/30. Thanks again for bringing this to our attention.....i feel it could make a real difference to my skin, weight and hopefully my fertility but most certainly my long term health.


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## Briss

breaking dawn, great news on IUIs, wow 75 mil!! brilliant! even if I combine my DH's every SA we wont get this much :) fingers crossed it worked this time!


----------



## Briss

I cant wait for my massager to arrive, my feet are literally longing for it :)

what kind of mega green powder and ph drops did you get? I now eat salad with assorted veggies every evening + veg juice + wheatgrass shot + greens for lunch. i wonder if that's enough


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## Blythe

i got these:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/280872697968?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/200894361821?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649

and having a look at that joshi book on alkaline detoxing...he says bananas are good! ive read they are also highly acidic elsewhere...v.confusing!


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## Briss

bananas are definitely acidic, all fruits are except for lemons.... that's the most depressing part of being alkaline. it does seem wrong cos fruits are supposed to be good for you, but then they do have high sugar content so i guess they must be acidic.


----------



## Blythe

Briss said:


> bananas are definitely acidic, all fruits are except for lemons.... that's the most depressing part of being alkaline. it does seem wrong cos fruits are supposed to be good for you, but then they do have high sugar content so i guess they must be acidic.

Joshi says green tea is good and advacado bad. I know he is wrong but you would have thought he would have dive his homework. 

I'm going to print off some lists and stick on fridge.


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## Briss

i wish people would agree what foods are acidic, just so confusing. I love avocados, cant imagine salad without them I would not feel full.

Blythe, do your ph drops change the taste of the water? do you also add them to tea/juices? 

Had some more choc last night :( I'll have to eat more greens to compensate 

Had yet another argument with hubby, cant take his daily pub visits, yesterday he could not even tell how many pints he had, i am disappointed beyond belief, told him we should go for donor sperm, he said in that case he wont pay for IVF and wont take any part in bringing up the child ...


----------



## Jazzbird

Hello everyone. Nice to read all your updates. 

I've had a good cycle so far - usually they are quite long but this month I got ewcm day 11 and opk peak cd13. We bd on both days (late night 11, morning on 13) but now I'm tying myself in knots over when I ovulated. My temps were: 36.2 (11), 36.2 (12), 36.3 (13), 36.5 (14), 36.6 (15 - today).

What do you guys think? I don't get an obvious increase just gradual. Felt too sick yesterday to bd with stomach pains and oh had agreed tonight but think it could be too late. Because my cycle varies so much I'm never prepared. I had it all planned out to bd every other day for a whole week and then I got surprise ewcm the earliest I've ever had it. 

Hope everyone is doing well

Xxx


----------



## Briss

Jazzbird, do you still have EWCM? if so I'd try and BD. It's hard to say at the moment when you O, it could be CD13 but might be later. it will become clear in a few days. 

I got my mate tea (I'd much rather they send me my foot massager first considering the bank holiday weekend ahead!) so as of today I am officially switching from green to mate tea. From what I read its connection to cancer was not proved as it was based on the regional studies. mate is popular in south America and this region is said to have higher cancer rates but it does not mean it's all down to people drinking mate. Mate is packed with vitamins but most importantly it's alkaline so I am giving it a go. but it does have caffeine like green tea so I am going to mix it up with nettles and other herb teas.


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## Jazzbird

Thanks Blythe. I only ever get ewcm for 1 day then + opk occurs 2 days later. So no it has now gone ... I just keep thinking I'm not bding at the right time. Grrrr it's so hard to figure it out! 

Re cancer - I think the best study to date is the one covered by "the china study". It's an epidemiological study of cancer rates in china. There was a huge correlation between consumption of animal protein consumption and cancer in china. Of course it can't rule out other factors such as lifestyle, stress and chemicals but there are other scientific experiments to back it up. 

Another interesting book is called your life in your hands and looks again at epidemiological evidence for breast cancer and dairy product consumption. 

My own personal view is that you have to have a genetic predisposition to begin with and then factors such as stress, pollution, chemicals, excessive animal protein consumption, alcohol, tobacco, drugs, and lack of exercise act as triggers ...

But then there are always people who live exemplary lives (health wise) and still develop it so who knows.


----------



## Briss

Jazzbird, it's so frustrating when your cm and +OPK do not coincide in time as they should, just makes it harder to figure out what's going on. I started going with my ewcm because I think BD without it just does not make any sense (unless you use preseed) but I usually get ewcm a day before O or the day of my O so either on the day of +OPK or the day after. if you have not had ewcm for a couple of days now it's probably too late but even then cos it's still not 100% clear and cos so many ladies got pregnant by BD after what they thought was their O I'd still recommend getting at least one BD session in today, you just never know it might turn out to be the perfect timing. 

epidemiological studies are interesting but they cant take into account all variables. but even then considering that mate is alkaline you would think that people who drink it all day long should have the right ph balance and get lower rate of cancer compared to other regions. when they do not you naturally question whether drinking alkaline drinks like mate does make a difference.

The factors you listed do play a role in increasing our chances of getting various illnesses but then all of these factors are said to increase acidity of our bodies so it does support alkaline vs. acidic food theory. although whether by eating/drinking alkaline you actually improve your changes of keeping cancer away is unclear, you can only hope 

Mate I got has very smoky taste, quite nice actually and other than that it's very similar to green tea.


----------



## Briss

I talked to CREATE but they do not recommend doing IVF until I get MRI scan and it's confirmed that all is OK. They sounded worried about my CA 125, maybe false positives are not as common as I think&#8230;. trying not to think about it, it's just too much. I feel like I need to treat myself to something nice so I could feel positive about life. any suggestions?


----------



## Breaking Dawn

Jazzbird said:


> Hello everyone. Nice to read all your updates.
> 
> I've had a good cycle so far - usually they are quite long but this month I got ewcm day 11 and opk peak cd13. We bd on both days (late night 11, morning on 13) but now I'm tying myself in knots over when I ovulated. My temps were: 36.2 (11), 36.2 (12), 36.3 (13), 36.5 (14), 36.6 (15 - today).
> 
> What do you guys think? I don't get an obvious increase just gradual. Felt too sick yesterday to bd with stomach pains and oh had agreed tonight but think it could be too late. Because my cycle varies so much I'm never prepared. I had it all planned out to bd every other day for a whole week and then I got surprise ewcm the earliest I've ever had it.
> 
> Hope everyone is doing well
> 
> Xxx

The EWCM before opk peak is common for me. I think you BD On the perfect days. I would think you O'd over nite on the 12/13 or morning of 13.

Also...my TCM dr was telling me that LH surge takes time to get from your bloodstream, to your urine, that's why blood LH testing appears to surge ahead of the opk. Based on this I can see why my EWCM starts...bc LH is surging then it shows up on opk!


----------



## Breaking Dawn

Ladies thx for all the support

I do not want to get my hopes up about this cycle. Bc I will just be crushed.

I now have a full out sore throat so I think it's unrelated to ttc. 

Last night for about 10-15 minutes I had very painful stomach ache...not sure if I ate something bad or not. It then stopped and it was gone.

I hate when random stuff like that happens bc then I think omg is that symptoms and then it just ends up being your body acting up during tww.


----------



## barbikins

Breaking Dawn said:


> Jazzbird said:
> 
> 
> Hello everyone. Nice to read all your updates.
> 
> I've had a good cycle so far - usually they are quite long but this month I got ewcm day 11 and opk peak cd13. We bd on both days (late night 11, morning on 13) but now I'm tying myself in knots over when I ovulated. My temps were: 36.2 (11), 36.2 (12), 36.3 (13), 36.5 (14), 36.6 (15 - today).
> 
> What do you guys think? I don't get an obvious increase just gradual. Felt too sick yesterday to bd with stomach pains and oh had agreed tonight but think it could be too late. Because my cycle varies so much I'm never prepared. I had it all planned out to bd every other day for a whole week and then I got surprise ewcm the earliest I've ever had it.
> 
> Hope everyone is doing well
> 
> Xxx
> 
> The EWCM before opk peak is common for me. I think you BD On the perfect days. I would think you O'd over nite on the 12/13 or morning of 13.
> 
> Also...my TCM dr was telling me that LH surge takes time to get from your bloodstream, to your urine, that's why blood LH testing appears to surge ahead of the opk. Based on this I can see why my EWCM starts...bc LH is surging then it shows up on opk!Click to expand...

Wait a second, really?! I had no idea there was a delay from blood stream to urine. Oh boy. So would that mean we could be ovulating earlier than we think?! My LH seems to be very consistent when I use OPK & when I've gone through the clinic. So it can't be that far off.


----------



## barbikins

WE have surging hormones in the TWW That is similar to pregnancy. It's the progesterone. I've stopped symptom spotting after I realized so many symptoms I had amounted to nothing & the months I was pregnant, I had no significant symptoms at all.


----------



## Jazzbird

I don't know too much about acid/alkaline theory although Chinese medicine advocates the same. I used to read a lot about cancer and how the rates are increasing even after allowing for better diagnosis and increasing age etc - suggesting environmental/lifestyle factors are responsible. It is really scary. 

I've always found it irritating that studies about meat don't differentiate between good quality, low fat organic meat and like brain tissue and spinal cord burgers and other junk food. 

I think I must have ovulated yesterday. I have dried up now. I totally know what you mean about ewcm and opk not lining up. It used to be 3 days difference but its got better. Perhaps its the herbs but my cycle varies so who knows. I will take your advice and bd again tonight. My oh keeps complaining that I just want him for his sperm. 

I'm now on my own mix of powdered herbs as recommended by Jayne Lyttleton. My cycle has been really great this month but I can never be sure what its down to. I stopped taking all the other supplements and have tried to let go this month.


----------



## Jazzbird

Thanks Breaking! This is really useful & reassuring.


----------



## gingmg

Start clomid next week. The pharmacy accidently filled my script for 100mg, but the doc said to take 50mg. Having a moral dilemma on what to do.


----------



## Briss

jazzbird, I am the same I always try not to get my hopes up about any cycle because when AF comes I fall into pieces and it's really hard to pull yourself together and move on to the next cycle. However, I am reading Zita West' book and she recommends positive thinking. she says that being negative during an IVF cycle in order to protect yourself from disappointment in case things won't work out is not a good strategy. on the contrary we should try and practice visualisation of a successful cycle and keep thinking positive. easier said than done! sore throat might be a good sign cos when your immune system is down you have better chances of implantation going well so hopefully this is all good. 

barbikins, even if there is some delay between the start of LH surge and you getting a + OPK you still have 24-36 hours from the surge until O and also once your egg is out it can be fertilised within 24 hours so basically you are fertile for about 2-3 days from your LH surge. Obviously sperm needs time to get to the egg but sometimes it can only take a few hours. also my temp usually shows O the day after + OPK so it's not that far off. I totally agree that symptoms spotting is counterproductive cos it's really hard to tell but I just cant help myself. I know my body so well now that whenever I feel something unusual in TWW I get my hopes up&#8230; 

gingmg, can you not just take half of 100mg?

Blythe, are you still temping vaginally? your temp seems odd, I do not think it ever went down in TWW? it might be a positive sign, do you have any symptoms? 

I went to have lunch with hubby, somehow it always lifts my mood even when we just had an argument (as always TTC related), he treated me to ice cream and cake (not most healthy choices but necessary in times of crisis) and told me that everything is going to be fine, for some reason I believe him. I then decided to be good and he got me large veggy juice, fruit smoothy and 2 shots of FRESHLY pressed wheatgrass juice!!!! I had no idea you can get these in London - https://www.crussh.com/menu/boosters-and-wheatgrass . I mean I wont say it's delicious (although they give you a piece of apple to make it easier) but definitely so much better than the sockets with dry wheatgrass that I've been forcing myself to drink. and it's completely fresh cos they make it right in front of you. I've got Crussh next to my office apparently so think I am going to do double shot daily now!


----------



## Breaking Dawn

barbikins said:


> Breaking Dawn said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jazzbird said:
> 
> 
> Hello everyone. Nice to read all your updates.
> 
> I've had a good cycle so far - usually they are quite long but this month I got ewcm day 11 and opk peak cd13. We bd on both days (late night 11, morning on 13) but now I'm tying myself in knots over when I ovulated. My temps were: 36.2 (11), 36.2 (12), 36.3 (13), 36.5 (14), 36.6 (15 - today).
> 
> What do you guys think? I don't get an obvious increase just gradual. Felt too sick yesterday to bd with stomach pains and oh had agreed tonight but think it could be too late. Because my cycle varies so much I'm never prepared. I had it all planned out to bd every other day for a whole week and then I got surprise ewcm the earliest I've ever had it.
> 
> Hope everyone is doing well
> 
> Xxx
> 
> The EWCM before opk peak is common for me. I think you BD On the perfect days. I would think you O'd over nite on the 12/13 or morning of 13.
> 
> Also...my TCM dr was telling me that LH surge takes time to get from your bloodstream, to your urine, that's why blood LH testing appears to surge ahead of the opk. Based on this I can see why my EWCM starts...bc LH is surging then it shows up on opk!Click to expand...
> 
> Wait a second, really?! I had no idea there was a delay from blood stream to urine. Oh boy. So would that mean we could be ovulating earlier than we think?! My LH seems to be very consistent when I use OPK & when I've gone through the clinic. So it can't be that far off.Click to expand...

Yes it's not far off and nothing that would cause a delay. But it explains why blood LH shows up first and then opk LH.


----------



## Breaking Dawn

barbikins said:


> WE have surging hormones in the TWW That is similar to pregnancy. It's the progesterone. I've stopped symptom spotting after I realized so many symptoms I had amounted to nothing & the months I was pregnant, I had no significant symptoms at all.

I know...and it completely sucks!!! 

Hate having these random things happen to my body during the tww...can't trust them at all.


----------



## Blythe

i like the look of those shots - i think there is a juice bar near charing cross so i will investigate next week.

im still temping V and i have no clue what has happened to my temps...i have zero symptoms. i wondered whether i was gearing up for another ovation [not even sure if thats possible] and i had a light line on opk this morning so may check again late tonight. 

the foot massager might turn up in the morning...i once again had a very solid nights sleep last night and feel asleep really early. i then awoke about 4ish but i felt alert and i have done more today at work than the rest of the week put together. Not sure its all down to the foot massager but i really notice a difference in my sleep afterwards in a really positive way.

i hope my new tea turns up tomorrow...i have ditched the green tea for the time being and will just have a black tea/coffee as a treat but have nettle, mate etc the rest of the time. im going to go to a posh health food shop tomorrow and stock up on healthy stuff. im hoping it will bring about a change in my outlook on things and maybe i will miraculously become positive in my outlook!!

Jazzbird - i usually get ewcm a few days before ovulation which of course is very frustrating as when i ovulate [or at least when FF indicates i have ovulated] i have none at all...i usually use pressed. i agree that those months where the temps, ewcm and opks are at odds with each other are very frustrating. im even thinking of getting one of these fern thingies [because i dont have enough to get obsessed about right]:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/150323902734?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2648


----------



## Briss

Blythe, I'd definitely start testing cos +OPK in TWW is a very good sign!!


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## Blythe

It was only a light line...i just tested but BFN. thats ok though as i have zero expectation this cycle.


----------



## Briss

sorry for me getting so excited it's just that I've seen so many times ladies getting a second line on OPK (although I always wonder why people do OPK in TWW, can you really ovulate twice in one cycle?) and then immediately getting BFP. I was so sure... anyway it's still too early. I just think anything unusual in TWW may be a good sign.

I am going crazy here, no idea how I will survive the next couple of days. the same story every cycle, why cant I change this pattern and just take it easy. if CREATE agreed to start IVF next cycle I'd have something to look forward to, now i know that i will just have to wait it out (nervously!) hoping for the best. not a great place. thankfully I have recorded Downton Abbey :) that will definitely take my mind off TTC.


----------



## Blythe

That's so funny you mention downton abbey. I saw it earlier on itv 3....I have never seen it before. They said the early ones start on Sunday night so I will record them. :)

I'm sorry you are feeling out of sorts.....it's a horrible time. Just try to take your mind off it and things will be easier in the morning. I meant to say your temps have been nice and steady this 2ww....something is helping.


----------



## Briss

apparently egg retrieval in a natural cycle IVF does not always end up in getting the egg even when there is one... It can be so dramatic I really need to prepare myself for this - https://babyandbump.momtastic.com/assisted-conception/1934573-first-natural-ivf-cycle-august-4.html


----------



## Blythe

Briss said:


> apparently egg retrieval in a natural cycle IVF does not always end up in getting the egg even when there is one... It can be so dramatic I really need to prepare myself for this - https://babyandbump.momtastic.com/assisted-conception/1934573-first-natural-ivf-cycle-august-4.html

This is the problem with natural IVF the pressure of getting that 1 egg out and then hoping that one egg will fertilise etc Etc but then again with meds there is the pressure of over stimulating or not responding etc etc. I think if you could plan within a 1 year timeframe and 3 cycle plan it would take the pressure off. Something will work at some point (hopefully some point soon). It might be IVF or it might be natural. You just have to try and maintain a balanced view. Yes the risks are there but the chance of pregnancy is better. If this did happen to you you would handle it and you would keep moving forward to the next cycle. 

Wouldn't it be wonderful if the iui works for that lady though.


----------



## Briss

I cant understand why they were unable to retrieve the egg, it seems like the follicle was not empty, i mean they would not proceed with IUI otherwise. I agree I so hope that dovkav will get her BFP this cycle. 

I wonder if it's possible in a natural cycle not to release an egg but then still go on and get the temp rise and sustain it for 2 weeks. if so, how would that happen? follicle/yellow body is supposed to release progesterone only after it released the egg, no egg seems to mean no yellow body and no progesterone so there should not be any temp rise?

love downton abbey, although it's a slightly romantic view of the service...


----------



## Breaking Dawn

Briss...I read that natural ivf post and I felt so bad reading her story. That is tough!

Wanted to let you ladies know I went to my acu appt today....this was my first appt since after IUIs.

I told her a out my sore throt..she asked of I had a fever along with it....did I get sick from anyone around me? She added a needle to my throat/under chin today for this. I didn't ask her...bc I don't want anther thing to think about but I wonder if sore throat can be a symptom for some ppl.and that's why she was trying to know about did I catch the sore throat, are other ppl around me sick.? Etc

I also told her about my pain stomach cramps last night which were centered below my belly button. She asked if it was also in my uterus - no it wasn't. She said some women feel implantation but it is cramping of the stomach or lower but it is one sided. .... to the left or the right . I very clearly did not have 1 sided pain....so I'm wondering if I had something to eat which didn't sit right. 

She then needled the following points: on top of my head, between my eyes, below my bottom lip, under my chin in the soft hollow, forearm/wrists both arms, inner ankle both legs, under knee both legs.

She also did moxibustion over my stomach.

She told me no spicy foods for the sore throat and drink warm liquids.

I see her next thurs...


----------



## Briss

looks like AF decided to put me out of my misery early this cycle :( my temp is down and I started spotting last night, how disappointing. not only did I not get BFP, I am not getting a normal length cycle either:( just when you least expect it something nasty happens. this cycle was strange actually. I started cramping after I had reflexology but the cramping continued for the following 3-4 days and at some point it got so strong I thought I was about to give birth (I was at work and had to rush to the toilet cos did not know what to expect), it was similar to a heavy AF type of cramping which I rarely have. hard to say whether it was a good or a bad sign. Reading Zita West's book on implantation issues it actually is possible that I had an embryo trying to implant (the timing seems right cos it was 8-11 DPO) but for some reason my endometrium rejected it. maybe I do have immune issues who knows. I do not think I ever had cramping in TWW. I do get 1-2 day just before AF occasional cramping but this was right in the middle of TWW and stopped completely about 2-3 days before AF.

sad... and DH went away with his mates for the entire bank holiday weekend. I probably looked so miserable cos he felt totally guilty for leaving me but he did leave me money for reflexology. am making myself a cake and as soon as I had my coffee with cake am off to the japanese center :) 

Plan for the next cycle: EPO EPO EPO! it's been a while since I took it and it did help me delay O a few times.


----------



## Juniperjules

Hi girls, 
i found something interesting & thought some of u might be interested too. I found a podcast on iTunes called 'Creating A Family- talk about infertility & adoption'. there's a huge list of topics u can listen to. It's lots of interviews with experts about various topics. 

The first one I listened too last nite was VERY interesting, it was called 'Can diet affect IVF Success?'. the interview was with an IVF doctor who has found that eating more protein & less carbs has dramatically improved his patients IVF success- some not even needing IVF once they started following his eating guidelines.

So this doc noticed that he had young, fit, healthy patients who were not getting pregnant naturally, & then when doing IVF, were producing poor quality embryos during IVF. So they started getting these patients to record what they ate & drank. They have analysed over 320 women (at the time of the podcast). once they started investigating they found that these women were eating very little protein & lots of carbs. so they started getting them to increase their protein & reduce their carbs. subsequently, they found than women eating OVER 25% protein had twice the amount of embryos avail for transfer & four times the pregnancy rate. 

Basically they came up with a guideline that stipulates that the patients needed to have less than 40% carbs in their diet & at least 25% protein- this improved egg quality, and their embryo quality was found to be at its maximum also.

They also started getting patients waiting to start IVF to follow this eating plan, 15-20% fell pregnant before starting treatment. 

I know that I definitely don't eat that much protein everyday, so now I'm on a mission! I've been out buying nuts, lentils,cheese, protein bars, yoghurt, cans of tuna & salmon for work lunches... I'm gonna give it a red hot go.


----------



## Juniperjules

Briss, am so sorry about AF. Such a disappointment even when u kind of expect it. But on the brighter side it means u can get on with ur MRI which means being able to move on quicker. 

I LOVE Downton Abbey! If u girls are watching it on TV in the UK is it series 3? If so i'll have to get my sister in Lobdon to buy it for me as soon as it goes to DVD!


----------



## Briss

Juniper, thanks that's very interesting. I started looking into what I eat but it's quite hard to say in % how much of what I eat in a day but approximately: 

1 piece of fish/meat/chicken (most days)
yogurt/piece of cheese/ricotta/feta (3-4 times a week) 
pack of greens
salad with assorted veggies and greens
nuts/raisins/honey
fruit (at least a few pieces a day)
chocolate (50-100 gr a day)
veggie/grapefruit juice (once a day)
cappuccino/coffee (once a day)
occasional cake/pastry/bread

actually looking at my list it does not look too bad (a bit boring but chocolate makes everything better)


----------



## Briss

i am watching downton abbey episode where one of the ladies got pregnant after not being able to for 18 years!!! and the doctor explains (what we already know) that it often happens that women get very fertile just before they go into full menopause. nice, a bit more hope

I do not think we have series 3 yet, they are showing it from the start before they move to series 3 probably closer to Christmas.


----------



## Briss

also this cycle my breasts were super sensitive the entire TWW, painful at times, they even quite noticeably doubled in size... (had a few incidence with my shirts getting undone in most interesting places at work...) maybe I was close to my BFP we will never know


----------



## Juniperjules

One of the interesting points this doctor made was that even though women may be eating 'healthy', ie good carbs, oats for breakfast, multigrain breads for lunch, brown pastas for dinner- the problem is two-fold, too much carbs, & simply not enough protein in a day. He went into the biology of why the protein is needed & therefore why it makes a difference.. I can't remember details bcos I was listening while walking around the supermarket, but it made sense. He said he gets patients to eat this way for at least 2-4 mths before starting IVF. He gave an example of a days food, as follows with a few options for each meal. He said he eats this way himself simply bcos its healthy:

Breakfast- scrambled eggs/ boiled eggs, unflavoured greek yoghurt

Lunch- chicken or turkey in a sandwich or with salad

Snacks- almonds, walnuts, cheese, protein bar, low carb protein shake, apple or any other fruit

Dinner- chicken, fish, lentils, soy beans, tofu, veggies 

He also said that the Asian population has the lowest success rate in IVF. He said he believes that it's due to the fact that the majority of the Asian diet is rice, very high in carbohydrate & very low in protein. 

He mentioned also another study recently done in California showed that men who ate almonds had better morphology & quality of sperm!


----------



## Blythe

im going to try and identify some good plant proteins. Today i brought some tofu but i have no clue what i will do with it. i made a massive green salad earlier with spring onion and chick peas and my new 'omega cool oil' instead of balsamic as i really want to avoid the obvious acidic stuff.

i did eat some choc but I'm aiming for 70/30 so thats ok.

i also got my yerba mate tea - a hint of light smokiness but otherwise fairly tasteless. i will try having it every morning in place of usual black tea w/ milk and sugar or coffee. 

Briss - i like that storyline....it makes me want to keep going as even though i don't feel it at the moment it can happen anytime.


----------



## Blythe

Briss said:


> also this cycle my breasts were super sensitive the entire TWW, painful at times, they even quite noticeably doubled in size... (had a few incidence with my shirts getting undone in most interesting places at work...) maybe I was close to my BFP we will never know

im so sorry to see the temp drop and spotting today :(


----------



## Briss

I do not think i can eat so much protein every day, also protein is considered acidic... tricky very tricky. They recommend measuring and recording urine pH at various times of the day. The idea is to achieve a urine pH of 7.5-8 for most part of the day by changing your food. I have been checking my Ph all day and it's rather strange: my saliva is more or less the same throughout the day between 6.5-6.75; my urine varies a lot: first thing in the morning is super acidic 5.75, then after I had coffee and cake (both acidic) it suddenly became alkaline at 7.5! then after I had huge bowl of salad it moved down to 7 but still OK. After drinking red clover/raspberry tea it turned 8.5!! I will continue observing it for a few more days. vagina was 4.5, also strange cos it seems super acidic but on the cover that's the normal range anything higher indicates an infection. so maybe trying to get vagina to be alkaline is not a great idea. 

Had reflexology today at that japanese place, it was a different lady and she had different technique it was not painful at all but so relaxing I thought at some point I fell asleep :) she also did my hands - lovely! and read my feet, I had no idea people read feet. she got a few things right about my personality and issues by just looking at my feet and toes :) she also said my feet and knees get cold very quickly which I know and recommended hot baths and drinks etc; but then that does not quite work with excess heat diagnosis from my Chinese doc. 

I put today as CD1 although I only got more or less AF like spotting late at night. maybe tomorrow will be proper flow and more like CD1 but I also feel my ovaries started to work today (it's fairly new I've been noticing last 6 months or so that I feel my ovaries working from the very start of my cycle) and the temp is down so decided it's today. Am gradually sliding into familiar feeling of total hopelessness and depression. I guess I was hoping for a BFP and that I wont need to go through MRI, IVF and the rest of it. I am actually very scared to do MRI, just trying not to think about it.

Started drinking raspberry leave and red clover tea and taking EPO


----------



## Juniperjules

Blythe said:


> im going to try and identify some good plant proteins. Today i brought some tofu but i have no clue what i will do with it. i made a massive green salad earlier with spring onion and chick peas and my new 'omega cool oil' instead of balsamic as i really want to avoid the obvious acidic stuff.
> 
> i did eat some choc but I'm aiming for 70/30 so thats ok.
> 
> i also got my yerba mate tea - a hint of light smokiness but otherwise fairly tasteless. i will try having it every morning in place of usual black tea w/ milk and sugar or coffee.
> 
> Briss - i like that storyline....it makes me want to keep going as even though i don't feel it at the moment it can happen anytime.

Blythe wot is Yerba mate tea? I keep seeing u & Briss mentioning it.. Let us know if u come up with some good plant proteins, will probably do some research myself in that area. 

Briss, wot ur experiencing is really crappy. I really feel for you. I too was just that little bit hopeful that a miracle might happen & I could get a bfp before actually starting IVF. I'm pretty comfortable with doing IVF, but even so I'd much prefer a natural BFP & to keep my money where it is... In MY bank account. I felt so angry on tues when AF arrived. Briss, Just try & stay focused on the possibilities ahead. Right now everything seems very bleak, & no one would blame u for feeling that way. But you've come this far.. Thru all the trials & tribulations. It's not easy but u you do have the strength to keep pushing thru. Us humans (especially of the female variety) can really put up with an awful lot- even when we think we are at breaking point. I know that from some of my own experiences over the last few years. I once saw a saying 'never give up on something that you can't go a day without thinking about'. That's wot keeps me going. 

Re Downton Abbey, yes I know which episode ur talking about. The mother gets pregnant. Can't wait for series 3 to come out! Mum & I have just started watching Mad Men on DVD- thats fab too. We're into the 2nd series now. It's very addictive, last nite we watched 3 episodes in a row! And the main man in it is very easy on the eye which helps too ; )


----------



## Blythe

Juniperjules said:


> Blythe said:
> 
> 
> im going to try and identify some good plant proteins. Today i brought some tofu but i have no clue what i will do with it. i made a massive green salad earlier with spring onion and chick peas and my new 'omega cool oil' instead of balsamic as i really want to avoid the obvious acidic stuff.
> 
> i did eat some choc but I'm aiming for 70/30 so thats ok.
> 
> i also got my yerba mate tea - a hint of light smokiness but otherwise fairly tasteless. i will try having it every morning in place of usual black tea w/ milk and sugar or coffee.
> 
> Briss - i like that storyline....it makes me want to keep going as even though i don't feel it at the moment it can happen anytime.
> 
> Blythe wot is Yerba mate tea? I keep seeing u & Briss mentioning it.. Let us know if u come up with some good plant proteins, will probably do some research myself in that area.
> 
> Briss, wot ur experiencing is really crappy. I really feel for you. I too was just that little bit hopeful that a miracle might happen & I could get a bfp before actually starting IVF. I'm pretty comfortable with doing IVF, but even so I'd much prefer a natural BFP & to keep my money where it is... In MY bank account. I felt so angry on tues when AF arrived. Briss, Just try & stay focused on the possibilities ahead. Right now everything seems very bleak, & no one would blame u for feeling that way. But you've come this far.. Thru all the trials & tribulations. It's not easy but u you do have the strength to keep pushing thru. Us humans (especially of the female variety) can really put up with an awful lot- even when we think we are at breaking point. I know that from some of my own experiences over the last few years. I once saw a saying 'never give up on something that you can't go a day without thinking about'. That's wot keeps me going.
> 
> Re Downton Abbey, yes I know which episode ur talking about. The mother gets pregnant. Can't wait for series 3 to come out! Mum & I have just started watching Mad Men on DVD- thats fab too. We're into the 2nd series now. It's very addictive, last nite we watched 3 episodes in a row! And the main man in it is very easy on the eye which helps too ; )Click to expand...

i like your advice to Briss - i have taken comfort from that too :flower:

as you know Briss recently posted some info about how we can create an acidic/alkaline environment in our bodies through what we eat and drink and i believe Yerba Mate is recommended as an alkaline goodie!! green tea is not recommended....confusingly many sites/authorities on this seem to contradict one another. some things do stand out though coffee/black tea is bad [she says with a sugary milky cup of black tea in front of her!] so I'm limiting myself to one every now and then. 

I'm thinking of the long term health benefits of this way of doing things - I'm also thinking about my skin and hair [my hair is still falling out having taken dhea for many months :(] BUT right now i am thinking about my fertility and hoping the yerba mate will help a bit:

https://fertilefoods.com/healthy-pregnancy/fertility/alkaline-foods-for-conception

briss - sorry you are feeling so blue. We just have to ride these crappy bits out and try and keep focused on whats ahead. i dont know why this stuff has to be so darn hard for some but so easy for others...its all so unfair. :hugs:


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## Briss

thank you ladies for your encouragements. am trying to get through this but at the moment feeling pretty miserable and scared of what's ahead. my left ovary is killing me. I guess the cyst is still there so probably would not be able to do IVF any way this cycle.

basically the idea is very simple - try and eat more alkaline food (vegetables basically, preferably green) in order to help your body cope with increasing levels of acidity. our modern lifestyle has very acidic effect on our bodies. having too much acid in our bodies is dangerous as (i) it creates a very good environment of nasty cells to live and multiply (increase levels of cancer in the last decades is a proof of that I think) and (ii) our bodies are using up alkaline reserves to turn acid around. becoming more alkaline should bring long terms health benefits (like not developing cancer) and improve your fertility. having said that the more I read on this topic the more i get confused: (i) info on what food is acidic is conflicting; (ii) different substances in our body have different Ph balance and in seems like some are supposed to be acidic.

Checked my urine first thing in the morning and it was super acidic at 5.5, I had lots of herbal tea before going to bed hoping it will help me stay alkaline through the night but I guess it's not how it works. they actually recommend to start checking your Ph from your second urine of the day, not the first. I can see why my first seems always at least 2-3 points more acidic then any subsequent samples. 

Mate tea is recommended as the ultimate alkalising replacement for tea/coffee because it has caffeine but unlike tea/coffee/green tea it has alkilising effect. buying it in tea pigs is quite expensive cos it's very cheap drink. I buy it from amazon for 5-7 pounds a kilo. Just tried this one - https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B004B61HWE/ref=oh_details_o01_s00_i01?ie=UTF8&psc=1 and can totally recommend it. I do not think it can replace your usual black tea/coffee but it definitely no worse than green tea which was my main healthy alternative drink but turns out to be acidic. I found that i can drink Mate all day long but I do mix it up with raspberry leave/red clover before O and nettles after O (because do not forget that Mate does have caffeine in it). If you google it you will see that Mate has plenty of vitamins and other goodies in it. there was some research linking it to cancer but from what i read I do not think that Mate is to blame so i got comfortable that i can drink it. 

sorry I seem to be going on and on about cancer all the time but considering the circumstances I just cant put it out of my mind. even if all turns out to be well i still take it as a signal that I need to change to minimise the risk of developing it in the future. having said that my mum does not quite believe in alkaline vs acidic, she said that theories of the kind come up every few years. she might be right but as long as we do not do anything extreme I think it's all good. 

Blythe, I am very happy to see your temp going back up!


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## Briss

there are quite a few interesting body care deals on here https://cities.groupon.co.uk/london/ I started thinking that I do not really treat myself enough, it always seems like a waste of money to indulge myself in massages and the like but actually it does help to relax and I am thinking proper relaxation is what I need for stress release on a regular basis. although I cant imagine spending 70-100 pounds a week on this but 20-30 pounds does not seem too bad and there seem to be so many available deals. I do not think you can go wrong with massage and I really appreciated the benefits of relaxation yesterday when I had reflexology. I realised that I never relax properly apparently I am always tense and on edge, I just felt so different after the treatment and ever since I can feel the tension is gradually building up again. I am definitely going to try and treat myself to something relaxing every week. not during period though, cant imagine having a massage during period.


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## Breaking Dawn

Briss....massages are fantastic!

I always fall asleep I get so relaxed....I also love body treatments where they scrub your body and lotion you up then you are swaddled in a wrap....sooooo relaxing!!!!


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## Blythe

Briss said:


> there are quite a few interesting body care deals on here https://cities.groupon.co.uk/london/ I started thinking that I do not really treat myself enough, it always seems like a waste of money to indulge myself in massages and the like but actually it does help to relax and I am thinking proper relaxation is what I need for stress release on a regular basis. although I cant imagine spending 70-100 pounds a week on this but 20-30 pounds does not seem too bad and there seem to be so many available deals. I do not think you can go wrong with massage and I really appreciated the benefits of relaxation yesterday when I had reflexology. I realised that I never relax properly apparently I am always tense and on edge, I just felt so different after the treatment and ever since I can feel the tension is gradually building up again. I am definitely going to try and treat myself to something relaxing every week. not during period though, cant imagine having a massage during period.


there are some fab deals on that site. i have two weeks off work from the 16th september so im going to get my hair cut and have a full body massage.


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## Jazzbird

I've not tried this spa in London but it gets good reviews. For £25 you can do a 3 hour rotation through their thermal experience. No massage but I bet it's really relaxing!

https://www.spa-london.org/ironmonger-row-baths/thermal-spa-ironmonger-row/


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## Blythe

Jazzbird said:


> I've not tried this spa in London but it gets good reviews. For £25 you can do a 3 hour rotation through their thermal experience. No massage but I bet it's really relaxing!
> 
> https://www.spa-london.org/ironmonger-row-baths/thermal-spa-ironmonger-row/

I would love to do that.....Must leave you feeling really invigorated. I love that these places are still going.


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## Jazzbird

I think I'm going to have to go back to acupuncture. This is my first month without it and my temps are low and haven't risen very much since ov. I feel I seem to respond well with herbs for kidney yin but for yang deficiency acu seems to be more effective. 

I did ask my oh to needle me but he groaned and moaned about it. Grrrrr! All he has to do is needle kid3 and st36 - that would be enough. 

Looks like I'm going to have to buy some moxa and do it myself. 

I'm also starting to question whether lifestyle plays a role at all with fertility. I saw a very overweight mum yesterday and a friend who has been anorexic conceived easily age 35.


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## Blythe

Jazzbird said:


> I think I'm going to have to go back to acupuncture. This is my first month without it and my temps are low and haven't risen very much since ov. I feel I seem to respond well with herbs for kidney yin but for yang deficiency acu seems to be more effective.
> 
> I did ask my oh to needle me but he groaned and moaned about it. Grrrrr! All he has to do is needle kid3 and st36 - that would be enough.
> 
> Looks like I'm going to have to buy some moxa and do it myself.
> 
> I'm also starting to question whether lifestyle plays a role at all with fertility. I saw a very overweight mum yesterday and a friend who has been anorexic conceived easily age 35.

when i went to acu last week she said my Ki yang was still low but that she would really need a blood test to see what was happening with Ki yin....

im not sure what she meant by that - i thought using TCM diagnostic tools she would be able to assess that without resorting to blood tests! having said that she has never looked at my tongue and only ever does a very quick pulse reading.

its a sod your DH is not on board for the treatments as it would have been so helpful...maybe you could do an acu session every couple of weeks. what do you think is the optimum in terms of frequency of acu sessions for ongoing fertility treatments? do you think once a week is enough?

i may go back to TCM but i feel like turning my back on everything at the moment as i have had no gains from anything really....

Briss - i read on someone's blog about rebounding and that it is great when on detox/alkaline diet as it gets all the cells pumping. i very nearly brought one yesterday. maybe just using a skipping rope pre ovulation would also do the trick!

i had a terrible nights sleep and then recall i had a massive strong pot of yerba mate tea in the afternoon so it must have been the caffeine. i tend to avoid caffeine post midday and now i remember why. Started getting familiar pre AF pangs but i sort of written this month off already. 

what with just 2-3 hours sleep last night i feel hollow today - not great when AF is looming. im so done with all this crap.


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## Briss

Blythe, at Dr Zhai's they always ask for blood test and wont give herb prescription without it. so maybe TCM practitioners are moving ahead with the times and changing their practices to make use of western diagnostic tools. they also are not that keen on acu and it's considered a relaxing addition to your appointment; herbs are the main treatment. they seem to think that as long as you take the herbs daily, doing acu every 2 weeks is sufficient. 

I think it will be safer if I do not do any exercise (except yoga which I still cant motivate myself to do) until I have these cysts. who knows it might have grown, I am afraid to make it worse mainly because I can feel my left ovary/cyst when i move or walk.

I was crying the entire day yesterday, was not hysterical of anything but just could not help tears. I went out for my wheatgrass shot but had to return fairly quickly as I just could not face people, it's like I am in mourning. I am in some sort of state of very deep sadness not just TTC related but more generally cant see any point in anything and everything I do seems meaningless, and I am very afraid of the future. maybe it's a sign of being old but I used to have hopes for the future and now I just have fear of future. over the last 3-4 years my life has been getting worse and no matter what I do it's just getting worse. I know I should not complain cos so many people are going through most terrible things in life like war but it's just not a good sign that these days I can only calm myself down not because I hope for the brighter future but because I know if I do not stop complaining it may get worse. I could not sleep last night, stayed up until 2 am (maybe due to drinking Mate in the evening actually) and then woke up before 8 with very bad headache. I know I should not be using up my Yin like that before O when I really need all Yin I could get to improve egg quality... 

Blythe, I so hope AF will stay away, we really need some good news on this thread. 

Jazzbird, I agree if you can see definite improvement with acu/herbs you should stick with it. it seems to have helped so many women conceive naturally. I have moxa box at home but when I use it it smell up the entire flat and the smell stays for days afterwards so i do not use it very often. I also wonder when I see people with all sorts of conditions due to poor diet and lifestyle choices getting pregnant. life stopped making any sense to me a while ago. 

breaking dawn, in the end I got this offer https://www.groupon.co.uk/deals/dealbank_en_gb/club-kensington-beauty/24790239 it's hour and a half and you can mix and match 2-3 treatments. I will book it as soon as AF is done


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## Blythe

Briss said:


> Blythe, at Dr Zhai's they always ask for blood test and wont give herb prescription without it. so maybe TCM practitioners are moving ahead with the times and changing their practices to make use of western diagnostic tools. they also are not that keen on acu and it's considered a relaxing addition to your appointment; herbs are the main treatment. they seem to think that as long as you take the herbs daily, doing acu every 2 weeks is sufficient.
> 
> I think it will be safer if I do not do any exercise (except yoga which I still cant motivate myself to do) until I have these cysts. who knows it might have grown, I am afraid to make it worse mainly because I can feel my left ovary/cyst when i move or walk.
> 
> I was crying the entire day yesterday, was not hysterical of anything but just could not help tears. I went out for my wheatgrass shot but had to return fairly quickly as I just could not face people, it's like I am in mourning. I am in some sort of state of very deep sadness not just TTC related but more generally cant see any point in anything and everything I do seems meaningless, and I am very afraid of the future. maybe it's a sign of being old but I used to have hopes for the future and now I just have fear of future. over the last 3-4 years my life has been getting worse and no matter what I do it's just getting worse. I know I should not complain cos so many people are going through most terrible things in life like war but it's just not a good sign that these days I can only calm myself down not because I hope for the brighter future but because I know if I do not stop complaining it may get worse. I could not sleep last night, stayed up until 2 am (maybe due to drinking Mate in the evening actually) and then woke up before 8 with very bad headache. I know I should not be using up my Yin like that before O when I really need all Yin I could get to improve egg quality...
> 
> Blythe, I so hope AF will stay away, we really need some good news on this thread.
> 
> Jazzbird, I agree if you can see definite improvement with acu/herbs you should stick with it. it seems to have helped so many women conceive naturally. I have moxa box at home but when I use it it smell up the entire flat and the smell stays for days afterwards so i do not use it very often. I also wonder when I see people with all sorts of conditions due to poor diet and lifestyle choices getting pregnant. life stopped making any sense to me a while ago.
> 
> breaking dawn, in the end I got this offer https://www.groupon.co.uk/deals/dealbank_en_gb/club-kensington-beauty/24790239 it's hour and a half and you can mix and match 2-3 treatments. I will book it as soon as AF is done

that deal looks great :)

sorry you feel so sad...

i have just sat here for 5 mins trying to find some words of comfort for you but i don't have any today as i feel quite hopeless [i will have some for you before the week is out though i promise]. This is a miserable business and i can only offer you a virtual :hugs:


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## Juniperjules

Briss, im also sending u a virtual hug x

I know something about how u are feeling...& how desolate a place it truly is... bcos I felt the way u are feeling for an entire year. For me it was a combination of a death in the family, relationship issues, homesickness for the UK, desperately missing all my family in Scotland, hating my job & the company i worked for with a passion, feeling like i had no purpose in life... and i really just felt like i was existing- not really living. 

one day i realised i was just so depressed & i had to get some help. So i did. i started seeing a psychologist. and she was fantastic. it was the best money ive ever spent. i have a mum & a sister who i am incredibly close to & talk to about anything.. but even family & friends just dont cut it sometimes. sometimes u do need someone who really knows wot their talking about. who can tease things out & make everything make sense. i was at a point where i was just a wreck. id completely lost myself. she helped me to find myself again. i never used to put much value on counselling. but im now a believer... heck, i then went on to do nursing & work in mental health. i try & do just a teeny bit for my patients of wot my psychologist did for me. 

Sometimes it is impossible to put ur finger on exactly why or what takes u to that dark place Briss- it's accumulative I guess.. Lots of things that individually mightn't cause too much damage, but which together have added up.. Your probably like me, stoic, high functioning, capable- no one would realise that ur falling apart on the inside bcos u look perfect on the outside. To me, you do sound depressed. Don't be afraid to ask for help. It's really worth it. Your worth it.


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## Briss

Blythe, thanks! I know I can always rely on your support. I know I will feel better after O, somehow however hopeless I feel before O it all changes and I begin to hope once again only to be disappointed later. I feel like I am flowing with my hormones in circles


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## Briss

Juniper, thank you! I think I shared on the other thread that I am still mourning my beloved father, i find it difficult to talk about it, it will be 2 years in September, i have to admit it's not getting easier but I do not allow myself to cry too often as it may harm my TTC chances so I only cry during my period. obviously getting a grandchild would make everything better, nothing else will but I am not being successful. I guess I realised that the only thing that matters in this life is to continue, pass it onto the next generation. if you cant do that everything else is worthless. I am just sorry I did not understand that when I was younger. I hope it's not too late but cycle after cycle I am getting more and more disappointed that I am not able to do the only thing I am meant to do. I know being depressed does not help but I cant suddenly become happy and I do not think counseling can help. I lost my fiancé when I was 20, it was a terrible shock and my heart started to play up after a few weeks of constant hysteria so my parents took me to see a doctor who recommended counseling, it turned out to be a very bad idea, I mean I was just unlucky with a person, she was totally useless and made me feel guilty for mourning him, he was not my husband and it was apparently selfish thing to do to have this grief. At the time I did not realise she was wrong because I was young and trusted any "professional" but her advice added greatly to my condition not improving for a long while. feeling grief and guilt for feeling that at the same time was just too much. I guess it just taught me that people who do counseling do not always know what they are on about. you are lucky you got a person who helped you. I am very fragile so I am afraid to trust the wrong person. actually my mother is psychologist by education and she understand human nature really well. but there is no easy way out of our situation, you just have to live through it the best you can. talking to you ladies, helps a lot, having something to do is also beneficial. 

also I do not think depression stops me getting pregnant, poor sperm count does. I am feeling guilty for staying with my DH despite this fact because it feels like I am sacrificing the most important thing for him and surely he cant be worth it. but then i believe that when we chose a man it's not just due to attraction or emotions, the underlying reason for it is in part biological, sort of, we somehow chose the right half to mix our genes with. I really want to make it work with him.

I probably sound very dark. sorry about that, I am just not in a good place right now.


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## Jazzbird

Briss - I'm sorry you feel so sad and hopeless. I think everything you are feeling is natural with TTC. It does make you question what is important. Right up until last year, I always saw having children as a huge sacrifice - limits to personal freedom. But when we started trying (because on balance, I feel it really is something I want to do), oh how the tables turned for me. I realised that all the important decisions I have made in life - getting a well paid, but boring job, buying a house with more bedrooms than we need, picking a city with good schools etc. all revolved around my perceived future of having children. I now so wish I had started earlier. But hey, that's not the way the cookie crumbled. Now I feel very much - what is the point if you don't have children? What will I do with my money when I die ... what is the point in earning anymore than I need to live on???

But there are other fulfilling, purposeful paths in life. I am in no way trying to belittle your feelings, but I do know many much older women who have had absolutely wonderful & fulfilling lives without children - some who desperately wanted them & some who didn't.

I have had counselling in the past, and I didn't find it helped me much either. I think because we spent so much time just talking about how painful past experiences have affected me, but no time on how to move on. This is not to say that there aren't some great counsellors out there. But perhaps a life coach might be more help - or cognitive behavioural therapy. Someone who can give you tools to move forwards. There is an infertility charity & they have counsellors who you can see & support groups. Perhaps this is worth a look. 

My other piece of advice is to find a sociable hobby of some description. Something new, something you enjoy or something you've always fancied doing. Having a new experience, spending some time and energy occupying your brain with something other than TTC will be refreshing and relaxing for you. Or perhaps even getting involved with some charity work. This time away will give you brain time to process everything & you will come back with a renewed perspective. I really can't stress how important this is. 

I know you don't feel depression can prevent TTC but I really do believe in the mind body connection. There was a study with old age pensioners where they measured a range of biological ageing signs and then arranged for them to spend the day in a centre surrounded by memorabilia of their 20s. After this day, they remeasured all their biological ageing signs again and found that their bodies were reversing the signs of ageing. I wish I could remember where I read this study - it was fascinating. Simply by thinking young, they were being young. What you perceive to be true is often what becomes true. 

We all have to believe that a child is a possibility for us & believe its a case of when, not if.

Blythe - I've not heard of anyone measuring blood for yin deficiency. I would ask what exactly are they measuring. Perhaps this is a herbal regime - as I'm not qualified in herbs. The thing is is that yin & yang are concepts - and so the range of possible symptoms for say yin deficiency (hot flushes, insomnia, agitation, dry skin/eyes, strong smelling urine etc.) don't have to be present for you to have yin deficiency. You may appear completely healthy but still have yin deficiency in some way - which makes me think, how can they be so exact as to measure the blood & diagnose in that manner.

Re: moxa (I think this was Briss who mentioned moxa) - you can buy smokeless moxa which doesn't stink your whole house out
e.g. https://www.harmonymedical.co.uk/product/433-smokeless-moxa-rolls - although can't vouch for the quality of this product. You light it like a cigar and hold it close enough to the acupuncture point so that you can feel the heat. When it gets too hot, remove it for a few seconds then reapply. Keep doing this for about 5 times. You can do it say once a week.

Ren 4 is a good point in the follicular phase just after menstruation. This point is for Kidney Yin & Kidney Yang. I'm not too sure on whether using moxa post ovulation is a good idea. I will look it up.

Basically using moxa is like a double whammy to the system. Although you need to be careful using this if you have any HEAT symptoms, or empty heat from Yin Deficiency as moxa is warming. If you use it on St36 - this is a great point for boosting Qi & warming yang. If you use it on Spleen 10 it improves blood flow to the uterus. 

In answer to whether or not herbs or acupuncture for fertility - I think herbs are the preferred method of treatment in China for most health issues. However, I think acupuncture is very good for promoting ovulation and moving energy at certain points in the cycle.


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## Juniperjules

Briss, absolutely no need for u to apologise to anyone in here. I'm sorry, I do now remember you explaining ur story a while back... I don't blame u for being put off counselling after the experience you had. That person sounded just awful. 

Life's not easy us it... I know myself that I have many blessings in my life. Things I am very lucky & grateful to have. But sometimes I also feel like putting my fist thru a wall when I look at how my life got to where it is right now. Almost 40 & no children. It actually shocks me sonetimes when i realise where i am in this situation. im like "f*#k!!! WTF happened to me?? how did everyone else manage it but here i am running out of time??!!" man i made some bad life decisions... but actually i didnt.. i just kind of let life happen to me. But maybe thats even worse. i shouldve been harder on my OH. I do blame him frequently bcos he was never ready to have kids. I would've had a baby 10 yrs ago, but he wasn't up for it. Finally he's ready now. Hopefully it's not too late. 

Im on my iphone & am not certain but i think it was u that said u wanted to do more things to spoil urself? that sounds like a positive thing to do. Be kind to yourself. Have massages, warm bubble baths with candles burning, have facials, do physical things that heighten ur senses. find things to do that distract ur mind & make u feel good. Sometimes learning to self soothe is truly the best medicine.


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## Briss

ladies, thank you so much for your support!!! just reading your responses is helping me get through this and it's sort of therapeutical even just to be heard and understood. 

how hard it must have been for women when there was no internet...


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## Jazzbird

I've been watching the latest season of Breaking Bad ... such a FAB series. Anyway, watching this one particular episode & being a jazz singer in my spare time, I feel the need to pass on this amazing version of an old jazz standard song that was playing in the background:

"on a clear day, you can see forever and ever more ..." 

We all need a clear day right now 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yxf1IFgPH5s


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## Jazzbird

I've got my AMH results and an ultrasound scan of my ovaries on wed - I'm getting nervous. Has anyone had the scan done? What is it like? Is it like a smear test? 

I'm worried the results may be bad but feel I need some reassurance ... 

Have any of you got AMH results?


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## Blythe

Jazzbird said:


> I've got my AMH results and an ultrasound scan of my ovaries on wed - I'm getting nervous. Has anyone had the scan done? What is it like? Is it like a smear test?
> 
> I'm worried the results may be bad but feel I need some reassurance ...
> 
> Have any of you got AMH results?

My results are in my signature. Try not to get obsessed by those....they are useful for IVF and assessing response to drugs. The scan does not hurt at all....they should be able to let you know how many resting folicles you have or size of egg depending on CD. Again my afc is in signature. Please report back. :hugs:

Thanks for post earlier. A clear day with positive thoughts would be just the ticket now. I used to listen to a fair bit of stan Getz. I dont listen to much music nowadays though.


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## Briss

Jazzbird, scan is nothing to worry about, it's not painful at all depending on your CD they will able to say what your ovaries are like, how many follicles are there, your lining etc, it's very helpful. I used to do scans at least once a year just to make sure everything is in order. good luck with your AMH. I had mine done earlier this year and it was very low at 1.38 It is disappointing cos it means conventional IVF may not work for me and some think it also means the quality of eggs is not great. Let us know how it goes.


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## Juniperjules

Ditto wot the other girls have said Jazzbird. AFC ultrassound is completely painless. No speculum required, just a long thin probe thingy which doesn't hurt a bit! Sometimes they might take a few minute to find ur ovaries but don't panic, the ovaries are free floating so they move a bit. And apparently ur AFC can change from month to month, that's wot the U/S woman told me anyway.

I was mostly nervous about AMH. Mine was 42.8p/mol. Which would otherwise indicate PCOS. But I only had 8 follicles. My new FS didn't bat an eyelid other than to say 'fantastic', so if she's happy I'm happy. 

Good luck with it! 

Blythe, funny u mention not listening to music much these days. It's a pity how when were younger music is often such a huge part of our lives, then we get older & other things distract us. I also haven't been listening to much music in the last few years. I'm a singer too as I've mentioned, & hadn't been singing either. The last few months I've made an effort to change it. Am doing a gig with OH once a month, & we've just finished recording a demo to try and get a few more. It's also just nice bcos OH & I lost that for a while. One of the things we did together & enjoyed. Am trying to remedy that!


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## Jazzbird

Thanks ladies ill report back with my results!

Ooooh juniper tell me about what kind of music you sing. I basically do jazz gigs but I'm a pianist as well so I do solo gigs and sing a mix of folk, pop, blues, bluegrass 

I think everyone on this thread should get back into listening to music! Songs can really lift your mood or offer you an outlet. It's good to take you out of ttc for a while.

Today everyone should listen to "September" by earth wind and fire and dance to it seeing as we're nearly in September!


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## Briss

I was going through my medical history and looked at various scan reports I've had over the last 15 years. it's interesting that before they never made sense to me, now when I read them I understand everything because of all th&#1091; knowledge on our reproductive system I was forced to acquire as part of our TTC efforts. One thing I discovered is that I was previously diagnosed with possible chronic endometritis (not to be confused with endometriosis). It's an inflammation of the internal layer of the womb. My FS never mentioned it, lap/hsg/hysteroscopy/biopsy also did not bring it up (but these procedures can be the cause of it as well). Is it possible that I may still have it but they just missed it? the cramping I had last cycle mid TWW made me think that there might be something wrong with my lining. 

I got my foot massager delivered today, so exciting! cant wait to try it. Also booked my 1.5 h massage for Thursday. something relaxing to look forward to. 

btw, my third CA 125 got down from 45 to 34 which is below the threshold. positive starts at 35. they consider it as negative. I was hoping it reduced lower than that but I guess I should be happy it did not increase. 

re music, I actually listen to music almost every day on the way to work and also during my lunch walk but it's nothing inspiring just something rhythmical to help me walk fast enough. occasionally I listed to classical music in a taxi on the way home when I finish work late, love it! so relaxing


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## Juniperjules

Jazbird, my voice suits folky, acoustic stuff. Thats basically wot i sing! My OH says I should've been a hippy! We do all sorts of covers, Simon & Garfunkel, the Beatles, Alison Krauss, John Denver, James Taylor, Emmylou Harris, anything with good harmonies basically. We do mostly old stuff.... im trying to find the time for us to learn/ rehearse some newer stuff : ) We've been singing together for 18yrs so we know each others voices well, we hadn't done any gigs together for a few years, but were doing some again now which is great. 

I like ur earth wind & fire suggestion ; )


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## Jazzbird

Juniper - how lovely you two can play music together. There is that saying - those who pray together stay together, but since I'm not religious I think of it as those who play (music) together stay together! I wish my OH liked to play with me (he can strum on the guitar) but he thinks I'm a musical snob and our tastes don't overlap much.

I love Alison Krauss. I saw her in concert in London a few years ago. For newer stuff, perhaps try Bon Iver? He's pretty folky and I've heard some nice versions of his music with vocal harmonies.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sy3lJIxyZ60

And this is tom crouch's version which I really like & he puts in harmonies in last verse which are very ethereal:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrKwIreUf6s

Birdy did a cover of his Skinny Love which is fab and was picked up by Radio 1. I met her at my singing teacher's studio - she has lessons there. She's so sweet and very shy.

This morning I got a sudden temp rise (36.92) - I'm around 6 dpo. My post ovulation temps are never that high (36.5 - 36.6). Im trying not to read too much into it but its hard not to get excited.


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## Briss

jazzbird, your temp rise is very exiting but wait 1-2 more days and if it stays up it's a very good sign. fingers crossed!


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## Blythe

Briss said:


> I was going through my medical history and looked at various scan reports I've had over the last 15 years. it's interesting that before they never made sense to me, now when I read them I understand everything because of all th&#1091; knowledge on our reproductive system I was forced to acquire as part of our TTC efforts. One thing I discovered is that I was previously diagnosed with possible chronic endometritis (not to be confused with endometriosis). It's an inflammation of the internal layer of the womb. My FS never mentioned it, lap/hsg/hysteroscopy/biopsy also did not bring it up (but these procedures can be the cause of it as well). Is it possible that I may still have it but they just missed it? the cramping I had last cycle mid TWW made me think that there might be something wrong with my lining.
> 
> I got my foot massager delivered today, so exciting! cant wait to try it. Also booked my 1.5 h massage for Thursday. something relaxing to look forward to.
> 
> btw, my third CA 125 got down from 45 to 34 which is below the threshold. positive starts at 35. they consider it as negative. I was hoping it reduced lower than that but I guess I should be happy it did not increase.
> 
> re music, I actually listen to music almost every day on the way to work and also during my lunch walk but it's nothing inspiring just something rhythmical to help me walk fast enough. occasionally I listed to classical music in a taxi on the way home when I finish work late, love it! so relaxing


Hey some good news on the ca 125 front (will you get it tested again?) and wonderful news on delivery of foot massager front!! I'm desperate to know what you think :)

I'm just waiting for AF. It's due on Friday, the same day I'm going to see my work friend and her 12 week old. If she announces her second pregnancy before I get pregnant il struggle as I started trying before she even met her husband. Would be happy fit her but those things really make you stop and think about just how long it's been. 

I saw something today about cognitive behavioural therapy and they recommend wearing an elastic band around wrist and to ping it to stop spiralling into negative thought patterns. "It takes conscious effort to stop negative thoughts, and this is a useful and sharp reminder." I might try this!


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## Briss

I was told that I am likely to be evicted from my new office to make way to a new partner&#8230; how annoying this office was one of few things I enjoyed in life &#8230; I mean I do not care very much as I really hope I wont need this office for more than a year but just goes to show how fragile things are, anything can be taken from you at any moment 

I've going to some length to get my daily fresh wheatgrass fix but not successfully today, my nearest crussh was closed, and two others did not have wheatgrass! 

I also find it hard to meet friends with children that came out long after we started TTC. I somehow need to survive the baby shower in September. any idea what I can give as a present? 

I was going through my old medical records and came across my pregnancy scan, I have no idea why I kept it all these years it's been 13 years! how can life play these nasty tricks on you&#8230; needless to say I was in pieces 

cognitive behavioural therapy sounds interesting, please do share anything you find useful.

Actually I think I do believe in "things happen when you least expect it" I just do not know how I can "least expect" BFP while that's the only thing on my mind day and night and nothing else matters to me.


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## Breaking Dawn

Hi Ladies!

Juniper & Jazz - thumbs up to bringing music to this thread and as well on being singers. I love music but honestly can't sing to save my life :haha: oh and I loooooooooove to dance! 

Briss - glad to hear that the CA number went down, may not be as lows as you wanted but as low as it got to is really really good!!!!! Sometimes the smallest improvement can be the start of brighter days :flower:

Blythe - I've been dealing with everyone around me getting pregnant as well...most everyone who got married the year I was is pregnant or had a baby this year. the ppl who got married the year after me are pregnant or are now ttc. and I have a couple ppl who are having their 2nd. its soooo hard...seeing everyone get pregnant and have babies. I just feel like why me :( those are my down days....and then I try to think ok i'm next! 

AFM - i'm 8dpo/iui....i'm supposed to go in for bloodwork on Saturday so in a matter of days i'll know if this iui worked or not....and if it didn't it's going to be so so so crushing ...i'm already trying to mentally prepare myself that we need to move on to ivf. I think I shared my IUI stats with you ladies this month - and if I can't get pregnant with 100mil sperm with +90% and 2-3 good size follies....then is it really really bad luck or is something wrong?

on top of all these thoughts i'm having sore nipples and breasts....which i'm trying to be realistic about bc if I look back at my notes for previously cycles ive been on clomid/estrace and had sore nipples the entire tww and then it stopped and the netx day I got AF. so I can't even trust my symptoms on a medicated cycle!

:dohh:

this wknd can't come fast enough AND it's coming too soon...its nice to live in this unknown bliss where I am not confirmed bfp but also not confirmed bfn. if I don't know it's a bfn at least I still have HOPE!


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## Briss

Blythe, I am loving my foot massager!!! I could sit there for hours! it's actually surprisingly strong. I also wear socks.

Breaking Dawn, thank you! I am so hoping this IUI worked and this is it for you. it might be better to occupy your thoughts with plans for IVF so you have plan B and this will distract you a little. your stats were fantastic and really promising but it's really hard to say why things do or do not work out. I also have sore breasts in TWW but not every cycle so it does give me encouragement but I noticed that while I was taking Chinese herbs my breasts were usually not sensitive in TWW. I am with you on living in the "unknown bliss" I find it easier to be in TWW when i can at least hope I might be pregnant than before O when I definitely know I am not.


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## Blythe

Briss said:


> Blythe, I am loving my foot massager!!! I could sit there for hours! it's actually surprisingly strong. I also wear socks.
> 
> Breaking Dawn, thank you! I am so hoping this IUI worked and this is it for you. it might be better to occupy your thoughts with plans for IVF so you have plan B and this will distract you a little. your stats were fantastic and really promising but it's really hard to say why things do or do not work out. I also have sore breasts in TWW but not every cycle so it does give me encouragement but I noticed that while I was taking Chinese herbs my breasts were usually not sensitive in TWW. I am with you on living in the "unknown bliss" I find it easier to be in TWW when i can at least hope I might be pregnant than before O when I definitely know I am not.

Yeahhhhh! I'm so glad you like it. I had mine out last night and just awoke from a good nights sleep :)


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## Jazzbird

Morning ladies! Did anyone see midwives yesterday? They had a woman of 48 who gave birth to a little boy after several years of ivf. Her chances of conceiving were low so she had to go privately. Her husband (aged 50) also had sperm issues. 

Thought that might bring some reassurance to you all. 

My temp dropped back this morning. It was just a freak spike.


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## gingmg

The nurse from the clinic told me today to make an IVF consult appointment. I'm gutted.


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## Jazzbird

Ginmg ... What happened?


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## gingmg

Took the last 2 months off after my breakdown. Called the clinic on CD 1 to start another cycle. She said to make an IVF consult during this cycle to prepare for the next few months. 2 months ago I was just a lesbian with no sperm, now all of a sudden they want to move me along? I've never even done a medicated or monitored cycle, cuz like I said, they were just providing their services. Now that i am 35 I have met my insurance's criteria for infertility treatments. I'll make the appointment, but I'm going to ask for a couple monitored/medicated cycles first. Just so angry, trying to look at the good in this, but its hard.


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## gingmg

And its all my fault because I haven't quit smoking yet. I kept saying i would quit when I found out, but it never happened, and now I know the reason I'm not pregnant is the smoking. I keep trying to quit. I actually went 2 days, until the nurse called and mentioned IVF. I lost it and picked up a cigarette. I'm so angry with myself. I've tried everything, hypnosis, accupunture, the patch, the gum, meds, nothing works. I thought a BFP would be just what I needed to quit, but I'm not going to get one until I'm a non smoker, and I have no idea how much damage I have already done. I'm scared I've ruined my chances and that its too late. I hope its not too late.


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## gingmg

Please don't judge me. I'm not proud to be a smoker, its soooooooooooooooo bloody hard to quit. I keep trying and one of these days I will make it. I have the patch on again.


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## Jazzbird

Gingmg - absolutely no one here would ever judge you. TTC is really stressful, I'm not surprised you're finding it hard to give up smoking. What's the first thing you naturally want to do when you're stressed ... light up, I'm sure.

It is irritating that they have referred you straight to IVF - but that's because they operate with a list of criteria that they are being measured on. Not because anyone has given up on you. If you are in US (you talk about insurance), I'm sure more than anything there is a motivation to get you pregnant as quickly as possible with as low a cost as possible to the insurance company. So perhaps thats why they refer you for IVF so quickly. It is not a reflection on your ability to conceive.

I have the other problem in UK, the doctors resist all requests for tests & treatment in the 6 minutes they saw me. They just quoted stats at me saying I needed to try for another year first (and I'm 36, soon to be 37). So I've opted to pay for the tests privately. 

Doctors get it wrong all the time - especially with fertility. I've lost count of the number of times they have told someone I know they will have problems conceiving, only to find out they have no problems and vice versa. They certainly do not know everything.

You don't know that smoking is the cause. I know plenty of examples of mothers who smoked, drank, took drugs, ate terribly & were overweight who conceived easily. You are trying to give up and that's what counts. Getting frustrated at yourself is just going to make you more stressed and make you more inclined to want to smoke. Perhaps you could try some mindfulness training? When you feel the urge, mindfulness would train you to stop, breathe deeply and examine exactly what the urge feels like. You can just sit and observe your cravings - where in the body do they arise? what do your physical symptoms feel like? And you can also start to meditate on how you would feel after you had finished a cigarette ... it *might* give you a strategy to learn to sit with the craving .. I don't know, I'm not a specialist, but mindfulness is a brilliant tool.

Unfortunately I don't know so much about what to do about giving up smoking. I'm an acupuncturist, but in my humble opinion, I don't think acupuncture really cuts the mustard with giving up smoking. You say you've tried hypnosis - is this with a professional hypnotist? I've tried hypnosis to stop skin picking (we all have our demons), but I didn't find it helpful. I think I didn't feel comfortable with my practitioner. I have however, found hypnosis CDs extremely helpful for a variety of complaints. And they are cheap. Have you tried Paul McKenna's stop smoking?

I think it takes on average one year to conceive for 35+ and I think I remember you've been TTC for a similar time to me (8 months?). Many of my younger friends (30-33) also took over a year to conceive. It could just be that annoying factor of timing. 

You are too young and it is too soon in the TTC game to give up. I think you're idea of going through a couple of monitored cycles first is a good one. 

It is so hard for us not to beat ourselves up with our life decisions, but I know that regretting or wishing we had made different choices will not help us.


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## Jazzbird

And today's TTC cheer up song is ... Treasure by Bruno Mars. It would make me happy to think of all the TTC ladies on this forum gyrating away to this disco classic today 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPvuNsRccVw


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## Briss

Blythe, I spent the entire evening attached to my foot massager! I will probably do the same today. I also want to get these flip flops just cant understand why they are so bloody expensive! https://www.amazon.co.uk/Kenkoh-Jap...&sr=8-2&keywords=reflexology+massage+slippers I realised that my feet are really hard, probably because I only wear heels so maybe if I walk in these slippers at home they will get softer with time. 

Gingmg, no one is going judge you here, you obviously know that already but unfortunately smoking is a huge issue when TTC and it ages ovaries. having said that I never smoked and my ovaries still aged quicker than I have. the sooner you quit the more chances you will have. it's not too late. I know how hard it is to quit, my brother is a smoker and it's almost impossible to get him to quit. although a friend of mine smoked a pack of Marlboro a day for years and then quit, just like that without anything and she is not a very strong person. She explained that something clicked in her head, I find it hard to believe but it worked. if you find a way to quit please do share cos I really want my brother to quit and no idea how. I struggled to quit coffee, for almost a year I struggled every single morning and it was not getting any easier but with coffee my motivation was not as strong because there is no definite prove that it affects fertility. with smoking unfortunately it has been proved. Why do you need to go through IVF? Can you not just take donor sperm and do at home insemination? That was my plan if hubby's sperm refuses to play ball. I totally agree with you that you need to try monitored/medicated cycles before moving to IVF. 

I agree with jazzbird on meditation/ mindfulness, I know it's not a great example but I do not have another one. as you know I cant live without chocolate so when I was trying to limit my sugar intake I recall I was craving sugar like mad in the afternoon cos I'd usually go and get Sinnamon swirl with hot chocolate and my craving got really bad like unless I have it now I cant do anything else, then I started imagining myself having it but only I imagined all unpleasant things associated with it like feeling full and sick afterwards and did that for about 30 minutes before I realised that actually I can do without it and if I get nettle tea I will feel much better which I did. so basically it's all in the head. I did similar thing with coffee and it worked but it just never got easier

I have a colleague who quit smoking using hypnosis, but then you said you already tried it and it did not work. 

Jazszbird, thanks for sharing the story from midwives. I do not watch anything relating to giving birth, it gives me nightmares, I mean the dreams I get after watching it are grand usually me giving birth but nightmare part starts when I wake up&#8230;


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## Blythe

gingmg said:


> Please don't judge me. I'm not proud to be a smoker, its soooooooooooooooo bloody hard to quit. I keep trying and one of these days I will make it. I have the patch on again.

Alan Carr's book on stoping smoking is wonderful. I used to be a party girl and smoke and drank a lot....I conceived but that may have happened sooner had I been a good girl! 

Being a good girl now does not seem to help....I'm holding out for good old fashioned luck!!

Briss- thats brill you love your massager. Mine will be out again tonight. I also have a back one and sometimes have both on at once whilst watching tv :) I'm on my phone at work but will check those slippers out later! My feet are quite hard too and I have corners on my heels.....sexy!! 

At the weekend I contacted a lady who does readings using tarot cards which of course reflects the level of desperation I have reached. She said she is out of the country until late next week but will do a reading for me and says she is able to see things to do with children etc. she sounds very nice and normal. I feel a bit daft really but there it is!! I've never really been into this stuff but i have been in limbo for so long now that if she told me no more children then I can start rationalising that. I feel nuts even typing this out. 

I hate this bit before AF. Just want to get going on next cycle.


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## Briss

Just had the MRI (very long and uncomfortable procedure so was very grateful that hubby was in the room all the time) but they would not tell me anything. I have a CD with the pictures but afraid to look as I may misinterpret them. Will have to wait until my doctor's appointment in September.

I am really tempted to do readings etc but also very scared to hear something I do not want to know so will probably give it a miss. I almost went to the witches asking for baby spells, that tells you something about my level of desperation&#8230;

Blythe, what back massager do you have? sounds awfully nice to have both feet and back massaged at the same time. my DH massages my back from time to time but unfortunately he cant go anywhere near feet, some kind of phobia he cant even stand beach holidays because people wear flip flops 

I know that these last few days before AF is the most awful time, your temp does not look promising but it's certainly different from other cycles so who knows it might be a good sign. Do not give up just yet


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## Blythe

Briss im glad the MRI is now out of the way. im sorry they were not able to provide any immediate feedback to reassure you but im sure thats just standard policy there. i hope you dont have too many days before your doc can explain it all.

the massager i have is:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/HoMedics-SP10H-Shiatsu-Cushion-Heat/dp/B0014IBVB4/ref=tag_stp_s2_edpp_url

its good and sometimes uncomfortable. I'm sure there are much better ones but for the money its good value.

i have already brought a spell. they said i would get pregnant within 3 months - i emailed after that time and she said i really needed to believe i would be pregnant and it would happen. no doubt could enter my mind as it would sabotage the spell. of course its all bollocks as I'm sure a good dose of positive thinking and BDing at the right time works within 3 months for loads of couples hence the good feedback she had. they are no longer allowed to sell spells on eBay but I'm sure they are! I used to watch Sex and the City and it reminded of a positive thinking seminar that Charlotte attended after her divorce. She asked the woman who was hosting the seminar why she wasn't meeting anyone and the woman said she was out there but not 'really out there'. 

i feel the same about positive thinking as as much as i do try [i know all of the benefits] i cannot keep those darker thoughts out so maybe im trying but not really trying [well thats what i thought the spell lady was saying - ie its my fault!]. Maybe i just have to try better at overriding those thoughts and just say IT WILL HAPPEN - IT WILL HAPPEN until they disappear.

ive just reread your comment re DH and feet and it has made me laugh out loud! poor sod :)


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## Briss

that bask massager looks wonderful! 

I used to watch Sex and the City as well and remember how far I was from being able to relate to Charlotte's fertility issues &#8230; it's all coming back now including Chinese medicine.

Blythe, you are definitely 'really out there'! spells are just not working. I just think you could try and get more positive thinking in the last week before AF. I know you think that you already know your body and can tell that it's all over but in reality it's not always the case. these things are really hard to predict and you could get lucky just before AF. The pregnant lady at the MRI clinic told me she did not get BFP for two weeks she had no idea what was happening. it's all strange but these things happen. 

I could write novels about various incidents relating to my DH and feet, but it stops being funny when we start discussing holidays and I realise that sea side and beach is just way outside my DH's comfort zone&#8230; 

TMi this AF I got 2 clots, rather large ones, looks like herbs were helping with this cos I did not have clots while I was taking the herbs.


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## Jazzbird

Hi Gals

Intrigued to read about your tarot cards & spells Blythe! I used to be really into that sort of stuff. I've seen Psychic Sally (attended one of her shows) and also seen another medium who actually started pointing in our direction and telling us about what we think is hubby's recently passed away grandmother and it was scarily accurate. He's a total skeptic but he was terrified, so he never raised his hand. There was no way she could have been talking about anyone else in the room it was so specific. I've also had a reading at the College of Psychic Studies in London where I was told I too am "gifted". I never see the future but I can sense people when I meet them. It's weird. I've also been on an overnight ghost hunt. He he, what a nutter. I think I do believe in psychics - I just don't think there are many genuine ones out there. And I think I also believe in ghosts, but I kind of feel they are stuck energy in a building. Like a video tape being replayed. And I also think the Oujia board is dangerous, not that I've ever played it.

Briss, I'm glad you've had your MRI - the wait must be horrible, but good that you are not looking at the pictures and guessing. It's not worth it.

I had my scan and AMH results. AMH was 23 pmol/L and my scan was ok. Said my lining was thick & I had 15 follicles. She said she was originally concerned that my AMH was bordering on too high - and this might be a result of polycystic ovarian syndrome, but she couldn't see any evidence of this on the scan. She said I just had to keep on trying. 

She wasn't very impressed at my acupuncture & herbs though! She warned me there was no scientific evidence to support its help in fertility. I already know this, seeing as I have studied it, but I still felt like a buffoon. I didn't want to enter into debate about the validity of the positive studies or western scientific protocol, so I just sat and smiled.

I've had bad AF cramps today and trapped wind - it was so bad I had to hole up in the John Lewis toilets for a good half an hour (I love being a woman). I'm only on day 20, hopefully I don't have another 8 days of cramps coming my way.


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## Blythe

Briss - i too noticed clots in last bleed. A much shorter period but super heavy and clotty. I need to be away from herbs for a while as need to be in right frame of mind.

I have just done this (free and instant as you dont have to register or anything)

https://www.free-tarot-reading.net/readings/reading.php

and one of the cards said this

The Sun is shining on you - it's your time for success, joy and happiness. You will feel confident and full of vitality. It's a time to celebrate with friends and loved ones, perhaps enjoy a well-earned holiday, a time of pleasure and good news around children or the conception or birth of a longed-for baby. If you are not feeling this way take heart, you will enter this period soon.

I know its randon stuff but just reading that has lifted my mood.

Jazzbird. Those results are fab :)


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## Breaking Dawn

I had to comment on the DH and feet topic. 

My DH likes my feet and offers to massage them and even after a bath rub lotion on them. I know what a doll!! But I'm so ticklish it's like I have to prep myself. 

:rofl:


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## Briss

Jazzbird, excellent news on AMH and AFC! at least you know now that you have a luxury of time in your TTC efforts. 

Blythe, I think I overdid it with the foot massager last night :) really good reading! I'd also feel super positive, I got really excited when I read my chinese horoscope last year promising me a baby .... 

Breaking dawn, I actually think that a lot of men like feet (judging by particular sort of magazines...) i am just unlucky with my DH but that's where the foot massager comes in handy


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## Juniperjules

Hehe... This thread really brightens my day just when I need it! Having a gigle about the feet topic.. My mum also has a foot phobia, she hates looking at people's feet, & used to cringe & tell us to stop if we were wiggling our toes anywhere near her! : ) and throw blankets or cushions.. Towels.. Whatever over our feet if we didn't stop! I don't have a phobia but I don't particularly like feet.. Thankfully I work in mental health & there isn't much touching of feet required! 

Just had a mini meltdown at OH this morning..bcos I tried to initiate BD & he said he was too sleepy & we had to get up & work on our demo CD before I leave for work at 1pm... I lost it!! Started ranting about how I give up on him & sex! And that I'm gonna make him pay for ALL of our IVF since probably not having sex enough is our problem!! I also made some comments about how over the years I NEVER refused him sex when he was up for it- yet he does it to me now.. He then started saying I was gonna give him a migraine & that he's still sick (man-cold!), & asked me when were 'the baby days'. To which I replied "today & the next 4 bloody days!!".. And he said ok I promise we'll have sex tonite- just not right now. I then decided to calm down & make us both coffee. Today I'm not gonna hold a grudge. We had a great day yesterday, up at the crack of dawn & off to get his SA down at the andrology lab at our IVF hospital. Despite being barely awake he performed on demand & even had a sense of humour about it. in general things just felt good, & positive. I was also asked yesterday at work if I want to be trained next week to do Transmagnetic Stimulation (TMS) which is a non invasive treatment for depression using magnets. It's only done in a few hospitals in the world & my hospital is one of them. So yesterday was a good day. I've decided not to spoil the good vibes by going mental today.. Well, any more mental than I was for 5 mins ; ) 

Briss! Great that ur MRI is done. When is ur appt in Sept? 

Re Psychics etc..I went to a tarot card reader years ago. Thought she was pretty crap. An hour of drivel really. But my friend has recently been to a psychic that she said was freakily accurate. So a friend from work (also ttc but hubby has genetic issue that will require IVF), are thinking about going to see this woman... Should do that soon maybe. 

Jazzbird, fab results for you! My FS said same thing to me about AMH, yes it's very high, but follicle numbers don't indicate PCOS. So hopefully just means good things about quality &/or quantity (ie far from menopause?). I was on another thread with a few girls who all had high AMH and in late 30's & early 40's- one thing we all had in common was mothers who went into menopause mid 50's. so maybe it's an indicator of that?? Good news for you anyway! 

Am def thinking of starting at least acupuncture again ASAP, to complement IVF. Apparently my FS approves & encourages acupuncture but not herbs while doing IVF.


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## Breaking Dawn

Ive only ever had a tarot card reading once ...it was more like a fun thing to do on a night out at an event. 

I'm 9dpo today....and 11dp trigger. My boobs are tender and nipples still sore.....I think it's the trigger side effect. I'm not sure if the trigger is out of my system yet, I've read it can take anywhere from 10-12dp trigger.

Anyhow....I'm terrified to test....terrified to see a bfn. We had decided this would be our last IUI Before ivf. I have bloodwork on sat morning, my usual thing is to POAS before bloods so I'm prepared for the outcome. I'm almost wishing I could pause time so I don't have to find out that its a bfn.

Some one smack me pls :(


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## gingmg

Thanks for all your words of support. Gonna keep trying to quit. Gonna do clomid and the trigger this cycle. Gonna also try to stay calm, positive, and do more yoga. Might look into a hypnotist again too. I need all the help I can get. Maybe a relaxation CD. Might stay offline, but prob won't do a good job at that. I'm determined to get pregnant sooner than later.


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## Jazzbird

Morning ladies. What a lovely thread this is 

Juniper - sorry about your rant with OH it happens when ttc. I feel like I do all this stuff - herbs, acu, supplements, vitamins, yoga, medical apptmts ... And my oh does sweet nothing. Even when he had his SA - I booked it in, picked up the tube and transported the results back to the hospital. It annoys me that he still doesn't understand ovulation, opk & cm. oh the luxury of being a man! Funny you should mention the correlation between high AMH and mums menopause. Mine had hers age 59 so I guess I fit with the same theory. They did ask me that yesterday. 

Breaking - we're rooting for you! It's so hard to resist the urge to test but I get the logic - trying to prepare yourself. Let us know. I'm 8dpo and I'm already getting af cramps. 

Well if you find a good psychic Blythe let us know. I'd love to go to a really good one but again I'm scared they will tell me something bad. 

Briss when is your sept apptmt?


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## Briss

Juniper, sorry about your argument with DH but at least he is trying. I like it that he calls it 'the baby days', so funny how our husbands are forced to get to know the process. what is exactly Transmagnetic Stimulation (TMS) and how does it work and help with depression I may also need it. We were going to go to Brussels this weekend but once my DH realised he is not allowed to drink beer he refused to go :( he says it's a torture to be in Brussels and not drink local beer. I understand where he is coming from but beer 2-3 days before my O is just too much to bear. basically ended up arguing again.

Breaking dawn, it's very stressful time but I am so hoping you will get good news on Saturday 

Gingmg, good plan! I am forcing myself to do yoga but it's just not working out. I cant understand why, maybe it's cos it's slow and I am never sure I am doing it right and cant see any results but motivating myself for yoga is near impossible. 

My app is on 9 Sep so quite a long wait. I love this thread ladies, everyone is so supportive. cannot imagine a day without it, just keeps my spirits up


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## Juniperjules

Jazzbird.. I think the beauty of this thread is that it makes us realise that our men are not the only ones who behave in certain ways. Sometimes it's easy to get caught in that 'tv/movie' perfect man trap... U know, where u start looking at things ur fella does or doesn't do & feeling like he should/could behave differently.. Then u get paranoid wondering wot it means about him or ur relationship. And I think that's usually due to the fact that we have watched too many tv shows & Hollywood movies where the guy may not be perfect as such, but in the end he gets it right, he recognises the error of his ways, he comes to the rescue, the penny drops & it's a happy ending ... Blah blah blah.. It's just not real life. But we subconsciously expect that our men should be living up to these expectations. Sometimes it really is just plainly obvious that men are from Mars & women are from Venus!! : ) 

Very interesting that ur mum went thru menopause later, my mum worked out that her mum did too. My sister will would like to get her AMH done at some stage, she's 31, would be interesting to see what hers is compared to mine. 

Briss, i think the jury is still out as to why exactly TMS helps people with depression, But it does. The magnets do something to the nerve cells/neurotransmitters in the brain. People have it usually every day for 20 days, it goes for 40mins & often people fall asleep in the chair- it's not painful, but sometimes a headache might occur afterwards. ill find out more next week when I do my training & ill report back anything else for you. But here's a link to an article in the meantime..

https://theadvocate.com/features/people/4390378-123/depression-treatment

I agree about this thread. It's like catching up with friends everyday : )


----------



## Blythe

Breaking Dawn - i so hope this will be it for you. Fingers crossed for sat. The waiting must be agony...its bad enough in a natural cycle. hang on in there


----------



## Breaking Dawn

I agree this is a great thread

Thanks so much for all the positive words of advice. I am tempted to test early. So we will see how long I can hold out. 

Boobs still tender and look fuller - even DH comment on how they looked bigger last nite. And nipples are still sore to the touch. 

I'm 10dpo and 12dp trigger...

Anyone else have experience with ovidrel trigger.. symptoms etc?


----------



## Blythe

Breaking Dawn said:


> I agree this is a great thread
> 
> Thanks so much for all the positive words of advice. I am tempted to test early. So we will see how long I can hold out.
> 
> Boobs still tender and look fuller - even DH comment on how they looked bigger last nite. And nipples are still sore to the touch.
> 
> I'm 10dpo and 12dp trigger...
> 
> Anyone else have experience with ovidrel trigger.. symptoms etc?

all good signs with the boobs! im afraid i have no experience of ovidrel though. i have everything crossed for you Breaking Dawn :flower:


----------



## Jazzbird

Juniper - you are so right when you talk about our expectations and Hollywood movies. Romcoms irritate me - they almost always end when they finally get together! Why can't we have more honest films about long term relationships?! Have you seen 500 days of summer? That is a brilliant offbeat romcom and totally different to most. 

I've been googling about high AMH and insulin resistance. I've always had a bad relationship with sugar. I've always eaten way too much sweet stuff. I get the shakes if I don't eat very regularly ... wondering whether I need to get tested ...

Sorry Breaking - I don't know anyone with ovridel experience. Let us know when you test. We've all got our fingers crossed. Would be so lovely to see someone on this thread get their BFP.


----------



## Blythe

I love 500 days of summer. He does get a girl in the end but not the girl. Annie Hall takes some beating. I love woody Allen!

Might be worth getting tested or at least making done enquiries with doc

Going to see friend and new baby. It's good to be away from office :) 

Want AF to show up so I can get going mentally with next cycle!!


----------



## Briss

CD 7 for me and got HIGH no surprises here, looks like EPO is not working and I will O early again. I was kind of hoping that as soon as I stop the herbs my cycle will get longer on its own but it does not seem to be happening. 

Yesterday I went for 1.5 hour lymphatic massage using that voucher and really enjoyed it. although I think the Japanese place is much better but still this massage worked well as a relaxation thing, I think I may even have fallen asleep at one point. I never had lymphatic massage before and for some reason I thought it was going to be strong, on the contrary they barely touch you cos apparently lymphatic passages are close to the surface of the skin. I booked another one in a couple of weeks. I think this is as close as I can get to meditation because while they manipulate your body I find it easier to stop thinking and just concentrate on what they do and how it makes me feel &#8211; basically I think that's what they call "being in the present", she recommended drinking a lot of water and no caffeine for the rest of the day which I did. 

My DH hates it when I watch chick flicks cos he thinks (apart from being boring) they are presenting men in an unnatural way, men are not like that (at least straight men aren't). I do not agree actually because I think some men are capable of being romantic at least sometimes.


----------



## Blythe

i have my PH miracle green powder which tastes like farty old cabbages and my alkalising drops. 

i can actually say for the first time i can actually notice the whites of my eyes being visibly whiter! Could it be I'm actually doing something that makes a difference! i have still had some biscuits and cakes here and there and other acid stuff but overall i have had way more alkalising foods and i do feel better :) i have had one cup of black tea this week and no coffee at all....only a big pot of strong yerba mate in the mornings to get me going.

my period is now starting - my plan of action this month is to eat and drink VERY WELL and i will take clomid for the final time. i don't think i will bother with any supplements.


Breaking Dawn - any news?


----------



## Breaking Dawn

Ladies thanks for supporting words and rooting for me!

I have not tested yet....partly bc i have no tests at home and I'm at work now and I'm not poas at work.

Bloods are tomorrow morning...DH and i are going for dinner tonight. I will test tonight. ...if I chicken out...then definitely I will test FMU before I head for blood work. 

My boobs are still full and tender...nipples still sore and they look a tad darker. But I could be wrong there I'm brown so they are darker to begin with...lol.

I went to acu last night. Gave my Dr all the details of everything that's gone on since our appt last thurs. She said all these symptoms sound good but she said it's always difficult to say when on meds especially since it's my first time on these specific meds. 

She needled the following: on top of head, right wrist, inner ankles, below knees. And then did a bit of moxi over uterus before removing the needles.


----------



## Briss

Blythe, I like your plan. I've generally been good this cycle, fresh wheatgrass juice is almost daily! although cappuccinos/chocolate are also daily&#8230; fruit/salads plenty. most important change is I started forcing myself to drink water. I do not usually drink any water at all ever, cant stand the stuff. it's cold and does not give me anything just makes me run to the loo more often but I am determined. Have been forcing myself to drink at least 2 glasses of water a day

Breaking dawn, I did not know you could have moxi over your tummy area particularly after O. they usually warn you about having too much heat over tummy area but obviously your doc knows better. I so hope this is it for you!! 

I had a dream last night as if my friend who is also LTTTC got pregnant. It will be very interesting to know if it comes true. anyway I told her about this dream and she is very excited.


----------



## Breaking Dawn

Briss...this is another contradiction between western and eastern meds. Especially is you have a cold uterus in tcm terms.

Altho she is not apply it very close to my skin I could barely feel it and it was for exactly 2 min.


----------



## Briss

started reading this article on alkaline diet, looks very interesting and finally somebody made sense how it all works - https://www.energiseforlife.com/wordpress/2013/08/29/alkaline-diet-proof/

"The purpose of the alkaline diet is not to try and increase the alkalinity of your blood, cells or any other part of your body. This is the chief &#8216;told you so&#8217; point of the detractors of the alkaline diet. They say &#8216;there&#8217;s no point doing the alkaline diet because the body has mechanisms to ensure you NEVER deviate from pH 7.365&#8242;. I agree &#8211; that&#8217;s exactly the point.

The purpose of the alkaline diet is to celebrate that fact and provide the body with all the tools it needs to effortlessly maintain that pH 7.365. The Standard American (Western) Diet and modern life in general bombards our body with acids all day long. The damage that these acidic substances (such as sugar) cause is only beaten by the damage caused by the body doing whatever it takes to buffer these acids and maintain the pH 7.365.

The alkaline diet is designed to limit these acidic substances and fuel your body with an abundance of nutrient-dense, life-giving foods that make your thrive. It&#8217;s NOT designed to try and increase the alkalinity of your body, rather to support the body&#8217;s own delicate balance."


----------



## Breaking Dawn

I finally tested today on an FRER and BFN.

Looks like the trigger is out ...and no bfp either .


Boobs must just be reacting to all the meds this cycle.


----------



## Briss

breaking dawn, i am very sorry about bfn but maybe it's just too early, it can still change, I really hope it will


----------



## Jazzbird

Ditto - really sorry Breaking. I always test early - I just tested negative too at 10 dpo. 

It might just be too early - your symptoms sound so promising.


----------



## Blythe

So sorry for the bfn. This may still be your month so just hold on for that blood test. :flower:


----------



## Blythe

Jazzbird said:


> Ditto - really sorry Breaking. I always test early - I just tested negative too at 10 dpo.
> 
> It might just be too early - your symptoms sound so promising.

10 dpo is still early. Fingers crossed for you jazzbird :flower:


----------



## Briss

Blythe, very sorry about AF :( are you going to do anything to increase your progesterone this cycle? I usually take lots of vitamin C after O (not before O cos it can dry up CM)

DH and I keep arguing, he is putting some of its weight back on (mainly because he cant stop himself from eating rubbish) and now wants to resume his excessive exercising regime, 3 days before O!!! and too tired to BD :( I am losing my nerve here


----------



## Blythe

thank you Briss :flower:

does vit c help with prog? if so i will certainly try it as my temps maybe indicate a problem with that last cycle but who knows.

I'm not surprised you pulled your DH up on his intentions....if he starts the exercising now he will be even more tired and not able to do his duties. my DH can hardly manage twice around ovulation and i have to really nag him...I'm tired of it...i should be with someone who wants to have sex with me whenever its available but 'TTC sex' has put an end to that. 

I hope your DH sees sense and does not start anything extreme again - he must know how much this means to you and your concerns. i just dont get boys sometimes.


----------



## Briss

Thanks Blythe, but my DH had just done 4 hours in a gym and is going for more :( I am concerned wearing tight synthetic running pants will increase temperature in his private area and cook his spermies :( he says he is walking on cross trainer rather slowly but I am still concerned


----------



## Briss

Vitamin C is one of the ways to increase your progesterone levels in TWW https://lifeissues.net/writers/feh/feh_15vitamin_c.html

there are other ways but it just seems the easiest and less controversial https://sites.google.com/site/misca...sterone-research/how-to-increase-progesterone

having said that I do not think you have luteal phase defect as your LH is usually perfect but cos last cycle your temp were a bit low it might be that you need a bit of antioxidant boost


----------



## Blythe

Briss said:


> Vitamin C is one of the ways to increase your progesterone levels in TWW https://lifeissues.net/writers/feh/feh_15vitamin_c.html
> 
> there are other ways but it just seems the easiest and less controversial https://sites.google.com/site/misca...sterone-research/how-to-increase-progesterone
> 
> having said that I do not think you have luteal phase defect as your LH is usually perfect but cos last cycle your temp were a bit low it might be that you need a bit of antioxidant boost

thats very interesting - I'm definitely going to stock up on some decent Vit C! thanks for posting that link


----------



## Jazzbird

Briss - men can be so cr*p sometimes. Does you OH at least wear loose fitting shorts to the gym? I hate the craze of high impact exercise in the West - it just burns out your kidney energy. 

Blythe - I heard Agnus Vitex (?? is that the right name) is good for increasing progesterone - although in my case, I have found kidney yang herbs good for keeping my temps high.

I forgot something my fertility specialist said to me. She said the aim fire method around ovulation is not so reliable and to do more BD every week (twice a week normally & then more around ovulation). I am wondering whether she could be right ... as I have had a triphasic temp shift this month. I averaged around 36.3 from CD1 to CD13, then 36.54 from CD14 to CD17 and then 36.8 from CD18 to today (CD23).

I got EWCM on CD 11 & OPK peak on CD13. 

I'm now wondering whether I may have ovulated later than CD14. 

Grrr, its so hard to tell with my temps! I definitely have base kidney yin deficiency, which is apparent in my (usually) long follicular phase. Then because yin is generally weak, I get a slow temp rise after ovulation (failure for yin to transform to yang) and then my temps usually barely get over 36.6 (kidney yang deficiency).

I have been on very good powdered herbs which I think are responsible for the higher temps at the end. I am 99.9% sure I am not pregnant. I've had bad cramps for a week now and I really feel it is AF. I have no other symptoms.

So next month for me, I'm going to bang OH silly  If he'll let me!


----------



## Blythe

Briss said:


> Thanks Blythe, but my DH had just done 4 hours in a gym and is going for more :( I am concerned wearing tight synthetic running pants will increase temperature in his private area and cook his spermies :( he says he is walking on cross trainer rather slowly but I am still concerned

my dh djs every now and then...he did last night and came home in the early hours with an old friend of his who is in the country for a few days. they are now seated in a local bar drunk! i have asked that he stay out for as long as possible as i have no interest in seeing him or his friend! 

if it was closer to ovulation i would be crazy angry but i simply do not care today. 

im not sure at what point sperm start dying in situ.....i often have the same concerns as im always catching my dh out when he has his laptop on top of his area!


----------



## Blythe

Jazzbird said:


> Briss - men can be so cr*p sometimes. Does you OH at least wear loose fitting shorts to the gym? I hate the craze of high impact exercise in the West - it just burns out your kidney energy.
> 
> Blythe - I heard Agnus Vitex (?? is that the right name) is good for increasing progesterone - although in my case, I have found kidney yang herbs good for keeping my temps high.
> 
> I forgot something my fertility specialist said to me. She said the aim fire method around ovulation is not so reliable and to do more BD every week (twice a week normally & then more around ovulation). I am wondering whether she could be right ... as I have had a triphasic temp shift this month. I averaged around 36.3 from CD1 to CD13, then 36.54 from CD14 to CD17 and then 36.8 from CD18 to today (CD23).
> 
> I got EWCM on CD 11 & OPK peak on CD13.
> 
> I'm now wondering whether I may have ovulated later than CD14.
> 
> Grrr, its so hard to tell with my temps! I definitely have base kidney yin deficiency, which is apparent in my (usually) long follicular phase. Then because yin is generally weak, I get a slow temp rise after ovulation (failure for yin to transform to yang) and then my temps usually barely get over 36.6 (kidney yang deficiency).
> 
> I have been on very good powdered herbs which I think are responsible for the higher temps at the end. I am 99.9% sure I am not pregnant. I've had bad cramps for a week now and I really feel it is AF. I have no other symptoms.
> 
> So next month for me, I'm going to bang OH silly  If he'll let me!



trying to get my dh to have sex around ovulation is hard enough let alone make it a regular thing. we used to have regular sex but kind of lost it along the way :( 

i have very very low sex drive nowadays which makes me sad as i used to always be throbbing with desire....for anyone really. i wonder what i could do to have a higher sex drive.

i did try AC but it delayed my ovulation and i didn't like that but you are right about it increasing prog...or at least i have read that too. i stopped taking it after that month but i often look at that as well as soya isoflavines as something i may revisit.

Depending on what kind of bleed i have i will make a decision re taking my final round of clomid. i want at least two full days of red blood which is just about what i got last month. theres no point in taking it if theres no lining for the egg to implant into.

you mentioned you had a triphasic temp shift this month...if this is not your usual pattern i would not rule a BFP out just yet. a week of cramps could also be a good sign although im sure you know your body well enough by now.


----------



## Breaking Dawn

Just wanted to let you know that bloodwork confirmed BFN this morning.

:(


----------



## Briss

Jazzbird, triphasic temp shift sounds very promising although I also noticed that sometimes my temp gets higher in the second week on TWW. 

my DH wears the tightest possible synthetic running pants :( he is confident they are fine cos they are designed to provide ventilation but i doubt very much cos it's not about sweating but more to do with friction that increases scrotal temperature :( men are so unreasonable at times. I wish I could get my DH to do more BD every week, he is just not into it, last time I managed to force him to BD was around my previous O that is 3 weeks ago. he also never masturbates so there is no movements down there for weeks. I tried and tried but nothing I do makes him want sex

I am stuffing myself with chocolate eclairs :( but I did go out and drank two shots of fresh wheatgrass juice! (although I do not know how long I can make myself drink this stuff it's ghastly and the taste stays with you for a while). got myself some beet-root from the market for juicing, will be mixing it up with apples


----------



## Briss

Breaking Dawn said:


> Just wanted to let you know that bloodwork confirmed BFN this morning.
> 
> :(

:hugs: so sorry to hear that, I'd still hope until AF shows up in full force, it's still possible


----------



## Jazzbird

Briss - I'm sorry that your hubs is not into BD. Has he always been like this? Or is it since TTC? Why can't he wear loose shorts?! Men eh, they just can't be bothered to put in any effort. I remember my OH getting so drunk the second month of TTC right when I had EWCM. I was so annoyed.

Don't worry about the eclairs - i just scoffed half a Sainsbury's Coffee Cake, then got the shakes an hour later ... and licked off the remaining icing.

Blythe - perhaps you could take AC after ovulation? 

I think TTC takes all the fun out of BD. Its no longer spontaneous and fun but scheduled and stressful. Men often feel undesired because they think you only want them for their swimmers. I think the only way to break it is to work on your relationship and try to make TTC appear secondary (even if its not). Can you schedule in a few date nights, first off, some around AF so that there is no possibility of BD. Just some time to reconnect and remember why you are together to start with? Maybe do something new together ... go ice skating? Something that would be fun, but with a few drinks after perhaps?

I think men just want to feel desired ... because that's how they feel love.

You know I find dancing increases my libido. Lots of pelvic rotations etc.  

Or mix it up a bit and watch a sexy film together. Doesn't have to be full on porn but just a film with an erotic storyline - I haven't watched Secretary but heard its good. As long as he doesn't feel that the result is for a sperm deposit.

It is hard to keep things fresh and new, especially against something like TTC - I've only been trying 8 months so can't imagine what it's like for you guys.

I must stop doing pregnancy tests. At least they're the cheapo ones, but still its ridiculous. I keep holding it up to the light and scouring for a faint line, but no - it's just stark white.

I start commuting to London on Monday. I've had a long break between contracts - I was hoping that I'd conceive ... but no luck. No idea how much a 2 hour commute each way is going to affect my ability to conceive. Oh well. Being relaxed and rested at home has made no difference!

Breaking - just saw your post. So sorry. Virtual hugs from all of us. Why don't you join in with our group sugar indulgence this afternoon?


----------



## Blythe

Breaking Dawn said:


> Just wanted to let you know that bloodwork confirmed BFN this morning.
> 
> :(

:hugs: it's just beyond heartbreaking. I mean what the f**k do we have to do to get pregnant. 

I believe we will get our bfp but I don't know how. I see women getting natural BFPs after women have had unsuccessful rounds of iui/IVFs. It seems so random.


----------



## Jazzbird

I think you've hit the nail on the head Blythe. It is absolutely so random. 

Those who you think are going to struggle have no problems and vice versa. People give up all hope after sometimes decades of trying - and it suddenly it happens naturally.


----------



## Briss

I love secretary! excellent movie :) I got myself 50 shades of grey but never got round to reading it, supposed to do the trick but tbh for me 5-10 min of watching porn is all it takes (pictures but not videos, for some reason videos have the opposite effect on me, I need to be able to engage my imagination and pictures work the treat). in TWW I have no sex drive but I make myself O regularly cos it supposed to bring blood to reproductive organs (hopefully) I got myself red shoes diaries which usually work but as I said porn is a sure thing and the quickest way to get where I need to .... so lucky my DH does not read this forum :) 

My DH never had much sex drive but he can be pretty good if he puts "his mind" to it... obviously TTC just ruined it for him completely. I do not think he enjoys sex nowadays, it's more like his duty. he does say things like "let's get it over and done with" :( it's good that I am really horny around O so it does not bother me what he says as long as we BD, I want him regardless but at other times I do wonder whether he still loves me


----------



## Blythe

I remember finding my dads porn collection when I was in my early teens. It's all I knew about sex really and it put me right off. I didn't lose my virginity until I was in my early 20s. 

I rediscovered porn in my early 30s. Maybe I need to look into this again!


----------



## Jazzbird

Briss - how would your hubby feel about watching a little erotica with you? Perhaps it can light the fire in his loins? Or maybe talk dirty 

Blythe - defo think you should revisit it. Maybe erotica rather than porn. It's more geared towards women. Oh I remember a good sexy film that's actually quite gripping. Unfaithful. It's not porn. 

Do you think baby and bump is going to start blocking us all from these forums?!


----------



## Jazzbird

Also - massage with oils. Would oh like this briss? Again you should just massage each other with no bd at first. See if he responds better to that. If he's not that into sex he'll probably clam up when the possibility of it is there. If you take it away and just massage each other - perhaps it will come naturally as a by product.


----------



## Briss

Jazzbird, thanks good idea! not sure how long I will manage to hold on massaging with no bd though :) it's very hard to make hubby watch porn, he does not find it exciting, for some reason he concentrates on women imperfections too much and then there is the issue of feet :) 

Blythe, quite similarly I also discovered porn collection at home when I was in my early teens (had to rely solely on my imagination before then) but it had an opposite effect on me - I could not put it down ever since. there was nothing particularly exiting there just pictures of women but maybe it's the fact that I knew it was forbidden that made it so attractive. there are so many varieties out there but most do not work for me, I guess you just need to explore and see what works

I should probably stop otherwise we will get blocked from here :) although it's all in pursuit of a baby


----------



## Jazzbird

Briss - I forgot about the feet issue. Interesting that you OH focuses on womens imperfections. Does it come from the same place as his feet phobia?

I'm like you too Briss - I found pornographic photos when I was young and found it very erotic. I think it's very common in women but not talked about much. 

I recently watched a bit of an erotic film on Netflix but there were no subtitles so I only watched a few mins. OH comes home a few weeks later and turns on Netflix. Immediately it says "because you watched xxxx you might also like .. "(And lists all these raunchy films)! He keeps teasing me mercilessly about it! 

I might have to delete some posts ... my username is not so anonymous to people who know me. Or perhaps I can change my username.


----------



## Breaking Dawn

Confirmed BFN by look test today.

Ihad a really busy day being social and around others so kept it all in.

Just got home 20 min ago and hav been balling.

This is not fair.....I don't get it....I can't stop crying.


----------



## Blythe

Jazzbird said:


> Briss - I forgot about the feet issue. Interesting that you OH focuses on womens imperfections. Does it come from the same place as his feet phobia?
> 
> I'm like you too Briss - I found pornographic photos when I was young and found it very erotic. I think it's very common in women but not talked about much.
> 
> I recently watched a bit of an erotic film on Netflix but there were no subtitles so I only watched a few mins. OH comes home a few weeks later and turns on Netflix. Immediately it says "because you watched xxxx you might also like .. "(And lists all these raunchy films)! He keeps teasing me mercilessly about it!
> 
> I might have to delete some posts ... my username is not so anonymous to people who know me. Or perhaps I can change my username.


my dad's stuff was proper 70s stuff....the days before women had discovered hair removal products so that sort of makes it immensely better than todays material. i remember thinking that men would just be interested in doing stuff over women's faces....this is what probably put me off.

im still bleeding and theres lots and its red.....so sad that this should make me happy! i have decided to finish off the clomid this cycle so will take first pill later today.

i will stock up on some good quality vit c for post ovulation. my dh has run out of well man but is taking zinc, maca, l-arginine. i don't think that is going to cut it so i will go down to the posh organic shop near to where i live and check their supplements section. they have loads of fertility stuff and all of the zita west supplements...massively overpriced and not too dissimilar to well man in what they contain. they have some US ones too but not the ovaboost and fertilaid which i have eyed up a few times.


----------



## Blythe

Breaking Dawn said:


> Confirmed BFN by look test today.
> 
> Ihad a really busy day being social and around others so kept it all in.
> 
> Just got home 20 min ago and hav been balling.
> 
> This is not fair.....I don't get it....I can't stop crying.

im so sorry. cry it out and when you feel ready put your head up and start focusing on your next plan.

i don't know why it did not happen for you this cycle. Having watched these videos on youtube about conception and the sperms journey to reach the egg i find it incredible that anyone gets pregnant. Another month this could have worked perfectly with much less help. THERE are loads of perfectly great eggs inside of you and at some point [hopefully in 2/3 weeks] all things will be in balance and it will happen. 

You are right though it is not fair at all and some women have sex once standing up 6 days before ovulation and it works on the first month of NOT trying. For others who try everything to make conception as easy as possible, well it just wont happen and its just the hardest thing in the world to reconcile that and keep moving forward. The fact that we do month after month makes us pretty amazing.


----------



## Jazzbird

I'm so sorry Breaking. I really don't know what to say except I'm thinking of you. Do you have any friends you can be with who understand?


----------



## Blythe

i have just come back from the shops with some 1500mg timed release vit c for post ovulation.

Having said i would avoid supps i have now decided to take some of this:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Vitabiotics-Feroglobin-200ml-Plus-Liquid/dp/B005QSAVPK

i will have a wheatgrass shot everyday and my nasty green powder along with a fresh veg juice. i will still have treats here and there but determined to eat very well overall. i am going to avoid peas...apparently they are not great when TTC.....i love peas and have been eating loads so will eliminate them altogether.

If this last round of clomid does not work i will have a month of ttc naturally then decide what is next.


----------



## Briss

Breaking dawn, this is just so unfair! I have no words, your stats were very good and if you cant get pregnant with those stats then who can? TTC is one thing that we cant control, it's just so random, there seem to be no logic to it you just have to get over the disappointment and carry on. you will get lucky and I hope it will be very soon. 

I am definitely approaching O cos am getting hornier with every hour, just watched a cleaning liquid ad with a cartoon male character and found him very arousing :) sex with hubby on the other hand was just a nightmare, after several very heated arguments we finally BD but it was as far from love making as you can imagine...I want a proper man! 

Blythe, I actually did not like 70s stuff cos you could not see anything so women had to use their fingers to show stuff which was rather off putting for me. also nowadays with photoshop it all looks quite appealing although not quite a real thing. when I see a women who is just perfect down there I cant get aroused cos I cant stop feeling annoyed, why cant I look like that! I am glad your AF is looking good, that's very important. Hopefully clomid will work this time. My AF was a disappointment cos it was 7 days and then after nothing for about 24 hours I got spotting on CD 8 :( hate it when it happens. I got my DH fertilaid products but then decided it's cheaper to go with welman + higher doses of certain vits. I did not notice any difference tbh but fertilaid is just easier cos it seems to have all you need. it might be cheaper buying it from amazon though.


----------



## Briss

Blythe, I have not had peas and tuna for ages now, read somewhere they are not good for TTC and it stuck with me. I agree that you may need 1-2 months to recover after clomid before going for anything more serious 

my DH has gone to gym again :( I am so disappointed with my DH that I lost all hope for natural conception, his sperm just does not look/smell right. I am even not sure if it will be good quality for IVF, probably will have to come to terms with ICSI 

I usually tale liquid iron with my grapefruit juice - https://www.amazon.co.uk/Nelsons-Spatone-100-Natural-Supplement/dp/B0019M7OCA/ref=pd_cp_d_3 will look into Vitabiotics Feroglobin as well, I do not want to take any vit except C after O, feel like I need a break from supps. I may take folate though (not folic acid) but the one you recommended last time. 

I am shopping for CBFM sticks, it's always depressing cos I buy a few months stock and when I run out it's just a reminded of how long it's taking and how many children I could have had by now...


----------



## Briss

Was looking into folate, so confusing cos some say &#8220;folic acid&#8221; while they mean "folate". basically if &#8220;folic acid&#8221; is specified as 5-MTHF or Metafolin, that means folate and not folic acid. I am getting this one (I think it's the same as yours Blythe) - https://www.amazon.co.uk/Solgar-Fol...ie=UTF8&qid=1378039509&sr=8-1&keywords=folate


----------



## Blythe

Briss said:


> Was looking into folate, so confusing cos some say folic acid while they mean "folate". basically if folic acid is specified as 5-MTHF or Metafolin, that means folate and not folic acid. I am getting this one (I think it's the same as yours Blythe) - https://www.amazon.co.uk/Solgar-Fol...ie=UTF8&qid=1378039509&sr=8-1&keywords=folate

thats exactly the one i have...comes highly recommended!


----------



## Jazzbird

I have stopped all supplements apart from Chinese Herbs. Perhaps ill give them ago again in time.

Next month I'm going to try sperm meets egg plan. Gonna be a lot of bd! Just hope I don't ovulate too late or we'll be knackered!


----------



## Blythe

Briss said:


> Blythe, I have not had peas and tuna for ages now, read somewhere they are not good for TTC and it stuck with me. I agree that you may need 1-2 months to recover after clomid before going for anything more serious
> 
> my DH has gone to gym again :( I am so disappointed with my DH that I lost all hope for natural conception, his sperm just does not look/smell right. I am even not sure if it will be good quality for IVF, probably will have to come to terms with ICSI
> 
> I usually tale liquid iron with my grapefruit juice - https://www.amazon.co.uk/Nelsons-Spatone-100-Natural-Supplement/dp/B0019M7OCA/ref=pd_cp_d_3 will look into Vitabiotics Feroglobin as well, I do not want to take any vit except C after O, feel like I need a break from supps. I may take folate though (not folic acid) but the one you recommended last time.
> 
> I am shopping for CBFM sticks, it's always depressing cos I buy a few months stock and when I run out it's just a reminded of how long it's taking and how many children I could have had by now...

Stocking up is so depressing. I always buy these things thinking this could be my last batch....:(

I hope you don't have to nag DH into BDing this month. It's draining enough without the extra stress of arguing over sex. I very much symphathise with you as I have the same issues. Sometimes IVF seems preferable as AF least we don't have to argue over BDing (that's such a silly thing to say but you know what I mean). 

I loved that you were aroused over a cartoon :) brilliant!


----------



## Briss

I did yoga today, one of those kundalini dvds I bought a while ago. surprisingly i managed to relax and felt really good after that. still find it really hard to motivate myself to do yoga regularly


----------



## gingmg

Briss- Kundalini yoga is so good for you. Good for you. 

I'm 72 hours no smoking. This is so very hard, but it's time to take it off the table. Hopefully, the next few days will get easier. It may not help to get me any closer to my BFP, but at least I won't be blaming myself anymore.


----------



## gingmg

Breaking Dawn- I am so sorry. I know this isn't easy.


----------



## Briss

gingmg, well done keep going! it will definitely help you with BFP, I am sure your egg will improve and it will be easier to conceive. 

am so mad at my DH, cant take it any more it's just so hopeless, it;s like he is doing all he can to prevent me from getting pregnant. i think he ruined his sperm count completely with his constant beer drinking and excessive running :( he agreed to do another SA after my O and if it will be bad I am going to go with donor sperm and we get divorce :( I love him but I really want a baby


----------



## Breaking Dawn

Ladies...thanks for all the porn talk...made me smile even tho I'm not in the greatest mood right now.

Briss. ...I am so sorry to hear about issues with DH. I don't want to be rude, nosy or insensitive at all....but does he want to have a baby as mush as you want? I just don't think his actions show it. And actions speak louder then words. 

You give up and do so much to prep for ttc....he should do the same ...it's not fair to you. As a women you naturally have to do more....all he has to do is keep his sperm healthy.

:hugs: 

AFM ...I had some good down/sad time this weekend....much needed. I also spoke to my support group in my life. And they were so supportive of the fricken bfns and iVF...they actually encouraged me to go for it. Saying that I'm young (ish-ha!) and healthy right now...if its something I'm going to end up needing in the future...meaning more IUIs that don't work. Then better do it sooner ...and have younger eggs.

AF also started today...1 day earlier...fun fun.

Thanks ging for your note.....appreciate your kind words.


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## Blythe

gingmg said:


> Briss- Kundalini yoga is so good for you. Good for you.
> 
> I'm 72 hours no smoking. This is so very hard, but it's time to take it off the table. Hopefully, the next few days will get easier. It may not help to get me any closer to my BFP, but at least I won't be blaming myself anymore.

well done...keep focused on your goals. i think the first day or two is the worst....the actual cravings go soon enough.


----------



## Blythe

Briss said:


> gingmg, well done keep going! it will definitely help you with BFP, I am sure your egg will improve and it will be easier to conceive.
> 
> am so mad at my DH, cant take it any more it's just so hopeless, it;s like he is doing all he can to prevent me from getting pregnant. i think he ruined his sperm count completely with his constant beer drinking and excessive running :( he agreed to do another SA after my O and if it will be bad I am going to go with donor sperm and we get divorce :( I love him but I really want a baby

i am sorry that you argued with your DH. He must know by now how much the exercising and drinking upsets you and why it concerns you so much. its baffling isn't it...why does it have to be so much hard work...

i know you are coming up to your peak so please just try and get a BD or two in and try and keep stress levels down then think about how you want to deal with DH.

i am going to have a look at sperm production and how drinking affects it as my DH was drunk for most of the weekend [his friend was in town] although assures me that is it for the next month.


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## Juniperjules

Breaking dawn... Am also sorry : ( .....your new attitude about IVF is how I'm looking at it too. I would LOVE to get a bfp on our own. But if its gonna take another 6, 12, 18 months... Or It may not happen at all? Bugger that! I'm frustrated enough without stressing about my eggs gettin older every month. And if we get to freeze some good embryos then you have the chance to go back for number 2 a year or so later with embryos from your younger eggs. That sounds pretty great to me. Glad you had some people to share with and you def sound like your keeping yourself positively looking forward.

Briss... Bloody men!!!!!!! They really are just so selfish sometimes. I guess your DH's attitude is like many men, yes I'm happy to have a child, but I don't want to have to change my lifestyle or have it upset my daily life. Even my own lovely dad I've been told by mum wouldn't have a SA done back in the 70's when they were ttc. My poor mum went thru god knows how many internals, D&Cs, blood tests etc... But when my dad was asked to do a SA, he flatly refused!!!! And my dad is a nice guy.... But he wasn't up for it. Mum said she was angry but what could she do. She couldn't force him. She said she actually said to him last week (when my OH was doing another SA), 'remember you wouldn't do the same test? At least he's making the effort'.... And dad just sheepishly looked at her... No comment. 

I have to say.. One of the reliefs that IVF will give me is that I won't have to argue with OH about BDing. And I hate that im saying it, but its the truth. We get along great, but my paranoia about our sex life becomes a big issue every month around Ov. And whether I like it or not- I cannot make him want sex just bcos I'm about to Ov. I will be happy when we are doing IVF and sex will be something that has much less emotive pressure behind it. I dread the negative atmosphere that gets created when I start getting angry, panicky and frustrated about it.


----------



## gingmg

Breaking dawn and juniper jules- what a great way to look at IVF. I have my consult in a couple of weeks. I know that is the direction I'm heading. We haven't been trying all that long, but we chose IUIs over home insemination, so now that I have had 7 unsuccessful IUIs, I think I am getting closer to IVF. I actually feel safer knowing there is a backup plan if these medicated cycles fail. I'm willing to do whatever I need to do.


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## Briss

Breaking Dawn, I know that coming to terms with IVF is not easy, it took me over a year to accept the idea. I am still not happy about it but I know that we probably do not have other options. my DH does not really want to have a baby as much as I do, I am sure he will get there but it might just be too late for me when he does. 

Blythe, I think occasional drink is not a big deal. also your DH's sperm was good so a slight reduction in quality/quantity probably wont affect your chances as much. My Dh does not have good sperm so he really needs to do everything possible to improve it not to make it worse. 

Juniper, I have no idea why men cant just face it like we do. they are supposed to be the stronger sex, what's wrong with them. I am trying to understand it but I fail tbh, it's just puzzling to me that they are being so sensitive about the whole thing. I do feel like I wear trousers in our household which is not sexy. I know what you meant about IVF taking the pressure off BD but my fear is that we get to egg collection and he wont produce a good sample and they cancel our cycle. I do not think I will be able to deal with that. Told him we need donor sperm as a back up for this occasion but he flatly refused 

afm, got HIGH this morning, slightly surprised as expected a PEAK. either EPO is working in delaying my O which will be great but most likely I should have put the first day as spotting rather than CD1 so I am probably still at CD9 rather than CD10.


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## gingmg

Briss- If you go ahead with IVF, does your husband have to have a great sperm count? I still don't know too much about it, but won't doing IVF take some of the sperm's challenges away? Is ICSI where they inject the sperm into the egg an option?


----------



## Briss

gingmg, I am no IVF expert myself and ICSI should take care of the issue but (i) I would prefer not to do ICSI if possible and (ii) what if his sperm is almost non-existent on the day, not even enough for ICSI? it might be an extreme example but I just do not know


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## Briss

CD11 and I am still on my 5th HIGH, that's a bit unusual, I really hope it's EPO working in delaying my O rather than CBFM just missing the whole thing. I'd be so upset cos DH wanted to BD this morning (can you believe this, without me nagging him!) but I did not want to BD too early before O cos now it looks like I may O on Thursday. I now started getting some EWCM. DH said he can only manage one BD so I wonder if I should trust my CBFM and wait until tomorrow morning hoping to get a PEAK so we could BD tomorrow PM or whether we should BD tonight just to be on the safe side in case CBFM is missing my LH surge. decisions decisions


----------



## Blythe

Briss said:


> CD11 and I am still on my 5th HIGH, that's a bit unusual, I really hope it's EPO working in delaying my O rather than CBFM just missing the whole thing. I'd be so upset cos DH wanted to BD this morning (can you believe this, without me nagging him!) but I did not want to BD too early before O cos now it looks like I may O on Thursday. I now started getting some EWCM. DH said he can only manage one BD so I wonder if I should trust my CBFM and wait until tomorrow morning hoping to get a PEAK so we could BD tomorrow PM or whether we should BD tonight just to be on the safe side in case CBFM is missing my LH surge. decisions decisions

Could you bd in the am. Have you any opks you can check with tonight? I hate it when things are not clear. Obviously wouldn't be so much of an issue if we were with stud muffins!!


----------



## Briss

Blythe, just think wouldn't it be nice if we could just BD every day around O instead of having to be strategic about it. I went out and got some boots OPK just to be sure and it was negative but getting close. I will check again when I get home tonight. We could BD tomorrow morning but if I O on Thursday it might just be a bit too early, I do not have much hope that his spermies will last that long. Still I guess better too early than too late

btw, it really annoys me how he negotiates our BD, one BD today and then he is "free" for the rest of the cycle. There must be a law somewhere saying that it's his legal duty to BD. 

it's funny but I think I might be releasing some pre O pheromones that are affecting my male colleagues, were discussing some documents with a partner this morning and he mistakenly said "virgins" instead of "versions" several times, he was so embarrassed poor thing, I just laughed cos that's just not the kind of words you hear often around here


----------



## Blythe

Briss said:


> Blythe, just think wouldn't it be nice if we could just BD every day around O instead of having to be strategic about it. I went out and got some boots OPK just to be sure and it was negative but getting close. I will check again when I get home tonight. We could BD tomorrow morning but if I O on Thursday it might just be a bit too early, I do not have much hope that his spermies will last that long. Still I guess better too early than too late
> 
> btw, it really annoys me how he negotiates our BD, one BD today and then he is "free" for the rest of the cycle. There must be a law somewhere saying that it's his legal duty to BD.
> 
> it's funny but I think I might be releasing some pre O pheromones that are affecting my male colleagues, were discussing some documents with a partner this morning and he mistakenly said "virgins" instead of "versions" several times, he was so embarrassed poor thing, I just laughed cos that's just not the kind of words you hear often around here

That's funny. Cute that he was embarrassed! 

My (ex) friend's advice when she gave me her cb ovulation sticks was to wait for smily then bd every day for 5 days. As if! I'm going to try and wait for a clear positive then bd hopefully twice. What usually happens I'd I see a nearly positive then start panicking. 

Did you get your positive this evening ?


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## Breaking Dawn

Briss said:



> it's funny but I think I might be releasing some pre O pheromones that are affecting my male colleagues, were discussing some documents with a partner this morning and he mistakenly said "virgins" instead of "versions" several times, he was so embarrassed poor thing, I just laughed cos that's just not the kind of words you hear often around here

HAAAAHHHHHHAHHAHAH

That was hilarious. Thanks for the laugh!


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## Breaking Dawn

Juniper when are you starting IVF?

I go in for cd3 appt tomorrow and will start meds! 

Very nervous!


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## Briss

I got nearly positive OPK in the evening and am obviously panicking. I will probably get a peak tomorrow morning. My ovaries are killing me, both of them which is strange cos I usually have very distinct feeling in only one of them around O. I think I will change my plan and BD tomorrow morning.

Looks like I am gradually putting the weight back on :( quite depressing it was so hard to lose it and so easy to put on. i mean obviously chocolate eclairs do not help but generally I do not eat that much, was hoping it will take longer before I need to return to dieting. My motivation is just not there. timing is also not great to diet before ivf


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## Jazzbird

Hi gals

Just started spotting - AF will be here tmrw. This is the first cycle I feel really hopeless, like it will never happen. I feel so sad. I talked to my DH about it and for the first time he admitted he is worried. He says he doesn't want to put anymore pressure on me so he never tells me how he feels he may have to rewrite the future he had dreamed. That makes me want to cry. I'm mad at myself for being so undecided about children and possibly having missed my window of opportunity. 

I almost wish they had found something wrong. Something we could fix or understand.

Xxx


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## Briss

Jazzbird, I am very sorry about spotting, I hate it when it happens. it's not all lost yet for this cycle. It's good that you had an honest talk with your DH. still you have not been TTC that long, I think after 35 it takes about a year for most couples to conceive, i read somewhere that over 90% will conceive naturally within 2 years. your stats look very good so i think it's just a matter of time, fingers crossed you will get your BFP very soon

Breaking Dawn, are you starting IVf already? what protocol are you doing?


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## smurfy

Hi All

I have been laughing at the comments of strategic planning DTD, I am exactly the same and because hubbie has low sperm count it is even more important, plus by cycles can vary by 4-5 days so can be a nightmare once I get close to ovulation week I have to balance up 1) is he in the country or travelling with work, 2) any late nights planned being in london office 3) how is he feeling :) 4) when the ovulation highs kick in 5) the doctor said for us to DTD every other day, managed to get 3 sessions in the week of ovaulation but had to grab him for the last one. 

The stress of all of this is not good

Keep going everyone it will be worth it in the end


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## Blythe

Jazzbird said:


> Hi gals
> 
> Just started spotting - AF will be here tmrw. This is the first cycle I feel really hopeless, like it will never happen. I feel so sad. I talked to my DH about it and for the first time he admitted he is worried. He says he doesn't want to put anymore pressure on me so he never tells me how he feels he may have to rewrite the future he had dreamed. That makes me want to cry. I'm mad at myself for being so undecided about children and possibly having missed my window of opportunity.
> 
> I almost wish they had found something wrong. Something we could fix or understand.
> 
> Xxx

Hi Jazzbird

i know what you mean about wanting to find something wrong that they can fix and then get on with it. for me it has been like being in a tunnel with no glimpse of the light at the end. i feel like it just keep moving towards a deeper darker tunnel. i wouldn't mind this if i knew at some point that there would be some light but i just have no clue. i worry that i wont be able to turn around and get back out again.

the days before you start AF are the pits. once AF starts i find myself feeling positive again. Briss is right....Statistically speaking, and with your stats too, it is highly unlikely that you wont get pregnant naturally. 

i bet we all wish we had done all this years ago but who is to say we would not have had the same struggles. 

keep going girl! it will happen :hugs:


----------



## Blythe

Briss - have you noticed more ewcm this cycle through using the EPO? im wondering if i should give it a go.


----------



## Briss

It's driving me mad! Either I am having a really weird cycle or my CBFM gave up on me. I got another HIGH this morning! 6th! that does not usually happen. my OPK was almost positive but not quite, then again maybe it's as good as it gets. I did another OPK, digital this time and surprise surprise &#8211; got a smilie face (although I used the same urine sample for all 3). Am I missing my O? it's really strange cos I stopped using digital OPK as they always gave me + on the day of the first PEAK so I thought no point doing it twice. my ovaries are super sensitive although the left one seems be a bit more painful than the right one. sex drive seems to be still there although hard to say with all this OPK drama going on. had a tiny bit of EWCM yesterday morning and nothing since despite GFJ and EPO (I should have probably BD when hubby wanted to as it was the only time I had any EWCm). Either I missed O completely or I am just getting there. Dh could not bring himself to BD this morning but hopefully he will manage it tonight (otherwise I am definitely divorcing him and this time I mean it!) 

also just to make you laugh, no idea how it could have happened but on the way to work I realised that I am not wearing my bra! I cannot remember the last time I was not wearing a bra, it's just virtually impossible for me. How could I forget to put it on?? It's quite noticeable&#8230; and I am in client meetings all day. when I realised it we were on our way to work with hubby and he got so excited like a child really so fingers crossed he will be in good condition for BD tonight (also hope it's not too late)


----------



## gingmg

Can someone please explain AFC?


----------



## Briss

AFC is antral follicle count. https://www.conceptfertility.co.uk/antral-follicle-count/ when you have a scan they are able to count your follicles on each ovaries and this is supposed to be a good indication of your egg reserve (together with AMH and FSH) and how you will respond to stimulation during IVF. e.g. my AFC is 9 (7+2) which is low for my age, they would expect the see something like 14-15


----------



## Blythe

i just read that Gwen Stefani [43] is pregnant. i remember reading ages ago that they had tried for another child some years ago but it hadn't worked out. i read it and started crying. i was also in bed last night looking at pics on instagram...i was looking at old album covers and saw a comment from an old and dear friend of mine who i lost contact with some time ago...I've always had a soft spot for him. anyhow, so i clicked on his pics then his girlfriends and she is blooming pregnant. I was a bit gutted...sad and weird!

Actually i don't usually mind when i know the people but right now i am surrounded by it....or perhaps I'm not but i just shut out everything but this stuff nowadays. 

im going to try and keep the usual noise levels down [incessant chatter that says it wont happen] and keep positive this cycle. In fact, I have decided that this is the month it IS going to happen. Im going to try a positive thinking experiment and hopefully i will see the amazing results in 3 short weeks!!!!!


----------



## Briss

It's lucky no one talks about babies/pregnancies in the office, except for secretaries who have boards with pictures of babies and for some reason copy the entire firm on their baby announcements. I just ignore it, unless I see a bump in front of me I am OK with emails. I think I probably have not ovulated yet cos as soon as you mentioned your old flame I got really hot going in my mind through the list of people I may have soft spot for. My ex that I was supposed to marry 13 years ago has 3 children (maybe even 4 now), but back then I decided to cheat on him with my DH &#8230;. it might be that I am being punished for this now&#8230;. 

I am thinking of buying this book - https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product...act_title_1?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=A3P5ROKL5A1OLE supposed to help deal with infertility and provide some practical advice and relaxation techniques. might also have something on positive thinking. I do not buy the idea of positive thinking I think the important part is not to think anything but just be "in the present" (whatever it means), things seem to happen when you do not think about them. No idea how to achieve this blissful state of mind though. I do hope your positive thinking experiment will be a success!! will be watching with interest. 

I know I'll be in pieces when AF arrives even if we missed O this cycle, it does not matter I will still hope for a miracle somewhere deep down, there is no getting away from it. But I am really focusing on my next hopefully IVF cycle, just need to get through my next week's appointment 

I just got my Kenkoh (the Japanese Reflexology Massage Flip Flops) delivered! Cant wait to try them on. hopefully with time they will soften my feet.


----------



## Blythe

Briss said:


> It's driving me mad! Either I am having a really weird cycle or my CBFM gave up on me. I got another HIGH this morning! 6th! that does not usually happen. my OPK was almost positive but not quite, then again maybe it's as good as it gets. I did another OPK, digital this time and surprise surprise  got a smilie face (although I used the same urine sample for all 3). Am I missing my O? it's really strange cos I stopped using digital OPK as they always gave me + on the day of the first PEAK so I thought no point doing it twice. my ovaries are super sensitive although the left one seems be a bit more painful than the right one. sex drive seems to be still there although hard to say with all this OPK drama going on. had a tiny bit of EWCM yesterday morning and nothing since despite GFJ and EPO (I should have probably BD when hubby wanted to as it was the only time I had any EWCm). Either I missed O completely or I am just getting there. Dh could not bring himself to BD this morning but hopefully he will manage it tonight (otherwise I am definitely divorcing him and this time I mean it!)
> 
> also just to make you laugh, no idea how it could have happened but on the way to work I realised that I am not wearing my bra! I cannot remember the last time I was not wearing a bra, it's just virtually impossible for me. How could I forget to put it on?? It's quite noticeable and I am in client meetings all day. when I realised it we were on our way to work with hubby and he got so excited like a child really so fingers crossed he will be in good condition for BD tonight (also hope it's not too late)


Briss - when i used to use the CBFM i sometimes got a smiley before i got my peak. i very much suspect you will pick up the surge with your CBFM in the morning - i reckon you will O tomorrow or perhaps even very late tonight.

PS - thats great your DH was excited about your braless condition this morning :)


----------



## Briss

Blythe, I hope you are right and I have not missed my O yet but determined to BD tonight


----------



## Juniperjules

Breaking Dawn said:


> Juniper when are you starting IVF?
> 
> I go in for cd3 appt tomorrow and will start meds!
> 
> Very nervous!

Breaking, well if everything goes to plan, i would be starting injections on cd2 of next cycle. Which is 17th sept. however we have a couple of things we have to get sorted beforehand if we're to start on the 17th. OH's criminal record check has to come back- it's taking longer than mine, they say bcos someone with a similar name might have a record so they have to make sure it's not him! Great... Secondly, OH is going away for 10 days for work & will b back about 5 days b4 I would usually b due to Ov. I have to call me nurse today & get details, but I need to make sure that there's no risk of them wanting/ needing to do the egg collection earlier & him being away still. God things are never straightforward are they. Trust this month to be the one that he's going away!!


----------



## Breaking Dawn

Ladies...I have an update for you.

This evening I got home around 7pm, plan was to eat and hang out with DH and then take gonal F (start of IVF). This morning I had my CD3 appt picked up all the meds and ivf info.

So, we're having dinner and I'm feeling this uneasy feeling in my gut. And then it turns into me feeling blah, and down and before I know it I'm crying!!

DH and I spent 2 hrs talking about the past 9 months of fertility treatments AND now move to ivf. So, I got to the bottom of my feelings:
- I have been feeling like I can do ivf, but it's more like I must do ivf .
- i have put the pressure in myself that i MUST get pregnant NOW
- I realized that of course I want to be pregnant but not at the expense of my mental and physical health
- my whole life has been focused like a microscope on fertility, I live in 2 week increments
- I was feeling so uneasy bc I was moving to IVF because I felt that's what I MUST DO, jump right into it, not take a break, keep the pressure on myself, that if I just focus and keep going cycle after cycle after IUI and now ivf I will be pregnant. 
- BUT I'm not, and that's ok bc I've learned what did nt work for me, so when I'm physically and mentally ready for treatments I know then if IVF Is right for me bc I'm making the CHOICE to the that step and not on a runway train. 


After the convo and these realizations, I took a deep breath and SMILED for the first time since my BFN on Saturday. Because I'm happy where I am right now bc it's MY DECISION and not a decision that's fallen on my lap.

I hope you all understand what I mean, I feel sooo relieved and I know you were excited for my IVF journey and I thank you for your support. And I hope that will now be excited for my current journey of being healthy, exercising and enjoying sex with my husband.

IVF is not off the table, maybe it will be oct, nov...or January . 

It's just not right for me right now. :)


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## Blythe

Breaking dawn- I know exactly what you mean. I was on that train earlier this year heading towards IVF and whilst I haven't got off the train I have slowed it down a bit. A dash of clomid, a bit temping and obsessing on the side but the blind panic is no longer there. 

It's great that you were able to have a frank conversation and get clear in your mind what's going on and where your at. You are right that you need to be ready for IVF. Your plan sounds great. I miss exercising and being normal. 

:flower:


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## gingmg

Breaking Dawn- IVF isn't going anywhere, you always have it as an option when you are ready. Sometimes taking a break and getting back to your old self is a good option. I feel so much better and more optimistic after our two month break.


----------



## Juniperjules

Breaking, it sounds like you've had a lightbulb moment : ) sometimes it's so easy to get caught up in the momentum of something that u suddenly realise your barely breathing & feel completely lost. 

You sound calm & content with ur decision. And yep, IVF will def still be there as an option in 6 or12 mths. No one should feel rushed into this stuff unless its a conscious decision to do the rushing. It's too big & it's too important. Good for you for deciding u want to slow down. You'll only ever get support here for being ur own advocate in life!


----------



## Briss

Juniper, do you need OH's criminal record check for IVF? this is the first time I hear about it.

Breaking down, tbh I was also surprised that you were going into IVF straight after IUI with no break. it's really hard. It took me over a year to come to terms with the idea of IVF and now I just know that there is no other way for us to get pregnant so I really must try it before it's too late. There is a really good discussion on here https://babyandbump.momtastic.com/p...1763-anyone-else-have-mixed-feelings-ivf.html I totally support your decision. it's really good to get some time off treatments to reconnect with your body and your DH and prepare mentally for a very tough IVF journey. but then who knows may be you wont even need it.

afm, am very confused. my CBFM produced a very disappointing 7th HIGH this morning. I have one last stick to try tomorrow and if it continues with HIGHs I am giving up on it for this cycle. No temp rise either this morning which was a bit surprising cos my left ovary was on fire yesterday and it was at times quite painful to move. Today I still feel it but much less. still no sigh of EWCM but was something like watery yesterday. It does not happen very often that I am in the dark as to what's going on with my cycle, very uneasy feeling. I managed to get hubby to BD thinking I was ovulating but now I am afraid we BD too early. I asked him to repeat the exercise today but he was not happy about it.


----------



## Blythe

Briss - i bet you get your temp rise tomorrow. its strange that the CBFM has not picked it up this month but i had a couple of months of just highs with no peaks but did pick my surge up in the evening with a smiley face.

Either that or you may have another stronger surge coming up! that EPO certainly seems to have done the trick though.


----------



## Briss

Blythe, I agree EPO seems very powerful, it might be just a coincidence but it was more than one cycle where I was taking it and O-ed on CD 13-14 compared to my usual CD 11. Although when I was taking it together with Chinese herbs EPO never worked that way. Seems like herbs were making my cycle stay at 25 days, which is regular but short. I wonder if I should take EPO during the IVF cycle. I got your liquid iron thing and as soon as I O I will stop my vitamins (except for C) and start adding it to my daily juice. 

another thing that I did differently this cycle is fresh wheatgrass juice almost daily (double shot!) but I doubt very much it could have affected my ovulation.

re EPO, quite a few ladies reported EPO completely dried up their CM around O and I have to say I am having troubles with my EWCM this cycle, I cant find any. yesterday I even noticed some creamy CM which really scared me cos no sperm can get through that.


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## Breaking Dawn

Hi ladies...i typed out this huge response and it got deleted from my phone. :(

Anyhow I just wanted to say thanks for your comments. 

Blythe..I'm happy where I am now and I'm no longer on a train moving ahead with me!

Juniper, Ging, you're right ivf is not going anywhere. And it's not something I must do now.

Briss...to be honest, I felt so many women on bnb go straight from back to back iuis to ivf. and that was added to the pressure I was putting on myself. Seeing so many ladies do it and I didn't even stop to think if it was right to me but like I said before I felt like I was on a fertility train that was moving without my control.

So I'm really glad I listened to me and how I was feeling. I've been putting a lot of pressure on myself. And now I can relax.


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## Briss

CBFM is disappointing me this cycle, another high&#8230; I give up. No impressive temp rise either (but then I woke much earlier than usual, maybe I need to adjust my temp). I made my hubby BD this morning just in case but he complained no end and said he did not feel there was much semen coming out. probably not surprisingly if you BD against your will.


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## Breaking Dawn

Briss...maybe your body is gearing up to O still?

That does not mean it is too early to BD...i think it's good you BD today.

I am seeing my TCM dr tonight...looking forward to it bc i will let know that I'm stopping all meds and just going to relax. 

I will keep doing acu to relax but I enjoy these appts so for me it's not stressful.


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## Blythe

Briss - hopefully you will see another rise in the morning. i hate the uncertainty of it all...very tiring! its a good job you had some opks you were able to use in addition to the CBFM. This is certainly a different cycle for you....hopefully this change will result in something magical for you.

Good that you got another BD in this morning...my DH says the same re the lack of anything coming out so im going to try to save it up until i get a smiley face then do it on that day, day off and then the morning of the day after.

i love my little alkaline drops and just pop some in a large bottle of water and drink throughout the day. i must confess to having eaten a tonne of chocolate during the past few days but i feel the other changes i have made help cancel out the bad bits. I'm also enjoying my pot of yerba mate tea in the mornings.

i brought these which i have been taking in the morning...i used to take the tablets but they had soy in so i stopped. i brought these ones because they are in H&B and its buy one get one half price
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Arkopharma-150ml-Organic-Royal-Jelly/dp/B0066URA06/ref=pd_cp_d_1

i would like to get some fresh and have been eying up this one on ebay which i may order in when i am on leave as it is next day delivery:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Pure-Roy...Vitamins_Supplements&var=&hash=item3f287549f5


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## Jazzbird

Hello ladies

Been away a few days but so nice to read all your posts and catch up!

Breaking - so pleased you have made a positive decision. I think ttc really makes you feel you have no control but you have by deciding to not go straight into ivf taken some control back. 

Juniper - excited to hear about your ivf journey. Please post all about it. 

Briss - fingers crossed for ovulation ... Its hard when you don't have the luxury of bding every other day. It must be stressful getting that one shot right timing wise. 

Blythe - hoping all these supplements will make the difference for you. It all costs so much money! 

Gingmg - hope all is ok with you! 

AFM - af is in full swing. I'm at end of cd2. Just started a new contract in london and been very stressed out with my 4 hour daily commute. Starting to look forwards to this ovulation. Going to try sperm meets egg plan if hubby is not working away or too tired. Just hoping it won't be one of my super long cycles or ill be exhausted by cd20!


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## Juniperjules

Hey girls, 

Briss, yep here in Victoria (Aust) both of u must have clear criminal record checks & clear working with children checks!! On one hand it feels kind of insulting... No one makes a 17 yr old who gets knocked up accidentally have a criminal record check!!! But.. I guess it's to ensure there's not dodgy stuff going on, u know baby selling that kind of thing. 

Sorry to hear ur cycle is stuffing u around this month. Why do our bodies turn against us when we need them to just be normal?? It's like my spotting for 2 days this month! Wtf??? It does ur head in, I feel for you. 

Breaking, you sound happy & relaxed. Am so glad. 

AFM, well my update is that we're gonna postpone the IVF till October. OH is going interstate with his band for 10 days, & we would be cutting things VERY fine with our dates. If my AF comes on cd 27 instead of cd 28 (which it often does), and if I respond quickly to the drugs (which I could potentially given my high AMH), then we could need to do the egg pick up a day or even 2 before he'd be home. There's the option of freezing his sperm b4 he goes... But that could b difficult- the andrology place is booked solid & I'd have to call them Monday to see if they could squeeze us in this week cos he leaves next Sunday. However, when I broached the idea with OH he wasn't keen. He just said 'nah just do it next month with fresh sperm' & then made some comments about it being like taking stale bread out of the freezer & defrosting it..& something else about not wanting a demented baby made from stale sperm!!! Lord help me!! I tried to explain that it's done all the time, it's safe to do... Blah blah blah... But he wasn't having it. And i didnt get annoyed. but i have been thinking what if he changes his mind about ivf next month??? which is probably stupid & paranoid.. I suppose I do get it, why he isn't comfy with the frozen sperm idea. The more I think about it i would prefer that he was here giving his donation the same day I have the EC done.. It seems more... Right??? Does that make sense?? If he's not even here it kind of starts to make it all seem a little sterile or something?? On the upside it means mum & I can go away somewhere sunny for a few days which was in doubt if I was injecting myself & having u/s done. Also it'll mean I will have taken the melatonin for 5 weeks rather than 2-3 weeks, & ill have been eating more protein for like 6 weeks- so maybe it's actually a positive!

So it is what it is. A bit like Breaking, it slows things down a bit which is probably not a bad thing. We can start in oct without having to rush around & worry about police checks arriving & getting appt's to freeze sperm


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## Jazzbird

Juniper - I have to say - although it's a pain to wait another month, I think I agree with your hubby. If it were me I would want the best possible chance of it working. Freezing and defrosting are just 2 more things that could go wrong. I also think it would be better for you emotionally to have him with you.


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## Blythe

Agree with Jazzbird plus, as you say Juniperjules, it gives you bit more time to make your body super ready :)

Last month i took baby aspirin post ovulation and none of my usual spotting. i have been looking at some ivf threads and other girls have managed to eliminate spotting through use of baby aspirin. it could all be a fluke but i will be doing it again this month.

Briss - whats happening today...temp rise yet?


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## Briss

Breaking Dawn, it's great that our acu appointments are so relaxing and enjoyable. I am so hoping that if you just take it easy and re-connect with your body things will happen naturally for you. I never ovulated later than CD14 so it would be very unusual for me. It's possible that there is some problem with my ovulation this cycle because my left ovary was very painful for several days and that's the ovary where I have the cyst.

Juniper, I totally agree that freezing sperm is not the best way forward. I did a lot of research and talked to sperm banks when I wanted to freeze hubby's sperm but in the end it became clear that fresh stuff just tops. the unfreezing process is very complex and at least half sperm is lost. October is just around the corner.

Jazzbird, 4 hour daily commute is quite a challenge! I feel for you. Good luck with your sperm meets egg plan, if hubby was up for it I'd really love to try it.

Blythe, that's so great that baby aspirin is eliminating spotting! it's so encouraging that after we try so many things to discover that something actually works. 

afm, I think my temp is slowly moving up but very slowly :) I am just hanging there waiting to see what's going to happen without any expectation. I am slightly lost this cycle so decided to relax and just observe. I've done all I could BD wise, DH wont have any of this so no point obsessing. although he agreed to do his SA on Monday. I think it will be disappointing.

My left ovary has finally come down, I was beginning to worry 

People at Crussh are making fun at my daily wheatgrass pilgrimage :) but I am determined to be healthy although my yesterday wheatgrass shot was followed by belgium waffle with rich chocolate source ... oh well


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## Briss

I've just survived a baby shower! a colleague of mine who started TTC about 2 years after me and conceived after 6 months. really lovely bump... due in 3 weeks. they made me play various baby games like dressing up a baby etc I am proud to say I did not cry once (yet). I smiled and was genuinely happy for her. Interestingly I completely forgot about this baby shower and was going cycling when a friend who was also going there called me to offer me a lift. How could I forget? I did not even have a present, had to rush to mothercare for a voucher. I guess Freud would say that a thought of somebody else's baby shower was an unacceptable thought which I withheld from my conscious awareness hence forgetting :)


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## Juniperjules

Well done Briss!! The dreaded baby shower!! Glad ur still in one piece.. I bloody hate em. If I have a baby I'm tempted never to have one in protest. But then I think we'll Ive struggled thru everyone else's & bought presents for them- they should have to do the same!! Very mature eh ; ) 

Thanks girls, Jazzbird, Blythe, Briss for all ur comments re freezing sperm. Ur opinions really do help me feel like we're doing the right thing. I feel some anxiety around NOT doing IVF this next cycle.. Not sure why really? Maybe bcos Ive been waiting for this since last November..but I know this is ok too, & there's lots of benefits too. Briss ur input about ur investigations really makes me feel like we're better off not freezing.. I don't know anything about it really so that info helps loads. 

You girls are such stars ; )


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## Jazzbird

Briss - what a star  If it were me, I'd just find an excuse not to go. I find it hard enough getting email announcements with scan pictures & birth photos. I wouldn't have a baby shower, I just think its all so tedious. I'd just prefer a "last meal" with a few close friends.

Juniper - its only natural to feel anxiety. You've made a decision to go ahead with ivf and you just want to get on with it. But you can use the time to get plenty of rest, eat well, sleep well - prepare to conceive. Do lots of visualisations of the embryo attaching to your uterus with golden light  This is what my hypnosis CD suggests. Its bonkers what lengths we'll all go to.


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## Juniperjules

Yeh, I've avoided quite a few baby showers over the years I have to admit. I've always gone to really close friends ones- bcos I've actually wanted to I guess. And friends that I really love, even if I do still feel jealous and sad, well I still feel happiness for them. But for lots of others??? Well let's just say that over the last 5-10 years I've been a flight attendant & then a nurse.. So shift work has been my friend! Always had a 'legit' reason for not being able to go to a lot of these things ; ) 

And I agree with everything u said. I've actually just had a really really stressful week, so having a few more weeks to get everything sorted properly will b a good thing. 

Today we did a gig & we've made some friends at this particular pub. Tonite while chatting to one of the guys I found out that he is a sales manager for the company that makes or distributes huggies nappies, Kleenex toilet rolls & all sorts of 'feminine' products.. He said for $20 he can give us 100 nappies or 100 toilet rolls!!! : ) hilarious!!! I thought maybe its a sign! Hehe..


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## Briss

Ladies, finally something positive to share, my left cyst has disappeared!! I am so happy! apparently what they previously said about the cyst having a solid component was probably wrong because clearly the cyst dissolved somehow. the doc said it was probably a shadow. That's what I thought the ovarian pain post O + increased oestrogen levels indicated a simple functional cyst that comes and goes and I was sure it will go away on its own but when they said it would not because it had a solid component I obviously began worrying and then positive CA 125 almost finished me off. the cancer doc said they do not consider CA 125 on its own only in combination with other factors and also if it's cancer it does not go down only up and mine went from 45 to 34. I am so pleased.


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## Blythe

That great Briss :)


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## Briss

I wonder now whether I should go ahead with Create, it's a bit worrying that they cant diagnose cysts, they told me if I was younger they would have recommended surgery to remove it while if they saw it for what it was just on ordinary functional cyst it was just a question of waiting it out for 1-2 months until it goes away on its own.


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## Jazzbird

Just goes to show - what do they know?! I don't think it's create - I think most fertility clinics are clueless. And its not because clinics are negligent - we just don't know that much about fertility - it's all very hit and miss. 

It's great news Briss.


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## Briss

we repeated DH's SA today and after he resumed his beer drinking (since May) his count moved down from 11 to 7 million, motility from 58 to 50% but interestingly his morphology move up from 2 to 3%. we were told that they need at least 3 % morphology to do IVF rather than ICSI. I am so hoping we could do that. I am just trying to do it as close to natural as realistically possible. 

I think hubby is getting there morally so I am hoping we could start IVF right away.


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## Juniperjules

That's great news on all fronts Briss, glad ur cyst has sorted itself out- what a relief!!! And great news on the morphology too if u don't want icsi. 

Good things happen to good people! Sometimes they just don't happen bloody fast enough! ; )


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## gingmg

Briss great news all around!

I feel really bad. I kinda snapped at a good friend of mine tonight. She has A LOT of anxiety and her husband was away on business for a few days. I went and spent the weekend with her to help out with the kids. She was so stressed about everything constantly, especially about whether they needed or should need or might need to go to the bathroom. It's all we talked about for 2 days. I lost it today and told her I know its a stressful time for her, but I miss talking to her like we used to. It's not that I don't want to hear about whats going on with her kids, but its the same conversation over and over and its ALL we talk about and I've had it. Now I feel aweful that I hurt her feelings.


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## gingmg

12 days no smoking isn't helping the irritable factor either.


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## Briss

gingmg,12 days no smoking! Well done you! keep going. I am not surprised that you could not hold it any longer and snapped. She seriously needs to calm down as she is probably stressing out her children. Your friend was not very sensitive. Does she you know you are TTCing? 

Jazzbird, thinking back I think the reason I survived the baby shower was because my colleague knows about my TTC struggles and I suspect she warned the other ladies (90% of who had babies) not to have baby talk around me too much. I mean it's baby shower so you do have to talk babies but no one talked to me about their children or asked me questions on this subject, they all talked about dieting or career with me. 

DH confessed today that he was hoping for a very bad SA result and that I would suggest we split&#8230;. apparently that's what he was thinking about but did not have it in him to initiate it. in this marriage I have to do everything, don't I?? even being the bad guy who suggests a divorce&#8230;. I told him it's too late for that he is not getting away until I am pregnant then he can do whatever he wants.


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## gingmg

Oh my Briss I don't mean to laugh at a tough situation, but that was funny. " too late for that, he can go after I'm pregnant". You are a warrior.


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## Briss

gingmg, sometimes I laugh myself cos the situation is ridiculous. I did tell him 2 years ago that if he does not mean to help me conceive (i.e. quit beer) he should let me go so I could have a family with smb who really wants it (although I did wonder at the time whether that person exists). back then it would be hard to be on my own but I was only 35 and my FSH was normal. now things got to the point where I really need to get on with IVF asap. his sperm is not great but sufficient for that. I think he loves me but as most men he is just really infantile as far as children are concerned and that drives me mad. I am just so focused on IVF as my only chance to conceive that anything preventing it or making it harder annoys me greatly. I have no patience left for his indecisiveness but it does sound like I only need him for his sperm (which is not true, well not entirely&#8230;.)


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## Jazzbird

Wow Briss - I can't believe what a horrible thing he has said. Does he really mean it? Is he just tired of TTC or does he really not want to be with you. I know pregnancy is so important to you and perhaps I'm misunderstanding but you could find a sperm donor with fantastic stats if you are prepared to go it alone - rather than have more difficult ivf with someone who might not be there at the end. 

What a plonker (your hubby that is)


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## Jazzbird

Wow Briss - I can't believe what a horrible thing he has said. Does he really mean it? Is he just tired of TTC or does he really not want to be with you. I know pregnancy is so important to you and perhaps I'm misunderstanding but you could find a sperm donor with fantastic stats if you are prepared to go it alone - rather than have more difficult ivf with someone who might not be there at the end. 

What a plonker (your hubby that is)


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## Jazzbird

Darn connectivity on train double posting


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## Breaking Dawn

Briss... :hugs: men can be so ridiculous honestly. cannot believe he would hope for a bad result.


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## Briss

Jazzbird, breaking dawn totally agree, I was very disappointed in my DH. I supposed it's partly my fault, I've been threatening to leave him for quite a while and DH said he is tired of living in constant fear of me leaving and at this point he just wants certainly. 3.5 years of which at least 2.5 years were under constant stress and despair on my part and I have been blaming him for our situation. and rightly so cos all he needed to do is quit beer and take his vitamins, is it too much to ask? so here we are, but I do love him and I would want children from him if that's an option, that is.


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## Breaking Dawn

Briss

TTC us very stressful on a marriage. So I wouldn't blame yourself for the resentfulness you feel towards him.

Especially when you do sooo much for TTC.


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## Juniperjules

Briss said:


> Jazzbird, breaking dawn totally agree, I was very disappointed in my DH. I supposed it's partly my fault, I've been threatening to leave him for quite a while and DH said he is tired of living in constant fear of me leaving and at this point he just wants certainly. 3.5 years of which at least 2.5 years were under constant stress and despair on my part and I have been blaming him for our situation. and rightly so cos all he needed to do is quit beer and take his vitamins, is it too much to ask? so here we are, but I do love him and I would want children from him if that's an option, that is.

Briss, I know where you are coming from. my OH yelled at me last nite that if he does my head in so much then I should just leave him and find someone else.. And then maybe he'll be happy. Which after 18yrs is such a friggin cop out as far as im concerned.

Now I guess to be fair, I should preface those comments with explaining that this was after maybe 2 hours of me going nuts firstly. it wasn't about ttc... it was about something else.. an issue that we have been dealing with for 12 mths now. something that keeps coming up and really is threatening our relationship. At least i think it is. he doesn't- he just wants to ignore it- he has a very avoidant personality. so last nite when it came up again, i lost it. Then after lots of yelling i stopped cooking the dinner halfway through, and went to the bedroom to hide under the blankets..he came upstairs trying to cajole me, trying to hug & kiss me, trying to convince me to come downstairs and eat & watch a DVD with him & saying "I can't cook, what am I supposed to do with all this food stop being so mean". 

Then maybe 30 mins later we had to jump in the car and drop something at someone's house, and while in the car my rage and venom was building up again, I started saying crap to him to purposely be nasty..and then he lost it back. And said the comment about me leaving him. Then after a few minutes silence, he said "see what you do to me- you push me & get me so angry that I say stuff I don't mean". 

sometimes we do say things in anger that we regret afterwards. But I think sometimes u also say what u really mean when u are angry, emotional & u are pushed to it. So then i obsess about whether he really meant wot he said?? or did i just push him too far when he was trying his best to be nice and sweet and make things better?? 

Things quietened down after that. I was tired and over it. We watched a DVD but got too tired and went to bed halfway thru it. I went to bed, but then said a few more things to him (im like a dog with a bone) and he said a few angry things back to me. then he fell asleep... and i got up and went downstairs to sleep on my giant beanbag! very mature eh? i woke up at 6.30 am with him standing over me telling me to come back to bed with him. This morning he is trying to suck up to me, being sweet and trying to keep things light hearted. I'm still feeling uneasy. But am trying to keep a lid on it bcos I know that his tolerance levels if I keep it going will be very low today.

It's a really hard situation to explain to anyone else. To love someone, to have loved them for a long time. But to have a part of you that some days just says "I'm so tired, I'm worn down". Its the anxiety that gets to me. i cant handle dealing with the unknown. but then I'll have great days, days when I feel anything is possible. Days when my OH makes me laugh, we're having fun together & I feel like everything's gonna work out fine and know that I couldn't leave him.

And like you Briss, I also feel that if I'm to have a baby, it has to be with him. After all the years I've invested I'm not giving that up. Yeh there's always sperm donors, and for someone else that might be a great option. But not for me. I just know I'd never do it. If I have a baby I want it to be with the person I've given my life to for 18yrs now. Neither of us is perfect. It's a funny thing, but relationships don't get easier the longer you've been together, you'd think they would. But they get harder I think. I guess that's why the divorce rate is so high. Bcos even when you both love each other, once the "heady romantic" days are in the rear view mirror, your left with just the reality of both your personalities, histories, insecurities, dreams, and the fact that your both getting older and maybe life isn't quite what you thought it would be. And I guess that's when it's easy to hurt each other.

Hmmmm. Well now that I've completely depressed myself and all of you I better stop. Have probably got Pms right now as AF is due next Monday, and that often takes me to a bad place. I become very morose and weirdly sad. It's when OH & I have our worst arguments. Poor guy, I feel sorry for him sometimes. I really can be a sulky moody biatch when I have Pms. Probably a good thing ill be at work till 10pm tonight.

Sorry for the negative post. It's good to get it out.


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## Briss

Juniper, I was reading your post and I could just see my DH and me doing exactly that sort of thing, this is so us! I guess 90% of what we say while angry we do not really mean (I know I do not) but some of it is true. I also know that my Dh wont be able to hear anything if I raise my voice (how convenient for him!), so all these arguments are futile and only help me take it out of my system &#8230; sometimes we spent half the night going back and forth between bedroom and the leaving room with blankets and pillows&#8230; 

My DH came home seriously drank last night, I am just so angry right now, feels like it's the end of everything but I've been here many time before and I know it's going to change, I just want to get on with IVF because I do not see any other way, I am so tired&#8230;


----------



## Blythe

Juniperjules said:


> Briss said:
> 
> 
> Jazzbird, breaking dawn totally agree, I was very disappointed in my DH. I supposed it's partly my fault, I've been threatening to leave him for quite a while and DH said he is tired of living in constant fear of me leaving and at this point he just wants certainly. 3.5 years of which at least 2.5 years were under constant stress and despair on my part and I have been blaming him for our situation. and rightly so cos all he needed to do is quit beer and take his vitamins, is it too much to ask? so here we are, but I do love him and I would want children from him if that's an option, that is.
> 
> Briss, I know where you are coming from. my OH yelled at me last nite that if he does my head in so much then I should just leave him and find someone else.. And then maybe he'll be happy. Which after 18yrs is such a friggin cop out as far as im concerned.
> 
> Now I guess to be fair, I should preface those comments with explaining that this was after maybe 2 hours of me going nuts firstly. it wasn't about ttc... it was about something else.. an issue that we have been dealing with for 12 mths now. something that keeps coming up and really is threatening our relationship. At least i think it is. he doesn't- he just wants to ignore it- he has a very avoidant personality. so last nite when it came up again, i lost it. Then after lots of yelling i stopped cooking the dinner halfway through, and went to the bedroom to hide under the blankets..he came upstairs trying to cajole me, trying to hug & kiss me, trying to convince me to come downstairs and eat & watch a DVD with him & saying "I can't cook, what am I supposed to do with all this food stop being so mean".
> 
> Then maybe 30 mins later we had to jump in the car and drop something at someone's house, and while in the car my rage and venom was building up again, I started saying crap to him to purposely be nasty..and then he lost it back. And said the comment about me leaving him. Then after a few minutes silence, he said "see what you do to me- you push me & get me so angry that I say stuff I don't mean".
> 
> sometimes we do say things in anger that we regret afterwards. But I think sometimes u also say what u really mean when u are angry, emotional & u are pushed to it. So then i obsess about whether he really meant wot he said?? or did i just push him too far when he was trying his best to be nice and sweet and make things better??
> 
> Things quietened down after that. I was tired and over it. We watched a DVD but got too tired and went to bed halfway thru it. I went to bed, but then said a few more things to him (im like a dog with a bone) and he said a few angry things back to me. then he fell asleep... and i got up and went downstairs to sleep on my giant beanbag! very mature eh? i woke up at 6.30 am with him standing over me telling me to come back to bed with him. This morning he is trying to suck up to me, being sweet and trying to keep things light hearted. I'm still feeling uneasy. But am trying to keep a lid on it bcos I know that his tolerance levels if I keep it going will be very low today.
> 
> It's a really hard situation to explain to anyone else. To love someone, to have loved them for a long time. But to have a part of you that some days just says "I'm so tired, I'm worn down". Its the anxiety that gets to me. i cant handle dealing with the unknown. but then I'll have great days, days when I feel anything is possible. Days when my OH makes me laugh, we're having fun together & I feel like everything's gonna work out fine and know that I couldn't leave him.
> 
> And like you Briss, I also feel that if I'm to have a baby, it has to be with him. After all the years I've invested I'm not giving that up. Yeh there's always sperm donors, and for someone else that might be a great option. But not for me. I just know I'd never do it. If I have a baby I want it to be with the person I've given my life to for 18yrs now. Neither of us is perfect. It's a funny thing, but relationships don't get easier the longer you've been together, you'd think they would. But they get harder I think. I guess that's why the divorce rate is so high. Bcos even when you both love each other, once the "heady romantic" days are in the rear view mirror, your left with just the reality of both your personalities, histories, insecurities, dreams, and the fact that your both getting older and maybe life isn't quite what you thought it would be. And I guess that's when it's easy to hurt each other.
> 
> Hmmmm. Well now that I've completely depressed myself and all of you I better stop. Have probably got Pms right now as AF is due next Monday, and that often takes me to a bad place. I become very morose and weirdly sad. It's when OH & I have our worst arguments. Poor guy, I feel sorry for him sometimes. I really can be a sulky moody biatch when I have Pms. Probably a good thing ill be at work till 10pm tonight.
> 
> Sorry for the negative post. It's good to get it out.Click to expand...

very well said! TTC has caused an unbelievable amount of friction in my relationship and my DH knows exactly what words to say that will really stop me dead in my tracks and retreat...usually variations of...if we argue like this we shouldn't even be thinking of having another child or just straight for the kill with "im not having another child with you".

i have thought about leaving him and sat there with a calculator working stuff out but financially it would be a nightmare. That stuff aside for the most part we get on quite well but you are so very right when you say life isn't quite what i thought it would be. I love a good romcom and would love to have that sort of love but its not real, or at least not sustainable...or is it? i now have a shared history with my DH and for the bad bits there are plenty of good bits. Moreover, i have put some thought into how i would meet a new mate to procreate with and its just not happening at the age of 41...poor bloke would run a mile...if i got him in the first place...not likely with my ever receding [DHEA induced] receding hairline!! :)

i do love my DH but sometimes i think if i won the lottery i would just go full steam ahead with IVF and the sperm from some danish philosophy student [i don't fancy these types but imagine he would have good genes :thumbup:]

an acquaintance/friend told me yesterday that she was expecting. i could hardly raise a smile and could see she was expecting me to hug her. i didn't...i couldn't :( she started moaning about how poorly she felt and i then just offloaded and said i would love to be feeling sick as a dog through pregnancy. i then started rattling on about ovulation sticks and lack of sex and could see she was glazing over....of course she did. i felt quite bad after because she just wanted to share her happy news.


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## gingmg

My parents have been happily married for almost 40 years. If you ask them their secret to a happy marriage, they both say the same thing. 1. Low expectations 2. Similar long term goals
It sounds aweful to say low expectations, but when you think about it is kinda true. They don't expect the other person to make them happy, give them everything, or always do or behave how they would want. I know it sounds aweful to say they don't expect much from the other, but when I see how happy they are, I start to think they might be on to something. 
Now if I could only learn to take their advice, cuz we have been bickering over everything!


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## Breaking Dawn

Hi ladies....

DH and I have only been married for 3.5 yrs....

We do have our arguments but fortunately TTC is something we don't argue about.

I do worry about the stress it causes and wonder if other arguments are really TTC stress related.


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## gingmg

Just to add to what I wrote before...
I don't mean that they have zero expectations of the other. They feel like the big things of a happy marriage go without saying, love, honesty, communication, trust, ect, ect, ect. But they both say that the biggest thing is not to expect too much, because then you are always disappointed. My wife gets so mad when she hears them say "low expectations" because she feels like it minimizes all the other things that make a marriage last. But if I could be as happy as they are in 39 years, I would be one lucky girl.


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## Breaking Dawn

Ging....

I totally understand ' low expectations '

But I think it has negative connotations ...like your wife says it feels like it minimizes other things.

I feel like a different way to word it is....'don't expect anything' 

I think this is true for every relationship.....or anything for that matter.

Give love freely and expect nothing in return
Give gifts freely and don't expect a gift back
Etc
Etc

It's like a couple who have a wedding and expect gifts of money and then are insulted by guests who don't deliver.

I hope I made some sense at what I'm trying to get at.


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## gingmg

I didn't mean to offend or upset anyone from my earlier post or to imply that anyone was doing anything wrong. I hope no one felt that I was minimizing their current struggles, that was not my intention at all. When I read Blythe's post about wondering if there was such a thing as the perfect love or relationship, it made me think of what my parents always say. I have this aweful habit lately of sticking my foot in my mouth and saying all the wrong things.


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## Jazzbird

Interesting discussions ladies. 

I agree with the overall sentiment. I know what your folks mean gingmg. For me I think it's almost enjoying the monotony - someone to cook with, wash dirty pants for ;-), work out finances with .... And then have occasional amazing times. But we're all brainwashed by Hollywood but the film always ends when the relationship truly begins. 

Briss - it makes more sense since you explained the history with dh. 

Juniper - relationships are so tough. 18 years is something to be proud of.


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## Jazzbird

Ps "we must be willing to let go of the life we planned so as to have the life that's waiting for us" 

Love this quote. Not quite low expectations but letting go of preconceived ideas.


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## Juniperjules

gingmg, absolutely no offence taken here my friend. I love that we can all chat about this & get input from other perspectives.. If I only wanted my own opinion I wouldn't be posting here! ; ) 

I think having no expectations is a good way of putting it. But to be honest, I do have very low expectations. So low infact that sometimes I wonder if I have allowed my OH to not feel the need to live up to anything. He isn't a horrible person, he's a nice guy, he has a good heart- so I don't want to 'bag' him.. But he is an only child, an only son of immigrant parents, an alcoholic father & a mother who is a religious zealot ( I won't mention the religion but they are well known for being strange & annoying!).. So his upbringing was definitely very different to mine. And I think it has made him quite self centred- bcos he HAD to be. He often acts like a single person but is shocked when I point that out. He just doesn't get it. He spent his life learning to look after only himself bcos often no one else was probably looking out for him. I think he had a very lonely childhood. I on the other hand am the older child, also of immigrant parents but a very close family. My father has always had a drink problem, so even as a 10 yr old I had decided I had to 'look after' everyone. And I still do. However both my parents are gorgeous loving people. 

So sometimes I really do see how the life u have had shapes ur relationships, & how u function within them. I think I have probably been TOO accepting of low expectations... But I've done it bcos Ive also seen the good things in him & the kind of sad childhood he had.


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## Blythe

gingmg said:


> My parents have been happily married for almost 40 years. If you ask them their secret to a happy marriage, they both say the same thing. 1. Low expectations 2. Similar long term goals
> It sounds aweful to say low expectations, but when you think about it is kinda true. They don't expect the other person to make them happy, give them everything, or always do or behave how they would want. I know it sounds aweful to say they don't expect much from the other, but when I see how happy they are, I start to think they might be on to something.
> Now if I could only learn to take their advice, cuz we have been bickering over everything!

i totally relate to this. My poor old mum expected far too much from my dad...from everyone really. She did not get the concept that we are ultimately responsible for ourselves and still expects her happiness to come from others. she is now by herself :(


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## Briss

Ladies I totally agree that quite often I find that life isn't quite what i thought it would be. But I did think I will have children later in life, I just thought it would be extremely easy and I will have many&#8230; We've been together about 12 years now, he's changed a lot during this time and is very different from the person I met and fell in love with. I guess I probably also changed. I also agree with Blythe that meeting a new mate might be tricky. we broke up with hubby about 6 years into our relationship and spent almost a year apart before getting married. I am ashamed to say that during this year I did not manage to find a new man, no one seemed good enough but if I found smb interesting he would not usually fancy me in return so nothing worked out in the end. I was younger then so I guess it will be even harder now. tbh just a thought that I'd need to go through dating all over again makes me feel exhausted and I loose any will to carry on. I hated dating. Danish philosophy student for a sperm donor sounds appealing but then again meeting a person and having relationship with him is part of the process of choosing the right genes for your future child. I believe it happens on some higher level without us realising it but that's important.

Blythe, I totally understand why you could not hold it any longer, one thing I cant stand is people moaning about how poorly they feel while pregnant. they have perfect right to do so but not to me, I do not want to hear this because I actually feel happy when I am throwing up in my office's bathroom during TWW hoping it's a good sign. usually it just turns out to be something I ate of course but at least for a moment I feel hopeful and happy. If she knows about your TTC straggles I cant believe she meant well in sharing her news. 

gingmg, your parents marriage does look like a great success! thanks for sharing we all can learn from them. when my mom was vising she noticed that when my DH and I argue it's as if we are doing it on purpose to each other, we take it in turns to make sure the argument never stops and accelerate it as much as possible. It's probably true but it's so hard to see it like that once you are in the middle of it. Having said that I think my expectations are very low.

Juniper, I feel the same. I do not expect anything from my DH except for sperm! I completely take care of myself and cover all of my financial costs, I work and do everything at home (well I do not cook but then he rarely eats at home any way) I do not depend on my DH in any way (and may be that's the problem actually), all I am asking is that he gives me plenty of good quality sperm. is this too much to ask?? I do feel like he is having a really easy life compared to me. I do wonder whether I just allowed him to feel that he does not need to do anything because if he does not do it I usually would pick it up and do it myself. My DH was brought up without a father figure so maybe he just does not know what's expected from him? 

Juzzbird, I am not sure I quite understand "we must be willing to let go of the life we planned so as to have the life that's waiting for us"? it sort of implies that there is a life that we are supposed to have regardless of what we actually want from life that we may not necessarily have any ability to make any changes to this life? what if one does not want to live the life that's waiting for him? Maybe I just find it hard to let go of control 

afm, had really tough time today, had to do a presentation to the firms' local officers in several countries globally (I hate these things!). It completely drained me, so stressful! as if working 12 hours a day is not enough they make me do extra curriculum activities. so glad it's finally over. I also closed a deal today! I am still waiting for a response from Create as to when we can start our IVF. I hope we can start next week, I really cant take it any longer. I want to try it and see what happens. I still have not looked at my insides on the MRI CD, I think I should know how it all looks like but quite scary :)


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## Jazzbird

Briss - I think it means you have to let go of the things you can't control even if you don't like the outcome. It's like my other favourite saying: grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can and the wisdom to know the difference. 

If I tried 10 ivfs and they all failed at some point I would have to accept that I would not have a natural child of my own. As hard as that is, I think the saying is advising you to let go, because perhaps there is another path that you will take and clinging on to something you can't control will make you miserable. 

This is how I interpret it although I'm sure it is hard to live out in practice. 

I had a row about my commute with oh today. I feel so wired and stressed commuting 4 hours. Dh doesn't really sympathise because he has a very stressful job and i take lots of time off between contracts. I look after myself completely financially as well. Just sometimes it'd be nice to have oh step up and say don't do it - ill take care of you but I guess that thinking is not in our generation. Damn women's lib ;-)


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## Briss

Jazzbird, that's also my favourite saying! but this is it - the wisdom to know the difference! the irony of this saying is that you can almost never know whether you can change anything or you cant. but looking at your example with 10 ivfs, I think even then I wont accept the defeat, until I am able physically to conceive I cannot see how I can stop trying ever, up until I go deep into menopause it is still possible and I will be trying and hoping. I am worried though that I might be wasting precious years trying to have a child with DH, maybe he just cant and I need to move on. maybe he can I just need to persevere. I do not have the wisdom to know the difference :)

4 hour commute is really tough! I feel for you.

I have to say that I think I secretly curse feminists... women had easy lives before now I feel like I have to manage everything I am both a man and a woman, while men are turning into some sort of weak creatures, where are the heros?


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## Jazzbird

Oh yes the wisdom part is the sticking point 

I think you may feel differently after 10 rounds of ivf - none of us can predict how we will feel. I think if it ever came to that you will feel in your heart it would be time to move on. 

But you are still very young! And I know women with far slimmer chances who have gone on to have their own baby. You haven't tried ivf yet. 

Of course you want your husbands baby - it is only natural. I know it might feel like you are wasting time but my friend got pregnant at 36 through ivf from her husband who had something on bordering on 3% morphology and he had poor motility. 

I think you just need to mark some deadlines in the calendar. If I haven't conceived by x then we will try y. If ivf doesn't succeed after x number of times we will do z. 

Putting some goals and timeframe around it might help you to feel you are not wasting time. You are doing the very best you can do and when you lay your head to rest at night - you at least know this. 

I know what you're saying re modern men. Where have the real men gone?! The ones who feel they should provide and care for their woman. It's all so 50/50 now and it's depressing. Especially when popping out a child can never be 50/50. The woman always shoulders the pregnancy, birth, and most of the first few years.


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## Blythe

Here is a little observation about the use of OPKs and Smiley face CB ones. after using them i line them up so i can see the progression day by day...now then on normal IC i line them up and use the most solid line as the +opk. using that same logic i put my smiley face sticks side by side and whilst i got a smiley face CD12 AM the line itself was not sold and dark until CD13 AM...so if i had been using these as normal opks i could potentially have mistimed by BD sessions. I guess i would have seen the line darkening and BD but this cycle i was purposely waiting for a strong opk before BDing.

Anyhow, not really that interesting but thought i would share. I guess what im trying to say is that the smiley faces seem to be much more sensitive and you get your +opk before normal opks so perhaps BD for a day longer than your would normally!
 



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## Breaking Dawn

Very interesting conversation ladies...loved reading your opinions!

My parents are also reaching thier 40 th anniversary. And they have had up and downs but they tough it out and then keep going. 

My DH and I have very different up bringings...i have a large loving close family where we enjoy spending time together and get along. He comes from a small family that is not close and has unstable relationships.

I believe that your upbringing positively and negatively impacts your marriage for sure! 

Blythe. I have done the same opk comparison.

Bc the digi is so black and white and cannot show different degrees of positive like the new non-digi opks I feel that it shows the smiley at different time then the darkest opks.

makes total sense...but I don't think it could cause you to kiss ovulation unless it was days apart!


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## Briss

Blythe, I've been playing with different types of OPK last year quite a bit and compared them to CBFM on different cycles (what a waste of money, all in the name of science), it was quite interesting but in the end I concluded that CBFM just tops (obviously my current cycle proves otherwise but I am hoping this is just a one off). and I guess CBFM is similar to smilie face, it's just with CBFM in 90% cycles (out of my 24!) and judging by my temp I ovulate on my second PEAK, whereas with OPK (depending on the type of OPK, brand and my hormones playing up) it can be anything between the day before I get a true positive and 2 days after so planning BD is really hard particularly with low sperm count when I really need to make sure we do it one time but this time counts. I am trying to BD as close as possible to O but have at least 2-3 day break between BD so he had time to build up his count. why does it have to be this hard! btw, Create was supposed to call me today but did not. I have only 4 working days before my next cycle I really do not want to miss it. 

Jazzbird, what is there next after IVF? I do not think there is anything, it's the last stop really.


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## Juniperjules

Blythe, I like the smiley opks. But I've gotta say I'm over all opks. I've managed to miss seeing a smiley twice in 3 or 4 cycles recently. Either bcos I stupidly ran out, or bcos the stick started flashing with the little textbook picture & I had no idea wot that meant except 'problem!'. And I was at work & couldn't do another. Both times I basically knew it was that day based on history (always cd 13) & physical signs so it wasn't the end of the world...but it still leaves u with an annoyed irritated feeling. 

I've almost successfully managed to completely avoid symptom spotting this month. My heads been so full of IVF stuff that I kind of havent put any hope in getting a bfp naturally- strangely liberating actually! But in the last day or so I have felt some maybe unusual things. I was putting fake tan on yesterday & standing with one leg on the bath leaning over to do my legs (sorry for the visual!), and I felt a little pain in my abdo area.. Best way I describe it is it felt like I was squashing something? My uterus? My bowel?? Not sure. But I've had the same little niggly feeling a few times today as well. Particularly when peeing! Sorry for tmi, but I'm always in a hurry cos in at work, & so I kind of try to pee fast & 'push' if that makes sense??? And when I do that, I'm getting this same little discomfort. It's weird. Probably a bloody UTI brewing!! : ) anyway, I'm feeling it but in my head I know it's nothing. 

Am away to a sunny beach destination called Byron Bay on Monday.. Can't wait. Gonna read books in the sun.. Eat tapas & relax. AF is due Monday so once she comes I may even have one or two glasses of wine.

Briss, I'd be calling that clinic every hour if I were you! Poor customer service to keep u waiting.


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## Jazzbird

Briss - after ivf perhaps you might consider donor sperm ... I dont know theres always donor eggs as well. Afm if ivf repeatedly fails I think I would look into adoption. Although I can't predict how I will feel. 

Juniper it sounds like an exciting symptom - keep us posted. 

I've stopped monitoring this cycle - no temping no poas! Decided just to bd every other day until I see ewcm then bd every day for 3 days. 

How's everyone else?


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## gingmg

I have my IVF consult next week, so I actually am not thinking about this 2WW at all either. I'm thinking about what I am going to ask next week and what the Re might tell us. I'd like to do a few injectable cycles with IUI before moving on to IVF though. I don't think it makes sense for me to go from clomid/trigger to IVF. I really do want to do injecatbles first, then I would be comfortable moving on. Also, I am only 2 weeks not smoking, so I want to give my body some time to heal and see if not smoking makes any difference. 
That's all here.


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## Briss

Jazzbird, donor sperm/egg/adoption.... really? do not get me wrong i admire people who are capable of such charity, that's effectively what it is - an unbelievable act of kindness and charity towards somebody else's children... it also often means giving up on your own. so many IVF clinics are forcing women into egg donation to improve their success rates, it leads to too many personal tragedies


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## Jazzbird

I guess I'm trying to say that after 10+ multiple ivf failures a person hasn't theoretically come to the end of the line to become a parent.

If my oh had poor sperm and we had tried multiple ivfs, almost ran out of money and time - I would consider donor sperm. Probably not donor eggs though. 

And yes ultimately I think I would consider adoption. I don't really see it as charity more an opportunity for me to fulfil a part of myself. 

I guess after several years I would feel tired of hoping and tired of disappointment and tired of medication and might want to love someone even if they're not my flesh and blood. 

It's very personal and i know everyone feels very differently about it. And I don't really know how I'd feel several years down the line. And adoption is a long, tough process - so who knows. 

I'm looking at a career change to start teaching music - who knows how this might affect me. 

I feel it helps me to know and believe there are other options. It helps me to relax a bit. I hope I don't offend. It's all so different for everyone.


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## gingmg

I guess in some ways I have a little bit of an advantage when it comes to donor eggs, because I would use my wife's. I don't want it to have to come to that, but it's an option though I guess in the future if IVF doesn't work for me. It would break my heart, but I would do it. My wife has zero desire to carry and as far as I am concerned it's not an option for me anyway. I don't think I could handle it. We both kind of joke that it would take for her on the first try, because carrying a child is not something she wants anyway so she's probably super fertile. That is how she pretty much got me to quit smoking by saying "do you want me to have to carry this baby?" NO WAY!!


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## Briss

gingmg. I guess it's tricky in same sex couples cos you cant share a biological child. how did you decide whose egg to use? why not your egg if you are carrying it? you can also have another child with your egg after that :) the great thing is that you stopped smoking!! please share how you are getting on and what you do when things get hard? I want my brother to quit and would appreciate your advice as to what works

I read interviews with various fertility practitioners and most said there usually no reason to use donor eggs if woman still has her own (however small in number), it's down to the right IVF protocol. IVf clinics do not want to bother in trying to find the right way to get a women pregnant and just force her into donor eggs cos it's easier for them. if IVF is not successful after several attempts time to change the clinic. many agree to donor eggs without realising what it actually means, it's the hardest thing to bring up a child who is not your own. i think people who do it consciously are super humans, it's a major sacrifice


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## Jazzbird

Gingmg - sounds like a nice plan to have a backup egg  And yes its fab you are making progress with giving up smoking.

Briss - its interesting to read your comment about bringing up a child who is not your own. My Aunt adopted & a lady at work blogged a lot about her experience going through the adoption process. Both have said it feels to them as though the child is their own. But I'm sure there are loads of others who don't have as positive experiences.

I must confess I know very little about donor eggs and ivf clinics advising on it. I guess they must have some baseline criteria which if you fall below, they advise - based on statistical analysis. But I really don't rate ivf clinics - when I spoke to them they said something like 1/3 of their patients have unexplained fertility - which means that they can't know that much about fertility. Its a high percentage.

Anyway - hopefully none of us will come to this. Sooner or later there has to be a BFP on this forum ...


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## gingmg

As far as quitting smoking, it's soooo hard. You have to be really ready and committed to it. I've tried to quit many times, but was always unsuccessful. The desire to carry a baby was the motivating driving force. 

I guess I just really really wanted it, in a way that I didn't before. The first few days all I did was walk because I didn't know what else to do with myself. I think we walked for over 6 hours a day. Then I went to bed around 7 pm (took melatonin) every night because I just needed the day to end. There has been lots of crying, every few hours I cry but that's ok. I'm also wearing the patch. I bought one of those fake cigs, so even though it has nicotine at least holding it and seeing the smoke come out of mouth was somewhat gratifying, although no where near the same as smoking. I only did that for a few days though.

I basically needed lots of strategies and constantly. I kept telling myself if you smoke you have to start over and there is no way I wanted to go back to day 1,2,3. It got better after that. I keep doing things that I don't associate with smoking, going to the mall, the movies, the gym, ect. Purposely putting myself in environments that are smoke free, that I wouldn't be smoking anyway. Taking about 3 showers a day. It was all about wasting hours until I made it through another day and could go to sleep. If it got real bad I would say "ok you can have a cig in a few hours, but not now". The idea of never smoking again was too much, but I could handle it if I thought it was only for a few hours.

I chew lots of gum and eat hard candy, carrots, and celery. I take multiple deep breaths an hour sometimes multiple a minute. I set up a bank account to see how much money we are saving.

Driving is still hard for me, so I do some yoga ohms (sp?) or see how long I can hold a note. It vibrates in the back of my throat and somehow it helps. I also sometimes still hold that fake cig while I'm driving, even though it doesn't work anymore, but it makes me feel better to at least hold it while driving. I also cut straws in half and actually inhale and exhale like I am smoking, only its fresh air.

I've been eating a lot, and I'm sure I'm going to gain weight, but I'll deal with that later. I reward myself with something daily. At work on my breaks I take the elevator down to the first floor then walk up the 7 flights to my floor, so that I'm out of breath by the time I get up to the top and don't want to smoke anymore. I pretty much need strategies for everything I do. I don't drink alcohol anymore, I don't trust myself. I think if I had a glass of wine or two, I'd want to smoke.

I have signs around the house with the reasons why I am quitting. 

The first few days I thought about smoking about every second, now it's probably every hour. Maybe next week it will be every few hours, then hopefully maybe just daily, ect, ect. The headaches are getting better too. 

I don't know if any of these things will work for your brother. You have to REALLY REALLY be ready. I have tried everything too, hypnotist, acupuncture, meds, the patch, ect. I realized there was going to be no easy way and that the only way was just sucking it up and going through it. Then it was just a matter of finding some coping strategies to get through each day. I hope he can quit. My lungs already feel so much better.


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## Blythe

Jazzbird said:


> I guess I'm trying to say that after 10+ multiple ivf failures a person hasn't theoretically come to the end of the line to become a parent.
> 
> If my oh had poor sperm and we had tried multiple ivfs, almost ran out of money and time - I would consider donor sperm. Probably not donor eggs though.
> 
> And yes ultimately I think I would consider adoption. I don't really see it as charity more an opportunity for me to fulfil a part of myself.
> 
> I guess after several years I would feel tired of hoping and tired of disappointment and tired of medication and might want to love someone even if they're not my flesh and blood.
> 
> It's very personal and i know everyone feels very differently about it. And I don't really know how I'd feel several years down the line. And adoption is a long, tough process - so who knows.
> 
> I'm looking at a career change to start teaching music - who knows how this might affect me.
> 
> I feel it helps me to know and believe there are other options. It helps me to relax a bit. I hope I don't offend. It's all so different for everyone.

Hi Jazzbird - hope you are well:flower:

i saw that you are considering a change of career. Is there really no way you can make a go of your acupuncture work. Could you perhaps hire a room for a day or two in a local practice and build up your clientele. You have a great way of explaining things and clearly a passion for medicine. It would be great to earn money doing something you have studied so hard for.


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## Briss

gingmg, thanks so much for sharing. OMG it looks incredibly tough, you are such a hero for doing it! I am sure you will get a bfp soon to keep you going. I particularly love your idea to set up a bank account to see how much money we are saving - I am totally recommending it to my brother! I find it so motivating when I was trying not to drink coffee I was observing how much I was saving on my daily lattes, turned out quite a lot! 

Jazzbird, also look at it from the child's perspective, would not he want to know who his biological parents are and where he comes from? one needs to feel a connection to the people who lived before him and who all contributed to what he is. you understand a lot about yourself when you learn about your parents, grandparent etc sure some contributed more than others but in the end there will be very little in you that you cant trace to somebody in your family tree 

when I look at myself I see my father, I miss him so much and it's really important for me to know that he lives on in me...


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## Jazzbird

Awwwww Blythe - thank you for your post. Whilst I would love to practice it is actually very expensive to practice. It cost 600 to be a member of British acupuncture council. Room rental is 50 per day. Most of my graduating class have stopped as they are loss making. My town is saturated with acupuncturists - and to be honest I would want to train in herbs. I would want to keep it as low cost to my patients as possible and I think herbs is a good way to do this. 

Then there is the issue of it actually working. People respond very differently. When I practiced in the student clinic - I had a few great successes and a few that didn't seem to improve. This was partly due to their lifestyle, partly probably to my inexperience and just the cold hard truth that it doesn't always work for every condition and every person. 

I don't know really. We're not really at a stage financially where I could just gamble a few thousand away. So much of acupuncture and its success comes down to patients accepting the reason why they are ill from a Chinese medical perspective and changing their lifestyle. But so few patients actually believe it and want proof before they change. It's not an easy job. It's frustrating. But it can be amazing when you watch someone slowly heal over time.


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## Jazzbird

Briss - yes I do understand the desire to know your parents. I love watching long lost family and its nearly always the parent searching for the child they gave up. The adopted child seems happy to meet them but generally satisfied with their lives until they meet them - there is an inexplicable bond. 

But many children have a terrible start in life and aren't wanted. My heart just breaks for them to think of a child who doesn't know what it is to be loved. 

Perhaps I'm just naive and I've watched too many TV movies


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## Blythe

yes i can imagine there is nothing better than having a positive impact on someones health and making them feel better.

i hate to butt in on the adoption thing but clearly our views on this are conditioned by our own experiences/family background and so strong feelings can be aroused one way or the other.

i see both my mothers and fathers face when i look in the mirror and i hate it...my father has had nothing to do with me for years and when i sent him a picture of my child he did not even respond. My mother was not a good one. My mum is good with pets and not too bad with boys but was not very keen on me. I spent much of my childhood jealous of my friends who had close loving families, this includes my friends who were adopted [i dont much remember them being envious of my situation]. I make a very conscious effort be nothing like my parents...some of this stuff is genetic but thankfully alot of it isn't. The one family member who had the biggest impact on me as a child was my granddad....he was my nan's second husband so no blood relative. He loved me so much and made me feel so safe.

my reasons for not starting this process is that i am still in this shitty fog of ttc...im so sure it will happen and so keep on going. Other women's eggs hold no appeal for me but adoption does appeal.

i don't want to offend but i am supporting a friend through this process at the moment and she has really opened my eyes to things.


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## Briss

I am sure there are many unwanted children and whoever adopts them is very kind and it gives him credit. but it can never replace having your biological child and passing your genes on to the next generation. it's just two very different things, but one can do both actualy.


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## Briss

Blythe, I appreciate your view. and I am sorry about your farther, it must have been very hard for you. the important thing is that you have a child (and I very much hope you will have another very soon)! my father will never know his grandchild and I blame myself entirely for this. I understood the whole meaning of having children far too late for him 

adoption/donors is a very sensitive topic and everyone is entitled to their opinion. it's fine we do not have to agree on this. I am very interested in everyone's views. but I just wanted to stress that it is not for everyone. you have to have certain qualities to handle this. it is a very difficult decision and it cannot replace your need for your own child because so many people mistakenly think that this is an option once they are not successful with IVF, they adopt a child and only then realise (often several years on) that they cannot handle it. and return the child back :( causing the child enormous trauma. unfortunately this happens far too often. exactly for the reason I said, people have no idea what's involved.


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## Jazzbird

Blythe - please post about your friend adopting. How long has she been going through this process? Has she found a child? What ages are they?


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## Blythe

Briss said:


> Blythe, I appreciate your view. and I am sorry about your farther, it must have been very hard for you. the important thing is that you have a child (and I very much hope you will have another very soon)! my father will never know his grandchild and I blame myself entirely for this. I understood the whole meaning of having children far too late for him
> 
> adoption/donors is a very sensitive topic and everyone is entitled to their opinion. it's fine we do not have to agree on this. I am very interested in everyone's views. but I just wanted to stress that it is not for everyone. you have to have certain qualities to handle this. it is a very difficult decision and it cannot replace your need for your own child because so many people mistakenly think that this is an option once they are not successful with IVF, they adopt a child and only then realise (often several years on) that they cannot handle it. and return the child back :( causing the child enormous trauma. unfortunately this happens far too often. exactly for the reason I said, people have no idea what's involved.


quite right....parenting [biological or otherwise] is not for everyone which is often why kids end up in the care system :(


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## Blythe

Jazzbird said:


> Blythe - please post about your friend adopting. How long has she been going through this process? Has she found a child? What ages are they?

my friend is a very mothering type...ever since i first met her she has always wanted to be a mother...for her that was what being a woman was all about. i never got it [that yearning to mother a child] when i was younger but i do now. she has always struggled with a weight problem...quite a big problem and whilst she had a couple of major relationships none worked out although i know she was not using any form of contraception.....she would have had no issues getting pregnant with an unsuitable mate as she wanted to be pregnant so badly. her weight issues have led to issues with her periods...lack of them and then periods where she would be laid up through massive blood loss.

anyhow, the years go by and she was still adamant she would get pregnant but it was not until two years ago she joined a diet club [a liquid only counselling sort of thing] and started seriously thinking about starting the adoption process. For her that point came when the possibility of pregnancy had gone...she had to have the coil fitted to manage her cycles such was the torture of her periods. She began with an open day put on by local borough...completed the forms and so began what has been a very drawn out process. It has involved many meetings, in her home and at their offices to assess her suitability. She also had to leave her old house as you need to have a separate bedroom at the very beginning of the process. she is single and living in London so thats been a bit tricky trying to pay the rent on a 2 bedroom property.

anyhow, at the beginning of this year she was so sure she would have her child by the end of this year...we talked alot about positive thinking and about talking about your future as if its already your present. but over the months she has, like us, lost heart and is not sure if she will be offered a child. she is now 46 so it is unlikely she will get a younger child and of course there are so many things to consider when you have an older child, particularly if they come from a troubled background. anyhow, at her last meeting [well it was a panel session The panel consists of about 6 people i.e. social workers, doctors, teachers, lawyers etc. who will have read through her report which itself is the result of a series of meetings/interviews etc.] she was told she would need to lose 2.5 stone and another panel was rescheduled for 6 months.

Obviously to be a parent you want to be fit and healthy and from the outside looking in i have often thought if its that important you would lose it, stop smoking, stop eating sugar, stop drinking caffeine etc etc etc but its so difficult to tackle these things. Her weight issue is very much an emotional one. she is by far the most balanced woman i know and such a natural mother figure. i long for her to succeed in her quest to be a mother. If this fails i don't know what she will do.


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## Jazzbird

Blythe - thanks for sharing. It seems like such a horrendous process to go through. Obviously it's good to make sure someone is in good health but I can't help but feel they are far too over the top asking someone to lose weight, give up sugar. 

I also agree adopting an older child would be so very difficult - behavioural problems etc. it most certainly is not for the faint hearted. 

Coud she foster first? Sometimes you can adopt after you foster a child for a while? 

I hope she finds a child. It's awful to think of children growing up unloved in homes and good people like your friend desperately wanting a child.


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## Briss

Blythe, I am very sorry for your friend, this is so unfair that somebody who is practically born to be a mother and always wanted it cant have it, I hope it will turn out well for her. I cant understand why weight is a problem for parenting? I can understand that it might be difficult to get pregnant when you are overweight but when you are adopting, what does it matter?


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## Blythe

I think it's just a health thing as I guess they require prospective parents to be be fit and well. She used to be obese and I guess she still is but she has lost a great deal. I suppose they want to know she can run round after the child etc

On another matter, earlier on My DH said "we could be pregnant this time next week" he was really positive (he's also a bit pissed!) He never mentions pregnancy etc although had a go at me earlier for the needle thingy. I'm not sure if you saw my post on the other thread. I also tried it on DH hand (for babies rather than pregnancies) and it was the same as mine. If you are game I would love to know what yours is. I said to myself before dipping the needle "show me babies that I get to hold and watch grow up" or something similar to that.


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## Briss

Blythe, re needle thingy I am such a coward but I am scared to do it again, what if it wont move as it did the very first time I tried it and when I did it to DH? I actually had a terrible nightmare after that :( still cant recover, because I think it actually works (I wonder if it would work for adoptive or donor children though?) I tried it on my mom while we chatted on skype and I could just see it moving showing me :) then I lost count cos she had many mc. 

It's so nice that your DH said "we could be pregnant this time next week" :) put a smile on my face, here is hoping


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## Juniperjules

Girls wots the 'needle' thing ur talking about?? I must've missed a post somewhere???

Just to jump in with my 2 bobs worth on the egg donor/ sperm/ adoption thing...

Firstly my OH would never agree to any of the above. Not a chance in hell. Briss I guess his feelings are similar to yours, that if he is to b a father, it will b to his own biological child- any other option just doesn't appeal. I would adopt quite easily, but he would not. For him it is specifically about it being HIS child. and i guess for him some of that might come from being an only child, and growing up without even having aunts, uncles, cousins, granparents around (they were all in europe). No one to really feel genuinely connected to in his family. I actually think he has no idea how a baby of our own will affect him emotionally... In a good way I mean. I think it will COMPLETELY overwhelm him to know that another little person actually 'belongs' to him- when he has spent his life mostly on his own.. Till he met me. I might not be a parent yet, but I love that same kind of feeling that I experience from my family, my younger sister, my cousins... People that I can look at and say 'you belong to me- no one can ever take that away'. Probably sounds a bit weird?? But its a feeling that fills my heart like nothing else ever can. 

Personally I wouldn't use donor eggs, bcos I would feel that if I wasn't going to end up with my own biological child then creating a non biological one is wrong when there are so many children who are in need of a home. And yes probably most are not babies. Which is a huge commitment. But adoption would make more sense for me.

However, one of my best friends will be doing a donor egg cycle in a few months. Using her nieces egg. My friend is one of the most beautiful women I have ever known. She like ur friend Blythe would be an amazing mother.. Heck she mothers me ; ) she never met the right guy, then met him at 44- got 1 year of IVF b4 being told they would only continue with donor eggs. She tried this for maybe 4 years- nothing. She is now 50. And I know most people will say that's too old now, but it's not my place to judge anyone else's life. I just know that she will be a beautiful mother. I really hope it works this time. They have spent over $100k on the IVF, it's way more expensive with donor eggs. 

And for me? definitely no to donor eggs, but yes i woild adopt. I remember she my best friend had her first 'surprise' baby.. I remember holding him & watching him and for the first time realising that I could adopt. Bcos looking down at this beautiful innocent boy & how helpless he was- I could see that if someone handed him to me and said 'he needs a mummy, someone to love and cherish him & keep him safe' that I would do it in an instant. I wouldn't think twice about his not being biologically mine. I've tried to explain it to OH before by saying 'there's a reason why I grew up in a house with so many cats and dogs- bcos whenever I saw a little innocent creature that needed help, needed love, & had no one else... Then it automatically became my job to take them in and love them' (thankfully I have parents that love animals as much as I do given all the pets we had! : ) and maybe this will sound stupid to some of you, but I know that if I can bring a cat or dog into my home & end up loving that animal SOOOOO much that I cry my heart out for 6 months when it dies.. Then I can definitely love a child that is not biologically mine, but needs me, and needs love. I KNOW a child is not a pet and is a way bigger commitment, but for me it's true. It's not about me wanting to be loved, it's about me wanting to give my love to someone else.


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## Blythe

Briss said:


> Blythe, re needle thingy I am such a coward but I am scared to do it again, what if it wont move as it did the very first time I tried it and when I did it to DH? I actually had a terrible nightmare after that :( still cant recover, because I think it actually works (I wonder if it would work for adoptive or donor children though?) I tried it on my mom while we chatted on skype and I could just see it moving showing me :) then I lost count cos she had many mc.
> 
> It's so nice that your DH said "we could be pregnant this time next week" :) put a smile on my face, here is hoping

Totally understand :flower: mine moved once for boy then stopped. I sat there about to collapse but after a while it started moving again.


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## Blythe

Juniperjules said:


> Girls wots the 'needle' thing ur talking about?? I must've missed a post somewhere???
> 
> Just to jump in with my 2 bobs worth on the egg donor/ sperm/ adoption thing...
> 
> Firstly my OH would never agree to any of the above. Not a chance in hell. Briss I guess his feelings are similar to yours, that if he is to b a father, it will b to his own biological child- any other option just doesn't appeal. I would adopt quite easily, but he would not. For him it is specifically about it being HIS child. and i guess for him some of that might come from being an only child, and growing up without even having aunts, uncles, cousins, granparents around (they were all in europe). No one to really feel genuinely connected to in his family. I actually think he has no idea how a baby of our own will affect him emotionally... In a good way I mean. I think it will COMPLETELY overwhelm him to know that another little person actually 'belongs' to him- when he has spent his life mostly on his own.. Till he met me. I might not be a parent yet, but I love that same kind of feeling that I experience from my family, my younger sister, my cousins... People that I can look at and say 'you belong to me- no one can ever take that away'. Probably sounds a bit weird?? But its a feeling that fills my heart like nothing else ever can.
> 
> Personally I wouldn't use donor eggs, bcos I would feel that if I wasn't going to end up with my own biological child then creating a non biological one is wrong when there are so many children who are in need of a home. And yes probably most are not babies. Which is a huge commitment. But adoption would make more sense for me.
> 
> However, one of my best friends will be doing a donor egg cycle in a few months. Using her nieces egg. My friend is one of the most beautiful women I have ever known. She like ur friend Blythe would be an amazing mother.. Heck she mothers me ; ) she never met the right guy, then met him at 44- got 1 year of IVF b4 being told they would only continue with donor eggs. She tried this for maybe 4 years- nothing. She is now 50. And I know most people will say that's too old now, but it's not my place to judge anyone else's life. I just know that she will be a beautiful mother. I really hope it works this time. They have spent over $100k on the IVF, it's way more expensive with donor eggs.
> 
> And for me? definitely no to donor eggs, but yes i woild adopt. I remember she my best friend had her first 'surprise' baby.. I remember holding him & watching him and for the first time realising that I could adopt. Bcos looking down at this beautiful innocent boy & how helpless he was- I could see that if someone handed him to me and said 'he needs a mummy, someone to love and cherish him & keep him safe' that I would do it in an instant. I wouldn't think twice about his not being biologically mine. I've tried to explain it to OH before by saying 'there's a reason why I grew up in a house with so many cats and dogs- bcos whenever I saw a little innocent creature that needed help, needed love, & had no one else... Then it automatically became my job to take them in and love them' (thankfully I have parents that love animals as much as I do given all the pets we had! : ) and maybe this will sound stupid to some of you, but I know that if I can bring a cat or dog into my home & end up loving that animal SOOOOO much that I cry my heart out for 6 months when it dies.. Then I can definitely love a child that is not biologically mine, but needs me, and needs love. I KNOW a child is not a pet and is a way bigger commitment, but for me it's true. It's not about me wanting to be loved, it's about me wanting to give my love to someone else.


I always love reading your posts...just a quicky. See the psychic predictions thread on over 35s towards the bottom for this crazy needle thingy. I think I believe it!


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## Blythe

https://www.babyhopeful.com/life-in-limbo/

See link for a post on living in limbo


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## Jazzbird

Juniper - your post on adoption is how I feel too. Beautifully said  not sure how I would feel about adopting a much older child though ...


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## Briss

Juniper, try the needle test if you are brave :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvC6tQEgAZ8


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## Jazzbird

But you can see the muscles in her hand moving. I'll give it a go, but I just don't think you can rule out muscle twinges


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## Briss

Jazzbird, that's what my DH said so he was trying to be absolutely still and needle did not move to my absolute horror. i am also so tense when i do the test that it either does not move or gives me 5 children including twins :)


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## Briss

Blythe said:


> https://www.babyhopeful.com/life-in-limbo/
> 
> See link for a post on living in limbo

Blythe, thank you! that's so good to read smb who understands what's it like. I think my mini pregnant me makes all the decisions. It's like my normal me does not even exist anymore. 

I definitely:

- Are you sure you should book that holiday so far in advance? You might be pregnant by then.
- "Dont look for a new job yet. You wont get maternity pay if youve only been at your new job a couple of months. Also, it wont look good if you start there and the first thing you tell them is that youre pregnant.
- Dont progress up the career ladder too far yet. You dont want too much responsibility if youre going to be a full time mum soon!

I am officially Living in Limbo Land and have been for at least 3 years...


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## Juniperjules

I refuse to live in limbo land. A good friend warned me about this, shes the one about to have ivf twins. she told me that with her first child (also ivf) she put everything off, including doing a post grad midwifery course (was already a nurse). she put it off for 2 or 3 years, then said stuff it and started it... halfway thru it she got pregnant with ivf. so I kind of feel like when u put things off it almost 'jinxes' ur chances... So now I book holidays, I enrol in Uni every semester (am doing a degree a few subjects at a time every semester), I tell myself that if I end up pregnant then who cares if I miss a holiday? Who cares if I have to pull out of Uni? If I get pregnant nothing else will really matter anymore. Ill be too happy to care!


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## Juniperjules

Ps... Am off on holiday with mum tomoro & we are def going do the needle experiment!! Mum had me,4 miscarriages, then my sister.. She was once told that 'maybe' the m/c's were boys & perhaps she couldn't carry boys.. Will b interesting to see what happens. 

Oh on that note, my chromosome tests came back (was being checked bcos mum had so many m/c) and the results were all ok! Very pleased about that!


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## Blythe

i did my mums one without even contacting her. i just asked it to show me my mums babies and it showed all of us.

as i mentioned i have tried it on myself for pregnancies and then for babies that i get to take home etc etc....i have done it numerous times with the same result each time.

Briss - i understand not wanting to do it on yourself....maybe try and see if it shows you your mums babies on your hand.


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## Jazzbird

But does it work in a situation where the person holding the needle has no knowledge of that person's children? That's really the only proper test you can do.

I used to do this a lot when I was a child. Don't know how I knew about it, but we used to do it.

I feel I am a sensitive (not psychic, but sensitive). I have always had this feeling that I wouldn't have children. Even when I played the Game of Life as a child, I never landed on the children squares and always wound up at the end of the Game of Life with no blue or pink pins in my car :-(

I also saw a few psychics. One of whom said I had wonderful qualities that would make me a great Mum and another psychic who told me that there would be no children in my future.

The problem with these divination methods is that the needle will probably move with the most subtle of muscular twinges ... and even mental intention. When at acupuncture college - we were taught that we had to not only needle a patient but focus our attention on the intention of what we were doing. Mental energy can transform into the physical.

I think when its all a harmless bit of fun - its ok. But like Briss said earlier - if the needle didn't move she was horrified. 

I'm not sure I would do it. I'm too worried about it enough as it is, without second guessing a needle


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## Briss

Jazzbird, I am with you on that one. But when I asked my mom to do the test I did not explain anything about it, she had no idea what she was doing or what to expect. she was holding the needle and then it just started doing circles :) I am begging my aunty to do it, she has no children I am really curious what needle is going to do. mom promised not to tell her a thing about the test. 

I have to work this weekend so annoying, as if working 10-12 hours a day during the week is not enough... 

re herbs, they were actually helping with tender breasts in TWW. while i was on herbs it was quite rare that I would get it, now it's all back, so sensitive. it starts at about 5-7 DPO and does not end until CD1. any even occasional touch just hurts


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## Jazzbird

Hey Briss

Ooooh well let me know how the other experiment goes! Who knows. I am definitely more of a believer in things you can't see or explain. And when science does explain, they just assign a formalised term for it. They are apparently close to discovering what "Qi" is.

The symptoms you describe is Liver Qi Stagnation. You can massage Liver 3 which is located about 1.5 inches from the web of your big toe and second toe towards the ankle - if that makes sense. It is like a V shape where the two bones of your toes meet. Press hard with your thumb and really give it a good massage. It can be quite tender.

Although this point is not advised if you have conceived. Its very good for all PMT symptoms. 

Failing that, do more exercise - this is supposed to move Qi which has become stuck or stagnated.


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## Briss

Jazzbird, thanks, it does look like Liver Qi Stagnation. although i do not mind it as much as early ovulation. it's even sort of positive cos it helps me imagine myself pregnant :) dream on...

I always wondered what "Qi" is. it's not something that western medicine recognises but yet I am sure it exists. maybe it's a combination of things known to western medicine? 

I should really do more yoga, why cant i make myself do it regularly.


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## Jazzbird

I love yoga but find it hard to carve out the time. My hamstrings are ridiculously tight so I can't do half the poses. In fact I noticed that all the conception poses involve hamstrings ... And all the insomnia ones too. Perhaps there is a link.

I think for pms a good brisk walk is the best to get the blood pumping. I think yoga helps with energising the whole body but I feel (intuitively not with any basis) that you need to get the blood pumping to move liver qi. But no running or pounding in a treadmill as this weakens kidney energy essential for conception. 

I know what you are saying about dreaming on when someone says you could be pregnant. I just don't believe it will happen to me. If it ever does ill be shocked.


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## Briss

Jazzbird, I am sure you will get your BFP soon cos your stats are brilliant and as I said most over 35 get pregnant naturally within a year, I do not think you have been TTC for a year yet so it's definitely going to happen.


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## Jazzbird

Ah bless you Briss. 

I'm sorry I know you guys have been ttc for a long long time. My whining must seem so hollow. 

Hope everyone has a wonderful day today. So beautiful and sunny in London.


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## Juniperjules

So AF arrived today. Bugger. 

But on the upside I can now have a few cheeky bevy's with my mum by the pool! ; ) just a few mind you, I'm not much of a drinker, I barely even have 1 drink a month when not ttc. But I've still got one more AF to come b4 IVF starts, so after this week ill b back to teetotal again! 

I don't feel very miserable about AF arriving I guess bcos I'm looking forward towards IVF. But I was saying to my mum today, when I really think about it, my head just says..WTF??? why am I not getting pregnant? When all my results & tests are good??? Wot the hell?!?

It does make me wonder a little, wot difference will it make to do IVF? I guess the one thing I am thinking is that I don't really know that my right Fallopian tube is patent. My HSG wasn't really able to give me a definitive answer on that. So I could really have only one tube working. Which means that only 50% of the months actually have a chance of working.....


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## Jazzbird

Juniper - so sorry about af BUT its your ivf month and there is a good chance this could be your magic month. I hear you on the stats issue. I know women with very low AMH who are older and conceive easily. There is almost no point in getting tested - it all seems so random. 

One thing my specialist warned me is that whilst my reserve seems good this is no indication of quality. 

But fingers crossed this is your month - I'm excited for you!


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## Briss

Juniper I am very sorry about AF, it's always so depressing. great that we have IVF to look forward to. although I am not sure now if I am doing it. 

I've been under so much stress this weekend, all work related, worked until 2 am last night and carried on in the morning&#8230; around midnight my DH turned up at home drank! apparently I was very stressed and said something he did not like, sufficient excuse for him to spend an evening at a pub! we had a major argument and he left&#8230; he did not return. I am so tired of this, on top of my very stressful 24/7 job and TTC nightmare. when things are going to get better??


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## Jazzbird

Ps I think going through the ivf process is very useful for diagnostic purposes too. You have nothing to lose and everything to gain by giving it a shot!


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## Jazzbird

Hugs Briss. Your OH sounds very inconsiderate at times. 

Can you get a few days off work? Maybe throw a sickie? I'm not one to do that often but I think you need some rest.


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## Briss

Jazzbird, I know I really need a holiday, I look terrible. unfortunately there is a lot of responsibility on me which I cant shift on anyone. they do not give a break between the deals, just a nightmare.


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## Jazzbird

Massage? Or a trip to spa with a relaxing friend?


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## Jazzbird

Or download Glenn Harrolds complete relaxation on iTunes. That really takes me down a gear or two and in 30 mins!


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## Jazzbird

Do you work in investment banking Briss? Mergers and acquisitions or something? Can you get a new job? I know it seems drastic but there are some jobs that will just kill you. I had a few friends who worked in trading and wound up with stomach ulcers in their late 20s. It's just not worth it.


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## Briss

Jazzbird, it&#8217;s worse I am in capital markets but on the legal side on things. Again left the office well after midnight last night, the only positive is that I did not have any energy to pick up a fight with DH cos he was really drank, again!!! I am thinking of putting IVF off for a month and taking a week off. I just do not think he has any good sperm left after drinking this much. I have a massage session booked for Thursday! cant wait.

I used to look very young for my age but in the last 6 years working in the City I aged a lot. on the other hand when I did not work I went into depression, it's really hard to find a balance. delegating is the key but juniors are leaving the firm, they are a whole different generation who are brought up to enjoy life


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## Jazzbird

Ah Briss I totally understand your predicament. I don't work in capital markets but I work in accounting and risk in the city. I'm probably sat in an office near you! I am now a contractor - so I work 9 months have 3 off. But I struggled to find work this time round. I'm either off stressing about finding a job or commuting crazy hours. It is hard to get the balance right. 

But there are so many companies who have a better work life balance and I'm sure your skills are transferable. 

Those hours are crazy. I think you should start looking for a new direction. It's just too stressful to conceive working like that. I make it clear in my interviews that I won't be a late worker by default now. I've paid my dues in my 20s and value my health too much. It's how I found acupuncture after burning out when I was 29. 

Your OH needs a good slap. Perhaps he can't deal with his SA issues. It must be a heavy burden feeling responsible. Not making excuses for him but always good to give people the benefit of the doubt. 

I think time off is what you need. Have you told your boss about ivf or anything? Not sure if its the right environment to discuss but sometimes they may be more considerate if they knew.,

Failing that - leave. It's just not worth it. 

Hugs from a dingy grey office around the corner!


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## Briss

starting a new job scares me a lot, it's going to be more stressful trying to "prove" yourself in the new place than what I am dealing with now and in capital markets there is no life/work balance so it's going to be the same everywhere I go. I love my new office, worked really hard to get it (I know it sounds pathetic but I spend most of my hours in here so it's important to feel comfortable). I meet my friends from time to time who are far less successful in their careers and struggle to get jobs, I can see that it's also very stressful constantly thinking where to get money to pay your bills (although how I wish we could just get a man who pays for everything and never reproaches you, sorry feminists). At least I have comfort in thinking that I have enough to do as many IVFs as it is going to take and can also provide for my child in the future. I know it's a vicious circle cos may be the reason I was not able to get pregnant yet is exactly my stressful job (although deep down I doubt it, there is no getting away from low sperm count, and just one is not enough you need to have at least 40-60 million for one sperm to get through, the rest is just a miracle or a chance). 

sorry for being so negative, it's in my nature coupled with having really traumatic last few years. the only good news I get these days is that the awful diagnosis was not correct&#8230; I really need something positive in life I just do not see anything around I could feel good about. I lost some weight, that was great but it's not something that just happened to me, I made it happen myself. Sometimes it's just nice when good things happen to you without you having to struggle or fight really hard to get it.


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## Jazzbird

You're not being negative - you're going through a really tough time. When everywhere you look there is stress - work, home, relationship ... Ivf - there is no refuge and no downtime. 

I guess if you can't move jobs then you must book time off often. I think if you always have one or two 3 day weekends per month then you can crash on this day and pamper yourself. I think you should definitely get the hypnosis download and listen to it once a day. I would also invest in a massage or spa membership for weekends. 

I understand that sperm is the main issue. Can you book a weekend away with oh? Try and get some space together and discuss his drinking antics? I'm sure you've probably done this a thousand times over. Maybe not discuss the drinking directly but ask him how he's feeling - why does he keep doing it. It seems like he's trying to sabotage your chances. Have you told him it really hurts you when he goes out drinking?


----------



## Briss

DH and I are going in circles discussing his drinking, apparently it's all my fault cos I from time to time make scenes and threaten with divorce etc beer takes him to a better place&#8230; I do not believe this cos everyone who drinks always finds a perfect excuse why he should carry on doing just that. he choses drinking cos it's easier than facing your problems and dealing with them. I am also sure he likes the taste and the fact that it helps him socially. I understand it but it's just not good enough reason to ruin my life.


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## Jazzbird

I agree Briss - it's a cop out. Does he have a drinking problem? Would he go for counselling? Perhaps you could see one specialising in infertility


----------



## Breaking Dawn

I also work for a financial institution...and spent years in the stressful environment that is capital markets. 

I finally decided to move out bc I'm not in my 20s I've paid my dues.

My new job is much more flexible and less stressful.


----------



## Briss

I tell myself that I will leave as soon as I get at least 2 children and my maternity (which is a lot and can easily cover 4-5 full on IVFs, maybe even more &#8211; really hard to just give it up). when I feel that I have to start something new and look for a job and prepare for job interview etc &#8211; I just feel that's not something I can take on right now, I have no energy to start something new. just quitting your job for nothing is not very practical. I do not always work around the clock, sometimes I have days when I just hide behind my desk and do my TTC related research all day long :)

breaking dawn, sorry if I asked you before, what do you do now? did you change your career?


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## Blythe

Briss - hope you enjoy your massage today :)

Whats happening with your cycle?...it certainly looks very healthy and if you are not pregnant this time your cycles look much healthier and ready for IVF.


I had a very clear dream last night that i took a pregnancy test and saw those two lines...very strong lines too. ive been sleeping so fitfully recently....its exhausting.

But guess what......i have just completed a 3 day juice fast...well 2 x juices and 1 x smoothie so sort of cheating [also wolfed down 2 boiled eggs yesterday like a crazed woman!!] but i feel clearer but NOT amazing! WTF....i was of course expecting enlightenment...feel a little cheated. I will try and keep the food intake down though and avoid any coffee. 

i just received an email from my fertility yoga teacher...she says she has facilitated the pregnancies of other woman in my age bracket....its so difficult to juggle anything regular as my DH got a new job [at last!] and my hours are changing slightly but i will try to go again. She said don't give up. i guess i needed that email today because that is exactly what i feel like doing.


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## Briss

Blythe, your temps looks great, it's like back to normal compared to last cycle. what a nice dream! so hope it's good news for you finally! OMG, a 3 day juice fast!!! you are an inspiration!! well done! I am sure even if you do not notice dramatic changes, your body does. you are so ready for pregnancy! Congratulation to your DH on getting a new job! that's wonderful news! I was wondering about his situation, really pleased it worked out in the end. Your fertility yoga teacher sounds brill! 

afm, going through difficult time with DH, he drinks every day! I am afraid to do IVF/ICSI with his damaged sperm. says it's all me I made his life impossible I am always unhappy mainly cos of my job and I take it out on him, he cant stand the scenes anymore and wants to go away from me for a few months, he stopped coming home in the evening cos he cant stand our flat everything reminds him of our arguments &#8230; maybe it's for the best but then I told him I am not waiting for him and will start looking into donor sperm, I guess he does not want this so that's the reason why he is not leaving so we are just locked in this constant state of despair with no way out. 

I think my chart looks good, really pleased that I ovulated later, I did not bother with vitamins after O, feel like AF may show up today but hoping it will wait until tomorrow. Am definitely doing EPO again next cycle unless it's IVF cycle in which case would need to check with FS (EPO does seem very powerful but lack of EWCM is troubling), I've been drinking wheatgrass shots most days and did juicing 3-4 times a week. Also before O I drank Nettle tea/Raspberry Leaf/Red Clover Blossom tea every day + the usual Grapefruit juice. I still need to shorten my AF back to 6 days to feel completely normal.

re weight, it's coming back!!! obviously I am not surprised cos I am back to eating rice/pasta type of food at least every other day but I am stressed at work + lack of sleep makes me so hungry, I have 2 proper meals a day! (usually I do not need to eat more than once, the rest are just veg/fruit/yogurt type of snacks). 

I have a picture of lots and lots of EWCM in my head and cannot remember whether this was something I saw yesterday or whether that was a dream&#8230; I remember I had a thought going through my mind why at this time in my cycle I am getting so much EWCM? I am so exhausted from work and arguments with DH I find it difficult to distinguish reality from my dreams.

A partner I work with came today (he is based abroad) to London and sits in my office&#8230; Will be so hard to justify why I leave office at 5.30 &#8230;. I cant just tell him I have massage booked, he wont understand &#8230;I was hoping I could sneak out unnoticed


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## Blythe

i found myself earlier putting some chocolate flapjacks i had in my cupboard in the bin and putting washing up liquid on top of them [well not before eating 3 of them first!]. i feel determined to have a mostly plant based diet and keep meat to a minimum and just try and ensure i still have adequate protein through pulses etc etc

tbh the reason i succeeded is because I'm off work for two weeks and feel relaxed and relatively focused. im not sure how i will fare once back in the office.

im sorry to hear things are not too good at home. You both need to find a way to break this cycle. it's going nowhere good. Your husband loves you loads but is just reacting against what i suspect he thinks is pressure from you. I'm sure nothing would make him happier than to get you pregnant...i don't know who mens brains work but I'm sure there is lots of pride at play here...male pride is scary!

i wonder could you just take yourselves off for a saturday and get on a train and go somewhere that interests both of you. Get away from the flat, get away from London and everything familiar. Even small things like this massage you are going for are all essential.

I have been researching buying femara [letrozole] online from a canadian pharmacy but see they wont send directly to the UK :( but they do to everywhere else. i do have a friend that lives in Canada but haven't spoke to her forever so cannot really contact her and ask her to import drugs for me. there are other on-line pharmacies that will ship to the UK but they are based in china and I'm not sure about the quality of the product nor them getting shipped at all. i don't know where i would be able to get a prescription for this stuff in the UK...certainly wont be NHS. I became interested in this stuff once i saw girls that had no luck with clomid succeeded with this. 

it was so good that my DH got this job...its a bit more cash and it has prospects...for me this means IVF is now an option again.

its weird because what you said about being able to distinguish dreams from reality is something that has been going through my mind these last couple of days. 

It certainly looks like EPO has done a great job with this cycle :)


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## gingmg

Met with the RE yesterday and came up with a game plan. Two more IUIs (but with injectables instead of clomid) then IVF. I feel good about this plan. Hopefully, of coarse, I'm pregnant already and don't need the two more cycles or IVF, but only time will tell. My aunt was over yesterday and told my OH she had a gut feeling I was going to have twins, my mom said she had the same feeling. We shall see.


----------



## gingmg

Briss- I'm sorry you have been having problems with DH. Would he ever agree to counseling either with you or by himself? My OH has had some drinking issues and I know its not easy. It obviously doesn't come into play with fertility, but emotionally its very hard. She started seeing a therapist last year and its been much better, since she has been able to get to the root of it all, and doesn't need the outlet. 

Blythe- great news about DHs new job!


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## gingmg

Blythe- be careful ordering offline. I wonder when you say you saw girls have no luck with clomid get pregnant with femera, most likely I would guess they didn't O with clomid, or progesterone levels were still low indicating a weak O versus just not getting pregnant? Are these girls with PCOS? Maybe its ok to order offline, but it makes me nervous and how do you REAllY know you are getting what you asked for? Please be careful.


----------



## Briss

gingmg, good luck I hope you wont need IVF, IUI is a more natural option although the success rates are very low 

Blythe, I do not know anything about femera but I agree with gingmg, better to be careful and maybe discuss it with FS. well done on the chocolate flapjacks front! so proud of you. coffee and choc are my daily friends these days, I am cutting on all other sugar related foods though.

I think you are right, he does want to make me pregnant but drinking beer every day is hardly the right way to go about it. is it the male pride thing?? I do not get it. (although you might be right cos I've been reproaching DH for lack of sex in our life and last few days he is just on fire, obviously last few days before AF are the worst possible time for me but I cant really say no, it will hurt his feeling more than anything) I asked DH if he wants to go away for a few days but he said yes but without me&#8230;. nice 

I've been filing in various consent forms from CREATE, what a depressing thing to do!! apparently Dh needs to consent to put his name on the register as a father if he is not around (why does it have to be so dark!) and in this case they register the child as being result of the treatment! what!!! why? I am not sure I want such stigma for my child. I am not sure I want anyone to know he was not conceived naturally. when he is old enough I will tell him and it's up to him to decide what to do with this information. Decided not to sign any consent for disclosure forms to protect my child from being identified as an IVF child in the future. we know nothing about IVF children and if in some 50-100 years it turns out that they are indeed different from naturally conceived children they may be discriminated against or something. I do not want that for my child! I am fuming! 

have been trying to get an appointment at create to start the cycle for a week now, called them 4-5 times today, left voicemail, sent emails, left massages &#8230; no response. My AF is almost here I really need to start doing something like bloods etc. I guess once we do CD3 bloods and scan it will become clear whether we can proceed this cycle, if my oestrogen is high or I have a new cyst they may suggest postponing it. I am still not sure where my DH on this, I told him I will only proceed with IVF and his sperm if he immediately stops any beer but tbh I am not sure how helpful it is, not much will change in 10-12 days


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## Blythe

gingmg said:


> Blythe- be careful ordering offline. I wonder when you say you saw girls have no luck with clomid get pregnant with femera, most likely I would guess they didn't O with clomid, or progesterone levels were still low indicating a weak O versus just not getting pregnant? Are these girls with PCOS? Maybe its ok to order offline, but it makes me nervous and how do you REAllY know you are getting what you asked for? Please be careful.

I like your aunts gut feeling...wouldn't that be incredible. Thanks for advice.....I was looking at the various forums for weightlifter who order stuff online all the time and it seems the quality is variable and there's loads of scams out there too. The other sucess stories I had seen were of ladies that do ovulate but they also had trigger shots too. 

I'm not due to see my FS until December and they have already said they cannot do anything else for me so I guess that what drive me too start looking at what else I can swallow:wacko:


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## Blythe

Briss said:


> gingmg, good luck I hope you wont need IVF, IUI is a more natural option although the success rates are very low
> 
> Blythe, I do not know anything about femera but I agree with gingmg, better to be careful and maybe discuss it with FS. well done on the chocolate flapjacks front! so proud of you. coffee and choc are my daily friends these days, I am cutting on all other sugar related foods though.
> 
> I think you are right, he does want to make me pregnant but drinking beer every day is hardly the right way to go about it. is it the male pride thing?? I do not get it. (although you might be right cos I've been reproaching DH for lack of sex in our life and last few days he is just on fire, obviously last few days before AF are the worst possible time for me but I cant really say no, it will hurt his feeling more than anything) I asked DH if he wants to go away for a few days but he said yes but without me. nice
> 
> I've been filing in various consent forms from CREATE, what a depressing thing to do!! apparently Dh needs to consent to put his name on the register as a father if he is not around (why does it have to be so dark!) and in this case they register the child as being result of the treatment! what!!! why? I am not sure I want such stigma for my child. I am not sure I want anyone to know he was not conceived naturally. when he is old enough I will tell him and it's up to him to decide what to do with this information. Decided not to sign any consent for disclosure forms to protect my child from being identified as an IVF child in the future. we know nothing about IVF children and if in some 50-100 years it turns out that they are indeed different from naturally conceived children they may be discriminated against or something. I do not want that for my child! I am fuming!
> 
> have been trying to get an appointment at create to start the cycle for a week now, called them 4-5 times today, left voicemail, sent emails, left massages  no response. My AF is almost here I really need to start doing something like bloods etc. I guess once we do CD3 bloods and scan it will become clear whether we can proceed this cycle, if my oestrogen is high or I have a new cyst they may suggest postponing it. I am still not sure where my DH on this, I told him I will only proceed with IVF and his sperm if he immediately stops any beer but tbh I am not sure how helpful it is, not much will change in 10-12 days


I'm not impressed with the service you are getting from create! This is not good enough. A huge part of keeping stress levels down is knowing what is going on...good communication is key. I hope once you are committed to the process they won't be so difficult to get hold of. I will need to know all as I'm still undecided between create and kings. 

I thought it took about 3 months for sperm to mature (a bit like our eggs) so those sperm he has now could have been those that started life during his dry spell so good too go.


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## Briss

Had my massage/reflexology today but tbh not impressed, it was relaxing but not quite. it was cold in the room and her hands were cold, by the end i was simply freezing and that's not the right environment for relaxation. also started getting a bit of a headache - my usual AF sign and also liver stagnation I think. 

Blythe, I am also not impressed, I've been trying to get an appointment or at least smb to talk to at cteate for at least a week now. I am also unhappy that they made me worried and did not recognises that it was just a simple cyst. but then everyone complains about their poor administration but people say the quality of medical service is very good. let's hope so, i am trusting my ovaries in their care, the most precious organ i have :)


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## Juniperjules

Briss, how far are you from the clinic? Could you just go in there and face to face get some answers. I think that's what I'd be doing now. Is just ridiculous that they are now stressing you out due to their lack of communication- for gods sake this situation is hard enough without dealing with a FERTILITY clinic that doesn't seem to 'get it'.

Regarding your DH. This is not going to be the politically correct answer. But I know the place u are coming from so ill give my honest response. If I was you I was just go full steam ahead with the IVF (once the bloody clinic speaks to you!).. I think that all the emotion, stress, drama, anxiety, enormity, etc etc etc of TTC is driving a huge wedge between u and ur DH- and it is just getting bigger and bigger with every month that passes..For many and varied reasons. 

Your DH likes a drink.. Too much yes. But he's not the first man (or woman) to like a drink far too much. If you weren't ttc it probably wouldn't be such an issue.. Although it possibly would still be somewhat of an issue, it wouldn't be having such an impact on you. And yeh I'd say there's a fairly good chance that he feels like crap that his sperm is affected...NO man wants to be told or to know, that his sperm isn't working the way it should- it's a HUGE blow to their masculinity. My OH always told me that if WE needed IVF he would have no issue with it. When his best friend and wife were doing IVF and were keeping it a secret, my OH said to me "why? What for? What's the big deal?". And yes so far he's ok with us doing IVF...BUT when we had our counselling session for IVF, he told the psychologist that he would NOT be telling his friends!! I was seriously shocked! I was sitting their like an idiot saying "huh? What the?". And when the psychologist questioned him as to why, he said bcos they would be saying "why wots wrong with you? Why can't you just get her pregnant the old fashioned way?". And THAT would be embarrassing. And he doesn't even have any sperm issues!!! But it's the idea of it I guess. 

There is likely soooooo many things going on in your DH's head that he will never ever tell you. He is probably miserable himself right now just like you are. And so he is drinking. It's like an act of defiance almost. BUT, he does not want you to have a child with a donor. Which means its all still means something to him. Even if his actions don't show it. He just sounds like he has also just had enough. And i hope u don't mind me saying this, bcos I'm speaking from my own behaviours here too... But you probably ARE a nightmare to live with at the moment (with very good reason). So he is just reverting to behaviours that he has always resorted to...he's doing something that makes him feel good in the moment, and he'll deal with the consequences later. 

So, if I were you, I would just go full steam ahead into IVF. You need something to change, for both of your sakes. Blythe is right, if you can do IVF ASAP, then his sperm will still be from 3 months ago and might not be a damaged as you are thinking. I know from my own experience that sometimes you just have to say bugger it and do something. If you do IVF and actually get pregnant it would most likely change absolutely everything. You will be ecstatic, and you will relax (somewhat-pregnancy will have its own anxieties), but it will be anxiety that you and DH will share together... He will be part of it at least. At the moment this is I think your best option. I know you've threatened him with donor sperm, but I also know thats not what you want. 

Do send him off for a weekend or something on his own or with a friend? I know it's the last thing you probably want to do, but try doing something that will surprise him. Bite your tongue and tell him you know this is all difficult. And that its affecting him as well. Tell him that he should have a few days away- Not to get away from you, but just to get some space and room to breathe. And while he is away get as much sorted as you can for IVF. And just get it done. I really think its the only thing that will change things right now for you both. And trust me I get it. Is a pressure cooker situation. 

To love someone but also kind of hate them at the same time is not a good way to live. I know how that feels.


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## Breaking Dawn

Briss said:


> I tell myself that I will leave as soon as I get at least 2 children and my maternity (which is a lot and can easily cover 4-5 full on IVFs, maybe even more  really hard to just give it up). when I feel that I have to start something new and look for a job and prepare for job interview etc  I just feel that's not something I can take on right now, I have no energy to start something new. just quitting your job for nothing is not very practical. I do not always work around the clock, sometimes I have days when I just hide behind my desk and do my TTC related research all day long :)
> 
> breaking dawn, sorry if I asked you before, what do you do now? did you change your career?

It's still in financial institution the same one actually but not in the capital markets group ...


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## gingmg

Juniper- you have a great way with words.


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## Breaking Dawn

Blythe...I have taken both clomid and femera.

Clomid is a stronger drug...and meant for fertiltiy use. While femera is used for cancer treatment (breast cancer I think) but a "side effect" is that it works like clomid. Just not as strong.

If you hear women have better success with femera ...it could be bc clomid has a major negative side effect....it causes the uterine lining to thin...so woe,n have to take estrace with it OR they switch to femera and then while on femera get a bfp.

So I don't think femera is better...it's just different.

I used clomid for 3 months....3rd month my lining had thinned...I then stopped using it.


----------



## Breaking Dawn

gingmg said:


> Met with the RE yesterday and came up with a game plan. Two more IUIs (but with injectables instead of clomid) then IVF. I feel good about this plan. Hopefully, of coarse, I'm pregnant already and don't need the two more cycles or IVF, but only time will tell. My aunt was over yesterday and told my OH she had a gut feeling I was going to have twins, my mom said she had the same feeling. We shall see.

I hope you get your bfp!!!!

KMFX!!


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## Juniperjules

Girls, wot is raspberry leaf good for?? Is it worth taking for any particular benefits??


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## Blythe

gingmg said:


> Juniper- you have a great way with words.

Agree


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## Jazzbird

Hey gals so my sperm meets egg plan is not going so well. We started bd on cd 12 because I ovulate late. I had ewcm on cd12 then we bd cd 14 - then I got +opk yesterday (cd15) We were sooooo tired - hardly anything came out! We just collapsed laughing. Think I've worn him out right before my fertile days.

I will leave him alone tonight and pounce tmrw morning. 

Not sure I will do this again it's madness!


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## Blythe

That is the problem we have had with sex before +opk. By the third bd he has nothing left to give (so he says).


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## Briss

Juniper, I think I am beginning to understand where your DH is coming from, may be we should also keep IVF a secret. everyone seems to be so open about it so I never questioned it but now to think of it, there will be questions and this is such a private matter. and also thank you very much for being so understanding!! it does help to hear what you said like somebody speaking on my DH's behalf and unlike him you can actually explain what the hell is going on. Makes me feel a bit better and hate him less&#8230; raspberry leaf is good for strengthening uterine walls and a few other things all TTC related but some say it can cause uterine contractions so not recommended in tww 

AF got me today but I am not crying, the main reason is that I am hoping we are doing IVF!!! Finally I managed to speak to somebody at create, apparently I am already on the list for natural modified, scan on Cd 5-6! no CD3 bloods required for natural modified. 

I started taking EPO again but may have to stop, a doc is supposed to call me today to discuss the plan so I will ask about EPO. I developed such faith in EPO. 

My headache is still there but I think as soon as AF started to make her appearance it's getting better, hard to concentrate at work though, am so stressed and busy but obviously prefer to write on B&B than do my work&#8230;I am just so excited about IVF. am definitely taking time off for EC and ET, I do not care if the deal closing will be scheduled on that day.

I am actually very pleased with my previous cycle, 27 days! O on CD13, temps were good, not sure what to expect from this cycle as I will be taking meds so I guess they will change my cycle.


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## Blythe

Briss said:


> Juniper, I think I am beginning to understand where your DH is coming from, may be we should also keep IVF a secret. everyone seems to be so open about it so I never questioned it but now to think of it, there will be questions and this is such a private matter. and also thank you very much for being so understanding!! it does help to hear what you said like somebody speaking on my DH's behalf and unlike him you can actually explain what the hell is going on. Makes me feel a bit better and hate him less raspberry leaf is good for strengthening uterine walls and a few other things all TTC related but some say it can cause uterine contractions so not recommended in tww
> 
> AF got me today but I am not crying, the main reason is that I am hoping we are doing IVF!!! Finally I managed to speak to somebody at create, apparently I am already on the list for natural modified, scan on Cd 5-6! no CD3 bloods required for natural modified.
> 
> I started taking EPO again but may have to stop, a doc is supposed to call me today to discuss the plan so I will ask about EPO. I developed such faith in EPO.
> 
> My headache is still there but I think as soon as AF started to make her appearance it's getting better, hard to concentrate at work though, am so stressed and busy but obviously prefer to write on B&B than do my workI am just so excited about IVF. am definitely taking time off for EC and ET, I do not care if the deal closing will be scheduled on that day.
> 
> I am actually very pleased with my previous cycle, 27 days! O on CD13, temps were good, not sure what to expect from this cycle as I will be taking meds so I guess they will change my cycle.

Im sorry about AF. So happy to hear you got to speak to someone at Create....this is indeed very exciting. 

i have been wondering about ivf and what to tell my boss should i decide to go ahead in the new year or perhaps later this year. i guess it depends on how much time i would need off work....also as its not an essential medical procedure i wonder if i would have to take it as leave.

Do they put you under for EC? if so, I wonder if i would be ok to go back to work the next day? I don't have too much leave left to play with.

I guess a fully medicated cycle requires more monitoring. Do you have any idea of what meds you may be taking or will they decide when they scan you on CD 5-6.


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## Blythe

Breaking Dawn said:


> Blythe...I have taken both clomid and femera.
> 
> Clomid is a stronger drug...and meant for fertiltiy use. While femera is used for cancer treatment (breast cancer I think) but a "side effect" is that it works like clomid. Just not as strong.
> 
> If you hear women have better success with femera ...it could be bc clomid has a major negative side effect....it causes the uterine lining to thin...so woe,n have to take estrace with it OR they switch to femera and then while on femera get a bfp.
> 
> So I don't think femera is better...it's just different.
> 
> I used clomid for 3 months....3rd month my lining had thinned...I then stopped using it.


Many thanks :flower:

this is my third and final month on clomid...i have had much much lighter periods whilst taking it. other than that no big side effects which was a relief...other than mild headaches.

i was so very strict with all my supplements for so over 2 years and now im sort of over it....im not even taking the COQ10. i think what i am going to do is just eat and drink very very well ensuring i cut all the crap out. I wonder if that will do the trick :wacko:


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## Briss

Blythe, I am not going to make it public or say anything at work, I will take my leave (been so busy that I have most of my leave from this year and 2 weeks from previous year to play with), or sick leave or just "work from home". Zita West says (in her book) that it makes a difference if you take a few days off for EC/ET. also I guess it depends on the job, I just need to be away from all the stress and drama associated with my deals. 

I will be sedated for EC, not sure what this means but I hope my DH will be with me cos travelling back from Wimbledon is going to be a challenge. 

Meds: (most likely)

-menopur 150 IU for 4-5 days
-Cetrotide 0.25 mg injection 3-4 days
-Ovitrelle 250 micrograms for 1 day

all very scary meds with terrible side effects, also not recommended for anyone with ovarian cysts so I have no idea why I will be taking them and what mess I may end up in.

I am taking EPO, Vit E and coq10 but will stop at egg collection. I carry on with wheatgrass shots, veg juice and grapefruit juice. I generally eat very little crap (except for choc and cakes)


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## Blythe

Briss said:


> Blythe, I am not going to make it public or say anything at work, I will take my leave (been so busy that I have most of my leave from this year and 2 weeks from previous year to play with), or sick leave or just "work from home". Zita West says (in her book) that it makes a difference if you take a few days off for EC/ET. also I guess it depends on the job, I just need to be away from all the stress and drama associated with my deals.
> 
> I will be sedated for EC, not sure what this means but I hope my DH will be with me cos travelling back from Wimbledon is going to be a challenge.
> 
> Meds: (most likely)
> 
> -menopur 150 IU for 4-5 days
> -Cetrotide 0.25 mg injection 3-4 days
> -Ovitrelle 250 micrograms for 1 day
> 
> all very scary meds with terrible side effects, also not recommended for anyone with ovarian cysts so I have no idea why I will be taking them and what mess I may end up in.
> 
> I am taking EPO, Vit E and coq10 but will stop at egg collection. I carry on with wheatgrass shots, veg juice and grapefruit juice. I generally eat very little crap (except for choc and cakes)

Are these the standard meds for a modified natural cycle. i only wonder as that is what she recommended for me too.

sorry for the questions...one final one. Im guessing there was not an option for you to do all your appts at the HS branch?


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## Juniperjules

Ok girls... Get stuck in to some avocados! 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/...es-chance-success-couples-undergoing-IVF.html

I LOVE avocados! So very happy to eat lots of them! : ) 

I think my FS recommends the day of egg pick up & the following day off work as a minimum. I'm still undecided as to whether ill tell work. But i most likely will. My 2 unit managers are great, so maybe when I'm just about to start ill mention it to one of them- just incase I end up a hormonal mess & need to call in sick on short notice too.. I don't want to look unreliable. 

Briss, ur welcome ; ) am very pleased to hear u say ur feeling excited about IVF!.. Like I said.. Full steam ahead baby! 
I thought ur IVF was going to be a natural cycle? I didn't realise u had to take any drugs at all? 

Blythe, i completely get that uve had enough of all the supps, but just FYI, my FS who has a world class reputation told me at my last appt to make sure I was taking 4 things leading into my IVF: CoQ10 300mg, vitamin E 1000iu (for lining), pre-natal Vit, and then gave me a script for melatonin. I have sooooo much faith in her from wot I'm reading on the Internet, from the girls who are seeing her in forums. She really seems to know her stuff. She recently was in the news for getting a woman pregnant after cancer from implanting ovarian tissue that was frozen 6 years ago prior to cancer treatment. Maybe consider just taking a few important things??? 

Jazzbird... We tried the SMEP one month.. Epic fail! It's just too much. Well done for giving it a go though!


----------



## Briss

Blythe, I guess this is their standard meds for modified cycle. doses might be different for everyone. I have a print out which is probably same as yours

I think we can do some appts at the HS branch, like the scans etc but EC/ET only in Wimbledon

Juniper, I also LOVE avocados! I add them to my daily green salad cos they alkaline as well and make every salad filling. I also add some virgin olive oil and squeeze a bit of lemon juice in it, delicious! I am going to be stuffing myself with avocadoes starting from today. my work actually gives a day off for EC/ET but I am not going to use it, if they found out we TTC this will affect my career big time, I will immediately be taken off most prestigious deals . 

my cycle is called natural modified, there are meds and I suspect they are the same as for conventional IVf but the doses are much lower and duration of time you have to be on them is shorter, I think. we are not trying to get me develop 20 follicles, just 2: the naturally selected follicle and maybe the runner up


----------



## Blythe

Juniperjules said:


> Ok girls... Get stuck in to some avocados!
> 
> https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/...es-chance-success-couples-undergoing-IVF.html
> 
> I LOVE avocados! So very happy to eat lots of them! : )
> 
> I think my FS recommends the day of egg pick up & the following day off work as a minimum. I'm still undecided as to whether ill tell work. But i most likely will. My 2 unit managers are great, so maybe when I'm just about to start ill mention it to one of them- just incase I end up a hormonal mess & need to call in sick on short notice too.. I don't want to look unreliable.
> 
> Briss, ur welcome ; ) am very pleased to hear u say ur feeling excited about IVF!.. Like I said.. Full steam ahead baby!
> I thought ur IVF was going to be a natural cycle? I didn't realise u had to take any drugs at all?
> 
> Blythe, i completely get that uve had enough of all the supps, but just FYI, my FS who has a world class reputation told me at my last appt to make sure I was taking 4 things leading into my IVF: CoQ10 300mg, vitamin E 1000iu (for lining), pre-natal Vit, and then gave me a script for melatonin. I have sooooo much faith in her from wot I'm reading on the Internet, from the girls who are seeing her in forums. She really seems to know her stuff. She recently was in the news for getting a woman pregnant after cancer from implanting ovarian tissue that was frozen 6 years ago prior to cancer treatment. Maybe consider just taking a few important things???
> 
> Jazzbird... We tried the SMEP one month.. Epic fail! It's just too much. Well done for giving it a go though!

I have just spent £100 on COQ10 and vit e.....

I have not taken Vit e whilst TTC so thanks for the tip :flower:


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## Briss

Blythe, I usually take Vit E (800 IU) together with coq10 cos it helps absorption (unless you take more advanced form of coq10, ubiqunol), but only before O cos there was some research linking it to birth defects


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## Blythe

i went for a facial earlier....i ended up having a facial peel. i have never had anything like that before and i look quite good. Apparently though my skin will start shedding over the next few days which should be interesting.

i started talking to the lady who was doing the treatment and mentioned i had been ttc for a long time [as you do] and she said she would like another child. she is 40 next year but single so says she has to find someone to have a child with first. she was on match.com and dating....she told me she went on one date with a guy who insisted he was english but was in fact russian [she is polish] and then said he like to dominate women and expects A sex from his partners [not really something you bring up on a first date surely] and said he has left women bruised.....seriously is this the calibre of men out there!! I think she should skip men and go straight for the sperm bank.


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## Briss

Blythe, i've been doing a bit of research re donor sperm and actually it's not the sperm bank one goes to but a sperm donor! I am so silly, I assumed you get frozen sperm by post or something for at home insemination ... I still have a lot to learn about this (but hopefully wont have to), basically there are a few online places where you match up with a donor and he gives you fresh stuff for at home insemination. I mean how easy it is for men to make money!! it's like this world was made for men. 

I've heard match.com is not a great place to meet a long term partner it's more of a pick-up place really. so I am not surprised that guy was so up front about his bedroom activities. having said that I am really bad at dating, always was. I have no idea where people meet. I tried night clubs but it's just hopeless. work - really awkward. I met a few people online: one turned out to be 20 years older than his picture and the other never called back... you can see I do not have huge experience, I've been in relationships most of my life since I was 20.

I had a facial peel a few years back and actually quite regret doing it (as i do with most things), it was supposed to help with acne but it did not instead it made my skin less firm and more prone to wrinkles. I do not understand how peeling can make you look younger, my experience was the complete opposite. it did not help with acne either. I looked quite scary for a few days while the skin was coming off. I think it was peel with some fruit acid, basically like burning my skin. I supposed what you had is not a strong peel? Mine was hurting when she did it. 

no one called from Create!! again! I called the administrator on her mobile but it went straight to voicemail, left her a text but no response whatsoever. I am still in the dark, am starting my IVf or not?


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## Juniperjules

Blythe, glad u got the CoQ10 & Vit E! 
Re the online dating. Have never done it but a close friend did. Her current partner of 7 years she met online.. But holy moly did she come across some absolute plonkers b4 him.. A hot looking young guy who eventually asked if he could have sex with her 3 little fluffy white dogs, AND alluded to having carnal thoughts about his own MOTHER!! Eeeeewwww!! And another guy who was nice, seemed keen.. Then suddenly went totally cold out of the blue & turned VERY nasty.. Then proceeded to tell her he 'might' have STD's & she should get tested. And I've gotta say I was shocked by how vile & nasty he became towards her.. If I'd had a gun& knew where he lived... 

So def no online dating for me if I'm ever single! : ) 

As far as donors Briss, you CAN still use donors from a sperm bank' who u never see or contact. But it does cost money. And the men do get paid something by the bank itself. I've been on a thread or 2 with girls who have done this. And then of course there is the other option of using sperm from a male who has advertised his 'goods' as available, but it's illegal for them to charge as far as I'm aware. It actually kind of amazes me that there really are some generous, good, decent men who do this- & they aren't weirdos or dodgy & expect nothing back. Then there are the weirdos who advertise themselves & once contacted only want to do 'NI' .... NATURAL insemination!! Which means they'll give u some sperm but they wanna have sex with you to give it!! Very grosse to me, but I've read a few girls comments saying they were ok with doing it. 

Regarding peels/ facials etc.. I'm a bit paranoid about anything to do with my face. I live in Aust but with Scottish skin so I stay out of the sun, always wear a moisturiser with at least 20+ sun protection (even in winter bcos UV doesn't need sun to ruin ur skin!), & my sister is a dermatology nurse so I run everything past her before buying/ using it. She just has to hear wot the ingredients are & she'll say whether it's useful/ helpful/ damaging/ or a load of crap! She's very handy : ) at the moment I'm 38 but people think I'm in my late 20's, even people Ive worked with for 2 years & who I've told before what my age is forget that I'm actually 38).. so for now I'm good with that. But at some point (after babies), perhaps once I'm into my 40's I will look at some minor Botox, just around my eyes probably. Never used to think I would, but Botox is used every day as a muscle relaxant for other real medical conditions so I'm not scared of it. Infact my sister has had it once (done at her work) & it was nice, very natural, not overdone. That was maybe 2 years ago now & she's just thinking about a refresher. So ill see.. I'd NEVER do anything more invasive, but a touch of Botox in a few years time?? Possibly.


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## Jazzbird

I tried online dating a few times when I lived in USA and London. I just found it a very time consuming way to meet someone. I'd spend ages emailing then we'd finally arrange to meet and there would just be something about him I'd not like that emails couldn't translate. 

I did know of someone at a company I used to work (although I didn't know her) met this guy online for a few dates ... Seemed ok then on the 3rd he murdered her. Scary. I guess you trust after a few dates. 

I'm feeling a bit down because I think even after our bonking frenzy I missed my peak time. We bd on cd12, then had ewcm on cd13, bd again on cd14, got peak on cd 15 - tried to bd but not much came out. Ovulated yesterday cd 16 but oh too tired now. 

I can't believe I screwed up the timing so badly this month. What a ninny.


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## Briss

Juniper, I think I will be OK with "natural" insemination :) but i will have worries whether the guy is healthy, how would I know?

It's official, we are starting IVF!!! the first scan is booked for wednesday. it was so hard to get to speak to anybody, no body called me yesterday again, but their administrator is really good she contacted me today (I sent her a desperate sms last night) and gave me their emergency number, still i called this number a couple of times today before I got the information. the last time I called it was right the time when they were discussing my case so I am in. 

We also had a very lengthy discussion with Dh today, most of the day really, it was so hard but in the end we agreed that we are going to do 3 IVFs at create (DH will pay!) but he may rent a flat for himself and stay there for some time (but will be available whenever i need his "services") because he needs time away from me and from all the drama. I gave in cos I think it's better than doing it alone with donor sperm. also he agreed (finally and I hope this time he means it!) to see a urologist! I know it seems like a bit late cos we are doing IVF but it may not be successful and who knows it might be that he does have some obstruction inside or something that can be fixed and count improved. 

IVF made me hopeful again, it's CD2 and I have not been crying and hysterical as usual. although we did share a few beers today with DH to "seal the deal" but DH promised to cut it down. basically all is good again and I am very hopeful. IVF may also give us some answers why we are unable to conceive. 

We decided not tell anyone that we are doing IVF (just my mom), not even family. most of my relations wont understand it and will be later looking at my child trying to figure out in what way he is different. it's just better to keep them out of it completely. I am definitely taking some time off as soon as I know what the EC/ET dates. loading myself with virgin olive oil and avocados (I did have two chocolate eclairs and 3 pastries earlier but it was a very difficult discussion with DH I do not think I could have kept my cool for so long without my sugar)


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## Jazzbird

Yay Briss so happy for you. Keep us posted on your progress. So excited for you and glad you and your hubby have talked and agreed a way forwards. Xxx


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## Briss

Jazzbird, You are still with a very good chance, with good sperm it's always better to BD before O. scary stuff about your colleague though.

re dating, my ex colleague who invited me to her baby-shower recently is actually Russian and she met her English husband on the internet, they live in st albans (so reminds me of the birthday girl with nicole kidman, love that movie!) but there was no drama, she told me she just went through profiles, picked 3 most suitable candidates (although it was in Cambridge so the quality of the candidates might be slightly better than over here), met them and one of them seemed to fit her requirements for a good husband. he proposed after 2-3 months (it took mine 7 years, lots of nagging and a break up! how is this fair?) and they've been happily married for ages and are about to have their first child. but she is very calm, practical and level headed, no unnecessary emotions


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## gingmg

Briss - great news! Fx


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## Juniperjules

Jazzbird, you definitely still are in with a chance. If u BD'd 2 days before Ov that's great! Sperm can live for days.. It'll mean they are sitting waiting for the egg to drop. Don't feel disillusioned. 

Briss, fantastic news! And if having somewhere to go for some alone time helps ur DH then fair enough. maybe he wont do it anyway, but just knowing its an option might help mentally. So when will u start with injections etc???


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## Briss

Juniper, I think you are right as soon as we agreed that he can have his own place, he stopped mentioning it.

I am not sure whether I am going to be doing injections, with modified IVF the meds are the same but doses are much lower so I wont start them until later in the cycle. the nurse is supposed to explain it all on wednesday when I have my first scan.

My acne is getting worse this cycle, my chin looks like a battlefield :( I hope it's not an indication that my hormones are playing up.


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## Juniperjules

So exciting Briss. I just want October to get here already and get started now. I'm so nervous that my OH will suddenly get cold feet. For no particular reason mind you. I've asked him 'are u ok with IVF?' So many times that he started getting irritated... So I've shut up about it now. He's still away till Wednesday & I haven't brought it all up while he's been away. I think I'm just such a pessimist now that I can't help myself... But I also know that IF he was to suddenly decide he doesn't want to do it... Then I'm gonna go ahead with the Egg pick up & freeze my eggs. I've got this far & I've got the money so I think I'd just do it anyway. 

Like I said... I'm such a pessimist. I shouldn't think so negatively. He's told me repeatedly that he's ok with doing this...

By the way.. Anyone on twitter? There's a lovely little IVF community on twitter that I've found! Got a little group of girls who are all doing IVF in October to share the ride with!


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## Briss

Juniper, October is almost here but then I so hope you wont need IVF, fingers crossed for this cycle. I can totally understand re getting cold feet, once you start reading these consent forms, it's just so depressing you begin to doubt everything, then there are all these nasty side effects.... I decided to stop reading and just go with the process hoping for the best.


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## Blythe

Briss - great news about going ahead this month....very exciting.


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## Briss

Blythe, thanks. 

I've discovered a little (French i think) tea shop nearby - Kusmi Tea with fantastic tea blends, they do both green tea and mate and mix it up with various interesting flavors including chocolate! I went for this one - https://en.kusmitea.com/our-teas/wellness-tea/detox.html - excellent! it's rather expensive for tea but the quality and blends are just fantastic!


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## Blythe

Briss said:


> Blythe, thanks.
> 
> I've discovered a little (French i think) tea shop nearby - Kusmi Tea with fantastic tea blends, they do both green tea and mate and mix it up with various interesting flavors including chocolate! I went for this one - https://en.kusmitea.com/our-teas/wellness-tea/detox.html - excellent! it's rather expensive for tea but the quality and blends are just fantastic!

Those teas look wonderful. 

Are you going to do anything differently this cycle?....like coffee, yoga, advocado sort of stuff iykwim :) 

I want so much to go ahead and do it but the ££ side of things means only one round and I'm just too scared of a negative. I should just do it I guess. I'm feeling utterly miserable as it's that time in my cycle that I'm mentally preparing for the heartbreak of another failed month. I'm ok by AF time but this times my worst time. 

Remind me again of the cost of the natural modified if you don't mind ..is it about 4k all in (-icsi)?


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## Briss

Blythe, I think conventional IVf is rather costly but there are ways to save on meds (which I understand where the most cost comes from). natural IVF is around 3,000; modified is around 4,000 and ICSI + 800. I will keep track of the cost and let you know but I recall a lady shared her costs on modified IVF without ICSI at create and it was around 4,500 once you add all the extras 

I am not doing anything different this cycle cos I doubt it matters very much. I will try to eat more actually cos I am afraid of the meds messing up my cycle and ovaries. i am small but they always give me the same adult doses as everyone else so meds usually affect me as if I overdosed. I will stop coffee a few days before O just in case. My main concern is stress so I will be focusing on trying to ignore my work, unfortunately it's going to be very stressful time I just need to figure out how to block all that out of my mind. Will also try to go to bed early. 

Blythe, fingers crossed for this cycle, who knows it may turn out to be your lucky cycle :) I am so hoping you wont need IVF.


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## gingmg

I'm out, again. I released 3 eggs on clomid and not a single one took! Really?!?! Moving on to injectables this cycle. We probably should have gone straight for IVF. Well 2 more of these IUIs, then will do IVF. I need to go back to acupuncture and maybe find a infertility support group. This whole process is so isolating and frustrating and while baby and bump is great for support, I think I need real life support. Starting to get down again and I want to catch myself before I fall again. I have a history of depression and I think I'm a bit more emotionally labile than the average bear. I need to pay attention to these warning signs and set myself up with some help before I loose it like I did last spring. I also need to get back into yoga, I am a much saner more stable person when I do yoga. Is this why I'm not pregnant, because I'm an emotional nightmare?


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## gingmg

Oh also relapsed and bought ciggs today. Not good. Going to throw them out before bed. Tomorrow is a new day. I cannot let myself smoke again. I've forgiven myself for the lapse of judgment, but it cannot continue. This stops now! Well in a few hours from now.


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## Briss

gingmg, am very sorry! what a shame three eggs and none were successful. I am very sorry this is happening. I am sure quitting smoking is helping to improve egg quality but it will take a couple of more months at least. do not be discouraged it will happen for you.

afm, getting cold feet about IVF...


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## gingmg

Briss when do you start everything?


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## gingmg

Threw the ciggs out.


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## Breaking Dawn

Ging...I know exactly how you feel. 

Statistically...my IUI cycls were perfect!!!! 2-4 follies 40-100mm sperm and always a bfn.

So so so heartbreaking. 

:hugs:


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## Briss

we are going for the first scan today, and are due to pay the full amount and sign all the scary consent forms. will report back later today. Hubby and I were going through these forms last night and I just got really depressed and stressed thinking about it all, hubby as well. you want to be optimistic and do not want to think about all the negatives but these forms makes you think about the most terrible consequences and I am just so uncomfortable with the whole process (and I have not even started yet). it all seems like a huge mistake but if I stop now I will be back to square one doing the same thing we have been doing for years now. also this cycle just does not look right, my sex drive hit me on CD4 &#8211; way too early and it now goes down as I feel more and more stressed thinking about IVF; my acne got way out of control, I have spots in most unusual places like eyebrows! it just tells me that my hormones are weird this cycle. I cant make myself take any vitamins, or eat more healthy. Just cant block out all the negativity


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## Jazzbird

Briss - you must try to relax. Download a hypnosis cd - honestly it will help you zone out a bit. Also - yoga yoga yoga! Lots of deep breathing. Forget the consent forms - they are there to legally cover the clinic. 

Just go for it. Stop analysing your symptoms and try to visualise a nice big glowing egg growing and it being beautifully fertilised. 

This is all just a means to an ends - just to hold your own little bundle of joy. Keep focusing on that.

And keep us updated! Xxx


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## Jazzbird

Ps my friend had all the same misgivings and she ended up conceiving first ivf. Now she has her little girl and she's forgotten all about it. It's just a few weeks of pain. Xxx


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## Blythe

hi ladies

i have decided to step back from and resume in the new year. i mentioned a while back that i was considering a reading from a tarot card reader...well it turns out she was a astrologist. I spoke with her yesterday and liked her immediately...she is a psychiatric nurse too and works with mental health patients so i felt that gave her more credibility.

Anyhow, she said my body was not at all receptive to pregnancy at the moment...she said i was going through a dark phase and was maybe slightly depressed and should think about ensuring my B vits were up...poor energy levels and physically closed/grey presence is how she described me. In fact my reading was all very gloomy and she suggested i try and have some spontaneous fun with my DH...if not i could strangle the relationship.

she said by feb/mar 2014 i would start feeling pretty, feeling lighter and that this was the start of an amazing time for me...she said i would get pregnant most likely in July and that i had no reason to panic. She strongly suggested i back off getting pregnant for now...if i did fall pregnant it would be a miserable pregnancy and a child that i may resent. I told her i had been considering IVF towards the end of the year. She said not to do that as it would be a big waste of money.

Stepping back from all this i have decided to take a break from it all. i do believe i will get pregnant and i will still try and BD at least once in the fertile window but I'm stopping all supplements bar COQ10 and a multi vit and none at all for DH [also stopping all the charting, opks etc]. I had actually order about £100 worth the day before for DH. I will start with the supplements again properly in the new year and just focus in the meantime on my fitness. Im feeling lethargic and ttc has worn me down to the point of mental and physical collapse. I want to take some time to repair myself and not obsess and give my DH a break from it all.

it seems like madness to take a break when I'm 41 but there it is [the reading helped me focus on what is going wrong in my life and what i can do to make things better....I'm not taking everything she said as fact but i found it immensely helpful]...I'm doing this as i believe it will help me achieve my dream of becoming pregnant again and having another child. I'm going to try and let go for a while then come back recharged and excited about it again.

I will stay on this board because i love to know what you are doing and enjoy our exchanges :) and of course, i want to know about your progress towards pregnancy.

Briss - :hugs: say to yourself "STOP THINKING"....just say it. Give yourself over to the process and just do what you are told to do. Also i have been watching back episodes of Dowton Abbey and find it excellent at focusing my mind on something other than TTC!!!


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## Briss

Blythe, tbh I do not quite believe that your body is not receptive to pregnancy. your stats are great and your charts are just perfect textbook charts! everything that your astrologist said just makes me angry, how can she give advice of such magnitude? you are over 40 and she suggests that you wait for almost a year until July to get pregnant? a miserable pregnancy? really? If it was me I'd be furious. having said that, my interpretation of what she said and how you reacted is that you probably really need to take some time off TTc but please BD, you can forget about charting, vitamins etc (as you know after a while I have doubts about it all working anyway) but please make sure you BD around O, that all that matters. Hopefully, some time off will do you good and you will feel excited about TTC again and it will do the trick. I sometimes wonder whether creating new life takes more than just a sperm and an egg, maybe you do need some extra secret ingredient we're all missing and maybe it's different for everyone. when I got pregnant years ago I was obviously much younger but I was also very happy, totally in love (in other words had my eyes closed so I could not see what a miserable bugger was in front of me&#8230;) it was one of those states of body and mind you only get for a short period of time when you enter new relationship and everything is just wonderful. maybe that's my missing ingredient but then I am screwed cos unless I fall for somebody else I cant return that feeling for my Dh.

I was also watching Dowton Abbey, was so excited when they had fertility issues but alas, some minor procedure and she is pregnant immediately &#8211; how far is this from real life, well at least from my life for sure 

Blythe, please do not disappear from B&B, I would also be very interested to see what's life outside TTC looks like


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## Jazzbird

Hey Blythe

Think it's great you are taking a ttc break but agree with Briss - continue bd around ovulation. 

I just think it's dangerous to trust psychic readings - whilst I personally think some maybe accurate, the vast majority are not. I do believe the future is not ours to see. 

But taking a more relaxed ttc approach can only be a good thing.


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## Blythe

Briss said:


> Blythe, tbh I do not quite believe that your body is not receptive to pregnancy. your stats are great and your charts are just perfect textbook charts! everything that your astrologist said just makes me angry, how can she give advice of such magnitude? you are over 40 and she suggests that you wait for almost a year until July to get pregnant? a miserable pregnancy? really? If it was me I'd be furious. having said that, my interpretation of what she said and how you reacted is that you probably really need to take some time off TTc but please BD, you can forget about charting, vitamins etc (as you know after a while I have doubts about it all working anyway) but please make sure you BD around O, that all that matters. Hopefully, some time off will do you good and you will feel excited about TTC again and it will do the trick. I sometimes wonder whether creating new life takes more than just a sperm and an egg, maybe you do need some extra secret ingredient we're all missing and maybe it's different for everyone. when I got pregnant years ago I was obviously much younger but I was also very happy, totally in love (in other words had my eyes closed so I could not see what a miserable bugger was in front of me) it was one of those states of body and mind you only get for a short period of time when you enter new relationship and everything is just wonderful. maybe that's my missing ingredient but then I am screwed cos unless I fall for somebody else I cant return that feeling for my Dh.
> 
> I was also watching Dowton Abbey, was so excited when they had fertility issues but alas, some minor procedure and she is pregnant immediately  how far is this from real life, well at least from my life for sure
> 
> Blythe, please do not disappear from B&B, I would also be very interested to see what's life outside TTC looks like


thank you :flower: your reply is exactly why i love coming on here :)

re dowton abbey - i am starting at the end of the first series and currently on episode where cousin matthew realises his legs are working. i read up on whats going on at the moment though :(

she said she thought july looked best for me to conceive but its all good from feb. anyhow, i will still BD but probably only once...i just cannot deal with the panic around timing etc for a while. 

i do really want to get fit again and have some definition....i want to enjoy sex again. If im honest i have not enjoyed sex for ages and ages...my body still throbs now and then :) but only once in the past couple of years has it throbbed around DH :( im hoping getting fit may help with my confidence in the bedroom and just generally help me feel better.

i hope the scan goes well today...hopefully the start of a wonderful time for you....


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## Blythe

Jazzbird said:


> Hey Blythe
> 
> Think it's great you are taking a ttc break but agree with Briss - continue bd around ovulation.
> 
> I just think it's dangerous to trust psychic readings - whilst I personally think some maybe accurate, the vast majority are not. I do believe the future is not ours to see.
> 
> But taking a more relaxed ttc approach can only be a good thing.

it wasnt really a psychic reading but an astrological one but i do take your point. i have always been very sceptical of these things but i found some comfort in it. One thing she did say is that people at work are going to be talking about me and i will be paranoid...also there could be some form of public humiliation coming up!! according to her this should go on throughout sept/oct....hurrah hope that bit is not true.

what are you doing for acu at the moment? is your DH still reluctant to do it?


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## Jazzbird

Public humiliation sounds awful! I've been to a few tarot readers and psychics. I even bought a pack of tarot cards myself ... As one psychic told me I too have a gift. I actually do find tarot cards weirdly accurate. I always pulled out 9 of swords - out of a pack of 78. I just didn't understand the meaning of the card at all. I do now since I'm an adult. It had a picture of a woman sat up in bed blindfolded with 9 swords behind her. It signifies the torment of having imagined fears ... And that the fears are worse than the actual worry materialising. 

It's the perfect card for me. 

No I'm not doing acu - just sticking with herbs. My cycles have been shorter and temp rise more pronounced and sustained. I'm trying to relax more about it but I'm approaching my 37 birthday and it is scaring me that nothing is happening. 

I wonder at what point would I consider ivf. I'm going to give it another year. 

But anyhow I'm glad you are taking a more relaxed approach. That's when they say it happens ... Although I hate it when people say that to me.


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## gingmg

Blythe- Must feel somewhat empowering to make a decision like that? A break may do a world of good for you Focusing on other things for awhile, getting your life and old self back, good for you- sounds heavenly!! The best part of a break for you versus a break for me, is that as long as you keep BD, you may find yourself pregnant anyway! I need to follow your lead. I mean we will keep trying, but I need to read books, watch movies, do yoga, ect ect ect. I keep letting TTC rule my life and it's not healthy. I need to learn some balance.


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## Breaking Dawn

Balance is the magic word.

TTC can sucks everything out of you and become time, money and energy consuming. Which just feeds into tour negative feelings when AF comes! 

A break or even ttc without the opks etc..just sex can be so.liberating!!!!


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## Briss

Just had my first scan and appointment with the nurse at the clinic &#8211;altogether took about 3 hours, lots to take in! 

AMH: apparently my AMH was misleading cos it was done abroad and they used different units&#8211; it was in ng/mL but supposed to be in pmol/L. After the conversion my depressing 1.38 turned into fairly respectable 9.9!: 1.38 ng/mL x 1000 mL/1 L x 1 mol/140 kg = 9.9 pmol/L. ladies can you please check your units for AMH?

Protocol: since my AHM improved the doc said we should really look into fully stimulated IVF cos we will get 10% more of success rates. also he said my previous AFC was not indicative cos the cyst on the left could have prevented them from seeing more follicles. if we are to do fully stimulated cycle we should skip this one cos stimulation starts from CD2. Obviously, my hopes started to get up but then we had a scan and I ended up with only 6 follicles! previously it was 9. how depressing is this? so he stopped talking about stimulated cycle and we are going ahead with modified natural, as planned. He also said that my FSH does not correspond to my AMH and AFC, he's seen it before but it's very rare so basically my stats are very contradictory. 

Follicles: CD6: 6 follicles: 1 on the right and 5 on the left; two of them are 10-11 mm; one 7 mm; the rest below 6 mm. For some reason my right ovary is not producing many follicles 1-2, I wonder if it's because of the cyst. 

lining: 5.78 &#8211; he said it's very good. no idea what it means cos AF is still here. 

Fees: we paid about 4,000 pounds; but there will be more to pay for the meds 

Injections: what???!!! I am in shock! I know I should not be but for some reason I persuaded myself that there will be no injections since it's just very mild stimulation, almost none, I will be taking tablets. So not the case!! it's going to be injections at least once a day into my tummy fat!! probably starting from today&#8230; I am so scared I cant even think about it. I did some bloods today and based on the results they will tell me today whether I should start the injections today.

DH: was with me all the time really happy about it, although his impression was that no one really knows anything in this place and they have no idea what they are doing. I guess it's because they adopt the protocol depending on your cycle and it changes daily so they do not plan ahead.


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## Blythe

gingmg said:


> Blythe- Must feel somewhat empowering to make a decision like that? A break may do a world of good for you Focusing on other things for awhile, getting your life and old self back, good for you- sounds heavenly!! The best part of a break for you versus a break for me, is that as long as you keep BD, you may find yourself pregnant anyway! I need to follow your lead. I mean we will keep trying, but I need to read books, watch movies, do yoga, ect ect ect. I keep letting TTC rule my life and it's not healthy. I need to learn some balance.

It's crap isn't it. I have a pile of books to read and I do love to lose myself in a book but haven't touched them for over 2 years. I just want to try and have a laugh. I'm not sure I can let go but I will try my best. I'm so sorry your iui did not work. Try to keep looking forward and keeping positive. I'm very certain it will happen for us all :flower:


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## Jazzbird

Briss - AMAZING news about your AMH! You must feel a lot more positive. you should def proceed with ivf! Apparently injections aren't too bad (coming from a friend who hates needles).


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## Briss

There was a bit of drama tonight cos the doc was supposed to call me and he got delayed and I started panicking not knowing whether i should start the injections or not, i started calling all their numbers I had at hand including some personal mobiles :) but then the doc called (well after 8 pm) and told me my estrogen was 295 and LH 5.6 - does not indicate that my follicles are cysts (which he was afraid of cos they seemed to be quite large) and I could proceed with injections.

I've just injected my tummy with a needle!!! and jazzbird, you were right it's not that bad. the whole thing took me 20 min most of which was watching youtube videos on how to inject yourself with menopur. I did not feel a thing when the needle went in (was concentrating on pinching my belly fat really hard!) but then it got messy cos menopur did not want to go in and I was pressing and it was really slow so when I took it out I started bleeding. still not too bad, although there is a small mark left. 

I still do not quite believe that this is happening, just way too medical to even imagine that this is something to do with getting pregnant.


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## Blythe

this is very exciting....

do you have all the meds you will need for this cycle? do you have to take something everyday before ec?

do you have a new scan booked?

sorry for all the questions....it seems we have been discussing ivf for so long [hang on....we have!] and now it is actually happening


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## Breaking Dawn

Briss...i sO proud of you.

I had injections with IUIs as well even low dose meds require the injection bc they are hormones that do the stimulation. Tablets are not hormones they are chemical so is not as effective.

This is exciting...sending you tons of positive vibes.. i feel that there is good news on its way :)


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## BBbliss

Hi girls, mind if I come in? I could be doing an IVF/ICSI in jan14. And I found it so helpful to read about your first day Briss, I'd love to keep in touch and follow your progress if you don't mind. 

After I had my one tube unblocked (the left was impossible) and started my first clomid cycle I found out the same week my DF has male factor infertility. So that was a waste of a clomid cycle. I'm feeling a little defeated today. DF is starting a nice supplement regime and we are retesting him in a couple of months. 

Blythe, I think a break is exactly what you need. TTC has turned out to be very emotionaly consuming. I understand now. Invest in yourself, become strong, work out, read some sexy books ;) I can recommend some haha


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## Juniperjules

BRISS!!!!!! I can't believe you've started already!!! It's fantastic! And OMG 9.9p/mol is bloody great AMH! It means ur reserve is great! That's a huge bonus hon! Wow I feel so happy for you! And I did check, my AMH is def 42.8 p/mol. I had 8 follicles at my AFC, my left ovary only had 3... & for a good few years (at least 5 or 6) I've had little niggly pains on the left side at various times of the month..I wonder now if there's something going on there?? Never investigated it.. Usually feel that it's bowel related.. Maybe a touch of IBS?? I react really strongly to certain foods like chickpeas, kidney beans etc.. Do u guys think they would have spotted cysts during my AFC if I'd had any? Surely they would.. 

So with ur injections, sometimes if u push the needle all the way in, u then will find it hard to actually push the plunger in- it kind of creates a vacuum effect... So next time, either push the needle in & then pull it back just slightly so there's a little gap b/w the plastic bit of the syringe and ur skin (ie therefore just a teeny bit of the actual needle can b seen), and THEN push the plunger. OR alternately, only push it that far first off- leaving a little bit of the needle not pushed into ur skin. I usually find when I'm injecting patients that the first option is best, all the way in, then pull back slightly b4 plunging. 

Its so funny.. i actually feel butterflies for you! Vicarious butterflies! : ) it's true, we've all been talking about IVF for a while... It's so exciting to have one of us actually doing it! Fingers crossed you'll be out first bfp!!

Blythe, I think at the end of the day if it feels right it usually is right. Whether we do or don't believe in psychics/astrology/ numerology any of those things etc.. I firmly believe that we all have certain instincts that tell us when something is right or wrong... A feeling.. A sense.. Something in the pit of ur stomach that feels right or wrong. I wouldn't say I'm psychic or anything like that- but I ALWAYS know when something is wrong with my loved ones. I dont know wot you'd call it.. but It's weird, even if I'm not with them, something starts to make me feel uncomfortable, anxious, unsettled.. Bit mad really! ; ) but it usually means something. 

So if seeing this woman has confirmed something inside you that u that says its time to rest & restore- then I'd go with that gut instinct. If u felt otherwise & were now stressed out about wot u should do, then I'd say 'nope, ignore wot she says- power on & ignore it all'. But it sounds like u just needed someone else to give u permission to let go for a little while. You sound happy with ur decision, and that's what's most important.


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## Juniperjules

Oh... And despite all my neurotic thoughts- I mentioned the IVF to OH tonite. I was feeling paranoid about it. I just said 'so... We're still good to do IVF in October?' & he said 'yep' without a seconds hesitation. And I said 'so ur still ok with it?' And he said 'yes, how many times are you going to ask me?'.. To which I just smiled & said 'well, I don't want to assume these things!'. 

So now I'll call my nurse next week & try to stop over thinking it all!


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## Jazzbird

Hi BBbliss! Of course you are welcome!! Always nice to see a new face. Sorry to read about your journey - it sounds really tough. 

Briss - we are all so excited for you. Keep posting. I know this doesn't feel natural to you but once a baby is in there, you honestly will not care! 

Juniper - so excited for you too. October is less than a week away. 

AFM - in the 2ww. But I have no hopes for this cycle. I'm 6 days post ovulation and can feel af cramps. This happened last month too. I'm also waking up ridiculously early - today 5am!


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## Briss

Ladies, thank you so much for your encouragements!! I really need it. for some reason, deep down I do not believe it's going to work, I do not know why just does not seem possible and it's only when I read your posts I start feeling more excited and hopeful about the whole thing. 

Blythe, it's all very flexible at the moment and they give you instructions every couple of days. yesterday and today I am on 150 IU menopur injections once a day. On Friday I have a scan and they will tell me what's next. I only have 4 menopurs (I only needed two for the time being but asked for 4 cos was not sure how many I would waste before I manage to inject myself&#8230; glad it worked out OK)

Juniperjules, thanks! I am quite pleasantly surprised myself with my AMH, at least it's much closer to my age group. how silly of me to never even check the units. I think something is wrong with my right ovary cos last time it only had 2 follicles and this time just 1. There must be something dodgy going on with the cyst that may prevent follicles developing. it's shame the clinic does not want to investigate. they would definitely see a cyst if there was one when they were counting your follicles. they are larger than follicles so it's hard to miss. Thanks for the advice on the injections. I will definitely try the first method tonight. 

BBbliss, welcome! I do hope you will get your miracle BFP and wont need IVF though.

Jazzbird, AF and BFP have the same symptoms so until AF shows up you are still with a chance. 

Breaking Dawn, thank you! what meds did you have to inject for IUI? was it also menopur?

afm, I could feel the effect of the hormones very quickly after the injection. I started getting hot and feverish so decided to go to bed early. Unfortunately, I did not sleep. Just could not. I think it may also be the effect of the meds. I also got a headache - very similar to a type of headache I get just before AF but it does not go away. Also felt a bit sick this morning and did not even fancy my usual cappuccino which is so not like me. my CBFM gave me low today but I wonder if should even bother with it this cycle considering that I am on meds and trigger shot? should I just give it a miss this cycle and save some sticks? there is a small risk of me ovulating early so if this happens my CBFM could potentially pick it up. Am very upset with DH, he turned up at 3 am and drunk! WTF!!! I know he felt really weird after spending a few hours at the clinic but that's no excuse. I really need his sperm to be better.


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## BBbliss

Briss, your've thru so much to get to this point, you are such a brave lady :) thank you so much for sharing your steps here. AFM, I'm praying for a miracle really. It's helping me watch your positive attitude and maybe even if I get to IVF it won't be so scary, btw great news on AMH!!!

Jazzbird, thank you for the nice welcoming. I like this group, you girls are REAL and honest :)

Blythe, did you experience depression from clomid? I'm in a funk that I just can't shake. I know I've had a tough couple of months but this feeling is just ridiculous. I just look sad and my energy level is really low...


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## gingmg

Argh!! Smoked again today. I must really be STUPID! This stops tonight. Waiting for my yoga class to start. Hopefully that will kick my butt into gear. Injectables start tomorrow, gotta stop this now. I forgive myself for the slip up, but there is no reason why I can't get back on track. All is not lost, just a blip in the road.


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## BBbliss

gingmg said:


> Argh!! Smoked again today. I must really be STUPID! This stops tonight. Waiting for my yoga class to start. Hopefully that will kick my butt into gear. Injectables start tomorrow, gotta stop this now. I forgive myself for the slip up, but there is no reason why I can't get back on track. All is not lost, just a blip in the road.

Forgive and love yourself. This morning I got really emotional at the end of my yoga class when the instructor said " love yourself with all your imperfections. You are all imperfectly perfect just as you are"


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## gingmg

Yoga was wonderful. My best friend is an instructor so I went to her restorative class. She knows everything I have been struggling with and did a lot of fertility poses for me and a lot of poses to release anxiety. Feel much better. I usually like fast paced classes, but her class was exactly what I needed. Gonna try to make sure I do some tomorrow too. Yoga really does make me feel better.


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## gingmg

BBbliss- what kind of yoga do you do? I usually do vinyasa flow, but every now and then ill do restorative, hatha, or kundalini.


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## Blythe

BBbliss said:


> Blythe, did you experience depression from clomid? I'm in a funk that I just can't shake. I know I've had a tough couple of months but this feeling is just ridiculous. I just look sad and my energy level is really low...

i took my clomid shortly before bed so missed most of the side effects that way but I'm afraid i did have a dark heavy cloud for a few days each cycle where i felt quite dark. Once i realised what it was [a side effect from the clomid] i found it easier to deal with. The only other negative side effect which will stick with me is that my period have gone from a healthy 5 days to barely 2 days so i guess clomid has had a negative effect on my lining. this was my last cycle and im expecting AF today/tomorrow as spotting has started. i wont be doing it again but glad i tried it as so many women are sucessful with it.

i hope very much you will be one of those women :flower:


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## Briss

BBbliss, I love your charts! your temp look so good I think it's a great sign that everything is working as it should just wait for the egg to get through the open tube and I am very sure it will happen soon. I love that &#8211; "You are all imperfectly perfect just as you are"

gingmg, do not be too hard on yourself, You've been doing amazingly well. just forgive yourself for one slip up and move on. I really need a bit of your motivation to carry on with yoga, just cant get myself to do it regularly. I like kundalini yoga it's quite intense. 

A colleague who invited me to her baby shower gave birth to a girl this morning, she sent me a picture&#8230; happy for her but every time this happens it hits me really hard; 


IVF Update: CD 8-10

CD 8 Bloods: was told it's very good
Estrogen: increased from 295 (CD6) to 632
LH: incleased from 5.6 (CD6) to 6.5 

Follicles: CD8 &#8211; 3 dominant follicles; left: there has been some progress and 3 follicles grew a little bit: from 10mm to 13; from 7 to 9mm; from 5 to 7 mm; there are two little one which did not seem to grow. right: unfortunately my only 10mm follicle did not grow at all; it's possible that it's empty but can only find out for sure at EC; I did not ask whether I have enough follicles and how fast they grow and how does it compare to others because I just do not want to get obsessed with it; I feel like I have no control whatsoever and I do not feel like the clinic can control the process either; they placed me on a fairly standard protocol and vary it little bit but generally it's outside of their control so I let it go. 

lining: I think it's about 7 , triple layer &#8211; she said it's very good and blood flow is also very good. Although I am still spotting

meds: I am to continue daily menopur; + from today I am to add one more shot of cetrotide a day (to suppress ovulation); I can do both shots at he same time.

Fees: paid 200 for meds and bloods 

Cyst on the right: looks like it's not been affected by menopur; no change in size (I am very happy about that)

Side effects: headache is my constant companion; it just never goes away; started about 30 min after my first shot and is constantly there; it's driving me slightly crazy. I had the same reaction when I tried contraception pills &#8211; constant headache and I was told I am not suited to this type of protection and should stick to condoms 

Scan: next scan is scheduled for Sunday CD 10

My DH is far more positive; he entertains the idea of twins mainly cos it means we get a family in one go and he is off the hook; not so fast cos even if we manage to have an IVF baby I will continue TTC for a natural conception. I do not think I will give up on this even if we have twins


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## Blythe

Briss said:


> BBbliss, I love your charts! your temp look so good I think it's a great sign that everything is working as it should just wait for the egg to get through the open tube and I am very sure it will happen soon. I love that  "You are all imperfectly perfect just as you are"
> 
> gingmg, do not be too hard on yourself, You've been doing amazingly well. just forgive yourself for one slip up and move on. I really need a bit of your motivation to carry on with yoga, just cant get myself to do it regularly. I like kundalini yoga it's quite intense.
> 
> A colleague who invited me to her baby shower gave birth to a girl this morning, she sent me a picture happy for her but every time this happens it hits me really hard;
> 
> 
> IVF Update: CD 8-10
> 
> CD 8 Bloods: was told it's very good
> Estrogen: increased from 295 (CD6) to 632
> LH: incleased from 5.6 (CD6) to 6.5
> 
> Follicles: CD8  3 dominant follicles; left: there has been some progress and 3 follicles grew a little bit: from 10mm to 13; from 7 to 9mm; from 5 to 7 mm; there are two little one which did not seem to grow. right: unfortunately my only 10mm follicle did not grow at all; it's possible that it's empty but can only find out for sure at EC; I did not ask whether I have enough follicles and how fast they grow and how does it compare to others because I just do not want to get obsessed with it; I feel like I have no control whatsoever and I do not feel like the clinic can control the process either; they placed me on a fairly standard protocol and vary it little bit but generally it's outside of their control so I let it go.
> 
> lining: I think it's about 7 , triple layer  she said it's very good and blood flow is also very good. Although I am still spotting
> 
> meds: I am to continue daily menopur; + from today I am to add one more shot of cetrotide a day (to suppress ovulation); I can do both shots at he same time.
> 
> Fees: paid 200 for meds and bloods
> 
> Cyst on the right: looks like it's not been affected by menopur; no change in size (I am very happy about that)
> 
> Side effects: headache is my constant companion; it just never goes away; started about 30 min after my first shot and is constantly there; it's driving me slightly crazy. I had the same reaction when I tried contraception pills  constant headache and I was told I am not suited to this type of protection and should stick to condoms
> 
> Scan: next scan is scheduled for Sunday CD 10
> 
> My DH is far more positive; he entertains the idea of twins mainly cos it means we get a family in one go and he is off the hook; not so fast cos even if we manage to have an IVF baby I will continue TTC for a natural conception. I do not think I will give up on this even if we have twins


Thanks for setting out so much detail :flower: 

Is that all you will be paying for the meds or is there more to pay? So far it all sounds positive other than those headaches. 

Can I also ask how much time did you take off work for the scans? I'm trying to work out if I can get away with not telling boss If I go for it once we get back in to TTC properly

Hope you have a restful weekend and the headaches go too


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## Breaking Dawn

Briss...thanks for sharing your IVF journey!

Sounds like everything is going well!! 3 great follies!!

I did not take menopur before..on my IUI cycles I did Puregon, gonal f and also ovidrel trigger. 

So excited to follow you along!!

AFM...AF is due on Monday. Sunday is my bday. Lol. So I will get a bloody present Monday. 

Anyhow...we only BD 4 days before O and the day of O. so we are not full steam ttc....but of course a surprise bfp would be amazing. 

Especially as I'm getting older officially this weekend.


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## Breaking Dawn

Blythe....here is what learned about ivf and time off.

I can get all my scan appts early morning and then come in to work. 

For retrieval...have to take that day off bc its done sedated a d DH would have to drive me home. Also, if I could manage another day off I would take off the day after ER but not required.

For embryo transfer...here is where I would try to take at least 3 days off...day of transfer and 2 days after. I would hope the 4th day would end up being a weekend so I would get 5 days off in total. If not, then I would see if I could manage a week off as vacation time.


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## Briss

Blythe, I did not take any time off yet but I can be flexible at work if necessary (I feel I have the right after all the all-nighters and week-ends/bank holidays at the office!). Scans can take anything between 30 min to 2 hours as sometimes you have to wait. I will definitely take 1-2 days off for ER/ET. I pay for the meds as I go along, I have enough until my next scan on Sunday. Every time I come for a scan I pay for meds and bloods. You will be going for scans every other day; Harley street is on my way to work so for me it's handy and if I do not have to wait I am not even that late for work. Today I had to wait for an hour so turned up at the office well after 11 am. A create you will be seen by different doctors every time you come for a scan so there is no continuity as such but on the positive side each doc can offer I bit more info e.g. I am concerned that my right ovary is not producing many follicles. what's wrong with it? one doc did not have any answer to that; the other said it's not an issue and rather accidental; there is always one dominant ovary and in my case it's the left one; but it can change. 

Breaking Dawn, fingers crossed you will get a really wonderful birthday present! what BD strategy works best is so hard to tell, yours may turn out to be just perfect. Do you really think you need 3 days off after ET? I was thinking of just 1-2 days but now I wonder if I should just go ahead and relax properly with a few more days.


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## melly2

Briss,

I'm finally catching up on your IVF journey, I've been absent from the boards lately. I have confidence that this will work for you and you finally have your baby!! I can't wait to see how this all progresses. Sorry to hear about the headache, but I'm also glad that it's the only side affect that you're experiencing. I can't wait to see your updates!

We're still in the same ol' situation. I think in the next month or two we will be more decisive with everything. Right now, we're trying to determine if my husband has a gene mutation which could ultimately leave him with a nuerodegenerative disease like Parkinson's. I'm trying to stay positive about it all, but I find myself getting down. As a result, we're leaning more and more towards donor sperm, more because of all the health issues in my husband's family. As much as I love the idea of having a child share the genetics of my husband, in the same breath, it scares me to death. The cancer rate, rare diseases, psychiatric problems, cholesterol, high blood pressure, diabetes, heart conditions, is just a small list of all the issues in his IMMEDIATE family. It's quite unbelievable really, and now with this latest issue, he is now more convinced that he should not be pro-creating. So, with that said, we're leaning more towards IUI with donor sperm.

Good luck, ladies!


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## Breaking Dawn

Briss.. thanks hun. It's true no one know what works when BDing. Could be any randomness.

As for days off for ET, I just feel after spending time reading and talking to a relative that's a dr. You Need to be relaxed..and calm..and the best way to do that is to take time off.

Especially if I'm spending so much money on ivf...and then I don't give it the best possible chance of success.


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## Briss

melly, thank you, happy to hear from you! I think if we start looking at our genes we all probably going to discover various terrible diseases that go through our blood lines. the risk is always there. but it's not necessarily that we will develop any of the inherited problems during our lifetime. cancer - I mean it's everywhere really I do not think i know a family that would not have at least one member developing some type of cancer; as i recently discovered developing cancer is a lot to do with your lifestyle and I think this risk could be managed; psychiatric problems - like what? if your husband has schizophrenia and it runs in his family that's serious but I doubt it; cholesterol and high blood pressure - as far as I can see most people develop it in old age, diabetes - not fun but people live with it, heart conditions - most people will dye from some kind of heart failure there is no getting away from it. to be honest on your list I do not see anything particularly rare, most people have what's on your list. can you really guarantee that your donor wont have any of the above? 
i think there are ways nowadays to do genetic screening of the embryos in certain circumstances, it's still rather controversial though. 

It's quite funny, I told my mum that because of IVf even if we get pregnant I will worry until I see the baby and that it's fine and that I am sure it's mine and my mum said oh dear you really think you are going to stop worrying then? that's when you really start worrying about your child and you wont ever stop :) she is right of course 

I find it really hard to keep our IVF a secret; there are a few close friends who have been there for me to listen about my TTC tragedy and now I cant even share with them what we are going through. I mean if we end up with twins how can i even explain it to anyone, people would probably know I am lying.

I am also very sad, tomorrow is 2 years since my father passed away and I really want to be with my family who lives abroad but I cant travel because IVF is more involved than I thought. I am very grateful for skype though. 

I did my double injection tonight, was not easy, I am so not born for this. did my first cetrotide and was panicking cos the thing would not dissolve and it said it has to be clear with no particles; was about to call the emergency number at the clinic but then watched a few youtube videos and realise that it takes some time so I think it was alright in the end. was rather sensitive I mean i could feel the needle going in, not terribly painful though. I was trying to get it out a little bit before injecting but I guess I need to practice more it did not quite work yet. also when I took it out the was a few drops coming out of me... the area was quite red. no bleeding though.


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## Breaking Dawn

Briss....to be honest it is not anyone business how you have children....just smile and say yes we are blessed....and if some one knows that you went to a clinic...smile and say yes we are blessed.

YouTube is amazing for injection vids....I went on to watch the puregon injections!


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## Juniperjules

Briss, just on ur comment about twins.... If u get a couple of good embryos how many will u put back? 

I have done some research on this, including listening to a really great podcast with a FS & embryologist & all the best advice points to only ever doing single embryo transfers. It is something that many FS around the world are trying to encourage, & to change the mind set of multiple embryo transfers being a good option.

I keep reading girls saying they are having 2 sometimes 3 bcos they think it increases ur chances. It actually doesn't. Infact embryos can interfere with each other so it can do more harm than good. It's much more advisable to do single transfers, & freeze any others. Frozen embryo transfers are AS successful, if not more sometimes due to the fact that the body doesn't have to deal with all the drugs that have been metabolised in a full cycle (or even a modified one such as ur having). I know at one stage I myself thought 'hey I'd be happy with twins!' And would have easily done a double transfer. But now, after wot I know, I will only do single transfers. I would of course still happily welcome twins, but the risk is so much higher for both mum & babies. And at this age, I want to minimise as many risks as I can, so it seems contradictory to then add risks by taking the chance of ending up with a twin pregnancy. My lovely girlfriend put 2 embryos back on a number of cycles. None worked. Then after a few months break tried again with 2 embies... And TA DA!!!!! TWINS. We're the same age. She's 37 weeks & completely exhausted, not sleeping.. Her babies appear to be doing fine thank god. But it looks tough.. Really tough. 

I mostly don't comment on other threads about it bcos I don't want to be opinionated- but I SOOOO want this to work for you, & I know in this thread we are all pretty honest and open with opinions & advice. 

I know like you & everyone else really, I am so hoping that ill only need one cycle & get pregnant. But I figure if I don't, but have at least one or even 2 frozen embies, then that's something. At least I can try again without it being a full cycle. And frozen transfers are as successful, sometimes more successful bcos ur bodie isn't struggling to rid itself of drugs/hormones etc AND to nurture a little embryo too. 

Just my two bobs worth ; )


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## Jazzbird

Briss - sorry to hear about the anniversary of your fathers death. You made the right decision not to go. You need to give yourself the best chance. Hugs xxx


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## gingmg

Juniper- looks like I have a lot of reading and research to do if we end up going down the Ivf path. Lots to think about.


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## Juniperjules

Yep definitely lots to absorb gingmg that's for sure. 

Today I booked in to see a new TCM guy. I want acupuncture b4 & after embryo transfer, & I was seeing a great lady last year, but she's just a bit too far away. I'm on another forum & there's a thread that girls going to my FS chat, and lots of them see this particular guy called Richard. Has a good reputation for helping girls during IVF. And he's 15mins from home! Bonus! So going to see him on Monday. Might've left it a bit late, but something's better than nothing I figure.


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## Briss

Juniper, I hear you on twins, we are not supposed to have twins naturally and from what i read it's a glitch in the system. The risks are also higher. I know that in other countries they even transfer more than 2 embryos; in the UK it's not more than 2. I think it depends on how they estimate your chances for implantation. In our age group they usually go for 2 but tbh I doubt we will have any cos my DH came home drunk last night, again!! I am so disappointed and losing all hope. Good luck with your new TCH guy! it's always great when other people can recommend somebody who really made a difference.


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## BBbliss

Gingmg, I do a vinyasa flow/fusion class but every instructor has their own style. It really feels amazing, I'd love to try a "restorative" session sound heavenly :)

Blythe, I know I had a lot going on but I think the clomid did put me down. I'm feeling better today. Knowing about the side affect did help me be kinder to myself these past couple of days. I don't know what it will do to my AF as its already 2,3 days as it is now. I'm taking L-arginine, it's suppose to help with lining. We'll see... I know it didn't work for you, but I'm happy you gave it a try. I had big hopes for my cycle, but that was till I found out about DF 0%morph :( 

Briss, sorry to hear about your dad, i lost mine 23 years ago and i miss him so much. 
Your IVF has been just so enlightening, it's the first time I "know" someone going thru it. Thank you so much for taking the time.
I know how it feels when you can't or want to tell your friends. This TTC journey has made me distance myself from several of my girls friends, I just lost patience for small talk, senseless gossip and I really didn't have anything I wanted to share with anyone. Btw, thank you for commenting on my charts, I do hope it means all my hormone levels are good. I never had my progesterone checked but I do notice how hot I get on my second w of my LP. The last couple of nights I haven't been able to get a good read due to work schedule and it kills me, I've become so addicted to temping. 

Juniper, I've read some studies also as it looks like I have to end up doing IVF. All my numbers are good but I'm still 44 and DF sperm needs a miraculous improvement, and yes they are finding out one is better then two but after a "certain" age (late 30's) they still think doubling your chances brings a better chance of outcome. I've always been fascinated by twins and to be honest I'd love to have them. There are also statistics that say the older the woman is the more likely she is to have a multiple birth naturally. I don't know, I just think it's a beautiful thing, the real "glitch" is infertility.


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## Briss

IVF Update

CBFM: HIGH

Scan: 2 dominant follicles; left follicle 16 mm (grew 3 mm in 2 days); right follicle: 11 mm; other follicles reduced in size; for egg collection follicles need to be at least 17 mm; slightly depressing cos right follicle is most likely empty and was not increasing in size as it should; basically we have almost the same result if i had not taken the meds: one dominant follicle; either menopur is not working for me or I need larger doses to see any effect; I could have just gone with no stimulation at all and still get one follicle; My left ovary is very sensitive I feel like I am about to O and if it was not for Cetrotide I'd be most likely ovulating now. 

Lining: 11.4 mm; triple layer &#8211; I am not sure what this means and what are the other options for the lining but they all keep saying it's promising. I was spotting until CD9 which is way too long and has not happened in many years; 

Cyst on the right: 24x22x23; roughly the same size as before; still not being affected by the meds; very happy about that 

Bloods:
Estrogen: increased from 632 (CD8) to 1,100; was told it's promising; it almost doubled in 2 days and i guess that prompted my CBFM to move to HIGH;
LH: stayed the same at 6.5 (being suppressed with meds)

Meds:
150 IU Menopur
0.25 mg Cetrotide

Scan: next scan is scheduled for CD 11

My headache got better but i am still no closer to getting used to the injections. Feel slightly defeated today by the scan results but I guess we wont know anything until egg collection which may happen on wednesday. DH is still attached to his beer so even if I have a good egg I am so not sure about his sperm and our chances for fertilising that egg.


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## Blythe

There's some good stuff here briss. I understand your disappointment re other follies but one great one will be good but of course it does make you question the meds. I guess they start you on minimum doses based on your bloods, afc etc. I just wanted to ask about your DH and drinking. Is it a couple of bottle of beer or a good few pints he is putting away?


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## Briss

Blythe, I really cant say how much he drinks, i am afraid it must be at least 1-2 pints a day :(


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## Briss

I am having doubts, with DH drinking daily I am not sure I want to go on with IVF :( Apparently it's so tricky to get divorced, I have to go through court?? I thought you can just sign something in the registry office and be done with. I was really hoping he is going to play fair with IVf and all but it's the same old story; it's never going to change, isn't it? I just do not know how I am going to do this alone but I really do not see what else I can do


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## BBbliss

Briss said:


> I am having doubts, with DH drinking daily I am not sure I want to go on with IVF :( Apparently it's so tricky to get divorced, I have to go through court?? I thought you can just sign something in the registry office and be done with. I was really hoping he is going to play fair with IVf and all but it's the same old story; it's never going to change, isn't it? I just do not know how I am going to do this alone but I really do not see what else I can do

Briss, this is tough.. dH does not sound supportive, it's almost as if he's trying to sabotage the process. I know you don't feel this way but you are still young and now that you just found out your OV is not as bad as you thought, you also have more time then you thought. I don't know the entire story as I'm new to this conversation, but look at me! At 43 I found the love of my life. I'm not saying get divorced, I'm not sure if you are heading in that direction or not but just know you deserve better and you still have a chance. With or without him. 

Being a mom to an unsupportive dad is not easy. It's almost better to do it by sperm donor. That way you have nobody to resent.


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## Jazzbird

Briss - I agree with BBbliss. Your OH is just unbelievable. Do you think he would be more supportive if a child arrived? And is he still planning to rent somewhere else during ivf process? That in itself is such a non committal thing to do. 

You have more time than you think. I personally would rather go with a sperm donor than have a child with someone who didn't seen committed to having one. 

Divorce can be easy if both parties are willing. It's when one party doesn't agree that it starts getting messy and long. For example the splitting if finance assets etc. I recently went through supporting my mum through the process. My dad was absolutely horrendous through the whole thing. Even though they were officially divorced it was the sale of their home and other financials that dragged the whole process out. It really depends on your situation and whether both persons are in agreement.,

Have you ever talked about getting a divorce with your oh? What are his feelings? S he likely to cause up a fuss about getting half your pension etc? 

This must be such a difficult time for you Briss. We are all here for you and support whatever you decide. Xxx


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## Jazzbird

Ps but don't let the difficulty of divorce stop you. Better to suffer a year of stress than have it hanging over your head indefinitely. Besides perhaps there is a nice guy with great swimmers who is up for lots of bd around the corner. But you won't find him whilst investing your time and energy with your oh. A friend of mine tried with her hubby for 2 years to get pregnant. He eventually ended the marriage just after they bought a house. She was 37 then. A year later she had met someone else, got married and conceived on her honeymoon. Turns out her oh was probably the one stopping then from conceiving.


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## Juniperjules

Briss, just to play devils advocate here. Do you think ur DH is an alcoholic? Bcos from wot u say about him it kinda sounds to me like he could be. and keep in mind that u dont have to be a vagrant on the street to be an alcoholic. in fact id reckon half the population is probably alcohol dependant, but its dressed up as 'oh i like a couple of beers/ wines/ vodkas to relax at the end of the day'. 

if he IS alcohol dependant then that's not the same thing as being an arse of a partner.... Although it does look and feel like the same thing.

From wot u say, He seems to drink all the time. Even when he knows that it will be detrimental to things in his life. And if he is an alcoholic, knowing that he shouldn't drink, won't stop him doing it. 

I work with alcoholics, & my dad is an alcoholic, so I speak from experience here. An alcoholics behaviours present as selfish, thoughtless, heartbreaking a lot of the time. It doesn't make them horrible bad people (well unless they are violent & abusive with it of course). But it does make them a person with an addiction, an illness. Even if he knows he shouldn't drink with every fibre of his being, it won't stop him doing it. It's not a switch u can turn off that easily. It's a physiological change in the brain. And if he is an alcoholic then that is how he deals with things in life, problems, stressors etc.

I'm NOT making excuses for him. An alcoholic is bloody hard to live with- i know it. my dad is a great dad, but his drinking has not being easy on my family. You know ur DH, & u will know if he does have a drinking problem. If he doesn't, and he is just being an insensitive prick who doesn't care about IVF or having a baby- then you will know that too. But if he is alcohol dependant, then u need to look at the bigger picture. How much do u love him? Would the drinking still be a problem if u werent ttc and doing IVF? Bcos if u do still love him, and know that he is more than this person who is drinking too much AND know that he has a problem... Then u need to think this through very carefully. 

I'm not advocating that u or anyone else stay in a relationship that makes u unhappy, or that u stay with someone who treats u poorly or who you feel doesn't love you, or vice versa. Or if you feel that things are broken beyond repair. But if he does have an alcohol problem, & u still love him & part of you wants things to work, then walking away won't necessarily be the answer. 

If what you really want is to stop IVF & get a divorce, then you should do it. But keep in mind that right now you are in the middle of something huge. You are anxious & nervous about all of it. Please don't act impulsively.


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## Blythe

Briss said:


> I am having doubts, with DH drinking daily I am not sure I want to go on with IVF :( Apparently it's so tricky to get divorced, I have to go through court?? I thought you can just sign something in the registry office and be done with. I was really hoping he is going to play fair with IVf and all but it's the same old story; it's never going to change, isn't it? I just do not know how I am going to do this alone but I really do not see what else I can do



get his sperm, get that baby then think about divorce [having said that children can cement relationships]. 

My DH was in the habit of bringing home a bottle of cava of an evening and polishing that off...he still drinks a couple of bottles a week and usually has a few pints as well. I know his SA was ok but i do understand your frustrations re the drinking. He knows how much this means to you and what baffles me is i think the worst thing that could happen to him would be to loose you [based on things i have picked up. So why keep up drinking when he knows the risks???? I gather from what you have said previously that the drinking is part of the working day...this is tricky for him but having said that he should be knocking it on the head for at least these few days. Will it make a difference?...quite possibly not but that is not the point....the point is trying to ensure you are as stress free as possible during this treatment. 

thinking of you :flower:


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## Briss

CD 11

CBFM: HIGH
OPK: 4 pm negative; 7 pm - positive

Scan: 2 dominant follicles; left follicle 18.8 mm (grew 2.8 mm in 1 day); right follicle: 12.6 mm (grew 1.6 mm in 1 day);* ready for egg collection! Blood flow to the left follicle and uterus is very good (the doc was very impressed with the blood flow even said it's perfect so I am thinking I am probably not as old as my stats cos it's down to blood flow isn't it? at least as far as I understood the TCM; the whole point of turning the clock back was to increase the blood flow to reproductive organs because as we age it's getting reduced as body does not think it important anymore leading to menopause; it's also possible that she is just making positive noises to encourage me to think positive); they also noticed some CM - also good; Even though the right follicle is small I was told there is still a chance it has a viable egg. I asked why menopur did not work in making me develop more follicles and was told that it has nothing to do with menopur as it can only help develop follicles that have viable eggs; each cycle is different and it so happened that this cycle I probably only have 1-2 good eggs; the rest vanished because they never meant to be this cycle;

Lining: 10.6 mm; triple layer* - seem less than yesterday but i guess it depends on the way each practitioner measures it; 

Cyst on the right: 25x28x29; roughly the same size as before; still not being affected by the meds; very happy about that 

Bloods:
Estrogen: increased from 1,100 (CD10) to 1,529 - good; 
LH: increased from 6.5 to 16 despite being suppressed - very bad!! I did several OPKs - negative so I was advised to start taking 50 mg Indometacin in order to keep follicles from disintegrating; I did some google search and only found studies on rats... I asked if we should move EC for tomorrow but because my OPK were negative they decided to proceed as planned; I can only hope we wont miss that egg by Wednesday. I know that it's probably my fault, the nervous breakdown I had last night definitely affected my hormones; I repeated my OPK later in the evening and it was positive (4 hours before the trigger shot). i called the clinic's emergency number but they said we will have to risk it as tomorrow the follicle wont be mature enough for EC. Indometacin should help prevent early ovulation but it's not a guarantee. 

Meds:
250 micrograms Ovitrelle - 11 pm trigger shot (originally I was advised to take double dose (500) for some reason even though my BMI is normal but after it appears that my LH increased so much I was advised to take just 250 micrograms Ovitrelle. She told me it's unlikely that Ovitrelle can fail but i can check my monitor tomorrow for LH surge and it should give me a PEAK; I was going to do pregnancy test as well as Ovitrelle gives a false positive that can stay in your system for up to 14 days giving you forse positive (how miserable is this?).
50 mg Indometacin - supposed to start taking this anti inflammatory drug 3 times a day up until egg collection which hopefully going to keep my follicles in place.

Egg Collection CD 13; there is still a risk of early ovulation


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## Briss

Ladies thank you so much for your constant support. it's been such a tough journey and it's not getting any easier. After last night's drama we still decided to proceed with IVF; I am just blocking all my fears and negative thoughts out and visualising his super healthy spermies making their way in despite everything against them; and indeed there is so much against... :( 

Juniper, I think there might be some alcohol dependancy. DH did 3 months off beer just to demonstrate that he is not dependent but I was not convinced. It's really shocking cos when i met him years ago it was impossible to imagine him with a pint. just not the type. I blame the City; before moving to work there he never drank in his life and if he continued his career at Imperial he would still be fine but he wanted money and I cant blame him for that. Unlike his colleagues he was just totally defenseless against this stuff and he still does not know how much he can drink before he gets drunk. I know my norm because I was drinking in my youth but Dh was spending his time more wisely and did not get this experience. He was getting there gradually (over the last 8 years or so) and I did notice it years ago (I also have alcoholics in my family) and i did warn him that he is exposing himself to dependancy on this stuff if he continues but would he listen? I do not think i can live my life with an alcoholic and I do not want my children to have this burden. but I do love him. he woke up in the middle of the night and realised that I was not there; he was so upset with himself and was trying to get me return to our bed but he could not promise that he wont drink ever again :( I spare you the details but make up sex is really great it's like coming back to life :) he says I am not being supportive in helping him quit this stuff because I make scenes and argue and is generally constantly unhappy - that makes him want to drink. I can talk really sweet about him now but when I see him drunk next time I will be in pieces because it's just unbearable. I do not think there is a cure for alcoholics that's the problem. once you get this issue it's always going to be there. What I want is to have children from DH and have a family with him and be able to enjoy a bottle of wine now and again as we used to without the fear that he wont stop drinking until he gets really drunk and will start making ugly scenes. 

Blythe, that's exactly what he says; when I tell him I am going to leave him he cant stop drinking cos he feels like his life is broken beyond repair. He actually also said that he thinks my meds are potentially more harmful for the baby than his beers (he insists it's all natural product) :( tonight his US bosses are over here and drinks are a must; he said he will be trying to find a non alcoholic alternative if possible but that it wont look right career wise :(


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## Jazzbird

Briss - so sorry to hear about oh - really helps to put his behaviour in context. Really would recommend counselling for you both together perhaps with an addiction specialist. 

You are right - people never stop being alcoholics but many manage to abstain long term. It will require a lot of determination, willpower and your oh admitting and facing up to his problems.

As hard as it seems, you can grow closer through this horrible time if you stick together and try to work it out. 

Hugs xxx


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## gingmg

Briss- good luck with EC! I'm so excited for you. As far as DH, I know its hard. I used to have similar problems with my wife, but with lots of hard work on her part, it has gotten better. Focus on all the good that you have right now, and it will slowly become clear what it is that you need for yourself. 
I don't really drink, but if I compare it to smoking, I completly understand how you might do it knowing how bad it is and how many problems its causing. Addiction is aweful.


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## gingmg

How is everyone doing?


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## Juniperjules

Have edited this post bcos my next post makes everything else null & void


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## gingmg

Juniper- sounds like you are good to go for IVF! I had those little seeds before, I totally forgot about them. 

Went to a hot power yoga class today, I haven't felt this good in a long time. Why do I let myself stop going?!?!


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## threebirds

Briss, all the best for EC, keeping my fingers crossed for you :dust:
Get through this first then there will be plenty of time to talk to DH. He might be afraid of failing again and the toll that will take on you. Thinking of you and hoping so much you get to see a bfp v soon hun x


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## Juniperjules

Girls, I can't really believe I'm writing this. But I think it's over with me & my OH. We've had a problem b/w us for over 12 months & today I think I need to accept that we can't stay together anymore. 

We had a fight. He said some thing's that were in anger, but are at the root of our problem. We barely have sex anymore. He has told me over and over that he doesn't know why. That it doesn't matter bcos he loves me so much & can't live without me. But it came up again. Today He kind of yelled at me in a desperate sort of voice that he can't have sex with me anymore, that I should 'get it' that I should 'know' & that he can't help it... And I do know. I've been paranoid and anxious about it for a long time. And it caused us to split for about 4 months last November. I went to London to stay with my sister. To give us both space and time to think. When I left he was crying and telling me he loved me and wanted me to come back, that things would be different & we would start ttc & he desperately wanted a baby. So after 5 weeks I came back. Things were great. He was loving and attentive & happy to be with me. But the sex problem hasn't changed. I nag him about it, but he has continually told me not to worry- that he loves me & still finds me attractive. 

I have had days where especially around Ov where I find myself going into a panic thinking about it all. Bcos obviously at this time its obvious that its a problem. and its right in front of me. 

We have been together 19 yrs in April. He is like my right arm. I cannot picture my life without him. It hasn't been easy, especially this year. I have been Praying that things will work out. Askung him constantly, is this what you want? are you happy? 

And then some days I think to myself, even if I love him this much- can I live the rest of my life with him knowing that he isn't interested in me sexually??? We used to have great amazing sex. I don't know wot happened. I put on weight about 5 yrs ago & I guess that might have been the start of it. But even once I lost the weight things never went back to the way they were. 

As I write this I am completely numb. I have pins and needles all over my body and I feel like I could pass out. 

He asked me to leave the house bcos I was crying & asking a million questions & he was stressing out. He said he wants 4 or 5 days to think. I feel like it's pointless. I feel like he will calm down & tell me he was just upset & everything is ok. But I've heard it so many times now that I don't think I can hear it again. I think he loves me, but isn't attracted to me anymore & that's not gonna change. And he manages to deal with that for a while. But then every now & then it blows up in our faces. 

Today I feel old, barren, & hopeless. After 18 yrs If its over I have nothing to show for it, no children to give it all meaning. Nothing. And I don't think I honestly know how to live without him.


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## gingmg

Juniper- I am so sorry to read this post. I don't even know what to write to you- you are always the one that is great with words. I wish I had magic words to make this all better for you, but I don't. Maybe this is just another very bad fight and not necessarily the end? Only you and him will know that, but maybe don't make any decisions in the height of it. Maybe take a few days to really think about it, sit with it, and weigh it all out? I believe you both love each other very much, but in the end you deserve to be happy. Only you will be able figure out what is going to be the best decision for you. I believe he loves you very much, but you are going to have to decide what you can live with and what you can't. I am so sorry you are hurting right now. ((((((Big hugs))))))))


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## gingmg

Juniper-We are here anytime you need us:)


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## BBbliss

Briss, good luck! I hope you get two golden eggs! And I really hope things change between you and your DH. You'll really need him if you get pregnant, you will be at your most vulnerable and sensitive state. Just make sure he really will be there for you. 

One of the reasons why I really want to start over (TTC again) is because with my other two I had a relationship that was not stable and he was not supportive. He left me when I became pregnant, I took him back but all I did was cry from sadness. I ended up having a high risk pregnancy. Spent a night in the hospital twice, one at 5 months and again at 6. Had to be on bed rest and meds for 3 months due to constant contractions. It was all from stress. It all happened again with the second baby, just like before, he left me then I took him back, but by that time I was severely depressed. It was not easy. 

Your situation is very different then mine was. He seams to really love you and everything might change once you get that BFP. If you trust that he'll be there for you, that's all you need. This is a big deal for both of you, maybe he drinks out of fear of the unknown or even to hide a mild depression. Like, jazzbird said, counseling could be the answer. Support each other and you'll come out of this with a beautiful solid family.


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## BBbliss

Juniper, I'm so sorry, your post brought tears to my eyes. I know it's painful but you must trust the process... Life takes unexpected turns, and it may not look that way at the time but it all happens so that we can have what we really want and deserve. Be it the love and care you need from your DH or the love and care you need from a new and improved romance with someone else. Dnt feel old, you are not old. Invest in yourself, invest in your spirit, take yoga, meditate, read some good inspirational/self help books. Love yourself. One day you'll look back and it'll all make sense. This is only happening so life can fix itself. We all deserve to be happy. Take a deep breath, brace yourself and know: THIS TOO SHALL PASS.


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## Briss

Juniper, I am so sorry you are going through this. I honestly do not think he isn't interested in you sexually. Don't you think it's all TTC related? It's also possible that he finds it hard to get inspires by the same person. Men like novelty in sex and I think it takes something extraordinary for most of them to get it up for the same person for years and years. I am sorry I am saying this but married sex life is no fairy tale, at least not in my experience. I know my DH loves me but the main reason he wanted to go IVF as because this means he does not have to BD!!! when I told him we need to BD on Sunday 3 days before EC, he felt he was cheated by the whole process because he did not expect to BD at all&#8230; how sad is this? but then in my situation DH has low sex drive so he just wont BD at all; if he had high sex drive I think he would be cheating on me as most men do and this helps them to keep up their long term relationship because they manage to get inspiration out there. but they love their wives and do their best to be as discreet as possible. I do not have a magic solution how to have great sex life (from men's perspective) in long term relationship. you can go through dressing up, toys etc ect but it's all going to wear off sooner or later. I think (although I might be wrong) that my sex drive is very similar to men's (I could never understand mum's view of sex (I thought it idealistic) but I could always understand dad's) and if I am honest the main reasons I am not cheating on my DH and not leaving him are (i) I am afraid I will get carried away and fall in love with that other person and this would ruin my marriage; (ii) I am terrified of STD and have irrational fear that all man have them; (iii) no one is actually trying to seduce me &#8211; I mean you can see that none of these are that I do not want to have sex with other people. I do very much so because my DH is not enough for me to get aroused and has not been for years and I say more I get aroused by thinking of men who are not my DH. 10 years ago I was going mad with desire for him by simply thinking about our first kiss for many years it was enough for me to get aroused in seconds but this feeling's gone. I need something else, something new. the only time we have great sex (when I really get aroused by my DH) is after we argue because it's like getting back to life. I do not see it as a problem because I can distinguish in my head between my sex drive and my feelings for DH: I treat them as two separate things. I always knew men cannot sustain their sex drive for the same person over long period of time but I could also see that it does not mean they do not deeply love their long term partner. I think if your DH has a similar issue it's just a question of reconciling the two in his head. He does not have to chose. I've never been to sex counselling but maybe they have some useful tips they can teach your DH? he clearly loves you and he finds it upsetting that his desire for you decreased but I think it's natural (unfortunately!!). maybe he just needs to accept it so he could continue to be happy with you?


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## BBbliss

Briss, very good point!
The problem with intimacy is that if one partner has a very different sex drive and need compared to the other, it creates resentment and feelings of inadequacy one the other. There's no prefect formula. The only perfect formula is one both are comfortable with, be it once a month, once a year or the once a week thing. Happiness is where you find a happy medium. 

I watched this independent movie on Hulu this wknd called "the freebie" and it sums it up pretty well. The couple were extremely happy together not having sex, it's when they tried taking a new approach that things went wrong. I recommend, it's very real.


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## Jazzbird

Juniper - I'm so sorry too. Long term relationships are such hard work. Are you sure though? 20 years is an amazing achievement. I think it would take a miracle for any couples sex life to be fresh and exciting after that length of time. Don't we all just end up really with very deep friendships?! The passion dies eventually. Add to that the TTC stress and that's enough to snuff out any spark. 

Don't make any rash decisions. Spend time apart and then try and go away together. I always find intimacy through spending lots of time with oh. Try to get back to what you first found attractive in one another. Go on a proper date together. 

I'm sure you can salvage this. It's very typical for couples to have breakdowns just as they go for ivf. 

Lots of virtual hugs. We are here for you. Xxxx


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## Blythe

Juniperjules said:


> Girls, I can't really believe I'm writing this. But I think it's over with me & my OH. We've had a problem b/w us for over 12 months & today I think I need to accept that we can't stay together anymore.
> 
> We had a fight. He said some thing's that were in anger, but are at the root of our problem. We barely have sex anymore. He has told me over and over that he doesn't know why. That it doesn't matter bcos he loves me so much & can't live without me. But it came up again. Today He kind of yelled at me in a desperate sort of voice that he can't have sex with me anymore, that I should 'get it' that I should 'know' & that he can't help it... And I do know. I've been paranoid and anxious about it for a long time. And it caused us to split for about 4 months last November. I went to London to stay with my sister. To give us both space and time to think. When I left he was crying and telling me he loved me and wanted me to come back, that things would be different & we would start ttc & he desperately wanted a baby. So after 5 weeks I came back. Things were great. He was loving and attentive & happy to be with me. But the sex problem hasn't changed. I nag him about it, but he has continually told me not to worry- that he loves me & still finds me attractive.
> 
> I have had days where especially around Ov where I find myself going into a panic thinking about it all. Bcos obviously at this time its obvious that its a problem. and its right in front of me.
> 
> We have been together 19 yrs in April. He is like my right arm. I cannot picture my life without him. It hasn't been easy, especially this year. I have been Praying that things will work out. Askung him constantly, is this what you want? are you happy?
> 
> And then some days I think to myself, even if I love him this much- can I live the rest of my life with him knowing that he isn't interested in me sexually??? We used to have great amazing sex. I don't know wot happened. I put on weight about 5 yrs ago & I guess that might have been the start of it. But even once I lost the weight things never went back to the way they were.
> 
> As I write this I am completely numb. I have pins and needles all over my body and I feel like I could pass out.
> 
> He asked me to leave the house bcos I was crying & asking a million questions & he was stressing out. He said he wants 4 or 5 days to think. I feel like it's pointless. I feel like he will calm down & tell me he was just upset & everything is ok. But I've heard it so many times now that I don't think I can hear it again. I think he loves me, but isn't attracted to me anymore & that's not gonna change. And he manages to deal with that for a while. But then every now & then it blows up in our faces.
> 
> Today I feel old, barren, & hopeless. After 18 yrs If its over I have nothing to show for it, no children to give it all meaning. Nothing. And I don't think I honestly know how to live without him.



TTC kills lust, well after a point it does. I can say with some confidence that my DH no longer fancies me...i have to nag him for sex. Thats not right. I have also caught him in the past watching porn in the next room to where i am laying in bed [and up for it!]...so you can imagine my reaction. [I have no issue with porn but rather it was shared or whilst i was out of the house] it was bad enough that his excuse for lack of sex was no energy only to find this! Well, I'm over it now and l often find myself looking at other men so cannot really moan.

Does he fancy you at the moment....Probably not. But thats not totally surprising....Hormonal women who talk about clinical procedures and babies for months on end don't do it for many....I'm not surprised that my DH doesn't initiate sex.

Some things should be left unsaid but when we are at our weakest or just worn down we say things we shouldn't...i have said some terrible things just to press buttons because of my frustration at everything as has he. 

long term relationships go through tuff periods...i haven't really fancied my DH for a couple of years.....but i think i will again so im sticking with...i also want to get the baby first before dumping him [i hope i don't though because for the most part i do love him].

The issue between you could be a bit of the above but if it is a permanent thing im so very sorry. I hope that you are both able to talk through the issues over the next few days and can proceed with IVF.

:hugs:


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## gingmg

All very very good points ladies. Juniper, I am so sorry you are having a tough time. I hope you both are able to work through it. Relationships are tough, but 20 years is quite an accomplishment. If only it stayed romantic and sexy, but I imagine that changes over time. 5 years in and our sex life if already different from the beginning!


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## Juniperjules

Thank you girls for ur replies. I apologise for how long this post is.. I'm venting I guess, I don't know where else to put all these thoughts that are in my head today. I've already talked my mum to death. 

I saw him again last nite bcos I'd left my work uniform and needed it for today. He was sweet, and kissed and hugged me. But he still wanted me to leave and sleep at my mums. It ended in an argument box I started having a meltdown, he got angry and pleaded with me to just leave and stop making things worse. So I did. He then sent texts asking if I got home ok and saying good nite.

Theres something else that i havent mentioned- mostly bcos i don't like to think about it. and strangely even though we are in an anonymous forum it still feels weird saying some things?? Last year when we had a break for 4 months he started seeing someone else. We had started ttc about 5 months b4, and i think the pressure of it all & the lack of sex just became like a timebomb that exploded in October. She was someone he already knew superficially as a friend, but then it became something else. However by January he was telling me this wasn't what he wanted, he loved me too much and he wanted a family with me. That this girl was good fun to hang out with but she wasn't me. That was when I went to London for 5 weeks to give myself some time to figure out what I wanted to do. So I guess part of our problem now is that he knows what it's like to feel that spark again. He might not have wanted to stay with her, but he enjoyed it while he had it. And now we've been back together again for 7 months and maybe the joy of being together again has worn off and he is back to feeling this confusing feeling. Loving me, but wanting those other feelings as well. I guess this is why people get divorced?

Youve all made some really poignant & honest comments about this. And i really appreciate it very much. i try not to be fanciful about it all, its a sad feeling knowing that ur partner isn't sexually interested in you anymore, but ive accepted it recently. i have to admit i have had my moments crying, wishing for those heady days again, the days when i felt like i was all he needed. it kind of makes u feel old & asexual to be in a relationship where the sex is missing now. Sometimes I think 'why am I bothering to put make up on, to do my hair, to wear great clothes- if the person I'm with doesn't notice anymore?' He does still notice at times when I look good, dressed up for a nite out or wearing a particular pair of jeans. but even so, it doesnt make him suddenly want to have sex with me. And I know all the politically correct answers! you look good for yourself not someone else! but seriously? thats a load of crap. Well it is for me anyway. We've been together so long and i don't have anything else to compare to- so the things that you have said especially about ur own relationships are very helpful. Im sure my friends aren't having wild and crazy sex anymore, but i havent asked and i have found it hard to believe that you end up with basically nothing? we could go for 6 or 8 months with no sex. during that time i will nag him, ask him why he isnt interested and it bcomes an argument. usually ending with me crying and him telling me 'don't worry, it'll be ok, it'll probably change- i still think ur sexy and hot, of course i do'.

I have told myself that wot we have can be enough. And that having a baby will add another deeper dimension to our relationship. it will return a feeling of intimacy that i feel is missing now. that something special b/w only the two of us. That eventually all relationships must loose that spark & passion, but as long as you have love then you have the most important thing. I suppose that is what he has told himself too. I honestly really saw a look of pain & desperation in his eyes yesterday when he yelled at me 'i cant have sex with you anymore, i dont know why, i wish i could'.. It reminded me of how he told me last year that he started to feel like he had lost a part of himself, that his sex drive had gone, and it was making him feel miserable. One day recently he even said to me that he didn't understand why this was happening - that if he was out in a pub these days and saw me, he would want still want to meet me and chat me up- that I'm as attractive and sexy now as I was 18yrs ago. But even so, the desire is gone.

So, now I have no choice but to wait and see wot happens next. I'm supposed to be calling the IVF nurse tomoro to sort out when I was to start injecting. How ironic that when were this close its all turning to crap. Typical of my life really. I talked about all my options last nite with my mum. It's safe to say I am completely paralysed with fear at the idea that I'm about to loose my only chance of having a child. I feel sick to my stomach. I know all the examples of using sperm donors, or meeting someone else. But I honestly can't see that happening. If this relationship ends now, I don't see myself being in any fit state to even look at another man for quite a long time. 

I sent him a text early this morning asking him if he will still go thru with the ivf even if he decides its over. He didn't reply. So I just called him and we talked about superficial stuff for a few minutes. I asked if he'd read my text and he said he hadn't got a text. God knows why? But there's crazy stormy weather here at the moment, lines coming done, caravans being lifted off the road by winds etc.. So maybe the mobile signals are up the spout today. So I told him what I'd said. I asked him if he would still do IVF with me, and straight away he said yes. Then he said 'but can't you just get pregnant the normal way? By having sex?' And I replied with 'and who am I gonna find to have sex with me to have a baby? And he replied with 'me' ....WTF!?!?!!!! given the topic of this stupidly long post his reply astounds me! And he said it like it was no big deal? totally mental. He then went on to say how it's so much money to spend etc.. I then said to him that I didn't careless about the money, that if this is my only chance at being a mother then Its worth it. To which he said 'ok'. He was getting ready to get off the phone, and I said to him 'so have you basically decided that its over between us?' And he said 'no! Geez, stop being so stupid! Just relax will you geez'. 

So there it is.. I feel like crap, and I barely slept all night thinking about how I could be losing my only chance at having a child. I love him, but yeh i know that eventually i probably could meet someone else... but i may never get another shot at having a baby. So for now, I will have to take my own advice and look at the bigger picture. We definitely have problems, but I can't stand the idea of a life without a child. If it doesn't happen even with IVF that's different. But I can't cope with the thought of not even getting the chance to try. I kept imagining my sister having a baby in the next few years.. And me knowing that i'll never have that. I know it's dramatic, but it makes me feel like life would be worthless. So for now I guess I give him a few days to relax without me around. I told him I have to call the nurse tomoro about meds. He seemed ok with it. So I guess it's a case of watch this space now. 

Oh and after all this drama.. I spent $200 having acupuncture and getting herbs etc and today I just feel like its a waste of my money. I feel like the IVF is either gonna work or not- all the acupuncture and vile herbs in the world won't make a difference. So now I have 6 bags of herbs that I can't be bothered using anymore!


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## Jazzbird

Awww Juniper - you poor thing. This seems so unfair and so hurtful. But how do you know your OH doesn't have erectile dysfunction? Did he sleep with this woman? Perhaps he found himself going down a similar situation with this other woman. Perhaps he just didn't have the desire for her? Was he testing himself to see if the issue was isolated to you? might not be you at all. It could be a medical problem. It sounds as if he is depressed about it too. 

Whilst I can handle less frequent sex as the relationship ages I too would find it devastating if it dropped to once every six months. Everyone wants to feel desired and loved. So I totally understand where you are coming from. 

But think you do need to work out whether this is a medical problem. He can get help as I think loss of libido is a pretty devastating thing to happen to someone.


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## Jazzbird

Awww Juniper - you poor thing. This seems so unfair and so hurtful. But how do you know your OH doesn't have erectile dysfunction? Did he sleep with this woman? Perhaps he found himself going down a similar situation with this other woman. Perhaps he just didn't have the desire for her? Was he testing himself to see if the issue was isolated to you? might not be you at all. It could be a medical problem. It sounds as if he is depressed about it too. 

Whilst I can handle less frequent sex as the relationship ages I too would find it devastating if it dropped to once every six months. Everyone wants to feel desired and loved. So I totally understand where you are coming from. 

But think you do need to work out whether this is a medical problem. He can get help as I think loss of libido is a pretty devastating thing to happen to someone.


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## Jazzbird

Sorry for double posting ... On a train!


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## Juniperjules

Jazzbird, I don't think it's a medical problem. He was having sex with the other person. He hates talking about it, but they were definitely having sex. it came up in an emotional conversation about 4 months ago. I said to him 'well u could obviously have sex with her?', so why do u want to stay with me when ur not interested with me. And his answer was 'its not all about sex!'.i know that he has convinced himself that he loves me so much that he can't leave me. It's unimaginable. He's said it to me. That he can never leave me. But that is where I end up feeling stuck b/w two situations. Staying with him bcos in the long run love is what matters, or ending things which would be incredibly hard for either of us to do, bcos if the sex is gone then how can it be a real relationship?? I'm constantly switching back and forth trying to figure out which is the better/worse option. 

And I can see that probably what will happen now is we'll have a break from each other for a few days, then he'll hug & kiss me & move on like it never happened. But it's always in the back of my mind lingering, worrying. 

My mum has said that she thinks that over the past couple of years that he is having some kind of a mid life crisis. that bcos he has no children to focus on, nothing in his life with any real meaning, no family. very much alone apart from me, and that she thinks / hopes that having a child will be so huge for him that it will knock some sense into him. give him something else to focus on- rather than being so ego-centric with only his own life & emotions to consider (well apart from mine of course). That he has never had any real responsibility or attachments & a child will be something innocent & dependant that actually needs him. 

I'm starting to ramble. I'm still up in the air. I don't think we can fix the sex thing. It's a matter of whether we are both prepared to keep going & have a child & see what happens with no guarantees. But then who does have guarantees in relationships??


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## Jazzbird

Sooooo tricky Blythe. I can't imagine how much it must have hurt to know he was with someone else. But something went wrong otherwise he would still be there. 

I'm not sure if I could stay in a relationship like that. Not really because of the act itself but the meaning behind it. Feeling loved, desired. 

Controversial suggestion - have you both considered a s?x therapist? Might help to have an expert try to unravel what is going on with him. 

A friend of mine left her husband late 40s for the exact same reason and he just said he didn't want to do it anymore. But he met and slept with someone soon after. He married her but I think his new relationship is still abstinent. Just because oh was able to enjoy it for a brief period with someone new doesn't mean that after a few months the same problems will happen. 

As for the lady she met and married someone new and has a good physical relationship but she says her heart is still with her ex. 

You've been together 20 years. Many children are brought into the world with a much less stable foundation. You obviously love him - but would you both prepared to carry on in a marriage without intimacy - would he?

Would he allow you to have an open relationship? Not that I'm suggesting you should do this but I wonder how the thought of you going elsewhere would affect him?


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## gingmg

Juniper- I think your mom might be right about the crisis stuff. Sterotypically, the average lesbian relationship lasts about 5-7 years. I've always wondered if that's because the excitment dwindles and most couples didn't have children to hold them together?! Not the same thing I know, but I've always wondered.
I've also always wondered if these kinds of things happen because men hit their sexual peak at 18, and women not till mid 30s. Seems kinda unfair. My wife and I have always joked about this, that at least we are on the same time line.
I am so sorry you are struggling right now. This must be so hard. It sounds clear he loves you and you love him. I hope you are able to resolve this and move forward with IVF.


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## Briss

CD 13

Temp: raised, was concerned about early ovulation; asked to do a scan before EC - left follicle was in place. I am now questioning my temp method and all other ovulation symptoms as I felt very strongly that I already ovulated; everything pointed towards it and that's exactly how I usually feel the next day after O. I was so sure we missed the egg and when it turned out that I had not ovulated yet I started wondering whether we BD too early when we TTC naturally. the doc said the temp is not reliable but they do trust OPK. I guess I was supposed to O later today naturally. 

EC: Left follicle: very straightforward; egg came off straight away; right follicle: too close to the cyst and very small - decided not to take the risk of puncturing the cyst and not attempt collecting an egg from the right follicle; DH was very disappointed as it seems all this trouble with daily injections of menopur - all for nothing but I am pleased they did not take the risk. sedation was fine, they injected some painkillers which felt like morphine :) and made me want to smile and then I fell asleep; they woke me up about 10 min after I even managed to have a dream. did not feel a thing. There was a bit of pain near the cervix; no bleeding following the procedure; 

SA/ICSI: unfortunately as i expected the beer did its job and we ended up with poor sample: 5.5 million; 27% motility and only 1% morphology so there was no other option but to do ICSI; the embryologist said that even if DH's sample was of better quality they would still recommend doing ICSI in our case because if his previous SA which were never good enough. the chances of fertilisation are about 70%. They called me later on to tell me that the egg was mature and all is well; they managed to proceed with ICSI; 

ET: the next important point is tomorrow: the egg is supposed to (i) fertilise and (ii) divide into two sells. if all goes well then on friday morning they will check if the egg is divided into further 3-5 sells (about 90%) and if so they will call me in for transfer; if not then there is no point in doing the transfer as something is not right with the embryo. As I have only one egg they prefer to transfer 2 day embryo as they believe it has better chances of developing inside my uterus than in a lab. 

Meds: 
7 am: 50 mg Indometacin (trying to keep the egg in place and avoid early ovulation)
after Egg Collection:
Cyclogest 2x400 mg (Progesterone): two options vaginally or rectally. I personally would probably go for rectally as I do not want anything to interfere with my vaginal flora so it's good to go for natural TTC next cycle if things do not work out. 
Clexane 20 mg/0.2ml: just as I thought I am done with injections, they make me do blood thinning injections daily for the next 2 weeks!!!! starting from tonight. I honestly did not see it coming.


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## Briss

Juniper, I actually feel more positive about your relationship after your today's post. Your DH clearly loves you very much. you have to agree that you can be a handful for him sometimes so I guess that's why he asks for some space. this is totally fine, men need that. just give him time and space and he will come back. Whether you want to continue the relationship where you wont be getting lots of sex is a hard question to answer. I personally would be happy to stay with my DH (less the drinking though) even though I know if he could get his way we would have sex once every other month (if any). I love sex but then I am quite self sufficient .... still it's a sacrifice. I agree with your DH - 'its not all about sex!' and I also agree with your mum it can be a mid life crisis and it could have been much worse. 

Jazzbird, I think sex and intimacy are not the same thing. there can be intimacy in sexless relationship as we get old we are all going to end up in sexless relationship (in our 70s? maybe) but hopefully the intimacy will stay.


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## Blythe

Briss. I agree re your last point.

So happy they got your egg out safe and well. I will be awaiting your updates with excitement. :)


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## Briss

Blythe, thanks. I asked about my other follicle but they said if it has an egg it's most likely going to disintegrate on its own although there is a small chance it will be released later but we cant BD now so it will get lost :( I am very upset about DH's sperm, it got so much worse in the last few weeks as if he did it on purpose.


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## Blythe

What was his last sperm count like and when did he do that one?


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## BBbliss

Briss, what a big day you had! All you need is one great egg and with ICSI you will be fine. Your DHs numbers are similar to mine. It's frustrating and I'm trying a cocktail of sups to try to fix it before IVF. We have 0%morth :(

Good luck with the transfer!


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## Briss

3 weeks ago it was 7 mil, normal motility and 3% morphology, but he's been drinking every day since this test and refused to take any vitamins so morphology went down to 1%


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## Juniperjules

Briss, wow ur updates are fantastic- so detailed. I don't know how u remember it all. I couldn't even remember clearly wot the TCM guy had said to me minutes after he said it to me! I used to have a good memory but nowadays details allude me frequently.. Stress related I'm sure. Sorry to hear about DH's sperm. I've got all fingers & toes crossed that ur embryo continues to progess in a positive direction. Amazing to think you'll be PUPO very soon! It seems to have happened so quickly. Best of luck for the transfer. And thank you for ur posts about my situation. Everyone's candid replies have really helped me try & stand back a little and try not to be quite so emotional & black & white in my thinking about everything. 

I know some of the current problems stem from the fact that I am a thinker. I analyse everything.. And I think i have been making OH feel smothered. i see it as ok to be around each other quite alot, & it settles my anxieties- esp now with the ivf. but i think its too much for him. esp when we end up arguing. i dont behave like a psycho in any other part of my life- but with him... well i do more than i care to admit. He is usually very placid and accepting of this characteristic in me. But maybe I pushed him too far. He did yell at me on Tuesday that if I didn't stop I was going to hear things I didn't want to hear bcos I was making him so angry that he'd say things he didn't really mean. 

Jazzbird, no he wouldn't be ok with an open relationship. I've asked a few times to see wot he'd say. I'd never be ok with it anyway. But his answer has always been 'don't be ridiculous' or something to that effect. I would go to a sex therapist, but he wouldn't. Trust me, I would never have guessed that I'd stay in a relationship with no sex- but in reality it's easier said than done to decide its over. Or maybe for some people it is an easier decision than it is for me? It was great for probably 14-15 yrs b4 it changed. So by then unless u hate each other for other reasons it bcomes hard to walk away. 

Its his birthday today. but he doesnt really care about birthdays. i do however. so I asked him if we would see each other... & he hesitated & then said 'hmmm, no- a few days remember'. i DO NOT get this attitude. its making me nuts with frustration. but im just accepting it rather than cause another fight. i asked him after that if he was sure he really wanted to do ivf & he's still saying yes. I'm so confused by his incongruent statements & behaviour. But ill just have to stew on it. Ill go ahead & sort out dates etc with the nurse. And then ill still have till end of next week to confirm in my own mind if this is going to happen. 

I feel like I've hijacked this thread. But ur replies are so great & then I want to respond to things you've said! I hope ur all plodding along ok. 

Hope we get some good news in this thread soon! Something to brighten things up a little! ; )


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## Briss

Juniper, I am so sad - I write everything down &#8230; I cant rely on my memory at all, I keep diaries of everything important. I am thinking of writing down everything my DH does or says cos when we argue I can never recall all the things he did so I could properly reproach him. on the other hand I think we are still together because of my poor memory I just do not remember most of what I suffered from him 

actually when you shared some of the details of your arguments with your DH I always thought that he was very calm and patient and tried to do the right thing to ensure things do not fall apart between you two &#8211; admirable I think, great quality in a man, so if I were you I'd definitely stick with him sex or no sex. also 14-15 yrs is a massive achievement! and stop asking him if he really wanted to do ivf, he said yes, are you trying to bring him to a point where he is going to say no? My DH hates birthdays too, it's strange but it happens


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## Briss

Day 1 post EC: fertilisation occurred! :happydance::happydance: :happydance:

I do not need to tell you how thrilled I am. I feel like I love that little embryo already and wish I could hug it! I know most people, when going through IVF, are more worried about implantation and what happens in TWW. My concern has always been what happens before the transfer. I doubted my DH's sperm is capable of fertilising anything, I do not know why I thought so but I did. I am very happy that I was proved wrong and that at least we passed this stage. The next stage is anxiously waiting for the egg to start dividing. At the moment it's still one sell, it has two parts: my and DH's but only now it is going to start dividing into more sells. They gave us about 90% chance. We wont know if it happened until tomorrow but they told me to be prepared to come for ET tomorrow with full bladder. 

TMI: it might have been a mistake to insert progesterone in my back pas-ge; I constantly feel like I want to go the good news is that it seems to be working as my temp has gone up quite nicely this morning. 

These blood thinning injections are so painful! Was bleeding last night;


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## Juniperjules

Yay go go go little embie!!! That's fantastic Briss!! Really good news. How is ur DH reacting to all this?? Is he excited too, now that his end of the deal is done? ; ) gosh uve done so well you know, you seem to have breezed thru this pretty well- I'm impressed. Things are looking promising! Can't believe ur almost at the transfer stage!! 

And u have got me spot on my dear!!!! My mother has also told me tonite to stop asking OH if he's sure he wants to do IVF! Its like a compulsion now to want him to say hes ok with it bcos im scared of getting to the end of next week & then having him say 'actually no i cant do this. Mum said the same as you 'what are u doing? Pushing him until the day he says no?'. It's me being insecure is what it is. With all this crap this week I'm on high anxiety alert... I'm waiting for everything bad to happen that could happen. I kind of hate him a little right now for making me more stressed. But I can't control him. Sadly he has a mind of his own ; ) 

How is everyone else doing? Anyone else in the tww??


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## Briss

Juniper, I totally understand re being insecure, I think most of our issues with Dh is cos I was not sure if he really loved me (cos if he did why would he be doing the wrong thing all the time!) and this insecurity makes me see the worst and act accordingly but it's so damaging to our relationship.


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## Blythe

Briss - the news could not be better at this stage. I am truly excited for you and it would be great to get that egg on place for the weekend so you can flop on the couch and relax

JJ - I hope you are ok:flower: I was thinking of some of my past fall outs/break ups and have always pushed it. I hate things hanging and it's like handing all your power over. I have always pushed DH for a decision on whether he wanted to finish it, in fact urged him to do that. In my mind I thought him making the decision would empower me to take action. Of course once the anger has gone we work it out. 

Letting go and letting him think will make him love you even more. I'm sure


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## Jazzbird

Yaaaaaay Briss! We are all rooting for you. Would be so nice to have a happy ending on this thread. It's just so exciting. 

Juniper - I didn't mean to sound like I would leave if there was no intimacy - I completely get your dilemma. I was just empathising with your situ. I still think you have a wonderful relationship and would definitely try and salvage it. Successful marriages apparently are not based on compatibility or even argument frequency but a willingness to hold in through rough and stormy seas. You will find a way through. Leave him be and let him come back to you. He will. Use the time to think about what terms he should agree to.


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## BBbliss

Briss,what great news!!! This is so exciting and you are an angel for sharing your daily steps with us. I feel this is "our" baby hehe, I really really want everything to be a success or you. 

Juniper, it does sound like your DH Really loves you and is committed to staying married. I'm sure you'll work it out. I also think he has a libido/ED problem he's not dealing with, the other woman prob just provided a temporary excitement that wore off. I also think you are too young to give up sex, these should be the best years of your life right now, specially after investing two decades of your life with someone. Like I said before, invest in your spirit so you can find clarity to act and use love and wisdom when you speak with him. Focus on yourself now and it will all fall in place for you both. Sex is NOT everything, but you still have a few good years ahead of you and so does he! 

AFM, I'm 11dpo today, temp went up just a hair, but as you know it's almost impossible for me this month with zero morth :( I should know soon... My LP is usually 12d I'm just sad I feel I wasted a clomid cycle for nothing


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## Jazzbird

Juniper I'm in 2ww. 13dpo today. Took a test yesterday bfn. No cramping this month but I've been running to catch the train every day. In tcm cramping is a symptom of liver qi stagnation - basically blocked energy in the liver channel that runs through uterus and boobs and the solution is more regular exercise. So I guess my tardiness has paid off. I'm so lazy unless I have a deadline! 

Af should arrive tmrw or sat just in time for MIL arrival. Can't wait. Just after another failed cycle she will start asking me how old I'm going to be. She's asked me 2 times sale easy this year. Arggggh! And off to her granddaughters first birthday sun. Next weekend my nieces birthday. 

I'm destined to be a sad old aunt with a cat that's not even mine!


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## Jazzbird

AF arrived. At least it'll be less cramps by the time I have to see family etc.


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## BBbliss

Jazzbird, that sucks... Mine is Saturday and I'm not looking forward to it. It's depressing really... I always have cramps and O pain and after you pointed out why it really makes sence. I've cut down a lot of my excise these past months. Maybe I should go back to running then.


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## Jazzbird

Well running long distances isn't good for fertility because it wears out kidney energy. But gentle exercise like brisk walking and swimming or yoga is very good. I think it's good to have the blood pumping but not where you are doing high impact exercise. Going up flights of stairs fairly quickly would be good. 

Lots of women stop their periods if they exercise too much. 

It's nice to have no cramping this time round though. Usually starts a week before. And (tmi alert) blood is more pink rather than brown and a more watery consistency. All seem to indicate my liver qi is running smoothly.


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## gingmg

Didn't have a great response to injectables. Only one egg. On clomid I had three:( Have my IUI on sunday, but already feeling discouraged. I know it only takes one, but I was hoping for a better response.


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## Jazzbird

Gingmg sorry you are feeling low but it does just take one good egg. Keeping our fingers crossed for you!


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## Briss

Jazzbird, I am so sorry about AF :( you are right that at least you did not have cramping. what's your plan for this cycle? are you sticking with the same herbs?

gingmg, I know the feeling, I was also so hoping for at least two eggs but then follicle does not always means you have eggs there and also some may be immature. at least you know that your egg is naturally selected and is the best one this cycle. fingers crossed for your IUI

afm, Had really stressful day at work, was supposed to do 3 days work in one day to cover for my absence and also had to give up a very prestigious business trip to my junior colleague cos if the transfer happens tomorrow I really cant be flying across the globe next week. ended up having a really bad stomach ache, i can barely hold on. really disappointed that i got myself in such a state today, also missed my injections cos was stuck in the office until midnight :( DH is off to a pub :( but I cant really be bothered with that right now, really need to calm down, have a shower and try and get some sleep.


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## BBbliss

Jazzbird, I know what you mean, my DF's ex wife was a professional ballerina and she didn't get AFs that's why he has no kids. I was only running a 5k everyday at my peak and that still took me 45 minutes to run, I can walk as fast as a run , lol do you think that could still be harmful? 

Ging, you must be very frustrated right now, but YES it's on GOOD egg and that is a good thing. Good luck! Let as know how it goes. 

Briss, I'm sorry you had a bad day, you are going thru some very intense days. I hope you get your good night of sleep and wake up refreshed. I'm on a 6 hour dif time zone and I always wake up and check this thread to see how everything is working out for you. Good luck tomorrow!


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## Jazzbird

Hi BBbliss - it really all depends on your constitution. Some people can take high impact exercise others can't. I know I have weak kidney energy because I got so ill. I was working very hard and studying and partying. I took my finals and couldn't sleep properly after that. It went on for 4 years - I eventually found acupuncture and got better after 6 months of treatment. So I know that a lot of exercise is not good for me. But I also know lots of other women who run and train and are very strong. 

You can walk as fast as you run? Wow ... Superwoman! I think just don't go crazy - do enough to feel like the blood is moving but I think just 30 minutes a day is fine. 

Briss - throw a sickie! Forget work if you can. You might be gone anyway in 9 months. Try and focus on your embie! Yes I'm sticking with the herbs - cycles are very good. 29 days and temp rises are better with these herbs. Starting to think maybe operation has affected DH swimmers. So he's reluctantly accepting acupuncture from me


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## BBbliss

Jazzbird, when I said I can walk as fast as I run, it was to illustrate how SLOW I jog! You know, I'm really glad you said that, I feel I'm really getting weaker and out of shape from cutting down on excising, I do feel stronger and healthier when I run(slow jog, hehe). Thank you for your input.


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## Briss

Day 2 post EC: embryo transfer!

Our wonderful embryo divided into 4 perfect sells today with no fragmentation. I was told that's the best we could have hoped for. I do not know if that's true i think they try to make everyone feel positive about their embryos but I am grateful. I am completely in love with our embryo :) it's amazing to think I may have a new life inside of me.

The transfer was very straightforward and I could not feel much at all. it took about 2 min but there was about 10 min preparation time, they inserted a larger catheter through the cervix and then embryologist came in with a smaller catheter containing the embryo that went into the larger catheter. i even have a picture of a small cloud with the embryo (cant see it though) and liquid being injected into my uterus. There have been about 3 hour wait though but that's not the worst part. Full bladder - that's the challenge! I was failing miserably on this front, had to empty my bladder twice before I reached the transfer, 20 min in there seemed like ages cos I just could not hold it in. I can deal with pain but I completely cant deal with peeing deprivation. I had to pee about 10 min after the ET :( not ideal but they said it's completely fine, I am still scarred by this experience and cant stop peeing at home... 

it's going to take a few days for the embryo to grow and further divide and then hopefully it will start implanting into my lining. I am due for pregnancy blood test on 16 Oct. In the meantime I carry on with Cyclogest 2x400 mg (Progesterone) and Clexane 20 mg/0.2ml. I took today and Monday off, am going to pumper myself and take it easy and now have no regrets about missing out on the business trip, I think it's very likely that we have now come closer to achieving a pregnancy than ever before. I cant stop smiling. 

I have to say that natural IVF is very manageable and I think I can even do it every cycle but probably best to have it every 2-3 cycles so the body could recover its hormonal balance. I would be very interested to discuss menopur and other stimulation meds as it might be that we should just go completely natural with no stimulation. Having just one egg is risky but than you cant transfer more than two anyway and freezing is not the best way I think. 

It would have been nice to have DH with me for ET but he could not take any more time off. 

At Create things are very low key and at times they seem not very organised but every one was very friendly and positive. There are not many patients so you get almost individual attention. They are always available on the phone (once you are in they give you their emergency numbers and there is always smb there) and respond to your questions and concerns.


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## Jazzbird

Briss - thrilled for you. Relax and imagine that glowing embryo growing and implanting. Soooo exciting! Xxx


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## Blythe

Briss. This could not have gone better. I will be thinking of you and Keeping everything crossed for you. :flower:


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## Blythe

Jazzbird. I'm sorry for AF. How are you?


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## BBbliss

Briss!!! Yay! Smiling is good, keep smiling :)

All good news today :)


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## Jazzbird

Thanks Blythe. I'm ok thanks - feeling a bit down but not too bad. Lady I met at work today who had ivf to have her baby boy suggested I should start ivf ASAP. She told me not to wait. Made me wonder at what point I would decide. 

We're 9 months into trying now although at least 2 of those it wasn't possible. 

It is starting to feel like we may have a problem. 

When would you guys switch to ivf? I'm going to be 37 in nov.


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## gingmg

Briss wonderful news!!!

Jazzbird- I'm the same as you, except that my whole journey has been IUIs. This will be 9. I think we will do one more IUI then go to Ivf. I don't know if we are jumping the gun, but 9 IUIs is a lot and if it hasnt happened this way, don't know that it will. Hopefully they will up my doses next time. Going to a hypnotist tomorrow for the smoking. Maybe you should make an appointment to just get checked out and see what they recommend? It's hard to know when to seek help, but it can't hurt to make an appointment?


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## Juniperjules

Briss! Congratulations on being PUPO! : ) sounds like it all went well. Now u have to take care of yourself to the detriment of everything else! This is your time... Even if ur DH drinks, just let it wash over you for now. Plenty of time for any concerns in the future. You have done amazingly well.
I'm catholic, and my mum bought me a little wallet card with a prayer & a holy medal for St Gerard that u keep in ur purse. He is the patron saint of mothers. I'm a hopeless lapsed catholic but it still means something to me. And mum keeps reminding me to use it! And I usually forget! Hopeless! Luckily she's saying it for me anyway ; ) but today I've pulled it out of my purse & read it quietly to myself for good luck for and ur embie... (Hope u don't mind- I know some people feel funny about stuff like that!)... I'm praying this is a happy ending, you deserve it


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## BBbliss

Juniper that's so nice :)
I'm praying for the little one too


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## Juniperjules

AFM... Am sick of talking about my situation this week. But update as follows:
Saw OH last night as had planned to meet a friend at his gig for dinner- Had spoken to him earlier in day, he was hungover (drinks with boys for his birthday), tired, & had a headache. At the pub he seemed ok, if a little subdued. Later in the nite he and I went to buy a pizza for him & sat in the car while he ate it talking. 

I kept it light, but he did open up some. He said he was shitty with me bcos I went mental on Tuesday- he used the words 'you went off your head'. And in hindsight yes I did. I think he is still feeing annoyed, but he was trying to be nice & using pet names etc which is usually a sign that things are mostly ok. 

I drove back late and stayed at my parents place bcos it's close to my work & I was starting at 7am, I do this often on weekends.. Ill stay Saturday nite too, and probably see him Sunday evening. By then a bit more time will have passed- I'm trying to give him some space. I feel calmer now that he was able to speak to me about it. 

I rang my IVF nurse & have an appointment to see her on Friday to pick up meds. Am supposed to be having acupuncture again on Monday... I haven't even used the herbs he gave me last week. So now I am thinking of cancelling. Am undecided. Right now it feels like it's just more money flying out of my hands.. & when I'm about to hand over my first $5k on Friday... Well the TCM is just feeling like more cash. 

Today am generally feeling ok. Anxiety way down. Some optimism. Hoping it stays this way!


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## Jazzbird

Gingmg - I completely understand why you have moved to ivf. Iui is expensive and I'm not sure what the stats are. You want to give yourself the best chance so it makes sense to move to ivf. I have no idea what we will do. It does feel a little premature for us but at the same time time is ticking on. Had a chat with oh about it and he feels we are jumping the gun ... Thinks we should reassess in 3 months when it's been a full year. 

Juniper - so glad you are able to get some space. I know he instigated it but I feel that you too need to rest away from him. And when you pull away too he'll come running.


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## Juniperjules

Jazzbird said:


> Thanks Blythe. I'm ok thanks - feeling a bit down but not too bad. Lady I met at work today who had ivf to have her baby boy suggested I should start ivf ASAP. She told me not to wait. Made me wonder at what point I would decide.
> 
> We're 9 months into trying now although at least 2 of those it wasn't possible.
> 
> It is starting to feel like we may have a problem.
> 
> When would you guys switch to ivf? I'm going to be 37 in nov.

Jazzbird, I think the difficulty with deciding to move forward into IVF is that it is such a personal thing. And the timelines for what is right is different for everyone. Putting aside all the dramas ive had this week, Sometimes I feel like we've jumped into IVF quickly- and wonder should we have tried IUI first. But I decided to defer to my FS's expertise on this. I decided with her reputation of getting girls pregnant that her advice was wot I would go with. if I was even 5 years younger I probably would have waited longer. But I'm 39 in December and I'm scared to waste any more time. Maybe I shouldn't, but I'm fixated on the number 40, and so I feel that if I'm ever gonna end up doing IVF, then I should do it now, sooner rather than later. My FS also told me that it would be better to start now, bcos once I get to 40, statistically it does change quite dramatically- although she emphasised that it IS still totally possible to get pregnant after 40. 

I guess it depends largely on where you are in your thinking. Are you at the stage where you are beginning to worry about this alot? Are you starting to feel panicked about it? You are 36 right? So you do have a bit of time up your sleeve still. having said that, there's nothing to stop you seeing a FS and exploring your options and seeing what they do/don't suggest. 

I'm beginning to think that even when you have waited a while, most girls still will wonder if they are jumping into IVF too quickly.- bcos lets face it, it does feel like a huge deal. But I think doubts go hand in hand with deciding to go ahead with it. Only you will know when it's right for you.


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## Jazzbird

Thanks Juniper. You make a lot of sense. I'm 37 in nov. I know I still have some time - we always said we wanted 2 but I guess as the years go by that becomes less likely. I feel so silly for putting it off the last few years but I can't change that now. 

Perhaps the lady who advised me to go for ivf has such conviction because she tried 3 years prior. I think if I reached the 2 year mark I would definitely do ivf. 

My MIL is due to visit today - she keeps asking me how old I'm going to be this nov and I'm fairly sure it's s back handed warning to me about my fertility but I really dread those questions. Off to her granddaughters 1 birthday tomorrow. That'll be hard too. 

I'm sure I'll pick up in the next few days. AF always a but tough to handle.

Hugs to all the ladies on this forum. Don't know how I'd get through it sometimes without your support. 

And I'm still super excited for you Briss and Juniper - all your updates are lovely to read! Xxx


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## Briss

Juniper, thank you! that's so sweet of you! i am glad things are working out with your OH. are you doing full on IVF? have they done the scan? it's so exciting, please do share your ivf journey. 

Jazzbird, IVF was a very difficult decision for us and it took me 2 years to accept it. I needed to be sure we've done all we could and that there is no other way. even then I felt very uncomfortable when we started the process. I think your DH is right you may want to TTC naturally for a little while longer before going for IVF


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## gingmg

I'm a nurse, I take care of children. I was taking care of a little girl this week whose mom got pregnant with her accidently at 47. I can't on purpose get pregnant at 35, but it did give me hope that there are many years left in this journey.

Jazzbird- I think your plan sounds good.

JuniperJules- Glad you are feeling a little better. This can't be easy, but it is crystal clear that you both love each other and are committed to making this work. I know I can say things out of anger when pushed as well, even things I don't really mean. I'm glad this is on the mend for you and that you are moving forward with IVF. There is an IVF success thread I read through on AC, and it gave me so much hope. Kinda made me want to skip these last two IUIs and move along, but I'll stick to plan we we already set.

BBbliss and Blythe- Hope you are both doing ok.


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## BBbliss

Juniperjules, i agree with ging. You relationship is not over, you still have a chance, as long as there's love and respect there's always a light at the end of that tunnel. 

On IVF. I agree everyone has their path, I'm 44 next month and I still don't think I have exhausted all my possibilities yet. Thank you for sharing that story ging... It can happen and I'm an optimist, speaking of which, I'm 13dpo today and no sign of AF. My LP has been 12/13d we all know my chances are slim And still I believe :)

Blythe, how are you doing?

Ging, don't lose hope you still have time. 

Today I woke up to a text from my dear sister, who is 37, with a picture of her BFP test. I'm soooo happy I'm going to be an aunt!!!! It makes me cry I'm so happy for her. She had an eptopic in may so she's a bit worried. I know she a d baby will be fine :)

Briss, I hope you are having a relaxing beautiful wknd. Give yourself a big big hug :)


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## Blythe

Jazzbird. Please hang on in there my love. Get what checks you can on the nhs to reassure yourselves and then keep BDing. When it comes to a year reconsider your options. Those herbs sound like there are doing good stuff. Just keep positive x


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## Briss

TMI I had a tiny bit of brown spotting today when I wiped :( I never ever spot in the middle of TWW, may be progesterone is not working but either way it's not a good sign. am trying not to cry. it was supposed to reach blastocyst stage tomorrow and start implanting... I did have a bit of cramping yesterday but i was trying to stay in bed most of the day


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## gingmg

Briss maybe its implantation bleeding?


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## Juniperjules

Briss, take a deep breath... brown blood means old blood. Easy to say but try not to worry yet. It could simply be left over from everything that has been done this week. the egg collection is a kind of traumatic event- they pierce through the vagina wall to get to the ovaries- so that has to cause some trauma to the surrounding tissues which might have bled a few days back but only now worked its way 'out'. And then transfer is also a foreign object going where foreign objects shouldn't go!!! I would definitely not automatically assume it is something negative. I've had twitter friends recently who have had full on bleeds in the IVF tww who still get a bfp. 

Try not to assume the worst, bcos you'll make urself sick with worry. I'm sure it's nothing to worry about yet. It's still very early days for it to be something negative. 

Sending you hugs X


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## BBbliss

Briss, please don't worry, anytime you go thru the cervix for any procedure you can spot, my obgyn always tells me that. I hope you are feeling better


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## Briss

ladies thank you very much for your support. I am trying my best to stay positive but kinda failing, DH saw me upset and immediately went out, i can only guess he went for a beer :( he cant deal with me being upset. I was so happy last couple of days smiling and talking to my embryo and I could see it made him happy. I think it's just too early for implantation but I still hope. I did not have any bleeding following EC and they told me I should expect a bit of bleeding so may be this is it? I also feel my cervix is not right it feels like during AF not like in TWW. usually in TWW I do not feel anything around cervix but now I feel like AF is very close. very mild cramping is almost constantly there :( trying to reach the clinic, left voicemail, waiting for them to call me, maybe I need to increase my progesterone? 

I could not help it and tested, very faint positive (DH could not see anything but I could), I know it's a false positive following the trigger (no idea how long it will take to get the trigger shot out of my system) I guess I was trying to cheer myself up (although I knew so early after the trigger it should be positive) now just feel confused. at least i know it's not out of my system yet


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## Briss

i called the clinic and they said it's not necessarily bad news yet but advised that I take it easy and increase progesterone to every 8 hours. 

constipation is killing me, my tummy looks like I am at least 6 months pregnant but prunes definitely started working today finally! 

apparently spotting and constipation are effects of progesterone https://www.livestrong.com/article/...-of-progesterone-suppositories/#ixzz2gwwKyAmR I am hoping that's what it is. feeling a little more hopeful but mild cramping is there. I am off tomorrow and determined to completely relax and forget about work and everything.


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## Briss

Juniper, this is something to consider for your IVF. I had no idea the success of IVF is determined by how ET is performed. so you may want to look into success rates of particular doctors in your clinic to chose the right one to maximise your chances. 

A fellow B&B member just had unsuccessful IVf following a rather traumatic ET which was probably the reason cos she had a fantastic embryo. 

https://womenshealthandfertility.blogspot.co.uk/2009/11/bleeding-after-embryo-transfer.html


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## Jazzbird

Briss - cant imagine how hard it is symptom spotting but all you can do is try to relax and wait it out. So hard. Can I suggest getting a good box set? Homeland, dexter, walking dead, breaking bad, mad men? All these are fairly gripping and you can just watch one after the other whilst resting. Keep those feet up, eat well and try to ignore your symptoms. Xxx


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## threebirds

Thinking of you Briss & sending you lots of hope. Hang in there xx


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## gingmg

Oh, just started breaking bad today, already hooked!


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## BBbliss

I hope everyone is having a good weekend. I'm officially one day late today. Not a glimpse of AF.


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## Briss

BBbliss, fingers crossed this is good news!! praying AF stays away.


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## Jazzbird

Fingers crossed BBbliss!


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## Blythe

BBbliss said:


> Juniperjules, i agree with ging. You relationship is not over, you still have a chance, as long as there's love and respect there's always a light at the end of that tunnel.
> 
> On IVF. I agree everyone has their path, I'm 44 next month and I still don't think I have exhausted all my possibilities yet. Thank you for sharing that story ging... It can happen and I'm an optimist, speaking of which, I'm 13dpo today and no sign of AF. My LP has been 12/13d we all know my chances are slim And still I believe :)
> 
> Blythe, how are you doing?
> 
> Ging, don't lose hope you still have time.
> 
> Today I woke up to a text from my dear sister, who is 37, with a picture of her BFP test. I'm soooo happy I'm going to be an aunt!!!! It makes me cry I'm so happy for her. She had an eptopic in may so she's a bit worried. I know she a d baby will be fine :)
> 
> Briss, I hope you are having a relaxing beautiful wknd. Give yourself a big big hug :)


Hi BBBliss - i hope you are ok....i see you are late...i so hope this is it for you. are you going to test again? any symptoms that are out of the ordinary? 

im ok...its been good not temping/opking everyday and it has reduced stress but i cannot say i don't think/read about it everyday...that bit i cannot stop. i am due to ovulate sometime this week so will try and get some BDing in. 

fingers and everything else crossed for you :flower:


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## Blythe

Briss - how are you doing? How are you getting on with the increased prog...any noticeable effects?

i hope you are feeling ok about it all and not worrying yourself too much :flower:


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## Briss

Blythe, progesterone was giving me very noticeable side effects even on lower doses: my breasts are impossible to touch, so sensitive and it started almost the next days after I started taking it even before ET. constipation is another one, I cant look at prunes anymore but that's the only thing that really helps. I thought my temp will be much higher on progesterone so not very impressed with my chart. wondering if i made a mistake in doing it rectally rather than vaginally. Maybe it's not being absorbed properly. 

Blood-thinner injections are really painful, maybe needles are thicker, not sure but menopur was much easier.

cramping is very unfortunate but there is nothing I can do to stop it, I am on my sofa with very little movement all day anyway. so bored! I cant watch anymore TV. I am probably one of those sad people that have to work because otherwise they do not know what to do with themselves. 

Been testing and i think today it's a proper bfn so the trigger must be out now. I decided to start testing early as I read that it's important to know whether there was a chemical. 

How're you doing with your plan? is it getting easier not thinking about TTC?


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## BBbliss

Thank you girls... But I just got home from the gym and I'm spotting :( it would have been a miracle :) it's ok. On the next month, I want to have DF tested again just before my next O and see if the supplements have done anything yet, I do know it officially takes a couple of months but I just want to see where we are. 

Blythe, it must be nice not to temp, I feel I'm obsessed with my chart, its really not healthy to be thinking this much about TtC but I can't help it. I have pulled back but just a bit because of SA but I still can't give up. You seam to be doing well with it and besides you already know when you O so you'll still not miss it :) it's all good, I think you are on a better plan ;)

Briss, I'm one those people who is perfectly fine doing nothing at all, hahaha but I know how you must be feeling specially with so much on your mind. I'm praying it will all be fine and will have a beautiful happy ending to your journey.


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## Blythe

Briss - oh no...i hate constipation. I do love prunes though :) Im sorry you are finding the blood thiner injections painful....how much longer do you have to inject yourself?

it will be a nerve-wracking few days if you are testing everyday...i know that you usually like to avoid testing. I remember those first few months where i would be testing all the time but, like you, i try my best to avoid it. Im sure wonderful will happen to you soon though.

is the cramping like AF cramping or more stabby cramping in one place?

Im ok but still think about trying to get pregnant every minute of every day although trying very much to do well at work and have a laugh with DH...we did get drunk together on sat night which was fun although hangover yesterday not much fun...

on the whole however i feel slightly more relaxed and will just try and keep it at this pace until the new year when i will sort out a cycle of IVF. we can only do that once for financial reasons but at least i will know i have tried it. I have made enquiries about a clinic in Czech Republic but i would need to stay over there for at least 21 days which i just cannot do so it would still be Kings or Create.

BBBliss - im sorry for the spotting...don't write this cycle off just yet though. i didnt temp for my first year of TTC...i used opks and brought a CBFM. i have found the temping to be very helpful in the past but just recently i found every slight temp drop in the 2WW would just really upset me for the entire day and only a temp rise would put me back on track...

i will be interested to see what difference the supplements make. i have DH on both the following supplements:

https://www.fairhavenhealth.com/motilityboost.html

and 

https://www.fairhavenhealth.com/countboost.html


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## alison29

Briss you should try numbing the injection site with ice first.


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## Briss

Blythe, it's great that you are regaining your relationships with DH. that's so positive. re IVF, if you only have one shot at it then it might be an idea to go for conventional IVF? With your stats, I think you have a pretty good chance to have a few eggs and some spare embryos to freeze just in case. With natural IVF, I found it very scary that everything hangs on just one egg and it was a huge comfort to know that DH agreed to do 3 attempts. every time I was about to start panicking (as you do when you go through each stage after the EC: is the egg mature; would it fertilise; would it divide etc), I drove myself to a very bad stomach ache worrying but it helped me know that that's not our last chance. everyone keeps talking about IVF in Czech Republic. is it really much cheaper? what clinic did you have in mind? 
Cramping is not like stabby cramping in one place
but more like AF cramping but very mild. I guess I notice the cramping cos I am not moving all day and paying attention. also now I'd normally be getting lots of creamy CM but on progesterone there is not any of the usual CM. 

Blood thinners are once a day for two weeks, same as progesterone.


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## Briss

alison, thank you for the tip, good idea I will try it next time. 

BBbliss, I am sorry about spotting but your temp is still up and I agree with Blythe, there is still hope.


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## Blythe

IVF zlin clinic is the name of the clinic in CR. I think they had a 2 cycle deal. I haven't worked it out in pounds but is was like one cycle in uk. 

I had really noticeable ewcm yesterday and string ovary cramping this evening right side only. I just did an opk and it's not positive but second line. DH is still suffering with post hangover tiredness do no BDing till tomorrow night. 

You mentioned before briss that this cycle made you think you may ovulate later than you previously thought. I'm wondering if it is the ovaries getting bigger. The other one is feeling strange now. I'm not meant to be obsessing but it's the stress of no BDing yet and the fear of missing my chance. Hopefully I will get a stronger line in morning then I will know lh surge on way rather than gone. Then I can try and relax. I swore I would not do opk but the ewcm yesterday really threw me because there was so much. Bit odd for me. I wish I would get it after positive opk and not before!!

Hopefully being back at work will help this 2ww fly by.


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## Briss

Blythe, did you do anything different this cycle that can explain lots of EWCM? I had no EWCM in this IVF cycle. I am actually convinced that you ovulate later, not tomorrow. I would not BD today, better leave it for tomorrow. Yes, I now think I might have got my timing wrong all along because this cycle was taken apart and my symptoms did not work with my scans and bloods, I did not ovulate when I was sure I did based on the usual symptoms. it's not just ovaries, sex drive going down, temp is up etc. FF still puts my temp for the day when I thought I O, rather than EC day, I had to override it as it was just annoyingly wrong. I think I relied on FF too much and over time got used to interpreting my symptoms as they fit into my charts but I think FF might be wrong by 1-2 days so it might be that we started BD too early and finished BD too early before O. 

OPK can change very quickly, on the day of my trigger I got at 4 pm a very faint second line and no smilie face but then at 7 pm it was smilie face.

Did anyone recommend this clinic in CR?

I know I said I was really bored today but now when I think I have to go to work tomorrow I do not want to... I have a meeting in the afternoon and I am seriously considering throwing a half day sickie :)


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## Briss

Blythe said:


> IVF zlin clinic is the name of the clinic in CR. I think they had a 2 cycle deal. I haven't worked it out in pounds but is was like one cycle in uk.

there is actually FF discussion board on this clinic - https://www.fertilityfriends.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=249944.0 

My main concern in doing it abroad would be flying back shortly after ET.


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## BBbliss

Blythe, you and I are on similar plan. I'm giving it 3 months before IVF, my DF didnt want to be the blends, he was skeptical and negative but I convinced him to get a few different things and his been more cooperative this past wk... I always pregnant think im on my 2ww till AF is in full flow, btw it hasn't arrived yet. Yesterday I had stabbing pain on left side but no real cramping and nothing today. I usually have AF cramps. If I don't see real flow by tomorrow morning I'll be testing with a FRER :)

I'm glad you had a nice wknd with hubby :)

Briss it's good to read your symptoms( sorry a out the shots) I have some of those symptoms like constipation, gas and yesterday burping a lot. Strange I feel no AF coming.


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## Blythe

BBbliss - :hugs: for AF. im sorry


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## BBbliss

Well girls my temp went up this morning and I tested negative :(

But let me share a success story from another BnB buddy on another thread. She's 47 recently engaged to a younger guy. 3 grown kids, removed her IUD in August and she's now pregnant! At 47! Naturally 

She's on the over 45 board. She introduces herself on page 3 just two months ago. Talk about a miracle!


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## Jazzbird

Sorry for your BFN BBbliss. 

I'm nearly at the end of AF although I found myself rubbing my tummy today like a deluded lunatic at lunch. 

Off to my nieces birthday this Saturday. She said I could be her fake mum last time I saw her. Made me well up. 

Xxx


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## Briss

BBbliss, I am very sorry about BFN, sending you hugs

afm, cramping is really gets to me, I was on my sofa doing nothing until lunchtime and then went to work and the cramping just got worse. It's like proper AF cramping with no AF (probably because of progesterone), it's very depressing cos I know it's uterine contractions that's causing the cramping. why would it be contracting??


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## Blythe

Briss said:


> Blythe, did you do anything different this cycle that can explain lots of EWCM? I had no EWCM in this IVF cycle. I am actually convinced that you ovulate later, not tomorrow. I would not BD today, better leave it for tomorrow. Yes, I now think I might have got my timing wrong all along because this cycle was taken apart and my symptoms did not work with my scans and bloods, I did not ovulate when I was sure I did based on the usual symptoms. it's not just ovaries, sex drive going down, temp is up etc. FF still puts my temp for the day when I thought I O, rather than EC day, I had to override it as it was just annoyingly wrong. I think I relied on FF too much and over time got used to interpreting my symptoms as they fit into my charts but I think FF might be wrong by 1-2 days so it might be that we started BD too early and finished BD too early before O.
> 
> OPK can change very quickly, on the day of my trigger I got at 4 pm a very faint second line and no smilie face but then at 7 pm it was smilie face.
> 
> Did anyone recommend this clinic in CR?
> 
> I know I said I was really bored today but now when I think I have to go to work tomorrow I do not want to... I have a meeting in the afternoon and I am seriously considering throwing a half day sickie :)



did you do a full day at work today? if you went in i hope your day has not been too stressful. are you still doing the prog every 8 hours?

i found that clinic by just googling so no personal recommendations. im just slightly terrified of going ahead with ivf knowing that it would be my only go so just thinking of ways i could take the pressure off but i simply cannot make it work doing it abroad unless all the appts in run up to EC were done in UK. There is actually a clinic that offers this service so i must look into it.

it is interesting about your symptoms/FF chart being slightly misleading. i am hopeful that the less i rely on FF and opts [to an extent anyway] the more i will be able to read my body. Having said that i had loads of EWCM on CD09 and strong ovulation pains on CD10 and i have not got a +opk yet so im not sure how that will work out.


----------



## BBbliss

Jazzbird, we are on same boat then, that was so sweet from your nice :)
I'm happy I'm going to be an aunt for the first time! My sis has dr today and I'm so happy for her. 

Blythe, I think my O pain comes a couple days before o as well as ewcm. On IVf , I found out a friend in Brazil had two kids via IVF and she pais about 3000 dollars each time. I thought about it, but how would you do it? How long would you have to be there? Can you take frozen sperm from DH with you? In my case I just don't know if its possible. 

Briss, thank you, but don't worry about the cramps, remember all the magic that's happening in there. You body is creating a new life and there are fireworks in the sky, or your uterus ;)


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## Briss

I did a half day at work today and did not really do much. Luckily everyone is out on that business trip I was supposed to go so it's quiet here. I do the prog roughly every 8 hours: 9-10 am/4-5 pm/ midnight-1 am. I do not like being on progesterone, it's unnatural and everything is weird 

I looked into IVF abroad a while ago but also did not see how I could make it work unless I stay there for a while which is going to cost a lot + hard to get annual leave. 

Blythe, I am surprised you did not get your + OPK yet considering your symptoms but then again you usually O on CD 13-15 so let's see what you get on Cd 12/13. At create they actually said they are happy to rely on OPK but not on temp. I was so sure FF gets it right but now I do wonder. particularly now when FF insists on putting my O on the day before EC &#8211; that's nonsensical! I am also not sure I interpreted my symptoms correctly based on what happened during this IVF cycle but then again they put me on meds that were going to stop the follicle releasing the egg so maybe that's why I did not O when I thought I did.


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## Blythe

BBbliss said:


> Jazzbird, we are on same boat then, that was so sweet from your nice :)
> I'm happy I'm going to be an aunt for the first time! My sis has dr today and I'm so happy for her.
> stretford_dogs's photo https://instagram.com/p/ewP_REIJhF/ like this stu? I just don't know if its possible.
> 
> Briss, thank you, but don't worry about the cramps, remember all the magic that's happening in there. You body is creating a new life and there are fireworks in the sky, or your uterus ;)

The clinic told me I would need to be there for at least 21 days. I need to re read the email. They requested copies of all tests from which they decide upon protocol. They also require you to take other tests which I would need to get done in uk and email to them, things like HIV etc

I think fresh sperm would be the norm but don't know too much about it to be honest. 

I find it reassuring that it's not just me getting pre ovulation cramping. I hate this bit before ovulation.


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## BBbliss

Maybe I could go spend 3ws in Brazil :) I'm going to find out. 

On Ovulation, my sister thought she Oed on CD11 according to an app she was using, but I insisted it was wrong and if we are anything alike, since we share the same genes, she probably Oed on cd16/17. I urged her to get the opk and took her to get some. And bingo! She's pregnant and ovulated on CD 16. She had no idea she was ovulating this late on a 28day cycle.


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## smurfy

Briss said:


> I did a half day at work today and did not really do much. Luckily everyone is out on that business trip I was supposed to go so it's quiet here. I do the prog roughly every 8 hours: 9-10 am/4-5 pm/ midnight-1 am. I do not like being on progesterone, it's unnatural and everything is weird
> 
> I looked into IVF abroad a while ago but also did not see how I could make it work unless I stay there for a while which is going to cost a lot + hard to get annual leave.
> 
> Blythe, I am surprised you did not get your + OPK yet considering your symptoms but then again you usually O on CD 13-15 so let's see what you get on Cd 12/13. At create they actually said they are happy to rely on OPK but not on temp. I was so sure FF gets it right but now I do wonder. particularly now when FF insists on putting my O on the day before EC  that's nonsensical! I am also not sure I interpreted my symptoms correctly based on what happened during this IVF cycle but then again they put me on meds that were going to stop the follicle releasing the egg so maybe that's why I did not O when I thought I did.

Glad you had a reasonably quiet day, just what you needed.

Interesting to hear that at Create they use the opk as indicator, so from when you had your postivie opk, when did they collect your eggs? I like yourself as you mentioned i am not sure if i have all the timing right with DTD and especially with timing it careful as hubby has low sperm count? would you suggest on what you know, to DTD on positive opk day or day after opk day - thanks for your insight and I really hope this cycles works out for you


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## Briss

Smurfy, at Create they rely on trigger shot +35 hours = EC. but if like in my case LH starts to rise before trigger shot they check OPK. it's just when I came for EC and asked for a scan cos I had a temp rise they told me they do not go by temp but generally consider OPK a good indicator. They still did the scan cos my OPK was positive before the trigger shot. it was quite lucky that my egg was still there patiently waiting to be collected. 

I usually rely on CBFM rather than OPK and more recently started BD during the night or early morning between first and second PEAK. although none of my BD strategies were ever successful ... 

cramping is not stopping :( and got lots of really weird looking yellowish/light beige CM, really thick like butter, so unusual for me, I guess it's due to synthetic progesterone. My lovely embryo is supposed to be implanting now, I am trying to stay positive and believe that that's what it's doing


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## gingmg

I feel weirdly unbelievably calm. Went to a hypnotist on sat, havent smoked since and I feel so calm and relaxed about it. Been doing yoga too. Im usually so anxious and it feels so nice to be calm. I dont want this feeling to ever leave.


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## Jazzbird

Gingmg - I love hypnotherapy. I use CDs all the time. They really take me down a few gears. Paul McKenna has a stop smoking one. I was so stressed after work yesterday it felt like I had a lump in my throat. So I listened to a relaxation one and 20 minutes later I felt so calm and peaceful.


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## Juniperjules

Hey girls, have been reading for a couple of days but not posting. Am at work so just a quick one. 

We aren't doing IVF this cycle. OH & I had another run in on Monday nite & various things came up. We have agreed to postpone. He says he wants things to go back to normal with us & starting the IVF this week amongst all the drama we have had is not really the best idea. And I agree. I do think he is having a kind of mid life crisis. Perhaps brought on by the enormity of doing the IVF???? He made comments on monday nite about needing to think about the future & where his life is going. He looked pretty rough & was almost in tears. But all the while still saying he loves me. Then last nite said that he wants things to go back to normal b4 the argument last week. 

I'm still at my folks place, but did see him Monday nite hence the run in. I may see him tonite after work- not sure yet. 

On one hand I am acting very calmly, but I do feel some anxiety about everything in general. Yesterday & today I have felt quite nauseas, and not quite normal. I feel very bloated & funny/heavy in the tummy area. I'm 10dpo. It may be anxiety related??? Don't know. It would b ironic if this is the month I got a natural bfp!!! I really doubt it, but I do feel quite sickly & am not eating much. I was tempted to buy a pregnancy test but will not. 

So things are unsettled at the moment but I'm ok really. I think OH has got issues & I need to get to the bottom of it. If we hold off on IVF this month then that allows another month to see how things pan out & if they calm down.


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## BBbliss

Gingmg, that sounds amazing! I've never tried that, my acupuncture has that effect on me too. I also listen to deepak chopra when I'm anxious, he has some great material. 

Juniper, I think you are on a good plan, I felt it would be really hard on you to do the IVF with things the way they were. You both need to be in a better place to make this happen. He may just want it as much as you do, but feels uneasy bringing a life life into your relationship the way it is right now. He loves you and you guys will get to that place again. Hang in there. Btw, give it one more day, you should test... It's when it looks like it shouldn't happen that it does. 

Maybe you, me and Blythe will do IVF together ;)


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## Jazzbird

Hi Juniper - sorry to read it's all very stressful still with DH. He does indeed sound like he's having a mid life crisis. I think it's common that ivf seems to be the trigger for it. 

I am excited about your symptoms though. Hope it's the BFP you've been waiting for and that the pregnancy will bring you and DH together. 

I think anyone logically contemplating a child would reject it after considering the costs, disruption and enormous responsibility. But it's not a logical decision ... and we just can't imagine the amazing feelings a child will bring. Perhaps this is what your DH is going through. 

Keep us posted. X


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## Briss

Gingmg &#8211; it's so great that hypnotherapy is helping you with smoking and makes you feel calm. I am also trying to stay calm and not be bothered with anything.

Juniper, I agree that might best to wait a little bit until your OH is feeing better and is more able to support you through the process. 

afm, hanging in there but just about. cramping is really scary but it looks like it's not as strong as yesterday so I am feeling more positive. Constipation is not getting any better, I cant go without prunes and I need more and more prunes every day. I thought my huge belly was due to constipation but because prunes are working I now think it's just bloating from all the hormones. It's really huge, I am wearing very loose clothes cos otherwise people at work will start commenting it's so prominent.


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## gingmg

BBliss- I saw Deepak Chopra at a nursing conference I went to a couple of years ago. It was by far one of the most amazing lectures I have ever attended. I didn't want it to end, it was so easy to listen to him and everything he said was fascinating. 

Juniper- Sorry to hear that things are still tense, but it sounds like you have come up with a plan that you are both comfortable with. I hope every day is a little bit better.

Briss- Hang in there!!!

JAzzbird- I'll have to look into those CDs, I wish I could feel this calm and stress free always. Going to keep doing yoga and see how long I can make it last. I read a little bit about the hypnotist I went to, it seems many people feel this way for about a week after seeing him. If I start smoking again, I can go back for free for as many times as I need to really be quit. Best 65$ I ever spent :)


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## Jazzbird

Gingmg - which hypnotherapist did you see? I went to one once for skin picking but her house was so dirty I never felt comfortable enough and since then have always used CDs. 

How is everyone? I keep logging in to find out what is going on with all the ivf and relationship issues and it's all quiet ...

Nothing to report my end. Waiting for my bd week to arrive. OH still very fatigued after his post op infection in July. Starting to think its affected his swimmers. He's totally wiped out every day. And has no energy to bd. I could really shake his consultant who kept telling us it's a minor op and it was a no brainer whether or not to do it. He's basically a shadow of his former self since the op and his breathing is worse not better.


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## Briss

Jazzbird, I am very sorry the operation affected your DH this way. I hope he will recover quickly and in time for BD week! 

afm, this TWW is really hard, I am afraid to breathe in case it may intervene with implantation&#8230; symptoms are not very promising but I keep hoping. I am now referring to myself as "us" and keep saying things like me and our dear little embryo are going to have some tea&#8230; I think my DH for the first time realised that he could have a very happy wife if only he can manage to get me pregnant.

cramping is very minor which is great but bloating is still there. I hope it's not something serious.


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## BBbliss

Briss, "us"...that's so sweet, don't worry about the bloating I think it's absolutely normal, my sis is 15dpo and was complaining how bloated she is, as if she's already months along. 

Jazzbird, sorry to hear about DH, is he on any meds or supplements? It's hard to watch someone you love not doing well and you can't do anything to help, I hope things go back to normal soon for you both. 

Gingmg, you are so lucky! I love Deepak, his meditation series help me so much, I even do them with DF as he also loves his teachings. 

Juniper, how do you feel? Are you testing? FX

Blythe, hope you are well :)

Afm, very very strange things are happening. This is my very first AF with NO cramps and the longest so far, also my temp took is going up instead of down on cd4! I'm very confused, I even tested this morning bfn of course. My temp was second highest past O today. The only thing different this time was the clomid last cycle, but would it still be affecting my progesterone these many days after I stopped taking it? What else could be causing hight temp or high progesterone this early on my cycle? Should I worry?


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## Briss

BBbliss, in terms of TCM I think higher temp before O indicates excess heat. I'd blame it on clomid tbh. is it possible you have a cold or something like this?


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## Blythe

Don't worry. I had much higher temps throughout cycle on clomid. :flower:


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## BBbliss

I am hot, DF said last night was hot, but it was me. I'm not sick or coming down with anything. It has to be the clomid. Lets see where it goes tomorrow. Thankyou for your input girls :)


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## Jazzbird

Briss - we are all there with you, all nervously hoping this is the month for you! It must be so hard. When do you find out?

BBbliss - Briss is right clomid is heating and also burns yin which again causes heat - specifically at night. It's called empty heat in tcm. 

What's happening with you juniper? 

And gingmg - how is the hypnotherapy holding out?

Blythe - are you managing to relax in your TTC break?

Afm - DH is not on meds. He's been like this for 3 months so I'm not expecting a change anytime soon. It's just so unlike him not to be up for bd. he's just so tired. 
He's so weak he's letting me stick needles in him and use moxa


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## gingmg

Jazzbird- I feel the calm cloud is slowly lifting and I'm coming back to my normal self. :( Went to hot yoga today to try to hang onto it, and might go to a restorative yoga class tonight. I loved feeling calm without having to work at it, I'm not used to that. Now I'll have to do what I can do to keep myself in a good space. I went to this guy who is known here as the "mad Russian", I could never pronounce his real name. Harvard university has studied him for years because they can't quite figure out how he is able to have such an effect on people. He actually denies that he hypnotizes people, he calls it bio-feedback energy work. I don't know what he did, but something shifted in me for a few days because I was ridiculously calm for not having smoked. Still haven't smoked, although I still think about it every few hours. My mom actually knew that I had started smoking again that last time because she said I was all of sudden calm again, I'm usually a hot mess when I don't smoke, and when that changed she suspected I had relapsed. This time, she is amazed at how calm I am and not smoking. I don't know what he did, but he did something and I'm grateful.


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## Juniperjules

Hey girls, sorry I'm not doing personal replies. Have had a pretty bad week. Things slightly better today but still not 100%... Hopefully usual service will resume shortly ; )

I'm kind of confused right now. Today is cd26. AF due Sunday (in 2 days). And I've just been to the bathroom & (sorry TMI!!) but I've got a decent amount of brownish discharge/AF??? I'm kind of shocked bcos AF coming on cd26 is really strange for me. AND usually it's bright red! This is dark like at the end of AF. It's kind of freaked me out a little. I have felt like there was a touch of cramping today, but I've had pretty high anxiety all week & felt quite sickly for the last 3 days so I figured its all stress related... I don't know, maybe the stress of the last week has brought AF on early???? But why is it dark?? That means old blood?


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## Briss

Juniper, brown means old blood and it's very uncertain. it could go either way: can be a sign of low progesterone and AF starting but also could be a BFP!! I so hope it's bfp for you


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## Jazzbird

Test juniper and report back!

Gingmg definitely try Paul mckennas stop smoking cd. I find his CDs wonderfully relaxing. That Russian guy sounds fascinating - what a fab experience.


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## Blythe

Jazzbird said:


> Briss - we are all there with you, all nervously hoping this is the month for you! It must be so hard. When do you find out?
> 
> BBbliss - Briss is right clomid is heating and also burns yin which again causes heat - specifically at night. It's called empty heat in tcm.
> 
> What's happening with you juniper?
> 
> And gingmg - how is the hypnotherapy holding out?
> 
> Blythe - are you managing to relax in your TTC break?
> 
> Afm - DH is not on meds. He's been like this for 3 months so I'm not expecting a change anytime soon. It's just so unlike him not to be up for bd. he's just so tired.
> He's so weak he's letting me stick needles in him and use moxa


Hope your DH will recover soon. I cannot imagine saying "it's so unlike him not wanting to bd" about my DH. 

Thank you for asking after me :) I am distracted as I have been overwhelmed with work but my DH still accused me if nagging him for sex last night. He said "I thought we were leaving it for a while". Well we are but it's surely not to much to ask for sex twice in one month so I have at least a bit if hope to see me though. I'm only insisting on him taking supplements 2 weeks instead of all the time too!!

Anyhow I'm doing a sewing course at the weekend which will distract me from both work and TTC :)

I have to say not temping anymore has been good for me...I feel slightly freed from the obsession.


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## Blythe

Briss. You must be excited with those temps of yours. I know the prog can distort stuff but there's a nice continuing rise. You might even pick up the bfp from tomorrow. How are your boobs?


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## Briss

Blythe, I did not sleep well last night and my temp is not really accurate this morning. also I do not think you can tell anything by temp while on progesterone? I started temping this cycle cos I was curious whether my temp will generally be higher than usual after O but no such thing. I remember not temping for one cycle and it was so relaxing! I will continue temping (although I truly hope I wont have to!!) to make sure my cycle goes back to normal after all the hormones. 

My boobs have been worse then ever, cant even tough them, so sensitive but it's definitely side effect of progesterone as it started before ET. I can also feel various small lumps which is worrying but I hope it's just due to progesterone. I am on 3 a day which I understand is a lot as when I came to get some more from the clinic the nurse was really surprised that I am taking so much. 

I've been testing daily cos it's just easier for me and helps me manage expectations but have to say I am beginning to obsess and see things that aren&#8217;t there. if the line is there you cant really miss it but if it's not there you mind can make it up for a second or so. I know the deference cos I saw a very faint line when I was testing out the trigger and it's just not something you can miss. 

a sewing course &#8211; sounds exciting! is it just the basics or something in particular? I used to love sewing!!


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## gingmg

I just tripped and fell down a flight of stairs. I know this is irrational, but could I have shooken something free? I'm only 5 dpo and I have this vision of a little ball of cells on a waterslide right out of me. I didn't ruin anything did I?


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## BBbliss

gingmg said:


> I just tripped and fell down a flight of stairs. I know this is irrational, but could I have shooken something free? I'm only 5 dpo and I have this vision of a little ball of cells on a waterslide right out of me. I didn't ruin anything did I?

Ging you're so funny! I'm sure nature has its tricks to protect the sacred and I can assure you you didn't shake anything inside. 

Briss, looking good! I thing it looks like its all going well. Btw, your hormones will probably not go back to normal... You are pregnant for now and hopefully for the next 9 months :)

I finally had a nice temp drop, to cover line at least, on cd5. 

On BD, I have had no libido these past couple of weeks and I read progesterone can do that, is that true for you girls? Lets see what happens now with the temp drop I may feel more "normal"


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## Briss

Ging, I had a very similar situation a few months ago and was also so worried about it. 

BBbliss, I know I so love it that I can refer to myself as PUPO!! I have very little sex drive after O so I guess it's down to progesterone.


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## Blythe

gingmg - when a fertilised egg wants to implant it will....if it doesn't it won't...there is very little we can do to change that [imo]. whilst the movement of going down the stairs must of been a bit scary i cannot imagine it made a jot of difference in there. More importantly, i hope you are ok...what a fright!

briss - i hate that thing where you stare intently at the stick for so long a line then starts appearing. i have retrieved numerous HPTs from the bin thinking i may have seen something....i hope for you that this will happen in the next few days [seeing an actual line not the dustbin stuff!]

it is a very exciting time...whats the deal with the prog...do you just keep taking till you get your bfp? when you get confirmation do you have to continue until 12 weeks or anything like that?

i am doing a short course in sewing with delicate fabrics and couture techniques on finishes. i am trying to get my skills the best i can as i do sew and occasionally sell skirts but want to do bodices and corsetry too. i want to make the most of being in london and doing these little courses where i can before getting out of the city hopefully next year. right now i feel like cosying up in the front room and not leaving but i know once in classroom i will be totally engaged in what i am doing...that is what i love about sewing..its all consuming.

juniperjules - i have been thinking of you and hoping things are getting easier. im not sure what to say about the old blood coming early...obviously the first thing i think is implantation bleeding but it could well be the stress messing around with those hormones.


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## Briss

Blythe, I am so happy you mentioned going back to the bin to double check the test :) I am constantly thinking about it, after examining the strip under direct and indirect light with and without the glasses and then throwing it away I still cant help but think I might have missed something... should I go back and check again??? it's ridiculous! another negative today but I am not taking it badly at all yet as it's too early. I guess from tomorrow it will start getting a bit more serious. 

I agree sewing is so consuming, I remember there was time when I could have easily go for days with very little sleep trying to finish a dress or a suit and just could not stop, it was drawing me in. Loved it! I think dealing with delicate fabrics is one of the most difficult things, well at least it was for me, i never learnt it properly. I love corsetry! You could make a living doing these! I bought my wedding corset here - https://www.fairygothmother.co.uk/Corsets.htm

so you are seriously thinking about living in the country? 

Progesterone is doing my head, cant figure out if I overdosed on it today or not. I was supposed to take it at 4, then at 6 I realised I'd forgotten so i put one in but then immediately thought that I did put one in at 4... just cant rememeber. I could them again and again and I think i most likely forgot to do it at 4. I will put one more in tonight but I so hope I am not overdosing. I have so many side effects as it is. I was told to take it until the test on wednesday and then depending on the outcome they will give me further instructions.


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## Juniperjules

Hey Girls, 
Briss- that progesterone situation sounds like a nightmare!! Can't believe how close it's getting for you. Will u do a HPT before ur blood test??

Blythe, well it's def AF. Early too! Surprisingly I'm not even upset really. Was disappointed for a moment but think I was so confused about it that I forgot to be upset! Strange that it was early & dark??? Can't explain it at all. I guess sometimes u have to just accept that ur body does wot it will when it wants. But if we do go ahead with IVF next month I'm gonna have to make sure I get an appt a bit sooner than I had anticipated incase AF comes early again & catches me off guard b4 I've even met the nurse or got any meds! 

Ging, I think you will be fine if there's an embie cooking! Our bodies are pretty well designed to withstand knocks in early pregnancy. 

Jazzbird & BBliss.. Hi to you both as well ; ) 




!


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## BBbliss

Happy weekend everyone!

Briss, I hope the bad symptoms from proges have subsided and you are doing well. We are all here for you and with you. Xoxo

Blythe, I love it that you are sewing! I'm grandmother used to sew, she raised 10 kids that way, but corsets just sound so hard, I wish I had more talent in that area, it would really be handy with 2 DD's. 

Juniper, ging, jazzbird, I hope all you girls have a marvelous weekend wherever you are!

Afm, I'm so excited! Me and DF closed on our new home yesterday and are finally moving in together today. I love my new house, I'm so happy! I still have to sell mine and I'm going to be moving my things slowly. I get really anxious with all the stuff I have so I decided to go slow hahaha. 

Btw, also heavy happy to report DF taking ALL his pills with no completing and all by himself :)


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## Blythe

Juniperjules - so sorry for AF....it would have been lovely to get a BFP prior to starting the IVF...but still exciting days are ahead for you.

My sewing course is good and very engaging but there are quite a few of us on it so its very fast moving and im sure i will forget most of it! those corsets on that site Briss are wonderful...i think to myself if i can sew those then i can sew anything so i really want to master it.

Have you testing today Briss?...i know you are on prog but your temps are steadily increasing and look so promising.

BBBliss - it must be so exciting to move...i am hoping that we can move out of london next summer and actually own a property rather than renting. I can do whatever i want with it.

i have always loved london but i dont earn enough to live in a decent area and i certainly dont earn enough to buy a property with more than one bedroom in this city. i no longer make the most of living here and nowadays i notice the crapper stuff rather than the exciting stuff i used to love. im looking forward to getting out of london but i will have to decide what i do with my job. Maybe i could look into the corset stuff as a sideline to build up!!


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## Briss

BBbliss, congratulations on your new home! wonderful news!

Blythe, that moving out of London stuff, you sound like a proper grown-up :) I'd love to own property too but I agree i do not see it happening for us in London. I am not even sure what our savings are going to be like after the IVF...

afm, just tested, still negative :( but I am hoping and praying...


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## Blythe

It would have been super Early to get a bfp (particularly with pm urine). Hang on in there I have a good feeling.


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## Briss

what do you mean pm urine? is it wrong? should i be testing the first thing in the morning? 

actually it's not super early, I checked and most people get their BFP b/w DPO 10-12


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## Blythe

I was going from your transfer date so a fertilised egg could knock around for a few days before implanting so I think it's still early. But you know it's been a while since I read up on this stuff but I do know that am urine is more likely to give an early result that pm urine......it's had longer to soak up the Hgc (or something like that)

Briss I have everything crossed you. How have you been sleeping?


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## Briss

OK I am switching to morning testing! I did not think of that. 

A friend is visiting and I did not tell anyone about IVF so i am clearing any traces of anything IVF related at home. packed all my injections, will have to do them in secret.

Sleeping has not been great, i tend to wake up really early and have nightmares... that's why I am not really relying on my temp

I have been very calm, no hysterics or anything like that. I keep talking to my dear embryo. determined to try and stay positive...


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## Blythe

A few weeks ago one of my brothers was staying and I thought I had cleared all my TTC ephemera away. Alas I saw him in my bedroom looking at a picture I had taped to my mirror with words like positive, fresh food, happy, pregnant on it to inspire me in the morning. Not so bad....but the stick person with protruding belly was too much.....I quickly ushered him out hoping he had not looked too closely. It was just just short of me having putting a cut out of my face on a pregnant celebrity. 

I hid all my TTC books recently....sick of the bleeding things although I did read the 'dealing with infertility one. Same crap....relax, breath etc etc yes, yes, yes!


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## Briss

that's so funny about your brother :) how come I did not think of putting that stuff on walls around my flat to encourage me. I have so much TTC stuff that I cant really clear it all, but my friend knows I TTC she just does not know about IVF. we decided not to tell anyone except for my mum but she is protecting the secret with all her heart. 

started cramping again :( I should not have cleaned the flat but it's in such a state that I was embarrassed for somebody to see it...


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## Briss

I started spotting :( it's only 10 DPO :( I was 3 hours late with my progesterone depository maybe that's why? I am so worried, it's just not a great thing to be spotting while on 3x400 of progesterone a day and so early. i never spot in TWW and my LH is always 13/14 days. am really getting depressed now.


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## BBbliss

Briss, this could be implantation bleeding, in sure, it's only 10dpo and it should still be within the expected implantation period, besides I have read you can have implantation bleeding days after implantation not only the day of. Keeping my fingers crossed for you. Hang in there!


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## Blythe

i have no clue what your spotting could be...I could speculate but im not sure how helpful that would be - you have no option but to wait and test and wait and test. TTC without IVF is agonising enough so i cannot imagine how you are feeling right now....being in a constant state of limbo is just exhausting. either way you will find out within the next few days and we all wish and hope this first cycle is all you will need.


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## Briss

still cramping this morning and can still see a tiny amount of beige spotting :( tested negative this morning


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## Blythe

Briss - :hugs: - ive been wanting to message you today to pass on a virtual :hugs:...i was in my course again so couldn't use my phone.

Plenty of women bleed/spot at all different times throughout their 2WW...i have just been googling it for IVF 2WWs and there are ladies that get it and get their BFPs so please don't feel too depressed yet.


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## gingmg

I'm sorry Briss, I hope its just too early for testing and I hope the spotting is IB.


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## Briss

afm, 12 dpo this morning and tested negative, still spotting (a hint of light brown when I wipe) and cramping. because spotting is very unusual for me and you know what they say anything unusual can potentially be a good thing, I am trying to see it as positive but quite hard every time I see it it just strikes me as wrong. it's been 3 days...

asked my Dh to look at the strip cos I thought I saw something :dohh:, my DH said I was mad and there was no second line whatsoever, what I see is a line with the agent that is supposed to react to my pregnancy hormone and if I stare long enough I will see the same line on any new unused strip. how cruel is this?


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## Jazzbird

Briss - your DH is not the most sensitive :-( I do exactly the same thing staring at the white stripe on the test strip imagining a line is appearing. 

It's SO hard in 2ww not to second guess every symptom so I can't imagine how bad it is after ivf.

Hang in there though, you just don't know what this means yet. Some women never test positive until they are a few days late. Some even continue to have periods. 

Lots of hugs to you xxx


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## Briss

I am not sure how it works in an IVF cycle but I think you cant get AF until you stop taking progesterone? I guess it my blood test will be negative on Wednesday they will stop my progesterone and I will get AF the next day?

I truly hope that I am pregnant by some miracle and the trips just do not show it yet&#8230;


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## BBbliss

Briss, hang in there sweetie, anything is possible. Remember last last week how high my temps were and I still got AF full on. Your spotting is not AF and besides even it it was you could still get BFP. My next door neighbor didn't find out she was preg till 5 months, she said she had regular periods for first 4. Also 30% of women don't get posited until they are late. 

I know it's hard I can only imagine the kind of day you are having but there's still hope, I'll be praying today. Hugs


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## Juniperjules

Oh Briss it's so nervewracking for you, I can only imagine. If positive loving thoughts brought bfp's we'd all be UTD by now... You girls in here are just so wonderful with ur positivity & encouragement. Sometimes I think wouldn't it be great to have a 'real life' group of TTC'ers that u could sit & have a coffee with once a month! But maybe it would be different, maybe the beauty of this is that everyone can really say exactly what they feel/ think etc safe in the anonymity of the forum. 

Try to hang in there Briss. I know sometimes when I'm nervous of getting a result that isn't wot I'm hoping for (in life- not just ttc), I try & make sure that I have a plan for wot to do next. Something I can fall back on iykwim???? I believe in being positive about things working right up until proven otherwise, but also having a plan to keep me going if I need it. 

AFM, really weird AF for me this month. Don't know wot my body is playing at. I had no cramping to speak of this month!!!! Very weird! I had some very light crampy sensations on Friday nite just before & after the start of AF. Then nothing after that. Normally the next day I'd be swallowing ibuprofen with codeine to hold off strong cramping. Also, TMI, it has also been mostly dark red & seems quite thick... Sorry girls for the details. Anyway... It's not my usual AF. I'm wondering whether the 1000iu of Vit E is actually having an effect- it's meant to thicken ur lining (according to my FS). Maybe it's got something to do with it. 

On a positive note, I think I'm now a convert to using softcups during AF. I bought some a few months ago to 'assist' with ttc. U are supposed to insert them after BD to 'hold' swimmers close to the cervix! Anyway, I never really warmed to the idea & tried once then gave up. However today I'd run out of tampons & decide to try one as a last resort- u can keep them in for 12 hours. And I've decided that they are great! Can't get them here but I bought them in a pack of 20 from the US on eBay.


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## Jazzbird

So OH still feeling very tired and has no energy to bd. my bd week is just about to start and he asked me which days he has to perform. I told him at least twice this week but that because we haven't done it for a few weeks he'll need to release some in the next few days. 

He's now complaining that I'm trying to "milk" him. Thought that might make you laugh as it did me. 

I had a dream we had a baby boy last night. I breast fed him once and suddenly he turned into a fully grown adult. How weird. I wonder what it means?!


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## BBbliss

Juniper, same here! No cramps AT ALL and it was unusual for me, in my case I think it could have been from the l-arginine as its supposed to help with blood flow and linning. It felt great not having any pain. Also same happened to me with the soft cups. I've been using them for a couple of months and love them! They are the disposable types but I rinse them well and reuse for full cycle then discard. 
Girls, never worry about TMI. There's no such thing here. That's what we can do for each other, talk a out things other people won't. 

I hope everyone is well, specially you Briss xo


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## Jazzbird

Juniper - I have the same thoughts you do. Would be nice to meet up in person but the anonymity would be lost and that would probably change the whole dynamic.


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## Blythe

Juniperjules said:


> Oh Briss it's so nervewracking for you, I can only imagine. If positive loving thoughts brought bfp's we'd all be UTD by now... You girls in here are just so wonderful with ur positivity & encouragement. Sometimes I think wouldn't it be great to have a 'real life' group of TTC'ers that u could sit & have a coffee with once a month! But maybe it would be different, maybe the beauty of this is that everyone can really say exactly what they feel/ think etc safe in the anonymity of the forum.
> 
> Try to hang in there Briss. I know sometimes when I'm nervous of getting a result that isn't wot I'm hoping for (in life- not just ttc), I try & make sure that I have a plan for wot to do next. Something I can fall back on iykwim???? I believe in being positive about things working right up until proven otherwise, but also having a plan to keep me going if I need it.
> 
> AFM, really weird AF for me this month. Don't know wot my body is playing at. I had no cramping to speak of this month!!!! Very weird! I had some very light crampy sensations on Friday nite just before & after the start of AF. Then nothing after that. Normally the next day I'd be swallowing ibuprofen with codeine to hold off strong cramping. Also, TMI, it has also been mostly dark red & seems quite thick... Sorry girls for the details. Anyway... It's not my usual AF. I'm wondering whether the 1000iu of Vit E is actually having an effect- it's meant to thicken ur lining (according to my FS). Maybe it's got something to do with it.
> 
> On a positive note, I think I'm now a convert to using softcups during AF. I bought some a few months ago to 'assist' with ttc. U are supposed to insert them after BD to 'hold' swimmers close to the cervix! Anyway, I never really warmed to the idea & tried once then gave up. However today I'd run out of tampons & decide to try one as a last resort- u can keep them in for 12 hours. And I've decided that they are great! Can't get them here but I bought them in a pack of 20 from the US on eBay.


i started using those moon cups and softcups too but have still to manage a period without leaks...still it has saved on tampons and i love that im not flushing that stuff into the system...doing my bit for the environment and all!

i have not used them for ttc for ages though as i found the sperm would be both sides when i took them out and by the time i managed to shove the thing up there i had no clue where it came to rest. its a shame i cannot have more confidence in these things as i have been thinking recently that the reason i am not pregnant is due to DH's shrinking member! i mean it worked once but nowadays it just does not seem to get that big [combination of tiredness and just not being that turned on by me] and i honestly think the sperm is just coming out around the edges and not going anywhere near my cervix. i would encourage him to deposit in one of the softcups but by the time i got it up there i know the fluid would be everywhere.

i wanted to ask you about the vit e....i have started taking the 1000iu you suggested and no mad effects yet although i will report back on my period. do you take throughout cycle or just before ovulation?


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## Briss

Blythe, I would not recommend such high doses of Vit E after O, there have been a lot of talk and research linking it to birth defects. Previously it was recommended to all pregnant women as a must but later discredited. There is a lot of conflicting info so I usually stop at O just in case


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## Blythe

Thank you briss. I will knock it on the head. I hope you are ok.....has the spotting stopped yet?


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## BBbliss

Blythe, why don't you and your DH try an ED drug just for fun. My DF has to take cialis most of the time, but he only takes half and it lasts a couple of days. He doesn't walk around "ready" it only helps when you get busy ;)
And don't worry about the amount, if you are fertile and the stars line up, just a little is all it takes. When I was about 20 I got pregnant from my boyfriend just on that little bit that comes out before they O. True story, he never did O inside. I was so shocked and sad... I was so young and didn't want to marry him so I terminated it. Very sad. OH! He and was English! but this story has a happy ending for him, years later I set him up with a friend, they got married and now have three kids :)


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## Briss

spotting is there not constantly but from time to time when I wipe I can see a bit of colour, so annoying. I feel like synthetic progesterone might have messed up my LH. I also have cramps and a very heavy feeling like AF is about to burst out :( there is some other kind of dull pain which has not stopped for 3 days. that last one makes me feel slightly optimistic although I had this one before just not as constant.

was about to test again in the evening but managed to stop myself, this is just ridiculous! I was checking flights earlier on if things get bad on wednesday I want to take a few days off and stay at my mum's. My DH will not bare my breakdown, he is constantly checking if I am still happy about being PUPO and even slight unhappy expression on my face drives him mad...


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## Blythe

BBbliss said:


> Blythe, why don't you and your DH try an ED drug just for fun. My DF has to take cialis most of the time, but he only takes half and it lasts a couple of days. He doesn't walk around "ready" it only helps when you get busy ;)
> And don't worry about the amount, if you are fertile and the stars line up, just a little is all it takes. When I was about 20 I got pregnant from my boyfriend just on that little bit that comes out before they O. True story, he never did O inside. I was so shocked and sad... I was so young and didn't want to marry him so I terminated it. Very sad. OH! He and was English! but this story has a happy ending for him, years later I set him up with a friend, they got married and now have tree kids :)


Tree kids :) Thank you for telling me your story :flower:

I might try some ed stuff.....I did try him on Chinese herbs that were meant to have that effect but no real difference. I just mentioned it too him and he said "I don't need it do I" I will have to give it too him without him knowing what it is!!


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## Blythe

Briss said:


> spotting is there not constantly but from time to time when I wipe I can see a bit of colour, so annoying. I feel like synthetic progesterone might have messed up my LH. I also have cramps and a very heavy feeling like AF is about to burst out :( there is some other kind of dull pain which has not stopped for 3 days. that last one makes me feel slightly optimistic although I had this one before just not as constant.
> 
> was about to test again in the evening but managed to stop myself, this is just ridiculous! I was checking flights earlier on if things get bad on wednesday I want to take a few days off and stay at my mum's. My DH will not bare my breakdown, he is constantly checking if I am still happy about being PUPO and even slight unhappy expression on my face drives him mad...[/QUOTE
> 
> It's virtually impossible to know what's what with those bloody hormones!! My DH would be the same.....men don't get the mental torment. How could they possibly know how it feels, what to say, when to talk, when not to talk. I do feel sorry for them sometimes as it's an impossible task. That's why I would have crumbled without this forum.
> 
> There's some promising things going on there briss. Will you go to the clinic on weds for your blood test and do they give results on same day?


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## Briss

Been examining my pregnancy tests and completely convinced they are faulty, expired and are generally wrong :) seriously! 

I am going to the clinic first thing on wednesday, if I do the test before 11.30 am the results will be ready on the same day.


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## BBbliss

Blythe. Do that! He will never know, he'll just think he's the man! 

Briss, Blythe is right, men just don't know how to process emotion. The world would never exist without us women. We are the glue that keeps it all together. Just look at how much you' ve done just these past couple of months. You are special and love you are investing in this will return ten fold, maybe not in recognition but in satisfaction and contentment. It will all be worth it 
Who knows one day we'll all have a reunion with our babies. We'll leave the DHs at home!


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## Juniperjules

Blythe, I take the vitamin E all month. I'm just going by what my FS said to take. I guess if I got a BFP I'd be putting a halt on everything (except a pre-natal vit) I was taking & would be checking with her as to wot should continue & what should stop. I've been taking the Vit E For months now, maybe 4-5 mths.


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## Briss

13 DPO, my temp is up, no cramping and no spotting this morning I was getting my hopes up but&#8230; bfn. I guess it's quite clear now but I will continue hoping for a miracle up until I get my blood test results tomorrow.

Dh mentioned getting his own place again, I wonder if this is a defence mechanism against our failure


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## Jazzbird

Briss - we are all thinking of you. It's not over yet. No spotting is a good sign. 

I suspect deep down your OH feels responsible for all your heartache and stress. Try to give him the benefit of the doubt. 

Thinking of you today and tmrw. Xxx


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## Jazzbird

Briss - we are all thinking of you. It's not over yet. No spotting is a good sign. 

I suspect deep down your OH feels responsible for all your heartache and stress. Try to give him the benefit of the doubt. 

Thinking of you today and tmrw. Xxx


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## Briss

Spoke too soon, my spotting is back :(

which are more sensitive pregnancy tests 10miu or 25 miu? Am I right to think that the lower the mlu ie:10 the earlier it's supposed to pick the pregnancy up?


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## gingmg

Yes you are correct, the 10 is more sensitive if I understand it right myself.


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## melly2

Hi Briss,

I'm assuming they have you on some sort of progesterone right now? The reason I ask is because low progesterone can lead to spotting, but I would assume that they have this covered during this cycle. Otherwise, it could be some implantation. ;-) Keeping my fingers crossed for you!!




Briss said:


> Spoke too soon, my spotting is back :(
> 
> which are more sensitive pregnancy tests 10miu or 25 miu? Am I right to think that the lower the mlu ie:10 the earlier it's supposed to pick the pregnancy up?


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## Briss

melly, I am really hoping for implantation cos I do not usually spot and I am on a very high dose of synthetic progesterone as well &#8211; 3x400. just getting bfn after bfn is really upsetting. I can feel that it's just not right. why would I be spotting? can it from too much progesterone? 

I regret that I stopped myself yesterday, I should have bought these pregnancy tests. I just read that the cheap ones are actually not sensitive at all even though they are supposed to pick the hormone at 10, quite a few ladies were getting bfns with them and fbp with other tests using the same urine sample. am off to boots!


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## BBbliss

Briss, I still say it could be IB. They are still not always sure why some women spot or even bleed while still pregnant and go on to have healthy babies. Good luck tomorrow on your blood test. 

Blythe every time I think about the tree kids I start laughing. Picture this: a dyslectic, foreigner with failing eyes typing on my iPhone, lol I miss letters all the time or my autocorrect just gives me a something completely wrong haha


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## Briss

Ladies, I know i've gone slightly mad but it's very confusing. I am staring at 5 pregnancy tests all using the same urine sample and here we are:

10miu cheap ones - not a hint of a second line
Boots own brand - not a hint of a second line
Clear Blue digital - not pregnant
Clear Blue - hard to say, I think I can see something just a shadow of a line, cant be sure
First response - I can see a line, it's very faint but it's definitely there

I really want to trust First response. Can I? Can it be wrong? why others are not showing anything? After years of TTC I am just so scared. I was trying to take a picture of First Response but it's just so faint you cant see it properly on a picture.


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## Blythe

If there is a line on first response you are pregnant. The cb digi need more Hgc to register. Looks like this is it......your blood test will hopefully give you the reassurance you need

Very exciting indeed :)


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## melly2

Briss said:


> Ladies, I know i've gone slightly mad but it's very confusing. I am staring at 5 pregnancy tests all using the same urine sample and here we are:
> 
> 10miu cheap ones - not a hint of a second line
> Boots own brand - not a hint of a second line
> Clear Blue digital - not pregnant
> Clear Blue - hard to say, I think I can see something just a shadow of a line, cant be sure
> First response - I can see a line, it's very faint but it's definitely there
> 
> I really want to trust First response. Can I? Can it be wrong? why others are not showing anything? After years of TTC I am just so scared. I was trying to take a picture of First Response but it's just so faint you cant see it properly on a picture.

If there is a hint of a line on the First Response and Clear Blue, then that is much higher likelihood that it's a positive. If you are indeed implanting, the hormone HcG gets released after implantation, so it may be taking longer if you implanted a bit later.


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## BBbliss

Briss, you can trust it! If there's a line there IS hcg in your system. The other tests are not as sensitive. I'm glad you got a fret! I was beginning to worry. Tomorrow will be just the confirmation you need. Fingers crossed!


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## Briss

Blythe, thank you. attaching the first response. not a great picture but it's so faint that it's really hard to take a picture of it. I just hope it's not some kind of mistake cos all other tests were negative. I went out and got super drug for later today (do not have any more urine left in me). I obviously had a cry when I saw it :) my DH was not convinced said it's my camera playing up... but I can see it, i am not dreaming. I so hope my blood test will go well tomorrow. I am doing my last blood thinning injection tonight, no idea if I need to get more tomorrow.
 



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## Blythe

Briss that is a clear line. You are pregnant. You have done it. :)


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## Jazzbird

Woooooooooooooooooo!!

There is a line. I can see it too. Congrats Briss. You sooooooo deserve it!!! 

XXX


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## Briss

I've had my initial reaction and now trying to calm down and just take it one day at a time starting with a blood test tomorrow. I've been TTC for so long that I do not even know what happens next, I know blood test should show something above 50? is this right? and then double that number every day to confirm a viable pregnancy? I so hope spotting will stop, it's so scary and cramping as well. 

I did do another pregnancy test, super drug but it gave me a line way after 3 minutes and it's much fainter than first response, you really need to stare for a while before you can see it. Maybe it's not even there...

Blythe, do you watch masters of sex? it's a new drama on channel 4 - very good!


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## threebirds

Oh my briss :happydance:
I think this is it! Keeping everything crossed for you x


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## BBbliss

Briss!!! It's there! It's clearly visible even if you say it's a bad picture! You did it! I'm so happy for you! This is it! You really deserve this. Goog luck tomorrow :)

Congratulations! Yay!


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## gingmg

I'm laughing and crying for you!!! There is def a line! Yay!!!!!


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## Briss

gingmg, thank you! I cried when I realised that it can actually be for real. 

Cant believe DH is not in a hurry to get home. I thought he'll be more supportive. I guess he does not believe in faint lines, he was so against all this mad testing. he thinks we should just rely on a blood test and until then have nothing to celebrate


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## Clizard

Woohoo - Fantastic Briss!


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## Juniperjules

Briss there's definitely a line there! Sometimes pics on these forums u really can't see a line- but that's pretty clear!!! OMG!!! It worked!!! How amazing!!! I actually feel sick in the stomach with anticipation for you!! :) your DH will b like most men, very black & white. He won't want to show any excitement until he is certain for fear of looking like a fool. 

Roll on the blood test!!!


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## Blythe

Briss said:


> I've had my initial reaction and now trying to calm down and just take it one day at a time starting with a blood test tomorrow. I've been TTC for so long that I do not even know what happens next, I know blood test should show something above 50? is this right? and then double that number every day to confirm a viable pregnancy? I so hope spotting will stop, it's so scary and cramping as well.
> 
> I did do another pregnancy test, super drug but it gave me a line way after 3 minutes and it's much fainter than first response, you really need to stare for a while before you can see it. Maybe it's not even there...
> 
> Blythe, do you watch masters of sex? it's a new drama on channel 4 - very good!

No but I will look out for it. It sounds explicit....is it?


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## Jazzbird

Hope everything goes ok for you today Briss. Report back as soon as you can. We're all so excited for you! 

So nice for this thread to finally have a BFP!

Let's hope it causes a domino effect. Xxx


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## Juniperjules

So OH & I had a talk last nite. Things have been very unsettled for 2 weeks & ttc has just been put on a back burner. Anyway, things have been calmer the past few days & last nite i brought it up bcos i felt i had to. 
he said he still wants a baby & wants to 'try once more on our own' b4 doing IVF. To which I replied that we had no choice anyway bcos oct is a bust re IVF as I would've had to start drugs on the weekend... Don't think he really gets the timelines....
Anyway, I have been feeling uncertain of wot he is feeling/thinking/ wanting over the past few weeks. And so in my head i have been playing 'what if' with my life if things didnt/don't work out with us. But as ive said, last nite he told me he definitely wants to have a baby & will still do IVF. He wants things to go back to normal, & is already acting like the last 2 weeks didn't happen... Not so easy for me. But I am trying to look at things in a matter of fact way- rather than my usual emotional way. 

So I've decided I'm going to play this out & see what happens. If we're staying together & both want a child then I really just want to do IVF in November. I'm not willing to keep putting it off over & over again. If we get to November & he still wants to put it off then I will feel like maybe we need to re-evaluate what we are doing. After all these years together I feel like if he starts getting cold feet about this again (after all the drama of the last 2 weeks) then I have to look at it seriously, and i am 39 in december. if we havent tried ivf by then i really need to take stock of everything. I want this to work, I want us both to be happy. But if he keeps putting it off then I will suggest that we split for some time. A baby is the next logical step & he keeps saying he wants it. so if he puts it off over & over i have to do something dramatic. Time to both figure out how we feel. I don't want this to happen of course but I have decided that I won't just keep going month after month feeling unsure- not after already spending the last 12 months dealing with a myriad of issues & emotions. If he wants me, if he wants a baby- then we make it happen ASAP & put all this behind us. I'm hopeful that things can be good, but I also want to be matter of fact that life is unpredictable. If I feel towards the end of the year that he is pulling back/ seems unsure again- then I have to take a stand for my own sanity, actually maybe for both of us really. I will have plenty of savings and would probably go to London to stay with my sister or to Glasgow to stay with any of my family who will have me! Either way, it would be a proper break- I'd probably go in jan or feb. I haven't told him any of this, although a week & a bit ago ago I did give him the option of me leaving for the UK for 6 months. And he said no. But I will keep it up my sleeve as an option if we're still in this confusing place by the start of 2014. 

I feel positive bcos I'm feeling strong in my conviction. Either we do IVF & hopefully get pregnant, or we don't do it & we take a break & see wot happens. I'm done with uncertainty & anxiety!!


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## Juniperjules

Blythe said:


> Briss said:
> 
> 
> I've had my initial reaction and now trying to calm down and just take it one day at a time starting with a blood test tomorrow. I've been TTC for so long that I do not even know what happens next, I know blood test should show something above 50? is this right? and then double that number every day to confirm a viable pregnancy? I so hope spotting will stop, it's so scary and cramping as well.
> 
> I did do another pregnancy test, super drug but it gave me a line way after 3 minutes and it's much fainter than first response, you really need to stare for a while before you can see it. Maybe it's not even there...
> 
> Blythe, do you watch masters of sex? it's a new drama on channel 4 - very good!
> 
> No but I will look out for it. It sounds explicit....is it?Click to expand...

I think that was on TV here last nite.


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## Briss

ladies, I am in shock, just did another First Response and it's completely negative, not a hint of a line :( I do not think I can bare this, it's just too much. I was prepared for negative but last night's testing made me hope and now I am just crashed to the ground :(


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## Jazzbird

Did you test with first morning urine?

If not - the hcg might not be strong enough ... 

Stay calm and wait for this blood test. What time is your apptmt?

Xxx


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## Briss

jazzbird, I used my first morning urine so the line was supposed to get stronger, only it did not I just had my blood test and waiting for results. 

I did super drag test as well, mad as I am and I think I can see something, not a line not near to yesterday's First Response but just a showdown of a line. At the clinic they told me "this never happened before" that one day you get a positive and the next it's completely negative. I can only wait for blood test results which will be ready in the evening. If yesterday's positive was a fluke this is somebody's very cruel joke. Because I was preparing myself for negative for days so it does not come as a shock so I can bare it and not fall completely into pieces. I had a plan B set up of what I am going to do in case of negative blood test and I was emotionally prepared to take that phone call. Now I am a complete nervous wreck and emotionally unstable. I do not have it in me to cope with a negative phone call later today, I am just going to fall into pieces. I am already crying 

My AF crams are really strong, spotting increased in volume and is a definite brown colour, I feel like AF is about to start in a most violent way. It's really that bad. I cant even sit still. 

Blythe, masters of sex is about the first proper research into woman's orgasm and sexuality and how it was conducted. it's quite interesting, not sure how much of it is true but the research itself is very famous. I will try to find a link once I get out of this black hole I am currently in


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## Briss

Juniperjules, sounds like a plan. I am hoping all goes well and you will do IVF in November or maybe even better you get a natural BFP before that!


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## Jazzbird

You poor thing. Only a few more hours to wait. 

Hang in there. Xxx


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## Jazzbird

Juniper - read your posts and think you have the right attitude. If things don't improve you have to take back some control for your own sanity. 

Hopefully he will be fully on board and ivf will be successful and you'll have a new direction together.


----------



## Juniperjules

Oh Briss, wot a cruel horrible situation ur in. Do u have anyone u can spend a few hours with?? It's very very hard doing this alone. You really need some support. I know it's only words, but we are all here for you. 

If you really can't cope and need to speak to someone u can PM me & I will happily call or text you. Hope it doesnt sound weird, i know this forum is anonymous etc etc, but ur pain & distress is real. I might b on the other side of the world but if it helps I am more than happy to do it. I have been pretty damn low lately & being able to talk or text my mum has been my lifeline. So pls, if even being able to text someone who knows exactly wots happening will help, then pls let me know. 

keep reminding urself that these feelings will pass.. The panic & distress will feel overwhelming right now, It feels like the world is crashing in on u but it isn't. If u had a plan B keep reminding urself that u had it & that it still applies if things don't work out today.


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## Briss

Juniperjules, thank you very much for your support! that means a lot to me. I am trying to concentrate on my work which I pushed away last couple of weeks for obvious reasons. I think I've calmed down a little, I am just trying not to think anything. Once I get the results if they are negative I will just get the rest of the day off and will do some self therapy at home and talk myself back to life. and then book flights to go and spend a few days with my mum before starting over.


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## Blythe

Briss thinking of you and hoping for only the best for you. 

Juniper Jules - what a lovely lady you are


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## BBbliss

Briss, praying floor good news for you today. I can only imagine how strong you have to be today at work, please do know we are here thinking of you, every step of the way. 

Juniper, beautiful message you left Briss, thank you for putting into words what we all feel and want to say. Also, I'm proud of you for your plan, you should take back you decision making and feel a little more empowered... I think it's a good path, best of luck


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## Briss

I could not help it and tested again with FRER (I spent a small fortune on these tests), I can see a very faint line much fainter than yesterday but I can see it. Is it bad news cos it got fainter rather than stronger? Please do not judge me harshly I know I should just wait for a phone call with my blood results but suspense is just so hard.


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## Jazzbird

I practically eat test sticks in my 2ww - no one will judge you here! You're in good company. 

I guess even if it had been a definite negative or positive - you would still be in doubt. 

The phonecall will give you the definitive answer - so if you can stand it, put the tests away and try waiting it out. Only a couple of hours to go.


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## gingmg

Oh Briss how suspenseful. Try to hang in there until you can get some answers. I can't imagine how stressful this is. No matter what they say when they call, you can handle this and you will get through it.

Juniper- sounds like a good plan. I hope that you do Ivf.


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## Briss

bad news for me, my beta came back as 8.3, too low to call it positive. They were very direct and told me that unfortunately they see it as negative. I am to repeat the test on Friday and they expect I get a completely negative result. They did not want to give me false hope and said with these low levels this is just not good news. the only positive fact is that there was an attempt at implantation but unfortunately not successful.


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## gingmg

I'm so sorry Briss.


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## Jazzbird

Hugs Briss. Xxx


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## melly2

I'm so sorry, Briss.


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## Briss

Thank you ladies, i am just very sad, not even crying


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## Blythe

its absolute bollocks...im so very sorry and very sorry too for getting so excited last night and getting your hopes up.

i just so sad that this is so hard for you and the others on this thread too...some people sneeze and they are pregnant but for others the journey is so darn hard. i read the ivf threads avidly and see that many girls get a chemical on their first and go on to have successful rounds and some natural BFPs.

i hope you are able to take time for yourself and that you get lots of cuddles too from your dh - if not him, your mum.


----------



## Briss

thanks Blythe, it's painful that my first ever positive test resulted in nothing. To think of it I started testing early so i could detect a chemical if I get one cos I read somewhere that chemicals are a depressingly positive sign in IVf cycles. i mean apparently it's better than nothing at all, although from where i am it sure does not feel that way... the doc could not explain the reason for our failure, she said it can be anything and tbh they just do not know. Once they confirmed negative beta on Friday I can book my review and discuss next steps. 

i was so happy last night, started making plans... almost ordered a book on pregnancy.

Back to square one I suppose, I will have to continue charting etc as i want to make sure my cycle goes back to normal.

DH is asking whether i want to try conventional IVF but tbh I just do not think I can go through with that. My ovary feels pretty sensitive with one follicle I cannot even imagine what it must feel like having several.


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## Juniperjules

Briss, am sorry this is how things have worked out. So so disappointing. 

Of all my friends who have done IVF, I don't think any of them has gotten bfp first cycle... That thought has sat in my head as food for thought when considering IVF. On one hand it makes me feel somewhat negative bcos it has made me feel that I should expect a first cycle to fail... Which isn't very positive a thought... But most have been successful on their second cycle.. Which makes me feel that perseverance is key. 

Take some time with ur mum, re-group & try again. Remember in the first week or so of treatment u said it was something u could keep trying quite easily??? Remember those positive thoughts x


----------



## Briss

Juniperjules, i know you are right and i will continue, what else is there for me to do. i know ladies are going through their 3 and 4 IVFs and get lucky finally, some not. Just feels so empty at the moment, it's a loss. strange to feel that way as strictly speaking i did not have anything to lose and yet it does feel like a loss.


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## Blythe

It is a loss. In feb 2012 I had a positive pregnancy test in the sat. I remember thinking we had done ok trying for just over a year! On the sun I took a digi fully expecting to see the magic words but alas not pregnant but still a fading line on ic. I went to drs on the mon who sent me straight to hospital to arrange booking in appt with midwife. He said given my age (39 then)I should cut every corner I could (knob). Got home brought new tests no lines. I felt the loss tremendously and not helped by getting my 12 week scan date confirmed weeks later through the post. 

Take all the time you require to process everything....the whole process seemed quite ok but the last week has been full on (I'm only your interweb buddy and I'm done in). You are very strong but you are certainly due a break soon. 

You deserve the very best :flower:


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## BBbliss

Briss, I was so sad to read the news... This has been such a long an painful week. You are lucky you have your mum to support you, take full advantage of it you need it. Just rest, you don't have to come up with a new plan today or tomorrow, it will come to you. I hope your DH is kind to you these next few days. This is as much your as it is his to morn... I know it really was only a promise, but to be so close... 

You do deserve all the best. Hugsxoxo


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## Clizard

Sorry to hear Briss, and you are right - what else is there to do but continue. Whatever may happen, there are a lot of people on here (having never met you!) that care x


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## Briss

Blythe, was it chemical then? How was your cycle after that? did it get back to normal on its own? My progesterone was really high this morning so I am going back to 2x 400 a day until Friday. I am just afraid my AF wont come until I quit progesterone and I cant stop until negative was confirmed. It's artificially extending my cycle and I think I have extra progesterone running in my blood which may interfere with ovulation next cycle. My DH thinks that maybe we should wait two cycles before going back but I cant imagine the next three months with no hope. His SA was appalling and he continued with the beer through the entire cycle and so it is getting worse. No hope for natural BFP.

Having gone through IVF and coming very close to being pregnant, I actually think that we should have moved to IVF much sooner. His SA were always rather bad, I do not know what i was hoping for.

natural IVF at Create was positive, having scans and bloods at harley street was rather handy. I do not feel physically exhausted just emotionally. Just feels like I am very unlucky :(


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## Blythe

My period came a day or two late. Like you i had a line exactly like you frer and then fading one on ic the next day. So it did implant but for whatever reason did not stick. I was pregnant then I wasn't. I felt a bit broken afterwards having wanted it so desperately. But I was back positively pursuing pregnancy within a couple of months. 

It is so very cruel particularly if you have gone through IVF. You are right about the IVF itself being positive. They successfully retrieved the egg and fertilised it. The other stuff is simply a miracle (sometimes happens, sometimes not) I'm not sure what we can do about that bit other than just keep going. I know you WILL get there in the end.


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## Briss

quite annoyingly my temp is up this morning although I decreased progesterone yesterday to twice a day. Dh suggested testing again just in case, a very fading line on CB. DH thought that the embryo was just trying to find a better place where to stick, bless him but I do not think it works that way. 

things are falling apart generally, DH took a day off to look for a flat, I think he is serious about moving out and it also looks like his job situation is not great and he started updating his CV. when is life going to get better I wonder


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## Jazzbird

Awww Briss - this is just so sad to read. I don't understand your OH - why is he moving out when you need him the most? And when job security is under threat. It seems nonsensical. 

You must go and see your mum or someone you trust to support you. 

Echoing what juniper said - we would all happily chat to you in person if you need someone. 

Xxx


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## Briss

Jazzbird, thank you very much for your support. I guess DH is going through the pain in his own way. I do not understand it myself tbh. 

DH said that we should consider doing conventional IVF. having gone through mild stimulation I find it really hard to imagine what it would be like to have full on stimulation with several follicles growing. One large follicle is sensitive enough even during scans. At least with this cycle I am hoping there was no damage done to my reproductive organs. I was really concerned with spotting though but I guess it's a sign of unsuccessful pregnancy in my case so as long as I can explain it I think it should not affect my future cycles. 

I am so weepy today, it comes and goes every few minutes


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## Juniperjules

Briss, it seems like a positive that ur DH would like to try normal IVF??? Maybe take some time to consider it?? I know u aren't keen, but try not to just outright tell him no or be too negative about it right off the bat. The fact that he suggested it shows that this is something he also really wants to happen. I guess at the end of the day, we all want that light at the end if the tunnel... Even ur DH. If he has suggested it then perhaps consider it for a time? Let him feel that he gets to have a say in this too. I know the men don't physically have to go thru wot we do, but I guess they suffer from insecurities & disappointment just as much as we do- they just may not always show it.. & then we think they are insensitive & not that bothered about wots happening. 

The flat hunting I'm sure is a defence mechanism- he's waiting for u to lose the plot! He's waiting for u too completely go to pieces & thinks he's gonna bear the brunt of it. So he's gearing himself up for u to be hopeless & inconsolable.. He's ready to make his escape....

U do need some time away I think. If u go, try & leave in a positive way- acknowledging that u need a break & to see ur mum & get some TLC. u are both struggling to cope with how all of this affects ur lives & relationship. He was possibly just as excited and hopeful of a bfp as u were. I know my dad only recently told my mum that it really hurt him every time she had a miscarriage (she had 4).. He said no one ever asked him how he felt- & at the time he took it on the chin. But the pain was real for him too. And he so wanted it all to work, to make things right for my mum- but he couldn't. Men like to fix things... But Some things just can't be fixed that easily. if u leave for a few days away, in a positive way it leaves things open for u to come home & start planning ur next move.


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## Briss

Juniperjules, thank you! I will certainly consider stimulated IVF. May be we do one at the same clinic, it's not full on stimulation, still a mild version but they aim for 6-7 eggs. We would know more once we had our review. It's hard to be just hanging there waiting for negative beta. I cant book my flights yet and get time off until I know for sure it's negative. there are some risks scarier than chemical I guess they want to rule it out before they let me go. 

I had cappuccino today! Finally I was struggling for 2 weeks with no coffee


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## Briss

Ladies, while going through the trauma of failing IVF it got me thinking, when I got my bfp I was actually scared (very deep down) because I realised I know nothing about pregnancy. I've been for ever and ever stuck in the TTC world and that's all I know. I've become over the years very good at TTC but that's all. One of the articles I recently come across was talking about the important of mindset and that also got me thinking that maybe we need to take our mind off TTC and towards the actual pregnancy. So I decided to put aside my extensive TTC library and buy some books on pregnancy. Maybe if I start accumulating knowledge on pregnancy that will change my mindset and then the body will follow? it might be complete nonsense but I'm going to try it anyway. because at the moment all I am thinking about is TTC, I need to break this pattern and start thinking outside of TTC. i cant go completely outside and start learning something random but pregnancy seems relevant and a good place to start. It's very scary actually because I never allow myself to watch childbirth/baby related stuff as it causes enormous pain, when LTTTC your first there is always underlying fear: what if you never need these skills or knowledge; what if you never get to experience that etc. I want to break through that fear and learn to think positively and believe that it's going to happen and soon. 

now, any suggestions on what are the best pregnancy books on the market? 

I am thinking of these:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Day-Day-Preg...pr_product_top

https://www.zitawest.com/buy/books/pr...FbDMtAodORoA7w

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Complete-Bab...iriam+Stoppard

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Pregnancy-ex...pr_product_top

https://www.amazon.co.uk/What-Expect-...pr_product_top

https://www.amazon.co.uk/What-Eat-Whe...?ie=UTF8&psc=1


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## BBbliss

Briss, that's brilliant! I'm of the though that: fake it till you make it! "If you build it they will come"and so on. I do that, I walk around feeling pregnant all the time. I rub my belly, talk to my future baby... I have to tell you sometimes I feel a presence and I get emotional. I know that little soul is just trying to jump in too as much as I want it. I believe in all that and I know as soon as I get it all in place. It will happen. I know it! 

If you always have that feeling of "I can't" you may get stuck there. 

I loved "what to expect ..." I read it All! In fact it may have saved my first born's life. My amniotic fluid was leaking at 36 weeks and had to be induced immediately. Had I not been reading that book I would have thought I was just "hot" down there.


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## Briss

BBbliss, thanks! I am definitely getting "what to expect ..." then, sounds important.


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## Jazzbird

Briss - I think it's fantastic that you are looking past ttc and reading about pregnancy. I'm quite a negative person by nature and have always felt that focusing on a good outcome will almost jinx it. But everything I've read about in hypnotherapy, neuro linguistic programming suggests that envisaging a good outcome in all aspects of your life will help you achieve your goal. I'm not suggesting that you can think yourself pregnant or overcome physical conception problems but merely thinking good thoughts will make you feel more relaxed, happy ... And this will increase your chances as you are relieving yourself of stress. 

I know I've mentioned hypnosis before but this is exactly the point of it. It's positive thinking but on a sub conscious level which is much faster and more effective at reprogramming your brain. My conception one actively encourages you to imagine holding your baby. 

I think it's amazing after all you've been through these past few weeks that your posts seem more positive now than I've ever read. 

Xxx


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## Briss

Jazzbird, thanks! I think it's a defence mechanism in me or something, in fact I cant even pass boots without thinking I need to buy more pregnancy test&#8230; no, I don&#8217;t, not anymore. I did not even bother testing this morning. come what may. I am emotionally completely drained. 

I started TTC thinking positively but could not sustain it for over two years. Now I just think I've been negative for too long and it made sense while we TTC naturally as our chances were very slim, I was really just hoping for a miracle. With IVF I think we are not doing that badly and we have a real chance. 

I totally understand what you are thinking that focusing on a good outcome will almost jinx it. I find that I usually get positive outcome before I have a chance to obsess and come up with various theoretical outcomes (both positive and negative) in my head but when I do have time to think about what may come then the result is usually something else something I did not think of, like this time I thought it could be positive or negative but I did not think it could be "low positive = negative" but basically neither. when you have two weeks it's hard not to think though 

Blythe, knowing your situation I really wanted to give you hope that you can be successful on your first attempt at natural IVF but it seems quite rare. Even DH is now talking about conventional IVF: more eggs more chances. Still, I am not convinced and I do not want to be an egg farm. I'd rather do 3 natural IVFs than 1 stimulated tbh. I think cost wise it would be similar. 
I scheduled my review appointment in November. I have so many questions. spotting has been a real disappointment.

DH could not find a flat yesterday and was very disappointed with the rent. I thought we were paying a small fortune for our flat but apparently these days even studio is more expensive. I am hoping that will put him off :)


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## Blythe

Briss - you may be onto something there. when i was doing my fertility yoga she always talking about pregnancy as something that was going to happen...so working on back muscles to support "you when you become pregnant" etc etc i felt so positive i even went out and brought an outfit for a baby girl [I have since ended up giving to a friend for her little girl though]. i have brought a few books on pregnancy from second hand shops but have found it difficult during the last two years to pick them up. [you would have thought having gone through a pregnancy i would know stuff but i cannot remember a jot, how it feels, what happens when etc etc] 

But its all about mindset and just because i have been trying to 3 years does not mean it wont happen. its all so bloody random i probably have as much chance of getting pregnant this month as i did the first month of trying. surely it is a better way to lead a life thinking of possibilities in the future than the hurt of the past. the past is suffocating :(

i really like this girl linked below....some good inspirational blogs and great download for 'manifesting baby'. She did a good bit on why drug addict get pregnant no problem but us girls who make all these changes still struggle. 

https://heidibrockmyre.com


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## Blythe

i have a presentation coming up - it does not matter if i am familiar with the subject or not - i just fall to pieces. i have not done one for about 4 years and even thinking about it makes me want to go to the loo! i find it hard to speak and control my heartbeat - it feels like my ears are throbbing and everyone can see me shaking :(

Perhaps i need to do some positive thinking about this and try and control myself. its nuts as i am in my 40s but so nervous about things like this.


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## Briss

Blythe, I can completely relate re presentation, I have one more training session in November and my knees feel weak when I think about it. I can completely go to pieces and not being able to say anything unless I deal with my nerves. So I usually try and pretend to be smb else, like acting sort of thing. Somebody attractive and with confidence. it also helps when you think that everyone in the audience is inferior to you. I know it's not very nice but it makes it easier and gives you confidence.


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## Briss

Blythe said:


> i really like this girl linked below....some good inspirational blogs and great download for 'manifesting baby'. She did a good bit on why drug addict get pregnant no problem but us girls who make all these changes still struggle.
> 
> https://heidibrockmyre.com

Blythe thank you! I just stared reading and I already love it!

"You've gone to extraordinary lengths. You've stopped drinking coffee and alcohol, you're taking a truckload of vitamins, you're exercising, getting poked by needles, thinking positive and having sex relentlessly. You live, breathe, and eat fertility. Literally." - YES!!!


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## Blythe

Briss - i wondered if you help me out....i just wanted to know about appts at create. Despite saying i would step back from TTC i am considering pursuing my one and only round of IVF ahead of christmas although could well change mind by end of the day. i still have the astrologists words "it would be a complete waste of money' ringing in my ears but thinking it might just be a load of crap.

For your first appt does you DH have to be there? As mine has just started a new job i am keen to minimise impact on his schedule.

PS - thanks for your words re presentations. im just terrified of the darn things...so silly. i find it hard to articulate what i want to say at the best of times without the pressure of hundreds of eyes looking at me!


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## Briss

I was on my own most times, DH showed up for the first scan (20 min late and I was already in there talking to the doc) and EC. I think as long as your DH signs forms and provides sample he is not necessary. 

Just got a confirmation my beta dropped to 1.7, anything below 5 is officially negative so I got my closure and can stop progesterone now


----------



## Briss

to add insult to my injury, a secretary brought her baby to the office to show off and it has been crying out loud as I was receiving the news of my negative beta. Sometimes I do wonder if there is someone up there making sure your life sucks!


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## Blythe

i expect after getting the fading line after -B there is still hope for a miracle. you do now have that closure which is so necessary to begin thinking ahead. i am so sorry this round did not work for you...you have surely had a long journey to get here but i very much hope a much shorter journey ahead.

thank you for comments on DH/appts....so i guess mine could just turn up for EC and thats would be enough?


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## Briss

thank you. we scheduled our review appointment in November to discuss what could have gone wrong and what our next step is. if my next cycle is back to normal then we can try again in a cycle. 

I think theoretically he is just needed for the forms and EC. they may ask to see his passport but they are not well organised so I brought our papers only for ET, they did not ask before EC and I did not offer. I see most women come on their own.

I am off to visit my mum tomorrow. 

I thought I took it really well but 20 min on and I have most terrible headache out of the blue&#8230;


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## Blythe

Jazzbird, JuniperJules, Gingmg, BreakingDawn, BBBliss & Bliss - hope you are all well ladies :flower:


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## gingmg

Tbanks. Looks like injectables were not my answer. Waiting for AF, though I have no idea if it will start before or not till after I stop taking the progesterone? Blood test tues, so will stop after that. Should have been today, but we went away for the weekend, so I pushed the test back. I will give injectables one last shot before Ivf. Although, I do think its kinda pointless, I will.stick to our original plan.


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## Jazzbird

Hello girls. Hope you are having a lovely weekend. I'm ovulating this weekend although I'm not temping - just trying to persuade DH for bd. Managed last night but tested + on opk yesterday so feel we should try again tmrw am. But he has no energy so looks like its just going to be one shot this month. 

Hope everyone is feeling ok


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## Breaking Dawn

Hi everyone 

Sorry I have been MIA...we have been soooooo busy I'm exhausted....things are going to settle down by the end of the month. TTC has been on the back burner which actually feels nice to not think about it constantly.

I spent the last little while catching up on the thread...

Briss...I am so sorry for your chemical :hugs: I had one and I know how it feels to see that line, the hope excitement and then it's gone. The silver lining....your egg and DHs sperm can make a baby....you are one step closer!!

Juniper...I read about you and your OH and wish I could reach out and give you a hug. :hugs:

How is everyone else?


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## Tigermom

Plenora said:


> Has anyone tried accupuncture and or herbs or known anyone that has and then got pregnant? Just going for my second session tomorrow night and really hoping it helps! Also taking disgusting tasting herbs twice a day. So far I've noticed improvement to my digestion and as I'm now at the midway point yesterday I had LOTS of EWCM. So much so I was shocked. Its never been so abundant. Its no magic pill I know as sperm still has to reach egg but I think it just helps to know I'm taking some sort of action and not just sitting around waiting!
> 
> Any positive stories out there?No negative stuff though I'm thinking that even if this works like a placebo then that'll do for me!

It sounds like it is already making positive changes in you. As you said, nothing is a magic pill; there are so many factors in getting pregnant. I will come out and say that I am an acupuncturist, and I specialize in fertility, so this won't come across as objective by any means. 

I have seen over 25 women get pregnant by only changing the fact that they came to acupuncture. 18 of them were diagnosed with "infertility". Just keep taking those awful herbs because they are key. Be honest about every detail with your acupuncturist, and take note of any changes in your body. It sounds like you are on the right path though!!! Good luck and baby dust! :)


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## Blythe

gingmg said:


> Tbanks. Looks like injectables were not my answer. Waiting for AF, though I have no idea if it will start before or not till after I stop taking the progesterone? Blood test tues, so will stop after that. Should have been today, but we went away for the weekend, so I pushed the test back. I will give injectables one last shot before Ivf. Although, I do think its kinda pointless, I will.stick to our original plan.

I'm sorry to hear this. I have been thinking about iui before IVF. I know when I go for consultation they will say there's little point but I will insist. Some women return to iui after IVF and it works. All so bloody random. Keep being strong. :flower:


----------



## jen379

Tigermom said:


> Plenora said:
> 
> 
> Has anyone tried accupuncture and or herbs or known anyone that has and then got pregnant? Just going for my second session tomorrow night and really hoping it helps! Also taking disgusting tasting herbs twice a day. So far I've noticed improvement to my digestion and as I'm now at the midway point yesterday I had LOTS of EWCM. So much so I was shocked. Its never been so abundant. Its no magic pill I know as sperm still has to reach egg but I think it just helps to know I'm taking some sort of action and not just sitting around waiting!
> 
> Any positive stories out there?No negative stuff though I'm thinking that even if this works like a placebo then that'll do for me!
> 
> It sounds like it is already making positive changes in you. As you said, nothing is a magic pill; there are so many factors in getting pregnant. I will come out and say that I am an acupuncturist, and I specialize in fertility, so this won't come across as objective by any means.
> 
> I have seen over 25 women get pregnant by only changing the fact that they came to acupuncture. 18 of them were diagnosed with "infertility". Just keep taking those awful herbs because they are key. Be honest about every detail with your acupuncturist, and take note of any changes in your body. It sounds like you are on the right path though!!! Good luck and baby dust! :)Click to expand...

should i be concerned that my acup doesn't give me any herbs to clear up some cycle symptoms that i've discussed with him such as dark bleeding and clots during period. before i had my last mc, he said that there were lots of things we could do but now that i have resumed acup treatments, he doesn't suggest i take anything else--although his waiting room is full of supplements/herbs/teas. i just don't understand. i'm 42 and tired of waiting for things for work out with just acup. any suggestions?


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## BBbliss

Hi girls :)

Good to hear everyone's updates :)

I'm gearing up for O, should be Tuesday or so. Temps never really went below cover till today, but with the move and sleeping at the new house now I can't really go by my chart. Oh!!! I have to share this with you girls! Well, months ago I told DF to try some supplements for his ED and he didn't believe they would work, so now that he didn't have a choice and started to take them to improve SA, guess what? This past couple of weeks he has not needed his prescribed meds and yesterday he admitted "you were right, again" and had a big smile on his face, and so did I ;)


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## Briss

BBbliss, this is so great that supps are working! 

jen, I had 3 practitioners and all of them insisted on me and my DH taking the herbs. they think herbs are even more important than acu in TCM.


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## Jazzbird

Hi jen379 - I would say exactly what you said above to your acupuncturist. There is probably a good reason - perhaps he feels he doesn't want to burden you with the cost of herbs and feels acupuncture is the right way forwards.

Just be open and honest - there is usually a good reason for the selected treatment strategy. I'm an acupuncturist but not trained in herbs. There are lots of acupuncturists who don't offer herbs as a treatment and it can definitely work as a stand alone treatment. 

Also treatment changes through the cycle - if he were to prescribe lots of clearing herbs to move blood - but then you had some underlying weakness - it would be too strong a treatment. You can't control the herbs once the patient has left the treatment. Hope that makes sense. 

Having said all that herbs are usually a great addition to treatment particularly if there is a long standing weakness that needs building gradually and consistently. 

Have faith - most acupuncturists are not money motivated - they just want to help their patients get better. 

Just ask lots if questions - don't be afraid to question why they are or aren't doing something.


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## Jazzbird

Really struggling today with another pregnancy announcement. Feel so low!


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## Blythe

Ugggggg :( I hate those announcements. They make my heart ache. Hang on in there you time is coming.:hugs:


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## jen379

loathe those announcements! makes me cringe too. you are not alone. 

thanks for the advice ladies! i have another appt on Friday and i'm going to talk to him yet again. i really feel like my endo needs some attn considering the evidence from my bleeds (will spare you all the specific details). 

jazz, you are right. i know he isn't money motivated and believes making slow and gradual changes. however, just doing accup doesn't seem to be enough. i think i will also check into EPO and castor oil. i've heard a lot about both.


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## Jazzbird

Jen - has he mentioned before why he doesn't prescribe you herbs?

Thanks ladies for your support, I'd feel so alone if it wasn't for this thread! 

Xxx


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## gingmg

Jazzbird- you are not alone! We all are here with you anytime you need to talk or vent. Our time is coming, I just know it.


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## BBbliss

gingmg said:


> Jazzbird- you are not alone! We all are here with you anytime you need to talk or vent. Our time is coming, I just know it.

We are all here for eachother! Our time IS coming, btw I'm ovulation today :happydance: catching that egg!!!


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## Kat S

Hi, Everyone!

I just had IUI #8 and acupuncture appt #2. The first acupuncture appt she did electroacupuncture on the pins over my ovaries and prescribed "Warm Menses" herbs to warm up my uterus. For appt #2 after my IUI, she put pins in my lower back and performed moxibustion to improve chances of implantation.

I'll keep you all posted!


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## Jazzbird

You guys are so sweet 

Thanks Gingmg - I agree our time must be coming!

BBbliss - you're my ovulation buddy! I ovulated yesterday I think although I've stopped temping this month.


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## Jazzbird

Hi kat - so pleased you are giving acu a try. Keep us posted on your progress!


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## jen379

Jazzbird said:


> Jen - has he mentioned before why he doesn't prescribe you herbs?
> 
> Thanks ladies for your support, I'd feel so alone if it wasn't for this thread!
> 
> Xxx

Jazz, When I ask him or tell him about the clots I'm having during my period, he plays it down and acts as though the accup should even it out eventually. It just doesn't seem like it is changing from period to period. Any thoughts?


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## Jazzbird

Clots are as a result usually of blood stagnation. Basically old blood that needs help to move it. Are your periods painful and heavy? Is this how they have always been or is it a recent development? If it's recent - have you had a trigger life event that might have started it? How long have you been having acupuncture? It takes a good 8 treatments to start seeing improvements. 

You can definitely treat blood stagnation with acupuncture. You can treat almost anything with either acupuncture, herbs or a combination. 

I would ask him this: "why don't you prescribe herbs to me? I'm interested in understanding more about my treatment and would like to understand why you think acupuncture on its own is the right treatment".

Good not to sound too accusatory - but if you emphasise that you want to learn and understand - I'm sure he'll be happy to explain what he's doing. He probably has a really sound reason.


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## gingmg

jazzbird- My periods are ALWAYS painful, heavy, and clotty. After a few months of weekly acupuncture, the clots got better but I haven't gone now in a couple of months and I am back to clots. We are in the process of trying to buy a house, so can't really afford acupuncture anymore like we used to. Is there something else that may help with this? It's still possible, though, to get pregnant with cycles like this right?
I wonder if adding baby aspirin might help, I've wanted to do this for awhile, but the clinic said no because they think it only helps if you have a certain clotting disorder. At my yearly physical a few months ago, they noticed I have low platelets, and have now for a few years in a row, so am finally getting worked up for what that could mean. Wondering if there isn't some kind of clotting issue, but don't know anything yet. I read Vit B deficiency can cause low platelets, so Ive added a complex B vitamin to my daily routine, and my latest repeat platelets were better, still low, but better.
What else can I do besides acupuncture to help with the clots? I already do yoga, maybe do more of it? I might add the baby aspirin despite what the clinic says, I doubt it could hurt anything.

Hi to the all the new people!


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## Jazzbird

Hi Gingmg - hmmmm I'm not sure. I shall consult my textbooks  I think movement is good. Do you do much exercise? I will need to research this one though. 

There are low cost acupuncture clinics - student clinics all over the uk. One of my patients couldn't afford to pay and our patient list was so low I managed to persuade the college to let her come for free. 

I'll get back to you!


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## jen379

Jazzbird said:


> Clots are as a result usually of blood stagnation. Basically old blood that needs help to move it. Are your periods painful and heavy? Is this how they have always been or is it a recent development? If it's recent - have you had a trigger life event that might have started it? How long have you been having acupuncture? It takes a good 8 treatments to start seeing improvements.
> 
> You can definitely treat blood stagnation with acupuncture. You can treat almost anything with either acupuncture, herbs or a combination.
> 
> I would ask him this: "why don't you prescribe herbs to me? I'm interested in understanding more about my treatment and would like to understand why you think acupuncture on its own is the right treatment".
> 
> Good not to sound too accusatory - but if you emphasise that you want to learn and understand - I'm sure he'll be happy to explain what he's doing. He probably has a really sound reason.

Jazz, thx for talking to me about this. i really appreciate it. my periods are not painful but they are heavier than they use to be...say a year a go. i use to have a period, start and finish, in one day or day and a half. this was before my first pregnancy and miscarriage. months after that i started accup. then i became preg again, a yr later but it was a blighted ovum. since i had had 3 scans to confirm no heartbeat, i had accup to clear everything, hoping to initiate natural mc, which happened a week later. i'm a teacher and didn't want it to start while at school. i worried about that constantly while on my holiday break. then, i didn't do accup until about three months ago, twice a cycle, which is what he recommends. 

i've never had period issues, and never had the clotting like it is (even though I have had endometriosis all along but didn't know until about 5 yrs ago) until these 2 miscarriages. 

i guess i thought the accup would improve the clotting like he says and thus the stagnant blood flow. i don't wear a tampon anymore and with the supplements and accup thought things would be better. i know i need to get more motivated to exercise--as it would help too. 

i did just order castor oil and it will be here in a week. hoping this will help too.


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## Tigermom

jen379 said:


> Tigermom said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Plenora said:
> 
> 
> Has anyone tried accupuncture and or herbs or known anyone that has and then got pregnant? Just going for my second session tomorrow night and really hoping it helps! Also taking disgusting tasting herbs twice a day. So far I've noticed improvement to my digestion and as I'm now at the midway point yesterday I had LOTS of EWCM. So much so I was shocked. Its never been so abundant. Its no magic pill I know as sperm still has to reach egg but I think it just helps to know I'm taking some sort of action and not just sitting around waiting!
> 
> Any positive stories out there?No negative stuff though I'm thinking that even if this works like a placebo then that'll do for me!
> 
> It sounds like it is already making positive changes in you. As you said, nothing is a magic pill; there are so many factors in getting pregnant. I will come out and say that I am an acupuncturist, and I specialize in fertility, so this won't come across as objective by any means.
> 
> I have seen over 25 women get pregnant by only changing the fact that they came to acupuncture. 18 of them were diagnosed with "infertility". Just keep taking those awful herbs because they are key. Be honest about every detail with your acupuncturist, and take note of any changes in your body. It sounds like you are on the right path though!!! Good luck and baby dust! :)Click to expand...
> 
> should i be concerned that my acup doesn't give me any herbs to clear up some cycle symptoms that i've discussed with him such as dark bleeding and clots during period. before i had my last mc, he said that there were lots of things we could do but now that i have resumed acup treatments, he doesn't suggest i take anything else--although his waiting room is full of supplements/herbs/teas. i just don't understand. i'm 42 and tired of waiting for things for work out with just acup. any suggestions?Click to expand...

I am sorry for just getting back to you. I wasn't subscribed to this thread, and it was tough for me to find it again. 

Every acupuncturist is different. I am sorry that it seems he is not meeting your needs. Acupuncture isn't for everyone, and just like everything else, there isn't 100% success. I would suggest: 1) bringing this up one more time if you want to stick with him. 2) if you are still interested in acupuncture, I would look for someone who has fertility or women's health, or pregnancy in their name and/or specialty. As most of us have learned on this site, there are millions of things to learn about fertility, so if someone doesn't spend most of their extra studies on this topic, they can be good but not wonderful. I don't know if that is the case here, but it is something to think about.

As for not treating the clots: Clots are a big thing we look at in acupuncture, but we wouldn't want to put blood-movers your herbs because it could theoretically cause an early miscarriage. That very same diagnosis of "blood stagnation" and then treatment "moving blood" are not safe to do in early pregnancy. Maybe those are his concerns if that is the part of your cycle he isn't addressing. After a clear ovulation, I treat a woman as pregnant until I know she isn't. That means gentle tonification, nourishment, and no radical treatments. That can be where he is coming from.

I hope this was helpful. Again, I am so sorry for just seeing this!!!

I do want to stress that I don't know your acupuncturist, and I am not insulting him at all. It sounds like you are seeking something more than he is providing. 

Good luck, hun <3 :)


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## jen379

in asking him questions, like you said, maybe i could also ask in way to inquire knowledge about what's going on and what does he see that doesn't warrant herbs???


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## jen379

Tigermom said:


> jen379 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tigermom said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Plenora said:
> 
> 
> Has anyone tried accupuncture and or herbs or known anyone that has and then got pregnant? Just going for my second session tomorrow night and really hoping it helps! Also taking disgusting tasting herbs twice a day. So far I've noticed improvement to my digestion and as I'm now at the midway point yesterday I had LOTS of EWCM. So much so I was shocked. Its never been so abundant. Its no magic pill I know as sperm still has to reach egg but I think it just helps to know I'm taking some sort of action and not just sitting around waiting!
> 
> Any positive stories out there?No negative stuff though I'm thinking that even if this works like a placebo then that'll do for me!
> 
> It sounds like it is already making positive changes in you. As you said, nothing is a magic pill; there are so many factors in getting pregnant. I will come out and say that I am an acupuncturist, and I specialize in fertility, so this won't come across as objective by any means.
> 
> I have seen over 25 women get pregnant by only changing the fact that they came to acupuncture. 18 of them were diagnosed with "infertility". Just keep taking those awful herbs because they are key. Be honest about every detail with your acupuncturist, and take note of any changes in your body. It sounds like you are on the right path though!!! Good luck and baby dust! :)Click to expand...
> 
> should i be concerned that my acup doesn't give me any herbs to clear up some cycle symptoms that i've discussed with him such as dark bleeding and clots during period. before i had my last mc, he said that there were lots of things we could do but now that i have resumed acup treatments, he doesn't suggest i take anything else--although his waiting room is full of supplements/herbs/teas. i just don't understand. i'm 42 and tired of waiting for things for work out with just acup. any suggestions?Click to expand...
> 
> I am sorry for just getting back to you. I wasn't subscribed to this thread, and it was tough for me to find it again.
> 
> Every acupuncturist is different. I am sorry that it seems he is not meeting your needs. Acupuncture isn't for everyone, and just like everything else, there isn't 100% success. I would suggest: 1) bringing this up one more time if you want to stick with him. 2) if you are still interested in acupuncture, I would look for someone who has fertility or women's health, or pregnancy in their name and/or specialty. As most of us have learned on this site, there are millions of things to learn about fertility, so if someone doesn't spend most of their extra studies on this topic, they can be good but not wonderful. I don't know if that is the case here, but it is something to think about.
> 
> As for not treating the clots: Clots are a big thing we look at in acupuncture, but we wouldn't want to put blood-movers your herbs because it could theoretically cause an early miscarriage. That very same diagnosis of "blood stagnation" and then treatment "moving blood" are not safe to do in early pregnancy. Maybe those are his concerns if that is the part of your cycle he isn't addressing. After a clear ovulation, I treat a woman as pregnant until I know she isn't. That means gentle tonification, nourishment, and no radical treatments. That can be where he is coming from.
> 
> I hope this was helpful. Again, I am so sorry for just seeing this!!!
> 
> I do want to stress that I don't know your acupuncturist, and I am not insulting him at all. It sounds like you are seeking something more though.
> 
> Good luck, hun.Click to expand...

thanks Tiger, i do really like him but want to make sure i'm doing everything possible. sometimes i overthink things and just need to relax!


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## Tigermom

That is a great idea! 

I would definitely try that suggestion by Jazzbird: "why don't you prescribe herbs to me? I'm interested in understanding more about my treatment and would like to understand why you think acupuncture on its own is the right treatment".

Also, herbs when it comes to fertility can be tough, expensive and a difficult area. Typically, there can be 2 formulas: one for follicular phase, and one for luteal phase (as both require different support). You might even have a special one for your menses, but that is a rare case. Many people get annoyed when they have to invest in two different formulas, and he might be taking that into account. 

I think asking about it in the form of wanting to learn will open the discussion up. *But* remember that it is your health and your money, and you need to feel confident in your treatment and practitioner. Don't feel bad for asking. He is probably very happy to answer questions. I love when my patients get involved in the process. 

haha it is ok to overthink your health care! I'm right there with you! Very Type A, don't like to sit back, I need to be in-the-know :)
Keep us posted :)


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## Jazzbird

I echo what tigermom says - there are lots of acupuncturists with specialist fertility knowledge. Check the British acupuncture council website for locating ones in your area (if you are in uk!)

Also - whilst you can't prescribe blood moving herbs in the second half of the cycle - you can in the first half. Jayne lyttleton has written a very comprehensive book on fertility TCM and definitely treads blood stasis with acupuncture and herbs.

I would still go back to him and ask why he hasn't prescribed them to you. There may be something in your diagnosis that we aren't aware of that has made him decide not to use herbs


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## Kat S

You guys are making me wonder if I should be taking the same herbs after ovulation that I was taking before. My acupuncturist asked if I was taking them like prescribed and I said I was and that was that. Hrm.


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## Jazzbird

Hi Kat - what are you taking?

Everyone is different although generally speaking the first half is supporting kidney yin & blood & second half is for supporting kidney yang. 

You can get personal prescriptions for every part of the cycle. There are some to encourage complete discharge of the uterine lining day 1-3, kidney yin & blood 4-12, promote ovulation day 12-14, kidney yang second half. 

But there are variations on the formulas depending on your own personal diagnosis.


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## Tigermom

Each person is different in their needs. Some people actually might need to take the same prescription for their whole cycle if their diagnosis supports it. I have a women that finally became pregnant after 3 cycles with me. She just took kidney yang support because her temps were too cold before. The whole cycle was below 97 almost. Each person is unique in their needs. I think that is why acupuncture can be so beautiful!

I think my post was unclear. I am sorry about that. Yes, it is safe to take blood movers in the follicular phase. That is correct. After ovulation is when a women typically are treated as pregnant, especially when TTC. Sorry for the confusion :)

Good luck to all you lovely ladies!!! :dust: and :bfp: wishes for you!!!!


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## Kat S

Jazz bird, I'm taking "warm menses". I guess I'm cold! Lol!

Tiger mom, are the herbs I'm taking "blood movers"?


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## Tigermom

Let me make sure it is the same "warm menses" as the Chinese we learned in school. Hahah we all had to learn the Chinese names of the prescriptions. 

If your bottle also says "wen jing tang" somewhere on it, then yes. Yours contains blood movers :)

A wonderful formula. Any woman can really get benefit from it, even if they aren't very cold. Lots of food-therapy in it: cinnamon, ginseng, ginger and more.

I should say that I won't infer your diagnosis or anything because I don't want to overstep your acupuncturist's treatment. I just wanted to let you know that it is really a yummy one to take :)


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## Juniperjules

Hi girls, am in a strange place today. According to usual dates etc, I should Ov today- but have had no CM to speak of this week. Very strange. I usually have lots. I admit I haven't been drinking much water as I have been in recent months... But I've always had decent CM even when I forget to drink much water. OH had wanted to 'try' this month, but so far no BD. we're supposedly gonna try this morning.. But I'm feeling it won't happen. We had a very big fight Tuesday nite- but it someway it was good, bcos I ended up so upset (like really sobbing where u almost can't breathe), & my OH ended up saying some things to me that I probably needed to hear. And he also said some wonderful things too. All in all it was kind of traumatic but positive at the same time. 

However having said that, I think Oct may be a bust- the first month since April with no chance at all of ttc. And it just makes me feel more determined that we have to push forward with IVF ASAP. I've started having weird thoughts about IVF, but I am forcing myself to keep some perspective. I've always felt very good about IVF, no huge concerns or doubts apart from obvious fears of failure etc.. But in the last few days I've started worrying about whether I will always feel like a failure & a fraud bcos we couldn't just conceive naturally- on top of the other issues we've had lately... Like I'm forcing something to happen that maybe shouldn't. I know it's paranoia & makes me sound sooooo weird. 

And then yesterday 2 little IVF miracles were born who have reminded me that it's only the end result that matters. My best friend from childhood had twin boys yesterday afternoon. She is 3 weeks younger than me, 39 in December & they are IVF babies. I just saw a photo of them... Absolute perfection... Twice over ; ) 

....and I feel that familiar ache of being so very happy for her, but sad & jealous for myself. I'm telling myself to keep looking at their photo whenever IVF doubts creep in..


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## Kat S

Tigermom said:


> Let me make sure it is the same "warm menses" as the Chinese we learned in school. Hahah we all had to learn the Chinese names of the prescriptions.
> 
> If your bottle also says "wen jing tang" somewhere on it, then yes. Yours contains blood movers :)
> 
> A wonderful formula. Any woman can really get benefit from it, even if they aren't very cold. Lots of food-therapy in it: cinnamon, ginseng, ginger and more.
> 
> I should say that I won't infer your diagnosis or anything because I don't want to overstep your acupuncturist's treatment. I just wanted to let you know that it is really a yummy one to take :)

It says the Chinese name is "Wen Jing Pian". I suppose that's something different!

Here is the exact product: https://www.activeherb.com/wenjing/


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## jen379

Juniperjules said:


> Hi girls, am in a strange place today. According to usual dates etc, I should Ov today- but have had no CM to speak of this week. Very strange. I usually have lots. I admit I haven't been drinking much water as I have been in recent months... But I've always had decent CM even when I forget to drink much water. OH had wanted to 'try' this month, but so far no BD. we're supposedly gonna try this morning.. But I'm feeling it won't happen. We had a very big fight Tuesday nite- but it someway it was good, bcos I ended up so upset (like really sobbing where u almost can't breathe), & my OH ended up saying some things to me that I probably needed to hear. And he also said some wonderful things too. All in all it was kind of traumatic but positive at the same time.
> 
> However having said that, I think Oct may be a bust- the first month since April with no chance at all of ttc. And it just makes me feel more determined that we have to push forward with IVF ASAP. I've started having weird thoughts about IVF, but I am forcing myself to keep some perspective. I've always felt very good about IVF, no huge concerns or doubts apart from obvious fears of failure etc.. But in the last few days I've started worrying about whether I will always feel like a failure & a fraud bcos we couldn't just conceive naturally- on top of the other issues we've had lately... Like I'm forcing something to happen that maybe shouldn't. I know it's paranoia & makes me sound sooooo weird.
> 
> And then yesterday 2 little IVF miracles were born who have reminded me that it's only the end result that matters. My best friend from childhood had twin boys yesterday afternoon. She is 3 weeks younger than me, 39 in December & they are IVF babies. I just saw a photo of them... Absolute perfection... Twice over ; )
> 
> ....and I feel that familiar ache of being so very happy for her, but sad & jealous for myself. I'm telling myself to keep looking at their photo whenever IVF doubts creep in..

Juniper, everything you've said i have felt in the last several months. forcing something to happen, terrible arguments that produce those blah feelings. oh, i hate those arguments. i'm so sorry and really understand where you're coming from. :hugs:

do you mind if i ask, why ivf? maybe in your signature or you said before. sorry to ask you to repeat info. are there issues that prevent natural? other than our age bracket??


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## BBbliss

Juniper, maybe O didn't happen yet and you'll still have time to catch it! I thought I Oed yesterday then my temp was still not up today so I think I Oed today. Maybe the stress is affecting your body and that's why you didn't notice the CM. 

I too have weird feeling about IVF, and I'm trying everything I can before I go there. My poor DF had to BD twice yesterday and then I told him I didn't O yet. 

I do think you should try naturally first and listen to your intuition, they could be those weird thoughts, there's no reason you can't get pregnant naturally... I'm glad you and your DH are getting somewhere now, bringing a new life into the world puts a lot of strain in a relationship and maybe this is what you needed to make your bond stronger. I just hope when it does happen that you are in a good place, for your health and the baby's ... I wish all the best for you juniper


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## Briss

All three docs that I've been to prescribed the same herb formula before and after ovulation. I mean they all had different formulas but they did not vary throughout the cycle. It was never tailored to suit my cycle. It might be because it largely intended to clear excess heat and liver stagnation. 

afm, am being constantly bombarded by bad news. everything is just getting worse. It's been at least 3 years of constant bad news, I cant take it anymore. I have no energy or strength. I feel like I've been beaten. Constant arguments with DH and his beer &#8211; I cry and am in distress almost daily, his SA is getting worse and yet no sign that he is going to stop with the beer, failing IVf, now my AMH came even lower than before it dropped from 1.38 to 0.92 in 8 months &#8211; I am officially in the menopause zone! My scan showed some cyst on my cervix &#8211; what's it about? Is it a side effect of ET? plus cysts on both ovaries. 

I am going back to calorie counting for a couple of weeks. We cant conceive naturally with low SA that's clear and I need to occupy my mind with something while I am waiting for our next IVF otherwise I am not even sure how I am going to cope. I tried everything I could think of before I went for IVF, now I seriously think I wasted my time. with AMh dropping down every month I feel I should not have wasted almost entire year on TCM, vitamins etc. Because it did not stop or even slowed the clock, it's ticking away and really fast judging by my constantly increasing FSH and dropping AMH. it's just so hard and has been hard for so long and it seems like it's just getting harder cos I age and things get worse. 

Sorry for being so negative, it's been too long&#8230; I feel like I am trapped because nothing I've done helped anything, nothing is improving on the contrary it's just getting worse whatever I do. quitting is not an option for me so I have no choice but to carry on in this constant misery watching things to get worse or fail&#8230;.


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## Jazzbird

Briss - so so sorry. All this bad news must feel like a kick every time. I'm not surprised you feel worn down. It's more than anyone can handle. 

Last time you talked about your AMH it was much better than you thought it was because of us and uk measurements. 

I think AMH is not set in stone and responds to environmental stimulus. I wonder if ivf drugs temporarily set it back. 

As for your oh - I just don't understand him. Wondering if he needs professional help with his drinking. 

Sending you oodles of hugs. Xxx


----------



## Blythe

Briss said:


> All three docs that I've been to prescribed the same herb formula before and after ovulation. I mean they all had different formulas but they did not vary throughout the cycle. It was never tailored to suit my cycle. It might be because it largely intended to clear excess heat and liver stagnation.
> 
> afm, am being constantly bombarded by bad news. everything is just getting worse. It's been at least 3 years of constant bad news, I cant take it anymore. I have no energy or strength. I feel like I've been beaten. Constant arguments with DH and his beer  I cry and am in distress almost daily, his SA is getting worse and yet no sign that he is going to stop with the beer, failing IVf, now my AMH came even lower than before it dropped from 1.38 to 0.92 in 8 months  I am officially in the menopause zone! My scan showed some cyst on my cervix  what's it about? Is it a side effect of ET? plus cysts on both ovaries.
> 
> I am going back to calorie counting for a couple of weeks. We cant conceive naturally with low SA that's clear and I need to occupy my mind with something while I am waiting for our next IVF otherwise I am not even sure how I am going to cope. I tried everything I could think of before I went for IVF, now I seriously think I wasted my time. with AMh dropping down every month I feel I should not have wasted almost entire year on TCM, vitamins etc. Because it did not stop or even slowed the clock, it's ticking away and really fast judging by my constantly increasing FSH and dropping AMH. it's just so hard and has been hard for so long and it seems like it's just getting harder cos I age and things get worse.
> 
> Sorry for being so negative, it's been too long I feel like I am trapped because nothing I've done helped anything, nothing is improving on the contrary it's just getting worse whatever I do. quitting is not an option for me so I have no choice but to carry on in this constant misery watching things to get worse or fail.


What is your amh on the uk scale? Convert it and it's not so depressing......although I know it is distressing to see those numbers change. 

I watched an inspiring video last night where she interviews a psychic on that Heidi brockmere site I linked the other day....if you get a chance watch it and let me know what you think. there are a bunch of psychics operating out of selfridges now and I'm tempted. How sad!

Are you going ahead with another modified natural next month? 

:hugs:


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## Juniperjules

Briss, I also thought you had figured out that ur AMH was actually pretty good recently??? Wasn't that you? It was like 9 m/mol or something in the UK scale??? Are u saying its dropped that much already?? Or was it someone else that I'm confusing with you?? 

Briss, all I can say is keep hanging in there. I feel ur desperation. And I know how terrible u feel bcos I oscillate back and forth between complete & utter hopelessness & then feeling more positive literally from one day to the next. It's a completely terrifying way to live every day. In the last few weeks I've really seriously been trying to practice wot I preach to patients at work. Which is that we can't control everything (& I am a total controller), that we can't change wot happened yesterday so obsessing about it is completely wasted energy & just causes u more pain & agony. And tomoro is outside of everyone's control. All we really have is today, & we have to accept what we can & can't do today. My relationship has never felt so unstable in 18 yrs... But right now, I am having to tell myself that I cannot do anymore than I'm doing- and driving myself to insanity worrying about what is to come will not change anything. Infact, I'm now very very aware of the fact that my worry, anxiety & fear of 'what if', has been very damaging to my relationship. My OH told me Tuesday nite that I've become so negative & 'unhappy' that sometimes I'm like a zombie!!! AND he said he wonders sometimes if I even love him!!! I was so upset that he said these things to me- but it's all true. I've bcome so caught up in all my negative thoughts that I am potentially ruining my relationship. And, u know I'm a pretty insightful person (if I do say so myself ; ) and I deal with other people's moods, anxiety, depression & relationships every day professionally. But I hadn't realised how my internal feelings were affecting him. That he would EVER question my love for him!! It was a huge shocker to me!! 

My point is, that negative thoughts about things that are happening to us only serve to make things even worse... When we let them control us & overwhelm us- they can really destroy us. Interesting I only just read this below article about 'rumination' & mental health & how it affects us. I am absolutely 100% a ruminator- even though I'm constantly telling patients to try & avoid rumination I do it myself! But one thing I do know is that I never ever want to end up like the patients I work with... I will not allow myself to end up not being able to function or live a normal life bcos I'm crippled by my negative feelings, anxiety or depression. I love my OH, & I desperately want a baby- but I'm not prepared to destroy my mental health for it. I'm trying to tell myself every day that I can only control my own behaviour & choices. The rest is out of my hands. 

again, as the girls have said, just know that we're all here & we know how hard it is. But keep telling urself that u WILL get thru it X 

https://m.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-24444431


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## Jazzbird

Juniper - you are so right. You can't control what happens in life but you can control the way you react to it. 

I'm working hard to not get swept up in my emotions but to acknowledge them, investigate them and let them go when they are ready. It doesn't take away the pain but it helps me to keep moving forwards. 

Hugs to all the threads ladies. Some tough posts recently. We can get through it together. X


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## Juniperjules

jen379 said:


> Juniper, everything you've said i have felt in the last several months. forcing something to happen, terrible arguments that produce those blah feelings. oh, i hate those arguments. i'm so sorry and really understand where you're coming from. :hugs:
> 
> do you mind if i ask, why ivf? maybe in your signature or you said before. sorry to ask you to repeat info. are there issues that prevent natural? other than our age bracket??

Hi Jen, well basically we've been trying since about August last year. With a few breaks here & there. But solidly since April this year. We've had all the tests done & there's no obvious problem. We've been together for many many years & I've never had a pregnancy 'scare' even though I've never been on the pill. I always worried that I'd have trouble getting pregnant bcos my mum had lots of trouble. And my OH has trouble with 'finishing' during actual sex.... which is a problem when ttc!! So now I guess putting all of that together & turning 39 in December, I just want to cut to the chase & do IVF, I'm tired of it all. I could've tried iui but from wot I see & have read it doesn't really have a great success rate at this age, & I'd rather use that money to go towards IVF if our chances are better. My FS offered the IUI but said she has seen many women do iui bcos they feel ivf is too much to jump straight into.. only to do it 2-3 times & end up doing ivf anyway. my FS is fantastic, & has a fantastic reputation for getting women pregnant who have tried other clinics & have all sorts of issues. so i respect her opinion. I have had many friends do IVF over the past 5-10yrs so to me it doesn't feel so extreme or out there- & I've seen the lows & the highs with my friends...& like I posted before, my best friend growing up just had her twins 2 days ago. So I've definitely got a positive view of IVF in general as an option. But I guess that doesn't stop u having weird feelings when it comes to doing it urself. I do remember a friend saying to me once that she was going to do IVF & was settled with her decision, but that she did have a weird feeling like she was messing with Mother Nature. So I think probably these thoughts are just a natural part of the process & fears that come with it. So If all goes ok over the next couple of weeks then we will be doing IVF in November


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## Briss

Ladies, thank you very much for your responses. I sometimes wonder how I would ever get through this without your constant support. 

Blythe, could you please post again that link to the inspiring video with a psychic I cannot find it.

Juniper, thanks very much for the article. I am definitely a ruminator and my Dh is even worse he still dwells on things that happened 10 years ago for some reason he finds it difficult to move on. whenever I mention counselling he says he wants prozac! that's one thing that's probably worse than beer. 

jen, I still have weird feelings about IVF and would prefer to have a natural conception but I just know that for us there is no other way so if I want children with DH it has to be IVF. took me 2 years to come to terms with this. 

Basically my AMH dropped from 1.38 ng/mL in Feb to 0.92 ng/mL in Oct. On UK scale it would be approximately from 9.9 pmol/L to 6.6 pmol/L (using my favourite formula: 0.92 ng/mL x 1000 mL/1 L x 1 mol/140 kg = 6.57 pmol/L). When I figured out it was 9 on UK scale rather than 1.38 I was very happy but now it's down to 6 which is rather low but I am more concerned with the fact that my reserve is diminishing so fast despite all my efforts and healthy lifestyle. truly depressing&#8230; 

Things are very bad at home, we had a very depressing discussion last night and ended up arguing, it just feels hopeless. He says he wants to do his stuff and wont do the next IVF before Feb next year. I wont survive that long with no hope of pregnancy. We cannot agree on anything and he continues with his beer. He blames me for all his misfortunes the fact that his career is not going well mainly cos he is unable to do anything as he feels depressed constantly as I am threatening to leave. He cannot relax in our relationship so he could concentrate his energy on something positive like making enough money so we could buy a house. He is right that I am making scenes constantly and have nervous breakdowns every other day but most of it when I see him drinking (because I know it's damaging his sperm which is already not great to begin with) and he says he drinks cos that's the only way he can take his mind off the nightmare we are living in. 

Staying at my mum's was good I was very happy to see my family but it was also very sad cos everything reminds me of my dad and I was in tears most of the time not because of the chemical and failed IVF but because my dad was not there. I am mourning him more than before now because I know I wont get pregnant until we start our next IVF and TTC was the only thing stopping me from sinking into depression. but then again TTC on its own is providing enough food for depression&#8230; is there a way out? does not seem to be because one thing which is worse than TTC is not TTC.


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## Kat S

Briss, your situation is heartbreaking :( I'm so sorry for everything you are going through and wish I had a magic wand to make it all better. It's so hard to watch someone we love destroy themselves and blame everyone and everything around them instead.

Tiger Mom, I'm wondering...I used to always get mild cramps exactly 5 dpiui. It's never failed. Well, yesterday was 5 dpiui and the cramps didn't appear. So now of course I'm hoping it means something good, but then I remembered I'm taking the Chinese Herbs (It says the Chinese name is "Wen Jing Pian". Here is the exact product: https://www.activeherb.com/wenjing/). Is it possible the Chinese herbs have curtailed my cramping and that's the only reason they didn't appear? I'm trying to be rational here and not jump to symptom-spotting conclusions that end in heartbreak 5 days later...


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## Jazzbird

Hi Kat

Depending on the cause of your cramping - it's very possible that acupuncture or herbs has helped to resolve it - which is a good thing 

Personally I try very hard not to pay attention to symptoms in 2ww - so many times I've thought something feels different only to get AF. 

Praying this is your magic month! 

Xxx


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## Briss

interestingly, my first AF after chemical did not have any clots. I was kind of expecting very heavy AF with some large clots cos chemical is effectively a mc but AF was completely as usual. herbs definitely made my AF almost clots free and it seems to be having a long lasting effect cos I stopped all herbs at least 2 months ago.


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## Jazzbird

Ps I think kidney yang deficiency which may result in a cold uterus can lead to cramping - as you are taking warm menses formula - it makes sense that this could alleviate abdominal cramps. 

Of course I'm guessing diagnosis which isn't a good thing to do but it's wonderful that the treatment is improving your cycle. 

It sounds as though those herbs are warning up your uterus to make it nice and cozy for your embryo. 

It's good to see these incremental improvements so you know you are on the right track. Stick with it Kat!

Xxx


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## Blythe

Briss said:


> Ladies, thank you very much for your responses. I sometimes wonder how I would ever get through this without your constant support.
> 
> Blythe, could you please post again that link to the inspiring video with a psychic I cannot find it.
> 
> Juniper, thanks very much for the article. I am definitely a ruminator and my Dh is even worse he still dwells on things that happened 10 years ago for some reason he finds it difficult to move on. whenever I mention counselling he says he wants prozac! that's one thing that's probably worse than beer.
> 
> jen, I still have weird feelings about IVF and would prefer to have a natural conception but I just know that for us there is no other way so if I want children with DH it has to be IVF. took me 2 years to come to terms with this.
> 
> Basically my AMH dropped from 1.38 ng/mL in Feb to 0.92 ng/mL in Oct. On UK scale it would be approximately from 9.9 pmol/L to 6.6 pmol/L (using my favourite formula: 0.92 ng/mL x 1000 mL/1 L x 1 mol/140 kg = 6.57 pmol/L). When I figured out it was 9 on UK scale rather than 1.38 I was very happy but now it's down to 6 which is rather low but I am more concerned with the fact that my reserve is diminishing so fast despite all my efforts and healthy lifestyle. truly depressing
> 
> Things are very bad at home, we had a very depressing discussion last night and ended up arguing, it just feels hopeless. He says he wants to do his stuff and wont do the next IVF before Feb next year. I wont survive that long with no hope of pregnancy. We cannot agree on anything and he continues with his beer. He blames me for all his misfortunes the fact that his career is not going well mainly cos he is unable to do anything as he feels depressed constantly as I am threatening to leave. He cannot relax in our relationship so he could concentrate his energy on something positive like making enough money so we could buy a house. He is right that I am making scenes constantly and have nervous breakdowns every other day but most of it when I see him drinking (because I know it's damaging his sperm which is already not great to begin with) and he says he drinks cos that's the only way he can take his mind off the nightmare we are living in.
> 
> Staying at my mum's was good I was very happy to see my family but it was also very sad cos everything reminds me of my dad and I was in tears most of the time not because of the chemical and failed IVF but because my dad was not there. I am mourning him more than before now because I know I wont get pregnant until we start our next IVF and TTC was the only thing stopping me from sinking into depression. but then again TTC on its own is providing enough food for depression is there a way out? does not seem to be because one thing which is worse than TTC is not TTC.



here is the link Briss
https://heidibrockmyre.com/blog/

i very much liked the conversation between them [not all of it but most] and it has helped me through a difficult week. its about 1/2 hour but i really would be very interested to hear what you think. they talk about babies choosing their parents...so i am trying to make sure i am sending out the right vibes as i want to show that i am ready to be pregnant and care for a baby. sometimes i feel so sad that i do get that if babies [souls] were floating around looking for mums i can see why they would bypass me. 

yes you are right the one thing worse that ttc is not ttc. i tried it and failed...we must have sex at least once [well its never more than 3 x around ovulation anyhow] to have some hope...without that then just sadness. i got my AF coming tonight but im not sad...i always see it as the beginning as i always know it is coming...those few days before are the pits for me but its day one and im trying to forget about the crap thats gone before and focus on those possibilities - You started it!! :)

Briss - your amh is the same as mine. Of course i know i have a few years on you and i totally understand your upset as its lower than it was earlier this year but i have seen AMH stats change for the better [even though they say this one less variable than FSH]. You have many many eggs....and going by your last cycle some great ones too. yes the sperm means that you have less chance BUT there are still millions there and a natural pregnancy can happen. Again i totally understand your wanting to pursue IVF energetically but please do not loose hope. You do deserve a miracle :flower:


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## Jazzbird

Ah Blythe your unborn baby is not floating around deciding not to be born. That is so sad. He/she is waiting for his/her right time and that doesn't mean the perfect family. It means whatever life lessons they want to learn. 

I think it's just a way of encouraging you to let go and let the universe do it's thing. 

X


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## Briss

Blythe, thanks. am watching the video, very interesting but I have to say I am very skeptical and do not quite understand some of it to do with connecting to the spirit. one thing she said is that we need to ask i.e. pray for what we want. that's generally fine and lots of people find comfort in praying. Sometimes however, things happen but not in a way you expect and even though you got what you asked for you cannot enjoy it. 

i agree that cutting cords with people is very important, I am very useless at that. I absorb other people's emotions and problems like my own and they stick. but i think I am doing great at cutting cords at work and trying to not take anything close to my heart. 

opening space in our life for a new soul to come in - makes sense but I am not sure what else I could do to achieve that. 

she says we are here to learn a lesson and maybe a LTTTCer's lesson is about patience and yearning. that cannot be right as a lot of LTTTCers had pregnancies in their youth but wanted to wait for various reasons. I think the lesson I see here is try and get pregnant while you are young if possible otherwise there is a risk that it might be more difficult as you age. We would most likely be in the same position if we started TTC in our 20s cos DH probably did not have good SA back then but we would have more time on our hands. She is trying to explain things that are outside of our control and it's very similar to some older religious beliefs but i think it's more complicated and we will probably never know why things happen or not happen. it's understandable that life is easier when you can explain things and find a reason for everything rather than accept the fact that no one knows why things happen and life can be unfair. 

"I also believe that each of us chooses our parents and the situation that we come into on this earth so that we can learn what we need to in this lifetime. So babies that choose to come through women in dire straights, addicted to drugs and living off the streets, likely have a lot of hard lessons to learn." - I cannot accept this because it does not explain everything, like most recently 1 or 2 year old died because his drunken mother forgot to feed the child. what lesson could this child learn? you must eat to survive? another example lots of couples cannot get pregnant naturally but succeed with IVF - does this mean that the baby soul did not want to be conceived naturally and was waiting for its patents to go IVF route? 

Blythe, trust me no baby soul in the right mind floating around looking for mums would ever bypass you! if that whole spiritual world she described is true than the only possible explanation why you are still not pregnant is probably because little baby souls are fighting each other who gets to be your baby and it's taking a while to determine who is more deserving. 

I am reading a book on what to eat when you are pregnant. it's really interesting as it clears lots of common misconceptions like eating for two. apparently the first 6 months you do not need to eat anything in addition to what you usually eat (unless you are seriously underweight). During the last 3 months you only need 200 additional calories a day! absolutely no excuse to get fat then.

re amh it's not the number itself that worries me but the speed with which it goes down. Thanks for being so optimistic I actually also started thinking that miracles do happen. 

when we argued last night DH apparently wanted to have sex but because he was drunk nothing happened I got tired and fell asleep. now he is accusing me of being totally selfish cos when I need him to BD around O I will do whatever and however long it takes to get it out of him but when it's not around O I would not even try. sad but true.


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## jen379

Briss said:


> Ladies, thank you very much for your responses. I sometimes wonder how I would ever get through this without your constant support.
> 
> Blythe, could you please post again that link to the inspiring video with a psychic I cannot find it.
> 
> Juniper, thanks very much for the article. I am definitely a ruminator and my Dh is even worse he still dwells on things that happened 10 years ago for some reason he finds it difficult to move on. whenever I mention counselling he says he wants prozac! that's one thing that's probably worse than beer.
> 
> jen, I still have weird feelings about IVF and would prefer to have a natural conception but I just know that for us there is no other way so if I want children with DH it has to be IVF. took me 2 years to come to terms with this.
> 
> Basically my AMH dropped from 1.38 ng/mL in Feb to 0.92 ng/mL in Oct. On UK scale it would be approximately from 9.9 pmol/L to 6.6 pmol/L (using my favourite formula: 0.92 ng/mL x 1000 mL/1 L x 1 mol/140 kg = 6.57 pmol/L). When I figured out it was 9 on UK scale rather than 1.38 I was very happy but now it's down to 6 which is rather low but I am more concerned with the fact that my reserve is diminishing so fast despite all my efforts and healthy lifestyle. truly depressing
> 
> Things are very bad at home, we had a very depressing discussion last night and ended up arguing, it just feels hopeless. He says he wants to do his stuff and wont do the next IVF before Feb next year. I wont survive that long with no hope of pregnancy. We cannot agree on anything and he continues with his beer. He blames me for all his misfortunes the fact that his career is not going well mainly cos he is unable to do anything as he feels depressed constantly as I am threatening to leave. He cannot relax in our relationship so he could concentrate his energy on something positive like making enough money so we could buy a house. He is right that I am making scenes constantly and have nervous breakdowns every other day but most of it when I see him drinking (because I know it's damaging his sperm which is already not great to begin with) and he says he drinks cos that's the only way he can take his mind off the nightmare we are living in.
> 
> Staying at my mum's was good I was very happy to see my family but it was also very sad cos everything reminds me of my dad and I was in tears most of the time not because of the chemical and failed IVF but because my dad was not there. I am mourning him more than before now because I know I wont get pregnant until we start our next IVF and TTC was the only thing stopping me from sinking into depression. but then again TTC on its own is providing enough food for depression is there a way out? does not seem to be because one thing which is worse than TTC is not TTC.

Briss, i am so very sorry for everything that is going on. and, it seems you have so many things going on. wow. i hope at some point you can take a breath. the stress of all that you are going through has to be overwhelming. i really don't know what to say. hugs and prayers are coming your way. :hugs:


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## Blythe

Briss said:


> Blythe, thanks. am watching the video, very interesting but I have to say I am very skeptical and do not quite understand some of it to do with connecting to the spirit. one thing she said is that we need to ask i.e. pray for what we want. that's generally fine and lots of people find comfort in praying. Sometimes however, things happen but not in a way you expect and even though you got what you asked for you cannot enjoy it.
> 
> i agree that cutting cords with people is very important, I am very useless at that. I absorb other people's emotions and problems like my own and they stick. but i think I am doing great at cutting cords at work and trying to not take anything close to my heart.
> 
> opening space in our life for a new soul to come in - makes sense but I am not sure what else I could do to achieve that.
> 
> she says we are here to learn a lesson and maybe a LTTTCer's lesson is about patience and yearning. that cannot be right as a lot of LTTTCers had pregnancies in their youth but wanted to wait for various reasons. I think the lesson I see here is try and get pregnant while you are young if possible otherwise there is a risk that it might be more difficult as you age. We would most likely be in the same position if we started TTC in our 20s cos DH probably did not have good SA back then but we would have more time on our hands. She is trying to explain things that are outside of our control and it's very similar to some older religious beliefs but i think it's more complicated and we will probably never know why things happen or not happen. it's understandable that life is easier when you can explain things and find a reason for everything rather than accept the fact that no one knows why things happen and life can be unfair.
> 
> "I also believe that each of us chooses our parents and the situation that we come into on this earth so that we can learn what we need to in this lifetime. So babies that choose to come through women in dire straights, addicted to drugs and living off the streets, likely have a lot of hard lessons to learn." - I cannot accept this because it does not explain everything, like most recently 1 or 2 year old died because his drunken mother forgot to feed the child. what lesson could this child learn? you must eat to survive? another example lots of couples cannot get pregnant naturally but succeed with IVF - does this mean that the baby soul did not want to be conceived naturally and was waiting for its patents to go IVF route?
> 
> Blythe, trust me no baby soul in the right mind floating around looking for mums would ever bypass you! if that whole spiritual world she described is true than the only possible explanation why you are still not pregnant is probably because little baby souls are fighting each other who gets to be your baby and it's taking a while to determine who is more deserving.
> 
> I am reading a book on what to eat when you are pregnant. it's really interesting as it clears lots of common misconceptions like eating for two. apparently the first 6 months you do not need to eat anything in addition to what you usually eat (unless you are seriously underweight). During the last 3 months you only need 200 additional calories a day! absolutely no excuse to get fat then.
> 
> re amh it's not the number itself that worries me but the speed with which it goes down. Thanks for being so optimistic I actually also started thinking that miracles do happen.
> 
> when we argued last night DH apparently wanted to have sex but because he was drunk nothing happened I got tired and fell asleep. now he is accusing me of being totally selfish cos when I need him to BD around O I will do whatever and however long it takes to get it out of him but when it's not around O I would not even try. sad but true.

yes you have made some excellent points. i have to say i am not a very spiritual person [for the most part at least] and I'm usually very cynical about these types of things. But you are right, some of those horror stories i read about in the press about child abuse...how can that be a lesson. Yes...i have gone off some of it now. See this is why i asked for your opinion :)

i know i said i was off supps until the new year but have decided to start taking some...in fact i have too really as my hair is just shedding all over the place so I'm going to start loads all the time!! i have decided with the TTC that I'm just not going to talk to DH about it....there has been the odd occasion where his words have been of comfort but generally he just upsets me with his lack of emotion/empathy for how i view things. So as far as he is concerned i am still on a break but with couple of BD around ovulation...hoping it will reduce stress at home.

i laid all my supps out this morning and attach a pic....some are new for my hair [lack of].
 



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## Juniperjules

Wow Blythe, that's some stash of supp's you've got there!! Wots caused the issues with ur hair?? Was it DHEA?

Girls, for those of u that are contemplating/doing IVF & reading/posting in other threads- I feel like I'm only really seeing BFP's in girls that are pretty young (but doing IVF)- like in their 20's or very early 30's.... Is that just me being pessimistic??? Or are u guys noticing the same thing? I mean I guess we already know that younger eggs mean better success.... But actually noticing it in the forum is a bit depressing. Have any of you come across older girls in here who are doing IVF & getting bfp's??


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## jen379

we'll i had my acup appt yesterday and discussed the tissue and dark blood during my period and he is def not concerned about it and still didn't recommend any herbs other than vitex. said it is the result of inflammation which is normal, hence the bleeding every month. i'm going to start my castor oil today and see if that helps anything. 

hoping we all are getting closer to our BFPs!!!!!


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## Blythe

It started with the dhea. Before then I always got comments from hairdressers how much hair I had but now it's very noticeable that my hair is much thinner. Apparently once you stop taking dhea it leaves system quite quickly but maybe it just acted as a catalyst or upset my hormonal balance linger term. 

I have spent a lot of time looking at IVF boards. Girls my age are moving onto de. I shouldnt because I swing one way then another and it's exhausting. It either will work or won't and it sounds to me that you are in great hands. There are successes though and keep in mind that these boards are dominated by people that need to talk, mostly girls whose TTC journey is not smooth. For lots it goes perfectly and so they have no need to hang out on these boards. Keep focused on the many many thousands of successes. 

I hope things are going better for you with DH. Are they:flower:


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## BBbliss

Blythe, thank you for that link. I must admit I'm a very spiritual person and every single thing she said agrees with my understanding and beliefs. 

When my youngest was about a 3 she told me she used to watch me from haven before she picked me and then she went on to tell tell me I was crazy but in the end turned out much better then she thought. Well, when she "picked me" I was severally depressed and going thru some of the worse times in my life. My ex. Had left me on my first pregnancy then after baby was born, then again on second pregnancy and for the final time when she was born as I never took him back after that. He had had sex with a minor cousin of mine, then an affair with my best friend plus a bunch of other women in between. He was gorgeous and had a sex addiction I think. No morals or character. So yes, I was crazy and after she was born I hit bottom. The only reason I'm here today is because I used every little bit of self I had left... To pray... Little by little I began to find strength. So when I have said to invest in your spirit and be kind to yourself I really lived it. I don't mean finding a church, but if you have one great. It could just be as simple as listening to meditation music, reading a good spiritual book and taking nature walks. Feed the soul and one day you will start seeing the magic and blessings in all things. Everything does happen for. Reason and we may never understand it all but it does, all of it, does have a purpose. 

Take this opportunity to look unresolved issues in your relationships like the lady said, maybe that's the lesson, or maybe it's something else but nothing will ever get done without the intention first. BE your best self when ttc so you can give that child the very best form of YOU you have to offer. 

This is probably not at all what you would like to hear here ... But it's what I believe


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## Blythe

Bbbliss which one are you in pic? All gorgeous :flower:


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## Jazzbird

BBbliss are you middle with 2 daughters either side? You're all stunning!


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## BBbliss

Yes, I'm in the middle with my girls


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## Juniperjules

Gorgeous pic Bbliss! 

Blythe, things are going quite good. We've had quite a few blow ups/arguments over the past month as I've chronicled here... The last one was on Tuesday. And was definitely the most informative & useful. 

I think at this point getting pregnant ASAP is what we both need. Babies don't fix problems but we are both I desperate need of something solid to hold onto so that all our stupid insecurities can pale in comparison. We need something positive to remind us why were still together! Ur point about only those girls who are stressing out etc being in these forums is probably spot on! There's probably lots of others who are getting ivf bfp's who simply aren't in forums at all.


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## Briss

Blythe, i am not a very spiritual person either, I want to believe in something but religion and other modern beliefs just do not seem plausible and they do not explain everything. Though I liked her idea that souls travel in packs, gives me hope that I will get to be around my dad again. 

also thinking of all the children dying from hunger in africa and yet their women constantly get pregnant. this women have terrible lives and malnutrition and yet they get pregnant over and over again and their children have short lives full of pain. also remember that guy in Austria who imprisoned his own daughter and raped her for 20 years and she had children from him. how can this happen? the more I live the more I am dissatisfied with the world. Things just do not make sense. 

your constant hair loss is a bit worrying. do you think it might be worth while doing hair analysis? I know that DHEA could be making it worse but there must be something else cos you stopped DHEA a while ago. I would see GP about it actually. Supps are great but we might be creating a disbalance (not scientifically proven but recently watched doc Martin (who reminds me of my DH...) and in one episode a guy suffered loss of bone tissue due to taking too much of vitamin D I think)

I love your picture with vitamins! see mine attached :) makes me feel so much better about my huge bag of supps. I agree no point talking to DHs about TTC generally, mine is not helpful or understanding at all. he just gets upset and reacts in a counterproductive way. he has been refusing supps for over a months now and continues with his beer no matter what. am going to try to talk to him again about beer. 

My supps this cycle (the main focus is on iron):

Floradix Liquid Iron Formula 500ml (10 ml twice a day)
Vit D 4,000
Vit E 800 (until O)
EPO 2,000 (until O)
Folate 800
Coq10 400

Juniper, it's true that younger women have better chances with IVF so it may take more than 1 IVF for us. I do see older girls getting BFPs though. 

BBbliss, how awful! your DH put you through a lot. well done on getting the strength to get over it. I cant belief you are 43!! :thumbup: all three girls look stunning and more like girlfriends rather than mother and daughters. I must know what you do to look this young?
 



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## Blythe

that picture is fabulous :) I have some more stashed away and thinking of giving DH the zinc currently in my half of pic and resurrecting the l-arginine just around the BD window. Im a big fan of floridax and much prefer it too normal multi hits. My mil recommends the sanatogen wine.....[strictly for the very ill or very drunk together with a buckfast chaser]...maybe having that of a morning would help me deal with work stress.

i am also thinking of extending the window although given that DH is exhausted after 2 BDs in any one month I'm not sure how this will go. i was thinking it's so weird how i always get my ewcm around cd9/10 so going to try and BD then and every other day until CD16 - this works out around 4 times....back in the day i used to enjoy the company of men who could manage that in an evening! Having said that I'm hardly bothered these days although have found myself recently looking at men on the tube working out which ones i would have sex with....i cant bear looking at the metro anymore as the stories are just too depressing.


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## Briss

I started forcing Dh to resume his vitamins since yesterday but it's going so hard, he makes scenes and pretends like he is about to vomit cos I am giving him poison - ??? you know what that psychic might be right with the husband like that I have very little space for a child, it's like I already have one! no sex either&#8230; 

blythe, definitely add some more zinc to your DH, I think it's the main one, you can skip on other supps but there should be plenty of zinc for proper sperm production. 

My temp is all wrong, it's just way too high for pre-O levels; even my post-O levels are sometimes lower. I am really surprised cos my progesterone was very low on CD3. what's causing the temp to stay this high? Last few days we have been arguing a lot and did not sleep well, I also had too much wine on Thursday followed by a glass of Champaign (big mistake!) so truth be told I was recovering for 3 days with very bad headache. Maybe that's the reason the temp is so high? although today I feel fine and the temp went up even higher. 

I usually take pregnacare conception before O and pregnacare original after O but this cycle I decided to just go with floridax. I've never tried Sanatogen Tonic Wine but there is actually Sanatogen Tonic Wine with added iron. I find as I age alcohol just does not get on well with my body. it might also be psychological effect of watching hubby destroying us with his beer. 

sometimes when DH rejects my advances and we end up arguing and he says something like I am being unreasonable (in stronger words) in demanding sex all the time (meaning 1-2 a month!) I find it harder and harder to stop myself from comparing him to my previous experiences with men. there was a time when all men seemed to be only after one thing&#8230; interestingly I do not look at real men on a tube I usually have an idea of a right man in my head and that's enough to get me going&#8230; (all pre-O though). I stopped reading the metro a few years ago cos it was stressing me out, I tend to see things in a negative light anyway but after reading the metro I just feel like we are all doomed


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## Juniperjules

Girls.. For once I have something positive to report!

Sorry if its TMI.. But this is the only place i can share! 

this morning OH & I had the most AMAZING non TTC sex!! Instigated by HIM.. Not a word from me!!!.. We were simply lying in bed contemplating getting up to put the kettle on for coffee.. And he started getting a bit touchy-feely.. And one thing led to another : ) 

It was absolutely the best feeling in the world. And it happened so easily & naturally. It's given me hope for our relationship, like we were back where we once were.


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## BBbliss

Juniper that's awesome! This is a great new beginning for you. The fresh start you were wanting :)


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## Briss

Juniperjules, sounds amazing!! looks like things might finally be turning for the better in your relationship.


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## Juniperjules

It was fab girls! I even said to him afterwards that it was the best we've had in YEARS!! Thought the compliment would be good for his ego ; ) 

And im serious when i say that. it wasnt forced, and the fact that he started it & seemed to be enjoying himself just made it so much better. It felt normal for the first time in years. It's definitely a good start anyway


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## BBbliss

So happy for you! I have a very good feeling about this ;)


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## Jazzbird

Juniper - fantastic. Nothing like a dose of old fashioned Rompey Pompey without baby making on the agenda!

On another note mumsnet postings have been in the news this week .. Keep expecting to open up the London metro and read one of our posts on this thread!


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## Blythe

Briss - i found that the clomid gave me much much higher pre O temps but i still ovulated at the same time. I wonder if its the remnants of last months drugs?

why does it have to be so bleeding difficult to get them to do their bit. My one is taking his meds but when i mentioned last night about bringing forward the initial testing for IVF at King's he went a bit mental and said "i thought we were leaving it until the new year"....well i had said quite firmly that we would have 3/4 months off so i backed down quite quickly. the new year is only a couple of months away. 

JJules - this is great news. i cannot imagine having sex for fun....sounds like a great way to start getting back on track. 


BBBliss - i have been thinking about our children picking us and what your little girl said to you. Like you i was at a real low point...broken down relationship and i had agreed to go and work abroad [in a war zone] for a few months just to stop everything i knew and come back and make a fresh start. There are just certain things i cannot reconcile in my mind though about the theory that our children pick us but i like the idea. My cynicism is at an all time high...after years of TTC i have tried so many things, inc. stuff in the spiritual realm and nothing seems to have brought me closer to a pregnancy. Still, I must do my very best to keep being proactive and as positive as i can :)


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## gingmg

Juniper- That's great!


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## gingmg

I do love this thread for all that it brings up. I finally got around to watching that video, Blythe thanks for posting it. I am a very scientific person by nature and what I cannot seem to ignore is the principle that energy cannot be created or destroyed, it just changes forms- which in turn makes me a spiritual person as well. It's the one thing I've always kinda stood by, not that I know what happens next, or what happened before. I read a book years and years ago called "the operators guide to planet earth" and it was the first time I had heard this notion of choosing your parents and that life lessons can only be learned in the physical form on earth. I barely remember much else from the book, but it was an interesting notion that has vaguely stuck with me, and now I just watched that video and here it is again. In the fertility yoga world the concept of clearing a space and making room for a new life comes up a lot. Its funny because for as hard as this year has been emotionally, I am actually glad that I did not get pregnant right away last year. Over the coarse of this year, my wife has decided to go back to school to get a different degree to change careers so that our financial life won't have to fall as much on me and we are now looking at houses to buy out of the city (the original plan was to stay in our city apartment with the baby). I don't think my wife would be back in school if we had an infant right now and I'm glad we had this whole year to be able to save more money towards a house. I'm also glad we will be closer to family when we do finally have a baby. It almost feels like it is falling into place how it is supposed to, but I didn't know it at the time. 
Briss I agree with your sentiment whole heartedly- why would a soul choose such heartache, desperation, sickness, poverty, ect,ect, ect? I don't know. But I do think there is a lot we don't know and there is so much I have witnessed that I cannot explain. I am a nurse and I take care of very very very sick children in an ICU. It's wonderful when we have happy endings, but it's too often not the case. I don't usually talk about what I do because it's depressing and it's hard for other people to wrap their head around it, but I love what I do and I wouldn't change it for anything in the world. I can tell you that there is hands down something different about a child with cancer than other children. At work, we all see it, and it's almost like they weren't meant to be on this earth for very long, they are wise beyond their years. I've learned more from them than I could even begin to write. They always know when they are going to die, well before the rest of us, and usually make little comments here and there to hint that it is coming. It's only after, and looking back, that the comments start to make sense to us. And actually, the children are always ok that it is their time, it is the rest of us that are not ok. I'm also willing to accept that maybe believing this is the only way I can cope with watching children die day after day, year after year. I don't know. I've given up looking for answers or reasons because it doesn't usually get me anywhere, and I end up back at the beginning that life is just fucking unfair.
BBliss- I got the chills when you talked about what your daughter said to you when she was little. Children can connect to the spirit world easier than we can, it's almost natural for them, and it starts to close off around 5/6 years old. I see it over and over and over and over at work, bizarre things that there are no explanations for and that make the hair on the back of my neck stand up. I actually cannot even believe that I am writing all of this here, because these are usually things we keep to ourselves, or once in awhile share with each other at work, but no one else.
I went to Haiti twice after the earthquake and worked in a make shift tented hospital. It felt like it was straight out of MASH. I had never been to a 3rd world country before, let alone during a national crisis, and I still am unable to accurately describe what I saw, how I felt, or the work we did. More than ever it was so apparent how unfair life was. I am used to a culture that expects for children to outlive parents, whereas in Haiti and many other 3rd world countries, parents do not expect all of their children to survive childhood. Here I was with a US airforce guard standing a foot away from me holding a machine gun, because our safety was in danger because everyone knew that we had food in our bags and people would pay money to get us back if we were kidnapped. And feet away from me people were starving to death or dying of completely preventable diseases. But you want to know what I learned? I wasn't necessarily any happier than they were for all the good fortune in comparison that I had- what they had was far richer because they had faith and hope that I don't have. Every night the tents were filled with songs of prayer, laughter, and joining together. I was blown away. I couldn't imagine my community joining together like that- it just would never happen. I cried for every building I passed knowing people were still trapped underneath and I felt so guilty when I came home that if I was hungry, all I had to do was open the cabinet or go to the store. Everything about those trips was life changing, and I couldn't believe the hope and happiness that I saw despite the challenges they faced.
Please be gentle with your responses, I can't believe I just wrote all that personal stuff. In the end, I don't really know what's true and what's not true, but I do know that there is a lot that I don't understand and that I can't explain.


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## Blythe

Gingmg - i dont have much time to type but i just wanted to say thank you for taking the time to share what you did. I was very moved by it. :flower:


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## BBbliss

Ging, how beautiful, thank you for sharing and I wish people were less afraid of sharing their lessons. I do think some children are special and not meant to be around for long....

This morning I received news that my uncle who was born with Down syndrome had just passed away minutes before. He was 43, a year younger then me, I'm 44 in 2wks. Well, we always new his time would be short and as hard as it was on our family to have had him in our lives with DS, he also thought us tolerance, acceptance, unconditional love and lived his entire life with an immaculate heart. I don't want to make this a sad post. We were very blessed with the love and lessons we learned by his existence amongst us. My mother had just left to Brazil yesterday and was arriving this morning. Coincidence? Absolutely not! It was the only day she could find a ticket for and she told our travel agent " if that's the only day, them that's the day I'm supposed to be there" and its true. She's there for her brothers and sisters, herself and mostly my grandmother. I just got off the phone with my sister and we said to each-other how happy we are to have been born sisters. We are ALL connected for a reason. My DD who "picked" me have a sometimes very challenging relationship with me. She was also born 2days before my birthday and looks just like me. We are always learning from each-other. Bringing a new life into the world is full of mysteries and complexities we are not ready to understand and theres also the right "time" but at the same time, like ging said, when you look back it makes sense...when you're ready, when you ask the right questions... We are all growing and learning, but life is more beautiful if we can see the gifts and the magic in it. Our connections are much more meaningful when we strip away all the nonsense and mundane details. There's sadness and suffering but there's more love and compassion. 

I feel blessed today. Sad, but still blessed


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## gingmg

BBliss- I'm sorry to hear about your uncle. I'm glad that you feel ok and can spend time with family. Your post was beautiful, what a nice outlook on everything you have.


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## Briss

Gingmg - thank you very much for sharing! definitely a lot to think about. I totally admire what you do. it takes a lot to look after children with cancer. I agree that having faith makes you happier and your life easier. it helps to get through dramatic things in life. but a lot of faith/religion is what other people tell you or what somebody'd written before. I doubt they know more than we do. no one really knows anything. I also witnessed things that I cannot explain and I really hope that there is something out there, we just do not know what it is.


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## Briss

BBliss, I'm so sorry to hear about your uncle. you sound like a wonderful and loving family and he must have had a very happy life among such lovely people.


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## Jazzbird

Gingmg - really enjoyed your post. So wish I was doing something more worthwhile with my job. I'd really be so interested to hear you explain more about the younger cancer patients and how they are wise beyond their years. 

I absolutely believe in old and new souls. I feel I'm an old soul. When I was young I used to experience déjà vu all the time. Now it's very rare. But I get feelings about people immediately when I meet them. Like a very quick glimpse into their soul. I've had 2 psychics tell me I am sensitive. And I struggle a lot in life with noise, sleep and overstimulation. I have found a group of "highly sensitive" persons to join. 

But I somehow feel I should be developing and using this sense more than I am. But I don't know where to start. 

I would have continued with acupuncture but I can't really afford to drop my current career just yet. 

Anyway please tell me more - I'm so intrigued. One of my friends daughters sees spirits. Her mum never believed her til she described a man who my friend found out from a neighbour that used to live and died in their house. Creepy!


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## gingmg

And yes, the starving people of Haiti and Africa do not have fertility issues. But then again, it's the only thing they do have and the only thing they can give- the ability to love someone else.


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## Juniperjules

Have you guys read any info about low vit D levels being a cause of infertility?? 

My Vit D was mildly deficient in November last year, have been taking a double dose of Vit D since then & when I had it checked 2 months ago was still mildly deficient, had gone up, and doc said was good for winter months... But I was annoyed bcos was still in the mildly deficient range.. Ironic bcos I live in Australia! 

This is just one of the articles on the Internet but there's heaps of stuff if u google it..

https://www.nationalpost.com/m/wp/b...womens-chances-of-ivf-pregnancy-toronto-study


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## Juniperjules

Gingmg, your comments were heart warming.. No one in here would judge you negatively.. Your observations were sad but beautiful. I'm also a nurse... For years I could never settle into any job or career even though I was being well paid or had great fringe benefits etc (was a flight attendant for a while). Once I did nursing I knew I'd hit the jackpot.. I've never loved a job more. It sounds corny but I feel satisfied & complete nursing. I wanted to do something with my life that had meaning.. It weighed on my mind heavily for years & nothing made me feel happy in other jobs. 

Bbliss, so sorry about ur uncle- it sounds like he was completely enveloped by loving family. 

This is such a lovely thread... I love that we talk about SO many different things.. AND that this is such a beautiful group of people


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## Briss

Juniperjules, I got concerned about my Vit D intake a few months ago and started on 4,000 a day (only when it's not sunny outside which it never is over here anyway). I wanted to do Vit D blood test but it's just so expensive and I think in the UK you can safely assume you have Vit D deficiency anyway. having Vit D deficiency in Australia is really strange! how much have you been taking? I would think your levels should improve after a months of Vit D supplementation? is it not being absorbed by your body for some reason? 

I got my PEAK today on CD11 which is normal for me. my temp is still very high so not sure I will be able to pinpoint my O. yesterday on Cd 10 I was still spotting which is not normal. made an appointment with my GP and will ask to be referred to a doc. I really want to rule out endometritis. 

managed to get my DH to BD today but it was really hard and had to make a scene, lots of shouting and screaming. I made him feel guilty for not having enough sex in our relationship while I have been faithful to him for 11 years!!! so he BD but probably just out of guilt not because he wanted to. I know this cycle is probably a waste anyway cos things do not look right but I just cannot bare TWW with no hope at all. I need to at least hope for a miracle to be able to carry on. 

My weight is coming back, I am so annoyed, so much effort over the summer to lose weight and now I cant stop myself eating sweet stuff. Was looking through my photos from summer vacation&#8230; not very pleased. I did lose weight but I still do not look like I did before, bits are just hanging so not toned up. all bikini photos had to be deleted it was just painful to look at. I really need to do some exercise. Where do I get motivation? My mind wants to exercise but my body would rather stay on the sofa.


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## BBbliss

Well said juni, btw I did read about the vit D, back a couple of months ago I had a million tests done and They never thought about my D. Too late now... I'm in Florida and one of my BFF is D deficient and she always out in the sun. 


Jazz, I'm very sensitive also, I used to see spirits when I was very little like 4 years old. I remember this and I was so scared I'd wet my bed all the time or beg my mom to go sleep in their bed. So I prayed so hard, as passionately and as purely as only a child can, and I ask God to take it away that I didn't want to see anything anymore and it went away. I'm more comfortable with the idea now. I've been studying spirituality for the past 30years. I still don't want to see them, hehe but I have received messages while meditating. As for you, you can start by shutting down all the unnecessary noise. TV, radio, news... Carefully chose what kind of music you listen too, in your case I think you prob have a beautiful taste in music. Also spend time in silence as much as you can. Try to spend time alone in nature, you'll be amazed of all the insights you'll begin to get. 

Being a spiritual person has nothing to do with religion or structure. I'm NOT religious at all! I even had a priest tell me that, lol. Just being in touch with your higher self is enough to start... And truly, it's all you need. 

I'm running out of time but I want to share another story with you girls next time. Have a beautiful day girls :)


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## BBbliss

Briss, my temps were really high pre O and it all just still worked out fine. I just discarded some temps because post clomid/moving/new bed etc... I'm 6dpo and it looks like they are bouncing right back up. Good luck! At least you got that BD in!


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## Briss

It might be that Vit D is not being absorbed by your skin if you are using sun protection lotions? 

BBbliss, interestingly what you say about seeing spirits. when I was a child I refused to stay overnight at my aunt's because my granny (her mother who passed away and who spent a lot of time with me when I was little) would visit me. She would sit on my bed for a while looking at me and smiling and then disappear. it was not a dream, I know I was awake. but some time later something similar happened, I saw my other aunt with whom I had very close relationship but who was (and still is) alive&#8230; my dad was a scientist and he studied colour vision among other things so much later I learnt how our mind can make us see things that are not there. Even then 30 years later I am still afraid to sleep at my aunt's place&#8230;


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## Jazzbird

Thanks for your advice BBbliss. I do find noise and busy environments very draining. But mainly being around too many people. Even being around extended family for a few hours. I crave alone time to such a degree my family think I'm selfish! I won't tell people about days off because I want to spend them recharging. But I don't know anyone else like me. 

I'm so interested in your spirit visions. Have you ever thought of exploring it further? I once knew a talented guitarist who hated seeing spirits - he went to a psychic college in London to learn how to turn it off. 

I've never had anything like that. I just pick up moods and sense people quickly. My OH says when I massage him that I seem to instinctively know where to go without any direction. 

I will try your suggestions. I'm not religious either but I just found a church near the office. I may go at lunch times for down time. I like spiritual centres of all denominations. 

Please share your story BBbliss when you get a chance. 

Love to all the kind, lovely ladies on this thread. It's such a pleasure to connect with you all! Perhaps we are the very reason we struggle to conceive. We are meant to learn something from each other.

X


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## Juniperjules

Bbliss, I was in Florida for the first time last November- Orlando. I loved it there! And loved the people, so friendly & courteous.

Briss, my Vit D deficiency is def due to staying out of the sun. The incidence of skin cancer, specifically melanoma which kills people, is really high here. My sister worked in beauty therapy b4 we did nursing, & she scared the hell out of me with the stuff she'd tell & show me!! Not just cancer but the damage & ageing of the skin freaked me out! So for at least 10 yes now I've been very 'sun smart' (that's wot they call it here!). I always have moisturiser with SPF 30 on my face, even in winter (bcos the UVA/UVB rays can be really high even without being able to see the sun). And that's wot dermatologists here recommend. BUT, it means that most of the population here are low in Vit D. Practically every patient on my ward is taking Vit D supplements- it's really common here. I do try now to get out in the sun for 15-20 before 10am or after 2pm, and I take the supp's. and it's slowly rising. I'm only just under the ideal range so not too bad now.


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## Juniperjules

I dont know wot id call it, but i definitely have a strange sixth sense sometimes... especially where my immediate family & OH are concerned. i often know wot my mum or sister are about to say, or pick up the phone at a random time to call them & the phone rings in my hand b4 i get the chance. My granpa was a very religious person, catholic. And completely lived his faith. He wasn't preachy, his faith was obvious, but private. He did wonderful selfless things for people all his life. He is the person Ill always admire most my whole life. When he died I was very depressed for a year, & throughout that year I very distinctly felt his presence around me... Especially when I needed it most. My mum, sister & I started calling him our guardian angel bcos the strangest things were happening that we couldn't explain sometimes. But it was like he was there, helping us. When his 1st anniversary of his death came, I told myself that he would not want me to be so sad & so depressed.. It was affecting my life terribly. And I decided I had to let my grief go, for myself, but also for him, I wasn't honouring his memory by destroying my life in his name.. So I let it go. We went to the beach & let go of 3 balloons, one for me, mum & my sister. And I started putting my life back together. After that I never felt his presence around me the same way, & strange things weren't happening anymore.. I truly believe he stayed with me while I grieved & needed him, but left once he knew I was ok. 

Jazzbird...those last 2 lines u just posted sent a shiver down my spine. I truly believe everything happens for a reason.. So your words just gave me a spooky but nice feeling ; )


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## Briss

Jazzbird, a lot of people are exactly like you including me I think it just means being an introvert that's all. extroverts get energy from being among other people, introverts on the contrary use their energy when surrounded by people so need to be alone to recharge. there is a very good book explaining how it works how we need to ration socialising so we do not exhaust ourselves - https://www.amazon.co.uk/Introvert-...TF8&qid=1383057466&sr=8-3&keywords=introverts I started seriously limiting my social engagements particularly work related after I read it and it helps. 

I think the only reason we cant conceive is because my DH has low sperm count and it does not seem to be improving. I do not see any lesson for me to learn here except choosing a different partner or go for IVF sooner. if I had a child as I planned 3 years ago things would have worked out perfectly at work. I would already return from my second maternity leave now. My mum's health was much better 3 years ago and she would have been able to help me back then. Also having a child or two would help the entire family to cope with loosing my father. also if I was pregnant before my father passed away it would have made him very happy to know he will have a grandchild. nothing is working out and I struggle to see any underlying reason or some kind of great plan for my misfortunes. all I can do is carry on trying and as far as possible accept and come to terms with my current situation. I am really glad I found you ladies! Talking to you really helps get through every day of this tough and long journey.


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## Briss

Juniperjules, I have the same with my DH, we sometimes do not talk to each other all day and then call each other or send a text exactly at the same moment, it happens all the time so we stopped even making jokes about it, it's just part of our lives now. sometimes I think about him and he calls me immediately. when we split up we accidently met on a tube so random but found ourselves seating next to each other and DH was trying to read my notes. he did not even realise it was me seating next to him. I was annoyed that smb is trying to look into my notes cos they were work related and decided to look at that annoying person and here he was my DH! it did feel like fate so eventually we got back together. I wonder why would fait put us together and not give us children!


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## Briss

another friend and colleague announced her pregnancy today, she got married 2 years after me&#8230; very happy for her but I am feeling sad. ironically she invited me for coffee as she usually needs some caffeine around 4pm&#8230; yes, people drink coffee and have babies


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## gingmg

Juniper- My vit D is low too, took supps for awhile, stopped, now have started again. I think mine is low from living in New England and also working nights doesn't help I am sure. 

Jazzbird- I don't think I can really put into words why I would say that some of the children are "wise beyond their years" and I can't really give specific examples. I guess the term old soul, maybe REALLY old soul, would sort of sum it up. There is just something different about some of them. Their understanding of their situation, comments on things, outlook on life, acceptance of hospital life, coping skills, I don't know- it's just something sparkles in them. It's the little things too, like understanding sarcasm as a little child- when this doesn't usually develop for most children until 8/9+. Most toddlers look at me like the enemy, and I wouldn't expect anything different- I don't expect to "make friends" with most little children until reason starts to come into play ages 5+ and they can understand why I have to do certain things to help them get better. Some little children seem to understand that even though I may have to do awful, painful, and intrusive things to them- I am not bad and that I am doing it to help. Obviously, there have been many deaths on my unit, and in some rooms more than others. Some of the kids can accurately describe kids they have never met who have passed on, talk to what appears like nothing/nobody in the room, or know things that they shouldn't know. Like I said before, I am completely willing to accept that when I say that's its almost like they weren't meant to be here for long- it may be the only way I can cope with what I see. I don't know. Humor helps too, sometimes you just have to laugh because otherwise you'd ball your eyes out. I'm sorry girls, I don't mean to seem like the downer, this is why I don't talk about what I do, it's uncomfortable for some people, but thanks for listening :)
I agree with Juniper- I got the chills when you wrote that maybe we were meant to learn something from each other. PERFECT, well then we have figured it out and are ready to be pregnant.:happydance:


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## jen379

Juniperjules said:


> Have you guys read any info about low vit D levels being a cause of infertility??
> 
> My Vit D was mildly deficient in November last year, have been taking a double dose of Vit D since then & when I had it checked 2 months ago was still mildly deficient, had gone up, and doc said was good for winter months... But I was annoyed bcos was still in the mildly deficient range.. Ironic bcos I live in Australia!
> 
> This is just one of the articles on the Internet but there's heaps of stuff if u google it..
> 
> https://www.nationalpost.com/m/wp/b...womens-chances-of-ivf-pregnancy-toronto-study

Juniper, I think Vit D supports progesterone levels, which is why so important. I was also in deficient range and was advised by acup to increase slowly with regular dose, not an extremely high one. Not saying that that won't work or hasn't worked for others. Just speaking for my situation. Evidently, the recommended dose is quite a bit lower than what is really needed to keep us on track. I take anywhere b/t 4000 to 10,000 units, depending on how i feel. I think 4000 is what we're suppose to take to keep vit d in good range.


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## gingmg

Had my CD8 ultrasound yesterday and my lining was better than usual- I think the vit E and baby aspirin are helping. Does anyone still do acupuncture? Haven't gone in a few months, trying to save money. This is my last cycle before IVF, so might start going again when IVF gets closer. Juniper where are you in your IVF plans? 

Briss- I've been feeling not all that great about my body too. I've gained 10 pounds since last summer and I feel just awful about how I look. I've been doing yoga, but not as often as I should, and haven't been eating all that great- especially since quitting smoking (it will be 4 weeks on sat!!). I need to get myself in check. Let's motivate each other so that we can feel better. My plan is to increase fruits/veggies/lean meats/fish/nuts and limit carbs/grains/sugars/dairy/. 

Has anyone heard of the paleo diet? Seems to be all the rage right now. It's also referred to as the caveman diet. Basically, if you can't pick it, hunt it or gather it- you can't eat it. I don't think I could really follow it, but I am going to try to cut down on grains/dairy and cut out sugar. It's supposed to have positive impacts on fertility too because there isn't so many insulin swings in your body every few hours and the gluten I guess inflames everything. Some people at work are really strict about it, and say they feel great. 

I don't know, I have to do something because I just don't feel good. Last summer I looked and felt great, but all this TTC stress and now the quitting smoking, I've been eating like shit. I need to get back on track because I don't want to gain anymore than I already have. Today is the start of my new diet, maybe because I wrote it here I will feel obligated to follow through. Thinking about joining weight watchers again too, it really worked for me to loose weight for my wedding, but might try it on my own first.


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## Briss

gingmg, well done on 4 weeks off smoking! how are you holding on? I read about the paleo diet but I cant do without carbs and milk... I like my porridge and other grains and of course chocolate! I am reading a book on what to eat when pregnant and that's what I am going to do but it does not really help with weight. Let's try and motivate each other for some exercise (said I while seating on my sofa watching TV and eating chocolate... so hopeless).


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## jen379

gingmg said:


> Had my CD8 ultrasound yesterday and my lining was better than usual- I think the vit E and baby aspirin are helping. Does anyone still do acupuncture? Haven't gone in a few months, trying to save money. This is my last cycle before IVF, so might start going again when IVF gets closer. Juniper where are you in your IVF plans?
> 
> Briss- I've been feeling not all that great about my body too. I've gained 10 pounds since last summer and I feel just awful about how I look. I've been doing yoga, but not as often as I should, and haven't been eating all that great- especially since quitting smoking (it will be 4 weeks on sat!!). I need to get myself in check. Let's motivate each other so that we can feel better. My plan is to increase fruits/veggies/lean meats/fish/nuts and limit carbs/grains/sugars/dairy/.
> 
> Has anyone heard of the paleo diet? Seems to be all the rage right now. It's also referred to as the caveman diet. Basically, if you can't pick it, hunt it or gather it- you can't eat it. I don't think I could really follow it, but I am going to try to cut down on grains/dairy and cut out sugar. It's supposed to have positive impacts on fertility too because there isn't so many insulin swings in your body every few hours and the gluten I guess inflames everything. Some people at work are really strict about it, and say they feel great.
> 
> I don't know, I have to do something because I just don't feel good. Last summer I looked and felt great, but all this TTC stress and now the quitting smoking, I've been eating like shit. I need to get back on track because I don't want to gain anymore than I already have. Today is the start of my new diet, maybe because I wrote it here I will feel obligated to follow through. Thinking about joining weight watchers again too, it really worked for me to loose weight for my wedding, but might try it on my own first.

hi gingmg, i've recently started paleo about 2 wks ago and have lost 6 lbs, which is great for me. i haven't been exercising and am having too much dark chocolate but it is really helping me get in vegs and fruits and good proteins/oils. i found a really good website that has a variety of recipes and have tried many of them from the paleo bars and protein bars to the asian stir fry. it's elanaspantry.com. there's also a thread here on diet and nutrition. here's the link. hope it's helpful and good luck!

https://babyandbump.momtastic.com/t...diet-nutrition-methods-improve-fertility.html


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## Blythe

Ladies - i have started some exercising....only little steps because anything which requires more commitment would end up being a 2-week thing that gets dropped. i have drawn a picture of myself now [stick person with double chin and fat hanging from every limb] to how i will be come christmas time [stick person with little fat tummy [baby!] and stick limbs :)]....its on my fridge to motivate me. I may upgrade it to include actual picture of my face on a hot body i pull out of a magazine. i have started doing 50 sit ups a day [not all the way up just little ones] and doing some arm weights and just jumping around a bit for 5-10 mins. in just a week my core feels a little stronger. 

WHEN you get pregnant your back and every other bit of your body will take a battering so its wise to take the time now to prepare yourself as best you can. 

BBBliss - very sorry for the loss of your uncle:flower:

Gingmg - i have been thinking about your comments re the children you work with and it made me think of my baby brother. When i was 15 my mum had a baby boy and because of a series of very bad decisions during the birth he was starved of oxygen and born with brain damage. We all went to see him everyday and cared for him in the special care unit and he fought on until he was 9 weeks. He honestly looked like a wise old man and when you said that children have that look of acceptance it really struck a chord. When i see pictures of Stevie now he just looks like he knows more than me. I don't know what lessons he took but his loss devastated my mum. For her it was too much to bare as she always said if she had gone in the day after she may have been treated by someone else and he would have been born perfectly. To this day she still places an advert each year in the local paper to commemorate his death.

about 1 year after he died i was messing with kids at school doing a wigi board and his name come up with some other info i have forgotton now. it completely freaked me out. i used to be very sensitive as a child to things we cannot explain and so i avoid anything to do with that stuff as it simply terrifies me. i cannot sleep in the dark and struggle to sleep alone....although this is now due to an overactive imagination!!

Well done on the smoking...that really is fantastic. Having smoked myself for many years i know what a struggle it is to stop. I joined WW a few years back and it really did work...i did the weigh ins each week but never stayed for the talk and did the rest on-line. There is an on-line option now but with the array of free apps nowadays theres just no need to pay. i hate putting on the pounds as it just feels as if i have lost control. Getting fit again and losing weight is perhaps the one thing i do have control of nowadays. We need to apply the dedication we have put into TTC into getting back on track with our weight/fitness and it would melt off i bet:thumbup:


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## Blythe

i forgot to mention that i felt i may have been hypnotised for the first time ever last night....or at least come as close as i ever have to going under. 

i brought the Paul McKenna 'confidence' book and cd in anticipation of an upcoming presentation. I always thought he was a bit of a plum but the reviews seemed quite good and i got it for less than £3 inc P&P off ebay. well i listened to the cd last night ahead of going to sleep and must have drifted off as then his voice got louder saying 'wake up' or something like that. i feel quite good this morning...i have ordered his 'Think yourself slim' too :) It was different to usual stuff i have heard...it was two recordings in one as his voice was saying different things in each ear...I have no clue what he was saying but im hoping that some of it went in!

having spent 60 quid per go for professional hypnotists and coming nowhere near being hypnotised I'm amazed at this.


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## Briss

Blythe, well done on getting some exercise! I should really be doing that as well. 

I am so very sorry to hear about your mum's loss, losing a child is just the worst thing you can never get over it. I am generally frustrated with medical profession and fatal mistakes they make on a regular basis ruining people's health and lives, I always wonder how can they carry on living knowing they have shortened somebody else's life. 

I've gained about 3 pounds since summer and yet went for a cinnamon bun with cappuccino this morning. It was so hard to lose weight but I just do not have it in me to be deprived of things I want to eat. I really want to focus on exercise but just cant get myself up and running. I could have easily gone for J Fonda DVD last night but instead spent the entire evening on my sofa. lack of motivation is the key. How do I go about being more active?

I do not think I was ever hypnotised, sounds scary cos you lose control. 

I like the sound of your book 'Think yourself slim', I wonder if there is 'Think yourself pregnant' book, I'd definitely buy it. 

reminds me of my upcoming presentation, I stared feeling really nervous. how I hate these things! 

I have plenty of EWCM today although I did not have any grapefruit juice this cycle. DH refused to BD this morning, I really hope I can get him to BD in the evening though he comes home really late.


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## Blythe

losing weight is really tuff. its so much harder over 35...i used to go out alot and drink so i found it easy to skip meals. A couple of weeks of that would shift 1/2 stone but i just cannot seem to get under 11 stone...Im nearly 5ft8" so i don't look fat but I'm a 12/14 and i want to be a 10/12. TTC did turn me off exercise but really unless you are exercising vigorously i really don't think it matters. In fact anything that gets the blood moving is surely a good thing...I know that thinking about it from TCM point of view i should not really exercise in 2WW but i guess its all about balance and finding something that is right for you.

i think we must do our best to create the right conditions but my view is more and more that if an egg wants to implant it will and if it doesn't it wont and theres not too much we can do to effect that [probably wont stop me buying the odd pineapple here and there!]. Certainly when i did have a pregnancy that stuck i was doing all sorts of things in the 2WW i shouldn't have been.

i am off work this week so its much easier to fit in some exercise...i have just done a zumba class [in front of tv] and the instructors body was motivation enough. I caught sight of myself in the mirror in the middle of the routine and it really was quite upsetting.


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## Jazzbird

Blythe - so pleased you tried Paul McKenna. Honestly it all looks like a gimmick but it works! I use hypnotherapy CDs all the time and just like you I seem to drift off and then hear him say wake up. But I'm not asleep. It helps me feel so much more relaxed. His change your life in 7 days is very good as well. 

I think visiting a hypnotherapist is just an unnatural thing to do. Close your eyes in front of a stranger in a strange place. It requires trust which takes time and money to build. 

I even have a conception one too


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## Briss

One thing I totally avoid doing at all cost is seeing myself in the mirror in the middle of exercise. it just ruins my mood and puts me off exercise for a long time. I've seen zumba dvd &#8211; seems like fun and lots of great moves. 

I know what I'm gonna do! Chinese Jump Rope!! I used to love it as a child, I remember jumping rope all day long with my friends and I even practiced at home with two chairs -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJuELrFOyXU 

My mum recently noted that she was always surprised at how much energy I had for jumping up and down all the time. the secret was that I really wanted to be good at it to impress my friends. there is noone to impress now of course but because I eventually got really good at it I loved it so maybe this feeling will come back. I just need to buy some rope, very small investment. It's more interesting than an ordinary jump rope cos you do various things with your legs and do not get tired as much. I also read somewhere that jumping is generally good for TTC. I wont be jumping during TWW when we do IVF though.

I am ovulating today and my horn is just unstoppable, this is ridiculous cos I cant concentrate on anything. started thinking of a colleague from an oversees office&#8230; well at least I am thinking of real men not some cartoon characters from an advert like a few months ago :) still, my sex drive is a complete mystery to me, I always wonder how my mind choses different objects to focus on every cycle, so random.


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## Blythe

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/...-Study-finds-boost-performance-fruit-veg.html

Carrots help with sperm (apparently)


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## Briss

Blythe, thanks. if I understand it correctly it's all due to Carotenoids which the body can turn into vitamin A. so ultimately it's vitamin A that they need? I think there is quite a lot of it in wellmen conception. I love carrot juice, i drink it almost every day, I wish my DH was as enthusiastic about it as I am. 

it's just ridiculous, DH knows I am after BD tonight so he is using it to his advantage as much as he can before he gives in :( in normal marriages it's the other way around, women using it to get things from men...


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## BBbliss

Hi girls! I've missed you all :)

Juniper, thank you for sharing that story about your grandpa, what I really think is that He was telling you he was ok and it was time... But I understand that kind of loss, I lost my father when I was 20 and I'll miss him forever, that never goes away. 

Blythe, so sad about your baby brother. I think little angels like that come forth to only teach and not to learn. Like you said he looked like he had acceptance for what was. Still... So sad for you mom. I hope she has been able to forgive herself for what happened. 

Briss, I know it is really hard sometimes to see what the lesson is, specially when you are in the mist of it, but one day you'll see it, that is if you chose to see it. I can tell right now that one of the most important things you can do for your self is to try and not be so hard own yourself. Maybe acceptance and surrender is our first lesson in TTC, we forget to love our bodies when it does not do what we want it to, or what we know it should, like make a baby. I caught myself having a negative thought about being a woman and stopped immediately and started to feel gratitude for being born a woman and with the gift of bringing new life into the world. Oh, btw and that video just brought back soooo many childhood memories, I used to be really good at it too and had so much fun playing till the streets lights come on. 

Jazz, idk about you, but I def do not qualify as an introvert, lol. I'm great at parties and I have no problem having small talks with total strangers. My job kind of made me an expert at it. But I am really sensitive to my friends energy and I do crave silence. If I'm home it's always total silent and I most of the time don't want to break my silence to answer the phone. I feel peace that way. Also on long drives I don't turn the radio on. Also take long walks on the beach with no music. Silence is a form of prayer. You can really feel present when there are no distractions. 

Ging, I'm so happy you've been able to stay away from smoking! That's huge! Also thanks again for sharing such touching insights about your special little angels.


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## gingmg

Jen- thanks for the link. I will have to check it out. I don't think I can really do the paleo diet, but am definitely going to cut down on certain things. Today is day two and so far I think I'm on the right track.

Blythe- So sorry to hear the story about your baby brother. What an aweful thing to have happen and just so sad.

I've been talking to and calling my future baby. I'm willing to give it a try and be open. What do I really have to loose really? Overall, I feel like something shifted in me over the last few months. I don't feel as desperate that it needs to happen this second. I know it will, I just don't know when, or how. Of coarse I want it to happen this cycle, but I'm prepared to do Ivf if I need to, and I'm trying to find some positives to replace the sadness I will feel if this last IUI doesn't take, like I can still ski this winter. I'm positive it will happen, so in the meantime, I'm going to work on feeling better. Just two days of healthier eating and I feel more hopeful that I can get my old body back.


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## Jazzbird

Hi BBbliss - yes I'm the same as you. Very sociable and great at meeting people but crave silent time. I try to get it wherever I can. Doing a 4 hour commute into London on the train is hell for me. People make so much noise - if not chatting then rustling papers, coughing, sniffing - even breathing! It's like I hear everything ten fold. I know it's my problem. I put music on but find that can also overstimulate me and I get ear worm - music on repeat in my head. 

I find I'm totally exhausted at the end of the day and then I can't get to sleep because I'm on hyper stimulation. 

Have you heard about the highly sensitive person theory? This I feel is me.


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## Blythe

Briss said:


> Blythe, thanks. if I understand it correctly it's all due to Carotenoids which the body can turn into vitamin A. so ultimately it's vitamin A that they need? I think there is quite a lot of it in wellmen conception. I love carrot juice, i drink it almost every day, I wish my DH was as enthusiastic about it as I am.
> 
> it's just ridiculous, DH knows I am after BD tonight so he is using it to his advantage as much as he can before he gives in :( in normal marriages it's the other way around, women using it to get things from men...

Did you get him to BD?

PS - i watched that skiprope thing...i have never seen it before. it looks complicated but great fun and i would imagine it would not take too long to get fit if you were doing that a few times a week.


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## Briss

BBbliss, thanks. I totally appreciate your views. it's just I see it differently. I am trying to accept that life is random and unfair and things happen for no reason. women tend to draw lessons from anything that happens but quite often there is no lesson. I actually love my body, well maybe not my body (I could lose a few pounds!) but I strongly believe that my reproductive organs are fantastic (even with high FSH). what I do not like is my DH's drinking and his low sperm count. I agree that some ladies learn acceptance and surrender before they get their BFPs, I just cannot do that. You already have wonderful children so it might be a little hard to understand that for some it is impossible to accept infertility as the end. It's just not an option for me. I will have children it's just I might have to sacrifice my DH and my marriage in order to have them with donor sperm. Again, what kind of lesson is this: you have a loving husband who cant have children so you have to leave him get donor sperm and bring up children alone rather than in a loving family? why would any child chose this? I've seen it happens a few time on B&B, women who struggle with male infertility for years than chose to go for donor sperm and get pregnant at first go even after 40 but the catch is of course that they become single mothers. btw, I've already ordered the rope and my legs are itching to start jumping it. I actually think introverts are being misunderstood. introverts do like parties and have no issues talking to strangers and people in general. it's just that they need alone time, piece and quiet more than extroverts because it helps restore energy. for example in an office environment extroverts can work in an open plan office which I would find impossible it would totally drain my energy hence the reason why I am staying at a law firm rather than moving to a bank cos there are more introverts in the legal profession and we tend to have our own offices. 

yet another cinnamon bun this morning&#8230; come on, amazon get me that rope already! 

Blythe, I remember we had different moves on that rope, trying to recall what it was it's not difficult just taking bit of time getting used to. maybe because I was jumping this rope most of my childhood (at least couple of hours every day!) I had lots of muscles on my thighs and people used to think I did ballet or gymnastics as a child (which I did not). I did manage to get hubby to BD but only when I was on top so not sure how much use this is for our purposes.


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## Jazzbird

Hi Briss - I agree the definition of introvert is poorly understood/defined - I prefer not to use the term as it has too many connotations. 

I know what you are saying about trying to see lessons with ttc. I don't really buy that theory because you can view any situation that way. But I do think that seeing every situation in this way makes you more positive and as a by product more relaxed. 

The Buddhist way is to accept every situation. It doesn't mean you give up or that the pain stops but you just accept the pain and learn to sit in it. Slowly it releases. But it comes back as emotions and feelings are temporary. This is why Buddhism teaches acceptance because battling will only produce more stress in a situation you can't change. 

If your OH was completely on board with ivf and doing everything he could - I think it would be hard to walk away from him. But he seems to be making it as difficult as possible. Is donor sperm something you could get him to consider?

Hello to everyone else. I read all your posts avidly even if I don't always reply. 

Xxx


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## Briss

Jazzbird, it's actually true, my mum is psychologist by education and I remember when I finally figured out that I am an introvert I was so happy because it explained so much and I leant how to preserve my energy and I shared it with her she was horrified and said it is not true and I am completely normal person. I could not understand it cos to me introvert is normal just a different approach to using energy but to her it was like something really bad almost like a mental condition. probably something she studied as part of her degree but this is just so wrong. most people who ever got Nobel prize are introverts so it cant be a bad thing. 

I hear what you say about Buddhism and acceptance vs. battling, but where do you draw the line? when do you need to stop battling and start accepting? TTC is battling, is it not? if everyone just accepted infertility we would not have come up with IVF and so many people would not have had children. You accept something you cannot change but as long as there is hope that you can do something about your situation and you can change it you will be battling, right? I am accepting the fact that it is a difficult journey, maybe the hardest I have to go through. it does look like with every failed cycle it is getting harder and the pain is stronger. I do not know what tomorrow holds for me so I can only accept what has already happened. I can accept the uncertainty of tomorrow. what else should we accept? maybe I am doing something wrong but I do not feel like acknowledging the difficulty and frustration of TTC and feeling the pain makes it any easier and brings me closer to anything? It does not give me piece, when I am in pain (emotional rather than physical) I cannot be at piece. I have that internal urge that tells me you need to do something try this or that, think of something else just carry on fighting and looking for an answer until you find it or until you realise that you have exhausted everything. 

My Dh will not accept donor sperm so it would mean a divorce. it's obviously not what I want but I must have children. 

Finally managed to get insurance clearance for gyno, my insurance does not cover fertility but I figured that spotting and cervical cyst is not really fertility related but standard gyno conditions but it took some time to persuade insurance company. unfortunately gyno only had available appointment at the same time as my review app with Create so had to move it to 12 Nov. I really want to get checked before we start the next cycle and I also really hope we do not need to skip another cycle before we can do our second IVF.


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## Briss

ladies where do you stand on "myo-inositol plus folic acid plus melatonin" formula for egg quality? https://www.fertilethoughts.com/for...oncoction-supplements-better-egg-quality.html 

I do not know why I did not look into that before. I researched DHEA and decided against it for the time being but it seems like the above formula is a safer alternative. Cant say anything yet as I only started researching it, thought you may want to know


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## Jazzbird

Yes i do understand the definition of an introvert but I still feel it's understanding is fraught with difficulty. It tends to elicit negative reactions from people. I prefer the term highly sensitive because to me because introvert does not account for my over sensitivity to noise or my problems sleeping. I understand your mums perspective - my first degree is psychology. 

I meant battling with your emotions. Trying to take the pain away, wrestling with your own mind about how you got where you are, or how unfair it feels. Just accepting it is unfair, it is painful, it is not your fault - are all powerful ways of coping. I even say to myself the very worst outcome:I may never have my own child ... And sit an feel all the horrible emotions that evokes. I try to welcome the visions of empty xmasses, or the sympathetic faces of those people who ask if you have any kids. The feelings are horrible but by welcoming them and accepting them I feel liberated - rather than fighting them or avoiding them. This is what I do. I also feel resolute that I will not let this destroy my life. I will have to eventually create a new vision of how my life will be. 

I understand viewing ttc as a battle but I don't see it as that. I try to see it as a long process, fraught with challenges and the unknown. I don't do well with the unknown. I really struggle with it. So I try to use it as an opportunity to practice acceptance of not knowing. 

I still desperately want a child - this is just how I try to deal with it. 

Meditation really helps. Focus the mind, acknowledge when it wanders, gently bring it back to focus and do not judge or berate yourself for wandering off. It's exercising the mind to keep a distance from thoughts. And not get swept up in all the emotions that the thoughts evoke. Over time you start to recognise cause and effect of thoughts and you can start to control them. 

It also brings peace in that everything - suffering, happiness etc is impermanent. 

Even if we didn't have children we would most definitely still experience periods no matter how fleeting of laughter and happiness. 

I don't mean to sound preachy or conceited or to trivialise feelings but just to share some ways I try to deal with it. Sometimes not successfully :-(

Just got a BFN. Feeling sad again :-( and jealous. And stupid for leaving it so late.


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## Blythe

Briss said:


> ladies where do you stand on "myo-inositol plus folic acid plus melatonin" formula for egg quality? https://www.fertilethoughts.com/for...oncoction-supplements-better-egg-quality.html
> 
> I do not know why I did not look into that before. I researched DHEA and decided against it for the time being but it seems like the above formula is a safer alternative. Cant say anything yet as I only started researching it, thought you may want to know

I'm up for that.....wonder where I can get some myoinositol. Juniperjules.....were you taking this?


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## Briss

Blythe, let's research it first there is so much conflicting info, it seems to be messing up people's ovulation at times if TTC naturally.

https://sites.google.com/site/miscarriageresearch/supplements-and-miscarriage/d-chiro-inositol


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## Briss

Jazzbird, you are much stronger than me, I do not think I can do that. I do need to try meditation though. I am very sorry about your BFN, it's always depressing. fingers crossed for your bfp very soon. 

had a training this afternoon and was seating next to my pregnant colleague&#8230; admiring her wonderful bump and wondering when is it going to be my turn&#8230;


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## Briss

finally some recognition of my dieting methods! I was not crazy to stick to chocolate as the best way to lose weight - https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/...t-diet-news-Eating-plenty-chocolate-SLIM.html


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## Blythe

i received an email from a friend today. i have mentioned her before....she is currently at home on maternity leave. I started TTC this time around before she even met her current husband. Anyhow, she said she is looking to stop BF around xmas and i know she is keen to start trying again. i read the email and already was thinking how i can ditch her so i dont have to hear the news......

maybe this is why im not pregnant because i am so mean spirited.

for the first time in years i brought some chocolate treats in preparation of trick or treaters knocking on my door. I usually hide in the dark. No-one knocked on my door so now i am left with 2 x buckets of sweets and chocolates.....posting that choc/diet link was well timed Briss :)


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## Briss

I thought these days all trick or treats trips are pre-arranged with the neighbours :) I am definitely not sharing my chocolate with any trick or treater!

Blythe, i remember you mentioning that friend of yours, ditching her is certainly an option, I am not a psychic but something tells me she is going to get pregnant with her second even before she actually starts trying, they always do, don't they. that colleague of mine was categorically against having children early in life and she just turned 30 and was aiming for partnership but I guess she was TTC for a few months at least because she did not get pregnant immediately after the wedding. she just did not share it with anyone, I am doing the same (but for much longer) so totally understand. 

I discovered coconut water, added it to my spinach and blubbery smoothy and it was quite nice I did not even have to add bananas which is good - less calories.


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## jen379

Briss said:


> ladies where do you stand on "myo-inositol plus folic acid plus melatonin" formula for egg quality? https://www.fertilethoughts.com/for...oncoction-supplements-better-egg-quality.html
> 
> I do not know why I did not look into that before. I researched DHEA and decided against it for the time being but it seems like the above formula is a safer alternative. Cant say anything yet as I only started researching it, thought you may want to know

Briss, I am taking Pregnitude which is the myo-inositol plus folic acid. no melatonin though. i don't have pcos but dr. thought might help with egg quality. i think it's new but is having lots of success with pcos patients. i've noticed some good changes but haven't gotten BFP yet. time will tell.


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## BBbliss

Jazzbird, very nicely written, I could not have done it better myself. You and I have probably read some of the same books :) I'm exactly the same. Btw, sorry for the BFN. We all know the feeling. 

I'm 7dpo today and have been getting some sharp stabbing pain in lower pelvic area not on an specific side but in that general area. They stab and a sec latter it's gone. Strange, I hope it's a good sign


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## gingmg

I take melatonin, not every day, but most days. Yes, it can interfere with ovulation from what I read. I doubt on all the shots, though, that it will be a problem for me. I looked into DHEA for awhile, both my RE and gyn said no. My levels were fine so I didn't add it. I did, however, add baby aspirin, even though they said no. But it just wouldn't be like me to actually follow all directions.

Jazzbird- sorry for the BFN.


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## Briss

jen and gingmg, thanks for your input on myo-inositol/melatonin. I do not think you can get Pregnitude in the UK? It's available on US amazon but I tried ordering it and they do not ship it to UK addresses. you can buy separately myoinositol (which is available in the UK https://www.amazon.co.uk/Solgar-Ino...8&qid=1383304310&sr=8-3&keywords=myo-inositol from what I read inositol seems to be the same as myoinositol?) and folic acid. Inositol is not a vitamin but it is associated with the B-complex vitamins. I think I will leave melatonin alone for the time being but will look into myoinositol. (I added this formula to my list of questions for the follow up appointment). although hubby was drinking beer again last night and I just feel hopeless whatever I do makes no difference as long as he continues with the beer. 

My cycle is just so out of order, my temp is really weird (I never had it this high), yesterday I had creamy CM which I always get after O and I was sure I ovulated yesterday but today it's back to EWCM and my sex drive is still high (it usually disappears right after O). It's possible I did not even O despite LH surge.


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## Briss

it officially sucks! everyone is talking about my pregnant colleague cos it's not very often that a lawyer gets pregnant (it's normal for secretaries and HR but for some reason it's really rare for us) and cos we are of the same level of seniority it seems like partners expect me to pick up her workload rather than taking somebody else! not only did I not get pregnant after years and years of TTC I am supposed to cover for smb who did! wonderful, NOT!!!


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## Jazzbird

Briss that is just poop with a capital P. 

Poop. Poop. Poop.


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## Briss

Thanks Jazzbird, it sucks! I just had coffee with her (yes, she was having a cappuccino while I am stuck with mint tea!) and tried my very best to look happy. apparently her husband really wanted children and made her an ultimatum on her 30 birthday so she got pregnant, just like that. She is a very good person and of course I am delighted for her but oh dear how it sucks to be me right now. am off for some wheatgrass juice, I am sure she is blissfully unaware of what it's for, good for her


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## Blythe

Briss - you are a BnB Addict whilst i am a merely 'Chat Happy' and i see Jazzbird is 'Active'....are they grading us based upon the number of our posts???

I have a new plan...i have brought out the big guns now....never mind IVF i have brought an elephant with his trunk pointing down [in the form of a doorstop no less!]. I was looking at feng shui for fertility and an elephant with downturned trunk placed near bedroom door increases fertility :) Hopefully will arrive before ovulation next week :)


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## Briss

I never actually paid attention but it's not flattering to be a BnB Addict... wow I've written 2,891 posts which is almost 3 times more then you have done and we joined almost the same time. tells you something, isn't it.

why is an elephant with his trunk pointing down good for fertility? shouldn't it be pointing up?


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## Blythe

My posts would have been doubled had I been allowed to access the site at work. I sometimes check it on my phone at lunch but our internet access is monitored and more importantly we are blocked from signing into anything. Big brother is alive and well in my workplace. 

Good point re the trunk :)


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## BBbliss

Oops should I get rid of my elephant with the trumk up? 

I've been taking this new prenatal and I absolutely love it. I give it to DF also, I lied and said its for him and her, when he saw the bottle and said really loud "prenatal?" His multi was really weak. Not at all what he needed at this point. Btw, he drooped a sample for his SA today. fX!

https://www.drvita.com/product/buried-treasure-prenatal-plus-dha-complete-16-fl-oz/12346


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## Briss

Blythe, good point I spend most of my working day on B&B or generally doing fertility research. I am sure they can trace what I am up to but I guess cos I do terrible hours no one raises it yet.

I am looking into IMSI as opposed to ICSI, apparently it works better for men with DNA fragmentation sperm.

just discovered new supps for men that are being recommended by IVF clinics in London. ProXeed® Plus https://www.proxeed.com/ingredients.asp


BBbliss, I checked your prenatal and if amazon list of ingredients is correct it seems that it has Vitamin A (4000 IU from retinyl palmitate plus 4000 IU from beta carotene). beta carotene form of vitamin A is completely fine but I am worried about retinyl palmitate, if I am correct it's animal based form of vitamin A that is not recommended to women of childbearing years. There has been so much talk about it being linked to birth defects I am surprised there are still prenatals on the market containing this form of vitamin A. your dose is not high but you are getting this form of vitamin A from food as well so it's possible that altogether your levels may become quite high so i'd be cautious about it. Your DH can safely take it it's actually good for him. there is a lot of info if you google it -
https://www.parentingweekly.com/pregnancy/pregnancy-complications/vitamin-a-and-birth-defects.htm
https://livewell.jillianmichaels.com/vitamin-palmitate-safe-pregnant-5270.html


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## Jazzbird

I'm going the opposite way to you gals. I have concluded that pregnancy is luck and there is nothing more I can do other than bd the right times. 

Tonight I got home to our stray cat - he just moved in with us! Picked him up like a baby and said "you can be my baby boy" and burst into tears. 

I'm nearly at the year mark - 2 more months to go. Tried to talk about next steps with OH but he just looks so sad (he would love to be a dad), goes quiet and then says he doesn't want me to have ivf as he worries about the effect it will have on my body. I just want him to talk about it. 

Some annoying girl at work told me to relax today. Grrrrrrrrr. Is that all I have to do?

What do you girls think about lack of cervical mucus? I'm starting to wonder whether the lack of it means it's either not enough or even hostile. I use preseed. 

Well if the elephant works let me know. I was even thinking about going to a psychic ... Desperate times. I just can't figure out what my purpose is without a family. 

Perhaps there is no purpose. That's what I always say to OH when he gets upset about his grandad who has dementia. Thinking there is a purpose or reason seems to me to send people off soul searching. I feel more free when I think it's all random. 

I'm in a strange mood tonight. Need to get some sleep. 

Xxx


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## Briss

Jazzbird, hang in there, I know it's tough but your stats are good it must be just a matter of time. I agree with your DH, IVF is a big step and so far it looks like you should be able to get there on your own. I'd definitely wait a bit more before considering IVF. 

cervical mucus could be an issue if you do not have any. preseed worked for many people but if the sperm is not that great it may make things worse actually. as a last resort there is always IUI which bypasses the need for EWCM but not as invasive as IVF. what are you doing to improve EWCM?

it must be both: some of it is random but some things do happen for a reason. who knows. when you are young it's hard not to get pregnant, when you are over 35 things just do not work that well and it takes longer for everything to come together so conception occurs. stats are on your side.


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## Jazzbird

Thanks Briss.

I literally get about 3 hours of ewcm. Other than my kidney yin herbs I'm not doing anything to improve it. It's just difficult to time bd in that 3 hour window. 

His SA was mostly good only a bit low on morphology (10% normal but still way above 4%). But he has been so ill since his op I can only imagine his sperm have been affected. He has no energy and his libido is non existent. 

What else should I be doing for ewcm? I have heard oil of evening primrose is good for it up to Ov. 

I agree with what you say - it's not completely random. Although I was pleasantly reassured when I visited another ttc forum and it was full of 20 something's who had struggled for a long time. It made me feel less worried about age being the reason we're all struggling.

Happy weekend ladies. I slept so well I feel like a new woman. If only my eyelid eczema would clear up!


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## Blythe

Jazzbird :flower:

Hello love. I'm glad you slept better. It does certainly seem random when we have all put so much into it and still no bfp. I had an angry rant last night (see my post on the fertility spell thread in over 35 and subsequent apology). All we can do is create the best conditions we can and know in our hearts that it will probably happen soon (statistically it will) and for those other it's will still happen but later and perhaps not in the way we originally envisioned.


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## Jazzbird

You gals are simply the best!


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## Briss

Jazzbird, it might be that your EWCM is just up there around cervix and does not come out so you do not notice it but it's still there. EPO works for some, I personally prefer grapefruit juice which just works really well for me. do you drink lots of water?

I had a very disturbing dream, I was heavily pregnant with a very tiny bump so no one could say whether the baby is fine.

when I was in my 20s I had a couple of friends who struggled to conceive for about 5 years. I was so far from even considering having a child that I failed to appreciate their struggle. I think when 20 something struggles to conceive it's all due to some serious issue so you do need medical help. over 35 is different, our bits just do not work that well any more so it's taking time.


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## Jazzbird

I hadn't thought that ewcm might just be high up. Thanks - I'll give epo a try. 

Blythe I completely agree with what you said over those spell casts. But having said that I just looked at that website and as the full moon is on my birthday next month - I feel tempted to give it a try. 

I can't believe I'm even typing that!

OH is away this weekend. Enjoying the solitude. 

X


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## Blythe

i know i had a look too and thought give it a go but then i remembered that many of these so called white witches are just websites created to make money and lots of it [i have no problem with pagan practices but do with con artists].

Please have a look at this thread:

https://babyandbump.momtastic.com/p...predictions-lets-see-whose-more-accurate.html

The last time i brought a spell i received a generic reading that had nothing to do with my circumstances..the spelling/grammar was very bad too. They refused to answer my subsequent emails and i found this particular one had been very rude to other women.

what they do is send you an email telling you about the spell and instruct you to think positively and really believe it will happen in the next 3 months...if it doesn't they will recast. Lots of women benefit through the positive thinking and it is this, if anything, that has an impact on fertility not these bleeding spells. These sites receive many thousands of payments throughout the week....there is simply no way that these spells could be personal. Positive thinking is free. I hate that they say the spells will not work if you don't really believe in it...once again we are made to feel bad about our inability to get pregnant.

I would be interested in seeing someone face to face but these sites are, at best, unethical.

My elephant turned up and i put him by the bedroom door....now that is desperation :)


EWCM - i started taking these from CD1 - O last month and i had LOTS of very noticable EWCM on CD10 but not much after. i am taking again this month and so will report back.

ingredients = 
Vit C 100mg
calcium 51.6mg
l-arginine
n-acetyl cysteine
coral calcium
grape seed extract
lactobacillus acidophilus

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Fairhave...auty_Vitamins_Supplements&hash=item2321109e9f


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## Briss

Blythe, can we have a picture of your elephant? really want to see that baby maker!

re EWCM, make sure you do not exceed your Vit C above 1,000 as it may dry up your CM. it's really interesting actually cos I am sure grapefruit juice has a lot of vitamin C in it and yet it works the other way around. maybe because it's natural?


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## Briss

Blythe said:


> Please have a look at this thread:
> 
> https://babyandbump.momtastic.com/p...predictions-lets-see-whose-more-accurate.html

Blythe, did you manage to figure out who is the most accurate psychic based on that thread?


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## Blythe

here is my elephant - i put a teaspoon against it too show scale. as you can see very small.i have been looking at other phalic fertility statues and may have been better off using a wooden erect penis as a door stop.as a subtle reminder as to how things should be.

Briss - i think there are people out there toying with the pagan arts with the right intentionsi have yet to see one that is doing it sincerely on-line. it is a licence to print money..you can read a book and start making thousands every month.

Jazzbird - I'm not likening TCM to paganism but i have seen people trading their arts when their qualifications have been purchased on-line inc. chinese medicine. I find it very worrying. Quite frankly if a testimonial appears on someones site it means nothing until i see it independently.

this is my favourite thread. It is my favourite for the amount of honesty, frank exchange of differing views, but most because your kind hearts and words have saved me from falling down many holes during the last few months. i often wonder if people will come back to this thread after years [as i have done with others] looking for hope and that they will see that all of us have had a genuine belief in the incredible powers of TCM as a medicine system. I do still very much have a huge amount of fascination and respect for this incredible way of viewing health. my problem lies with the practitioners. Honestly Jazzbird, we have not met but probably you have given my insights i have not had from my practitioners who i have paid good money for. [i just reread that sentence and cannot be bothered to correct but really my use of the english language is really quite poor at times!]
 



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## BBbliss

Jazzbird, you are not going anywhere! You just had a bad day and its OK, we've all been there and here we are again... You should have seen me a couple of months ago when I found out my tubes were blocked, I posted a very depressing thread "HSG bad news" but I feel good that I tried everything I could to take care of it ASAP. That's what we are all doing, like Blythe said, we are doing is trying to create the best conditions possible, and that way there can be no regrets. I'm proud of all of your girls... I think I have said it here before, TTC is a really beautiful thing and as tough as its been since I've started with a few challenges, I try not to look at it as a struggle but a process in which I'm actively participating. To call it a struggle already implies it to be a negative experience and it makes it that much harder. Things just are the way they are moment to moment. All can change with every new cycle, the way we choose to look at it is what causes the pain. It's perfectly fine to have a bad day, but holding on to that feeling day in and day out is only going to create stress. I'm trying to relax myself, there's only so much we can do, it WILL happen when it's supposed to and we'll be ready :)

I think for me L-arginine really helped my CM, EPO did nothing for mine. I think it's the main ingredient on fertileCM. 

Briss, I know about the vit A. I even stopped using my retinol creams 6months ago, as well as hydroquinone and Botox, oops there it goes, my secret, lol. This product has 4000IU and its well under the limit of 10000IU/day. (+4000IU from carotine)I'm ashamed to admit I do not eat greens and veggies. I know, I know... It's bad, I only prob eat a portion a here and there. The bad kind of vit A comes from animal organs and such, and that, I'm not touching! And shell fish is a rare treat, my DF doesn't eat it so I never have a chance. In other words, I think it ok for me. Thank you for pointing it out, it made me take a second more careful look at it.


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## Jazzbird

You gals are so right on!

Blythe - thanks for bringing me back down to sanity. You are so right - these spell casting websites go against anything I believe in. And there is like you say no regulation, no independence. It's just preying on desperate ladies like me. I shall go and buy a pair of earrings instead! And thank you for your kind words about my TCM explanations. Honestly - it is really making me consider going back to it. I loved studying it even though I sometimes really struggle with the lack of scientific explanation. I also found it hard when my patients didn't respond. And now I'm obviously on the receiving end of treatment not working and it does shake my belief in it. My OH doesn't really believe in it - even though he begs me to do this one point when he is so stressed out. I should video his reaction. It's astounding. First he's grumpy, asks me to needle him. Then when I start to unwrap the needle he gets scared of the pain (what a baby). Then when I hit the point he starts giggling hysterically before starting to look tearful. 20 minutes later he is zoned out. Like a totally different person. 

I just wish I could understand why it works sometimes and why it doesn't other times. Fertility is not a great example because it involves 2 people and too many processes to ensure the outcome. 

I'm also hideously out of practice now. It toke me an hour to locate all the spinous processes on OH back and I got really irritated with his tightly packed spine. 

I know what you're saying about unlicensed practitioners but if they are registered with the British acupuncture council then they have had rigorous training. 

Briss - I will defo look at my vit c intake too. 

Thanks BBbliss - I agree bad to hold on to emotions and bad to avoid them or replace them. Healthy to experience, acknowledge and let them go. That is one disgnostic tool in a branch of acupuncture. Test the emotional responses to all elements. If it's joy - fire; anger - wood; fear - water; metal - grief; earth - sympathy/overthinking. 

Hello to Gingmg, juniper, Jen x


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## Briss

Blythe, this is one cute elephant!! fingers crossed it will do the trick :) you just never know. I did not know the pagan arts such a profitable business. I totally agree I still believe in TCM, just do not have it in me to continue searching for a proper practitioner. 

BBbliss, I really like it how you see TTC as a process rather than a struggle! this is wonderful. we seriously need to try and change our attitude towards TTC and see it as a positive thing. I had no idea how my body functions a few years ago now every single day I can totally say what my hormones are doing where the egg is, which ovary is about to O etc. I am by no means an expert but I am so attuned to my body and it's a truly wonderful feeling. 

re Botox, cant wait to do it but I decided I will do nothing until I have had (and breast-fed) all my children (at least two) and then I will go wild with self improvement. 

Jazzbird, your DH's reaction to needling is so funny, great that it works for him. you know pregnant women are advised to wear wristbands like acupressure tools against vomiting. i think it just shows that acu being widely recognised. 

afm, am into pineapples this cycle to help implantation. i know it's not going to make a difference but it's healthy, why not. 

Blythe, i just cant stay away from my foot massager! I even forgot about reflexology cos I do it almost every other day. love it!


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## Jazzbird

Hi Gals

I'm falling apart emotionally this weekend. My friend's father has just been diagnosed with terminal cancer and my Mum turns 71 this week. I spoke to her today (she seems in good health) - but I lied about this weekend again. I said I was busy with OH but really I'm just craving a couple of days to wind down from a long stressful week. I am starting to really worry I am not spending enough time with her. I had always hoped that when I had kids, we would do lots of things together and I would see her every week. 

I don't know whats wrong with me. I guess its impending AF. I just feel so guilty about wanting so much down time. She went through a horrendous divorce with my Dad a few years ago - and now she lives alone. She said over the phone she's in all day today and all day tomorrow.

My sister thinks I'm selfish too for not making more of an effort with her and her kids and my Mum. When I try to explain that I need downtime or I start to feel unwell - they just think I'm being a hypochondriac. They're both the opposite to me.

I know if I lost my Mum (I'm almost in tears as I write) - I would regret so badly not spending more time with her. But if she does come down - she wants to clean my house and wash all my clothes and iron and and and ... its just too stressful when I just want to sit and relax and not talk.

I haven't even told them I have a gig tomorrow! I would rather just go alone, do my 3 hours of singing with the band and then head back quietly at a reasonable time. If I invite them, it'll turn into an all day event and I just want to get back home.

I'm sorry for all the posts this weekend. I feel very unstable and tearful. It is my Water element in TCM - its completely out of balance and I get very fearful when its like this.

XX


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## gingmg

Jazzbird- I only have a minute, but wanted to send you a big virtual hug. ((((((((((( big hugs)))))))))))


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## Blythe

I've had 3 pints....how cheap! But I saw your post and wanted to do the same and offer you a hug :hugs: 

We are women so we always feel guilty about something. I have learnt over the years that people are quite guide at looking after themselves apart from some of us who look after others before ourselves. Give yourself a massive hug and look after your own needs (not to the detriment of others). 

You are working very hard at the moment and doing loads if travelling so you absolutely need to have done time to yourself plus you have been looking after your DH. 

Those days before AF are a killer. You are lovely and I'm sure singing tomorrow will help you feel better. :flower:


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## Blythe

Good not guide. iPhones!!


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## Briss

Jazzbird, I am very sorry you are going through this. In the end of the day your mum wants what's best for you and if that's being on your own for some time than I'm sure she would understand. she does not live far from you, does not she? so you can see her some other time. Ultimately it's helping you to relax and conceive and I am sure she really wants you to get pregnant and she would not want you to feel guilty just because you need some time to recharge your batteries.


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## jen379

Jazzbird said:


> Hi Gals
> 
> I'm falling apart emotionally this weekend. My friend's father has just been diagnosed with terminal cancer and my Mum turns 71 this week. I spoke to her today (she seems in good health) - but I lied about this weekend again. I said I was busy with OH but really I'm just craving a couple of days to wind down from a long stressful week. I am starting to really worry I am not spending enough time with her. I had always hoped that when I had kids, we would do lots of things together and I would see her every week.
> 
> I don't know whats wrong with me. I guess its impending AF. I just feel so guilty about wanting so much down time. She went through a horrendous divorce with my Dad a few years ago - and now she lives alone. She said over the phone she's in all day today and all day tomorrow.
> 
> My sister thinks I'm selfish too for not making more of an effort with her and her kids and my Mum. When I try to explain that I need downtime or I start to feel unwell - they just think I'm being a hypochondriac. They're both the opposite to me.
> 
> I know if I lost my Mum (I'm almost in tears as I write) - I would regret so badly not spending more time with her. But if she does come down - she wants to clean my house and wash all my clothes and iron and and and ... its just too stressful when I just want to sit and relax and not talk.
> 
> I haven't even told them I have a gig tomorrow! I would rather just go alone, do my 3 hours of singing with the band and then head back quietly at a reasonable time. If I invite them, it'll turn into an all day event and I just want to get back home.
> 
> I'm sorry for all the posts this weekend. I feel very unstable and tearful. It is my Water element in TCM - its completely out of balance and I get very fearful when its like this.
> 
> XX

hi jazzb, just wanted to give you :hugs: i actually think you are very wise to know your emotional limits and take care of you right now. when you're ttc, it is an emotional roller coaster and you have to take your breaks when you can and manage life so that it keeps you in check. don't be too hard on yourself. i often feel those blahs too and when i take that wkend to just be still and quiet, i'm usually come back better for it. 

take care of you and i hope things get better! :hugs:


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## BBbliss

Jazz, it's ok to feel how you feel. Your mom just want to be that for you, a mom, the cleaning and doing so much is only her way to show her love. Maybe it's not what you need right now...I know you need time alone to recharge. If he doesn't live far maybe you just pop in to see her that way you have control of the time and how much. You need that too, a little unconditional love. Sometimes the universe just wants to show how you are loved and it comes in the form of a caring mother.


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## gingmg

Jazzbird- I'm the same as you, sometimes I just need to slow it down and have some alone time to recharge. It doesn't mean you are selfish or that you don't care. Be gentle with yourself right now, it's a lot to go through.


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## Jazzbird

Thanks ladies. You're all so lovely. It's an ongoing battle with myself to find time for my family. I gave up trying with my sister because she seems so ungrateful for the things I do. But my Mum - she's so lovely and so utterly special to me. But I find prolonged time with anyone except OH draining. Mum always wants to "achieve" things all day long.

Even when she got divorced and sold the family home she had no where to live. I offered but made noises to the fact that I wasn't so happy about her commuting from her job at midnight 4 times a week when I was getting up at 5 to drive 60 miles through rush hour London traffic. So she stayed with my sister for 5 months. 

I feel bad about that. Really bad. And my sister has expressed her annoyance even though she used my mum for a cheap babysitter and borrowed money off her just when I leant my mum quite a few thousand to help her but her house. 

I'm rambling and you're all out drinking. That's where I should be, faced down in a mojito! 

Anyway just wanted to say a big thank you for all your responses. You're all so lovely and I feel very privileged to have met you through our ttc journeys. I'm grateful to my empty womb to have had the chance to meet you all xxx


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## Juniperjules

Hey girls, 
Jazzbird, Just want to send you love & hugs... I'm not out drinking sadly.. I'm on my break at work.. It's Sunday morning here..but I wanted to send my love & support bcos ur always such a sweetheart for all of us xxx I also love time on my own.. I think maybe I've always been like this?? I'm not sure though.. I was an only child till I was 7.5 yrs, so until then I desperately craved company & other people. But as I've gotten older I really do crave time alone. Sometimes I feel like I'm about to explode if I don't get to be by myself for an hour or so.. Always going b/w work, being with OH, being with my parents (mostly mum)... And even though I adore all 3, sometimes I still just want to be alone for a bit. To the point that I don't really make any effort to even see friends anymore. I have a couple of really lovely work friends & only see them at work- so that's easy to maintain... But other friends, old friends.. I don't really bother with much anymore. It's pretty terrible really. Not normal. It's all related to my mental state & life in general over the past few years. Although most people who know me would have no idea at all. bcos im a chameleon.. im great at pretending. to my own detriment i think. Retreating backwards into myself & not really wanting to be forced to share how I feel with anyone other than my family has bcome my normal. 

So I haven't really been posting bcos I'm having a horrendous week.... Even the great sex last week wasnt enough to keep things on track. in the blink of an eye lately everything changes...the wind changes & so does my future. I feel stupid even writing in here anymore bcos one minute I think things are good then bang.. Gone to hell again. 

I've been at my parents place since Wednesday. And today OH told me he wants to have a break. He made a comment about how 'it probably won't b for long' but I'm not so sure myself. I think saying that just makes it easier for him to say it to me. There's been a lot going on with us. More than I can bring myself to write about in here. Too much pride I guess. So I'm cancelling my IVF nurse appt for tomoro. And I guess I'm single.... I'm kind of numb I think. Not crying.. A bit angry if anything. But I have said to him a million times 'if u want to be on ur own, then tell me'. So now he has. And I've been so unhappy, stressed, anxious, uncertain of where things are headed lately.. Neither of us has been ok. Yes we love each other- ALOT... But sometimes love isn't enough. I don't know if it's permanent.. I can't see past the next few days yet. I feel ok now but I'm dreading how ill feel tomoro when I wake. I've been fantasising about just leaving and going to London indefinitely- but unfortunately when I was there in Feb I had a MASSIVE screaming match with my sisters partner & it has sullied the friendship!! So I'd have nowhere to stay! I could go to scotland, there's loads of beds for me there. Who knows...

as i was reading ur posts I was just thinking how ur all kind of like little angels.. I can't see u, I've never met you, but I know ur out there somewhere & u aways respond. Your right Blythe, it's a special thread. if its ok with u girls i might stay In here & read ur posts & maybe reply here & there..


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## Jazzbird

Juniper - massive hugs from me. It must be horrendous for you. Why can't men figure out what they want?

All this uncertainty must be so tough to handle and then having to cancel ivf. I just can't imagine.

You of course are always welcome to post no matter what your situ. We would all miss you and your insights and support. 

I really hope you OH sorts himself out and comes back to you. 

Xxx


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## Jazzbird

AF arrived - next time I lose my mind I will remember it's just AF. 

Sorry gals! Xxx


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## Briss

Juniperjules, i am so sorry, sending you virtual hugs. why does it have to be so hard all the time. men just do not get it. i so hope he will come round, you have been together for so long and there is love, it must be enough! on the other hand it might be exactly because you've been together for so long, maybe it's time to reinvent your relationship? I do not really know how but I am sure you can figure it out. It may take a bit of time though. shame about the IVF but probably for the better at this point. it's a tough process and you will need his full support to go through with it. when things go bad with my DH I think to myself that there is still time and we live at an age where you can do anything and can have a child with a donor sperm, last resort I know it's depressing but it makes me feel better when I know that i can still have a child even if I have to bring him up on my own. But I truly hope you wont have to. hang in there it must get better. 

Jazzbird, sorry about AF. tough feeling but maybe you are starting your lucky cycle, who knows maybe your golden egg is growing as we speak. 

afm, it's a nightmare at home, everything is falling apart in the flat we are renting. every day a new issue, woke up to a note from downstairs that our water pipes are leaking. it's like the last straw, cant deal with the million things going wrong at the same time. plus DH was drinking last night again...


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## BBbliss

Juniperjules, I'm so sorry for the terrible week you are having. Your DH seams so confused and always giving mixed signals. Try to decided what's best and healthiest for you, take care of yourself in whatever way you can. I hope you find an answer soon. Take some control, ask for guidance and follow your instincts. Hugs

Afm, I tested last night (held it for 5hrs) and BFN.


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## Jazzbird

Sorry Briss for your flat. It's stress you just don't need. 

Sorry BBbliss for the BFN. 

Surely this thread is due a bit of good news.


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## Blythe

JuniperJules - I'm so sorry you are going through such a terrible time with your OH. I hope very much you can find a way through it all together. If there is love there on both sides then there is still hope.


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## gingmg

Juniper- sorry you have had a tough time lately. I agree with Blythe, where there is love, there is hope. However, having said that I do understand that sometimes love isn't enough. The good news is, you don't have to decide anything today, or tomorrow, or next week. Sometimes taking a break can be a good thing and all you need to recharge. This is the time to take care of yourself.


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## Jazzbird

Juniper I agree with Gingmg & Blythe but also try and take your own time to decide what you want. Make sure reconciliations are in your terms. 

You both have a long history and there is clearly love and commitment. Having said that, it is not too late for you to meet someone new. So whatever the outcome, know it is for the best.

Thinking of you at this really stressful time.


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## BBbliss

Girls, now it's me having a bad day... AF due today but nothing yet, so maybe tomorrow we'll see... Well, just got the SA results back from last Friday and I just don't know what to think, I'm just sad today, after a little over a month on tons of supplements my DF's SA come back worse, a LOT worse. It went from 10mil to 4??? The morphology stayed at 0% and now the motility is terrible, it was at 60% before and now it's 60% shaking in place. The rest is slow or not moving. What??? What now? Right after we spent over 5k in treatment to get my one tube open. We are going to find an urologist and go from there. These have been some trying times... So many disappointments, every month there is some thing new. Our luck needs to change, my DF is really upset.

Oh yeah! I'm 44next week :(


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## gingmg

BBbliss- I'm sorry. What a rotten day. I wish I could offer you some supps that help your DF's sperm, but I've never needed to pay attention to those things. I hope Briss can offer you some suggestions. I can, however, give you a big virtual hug!


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## Briss

BBbliss, I am so sorry about SA. i think 60% motility is actually good. count and morphology could be improved. With sperm count it's just so hard you never know what could have an affect, he could have just left a laptop on his lap for a while and that would have fried everything up or got some kind of virus that just passed through his body but it could destroy all sperm and would take weeks to repair the damage. I do not think it's a trend and his next SA may be much better. I agree that seeing a urologist is the right approach. 

I do not know if I mentioned him before, there is a guy called Rich on here https://www.fertilichat.com/forumdisplay.php?13-Male-Infertility

he understand sperm really well and gives lots of free advice on vit/supps explaining depending on SA what's the reason and what needs to change and how. 

I hope AF stays away.


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## BBbliss

Thank you girls, thank you for that link briss, I'm going to check it out. I wasn't clear about mot. I was 60%. Now it's 50% but the break down isn't good. We are at a loss of words. He doesn't even own a laptop, is a Heath nut, does not drink, works out 7 days a wk. we don't get how it got worse instead of better with supps. if af doesn't come and I get a Surprise now, it would truly be a miracle.


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## Briss

exercise is not necessarily a good thing for sperm actually, if he is lifting weight it requires testosterone so his body would be using it for muscles instead of sperm. 

afm, recovering from an awful argument with DH, he came home drank again and I just lost it. do not even know where we go from here. he has gone back to the pub...I doubt we will be doing IVF next cycle, he just does not have the sperm for it to be a success.


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## BBbliss

I just thought being healthy and in good shape would count for something. Oh well


I'm really sorry about your home situation Briss, I've been thru so much in my life that I can honestly say I understand. It's so hurtful when they do whatever they want with complete disregard for your feelings. It's just selfish

Btw, you know... My alcoholic uncle (who died from alcoholism) fathered 7 children. He was a worthless man I tell you, I still adore his daughters tho, they are some of my very favorite cousins... Another mystery of life.


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## Jazzbird

Hi BBbliss. So sorry to hear about SA. I think you said he'd been on supplements for just over a month? It takes 3 months to make sperm so I don't think he's been on them long enough to see a difference.

I don't know about western medicine but over exercise in Chinese medicine definitely can exacerbate sperm problems. Kidney energy is understood to be the source of life in Chinese medicine and is responsible for making good quality sperm. Lots of exercise - running and high impact exercise wears down kidney energy. If he already has a weakness in this area then it will wear his energy down further. I would not advise daily exercise unless it's just a gentle brisk 20-30 minute walk. Jogging, running and training are all too high impact. 

I don't know what supplements he is taking and you may have already tried Chinese herbs but I really recommend he visits a registered Chinese herbalist. I know people on this forum have had some disappointments with herbs but many studies show they are excellent for male infertility. They are well known in China for improving sperm but again it's got to be for at least 3-6 months before you'll see a difference. 

Thinking of you. X


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## Jazzbird

Briss - sorry you are having such a rough time with OH. I just wish someone could knock some sense into him. Do you have a mutual friend that could talk to him?


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## gingmg

Someone remind me not to go into the 2ww section or the general TTC boards. I seem to forget easily and then always find myself frustrated, angry, paranoid, and feeling down. Why do I do that to myself? Self torture?


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## Jazzbird

Do not go to the 2ww or general TTC boards!!! I really only read this board now. I did have a snoop in the general TTC board and was relieved to find lots of 20somethings struggling for months/years. 

I know we all know far too well that age plays a big role but then again it's most definitely not the only factor. Do you believe in a collective consciousness? That we can influence things together? I think I do. I have done Buddhist chanting before and love doing it with people. It's so soothing. 

Perhaps we need our own chant and to practice it together at certain times. That would be fun!
X

Praying that someone on this thread gets their BFP this month! D


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## Jazzbird

Ps BBbliss - I was thinking that it's not exercise that is bad for you but the type of exercise. In China they are very active. If you go to any park you will see people of all ages practicing Qi Gong - sometimes for hours. But it's slow and gentle. It is internally generating energy through coordination of breath and movement. It is focused more evenly throughout the body and leaves you feeling reenergised, rejuvenated. 

Western concepts of exercise are the opposite. It's about spending energy, isolating certain muscle groups and higher impact for shorter bursts. 

The concepts are totally different - so whilst pounding away on a treadmill is ill advised, gentle restorative exercise is very much encouraged.


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## Briss

BBbliss, I agree with Jazzbird re Chinese herbs for sperm count. My Chinese doc suggested shengji ngguben wan, my DH was on it most of this year but I cant really say whether they worked because first he was taking them while he was still drinking and then fasting (practically starving cos he was losing weight) and his sperm was really bad, then he quit beer for 3 months and his sperm improved dramatically but apart from these herbs he was also on tonnes of other supps so it could be anything, for my part I just think alcohol is the major contributing factors but my Chinese doc said these herbs helped her patients so worth a try but I would still recommend running it by a practitioner. 

https://www.google.co.uk/imgres?q=s...eherbs.org.uk/formulas/images/categories/Shen

re alcoholic uncle, stories like that make me lose faith. my DH was initially saying that alcohol has nothing to do with it cos he drinks with his friends who all have children. The problem is that when a man has very good sperm he can still father a child if he damages most of it with alcohol but when a man's fertility is impaired to begin with, alcohol just destroys what little he has. 

I feel like last 3 years we have been going in circles in our relationship. I need him to stop drinking completely until I have had children but he said it's very difficult for him and he needs my support but by that he means ridiculous things like I should stop watching TV or spending the whole evening on B&B, for some reason it really annoys him. he said he does not want to come home in the evening and goes to a pub instead cos of me cos he knows I am at home watching TV. Why would that annoy him? I explained to him many times that I am still mourning my father and unless I stare at the screen with my mind completely blank I start thinking about what happened over and over in my head and will cry non stop because there is no way I can accept what happened. TV is like antidepressant but with no side effect. also when I do TTC research I feel like I am doing something meaningful and it also stops me from being depressed. why would he want to take that from me? A few months ago he made same demands and I agreed but it just was ridiculous, he was out all evening and I was supposed to be at home alone with no right to watch TV &#8211; that's nonsensical 

Jazzbird, I do not really have anyone I could trust in dealing with our problems, I started thinking about counselling actually. 


gingmg, I almost never go to the general TTC boards and definitely never ever to the crazy 2ww section, it's for people who TTC for 2-4 months and find it really hard that they cant get pregnant straight away, listening to their complains just pains me.


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## Jazzbird

Briss - what about asking him what he would prefer to do with you if he comes home instead of drinking? I know it sounds silly but have you tried unplugging the tv, make a nice meal? Play a board game together? Read each other a book? What would he like to do with you? My OH complains sometimes we watch too much tv and I think it's better to try and find something fun to do together - bake a cake?! Play a video game even. 

BBbliss - if you do try Chinese herbs - you must go to a practitioner. It's not advisable taking a generic formula without prescription as everyone is different. There are some standard formulas but they are usually modified for each patient. Perhaps he needs kidney strengthening herbs but if say he has internal heat and that is the main cause he will need a mix that deals with both. 

Also you need to make sure the herbs are high quality and pure. You have no idea what's in anything bought off the Internet. Powdered herbs are a lower cost viable alternative to raw herbs which can be prohibitively expensive. 

There must be a governing body in US that regulates Chinese herbs - only go to a fully registered practitioner.


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## Juniperjules

Bbliss, am sorry re ur SA news. I can't offer any advise... Perhaps the only positive thing my OH & I had going for us is his SA so I have no experience with how to improve these things. It's very disheartening for u, but see the urologist & maybe they can shed some light?? Hugs to you x

Briss, it's pretty hard to hear when someone criticises what u do & how u act... When it's ur mood, life etc that are causing u to behave that way. One of the things my OH said to me recently was that I'm 'unmotivated'! To do wot? Was my reply??? And he made some annoying comment about me just being unmotivated in general... Like he has such an active exciting life! My next reply was 'well I work full time- your a musician who only actually works 3 nights a week for for maybe 3-4 hours a gig most of the year- so I'm doing more than u are!'... But even though I argued the point, I knew wot he was getting at. I have spent a lot of time being fairly low, flat, isolative & quite anti-social over recent years. Mostly bcos I've hated my life 80% of the time. My work is the place where i feel most alive. and its basically been bcos I wanted to start having babies, all of my friends were & I wasn't, bcos his mum is a nutter who has made my life hell for 18yrs but particularly the past 2 yrs..& bcos I have blamed him for both of the aforementioned problems. 

So you get stuck in a vicious circle...Unhappy/ sad/ depressed bcos of how life is treating you & things that have happened to you... And so u embrace the 'sit & watch TV' mentality (a metaphor)... Then the person u love gives u a hard time for being that way.. But without actually CHANGING anything... & ur supposed to somehow miraculously snap out of it & change how u feel/act. Impossible. It's pushing the proverbial s*#*t uphill. My OH has thankfully recognised that he has caused most of my misery, he admits that. Although he can't control his mother I will concede that, there are things he/we could have done to minimise the damage she's done. 

It's hard Briss. I mean wot exactly DOES ur DH want? If he isn't there why does it matter that ur watching TV? I guess maybe it's bcos to him it signifies ur mental state.. Ie sad/depressed/angry.. So it's not so much about the TV itself but wot it now symbolises. 

My relationship is a shambles right now so this is not meant to be a cheeky question- but why wouldn't he just decide to leave you if he is so unhappy? He seems to stay out drinking a lot when he knows ur at home alone, & he drinks a lot when he knows ur wanting to do IVF. So why exactly does he stay if he doesn't want to do any of the things he 'should' be doing?? I'm presuming you've asked this of him already- I just can't figure out what his angle is? I mean my OH is just plain & simple all messed up!! 45 & perhaps incapable of ever really living a grown up life, a Peter Pan who likes the thought of having me & a family but who may never be able to make that a reality. And I def blame his screwed up, maladaptive parenting for most of that (downside of working in psych is that I used to see things that I couldn't really explain- now I know exactly what I see & wot it means). 

Anyway, I'm rambling now. Thanks girls for all ur lovely msgs. I haven't spoken to OH since Sunday. I text him earlier to call me back later and he replied 'ok bubs'... Which I find unsettling bcos I'm not sure how pet names fit into a 'break' or break up- whatever this is?? Needless to say I'm feeling all upside down in general.


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## Blythe

Bbbliss :hugs: thinking of you. You deserve some positive news soon. 

Gingmg. Yes absolutely stay away from those boards. I find the girls there are really positive and over excited......TTC no longer has that effect on me!! I guess that is to be expected though as most of them don't hang around on those boards for too long. Me....jealous......what?!?

Briss - I'm sorry you and DH are not seeing eye to eye. What dies he say about doing IVF next month? Does he still want to leave it till next year?


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## Briss

Jazzbird, I know you are right but I just feel tired even thinking about doing something together in the evening&#8230; this is so sad, I am so boring but I am just not interested in anything not TTC related. I know I must find something for us to do. 

Juniperjules, maybe because I spend a lot of time at work, some of it at meetings, business lunches etc constantly being with people when I get home I just want to de-stress and stay still for a while. I do meet friends from time to time but I just feel I need alone time otherwise I cannot function and will be stressed the next day. going out with Dh does not help me de-stress so I avoid it. 

I feel like his demands that I stop watching TV etc is just to punish me in a way, he cant drink alcohol and he is going to be miserable so why should I do things that make me happy I should also be miserable &#8211; that kind of reasoning behind it. I might be wrong but that's how I see it. 

two years ago I did tell him he should leave me so I could have family with somebody else and I kept asking him why does not he leave? basically he says he loves me (only when he is really drank, cant remember him saying it when he was sober) and I am the only positive thing in his life. I think he is being childish (not sexy in a man), he wants to have me but he does not want to do anything to make it work. 

he said drinking is ruining his life and he wants to stop (he's been saying it last 2 years at least) but he will give me a list of things I am supposed to do in return&#8230; 

Blythe, he does not even talk about IVF, he said I did not have a mc on our first IVF (no understanding what chemical is) and anyway it was embryologist fault for picking a bad sperm (again no understanding how these things work). If you listen to him you will find that everyone is blame but him. 

After last night's drama I am physically exhausted and have sore throat (all that shouting).


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## Jazzbird

Awww Briss - it's so so hard. My OH said I don't do anything fun with him anymore - but how can I do something fun when I'm spending 4 hours a day commuting. I totally understand needing to decompress in front of tv. It's all I want to do. My OH is always pushing for weekends here and there, visiting this person etc and I have no energy on weekends either because I need to get the rest to face another week of commuting. 

Your OH sounds very childish but I would call his bluff and ask him what he wants you to give up. Do it on a trial basis and ask what he'd like to do with you instead. Just go along with it. Better to move forwards than keep having the sane arguments. 

X


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## Jazzbird

And Briss - counselling is an excellent idea.


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## BBbliss

Yes! Counseling is worth a try. It does sound like he loves you, briss, what don't you try something like "you are right I'm addicted to this TV so I understand how it feels to you to leave the drinking. I know it's hard, as it is for me, so what can we do together to support each-other and help each- other get over our vices?" Sometimes people know they are wrong but still get defensive, it's different when you start by putting yourself in their shoes, that way the walls don't go up so quickly. Also, I wanted to say sorry for posting about my uncle, it was insensitive and you are right, some of us can afford to be so careless, I guess I was having one of those " it's not fair" moments. 
My DF sent me a note saying he finally meets someone he wants to have children with and his sperm don't work. I was feeling we were working to get some positive improvement and instead it got so much worse. I know it takes a couple of months for the supplement and herbs to work, I just didn't think it would get worse so fast. I made him quit his hot yoga two months ago! But I don't think I can get him to stop playing tennis. Well, after the initial shock, he came home and said he just wants to go strait to IVF/ICSI now. So I guess it's up to me and I just need to get emotionally ready that step. He doesn't want to wait, I personally want to wait to January. 

Jazz, juniper, Blythe, ging... Xoxo thank you for your support.


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## Briss

BBbliss, do not worry about your uncle story, I hear these things all the time it just confirms what I feel &#8211; some things happen for no reason. the other day my mum wanted to cheer me up and mentioned some 60 year old getting pregnant naturally and I started crying cos it had a totally positive effect from what she intended, to me it sounded like even a 60 year old has better chances getting pregnant than me&#8230; how is this fair? ridiculous I know, LTTTC just makes you crazy.

I agree you should wait because even for IVF/ICSi you need his best possible sperm. give it 1-2 more months on supps. I think tennis should not affect his SA. 

Jazzbird, I wont be able even to watch TV after 4 hour commute! I do not know how you do it! so tough! 

I am going to check another IVF clinic tonight, hopefully DH can join me. they do natural IVF and IMSI (which is ICSI only better). hoping he is sober tonight so we could discuss when he is quitting beer. it's not that he drinks a lot but he gets drank very quickly &#8211; couple of pints is all it takes. I became so sensitive to alcohol I can smell anyone who has' just been to a pub from a distance&#8230; paranoia of some sort


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## Jazzbird

BBbliss - I agree - wait til jan. Try and see a Chinese herbalist in the meantime. My friends OH had poor motility and 0 morphology. They eventually tried Chinese herbs - 6 months later his morphology was considered normal and they were able to bypass ICSI and have IVF which luckily worked first time. 

I still think daily tennis is pretty hardcore (how many hours a day does he play?) but could he drop it down to every other day? Your body needs rest in between bouts of exercise and besides it's only until you conceive. He does sound very lovely and supportive though which is great.

Thanks Briss for your comments about my commute. It's 2 hours each way and I'm kind of annoyed that my OH is not just accepting my life is pretty non existent outside of work. I feel so much pressure to visit his family, friends - do fun activities. He's an extrovert and I'm not. Yesterday I said I didn't really like my life Monday to Friday and he took great offence saying it made him sad and scared. 

I think I need some time away. All this commuting TTC - it's just stressful and I need understanding.


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## Briss

Jazzbird, I totally understand what you mean re visiting his family, friends etc. I am really lucky my family understands even though they are extroverts. after the chemical I went home but simply could not be around people and my brother's girlfriend had to leave (she is currently living there), there was also some other relative who was supposed to be staying but my mum re-arranged it in a way there was no one there but my mum and my brother. I know it was not very nice and I did bring a present for my brother's girlfriend as an apology (for basically kicking her out but she is sort of outside my comfort zone, I would not be able to relax around her in the same way as I would around my mum and brother cos she would want to talk etc) but I just know there are times where my needs should come first. so i was really grateful to my family for trying to understand.

Just got back from the open evening at CRGH. Dh also joined me (I could just tell he had half pint or something beforehand, so annoying). I was mainly interested in IMSI and was a bit disappointed as this is very new procedure and apparently they only used it for about a year so not that much statistics. IMSI cannot guarantee that the sperm they pick for ICSI will be chromosomally OK but it increases the chances. They also said with my high FSH natural IVF is probably the way to go. they are against mild stimulation: either full on stimulation or completely natural cycle. the doc seemed to be impressed with my chemical (I mean why they are so excited about it, he was like that's great. really?) I know what he meant that considering that we only had one egg it does seem positive but of course it isn't. he also said considering my age/FSH/AMH it could have been the egg. Yes I know but I am quite sure it was the sperm considering my DH was drinking beer every day but of course I could not say that to him was trying to spare my DH the embarrassment. I was quite annoyed with people who turned up, unlike Create clients they seem to know so little they were asking very basic IVF questions and most questions were about success rate. I mean this is so simple and something you can easily check yourself before coming here. It was good that the docs and embryologist stayed after the session to talk to each couple. It would definitely be far more expensive than at Create: natural cycle 5,800 + ICSI 1,000 (I am sure there will be additional expenses) but DH liked them much better than Create. DH was annoyed that at Create I was seen by different person every time and that I was put on mild stim but the second egg was not collected. I personally liked Create, they are low key but everyone is very nice and they almost got us there. I am so sure if it was not for hubby's poor sperm we would have been happily pregnant now.


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## BBbliss

Jazz, that commute is brutal. I had a 3 hour one today and my back hurts from it. No wonder you just crave your quiet time. You deserve it! 

Briss, thanks for the update. I first heard of iMSI with you and I did a quick read today and that's just what I read, about it being too new to have statistics on. 

Well, so I feel better today about my decision to go for IVF ICSI in January. I'm going to try and relax for the next couple of months and not temp or do opks. I'm going to make it a part time job instead of the full time job it's been, hehe and AF has not arrived, the always so hopeful in me tested this morning and yes it was a BFN. So it looks like my LP has gone from 10 to 12 to now 14 days long so I'm going to say that's a good thing :)


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## BBbliss

TTC angels... That's what you all are. Thank you for being here xoxo


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## Briss

Been to gyno today. When I listed all my complaints it seemed like I have a really messed up body but she listened and then said it all sounds like my insides are functioning properly :) She did a scan and did not see any cervical cysts which is a relief, I hate it when they find new things for me to worry about. my lining is 13 mm which super good for 7 DPO as they want it to be at least 8mm. she said I had quite few follicles on the left and 3 on the right (more than before). She did say that my right cyst might be to blame for the right ovary being slower as it takes up some space on the ovary so possible that's why less follicles are being developed but removing the cyst may cause more damage to the ovary so she would definitely leave the cyst in. She did not think the cyst was affecting my FSH. She confirmed that I ovulated from left ovary this cycle (it was good to hear cos my temp is just crazy this cycle and I started doubting whether I ovulated at all). She could not say why I started spotting after AF, there only way to find out is to do another hysteroscopy with biopsy considering we are TTC this is just not worth it. She gave me antibiotics just in case but it may not resolve the issue so up to me if I want to take them. Overall she said everything is in order I just need to get pregnant...


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## Blythe

All sounds positive Briss. It's good to walk away from one of those appts with positive news. Are you going to go to crgc and bit create for next IVF?

I have had a smily face +opk for 4 days running. I think it is to do with the red blossom clover drops I was taking pre O. Maybe I'm ovulating multiple eggs :) I told DH he may need to bd again this week and he looked pretty upset!


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## Briss

I know, every time I come back from my app I am almost crying cos they come up with all sorts of issues wrong with me. Do you think the length of LH surge has any significance? I do not know yet where we are going for our next IVF. I will talk to Create next week at my follow up app and may decide then. I am worried about DH's drinking affecting our success. cant go through it all again knowing his sperm is no good. I need him to quit beer before we can go ahead with the next cycle. The Gyno actually said we could try stims cos my AMH and AFC are not too bad but we need to find a clinic that knows how to work with high FSH ladies. crgc seemed good and their stats are great but the doc was not impressed with my FSH which worries me a little and the price is much higher than Create. Quite a few people are recommending Lister Hospital, maybe I will check it out as well.


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## Jazzbird

Hey Briss - happy to read things are moving in the right direction. Have you had a quiet word with your specialist about DHs drinking? Perhaps you could get them to talk about the importance of quitting cigarettes and alcohol. I know you don't smoke but perhaps if it came from a specialist he'd be more likely to comply?


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## Blythe

the frustrating thing about days of positive opks, particularly when i have not been temping is the uncertainty of ovulation. i know they say ignore the others but if there is still a LH surge i always thought ovulation occurred after it had subsided but perhaps it happens duringi need a sonographer in residence. 

IVF is a massive thing, even if you can afford a few rounds you still want to approach each with both parties fully committed and on board. i know my DH would not quit drink for 3 months but he would restrict it too weekends [well with exception of thursdays]. having said all that my DH does not want to go ahead with IVF and wants to proceed with adoption instead. i feel in order to go ahead with that i need to have exhausted all avenues first to have my own child. i will try and remain positive that we will not have to argue over this point and pregnancy will occur.

i will take a look at the lister later too


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## Briss

it's really interesting about long LH surge. I did not really check this properly but my LH surge usually lasts 2 days. It does seem like it might mean you are releasing more than one egg https://www.crazy2conceive.com/long-lh-surge/ wouldn't it be wonderful!! it could also mean a few "false starts" before the real thing actually comes so you should keep BDing (I know easier said than done).


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## Blythe

Ive also been taking mega amount if b12 for myhairloss so i wonder if that has affected my cycle too.....although i suspect mainly the red blossom drops as i was overdosing. I hoping not to see another smily face tomorrow as i think il be lucky to squeeze one more bd out this month!

I need to lose some weight.....i cannot stop eating due to the cold weather. Im getting too big and notice it on my face. I had 2 whispers today then a big pack of giant buttons just now! Uggggg i feel out of control.....which is worse than the fat bit :( 

Just been looking at my elephant again.......here is an explaination re the downward trunk. 

Elephant as Fertility Feng Shui cure:One of the most popular Feng Shui symbol for Fertility cure is to display elephant images beside your bed. At the same times it promotes love and faithfulness between couples. If you are using the elephant images as Fertility Feng Shui cure, then it is advisable to choose an elephant with intertwined trunk or trunk down. There are several explanations why we should choose or use the elephant with trunk down for this specific Feng Shui application, one of them being that the elephant with the trunk down stores and accumulates Chi or energy. An elephant with the trunk down will also be overcome various obstacles, so it makes sense that this image would be used for a couple who is looking for a Fertility Feng Shui cure.


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## Blythe

Ps....thanks for link....more than one egg would be wonderful :)


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## Briss

re elephant, I can totally see the source of our infertility issues - we brought from our honeymoon in Thailand an elephant with his trunk up... big mistake! it probably ate all our Chi :)

I also need to lose a bit of weight. I was so close to my old self but am moving away from it with every cinnamon bun. I got chinese rope finally and tried jumping it. Oh boy, how did I do it as a child I have no idea, I simply cannot jump that high I do not even see how it's physically possible. I can do the medium size jumps (it's quite enjoyable actually) but anything above my bum is just impossible. I used to jump shoulder high rope...

Blythe, did B12 help with hair loss? 

Jazzbird, to be completely honest I am really embarrassed to talk about Dh's drinking. I even hide the truth from my mum as much as I can because I feel silly to stay in a relationship with a person who drinks. I want children more than anything and the main reason I do not have them is because my husband drinks - the solution seems simple that i should leave him and I do not. I can hardly respect myself for that. Our FS was aware of the issues cos DH honestly wrote on our form how many units he was consuming a week and she immediately picked up on this.


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## Briss

Blythe, I am warming up to lister, they have experience in dealing with high FSH ladies and they have some useful info on supp including DHEA https://www.ivf.org.uk/media/54653/Low-Reserve-or-poor-response-what-can-we-do.pdf The also recommend 600 of coq10.


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## Blythe

i read that.very interestingi like that they have addressed TCM, aspirin and coq10. I have really upped my COQ10 intake this last couple of months although I'm inclined to take it easier on the supplement front during the 2WWfor financial considerations if nothing else. It helps when i come to the end of the month and another looming BFN if i can occupy myself with the question of what supplements i will use that month. i have to say i still have my DHEA and its the finest quality available. i do hate things going to waste so may start supplementing again but just 25mg every other day.

i have been supplementing with these for hair loss:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B001LR5ONY/ref=oh_details_o00_s00_i01?ie=UTF8&psc=1

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B003NLCRA4/ref=oh_details_o00_s00_i02?ie=UTF8&psc=1

so hoping i get an all round beatifying effect from these :) I also have super expensive hair loss shampoo and have stopped washing my hair as often as i was. it certainly has not got any worse so that is a good thing.


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## Blythe

https://www.vega-licious.com/can-vi...stop-miscarriages-early-menopause-amenorrhea/

Apparently b12 can help with sperm count.


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## Briss

Blythe, these supps look really good, i may switch from ordinary B12 to Solgar brand, it's supposed to be good for sperm. Go easy on Hubner Silicea, I read silicon dioxide can cause kidney damage that cannot be reversed if taken for a long time.


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## Briss

Blythe said:


> https://www.vega-licious.com/can-vi...stop-miscarriages-early-menopause-amenorrhea/
> 
> Apparently b12 can help with sperm count.

Thanks! I've been giving it to my DH but I used H&B brand maybe it's just not potent enough, will try Solgar.


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## Blythe

There are few things i recommend but those solgar pills are fab. I know you already take the folate onesi really do notice a difference. These B12 ones are tiny little nuggets but i do notice a lift since taking them.

i am now in 2WW and taking:

Folate 800 MCG
https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B002HYNF4A/ref=oh_details_o07_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Vit B12 1000 MCG
https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B001LR5ONY/ref=oh_details_o00_s00_i01?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Whole Fish Oil [wild salmon]
https://www.amazon.co.uk/New-Chapte...=1-2-fkmr1&keywords=wholemega+extra+virgin+30

liquid iron
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Vitabiotic...987189&sr=1-2&keywords=vitabiotics+feroglobin

500 mg ubiqionol COQ10
https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B001FFESTI/ref=oh_details_o08_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

silicea
https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B003NLCRA4/ref=oh_details_o00_s00_i02?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Vit C 1500mg
https://www.hollandandbarrett.com/pages/product_detail.asp?pid=105

just before bed i have started taking Magnesium [see some girls chatting about this recently so going to give it a go..sweetmel says her BFP is due to this]
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Magnesium-...8&qid=1383987297&sr=8-1&keywords=magnesium+ok


----------



## Briss

Blythe, thanks! really good sources of vitamins. it made me want to reconsider my usual ones cos I've been taking more or less the same brands for 2 years now. Solgar is really good and potent but i think they are 100% synthetic? well, they smell very synthetic anyway. Higher natura are supposed to be food based and all natural but they can smell quite bad because of that, my DH cant take them at all. (most recently he refused all vitamins and said i have to chose either no beer and no vitamins or beer+vitamins!! there is no end to this nonsense).

Cant take any more pineapples, I think I done this cycle, my mouth is sore cos I was eating half pineapple a day. my lining was good actually so they must be doing their bit. it's actually similar to what the lady says in your article - my tongue feels like it has paper cuts. and my acu doc also said I have excess heat. I wonder if I also have vitamin B12 deficiency that is causing my sore tongue. Although I was sure everyone had the same soreness of the mouth after eating lots of pineapples? is it just me? also from the article it has to be combined with a genetic error which I probably do not have as I was pregnant before. are you considering B12 shots? 

do you think Magnesium that's in pregnacare or other multi vits is not sufficient?

Am facing more repair works this weekend, I am glad it's finally progressing somewhere but so slowly and it requires constant attention, chasing people, demanding things - so tiring!


----------



## Blythe

I sympathise on the renting/things going wrong. Our washing mschibe keeps flooding the kitchen and in fact the wood all around the sink is moldy and rotting so much so that the sink is in danger of collapsing. The landlords have cut corners and I have been putting off contacting them as I don't want them to put rent up. 

Do DH got back from work and went potty as kitchen flooded and he got wet. So we argued about how best to sort then argument ended with him saying "don't ask me again to try and get you pregnant". As if!! I'm just happy that I think I have ovulated so he can say what he wants. He is now in huff in the other room which also suits as I can now watch what I want on tv this evening.


----------



## Briss

totally, only there is nothing decent on TV at the moment, am watching Rosemary and Thyme... my DH says I watch things that are intended for elderly people, just tells you what a fun person I am :(

am reading "your pregnancy week by week" by Lesley Regan. Very colourful and informative book and helps me stay positive 

Our floor in the bathroom is just scary and is getting worse. Landlord does not want to agree to pay for repairs, it's been 8 months! washing machine has been out of order for 3 weeks! Living room looks like a construction sight. nightmare!


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## Blythe

Landlords drive me mad.I'm sorry you are having to dispute them paying for things! We are paying £1200 pcm which is pretty good for round here..even though 'round here' is dirty and full of crime! Your landlord will probably end up paying more if he does not fork out now..as if its the bathroom floor i would imagine it could potentially affect your neightboursunless you are on GF.

re the B12 shotsi did make some enquiries as it was one thing the astrologist mentioned. But the clinics i contacted wanted a prescriptioni cannot remember the cost but it was quite extortionate. 

i have just chopped up a pineapple so will eat over the next 3 days. 

when do you start with the mega Vit C intakeimmediately after O or a few days after?


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## Briss

Our landlords seems to be a nice family but they are elderly and live abroad (Cyprus or Greece I think) most likely off our rental payments so we are dealing with the property managers. You are right our bathroom floor is already leaking to the flat below. We pay 1,600 a months which is supposed to be really cheap for our area but I personally think it's a high way robbery. and as if I was not dealing with enough issues at home our kettle stopped working!! Cant believe this. 

I start Vit C once I am sure I ovulated, 

Dh is refusing vitamins :( last night I came up with a vicious plan to get at least some antioxidants in him and mixed some powder Vit C into olive oil salad dressing, I also broke Vit E capsule and squeezed whatever was in there into olive oil... He did not notice anything :) probably because I added plenty of garlic. I wonder if Vit E is still active if you take it our of its capsule. My mum used to take Vit E out and applied it directly to her skin instead of lotion. No idea what to do with the rest of his vits. I am sure if I start adding crashed Zink and Vit B12 he will notice the taste... 

Watched a movie last night based on true story how a husband poisoned his wife with selenium. a bit scary cos I have my DH on selenium for over a year. It's supposed to improve sperm but it can be toxic.

I wonder why the B12 shots are expensive while vit B12 is actually cheap. Can you get your DP to give you a prescription? 

well done on BD! I think you covered all your basis this cycle. fingers crossed! 

I've invested in VIP FF for 3 months...


----------



## Blythe

excellent re full membership - i can do a bit of chart stalking! your pre-o temps have made your chart look a bit odd.

I'm not sure about getting a prescription for the shotsthey will probably send me for some blood profiling although i would have to give them a good reason to do that. I cannot imagine my B12 is that poori have been told my iron count is low before but nothing a pill couldn't sort. 

i like the plan re getting vits into DH.i don't like those capsule shells anyhowthey have soy in so i think the Vit e is probably better out of them to be honest.

yes my BD plan this month was less stressful as i did not nag and tried very hard not to say to DH all the things that were going around my head during the fertile period [usually stuff that is pretty offensive to him of course!] i usually try and BD day of +opk and day after but BD two days in a row does not sit well with DH.


----------



## Briss

my temp is weird this cycle, it's high and chaotic.

natural IVF is so much cheaper in Germany, apparently less than 2,000 euros and if no eggs collected you do not pay full amount. it's working out cheaper even with flights and hotel... something to think about. Dovkav is doing her 4th natural and has changed the clinic for a private one so if she is successful I am thinking of going there myself.

your hair is falling out, is it not good enough reason for bloods?

Our living room is finally done! it will probably take a few days for the smell of painting to disappear. they've replaced the table that they broke and I got a new kettle. wonderful! tbh, while the living room was out we spent the entire weekend in bed with our laptops and books. feels great almost like honeymoon minus the sex of course


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## gingmg

Sore back, mild cramps- AF should be here soon. I'm so sick of not being pregnant. Just treated myself to some major retail therapy and although I don't really feel better, I'll look better, and for now that's going to have to be enough. Hope someone gets lucky soon.


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## gingmg

I thought I was ready for Ivf, but I think I want to do one or two more IUIs with a different donor first, then move along to IVF after the holidays.


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## Blythe

Hi gingmg. I'm so sorry that AF is on way. :flower: I think giving another donor a go sounds like a good plan. 

:flower:


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## Briss

gingmg. I agree maybe it's something to do with the sperm, try a different donor. IVF is really full on and you may not even need it. really sorry that it feels like AF is here, I hope it will stay away for the next 9 months. you have been doing marvelously re smoking!


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## Jazzbird

Sorry Gingmg - it's so hard going through the monthly roller coaster. Agree with the gals - try another donor - sometimes the chemistry between egg and sperm isn't quite right. 

Hugs to you xxx


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## Briss

I went to CRGH for a short one to one with my list of questions. Their approach is so different from Create. They are determined to succeed but it scares me. they look more high end compared to Create. I have a few concerns (i) They sound a little bit ruthless. for example, at Create they are focused on preserving your health and wont do anything that may damage it even if it means minimising your chances of pregnancy, so they did not go after my second egg because the cyst was in the way. Now at CRGH, they say it depends on the cyst and in certain circumstances they will just go through the cyst in order to collect the eggs even though it's going to be punctured and spill into my abdomen. it's no biggie apparently. I can just take some antibiotics. what??? they will decide after the tests whether they do stims or not and with them you will just have to let it go completely and let them do whatever they want really. you will have no control so trusting them is crucial. (ii) They say they have extensive experience with high FSh and yet they wont do stims with FSH above 15 on any given cycle. I mean 15 is not that high! (iii) they cant do anything for sperm. it's the usual ICSI. they can do IMSi but it's still about morphology not chromosomes so I am not sure whether it's worth paying for. they suggested antioxidants (basically wellmen conception) and frequent ejaculation (every other day!!) to improve sperm quality (iv) cost &#8211; major concern cos they will start with doing your entire profile, it's all very expensive and I think it'll be twice as much as at Create, if not more. 

Lister booked me for their open day in January!! they seem to be very popular.


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## Briss

I changed my settings on FF so I think you can see full chart now, gosh I have so many symptoms and other stuff to report on a daily basis, it does look like an addiction&#8230;


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## Jazzbird

Wow Briss - I can't believe you record all that stuff. It's seriously impressive. I'm going the other way - stopped temping & just take vitamins and my Chinese herbs. I do opk tests and observe cervical mucus but that's it. I perhaps wrongly feel that none of it makes any difference at all.

I almost wish they could find something wrong ... then I could look for a solution but it just seems to be luck or lack of it. My mum was saying last week she never tried to get pregnant - she has no idea when you ovulate or anything about cycles and timing. 

How can I be born from someone as relaxed and fertile as that?!


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## gingmg

Briss- sound like a lot to think about with the different clinics. Follow your gut and I'm sure you will make the right decision.


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## Briss

Jazzbird, I agree it does not make any difference at all in terms of getting me pregnant but it helps me stay tuned to my body and I can see what changes certain supps makes to my charts.

I was conceived while my parents were actually using some sort of protection&#8230; they just got married and did not want to have children straight away but I had other plans&#8230; when my mum announced she was pregnant dad said it was impossible :)

gingmg, how are you coping? I am more inclined to try with the same clinic again. I really like their "gently gently" approach. let's see what they say tomorrow.

I've been thinking all day how to add selenium and zinc to my DH's dinner. surely it's going to effect taste? I am making herring today so will be crashing selenium and zinc tablets into the oil. why does it have to be so bloody hard!


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## Jazzbird

I would probably do the same as you Briss. Go with the gentler approach. 

It's amazing how some people get pregnant and others struggle. It does just feel so random. 

Hugs to everyone! I'm stuck in the worst possible queue you could imagine at bank. It's literally a sea of people stuck trying to get through an underpass. Just when I thought my 2 hour commute was bad. It's going to be more like 3 hours thus evening


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## gingmg

I'm ok. Just so tired of this roller coaster! I'm ready to pregnant already! Totally wasting my day scrolling around this site, should be resting because I have to work tonight, but oh well. Won't be the first or last time I'll be awake for 24 hours.


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## gingmg

Jazzbird-I feel your pain. We moved out of the city in august, and commuter traffic sucks. It can take me over 2 hours to drive 30 miles, then other days its an easy 30 mins. I don't understand traffic.


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## Briss

ladies, I need your advice. Create is saying we need to step up for the second IVF cycle and do proper stimulation with Gonal F. That's completely the opposite from what I was expecting. I thought they would say no stimulation and let's do natural cycle. I do not know what to do because the whole point of going to Create is cos they use natural approach. Stims is the opposite of natural. maybe I should just go to CRGH cos these guys will do proper stims and their ratings for stim cycles are super (they are second in London I think). the only thing is CRGH may not do stim if my FSH is above 15 (which it is unfortunately) and they are so much more expensive. What would you recommend?


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## Jazzbird

If it were me - I would rather go through one high stim cycle than 3 naturals. Also I would go for the clinic with the best success rate. 

If you can afford it and they agree to do it, I would pick the CRGH clinic. 

Whilst it might be harsher on your body, so would 2+ natural cycles. IVF is intrusive no matter which route you take.

But it is your decision and you must go with your gut feel. We're all here for you no matter what


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## Blythe

When you remove cash from the equation i think its got to be CRGH. the best thing about create is that they look to keep the meds to a minimum so if they are now looking to do a more standard stimmed IVF i would be inclined to go somewhere else [whos no 1 in London?] Also your DH likes them so thats going to helphopefully too if he is paying he will keep the booze to an absolute minimum for a couple of weeks.


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## BBbliss

https://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2011-05/esoh-1ei050911.php

Just found this, it makes me think a full stim cycle would give you better odds. I feel I'm going to aim to get the best numbers, I also feel I don't have the time to keep going back again and again, so my decision is personal. 

I know being aggressive is very very tuff on your body, but also trying multiple cycles could be even harder emotionally.


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## Blythe

Can one follie produce more than one egg for collection?


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## Briss

Jazzbird, thank you, that makes sense. I completely lost my gut feeling. I really set my mind to do another natural cycle at Create. feel a little uneasy with how things are turning out but maybe it's a good thing that they want to stim me?

Blythe, the last time I checked ARGC were number one https://www.argc.co.uk/ivf-prices but they are cheeky and treat older ladies at their sister clinic so I do not believe in their stats. Also they are very aggressive with their immune testing. If we are going stims it's between CRGH (good stats) and Lister (experience with high FSH) but I have not spoken to anyone at Lister yet so if we decide to do it next cycle it has to be CRGH I guess. DH seemed to like CRGH (although he was reading a book the entire open evening, I am not sure he heard much), his general view is let's just do it one time but so it counts and that's CRGH's approach, anything it takes to maximise chances. they will basically go through my body like an egg farm scary

BBbliss, a full stim cycle would definitely give you better odds but the question is whether you really need it? I think we could get pregnant with just one egg (we almost did). besides there is no way they can get 15 eggs off my ovaries, 8 is maximum for next cycle. but I totally understand what you mean.

ladies, thank you for your input I will talk to DH (hopefully) today and will book the app tomorrow. I need to get meds on Thursday if I am to start stims on CD 2 cos I will be in Switzerland at the beginning of my cycle so would need to take them with me.


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## Briss

Blythe I know that not all follicles will have eggs but I am not sure if one follie can produce more than one egg. it probably happens but must be rare. one embryo can divide into two after blastocyst stage but I do not have any identical twins in my family so there is zero chance of this happening to us.


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## gingmg

Briss- big diecisions!! I personally would do the stimming and give yourself the best chances, but having said that, I also haven't done the research you have so I don't know all that goes into it, or all the risks. If they could even get 5-8 eggs, maybe you would have one or two to freeze for the next time around and won't have to do any stimming. It might be worth a shot not to have to do this over and over again. You did get very lucky with your natural IVF (I mean in that it was trying to take) but what if that one little embryo never made it to day 2 to be put back? It's a big decision, and I'm sure whichever way you go, it will be the right one.


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## Briss

gingmg, thank you! There is a lot to think about.

basically, I could not sleep all night and feel very stressed at the moment. DH decided we should go back to Create. I think it's mainly cash decision: 5K vs <8K. I almost persuaded myself that we should move to CRGH and then he comes back with Create. Quite unexpected cos it's a bit contrary to what he was saying before. I hope we are doing the right thing but I really cant tell. I realised that deep down I resent IVf so maybe that's why I cannot chose a clinic, I do not like any of them. I guess I need to start thinking positive about Create now. I talked to a couple of ladies who got disappointed with create after couple of cycles and went to lister. But my situation is different so maybe I will get lucky this time. Besides they will do mild stims and probably wont touch my right ovary unless the follicles will be conveniently located. Hopefully I will get out of it pregnant and with my health intact. 

My temp dropped this morning and I strongly feel AF may come today which is awful cos it's just 2 days too early. either CBFM did not get my peak right or IVF screwed my otherwise perfect 14 day LH!


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## Jazzbird

Briss - try not to pay too much attention to this cycle. The drugs will disrupt it for a bit. 

I understand your feelings towards ivf but you need to be as relaxed as poss - so try and see it as the wonderful technology that is giving you the chance to have the baby you so long for. 

I think we all feel a reluctance towards ivf. I really don't want to have it - but at some point we will have to seriously consider it or face a childless future. Or go for adoption. 

So hard. :-(


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## Blythe

Sometimes I read posts that really infuriate me. There is one on ltttc about sperm count at mo and a woman worried about her DHs count which is over 100 million and about 6% morp!!!! So a poster said that anything under 4% you would need IVF icsi. Seriously it maddens me when people make what they believe to be factual statements about these things. Even though I know it's tosh I am now thinking what's the point. 

After 3 years if BDing around ovulation I have no pregnancy. I always have a couple of almost euphoric days post ovulation where I am filled with positivity (probably due to fact I don't have to nag for sex) then I hit a low again. 

We have decided IVF is not a financial option for us. Well shahs and he is not at keen particularly given my chances of sucess. I will at least push for 2/3 x Iuis which I can do at kings for just over 1k. DH wants to adopt which I will start looking at in new year to see what's what. 

I was considering tcm again but just feel I've given it my best and it just did not work for me. 

Briss. I know that pre AF feeling. In fact I feel like I have it today.....for me it's like a rush of warm blood inside. 

I'm sick of it.....what the f**k do we have to do to get pregnant around here?!?!!


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## Briss

Blythe, my sentiments exactly. the whole ttc/ttc+ivf etc thing is deeply frustrating. it has to be the most natural thing in the world and nature should really encourage us to have babies, not the other way around. I am feeling rather poorly today, have very bad headache and feel feverish. the idea of stims and another EC is depressing and scary. I've been holding my tears all day today, I do not know what's wrong with me. I guess I was hoping I will get pregnant naturally this cycle against all odds but this is just too much to ask. 

count of over 100 million and about 6% morp sounds like a dream! still, apparently even such fantastic sperm can be no good due to DNA fragmentation. I was really surprised but a lady shared her story they had really good sperm which did not fertilise eggs, once they had DNA fragmentation test it explained why. a sperm can look healthy but have damaged DNA which you cant really see when you do ICSI. at CRGH I was told to BD at least every other day throughout the cycle to improve sperm quality and decrease DNA fragmentation &#8230; I mentioned it to DH and he gave me that funny look like I am talking complete non sense. DH says his contribution is 5K and I should leave him alone. after this cycle we will have to take a break from treatments &#8230;

I think it's a generally accepted policy in IVF clinics that anything under 4% morp you would need icsi as opposed to IVF. I am still not quite convinced cos there are so many stories of people getting naturally pregnant with 0% morp. A few years ago my DH had below 5% morp but it did not really make any difference to us. At Create I was told that ICSI has its own risks. I also read that it ruins eggs that are not completely mature. so much conflicting info my head is spinning. I feel like the more I read the less I understand. everything is a gamble. 

IUI is a good option cos your DH's SA was OK. 

my pre AF feeling is slightly different, I do not even know how to describe it, possibly it's something to do with cervix changing its position. Woke up to a very nasty acne breakout &#8211; combined with low temp and headache is a definite sign of AF.


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## Briss

Jazzbird said:


> Briss - try not to pay too much attention to this cycle. The drugs will disrupt it for a bit.
> 
> I understand your feelings towards ivf but you need to be as relaxed as poss - so try and see it as the wonderful technology that is giving you the chance to have the baby you so long for.
> 
> I think we all feel a reluctance towards ivf. I really don't want to have it - but at some point we will have to seriously consider it or face a childless future. Or go for adoption.
> 
> So hard. :-(

Jazzbird, thank you I completely agree. I guess I just need to take it out of my system before I can pull myself back together and start feeling positive and hopeful about our next attempt.


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## gingmg

Blythe and Briss- sorry to hear that AF is coming, I'm right there with you both. Blythe I think your plan is a good one. Why not try IUIs? Biss- I think when it comes to clinics, the only people who love their clinic are the ones that had success. I'm constantly frustrated with our clinic, but it's mostly because nothing is working.

I know in the grand scheme of things 10months for me isn't all that long, but it feels long and I can't imagine doing this for much longer. I don't know, maybe it has something to do with the IUIs and that our whole journey has never been about us, there have been people poking and prodding me from day one. I think that since our entire journey has been IUIs it makes me feel like I do need IVF, I can't imagine a clinic letting a heterosexual couple have 10 IUIs. And it's not the sperm, in order to qualify to be a donor their counts/motility/morphology has to be above average. We will switch donors but without IVF, I doubt it will make a difference. We will do one more IUI, hopefully they will up my gonal F this time again. This last cycle I had two good size follies, but I think the goal is 3. I'm just so frustrated with this entire process. DW and I have been arguing a lot lately, and I can't help but think I'm not getting pregnant because we are in touch spot right now. 
Hugs to everyone, we will get through this!!


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## Briss

gingmg, what dose of gonal F are you on? and for how many days?


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## Blythe

gingmg said:


> Blythe and Briss- sorry to hear that AF is coming, I'm right there with you both. Blythe I think your plan is a good one. Why not try IUIs? Biss- I think when it comes to clinics, the only people who love their clinic are the ones that had success. I'm constantly frustrated with our clinic, but it's mostly because nothing is working.
> 
> I know in the grand scheme of things 10months for me isn't all that long, but it feels long and I can't imagine doing this for much longer. I don't know, maybe it has something to do with the IUIs and that our whole journey has never been about us, there have been people poking and prodding me from day one. I think that since our entire journey has been IUIs it makes me feel like I do need IVF, I can't imagine a clinic letting a heterosexual couple have 10 IUIs. And it's not the sperm, in order to qualify to be a donor their counts/motility/morphology has to be above average. We will switch donors but without IVF, I doubt it will make a difference. We will do one more IUI, hopefully they will up my gonal F this time again. This last cycle I had two good size follies, but I think the goal is 3. I'm just so frustrated with this entire process. DW and I have been arguing a lot lately, and I can't help but think I'm not getting pregnant because we are in touch spot right now.
> Hugs to everyone, we will get through this!!


10 months is a ruddy long time particularly when you have great sperm being given a head start up there and the appts, the traveling to and from the appts, the drugs, etc etc etc. i think trying with a new donor will really help you either, conceive :) or if not conceive then at least feel you have taken IUI as far as you. Having that acceptance will make the IVF stuff easier. Of course, i hope that this new sperm and perhaps an extra kick with the drugs will do the job.


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## gingmg

Briss- I was on 112.5u gonal F starting day 3 until day 9. Trigger day 10, IUI day 12. Hope they up it next time.


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## Jazzbird

Gingmg - I think it's really hard to go straight to IUI. Whilst lots of BD can get tiring it can be fun and bring us together. Its also private, free and you don't hang all your hopes on one shot. So I think it's only natural to feel like its bloody hard work and draining. Hang in there. Even if the sperm passes all the tests I think there are other unmeasured qualities of sperm that also affect fertilisation. I think the chemistry between 2 bodily fluids has to be right as well. That's why trying a different donor is a good option. 

Are you making sure you get a date night with your wife? Where you don't talk about ttc? I think it's so important. 

Afm it's my birthday this Sunday and I feel a but sad. Originally I had naively thought I would be nearing the end if my first pregnancy but I haven't managed to conceive at all. 

Lately I've been thinking more and more about adoption. Thinking about how wonderful it might be. I think it's a psychological trick to help me cope with the sadness of not having a biological child. I sit next to a guy at work who is adopted and next to a lady who is in the process of adopting. Weird coincidence? It fills me with hope that I will definitely have a family one way or another. I just want a set of mini shoes by the door with mine and my ohs. 

Hugs ladies. Thinking of you all. Xxx


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## gingmg

Jazzbird- thanks for your words of encouragement. A date night would be a good idea, one that we don't talk about TTC or finances. Birthdays can be hard, but I hope it turns out to be a very happy one for you. Although adoption is a great option for those who want to go down that road, it does not mean that you will not have a biological child. There are still so many options for you (and Blythe you too) to try to have a baby. I know this is hard. This is one of the hardest journeys I have been on. I never expected to be here a year later with no baby. But, like I said before, the timing is working out to be better, but still, I don't have it in me to do this for much longer.
This thread does need some luck. I wish we could just wish ourselves pregnant.


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## Briss

gingmg said:


> Briss- I was on 112.5u gonal F starting day 3 until day 9. Trigger day 10, IUI day 12. Hope they up it next time.

thanks, they are starting me on 125 of Gonal F on CD2 I think


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## gingmg

Briss- I like your new avatar! I think 125 is a good place to start. 

Juniper, BBbliss, Jen- how are you?


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## Briss

gingmg, I love my avatar! I just thought since I am officially a B&B addict I may as well get myself an avatar. I wanted to find a cartoon character that would look like me but then I saw this cutie and smiled, she is so positive that's my motto for my next cycle. 

Here I go again, I got my meds and a letter that hopefully will let me take it with the needles in my hand luggage. Need to make sure none of my colleagues who are travelling with me will see the letter cos it says "fertility treatment". I need to keep it in the fridge which is a bit of a nuasance. had to cover it up at work so people do not see what that is. I'd also need to somehow manage to get out of the corporate dinner tomorrow and stab myself in my tummy. It's a different FSH this time Gonal F (last time it was menopur), they say they want to see whether I react better to this one. They start me on a very low dose as they say 125 (usually they start with 150). I am on short antagonist protocol.


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## Jazzbird

Hello gals. Anyone read taking charge of your fertility? Do you recommend it? I'm sure it doesn't say much more than chart temp, check cervical mucus etc. just wondering if it offers anything new?

X


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## Briss

Jazzbird, I loved this book. it's one of the best I think but then I did not know how to chart so it was very useful in understanding how everything works. It's possible that by now you already picked up most of this stuff anyway. Although I still refer to this book from time to time when I have questions


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## Blythe

Briss. I love your avatar. I have often wondered what you look like :)

Jazzbird agree with briss that this is a fab book. Certainly packs more punch than most of the others. It has pics of different types of cm too!! If I remember rightly she's not a fan of opks but being more in tune with your own body which I have to say I don't think I am anymore. If I went by my cm alone I would've missing ovulation by a good few days (well according to what opks are saying). A great authoritative book though.


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## Jazzbird

I might buy it then to add to my growing collection. Starting to wonder whether my hubby's operation and post op infection has affected his sperm. He has started taking conception vits but he isn't very consistent with taking them. 

I counted them yesterday and realised he keeps missing days. Meanwhile I'm pulling out all the stops - he does annoy me. 

Feeling down today - guess it's my birthday on sun. I just connected with an old friend and found out she's had 4 kids in 8 years. I can't escape this feeling I've missed the boat. All the things that made me scared of having a child a few years ago seem like the forbidden fruit all of a sudden.

Do you guys think commuting long hours every day affects your chances? I'm worried the stress of it is not helping ...

Sorry going crazy today. My mind is all over the place.

X


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## Briss

Jazzbird, I'd be worried about your commute once you get pregnant cos it increases your chances of catching something. I am reading pregnancy books these days and they say your immune system goes down once pregnant so you are more vulnerable.


----------



## Jazzbird

Thanks Briss! I love your positivity ... "When you get pregnant ..."

It seems so impossible to me. I will probably end thus contract in March at the latest. I keep breaking out in eczema over my eyelids.

Today (cd11) I got pink sticky (sorry) cm. confused as I don't usually ovulate til cd16-23


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## BBbliss

Yes! When you get pregnant, and when we get pregnant! I say let's all get pregnant together! :)

Hi girls, I have missed being more involved and communicating with all of you. My birthday is tomorrow, so I hear you jazz, 44 and not pregnant yet... It's ok I'm working on patience now. I'm now taking a more relaxed approach and not temping or opks for the next couple of months, it's been good now it's more of a part time job then a full time one. There are other parts of my personal life that were not getting the proper attention and I feel more balanced for the time being. I was down after that SA and AF right after, but I'm starting to feel more normal now. 

DF has been skipping his supps too and that also got me. I didn't count them but I could tell just by the amount in the container that he wasn't taking them. He said they make him feel full and make him get up to pee in the middle of the night so I said maybe I should NOT get pregnant because it will make me feel really full and make me get up to pee too. Man are such babies!!! 

Girls I think I have just realized why I'm here with you! It's so that YOU don't feel old! :)


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## Jazzbird

He he BBbliss - men ARE babies. Why can't they just take their supplements diligently? It really annoys me, esp as my OH really wants kids. 

Sorry for whining on about my birthday ... Age feels like a big factor for me personally but logically I know plenty of 35+ who conceive easily and plenty of 20+ who struggle for years. 

Hello to all the ladies. Missing Jen, Kat, juniper! Don't leave this thread ladies. :-(


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## gingmg

Going for labwork to be officially told I'm not pregnant. AF really is a witch, right on time despite the progesterone. Geez, just ruthless and determined no matter what to show up. Oh well. Im ok, I think. I was prepared for this the other day, but was secretly holding onto hope. No such luck. I guess on the bright side, we get to look through profiles again and pick someone new, which is weird and exciting. Have a good day everyone!


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## Blythe

Gingmg :hugs: for AF. She is a ruthless determined old hag.....you are right. Gl with the profile hunt.....this is exciting. Do they provide details of the sperm profile. If so what kind of count/morph do they have? I guess they probably focus on the men themselves though!!

Last night I spoke with DH and said I was considering donor sperm and he said "what!!!!!!!!". I explained that with his 5% morphology it might be why we are not getting pregnant (nothing to do with my old eggs). I said I know you enjoy your booze and that this way he can continue drinking and I get what I want. Anyhow we went to sleep after the conversation and he awoke this morning saying he had been thinking about it and was prepared to stop all drinking in the new year for 4 weeks and cut down a lot the month after. It's something! He has also given me £50 to cover his supplements :) 

I am going to join a site for those dealing with infertility and moving onto adoption as it's something I want to find out more about to see if it's something I could go with.


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## Juniperjules

Hi ladies, just wanted to pop in and say hello ; ) 

Jazz bird, I know how u feel about the birthday. I'm 39 on December 7th. Gonna be a bloody miserable day- I'm sure of it! But I keep reminding myself that my auntie was dying at 39, which sounds very morbid i know- but it literally does honestly remind me to keep my misery in check. That she had misery that she could not change or escape from, and she would have given anything to be fit and well at 39. So I'm trying to focus on life being a real gift, that it is wot you can make of it. 

Blythe, Briss, Gingmg, Bbliss, Jen...hi girls : ) 

My update is that there really nothing good to say right now. OH & I haven't spoken since Thursday nite when I called him from work and we had a fight. He said i am being pushy and trying to get answers from him when he has already told me he wants time to think/figure stuff out. Prior to that I saw him on Monday (I turned up unannounced to get some clothes), and hadn't spoken to him for a week before that.

.. I guess the problem is that after all these years together its really really difficult for me to just pretend he doesn't exist for a month or even a few weeks. And I'm starting to get angry, bcos I don't see how a month or even 2 months will tell him anything at all. I feel like if he isn't sure wot he is doing he should make a real decision and tell me he wants to completely split and be on his own for an indeterminate time. Bcos right now I feel like I'm in limbo. Waiting to see what will happen next. I'm managing to cope ok so far, keeping busy with work. And I have 3 girlfriends at work who know what's going on and they are being great, organising to do things.. Tomoro were going to a Spanish festival... But I think I'm doing ok bcos I'm just trying to push all thoughts of the future out of my head. I can't even contemplate the future. Bcos I have no idea idea if ill b with him or alone. 

honestly right now I CANNOT even look at a baby or a child. I walked into the coffee shop at work yesterday and there were 3 women with brand new baby's in cribs that they had wheeled round to the cafe... I felt like I was the most evil person bcos I hated those women without even knowing them... I was looking at them smiling and thinking 'look how smug they are! stupid idiots'... OMG.. And I LITERALLY couldn't even bring myself to look at the babies... It was almost a physical reaction. Like i might just self combust from jealousy & pain if i looked at those babies & thought for a second about how i will never ever have that. 

I'm feeling like things with my OH could really be over I guess. Yes we love each other but I think this has been brewing for over a year now- he loves me, and is struggling with the idea of ending things and losing me...but also I think feels like he wants to be single and on his own. Well, infact he said those words to me... 'i need to decide if i want to be single or in a relationship'. I think maybe all the baby stuff and coming so close to IVF has been the straw that broke the camels back- has forced him into a corner where he's realised there would be no walking away if a baby was involved. 

So now I'm looking down the barrel of very likely being 39, and single for the first time since I was 21. And with very little chance of ever having children. I could go down the sperm donor route...but I know I won't. Im too emotional a person, i want a child with someone i love, not a stranger. and financially it would be impossible unless I made a decision to live with my parents for the next 5 or more years! And unless an absolutely miracle happened, the chance of me meeting someone new, and being in any legitimate position to be ttc in the next year or two is zero. I cannot believe this is how my life has turned out. I wish this had happened 5. Yrs ago, perhaps it wouldn't have felt so bleak.

Sorry my update is long and depressing.


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## Blythe

Oh Juniper Jules my heart is breaking for you. i hate that you are in limbo and waiting, just waiting for some else to make their mind up about their needs and that possibly dictating the next few years of your life. Of course he does not want to lose you [you are amazing!] but it seems he cannot make up his mind what he wants to do with you. when things were good between you were you happy with him? Did he meet your needs?

Is coming to the UK a possibility? i know what you mean about the age thing.it brings a new dimension to an already horrible situation. But your stats are fantastic and i would say based on them you do have a few years of fertility left. To be honest the age thing might help you to make a painful decision about all of this based on what is best for YOU and your needs.

sorry to keep mentioning your needs but i don't like how the man you love is keeping you hanging when he must know the pain this is causing you.

Breaks/ups were somehow more palatable when younger as you have the distraction of friends, pubs, booze etc but when you are older this is not the case. I know from your posts before that, like me, you have closed down a bit over the years and don't spend so much time with your friends. When things like this happen it can make us feel isolated. Its great you have some support from work

Its almost impossible to view your situation without emotion but you may need to step back and ask yourself where you see yourself in 5 years and start taking steps to make that happen regardless of what your DH wants/feels. 

I hope very much he comes to his senses. I'm so sorry you are going through such an awful time :hugs:


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## Juniperjules

Blythe, u actually hit the nail on the head when u mentioned trying to look at things in a less emotional way. Bcos that's exactly wot I am trying to do. I have moments where I feel like I'm in a crazy dream & everything's spinning out of control.. But I try & catch myself quick enough to stop it from really taking hold. As u girls know, I work in a mental health ward- I've seen how this stuff can affect people, ruin lives, send people over the edge. If this is it for me & OH, I'm never gonna allow myself to lose it so much that I lose my chance for future happiness. I'm reminding myself that sadly even long relationships & marriages DO end. It's crap, it's painful, it's scary.. Petrifying really. But u can get thru it. And u CANNOT allow yourself to wallow... Bcos that's wot leads to real problems. 

So for now I'm taking it day to day. I AM still considering a move to London if things are really over. My sister is coming back to Melbourne start of feb for 2 weeks.. So I'm loosely thinking that if by January I know it's over, then maybe ill go back to London with her (well she's actually in Kent). Apart from the fact that this forum is anonymous, if any of u girls in London fancy making a new friend, I might b on the lookout for some mates in a new city next year! ; )

But seriously, I might b managing to get thru ok right now, but I don't think staying here will b a good idea if its over- I know ill struggle. I actually applied for Australian citizenship last week, & had my interview & test on Wednesday too (passed the test- phew!). We've been here 30 yrs but never bothered. But I figured last week that I should just do it, that way if I do leave, in the future I will always b able to come & go easy enough if I want to. It felt like a positive step anyway, & u can have dual British & Aussie citizenship so why not. 

Thanks so much for ur reply, apart from mum I'm not really talking about any of this to anyone- I'm keeping it kind of superficial with my work girlfriends, mostly bcos I don't think I can coke with any heavy conversations about it all. It's too much right now. So ur reply means a lot x


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## gingmg

Juniper- Fist off, (((((BIG HUGS))))))!!!:hugs: I am so sorry you are hurting right now. I can't imagine how difficult this is, but from the little that I know about you, I can tell you are an amazingly strong, intelligent woman who is going to be able to get through whatever it is that you need to get through, however this turns out. It may not be easy, it may be a battle, but I have faith that you can do this. 

I know it must feel so crappy that this is happening now and I know this isn't how you imagined anything. I agree with Blythe, he is leaving you in limbo right now, and should he decide that he wants to work things out, will you trust him that it's not going to happen again next month? When you really sit down and think of it without all the emotion and fears, what is it that YOU really want? Is it HIM or is it not to be alone? It does sound like you both love each other very much, but I know sometimes that love isn't enough. It should be, but it isn't always. 

You don't need to think about this right now, but I don't believe for one second that it's either him or nobody. It of coarse takes time to heal, but I do believe should it not work out with him, you will meet someone else in the future. And looking at your AMH, you probably have many many years of fertility, so I doubt it's now or never. First things first, you need to figure out what it is that YOU really want and need, and everything else will follow. I'm glad you have a few friends at work that are keeping you busy. That's so important. For right now, you need to do anything that makes you feel good. Be it a yoga class, going for a walk, having some wine, a night out with the girls, watching a funny movie, ect. Be gentle on yourself right now. Somehow, this is all going to be okay whether you two end up working it out, or moving on. You WILL be okay again, and you WILL laugh again, and you WILL love again, and you WILL have that baby if you want. It is a process and YOU CAN DO THIS!!!
Please keep us updated, and check in to vent, talk, get support, anything, anytime.:hugs:


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## Briss

Blythe, great move re donor sperm, I so wish it worked for my DH too.

Juniper, being in limbo is dreadful, I really feel for you. Somehow I'm quite sure that your DH will come back to you. men go through some changes in their 40s, maybe your DH is also having some mid life crisis type of thing? I really hope he will come back to his senses and soon.

afm, CD 3, second day of stims, here I go again...


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## gingmg

Blythe- no they dont tell you SA, would be nice though. They just say they have to be above average ( so after the freezing and thawing they become average, but they fail to mention this detail). Good job getting your hubby to get on track!

I've been looking all kinds of things up today and I have myself in a panic over everything fertility related. I need to stay off line and I can't manage to do it.


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## Jazzbird

Hello ladies. Just back from my birthday break with OH. No Internet so missed all the chat on here. It was nice to be unplugged for a few days. 

First off, juniper - it goes without saying that I am so very sorry for this painful time you are going through. It really really sucks and I know all of us would be going through the same emotions you are battling through. It's so hard to know what to say. But what I will say is that you are 39. You have time left to meet someone new. I know we do worry about age but lots of women do have children into their forties. 

But your OH is leaving you hanging in the balance. I think this is very inconsiderate and even if you did get back together could you trust him again? Will he turn around in a years time and say he's not sure again?

I think it would be a good idea to take some control back. I'm not sure how - perhaps booking an extended break away and asking him not to contact you .. A trial separation on your terms ... Maybe even going on a few dates to give yourself the feeling that you do have other options: this is not the end of the road. 

Blythe - I like the reverse psychology re sperm donor. Hoping he sticks to it. 

Gingmg - sorry about AF but excited about your new donor.

AFM - OH and I talked about our situ - he admitted he is really struggling with the thought of not having kids. He's pretty devastated - it's hard when you both admit it and the grief just hangs in the air unresolved. We stupidly rented a terrible movie called friends with kids, where a couple of friends in their late 30s decide to try for a baby. One night of hanky panky and she's preggas. We laughed at how ridiculous it is. 

I'm a fertile myrtle today so going to do another bd tonight. We did yesterday but it was the first time in a long time so don't think his swimmers were that healthy.

Hugs to everyone. Xxx

Ps juniper I will be your friend if you move to London!


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## Blythe

I watched that film. What a load if rubbish......I live all the actors in it and think they are very funny but it was just dire. 

Happy birthday love :) may this next year being you everything your heart desires.


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## jen379

Hi Juniper! BIG ((((hugs)))) to you. I am so sorry for what you are going through. I wish I could make it go a way for you. You truly deserve all that life's happiness can give you and I hope you take some time to figure out exactly what you want and then go all out and go for it. Like some of the ladies already said, I hope you can do some things to take some control over what is going on so that you are not at the mercy of others decisions. 

I wholeheartedly believe that you do have time left to have the family you want. Your situation is sad but not hopeless and certainly not desperate. Anything can happen if you are open to it. 

Feel free to talk about whatever you want to get through this. I'm here and I know the other ladies are here for you too.


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## Briss

Jazzbird, happy birthday! happy BD, I hope this is your lucky month! 

afm, just had my first scan on CD 5 and so far so good; 8 follicles on the left, all different sizes; only 2 on the right. follicles on the right are not collectable as the needle will have to go through the cyst and puncturing the cyst have a risk of infection; lining looks very good it's still menstrual but the triple layer is coming through; good blood flow. waiting for my blood results but for the time being I am staying on 125 Gonal F. EC is likely to be Sunday/Monday CD11/12. seems a bit early?

My poor DH had to pay the full amount today and he was slightly shocked so I had to take him for a cup of coffee so he could recover. tbh, I'd much rather part with the money then have to go through stims! we had a bit of a chat about what wonderful things this cycle could bring about finally and I think his mood gradually improved. He decided to cancel drinks tomorrow cos he felt foolish for drinking and damaging our chances while paying so much money for it. finally he is showing some sense!! 

we paid for the embryoscope (in case we will have more than 2 embryos). I hope it's worth it. they said it's most likely to be 3 day transfer cos by day 3 they can see through the embryoscope all they need to know about the embryo's chances and they believe my uterus is the best place for it so the sooner it can get in there the better.


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## Jazzbird

Briss - so happy your OH is paying and this finally knocked some sense into him! Money well spent I say 

Hoping this is the magic cycle for you and so pleased you are moving forwards!

I just checked an online fertility calculator. Got ewcm cd 13 & 14, lh surge cd 14. Bd cd13 & cd14 but fertility calc says I should bd again tonight and tmrw. Starting to wonder if I've timed it all wrong. I never bd that late but guess I could ovulate 2 days later in which case I could be bd too early. 

So confusing!


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## Briss

Jazzbird, if you got your lh surge on cd 14 you can ovulate any time between cd14-16 so if you can I'd BD on Cd 15 or/and 16


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## Jazzbird

Who knew BD would be such a chore!!!


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## Briss

Jazzbird, that's what my Dh is thinking. I told him we need to BD every day now to "clear" his old sperm before EC. he was literally horrified. I, on the other hand, is so up for it. my horn is just too much this cycle (maybe it's the meds), it's only CD5 and I literally cant think of anything else all day long &#8230; quite embarrassing (but very good for blood flow&#8230; I keep telling myself :) )


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## Jazzbird

But I thought it was bad to BD every day if there are sperm issues?


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## Briss

it's good to BD often outside the fertile window. my plan was to BD every day now and then stop 2-3 days before EC. because we are doing ICSI I am not concerned about his quantity as we only need a few and will have hopefully at least a million but I am really concerned about the quality. anyway, he is not up for anything so it's all talk we have not yet BD once this cycle&#8230;


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## Jazzbird

I think that's our problem. Since his operation he doesn't want to BD. So we end up just doing it in the fertile window. I think it's good to do it at least once a week. That's what we used to do before this ridiculous operation. Seriously I can't believe it could be affecting our chances of having a child!


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## Briss

I had my second scan today on Cd 7 (6th day of stims) and it's bad news I am afraid. my ovaries are not responding to stimulation, only 2 follicles have grown since last scan. They are considering two options (i) cancelling the cycle or (ii) increasing Gonal F from 125 to 300. I am really not sure what to make of it. I hated the idea of stimulation to begin with and was happy to do another natural cycle with just one egg so to me going through hated stimulation and cancelling the cycle after I have already consumed so much meds is just unthinkable. On the other hand increasing FSH almost 3 times is worrying as my two leading follicles may grow really fast (the largest is already 16mm) not giving the eggs a chance to mature properly. There is no guarantee that my other follicles will respond to higher dose so I may still end up with just 2 follicles but much sooner. Was told to start cetrotide today to supress LH (am still waiting for my bloods). my lining is perfect: 9.8 mm /triple layer but what's the point&#8230; I am trying not to get emotional here and just take what comes


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## Blythe

Briss. I'm sorry about this scan.....I wonder what they would expect to see at this stage....did they tell you? 

When is the next scan? It is all such a roller coaster....you must just nod and say yes and give yourself over completely to what these experts are suggesting as the best way forward and know that each day you are one step closer to achieving pregnancy. 

I'm just waiting for AF and trying to think positively about it happening at some point soon. Trying very hard not to think about the last 3 years and focus on possibilities and hope :)


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## BBbliss

Briss, this has got to be so frustrating, but trust that they have the experience and know what they are doing. Fx for you!

Blythe. Don't look back! Pretend you have just started out! Remember how it felt in the beginning? That's what being positive feels like. You need that!

Afm, I'm still about 3d from O, not that I have a chance, but my breasts have been sore for days already. They don't usually feel sore till Or after O. 

Want to say hi to all the girls here, jazz, ging, Jen and juniper I hope all is well with you.


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## Jazzbird

So sorry Briss. This just sounds so stressful. At least you are trying all options. You will know if you go back to natural that that is the best option for you. 

Hugs to you. X


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## Briss

Jazzbird, thanks! I feel so exhausted from all the research I've done on various natural ways to increase fertility. I do not have it in me anymore to become an expert in IVF protocols. I know I should but part of me really wants to trust the clinic and just let it go cos I am tired of trying to control everything. 

BBbliss, thanks, hopefully you can get a few BD sessions in just in time for O. 

Blythe, I am very sorry you feel AF is coming, I so hope for a miracle for you!! I am trying not to look back but sometimes it just stares you in the face, a colleague who just had a baby and who started TTC like 2.5 years after me invited me over to see the baby while my second IVF is falling apart. where would I get the strength? My friends' children being born and growing up does remind me of how long it's been. 

At Create they wanted to see most of my 10 follicles grow since the last scan. their sizes are OK but it's the fact that they stopped growing where the issue is I think. DH and I were actually thinking of going rogue and stimming on our own if they suggest cancelling, total madness but it's cos we are just so desperate for it to work. 

I just got a call from the clinic my estradinol is 1,516 and LH 6.3, they want me to go up to 250 of Gonal F and start cetrotide to suppress LH for the next two days. I am going for it so fingers crossed it will result in more mature eggs and a healthy pregnancy. I am stopping with google cos according to dr google I should not be even allowed to do IVF with my stats and am doomed&#8230; 

I had the strangest AF this cycle, it was short only 5 days and stopped with no tail end spotting and today on CD7 I had literally tonnes of EWCM. these meds are playing with my hormones big time. I wont bore you with the details of what these meds do to my sex drive but it's insane!


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## gingmg

Briss- I think the hardest part of going for fertility treatments is letting go and letting them drive the bus. We are so used to controlling everything, and it's so hard to trust that they know what they are doing. When using the meds, it is a little bit of a crap shot at the beginning, because they don't know how your body is going to respond. It takes a bit of time to figure out exactly what dose is the best for you. Two is better than one though, right?? I get TONS of EWCM on injectables too! And my sex drive, that is a post for a different day...

Have to sit this cycle out due to two cysts from the meds. Oh well...


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## Blythe

it is my intention to think of the future but its hardi have been low this week and just in tears most days. Its the bloody pre AF hormonal shiftsi always feel so darn retched.

Have just taken delivery of new sups so gearing up for next cycle.a new beginning and all that :wacko:

Briss - it would be so amazing if this were your cycle..how exciting although i know you have this set back.your updates are always so detailedi feel like i am doing it with you. i wish all good things for youyou deserve it :flower:


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## Briss

gingmg, you are so right it's really hard to trust them particularly when they clearly do not know what they are doing and it looks like there is no way of knowing because every women (even with the same stats) seems to react differently to the same protocol and sometimes you can even get different reaction from the same woman depending on the cycle so it's just a question of trying and seeing what works. not very comforting. I am so glad you mentioned sex drive, good to know I am not the only one going cuckoo on these meds. 

I am eating lots of protein and veggies, increased my coq10 to 600 + vits, everything for my little eggies to grow. two is definitely better than one and when he was counting my follicles I was so positive cos they seemed quite large (well some of them) until he said things are really bad nothing is growing, was a bit of a shock. I mean to me even two follicles is great I was hoping for more but I did not count on that but the doc made it sound like a complete failure so I started panicking that they may cancel the cycle. 

I am sorry about two cysts, how disappointing. I hope they will disappear soon so you could finally get pregnant.


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## Blythe

gingmg said:


> Briss- I think the hardest part of going for fertility treatments is letting go and letting them drive the bus. We are so used to controlling everything, and it's so hard to trust that they know what they are doing. When using the meds, it is a little bit of a crap shot at the beginning, because they don't know how your body is going to respond. It takes a bit of time to figure out exactly what dose is the best for you. Two is better than one though, right?? I get TONS of EWCM on injectables too! And my sex drive, that is a post for a different day...
> 
> Have to sit this cycle out due to two cysts from the meds. Oh well...

I hope this mini break will allow you to at least have a mental break from the trials of TTC and a break from the meds will be good too. You can come back fighting fit for an Xmas bfp :)


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## Briss

Blythe, this is the toughest part a few days before AF, the worst! I feel for you. what supps are you doing next? I got my DH fertilaid + count + motility managed to get him to take it but it takes an argument every time. 

I do not think I can take any more fresh wheatgrass, it's just revolting tbh. it's disgusting to drink but it also stays with me for hours after that. I will be drinking beetroot today and will make a nice grapefruit/strawberry/banana/yogurt smoothie. 

I am sharing the info on IVF in part cos I just hope you can get a feel for what IVF is in case you decide to go this route (but mainly because I really need lots of support to get through this constant nightmare). I know you decided against it but who knows things may change. 

One thing that helps me cope with the set back is planning the next IVf, does not sound optimistic but knowing that this is not the end really helps me going with less stress. I am doing all I can for this cycle to work so I just need a mechanism to cope with the stress and looking to the future helps a bit. My stimulation fiasco really made me think that my FS was right (yet again!) and that high FSH does make it difficult so I am looking into protocols designed specifically for these situations. I think my current one is one way to do it but there are other ways apparently. Also one thing that is crucial if we are to go for a proper IVF is the clinic that has a long standing tradition of treating high FSH ladies. This is the key to success I am quite sure now


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## Blythe

BBbliss said:


> Briss, this has got to be so frustrating, but trust that they have the experience and know what they are doing. Fx for you!
> 
> Blythe. Don't look back! Pretend you have just started out! Remember how it felt in the beginning? That's what being positive feels like. You need that!
> 
> Afm, I'm still about 3d from O, not that I have a chance, but my breasts have been sore for days already. They don't usually feel sore till Or after O.
> 
> Want to say hi to all the girls here, jazz, ging, Jen and juniper I hope all is well with you.

I have read so many amazing stories since TTC that anything is possible so please don't count yourself out. 

I am having my usual monthly struggle but know it will by over by sat. I must then reset my way of thinking and try to get excited about a baby again. It could happen at any time I guess.


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## Jazzbird

Sorry Blythe you are feeling so low. I can't even imagine being stuck in this position in a few more years. I think by that time I will have well and truly given up. OH and I have been talking a lot - we both feel really down and our dreams of parenting slipping away from us. I'm really beginning to detest the family visits with nieces and nephews. I'm jealous and find everything about other peoples children tedious. I can't imagine how hard Xmas is going to be this year. I'm staying at in laws with their grandchildren. 

How did I turn into this horrible person?

We are just so lost right now. I can't see the point of lugging myself up to London to pay for a big house that we have no real need for.

Grrrrr. Sorry girls - must be the weather. 

Thinking of you all on this crappy rollercoaster.


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## Jazzbird

Sorry Blythe you are feeling so low. I can't even imagine being stuck in this position in a few more years. I think by that time I will have well and truly given up. OH and I have been talking a lot - we both feel really down and our dreams of parenting slipping away from us. I'm really beginning to detest the family visits with nieces and nephews. I'm jealous and find everything about other peoples children tedious. I can't imagine how hard Xmas is going to be this year. I'm staying at in laws with their grandchildren. 

How did I turn into this horrible person?

We are just so lost right now. I can't see the point of lugging myself up to London to pay for a big house that we have no real need for.

Grrrrr. Sorry girls - must be the weather. 

Thinking of you all on this crappy rollercoaster.


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## gingmg

Blythe- sorry you are feeling like AF is coming. I know its such a crummy feeling. Pamper yourself a little, cry if you want to, and have a glass of wine. I'm sorry I know this feels miserable.
Jazzbird- you are not a horrible person for feeling jealous of other people's kids or not wanting to be around them. I feel that way too.

Big huggs to everyone!!!


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## Blythe

Others people children are tedious. Your not horrible. You are lovely :) giving up is just not possible despite the time. If I had thought when we started this 3 years ago that I would still be doing this I may have thought then I would give up but I can't. I wish I could sometimes. It's like entering a tunnel and not seeing the exit but being to far in to turn around. It's dark and shitty but I just keep hoping I will see that light and something wonderful will happen.


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## Jazzbird

Thanks gals. 

I'm sorry Blythe - reading my post back sounds so insensitive but I completely understand the tunnel analogy. I'm sure as the months tick by I will find I'll feel the same. 

I'm just annoyed at myself for being so terrified of having kids. I spent most of my 30s in total fear of it ... and now look at me. I partly blame my sister who was always scare mongering - knowing I scare easily. She has always been brutally honest about pregnancy, childbirth and child rearing. And sometimes there are things you just shouldn't say.


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## Bunnyslug

Hi guys! 
I'm 36- just had my first acupuncture treatment today. Ttc for 7 cycles. My friend dragged me and had done acupuncture for last two months and got her BFP last Monday. We started together. She's on #2 and convinced it helped. She's giving me her leftover herbs tomorrow. 
Worth a shot and I really do feel relaxed! 
Good luck!


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## gingmg

Hi bunnyslug, glad you enjoyed your accupunture. I haven't gone in awhile, but am going to get back into it. I definitely noticed a difference in my cycles. I like your name bunnyslug!


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## Briss

Bunnyslug, welcome! I'd definitely check with your practitioner before taking your friend's herbs, you may have very different deficiencies/excesses and her herbs may not necessarily work well for you. herbal mix should be prepared individually as they can be quite powerful. 

Jazzbird, i know what you mean I was 7 when my brother was born and remember all details of his early years including various illnesses, emergencies, him being terribly annoying and needing attention constantly crying and being in trouble etc etc basically I did not want to have children cos most of my life I felt like I already had one and cant possibly take any more of this. the trouble is of course that I only saw the difficult part of bringing up a child but without that wonderful feeling (am talking theoretically here as do not have the actual experience) that one may have knowing its your baby


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## tryfor2

Jazzbird said:


> Thanks gals.
> 
> I'm sorry Blythe - reading my post back sounds so insensitive but I completely understand the tunnel analogy. I'm sure as the months tick by I will find I'll feel the same.
> 
> I'm just annoyed at myself for being so terrified of having kids. I spent most of my 30s in total fear of it ... and now look at me. I partly blame my sister who was always scare mongering - knowing I scare easily. She has always been brutally honest about pregnancy, childbirth and child rearing. And sometimes there are things you just shouldn't say.

Sorry to jump in here, but I just have to say that I was the exact same. The thought of being a mother scared the ___ out of me. It is definitely why I put it off. To be honest, I actually didn't feel ready to be pregnant when I conceived (though it was planned) and spent a lot of my pregnancy bitter and resentful of my unborn child. Makes me sounds awful, but it's the truth (I was also horribly depressed, so there's that). And despite having a less than happy pregnancy, I would have been willing to extend it another couple of YEARS in order to put off motherhood that much longer. I was that afraid of it. Thought I'd hate it, feel trapped etc. It was a very difficult adjustment (nothing/no one can prepare you), but I love being a mum. It's going far, far better than I imagined (keep in mind I envisioned hours of crying in the fetal position--me, not the baby). Shocked the heck out of me. Like any Major Life Change, you can never know what you will feel or how you will react until you're in it.

I agree--there is A LOT you don't need to know till you're pregnant or even 9 cm dilated. However, I was pretty annoyed that no one had ever warned me about say, monster hemmorhoids (or whatever). Though I had been pretty clueless at the beginning and thought I wouldn't have any symptoms other than nausea and fatigue until my third trimester! :rofl: But now, on the other side, I understand why nobody warned me. 1. Birth rates would plummet if people realized just how tough (read: bloody painful) it is, and 2. You wouldn't believe it even if they were to tell you. "It won't happen to me," you think. And then it does. Now, if expectant mothers ask me specific questions and truly do want to know, I'll tell them. Otherwise, my only advice is "get the drugs."

Other people's kids ARE annoying. Hell, my own 'perfect angel' can be obnoxious. They're children. Comes with the territory. You're only saying what other people are thinking. It's not like you went up to some baby's mother and said "I want to punch your child in the face"! 

I completely understand where you are coming from regarding seeing babies/new mothers. The desire for a child, to be pregnant is a powerful, physiological thing. Even if you already have a child (especially if you already have a child, because then you know how wonderful it is). Ever since starting TTC #2 I practically look at pregnant women with narrowed eyes. I'm not quite thinking "b_tch" but almost. My neighbour is happily pg right now--and after a loss too--and I was genuinely glad for her. But then she smugly hung one of those "Baby on Board" signs in her living room window and suddenly I hate her. Don't know why. But seeing that sign just flicked some kind of switch in me. (Of course, I'm perfectly lovely when I run into her.)

OK, now that you think I'm a lunatic, I'll sign off. Sorry for hijacking your thread, I just thought you might like to know that I totally get it.


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## Jazzbird

Hi bunnyslug! Fab name  I'm an acupuncturist and agree with Briss - you shouldn't share herbs with other patients. This is not just because you could have a different diagnosis but the herbs could actually counteract your treatment or make a condition worse. If you are diagnosed with yin deficiency for example, taking yang strengthening herbs can exacerbate heat problems and actually weaken your yin even further.

Hi tryfor2! Thanks for your lovely personal post. I so understand where you are coming from on all fronts. It is tricky to figure our what you should/should not know. I've heard nothing but labour hell stories from everyone who has gone through it. But I'm guessing I still have no idea just how bad it can be. 

I think my problem with my sister is that I feel on some level she had done it to consciously freak me out to the point where I can only see negatives. My OH feels she has totally ruined my perception and feels a lot of anger towards her. To be honest since she had kids we have totally drifted apart. She thinks I'm selfish and self absorbed and I feel she has disappeared into the mum brigade. You know , the kind who feel the world owes them something for having their kids. She can't see a world beyond her children. 

Perhaps I'm being harsh but when we were not trying for kids she was always moaning about how hard her life is, now we're trying she keeps telling me how blessed she is. 

Anywho, rant over  but thanks for your insights it helps to know I'm not alone. And I HATE those baby on board signs. Especially in cars? Is no one over the age of 2 worth considering in a car crash. Someone at work had a "no one of any importance on board sign" in their car. I don't know about USA or Canada but UK has gone all child centric and it's damaging our kids I tell you!

Rant definitely over!


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## gingmg

I love how people actually talk in this thread instead of the one liners like most other threads. It makes me feel human because I have more to say about TTC than what day of my cycle I am on (although when getting scans and doing shots, it does help to understand the process better when multiple people are posting their journey, but that's not the point!)
Tryfor2- thanks for your post!


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## Briss

It looks like the stimulated cycle just does not work for me. there is very little progress on the scan this morning. CD 9 and 8th day of stims, two dominant follicles are still there 14/16 mm there is a third one at 9mm which may catch up so they want to keep me on stims for 2 more days but depends on my bloods today. Follicles on the right did not grow but that's OK cos they cant access the right ovary because of the cyst anyway. Generally the doc said if I need any more IVF in the future she would not recommend doing any more stimulated cycles cos I had 2 follicles on my natural/modified cycle as well so same result with much less meds. oh well, I sort of knew that with my high FSH I am not a great IVF candidate hence the reason the NHS is refusing the funding. 

The good news is that my blood flow to the ovaries, follicles and uterus is very good and she said it's a positive sign and there is hope that the egg quality is good so at least there is that. the lining is perfect 11 mm triple layer. They will most likely still proceed on the basis of two follicles but will do 2 day ET. I am thinking whether we still need to pay 600 for the embryo scope cos it's not going to make a difference in choosing the embryo as there is no choice but it may give us some more info on how the embryos are developing which may explain the chemical last cycle but then again with day 2 ET there wont be that much time and into its just going to be 4 cell embryos. 

The strangest thing is my ovaries feel so full and heavy as if they are giant and filled with hundreds of follicles, I am also bloated and had a fair amount of bleeding after the injection last night, tummy is still hurting. 

DH wont stop complaining about all the BD I am making him to go through. I am trying to stick to at least every other day to keep his sperm moving but I have to say that last night there was virtually nothing there. I wonder if he really needs some rest before EC (which now looks like Tuesday).


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## Blythe

Jazzbird said:


> Hi bunnyslug! Fab name  I'm an acupuncturist and agree with Briss - you shouldn't share herbs with other patients. This is not just because you could have a different diagnosis but the herbs could actually counteract your treatment or make a condition worse. If you are diagnosed with yin deficiency for example, taking yang strengthening herbs can exacerbate heat problems and actually weaken your yin even further.
> 
> Hi tryfor2! Thanks for your lovely personal post. I so understand where you are coming from on all fronts. It is tricky to figure our what you should/should not know. I've heard nothing but labour hell stories from everyone who has gone through it. But I'm guessing I still have no idea just how bad it can be.
> 
> I think my problem with my sister is that I feel on some level she had done it to consciously freak me out to the point where I can only see negatives. My OH feels she has totally ruined my perception and feels a lot of anger towards her. To be honest since she had kids we have totally drifted apart. She thinks I'm selfish and self absorbed and I feel she has disappeared into the mum brigade. You know , the kind who feel the world owes them something for having their kids. She can't see a world beyond her children.
> 
> Perhaps I'm being harsh but when we were not trying for kids she was always moaning about how hard her life is, now we're trying she keeps telling me how blessed she is.
> 
> Anywho, rant over  but thanks for your insights it helps to know I'm not alone. And I HATE those baby on board signs. Especially in cars? Is no one over the age of 2 worth considering in a car crash. Someone at work had a "no one of any importance on board sign" in their car. I don't know about USA or Canada but UK has gone all child centric and it's damaging our kids I tell you!
> 
> Rant definitely over!

HATE cute signs..."little person on board" etc I particularly detest women wearing badges on the underground saying baby on board. If you need to sit down ask.


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## Blythe

Briss good to hear you have a couple of good follies there. Sorry that the stims did not work for you but you have tried it one and know it's something you can cross off. 

We only ever bd around ovulation time so I wonder if that has effected DHs sperm. He went to a Chinese doc last week as his back went and spent 120 quid on herbs and Acu but is refusing to continue as the cost is so ridiculous. He is starting on normal supps again and I'm adding coq10 for him this cycle. He has taken it before so I don't expect miracles. 

I think one more bd before Tuesday will be ok My DH moans after 2 bd's that there is nothing left!!


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## tryfor2

HATE cute signs..."little person on board" etc I particularly detest women wearing badges on the underground saying baby on board. If you need to sit down ask.[/QUOTE]

Okay, that's just obnoxious. The world doesn't revolve around you just bc you're "with child." And Jazzbird, you're right--we are becoming entirely too child centric. We're raising a bunch of little narcissists! I don't envy teachers these days!


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## Briss

My bloods are back and it looks promising, estrogen went up to 2,678 but LH dropped back to 3.9 (I did not know it could go down I thought it only goes up until the surge but apparently not) which is great (also means that cetrotide is working) cos hopefully I wont be having my surge just yet and we have a couple of days of stims to see if the third follicle will catch up. Would be nice to have a choice and maybe even to have a spare one to freeze. 

I am in two minds if I should go cycling tomorrow cos I can feel my ovaries even when I walk. I find IVF quite intense but I guess it's because my stats are against me and things are just very shaky and uncertain on every step of the way. The next 7-8 days are going to be very tough. luckily it's very quiet at work. partly it's my fault I think I made a point of being too stretched and then "dared" to say no to a partner when offered more work so now no one puts me on any deals (I have none!). Deep down I know it's never a good sign to have capacity at work but somehow I do not really care.

I do not have a strong opinion on the cute signs, my sight is so poor that cant see them anyway :) (thank goodness!).


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## Blythe

tryfor2 said:


> HATE cute signs..."little person on board" etc I particularly detest women wearing badges on the underground saying baby on board. If you need to sit down ask.

Okay, that's just obnoxious. The world doesn't revolve around you just bc you're "with child." And Jazzbird, you're right--we are becoming entirely too child centric. We're raising a bunch of little narcissists! I don't envy teachers these days![/QUOTE]

I agree my comment was a little dark.some of my comments are and you would know that if you were familiar with this board. i did actually mean to say i detest the badges rather than the women.


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## tryfor2

Blythe said:


> tryfor2 said:
> 
> 
> HATE cute signs..."little person on board" etc I particularly detest women wearing badges on the underground saying baby on board. If you need to sit down ask.
> 
> Okay, that's just obnoxious. The world doesn't revolve around you just bc you're "with child." And Jazzbird, you're right--we are becoming entirely too child centric. We're raising a bunch of little narcissists! I don't envy teachers these days!Click to expand...

I agree my comment was a little dark.some of my comments are and you would know that if you were familiar with this board. i did actually mean to say i detest the badges rather than the women.[/QUOTE]

Oh nonononono!!! You totally misunderstood! I DID mean the women (my words were directed at them, not you)! Well, not the women themselves but the fact that they advertise that they are pregnant so people will give up their seats for them on the underground (never ever heard of or seen that--no subway here). Gosh, no, be dark all you wish (I am too, believe me--see my first comment on here--my great talent in life is my ability to see the negative in things). I would never judge someone on a message board where they come to vent/commiserate/unload. I am so sorry that you thought I was calling you obnoxious--ABSOLUTELY NOT. God, you must think _I_ am obnoxious now!! I apologize for not being clear and for intruding on your well established thread. Mea culpa!


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## Blythe

I'm far too sensitive these dayssorry for the misunderstanding. :flower:

i see you might have a BFP on your hands from the other thread. Hope the line continues to get darker :flower:


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## BBbliss

I hope everyone is having a beautiful weekend :)

Briss, it's still looking good! If anything you have double the chance this cycle! Good luck!

Afm, so much for not temping/opk, well I had too! Lol just to confirm my symptoms, so I Oed three days early this cycle and my breasts have been really sore from a wk before O, I was confused so after the +opk I went back to temping just to keep an eye on hormones. We BDed 3 times last wk, our chances are close to impossible but I still have hope


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## Briss

managed to squeeze one more BD out of DH today! although had to promise no more sex this year... :( i hope he said that so I wont put any more pressure on him cos I really cant survive that long. 

BBbliss, thank you I really hope this time it works. My next scan is tomorrow and I do not know what to expect. I have to say that stims are physically hard, I am not feeling that great at all.

went to see Philomena today and cried through the whole movie, it's just really really sad. great movie though


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## BBbliss

Lol, I wouldn't be able to survive that long either!

I never knew IVF was so tough, I'm sorry you are going thru this... The urologist was very honest to my DF and told him it was a tough process to go thru and was not guaranteed. I'm glad he heard it from his dr. I had already told him but I think now he is more simpathec since his appointment.


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## Jazzbird

Briss - good luck for the scan. We are thinking of you!

X


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## Jazzbird

Girls - got a query for you. I've had AF cramps ever since ovulation. I'm 6dpo right now. Do any of you get constant cramps? 

I had this before so not thinking it's a BFP. I've been reading TCM books and think I may have kidney yang deficiency or cold in uterus. I did go swimming on day 4 of my cycle. Swimming during menstruation is not advisable on Chinese medicine because it can attract cold. 

Do any of you get this? So hoping it stops soon or I have another week of this before AF.


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## Blythe

Me, me, me! Every cycle from 3/4 dpo and it have always wondered what it could be. This last cycle I had it for almost the whole 2ww this last cycle which was unheard of fir me. I had wondered whether I had gone overboard with the red clover blossom prior to ovulation.


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## Blythe

Ps jazzbird how long have you been working on your ki yang with the herbs now? Have you noticed a difference?


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## Briss

BBbliss, what did the urologist said about the reasons for your DH's poor SA? can this be improved with vitamins and lifestyle changes? is there a hope for a natural BFP?

Jazzbird, thank you! means a lot to me. what kind of crams do you have? I had AF like cramps (basically mild uterine contractions) ones in a natural cycle (was convinced it was implantation but it was a bfn) and constantly during my first IVF cycle (I was convinced it did not work but then on 10 DPO I started having a different type of pain more like localised dull pain and it was indeed implantation but not very successful cos was a chemical).

Blythe, you are making me concerned about me overdoing it with raspberry/red clover blossom teas cos I drink it every day up until O. I am going to stop and just stick to nettles and mint/ ginger and lemon from today.

afm, not great news from today's scan, two left follicles have grown nicely at 19/20 mm but the third one at 16 mm has grown on the right side :( right above my cyst and they said the cyst is not a simple one cos it has blood inside so they wont be trying to collect that egg because the risk of puncturing the cyst and infection is just too great. So if we are lucky we will get two eggs. My lining is all ready at 13.3 mm. I am officially triggering tonight and EC is scheduled for Tuesday. fingers crossed!!

I asked again about such poor response to meds but it seems like everyone has a different opinion. today's doc said we should try (hopefully we wont have to though) to start with the large dose from CD2 and will possibly get much better result. seems like some think we should stick to natural while others believe more stims are needed. how confusing, seems like there is no simple answer. 

finaly got my notes from our previous IVF and apparently our embryo was graded 4cl/1f, seems ok but i do not really like "f", do not know what it means but it cant be good.


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## Jazzbird

Briss - 2 eggs is fantastic. Try to stay as positive as you can. Thinking of you for Tuesday. Try to visualise a golden egg implanting.

Blythe - I think my herb combo has been working well. I am primarily kidney yin deficient which manifests in long follicular phase, scanty cm, decreased libido and peeled tongue (mine is disgusting!). But if you are kidney deficient in one, you can easily become deficient in the other. So I'm also secondarily kidney yang deficient - I'm generally cold and very cold around lower back/ bum!

Since taking the herbs my cycle length has shortened. I have more cm and I tend to ovulate around cd 14-16. So I think the herbs are working.

But I went swimming cd 4, which is stupid looking back. All your vessels are open and you can easily attract cold if you swim during your period. If you are naturally cold, you will attract cold. 

So I'm guessing that the constant cramps are a sign of cold in the uterus - particularly as the weather has recently turned. I've never had them so strong and immediately after ovulation. 

There are lots of things you can do: eat soups and stews (particularly orange veg like butternut squash, sweet potato etc) avoid too much raw and cold food (includes salads, fruit and cold drinks)

Put your feet in hot water after ovulation every day for 10-15 minutes.

Or put a hot water bottle on your abdomen or lower back every evening. This is what I'm doing from today onwards. 

Don't walk around without socks/slippers on. 

Don't sit on cold floors or stand on them. 

Keep your lower back and abdomen covered. 

Wear hats and gloves outside. Keep yourself very warm and covered up.

All of this is important because cold in uterus can stop implantation.

You san also buy smokeless moxa stick and moxa kid 3 in the first half of your cycle. 

But most of the advice above will probably fix it.


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## Blythe

i think you should be ok with the red blossom teai was using the concentrated extract and really having lots more than advisedi believe it works in the same way soy isoflavines do. But i did get an extended LH surge with it and it did make me ovulated earlier by nearly 2 days. 

i will be taking fertilaid supplements this cycle for women and that has red clover blossom in it so i may avoid the extract [if i do take it i will take it for just 5 days like clomid].

wouldn't it be great if you could get some solid advice about what is the best way forward. i guess this is stuff is so variable that what could work one cycle could totally fail in another. Still great news about the lining [so very important] and brill that you have two good looking follies that are retrievable.

i have no clue about egg grading but please try not to get too hung up on this.focus on these fab eggs you have just waiting for collection. thinking of you over the next few days and hoping that all goes well.


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## Blythe

Jazzbird said:


> Briss - 2 eggs is fantastic. Try to stay as positive as you can. Thinking of you for Tuesday. Try to visualise a golden egg implanting.
> 
> Blythe - I think my herb combo has been working well. I am primarily kidney yin deficient which manifests in long follicular phase, scanty cm, decreased libido and peeled tongue (mine is disgusting!). But if you are kidney deficient in one, you can easily become deficient in the other. So I'm also secondarily kidney yang deficient - I'm generally cold and very cold around lower back/ bum!
> 
> Since taking the herbs my cycle length has shortened. I have more cm and I tend to ovulate around cd 14-16. So I think the herbs are working.
> 
> But I went swimming cd 4, which is stupid looking back. All your vessels are open and you can easily attract cold if you swim during your period. If you are naturally cold, you will attract cold.
> 
> So I'm guessing that the constant cramps are a sign of cold in the uterus - particularly as the weather has recently turned. I've never had them so strong and immediately after ovulation.
> 
> There are lots of things you can do: eat soups and stews (particularly orange veg like butternut squash, sweet potato etc) avoid too much raw and cold food (includes salads, fruit and cold drinks)
> 
> Put your feet in hot water after ovulation every day for 10-15 minutes.
> 
> Or put a hot water bottle on your abdomen or lower back every evening. This is what I'm doing from today onwards.
> 
> Don't walk around without socks/slippers on.
> 
> Don't sit on cold floors or stand on them.
> 
> Keep your lower back and abdomen covered.
> 
> Wear hats and gloves outside. Keep yourself very warm and covered up.
> 
> All of this is important because cold in uterus can stop implantation.
> 
> You san also buy smokeless moxa stick and moxa kid 3 in the first half of your cycle.
> 
> But most of the advice above will probably fix it.

when i was giving TCM my full attention i did all of the above although always avoided direct heat on abdomen post ovulation.although i always got needled on tummy with direct heat from my acu ladyi was never sure about this nor comfortable with it really. 

Despite my disappointment about my acu and herb treatments over the past i may start applying the advice you have set out above againi must say in recent months i have drank cold drinks and had ice cream which i would never have done previously.

i have been having quite a few sweet potatoes recently and this weather is perfect for warming stews etc so time to get some hearty food down me and warm my insides up!

do you know how TCM views hair falling out? i had my hair cut quite short recently and had a good few inches off as i could not bare the handful of hair each time i washed it. it felt so heavy on my head so i thought i would chop it off to try and save at least some. i wonder if it is just an age thing although i see plenty of women in their early 40s with fab hair.


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## Briss

Jazzbird, it makes so much sense what you said about swimming. I have very bad back and am always told to do more swimming but I am just so cold, I love swimming but just cant stand the cold it takes me ages to find it in me to get into the water. I am naturally cold so i guess I am just attracting more cold when I swim. 

Blythe, thanks! looks like my LH has gone up all by itself despite being suppressed. It has not surged yet but I am going to do OPK a bit later on to check. they think I should be OK for EC on Tuesday but there is a small risk of early ovulation.


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## Jazzbird

Hair loss I think is weakness of liver blood and deficiency of kidney essence or "jing".

Good to eat plenty of blood nourishing foods - good quality red meat, dark greens etc, esp after AF. 

Theres a good article which discussed tcm and hair loss but their advice is herb related. 

https://www.fusionhealth.com.au/2013/03/hair-today-gone-tomorrow/

Do you know what your original diagnosis was?

If you don't want to put direct heat on your abdomen, then put the hot water bottle against your lower back. It will heat up the kidneys or "gate of life", good for reproduction etc.

Unless of course you are really hot, then not good to put lots of heat on your body .


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## Blythe

my diagnosis was Ki Yang deficiency and Ki Yin too. Cerrtainly Ki Yang deficiency fits with how i feel.i have always felt the coldmy DH will happily sleep without covers whilst i shiver next to him.

i have just dug out a tub of 'liu wei di huang wan' from my supps bag and will take them ahead of expected ovulation tues after next. i will get DH BD every other day from this friday which is CD9 so that will cover me for CD9, CD 11 and CD 13 and maybe another on CD15 for good luck!

i have been very stressed in my job in recent months and that has not helped. there is some quite serious bullying going on [not me directly but the threat is always lingering] and i am unable to tackle it for a number of reasons. i am holding on for next summer when i am hoping to leave.My dream of course would be to get pregnanti could handle anything that way.even baldness!

thank you for the linki will take a look now :flower:


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## Briss

Blythe, I am very sorry about all the stress you are going through at work. bullying is just nasty. I can only hope that you will get pregnant soon and it all wont matter anymore. All this politics at work is so upsetting. I feel that the partner i work with is sort of "punishing" me for refusing additional work by not giving me any. Last week I billed 4 hours (as opposed to the usual 70-80) which is unthinkable and a few more weeks like that and there will be consequences. he knows that perfectly well and I am quite sure he is doing it on purpose cos I know he is very busy himself so could use my help. I did not care if I lose my job but it seems like DH is not sure about his job as well so I am starting to worry. 

This week I developed really nasty acne, not as bad as when I was on herbs with my previous doc but still quite bad. most of my face is affected and I cant really cover it up cos there is a lot. I asked at the clinic today if it was higher doses of FSH or cetrotide cos that's when it started but they said no. I am not convinced and I think this acne is induced by hormones. I wonder if it's going to get better now that I have stopped stimming.


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## BBbliss

Jazzbird, a lot of good info. Thank you! I also get cramps on my 2ww, a couple of times even sharp stabbing like pain around 6dpo makes me think something was going on, I hoped for implantation cramp but both times I got BFN

Briss, the urologist asked questions about alcohol, smoking, drug use, trauma to the area and stds, he doesn't have or do any of those so there was nothing he could change. He also said its not uncommon at his age to have problems with SA. He said the supplements would not make a difference before three months. So we are waiting on blood work to see if the problem could be a hormonal imbalance, we can treat that, but then again would have to wait another three months at least to see a result in treatment. If there's not a problem with hormone levels then our only chance is ICSI. He also pointed out my age and said the odds are against us and we don't have that time to wait. We get the results this week but it may not change the course of our plans, it's still IVF in January. By then at least we will have had our three months of supps so maybe his sperm will have a better quality regardless and I'm hoping it will give us a better chance.


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## Jazzbird

Sorry to read about bullying at work. I've had some direct and non direct experience and it's so stressful in both situations. 

Liu Wei di huang wan is the base formula for fertility for kidney yin. My gui shao di huang San is the same formula but has additional blood nourishing/moving herbs. The second formula also has similar ingredients but with yang tonifying herbs - so it is said to nourish yang through nourishing yin. 

Briss - sorry to read about your work - it's all stress you just don't need. And the acne must be pretty stressful too. How to stay calm when everything around you is stressful? It's so hard. 

BBbliss - i must research more about this mid cycle pains. Starting to wonder if I always had them but never noticed them. On the other hand I have low progesterone so wondering if the herbs I'm taking are increasing progesterone and causing cramps. 

Who knows? Looks like you can pretty much talk yourself into any theory at all!


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## Blythe

Jazzbird thank you. I value your insights into things. I say it often but I would rely struggle without this forum and our exchanges. :flower:

Briss. All the very best with ec tomorrow. Hope you get a good nights sleep tonight :flower:


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## Jazzbird

Good luck Briss! Hoping two beautiful golden eggs are safely collected. Xxx


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## BBbliss

Briss I hope it all goes well and you get twins! :)


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## Juniperjules

Hi girls.. 
Briss- GOOD LUCK!! sending u love & positivity for ur EC. This thread needs a bfp badly.. I hope it's yours x

Blythe- sorry your feeling so negative atm. It's so depressing this journey. Making babies should be fun, lighthearted.. Surprising.. But I know that when u get ur bfp you'll know the heartache was worth it.. Unfair, but worth it. 

Bbliss- sorry to hear ur IVF appt was a bit negative- but good news that ur on to it now. Take the bill by the horns & jump in head first I say! 

Gingmg, Jen.. Hi girls... Hi to the new girls in here.. Stick around.. The women in here will make u proud to be female... Support, positivity, shoulders to cry on.. Everything that women SHOULD be for each other but often aren't. 

So girls, I have some very surprising & probably shocking news.. But no it's not a BFP ; ) 

My OH & I have not seen, spoke, contacted each other at all. And I have been fine. Infact I've felt calmer, more settled. No anxiety. And if I'm honest I'm almost quite sure he is seeing someone else... I won't go into why- but I'm pretty sure. And I think it's been going on for a while. Which explains the 'push/pull' of our relationship in the past few months... 

And here's the most surprising part of my story. I've met someone.. Actually I already knew him. He's a nurse I've worked with for 2 yrs. he found out that I was technically single atm while we were on a work nite out.. And basically told me that he thinks my OH is a 'f'ing idiot' & that I deserve better... He then told me that he's had a thing for me since we first met. And the crazy thing is.. So have I!!!! I have secretly had the hots for him the whole time I've known him. But innocently of course, I would never have done anything with it. Plus, most of the single girls I work with have the hots for him, bcos he's very good looking & has a really amazing personality.. So.. Currently were kind of seeing each other. It is completely freaking me out- but in the best possible way!!!! I could never have imagined this would happen!! He is also only 32, so 7 yrs younger than me. I tried to tell him I'm too old for him but he told me that was rubbish & he doesn't care. 

I don't want to sound pathetic.. But I honestly haven't felt like this since I was in my 20's. he is pretty amazing. Very attentive, a total gentleman, wants to touch me & hold my hand all the time. Chalk & cheese compared to OH (shouldn't really call him that now, but I have to call him something in here!). 

I feel really comfortable with him, & we are taking things slowly.. Figuring it out as we go. I've always believed that things happen for a reason, & wots for you won't go by you.. Which is difficult when life is crap. But I have a good feeling about this. I'm not counting my chickens.. I'm a very cautious person naturally. But I'm also feeling optimistic bcos we already know each other very well. Am just gonna take it one day at a time & enjoy every minute. I have honestly not felt this happy for years.. Cannot wipe the smile from my face : )


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## Blythe

I have just woken up and read this. What a great start to the day :) wonderful, just wonderful x

Right got to get out of bed and ready for work!!


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## Jazzbird

Yaaaaaaay Juniper! I can't say how thrilled I am for you. This is what you need and deserve. Forget the age thing - it's only a few years!

Oh wow - been so hoping for good news this thread and today we have it in a completely unexpected fashion! So so happy for you Juniper. 

Grab this chance and make the most of it. 

Love you gals! Xxx


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## Juniperjules

Thanks girls... I had to tell you.. 

Jazzbird... So sorry I forgot to mention u & say hello in my post.. Was sitting in my hot car (it's 26 degrees here today) waiting for a friend, & concentration wasn't great! So hello to you : ) and thank you for your unending support... 

Im over the age thing now. initially i think i was just so shocked that he was interested in me that the age difference seemed like a big deal.. But I couldn't care less now. My sister & best friend are both with men 6 & 7 years younger & I was very supportive of them so I'd b stupid to have an issue with it myself now! Plus, he's mature, responsible, stable....I can't honestly believe this has happened. I can't believe I could possibly be so lucky as to end up with this beautiful guy... Only weks after i was feeling like id end up a lonely old spinster!!! life never ceases to amaze me! I already know, respected & admire him. And he is so respectful of me & wot ive been dealing with over the last few years. 

And.. i know you guys will get this.. after the ridiculously non existant sex life that i have had, it is sooooooo strange being with a man who is so in to me..we haven't actually had sex yet.. Taking it slowly so we don't jump in to everything too quickly & mess it up.. But there is an amazing chemistry b/w us. Mind u I have to admit after 18yrs with the same person I am bloody freaking out about actually doing the deed with someone else!!! EEEK!! : ) 

But I'm not looking too far ahead- I'm just enjoying wots happening right now, every day of it. Bcos I never thought I could be this happy again. Miracles do happen ; )


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## Jazzbird

Don't apologise juniper! I know what it's like scrolling through all the posts and trying to remember who said what!

You must keep us updated on your new man. How amazing this has happened. Just when I start to think everything is random - this happens to you. 

A friend of mine was trying with her hubby for a baby for a few years. He ended their marriage shortly after they bought their home. She was devastated ... But 2 years on she remarried and got pregnant on her honeymoon. 

Regardless of what happens this is a good thing. At the very least it gives you hope you can love again and at the most perhaps he might turn out to be the right one for you. 

So excited! Makes a nice change to read about something other than our frustrating and upsetting ttc journeys!


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## BBbliss

Juniper! I'm so excited for you! You know...I had wanted to just tell you to move on, maybe I did. Hehe, I didn't want to sound insensitive to your 18years of marriage. But I believe everything happens for a reason and there was a reason you never got BFP with your DH. I think the best years of your life are still ahead of you with a supportive loving partner that is crazy about you. It happened for me at 43! Lol

I'm so happy you found a man that makes you feel special, because you are!


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## gingmg

YAY Juniper!!!! Best news I've heard in awhile!!!


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## Briss

Juniper, wonderful news!! unbelievable!! I was so happy to read your post. I feel so much better cos am having a really crappy day myself and needed a bit of good news to cheer me up. I am so hoping that this new relationship will bring you the happiness you deserve. It's all very exciting! keep us updated.

sorry to be casting a shadow over this thread by my EC was, to put it mildly, disappointing. Only one mature egg. I had a temp rise this morning and suspected I ovulated and turned out I was right. one of the two follicles on the left disappeared. Somehow, the doc managed to get one more egg from my right ovary without touching the cyst so we had 2 eggs collected but the lab just confirmed that only one egg was mature for ICSI. anxiously waiting for the news on fertilisations tomorrow. 

had a bit of a breakdown when we got home, all the stims etc and the result is no better than we would have got from a completely natural cycle. I will spare you what my DH had to say on the matter but he is very upset. Mainly with the clinic for making me go through the stims and for missing the egg. The doc said there was no way to prevent early ovulation. It's all very distressing.


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## Blythe

Briss. Can they not work with the other egg at all. Does the egg have to be mature? Sorry if daft question.!

Thank god they got the eggs they did if you ovulated the other one....that time after the trigger must be so very stressful. 

I understand your husbands anger but it all seems such a gamble.... I winder if the stims had started earlier if the result would have been different. 

You must now focus on getting some rest and forget about those stupid stims and focus on what's ahead. I am thinking of you through this very stressful time and praying that your egg will fertilise and go on to be your bfp. :hugs:


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## Briss

Blythe, I asked exactly the same question. they explained that for ICSI the egg has to be mature but in order to find out if the egg is mature they need to prepare it by taking out all surrounding tissue. once they do that they cant use the egg for IVF any more only for ICSI so if it turns out to be immature it's bad luck. they said it wont fertilise or develop properly. I really do not know. my poor eggie is all alone in this lab :( I do not even know what they did with the other one... it's just so sad


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## Briss

there is a program called donor mum on Really. it's really interesting cos it seems like people who are donor conceived struggle with not knowing who their biological father/mother is and are desperate to find out. I was considering donor sperm (DH thinks he did his part and has been in the pub most of today!) but it does put a different spin on things.


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## Jazzbird

I'm sorry Briss you went through all those stims - you must be so deflated. But you know now that natural is the way forwards. It's really good to try all options. 

You have one egg and ultimately that's all it takes. Better to have one good quality egg than 5 sub-standard. 

Let's all try and visualise this egg turning into a healthy embryo. Perhaps our collective consciousness can help it on its way. 

Praying this one sticks Briss - God knows you deserve a break.

Xxx


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## Briss

my only egg did not fertilise. they told me it was not good quality. strange after all this talk on how great my blood flow was. It's the end of the road for this cycle. I am in pieces and cant even think clearly where we go from here. totally devastating...


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## Jazzbird

I'm so very sorry Briss. This is just heart breaking. Sending you the biggest virtual hug. 

Don't think about what to do next, give yourself space and time to grieve. 

Xxx


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## Blythe

I'm so very sorry to read about this Briss. :hugs: I'm thinking of you today


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## gingmg

I'm so sorry to hear this Briss. Sending you virtual hugs.


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## BBbliss

I'm so sorry Briss, this is devastating... Don't rush into any conclusions yet, you don't need to make any decisions today. Take time for yourself and tomorrow you will know where you stand in all this. 

I was just thinking, what happened to the egg that diapered? Maybe I misunderstood but, Did you ovulate it naturally? It looks like you got some BD the days leading up to it. Is it possible that one could be the good one and fertilizes naturally the good old-fashioned why?


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## Juniperjules

Briss, so sorry you've had bad news. I'm devastated for you. There's no words.. Hugs & love to you xox


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## Briss

BBbliss, the egg that got away was most likely the best one this cycle but unfortunately I did not listen to DH and did not BD (I mean he does not usually ask but it's like he knew this was going to happen and asked me to BD) before O, as they told me to stop 3 days before EC with his poor SA and I listen to them rather than DH so the timing was just not right for natural conception so I am not holding my breath for this cycle. 

ladies thank you for your support. I am still in shock, constantly crying and in disbelief. At the moment I do not even know what to think and what to hope for. yeas of very intensive TTC and 2 failed IVF which cost us about 11K. I think I am going to take a break for a while I never thought I'd say it but I am reaching my limits on how much misfortune I can take before I break and want to give up and end it all. I am sure it will pass and I will carry on fighting but not the next few weeks. I might stay away from B&B for a bit because it's getting hard for me and my TTC efforts are not bringing me any closer to a baby.


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## BBbliss

Briss, I feel your pain, this is sad... Do take a few weeks break from here, this ttc is so consuming, its tireing and frustrating with every passing cycle. We all need a break from ourselves once in a while to recharge. I'll be thinking of you. 


Afm, lab results are in for DF and all his hormone levels are normal. The urologist said there's nothing he can do, we can keep trying or go for ICSI. I had a feeling. I'm ok with it so now we need to make that app with the RE.


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## threebirds

Really sorry Briss, I know how devastating this journey is. Dont give up just yet but do take a break and be good to yourself. Right now you need a lot of tlc. Thinking of you xxx :hugs:


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## Jazzbird

Echoing what everyone else is saying - take a break from everything. We are always here if you need us. 

And please don't listen to your OH. Of course you would follow a specialist's advice, especially when you are paying thousands. 

You did what all sane people would do - please do not tear yourself apart with the choices you made. 

Take the time out, answers will come to you when you have space. 

Hugs Briss. Xxx


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## Blythe

Hi ladies. Hope you are all well and hanging on in there. (Briss thinking of you :hugs:)

Nothing much to report here.....I brought those new cd ovulation sticks....the ones that flash before getting a solid smiley face. I had blank circles until a solid smily face this morning so they did not really work for me. 

Juniperjules.....have you bonked with new BF yet? If so, what would you give him marks out of ten?


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## Jazzbird

He he Blythe! That made me laugh. You shouldn't ask such personal questions but since you did - juniper what's your answer?!!! 



AFM I'm in poas hell. I'm 14 dpo today, no AF yet. I poas a few days ago and thought I could see the faintest of faintest lines. So I've been poas like there is no tomorrow. A boots brand came back negative and now I'm pretty sure the lines are just evap lines. 

This has been the worst month so far - I became completely obsessed, oh and I are arguing constantly. He has no energy to bd more than twice a month - he is still unwell after that crappy operation. 

I'm fairly sure his sperm must be affected but he's still reluctant to take vitamins. 

I just want AF here so I can get on with my life and stop googling symptoms!


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## Briss

ladies, thank you so much for your kind words of support and encouragement. I am still here, just lurking&#8230; not posting much

2 failed IVFs is a completely new low point for me&#8230; I talked to a few ladies on FF as they seem to be more IVF clued up than us on B&B and it seems like I am not alone, far from it actually. IVF is a complete misery and huge money making machine for the clinics. getting pregnant via IVF is just pure luck 

am also trying to keep myself away from B&B as am really getting addicted, being constantly on B&B is like a life (or job even) on its own on top of TTC (hence the number of posts&#8230;) and it's not helping at the moment. I need to get myself through these next few months before we can try again. not looking forward to Christmas at all, hate all the decorations and festive airs around the office&#8230; for me it's all just a reminder of yet another year going by&#8230; Am due to deliver a presentation tomorrow for which I am completely unprepared, am going to make a fool of myself but just cannot find it in me to do it, my head does not seem to be working any more and there is so much to cover, 2 hour training&#8230; it's going to be a disaster! 

p.s. I've put most of my weight back in the last few months&#8230; so much effort and all for nothing I just cant sustain it for long


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## Briss

Jazzbird, boots tests are rubbish, try FRER or at least Superdrug. Fingers crossed!


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## Blythe

Jazzbird - so you have been getting lots of faint lines on the other tests? report back with newsi hope the lines continue to get darkeras Briss says the FRERs are the best but as you are now nearly in the late period zone you should start seeing the line on the other tests too. A BFP on this thread would be lovely before christmas.

Briss - the more i read about IVF the more terrified i am of it.even with the best stats i see girls responding badly to medswho can afford to keep doing this - emotionally and financially. I know create is meant to be a non-profit making organisation but according to robert whatsisname IVF actually costs peanuts. Its like each one is an experiment..its bullshitI'm so angry about it all and that you had such a crap experience with create the second time around. a few months away from that will be a good thing and i only read yesterday about a women who got pregnant after 3 failed ivfs.sure ivf improves chances but luck plays the biggest part in all of this. it could happen this month brissit would be amazing but it could happenif that egg popped out 3 days after BD one of the little blighters just might have made it..

now listenyou will be great tomorrowI'm sure you do know your stuff and the right things tend to come out under pressure. Please let me know how it went. Go in the room and pretend you are tina turner/madonna/joan rivers [!?!] full of confidence [or someone else that is cool and confident!] I am off to brussels on sunday night and have to give a presentation to a nato delegationi have been listening to my paul mckenna hypnosis tape. Unfortunately it only seems to have worked once on mei cannot switch my brain off. i cannot let go of controlits exhausting. i want to be hypnotised into a confident go getter that does not deal with idiots! Unfortunately, i am quite the opposite at the moment and i feel idiotic for being so weak.


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## Jazzbird

Hi Gals. I don't know how to do spoilers (so sorry) and I think this is probably too early ... BUT, I took a clear blue test and it was POSITIVE! 

I'm in total shock and disbelief.


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## Briss

re presentation, thank you! but I am beyond help, I had to put together some reading notes as a last resort ... yes, I am just going to read them cos otherwise it will be a very short presentation :( being an idiot as myself the notes are like 2-3 pages for each slide which is going to take me hours to read... no, this is just hopeless. and instead of reading and shortening my notes I am back in here chatting. I have to say I do not often feel so useless. the only comforting thing is that it's for our offices worldwide so only London people will actually see me, the rest will be hearing my voice. At this point I am really glad it's not to a nato delegation :) but there is a catch - it will be recorded! a partner from one of our offices is coming over to london to co-present with me, I am hoping he can pick up my failings and make it all better as we go alone. and i will try to look like madonna :)

re IVF, this is so true, it's just like no one really knows anything and every time you have no idea what kind of outcome you can expect. I've come across ladies who went through as much as 14 IVFs! and it does look like Create is much cheaper than any other clinic in london. at CGRH ladies spend 2-3K only on bloods! Create acceppted most of my previous bloods and did not make me do more tests. CRGH can make you pay around 14K for a stim cycle cos it seems like their accounting team and doctosr are not talking to each other so docs tell you various things that you need to do but they have no idea how much each of this costs and at some point you get a bill from CGRH which can be quite shocking. you just do not know who to trust. people recommend different clinics but it all depends on where they got lucky and finally were successful so it does not really help you. Although most people get successful after 1-2 IVFs but obviously not with my luck. IVf side effects can be quite nasty. I am still not quite sure where my body is, TMI been having really weird discharge I so hope it's not infection or something from EC. I really hate the idea of IVF and the entire process, stim cycle is particularly nasty but than without IVf it's even worse cos I am just hanging in there with no hope whatsoever while time is ticking away. I think we may spend some money on just going around and booking intial appointments with clinics and checking what protocols they would recommend before embarking on the next IVF. I am also going to do antibiotics next cycle just in case. Makes me angry at Create they also wanted me to do endo scratch! how lucky I refused cos it's really invasive and what's the point where we do not even get to ET. Do not even know what to think about egg quality. what would it be so bad this time around when on our first try we had 1 grade embryo - best possible quality. was it stims that affected my eggs quality? or is it just the fact that I need to aim for the dominant follicle and ignore the rest so just do natural IVF. or is it really the age thing? I am really angry that they missed my best egg! they could not handle controlling my cycle. i do O on CD11/12 so taking it to CD13 was risky. it's all to do with them not stimming me right trying to get more follicles to develop while losing the one that was ready and was of best quality. I met quite a few people unhappy with Create. but I do not know if the alternative is that better. overall i do not think we had a choice so IVF was our only realistic option but the second cycle was really poorly managed and it could have turned out differently if they converted it into IUI or natural IVF and concentrated on the dominant egg.


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## Blythe

Congratulations :happydance: you must be so thrilled. What a wonderful thing to see. Those bloody herbs did work!!


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## Briss

Jazzbird, OMG this is fantastic!! fingers crossed for a sticky bean!! I am so hoping this is it for you! Is the line strong?


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## Blythe

Did you get any symptoms?


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## Jazzbird

On the Clearblue it is fairly dark. Not as dark as the test line, but its still unmistakable and appeared after 30 seconds. The internet cheap ones are now showing a more visible line, although its still fairly faint.

I don't know how to upload images or I would.

Thanks girls, I really hope this is it too. Its incredibly early but I'm so pleased I've made it this far and that is what I have to remember should it not work out.

I'm so hoping that this will start a domino effect for you all. You all deserve it so much. I hope it hasn't upset you gals - I know its always bittersweet when someone posts their BFP and I'm still in disbelief that its me posting.

Much love to you all XXX


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## Jazzbird

Blythe - I had loads of cramps around ovulation for a few days. I thought it was kidney yang deficiency (what the hell do I know). Then I felt horny 7 dpo - which is not like me at all. I felt sick one evening when getting off the train. I've cramped a lot in the last 4 days, but I of course put it down to AF. 

The worst thing is, was that I was so convinced I hadn't conceived, I drank a glass of my birthday champagne for a few nights last week and even had a gin and tonic on the train home on Friday. I hardly ever drink.


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## Blythe

Whilst I am typing (and watching eastenders) my DH is in the bedroom about to ejaculate into a small pot.....I'm going to go in after and stuff loads of preseed up there followed by his deposit. I'm trying something different as I'm hoping I can target it nearer my cervix and he moans that sex is a chore which it is after a long day at work so hoping this might help. 

Congrats again. Lovely news x


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## Blythe

There wasn't much there! Just the tiniest amount...he looks embarrassed and I'm wondering if that's normal. Plus using the preseed applicator has not really worked. Oh well nothing ventured......,


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## Juniperjules

OMG!!!! Jazzbird!!!! This is phenomenal news!!! Yay!!! Am soooooo pleased for you!! This thread is well & truly overdue some happy vibes!!!! : ) have everything crossed for you that things continue to head in a positive direction... Wow.. Very exciting!

Briss, again am sorry for ur pain right now. IVF is just not easy.. It's expensive & invasive. And very emotionally taxing. Whatever u do, we're always here to support you x

Blythe, wot u just tried is wot we were doing for months.. To increase the volume get ur DH to drink AT LEAST a litre of water every day. My OH has always drank a bit of water, but he downloaded an iPhone app (& became a bit obsessed with it!), but it meant he was drinking a minimum of 1lt- and it really made a difference. 

And regarding any bonking ; ) hehe... That question made me laugh too!! But alas at the moment I have nothing to report yet... We've only been alone with 'opportunity' a couple of times so far & didn't quite get 'there' yet. I actually am quite certain that this new guy.. (Ill call him P!), is trying to be very very careful about not doing things to quickly!! I was with him Sunday nite & things were getting pretty hot & heavy, but we kinda ran out of time I guess bcos it was so late & I was very conscious that he had to b up super early for work. Then as I was about to leave he asked me 'are things going ok? Not moving too slowly?'... Which was obviously in reference to sex- and like a stupid teenager I just kind of smiled & said 'no, it's great!'...so I think he's def keen but trying to be polite : ) he's so sweet.

I swear to god I feel like a fish out of water with all this stuff! I mean, it feels amazing.. But I feel like a born again virgin I'm so nervous about it all!!! At this age!! Lord help me! However, it's my birthday this weekend, & were going out for drinks with our work friends- & I feel like probably it'll happen then, after a few drinks when were both a bit more relaxed. I've got to admit girls... It's 2 weeks now, and just sitting with him kissing me etc, I feel like my heart is gonna beat right out of my chest... My pulse just absolutely skyrockets!! I forgot wot this feels like. I've been playing things cautiously bcos were already friends.. But I'm def ready to jump his bones any day now! : ) 

And on that note... I need some advice & opinions.. I've never been on the pill, and at this age I'm not remotely interested in going on it. But given that this guy is brand new, I'm not sure how to approach things??? I guess I'm thinking its not exactly a topic I want to have to bring up after only 2-3 weeks 'hey so I've been ttc for over a year & nothing has happened, PLUS I'm about to turn 39, so I'm not really keen to start taking the pill & messing with my body/ hormones at this point in my life- soooo are u cool with that???'... And I mean, he's a nurse, he's a good guy, so I'm figuring he'd be 'prepared'.. But geez... This is all new ground for me! I haven't had to worry about safe sex, condoms & contraception for a lifetime!!! 
HELP!??


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## BBbliss

Jazz!!!!! That's fantastic! I'm thrilled for you! This is not bittersweet, it's just sweet :)

I have the biggest smile on my face, I can't contain it! Yay!!!!

I think it will have a domino effect on this thread and thank you for starting it!


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## BBbliss

As for IVF I agree, it's not guaranteed and its a money making machine. The more I read the more discouraged I get. I'm still making an appoint with a new clinic with better success rates but its still one in fifteen for my age. I'm just hoping the fact I have a lot of eggs will compensate for the age and they will have a good one in the mix.


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## BBbliss

Juniper, I'm so happy for you too! This is just what you needed! Just let him lead, he sounds like a gentleman and he cares, that's very sweet of him. And btw, coming from someone who was single for 12 years, don't worry about the safe sex part, I'm absolutely sure HE will be prepared. He'll also ask about bc once you get passed the condom stage and you go from there... Careful, you could be next after jazzbird, lol

Happy birthday!


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## Jazzbird

Thank you ladies. I took another test but the line was faint again. It's too late though I've already got my hopes up. 

Juniper - I love reading about this new relationship - keep posting! I'm sure he'll have it figured out but I'm with you - don't take the pill use condoms. Perhaps you could buy a few just in case. He might not want to seem presumptuous if he whips them out. He sounds like a true gent. 

Blythe - I've often thought my oh didn't produce much but I guess it's quality not quantity - you never know. 

I so understand your feelings about ivf Briss. When I went to a clinic to get tested - I thought to myself - wow this is big business. But I do know a few people it has worked for. You had a near miss with the natural cycle - so I would consider that route if you are thinking of giving it a go again. But completely understand your reticence. Perhaps you could wait a few months til your cycle settles down a bit. 

BBbliss, Gingmg - hugs to you lovely ladies too. 

X


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## gingmg

OMG!!!!! Congrats Jazzbird!! Sticky thoughts going out to you.


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## Briss

Jazzbird, do not worry about the line not being dark enough, it all depends on the test stick and whether your urine is diluted. ignore the internet cheap ones, they are confusing you. Still the best thing you can do is go for blood test to check your beta levels, it will give you some comfort. I am very happy for you!! What a lovely birthday present! It's very re-assuring that good things happen to good people. gives me hope. still it obviously reminds me of the fact how abnormal our situation is and that it must be something fundamentally wrong with my Dh and I that we cannot conceive in almost 4 years neither naturally nor via IVF. but forget about me, tell us what did you do differently in the last 2-3 months? I am all ears. I already noted that drinking champagne and a gin and tonic is a must &#61514;:) 

Blythe, well done on trying to come up with new ways to get your DH's spermies up there. I was thinking of trying it actually. though I hate using preseed applicator, it's so uncomfortable. your temp did not go up yet so you can keep trying if your DH is up for it. My presentation was OK, not brilliant but acceptable. I'm just glad it's all over. I am actually also not happy with myself for being so weak but I have more pressing things to make me hate myself than not being good at public speaking. 

Juniperjules, happy bonking! I am sure it's going to be wonderful. so happy things are progressing well. I am so tempted to tell you not to use any contraception whatsoever, naughty I know. if he offers condom I'd accept it but I would not volunteer it&#8230; 

BBbliss, if you can I'd still go for IVF at least once, maybe twice. otherwise you may end up regretting not giving it a chance later on. I do think that my situation is way below the average and most people get pregnant after 1-2 IVFs. Do ask about natural IVF as well. but then who knows you may get a lovely Christmas present naturally

gingmg, how is it going?


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## Blythe

Well find in doing the presentation. Bet you are glad it is out if the way. I have extensive notes fir my own too...I cannot talk off the top of my head so I have to read a script. 

DH won't bd tonight but hoping for an early morning one before work. 

Re the insemination....it was only about 0.5ml.....barely enough to suck up into the thingy.....think I will stick to bd. DH assured my he drank loads of water to increase volume (thank you Juniperjules for tip). Obviously I'm now concerned about estrogen from water bottles :)


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## Jazzbird

Briss - I have been thinking about what I did differently. I'm so scared to jinx it, so wonder if I should write this post at all. I honestly don't know what I did differently - as there are so many variables. We DTD on the day I noticed EWCM (this is usually just one day) and the day after when I got my LH peak. This is pretty much the pattern I've followed for the last several months. He was too tired after those days to do it again. And it was the only times he came in the whole month. I was always worried that it needed to be more regular, so the sperm were fresh.

We went away for my birthday. It was so relaxing (perhaps it was this?). We arrived the day before EWCM and BD the next morning. I lay in bed a lot longer than usual (a few hours). I did the same the next day although it was in the evening (perhaps it was this). I noticed the next day I could still feel wetness (sorry TMI) like it had stayed up a long time.

On the herb front, I have been good about taking the first set of herbs for kidney yin & blood (gui shao di huang san) but not so consistent with kidney yang (you gui san). This month I've been religious about both ... perhaps its this? I do feel that the herbs have regulated my cycle which was pretty rubbish in january of this year. I had long cycles and barely no temperature differential between follicular and luteal phases. When the temp did rise, it was very slow. This is classic kidney yang.

Since commuting into London I've done more exercise - just brisk walking to and from the station. Perhaps its this?

This month, OH started reluctantly taking (although not consistently) conception vitamins. Perhaps its this?

It all feels so random. I really don't know what made it different.

4 years is a really long time Briss, I really feel for you. I wish I could give you a solution you hadn't already tried. I of course always feel that acupuncture/herbs is the best way forwards for both male and female infertility, but I know you've gone down that road, got the T-shirt etc. And besides I have no idea whether it actually was a factor in my positive test.

I guess all I'm saying is that when you look at the cost of one IVF cycle, it would pay for herbs (in powder not raw form) for quite a few years. There is a great herbalist who helped my friends husband with his sperm. His name is Ken Lloyd [email protected] - he practices in hampstead, dorset and a few other places. He is the president of the Register of Chinese Herbal Medicine and teaches at my old college and I think at the University of Westminster. I am in no way affiliated with him!


I still believe you will get your BFP eventually. I'm so praying it will be your turn next. It seems so unfair that some people try for a few weeks half heartedly and are pregnant and those that so desperately want it, struggle. 

Thank you again ladies for everything.


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## Briss

seems like everyone at my firm is really good at talking off the top of their head but me so I usually spend hours preparing and practically memorising what I am going to say so at least it looks like I am talking off the top of my head cos I am not looking at my notes. but today I just could not bring myself to do all this work and was openly reading my script. I could tell some partners were not approving and were giving me looks but whatever. also a partner invited me for lunch today and he ordered some beer while I was drinking mint tea (obviously!), he then started talking about some other associate who was not drinking on one of the trips and turned out to be pregnant??? what?? is he hinting that I might be pregnant? I just ignored him but the irony of it all hurts. I am not nowhere near being pregnant but still under constant suspicion. apparently my pregnant colleague was discussed at the partner's meeting today. can you believe this? have they nothing better to do? it just shows how difficult it is for women in the legal profession.

I hope you can get one more BD in tomorrow morning. 

My Dh drinks liters of water but it's all from water bottles unfortunately. Do you think filtered tap water is better? 

I made DH BD quite lot during our IVF cycle (what a shame it's all wasted), than we had 3 days break and on the day of EC his count was 10 which is almost as much as when he did not drink for 3 months but morphology was only 1%. I still think frequent BD improves SA at least its quantity. I just do not know what i can do to get him to BD.


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## Briss

Jazzbird, thank you for recommending the herbalist. we will see what the urologist is going to say on friday and maybe I can get DH to look at herbs again. 

I actually think that the fact that your DH started taking vitamins is a factor. it also does look like herbs might have worked for you. your are a very healthy and young couple so I think it was long overdue really :) enjoy every minute of it and fingers crossed for a H&H pregnancy!


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## gingmg

Had my IVF consult today. We will start after the new year with the long protocol. Going to do one more IUI with a new donor first, but I'm not all that hopeful for it. My RE only wants to transfer 1 embryo. She said ultimately the choice is up to us, but thinks it's best to only do one, even if that means doing it a few times. I understand where she is coming from with the risk of prematurity with twins, and the last thing I want to do is be one of the moms that I take care of, but it does mean our chances are less transferring once versus two. I'm not sure how to feel about all of this. I never thought I would find myself here, but here I am. My RE was very optimistic about IVF, but she was also optimistic that the IUIs were going to work for me, and I'm still here a year later, so I just don't know. I signed up for a mind/body program at one of the other IVF centers in the city. It meets for 8 weeks, and starts the end of jan. I think I'll need some support going through IVF. Haven't started acupuncture again, but thinking it would be good to do as well. So I guess this next month I'm going to try to get healthy, both physically and emotionally. I joined weight watchers again last week, I'm sick of being heavier than I used to be, I just don't feel good. I lost one pound this week, so hopefully I will continue to loose. Also, we found a townhouse we really like. We are going back to see it on thurs, and then if all seems good will make an offer. It needs some love and updating, so I guess if we get it, I will have multiple little projects to keep me busy. That's all I got for now.


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## Jangela

Hello,
I'm starting acupuncture today to see if it brings back my cycle.
I had a big shock last week after having an exam for a new endo cyst because my blood work came back with a FSH at 114. I was devastated. No period for 7 months; my doctor says it's early menopause (I'm 42)I thought it was from the stress of work and recent weight loss from 4HourBody diet.

After scouring the internet, I started on supplements: DHEA, Vitamin D, Black Cohosh and Chaste Berry Tree extract. I also drink nettle tea. After one week on the herbs and supplements my CM is back today! I think the regime is working already. I do yoga twice a week to relax. Also, for one week I have been massaging the points recommended in a video by Randine Lewis. 

I will start taking a ubiquinol supplement, as I read that it boosts mitochondrial function which enhances the fitness of your eggs. I am a biochemist and much of what I have been reading about the ubiquinol supplement sounds correct. 
Not sure how much acupuncture will help. I hope to share a positive follow-up soon!


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## Briss

gingmg, I forgot how old are you? If you are not 35 yet that may explain why they just want to transfer one but still I am very surprised because this is usually up to the lab. They can never tell in advance what the quality of embryos is going to be like and depending on that they would recommend day 3 or 5 transfer and 1 or 2 embryos. Anyway, the fact that she is so confident with recommending one embryo transfer means that your stats are very good so it's a very positive sign. still, fingers crossed you wont need it. I can really relate on being heavier than you used to be, I so hate this! I was so happy when I lost weight and now it's all back cos I cant stop myself with the cakes. Could not do my jacket this morning and it was loose only 4 months ago, truly depressing. you are doing so well on the smoking front! I just cant stop admiring you for that, I can only imagine what a struggle you are going through on a daily basis. is it getting any easier? 

Jangela, welcome. FSH of 114 just does not sound right. are you sure it's not 11.4? 42 is still young for a menopause. what is 4HourBody diet? what kind of yoga do you do? I am trying to get myself to do yoga but struggling to motivate myself. ubiquinol/coq10 is good, I've been taking it for a couple of years now? Although my recent IVF failed due to egg quality issue but I think it was induced by wrong stim protocol. Did they check your blood flow to uterus/ovaries? Do you still have follicles on your ovaries? please update us on your progress with acu. are you taking herbs?

Blythe, well done on getting one more BD in. what a nice temp rise! 

Jazzbird, how are you feeling today? are you going to do blood test for beta?

afm, I am due to visit a friend who's just had a baby. struggling. I was hoping by then I would have had a positive pregnancy test cos was quite sure the second IVF would work but now I just do not know where to get the strength and it's quite late to refuse. any advice on what I can give her as a present?


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## Jazzbird

I'm so scared of losing this embryo. I keep running to the toilet to check. I'm reading stats on miscarriage. I never thought past getting a positive. 

I've made an apptmt to see the doc but the earliest they can fit me in is in 2 weeks. Should I be going earlier?! X


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## Briss

Jazzbird, why are you even thinking that? are you bleeding or having very strong cramps? beta bloods costs about 50 pounds privately if your GP cant get it done quickly just go privately, really worth it for piece of mind. I am sure it's all going well, ladies have all sorts of AF like symptoms, some even the entire first trimester have spotting and cramping and it's all normal. scan probably wont tell you much at this stage but checking your beta levels is important.


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## Blythe

I did my temp at 1am and it was around 36.30 then I only got the jump around 5am....I no longer sleep through the night hence taking temp ghroughout night. I bd'd around 5am so hopefully caught egg on way down....

Jazzbird. Stop reading about miscarriages you nutter and start looking at suitable maternity wear for the spring/summer season. I went to docs at 5 weeks pregnant.....all they do is refer you for 12 week scan and add it to your notes. I know those first few weeks are nerve wracking and I'm sure we will be the same when it happens to us all

Briss - have you got a tk maxx near or how about something just for mum like flowers and a bottle of wine. it's horrible going somewhere when you thought you would be pregnant by then. :hugs: I got an email from a friend in NZ today who recently announced her pregnancy. She said they had tried for ages (1year) and after having her tubes flushed she got pregnant twice. I can't believe I have not dropped one decent egg in 3 years.....although have now concluded it is DH sperm volume that is issue (for now at least)


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## Briss

Blythe, your timing is perfect as the egg still lives for about a day after being released it's bound to meet a friend on its way and hopefully get married. Why are you not able to sleep through the night? I've been to tk maxx in the city during my lunch break but could not find anything. I thought you are supposed to get something for the baby, not the mum? I think she had a girl but cant be sure, I am just so used to blocking this info from my mind that I cant recall it back when I need to&#8230; I am quite sure your eggs are fine it might be a combination of the outer layer of your eggs getting harder and DH's swimmers are not strong enough to get through

afm, I think my acne is starting to heal finally, it's been a nightmare, every morning 2-3 new friends all over my face. it's definitely stim meds but annoying it did not stop once I stopped stimming.


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## BBbliss

Blythe, good job this am! And thumbs up for the insemination, I'd be doing the same, btw don't worry about the volume, we have the same problem and urologist said its no big deal, besides my mother's bc method was douching immediately after DD and I have a sister and a brother from that method. 

Briss, I noticed your temp is up today :) and also that you had a couple of BD within three day before O. Well, I'm hopeful for you that this could be that golden egg that got away and that it did NOT get away! 

Ging, I just made my appointment with new RE and I hope I can start in January also, we can be IVF buddies... I must confess I'm really nervous about the whole thing, not so much the physical part but the emotional part of the process. 

Jazz, stop reading! Start dreaming! You must believe in your body's ability to nurture this embryo into a healthy baby. We are all praying for you!

Juniperjules, tell us everything! How's it going?

Jangela, sounds like you have a great plan of action for yourself, congratulations in taking control and getting informed. My very best friend had her last baby at 36 and right after at 37 started to go into menopause. She was in shock and her doctor told her it was genetic and she should ask her mother, she did and found out her aunt had gone into early menopause. I'm not saying this to discourage you, but it is possible, I recently read an article about a new study that says the strongest predictor is genetics and woman usually are the same as their mothers. But also, my friend DID get pregnant at the tail end of her fertility. I have also read a lot of woman do. Good luck!

Afm, 14dpo today and I went to check my cervix and noticed spotting :( on to December now. Btw, thanks Briss, who knows... I have Four cousins and a sister pregnant right now! This is one fertile family I tell you. I'm absolutely sure I'd be pregnant already if my DF had healthy sperm :(


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## gingmg

Jazzbird- STOP READING!!!! There is no reason to think that you won't carry this baby to term. Try very hard to enjoy this time. 

Briss- I am 35. My RE said if the embryos make it to day 5 she only wants to transfer one, if they look like they should be transferred on day 2 or 3, we can do 2. Ultimately, it's up to us. But I do worry about prematurity with twins, although I love the idea of twins. I don't know a single nurse I work with that made it to term, and that's with a single pregnancy. I think my job is so physically demanding, that people go early. I am also the one who makes the decent salary and we can't afford with me being on bedrest throughout a pregnancy. I guess we will do one, even if that means doing it a couple of times. I am lucky in that insurance covers 6 cycles of fresh IVF plus FETs. I wonder if that's why she only wants to do one, because they can make money off of doing it a couple of times knowing I'm not the one paying. I don't know, I'm so leery of it all right now.

BBliss- YAY, we can be IVF buddies. When do you start? I think I will start birth control sometime shortly after the new year.

Blythe- Sorry you haven't been sleeping well. I hope you caught that egg!

Janjella- Welcome.

Juniper- So happy for you. Can't wait for more juicy details! :happydance:

HI to Jen if you still read.


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## Briss

BBbliss, sorry about your spotting. sperm issues are the most frustrating thing cos there seem to be so little we can do about it. 

re early menopause, it's random actually my granny had 5 children and had hers at 59 while I seem to be entering it already&#8230; 

My temp is strange it's even higher than when I was on progesterone. I guess temping during IVF cycle is not really informative though I did spot early ovulation thanks to temping. I think FSH/stims are increasing my body temperature which may explain my acne (i.e. excess heat?)


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## Briss

gingmg, it's really hard to say. if you get to day 5 and your lining and everything else is perfect than it might be OK to go with just one. I totally agree that twins is hard and risky but I really love the idea of twins! the entire family in one go :)


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## BBbliss

Ging, I just made an app for consultation with new RE for January 2nd but asked to be on a waiting list just in case. I really hope they don't ask for new blood work since I just had it all done with old dr. It would just be time consuming and expensive to pay out of pocket for all that tasting again. I'll let you know when I go in but I do want to go ahead ASAP. Fingers crossed they take us in right away. Fingers crossed for both of us!


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## Jazzbird

I decided to post at home, because I can read all your messages on a proper screen rather than scrolling on my iphone at work!

I still want to join in the discussion ... is this allowed? I'm not changing my status until I'm certain its for keeps (well as certain as you can ever be).

Thanks ladies for the gentle slap round the face (I laughed at work at your post Blythe calling me a Nutter ... that's exactly what I am!). I'm terrible, always focus on what could go wrong. I almost feel that enjoying it is jinxing it. I took another test today (I know, madness) - clearblue digital with the week thing. This worried me - I'm technical 2-3 weeks post conception, but it came up with 1-2. I think this is what set me off.

I'm just going to have to take each day as it comes and enjoy it while it lasts. 

I'm excited for all the IVF appointments and RE consults and urologist consults. I so hope this gets you along in your journey.

Briss - do you know when your mum went into menopause? I hope you survived the meeting with your friend. It is such a killer. I was so dreading xmas spending it at my in laws with all the grandchildren, feeling like a total loser on the pull out bed.

Blythe - I hope you caught your egg. Its so hard to know what to do. I honestly thought my OH sperm was damaged from the operation. He has lost his libido and worryingly after sex he gets bone achingly tired and the backs of his knees ache for days. You just don't know. Even a little bit contains millions of swimmers.

Gingmg, I have faith that an IUI will work. I can't remember how many you've had but it is supposed to be on average a year. It genuinely seems so random.

BBbliss - can you not direct the new RE to do what you want? Does it not work that way in US, especially since its privately funded? I think we just need to boss people around a bit more. I'm so meek and mild and go along with whatever is suggested and arsey people seem to get what they want.

Juniper - we all want a bonking update!  Hope its going well.

Jangella, welcome!!! I'm so pleased you are trying acupuncture for lack of menstruation. I have seen it work in clinic (I'm an acupuncturist). They basically treat you as if you are having a standard menstrual cycle. So they will start by doing a treatment to encourage full discharge of the lining on CD1, then they will boost Kidney Yin, move and nourish blood in the first half. Then they will move energy around the ovaries mid cycle and then promote kidney yang to support production of progesterone.

Acupuncture works in this way by regulating the natural hormones. It is said that our hormonal systems become clunkier and rusty as we get older. Acupuncture just puts more oil into the system and gets the cycle moving again.

I find Western Medicine particularly disheartening that they will write off a man or a woman fertility wise with a few tests. Acupuncture is far more dynamic. There is always a treatment.

However, I would bank on 6 months of treatment. It is not a quick fix. And be sure to ask loads of lifestyle advice - what to eat, what to avoid, keeping warm etc.

Report back with your progress!!!


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## Briss

Jazzbird, unfortunately we do not know when my mum went into menopause because she had her uterus removed after the latest mc (they could not stop the bleeding) so I can only judge by my mum's mother. My mum had my brother at 34 and after than she got pregnant again very quickly (obviously all natural) but mc. I am seeing my friend and her new born this Saturday. I think I am going to get them some cute dress or something like that. I have no idea what new-borns need and will try to stay for as little as possible without being rude. 

someone on B&b just offered her unsolicited advice that I should consider surrogacy?? some people just really surprise me I am sure she did not mean to hurt me but it hurts like hell. I have unsubscribed from most threads already except for this one of course that's my only refuge, this kind of advice from a LTTTer just makes me feel like I am beyond LTTTC


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## Blythe

Briss - I'm sorry about that comment.its difficult as people are trying to say stuff that might help [but not great when you were not even asking]. Like all of us LTTTC's i am sure you have considered everything and are doing what is right for you at this time. 3 years is a long long time but many women go on for much longer and get there.you WILL be one of them. 

a nice little outfit for when they are 6 months + might be nice.for the first 6 months they just live in baby grows which I'm sure she will have stacks of. i hope it will be ok. when i went to see my friend with her 11 week old girl she just sat there breastfeeding and talking constantly about the baby. I could have stayed longer to be honest but really we run out of things to sayit wasn't upsetting though

hey I'm glad to read your acne is clearing uplast thing you need at the moment! i too have been struggling with my weightit almost impossible for me to tackle it when its so cold though. I have read though that sugar makes the lining of eggs very tuffi did read that from a credible source but it still did not deter me eating chocolate everyday and taking sugar in my breakfast tea!


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## Briss

Blythe, thanks, maybe I am just too sensitive but such "advice" just sounds to me like people do not believe I have any chances and obviously that's my fear as well but I cant even say it out loud so hearing it from somebody else hurts :( I know I have to carry on, what else am I to do?

6 months +, that's great thanks.

sticking with the diet was just so hard, basically every minute of every day was a struggle so I cant even motivate myself to do it again even though I know it's working. I am left with less than 50% of my wardrobe ... :( the rest just doesn't fit again.

I read that sugar is aging but did not know about the lining of eggs. how do you stop craving sugar? I friend said after giving birth she stopped craving sugar. I wonder if this may work for me some day.


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## gingmg

I heard this too about sugar, don't remember where. I've been trying to pay attention to labels and limit what I buy that contains sugar. It's amazing how hard that is, but I'm slowly trying. I lost 1 pound on weight watchers this week, so starting to feel more hopeful that in another month or two I will feel more like my old self.


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## Briss

the urologist said my Dh has a "very fine pair of balls"&#8230;. nice to know :) men! they cant go on without their ego being constantly pampered. but tbh I am relieved cos I could not tell whether his balls are normal or not. Dh only produced one SA result and completely failed to show the doc his entire history which I so carefully compiled for him, not surprisingly the doc said with his sperm I should have been pregnant by now. really?? how?? Dh did not want me there which is a shame cos I could have asked all the right questions and provide all the information. Anyway, DH spent a small fortune on some basic hormone blood tests and another SA (which will have 100% alcohol content cos he showed up at 5 am drunk!). I really hope I can join them next time when they will be discussing the results cos I have much more to say on the matter. the urologist seems to be thinking it's my fault cos he said he will definitely try to improve his SA but he is not sure he can help us get pregnant.


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## Briss

a colleague just had her first and most likely last NHS funded IVf/ICSI at Guys. She is 38/39 and overweight but her FSH is normal, her DH is seriously obese and has motility issues. It worked for them first time. and they also have a frozen embryo as well. obviously thrilled for her but cant help feeling very sorry for myself


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## gingmg

When I met my RE last week I had all kinds of questions related to lifestyle, supplements, diet, exercise, ect.... You want to know what she said? None of it matters. She said it can be normal for it to take multiple IVFs in order to get it to work. So frustrating!!!


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## Jazzbird

Briss - I don't understand your urologist. How can he say that with your OH SA results? 

I find that hard to understand. Did he mention alcohol? Is this what your OH has told you he said - or did you hear it firsthand?

Hugs to you Briss. Seems so unfair.

Xxx


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## Briss

gingmg, It's really frustrating but I tend to agree. lots of people around drinking and smoking and happily get pregnant while many healthy people cannot. I've been practically a nun for over a year and it did not help anything. 

Jazzbird, I was not there so it's what my DH said. how can you get pregnant with 7 mil? He did ask DH about alcohol and when my DH said he drinks about 10-20 pints a week the urologist did not say anything. When my DH mentioned that he was fasting (starving more like!) when he was losing weight the urologist just said that he needs to eat. I am just hoping that this is the initial interview and he can say something more meaningful once he gets all the results. I also hope I am going to be there to ask the right questions. but it does look to me like a boys club where men protect each other and blame women for everything.


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## Blythe

gingmg said:


> when i met my re last week i had all kinds of questions related to lifestyle, supplements, diet, exercise, ect.... You want to know what she said? None of it matters. She said it can be normal for it to take multiple ivfs in order to get it to work. So frustrating!!!

i knew it!!!!!!


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## Blythe

Briss said:


> the urologist said my Dh has a "very fine pair of balls". nice to know :) men! they cant go on without their ego being constantly pampered. but tbh I am relieved cos I could not tell whether his balls are normal or not. Dh only produced one SA result and completely failed to show the doc his entire history which I so carefully compiled for him, not surprisingly the doc said with his sperm I should have been pregnant by now. really?? how?? Dh did not want me there which is a shame cos I could have asked all the right questions and provide all the information. Anyway, DH spent a small fortune on some basic hormone blood tests and another SA (which will have 100% alcohol content cos he showed up at 5 am drunk!). I really hope I can join them next time when they will be discussing the results cos I have much more to say on the matter. the urologist seems to be thinking it's my fault cos he said he will definitely try to improve his SA but he is not sure he can help us get pregnant.


oh Briss - i felt wretched when i left worki turned on my phone and saw your post about 'balls'it really has made my day. I can picture you in the meeting with your list of questions.putting them right!!

i look forward to hearing what the results are from the tests..lets hope for some positive news and build on what seems to have been a good start with this urologist.


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## Juniperjules

Jazzbird.... You MUST stay on this thread... For as long as u want to!!! We're like a little sisterhood on this thread & none of us regulars are ever gonna have a problem with u being here... I mean seriously.. I'm not even ttc now & I'm still here!! : ) 

This is rushed so sorry for no other individual replies.. But my update is that I have been EXTREMELY anxious and stressed out for a week. My OH suddenly decided he can't live without me & wants me back.... I have more than 20 text msgs & emails from him since Tuesday... It's doing my head in... To the point that I really can't cope. I've eaten 2 meals since Tuesday... I've lost 3kgs in the past 2wks altogether... I am so anxious that I feel nauseous most of the day... 

We have so much history, some of it lovely & amazing... But in recent years pretty horrible. He was seeing someone else... On & off for maybe 18mths.. But now after a month apart he wants everything to go back to normal & do IVF!!!!???? 

Meanwhile I have this completely amazing & adorable other man who has made me feel like a new person... 

I'm sooooo f*#*#d up right now that it isn't funny. I've asked OH to give me some time with no contact but he is ignoring that... He sounds so desperate & sad... It's breaking my heart.. And I love him. I really do... But it's a different love now I think... Like how I love my sister & want to protect her & make things right for her. I don't think it's a romantic love anymore??!!?? Does that make sense at all??? 

And meanwhile this other guy P, is aware of everything.. He wants to know & is being understanding. He said he knew this was going to happen & wouldn't b easy. He surprises me everyday with how he is... I have NO idea why he wants me & all my mess???? That's how I feel. Like an emotional mess. 

On a lighter note.. Still no bonking.. But it's my 39th birthday today & were going out with friends from work tonite-... And I might just decide to give myself a birthday present that he can share with me... Screw it!!.. Im fed up always playing it safe with my life!! ; )


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## Jazzbird

Juniper - happy birthday my lovely! I hope you have a fantastic day and we shall expect a bonking update!!!

I really feel for you with the dilemma you're in. On the one hand you have this exciting sexy new man who is setting your world or loins on fire but on the other hand you have this 20 year history/marriage that has been through a pretty rough patch of late. 

I think you need time - at least a few months. Am I right in remembering that your OH asked for the same whilst he started a relationship with someone else? 

You must ignore his texts/calls and do what is right for you. 

Your OH seems like a commitmentphobe - running away when you are moving towards ivf and desperately begging you to come back when you are moving on. Has he always had shades of this tendency?

I'm so sorry you are going through this: I think whilst your OH is not intentionally cruel, his actions are cruel. 

Can you ever trust him NOT to do this again? Would you always be looking over your shoulder ...? Does he really want kids because to me it seems he is scared (but I don't know him so can't really comment).

It's an impossible situation - you have no idea how this new relationship will pan out but what is your gut feeling? Do you want the same things? Does this guy want to settle down etc? I know it's too early to ask these questions but perhaps he has hinted ...

Does your OH know about the new guy? Is this why he is rushing back to you? 

I have been so excited to read about this new guy and I'm sad that your OH seems to want to destroy your happiness. I have always said to my hubs that I would happily let him go if he was unhappy or wanted to be with someone else. 

I think you need to ask for a few months separation to clear your mind and have some mind blowing sex! Because if you don't, we'll be sad! Your stories brighten up this thread!!!!

Take some time and focus on you. You will come to the answer away from the noise , if you don't know it already. And remember there is no such thing as a wrong option, they are just different choices.

And remember we are all here for you, eagerly awaiting the next instalment! It's better than eastenders (soap opera).

Hugs xxx


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## Blythe

Juniperjules said:


> Jazzbird.... You MUST stay on this thread... For as long as u want to!!! We're like a little sisterhood on this thread & none of us regulars are ever gonna have a problem with u being here... I mean seriously.. I'm not even ttc now & I'm still here!! : )
> 
> This is rushed so sorry for no other individual replies.. But my update is that I have been EXTREMELY anxious and stressed out for a week. My OH suddenly decided he can't live without me & wants me back.... I have more than 20 text msgs & emails from him since Tuesday... It's doing my head in... To the point that I really can't cope. I've eaten 2 meals since Tuesday... I've lost 3kgs in the past 2wks altogether... I am so anxious that I feel nauseous most of the day...
> 
> We have so much history, some of it lovely & amazing... But in recent years pretty horrible. He was seeing someone else... On & off for maybe 18mths.. But now after a month apart he wants everything to go back to normal & do IVF!!!!????
> 
> Meanwhile I have this completely amazing & adorable other man who has made me feel like a new person...
> 
> I'm sooooo f*#*#d up right now that it isn't funny. I've asked OH to give me some time with no contact but he is ignoring that... He sounds so desperate & sad... It's breaking my heart.. And I love him. I really do... But it's a different love now I think... Like how I love my sister & want to protect her & make things right for her. I don't think it's a romantic love anymore??!!?? Does that make sense at all???
> 
> And meanwhile this other guy P, is aware of everything.. He wants to know & is being understanding. He said he knew this was going to happen & wouldn't b easy. He surprises me everyday with how he is... I have NO idea why he wants me & all my mess???? That's how I feel. Like an emotional mess.
> 
> On a lighter note.. Still no bonking.. But it's my 39th birthday today & were going out with friends from work tonite-... And I might just decide to give myself a birthday present that he can share with me... Screw it!!.. Im fed up always playing it safe with my life!! ; )

i could have told you that he would be back a couple of weeks agoin fact i was tempted but thought it would put a dampers on things. Men always come back when its too late. What you are doing now is mourning the loss of a great love in your lifeno wonder you feel confused.

i have been in a very similar situation [on micro scale as we were not together for many years] and it was a terrible few weeks..i had got together with someone who i felt safe with, who cared for me, maybe he didn't excite me in the same way as the man who i was still desperately in love with at the time [or so i thought] but i felt content. well over the confusing period when i was together with my new man [DH] i did sleep with the exciting/big love man who had put me through hell. i thankfully stayed with the new man. 

over those weeks my love for the old one turned into a love you have for a family memberno longer a romantic love but a caring love. it was awfulhe was so proud but so hurt and he used to call me in tears. Over the years i have turned into the one that got away :) You see its all about self preservation and i never really thought it would kick in as i had humiliated myself so many times by dealing with his poor behaviour and he always took me for granted but he was a brilliant person under all his issues. I spent so long making sure everyone else was happy then forgot about myself.not good.

So i guess what i am saying is that you will be ok.put yourself first and just let this ride out. I can guarantee that your DH will be ok tooin fact i predict he will be with someone else within 6 months [actually this applies whether you get back together with him or not [which you are not going to do so it does not matter]. He may put you through it in the meantime.you know what i am almost tempted to advise you to get back with him because if you do that would turn the line you have put under this relationship from pencil to thick black permanent marker pen.

I believe the new man is the one you will be with for many christmas' yet to come.

BE STRONG and put yourself first.

HAPPY BIRTHDAY LOVELY LADY :flower::hugs:


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## Briss

Jazzbird, I totally agree with juniper, please stay on this thread! btw, do you carry on with acu and if so what points do you needle? 


Juniper, you poor thing! I just knew it! Your OH really loves you but he is just so messed up. You are in such a difficult situation, with new relationship it's really hard to say so quickly whether it's for real you will have to take time to figure it out but it might be your future if the guy has real feelings for you. Your OH made his choice he needs to back off now and give you some space (it does not look like he is going to do that though). I'd be interested to know whether he would have returned if you did not have anyone else? is it a real thing or is he just jealous and is being possessive (like a normal man)? there is a more positive way to look at the situation, it's a nice feeling on your 39 birthday to be torn apart by two men who both want you and cant seem to be able to live without you :) Happy Birthday!!

btw, I had long term relationship with a wonderful guy but gradually and similar to Blythe's my love turned into a love you have for a family member and I cheated on him with the guy who was really good at sex but a total ass, which I realised much later. The old guy loved me so much and was so gracious that he accepted me back but while I had very strong feelings for him and really cared I just could not make love to him anymore, it was like nothing I did not feel a thing and I just knew it then that I cannot live my life like this with something important missing even though I really cared for him and still do (the irony being that I ended with my DH who is not into sex at all.) that nice guy recovered from a broken heart in a few years got married and has 3 children.... that could have been me


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## Jazzbird

Hey Briss - I will defo stay on this thread. You gals are so fun and sweet - I honestly can't imagine not posting and reading. You have become like proper gal pals. The sort you can have a good ole gossip and heart to heart.

Interesting to talk about a relationship turning to friendship ... I worry this has what has happened to me and OH sometimes. It's hard to know when it's "normal" (hate using that word because normal is different for everyone). I know how intoxicating the first throes of romance is and inevitably that does fade ... But how do you know whether you're just friends or something deeper??? I think it's one of life's mysteries. There is a theory in evolutionary psychology that we are programmed to fall in love long enough to conceive and raise a child til it can fend for itself. I think 7 years is the timeframe. It certainly helps to think that our biology drives us more than we give it credit for.

But Juniper, only you know deep down what is right for you. Better to regret something you did than something you didn't do. Not sure that helps but perhaps you can apply that to your situ. You already know the outcome with your husband ... Would that make you happy long term? Or is life too short not to take a risk?! 

Briss - I spent so many months reading about fertility and TCM - I have no clue about pregnancy and TCM. I was still talking you gui wan to support kidney yang until I looked up the ingredients and found one in the particular formula I took that is to be used with caution in pregnancy. Now I'm off herbs and OH is terrified to do acu on me in case something goes wrong. I may go and see my old acupuncturist for some guidance. At the moment I'm feeling constant period cramps and the odd wave of nausea but I think overall the thinking is to nourish blood (bl 18) as the embryo consumes so much of your blood to grow, support yang to keep uterus warm (kid 3) and to support spleen qi (st36) to hold the embryo. If there is morning sickness - even technique on pc6 - But don't quote me on that I need to read up.

How are you gals this weekend? I'm having a relaxing one, washing clothes, cleaning and watching dexter and walking dead - maybe even gravity at the cinema.

Sending lots of virtual hugs your way. You gals are the best!


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## Briss

Jazzbird, thanks. if your DH does not want to needle you, can you just do acu pressure on these point or moxa? is this going to have the same effect? 

Blythe, are you off to Brussels? I am sure your presentation will be great and the nato delegation will be impressed! good luck! btw, I could really use some of their fruit beer, love this stuff! 

afm, was out shopping for a present for the newborn and ended up having a meltdown at the store, had to drag myself home. I just wanted to buy a very pretty dress and it just struck me how many times I was out shopping for baby stuff for my friends' babies over last few years. Will I ever be buying cute dresses for my own daughter? by the time I got home I was in quite a state, my DH did not see it coming and did not find anything better to do than have sex with me :) men are so hopeless with emotional support, never mind, sex is as good as anything and I know he means well. It actually worked cos I am feeling a bit stronger to face the new mum with her new-born. But I told myself this is it, until I am definitely pregnant and at least in the second trimester I am not going to any more baby parties, I am really not strong enough.

also, started spotting :( what the hell it's only 12 DPO! these bloody IVF meds are totally messing up my cycle. btw I tested just because spotting is very unusual for me and obviously bfn.


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## Jazzbird

I'm sorry Briss - I really feel for you. I can't imagine how you keep getting the strength to go on. It seems so desperately unfair. There are women with really poor odds who magically go on to conceive after many years. I'm praying that it will happen to you. 

I love how your OH whips out his tackle when he doesn't know what to do. But a good bit of non conception rumpy pumpy will do you good. 

Xxx


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## Briss

and AF just turned up! giving me a 23 day cycle and 11 day LH - that's the first time in my life my LH is this short. I am supposed to be leaving but I am in tears again, wtf!!


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## Jazzbird

Do you have to go? Can't you say you're unwell? I don't think it's good for you to go. You need time to rest. 

It is first cycle after ivf drugs. Hopefully your cycle will normalise again. 11 days LP is not too bad. I think ivf stims are heating and use up yin which may make you ovulate early. 

I'm hoping your cycle can settle down next month. 

Xxx


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## gingmg

Juniper- First of all, HAPPY BIRTHDAY!!! Of coarse your OH wants you back now, just when you are able to move on. In this situation you have to follow your heart. Put yourself first and do what makes you happy. Is he going to be seeing someone else in another few months? Did the other person end it and now he wants to work it out? Did he hear you had moved on? I understand feeling torn because you have such a long history and have shared so much. But would you always wonder what would have happened with this new guy? I say put your OH on hold, and give yourself some time to really figure out what you want.

Jazzbird- please stay, we are all like family here:)

Briss- sorry about AF, totally sucks. This is all so unfair.

Blythe-how are you?

BBlisss-HI

AFM- I think I am depressed and I don't know how to fix this. I'm going to do that mind/body program but it doesn't start until jan. I'm trying to loose a little bit of weight because I think some of this is that I don't physically feel good. My wife and I have not been in the greatest of spaces either lately and it's hard to get back to where we used to be. She is feeling inadequate that she isn't working a lot right now, so is a bit depressed herself and I'm stressed that everything is falling on me. I don't even go out with friends anymore, because I don't want them to see that I have gained weight. She wants me to go to therapy, but I'm not interested in going to therapy. I know what I need and it's not sitting in a room talking about how I feel. I need to do yoga everyday, it's that simple, but I can't seem to start moving.


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## Blythe

Gingmg - I'm so sorry to hear how you are feeling. I do totally relate to the weight/depression thing and avoiding the very things that can helpi.e. hanging out with friends and talking and laughing. It must be difficult for your wifeits crap feeling inadequate. Feeling good about our bodies as women can make such a massive difference to day to day life. I cannot sit down without adjusting myself and pulling jumpers over my tummy. i know only 7/8 lbs would make an incredible difference but its the motivation. You have stopped smoking so that is the biggest battle but certainly i found after giving up i ate more. You have done something incredible this year which will have a positive impact on the rest of your life.

I am very intrigued by this mind/body programme you are starting. Its great that you have taken this positive step to make things better. January is not so long to wait.


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## Blythe

Briss said:


> Jazzbird, thanks. if your DH does not want to needle you, can you just do acu pressure on these point or moxa? is this going to have the same effect?
> 
> Blythe, are you off to Brussels? I am sure your presentation will be great and the nato delegation will be impressed! good luck! btw, I could really use some of their fruit beer, love this stuff!
> 
> afm, was out shopping for a present for the newborn and ended up having a meltdown at the store, had to drag myself home. I just wanted to buy a very pretty dress and it just struck me how many times I was out shopping for baby stuff for my friends' babies over last few years. Will I ever be buying cute dresses for my own daughter? by the time I got home I was in quite a state, my DH did not see it coming and did not find anything better to do than have sex with me :) men are so hopeless with emotional support, never mind, sex is as good as anything and I know he means well. It actually worked cos I am feeling a bit stronger to face the new mum with her new-born. But I told myself this is it, until I am definitely pregnant and at least in the second trimester I am not going to any more baby parties, I am really not strong enough.
> 
> also, started spotting :( what the hell it's only 12 DPO! these bloody IVF meds are totally messing up my cycle. btw I tested just because spotting is very unusual for me and obviously bfn.

Briss - I'm so sorry for AF. This is the hardest thing ever. It relentless, and dark and lonely and exhausting and just so heartbreaking. all we can do is stand up tall and keep moving forward&#8230;

i remember when i started this 'journey' that i used to see what month i would have baby if i conceived that month&#8230;i never do that now. It seems like an impossible dream. But i find so much hope from the stories i have read about women who have had the most tortuous struggles and they have succeeded. I must keep believing it will happen and i do truly believe it will happen for us all. 



i completed my course today in corset making [ribbon corsets]. Having put it on against my body it really accentuates my weight gain which i usually mask with loose clothing&#8230;.i have to be honest when I'm skinny i have a boy like body and i love it! Now I'm bigger i have hips [but no boobs really] and i really don't like it at all.

I'm so sorry that AF is here. As Jazzbird has said don't worry too much about the length bit. its the drugs working through your body. i would be surprised if your cycle is not back to normal next month&#8230;

you are a very strong lady briss and i value your words very much. Hang on in there and keep being strong.


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## Jazzbird

Gingmg - sorry too your are feeling low. Think yoga is wonderful too but also hard to motivate yourself to do it. Will your wife do it with you for support? Always good to do it with someone so that if one of you lacks motivation then the other is there for encouragement.

Hugs to you too xxx


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## BBbliss

Juniperjules, happy birthday!!! And take this birthday as a NEW Birth of self! Think about what you want from here on. Don't go back because of history...they ALL come back! Remember what your "normal" was, normal sometimes does not equal happy. Build a new normal for yourself, one that you are valued, cherished and loved everyday! That should be your new normal. 

Briss, I'm sorry af has come early, it is just the IVF stuff still in your body. I hope you didn't have to go to that party. Do what makes you feel good. Don't fake it. Be true to yourself and put yourself first.

Jazzbird, I hope you are well and happy. You'll bring good luck to all of us :)

Blythe, how nice you finished your corset course. I'm still so impressed. Good luck on your presentation and don't forget to have a little fun too ;)

Ging, you've done so good on your smoking and its the hardest thing to let go of from what I hear. You are a champ! I know you are feeling down now but you'll figure it out. You are not one of those people that sits there and let things happen to them. I'm sure this time is here to teach you something... And that could just be so you learn to give yourself a little more love. The time you take to go to yoga will do that. Give yourself a big hug :)

Afm, starting to have second thoughts on TTC. I have had so many obstacles its making me take a different approach. I'm back to my two cappuccinos in the morning, I went and got my Botox, lol well I'm also having so many problems with my 16 year-old that it makes me want to give up having more children. Teenagers can be soooo difficult. It's even caused me and DF to have a bad fight. I'm not having a good wknd it's the art Basel in Miami beach, my very favorite event of the year and I didn't even want to go. Tomorrow is the last day and I will go or I know I'll regret. 

Big hugs to all you amazing girls!


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## Briss

I went to the party i do not why but I just cant let people down, they are my good friends and I do not have that many left, I've lost most of my friends to TTC. no one can relate to the pain I constantly live with. Now I agree it was a huge mistake it was so painful I did my best and smiled and was happy for her but I felt like my heart was bleeding and my every organ was bleeding inside I wanted to just end it all, had a bit of a cry in the toilet but I do not think anyone noticed. seeing a mother and a baby everyone is so happy, everyone talks about baby stuff and how hard it is to be pregnant and first months after the birth, no one has any idea what the real pain feels like. the minute I was out I broke down, was crying all the way home on the train and tube did not care about people looking I could not stop the hysteric, got home and saw hubby with a bottle of beer ... I cannot remember all that followed but it was a complete melt down, i remember thinking of ending my life at one point. I do feel that there is just too much pain in my life and has been for several years, its getting worse. I do not think I can cope, I am really not that strong. having a child would give my life a meaning and give me strength to carry on but clearly it's not happening. I am trying to keep a balance but one little thing can just set me off like 11 day LH, completely screwy, the bloody clinic totally screwed my body, I had perfect LH that's probably one thing that was good and reliable about my cycle and they screwed it. From where I am it does look like things are just getting worse. anything i do just affects my cycle in a bad way and does not bring me closer to pregnancy. all seems hopeless. I should not have agreed to stim IVf


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## Jazzbird

Briss darling - I can't believe you went. You are strong. I certainly would not have gone. Of course you would break down. It's only natural. Do you have any close friends who know what you are going through? Can you go and speak to them face to face?

There is the infertility network in UK which runs support groups. This might sound like your idea of hell but I think you should look into it. I think it's so hard when it feels like just you. If you met up with lots of other women you would feel a sense of togetherness. 

Please don't end it all. You are a lovely, sweet lady that has a lot to offer the world. 

Do you have anything outside OH or friends - like a hobby or a real interest? Something you like doing? Could you sign up for some classes?

Again it's probably the last thing you want to do - you probably want to shut the world out but you need to find another focus. I'm not in any way suggesting you give up in having kids but you need to do something positive with your life which brings you some joy.

What about a holiday? Skiing? Something fun and romantic? You need to create things to look forwards to. Pamper yourself. 

Briss we love you. Many women who thought they had no hope do go on to conceive. It can happen - so please do not give up. But I think some time away from this horrendous rollercoaster will do you the world of good. 

BBbliss - sorry you are having a crappy weekend. We all want to be parents but I think we often don't move past the baby/toddler phase in our minds. I remember how angry I always felt in my teens, mainly towards my mum. I'm not even sure why I felt that way. She is a wonderful mum and I love her more than anything. It must be so hard to be on the receiving end but looking back it was a very confusing time. I didn't know who I really was, felt like I didn't fit in - it was a very painful time. Perhaps your daughter is going through pain? I don't think teenagers mean to be the way they are - they are just confused. 

You sound like such a lovely mum, I hope you find a way through this. It won't be long before she spreads her wings and she'll come back to you and love you more than ever. 

Hugs to you too. 

And Gingmg - BBbliss is right - you have done AMAZINGLY well giving up smoking. You must treat yourself.

Hoping for some miracles on this thread. You ladies deserve it!


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## Blythe

Briss - its bullshit. I'm so very sorry you are going through such a terrible time with it all. You have just gone through 2 IVFs&#8230;.these have taken a huge emotional toll on your body and mind. You have gone through an enormously stressful time and things will get better for you. You are still in the IVF fog but you will come out of it.

it will get better i promise you x


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## Briss

BBbliss, I feel for you, teenagers are so hard to deal with. I try not to recall what I was up to when I was that age and how I treated my mum. I am just so ashamed of everything I said to her and did, I really just want to forget the entire period it's like it was not even me. 

gingmg, I hope that mind/body program will help you cos depression is so evil, it takes over your body and mind. Sometimes I wonder if I might be depressed but just do not realise it. I totally understand the desire to get into shape. I felt so good about myself when I lost weight and am so sorry I could not make it last. I might try doing that again because I definitely have at least 2-3 months before my body can recover from IVf and we can try again. Looking good just helps me face people and get through the day. I also really want to get into the habit of doing bit of yoga daily. please do share any advice if you manage to get yourself motivated I could definitely use some. 

Jazzbird, I am not strong, quite the opposite I am weak and simply cant say no to people even if it means I am going to suffer. I just know now that I cannot be in any proximity to new mums and babies, I will have to cut my friends off. There are about 2 people in London and a few more abroad who either do not have children and are not interested or TTC just like me so i will have to limit my circle to these few people. I am not going to have any Christmas this year, I do not feel like celebrating a birth of somebody else's baby while I am being denied one. 

re hobby, I do not have one and I cant really find it in me to spend any minute of any day on something that does not have a potential to bring me closer to having a child. I am very focused on getting pregnant. My job only makes sense cos it will pay for potentially 20 IVFs etc and anything else fits into my life only if it's relevant to getting me pregnant. I am very conscious of the fact that I only have a few years to achieve this. I am perfectly aware that my Dh and I can live quite comfortable without children, we would have plenty of money to spend on whatever we want and we would travel and life would be comfortable maybe even exciting but very pointless and a total waste. I know many people live like that and they are fine. I wish I could feel like that but I cant. 

I am feeling more like myself today. Hubby was very supportive. Am trying to pick myself up cos will ahve to face people tomorrow. Still, stim IVF was a huge mistake, I regret it bitterly. cant get over 11 day LP, this has never ever happened before even when i had lap my cycle was not screwed like that. these meds really messed up my cycle big time. I am now thinking that with my natural IVF and chemical, I started spotting on about 10 DPO and if I was not on progesterone it's possible that I would have got AF early just like this cycle and the embryo would not have had a chance. there is just something not right with the meds and my body, they do not mix well because I never spot in TWW when i am not on meds.

Blythe, according to the guardian the national security agency has access to any free email address like gmail, hotmail etc and can copy/keep all the personal data including any deleted emails and any spam. Officially this has not been confirmed but many people seem to believe it's the case. the Guardian has published a lot on this topic. The forum is likely to keep your ip address whenever you post here for which your internet provider can link to your address/ property /office etc. but your colleagues/work will not be able to access it readily. The government is sure to have an internet surveillance program aiming to monitor and record electronic communications and link them to a person. i do not know the scope of this program in the UK but there has been some leaks in the press about the similar program in the US. https://www.theguardian.com/world/the-nsa-files

btw, how's Belgium beer? I had quite a few glasses of red wine last night.

well done on completing your course in corset making. I love corsets but I agree with extra bits hanging out I would not even dream of trying it on right now. Even when I'm skinny i do not have a boy like body unfortunately cos my hips are just big even with no fat on them. I remember when I was younger every one used to say that my body shape is perfect for baby making :(


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## gingmg

Ladies, I think we have all hit some sort of block, bottom, or something- and I think the good news here is that we are the brink of change. I think we have to remember too that the days are getting shorter right now and it's sort of normal to feel somewhat isolated or depressed during this time of year, in addition to all of the other stressors we each have. I think we can help each other out of it. My wife made us walk 4 miles yesterday and today and I already feel a little better. 

Briss- I am so sorry. I can hear how much pain you are in. I think finding a hobby is a great idea, maybe even just walking to get the endorphins going without anything too strenuous. I wish there was a way we could motivate each other to do yoga, because I know that would help us both. 

Blythe- I didn't realize how stressed you feel because of your job. Maybe your DH is right, if it's taking that much of a toll, it might not be a good fit.

BBliss- I'm sorry you are having a tough time with one of your daughters. I wouldn't go back to being a teenager for all the money in the world, what an awful/awkward time.


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## Juniperjules

I must be an exception to the rule- I remember my teenage years with fondness... For me my memories are of being free from responsibilities, talking on the phone to girlfriends every nite after school, spending all weekend with them, school holidays where 6 weeks felt like an eternity, shutting myself in my bedroom for hours quite happy with my own company listening to music on old vinyl records.... How I wish my life were that simple now!! My mum has said that I went thru a moody stage where I barely left my room except to eat & go to school.. But I don't remember that.. : ) 

Briss, I feel ur pain & hopelessness.. U mentioned for a moment actually wanting to end it all.. But I know that deep inside u know that life is still worth living. What ur feeling is situational depression, it's a direct result of wot u are going through, and what u have been through.. The upside of this is that as soon as things turn around & something great happens, then those negative feelings will disappear. You are still only 37yrs old, your journey may b difficult & painful right now, but keep fighting. My mum took 5 years to have me & then 6 yrs to have my sister.. No one knew why (although couldve very possibly been my dads drinking- he never was checked out back then!!). 

Blythe, perhaps u should think seriously about ur DH request to change jobs. We spend too much time at work to have it be something that causes so much stress. If he is supportive then I'd leave if I were you? Unless u really really love the job?? 

Gingmg, I think you make an interesting observation.. How all of us girls have ended up in this thread, all with different situations & life's.. But all still kind of connected in someway.. I was just thinking how this thread would be a great idea for a movie- a chick flick about the struggles of women in their 30/40's and ttc, surviving relationships, how life affects ur real life friendships, but then manage to find support, advice & love from complete strangers who's faces you will never see.. I think it would be a great movie : ) 

BBliss, I liked wot u said about my 'normal'. I think the truth is that OH has been my normal for so long that I have learned to accept things that are unacceptable bcos I could see no alternative. I'm like a broken record saying this, but he is not a bad person, he is simple & sweet, doesn't expect much from life, & when I was in my 20's & didn't need much in life, he was all I wanted or needed. But as the years rolled on & I grew up, I don't think he did. And then when he finally decided that he wants to try & settle down & have a baby- at the same time he seems to have lost the plot & started messing around with someone else. Like Blythe spoke of her experience.. I do feel like the love we have for each other is that of family- which is why this is so hard- bcos u don't ever have to break up with family members who u love. But as far as romantic type love, I don't think we have that anymore.. And I know that all relationships should have friendship at their base- but honestly, our sex life went downhill probably in 2009.. It became infrequent, monthly maybe? Then in the last 12 mths we could go for 2-3 mths without it. Yes he would grab me & hug me & tell me he loved me so much.. He would kiss me on the lips but not the kind of kisses that I have been desperately wanting- the passion isn't there. I think I had/have decided that maybe none of that mattered- that love was all that mattered. But when I said that to my sister, my mum & my best friend in the last week- they ALL told me I was deluding myself- that without sex, we may as well be flat mates.. And not only that- if he has been playing away then clearly he is also missing that side of a relationship. 

He has no idea about this other guy. I'm seeing a psychologist today to get some help in dealing with this so that I don't have a breakdown in the process. My overall instinct is telling me that I can't go back to him, no matter how excruciating this may be, no matter how many promises he makes, or how he reacts.. Bcos ill never really know whether he can keep his word- bcos I don't think even he knows. 

I wish I could shut my eyes, open them & have it be 6 mths from now... The pain I feel in my heart right now is the worst I've ever felt. I think I know wots right for me, but I cannot handle his pain...


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## Jazzbird

Juniper - so glad you are speaking to someone although you sound like you are more certain of what you want, which is fantastic. 

I'm sorry for all the pain you feel but it will eventually pass. Every change brings an element of chaos but paves the way for new paths and new happiness. You sound like a very balanced lady, and I think you are making the right decision long term. Stay strong. Xxx


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## BBbliss

You ladies are the most loving, caring, giving group of people I could have ever found online or anywhere, and I feel blessed to have you all as part of my TTC life. I love the movie idea! My oldest is onto college to study film next year, so we hope, she has applied to NYU film school and we'll hear this Friday of her acceptance (or not). One day I can have her make our lives into a movie. There's so much here, and like ging said, we are all the brink of chance and we are all going to have out happy ending, one lucky lady at a time :)

Briss, I hope you are feeling better this morning, this was a rough weekend for you and I can hear the distress on your honest words, this is all situational like the girls have said, and it just got magnified by the hormonal changes your body just went through. I know what's like to have those thoughts and feelings but hang in there. Like the fazes of the moon our cycles bring new opportunities, moods, weakness and strengths with every turn, sometimes we just have to brace ourselves and just ride that wave. We are right here with you <3

Blythe, I truly think that if you don't desperately need the income from your job, you should quit. NOTHING is more important then your health, if this job is bringing you this much stress, it will eventually affect your health. YOU are more important! If you have your DH blessing your decision than you should consider it. 

Ging, I knew you'd see that light shining soon. I'm glad your wife is there holding your hand, that really is the beauty and magic of a true partnership, I'm learning that too

Juniper, you have a world of possibilities ahead of you, try to step back and look at it from your higher-self perspective, in fact, I think your intuition is exactly doing that and you already know what to do. This is a very difficult and painful time, but sometimes we encounter the greatest resistance just before a great shift. I think your old life didn't fulfill the purpose of your spirit anymore and life happened bringing that change for you. There are great things ahead of you. 

Jazzbird, thank you for your words, they mean a lot. You are right, It is important to remember we are not trying to make babies, we are potentially making another person, another human being. It's much more complex the we can ever anticipate. 


Well, things a better with DF. Our fight was escalating the other night and I walked out of the house crying with no shoes and started walking around my neighborhood at night like a crazy PMSing housewife. He has since apologized for not seeing things from my perspective. It's about my DD. the past few years with her have been so hard. I know she is in pain and she doesn't even know who she is. I try to remember it myself, that she was the most loving sweet little soul when she was little. Sometimes she makes it hard to even like her now. She is moody, angry and closed of. She has abandonment issues from her father never being around and that has translated into self-steam issues and with that comes disrespect, trying drugs, drinking, getting in trouble at school, etc. in four years I have switched schools four times, trying to find a better fit for her and now at the new school school she almost got suspended last week. Three thousand students for her to pick from and she becomes friends with the trouble makers. It's hard, it's sad and I have been working so hard to try to build her self-steam. Things have gotten better, the worse was 13/14 when she just hatted me. I'm trying my best, I tell her one day she will love me so much. She may not know who she is, but I know who she is, I just pray for strength and wisdom to be there for her and help her remember.


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## Blythe

Lafies thank you for your words.

:hugs: to you all


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## Briss

*Blythe*, well done! I am sure your presentation was brilliant. Did you get any nice chocolates in Brussels? I am sorry your job is so stressful. hang on in there, at least you have a cut off point in 6 months. I was bullied at work at one point when I was very junior and it was really tough cos I was working under that person doing 80 hours a week including every single weekend as I did not know how to deal with this (practically was so overworked that I had no energy to even think about it). Luckily the bully wanted to escalate the matter but it backfired for her so she left me alone. It's funny that at the time I did not even realise that it was proper bullying it's hard to define it sometimes it's just not obvious. It's so strange how property market works cos when we were renting our flat my DH was out of job and even though I am earning above the average that was not enough to qualify so we had to show our savings. I am really wondering how people live when they earn below the average. I am sure if I quit my job my DH will find it difficult to get a mortgage but then we are not even considering this at the moment. who knows how much IVf is going to cost us in the end.

*BBbliss*, I totally agree I really have no idea how I would cope with everything that life has thrown at me in the last couple of years if it was not for you ladies! Interestingly I find people who do not think it's very important to have children and who TTC thinking it's OK if it's not meant to be we will just carry on as we are quite happily &#8211; they are most likely to get pregnant. rather than people who cant see their life with no children. maybe it's the stress of it all who knows. 

I can hear you on walking out of the house, I've done that a few times, once I even stayed at the hotel just could not come back home. Quite often I find if I take a long walk (preferable with shoes on though) it helps me get out all my frustration and clear my head so only relevant and important things stay on and we can then discuss it with DH in a slightly more civilised manner. In that way he can actually hear what I have to say cos when I get emotional I can just see his face going blank and he cant perceive anything, so frustrating

You are a wonderful parent! so understanding. you daughter is very lucky! 

*Juniperjules*, thanks! when life kicks me very hard I do wonder if it's worth it any more but than again there is still time and I still have eggs so I will carry on fighting there is still hope. it's sad cos every year wasted to TTC is the year taken from my children having me around. It's unfair to them and unfair to me. 

btw, great idea re movie, I'd definitely go to see it! it's wonderful that despite all the confusion you can actually see very clearly what it is you really need. best of luck! I am so pleased you found somebody. I am hoping with all my heart that it's going to work out wonderfully. 

let us know what the psychologist is saying about all this. 

*gingmg*, I like what say about being on the brink of change, I so hope our luck is changing for the better. Jazzbird has already started it so we just need to carry on this lucky wave. I love walking and take daily lunch walks, they really help me I feel good when I walk, it's such a blissful state of mind, everything seems possible

*Jazzbird*, how are you feeling? I hope everything is going well and you are enjoying every minute of it! you totally deserve it. 

afm, off to my follow up (also known as WTF!) appointment. not even sure what to expect. I am so frustrated with the clinic. need to try and stay calm and be reasonable


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## Briss

I finally had my follow up appointment. It's all very distressing but I guess it is what it is. As expected, the clinic did not accept any responsibility for poorly managing my cycle, although they were very sorry about how things worked out and offered a tiny discount on our next treatment. As far as they are concerned everything could have turned out differently. The fact that it did not most likely mean my ovaries are not functioning normally. She could not comment on missing my egg as there was no liquid (not sure what that means) it's possible that the follicle was empty and the fact that LH started rising despite being suppressed with meds means ovaries are misbehaving. I personally do not agree. I think my ovaries are great and they did what they are supposed to as soon as they had a mature egg they released it and did not give a monkeys about the meds. I think the clinic should work with my ovaries rather than try to control them. She was puzzled by immature/poor quality eggs that were collected. my bloods were excellent and there was enough estrogen to support at least 4 mature eggs so they were sure I will have good eggs on EC. The embryologist said that the egg did not fertilise due to its poor quality but she said there is no way on knowing this it could have been the sperm or both. She said they did not want to start me off with higher doses of stims as these has been shown to affect egg quality. basically with my ovaries she recommended going back to natural/modified IVF. 

Apparently it's normal to have short LP in a failed IVf cycle. It's to do with having a disbalance between estrogen and progesterone levels. While you are on stims you produce lots of estrogen. during EC they mess up your follicles so the production of progesterone is slightly affected that's why they always supplement your LP with additional progesterone so it balances out lots of estrogen in your body. In a failed cycle where you do not have ET, they do not give any additional progesterone so you simply do not have enough naturally produced progesterone to support normal LP. I guess that explains 11 day LP. She also said it should get back to normal. I really hope so. She also said that my spotting in TWW in the natural/modified cycle was most likely to do with failing implantation rather than not having enough progesterone.


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## Kat S

Hi, everyone! Sorry I disappeared. Still doing acupuncture whenever I can afford it. This week she taped seeds to my outer ears to stimulate hormones since I'm not taking Femara or injectables for the time being. I read a study that the seed therapy is just as effective as the Femara, so we'll see. CD 11, so I'm brewing for O in a few days I hope.

Jazzbird, a quiet congrats to you! I totally understand how you feel about being afraid to believe in it. Last night I dreamed I was 16 weeks pregnant, but hadn't been to the dr because I just kept expecting to lose it. I thought "What's the point?" But at 16 weeks I realized I should believe. Then of course I woke up and ...yeah I'm not pregnant.

JJ, you've been through it with your man. Wow. Wishing you strength and clarity as you figure it all out. And I hope you had a nice birthday!


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## gingmg

Briss- glad to hear that your cycle should be getting back to normal. Sounds so frustrating to figure out the best protocol to be on for Ivf. I'm looking forward to Ivf and at the same time am scared out of mind that its going to take a few trys to get it right. I don't know if emotionally ill be strong enough.

Kat-welcome back!

Should get AF tomorrow and so long as the cysts are gone we can try again. The break was nice I guess, but ready to start injecting again. Who knew I'd feel so hopful just by stabbing myself with needles. Lost 2 pounds on weight watchers so that feels good. Almost 9 weeks no smoking. Wow, never thought I could say that without being pregnant. Have a good night ladies!


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## Kat S

Gingmg, keep us posted about AF and I hope your cysts stay away. I'd love to do injections, but they aren't covered by insurance and we just have so many expenses right now with Christmas and household needs. Maybe we can try again in February.

Congrats on the weight loss and that you stopped smoking!! All good things!


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## Briss

My Af is totally out of order. It's usually more like brown spotting by CD5. it's Cd 6 today and it's still full on bright red&#8230; I am so worried. is it going to stop? does not look like it


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## Kat S

Oh Briss, that's frustrating. I'm sure it's fine, though. Some months are not always like the others, eh? Hang in there!


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## Briss

Kat, thanks. It's just that I've never had anything like this before. It seems to be slowing down but is still red


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## Jazzbird

Hey Briss - sorry to read about your AF - must be really annoying and scary. It has to be injections etc working their way out of your system. In TCM a lot of the egg stimulating drugs burn up yin and cause heating. Bright red blood is a sign of heat in Chinese medicine. 

I am sure your cycle will normalise in the next few months. Hang in there. 

Xxx


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## Briss

Jazzbird, thank you. I have talked to a few ladies who also had failed IVF and it seems like it's fairly common to have crazy AF, all to do with the meds messing up our hormones. really frustrating, we cant even TTC naturally now as it may take 1-3 cycles to get back to normal. I am more and more convinced I need to go back to natural IVF. Thinking Germany, it's so much cheaper there


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## Jazzbird

It must be reall frustrating Briss but you never know: I have heard of ladies that fall pregnant naturally after failed ivf. Im still glad you tried it - or you would always wonder whether full stims would have been a better option. You can now go with natural with better conviction. 

Acupuncture might help your cycles normalise faster but know you've been down that road. I should stop plugging it 

Germany sounds like a good option. I always feel their healthcare is better - not based on any experience, just a random hunch.


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## Blythe

Feeling very much beyond hope now. Slowly realising that after 3 years it just is not going to happen for us. I was kidding myself. I have old eggs and hardly any there so why on earth I have continued with this nonsense I don't know. 

I will start looking at adoption in the summer if it feels right. I couldn't begin the process now because I feel so wretched about myself and weak also we need to be in a larger property and in the area we intend to adopt. 

I am also thinking about joining weightwatchers online as I am just feeling out of control. Losing weight and looking good will help me feel better about things. I have let everything go downhill in my life in my selfish pursuit of this. If there was a god why would he let people suffer for years then give them nothing at the end. Nothing infuriates me more than those god posts. I'm really pissed off with myself for wasting all this time and money on things that make no difference. 

Apologies for a thoroughly miserable post. I have no fight left for this crap


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## Briss

Blythe, it's so hard! I am sure your eggs are fine, maybe not all of them but you do drop quite a few good eggs. your charts are good and your stats are better than some younger women's. It's really frustrating that this is not happening to you. I do not understand why. although I've seen so much unjustifiable tragedy in life that I should really stop trying to see any reason in anything. one thing that is clear is that life can be unfair (years of soul searching and that's all i can come up with). you did not waste that time, you had to try everything possible to make it happen before you can consider anything else. I also regret not moving straight to IVF when I was told that with hubby's sperm that's our only option and while my FSh was OK. It's really hard when you read so many stories of over 40 who e.g. drank wheatgrass juice and got pregnant. all the million things I've done seems like a waste of at least 2 fertile years. though IVF world is not treating me well either. I think realistically you can get pregnant naturally any month. It can still happen to you but obviously there is no way of knowing whether it will happen and if so when. The most wonderful thing that should give you strength is that you have a child. you totally deserve to have more children (and if I had a child I'd definitely be trying for another) but at least there is that.

I think looking at adoption might help you take the pressure off TTC but from what I hear it's a very difficult and emotional process. It's a good thing that both your DH and you are feeling similar about adoption. I think raising an adoptive child is much harder than your own so his support will be crucial. 

I am totally with you on losing weight and looking good, it felt pretty good when I lost it and now I am back to feeling like rubbish. 

I have been busy googling infertility and suicidal thoughts... it's really bad I know but these thoughts tends to come when I am feeling very low and these days i feel low more and more often. it's so sad to read about all these women who lost their fight with infertility and lost their will to carry on living. surely god gave them more than they could handle...


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## Jazzbird

I'm so sorry Blythe how low you feel. I just want you to know I'm thinking of you and want to be there for you just like you have for me when I've been low.

Echoing what Briss says - it can still happen and perhaps pursuing adoption may take the pressure off. I sit next to a guy at work who was adopted and it's worked out so well for him and his sister. 

Life does seem so very cruel at times but you will get through this. 

Xxx


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## Jazzbird

Ps Juniper - we need a bonking update to cheer everyone up!


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## Jazzbird

Blythe - would you consider ivf?


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## Blythe

I have thought about it obsessively. We could only manage one financially and that would hit us very hard. I saw my friend yesterday and she told me her sil had just had her 5th failed IVF. I just felt so angry. It's too much of a gamble and I'm not sure I could bounce back. 

My stats are just not good enough for me to feel positive about it. If we were better off I would have done it a long time ago but this has already pushed us to the brink and I'm not sure we would survive a failed IVF. 

Thank you for your kind words earlier. :flower:

I hope you are feeling well :hugs:


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## melly2

Briss said:


> I have been busy googling infertility and suicidal thoughts... it's really bad I know but these thoughts tends to come when I am feeling very low and these days i feel low more and more often. it's so sad to read about all these women who lost their fight with infertility and lost their will to carry on living. surely god gave them more than they could handle...

Ugh! I've realized that these forums have been good for me in the way that it provides a cold dose of reality to this whole infertility issue. When I did go to the FS, of course, they're optimistic and pessimistic and would keep saying, "If only you do IVF then you definitely have a chance...otherwise, you really don't". It was like a knife being stuck in your back, made me sick to my stomach. I don't think they realized that for me, that was basically telling me that it was not possible, because I've always been very hesitant with IVF. 

I have given IVF more thought, and been watching your progress and others on the board. To be honest, I'm even more hesitant now. It appears to me, that most women have to do at least a few rounds of IVF before one is successful. That said, I have new insurance which starts at the beginning of the year, and it will pay for my IVF. I just don't know if I have the gumption or will to suffer through it. I don't want to get my hopes up and then have them dashed before my eyes. 

My husband and I talked about this on our recent vacation, but never came to a conclusion. There is a side of me that just needs to accept it and move on with my life, but I just don't think my husband is on board with this line of thinking. He said he wants to continue to try until we're 40. I, on the other hand, said 38, which I will be in a couple months.


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## gingmg

Blythe- I am so sorry you feel this way right now. I don't know what to say to make you feel better, but I just wanted you to know i am thinking about you and that we are all here for support anytime you need us. It still can happen. I agree with Jazzbird, maybe pursuing adoption would take some of the pressure off. Give yourself some time to think about it, you don't have to decide now. We all are going to have our babies one way or another, I just believe that.

We could be weight watcher buddies online! I am determined to loose this weight and get back to my old skinny self.


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## Briss

*melly*, I am sorry my depressing journey is putting you off IVF. I have to say that I am not a great example because with my high FSH I am just not suited for IVf. A colleague of mine just had her 1st IVf at Guy's (also male issues but normal FSH) and got pregnant, very straightforward, 8 eggs, 6 fertilised, 2 great blasts transferred and one frozen &#8211; that's what most people get. She does not know that I've had 2 failed attempts because I did not share it with anyone except my mum so she keeps telling me how wonderful IVf is&#8230; if we had good sperm I'd most likely got pregnant naturally and if I had normal FSH we'd most likely got pregnant with IVF. low sperm count + high FSH = just pure shitty luck. My FS told me we are unlikely to be successful with IVf that's why the NHS refused funding. I should have agreed to do IVF while my FSH was still within norm. as you know I was also set against IVF that's why it took so long to accept it. it's very possible that if I agreed to do IVF when I was offered the chance two years ago I'd be TTC No. 2 now. If your FSH is below 15 you should be a good candidate for IVf. If it's above 15, based on my experience, I'd suggest natural IVF but be prepared that it may take several attempts. I am not trying to convince you for or against IVF, it's a very personal decision. I am just setting out facts as I see them. 

We are seeing our urologist on Monday and I hope he can suggest some treatment for DH but if nothing can be done to improve his SA we are back to IVF. nothing else to do for us but to go through as many as it takes. I hope I will be able to control my emotions better next time. It's similar to natural TTC actually, at the beginning you are all excited and hopeful so obviously AF is a real blow but as time goes by you learn to expect AF and even though I still have a cry on Cd1 it's not near as bad as the meltdown I went through with my second IVF. So I now know that it will take a while so hopefully i will be calmer with my next IVF. 

if IVf is an option for you I'd not wait until you are 40. I'd go for it as early as you can. having said that your DH's SA is improving tremendously so who knows he may get within normal range in a few months. I really hope you will be able to get pregnant naturally and soon!


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## Blythe

gingmg said:


> Blythe- I am so sorry you feel this way right now. I don't know what to say to make you feel better, but I just wanted you to know i am thinking about you and that we are all here for support anytime you need us. It still can happen. I agree with Jazzbird, maybe pursuing adoption would take some of the pressure off. Give yourself some time to think about it, you don't have to decide now. We all are going to have our babies one way or another, I just believe that.
> 
> We could be weight watcher buddies online! I am determined to loose this weight and get back to my old skinny self.

yes yes - i want to be your WW buddy online :) i am going to look into it tomorrowi was thinking about delaying until jan but then i thought i might just get cracking on it straight awayi can still have a pig out here and there but maybe monitoring my intake will help me not eat until i am sick.


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## Blythe

Briss - thank you very much for your words the other dayi always take comfort from what you say to me. 

with regard to the suicide stuff that is online it is unbearable to have such dark thoughts and i can understand that some cannot see a way out. I believe it is particularly difficult to rationalise our thoughts and feelings after any medicated cyclesthe hormonal balance is so delicate and has such a profound effect on our moods and ability to process stuff mentally that i wonder how women do go on. I mentioned in another post that friend's SIL has just gone through her 5th failed IVF. She does not want to spend any time with the extended family over christmas as there are new babies amongst their number.

My friend simply could not understand why she would want to make her husband [friends brother] stay away from the family. my mate is incredible.very caring but does not feel the need to have children. she said why doesn't she just adoptin fact she said that to me before and she could not understand why i would continue with the pain of infertility when there were other options. i was quite miffed then but less so nowadays.

Briss - you are brilliant.very funny and very insightful. it pains me to hear you have had such thoughts.do keep moving forward and know that it can happen to any of us at any time. this month could be itwho bloody knows!


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## Briss

Blythe, thank you! I love your posts, it makes me feel so much better reading them. 

When I read about women committing suicide it made me feel sad particularly when they are young cos things could have turned out differently for them and there was still hope. I think the same about myself at the moment but that's because I am out of the deep hole I was in only a few days ago. when you are in there you kinda see things differently and it's impossible to see the light, I found a way out (I mean I was not anywhere near committing a suicide but I had thought about it) because deep down I know there is still hope so I set myself time limits like yes this is an option but I will not do it just now yet. it's actually hard to persuade yourself to carry on with the misery but once you are out you can look back and think yes, that was close. I think I need to start Goodling infertility and going crazy 

I went for a smear test and shared my problems with the GP who did not hesitate to offer adoption! The only thing that made me stay calm was the fact that she was about to play with my cervix so I did not want to upset her so she does not screw things up for me but I did have quite a few things I wanted to say to her. Ms N also did not hesitate to offer donor eggs option after screwing my second IVF but here I did not hold myself back. how dare they! these are exceptionally difficult and personal choices and not suited for everyone. 

I can understand your friend re Christmas. I am not going to celebrate. my mum cant understand it she says I am depriving myself from the joy and punishing myself. That's not it, it's actually going to be a punishment to try and force myself to have fun while my entire body resents it and just want to be left alone


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## Blythe

I must confess I lost it last night. I became quite enraged and even though I knew it was my hormones I could not stop the rage. Imagine if you will a slightly overweight, slightly balding red faced woman banging a computer mouse on the computer desk. It's glass and it was very much my intention to break it. I hurt my hand and broke the battery door of the mouse. I came hone tonight and tried to tape it so DH would not notice. 

I'm laughing about it now but I just knew that this cycle is the same as the others so I'm out again (I also has some issues with ebay). I've not bothered with supps last couple of weeks.


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## Briss

It's quite funny when you say it like that but I completely understand how it feels. I am thinking of getting something that I could break when necessary cos when i get into a rage I usually target my DH's alarm clock (no idea why but i know it's going to annoy him), it's quite heavy so when you throw it it makes quite an impact and also it falls into pieces; open beer bottles with some beer still left are also great, you can see the beer coming out as it flies away, quite spectacular... but seriously I totally understand that you cant get through LTTTC without loosing it now and again. sometimes it almost feels like you need to get it out completely before you can move on to the next cycle. having said that, I so hope you are not out yet.

I think I am getting back to my normal state, well normal for a LTTTEr that is. I can go back to reading a pregnancy book. I was still in the middle of first trimester when my IVF failed and I could not bare to read anything pregnancy related. Now I feel I can continue it does not make me feel sad. 3 more sleeps until we see the urologist again, I am so hoping he can suggest a way to improve DH's numbers for a natural conception. IVF is all very well but I would really want to conceive naturally. what a dreamer!

My AF turned brown! yes! I think it's ending. i so hope it is. all these unusual things in my cycle are freaking me out. I want normality.


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## Juniperjules

Oh girls you've had me sitting here giggling away to myself with ur examples of rage & the best targets..in the last few months every time that I lost the plot with OH, I had a little routine..first I'd take his laptop & put it in my boot, then I'd hide the only key he had to his music studio door, then I'd take his credit card from the place where he stashes it & put it in my purse.. Then I'd take down off the sunroom walks about 10 band posters (memorabilia of bands he's been in over the years) & also stash them in my car.. And then I'd contemplate ripping them into a million pieces!!! Just going thru that routine like a crazed woman & thinking lastly about whether to rip up the posters really felt very satisfying at the time. Of course afterwards I felt stupid putting it all back again : ) on the last occasion though I DID actually rip up the posters!!! I enjoyed it immensely bcos I knew how much they meant to him. But a day or so later I felt very childish & ashamed for doing it. It's not nice to destroy something that really has meaning to someone else.. Even if I was angry. So I took them & stuck them back together then got them copied so the new ones looked pretty good. And I'm glad I did. I feel better knowing I did that. 

So, since u asked... The new fellow is def a hit in the boudoir...I shouldn't kiss & tell ; ) but he's fab.. He is very much into foreplay.. So therefore LOTS of kissing, wandering hands & other nice things going on (gosh I'm blushing here!)... He is very attentive, gentle & sweet. Always asking if I'm ok.... And very sexy I must say!!! I occasionally start stupidly laughing when were kissing bcos I feel like this can't b real!! He'll kiss for like 15 mins! I feel like I'm 21 again! And he keeps telling me I'm beautiful- which I'm not- I'm just normal! But am learning to accept the complements rather than blow them off which is quite immature for a 39 yr old woman! 

We have our hospital Christmas party tonite, so the cat will b out of the bag so to speak. at the moment only 3 of my work girlfriends know. He is working till 10pm then coming to the party afterwards.. Ill have a few drinks under my belt by then so will not b too nervewracking! Not that it really matters... But will b a little strange. He asked me if I wanted him to play things low key (bcos he's very touchy feely), & I've told him nah, were adults & it's not a secret. Will b a fun nite anyway, the sun is shining today, I'm sitting out the back of my folks place getting some vitamin D & actually feeling quite calm & happy. Things with OH are quite difficult right now. he is very insist any with his msgs & emails & is begging, pleading, apologising.. Promising never to hurt me ever again. Today I've had to just send a msg saying he has to give me until end of Jan to b on my own (ie not with him), bcos his texts & emails are breaking my heart. 

Anyway, today I'm going to enjoy THIS day- & not think beyond the rest of this day. I'm sick of thinking & worrying constantly!


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## Jazzbird

Ooooooh Juniper - it's better than reading steamy erotica! And you tease ... Don't leave us in suspense. Have you guys done the deed yet ... Or must we wait til after this Xmas partaaay?!!

VERY exciting!

So pleased you are enjoying yourself and trying to ignore DH's texts/emails. 

I am so happy for you.


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## Jazzbird

Ps Briss & Blythe - I too had a good giggle reading about your chosen objects to throw or trash in an argument.

My DH won't even let me raise my voice, we always have to "discuss" things quietly which to be honest gets annoying if you're feeling mad. I think he'd leave me if I ever threw anything. He has 0 tolerance for any aggression.


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## Blythe

Briss - Hurrah for Brown AF. Love the beer bottle oneits great watching the beer coming out.yes i very much enjoy dropping a full glass of wine [his not mine] or even occasionally a plate of food!

JJ - have a wonderful time at the party. its so exciting waiting for someone to turn up particularly when you have a few drinks inside you. he sounds great.my DHs idea of foreplay is checking to see if i am awake. Yes very much enjoying your updateseven though i have no clue what he looks like i quite fancy your new boyfriend too :)

Jazzbird - i wouldn't mind having a decent conversation with my DH but our conversations invariably descend into rage/accusations and threats to leave one another. having said that its been fine recently although that may be to do with the fact we don't see each other too much as we are both working hard at mo. He has been drinking more water though and is taking him supps which is a good thing so I'm trying not to pick on him at the moment :)


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## Blythe

gingmg - i have joined WW online. I'm already vexed with it as i could not upload an image! still i have 26 points daily to get through and i feel positive about it.

woke up in the most awful mood.i have those few days before AFshe is coming for sure and I'm just so so angry. i know that having a slim body will make things better. My first goal given by WW is 7 lbs which will take me under 11 stone. that would be wonderful for the start of the new year so I'm going to focus on that!

my username on WW is blythe25 so I hope you can find me!


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## gingmg

Blythe- good for you! I will try to find you. I haven't managed to have a day yet that I actually stay within my points, but so far have still lost weight. For me its just helpful to write down what I eat, it keeps me accountable. I also love checking the healthy check boxes. I hope you find WW as helpful as I do.

I tried to find you but couldn't! It said maybe you had your profile set to private and that's why I couldn't find you? I hope it's all the same site despite what country we live in. My name is genes4 if want to try to search for me in the community section under people.

Sorry about AF. It just sucks.


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## Blythe

i went to see Mrs Nurgunnd today and said i had lost my previous prescription of clomid so i have another 3 months of 50mg. i intend to double dose next cycle.

i talked to her about iui and ivf as she was encouraging me to come to Create. she suggested perhaps a medicated iui ahead of ivf.before she said there was little point in iui. anyhow, she also said my stats were good for my age and she had had success with ladies with only 2/3 follies and lower AMH.

I will have another sit down tonight with my calculator and see what i thinkI'm still keen on Kings as their prices are far lower.im thinking 3 x medicated iuis which should come in less than 1K.

i love my WW app.i don't have the facility to search for other ladies on my mobile but will check from my home computer later. I have eaten less but still going outside my points but i feel better already and its only been 2 days :) I feel in control again, of my eating if nothing else!!


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## melly2

Briss said:


> *melly*, I am sorry my depressing journey is putting you off IVF. I have to say that I am not a great example because with my high FSH I am just not suited for IVf. A colleague of mine just had her 1st IVf at Guy's (also male issues but normal FSH) and got pregnant, very straightforward, 8 eggs, 6 fertilised, 2 great blasts transferred and one frozen  that's what most people get. She does not know that I've had 2 failed attempts because I did not share it with anyone except my mum so she keeps telling me how wonderful IVf is if we had good sperm I'd most likely got pregnant naturally and if I had normal FSH we'd most likely got pregnant with IVF. low sperm count + high FSH = just pure shitty luck. My FS told me we are unlikely to be successful with IVf that's why the NHS refused funding. I should have agreed to do IVF while my FSH was still within norm. as you know I was also set against IVF that's why it took so long to accept it. it's very possible that if I agreed to do IVF when I was offered the chance two years ago I'd be TTC No. 2 now. If your FSH is below 15 you should be a good candidate for IVf. If it's above 15, based on my experience, I'd suggest natural IVF but be prepared that it may take several attempts. I am not trying to convince you for or against IVF, it's a very personal decision. I am just setting out facts as I see them.
> 
> We are seeing our urologist on Monday and I hope he can suggest some treatment for DH but if nothing can be done to improve his SA we are back to IVF. nothing else to do for us but to go through as many as it takes. I hope I will be able to control my emotions better next time. It's similar to natural TTC actually, at the beginning you are all excited and hopeful so obviously AF is a real blow but as time goes by you learn to expect AF and even though I still have a cry on Cd1 it's not near as bad as the meltdown I went through with my second IVF. So I now know that it will take a while so hopefully i will be calmer with my next IVF.
> 
> if IVf is an option for you I'd not wait until you are 40. I'd go for it as early as you can. having said that your DH's SA is improving tremendously so who knows he may get within normal range in a few months. I really hope you will be able to get pregnant naturally and soon!



Thanks for the info! To be honest, I have not been to the FS in more than a year. I have left it up to my husband to try and get his counts up. I told him yesterday that he needs to do another SA to see where he is. He's been dragging his feet with this whole thing, and ironically, he's the one that wants a baby the most. I realized that him and I were not on the same page when I asked him "When do you want to give up on trying?" and he said "40". I said, "38". What I think is he was just going to try and fix himself, and then if nothing in another year, then I would do IVF. I told him that is WAY TOO LATE! I absolutely refused to do it that late, and I told him that if I was not pregnant with the next 6 months that I was completely giving up all together. As the saying, "Either Shit or get off the pot". This has controlled my life for the past two years, and my patience is now wearing thin.

I think when it comes down to it he feels like he's failed me and is less of a man. Going to all the doctors only reinforces this each time, which is why I think he's been dragging his feet so much. We both ignore the subject and rarely talk about it, we really are at a crossroads, and I agree with you, I DO NOT want to wait until I'm 40.

We decided that he will do another SA at the beginning of the year. Then we'll decide what to do from there. Last time I checked, my hormone levels were normal. Do you know why your FSH is elevated?


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## Blythe

Briss - did you see the urologist today?


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## Briss

Blythe, I will try to reply in more detail tomorrow I am just trying to digest what urologist said. it seems to be a new low and potentially a dead end for us. he started off with lifestyle changes etc etc but after I provided him with all the info and all that we have done in the last 3.5 years he completely changed his view and asked us to do genetic testing because anything we do does not make any difference whatsoever if there are genetic issues. nothing can be done. he asked us both to do the test but he obviously does not know that I was pregnant before. I think I will just get ahead with my test as well (unless it costs a small fortune) cos I do not really want to tell Dh about my past. it will crush him completely. I was just recovering from the failed IVF, it's been only a few days that I want to live again and now another blow and a really big one this time... :( I am so frightened I just do not know what to do if it comes back with bad news.


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## Jazzbird

Briss - I can't believe the urologist is bypassing your OH sperm issues. Surely that is the first port of call?

As for genetic testing - perhaps it is worth it to check just in case there is something glaringly obvious but I personally feel raking around anyone's genetic material will find some abnormalities. A friend of mine who had recurrent miscarriage was subject to rounds of genetic testing with her OH. They thought they found something and they were both upset. But they have since gone on to have 2 kids. 

I'm so sorry that you are going through all of this: but I still feel your OH sperm needs to be addressed. 

Big hugs to you Briss. This must be so alarming but I just want to reassure you that it is common to do genetic testing.


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## gingmg

Blythe- medicated IUIs sound like a good plan. Why not?

Briss- keep us posted. I'm sorry you are feeling down again. 

Jazzbird- how are you feeling?

Cysts are gone, started injecting again, which translates to feeling hopeful for two weeks:)


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## Briss

The urologist looked through DH's new SA and bloods and he started talking about lifestyle changes to address his 0% morphology! (that's the first time we got down to 0) and he did confirm that alcohol affects morphology so DH should not exceed 5 units a week (he also said that any physical exercise for more than 30 min will affect SA as the body temp goes up killing sperm and any tight sports wear affects the sperm as well but of course we know that I was just happy DH heard it from an expert) but then I told the urologist that we have in fact done all that antioxidants etc and he did 3 months off beer and was taking vitamins etc but his SA was never above 11/12 mil. The urologist then looked through all DH's previous SAs over the last 3.5 years (I put together a table with all the info and attached the results). After that he said that unfortunately he now sees a totally different picture because his SA goes up and down but never reaches normal levels so clearly lifestyle changes are not going to make any difference. 

The urologist said that usually there is an underlying reason why this happens. This cannot be caused by an obstruction because obstruction is characterised by low SA volumes, high PH and it never fluctuates it only goes down while DH's SA volumes are always around 2-6, PH is normal and the count fluctuates. 

The other major potential problem is genetic. If there is a genetic issue it will affect the sperm cos it will make the dna unstable and the embryo not viable. (btw it's nothing to do with various diseases being passed on genetically). I have not researched this yet but basically there are two options: either you get it on conception or while in your mother's womb but in both scenarios I understand there is nothing that can be done. SA will never improve whatever you do. the fact that I had chemical may also indicate that if the sperm had this chromosomal abnormality it made the embryo unstable so basically there is only way for us is to improve the math i.e. to have stim IVF to get many eggs and observe embryos in the lab for longer to pick the good one for ET. unfortunately I had to tell him that with my FSH this is not an option for us. we could only do natural IVf and he said in our case natural IVF does not increase our odds compared to TTC naturally. So basically this is the end of the road. We may get lucky or we may not.

If Dh's genetic test comes back as normal then he said we could try and increase his numbers by throwing ever known treatment at poor DH. The urologist said there is no point in wasting money on any more tests and it's more practical to just go through and try treatments including antibiotics (there is a possibility of some infections being undetected), tricking DH's body into producing more testosterone etc. To be honest when I went there I was hoping he will suggest just that and I just was not ready for the genetic thing. he said he understands the despair but it is what it is and we need to know it because he sees men getting their women pregnant with DH's low numbers and because it's been 3.5 years and nothing, it makes him feel that there is a reason. 

I obviously have a question for the universe but there is no polite way in phrasing it ... 

If it comes back as bad news do I leave my DH? I do not think I can I do love him. what the hell do I do, I cant live without children. With all his faults my Dh is a wonderful person and he is incredibly smart. he is not a genius but he is very close. The way his mind works is absolutely incredible and most people simply have no faculty to achieve what he can achieve. It was always at the back of my mind that our children might be incredibly smart. and yet a person like him is not supposed to procreate. why?

He keeps asking why I am so sure that if it is going to be a genetic issue it's not mine but most likely his. I do not know do I tell him the truth that I was pregnant before? Or shall I just keep quiet cos he has enough on his plate. he is so afraid that I am going to leave him. 

I feel numb, It's been a tough journey going progressively from bad to worse. Every time I am struck I try to get up and get struck even harder.


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## Blythe

Briss. When do you get the results of these tests? I didn't know such tests existed. 

In answer to your questions about leaving him & your previous pregnancy ...no to both. But if the testing shows there is an issue with him becoming a biological father then the decision will be for him to decide whether he is comfortable with donor sperm. It's a lot to work through but it can be done.


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## Briss

Blythe, the test is called blood chromosomes/kary (or karyotype). I know very little about it. cant bring myself to do the research. scared of what I may find. We have not done the test yet, hopefully tomorrow but no idea how long it takes to get the results. Considering the bank holidays I doubt we will hear back before next year.

I may have to have another talk with DH but he was previously very clear re donor sperm so it most likely means either I am sticking around hoping for a miracle or we get a divorce and I go single mum/donor sperm route. I do not like either. I want a family and I want a child from a man I love &#8211; why is this too much to ask! 

I am really losing it. I know I should wait for the results before losing my mind but I cant


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## Jazzbird

Briss, you poor thing. This just sounds like a nightmare. What happened with your pregnancy and why did you not feel you can tell DH? (I'm not judging)

With your dilemma - I guess you need to ask him a) that if he can't have kids - does he not want kids at all? Or would he look at other avenues? And b) if he says he doesn't want kids at all unless they are his - can you accept this?

Xxx


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## Blythe

Briss - On top of everything that you have gone through in the last 3 months this is tuff. Waiting for any results is stressful enough and i understand your dwelling on the very worst possible result. i wish i could do or say something to help you. 

Your DH's urologist sounds very good and he has clearly listened to and considered everything you have told him. Its good to get this test done at this stage and i dearly hope the results will not be bad news for you both and it is something he has suggested to just ensure that this is not the issue. He clearly wants to work with you to ensure you have all the information you need in order to move forward and this is part of that process. I hope that the results will come before you have a break over christmas as its not the sort of thing you want hanging around.

:hugs: for you Brissthis is an awful journey to have been on for so long.


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## Briss

Blythe, thanks. the urologist is dr Ramsey. he is considered the best in the UK so I know we are in good hands it's just depressing that things are taking such a drastic turn. Everything I've done so far like CBFM, charting, vitamins TCM etc just seems so silly and totally irrelevant. and again my FS was probably right when she said DH's fertility is impaired and nothing can be done so we should move to ICSI asap. I can see now that it probably was our only chance cos my FSH was low and we could have had several embryos to chose from on stim IVF. now we are stuck. I was actually looking at Dh's bloods and some things are just not within norm. for some reason dr Ramsey did not think DH has any hormonal issues but maybe he does. or maybe I am just clutching at straws here but it makes me feel a little better. we will do the test tomorrow but I think it may take ages to get the results and he is probably going away for Christmas so I do not expect to hear back before next year. 

btw dr Ramsey said that even with Dh's low numbers he recommends BD every day around ovulation! it will improve the quality. no point to "save up" the sperm. that goes against everything I read recommending "every other day" but I totally trust his opinion. obviously there is still a tiny issue of DH's non-existent sex drive&#8230; 

I do feel that I am getting more than my share of misfortunes, it's self pitting I know but I just cant help it. it really is too much. I do get some positive news but they are so minor like finally after struggling for many weeks with a broken washing machine we got it replaced &#8211; that's great but on the same day I get the genetic issues talk. I cant get a break, can I.


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## Blythe

i do you what you mean about the temping, vitamins etcif only we knew at the beginning but that is simply impossible. The facts are the most women do conceive within a year so why on earth would we start the process with expensive testing

it is interesting what he said about BDing everyday. i often think i would have been pregnant by now if we had regular sex, not just panic sex during fertile period but regular sex throughout the month. still we don't anymore and its not going to happen.

having said i would not go through with IVF I'm now thinking about it again. i received a message from a clinic in Berlin [www.fertilitycenterberlin.de] and he said this:

_Yes we take patients from UK for IVF treatment.
You have a good antrale follicle count, so I would say to have a fully medicated cycle to rinse up the chance of getting pregnant.
IVF costs are 2500-3000 Euro plus medication (500-700 Euro), plus anesthesia (300 Euro)._

but I'm thinking with flights and accommodation i would be better to go with kingsthey do natural ivf for 1500 but i would probably go with medicated if that is still an option for me. I'm not sure how fast it all goes downhill at my ageprobably quite quickly. so my plan is 2 months of clomid and going ahead with medicated IUI/s then IVF with Kings [all subject to change thought!].


Briss - you must not lose it.you have come up against brick walls whichever way you turn but there is hope. You have regular cycles and release an egg every month, your lining is great, you are married to a man you love who does have a sperm countthere is so much good stuff there to work with. I know that 3.5 years of ttc has left you without hope but it does happengood things do happen to lovely people so i hope that something really lovely happens for you both soon.

i know you are going through an extremely difficult time and you have most certainly had more than your fair share of distressing news. i don't think you have stopped working or had a break since these two rounds of ivf and i wonder if you have had anything at all to help you relax. i know a massage isn't going to cut it but i wonder if there is something which could help you through this all.


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## melly2

Briss said:


> Blythe, the test is called blood chromosomes/kary (or karyotype). I know very little about it. cant bring myself to do the research. scared of what I may find. We have not done the test yet, hopefully tomorrow but no idea how long it takes to get the results. Considering the bank holidays I doubt we will hear back before next year.
> 
> I may have to have another talk with DH but he was previously very clear re donor sperm so it most likely means either I am sticking around hoping for a miracle or we get a divorce and I go single mum/donor sperm route. I do not like either. I want a family and I want a child from a man I love  why is this too much to ask!
> 
> I am really losing it. I know I should wait for the results before losing my mind but I cant

Hi Briss,

I'm sorry to hear about your news. Do you think, based on the genetic testing outcome, that he may be open to donated sperm? I was just curious, because maybe after all of this, this would be the best route. 

Hang in there! :flower:


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## gingmg

Briss- I am very sorry you are going through this. It must be very painful. I know in the past your DH has said no to donor sperm, but that was when he was still hopeful he could get you pregnant. If a doctor tells him otherwise, he may eventually feel differently. Sometimes we don't make certain decisions until we have to and not a moment before. Having said all that, maybe the test will come back ok and IVF will still be an option. If its not an option, for as painful as this is, I believe you can get through this, and if children is what you want, you will find a way to make that happen. 
I am so sorry this has been such a long difficult journey. I will hold the faith that this will somehow all work out if you can't right now.


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## Briss

sorry ladies I was so preoccupied with my problems that only now I finally got to read all your updates

*Jazzbird*, how are you feeling?

*Juniperjules*, I liked your "little routine", I can totally understand ripping up the posters and then regretting it. happens to us all, when you are in the middle of it it all seems reasonable and well deserved but then when the rage goes away you are left feeling silly. your new guy sounds wonderful! enjoy every minute of it. How's your hospital Christmas party? I think you are doing the right thing in trying to keep your OH at a distance so you could figure out what to do. 

*Melly*, you made me laugh with your "Either Shit or get off the pot", never heard that before! sorry if I asked before, have you been to a urologist? has he done bloods? your DH's SA is gradually improving which is a great sign but maybe a doc can offer some hormonal treatment to progress things further. I obviously regret that I failed to force my DH to go and see the urologist much earlier cos we would have more info on what's going on by now and maybe moved to IVF much sooner. 

*Gingmg and Blythe*, please keep us posted on your WW updates. I really want to read about your progress. Maybe it will inspire me to stop stuffing my face with cakes. WW does not work for me but I know what does (800 calories a day half of which comes from chocolate!) I just need to motivate myself to do it. I am wearing a skirt that does not really allow me to breathe and yet it's not motivating me to stop over eating. 

*Gingmg*, great news that the cysts are gone! good luck with your injections this cycle. 

*Blythe*, I am sorry to see your temp down. Are you starting Clomid next month? are you going to do anything to help the lining grow? I have to say I am surprised Mrs Nurgunnd is suggesting IUI cos she said at an open evening that IUI should only be used for donor sperm/same sex couples/men unable to come situations cos it's of very limited use. Still, I think trying IUI is a great idea and doing a medicated cycle can help you see what's your ovarian response before going for IVF. But I'd definitely check what your lining is while on chlomid before paying for IUI and maybe take 1-2 cycle to recover the lining.

re a clinic in Berlin, flights to Germany are really cheap and I am sure if you book a hotel in advance you can save a lot. having said that King's prices sound good too.

you are so right whichever way I turn I come up against brick walls, sometimes I wonder if this is nature's way of telling me to forget about children. but then this is not the first time I have to achieve something which seems impossible. I still remember going to the college of law before starting my solicitor's course only to be told that I should withdraw my application and get my money back before it's too late because there is absolutely no way for somebody with my background to ever get a training contract with a city law firm. I did not believe them and went on to apply to 20 firms and got 20 rejections. It took 8 months of research, networking and lots of hard work before I got an interview. until now I thought that was the hardest thing I've done. It's nothing compared to 3.5 years of TTC and banging against brick walls on a daily basis. maybe there is hope I do not know.

*afm*, my hormones are still out of order, have been spotting on and off and it's already CD12! not a sign of EWCM. I wonder if I am even going to O this cycle. Tried BD but DH does not feel like finishing the job&#8230; I lost my sex drive completely after the genetics discussion and cant get it back. I still cant understand the chromosomal issues and how it affect his sperm count. maybe we just need to wait for the results and it will become clearer. I talked to a few women who had it done but it seems like the only answer is ICSI/IMSI which we are doing anyway so basically if we have to go natural IVF route and his genetic test comes back abnormal we will have to be prepared for chemicals and mc&#8230;


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## Jazzbird

Briss - when do you get the results? So hoping that it comes back ok. You are amazing Briss coping with everything you are going through. 

I'm fine. Just got mild cramping and constant but mild nausea. I feel very anxious but just have to keep my fingers crossed that everything goes ok. 

Love to all the lovely ladies on this thread. I have tried to make friends in other forums but there's no other group like you!

Xxx


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## Briss

*Jazzbird*, fingers crossed for you and your little one. have you had the scan yet? 

we did the genetic test today (300 pounds per head!!!) but it will take 5 to 15 working days to get the results so I am guessing next year. I am looking into genetic testing of the embryos, also an option but it has certain risks and obviously IVF is no guarantee any way but with not every embryo created being viable due to genetic issues it becomes even less likely.


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## Jazzbird

That's a long wait Briss. You never know they could do it in 5 days - although that will bring you to New Year. I will be praying for you (I'm not religious, but believe in something - I'm just not sure what!)

I haven't had any scans or blood tests. I have to wait til 12 weeks. I could pay to go private but then it is hard to detect the embryo this early and even if they do, I may still lose it before 12 weeks.


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## BBbliss

Briss, I'm so sorry you have been having such a terrible time lately. So many things happening, so many variables, it's all so unique with each one of us. I know that every step of the way we must adjust and change perspective but education brings clarity and only you and DH can decide what's best for both of you. I'm praying for you as well. 

Jazzbird, how many wks are you now? Time will go by fast and before you know it it will be 12 wks :)

Blythe and ging, I hope you girls are doing well

Juniper how's the new man? ;)

Afm, sorry I haven't participated in some topics, I read your posts and I think about you girls everyday. I dove into fixing up my house as a distraction from TTC, my DF said the furniture are playing musical chairs, every time he walks its a surprise. It's my obsession now, I really just wanted to take a brake from ttc, a mental brake, but tomorrow I have a follow up with RE and DF is coming and we are going to discuss IVF and costs, my other appt with new RE is not until January 2nd. We are going to talk to both and decide what we are going to do next. My DF said he would do two rounds but honestly I don't know if I want that. I think I only want to try one, and if we are lucky enough to have frozen embryos for second round then I'd be ok with that. It's just that its so emotionally hard. I watch Briss and my sister's best friend who also went through her 2nd failed IVF just now and I know how hard it is. I'm now thinking I have done my part and I tried and in the end it was DF who can't have kids... We'll see what happens these next couple of wks...


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## melly2

Briss said:


> sorry ladies I was so preoccupied with my problems that only now I finally got to read all your updates
> 
> *Melly*, you made me laugh with your "Either Shit or get off the pot", never heard that before! sorry if I asked before, have you been to a urologist? has he done bloods? your DH's SA is gradually improving which is a great sign but maybe a doc can offer some hormonal treatment to progress things further. I obviously regret that I failed to force my DH to go and see the urologist much earlier cos we would have more info on what's going on by now and maybe moved to IVF much sooner.

Glad I can offer a good laugh. I know you and are in the same position, so I try to find humor where I can. My DH has been to a urologist, and in fact, this was the first thing we did since he had testicular cancer. He has been a bit lazy lately and has not been to the doctor since July, so we have no idea what his counts are now. I told him he needs to go after the holidays. I think his next count should be interesting seeing that it's been nearly six months.


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## Delphine11

Yes, it is hard some days, BBbliss. It's not always easy to stay postive sometimes. I think taking a break - even if it's a tiny break - can be good. My BBT was getting me down because the chart looked bad compared to a couple of months ago, so I've had a few days break from temping, just so I don't obsess or get upset about it.

I think concentrating on your house is a good thing. Being busy can help, and the bonus is your house will look fab!

Good luck to you and everyone here. If I had a magic wish, I'd ask that everyone here could get pregnant easily and have a trouble-free 9 months. Sometimes it's wearing that something so normal can be so hard. I wish it was easy for all of us.

:hugs::hugs: To anyone who needs a hug.


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## melly2

Briss said:


> *Jazzbird*, fingers crossed for you and your little one. have you had the scan yet?
> 
> we did the genetic test today (300 pounds per head!!!) but it will take 5 to 15 working days to get the results so I am guessing next year. I am looking into genetic testing of the embryos, also an option but it has certain risks and obviously IVF is no guarantee any way but with not every embryo created being viable due to genetic issues it becomes even less likely.

I'm actually a fan of genetic testing. That's the quickest way to find out if there is a genetic mutations which can not be fixed. Though they say genetic testing can compromise and embryo, at the same time, with our ages, the chance of our embryos having a genetic problem is almost 50%. Imagine if we can at least get a good, healthy embryo early on, then you would know for sure it's something within your body to cause it to expel the embryo before implanting. If I do IVF, I'm going to seriously lean towards doing the genetic testing.


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## gingmg

Finally got myself to a yoga class last night and then again this morning, so feeling better than I have in awhile. Had my CD 7 ultrasound and looks like my right ovary is making the follies, which is the side of the blocked tube. There is a small one on the left, so maybe it will catch up and I will still have a chance? I was so hopeful too. We will see how they look at the next ultrasound in a few days and hopefully the small one on the left will start to grow, or else I will be heading to IVF after the new year.

Met my wife for coffee in the city yesterday where we used to always go. There was a woman with her two kids, one being a new baby. I remember her from our walks on the bike path when she was very pregnant. My wife just about drooled over the baby, and I just couldn't look. It was fine, but of coarse I had to make a little comment to my wife. Then a whole troup of moms and their newborns came in, so again I made a comment to my wife that it was time to go. Anyway, I got home from yoga last night to pictures of moms holding their newborns with bulls eyes drawn on the moms forehead and a plastic bag taped to it with spit ball supplies inside. I don't think I have ever laughed so hard. I took a picture with my phone and tried to upload it, but can't figure it out. Oh my god, you girls would die. She had a picture of a dog on it too, mostly to campaign for us to get a dog ( not going to happen). It's aweful I know, but it sure felt good to laugh like that. We then proceeded to to try out the spit balls. Oh girls, I think that's why I love her so much, she can ALWAYS make me laugh.


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## Blythe

Brilliant :)


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## gingmg

Today was the third day in a row of getting myself to a yoga class. :happydance: It felt so good I actually started crying on my mat at the beginning of class...I'm not emotional from the injectables or anything.... I have to go back to work tonight for a stretch before Christmas so I won't be getting to another class for awhile, but I feel like I am on the right road to feeling like my old self again. Someone remind how good I feel when I go to yoga if I stop again in two weeks. 

Someone also remind me to stay out of the two week wait and general TTC forums. :wacko:


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## Blythe

gingmg - stay away from those forumsi used to peek and very occasionally see something that resonated with me but once you are over the 1 year mark it really is to be avoided at all costs. Full of excitement and curiosity.which i guess is the ttc for most women..lucky girls!

i weighed myself today as it is this time last week i joined WW online and i have lost 3lbit would have been more but i had a takeaway last night and quite a bit of booze as visited family. i have gone over my point allowance each day but just tracking my food intake makes me more aware of my bad snacking habits!

Thats so great about the yogawell done and keep at it. Its inspiring that you feel so much better and positive within just 2 classes! i have struggled to find a local class that fits in with my schedule and doing it at home requires a mountain of will power!!

i am off for an initial IVF consult tomorrow morning so it will be interesting to see if my FSH and AFC levels have changed in the last few months as i guess at my age these things deteriorate quite quickly. i will report back!


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## Briss

ladies, sorry I am not posting much. I read all your posts but just do not feel like spreading my depressing mood. 

Blythe and gingmg, I really like your WW/Yoga updates. please keep going. It even made me watch intro to my most recent purchase Bend, Breathe and Conceive (not enough motivation to actually do any of that yet but hopefully soon).

Blythe, so exciting about your IVF app tomorrow. Cant wait for your update. I am feeling very positive that it may work the first time for you.


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## gingmg

Blythe- excellent job on WW!! I go over my points too, but track them all anyway. I don't think I will be loosing this week though. Good luck at your Ivf consult! Let us know how it goes and what they say.

BBbliss- how did your appointment go?

Jazzbird- how are you feeling?

Juniper- how is the romance?

Briss- sorry you have been down. I wish I knew how to help.

And hello to anyone else reading.


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## Blythe

Briss - i have just checked your chart and see you had sex twice in one day.can this be true?

i haven't done that since the mid 90sI'm impressed!


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## Briss

Blythe, that is true :) but what's more amazing is that it was DH who initiated it both times!!!! it's very strange but now that we know it does not really matter when and how often we BD and that it's just not going to happen for us that easily I do not really care about anything including BD. I usually plan BD strategy in advance for each cycle but this month I just let it go and did not annoy DH with when and how often we have to BD (it's not that he always BD when I ask but at least 1-2 times out of 5-10) and somehow it made him very excited ... I guess no pressure thing worked for him. I know I should probably be happy about it but I just cant be happy about anything these days.


----------



## Jazzbird

Hello ladies - hope you are all having a nice weekend.

Briss - happy to read you and your OH are connecting again. It's lovely to be desired ... I know it's come out of bad news but I hope and pray that this leads to a miracle. God knows you deserve it. 

Blythe - looking forwards to hearing about your ivf consult and congrats on the weight loss! That is good news. 

Gingmg - your wife sounds like a real hoot. So important to be able to laugh together. I'm glad you are going to yoga. I love it when I do it and keep thinking I should do this more. It's sometimes hard to find the motivation - I really struggle with my hamstrings - they are so so tight. I need to find a teacher who can show me alternate poses. 

Bbbliss - I understand your reticence about ivf. It is hard going but I have a friend whose oh had 0% morphology and it worked first time for them. It can and does happen. You might get lucky. Just take it one day at a time. 

Juniper - we are so overdue a bonking update - although Briss is now giving you a run for your money  I hope you are enjoying your romance and managing to keep your ex at a distance. 

Afm - I'm fine, just got constant nausea but no vomiting. Still nervous and worrying but trying to accept its something I have no control over. I'm off work for 2 weeks but about to stay at mother in law for Xmas. It's going to be tricky when every smell under the sun makes me feel ill. Just so grateful to not have to travel into London every day.

I just watched the conjuring - very spooky jumpy film. I love watching a good horror. 

Love to everyone xxx


----------



## HayleyJJ

I spent £400 on acupuncture for my sickness with my last pregnancy but sadly it didn't work.


----------



## Blythe

Hi Hayley

sorry the acu did not help alleviate your symptoms with your last pregnancy.you will find mixed successes here. I have spent thousands and seen a number of different practitioners with varying degrees of success. the ultimate goal is yet to be reached though! i have to say i have not had acu for many months and am reluctant to reengage with the process if I'm honest. However, chinese medicine does continue to fascinate me and there is much i have taken away from reading about it.

how long have you been ttc this time around?

Jazzbird - i am sorry you are feeling nauseous.i brought those little bands that people have for travel sickness. They sell them in my local pound shop but they did help. have a lovely break over the christmas period.

Briss - that regular sex may help with the SC.you never know. i am just going for some initial tests today ahead of the proper consult.i will report back on AFC. i have retrieved my DHEA out of the cupboard and will take one every other daysod the hair! I now need to formulate a new plan. for 'Operation increase lining'any suggestions welcome.

my lp was back to normal last cycle having been 2/3 days shorter the cycle before. that was the post clomid cycle so it is all back to normal now although my periods are def shorter. i have no problem with that but obviously i am concerned about my lining but then again i have read about women getting pregnant with only 1/2 day periods.

i drank and ate 4 days worth of WW points yesterday so clearly its not going to be the week for it!


----------



## gingmg

Blythe- I take vit E ( thanks to juniper jules!) and my lining has been much better than previous cycles. Not sure if its the vit E or not smoking? Took baby aspirin one cycle, but then read that you shouldnt take that with vit E, its either one or the other and since my doctor said no to baby aspirin, I stuck with the E.


----------



## HayleyJJ

Blythe said:


> Hi Hayley
> 
> sorry the acu did not help alleviate your symptoms with your last pregnancy.you will find mixed successes here. I have spent thousands and seen a number of different practitioners with varying degrees of success. the ultimate goal is yet to be reached though! i have to say i have not had acu for many months and am reluctant to reengage with the process if I'm honest. However, chinese medicine does continue to fascinate me and there is much i have taken away from reading about it.
> 
> how long have you been ttc this time around?
> 
> Jazzbird - i am sorry you are feeling nauseous.i brought those little bands that people have for travel sickness. They sell them in my local pound shop but they did help. have a lovely break over the christmas period.
> 
> Briss - that regular sex may help with the SC.you never know. i am just going for some initial tests today ahead of the proper consult.i will report back on AFC. i have retrieved my DHEA out of the cupboard and will take one every other daysod the hair! I now need to formulate a new plan. for 'Operation increase lining'any suggestions welcome.
> 
> my lp was back to normal last cycle having been 2/3 days shorter the cycle before. that was the post clomid cycle so it is all back to normal now although my periods are def shorter. i have no problem with that but obviously i am concerned about my lining but then again i have read about women getting pregnant with only 1/2 day periods.
> 
> i drank and ate 4 days worth of WW points yesterday so clearly its not going to be the week for it!


I have been ttc number 2 for years all end in cm due to my severe sickness :-(

I'm under a consultant the only thing I have never tried is Chinese herbs and I'll try this time when I get my bfp xxx


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## Blythe

My afc was 9 each ovary so since I last had it done a few months ago it has increased from 10-11 to 18. Might me after effects of clomid. Very happy with that :)


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## HayleyJJ

That's great 

Are herbs good for sickness


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## Briss

*Bliss*, have you discussed your IVf plans with your DF? it does not necessarily has to be as bad as mine was. I see people getting lucky first time and even if not the majority gets lucky on their second try, only small percentage of people are unlucky enough to have to go through multiple IVfs. 

*Jazzbird*, it's great that you are having 2 weeks off, relaxing at home with your family will do you and your little one lots of good! grow beany grow! 

*Hayley*, my experience with TCM is similar to Blythe's. although it looks like our problems might be more serious than we thought so TCM was unlikely to help 

*gingmg*, definitely stay away from those forums, it's just a recipe for getting depressed. These girls do not know that much about TTC and what really works (if anything) so any advice they have is of very limited use to any LTTTer. I am so seriously impressed with your yoga! last night DH and I were practicing the lotus pose. interestingly I can do it quite easily but he cant even place one leg on top of the other. not sure what's the problem there but he has lots of pain in his knees while I do not feel any pain anywhere. 

*melly*, I am still trying to get my head around genetic testing but basically there is a difference between genetic conditions that you can pass on to your children and genetic related conditions that affect fertility. I think there are a few specific conditions that do affect sperm production. For example, I was talking to a lady whose husband has klinefelters syndrome (there is zero sperm in his ejaculate). However, he also had very low testosterone, high LH and FSH, so it doesn't sound like what my Dh may have cos my DH has normal hormone levels and he is actually producing sperm. But maybe there are other conditions. btw klinefelters syndrome is not hereditary, so even if her DH can have children he would not pass on the KF chromosome, it only affects his fertility. But this is just one example of a potential genetic condition, there must be others. I do not know enough about it yet 

My DH's bloods:

FSH 2.6 (normal)
LH 3.2 (normal)
testosterone 18.1 (normal)
SHBG 71 (high, normal is 16-55)
testosterone/SHBG ratio 25.5 (lower side of normal)
prolactin 207 (normal)

The urologist thought they were OK but I can clearly see that SHBG is high and testosterone/SHBG ratio is on the lower side of normal. Maybe he could benefit from some treatment after all?

also, when it comes down to the genetic testing on the actual embryo, it does not guarantee that you pick a healthy one. it improves your chances but not 100% cos they are looking at one sell which may not be indicative of the embryo itself. and yes, you are right this testing can easily destroy the embryo. 

*Blythe*, fantastic news on afc of 18!! This is incredible! Your ovaries are clearly that of a 20-something year old girl. You should have a very good response to stim meds if you go IVF route. Very positive news!

have you asked about DHEA at your IVF clinic? I would be interested in their views. 'Operation increase lining' sounds great I wish I knew how to do that, I guess herbs like nettles may help. when you do your scan can you ask what's your lining in mm and whether this is triple layer? maybe your lining is fine. I am not sure whether AF is really indicative of the lining quality?

regular sex does help with sperm quality but as the urologist said DH's drinking is the main contributing factor and unfortunately DH continues drinking. I have to say I am indulging in red wine these days it all just seems too much and so hopeless I feel like I am drowning and cant find anything to cling to. We had lots of sex which is great but I keep thinking what's the point? 

I have a new harry potter philosophy (you have my permission to laugh I know it sounds lame), I've been watching too much tv lately (going out and seeing happy families makes feel angry and sad at the same time so I feel it will be safer for everyone if I just stay at home) so I think I watched the entire harry potter series and I think I can appreciate his difficultly of going through life having such a burden of tragic events that happened to him while not being able to connect with other people who have no idea what it must feel like to live through some of these horrors. I feel similar, it's not just TTC but also losing my beloved father and losing my fiancé at 20. none of my friends can relate to that. In one of the episodes harry potter was getting angry at everyone and was sort of turning to the dark side and I thought there must be a point where I cant believe in anything good anymore and I feel I am very close to that point right now. if some kind of apocalypses happens tomorrow, I think I might be OK with that. is that really bad? Obviously it all ends very well for harry potter cos all his evils come from a recognisable source, there is a dark wizard that is making all these bad things happen if you destroy the wizard you are going to be fine. but I cant really say that there is somebody who is making my life a misery. it just happens sort of on its own so I cant really end it, am I just stuck here?

I am getting my Christmas presents and some include "do not kill yourself" type of books&#8230; very thoughtful of my friends but rather depressing. I used to get Christmas cards from friends who know we are TTC wishing us "the gift", sadly not anymore I think everyone lost hope for us


----------



## Blythe

HayleyJJ said:


> That's great
> 
> Are herbs good for sickness

What kind of sickness are you dealing with? We have an acupuncturist on this thread who may have done good advice for you


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## HayleyJJ

I had acupuncture this year 10 sessions but it didn't help :-(

Morning sickness


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## Jazzbird

Hi Hayley - can I ask who you saw for acupuncture? I'm an acupuncturist and acupuncturists vary greatly in experience and where they trained.


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## HayleyJJ

A lady locally to myself she was amazing tho sadly it didn't help me for my sickness as soon as 6 weeks came I was very ill


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## Jazzbird

What is the sickness like?


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## HayleyJJ

It's extreme I'm literally sick all day every day 

On a drip in the hospital no drugs help 

From 6 weeks like clock work 

Do u suggest anything?


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## Blythe

Briss - i hope you are doing oki know it has/is a very difficult time for you. i am thinking of you everyday :flower: something will change Briss and things will get better for youi don't know when but they will. sometimes i guess we must stop fighting and recognise that things are just f***ing rubbish and that we need to really feel that and accept itsometimes by accepting those awful feelings of despair we start then moving on from that place.

the blood results for your DH seem to be quite encouraging and hopefully as you say there will be something they can do to address the slight testosterone/SHBG ratio imbalance.

i hope something happens very soon that will bring some joy in your life. You most certainly are due some good fortune.

I'm not sure my ovaries are that of a 20 yo but i was certainly very relieved and pleased that there had been no deterioration since my last scan. That last scan was a very sombre affair and she told me at the end my count of 10-11 was most likely why i had been trying for so long. what a load of toddle that was! i suspect its either DH Sperm or my old eggs.well anyway i was very happy that my count had increased so significantly from 10/11 to 18.i do wonder how much it fluctuates for women cycle to cycle.


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## BBbliss

Briss, thank you for your words. I did talk to DF about a plan and we decided our limit is two. I hope you are right and it does work the first time. Btw, PLEASE enjoy DD! What's the point? The love and the bond between you two. This is really nice to hear and I hope it's here to stay :)

Jazz, I cancelled the appt because they wanted to charge us as if we were coming in for a consultation again and DF called them and said he was disappointed. Now they called us back and waived it. I think we'll go back next wk. we still have that initial consultation with new RE on the 2nd. I'll report back and let you know what they say, and this time DF is going with me and like you saw he is much better at speaking his mind about what's right so I'm glad he'll be there from the beginning this time. 

Blythe, what a great number! I'm so happy for you! I want to see what happens with stims you should have a nice outcome. Good luck! 

Ging way to go! You are inspiring me. I'm going back to working out again next week. I fell off that horse a couple of months ago when I moved and now I just horrible, slow, stiff, soft, and I only have myself to blame :(

Juni, hope you are having fun with new man ;)

Merry Christmas everyone!!!!


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## Briss

*Blythe*, thanks! I am trying to get through this Christmas as best I can. Hubby will be cooking a duck :) (I am thinking of a back-up plan in case the duck goes horribly wrong, which happened before...) I was hoping to have a relaxing couple of days, just chilling out at home but one of my deals came back and people want to kick off on Boxing day. what a nightmare!

re AFC, I think it does fluctuate but it also depends on who is doing the counting. my AFC was 9, 6, 10.

*BBbliss*, thank you! I am actually very grateful that i met DH, he does make me happy (when he is not drinking beer that is!) and I can see us growing old together. 

I think planning 2 IVFs is a good strategy cos it makes you feel less stressed when you start your first one. 

Ladies, wishing you all BFPs, H&H 9 months and healthy and beautiful babies next year. Merry Christmas!


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## gingmg

Merry Christmas ladies!


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## Juniperjules

Just popping in quickly ladies to say Merry Christmas!

It's 2pm Christmas Day in Australia so the festivities are well under way here! I hope u all have a lovely day with ur loved ones

Will b back to post again in a day or so xoxox


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## Blythe

Merry Christmas all :flower:

i have brought DH a BH free water bottle [for sperm] and a coffee set [for me] and some belgian beer [also for me]..hoping he has taken the same care in choosing my gifts.

Briss - i love that you have a 'duck' back up plani hope you do not have to use it!


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## Jazzbird

Merry Xmas to the best online ladies in the world. Hoping you are all enjoying yourselves and praying for everyone to get their special miracle in 2014. 

Xxxxxxxxxxxx


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## Jazzbird

Hi Hayley

I think if you have already tried acupuncture and had treatment from an acupuncturist registered with the British acupuncture council then I can't really recommend anything else. 

There is a newish branch of acupuncture called medical acupuncture. Any doctor, physiotherapist or chiropractor can train in it but it only takes a few days to train. Acupuncturists who register with the British acupuncture council must train for 4 years. 

Unfortunately the general public prefer to be treated by medical acupuncturists because they have a western medical background but they are completely different. 

So if you have been treated by a medical acupuncturist I would definitely look for a different acupuncturist. 

I can't imagine how awful it must be to have morning sickness so badly. I have nausea constantly - all day - all night. I can eat but I feel so sick. It wakes me up at night. 

The only thing that helps it is eating. So I force food down but it's a struggle. 

I'm so sorry you suffer with it and wish I could offer some other advice. 

Xxx


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## Jazzbird

Ps I wouldn't suggest herbs because they are fairly pungent and strong. I would think you might end up vomiting them back up. 

The foods I find that help are cereal, porridge, toast, Banana, plain biscuits. I find it is better to eat little and almost constantly. 

X


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## HayleyJJ

Jazzbird said:


> Hi Hayley
> 
> I think if you have already tried acupuncture and had treatment from an acupuncturist registered with the British acupuncture council then I can't really recommend anything else.
> 
> There is a newish branch of acupuncture called medical acupuncture. Any doctor, physiotherapist or chiropractor can train in it but it only takes a few days to train. Acupuncturists who register with the British acupuncture council must train for 4 years.
> 
> Unfortunately the general public prefer to be treated by medical acupuncturists because they have a western medical background but they are completely different.
> 
> So if you have been treated by a medical acupuncturist I would definitely look for a different acupuncturist.
> 
> I can't imagine how awful it must be to have morning sickness so badly. I have nausea constantly - all day - all night. I can eat but I feel so sick. It wakes me up at night.
> 
> The only thing that helps it is eating. So I force food down but it's a struggle.
> 
> I'm so sorry you suffer with it and wish I could offer some other advice.
> 
> Xxx


Thank you so much xxx

I wish all people were as helpful and kind on here as you xxx

Have a fab new year xxx


----------



## Blythe

Hi ladiesi hope you all had a relaxing christmas and are ready for the new year. I hope that 2014 will see us all get our BFPs and everything else we wish for.

i have just brought a new supplement.

https://simplysolgar.co.uk/collecti...products/quercetin-complex-vegetable-capsules

it caught my eye as it had 50% offi noted it contains lots of fit c and bromeliad so i will take in 2WW. I also noticed upon researching it further that Quercetin has been shown to aid male fertility in ratsthat will do for me so i will be adding to DH's regime!


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## Jazzbird

Hello ladies! Missed you all this Xmas. I've spent it mostly in bed with 24 hour nausea and occasional vomiting. I'm not complaining but I never thought I would feel this rough. 

We had a stressful Xmas. DH's niece who is 1 was rushed to hospital with breathing problems on Boxing Day. I haven't seen my family yet much to my sisters annoyance (we haven't told anyone yet) but I can't even make it to the shops! 

Thinking of you all and hoping 2014 will be the year for everyone. 

Xxx


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## Briss

I had rather uneventful Christmas, except that I had to work on boxing day and am still stuck at the office. 

DH's duck was a success and it was nice to just stay at home with my feet up while DH was doing all the cooking. I could be happy if only he just stopped it with the beer. this one thing just drives me crazy and upsets me terribly. he says he is trying but I cant see that with him drinking daily. 

as last year, I was reading my Chinese horoscope for 2014 and it got me even more depressed, there is nothing to look forward to but more misery for poor dragons next year. 2014 is supposed to be the year of the horse. Apparently 2013 was a happy year for dragons (I sure did not notice that!) and 2014 will strip poor dragons of any remaining luck. Also, apparently DH and I will break up in August/September. I cant say I am surprised. depressed yes, surprised no. 

I am taking a break from vitamins. I am quite sure there is nothing good in taking them long term so I think I will only take a few essential ones next couple of months. 

My weight gain is quite annoying and very noticeable. When I lost weight in the summer I stupidly bought new clothes cos I thought I am going to stay slim for a while now. obviously none of this new clothes fit me any more. Still, I cant care enough to do anything about it. 

We are going to Spain later in the week to visit my MIL. It would be nice to go away but not sure I want to spend much time in my MIL's company. Luckily we will be staying at a hotel, at least some privacy. 

Wishing you all a very happy near year!


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## Jazzbird

Briss - horoscopes are rubbish! I'm a dragon too and apart from some happy news in December, the rest of the year has been really tough with DH's illness. 

Does it mean me and my oh will split up too in august? 

I hope not. 

Briss I'm praying for you this year and so hope you get some good news very soon. But don't read horoscopes - they are never accurate. 

Did you get the blood test results yet?


----------



## Blythe

It's official Chinese horoscopes are BS!!! I'm a rat and it looks like 2014 will be terrible so I'm choosing not to believe in it


----------



## Blythe

Jazzbird -I hope the sickness passes soon.....horrible to be laid up over Christmas. It will be great when you can tell everyone why you were keeping a low profile. :) 

Good advice re the horoscopes.....I have read through lots recently and taken nothing positive from any of them. 

Briss - I hear you on the supplements front. I'm feeling very done with it all and totally confused about the best way forward....i will be BDing tomorrow and that's it for this month. Usually I would be pushing for more BDing but moving forward with assisted fertility has taken the pressure off. 

I hope your time in Spain is ok and that the mil's company is bearable. And I hope work on the deal is progressing well. 

2014 simply has to be a better year


----------



## Jazzbird

Blythe you are so right - it's what you choose to believe in. My DH and I rented a house - no 13 and I was really worried it meant bad news for us. He told me that in China the number 13 is lucky. So he told me to believe that philosophy instead. We had a lovely 2 years in that house with our fair share of ups and downs. But if I had fixated on the unlucky 13 then perhaps I would only remember the bad.


----------



## gingmg

Hi ladies-
Well my IUI fell on Christmas morning, and it will be a miracle if I turn up pregnant this month because it was quite an ordeal. It took three different people to try to get the catheter in, I guess I have a retroverted uterus and it was hard to thread the catheter through my cervix. Some of the IUIs have been difficult, but most of the providers end up getting it through with some little tricks. This time, not so much. They had to call one of the doctors out of the OR when two other people were unable to get through. Luckily, he didn't have a problem and it finally went in. The problem is that by the time they got it in, it had already been two hours since the sperm had been thawed, so I don't know how good they were at that point. Kinda frustrating, but oh well. My wife was so funny trying to keep the vial warm while we were waiting for different people, made me realize what a caring mom she will be. Anway, now just waiting and hoping that by some miracle it worked anyway. 
The rest of my Christmas was good. It was the first time in over 10 years that I had all of Christmas off, so it was so nice to spend xmas at home with my family and not in the hospital. :) We are going skiing tomorrow for new year's. Can't wait!! New Years is one of my favorite holidays, it's the only holiday that the whole world celebrates. There is something so special about that, I don't know, I just love it.
Happy new year ladies. 2014 is going to be a good year for all of us, I just know it.


----------



## Blythe

Gingmg. Sorry the procedure took so long.....I had a similar situation with my hsg......he had to try 3 different sizes to find one that fit.....I assumed he finally settled on the largest!! Yesterday I had a smear and she struggled to find my cervix opening....it was rather uncomfortable but nothing near as bad as what yours sounded like. Please do not worry to much re the sperm&#8230;.my dh's last sample was produced on the morning in one hospital and then transported to another hospital where it was tested,&#8230;it was held in an incubated style fridge unit and there was at least 3 to 4 hours from producing to testing and a few million were still knocking around. I'm sure your wife did a grand job of keeping the sample nice and warm :)

I envy you going skiing over the new year break.....I have never been. My ny have always been based around vast quantities of alcohol. Tonight I will be home whilst DH goes out and Djs. I will probably be tucked up in bed by 9.30. 

I'm back on my ww from today.....I put on 5lbs over Xmas and so I am 11.7 now and feel awful just typing that out. I want to get down to 10 and feel more determined than ever this is the year that I make positive permanent changes....

Happy new year to you all :flower: next year one by one we will follow jazzbird and get our bfps :)


----------



## Briss

Happy New Year, ladies!! may 2014 bring us all that we desire. I hope you all had a good time last night. we stayed at home, I decided to leave the office early (despite having lots to do) and cook dinner. overall it was lovely, a bit quiet maybe cos we just ended up watching TV but at least there was no drama (last year we had a fight exactly at midnight...)


*Jazzbird*, i forgot you are born the same year and are also a dragon :) My DH says horoscopes are rubbish cos so many people cant share the same fortune. apparently two dragons cant leave together and my DH is also a dragon I guess that explains a lot :) anyway I stopped reading horoscopes just too depressing. 

I am sorry about your sickness and I hope it will pass soon but most likely after the first trimester. anyway, at least there is a very good reason for your sickness, just something to hold on to when you feel unwell. 

*Blythe*, BD is always so tricky but the urologist did say that every day is ideal for quality. he did not say how to achieve that though. i think if you could squeeze one more BD in that would be great. is there anyway you could encourage your DH to masturbate outside of fertile period? it would be great for IVF cycle cos they do not need a lot of sperm but the quality sperm which is achieved by frequent ejaculation. 

re vitamins, I think they are great short terms but we have been taking this stuff for years. surely it cant be good. anyway, I am off vitamins for a bit.

I am hoping we will have a good time in Spain although the prospect of seeing my MIL is off-putting. I am dreading she may mention the prospect of grandchildren... also, she is not a nice person and unfortunately she was visiting us when my father passed away and I was forced to be civil while all I wanted is to cry and scream, but she was only concerned with herself and could not understand how hard it was for me to have a conversation with her at that time. she made a scene that my DH was going to the funeral with me and was staying at my mum's rather than with her so she did not attend the funeral... I find it really hard to tolerate her and will have to prepare myself so i do not react to whatever she is going to say or do. 

re HSG and the difficulty in getting the catheter in, definitely mention this to your IVF doc, it's crucial that ET is completely uneventful and motionless, you should not feel anything if IVF is to be a success. I've been reading on this and it seems like ET is almost the most important thing as any disturbance to cervix causes uterus to contract which may kill the little embryo. you may want to consider mock ET so the doc finds his way around your cervix. 

*gingmg*, sorry your IUI was traumatic. hopefully it does not matter that much. in an IVF cycle a traumatic ET will affect the implantation cos it makes uterus contact but in an IUI cycle it's just the sperm going in not the embryo so hopefully it wont matter and the little guys will get where they need to. I can picture your wife trying to keep the vial warm :) so sweet! I am sure she did a brilliant job, the little swimmers were in good hands and felt loved :)

I used to love New Year more than anything else. I was planning the outfit and the right party to go to etc months in advance ... these days I cant care about any of that, I fell asleep before 2 am after a few glasses of champaign ... I just cant cope with partying and drinking these days.


----------



## Blythe

Happy new year :)

I was asleep by 10.30 but woken up by fireworks and text messages. My DH staggered in with his friend around midday. 

How dull. I'm also struggling to find anything decent in the tv today so watching back episodes of sex and the city. 

2014 is the year when it all comes together (I have decided!)


----------



## Briss

*Blythe*, just wanted to share Dovkav found some info on treatment of thin endometrium

To improve uterine blood flow which may boost endometrial development, low-dose aspirin (Weckstein et al., 1997) and vaginal sildenafil (Sher and Fisch, 2002) were suggested in cases of RIF with thin endometrium. Many freeze all embryos when the endometrium is less than 7 mm and transfer them after stimulation with high-dose estrogens. Vaginal administration of micronized estradiol to maximize estrogenic effect (Tourgeman et al., 2001) or antifibrotic treatment with pentoxifylline and high-dose vitamin E (Ledee-Bataille et al., 2002) has been shown to increase PR in cases with a thin endometrium.

https://humrep.oxfordjournals.org/con...1/12/3036.full

btw, I am watching back to back Pride and Prejudice :) you are quite right there is nothing on TV. but surprisingly i feel so warm and cozy on my sofa :) DH is still sleeping... I am going to make myself some pancakes! 2014 simply must be a great year for us all.


----------



## Blythe

I love the bbc adaptation......Jennifer ehle is the best Elizabeth Bennett by far.


----------



## Briss

totally agree. I did not like keira knightley's Elizabeth Bennett. it was an interesting interpretation but BBC's my absolute favorite and jennifer ehle is the best Elizabeth Bennett ever :)


----------



## BBbliss

Happy new year beautiful ladies! May this be the year the brings us the NEW life we all hope and wish for. 

Briss, I hope you enjoy your trip you deserve it. I'm also cutting way back on sups. I'm now down to Coq10 and larginine just about. I'm quite ok with that. 

Ging, good luck and I'm sorry you had such a stressful procedure, well go have some fun skiing and I hope this is it for you :)

Jazz, I hope you feel better. It's funny how pregnancy is so different for everyone and every preg is different, well I hope you don't get sick going past your first tri and can really enjoy watching the baby grow in you. It's such a magical time. :)

Blythe, yes! 2014 IS the year it will all come together! Remember! Three feet from gold :)

I spent a nice Christmas with family, I had everyone over for Christmas brunch at the new home and it was so nice. My pregnant sis is here staying with me, it's so nice since I won't see her again until the baby is born in June. Last night I spent new year at a big party with my whole family, a lot of people and kids, babies and pregnant cousins and everyone wishing me a baby this year, I really love that my family treats me as if I was in my early 30's still, hehe. 

I have my RE appointment tomorrow morning and I'll let you girls know how it went. I'm getting AF today, funny, first day of the year, first day of my cycle, well it really is a new beginning for us and I hope it brings new results. Positive results!

I'm of to the beach with my sister for our New Years traditional ceremony, we do every year where we get our feet wet in the ocean look out into the horizon, say our thanks and wishes and throw flowers into the ocean as an offering of gratitude to Mother Nature and Yemanja goddess of the sea. 

Happy New Year ladies! :)


----------



## Blythe

I have moved on to The Sound of Music....I had forgotten how much I fancied captain Von trapp


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## Jazzbird

Happy New Year lovely ladies!

I spent mine trying to eat DHs cooked dinner and then in bed rolling around with stomach cramps alone!

I am really struggling with constant nausea and hunger and then when I do eat my stomach goes into spasm. I won't be able to go to work next week if it continues. I get virtually no sleep as the hunger/nausea wakes me up every hour. 

I know how lucky I am but I'm finding this really hard. I have never felt so ill in all my life. 

Just praying it goes at the end of this trimester which will be end of jan.

I spent New Year's Day in bed too, force feeding myself all day long. 

DH has just put on chicken cordon bleu and chips. But the smells are starting to make me retch again. 

I hope you all have a lovely new year and hope everyone falls pregnant like dominos in 2014. 

Love you gals!


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## Jazzbird

Ps BBbliss - I love your new year ritual although I can't imagine doing it in uk! We have bad storms and dipping my toes in Bognor Regis dirty beach water does not appeal!


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## Blythe

Jazzbird. Oh no I'm so sorry you are so sick at the moment. It sounds horrid and I hope it passes soon and you can just get on with enjoying your pregnancy. 

Bbbliss - lovely to read your post. What a lovely New Years tradition you have.....totally jealous as London has been grey and stormy all day. All the very best with the consultation tomorrow and I look forward to reading your update. 

Briss. Many thanks for posting dovtavs bit about improving lining.... I take aspirin intermittently along with the vit e. I was very interested to see that though do thanks again. I have been been keeping an eye on the her thread and was upset to see her recent bfn. Did you see that 3kids has her de bfp .....she told me she had been following an anti inflamitory diet and drinking milk with tumeric every morning. I'm not sure I can manage that but will be doing what I can in terms of cutting caffeine and watching sugar intake. I have now eaten the last of the Christmas threats and back to being healthy and losing weight. I am making a skirt in 2 sizes smaller than I am now and aim to be wearing it by march!!


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## Briss

I am packing for Spain and almost crying, nothing fits :( fatty bits are hanging out of my trousers and tops, it's a nightmare. I just need a couple of things that I could wear without getting my fatty bits stick out. I am really glad it's cold and alt least I can cover it up in a coat. why did I put all my weight back on again? I think i may join you on your weight loss journey cos it's starting to get to me.

I am not giving up sugar or coffee! I had enough, none of it is going to make my DH's sperm better. I should stop torturing myself cos it does not make any difference. i was hoping all these things will keep me young ish while I wait for him to get his sperm sorted but clearly with FSH rising it's not happening coffee or no coffee so i am through with lifestyle changes. I mean if I was totally unhealthy and ate at McDonald every day sort of thing then it would make sense to make some lifestyle changes but apart from overdoing it on the chocolate front and having my morning cappuccino (or two) I am quite healthy i think. also having gone through IVFs, i could observe that my blood-flow was always good, lining was good, hormones in order etc etc, there was nothing in particular on my side that could be a problem apart from the obvious - not enough eggs and quitting coffee will not make me produce more eggs. 

Sorry, I am just so angry all the time. I know why but I cant help it.


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## threebirds

Heres to the new year girls! Im gonna stick with the TCM, and really work at losing a stone, and we'll go for our 3rd ivf/icsi soon, this time with Lister, London. 
X


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## gingmg

Good to hear from everyone. I think I was asleep by ten last night. It was one cold day skiing today, but it was a nice way to start the year and we had a lot of fun. I am totally on board with operation loose weight/feel better about myself/eat cleaner. These are my goals for 2014: Limit sugar, do yoga, laugh more.


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## Kat S

Briss said:


> totally agree. I did not like keira knightley's Elizabeth Bennett. it was an interesting interpretation but BBC's my absolute favorite and jennifer ehle is the best Elizabeth Bennett ever :)

You are SO right!! P&P '95 forever!!!


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## Kat S

Blythe said:


> It's official Chinese horoscopes are BS!!! I'm a rat and it looks like 2014 will be terrible so I'm choosing not to believe in it

I'm a rat, too. 2013 was absolutely wretched (lost my baby, my favorite cat died, and then my dear uncle died), so I can't have two bad years in a row. Don't believe it!


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## Blythe

2013 was truly awful..onwards to better days for us 1972 girls ey Kat :flower:


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## BBbliss

here is my RE update:

my DF and I sat with this Dr that went on and on about how great he is, how he's number one in this state and number five in the nation, then he sent me off to another room for his nurse to do an ultrasound and she kept saying "wow, wow,amazing", a couple of times as she counted my follicles. I went back to the room and he went over the IVF process and then told me i had less then ONE% chance because my eggs have been sitting in my body for over 40 years and they are not good. The only way he will do it is if i use donor eggs. REALLY? so he said it doesn't matter that my hormones and egg count are the the same as a 20 year old, my eggs are NOT good and "there's a reason I'm number one", that reason is, if you go by the statistics alone my chances are low and that could hurt his success rate. well, i was very upset leaving his office, OH and he charged us for TWO consultations and said it is because there are two of us and each gets charged a full fee. That to me was just unethical. we are not going back that's for sure. 
we have another appt with my first dr and I know he will take us. we are not done yet. Our next appt is next week so we'll see...


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## gingmg

What a bunch of horse sh*t!!! I wouldn't go back to him either. I'm really sorry BBbliss, I hope your next appointment is more focused on how they can help you and not about the clinics'sucess rates. And charging double? What is that about?!!


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## BBbliss

ging, tell me about it! I'm really furious! i was just on an statistics site and worse case scenario the number is 5% not 1% like he wanted me to believe, so he could "sell" me someone else's eggs. I have a friend right now with a natural pregnancy at my same age 44, so going by his "statistics" my friend is a medical miracle since she didn't even have treatment. He not even for one moment even mentions or considered I could be an exception to the rule by stats alone, not even to say maybe he would have a better chance since my hormones look good. I'll let you guys know what happens with my next appointment with old dr but I do not believe ALL my eggs are bad.


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## Blythe

BBbliss - this guy is a knob! at least half of a successful treatment is the bedside manner of all those involved Why on earth did he even see you.he should just state in his clinic rules he does not treat over 40s. I feel angry too. Doesn't this guy know that midwife's clinics are full of over 35s nowadays

As you say its all about stats and given his appalling treatment of you i would not want to add to his successful stats anyhow. 

Briss - there are few things worse than going through your clothes and seeing that your body has changed and they no longer fit properlyits totally depressing. Losing weight and keeping it off is bloody hard work but there is no better time to address these things than a new year. i hope Spain is lovely and that your MIL is being nice.


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## Jazzbird

BBbliss, echoing what everyone else is saying. I think you should raise a formal complaint. If this is his policy, it should be published so you don't waste consultation fees finding out he won't treat you.

There is HUGE variation with fertility and age - this guy is just protecting his precious stats. Well there are lies, damned lies and statistics - no wonder his stats are so high if he only treats women and men within his stringent guidelines.

I would definitely complain - and explain that had he openly publicised that he only treats 40+ women with donor eggs, you simply would not have booked an appointment with him.

Hugs to you BBbliss, not a very nice way to start the new year. I'm confident you will find the right professional to treat you.

XXX


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## BBbliss

girls, thank you so much for your input. you are right! but he took his sweet time with us making his case and trying to convince us our only option is donor egg. He is a great sales man thats for sure. I have read that if a woman has AFC over 9 and FSH under10, it's encouraged to use own eggs regardless of age. what infuriates me is that he took me in for an ultrasound that cost $400 knowing it was irrelevant and that it didn't even matter how many follicles I had, in fact he ignored the results. My DF was mad they wanted to charge us over $600 for the visit. We paid $100 an DF is writing a letter to them on monday demanding a refund using some of the arguments you ladies pointed out.


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## melly2

BBbliss said:


> girls, thank you so much for your input. you are right! but he took his sweet time with us making his case and trying to convince us our only option is donor egg. He is a great sales man thats for sure. I have read that if a woman has AFC over 9 and FSH under10, it's encouraged to use own eggs regardless of age. what infuriates me is that he took me in for an ultrasound that cost $400 knowing it was irrelevant and that it didn't even matter how many follicles I had, in fact he ignored the results. My DF was mad they wanted to charge us over $600 for the visit. We paid $100 an DF is writing a letter to them on monday demanding a refund using some of the arguments you ladies pointed out.

I am of the opinion that with your numbers, donor eggs should not be the first option. Like the other said, it's all about his statistics and that's it. My grandma had a child naturally at 46 (grandpa was 56). This is not an impossible task.


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## BBbliss

You ladies are THE BEST! I'm so glad I'm here in such great company. The best honest advice from the people who have had experience and done their home work themselves. Had I knot known you, I might have bought into his sales man philosophy. HUGs to all you girls!


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## Delphine11

BBbliss - I''ve just read your post here about your sh*t of a doctor! Sorry to be rude, but he sounds horrible!

His policy about 'charging double because there's two of you' is the biggest load of rubbish I've ever heard! Find yourself another Dr a.s.a.p. This guy sounds like he's there to help himself not you. You don't need that. You need someone who is 100% focused on helping YOU as an individual, not as a number, and not as someone who might mess up his statistics.

As for what he said about you needing donor eggs - NO! I don't believe that. I don't know much about you other than what I've read on here, but NOTHING I've read that you've posted has made me think that. I'm older than you and I've been doing a LOAD of reading, and I wouldn't think that _I_ need DE yet, let alone you. Yes, you're not 25yrs old, but just because you're 44 does NOT mean you're some kind of write-off. I bet another BETTER doctor would say something completely different.

As for that Dr you saw and his 'number 1' comment. I DEFINITELY wouldn't rate him so high, from what you've said! A good Dr is knowledgable and keen to help every single one of his patients for THEIR benefit, not his/hers.

Sorry to rant on, but it made me so angry on your behalf when I read what you wrote. Forget this guy! Put that experience behind you and move forward :hugs:

I honestly don't think for one moment that you should be thinking about DE. Nor do I think your eggs (or any woman's here) are old and cr*p just because we're in our 40s. 

Best wishes to everyone on this thread for a happy and fertile 2014. xxx


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## BBbliss

Delphine, you are an angel. You nailed it!


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## Jazzbird

BBbliss I was also thinking that the only reason he tested your hormone levels and did an ultrasound was to build evidence for his case to refuse treatment. He obviously did not expect such great results! 

You obviously do have the profile of a young woman. I bet he felt like a bit of a prat deep down when your results came in.


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## gingmg

11 dpo, bfn. I am so incredibly sick of the bfns. I'm starting to think double pink lines are a myth. Looks like I start BCP for IVF this week, which is both scary and exciting.


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## Blythe

Gingmg I'm so sorry the iui did not work......although you still have a couple of days for things to change.


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## Jazzbird

Ging - 11 dpo could be too early. Are you using Internet cheapies? Try and wait it out a few more days. 

Hugs to you xxx


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## Blythe

I have been feeling quite groggy in recent daysalmost hungover. I looked at my supplements and the only new one is my Quercetin. i have just read the following on some bloke's website, having read elsewhere it could help!!:

_Women seeking to become pregnant should not take supplemental quercetin, nor should they load up on fruits and vegetables that are high in quercetin, such as grapefruit, apples, and onions. This plant compound counteracts the enzyme hyalouronidase, which helps the egg break free of the follicle that holds it._

This may explain why i have had a few nearly positive PPKs in recent days but not a clear one and no clear temp shift. It has probably delayed ovulationi hope by not taking it today i am able to finally ovulate. I am scaling right back to the essentials and stopping with the crazy supplement regime!


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## gingmg

I believe in essentials, and am starting to think the rest is irrelevent. Dog sitting for my friend for the weekend and found myself roaming all around bnb today, even in sections that don't apply. Does anyone else do this? I can't help it. 
I know it still might be too early but I just don't think so. The IUI itself was a disaster and I think my RE made me trigger too early. I wanted to wait an extra day or two to have them grow more, but she didn't want the smaller ones to catch up and risk more than twins. I respect her and hate her for that. I feel like I never had a chance.


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## BBbliss

Jazzbird, you are right about that Dr as he never thought I'd have such healthy AFC for my age. He never even said anything positive about it, he was not in the room when the nurse acted amazed. I even had less then last time.My count now was 15.

ging, its so frustrating isn't it? as many times as you have been trying if I had any say I would have gone for the more eggs released, just better chances. I know you and all of us here are just tired of waiting month after month and nothing.

blythe, all the info on supplements are so contradicting at times, there's been so much negative press on the subject it's hard to decide what to get, what to take, how much, and even when we decide we don't really have a way to know if what we are taking is what it says on the bottle.


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## Briss

Hello, ladies, I am back. Spain was lovely, so sunny and warm, I wish we stayed longer. Surprisingly we did not argue (as usual while on holidays) so overall it was a success minus AF starting a day early. Still, I had 13 day LP which is normal for me so I am satisfied with my cycle finaly recovering from IVF meds. 

*threebirds*, I am also thinking of going to Lister for our 3rd IVF. would be great to be cycle buddies. Do you see any improvement with TCM? I wonder if it had any effect on your high FSH? 

*Kat S*, 2013 was not a good year for you that's for sure, here is hoping that 2014 would be just great for us all, we are all due some good fertility related news here. 

*BBbliss*, I was reading your updates while in Spain and was getting so angry with your doc! how dare he!! he should not be allowed to practice. Unfortunately he is not an exception among IVF practitioners. in the end of the day it's a profit making business and they need to have good ratings to attract new patients. it's obvious that younger eggs give you more chances and he is not concerned with the moral side of this for you, only with his success rates. outrages! IVF clinics are getting more and more criticism nowadays for pushing donor eggs at older ladies and poor respondents. there are ways to achieve pregnancy with your own eggs because your stats are great, simply great! yes, you do have egg quality issue due to age (we all have) which means that not every egg you release is able to be fertilised. The risk is that you may need more than one attempt. I have no idea where he got "less than ONE% chance" from? it's so random! However, the main reason why you are a good IVF candidate is cos of your tubes. I am quite sure you would have got a natural BFP by now if it was not for the blocked tube which limits your chances and that's why IVF is perfect for you cos it bypasses this issue. When clinics offer donor egg that just means that they reached their potential and they have no expertise and knowledge on what to do. It's their way to acknowledge their limits, that's all. you have only one option here is to get as far away from this doc as possible. He is useless to you. I even doubt he can make a 20 year old pregnant. "there's a reason I'm number one" &#8211; yes, and that's because he does not take on patients with any kind of difficulty. he probably only offers one fits all treatment plan that works only for certain kind of patents and he is trying to fit them into this plan. stay away from him. also, charging for TWO consultations?? what's this about? never heard anything like this before. I guess he knew you are not coming back for the treatment so was trying to take as much cash from you as possible there and then. I'd definitely leave lots of bad reviews so other people are warned about his unethical methods. 

*Blythe*, I was not that much upset about the weight, it's annoying but not the end of the world. it's just life in general not treating me well and having to go through only bad news for quite a while now. I do get something positive from time to time but only about minor things, all the major stuff is just bad news. I am so tired of this misery. If I could give up I would have done it at least a year ago because I do not have it in me to carry on. I do carry on cos there is nothing else I can do. 

MIL was OK. I really liked Spain, it's so sunny and quite cheap. People are so relaxed. One thing that made me cry every day is children, Spanish people have lots and lots of children&#8230; that was a hard part and it's hard wherever I go. I am reading this book "the power of now" there are bits about accepting the present but how can I accept that people have children and I do not? There is no way to ever accept this and be OK with this, I am just going to stay miserable and it will get worse with age I think.

I do not think I ever tried Quercetin and or even read about it. sounds exotic. I am sorry you had side effects. Your most recent AFC was so good, maybe stick to what you have been taking cos it seems to be working for you? Also, it might be the Chinese herbs helped with your AFC? so it might not be a total waste after all. there is lots of controversial info about vitamins. when I started on this journey I was very careful about Vitamin D cos I read that it can be toxic and even lethal in larger doses. Then I ended up taking 4,000 a day!! and it was fine. who knows. At the moment I am more concerned with my liver having to clean up all this supps from my system. I think I will try sticking to greens and green juices as they do have lots of vitamins. cant take any more wheatgrass juice though, I literally feel sick even thinking about it. 

I agree that your chart looks very unusual. you usually get your +OPK earlier and your pre O temp is lower. iot could be supps messing up your cycle. 

*gingmg*, skiing is lovely, what a great start to the year! I love your goals for 2014! I think mine would be quite similar: obviously get pregnant and have a healthy baby (or two), would be nice to limit sugar but I know that's not going to happen, definitely do yoga, laugh more &#8211; love this one! I would like to lose 3-4 kg.

11 DPO can be still early, I did not get two lines until 13 DPO with my chemical. with IUI/IVF you just never know, even most hopeless cases can still end up with a BFP and sometimes everything goes well and you get a BFN. Wait a couple of days and test with FRER to be sure. I had a couple of quiet months at work and was reading the entire B&B content, even the irrelevant parts. did not do me any good though but helped pass the time

*jazzbird*, how are you? feeling any better?

*Juniper*, how is it going with the new guy? any news?

*afm*, one more week until we get DH's and mine genetic results. I am already losing sleep over this.


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## gingmg

Briss- glad you had a nice time in Spain. It sounds so lovely to be able to go to different countries so easily. I hope you can stay busy for this next week until the results of the testing come back.


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## Blythe

Today I am back at work and back in the juices :) I will take FA and leave it there and get the rest from a diet of fruit and veg. 

I also realised that I was taking fertilaid for the first timd this cycle. I should realise that as someone who has regular cycles I am quite lucky so I should not mess with that. I feel totally crap this cycle and have clearly messed up my ovulation/prog levels. Serves me right!!!


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## Briss

*gingmg*, you are so right sometimes I forget what a blessing it is to live in Europe, so many interesting places to visit and most only 1-2 hour flight away. DH suggested we go to New Zealand &#8211; 27 hour flight!! leaving alone the cost (I'd rather spend this money on IVf but DH says we already spent so much and it only made things worse cos my cycle was screwed up, he has a point&#8230;)

I've made a decision to go back to my chocolate diet for the next month (maybe two but I hope one month will be enough to go down back to size 8). I realised that I am so angry and frustrated anyway so may as well be hungry, also DH has been drinking lots of beer and even if he stops now it's still going to take a few months to recover his sperm so I may as well use this time to get back into some sort of acceptable shape. I had my doubts cos I did not want to be hungry while doing IVf but I do not think we are ready for the next IVf yet. My motivation came from looking through my pictures, 4-5 years ago I was slim and looked young (ish), last couple of years my pictures are all horrible with clothes quite obviously not fitting well and does not look flattering at all, plus I aged so much, have clear lines. When I put on weight my face somehow changes and does not look cute anymore. I do look prettier when I am slimmer. DH also decided to join my juicing efforts and agreed to drink greens! I will eat a piece of meat/fish, unlimited green salads and chocolate with herbal teas totalling 800/900 calories a day. (not healthy I know but that's something I can stick to and it worked for me last time) I am starting today&#8230; 

*Blythe*, I will be leaving fruit out of my diet cos they are high in calories and it's so easy to overdo it and not lose any weight in the end. veggies are safer. cucumbers here I come! 

fertilaid is supposed to be good? I am giving it to DH from time to time. I was going to be completely off vitamins but since I am starting dieting I think I should at least take pregnacare conception to compensate for the limited food intake. 

I do not know what to make of your chart, could it be that you ovulated but your post O temp is on the lower side this cycle? 

I have no sex drive, do not understand it cos usually at this point I'd be all for it, now I do not feel a thing.


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## Blythe

I was taking the fertilaid for women:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Fairhaven-...UTF8&qid=1389114353&sr=8-1&keywords=fertilaid

i think it has vitex in it so that is probably, along with the other one i was taking the thing that has affected my cycle. looking at my chart now i do think i ovulated on CD 13 as per but the very noticeable EWCM a couple of days later threw me..i suppose it is possible to get this post ovulation. Im so done with overanalysing everything.i just have low post ovulation temps and so i just hope now that my cycle will be the same length as usual as i have my IUI/IVF consult next tues and i would like to start a treatment the following cycleso fingers crossed next cycle.

i went into work with good intentions but a guy there brought some chocs in and i raided them. Oh briss i would love to be a size 8it is a shock to see old pics.or i always find it quite upsetting when i catch my reflection when i wasn't expecting to see it [ie when i haven't sucked everything in and working a slightly surprised look on my face].

How much choc per day are you allowing yourself on diet Briss?


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## Briss

I think you are right vitex can affect your cycle easily. Did you do OPK this cycle? I guess we will just have to wait and see if there will be any temp shift in the next couple of days and if not, I guess that mean you O'ed already. It's very strange that supps are messing your cycle up cos your charts are usually perfect. 

EWCM is so tricky, I usually have some kind of CM most days and some of it looks like EWCM so I never really know whether this is the right kind. I get it before and after O so I never really check CM anymore, too confusing for me. Sex drive is much easier to determine &#8230;

It's so exciting that you might be starting your IVf/IUi next cycle. I will keep everything crossed for you!

I hear you on chocs, my office is very close to the kitchen and it's a struggle every time I pass by cos everyone brings some treats in the mornings and afternoons&#8230; 

basically, I allowed myself up to 800 calories a day (900 tops!) and usually after lunch I can see how many calories are left for chocolate. Today I have been exceptionally good (obviously it's the first day) and only had 500 calories and it's already 6.30 so basically when I get home I can have 60 gr of chocolate which is approximately 300 calories. That would be my dinner&#8230;

I ate so far:
latte 190
Sea bass and veggies 190
apple 70
choc 50 

I have plenty of friends who are size 12 and look slim, I guess it's cos they are tall. On me even size 10 looks like fatty fat fat!


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## Blythe

I never check my cm as after sex I have no clue what's what. I noticed it this cycle during a loo break and thought wow!!! 

Anyhow, well done on the calorie front.....I am genuinely very impressed. I have had:

2 x choc Mousses
4 x mint chocolate fondants
1 x apple
Chicken stir fry
1 x large green juice
1 x large bag if mixed dried fruit and nuts
2 x packets of crisps
2 x teas with sugar

Bloody hell :blush:

I will do better tomorrow!

I did opk this cycle but was using the silly clear blue new ones that are meant to flash to indicate impending fertile days followed by solid smily face. They are rubbish and whilst the stick looked positive it gave me a blank circle not even a flashing one. I will not be buying them again.


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## Briss

I just weighed in and oh horror, I am heavier than I was before I started dieting last May... I did notice it but I was hoping I just put on a few extra kg, not everything I lost + some extra. wtf!!! I actually think IVF meds are to blame to a large extent for my weight gain, I did eat a lot of choc eclairs but I was still putting it on gradually and then after IVF I could just see the difference in a month. :( basically i have 7 kg to lose now so maybe 2 months rather than one. 

I am so hungry ... time for some more chocolate :)

I am trying to get used to rose rooibos tea. The colour is fantastic but the taste is rather peculiar. Apparently a very good drink during pregnancy. It's alkaline and contains low levels of tannins, so is less likely to interfere with iron absorption. It also contains significant amounts of antioxidants. and most importantly for me supposed to help with mild depression :)

At home I only drink loose tea but at work I have to buy tea bags and apparently they are made from paper which is a blend of wood and vegetable fibres. Both of which are usually chlorine-bleached, and as a result may contain small amounts of toxic chlorine compounds. so much for healthy living but drinking loose tea at work is just not feasible really. They recommend buying teabags from oxygen-bleached (non-chlorine) teabag paper or teabags from synthetic fibres. To me synthetic tea bags do not sound healthy at all. just one more thing to worry about.


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## Briss

Just had a piece of chicken with veggies and feel SO hungry!! it's only day 2&#8230;. stuffing myself with cabbage. I looked through my notes on my weight and actually I managed to keep my weight loss up until end of October and basically between November and January I somehow managed to put on 6 kg. IVF is definitely to blame I think. I would not mind looking like an elephant if I was pregnant but having gone through 2 IVf with no pregnancy to show for it, screwed cycle and weight gain, just depressing 

I've never tried the new clear blue OPK, from your description they do not sound appealing at all. 

DH and I had a very serious argument last night, he got home drunk after promising to quit. I just cant do this any more! I know bringing up a child on my own with a donor father figure is tough but at least I will have a child. Dh finally acknowledged that he does seem to have a problem with alcohol and cannot always control it. It seems like a breakthrough but it does not really help me cos it's like he has a licence to drink now. I told him he has to chose between me and beer because I really cant waste my childbearing years on this nonsense. I feel like years go by and I am still stuck saying and doing the same thing again and again. Nothing is changing, just seems so hopeless.


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## Blythe

Oh Briss i am sorry to hear about the argument and the fact you have to keep asking him to knock the beer on the head. It is so very difficult if drinking is part of the working culture but surely he must appreciate how very important this is to you. How bloody frustrating for you.

I was so inspired by your eating plan that today i have only eaten

1 x cookie
1 x black coffee no sugar
lots of nettle tea
lots of water
tub of cottage cheese and pineapple
porridge with skimmed milk

i know thats heading towards the 900 cals but i think i can loose on 1200. i have to say i feel less bogged down than i did yesterday and it feels good to have some hunger. I must remember that being hungry for a few hours won't hurt me so i must just find a way of pushing through it instead of grabbing bad choice snacks.

i had not even considered IVF and its link to weight gainas if it failing is not enough to tackle.


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## Briss

Blythe, I hear you on hunger, it's really getting to me cos it's constant so I am trying to associate it with something positive in my mind like e.g. every time I think about how bloody hungry I am I imagine my fatty bits getting slimmer and recall my pictures from the past and think how I am getting closer to that body etc I need to get into that state when hunger is normal part of my being.

I am really impressed with your food intake for today, I think you are right 1,000-1,200 calories a day is a healthy way to lose weight. I have no idea why I cant eat that much, I guess it's cos I am small I just know from my previous efforts that anything above 1,000 and I am not going to lose any weight at all.

My today's intake so far 400:

coffee 40
chicken and veggies 290
apple 70

I have not had any chocolate yet!! still have about 300-400 calories to spend on chocolate tonight, so far so good. 

DH is super nice today obviously cos he is feeling guilty but we have been here before and it's not going to last. he looks at his mates who all drink and have children so naturally he keeps saying beer does not matter. I stopped trying to take care of his feelings and just keep telling him that his SA is much worse than most men he just has to accept it. I pray his genetic test comes back as normal and the doc can put him on some treatment. I do not know what else can help us.


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## BBbliss

hello girls! I hear you on putting on weight and not hating recent photos of myself. I'm petite and if I put on 2kg everything changes, my face looks puffy on photos, the cellulite takes over and I don't like looking at myself. All that has to change and I'm going back to the gym for real now. a few months ago I worked out 6days a wk and looked great, I just have to get back on that horse, and like you Briss, I have to eat way less then 1.200cal to loose, that or run a 5k a day and its just been hard to get started again. I hope you've kept up with yoga Ging, I'm proud of you! I also love your discipline with your diet Blythe, I can't be that disciplined with food, my only solution is going back to the gym.

I'm now getting ready for my appointment with original RE DR. I've been doing some reading and I think, like you Briss, I have changed my mind and may prefer a MiniIVF, I have read its recommended for older IVF patients. 

Briss, thank you for your input, that Dr infuriated me so much, but I'm putting it behind and moving on. I do think if my DF had strong sperm I would have gotten pg already, even with one good tube. 

I'll give you girls an update as soon as I'm back today.

BTW, keep reading The power on Now Briss, it has helped me and a couple of my close friends in time of crises. one of the secrets to being present is not judging the moments or comparing it to other's circumstances. Everyone has a story and there's contrast in all our unique experiences. Honor this moment, it's just what is right now, until the next moment unfolds with it's challenges, blessings and gifts.


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## melly2

Hi Briss,

I thought I would quickly update you, since we're sorta dealing with the same thing. Since my insurance coverage changed at the beginning of the year, my DH and I met with a new clinic which would be covered under our coverage. We were really, really happy with the clinic. They are opposed to more aggressive means of IVF and only implant ONE embryo. This was very important for me since I absolutely do not want twins. That idea just sounds horrible to me. ;-) Anyway, I have 17 healthy follicles which is apparently better than average for someone my age. This makes me a good candidate. They will stimulate with some hormones, and this is the part that makes me a bit nervous because my cousin did the same thing and went into overstimulation and actually had to be hospitalized. I notified the doctor of this and they will have me on less of a hormone. 

Also, after the retrieval they will freeze it and send them off to the lab for genetic testing and then pick the healthiest. I'm all for genetic testing, and according to new research, there is a 60% of live pregnancy when there is genetic testing on the embryo. At our age, our eggs have more defective and genetic abnormalities; hence, the reason for miscarriages. 

I will start the birth control in a couple weeks; so we'll be starting that cycle then. Wow...I'm nervous, but I know this is our only option. So it goes.


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## BBbliss

so, back at my original RE today and I really like him. I think he's honest and caring. He gave us all the statistics, the 5% success rate at my age etc, but before I said anything he did say he believes you should give your own body a chance and not go for donor right away (I never even told him about the other RE). I like his philosophy much better. He went on with his recommendations but said in the end he"ll do what we want. PATIENT FIRST! what a difference!
he recommended we do regular IVF and try to collect more then one or two as supposed to natural or miniIVF. again, because of my age my egg quality deteriorates rapidly and time is of the essence. I haven't decided yet, we're going to talk about it tonight and should let them know tomorrow so I can start right away.

mellly, good luck, looks like we are on the same boat here. We talked about genetic testing but the price just jumps up from there and we are paying out of pocket. I'd def do it if out ins. cored it.


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## gingmg

BBliss- I am glad your appointment with your original RE went much better. Sound like you are getting ready to start one way or another, depending on which protocol you choose? 

Meli- good luck, keep us posted!

Today is CD 1. I am excited to be starting IVF, but I was still sad that this last IUI wasn't successful. I cried a lot today. I am starting a mind/body program for infertility that will line up during this IVF course, I had the initial consult today and I think it is going to really help. They meet weekly and do yoga, meditation, and other stress relief activities, so I'm hoping it will help keep me somewhat sane throughout this process.That's all I got for now, it was a long/emotional day and my eyes are swollen from crying so much. Tomorrow will be better.


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## Blythe

BBBliss - very exciting and a much more positive meeting :) please update on whether you have decided to go for it.I dare say for most 40+ year olds the stats are depressing but surely your stats would push the odds well up in your favor.having stalked many an IVF thread it all seems like luck regardless of age etc

There is so much to think abouti have my consultation next tues and my mind is aching through all the thinkingmostly about the money. i am probably going to go forward with it and then i know i have tried everything.


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## BBbliss

Blythe, I'm with you on that, I think it's more luck then age. I know my numbers are good and like my Dr said its like a lottery at this point and there's no way of knowing what you are going to get. I read an article once that said it's like a bowl of lucky charm cereal and you may take a spoon full and no "lucky charm" one time and a rainbow, a heart and a shooting star next. Honestly i didn't want to be doing this, but with 0%morph it's our only hope. We ordered more supplments and he's still taking them in the mean time, but DF sent an email to the nurse today telling them we are going forward with it. 

after my consult now I'm mostly thinking about the money too. It's so expensive! and while my clinic is honest and still respect the patient letting you decide what's best, they do, in my opinion overcharge for some procedures.

here we go! so nervous!

ging, I just wanted to give you a hug, just let it go now and let's look forward. It looks like you have a great plan, my Dr seams to think having a positive attitude and doing things to stimulate your natural endorphins help. So let's cheer each other up here. we're going to need that, I know I will XOXO


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## Briss

*BBbliss*, your original RE sounds much better. I also agree that with your stats stim IVF might give you a better chance. 

*mellly*, excellent news on insurance! It's so important that you are happy with your clinic, I think it plays its part in your success. 17 follicles is fantastic! I do not think you are in danger of overstimulation, I think it's for women who have 30-50 follicles growing. why are you so against twins?

*gingmg*, I am sorry you have been crying. failed IUI is tough. Hopefully IVF will bring you a BFP on first go. I am really impressed with your mind/body program. keep us posted, I am so interested just cant motivate myself. 

*Blythe*, with your stats I'd definitely try stim IVF. it's hard to say whether it'll work the first time but then you may even have a few embryos to freeze. it's important to raise your lining issue early on so they adjust the protocol if possible. money is obviously an issue but even though Create is cheaper than other clinics I cannot recommend it. It's a bit risky if you only have one go. There are a few people there who know what they are doing but there is no guarantee you will get to be treated by them. It's amazing how i read so many positive reviews and got so disappointed.

afm, still hungry... so very very hungry


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## melly2

Briss said:


> *BBbliss*, your original RE sounds much better. I also agree that with your stats stim IVF might give you a better chance.
> 
> *mellly*, excellent news on insurance! It's so important that you are happy with your clinic, I think it plays its part in your success. 17 follicles is fantastic! I do not think you are in danger of overstimulation, I think it's for women who have 30-50 follicles growing. why are you so against twins?


Good, I'm happy you think 17 follicles is enough. I was really worried about the over stimulation since my cousin had such a horrible experience. About the twins, I'm only against it because it's a lot more dangerous pregnancy and just hard all the way around. My brother had twins last year (with IVF help) and it just looks soooooo much harder with two babies. Not sure I'm up for that.


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## gingmg

Thanks ladies. I'm not sure why yesterday was so hard, I think just having that consult for the program stirred up a lot, then having to go over my IVF cycle instructions. And get this, they left the instructions on my voicemail! The nurse had to call back 4 times to get all my instructions in. I would never leave that kind of message for someone, I would want to talk to them live, but whatever. 
I just wanted to share some of the things that the NP leading this mind/body program talked about yesterday. As far as diet, it's things we all know, but lots of water, greens, orange/yellow veges, nuts, fruits, and limiting sugars and white flours. So carbs are ok in moderation but to make sure they are whole grains, with 3 grams of fiber. Dairy isn't great, but to have full fat dairy if you are going to eat dairy, or at least 2%. Something about how our bodies have to process dairy if the fat is taken out of it causes us to have to make more insulin and actually having too many spikes up and down of sugar and insulin have negative affect on fertility. She said that following a Mediterranean diet has been shown to increase fertility and overall health- I keep seeing this, but haven't looked up all the specifics. And as far as desserts/and or sweets, if you want them, eat them right after a meal so that your body was already going to produce the insulin for the meal and didn't have to do it again two hours later. 
As far as the supplements, she believes in the essentials but thinks everything else should come from food. Prenatal multi vit, DHA, and co Q10 she was ok with- but wants me to have my vit D level checked to see if I actually still need it, and wants me to stop the vit E before retrieval because of the increase risks of bleeding. The extra folic acid I take she said was fine to give me peace of mind because I am a pediatric nurse, but didn't think it was necessary. She actually had me add a fish oil, EPA, because it has a positive effect on mood, but it's not safe in pregnancy, so to stop after egg retrieval. She said lifting depression and anxiety has been linked to higher success rates. Also, she wants me to do acupuncture before and after transfer. It may or may not help, but some studies have shown it to help, so she thought it was worth trying. And I am to start a journal of the things I am grateful for, the more in detail I describe it, the better. I'll keep you posted on anything else this group has to say...


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## Briss

*melly*, from my reading on IVF (which is a lot of reading!), the ideal outcome of stim IVF is not more than 15 eggs. having said that 17 follicles does not mean 17 eggs as not all of the follicles will have eggs, some will stop growing in the process so I think you will get somewhere between 8-12 eggs and hopefully at least 5 good quality embryos to chose from. My numbers are completely random and not scientific at all, just from my observations of other women's stim cycles outcomes. I am sure twins are hard to manage, a friend left me with her baby twins literally for 5 min while she went to pee and it was really stressful cos they moved in different direction each trying to kill herself as quickly as possible I was running between them trying to secure one while the other was about to drop off the sofa and yet I'd go for any number of babies at this point although it does not seem to be an option for me. 

*gingmg*, leaving instruction on smb's voicemail is not ideal particularly when this is your first IVF. I was so scares cos I was sure I will mess something up so I was asking the same thing again and again until it was completely settled in my head. lots to take in. I am sure you can call them back if you have any questions. My clinic provide me with emergency number which I used frequently at night when I was panicking about something or other. 

I am surprised that fish oil are not safe in pregnancy? it's usually recommended together with multi vit. 

I really like the idea of a journal of the things to be grateful for but cant help thinking this is slightly negative cos you are effectively adopting a type of mind-set like "it could have been worse". also I noticed that once you start listing in your mind things that are great in your life they are inevitably getting worse so safer just leave them there unidentified. sorry it's negative me talking again 

I always knew that low fat options are just not the right thing to eat, it's so artificial. thanks for the explanation, now finally I know why! I recall there was an experiment where people were put on different diets and while LA (atkins type of diet) showed more weight loss, the bloods showed quite a lot of damage to health including liver and heart functions; a Mediterranean diet was by far the best in a way that it showed a lot of weight loss with no damage to health. 

I have really unhealthy relationship with chocolate, basically I could easily just live on chocolate with only occasionally eating normal food&#8230; when I was in my 20s I could go on with no food for days, I never liked food. when parents were away for a weekend I would not even open the fridge cos I did not know how to warm up stuff that my mum prepared for me, I'd just go out and buy a huge cake and ate it the entire weekend&#8230; I was really skinny back then.

weight loss update: I am losing weight!! it's not much, I am just reaching the level I had last May before I started dieting but it's definitely changing in the right direction so I cant be more pleased. Obviously it's only been 3 days but still I remember last year I was not losing anything on fruit and veg for a about a month and was constantly hungry; this time I am also constantly hungry but at least I can see some positive changes quicker which is really inspiring. I love fatsecrets! it's so easy to discipline yourself when you have all the tools; I put down all I eat (honestly every minor bit I put in my mouth, no cheating!) and weigh myself every morning. Actually last year I was consuming around 900 calories a day, but I think I will carry on with 700 for 1-2 weeks so I get used to eating much less and then may go up to 900 (basically the main difference was me having a biscotti with my morning cappuccino which added 150 calories and a bit more chocolate in the evenings!). I can deal with hunger during the day because I am very busy at work but evenings are really hard. seating at home hungry while DH is stuffing himself with all the delicious food is just unbearable.

DH was supposed to go out with colleagues tonight but I just lost it again this morning. This is really serious to me I cant do this anymore if he is not doing his part. I do not even want to check my bloods anymore cos there is nothing good to be expected it will deteriorate every month. I think (hope, more like it) he reconsidered 

my sex drive is just not there this cycle, this is really strange and totally not normal for me. I hope this is just one off thing while I am still recovering from IVF.


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## gingmg

I think its the dosage of EPA, 1000mg, that makes it unestablished for pregnancy. I know omega 3s are good, so I'm sure its fine in pregnancy at normal doses?


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## Briss

I think I may have found true super food for those trying to lose eight: smoked salmon! apparently it's only 126 calories per 100 grams but it's so filling as well as delicious


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## Blythe

gingmg - thank you for posting about diet recommendations - very interesting about the milk in particular. I have been using skimmed milk but will certainly be changing that from now on. I am now trying very hard to limit sugar intake and so far so good. i am still inputting into my WW app but still going over the limit on a daily basis. Having said that i am nearly at my pre xmas weighti put on 5 lbs in as many days!

Briss - i am going shopping in a while and will certainly be buying some smoked salmon! good tip and please share anymore you have for taking the hunger pangs awayits quite difficult to concentrate when hungry although teas seem to help.


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## Briss

i may have spoken too soon, my weight is back on this morning, even though I had less than 700 calories yesterday. I did drink a lot of water just before going to bed last night so maybe that's what's causing it. very discouraging anyway

DH got home drunk again last night... am searching for donor sperm, it's not easy at all actually and quite scary. so many risks in choosing a donor, all the possible diseases and genetic conditions to consider + legal issues. I am just so scared about my future as a single mother cos DH refused to be a co-parent to a donor sperm child. I am not even bothered about BD and ovulation this cycle. it's all hopeless anyway. just trying to find my way around donor sperm sites at the moment. so sad


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## Blythe

Briss - it will just be the wateri am sure you will see another loss tomorrow or the day after.

I'm sorry you were upset earlier about the drinking. i always thought when using donor sperm they were checked for disease/genetic stuff

As your DH has committed to funding 3 x IVFs i thought he would have more interest in ensuring his sperm is as good as it can be. Maybe consider donor sperm if the next IVF is not successfulif indeed you have to go for IVF. 

Have you spoken to DH today?


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## gingmg

Briss- I am so sorry you are having to deal with this with your DH. It sounds like he knows it's a problem, but then doesn't know how to stay away from drinking, especially if gets an invite from friends. It can't be easy to have to go through this.


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## Briss

Blythe, apparently it's only if you go to a sperm bank and get a frozen sample then there is some kind of guarantee that it will be free of any diseases but in order to do that you need to be registered with a clinic and go through at least IUI or even IVF. I do not want any more of that cos I think I can get pregnant naturally with good sperm and also fresh sperm is better. ladies on B&B are using a few sites to meet a donor and get a fresh sample around ovulation. I am not sure about the prices but i think it must be cheaper than frozen sperm + IUI. but it's just so scary choosing and meeting a donor (leaving alone bringing up a child on your own).

We are talking with DH but we have talked about it so many times before and it's all the same. I am just worried that if I trust him again I will end up in the same place a few years from now and still no child + eggs are much older and FSH is sky high. 

I understand that quitting beer is hard but it's not a nice to have thing, it's absolutely essential. it's unfair that so many men can drink all they want and still produce good sperm samples and he cant but that's what we have got and we have to work with that. I think no alcohol + vitamins + treatment = a much stronger chance for a pregnancy. but again even if he starts now it's going to take months and months to get his sperm to a decent level and also with my aging eggs it's going to take many more months of TTC, i am looking at 39-40 years pregnant with first child if we are lucky. with donor sperm I have a good chance of having a first child at 38 so I will still have time for a second. 

I really do not know where we go from here, i am lost cos obviously I want a complete family for my child but sticking with DH may lead to no child at all. and I do want more than one...

I am so distraught today that I am in danger of overeating :(


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## Briss

gingmg, I know it's not easy but you managed to quit smoking (btw I am just so impressed!) so I am sure if he tried he could also do that if he really wanted to... I cant get my head around the fact that I am staying with a man why is effectively sacrificing my future children so he could have a good time with his mates... that makes me a very bad person too, i should put my children (well, future hypothetical children) first


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## gingmg

As far as the fresh sperm, I think it's illegal to pay for bodily fluids. I believe the women you see on here don't pay for the sperm, but pay for gas/hotels/ ect for their donor's transportation/efforts. It's true, the sperm isn't tested the same way it is for frozen donor sperm, but the women usually request for the donor to prove STD tests are negative, and this is something that they would pay for if the men haven't been tested. Most also have legal documents drawn up for the donor to relinquish all parental rights. If you are seriously going down this road, I will find the documents that they used, they posted it somewhere a while back.

Would your DH go to a counselor with you? Maybe it would help if their was a mediator? I really hope that you can work this out with him. It sounds so painful to have to go through.


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## Briss

*gingmg*, if you could find the documents for the donor to relinquish all parental rights that would be great. I am just so clueless how it all works. Do you also have a list of STD tests that you request? 

One other thing that worries me is the donor's genes and things like colour, race etc - is there any control over these things? I mean with your husband you kind of know who his parents and grandparents are, what are the potential genetic conditions and have some expectation as to whether the child will have blue or brown eyes sort of thing; i'm just not sure how it all works with donors? it's probably silly but can you ask for a family tree or something?


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## Briss

I just broke and ate two chocolate eclairs... I did not enjoy them at all, somehow they are too sweet for me now and I am feeling really sick at the moment. I have consumed 900 calories today, most of which is chocolate and only 2 boiled egg for food... and something tells me I am going to load myself with potato crisps later today, I am just so hungry. emotionally loaded weekends are really hard when you are trying to lose weight. DH was trying to be super nice, made me coffee in the morning (the first time in my life!) and had sex and gave me massages :) while I was researching donor sperm... I was open with him I do feel my time is running out and if he wants to try again he has to commit completely because I will be giving him what may out to be my last months of being able to conceive. I do not know if I can trust him to deal with beer, I am just afraid that he will be trying to cheat, I do not always notice when he had something to drink.

My weight was back to Friday levels this morning so I guess yesterday was just a one off due to drinking lots of water at night, which is a relief. I hope I can stay focused tomorrow cos I have not lost anything since Friday.


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## Briss

I ended up eating 1630 calories yesterday most of which crisps and chocolate, so angry with myself but I had overwhelming feeling of having an empty stomach and nothing was able to make me feel full and also I had really bad cravings for nasty food. No surprises this morning my weight is up.

My CBFM is still on HIGH which is strange so I am thinking of backing it up with OPK today cos I am feeling it's missing my peak again. I am not surprised cos this cycle is just weird, I have no sex drive whatsoever and do not feel where I am in the cycle at all. Everything is just messed up after the last IVF.

*Blythe*, I think you were taking FertilAid this cycle? just read this post and thought of you, seems like FertilAid did not work that well for quite a few people 

https://babyandbump.momtastic.com/problems-trying-conceive/749672-fertili-tea-3.html


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## Blythe

Thanks for the link.....i am very concerned about the effect it has had on this cycle and just hope it does not have an effect on subsequent ones. Today my skin is glowing which is something that always happens a few days before AF. I do hope she arrives as expected on Friday. 

I have been reading lots about the 5:2 or 4:3 diets and I'm sure your little setback yesterday will be fine. I lost 2 lbs last week and hope to continue the weight loss this week. 
Today

Pot of cottage cheese
Homemade granola (high cal but lots of good stuff in there) and I want to limit dairy
2 crackers
Black coffee
Hot water and lemon
Lots of nettle tea 

I will eat an avocado later and intend to have one daily or at least every other day.


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## Briss

Blythe, 2 lbs in a week is a fantastic result! keep going. 

avocados are great, I love them! but so high on calorie scale it's about 300 calories 

Today:
Cappuccino 40
salmon + carrots 200

I've heard about the 5:2 or 4:3 diets. a friend of mine has lost weight on 5:2 diet but as soon as she stopped it she put everything back on. 

OPK was negative but It might be that my LH surge is over and I might be ovulating today. or maybe I am just approaching O. I really cant tell this cycle.


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## gingmg

I am struggling with how many embryos to put back (if they fertilize at all!!) If they make it day 5, she only wants to do one, giving us a 30% chance of success. If we did 2, the success rate would be 60%, but then with a 40% chance of twins. If they look like they need to be put back on day 2 or 3, she said we could do 2 because our twin rate would be less than 20%. It's not that I wouldn't want twins because they are more work and harder to manage, I'm afraid of preterm birth and health complications to both me and the babies. Of coarse she will do what we are most comfortable with, but I just don't know what to do. I want to give us the best chance of success possible, but I also don't want to have a baby with cerebral palsy, or born at 28 weeks. I think I see too much at work and my head is running wild with all that could happen, because I read through the twin section here and they all seem healthy. Granted, many women stopped working once they hit 30 weeks, which is not an option for us because we wouldn't survive without my income and I don't have enough earned time to go out that early. 
Our clinic is very conservative, which I both respect and despise. Of coarse I want my RE to put what's in my best interest above her success rates, which is what she is doing, but the idea of having to do this multiple times is more than I can wrap my head around. I was up half the night worrying over whether to put back 1 or 2. The other thing is that they are going to use 2 vials of sperm for IVF, which I didn't realize, which means we only will have 2 left, enough for one more try. Of coarse we can always buy more, but it's so expensive and we just spent $4,000 buying more. I don't know whether to insist that they only use 1 vial (usually post wash count of around 20 million) or let them use both. We did not sign the waiver for ISCI, so if they don't fertilize, they don't fertilize. If they don't fertilize, we will do ICSI on the next round, but didn't want them to do it unless it was absolutely necessary. Part of me thinks, if we are going to do this, we should do this and use both vials, but then I think of that bill buying more and I want to throw up. We have spent more than $15,000 trying to get pregnant and haven't even started with IVF yet. It's disgusting.


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## Briss

*gingmg*, what your doc said sounds right, that's what I heard. with 2 embryos the chances are better but they are concerned with increased risk of twins. if having twins is not something you want than you can go for one and freeze the rest. if you get a bfn then you can do a natural frozen cycle with your frozen embryos which is not the same as going through IVF again. it's basically just a natural cycle with ET and it should be included in your IVF cost (ask to make sure that's the case but even if not it must be much cheaper). 

I struggle to understand why they need two vials? they might be concerned with non fertilisation risk but surely if you are paying so much for the sperm it will be of good enough quality. I agree I would not do ICSI unless absolutely necessary. sperm can fertilise even a non mature egg but with ICSI all non mature eggs are just lost. also ICSI depends on the experience of the embryologist and he can easily ruin an egg with ICSI. Potentially you can split your eggs into IVF group and ICSI group just to make sure because sometimes older eggs are hard to penetrate even for good sperm and ladies end up with lots of eggs but none fertilise.


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## gingmg

Briss- I am definitely afraid of that, that they won't fertilize, and I know it's a real risk. We will do ICSI on the next round if it turns out to be the case that none fertilize, but I wanted to know for sure that we need it, and not do it just because- which I hear happens often.


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## gingmg

Just had quinoa with cranberries and walnuts for breakfast/early lunch- and it was delicious! Heard about it from a friend and tried it, and so glad because it was so yummy!


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## Blythe

Gingmg - it's a difficult one and if i were younger something i would struggle with. However, if i get to the egg transfer stage then i am going to get them to stick two in. i am not sure if i have asked before but what was your AFC ahead of this cycledid they tell you? also what is your FSH level? Does you wife have a view on the transfer options? 

oh my gosh Briss - your intake today is so little. How are you feeling? i have just eaten quite a large evening meal so probably blown it today but there was lots of chocs at work and i did not go near them and I'm feeling confident that i will continue to avoid them for the rest of the week. I am really keeping an eye on my sugar intake although not too fussed about good fats at the moment.


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## gingmg

Blythe- My FSH is 5 and not sure about AFC. They did an "egg retrieval score" and gave me a 12, so I'm thinking that was the AFC? Not sure what a good range is, but on this score they gave me an "average" compared to other women my age and a success rate on IVF of "average, good". My wife is the same as me, we go back and forth on the risks. We both actually would LOVE to have twins, but only if we could guarantee no health problems, which we can't, so not sure we want to risk it. We probably will change our minds a hundred times over the next month.


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## Briss

*Blythe*, I've been really good today I have not eaten anything more in addition to my list above yet, not even a tiny bit of chocolate. (frankly I am still slightly sick from all the crisps of last night) I am sure I will have some later when I get home. I am also saving calories for alcohol which I would need once we have our app with the urologist in the evening... I am practically sh** ing myself thinking about it. I know I am trying to get used to the idea of donor sperm anyway and yet waiting for the results of these tests is just so nerve-wracking. 

*gingmg*, I am slightly surprised they ask you to decide now whether to proceed with IVF or ICSI. in my clinic I was told that it will be decided by the embryologist on the day of EC depending on the semen sample. but because we had bad sperm in the past they asked us to pay for ICSI as the most likely scenario but if they proceeded with IVF instead they would reimburse it later. I never tried quinoa but I love most grains, I usually add raisins and honey or milk, wonderful! I wish I had that last night rather than crisps&#8230;


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## gingmg

They don't decide until that day, but we didn't sign the permission to let them if they need to. So if nothing happens, nothing happens. We wanted to see what would happen on this first try, which is why maybe its a good idea to put all the sperm possible in there. Especially, because we know there is nothing wrong with the sperm, he has good numbers. We switched people recently and this guy is too new to have documented pregnancies yet, but I'm sure they will start coming soon, just like the last guy. I'm afraid I killed my eggs with my 20years of smoking, but I would like to think, smoking aside, Ive always been healthy, so maybe my eggs are just fine. Raisins and honey with quinoa sounds so good.


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## BBbliss

ging, so many decisions, it's so hard isn't it? my personal opinion is if you'd love to have twins and that raises your chances I say go for it, absolutely nothing in life is guaranteed. There are millions of healthy twins I even know a few :) good luck deciding.


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## Briss

We had a follow up appointment with our urologist and the good news is that our karyotype testing came back fine, no genetic issues, all chromosomes are in place - what a relief! I was so worried.

based on Dh's test results and particularly lower testosterone, the doc suggested the following treatment:

(i)	increasing the count: FSH. There are three possible options for taking FSH: 1. tamoxifen, 20 mg/day for 30 days, which is what DH was prescribed; 2. some other anti-estrogen, forgot the name but basically it's only for overweight men; 3. Clomid, but the doc said this is too aggressive and may increase the testosterone too much and shut the system off completely; 

(ii)	improving the quality/morphology: antioxidants i.e. proxeed.

The doc was very clear that the above treatment may increase his count by 30-40% but it will not necessarily lead to pregnancy. We need to check DH's blood in 6 weeks to check that testosterone and FSH are rising and if everything is OK we will repeat SA in 3 months and then consider another IVF. Our urologist suggested stim IVF to improve the odds and did not recommend natural IVF. When I tried to explain that natural worked better for us because of my high FSH (at least we had a chemical pregnancy while with stim cycle we did not have any fertilasation), he kind of hinted that our clinic may not have been the best place for a stim IVF...

DH started the treatment last night but 3 months seems like ages. should I stay or should I go???


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## Blythe

You are going to stay.....and that's an order!

3 months is a matter of a few weeks. I remember that silly astrology reading I had last year where I was told not to even bother trying for the last few months of the year.....it seemed an unbearable amount of time but here we are in jan and it was no time really. 

This gives you 3 months to get fit and fabulous and ready for pregnancy. Your DH adores you and is (apart from drink) fully on board.....few men would take all those supplements he has taken for months on end and bother with these clinics/docs etc without wanting it badly for either themselves or for the woman he loves. 

I'm trying very much not to think of the last 3 years and think about possibilities. Briss - I'm so pleased to hear that there are no genetic issues and that you now have a plan in place to improve sperm count.


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## gingmg

Briss- this is great news! Don't leave! 3 months is no time at all. It will go by so quickly and Blythe is right, use this time to focus on things that will make you happy, getting fit for the road to come. Maybe some distraction during these 3 months will help. Your DH does want this with you.


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## Jazzbird

So pleased to hear your news Briss. Agree with the others - stick with it. You have nothing to lose. 

Also - go easy on the weight loss. I don't think drastic weight loss or sudden reduction in calories is good for you or fertility. 

Love to all the ladies on this thread!

Xxx


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## Briss

ladies, thank you very much for your support, as always!

I do want to stay with DH but there is a voice in my head telling me that I am wasting my precious time. I guess I can "waste" another 6 months (DH's treatment + IVF) before going donor route&#8230; We went to our FS today and she referred us for IVf at UCH via the NHS but she said it's most likely we wont get the funding when it comes to the actual treatment cos of my FSH. we have nothing to lose in trying, if not we will have to self-fund it but from what I heard we can still get some discount on the meds. it's going to take 2 months to get the paperwork so we can carry on with DH's treatment while we wait. 

*Blythe*, I remember that reading, I was thinking that it's just impossible not to TTc for a few months, what a waste! but then obviously looking back the last 3.5 years can be seen as a waste cos nothing happened. 

Dh does seem to be fully on boars last couple of days but then if I see him drunk again it may just push me over the edge, it's like two different people sober him is almost perfect husband and drunken him is an impossible moron.

It was so funny when the urologist said that we may still not get pregnant even if his sperm count increases, DH said that any increase will make my wife happy and that's worth something. But then when I think that I have been begging him to see a urologist for at least 2 years and we could have had a baby by now if he did it makes me furious! I will try to think about possibilities&#8230; 

*gingmg*, a distraction would be nice but not sure if I can possibly ever take my mind off TTC. btw DH suggested that we take 3 weeks off in spring before the next IVF and go off somewhere far away like Australia or NZ or Brazil&#8230; It would be amazing! I am trying to find the right moment to clear such long annual leave with the partners, will probably take me a while

*Jazzbird*, I agree that weight loss and TTC do not go well together but I feel I need to get into shape before the next IVF as these meds have messed me up. I do not starve myself completely but I am hungry a lot of the time. dieting is quite hard and I am happy I found a method that works for me and the one I can stick with for 1-2 months after which I know I will go back to eating normally. btw, I could not eat much last couple of days because of all the emotions and somehow I did not even need chocolate so I am on track with my weight loss. I am hoping to be losing 700-800 grams a week but not there yet.


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## Blythe

we went for docs consolation earlier and our results as follows:

*Me*:
day 3 bloods - Dec 2013

AFC: 18/19
FSH 7.2 IU/L
LH 8.0 IU/L
OESTRADIOL 259 pmol/L

just to compare to earlier ones taken in Mar 2013

AFC: 10/11
FSH 7.8 IU/L
LH 4.4 IU/L
OESTRADIOL 113 pmol/L


*DH*:

Count: 18m [after wash expects it to be 12 m]
Motility: 70 %
Morph: 6%

earlier ones taken in Feb 2013

Count: 29m
Motility: 65 %
Morph: 5%

So DHs sperm count down but other bits seem ok. He said ICSI was a possibility.

I asked about DHEA and he said given this is my first round and he does not know how i will respond to meds he would not recommend it but he does with women who have had failed cycles. I though this was interesting given it is an NHS clinic.

*Costs*:
£2900 - paid up front today
i have already paid £220 to cover consultation and tests
drugs: can cost between £600 and £1500
egg freezing: £600
FET natural cycle: £700
costs of cancelled IVF before stims £250
costs of cancelled IVF before ec £700

The doc showed me the stats and combination of my stats and my age [will be just a few weeks shy of 42 at time of egg collection] gives me odds of pregnancy around 25-30% and live birth around 15%.


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## Blythe

PS - am totally weirded out now. Having thought about IVF as an abstract thing for so so long i am now very freaked out that i have paid for it. I start down reg on valentines day [how romantic] and that takes 42 days!!!!!! what!!!! from what i can tell i won't be testing until sometime in april - oh lord this seems so long but I'm happy that its a longer rather than shorter process as i feel now i am in someone else's hands and maybe i can just stop thinking about self medication and just surrender myself to what is about to happen.

Briss - those holiday options sound magnificenti dream of going to NZI used to go out with a kiwi and used to have lots of kiwi matesi love them.


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## Briss

Blythe, stats look great! I think your DH's SA are absolutely fine and morphology is constantly good so ICSI is not necessary but it might be an option just because your eggs are older and may be harder to penetrate. if you get many eggs you could always ask to split them into IVf and ICSI categories. I think your odds of pregnancy at 25-30% and live birth around 15% is good but I would not really pay too much attention to these numbers it will all depend on your cycle and how you respond to stims and lots of other things, just take it one day at a time; you have good chances that it will work first time. This is so exciting! Did they tell you why they put you on long protocol?


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## Blythe

Briss - i barely had a clue what they were saying to me. All i know is i have an appt on 20th feb to discuss how to administer injections and some other paperwork and we both have to attend. prior to that i will start taking something - i think microgynon tablet. a drug company will contact me soon to arrange delivery and payment. Once i had seen the doctor another lady took over and arranged stuff and took payment - i could see her mouth moving but i don't know what words were coming outi was in a daze caused by actually turning my obsessive thoughts into action involving my credit card :(

the only thing i remembered to ask was about DHEA as i remember you asking me to ask themi actually forgot to ask him to explain what sort of IVF i will be having:dohh: 

There is a graph in their pack they gave me which shows standard 42 days of down reg then 12 days of FSH stimulation prior to ec. i only really know about the type of IVF you had where stuff kicks off around CD1.


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## gingmg

Omg, Blythe this is so exciting!


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## Briss

Blythe, IVF is totally overwhelming so I am not surprised, what you have is a long protocol but I am sure there are varieties of this protocol. I just thought for over 40 they usually do short protocol which starts on CD2 with stims but I guess cos your stats are that good they decided to go with long, I'd take it as good news. You will start with supressing your ovaries and then after you get your AF they will start stimulating it, I think the idea is that the follicles will start growing simultaneously and they will all be more or less the same sizes (in short cycles you get follicles that are just starting to grow so they are too small and not collected) you will have more eggs in the end hopefully.

although 42 days of down reg seems like a lot


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## Breaking Dawn

Hello Ladies!

I'm officially back!

Sorry for being MIA but really needed time away from All things ttc. Felt really good and now I'm ready to move ahead.

We are starting IVF this month. Had our ivf appt last week and got all the details....waiting for AF next week...and then we begin. 

I'm excited to see that there are a few of us in this journey together!!

Fx to all of you!


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## Briss

Breaking Dawn, welcome back! excellent news! do you know what protocol are you going to be on?


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## gingmg

Breaking dawn- welcome back! I'm so excited to have so many of us on similar IVF timelines. FX for everyone!


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## Blythe

Ladies - i would be very grateful for your advice.

https://www.kch.nhs.uk/Doc/pl - 527.3 - guide to assisted conception services.pdf

on page 4 of the linked booklet there is the IVF order of events that i will be following.

do you think that i would be down doing down regulation stuff for 42 days or just 21 daysi have looked at this for so long that my head hurts and i don't understand it. I think the doctor said it would take 6 weeks but i don't really know what he was talking about.oh dearwhen i am scared of stuff i stop listening properly and just nod.


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## Breaking Dawn

Thanks ladies!

I don't have details with me but I think it's : GonalF, Repronex, centro??( to stop O), hcg trigger 
Then antibiotics pre-retrieval. 

Ging - when so u start?


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## gingmg

It's kinda hard to interpret, but I'll tell you how I read this. Birth control pills for 21 days, then Lupron (I'm assuming that's the drug they are talking about) until your scan to determine that you are quiet and suppressed- which according to this calendar looks like the scan will be around day 42. Then stimming after the scan for roughly-give or take- 12 days, depending on your response. I am on the long protocol too, I didn't calculate out the actual days, but I think my scan is roughly on day 30something, so you are a few days longer than me before that first scan.


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## gingmg

Breaking down- I am on birth control now, start Lupron at the end of next week and should be able to start stimming in Feb.


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## gingmg

My RE said the long protocol is roughly 2 months start to finish, when I actually look at my dates, I think I am just shy of this.


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## Blythe

Thank you gingmg......:flower:


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## gingmg

You will continue the Lupron (again I'm assuming that will be their drug of choice) even while stimming, just at a lower dose so that you don't ovulate any of those beautiful follies early. At least that is my understanding for continuing the Lupron while stimming.


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## Briss

Blythe, as far as I can see on CD 1 you start taking "MICROGYNON" for 21 days, then on CD 22, you start taking "GnRH AGONIST' for 21 day so it will bring you to a total of 42 days. I think you may have some kind of period similar to AF while on "GnRH AGONIST" but it's still confusing, or are you supposed to have a 42 day cycle then? I am not quite sure when you get your AF so you could start FSH on CD1 of the next cycle but I guess by then you will have had your scan and bloods and they will tell you.


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## gingmg

I was told I may or may not bleed in the middle of this, either way is fine. The fsh starts when you are completly supressed, it won't really be a cycle even though there may be some withdrawal bleeding. So much info isn't?


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## gingmg

I hope I am explaining it right, I am starting to realize that there are so many protocols and it may be slightly different everywhere. I am just going by the way I understand it based on what I am doing.


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## BBbliss

girls, this is so exciting! I am SO happy there we are all here at the same stage on our journeys. I was so scarred but now readying all of your new posts for last couple of days I'm suddenly loosing my fears. Blythe, I'm the same, when I get nervous or fearful I my mind shuts down and I can't concentrate to hear instructions. The only thing I know is that on my next cycle I'm to call the office to schedule some test to check my uterus (ultrasound) and then after that I'm not even sure, but that will be the start. I think I'm looking into March/April, I also don't know what protocol they are putting me on. When do they usually start you with the birth control if that's the course take you?

btw, very nice numbers Blythe.

Briss, three months is nothing, you'll see, besides with all of us here starting our IVFs at the same time there will be loads to talk about, it's nice to have you here, you always have so much info to offer, it's great to have someone on our side at the end of the day.


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## gingmg

I started birth control on day 3, but I have seen on here not everyone takes it. It's amazing how every clinic is so different.


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## Breaking Dawn

Hi ladies

I woke up this morning and AF was here....i was expecting her next week. so ivf starts early!!!
Feel nervous.

I booked CD3 for Saturday and I get my injections and start that night.

It's all happening so fast!!!

Ging...ok so my protocol is slight different. no bcp fir me. Was told to call cd1 (today). To book cd3 appt and get started with GonalF.


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## bumpbella

YES....YES AND YES !!! I got pregnant twice with the help of acupuncture....once when I was 39 (which I miscarried at 6 weeks) and the second at 40...which resulted in a successful pregnancy so far....I am 5 months now. I continued acupuncture through my 3rd month...and I'm 41 now. Although I credit this pregnancy to a few things... (including my faith)...I believe that acupuncture had a lot to do with it. I'm a BIG advocate.


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## Easypeasy58

I tried and it worked, along with the herbs and changing my eating habits. Eat healthy foods, no fast food and take your vitamins and Folic Acid daily. I would make green smoothies(YouTube has lots of great juicing recipes), cut back on red meat and eat more chicken and fish. And water is super important!! As well as excercise and meditation. Stay away from negative situations vibes and people. Once you conceive take it easy, rest as much as possible and follow a good healthy diet(food consumption stay away from fast food). Cravings are natural but if you say to yourself this : "what nutritional value if ANY will a cheeseburger/fries/etc have on my body and my baby??" then you'll find yourself reaching for a healthy snack, and feel better about your choices. Western medicine does not believe in Accupuncture because there's no "scientific " proof To back it up that it does work. Try Cupping as well, it helps the blood flow and aids in clearing the body of toxins. Good Luck! And God Bless.


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## Briss

*bumpbella and Easypeasy*, thanks for your input ladies and best of luck! It does seem that acu and herbs work for some people, which is great. Unfortunately that was not the case for me. no lifestyle changes and no acu/herbs was able to stop declining fertility and increasing FSH. the clock carries on ticking no matter what I do so after years of natural treatments, I firmly believe IVf is the way forward for me. I am trying to clear my mind of any regrets that I did not start IVF much sooner when my FSH was not that high and I would respond better to IVF medication. My hope of course was that acu/herbs, vitamins, super foods etc etc will help me stay "young" in fertility terms and indeed my blood blow to reproductive organs was and hopefully is excellent but still, it did not make any positive difference to my FSH, which is ultimately an indicator that my fertility goes down.

*Breaking Dawn*, best of luck! what dose of gonal F are you going to be on?

DH and I went to lister for their open evening. Dh was asking lots of questions which really pleased me but then he said he is not going to pay for another IVF before June&#8230;. I will be 38, cant wait that long! all the statistics show a dramatic drop in fertility after 37&#8230;. basically holidays in NZ is going to cost a fortune so I said I'd rather carry on without holidays then. on the other hand taking 3 weeks off work and relaxing may do us lots of good. I have not had proper longish holidays in years. Anyway, Listed seemed like a great place and they did not try to PR themselves just explained the process and chances and that they do not shy away from difficult cases. Interestingly for smb with my stats they would expect around 6 eggs. unfortunately I could not get an NHS referral to lister so if we go there it will be privately. 

my weight loss is going very slowly and painfully, I have definitely lost a bit of weight but now the process kind of stopped and for several days I have not lost anything which is depressing considering how hungry I am all the time.


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## Breaking Dawn

Update from me: CD3 appt today

There's a bit of delay ...kinda sucks cause I'm already to go. After my appt this morning the nurse called and I thought it was bad news about bloodwork etc.....but all good.

Instead she said that I need to delay ivf because my retrieval dates fall around the one time the embryology lab is closed. So I'm delayed by one month.

Also ...she said dr wanted to start on me on lupron before Cd1 so I have to call 7 days prior to my estimated cd 1 to start that.

I'm a bit disappointed just bc I'm sooooo ready to start this ...and I really want a 2014 baby and now I'm running out of time...

But then I just remember that in the big picture one month means nothing and I'm greatful that the delay is not bc anything is wrong!


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## Breaking Dawn

Briss said:


> *bumpbella and Easypeasy*, thanks for your input ladies and best of luck! It does seem that acu and herbs work for some people, which is great. Unfortunately that was not the case for me. no lifestyle changes and no acu/herbs was able to stop declining fertility and increasing FSH. the clock carries on ticking no matter what I do so after years of natural treatments, I firmly believe IVf is the way forward for me. I am trying to clear my mind of any regrets that I did not start IVF much sooner when my FSH was not that high and I would respond better to IVF medication. My hope of course was that acu/herbs, vitamins, super foods etc etc will help me stay "young" in fertility terms and indeed my blood blow to reproductive organs was and hopefully is excellent but still, it did not make any positive difference to my FSH, which is ultimately an indicator that my fertility goes down.
> 
> *Breaking Dawn*, best of luck! what dose of gonal F are you going to be on?
> 
> DH and I went to lister for their open evening. Dh was asking lots of questions which really pleased me but then he said he is not going to pay for another IVF before June. I will be 38, cant wait that long! all the statistics show a dramatic drop in fertility after 37. basically holidays in NZ is going to cost a fortune so I said I'd rather carry on without holidays then. on the other hand taking 3 weeks off work and relaxing may do us lots of good. I have not had proper longish holidays in years. Anyway, Listed seemed like a great place and they did not try to PR themselves just explained the process and chances and that they do not shy away from difficult cases. Interestingly for smb with my stats they would expect around 6 eggs. unfortunately I could not get an NHS referral to lister so if we go there it will be privately.
> 
> my weight loss is going very slowly and painfully, I have definitely lost a bit of weight but now the process kind of stopped and for several days I have not lost anything which is depressing considering how hungry I am all the time.

300 units of Gonal F with injection pen


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## Blythe

Breaking - it is always a let down when you are geared up for something and it is put back but, as you say, its not so long. Gives you longer to get fighting fit and healthy and ready for pregnancy :)

The way my one pans out will mean i will not be doing ER until beginning of April. Having looked at a number of IVF threads over the last few weeks i have concluded that it is all quite random and the young girls with super retrieval rates with fab looking blasts being put back in are getting BFN and others with not so great eggs/low retrieval rates are getting BFPs. with this in mind i am going to try very hard to keep away from those threads as I'm not sure there is anything good i can take away from them.

I am interested in diet/relaxation tips but i am relying on Briss and Gingmg for that stuff.


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## gingmg

Breaking dawn- I'm sorry it has gotten pushed back, but time is going to fly by. 
Blythe- I agree, it all seems so random. I am going to stay away from those threads too. When I was on them for medicated IUIs, it did nothing but cause more anxiety because I find myself comparing my progress with others, and none of it seemed to indicate whether a bfp or bfn was around the corner. I also feel like I need emotional support and like to chit chat about random things and not solely write how many follies I have or how big they are. 
As far as diet, I'm trying really hard to follow some of those guidelines, but am frustrated that I'm not loosing weight. Currently in the car driving up north with my mom and wife to ski for the next two days, should be a lot of fun and a good workout. I hope I am in as good shape when I am older like my mom, and still skiing in my 60s,70s.. It's a good thing I quit smoking.


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## gingmg

And I think we are going to put back 2. We want to have the best chances possible. We are also rethinking about signing the consent for ICSI if needed, I'm so afraid nothing is going to happen in that dish, but I only want them to do it if its absolutely necessary.


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## Breaking Dawn

Ging
We signed the consent form for ICSI, for us it was really a no brainer.
We are going to IVF bc of a unknown reason.. its possible that reason is because of a fertilizing issue (due to egg). If that's the case, then we will need ICSI. 

If we dont sign this time, learn that we need it then all the eggs are wasted and we will require another retrieval...

I'm not sure what your concerns are but hope that helps.


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## Briss

*Breaking Dawn*, I am sorry about the delay, it's always disheartening having to delay things when you are so ready&#8230; but I agree one month is not much and you can take this time to prepare yourself for the pregnancy.

*Blythe*, April seems so far away, is it because of down reg? I never had long protocol so really have no clue. I actually found it helpful to join an IVF thread cos I had so many questions about the process and if I do things right etc and it was good to get some answers from people who have already done it. I knew from the start that I was not going to have many eggs so it did not bother me that most people were getting 15-50 eggs while I only got 1-2&#8230; I mean the fact that none fertilised did bother me but at least I was not alone, about 1/5 of the ladies did not get to ET stage for various reasons. 

*gingmg*, I think putting back two is a good decision. 

*afm*, completely blew it this weekend, could not stop eating&#8230; When I am at work I am OK being hungry as I am busy and do not really have that much time to think about it. but at home that's all I can think about &#8211; how bloody hungry I am! interestingly I did not put on much weight over the weekend but did not lose anything either. I am back to being hungry today so it looks like I am going 5:2 type of diet. 

definitely stay away from coconut. Stupidly I decided to make fruit smoothie with coconut, opening it was quite tricky but then it did not really taste great and together with pineapple and banana I was kinda hoping for a pina-colada type of taste but it was more like pineapples soaked in goats milk&#8230; not very nice at all. the shock came later when I realised how much calories are in a coconut &#8211; a lot!! DH bought tonnes of fruit as if on purpose and obviously I could not stay away from it all&#8230; Fruit is totally my enemy cos they are so high in calorie and yet leaving you feeling hungry and you end up eating more. I am sticking to chocolate cos at least I can control the amount


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## Blythe

I love a pina colada.!

i am down to 11 lbs 1 having been well over 11lbs 7 after the xmas period so that is good.i want very much to get down to 10 lbs 10 and possibly even 10 lbs 7 ahead of the IVF

Having said that i have been reviewing my diet and decided that its all about doing whatever i can to help things along. i am avoiding sugar where its easy to avoid it and start having full fat milk. I am also having an avocado every other day and will be having one daily from start of down reg next month. Will it make a difference? Probably not but i need to know i have done everything possible to make this work as there will be no other fertility treatments after this one.

i am hoping that by avoiding sugar i can still lose weight . There were some chocs in the office today and i took one out of politeness but then realised it was a coffee cream so spat it into my hand [discretely] and made my way to the toilets. Someone tried to stop me for a chat but i couldn't stop as my mouth was now full of saliva too. Now ordinarily i would have had the coffee cream but i thought sod it its empty calories, it will make my eggs harder to penetrate, it will send my insulin levels up/down and then that will have an effect on my hormones etc etc etc 

Having said all this i did pig out last night - Briss - you are so right..the weekends are very difficult. Did you drink the coconut water? it is very expensive to buy and seems to be the new wonder drink.


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## Blythe

PS - i won't even be starting the CP until next cycle so i still have this cycle to go without any medsthat all starts next month.

they are clearly putting me on the standard NHS long protocol which i guess is fine given my fairly regular periods and ok stats for my age. To be honest if we had the cash i would have preferred to have gone to a private clinic with more individual care but it is what it is.


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## Briss

Blythe, great progress! well done. I agree that it's important to have quality food during IVF, you will be growing lots of eggs! try to eat greens if you can they have virtually no calories and lots of goodness. My Dh is really setting an example here, he makes himself green smoothies every day, almost two pints of pure kale/spinach type of greens and some tomatoes and avocado. I have to say it looks and tastes awful but healthwise it's the best stuff you can have. also, it's alkaline so you are investing in your health for the entire pregnancy! 

I am staying away from the office kitchen. had to go for prunes today, 5 prunes are 100 calories! high way robbery! (I really need to visit the loo, all that pigging out left me constipated&#8230; )

I did drink the coconut water and actually the natural one is much sweater than what you can buy in the supermarket (I used to buy this one for smoothies https://www.ocado.com/webshop/produ...ram=coco&parentContainer=SEARCHcoco_SHELFVIEW not anymore cos my daily calorie allowance just cant fit this in)

so far today 350:

coffee 40
fish/veg 210
5 prunes 100

I can now have my well deserved chocolate. 

I think I am losing weight but I cant really tell cos it's up and down all the time. I have now done 2 weeks so will try calculating the weekly average to see if there is any progress.


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## Blythe

Your DH is lovely....2 pints of kale. Now that is love :)

I actually may get my smoothie maker out and pop the juicer back up on top of cupboard as there's not room for both. The juicer has so many bits to clean so it puts me off using it.


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## Briss

My Dh is taking everything to the extreme he actually bought a new professional blender specifically for kale cos apparently my ordinary blender did not do a good enough job in turning it into liquid&#8230; kale is actually quite hard to blend, not like spinach. but I think buying some hi-tech stuff like this blender adds some kind of excitement to drinking kale smoothie so helps DH stay motivated. I mean as long as he is sober whatever it takes really.

he is also taking proxeed without complaining that much cos it's dissolvable in water and easier to take for him than tonnes of large pills. the urologist said that although my list was good there might be such thing as too much of good thing. proxeed has less of everything but as long as he is taking it regularly I am fine.

be careful with fruit smoothies and fruit juices, while they are tasty and great sources of vitamins they are packed with calories. I am trying to stay away from them cos you can easily consume your daily calorie intake in one large fruit smoothie if you are not careful.


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## Briss

I should not have said anything about DH cos as soon as I said it he went off and had some beer, I am just so upset. How could he? He was not even going to tell me but obviously I can smell even small amounts of alcohol on his breathe. he said it was just half pint and the good thing is that he was able to control himself and stop. Honestly i fail to see anything good here. i just started feeling hopeful again...

blythe, on a different point have you seen "are you addicted to sugar" on channel 4? it's really interesting. I did know that sugar is bad and it damages your health etc but I just do not know how to stop. sugar/chocolate makes everything better. many people eat hidden sugars and do not even know it. My addiction is just so out in the open, even in the office whenever colleagues see a bar of chocolate on my desk most make comments about my addiction. apparently we are supposed to eat 50 grams of sugar a day. It's just not realistic for me.


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## gingmg

Briss, I know its upsetting to you when your DH drinks, but it sounds like a start that he was aware of his intake and was able to limit it. Don't loose hope, it sounds like he is definitely on board with all of this and is trying to make some changes.


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## Jazzbird

Briss - I agree with Gingmg. Half a pint or even a whole point is a huge improvement. Try not to pick him up on it or he might just give up and revert to his old ways. 

He is making such an effort.


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## Briss

Thank you, ladies. I really hope so. It's just so hard I feel my everything depends on him and when he lets me down I am just in pieces&#8230; 

I had 600 calories yesterday, very proud of myself but mainly because I stayed late in the office and was very busy so did not really have time to think about food. It's going to be a very long day today cos my meetings started at 7.30 am!! and I already had some chocolate. also have to go out for a drink with a client later, more calories!

Now, this is just ridiculous! "_The results of a study on reproductive health, published in the British Medical Journal, revealed that one in 200 US women claim to have given birth without ever having had sexual intercourse. The BMJ reports that of the women who took part in the study, 45 (0.5%) reported at least one virgin pregnancy, "unrelated to the use of assisted reproductive technology". They claim to have conceived without vaginal intercourse or in-vitro fertilisation (IVF)._" https://uk.news.yahoo.com/shocked-italian-nun-gives-birth-baby-boy-095247545.html#OyaPTmS

It just shows how many people have no idea how conception occurs&#8230; There must be sperm somewhere nearby either on purpose or "by chance". I actually had a fear of getting pregnant by using public loos cos men tend to ** off everywhere leaving their "stuff" behind, you just never know


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## gingmg

That study sounds like a group of fertile lesbians using the syringe method at home.


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## Breaking Dawn

Lol @ ging

A couple pages back someone mentioned that chicken is good to eat.

I just wanted to add my experiences with two TCM Dr's. Both told me that chicken is not good for ovaries and for healthy eggs/ovaries to stop/reduce chicken consumption.


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## gingmg

Umm, good to know about the chicken. I've just been told lean meat and fish was good.


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## gingmg

Jazzbird- how are you feeling? What was the name of the hypnosis cd's that you liked? I'm thinking of getting a fertility hypnosis cd to listen to.


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## Jazzbird

Hullo Gingmg! I used Maggie Howells prepare to conceive. It's very relaxing 

I'm still quite sick (6 weeks and counting) but I haven't vomited for 3 days so I'm hoping it's finally starting to ease off. I've been off work for the past 3 weeks. 

Other than that I'm ok. Still waiting for a scan. 

Reading everyone's posts regularly. So excited for all of you starting ivf. Hopefully we'll get some bfps shortly. That would be wonderful! 

Xxx


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## Breaking Dawn

Jazz 
Did you get your bfp?

Sorry I've been away and was trying to decipher your msg above...bfp sickness or just sick....lol


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## Jazzbird

Hi Breaking - yes I got my bfp on 2 dec amazingly. I've had really bad ms for the past 6 weeks but I'm not complaining. Just anxious to get to a scan as I have no idea if it's ok. That's why I haven't updated my signature. 

I am still reading this thread avidly though. You gals are my favourite online buddies and I really want everyone to get their bfps this year. It would be so wonderful! Xxx


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## Breaking Dawn

Jazz...congrats hun that's amazing!

Hope you feel better.


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## Briss

ladies, I hope you all are doing great. any news? how're your IVF cycles progressing?

I am down with a nasty cold so my diet is completely ruined and am back to where I started. I was actually doing not so badly trying to stay within 1,200-1,400 calories and still not gaining any weight (but obviously not losing anything either) but then last few days we started ordering pizza home and it all went wrong from there cos half pizza is like 1,500 calories on its own &#8230;. also been trying to plan our NZ adventure but TTC is holding me back, I know that the chances of us getting pregnant are nil and yet something tells me that as soon as we book these non-refundable flights it's bound to happen. I think taking a 12-26 hour flight while pregnant is not recommended particularly in first trimester &#8230;


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## Blythe

Hello :)

i was thinking of you todayi was going to pick something up from an office not too far away from harley street and was having a wonder around the streets and thought it is probably not too far from where you live..it was really lovely to wonder around and i thought how wonderful london is with all the lovely buildings hidden away. i have just seen the crappy bits for so long that i was seriously on a downer when it came to this city so felt revived by the sun and sights earlier today :)

i went on a corset making course again at the weekend and we had numerous fittingsi stood there with my hips protruding from the bottom and fat bits at top and what appears to be wonky tiny boobs.i had no noticed they were different sizes before! Still the course itself was very satisfying.

i am approaching ovulation on my last natural cycle and loads of very noticeable EWCM which cheers me no end but my DH is super exhausted from work and so i think i will manage to get one BD out of him so figuring out when to do itmaybe tomorrow night then at least i have a glimmer of hope to see me through the 2ww.

to the best of my knowledge flying is fine in first tri. i went over to canada during first few weeks and germany. The later was for work [first was too but involved offices and shopping :)]a mil exercise in freezing condition sleeping in a tent and lugging the heaviest rucksacks around..it was awful. there was no heating in the tent and i used to wake up with a wet face. i barely slept for two weeksanyhow the point of this is don't put anything off in case. if you do get pregnant in the next couple of months i think it would be perfectly fine and you may even wangle an upgrade!


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## gingmg

No news here. Still on BCP and just started Lupron a few days ago. Suppression check next week. 

Don't beat yourself up, it's important to have those days of eating whatever you want, and pizza is soooo good!!!! I've also been only maintaining and haven't been following weight watchers all that closely, mostly because I don't want to eat a low fat diet right now. But I've been doing yoga almost daily, so I can feel that my body is slowly building more muscle and hopefully, diet aside, the weight will start to fall away soon. The NP running my mind/body program told me to stay away from hot power yoga and only do gentle/restorative yoga throughout this process because power yoga sends the wrong messages to your brain, its more detoxifying and yang based versus nourishing and yin based. I was following the recommendations for awhile, but wasn't feeling like I was getting a good workout, so I gave up and am back to hot yoga. I can't help it, it feels so good and it's the only way I know how to get myself in shape quickly. I will stop the power yoga soon as I get closer to EC and ET and stick solely to less vigorous yoga, but for now I feel like it doesn't matter. It's more important, i think, for me to feel good right now, than it is to follow a particular regime, because seriously, none of it probably matters anyway, it seems so random.
I start my mind/body program tonight and am really looking forward to these next 8 weeks. I think I am going to learn a lot, and hopefully it will help keep me somewhat sane. Historically, I am a bit more emotional (understatement) on extra hormones, and these doses are going to be much higher than what I was on before. And so it begins, but I am ready to face this head on.

Briss- I say go on vacation!!


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## Breaking Dawn

Hi ladies...

Go in to start ivf next week.

Blythe..I'm also ovulating soon...very wet down there today. we BD yesterday. ...for FUN...lol.

I think we will BD again tmrw....and give this last try before ivf...lol.

I told DH give me one more shot hun. ...before I have to start the ivf shots...LOL


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## Blythe

Gingmg I'm so interested on how the mind/body program will help you through the IVF. Please share anything you find particularly valuable. I will be doing this alone really as my DH is a bloke and too busy to indulge me and I just don't want to share with anyone else.


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## Breaking Dawn

Blythe...what is mind / body program!?


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## Briss

I missed you ladies! we are such a lovely group :)

*Blythe*, I live about 15 min walk from harley st closer to baker street and I do like this area. DH and I often walk about, it makes me feel so happy to be living here. I do not know how long we will be able to afford it though. your corset making course sounds wonderful! such a great idea. where do you buy all the parts for a corset? btw, I always had different size breasts. from the very beginning they just grew differently, first one then the other which was always smaller and remains smaller to this day. I am not bothered at all. good news on your EWCM. are you taking anything this cycle that may account for this? I think you usually O slightly later so maybe Wednesday/CD12 is good time to BD? I am so relived about what you said on flying. I recall from my research (years ago) that flying was not recommended and it kind of stick with me as an absolute rule. we are actually thinking of breaking up the journey somewhere in Asia for a couple of days both ways. your experience sounds awful! and did it all happen during the first 3 months? 

*gingmg*, how's BCP/Lupron? Do you feel any different? are these daily injections? your dedication to yoga is fantastic! I am yet to motivate myself.... what is power yoga? is it like Kundalini yoga? it's pretty active and i think it's supposed to be detoxifying. maybe it's a good thing that i do not stick with it then. better do conception friendly variety. I definitely need to nourish my yin cos am running out of eggs and yin... good luck with your mind/body program, please report back, I am so interested!

*Breaking Dawn*, best of luck with IVF but then who knows you may not even need it :) wouldn't it be wonderful!


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## gingmg

Power yoga is just a faster pace/more intense yoga and the room is heated anywhere from 85-100 degrees. It is different that kundalini yoga. I will slow it down soon, but am desperate to try to get my old body back first.

Yes, the Lupron is daily. So far so good, but it does leave a nasty welt on my stomach for an hour or so after and the area gets very itchy. Didn't have that on gonal-f, but I guess every injection is different. I don't think I feel differently so far, but my wife has made a few comments about the road ahead, so I might be slightly more snipy without even realizing it.

Breaking dawn- I am doing an 8 week fertility mind/body program alongside IVF. It's a program offered by one of the big IVF centers in the city for women going through fertility treatments. I don't know too much about it yet, but sounds like it's learning about the stress response and learning ways to quiet it through yoga, deep breathing, meditation, and guided imagery. I think there will be about 15 of us in the program. I am really excited! My wife found the program and forced me to sign up because I was such a beast to deal with and was so depressed. Hoping it helps either bring me success with IVF, or coping skills should I not have first time success. 

I will certainly report back anything that seems useful...


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## Blythe

Ahead of my IVF I have really tried to bring my supplement intake back to basics. All these synthetic and expensive vitamins have got me nowhere so far. 

This month 

Pregnacare
Folate
Spirulina 
Coq10 (only 100 instead if usual 500-600)

I think that's it. I miss some days 

I have been getting podcasts on fertility meditations and find just breathing out and saying some thing like "I release control/I am not in control" helps with the crazy thoughts.


----------



## BBbliss

Hi beautiful ladies! I was away on a business trip but kept reading updates whenever possible.

Briss, how exciting! I hope you booked your trip, you really need the vacation from it all besides once you have that baby forget all the exciting adventures Lol

Blythe, what do you fell works best for EWCM? this cycle I had none! I had to use preeseed. 

ging, I wish I had a mind body program here. It sounds great. I'm doing my own work, going to seminars, listening to motivation and inspirational recordings, etc.I still need to go back to yoga. You are inspiring me :) but like you I feel I get unstable with taking hormones, I had trouble with the smallest dose of clomid, and that's my biggest fear with IVF, what the drugs are going to do with my mood.

breaking, like you I was frustrated that my IVF wasn't starting right away and then I relaxed and told myself that way my body would have a change to do it itself before IVF, so I'm keeping my fingers crossed for you too and I hope yo get a BFP NOW! 

so AFM, I just booked a couple of tests I still need to do before my IVF, mammogram, culture and listen to this! I need to have a session with a psychologist prior to IVF because we are not married, really? at my age? now that is a waste of time and money but apparently it's required. I'm currently on my 2ww and I POAS today just to satisfy my urge LOL, I Oed a couple of days later this cycle I think from taking BC and tribulus, but I'm now only taking a prenatal, co Q10, omega3 and Larginine. So as it is right now I think we are looking to start IVF next month, I haven't had my nurse consultation yet and that's only going to happen after this saline test I need to do on my next cd5-10, I expect my next cycle to start Feb 1st.


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## gingmg

The first session of my program went really well. Seems like a nice group of women. We mostly just listened to a presentation on stress and the effects on the body and learned about the relaxation response and ways to evoke it including imagery, yoga, mindfulness and deep breathing. We did a guided meditation and then were given homework for the week which includes every day writing down in detail 3 things we are appreciative or grateful for (and it can be something small or silly, just that we describe it in some detail). She wants to encourage us to think positively. We were also given 3 meditation CDs and are supposed to meditate for 15-20 mins every day- essentially just relaxing and listening to which ever CD we like the best. We are suppose to practice "non judgmental awareness", meaning it doesn't matter if our minds wander off, just acknowledge the mind chatter and move on. She thinks it will slowly get easier to meditate over time. It was a lot of info, we were given a large book that we are going to be slowly working through. The program is based on Alice Domar's work, our instructor mentored with her. I think the biggest thing that she will be emphasizing is positive thinking and that meditating every day will have a huge impact on our coping throughout this process.


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## gingmg

So one of the exercises we did was read from a slide out loud, as a group. 

Here do it now yourself, say each word out loud.

Fear, depression, sadness, anger, despair, isolation, darkness, pain, loneliness.

By the time we got to the bottom of the list you could feel this heavy, awful energy throughout yourself and actually the whole room. Then we did the same exercise with words like these. Say these out loud.

fun, happy, laughter, love, light, giggle, joy

Then the room felt much better. I guess it was just the point that our minds and thoughts play a large role in how we feel, which in turn plays a large role in how we live. She was not in any way down playing any of the depression or anxiety that any of the women have been dealing with or to say that this work was going to be easy. She said that women battling infertility report the same level of distress and depression as women who have cancer or HIV. That's some statistic hugh!?!?


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## Blythe

gingmg - thanks so much for jotting down what they have been teaching - all sounds very positive and sensible.

just saying words out loud can sometimes change the way we feel - something so simple but so effective. i like affirmations and i do use them. 
I just feel so cynical with it all though. I have been doing this for over 3 years and i have tried everything and each time i found something new, meditation for fertility, yoga for fertility, chinese medicine etc etc i have been excited then after a few months just left thinkingwhy bother.I guess the positive thinking can help us cope but I'm not sure if it can affect the success of a cycle??

still i feel surprisingly balanced at the moment but of course expect this to change alot when i start with the drugs and appts. i feel very certain that i am coming to the end of my TTC journey whatever the outcome.

i have been trying hard to keep rubbish food to a minimum but this week i have been struggling - its so cold outside that i just want to keep eating. 

BBBliss - I'm not sure why i have had great EWCM this cycle but maybe cutting down sugar loads [well before this week] helped my hormonal balance, perhaps it was taking some new spirulina tablets.I'm just not sure.


----------



## Blythe

ps - i have been having an avocado every other day - i wonder if thats helped?!?


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## gingmg

Blythe- I know what you mean about wondering if any of it helps with the outcome of cycle, maybe/maybe not, but if this IVF fails I am going to need to be more grounded than I have been or else I will really be in a bad place. I think it's just learning some tools to better handle the journey. Truth be told, I used to be on meds for years and years but came off of them a few months prior to TTC because they were not safe for pregnancy. It has been hard to manage my emotions without my meds, I mean I am fine, but overall am less grounded than I used to be, or at least I have to work much harder at it. That is why yoga is so important for me, it's the only way I have to naturally balance myself. Well, now hopefully this program will help with some of that too.
YAY for lots of EWCM! And your corsets sound lovely.

Briss- Is your cold better?

Breakingdawn- It's getting closer! Sounds like we are on the same cycle, you are starting with stim meds right? I start those next week too.

BBliss- I am surprised they told you that the counseling session was because you aren't married, at our clinic it's mandatory for everyone prior to the first treatment, be it IUI or IVF.

Been thinking of JuniperJules lately and hoping she is enjoying this time.


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## BBbliss

Ahhh yes! Maybe avocados are good, I know they are rich in omega fatty acids and vit E and vit k


https://humrep.oxfordjournals.org/content/26/5/1138.full


Please read the post girls, I knew I had read something before about positive thinking and IVF outcome, so here it is

Ging, you are not alone I too have been severely depressed in the past and found balance with a combination do meditation, affirmation and yoga. I'm a true believer that the what and how you think affects your feelings and your hormones, and it affects every cell in your body as a whole. 

Blythe, I know it's hard sometimes, but you are not too of when you talk about giving up, maybe just replace "giving up" with surrendering and accepting the process as a growing experience of self discovery, and staying open and positive is important no matter what. Believe " from this experience only good will come". I try to do that and it has helped me stay grounded and still happy. I know I haven't been trying as long but don't forget forget Im a few years ahead chronologically :) my body needs all the positive thinking I can manage. 

Btw, I had a temp rise today 11dpo with ewcm with brownish tint, tested neg on HPT, lets see if AF comes in the next couple of days or... Fingers crossed!


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## Breaking Dawn

gingmg said:


> Blythe- I know what you mean about wondering if any of it helps with the outcome of cycle, maybe/maybe not, but if this IVF fails I am going to need to be more grounded than I have been or else I will really be in a bad place. I think it's just learning some tools to better handle the journey. Truth be told, I used to be on meds for years and years but came off of them a few months prior to TTC because they were not safe for pregnancy. It has been hard to manage my emotions without my meds, I mean I am fine, but overall am less grounded than I used to be, or at least I have to work much harder at it. That is why yoga is so important for me, it's the only way I have to naturally balance myself. Well, now hopefully this program will help with some of that too.
> YAY for lots of EWCM! And your corsets sound lovely.
> 
> Briss- Is your cold better?
> 
> Breakingdawn- It's getting closer! Sounds like we are on the same cycle, you are starting with stim meds right? I start those next week too.
> 
> BBliss- I am surprised they told you that the counseling session was because you aren't married, at our clinic it's mandatory for everyone prior to the first treatment, be it IUI or IVF.
> 
> Been thinking of JuniperJules lately and hoping she is enjoying this time.

Yes it's almost here....I start lupron next week then goin for u/s and then start stims....so we will be pretty much right on track...maybe few days apart. 

So glad to have a buddy :flower:


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## BBbliss

Ging, I'm in Florida and that's what they said about the psychologist session. They said it was required if I'm single.


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## Briss

my cold is much better which is a relief. I really cant afford to be ill, so much work to do. AF got me today, depressing but on the other hand 28 day cycle and CD14 ovulation is fantastic, although FF got totally confused and got my O date wrong by two days. I have not had many of those since my lap&dye two years ago and Chinese herbs did not help at all to get my cycle back to normal seems like quitting the herbs was the right thing to do for me. also maybe IVF meds somehow helped but I doubt it. unfortunately I am off to a business trip during my fertile days, I used to be so good at planning these trips so we do not miss my O but I guess I am just not sure DH's SA improved yet (it's been only 2 weeks since he started the treatment) we probably still do not have much of a chance anyway. 

I did not have much EWCM last cycle so will try EPO this time.

bad news on NZ trip front, it's clashing with my other business trip so not sure if I can get out of it or find a replacement so we could still go to NZ. 

whenever I hear about "surrendering and accepting" I just want to cry or do not want to live any more&#8230; there are things that you just cannot accept, you will never be OK with it. but obviously it's very personal I know a lot of women who are totally fine with not having children and would even prefer it that way

BBbliss, I think being forced into a psychologist session just because you are single is total nonsense! makes me angry, what does it matter single or married. btw your chart looks very promising, fingers crossed!

ladies, best of luck with your IVfs, please keep us posted!


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## BBbliss

Sometimes "surrendering and accepting" could just be a small step in the direction of a better future, like in the power of now, just accept it hasn't happen YET, surrendering to me is just going with what's next for me and staying positive lets me stay clear and ready for my next step. If its IVF then so be it. I'm not suggesting accepting a life with no children, nothing is certain or final, and as far as I believe, we all have our future children to live for.


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## Briss

BBbliss, thanks for clarifying that. makes total sense. actually I think I have accepted the fact that I am not pregnant yet, I mean it obviously takes a bit of crying now and again but then I move on and focus on the next cycle and so on &#8211; to me that's accepting? I surrendered to IVf (hard as it was) and accepted that even this failed (twice!), I accept that it will most likely going to take more IVF (no idea how many more). I cant say it's making me feel better though. obviously from time to time I ask myself why? why does it have to be so hard? that's probably not quite accepting but these moments come and go. I accept the uncertainly and the length of the journey but I do need to believe it's going to end well &#8211; is this accepting? 

I do read the power of now but I think it's of limited use. there are situations where things become overwhelming and you could use this technique but some of the things we are struggling with are just huge: losing somebody you love and infertility &#8211; I cant just stay in the present and pretend that it's not bothering me just because in this particular moment it's not a problem as such. maybe I am missing something

a colleague of mine has gone on maternity leave, every time I pass her office and see her empty chair it hurts&#8230; it's just a reminder I am not pregnant yet and in the time I've been TTC lots of people have gone on to have 2-3 children while my future remains uncertain


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## Blythe

i just read that bit about walking past the empty seat and it really resonated with me. The girl i have spoken about before who met a new guy, married him and then had a child is about to return from fertility leave. i started ttc way before she even met him.

anyhow, when she left it was physically painful to see her empty seati know she is already trying and i just cannot bear to see her go through another pregnancy. of course i will bear it and will make the right noises [i will probably be genuinely happy for her] but oh my the thought of it makes me feel scared of how i will respond inside. i hate those feelingsi just want to be pregnant.

bbbliss - i read your response on a crowded underground train and it made me smile - i love how positive you are and it really helped :)


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## Briss

Blythe, I am still feeling very raw about that last incident when I went to visit a colleague who just gave birth after my failed IVF and completely lost it. i so clearly realised my limitations, I can be nice and attentive to pregnant women and women with children but ultimately it's going to cost me my mental health. when we were seeing my pregnant colleague off everyone was like please send us the pictures and come and visit with a baby and I was like no way I really cant take it. that's probably also not quite accepting ... then I just do not know what accepting is, i just cant be OK with other people getting constantly pregnant, I got to the point where I begin to resent B&B because most people I've met here have gone on to have children even after LTTTC and I am still doing the same thing over and over again like a broken record AF - O - TWW - AF. it used to give me hope seeing other LTTTCer getting pregnant but not anymore (I mean I still feel happy when smb here gets pregnant I just do not feel hopeful about my chances)

sorry to be so negative, it's CD 1 talking (washed down with a few glasses of red...), am off to bed will try to go back to feeling positive in the morning


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## Blythe

Just realised i put 'fertility leave' instead of maternity leave!

There is no getting around it Briss - you have been trying for over 3.5 year for your first childits a killer. I think you have been very good at moving forward through this process as you have had to deal with so much, so many tests, appts, worrying waits etc.

i have to say i found working with the positive thinking/cosmic ordering stuff ok'ish around the 1-2.5 year markafter that i just sunk and thought this crap does not make a difference but I'm trying to give it another go.

i do totally understand its power to deal with trauma thoughand going through fertility treatments, dealing with LTTTC, etc etc is traumatic and we need to empower ourselves to deal with it wherever and however we can.

i do know what you mean about acceptancei feel 'i don't want to accept it', i want to be pregnant, i want what others have and i want it now. i have been listening to some fertility affirmations from a podcast and she starts it by saying 'things will happen for you when the time is right" and she really emphasises the WILL which i find picks me up.by afternoon I'm usually sinking again. I feel the same about positive thinking as i do about losing weighti have a really good run at it and then go into sabotage mode and mess up all my good work.

Briss - i know you have had results that make you fearful but the facts are you have a regular cycle, you ovulate every month, your DH has sperm and you do have some years left before those eggs are gone. You may have to have another IVF, perhaps a couple more. You are both taking positive steps to move forward with this and i look forward to see what will result from your DH's treatment.

If you do need to have IVF, have you decided which clinic you would like to work with? Im sorry about your NZ trip being under threat.you work very hard.

i am off to the corset course again today which will be great. So far we have sewn samples in order to get the fit right but today we are sewing it up in the final fabric. it involves lots of measuring and calculation so i find it totally absorbingthe other women on the course are also lovely so it's really nice to hang out with some girls as i work only with men.

i am hoping my near constant eating this week has not sabotaged my fit!


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## Briss

oh Blythe, who needs fertility affirmations from a podcast when I can just read and re-read your posts!! you always find just the right things to say and your posts make me feel so much more positive about our situation and I feel I have a bit more strength to carry on. 

I've found somebody who can replace me on my business trip so I could go to NZ. It's not entirely great cos I am most likely sabotaging my upcoming promotion but I have done a lot of damage to my career anyway by refusing to go on various trips while I was undergoing IVF without providing a proper explanation (no one knows about IVF). A few times I did not go when I was in TWW and did not want to fly (in case it harms an embryo, if there ever was an embryo...) because I always put TTC first (rightly or wrongly). but I still work weekends and ridiculous hours from time to time I am just trying not to let it get to me.

'fertility leave' - so funny! that's what it is, we are on a very extensive fertility leave :)

I do not think I can believe in "positive thinking/cosmic ordering" or that "things will happen for you when the time is right", who is to judge what's the right time? from my experience most people get pregnant at a very wrong time in their life and just deal with it the best they can. My problem in believing in all this stuff is based on the fact that it's all made up by people. someone comes up with an idea and everyone follows it but it does not make it true. there will always be people getting lucky and attributing it to positive thinking etc. 

re losing weight, that cold really ruined things for me so I need to try and get back to my dieting mode. actually AF is a really good motivator to lose weight. as my cycle goes closer to its end I find it harder and harder to motivate myself to lose weight, I think there is some subconscious part of me that wants to believe I am pregnant and should not really diet. 

I do wonder why we cant get pregnant despite the age, my cycle is regular and DH's does have a few millions, even IVF failed - why? could it be that we just were unlucky with the first embryo and Create messed up our second cycle? or is it something more serious that stops us getting pregnant. The urologist did say that even with DH's low count it was not that low and we should have got pregnant by now. what is it? I just need to be patients and wait until we can repeat SA most likely in april to see if there was any improvement and then go ahead with the next IVF. We will start at UCH and try to get the NHS funding but if my stats are still bad we will have to see, we can self fund stim IVF at UCH if they will have us with my stats and if not we will most likely go to Lister. My FS said it's also possible that UCH will offer to do NHS-funded IUI if DH's SA is good enough by then, that's something else we could explore. 

enjoy your corset course! sounds brilliant! 

I have really bad headache today after all the drinking last night and still so much work to go through by Monday... at least I have my coffee and a cake (or two)!


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## BBbliss

Thinking about you girls... I'm about to go on a job and don't have time to post but just wanted to leave a hug for each of you

Xoxoxoxo


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## Jazzbird

Thinking about you gals too. I'm still actively reading and waiting for the BFPs that you all deserve. 

Briss my heart goes out to you for your long struggle - I can't imagine how hard it must be going through the endless monthly cycles. But you are getting good treatment for your OH and he has toned down the drinking - these are positive steps that can make a real difference. I'm hoping next ivf is your magic one, if not a natural bfp before.

Stay strong lovely ladies: Blythe, Briss, gingmg, bbbliss, breaking ... And Juniper - where have you gone? We want a bonking update!! 

Xxx


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## Breaking Dawn

Hi ladies. 

Just wanted to say hi...busy wknd and now it's relaxing sunday! 

I've got an appts this week spsd to pick up lupron.


----------



## BBbliss

Holly Molly! I start BCP today! It's for real now :/


----------



## Blythe

Bbbliss I'm sorry AF has arrived but excited for the journey ahead. I start mine probably on the 14th. do you take the bcp for 21 days?


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## BBbliss

Blythe, i know, it's ok I was really nervous but I think I'm starting to get excited, why not? Lol. I will be taking them from two to three weeks. I go in on Tuesday the 11th for a mock transfer and they will talk about a schedule then. I guess you and I will be very close then :)

How about you ging? And breaking? Where exactly are you?


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## Breaking Dawn

BBbliss said:


> Blythe, i know, it's ok I was really nervous but I think I'm starting to get excited, why not? Lol. I will be taking them from two to three weeks. I go in on Tuesday the 11th for a mock transfer and they will talk about a schedule then. I guess you and I will be very close then :)
> 
> How about you ging? And breaking? Where exactly are you?

I'm due for AF in approx a week....but I go in to see the nurse wed to pick up lupron.

I guess you will start a few wks after me...?


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## gingmg

I finished BCP and have been on Lupron for about a week? I had my suppression check today and all is quiet so I start gonal-f on fri and will still cont Lupron at a lower dose throughout stimms. Got my "period" yesterday, day 28, right on time. My body is determined to bleed despite the fact that I didn't even ovulate this month and am "suppressed". I guess it's fine either way, some people bleed and some don't, but it's not even lighter than usual. I thought I would have a month off, nope.


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## gingmg

BBbliss- sorry about AF. I am excited, though, that we are all on this journey. :hugs:

I do my meditation CDs every day and there is one part that you envision people around you having positive experiences. So I envision everyone in this thread is 9 months pregnant with healthy babies. Just trying to put it out there.:dance:


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## BBbliss

Wow, isn't it incredible how we are all doing this together, I can't call it a coincidence and I am just so happy I have you girls to share and be here for. I'm so grateful, I wound know what to do on my own

Ging, I envision us all trading baby pictures :)

Please keep sharing your progress girls :hugs:


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## Breaking Dawn

Ging....that's sending the positive vibes!!

I'm off to pick up lupron tomorrow 

Bc we did BD during this cycle....I'm going to ask got bloodwork just to make sure AF is on its way,


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## Blythe

Gingmg wow this seems to be moving so fast :) how long were you taking the bcp? :flower:


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## Breaking Dawn

Starting lupron tomorrow!!

Picked it up and had bloodwork to confirm no hcg/bfp 

Got the call that it's negative.

So IVF here I come!!


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## gingmg

Blythe- yes its going fast. I was on BCP for 21 days. Start gonalf on Fri.


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## BBbliss

This is all going to start going really fast now!

Good luck breaking and ging :)

So I stumbled upon this site ivfauthority.com , I thinks and found so much good info there, I really liked the dr. He has a lot there on ivf and I found it very informative. So I wrote him a question and he responded within minutes, I think it was 6:30am there. Well, he told me to ask for "embryo banking" and do a FET. It made a lot of sense specially now that I had such a short AF, I had one regular day and one very light day and that was it!!! So I think I'm going to ask for a later transfer. Anything to give me better odds.


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## gingmg

I don't understand what embryo banking is. Are you going to freeze all and do a FET later? I keep hearing that a lot of people have success with FET. 

If one more person announces their pregnancy (I don't mean anyone here) I am going to seriously loose it. Another nurse announced at work tonight and I actually had to leave the room. Somewhere inside me I am happy for her, but I am just so sad for me. I spent the first few hours of my shift crying in my patient's room. Its a good thing there weren't any parents here and my patient is a baby so didn't notice.
Is it going be my turn soon? 

On another note, its 4months not smoking.


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## Breaking Dawn

Bbliss...yes that site is a great source of information. 

Ging...:hugs: I know what you mean I have a friend who started ttc last month I will be happy but sad if she gets her bfp before mine!

AFM...started lupron injection today...was easy small needle. 

I am photographing my ivf journey....does anyone know how to upload pics from mobile?


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## BBbliss

Ging, that's exactly what it means. He gave me a list of pages I should look at and also said he would do a free Skype consultation. He's in Vegas. I think if this doesn't work the first time I consider going to him. Lets hope I don't have to. Congrats on not smoking. It's huge! 
I have a friend I work with from time to time who met this guy a year ago and she's my age 44. I see her 3months ago and she says " I'm pregnant! I wasn't even trying!" Her first! I was really happy for her, but there's a little pain from knowing how easy it was for her. She's about six months now and posting FB pictures of her growing bump. I try not to be jealous but it's so hard, so I just tell myself "I'll be next" and if her old eggs are good, mine are too, Lol

Breaking! Yes! Post pictures! Did you inject yourself? I was thinking to have DF do that for me so he sees first hand what it's like. I want him as involved as possible.


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## Breaking Dawn

BBliss...yes I did inject myself...it was a syringe and not a pen injection. 
DH was there with me and gave me a high five after...lol

I don't think it's possible to upload pics from my mobile...


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## Kissmark

Just curious, how often do you guys do acupuncture? I just made my first appt next week.


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## gingmg

Kissmark- I used to go weekly for a few months. I stopped for financial reasons but am hoping to at least go before and after ivf transfer. I don't know if other people still go or not. I loved it when I used to go, I hope you find it relaxing and helpful too.


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## smurfy

Kissmark said:


> Just curious, how often do you guys do acupuncture? I just made my first appt next week.

Hey there - when I first started going around 10 mths ago, i went weekly to work things out, basically my cycle could vary from 30-40 daya often somewhere in the middle, so we wanted to try and bring cycle down. It did work and it came down to around 32 each month. She then recommended i come once or twice a month, but the key for my situation was to push the ovaulation through so I would go 2nd week in my cycle. 

Then I was put on clomid for last 3 months and did the 2nd week in my cycle and last week as I was getting very bad headaches.

It depends what your really going for, so maybe a few more at the beginning and see what they say. I will be starting ivf either apr or may and will continue with accuputure too good luck x


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## gingmg

How is everyone?


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## BBbliss

Hi ging! Happy sunday:)

Here reading reading about IVF protocols. It's so confusing to me, I still don't know exactly what my doses will be, I'll know Tuesday, but I see myself as a "special case" lol, while my resting follicle count and AMH are high, I'm still "old" with diminished egg quality so I don't know what my ovaries will respond to. 

I feel great I went to yoga yesterday and decided to join the gym, they have all kinds of styles, hot, restorative and everything in between. I also booked my next acupuncture treatment for tomorrow and will go once a week from here on. 

How about about you? How are you doing? And everyone else? :)


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## gingmg

Yay for yoga! I've been doing it 3-5 times a week and its incredible how much better I feel. Slowly feeling stronger too. This will be my last week of hot yoga then I will back off to some more gentle types. I should go to acupuncture again, maybe will look into it.
Doing OK, feeling more emotional. Not sure if its the meds? I'm kinda snippy and I don't even realize it. My wife might trade me in soon. Im just soooooooooooo scared ivf is not going to work. I'm also scared I'm on too low doses, it doesn't seem all that much higher than iui. I'm trying to let go and trust, but its hard. That program is helpful, but its a lot of work and it is hard to shift my brain chemistry.


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## Blythe

Hi girls. Thinking of you all. I will be starting the bcp this week so just waiting. Feel terrified too that this won't work. It is one go only for us so by April my TTC journey will be over one way or the other. 

I had meant to have got a regular exercise/meditation program in place by now but work has been so frantic that it's it going to happen. I'm back to caffeine and sugar and may try to eliminate it again. Might be easier when I'm taking the meds and it's real. 

Gingmg sorry to hear you are feeling a bit off. I hope it passes soon. Hey I wanted to say well done on keeping off the cigs for so long. You should be very proud as it is a fantastic achievement. 

Bbbliss. Great about the yoga. I should just do some in front of the tv as my back has been playing up. I may do some ACU whilst stimming but still undecided. 

I hate typing on iPhones. It takes forever and I have to correct everything!!


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## gingmg

Blythe- I'm so excited that you are starting soon. Will you freeze any of the embies and try a FET if the first round doesn't work?


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## Blythe

Oh most certainly. In for a penny, In for a pound and all that. But, no more fresh IVFs after this. 

The weeks have gone so quickly that I can hardly believe you are all steaming forwards with your cycles. I predict only good things for you all :)


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## gingmg

I think this thread is gonna start getting lucky.....I hope so anyway.


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## BBbliss

I can't hardly believe myself! Remember when we just talked about it? I'm with you Blythe. I predict a lot of good news coming out of this group. Ging, I'm also scared they won't find the right doses for me, but keep trying to tell myself to let go and let life unfold.


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## gingmg

Yea, I guess I have to just let go. Its not like I have any idea about any of this, its only what I read on here.


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## BBbliss

From what I've read no one knows how each one of us will respond to the meds, not even the specialists themselves, I read from a dr's post that that's why sometimes the second IVF has better outcomes, because by then they know how you respond individually to the protocol, the problem is it is a very very expensive way to find out. I'm just asking the universe to guide the person making that decision on my behalf and that the best route be taken. Not only for myself but for all of us here.


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## gingmg

Oh I like that.


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## Kissmark

Thanks for the replies ladies. I was taking Chinese herbal medicine for 6 months. But it just got too troublesome and costly for me. I needed to brew my own medicine everyday and it's not the tastiest drink in the world....Plus it's pretty expensive. So I think I will try acupuncture instead. 

By the way I've been told before that 2nd IVF usually has higher success rate, since with the first one they are still trying to get to know your body. We are also considering IVF if we dont have any success with acupuncture for a few cycles. 

Good luck with everyone!


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## Jazzbird

Hi kissmark. I'm an acupuncturist and for fertility we recommend weekly acupuncture because there are specific treatments at each phase of the monthly cycle. For example in cd1-4 the acupuncturist will encourage complete discharge of uterine lining. Cd 5-11 - they will nourish yin and blood to encourage development of egg. Mid cycle they will promote ovulation and transformation of yin to yang. Then post ovulation they nourish yang to encourage a good temperature rise to sustain implantation. 

Of course this is all tailored to your own cycle and tendencies but this would be based on a woman with an average cycle. 

I completely understand the cost of raw herbs is prohibitive but there are powdered herbs which are much much cheaper and still as effective - circa £50 per month. 

I would definitely try acupuncture with herbs if you can find an acupuncturist who is also a herbalist but I would ask for powdered herbs or tea pills (even cheaper).

Good luck


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## Briss

Ladies, well done on your progress, I also have a very good feeling that this thread is gonna start getting lucky soon! Cant wait for those BFPs!

*BBbliss*, I agree getting the doses right is quite tricky but so important. I hope they will come up with the right does for you but I still think with your stats you should respond well. keeping my fingers crossed. 

*gingmg*, I am so impressed with you following your mind/body regime and yoga. I am getting inspired! Ivf is about letting go but not completely because the clinics do not always get it right so some degree of control I think is necessary so ask lots of questions and make sure they explain what and why they are doing. 

*Kissmark*, I had acupuncture once a week. herbs can be quite disgusting but they are very powerful, as far as I know they are even more powerful than acupuncture. I was also brewing my own medicine everyday and it was quite time consuming but the raw herbs are the most potent form of herbs so (if they work for you) you should see the result quicker. 

*Jazzbird*, how are you feeling? has your bump started to show yet?

*Blythe*, good luck with starting the bcp. it's all happening so soon! 

*afm*, I am finally back from my trip. Was rather stressful as I was the main speaker and it was the whole day event!! I think I did well but so relieved that it's all over! No matter how many presentations I have to do it just does not get easier, I stress out every single time cos half the time it does not go well at all. 

I got my PEAk this morning after 5 highs which seems to be a new thing after the failed IVF. I used to get only 3-4 highs. But I do not complain cos I seem to be ovulating later and have longer cycles, that's positive and my sex drive is back this cycle!! unfortunately spotting after AF is still there, that's one thing that got much worse after IVF.

I got my medical docs sent to UCH, am now waiting for UCH to contact me in 4 weeks. Unfortunately the referral letter says my FSH fluctuates so I was warned about the funding issue. although the doc actually concluded that even though my FSH can be very high it has not increased much in the last 2 years. 

We finally booked our NZ flights!!! I cant believe it, I've never gone anywhere that far yet. next few weeks are going to be very intense at work cos I need to finish a lot of things before I go.

my weight loss is not progressing at all. hard to stick to your diet when you are abroad and attending corporate lunches/dinners but from today I am back on my calorie recoding system. I have one month before NZ so determined to lose at least 5 kg and look great.


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## Jazzbird

Hey Briss!

Glad to see you have booked flights to NZ - think its important to have things to look forwards to.

I'm 14 weeks now - think I have a small bump but to be honest it's more bloat than baby. I'm still very sick with permanent nausea and vomiting twice weekly. I've had it 8 weeks now - starting to think I may be one of the 5% that gets it the whole way through. 

Re herbs - the raw are the most potent but the powdered ones are also very strong. The benefit of acupuncture as opposed to herbs is that the treatment is tailored to the body's state if balance at the point of treatment. This is especially true as woman's body fluctuates so much throughout the monthly cycle. 

Love to everyone - waiting for these bfps and excitedly following the ivf journeys. Xxx


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## melly2

Briss, you will love NZ. We just returned a couple months ago and LOVED it!! So jealous.

My Update: Well, I've been through my full round of tests and it was determined that I'm quite healthy and everything is normal. We had our "IVF class" yesterday, and to be honest, after all that, my husband and I were both have serious second thoughts. So much so, that he came to me this morning and thought that we should cancel the procedure. He was crying and said how he felt bad for putting me through all this when it's clearly "his fault". Of course, he didn't choose to get testicular cancer. We had a very long discussion and I have the ability to talk myself out of anything, but then I decided to proceed with this round and see how I respond. Since it's being covered by insurance, we mind as well try, and if it doesn't work, then we won't proceed any further. I'll tell you, I'm literally on the fence about this, and had it not been covered by insurance, there's no way we'd be doing this. It just seems like a lot of shots, prescriptions, drugs, and procedures just to get pregnant at the age of 38. The age thing isn't helping matters either, because my husband's parents had him at 38 and he always thought they were "old" growing up. 

I know for most women, this would be a slam dunk and they would be excited, but I'm not. I can't explain why, but there is a side of me that is already mourning a loss. Perhaps it's my loss of controlling my own body and what I perceived to be an easy conception. I don't know...it's hard to explain.


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## BBbliss

Briss, NZ sounds amazing! What a treat!

Jazz, yay for being over the first trimester, it must feel great :)

Melly, it's nobody's fault, it's just part of your story, now just look ahead and let it go. You guys are so lucky to be covered by insurance and that's a huge gift. You know, every kid thinks their parents are old, lol and besides times have really changed, parents are just older now and when your kids go to school you are going to be just like every other kid's parents. Oh and that negative feeling you are having is just your ego trying to tell you you should have been able to do it without medical help. I felt the same, I WANTED to do it alone, to say I did it. It was hard to let go control, but now I'm getting excited, just taking it one day at a time. 

So, I just got back from my trial transfer and all went well, we did another AFC and it was much lower then six months ago (23) and it was today 12, six on each side, it's still a good number and I'm happy with that, it may sound strange but I'm more commutable with that number, I was really worried about Hyper-stimulation before. They put me on 600mg coq10, dhea and baby aspirin. I'll finish my 3ws of bcp and once AF arrives I start the injections. They are giving me cetrotide instead of luprom and said at my age I'd respond better to the cetrotide. Then it's ER second wk of March, they will do PGS, freeze 5/6d embryos and plan FET 2nd wk of May (more or less) I was disappointed thinking it was going to be April, but oh well... They said they will be in full control making sure my body is in perfect condition for transfer. I liked it that they talked to me as if all of it is going to go in perfect order and we will be successful. I don't like the "worse case scenario" approach myself. I'm a pretty positive person and I do believe in miracles :) so this doctor and staff play on my team :) they are awesome.


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## gingmg

Briss- NZ sounds amazing!!!

Melly- You have to do what is right for you, and like BBbliss said, it's nobody's fault. I also agree that most people are waiting to have kids these days, so it will feel "normal" to the children to have "older" parents.

Had my first scan today. Lining was good at 8mm and there are 3 lead follies just over 10mm and about 12 more under 10mm. They only count them if they are greater than 10mm, so really this isn't a great response, but it's still early. They upped my gonal-f dose to 300iu and I go back in a few days. Hopefully, some more will start growing. We shall see. Going to yoga now. Have a good night ladies.


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## melly2

Thanks for your response. I'm feeling better about it now. I don't know, a peace came over me this afternoon. I just lead it be. I have my ultrasound this Friday (last time I had 17 follicles), then I start my injections on Saturday; two different injections to get things growing. So..next week should be interesting. I'm curious if I'll have any side effects. This will go on for the next 8 days, and then the stimulation shot, and then retrieval the last week of Feb. Depending on how they grow, we were planning to freeze them and send them off to genetic testing (CCS). If they are growing really well, then they will go ahead and implant that first week in March. I'm anxious to see how everyone does on this board. I'm glad to know I'm not in this alone.


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## Breaking Dawn

Melly - i felt that loss too...and really had to mourn and cry and get passed it...for me it was a loss of doing all this naturally easily..having sex and getting pregnant ...the loss of the pure ignorant joy of ttc and bfp and pregnancy with no worries.

I had to cry my way through that and like you...one day it was all clear and i said ok let's do this. 

How is everyone....sorry haven't been here but I've been so busy I have been following along though!

AFM...i took lupron....and now I'm waiting for AF. tmrw is CD28 so she's due any day and then I call the nurse to find out when I go in for baseline and when I stim. 

Happening so fast.....who else started stims???


----------



## Briss

*Blythe*, how are you? 

*Jazzbird*, 14 weeks! that's great. I am sorry nausea and vomiting are still there. do you carry on with acu/herbs?

*melly*, How was NZ? was it your first time? anything to look out for? great news that your tests came back normal, at least some comfort that you are fine and should be able to respond well to IVF meds. IVF was a very hard decision for us as well, as you know it took me 2 years to come to terms with it. I resented IVF up until ET, but as soon as I had that little embryo inside nothing else mattered and I could not care less about how it got there. it was an amazing feeling! even though both times it failed I do not regret trying, I just wish we went to a different clinic for the second cycle. It's definitely IVf for us as well. as soon as we are back from NZ I will start my 3rd cycle, most likely April/May. Your DH's words " my husband's parents had him at 38 and he always thought they were "old" growing up." really stuck with me, I remember how one of my classmate's parent were much older and we all felt sorry for her that she had parents who look more like grandparents. interestingly her mother was a ballet dancer and she had her only after she retired which was probably mid 30s&#8230; but I have to say the girl was truly gifted and is doing much better than most of my classmates who had younger parents. Being an older parent might be sad but not being a parent is much worse so let's keep on going! I agree with BBbliss, it's so lucky you have insurance. 

*BBbliss*, great news that trial transfer went well! it's so important that ET goes smoothly. 12 follicles is still pretty good! It's so interesting that your clinic put you on 600mg coq10, dhea and baby aspirin. very advanced clinic I must say. I had a break from vitamins but now I am going back into my usual regime and will follow yours i.e. top up my coq10 to 600 from the next cycle. I am still not keen on dhea though. 

*gingmg*, your lining looks good! what day of stims are you on?

*Breaking Dawn*, it's fantastic that so many of you are doing IVf at the same time, and you are right things are moving fast on this thread. good luck starting stims let us know how it goes. 

*afm*, I did not bother temping this cycle, I have been having toothache on and off and I think it affected my temp cos it's raised so no point temping. besides after 30 cycles with CBFM and temping I have a very good idea about my O and most times I am right. am back to dieting but not as aggressively as before, motivation is just not there. 

I was supposed to have lunch with a pregnant colleague who got lucky on her first IVF and was preparing myself morally to face her and be happy for her. I know she was off sick and I assumed it was pregnancy related, stupid me. apparently she mc at 8 weeks&#8230; how sad


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## melly2

Briss: We LOVED, Loved, LOVED NZ! We went to Auckland, Rotorua, Waitomo Caves, then flew down to the South island; going to Queenstown, Milford Sound (Kayaked the entire sound!), Mt. Cook, Mt. John and then over to Christchurch. Are you going to both islands? We loved it, and only wished we stayed longer. It was a much needed break from TTC and really helped us "reset". There's so much to see and do there, you truly can't go wrong. 

After talking to my husband, I'm feeling much better about things. People are having children later in life, and unlike my mother-in-law, I've always been very healthy and active. My husband has siblings 15 years older, and he always hears stories about how his parents would take them camping and hiking. He always felt, because of their age, they no longer did that for him. All that said, I am a totally different person from my in-laws, and I will be a very active parent, regardless of my age. The moment that baby is born (fingers crossed), that baby will be in a running stroller with me pushing them along. Additionally, I know that I am in a much better positions, both financially and emotionally, to be parent now than I ever would have been in my 20s. I'm happy that I enjoyed my 20s and spent many quality years with my husband, and I have no regrets on waiting. My only regret, is waiting after my husband's cancer, but who could've predicted that.

Everyone on this board has been very comforting, and it's great to see that I'm not alone in this IVF journey. Because of everyone's kind words, I am feeling SO MUCH better about it now.


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## gingmg

Melly I am glad you are feeling better. Ivf is tough to swallow. At least for me, I didn't want to believe my body couldn't do this on its own. Then I got to a point where having a family was more important than the way we made our family. And I think Briss is right, once the transfer happens, the rest just doesn't matter anymore. I am glad you are feeling better.


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## Briss

*melly*, That's so exciting! We are flying to Auckland, taking a car and driving all the way to Christchurch, we have about 2 weeks in NZ, hopefully enough to see most of the interesting things and then we fly to Sydney for the remaining week. Everyone at work calls my leave a sabbatical :) it's just really rare that smb is allowed 3 weeks off. 

I also cant imagine myself being a good parent in my 20s. I was so out of it, I was poor running around the world trying different things and I only more or less settled into a career and relationship by 30-32, we started TTC at 34 and that was the ideal time for me to have children. never happened but then somehow I always get things very late in life: losing virginity, getting married, having a career - all happened much later for me compared to most of my peers so i am hoping the children will happen, just a little later


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## Blythe

Hi Girls

I'm ok&#8230;.i took delivery of my drugs today so my fridge is full. i have it all inc. progesterone so 995 should be the limit of my spend on drugs. i hope i get to use the progesterone after all this.

i had a slight bleed this morning but AF is not yet in full swing so will not start the BCP until she starts properly i guess which should be friday. i wonder if it matters whether i start it a day or two early&#8230;.



i have been trying to work out my IVF schedule. All i know is i take the BCP for 21 days. i do have an appt with nurse next thurs where she will teach us injection stuff and hopefully provide a timeline for me so i can try and suss out my work situation. I have buserelin and gonal f but not clue how much i will be taking.

i miss my little chats here but i have been so very stressed at work


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## gingmg

Blythe- I am sorry work has been so stressful, that's always rotten. I hope it starts to ease up soon. I wouldn't take the BCP early, it's only a few more days. It may not matter, but I would follow the instructions. It's all going by so fast!

Briss- that scan was after four days of gonal-f. I have another one in a few days, hoping a few more follies are starting to wake up and join the party!


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## Breaking Dawn

Hi ladies...

Wow so much going on here now...

I'm trying to keep track of who's where...

Ging..and Melly. Looks like we will be very close in cycle.

AF started today for me...so I'm just about to call the clinic to find out when I start gonal f...as I'm currently on lupron. 

I think I will be told to go in for scan on sat and start gonal sat nite. Then after that it's monitoring in cd6 and then everyday starting cd8.

Today is cd1

Who else is starting?

Sooooooo excited we are on this journey together....bfps here we come.


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## BBbliss

Breaking! How exciting!! I'm a little behind, only on 2nd wk of bcp, AF will be around the 27th and start gonal-f maybe the 1st of March, by then you'll have had Your retreaval. Yay!

I'm so glad we can share our experiences. This us such a gift :)


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## Breaking Dawn

Bliss...yes you'll be right behind us!

I've heard that generally stims is for 14 days. So if I start stims on sat...then retrieval will be March 1st onwards.


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## melly2

Wow. We are all within a few weeks apart here. I have been on BCP for the past month and was to stop on Tuesday, which I did, because I was suppose to start my stimulation shots on Saturday. HOWEVER, AF decided to start since it was right at that time of the month and I had stopped the BCP. I left a message with my nurse this morning asking what to do, because I was suppose to have my ultrasound tomorrow. That's not gonna happen. I decided to take my BCP today, because I really shouldn't be having a period, so I'm now thinking that I won't start the shots until next week. I'll know more once I talk to my nurse. Ugh! This timing thing is so frustrating. 

Briss: You will love NZ! You can't go wrong! I would love to live there! Downtown Christchurch is still in shambles after the earthquake. There are some great places around Christchurch, however, since there's not much to do in the city itself. I can not wait to hear about your trip.


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## Breaking Dawn

Bliss...yes you'll be right behind us!

I've heard that generally stims is for 14 days. So if I start stims on sat...then retrieval will be March 1st onwards.


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## Blythe

ladies

are you taking any extra supplements whilst stemming or just sticking to the same?

out of interest what supplements are you taking through your cycle?


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## gingmg

Blythe- I am taking a prenatal, dha, epa, co q 10, folic acid, and vit e. Um I did take a baby aspirin from work last night and might do the same tonight. Also melatonin sometimes to sleep. That's it.


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## BBbliss

I'm taking what the clinic told me, 600 coq10, 40-80 DHEA, baby aspirin, prenatal and I added an extra folic acid. I'm just going to stay with what they told me, I was getting really tired of taking so many things before. :p

Melly, what did the nurse say? I was looking at my schedule and I go in for my first scan still on my cd2 , also bloods I guess to get a fresh base to go from, I was thinking I don't even know what my FSH is now, I just know my AFC has dropped by a lot so well see.


----------



## Briss

Ladies, I've been following your IVF progress. best of luck to all of you! BFPs all around

*Blythe*, I am very sorry about all the stress at work, this is the last thing you need while undergoing IVF! are you going to take any time off for EC/ET? I personally definitely recommend taking a day off for EC and at least 4 days after ET.

*Breaking Dawn*, have you booked your first scan? are you starting stims from CD2/today? 

*melly*, NZ is so exciting! I think I will probably just book hotels for the first and last day in Auckland and Christchurch so we have more flexibility where we go and how long we stay at any particular place. Have you started your BCP? Did your clinic explained whether it's normal to have your period? 

*BBbliss*, your FSH was consistently within norm so I do not think you need to check your levels again. AFC can be different from cycle to cycle, yours is still very good so you are with a great chance! 

*afm*, my left ovary is killing me, I think I have probably developed a cyst there, I usually feel them&#8230;

I had a bit of a shock yesterday, apparently if you go private you lose your entitlement to the NHS funded IVF! quite shocking! but it turns out that you are entitled to 3 IVFs (but in our case it's just one) so any private cycle comes out of this entitlement. luckily we only had 2 private cycles so I should still be entitled to my one NHS funded IVF! (FSH permitting). 

something positive &#8211; I am booking tickets to the Sydney opera! they are showing Carmen while we are going to be there!


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## Breaking Dawn

Briss....ive booked my first scan for CD3 which is tomorrow....im expecting to start stims tomorrow as well....gonal f.


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## Breaking Dawn

Happy valentine's day ladies.


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## melly2

Update: Yes, I should have stopped BCP three days ago. The nurse said I am suppose to have my period, that is normal. Oops. So, no more pill for me! I had my first baseline blood work and ultrasound this morning. My ultrasound looked good (ovaries are nice and quiet), and they will know my blood work within the next hour or so. Since I messed up instructions and took the BCP yesterday the only thing it may end up doing is forcing me to do another day or two of stimulation shots. So not a big deal in the long run and my doctor didn't seem concerned. Thank God...I was so worried about that. I will receive my package of shots today, and I will start stimulation shots tomorrow morning. I have a follow-up ultrasound on Wednesday to make sure that the ovaries are being stimulated and such. 

Briss: Your plan for NZ sound perfect! Just go with the flow and book your hotel along the way, and spend more time in places you enjoy. I'm very excited, and envious, of you. Can't wait to hear back. When do you leave again?


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## Briss

Breaking Dawn and melly, looks like you are starting stims on the same day! 

Suddenly so busy at work, did not have any time to do NZ research, although I still have about a month before we leave. WOW, for the first time in years I am actually googling something not TTC related 

I do envy you girls going for your first IVf, hopefully I will be joining your pregnancy club very soon


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## melly2

Briss: I loved planning and having that time in NZ. It was a much needed break from the whole TTC, plus, if something happens this year, then I'm happy we got one last big trip out of the way. I decided if IVF doesn't happen for us, then I will immediately start planning our next trip (either to Italy or Australia). Planning vacations have always been a welcome relief for me and gives me something to look forward to. Enjoy this time now!


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## gingmg

Happy valentines day ladies!


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## gingmg

Had another scan yesterday and there are 9 follies measuring 10-15mm. They need to be roughly 18mm to trigger, so I still have a little bit to go. Have another scan tomorrow. EEEEKKKK this is getting real. My wife called me a lizard with all those follies. It is weird to think about. I actually feel OK on all these meds this time, only a minor freak out the other day. Still been doing yoga and I REALLY LOVE this mind/body program, it's been SOOOOOOO helpful. Such a wonderful group of women. We hardly talk about anything fertility related, it's all meditation, yoga, and so many different exercises in positive thinking. I've been incorporating something into my life everyday and I really do feel better. I have two more hot yoga passes, then I will back off to only gentle yoga after that. I know they told me not to do it during IVF, but it's more important that I feel good, don't you think? I think I am actually starting to loose weight too, finally!!


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## Briss

gingmg, 9 follicles!! fantastic! what dose of stims are you on? there might even be a few more coming out in a few days, fingers crossed!


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## gingmg

I started on 225 of gonal-f then was increased to 300 after the first scan.


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## BBbliss

Yay! 9 is great! What stim day are you on? They'll start me at 150. Maybe you will get more? Like briss says?

Ging I also love your mind body program it sounds just like something I'd totally be into. Btw, I love hot yoga as well but my clinic told me absolute no heat. I think Maybe hold on to your two passes just one more week and do them after your egg collection, that way you can really enjoy and relax and not have to worry.


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## Breaking Dawn

Ging that is great! 

I had CD3 scan today and I'm so sad...i have a cyst on my right ovary. nurse said Dr would review my bloodwork and if hormones don't look good then we can't proceed. :(

It's 2.15pm here...she said nurses make there calls before 5pm.


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## gingmg

Breaking Dawn- I am sorry to hear about your cyst. I have had that before too and it is so frustrating when these things don't go as planned. Maybe you won't have to wait and it is small enough that it will be okay to proceed with stims. If they have you wait, as hard as that is emotionally, it will be what is the best for you body so that when you do move forward, you can do so safely with the greatest possible chance of success. All that said, I hope they give you the green light to start.

BBliss_ Why did they say no heat? All the NP from my program said was that it sends the wrong messages to your brain and it doesn't "promote" reproduction. But right now I'm just trying to grow follicles, why wouldn't it be ok? If this IVF fails I hope I don't blame myself for doing the hot yoga. Today is day 9 of stimms. I'm guessing EC will be tues, wed, or thurs.


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## BBbliss

Ging, wow how exciting you are right there, it will go so fast now. Well, they actually told me no heat, no running and no yoga! And I did ask why and she said to avoid twisting the ovaries. That sounded painful and dangerous but once I asked why she said they don't want any stress on the body and only gentle exercising with no impact like walking or swimming. I just remembered the hot yoga i was going to was brutal and i could hardly keep up so I thought it wouldn't be a good idea for me. I'm trying to do everything just as they ask, like I said I do like them and like you I have put a lot of hope on this one IVF.


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## BBbliss

Breaking, that's so frustrating, I'm praying all blood level are good and you don't have to wait. Fingers crossed!


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## Breaking Dawn

Thank you sooo much for your support Ging and Bliss.

Guess what...I got no call about my bloodwork which means it was all good and no concern. I start Gonal F tonight!!!

Praying this cycle stays on track with no issues...ER here I come :)


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## Briss

Breaking Dawn, i think it depends on what kind of cyst if it's estrogenic then it's safer to wait until it's gone because it may just keep on growing and will take on all the meds. I have a cyst on my right ovary but it's not estrogenic so they did both IVFs with this cyst and even collected an egg form that ovary but it was quite tricky to maneuver the needle. also sometimes if the cyst has clear liquid they just go through it at EC. you need more info on the cyst. I hope it will work out for the best.


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## Breaking Dawn

Briss said:


> Breaking Dawn, i think it depends on what kind of cyst if it's estrogenic then it's safer to wait until it's gone because it may just keep on growing and will take on all the meds. I have a cyst on my right ovary but it's not estrogenic so they did both IVFs with this cyst and even collected an egg form that ovary but it was quite tricky to maneuver the needle. also sometimes if the cyst has clear liquid they just go through it at EC. you need more info on the cyst. I hope it will work out for the best.

Briss thanks so much for sharing.

That makes sense because the nurse said that the Dr will check my hormones inmy bloodwork from today. If it was hormonal she would have called me to let me know to NOT start stims.

But i got no call, so i am to continue on:happydance:


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## gingmg

Breaking that is great news!!!

BBbliss- UM.... I have been all kinds of twisting my ovaries, ooopsss! I hope it's okay. I actually used my last two classes today (one this morning and one tonight) so no more hot yoga for me. I don't think I can give it up completely, but I will back off to only gentle kinds from here on in.


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## gingmg

I just looked it up about hot yoga and IVF, yea it's not good. I wish I knew that twisting could damage the ovaries, I hope my little follies are ok!! I knew twisting in the 2ww or while pregnant is bad but I never thought it could be bad now!


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## BBbliss

Breaking! Yay!

Ging, I'm sure you have been listening to your body and if you have not felt any pain I'd think you should be fine. Those follies are still growing too if you had stressed them you would have felt it. Nine sounds like a safe number, not like 20 or 30 where your ovaries would be so swolen. You'll be fine. Please don't worry :) you've been so good to yourself lately, you can feel good about that!


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## Breaking Dawn

Ging...the only reason active exercise/yoga it's bad during ivf..is because the ovaries are being stimulated and so there is a chance that bc they are so much larger than normal they can twist - this causes major severe pain!!!!!!

i've had this happen when i was much younger - trust me you do NOT want to know what this feels like.

thanks so much for your support - i'm so exited to continue on with my ivf cycle...


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## melly2

Breaking: Great news! I think we're on the same cycle.

Ging: I started stims yesterday and followed it up with a 7 mile run. I felt good, so figured why not. Also, since it was the first day, I thought that ovaries probably haven't swelled much yet. They told me to limit my exercise and no running or getting the heart rate above 140bpm. I guess I'll be walking the dogs a lot this week. ;-) I'll do slow work on the elliptical trainer and do some hatha yoga; I think that should be okay.

Question for everyone: Went of BCP last week, and I've only had dark spotting since, no AF at all. I started stims yesterday, and I guess it's going as planned. Should I expect a period this week? Should I care? We plan to freeze these, get genetic testing and then implant, so implantation won't be for another 4-6 weeks. Now I'm worried that I should be having a period, but really don't have one.


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## Breaking Dawn

Melly - yes we are onthe same cycle, i started stims yesterday too. Also, i think we will be on the same embryo transfer cycle bc we are doing a FET not fresh transfer (unless embryos will not survive fet)

as for AF question....i'm not sure about bcp protocol or AF....i think if your dr is aware that you went from bcp straight to stims without AF then it should be ok...


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## gingmg

Melly - my clinic said some people bleed some don't, either way is fine.

I am feeling pretty uncomfortable, ovaries feel big and sensitive. My scan today was actually a little uncomfortable and it never has been before. I think EC will be wed, but will find out for sure after tomorrow's scan. I cant believe its so soon!


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## gingmg

How is everyone else?

Breaking, melly, and bbbliss how did you decide to do a FET verses a fresh transfer?

I am getting scared. One minute I feel positive and hopeful and the next I am paralyzed with 'what ifs'.


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## BBbliss

Ging, just try to with it one day at a time, every stage has its special place in the process, it's all gone well so far, it's a good thing and so far nothing to really worry about. The fear is only an anticipation of all things that haven't happened yet. You are doing great! 

To answer your question, I had been on that ivfauthority site and read multiple papers on ivf, I decided to ask a question about my case and the dr. There responded saying if I insisted in using my own eggs I should ask for a FET and it would give me a better chance, so I was ready to ask my clinic but when I set down with the nurse who was giving me my full schedule and protocol it was all already there, before I asked, so it gave me even more confidence in them and I truly believe they are looking out for me giving me a plan that will be appropriate for my situation.


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## Breaking Dawn

Ging..when I had my ivf consult my dr said he prefers fet protocol over fresh, success rates at his clinic are higher. He said it let's your body recover from stims and ER and it is more natural.

He will do a fresh if embryos are not going to make it to freeze and then thaw process


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## melly2

I'm feeling good...suprisingly. I'm surprised that I'm not feeling in cramping or swelling down there yet. Breaking, do you feel anything yet? Ging, did you feel anything by the 3rd day?

If all goes well, we will be doing FET as well, and even shipping our embryos' off to a lab to get genetic testing before transferring.


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## gingmg

I didn't really feel sore till the past day or two. Trigger tonight, collection wed.


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## Briss

gingmg, OMG it's happening! best of luck!! grow eggies grow


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## Breaking Dawn

melly....i feel fine so far!! cd6 appt tomorrow! i think by cd8-10 is when i will start feeling the stims

ging...goodluck hun!!


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## Blythe

Gingmg. Good luck.....thinking of you :flower:


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## BBbliss

Ging I hope you have an easy stress free day today and tomorrow is a huge success collecting all those eggs.


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## gingmg

Thanks ladies!


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## melly2

Ging: Good Luck!!! Very excited for you. 

Started feeling a bit of cramping today during my morning walk with the dogs. Now, it's starting to feel heavy down there, sorta like early PMS. Tomorrow morning I have my first ultrasound, so I'm hoping we got some follies growing.


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## Breaking Dawn

Melly..i had my cd6 scan this morning after 3 days of gonal f. 

I've got 12 follies but all really small. And my cyst is gone!!

Haven't felt any cramping but had an awful headache after my shot last night!


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## gingmg

Breaking- Great news the cyst is gone! 

Melly- Good luck tomorrow. 

It's so fun going to the scans and watching them grow over time!


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## Blythe

i have just received a letter which was copied to my doc from my hospital and it says they are concerned that they will have no or low response from me. My AFC was 18 and FSH 7.2 - perhaps it is simply my age. anyhow it says they will be putting me on 450 iu of gonal f which seems a bit extremein the office he said he had a concern about ohss but on this letter he states the opposite.

i am doing the BCP for 21 days and then going onto buserelin for a while before the gonal f so a long way for me to go yet.

Breaking - excellent news about the cyst - you must be very relieved.

melly - good luck with your first scan


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## gingmg

Blythe- From being on the IUI threads, I know many ladies that were on 300iu for IUIs, so must have been on much higher to stimulate for IVF. I really have no idea how they pick the doses that they do. Unfortunately, you will have no way to know any of this until you are in the middle of it. The good news is that they will do a scan within the first few days, and can always back off or increase as you go. If you are really concerned, I would just call and have them explain why they picked the dose that they did. If you are still uncomfortable, you could always ask for a little bit of a lower dose for the first few days, and increase if you need to. This is almost the hardest part, knowing when to trust and when to question or fight.


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## Briss

Ladies, I am so excited for you! so much is happening on this thread finally, cant wait for those BFPs! I so wish I could join you but hopefully soon.

*Blythe*, I really do not know what to say, 450 iu of gonal f is a lot! what's their problem? your stats are just great, why are they measuring everyone by age, everyone is different. I personally feel very optimistic for you and am sure you will prove them wrong and your ovaries will produce quite a few good quality eggs, well enough for a healthy pregnancy and a baby (or two)

*Breaking*, fantastic news that the cyst is gone! 12 follies is a great number at this stage

*Melly*, cant wait for your update form your first scan! I am visualising lots of healthy follicles there

*gingmg*, best of luck tomorrow, I hope they will collect plenty of good quality mature eggs. definitely get some rest after the procedure. take socks with you (it can be quite cold waiting around before and after wearing that glamorous hospital gown) and maybe take a book to read, I think we stayed for about 3 hours there altogether 

*afm*, since I have nothing interesting TTC related to share, I thought I could update you on my weight loss situation, I am officially half way through to my target weight! Unfortunately, I cant really see it cos my clothes is still quite tight but I am sure last few kg will make all the difference. It's been very slow cos during the week I am sticking to my 800-900 calories but then totally lose it over the weekend and always end up putting on at least half of what I lost during the week.


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## Jazzbird

Gingmg - good luck tmrw - I will be thinking of you! Xxx


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## BBbliss

Blythe, I agree with ging and briss, if it makes you uneasy ask if its possible to start with a smaller dose and maybe go up after a couple of scans. You have good stats, AFC should be a good starting point besides age. 


Afm, I'm so excited right now. We just got our SA back and we went from 4mil to 25 mil!!!! And that morphology problem at zero, now came back at 6% and I got the satisfaction of hearing a "you were right" from DF after the 100000 pils I e made him take. Thanks to this forum and you girls :)


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## gingmg

BBbliss great news!


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## Wish4another1

BBbliss
Can you share the concoction of pills you had the DH take? Mine has same 0% morphology ... please???? Congrats on the good news on the SA!!!!


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## Jazzbird

BBbliss - what great news!!! What are the supplements? Xxx


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## Briss

BBbliss, great news on SA!! morphology is so important for IVF so well done to your DF!

Gingmg, how did it go?


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## BBbliss

Thinking of you this morning ging :)

So here is my "formula" because he refused to take a fertility blend. Btw, his last SA before this one was on November 1st. For three months this is what he took:

Coq10/Lcartinine blend
Larginine 2g
Pycnogenol
Vitamin C 
Tribulus
Omega3
Prenatal 

yes I made him take a liquid prenatal and lied it was for him and her, I also got a liquid C, just to make it less pills because he was really resistant to taking all the pills. So that was for first 3 months, then for the past month we switched to 

fertilaid+count boost 
Larginine
Ubiquonol
Vitamin C
Tribulus

I do believe in fertilaid from other people's experience but I don't think his sperm went from zero to 6% morthology in 4wks from it, the amount of time he was taking it before SA. I did learn sperm takes about 75days to mature from the cellular level so the morphology change was definitely from my first list. 

Here's a link to my order list. These are the specific supplements he took. 

https://www.drvita.com/cart/shopping-cart.jsp?_requestid=35207


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## melly2

bbliss: Wow, that is a serious increase in sperm count! Great news!!

Ging: hope the procedure went well today!

AFM: Had my scan this morning. Follies are looking good and healthy, growing exactly like they expected but not too fast. The count is around 15-20.


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## gingmg

EC went ok. They got 11 out of the 14 that were in there. I woke up in a lot of pain so they gave me extra pain meds. It was only on one side and just above the ovary so I don't even think it had anything to do with the retrevial, I think I had a gas bubble from the anesthesia. Went home and slept for a few hours and feel fine now. We asked if we could change our minds and sign the consent to do emergency ICSI if needed and the nurses seemed so huffy and puffy about it that we just said never mind. So, say a little prayer that at least some of them fertilize.

Melly- that is outstanding!


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## Jazzbird

Ging - sending lots of fertile dust your way. Hope you are feeling better. Those nurses sound like they need a good slap. Honestly! You are the customer after all. 

Xxx


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## Briss

gingmg, well done! 11 eggs is fantastic! I read that they do not like getting more than 15 so your number is just fine. sorry you had pain, try to rest as much as you can so you are in good shape for ET. fingers crossed you wont need ICSI and your beautiful eggs will all fertilise tomorrow. 

Melly, wonderful news!! great egg count so far


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## Blythe

Well done gingmg. That's fabulous they got all those eggs. Sorry you had attitude from the nursing staff. Not impressed!! Hope you manage some rest and recover well


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## Breaking Dawn

Ging...thats fantastic!!! sending positive vibes!

Melly...yay for stims!!

AFM...thanks everyone so glad cyst is gone. am on day 5 of stims tonight. And have u/s on friday to see how follies are doing! 

ER is next week!! 

Melly do you know what day your will be?


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## BBbliss

So many great numbers coming out today!

Ging, I'm saying a prayer right now! 11 is wonderful!

Melly, not bat at ALL those are great numbers. Fingers crossed they all mature together and get collected at the perfect time and number for optimum results! 

Breaking, I looked down at my BCP and have 5 more to take. That's been my count down. Today you are on day 5 and next week will be here before you know it. I'm getting so excited for all of us here :)

Jazzbird, just watching from front row, Blythe will soon be following and Briss will get to join just behind, but not before I'm even done, lol since my FET won't happen till may, aiaiai that's three months and I hope we'll all be celebrating by then :)


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## melly2

My ER will be next week as well. I have another ultrasound on Friday to make sure everything checks out. I had only one follicle that was a bit larger, but all the others were growing together nicely. I think my collection will be most likely Tuesday or Wednesday. This is exciting, we're all on almost the same IVF cycle.


----------



## Blythe

Bbbliss after your bcp are you going straight onto stims?

Ladies - I wondered if any had done ACU when stimming. If so, where had needles been placed? I'm back doing ACU as my back recently went again and it has helped relieve the pain. I booked up 5 sessions so will do up to ER


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## gingmg

Blythe sorry to hear about your back. I haven't gone in a while, but just made an appointment for before and after transfer. I hope it helps ease your back pain and also get your body ready for transfer.


----------



## Breaking Dawn

Day 6 of stims today and I'm feeling so blah! Not myself at all....but no pain..


----------



## gingmg

Breaking-Sorry to hear you aren't feeling all that great. Do some nice things for yourself, pamper yourself a little.

I am SOOOOOOOOOOOOO nervous that nothing is happening in that dish right now. I am kicking myself for not signing that ICSI consent. We didn't like the idea of it, and since we don't have a male factor, we didn't think we needed it. Now, I am reading that my eggs may be harder to penetrate and I see posts on here where no eggs fertilized. I can hardly breathe right now. I wish they would call me soon, but I still have hours to go. I wish I stood my ground yesterday with that nurse and asked for her to get someone that could consent me for ICSI, but when she huffed and puffed about it, we both backed down. URGH!


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## Breaking Dawn

Ging...don't worry...you're right you have no male factor...those eggs will fertilize!

Can't believe the nurse was like that....i would have punched her out. lol

I have no patience for ppl like that...lol


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## melly2

ging: have faith that your eggs will penetrate, you had a good collection. Keeping my fingers crossed for you!!

Breaking: sorry you're feeling bad. I've been feeling pretty good actually...super weird dreams at night though. I have another ultrasound tomorrow morning.


----------



## Breaking Dawn

Melly...me too with the weird dreams...lol

I'm not feeling awful....jusy not myself. so it's ok.

I also have another ultrasound tomorrow...Melly we are on the exact same cycle.

At the moment I'm expecting last day of stims to be wed and ER on friday.


----------



## Blythe

gingmg - nothing is going to happen that you cannot handle. I will be thinking of that dish tonight and sending all the positive wishes i can from the UK to you. :flower:


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## Briss

ging, thinking about you


----------



## BBbliss

Ging, we are all here thinking about you. It's all going to work out great, you are healthy and you payed money for the good stuff, hehe, I'm sure they are super swimmers :) can't wait to hear all the good news. 

Breaking, these are some intense days, it's only normal to not feel like yourself, this is big a big deal :) it's exciting! 

Melly, me too!!!! The really weird dreams! The other day I even dreamed I was pregnant with twins. Last night was my father, who past away 25years ago. 

Blythe, I take my last active pill on Sunday, call then on CD1 and start Stims on CD3, when they do bloods and scan also. I forgot to take it last nigh and took it this morning, I really really hope it doesn't mess things up.


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## gingmg

So no one ever called me with my fertilization results... I have decided to look at it like no news is good news. If nothing was happening in that dish, I am sure someone would have called. And if the embryos needed to be transferred on day 2 (tomorrow), someone would have called. So since I have not heard, I am going to take it that it was a long day for them, they got busy, and my good news could wait until tomorrow.


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## BBbliss

Ging, yes! Lets hope! I would have called them myself knowing how anxious I get, hehe fingers crossed for you!!! I'll praying tonight


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## gingmg

They said they would call between 330-530. I was out to dinner with a friend (a new friend from my mind body group!) and was waiting for them to call, but when they didn't by 6, I assumed they had already left and didn't want to interrupt our dinner. So I decided no news was good news. If I find out otherwise tomorrow, I will be pissed, but as long as it is good news, I will let it go.


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## BBbliss

Ging, that's a good plan :) I'm proud of you. I can't wait till tomorrow is here! You have to tell us as soon as you hear, hehe, we all have so much invested in each others stories that we really care. I really wish and hope you will be crying tears of joy tomorrow. A huge hug and try to get a good night of sleep.


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## Breaking Dawn

Ging.... I Agree...it must be good news.

Make sure you come tell how how the fertilization went...hw many embies and when you will transfer :happydance:


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## Briss

gingmg, I wish I could have your patience! I was calling them every 30 min the day after EC until smb from the lab was able to spare 5 min to talk to me. They are so used to it that they probably do not realise how important these news to us and sometimes just do not bother passing on the news. but you are right if it was bad news that would mean end of the road for this cycle and they would have called you by now (I can tell you that from my unfortunate experience, I received the "bad news" call first thing in the morning the next day after EC while I was still in bed&#8230;) so at least you know you have fertilisation, you just do not how many.


----------



## Breaking Dawn

Hi ladies..

Update from my u/s today...just got back.

So I have 5 follies greater than 10mm (10-12mm). And in total there are 16.

I have no idea if this is good or not...anyone know? 

I'm on CD9...and will take day 7 of stims tonight.


----------



## Briss

Breaking Dawn, are they increasing your dose? you seem to have great 5 follicles there, there might be a few more coming up in the next few days, they need to be over 18 mm before you trigger which is 36 hours before EC so there is still time. tbh, every time I went for a scan I had a different picture, some follicles stopped growing all together. others miraculously appeared. just hang in there


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## gingmg

That's great breaking. You have time for more to catch up. I think I had around 5 on my second scan too. You still have plenty of time, they won't trigger until the biggest three are around 18 for me they waited until they were 19 almost 20 so that a few smaller ones could catch up.


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## gingmg

I have 8 embryos! I can't stop laughing. I love them already.


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## BBbliss

Congratulation ging!!! I just wish I could give you a big hug right now. Eight is amazing! That put a huge smile on my face. Yay!!!!


----------



## Breaking Dawn

Ging!!!!!!!!!!!!! Sooo happy for you..wonderful news :)

When will you have ET?

Thanks for the advice ladies...yes this was only scan 2 after starting stims. i am going in on Monday again!

Briss...if the dr is going to change my dose I will get a call tonight!


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## Briss

Ging, fantastic news!!! So happy for you


----------



## gingmg

Breaking- I am on the schedule tomorrow for a 3 day transfer, but they will call me in the morning and depending on how they look, we will either proceed with transfer or push it back until Monday. I'm hoping for Monday.


----------



## BBbliss

Fingers crossed you get exactly what you want :) and you have nice heathy embryos to freeze too. Will you still transfer two? 

Btw, I forgot to mention I went back to weekly ACU and I'm happy I did. She has me face up and she places them on lower abdomen on both side, also on top of my feet, at the top of my head and arms. I'm not sure what each is for but I feel great every time.


----------



## gingmg

BBbliss- I am glad you have found your way back to acupuncture, it does always feel so nice. 

I think we are still going to do two. We keep going back and forth on it but keep coming back to the two.


----------



## BBbliss

I hope I get to choose one or two but we have also decided to transfer two if we get that lucky :)


----------



## Breaking Dawn

Ging so exciting!!!


----------



## melly2

Ging: OMG! That is great news. That's a lot to choose from. Everything seems to have worked out, that's great!! 

Breaking: Those sound like good numbers as well. You're tracking quite well.

AFM: I had my appointment today; just like Breaking, on the exact same cycle. My left ovary is definitely more healthy. I don't have the total count, because I lost track, but I had a nice cluster that was around 10-12; and then more that were a bit smaller. My biggest one was 13mm, so it sounds like they're all growing as expected. I will have a follow-up appointment on Sunday and then they'll have a better idea on exactly when we'll do trigger and retrieval. I also started taking another shot today (for the next four days), which will prevent me from ovulating.


----------



## melly2

Another Update: just got a call from my doctor. They want to see me tomorrow instead. Everything looks good, but I think they're keeping an eye on me, since I have some follies that are bigger.


----------



## gingmg

Melly- Great news! Good luck. Keep us posted.


----------



## gingmg

The clinic does not seem to agree with transferring 2 and wants us to sign something saying we understand the risk of twins, and with that the risk of premature birth. I think I am going to question this right up until we do it. I keep having to remind myself most twins are healthy, and transferring 2 does not guarantee even one baby. My job is not normal, my job is not normal, my job is not normal.


----------



## Breaking Dawn

Melly...wow that's great. Let us know how your u/s is tomorrow! 

I'm not going back until Monday. I am also taking ovulation suppressor in the mornings. Very small dose. 

Ging.. it is a tough decision to make...do whatever your gut tells you to.

I would rather make my own decisions and handle the outcome then follow dr/nurse when I'm not in agreement.


----------



## BBbliss

Melly that sounds like good progress :)

Ging, your job is NOT normal! And I like what breaking said. Fallow your instincts

Afm, I received the box of meds that was shipped to my house today, holly maracas!!! This better work!


----------



## Breaking Dawn

Bliss...what meds will you be taking. 

So far I'm in lupron (to suppress ovulation) and GonalF to stimulate follie growth.


----------



## BBbliss

I'll be on gonal f 150and menopur 150 at night then I though cetrotide, but just noticed lupron in there too, I'm confused, I guess I didn't see on my protocol, but I'll call the nurse on Monday for clarification.


----------



## Breaking Dawn

BBbliss said:


> I'll be on gonal f 150and menopur 150 at night then I though cetrotide, but just noticed lupron in there too, I'm confused, I guess I didn't see on my protocol, but I'll call the nurse on Monday for clarification.

I have all the same meds except menopur and this is my protocol...

Lupron in AM ...started 1 week before AF
Cd3: started 300 gonal f in PM and continue with lupron in AM but half the dose.

Then at some point closer to ER I will start repronex with the gonalF....and add cetrotide to stop ovulation. Then when I'm ready for retrieval, stop all meds take the trigger....and start antibiotics.


----------



## Jazzbird

Ging FANTASTIC news! Wow 8!!! Thinking of you and hoping you are spoilt of choice on transfer.

Xxx

Hugs to everyone else! This is all so exciting to read everyone's progress!


----------



## Briss

Breaking Dawn, what's repronex for?


----------



## Breaking Dawn

Briss said:


> Breaking Dawn, what's repronex for?

Develop the follie....give a last boost before ER.


----------



## BBbliss

Breaking, thank you, I still don't know where they'll have me do the lupron. Af is about 5 days away, but I don't see it on my calendar.


----------



## gingmg

Ladies please send sticky positive vibes my way today. Looks like we won't make a day 5 transfer. Day 3 it is. FX!


----------



## BBbliss

Good luck ging! Everything will work out fine. :)


----------



## melly2

Good luck, Ging! Thinking of you!

AFM: Another ultrasound today. I have 20 follies that over 10, and 18 that were around 13mm. They are all growing in unison, so the doctor was very pleased with that. No change to my protocol.I start the injections to stop ovulation yesterday. I will have another ultrasound Monday morning and it's looking like I will trigger on Tuesday, retrieval on Wednesday. 

Looks like everyone is progressing very nicely. So excited for everyone!


----------



## Blythe

Gingmg. Thinking of you and cannot believe you are getting ready for et already. It seems only a few days ago you started this process. :flower:


----------



## Briss

Good luck ging! thinking of you!

melly, amazing number of follicles! things are moving really well.

Breaking Dawn, thanks. interestingly I cant remember taking repronex. it was only stims and ovulation suppressor. something to note for next time.


----------



## BBbliss

Melly those are amazing numbers! Do they expect all to develop to 18-20? When do they consider over stimulation? If you get the 18 larger ones that's already awesome! 

Afm, I emailed the nurse and she said I do nothing until my scan and then she'll tell me everything I need to know.


----------



## gingmg

Melly- that's great!!!!"

I'm home, and technically pregnant with twins!


----------



## melly2

Yay! Ging! Praying for them to stick!!!

bbliss, I'm guess we'll end up getting between 15-20, when it's all said and done. I think overstimulation takes considerably more than that, and my follies aren't too big yet either, so everything appears to be normal. It's looking like retrieval may be on Tuesday for me at this point.


----------



## BBbliss

Ging, I'm so happy for you! Now just relax momma :)

Melly. Sounds like a dream plan to me :) I meant to say if they all develop, all 38 of them.


----------



## Briss

gingmg, congratulations on being PUPO!! amazing feeling, isn't! did they manage to freeze any or are they waiting until days 5?


----------



## Breaking Dawn

Ging - soo exciting!!!! hope those embies get all snuggly in there :)

Bliss - if you have not started lupron yet...then when you start stimming they will add it on to suppress ovulation....or at least i think.

Briss - yes so many different types of protocols....

Melly - wow 18-20 follies that's awesome!!!


----------



## gingmg

Briss- There are two they are watching and if they look okay at day 5 we can freeze them. From the beginning, (without ICSI) they said to expect about half to fertilize (we were over half there) and then expect about half of those to make it. Out of the 8, this morning we had four. At first I was sad we were doing a day three transfer because I thought our best chances would be on day 5, but after reviewing everything with the doctor we found out in order to do a day 5 transfer we needed 3 embryos of a certain grade in order to wait and we had 2. So that made me feel better about why we went today, it had nothing to do with the quality of them, just the number. The other two are okay, but not as sturdy as the ones on board, so they will decide on day 5 if we can freeze or not. My doctor said to hope to get one good enough to freeze, so I feel like we are on track with what they expected with everything. If we have nothing to freeze, oh well, I would do it all over again to feel exactly the way I do today! Yes, I do feel absolutely amazing! Stick baby(ies) stick!


----------



## Briss

gingmg, that's great i was actually told in my clinic that the sooner you get your embries inside your uterus the better they seem to have better chances to survive and stick inside you rather than in the lab so fingers crossed they are getting comfortable in there. I am so happy you decided to go for two :)


----------



## melly2

Update: Scan today showed lots of eggs, but need to wait another day. So, I will most likely do the trigger shot tomorrow (Tuesday) night, and then retrieval will be on Thursday. I'm feeling very bloated today and loss of appetite. 

Ging: how are you feeling? Any pg symptoms yet?
Breaking: How are you progressing?


----------



## gingmg

Melly- great progress!!! Its getting soooooo close!

The progesterone mimicks early pregnancy symptoms, so I know from the medicated iui s not to pay attention to any symptoms. I am just soooooooo scared, I was in tears yesterday. Trying to stay grounded, yoga usually helps with that, but I am too scared to go. Maybe in another day or two.


----------



## Blythe

gingmg - thinking of you. Sorry you were so upset. Are you taking time off work? 

I'm sure yoga would be fine if your teacher is aware of what stage you are at so she can advise you which poses to avoid. Are you meditating? I brought an IVF meditation cd today so will upload that when it comes and try and listen every other day throughout down reg and maybe daily when stimming.


----------



## Breaking Dawn

Melly..excited for your ER...how r u feeling? bloated?

Ging...sending you sticky vibes :)

AFM...u/s this morning and I've got around 7 follies that are greater than 12mm. And there are a bunch of other smaller ones.

I go back in on Wednesday and my expected ER day is Friday or Saturday. 

Kinda disappointed that don't have more follies.


----------



## melly2

Ging: Stay positive and try some meditation. I think yoga should be fine for now, and would help distract you a bit! Hoping for the best little sticky!! This two week wait is the worse...I can imagine it is impossible to stay focused. 

Breaking: Those are good numbers, the smaller one will start growing, too. I have a two or three that are about 17mm, and the rest around 12-14mm. I'm feeling sooooooo bloated today. I'm not even hungry, which is weird for me, because I'm always hungry in the morning when I wake up.


----------



## Breaking Dawn

Melly...I'm so excited to get this going :)

Yes I'm hoping the smaller ones start to grow and ive got at least 10 follies. 

Do you know details about your ET? 

Also...when they say they will do 3day ET do they count ER as day 1?


----------



## Briss

gingmg, I know it's hard but try to stay positive, do not allow yourself to be upset, it can help implantation (no scientific explanation for that but quite a few IVF specialists were observing this phenomenon in their experience with IVF patients). There is life inside of you and that all that matters. I do not think there is much you can do but feeling happy and at peace is one thing that can help. watch something that makes you smile. I spent 4 days after ET at home not doing anything just watching "feel good" programmes and talking to my embryo&#8230; 

Breaking Dawn, you have a very healthy number of follicles, well done! 

melly, do mention feeling bloated to your doc cos it could be an early sign of overstimulation. I am sure it's all fine but best to let them know so they take better care of you.


----------



## Blythe

Briss - i miss you!

how is the diet going? i feel terribly fat and old at the moment..dare i sayunattractive :( I need some words of inspiration..:flower:


----------



## melly2

Briss: I did mention it to them. They said that's normal for someone my size (I'm petite) so I will fill it more. So...yay...this will be a fun next 48 hours.


----------



## gingmg

Thanks ladies for your support and encouragement. 

Breaking- you are doing great! More will come out!! And if not, I am sure they are the most beautiful follies ever and you don't need any more than those 7. The number of follies they get is no correlation to success, don't forget that.

Melly- you will start to feel better the day after EC, I noticed a huge difference once they were out.

Blythe good for you doing a meditation CD!


----------



## Briss

Blythe, I miss you too! my diet is actually going well, I have only 2 kg to go which is manageable. Today I only consumed 400 calories (basically just latte, chicken and some veggies and a tiny bit of chocolate; just to put it in perspective for you my yesterday's menu consisted of 2 pain of chocolat, 1 chocolate éclair, 2 lattes, 2 packets of crisps and lots of chocolate and a bit of salad&#8230;) so today I am compensating for the weekend. Somehow even though I lost 4 kg it does not show and clothes is still tight. also, I had to take antibiotics for a week and it made me terribly constipated (maybe that's why I still look "curvy")

to tell you the truth I'd much rather be starting my 3rd IVf than losing weight and going to NZ (who knows how many IVFs I will have to go through, considering that I need 3-4 months to recover after each stim cycle and I am almost 38 I have about 9-11 attempts left) I am feeling very defeated and almost depressed, and even NZ does not take my mind off the simple fact that I have no children. Dh was drinking a lot last week and we had a huge argument, I stormed out in the middle of the night thinking I am never coming back and do not care about NZ or anything. things got a bit better since than and Dh is trying.

we have a long standing pan-cakes tradition with a couple of my good friends, we meet first week of March for delicious pan-cakes and general life catch-up. they both have children now and one has a new born which she was going to bring alone. After what happened to me last time I visited a friend with a new born I had to find an accuse not to go. Broke the tradition for the first time in quite a few years&#8230; 

another friend of mine apparently had a baby girl 8 months ago. I did not know cos I stopped talking to her once she got pregnant. I am losing friends. so sad. but unfortunately keeping in touch with friends with children is just the saddest thing ever, so traumatic. I am just not strong enough for that every meeting is like sprinkling salt into an open wound 

sorry I know I was supposed to be saying something inspiring&#8230; you are going through IVf which is quite hard core and you are investing a lot in it, the most important thing is your health and the quality of your eggs so I'd try and eat healthy as far as possible. I'd leave dieting until you stop breast feeding your second child :)


----------



## BBbliss

Ging, I hope you are feeling better, I think it's perfectly normal to be feeling this emotional... This whole thing IS a big deal! Maybe your partner can pamper you a bit for the next couple of night ;) take advantage of it, you are doing a lot for both of you and you deserve it. 

Blythe, I'm so glad you got that meditation CD it will make you more relaxed and prepared for the next few weeks. I have a collection of a 21 day healing meditation program that I'm going to start today. 

Melly, I'm quite petite too and I also feel I'm going to get very bloated, haha, I hope so, just as long as I don't get OS but at my age I don't even know if its possible. 

Breaking, I'd be very comfortable with 7, actually. You'll probably and up with more then that, it's only Monday and you may go till Saturday don't forget a lot can change. 

Briss, I'd be soooo happy if I had a trip to go on just before my IVF, I begged DF for us to go on one but we couldn't afford both. Just think if your next IVF works you'll be stuck with a baby that will become a toddler and that's at least 3 years of no ME time for you, also you can ad the being preg time I wouldn't take a long trip anywhere. Enjoy!!! This could be your last chance for a while, make the most of it, besides you will come back with a renewed glow and maybe that will be just what you need for your next successful try.


----------



## melly2

Briss: Why do you have to wait so long between stims?

In terms of friends, I actually have the opposite problem. All our couples friends are in their 30s and 40s and are childless by choice. We are NOT telling them anything! If I do get pregnant I'm seriously dreading telling them, just because I'm afraid that they'll abandon us as friends. We all go out for drinks together, take trips together, BBQs, and a child will change that chemistry in a major way. Aside from my childhood best friend (who lives far from me and does have a toddler), you ladies are the only ones that know we're going through IVF.


----------



## Blythe

Lovely to hear from you. I am inspired. I will reply later :flower:


----------



## melly2

Hope everyone is doing well. I had another appointment this morning, I have 23 follies that are primed for the pickin'. Depending on my blood work, which we'll know in a couple hours, we will do the trigger shot tonight, and then retrieval will be on Thursday! Wow! Can't believe it's almost here.

Ging: How are you feeling?

Briss: Getting excited for NZ?

Breaking: How you doing?

Blythe: You'll be starting your stims soon, right?


----------



## BBbliss

Wow, melly that's really great progress, you must be so excited! It does feel like it went so fast just the other day you were thinking about it 

I start Stims on Saturday I think. Just waiting for AF now and getting a little nervous


----------



## gingmg

Wow melly, its almost here!!

BBbliss- you are going to do great!


----------



## Breaking Dawn

Melly...so excited for you!!

Ging...how r u feeling? 

Afm...u/s tomorrow and I'm expecting to find out if it's friday ER or Saturday. 
Got a call yesterday and Dr reduced my gonal f..so as of yesterday I'm on a slightly lower dose. 

As for friends....all my friends are actively ttc, pregnant, just had a baby...have 2-3 babies and are done ttc....or do not talk about it (just one person and i think she is having issues but avoids ttc talk like the plague).

So ya it's not to easy being the one that it's not happening for and everyone else is ttc..then bfp...then baby...then repeat.


----------



## Blythe

Melly - wowzers - thats loads. All the very best with your ER - very exciting :)

BBBliss - good luck with first day of stimms and be sure to report back on any side effects&#8230;although I'm sure you will sail through it :flower:

Briss - 2kg is nothing - well done you have done marvellously:thumb up: I feel quite good today as i got up and made a green juice - loads of spinach, celery, 1 x apple and a few carrots - i had porridge for breakfast and the juice for lunch. although i had a few liquorice boiled sweets in between but only 3/4. I feel so much better feeling a little hungry than stuffed so that is what i will try to stick to this week. I have also decided to walk to work once a week - its over 7 miles so quite a jaunt but worth it for how i will feel. This is something i can fit into my daily routine and listen to music too so really clear the cobwebs out. The last few weeks i have been eating too much and bit all my nails off so feel pissed off with myself - time to regain some control!

I feel so stagnant - the last few years of obsessive TTC has left me feeling decidedly vacant. i too have lost friends but those who remain i have a deeper bond with. Briss - this is all about survival and you must do whatever you need to do to move forward. certain friends will be there when you come through the other side - if they aren't - f**k em. You *will* come out the other side Briss :flower:

i ordered some orange knickers from a lady off ebay because orange is the colour of fertility [i only found this out yesterday - needless to say i have purchased a number of orange things since] - anyhow i just got home from work and the woman sent 2 orange and 1 bright green pair. She left a note saying she was very sorry but the other orange pair had a black mark on them so was it ok to take the green instead. No it is most certainly not ok!!!! I have just sent a very sternly worded email and expect a refund imminently


----------



## Blythe

i meant to say 2 kg is nothing in terms of what is left to loose rather than what you have lost :)


----------



## gingmg

Breaking- So happy that you are getting so close too!

My best friend has two children (that she conceived on the first try each time) but other than that, my friends are just starting to get married or just starting to TTC. Work is a whole different story- it feels like all 150 nurses I work with are expecting- ok just a handful, but every few months there is another announcement. Out of our friends that are just starting TTC, I am so scared I won't take it well should they fall before me.

I am doing ok. Progesterone is a mind f#*k!!!! Time feels like it is standing still, don't know how I am going to make it until next thurs. I am trying to balance being hopeful and positive with possibly having to do this again. I need to start doing yoga again.


----------



## gingmg

Blythe & Briss- :flower:


----------



## Briss

re orange https://thebarrenyears.wordpress.com/2012/02/04/fertile-colours/ actually you may want to re-consider returning the green pair &#8211; "Apparently Celtic myths mark green as for fertility and thus Celtic wedding dresses were green"&#8230; who would have thought!

more on colours https://www.sailorastera.com/articles/3.html


----------



## Blythe

thats fab - i will keep them. i hope that illuminous dayglo rave green will cut it.

melly - i meant to say i am still some way from stimming. i finish the CP on day 21 when i then start injecting buserelin for another 20 days. I will then go in for a scan and they will ensure i am down regged - i bloody well hope i will be at that point.

i then start stimming with 450iu gonal f for 10 days and then go in for another scan - no scans before CD10.

this was a bit shocking for me and quite frankly not very reassuring. I am self funding this cycle but doing it with an NHS clinic hence the structure - i am down regging for years so they can fit me in when it suits them and lack of scans is simply a cost saving measure on their part. I am concerned as i will be on a very high dose of gonal f and will not be scanned until CD10. Had i known all this beforehand i would have gone with another clinic - almost certainly this would have been CREATE. Nonetheless, the money has been paid and i must focus on the positives - to be honest i believe so much of this is down to pure luck that I'm not going to get too disheartened by it all.

anyhow i won't be doing the ER stuff [fingers crossed i get to that stage] until the beginning of April. 

i must confess i am not liking being on the pill again - i have had loads of spots and felt very blue - i had to make a list last night of my friends because i could hardly remember them - i had to write them down to simply remind myself i have some left!


----------



## smurfy

Hi Blythe that is poor that didnt explain this too you when you started especially as your are funding it yourself. We have our consultant appointment on 2nd April now that we have choosen clinic and had the key tests planned over the next few weeks, they will run through the schedule & approach before we sign and commit to IVF. We are planning holiday for first 2 weeks in May, so hoping I can be on the pill or down reg for that stage, i ideally want to do IVF end of May early June as work is much easier as i work in finance and qtr end is a nightmare - good luck all


----------



## Briss

Blythe, any chance you can pay extra to have an additional scan before CD10? I mean it should be OK considering you ovulate after CD13 most cycles anyway but it would really help in case you need to reduce your dose. I am sure they are thinking it's not an issue considering our age group but frankly I am outraged. it's a very high dose to be on for 10 days with no supervision. you can develop a cyst or something, btw easily done on stims. I have heard that Guy's are the same, they save on scans and usually it's working out fine particularly on long protocols but you really do not want to be worrying about it so if possible to beg them to include a scan I think it would help immensely


----------



## Blythe

I will definitely push for an extra scan before cd10 as I don't think I will be able to stop stressing if I don't get one. I would not be so concerned if I was not on the high dose.


----------



## melly2

Blythe: I would definitely push for another scan, if you can. 

AFM: Just heard back from the RE, I am confirmed to trigger tonight and collect Thursday morning. Here we go!


----------



## Breaking Dawn

Eeek..Melly. It's happening...yay!

Pls let us know how your trigger shot goes....and of course we want an ER update.

I will be checking in tomorrow..

If I'm ready I will trigger tmrw night and ER friday


----------



## BBbliss

So much happening this week! How exciting! 

Good luck Melly and breaking :)

Blythe I didn't like being on the pill either, my boobs are sore and larger, I had spotting and cramps... And worse of all no libido. I'm glad it's over. I think we are probably going to be doing ET around the same time, I think I'll be mid May. I hope by then we'll have lots of bfp on this page. 

Also, about the color orange. It's the color of the sacral chakra, one of the functions of the sacral chakra is the ovaries, hormone balance and fertility. You can wear orange, place your hands below your naval and imagine the color orange while you meditate or you can wear an orange stone or Crystal to bring energy and balance to your sacral chakra. 



As far as friends for me I don't have ANY friends with babies or small children. My friends have teens or no kids, but every since I started TTC, as much as it may sound unreal, SEVEN of my cousins have gotten pregnant including my sister, all boys! Two just had their babies and five are pregnant. They are all in their 30's I'm the oldest grandchild. It will be a lot of fun to join them if I get my wish my baby will have lots of cousins to play with :)


----------



## BBbliss

How are you ging? What day are you on now?


----------



## gingmg

BBbliss- I am 3dp3dt. Was teary earlier again, but went to yoga and feeling better now. Had cramps all day, this progesterone and estrogen are serious mind f**ks! I forgot how much I hate these meds. Of coarse I want to think its implantation cramping, but I had the same feelings with the medicated iui cycles. Time is standing still.


----------



## BBbliss

Hang in there ging, soon! I thought about you today, I joined a gym that has every kind of yoga classes and I went on my first yin/restorative class and it was great! I remembered you were the one who told me. It is amazing! Just what I need to prepare for this process, so I can understand how your class must have made you more balanced and centered today. I'm glad you went. Hang in there girl! I'm thinking of you :)


----------



## Briss

*melly*, All the very best with your EC on Thursday! I just think I need to give my body enough time to recover between stim cycles, they do screw up your cycle for it's different for everyone, from my unfortunate experience stim meds could also affect egg quality so ideally I'd need at least 3 months to grow fresh eggs

*BBbliss*, Saturday is very close, once you start stimming the time will go by so quick. 

*Breaking Dawn*, good luck with your trigger tonight and EC! I think it's a good sign that they reduced your dose, probably means that the eggs were almost ready for picking. How exciting!

*gingmg*, I hated progesterone! It made me felt pregnant even before ET I also had AF like cramps but implantation cramps are different and that did not happen until about 10 DPO. I think it's all about keeping calm and positive at the moment and trying to let go completely (I know how hard this is but this is the only time where I think it really matters)

*Blythe*, I feel I lost 2012-2013 completely to TTC, cant remember a thing about these last two years but TTC and heartache and almost constant misery. they went by so quick, cos I live in 2 week slots. Looking back I should have started IVF earlier but other than that not sure what else I could have done. I cant wait to come out the other side, so exhausted. 

re weight, I reached some kind of plateau, my weight loss stopped and just does not move any further, very demotivating but I will keep trying still have a couple of crucially important trousers that do not fit

re friends, I feel really bad, my friends bought into my made up excuse and said they would postpone our pan cakes reunion until I can join them. Good friends, I feel like a monster but there is no way I can tell them the true reason, no one can understand how seeing you little baby can cause somebody to suffer this much


----------



## melly2

Breaking: Super excited for you, it sounds like you'll be right behind me.

Ging: Sounds like you're progressing! Very promising. I'm very much dreading the progesterone. 

AFM: Trigger shot last night, had my positive preggo test this morning. The doctor asked me to take a test to ensure that I got my HCG dosage. Now, it's just a matter of waiting until tomorrow morning. They will know at that time how many are collected. My boobs are starting to kill me and I'm feeling very plump. Nothing painful, just more irritating than anything.


----------



## Breaking Dawn

Melly...great for the trigger. what time is your ER tomorrow? 

AFM...had an u/s and b/w today and there are 8-10 leading follies...one is at 20mm.

However I'm not quite ready for friday...so ER tentative Sat/Sun.

I just got a call and have to decrease my stims again tonight...so definitely getting close!


----------



## Blythe

Breaking. How many days have you stimming?


----------



## gingmg

Good luck tomorrow melly! 

Breaking- sooooo close!


----------



## Breaking Dawn

Blythe...today is CD14 and stim day 12. 

I kinda feel like I don't have a lot of follies...compared to others that I see on here that have ~15 by now. 

Ging ...hope you are feeling well...tww is tough!


----------



## gingmg

Breaking- the number of follies has nothing to do with the outcome! I know its hard not to compare, but you really have had a great response. Seriously! You have plenty to choose from, you have a good number in there!!


----------



## BBbliss

Breaking this is a safe good number, sometimes a smaller amount has healthier eggs. I'll be happy with 10!

Good luck melly! Big day tomorrow 

Ging, I hope you are well and relaxed today

Briss and Blythe you girls are next!

Afm AF arrived today I go in for scan tomorrow and start stim FRIDAY!!! This is it! It's here now.


----------



## gingmg

Yay bbliss!!


----------



## Briss

AF got me today as expected, no surprises, no miracles... my next ovulation seems to be happening while we will be on a plane to NZ... that's going to be interesting, I do not mind BD on a plane, just not sure how to perform legs up the wall thing for 30 min :)


----------



## Breaking Dawn

Bliss, Ging thanks for the encouragement! 

Bliss. ..yay tome to get this party started!!

Briss...LOL @ legs up in the plane. 

Cannot wait to go and put some super comfy clothes on. These last few days are the hardest. I'm super bloated! Pants don't button up...lol


----------



## gingmg

Briss- sorry about AF. But O on a plane to a dream destination, yes please!!


----------



## melly2

Briss: It's an overnight flight, so you'll be amazed what you can pull off while everyone is asleep. Hah!

Breaking: I'm with you! My boobs are KILLING me today. I think the trigger shot didn't help matters either. I definitely noticed the bloat these last few days. Get these eggies out.


----------



## gingmg

Melly will be thinking of you. Good luck! You'll do great!


----------



## BBbliss

Thank you girls!

Briss, LOL


----------



## Breaking Dawn

Melly...how did it go?!

I had another u/s and b/w today. Looks like I'm very close so I was given hcg trigger and superfact shot to bring home. 

I am waiting for the nurse to call me with the dr instructions. If he thinks I'm ready to go then trigger tonight and ER sat.


----------



## Blythe

Breaking Dawn - very exciting - hope you are not feeling too uncomfortable.how bad is the bloat factor? i may have to invest in something stretchy as my current wardrobe is tight due to ongoing issues with chocolate.

Briss - so sorry that AF is here again - miracles do happen and i wish they would happen to you :flower:


----------



## melly2

Hi All,

Had my retrieval this morning, got home and slept for the past two hours. It went quite well. They retrieved 21 eggs. There were two more they were trying to get, but they were too close to blood vessels, so they thought 21 was plenty. I'm not bleeding and have very mild cramping, which is good. I will be on progesterone shot for the next few days just in case we do need to do a 5 day fresh transfer, however, we are preparing the embryos to be shipped off for ccs testing, which will take a couple of weeks. 

Breaking: Good luck, it will go great!


----------



## gingmg

Great news melly , keep us posted!

Breaking- yay!


----------



## Breaking Dawn

Blythe...i notice that it gets worse by the end of day...so most the day I'm ok in my clothes. but am glad to get home and change! 

Melly...yay! that's awesome so excited for you. Can't wait to hear your report!

And I've got the call...ER on sat morning. I take hcg and superfact tonight! Eeeek!


----------



## melly2

I was a bit concerned that this was too many, but I don't appear to be suffering OHSS. Anxious to see how these grow; it all comes down to quality. 
Breaking: is your retrieval on Saturday?


----------



## Briss

melly, well done! 21 eggs!! this is amazing! fingers crossed for lots of healthy embryos


----------



## Breaking Dawn

Melly..yes my retrieval is say. Nurse called me earlier and I'm to trigger tonight and take superfact. 

So glad to hear you did not get ohss...one thing I'm worried about.

Did you do anything to avoid it?

I've got some gatorade to drink to help.


----------



## gingmg

Yes drink lots of Gatorade and eat lots of protein. You are still at risk of ohhs for many more days.


----------



## melly2

Ging: Good luck. I've really kept with my normal routine, even trying to workout at least 45 minutes a day, though nothing too hard. They've been monitoring my estrogen closely, so I've been good thus far.


----------



## BBbliss

Melly, that's great! Big day for you. I'm glad it went well and no OHSS, I confess I have that fear too. Please, report back as soon as you hear anything :)

Breaking, good luck!!!!

Ging, how are you feeling? I didn't know about the Gatorade and protein, thank you for that!

I had my scan today and my AFC is 13 and I start tomorrow, gonalf morning and menapur at night. I did ask about my lupron and they said they may use it to trigger, it will depend on my progress, so I may not even need it. 

It was such a great day, I love my clinic, i really feel the universe has conspired and brought me there, as I'm leaving the office they gave my a gift and had me open it. It was a glass with the words "I'm fertile" printed on the inside and she said drink your water when you take your meds from it, and she started to tell me about the Japanese scientist who did these experiments on the power of words over water molecules, and I said "The hidden messages in water"? I have that book! 
If you girls have never heard of it please look it up on YouTube It's fascinating...I'm so much more at ease now that I know I have a team behind me that believe in the same things I do. Before we walked out my doctor says to my DF "just make her happy... Happy wives make good eggs" haha... I like that :)


----------



## gingmg

Symptoms for OHHS start to show up 4-5 days after egg harvesting ( although it can happen right away, not always)so keep drinking sport drinks and eating lots of protein, you had a lot of eggs. I'm sure it will all be fine, but you are not out of the woods yet. My bloating had gone down and now today it seems to be up again as with my weight, but I don't feel short of breath and have been peeing fine, so I think its OK. I got more Gatorade to drink at work tonight just in case it is a mild OHHS.


BBbliss- I am so glad you have such a great relationship with your clinic. I love the gift they gave you, so sweet and so thoughtful! I am so excited to follow everyone's journey. 

I have a feeling I will be joining you all again. I just don't have a good feeling. I am trying to stay positive and I know its early, but its hard. One minute I am Miss Sunshine talking to my embryos, next I am paralyzed with fear and crying. This is a loooonnnnnngggggggg two weeks and I still have 7 days to go.


----------



## Briss

BBbliss, great news on the AFC! well done. and what a wonderful clinic! that idea with the glass is just fantastic, maybe my IVF was a failure cos I did not like the clinic? people were wonderful and very supportive but the second cycle I just felt annoyed cos everything was going wrong and I felt they were making mistake after mistake. re talking to water, my mum always says if I had a nightmare I should say it to the running water as soon as I wake up and it will not come true. 

gingmg, although I only had one egg I was still slightly bloated after ET but ladies were sharing their pictures and those who had many eggs collected looked seriously 5-6 months pregnant. TWW after ET is the hardest thing, and unfortunately symptom spotting just does not work, make a deal with yourself that you will feel happy and positive no matter what until your beta test. My strategy was to test everyday after about 5-6 DPO I just wanted to gradually come to turns with a bfn. it would have been easier for me but obviously it worked out quite differently. anything can happen you just cant predict the outcome, your beta test is the only way to know for sure. I really like it that women came up with the idea of being PUPO, that's what you are &#8211; pregnant! and consider yourself as such until you get your beta confirmation.


----------



## melly2

Bbliss: What an awesome clinic! Yes, I agree that clinic makes a huge difference. I'm so happy we switched clinics for this procedure, because I've been much happier with this clinic.

Breaking: good luck tomorrow! I'll be thinking about you.

I'm back at work today and took my dreaded progesterone shot this morning. We're doing in case we do have to end up doing a fresh transfer. I will hear from the embryologist today about the progress. I'm feeling okay....but a little wonky. Slight cramping, and bloated, but I have been peeing a lot. I woke up three times last night to use the restroom, which normally I wouldn't wake up at all, so that's good. I am feeling slightly light headed now, but I'm not sure if it's because I took a bunch of meds this morning (progesterone, doxy, and medrol). I'll go eat a banana from the company kitchen and hope that helps a bit.


----------



## BBbliss

Briss, I love what your mum says, that's so sweet! I wish I had known that years ago. Here's a link from the movie "what the bleep do we know" https://youtu.be/zpnlCo5APrE

Water is in all living things :)

Ging, don't loose hope yet, it's too soon, I think the fear you feel is only a combination of feeling vulnerable and a collection of all your history on your Ttc journey what if the tears can be transformed in tears of relief, I think you need to do something nice for yourself like a massage or a long meditation and nap to spa music. Hang in there ging

Btw, I'm going to be like briss, testing every chance I can :)


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## melly2

Ging: Agree with Bbliss, don't give up hope...praying for a sticky for you!

Briss: Getting on the scale has been the most demoralizing thing to do. I can feel my belly, and my boobs, swell like crazy. I'm wearing baggy clothes today at work just to disguise the look. I stopped looking at myself in the mirror. I showed my husband my big belly, and his response, "Oh my God...Wow...weird!". Hah...I guess I should have expected that response.


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## Breaking Dawn

Morning ladies!

Took my trigger last night along with suprefact.

ER tomorrow..need to arrive at 9am...Eeek!


----------



## melly2

Breaking: Yippee!! So excited for you!


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## melly2

Just got off the phone with the embryologist. 21 eggs collected, 19 mature, and 16 actually fertilized. So I have 16 babies now. ;-)

I made a comment to the embryologists that I was keeping her really busy, and she then told me that she had a women today with a retrieval that had 50 eggs! Yikes!! Talk about bloat and pain...I'm going to stop filling sorry for myself now.


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## Breaking Dawn

Melly that is awesome....16 embies yayyy!

Omg 50?!?!?!! That is crazy!


----------



## BBbliss

Breaking I 'll be thinking of you tomorrow morning, good luck!

Melly, that's awesome! I hope you have lost of options after the generic screening, my RE said it raises your chances of pregnancy to as much as 70%


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## gingmg

Melly- This is great news!!!!!! I am so happy for you.

Breaking- Good luck tomorrow, you will do great!


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## gingmg

was trying to share a link, but twice now it isn't working oh well


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## BBbliss

Breaking, I hope it all went well and you are resting and having a beautiful day. Let us know how you are. :)


----------



## gingmg

Breaking- thinking of you.


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## Breaking Dawn

Hi ladies....

Been resting all day after ER this morning.

Didnt feel too much as I was drugged up....but am bit sore and tender now.

Dr confirmed we got 15 eggs....will get fertilization report tomorrow,


----------



## BBbliss

Breaking, that's exciting! 15 is a perfect number I can't wait to hear the report tomorrow. I hope you have a good night of sleep after everything for these past couple of weeks, you Deserve it!


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## gingmg

Breaking this is FANTASTIC news, and you were worried.... Get some rest and keep us posted.


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## Breaking Dawn

Bliss, Ging.....

Thank you so much!

Feeling rested but still tired....feeling kinda achy and sore and bleeding slight so have a liner on.

Was happy to hear we got 15. Last u/s showed 10 follies.

I'm just hoping that they are all mature and fertilize well.


----------



## Blythe

Breaking - that is really wonderful. :flower:

a quick question for you ladies taking COQ10 - are you taking the ubiqinol form?


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## gingmg

Blythe for the longest time I wasn't taking it in the ubiquinol form, but a few months ago I started to.


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## Breaking Dawn

Blythe...thx hun. no I'm not taking coq10.


Waiting for the embryo call..Fx!


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## BBbliss

I take obiquinol, we both do


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## Breaking Dawn

Embryologist called...

Out of 15 eggs 14 were mature....and out of those 14 eggs...13 have fertilized !!

I am so relieved....we are unexplained and I was worried about eggs and sperm.

Now I'm praying they grow to 5 day ..and then they will be frozen.

We are doing a FET bc my estrogen levels are too high.


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## Blythe

That is amazing. What a relief......great news breaking. :flower:


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## melly2

Breaking: Yay! This is great news. That is more than enough, I know they will survive to day 5; especially with those numbers! You will start feeling much better over the next day or two, maybe a bit bloated today though.

I used ubiquinol form of C0Q10; both my husband and I. We noticed a huge difference in his motility percentage when we started using that.

AFM: Just heard from embryologist. All 16 are still thriving on day 3. Hopefully many will make it to day 5 so we can do the freeze. They have me on progesterone oil shots just in case they need to do a fresh transfer. OMG...it has made me super constipated. Ugh! I have taken numerous colace, milk of magnesium, suppository, ate fruit; finally two days later I had a movement. TMI, I know. It wasn't until I looked it up on the web that I found out it caused such severe constipation. Fortunately, I can stop taking it , for now, since I will make it to freeze. Anyone else have this problem with progesterone oil?


----------



## gingmg

melly and breaking- great news! 

Yes the progesterone makes me constipated, but I am taking the suppositories not shots.


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## BBbliss

Breaking and melly what a great feeling for both of you, what a great progress!
So happy for you girls :)

How are you ging? Can you test yet?


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## Briss

melly, fantastic result! well done! hoping the genetic testing will go well and you will have lots of healthy embryos for transfer. 

Breaking Dawn, wonderful news! 13 embryos!!! fingers crossed they will develop perfectly for day 5

Blythe, I take the old form I think it's called obiquinone, it's cheaper and as far as I understand if you take it with vitamin E the absorption is the same as the more expensive one. I started taking 400 daily although I do not think I will brother with any vitamins in NZ

gingmg, how are you feeling? 

afm, depressed about my weight, I was doing so well and last week I was sticking to 800 calories but then as usual overate (1,200-1,300) on weekend and somehow I ended up putting more weight then losing so I am back to where I was 2 weeks ago. How did that happen?? my only hope is that this can be the result of constipation (still cant properly recover after antibiotics) but I did suspect something was wrong where I was trying my summer clothes and at least half did not fit. Just one week left before the trip I do not think I will be able to lose enough to wear my slim clothes&#8230; it's not important in the scheme of things but considering I have very little to feel good about anyway, it would have been nice to at least feel good about my body. oh well

my clinic still did not send me a letter with the appointment date, a friend of mine applied 2 weeks after me and already got it. either they lost mine or they do not want to take me on. I am not surprised. looking at how many eggs everyone is able to produce I am obviously a complete failure cos I could barely master 3 follicles &#8230; cant help feeling what's the point


----------



## gingmg

Briss - you were on the same doses that I was for my IUIs!!! and I only had 2-3 on those cycles, which was the goal. I know they upped your dose after awhile but at that point its hard to play catch up versus being on the correct dose from the beginning. You have no idea how you would respond to a full round of stims versus low dose stims!

I'm OK. Just waiting till Thurs.


----------



## Breaking Dawn

Hi ladies...

Thx for the support...i basically was resting the entire weekend. But today I decided to come to work. I want to take Friday off and coming mon/tues off.

I am having an endometrial biopsy and a sono.

I've had the sono before but my RE would like me to have it again before ET since my previous one was 16 months ago. 

I've never had the biopsy before...anyone had it?

Will I get a call tomorrow for day-3 status even tho I'm doing a FET?


----------



## Blythe

Breaking - i would imagine that regardless of whether you are doing a FET or fresh transfer that the calls should still keep coming to update you on your embies.please update here :flower:

i have had a cervical biopsy - cannot remember the details but don't recall any particular pain. I'm not sure if they are comparable though.

Briss - you are not a failure - you are a champion. What clinic are you waiting to hear from? is it UCL? are you going to push for a full stim cycle next time?

only one week till NZtime is going by particularly fast at the moment. i hope you have the most wonderful time and get lots of great pics which you will be able to look at and reminisce about when you are sat at home - when you come back and get pregnant :flower:

i got a pedometer from the pound shop on saturday and have been wearing it all day - i am just shy of 10000 steps [5 miles] so will be jumping around in front of TV to get me there. the 4 packets of salt and vinegar crisps will spoil this though but i will aim for 15000 steps for at least 2 days this week.

gingmg - thinking of you during this 2ww :flower: hope so much it will be the last 2ww you will have for a long long while


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## BBbliss

Blythe, I love those salt and vinegar crisps/chips, I can't even buy them. Before this whole process I had put on 5lb and have not been able to loose but all from not going to the gym but now I just figure it too late I just figure I'm about to put on another 25 Anyway ;)

Briss, you are absolutely not a failure, don't be so hard on yourself, you had made a decision on how you felt it was going to be best for your body. You gave it a shot and you gave it your best, you can always go for a different protocol and from what I hear, every cycle is different, every protocol is different it's such a big decision to make and it's always a surprise, you never know what you are going to get. 

Melly and breaking any news? Praying for your heathy embryos :)

Ging, your doing it! ;)

Afm, had my second E2 today and they called to raise my dose of menopur to 3vials and I go in for scan tomorrow and adding cetrotide to daily shoots. I really don't know what it all means but my base E2 was 27 and after 3days of stims today was 195. Does anyone know if that means anything? I think the 27is low, is that good or bad?


----------



## Briss

gingmg, you might be right but I had a feeling that even at Create they were surprised by my poor response and there was talk of canceling my cycle because of that. I guess until I try full on stims I wont know for sure if it will give me any more eggs. but at Create I was told to go back to natural IVF rather than increasing stims. 

Breaking Dawn, I had biopsy but it was a part of lap&dye/hysteroscopy so I was under general anesthetic. they took a piece from my lining but it came back normal. I think they did not check for any NK cells which would have been helpful so it's good to ask what they are checking it for.

Blythe, thank you! you always find a way to make me feel better :) I called the nurse who was handling my referral docs and she talked to UCH about my situation and apparently they did not lose my papers they just could not allocate a doctor to me :( it's like I am the last one picked on a team and no one wants me... I can just see them looking at my stats and trying to find an excuse not to take me on. depressing. I decided to go to UCH hopefully with NHS funding at least for the meds. I will have to go with what they suggest (if anything) but if they say full on stims I am on board. 

I love your idea with pedometer! I think this is an excellent idea, I may borrow it cos it might motivate me to move around once I realise that I do like 100 steps a day. Do you really walk 5 miles a day? seems like a lot.

afm, DH's bloods are back and apparently the meds made his testosterone jump way too high above the norm so the urologist is reducing the dose by half. DH seems happy but the urologist said it is not a good thing. so no idea whether this had any effect on his sperm. 

things at work are a bit intense so no time to book anything for NZ. the weather does not seem very promising which might not be a bad thing cos I can cover myself in layers considering that my weight loss is failing. I should have added some exercise to my regime but I just cant get myself to do anything, so tired by the time I get home.


----------



## Briss

BBbliss, Thank you! I have checked my IVF notes and I think your estrogen might be low. I am not an expert but as far as I see it your follicles are producing estrogen (but cysts are also producing estrogen so too high estrogen is also not a good thing) so the more follicles and the bigger they grow the higher the estrogen. My estrogen is usually higher then it should be so i may not be a good example but just to give you an idea. on my first IVF my estrogen on day 6 with no stims was 295 and after 2 days of 150 Menopur it went up to 632 on CD8. on my second IVF after 3 days of stims (125 Gonal F) on CD5 my estrogen was 828 and on CD7 after 5 days of stims it was 1,516. I hope your scan goes well tomorrow. is this your first or second scan this cycle?


----------



## gingmg

BBliss- the E2 level is roughly 200 for every mature follicle. So your number of 195 is showing roughly the potential of 1 mature follicle as of now. Don't stress out, it starts low and will slowly increase as more follicles grow and mature. It takes time. The 27 is low, but that is what it is expected at the beginning of the cycle, because follicles are not supposed to be mature at the beginning of a cycle. Your E2 level will rise with time the longer you are on stims and the closer to EC you get. Great progress so far! They had to up my doses after the first four days too, so it doesn't mean anything, other than trying to find the best dose for you.


----------



## BBbliss

Thank you briss and ging I think I was super low on start but hopefully it will rise nicely. I'm still on low doses of stimming. Thank you for your notes briss. it's so much info isn't it? I don't want to get lost in the details but I find it fascinating all that has to happen inside your body to make these follicles. Tomorrow I believe I'm getting a scan. It will be my second but my first was on cd2 so it was only a AFC of 13. Lets see what they look like tomorrow :)


----------



## melly2

Briss: Soon you will be in NZ! You will love it! I was going through my photos last night and getting reminiscent. I'm putting together a scrapbook of the trip. 

AFM: Update on me. We're at day 5 and at this point they have at least 5 embies to biopsy (to send for genetic testing) and she expects about 4 or 5 more tomorrow. It's looking like we'll get between 6-20 frozen and sent off for testing. So happy!! I can stop taking my progesterone for now and let the genetic labs do the rest. It will take two weeks to get the results back, so that may be a bit agonizing for me to wait for those results, but I guess I'll just try to resume life as normal.


----------



## gingmg

Melly-Great news! That's awesome. Do you mind me asking why you are doing the testing? Is there something specific you are trying to avoid, or just trying to give yourself the best possible chances?


----------



## BBbliss

Melly, that's awesome! Those are great numbers I believe the odds are absolutely in your favor at this point. Well done! 

Afm, just came back from scan and Dr. didn't want to tell me how many follicles, he said I have a good number and today's scan was to see if they were growing at a good pace and that nothing was too crazy. I did hear him tell the nurse some measurements and I think I have about five in one side and four on the other that were relevant today. They are all between 6-9 mm. I also found out my basal e2 was just fine, they want it to be low and that's what the BCP does so your ovaries are repressed "quiet" and from here on the goal is to double every 48 hours. Nurse will call with today's level and new dose. I really like how they are monitoring everything so closely I don't even mind going in everyday, I love knowing what's happening :)

I should ad today's is day 5 of stims


----------



## melly2

It's called CCS (Comprehensive Chromosome Screening) testing; and it greatly increases chances of conceptions and implantation, because most miscarriages are due to genetic abnormalities (even very slight). Not very many Fertility centers offer it, but mine does. It does cost about $3000 more, but considering the fact that it may eliminate the need for a second round of IVF, I will happily fork that over. You can read more about it here: https://www.colocrm.com/Services/ComprehensiveChromosomeScreening.aspx


----------



## melly2

BBliss: That's great progress and news!


----------



## gingmg

Melly-Oh OK. I remember reading someone's post about them both being carriers for cystic fibrosis, and could not remember if that was you or not. Guess not. When do you transfer? Next cycle?

BBbliss- great progress! How are you feeling?

Blythe- where are you in this process?

Briss- when are you leaving for NZ?

Breaking- any news?


----------



## BBbliss

We are also doing the screening, they call it PGS, preimplantation generic screening, and I believe it's the same thing. The reason we are doing it is it raises the pregnancy rate to about 70% and eliminates any chance of having a down baby. I had worries about that. My grandmother had her last child, 10 total, at 42, my uncle was a year younger then me and he just past away in October at 43 from heart failure. I wouldn't want to go through that again and if we have a way of knowing we believe its worth it.


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## BBbliss

Ging, I feel great, other then a headache that has lasted for 6 days so far and I feel emotionally sensitive and cry easily with very short temper. I fell fine but I'm a mess, LOL 

How are you? I've been thinking about you a lot and I hope you are doing well and still holding on to those twins of yours :) can't wait to find out!


----------



## Breaking Dawn

Ging...fx for you...hope you're doing well. when do u go in for beta? 

Bliss...sounds like you are doing great! 

Melly...embies are growing well that's fantastic 

AFM...embies are 3-day today...ive decided not to call to get an update as she did say it would be 5-day freezing update....and I'm ok with that. 

So anyone have bloating post retrieval....i have minor bloating and am really worried it's going to get worse...and turn into ohss.


----------



## Briss

melly, it's so reassuring that you had many follicles, I am sure there will be quite a few to chose from but I appreciate how stressful the waiting is. keeping my fingers crossed for your little ones!

BBbliss, I am slightly surprised they did not tell you the number of follicles cos it's a good indication of what to come but I guess it's still too early and the doc did not want to stress you out. still 9 follicles is a great number. I am glad your oestrogen is going well, it mighty be that it's different for long protocol cos I never had suppression so my oestrogen was probably just higher because of that. PGS has its benefits but I guess it all depends on how many embryos you have, if there is 1-2 then maybe it's just better to transfer them and see what happens? I also had a headache when I was on stims but it went away after a few days. 

gingmg, I am off to NZ next week. Are still doing mind/body programme? how is it going? 

Breaking Dawn, sorry about your bloating. Did you tell your doc? I am sure it is going to be fine but just to be on the safe side

afm, lots to do before my trip, still have not done all the bookings but work keeps me very busy.

my weight gain is frustrating because I thought I was doing really well and just in 2 days I put a lot back on. I blame it on bread. I bought really good white bread with poppy seeds - delicious! I had about 4-5 slices and I think they turned into kg of extra weight on my waist. I will try to stick to my 800 up until the trip but I already know I wont reach my goal weight so lots of my slim clothes will have to stay at home.


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## Breaking Dawn

BBbliss said:


> Ging, I feel great, other then a headache that has lasted for 6 days so far and I feel emotionally sensitive and cry easily with very short temper. I fell fine but I'm a mess, LOL
> 
> How are you? I've been thinking about you a lot and I hope you are doing well and still holding on to those twins of yours :) can't wait to find out!

I also had headaches while stimming..one were at night after my shots...so i tied on a bandana and it really helped.


----------



## gingmg

OK here goes. My bloating came back with a vengeance 5-6dp3dt, but turns out its because I tested positive on Saturday. I didn't believe it at first, but three days later and six tests later and the color is getting darker. I wasn't going to say anything yet because I still don't believe it, I don't want to " jinx" it, and I don't want to get too excited until my blood test on Thurs. Its early and anything is possible, including a chemical. But at yoga yesterday I realized (thanks to Blythe's words of wisdom) nothing is going to happen that I cannot handle, so for now I'm just trying to relax. I'm pregnant.:happydance:


----------



## Jazzbird

Ging - wooooooooooo! I know it's early days but just wanted to say a big congrats! This is so exciting! You deserve it xxx

And to everyone else - I'm reading your updates every day and am cheering you all on. The domino effect has definitely started. Hoping and praying you all fall soon. 

Xxx


----------



## Wish4another1

Congrats - I read this thread all the time - not going through IVF so don't comment much - but I did want to say

CONGRATS!!! positive sticky vibes to you!!


----------



## melly2

Ging!! That's great news! I've been waiting for your news! Woo-Hoo!!


----------



## melly2

Breaking: I had bloating too, but in the last day or two it's been subsiding greatly; even to the point where I've lost three pounds. You should see a different in the next day or two.


----------



## Breaking Dawn

Briss
Have a fabulous trip.

I have a sheet I'm filling out...to monitor fluid intake..urine frequency...weight and girth measurement 

If any of them increase over 2 days...continuous. i am to call the nurse.


----------



## Breaking Dawn

Ging...omg sooooooo happy...yay!!! 

Melly...thats for the tip. today I've had chicken for lunch...as protein is spsd to help i had no veggies or carbs. 

I had some salty snack on the side and some gatorade. 

Also...sorry to be TMI but I finally had a non-pee bathroom visit...i haven't had once since the morning of ER.


----------



## Briss

Ging, OMG!!! this is fantastic! so happy for you, keeping my fingers crossed and thinking sticky thoughts&#8230; I am wondering if there are two in there :)


----------



## Blythe

Ging - that really is wonderful news. congratulations on your pregnancy :flower: You must be both elated with the news xx


----------



## gingmg

Thanks for your support and kind words ladies! I think I am in shock more than anything. I don't really believe it yet. I am so happy but also petrified, so just trying to take one step at a time.


----------



## BBbliss

Ging, I feel nothing but complete joy for you right now, had a good feeling about you since the day you said you were crying feeling you had failed :)
Btw, talking to my DD last night she said there are seven pairs of twins on her grade, all very smart, it's a very academic demanding school, so all normal and heathy! 

Breaking, I'm sorry you have not felt well, I do fear OHSS myself and that'll you for the bandana trick, I'm going to try

Blythe when do you start Bcp?

Briss, I'm excited for your trip. Lucky :)

Melly any more news? 

Afm,just got a call (day 5 of stim ) that my E2 is 483! From 195 yesterday. So we have another scan tomorrow to take another look, more then. Double in one day, i hope its not too fast and hopefully I see how many this time. :)


----------



## melly2

Bbliss: Sounds like you are making great progress! So far I have at least 5 that have made it to day 5 and probably a few more for tomorrow. Then they get frozen and the biopsy will get shipped for testing. I now have to wait a couple weeks. 

Breaking: It took me two days to do a poo. I get VERY cranky and agitated when this happens because I'm very regular. It was causing me to be incredibly bloated; however, after a bunch of collace, I now have things moving and my bloat has went way, way down. In fact, I'm now weighing less than when I started stims, which is weird since I'm not running.


----------



## gingmg

BBliss- Sorry you have been feeling a bit more emotional. Yoga was my life line there, long walks and the meditation CDs helped too. Great progress!!


----------



## Breaking Dawn

melly2 said:


> Bbliss: Sounds like you are making great progress! So far I have at least 5 that have made it to day 5 and probably a few more for tomorrow. Then they get frozen and the biopsy will get shipped for testing. I now have to wait a couple weeks.
> 
> Breaking: It took me two days to do a poo. I get VERY cranky and agitated when this happens because I'm very regular. It was causing me to be incredibly bloated; however, after a bunch of collace, I now have things moving and my bloat has went way, way down. In fact, I'm now weighing less than when I started stims, which is weird since I'm not running.

What is collace?


----------



## gingmg

Stool softner.


----------



## melly2

Breaking: Colace is one of the few "approved" medications for constipation during the IVF and post IVF process. It eventually worked for me. 

Ging: I'm still beaming for you! This is so exciting; I hope there are many more to follow ;-)

BBliss: How are you feeling today? Are you now on day 6 of stims?

Briss: Countdown to NZ! I had a dream about NZ last night, it made me happy.


----------



## BBbliss

Ging thank you, I'm going to go for a long beach walk today to try to relax. I'm having problems with my 16yDD and this is such bad timing for that, there's just nothing I can do but use all my resources to try and stay calm. I hope you are happy and well :) 

Melly, yes today is day 6 and I think I could be done with another 3ds! How many days did you end up stimming? This is happening so fast now. I just got back from the clinic and Dr counted about 13 follicles of good size all between 9-13 mm I think there were some more smaller ones he didn't measure but if I get all 13 in good health I'll be so happy :) they gave me the day off tomorrow and I go back for another Scan and blood Friday so I'll know then.


----------



## Breaking Dawn

Bliss...sorry to hear your having problems with you DD. hopefully things work out soon. 

As for you follies...wow awesome!!!!! I stimmed for 12 days...the last 2 days was reduced dosage!

AFM...i am finally feeling better with the bloating...yesterday I drank 2 bottles of gatorade, a glass of v8 and only ate protein ..and salty snacks. 

Well what happened? I woke up to pee THREE times last night and each time it was like the longest pee of my life...lolllll

And this morning my weight was down by 2lbs.

Isn't that crazy?!? LOL


----------



## melly2

BBliss: I ended up stimming for 10 days

Breaking: The exact same thing has happened to me. I've never pee'd so much in my life. The water has been gushing out of me, so I know I definitely don't have OHSS. My body is getting back to normal. Heard from my nurse yesterday and I will probably have my period in the next week or so, then we start the transfer cycle.


----------



## Breaking Dawn

Melly...yes that's exactly what happened! hahaha 

I'm still slightly constipated bit at least things are moving! 

I hope we transfer at the same time so we can be buddies again!!


----------



## melly2

Bbliss: Great follies!!

AFM: Just got my update from the embryologist. She ended up biopsying 11 embryos out of the 16 that were fertilized. Woo-hoo!


----------



## BBbliss

Melly, wow 11 embryos to screen, that's really amazing miso happy for you! So what happens now if you have multiple viable embryos and you have choices have you thought about it? What would you do? One or two? Boy/girl? I know you are not there yet but you must have started to dream at this point

Breaking, Im loving the post-retrieval diet, LOL I can do well on salty chips and gatoraid it's great to hear all the details of what's just ahead for me hehe


----------



## melly2

BBliss: That's a great question. We have decided to freeze the remaining for the time being and we'll see in a couple years if we wish to pursue another child. That said, I feel like I would be a sh*thead if I chose the sex of the baby even though I do have a preference (beggars can't be choosers). Trust me, it's crossed my mind...


----------



## gingmg

Bbliss- outstanding progress! I am sorry you are having a tough time with your DD. Teenage years are awful and awkward and I wouldn't ever want to do it again. Finding yourself can be tough. 

Today's line was a little lighter than yesterdays. This is is what I was afraid of. I drank 3 liters of water at work last night could that be why?


----------



## gingmg

Melly wow, 11 embryos! That's great!


----------



## gingmg

Breaking- glad the bloat is better!


----------



## melly2

Ging: I wouldn't dwell on the line too much; I think there are a lot of variables that could cause that (including dilution). Don't you have your beta test tomorrow?


----------



## gingmg

OK. I do have my test tomorrow, now I will be hoping that the following beta is even higher.


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## Breaking Dawn

Ging.. i agree with melly...diluted urine can affect the test so try to rest and relax until tomorrow. 

Bliss...post retrieval diet is soo helpful.

Honestly it may sounds gross that all I ate yesterday was..protein shake, glass of v8, salty snack, chicken for lunch, salty snacks, 2 bottles of gatorade...and beef for dinner. 

But boy am I so happy that all that got the water out....such a relief!


----------



## BBbliss

Melly, I have a feeling you'll fine ;)

Ging, that could definitely be it, dong you go for test tomorrow? I'll be thinking of you. I know what you mean about being a teen I wouldn't go back there either. But i never disrespected my mother. The problem is her father (my ex) gave her a car and now she thinks she has no rules and can come and go as she pleases. Last night she didn't come home at all, It's daily stress and all I wanted right now was to be enjoying this time stress free, I just wanted to be "happy" as my Dr prescribed. I'm doing weekly ACU and also a weekly massage, today I went to a yin/restorative yoga and it was REALLY good for me. I know I'm doing my best.


----------



## gingmg

Bbbliss- WOW , that's stressful! Its funny how when you are a teenager you think you know everything and are so mature only to come out the other side and realize how little you actually knew and how much less you know now. :) she definitely sounds like she is pushing all limits , so frustrating! My best friend was like that in high school and her mom made her start paying rent if she was going to come and go as she pleased. I am sure you are doing a great job and good for you for trying to stay as stress free as possible. YAY for yoga, I need to go to a class once I am done with this stretch of night shifts.


----------



## Briss

gingmg, best of luck with your beta tomorrow. I am hoping for a high number for you. 

BBbliss, I still cant forgive myself for being so horrible to my mum when I was a teenager. I am sorry you are on the receiving end of this, she loves you really but it's so hard to fight those hormones


----------



## Jazzbird

Just wanted to wish you all the baby dust in the world today ging. I'm thinking of you!

BBbliss - hugs to you too. Your daughter sounds like she's really pushing the boundaries. I promise that she will come back to you full circle - probably not too far away. It must be so hard worrying about her safety and well being and being treated so badly in return. I had a really hard time with my parents in my late teens but adore my Mum now. She'll come back.


----------



## gingmg

There was all kinds of whispering at work tonight that I might be pregnant, that's how badly bloated I am! I can't get it to go away. I've been eating protein, and drinking Gatorade, V8, and coconut water, but nothing is helping.


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## BBbliss

Ging, jazz and Briss, thank you... You girls made me cry, thank you for being here, you are all absolutely right. It's just so hurtful to be in this position, all I think of is the 16 years I raised her alone going through some very tough times keeping her safe and happy and this is what I get back now... I know she'll be back one day


----------



## gingmg

Bbliss- OF COARSE she will be back one day. This is temporary.


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## Breaking Dawn

ging...so excited for your beta results!!

Also...ive read that the bloating won't go away with foods if you are pregnant!!! :dance:


----------



## Briss

BBbliss, one thing my mum noticed was working during those times is trying to give me good advice. I'd of course completely deny that there is any sense in whatever my mum was saying to me and my reaction would be quite horrible but still, my mum said she did notice that I'd consider her words in my own time and ultimately do the right thing. so I'd say keep talking to her even if it does not seem like she is taking anything in, it's most likely that she is.

Interestingly one thing where TTC definitely helped is getting me to understand how much what I feel depends on my hormones. It seems obvious but I never truly understood how this works until I was forced to track my cycle for so long. It's so funny how I am able to fall in love with almost anything around ovulation and as soon as ovulation is over I am left feeling rather puzzled at how I could even like somebody like this&#8230; I am falling for strangest things every month. this month it's the blue guy from watchmen&#8230;. how on earth did I end up having hots for him?? he is not even human&#8230; I blame the hormones and I feel very sorry for my teenage self when I was completely overwhelmed by them without any clue why I have all these random feeling and thinking it must be true love ...


----------



## melly2

BBliss: Sorry you are being tested right now. I'm reading a very interesting book called "All Joy And No Fun". It's a great parenting book, and I'm currently on the chapter about adolescents. She mentioned how there has been numerous studies that indicate that time in parent's life is as stressful as a newborn. Adolescents and parents are between that awkward state of parents doing all the protecting and then suddenly the kids want their independence; and of course, it causes many challenges. I can relate because I was a child of divorced parents and my dad was the more forgiving, liberal parent and my mother was ultra strict. It was a very disjointed way of being raised because I spent the weekends with my dad and he had his rules (if you call them that) and then I spent the weekdays with my mother and she ran her house like a military camp. Trust me when I say, I tested those boundaries big time! My poor mom, she didn't have a hope in hell against my dad. He was the cool, hip dad that let me do what I wanted, and I was horrible to her, as a result. However, when I went to college, I wised up... a lot! Things will get better...just keep the lines of communication open with her.


----------



## Breaking Dawn

Hi everyone 

I've been so nervous all morning and finally I got the call from the embryologist for day 5/freezing update:

We have 9 embies to freeze (!!!!) she said 4 are AA, 1 is AB and 4 are compacted which she said is the blastocyst stage. 

I can't believe this...I'm sooo thankful..

Yay...:)


----------



## melly2

Breaking: That's great news!!


----------



## melly2

Breaking: When do you plan to do the transfer?


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## BBbliss

Breaking, this is really great news! 9 little embies that already hold so much life and possibilities in them, isn't it just so magical and fascinating? Congratulations!


----------



## BBbliss

Briss, melly, breaking and ging... Your advices have helped calm me so much, I'm truly grateful, you are all such loving and caring women and I'm lucky to be in such good company going through this journey.


----------



## Jazzbird

Breaking - so happy for you, what great news!


----------



## Breaking Dawn

Thank you sooo much ladies.

As you know we are going straight to FET. I'm waiting for AF, on normal cycle it is due next Thurs but with retrieval on cd17 I think it will be a few days late. I will then go in for baseline and prep for FET. I'm hoping it will be at the end of march.

It is magical and so fascinating...dh talked about how we have 9 little embies and how crazy that is!

Bliss...yay so happy to have this group too :)


----------



## Briss

Breaking Dawn and melly, great news on your embryos!! so pleased for you!


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## gingmg

Breaking- that's amazing! A and AB are the best, good for you!

Bbliss- glad you are feeling a little better.

Briss- lol, the same thing happens to me around O! Every month I want to have relations with men again, then right after O it goes away. I am used to it now, its been a long time of this. My wife can even sense it and before we were married mentioned that this happens to many lesbians, and its because my body wanted a baby. Every now and then she gets a little sensitive about it. We don't talk about it often, but she knows its there, and sometimes she is afraid I am going to leave for a man, but I'm not. I know myself well enough now to know what I want and don't want. Every time I dated a guy, it didn't last long, it just wasn't for me. But its funny because for those couple of days....

Well its official. Beta 212. Repeat on Monday. I have decided to take it one milestone at a time.


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## Wish4another1

Just wanted to say 

CONGRATS!!!

Ging :wohoo::wohoo::wohoo: that Beta is awesome!!!

Breaking :wohoo: 9 embies!!! so awesome!!!

Melly :wohoo: 11 embies !!! again awesome!!

Bbliss - I have a 22 yr old girl and 17 yr old girl... they do like to test us... and these ladies on here have given you wonderful advice - keep talking and keep loving... they don't forget the love they have for mom...
:hugs::hugs:


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## melly2

Wish: Thank you!

Ging: Great news on the beta!! Woo-hoo! You have the right attitude, take it one day at a time! I laughed at your men comments around ovulation! Hah! I get weird around ovulation and start finding my co-workers more attractive. Yikes!

Breaking: I think we'll be on the same transfer cycle too. I'm hoping the last week of March as well! This will be fun!


----------



## BBbliss

GINGoMG!!! If I wasn't caring (eggs) right now I'd be jumping for joy for you, so so happy!

You and briss, crack me it's so true! I never used to be that way with the iud because there's no fluctuation but I'm definitely different every week now, I'm going to pay attention and remember that next time I feel tempted ;)


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## BBbliss

Wish, thank you and you are right, I think every single advice was spot on and it helped so much. Great ladies, all of you, all very deserving of your little miracles :)

One by one... We're doing it :)


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## Jazzbird

Yaaaaaay Ging!!! So so happy for you. Good idea to take it one step at a time - I drove myself crazy in the first few weeks obsessing. Getting better now but I still worry constantly. 

It's wonderful news and you should celebrate every stage and success. Btw my first symptom apart from cramping was bloating. I'm still horribly bloated after meals!


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## alison29

sounds like my beta with twins which was 180! Happy for you.. I have a friend at work who is same sex couple and they are trying for baby. They just started at the RE and now have to change from donor they know to anonymous (which costs lots of money as you know) I have been lurking around following..You will be so lucky to have two moms to love your baby :)


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## alison29

Have any of you guys tried keto diet for fertility? This doctor of hers is a big proponent of this. Basically high fat No carb or (like 24 carbs a day). It helps with insulin resistance.They had her do the glucose test thing where she turned up slightly insulin resistant. Her doctor also told her no calorie counting or running but that she needed to do the no carb thing. Only walking not even power walking..I hope this helps someone..


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## Breaking Dawn

Ging..i am so so so happy. I have a huge smile on my face :hugs: now let's see it double!!

Wish4..thank you so much :). Nice to see you dropping by!

Melly yes...transfer buddies!!! :d


----------



## terripeachy

Ging-I'm sneaking on here to also say Congratulations!! It's been a long time coming. So happy for you.

And to the others-I've been stalking. You have tons of women rooting for you, even though you may not know it. 

<3<3 Sending tons of love to all.


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## Briss

gingmg, congratulations!! most wonderful news! so happy for you :) btw, loved your men comment :)

Jazzbird, have you done any tests? I think there are some blood tests for the baby that you are supposed to do closer to 3 months but I am not sure.


----------



## Jazzbird

Hey lovely Briss. I've had my blood tests done and I found out I'm rhesus negative which means I have to have injections to stop producing anti bodies against any future babies with rhesus positive blood type. 

Looking forwards up hearing all about your NZ trip - I have always wanted to visit 

So the domino effect has officially started - can't wait for the next announcements. Sending lots of fertile baby dust to melly and breaking and to everyone else!

Xxx


----------



## Blythe

Gingmg. Brilliant beta. So reassuring for you. Congratulations on your really wonderful news :flower:


----------



## Briss

Jazzbird, my mum is also rhesus negative but both me and my brother are rhesus positive and both pregnancies were fine. Did they ask you to do any of the scary tests like down syndrome? 

afm, DH was drinking again last night, am so upset! also looks like I am ovulating tomorrow so no sex on the plane for me. saw a couple with a baby on the tube this morning and just could not hold the tears, had to leave the train&#8230; I am so scared of the future I do not think I will be able to live among people and see children every day, I may end up living somewhere in remote areas like deep forests somewhere away from it all &#8230; I know I should be excited about NZ but it's just not enough to lessen my pain and fears 

the bloody clinic put me on a waiting list!! WTF?? my friend was referred two weeks after me and already got her appointment while I am still waiting for an available appointment.


----------



## Breaking Dawn

Briss. ....why a waiting list? 

You will get thru this will a little one...its hard to be positive when everything is so dark. but it will happen. NZ is a much needed break so so your best to let negative feelings go....as that plane lifts off shed all your hurt and anger and come back refreshed!!!!


----------



## melly2

Briss: ugh! Sorry for the news about the waiting list. This will happen for you, and I know it's hard to stay positive, but enjoy the time you have now to travel and be alone with your DH. When we were in NZ, I forgot about everything and enjoyed every moment with my husband. We drank at least a bottle of red wine every night and watched the sun set over the ocean. It was truly a wonderful experience and I get sentimental knowing that we may not have a vacation like that (just him and I, at least), for a long time. Putting your stresses aside may allow you to relax and take in the simple pleasures of life, before things get hectic. Enjoy a good bottle of NZ wine, take in the sunsets, quiet time and scenery; it's as close to heaven as you'll ever get on earth. ;-)

Things will happen for you...have faith. (I know, easier said than done). 

Ging: How you feeling? Are you sick or anything? That's a stellar beta, so you must be over the moon! So happy for you!


----------



## BBbliss

Briss, great advice from breaking and melly, you know something happens when you get on a long flight and go to a different country, as soon as you get of the plane you can feel the energy shift and you know you are AWAY from everything, and I mean everything! You'll have different thoughts, feelings perspectives on everything, use this time for yourself and take it all in every moment you are there looking at something beautiful, feed your soul with natures beauty it will be all the medicine you need to come back brand new and really for your next step. 

Afm, We are going to the Florida keys next weekend and I can't wait to take a break. It will be perfect right after ER and I should be getting my 3day report by them and I'm really going to try to relax, wear flip flops day and night, buy a straw hat and watch the sunset sipping a perfect mohito :)


----------



## Breaking Dawn

Bbliss...that is perfect little trip!

We have decided to take a short trip as well....after transfer. so plan is to rest for 2-3 days at home. Then 2-3 days have a staycation. About 45-60min drive...stay in a hotel...order room service....read. and not worry about domestics of resting at home. 

Cannot wait!


----------



## melly2

You all have the right idea! I'm doing the exact opposite; in fact, my company's largest product launch ever (which will dictate the future viability of the company) happens at the end of April, and I'm a huge part of this launch. Timing isn't ideal; however, I thrive on chaos and it'll help distract me. Hopefully it won't be too stressful. Bbliss: Enjoy the keys! I'm sooooo jealous.


----------



## Briss

Breaking Dawn, thank you. I will try to leave all TTC related worries behind as soon as I step on that plane (I am trying to visualise how wonderful that would make me feel) and just hope I can forget about everything for 3 weeks. btw, your plan sounds perfect, exactly what you need to relax and let implantation do its job. 

melly, I was actually thinking about local wines but then I will be in TWW (yes, so much for trying to leave all TTC related worries behind&#8230;), I seem to be unable to function in other mode but TTC. even though I know with DH's sperm it's almost impossible to get pregnant naturally there is still a tiny hope for a miracle, always. That product launch sounds awfully stressful but I hope it will distract you from the agony of TWW. 

BBbliss, that sounded so uplifting! thank you. Enjoy the keys!


----------



## Jazzbird

Briss - really feel for you but hoping that some time away will do you the world of good. I know it's impossible to leave ttc worries behind but hopefully it might just alter your perspective, strengthen your relationship and give you a breath of fresh air. 

In answer to your qu - yes they offered downs screening and we had it. I would rather know but thankfully the risk was estimated at 1:4241. But I guess the 20 week scan is the one that can detect most issues.

I love all the trip ideas - I'm jealous! Such a great idea to do it after egg transfer. 

Gingmg - hope you are ok and relaxing as much as you can. I remember worrying about getting on a vibrating bus that it might dislodge the embryo!


----------



## BBbliss

Breaking your little trip sounds peeeeeerfect too!!! I think we are all getting exactly what we need, btw Melly you are a super-woman :) the words "thrive on chaos" will never be used to describe me, LOL when I'm stressed I just need peace and quiet, but it sounds really exiting for you. Good luck!!!!


----------



## Blythe

Briss - I'm sorry to hear about the argument - i hope you are feeling a bit better :flower:

i hope you have a truly wonderful time - i love that feeling when the plane gets above the clouds the most - leave the TTC crap behind in the UK and it will be here when you come back along with your forthcoming BFPs.

Ladies - i love following your progress.


BBBliss - how are you feeling? do you have any symptoms yet with the stims?

AFM - i had my last BCP today and my first injection of buserelin - thankfully i have lots of timer on my frame at the moment for it to sink into without too much pain. My DH did it because i am a woos. i will be down regging with the buserelin for at least 12 days before they check to see if i am quiet then we will see.i may be doing my ER when breaking is doing her ET.


----------



## gingmg

Briss- When do you leave? I agree that this trip might be EXACTLY what you need to recharge and reset. Rest, relax, enjoy the sights, the sunsets, and this time with your husband. You have to do what you are comfortable with, but I would think a little bit of red wine would be okay in the two week wait. I don't think it could hurt anything, but again, you have to do what you are comfortable with. I hope you have the time of your life, and leave all things TTC behind for a bit, they will be waiting for you when you come back. Try your best to get yourself in the best frame of mind possible. This might be your last big trip like this with just your husband, so enjoy it, let go and have a blast! 

BBliss- When is EC, next week? The keys sound wonderful. I've only been to key west, which one are you going to?

Breaking- Getting away for a staycation is a brilliant idea. 

Melly- Busy lady!

Blythe- It will start to go fast now. I can't believe you are starting already!!


----------



## Breaking Dawn

TGIF Ladies!!! What a busy day!

I have my endometrial biopsy tomorrow morning.....I'm hoping its quick and painless.

Eeeeek :nope:


----------



## gingmg

Breaking- Do you mind me asking what the biopsy for? Good luck, hope it is quick and easy.


----------



## Jazzbird

Accidentally unsubscribed from this thread so just posting to get my subscription back!


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## Breaking Dawn

Ging...

My RE likes to have a look at the cells in lining one week after retrieval - of course not on fresh cycle - ....and this causes your lining to become "sticky" as blood rushes to the area. 

Because of this "sticky" effect many clinics perform this procedure one cycle before a transfer. Also since he's looking at the lining exactly one week after retrieval that would be around the time of implantation ...ie one week after ovulation...

I've heard other posters refer to endometrial biopsy as ...(unfortunately ) scraping ...:wacko:


----------



## gingmg

Awe yes, I have heard of it as a scratch. Supposed to help! Hope it is quick and painless.


----------



## BBbliss

Briss, how exiting for you! It will go fast now you'll see, my only symptom is that constant headache, low grade during the day and stronger at night. 

Breaking, I hope all is going well for you this morning, so many steps isn't it? 

Ging, how are you feeling? I hope you are more relaxed and happy now, the worrying is called being a mother, it will always be there... Forever! We are going to key west this time, I just love it down there, it's like the whole town is on vacation all year-round. 

I'm on morning of day 9, yesterday u/s showed the same 13 follicles between 11 and 17 mm and my E2 was 1562, btw US and UK scales are different UK numbers are higher. Tomorrow morning I have another u/s and B and depending on how everything looks I'll trigger tomorrow for a Tuesday retrieval or I go go another day and trigger Monday and collect Wednesday. I'm nervous and excited, I've been very happy with the progress and my body has responded exactly how it was planned. I'm on 150iu gonal-F 3vial(225iu) menopur and 1 cetrotide now. I still don't know my trigger protocol, if my E2 level gets high on day of trigger I'll have to do Lupron trigger. I'll know tomorrow :D


----------



## melly2

Breaking: That's kinda interesting that they're doing that. I don't have any scheduled check ups until we start my next cycle. I'm hoping (believe it or not) that I get AF this week. Holy cow...my boobs are huge! I told my husband, I think my body assumed I was having 21 babies, so boobs started growing to produce milk for that many. Ugh! I hate when they get like this...I'm hoping it's just PMS boobs and they subside in a week. Are you having this symptom too? I'm not bloated, however.

Bbliss: That's great progress! 13 follies is great!


----------



## gingmg

Bbliss- 13 follicles is great! You are so close now! I am fine. Minor AF like cramping. Mostly I feel good and am calm, but am worried about something going wrong. Just trying to take it one milestone at a time.


----------



## Briss

Breaking Dawn, i have heard about lining scratch but i thought biopsy was different it's when they take a piece of the lining and research it. at least that's what I had. people say lining scratching increases implantation chances.


----------



## Briss

BBbliss, so far so good, it's getting close now! 13 follicles is wonderful! you are responding really well to stims.


----------



## Breaking Dawn

Bliss..your follie progress sounds good ...hopefully you can trigger soon and get past the retrieval ! 

Melly....my boobs are huge too..lol. DH keeps commenting lol thinks he likes it...I'm no longer bloated either . I'm also hoping AF comes next week....on a normal 28 day cycle she's to be here on Thursday. But I'm wondering if ER will throw that off....cause technically I ovulated on ER day which was 3 days after my usual O...

Ging...if cant remember..when is your next beta!?

Briss....so it's pretty much the same thing. For a scratch they just do that and for a biopsy ..once done scratching they put the instrument into a test tube for tests.


AFM....I'm doing well...just minor cramping. The procedure itself is not as bad as I thought. It wasn't painful ...so....didn't feel any sharp pains or pokes. Just felt cramping as the scraping (3 scrapes back and forth) happened. Once it stopped the cramping lessened. 

I was told I may see some spotting ...so I've got a liner on.

I now have my sono....which had during my first round of fertiltiy tests but bc that was a yr ago , we are doing another one on Tuesaday.


And yes, I cannot wait for AF to get here!!!


----------



## BBbliss

I'm just back from my u/s and I have 16 follicles! I know there are not all going to be mature, but I feel really good about it. I'm waiting for the nurse to call me later today with instructions but I think I'm going to trigger tonight! 

So far so good :)


----------



## gingmg

BBliss- this is great!!! I have a good feeling for everyone. One by one...:flower:

Beta tomorrow, FX it is rising appropriately.


----------



## BBbliss

You are going to be fine ging :)


----------



## Breaking Dawn

Bliss....so exciting. Don't worry the trigger shot helps mature the follies it's one last boost!

Ging ....can't wait to hear your beta # tomorrow!!

AFM....I'm having seriously TMI stomach issues....I've been 90% constipated since ER ...and now the flood gates are open :nope:


----------



## melly2

bbliss: Great number of follies!! Wow, can't believe you're already at the retrieval phase now!

Breaking: I was horribly constipated after ER for a couple days, but broke it loose with some magnesium and collace. I had some cramping last night and today; so I'm thinking AF is on her way in the next couple few days.


----------



## BBbliss

Aiaiai! One more day of stims, so I don't trigger tonight yet, another u/s and b/w tomorrow. E2 today is 2780. I'll have a total of 11 days of stims and tomorrow better be the last day because I run out of ALL my medication after my AM shots 

Breaking, I'm already having BM problems LOL, and my boobs are soooo sore. I can only imagine how much worse its going to get, but you know what? So worth it if I get fertilized mature healthy eggs :)


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## Breaking Dawn

Bliss...yay so close t your ER!!!

Yes it's soo worth it.....

Remember the followings tips to avoid ohss and help get rid of the fluids that will start entering your ovaries after ER.

Don't drink water!!! 
Drink Gatorade or v8 - both contain salt
Eat lots of protein and try to keep carbs and veggies/fruit low.
Drink protein shakes
Eat salty snacks!!


here is why...
Your egged are removed so that empty space is filled with water from your body. The more water you drink the more it flows to that space. Ohss is caused when the ovaries cannot hold the water and they start leaking the water into your abdomen cavity.

Water follows salt. If you drink/eat salty things , the salt enters your bloodstream...now you've got lots salt there. The excess water then follows the salt. So it moves from your ovaries into your bloodstream into your urine.

I was kinda following this diet for 2 days and by the third morning I felt sooo uncomfy. So I did 100 percent and then I think I mentioned I was peeing non stop cause all that liquid was coming out...lol


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## gingmg

BBliss- good luck tomorrow. Will be thinking of you!!!

Beta #1 212 #2 607 So yes it's higher, but it is not doubling. Hopefully I am a slower riser? They said 1/3 of the women don't double and it turns out okay. Trying not to worry. Please say a little prayer. FX!!! Repeat on wed.


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## gingmg

Okay found a little online calculator. Most women double every 48 hours. My results are showing a 63 hour doubling time, which is a little slower, but acceptable. Feeling better.


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## BBbliss

Breaking, this is soooo helpful! I didn't know any of this! I'm going to do all of it for sure. 

Ging, I will say a prayer! And I'm glad you found that link I do the same with every bit of info I get I run to dr. Google LOL my DF says I'm the queen of research 

I' ll trigger tonight and most likely it will be a lupron trigger, I saw my follicles today and they look nice and plump :) I'm just waiting for my call with my e2 level and instructions now. I'm really praying those are healthy eggs. Fingers crossed.


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## Breaking Dawn

Ging...that's still a great number and quite the jump!!! 

It will continue to jump :flower:

Congrats Hun!!


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## Blythe

Gingmg. Congrats and please don't worry yourself....all is well. :flower:

Bbbliss. I'm thinking of you and those super eggs getting ready for collection. :flower:

Breaking. Great advice. If I get to the ec stage I will be following this to the letter.


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## gingmg

Bbliss- Good luck tomorrow. You'll do great! Great advice from breaking! Can't wait to hear!


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## Breaking Dawn

Bliss...Goodluck. And we will be waiting to hear how it goes!!


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## Jazzbird

BBbliss - good luck tmrw. Thinking of you xxx


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## Jazzbird

Ging - I'm sure everything is ok. It's hard but once you get the +ve lines it's non stop worry from then on. I have come to the conclusion that the less you know the better. Every pregnancy is different. Unless you get strong cramping with bleeding then you are hopefully ok. I know there are exceptions. In the beginning I bought some of those darn clear blue conception indicators. My pregnancy wasn't mirroring the indicator and it drove me mad with stress. It kept saying I was 1-2 weeks when I was 4+.

Try to relax - all you can do is eat well, sleep well, relax and take your vitamins. Everything else is out of our hands. 

Xxx


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## melly2

bbliss: Good luck today! Many embies!

Ging: Agree with Jazz, every pregnancy is different, it sounds like you are progressing well, so stay positive.


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## Breaking Dawn

Bliss.. Gluck hun! 

Melly...any signs of AF?

Afm....had my sono today it was much better experience then when I first had it. The results were good at first I was a little concerned bc the RE said..whats that...to the u/s technician..and pointed at the screen. but then he said oh it's just your lining a little thicker bc your period is due... *phew*

So another step ticked off. Now I wait for AF. Hopefully she's on time...on Thurs. 

I did ask the RE...when I would have ET. he said if I'm regular cycle then usually cd19.


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## melly2

Breaking: I have my weirdo PMS cramps, so I'm guessing in the next day or two. I'm starting to feel miserable so I hope it comes soon! Sounds like you're progressing well. I'm not exactly sure when I transfer, it will depend on AF and how thick my lining gets and when. I'm guessing early April.


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## melly2

Spoke too soon. AF came full force this afternoon. Day 1 of transfer cycle commences.


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## Breaking Dawn

melly2 said:


> Spoke too soon. AF came full force this afternoon. Day 1 of transfer cycle commences.

Melly....I'm so excited for you!!


Will be right behind you ....hopefully AF is on time.


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## BBbliss

Melly, now exciting! The time will past fast for you now you'll see and I hope you have a nice think lining just the way it needs to be. 

Breaking same for you! You will do great, everything has been going well, it's just the next exciting step to a successful ivf story :)

I'm still so happy for you ging, you are doing great and I can't wait for my turn :)

Briss have you left to NZ yet? I hope the beauty of the place takes away all your worries. 

Blythe, are you sticking with the original protocol they had chosen for you or are there changes? Are you only on gonal f?

Afm, I triggered last night and ER is tomorrow. It was comical, DF has done ALL of my shots and when I saw the needle I freaked out, lol ... All good, we did it! My collection is tomorrow and I've just been so sensitive dealing with DD issues. It's taken my whole day and I had to finally enlist the help of my family to help me. I've been feeling emotional and feel like I can't give the issue all of my 100% of attention RIGHT now. Such bad timing... I just told my Mom today about the IVF, I didn't want to worry or stress her before I knew we had some viable eggs, and also I didn't want her to tell anyone. Well now she know because I need her help. I have an incredible supportive loving family and I'm blessed for it and everyone is on my side now and are involved. Everything will be all right in the end I just wish I didn't have this extra stress today of all days. 

Thank you so much for your support as well girls, you have all been wonderful friends and I have received some of the best advice from you. I love you all for that and more :)

I'm going to report back tomorrow as soon as I'm able and sound after I get home from ER tomorrow.


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## Briss

BBbliss, best of luck with EC!! you had about 16 follicles on your last scan? This is just super!! fingers crossed for lots of healthy and mature eggs!

afm, just arrived in NZ, last few days before the flight were so crazy I did not have any time to write. good news I lost weight! last week I ate very little about 550-650 calories a day and lost a kg in a week which made a whole lot of difference to my look. so am very pleased (which is not typical for me to feel good about stuff)

flight was really hard actually, TMI but was vomiting a lot, headache is still really bad and my skin aged like 10 years. I am really not managing such long flights. Most of the time my body could not understand whether it was day or night cos they were changing rapidly. Hopefully will recover in a few days. at the moment just want to have a shower and sleep for at least a day!


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## gingmg

Bbliss- will be thinking of you today!!!


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## melly2

bbliss: Thinking of you! Good luck on the retrieval today. Let's get those embies!

Briss: Yes, it's a very long flight. My husband I took sleeping pills AND drank several glasses of wine. Knocked us out for 12 straight hours; it was glorious! You may want to try the sam on your way back. We both slept like babies. 

AFM: The WORSE period of my life. Holy hell! My lining was very thick since I took Medrol for several days (in case they had to do a fresh transfer) and I had missed period from the previous month. I must've had an extra thick lining. I've never had such a bad and flowy period. Sorry...TMI.


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## BBbliss

Hi girls, so here I am just trying to relax and not worry, what else can we do right?

ER went well but I only had eight eggs, I'm disappointed I had some empty follicles in there but Dr has been trying to tell me that all along. He told me not every follicle wound have an egg. Now I guess I just wait to hear from the embryologist to see what kind of quality my body was able to produce. 

I feel tired but no pain or spotting yet


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## Blythe

BBBliss - oh darling I'm glad you home and resting. 8 eggs is pretty darn amazing. i am at the down regging stage and just terrified of not getting to the ER stage..i have spent too much time googling recently and so many women just don't respond. You have done so well and i hope you rest well tonight :flower:

Briss - Good advice from Melly - Big thumbs up to wine and sleeping pills :) I hope the jet lag goes soon and you get rehydrated but most of all i hope you both have the most wonderful time there. 

Melly - :happy dance: for CD1 - hope this is the last period you will have for at least 9 months!

AFM - just trundling along with my daily down reg injections. I had a headache today but really nothing to complain about. Im having lots of water and trying to up my water intake. i have been having mad dreams!


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## gingmg

BBliss- 8 is fantasitc!!! Don't be discouraged, this is great news!!! Glad you are getting some rest. Am sending postivie thoughts to you! 

Blythe-when do you start stims? I am so excited for you!

Melly- My cycles are always heavier after gonal-f, and that was a lower dose for IUIs. I bet not having had a period for awhile adds to that as well. Starting fresh, it will be a great thing! Hope this is your last cyle for a long time...

Briss- ENJOY NZ and leave the world behind. Can't wait to hear all about it!


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## Breaking Dawn

Bliss...so glad you are doing well...8 eggs is great!!! don't let that get you down...keep us posted on the fertilization report! 

Busy day..for me....will be back later to reply!!!


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## Briss

BBbliss, well done! 8 eggs is still pretty great, in my books anyway, i will be so happy if I can manage that many eggs for my next IVF. keeping my fingers crossed for fertilisation 

melly, thanks! I actually think it might have been the wine that got me vomiting. They served really good australian red and I simply couldn't say no to that :) sorry about rough AF but agree with Blythe so hope this is your last AF for a long time :)

Blythe, do they supervise your down reg? I am wondering what protocol they will put me on, so far it does not look like they want me there at all. 

DH left his hormonal medication at home! I was so upset but luckily in Dubai airport you can buy just about anything and with no prescription so we are good. I have to say that I am quite happy with how this treatment affects DH, cant say anything about the sperm quality/quantity yet but I have been waking up to a fully erect penis almost every morning!! that just never ever happened before, feels like a real marriage now :) 

it's a lovely morning here in Auckland, we are off to explore the island :)


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## gingmg

Briss- ah lol!!!! Sounds like you have lots to enjoy on that island!


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## Breaking Dawn

Briss....LMAO at fully erect penis. So happy you are enjoying your trip!!

Bliss...can't wait for fertilization report...go spermies go!

Melly...sorry AF is awful....hopefully it's over soon ...here you come FET!

Ging...hope you are doing well...feeling ok?

Blythe....stims will be here before you know it!!

AFM...have had little inklings of my pre-AF headache....so it should be here soon!


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## melly2

Briss: What's your husband on? Sounds like something I need for my husband; his hormones are off too and hasn't been his "normal" self every since he had testicular cancer. It's been a bummer. Enjoy Auckland! It's a great city! Plus go grab a ferry to one of the islands in the Hauraki Gulf. We never got to Tiritiri Matangi island because the ferry only ran on certain days, but I heard that it's awesome (rare bird species). We went to Ragnitoto island and Waiheke island instead. Have fun!!

Breaking: hopefully AF comes soon. 

AFM: My doctor told me that I could not use tampons or exercise for two weeks after the procedure. Today marks two weeks, so I assume I can now use tampons? What's everyone's thinking on that? I didn't know if it was a good idea or not? Also, I can resume aerobic exercise today, so I plan to run this afternoon.

Hope everyone is doing well today.


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## gingmg

Melly- I would think it would be ok to use tampons.


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## BBbliss

Blythe you had such an awesome AFC on your last scan that I don't think you should worry at all, from my experience I had all my original, at least, follicles develop. I will do great!

Briss, morning erections? What's that? LoL please do tell us what his on. Not that I want to have sex every morning but when I do it would be nice to see it "ready" on demand :) well that should really make you vacation extra special ;)

Melly, I'm jealous of your AF, hahah I think my lining was only a 7 a couple of days before ER good thing we didn't plan on fresh transfer. It's a good sign!

Breaking I hope you also have a heathy flow, it's nice to know you don't have a problem there. 

Ging, I LOVE looking at your spoiler :) it made me smile knowing that things are well with you. 

AFM, I confess I was down yesterday after my ER but I think it was partially because of the effects of anesthesia, I felt fatigued all day and only felt disappointed I had empty follicle. This morning I felt better and even better after I got my call from my nurse. I felt much better the second I heard her voice because she sounded happy. 

So here it is: ALL 8 of my eggs fertilized!!!!! And 7 are normal! 

So far those 7 have progressed normally and they will call me every morning every day to let me know how they are doing. This is such a huge relief from yesterday and now I can relax and let it go... Take one day at a time. Today we are HAPPY! :)


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## Jazzbird

Wooooooo BBbliss! Lovely news!! Hoping they all progress and you will be spoilt for choice!

Xxx


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## gingmg

BBliss- This is outstanding news!!!!!!!! :yipee::yipee:
Sending you lots of love and positive thoughts that they continue doing this great!! :thumbup:


I took vit E to help my lining (Juniper had mentioned it once) but if you are already taking baby aspirin, I don't know if you need both. My RE doesn't like supplements, but yours seems open to it. Maybe ask about it?


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## gingmg

AFM- I want to stay following you laides. I won't feel comfortable about this pregnancy until I see a heartbeat, and we still have a couple of weeks for that. I almost didn't change my ticker because I didn't want to "jinx" anything, but then I realized, "what will be will be" and nothing I do is going to change the outcome of this, be it good or bad. I know we are only "virtual" friends, but I feel like we have been through so much together, and you ladies know more about what has been going on in my life this last year than anyone in my real life. I wish nothing but wonderful things for each and every one of us. I have a sneaky suspicion that 2014 is going to be a good year for all of us. :flower: And cheers to friendship.:hugs:


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## Blythe

BBBLiss - that really is wonderful newsi look forward to hearing about their development over the next few days. It is such an exhausting stressful process and I'm happy to hear you are back feeling better :flower:

Ging - glad to see you have changed your ticker to show your status. i have spent so much of my life holding my breath waiting, waiting, waiting that actually we must celebrate what is happening now. You are now pregnant and you must let yourself enjoy it. all will be well :flower: we are all friends now and without this outlet i would have crumbled some time ago. i tell you girls things i would not share with others including those i have known for years

Briss - my DR is completely unsupervised. i believe this is the same for most women though. today is day 7 and i have had bad headaches but also something quite wonderful happened. i was going through some old files at work and found myself thinking about having sex [with a now retired minister] and felt very aroused - this is great - this never happens nowadaysI was glowing and feeling very young today :)

I hope you had a wonderful day exploring and enjoying each other. i have not had sex for about 2 monthsi cannot remember normal sex, only TTC sex. No bother i will sort it out once i get pregnant like everything else!!

I go for my DR scan on weds next week so i am hoping to start my period tomorrow or sat and get rid of my lining. I have been spotting on and off, sometimes quite heavily since CD1 when i started on the BCP so fingers crossed i will be ready to start stimming next week. To be honest as it is an NHS clinic it will be a case of starting when they can fit me in for EC so it is quite possible that even if i am ready they will keep me DRing for another week. Im just terrified of them cancelling the cycle because of cysts etc so if the stims are delayed i will be fine with that. But the sooner the better really as my DH has a big family get together coming up and i know that will involve drink. he came home last night having consumed shots of saki so i need him to stay away from the booze in order for me to keep sane!


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## Breaking Dawn

Ging...I'm so happy that you have a ticker. it put a huge smile on my face to see one of "us" with a ticker! 

Bliss...yayyyyyy!! fantastic news. Grow little embies grow! Excited to hear your next update.

Blythe...I'm sooo excited you will be stimming soon!! before you know it.. you're be having ER.

Melly...how are you hun? AF still around?

AFM...so last night and this morning AF made an appearance but she hasn't fully shown herself.....but either way I'm glad she's here!


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## Briss

BBbliss, wow 7 embies! that's great! keep us posted on their development! so far so good.

Blythe, having sexy thoughts is great, brings more blood flow to your ovaries (at least thats what I keep telling myself) :) once you start stimming there might be more of that coming your way so get used to it. 

Melly, My DH is on tamoxifen, originally he was on 20 mg a day but he responded too well to the treatment and in 6 weeks his testosterone jumped way above the norm so he is now on 20 mg every other day. Interestingly tamoxifen is actually a drug to treat breast cancer and anovulatory infertility

afm, we kept arguing last night most likely still jet lagged and due to lack of sleep. I drove about 600 km yesterday, beautiful scenery almost everywhere we went!! but on the way back almost fell asleep while driving, that was quite scary but the worst part I crashed into a column at our car park, now how lame is that! luckily we got full insurance cover and I am hoping they can leave us the car cos we still have 2 weeks to drive around, we just need to figure out how to attach bumper back to the car....


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## Breaking Dawn

Briss....oh no...hope this doesn't mean you can't keep driving the car!! 

Hope it gets sorted!


----------



## gingmg

Briss Oh no! :dohh:


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## Breaking Dawn

Ging...how are you?

I love looking at your ticker...it gives me hope :)


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## gingmg

Breaking- I am fine. No symptoms really. Kinda would like some nausea to put my mind at ease. Petrified of loosing it/them, it seems to be quite common, but I keep telling myself " there is nothing that is going to happen that I cannot handle". 

Did you start your proper flow yet?


----------



## gingmg

Blythe- I agree with briss. If you are having these sexy thoughts now.... you are getting so close to stims, I am so excited for you!


----------



## melly2

Blyth: Great news and sounds like you will be starting your stims, right behind the rest of us! 

Ging: I think being cautious is wise, but I think it's time to get excited too! It sounds like you're progressing as expected.

Briss: Too bad about the car, but with the insurance, it'll be okay. I always get intimidated driving in countries where they drive on the other side; I left my husband take on the driving. How fun to explore though! Thanks for passing that medication information along, my husband could use a little more...umph!

Breaking: Yay for Aunt Flo! She can be a bitch, but she can be the greatest friend when you want her, too!

AFM: AF is now starting to trail off. I'm starting to feel back to my 'normal' self (out running and such). My boobs are still rather large though. Hmmmmm. Also, I *finally* get to have sex. Jeez...it feels like it's been forever.


----------



## Breaking Dawn

Ging...yes full flow yesterday was cd1 officially in my FET cycle. 

Melly...did you hear anything about not having sex when you naturally O before your FET? 

AFM...have my cd3 appt tomorrow...so hopefully get a better idea of fet date!

I'm really excited but I kinda have to remind myself that this might not work....not everyone is lucky on the first try.


----------



## melly2

Breaking: I was told no sex for two weeks after ET, plus, I was too scared during stimming, so I passed during those weeks as well. So, needless to say, it's been a very long time. 

I won't know about the transfer until I get the results back on the embies. They should be back next week. For now, I'm on BCP, so that I don't ovulate.


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## BBbliss

Briss, I'd hope they would just give you another car to drive since you have insurance. Looking back this will just be a funny vacation story to tell your friends over a glass, or two, of wine when you go back. 

Ging, of course you won't go anywhere, even after you hear that heart beat, you are not done here miss. 

Btw, how are you Jazz? How far? 

Blythe, I spotted too on BCP whenever I didn't take it at same exact time it would happen. Still it all went well so don't worry about it. The once desirable side effect I never had was "sexy thoughts" :( this trying to make a baby thing has been the worse thing for my libido. I've never felt this way in my life...


Melly and Breaking I'm jealous of your peace of mind right now, LOL as I sit here staring at my phone waiting for my report call :/

And praying!


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## Breaking Dawn

Bliss...i know that feeling. being at work all morning and holding my mobile near by so I didn't miss the embryologists call on day 5.

Can't wait to hear your news!!


----------



## Jazzbird

Hello lovely ladies - reading every day and cheering you all on!

Excited to read your next update BBbliss - hoping all those embryos are A grade 

Melly & Breaking - so hoping this is your last AF for 9 months. 

Briss - the car crash sucks but pleased you are covered. We never paid the excess in kefalonia and a bus driver swerved and hit our car and it was written off!!! Cost us 400 euros. It's a good story to tell though! I hope you get over your jet lag soon and can really start enjoying your trip!

Blythe - good you are feeling sexy - I really think it helps to invigorate the reproductive system. 

Ging - you are so right to celebrate the now. I was so cautious I didn't change my status til 12 week scan. I went crazy researching miscarriage stats. You are through the 2 biggest hurdles: getting pregnant & past the first 2 weeks (4 weeks pregnant). I think something like 70% of miscarriages happen in first 2 weeks. Try and take each day as it comes. I'm pretty sure symptoms aren't a reliable sign either so if you don't get nausea, try not to worry. 

AFM - I'm nearly 19 weeks and have my 20 week scan in just over a week. I'm excited but also anxious everything will be ok. I have felt some definite kicks today which was lovely. On another note - with all your sexy talk I feel left out! We haven't dtd since I conceived. I've either had my head down the toilet or one of us has had flu! I've never felt so unsexy with vomiting, bloating, nausea, heartburn and flatulence!! What a catch!

So happy you are all moving forwards and hope you'll be adding tickers too soon. 

Xxx


----------



## BBbliss

Jazz isn't it such an amazing feeling? :) all will go well on your scan, you'll see

This ttc is not sexy at all but if I get to the being preg stage then everything should chance dramatically if this is ANYTHING like it was in the past. I go CRAZY when I get pregnant, I've read it's because of the extra blood flow to the genitals, haha I hope I get to find out, poor DF LOL

I just got a call from reprogenetics in NJ, the lab that will be doing our PGS and they said they just heard from my embryologist who confirmed we'll have samples to screen. That just boosted my confidence so much! T me it means my embryologist is confident we'll make it to day 5 blasts yay!!!

So today's report was 6 embryos (we lost one :( ) 4 of a very good grade of A's and B's and 2 not so good, one is a C and one CD. So more praying and more hoping :)

I don't get a report tomorrow but I get one Sunday and that should be of what we have to biopsy


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## Breaking Dawn

Bliss...so exciting congrats those are great embies!!!

Yay!!!


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## Briss

gingmg, I like your approach -" there is nothing that is going to happen that I cannot handle"! It must be such a wonderful feeling to know there is a life (or two) growing inside of you. Hoping and praying that everything goes well. When is your first scan? 

melly, I think you can have sex normally until ET, after that I'd put the sex on hold until 3 months pg :) are you doing FET this cycle? My DH does not drive so he is no help whatsoever in that respect. when I crashed it was actually on his side and he said it was OK to get through, so hopeless :) 

Breaking Dawn, so exciting to be starting your FET cycle! are you going to be taking any medication or is it going to be completely natural?

BBbliss, great news that 6 embryos are still going strong! such a stressful time to be hoping and getting these update reports. you will get through this! but so far so good. 

afm, our car rental agency said we could keep our car and we just need to fill in some report when we return it. obviously they did not see the extend of the damage. DH did some magic with a sticky tape and it almost looks presentable, minus a large hole in front :) We did not use the car yesterday I just did not feel like driving at all. we enjoyed the view from the local tower and its rotating restaurant. We are moving to Rotarua today to explore mud pools and gaisers. It's raining outside, do not feel like getting out actually but we must check out of our hotel. somehow this vacation is not working out as good as I hoped. we are still jet lagged and do not feel like doing much. I enjoy the food though after starving myself for 2 months :) but I can see my waist expanding rapidly...

there are so many chinese people living on the island so no shortage of acu and reflexology and prices are reasonable so I have been enjoying massages :)


----------



## gingmg

Bliss - that's great news so far!


----------



## Blythe

BBBliss - this is such great news. i hope everything else is going ok too and your daughter not causing you any extra stress! Its so good to hear that things are all going in the right direction. 

Briss - I'm sure once the jet lag and tiredness goes you will really start having a great time. I am glad you are enjoying some massages whilst you are there. The mud pools sound cooli would love to be there!

Breaking - i hope the CD3 appt goes well and you have a clearer idea of when the transfer will be taking place - so exciting

a question for you ladies

i am obsessing about what to do immediately after ET.do i walk to the station [about 20 min walk] or get a taxi home? what if the taxi goes over bumpswill it dislodge egg? Would a long walk = egg coming out? This is the type of crap that keeps me awake at night but there are serious questions? 


AFM - i am desperately hoping AF turns up today. Having done BCP for 21 days and Buserelin for another 8 days i am due but no signs, other than an angry spot on my chin. My scan is weds and if no bleeding they will probably send me home for another week to keep DR. I am going for acu today so i will see if they can needle any points that may help bring on period. Although through a combination of their limited english, my non-existent chinese, and their limited understanding of IVF* i doubt this will happen.

*i say limited understanding following on from the other week when i was explaining at length my protocol and the DR phase. After talking for about 4 minutes and telling her what bit i was doing, she looked at me quizzically and asked "so have they taken your eggs yet?". i felt like walking out.

i think what i really need to do is just relax and give up trying to control stuff - things will happen in their own time.etc etc etc BUT it is really infuriating.


----------



## Briss

Blythe, the embryo wont come out. at least that's what I was told, I wanted to pee quite badly during ET and only managed to stay still for 5 min before rushing to the bathroom I was so scared I will pee it out :) well not literally but you know I was sort of making push out movements after waiting for so long and yet the embryo was still there (we know that cos of the chemical) also after ET I took a train and tube back home from wimbledon and it was fine. but after that I stayed on my sofa a lot of the time and did not do much at all. 

I can totally understand your frustration over the chinese doc, when I was going to my previous doc all the way to Uxbridge every weekend it was quite frustrating to realise that she probably did not understand me and as a result did not treat me correctly. all that terrible acne I got was definitely from the herbs/acu. 

I would not recommend doing herbs now, just acu and I think as long as you feel relaxed during acu it should be fine. I'd definitely avoid tummy area though. 

afm, we are arguing like never before, at one point it got so loud the hotel security was called... :( I've already tried to book my return flights at least twice cos I just cant take this anymore. it was supposed to be a great holiday that I was looking forward to for months! why is everything so shitty last few years, even a simple thing like holiday is turning into a nightmare. and we got a storm today and tomorrow, very strong wind and constant heavy rain :(


----------



## Blythe

Briss - I'm so sorry to hear that you have been arguing. You have had a really really difficult few months on top of a very testing time in your life. This holiday must be about you trying to get a break from this. Please don't look at flights home.Could you perhaps spend a couple of days away from your DH and go swimming, go and buy something lovely to wear, just get away from everything familiar including your DH. 

A day or two away from him with a couple of nights rest may be what you need to get this break back on track. Remember, you need to come back to the UK rested and ready for getting pregnant, so this is your time.


----------



## melly2

Briss: I'm sorry you're fighting and now that's affecting your vacation. I don't really have any words of wisdom, but just try to enjoy your vacation. Rotorua has a lot of neat steam baths that we enjoyed, as well as the geothermal parks like Wai-o-tapu. It was really neat; but I love that kind of stuff. 

Bbliss: sounds like our embie biopsies are at the same place. They sent mine to NJ as well. I should hear back this week. 

Technically, I am now in my transfer cycle. I'm on BCP to keep from ovulating, and then we'll prepare my lining for the transfer.


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## Breaking Dawn

Briss...so sorry for the troubles you're having...hoping that tomorrow will be brighter and better!

Blythe...the embryo will not come out...it's all cozy in there!

Melly...so excited that we are both in out FET cycles!


AFM ...had cd3 appt today. I'm going to be on a natural cycle for now, which means I go back on cd10 and they will want to measure progesterone and estrogen as well as lining. I will then go back again to make sure I ovulate, based on hormones and lining if everything is on track I will transfer on cd19.

Should I need meds to assist hormones and lining then I may be put on estrace and progesterone then transfer could be cd19-23 based on how many days I need to take them.

So...I'm glad we have 5 day period which transfer will happen. I hope it's cd19 bc that is a Monday and I had planned to take that week off.


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## BBbliss

Briss I'm so sorry you are having problems on vacation. I've had that happen to me with an Ex and I know how it feels


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## Breaking Dawn

Bliss...did you get any more info on your embies?!


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## BBbliss

So much has happened these past few days. My recovery has been very slow after ER and I think it's partly emotional from problems with my DD. her dad come and took her car for not behaving and she had a fit, I had to cancel my trip to key west and stayed behind to watch her and take her to school and work. My DF had to go without me as I insisted, his mother went with him and they had a relaxing wknd. 

I got a call yesterday that from my six embryos only one had survived to blast and today is day 5. My dr. Called me this morning and said since we only have one he doesn't recommend doing the biopsy and PGS because we'd have to freeze and thats another step that could affect the embryo and just go ahead with a fresh transfer. So after all that they called me to come in in about an hour to "talk" to the Dr. I thought we did talk and now that's making me think there could be another turn. 

Pray for my little blast girls... 

I'm just taking one day, one call at a time


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## Blythe

BBbliss - thinking of you and your little blast and praying that all goes well for you. I'm so sorry that you did not get away.it sounds like you have had a tuff few days. :flower::hugs:


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## melly2

Bbliss: Thinking of you! I hope and pray everything works out with this embie.


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## Jazzbird

BBbliss - thinking of you too and praying for your embryo. 

Hope things with your daughter settle down - it must be so hard going through ivf with all that stress. 

Xxx


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## gingmg

Bliss- praying for your little embryo and sending positive thoughts. One step at a time. You can do this. We are all here for you.:hugs:


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## BBbliss

I love you girls, thank you

I was right, yet another turn but I trust my team. I asked DF to meet me at the clinic and we had a meeting with the DR and embryologist who decided to come in talk to us. Given all our options,statistics and personal opinions from the experts, at this time it was decided my uterus is not ready or receptive at the moment so we'll go ahead and do a cryo cycle. He admitted for the first time, I think he didn't want to get my hopes to hight in the beginning, but he said my results were phenomenal and I produced 8 eggs that all fertilized and most patients my age only produce one or two. He also said if this one doesn't work we can do it again. I was afraid he would not want to because by then I could be almost 45. I still do have confidence my body has done well and I'd try again. From everything I have witnessed and read on other threads and blogs, the results I've had so far are could have been the equivalent to a lot of others of any age. 

I have a picture of my embryo they gave me, it's a life and a promise and I'm going to hold on to that


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## Breaking Dawn

Bliss...you are so strong and i admire your positivity. 

It sounds like you have had a rough couple days....sending positive vibes that your embie stays strong.


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## melly2

Bbliss: That sounds like a good plan, and stay positive. My grandma had her last child at 46, so this is still very possible for you.


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## BBbliss

Thank you girls, 

Melly, I agree :) 

This really has been quit a week and I wish I could have had one (problem) at a time but everything is happening all at once, but ging even said, God doesn't give you more then you can handle, I just decided to stay positive.


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## gingmg

Bliss - I admire your strength and courage. I have huge faith in your little embie and I am glad you would try again if needed. Sounds like its been a lot lately, and also sounds like you are taking it all in stride. I so admire you! I agree you have outstanding chances. What about freezing on day 3? Out of my 8 embies only 3 would have been good on day 5. Obviously I transferred 2 on day 3 but only had one other one on day 5 that we froze. Hang in there chica! This WILL happen for you.


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## BBbliss

Ging, thank you so much. Both my Dr and his embryologist both are of the strong opinion that only the strong survive day 5 and an embryo that does not do well in the lab past day 3 would not be a viable embryo in utero either. Otherwise I would have had 4 that were still strong on day 3. I forgot you also had 8 and I was curios to see if you had any to freeze. I think it's the first time you say it. It must be comforting to know your have a little one frozen just waiting for you :)

I thought about you yesterday when I was leaving the clinic there was a lesbian couple in the waiting room :)

How far exactly are you? When do you go for an u/s? I'm so excited for you and make sure you come running to tell us if you have one or two in there ;)


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## Breaking Dawn

Hello ladies...

I think it's pretty quiet here bc we are all in "waiting zones "

Waiting for the next step, for u/s, for RE appt....etc

Afm...I'm waiting for cd10 appt on saturday.


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## melly2

AFM: Received my results from the genetic testing. Of the 11 "healthy" looking embies, 6 were chromosomal normal (3 boys, 3 girls). Wow...I must say, I'm happy I got the testing because that was nearly half the bunch that would have most likely ended up in a miscarriage. Now...we start fattening up my lining and getting ready to do a transfer.


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## melly2

Another update: Just got an update from my RE. We will not transfer until April 25th. This will give me plenty of time to prep my body; also, it'll avoid having a Christmas baby. So, I guess now I'm just in a hurry up and wait mode.


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## gingmg

Melly- great news. What a relief to know which ones are normal, you won't have to feel how I do now, waiting, waiting, waiting. 

Breaking - hope the time starts to fly by.

Blythe how are you?

Briss-hope you are enjoying your time in NZ and that everything got better.

Bliss-i am happy that there is another one but have a feeling we would end up needing to go through all of it again anyway.

I'm OK. Just waiting and scared. When I see melly's statistics that half were normal out of the 11, makes me wonder about the three I had. I'd like to think my abnormal ones just died in the lab and the three I have are the good ones, but only time will tell. This is just a very scary time. Have to wait another 2 weeks for a scan to see a heartbeat and no more labs in between. My only symptom is no period so its hard to believe everything is ok. Was told to stop the progesterone and estrogen so that's scary too and it doesn't help to be on this website and see other people continue through the first trimester. But I am trying to trust my body and doctor and to be honest am happy to be off hormones, it is the first time since August. I don't mean to complain, I am sooooooo happy just sooooo scared as well. I see other people on here that show up to their first scan and there is no heartbeat. I now try to limit where I read to only my few certain threads. I will feel better, I hope, soon. Going to yoga tonight, hopefully that will help.


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## melly2

Ging: I can totally understand your hesitation, but nothing is definite in this world. Who knows, my body may reject the healthy embies, so I'll be going through the same waiting game when we finally transfer. My mind has a way of playing tricks on me too, so it'll be torture. I assume that mother nature knows what she is doing, so I think going off the hormones is probably a good thing. I think you need to let nature take over and enjoy this pregnancy. ;-)


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## BBbliss

Melly, that IS great news! It gives you so many options! 

Ging, celebrate where you are right now, you deserve it... This worrying is natural but you should still feel the magic time you are going through right now. I want the best for you :)

Now, AFM!!! OMG girls listen to this! I just got a call this morning from my nurse that today we had TWO embryos to freeze!!! I guess there was another lagging behind in progress that he preferred not telling me about but today it looked good enough for freezing! This is such great news we are so happy. This just makes our chances 100% better now. 

Btw, a large study just came up on a medical journal where they observed over fifteen thousand women going through IVF and the percentage of normal embryos by age. My dr showed it to me yesterday and we went over my age only, so for a 44y woman every embryo has a 12% chance of being genetically normal. So those are my odds but I'm still happy today :)


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## gingmg

BBLiss- this is great news! I am so happy you have 2!!! 

I don't mean to sound ungrateful or that I am not happy, because I am over the moon!! but I will feel 100% better once I know there is a heart beating, and until then I guess I try to stay busy.


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## melly2

Bbliss: That's GREAT news! So happy to hear that the little one snuck in at the last minute...maybe that one is the real fighter!


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## BBbliss

Melly that's a great way to look at it ;)


Ging I didn't mean to sound as if you are not happy either. But a bit of wording will always be a part of being a mother. I remember she. I was pregnant I would even count and time the movements on third trimester just to make sure she was still alive and then when they are born you check to see if they are still breathing. Just easy into this part of motherhood and know its only normal so you don't drive yourself crazy. It will all turn out fine. You'll see ;)


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## Breaking Dawn

Melly...wow that is great 3 girls and 3 boys...50/50 split....wipp you be randomly selecting which one to transfer. Apr 25 will be here before you know it and you'll have nice healthy lining :)

Ging... sending positive vibes :flower:

Bliss...OMG. that is amazing news. I'm so happy for you :dance:


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## Jazzbird

So excited for you both Melly & BBbliss! 

Ging - really feel for you. I know I haven't been through ivf but I was terrified in the early days. I read all the same threads - blighted ovums, molar pregnancies etc. But miscarriages can't be stopped; there is nothing you can do. Can you do some yoga? If you eat well, sleep well and keep stress levels low you will give yourself the best chance. 

I think you have something like a 90% chance of the pregnancy being successful. That's a great statistic. Would you pack an umbrella if the chance of rain was just 10%?

As BBbliss says, the worry doesn't stop and BBbliss is now worrying about her teenager. It's part of being a mum. 

Try and relax and start looking at maternity wear for autumn


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## Briss

BBbliss that's a miracle! The second embryo is a survivor! 

Melly, excellent news on 6 perfect embryos! Did they recommend anything for your lining?

AFM, I read all your posts but hard to respond properly on the go. We made up, just about but it's still very fragile and I feel my anger growing every time he says the wrong thing. Nz is fantastic though a bit cold so can't really show off my summer clothes its just jeans ...


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## melly2

Briss: happy to hear that you're enjoying NZ and that you made up. Enjoy the rest of your trip!
Yes, I'm on a full transfer schedule for the next four weeks; a whole litany of stuff to fatten up the lining. I start Lupron on Friday, and then proceed for a week, and then take Medrol, progesterone shot, and estace. I can't wait for this to be all over, because I'm not a fan of taking all these hormones and meds; just feel like my body is off. My transfer will now be April 18th.


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## Blythe

i went for my DR scan today and i still have a thick triple layer lining and a cyst. Very disappointing and i have already had enough of these stupid needles and stupid drugs. i hate my body - why is it doing the opposite of what it is meant to do.

i asked the nurse if it might be cancelled and she said they could drain it so "all is not lost yet". 

i have to continue with the buserelin for another 8 days and then return for another DR scan.


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## gingmg

Blythe- drain the cyst or lining? I don't understand. I am sorry it wasn't the scan results you were looking for. Sounds like they aren't giving up on the cycle so you shouldn't either! On the bright side, it's great news you make triple layer linings!


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## Blythe

Thanks gingmg. I'm just vexed that I cannot move forward yet. They suggested draining the cyst. 

I'm just now praying for my AF to turn up. I need to listen to IVF meditation and hand over control....it's been a few days since I listened to it and I'm a ball of stress. 

I hope you are feeling ok.....I know it's a stressful time for you too. :flower:

I hadn't thought about the positives of my lining so good call :)


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## gingmg

Meditation CDs were sooooo helpful for me. And the gratitude journal helped too, forced me to think and write about the things that were going well. Do whatever you need to do to ease your stress, I know this isn't easy.:hugs:


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## Breaking Dawn

Blythe...sorry for the cyst....i had one too on my cd3...and it disappeared...absorbed by my body. 

I too was really upset. ....but keep faith! 

Melly...so you are on a medicated FET cycle? 

I'm on natural...no meds...will learn more on sat at my cd10 appt.


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## Briss

Blythe, I am very sorry about the cyst, there are different types and some they can deal with. I had one egg retrieved from the ovary that had a cyst. There are also estrogen cysts which can grow and eat up all your stims so they need to understand the nature of your cyst. 

why was the lining part of bad news? generally triple layer is the best you can get.


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## Blythe

Because I'm down regging so they are looking to shut everything down and fir me to have thin lining. 

Hope NZ is amazing :flower:


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## melly2

Breaking: Yeah, this is a medicated FET. Not thrilled with all these meds, but I guess it is what it is. My boobs never went down to their "normal" size after AF...I look like I have preggo boobs.


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## Breaking Dawn

Melly...i wonder why some ppl have medicated FETs...and why like me...some dont.

I know my dr mentioned that I have regular cycles....ao maybe that's why..?!

So excited for your Apr 18th FET !!!


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## melly2

Breaking: Some say it's higher success rates, but it can be debated either way. Probably also since I have a history of being inconsistent with cycles, it's better for them to control it a bit more. Either way, these hormones are making me into a huge BIIIIIAAATCH, and it doesn't help that we have a huge product launch we're in the middle of at work. I'm starting to feel sorry for the people I work with because I've been very snarky and I yelled at my husband for taking a bite out of my turkey burger. I need to chill out.


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## Breaking Dawn

Well I guess I will find out on Saturday how this natural cycle is going....if my lining and blood work look good or if they want to add estrace!


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## melly2

Breaking: Actually after reading up more, the success rates are about identical. I think they most likely did this option because they have more control over my cycle, and since it's more expensive, and my insurance is footing the bill, then they can easily make that call without charging me more. I'm sure if I was paying for it, they would have asked my preference.

Personally, I would have preferred the natural cycle myself.


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## Breaking Dawn

Oh ok..thx for checking that for me.

I think that makes sense....bc both my re and nurse said natural bc in regular....and that was in 2 separate conversations. 

2 more days until my cd10 appt....hoping my lining is good. fx...i really want to transfer on the 31st!


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## melly2

Good luck! I was hoping to be on the same cycle as you, but I guess not... :-( I'll be about 18 days behind.


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## BBbliss

Some people just need the extra hormones, I know my lining is always thin, more so now and I've never had my progesterone tested on my LP so I take all the help I can get to get me ready. 

You know what I was thinking, I don't even mind the shots and pills and u/s, bloating, headache, constipation... I know it's all for a VERY good reason and never before have we been this able to be such participants and co-creators of life like right now, when all this is over, years from now it will feel like a blink of an eye... I remember when I was pregnant some 18 years ago I was prescribed strict bed rest for three months and looking back now I can hardly remember it. :)


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## Breaking Dawn

Bliss...thanks..as always for your positivity :)

You're right...when all is done..this is a little tiny bump on the road map if our lives!


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## melly2

Bbliss: You're right. It's hard for me to give up control of my body; it's just something I struggle with. In the grand scheme of things, it's all relative and I suppose I should embrace my new boobs (and other side effects). Women pay good money for these things, after all. ;-)


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## Breaking Dawn

Melly...i jus saw your previous post.

Yes i guess we won't be FET buddies...but you'll be right after me and hopefully we'll be bump buddies!


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## gingmg

Breaking- good luck at your appointment!


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## Blythe

Hi Ladies

Breaking - hope your appt goes well today :flower:

i found out yesterday my cyst is one of the bad ones so i am preparing mentally to have the cycle cancelled.

i wish i could have just done what you girls have done and go straight to stims following BCP. i must have been trying to ovulate and then the cyst formed due to the buserelin.possibly. The cyst is releasing lots of e2 so my levels are far to high.

all i can hope for is a bleed which i don't have any signs of at all just loads of ewcm :(

i have been told to double the dosage of buserelin and then i return for a further scan next thurs so that gives me 5 days to bleed.

i have tried parsley tea, acupuncture and accupressure on the spots that apparently can help bring on a period. But i think they only work if the period is late and if my body is still trying to ovulate i don't think it is going to happen.

if i started bleeding today i would go and snog the first stranger that crossed my path

i guess if they cancel i can rebook but I'm loath to try again given my bodies response unless they try a different protocol i guesswe will see.


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## Briss

Blythe, I am very sorry that things are not going right at the moment. Did they explain what caused the cyst? you do not usually develop these cysts as far as I recall so it must be due to the meds. what does buserelin do? i thought you are not supposed to be ovulating while being suppressed? does it mean that it did not work and your body was trying to ovulate as normal? sorry for the questions I am still confused as to how the long protocol works. 

did they tell you that AF will somehow help with the cyst? these functional cysts usually go away on their own in a normal cycle but not sure how it works while on meds. I am sorry I do not know how to help here. what did the doc say? please do not be discouraged I think cysts are very common. during my first IVF my estrogen levels were high and they also thought I might have a functional cyst so it happens. I wish they knew how to correct this situation. maybe ask on other IVF forums I am sure lots of women have gone through something similar and will share their clinics approach which might be helpful. 

afm, have been spotting for the last few days, really annoying cos I do not usually spot before AF unless something is wrong. still, spotting did not stop me enjoying mineral hot pools! it was heavenly!


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## Breaking Dawn

Blythe...I'm so sorry that this cyst is causing problems.

As Briss mentioned..im interested in knowing more.

From what I know burselin is like lupron, it's supposed to suppress your follies and as a result stop ovulation. 

I hope this resolves itself and you can continue on with this cycle. :hugs: 

Briss..ugh spotting is no fun. But the hot mineral water pools does sound heavenly...glad to hear you are enjoying yourself.


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## Blythe

thank you very much for the replies - its so good to be able to just to tap out whats on my mind. its such a frustrating upsetting process for me that just telling someone else makes it feel better when its not going my way

i really don't know too much about it but i think my body is very much trying to ovulatei have had ewcm for days now and my body is just fighting the suppression. Obviously i have read lots on google now but the more i read the more confusing it is to me. 

i can only hope the extra dosage will help suppress it and get my period going. i will see what my acu doc can do later today although he seems familiar with the stimming/egg growing bit but not the suppression phase. In my blind panic i went into another acu place local to where i work and asked the girl behind the counter if there was a doc available to see me about trying to get my period going as i was doing ivf and my lining was still too thick to start stims. she looked totally confused and so i said IVF, she then said, IVM?, no IVF, ITV?, no IVF, IVG?, no f**king IVFbabies, eggs. I even cupped my hands and mimicked a pregnant belly. she said ahhhh, you are pregnant. I settled for a £10 chair massage.

Briss - i am sorry about the spotting.some months i used to get it, others noti had no clue what caused it. The mineral pools sound wonderful. I hope you are both having a really great time out there and not thinking about work etc.

Breaking - thank you :flower:


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## gingmg

Blythe I am so sorry to hear about the cyst. I hope you are able to shake your lining free somehow. I don't know anything about those kinds of cysts so I don't have any advice. I hope the higher dose of meds does the trick. This must be so frustrating. Don't give up!
P.s that story made me laugh about trying to explain ivf to that woman.


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## Breaking Dawn

Blythe....you have such a wonderful spirit and sense of humour,....I always find myself laughing out loud(!!!) at something you've written bc you have such a real and honest but funny way of describing things that I can relate and think omg I can totally see myself thinking, doing or saying that. 

The two comments below had me laughing at the REs office while I waited for my appt :haha:



Blythe said:


> if i started bleeding today i would go and snog the first stranger that crossed my path




Blythe said:


> she looked totally confused and so i said IVF, she then said, IVM?, no IVF, ITV?, no IVF, IVG?, no f**king IVFbabies, eggs. I even cupped my hands and mimicked a pregnant belly. she said ahhhh, you are pregnant. I settled for a £10 chair massage.


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## Breaking Dawn

Update ..cd10 appt...

Well the natural FET is turning into medicated....my lining is not where it should be, probably bc my follies are small and I've not got enough estrogen to thicken the lining. 

So, the RE is going to review my blood work and I will either take estrace orally or be given the patch.

So this means that I will not be transferring on march31 or April 1... It will be later that week. 

I booked a mini getaway at a spa....so we can just enjoy some time away after the transfer! I'm going to readjust those dates now....


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## gingmg

Breaking- sounds like the medicated cycle is the way to go then. Hope you can change the dates of your spa. It will be here before you know it.


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## melly2

Breaking: does this now change your transfer date? I have my first transfer ultrasound next Monday to see how my lining is growing. I'm very curious how this turns out. 

Blythe: ugh...what a bummer about the cysts. 

Briss: Not to get excited or ahead of myself, but have you ever considered implantation bleeding? It's not out of the realm of possibilities.


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## Breaking Dawn

Ging..yes I've got to go medicated now!

Melly...so i will not be transferring on march 31....it will likely be later that week. so still within the dates they gave me....but later...rather than sooner.

I start climara (estrogen) patch tonight...I'm given the patch bc it is absorbed faster and improve my lining quicker. i go in on Saturday again for lining check. 

I'll find out then what day we will transfer. 

I've never had a lining issue before.. so kinda annoying it happens this time! 

Trying to stay positive! 

Goodluck at your lining check Melly!!


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## Blythe

melly2 - GL with your scan next week :flower:

Breaking - please do stay positive and i hope that the scan on sat shows a great thick lining.you can have mine if you want. Weirdly i have had issues with my lining in the pastthe one time i am told i have a big fat lining is the one time i don't want it. I have no doubt that this will work out for you :flower:

AFM - no sign of AF just loads of ewcm so unless a miracle happens in the next 3 days i am quite sure my cycle will be cancelled this week. But i just have to focus that i could still get pregnant at some point in the future and keep believing it will happen.


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## Briss

Melly, good luck with your scan! unfortunately implantation bleeding is just too far fetched for me to even dream. Things like that happen to other people not to me. I have no idea why I have been spotting maybe its due to all the travelling and constant stress of driving for hours. I do not know but its not good. I think this is the first time I spotted before af for so long. I am not even sure what should i put as CD 1. 

Breaking, hoping the lining will grow nicely. It could just be due to stim meds you were taking before. 

Blythe, it s really annoying that AF won't start one time you want it. If they cancel your cycle will they try to start off your AF and then do a different protocol? From my reading long protocol does not work for everyone and ladies reported various issues but then went on to have successful cycles on different protocols.


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## Breaking Dawn

Blythe...thanks for PMA. and that's how I feel the one time I need to have thick lining...its not..grrrrr! Our bodies can do strange things but that also works out for the best...your AF can still show up!

Briss....i think you're right...the stims threw off my cycle. it have no leading follies....so that means low estrogen..
Which means thin lining. I know spotting throws off cd1...in the passes I have just picked the day it was heaviest as cd1.


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## Briss

DH is convinces my spotting was due to a chemical. We will never know cos i did not test and tbh wouldn't want to go through the heartache of a chemical again. DH just thinks the only time I had spotting for long before AF was on my first IVF when I had chemical but then I was on progesterone so not sure if we can compare the two cycles. he wants to think his treatment is working :) anyway, AF is definitely here as it turned red today. somehow i thought it would be easy cos I am so far away from it all but not really am as depressed as always and the sight of babies (all around me, no idea why people are traveling with babies) is just too painful. This is our last day in NZ and I feel tired and depressed. time for some coffee and a nice cake I say :)


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## Breaking Dawn

Briss....coffee and cake sounds like a great idea! So does some great wine :)

I've started my estrogen patch....I've got two on my belly and I am to keep them on for 6 days....and then move to higher dose. I just really hope my lining looks good on sat.

I was so ready for march31 transfer....I booked my time off and even went ahead and booked a short staycation ...I've got to reschedule !


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## melly2

Briss: It is odd that you're spotting, makes me wonder if it was a possible chemical as well. That said, enjoy your last days in NZ over some coffee and cake. Yum!

Does anyone have experience taking Lupron with BCP? I don't have headaches but I am very moody and also, may dang breasts are so big. Also, it just seems like I'm putting on weight for no reason even though I'm back to working out like a mad lady and I eat very modestly, but now I'm even cutting out all breads and dairy to see if that helps. I'm just curious if anyone has had side effects from taking these two together. I can tell my body is protesting all these hormones.


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## Breaking Dawn

Melly....i took lupron on its own before stims....bc it has the same effects as menopause....you'll see things like weight gain...hit flashes...moods...etc.

Hopefully you're not on it too much longer!


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## Blythe

i spoke with a nurse today and she said that if lining/cyst still an issue on thursdays scan they would abandon the cycle and tell me to stop the buserelin. i would then wait for a bleed and start the pill again and buserelin on CD21 as before. i just think the same thing will happen again. i have seen other women with the same issue restart but start buserelin in conjunction with the pill so start it about CD 14 rather than CD21 and that seems to keep the cysts at bay. i suggested that to nurse and she said it would be started on CD21 and that i would need to discuss any other protocol with the doctor.

Im not impressed with the NHS system so far! she said if i wanted to see the doctor to discuss i could but it could take ages for the appt.i might just get what refund i can and then go to create. 

i think the main benefit of long protocol is that it is convenient for the clinic, not the woman. The protocols you have been recently following seem to have worked very well.


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## BBbliss

Hi everyone, sorry I've been MIA. I have so much going on, in-laws visiting this week, grandmother in ICU and I just come out of a 4day very intense job, that at the same time was the highlight of my career and I was thrilled with it... And of course the same DD issues. 

I read the posts quickly sometimes but never had time to comment, now I just kind of fell of the wagon. I hope everyone is doing well, what's the last word on the cyst Blythe? Did you ever get full AF Briss? Or did it all stay light and spotty? Remember you also were traveling and under stress, that could have had an impact too. Melly I want your boobs, LOL and Breaking I hope you don't get del aid again, isn't it frustrating? 

Afm, just got AF and start on BCP this Sunday and ad lupron on April 13 and go from there... Transfer is initially set for May 15th and I got pictures of both my embies in the mail, it also came with their grading and we have a 5AA and a 3BB.


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## BBbliss

Blythe, I'm so sorry to hear! Do what you feel comfortable doing, fallow your instincts. Also remember that every month your body will a different number of follicles and that it will act differently to medication and its never an exact science even a protocol that works one time may not work the next and vice versa. I hope all this gets sorted out and you can just start strait on your next cycle. Maybe we'll be doing transfers at same time :) we can hold each others hands( virtually) :)


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## Blythe

bbbliss - :hugs: thank you.you are absolutely right. it just seems like a lottery to me, particularly with the clinic i am with. i really loved the sound of your clinic and the team toothey really worked with you and closely monitored the cycle.

my clinic is an NHS one so the patient does not really have much say in how things are done. We are paying for the cycle and with our budget we do not have a choice of where we go so its either this one or CREATE. I am not really impressed with how they handled Briss's last cycle.

i think i will decide on thursday once i have established how much this cycle has cost me and if i do it again and get the same result, exactly how much £ we have lost. If the same thing happens again, we will still have all our stims and i will just need to get the buserelin as we brought all of the drugs up front.

To top it all off i just found my first grey hair.

I'm glad that your career has been going well but sorry to hear your DD is still being a pain.

Bbbliss - could you just confirm what CD of your cycle are you starting the lupron? is it CD21?


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## Briss

Blythe, you got your first grey hair at 41??? That's great actually. I started getting greys in my 20s... I am really not impressed with kings can you discuss your next protocol with a doc? Nurse would not know anything. As for create if you wanted to do a natural I've I d recommend them but I fear so.e of their docs are really not that great at stim cycles. Also their idea of mild stims is being criticised a lot but it works for those with good stats so may work for you. Do not compare yourself to my last cycle I have high FSH and mos clinics would not even take me on. 

Am off to Australia now ...


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## Breaking Dawn

Bliss...sorry to hear your grandmother is in ICU...on top of other stresses you have! so exciting that.you are moving on to bcp and lupron. !!!!

Blythe...the nurse did not sound very supportive..thats awful they are not putting your concerns first ! And..i started lupron on cd21...the cycle before stims. 
Lucky girl...only getting greys now...lol

Briss...enjoy OZ!!!!!!

AFM....got 2 estrogen patches on my belly....im hoping and praying that my lining thickens each day....and sat I find out how it's doing!


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## melly2

Bliss: Sorry about all the stress, but sounds like your off and running with the transfer cycle. There will be three of us right in a row who do transfers (a few weeks apart).

Blythe: Ugh! How frustrating. A grey hair now? Lucky you!

Briss: So jealous! Have fun in Australia! That's the next country on my to-do list.

Breaking: Get that lining growing...those patches will do the job.

AFM: I think all these hormones are causing a major flair up in my Fibrocystic breasts disease; hence the big achy boobs that won't go away. Actually, this concerns me as my aunt has breast cancer, and I was very fearful that all these hormones would do something destructive to my body, now I'm starting to wonder. I suppose the good news is that I go off BCP today, but I continue Lupron. By taking down the estrogen a notch, this may help my symptoms, I'm hoping. Me and estrogen don't get along very well.


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## Breaking Dawn

Thanks Melly....im really hoping that I'm getting good lining. 

If there was a way I could check it myself I would :haha:

Sorry to hear about the breasts issues. It might be helpful to get your boobs checked our once youre done ttc just to be sure there are no adverse reactions from the drugs.


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## BBbliss

Blythe, first gray at 41? You lucky girl! If I let all my grey grow out I'd def look like the baby's grandmother heheh

I agree we did get a very close monitored cycle and the people have been amazing, I was even given my dr's cell phone number and was told I could call even on weekends, but we also payed top dollar for it all since our insurances didn't cover anything. We would have had to pay anywhere but even if we are paying more, I still fell fortunate to have this team. You can't buy personality and kindness. We just decided not to think about the money at this point. 

I do start lupron on CD 21, and I know there will be estrogen patches, progesterone shots, baby aspirin again and medrol close to transfer. 

Melly, I hope there's nothing going on with your breasts, I know it can be scary. I was too, my mammogram showed calcification that was considered to be normal but I still was afraid all the hormones could make it become something else. The dr who read my mamo gave me the go ahead but otherwise I would have had to give up my IVF.


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## melly2

Bbliss: I'm just slightly ahead of your transfer cycle. On Lupron now, just finished my last BCP yesterday and then I start Estrace on Monday (first ultrasound) and then progesterone shots on the week of April 13th (those are fun...ugh). 

I decided to take DIM, which has helped me in the past as well as Iodine drops. Boobs are feeling much better today, actually. I don't know if this is wise or not taking this during a transfer cycle, so I will probably only resume taking the DIM for another week as I know I need estrogen to form a healthy lining (though DIM removes bad estrogen). I think iodine drops are okay to take though and some even recommend it during pregnancy. Anyone else take iodine drops?


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## Breaking Dawn

Ladies...
A girl in another thread I'm on shared an amazing surprise bfp story yesterday...it was so positive I thought I would share it here...

She has pcos with long cycles and has to take meds to ovulate and get her period ..otherwise she hardly ovulated and her cycles are long.

She had her last period at the start of jan...was on a non- medicated cycle so expected a long cycle length. in Feb she had ivf consult...RE said to call when AF comes and will start tests in may. He was concerned with her amh and she was not a good responder to meds. 
As of yesterday she still didn't have a period and she's on cd80. back on CD 50 her and I chatted that she had EWCM so maybe she was Oing really late...sometime after that she had her clinic do a beta which was negative. So she has been waiting for AF..since then.

Yesterday she told us she was going to do an IC she had at home...just for fun...this cycle was getting too long. Shortly after she posted a blaring BFP! Today her beta came back at 5000!!!

She had been through so much with not responding to meds. Deciding to go the ivf route...hearing bad news at her consult. And then this amazing surprise bfp!!


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## Briss

A close friend of mine just announced she has had a baby, she did not even tell me she got pregnant. It hurt so bad, just can't stop crying. Her dh is overweight and she aborted twins in the past and has all sorts of health issues and yet they got pregnant easily. Why not us?? Why the fuck it is never us?? I do not care about Sydney it just made it so clear that this misery is just never ending and there is no getting away from it, I was supposed to be pregnant with my third child now and my farther would have been 70 yesterday... I am so desperate for something good. It is so overdue

Sorry for my depressing post just really needed to get it out and you ladies are the only people I can share it with really


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## Breaking Dawn

Briss......don't apologize Hun. You're feelings are real and u need to vent !

I'm so sorry ...it really sucks when things don't go as we have them planned out. I too thought that I would be ttc #2 nw.....not still trying #1. And it especially hurts when we see others move on

:hugs:

Your journey is not over....you are on the right path.....it will happen for you !!


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## Blythe

Briss - I'm so sorry you have had that news, particularly on your holiday during AF.f**k her

my friend says that ironically its when we FEEL we have run out of strength, that we are actually at our strongest. i think you have lots of amazing things to look forward to in your future including becoming a mother. Im sorry it has not happened yet and i don't know why it is so darn easy for others and such a miserable exhausting journey for the rest. Its horrible now but it will get better.it has to right!

Have a good cry and i hope you can get out and enjoy the rest of your break.

:flower:


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## melly2

Briss: I'm so sorry you're feeling this way. I know...I always think about how it's not fair. However, I feel like it'll make me a better mother and appreciate being a parent that much more. I look at my sister who got pregnant by just looking at her husband (I swear), and how they ignore their kids and take them for granted. I will never be like that. I'm going on two years TTC and I've seen many others pass us by, but I feel that perhaps there is a reason for all this. I don't know...I can always hope at least. The world is definitely not fair, but when I think about this, then I think about my friend who died of lung cancer last year (she never smoked and was an active runner like me) last year at the age of 35, newly married, and never got to enjoy her life with her husband (she was diagnosed right after their honeymoon), let alone, ever becoming a mother. She wanted to be a mom, but instead spent her two years of married life fighting for her own life. I always thought, why can't some smoker get lung cancer and not her?!? Perhaps this will all be answered when we finally take our dirt naps...I don't know.

Breaking: Thanks for that story! What a great BCP! I love stories like that.


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## BBbliss

Briss, I'm so sorry you are having such a hard time on your vacation, I wish you could have had just a time away from everything TTC related. I can feel the sadness in your words :(

Breaking, thank you for sharing that story! I love stories like that...I have one too today! I just got home from a job and I worked with this guy friend of mine that he and his wife had been trying for a couple of years and had two failed ivf's last year and because they were working with an university clinic they had to take a break this past Christmas, when they went back in January to start over she was pregnant with twins! They lost one but she's 12 wks now and they are just over the moon! He did say what we have heard so many times " as soon as they took a break and relaxed, they got pregnant" I'm so happy for them, they really went through so much before this and she's only 34. 

Melly, sorry for the loss of your dear friend, so young with so much to still live for... Nobody is really guaranteed a long life and stories like that really puts things in perspective for us. I think about my own father who died at 45 same age I'll be this year and I always thought it was yearly but never before realized how young he really was. We do have to cherish and celebrate every moment and every person in our lives. Even if this TTC doesn't work out for me I still feel so blessed and fortunate for a wonderful loving and supporting partner I waited so long for. 

Ging, how are you? How do you feel? How far now?


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## Breaking Dawn

Bliss....what a wonderful story...especially after the stress of 2 failed ivf...gives so much hope that our bodies are amazing!


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## Blythe

My cycle was officially cancelled today. The cyst is about 3cm and my oestrogen levels were 1172 and i still have the triple layer lining nearly 6.8mm so there was no salvaging this cycle. I had the most wonderful young girl doing the scan and she really explained everything and we talked about options. I told her we had saved over the last 2 years for this and i was absolutely not going to do the same protocol again..given my clear ovaries before this cycle it would seem like madness to do the same thing again. She agreed and said she would talk to the doctor about next steps. 

so i will wait for the withdrawal bleed and then call them on the next bleed after that and if all is well i can go to stims without any of this DR business, so long as my cyst has buggered off. Instead of using buserelin i will be using Cetrotide (cetrorelix) in conjunction with the gonal f. I am happy [ish] with that approach.

the centre is next to the macmillan centre [cancer centre] so it did really help me put this in perspective, along with the stories of loss i read today on this thread. I feel utterly deflated as the adrenalin beforehand was running high for about 2/3 months. Now i just want to focus on getting my excess weight off and continuing with the acupuncture and maybe do some running too and really clear out the cobwebs.

i will be avidly following your updates about the transfers and keeping my fingers crossed that you will get your much deserved BFPs :flower:


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## gingmg

Briss-:hugs:

Blythe I am sorry about your cycle. I hope the cyst resolves quickly and that you can move along to try something else. Sounds like it was the wrong protocol for you. Have faith doing it a different way will provide the right results.:flower:

Bliss- I hope your grandmother is doing OK. Cheers to starting your cycle.

Melly and Breaking- getting closer!

I am OK. Just:coffee: for a scan next week. Everyday without blood is a good day. One day at a time.


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## Blythe

Gingmg. I'm looking forward to hearing if there is one or two. I hope that the scan gives you all the reassurance you need and you can really start enjoying this time. It's very nerve wracking fir you though. Have you been doing any yoga or meditation?


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## gingmg

Blythe- thanks. I am so grateful, but I have seen way too many people with missed miscarriages in their signature, so I know better than to think this is it. I havent done yoga in about a week, hoping to go later today after I sleep from this night shift. Or tomorrow. Or both. I always feel better when I go.

My mind/ body program is over. I really really loved it and met such a great group of women. I loved all the skills we learned too. I think it made a huge difference in how I handled my ivf cycle, it felt much emotionally smoother than all my injectable iui cycles. We have decided to keep the group going and meet monthly and try to follow the same structure as our formal groups. We have to decide if women who have tested positive can still come to the meetings, not sure how that will play out. I did tell everyone at the last group that they need to be honest with how they feel and not agree to something because they think they should or because they don't want to hurt anyone's feelings. I would hate to know that someone wasn't getting what they needed because they were afraid to speak up. I have a feeling we will decide its OK until out of the first trimester, so you have the support during the miscarriage risky time. I did meet one girl I know I will stay in touch with, so that's good.


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## melly2

Ging: I think you're approach is perfect; being cautiously optimistic. I know the first trimester is the scariest, but you are progressing along well, so this is all good signs. I've never been pregnant; however, I can only imagine that I would be the same way. I love the idea of meditation and yoga. That's a perfect balance of physical and mind soothing. I'm excited for your first scan!

Breaking: How is the lining coming along?

Briss: How is Australia? I wanna go!

Blythe: Super bummed to hear that the cycle is cancelled, however, it's better to get everything working perfectly before going down that road. I'm happy to hear that you had a good nurse who was helpful. I think changing protocol is a good idea, too.

AFM: nothing too new here. According to my FET calendar I'm *supposed* to get the Lupron period today? We'll see, I'm not convinced. My body doesn't give up periods very easily. Heh! I'm only on Lupron now (no BCP, thank god). Had lovely night sweats, but I'm always cold, so I actually don't mind them too much.


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## MimiMomma

Thanks for bringing this up. Acupuncture sounds like a great idea! I have used it in the past and it always made me feel amazing!


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## BBbliss

Blythe, I'm so sorry the cycle got postponed but like Melly said, it's better to have everything in older before going forward. This is a big deal and you need to be confident in your body. It will probably only be one other cycle away I'm sure you'll do better with a different protocol. I'm glad you were happy with the nurse this time, it does make a huge difference and I think you seam pretty clear with what you think is right for you. It will all be ok, you'll see :)


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## Breaking Dawn

Blythe...so sorry the cyst is causing issues and you had t cancel your cycle. At least you know what wrks and does t work for your body and can get a better cycle with a new protocol. Delays are frustrating but hang in there :hugs:

Ging....I can't believe youa re already at 7 wks. And your scan is so soon....so exciting!! 

Melly....did you start the lupron period yet? What's the next set after that?

AFM...had my cd17 lining check and it looks good...over 8.5...yay! My RE will review my u/s and b/w results today and either decide I'm ready ...which means FET on thurs....or he will want me to come back for one more lining check on Monday. :coffee:


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## gingmg

Breaking- YAY! this is so exciting, either way you are right around the corner.


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## Breaking Dawn

Thanks Ging!

So I'm back in tomorrow for a lining check and bloodwork. My RE likes to make sure that we are as close to post-O as possible before transfer.


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## BBbliss

Good luck breaking!!!! &#55357;&#56911;


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## melly2

Breaking: Good luck tomorrow! 

AFM: Never got my Lupron period. Not even a little. Not sure what that means, but I know my body, and I figured this would happen. Anyone else get a Lupron period?
Some family was in town last night, and we went out and I drank too much; horrible headache this morning. I will file this one under, 'not one of my better decisions'. I go in for my first baseline bloodworm and ultrasound for my lining tomorrow morning and I'm worried that my levels will be off especially after the booze fest last night. Ugh!

All that said, I have none of the Lupron side effects that so many complain about. I have increased CM. Go figure. I swear my body reacts opposite to the norm when suppressing ovulation.


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## gingmg

I bled after stopping BCP, but I don't think it had anything to do with the lupron? I think we all respond somewhat differently, so as far as the side effects, I think it varies. I don't remember having too many side effects from lupron either. And I don't think drinking can do anything to effect your hormone levels. Good luck at your scan! I hope it all goes well.


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## melly2

Hope everyone is doing well!

Breaking: how was your appointment?

AFM: baseline appointment today. Though they admit I fall into the minority of women who don't get their period after stopping BCP and starting Lupron, however, it's not a big deal either. All things checked out okay, so they're reading to fatten up the lining. I start Estradiol today and continue Lupron for two more weeks.


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## melly2

AFM: Well...crap. Blood work came back and my estrogen is elevated. Exactly what I suspected because of those damn BCP and god knows all the other hormones. So, now I have to go off the estradiol and continue on Lupron a bit longer and do another scan on Thursday to double check that my ovaries are suppressed. I was afraid this was going to happen. This will push out my calendar a bit as a result, but it is what it is.


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## gingmg

Melly- sorry it wasn't the news you wanted, but you are still sooooo close!

Breaking- how was your scan?

BBbliss, Blythe, Briss- how are you?


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## Blythe

Melly. I very much understand your frustrations. I'm sure those extra few days will being the oestrogen levels down. Like you I had lots of ewcm which I thought was odd when everything was meant to be shutting down! My levels were 2172 but today I started spotting so hoping everything will start going back to normal. 

Gingmg. All ok here. Pretty hungover all day and back to swearing off alcohol again!! I can't just have one drink and end up drinking far too much so all my healthy eating went out of the window today and I ate everything in site so now have food hangover too!

Gearing up for next IVF but feeling totally deflated about it all. Need to adjust my mindset and try and get positive about stuff :)

Hope you are managing ok in the run up to the scan. Is it this week?


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## Breaking Dawn

Hi ladies..

Blythe....sounds like my kind if hangover lol. Yes sending you positive vibes as you prepare for ivf :dance:

Ging...how was your scan?

Melly...sorry about the High estrogen levels...delays are so frustrating but trust me it flies by!!!

AFM...sorry ladies had a busy day and just talked to my nurse
So it's official..transfer on saturday morning.....all of a sudden I'm nervous!!!!!

I start a whole protocol of meds tomorrow : progesterone, baby aspirin, prometrium prednisone and I'm already on estrace patch.


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## gingmg

Breaking- this is so exciting!


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## melly2

Breaking: That's awesome!! So excited for you!

Blythe: I'm with you, I drank way too much this weekend. Probably didn't do my estrogen levels any favors. Argh!


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## gingmg

Blythe- sorry about the hangover, never fun, but I hope it was fun yesterday! Its always important to step away from a diet every now and then anyway. I'm sure after the disappointment of your last cycle, its hard to get positive again. But, you are going to try something totally different this time so there is no reason to think you won't respond well.


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## Breaking Dawn

Ging...Melly...thx!

I'm excited :)


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## melly2

Ging: When is your scan? This week, right?

I've been dwelling on my high estrogen. The nurse told me that I had high estrogen but low progesterone, which doesn't indicate that I've ovulated or attempting to ovulate, so it's a mystery problem. However, I swear it goes back to my fibrocystic breasts, and when they enlarge, they produce more estrogen. I need to tell the doctor this on Thursday, because they got at least a cup size bigger (most likely cysts). I'm just hoping this isn't some indicator of a bigger problem (no pun intended). I think the DIM is helping and I've been running and exercising like a mad woman knowing that excessive exercise drops estrogen substantially; also not consuming grains or dairy products...only white meat and greens.

Has anyone else had increase estrogen? Just curious how you all solved it.


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## gingmg

melly sorry you are dealing with this. I have no experience with high estrogen, so have nothing to offer. Yes my scan is Thursday. This wait is torture! I am so scared there won't be a heartbeat, I have no symptoms. Well just bloating and constipation. Just trying to keep myself grounded. No matter what happens, I can handle it.


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## BBbliss

Ging, maybe there will be two blueberries in there ;)

Melly, I have nothing to offer on the estrogen, but this is a very solvable problem I'm sure. Take the extra time to work hard and play hard while you can, hahah

Breaking, I'm 6wks away and I'm nervous, LOL you'll do fine and besides remember you have a back up plan :)

Blythe, you gave me a great idea! I need to get drunk soon, I need to relax and forget all my stresses lately, well I still have a few weeks to go. 

Afm, started bcp on Sunday and lupron on the 13th. It's count down time now


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## Breaking Dawn

Bliss...yay countdown...as soon as I started injections the time flew by.  

AFM...i have a great wknd planned. Sat is FET...sun/mon..take it easy but still go for walks etc. Tues-thurs spa staycation!!

No messages for me but I'm going get an exfoliating rub and facial and manicure!!! Nothing to intensive and "just in case" will let the therapist /technician know I'm possible pregnant!


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## BBbliss

Breaking, that sounds like a dream weekend :) that's really nice you'll be able to treat yourself like that. You deserve it!


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## Briss

*Breaking Dawn*, you weekend plans sound really good! best of luck with your transfer! 

*Bliss*, what are bcp and lupron for? is your FET going to be medicated? 

*Ging*, best of luck with your scan? I totally understand your worry after everything you have been through but so hoping it's going to be only good news from now on. 

*melly*, so annoying when hormones are letting you down I just hope it means a minor delay but hopefully this will give you time to grow good thick lining for the transfer. sorry for my ignorance, why do you need to get your ovaries suppressed for FET? as for increased estrogen, I do get it sometimes when I have functional cysts but it goes down on its own once the cyst dissolves 

*Blythe*, how is it going? I can see that you finally got your AF? when can you start your next cycle? I can totally relate to feeling deflated after a failed IVF but tbh I think it's the clinic's fault for not putting you on the right protocol. I know it's not easy to choose the right protocol but still they should know better. 

*afm*, thank you ladies for your constant support! I was actually very happy for my friend (deep down) but it's just a reminder that there is outside world where things happen differently and where people get what they want easily and why am I not allowed to step into that world is beyond me. I ended up going to Sydney opera that day and watching Carmen who died childless&#8230; I thought it very fitting. still, we had fantastic time in Australia and I would definitely want to go back and explore more of the country. one thing that really stuck with me about Sydney is the number of people exercising on the street. It's like everyone is either running or power walking, some even doing push-ups, I ended up overdoing it on gelato front cos it made me feel so inadequate. needless to say I put on half of what I lost before NZ. no regrets whatsoever, I really enjoyed the food. from now on I am going to try and just eat healthily but no extreme dieting. Clothes is still tight but I am going to concentrate on preparing my body for our next IVF and improving egg quality. avocadoes, here I come! 

My clinic finally found it in them to get me an initial appointment somewhere mid May which seems like ages away and moves me ever so closely to being 38. I really cant wait to start our next IVF (I honestly do not know how many IVFs it is going to take but I want to carry on for as long as we are able to so the sooner we can start the better really)

DH is due to repeat his SA but he is postponing it for as long as he can. I have to say that his treatment is definitely working, much more sex than ever before and very little nagging on my part is required. definitely more facial hair and aggression &#8211; I guess he did need extra testosterone. He had occasional beer/wine but I thought it was OK since we are on holiday and it's not like he was getting drunk every day so overall a bit of improvement on alcohol front. 

My ovulation is back to CD 11 which is annoying so I will be doing EPO next cycle. I am also back on fish oil, coq10, pregnacare, vitamin C after O, grapefruit juice. I decided I will not go back to Chinese herbs and acu but I will try to have more reflexology and massages 

I loved NZ but I am very happy to be back in London, I am such a city girl it's ridiculous but I seem to be only comfortable in big cities with lots of people and constant noise and tall buildings, so hopeless :)


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## Breaking Dawn

Briss....try not to worry too much about a few pounds while on vacation!!! that's when you can truly relax...and not worry about diets! May will be here before you know it...and you can get this show on the road!!!

Ladies...i wanted to get your opinion on something.

I can book acupuncture before and after my transfer, the dr will come to the clinic (he works with them). 

I don't know if should do it.....confused...here are all the things on my mind:

I stopped acu and TCM herbs before ivf...it was just too much all the appts...and moving to ivf meant I was going to trust in the medical process. so far...this process has been good to me..good eggs,..good fertilization..goos embies...and I've been as relaxed as possible bc I'm trusting this process.

I feel like bc i dont want to rock this boat...that has been good so far...i should just keep with the process and not do acu. .acu will mean getting to the clinic earlier...more coordination ..etc

On the other hand...acu helps transfer....so it can't hurt. 

Then I'm thinking let's just trust this process for this FET...if it doesn't work...we can try something new next time by adding acu.

Thoughts?!


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## Briss

Breaking Dawn, I think the whole point of acu is relaxation so if making additional app and coming in earlier etc adds some stress it kind of defeats the purpose. also, you have booked a wonderful weekend which should hopefully do the trick and help implantation


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## Breaking Dawn

Briss...thanks for saying that. 

I needed to hear it...i think sometimes I feel like i need to do everything out there that's available...ot I'm not trying hard enough...but you're right...and also I feel like it's a bit late to organize this..which will just add to my appt schedule stress. 

FX that we get out bfp and i won't need to think about acu next cycle!!


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## melly2

Breaking: I, too, have been thinking about acupuncture. However, my schedule at work has been crazy, and I didn't see much of a benefit of acupuncture for me. In fact, it was almost more stressful to leave work early and try to get to the appointment in time, and then when I was laying there I would dwell on how I could be better using the time. I relax by running, but that's just me, so I've been more focused on that lately. I think whatever works for you. If it relaxes you, then it can't hurt. If it's an added stressor, then worth reconsidering, IMHO.

Briss: Your vacation sounds great. Like you, I put some extra lbs. while over there, but the food was so good and I was on vacation after all. I'm glad you had a great time! I'm also glad to see that you have an appointment and you'll soon be starting the next IVF cycle! 

They suppress my hormones so they can control everything. I suppose in theory it sounds good, but it goes against what my body wants to do. I'll be honest, I've been in a real mood today because of my scan and bloodwork tomorrow. If it comes out elevated again, I will probably lose my sh*t! Seriously this morning when I was taking yet another Lupron shot (which I had insano hot flashes last night) I told my husband, "how much longer can I do this"? I'm one of those people who are well tuned to my body and I don't like feeling "off", which is how I feel. The collection process went fine, but now it's almost like my body is throwing a fit after the fact. There's a side of me that thinks I should go off everything for a few months (or more) and just do the transfer later. However, I told my husband I don't want to have a child much later, so if I push the transfer to a later month, I may end up canceling the whole goddman thing all together. Seriously...I'm to that point.

Sorry...I'm venting...I'm moody today.


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## Breaking Dawn

Melly...vent all you need. That's what we're here for...and sometimes you need to go thru the thoughts and emotions of what are we doing should we keep going. 

Have you thought about getting a second opinion on your protocol? I'm not saying you need to but just a thought/brainstorm.

Also there is a site where you can out your detailed ivf questions with protocols and outcomes and ask the dr what he thinks. I think it's called ivf authority / have a baby. It is dr Sher's blog and he answers questions on his blog. He is a well known RE in America (or at least that's what I've heard but I'm from canada)

you could ask him these are the meds this is the outcome...what does he recommend....you can then use this info to have a discussion with your current RE...ie..you did some "research "


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## Briss

ladies, what's your view on swimming while TTC? It's generally a gentle type of exercise good for your back but I wonder if it can dry up your CM considering the amount of chlorine in our swimming pools. also I wonder if swimming in cold water is good during TWW while we are supposed to be warm. I am generally always cold so I usually try to swim as fast as I can in order to keep warm in the swimming pool but I do enjoy swimming and badly need some exercise. Having said that I do not really want to do anything that can remotely affect our chances (which are almost nil anyway)


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## Breaking Dawn

Briss...i think swimming would be fine. but like you said I would be concerned with the water being cold. As we should keep as warm as possible.


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## gingmg

Briss- I would think swimming is ok.

Breaking- So close now! I wouldn't worry about the acupuncture. If it is something you would enjoy, go for it. If trying to fit it all in is too much, then skip it. You have such a lovely plan for afterwards!

Melly- I hope you are feeling a little better today. This is a crazy ride so I can understand wanting to get off sometimes, but this is just a frustrating time and will pass. Better times are coming.

BBliss and Blythe- How are you doing?

AFM- Scan went well. One perfect little baby. I can relax now.


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## Briss

ging, wonderful news!! congratulations!

afm, I did go to the swimming pool and actually water was not that cold so i think it should be fine.


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## Blythe

Gingmg. Amazing news. :happydance:


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## melly2

Ging: Congratulations!!! That's awesome news!! So happy for you...now you can take a sigh of relief. ;-)

Briss: I think you can swim, just avoid hot baths and water during your IVF cycle.

Breaking: Soooooo close!!

AFM: Good news! My Estrogen dropped...a lot. I was worried I had a cyst, but the followup ultrasound and levels proved otherwise today. I'd like to think it was my extra running that helped, but who knows really. I can now take Etrace and lower my lupron. This will only delay my transfer by three days, which is no biggie. It will be the Monday after Easter.

Good news all around today.


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## gingmg

Melly- This is great news!! You must feel so much better.


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## Breaking Dawn

Ging...congrats hun..so happy for you. I hope and pray that all us ladies follow in your path! Let's make this thread lucky!!
And you're right. I'm not going to worry about acu.I've got great plans to relax! 

Melly..fantastic news...so happy for you :). 

AFM...taking my meds.. each day brings me one day closer. and I'm trying to prep myself to not test until after 5dpt. And also not to get my hopes up.


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## BBbliss

I just wrote this big post with a nice message to everyone and I lost it!!!!!

Well, GING!!!!! Sooooo happy for you!!!! 

This was the most important one. 

Afm, not having a good week. Personal things I already mentioned before...


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## Briss

*melly*, how wonderful! huge relief, 3 days is nothing in the scheme of things 

*Breaking Dawn*, I know it's difficult but every book I read on IVF suggested to feel hopeful and positive after transfer it seems to help although obviously no scientific evidence just something doctors' observations over the years. Are you going to have a trigger shot? 

*BBbliss*, it's so annoying when you lose messages, happens to me a lot. I am sorry things at home are not as great they should be but it will change for the better, hopefully soon. 

*afm*, I had a very depressing dream today that I was looking after my friends' children&#8230;. I loved them like my own but when I woke up I felt terribly sad. 

waiting for IVF is a torture it is taking 5 months from the referral to the initial appointment and some say it may take 6 more months after the initial appointment until you actually start your cycle and since we already had 2 private IVFs I cant go private or I lose my NHS entitlement.


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## Breaking Dawn

Bliss...sorry that you are dealing with personal stress. hope things improve soon. 

Briss... ugh I hate depressing dreams..as i wake up in an awful mood and it's hard to shake. as for the wait for ivf...is there anything you can do to move it along? how many ivf are you entitled to on nhs? 

Thanks for the words of support...i know I will be hopeful tomorrow....and the days after. I guess I'm just worried...like in past cycles a bfn can be so devastating. No trigger bc i am doing a FET. So the embies are going to be thawed and transferred. Which means I can test early as 5dp5dt (ie 10dpo) and not worry about a trigger line. :)


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## Blythe

Briss - do private clinics inform your doctor of IVF cycles?


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## melly2

Briss: sorry it's taking so long. I hope they can speed things through once you have your initial appointment. It is a long waiting game; after discovering that my husband was infertile a year ago, I had to wait until January this year for my insurance to switch over to cover the IVF. I did enjoy the extra time with friends and drinks on the weekends, which helped. 

Bbliss: sorry to hear about the personal matters, I hope everything gets better soon. 

breaking: You are almost there!! Transfer tomorrow!

ging: So thrilled for you you. BTW: how far along did they say you are?

I'm adopting more of a stay positive attitude. I will accept the shots and hormones knowing that this is what I need for a successful transfer. After that, I will let my body take over (hopefully). ;-) Now that I'm on estrodial and a little Lupron, I'm getting headaches, but oh well. Work has been insane and will be for another month or two until our product launch (right in the middle of my transfer). I'm trying to add more yoga and meditation into my well-being practice because I need it right now.


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## Briss

I am only allowed one fresh and one frozen (very unlikely we will get anything to freeze though) cycles on the NHS but again subject to my FSH, but even if we have to self fund I am hoping that we wont have to pay for the meds which is half the price in stim cycles. 

I do not know if Creates informed my GP but my GP does know about IVf generally as I was doing some of the bloods there for free. but I signed the form that said I did not have 3 private cycles so I cant really lie about that in writing &#8230; 

I decided to up my vitamin regime and added Vitamin D, folate, myo inositol (for egg quality). I was also thinking about vitex, cos after doing my research I decided it was not for me but some say it improves egg quality so I thought about it again but in the end decided to go for myo inositol.


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## melly2

Briss said:


> I am only allowed one fresh and one frozen (very unlikely we will get anything to freeze though) cycles on the NHS but again subject to my FSH, but even if we have to self fund I am hoping that we wont have to pay for the meds which is half the price in stim cycles.
> 
> I do not know if Creates informed my GP but my GP does know about IVf generally as I was doing some of the bloods there for free. but I signed the form that said I did not have 3 private cycles so I cant really lie about that in writing
> 
> I decided to up my vitamin regime and added Vitamin D, folate, myo inositol (for egg quality). I was also thinking about vitex, cos after doing my research I decided it was not for me but some say it improves egg quality so I thought about it again but in the end decided to go for myo inositol.

I think Vitex can't hurt, I was taking it for a year before IVF; also was taking ubiquol, Royal Jelly, Omega, multi-vitamin, L-Argintine, Maca, and Primose Oil.


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## Briss

melly, I think a few ladies who did not have PCOS and ovulated normally reported that vitex screwed up their cycle, some even had anovulatory cycles on vitex. it just seems that it does not work for some and I am not sure if I should risk it before IVF. On the other hand it's not clear how long is the wait so maybe I could try it. cant decide but I think I will start with myo inositol. 

I am also thinking of cutting down on sugar and coffee but that's the hardest thing for me. myo inositol is said to reduce sugar craving so I am hoping it will help. I took up swimming and determined to make it a regular thing to improve blood circulation as part of my egg quality improvement plan.


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## Blythe

Briss - re Vitex - i am not a fan. i took it before for a couple of months and it messed things up for me. I ended up taking it again as it was in the fertiaid and it stopped me ovulating. There are a couple of ladies here who have taken the fertiaid and it stopped them ovulating for months. I think with vitex that if you have irregular cycles it can be a wonderful thing to take but with us girls with regular cycles it can end up messing things up. But - this is my experience and i see Melly had a good experience with it so its hard to say.

my IVF diet has been:
upping my protein intake - great for egg building etc and in H&B they have pretty healthy looking protein bars.just avoid the ones made with soy protein. I am going to make my own using whey protein powder.

eggs - i have them at least every other day

avocados - was having them every day up to ivf being abandoned but still eating them at least 3 x p/w

Brazil Nuts/Walnuts/Raspberries

i have brought some chia seeds and pumpkin seeds and sprinkling over salad in the evening.

Full fat milk

i have not cut down sugar/tea but maybe i will if i ever get to the point where i take stims but i have read that sugar = hard eggs. Should be a no brainer having read that to stop sugar intake but ITS SO HARDand soon there will be half price easter eggs in my local shop :(

Briss - where do you get your myo isotol please?

Breaking - thinking of you and hoping transfer goes smoothly

BBBliss - sorry you are having a rotten week. i hope things get better :flower:

I have a two week break from work and hope to shed some weight - all those avocados and the full fat milk combined with zero exercise has turned me into a fatso! i can see it mostly on my face which is looking at bit like the after shots on those apps where you get a normal picture and make them look fat and old by just the click of a button! vanity has kicked in and action must be taken!


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## Briss

Blythe, thanks! 

re protein, I am actually looking into increasing my protein intake. I checked my fatsecrets.com history and I was down to 30-40 gm a day, I hear it has to be around 70 gm. what was your intake? a few people recommended SOLGAR - VANILLA WHEY PROTEIN TO GO but I want to try to increase my food intake to make up the difference. I do love eggs! I am thinking of taking a couple of boiled eggs to work to have for breakfast daily. 

I started buying blueberries every day and snack on nuts and raisins

never heard of chia seeds. what are they? 

totally need to start drinking milk again. 

I never have breakfast, just my morning cappuccino (with chocolate) but I will try to replace cappuccino with proper breakfast: boiled eggs or porridge or muesli/milk or berries/yogurt and will just have my coffee on weekends. 

no idea what to do with chocolate, I am so counting on Myo-inositol to stop the cravings

re Myo-inositol, I have been in agony trying to figure out which brand to get for egg quality. women usually take it for PCOS and there are 9 different types of inositol but we need Myo-inositol form, to make it more confusing it is sometimes sold as just inositol. in the end I opted for SOLGAR brand but the dosage is disappointing each pill is just 500 so I would need 8 pills a day which is a nightmare so I coupled it with powder which I am going to add to smoothies and porridge or just drink on its own apparently it tastes sweet - Jarrow Inositol Powder, 227g, Vegan (227g, Vegan). I will start with 4 gm a day which seems to be what people are taking. 

also, Zita West recommends for egg quality: 4gm https://www.zitawest.com/buy/supplements/fertility-and-conception/inositol--folic-acid.htm but I think you need her prescription to buy it

There is also Pregnitude which is basically 2000mg of myo-inositol and 200mcg of folic acid. https://www.pregnitude.com/content/what-is-pregnitude but you can only buy it in the US. 

I take my 800 of folate with that as well but decided against adding Melatonin to this formula. it's a hormone, seems controversial, too many side effects but some research shows that it ameliorates the activity of myo-inositol and folic acid by improving oocyte quality https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20712264

I can totally understand the need to shake off some weight now and again, it makes wonders to one's self esteem if you succeed. still, I am more into egg quality at the moment so will have to rely on my swimming to keep my weight in check. I do not care about loosing weight but I do not want to put any more on.


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## Delphine11

I took Vitex last year (because of spotting) and I have mixed feelings about it. First of all, it seemed fine. It reduced the spotting and I didn't have any side effects or issues with it.

BUT after maybe 3 cycles it made me miss my AF for the first time for years and years. I found that terrifying. Now I'm TTC, the last thing I wanted was my AF disappearing (unless I get pregnant, of course!). So I reduced the Vitex (you're not supposed to stop it suddenly) and then stopped it altogether. I waited and waited and I felt pre-menstrual symptoms but nothing happened. 

I finally had an AF more than two months later, but it was the *worst* AF I've ever had in my life. I don't know how to describe it without TMI, but I bled very, very heavily and it lasted for weeks. That's the one and only time that's happened to me, and I have to deduce it was all caused by the Vitex. I know in your 40s your cycles starts to change but this wasn't like that. It was a sudden change. I feel that the Vitex messed my hormones up.

I think Vitex suits some women fine, but is bad for others. There's no way to know without trying it. Weigh up the evidence and make your own decision. Personally, I wish I had never taken it.


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## Blythe

Delphine - thanks for your input. yes i am in agreement that i too wish i had never taken it. i remember when i started TTC and it was bandied about like some miracle cure, as so many things are. it did not agree with me at all. Of all the crap i have taken, and i have taken the lot, this was the one i would not touch again with a bargepole.

I hope your cycles are back to normal and i hope it will not be long before you get your BFP :flower:

Briss - the chia seeds are one of these wonder foods, gywnie may even have mentioned them on her site 'GOOP' so do i need to say anymore! To be honest they are tiny and tasteless so i sprinkle them on stuff - i think i got them to put in smoothies/juices but I'm just not in the mood to do those at the moment - the washing of all the equipment afterwards puts me off.

I'm not sure what my protein levels were but i could certainly go for days and not eat meat. i know what you mean about trying to get your protein intake from diets but the bars/shakes can give you 20g and they are very convenient. Also with the shake i get my FF milk intake too - i have never been a milk drinker so i struggle to down it but if it is strawberry flavour i can handle it :) i have also had the whey protein vanilla one - i have 4 pots of powder [choc, vanilla and strawberry] and they are delicious.

i am off to my favourite health food shop later today so will look out for inositol products. I have been having acu again weekly for a couple of months now but no herbs. Not sure if it making any differencerecently bit off all my nails again and put on weight but think all down to the IVFso much preparation and such a big let down. still i feel better now although my nails are still looking appalling :(

my friend is back at work following a year of maternity leave. they are starting again in may [turns 40 in july] and they are planning for a feb/mar birth - all done with certainty. i hope very much it does happen quickly as i would not wish this crap on anyone but i have to say i am bracing myself for the announcement already - i cannot imagine being told this news and not breaking down in front of her.


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## Blythe

ps - i got the chia seeds and my protein powder from H&B. I tend to steer clear of their own brand vitamins but i love the other stuff they sell


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## Breaking Dawn

Just wanted to let you ladies know that my transfer went well this morning !

We were told the embryo looked good..and the transfer itself was very smooth. 

We got to watch on the screen....and we got an u/s picture to keep of the embie tucked in its place. :)

Now stick little embie....pls stick ....


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## gingmg

Breaking- congrats on being PUPO!!! I am so glad everything went well! Enjoy your spa getaway. Stick embie stick!!!!


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## Breaking Dawn

Thanks Ging !

I'm embracing some positivity .....although I'm not quite at feeling pupo....but more like..I could be PUPO. Like this is as close to bfp I could be right now.

Did you feel anything...the day of your transfer....nothing to hint a bfp ....but just your feelings that day?


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## gingmg

You mean how did I feel that day? I was elated. I was so happy after I saw that flash of life on the screen, it was mind boggling. I then went home and slept the day away because I had worked the night before so was still awake and delirious by the time of the transfer and completely exhausted by the time I got home that afternoon. So wasn't awake to feel anything after. I watched a lot of sex and the city the following day to stay busy and also because it always can make me laugh.
How did you feel?


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## BBbliss

Breaking so glad it went well, now go enjoy your getaway and allow yourself to dream a little. 

So many good informations here lately... Sorry I've been inactive and thank you for all your well wishes... I had another rough week with DD...

My grandmother past away in the first hours of this morning... I had a long day, woke up with a call from my mom with the news, got up and made Brazilian cheese bread from scratch just like she used to make for me, went to yoga and this afternoon planted a rose garden in her honor. Her name was Rose and I only found out later that as I was planting the roses she was being buried in Brazil. 

And so it goes... The circle of life <3


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## gingmg

Bbbliss I am so sorry for your loss. Big hugs. I hope it was peaceful for her and I am glad you found a way to honor her. I am also sorry for your tough week with DD.


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## Blythe

BBBliss - i am sorry to read of the passing of your grandmother. I think it is a lovely idea to plant the rose tree in your garden. :hugs:

I hopes things get a little easier at home with your DD - :flower: When i was young i had no clue that my actions had consequences or that people might be going through it because of me. i had the most appalling relationship with my own mother when i was young but she never really cared and so it never really resolved itself. Im still an angry teen whenever i get near her :(

:hugs: to you 

Breaking - wonderful news that little embie is all safe on board - i will be watching my updates with great excitement and hoping you get a nice early BFP. Have a great little break and enjoy the pampering :flower:

Briss - as we have all trawled the internet for things to do during IVF I'm sure you have seen the following list set out by someone on another site. There is nothing particularly shocking in there - stuff we have read a hundred times but in one place :)

Things you should DO:

- Eat an egg or two each day or other protein rich foods. 90g a day is ideal. Try nuts, seeds, eggs, meats and beans etc...

- Drink lots of water. 2L a day is ideal.

- Eat plenty of fruit and vegetables.

- Drink 1L of milk a day.

- Eat High Vit C foods.

- Eat avocado for blood.

- Eat dried apricots. They have a lot of fertility nutrients and are a good replacement for sweets.

- Take Prenatal Vits, DHA, fish oil, royal jelly, coQ10 and floridix, Vit E and selenium for lining.

- Eat Brazil nuts and walnuts, a couple a day after Down Reg scan.

- Drink 1 glass pineapple juice (not concentrate) a day from DR scan.

- Eat iron rich foods to build up lining after DR scan.

- Drink pomegranate juice to help build up lining after DR scan.

- Exercise (only light exercise while stimming and after collection/transfer like walking. This increases blood flow to the uterus).

- Eat pineapple (core) a couple of days before and 5 days after.



Things you should AVOID:

- Avoid cold/iced foods.

- Avoid excess amounts of red meat.

- Do not eat sugar or sugar substitutes. Sugar negatively effects egg quality.

- No alcohol for either partner for at least a month before egg collection.

- Reduce or eliminate caffeine intake.

- Avoid banana and cheese so your uterus doesn't get too slippery!

- No processed foods at all.


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## Blythe

Gingmg - i love getting lost in a few episodes of SATC - its like travelling back in time and hanging out with some old mates. Hope you are keeping well :hugs:


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## Delphine11

BBbliss said:


> Breaking so glad it went well, now go enjoy your getaway and allow yourself to dream a little.
> 
> So many good informations here lately... Sorry I've been inactive and thank you for all your well wishes... I had another rough week with DD...
> 
> My grandmother past away in the first hours of this morning... I had a long day, woke up with a call from my mom with the news, got up and made Brazilian cheese bread from scratch just like she used to make for me, went to yoga and this afternoon planted a rose garden in her honor. Her name was Rose and I only found out later that as I was planting the roses she was being buried in Brazil.
> 
> And so it goes... The circle of life <3

I'm so sorry about your grandmother, BBbliss. I lost mine three years ago and it still hurts. Your rose garden is a beautiful way of honouring her. I hope you're Ok today. 

Keep strong and positive :hugs:


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## Briss

Breaking Dawn, congratulations on being PUPO! I remember I felt so happy after ET, I was absolutely in love with my little embryo and was talking to it all the time. I am keeping my fingers crossed for you and your little one. stick dear embie, stick!

BBbliss, I'm so sorry about your grandmother. Your rose garden is a wonderful idea. 

Gingmg, I love sex and the city! 

Delphine, thanks for your input on vitex, that's very helpful. Some women reported wonderful results with vitex but others were not so lucky so i guess unless you try you wont know if it works for you but I am not sure I want to risk it just yet particularly cos I just need it for egg quality and there is so much other stuff that I could try 

Melly, how are you?

Blythe, my new egg quality regime is not going that great I have to admit. I have been loading on coffee and hot cross buns (with butter!)... oh well, I will start on Monday, it's just easier for me to be "good" during the working week. 

I like this article on supps for egg quality https://www.pullingdownthemoon.com/blog/2011/june/supplements-to-improve-egg-quality-.aspx

Your list looks great but a couple of items I do not agree with (i) 2L water + 1L of milk a day?? surely this is excessive? (ii) Avoid banana and cheese? cheese gives you protein and calcium and bananas are such a wonderful, healthy and filling snack. what do they mean by slippery uterus?

I've been looking into chia seeds, seems you cant go wrong with them really. I checked 'GOOP' as well tbh I did not come across it before, lots of good info and GP does mention chia seeds :) I'd love to go back to juicing and making smoothies though. I actually love milk and can drink it on its own (with some delicious bread!). what didyou get in your health food store? I am so curious :) well done on persevering with acu, I am sure it does tones of good for your blood flow. what points do you get needled? 

re your friend's return, I know it seems for most people it's this easy, we want a june baby, and Voilà! they get pregnant just in time for june. I am also morally preparing myself for these announcements and yet they always shock me, what a terrible thing to have such reaction at most wonderful news. it makes me want to keep the birth of my child (trying to be optimistic here) to only close friends because you just do not know whom it might hurt and I really do not want that.


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## Blythe

Briss - i agree the volume for milk/water is too much. some of this will work for me, other bits won't. for instance, i do enjoy the odd glass of wine and as long as i am not consuming loads I'm not going to bother changing this. whilst stemming i will probably avoid it though. 

With regard to the milk/water i am just trying to increase my intake and not bothering monitoring it exactly so long as i am having more than usual.

i don't think the odd bit of cheese is going to offend.diary products do build mucus and can create damp in the body, if i remember correctly. i may revisit my paul pritchard book on eating according to TCM principals to see if he mentions this 'slippery uterus' stuff!

Sugar/caffeine - well i don't drink coffee throughout the day so i don't think it is an issue for me. i have 2/3 teas/coffees per day and will try and reduce when on stims [if i ever get that far].

i went into the health food store yesterday and got nothing but did go into sainsburys and brought an early easter egg which i consumed all by myself.


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## melly2

Breaking: Great news on the transfer. Enjoy your spa weekend!

Bbliss: So sorry to hear about your grandmother. Grandmas are the best and we will always miss them. Sorry to hear about your bad week with DD; I really hope things get better. 

Briss: Well, I never drink milk. Ever. So, I think the diet sorta depends on how well the person digests the food. As long as it's wholesome and not packaged junk food, then you're off to a good start. I also think some cheese won't hurt you either. 

AFM: Still staying the course, 10 units of Lupon and Etrace. I'm not suffering from the horror stories I've read about Lupron; my hot flashes at night have went away. I think having this extra bit of estrogen is helping, too. 

Hope everyone is having a great weekend!


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## gingmg

Blythe- chia seed pudding is so good. You just mix the seeds with coconut milk and you can add some blueberries or strawberries and vanilla if you want. Put it in the fridge and poof- fabulous snack!


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## Briss

I decided to print off a list of things I am supposed to eat during the day and just tick them off as I go alone to make sure I cover as many as possible. also once I get my usual chocolate cravings I will try to go through the list in the hope that something will catch my eye and I'd want to eat that instead of the chocolate. 

I know it's only 9 am but so far so good I did not stop at Nero for my usual cappuccino and instead got some nuts and chia seeds, and got porridge with pumpkin seeds from the canteen for breakfast. I also boiled some eggs to have later on as a snack. 

melly, when you say you had hot flashes during the night, what exactly are they? I wonder if I have been having these flashes but just did not realise what they were. I sometimes wake up in the morning and my back is sort of wet. My Dh blames it on me overheating the apartment but I am not sure if it's related. Also my duvet is synthetic so maybe that's playing its role.


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## Blythe

Briss - well done! its all about breaking those ingrained habits and the morning coffee routine is a biggie!

my friend recently informed me a friend of hers has been making shakes which include the following which she puts this in to about 150  200 ml of yoghurt:

Spirulina
Maca root powder
Bee pollen-1tea spoon
Kelp powder-1tea spoon
Hemp seeds-1tea spoon
Pumpkin seeds
Almonds
linseeds
Banana
Raspberry
Goji berry
Strawberry
Apple
Yougurt
Cacao beans

Apparently after just two weeks of having these she says she feels great and her skin feels great and really awake.

that Spirulina crap tastes disgusting and i find it overpowers anything that i put it in so i have brought the tablets which do not repeat on me! I'm going to try and do some shakes this week incorporating some of this stuff.


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## Briss

Blythe, impressive list but I am totally with you re spirulina. just cant stomach it, too disgusting. I am also completely off wheatgrass juice, I ended up feeling quite sick after drinking it almost every time. Ladies at Crushh recommended adding it to apple juice which they use to mask the bad taste of green goodies but you'd need a lot of apples to hide something as powerful as spirulina. I eat spinach and other greens every days so I am hoping that would be sufficient and I can skip on these green monsters. 

Maca is not that great either actually, and it did not do any noticeable changes to my DH so I am not sure if it's worth it considering the taste. Bee pollen is definitely great. One thing I failed to do in NZ is to visit local bee farms and ask for some fresh royal jelly! their bees are enormous so I was simply afraid&#8230; oh well. reminds me I need to order more Goji berry for DH. I cant say I noticed any particular difference but he likes them and they are supposed to be good. Actually to think of it the only real difference came from the (hard core) meds DH has been taking, I am still amazed every time he suggests to have sex, it's like I got a different man. no amount of maca or other goodies were able to produce this result. 

My shocking morning discovery is that I tend to eat much more if I do not have coffee. no idea why but cappuccino will usually last me until lunch time with maybe a bit of chocolate in between. Today I had green tea, a good size portion of porridge with seeds and raisins, and just an hour later I felt quite hungry and turned to nuts!!


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## Briss

apparently the ARGC sends their IVF patients to this clinic https://www.londonacupuncture.co.uk/practices.asp to have acu during IVF cycles. prices seem reasonable (but then I am comparing with Dr Zhai's) None of the practitioners look Chinese though but they seem to understand what high FSH is all about and why it needs to go down for IVF https://www.londonacupuncture.co.uk/showCondition.asp?ArticleID=5 I wonder if I should give it a go, no herbs for me though just the acu. I definitely came across Daniel Elliott's article on FSH and TCM before (https://www.londonacupuncture.co.uk/images/photos/high fsh.pdf ) but I did not appreciate that he was actually a practicing doctor in London and so close to where I live. Awfully tempting! will I not be just wasting my time and money and having false hopes again?


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## Blythe

What a good looking, well qualified bunch they are! Although they don't have the wealth of experience and knowledge that i bet Dr Zhai has. Briss - you have been to the best in london do i doubt this lot have got any tricks up their sleeves.

I must say it would be a treat to work with a practitioner who had expertise in fertility matters but I'm happy enough with my lot even though they don't know what I'm saying half the time. I like acuwell i don't like the needles going in, and sometimes i get bored laying there looking the cracks in the corner of the room where they builders didn't do the partition properly, but i do it because i wonder if it does help and i like being forced to lay there are do nothing. I can't google and i can't do anything other than just be still. I rarely do that so its worth it for that alone.

i read the article on high levels of FSH with interest - lots of emphasis on herbs though - not surprising as we have agreed before that this is probably the most powerful of the TCM treatments.


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## Briss

I seriously overate today, I do not feel so good but I did get my 90gm of protein (thank you cottage cheese!) but not sure I can manage an avocado on top of over 1,500 calories I have consumed already. it's just hard without the chocolate, I feel like I am constantly hungry and am never satisfied with whatever I eat and yet sickly full at the same time. I might have some sort of insulin or blood sugar issues, I hope not. Cant believe it's just been one day without chocolate. I am watching a tv program about low fat foods, no surprises most low fat products have much more sugar in them than my favorite chocolate eclairs! it's really hard to find delicious yogurt which is not low fat.

I did make an appointment with this new clinic for tomorrow :) silly me, I never learn, do I? I just bought into their whole FSH thing. I so badly want it to go down to get IVF funding. their office is actually next to Dr Zhai's and they only take cash... 70 pounds for 20 min discussion and 40 min acu. I am not going for herbs (although do not be surprised if I end up carrying tones of raw herbs back home), I still believe herbs deliver the result but I just do not trust anyone in London to get the recipe right for me. 

For some reason, I just never developed enough trust in Dr Zhai, and maybe that contributed to her treatment not really working for me. I firmly believe she is on top of her profession as far as london goes but cant help but feel it's all about making money. also when you pay so much money you kind of expect miracles


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## Breaking Dawn

Bliss,....so sorry for the loss of your grandmother....:hugs:

Ladies....ive been following along with the interesting information about acu and vitamins.


I'm 2dp5dt..(7dpo). I'm trying not to obsess....trying to ignore symptoms. But I feel so so off today. Light headed like I stood up to quickly. Just want to get to the wind so I can test ! Soooooo nervous....


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## BBbliss

Breaking, thank you

Hang in there, I'd think it is ok to feel off, it could just be the excitement of it all leading up to this moment. Like the morning after a big event... This was a big event


Blythe, thank you for telling me about your relationship with your mom, it meant a lot to me. I do care, and she's starting to care too, to make a long story short now she says she is depressed and that she's been having panic attacks. I know she's not having the attacks, I think it's just emotional bursts and she's doing it for attention and somewhat out of guilt, she just doesn't know how to "fix" our relationship after so much turmoil. Good news is she wants us to go to therapy together so I'm making some calls tomorrow and hopefully get started soon.


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## Briss

Breaking Dawn, it's so hard not to obsess, isn't? whenever I feel sickish in TWW I almost feel happy and even try and dwell on this (rather unpleasant) feeling to almost reinforce it. I am keeping my fingers crossed something wonderful is happening 7 dpo is the right time for implantation to start 

BBbliss, I am so happy your daughter is coming around! 

afm, I am pathetic, could only manage one day without any coffee&#8230;. back to my usual morning cappuccino today mainly because I just could not imagine having any more food this morning, I so overate yesterday I feel like I am still full. It just feels like the more I eat the more I want to eat but in the end do not feel so good. Coffee + chocolate is a perfect combination you feel great, not hungry for hours and yet your stomach is not overloaded with food so you feel light sort of thing, overall great feeling and that's what I am used to. I am still not having any sugars though. everything I had yesterday was healthy it's just there was a lot of it. hopefully I can stay away from coffee tomorrow. 

am having blueberry bio yogurt with pineapples and chia seeds &#8211; delicious! but calorie wise is a nightmare at 640 calories all together! but hopefully will give me at least 20 gm of protein. 

looking forward to my acu session today, I decided not to bring alone my prescriptions from my previous docs I would like to hear what he will make of me on his own. I just need to stay firm re herbs


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## Blythe

Bbbliss - that is really great that she wants to go to therapy. You are a great mum :flower:

Breaking - keep us up too date with your symptoms - i so hope this is it for you :flower:

Briss - please report back on appt today and let me know what points they needle and we can compare :) Don't worry about a morning coffee - its all about balance and if you feel you overeat if you don't have any caffeine well thats just making your body work harder - so i would keep the morning caffeine and just balance everything else as best you can. This stuff has too be workable for us and i just need a kick in the morning so I'm given up giving up caffeine and I'm much happier for it. Happiness = increased fertility!


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## Breaking Dawn

Bliss...so great to hear things are on the mend with you DD.

Briss..Blythe...you ladies are awesome with your healthy eating...so much better than I am. Keep it up :)

AFM...i am 3dp5dt..(8dpo) today. Feeling very blah and not optimistic.

Last night I didn't sleep well....i was reading tww symptoms on Google before bed and just feel that I'm out. I'm so so scared this hasn't worked. Ughhh! 

DH and i are headed to our spa - staycation today. I hope it relaxes me...


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## Blythe

Breaking - stay away from those 2WW boards. Having said that the only reason i don't look at them anymore is because i have read most of the posts! Don't forget both gingmg and jazzbird both thought they were outgive it time and please try and stay away from those forums.


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## gingmg

Breaking- enjoy your spa vacation. Not feeling pregnant doesn't mean anything. I have everything crossed for you!

Bbliss- glad your dd wants to try to get help. Recognition is the first step.


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## BBbliss

Thank you girls,

Ging, I'm trying your chia pudding :) I added coconut flakes and prunes, it's in the fridge now and I can't wait to try it! 

Breaking, it's true, I know it's hard not to look for symptoms but so many women feel nothing at all until much later. Stay positive!

Briss, I think you and I have very similar taste buds :) I can't start my day without my cappuccino and I absolutely love chocolate and I think it fill me too. When I was told by my clinic to cut caffeine I almost cried, LOL well what I did to ease the pain was I bought decaf espresso coffee and for the first few days I mix it half and half of coffee grounds and started to ad more of the decaf until I cut of the caffeine completely. Ok that did work well, problem is I didn't stick to the plan and the day after collection I went back to my normal cappuccino, now as I get closer to FET I'm going to have to start all over again :(


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## alison29

You guys should try teecino it brews like coffee (you don't buy the tea bags the grounds) and it is so super good. No caffeiene none of the acidity or harmful properties of coffee. My mom is a long life coffee drinker (me too) and loved the teecino..Vanilla nut, hazel nut and almond amaretto are my favorite. I get them on amazon. I sometimes mix it half and half with coffee. drink black tea for caffeiene too but I know my body rejects coffee so it's not good for me. My best friends nautropath said the coffee HAD to go for her soemtimes people are more sensitive than others to the chemicals in decaf etc. Just an idea. She got pregnant the next month so of course i went out and bought teecino! she went totally caffeine free though. that is dedication.


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## alison29

I shoudl mention also she had six failed IUIS with trigger and got pregnant natural that cycle she is 37.


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## melly2

alison: thanks for the tip. I'm going to check into that. I'm down to one cup of coffee a day, which is nothing short of a miracle for me. 

Breaking: Everyone's 2ww is different; there is no set symptoms for any one person. I would definitely not focus on it as much as you can. I say that, and I'm sure I will be the exact same way. ;-)

Ging: I did the Chia pudding last night, too. I have a ton of chia seeds and forgot about that recipe. It's a great alternative and helps my sugar fixation after dinner.

Bbliss: Glad to hear that your DD is willing to go to counseling together. That is a step in the right direction, for sure.


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## Briss

reporting back on my acu appointment. 

it went really well, Dr E was a delight! so pleasing that you can discuss fertility related staff and he completely understands everything. Basically his conclusion was that I am exactly the case his article was written about. He thinks my high FSH nightmare is probably due to laparoscopy!! finally smb is on my side and does not think I am nuts for suggesting it. basically the fact that after lap my cycle got considerably shorter and my FSH went up are related because that's how it works. but the good news is that there is a chance I am not pre menopausal! he explained in detail how hormones work and how it is linked to brain and basically it seems like following the lap my brain started producing more FSH because ovaries or part of the ovary stopped being receptive to it so the brain thinks ovaries need more FSH. while ovaries are actually do not need any more but because they get more from the brain they start working faster and I ovulate sooner making my cycle short. indeed after the lap I ovulated on CD 9 and had 22 and 23 day cycle! he said most people get very positive outcome from laps and more women get spontaneously pregnant even if lap does not seem to resolve or find any issues but there is a small percentage of women who get their cycles screwed by this procedure. basically bad luck (no surprises here). it's not clear whether this can be fixed at all but he was very positive that we can get FSH down so we could proceed with IVF. if his conclusions are correct we should see reduction in FSH in 3 months. sounds positive but then I have already done months and months of acu herb and no FSH reduction and the points he needled so far are not very different from what I got needled before. although maybe his herbs are different. I thought about it and decided to give it a go. I do not know how long I am to wait for IVF and there is nothing else out there that can help with FSH. also, I do not know if that was due to me having acu/herbs but during both IVFs everyone who did my scan noted excellent blood flow to my ovaries/follicles and that was actually the reason they proceeded with my second cycle even though I did not respond well to stims, they thought egg quality should be good considering such excellent blood flow. there is part of me that thinks it is largely due to acu. I know I was not happy with acne during my first treatment but Dr E actually said sometime acne is a sign that things started improving and it just takes time for them to regulate themselves. I do not know but my O will be a good indicator to me if things are moving in the right direction. 

*diagnosis*: Kidney yin deficiency, liver stagnation, excess heat, empty heat - basically nothing new my previous diagnosis was confirmed. he actually explained about excess heat and being cold, something I tend to fail to understand. apparently it's just to do with the fact the heat does not mean temperature. anger, frustration etc are also heat and I do have a lot of those&#8230; he actually also said that I might have lower progesterone levels. he was slightly concerned with me relying on EPO too much to delay my O because apparently (I did not know that) EPO works in a way that reduces progesterone! I have enough progesterone to confirm ovulation but in some cycles I may not have enough to support implantation. Ideally you need above 35 and I did have a 32 reading at one point but who knows It may have been lower than that in some cycles. in some cycles by breasts double in size in TWW and are sensitive in others they are no different to what they were before O. I was thinking that was a good thing that maybe some stagnation cleared and that's why breasts are fine in TWW but he thought it might be due to lower progesterone. anyway, worth doing another blood test I think.

*herbs*: as I suspected he did say that herbs play a huge part in making changes and he does use herbs in his practice and he sees the results much quicker with herbs than just acu but he does not mind if we just do acu alone. anyway he said he wont suggest starting herb until my next cycle so I have time to think about it. any views? 

*acu points*: nothing ground breaking, to think of it these are very standard and well known fertility points. 

left/right zigong (ovary points). interestingly I was scared my right zigong is going to hurt as usual but it was absolutely fine, did not feel a thing. Zigong, also known as Palace of the Child can be located by finding the point that is 3 inches below the belly button and then, measuring 3 inches towards the hip on either side. When this point is stimulated, the facilitation of ovaries and uterus takes place. 

SP 6, also known as Joining of the Three Yin is situated in the depression 3 inches above the heel of the foot on either legs. The stimulation of this point will result in normal menstruation, facilitates ovulation, and heals reproductive problems. It can also be used in the treatment of menstrual pain. https://www.yinyanghouse.com/acupuncturepoints/sp6

LV 3, https://www.yinyanghouse.com/acupuncturepoints/lv3 

LI 4, https://www.yinyanghouse.com/acupuncturepoints/li4 

new points: (provided I got it right, I think the needles were on both sides and very low almost below my nickers level and much below ovaries) ST 30, also known as Rushing Qi is a point obtained when 3 inches is measured downward from the belly button and then, 2 inches is measured outward. This point is used to stimulate uterus, ovaries and fallopian tubes. https://www.yinyanghouse.com/acupuncturepoints/st30 

+ heat lamp on my tummy 

he did not do any REN points. and he did not use electro-acu. I did warn him that I have already ovulated and he said that he always does acu based on the assumption that his patients are pregnant cos indeed most of them are trying to. 

very useful reference for the relevant acu points - https://www.yinyanghouse.com/treatments/acupuncture_for_female_infertility#def-kdyin

I found this article also interesting: https://www.jcm.co.uk/product/catal...e-to-improve-fertility-in-a-45year-old-woman/ 

forgot to ask him if it's OK to go swimming a few hours after acu. Does anyone know?


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## gingmg

Briss- your new acupuncturist sounds great! It's so reassuring when they understand fertility. I had no idea a lap could do that to your FSH. I hope working with this new practitioner brings the results you are looking for.

I need to talk about something and I really hope it is ok. This is going to be quite long. I want to first say that I am so incredibly grateful that I have so far had success with IVF, I feel so incredibly lucky and blessed. I am still struggling with shame, however, in the way we had to get pregnant and that my body couldn't do it naturally (in my case IUIs without meds). I know it shouldn't matter, and for the most part it doesn't, but I have realized that I still have a lot of emotions surrounding it that I haven't dealt with yet. Very few people know that we did IVF. A lot of people knew we had been trying last year, but once we moved into true fertility help I started lying when I was asked and would say things like "we are going to save to buy a house first", or "it was too sad that it wasn't happening, so I am trying to eat better and give my body some time not smoking before we try again". I just didn't want to talk about it. The few people that know that we went through IVF know that I am very private about it and know that it is information that they can never repeat. Well this weekend, I told my aunt that I was pregnant and of coarse she was excited and asked a million questions. I just said, "I don't know what was different, we just switched donors and it worked, or maybe it's because I don't smoke anymore". Anyway, she couldn't drop it apparently because I walked into the room to my mother telling her that it was an IVF cycle. I was heartbroken that my mother betrayed my trust and that my aunt now knows too. I made her swear not to ever repeat the information and reiterated to my mother that she needs to come up with a better answer should she get asked again. We are a same sex couple, people are going to ask, and personally I don't think it's anyone's business. I cried my eyes out for an entire day, I mean bawled and sobbed for hours and hours on end. I realized that what is bothering me more than my aunt knowing and more than my mother telling is that I still have so much shame and embarrassment that my body couldn't do this without help. Of coarse, I am glad I accepted the help, and over the moon that it has worked, but I can't shake all these other emotions. Getting pregnant has made the journey worth it, but it certainly has not erased the pain it took to get here. My wife, mother and best friend don't understand why I feel the way I do, and don't understand why I want it to be a secret. I shouldn't feel the way I do, but I don't know how to change it. I am petrified my friend has told other people, or will once I am out that I am pregnant. She has reminded me that many people are going to assume it anyway since my wife doesn't have sperm. I guess people don't realize there are many other ways that most lesbians get pregnant. They think if I am open about it and talk about it, I will feel better and slowly change how I feel. But I don't want to talk about it. I probably will always lie about it, but that doesn't feel fair to my baby. I am not ashamed of him/her, just that my body failed and I needed such invasive help to get here. It feels like some weird science experiment, and I don't ever want anyone to look at my child differently, or me differently. I don't judge anyone if I hear that someone did IVF, so why would I think that they would judge me? None of it makes sense, but I can't shake these feelings. Any advice? I don't want to upset anyone by talking about my pregnancy, I know it must feel like " shut up you got what you wanted, just be grateful". But I don't know where else to turn, seeing as the few people that know that I feel this way, don't seem to understand. How do I feel less ashamed? I am petrified that it will slowly get out. I want to feel ok about people knowing, but I'm not. I wish I never told anyone to begin with so I don't have to have this fear that they will break my trust even though they promised they wouldn't, just like my mom did. And I know she didn't do it to gossip, and it wasn't malicious, and she feels awful (especially after she saw how I reacted for the rest of the weekend and how hurt I was)- my aunt just wouldn't drop it and my mom felt backed into a corner. But I am scared this will keep happening, people are going to ask questions and I don't want to answer them. I shouldn't have to. But why do I feel ashamed of my body? How do I get over that? I am spending too much time thinking of smart answers to let people know it is none of their business like "it's true, once you stop trying it happens, it was totally natural, what a miracle" or if someone asks me flat out if we did IVF "what's IVF?". I need to get over this, but I don't know how to.


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## gingmg

BBliss- A woman from my mind/body program just found out her IVF cycle has worked, she is 45 and was using her own eggs- it was her second IVF. Thought that would bring some inspiration. :flower:


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## BBbliss

Ging, thank you for that message!!! Yay it does make me excited end hopeful!

And listen, I totally get your feelings of anger, I was so angry at my mom for telling my cousin that I had to lie to my mom and just tell her my dr. Said I had less then one % chance (That story)and then never shared anything else. I did tell her after collection we tried but she never asked again, I feel horrible I can't share it with her but I'm afraid she's going to tell everyone. I really understand how you feel. I have shame too, I probably would not do it if I wasn't literally running out of time. Maybe that's what I can tell people, that we didn't want to wait or didn't have the time to wait anymore. I struggle with the truth as well and don't want to feel this way, I do know its part of my ego and in spiritual practice we should aim to not give it power. Just observe what's happening and see it for what it is not giving into it. It's ok and it's natural to feel this way. I may come up with some silly funny answer to stop people from asking but it does make me very uncomfortable and I'm a TERRIBLE lier and at the same time I don't want to tell. I told a couple of my best friends but thank God they never ask question, they know I don't want to talk about it. 

These feelings are very personal and it's a process we each individually need to come to peace with... We need to believe and accept that it's ok. All of it is ok.


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## BBbliss

Briss your post was so explanatory it almost makes me want to do ACU on myself, lol


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## Jazzbird

Hello ladies - been catching up on your posts.

BBbliss - so sorry to hear about your grandmother - I hope you are doing ok. So glad to hear your daughter has agreed to go to counselling. That sounds like a major breakthrough

Briss - so so pleased you are giving acu another go. You are right - I don't think there is anything else out there that claims to help with fsh. I also feel that acu & herbs are a mere drop in the ocean compared to the cost of ivf. I wholeheartedly believe that herbs are better than acu for long standing problems. They allow the daily drip feed of treatment. It is especially good for nourishing yin and clearing heat which is often the main culprit for high fsh. However powdered herbs are nearly as potent as raw; yet they are far more cost effective (£50 per month - rather than £6-10 per day). The most important factor with treatment is consistency: far better to take slightly less potent herbs for a year than take raw herbs for 2 months. My college - the integrated college of Chinese medicine in Reading has some of the leading uk herbalists and more often than not prescribe powdered herbs mainly because raw is too prohibitively expensive and generally encourages short term treatment and not long term. 

I don't know the answer to your qu re swimming - all I know is that you shouldn't swim when on your period. Perhaps though if you do feel cold it might not be a good idea if you are kidney yang deficient. But cold hands and feet can also be liver Qi stagnation. Ask your acu. If he is putting heat lamps on your ovaries I personally wouldn't go swimming straight after. 

Ging - I totally understand your feelings re ivf - however because of your situation it means that with IUI you only have one chance every month to conceive. If you were in a heterosexual relationship you could have multiple tries each month. Most couples 35+ take around a year to conceive. But doing it with IUI - you'd probably have to double that timeframe and it's so expensive. There is clearly nothing wrong with your body, it's just that like any sane person in your situ - I'd rather go for a one off costly treatment with higher odds than take 2 years of invasive procedures at high costs all the time whilst worrying about my age and declining fertility. 

Breaking - keeping everything crossed for you. Forget 2ww symptoms - I had none! In fact I was convinced period was starting as I had usual cramping day before I was due. 

Blythe & Melly - hello


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## Jazzbird

Ps Briss - looks like you are in great hands with your acu - I have referred to the fsh article he wrote many times. Fantastic that he is also a doctor. I would be so interested to know what made him train in acu/herbs. It does work - but having the right practitioner is everything. 

I am glad you are getting consistent diagnosis though. That is really positive. 

I also read another post where you talk about hot flushes at night where your back is damp? This is empty heat or false heat and arises because there is not enough yin in the body to keep it cool at night. Fertility treatments often deplete yin which is why women on clomid can often get hot flushes.


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## Blythe

Gingmg - darling i do know how you feel [well a bit]. 

i feel a mixture of shame and embarrassment. My feelings mostly stem from my age [i.e. messing around with nature at nearly 42, if it don't happen naturally etc etc] and that i have a child [should be grateful for what i have, at least you have one etc etc] but really most importantly I'm upset because it is private and i should decide who gets to know and when!

So i have two options - continue with shame and embarrassment or own it! "Yeah bitch i did IVF and this is my IVF baby - i wasn't even there when they were conceived so suck on that !!!!!"

Obviously i am going to try and go for the latter WHEN i get pregnant. It is hard and our bodies are not doing what they were meant to do hence us all talking about IVF etc. I sometimes wonder what people think when they click on our thread called 'Chinese Acupuncture' and come across a frustrated bunch talking about operations, injections, and gatorade&#8230;.hardly the most natural approach. None of us thought we would be here and it is really difficult to accept having to have extra help. 

i often think what i will tell people when I'm pushing my twins around at the age of 50. I suppose at the end of the day people are just curious and don't really judge so let them ask away.

:flower:


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## Blythe

Briss - its so great to read your positive post about your appt yesterday. I am excited to see the results it will bring. What a great thing to talk to someone who gets this stuff!

And thanks for the links - i will take a look now:flower:


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## Clizard

ging - jumping in to post this link, I remember reading it when an old school friend announced she was pregnant with twins, and thought it might be helpful?
_"As for the are they natural I usually say, "No, I think they are rayon or viscose..."_
https://ivf.ca/forums/topic/29070-what-to-say-when-people-ask/


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## Briss

*gingmg*, I can totally relate re shame, about having to go through IVF to get pregnant. I felt exactly like that and that's why I never told anyone about our IVFs (obviously having gone through 2 IVFs and fail both puts this shame into a whole new level but that's not the point). my mum (the only one who knows) under very strict instructions re confidentiality but you know mums they seem to unable to keep their children's most intimate private things to themselves, I do not judge as I am not a mum yet so what do I know but when I think that she might have told somebody my blood boils and I have to start doing deep breathing exercises just to come back to normal. I am so upset for you that you spent the whole day crying but you must know by now that your body is no longer yours and you cant really afford to give in to these emotions, it's all about your baby now. your mum made a mistake, a very hurtful one I totally admit but your baby does not deserve to suffer from it and your crying does not help your baby grow  sorry I know this is all obvious and not helpful probably but it's just true. try and divert your attention away from yourself towards your baby. you made it happen on first try at IVF!! not many can say that about themselves so you should be proud but most importantly you are pregnant now you have life growing inside everything else does not matter at least until you stop breastfeeding. if you cant deal with negative emotions right now then try and postpone any negatives until then "I will not think about it now, I will think about it once I stop breastfeeding". 

re shame, as I said I had it as well and that's why I delayed so much reverting to IVF but trust me when I say it that you would've had no shame left whatsoever if you had to go through multiple IVFs to make it happen. after a few failed IVFs all you can think about is making it happen by any means possible. You just did not get to that stage and good for you but now you need to try to reach there by yourself, just think how lucky you are!! just in a few months you will meet your baby!

Having said that, I firmly believe this is your right to keep IVF confidential. if anyone asks deny it, none of their business (but practice what you are going to say as it is not easy to lie to your friends) I intend to keep it that way. Some of my friends know that I am considering IVF and that I am on NHS waiting list but I would prefer to keep our progress to myself. I am also considering whether I should not say anything to my mum this time around. Mainly because she is abroad anyway so she cant really help but she will be worried all the way through. though she is very religious so her prayer may help but then I am sure she prays a lot for us and it did not help yet in 4 years.

one of the reasons why I trust my mum to keep it a secret is cos some of our relatives do not grasp the concept of IVF and think a child would be different so they would also look at the child and try to find what's wrong with him and how he's different from their children and no one wants that so secret it is going to remain. if anyone asks and will say that they heard it from my mum I will just say we did IVF but we were not successful and it happened naturally after that or that we wanted to do IVF but all clinics rejected us because of my FSH so we did not get to that stage and yet it happened naturally. unfortunately in the UK you have to sign some papers disclosing the fact that the child was conceived that way to the regulator which is of concern because we know nothing of IVF and who knows how these people might be treated in the future like 100 years from now. but that's something we cant control in the UK. 

*BBbliss*, actually when I was going through these acu points I was thinking that I should probably start doing acu pressure every day cos I only get acu once a week, I am sure this will reinforce acu. I am not sure about decaf as the process involves chemicals that are more harmful than caffeine but something has to be done. I did quit coffee during work day for almost a year while I was doing acu last year but it was a struggle every morning and it never got easier. I may start with not having cappuccino on days that I feel less strongly about it.

*Jazzbird*, I hope you are doing well, really great that you are still around. your advice on all things acupuncture is always appreciated! I agree there seem to be nothing that helps with FSH simply because it is assumed that high fsh relates to aging but I do believe that there is certain percentage of women who get high FSH before their time for other reasons and I am hoping that's my situation in which case it should be possible to manage fsh levels. Dr E prescribes powdered herbs. he used raw herbs in the past but said his clients found it tricky to cook them correctly and it seems that powdered herbs are almost as good. 

re swimming, I thought as much and decided not go yesterday. Hopefully I will find some motivation to go swimming today. 

Apparently Dr E used to be a lawyer so we have something in common but he wanted to work for himself rather than for an employer and in the past he was treated very successfully with acupuncture so he developed an interest in this field and trained and opened its practice. 

Thanks for explaining re damp back, that makes sense considering that I have yin deficiency and recently went through 2 IVFs. 

*Blythe*, this is disgraceful! how could he tell your colleagues?? cant believe this, some people btw, I already know what I am going to tell people if I have twins (obviously I have a lot of time to think about these things), I am going to say that apparently this happens a lot to older women because as we age the system does not work that well and releasing more than one egg in a cycle is very common for premenopausal women (that last part is true). 

*alison*, thank you for recommending teecino, I've never heard of this before and will certainly look in to it. anything to help fight my coffee addiction. 

*Breaking*, enjoy your spa vacation!!

*afm*, not doing well on quitting coffee front, back to morning cappuccino today BUT I have been off chocolate and any bad sugars for over 2 days now so at least some willpower. I am doing really well with Chia seeds, it's so easy to add them to almost any meal. protein is between 70-90 gm a day so all is good here. although no room for avocados

I just bought a new book on egg quality "it starts with an egg", will definitely share any useful tips once I had a chance to read it but having briefly looked through the recommended list of supps there is something interesting. Our favourites are all there Coq10 (600), myo-inositol, DHEA, melatonin and antioxidants. the interesting part is that pycnogenol, royal jelly, L-arginine are in the category of "do more harm than good"!! cant wait to read why.


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## gingmg

Thanks for your kind words and support ladies. I know I need to get over this. I am actually OK until I think of someone finding out, that's when it starts all over again. I will be fine. I just needed to get it out. Thanks again.


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## Blythe

Briss - please do report back on l-arginine as i have been taking it again for a few weeks


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## melly2

*Ging*: I'm so glad you posted this, because I feel your pain. No one, except you ladies and my only best friend (since 7 years old) in the world who lives 1,000 miles away knows about this. NO ONE in my family knows. I only told my best friend because she struggled with pregnancy, too, because her husband is 30 years older than her (yes, you read that right) and had a vasectomy reversal, so I knew she could empathize with going through a bunch of procedures. Also, I knew she would keep this secret; I trust her and I have a lot of secrets of hers, too, which is good leverage. ;-) I am so adamant about keeping this private that it is one of the reasons we did chromosome testing so that we could transfer only one baby (not two), knowing that everyone would assume IVF if we had twins. I totally feel shame! I can't even put it into words how bad of shame I feel. I had a simple dermatologist appointment last week and I had to tell the doctor my meds, and I was reluctant to say Lupron knowing that she would ask why. When she did, I felt immediate shame and embarrassment, especially since there was also a nurse in the room. Ugh! The problem is, I feel like I have to explain it. Like I have to say, my husband had testicular cancer, has one ball left, low sperm...blah, blah. I then feel shame for my husband...a lot of it, because I know he feels shame. 

We do not intend to tell anyone...at least at this point. I even plan to keep the pregnancy a secret for at least four months, so I can avoid questions, and hope that people then focus on a fat belly. ;-)

I can totally empathize with you, which I guess is why I've kept it such a secret. That said, you have an amazing life growing inside of you, so this is all worth it. Once the baby is born, you will forget all of this ever happened. 

*Briss*: So happy that you had a great appointment. Sounds like he has you on the right path. BTW: are you taking progesterone cream for the second half of your cycles?


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## Briss

Blythe, definitely stop arginine basically this is the worst one out of 3 according to this book because it has been proven to reduce egg quality. I started reading this book and just could not put it down. so much to do at work but there is so much new info I just need to know. I am half way through the book but I covered the bad supps and diet already. 

Royl jelly and pycnogenol are not found in human body and actually I've been constantly questioning it because I get it that royal jelly helps bee fertility but how is this relevant to humans, does it necessarily follow that humans will respond in the same way? there was no research proving anything good coming out of these two. royal jelly has chemical that act like hormones and can disrupt cycle. actually that happened to me the cycle I was taking lots of fresh royal jelly was super short. 

Arginine is indeed found in follicular liquid and it was supposed to increase production of nitric oxide which dilates blood vessels which in its turn would increase blood flow to ovaries. And it was proven that this is how it really works and women taking it had more success in getting pregnant but in the study all of them (there was only 3 actually) miscarried and it later was proven mostly because of reduce egg quality. what happens is that this increase in permeability allowed hormones to get into follicles too easily and too early in the egg development process resulting in quick follicular growth. Other study proved that Arginine increases nitric oxide which decreases the level of cellular energy and increases the level of oxidizing molecules &#8211; both are said to damage eggs and embryos. Most recent study showed the link between higher arginine levels in ovarian follicles and reduced number of eggs retrieved during IVF.

she also included a very useful information on egg quality diet and unfortunately 90% of the chapter was about sugars&#8230; she explained in very fine detail the process and how damaging they are to ovaries and egg quality and I cant help but think I might have done it to myself and maybe it was not the lap but my years of chocolate dependency, most of my life I just ate sugary things and very little real food. good news is that it can be fixed with time so one more reason to concentrate on eliminating sugars. btw, she was not as negative about coffee because research was done on women who had 5-6 cup of coffee/tea and it does not follow that one cup will have the same effect but obviously if possible to limit it it only improves the matters. alcohol will have to go though&#8230;

diet wise meditarenain diet seems to be the best for egg quality cos it has B6 and B12, it includes veg, fruit, veg oil, legumes, lean proteins, low glycaemic carbohydrates 

protein wise best sources are fish, chicken breast, grass fed beef, lamb, lean pork but exception to that farmed salmon! it's really interesting cos if you recall I was into salmon when I was losing weight cos it has low calories. what I noticed is that wild salmon has almost twice as less calories than farmed one. it was so shocking. apparently farm ones are fed by corn and soy products and are high in arachidonic acid (I think it's bad form of omega 6) so totaly avoid farmed salmon. I usually go for wild Alaskan salmon

Good supps include:

coq10 (she recommends ubiqunol form but all research proving how great it is for egg quality was actually done on the old ubiquonone form), 

interesting about melatonin, it's all great and proven to improve egg quality but not recommended for natural TTC as it disrupts the cycle, so only used in stim IVF cycles. 

Vit E: not more than 200 IU seems to be safe

I have not finished the chapter yet&#8230;


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## Briss

melly, I do not use progesterone cream in TWW. I take 1,000 Vit C which is supposed to help my body produce more progesterone. I do not want to mess with hormones as I am not sure how this will work out overall ideally I want my body to do what it supposed to and produce sufficient progesterone for pregnancy.


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## Blythe

Briss. Thanks for such an informative post. I can imagine you at work reading it and avoiding the other stuff :)

I'm stopping the l-arginine straight away and stopping my two sugary morning teas....well I will reduce to one only!

When I was researching how I could bring my period forward and some women use mega doses of vit c. I brought some but it did not help in my case. I will have to find the links but I've avoided since then.


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## alison29

I get the question alot with new friends, "do twins run in your family?" I usually say no they are from hormone injections..at this time most people clam up and dont' want to hear anymore about it..I don't want my daughter to know because I don't want her to grow up thinking she will have problems too and have a self fulfilling prophecy. I will tell her if she asks though. You could just tell tehm to use their imagninations if they ask how you conceived.


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## alison29

I have been working to reduce sugars too but I have to admit I hit that low carb wall and feel like utter crap on my "good" days. It took my friend 2 wks of crap feeling to feel normal eating fats and protein only. She didn't cheat though.

It was relatively easy to give up white wine habit compared to the sugar and carbs. Chocolate is my evil too..and muffins and pancakes anything sweet and beige. I am taking myoinositol (for almost two months) and N acetyl Cysteine supposed to help with the sugar problem too. I know we can get through it but for me i have to view it the same as I did quitting smoking it's gonna really suck for 2 wks and it will be on the mind ALOT.


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## Blythe

I have just brought a fancy super expensive pedometer called a fitbit. My poundshop one was rubbish so having spent the morning looking at others on amazon i got this one. I've been wearing it for 5 mins and I already love it


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## melly2

Briss: That's interesting about l-araginine. What's the name of the book you're reading? Wish I had this book a year ago. :-/


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## Briss

I was supposed to do a crucially important and rather large piece of work today, I have not even started... i feel so bad about that. hopefully I can catch up tomorrow. the minute I opened this book in the morning (it only arrived today) I could not stop reading. some stuff you read online does not seem to be accurate if you believe this book. I was taking a lot of arginine in the past. then I remember we came across a study how it affects implantation but nothing on egg quality. apparently there were at least 2 studies demonstrating its negative effect on egg quality. she also says that myo insinol is only helpful to PCOS ladies, if you do not have that or insulin resistance it is unlikely to make any positive changes. but i am actually thinking i may have some sort of insulin resistance (given the amount of chocolate I've been consuming all my life) so maybe it will work for me. I am also upping my coq10 and moving to ubiqunol form cos it seems like this is the only sup that has been proven to work and has no side effects. and first and foremost I am avoiding all bad sugars and limiting all good ones like fruit because ultimately they work in the same way and make body produce insulin. so far 3 days of no chocolaty things! although I did have pasta today which is a no but that was before I got to this chapter. However, I have to say that even though I am focusing on protein rich foods, somehow I end up consuming far more fat and carbohydrates than when I was just eating chocolate. e.g. a serving of milk has 8 gm of protein and 12 grams of sugar and 5 gm of fat. nuts have 3 times more fat than protein and they have the same amount of carbohydrates as protein.


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## Briss

Blythe which one did you get? this one - https://www.amazon.co.uk/Fitbit-FB3...ie=UTF8&qid=1397074956&sr=8-3&keywords=fitbit I've been eyeing it for some time but people had a few negative experiences with it so I was not sure. Do you recommend it?

melly, the book is called "it starts with the egg" by rebecca fett. she summarises the most recent research on egg quality and explains how it all works. I cant say that she is completely unbiased but it's very interesting reading and lots of new information and she provides the relevant references to research papers. I think this book only came out quite recently.


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## Briss

alison, how much of myo insonin are you taking? do you notice anything different? I am told it is supposed to help with sugar craving. this book also mentions N acetyl Cysteine as one of egg quality supps.


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## Blythe

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/B00CK82GBQ/ref=pd_aw_sims_4?pi=SS115

I got the fit bit flex. Today will be my first day using it so rather excited. :)


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## Briss

I think I may have to stop my morning cappuccinos and not because of caffeine but because it comes in paper cups&#8230; my book has a very lengthy chapter on toxins and how they screw our hormones and eggs and Bisphenol A (BPA) is one of the main offenders. it even comes with paper receipts we get in supermarkets leaving alone all things plastic. 

"When used as a resin, BPA primarily makes plastic products, such as eyeglass lenses and DVDs. It is also found in many paper products, including paper cups. The BPA finds its way into paper cups, either due to cup production lines using BPA resin-lined parts, or through the plastic sleeve used to hold the paper cups in the grocery store. According to the Journal of the American Medical Association, BPA is linked to increased risk of heart disease, diabetes and liver problems. In fact, BPA is so prevalent, tests have shown signs of BPA in human blood and breast milk. Paper cups made from recycled paper have a higher concentration of BPA." https://www.ehow.com/list_6612132_human-health-concerns-paper-cups.html

there is about 20 years of studies proving its harmful effects on fertility and general health. it just gets more and more depressing

the good news is that for the first time I read in this book that egg quality can be improved!! I mean this is ground breaking cos everyone seems to agree that it deteriorates with age and nothing you can do. the only thing is to improve blood flow to follicles which can indirectly help create a better environment for the egg to grow. but the book said that's not true because apparently most chromosomal damage occurs within the egg in 2 months prior to O. It's all about energy. egg needs a huge amount of energy to put together the correct chromosomal line and energy reduces with age so that's why coq10 is so helpful cos it gives the egg more energy. 

OK now I really need to stop reading and go back to work!!!


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## melly2

Briss: I totally agree with the coQ10! Actually, both my husband I had been taking Ubiquiol a couple years prior to TTC not knowing it's positive affects on fertility. After his initial SA, we noticed that his motility count was always really high. After further reading, Ubiquol really helps with motility in men. I do swear by it, and I think that's one of the main reasons why I had so many healthy eggs at my age.


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## Breaking Dawn

Hi ladies..
Thanks for all your support....symptom spotting is awful .

DH and I have enjoyed such a relaxing spa-cation. Because it was mid week...we pretty much had the spa and pool to ourselves . It was amazing...

I did my best to keep my mind off tww....I'm 5dp5dt....and other then typical progerstone symptoms I don't feel anything.


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## Blythe

Breaking - it sounds like you had a fab time.

oh its so nerve wracking - thinking of you. When do you think you will test?


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## Breaking Dawn

Blythe....from the start I thought I would wait until 6dp5dt (11dpo). Which is tomorrow.....I've see a couple ladies who have super faint lines on 6dp....so now I'm thinking I should wait....ugh. You're right this is nerve wracking...

I just feel out...I didn't sleep well last night....and last night I had a horrible dream that I got surprise AF while I was out with friends and I was so upset and wanted to go home. ......and I do actually have plans with friends this weekend.....stupid dreams. :nope:


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## Blythe

Breaking - I hate those dreams. It's agonising and exhausting being so aware of every single thing our bodies are doing during the 2ww, and 100 times worse after IVF I bet. Not long now and you will know. Gang on I there :flower:


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## Briss

Breaking, great that you had wonderful time. hopefully it all helps implantation. dreams in TWW are the worst, I feel for you but hopefully you will get some real good news soon.

Melly, I have also been taking coq10 on and off for over 2 years but I started with very low dose of 30 and then increased it to 400, now I am on 600 which is what they recommend but once I get my ubiqunol I will take 300 of it.

Blythe, how was your fit bit flex today?


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## Blythe

I love my new fitbit flexits very comfortable and discreet and looks sort of geeky on my arm and i can get different coloured wrist straps too!

What is best is the app/dashboard which is really cool - it shows you how many steps you have done, how much you have exerted yourself and when. So today i was doing stuff around the house, mainly sewing so not much movement but i did do some exercise and it was interesting to see the little graph later in the day that shows how much you move and when and how many calories i have burnt too. You put the little USB toggle in the back of the computer and it updates regularly which is great when I'm at home but not sure about when i return to work. Still i feel motivated to move more.

There is a function which records how well you sleep too and it shows any movements during the night on the graphi feel i am a terrible sleeper so it will be interesting for me to see the graph after a few nights.

At the end of the day it is just a really fancy pedometer but i do really like it so far. Today i have done very little but i just checked my stats and i have nearly walked 4 miles so over 5KM and I'm 83% towards my daily step allowance of 10, 000 - i might do some running on the spot to get to 100% and increase my daily target once i am back at work when i intend on walking into work a couple of times per week.

When i did my exercise today i really looked out of shapeall this TTC has meant my body has just turned to flab. i feel quite determined to get toned again.


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## Briss

Blythe, it sounds great! so useful I have no idea how much I generally move around so I ma tempted to get one of those as well. you probably cant use while swimming? checking your sleep is just super, I'd really want to know how much I move during my sleep and at what times. it all sounds so fascinating. 

also, in my book there is a chapter on DHEA and she generally is very positive about it in certain circumstances like over 35 + high FSH/low AMH + failed IVF due to poor response so that's something for me to look into again in the future.

I am giving up perfume :( basically all cosmetics which has any kind of fragrance has toxins in it that affect eggs. I stopped using body lotions some time ago and replaced them with oils. need to think what to do with shampoo, best to find the one which is fragrance free. 

generally I feel like I am going in circles, I have periods when I make dramatic lifestyle changes followed by periods of terrible disappointment and giving up on everything. I guess waiting for IVF just drives me mad and I need something to do to stay sane.


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## Blythe

It is fully waterproof :) you wear it all the time and charge once a week. 

I'm on 25mg of dhea per day and I noticed that the zita west supplements I have been taking have iniositol (spelling!) in them. 

H&b do a nice selection of natural healthcare stuff. I have been using shower creams, hair shampoo and conditioner and toothpaste etc from there and have been impressed.


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## Blythe

I jumped around in front room and reached 10,000 steps. My wrist startibg vibrating and flashing and I received a certificate via email congratulating me. 

I feel like I have won a marathon :)


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## Briss

well done!10,000 steps sounds a lot! I am so impressed it's waterproof, i wonder how they would calculate my swimming. I definitely want to try. i can see how it's motivating you to move more. so positive. 

am definitely checking h&b's shampoo selection first thing tomorrow morning.


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## Blythe

I was looking at last nights sleep pattern and it shows i was particularly restless/awake between 1-2am. This corresponds with the liver in the chinese clock and would fit!

https://kerrchiropractic.wordpress.com/2008/03/21/the-meridian-organ-clock/


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## Briss

I am seriously depressed, I think I am beginning to spot again, CM is turning beige. it's only 10 DPO WTF!!! TWW spotting was never my issue. last month I put it down to travelling but this month I just do not know what to think. I will have to test just to make sure it's not chemical but this is truly depressing. is it possible that my progesterone levels are falling down? what am I doing wrong? 

btw, I am so addicted to coffee that even toxic paper cups cant seem to stop me&#8230; 

also, annoying that I am putting on weight really fast without chocolate. I eat 3 proper protein rich meals a day and snack on nuts, fruit, yogurt and I already cant fit into anything. yesterday I was really desperate to undo my dress at work cos I just could not breathe in it 

*Blythe*, that nights sleep pattern thing is really interesting. what do you think it means? liver has a lot to go though to clear your blood and process all waste that you get restless at that time?


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## Blythe

Bliss - the chinese calendar thing is something I'm still don't fully understand. My last chinese doc asked when i usually awoke during the night and i said between 1 and 2 and he said that corresponded with my liver and so that is where i had an imbalance. 

re high doses of Vit C see this:

https://www.wikihow.com/Force-a-Period

although you mentioned before it is good for increasing progesterone - so many conflicting things out there. Have you been taking the vit C these last two cycles?


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## Briss

ginger tea and vitamin C bring on menstruation??? I mean really? these two are often recommended for TWW to help with progesterone. all this conflicting info is just so tiring. last cycle and actually since my last IVF in Nov 2013 I have not been taking any supps but this cycle I started back on vitamin C after O but only 1,000 so it should not really make much difference but I do drink ginger/lemon every day (I was having it before as well as vit C almost every other cycle and it did not have such effect)

"Drink 3-4 cups of green tea a day to jump start your period?" it does not work I've been drinking green tea all my life not by cups but by pots and never had any effect on my AF. 

whenever I look for spotting before AF I seem to come across articles on Perimenopause and pre AF spotting&#8230;. 

just as soon as I got a cycle with no post AF spotting I get a new problem - pre AF spotting. Maybe Dr E is right and I do have some progesterone issues. before I started acu and herbs last year I often got pregnancy/progesterone symptoms in TWW like huge sensitive breasts and noticeable bloating but acu seemed to help with these symptoms and I always thought not having them was a positive thing but Dr E did not think so and suggested that it's all down to lower levels of progesterone. Maybe it's finally starting to show. 

re the chinese calendar thing, If I wake up at night it's usually between 4-5 am and seems to point towards "Respiration. Oxygenation. Expulsion of waste gasses", cant quite understand what it means though


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## melly2

Briss: That's very interesting spotting. Usually it something to do with progesterone levels, so perhaps it's that?

Blythe: Nice job on the 10,000 steps!

Breaking: Ugh...I'm sure it's quite agonizing right now. It's hard to distinguish the symptoms while taking progesterone. I assume you're taking the progesterone oil shot-o-hell? Stay positive and don't read too much into the symptoms or being out.

Ging: Hope you're feeling good!

Bbriss: Hope all is well, don't you start the transfer cycle soon?


AFM: Don't ask me why but apparently estrodial and lupron together makes me lose weight and my boobs finally deflated (seriously, a full cup size). WTF?!? I feel normal again, which is odd, because everyone complains about Lupron. I have my ultrasound checkup on Monday to see how the lining is doing. Let's hope it's fattening up, especially since I missed my lupron period.


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## Jazzbird

Blythe said:


> Bliss - the chinese calendar thing is something I'm still don't fully understand. My last chinese doc asked when i usually awoke during the night and i said between 1 and 2 and he said that corresponded with my liver and so that is where i had an imbalance.
> 
> re high doses of Vit C see this:
> 
> https://www.wikihow.com/Force-a-Period
> 
> although you mentioned before it is good for increasing progesterone - so many conflicting things out there. Have you been taking the vit C these last two cycles?

Hello ladies - just thought I would offer my take on this . So the time of the liver is 1am to 3am. But it is important to remember that it is the Chinese medical functions of the liver not the western medical functions of the liver that they are referring to. The Chinese medical functions of the liver are:

- to ensure smooth flow of Qi. When this function is interrupted, you can experience pmt, mood swings, irritability, emotional outbursts. It's no surprise that a lot of women struggle to sleep well the week before their period if their liver Qi is stuck or stagnated. 

- stores the blood. Often if you are liver blood deficient you can also find it difficult to sleep - particularly after menstruation

- houses the ethereal soul - the "Hun". Thus part of the soul is said to live on when we die and relates to our life purpose. The Hun is said to rest in the blood at night. If you are blood deficient then the Hun can wander off causing dream disturbed sleep, sleep walking. The Hun also relates to our life purpose and can be disturbed if we are feeling unfulfilled


There are a few other functions but I suspect your practitioner is either saying you are blood deficient or Qi stagnated causing you to wake in the night between 1 and 3.

When I had severe liver yin deficiency I could only fall into a deep sleep if I went to sleep between 1 and 3. Chinese medicine is more conceptual than symptom led so it makes sense generally to have problems sleeping at this time if you have some kind of liver imbalance.

There is a good website that explains it all far better than me!

https://chinesemedicinebristol.blog...gans-in-traditional-chinese-medicine.html?m=1


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## Breaking Dawn

Briss..Blythe...i always enjoy reading your discussions. In learn so much..thx ladies! :). 

Blythe...i looked up the fitbit..ive seen them in the shops here but I didn't realize that's what it's called. go 10,000 steps!!

Melly....how are you doing.. when is your transfer again? by the way, I did not have any bad reaction to lupron...maybe my dose was too low...but i was prepared for some side effects and i didn't feel anything!.

AFM...I'm 6dp5dt (=11dpo). to test or not to test..is the struggle in my head. Eeeek. 

Melly...agonizing is right. oh and I'm on progesterone supps 3 X a day....so no PIO shots for me!!


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## melly2

Breaking: That is such a hard call on whether to test or not. You planning to test this weekend? 

My transfer is a week from Monday, assuming my ultrasound is good on Monday.


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## Blythe

Jazzbird - many thanks for the link - there is plenty there that rings a bell with me. i have always had issues with my liver - i used to drink chrysanthemum flower tea which i brought from chinese places. I'm not sure it helped or not but i remember the 'Barefoot Doctor' used to recommend it. I have always had issues with anger - and big ones with low self esteem - less so nowadays as i am better able to step away and react later. Not always but much more so than when i was in my 30s.

i see you are having a girl - lovely :) - they have the cutest baby/toddler outfits. I hope the sickness has gone or at least eased up :flower:


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## Breaking Dawn

Fx for you Melly....hope everything looks good for your transfer date. 

I see a lot of ladies test on 6dp5dt...which is today for me. 

I just want to live in ignorance...and not see a bfn..therefore not test....do u know what I mean?!..lol

Ging...when did you test? 

Sorry to be a pain ladies and keep stressing about this....


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## Blythe

Breaking - as i said to gingmg - nothing is going to happen to you either today or whenever you decide to test that you cannot handle. You are a trooper and have done everything you could do and now it is out of your hands. If you are pregnant then that is amazing - if you are not then we are here for you and you will grieve the loss and you will come back and you will try again. 

i dearly hope that you will have the best outcome as you certainly deserve it :flower:


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## alison29

Briss I am taking 2 mg of myo in morning and 1 at night (it makes me gassy if i take 2 and 2)..Be sure to subtract the fiber from the carbs when you are calculationg what the net carbs are. I have been eating too many almonds. Trying to stay away from milk. I add a tiny bit of heavy whipping cream (no carbs) to unsweetened almond mild vanilla flavor with a bit of stevia it's super good...
I take 500 n a c three times a day. I noticed a change for the better in skin and in mood with the NAC/myo combo. Not ground breaking but better. I also am off my antidepressant so to notice improvement in mood is good.

How much are you taking of the myo? I have been buying it as pregnitude off walgreens internet site..the drs hear recommend it so why not?


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## alison29

Briss it does sound like progest def with the spotting. Stress, caffeine , too much excercise basically anthing that raises our cortisol levels makes us produce less progesterone. Last month and this month I am about 12 dpo I have been using the natural progesterone cream. I really felt a difference in mood last month but my cycle was a little heavier (flushing maybe?) should be opposite. I will let you know how it goes this month. My colleagues FS told her that 40 mg caffeine in her tea once a day was ok but to quit running and any other stressful excercise. Gentle walking not even speed walking was ok.


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## alison29

Good luck Breaking...


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## Breaking Dawn

Blythe...thanks for your uplifting words. gives me so much strength!!!!

Alison...thx hun!


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## Briss

*melly*, losing weight sounds good to me actually. good luck with your ultrasound on Monday, hopefully your lining is nice and thick getting ready for implantation. 

*Jazzbird*, thanks for your input! much appreciated, as always! baby girl is so wonderful! you must be thrilled! 

*Breaking Dawn*, I'd personally wait until 12/13 DPO just because it can still be too early and it will be hard to get a false bfn. praying this is it for you but in any case we are here for you.

*Blythe*, thanks for the tip I stocked up with organic and most importantly fragrance free shampoos, conditioners and deo. now where do you buy your washing powder and liquid? i think that's the next stage for me to go organic and toxins free. 

*alison*, I take 1 gm twice a day at the moment but will increase to 4 gr a day once I receive my myo in powder form. I wanted to buy pregnitude but it did not let me when I entered my UK address i think you can only buy it in the US. I've been only taking it two days so cant tell the difference yet. actually to think of it, I started taking it yesterday and today my cm started getting a hint of colour pointing towards spotting -could this be related to myo?

the website is calculating my total proteins and carbs etc so I am not sure how they do it, I just get total numbers for each food, meal and overall for the day.

why are you staying away from milk? I am doing the opposite cos everywhere I hear that whole milk is good for egg quality so i started drinking considerably more of it.

I decided not to take N-ACETYL CYSTEINE at the moment. in my book it was included as one of antioxidants but i am taking vit C and E already so i think this should be enough.

can you ask your friend FS if swimming is OK? so far I have been going once a week and only managed about 1/2 km so I am very slow but i am hoping to increase it to 3 times a week and swim for about 1 km.

interestingly since I stopped sugars and started eating more varied food I do not have any sugar cravings. this is extraordinary cos i was expecting feeling really bad without my usual chocolate (and i also recall how i was badly craving it last year when i was trying to lose wight and reduce sugars) but I feel nothing. I really enjoyed a pint of whole milk with a piece of rye bread for dinner (although that's the only piece of bread I had in a week). i do not recognise myself. is it possible that protein rich food is having this effect? I like it.


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## Blythe

Alison - how much of the prog cream are you using? Do you apply once or twice per day?


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## gingmg

Breaking- good luck in whatever you decide to do. I tested + at 10DPO but my best friend didn't test + until the day after she missed her period (15-16DPO?) Blythe is right, nothing is going to happen that you cannot handle. I think I said those words over and over and over to myself for days/weeks on end. And it's true. Even if something is painful, even if it difficult, even if it isn't the outcome you were hoping for, you will warrior through and-in time- find yourself on the other side. Having said that- FX and good luck!!! I have everything crossed for you.:flower:


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## Breaking Dawn

I'm shocked.....I thought I would cry the day I saw this....but I'm just so so shocked.

Bought the tests...waited until I had to pee and told myself... Can't do anything this is out of my hands.....if it's a bfn i just want to be able to handle it.

I then I watched the 2nd line appear.....
 



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## Wish4another1

Awesome breaking!!!! Congrats!!!


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## Blythe

Breaking - amazing news and a very strong positive too. Congratulations :happydance:


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## Briss

Breaking Dawn said:


> I'm shocked.....I thought I would cry the day I saw this....but I'm just so so shocked.
> 
> Bought the tests...waited until I had to pee and told myself... Can't do anything this is out of my hands.....if it's a bfn i just want to be able to handle it.
> 
> I then I watched the 2nd line appear.....

congratulations!! :happydance: :happydance: :happydance: what a great line! you must be so happy, you totally deserve it.


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## Breaking Dawn

Thanks wishing!, Blythe and Briss :hugs:

It's 6am here and I woke up 30min ago to pee...which I never do ...and now I can sleep.

I'm still trying to believe the 2nd line....feel so greatful


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## gingmg

Breaking- yay!!!!!! I am sooooooo happy for you! Congratulations!!!


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## Jazzbird

Congratulations Breaking! I'm so thrilled for you. Enjoy this moment!

The domino force is in full effect - me, Ging, Breaking - hoping for all the acupuncture thread ladies to fall pregnant too soon!

Keep the faith everyone


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## melly2

Breaking: Woo-hoo!!! Congratulations! What a huge relief. I'm so happy for you. That is quite a strong second line, too. ;-) Yay!!!! Good vibes on this thread!


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## Breaking Dawn

Thx Ging, jazz and melly.


Melly...Fx for you! 

I'm exhausted today feel like staying bed


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## terripeachy

Congrats Breaking!!! You deserve to stay in bed. I'm sure it's been an emotional day. H&H 9 months!!!


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## Briss

started spotting on 10DPO :( what is this?? really upsetting. anyway, Randine Lewis seems to suggest pre AF spotting indicates QI deficiency, blood stasis or pathological heat. is excess, empty heat the same as pathological heat? I wonder if the came issue can cause me to ovulate early and spot in TWW? I do not know but to me it seems like two different unrelated problems. I am quite sure I am QI deficient but most practitioners were concentrating on my Yin deficiency and only one was practically staffing me with ginseng (which I think the main herb for QI deficiency so may be that was her diagnosis?). Others did not prescribe ginseng. I will ask Dr E but I am pretty sure he will not be including it in my mix based on his diagnosis. I wonder if I should start taking it on my own?

I did have some blood stasis in the past but that's one thing that acu and herbs fixed very quickly I think. and this is the first thing that you notice when you look at your AF and mine changed a lot. 

Now, Randine Lewis says that actually spleen QI deficiency is characterised by prolonged follicular phase which is definitely the opposite of me. confusing: am I or am I not showing signs of Qi deficiency? she says that for spleen QI deficiency I should avoid carbs/sugars and Dairy! Obviously with my new diet I started drinking lots of whole milk so wonder if I should stop now. 

I was reading accounts of ladies with pre AF spotting and it seems like majority have rather high progesterone levels. also some were successful with Vit B complex which I am now taking. I do not want to start on progesterone cream just yet because I want my body to produce enough progesterone on its own.


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## Jazzbird

Hi Briss

Sorry to hear you are spotting early.

I've looked up short luteal phases using the Chinese Medical fertility textbook recommended to us. Its a brilliant book. I think I have the Randine Lewis one too somewhere, but the problem with looking up each symptom and trying to fix each one without considering the person's other patterns of illness is that one pattern of illness can cause another.

In my text book, the optimal luteal phase is ideally 12-14 days long. Pronounced Kidney weakness is thought to be responsible for a luteal phase of 5 or 6 days. Note that it says the kidney weakness of someone with a luteal phase of 10 days is "mild".

In my opinion (and without having seen you!), your primary issue is of Kidney Yin deficiency. Prolonged Kidney Yin deficiency will almost certainly lead to Kidney Yang deficiency which is why you are seeing a slightly short luteal phase. Usually in this instance there are herbal treatments which reinforce kidney yang through kidney yin. In fact I took this formula: You Gui Wan. 

In answer to your queries re: heat. Empty or false heat occurs through deficiency of kidney yin. Excess heat occurs through prolonged liver qi stagnation, drinking too much or excess consumption of hot spicy or greasy food.

You must trust your practitioner  Its hard I know. But you could ask him what his treatment principles are. He might say:

1) Clear excess heat (to stop premature ovulation)
2) to Reinforce Kidney Yin (to prolong ovulation) in follicular phase
3) to Reinforce Kidney Yang through Kidney Yin in luteal phase

Or something like that. But if he is using acupuncture, he'll use points such as Kidney 3 or Bladder 23 that boost kidney yin and kidney yang.


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## Jazzbird

p.s. so the treatments for clearing excess heat and clearing empty heat differ in that with clearing empty heat you need to also reinforce kidney yin.


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## Jazzbird

p.p.s always good to limit sugar and dairy if at all possible anyway, but that is more to do with spleen qi deficiency and damp.

Better to focus your diet on kidney boosting food for yin and to stay away from any heating foods - hot spicy foods, too much coffee, alcohol etc.

Also good to tell your practitioner about all the other supplements you are taking. It might be better to just let them all go and focus on one treatment at a time as you don't know how they are all interacting.


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## Blythe

i have just returned from acu and she did my pulse and said my kidney function was weak and that my IVF was unlikely to work.

i feel really done with it all - i have spent over 2k with these people over the course of 1.5 years and my kidney function is still rubbish.


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## Briss

Jazzbird, thank you! where would we be without you! Do you think pre AF spotting means short LP? I do not count spotting as CD1 so my LP did not really change it's still 13/14 days but the last 4-5 days I have a tiny amount of light brown spotting 1-2 a day. it's more like my usual creamy CM but now it has colour which is not normal for me.

thanks for explaining the difference between excess and empty heat, It was never quite clear to me, now it's making more sense.

Blythe, it's so disappointing. I can totally understand. did they explain why the treatment is not giving you the desired progress? I am back to reading healing with whole foods trying to figure out what to eat for yin deficiency. 

I managed to force myself into the swimming pool but once I got into the water it was so great, I was lucky it was empty so I had the entire lane all to myself! Lovely. no wonder I managed to swim 1 km!

I know that dreams in TWW can be quite random but mine started to get real weird. I was chatting with a very famous movie star (who is no longer living) who complained to me that she was getting bfns with FRER (in her time there was no such thing as FRER) so I suggested she used cheapie, she did and she got a bfp! (in real life she died childless actually) how weird and scary is this? cant shake it off. i wont tell you who that was you will laugh your socks off...


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## Blythe

Was it Marilyn Monroe?

Well done on the swim - that is a great thing to do on a sunday afternoon! It makes such a difference having a clear lane - i was never fast enough for the fast lane but too fast for the slow lane so always got stuck behind really slow people doing doggy paddle.

i received no real explanation - they did say others responded quickly and i was just very slow to respond and that i needed to go back onto the herbs. I went in there feeling good but left feeling really bad and really upset. I suspect they are quite right and that this IVF will fail. My body just acts differently now - i always used to think about sex but now hardly ever - maybe its just too late for me. i hate all this - so many years just obsessing with this stuff. I'm so tired of it all now.

To top it off they started saying about how they had helped some other women get pregnant recently - don't they understand i get no comfort from that information at all.

i am going to go and jump around in my front room to try and get my steps up to 10, 000 and then find a funny film to watch!


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## Briss

Blythe, you know me too well, how did you guess??? I am nervously googling seeing a dead celebrity alive and nothing good comes out. when I woke up my first reaction was that it just shows how hopeless it is even a dead person is more likely to get a bfp but now I am worried I saw her and not smb else precisely because she did not have any children. that troubles me. It might be something to do with the fact that I tested last night. I was totally cool with it (at least I thought I was) because with the spotting and all I just wanted to rule out chemical so I could concentrate on other possible causes. 

I am quite shy to move to the fast lane cos I am not fast enough but I do occasionally see men not much faster than me happily going straight there

is it possible that meds you were taking to down reg have depleted your kidney yin? it's such a shame that you did not get to stims cos I am quite sure you would have produced enough good quality eggs. maybe take some time to recover after this? you are not old yet, you have stats of 30smth. you were just not lucky with the protocol, it did not work for you. personally I would not count your attempt as a failed cycle. you may still get pregnant naturally but I'd try to do at least one full IVF. It just has to work for you one way or the other and better soon. 

I so hate it when they start listing their success stories, it's so irrelevant. Dr E also mentioned that he had a woman with FSH of 60 which was reduced to 10. sounds crazy but I did not ask for details. one thing I noted is that I have been aware of my ovaries much more since the acu session last week. I do not know if that's good or bad but I can feel my ovaries a lot of the time.

I am watching spider man....


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## kits

Hello ladies, it's nice to see you all know each other quite well :)

I found this thread via a quick search of acupuncture as I'm considering it. I don't think I'll be able to read through all 350 odd pages, but I'm sensing that the general consensus believes it to be a good idea?

I've been TTC since sept 13, ntnp during the 2013 summer. I got pregnant immediately in sept. but unfortunately had a mc on nov 25th.

After 2 cycles, my darling OH & I began again in Feb, but I think I have worked myself up too uch so haven't really been very lucky.

So in an attempt to shed the 'working myself up' I think I may just give acupuncture a go (and possibly get rid of the cat, haha!).

Are there any particular questions or things I should consider before ringing up the nearest center?

By the way, I'm not sure how relevant this is but I'm going to turn 34 in June. OH is 34, turning 35 in June too :D


Thank you! And best wishes to all of you :D


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## Breaking Dawn

Briss....I had the weirdest (sometimes scary) dreams during my tww. I would wake up from them and then have trouble falling back asleep. One was based on an old movie called bone collector,...and the opening scene is an abduction on a cab and that kept happening to me over and over again. Another hand to do with a haunted house....I was stuck in it. 

Kits....welcome ! This is a great supportive group of ladies. I know I found my way here the same way as I was starting acu and looking for support!


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## Blythe

Briss - i knew it would be someone well known and i thought of characters that would make me laugh but really it was just a lucky guess :)

i have been feeling quite hollow lately - the sort of crap paranoid feeling i used to get after drinking too much and making a fool of myself in my 20s - maybe it is linked to my crap kidney function. i wondered yesterday if the fact that i have recently bitten my nails off having grown them over the winter was linked to dropping the vitamin D supplements. When i was looking at the reviews on Amazon for various brands it is quite extraordinary the effect it does have on some people.

I should be starting short stim IVF when i get my next period - so first week of May. They will do the scan and check to see if the cyst has gone. Despite being told i had a triple layer lining i had a very light bleed this cycle but i have had no symptoms of excess oestrogen so i am hopefully it has gone. My new drugs are being delivered tomorrow.

i think it is good you can feel something in your ovaries - as far as i am concerned any feeling is good as it shows your body is responding to the treatment. 

Breaking - the Bone Collector is one of those films i have seen on film channels for years and never watched until quite recently. That scene where the couple are kidnapped by the cabbie is terrifying - what an awful dream to have :( BUT what a great film - i really enjoyed it!

Kits - welcome. I am sorry about your miscarriage. For some women chinese medicine seems to be a miracle magic medicine and i have seen countless posts where women have responded quickly to the treatment and become pregnant within weeks.well its either the medicine or it was just their time. It can help balance hormones, increase blood flow to your reproductive organs etc etc

As you have been trying again for a couple months i am sure you are already having timed intercourse and know about your fertile period etc and are taking a decent pre natal supplement so this may be something that could help your chances. Lots of women find it relaxing and i guess taking a more relaxed approach to this stuff is the best way forward. 

If you decide to try acupuncture and herbs it would be best if you could get someone that has an interest in/good knowledge of fertility related matters - there seems to be plenty out there. Do report back if you decide to go ahead - i am always really interested to see how others get on with it.

:flower:


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## Jazzbird

Hi gals

Blythe - I'm sorry to hear about what your acupuncturist said. I don't think I remember but are you going for acupuncture every week? How long have you been going for? Are you taking herbs as well? Personally I feel that herbs are essential for long standing issues. Do you know what his/her primary diagnosis is? 

Briss - its an interesting one - when to count first day of period. I usually count the first day of full flow but usually spot the day before. So that would make your luteal phase good. However, I think spotting can be a sign of a luteal phase issue - but which pattern that is probably depends on your overall diagnosis. I think general kidney deficiency can cause spotting. What is your temperature like? Does it drop when you spot? Or is it still elevated? If it drops, I would probably lean more towards Kidney Yang deficiency caused primarily by Kidney Yin Deficiency.

It is not easy working out diagnosis, but I am sure your practitioner will have the answers. Do ask him - why am I spotting before my period? Is this a sign of spleen qi deficiency? Or is this a sign of Kidney deficiency? If he says the latter - ask him which specific pattern - is it Kidney Yang deficiency? If so, why do you have Kidney Yang deficiency (suspect he might say its because you don't have enough Kidney Yin in the first half of the cycle to adequately transform into Yang).

Chinese Medicine always seeks to redress the imbalance in the most eloquent way possible. So they will try to get to the root cause, rather than scatter gun all the patterns that a person might have if that makes sense. 

Have you decided on the herbs? I really can't recommend them enough for long standing problems. In fact, I would rather go to a good herbalist myself than an acupuncturist - although acupuncture is good for fertility because of the changing treatments required throughout the cycle. I'm so pleased he is offering you powdered herbs as they are much cheaper and easier to take.


Welcome Kits! This is a great thread - the ladies are just lovely on here and not just for acupuncture chat - for general love and support - they are the best!

Sorry to hear about your mc, that's really tough. I'm not sure you should rush straight to acupuncture either - you've not been trying that long and it usually takes on average 1 to 2 years. I would probably start by charting your cycle and taking ovulation tests (if you haven't done this already) to make sure you are trying at the right times. If you post your charts online to fertility friend, I can always look at them (I'm an acupuncturist) and would say if I thought your cycle could do with some fine tuning from an acupuncture perspective.

I'd also suggest if you are going to go through any tests - to send your OH off first as its pretty black and white to see if there is a sperm issue. But do tell the doctors you've been trying for a few years because they won't test your OH until you've been trying a while. Women are just so much harder to diagnose and treat in Conventional Medical terms - so easier to send him off first to rule him out.

But you are just 34, so you have time, so I'd try and get to know your cycle well and enjoy trying for a bit.


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## Jazzbird

p.s. also Briss, there isn't a specific Kidney Qi deficiency pattern of illness, but because the Kidneys are said to be the life battery - they can have a knock on effect to other organs. So your general kidney weakness could also affect the Spleen, causing Spleen Qi deficiency. But by treating the Kidneys it should also boost the spleen. I think you also mention he treated Spleen 6 "three Yin Meeting" - and he probably has also treated Stomach 36 - which is considered the greatest tonification point in the body for Qi. So this should boost your general Qi too. 

I think it will be interesting to see what he prescribes on the herbal front as that will give you an indication of what he sees as the more primary, long standing problem.


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## Blythe

Jazzbird - many thanks for your message - the only real explanation i have ever received is that my kidneys are weak. I have only ever gone to chinese practitioners and their english is just not good enough for them to say what else is going on. I do try to engage to find out as much as i can but its usually weak Ki yang and yin and issues with spleen. They always treat the same points.

I did the powdered herbs last year for 4-5 months and then went onto pills - no difference whatsoever in any aspect of my life. I simply could not justify the expense when i could feel no difference. I would go onto the pills again but do they really make any difference?


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## Blythe

Briss - as you know i have been taking ubiquionol form of COQ10 for some months and have tried most brands!

i originally brought this one for £40 [and it was reduced] in my local health food store:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B001PYZCZI/ref=cfb_at_prodpg

this link will take you to a US seller but if you see on the right hand side there are other sellers - the 'Discount Vitamins and Herbs' lot are selling these for £20 plus a £2 P&P. I received them within 3 days and they are the best out there for a fraction of what they are being sold for in the shops. In addition they have 20% free at the moment so you will get 60 not 50 soft gels.


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## melly2

Kits: Welcome! lots of great info here. 

Hope everyone is doing well today!

AFM: Had my ultrasound this morning; lining looks nice and thick. We're all set for transfer next Monday. Wow, can't believe it's almost here.


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## Briss

*Kits*, welcome! I hope your stay will be a short one and you move to pregnancy boards very quickly! I am sorry about your miscarriage, that's so tough! I totally agree with Blythe that a practitioner who understands fertility is a great option. the rest I defer to Jazzbird's opinion.

*Breaking*, this is so scary!!! the Bone Collector - I've never seen it because it's just way outside what I can handle. Just to give you an example I am still recovering from The Omen which I saw like 20 years ago and apparently it is not that scary. well it was for me and I still have nightmares  and quite often I sleep with my lights on you know just in case. how are you feeling? when is your first beta scheduled? 

*Jazzbird*, unfortunately I stopped temping a few months ago so no idea what my temp is like but I will start temping again next cycle. It's just so hard to work out diagnosis. but I guess it's safe to assume I have kidney yin deficiency. I have included your questions to my list and hopefully get some answers at my next appointment. I think I will give powered herbs one more go. one thing Dr E said is that he will be concentrating not on the cause of my problems but on fixing the symptom i.e. high FSH I am not sure how it's possible to fix it without dealing with the cause but I suppose he knows better. 

*Blythe*, generally, I would go for powered herbs or none at all. I just do not trust these pills. I am still talking myself into trying herbs again. I will see what dr E is suggesting tomorrow but I am almost there. With me it's slightly different I will see the result in pre AF spotting or FSH levels or the length of my cycle and O day so I can tell if this is working or not. with kidney Yin it's just hard to say whether there is any progress. also dr E did say 3 months should be enough to see the changes so I will not go beyond that if nothing is changing. I may carry on with acu but herbs will probably have to go. However, your stim cycle is so close and I would not take herbs together with stim meds, considering that you have about 2 weeks before your next cycle I do not think it's worth starting now but I would look into acu clinics that provide services tailored for IVf so you would get pre and post transfer acu. 

btw, I am completely admiring your 10,000 steps a day regime! my body is pleasantly aching today after yesterday's swim - does not happen often to me cos I am so lazy to do any exercise 

I am looking into getting some bloods which may help me get the answers:

-Progesterone (not sure whether there is much sense to do this test on 13 DPO 1-2 days before AF cos obviously the levels will be coming down. I guess 10/11 DPO would be better but I am already late for that)
- Thyroid function tests (I did have these tests in the past and they were OK but apparently anti bodies levels can still cause mc and fertility issues even if they are generally within the norm but at a higher range. Mine was something like 2-2.3 and anything above 4 is considered a problem but one FS told me that anything above 2 can also be an issue in fertility so I just want to keep an eye on this)
Glucose level (not sure what the correct test is but I really want to know if I have insulin resistance issue)
Vitamin D levels (Blythe, re nails, I can totally see why you would be wondering about vitamin D. do you think you have enough calcium? I agree it must be related to some kind of vitamin-mineral deficiency possibly vitamin D or calcium. I know I am taking tonnes of vitamin D but I always wondered what my levels were and if I actually was deficient who knows may be I need much more than what I am taking, vitamin D deficiency can be the only reason for not being to conceive so I just really want to know. the test is around £45 but I think it's worth getting it done and knowing for sure. I mean even though I am supplementing at the moment it will give me some answers e.g. if my levels are low even though I take 4,000 a day  that's a problem, either my initial level was too low or my body is not absorbing my vitamins)

What do you think? am I getting overboard here? 

re, coq10, thanks for the links!! so useful cos coq10 seems to be the only proven one on egg quality so it's here to stay for a while and I need a lot of it. I just got delivered my new ubiquinol - https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B004VCOOUU/ref=oh_details_o00_s00_i01?ie=UTF8&psc=1 it was working out as the cheapest per 100 mg when I was making the order and my book recommended this brand. but I do love solgar brand so this would be my next option.


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## Briss

melly2 said:


> Kits: Welcome! lots of great info here.
> 
> Hope everyone is doing well today!
> 
> AFM: Had my ultrasound this morning; lining looks nice and thick. We're all set for transfer next Monday. Wow, can't believe it's almost here.

melly, this is so exciting!! are you going to do acu before and after the transfer? what's your strategy for TWW?


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## alison29

Congrats! Breaking..I am so happy you got to see that second line..justice finally..
you have earned it :)

About the milk well for one it has 12 carbs in one cup which is a lot of sugar (i think i heard someone compare it to the about in a can of pepsi if you were to have 12 ounces of milk.
Also I have issues with adult acne which maybe a sign of insulin resistance and the whole disfunctional ovaries creating more testosterone which leads to oil and acne IDK
also on a lot of sites i have read about all the hormones that are in milk (which are supposed to be there to help grow a cow ) but can't be good for acne or wacko hormone imbalance girl here. 
so the sugar in milk plus the growth hormones..If i am going to binge on sugar I would rather eat it you know? But heavy whipping cream has no carbs so can be used instead for somethings..I got a BFN this weekend and ate 3 muffins in row but i am over myself now and low carb things today. I want to stay under a 100 carbs a day now. IT's not ketosis but also keeps my energy and moods normal.


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## Jazzbird

Briss - definitely start recording your temp again - its the key diagnostic tool for Chinese Medicine. If you send me your chart, I can scan in the chart explanations from my book. I'm sure Dr E just wants to tailor his treatment to ensure that you see an outcome with your FSH reading. He might have a personalised treatment protocol that has worked specifically for this.

I agree on the powder v tea pills. Tea pills are great for mild deficiency, provided that they come from a reputable source and that is the main problem. Especially in UK, where patent formulas have been outlawed recently under EU regs. All you can buy now is what is on the black market or left over stock from established herbalists/acupuncturists. And you can never be sure what you are actually buying on the internet.

But herbalists can mix their own formulas with powdered herbs - so you can still buy these through a registered herbalist. Powdered herbs are much more potent than tea pills. I have no idea if it was coincidence or not, but the month I started with powdered herbs was the month I got pregnant. It was probably just coincidence though. Who knows.

Good luck with your transfer Melly!


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## alison29

I have the splitting nail problem too...I am trying iron now but you have to wait a while to see if it helps. I thought it was lack of protein in my diet at one point but I have been eating tons of protein since the begiining of dec..

Women with PCOS have a high incidence of vitamin D. Maybe it has something to do with the sugar insullin thing BRiss. I can't wait to hear what your levels are.

As for the glucose I think you go into the lab and they take bloods then you drink a sugary drink and they take more bloods then you wait and they take more bloods.


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## Breaking Dawn

Blythe...i really enjoyed that movie too...yes that scene is scary but the movie is so fascinating! 

Briss...i have love-hate feeling towards scary movies. I love to watch but then hate being scared after and do end up with the lights on. Lol

Melly...that is great news!!! so excited for your transfer!!!

Alison...thx hun!!

AFM...went in for my beta this morning. Even tho I've seen that second line on the hpt. I'm still nervous....this is where it all went down hill for me before....beta didn't rise and we had a chemical. 

But I did test yesterday and the hpt was just as dark and showed up quite fast.


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## Jazzbird

Blythe said:


> Jazzbird - many thanks for your message - the only real explanation i have ever received is that my kidneys are weak. I have only ever gone to chinese practitioners and their english is just not good enough for them to say what else is going on. I do try to engage to find out as much as i can but its usually weak Ki yang and yin and issues with spleen. They always treat the same points.
> 
> I did the powdered herbs last year for 4-5 months and then went onto pills - no difference whatsoever in any aspect of my life. I simply could not justify the expense when i could feel no difference. I would go onto the pills again but do they really make any difference?

Hmmm - I would look for an English speaking acupuncturist. Many of the Chinese acupuncturists can be excellent, but I'm not sure how regulated they are. If they come over and set up shop - you don't know where they have trained or where they get their herbs from. There were some reports that a one of them was found to have class A drugs in some of the mixes. Not sure how true this is, but I think it is safer to go to a good acupuncturist/herbalist that is registered with the British Acupuncture Council and has had to undergo training which is highly regulated. My OH went to a high street Chinese acupuncturist once and they were very good but they gave him the hard sell on the herbs and booking 8 or 9 treatments in advance & it put me off a bit.

I feel very strongly that you should have a rapport with your acupuncturist, and you should be able to ask lots of questions. Chinese Medicine is not easy to understand initially but there is very sound logic to it and with a good practitioner they can explain exactly what they are doing, why they are doing it and how long they feel it should take you to respond. 

Weak kidneys are extremely common - you need more than these one liners. Do you have kidney yin, or yang deficiency - for example. Because there are things you can eat and lifestyle changes you can make which are different depending on the diagnosis. Also the practitioner's attitude and care DOES make a difference to the treatment. If you feel nurtured and cared for, you are far more likely to have a positive experience and a positive outcome. I'm not saying its placebo, but that the patient-doctor relationship is still very important in determining the outcome. I think that just casually dropping in "IVF won't work, kidneys are too weak" is too abrupt and devastating for anyone, especially if they have been treating you and taking your money for a long time no questions asked. My acupuncturist will not keep treating a patient if they don't respond - he will give them referral options and advice if they don't conceive within a timeframe that he feels should be achievable. It is important that the patient has goals and timeframes and that you review them periodically. It is especially important with fertility where the treatment is never successful until conception has occurred. But if you can point to the chart and say: we need to get your temperature raised ideally by CD14 to X, and we need to see this elevated until CD28 etc. - the patient can at least see encouraging signs that they are getting better even if conception hasn't occurred.

Do you chart? What do your charts look like?

I personally would not recommend tea pills unless you are 100% sure that they have reputable ingredients and you are sure of your diagnosis. When I was severely yin deficient I took Giovanni Maciocia's tea pills and they were brilliant although it took 6 months of daily tea pills and weekly acupuncture before I felt better. As I said above, the EU have outlawed patent (pre-mixed) formulas - so you can't get your hands on these sadly in UK anymore unless its left over stock from an acupuncturist/herbalist. But you can still get powdered herbs under a registered herbalist. 

There are lots of training colleges around the UK, which offer reduced priced herbal and acupuncture treatments.

Having said all of the above, I can completely understand your reticence with acupuncture. You've invested a lot of time and money into it and you haven't seen results. 

If you let me know roughly where you are, I would be happy to send you some recommendations. All I know is that there are lots of women who do go on to conceive that have been told there is no hope - so don't give up hope.

Hugs to you Blythe, you are such a nice lady and I'm so sorry you are going through this.

XXX


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## melly2

Breaking: Great news! Good luck on the beta! Can't wait to hear the results

Briss: I agree with that bloodwork. Definitely your progesterone, because of the spotting; you may be having a drop in those levels. Also, thyroid is always good to check.

Regarding my strategy, I really don't have one. Ironically, I decided not to do acupuncture because it was more stressful trying to actually get to the appointment. I think I'm going to stay the course and even exercise a bit during the TWW; probably just not too aggressively, but I will still do some running as I've read the blood flow is good. The day of the transfer, I was planning to go back to work afterwards (so busy at work right now); however, my doctor told me it's probably best to rest afterwards, so I guess I'll just work from home that day, and watch my beloved Boston Marathon.


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## Briss

*Breaking Dawn*, keep us posted on your beta but the strong second line is a good indication. 

*alison*, I take your point on lots of sugar in milk. it's a concern particularly when I am trying to cut all sugars but one thing at a time I need to make sure I can sustain no chocolate/sugar diet long term. I am glad you mentioned adult acne, I've been suffering since about 33 years very unexpectedly cos I never had acne as a teenager. I did not know it could be related to insulin resistance &#8211; that would explain so much, all those years of chocolate addiction! I've booked my HBa1 test which is a measure of your glucose levels over 3 months (usually only test it in diabetics). I was told to fast on the day before the test. I did check my testosterone levels but they were fine. re hormones in milk, I have heard that this is a big issue in the US but I think English milk is still pretty clean and mostly organic. I actually get through about 180-200 grams of carbs a day (mainly from porridge, fruit, yogurt, milk, avocadoes, nuts, dry fruit) compared to about 60-100 grams when I was on chocolate diet&#8230;. no wonder I do not have any cravings. it's confusing, isn't? I gave up ALL bad sugars and ended up consuming more carbs than ever before. let's see what my blood test comes back with and then I may need to have a chat with dietician. 

*Melly*, I totally agree that taking it easy at least a day after ET is a good idea.


----------



## gingmg

Melly- do you live in Boston? I do too. So excited for your upcoming transfer!

Breaking- how are you doing?


----------



## BBbliss

Happy Monday beautiful ladies! 

Breaking Dawn!!! Your post made me so happy to see, a picture IS worth a thousand words! Congratulation!!!! 

I was out of town for the past five days in Vegas for DF's birthday and just took a break from all TTC and life issues in general. It was nice to scape :)

Melly, it's all so close now! I started my lupron shots yesterday and now I know it will go fast for me as well. 

Briss, the blood work is a really great step. I had an extensive test done last year and I never asked to check my vit D levels. I really wish I knew it, I have D vit here at home but never took then, I want to know I need it before I start supplementing. I swam laps this weekend and felt Amazing!!!! I really want to pick up swimming again, it almost feels like meditation to me :)

Blythe, keeping my fingers crossed you can go right to a short IVF cycle with your next AF. I know you've been waiting for this for so long... You deserve to move ahead and get going with this baby making ;) and forget all the rest in the past. 

Ging, do you think you "look" pregnant now? I know it says the baby is the size of an olive but what KIND of olive? :D

Jazz, how do you look now? No more sickness? Do you feel it kicking? You know you are bringing good luck to this board ;) one by one :)

Btw, I just saw your post ging... I'd totally want to meet any of the great woman on this thread if anyone lived in my city or state. I've had some really great moments here and you ladies are great "friends" to have, in good days and bad :)


----------



## Breaking Dawn

Bliss...thanks so much :hugs:

Melly..yes relax after transfer. Also.. i didn't do acu either...i felt that was stressful to get appts coordinated and it was not going to help if I was feeling anxious. 

One thing I did take away from my TCM dr was to keep my feet warm...as cold feet = cold uterus. I often have cold feet so this was something that I had stuck in my head...so i wore 2 pairs of socks to the transfer and wore warm socks the entire tww also had hot water bottle on them at times. They were very warm the entire tww! 

AFM...the nurse just called me a short while ago. my beta is 356 and my progesterone is 60. 

She kinda worried me as this is what she said....that's quite high beta number.....oh and you transferred one. I was thinking you could have twins but that's not the case. So it's just high beta...we want to make sure it's doubling so pls come back on wed. 

so...is a too high beta not a good thing?!


----------



## alison29

Briss: here at this link is a good quicky article about both sugar and dairy etc 
https://drhyman.com/blog/2011/02/11/do-milk-and-sugar-cause-acne/#close


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## gingmg

breaking- its a high beta, but the number itself doesn't matter, just that it doubles. If you look up betas you will see such a wide range that is considered normal on any given week. Sometimes, embryos split, but identical twins are sooooooo rare, that i bet its just a strong beta. I had a hard time with the waiting to make sure everything is OK, jazzbird kept me grounded. Message me if you need extra support or write here. Congrats, this is all good news!

Bbliss- glad you enjoyed your trip. Your cycle should start going fast now. I also agree that swimming is like meditating, I think because its so breath focused. And I still just look bloated.


----------



## alison29

Breaking: I don't want to leave you hanging..Maybe it split into identical twins or maybe you just implanted at the earliest time possible I don't htink is a bad thing. I am sure you are googling it right now.


----------



## alison29

Blythe said:


> Alison - how much of the prog cream are you using? Do you apply once or twice per day?

Blythe sorry I missed your question before. I use emerita progesterone single application packets 20 mg at night and 20 mg in the morning. 

Okay so my cycle is much better this time around..I did notice my pms symptoms got a worse on my second cycle on it whereas the first one they got much better. I read that this is normal though and should equalize out and just help hopefully next cycle. Something to do with estrogen receptors getting resensitized by the progesterone. 

The single applications I like because there is no room for error and they cost the same as the tube so why not?


----------



## melly2

Ging: I live in Austin, however, I ran the Boston marathon twice. I love the city and love the marathon (so angry that jerks would try to sabotage it last year). 

Breaking: Good advice on the warm feet. My feet and hands tend to be cold, so I'll definitely take the advice! Great news on the beta!! I think too high is not a bad thing, just so that it doubles. All good news, IMHO. 

Bbliss: Soooo close! You're right behind me.


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## Briss

*Breaking Dawn*, excellent beta!! very healthy. i think they want at least 100 but 356 is just fantastic! so happy for you! 

good idea re warm feet. my hands and feet are always cold but I cant stand socks so I soak my feet in hot water every other day. I brought some thermal mud from NZ (it's a strange thing to bring mug from a holiday but I absolutely love it) so I do a light mud mask on my feet and then soak them in this muddy water. I hope it's good. anyway, I love foot soak and one of my chinese practitioners prescribed them to me on a daily basis. she suggested to add some herbs but I did not take them, not sure what they were.

*BBbliss*, so good that you managed to take some time away from it all, I hope you managed to recover a little bit and feel full of energy. I actually also thought about swimming being very similar to meditation mainly because of the breathing, you dip in and out of water and breathe out and in, very rhythmical breathing. also I tend to not engage my mind when i swim I just concentrate on the breathing with no difficulty so yes it does remind meditation. 

alison, thanks for the link am reading it now


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## Breaking Dawn

Thanks for the comments on my beta #. 

I think I implanted the day of transfer. I had two sharp pinches that evening...and then again the next day. 

Alison...oh gosh...identical twins...lol.


----------



## kits

Blythe said:


> Kits - welcome. I am sorry about your miscarriage. For some women chinese medicine seems to be a miracle magic medicine and i have seen countless posts where women have responded quickly to the treatment and become pregnant within weeks.well its either the medicine or it was just their time. It can help balance hormones, increase blood flow to your reproductive organs etc etc
> 
> As you have been trying again for a couple months i am sure you are already having timed intercourse and know about your fertile period etc and are taking a decent pre natal supplement so this may be something that could help your chances. Lots of women find it relaxing and i guess taking a more relaxed approach to this stuff is the best way forward.
> 
> If you decide to try acupuncture and herbs it would be best if you could get someone that has an interest in/good knowledge of fertility related matters - there seems to be plenty out there. Do report back if you decide to go ahead - i am always really interested to see how others get on with it.
> 
> :flower:

Ok, I'm quite impulsive. So last night I looked up 2 acupuncturists (is that the correct plural?), I called both of them up & when one answered I made an appointment with her for tomorrow at 8:30 am. Yikes! I don't usually turn up into work until 11:30am ish much less get out of bed by 8:30... !

I think I wanted to try something different this cycle, something for my body. AF was 3 weeks late and that really made me panic. I have been getting cramp like pains around my right ovary area for about 4 weeks so I went to see a doctor because AF wasn't turning up (she's ALWAYS on time) and I kept getting BFNs. I also started getting sore boobs, one night in particular they got really sore & hot for 2 hours that I just had to grab & massage them which I didn't even do while I was pregnant! Doctor told me I wasn't pregnant and that she thought I had a cyst but that I'll more than likely not get any treatment for it. I'm going in for a scan to confirm on the 24th.

So when I saw this post I thought, why not give acupuncture a try? Sounds just like what I've been looking for. I definitely feel like I need a reboot, realignment, hormone balancer & destresser so I can get back on my positive & focused roller coaster. These past 3 weeks when AF has been away on extended leave really knocked me off. I was very hormonally challeneged and my dear OH suffered the worst of it. The morning AF finally visited it was a surprisingly serendipity moment!

I think my biggest fear is whether I'm atually able to have a viable pregnancy rather than get pregnant.

I'll definitely update on the progress, I may do acupuncture on a weekly basis.

I haven't begun OPKs taking temps or anything other than keeping track of CM and AF. And yep, been BDing when OVIA would tell me I'm fertile. Although because of late AF I'm not even sure I ovulated?? Not sure I'm ready to do that much charting. I've added the ticker to my signature just in case.


Thanks again, I love that I found this thread & look forward to getting to know you ladies more & share the adventure with you! I just live in the UK so my response time may be slightly off.

:hug:


----------



## kits

melly2 said:


> Ging: I live in Austin, however, I ran the Boston marathon twice. I love the city and love the marathon (so angry that jerks would try to sabotage it last year).
> 
> Breaking: Good advice on the warm feet. My feet and hands tend to be cold, so I'll definitely take the advice! Great news on the beta!! I think too high is not a bad thing, just so that it doubles. All good news, IMHO.
> 
> Bbliss: Soooo close! You're right behind me.

Yeehaaaw!! :howdy:That's cool you live in Austin, I'm from Houston. I go back to visit my family at least once a year but if I can then I go twice


----------



## BBbliss

Kits, if you like sharing and sometimes over sharing, hehe, you've come to the right place. Welcome to the board, and hopefully we can all move to a "pregnant" page :)


----------



## kits

Oh wow, only just noticed how much I actually typed!


----------



## BBbliss

kits said:


> Oh wow, only just noticed how much I actually typed!

No no, I didn't mean it like that! Quite the opposite :) this is the place, we are all each others shoulder to cry on, friends who celebrate together, honest opinion and sincere advice... Where else can you find such incredible group of women ;)

We share, over share, We often TMI, but here, nothing is TMI, we are all women here, with all the insecurities, fears, determinations, love, hope, sadness and happiness... We are all in this together!


----------



## Briss

just been to my second acu appointment. I immediately asked about pre AF spotting but Dr E did not think it mattered. He said my FSH is a problem it's 7 out of 10 but in comparison pre AF spotting is 1 out of 10. it's just been there for 2 cycles and it may disappear the next cycle. in most cases it does not mean anything and wont stop you getting pregnant. He did not attribute it to any deficiency. but he did needle my Yintang (https://acutakehealth.com/why-are-you-doing-that-point-yintang ) and when I asked why he just said to empty your mind :) he probably thinks I am overthinking everything. interestingly my previous acu doc was always needling this point but not Dr Zhai. Also this time he did not needle ST 30, but did both St 6 and I think St 36. + heat lamp. It was very relaxing! he explained that my Yin deficiency is just due to aging and a natural process. but he is concentrating on empty heat that comes with kidney yin deficiency and excess/full heat that comes with liver Qi stagnation. he explained the difference with hot/cold taps (I hope I am getting this right): both heats basically are too much heat but empty heat is like hot tap that's overdoing it so needs to be reduced while excess heat is not enough cold tap so needs more cooling. Does that make sense? 

He looked at my vitamin list and generally said it looks OK, all good stuff but not necessarily useful for what I am taking them like egg quality (arguable, I say). He asked what fish was my fish oil made from? I had no idea, so much for doing lots of research. apparently, fish oils can be very different depending on the source, H&B's brand is practically useless and ideally we should go for more high end brands like solgar. 

I will get my powder herbs tomorrow (together with the recipe) and start from CD1. Interestingly, he said to take them only until O (finally smb is preparing different mix depending on where I am in my cycle) 

I asked if he can recommend a good diet for my deficiencies, excesses but he said it does not matter. as far as he can tell his clients are already eating well and doing far more than is necessary.


----------



## Breaking Dawn

gingmg said:


> breaking- its a high beta, but the number itself doesn't matter, just that it doubles. If you look up betas you will see such a wide range that is considered normal on any given week. Sometimes, embryos split, but identical twins are sooooooo rare, that i bet its just a strong beta. I had a hard time with the waiting to make sure everything is OK, jazzbird kept me grounded. Message me if you need extra support or write here. Congrats, this is all good news!
> 
> Bbliss- glad you enjoyed your trip. Your cycle should start going fast now. I also agree that swimming is like meditating, I think because its so breath focused. And I still just look bloated.

Thanks hun. 

This is hard....the tww is hard in its own way...but this is hard bc its like now I actually have something to lose and DH and i keep telling ourselves that we need to hit the upcoming milestones but it's so easy to get excited with a positive beta#. 

Praying for a great beta tomorrow so I guess it needs to be over 700. 

How r u doing? 

It's funny when I've watched your progress I've felt like it's gone so fast that you are already so far along. I bet it doesn't feel the same to u...lol


----------



## Blythe

Kits - where are you in the UK? I hope the appt went well this morning. Does your lady do herbs too? AF being 3 weeks late must have been a killer!

Jazzbird - i charted for a long long time and stopped when i started the IVF process. i have stopped temping. i have asked about the type of imbalance i have with regard to KI - and been told it is both KI Yang and KI Yin. The following points are nearly always needled during my acu treatments:

top of head, yintang point, ST 36, ovaries, couple of points on conception meridian on tummy, LI 4, SP 6 and a couple of others i cannot remember. there have been minor variations of this over the years but not too much. 

i did do the powdered herbs, for about 3 months with one practitioner and another 3/4 months with another - made no difference at all.

Things i do: avoid cold stuff, eat walnuts, raspberries, meat for KI yang in 2nd half of cycle.

i know i should return to the herbs but having invested so much financially and emotionally and seeing nothing change - not just in terms of fertility but no positive changes at all I'm struggling with it. Only a few weeks ago the doc held my feet and said i would have a son and then just 3 weeks later she held my pulse and said an IVF would fail. is it possible i am having a bad week - can my condition change week to week or is it all very gradual?

On the way back from the acu place on sunday i looked at some women pushing prams and they were really overweight and just really unhealthy looking [i know weight does not equate with healthiness but they looked like they lived on reheated stuff [sorry for being so judgemental but!]] and i thought i bet your Kidneys are weak too but you did it - maybe i do have a chance!

Briss - i like the sound of this guy and i like that you will be stopping the herbs at O - a nice balance! It is also great that he is explaining this stuff to you - so interesting and such a change.


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## Blythe

Briss - some simple stuff here but when i did get pregnant i was doing weekly qi gong classes and the kidney rubbing exercise, the arm swinging one and the drawing a circle with the hips i remember doing.

In the absence of chinese herbs i am going to do these 3 exercises every morning to see if that helps my kidney function!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-nwLtBe06wM


----------



## Blythe

alison29 said:


> Blythe said:
> 
> 
> Alison - how much of the prog cream are you using? Do you apply once or twice per day?
> 
> Blythe sorry I missed your question before. I use emerita progesterone single application packets 20 mg at night and 20 mg in the morning.
> 
> Okay so my cycle is much better this time around..I did notice my pms symptoms got a worse on my second cycle on it whereas the first one they got much better. I read that this is normal though and should equalize out and just help hopefully next cycle. Something to do with estrogen receptors getting resensitized by the progesterone.
> 
> The single applications I like because there is no room for error and they cost the same as the tube so why not?Click to expand...

many thanks. I remember trying the cream over a year ago now - i was having continued issues with spotting in my 2WW - i tried a couple of brands. I cannot remember why i stopped using it but i no longer have big issues with spotting - maybe only a couple of days of it before AF. i think it was because i don't think it was working for me - i will have to dig it out and check the brand.

yours certainly seems to be working as you are seeing some noticeable changes


----------



## Briss

Blythe, that's interesting that we get more or less the same points needled. makes sense as we have yin deficiency but then what are the points for my heat?

Do not get me started on unhealthy people getting easily pregnant, I can just feel my excess/empty heat is heating up as I think about it :) My book says that good quality (and I assume young) eggs apparently even have ability to repair chromosomally damaged sperm in order to make a good embryo! sounds like some sort of focus pocus but I guess that&#8217;s what Dr Zhai was talking about when she said it's all down to a woman, a healthy woman can get pregnant even with a low sperm count husband. 

My spotting is getting darker, definitely brown today I may even get a very short 24 day cycle. not good.

Dr E's herbs are actually quite cheap, something like 20 pounds for 12 days. I think he is going to give me a different mix after O. I agree it's quite a difference when they explain what's going on. although he does not check pulse and he only looked at my tongue on our first appointment. Dr Zhai's doc was doing it every time and kept asking me about my bowel movements and what time I go to bed (any time after 11 pm and his face would change). Dr E said I would have weekly acu for the first month and then every fortnight (same as dr Zhai really, her treatment also was largely based on herbs and to a lesser extent on acu).


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## Jazzbird

Hi Briss - do you know what prescription for herbs he has given you?


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## Briss

thanks for the link re qi gong classes! will look into that. btw, don't you find his hands sexy? it's either that or AF is definitely on her way and my sex drive is back :(


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## Briss

Jazzbird said:


> Hi Briss - do you know what prescription for herbs he has given you?

I have not got it yet, hopefully tomorrow


----------



## Lookn4sunshin

I noticed a few mentioned ten plus sessions does this become expensive or is the cost reasonable


----------



## Jazzbird

Hi lookn4 - which country are you in? In uk acupuncture costs around £50 for first consultation and around £40 thereafter. Although I think London is more. Usually they ask you to go weekly for fertility unless they mix acu with herbs then it can be less. 

As for the number of treatments required - it depends on the diagnosis. I think mine would see you weekly for a year and then refer you on from there. Some people respond quickly and others who have long standing fertility issues take longer. 

It is expensive but worth a shot if you are considering ivf and have to pay privately for it. 

It can be cheaper if you go to an acu who practices in herbs as the powdered herbs cost perhaps £50 per month and they might ask to see you once or twice. But as always it depends on the diagnosis.


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## Jazzbird

Keep us posted on the prescription Briss - I will be interested!


----------



## Blythe

Briss - strange it is getting darker - have you tested again?


----------



## Briss

no need, it was the same last month it started as beige, then turned light brown then proper brown then AF.

I booked my bloods for tomorrow but not sure if I should do progesterone cos it will be 14 DPO, probably quite meaningless at this point


----------



## Briss

been looking at foods for kidney yin deficiency and apparently it has to be grains. I do like grains but I thought i was supposed to limit carbs and eat more protein. it's all so contradictory. raw fruit/veg is not recommended for yin deficiency - that's exactly what I am trying to eat more. so confusing.


----------



## Blythe

sorry to ask - I am sure you had thought of that - I'm glad you received some reassurance today re the spotting - I'm sure it will not be an issue within a month or two, if you don't fall pregnant beforehand. I have read so much and feel so exhausted trying to work stuff out that i have picked up a work of fiction for the first time in years. It is The Far Pavilions - my friend brought it for me ages ago and i just shelved it but I'm loving it. A tale of romance, intrigue and Indiain the olden days. 

i took receipt of my new IVF meds today - loads of boxes of cetrotide. Im stuck with two bottles of buserelin and no doubt there will be lots of the other stuff left over at the end. I hate having to fork out up front because obviously i cannot return the meds but have to pay for it all in advance. 

so much of what i read is contradictory when it comes to diet. I just take the bits that suit me and try to incorporate it as best i can.

i have been so good this week but DH brought home a 300g of praline choc he received from a client who has just returned from holiday - i avoided it for an hour then devoured most of it. The remainder is now in the bin covered in washing up liquid to ensure i don't retrieve it later :(


----------



## alison29

That is a good way to ensure you don't eat it..I have that problem too If it's in the house i will break down and eat it. If there is only healthy things like meat, eggs and brocolli then no way to cheat. Next week is easter too GREAT every holiday is another excuse to poison ourselves with sugar. Here is my confession: yesterday a lady at work had birthday cake. I was good and saved the cake (two pieces for my kids) then decided not to give it to them because they act like maniacs. I should have dumped them in a dirt pile then or squirted dishsoap on them because today I ate both pieces one at breakfast and one at lunch.


----------



## Briss

Blythe said:


> Briss - some simple stuff here but when i did get pregnant i was doing weekly qi gong classes and the kidney rubbing exercise, the arm swinging one and the drawing a circle with the hips i remember doing.
> 
> In the absence of chinese herbs i am going to do these 3 exercises every morning to see if that helps my kidney function!
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-nwLtBe06wM

thanks! the exercises seem quite simple, it's just a question of building them into my daily routine. I completely failed to incorporate yoga into my life. at least I am having some minor success with swimming.


----------



## Blythe

Briss - yes re the earlier hands comment. I find it a real turn on when men describe things with their hands. I remember vividly a time many years ago being sat in a cafe in Amsterdam and this chap was selling old atlases. He pulled out one and was showing me the various maps and pointing out various points of interest on them - my whole body was throbbing with desire :) I cannot remember anything about him other than his hands!


----------



## Briss

*Blythe*, re testing I did not actually think about it because AF approaching was quite obvious to me. It's hard to find the right words to explain how I know it's coming but I definitely do. when spotting started I did wonder about a possible chemical so I tested and was going to test again on about 12/13 DPO but by then it was quite obvious that it's not pregnancy related. Did my bloods today but did not do progesterone. May take a while to get the results because of bank holidays.

The Far Pavilions sounds like a good reading, would be a good option for TWW after ET. 

the good thing about Create is that you buy meds as you go so I have very little left from my failed cycle. 

re hands, I am glad it's not just me! 

*alison*, I used to buy myself a large cake (1-2 kg) on Friday eve and that would be my entire meal for the weekend&#8230; so two pieces is not that bad considering that you are otherwise being very healthy. 

*afm*, my face (chin in particular) started to break out, a clear sign of AF/hormone change &#8211; liver qi stagnation? 

I am still going strong on no chocolate/sugar/white bread/pasta etc front, anxious to get my insulin resistance blood results but hopping it's not hopeless. I would really like to have a chat with a dietician about what you should not eat sugar wise. I have a relative who is diabetics and she cant even eat grapes. I wonder if I can eat grains, yogurt, milk and fruit as much as I do or is it no different insulin wise to stuffing myself with chocolate. I am no expert on dieting but my most recent experience tells me that everything I knew about myself was not accurate. It was a well established fact that from as long as I remember I could never ever live without chocolate or sweets for more than a day and now this theory is just falling apart because I think I was just not getting enough food/nutrients/energy or something else hence the reason for craving chocolate all the time. These days when I start getting these cravings I eat food and they go away! Still not sure if I am doing it right but an apple (or nuts) can satisfy my sugar craving after a meal (it had to be a piece of chocolate before and nothing else would do). I can totally understand re praline choc but interestingly I have tonnes of chocolate at home and I am fine with it. I am so surprised and even curious because it's just not me (the old me would buy lots of choc and store them at home because if i happen to find myself craving it in the evening and there is nothing at home I may not survive until the morning and could easily go out at night looking for sweet stuff &#8211; clearly some form of addiction). Let's see where this is going to take me.


----------



## Breaking Dawn

Well last night was very eventful !!!

I went to sleep early at 930pm....DH and I had gone out for an early dinner so I was exhausted by 9 and knew I would be up early for my 2nd beta this morning.

Around 1130pm...I wake up not feeling good....noxious ...pretty soon it gets worse and before I know it I'm head over the toilet throwing up. I tried to get back into bed but few min I'm at the toilet again.....so then I just end up sitting there. I was having flash backs to drinking nights and lying by the toilet promising myself I'm never going to drink that much again....lol

Finally.... Felt better I grabbed a bucket and went to bed....I then had a few more times ....bc hey my tummy wasn't completely empty yet. Went to the toilet emptied the bucket. And then passed out exhausted in bed.

What a night...lol


----------



## Wish4another1

Breaking - hate to say it - but that is awesome you were sick :rofl:
FX for your 2nd Beta today!! :flower:


----------



## BBbliss

Breaking, that's quite a night all right, LOL what a good problem to have hehe, I hope you are felling better. Do you know today's beta result yet? 

I had a friend who was pregnant with twins and got so so sick that she lost weight in first tri. I do not envy that part, I was very lucky I never ever felt sick, I hope to find out again if it will be the same again.


----------



## melly2

Breaking: Poor girl! You definitely got the good ol' morning sickness. This is a strong one. ;-)

Briss: I'm glad I'm not the only one who has a sweet tooth. Me and dark chocolates are deadly! I've eliminated milk from my diet, but I always have a piece of dark chocolates in the evening. It's my dessert. ;-)

Blythe: Sounds like you're about to start the cycle. No doubt there are tons and tons of meds!

AFM: The litany of hormones boosts start today. A shot of progesterone oil (ugh), etrace, doxy, and medrol. I'm 100% a go for Monday. I decided I'm going to take Monday off. My husband is taking both Friday and Monday off, so I decided to at least take Monday off and relax after the transfer. Also, after reading other forums, I think I'm going to rest from running for at least a week after the transfer, just to make sure it sticks. ;-) I could stand to have a rest from exercise.


----------



## Breaking Dawn

Lol @ strong one. It sucks to be noxious and vomit...but I'm so happy if this means good news. I'll take it. 


Went in for my beta and went to talk to my nurse. Told her about the positive beta and she was so happy...she said a few of the nurses saw my 1st beta # and thought I was having twins...but then the one that called me had checked that I only transferred one. 

I also told her about my night of vomit, nausea and dizziness. She said it could be morning sickness but it's also very possible it's the prometrium. With hcg present now..the prometrium side effects are kicking up. She said to call if it doesn't improve.


----------



## alison29

That is great that the healthy carbs are satisfying you after meals.

I have read that chocolate cravings are magnesium deficiency sometimes. I am doing good today. Egg salad for breakfast and low carb whole grain wrap with no sugar peanut butter lunch. I think it's great to eat fruit when weaning off the "hard stuff" like cakes chocolate etc..Having said that listening to people that are keto or paleo ultra dieters fruit should be treated like candy because it is full of sugar. Strawberries are a good choice though at 8 carbs a cup! i think a medium apple has 23 carbs which isn't too bad either. For me i think i want to have a serving of fruit a day anyway to keep up energy. My friend on keto who is a food addict as well says after one month she is no longer hungry or craving much at all. your body gets good at dipping into your fat stores for enery after a while. I am not sure i am ready for 20 carbs a day or less yet. I have had twenty and it is only lunch time.


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## alison29

I am happy for you breaking dawn that you are sick! that is good news high hormones. Try to keep your meals with lots of protein to keep your blood sugar stable and see if that helps. It's just another theory of this low carb doctor's. I don't know i craved french fries when i had morning sickness which is carb city :)


----------



## Breaking Dawn

alison29 said:


> I am happy for you breaking dawn that you are sick! that is good news high hormones. Try to keep your meals with lots of protein to keep your blood sugar stable and see if that helps. It's just another theory of this low carb doctor's. I don't know i craved french fries when i had morning sickness which is carb city :)

Thanks for the tips. :)


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## Wish4another1

Breaking - How long till you get 2nd Beta results... Im anxiously waiting to celebrate with you!! :hugs:


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## Breaking Dawn

I just got a call from the nurse. My 2nd beta is 792.3 (from 356). My progesterone is now 29 (dropped from 60).

Not sure what to think bc they want me back for a third beta..


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## Wish4another1

Well it doubled - they should give you some progesterone supplements or something... FX it all turns out ok!!! :hugs:


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## Breaking Dawn

Wish4...I'm already on progesterone and Prometrium. 

But last night I vomited my Prometrium pills....and the morning dose was too early for my bloods. nurse didn't say anything so I'm just taking it as it is.


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## Wish4another1

Breaking - Im sorry I didn't realize that!!! But still good news about the doubling!!! :happydance:


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## gingmg

Breaking- yay!! Having the third beta is routine, not because they are concerned. No advice on the progesterone. I've heard varying numbers as far as the goal to stay above, mostly I've heard around 10-20 or higher. You are doing great!


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## Breaking Dawn

Thanks Wish4.

Ging....ok that makes me feel better..that it's routine. The nurse kinda made it sound like it's still a concern so you have to come back. I wish I had my nurse call me...but the bloodwork nurse is different each day. 

About the P level...thats what I had read to should be over 20.

Guess this worry / anxiety never stops...lol


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## BBbliss

Hang in there breaking, so far so good, I'm praying this is your success story right here!


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## Briss

breaking, great beta! I do not know about progesterone, its supposed to go up i think but then you were vomiting all night long it could have affected your results (possibly). also beta is the main test it's possible that progesterone fluctuates, at my clinic they do not even test it after ET, only beta. 

afm, AF is almost here but herbs were not delivered. It's so strange dr E just said they will probably be ready tomorrow. I wa supposed to start on CD 1. I do not understand how this works cos usually docs have all their herbs and they just prepare your mix while you are doing your 30 min acu. I guess he gets his herbs from somewhere else. I hope it's a trusted source.

My face broke out, it has not happened for quite a while actually I was beginning to hope my acne disappeared. but no such luck. considering that I had no chocolate for almost 2 weeks I guess my acne is hormonal.


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## melly2

Breaking: That's great news on the doubling! Not sure about the progesterone, but I'm sure, like the other hormones, it probably fluctuates a lot. Also, like Briss said, the vomiting may not have helped it, but you have strong beta, so that's great! Just stay the course.

Briss: Is your estrogen high right now; which could explain the acne?


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## Briss

melly, I do not really know what my estrogen is at the end of the cycle, i only know that it usually gets up to 200 by CD3.


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## kits

Ok wow, miss a few days and so much occurs!

Breaking, you poor thing! So happy for you though :happydance: Will keep you in my prayers that all goes smoothly :)

My OH has a bar so I stuggle sometimes to get a bit of free time as I also have my full time job. So you may not see me for a few days. I tried to get on before now but I found myself just trying to catch on all that was going on :haha:

I did end up going to acupuncture & the lady was lovely! She put 6 needles on me as it was my first session and she didn't want me to overreact. I asked her to give me some notes as I knew I'd struggle to remember what she was doing. Apparently I'm pretty stagnant so she's going to help my body flow better. I've attached a photo of the notes in case that makes sense to anyone! 

She's not put me on herbs because I haven't been tracking my temps & without that she didn't want to as she said the herbs will have an affect on my temps. So I'm now going to begin making note of that. I don't think today's temp is on my chart though? :shrug:

I go back on Tuesday :)

My first consultation cost £40, my following visits will be £30. I'm up north in Preston - who else is in the UK?
 



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## kits

Bris, there's so much to food nutrition. I love studying & discussing it. I'm slightly overweight but it doesn't bother me. My main goal is to take in good nutrition & do what I need to to reduce the acne I can get.

I have some intolerances, such as gluten, coffee, chocolate & dairy.. Although the dairy is better now I've cut out the wheat. Best thing I could've ever done!!!
All manufactured sugar is bad, but if you can't cut it out then reducing it would. I've had to pretty much cut it off entirely. I'm happy to discuss this topic with you, I've learned loads as I've had lots of tummy problems.

:hug:


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## Jazzbird

Briss - your acu probably gets his powdered herbs from mayway. Herbalists can usually mix and store raw herbs on site but go to suppliers for powdered herbs. I think it's quite a process to get them to powdered format. Also as the EU have outlawed patent mixes, there are now only a few suppliers that have gone through the rigorous process of certifying each raw ingredient. 

Mayway usually send them out in 1 or 2 days.

Breaking - sounds horrendous with being sick. I hope you feel better soon and everything progresses. It's so hard not to over analyse and it's worse with ivf because you have so many additional tests and test results to focus on and google. From what I have red hcg, progesterone and betas all vary massively with successful pregnancies. So as long as you are not bleeding heavily or experiencing painful cramping I would try to believe everything is ok. 

Unfortunately the anxiety never goes away. I constantly worry if I don't feel the baby move for several hours and you worry that the baby is healthy etc. It just never stops and probably gets worse after they are born checking they are breathing, then developing normally. 

I like reading all about the diet info on here. I personally load up on veg and salad, keep high GI carbs to a minimum and eat more veg protein. I try to keep animal protein to 20% or less as I feel it is a risk factor for cancer (if you're interested read "the china study" - it's fascinating). This is loosely based on Chinese medicine. I rarely eat fruit though - I think the sugars are quite high, esp bananas. 

Funnily enough, good quality lentil based curries and healthy versions of other Indian food are generally recommended as staple diet from a Chinese medicine perspective. I really feel it's not 5 a day but 30+. I treat it as a game - how many natural ingredients can I throw into a meal. 

I have never really dieted as I just try to follow this eating pattern with the odd norty treat thrown in. I'm more concerned about health than my weight. 

Although I have to say the morning sickness got me really bad for 20 weeks so I lived on THE worse diet of my life. I could only eat the odd hot cross bun slathered in thick butter, salt and vinegar crisps, weetabix and banana, and peanut butter on toast! I threw up anything that looked like a vegetable and had serious meat aversions. 

I'm much better now but still nauseous and bloat like mad after meals. As long as the baby is ok, I don't mind.


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## Jazzbird

Kits - looks like a nice post period treatment! Basically first half of your cycle is about building blood and yin to encourage release of a nice ripe egg ready for fertilisation. On your actual period they will encourage full discharge of the uterine lining. Then mid cycle, around ovulation they move energy to promote ovulation. In the last 2 weeks of the cycle they boost kidney yang to encourage implantation and production of progesterone.

Did she give you a temp chart? She won't measure your temp, it's something you have to do first thing when you wake up. Don't move or anything - as it has to be your resting temp on waking. Do it every morning and plot it on a chart. Your acu will use the temp info to diagnose imbalances. Around ovulation your temp should jump fairly quickly and should ideally stay elevated for 14 days. There are lots of guides online about what to record.

She treated you on 4 gates - this is a real de-stressor (liv 3 combines with Li4) - it's like releasing the steam out of a pressure cooker! Did you feel more relaxed after?


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## Blythe

Nice summary of kidney issues:

https://www.hans.org/magazine/990/The-Kidneys-A-Traditional-Chinese

I will be mostly sitting here today with my foot massager saying "wooooooooo"


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## kits

Thanks Jazz, really appreciate the reassurance :D

I'm taking my own temperature, don't think yesterday's was accurate as I did initially get up to find the v thermometer, but today I took just 15 minutes ago & I still haven't got up.

Thanks for the article Blythe, think I really need to have a read of it as I haven't really taken much consideration into my kidneys.

Enjoy your foot massager. I've been thinking of getting the rolling type to put under my desk at work.

:hug:


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## Breaking Dawn

Bliss...thx hun :hugs:

Briss...i think you are right about progesterone fluctuating. I've been on the same dosage since before ET...so you would think it's at a constant #. also...i was sick so it probably threw my numbers off. 

Melly...I'm excited for you. Only a few more days to go :). How are you feeling? 

Kits...thx hun!!

Jazz...thx so much for the support. It's true hormones differ....and you're right I've got no bleeding...or painful cramps...thankfully. I just saw you are having a baby girl...how did I miss that. congrats hun that's so special 

Well one more beta tmrw....and then I think I can stop as long as it's good number.


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## melly2

All great information on the diet and herbs; love reading it!

Breaking: I hope you're feeling better. Monday is just around the corner and it's sorta hard for me to believe. I'm feeling good, but not a fan of the progesterone oil shot, it leaves an aching pain in my glut muscle. Let's hope I have the same luck as you ladies!! ;-) Good luck on the beta!!!


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## Breaking Dawn

Melly...i did not do the PIO shot. just suppositories 3 times a day. And I'm still on them...expect to stay on them until 12 week Fx!!

It was hard for me to believe too...it wasn't until that morning of transfer did I feel like ok this is actually happening!!!


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## Briss

I am starting herbs finally today from CD1. I am to take 1.5 teaspoon twice a day (interestingly previously I was taking 3 teaspoons twice a day). I think it's quite different list from what I was taking before. The herbs have been packed and sealed so all looks good. they taste fine actually unlike QING YING SAN and XIAO YAO SAN formulas which were completely impossibly to take in. I am obviously now researching the ingredients :) I also listed my previous herbs just for comparison. tbn, it does not make sense to me and really hard to say whether this is going to work. I am just trying to have faith.

*2014 April List of herbs: Zhi Bai Di Huang Wan*

Shu Di Huang
Shan Zhu Yu
Shan Yao
Fu Ling
Ze Xie
Mu Dan Pi
Zhi Mu
Huang Bo


*2013 April  July list of herbs:
*

Dr Zhai List of (raw) herbs N.1:

chaihu
danggui
gancao
mudanpi
shanzhizi
xiakucao

Dr Zhai List of (raw) herbs N.2:

chaihu 
danggui
gancao
mudanpi
shanzhizi
xiakucao

baishaoyao
baizhu
bohe
fuling
tu fu ling

Dr Zhai's (powder) herbs:

Morning: QING YING SAN 
Evening: XIAO YAO SAN 

*2013 October  March list of herbs:
*
1.	radix bupleuri (Bupleurum Root (chai hu)
2.	radix paeoniae alba (White Peony Root) (bai shao)
3.	poria (fu ling) 
4.	white Atractylodes tuber 
5.	herba Epimedii (Horny Goat Weed)
6.	rhizoma curculiginis (Xianmao)
7.	radix rehmanniae glutinosae (SHENG DI HUANG)
8.	radix angelicae sinensis. (dong quai)
9.	semen cuscutae
10.	fructus mori (Mulberry, Morus fruit, Sang Shen)
11.	spina gleditsiae (ZAO JIAO CI) (Honeylocust Bark)
12.	fructus gardeniae (zhi zi)
13.	rhizoma cyperi
14.	radix glycyrrhizae (Liquorice root) (gan cao)


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## BBbliss

Melly, so so close! 

It's like being in line at at a park for o great adventure ride, and ET is a scary and exciting turn. I'm so glad I "let" you guys go first, LOL I never like to go first :)

First ging, then breaking then you and me next with blythe and briss right behind 
So far so good, one by one ...


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## Briss

Maybe it's counterproductive to even try to understand how these formulas work because for example here https://www.yinyanghouse.com/store/...nightsweats-tinnitus-hypertension-herbal-form they say that Zhi Bai Di Huang Wan should not be used if you are strongly drawn to warm drinks! obviously it's a concern cos I am always cold and I cannot drink anything cold (I am wrapping myself in woolen blanket when I drink milk as it's usually cold and my body temp goes down before I even finish the glass). 95% of what I drink is very hot (I hate anything warm it has to be hot for me to enjoy it, particularly coffee&#8230;)

I got my blood tests and getting seriously worried about hypothyroid state. My TSH is 3.79 out of 4.20 but I know that ideally it should not be more than 2 and mine was around 2 last year. My mum has underactive thyroid so I have the genetic predisposition. apparently, excess supplementation of iodine like with health-food supplements can lead to an accelerated hypothyroid state. I know I did not take iodine but may be it was added to some of my supps? I know some salt is iodized but I do not even eat any salt. may have to speak to a doctor cos it may be a very serious issue.

On a plus side my vitamin D came at 93. deficiency is below 25 and insufficient is below 50 but anything above 200 recommended to reduce the dose of vitamin D. I guess I am OK and probably do not need to take as much as I do. 

My insulin resistance tests also came back as normal so I guess years of chocolate addiction did not really affect my body in that way.


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## Jazzbird

Briss - I am excited about your treatment. I know it must be difficult to trust after the disappointments you've had with Chinese Medicine, but I think this practitioner is on the right track for the following reasons:

1. He is giving you powdered herbs - no other herbalist I know prescribes raw herbs because they are prohibitively expensive and I don't think they are necessarily more effective.

2. I read his article - and he really sounds like he knows what he is doing

3. I'm looking up your prescription - and I *think* (bearing in mind I'm not trained in herbs), that he has given you a personalised modification of the golden standard for building yin and making great eggs: Liu Wei Di Huang Tang. Its always prescribed for women with kidney yin deficiency.


Shu Di Huang - enriches Yin of Kidney and Liver
Shan Yao - enriches Yin of Spleen
Shan Zhu Yu - enriches Yin of Kidney and Liver
Fu Ling & Ze Xie - these two are added as Yin tonics are moistening and can if taken too much cause dampness. These two tonics drain dampness that can result from taking the first 3 herbs
Mu Dan Pi - this clears Kidney and Liver Fire. This is because you don't have enough yin, so you suffer with "Empty Heat" and over time this can turn to fire - a more extreme version of empty heat. Your acne breakouts are probably related to this and night sweats (feeling damp in the back at night). Empty heat can sometimes manifest on the soles of the hands and feet too (its called 5 palm heat).

Looks like he has added two extra herbs for you:
Zhi Mu - clears heat and drains fire
Huang Bo - clears heat

I'd say given that you have been diagnosed consistently with Kidney Yin Deficiency and probably empty heat/fire - I think this looks to be the right prescription.


I'm really not sure about the other prescriptions - because the ingredients are all listed separately and I can't look up the formula. I can look up each ingredient, but then its not really telling me what they are trying to do together. I looked up a few, and it seems as though she was treating you on something different altogether. It seems more of a sporadic list of ingredients but I could be wrong, like I said I haven't got formal training in herbs.

Dr Zhai List of (raw) herbs N.1:

chai hu - this seems to be treatment for Shao Yang pattern. This is usually prescribed for patterns of illness that cause alternating chills and fever. But I think Shao Yang is more for tropical illnesses - like malaria that can get stuck in the body and reoccur in a cyclical pattern.
dang gui - moves the blood
gan cao - tonifies spleen
mudanpi - cools the blood
shan zhi zi - resolves heat
xia ku cao - clears heat/liver fire


To me, it seems like the current herbal prescription matches more of my textbooks and that gives me great confidence in your practitioner. 

Are you to take this formula for the whole cycle or just the first half? I'm sure this guy knows what he is doing no matter what your answer is.

Have faith Briss, you have nothing to lose (except $$ which isn't great either, but he definitely isn't making a profit on his herbal prescriptions).

I'm so hoping this will work for you.


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## Jazzbird

p.s. I just saw your recent post. Trust in the prescription - I know why its saying don't take if you are cold etc. But you have a mixed condition - the heat is not excess heat, its empty heat resulting from not having enough yin. The empty heat is causing you to ovulate earlier etc. So you need the heat clearing herbs. Once the heat is cleared and yin is restored, you can probably stop taking the heat herbs. But your practitioner will no doubt tell you when this is the case.

Its almost like you have to treat what is worse first. And because yin and yang are interdependent, you might find that you start to weirdly feel warmer after you take the heat clearing herbs for a while. Having said that, I am always cold and I think its just constitutional.


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## Jazzbird

p.s. I was diagnosed primarily with yin deficiency - in fact I had the most scary looking tongue ever. But I am never hot, I'm always cold. I can't bear cold drinks with ice even in summer. But I took kidney yin herbs too & had the formula that clears empty heat.

HAVE FAITH!!!


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## Jazzbird

Sorry for the multiple posts girls, but I keep thinking of other things to say.

One thing I noticed about Dr Zhai's herbs it that I can't see much for Yin Deficiency? Perhaps I missed one of the ingredients, but to me high FSH, low AMH &#8230; these are very clear signs of yin deficiency, along with premature ovulation etc. So if she wasn't treating yin deficiency, I can't see how she could impact fsh/amh or treat infertility.

I really shouldn't pour scorn on another practitioner, but to me this seems fairly obvious. 

I also notice that a lot of her herbs are directed towards clearing excess heat. Perhaps she had a different diagnosis and thought you were suffering more from excess heat &#8230;


all this chat about chocolate has made me tear into an egg I bought today!! Green and Blacks Milk &#8230; YUM, whilst watching hollyoaks. 2 guilty pleasures. 

Happy Easter Ladies!


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## alison29

I love hearing the expertise Jazzbird do tell..

Briss are you still going to take pregnitude and lower sugar?

For me it' s the only thing along with caffeine reduction I have left to do , and minimize excercise which is a scary though considering all the nut calories i am eating.


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## Blythe

Jazzbird - i am always so interested to read your posts - thank you for taking the time to do the research and help guide us through this stuff! It is fascinating and i almost went into my acu place yesterday and ask that they put me back on herbs. I didn't though as when i was on them before they never changed the formula - i would only do them again if someone was prepared to administer them based on where i am in my cycle.

Briss - i am very tempted to go to your man - i could swallow the initial fee and a month of acu if the herbs are that reasonable. could you let me know again how much he charges or stick a link to his site - many thanks.

re the TSH - i have not had mine done for a while. I was looking earlier at reasons for fluctuations in this result and there are many reasons. I hope your doc can provide you with some reassurance - please report back.

Melly2 - very exciting times - hope you are getting lots of rest and that Monday goes smoothly :flower:

Breaking - i hope the 3rd beta was a great number and you can now relax :flower:

AFM - i brought some dandelion coffee and its surprisingly alright! its hot and black and that is where the coffee bit comes from i think but its not offensive to drink and if i pinched my nose whilst drinking i could almost pretend it was the real thing. Im actually quite impressed with it and its certainly more punchy than another bloody herbal tea.


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## Briss

*Jazzbird*, cant thank you enough!!! somehow even you saying that I am taking the right herbs makes me feel so much better :) I always found herbs hard to understand because when they are in the mix other herbs may change their properties so it's all very confusing to me. Dr Zhai was talking a lot about clearing heat first, she said until we clear the heat we could not see my true diagnosis. maybe her treatment was more long term but I do need to try and get my fsh down so we could proceed with IVF. I will be going through your responses more thoroughly today I want to try and understand these herbs a bit more. Dr E said that I should take this formula until O. I wonder if he is going to change the mix after O.

*alison*, I am actually still surprised that my sugar/insulin resistance bloods (HbA1c, Glycated Hb) came back fine. Maybe I did not do the right test? How can smb whose diet consistent mainly (70-90%) of chocolate for many many years not have some form of insulin resistance? I really do not get it (I am not complaining!) I just was so sure. I am taking 2 gr inositol and I will continue until I finish the bottle but then I will stop because it is supposed to help with egg quality but as far as I understand it only works when you have some form of insulin resistance. But I still believe sugar is evil :) so I will continue cutting it out of my diet. having said that, last night I had some ice cream :( (the only bad sugar in a week!) I did not have time to eat before the theatre and did not have any nuts or anything with me so the cravings were just too much to bear. I need to develop a habit of carrying nuts with me wherever I go, they so help with cravings. but I do not like see myself putting on weight, it's a little depressing and also I tend have most of my weight on my tummy so look quite pregnant which is upsetting considering that I am not. 

Blythe, I was thinking the same thing! I totally think you should try Dr E (he is not prohibitively expensive like Dr Zhai and his herbs are very reasonably priced) but he did tell me that if my high fsh is a result of naturally declining Yin there is nothing that he can do to get it down. He can be very direct. 

Dr E changes 70 for initial consultation and acu, 55 for any further app + acu; I paid 20 pounds for a bottle of herbs that should last me 12 days. he said that he will start me with weekly acu for a month and then every fortnight. I did not tell my DH that I am doing acu again because I just know he does not approve. 

I spoke to my mum about TSH and she said that her levels were 40 times above the norm when she was put of synthetic hormones and it was largely due to her taking iodine because she was misdiagnosed and that just shut her thyroid. so upsetting how docs can just ruin your health cos they do not know what they are doing :( she said that as long as my results within the norm I should just continue monitoring because thyroid is very responsive to my emotions and it could just be temporarily as a reaction to my emotional state. 

I have never heard of dandelion coffee, what does it do? I am still waiting for my Mediterranean Herbal Coffee, I so hope it is going to be good.


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## kits

I just want to say sorry ladies, as I'm not participating as much. I'm pretty lost with all the different types of levels that get discussed. I'm so new to this!

Please don't think I care any less, I wish nothing but the very absolute best for all of you :thumbup: And I very much appreciate all the advice ;D


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## alison29

Briss is it possible that the myo is doing it's job helping with insulin resistance and that is why your bloods were fine? I don't know maybe it's working? 

Blythe:That is great about the dandelion tea being good for coffee stand in ..I will have to try that. I need to order more teecino or soemthing else. soon

I understand the cravings problem. Just heard of another pregnant aquaintance last night. That is 3 in less then 3 months. It seems like everyone else has no problems getting knocked up. BUT i am going to dig for that depressed feeling i felt last night whenever i want to put something in the my mouth that is not good for fertility like coffee, wine, sugar etc..


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## Briss

alison, that test was supposed to show the picture for the last 3 months and I was only taking myo for about a week before the test so I do not think it had any effect yet. I am hoping that my body just learnt how to cope with sugar but I am afraid my ovaries had to step in at some point to deal with insulin which may explain why they seem to be aging before their time. but it might be due to thyroid. apparently under active thyroid is linked to premature ovarian failure. 

coffee is still a problem though but I still cannot believe I have not had any chocolate in almost 2 weeks!


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## Jazzbird

Briss, Dr Zhai clearing heat makes a lot of sense too. Some practitioners say that until you clear excess you cannot see underlying deficiency. Excess shows up on pulses and sometimes can mask deficiency. However, regardless of your pulses, your symptoms (High FSH, low AMH, premature ovulation etc.) point to Yin Deficiency. So I still think this new practitioner is on the right track. I also like that he has given you a 3 month timeframe - this leaves the discussion open for what you want to do if (and I hope this is a very remote possibility) it doesn't work for you.

It is difficult because you have a mix of excess heat (from long term Liver Qi Stagnation) and empty heat (from not enough yin). I can see different practitioners choosing different treatment strategies - but your current herb mix deals with all 3 (excess heat, empty heat, yin deficiency).

I wouldn't worry about understanding the herbs - the prescription he has given you is in my textbook and is consistent with your diagnosis. 

Interestingly, the Kidneys from an emotional point of view represent fear in Chinese Medicine. When your Kidney energy is weak, it is hard to trust and you can become overly fearful. Try to trust this practitioner - don't waste your energy trying to reassure yourself with what he is doing. Don't get me wrong, its good to understand what it all means, but it is important to have faith.

If you aren't getting results in 3 months, you can raise it with him.

I'm hopeful for you though Briss. 


Kits - I am sorry for dominating the thread with all this heavy Chinese Medicinal theory. I'm a non practicing acupuncturist (mainly because I can't pay my bills with it!) but I am very passionate about Chinese Medicine - as I really believe it offers hope when there is a dead end with Conventional Medicine. I have seen it work many times when patients are told by doctors there is "no hope" to help them.

The ladies on here talk about all sorts of stuff - lighter stuff too. We even had a discussion on porn once


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## Breaking Dawn

Hi ladies....got busy wknd plans but I just wanted to pop in and say hi to all of you and wish a happy easter wknd!!

Quick update...3rd betas are +1600 and P is 39. which means I passed the doubling...yay 

I now have to book a 7 week ultrasound :)


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## BBbliss

I just wanted to say a quick "yay!!!" To you breaking, what a good feeling :)

I have a busy wknd too. 

Happy Easter beautiful ladies :)


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## alison29

Thanks for clearing that up..I did not know about the three month test.. 

Great news breaking!

Truly great will power on the chocolate briss..I will let u know when I make progress


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## alison29

Thanks for clearing that up..I did not know about the three month test.. 

Great news breaking!

Truly great will power on the chocolate briss..I will let u know when I make progress


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## Blythe

I'm in Kensington palace gardens and just walked past Charlotte from SATC. She was with her daughter. I'm completely star struck and have been watching back to back episodes recently. She is tiny but rather reassuringly looks her age.


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## kits

Jazzbird said:


> Kits - I am sorry for dominating the thread with all this heavy Chinese Medicinal theory. I'm a non practicing acupuncturist (mainly because I can't pay my bills with it!) but I am very passionate about Chinese Medicine - as I really believe it offers hope when there is a dead end with Conventional Medicine. I have seen it work many times when patients are told by doctors there is "no hope" to help them.
> 
> The ladies on here talk about all sorts of stuff - lighter stuff too. We even had a discussion on porn once

Are you kidding? I love all your advice & insightfulness. :flower: :kiss: I think you help reassure us so much! All I meant is that I'm still lingering around just sometimes get a bit lost with different levels of this that & the other so I don't comment as much. I didn't want to seem insensitive.

I hope everyone is having a great Easter weekend!

:hug:


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## kits

Hey I didn't realise that Charlotte lived in the UK. I looove SATC. I think every man should watch it if they want to understand our species a bit better, heh.

Blythe, you must run into a lot of celebrities if that's where you live! Very nice & posh :D


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## Briss

Blythe, I also did not realise that Charlotte lived in the UK, she seemed the youngest of the lot. 

Breaking, fantastic news on the beta!! so reassuring

Jazzbird, thanks for checking my prescription!! I am so glad you can always refer to your textbook and explain what's what. makes a lot of sense. and you are quite right I should not really waste my energy. I will try to trust the process and hope that my FSH is getting down as we speak. herbs taste OK so I find it really easy to include them into my daily regime. 

afm, DH signed me up for netflix - big mistake!

happy Easter!


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## gingmg

Great news breaking!

Melly- good luck on Monday, will be thinking of you.

Happy Easter everyone!


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## Delphine11

Hello, ladies.

I hope you don't mind me asking a probably very basic question: how do you find a good acupuncturist/herbalist?

I'm in the UK and in the back of beyond so I don't have much choice and I haven't seen anyone local advertising. Is there a website where you can search for practitioners in your area who help with fertility? There is an accupuncturist nearby but her ad just says Traditional Chinese Accupuncture and makes no mention of fertility or even any herbs. 

Jazzbird and others, I find reading all your knowledgeable posts very inspiring. I'm not doing IVF or anything, just trying naturally, so I'd like to try any little thing I can do to help.

Re the herbal coffee - I used to drink one called BarleyCup. It's made from barley, rye and chicory. It tastes kind of malty. At the moment, I've been drinking a decaff coffee, which tastes very good, but I'm wondering if something more natural would be better. I do have weak tea too (Darjeeling, made very weak).

Happy Easter to all the wonderful ladies here who keep me sane and remind me I'm not alone.


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## Jazzbird

Hi Delphine

I would start with British acupuncture council website and look for local practitioners. Check out their websites and read their bios - some have a special interest in infertility and pregnancy. Some do specialist training in it but to be honest it doesn't matter so much as long as they have trained somewhere reputable. 

I personally know some very good ones in hampshire and can recommend some in London. There are also colleges with student clinics offering reduced fees if you are happy to be seen by a student practitioner.

If you want any help - let me know the area!

https://www.acupuncture.org.uk/baccsearch.html


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## melly2

Breaking: Great news!!! Yay!!!

Thanks, Ging! Monday it is!

Happy Easter everyone! I think the Easter bunny is coming tonight to unload a bunch of chocolate. ;-)


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## Delphine11

Thank you for replying, Jazzbird. I've got that site open to look at after dinner :)

Thank you too for explaining that what matters is the training really. I may give my local one a ring if I can't find anyone nearby on the site you linked me to. I work long hours so I'm a bit stuck with travelling too far (evil work fusses if I have time off and also I'm saving my leave up in case I need (and can afford!) IVF ).


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## Breaking Dawn

Thanks everyone! Feels odd that I don't have any appts until 7 wks....2 more wks. 

Melly goodluck tomorrow. FX!!!


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## kits

Happy Easter ladies! :bunny::bunny:

Delphine - To be honest I typed in acupuncture into google to see all the ones near me as I too have a very tight schedule so couldn't really afford to go too far away. I called the nearby ones (making sure they're on the British acupunture board) but only spoke to one lady.

She took her time talked me through so many different things, really wanted to know about me and my situation and it just kind of clicked.

When I went in to my first session I felt very comfortable and she was very thorough so never in a rush to get me going. When she put the needles on me she made very sure I was at ease and that I comfortable with the temperature. We had spoken about how I love keeping my feet warm and cozy so even though she couldn't put a blanket on my feet she put some of the paper roll that covered the bed on my feet to keep them warm.

When I asked about her background she happily went through it. Apparently when she studied she had to do 4 years (if I remember correctly) but she said the course now has been shortened so she appreciated having had the longer course.

Very happy with her, she also gave me a copy of the notes of what she did on me, where of course I posted on here & Jazz reassured me it was a good concuction for my CD. I see her again Tuesday morning before work.

Where in the UK are you?

Good luck tomorrow Melly, it'll all be worth it in the end :thumbup:


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## gingmg

Melly- thinking of you today! Let us know how everything goes.


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## BBbliss

Praying everything goes well melly :)


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## Briss

after 7 natural IVFs... this gives me hope https://babyandbump.momtastic.com/a...-total-3-perfect-embryos-44.html#post32404303

Melly, I am hoping everything goes well today!

afm, totally broke my diet and binged on a rather large piece of apple cake with ice-cream... only managed to stay off sugar for 2 weeks... pathetic. I blame the blood test results cos once I realised that years of chocolate abuse did not seem to produce any insulin resistance my motivation somehow faded


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## Jazzbird

Melly - thinking of you today.

Briss - you have been through so much heartache, I think you deserve treats. You are not pathetic - I don't like to hear you being so unkind to yourself. You are lovely and deserve to be happy. Let yourself have the occasional treat. 


Happy Easter ladies. I've eaten far too much chocolate! Xxx


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## melly2

Briss: We all need to give in sometimes. Trust me, I've been eating chocolates all weekend, and it felt good. ;-)

AFM: Transfer is complete! I have one little booger bear in me now. Now for the agonizing part...the wait! It seems oddly prophetic that my transfer is on today, Boston Marathon. It was on this day two years ago after I ran the marathon for the last time, and my husband said he wanted us to start trying to have a family, and so we decided that I would hang up my shoes for a little while and try. Needless to say, never in a million years would I have thought that I would be conceiving on that very same day via IVF two years later, but I guess life has a way of presenting us obstacles and challenges. 

I have the best husband and I'm thankful to have him. He gave me my easter basket yesterday, full of chocolate, of course, but also with gift certificates for massages and facials. So sweet!

Speaking of thanks...thank you all for warm wishes and support. I learn so much from all of you, and appreciate the words of encouragement. It means a lot.


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## Blythe

Melly - so glad to hear it all went well - i hope the wait is not too agonising and you can come and share your good news here.

Briss - i have been following her journey and it is wonderful to see that she has her much deserved BFP.


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## alison29

I am excited for you Melly

Briss thanks for the link and about being honest about your binge. This doesn't mean all is lost i think the more we stay on track the better and easier it becomes. Even if you are not insulin resistant remember sugar is bad because it is inflammatory and it's calories have no nutrition. I think i have been on track since wednesday..but this weekend my binge was on a monster energy drink which has no carbs but tons of caffeine. My kids plowed thru most of their easter candy yesterday they have got that sugar addict gene from me.


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## BBbliss

Melly, I'm so happy all went well for you. Now just take it easy and start dreaming :) the odds are in your favor with this one. Remember you had your embryo genetically tested and you KNOW it's a healthy one :) 

You wrote such a nice post, it makes me smile to see the love you and your husband share. It's very sweet. 

Isn't it just incredible how all events are connected and how it sometimes it all looks like its just a coincidence, well I don't believe in coincidences I truly believe its all perfectly orchestrated... It's when you see things like these that you have to stop and start believing. I went back and looked at my calendar and my very first cycle TTC was May last year and my very first Temperature was taken on MAY 15th, and my transfer is schedule for that exact day, my one year mark :) and like you never in a million years I could have predicted were I am today and all that's happened this year. 

Well, runner girl, I have a good feeling about you ;) congratulations!


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## Briss

*Jazzbird*, thanks! It's just easier for me not to eat any sugar cos if I break that even once I find it really hard to carry on which is happening right now, had ice-cream for lunch! It's still much better than it was before I am not relying on chocolate for energy but it's so much harder to resist this stuff. 

*melly*, congratulations on being PUPO! hoping and praying for your BFP. How did the ET go? Did they explain the quality of the embryo and why they transferred one? Do you still have other embryos frozen?

*Blythe*, I am seriously considering going to Germany for natural IVf if the stim cycle wont work out &#8230; It's seems much cheaper and sort of more natural even than Create, also they do not seem to ask for tonnes of bloods etc before they take you on which reduces the fees a lot. basically it all comes down to trigger/ EC / progesterone so you can easily do it every other cycle. Travelling is annoying of course but it's not that far.

*alison*, I also over did it with coffee this weekend, just could not stop myself &#8211; love this stuff but the good news is that my herbal coffee arrived today so I will be trying to switch to that.


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## alison29

Oh good try half reg and half teecino to start out with. I have to be good the rest of this week and next weekend falls on cd 13 and 14 so want to keep the caffeine at 50 mg or less (less yeah right). Also don't plan on doing any treadmill this weekend so i hope i can balance that out with not eating as much. Maybe i should try swimming laps like you briss. I need to get a cap and googles first.


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## Blythe

Briss - i think i looked at IVF in Germany before - cannot remember if i made any enquiries or not. Please report back on what you can find though.


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## Breaking Dawn

Melly...hope that little embie getting all snug in there. what a sweet story! 

How is everyone doing? 

I'm back to work today after the long wknd...blech!! lol


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## Jazzbird

Awww Blythe, I'm just so sorry you feel so low. It's not surprising - 4 years of TTC is tough. It's just such a lottery - it seems so random. You aren't being negative at all. It is completely natural to feel this way. 

Are you still going for ivf this May? I wonder if taking a break from all things fertility related is what you need. 

Thinking of you Blythe - you are always so positive and so helpful to everyone else. 

Xxx


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## melly2

Briss: We only transferred a single embryo by choice. Since we had CCS (Comprehensive Chromosomal testing) done on it, chances are it's a very healthy embryo, but now it's all about my body accepting it. We have five others in the freezer...just in case.


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## Blythe

Jazzbird - thank you :hugs: sometimes just saying something out loud and having it acknowledged helps so much :flower:


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## alison29

I am on that ledge too alot Blythe. Before I read your post i was thinking i have been posting on this board for 3 years. Also, I have had 3 people fall in the past month or two that are close to me. Five years of unprotected sex without a pregnancy is ALOT. It makes me feel kind of like a fool you know? Like you the universe is screaming at me " This is not meant to happen dummy!" Don't feel bad expressing your honesty around me. I am sure we can start a positivity only thread if anyone is offended lol. Having said all that you are doing things you have never done to improve your health and having major medical intervention , FOR SURE you have a good chance.


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## Briss

*alison*, definitely get good quality googles for swimming. mine are so old, every time I take them off after swimming I look like a panda! and it lasts for hours so I cant really go swimming during my lunch break and morning, only after work so I have the night to recover my normal look. Also, I do not swim during AF. I could not bring myself to check my weight this morning, I think I more or less know how much I've put on but just cant bear to see the number. also, beginning to really hate my tummy it's huge, proper pregnancy tummy, all cos I do not have any muscles and when I eat a lot this happens. I looked much better when I was on chocolate so I really hope it pays! 

*melly*, it's great that you still have 5 embryos. I am sure everything will be fine with your body accepting your embryo but it's just nice to know you have other options, takes some pressure off. 


*Blythe*, I will be relying on Dovkav, she tried different clinics so an expert on IVF in Germany. Spoke to DH and he provisionally agreed that Germany is an option but not before August/Sep. He wants to see how his treatment is going and also try to do full on stim here if we ever get there. he is actually convinced that my pre AF spotting was due to pregnancy and he is so clueless he thinks I might still be pregnant??? after full on AF? it's just spotting is really unusual for me and the only time it happened before when we had IVf chemical. (it's also possible that my huge tummy is giving him wrong ideas&#8230; ) I guess he needs some confirmation that his treatment is working

I can totally understand your frustration with TTC. I feel like we are missing something. why is it not happening? what is it going to take? I do feel we are wasting time and should have had at least 1 more IVF in the meantime, waiting for the NHS funded cycle is just terrible waste of time. we have learnt and tried so much in the last 4 years but there is no result. I am trying to keep some optimism going because there is no other way but obviously deep down I am so scared.

I think all our supps, acu etc is not the answer but it helps a little bit with aging so worth continuing. I am determined to cut down on sugar but will include occasional treats. Shame I have to eat so much and put on weight but high calorie stuff like nuts or grains is the only thing that can shut up my sugar cravings. 

Forced myself to have wheatgrass juice today - totally revolting! How did I ever manage to drink it daily is beyond me &#8211; all in pursuit of that ever so elusive BFP. I am so through with wheatgrass juice!


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## Blythe

Alison - thats harsh having so many close friends fall pregnant within such a short space of time. I know that like me you will be thrilled for them but for me it is always hearing the news for the first time that hits me really hard. After that i process it and i am genuinely happy for them.

its so so hard - i wish i could throw in the towel and count my many blessings but i simply cannot. so every now and then i have a mini breakdown and then pick myself up and start thinking it is possible again.

Briss - what i like about the IVF in germany is that Dovkav seems to have really attacked this without a break and that is one of the great things about natural cycle IVFs. It should bloody well be affordable in this country too and allow women to keep going until they get there. I know it is hard whichever way we go about this but i have found the waiting between appts, treatments etc etc really hard. 

Your DH's treatment is certainly working - i mean he has been DTD day after day. That would never happen in my house - those days have long gone and i wonder how we will ever get pregnant naturally when we can only manage 2/3 times per month. i felt really turned on when i had my cyst though! i suppose this might indicate i have some issues with oestrogen in the first half of my cycle - maybe this is something which chinese herbs could help with.

how are your herbs?


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## Briss

Blythe, herbs are great. I mean I cant tell cos it's too early but they are easy to take and taste OK. also my temp was shockingly low this morning, could it be the herbs fighting excess heat? probably too early to have such an effect.

I can definitely tell that DH's testosterone levels are up cos we never ever in our relationship had as much sex as we do now but the treatment is for 3 months and can only be extended to max of 6 month (we are on our 4th month) so I am slightly dreading the time when he will be off this treatment. it's such a difference when you do not need to plan BD and prepare him in advance and really "work" at it to make anything happen. so trying to enjoy it while it lasts. we are yet to find out if it had any effect on his count though. 

natural IVF is really easy and can be done every cycle. obviously trying to arrange the flights and accommodation + appointments for the right days is going to be a nightmare. still, it's an option. need to start looking into that properly. 

re estrogen, do you remember what were your CD3 levels? they usually do both FSH and estrogen on the same day so you must have had a few tests done. I find estrogen very confusing cos it also seems to be related to my acne but I cant figure it out yet. but you must be right that it relates to sex drive cos my sex drive ends at ovulation when estrogen goes down. my CD3 estrogen levels are a bit high but still within norm (when I do not have cysts). I wonder if yin deficiency should correlate with low estrogen levels?


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## Briss

I looked back to check what was different in dovkav's last IVF and I think the key was probably assisted hatching!

"an embryo shell was 15-20, assisted hatching with a laser was performed. They made a whole. In the literature I read if zona pellucida more than 15, AH is recommended.

I rested 30min after ET
I take 100mg aspirin a day
3g fish oil (helps with immunity response)
alfa alfa, sweet pea sprouts, 
300mg progesterone
VitD 3000
flaxseed oil
q-10
eating pineapple, avocado
stopped my green tea
BD before ET and will BD on 4dt and so on... "

I am so inspired to do more natural IVFs. waiting for this NHS cycle is just really hard. 2 more weeks until our initial appointment but who knows how much more until we actually start the cycle. 

managed to bring myself to check my weight this morning and obviously it was quite disappointing. I am putting on about 1-1.5 kg every week. Must do more exercise since I am eating like an elephant! fruit yogurts will have to go, basically they are just sugary things, no wonder I loved them so much. TMI: with all the food I am eating I now go to the toilet twice a day! It's like my body is just constantly digesting. I do not know what else to do. Got my Inositol powder, maybe I need to increase the dose to help with sugar cravings? also trying to eat more berries than fruit.


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## alison29

That sound great about Dh briss. The meds must be working to up his counts.

I don't want to weigh myself either but i am trying to remind myself that if eating nuts is helping get past the sugar it' s just temporary. Another thought of mine lately is that maybe i have a wheat connection with acne. My face was doing good then ate those low carb wheat wraps and had spot on my chest and face following.


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## alison29

Blythe we only bed around 4 times a month but if my o doesn't fall around weekend i will instigate more.


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## melly2

Briss: One thing I noticed on the list, says "Stop green tea". I'm still drinking green tea, but decaffeinated. Is green tea bad for the embryo?


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## melly2

AFM: 2dp5dt. My husband is sick, and now I'm afraid I may be coming down with something. I'm taking Emergen-C as I read that is okay for pregnancy. As far as any symptoms, I don't want to read too much into anything. I feel weird today, but I think it has more to do with an impending cold than anything else. I woke up feeling nauseated, but again, I don't want to read too much into it. Also, having incredibly vivid dreams. I don't feel cramps, twinges or anything like that... :-( I was hoping I would feel something definitive today. 

Been busy with work, so it helps to keep me distracted. I play in the company volleyball game today, and I think I won't be making any sudden dives for the ball today. Sorry, team! Also, we're going to a concert tonight (my favorite band, The National), so it's going to be a very, very late night, and I have to wake up early to get my blood drawn for the progesterone levels. Just let me survive the next 48 hours, so I can enjoy the weekend already!


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## Briss

*alison*, acne is so tricky cos I think it has different causes and there are a lot of other factors that come into play making it so confusing. mine seems more hormonal than food base cos I get spots only just before and first days of AF and around O. It must be related to estrogen levels. 

*melly*, I think dovkav removed green tea because of the caffeine but then anything decaffeinated in my opinion is worse than caffeine cos of the chemicals used in the process. Ultimately I do not think green tea played any role in her BFP but if you are worried it's best to drink some herbal tea like mint. Do not worry about not feeling anything, most people who get pregnant do not have any symptoms. I am impressed that you are so active, volleyball, marathons! I am inspired, definitely going back to the swimming pool tonight!


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## BBbliss

Blythe, I'm sorry you had some bad days, good thing is here's the place where you can be honest about it because we've all been there, but the important thing is, we fall down but we pick ourselves up and keep on keeping on ;)

Briss, I only wish I could put DF on same meds your DH is on, we are not very busy these days, hehe. I love to hear you get excited about making plans for the upcoming months. You've done so much for yourself and for us all here I hope you realize that :)

Alison, I know how it is... Since TTC seven of my cousins have gotten pregnant, I'm so happy for them, but it makes me feel left behind :( what really bothered me was an announcement that came over the wknd. A friend of mine had a baby and she's a few months older then me and will be 45 in a couple of months, she wasn't even TTC. I felt sad for myself, so I decided to face it and not run from it so i stared at her picture, still in the hospital just moments after giving birth, and only let it go when I finally felt truly happy for her and could feel her joy. It's not easy sometimes and it takes a little work but I don't want to come out of this experience with bitterness and resentment if it all doesn't work out for me. 

And BTW, how are all my pregnant buddies? Ging, jazz, breaking and melly? I hope all is perfectly well we need all your good pregnant vibes on this thread

I had my u/s and blood today, all is well and I start with the estrogen patches tomorrow. I asked him to do follicle count, it's silly but I keep thinking as long as I have eggs in my ovaries I'm still fertile :) he did a quick look and he said over 10 on right side and left was "quieter". So we are still on and should transfer in 3wks yay!!! I'm excited and scared at the same time :D

Oh almost forgot, when I was waiting today at the dr's office guess what they offered me? Coffee! I was so happy I very gladly accepted with a big smile :D


----------



## melly2

Bbliss: Wow, it's happening soon for you! That's great! I think the follicle count sounds quite good. You are still fertile, my friend. ;-) It is crazy how this is all happening at the same time (roughly) for all of us. I still can't really believe it's happening. 

Briss: I'm jealous of the drugs your dh is currently on. I would love for mine to get his drive back to what it was. Crazy to think I'd be the one begging for more sex. Hah!

Hope everyone else is doing well!


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## alison29

Thanks BBLISS somehow it helps to know others have the same experiences. That is a good way to cope finding happiness for others. Coffee sounds so good right now, i don't need the caffeine though already had 80 mg today.


----------



## Briss

*BBbliss*, the interesting thing about BD is that I've come across many ladies who BD religiously and very often around O and then had a one or two off cycles when they only managed to BD once randomly and that was when they got their BFP. it really is so random, no way I can understand how this works. I just hope that by BD more often we can improve DH's quality cos he is not keen on vitamins and it has been a struggle. he refuses to take them and sometimes a week can go by without any vitamins. 

btw, excellent follicle count! 

*Melly*, it's funny but my DH says it's nothing to do with the treatment but more to do with the fact that after our holiday I became happier and nicer to be around so he feels more "inspired". but we've been together since we were about 25-26 and he never had much sex drive it's just it was not such a big issue then. 

*afm*, 3rd appointment: CD 8

my acu appointment went well, Dr E asked about AF which did not really change much. on the positive side my CBFM is still on low which is encouraging. 

acu points: Yintang, left/right zigong, SP 6, ST 36, LV 3, no heat lamp. he also added two new points which I have not had needled before (am not sure I get the names right though): i) LU 8, on the right side, and ii) SP 5 or K6, cant figure out which one it was. basically on the inside of my left ankle, just below the ankle bone. He said that the idea is to calm things down in this part of my cycle and practically compared me to a boiling kettle. I really like it that he changes points depending on where I am in my cycle. 

I am to continue with my herbs until I run out or until O. he said that he needs to see me next time before he can decide whether I am to take any other herbs in TWW. Perfect.

Also, apparently it's OK to swim after acu. yesterday I practically forced myself into the swimming pool. Why is it so hard? I did not do my km but still I swam for about 700 meters and really enjoyed it. really do not get it why I find it so hard to get myself to do it. 

I ditched my fruit yogurt and replaced it with Ricotta and plain yogurt. I think it will take time to adjust. Not easy actually to find proper plain yogurt they seem to be loaded with sugar even the plain ones. am back to reading labels, sugar must be below 5%.


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## Briss

just read on another thread that a lady got pregnant using a condom! wtf!!


----------



## Blythe

Briss - many thanks for report on acu treatment. It is great that he is varying the treatment depending on where you are in your cycle - at last someone you can work with!

i have been feeling so bloody appalling recently that i visited a new acu place in my lunchtime near Haymarket. It is the most expensive place i have been too and when we were struggling to communicate i thought of leaving then and there but she was so toughy feely and i really liked her. She kept stroking my hand and saying she had got many women pregnant when working in the hospital in china. It is a good place and the chap there worked in one of the top TCM/western medicine hospitals in shanghai so i am hopeful that she has a decent pedigree too.

i went for the acu and it was the same spots with an extra one on chest - she kept twiddling them which i hate but it felt like a more powerful treatment. i paid 300 for 6 sessions and that is 30 min acu and 15 full body massage which was lovely. she ended up leaving the needles in for about an hour though today.

i said i did not want to pay 50 per week for the powdered herbs so ended up buying the pills - why oh why do i loose the ability to say NO when needed! they were 10 per pot and i said i could get them cheaper and she advised me not to get them off the internet which is fine but they are the same thing and they are sold by reputable firms too. 

she said i was not ready to conceive - i asked her if i should go ahead with the IVF next week [when following initial scan they will be sticking me straight onto stims] but she did not understand.

i don't know what to do - should i go next week and start the IVF or leave it one more month? i have been spotting for days so that has not helped. Im so sick of waiting but if this fails i have no second go at it.


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## Jazzbird

Briss - I like the sound of your acu - he is treating similarly to how we were taught to treat. It sounds like he opened ren Mai channel (lung 7 + kid 6) - also known as the conception vessel:

"The master point for the Ren meridian is Lung 7, which is coupled with Kidney 6, on the yin qiao mai channel. The Conception Vessel relates to responsibility for, or fostering of, the process of birth, whether it be that of a child, a creative idea, or an endeavor.

The Ren receives and transports the qi of all the yin meridians, and therefore regulates the uterus, menstruation, menopause, pregnancy, etc. Since the master point is on the Lung channel, it is associated with respiratory syndromes, e.g., childhood asthma.

The Conception vessel can be used to nourish the body&#8217;s yin energy, particularly in women after menopause, and to reduce the effects of empty-heat symptoms deriving from yin deficiency which is a common problem in the menopausal stage. It can also be used for problems relating to menarche, conception, fertility and pregnancy, especially for pregnancy, because the Conception vessel controls the foetus"

I think it's important to treat different points at different stages in menstrual cycle. We were encouraged to vary points too.

I'm so hoping you see some positive changes soon Briss! 

Hi to all the other lovely ladies!

Xxx


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## Blythe

just told my DH about the new chinese place and he has gone ballistic. i have mentioned before but his ex was a TCM practitioner so he does have some appreciation of its merits but he just went mad saying when they see me coming they just say anything to get my money.

now I'm torn because if i do go for IVF and start it next week then if i get pregnant then i won't be able to have acu because its not safe and I've lost 300 but if i don't then i have to wait another 4 weeks and I'm not sure what bloody difference it will make - oh dear i am going around in circles.


----------



## Breaking Dawn

Hi ladies!

Blythe. .i dont know enough about acu/tcm to suggest moving fwd or holding off longer. goodluck with the next steps. If she said you are not ready keep in kind she is saying it from a natural conception point if view (I'm guessing) and not saying that to ivf (I'm guessing).

Bliss...so excited for you!!! Btw...one ovary is quieter each month...so that's quite normal! 

Melly..how are you feeling? 

Ging..you ok?

AFM...I'm good.. glad that I have symptoms like sore boobs/nipples and nausea in the AM. Just staying patient and waiting for my first u/s in 2 wks.


----------



## Blythe

Breaking. I had not thought of it that way. Thanks :)

Glad to hear it is going well.....hope the nausea is not too bad and look gorward to hearing about your scan :flower:


----------



## Blythe

Briss - I'm wondering why your herbs are so reasonably priced but others charge the earth for powdered herbs. are yours in little sachets that you take twice a day? - did he mix them up himself?


----------



## Briss

*Blythe*, your new place sounds excellent. chinese docs are very different and they do use force sometimes with needles which I found rather painful. personally I prefer pain free acu but I have heard that when your really feel the needle it works better. completely defer to Jazzbird on this point. 

I like it that she does massage as well! my first doc always did cupping and back massage in the end I absolutely loved that part! 

it's so difficult to say no at times, isn't it? I was so sure I wont be taking any herbs ever and just look at me here I go again :)

re IVF, it's really hard to say. I did notice your spotting and it's not great but then you will be on meds so your cycle will be controlled anyway I guess some hormonal disbalance should not be an issue, the important thing to get the stims right. see how your scan goes and how many follicles you have got. it will be easier to see then whether you may want to wait for the next cycle. 

that's exactly the reason why I am not telling my DH about acu. He was very clear on this issue so i do not want to have any more arguments. With Dr E it is a little easy cos you pay as you go basically. it's harder when you have to pay up front for something but that's how most chinese clinics work and they offer competitive rates. anyway, you already paid 300 so you cant take it back. I say carry on with the treatment and if everything looks good and you can start IVF you can still continue with acu up until ET. if you get pregnant, nothing else will matter.

Jazzbird, thank you so much for explaining this! I would not be able to figure out the ren Mai channel (lung 7 + kid 6) on my own :) that makes a lot of sense!

afm, got more forms from UCH. am disappointed because apparently it's only EC/ET that's done at CRGH (and sometimes scans on weekends), the entire initial stage including stims is all NHS so they will decide on the protocol and something tells me they are going to put me on the same protocol as Blythe just because that's what they usually do for our age group. am suddenly feeling very hopeless.


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## Briss

Blythe, my herbs are not in sachets. they are mixed in a plastic bottle (the same bottle that you get from chinese clinics). I am using a tea spoon to measure how much to put twice a day. I do not know who mixed it but it was sealed when I got it. chinese shops usually just mix it in front of you. Dr E did not have the herbs in his office so I am not entirely sure how it's done. you are quite right about the price, it's much cheaper than any herbs I bought before. even after the discount in chinese place it cost about 35 per week. Dr Zhai's were about 10 a day!!


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## melly2

AFM: 3dpt. Got my blood drawn for progesterone, came back a bit low so I need to increase my progesterone dosage. They told me that it's nothing to worry about though as long as we increase my dosage. I've been having some cramping today; not sure...just some minor twinges. Not trying to read too much into it. Not sure when I'm going to test or if I should just wait until the beta.


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## Blythe

Melly2 keeping my fingers crossed for you x


Briss - I wonder if the long protocol would work well for you....what are your thoughts on it? I cannot remember why the second create cycle did not yield more eggs. How much gonal f did they have on and from which cd?

Thank you for your advice....I lost it again earlier but you are quite right that I just need to go for scan and take it from there. 

I enjoyed the ACU today although I hated the twiddling bit. I looked at my other appt cards and have had ACU weekly since the beginning of this year.....clearly ACU alone is doing nothing for me if my kidneys are still crap.


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## gingmg

Melly- progesterone is what supports a pregnancy and Ivf can interfere with our bodies ability to produce it, which is why we need the extra support to begin with. As long as they adjust your doses based on your levels, its fine. All sounds good. Fx for you!!!

Blythe- I have no words of advice regarding taking another month off or not. I am sure you will make the right decision. 

Briss- I have found Fage Greek yogurt has no sugar. Its good with fruit and honey.(does honey count as sugar?)

Breaking- all sounds good. Hang in there until your ultrasound, I know the wait is hard. 

Bbliss- how are you? You are getting closer to transfer no?

Jazzbird-Hi!!

Kits and Alison-hi!

Wonder if juniper will ever stop back in. Hope all is well with her.

AFM OK here. Doing a yogathon this weekend at Gillette stadium to raise money for the children's hospital. Its an all day event, probably won't be able to walk come Monday, but should be fun regardless. I did it last year so hoping it's just as fun this year. I'm not as active in yoga as I used to be so 4 hours is going to seem like a loonnngggg time.


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## kits

Hiya ging!

Is anyone struggling to get on here via their mobile? I kept trying to post hugs to Blythe but none seem to have gone through & I've only just been able to get on my laptop.

Sorry I've been away!

Blythe, really sorry this is happening to you, that feeling of desperation is horrible & that's why we find it easy to place our hope on something such as acupuncture because it gives us that extra possibility that doctors tend to shy away from. No idea whether you should wait another cycle or not - I'm going through a similar debate at the moment.

The only thing I know is that my acupuncturist was pretty definite with saying if I'm going to try to get pregnant this cycle then she has to give me a different type of treatment.

That twiddly bit is annoying. It is the one thing I don't like about the whole process, but lucky you to get a massage. I don't get that extra perk :winkwink:

Hang in there, I'm sure you'll do your best to decide.

Melly, I've read about success stories of women who've had lower progesterone levels so I'm guessing there really isn't much to worry about especially if that's what your doctor has said as well. When I was pregnant that was the one thing that the doctors & nurses refused to tell me 'it's nothing to worry about' so all still sounds pretty positive. :thumbup:

I've had my second acu treatment and I think I'm staying positive for the time being. It was a little difficult trying to decide whether I want to try this month or not, but her unofficial, personal suggestion was that I should wait until next cycle to make sure that we can prepare my body & hopefully give that sticky bean a very welcoming home. I didn't realise that the path of treatment would be different.

I was ready & had resigned myself to wait.. until today.

Today I went in for a scan to confirm whether I have a cyst or not as I have this ongoing pain close to my right ovary. I was convinced I had one but I have been a bit of a nervous wreck thinking I had hundreds and would never be able to have a baby. But then sonographers gave me my results & guess what! No cysts, not even one! My ovaries looked healthy, my uterus nice & healthy.. all good to go! In fact they said they had a look at my follicles & could see that an egg is ready to be released. They were very encouraging & excited for me to get on with my BDing!

I was gobsmacked & so happy! I felt like nourishing my egg, like a proper Finding Nemo moment.. I want to fertilise it & care for it so bad!

But I am so conflicted, do we try this cycle.. or do I wait and go through the acu properly so that I don't have another failed attempt? My big issue all along is that I worry I can't hold on to a sticky bean not that I'm unable to get pregnant. I thought maybe my uterus was a bit weak or inhospitable but after listening to what the sonographers said that doesn't seem to be an issue?

*sigh* no idea what to do... No idea what is causing that tight knot-like pain on my right side or if I'm going to need any treatment for it down the line.

OH keeps saying, let's go for it.. ok let's wait, ok let's go for it, let's wait. Ahh! Going to have to make a decision pretty quick according to today's advice.

Lots of :hug: ladies, always wishing you the best!


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## BBbliss

Kits, go for it ;)

Blythe, I think you should decide after your scan, if it all looks good I think you should go ahead and continue with acu, I've heard there are benefits to ACU on first tri. You wouldn't loose your investment, just a change in treatment. 

Ging, I'm on my first day on the estrogen patch and so far it still looks like 14/15 of may. I have horrible headaches with lupron and I can't wait to be done with them. I was just thinking about juniper too I hope she's happy wherever she is. 

Briss, you know, DF doesn't have much of an drive, but at the same time I'm not even remotely close to what I used to be, and we seam to be BDing less and less these days. I wish I was a little more excited myself :(

Breaking, do you really think the "quiet" ovary could come back to life in another cycle? I was worried. I've never had that, it's always pretty close every time. I hope I don't have to find out and this is the only IVF cycle I need to do but it got me thinking. 

Melly, I hope you can wait, I know I won't be able to wait and will be testing before. LOL such great advice 

Jazz, do you know if you are having a boy or a girl? Names? :)

How are you Alison?

Reading all the wonderful advice and different experiences with ACU makes me not want to go back to my lady. I don't think she was very knowledgeable but at least I felt calmer while going to see her. I remember it never made a difference what part of my cycle I was on. Also there was no talk about herbs, I tried once and she just ignored it. Well now I'm only 3 wks to transfer and I feel good about it, I feel I have done all my very best :)


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## Blythe

Kits. It's early and I'm about to get ready to go to work so spologies for short reply. Please go for it.....without a shadow of a doubt. Get BDing!! Ive been told by my ACU people in the past everything was looking good but nothing happened and now I'm being told I have very little chance. They sat 3 months prep/ACU treatments is good but some only need a little tweaking because they were good to go anyhow......sounds like you are one if them :) Quite frankly if that little egg wants to snuggle down and get growing IT WILL.:flower:


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## alison29

Thanks for asking BBLISS I was away yesterday today i am back..I am starting to get my lh surge well hoping for tomorrow then get some bding in this weekend.


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## Briss

*BBbliss*, I really hope that this is the only IVF cycle you need, you do not need to worry about your follicle count (which is still pretty impressive btw)

*Melly*, keeping my fingers crossed for you! what dose of progesterone are you on currently? 

*Kits*, I agree with the ladies, go for it! everything looks nice and healthy, it might be your lucky month!

*gingmg*, honey does count as sugar but it's healthy type of sugar so I eat a little bit of honey when I am desperate. Still cant believe that days can go by with me not eating any bad sugars. it really is life changing for me. thanks for the tip re yogurt. It's hard to get used to plain yogurt. I added berries and banana but tbh it does not make it any better I even think I can skip the yogurt and just eat berries but obviously the whole point of it is eating protein. so I guess I may add a little honey next time.

*Blythe*, your kidneys are great! I am sure acu did some good to your system, I admire that you are being so consistent with it, that's what going to make it work. herbs are really hard cos it's easy to get it wrong and I really find it hard to trust. It gives me comfort that Dr E's prescriptions match Jazzbird's book so at least I understand what he is trying to achieve and that the prescription is recognised. having said that the Chinese docs are more fluent in this field and they do not go by a textbook but more by their experience so it's a matter of luck getting the right doctor. I do not think you can get wrong with acu particularly cos the points are all the same more or less. Also, I find Chinese docs are very hash in expressing their views so better not to take it literally. 

from my reading I concluded that the long protocol would not work for me cos of high FSH and occasional ovarian cysts. also any kind of hormonal treatment disrupts my ovaries and creates a mess. I also think it may affect egg quality (which may not be great to begin with considering my second IVF) cos the meds go through your blood and liver and ultimately your ovaries, follicles and eggs. I really do not know I might be wrong. what I know is that I do not trust the NHS people to make the decision on the protocol. I think I need to calm down I can just feel my heat is "heating up" again when I think about it.

On my second IVF they started me on 225 gonal f from CD 2 and then increased it to 250 half way through. I think I had about 8-10 follicles but only 2-3 were growing.

*afm*, CD 9 and LOW again! wow, that does not happen very often I may even O on CD 14. but if I do not get a high tomorrow I will get seriously worried that my estrogen is being suppressed by the herbs. I started temping again but DH hates it so much that I wake him up with my beeping sounds but I really want to know what my temp is like if I get spotting again.


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## melly2

*Briss: *I eat Fage yogurt, like Ging suggested, but mix it with natural Strawberry preservers. It add natural fruit sugars and flavors. Win-win! BTW: I think temping would help so you can determine exactly when you're O'ing.

*Bbliss:* Wow...so close. Sorry about that Lurpon, it can be a doozy. 

*Kits:* Go for it! Like you, I always had ovary pains, but it was determined that the pain was my body preparing to ovulate and building a healthy egg. After I knew that, it was kinda reassuring feeling and I could better gage when I was ovulating.

*Ging, Jazz, and Breaking:* Hope you all are doing good. Breaking, hope the morning sickness is subsiding a bit. 

*Blythe:* I agree with Briss, I think you should decide after your scan, as well. Good luck on the decision, I know it can be so hard; this whole journey is hard and mentally taxing.

*alison:* Go Bd crazy this weekend! Good luck and have fun! ;-)

AFM: Bizzaro dreams last night. I dreamt I blood a lot into the toilet, but wasn't exactly sure if it was implantation or miscarrying; it was a weird dream. I woke up to find blood in our toilet, but it was my husband who had a bloody nose all night and throwing the tissues in the toilet. A bit of cramping today, but nothing drastic. I am now up to 2 mil of progesterone oil shots in the butt. These shots are a bit of a doozy and literally leave and pain in my ass for 24 hours, even after sitting on a heating pad for over 30 minutes.

It's getting hot here (I'm in Texas), so we're off to the lake this weekend. I don't think I'm going to wakeboard yet, but I think I will start in a few weeks, after implantation has occurred. I may ask my doctor if it's safe assuming I don't try any crazy stunts. 

Hope everyone has a great weekend!


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## Jazzbird

Buggar beggar buggar! I just posted the longest reply and it logged me out!

Blythe - I am so sorry you are getting all these negative comments about your kidney energy being too weak. I really find it rather annoying that acupuncturists can be so blunt and with something that is not black and white. I can't tell you how many times I've been told the very same thing and I was able to in the end. Add to that the doctor that warned me my progesterone was too low. People's pulses vary massively. Some people just have deep pulses (sign of weak kidney yang) but can still conceive. 

I would wait until your scan to make a decision. I feel you are so vulnerable right now and whilst chinese practitioners can be brilliant - not speaking good English is a nightmare when you need sensitivity, reassurance and they also need to fully understand all the ivf drugs etc. 

Herbs shouldn't cost the earth. I've always been told at college that powdered herbs are strong enough and they usually cost from £50-£80 per month. Tea pills vary again - usually £4-£10 per pot lasting a week if taken full dose. 

Practitioners vary massively and so do the herb sources unless you get one through the register of herbal medicine or British acupuncture council. There should be similar bodies in USA too. 

I'm just so sorry you are feeling so low. Hugs to you Blythe, you really deserve some positive news soon.

Briss - soooo excited about these changes. I am hoping the herbs and acu are cooling your system down and the yin energy is cooking your eggs nice and slowly for release around cd14. I know it's natural to worry but your practitioner will kick start ovulation mid cycle and will use all the temp info and cbfm info to treat you. When a woman with no periods goes for treatment, we are told to treat them as if they were having a period and then do the standard menstrual phase treatments after. Somehow this kick starts their hormonal system into action over a few months. What I'm trying to say is that your practitioner will be looking to encourage the ideal cycle, so don't worry!!! 

I think it is a good sign and I'm excited to hear your ov progress over the next few days. Sometimes patients react very quickly when the right treatment is prescribed. So hoping this is you!

Melly - admiring your calm approach. If you can hold off testing until you are due I think it's best. Keeping everything crossed for you!

Alison - happy bd! I haven't bd since we conceived. I was too sick first 20 weeks and now oh doesn't want to do it in front of the baby!! Hope you have a nice steamy weekend!

Kits- I wonder what your acu is treating you for? I'd get in a cheeky bd but you'll have to tell your acu because she will have to treat you as if you are pregnant and avoid certain points. 

BBbliss - we are having a girl! So happy to be picking out girls clothes. We do have a name which is very unusual in uk. I'm not allowed to tell but I'm sort of anonymous on here so ... Autumn will be her name. But she will be a summer baby so not sure if it's a good idea. Sorry to hear about lupron issues - the things we go through!!! How are things with your daughter now?

Breaking - hoping you are not too sick? I guess it is reassuring though if you are. 

Ging - not long til your 12 week scan? You must be excited!!! Yogathon sounds very strenuous. Have you checked out poses not allowed in pregnancy? Be careful - it's not good to over exercise whilst pregnant. 

I wish juniper would update us too! Which man did she pick?!! Perhaps she is too busy bonking to go online. I hope so


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## Breaking Dawn

Ging. I'm so glad you are doing well :). Wow gluck at yogathon!!

Bliss...i sometimes have a dominant ovary each cycle. So one is more quieter. Then some cycles they switch...generally one ovary is quiet. don't worry :)

Melly...at 3-6 days post my 5dt. i had bizarre dreams..some scary bizarre. I think I had posted about it here too. So maybe this is a good sign :)

Jazz..hope you are doing well.less than 4 months. 


AFM. I think I have morning sickness under control with watered down gatorade and crackers!!


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## gingmg

Yes, I am familiar with the poses I can't do. No abdominal work, no inversions, and no deep twisting, everything else is okay for now. I just tell the teachers before class so they know why I am not doing certain things. My teacher the other day said I should be ok to stay in regular classes throughout the second tri and will move on to prenatal at the end. It's the only thing that keeps me sane, I can't give it up now. I take it easy, don't worry. :)


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## Jazzbird

Sorry if I sounded a bit mean Ging! I worry too much about things  sounds like you are the go to person with yoga!


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## Breaking Dawn

Double post...oops


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## Blythe

Jazzbird - that is so so annoying - i have done that many a time! many thanks for your words - i think i will just wait until i have the scan and make an informed decision. whilst i do like my new lady doc her english is not good enough for me to have a discussion about IVF. Moreover the massage i received afterwards was really full on in the stomach/ovary area so i just can't have that when doing the stimming although i guess needles in the ovaries etc would be ok although the thought of it makes me feel a bit ill if i get all swollen down there!

I do feel vulnerable and a bit gullible really. I paid over 300 but was working out today and have forked out over 3K now on this stuffprobably a lot more and thats not counting all the other supplements which easily takes me over the 6K mark. when i laid down on the bed yesterday having spoken to the doc for at least 15 mins she then asked me if i had ever had acu before! its almost funny.

Briss - you just saying my kidneys are great has made me feel great :) - i think words are so powerful and just reading that has made me feel that actually I'm OK and not falling to bits!

With cold feet in mind i brought two pairs of slippers last weekend - i love them. I don't know what i have been doing avoiding buying them - maybe i was thinking next stopbedpan. 

Melly - when are you testing? crazy dreams is a good sign so fingers crossed :flower:

Breaking - hope it is all going well - it must be difficult counting down the days until the first scan.exciting though :flower:

Gingmg - you are hardcore - go girl! I can barely manage 1/2 hour of yoga.


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## Blythe

Briss - re the NHS appt. I went in there and he asked us some basic questions although most of the stuff was already stated on the form. I think that they do go for the LP protocol as a matter of course when its the first IVF because they have nothing really to go on, also it allows them greater flexibility as to when they can fit you in. However, i really do feel if i had gone in there with more info, more questions i could have pushed for the short protocol. 

tbh i really had very little idea about the various protocols but you do and they may be very accommodating and, indeed may consider another protocol better for you in light of all the info you have and results.


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## Jazzbird

Blythe - you are not gullible. Fertility is such an emotionally charged experience. I nearly bought one of those spells - of course rationally I knew it was rubbish, but my emotions were overruling my rational mind. But acu is one of the more tested alternative treatments so it is understandable that you would trust in it. I do think it is important to research their training and pick one that speaks good English, is honest and up front. I don't like patients being told they have little chance of ivf success whilst the practitioner takes their money week on week. It's not ethical. Most acus I have trained with gave up well paid jobs to fund their £15k training only to end up not making enough money to live. 

A friend of mine who struggled for years to conceive said it was like never ending grief. You will get through this rough patch and find the strength to go on. I hope you have a good friend you can talk to in person because I think you could do with a good hug. And I'm so hoping ivf will work for you first time. 

Xxx


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## kits

Thank you, thank you, THANK YOU ladies! Really appreciated the encouragement, I needed it.. I was in such a dilema!

Blythe, I'm totally with Jazz ^^^^

Don't beat yourself up, we seek alternatives because we really want to try to make something work, we need hope. You're lucky to have been able to afford it because a lot can't and struggle to find other methods of hope. And when you have such a maternal longing, you just want to keep trying & trying.

I would love to give you a really tight hug.


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## kits

^5 Breaking on getting morning sickness under control! :thumbup:

Ging, I hope you have a blast at yogathon, I'm going to start my first yoga class ever on Monday. I hope you do get to take breaks!

Enjoy your break Melly, I love hanging out in Austin. I try to head on over every time I go back to visit.

Jazz, I'm not sure what treatment she's doing specifically but she's very adament on getting rid of my stagnation. She put a needle around my wrist area on my right hand. 2, but possibly 3 needles on my belly. 1 for sure on my left foot & possibly 1 on my right foot. She did say afterwards that she will need to decide on treatment based on whether I'm ttc this cycle or not because then she would do a different treatment. This was after she had already put needles in me so I'm guessing that she's planning for the next session.

Have a brilliant Friday night ladies!
:hug:


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## BBbliss

Jazz, that's such a sweet name Autum, I do have a friend who named her DD summer. It's such a beautiful time right now for you and I'm glad you are not getting distracted by morning sickness anymore. 

Briss, I meant to say before it made me smile to read you and your DH are in a good place :) all is well in love. 

Blythe, we try all we can, I can't even tell you all the "alternative" stuff I've tried, lol

Alison, have fun this wknd I LOVE it when O falls on a weekend it just feels more spontaneous ;)

Ging, have fun with the yogathon, it sounds like such a fun thing to do. dF and I talked about going to a yoga retreat, there's a famous one in the Bahamas we want to go to. He's been to one in Costa Rica. We met on a blind date, but one of the first things my friend told me bout him was that he was really into yoga and that's why I agreed to meet him and I'm so glad I did :)


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## Jazzbird

Kits - that makes sense. A lot of points used to treat stagnation are forbidden in pregnancy - liv 3, gb20 etc. therefore if you are possibly pregnant she can't use those points. 

Happy weekend e everyone! Just polished off my last chocolate egg. It's nice not being sick anymore!


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## Briss

got a shock PEAK this morning??? not a single HIGH and it's only CD10 :( all my hopes of ovulating later this cycle are gone. cant believe this. my CBFM never done this before in all our 33 cycles together. I usually get 2-4 HIGH before a PEAK. HIGH is supposed to be a rise in estrogen? why did it not detect any estrogen increase? My sex drive is up as usual (you do not need really need to know that but this cycle my perverted mind decided to focus on Boris Johnson - hilarious!) so I figured high sex drive = increased estrogen? isn't it how it works? 

I was a bit stressed last night, did my research on TSH and apparently it's not good news and I may have to agree to go on permanent hormonal supplementation cos some clinics refuse to do IVF with my numbers. even Create wanted it to be not higher than 2 and mine was 2.4 two years ago. why is it getting worse?? I checked my records and apparently my TSH was constantly increasing over the last 4-5 years so this result is no accident. also may explain why I am so constantly tired even after I cut my hours at work.


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## Blythe

i know it is really hard but try not to let the CBFM reading get you too stressed. I had months were it did not record any peak readings but i felt very strongly that i had ovulated and i also picked up a positive on other ovulation monitors. if you ovulate tomorrow that is not mean you have an underdeveloped egg - plenty of time there to get that egg ready and you have been BDing so you have not missed it. I know it is a change though and i understand that can be stressful.

it is so exhausting when monitoring our cyclesi have stopped the temping and LH sticks because it didn't really help me get pregnant and i know roughly what is happening now. Having said that i get my EWCM days before my LH reading used to turn positive. 

I really know nothing about FSH but had a look at some of my old readings. the stuff i has says the normal range = 0.40 to 5.00 mU/L. Is this using a difference scale to what you have?


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## Jazzbird

Agree with Blythe Briss. I stopped using clearblue fertility monitor as I don't trust all the readings. I ditched all the monitoring eventually and went with cm and the Internet cheapie ov tests.

Try not to stress - cycles do vary. You are seeing a great acu for FSH - give it some time with him first.

Xxx


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## Briss

thanks ladies, I can always rely on you to make me feel better. it's just I always got more or less the same reading with CBFM, it did skip a few PEAKS but overall it gives me really good indication of O, I stopped everything else but CBFM. just so used to relying on it. also upsetting that my hope for later O came to nothing. I supposed I am lucky DH is up for BD practically any time these days :)

also, just to make me more miserable I got a letter from NZ police with a fine for speeding :( quite a lot and I think it's just the beginning cos it was for our first day. oh dear...

Blythe, I think it's US scale 0.40 to 5.00 but UK is similar it's up to 4.2. however, fertility specialists do not like to see anything above 2, they prefer TSH to be around 1, particularly for IVF. also, they are currently discussing the threshold to be moved down to 3. I am not sure if I should mention this to UCH. afraid they wont take me.


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## alison29

No surge for me this morning I was surprised. Bd anyway. 
Briss wouldn't thyroid meds help u feel better and loose weight easier? 
That sucks about the speeding tickets the sneaky devils.


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## Briss

Jazzbird, do you think i should take the herbs today? I also did OPK and it was positive so I guess I will be O today, just wonder if taking the herbs is a good idea cos they are supposed to be cooling me while with progesterone taking over I should start getting warmer?


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## Jazzbird

Briss I would take them. If your system is hot then your acu may want to keep you on the same herbs throughout the month. I would call him tmrw and ask him for his advice. Do you have his email? If so I would drop him a line. To be honest taking them an extra day will not cause harm. I took you gui wan in 2 ww which has similar ingredients. 

I know you had hoped for later ov but it probably is a bit too soon to have such a big effect. Also try to keep calm - getting stressed will trigger stagnation. Try and trust in the process. 

Hugs to you hun. Xxx


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## Blythe

Briss - as you know i am doing my IVF at an NHS clinic. i have just checked my CD3 bloods they took and they did:

Oestradiol reading
FSH
LH
Full Blood Count
Sickle cell and thalassaemia screen
rubella check

but no check on my TSH 

i know in the past that was done, both at St georges and by my GP.

in any case if they don't test you for it i would not be inclined to draw their attention to it if you feel there is any possibility of them withdrawing the treatment. Its difficult to say - you may find that the doc you meet with is very approachable and considerate of changing the protocol in line with your wishes and previous experiences.


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## Briss

*Jazzbird*, thanks! I am trusting the process and as he said it will take at least 3 months. I am seeing him on tuesday. 

*alison*, you are right, women with under active thyroid feel much better when they get synthetic hormone. my fear is that this is life changing thing cos once you start your thyroid will be relying to synthetic hormone and will work less and less so you will be increasing your dose gradually. there are all sorts of conditions that you can develop out of this dependancy. it's a very tricky situation so I will need to talk to a specialist to make sure i understand what's what. 

*Blythe*, what were your Oestradiol levels? I do not think I ever had Sickle cell and thalassaemia screen. what's it for?

I giess I should wait until I get my app before making conclusions. although I spoke to a few ladies who are at UCH under the NHS and it looks like we may not get to actual treatment this year. the process is incredibly slow. 

for some reason I do not notice much EWCM these days. it used to be at least 2 days and I was getting a lot but after IVFs there is so little and not on O day. I went back to grapefruit juice this cycle and but it did not make a difference. 

I think you are right, I should not volunteer my TSH readings unless they ask. I can tell them I have negative antibodies cos that would help them understand immunology situation. 

Ladies, in case it's helpful just some more info from Dovkav on what she did the cycle she got her BFP. seems a very good list.

"did many different things this time and my embryo quality was not better. It is always A or B. This one was B.

1. No castor oil packs this cycle
2. we did assisted embryo hatching
3. we BD'ed before ET and after ET (w/o orgasm)
4. I walked slowly but long after ET, staying active always, no bed rest
5. aspirin 100mg enteric coated started after ER, quit a day for ET(procedure could cause bleeding) and now I am taking it every evening with food and water
6. I ate lots of fish. I am taking 3g fish oil a day
7. 1000mg green tea extract with vitC after ET till BFP. (reduces inflammation responce)
8. Black carraway oil 20 drops a day. now I slow down to 3 drops
9. spoonfull avocado oil 
10. pinapple and pinapple core after ET till BFP
11 increased vit D from 2000iu to 3000iu a day
12. iron 100mg a day, quit after BFP
13. Green chlorella increased from 1 pill to 3 pills a day
14. Probiotics one pill a day from ET til BFP
15 Sandorn and lemon juice
16. dandelion salat
17. alfa alfa and sweet peas sprouts
18. layed down 30min after ET
19. eating dried plums and abricots
20. ginger root tea, clove, and cinammon
21. water soaked walnuts and brasil nuts
22. I have used organic menstrual pads for 2 months.
23. banana a day(aspirin can thin my intestines and banana thickens them)
24. spicy food , hot peppers in 2ww

I did a lot. I'll never know what helped us this time"


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## Blythe

My oestroadiol levels on CD3 were 259 pmol/L [normal ranges in Follicular phase are 70-500]. My LH was 8 IU/L [normal ranges in follicular phase = 1-12.5]

thanks for putting the dovkav stuff here - if only we knew if it was any of this stuff or just her time. I like the idea of avocado oil and i have been doing the aspirin thing myself this last month. The BDing without an orgasm should not be a problem for me. 


I have just returned from an acu session with my long standing acu doc and against everything i decided earlier in the week i have decided to do powdered herbs and put off IVF for one cycle. Having been told on a number of occasions that my kidneys are not strong enough to support pregnancy i have decided to do acu twice per week, powdered herbs which she has assured me will be changed depending on where i am in cycle [we had a decent conversation today and she does really know her stuff - i have only just gone back to her again recently having been seen by a male doc for most of my sessions this year]. 

So i will take the powdered herbs and shelf the tea pills [jin Kui Shen Qi Wan AND Jia Wei Xiao Yao Wan] i was given by the other doc. I will have to try and explain to her next week that i won't be taking her herbs but working with another doc. as one is near work and one is near home it works for me although i see that it is not ideal working with two separate practitioners but they have both been paid up now. Moreoever, they do the same points, more or less so I'm not feeling to torn over this.

If money was not an issue and we could afford one more round of IVF then i would go in next week and see how the scan goes but I just want to proceed without their words going around and around in my brain. So i will call when i get my next cycle which should be last few days of May. Also I'm hoping this coming cycle will be back to normal without the extended spotting - i have never had it this long.


----------



## Briss

*Blythe*, 259 pmol/L is actually on the higher end of normal (assuming it's CD3). I am beginning to think that estrogen and sex drive are not as related as I thought. maybe it's a combination of hormones or certain balance that produces sex drive? 

The BDing without an orgasm &#8211; I think it's only after ET. actually I had a friend who could not conceive for years and when if finally happened the doc told her no orgasms at all in the fear that it can lead to mc. I thought it complete nonsense but maybe it does make sense. But before O you definitely need orgasms to remind your body that you are still using these parts so need some blood flow to that area. 

I support your decision to wait one more cycle if you feel you really need to. although I would not wait longer than that. it's good that you decided to step up with acu twice a week and on powdered herbs front I so hope this will improve things and regulate your cycle much faster so you are in the best possible shape for IVF. 

working with two separate practitioners may not be a bad idea actually. you will get more info and can check their diagnosis. 

*afm*, mentioned IVF in Germany to DH yet again cos time is running out and it does look like UCH is going to take their time but DH suddenly got really upset. I did not realise that he was actually and sincerely hoping we can do it naturally now that he reduced his beer intake and is undergoing some treatment. I did not know what to say but I've been in this process for 4 years now and I do not think it's going to happen. miracles do happen but it may take more time and may never happen. I cant risk that and miss IVf opportunity. Clearly he only joined my efforts full time this year so he is still coming to terms with all that. 

my temp is much lower than usual, cant even recognise my chart. 

having second thoughts about UCH, the more I read about various experiences of ladies who went there on the NHS the more I feel we are wasting time waiting for this cycle. considering that we are unlikely to get any funding. Appointments are being led by very junior inexperienced doctors and nurses do not seem to work together with the doctors but it's like a separate system cos they have completely different information about the process. basically quite a mess. maybe I've made a mistake and should have gone to Guy's.


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## Jazzbird

Keep going with the herbs Briss - I know it's alarming when you see changes on your chart but I sincerely hope the herbs are clearing the heat in your cycle. Chinese medicine is like peeling off layers of an onion - you treat what is prominent first - then if that improves you can see the underlying deficiency. Heat appears makes pulses feel very full and rapid. But if there is underlying deficiency, once the heat has gone the pulses will change. 

I'm 100% sure your practitioner will know exactly what he's doing - he's far more experienced than me!


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## gingmg

Blythe- Good for you for deciding what is in your best interest as far as taking a cycle to prepare before IVF. I knew you would come to the decision that was best for you. More acupuncture, more herbs.. sounds like a great plan!

Melly-How are you? Holding up okay?

Had my yogathon yesterday. It was AMAZING!!!! There were over 1000 people and the energy of the room was so powerful, inspiring, and moving. It was certainly challenging, and I am quite sore today, but it was a wonderful experience and I am so glad I did it.


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## melly2

ging: your yogathon sounds awesome! Glad you had such a great experience; 1000 people would really be a neat thing to experience. 

AFM: I have not tested yet. I was busy this weekend, so the distraction was welcomed, however, now that I'm at work sitting at my desk (in long, borning meetings), my mind tends to wander more. I have NO idea whether or not I'm pg. My breasts do not hurt, and I expected them to be really sore. Overall, I feel good. I'm not tired either. I do have some cramping in the pelvic region, but nothing major. With all those lack of symptoms, I tend to think I'm not pregnant and maybe it's best for me to hold off and wait until I get the answer from the doctor's office on Friday. :-/ I suppose it's times like these that I'm happy I'm not an overly emotional person, it helps me accept bad news more pragmatically.


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## gingmg

Melly- no symptoms doesn't mean anything! Keeping everything crossed for you!


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## Briss

*Jazzbird*, thanks for you encouragement! I really need it. 

*ging*, your yogathon sounds amazing! I do not know how you do it but you are a real inspiration. still, I probably wont go swimming until tomorrow in case I have not ovulated yet may still need whatever's left of my ewcm 

*melly*, I have everything crossed for you! as gingmg said symptoms do not mean anything. A lady on another thread was sure she was pregnant because she had the same symptoms as when she actually was pregnant but she got a bfn. really strange. I think by 12/13 DPO you are more likely to get the second line so I would not test before that. hoping and praying! 

a friend just gave birth to her second child, she obviously started TTC long after me&#8230; must try and stay positive. particularly now that I know I may have thyroid issue as thyroid reacts quite badly and fast to any excess emotions&#8230; that would keep me in check I think, I am not even crying


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## Blythe

Briss - I'm going through randine Lewis again. See p. 15 for a bit on thyroid issues.....are your eyebrows missing over the outer half of your eye? I have to mine are really thin there....I went mad in the early 90s with plucking and threading and they never really grew back :(

Melly. I have everything crossed for you on Friday. :flower:

Ging. Thanks for your words :flower: I hope that an intense hit of this stuff will make at least some difference


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## Briss

Blythe, I've been fighting my eyebrows all my life. I even used laser to remove hair for good. my face is much nicer and softer with thin eyebrows. but I suffer from hair loss and occasionally extreme fatigue. interestingly Randine Lewis recommends cutting off sugars. I guess I could eat more cooked greens, cos I usually eat them raw as a salad. she also suggested TYROSINE which I am researching now but it seems very controversial. some think this supplement can shut the thyroid down completely. definitely something to raise with an endocrinologist.


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## melly2

bfp!!


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## gingmg

Yay!!!!!!!!!! I am sooooooo happy for you!! Beautiful lines!


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## BBbliss

Wow melly!!!! That's a strong line! I already knew ;)
I'm so happy for you! Looking back it seams it all happened so fast :)

How many dpt?


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## Breaking Dawn

Melly..yayyyyy!!!

So happy for you and that's a great line!!

What a lucky group this is ladies.....who's next?!?! :dance:


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## Wish4another1

Congrats Melly!!! This thread is happening!!!!


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## kits

:happydance: Yay!!!!!!!!! That's amazing Melly!!!!!!!!!!!!! Wooohooooo

:happydance: :happydance: :happydance: :happydance:

Really happy for you!!!


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## melly2

Thanks everyone! I go in for my beta on Friday. 

Bbliss: I was 8 days past the transfer. I couldn't bring myself to test any sooner, I was afraid of the results. ;-)


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## Breaking Dawn

Ging...i cannot believe you are 11 wks!!!! I clicked on your spoiler and was like omg!!!!

When is your next u/s.?

Will you start telling ppl after 12 wks?


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## Briss

*melly*, Wow!!!! That's a strong line! :happydance: :happydance: :happydance: fantastic news!!! so happy for you!


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## Briss

4th appointment: CD 13 / 2 DPO

acu points: Yintang, zigongs, SP 6, ST 36, LV 3, kid 6, no heat lamp. 

herbs: no herbs for after O; from CD1 I start the same formula 

No more acu for 2 weeks so my next app will be on CD2-3

I told him about TSH and he agreed that although my levels strictly speaking within norm they should be much lower for TTC. he said he will take that into account in his treatment but TCM is not the most efficient way to deal with under active thyroid. basically synthetic hormone is the best way. 

I showed him my chart but he said it does really tell us much yet, he wants to see my after O temp and ideally it should be a little higher and stay that high.

re early ovulation, he said we are working to strengthen the first part of my cycle and there are two ways how we can see if the treatment is working (i) it gets longer i.e. I O later, or (ii) we can compare the average temp before and after O to see if the difference is increasing. he said that the fact that my pre O temp was lower this cycle could be an indication of heat going down but not necessarily, all depends on whether my after O temp is going to be higher.


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## Blythe

Congratulations melly - fantastic news x


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## Jazzbird

OMG! 

Huge congrats Melly - what great news! So very happy for you!!!

Domino effect is rippling through this thread. Excited to hear the next BFP!

Xxx


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## Briss

*Blythe*, sorry about AF. but at least you know just one more cycle and hopefully you will get lucky with your IVF. pre AF spotting is annoying but you had good 28 days cycle which is great so things are going back to normal. Hopefully intense acu and herbs will do their job. Are you going to be temping this cycle?


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## alison29

yay Melly! awesome lines


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## Blythe

Thank you Briss :flower: Just been crying most of today - i am simply not able to hold it together at the moment.

I see you have a nice big temp jump - always good to see a clear temp shift instead of those ones that slowly climb and go back down again. Its great that you are having a break from herbs after ovulation. every post i read about your doc the more i like the sound of him.

I really thought that TCM would have a good effect on balancing your whole endocrine system. Are you going to take the thyroid results up with your doctor? I wonder whether they would prescribe anything given you are within normal ranges.

my DH has not been able to move properly for over 4 days - he has sciatic pain in one of his legs which is causing him immense pain. He has been having boiling baths so i cannot imagine his SC would have been any good had we gone ahead this month. The thing is Im just not the nursing type and after a couple of days of doing everything for him i no longer have the patience for it. He has been laying down for days and groans loudly when he moves. I have no sympathy as he has had niggling pains for ages but never gets anything done unless it really hurts but now it is too painful so he cannot even go out and get it looked at. He is getting in my way and i just don't like it.


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## Briss

*Blythe*, I am sorry you have been feeling like that but to tell you the truth I am barely holding up myself these days. although I am not crying cos every time I am about to cry I immediately think about my thyroid and how it's going to affect it and just stop there. there is still hope so I must carry on.

it's unusual for me to have a temp jump, my temp usually goes up very slowly after O but then it's usually higher in the second part of TWW. i really want to see what my temp is like this TWW.

Dr E actually said my GP may ignore me cos my TSH is within norm but hopefully they can refer me under my work insurance. 

I am sorry about your DH, how terrible it is to be in pain. is it possible to get a doc to do a home visit? you must be exhausted looking after him. no idea why men are always like that, impossible to get them to see a doc until it's so bad it's almost beyond treatment. I really hope your DH will feel better soon 

I agree re dr E, I even wish I found him sooner and started treatment right after my second failed IVF. I enjoy his acu it's not painful at all and herbs are OK and financially it's manageable.


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## gingmg

Blythe- I am so sorry to hear you have been crying most of today. Days like this suck!! Sending huge :hugs:. Sometimes though, you need to have days like this, get it out, cry it out, and then when you are ready you will pick yourself up, dust yourself off, and get back in the fight:flower:


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## BBbliss

Blythe, I'm so sorry you are having one of those bad days... But I keep looking at your journey and can't help by think you are just one step closer. You have a really great plan for yourself and you need to pat yourself on the back and know you've done an incredible job at taking care of all the details all you have to do now is take a deep breath an stay the corse. YouRe doing it!


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## BBbliss

Melly, you silly girl, there was no way you were getting a bfn! You can call it a psychic intuition ;)


I like this domino effect on this thread and I hope to jump right in :D soon!!!


Afm, I just got back from key west, I spent three days with a best friend there and we had some laughs, walking around on flip flops watching the sunset, buying gifts for ourselves, sun tanning. It was amazing, I had a job down there and brought her with mw since DF couldn't take the days off from work. I just got in the best mood getting ready for my upcoming transfer and I hope to keep it up all month :) DD is in better spirits too so ALL is well.


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## gingmg

Bbliss- awe I love key west! Glad you had a nice time!


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## kits

Ahhhh! Lost my post, grrrr!!

Blythe, I totally agree with Ging, sometimes you just need these days to release all the built up emotion so you can start fresh again. Sending you all the hugs. Said a prayer for you last night.

And if it weren't for you I would've totally given up on this cycle, thank you so much for giving me that extra kick of hope when I needed.

Keep your chin up, good things will come to you & your family.

Loads of :hug: :hugs:


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## kits

My temp has gotten really high, I think my acupuncturist has overheated me yesterday. She used a stick that she burned to make it hot & hovered it over my lower abdomen.

Keep trying to cool my legs off!


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## Blythe

Kits - you have a nice temp rise there post ovulation. I have never had the moxa stuff burned on me before but I guess it heats/stimulates the meridian. Jazzbird will know about this. 

Ladies. Thanks so much for your words. My most recent breakdown has lasted longer than most but I feel myself coming out of it now. 

Briss I how you are ok. I saw from your earlier post that your friend has just had her second. Hang on in there...it will happen for you. I'm very sure of that. :flower:


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## melly2

Blythe: So sorry you had a bad day. Those emotional days are so draining, but sometimes it's good just to get it out. 

Bbliss: Key West sounds so nice and relaxing. Lucky you! Glad you're getting some R&R in before the transfer. 

Briss: Hope all is well with you!

Hope everyone is doing well.


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## alison29

Hi everyone :)
Blythe it maybe good to mention that most times putting ice on inflamed tissue is a much better idea then heat. Our therapist told my dh it's almost always not so great to do heat. So suggest ice. Before my dh learned this we used to have a hot tub I am so glad that thing is history! Maybe you could get him a soft ice gel thingy. My dh wants to get one for his problem shoulder as ice in a bag is too much of a hassle and not soft for himself to use.

I hope u feel better today.


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## alison29

BRISS i just have to commiserate on the friend having her second. There is a family i new at dayccare that since i have been trying to get pg I noticed got divorced, and apparently the new mom has already remarried and has a 7 month bump I just saw her the other day.


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## Briss

alison, a friend (another one who had a baby while I've been TTC) just announced her divorce and my first thought was that's fine cos she is probably going to find a new guy, remarry and have a baby before me anyway. I cant even feel sorry for people these days, so sad&#8230; I remember a colleague was considering leaving the firm but she wanted a baby and was concerned that she would need to work 2 years at a new place before she can get proper maternity pay so obviously she left, worked 2 years, got pregnant and had a baby &#8211; all while I have been TTC. it's natural to feel depressed cos most people have had lives while most of us have been stuck in TTC nightmare


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## Breaking Dawn

Alison..briss...i have stories like that too and it's soo hard to be happy.

One friend who's wedding i attended while I had been ttc for so long. She came back from her honeymoon pregnant. 

Another...had 2 while I've been trying for one. 

Dealing with this is hard enough but seeing others do it so so easily makes it so much harder to deal with.


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## Breaking Dawn

Alison..briss...i have stories like that too and it's soo hard to be happy.

One friend who's wedding i attended while I had been ttc for so long. She came back from her honeymoon pregnant. 

Another...had 2 while I've been trying for one. 

Dealing with this is hard enough but seeing others do it so so easily makes it so much harder to deal with.


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## Blythe

I had another acu session with my new acu doc yesterday. She came up to me and cuddled me. Im not really a cuddling type but she is so lovely that i felt quite chocked up after my cuddle.

the acu session is quite intenseshe keep fiddling with the needles and looks like she is playing an instrument at some points when she is fiddling with one and then two together. I feel quite done in still at the moment and i was thinking perhaps this is my body and mind having a clear out and that maybe the acu and herbs are having this effect on memaybe i am rebalancing or something like that.

Jazzbird - she stuck a needle in my chest between my boobs - do you know what this is for?

Briss - have you been swimming this week? How is the choc/sugar avoidance going?

Alison - many thanks for the tip - we have some of those soft ice things so that is what he is going to be using from now on.

In the last 3 weeks i have lost 6 lbs and i really think it is down to my fitbit. i really love it and it really does motivate me to move more and track what i eat.


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## gingmg

Blythe- I bet you are right. Sometimes when I get back into yoga after not doing it for awhile, I'm very emotional and cry more. Its like my body and mind are being reset so to speak and getting cleared out. Its very detoxifying. Hope you start to feel better soon.


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## Briss

*melly*, how are you feeling? very best of luck with your beta. is it tomorrow? 

*Blythe*, I noticed that Chinese docs see acu quite differently it's not about relaxing. being is pain is considered a good sign that the point is working. My previous Chinese doc was trying to explain that to me when I complained about my left zigong she was really happy and was saying that's good! another Chinese doc also did some sort of body scrubbing thing which was way outside my pain threshold and similarly the more painful it was the more she pressed on that particular point. she said the pain means something is not right so we need to work more on that area to clear it. 

My previous doc also needled a point in my chest between my boobs. I wonder what it was. 

well done on losing 6 lbs!! I should get one of those fitbit things to motivate me. 

I have not been swimming this week&#8230; I know I should but I just could not force myself to go. how very disappointing. but I do take lunchtime walks. My choc/sugar avoidance is going OK. Last week I had ice cream and 3 t.sp of fruit sugar in my black coffee (a pot not a cup) and that was it! Have not had anything naughty yet this week (staying well clear off our office kitchen) but I do have cravings. The other day was walking home and dreaming about white bread, I could even smell freshly baked while bread! there was no bakery around it was all in my head. I think I will eat something naughty on weekend. eating blueberries everyday is so expensive but that's my main desert and tonnes of nuts. I think my weight gain slowed a little bit. but I started eating less, just could not sustain eating so much

*afm*, my temp is very low after O, my chart is not accurate cos I've been adjusting it, it's actually lower than it shows. I guess it means things are not improving yet. also it might be to do with thyroid cos apparently people with under active thyroid have lower body temperature. I am also cramping a lot. last cycle I had cramping and it was followed by spotting :(


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## kits

Congrats on the weight loss Blythe. I'm so tempted to get one now. I don't care about being a bit over weight in general but sometimes I panic especially if I were to actually get pregnant.

My ACU doesn't fiddle too much with the needles, but just until I can feel them.

I'm glad she gave you a cuddle, even if you're not the cuddling type, I believe caring is a great healer.

My temp dropped a bit, not going to dwell on it too much..


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## kits

Sorry to hear about your temps Briss, wish I had some words of wisdom for you. Only thing I can think of is to have a nice, warm bath.

Hope you get answers soon!


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## alison29

I heard that about underactive thyroid and temps too. I have been eating blueberries with heavy cream as my treat too. IT helps that my dh has a bunch of bushes at his plant nursery so they have been free this week. I started eating fruit again. I just could not get enough fill with cheese, nuts and brocolli. Whatever blueberries and strawberries are good fruit choices for lower sugar.
Other then that i have eaten a couple of the tiny quaker oats chocolate cover granola bars..thats my confession oh and and a few fries last night (glycemic index 100!)


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## Briss

*alison*, you have been doing really well. I have replaced my yogurts with ricotta &#8211; low sugars, it has protein, little fatty but all cheeses are https://www.waitrose.com/shop/ProductView-10317--129716-essential+Waitrose+ricotta+Italian most importantly I find it delicious! On good days I can also eat quark &#8211; low in everything but good source of protein https://www.tesco.com/groceries/Product/Details/?id=260836419 either of those with berries and banana = delicious desert (or maybe it's just me cos I have not had my usual sugar in weeks!) 

*kits*, thanks! hot bath sounds lovely. I just wish higher progesterone levels would drive my temp higher. I still have synthetic ones left from my IVFs but I really want my body to do it on its own. otherwise it almost feels like cheating


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## Jazzbird

Re points hurting - in China they are far more brutal with acupuncture. They use thicker needles and are more rigorous with their needling technique. In UK there us a movement towards gentler needling. I personally don't think the pain actually means that much. When you needle someone, if you have hit a point there is a pull on the needle - otherwise it's like sliding a needle in and out of butter. That's why you don't really need the patient to feel anything to know that you have located the point correctly.

Briss - sorry to hear your temps are lower. Could it be that having taken out the false or empty heat - that your underlying diagnosis in tcm terms is actually kidney yang deficiency? I had practically no difference from follicular to literal phases when I started out ttc. With acu and herbs it changed quite dramatically after a few months of treatment. I'm hoping that you will see a difference soon. You can put your feet in hot water for 10 minutes every night or put a hot water bottle behind your kidneys to help elevate temp. 

Btw in acu terms the absolute temp is not as important as the temp jump. I will look it up tonight in my fertility book.

Blythe I am so sorry you have been so low. I wish I had some words of comfort or wisdom. All I know is that you will recover from this downer and will be stronger again. You have been such a tower of strength and positivity on this thread and I hope you have been able to find similar solace from the ladies here. Hugs to you.

This thread does seem to be doing well in terms of recent successes - so I have every hope that your turn will come too.

Xxx


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## Blythe

Jazzbird - thank you :flower: BTW do you know what that point is between boobs on chest plate?

Briss - well done on the sugar front - you have been doing exceptionally well. Today i met with a friend and went to the jean paul gautier exhibition in the barbican.it was wonderful. We stayed in the main building and had afternoon tea so my diet is blown for today. Complete sugar overload but lovely although considering the price they charged i was less than impressed that they charged extra for more tea and then just toped up instead of replacing the leavesi mean it is merely pence for them to do that. 

I have been reading a great little book called chi self massage and found a point of the hands for stimulating the thyroid gland - i will take a pic later and upload. Just give it a good massage and keep massaging until you feel no pain/lumps etc etc

Alison - i was eating clotted cream today [but with scones not blueberries] - it was heavenly. I think as long as you balance your fruit with cream that is fineyin/yang, good/bad - its all about balance :thumb up:

I am 42 today and feel quite good although DH has not sorted out a gift - i am less than impressed.


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## Briss

Blythe, happy birthday!!! what an excellent way to spend birthday! you had perfect excuse for sugar overload. wishing you a very successful (TTC and otherwise) year and hoping you will get your miracle baby before your next birthday 

re presents, DH is totally useless so I usually tell him what I want (more than once) otherwise he will just "forget" 

Gaultier is quite controversial but it does look very interesting. I am tempted (mostly the tea/cake part unfortunately)&#8230; I've been stuffing myself with dry figs imagining they are cakes

chi self massage sounds good. was it this book - https://www.amazon.co.uk/Chi-Self-M...d=1398963242&sr=8-1&keywords=chi+self+massage please definitely send me the thyroid bit, I really want to try everything naturally before going on synthetic hormone


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## Blythe

here is the pic - i hope it is large enough to see.

i missed the controversy re Gaultierto be honest a lot of his clothes are crap but i am fascinated by corsets and love to see how he has done them. I wonder if you were thinking of Galliano and his 'nazi' comments.now his clothes really are beautiful but i cannot imagine anyone sponsoring an exhibition of hisyet anyhow.
 



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## Blythe

PS - yes that is the book - I really like it and would recommend it.


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## BBbliss

Blythe, happy birthday! I makes a lot of sense to me you felt sensitive these past few days, birthdays are a time of re-birth, a death of the old self and transition to a new energy. I believe it was a good thing you had some tears, the emotional body carries a lot of energy and when you release it that way it really opens you up to new perspectives. And yes, ACU, yoga, meditation, massages, being in nature, all this things feel the soul and sometimes the emotional release is undeniable. It's a good thing. Enjoy your NEW self, happy birthday!!!


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## Jazzbird

Happy birthday Blythe - agree with BBbliss - think this is why you've been feeling low. Birthdays suck, esp when ttc. Although I conceived on my last birthday so get down and dirty  

I think the point was probably ren 15 or it might have been ren 16. If it was ren 15 it's probable function is to calm the spirit and regulate the heart. I like to think it lifts the patients heart when they are feeling low, or depressed. I've had it done a few times and found it very grounding. 

Itchy boobs for me tonight, bloating and farting. No acupuncture points with those functions!!!


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## Jazzbird

Ps - I so agree with BBbliss about emotions. I've seen patients perfectly happy just start crying the moment needles are inserted. You have needed this emotional release, so embrace it - really feel all the pain because it is temporary and it will go. Perhaps you released a block.


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## Jazzbird

Sorry last post! I just thought about it and I love watching long lost family on itv3 mon 9 pm. They reunite mothers, fathers with children they gave up etc. I always end up in floods of tears but I find it very therapeutic. I think it is very healthy to have a good cry, esp if you are going through a tough time.


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## alison29

Happy Birthday To you Blythe.. some authority on the internet said the fat (cream or whatever) is good to have with the fruit because it helps you to absorb all the good nutrients.


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## kits

:cake: Happy Birthday Blythe!! :cake: If your hubby didn't treat you, then make sure you treat yourself extra special :D


Glad you got to spoil yourself, no diets allowed on birthdays :happydance:


Lots of hugs ladies :D


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## kits

Had my first pilates class ever (never got to make my first yoga class on Monday as I ended up getting a new cat!) and it made my boobs sore! Apart from that I really enjoyed it.

Ended up getting the fitbit too, my sister has one & she's lost 8 pounds. I can be so lazy so I'm really looking forward to getting that kick I need to end my relationship with the sofa.

Jazz, do you know much about moxa sticks? My acupuncturist was really keen on warming me up & extending my LP since we decided to go for it this month. But man! Did I feel warm yesterday. I knew straight away there was a temp shift this morning.. hope it's ok!

Hope you're all doing well & that Melly, Ging, Jazz & Breaking (sorry if I missed any other Mommies to be) are having a healthy pregnancy!

:hug:


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## gingmg

:cake: happy birthday Blythe!


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## Briss

*Blythe*, thanks!! Will start doing the hand thing immediately! 

did I get my facts wrong? for some reason I was sure it was Gaultier who made 'nazi' comments? anyway I do love his corsets as well.

all this talk about who ate what made me absolutely desperate and I ended up having second cappuccino with dark chocolate in the pm :( I did not even like it, it just does not do it for me anymore, maybe I needed a cake. I did not finish it anyway, what's the point of loading myself with sugar if I cant even enjoy it. 

*BBbliss*, it's so interesting what you said about birthdays and so true. I cant deal with my birthdays so usually try to "escape" it, I beg DH to take me away for a few days and it helps survive it.


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## Jazzbird

Kits - at what part of your cycle did she use moxa? I've had it just before and around ovulation. Mine used to do it to encourage ovulation - to turn yin into yang. It's important that the temp rises prominently but mine would sometimes take a week to fully shift in short increments. When I had moxa it would shift more prominently.

You should definitely mention any after effects though - I think the fact you felt so hot might be useful for your acu to know.

It must seem like witchcraft but all moxa really does is warm your uterus, encourage ov and increase temp/ progesterone to ensure luteal phase is high enough and long enough. 

I had very low progesterone - too low according to docs to conceive but I eventually did - not sure how much of it was down to Chinese medicine but my charts improved quite dramatically with treatment.


----------



## kits

Thanks Jazz :)

She used it the day after ovulation. I will definitely mention the heat to her. I think her main objective was to warm my uterus & extend my LP.

Do you think I could use it on myself like tonight or tomorrow? I'm worried my temp is going down.

Although this morning doesn't count :grr: cat kept scratching at the door & carpet so I jumped out of bed to sort him out before I could check my temp. So pissed off because I was really hoping my temp would rise today. Darn cat. He's living out his 9 lives very quickly.

Still trying to stay positive but slowly loosing hope this cycle. 

Is it OK to have ACU more than once a week? Really want to give my little nemo a home!


----------



## Blythe

Kit there is nothing wrong with your temps. You should be looking for evenish temps that stay above cover line....you have that so please don't worry. Even of you get a dip below cover line for a day or two it's the overall pattern that's important and your chart looks nice and healthy. Sometimes those temp drops can indicate implantation too :)


----------



## Jazzbird

Kits - def don't do anything at home. Your acu will have trained for 4 years and will have a proper treatment plan for you. Best to trust in her - if you want to get involved ask her next time if there is anything you can do at home.

I know it's hard but it's important to trust in your practitioner.


----------



## melly2

Blythe: Happy birthday...belated! I hope you had a great day!

Briss: Sorry about the temps dropping. 

Hope everyone is doing well.

Had my first beta yesterday and I had very good strong numbers. The doctor was quite pleased with that. My progesterone went up as well, so she was pleased with the way everything looked.  I go in for another second beta on Monday morning. Hopefully it's trending up nice and strong. 

I am back to running again, albeit, slower and not quite as far. I'm reading a book on healthy pregnancy and it says that one can resume normal exercise, but just make sure not to get dehydrated or overheat. Being in Texas and summer, that's easier said than done, so it'll be early morning runs with lots of water at my side. Of course, I'll listen to my body, so if it says to stop, then I will. I won't do anything stupid and push it unnecessarily.


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## Briss

melly, excellent news on your beta! congratulations! 

afm, totally blew it today, had a cake followed by pancakes followed by chocolate (not the dark kind)...


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## Jazzbird

Unsubscribed by accident again!


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## Blythe

Briss and Kits - both your charts look healthy. I put my thermometer next to my bed and keep forgetting.i will start again tomorrow.

i went for acu today and collected new herbs. she wanted to know exactly where i was in my cycle and put in some new herbs as period has finished and is looking to improve egg quality. i should ask her to write down the prescription but I'm at the point where all i would do is spend hours researching each ingredient and be none the wiser so i am just putting myself entirely in her [and my other docs] hands.

when she came to remove the needles she pointed to the next treatment room and said "she is pregnant" in an excited voice."naturally too". Woopy f**king do! 

Still i am very happy that at last someone is changing the herbs depending on where i am in cycle.although same points needled.

Briss - don't worry about the cake/choc/pancake yesterday..its all about balance. As long as that does not happen everyday i think you can indulge a couple of times a week. 

i am still having tea/coffee everyday and wonder if this will hold me back from getting pregnant. i will try and give up during IVF cycle though.


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## Briss

Blythe, it's so great that she is changing the herbs depending on where you are in your cycle. I think it would still be good to have a list of the ingredients for your records. Jazzbird might be able to decode it for you. I find herbs really tricky and researching each herb separately just does not help understand how the formula works.

I really wish she would not mention the pregnant woman next door. how is this helping? she clearly never had fertility issues herself so cant imagine what's it like. but still, if her herbs work that all that matters. 

yesterday was just the beginning, i am like a junky once I tested the sugar I just cannot stop, had pastry with poppy seeds for breakfast followed by a desert today :( I will probably run to the shops for some more pastry tomorrow morning, cant stop thinking about it. together with coffee it was simply divine ... 

my chart looks OK but the temp is disappointingly low. i do not mind taking my temp every morning but it really annoys DH

just ordered a new book "do less achieve more" it's about business but i am sure i can apply this philosophy to TTC. I am hoping it will explain the whole "relax and it will happen" thing. the key to success (my definition of success is a viable pregnancy and lots of healthy babies) is the right state of mind apparently. I am told that wanting something badly may have opposite effect and stops you getting it. basically letting go thing which i am not good at


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## Delphine11

Briss, I really sympathise with both the desire for coffee and pastries in the morning, and the difficulty of relaxing.

I do indulge in pastries sometimes (I had a pain au chocolat this morning) but on those days I try to make up for it by having super-healthy stuff later like extra veg and fruit and things like avocado and oily fish. To me, this is all linked in with the 'trying to relax' stuff. I'm strict most of the time, but not too strict because I imagine that'll actually be counter-productive and stress me out or make me tense. 

I have the occasional glass of wine, I had coffee this week (although I normally avoid it). It's all about getting a balance - getting a healthy fertility diet but not getting so worried it makes me stressed. I also find it helps to concentrate on choosing from what I _can_ eat, rather than thinking about what I can't. And I treat myself with exotic fruit, or posh veg, or expensive oily fish like wild salmon.

The 'trying to relax' bit is hard because as time goes by, it's perfectly understandable to get anxious. If I had £1 for every time I'd sat here worrying about my age (I'm 46) I'd be a millionnaire! Sometimes I go through phases of beating myself up about it and telling myself all kinds of cr*p - my ovaries are rubbish, I'm too old, it'll never happen, etc etc. But then I remind myself, there's always a way and that there are plenty of options and things to try.

To help the relaxing, I take something called She Oak. I don't take it all the time - just for one month when i'm feeling particularly stressed, then not again for a few months. I got it here:

https://www.baldwins.co.uk/supplements-essences/flower-essences/australian-bush-essences/individual-essences/australian-bush-flower-essences-she-oak-15ml

It sounds daft but I really felt it helped. I had one month last year when I felt desperate and so tearful and stressed. I then read about the She Oak, bought some, and had 7 drops in the morning and 7 drops in the evening (under my tongue) and within a few days I felt noticeably calmer.

It's _hard_ trying to conceive, it really is. To be positive and balance your hopes against your worries is really difficult. 

I don't know if any of that helps, but I hope it does. Remember every little thing you do can help - it's all tiny steps towards your goal. So concentrate on all the good things you've done (and it sounds like you're doing a lot). I make myself do that every morning and evening, and it does help and it stops the panic that can sometimes build up.


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## Briss

Today I had 2 pains au chocolat followed by a huge cinnamon swirl :( I could not help it, I went to the shops as soon as I woke up could not think of anything else :( It's really bad but I will try to get back to no sugars from tomorrow. *Delphine*, you are quite right I need to relax and allow myself some naughty stuff maybe 1-2 times a week which can help sustain my no sugars diet long term.

I am very curious about She Oak, never heard of this before. am going to look into that. 

just realised that all my pregnacare vitamins have iodine in them. can it be that this is what's affecting my thyroid? I did not realise that I was actually supplementing with iodine


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## Blythe

isn't iodine good for thyroid

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-23103/Which-foods-help-underactive-thyroid.html


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## alison29

I was bad yesterday and this morning too. Bought some gluten free chocolate chip cookies (what was I thinking!) I am going to chuck the rest in the dumpster right now. My acu lady had me take sea kelp when she thought i had sluggish thyroid for the iodine.


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## melly2

Blythe said:


> isn't iodine good for thyroid
> 
> https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-23103/Which-foods-help-underactive-thyroid.html

It is. I'm reading a good book about the Iodine Crisis. I've been taking j.crow's iodine for awhile; though right now, I'm not since I'm pg.


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## Briss

my mum's thyroid was shut by iodine. it's controversial and not entirely clear when it helps thyroid and when it completely destroys it. I was always careful not to have iodine but completely forgot about it while TTC and did not check my multi supps. I will ask endocrinologist about it and a few other supps (such as tyrosine) that are used in thyroid hormone production if my GP refers me. in theory it seems logical to supplement with these elements as thyroid uses iodine and tyrosine to manufacture T3 and T4. but in practice it does not seem to work like that. I do not quite understand it but I know that too much or too little iodine can damage the thyroid and supplementing can shift this fragile balance.


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## kits

I just wanted to quickly drop by & say sorry for staying away.

Thought it best for my sanity to stay away from bnb during my tww. So sorry for seeming so rude. Really wish all of y'all all the best. I'll be back in a day or 2!!

Also broke my bbt so that's thrown my little routine off.

Loads of :hug: ladies!!!


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## melly2

Briss: that's interesting about your mom's thyroid and iodine. 

AFM: Follow-up beta and it's up to 4,400. That's pretty good and the doctor is happy, so now we're scheduled for an ultrasound on May 16th.


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## Briss

melly, wonderful news! congratulations!!


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## BBbliss

That's awesome melly! Looking real good there ;)


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## gingmg

Great news melly!


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## Blythe

Melly great news :happydance:


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## Briss

UCH is asking me do the ovarian reserve testing all over again to determine whether IVF is the right option for us. how very depressing. I wonder if I can somehow cheat my FSH/AMH? I was thinking of taking estradinol which can suppress FSH (just until I've done the test) but then they will also check my estroginol level so they will see it's abnormally high and discount FSH result. also since I have short cycles my estradinol rises naturally quicker so by day 4 it'll be high enough on its own to supress FSH but then again I do not know if FSH is also increasing by day 4? My head is spinning what do I do to get FSH lower by next week? they did not sound terribly enthusiastic about us and said in very exceptional circumstances they can offer natural IVF under NHS but very unlikely. I do not even know what to hope for. 

my temp depresses me cos it's terribly low for post O and it's getting even lower. I am suspecting something is not right with my thyroid which lowered my body temp so much before and after O. I doubt 12 days of herbs could have done it.


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## Blythe

Briss - you really are spinning with this one. all you can do is get the bloods done and wait and see what they say.you are working with a great guy to reduce the FSH so you never know that may be working already and it may be reflected in your results. I wonder what they have as their bar for ok'ing treatment

I really have no clue about what supplements you could take that would have an effect within such a short space of time. i would avoid any supplements which could effect it anyhow as they would use those results to determine what meds you would take so you want that to be right.

I was thinking of you yesterday morning and had a very strong feeling you would be announcing a pregnancy and that it would happen naturally for you. I hope it is a premonition and that it comes true for you very soon :flower:


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## Briss

Blythe, I am really bad at letting go and I do not think dr E's treatment can have results so quickly. I pretty much know my FSH is going to be either high or very high. so cheating is the only way :( they did not say what's their cut off as they want to keep their options open I guess. and they are not going to give me another chance and repeat the tests if they happen to be bad next cycle (unless something is very off) 

I am actually thinking of loading myself with vitamin D cos i think it can artificially increase AMH. he said 7 was too low my september one was below 7 so it cant be naturally more than that something has to be done. I am panicking like my life depends on this. 

he told me with my stats it's most likely going to be a short protocol. 

totally love your premonition! so nice to hear that somebody believes it can happen for us. I even feel like I believe it myself! 

I am feeling like I am about to start spotting again and wonder if I should check my progesterone tomorrow before work. hate to get up so early so maybe not. I've been taking strong B vitamin complex but it does not seem to be working here


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## mandi21a

I got my TCM acupuncture bfp after 21 months, I specifically was looking for this thread to give you ladies hope... I did 2x a week (mon and Friday) acupuncture, along with herb pills (angelica, and the little round black ones) as well as the tea of roots and bark which I truly believe is key! ... On my first apt. I asked him how long until it works, he told me 3-4 months ... 3 rd month, BFP !!... The first 2 months were no trying. And even when I tried and lied saying I didn't, he felt my pulse and called me on my BS ! So the 2nd month I legitimately didn't try (which was very hard) .. He was born and studied in china, which is all I would go for, not an American/canadian trained. Please ask any questions, I'm happy to answer. I would strongly recommend anyone I know to try TCM before fertility treatments. 
Keep our hopes up and good luck !!!


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## Breaking Dawn

Hello ladies....sorry for being MIA. I've been on a course for work and it's drained every ounce of what energy I have left.

Hope everyone is dong well....I hope to catchup with all of you on Friday. (Vacation day + u/s day) eek!


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## Blythe

Briss. My amh is lower than yours and it was not an issue. I'm glad they are looking at SP as I know that was your preference. 

Breaking hello :flower: please report back on scan....very exciting:flower:

Mandi - it's great that it worked for you. Congratulations


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## Jazzbird

Briss - sorry to read about the clinic. Are you going for ivf under NHS or privately? Would it make a difference or would they still come to the same conclusion?

I agree with Blythe - I know it's hard but you must let go and hope the results will be ok. If they aren't, you are doing something about it. I still think your herbs can make a difference this quickly. What is Dr E advising? 

There is one thing I am certain of with you Briss - you will find a way - you are determined and that's what counts. Trying to mess with your FSH will only hurt you in the long run. So very hard to but you must trust it will be ok. 

Xxx


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## Briss

spotting again :( 11 DPO! definitely need to check my progesterone. it's not just spotting it always comes with very particular AF type feeling/mild cramping, do not even know how to describe it but I just know it's an indication of AF but it usually happens just before AF not 5 days before AF. it cant be nothing cos it's third cycle in a row + lower body temp, something is up. Cant understand what's happening. Could the trip to NZ affect my hormones? I did read somewhere that sometimes travelling to different time zones can affect health. is it really possible?

*Blythe*, I guess your lower AMH was not an issue cos of good FSH and really good AFC. they told me they look at all three in combination. 

*Jazzbird*, at the moment it's under the NHS. I am not sure what happens if they decide IVF is not for us. I doubt the private unit will take us so we will probably have to go privately to Lister clinic or Germany. I guess you are right I should not mess with my hormones considering that my cycle is totally our of order as it is. 

*Mandi*, congratulations, H&H 9


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## BBbliss

Briss, look at your sig "everything will be all right..." Have faith, try to put your attention on everything that's going right for you, you ARE in good health, you take good care of yourself, you are going above and beyond in every aspect of TTC, your relationship has improved, pat yourself on the back and buy yourself some flowers you deserve it! 

Breaking, good luck on your U/s! How exiting to be there already! 


I was in NYC last weekend for my sister's BBshower and really tried to soak in all that creating life energy, she looks really beautiful. I was at one of my favorite stores in the city and picked up a book about child birth, opened it on the first chapter, first paragraph and it read "Have you ever heard your unborn children calling? Long before my son was born I could hear him", I smiled to myself and bought the book. I'm almost half way through the book and I love it. It's parked with exercises and meditations on everything from letting go of the past, misconceptions, old stories, traumas, bad energy and more on creating a new perspective and preparing to conceive, caring and birthing a new life. I recommend! It's called DreamBirth by Catherine Shainbrg. It's really helping me stay positive and calm waiting for my FET. I had a scan today and my lining is 8mm and they will call me later with instructions if I should take my estrace prescription or when to start my progesterone shots. FET will be Tuesday or Wednesday next week. I'm also going to start daily Reiki on my second chakra and continue after transfer. 

I hope all my ladies are doing well, Jazz, ging, melly, breaking, Blythe, Alison and kits :)


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## Briss

my 11 DPO progesterone came at 10.5 ng/ml which is confusing. it seems to be a different scale which I do not quite understand. Does anyone know if this is a high enough level or not?

ref:
Follicular 0.10 - 0.54
Luteal 1.50 - 20.0
Ovulation 0.12 - 6.22
Menopause < 0.41

I think (from my reading) on this scale they want 15-20 to confirm ovulation (which is around 7 DPO and when progesterone production peaks) but 11 days after O progesterone starts to decrease gradually (I think) so it can be lower I am just not sure by how much. I am pretty sure I ovulated based on my temp/CBFM. am I correct to think that 10.5 ng/ml is too loo for 11 DPO and my progesterone is dropping earlier than it should, which can explain the spotting? 

I wonder if my corpus luteum is not great because of some problem with follicles: poor follicles make for poor corpus luteum

still confusing cos some say 10 is enough for good ovulation which means it should be considered a pretty high level for 11 DPO https://trmbaby.com/for-patients/library/testing/women/ovulation/serum/ but then why am I spotting?


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## gingmg

Briss- I spot before every AF too, it was always so frustrating, but no one at the clinic seemed to care, especially because I eventually moved on to fertility drugs and progesterone supplementation. Not sure why they never thought it was a big deal. I was always convinced that my progesterone levels were low, but no one ever checked. I think a level of greater than 10 is good for a natural cycle and greater than 15 or 20 for a medicated cycle (or so I have read on here). I hope you can get it sorted out. For an IVF cycle you will be on supplementation so it will be ok. There was a few cycles last year that I bought over the counter progesterone cream, don;t remember if it helped the spotting or not, but figured it couldn't hurt. I would think 10.5 is very good for 11dpo, you probably were even higher a few days ago.

BBliss- Love the book. You always seem to pull me right out of what ever head space I can get stuck in. Thank you. Ahhhh transfer is soooooo close now!!!! YAY!!


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## alison29

Just wanted to say Hi. I don't have answers today. :(


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## kits

:happydance: Congrats Mandi!:happydance:

It's funny how I get so envious whenever I hear of anyone getting pregnant in real life, but as soon as one of us here announces a BFP, it's amazing & totally awesome news!! Funny huh?

Briss, I agree with the ladies. Try to take it easy, but I wish I had half your determination. Hang in there chick, good things will come! :D

I thought staying away would help during my TWW, but it's not made that much of a difference :nope: .. I'm a bit blue waiting. I'm not sure why.

On top of that I'm not getting any acupuncture until the 27th!

*Sigh* I have a whole bunch of internet HPT cheapies & yep I've been testing on several days & they've all been negative. On top of that my BBT thermometer broke so my chart has been all funky which gets me down. Not sure of it's accuracy. I felt almost as warm as the last time my temp peaked yet the numbers were quite low today :(

Might have to spend the money I'm saving on my acu on a massage to pick me up.

I did take a spinning class on Tuesday, I debated all day as to whether to take it or not because I thought I shouldn't be doing any exercises that were too extreme, but i went for it anyway.

Sorry for venting ladies.

Best of luck & loads of :hug:


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## BBbliss

Aww thank you ging, right after I posted I went back to my book and the very next paragraph said "don't let your mind run away with " what ifs" and catastrophic or negative thoughts. Trust that the light guiding your feet on the path of well-being and happiness will not fail you and will guide you all the way" 

I must have read that line 10 times, LOL 

So my estrogen level is great and I start progesterone tonight and FET is Tuesday afternoon, yay!


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## Blythe

Briss - just a quick one. See Barbara story on p. 186 of randine Lewis. 

Bbbliss - very excited to hear about your upcoming transfer xx


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## kits

Hey


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## Briss

*kits*, look at your chart! congratulations!


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## kits

I keep trying to post, but nothing!!!! This is what happened this morning...

My internet cheapies weren't really showing much except had a bit of a smudge but it's not showing up photos. So I decided to try my clear blue digital I had from before that never showed positive before, not even during my chemical.. And bang there it is.

Not sure if to trust it. As soon as I get a chance I'm buying a few different brands & retesting.

Eeeeeek!!! If it's true, I really hope it sticks!
 



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## Briss

*kits*, I'd totally trust clearblue, cheapies are rubbish. you can always try FRER, I found them the best and the most sensitive but if clearblue gave you "pregnant" you must have a good beta level cos clearblue digital is not very sensitive. very promising!!


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## BBbliss

Kits!!! Very very good morning to you!!!! Congratulations! This is going to be a great weekend for you. A positive is a positive! X

Another positive on here yay!


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## gingmg

Kits huge congrats!!!!


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## Blythe

Kits - congratulations :happydance:


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## kits

Thank you so much ladies :hug:

Today was a busy & long day at work, have a huge launch on Sunday so I only just got a chance to retest. I have a couple of more extremely faint :bfp: not sure if to bother posting as the camera on my phone isn't the best so it's not really catching them.

Briss, I thought that too.. Clear blue isn't sensitive at all! I only had the internet cheapies because I knew I'd be going through a few! Is there any way to check my betas at home? I didn't realize those are the numbers to look for, but I know in my first mc my progesterone levels were a little bit low. They really struggled to date the pregnancy & when I had blood tests done over the space of 2 days the numbers hadn't doubled. They almost did but not exactly.

So happy though, i do have reservations because of my past but I'm going to do everything in my power to stay positive. Might even drink a bit of glue to make sure it sticks & stays put! :haha: I am sooo holding on to this one!

Any suggestions? Should I continue with the acupuncture even if my next session is in a few weeks?

Lots of love! :hugs:


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## Briss

kits, I am not sure where you are in the UK? I know a lab in london near Bond st called path lab where you can just turn up for a blood test without app or referral and they will email you the results in 2 hours. I did my progesterone there. you can get your beta the same day. Incidentally, they also provided advice on fertility clinics in Greece :)


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## Briss

Blythe said:


> Briss - just a quick one. See Barbara story on p. 186 of randine Lewis.

wonderful story! I always suspected I had spleen Qi deficiency but no one seems to care. I read on her website about spotting and she does say that it's a problem, there can be different reasons but the bottom line it's not good. 

My spotting is changing from beige to brown :(


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## Blythe

Briss

I was trying to find a website for that blood place. I want yo check his much they charge. I had no idea there was a place like that in London.


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## Briss

*Blythe*, they charge quite reasonable I paid 30 pounds for progesterone. 

Lab, bond st: https://www.thepathlab.co.uk/services.html 

you can download their price list from their website. I remember we talked about how wonderful it would be to have a place like that :) a couple of days ago a girl from UCH thread shares this info so I immediately jumped at it.

*afm*, BFN this morning :( I do not know what I was hoping for... I guess when my temp jumped off the chart when I started spotting it got me thinking and hoping... so stupid! it went as far as my DH and I were discussing if he wants to cut the cord... I am so tired of all of this, no matter what I do it's just getting worse


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## Blythe

:hugs: to you briss 

This is the problem with temping - each day brings a new blast of different emotions depending on whether its high or low. I know the hope that comes with a temp rise and all i can say is please hang on in there, keep doing what you are doing and it will happen for you.

thank you for the details of their site. i was wondering if they did DHEA but could not see when looking at the list. I will have another look now.


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## Briss

I am sure they do all tests, you can just call them on 02079356650 and ask. I found them very responsive and helpful. I wish I knew about this place before I'd monitor my FSH monthly since my failed IVF. 

I am sure I'll recover in a few days but at the moment I just do not have it in me to be hopeful. I am way beyond tired, there isn't even a word for it


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## Blythe

I know. It's bullshit


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## Briss

Cant believe this! am watching an episode of Mad Men where a doc tells a woman that there is a good reason why she has been spotting for a while and that's because she is going to have a baby :( that's when I am almost ready to start believing that there is smb up there watching us to make sure our life is miserable. it cant be a coincidence. this is f.... nonsense! why did my temp went up, I mean really high up, when I started spotting?? was something trying to happen or was it just nothing? I did not feel feverish or anything, no cold, nothing. I thought it would be the other way around - spotting means lower progesterone so temp goes down?


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## melly2

Kits: A huge congratulations! Those look like positive tests to me. Keep us posted! 

Bbliss: Almost there!

Briss: I used to spot occasionally, which meant, for me, that it was low progesterone. That is odd how your temp is high though. 

Hope everyone is doing well.


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## Jazzbird

Kits - congrats to you! Absolutely wonderful news. Up to you re acu but they can support the pregnancy. So hoping this luck touches all of the ladies on this thread.

Briss - I'm sorry you've had another disappointment - I know charting can be stressful - in fact I gave it up for that reason. However, this is your first month with dr E and I still think he's a good bet for a few more months. I don't know how to help you have faith because God knows you have been through the mill these last years but I am sending you all the faith in the world. 

Hang in there a few more months and lets hope for some fsh changes and other indications that things are moving in the right direction. What does dr E say? 

Keeping my fingers crossed for your transfer BBbliss.

Xxx


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## Briss

I have really bad PMS (liver qi stagnation) this cycle, have not had anything like that in a long while: really bad headache, so bad I did not get any sleep and feel awful today and the headache is still there; also feel hungry and sick at the same time, tried eating but feel like vomiting; my spotting increased and looks like light AF except its brown, just waiting for it to turn red before I can call it CD1. it may even happen today so I may get a super short 24 day cycle :( 

I do trust dr E and will start herbs on CD1 and will see him for acu on tuesday but at the moment it does not look like it's getting better.

temping can be stressful but it does give you a wealth of information so i do not mind doing it. I do not think i can explain spotting with progesterone judging by my temp and bloods, there must be a different reason for my spotting. egg quality?


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## Blythe

Briss - having been following your cycles now for quite some time, i must confess it is strange that you have had these two cycles with spotting. i know your cycle had almost gone back to normal post IVF so it can't be meds still playing around with your system. You may recall i had a few off months last year [or was it the year before!!] when spotting was huge concern for me but everything levelled out. Having said that i spotted for many days last cycle. Im not too fussed bout it as having obsessed over pregnancy charts for so long now i see that many others get pregnant with short cycles with spotting. So long as you ovulate if it is meant to be it will be.

Maybe it is just a couple of odd ones and nothing for you to concern yourself with. Have you introduced any new supplements [other than the herbs]?

My newest chinese doc said i would have a baby by next month&#8230;..happy days


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## Blythe

Briss. So sorry AF got you. Hope you are ok


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## kits

Sorry :af: got you too Briss, really hope it's over & done with pretty smoothly. It sounds like you've had some extreme symptoms :hugs: I think I give up on my temping.. New thermometer is totally whack, I know having the information is great but seeing rises & dips just confuse me to bits.

Blythe, I love that your new Chinese doc told you that. I think you're mature enough to appreciate everything you've been going through TTC but someone else's positivity can make such a difference.

Good luck, I'm still with you ladies!

Just had a bit of a hellish weekend. We had a big product launch on Sunday that didn't run so smoothly at my day job & our pub had our busiest day EVER which ran me absolutely ragged. So yesterday when relaxing I started to feel some pressure type pains I absolutely panicked. Just rested all day. My hpt lines aren't getting any stronger so they're still faint and that's got me panicked too as I think my levels aren't rising.

Didn't go to work today, finally going to see a doc this afternoon because the pain comes & goes. My family aren't helping. They think everything should be like the health care in the US & don't think midwives are good enough. I really regret telling them, they also think my faint positives mean I'm not pregnant. Never mind!

I know the pain is normal with implantation & uterus beginning to grow but it's my hpt's still being faint that's got me worked up the most. I want my bean to stay put! And I think low levels make that more difficult.

Feel like ringing my ACU for an emergency session. Staying in bed all day & hoping for the best!

:hug:


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## Briss

I am going mad thinking about my FSH and our chances for IVf, I cant sleep (but unfortunately I can still eat so swallowed 4 pasties and 3 bags of crisps last night&#8230;) I just cant let it go because if my FSH is high we wont get it, it's as simple as that, and my 6 months of waiting is just waste of time. I decided to do a private FSH/E2 tomorrow and see what the numbers are, luckily they promise to send the results in 2 hours so hopefully by the time I am done with acu I will know and if they are anything above 15 I will just skip one cycle and try again next month. DH does not seem to mind waiting one more month. I wont put it off for longer than one cycle if my FSH is still high next month then this is it and acu is not helping so we will have to think of other ways to get me pregnant. but if it's below 15 I can still try to repeat the bloods at UCH before the day is out. unfortunately it all makes me terribly stressed cos there is so much going on at work on top of this FSH nightmare. I just cannot go blindly for this blood test and then agonisingly wait for weeks for the result


----------



## BBbliss

I hope all of you pregnant girls had a beautiful first Mother's Day yesterday and it felt amazing to be responsible for creating a new life and knowing you will never be the some person you once were before this journey. :) 


Kits, I've read some people are very slow HCG risers and a positive is a positive, have you also tried to change brands? Maybe the ones you have are just a week batch? I hope you get some relief from your stress. Stay positive!

Blythe, I like your new ACU too. It's good to have that kind of support system, people who believe in you and believe in a successful outcome. 

Briss, good luck on your blood test tomorrow, I love the convenience of that clinic. I'm praying you have better results this time and you efforts have not been in vain. 

Afm, my FET is tomorrow afternoon and I have booked a massage and ACU for the morning so I can be as relaxed and blissful as possible for the transfer. Also planning on getting as much bed rest as possible for the rest of the week. Meditate and finish reading my Dream Birth book. 

Say a prayer for me girls, I believe in prayer :)


----------



## Jazzbird

Saying a prayer for you now BBbliss. So hoping this is it for you! Xxx

Saying a prayer for your results too Briss Xxx


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## melly2

Bbliss: thinking of you today!

Ugh...I think I'm miscarrying. I'm having some bleeding and cramping today. Not heavy bleeding, but some bleeding. I'm waiting to hear back from my nurse or doctor. Though some bleeding is normal, I'm not sure where this falls into. :-(


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## Briss

*melly*, I am keeping my fingers crossed for you. unfortunately IVF pregnancies tend to have bleeding very often. there are various theories (e.g. too much progesterone etc), most of which are not helpful but the bottom line it's probably going to be fine. still, better to get checked just to be on the safe side


----------



## melly2

Briss: Thanks for the info. It's not bleeding anymore, but I do have one helluva headache. I do think there is something going on with hormone fluctuating. I'm hoping to hear from the doctor soon.


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## kits

Melly, get as much bed rest as possible. I'm not sure what your lifestyle is like but be bed bound if possible. Give your body some rest, please!

Keep us updated. As Briss said it may be nothing, but praying for you the bleeding doesn't come back :)

Loads of :hugs:


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## kits

Best of luck tomorrow Bliss, I like your style of getting the massage before your transfer :D fingers crossed for you!

Thanks for the hcg reassurance, I just really don't want to loose another one. The doctor was useless, but said I have a uti which was a bit of a relief so I'm on celafaxin. She did 2 urine tests, both came out with definite negative.. But it was an afternoon urine. I showed her the photos of all my tests & she said the faint lines look negative to her with no comment on the digital that clearly states pregnant. She wasn't even sure how to work the hpt :grr: 

Luckily she gave me 3 more hpt to test at home. So I used one with pee I had from this morning that I saved for this particular reason & yep another faint positive.

Still too early for them to confirm the pregnancy & hopefully the pain will go away when the uti does. That's where I'm at & I think I'm ok with that :)

:hug:


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## BBbliss

Melly hang in there, remember you had a healthy embryo! 

My next door neighbor had bleeding every month for first trimester and didn't find out she was pregnant until she was 5months. So this could be nothing serious. FX!


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## Briss

*Bbbliss*, I am praying your FET goes well!!! Cant believe it's tomorrow. so quick. I like your plan with acu and massage and taking it easy for the rest of the week. sounds perfect! 

*kits*, I hope everything will be fine and you can relax and enjoy your pregnancy. I would not temp after BFP because it's just too stressful. it's unfortunate that you had to work so hard. relax as much as you can. I was hoping doc will reassure you but it's so useless. he should have checked your blood, not urine!! it takes ages for the pregnancy hormone to get into your urine, blood is the fastest way to know. My Dh was the same, when he saw a faint line he said it was not a proper line but I saw ladies with such faint lines that I honestly could not see anything at all and yet they had healthy pregnancies. praying things will develop into a healthy pregnancy! 

*Blythe*, it was my 3rd cycle spotting. it all started in NZ, not sure what prompted it. I did not take any supps while in NZ but have been on my usual list on my 2nd and 3rd months of spotting and none of it made any difference. I am thinking either egg quality/menopause or thyroid are responsible. although I do not have it very clear in my mind how these two are connected to spotting. I remember that you had spotting in the past but it resolved on its own I think. I do hope my cycle will get back to normal. I would not pay attention to your first post IVF meds cycle, your body is trying to recover after all the meds it had to go through. I think your cycle will improve this month. I am worried about my spotting cos I think it's a sign of something negative going on but cant figure out what. I am going to ask an endocrinologist if this might be to do with thyroid. tbh, I cant see acu/herbs are doing anything. spotting started before that and carries on regardless. let's see if the second month of herbs will do the trick. 

I cant wait to see what good things will come out of your intense acu/herbs programme. It must be doing something amazing. My previous Chinese doc told me that things would improve much faster if I could do acu daily! I would not mind seeing Dr E more often but for some reason he thinks once a week is only for the first month and then once every fortnight is sufficient. 

a colleague who gave birth a few months ago is scheduling a visit to the office to show her new-born. Joy! I know what you mean about being stuck, it's like Groundhog Day sort of thing, it's the same thing over and over months after months. 4 years of my life have been eaten and I cant remember anything but stay strong/add new supps/ovulation/BD/test/AF/cry repeat. I hate it when people ask what's new. I do not know what to say and I often feel like I might start crying unless I come with some joke really fast and change the subject. 

You WILL have a baby (BFP at least) by next month! that's final.

*afm*, AF is truly here but I really cant say which day is CD1 today or yesterday. hate the spotting! was trying to book my scan but until I know my FSH levels I really do not feel like committing myself to anything this cycle. My intuition is usually spot on, for some reason I ignore it a lot of the time but deep down I seem to always know the answer.


----------



## gingmg

Melly- Hang in there!

BBbliss- Great plan for transfer day! Praying for a healthy sticky bean for you! I am so excited for you!!


----------



## Blythe

Bbbliss - I hope it all goes smoothly today. Thinking of you :flower:


----------



## kits

Best of luck Bliss!!!


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## kits

I have spotting today but no pain. My faint frer has now become a negative but the extra test the doctor gave me yesterday is a faint positive. I give up! Whatever happens, happens!

I should've listened to you Briss & stopped testing!

Where on earth can I get progesterone on the NHS? I'm no expert but I keep thinking I need some.


----------



## Briss

*kits*, I am very sorry about spotting It's so upsetting. there can still be a happy ending it's possible that you ovulated later than you thought and it's just too early (NHS test sticks are the least sensitive, they only pick up beta of over 100 while FRER picks up even below 9 which is super early). also it's possible that your urine sample just does not quite work because of UTI. I really hope things will work out for you, hang in there. The NHS is not much help at all. you can ask for progesterone testing and prescription if yours is low but they can be difficult. I cant help you here cos I use my firm's GP, they usually give you whatever you ask and refer to whoever you want if you can justify it for the insurance. as I mentioned before I do my bloods privately cos it's impossible to get them done on the NHS, I mean it's possible but it will take weeks/months.


----------



## kits

That's so true Briss! If we had more money I'd be able to do much more privately but at this stage I don't think I can. It's so heartbreaking with the NHS.

I've tried to search for clinics like yours up here, I'm in Preston which is north of Manchester but the progesterone tests seem to cost at least £100 for one. How much do the bloods at your clinic cost? Wonder if its worth a trip down there but i always thought London area was much more expensive. So it's going to add up quite fast for me. It's great you get to have that easily available. May look more into finding other clinics.

I read a lady who bought progesterone cream online so I may look into that. I'll do plenty of research before jumping any guns though. Still considering asking for an emergency ACU session.

Luckily I'm still feeling nausea so I'm clinging on to that as hope. Last time I checked there were just traces of spotting, I really hope that stays away, none of it has been bright red. Just dull red/brown so just praying it's implantation as I don't have any pains. I felt a little bit of tightening type cramps a little while ago so just trying to stay positive & that it's my uterus making room.

Lots of :hug: ladies. Can't wait to hear how it went with melly!


----------



## kits

What?!! No way, just found the prices for your tests at path lab! If I can't find one like that up here I am sooo driving to London like tonight!


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## melly2

Kits: I do know you can buy progesterone cream online, because I have some. Spotting is "normal" as my doctor told me yesterday.

Bbliss: Good luck today, I'll be thinking of you.

AFM: Talked to my doctor, and they're not too concerned. I have very slight spotting when I wipe...like it's way up in my cervix. I have an ultrasound tomorrow, so I'm anxious to see how that turns out.


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## Briss

*kits*, 100 pounds for just progesterone is really expensive! it should be around 30. I've just spent 60 on FSH/Oestradiol, not cheap when you add it all up but there is no alternative. NHS will not do my bloods just because I feel I need to know the results on this particular day. It might be worth while calling my London lab and ask if they can recommend anyone in your area? I'd never known we have this lab if it was not for a fellow IVF sufferer on one of UCH boards. TTC community is so wonderful, informative and supportive! Sometime I feel very proud to be part of it (but mostly feel sad of course). progesterone cream might be the best way to start actually. it's not as hard core as suppositories but I am not sure if you need a prescription, probably not. definitely go for acu, my previous doc was very proud of saving babies as she called it. she treated pregnant women who had bleeding in their first trimester cos the NHS will not do anything to save the pregnancy before 12 weeks is out. 

*melly*, thinking of you and your little one. hopefully everything is going well, some minor spotting is common in pregnancies. best of luck with your scan tomorrow

*Bbliss*, cant wait to hear your news!! best of luck!

*afm*, I feel defeated, got my FSH results back and it's 16 &#8211; too high, there is no point doing the test at UCH today. My Oestradiol levels are strangely loo at 70. I've never had such low Oestradiol (it's usually around 200) so I am thinking that maybe if I repeat the test in a day Oestradiol will get higher and suppress FSH a little bit to get it to at least 12? I know it all looks like a lot of trouble and money waste but the alternative is just to forget about this cycle and try again next month but it might be the same story. Dr E was hoping my FSH would be around 12, no such luck. I suppose I should be happy it's not much higher than before considering two failed IVfs and stims. 

Had my acupuncture session today. I asked about spotting again and showed him my chart and progesterone results. He agreed that progesterone is fine and the chart looks what it should be. the difference between pre and post O temp is about 0.3 and it should be between 0.2-0.5 so all look normal. He completely disregarded my temp rise on 11 DPO and said it has nothing to do with my hormones or my cycle it must be caused by external factors like lack of sleep or minor infection. He thinks egg/follicle quality is not responsible for my spotting cos it would have affected my progesterone levels. It's possible that I have a polyp which aggravates in the second half of my cycle as progesterone increases and that's causing spotting. Generally he said it looks like the spotting might be caused by the excess rather than lack of something in my case. 

My tongue is still red so heat is still there. He needled the usual points. no heat lamp. I asked about electro-acu but he said he uses it for pain relief and ovulation induction only. I asked if I should have acu more often but he said it will not make a difference and wont speed up the result. 

I am so tired, It's so hard to manage my deals at work and fit into all this FSH/TTC mania, I've been running around town half day trying to get everything done and be ready to repeat the bloods at UCH if necessary and now I just feel exhausted, obviously disappointed cos it all came to nothing and yet there is so much to do at work. Should I just give up maybe? go for the bloods at UCH, face the music and move on privately? or should I carry on trying hoping for some miracle?


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## alison29

Melly: I had spotting around 5 .5 wks pregs and everything was fine. They said just some old blood coming out.

Briss: I am useless when it comes to all those levels, but i am thinking of you

AFM got AF to day. So had perfect timing so i know it' s not that this month. I know you all are probably eye rolling at this next thing BUT now i have given up gluten and I swear it my skin is no longer oily and no break outs (fingers crosse) I had no idea gluten allergy could cause acne. apparently especially if breakouts are around mouth and chin. Gluten is in everthing processed. Gluten can cause systemic inflammation just like sugar and everything else tasty. So been off of it for 9 days. 

Kits: I never get ANY lines not even a hint so this sounds like a good sign to me.


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## alison29

Has anyone else given up gluten? I know it's sort of trendy but it is really the only thing i have ever seen beside accutane and mega dose B5 that has gotten rid of my oily skin problem.


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## kits

I'm sorry Briss, I know how much you've been struggling with your FSH levels :( :hugs: I take it AF wouldn't affect your numbers at all? So you can't blame her for that?

I don't think I have any words of comfort for you as I have no actual knowledge of your situation or IVF, etc. but will listen to you anytime. 

I'm not sure if your acu has mentioned this, but mine kept drilling into me the importance about not getting worked & tensed up about this. She said that alone causes too much tension to the female reproductive area. So as worked up as I'm getting over my situation I am constantly finding myself taking deep breathes and counting to ten (or a 100) to calm myself down. I told myself after my mc that if I were to have the chance to be pregnant again I wold do all I could to stay positive no matter what the outcome may be, at least I know I'm giving it a chance.

I know you're reaching the end of your tether hun and by no means do I think you should stop TTC but maybe take a more relaxed approach (fully expect to have my head bitten off at this point!). I know it's difficult because time isn't on our side (damn bio clock :finger: ) but maybe we should all just go on holiday or get massages or whatever we need to find inner peace.

Have a cocktail or glass of wine!

Take care ok. :hugs:


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## kits

Sorry AF got you :finger: Time to start a fresh new cycle, good luck with the sympotoms!

^5 on the gluen free Alison. I was about 95% gluten free but recently it's been more like 90%. I bought my OH a 2 packets of croissants (2 in each) that hasn't really eaten so i've sneaked a bite a day. :blush:

I love learning & talking about food nutrition. Although I have to also admit since finding out that I could be pregnant I have gone off my NutriBullet which was helping me get my fruit & veggies. I just can't seem to want them at all. I have been nauseaus for a few days so the idea of a veg & fruit smoothie really puts me off. In fact I've not been eating too well come to think of it. Have cereal & some form of meat for tea but not much. I feel a bit hungry but I've lost my apetitie big time.

Aside from that, I don't care what they say about calories in fruits, I'm having them! There's too much goodness in them.

I stay away from cakes, muffins, everything chocolate, hell no to donuts & anything like that so I think I'm entitled to fruits!

I also only eat organic or from a very reputable butcher.

One thing I've even substitued is rice. I blend cauliflower tell it becomes tiny littles bits, cook it for less than a minute with a bit of water & just use that as rice. I love it :D

Ok I'll shut up about this now.

Pretty obvious I didn't go to work today, huh? :blush:


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## Blythe

Alison - Hi :flower:

i have eaten 3 x dunkin donuts today, and not the healthy ones with a hole in the middle but the ones with choc/cream/jam oooozzzzzzing out of them. I might look at adopting gluten free eating as I'm sure can only mean good things for TTC..

Briss - if UCH have a strict policy on the FSH then is it an option to put it off a month? The treatment you are having is focused on getting that down so maybe give it more time. I know how hard it is putting these things off but it will put you in a much stronger position going forward [well if this TCM stuff works that is - I'm certainly counting on it!].

I'm sorry you are having such a pig of a day.


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## kits

Yea I know spotting can be normal, I just panicked when I did a FRER test at the same time & it came out completely negative. The NHS one gave me hope though. And so does my nausea!

Melly, sorry how far along are you? How exciting, is this your first US? Get a photo! I got a photo of mine when they found the heartbeat. Was the most amazing thing ever I was so joyous even though I think I still had the T/V shoved in me :haha:

As for the progesterone cream, all I'm finding is stuff for tackling menopause - is that the same for what I'm after?

Any suggestions as to brand or website?

I spoke to the OH, I needed to let me know if I'm going a bit overboard. He said no (correct answer!! :lol: ) but we did agree to be a bit patient. So I'm going to let these next days progress as peacefully as I can. I will lay off POAS (I knew he should have hidden all of them from me) and then go any of these walk-in clinics to & get some bloods.

With a cosultation, HCG & progesterone it'll cost me £150 which is reasonable. It'd cost me that much to get to London & get them done there :haha:

Depending on what happens after that I might book an earlier appoint with ACU.


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## Briss

*alison*, I am still fighting sugars&#8230; it was going well but then I allowed myself a bit of the tasty stuff and it all went downhill from there. I decided to do it mildly by not eating sugars during the week but allow myself a treat on weekend. 

I do not know where I fit on the gluten sensitivity spectrum but I do not want to go completely gluten free, I love my rye bread and some other grains like I recently discovered "millet porridge" with fruit/raisins can really help with chocolate cravings (I know it's probably all sugars anyway but hopefully a healthy alternative to chocolate and supposed to be packed with vitamins, it also might be gluten free actually). have you been tested for celiac disease? I think if you have it it will make a huge difference if you stay away from gluten

*kits*, thanks! I do not think I can stop TTC, not until I have children or &#8230; cant even think about any other alternative. anyway, I had lots of massages/reflexology last year cos I was hoping it would relax me and I've recently been on a longish holiday to NZ but nothing helps. I am actually responding better to negative stimulus like under active thyroid, whenever I feel like stressing out or crying I immediately think about how it may affect my thyroid and somehow get calmer cos obviously I do not want to make thing worse but overall I am in a very deep hole. it's so strange to be feeling like that cos actually my life is very comfortable and yet there is this background deep sadness which overtakes my whole being. btw, loved your cauliflower blend recipe!


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## kits

Good luck on gluten free Blythe, I think it can be difficult for some people & they end up binging. We have a nutritionist that visits us at work on Fridays & when I mentioned how much of it I ate she said I need to read Wheat Belly. The idea of reading an entire book on why I shouldn't eat wheat put me off so much that I gave it up 100% instantly.

Then after a month I went back to about 95% and as mentioned before I've been 90% GF these past days. I'm really happy with the food I eat now. My IBS is at an all time low.

But I've had a lot of IBS issues, Hpyroli, and various allergens (can't handle certain sugars too well, no chocolate & caffeine is no good for me so I have no coffee either) so I found it a little easier.

If you do consider it, you'll be better off weaning off it. Cutting it off completely like I did resulted in unplesant side effects. I had a lot of nausea because I was having way too much acid in my tummy for about a month. And the nausea was constant so it helped me become a recluse and a bit depressed. Although my chemical aided in that too.

Good luck!!


I'm sorry for posting so much today ladies. I really will shut up now.
And I promise I will go to work tomorrow.


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## Irish_eyes

Hello everyone, hope you don't mind me joining in. I may have at one point posted in this thread before. I have been hmming and haaaing about TCM for a long time and the real issue was the cost. But I went ahead and booked my first appt which is not until the 24th due to my other commitments. I was told it will be 10 mins free consultation and the acu and then he will give me the best course for my situation. I am a little worried in case he says that its best I go twice a week as that would just be too much in money terms for me. I was just wanting to know how many times you all go.


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## Irish_eyes

I have also been trying to wean out gluten but I do find it really hard. For a start the bread is so expensive (but tasty) so was going to look into making my own.


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## Briss

*Irish_eyes*, welcome! This is my second year with TCM on and off and I have changed 3-4 practitioners, some suggested to go for weekly acu, others started me off with weekly sessions and then moved to one every fortnight. Hard to say what your practitioner thinks the best approach in your circumstances. Generally, herbs are considered very important and they also add greatly to your costs. My current doc is very "cost efficient" I only pay 110 a month for acu and 20 for herbs (I only take herbs before O).


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## alison29

Blythe I love those kinds with raspberry jelly or chocolate or vanilla cream on the inside :) I had a gluten free muffin this weekend at a recital it was coated with confectioners sugar it was so good (i had huge sugar crash and crabbiness that afternoon though). Sunday of course had to have flour free chocolate torte. I almost completely blew it and went for wine at the restaurant on Sunday (but didn't) Back on the wagon again. I guess i am doing like bRiss cheating on the weekends.

HI Irish eyes: Yes the bread is expensive at 5.5o for a tiny loaf. I am trying to eat less of the bread replacement products but sometimes you just need some toast it is good to have in the house. I think i will try to make breakfast casserole muffins for breakfast next week. Breakfast is hard because i don't like plain eggs.

They tested me for celiacs a few years ago when i had endoscopy and they said it was negative. I think you can be non celiac gluten intolerant. We'll see how this clear skin theory holds up for me.


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## alison29

That is super cheap for your acu briss. I live in hick vill usa so to go anywhere good is 90$ a session.


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## Blythe

Kits - i have tried most progesterone creams and gave up in the end. They made practically no difference. However, the best on the market in the UK [IMO] is:

https://www.wellsprings-health.com/...g_brnd_buyWS&gclid=CPHTlfmyqb4CFennwgod9FAA-Q

however, if your bloods show low prog get the doc to prescribe it - I'm not too sure about cream to really make that much of a difference.

i have everything crossed that your blood results provides you with some reassurancethinking of you:flower:

Your diet sounds very good. Having had weight issues in the past i really know what i need to do/eat but i get really lazy and unmotivated. This sucks because i think diet can be a crucial component along with other stuff to help with fertility, in some cases at least. Yet, wanting to become pregnant more than anything in the world does not stop me having sugary tea in the morning and eating crap snacksstupid me! I think i have to try my best to at least follow a 80/20 diet and allow the crap as long as there is more good stuff in there.

Irish-eyes - welcome :flower:

TCM should be a nice addition to your life and hopefully enhance it. If you are stressing about making time for appts, paying for them etc then it becomes counterproductive. you don't need to go crazy and once a week would be a good place to start.please report back on your first appt as i am always so interested to hear of others experiences.

i am going twice a week at the moment but usually i go once a week. i enjoy the sessions but find it difficult to articulate what it has done for me long term. I am hoping its done some great things inside. Having said all this my hair has been looking good recentlymaybe it is the acu/herbs.


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## kits

Urgh... no good ladies. My cramping is getting worse & the spotting is now what I'd call AF, possibly light AF. The cramps are defintely AF cramps and the tight type with pregnancy.

I'm 99% I'm back to square one. I should've drunk some of that glue! Honestly, my beans just aren't sticking!! 

I'm actually taking this in quite well, pissed off I didn't go to spinning though. And that just when I thought we may be getting somewhere with wedding date because I'd have an idea of baby date. If I'm not pregnant then I want to work on loosing weight. I will definitely book an apointment next week with accu. 

:finger: heh

Might give up on temping. I was very bad at it & the thermometers broke. Not sure yet.

Lots of :hug:


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## kits

Sorry Irish, :hi:

I've been going once a week, for 4 weeks. I'll give you more info later!


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## BBbliss

Just got home from transfers :) still feel really high from Valium LOL

It all went well and they defrosted beautifully and look great so it all went without a glitch. 

Doctor said " babies are going home now" :)

So yes, babies are home safe :) nice and cozy


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## Blythe

Kits. What a worrying time for you.....I don't know what to say other than I hope that things turn out well and I am thinking of you :flower:


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## Blythe

Bbbliss. So glad to hear that it went so well......I always love to read your positive posts and look forward to reading about your bfp very soon. 

:flower:


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## Breaking Dawn

Bliss...I'm so excited for you. stick babies stick :)

Ladies.. sorry for being MIA. Things have been so busy but I'm been following along!


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## gingmg

Bbliss- I am so happy for you! You went with two hugh?! Good for you. Stick babies stick!!!


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## gingmg

Kits- sending hugs. I hope everything turns out OK. I am so sorry you are going through this.


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## gingmg

:wave: to everyone.


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## kits

Thanks ladies, I kind of knew. You tend to think they're never going to stick now. I feel bad for the oh, too.

Never mind :(

So glad it went so well for you Bliss!! Can't wait to see your progress! Fingers crossed & loads of :dust:


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## melly2

Kits: So sorry. :-(

Bbliss: Great news on the transfer. Stick babies!


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## Blythe

Kits - just seen your chart :hugs:


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## kits

Yea, not good. I think it's my own fault in a way, I KNEW that I shouldn't have tested so early. I just had to wait until Monday & I would've been none the wiser.

Cramping sooooo bad & heavily today. The heavy is normal-ish but the cramping is a bit bad. However, I am wondering how many chemicals I've actually had. This bit is getting too familiar.

Was up until about 4 am last night reading the posts on mc facts & myths and I have to admit I feel a lot better emotionally. So yea, I think I'm ok with things.

Thanks everyone, group hug!

Gonna try again this cycle tho :D and I don't think I'm going to make a nuisance of myself at the doctors until they prescribe me whatever, just gonna continue with accu & trying to be healthy!

After a year of this I will go psycho! :haha:


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## Briss

Kits, I am very sorry, it looks like it was a chemical. so sorry

Bbliss, congratulations on being PUPO!! 

Melly, how are you today?


----------



## kits

Yea, waiting for updates from the other ladies!

Fingers crossed for loads of sticky, sticky :dust:


----------



## Briss

a colleague came in with a baby &#8230; and another one immediately announced her pregnancy&#8230; needless to say I am not dealing with this very well


----------



## Blythe

Briss. :hugs: we are always here for you. Your time will come


----------



## Briss

I had to flee to the toilet to have a little cry but she followed with the baby to feed him so I was forced to have a conversation. it's so awful that such happy moments bring so much pain. The baby is wonderful so cute but I can barely look at him, my heart bleeds (together with my uterus). I am doing exactly the same thing I did this time last year and the year before that and the year before... :( I need to leave the office I cant control my tears anymore


----------



## gingmg

Briss :hugs:


----------



## BBbliss

Kits, I'm so sorry you had to experience that, I had something similar last year... It sucks. Well AF is here and a new cycle starts with a new promise, try not to look back and stay hopeful for what's to come. 

Briss, I'm sorry that made you feel so sad


----------



## Breaking Dawn

Briss...I'm so sorry :hugs:

Kits...i also had a chemical and took me a while to feel better after. physically I had the worst cramps.


----------



## Irish_eyes

Thank you all for the welcome. I did my free round of IVF two years ago and unfortunately it failed. We are unexplained and we are not in the position to pay for another round so I am definitely hoping for a miracle. 

Kits - so sorry to hear AF arrived. :hugs:

Briss - one of my colleagues just recently announced her pregnant. She knows about my situation and was sensitive about telling me which in away helps. But she is older than and of course she got pregnant quite quickly after just starting. It's hard especially when people don't know your situation.


----------



## melly2

My ultrasound yielded great results. Healthy little bean with a solid heartbeat. Such a relief! I have not had anymore spotting, so that's good.

Hope everyone is doing well today.


----------



## BBbliss

Yay melly, great news!


----------



## Breaking Dawn

Melly...great news. :hugs:


----------



## BBbliss

Ging, yes I went with two, funny thing is they didn't even ask me, LOL but I always knew I wanted to go with both as I believe will give me better chances. My Dr did say as we were just about to do the transfer embryos look great and if I were younger he'd only be transferring one. 

I could have twins! Imagine that! But of course I just want this to work :)


----------



## Breaking Dawn

Bliss..this is so exciting. will you be testing before bloodwork?!


----------



## gingmg

BBliss- I am so excited for you. Praying for a sticky bean (or two):)


----------



## kits

Oh my goodness, 2!!! That's so awesome. Praying for you Bliss!!

I'm so happy you got a heartbeat melly, such a wonderful sign!

Awww that's good news ladies :D


On another note, I'm just throwing this out there & won't get the least bit offended if everyone says no but I was wondering if anyone fancied meeting up? There's a good few of us in the UK.

I don't know, just a thought. I'm constantly coming up with random ideas. I'm in advertising after all.

We're going to have a very whacky wedding because of all my ideas.


----------



## kits

Briss! You poor thing, I only just read your posts from yesterday. I was too stuck in my world, sorry hun.

We do so much research & preparation ... And nothing. Sometime it feels like all others have to do is sneeze & they're pregnant. 

I'm so sorry :hugs:

Sorry I was so selfish yesterday as well :(


----------



## BBbliss

Thanks girls, I'm really excited too! I just feel soooo tired today I took a 2hr nap and I never ever do that and I hope it's implantation :) I can't wait to test, I think I'll test Saturday that will be 4dpt and since they were hatching at transfer maybe I can get something :)


Kits, I think that's a great idea, I've always wondered why nobody tried to meet before. I'd just love to have the opportunity to chat in person with someone who is going though the same thing. I don't ever talk about it with my friends and I wish I could. There's no way for me as I'm in south Florida and I know non of you are even remotely near me, but you ladies in the UK already have a bond! Btw, I'm in advertising too, I work in TV/print advertising on shoots.


----------



## kits

Yea, it's the whole talk to someone in person bit. Unless you go through it you just don't understand.

My sister think she was having problems conceiving because she didn't get pregnant on her first or second try (apparently she did on her third). Ummm no, i think it's because she's in a loveless marriage. Honestly, she tries to console me in the worst way possible.

When I told my mom & sisters about the chemical, this is exactly what she what's app'd me:

For your next cycle, you should get an ovulation kit plus wait until you miss your period for at least 2 weeks. Set a reminder on your cell and don't even think about it. I would even take a pottery, dancing or any other classes that you won't be able to take when the baby comes during those 2 weeks. You may not feel it, but every time you test or think about it, your body is stressed.

Really?! A pottery class is what's going to keep me from testing too early? And I'm just going to forget the tww until my phone reminds me? Top advice, honestly. Why didn't I think about pottery class?!!

Then my mom buts in & lectures me on stress. They're the one who stress me out!

But yea my point is, finding people to actually talk to isn't v easy my poor fella has to hear most of my side & he's so adoring, listens to every word I say (even if some of it goes in one ear & out the other) but sometimes I think it's not fair on him. 

We'll get there ladies.. Eventually!

I wonder when Blythe is going to test, I hope she has a stronger will power than me.

I love how we get to watch each others progress.

Loads of hugs, have a great day ladies!


----------



## Briss

cant decide what to do FSH went down to 13, not ideal but it's a chance. E2 is 250 which is a little high but acceptable I think. shall I go now or skip this cycle? I mean there is no guarantee what's going to happen next cycle FSH may go down but it may also go up. 13 is not brilliant and they may still refuse but it's the best I have seen in a year so who knows it might be as low as it goes with me.


----------



## Jazzbird

Briss - I am hoping your fsh levels will keep on the downwards trend with a few more months of Dr E herbs. If anyone can reduce them, he can! I have a lot of faith in him. What does he advise you to do with ivf timeframes?

BBbliss - praying for you. Hope you are managing to relax.

Kits - your family advice must be very annoying. Loads of people told me to try ov kits. Like id be stupid to try for a whole year age 36 without considering them!


----------



## BBbliss

Kits, that kind of advice is precisely why I don't talk to my friends about it and besides statistically my chances are something like 4% so I keep it to myself mostly. 

Briss, this is great progress, maybe Jazz is right and it can get even lower, waiting one cycle won't hurt, maybe it's still going down. 

Afm, I'm staying calm just letting time pass, I don't feel any cramps but I woke up in the middle of the night with a wave of nausea, could be the progesterone but I'm hoping its the beginning of something more :) I read somewhere its possible to feel morning sickness as soon as day after implantation. Who knows :)


----------



## alison29

Yay briss it's working, it maybe the dietary changes too!
speaking of sneezing to get preg we were at a restaurant last nigth and saw a woman who was 7 months gone with her 7 month old daughter smoking a cigarette. Really? There is no rhyme or reason to any of it


----------



## Breaking Dawn

Briss...that is great progress!!!

Bliss...I'm probably the closest to you....i live in toronto.. lol.


----------



## Jazzbird

BBbliss - I suspected I was pregnant in 2ww because I felt sick when someone opened the lid on their coffee on the train. Really hoping this is it for you!


----------



## melly2

Bbliss: I know this tww is agonizing. Each person's body is so different. I really didn't have much symptoms until a week later I felt nauseous. I also could feel the implantation cramping as well. Hang in there!

Kits: I know how other's advice can be annoying. I have kept this a super secret from everyone in my family with the exception of my best friend who went through her own fertility problems. I love my mom and sis, but they are so damn annoying that I don't even plan to tell them I'm pregnant until August, which by then, I'll be about five months along! ;-) I just want to leave them out-of-the-loop. It also helps that they both live over 1,000 miles away from me. 

Briss: It sounds like you're making progress on your levels!


----------



## Blythe

Briss - i am wondering if you should go for it given such a big change within hours! Its all so variable and all changes from one month to the next - there is no ideal time.

i hope i am in a better place to do an IVF round with these extra weeks of TCM treatmenthaving said that my DH has not moved for 3 weeks and is on very strong pain medication. so whilst i may be fitter his sperm may well be compromised. Sometimes we just have to say "f**k it" and jump in whilst closing eyes and not giving it too much thought.

Kits - well meaning advice from loved ones and friends used to really upset me.i just nod and grin now.and say "really" when they suggest i should relax because they knew of a couple that had been trying for ages [probably about 4 months] and they stopped trying and pooooofthey are pregnant.I f**king hate that couple!! I have to remember that for the majority of people TTC is fun and a short process hence advice like that, although not especially sensitive in light of your chemical. I had one around the one year mark and felt pretty devastated. 

BBBliss - already some promising signs - hope they continue and you get an early BFP. keeping everything crossed for you and keeping you in my prayers :flower:


----------



## kits

Briss! That's good news, ooooh so what are you going to do? That's a tough one. Do you think you could hold off another cycle? If your levels have progressed as a direct result of your treatments, then logically I'm guessing that if you continue your treatment that you should continue to progress? So then they should just keep getting better even if just in baby steps.

Sorry, when I can't decide I have to look at things scientifically. Which doesn't always work because I just end up saying oh what the heck, I'm going for it! Yolo & all that. But this is much more sensitive. What does hubby say?

Bliss with the 2 aren't your chances doubled or is your chance 4% without the transfer?

Blythe is your hubby taking any conception supplements? Or at least eating his veggies? I'm guessing that as long as his swimmers are sorta fresh then they should still be ok? At least that's what I've heard. I've asked my gp about whether I should make my oh eat more veggies & he just laughed.

With ivf don't they pick the best swimmers anyhow?

Ahhh! Tea time, be back later!!!


----------



## BBbliss

Kits, thats why we put both in. I was actually being generous with myself, lol I think the statistics for a 43 year old is 4% and a 45y is 1% for IVF success so I picked 43 since I'm in the middle, lol but statistics also say I should have DOR at this point and miraculously I don't. On my first u/s I had 23 follicles and the tech said she wouldn't be able to tell the difference between my ovaries or that so a 30y but I had an RE tell me they were all bad eggs, I refused to listen and went with my instincts and found a dr. That believes I should try, he was so pleased with our cycle he said we can do it again if it doesn't work this time. Lets hope I don't have to go back :) 

I've had mild cramps today and just felling tired, I have been sleeping a lot :)

Breaking, LOL I think only ging and melly are in the US but both very far from me.


----------



## Jazzbird

Just subscribing again - darn iPhone is too small and my big fat fingers keep accidentally unsubscribing me!


----------



## kits

Biological clocks suck! I had no idea the statistics were that low.

Praying for you Bliss. Your doctor sounds pretty awesome. Just an ounce of positivity can make all the difference.

I have a christening to go to this weekend & they're good friends of ours so I bought a Vera Wang music box as a gift. It just arrived today & it's sooo lovely. I want to keep it!! 

Just dreaming away of our turns ladies.... 

Can't wait for acupuncture next week!


----------



## melly2

I'm about 99% sure I'm miscarrying now. I had blood since 2PM today, no clumps, but bright red blood. My doctor is doing an ultrasound on me first thing tomorrow morning, but I'm quite convinced at this point that this is a miscarriage. Ugh!


----------



## BBbliss

Oh melly, I really hope all is well with the baby, please try to get a restful night before your u/s tomorrow. I know it's so so hard but try to stay calm and have trust that everything will be resolved and you can have some peace of mind tomorrow. I'm praying it will all be alright. :hugs:

You are super healthy and you already produced 6 beautifully heathy embryos. Have faith <3


----------



## kits

Awww... Melly :hugs:

Don't despair melly just yet, everything could still be ok. I have read about lots of women who bleed. 

Praying for you hun, and like Bliss said try to stay calm & positive. You're going to get answers soon.

Hang in there & keep your chin up, loads of :hug: keep us posted.


----------



## kits

Melly are you in any pain?


----------



## Briss

*melly*, I am still hoping your baby is doing well. bleedings happen and often they have nothing to do with the baby. In the last few years I have read so many stories when bleedings turned out OK. It's scary and such worrying time. I am praying everything works out well for you. 

ladies, thank you very much for your advice! I was panicking and felt like I could not make a decision, LTTTC does this to you. In the end I talked to DH and thought about it and decided to take the risk. I did all my bloods yesterday at the fertility clinic and hoping my Oestradiol went up little bit and moved FSH down to 12 so I could meet their criteria. the problem with FSH is that it fluctuates between cycles but also within the cycle as it works together with Oestradiol, as Oestradiol goes up during the first half of your cycle, it suppresses FSH so you can get a lower reading if you take the test later but the accurate results for me is on CD 2 cos I O early. In fact my FSH is still high I was just trying to play around trying to go for bloods when my FSH reading was as lower as possible within that cycle. It's hard to say if acu/herbs are working or not. I will repeat my bloods next cycle just in case but it may as well be higher, you just never know. However, they also did my AMH which I cant really cheat (well, I did take tonnes of vitamin D which can artificially increase AMH but that's about it). I am also going for AFC and they will make the decision based on all of these tests. It's done now so I can only hope they will decide to offer us IVF.

This week is just so hard, I am really struggling at work cos I am so busy but yet I prioritise my TTC stuff (obviously!) and fail everywhere else, have to work late every day and will have to work this weekend to compensate. I am exhausted!


----------



## Breaking Dawn

Melly...Hopin the baby is ok. have you had any pain. It could just be bleeding as some women have this. Sending you positive vibes! :hugs:

Briss.. it is difficult to manage ttc and work. I know where you coming from. :hugs:


----------



## melly2

AFM: The good news, the embryo is still there with a good heartbeat. The bad news, it's subchorionic hematoma; a big pool of blood forming above the sac. The only thing to do is let is resolve itself; however, it does threaten the pregnancy, so unfortunately it will be a wait and see for awhile. Ugh! As if this isn't agonizing enough...


----------



## melly2

...ugh, and my in-laws are in town this weekend. The timing couldn't possibly be any worse!


----------



## Briss

*kits*, pottery class!  made me laugh. I can totally relate to people trying to console you in the worst possible way without even realising it, people who did not face this TTC nightmare just cant understand what we are going through. I gave up trying to explain this to my close friends, waste of time and energy. I am more comfortable around people who do not know that we are TTC

*Jazzbird*, I am also hoping that Dr E's treatment is working. even if they refuse us funded IVF cycle we can try and do one privately and for that we still need lower FSH. I am glad I found this lab so I can monitor my FSH progress. 

*BBbliss*, I am so hoping your nausea is a good sign! 

*Breaking Dawn*, how are you feeling? 

*alison*, thanks. I am hoping next cycle my FSH will be lower. Do not get me started on some pregnant women's lifestyle choices makes me furious! 

*melly*, how did your scan go? thinking about you and your little one. 

*Blythe*, thanks! you are thinking just like me. I went for it in the end precisely because it just seems like a lottery (in my case) getting the right FSH levels. One cycle it's almost menopause, the other just higher than normal and I just thought what if for some bizarre reason next month it will get really high? I will have to skip one more month?

I am really sorry your DH is still poorly. his medication may affect his sperm but his count was good previously and he did get you pregnant before so I'd think it should be OK. 

your chart looks great! clearly acu/herbs are working their little miracle. also your af got longer which might be a sign that your lining is getting even better

*afm*, had my AFC: L6/R3, not brilliant but OK. they want over 5 follicles on each ovary but I knew my right ovary does not produce many cos of the cyst and actually 3 is the highest I've seen. interestingly there was no polyp seen so looks like my spotting is still unexplained. I am just keeping my fingers crossed waiting for the clinic to review my results and make a decision. may take weeks


----------



## BBbliss

Melly not all is lost, I do understand the worry and agony. I'm praying all turns out well for you and baby. 

Briss, I think you age the right decision, I would have done the same. They will take you! Your numbers aren't terrible and you are young, everything counts. Good luck to you <3 

Afm, talk about agony, we went to a cocktail party last night and I had too much to eat and was up half the night with indigestion/nausea and I still don't feel right. I'm 3dp5/6dt and I'm just now getting really nervous, I was doing pretty well till yesterday, I wish I had a real sign of something to ease my worries right now.


----------



## Briss

*melly*, how did I miss your post! glad to hear your embryo is doing OK. I have seen a lady over here with hematoma and it was very worrying but tuned out fine. I am hoping it will resolve on its own soon. Did they explain how and why these hematomas form? 

*BBbliss*, the wait is so hard but I'd still wait until 5-7 days post ET cos false negatives are just depressing. I am keeping my fingers crossed for you but I am sure your embies are doing great!


----------



## kits

Melly!!!! That's great news about your baby, it's trying to stay put! But I'm really sorry about your hematoma. 

Really hope all turns out ok. Keep us updated, been praying for you hun.

:hug: everyone!


----------



## alison29

MElly congrats on the heartbeat that is BIG! I am sure the hematoma will work itself out too. 

Kits feeling like crap is really a great sign..i am so happy for everyones' progess lately it gives me hope :)


----------



## Briss

cant believe this! yet another colleague announced his wife is about to give birth to their 4th child!! I am officially the only childless associate in our department&#8230; was forced to make small talk about bringing children to work&#8230; what seems normal for most people is absolute pain for me.


----------



## BBbliss

Briss, that only means you are NEXT! There's no other possibility!


----------



## gingmg

Bbliss- when are you going to test?


----------



## gingmg

Melly- so relieved for you!

Briss- I hope you get good news and can start another cycle soon. How long does it take to find out?


----------



## Breaking Dawn

Melly...I'm so happy to hear about the heartbeat. that is such great news  try to rest and not stress and that hematoma will resolve itself. 

Briss...I'm doing well hun. managing all these crazy symptoms. 

FX for your cycle.

Bliss.. fx...i tested at 11dpo...6dp5dt...


----------



## BBbliss

I'm going to try to wait at least another couple of days 6dp5/6dt will be Monday. Lets see if I can make it. 

I'm so anxious, I'm sure you know exactly how I feel :/


----------



## Blythe

BBBliss - not long now&#8230;.hope this weekend is a good one and that you have the best possible news on monday :flower:

Melly - what a worrying time for you. Thinking of you and hoping it all goes well for you :flower:

Briss - its difficult to think straight and keep emotions in check when working such long hours. I know you have been working late and i just hope you are able to leave work worries behind this weekend and have some time for yourself. I work regular hours although have also been doing long days this week and the tiredness just pushes me over the edge&#8230;not that i am ever that far away from it these days. I finished my book this week [far pavilions] and have been totally swept away with it&#8230;it is so epic and such a wonderful distraction from my usual reading matter!

i like my chart but i have been poorly [chesty cough] for a couple of weeks now so that has increased temps. I also took temp at 4 am this morning and it was significantly lower than what it was when i took it again at 6 am. Clearly i chose the highest to stick on my chart for the psychological boost! I also had to change one of my temps so that it showed ovulation on CD13 and not CD11. i did not have any LH sticks in the house so suspect it was the latter which would be in line with other months.

I'm glad you went for it&#8230;..i should be going for it myself the week after next. you have done the bloods and ticked that box, you are moving forward and ever closer to your pregnancy. 

I forgot to mention - earlier this week i had acu with my new lady. I was super sensitive to the needles this week. She was fiddling with the Ki 9 one [down side on inner lower leg] and my hand involuntarily jumped off the bed&#8230;it was like a real shock. I rarely have any reaction to the needles and so i was quite pleased. She put the needle in my chest again between my boobs and i really shouted at her&#8230;.both she a i were quite shocked but it really really hurt. My sessions with her are 300 for 6 so £50 each thats 30 acu and 15 massage&#8230;it is so much more than i pay with the other one but i really look forward to it so i am considering blowing the finances and booking another set [if the IVF fails]. I don't think i will see her during the IVF though as the massage and needling is too much and i would be worried about her bursting my eggs [or something like that]. Our conversations and a bit stop/start and I'm not sure if she understands me when i start talking about upcoming IVF.

During the massage she really feels around my uterus and ovaries with her fingers&#8230;.she says things are getting better and that i will get pregnant&#8230;..


----------



## Blythe

today i brought some:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Braggs-Organic-Apple-Cider-Vinegar/dp/B001I7MVG0/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top

its actually very palatable. I was just reading the reviews on amazon and a lady said it helped get rid of her ovarian cysts.

also brought:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Teapigs-Li...=UTF8&qid=1400336872&sr=1-3&keywords=tea+pigs

its delicious :)

i also brought.have not used it yet but Gwyneth raved about it!! All part of my efforts to avoid chemicals etc etc

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Dr-Bronner...d_sim_d_1?ie=UTF8&refRID=1PD7RNXBSWK4YQ1BRCK5

i think that is it for now!


----------



## Briss

unfortunately I am working this weekend.

Blythe, totally love you chart!! acu is working :)


----------



## kits

Hiya ladies, I hope you all had a good weekend (even though you had to work Briss).

Have a good day everyone!

:hug:


----------



## Briss

*BBbliss*, You are such an optimist! have you tested yet? I am hoping and praying! 

*gingmg*, I do not know now long I am to wait for their decision. suspense is hard but trying to stay hopeful that they will give us a chance. 

*Blythe*, pregnancies among associates in our office are so rare that somehow it's particularly hurtful. also staying away from facebook as people seem to think they must provide daily updates on their babies&#8230; It's really great to be able to read something not TTC related. I watched 6 seasons of Mad Men and absolutely loved it, takes my mind off TTC and work 

re chart, at 4 am your temp is obviously going to be low so I'd adjust. I find it hard to deal with temp when I wake up much earlier or later than my set charting time (which is 7.30-8 am), sometimes I just skip it all together cos it's just going to confuse my chart. I also sometimes play with my temp so I could get my O date right. You most likely ovulated on CD 13 so FF was clearly wrong.

I hate it when needles hurt but then when I do not even feel them I start doubting they do anything at all. I just hope either way it's working. I think even if my FSh wont go down I'd still stay with Dr E. I find his sessions informative and relaxing and I am sure it all helps. you can consider going to Dr E for ET acu sessions but I think you need to come before that to arrange it all. I am so glad your doc says positive things that you WILL get pregnant, that's so uplifting!


----------



## BBbliss

Girls!

I tested and got a faint line!

Oh my God! I'm so happy! 

Thank you thank you thank you for praying with me. I feel like this was the hardest part, now I can move on to the next stage of waiting... And keep praying :)


----------



## melly2

Bbliss: Congratulations! That's great news!!!


----------



## Blythe

BBbliss - congratulations on your wonderful news :happydance::happydance:


----------



## Briss

*BBbliss*, most wonderful news! so happy for you!! 

*afm*, I had a chat with an endocrinologist about my raised TSH but he did not see anything wrong with me. He said it's possible that it's a very beginning of underactive thyroid but too early to say for sure because TSh can go down and my T3 and T4 have robust levels (he would be concerned if they were on lower side of normal) and negative antibodies is also a good sign. he also examined my neck and did not find anything wrong. I told him that I am hoping to have IVF and that TSH of over 2 might be an issue but he said it should not be. easy for him to say! he would not recommend that I start taking synthetic hormone just yet. he also said not to overdo it with iodine. basically the dose that is in a multivitamin is OK but no other iodine supps or see weed supps. unfortunately, even if I am beginning to develop underactive thyroid, there is nothing I can do to stop/delay it. if it happens I just have to go on synthetic hormone and there is nothing in between that can help. He also did not think my spotting related to thyroid. when thyroid goes seriously wrong it can affect menstrual cycle but my current levels are normal.


----------



## kits

Yay Bliss!!!! Awesome news :D

Twins?????


----------



## BBbliss

Thank you girls!

Kits, I hope so, oh boy


----------



## alison29

Congrats BBLISS! I bet you have permagrin

I love mad men just finished the series this weekend well up til last seasn.Something about Don . Need to find a different series now. Somehow dexter is not measuring up :(


----------



## alison29

Who will be our next IVF er Briss or Blythe?


----------



## Jazzbird

Congrats BBbliss!

I'm very excited to hear another success for this thread. Come on kits, Alison, Blythe, Briss! We are all cheering you on.

Xxx


----------



## Briss

alison, I am so struggling without Mad Men :) definitely something about Don, and I know exactly what it is about him but this is not the right place :) let me know if you find something that measures up. I am quite desperate. I know they are releasing season 7 but it will probably be a year before it's available on netflix.


----------



## kits

I love Don't Draper. He is such a sexy man. Not my type at all (I love the cute geeky type) but I bet that man can make a gal tingle in ways she's never been tingled before! :haha:


----------



## gingmg

Ahhhh!!! Congrats bbliss!!!! Will continue to pray for a healthy sticky bean ( or two)!


----------



## Briss

*kits*, well put :) I want to be tingled! I suppose I should be happy DH's medication works really well in that department but he is no Don Draper&#8230; sorry for all this "loose" talk, that's all I can think about these days &#8211; it's my approaching ovulation talking, not me ...

*Jazzbird*, do you think there is any way herbs can affect CBFM reading? I usually take herbs in the evening just before I go to bed so they come out with my FMU which I use for CBFM. I am still puzzled why CBFM did not give me any highs last cycle and this cycle it was similar, only I forgot to take the herbs last night and this morning I got a high. coincidence? 

*afm*, I have not put any more weight in a month! I still have about 3.5 kg that I would like to lose but egg quality is far more important so I gave up on that. My sugar free diet is not going that well. I went back to eating little bit of choc now and again and plenty on weekends but overall I eat far less sugar than before so I take some comfort in that. 

I spoke to a few ladies and one said she had pre AF spotting for 5 years until she was put on thyroid hormone and suddenly her spotting stopped!! Dealing with endocrinologists are so frustrating. Not that I want to go on the hormone but he could have at least acknowledged that these two things could be linked. her TSH was 3.4 so even slightly lower than mine. I have a feeling that endocrinologists completely ignore the fertility side of thyroid. I do not know else who I can talk to about this stuff. maybe I should see Zita West?


----------



## Jazzbird

Briss - I don't know if herbs can affect cbfm. But if you are getting the peak that's really all that counts. I always felt cbfm was really just telling you the same thing as all the other ov tests but the highs were never that consistent. Perhaps the herbs are cooling the heat causing the hormonal triggers to happen later and more rapidly ... But this is pure guesswork. Perhaps loads of high days is not necessarily a good thing? Your body is in a heightened state for too long? Just a thought. What does dr e say about cbfm?

I would not go to any other therapists until you conclude with dr E. You'll get conflicting theories, advice and treatments which may interfere with one another.


----------



## alison29

Briss: too funny with your loose talk..Dont feel bad i am sure our dhs are way "looser" when it comes to "hot" young women. I have that problem around ovulation too way too many men look appealing (its the older ones i question myself over). I think you should talk to Zita or someone else who will take the thyroid number seriously.

The sugar free diet well I went off the wagon a lot because nuts and nut butters started upsetting my stomach bad. Then i thought maybe I should give up the cheese as dairy is inflammatory ugh..So now i am trying to do gluten free whole grains (not low carb but slower carb) fruit and veg and meat. I made gluten free cupcakes they were really good!


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## Breaking Dawn

BBbliss said:


> Girls!
> 
> I tested and got a faint line!
> 
> Oh my God! I'm so happy!
> 
> Thank you thank you thank you for praying with me. I feel like this was the hardest part, now I can move on to the next stage of waiting... And keep praying :)

Yay!!!! I am so so happy for you :hugs:


Wow ladies...this group is in a roll. 
..whos next? :dance:


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## Briss

*BBbliss*, how are you feeling? have you had your beta yet?

*Jazzbird*, I agree having lots of HIGH days is confusing but I used to get 3-4 which was very helpful and let me get my O dates right. I could also plan things ahead a bit better. Got my second HIGH this morning. 

*alison*, gluten free cupcakes sounds good! I cant imagine my DH talking loose about women. he's just not the type but I'd find it strangely uplifting if I heard him saying anything loose. Oh boy, here I go again :) but actually I do enjoy these horny pre O days, this is one thing that takes my mind off TTC (well, at least its negative side) 

*Blythe*, how are you doing? I am so hoping intensive acu/herbs will do the trick and you wont need any IVF


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## Jazzbird

Briss - what about CM? I found that if I had EWCM I knew ov kits would test peak the next day or the day after. I think (for me) EWCM is the best indicator, since it has the function of making the environment sperm friendly - but I only ever got it for one day. I brought this up with my act and he said that was fine.


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## Briss

Jazzbird, sorry TMi but always found it really hard to check my CM, I have a lot usually and I just see what comes out but around O I am constantly aroused (as you no doubt can see from my silly posts&#8230;) so it's wet + we often BD (so there is some semen that comes out) and I just get confused between all these different kinds of wetness. Sometime I get tonnes of EWCM which is kinda hard to miss cos it can stretch for miles (well, maybe not miles but quite a bit) but other times it's just watery type. I also notice that I have less and less of EWCM, it used to be 2-3 days and now I get 1 day if I am lucky (provided I get it right in the first place cos it might just be the arousal liquid) . I once was very impressed with the amount of EWCM until I realised that it was gel coming out hours after I had my scan&#8230; so basically CBFM has been my best friend so far + temping really helps

I think my DH's treatment is wearing off, when I told him that my CBFM did not give me PEAk yet he was upset and said something like so we had sex for nothing then??? how can sex be for nothing, I mean honestly!


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## Blythe

Hi briss. I'm ok just tired of it all.....usual stuff. My temps have been ok but I'm not pregnant. 

Ewcm is a difficult one as I nearly always get it a few days before ovulation and by time I get strong positive opk it's all gone :(

Hope you are ok and that this cycle will be the magic one for you :flower:


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## BBbliss

Briss, I think the difference between EWCM and semen is that CM will stay slippery on your fingers until you wipe it of and semen will dry of. I'd say listen to your body first and BD when you feel aroused, that's nature working in your favor. Any urine test can still fluctuate greatly depending on concentration, last time you peed and how much you've had to drink hours before. I remember how stressed they always made me feel. 

Afm, I tested again and got stronger lines and that first night I got my bfp I had stabing cramps all night and part of the next morning but now they are gone and don't feel anything anymore, no cramps of any kind for now. My beta is tomorrow :)


----------



## Breaking Dawn

Briss...i used the following toilet paper test for EWCM vs Semen. put it in toilet paper...and fold the TP over it...semen will absorb into the TP like water...EWCM will not...it keeps it's consistency. 
Hahaha..the things we do.

Bliss...excited for your beta :)


----------



## kits

Ugh.. I'm at a bit of a slump, considering quitting TTC, having a couple of issues with oh. Nothing bad but just not enough bd'ing. He's got a really low libido. :grr: 

*sigh*

Briss, sex is never for nothing! And I also tend to follow what Breaking said about cm.


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## Briss

*Blythe*, second part of TWW is always hard. Sometime I just start crying out of nothing but I think that might be because my body already knows it's not pregnant and sends depressing messages to my brain. I am making DH to BD often as his doc recommended but then get worried that we are wasting his stuff before I get to O when it actually matters most but then again I just think what's the point it's not going to make any difference anyway and on and on and on&#8230; I read that book on doing less and achieving more hoping it will teach me to let go but I did not like it, I just do not believe in what she says. Too much "divine" this and that. I wish I could believe that there is somebody out there looking after me but after what I have been through it's just silly to even consider that. 

*BBbliss*, Great news on the line getting stronger! Best of luck with your beta! I agree I usually rely on my sex drive cos it disappears completely on or the day after O. the problem is that it starts very early last few days of AF

*Breaking Dawn*, excellent advice! I wonder what my DH would think if he catches me playing with my CM&#8230; 

*kits*, My DH also has low libido and it really let me down when we started TTC. getting him to BD was almost impossible. I struggled so much cos I thought he was just being nasty to me and did it on purpose. Things changed when he started his treatment cos his testosterone went up. it's amazing the role hormones play in our life. He is like a different person in bed. This is an experimental treatment that have been around for the last few years so no one can say for sure how it's going to work long term but so far so good. I hope you will sort things out with your OH.


----------



## kits

Thanks Briss, really appreciate you sharing that with me as it is a crazy situation to be in. My OH is fantastic & poor guy hates that he's like that, but rhe just is.

I don't know how to go about this or what we're going to end up doing. 

Lots of :hug: ladies!!


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## melly2

Kits: I can empathize with you! My DH has the worse libido ever (mostly after his testicular cancer). TTC was such a chore for us. It was no longer fun, and GOD forbid I ovulated on a weekday after work; there was no hope in hell I was getting any. It honestly left me so frustrated and in tears so many times. I didn't want to compare my husband to past boyfriends, but I couldn't help but to think my past boyfriends could do it at least twice a day and that still wouldn't have been enough. In our whole TTC time, that was without a doubt the worse part!


----------



## kits

I had no idea that others felt that way too. I thought I was the bad one for having such a high libido & I'd feel horrible for making him feel bad over it. 

I never wanted to turn TTC into a chore but because of our situation it definitely feels like it has. That's why I'm so close to just giving up.

Apart from that it's an amazing relationship, just don't want either one of us to just anymore.


----------



## Briss

Kits, you are definitely not alone, a while ago there were quite a few of us here with similar problem https://babyandbump.momtastic.com/trying-conceive-over-35/1569389-lack-intimacy-dtd.html most are now pregnant


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## melly2

Kits: you are definitely not alone here. And like you, I felt bad that I was pushing him and making it a chore, but the fact is, if we wanted children then frequent sex would have to happen. Like you, I love my husband so much and can't imagine being with anyone, but I've just come to accept that we don't have an overly intimate relationship and he has a low libido. Good news in all this: I never suspect he's cheating on me. ;-)


----------



## kits

Thank you ladies, really appreciate your support. Was really ready to give up. He's been really trying the past couple of nights but I've been feeling a bit too hurt. Feeling better this morning so I think we're going to stay on our TTC journey.

Thanks for reaching out. Have a great Friday!

:hug:


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## Briss

I am slightly confused with CBFM, I only got PEAK this morning but felt like I was ovulating yesterday and made hubby BD a lot so now when it seems to matter most he is giving up and says he cant do this any more, basically ended up arguing over sex. If I was not so horny I'd be seriously hurt! he is also going to go for a drink tonight just to annoy me. He's been so good last few months, very little beer and I was so happy but I think he's had enough now. I think I am going to leave him alone this cycle cos in the scheme of things none of it matters anyway, we've been doing it naturally for so long without any luck&#8230;


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## smurfy

Briss said:


> I am slightly confused with CBFM, I only got PEAK this morning but felt like I was ovulating yesterday and made hubby BD a lot so now when it seems to matter most he is giving up and says he cant do this any more, basically ended up arguing over sex. If I was not so horny I'd be seriously hurt! he is also going to go for a drink tonight just to annoy me. He's been so good last few months, very little beer and I was so happy but I think he's had enough now. I think I am going to leave him alone this cycle cos in the scheme of things none of it matters anyway, we've been doing it naturally for so long without any luck

yes it is so hard, my ovualtion was like any time over a week and often DTD alot before actual ovulation and then we ran out of steam and also was arguing, the last few months i just took the pressure off as we have not conceived over 3 years naturally and even being on the clomid for 5 months, so i thought it is not going to happen. I have started the down reg drugs this week so IVF here we come. Interesting when they did my husband sperm sample at the private clinic they said was still low on count, which we think has been our main issue all along (range 8, 12 and this time 25m) he has been taking vit c, e and multi vitamin which has helped, i have tried to limit his alcohol but not too much, he did say that when they monitor the sperm within 24 hrs the quality is very low, so unless we catch the sperm and egg all within 24 hrs it is virtually impossible, so IVF should be good for us, we will do 50% ICSI and then standard IVF. enjoy the long weekend


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## Briss

*smurfy*, good luck with your IVF. keep us posted. I think 25 million is good sperm count. do you know what was his motility and morphology? What clinic are you with?


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## kits

Briss, why do you think you ovulated yesterday? Do you get the pains?

I get what I think is ovulation pains but not always on ovulation. Today I woke up with them but I don't think I'm ovulating just yet, it'd be way too early!

Sorry about you falling out with your hubby :( They don't understand the freight train our hormones are on. I don't think they realize how much our animal instincts come out. I know you don't want to hear this but maybe a good drunken night out is what he needs just to unwind.

If you peek today, DTD yesterday & perhaps tomorrow those that's still good timing.

Are you using preseed?

:hug:


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## alison29

Kits my dh is the same way. He was talking about wanting to go on T supplements. The gels or patches make you sterile while you are on them! He has mood swings, low libido, low energy and not as much blood flow as he used to down there. What i have done to get around this problem is got him some clomid. Hopefully this will raise his t and help him feel better all around? IDK i am giving it to him with his fathers day stuff. I will let you know how that goes.


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## Briss

*kits*, I am not always right but quite often I can tell judged by my sex drive and ovary pains if I am ovulating and from which ovary and it felt like it was either yesterday or today. On the other hand CBFM has never been wrong yet so it might be tomorrow. I will see what my temp looks like next few days it may give me a better idea what's going on. 

I used preseed before but it did not do anything really and it just makes it much wetter so DH cant feel anything. It also kills some sperm (not much but when you have low count every spermy counts!). I think we BD enough this cycle, ideally I'd get one more over the weekend but as I said it's not going to make any difference anyway. I am hoping for a miracle here and surely miracles can happen even if you BD on a wrong day 

*alison*, is the clomid treatment supervised by a doctor? our urologist said clomid is not for my DH cos it's too hush and testosterone will most likely jump too high too quick. but I know clomid worked for so many couples


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## kits

Not working on my lunch, yay!

Thanks Allison! Let me know how you get on. ;) I'm going to look into various concoctions to give him.

Had a good chat with my sweet oh. In all honesty we have a chat every month but this one was a bit more serious. I've changed my entire life for him & the pub. And I support him with every single one of his crazes so I made extremely clear that I've been neglected & that I need his support on this. After reading the thread that Briss showed me our situation isn't that bad but my hormones make it seem that way. I get so upset over him eating a tin of spaghetti or pork pie (like Briss does when he drinks) because I put so much effort into being healthy. But I just have to let it go. The atmosphere gets way too tense when I push his buttons too much. In all fairness the man can work too much sometimes.

We had some sweet loving this morning before I came to work even though I had to throw a bit of a tantrum over it. But I feel better as now I feel he'll have fresher swimmers for when I do ovulate which is bigger concern after over 3 weeks of not DTD.

Briss hun, you need a girly night. Or maybe a hot jacuzzi. Something to relax you & hubby out. Does the hubby not get frisky worth beer?

I always feel bad offering that kind of advice as I don't know what you do or don't like. 


Take care ladies!! I know hugs aren't the answer, but I can't help but want to hug y'all all the time to make our troubles go away! And I'm not even that much of the huggy type! :haha:

:hug:


I cannot wait for my next accu, Tuesday!


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## BBbliss

melly2 said:


> Kits: I can empathize with you! My DH has the worse libido ever (mostly after his testicular cancer). TTC was such a chore for us. It was no longer fun, and GOD forbid I ovulated on a weekday after work; there was no hope in hell I was getting any. It honestly left me so frustrated and in tears so many times. I didn't want to compare my husband to past boyfriends, but I couldn't help but to think my past boyfriends could do it at least twice a day and that still wouldn't have been enough. In our whole TTC time, that was without a doubt the worse part!


Omg Melli, my experience is exactly the same (minus the cancer) I always had a super high libido all my life and past boyfriends were always as ready as I was and often has sex more then once a day, they also were all cheaters! DF is the first man I have spent the night with and not had sex, but right at the beginning of our relationship I noticed it was too much for him and I knew I could lose him over it and decided to slow down, it wasn't worth losing this amazing relationship over, I'm also not the same I used to be so now we are fine, I just tell him when I want it and he can get mentally and sometimes he has to take a pill now and then, but I would never ever trade what I have now just for more sex, like you I know he will never ever cheat :)

So kits, I'm glad you had all the examples and discovered its so common to have libido problems once you get older, a great relationship is hard to come by. 

Afm, I had an extremely low first beta, but I'm still positive. I've been reading positive outcome stories on other forums and I feel not all is lost. I could also have been dehydrated at the time and it can affect your blood beta level, also maybe I had both embryos implant and that's why my line initially got darker and then stabilized from maybe losing one of them. Just theories I know, but I'm trying to stay positive. I had a little brown spotting a couple of day ago and AF never came so as long as I don't see red I'm still good :)


----------



## kits

Always stay positive!! Praying for you!! And Yea, isn't worth losing an amazing relationship!

Yea, I really appreciate everyone reaching out, honestly. Don't think y'all know how much it genuinely helped!


----------



## smurfy

Briss said:


> *smurfy*, good luck with your IVF. keep us posted. I think 25 million is good sperm count. do you know what was his motility and morphology? What clinic are you with?

for the last one at 25m which was in April was after 3 days abstaining, and it was motaility of 72%, but all stats dramtically reduced after 24 hours. 

I am at Woking Nuffield, recommended from people and so far i really like their approach, it is on the way to work and only 20 mins from home, which i think are really important when choosing where you go


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## Briss

*BBbliss*, what was your beta? maybe just a late implanter? I met ladies with first beta below 30 and healthy full term pregnancies. I am hoping it's just some kind of mess up at the lab and your next beta will be fine 

*kits*, "beer" is basically a taboo in my books &#61514;:) I have had so much drama over it, we lost a lot of time (at least 2 years) TTC with poor sperm count mainly due to DH drinking beer with his mates every other night. once he stopped his count increased 10 times! (it was still low but not prohibitively low), my failed IVf is also most likely due to poor sperm cos DH was drunk throughout my stimming. It got to the point where I decided to get a divorce and carry on on my own with IUI and donor sperm cos in the last 4 years TTC my fertility decreased a lot. 3 years ago I would have been able to go through stim IVF with no problems and now it's almost impressible. precious times wasted all because DH could not get his act together. I am trying not think about it and just move forward cos he is trying now.

I have very strong pain in my left ovary, much stronger than ovulation pain. I am most likely popping a cyst there. How unfortunate&#8230;


----------



## kits

Learn more & more about you everyday Briss, you've been on such a tough road :(

Hoping last night is over & done with as peacefully as possible. :hugs:

Would it be unfortunate for you to be popping a cyst? I don't really know too much about cysts but I thought it'd be a good thing to get rid of them. Good luck. I regularly have right ovary pain but it looks like it has nothing to do with my ovaries, but possibly my bowels.

I didn't realize beer affected the numbers so drastically. We run a little pub in a little town where our customers are pretty much exactly the same everyday. And they drink so much beer. I was so shocked when we first got it. I'd be like, 'Billy I don't think he should be drinking so much it can't be good for his health' constantly about every single one. Yet they all reproduce so easily. I hate pulling out the 'IT'S NOT FAIR' card but seriously I don't get. It's not fair!

A lady would come in begging us to sell her a bottle of wine 'for her fella' when she was very clearly about 7 or 8 months pregnant.

And don't get me started on last night!

Came back from the cinema and this friend of ours (who drinks a lot but has 3 healthy boys & another little one on the way) & his pregnant misses were at the pub. He was drinking & guess what... So was she!!! She had just turned 41, went off birth control on January & got pregnant within 3 months!!! She'll stand in the front & smoke (I've not seen her do this yet but everyone else had) and there she was on a pint of guiness. 

She has no idea how lucky she is & she's just being ridiculously selfish. I told my OH that my friends on here struggle so much & she just slaps that onto our faces.

I won't even begin discussing the mothers* where I work.

My point is, it's totally unfair how alcohol can affect others in such different ways & we draw the short straws.

Sorry ladies! We'll get there, one way or another, we'll get there!


----------



## kits

I forgot to say Hiya to smurfy & good luck with the ivf!

I use my mobile phone to get on here a lot so don't always get a chance to read everything. I type most of my posts that way, hence why Don Draper turned out Don't Draper, heh.

Sorry!


----------



## Briss

Don't Draper? I'd definitely Do Draper :) so funny. btw am watching Mad Men again from the beginning... I am so sad

I guess I should not have doubted my CBFM, my sex drive is still on, got EWCM this morning and temp is still low. looks like I am ovulating today. no idea what it was with my left ovary yesterday, it's still sore this morning but last night it was really bad, I was afraid to walk, move or lift anything. Unfortunately had to work late and seating was also a problem, i had to almost lie on my chair just to make it bearable. It must have been a large follicle, maybe not a cyst cos cysts usually come out after O. I have cysts from time to time and I had a very large one years ago so I really can tell when it's something with my ovaries. Plus during mild stims I had several follicles on my ovaries and I could really feel them. Scans were so uncomfortable.

*kits*, do not get me started on people drinking and getting easily pregnant. That seriously shakes my faith (what's left of it) in anything good. I've come across serious alcoholics - men practically have vodka running in their veins instead of blood and yet they get their women pregnant easily, not that they want these children and not even going to look after them... life is not fair and that's a fact. I am just trying to figure out if life has any rules at all or whether it's completely random. it's just any rule I manage to make out, i can always find more exceptions to it. There seem to be some nasty rules though that always work 

beer has estrogenic properties and it tends to lower testosterone levels and reduce sperm count as a consequence. for most men it's not a big deal but if the sperm count is low to begin with it may have a very noticeable effect. 

It's so interesting that you are running a pub! Do you live there as well? It must be so freeing to have your own business. 

*Blythe*, how are you? I miss you!


----------



## kits

I miss Blythe too! I hope her hubby is ok!

But I know with this process sometimes just hiding out is the best way to cope. My last tww i went pretty nuts.

I need to watch Mad Men from the beginning I've only watched it sporadically, but I love that man! He's going to be in a baseball movie. Don't think I want to tarnish the Don Draper image :haha:

I'm a little funny with certain books & shows. Some I can follow religiously but with others I find I don't want to watch the last few episodes or read the last couple of chapters. It's like I don't want the stories to end! So I just let them linger in my imagination. Weird, huh?

Yep we live here! Umm, it's interesting (in a good way). Thankfully work has let me go on flexi-time or I wouldn't have been able to cope with the schedules. My fiancee (I think that word is too formal, so I prefer my Other Half or partner because he's so much more than boyfriend) has always been in leisure, running clubs, hotels, pubs, etc. so the only real way for us to have a life together was to take this route so we did! He does all the work though, I only do little bits now. After we lost our little one I said there's no way I'm going to ever stress again.. we were sooo busy during the winter. It's fun, but you are a bit exposed to the public. It's crap that anytime I go downstairs I have to be happy, but I manage. It's also kind of funny that it's my partners home town so he's closely related to half the town!

And I'm not a big drinker so he lucked out with that!

I think I tend to feel a little too much around my ovaries during ovulation, it gets stronger with each cycle. I hope that's a good thing, would dread to think if it wasn't. The best way I can explain it is by calling it 'major activity around my uterus'. Like a a very heavy AF but not crampy. 

Have your pains settled down now? I know exactly what you mean with the sitting position. When I thought I had a cyst I had to proper slouch. It's quite uncomfortable.

Good luck!


----------



## Blythe

Briss - I miss you too :) 

Maybe i should watch Mad Men as i do like to get my teeth stuck into a good series. I watched the US version of Mistresses.it really was the most appalling pile of drivel but i loved it!!!i watched 13 episodes in 2 days.

Your chart looks nice with steady temps and lots of BDing and good ovulation on CD13. Sorry to read that you may have a cysthoping you get no more pain.

I was just stalking charts on FF again and there are the most random charts ending up in a BFP. 

no spotting this month for me and very little PMT. Certainly not pregnant but happy with my cycle. I have my scan next week to see if i will go ahead this month or not. I may disappear for a bit as unlike last ivf cycle when i shared with everyone i feel like just keeping my head down and not telling a soul. There is nothing about this process that is exciting to me.not anymore.

I went to new TCM lady this week and my tummy is very bruised where the needles were. I had a good look at all my needles and she puts them all the way in as far as they will go. Whenever she comes in the room my whole body tenses with sheer terror at the pain she may inflict upon me. 

Still i believe it may be workingi feel like there are some very subtle changes taking place. Very subtle mind [and possibly down to my new teabags - see below] but my nails are strong and long again and my skin looks better. I still feel mentally stuck but i feel quite committed to continuing with the herbs and a weekly acu session. 

Not sure if i mentioned before but i brought some tea pigs liquorice and peppermint tea bags - they really are the most delicious things ever and only 1 or 2 cals per cup.


----------



## kits

That's totally understandable Blythe, wishing you the best of luck for your scan. Gonna pray for you hun!

That sounds like a terryfying accu session, you're brave to take it on. Are you still getting a massage afterwards?

I love peppermint tea but liquorice makes me very sickly & nauseous.


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## Blythe

thanks Kit - the massage is great. However, its not as great as it was that first timebut she does give my uterus and ovaries a really deep massage. I think this is probably good for them in terms of blood supply etc but i do worry at certain times during my cycle. i will not go there if i do start the IVF cycle as firm massage in that area with bloated bits would not feel like the right thing to do.

hey i clicked on your FF and saw your pic - you are very pretty :flower:

Briss - get some of the braggs cider vinegar - it is very refreshing and very good for you. i mentioned before but a lady on amazon said it cleared her ovarian cysts!!

PS - after i posted my last post i started spottingtypical. Still I'm not far off my AF so not too concerned as its not like it was last month when it went on for days and days.


----------



## kits

Have you ladies read about intralipids??

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/...-yolk-soya-bean-oil-finally-got-pregnant.html


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## kits

Awww... Blythe :blush: that's very sweet as I have a tendency to border on low self esteem. 

Hopefully it won't be too long now Blythe.

Personally, I really don't like spotting. I think it makes me so much more anxious than a BFN. I think for me it's just a bad sign & makes me relive bad times. Luckily for some women it's totally normal & a good sign.

I only added my photo as I went into the FF chat rooms when my chemical was starting last cycle as I was a bit panicky. It was my first time there, but they all share their charts via the chat and have a ton of photos on their chart page so thought i'd go ahead too, heh. It may even get a bit soppy with lovey dovey stuff of my OH & me :blush:


Lots of :hug: ladies!


----------



## Briss

I moved on to watching call the midwife, maybe not the best idea it starts with a woman who's had 24 pregnancies/babies (she started when she was 14), apparently she never had a period cos she has been pregnant all the time??? maybe I should go back to sexy Draper.

*Blythe*, definitely watch Mad Men I think it's one of the best TV series I've seen but I really watch it mainly because of the Draper character :) I think i've seen a couple of episodes of Mistresses It did not stick with me for some reason, I may try it again though

I've signed up for an annual VIP FF, I always thought surely I wont need it for so long but now obviously it may take a while so may as well stalk pregnancy charts. 

I am sorry about spotting, i think it's maybe even better not to say anything cos that's one of the nasty rules of life the minute you say that something is going well, it stops being so :( I think spotting for 1 day before AF is actually OK, it's 3-5 days that I'd be worried about. 

Best of luck with your scan next week and your IVF cycle. I totally understand about not wanting to share. If I could I'd also much rather just get on with the process staying emotionally as detached as possible. sharing brings on lots of emotions which are just not helpful. unfortunately I find it hard to keep things to myself I think unless I share my thoughts here I risk getting it out to people I do not trust. I recall how I just started crying out loud in the middle of lunch and told a friend all my fertility problems. it was just something she said about her daughter being pregnant, the thought that people my age are getting grandchildren was just too much for me and I lost it. but she is such gossip, I feel sick thinking how my most intimate problem is being a topic of conversation between her and everyone she knows

I did have bruises with my previous doc and even bleeding. hated it actually. I like Dr E cos I do not feel the needles and actually enjoy it but ultimately I would not mind being in pain or bruised if i was sure it's doing some good. I think it is in your case cos your chart was really good I am so hoping your body is in perfect shape now to embrace IVF. 

Do you drink licorice before O? I read that it has estrogenic effect and promotes ovulation. I'll check with Dr E cos it seems to be powerful stuff just want to make sure it works with his herbs. 

re massage, I quite agree better to stop it for your IVF cycle but hopefully it is doing its job in getting you ready. 

*kits*, so funny that you do not want to know how the stories end :) I also love my imagination, my mind can develop the stories so much better :) I meant interesting in a good way it's just such a different life compared to working in an office, you are at the heart of your local community, you probably know everything about everyone :) but you are so brave with the pub life though, I'd find it so hard to be exposed to the public all the time, I tend to "hide" in my flat and really need to pul myself together before I am ready to get out but then at work I also "hide" in my office, I would not be able to work in open plan

re intralipids, it's usually prescribed when a woman has immunology issues. it's quite hard core I think but a lot of women do have immunology problems without ever knowing it. there is some testing but it's quite complicated so if you had several mc or failed IVFs they usually recommend this treatment on a "just in case" basis. 

*afm*, did not get a temp rise this morning. It was quite early and I adjusted it so it looks slightly up but in reality it was probably the same as yesterday. really strange. maybe I wont ovulate this cycle? that would be the first. we spent most of yesterday trying to BD, I wont bore you with details but it was really tough, took hours I came twice but DH was nowhere near we fell asleep in the middle of it then woke up in an hour or so and carried on.... by the time he was done we were absolutely exhausted and I fell asleep again with my bottom up in the air :) the things we do... I was so happy yesterday thinking we have done all we could this month but may be not. when I told him my temp did not rise this morning he looked like he was in pain :) so definitely no more BD this cycle


----------



## kits

We have friends over tonight, who have brought along their little 5 month baby girl. It feels so good to not be envious! Really happy for them.

On another funnier note.. Took 2 opk's this after noon & both show really strong lines but not a surge yet. So to let my oh know we need to :sex: I told him to have a look in the bathroom (and nothing else), so he has a look & then says, oooh... so does this mean you're pregnant?

Haha, no silly those are the the kits you got me. Then he goes, OH!! We get to have sex!

Funniest thing is our friends decided to turn up early, by almost 3 hours & caught us just as we got naked! :rofl: :haha:

We asked them to wait downstairs in the pub while I finished 'vacuuming'

But what cracked me up so much was him thinking the opk's were bfp's!!!

Sorry if that was way tmi, just thought I'd share a bit of the funny side to TTC!


----------



## Blythe

Kits - i hope your OH managed to complete the vacuuming&#8230;Will you manage to get another session in whilst your friends are over. We couldn't do that in our flat as the walls are too thin and we have the squeakiest mattress and floorboards ever. Not that we do too much moving nowadays.

Briss - as my contract is now up with BT vision i am thinking of getting an apple tv and joining netflix so i will watch MM :)

You have a way of articulating stuff that really hits home with me. In particular, you mentioned that you had told a woman about your struggle TTC and now feel sick that it might be talked about by her. I feel very much the same about someone i told it too. It is so very personal.


i went for acu yesterday with old doc and she said my pulse had changed a lot and that if it continued like that it would indicate pregnancy. It felt good to get some positive feedback. I told her i am not pregnant but she knows AF is due so said it was probably that. Still the upshot is my KI pulse has improved and i feel better going into this IVF than if i had gone ahead last month.


----------



## Briss

Kits, that's so funny!

Blythe, you may need US netflix, I think UK one does not have MM. 

I think I can even imagine how my friend is going to talk about my issues with other people (some of whom may even know me) and even what phrases she'd use cos I know her quite well and that makes me feel so exposed. I should not have told her but that's done now. 

Talking to ladies who have no idea what LTTTC is all about is just so frustrating. also painful because it's a glimpse of life what it should have been, sometime I forget how easy and exciting it is for most people. 

I am so happy to hear what your acu doc said! that's so reassuring! it's very important to know that you have the best shape for IVF. I really do not understand why DR E does not think having acu more often helps, it clearly does. although I cant complain having ovulated on CD13 (maybe even 14!) this cycle without taking EPO. I wonder what my cycle will be like next month, although I may have to do 3D SIS so we may not get to TTC at all. 

do you get aroused only before O or after O as well? I do not think it's just the estrogen that's responsible for sex drive. when I have estrogenic cysts they do not seem to have any effect on my sex drive although my estrogen levels get very high. that reminds me, I need to do day 3 bloods at that lab again next month to see if I have a cyst. 

I clearly ovulated cos my sex drive has almost gone this morning. Shockingly although I completely gave up on BD yesterday and did not even attempt to get DH in the mood, he was up for it!! all by himself! He wants to get me pregnant and I can see that his patience with this process is running thin. 

re liquorice, will definitely check with Dr E, am curious myself. I think it must be good, you have been drinking it and your cycle is getting better so it must be adding some benefit. I am just concerned about things that promote ovulation cos it may make me O early.


----------



## Blythe

Briss - what is the name of that chap your DH went too? maybe if this IVF fails i will get mine to go.i cannot believe the change in your DH in terms of wanting [and actually] BDing.

Mine is done in after 2 x sessions


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## Briss

Dr Jonathan Ramsay https://www.thelondonclinic.co.uk/consultants/mr-jonathan-william-ramsay I read about him a lot and asked around, heard nothing by highest praise, he made couples pregnant in cases where men had zero sperm count. everyone knows him, my FS, UCH, even Dr E said we could not have found anyone better. re sex drive, honestly we did not have as much sex in our 20s as we have done in the last few months. I just hope his SA improves. If you go to see him, do not get discouraged if he says something negative, he does not promise things and always warns that nothing may work out, it's just how he is but I am sure he will do whatever's possible. I am always so embarrassed for DH cos he asks stupidest questions like if any of his 60 year old patients have 100 mil SA... another thing I like about Dr Ramsay is that he does not ask you to spend money on tests unless it's really necessary and will determine his treatment. like DNA fragmentation, it's good to know the result but he said no point wasting money I can tell you it's not going to be good :( also at UCH they said we may need to extract sperm from the testies but he said it will not give us anything at all just based on all the information we provided about DH's SA in the last 4 years. I wish there was a female fertility doc of the same calibre 

my sex drive is back today and I have EWCM... how confusing, looks like I may have a cyst there which mixes it all up cos my left side is not quiet.


----------



## Irish_eyes

Well ladies, went for my first acupuncture appointment at the weekend. 

He said I have a yang deficiency due to my hands and feet being cold, not feeling refreshed after a nights sleep etc. I also told him I was never sure what to take as my first day of my cycle as I always spot. People say you should always take full red flow and enough to fill a tampon as first day. At times I would get red flow on wiping but brownish stains enough to fill a liner. This would confuse me as I don't I could put that down to spotting. 

Anyway as I had fear he wants to see me twice a week until my period is sorted. I am so worried about where the cash is coming from to pay for twice a week. My mum, God love her, offered to pay for some sessions. She's all for it but DH is having a fit at the frequency of it. Anyway, he also gave me herbal tablets, one for ovulation and the other for my periods. Not sure why he gave me an ovulation one but have to take 3 of each twice a day. So all in all it's costing me £86 a week. Going to see how I go but if I can't afford it I am happy with once a week. 

He never mentioned any dietary requirements or anything.


----------



## Blythe

Hi Irish Eyes - it can certainly be confusing when it comes to determining which should be counted as the first day of your cycle. I have had issues with spotting in the past and the last couple of months. I had spotting on CD 26 [of a 28 day cycle] and today i had bright red with BM so hoping it will be proper flow at some point today so i can call it CD1. If it was not enough to wear a sanitary towel/use tampon i would not call it CD1 even though there is red there.

i have been having acu 2 x per week and i have to say that i have noticed differences in my cycle and in other areas to. I never really got that with going 1 x per week. Having said that i am taking herbs too so i suspect it is that more than the acu.

So I'm hoping that my period will get going properly and i can call today CD1. That gives me a nice 28 cycle with ovulation CD13 and for the first time in years i have not had the cramping days before AF. I also managed to avoid my MAD ANGRY DAY. This day usually occurs 5 to 4 days before AF arrives and i get really pissed off really quickly with everyone and at everything. I was angry for maybe a couple of hours tops this monththis is a very noticeable thing for me and I'm so happy at last to have some noticeable changes which justify the expense of all of these treatments. Also my spotting was barely noticeable this month :)

How did you find the needles?

Briss - thank you so much for the details. Your chart looks so much better than last month and all that BDing.its great to see these continued improvements - all leading towards your BFP:flower:


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## Irish_eyes

Blythe, the needles were fine. I didn't feel anything at all really but not sure if I am just used to needles now. I have one of those mad days, in fact mine last a few days. Everything annoys me so hoping that the herbs help with that.


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## Blythe

Irish Eyes - do you think you can manage the 2 x sessions per week for a month then maybe you could bring it down to 1 x per week thereafter? i know its hard to swallow these expensesin recent months i have become increasingly desperate and just pay for things with cards and avoid looking at statements. perhaps not the best approach. Thats why i am so pleased to see that it is doing something for me.at long last. 

I have read about many women responding very positively within weeks of treatment so hopefully it will be the same for you.

i look forward to reading about your progress and what it does for your cycle.


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## Irish_eyes

I am going to try my best with the twice a week for a month but if I am struggling I will just reduce it. I am sort of stressing over something that is meant to be distressing. My acupuncturist does not accept card otherwise that would have taken a bit of pressure off me to be honest. 

How long have you been doing it Blythe?


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## kits

Your progress sounds fantastic Blythe, I hope it stays on that path! 

Irish, I know it seems difficult especially financially but if you can get some help from your mom then try to give it a go. Maybe try twice a week every other week, or is that not a possibility?

I'm not loaded with money by a long shot but luckily my partner supports me a lot.

Briss, I wonder if the moon phases have anything to do with this, I have found myself with a much lower sex drive than I usually have. On top of that my cm is not a lot, I usually have a decent amount that I usually find very comforting. But my OH had totally been up for it! Even after a crappy all day shift yesterday!

Then all of a sudden today I feel my libido slowly starting to rise while at work.

Let me know how you're doing tomorrow, I'm sure I'll feel that way the day after, haha!


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## Blythe

Irish eyes - i have been messing around with acu/herbs for one thing and another for about 8 years but for TTC for around 2 1/2 years. During that time i have tried different practitioners. I did both acu and herbs with one lot for about 4 months then dropped it, acu and herbs with another lot for about 5 months, then acu only for a few months, then herbal pills only and now i am back with acu and herbal powder again but with more frequent acu. 

i have tried most other things too, vitex, black cohosh, every vitamin known to man, spells, positive thinking, honey, aspirin, teas, dietary changes, DHEA, soy isoflavines, clomid, turkey baster method, lying with legs/bum in air, crystals, coq10, fertility yoga, meditation, fertility massage, fertility qi gong, moon cup, preseed..you get the idea.

One thing i have not tried is regular sex.i mean who the hell is doing that shit after TTC for this long :wacko:

we have had many discussions on here and i would have to say from what i have read in books and from what i have been told by TCM practitioners it is the herbs that are the most effective part of the treatment. My current one [well one of them] says it is 30% acupuncture and 70% herbs.some women of course have wonderful success with only acupuncture.

This stuff has got to work for youif you are getting stressed about the finances have it 2 x per week for 1 or 2 weeks only and then decrease to 1 per week. Briss's current practitioner started her on 1 per week and then after first month once every 2 weeks - Briss please correct me if i got that wrong.

as you are doing herbs maybe you could consider less acu sessions

i remember starting chinese medicine and thinking it was magic medicineits not. It can be quite slow working but very effective if you give it a chance. Make it work for you and fit into your life as you may find yourself doing it a bit longer than anticipated. They say 3 months and your cycles should be looking better. I hope very much you are one of those girls that see results quickly and that it leads to your BFP :flower:


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## Briss

*Irish_eyes*, I did not even tell my DH that I resumed acu/herbs cos he does not believe in it and thinks I am being foolish and waste money. That's because I had bad experience before and it never worked for me but this time around I am seeing a different doc and I think it's working out much better. I am sure even if you just go once a week you would still see improvement. as I said mine asked me to come once every 2 weeks and he thinks that's enough. 

That's interesting that cold hands and feet mean yang deficiency, I usually have cold hands and feet but so far they did not tell me that I have any yang deficiency

*kits*, my aunt is so into this moon phasing thing, she would even tell me if it is the right day to get your hair cut. I am usually annoyed by this. I do think there must be something in it but I just do not think people know how to interpret it correctly. anyway, my sex drive is quite low but it's still here. the thing is usually right after O I enjoy a sort of stillness in that area, I mean I have no urges nothing is going on down there and I am quite happy to feel like that in TWW but this cycle it's different, not completely quiet so I may have a estrogenic cyst afterall. 

*Blythe*, looks like you had a really good cycle. I am sorry about AF but at least you can see clear improvement and can face IVF now. It's so good that you did not have any "angry days", it's a big change! 

*afm*, I had the usual points needled today, no heat lamp. he was very pleased with my chart and particularly my O date. I mentioned my left ovary pains and that it could be a cyst but he said if it was a functional cyst I would not have an ovulatory chart. That's interesting actually cos I had cysts before and yet I was clearly ovulating on the cycles they appeared. I wonder if it was another follicle that just kept on growing after the dominant one already released the egg?

we discussed my FSH and he said that the correct FSH reading should be around 200 Oestradiol so it looks like my FSH for this cycle is between 13-14, not great but it was higher before so I am hoping it's on its way down. I am getting the same herbs from CD1 and next acu in 2 weeks. 

re liquorice, Dr E did not actually think liquorice does anything for your cycle or fertility. he said it's used in 70% of all Chinese herbal formulas to lessen poisonous effect of some herbs (particularly in raw form) and also to purify them. He did not think it will affect my ovulation so I guess I could try it.


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## Briss

completely agree with everything that Blythe said. I do believe that with TCM a lot depends on the practitioner so if it's not working out in 2-3 months consider changing your doc. You must trust in what your practitioner is doing, otherwise I do not think it's going to work. 

Blythe, cant agree more re regular BD, it's particularly hard for men there is such a difference when we BD just in case sort of thing compared to when we "have to". When we had IVF DH completely refused to have any sex (which was actually needed to get his stuff refreshed) cos he thought he paid for IVF and that deal included getting him free of any obligation to BD&#8230; he was seriously disappointed. It's very different now that he is on medication but his doc said he did not test this treatment long term yet so cant guarantee this would last


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## kits

Still at work but I thought I'd just quickly say, my ACU won't give me any herbs until she accurately knows my temps. Last cycle doesn't count since my chart was so chaotic.

I wish she would now reading what Blythe said!


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## Briss

*Blythe*, I am being silly, I've been drinking liquorice for ages and I did not even know it! apparently it's one of the ingredients in one of my favorite Kusmi tea https://en.kusmitea.com/our-teas/herbal-tea-rooibos/be-cool.html it also has lemon verbena and peppermint. I think it's all natural and no caffeine; and tastes great but I tend to add fresh mind and nettles when I make a pot.


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## Irish_eyes

Ladies thanks for all the info. I am thinking that maybe best to cut it to once a week as it is causing a bit of friction between DH and I. It has always been the herbs I was interested in anyway. I went tonight and he put the needles in different areas this time. My forehead, temples, near wrists and ankle. He has also been using the heat lamp and gaving me a massage. Have any of you got a massage?


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## Irish_eyes

He also mentioned temps but not sure if he wanted me to actually do that.


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## Irish_eyes

Blythe I often say to DH that the reason we can't get pregnant is due to the lack of BD!!!!


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## Briss

*Irish_eyes*, my previous doc always gave me massage and cupping at the end of every treatment. I loved it! unfortunately the treatment itself was not going well as my cycle stayed short. this new doc does not give me any massages. it's good to do temps cos they can tell a lot by looking at your charts.


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## Blythe

Briss said:


> *Blythe*, I am being silly, I've been drinking liquorice for ages and I did not even know it! apparently it's one of the ingredients in one of my favorite Kusmi tea https://en.kusmitea.com/our-teas/herbal-tea-rooibos/be-cool.html it also has lemon verbena and peppermint. I think it's all natural and no caffeine; and tastes great but I tend to add fresh mind and nettles when I make a pot.

Those teas look divine - i love the tins!


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## Briss

tins are actually very useful cos once I finish it I re-use the tin for my nettles or mate and you can place all tins on top or each other which is very handy space wise (I've accumulated so much herbs in the kitchen + vits so space is becoming an issue and it all looks quite messy). although DH thinks these teas are terribly overpriced


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## alison29

Briss: I have got another netflix series that is really good. It's called Bates motel. It is the prequel series to the psycho movie but it's modern. Really intriguing, the deputy sheriff is easy on the eyes you will get addicted to it by the second episode.


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## BBbliss

Girls I hope you are all doing well and on your way to your BFPs this thread had a really nice run of BFP so far, even I got one!!! But unfortunately for me I had a chemical pregnancy so this wasn't my time. 

I'm going to take a break to detox from all the hormones and decide my next step then. 

Thank you for your unconditional support, I'm really happy I had this incredible group of women to share my journey with. 
You all deserve your BFPs the sooner the better :)


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## Briss

BBbliss, I am so sorry about your chemical. heart-breaking! Have you had a follow up app yet? Do they know if this is a chromosomal issue or implantation/immune issue? When I had my chemical, the clinic was actually very optimistic and said it's better than getting a bfn cos at least your body was trying to do what it's supposed to. I am so hoping you will get your sticky BFP soon, maybe even naturally there are so many stories where ladies were getting pregnant after failed IVFs. I'd definitely take it easy next 1-2 months to let your body recover before going for further treatments.


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## Blythe

Bbbliss. I'm so very sorry to read your news. :hugs: thinking of you


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## BBbliss

Briss, I didn't have my app yet they are letting me decide when I'm ready to come in. I'm absolutely sure it was a chromosomal issue. I had very strong lines 7dpt. I don't believe I have any immune issues, my body has done it before and if it has anything to do with genetics I'm also blessed, my grandmothers both had 10 and 13 kids each. My cousins get pregnant one after the other. I do think it was purely a chromosomal problem and if that's the case, nature knows what the best path it is to be taken. I have my piece with that, I wouldn't want to have an unhealthy child. Thank you for your support. It's sad but there's still hope.


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## kits

There's always hope hun :) :flower: Get some rest & spend some quality time with your family. 

So sorry it had to happen to you.


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## BBbliss

There's always hope :)


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## kits

Yep, always! It's all we got :)

Funnily enough, I watched the season finale of The Originals last night and the werewolf/vampire baby that was born right at the end was named Hope because it seems the witches want her dead. 

On another note, I've been refraining from posting as I've been on a mini emotional roller coaster. Sorry ladies, didn't mean to be rude! With ovulation it feels like I have 2 AF's! :grr:

I love y'all :hug:


Briss, I loved your elaborate defense statement on tins ;) I can't seem to get rid of mine, I have way too much junk, none of which fits in a tin :haha:


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## Briss

I woke up this morning feeling terribly sad, depressed and really scared. I was completely fine and happy (to the extent it's possible considering the circumstances) when I went to bed last night. I do not know what happened during the night, it's probably my approaching birthday, yet another year and I am still no where near&#8230; this is probably the last year when it's possible for us to try and make it happen, and it does seem unlikely we can even hope for a second child. everything just looks so hopeless today&#8230;


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## kits

So sorry Briss, I totally feel ya. :hugs:

I am so down that I feel like I'm going to quit my job. Even updated my journal as I couldn't shake the feeling.. But mine started last night. Just a wave of doom & gloom.

Can't seem to connect with my few friends.

When is your birthday? Mine is June 5th.

Loads of :hug:


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## Blythe

Briss - I'm sorry to hear you woke up feeling so sad :( maybe it is the birthdaymaybe its the hormones or maybe its just that horrid place we go to sometimes.

You will start feeling better. I know how hopeless you feel but you have so much working for you. A great man that loves you and is working hard to get you pregnant, a regular cycle, a plan [Dr E and Dr R and NHS IVF] , a backup plan [Germany IVF] and the on-going possibility that it could happen any time. IT COULD HAPPEN THIS MONTH.why they heck notthere are girls out there getting pregnant with much less favourable odds and mad looking charts.

I'm sorry today is not a good day but i promise you will feel better soon :flower:


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## Briss

*kits*, thanks. I will be 38 in June, I was supposed to have 2-3 children by now and return back to work from my last maternity&#8230; Instead I am seeing yet another colleague off to maternity and am supposed to take on her work load as well (I am covering for one new mum already!) when is it going to be my turn?? quitting job is just not an option, I will end up going mental if I stay at home all day (I will probably end up going with no showers and wearing the same clothes for weeks &#8230;horrible stuff). it's not even my age cos many get pregnant even older but it's just I've been in this for 4 long years full time day after day with no progress whatsoever. 

A friend who gave birth a couple of months ago just wrote that she has not seen me in a year and she managed to have a baby and buy a house in the meantime. She knows I was TTC years before she even thought of trying. was it supposed to be well meaning? don&#8217;t think so

*Blythe*, thank you. somehow you always find the right thing to say. you are right I do have a few things going for me so there is still hope. I hope this feeling will pass and I will feel more hopeful tomorrow


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## kits

Blythe, you always have such beautiful & encouraging words to say :flower: :hugs:

And Briss, you're journey has been so long! You've got so much strength it's amazing. I can't even begin to imagine all you've been through.

Always praying for you ladies!!

Have a great Friday all :D


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## Briss

kits, I do not really have any strength left if I am honest it's just that there is no alternative. I have no choice but to carry on trying &#8230;


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## gingmg

Just wanted to stop in and say :hi: Thinking of you and sending:dust:


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## Jazzbird

Thinking of you lovely ladies, especially you Briss. It can and does happen frequently for people who have been trying for years. Don't give up. Xxx


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## kits

It's nice to see you ladies!

Come around more often :D


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## kits

How are ya doing ladies?

Blythe, how are ya? Hope things are well with ya hun :kiss:

Briss, I know sometimes you're close to reaching the end of your tether, but trust me.. you're made of some really strong stuff!! I have a friend who's your age & gave up a while ago. You're definitely made of the good stuff & you deserve a baby or 3! :flower:

How are you liking the VIP FF? I got it during a Facebook promo they were having & bought the year sub for $24.99. I used to use Ovia, but I like FF so much more.

I know this isn't TTC related & none of you are probably interested but I thought I'd share this bit of info.

I'm not sure when, but it looks like I'm going to quit my job. It's so difficult to try living 2 life's. I have a normal* day job that I start around 11am & finish around 7ish pm. & I get excluded from almost all social activities because of my hours with my work friends. I then tend to work on Saturdays we have events on, make food on Wednesday nights for Poker & any other night for our Pool or Darts & Dominoes teams. Plus I work on Sundays when my OH goes away for whatever recreational activities he's interested in (tomorrow it's AirSoft, it used to be baseball). Friday nights we're both off but I'm usually exhausted & he needs to get back for midnight anyways. It's always been like this but it's been worse for the past year, in fact it was a lot worse as we're trying to run our own business.

I know some of you work really long hours & this may seem like nothing but the main thing is we barely have time for our relationship, and we truly have an amazing relationship that I don't want to loose.

One thing I've been thinking for a while is going into nursing (with more recently wanting to add radiography into that) so it looks like if I'm not too late to enroll I'll be going back to school in August. I'm so tired of my job. There isn't really room for advancement & the pay isn't that great. Plus I'm tired of SELL, SELL, SELL.. trying to convince people they need to buy products that they really don't need & I have definitely had enough of the copious amount of ass kissing that's involved. I'm like the least materialistic person ever. Why I got into this field is beyond me.

I looooove the idea of helping others. I tried to be a teacher but the time wasn't good & I was in a very bad relationship that made me feel incapable.

If somewhere during the path of this other new journey in my life I happen to get pregnant then that'd be absolutely amazing. We're definitely going to keep trying. Not sure what's happening this cycle I'm constantly clearing my mind of TWW thoughts, if I have another chem I don't want to know! I'm not trying to think about whether I'm pregnant or not, for this cycle ignorance shall be bliss! :shrug::happydance:

Luckily the pub is our home so I still have security and with me quitting my job that means I can also help out with getting the kitchen up & running which means more money for us. My OH has sooo much on his plate that he can't seem to be able to get it up & running on his own. So we're loosing out on nice profit.

So we shall see... My sister is visiting for a few weeks in July so it'll only happen after that.

And on that note, I definitely need to get going, our Open mic Night has started!! Ahhh!!!!!

Sorry for my sharing.. I know it was a long post, but if I can't share this with you ladies, then who else can I share it with?

:hug:


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## gingmg

Kits wow, big changes! I'm a nurse and would be happy to answer any of your questions. It is both rewarding and exhausting work, but i love it and cant really see myself doing anything different. My wife is starting school in sept for radiography. She has studied classical piano since she was a kid so its a big career change for her. She plays for the ballet and also teaches piano but as much as she loves music, its a hard life, unsteady pay ect. ect. so is changing careers completely. Sometimes, you just need a change.


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## BBbliss

Kits, I think it's a great idea! As I read your post I felt the decision is already made :) it's a great move into something more fulfilling and I also think it is important to be attentive and never take for granted a great relationship. If you are going to be happier all around, take the leap :)

And from what I've seen you are a very caring person so nursing will be good fit for you :)


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## Briss

*Kits*, I really like FF but I have not tried anything else. Mostly I used free FF and it was absolutely sufficient (they also give you free VIP for a few days every few months) but getting VIP is just little more entertaining cos you can see all your signs not just the main ones like temp/BD/CB/OPK. one thing I try to stay away from is browsing pregnancy charts. you get so drawn into this and start dreaming... 

I actually thought both of you worked at your pub, it's really hard to have another job when you already have one. I do not think one person can run the pub, can he? I do not really know much about pubs but it's probably 24 hour work? Nursing sounds wonderful but isn't it a shift work? will you manage nursing and pub work? 

afm, tried watching House M.D., another mistake with my negative mind I should not watch anything disease related ... love the main character though


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## Blythe

Kits - we spend most of our lives sleeping and working so get a bed you are comfortable in and a job you enjoy. Having said that, i have neither. Having the support/option of re-training is wonderful and if you are anything less than happy and challenged by your current work then my advice would be to do it. Briss has a very good point though re shift work and i would imagine there would be plenty of that throughout the training and first few years in the NHS.

It would be a dream for me to go back to college and retrain but we cannot support that between us. But i do love to hear and read about women retraining in their 30s/40s and beyond. I find it very inspiring.

Getting the kitchen off the ground would also be greati would love to mess around with menus and see what works. Now i imagine that would be very rewarding and with the added bonus of helping out your OH too.

Briss - i have recently watched Bridget Jones diary [first one] and reignited my passion for a young hugh grant. I do like posh dirty-minded english boys.although in the past, i have found the reality to be quite disappointing.

i had all my hair cut off last week. I walked home feeling like a young linda evangelista but DH said i looked like elaine pagehe was joking but it has stuck so now not so sure. Im having to ramp up the make up to compensate for the lack of hairalthough i do think i suit short hair much better than long hair so hoping i will warm to it this week. I felt like a big change and have also been going through my possessions and taking lots to the charity shop. I always hold onto books etc to remind me of certain times/trips etc but i got rid of some and felt better for it.

How are you feeling - are you feeling better than you were earlier this week?


----------



## Blythe

Kits - one thing i was going to say isdon't put stuff off because you are TTC. I have spend the last 3.5 years doing that and actually if it had of happened everything would have just changed to fit in with it. There is always a way of making stuff work!


----------



## kits

Got waxed, went to pilates & am now enjoying my smoothie. That's the most productive I've been to myself in a looong time.

Oooo! Cutting your hair off! I like it :D I think this is what we need some changes, life refresh. Linda Evangelista is very sexy, I love all the hair colours she'd go for. Did you happen to do any new colours? Hmmm.. not sure how much of an Elaine Paige fan you are but I absolutely love her. I think she's so cute & I'm such a sucker for anything she sings, so either woman sounds like a compliment to me, heh. :wink:

I am constantly adding blue, red & purple bits to my hair, or at least this past year I have. I had bright red fringe but it faded out when I took the photo on my chart page. I call the colour changes my mid life crisis mode (no kids yet). But I did it too much that it started going green in bits so the salon said no more, so I'm a dark burnette for the time being. I also have really long hair. I'm dying to cut it short but I can get acne (only for the past 2 years, :grr: )on my back so I don't. 

I never watched House Briss, but all the comments I ever heard is that it was really good & the main guy is an absolute psycho. Can't say it tickled my fancy very much. But then again I tend to watch more geeky stuff. The shows I tend to follow oth religiously or on & off are:

The Walking Dead (I love planning & joking about a zombie apolcalypse even though I don't exactly believe one will happen unless it happens in the form of I Am Legend)
The Originals
Agents of Shield (OH makes me, not that keen)
Friday Night Lights (it's about American High School Football)
Hollyoaks (if ever manange to catch it, twice this year)
Game of Thrones (only the first season)
Sex and the City (I feel like they're my best friends too!)
Made in Chelsea -> my guilty pleasure, I can't help it! I love how some of the women dress.
Star Trek :blush:
Mad Men (whenever I'm free & it's on)

I don't think you ladies will ever comprehend how geeky we really are :haha: 

What are you interested in most with TV shows? I wonder if I can recommend any.

Regarding FF in all honesty, I look at charts & they all seem japanese to me. Especially mine. Especially since I think my thermometer is pretty whack. However what I do do is go to the 'Charts like mine' bit & then if I see more pregnancy charts than ovulatory then I get slightly happier. If I see more ovulatory then I'm thinking maybe not this time.

I actually added Grapefruit Juice onto my chart because I saw you do it :blush:

Blythe! I don't think you will ever realise how encouraging your words can be. If you're ever feeling down just re-read what you write to others. My mom's cancer surgeon had been a teacher all her life & then probably about 15 years ago she decided she wanted to be a cancer doctor so she went for it. She must be way into her late 50's or early 60's & she's absolutely amazing. She works so hard for her patients. She actually sparked my interest, I originally wanted to go into Oncology nursing but after my own personal experiences I'm much more into the midwifery and ob/gyn, with the radiography. My cousin has also gone back to school now but I think she may just be working on her masters rather than changing careers, not sure but it is full time & if she can do it then so can I! Right? I hope so! It is a scarey thought.

The 3 years of full time study will be difficult but at least I'll be working towards something good. And in the long run I think shift work can go along the pub work better than an office job. I'm going to contact a few uni's tomorrow to see what is or isn't available so I may just have to wait a year or 6 months to start. But I'd still quit my job.

I've given my OH a year & I think he's fully aware that he can't get the pub to where it needs to be on it's own. Luckily we're doing pretty well without having put all effort in (with mainly just him) but we know it could do more. The community is dying for us to open up our kitchen too. I make food for people randomly for fun and it's always gotten good feedback especially since I try to share my favourite Texas foods :D

By the way, I've been meaning to ask this for a while now but what brand of pre-natal vitamins do y'all take? I'm currently on Pregnacare but I'm thinking of switching as it make my pee really bright yellow. Like fluorescent yellow.

Thanks ladies, you're always so awesome to me!!!

Loads & loads & loads of :hug:


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## kits

Just saw your 2nd post Blythe, I think you're totally right. I don't want to waste any more time for 'the right time' as nothing ever gets done. I just want us to be happy. Life is way too short, too many die unexpectedly without having been happy or at least achieved what they want.

So pub & uni life it is for me! Plus loads of BD'ing! Going to take 2 weeks off while my sis is here & then say goodbye!

I've also been putting our wedding off due to ttc for so long now & it's not fair for either of us. I think May 22 2015 sounds like a good date. Whether I'm pregnant or not, full of baby fat or not.. I think we should aim for that.

Much love :kiss:


----------



## kits

gingmg said:


> Kits wow, big changes! I'm a nurse and would be happy to answer any of your questions. It is both rewarding and exhausting work, but i love it and cant really see myself doing anything different. My wife is starting school in sept for radiography. She has studied classical piano since she was a kid so its a big career change for her. She plays for the ballet and also teaches piano but as much as she loves music, its a hard life, unsteady pay ect. ect. so is changing careers completely. Sometimes, you just need a change.

I just may hold you to that & pick your brains at some point! What type of nursing do you do?

Thank you!!!


----------



## kits

Oh!!! I also forgot to say I love Mr. Darcy. I sooo have a crush on Collin Firth. Not too keen on Daniel Cleever, hehe. I love it when Mr. Darcy tried to beat up Daniel Cleever in the water fountain (i think it's the 2nd film)

I love those type of films, Bridget Jones, Love Actually...

I need a movie night with all of those. I can't wait until Christmas!


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## Briss

*Blythe*, I never fancied hugh grant actually, I do not know why. he is cute though. Love Bridget Jones diary! I've heard they are making 3rd movie? 

It's so good that you had your hair cut!! so refreshing. I do it from time to time and always feel so good, like a new beginning :) My hair do not look that good so i have been considering cutting them but then I really want to grow them long. it suits me but only when my hair look healthy which is never :(

*Kits*, I love Sex and the City! watched it so many times I probably know it by heart by now :) I watch Big bang theory, one of the characters reminds me of my DH...

I am taking pregnacare conception before O and just normal pregnacare after O.


----------



## gingmg

Kit- I take care of kids in an intensive care unit. Quite busy and faced paced, but not all nursing needs to be. I used to work on a pediatric oncology and bone marrow transplant floor. Ask away anytime.


----------



## kits

:grr: I totally forgot about pineapple core this cycle! I was so busy feeling sorry for myself that I forgot to eat some :grr:

Kicking myself for forgetting. I quickly ran to co-op when I remembered today because everything else is shut but I think it's too late. And it was mainly the meat too..

I'm going to get some tomorrow just in case but I seriously can't believe I forgot!


----------



## Breaking Dawn

Hi ladies
I've been following along...

Kits I'm so excited for you and your new career journey. That is great and exciting thing to do.

Blythe - i love love that you cut your hair. I hope one day I have the guts to do that. I've done a bob...and I cried after. lol 

Briss...i get so addicted to TV series when I'm watching them.

I love...walking dead...downton abbey..true blood...game of thrones.


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## alison29

My mom suggested downtown abby to me. She knows I like the british shows like Doc Martin. I watched all 37 shows. I am going to watch downtown abby tonight. I am thru Bates Motel already.

Blythe and Breaking:I cut mine to a short bob where the top was like 3 inches long it was BAD! My dh was horrified. Surprise! My hair turned out in all these funki ways because it was too short to lay flat. My sister inlaw rocks the short hair cut just goes to show every hair type is so different. 

My dh started the clomid last night. I am sure his drive is going to go thru the roof soon. hopefully i can keep up with it :haha:


----------



## Briss

I love downton abbey and Doc Martin. Mr Selfridge is also a good one. I got drawn to house md, I seem to really like obsessed and miserable people  Bates Motel is next on my list. 

I completely ruined my sugar free week days, just cant do it and obviously weight is going up and my tummy looks so pregnant! apparently I got some serious bruising on my left zegong from the needles last week and I did not even notice cos it was on the side of my tummy which I cant really see!!! how horrible is this? I can only see it in the mirror and so DH pointed out to the bruising. 

I had a dream last night that I was stuffing myself with delicious pastries and was getting noticeably fatter with every piece and still could not stop myself 

I am under a lot of stress at work and do not really sleep that well


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## alison29

I hate myself for it i have been allowing myself treats too. I gained weight doing low carb.


----------



## Irish_eyes

Blythe - thanks for your thoughts on determining CD1. I would spot then red flow with BM and then back to spotting and that's the confusing thing. But after speaking to some close friends they said exactly what you said. So with that I think I am a couple of days ahead with this cycle. 

BBbliss - so sorry to hear of your loss. 

Briss - hope you're feeling better x

Kits - I think you should do what feels best for you. My sister worked as a personal secretary most of her working days and just recently left work and has just finished her first year in nursing course. She always wanted to do it but she raised her kids first and she's 44. So it's never too late to change career. 

At the moment I am just taking Folic acid as I don't have any Pregnacare left.

I've been catching up with TV series on Netflix particularly the ones DH doesn't want to watch. I am currently watching Grimm....oh my David Giuntoli is gorgeous! Anyway, other shows I watch are The Vampire Dairies, True Blood, The Originals, Ravenswood, Pretty Little Liars, American Horror Story, Walking Dead, Di Vinci's Demons etc. Gosh I am such a geek! 

I had such a thing for Colin Firth back when Bridget Jones first came out. I just love Mr Darcy! I heard that there is the third book but Mark Darcy is dead! Sure he makes the books!! That is so silly! 

So tonight I had my 4th acu session and I am getting more and more relaxed during them. I was nearly sleeping tonight. I think DH is slowly accepting I am doing this twice a week whether he likes it or not so the friction isn't has bad as last week. 

I never really have a big conversation with my acu Dr. He basically takes me in and starts treatment, I come out, pay and go. But I hear other drs recommending what to eat, looking at their charts etc and I am thinking am I missing out on something. 

So much for diet anyway. I have been so bad this week, eating too much rubbish. I have heard a gluten free diet is good. Have any of you tried that? It's so hard! 

What other supplements beside prenatals do you all take?


----------



## Briss

*Irish_eyes*, chinese docs usually start by looking at your tongue and checking your pulse and then proceed to treatment. my current doc is English so we can have a conversation and he answers my numerous questions. chinese docs were not really giving me much info cos English was an issue.

My current list:
Pregnacare Conception 
600 COQ10 /300 Ubiquinol (egg quality)
2,000 Fish oils 
1,000 Vitamin C (after O to improve progesterone levels)
200 Vitamin E (egg quality)
10,000 Vitamin D (once a week)
100 Vitamin B complex (help with pre AF spotting)
2,000 Myo-inositol (egg quality, balance insulin) - not talking this cycle 
25 Zinc (4-5 days before AF)
50 selenium (4-5 days before AF)
2,000 EPO (before O) (delay O, increase EWCM) - not taking this cycle
liquid iron supps (iron deficiency)


----------



## Irish_eyes

Briss he did all that at my consultation at my first appt but have to admit I found it hard to understand him. I'll see how I go because I suppose at the end if the day he really knows what he is doing and if it helps...great. 

Wow that is a lot of supplements. I have been looking into co10q for a while but like everything else it's expensive for the recommended dose. Do you alternate between the co10q and ubiquionol? I know they are the same thing but something to do with absorption.


----------



## Briss

*Irish_eyes*, I think they usually check tongue/pulse every time they see you cos it's changing (hopefully because the treatment is working). Although my tongue is consistently red &#8211; sign of heat.

coq10 seems to be the most important one for our age group so if you think of taking only one other supp it has to be coq10. I personally do not think there is a lot of difference between co10q and ubiquionol, it's just that you need higher dose of coq10 to achieve the same thing. ubiquionol is supposed to be absorbed easier but I read that if you take coq10 with vitamin E you will achieve the same result. I've been sticking to coq10 but most recently switched to ubiquionol after reading a book on egg quality. also I found a brand that's the same price as for coq10 but at the moment I use both cos I still have some coq10 left. 

My current brands:

ubiquionol - https://www.amazon.co.uk/Jarrow-For...=1401869368&sr=8-14-spell&keywords=ubiquionol 40 days supply costs about 34 pounds

coq10 - https://www.naturesbest.co.uk/co-q10-200mg-p730/


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## Blythe

Briss - your chart certainly looks very good and hopefully that means the acu/herbs are doing their thing. Nice steady temps.


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## Briss

*Blythe*, I agree! I think this is the best chart temp wise I've had so far. I am obviously adjusting a bit cos I do not wake up at the same time every day but not a lot really so I do think Dr E is onto something with his treatment. Obviously one good cycle is not enough to make conclusions but so far so good. I am so hoping it's also doing something to reduce my FSH levels


----------



## alison29

I am doing gluten free. It is hard at first. I found gluten free breads and stuff delicious BUT then i realized they all of soy which is also an allergen so should not eat..Basically most things in a package are out. I have been eating salted rice cakes and some nuts for snacks. I almost starved to death at family party my BIL even put gluten in the hamburgers in the form of ranch dressing packet! I mean the buns were a no brainer but you had to F up the burgers with MSG gluten flavoring ugh.. ITs hard to eat with others or out at restaurants.


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## alison29

When is your IVF Blythe?


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## Irish_eyes

Briss - thanks for the info and those links. I think I will look into the Ubiquinol one as you don't have to take so many. I sort of gag when I am trying to take all my supplements. What book is that you read on egg quality? 

I do think that egg quality could be my issue even though I have never been told that but after my poor response to IVF I think it may be just that. I only got two eggs, both fertilised but were only 4 cell at 3dpt. I was told that one was mature and would never have achieved a pregnancy. I also read somewhere that the quality of the embryo has to do the with egg and not sperm. Could be wrong but it sort of stuck in my head though. I have Vit C melt down tablets...I also turn on drinking that, its rotten but I might use it after O if it helps with progesterone levels. Again, I have never been told I have problems there but I heard if you spot then its something to do with your progesterone. No harm in trying anyway. 

Pineapple core? I ate this after my IVF but am I right in saying that you can't take the pineapple juice? I was going to make a smoothie with the whole pineapple (well split into fifths).


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## Irish_eyes

I am not sure how quickly acupuncture and herbs kick in but I have already noticed something different to my cycle this month. 

I have been using my CBFM this month and normally I would get a run of highs before getting a peak. I have on occasions not seen a peak either. But I got a few lows this month then two highs. I thought I would have had more highs but the next day I got a peak. So quite shocked at that but it could have been just the monitor rather than the acu.


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## Irish_eyes

Briss said:


> *Irish_eyes*
> 
> ubiquionol - https://www.amazon.co.uk/Jarrow-For...=1401869368&sr=8-14-spell&keywords=ubiquionol 40 days supply costs about 34 pounds

Have you noticed this has been reduced to £30? :winkwink:


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## Jazzbird

Hi Gals

Still reading your updates and really thinking the acu is working! I think lots of cbfm highs aren't necessarily a good thing ... And I'm encouraged by your chart change Briss. 

Strictly speaking I think you have to give acu/ herbs a good few months for it to work but it is very effective for menstrual probs (provided you have right diagnosis and good quality treatment) - so I think changes should be apparent sooner than a few months. When I started with acu for fertility my temps were generally low, long follicular phase, very slow to rise in luteal phase and generally long. Within 2 months my ovulation date had moved from cd21 to around cd14/15. My charts were clearly biphasic and temp rise was much more marked over 1 or 2 days. 

Obviously my cycles varied before I had acu so can't claim 100% that it was all down to chinese medicine. But I really believe in it and think it is the best option for male and female infertility - even if it just gets your foot in the door of the ivf clinic. 

Dr E sounds fantastic Briss - he has great credentials and I like the way he is treating you - cost effective and only doing what is necessary. I think if you are being asked to spend loads of money - it's not right. This is not how acupuncturists are trained in uk. We are trained to get best results with minimal intervention.

Keeping my fingers crossed for you lovely ladies. You deserve it. Xxx


----------



## Briss

*alison*, I agree soy is not the best thing for TTC. Eating with others can be a nightmare when you are trying to be careful about what you eat and yet not to offend anyone or be difficult. no easy solution I am afraid. I noticed that even though I am back to eating sugars, I eat much less of this stuff and do not feel like I cant live without it. I do rely heavily on nuts/dried fruit though. My weight is more or less stable but I have about 3 extra kg. I can live with that

*Irish_eyes*, you do not need to take 300 of Ubiquinol , you can start with lower dose just to see how your body responds (I think a few people reported some side effects although I did not feel any different). The book was called it starts with an egg. she does explain about supps and diet, most of it we know already but there were a few interesting things like royal jelly is apparently useless and arginine is plain harmful. I think egg quality is an issue for most 35+. The quality of the embryo is to do with both egg and sperm. In our case it was most likely sperm issue that's why we want to do IMSi rather than just ICSI next time. I've been trying to figure out the reason for pre AF spotting for some time but it's tricky. My progesterone was quite high so it could not be progesterone issue. It could be down to thyroid or vit b deficiency or something totally different. Really hard to say. Pineapple core is better than meat or juice cos it has more of an enzyme called bromelain which is supposed to help implantation. 

*Jazzbird*, nice to hear from you. How are you doing? I am very happy with my chart this cycle. very steady temps so far + later O. 

*kits*, did you get a positive OPK? it sounds very promising, good luck with testing! 

*Blythe*, how are you doing?


----------



## Blythe

Briss - I'm ok and have been stalking your chart. It looks so healthy and i feel your time will be coming very very soon :flower:

i am bursting with things to tell you. I have been keeping a diary of this IVF and will post when it is finished - each day brings something new to stress about and i fear if i articulate them all i will not be able to move forward. I am just keeping my head down and cracking on with it.


----------



## Briss

*Blythe*, I think this is a very good strategy. I usually apply it for work matters but somehow completely unable to do that in TTC. Diary &#8211; great idea! I should do that as well. I sometimes write very long posts cos I need to get this stuff out but then never post it. This process is so tough but I feel very positive about your chances. Are you still sticking with regular acu? I trust Dr E more and more and consider having acu with him during IVF.


----------



## Blythe

I am doing both acu and herbs throughout stims and i feel comfortable with both. Never thought i would do the latter but i think it is helping - she was rather insistent that the herbs would really help me - i believe they have.


----------



## alison29

I think you should try different things too. If one cycle did not produce results why not change it up the next time. It's banging your head against a wall doing the same thing and expecting different results. I love it when a practioner says for sure that something will help feels right doing it. Good luck :)


----------



## Briss

Blythe, that's fantastic. I also had doubts about herbs and IVF but I guess it all depends on your treatment and your doc. I will talk about herbs/IVF with Dr E next time cos I am actually quite comfortable with his herbs. I am keeping my fingers crossed for you.


----------



## Jazzbird

Briss - I'm well thanks. So glad to see later ov and nice steady temp rise for you. Hoping you do get a good fsh reading soon.

Blythe - looking forwards to reading your ivf diary. Really praying this brings the BFP you so deserve. 

Hi to the other ladies


----------



## kits

Can't wait to read your diary Blythe!

Love your progress Briss!

Hi ladies, sending :hug: love, luck & loads & loads of :dust:


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## gingmg

Blythe- cheering you on and rooting for you from the side lines. That actually goes for everyone here.:)


----------



## Blythe

Briss - sorry for stupid AF. I loved your chart this month - it is the best i remember seeing your chart.

Everything is heading the right direction. Is DH due a sperm analysis soon? I cannot remember how long he has been having the treatment. 

anyhow, i am thinking of you and hope you are ok :flower:


----------



## Briss

*Blythe*, thanks. yesterday I was just too depressed and angry to say anything, I did not feel this bad before, suddenly I just felt like I cant be miserable on my own anymore I have enough misery to share with many people and I wanted to do something violent to make smb else suffer for a change, than just to be on receiving end all the time. I knew this would pass so I just went out and cried it all out for a few hours, could not care less about people staring at me. I know I should be grateful for having a good cycle, very little pre AF spotting, my results are OK but nothing matters cos I am not pregnant and I will be 38 soon. I think at some point endorphins kicked in from the walking exercise and I started feeling a bit better, went home and made dinner. still pretty upset though... the usual

got my results back, it's good news for me and bad new for DH. 6 months of hormonal treatment and very little alcohol and his results are actually worse than before. WTF!!! count is below 5 million and morphology 1%. no wonder I am not getting pregnant, we do not stand a chance. I do not know how he is going to motivate himself to carry on without alcohol when it did not make any difference. I can try and get him to take vitamins blaming his poor results on the fact he has not been taking any but deep down I know it was not the issue.

My results are OK, FSH got down to 11.8!! so it was worth it playing with the private blood tests and waiting for a bit longer before doing the real thing, my estrogen went up a bit more on that day and suppressed FSH even further so I am now officially below the threshold of 12.5. 

My AMH is 13.41 &#8211; the highest I have seen (not surprisingly considering the amounts of Vit D I was taking, about 10,000 daily for a few days before taking the test). it may not be accurate but at least I feel we have a chance to get IVF funding now. 

My TSH also got down to 3.08 from 3.78, not ideal but at least it's fluctuating rather than just going up. It's still higher than they like but maybe my spotting was not related to thyroid?

The only problem is the MCHC is quite low which may indicate iron deficiency or anaemia. I guess I need to start taking more iron this cycle. I would still like to repeat my FSH this cycle to see what's going on and check my estrogen in case I have a cyst. 

we cant TTC this cycle cos I am supposed to have an HSG type test to check my uterus and cervix. begging DH to take me abroad for a week to get me through my birthday


----------



## Jazzbird

Briss - great news on FSH and pre- AF spotting. It's Dr E - I swear . Can you persuade OH to go to him? My friends OH had poor count and 0% morph - they were advised to have ICSI. He took 3 months of herbs (no acu) and his morph went up to 5% and count went up. Honestly, there is so much evidence for herbs and male infertility. It's worth a shot?

I'm sorry though that another cycle brings another disappointment. I think you are on the right track - it is a matter of time and getting your foot through the ivf door.

Praying for you Briss. Xxx


----------



## alison29

WTF with your husband? What did is uro say about this? I am sorry that is really disappointing. I am really happy about your progress though. What do they suggest to do now, can you do icsi?


----------



## Briss

*Jazzbird*, I feel very positive about Dr E, I booked my FSH this week so we will see what my levels are this cycle. I want to show the herbs DH was previously on to Dr E to ask for his opinion. DH will not go to a TCM doctor, unfortunately the experience with Dr Zhai put him off for good. I am confident in our urologist, he has an excellent reputation in the UK and even globally so I do believe DH is getting the best medical attention it's just that something is not working and maybe it's not treatable. 

*alison*, I am disappointed for my DH cos he has been really good, he took his medicine and stayed away from beer most of the time, he did not do excessive exercise (it's not recommended as it increases body temp and damages sperm), no extreme dieting, we had plenty of DB so his sperm was supposed to be constantly refreshed &#8211; is said to improve quality. the only thing he was not taking his vitamins regularly but compare to alcohol it should not really be a significant issue. I was expecting his count to go up to at least 15-20 mil not go down to 5. ICSI is our only option, I am even going to ask for IMSI. still cant understand it the meds made DH produce more testosterone but if his testosterone increased why his body is not using it to make more sperm? he is not doing body building or anything so where is it all going?


----------



## Blythe

Briss - what a huge blow that will be for your DH. i wonder what his urologist will make of this....has he had a debrief appt with him yet?

I'm so sorry you were crying...it makes me sad to read that. Its so darn heartbreaking and you have been doing this for so long. Im so pleased to read your stats....amazing that they AMH has changed so much and I'm so happy to see that you are now in safe zone for IVF on the NHS.

it is not a matter of if - it is just a matter of when :flower:


----------



## melly2

Briss: Hi There. I'm so sorry to hear of DH's poor results. Have they been checking his FSH level as well? That's a very important hormone in sperm production. They put my DH on Clomid to increase his FSH levels, which was somewhat of a factor.


----------



## alison29

UGh that sucks. About your birthday, you still have plenty of time I just had mine also in May. My dh also likes his beer and he also likes p*t. Sperm count aside how about they don't do it because it's bad for your regardless of what it has done to your counts. My dh is 42 he has cleaned up his act ALOT but not squeaky yet by anymeans. It is so strange that your dh has higher drive so the drugs are working? Was he taking clomid or soemthing else? Mine has been taking some fertiliaid a friend gave me for men (once she got knocked up) for a while now. SO not much else i can do for him other then the clomid.


----------



## alison29

Melly how much clomid and for how long was your dh on it?


----------



## Briss

*Blythe*, thanks! I always look forward to your posts, you are so encouraging. it's hard getting bad news all the time, and whatever i try I get a negative result. Today I am OK and able to deal with it but yesterday it was like a new low for me, I did not know I could be so aggressive (in my thoughts rather than actions but it's a matter of time). getting bad SA results kind of explains why nothing happened, I have to say I was getting my hopes up cos DH's sex drive is so improved I was sure his SA must be better so we may even have a chance at natural conception, obviously no such thing. DH is due to have a call with the urologist to we may get some answers. 

*melly*, you are right, the outcome of the treatment is increase in both testosterone and a slight increase in FSH but testosterone was more important (at least that's what we were told)

*alison*, my DH is on tamoxifen, it's similar to clomid but not as aggressive. My DH put his social life on hold and career as well cos drinks with boss/colleagues is a must and he is not doing it. the only reason he has done it is because he could see my despair but obviously also because I threatened to divorce him and go donor sperm route. I cant even imagine how he feels now


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## alison29

My dh receivd flack from one of his professional groups for not wanting to crack beers at 4 in the afternoon. Um hello that is just sad! They bought him his special beer but still. I know it is usual though. He is taking an exercise class twice a week which keeps him more on the straigth and narrow those nights. I am so glad my work is not like that i would hate to have to socialize after work it would feel like more work. ITs hard enough being gluten free and avoiding baked goods gatherings at work, i don't think alot of people understand what gluten is or how it can cause silent damage.


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## Briss

I had my follow up acu session today. Dr E was pleased with my chart &#8211; it's perfect apparently (don't I know it!). basically things are moving in the right direction so we carry on with the same herbs. apparently my day 3 FSH is an indication of how well my ovaries worked the previous cycle so I am hoping to see some reduction in FSH levels tomorrow (obviously if I have a cyst that will screw things up). He looked at the herbs for DH that my previous doc suggested but said it's impossible to recommend these ready made formulas. Basically similar to what Dr Zhai said. there is no such thing as herbs for sperm cos it all depends on the person's condition, deficiencies etc. he also said that particular formula would be too weak for my DH anyway. as things stand it's ICSI/IMSI situation. 

This cycle is going to be wasted on more tests for the IVF clinic. I wonder if we can start the next cycle or is it also going to be wasted waiting for them to make a decision. I also hate to do these things in summer when most doctors are away on holidays.


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## Irish_eyes

Oh Briss really sorry you were so upset the other day and hope you are doing ok at the moment. Also sorry to hear about your DH's results but happy that your cycle is improving. Can I ask why you are not eligible at the moment for IVF on the NHS? What is IMSI?


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## Briss

*Irish_eyes*, thanks. I am doing OK today. it's all down to my FSH, it is apparently too high so there is a risk I will not respond to stim meds and the cycle fails so they do not want to waste money on smb like me who may not be successful. I completely resent that. there only thing I could do is to show that my FSh is not an indicator of low egg reserve so I may still have some left for stims. luckily my acu doc is with me on this one and also thinks my high FSH is not necessarily related to the number of eggs. having said that, my right ovary has a cyst and is not functioning normally, most times I ovulated from my left ovary and the right one has no more than 1-3 follicles. anyhow FSH was the only formal requirement that I could not satisfy for the NHS funding and I am hoping my latest results will be acceptable to them but cant be sure. basically just more and more waiting for me. although having seen my DH's recent SA, I think I am prepared to self fund, definitely do not want to put it off for longer 

DH is really upset, I can tell cos he does not even want to discuss this. it hit him pretty bad. between us we were joking about his count going up to 100 million judging by his sex drive so I really did not see it coming. Dr E said, there cannot be a natural conception with such low numbers&#8230; 

IMSI is a new technique for sperm selection for ICSI https://www.nhs.uk/news/2008/07July/Pages/NewIVFtechnique.aspx basically they are just able to look more closely at sperm and select the best candidates. still it's just about morphology cos they are selecting best looking sperm, they cant really tell whether the sperm is chromosomally normal so there is no guarantee. when morphology is low IMSI is just offering a slightly better chances


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## Jazzbird

Briss I am so sorry your OH won't talk about things but I am very happy that Dr E has described your cycle as perfect!! He really sounds like he knows what he is doing. It can be so hit and miss with acupuncturists but I know that when the diagnosis and treatment is right - it can and does work. I have seen quite a few over the last several years and there are only 2 that I would go back to. I wish your OH would see him, I know there are never any guarantees, but I think you have the best chance to make a difference with Dr E.

But we should celebrate your statistics, and your chart. This is really positive Briss and proof that fertility is not set in stone and responds dynamically to treatment. So many ladies get written off with a few test results. I remember reading on my fertility acupuncturist's wall a letter from a lady who had been diagnosed with poor egg quality and several IVF failed attempts. She had had acupuncture for 6 months and conceived on her next round of IVF, with the hospital saying that she had excellent eggs. Not sure how they measured it, but it was lovely to read.


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## melly2

Allison: I don't recall how much Clomid he took. It was basically one pill a day. It some improvement on his counts, but not enough to make a difference.


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## kits

Hey Briss, really sorry to hear about your hubby's news, he must be so devastated. Bless him. :flower:

I'm sorry if my fertility ignorance is coming through, but is there any chance in the slightest that all the bd'ing has influenced his levels?

I'm so happy your chart really looked so nice & healthy, but I'm crushed you & your hubby are going through.

Praying for you hun & if you ever wanna chat I'm on what's app & all those apps. Don't ever feel like your alone hun. :hugs:

Sending lots of love to all of you.


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## Briss

Thank you, ladies for your support! our urologist said that at this stage he is not expecting any further improvement as it's been 6 months&#8230; I do not even know where we go from here to be honest. I guess FS was right and there was nothing we could have done to improve his SA. Just wasted time. looks like it's ICSI/IMSI. 

Dr E said he is not an expert on male side of things but there are other acupuncturists that may help. unfortunately it's out of the question with DH. He would not even take vitamins now. It's all pretty devastating 

I have heard so many stories of various fertility related miracles, even today I was told about a woman who had 8 failed IVFs and got pregnant the very next cycle naturally while on holiday. It's all great, just a shame I have not seen this happen to me&#8230; 

Vits, often BD will reduce the count but supposed to improve the quality. he did his SA after 3 days of abstinence so it should have been sufficient


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## Briss

just got my today's FSH results and they are pretty depressing to say the least. oestrogen is really high at 360 and possibly indicative of an ovarian cyst but most terribly despite such high oestrogen my FSh is still very high at 14.5 (taking into account that high oestrogen is supressing FSH, my true FSH is even higher)

I am struggling to understand these results, I had such a great cycle and my FSh was supposed to be lower not higher. all I can say is it's very lucky we went for the test at IVF clinic last month and did not wait.


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## alison29

how confusing


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## Blythe

Briss - i saw your new FSH of 14.5. Was this taken by the NHS or did you do it privately? How long was there between the 11.8 and the 14.5 result?

As Jazzbird said you appear to be responding very well to your treatment and i believe this will help so much in achieving your dreams. I cannot imagine the disappointment your DH is feeling with these results after such dedicated commitment. it just makes no sense that his sex drive has gone through the roof yet the numbers don't reflect this. Was his urologist very adamant about natural conception with his results or was that Dr E that said that?

Is IMSI treatment cheaper in Germany? I have read that some clinics can work with clinics over here re monitoring so perhaps it would not be too disruptive.

Briss - you are in my thoughts everyday and i wish only the very best for you :flower:


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## Blythe

Kits - how are you? i see you have a nice little temp rise there? Have you thought anymore about leaving your job?

:hugs:


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## kits

I wonder if this may be anything to do with the vitamins you take. I remember you mentioning that you're taking extra vit D to force different results.

Again, mega ignorant here but maybe it's time to re-jig your intake? Something isn't adding up. 

I hope Dr. E can help shed a bit of light onto this.

Take care, loads of hugs everyone!


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## kits

Blythe :flower:

My chart is driving me mental, I think it's because I've started spinning properly this month. So much so that I'm going to a new acupuncturist tomorrow morning.

No idea if I ovulated or what my temp spike means! Will probably get another bfn in a few mins. :grr:

Yes, I am slowly getting closer to quitting. My sis will be here June 30th, so it'll probably be just after she leaves. However, if I'm not pregnant then I think I may take a cycle break break so I can push real hard to quit now & get the kitchen sorted with a more aggressive attitude so it's all sorted.

I'm going to play in the pub kitchen this Saturday with the England match, going to serve buffalo wings & pulled pork sandwiches. I've made both before for a small super bowl party, now we'll see if the rest of the town like them!

Still really looking forward to your journal hun :D

Praying for all of us!


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## kits

Yep, another bfn.:growlmad:

A lady mentioned that I may genuinely have O'd on my cd24. May be... I had a ton of creamy cm today, much more than usual. My boobs really hurt yesterday.

Funny thing is, cd13 I had +opk on brand A, just a high surge on brand B. On cd24 I got neg opk on brand A, +opk on brand B.

Who knows? :shrug: I give up!

Last time I had a chemical, the following cycle lasted an extra 3 weeks & it threw my hormones all over the place. It was so difficult for me, I'm really hoping that doesn't happen again :wacko:

Can't wait for my ACU tomorrow morning.


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## Briss

*Blythe*, I have taken my FSH 4 times! crazy I know but it was worth it cos I can see how it work together with estogen and cycle day. I now know that for me personally the best day to do FSH test is CD4 as my estogen is quite high (but not too high to make the test invalid) and it suppresses my FSH to what seem like the lowest level in that cycle. My results were:

FSH Last cycle:

CD2 16 (E70) &#8211; private 
CD4 (am) 13 (E 250) - private
CD4 (pm) 11.8 (E 280) - NHS

FSH This cycle:

CD4 14.5 (E340) &#8211; private

I do believe I had a cyst last cycle (E340 is just too high for CD4) so it will probably disappear with my next period so maybe that's just messing with my FSH this cycle and I can see improvement next month? 

DH is taking it so much harder than I expected. it makes me feel so terribly upset to see him like this. Dr E said with this result natural conception is impossible but he also said one test is not enough to make conclusions that there was no improvement as SA varies a lot from week to week. the urologist just said that it is not going to get better with this treatment as optimal results are usually seen within 6 months. I am trying to get DH to carry with the vitamins but it's going so hard cos he really cant see any point. I am trying to come up with various lies why this result is just not accurate so I could get his motivation back but deep down we are so disappointed, one more avenue explored and failed as everything else &#8230; 

DH does not any more appointments but I really think we should go and ask questions, clearly his testosterone has increased so why it is not being used by his body to produce sperm? I need to understand that. 

Blythe, I am hoping your cycle is going well and really look forward to hearing your good news. 

*kits*, sorry about bfn but maybe you just ovulated later, it's so frustrating when your cycle does not make sense. I am hoping acu can help get your cycles sorted. 

there is a correlation between your Vit D levels and AMH. sometimes ladies were getting false AMH results simply because they were vit D deficient. once they corrected the deficiency with vit D supplements their AMH seemed to have increased. I do not have vit D deficiency but I just figured some extra vit D may push my AMh a little up. I am still not 100% it worked because my previous AMH results were done abroad and on a different scale so I have to use a formular to convert them but who knows maybe this conversion was just not accurate and my AHM levels were higher than I thought.


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## Blythe

They collected 14 eggs yesterday but i just got a call and none fertilised.

the embryologist was saying stuff on the phone but i just could not understand any of it although she did say it is possible that they were over mature. They stimmed me for 12 days on 450 gonal f and i believe that they left me too long - i kept calling them back on friday saying i wanted a monday ET but they said i would be better for a weds one. They did not take any bloods at all throughout the cycle nor scan me for 5 days at the end. 

i am totally devastated


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## alison29

UGH I am so sorry WTF! That was total incompetence on their part. Giant hug over the internet all the way from Florida.


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## kits

Blythe!!! I'm, so, so, sooo sorry. You poor thing, so heartbroken for you. :hug:

What the hell is wrong with these doctors?! Is this a private practice or NHS?


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## Briss

Blythe, I am devastated for you. I hate these clinics, why cant they do anything right! 14 eggs!!!!! &#8211; this is amazing result, not surprisingly considering your stats, but absolutely phenomenal. why did they need to over stim you?? bloody idiots!! was it IVF or ICSI? I think they are still going to observe your eggs for a day or two they may still fertilise 

12 days on 450 gonal f - obviously too long on such high dose it could easily compromise the egg quality but for some this is the only way to get more than 1 egg. but 14 eggs! still cant believe it &#8211; excellent result, I am just heartbroken they ruined it for you. I totally blame the clinic but I know this is hardly helpful. I am upset for you cos IVF should have worked for you, you are responding well and producing good results, with proper management you could have had (and still can!) a successful cycle. 

any chance you can get any money back? I know this is probably not what you want to hear but I'd try to find funds and do it again in 2-3 months with a different clinic. it's just a question of getting the right protocol (it does look like short protocol works for you) and proper cycle management for it to be successful.


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## gingmg

Blythe I am sooooo sorry to read your update. I blame the clinic as well. 14 eggs is outstanding!! You should have been more closely monitored at the end to prevent over maturation. I am so sorry. Hugs to you! Do something nice for yourself. This is not the end of the road, but a painful detour.


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## melly2

Blythe: Ugh...that sucks. I'm so sorry to read this. I do agree with everyone else, you should have been monitored a lot more. 14 eggs is a great result, so you definitely had it in you. I'm so sorry.


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## BBbliss

Blythe, I'm so sorry you just had this horrible experience, I agree that you should have been monitored more carefully. I had bloods every day and scans almost almost every day. This is so heartbreaking with 14 eggs and nothing. I really feel for you Blythe I wish I could give a real hug right now. Take time to heal your body and know that this is not the end, better will come <3

Briss, so sorry for your DH's results, I hope he doesn't give up and at least goes back to supplements and herbs. It worked for us and DF still takes them, we talked about doing another SA to see where we stand now. I still need to congratulate you on your improved stats, it's really amazing what you've done and I hope it's what you needed to get your treatment approved. 

Kits, sorry you've been having a hard time with your cycle, what a bummer, I'm sure you just want AF to put an end to it so you can start over.


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## Blythe

thank you ladies. still quite messed up but know this will pass as these hormones leave my system and my insides stop cramping from the EC. i awoke yesterday with such hope but i know tomorrow will be a better day. i looked at myself yesterday in the mirror and saw what TTC has done to me these last few years. i look like i have been in an abusive relationship. I'm battered and overweight and unfit. 

Im afraid this really was our one shot with IVF and extra funds for another round is not an option. So unless they offer me a free round on monday when i see the embryologist/consultant no more treatments. i am only going so i can check to see if natural conception is even a remote possibility for us now and why the fuck didn't they try and rescue it with ICSI then i can put a big line under it all. Then i want nothing more to do with the place.

i have 3 months worth of clomid in my cupboard and am thinking of taking that along with my Chinese herbs for next 3 months with a break in between.

Kits - i self funded in a NHS clinic.

Briss - i noted my stats below. Once i had done EC the embryologist came round and went through the sperm sample and eggs and said she thought IVF was best option and no need for ICSI. 

IVF STATS [both 42 y/o]

ME

Day 3 Bloods [taken 5 months prior to starting IVF]
FSH 7.2 IU/L
LH 8.0 IU/L
OESTRADIOL 259 pmol/L

AMH: [taken 1 year prior to starting IVF]
6.4 pmol/L

Baseline AFC:
AFC: 13 [6L/7R]
1 x 1.2cm cyst on left ovary [no bloods taken to determine type]

Meds:
450 iu Gonal f [CD 2 to CD 13]
Cetrotide [CD 6 to CD 14]
Ovitrelle to trigger

DH

SC: Taken 5 months prior to starting IVF
Count: 18m [after wash expects it to be 12 m]
Motility: 70 %
Morph: 6%

EC day:
Count: 17m
Motility: 80 %
Morph: 7%

IVF SCAN STATS

CD2 - Baseline
13 follies

[CD9 8th day of stims]  follies over 10mm
L: 10 = 10.7, 12.5, 15.2, 13.4, 12.6, 11.0, 11.6, 13.2, 12.3
R: 6 = 15.6, 13.2, 17.5, 11.1, 14.4
= 14 follies
Lining: very good

[CD11 10th day of stims]  Follies over 10mm
10 [x 3], 11 [x 4], 12 [x 4], 13 [x 3], 14 [x 5], 15 [x 5], 16, 17 [x 2], 19 [x 2], 20
= 30 follies [This is what the chart said although nurse said 18 good looking follies] 
Lining: very good

EGG COLLECTION DAY [CD 16]
14 [11 mature]

EC + 1
No fertilization took place.


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## Briss

Blythe, your DHs SA is good so I can see why they went with IVF (I'd also want IVF if that was an option cos less invasive) but still considering age/eggs (and the fact that you only had one shot at it) they should have split the eggs into IVF/ICSI groups just to be on the safe side. the eggs are prepared differently so IVF eggs cannot be used for ICSI and vice versa. For ICSI they remove the layer from the egg but once that's done I was told they cannot be fertilised naturally with IVF. 

am so very angry with your clinic, they all approach this as if you have endless reserves of funds and health to go through multiple attempts until they figure out what works for you. I'd do some reading and try to find arguments in your favour so they would offer some refund cos something went wrong in the lab and/or stimming was not supervised etc but from my previous cycle I know all too well that they can always justify whatever wrong they've done (I was offered 500 off my next treatment - ridiculous considering we spent over 11K). still 14 eggs! this does not happen often (although I have come across these situations on other boards), something must have happened either during stimming or in the lab. I find it hard to believe that none of these eggs were any good for fertilisation. 

Looking at your and your DH's stats I am actually feeling very hopeful for your chances. I cant explain why it has not happened to you yet but I am so sure it can still happen naturally. 

It does look like intensive acu/hebrs worked very well for you so maybe you could do a few clomid cycles as you said together with chinese herbs to balance the effect of clomid. 

I know what you mean re being in abusive relationship with TTC. I also feel very unfit and afraid to live practically cos it may affect our TTC chances (what chances, right?). I crewed my career completely and ruined relationship with one partner who was very supportive just cos I could not travel abroad (it was in the middle of my IVF and then every TWW is an issue) and did not want to put out extra hours because "stress and being overworked is not good for TTC". Protein diet (+ occasional cakes) makes me put on weight and I am afraid now to do anything to lose it but hate my body at the same time every time I get dressed (once again nothing fits!). 

thinking about you and feeling very sad and deflated.


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## Jazzbird

So so sorry Blythe. Thinking of you xxx


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## alison29

I don't have much to add Blythe because I have never done IVF but I am so angry for you and hope they offer some compensation towards another cycle.


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## kits

Hiya ladies!

Blythe, hun, I'm still so sorry you're having to go through this. It's a horrible thing to be screwed over in such a way & without any control. I pray this weekend passes as fast as possible for you so you can get the closure you deserve. 

Like Briss said, please do your research so you can be as fully ammo'd as you can be on Monday. The NHS can be so horrible sometimes. Honestly. I can't believe how much they get away with. I know in some aspects they're brilliant but utterly disgraceful in others.

Hang in there, you're made of strong stuff, you'll make it through & I know good things will come.

Loads of :hugs:


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## kits

Briss, how are you doing? I hope you & hubby can find some peace this weekend too. I can't believe the bad luck we're having. I am in no way comparing my situation with any of y'alls, but someone is playing a nasty trick on us.

I genuinely thought June was going to be our month ladies, so many things had been looking better. All I can do is hope this is our last massive hurdle and that better news & tidings come our way with summer.

Thanks Allison & Irish for your support :flower:


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## BBbliss

Thinking of you Blythe :hugs:


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## kits

Hey.. you know ladies, maybe it's time to get back on track with life & enjoying it. You both say you look in the mirror and don't like what you see, that you've let ttc take over some of your happiness.

Perhaps it's time to start loving yourself again. Taking care or your own health is so important in this journey. I know this is such a struggle, and you've had so many hurdles after another, and another and another.. but it is ok to exercise, it's ok to go on holiday, it's ok to have a few girly drinks. And it most certainly ok to have some sugar! So stop beating yourselves up!

Everything in moderation. :thumbup:

My new acu pretty much told me to stop charting. Not directly but she seriously wants me to just wash the obsession away. I really want to but I think the information I gather is too important. Not sure how to go about it. I agree, I'm tired of obsessing over every symptom, over every temperature & trying to collect as much cm as possible!

She immediately put me on herbs. They are absolutely horrible?! Does anyone else's herbs taste like smoked cigarette buds that have been thrown onto a rainy curb & then nuked?:sick: I had no idea that the ideal temp for pregnancy is 37°C, I've been no where near that this cycle :grr: She had one quick look at my chart & said there's no way I'm pregnant simply because of the temp. But she said my constant temp fluctuation is my obsession.

May be it is time to let go?

I wrote an entry of my miscarriage. I think I really needed to get off my chest. It's ridiculously long, but it's something I have had lingering in my mind to do. I think all this time I had only just pretended to get closure.

Letting go of the, past time to start anew.

If I won the lottery I'd so share some with you ladies to help you get those little buns in the oven!


SO much hugs & prayers. Please take care!


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## Blythe

Briss - i feel i should have insisted on ICSI but i was doped up on pethidine and she was so very positive about it all. She was talking about transferring 3 embryos or 2 blasts and the smile did not leave her face. 

Still, it did not work and i have decided against sitting here all weekend trying to construct arguments against them. All i can do is let them know about my issues with the level of care and my feeling about letting me stim for too long. actually here is my diary entry for what was my trigger day.....

"*09/06/14 [CD14]
TRIGGER SHOT DAY

Side effects: continuing the theme from yesterday really. I feel nothing and I can breath right in with no feeling of anything. I cannot help thinking it is all over. Almost glad I will have the distraction of work. I laid there last night looking at stuff about large follies and that they contain eggs that have gone past their best  by my reckoning loads of my follies will be like that by the time EC takes place. I feel beyond stressed and angry with my clinic.

I had the most vivid dream last night of taking pregnancy tests and seeing very strong positives  it woke me up and then I realised it was a dream and that im nowhere near the stage of taking them.

My boobs feel moldy. They feel hard and uncomfortable. I feel like I have gone past my best before date  post ovulation like!!!!!!

I explained to DH that I needed some words of encouragement to get through this, a back up planHe said that this is our back up plan which saw me plummet into further despair.​*"

i knew something was amiss. Anyhow, I'm 42 and thats all the come back they need really! i would like to know what issues there specifically were with the eggs and sperm and what this means for us trying naturally. I wish we had more available funds so i could try again but alas i must now focus on something i can change and that is moving out of london.

Briss - i have come up with a new set of supplements for DH. He is about to start cycling to work...he has been putting it off due to sciatica and IVF but it is going to become a big part of his life now. We [well mostly me] have spent far too long putting stuff/life on hold so i cannot tell him no on this one. To try and counter the effects of this he has drastically cut down on booze and will take whatever supplements i put in from of him. What do you think:

well man or other brand multi vit aimed at fertility
Selenium, 200 mcg
Zinc 50 mg
Vitamin C Time Release 1000mg
E-400, 100% Natural Mixed Tocopherols
ubiqionol coq10 100mg

do you think i need to add 
L-Carnitine and l-arginine

i might talk to my Chinese doc to see if there is a tablet they can recommend as he won't take the powders. He has been going to acu once a week for his sciatica so hoping it may have positive effects elsewhere.

BBBliss - thank you for your kind words and keeping me in your thoughts :flower: i really did not appreciate how destructive this stuff can be. i have been in a weird little IVF bubble, the forums, the youtube IVF girls, the excitement, the terror, the waiting etc etc and i am totally exhausted although feeling a whole lot better today....certainly more rational :) I am so very sorry for your own loss and hope you are healing.

kits - you are a lovely lady :flower: i have had the same advice from my chinese doc but others believe it provides a very useful tool in seeing what might be causing us not to get pregnant. I must confess i felt better when i wasn't charting but then again i have also found it a very helpful tool in getting through the month. The bad things are the days when my temp plummets though and it can really ruin my whole day and then the highs when you see a temp rise.....yes quite exhausting really! I may use it now just around ovulation time to confirm temp shift and them leave it....easier said than done!

All other ladies - thank you so much for your comments. i really have found so much support here and this forum has helped get me through some rubbish periods whilst TTC. :flower:


----------



## Briss

Blythe, it's very hard to be insisting on anything at EC including ICSI. When I had my second EC and they told me there was only 2 follicles I was so lost did not know what to do, I got off the table and went back to DH to ask what he thought because the doctors were just no help and no one even offered any alternatives or any advice. they did not even believe me that there was third follicle and did not check the files. looking back they should have suggested turning it into IUI - would save us lots of money and gave us a shot at the best egg that cycle. also the mature egg would grow and get released later that cycle on its own. mess, total mess! so I completely understand how hard it is to make t=any decisions at EC. you just have to trust them and hope for the best. 

One question I'd definitely ask your embryologist is whether any sperm penetrated an egg. basically you need more info on reasons for no fertilisation. it's possible that the outer layer of your eggs was just too hard for sperm to penetrate which is common in older eggs. I personally do not think this is your issue but it would be helpful to know whether they found any sperm inside your eggs. and if they did that's in a way positive news cos it means most likely egg quality was an issue cos sperm was absolutely fine and we know they kept you on highest dose of stims for too long. it's positive cos that means you can get pregnant naturally. if no sperm was able to enter the eggs - that's a bit complicated and need further research to find out if this can be fixed naturally. 

I know that this cycle was very distressing but tbh I am still very impressed with the number of eggs! I will consider myself lucky if we can get half of your number :) that's also positive cos it means you have time on your hands to TTC naturally, you've got the reserves. 

but something must be stopping you from getting pregnant. it's really strange - good sperm, enough eggs, open tubes, good lining, perfect charts, previous healthy pregnancies, long time TTC - I wonder what's wrong? you had a chemical once so there might be sperm DNA damage. have you considered sperm DNA fragm test? it's rather expensive and your DH's morph is good but I am just thinking out loud here. what about immune issues? 

It's possible that IVF meds fixed something and maybe you will be one of those lucky women that get pregnant naturally after a failed IVF :) 

I like your diary, it's very useful to white down your thoughts. makes it clearer to determine what went wrong and when

You do need a back up plan in situations like this and I like yours. your most recent TCM experience was very positive and I think you should stick with it. what about IUI? I know they are not terribly successful but they still give a little push and increase your odds and they are not expensive. 

re cycling, before our unfortunate experience with DH's hormones I'd say absolutely no but I am not so sure now. We looked back at DH's SAs over the years and his best results were last year after he had no beer + supps + intensive running regime (10-12 hours several times a week) + he was MUCH slimmer (he is not fat but he has grown a bit of a tummy cos I do not allow his to exercise). I know what they say about cycling and all other exercise but the reality I see is a bit different so if cycling is so important to your DH I's say go for it.

re vitamins, very good list but I think wellman already has about 150 of selenium so if you add 50 that should be sufficient. selenium can be toxic so better not to overdo it. I'd add 500-1000 of both L-Carnitine and l-arginine. It's so great your DH is going for acu and can consider taking herbs. 

afm, we had a very bad argument on Friday, one of those terrible arguments we used to have, i just lost it completely. DH refused to take vitamins and I know it's helping to improve things a bit also I feel helpless that the treatment did not work. I cant go through stims knowing his morphology is an issue and it may affect the embroy quality. I raised donor sperm again if he is not taking vitamins, ended up screaming like mad at DH and felt like my brain was about to explode :( basically most of yesterday I spent at home recovering with terrible headache but at least he reconsidered and is now taking my list of vitamins :) but he is considering to resume exercising cos he hates his tummy.


----------



## Blythe

Briss - i think anywhere other than Create, then they would have suggested converting to IUI. 

thanks for the tip re selenium and i will look to add the l-c and l-a too. we won't be undertaking any diagnostics and i will just see what they say today and hope that it leaves a window of hope re natural conception. 

I'm so sorry you had a horrible argument on friday - so many frustrations and i guess it all comes out in the end. I'm glad that your DH has decided in favour of taking the supplements. i would hope that a balanced exercise regime would have benefits when TTC but i know your DH has a tendency towards being obsessive about these things....hopefully he will keep it all in check as he knows you concerns around this matter.

whats next - are you waiting to hear back from NHS re start date?


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## Briss

*kits*, I find it hard to enjoy anything while having this deep sadness somewhere inside. I am smiling when the sun is shining and laughing when something is funny but this is as far as I can go about enjoying life. This time last year I made a decision to lose weight and become my old self. it was very hard but I did it. I did enjoy being slim again but it did not make me happy, not for long anyway. 

I am re-reading Zita West's book on IVF and she keeps on saying that people who manage to let go do have better chances at getting pregnant. I so wish I could just let go and live my life but I cant. I need to know I am doing 200% of what's possible and impossible to make it happen, otherwise cant live with myself. I feel this is my major flow &#8211; not being able to let go

some people cant get used to charting etc and if that's freaking you out then it might be better for you just to give it a miss. the important thing is to know when you O (at least approximately) and BD around that time. also if your DH's sex drive allows it BD every 3 days is ideal. 

When you are pregnant your temps will be around 37 that's true but in TWW it can still be lower than that even when implantation started to happen, so early in the cycle it's hard to say. if your temp is around 37 in TWW you are most likely pregnant (unless you have a cold) but if your temp is lower you cant still be pregnant &#8211; no simple answer I am afraid 

I would not try and figure pregnancy based on your chart cos your temp is very unstable, it's possible that you take it at different time in the morning or something else affects the reading. It took me a few cycles to get used to temping so my charts started to make sense. 

I will definitely read your entry on miscarriage, I think this is a very good idea to keep a diary. I should probably start doing it myself. I did not want to start a journal cos I could never have imagined that it's going to take this long. may as well start now 

*Blythe*, let us know what your clinic says and how they explain what happened. I am still hoping they can offer something, they cant be so heartless. We are due for HSG type of thing this cycle and after that they will tell us if we can have IVf and if funding is available so I guess it's at least 2 more cycles before we can start or go elsewhere. 

*afm*, got a PEAk on CD9 this morning!!! WTF!!!!!!!!!! am I supposed to ovulate on CD10 now and have 23/24 day cycle? things have been bad but not this bad. the only time I ovulated this early was a cycle after I had a lap. why is this happening to me? is it the herbs? I am hoping I can blame this on a cyst cos I really want acu/herbs to work, I want at least something to work!!. I felt I had a cyst at O last cycle which may explain my high etsrogen levels this cycle (cysts are former follicles that just keep on growing and they release estrogen). also it was suspicious that I had such high FSH levels this cycle considering my high estrogen. I just hope it is the cyst messing up with my cycle. so may be it's just a one off bad cycle? it's also possible that my psychotic episode on Friday night threw my cycle off. I should really be careful. My most recent TSH was 2!! which is great and I guess somewhere at the back of my mind that gave me a licence to be emotional (having high TSH really made me stop before going into any emotional spiral cos I know how thyroid is sensitive to emotions)

the worst thing is that I am booked for HSG tomorrow and we cant BD!!! I really could not imagine that I may O so early cos it never happened before. I was actually hoping that we can have the procedure on CD10 and then I O a day or two after so we have time to BD. no BD no hope. I cannot go though a cycle with no hope&#8230;


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## Briss

ladies, I've found this unbelievably useful comparative table of male supps (https://menfertility.org/male-fertility-supplements-review/#toggle-id-1 click to review the detailed scoresheet). All the main ones are there so you can see and compare the ingredients and doses. I would not pay much attention to their grading system tbh I think this is just marketing for the "number 1" product. All of them require additional stuff to be added cos we definitely need higher doses but I still think wellman conception is a good option cost wise cos it gives you pretty much complete vitamin profile so you just need to add a few things to make it more potent.


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## kits

Ladies, I think y'all need some of these herbs I'm taking.. Genuinely feel high, drunk & frisky.

Been giggling at work so much & kept playing silly pranks on my oh this morning.

I'm usually sooo much more miserable than this, feels wierd! :blush:

One of the big things I emphasized to my ACU was how depressed I think I am & that is why I think I have lower energy. I do what's required, buy nothing more.

With being away from my family, the pub & other job and just 2 friends that I can't really hang out with (and aren't really broody) I am almost always lonely & sad.

She must've really taken this into consideration as I have been feeling a lot better. It's not constant that's why I think it's definitely the herbs but I'm glad to escape the misery even if for a bit.

I have no idea what they are, she told me we'd go over them on Friday when I go back, but she did say they're too help AF come along & that they provide nourishment. I think they may do harm if I were pregnant though because she kept double checking if I as still getting bfn.

I hope I'm not being too insensitive, I'll reply properly tonight.

Lots of :hug:


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## kits

I'd check again tomorrow Briss, I strongly believe that our hormones influence so much in our body. It's ridiculous as it's so easy to lose control over them.

I'm really so sorry you're having such a rough patch :(

Is HSG where they insert dye in an attempt to flush out your ovaries & tubes?


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## Blythe

i have returned from from my meeting with the consultant....absolutely none the wiser.

He said i had had a perfect response and that of the 14 eggs 11 were mature and they would have expected to see fertilisation. the only issue may have been poor binding between sperm and egg....no shit sherlock. He said he felt positive about further treatments using ICSI.

i asked whether the eggs could have been over mature [the embryologist had said this was a possibility over the phone] but he said nothing to suggest they were and that me being on stims for that long was perfectly fine. Every instinct in my body says they were over mature....having been doing this for so long i feel quite in tune with my body and feel they left me too long. There was absolutely no possibility from their point of view that this may have been the case. They said it was very rare. One egg may have been penetrated but potentially by 2 sperm as it arrested or something like that.

i asked whether clomid, medicated IUI would help us and he said absolutely not and they way forward was IVF or a best second, trying naturally. I'm not so sure about this as DH's sperm was 42% motile but after washing was 80% motile and still going fairly strong the next day around 65%. surely washed sperm nearer to where it needs to be leads to increased chance of pregnancy.

Briss - it is odd that you talk about letting go...i have been googling that exact phrase for the last 48 hours. its just not something that can be forced...i tried to do that with the fertility yoga/meditation classes i was doing but it did not feel right in my heart.

Your cyst may well be playing around with this cycle....i hope the egg holds on till after the HSG. I sometimes got early LH surges and ovulated about 3 days later. it is indeed horrid doing a cycle with zero hope but sometimes it cannot be avoided. We did not BD at all this cycle but DH relieved himself - i was scared in case i got pregnant naturally [yeah right!] and then got inseminated with twins...i was actually wondering what i would do with triplets or maybe even quads so thought it best to avoid BD.

Kits - it sounds like you are having a great response to those herbs....please remind me, is it powder or tablets you are taking?


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## Briss

*Blythe*, this is really annoying! I sometimes wonder how they can keep a straight face when they say there is no connection between overstimulation and egg quality when there is so much info on this out there! so do I take it that some sperm managed to get inside the eggs but it's just that they failed to fertilise it? this is positive &#8211; in a sense that you have chances to get pregnant naturally. I agree that ICSI is the best way forward but failing that I am quite sure clomid/IUI are still improving your chances compared to natural TTC.

I've been thinking about letting go for quite a while, at first the idea completely repulsed me then I started trying to see how it may work for me cos it definitely works for others. I am still no where near the answer because you cant let go of something that is bigger than your own life and I agree it does not feel right in my heart either. but this idea has been around for a while it was even mentioned in Mad Men (my most recent authority on things). a girl cant get an advert right and Draper tells her that she should think very hard about various ideas for the advert and then let go and forget about it for a while and then the answer just comes into her head and all becomes clear. Nice! but then you are not really letting go you are basically cheating cos you can probably just pretend that you forgot all about children and are really happy on your own (the important thing is to be away from families otherwise the truth will come out one way or another) 

I feel that O is inevitable, my ovaries are on fire. both of them actually which is unusual


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## Blythe

He said only one possibly where it looked . I did not even ask if they had gone near the eggs because my brain is not working properly at the moment. Today is the first day I have been able to walk without pain and severe bloating. 

I almost convinced myself to do IVF again when I left but then I thought if they don't acknowledge that I may have been over stimmed then I run the risk of them doing it again. 

Ps. I loved that comparative chart of vits....very good. I have just received the box of vits for DH although we will have a break from them for a week or two. I will go back for ACU and continue with herbs for another 3 months I think then re assess. 

Please report back on hsg. :flower:


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## Briss

Blythe, if you decide to do IVF again definitely go for a different clinic (unless these guys offer a really good financial incentive) and most certainly ICSI, still you have time to think about it while you are getting your body back into shape. if you are considering another IVF I'd not do clomid cos it will exhaust your body's reserves, just the herbs and acu + vitamins diet and the rest of it. As I said your stats and your response (14 eggs!!!) are so good that you can relax at the moment and see if you feel like doing IVf later this year or next year. I feel very positive for you (although very annoyed with your clinic). also, we could always go to Germany 1,500 euros for a natural IVF/ICSI! I am thinking of contacting Dovkav's clinic.

Begging DH to go with me tomorrow cos I really hate these procedures. apparently they are not going to look at my tubes, just the uterus and cervix for ET. 

I was actually putting together my own comparative chart of vits for men but it's so time consuming that at some point I just gave up. so I was really pleased to discover this table. also a few new names for male vits, but still I am sticking to wellmen and fertilaid as a base


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## Blythe

i wonder if you can learn to let go or if you just eventually reach a place where you make peace with it all and then it is a natural progression from there. I'm thinking it is not something that can be pushed.

Briss - i wonder what the deal is with a natural round of IVF in Germany. I suppose a trip is necessary for consult/day 3 tests/scans etc and then another for maybe 4/5 days for ER/ET. Factoring in planes and accommodation i wonder how much it would all be.....im thinking about 2.5K all in.


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## Briss

this cycle is totally out of order, my ovaries (left in particular) are so painful I can barely walk. dreading the procedure tomorrow. what if I am developing another cyst or something? OKP was negative this evening which gives me hope but ovarian pain is just too indicative of approaching O. the annoying thing is that I am still spotting! looks like if I do not spot before AF i spot after. 

I leant to ignore what my "TTC" friends are saying about their "hard times" cos none of them have any idea what LTTTC is like and I feel i have no right to be bringing them up to speed with the reality cos most will get pregnant tomorrow. I mean how are we supposed to let go when you are constantly reminded of what normality is. 

unless I have at least one healthy child I find it hard to imagine how I can ever reach a place where I make peace with it all. I can move on only when I exhausted everything or reached menopause by which time letting go serves no useful purpose. I think we need to figure out how to let go before it's too late. 

as for Germany they can talk to you via skype and you do not need to have 3 day bloods etc, you just come a couple of days before EC, then stay for ET 2 days later and off you go. I noticed that dovkav's cycles were not really supervised, she showed up just before O for the first scan. I am thinking that a week or 10 day holiday in Germany would be perfect for that. I'd add 1,000 for both to the price for travels/hotels


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## kits

Sorry, I completely collapsed last night just as the USA match started.

Blythe, that's one more day that's past. Hopefully you'll keep regaining strength & moving forward. I didn't realize the physical pain that was involved, I hope you managed to get some rest.

I really don't know much about ivf, iui or any of those procedures so unfortunately I can't be academically supportive but I'll always offer you :hugs: I'm really glad Briss can offer you so much insight. I have read Dovka's journal when Briss posted a link to it a while ago and I thought it brought quite a bit of inspiration.

Germany seems like a good alternative to UK prices.

I would genuinely share my lottery winnings with you!! Maybe I should begin playing..

Briss, how are you feeling today hun? Are you & hubby ok? Wishing you best of luck with your hsg. Hope all goes smoothly with no pain. :flower:

I'm still trying to get my head around 'letting go'. I'm not sure how to begin. My cousin, although I don't know how long she had technically been trying, got pregnant just as when she was about to start ivf. I think she had been diagnosed at a younger age with not really being fertile. Another woman I know had been TTC for over 2 years and she did get pregnant when she gave up trying as she was literally about to go on her day of the ivf procedure.

But I do find it physically impossible to let go once you have so much info. I mean is just saying 'God I give up, this is totally in your hands now' enough? Or do we need to kick FF off our phones & devices? I have no idea. I'm going to try to not obsess over it. Not sure if this will work but I think I'm just going to try depersonalizing myself from any 'data entry' I collect. Here's to hoping. Going to still try to be as healthy as possible.

If it weren't for my mc I wouldn't have ever gone down this road I was so blissfully ignorant! Took a hpt when I thought AF was due, got a negative.. Forgot all about it until I had a couple of mornings with nausea so I took another on cd38, I thought I was late due to stress & nothing else. I realised yesterday why my mc has been on my mind so much recently when I managed to not think about it for so long... I would've been 9 months now & due in the next week or 2. I think now I can safely move on.

I have also decided no opk for me (whenever AF decides to show up?) but I'm still going to try temping. And as far as cm, well I find that more curious than anything else :haha:

Blythe, I'm on Chinese herbs, they're genuinely vile. When my oh didn't want to try them (I'm that kind of person that likes to share everything whether or not it's a good idea to) I gave him a massive slobbery kiss after I drank mine & he found them quite disgusting.


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## Briss

sometimes I envy religious people, they find it easy to let go because they believe there is smb out there looking out for them. I cant do that. I have seen too much of this world to believe that there is any control of what's happening here. Still, for some reason I keep reading this thread of very religious TTcers cos I am trying (but failing) to understand their psychic. Most recently they posted the following poem (please do not shout at me I am just curious what you make of this):

_"The battle"

This was never about me having a baby. It turned out to be everything but that. 
It was a different story altogether. 
The prince removed everything to see where my eyes would lay. 
He turned his back to see if I would follow.
He gave me silence instead of answers, to see if I would notice.
He watched me endure loss to see how resilient i was made.
He removed my hope to see if I would fight for it back.

He wanted to see if I would choose him.
He wanted to see if a baby was all my heart desired.
And although at times i thought that is all that consumed me.
That getting prayers answered was all that mattered.
I realised in that moment, the more empty I became.
The fight was more evident then ever before.
Would i choose my faith, despite my pain?
Would i choose his way, despite my understanding?
Would i choose to obey, without certainty?
If i didn't get what i wanted, when i wanted it. Would it change how i felt towards him? 
Would i praise him despite my circumstance? Isn't that what 'the war of love' is about?
__The fight isn't just a battle, it's a love story. I choose him, and i will choose him every time. Every time i get knocked down, i will choose love._


I also do not think I understand the logistics of letting go. I thought letting go means admitting you may not have children ever and yet be able to live happily with this understanding and accepting it &#8211; simply cannot do!! ever!! am I hopeless? 

*kits*, I so wish I could also be blissfully ignorant as I was at the beginning of this journey. When I decided it was time I stopped living my life for myself and that I was ready to devote the rest of it to my children we had sex with no protection for the first time in our relationship. I had no idea what CD I was but I was absolutely sure that one time was sufficient. I was so happy. it was only 4 years ago that I was so naïve and happy. now I am very knowledgeable and miserable. but neither ignorance nor knowledge brought me a pregnancy&#8230; 

My herbs are not nice but much better than what my previous doc prescribed, that formula was just undrinkable! It was a willpower exercise every time I needed to drink it, the smell and taste were just beyond anything nasty I tried before 

*afm*, OPK was still negative this morning but plenty of EWCM (now that we do not BD I can perfectly distinguish it from everything else), left ovary is still in pain. I am so hoping my CBFM just freaked out and gave me a false PEAK yesterday&#8230;.


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## Blythe

Kits - i have not used OPKs for about 3 months and i have to say i have enjoyed not using them.....there is something about an approaching dark line or seeing that darn smiley face that makes me a bit frantic...I start nagging and getting stressed. Having said all of this i brought some at the weekend as i want to see that my cycles get back on track after all those horrid fertility drugs i have taken.

my herbs are ok tasting which makes me question their effectiveness. I reckon if it tastes bad it must be doing something amazing inside!! i predict only good things ahead for you and I look forward to hearing how you respond to the new treatment plan.

Briss - how was the HSG? i found mine very painful...for a few seconds at least. hopefully it will give the sperm a bit more room to move around.

i was thinking about sperm last night and low counts. If you and DH BD every night for about 4 days then that is potentially 20million sperm hanging around isn't it. That aside, i do hope that ovulation holds off for a day or two and you get a chance to BD beforehand. 

i have a very religious friend who was praying for my IVF to be successful...i found strength in her faith and i see what comfort it has given her over the years. i do pray myself...and have found myself doing it a fair bit over the last year...obviously all fertility related but ask for stuff from the universe rather than a god.

I'm afraid i find some of the religious stuff a bit too much. I read through BFP announcements and see how the women are praising the lord for allowing them to become pregnant. And even those who have suffered to get there are singing his praises....that he had a plan all along. Has he really got time to test people's faith like that. i don't buy it. i don't like how this stuff makes people feel guilty.....I don't like these words at all

He gave me silence instead of answers, to see if I would notice.
He watched me endure loss to see how resilient i was made.
He removed my hope to see if I would fight for it back.


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## Briss

CD 10 and I am still spotting and quite a lot. very unhappy about this cycle.

basically what I had today was apparently a dummy ET and 3D SIS which is not exactly like HSG cos they do not check your tubes, just the cervix and uterus. Everything was fine except my cervix was closed. no idea why cos my actual ET was very straightforward. he had to open it which was tolerable. he said cervix looked fine so the spotting is most likely coming from the uterus. how can it be while the cervix is closed? anyway, they are going to recommend Dilapan dilators for 3 hours a week before ET to keep my cervix open for the real thing. 

*Blythe*, it got me thinking that it's possible the issue is with your cervix? in which case IUI should definitely resolve the issue. Although it's also possible that CBFM was right and I ovulated already hence the closed cervix. 

They said we should not TTC anymore cos things will move very quickly from here and they do not want a risk of mc from natural conception at this stage. not sure I go for this cos I now have open cervix! really do not know what to make of it and how quickly they can go if the review of our case has not taken place yet so I do not know if we are getting the funding. it may still take a while. On the other hand I am taking antibiotics today and rectally overnight which is probably going to destroy any sperm that dares to enter&#8230;


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## Briss

*Blythe*, re religion, I agree. My mum is very religious and in the past her prayers were answered and I witnessed a small miracle (possibly just a coincidence but something extremely unusual and almost impossible to believe). When my fiancé died I was only 20 and it was such a shock that without religion I would most likely ended up in a psychiatric facility. believing that there was a reason for a young 28 year old healthy and most kind man to die kept me sane for a few years. Obviously as I grew older and saw more of the world it all lost any sense. 

When I read that poem I thought a person must be a very acute masochist to be in peace with this, you must enjoy suffering to be a religious person otherwise I just cant explain it. The downside is of course I find it impossible to let go because there might not be anyone there to catch me


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## alison29

Blythe i have a hard time with the "gods plan" bit too. It's actually one of my pet peeves. Why is God's plan that my SIL or many others have multiple healthy children at will and a good friend of mine took her 2 years to get pregnant and the baby has a major heart defect (missing left ventricle) The gods plan thing just doesn't sit well.


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## kits

Regarding religion & your poem, I have to admit I am nowhere near what my mom would like me to be. 

All I can be is as Christian as I can be, which in my opinion is more important. I know that religious people think that's a cop out but I struggle with believing the bible literally & I do think that a lot of religious people are not very Christian. I genuinely want to help everyone as much as I possibly can but I don't always know how.

I do pray, I mainly pray for people to stop suffering. I pray for good things to come to you ladies. When I pray it's to not get in an accident or get caught when I speed (by speeding I mean doing 77-80 on the freeway) if I'm running late. I don't speed if I'm on time-ish.

I also pray when I've had bfp's, big time. I try not to pray for trivial matters (despite my speeding :blush: ) as I would like my prayers to get noticed & I'm not shallow.

Apart from that, I'm very realistic. I know that at any moment any of us could die & that life is just not fair. 

For me faith is believing in greater good. Whether it's a greater power, a miracle or a s simple gentle act of kindness. Even if I don't like someone I will make sure to say something to them that I think will make them feel better because I believe in being good. 

So that brings me to the poem.

The bit I liked the least was:
_If i didn't get what i wanted, when i wanted it. Would it change how i felt towards him? _

In Latin & catholic families everything is based around fear & tbh I think that just causes too many issues. I don't want to fear someone or something I'm supposed to have unconditional love or trust in. The need to be tested is ridiculous. If you have pure faith then nothing should budge you.

I mean seriously, if you're going to determine your faith based on whether you get what you wanted when you wanted it then that's just downright petty & pathetic, which again brings me to why I'm not keen on religious tendencies.

If the devil* approached me, offering me children in exchange for my soul/faith/beliefs/etc.Then I wouldn't take his offer. No hesitation. I want children based on something good & from love, end of. Why that'd even be question for someone of faith is beyond me.


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## kits

Um mmmm.... So sorry for going off on a major tangent there. Not sure if I actually answered the question 

:blush: :blush: :blush:


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## kits

God's will, God's plan... Well that gets thrown around quite a bit, but whatever brings you comfort. Who am I to judge?

Science & nature are just as brilliant!!!!!


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## kits

Briss, maybe for you faith, religion or whatever can be wherever/whenever you can find inner peace. Sometimes we have to just dig incredibly deep to find it. Maybe try to search for that instead of how to let go. Does that make sense? I do hope it's not cliché.

Once you find that then maybe you'll feel better.

I went to a christening last month and tbh I was absolutely dreading it. But we got very lost so we missed the church bit which really upset me. I don't get to go to church much but when I do I get a peaceful humble feeling that's very comforting.

Anyways, when we eventually met up with the group instead of being filled with envy I was quite content. They got lucky and why is that not worth celebrating? They're baby girl is beautiful & precious and the couple really do love each other.Since then I stopped being envious when I see babies or pregnant.

I'm really truly sorry about your loss of your fiancée. That must've been a horrible & dark time for you. Surviving that may be what also gives you strength during your TTC battles.

A million :hug:


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## Briss

This cycle is way too off, CD 11, OPK is still negative but temp has gone up and I do feel like I ovulated already because sex drive is just not there anymore, but I will carry wasting my digital OPK for the next couple of days just to be sure but it looks like CBFM was spot on as usual so I most likely ovulated on CD10 which is shockingly early even for me!! 

why is this happening? as soon as I got a bit of good news with no pre AF spotting and later O thinking that my cycle is improving I get the crappiest cycle ever! either I have a cyst that messed it all up (still strange cos I have cysts from time to time but they do not affect my cycles like this) or the herbs are doing something. I do not know how else to explain this unusual activity. I really hope this is just a one off cycle though...

we did not BD as I was taking lots of antibiotics yesterday + rectally overnight, also thought it best not to BD with open cervix because of the possible infection. I am lucky DH is taking me on holidays so hopefully a bit of sun will help me get through a wasted cycle. I have not wasted a cycle since my lap two years ago, I guess my failed second IVF can also come under this category but was far more traumatic.


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## Breaking Dawn

Blythe...I'm shocked on your behalf of the dr and clinic. im furious for you. How dare they fail you in your trust. You are strong...I'm rooting for you. :hugs:

As for the religious discussion. I do believe in God....but i find it hard to believe that prayer is the answer....bc look at all the suffering. he may be there to give us strength when we need it and that's part of the reason we keep going. But i dont know if we stop trying and just pray...if thats enough??

Just me thinking out loud after reading the poem.


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## alison29

How fun some time in the sun away from responsibility. I love getting away from my house and chores.

Breaking dawn I get what you are saying I think you have take action in addition to "praying" or whatever a person calls it.


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## alison29

Kits I just saw your post thanks for sharing your religious viewpoint. My dh or someone told my kids they would go to hell for being "bad" or whatever, I don't even believe in hell I told them but that is just my belief you can believe whatever you want. I try to push the karma concept and point out when they are mean spirited almost always soemthing bad happens right back to them. The devil concept can be so real to children and not be just a symbol of bad energy and evil (the scary man with the red horns) I told them just because someone says something doesn't mean its true. That was a huge lightbulb moment for me in life. I don't know where karma comes into ttc though. My friend who is ttc (for 2+) says in a former life she must have really had a lot of kids and been so done with it and wished upon herself to really have a hard time having them the next go around.


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## alison29

Have fun in the sun briss. Isn't your cervix open while ovulating so it should be ok to bd plus you are on antibiotics. I would keep checking opk if I were you. Ibuprofen always screws up my O pattern. did you take any of that?


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## Blythe

so t


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## Briss

*Blythe*, your eggs were fine and I am sure they would have fertilised with ICSI or if they were not over stimmed with IVF. your body did marvellously! I just cant believe you could not get a bit more luck with your clinic. I wish I knew what to say but I am struggling myself at the moment to make sense of anything. I'd carry on with TCM so you could get your body back to normal as soon as you can. I know I state the obvious but you have a plan of moving out of London at some point &#8211; this could take your mind of things for a while. How's your corset making going? 

I wish I knew how to let go, I am not even sure I want to. I am only considering letting go cos it supposed to get me pregnant &#8230; my every breath is about getting pregnant I do very little of what does not bring me closer to pregnancy. If I already had a child maybe I would not be so focused but as things stand I cant imagine wasting my few fertility years on career or anything else. that's just not something I can live with. 

I also do not know what to believe but I am beginning to feel that there is some kind of negative energy out there that makes my life a misery. and not enough positive energy to protect me. I was looking at my pictures before TTC in 2009 and I looked so much younger. I was happy for a short while and then it all changed for the worse in 2010 and has been like that every since. I do not know how to change my fortune for the better 

*alison*, I did not take Ibuprofen cos I wanted to feel everything that's happening during the procedure. It was uncomfortable and a little painful when he was opening the cervix but tolerable. I have no idea why my cervix was closed - he could not explain it either. I wish I could believe we have many lives and may have children in my other life. I know that our perception is limited and the world is much bigger than we can perceive but since we are here and are given a certain number of things we can do or control or feel etc I see no reason to forget about this life and live in some imaginary world of the bible or some other religious book. I am interested in what's happening here in this life and I also feel that having a baby and giving life is the only miracle we can do here. No other experience you can get in this life even comes close. 

Sometimes I think that hell is real and it has a name &#8211; LTTTC!

re poem, there was a similar story in the bible about a couple who could not have children and then the God gave them a son when they were very old. but when the boy grew up the God demanded that the farther sacrificed his son to him. basically just to check his loyalty. there are movies about this story and everyone praises the strength of the father's faith. I personally think this is pure cruelty. not surprisingly in many languages religious people call themselves literally slaves of God. Why believe in God who wants you as a slave with no will of your own? what's the point of living if you are not actually free, you are here to live smb else's plan for you. 

do not get me started on the God's plan. Why is God's plan that a man imprisons his own daughter and rapes her for 19 years while she gives him children (no issues with TTC here!) which are also imprisoned all their life. sick but it actually happened in Austria. but there is no point trying to explain this to a religious person cos they just say humans are so stupid there must be something that we just cant see but the god knows it all better. 

*Breaking Dawn*, there must be something in the prayer cos it is vital in so many religions. maybe it helps you focus your mind I do not know. In the past it helped me think that I am doing something to help in situations where there was nothing I could do except pray. 

*kits*, I so wish I knew where to find my inner peace. I am not in piece with myself and my life and how can I be? I am happy for my friends who have children but seeing them gives me terrible pain because it reminds me of my personal tragedy. It's not even jealousy cos I do not want what they have. I survived a lot of things I just do not understand why I am supposed to be always surviving rather than getting thing easily in life? 

The problem with making contracts with the devil as we all know is that he will most definitely cheat. but making contracts with God seems to be no better cos he can take it all away as he pleases just to test your faith. 

I was just looking at your chart, maybe your body tried to o on CD 14/15 but could not for some reason and then tried again later in the cycle on CD 24? Have you ever done cycle monitoring? it's when they do bloods and scans throughout the cycle to see how things work. might be worse asking your FS.


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## Blythe

Briss - thank you for your words - they always help me so much. i hope your holiday is soon and it provides some relief from this pain. i have not sewed for a while.....you have reminded me that i must get a new project going as i find it so very absorbing. For me its almost like meditation. the last thing i did was a lace which i made from scratch to embellish the bride's bodice. She had an ivory gown but had the original silver/crystal/white trim taken off and asked me to create one to go with her bridal colours, champagne, blush and cream....my favourites. I did it in a embroidery frame and it took bloody hours over the course of many days. i did that whilst watching sex in the city and found myself quite content. I'm not sure if the pic shows the detail but you get the idea.

we have been looking to get something called a turbo trainer in the flat so i can use DH's road bike to train. I'm going to try and get some fat off and get stronger...also added benefit i can watch TV whilst getting fit! 

Briss - you are doing everything you can to get pregnant and i really do admire you so much. i might look at how we can cultivate positive energy....i will of course pass on key tips and any magic solutions i come across.

please keep going and it WILL happen :flower:
 



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## Briss

Blythe, this is just so beautiful!! you did this all by yourself? OMG! how long did it take you to learn to do that? I did not realise you started taking on clients. you are so confident! this is really positive. I also need to start thinking about alternative way to make money. 

DH got some kind of trainer to exercise at home but it's just not as good as the gym one

I got Zita West's CD with visualising exercises. It's just 20 min and it is similar to what I've been doing myself but somehow when smb else tells you to imagine your perfect eggs it has a stronger effect. I will try to do that daily and I will also get her IVF CD.

I always find your posts so positive, what you say makes sense and I somehow find strength to go on

I've been agonisingly thinking about my cycle and came up with two reasons for what's going on (i) my FSh was super high for some reason this cycle which made my ovaries work super fast and as a result I ovulated early. no idea why FSh is this high this cycle though. (ii) I have a functional cyst that is making lots of estrogen, so my estrogen went up and LH reacted to higher estrogen and surged before its time. You can tell I've been watching House md :)


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## Briss

I am so upset today, CD 12 OPK is negative, temp is up and I have a lot of brown spotting!!! WTF? I never ever spot after O and definitely not in such amounts, it almost looks like AF is starting. maybe I did not even O this cyle which will be the first time ever for me. My cycle is completely screwed. I wonder if I should stop acu/herbs altogether. I had short cycles and minor spotting issues but never this bad.


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## Blythe

When is your next ACU appt? You had such a great looking cycle last month so this totally doesn't make sense. I have very occasionally spotted with ovulation......I think you are on the same herbs you were last month so it is quite strange and you are not taking anything new are you?

I hope dr e has some answers. 

Possibly the spotting has resulted from the procedure the other day. 

I know how upsetting a wasted cycle is. This is my first 2ww in nearly 4 years where I know for certain I am not pregnant and it's good not obsessing about possible symptoms......obviously only good thing!


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## gingmg

Hi Ladies- interesting discussion on religion and letting go. I bet the concept of letting go is different for everyone. Maybe some people really do find peace with not having children and then wind up getting pregnant shortly after. I think, though, that "letting go" can come in many forms and many levels if that makes any sense and that it isn't necessarily synonymous with "giving up". Maybe for a lot of other people, it's not really letting go of the idea of having children, or giving up, just that they are able find joy and happiness in the meantime. I agree with Breaking that sometimes you have to fight for what you want and it isn't always easy or painless. But maybe it's more about finding some peace that the struggle exists versus giving up?

I should be the last one to talk because I didn't handle my year and half of TTC very well and in the end was lucky to have success with IVF- but I wanted to share a little about my mind/body program as I do feel that it really helped me cope better, or at least change some of the ways I looked at things. I hope I am not out of line here, because I do know that everyone's struggle is different, and everyone needs to go about it in their own way, and what works for one person may not work for the next. 

We learned a lot about the stress response and ultimately the goal of the program was to deal with stress differently. Life can be stressful, there is no way to avoid that, but what can change is our responses, patterns of thinking, and coping mechanisms. This is probably along the lines of what Briss was talking about with positive thinking. To take it in very literal terms, we learned that if you were under the ultimate stressful situation- being chased by a saber tooth tiger for example- your body would shut down all non vital pathways in order to shunt the most blood to the most important organs- your brain, heart, and lungs. If you were running to save your life against this tiger, there is no way your reproductive system would be functional, because at the moment, it is irrelevant. Although we are not running away from tigers in our day to day lives, the concept still applies, that when stressed, energy will always protect certain bodily systems over others. The program was focused on learning ways to better handle stress, not necessarily on avoiding stress- because we all know that that is impossible. Taking the time to meditate for 10-20 minutes everyday was one of the biggest parts of the program. I always used CDs, because I found it too hard to do it on my own. I bet prayer counts here as well. We worked a lot on mindfulness, enjoying the little moments, even something as stupid as eating a piece of chocolate. We actually did this in class, ate a piece of chocolate with our eyes closed to savor every smell, texture, and bite. I kept a grateful journal and forced myself to write down 3 positive things every single day. It was helpful to remind myself, in detail, of all the things that I had that were going well, because it is so easy to forget. We also worked on these cognitive logs, which are hard to explain. Basically we learned about the different common "negative " patterns of thinking. For every negative pattern of thought, there was actually an alternative positive thought pattern that we learned as well. Every time we had a stressful event, we had to write a description about it, write about the all the instant thoughts and emotions that came because of that. Then we would go over our experiences as a group and would have to name what our negative thoughts were and as a group would help each other come up with the positive thought pattern to take it's place.

I know I am not describing this program very well, but it was helpful for me to start to feel better, especially being off my meds. There were a million exercises that we did to try to change how we think so I am not going to be able to write it all down in a few short paragrahps. It's not something that happens overnight, it is a work in progress, and we met weekly for a few months so it was definitely something that happened over time. Comparing the energy of the group as a whole from the first class to the last class was a dramatic difference. We still meet monthly on our own now that the official program has ended. Of note, more than half of the group has now had success with their IVF cycles. Most of the women were TTC much longer than me and it took many IVF rounds, and some are still trying. I would bet the ones that are still TTC would say that they feel better in their lives then they used even though they are still waiting for their turn at success. 

I am not trying to over step my bounds or trying to tell anyone to "just think positive" because I know it is much more complicated than that. I know the pain is real and the pain is deep. But if any of you come across a mind/body program for fertility at any of your IVF centers, I highly recommend it, and if anything, it's not going to hurt, even if it doesn't help. Sometimes it just feels good to feel good even if it's not bringing you any closer to a BFP. I wanted to give everyone here a big hug. :hugs: I know that this isn't easy, and if I could wave a magic wand and fix any of it for anyone, I would. :hugs:


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## Briss

*Blythe*, I also think it's possible that my spotting has resulted from the procedure but it was going on even before that so cant be sure. I discussed it with Dr E and he agreed with my first hypotheses i.e. my FSh was super high for some reason this cycle which made my ovaries work super fast and as a result I ovulated early. but he also said it's impossible to say why my brain is producing so much extra FSH. could be stress (the usual) but I think this is unlikely to be due to my psychotic episode cos my FSH was already high a few days before that. I am tempted to think that the herbs just do not work because this was the 3rd cycle on herbs but maybe it's just a one off unfortunate cycle. Dr E says his herbs are exactly for situations like mine high FSH/early O so hopefully he is right and my high FSh is not an indication of low reserve. I am trying to accept that this is just going to be a lost cycle and hope the next cycle will be back to normal. slightly scary to approach IVF when your cycles can be so random, there is no way IVF can work on a cycle like this. Dr E did not think this has anything to do with my cyst and most likely I do not have a cyst cos my estrogen levels are not as high. He might be right but only scan can tell for sure. I am just slightly relieved we went for the FSH testing with the IVF clinic last month and did not wait for it to get better because we would not have a chance this month.

The only new thing I was taking this cycle is iron but I do not think it could affect FSh in any way. 

I know what you mean about not obsessing, I have a business trip in a week so normally I'd be really stressed about flying in TWW, feeling terrible guilt that I might be damaging my fragile little embryo and today I had a strange feeling of freedom when I thought I can just fly anywhere guilt-free. I guess it does help that I am focusing on the future IVF at the back of my mind I still have that comfort. When DH said to me last December we are not doing another IVf until June I was in despair I thought I would not survive until June with no hope but here I am&#8230; If we are lucky to get IVf it wont start until end of July 

*gingmg*, thank you! I think this is exactly what we need right now. I am reading a book on how to cope with infertility and it has a similar idea about constant stress of infertility and how to deal with it so it does not affect your chances and find a way to live your life while TTC. 

I am really interested in what you said about the different common "negative " patterns of thinking and that for every negative pattern of thought, there was an alternative positive thought pattern. can you remember any examples that you discussed with your group? I am trying to understand the principals of how this works.


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## gingmg

Oh I forgot to mention "mini" relaxation exercises. These were also key in the program and we were encouraged to do at least 20 of these a day. "Mini's" were exactly that, mini ways to meditate throughout the day. 

Examples: 
1. forcing yourself to take a deep slow breath through your nose every hour, inhaling counting to 4, exhaling counting to 4. 
2. Taking a moment to stretch and yawn
3. Breathe in deeply, imagine yourself filling with peace, breath out and consciously let go of stress
4. imagery: spend a minute imaging what it would be like to be a tree (strong, rooted, expansive), and mountain (timeless, strong, stable, sun (radiant, warm) ext...
5. picture yourself in a place you find relaxing
6. practicing mindfulness: looking out a window, going for a walk and noticing how each house or building is decorated, listen (what is the most distant sound you can hear?), eat a favorite food mindfully ect. 

Good times to do minis: in traffic, on hold on the phone, waiting for the doctor in the waiting room, at all red lights, standing in line, ect.....
We were given bright stickers, the circle/dot kind that you find in any stationary line in the store and we were encouraged to put them around so that every time you saw this sticker it reminded you to do a mini relaxation exercise. I put them on my cell phone, on the car horn, on the fridge, ect...

One of the exercises we did was to make pie chart of how we spend our time - example 12 hours working, 6 hours sleeping, 2 hours commuting, 1 hour eating, ect.... everyone's time pie chart looked different. Then we made a "joy list" of at least 30 things that we love to do or things that bring us happiness. Only one or two people actually had any of the things on their "joy list" also on their time pie chart. It was pretty amazing to realize that most of us aren't taking the time to do the things we actually love to do. We learned to make it a goal to incorporate something from the "joy list" into life every single day. Which is why I probably did so much yoga for all those months.

Here is the list of cognitive distortions that I was referring to:
1. *All or nothing*: thinking in terms of black and white. If your performance falls short, you see yourself as a total failure. Even if its something little, Example: if you find yourself in the slowest line at the store, you say " I always pick the wrong line".
2. *Overgeneralization*: You see a negative event as a never ending pattern of defeat. Example: A friend breaks your trust and you think no one can be trusted.
3. *Mental Filter*: Inability to see anything positive because you are too busy dwelling on the negative. You pick out a single negative detail and dwell on it exclusively so that your vision of reality become darkened. Example: You are at a party having a great time until someone asks if you have gained weight recently. now your evening is ruined.
4*. Disqualifying the positive*: You reject positive experiences by insisting they don't count. Example: Someone compliments you for doing a nice job and you think or say "anyone could have done it" or "they are just being nice"
5.*Jumping to conclusions* You automatically draw a negative conclusion even though there are no facts to support it. Example: you decide not to ask a friend for help with something because you assume she will say no.
6. *Magnification:* You exaggerate the importance of a negative event or inappropriately shrink the positive events until they appear trivial. 
7. *Emotional Reasoning:* You assume your negative emotions are the way things are. 
8. *Should statements:* unproductive self- statements like should, ought, must ect.. result in feeling pressured, inadequate, and /or resentful.
9. *Labeling and Mislabeling:* Example: you are on a diet and you eat an ice cream and say "I'm such a fat slob". This way of thinking is illogical because it is over simplistic. We are complex beings who have ever changing thoughts, emotions and actions.
10: *Personalization:* Even if something isn't your fault, you own it. Example: your lover cheats on you and you decide its because you weren't good enough
11. *Perfectionism:* You feel you must be perfect all the time.
12. *Approval Seeking:* All the significant people in your life must love and approve of you all the time.
13:*Self Righteous:* People should always do what you think is right and if they don't they are wrong.
14:*Woe is me:* You see yourself as a victim of circumstances when it's just common everyday stuff of life.
15.* Comparison:* You compare yourself to others. This results in feeling either inferior or superior.

I copied this list from my booklet. When we would do our cognitive logs we had to figure out when we were using any of the above cognitive distortions and in its place figure out what the underlying emotional beliefs were, because there was always something positive to be taken out of any circumstance. We would refer to our list of positive emotions and see if any of them could have been applied to our particular stressful event. *Examples: acceptance, appreciation, awareness, balance, change, choice, clarity, compassion, contribution, cooperation, curiosity, courage, detachment, determination, desire, devotion, discipline, effort, flexibility, forgiveness, fulfillment, kindness, generosity, newness, patience, perseverance, power, process (one step at a time), sacrifice, self confidence, service, surrender, tolerance, willingness, wisdom.
*
We actually had to turn in our homework every week so she could see that we were doing these exercises at home and keep track of how many "minis" we did a day, ect, and there was always an extra assignment or two. I am not saying that any of this is easy, and I still find myself getting overwhelmed and thinking negatively. It's work for me to look at the glass half full so to speak. I don't know if any of this helpful or not. If it's not, no big deal- but the program was certainly an eye opener for me as to little ways that I could change how I looked at things or little things that I could do to help myself feel better, which in turn made a big difference.


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## gingmg

I don't in any way want to discount anyone's feelings or recent experiences. Blythe, I know it's been incredibly trying and emotional lately. I am so sorry you are going through this. I am in by no way say that if you only think positive things would be different. I am not saying that at all. The concept of "letting go" kept coming up and while some people may quite literally give up and move on which is fine if that is what they need to do, I was trying to offer another perspective that "letting go" does not have to necessarily mean "giving up". Maybe it's just a different way of living in the meantime so that maybe some of the pain is easier to bare. That's all.


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## alison29

Thanks so much for that Ging. I am laughing about the "you are such a fat slob" negative self talk. I like to tell myself to "get your a*s out of bed loser" after about the third time I press snooze on my phone in the morning.
For a lot of the trials and tribulations of the day a good mantra for me is "Does it really matter?" it just feels good to think/say that most things don't really matter and they don't! Disclaimer: I am not talking about ttc stuff here.


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## alison29

Another good one for me is: just because you think something doesn't mean it's true.


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## Briss

gingmg, thank you for the info!! so helpful. I copied the minis so I will try and do them regularly. your list of cognitive distortions is quite recognisable, I definitely do some of these things. 

I wonder if you could help me find a way to turn my negative pattern into something positive. At work i got a promotion which is a big deal (do not ask me why cos I spend most of my days doing fertility research or going off to various doctors appointments) I should really be happy and I was for about 15 minutes. It might have lasted longer if I was not so preoccupied with my spotting. every time I go to the bathroom and see this brown spotting my mind goes into its usual "it's the end of the world" pattern. Obviously this spotting is a big thing and something is not right cos I never ever spotted on 2-3 DPO. I believe it's to do with the procedure I had (dummy ET/3D SIS) and the fact that they played with my cervix. still, I cant help it but immediately imagine the worst possible reasons for spotting and how this is damaging to my health and out IVF etc. any idea how I can see the spotting is there and not react that way?


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## kits

:hug:


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## kits

Blythe said:


> so that friend of mine i mentioned the other day, who was living her life in two week segments, having been trying for 1 month is now pregnant on second month of trying at age of 40. of course she is because they had sex around ovulation time and like most people they conceived.
> 
> i really need to find a way to let go as if 11 decent eggs cannot get fertilised in a dish then clearly no chance of any fertilising now...not after 4 years.
> 
> if i sound bitter its because I am. i really need to find a way of letting go now because I'm not sure what else i can try. i have now exhausted all my financial and emotional reserves.

:hug: still praying for you! Sometimes I think getting drunk is our way forward.


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## kits

Briss said:


> gingmg, thank you for the info!! so helpful. I copied the minis so I will try and do them regularly. your list of cognitive distortions is quite recognisable, I definitely do some of these things.
> 
> I wonder if you could help me find a way to turn my negative pattern into something positive. At work i got a promotion which is a big deal (do not ask me why cos I spend most of my days doing fertility research or going off to various doctors appointments) I should really be happy and I was for about 15 minutes. It might have lasted longer if I was not so preoccupied with my spotting. every time I go to the bathroom and see this brown spotting my mind goes into its usual "it's the end of the world" pattern. Obviously this spotting is a big thing and something is not right cos I never ever spotted on 2-3 DPO. I believe it's to do with the procedure I had (dummy ET/3D SIS) and the fact that they played with my cervix. still, I cant help it but immediately imagine the worst possible reasons for spotting and how this is damaging to my health and out IVF etc. any idea how I can see the spotting is there and not react that way?

The only thing I can think of is that your body may be trying to flush something out. Is your spotting a dull dark or bright red? That should indicate whether it's new or old blood.

Have you done anything different this cycle? How much iron are you taking?

If there's anything I have come to terms with is that my cycles have been consistently inconsistent since ttc, for the past 10 months in total. Before that they've been very punctual. Any chance you could be going through just a general change in your body?

Have you been eating a lot of beetroot or watermelon?

On a positive note, you should indulge on a nice juicy steak. You know just in case to make up for the loss of blood.

I love steak.


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## gingmg

Briss- great question. I am by no means an expert on any of this. And to be honest, after I wrote that entry I got into an argument with someone and proceeded to beat myself up all day afterwards, and kinda even still. I think I displayed every negative cognitive distortion that I listed. I'm working on it.

If I was in the group this is how we would dissect your stressful event.
First, great job on the promotion! You instantly *"disqualified the positive"* by saying you don't know why you deserve it because you are always off to the doctors instead of relishing in the fact that you probably worked damn hard for it and 100% deserve it. This also might fall under *"magnification", *shrinking positive events until they seem trivial. I think more importantly it demonstrates* "mental filter"* by being happy about the promotion briefly, but letting the spotting overpower everything else. I think one of the negative distortions at play with the spotting is *"jumping to conclusions*" and assuming the worst in terms of IVF and your fertility. My guess is the spotting is from the hsg- I spotted for a while afterwards, it was quite painful and traumatic as far as I am concerned. 

How to turn it around? First step recognizing all of the above. Then looking for anything positive in it. *Appreciating* the promotion and realizing how hard you work to be recognized. Its a big accomplishment which shows *dedication*, *commitment*,* effort*, *talent* and *skill.* As far as the spotting, you are *curious *as to what is causing it, you are *inquisitive* and *attentive*. You are *aware *of what is going on with your body. Maybe when the spotting happens, *accepting* that this cycle might be a bit different than other cycles, but that many things have been happening, the hsg being the biggest one that most likely explains everything. *Tolerance* for the cycles that are out of your norm and realizing that that in no way effects any future ivf attempts.* Balance*, in that it doesn't have to overshadow the great job you have done at work. And *patience* that this fertility journey is a* process*, and there are many steps to it. 

I was never good at creating positive thoughts from negative emotions, but I think you probably get the drift of how it is supposed to work. Its a work in progress and some days will be better than others.

I had a small meltdown, like I said today, and during it I couldn't see the positive. To get through things initially, until I have space to reflect, I have to just take deep breaths and tell myself that its going to be OK, I will get through it, and that I am strong enough to handle it. The analysis of the situation always comes after the fact for me.

Oh one more exercise.
We did "news and goods". Every night my wife and I would share something with each other that was either new or good, again forcing us to not only have a positive shared conversation but to force us to think of something good at the end of the day. Another more complicated version is "good, bad, ordinary" in which you tell your spouse something good that happened during the day and something meaningful or a lesson you got from it. Something bad that happened and a lesson you learned from it, or something ordinary and something you learned from it.


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## Blythe

Gingmg - thank you so much - i have brought a couple of books of being joyful and have joined an online meditation group so i am going to really try and get myself out of this hole and make some necessary changes. :flower:

so much of this is about creating that space to decompress. i have been slowing keeping everything in and indulging in increasingly depressive thoughts. i could not find a way to break the loop and so now i find myself in a dark place.....not good when i have so much to be thankful for. thank you for taking the time to share all this info :hugs:

Briss - congratulations on your promotion :flower:

Kits - i used to love a good old drink with my friends...i was a complete lush! But the hangovers are unbearable so i no longer drink! i hope you are ok..:flower:


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## Irish_eyes

Hi ladies sorry I haven't been around but I have been reading posts but haven't got replying. 

Briss - I spotted a long time after my HSG. Mine was mid cycle and I just FF and in fact I spotted from the day of HSG until it turned into AF. You were talking 9 days at least. With all tha fiddling about they do you would expect spotting. Did they not warn you about it? 

Blythe - so sorry about your eggs not fertilising, I really don't know what to say but I do think the NHS did let you down as they should have done ICSI. xx

Hope everyone else is doing well I need to back and read all the posts as thread is so fast pacing. :D 

As for me I finally told my acu doc that I am going down to once a week appts. I had spotting at 7 & 9dpo and then from 11dpo and now AF. I have to say that I can never figure out CD1 as the spotting is enough to use a panty liner and I have been told CD1 is first day of full flow. I stress myself out all the time over this as the spotting seem heavy but not full flow. If I did take the heavy spotting as start of AF then that means I have a very short LP but if I took full flow as first day then I have a short period. This really annoys me never knowing but I have started taking b complex to see if it helps. Also I have to say I am disappointed not see a significant difference with my cycle after going to acu twice a week. But I am a very impatient person.


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## Briss

Ladies thanks so much!! Just reading your replies makes me see things in a positive way actually.

Going, you are good! Tbh it might seem obvious to you but I have not realised i was disqualifying the positive re promotion it just seemed obvious that u could not deserve it. A partner wanted to make a thank hoy speech at my appraisal and I just immediately changed the subject cos I felt ucoykd not possibly deserve that. But now when u looked back at my behaviour I think you are right that's exactly what I am doing - disqualifing it! I also think I got thus promotion cos they can't lose me now when everyone in the group is suddenly pregnant :( 

I so love your list of minis. Yesterday I felt like AF started. My heart almost stopped so I went to the bathroom but before checking I did a mini. I am reading a book on mind\body programme and they recommend doing minis in situations like this or when yet another friend announces her pregnancy. It worked actually but luckily it was not AF just more of the brown stuff mixed with my usual creamy cm. 

Blythe, my book says that depression usually peaks between 2-3 years TTC. What's that on line meditation group? I want to find a mind/body group to join, get a body scan CD to release tensions etc. Interestingly I do not think myself depressed cos how else one us supposed to feel? Its a natural reaction to the drama that we go through. Apparently depression of an infertile woman is same as of a terminally ill patient... There were studies on that

Irish, thanks! I am glad my spotting can be just down to hsg and should be back to normal. I am hoping that would be the case. This is the first time I am actually looking forward to AF to clean out this mess. Sometime I also wonder if u get CD 1 right but I can usually count 13/14 days from o


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## gingmg

There was one exercise that was suggested for us to do that I never did so I don't know the outcome, but we were told to write about our fertility journey in a journal for 20 mins every day for at least 4-5 days. Write about anything that comes to mind, get it all out, but the point was to make sure it's for at least 20 mins for at least 4-5 days in a row. I never did it, but she did say we would be surprised at what happened at the end. I am assuming that the first few days of writing are very raw, painful, and angry and I wonder if the last couple of days some insight happens? Like I said I didn't do it so I don't know what she was referring to, but it might be interesting if anyone is interested to see what happens.

Hope you don't mind, but if random things come to mind from the program I might just put them out here in case anyone may find it helpful.


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## Blythe

Irish eyes - like you i am an impatient person. I have started and then stopped acu and herbs 2 or 3 times during the last 4 years but i am sticking with it for now. They say to give it 2 or 3 months to notice changes but some are lucky and see immediate changes....

i went to chat with my Chinese doc today about the failed IVF and she was shocked as my kidney function had been so strong and she was convinced the IVF would work....

I wrote a letter today to the IVF clinic and made my feelings known but i expect nothing back from them. 

spotting....the most frustrating thing. I have been spotting for a few days and today is definitely CD1 as its bright red and i need towels, tampons etc. I expect it to be a little heavier than usual due to IVF meds. sometimes i get heavy spotting but i still do not consider it CD1 until a tampon or towel is required and the flow is fairly constant. In recent months i have noticed that i bleed for a couple of days and then it stops for almost an entire day and night and then starts again for a couple more days but lighter.

Briss - its just an app called insight timer and its cool....i might not do it tonight as i have just eaten a large meal and had a glass on wine but i intend on sitting and listening to the various guided meditations available every day. Its cool as you can join communities and see how many others are meditating at the same time as you.

i brought 'inconceivable' and read it yesterday...i must say i have mixed thoughts on it. Nonetheless, as a result of reading it i brought a bright red bed sheet and intend on eliminating crap from my diet. I also brought 'eat, pray love'....i know its commercial and possibly cheesy but my friend said its a real pick me up and i just think i will feel better for reading it. i Have also reconnected with my fertility yoga teacher and we are doing a Skype session on friday [she is in Oz now] and i have brought her dvd so i intend doing that at least 3 times per week.


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## Briss

Just re read my post oh dear! Bloody autocorrect! I hope you can make sense of it. Typing on my mobile is a nightmare. 

Ging, please post anything else body/mind related that comes to mind. Its so useful! I have been thinking of staring a TTC diary for a while for medicinal purposes but just can't get round to it. I also think what I write here is sort of a diary as well and maybe it's therapeutic.

BTW am really sorry for abracadabra below I am totally useless with phones and have no idea how it happened or how do delete it. Losing my petience with this phone!







iit'sts 








theraputictheraputictherapeutic therapeuticanythin.please.





. 
tgeheraputictheraputic

Blythe, 

Going,Ging,Ging


----------



## Briss

Blythe, I think I will carry on with Dr e for one more cycle unfortunateunfortunately I will be away on CD 2-4 but can't be sure when AF turns up so most likely won't be able to . check my FSH next cycle but if I o early again that would probably be the end of my relationship with ACU. Maybe it's just not for me. I really can't risk my ivf and start drinking with high FSH fsh . I was so inspired when I read inconceivable and was sure my FSH can go down but obviously it does not seem to be working and can't stand wheatgrass juice! I wish I went straight to I've instead of playing with supps etc. I watched the movie eat pray love but was not impressed I am sure the book must be more insightful. Let me known if you like it.I absolutely believe you can and will get pregnant naturally! I just hope soon. 

Your dh is great for doing ACU and considering herbs etc I so wish my GH believed in this but at the moment my own believe is a bit shaky. I hope will get better soon. I actually think we should not be as often as we did cis it done nothing to sperm quality. We have not be bd once this cycle! With the spotting and all I just do not feel like it at all. 

Interesting that your friend got pregnant with short cycles gives me hope but I think her husband must have really good sperm count. I think you are brave meeting with her. I am cutting my pregnant friends off. Dealing with pregnant colkeagues is bad enough.


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## Irish_eyes

Briss - I am the same with typing on my phone here. My phone creates words I never type. :haha:

I am sort of two minds with acu myself. I really thought something significant would be better this month in my cycle especially when he insisted on twice a week acu. But sometimes I think you have to believe in it to reap the benefits I guess. My DH does not believe in it either and there will be no mission getting him to do an appt. Well he sort of believes but he think you should be fix with one appt. :dohh: 

Briss would you just ring up and book an appt depending on your cycle? I have heard there are three times in the cycle that acu is beneficial and I am just wondering how everyone else goes about doing this. My doc books me in for my next appt at my appt.


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## Irish_eyes

Oh and I find that having a journal on here helps especially if I need to go back and look up something. I also go back sometimes to look at my state of mind especially during my IVF process. One thing I do notice is that all the friends that I made around the first days of TTC or even in the later stages with LTTTC have all gotten pregnant and are not around as often. Don't know why I needed to mention that but I do feel as if I am the only one left and its just not working for me.


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## Irish_eyes

Oh and forgot to tell you that I have started taking 300mg of Ubiquinol.


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## alison29

I don't think i am supposed to post links here but my friend had to talk to a counsler because they are using a donor and the counselor suggested "Circle bloom" for fertility mind/ body meditation. They have a free download and some other more involved down loads that you can buy.


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## kits

Going to try to post without passing out. I'm so, so, sooooo exhausted!


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## kits

Heya ladies, sorry but this month is way too crazy. I always go a bit mental in June. We tend to have about 20 product launches at work, actually do stuff for my birthday then it's oh's birthday plus there's the world cup which means I've made 50 pulled sandwiches & 100 buffalo wings to give away during the England matches for free. Then I attempted to do a 20 milles / 20 pubs charity event this weekend. Luckily we had to come back to work so we only ended up doing 14 miles. It was still brutal. And also adjusting to new ACU

I'm exhausted :sleep: :sleep: :sleep: :sleep:

Blythe, have you had a response from the clinic yet? Even if you don't hear back I'm sure it helped get a bit off your chest. Or at least I hope it did. I'm really glad your ACU believes it should have worked & I can't help but have hope that you just might conceive naturally. How long will it take your hubby to recover? Fingers crossed for both!!

Not heard of east pray love but I'll keep an eye out for. I watched what to expect when you're expecting as it was on TV last night.. Meh, it was alright.

Briss, how long have you been with Dr e? 

Grrr... Zzzzz... I'll try to finish after a little snooze....


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## Briss

Irish, I am exactly the same.before joining this thread u was on a couple of others but everyone got pregnant in the end so I was left alone. So sad.

My doc books me for a session every 2-3 weeks. He only works Tuesdays and Thursdays so not much to chose from. 

I an getting annoyed with my book its called conquering infertility mind/body guide to enhancing fertility and coping with infertility. First of all the author constantly refers to us as infertile women.I mean if you keep calling smb infertile 10-20 times per page surely by the end of the book that will be in imprinted on their mind. Also she offered an exercise on cognitive restructuring which made me terribly depressed.ended up crying. She used a statement "if you can't have a biological child you are a worthless failure" as an example to show it's false. You are asked to consider 4 questions. 1 does this thought contribute to your stress. Obviously. 2 where did you learn this thought. And here I realised that the author only considered very limited interpretation on the statement cos her answers include: your mother believes her only value comes from raising children or your husband only judges your success by whether you have children. What nonsense!! How about most human beings have biological or genetic need to procreate to leave something behind when you are gone. Fear of death is another one that cones to mind. Dying childless must be more traumatic. The author does not seem to get it. It upset me that she would think women who TTC are so shallow that having a child is their only way to validate their existence. 3 is this thought logical? Of course it bloody is logical cos it is not just the end of your life it's the end of your entire genetic line basically everyone who lived before you and who contributed to what you are! How is this not logical? 4 is this thought true? She concludes no because there are other means to parenthood. Is she stupid? How raising smb else s child helps with extending your line and making sure you and your parents continue? 

Maybe this cognitive stuff just does not work for me or the truth is if this is so important for me why am still with my dh than just moving to single mum donor sperm route.. 

Dh said it's ironic that book that is supposed to help with stress is actually the source of my stress at least today. I woke feeling happy and ended up crying and feeling depressed after reading it...


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## kits

Never got up again last night, I was so exhausted :blush:

Briss, that sounds like a pretty horrible book, I don't think I would've had a different reaction. I think her method is very flawed and can't help but wonder if she herself has any children.

I didn't realise you had a longing to continue your bloodline so much. I don't have that now so much, I think it'd be a damn shame if we didn't but at least I know it's pretty covered from both sides. However, I felt a really strong obligation to that in my previous relationship so I can relate. I didn't realise others felt it. He was the last of a strong & supposedly historical Scottish bloodline. Looking back I'm pretty glad we didn't have kids, they're not the best of humans & have very bad attitudes and views.

It sounds like that book is having a negative affect instead of a positive one :( do you think you'll keep reading it?

Irish, I noticed that on other boards too & yea it does seem so sad. To be honest I can't seem to relate too much with other boards so I'd like to think I'd stay on this one, sans gloating. Tbh, I'd be too freaked out and would just want to stay within this comfort zone. Anything else I need to release or vent shall go on my journal.

Thanks Allison, going to look into circle bloom when I get some time :)

So I've been feeling a lot better as a whole (even if exhausted). AF hasn't come but at last I was a bit more prepared because last time I had a chemical AF was 3 weeks late & it looks like that's where I'm at now. Which I'm OK with, guess I just need that extra time to heal.

I also think I've been able to 'let go'. It's mainly because I've been so distracted with everything else & the fact that I'm Gemini I think. Maybe even my ACU has helped to. I definitely don't care any less, nor do I want children any less... Farther from the truth. Still want them dearly!!! But I'm not going to let it get me down at all. I've let myself get pretty unhealthy these past few weeks & its time to get healthy & happy again. If I were a zygote, that's the environment I'd most like to thrive in :D

So no more opk, for sure. Still temping & checking cm but it's purely for data collection. Definitely not going to think twice about it.

I have my Chinese herbs recipe, I'll type it out soon in case can't are curious. I do like my new ACU, I get the massage & heat lamp which feels so nice.

I'm also eating by this rule 'if it can run, walk, fly, swim or is green' then I'll eat it. As long as it's from a grass fed local farmer/butcher or organic. It's very paleo like but a bit more. I'll talk more about this soon, still gathering all info. But this to help body & state of mind. 

Time for breakfast now!

Lots of love & :hug: ladies!!!!!


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## kits

OK, here are my Chinese herbs. She told me they're to help with sad & down, bring on AF , overall nourishment.

13.06.14
Sheng di, shan zhu yu, shan yao, fu ling, Tao ren, Hong hua, yi mu cao, chuan xiong, chi shao, Dan shen, xiang fu zi, zhi mu, Huang bai, chai hu.

20.06.14
Then she added the following (to the formula above) because she said my tongue was a bit greasy which she said indicated dampness
Niu zhen zi, xuan shen

I've gotten used to the taste but it's still not pleasant. 

For breakfast I had 2 scrambled eggs & prawns. I would've thrown spinach in but I ran out. I had prawns because they were there. I made chicken fillets for lunch.

I need to eat every 3 hours, which means the 3 meals with snacks in between. But breakfast is the largest meal, lunch is medium & dinner is smallest. For snacks I'm only going to have one of these: carrots or broccoli with hummus (all of it organic or from local farm), nuts, rice cakes or organic yoghurt.

These don't exactly, fly, swim or run, etc. But they're very good snacking options.

The ultimate goal with this is to have a happy life, so I'm really looking forward to it :D


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## alison29

I love your post kit it's so positive! Yes the goal is to be healthy and happy. I have been snacking on rice cakes with natural peanut butter quite a lot. Still going gluten free.
Briss that book does sound terrible, I wouldn't read it anymore if I were you.


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## kits

Thanks Allison :)

Please understand, i'm not trying to push my views or say that I'm better in any way shape or form, I'm just letting you know what's working for me!

Lots of :hug:


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## gingmg

Blythe- funny that you are going to start 'Eat, pray, love'. We are away on a beach vacation this week and that's the book I brought. Always had meant/wanted to read it, but never had. No time like the present.


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## Blythe

gingmg - I'm really enjoying it :) have a lovely break on the beach...me jealous no :wink wink:


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## Irish_eyes

Briss that book sounds horrible. 

Kits I love your positivity. I really hope that the eat health works for you. I tried to do the eat clean diet last year (6 meals a day) but find it tough as my DH is nowhere near a healthy eater and since I do the cooking all the time nights off with a takeaway is bliss although I have been gluten free for nearly a month now and coping ok. I am also doing slimming world, I don't have much to lose but just half a pound off losing a stone. :D


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## kits

Thanks Irish :) trying to be positive, but it isn't always easy. Last night I got pissed off at my oh because he hadn't showered.

Loosing fat will definitely be an awesome bonus as my belly keeps expanding, but this is to mainly bring some balance to my hormone & energy levels. At nights I just crash & during the days I'm exhausted all the time.

This is to help release the right energies at the right times. We shall see. But I think & feel like I have a MAJOR hormone imbalance which is what's causing my baby making issues. And I don't think it's fair to purely invest on the ACU when the rest of my life & nutrition isn't great.


Good luck ladies :hug:


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## kits

Have a brilliant time on your beach holiday ging, thanks again for all your advice!!!


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## kits

Grrrrrr.... Just lost my post :grr:


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## kits

OK, retyping.

Ladies, i'm totally freaking out!!! Don't know what to do, didn't expect this at all : panic: : panic: where's the panic smiley???!

Got a bfp this morning with fmu. I have no idea why I tested, but I did anyhow & it showed bfp! Like within a minute.

But I'm freaking out!!!! I've been taking Chinese herbs & ACU to bring on AF and it's been so long after so many bfn's?!?! We barely had sex. I mean when on earth could it even have conceived?? In fact I argued over that just last night with oh, lack of bd'ing. 

My chart is so whacko.

Plus I've abused my body a bit, I've been tipsy a couple of times & not to mention the 20 miles, 20 pubs crawl I did last weekend. Where I had cider for breakfast! :dohh: It was an intense trek, my muscles were sooo sore i took a freezing cold bath. That must've frozen it!! :cry:

My spinning couldn't have helped. :dohh:

Freaking out.. It's Sunday so no chance of doctor. :nope:

:shrug::shrug::shrug::shrug:



Spoiler
.


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## Blythe

congratulations kits..i was looking at your chart recently and wondering where that positive test was going to show!!! :happydance:

Seriously stop stressing - that is far more harmful than a few pints, some exercise and gentle Chinese herbs! honestly that stuff does not really matter...if you were knocking back tequila shots from 12 weeks onwards then that might cause a problem...

you deserve heeps of happiness and I'm so happy to read your post this morning - well done mrs :hugs:


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## Briss

Kits, I looked at your chart but its so weird not sure what to make of it. Its possible your body was trying go o several times but in the end managed to actually o on CD 15 or cd 26 even. Really hard to say. Any chance you can do blood test tomorrow to check your beta levels? Re drinking etc I am sure it was too early to have any effect on the embryo just try to stick to healthy stuff going forward. Things that supposed to bring on AF do not usually work anyway. Praying for your healthy bean. I so hope this is it for you.


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## Blythe

Briss - have you been on holiday? if so how was it? how was the food etc


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## kits

Really?! Thanks Blythe!! I didn't know that about the Chinese herbs, phew. That makes me feel better.

That's what I was freaking out the most about. That & my cold bath.

I found a clinic in Manchester where I can get bloods so I'll definitely be going there asap. I have to pick up my sister, she's going to love this.


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## kits

Yay, Briss you're back! How was your holiday?? Tell us all about it :D

Thanks, definitely going to get some blood tests done. I found 2 clinics in Manchester so I'm sure either will fit me in.

What are the chances the frer is wrong?

My temps don't impress me much.. I wonder if my thermometer is off by a digit or something. I've felt so warm this cycle & it thinks I'm under temp!


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## Briss

I am still away but have been reading your posts, just not posting much. Just trying to get through this cycle. Interesting this tww in not very different symptoms wise from when we TTC. Same breasts sensitivity - clearly progesterone. Uterine twinges also quite similar. Stupid me. I thought it was implantation... 

I still read that book but cross out bits about "other ways to parenthood" and ignore her attempts at cognitive restructuring. She actually provides some useful advice and info and most importantly she validates how I feel a lot of the time. Most of these things we know from experience unfortunately but somehow it makes me feel better when i read it in a book :) I loved her chapter on "selective avoidance" its basically avoiding people or friendships or situations that cause you pain like pregnant friends or relatives who fail to understand your situations and carry on with painful remarks etc. I have been avoiding them anyway but somehow felt I was "bad" its good to know what I do is basic survival in a very tough situation which is ltttc. She says you can restore list friendships after TTC. I may summarise a few tips from this book when I come back and post it here.


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## kits

Aww.. That's so sweet, taking time from your holiday to nip in!

I'm glad the book has got good points, was worried it was going to have the opposite effect. Look forward to hearing about it when you're back.

I've calmed a bit, had to find my 'happy spot' & hope for the best!


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## kits

Oh and by the way Briss, all of my tww have been different since January! Hope that helps even if a tiny bit?

I have to admit I haven't had much symptoms out of the ordinary, just usual stuff that I always feel. I guess my boobs feel a bit tender but usual lower abdomen pains & nausea has subsided a lot, just got a bit but I think that's from my washing machine's 1400 spin cycle shaking all of the upstairs!!


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## gingmg

Kits- congrats! I hope this is it for you. Don't worry about anything that happened before, it won't effect anything, just be healthy moving forward.

Briss- glad the book turned out to be better than you thought.

Blythe- slow reading here, she just got to India, but am really enjoying the book so far.


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## kits

Just took another hpt, the vertical line showed up pretty much instantly. I saw some girls mention a bad batch of frer's so I thought maybe my morning test could've been one of them.

Well, it's only a Sainsbury's £3.50 (x 2 tests) but it's never given me a positive before. Definitely not during the previous CP's.

So my huge worry now is that my egg was over mature :shrug:

Going to stay positive!! [-o&lt;


Spoiler
.


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## Blythe

If it was over-mature unlikely to fertilise.


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## kits

Oooo.. OK, phew!! Thanks Blythe!

I'm refraining from googling every single little thing. I thought it could've but then lead to issues.

I feel better again :)


:hug:


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## alison29

wow kits that is truly amazing. It's really not a myth that once you relax you get your BFP! congrats keep us posted and I love seeing the positive tests.


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## alison29

I wouldn't worry about the drinking at all you are fine! My SIL on purpose didn't take a pregnancy test because she suspected but wanted to go out drinking that night so took it after. She was and her baby is a completely fine and wonderful one year old now. She also ran up to month 5 (up to five miles a few times a week) pregnancy with all 4 children. She runs fast too 7 minute miles. YOU and baby are FINE!


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## alison29

Geez how many times can I use the word fine :/ Just excited for you Kits is all.


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## kits

Thanks Allison! How have you been?

Hope all had a good Monday :)

Went to the doctors first thing this morning & guess what! She was soo lovely! She didn't even do a pregnancy test, she was happy with all of my tests, I had 5 in total with me (including one from their office that they gave me last time) and I brought them with me to show her as the other gp never believed my bfp even though it was on the clear blue digital! :finger:

So yea what got me is she says they count my CP's as MC's which I thought they didn't :shrug: she said as long as I got a bfp then it was a pregnancy, so because of that she's put a request in for me at the epu to get a scan. Not sure when it'll be, could be a few days or weeks. She's also sending for bloods. I should've gotten them done today but got stuck in major traffic when I picked up my sis & didn't make it :(

Going first thing tomorrow morning & then again on Thursday.

The other thing she said is that they're going to date me depending on first day of my period regardless of my late ovulation :dohh: took a cleat blue digital this afternoon & it said 2-3 weeks. Came up as pregnant immediately!!! But took a few minutes for the timing.

Still staying positive!!


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## Briss

*kits*, excellent news! congratulations! your beta must be high for CB digital to give you 2-3 weeks so it all looks well. I could never understand how they date pregnancies from the first day of the cycle cos it would assume you O on CD 14 as standard which is not always the case.

*afm*, waiting for AF, should turn up today or tomorrow. very happy that the spotting stopped after 4 days, the clinic said it is not at all unusual to have some spotting after a 3D-SIS and DET. they will only be concerned if I feel unwell, have pain or an unusual or offensive discharge or the bleeding is getting heavier. I wonder what my AF will look like next cycle. so far no pre AF spotting which is positive. 

I overdid it with food on my holiday and put on a lot of weight, I was a bit heavier than usual to begin with so I am afraid to weigh myself now. will wait a few days or a week of salads before checking but I can tell I've put on a lot! beach was out of the question cos no bikini looked decent on me so I just went for a swim in the sea in the mornings &#8211; heavenly! We walked a lot sometimes the whole day sightseeing it was exhausting but still did not help my waistline. anyway my BMI is normal so the fact that I do not look pretty is fine as long as we can get pregnant soon! anyway it was great to take a break from work, I guess taking a break from TTC is just impossible cos it's always on my mind. 

I am trying to cut down on coffee and sugars (yet again!), hopefully we can start IVF in a month time so I want to do a bit of cleaning of my insides. I had an alcoholic drink every day on my holiday but I felt It was OK, I do not usually drink at all. kept arguing with Dh over vitamins, he cant stand them but I do feel they help a bit. also, decided to try and do yoga at home and a bit more aerobics before O. will definitely go for more reflexology this month. and of course body/mind thing! I started practicing minis regularly and they do help in stressful situations. basically all good intentions as it usually happens after a holiday, hopefully I can stick to it.


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## smurfy

Briss glad you had a nice break from work, swimming in the sea and new surroundings are always good to help you relax. I get you on the weight front i think when we are LTTC exercise gets restricted and the only nice things to look forward to is some nice food or a meal out especially as we cant really drink. 

I had by egg transfer cancelled last week due to OHSS so currently at home feeling very bored but glad my OHSS to not too bad, i had 15 folicles then increase to 28 they immediately but be on some drugs to miminise OHSS. We have 7 embroys frozen which got to day 5 blasts so now need to wait again to start a frozen cycle - I am so tired of it. looks like we will start in August. I am hoping that we dont need to do another fresh cycle as hope the frozen ones will do the job. at least now i dont have to nag my husband for vitmains etc as i have felt your pain along the way with a partner who also has a low sperm count. FYI out of the 20 eggs which were mature my husbands sperm fetilised 18 by icsis, they all survived past day 3 so i was pretty impressed with that. 

now i need to arrange a few things to look forward to a long weekend in july and hopefully Italy in sept - take care


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## Briss

*smurfy*, I know you are disappointed cos of yet another delay but on the positive side you have 7 embryos, all blasts even!! that's really good result. Fingers crossed your frozen cycle will be successful and you won't need any more stims. are you transferring one or two? btw, 20 eggs/18 fertilised is impressive! what was your DH's morphology? a long weekend away sounds fab! keep us posted on your progress.


----------



## terripeachy

I just wanted to pop in and say congrats to kits! I read along all the time, and I kept looking at your chart and looking at your chart wondering when that line was going to turn green. Enjoy every moment of your pregnancy. :flower:


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## alison29

I've been good. Just had the old O time. Some changes were made these last months so finger crossed. Changes are : dh vitamins and clomid, me gluten free not low carb just high protein not much processed foods because gluten is in most of them. I quit the pregnitude it was making me so gassy all the time. My buy some ovaboost it was fine.
Realized ovulation day is not the (TMI) wettest for me (day after when it seems dry but i guess itsn't) but had surge thursday at 230 and bd thursday night and saturday morning.

Kits do keep us posted on your tests. Progesterone levels is important (duh I know) but i am sure everything you know can get swept up in the excitement and 
we think we trust our drs. I dream about BFPs like yours at night, its true sad but true lol. Are you taking more tests? Feel free to post pics although i don't think your lines could get any darker. The pregnant ladies have a chinese acupuncture thread on pregnancy over 35 I post there sometimes too.

Briss I am so excited for your IVF ! Do be as healthy as possible it's process and every chocolate bar not eaten counts. I have been on the chocolate but turning down all the cakes and cookies around here because of gluten which really helps alot.

Oh and I realized it was flouride toothpaste causing my chin breakouts. If you have them or others around your mouth try it.It looks just like hormonal acne. It literally happened overnight. As it turns out we don't need the flouride so much especially if your city water is flouridated.



I am really excited for my friend at work just had her IUI with specialist with donor sperm. They bought 3 extra vials, iguess the stuff sells quick like hot cakes so if you want any for siblign or another round you best buy head. And guess how much it was for 5 :6000$$$$ holy crap batman.


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## alison29

I am jealous smurfy! You will get knocked up on the FET for sure. I have read about many having that happen.


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## smurfy

Briss said:


> *smurfy*, I know you are disappointed cos of yet another delay but on the positive side you have 7 embryos, all blasts even!! that's really good result. Fingers crossed your frozen cycle will be successful and you won't need any more stims. are you transferring one or two? btw, 20 eggs/18 fertilised is impressive! what was your DH's morphology? a long weekend away sounds fab! keep us posted on your progress.

Hi the last sample we had was approx 6 percent, over a year ago it was around 3 percent he vitamins have helped and reduction in alcohol but he's not a saint. They have said they will transfer 1 for the first transfer thanks


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## Briss

*alison*, I am sorry to hear pregnitude did not work for you. tbh, I could not stick with it either. I loved it - "every chocolate bar not eaten counts"! LOL I did not have coffee today and it was fine. maybe because it's summer I find it easier to drink nettles or mate in the morning. am back to stuffing myself with nuts every time I think about chocolate. I am not going to deprive myself completely but the less I eat of this stuff the better. 

called the clinic today about my IVF and still waiting for them to call me back. not sure yet if the decision has been made. trying to stay positive.

re flouride toothpaste, I actually read that flouride is not as healthy as it was originally thought. apparently it does nothing for our teeth. I changed my toothpaste for the organic one but then had to go back to Aquafresh cos organic one does not really do it and DH complained I was developing bad breath&#8230; I also went back to normal deo cos organic one just did not do its job and I ended up smelling of sweat before the end of the working day&#8230; sorry TMI. I never connected flouride toothpaste to acne actually, it's an interesting thought.

donor sperm costs a lot if you get it at a fertility clinic that's why so many ladies just prefer to meet a donor who quite often provides a sample for free, out of good will&#8230;

*smurfy*, 6% morphology is quite good! well done to your DH.


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## Blythe

organic natural deodorants and toothpaste are a bit pants really.


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## kits

terripeachy said:


> I just wanted to pop in and say congrats to kits! I read along all the time, and I kept looking at your chart and looking at your chart wondering when that line was going to turn green. Enjoy every moment of your pregnancy. :flower:

You're incredibly sweet terripeachy! :hugs: Thanks a lot, here's to hoping all goes smoothly! :D

In all honesty I think I've baffled a lot of people with my chart, especially myself. I genuinely thought I was out & that I was just running late due to last cycle. My ACU couldn't believe it. She was really analyzing my chart last Friday. I kept meaning to test but kept forgetting on fmu for a few days. 

Hope you stick around, tell us about your progress too :)


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## kits

Briss, you better not beat yourself up on your over indulging! That's what your holiday is for, having fun & enjoying life. It sounds like you had an awesome time. Swimming in the sea in the mornings sounds amazing. 

All the natural vitamin D will have done your body real good. Not sure how much time you get to spend outdoors here in sunny Britain but a healthy dose of sun will do wonders. I actually heard on the radio that they did a study where they getting sun was the first natural human addiction because all the goodness it makes you feel inside. It was only just radio but still, makes sense.

If you like to cook I can give a recipe for a healthy sweet snack that you may want to try when you get your little cravings. BTW, you may already know this but it's tree nuts that are the better option, not peanuts. And of course carrot sticks or broccoli florets + hummus are a very good snack.

Enjoy your tea, where do you get your mate from? I'm wondering if it's the same thing I'm thinking of which is a typical drink from Argentina. Tea leaves in hot water drunk through a flat head straw with holes?

Smurfy, I'm also sorry to hear about your set back but it does sound like you got really good results. Stay positive! Good things will come :D

Allison, is it taking a lot of discipline to stay gluten free? It sounds like we're on very similar nutritional paths, I think? My regular breakfast consists of an egg & spinach omelette along with bacon. Snack time carrots & broccoli with hummus or yoghurt, lunch time chicken. Afternoon snack nuts or almond (or peanut butter if I'm indulging) butter on rice cakes. For dinner I'm usually not that hungry so maybe a bit of meat or just a bit more yoghurt whatever is easy & around. I feel sooooo much better for it. Day runs nicer, energy levels are pretty good, tummy is very happy, regular poo (there's no tmi in TTC!) & I just don't get real cravings or hungry. If for any reason I get a craving then I save it for cheat day :D


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## kits

As for me.. Well I haven't taken my bloods yet. I know it sounds crazy but my sis & oh (they're tag teaming against me! :haha: ) have talked me into not rushing & panicking over things. I know I have a bit of history but I understand what they're saying & it does feel better to not obsess. I am however going this morning, heh.

I did take another frer yesterday & my line was darker so that brought me more at peace :)

I also would like to see if you ladies are OK with me still hanging out over here. Feel so much closer & comfy here. I'll linger elsewhere from time to time, but your my girls!!

Promise not to gloat too much! But totally understand if you'd rather me stay away.


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## kits

alison29 said:


> Realized ovulation day is not the (TMI) wettest for me (day after when it seems dry but i guess itsn't) but had surge thursday at 230 and bd thursday night and saturday morning

Have you tried grapefruit juice? It helps some women with cm for ovulation. I was drier than usual towards the beginning of my cycle but as soon as I started my new aco on 13.06.14 I immediately started getting a lot more cm.


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## kits

Here are my tests!
 



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## kits

Here are my tests!

View attachment 780613


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## alison29

Really i found a deodarant that works! It's call trulys and it is made from coconut oil, sugar and baking soda. I am not kidding I live in Florida and I am fresh all day. You could read the reviews on amazon too. Its better then the womens stuff i used. Do you guys have flouride in your water in UK? I know some places have banned it because of studies of being toxic to animals etc..


Briss i hate those cravings ugh yeah i have eaten way too many nuts this past six months. Thats great about the coffee too. I am keeping mine to 80 mg of caff for now (less then a cup of coffee).

Yes your clinic will let you in ! You are only 38 right? A spring chicken.

Thank god friend used a friends donation for the two years they were trying on their own or they would be BROKE but she had stage 4 endo and PCOS and didn't know it so at least she is all fixed up and she is the one on the Keto diet which really is of benefit if you are PCOS lady. ok i am off the look at kits tests.


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## alison29

Beautiful tests Kits ! no stupid chemical for you this time around. I think when I get a BFP i will obsessively put the times and dates on the sticks like i have seen a lot of poas holics do. I need to buy some at dollar store.

So will you keep testing? My friend said she was allowing herself one test a week until her 7-8 week ultrasound. It just doensn't seem real I bet.


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## alison29

I will try the grapefruit juice next cycle. Do i have to drink it everyday or just the days i want more cm?


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## alison29

Please stay kits :) gloat all you want too. You have earned it. And just because you really wanted to be pregnant doesn't make the feeling like sh-t part any less so complain away too. I got sick around 5.5-6 wks all day nausea it's lovely but it helps you not to gain weight so the is a silver lining haha. Since then i have read about vitamin b6 and high protein to help nausea IDK if either works though.


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## kits

Thanks Allison :) I wouldn't anyhow tbh, at this point every time I pee I celebrate the lack of blood or spotting! Gonna try not to poss until end of next week on my cb digital to see what it says & then week after on my frer for line comparison, heh.

Staying positive, but realistic. Got first set of bloods yesterday, may be a few hours before I get the results. Not sure why but I got a bit anxious & nauseous when they were about to draw. It was weird because all the other needles I'm used to?

I also have a hospital appointment tomorrow & I'm getting my first scan. Can't say I'm looking forward to it. I don't totally trust that t/v scans at this early in the game are safe. I'm worried that it'll cause me to start spotting & begin a downhill battle :shrug:

It's also way too early to see anything. When the nurse rang me she told me it will be a bit difficult to see if my progesterone levels or anything else are on schedule because they don't have before conception to compare, etc. but they'll try their best.

I told her I literally had booked my first appointment with my gp to begin the investigating process like 3 days before I got my bfp. 

I also finally confirmed my ongoing suspicion this morning :grr: my bbt thermometer is off. I took my temp & got 36.34 but I found my regular boots digital thermometer & when I took the temp it read 36.6. So, who knows :shrug: I just want to hit that 37 degree so my embryo can be in a comfortable, warm environment!

Apart from that I'm still trying to remain calm & positive, even though I find myself very touchy. I almost cried when the nurse rang me about my appointment & when my sis made fun of me over pregnancy books I bought.


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## kits

Sorry if my post is insensitive to anyone


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## somedayisnow

kits, we don't know each other but I'm happy for you. Your BFP gives me hope that it can happen for me too. :baby: Good luck with your scan. :thumbup:


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## alison29

Aw I hate teasing. A great moment for me in self deveopment was when I realized that I didn't care about my older sisters 'approval. I worried so much I heard them makng fun of everyone, really quite mean. I have 3 older ones. Did not offend me :) Post your stats too from your bloods and stuff. 
Pregnancy hormones can make a person irritable. If there was a way to take soemthing wrong I would and did. Maybe try meditating it helps shut up that mind chatter before it becomes unhinged. I am loving the updates.

Afm It's our Indepence day here tomorrow. WE are having a bunch of family in on Saturday off from work tomorrow. Me and my kids will have fun making the dips and brownies and breakfast casserole. I hope dh doesn't drop the ball he is supposed to be taking care of the barbeque food. Must meditate to stop mind chatter ahh. Borrowing worries if he doesn't order ahead he will just have to cook everything at the grill at our house.
5 dpo


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## kits

Mmmmm.... BBQ! Droooool. I love BBQ's :D and happy Canada day!

Haven't received my progesterone levels yet (NHS :coffee: ) but my hcg are back & they're at 365. Gonna get my blood taken again tomorrow at the hospital & hopefully those numbers are headed in the right direction.


Lots of :hug: ladies!


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## alison29

That sounds great Kits thanks for updating. I guess i am the only thread stalker right now.


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## kits

Sorry for clearing the room :/

Hope everyone is well!

I got progesterone results from Wednesday, 51.1 mu. Google is by no means helping me figure out if that's any good or not.

They had me booked into a regular ultrasound this morning so they obviously couldn't see anything except that my lining in my uterus was thickening. Which made me pretty happy. I was wondering if my lining was ok after such a late ovulation.

Going in for another scan on Friday.


Loads of :hug: ladies!


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## Blythe

Kits - good to read it is all going well :flower:

Briss - hope you are well. Have you heard about any dates for IVF? i have 2 x bottles of buserelin and bag of needles. If they are part of your protocol let me know and you can have these for nothing. This is my first cycle post IVF and i am still waiting for a positive OPK on CD13 which is rather frustrating. I have for the first time in 4 years started checking my cervix and its rather fascinating....im still not quite sure what it is happening up there. Its so ridiculous but I honestly cannot remember learning about my body when i was younger...well not the inside bits. I knew there was a womb with a couple of bits coming off it but i just had no clue. Anyhow, it feels closed and I'm hoping for some changes soon. I can't have another cycle with no hope of conception.

i wrote a letter to my clinic two weeks ago and they still have not replied...thats a bit crap isn't it. 

i see you are still on the herbs...im glad to see this


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## Irish_eyes

Hi everyone :hi:

OMG Kits...congratulations!!! Here is to a happy and healthy 9 months. 

Hope everyone else is doing well. 

I just wanted to ask about the herbal medicines that your acu gives you. I get Nuan Gong Yun Zi Wan and Xiao Yao Wan and I take 6 pills each every day. This week he didn't give me Xiao Yao Wan but Jin Kui Shen Qi. He didn't explain to me why he gave it (he hardly talks anyway) so was just wondering if any of you knew what it was for and also what herbs do you all get?


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## Briss

*kits*, looks like everything is going well, your progesterone levels are normal so fingers crossed for H&H 9 months. 

*Irish*, I was taking Xiao Yao Wan (in powder form) in the mornings with my different doc last year, pretty nasty stuff I must say I barely managed to force myself to drink it. I think it was to deal with my heat but Jazzbird can tell you much more. 

*Blythe*, cant stalk your chart so not sure if you got the positive OPK already, hopefully soon. It's frustrating waiting for your cycle to get back to normal after the IVF. but you never know I have seen ladies getting lucky with very messed up cycles after failed IVF. I so hope it'll happen for you soon. I am not surprised your clinic did not respond to your letter but I hope the letter had therapeutic effect and helped you deal with the way you were treated. btw, thats so much for offering your meds! that's very kind. let's see what my protocol is then I will know what I am supposed to be taking. well done on checking your cervix, I am sure it provides wealth of information. I was never able to do that unfortunately, for some reason I just cant go in there I do not even use tampons anything in there irritates me terrible unless of course it serves a useful purpose :) I do wish I leant about this stuff when I was younger. I keep thinking if I ever have a daughter there is so much I can tell her and teach her but then I start crying obviously 

*afm*, sorry ladies I did not post much I was away again and it was pretty intense so I could not even pop in here for a minute. AF treated me horribly this cycle, it's very wrong - much lighter than usual not a single "heavy day", probably lining was not good last cycle cos I ovulated so early there was no time for it to grow properly. besides I had a terrible headache on CD1 which sometimes happen and I started vomiting (which also happens when headache is particularly bad but usually that's where thing get better, not this time I was vomiting on and off the entire day even if I just drank a bit of water I could not keep it down, it got so bad that at one point I was not even able to make it to the toilet and vomited in my own office at this point I went home and barely made it to my flat. It was horrifying cos I was facing 6 hour flight the next morning followed by a set of meetings and my presentation. Could not cancel it. Luckily it got better and I managed to fell asleep. I cant even understand why it happened, I had herbs in the morning. some red clover tea (was trying to quit coffee but my attempt failed after that) and my usual porridge, nothing else. Unfortunately I could not carry on with the herbs this cycle cos I was just afraid they could trigger another attack  the last thing I need at a business meeting. I will carefully observe my cycle and see if I want to carry on with acu/herbs next cycle. I am constantly questioning whether they do me any good. 

my clinic has not obtained the funding yet and have not decided on the protocol. I was told it may take 3 months. cant believe this! on the other hand I am so not ready for IVF, I am still feeling rather shaky and not sure what's happening with my cycle and my FSH. I was away and could not do the test this cycle. 

Cant keep DH from beer anymore he totally lost any motivation after this bad result. I am disappointed beyond belief 

I spent Sunday with my relatives and it was just awful, all my cousins' children have children which makes me a grandmother, sort of and everyone keeps asking me what it is that I am waiting for and trying to give me advice. They are my family and they love me but it was just so hard. there is no way I can discuss my situation with them, even the ones who had issues and went on to have IVf got lucky on their first attempt (because they were 20!) and they have no idea that we have sperm issue, it's inconceivable for them that men can have any kind of relation to problems with getting pregnant. they kept asking me what my gynaecological issue is.. I just smiled and changed subject every single time. I know they mean well (most of them at least).

My weight is getting out of control, I put on a lot more in the last month and it shows. relatives were taking some pictures and when I saw myself I was horrified I did not even notice how quickly I changed, my face stopped being cute when I put on weight and I look older. my arms are the size of my legs when I am slimmer. I cant be bothered to diet, I just want to be pregnant!


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## alison29

So how did the scan go on Friday Kits? Your progesterone levels sound great really high!

Briss: that af sounds awful it does make me suspicious of possible reactions to the herbs causing the differences. I can't imagine having to travel and give presentations alot I hate doing it my mouth completely dries out ot the point where my lips feel like they are stuck on my gums like a horsewoman. Have that image of your self while you are trying to sound knowledgeable and it's pretty distracting :)
UGH with dh mine recently bought some rum. I told him to be careful of the downward spiral to 20 ounces in one cup with a splash of diet coke.
The fourth was a lot of fun and work since we were hosting. My kids had a blast with their cousins so it was all worth it. Briss I understand how frustrating the questioning of relatives about your reproductive status can be. One time my SIL suggested that my dh get a vasectomomy (as she was 5 months pregnant with her woopsy who is now 18 months and her dh still is not fixed) . This visit my FIL was saying how it's our turn to have the next baby. To which he got silence from us. I mean he knows we had problems the first time probably thinks he was yanking our chain because who would want more than 2 children right? 

Briss is your dh still taking vitamins? I just ordered adam multivitamin from now foods for my dh. I am tired of the huge supplement bills you know? IT gets old. Adam seem ed pretty great for the low cost.


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## Blythe

i have posted link to chart...i don't think i am going to ovulate this cycle. It could be the IVF or it could be a new supplement i was taking...i have bind them now. It was a female fertility blend but then i noticed it had vitex in it....stupid girl. i can only hope it will delay ovulation but there is no sign at all of it so i just have to hope it returns next month.

My period was relatively light this cycle...the same as usual really. It is certainly much lighter than it was in my late 30s....my lining was checked during the IVF and i was told it was excellent so I'm no longer worried about my light periods.

My DH is now taking Chinese herbs blended for him twice a day as well as a tonne of supplements....maybe this will help although would be better if there was an egg to fertilise! with all the IVF meds and stoping/starting this year i have only ovulated 2/3 times so i am really keen to get back into swing of TTC naturally. 

Briss - well done on the presentation....what a relief to get the sickness sorted before that. How horrid for you to be sick in the office....

i am barely keeping it together so trying every resource i can to keep from going under. i am hoping my fertility yoga dvd turns up tomorrow so i can start with that. I am also beginning each day with manifesting my life as i want it. I have enormous issues with this stuff as we have discussed before but my yoga teacher is fully focused on this stuff and i just have to do something. I have also started doing some arm weights in the morning before i go to work....my body is so untoned that i need to do something. I want to feel and look like a strong warrior not a tubby old lady.

Briss - i am sorry about the family day and the questions....its so hard. Please keep moving forward and just wading through it. you will get there and you will be happy :flower:

Irish eyes - i was on powdered herbs for ages and will be again when i can face going back to acu. I'm afraid i do not know what they were. So are you only taking 12 pills in total? i have taken loads of pills in the past though and remember taking 6 3 x per day [or something ridiculous like that]. i used to take Xiao Yao Wan for both fertility and previously for being sad ....they are quite good...they call them happy pills :)

How are you? How is the acu going?


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## Irish_eyes

Hi Blythe 

I am taking 6 x Xiao Yao Wan and 6 x Nuan Gong Yun Zi but the Xiao Yao Wan was replaced with the other herbal pills. So glad I don't have to take the powder form. 

I am not 100% certain how I feel about acu. Sometimes I find it sore and just can't wait for it to be over and other times it's relaxing. I am going once a week now and still don't have much conversation with the acu doc so not sure of my progression. I am not even sure of it either but I did O two days earlier this month than last month but I have also started taking b vits again which could have done that.


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## Briss

*Irish*, I also sometimes find acu painful particularly with Chinese practitioners but my correct doc is very careful and I usually do not feel the needles and can just relax. I like our sessions cos I can discuss things and ask questions I just wish I could see it working. 

*alison*, I am not sure I can blame my sickness on herbs cos I have been taking them for 3 months now and this is the first time i felt this bad but I do feel it was related to my headache and the headache was caused by hormonal changes at the start of the cycle - liver q stagnation &#8211; which the herbs were supposed to help with but clearly something is not working. I am still feeling not 100% well and have constant mild headache and dizziness. My blood pressure is low so I am back to my morning cappuccinos. I also hate presentations, am terrible at public speaking unless I am well prepared but I was just lucky that horrible vomiting stopped and I was able to prepare for the meetings during the flight. We are still having issues with Dh's vitamins, he is refusing to take them so it's a struggle every morning and sometimes I lose and he goes vitamin free for a few days. I know what you mean re cost of supps, I think I already paid for full on stim IVF in vitamins for the last few years 

*Blythe*, it's frustrating that you still have not got a positive OPK but at least your temp looks nice and steady. I hope you will O soon. you did mention before how vitex can screw up your cycle I hope the dose was low to have such detrimental effect and your body is just taking a bit more time to regulate itself. I am really impressed with your DH!! how's his back? 

Being sick in the office was just horrible, I was lucky I was on my own and I just had time to shut the door and grab a pot (now I know why I have plants in my office) so it did not go to the floor&#8230; 

I know how you feel and at times I just do not know where to get the strength to carry on. I feel like I lost my freedom I am effectively a slave to TTC but I cannot give up. Just had another issue with that book I was reading. this time it was a chapter on religion that set me off. Basically the author said that unless you are able to give in and accept that God knows best (and it's possible that it's for the best that you do not have children) you do not have faith. I have very complex relationship with religion and faith I am never sure I always question things but I guess based on this book I have no faith cos this is one thing I cannot accept.

what kind of arm weights are you doing? I really need something to tone my arms they are just horribly flabby. I find it so hard to make myself to do anything. while I read the book I think I am so motivated as soon as I get home I will do my yoga, I will meditate and do this and that but in reality I do not even have any energy to unpack my bags or clean up the house I just veg on my sofa all evening and maybe read a little but that's all. I need to think how to break this pattern.


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## Blythe

Irish Eyes - its really hard to stick with something when you cannot feel/see any noticeable changes. Its also quite difficult to assess whether things are going in the right direction if there is not much dialogue between patient and practitioner. Is your practitioner Chinese? How long is your usual cycle? I have also had some very uncomfortable [sometimes painful] acu....i am going next week for my last session with one of the ladies i see. She charges too much and it just really hurts....she puts the needles in so deep and has a way of inserting them that makes me wince. She will then proceed to pull them in and out and twist them around at least 3 times in the session. She says this is what makes it work better. I love her because i think she is quite compassionate but i cannot justify spending on her sessions anymore...also her english is not good enough for us to really discuss whats going on....after trying to explain i was doing IVF she still did not understand what i was talking about. Her massages are amazing though.

Briss - these are my arm weights:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/like/111...f11=ICEP3.0.0&ff12=67&ff13=80&ff14=108&ff19=0

i just pick them up for about 2 mins in the morning and in the evening and i feel stronger and more toned already....get some!!

i really love my 'insight timer' app...the headspace one is also good. I sit on my bedroom floor in the morning or evening and set the timer for at least 5 mins and close my eyes and either listen to one of the guided meditations or listen to another app 'relax M.O.P' which has mediation sound waves on it....you can have both apps on at same time. The meditation sounds are basically deep white noise sort of thing which drowns out any thoughts and the binaural beats apparently influence the brain through the entrainment of brainwaves. I don't know what that last bit means but i copied it off the app info.

i set myself small targets because quite frankly anything that takes more than 5 mins commitment is likely to be skipped. Although i am going to do the fertility yoga when the dvd comes.

Briss - i brought some of the COQ10 you have been using and they are whoppers. It is strange that the solgar ones which are also 100mg and ubiquinol and tiny compared to these. It's not just yours that are huge as i have had others that are big too. I wonder if there is some filler oil in them.

today i had some ewcm and then i checked my cervix and it was slightly open and higher and softer.....i was so happy. I got home and still negative opk....i then looked at the one i did this morning and it is darker [not as dark as the cover of the positive opk on the box though....they are from boots and it is the first time i have used them. Not impressed so far as it takes ages for the lines to be clear to me]. I may take this mornings as a positive depending on if tomorrows is also negative and if i get a temp rise. I am going to try and use the happiness i felt earlier and try and replicate it in my morning manifesting session [no more than 3 mins!]...i so struggle to feel pure joy when doing them. You are meant to feel all the sensations, and smell everything. i struggle to really be in the picture and find myself observing it....i hope it will get easier.

DH received the results of his MRI and he has to have an operation.....he is going to the hospital again later this week. He has been having acupuncture and massage every week and is now mobile and managing the pain. He is cycling too....obsessed by the tour de france!


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## kits

Hello!

Blythe, sucks that hubby is going to need an operation, but I hope it sorts him out good & proper. It's good to hear that he's in such good spirits, back to cycling & that the ACU is working for him. My ACU always tells me that it works so much more effectively when you have a pain & diagnosis that you can target specifically. 

I'm so going to start lifting dumbbells. My arms are so weak & flabby. They were starting to get that teeny bit toned while I was spinning, but of course I'm not doing that anymore. I just didn't think doing dumbbells worked, so thanks a lot for that tip!

I have to admit, opk's didn't quite work for me. At least I don't think they did because I had such a funky cycle. But I can totally understand your frustration.

So are you & hubby able to bd? Sounds like it's a good time!!

Briss, I seriously cannot believe all that you go through!! How are your headaches? You have such a strong character to have been able to go through your presentation. I wouldn't have. I would've quit my job, I am horrible at public speaking (straight up phobia) and to have gone through with it the way you did, wow. Loads & loads of :hugs:

I'm also so sorry you feel you've become a slave to TTC & all you other ladies that do as well. I really, truly hope that good news can come your way, soon. 

I know you're also pretty heart broken about your hubby's drinking & not taking his vitamins. Maybe this is the only way he can cope with the situation you're in. From his point of view I can only imagine him feeling less manly. Not that it helps at all.. I've had to preach about the importance of my oh sperm all the time. I think he struggled to see me so upset with our failed attempts that he gave in. But all I could get him to do is take conception pills every now & then plus this powder from protein works. He says it tastes alright so he drank it a lot

https://www.theproteinworks.com/super-greens-2914.html


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## kits

Irish, here's the info on the herbs I was taking. Genuinely think my first week batch was the best as I felt very happy & giddy. After she tweaked the formula a bit it didn't have as much affect on giddiness but I'm hoping it still provided good nourishment. Her main points of treatment have always been on my back & head. As she puts it 'need to remove stress, cloudiness & obsession with baby'

OK, here are my Chinese herbs. She told me they're to help with sad & down, bring on AF , overall nourishment.

13.06.14
Sheng di, shan zhu yu, shan yao, fu ling, Tao ren, Hong hua, yi mu cao, chuan xiong, chi shao, Dan shen, xiang fu zi, zhi mu, Huang bai, chai hu.

20.06.14
Then she added the following (to the formula above) because she said my tongue was a bit greasy which she said indicated dampness
Niu zhen zi, xuan shen

I'm totally off herbs now. However my sis is having a few sessions while visiting & she's on what they call 'happy pills', they're little black round pills. Like papaya seeds. She's terrible at taking them on time or regularly so I'm not sure how much of an affect they're having!

Jazzbird may be able to help if you have any questions, although she's due in a few weeks so may not be around as much.

It sucks feel you're not getting results. Do you get needles only on your front? I'm so happy with my new lady. Some of my needles hurt, others don't. She does twist around a couple, but nothing I can't handle. She always uses the heat & does the massage. When it's done I feel total zen heaven.

I've only had one ultrasound last Friday which showed the my uterus had thickened.

I'm going in for a TV scan this Friday where I will hopefully see a sac. Fingers crossed. So far I'm feeling a lot better, more positive with this bean. No extreme pains or discomforts. But enough to let me know something is still occurring. I'm so lazy & sleepy. The weirdest thing I've gotten a couple of cravings for sweet stuff like cake & nougats. I've not given in though!! I've been trying so hard to be healthy! :grr: :haha:

It's been good to see everyone is back, although I'm very sorry about everything you're all going through.

Loads of :hug:


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## Briss

*Blythe*, your arm weights look cute! My Dh got me the ones that you can wear on your hands and ankles. I thought I could do J Fonda class while wearing them. again, all down to motivation. hate myself and yet as soon as I get home I can only manage to get to my sofa, I have not even unpacked yet.

I got myself the second CD with IVF meditation from ZW but I only did it once. it's only 20 min and yet I cant find the time&#8230; I need to get more serious about these things I am sure they will make a bit of difference to my stress levels. I used to do fertility yoga at least once a week but found it hard and was never sure I did it correctly. DH was laughing saying my poses look nothing like what the lady was doing on my DVD but still I am sure with time it can get better 

agreed, those COQ10s are huge and DH is refusing to take them so luckily we have the solgar brand that I can trick him with. I stoped all vitamins when I was sick and tbh I am still not 100% back to normal and even though I am carrying my vitamin cocktail to work every day I just cant take it, every time I look at them my body tells me it might get sick again 

OPKs are hard to read sometimes, I was never 100% sure whether it was a positive. I find it so much easier with CBFM. it's so lovely to see some ewcm, isn't it! makes you feel so much better. This cycle is also weird cos I have no sex drive. it's so unusual for me, by CD8 I am usually struggling with horn but this cycle I do not even think about it, it's so quiet.

I am sorry your DH will have to go through an operation but hopefully this will help and he can go pain free. I so feel for people who have to manage pain all the time, it's just completely different quality of life. I was recovering after a major surgery a few years back and I remember really struggling with constant pain but there was limited number of injections allowed a day. my pain was on at least a few hours before each injection and it was just horrible, I could not think of anything but getting that injection 

*kits*, thanks! my headache is still there but it's not as strong. not sure what's going on tbh. I started checking my blood pressure daily, like an old lady! Good luck with your scan!! 

*afm*, had my acu and Dr E looked disappointed that I was not taking the herbs this cycle but I think he understood I just could not. he said no point taking them now cos their main function is for Cd2-Cd7. I had the usual points. we briefly discussed IVF and he said he has an acu plan for each protocol so depending on that I may need 6-7 sessions throughout the cycle which I am fine with. he also said he does not think I need to take herbs during IVF.

I finally weighted myself and was quite disappointed for obvious reasons.


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## Briss

I am devastated, got PEAk this morning on CD9 :( it's happening again exactly the same thing as last month early O - shorter cycle, my FSH is probably sky high. second cycle in a row what's happening??? this is totally new and so devastating. I cant think of anything I did differently recently except herbs/acu. could they be having a totally different effect and instead pushing me into early menopause? IVF is impossible with such high FSH. I guess all that headache and vomiting was hormones related and something is very wrong. My head is spinning but I cant figure out what's going on


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## Briss

One thing that Dr E may not be getting right is the fact that high FSH causes early O and that's a sign of aging. In his view this scenario does not mean that my FSH is age related which was my hope but the more I read the more it seems obvious that that's exactly how aging works and that's what probably happening to me now. ovulation on Cd10 is a serious issue and I am not sure if his herbs are playing their part in this change but I think they are not helping the situation. 

" _In early perimenopause most women are still ovulating. One of the first changes you might notice is the shortening of your menstrual cycle from an average of 28 to 30 days to an average of 21 to 24 days. During this time the first half of your cycle, the follicular phase, is shrinking from an average of 14 days to just 10. Your ovaries are becoming less sensitive to follicle stimulating hormone or FSH (which stimulates follicles to begin developing and producing oestrogen), so your pituitary gland has to pump out more to get a response. This high FSH level makes you ovulate sooner than before. Shortening of the second half of your cycle, the luteal phase, may follow later in perimenopause. In the end stage of perimenopause, when your ovaries run out of eggs, you&#8217;ll stop ovulating altogether and your cycles will lengthen and ultimately cease. _"

I think I need to make a decision whether to carry on with Dr E or not. I am very concerned having such high FSH levels when we are hoping for a stim IVF I really do not want to screw it. basically the facts are: I have had regular acupuncture since March so about 4 months. I also had herbs for 3 cycles: (i) 25 days &#8211; my short cycle with O on Cd11 which I was hoping to lengthen with TCM; (ii) perfect 27 days cycle with O on CD13; (iii) super short 24 day cycle with O on CD10 &#8211; unprecedentedly early even for me; (iv) same as (iii) but no herbs this cycle. Can we draw any conclusion from this? I should think 3 months of herbs and 4 month of acu should make a difference and what I see is the exact opposite of what we were trying to achieve. it's possible that this is just a natural decline in fertility and herbs/acu are not playing any role in it but then if they are not helping do I really need to carry on with it? My fear is that acu/herbs are actually playing some role in this havoc because I TCM just never worked for me and with previous doc I also got short cycles while on herbs but it was a little better in a away that my LP was shorter at 13 days rather than ovulating early. Maybe I am just not suited for TCM? I cant make up my mind cos my instinct is to give up TCM but when I talk to dr E it all seems fine and that we are doing the right thing but then I am always in doubt.


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## Jazzbird

Hi Briss - I'm sorry to read your post. I really feel for you - you've been going through this for so long. I doubt very much that herbs/acu are having a detrimental affect. You had 4 cycles, 3 of which were with herbs. The first one you can't count as herbs take time to build up. Second cycle was fantastic. Third cycle was not so great and fourth (without herbs) was not great.

Lifestyle will definitely affect ovulation - there are so many other factors that could increase heat in your body to make you ovulate earlier. Stress at work, working long hours, the stress of finding out OH sperm has not improved. Stress creates stagnation, stagnation creates heat, heat causes premature ovulation. Working long hours burns up yin, lack of yin creates heat.

Have you been taking other supplements or done anything differently in your last 2 cycles? Has anything significant happened to you? I feel it's important to point out that the efficacy of supplements other than chinese herbs should also be considered. I'm always amazed at how many supplements people will take off the internet and not consider that these too might have an adverse effect. It's not just the supplement but the synergistic relationship with other supplements and chinese herbs.

I would have a frank, open and honest discussion with Dr E - tell him you are losing faith in herbs/acu - express how you feel it might even be making your condition worse. Hopefully he can reassure you.

I am so sorry you are struggling so much - it just isn't fair.


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## Briss

*Jazzbird*, thanks for your thought! always appreciate it! I am just so frustrated and lost. whatever I do things are just getting worse. but this is the first time when my cycle is so desperately bad. I was upset that my O moved to CD 11 after I had that bloody lap two years ago but having O at CD 10 is just way too bad. I've been thinking of other factors but tbh I cant think of anything I have not done before. My stress levels have been much better than they were last couple of years cos of my fear of developing thyroid issue I just do not let myself go with emotions as I did in the past and I do regular minis when I feel I am about to explode and it helps so much to calm down. I may have an occasional episode but previously it was a regular thing for me to break down, not anymore. My work hours are really good and have been Ok for over a year now. I also showed my list of supps to dr E and he said nothing on the list looked suspicious and they will work well with his herbs. but tbh, I have not been taking my supps regularly so I do not think they can have any effect. the only new thing was iron which I took for a couple of weeks a month or so ago but doubt it had much effect. I obviously had the procedures last month dummy ET and HSG but I ovulated before that last month and do not think they can affect my FSH levels. I spent about 2 weeks in hot climate but again my first early ovulation was before we went on holiday. and anyway my trip to NZ/Australia did not screw my O like that so a little sun in Europe should not be an issue. I put on a little more weight in the last 2 months but still size 10 (sort of) and not heavier than I was last year. not sure what else?

don't you think my 3rd and 4th months after starting herbs are the months when the herbs should start having the effect? they usually say you will see the results after 3 months so here we are? except for the herbs the only other explanation I can think of is that my body is going into early menopause.

trying to be positive but it's just so hard, I now wish we went on with another IVf privately and sooner rather than waiting for the NHS. With FSh going up so quickly I may have missed my last opportunity &#8230; I have 2 more months to have the first child at 38. my chances for the second child just look non existent unless I get pregnant now. I waited and waited patiently for DH's sperm to improve for my FSH levels to go down and things just got worse so seems like all that time was wasted, eggs lost


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## Jazzbird

Yes you are right; I would hope to be seeing a difference now with your cycles although you have had a month off herbs. What does Dr E say? I think it's very important for you to discuss timelines especially your concerns regarding making things worse. He most likely won't continue treating you if he doesn't believe that his treatment will work. Did he set a timeframe?

The dummy ET and HSG might have disturbed things - it might be that you had a small infection. I'm not sure if an x ray is considered heat producing in chinese medical terms - but thinking of radiation and it's effect it probably is heat producing. 

I remember my cycles improving with acu/herbs but I would still have random long cycles here and there. Cycles do vary and sometimes with no good reason. Perhaps you just had a couple of iffy eggs. I would still hold on to your perfect cycle you had and remember that it is possible - try to focus on that one magic cycle and know your body managed it perfectly. 

Do you know for sure your fsh has gone up recently and rapidly or is this based on your ovulation timing? I know it's so so hard but you mustn't draw such devastating conclusions - all it does is send you into depression and panic which will make things worse. I know everyone is different but you are still only 38. You've had a great cycle very recently.

My advice is to speak to dr E very openly and discuss a revised plan of action with a timeline. 

I am thinking of you and truly feel for you. It must be like being stuck in a perpetual state of never ending grief.


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## Blythe

Briss - sorry to read your post. I know how upsetting it is when our cycles don't do what they usually do....it must be especially upsetting when one follows another. BUT, next cycle could be ok and hell, this cycle could be the one. 

i wish i knew enough to give you words of reassurance. As Jazzbird has already said I'm sure Dr E will have something to say and you can then make a decision as to whether to continue or not.


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## Briss

Jazzbird, last cycle my FSH was exceptionally high and my estrogen was also uncommonly high and I ovulated early. Dr E said my early ovulation is due to such high FSH. this cycle is exactly the same and even though I did not check my fsh this cycle I am quite sure it's very high. Dr E said his herbs are exactly to treat situations like that when high FSH causes early ovulation but why did it not work last months then? I did not ask cos I just thought it's a one off bad cycle but when the same is happening now I am beginning to think there must be a reason. I am seeing Dr E in a couple of weeks and can ask him but I am sure he will find a way to explain. he was the same with my pre AF spotting, he did not see anything wrong with it even though I am sure it was not nothing. I am glad things improved on this front but frankly I'd swap early O on pre AF spotting any day. I think early O is a far more serious issues particularly when we are doing this treatment specifically to target this issue.


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## somedayisnow

I'm trying to be optimistic here but I just got my AMH results back and it's bad. .65 which means I have low ovarian reserve. Not surprising since I'm 41.5 but still saddens me. Sigh. Alrighty then, I'm just going to have to pick myself up and hope for at least one good quality egg to meet one good quality sperm.


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## smurfy

somedayisnow said:


> I'm trying to be optimistic here but I just got my AMH results back and it's bad. .65 which means I have low ovarian reserve. Not surprising since I'm 41.5 but still saddens me. Sigh. Alrighty then, I'm just going to have to pick myself up and hope for at least one good quality egg to meet one good quality sperm.

Yes it can still happen, how long have you been trying, has your partner been tested also? I am now just half way through IVF. After 4 years or trying and my husband has low sperm count so no other option really


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## somedayisnow

smurfy said:


> somedayisnow said:
> 
> 
> I'm trying to be optimistic here but I just got my AMH results back and it's bad. .65 which means I have low ovarian reserve. Not surprising since I'm 41.5 but still saddens me. Sigh. Alrighty then, I'm just going to have to pick myself up and hope for at least one good quality egg to meet one good quality sperm.
> 
> Yes it can still happen, how long have you been trying, has your partner been tested also? I am now just half way through IVF. After 4 years or trying and my husband has low sperm count so no other option reallyClick to expand...

I'm hoping to be a single mom by choice. Just never found my prince charming. He must have taken a wrong turn somewhere. :coffee: I just now began the whole "get me pregnant before it's really too late" process. I was/am heading towards having an unmedicated IUI using donor sperm in August. IVF really isn't in the cards for me since I can't afford it. I fear what the FSH results will tell me. I just made an appointment for acupuncture hoping that will help.

When you say you're halfway through IVF, what does that mean? 

*may baby dust hit us all in the ovaries*


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## smurfy

somedayisnow said:


> smurfy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> somedayisnow said:
> 
> 
> I'm trying to be optimistic here but I just got my AMH results back and it's bad. .65 which means I have low ovarian reserve. Not surprising since I'm 41.5 but still saddens me. Sigh. Alrighty then, I'm just going to have to pick myself up and hope for at least one good quality egg to meet one good quality sperm.
> 
> Yes it can still happen, how long have you been trying, has your partner been tested also? I am now just half way through IVF. After 4 years or trying and my husband has low sperm count so no other option reallyClick to expand...
> 
> I'm hoping to be a single mom by choice. Just never found my prince charming. He must have taken a wrong turn somewhere. :coffee: I just now began the whole "get me pregnant before it's really too late" process. I was/am heading towards having an unmedicated IUI using donor sperm in August. IVF really isn't in the cards for me since I can't afford it. I fear what the FSH results will tell me. I just made an appointment for acupuncture hoping that will help.
> 
> When you say you're halfway through IVF, what does that mean?
> 
> *may baby dust hit us all in the ovaries*Click to expand...

You don't need a men in this world we live in, good luck. I had to have my embryos frozen as I got OHSS a couple of weeks back so we hope to have a frozen transfer in August or sept. I love acupuncture it really help stabilise my cycles as it could be a bit long at times. Take care


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## alison29

BRISS i have't read through all the posts yet but I would say that your cycle has not been better on the herbs..


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## alison29

Someday if you are already paying for donor and IUI why not medicate to improve you chances
Briss I would ditch those herbs if I were you, not the accu just the herbs. But since i am not pregnant either do the opposite of what I think ;/


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## Briss

*alison*, thank you. I am really tempted to give up the herbs but on the other hand there is nothing else except TCM that at least promises to get the FSH down. If by some miracle we can start IVf next cycle than the herbs are out anyway but if the funding will get delayed further I may do the herbs for one more cycle. I cant make up my mind and will be speaking to Dr E. I am just so upset with this. I need to do the blood test to check my FSH next cycle but I am so very scared that I think I may not want to know. somehow I feel that the headache, sickness, high FSH, early O are all parts of the same puzzle, something bad is happening and I cant figure out what.

I've read somewhere that apparently FSH start rising in TWW the previous cycle (not from CD1 as it's commonly thought) so maybe I do need some other herbs to take in TWW for that? It makes sense cos the sickness started on CD 1 in the morning and I think by then my body already knew it was going to be a short cycle cos the hormones were out of order. don't know maybe I am making this stuff up but there is very little scientific info on how FSH works in our brain.

My left ovary is ovulating again (it's so rare that my right one is doing anything), it's still sore so the egg must be still in there about to be released. I am hopping if we BD tonight we are still with a chance, cant deal with hopeless cycles, I need at least a glimpse of hope for a miracle to survive TWW. Very concerned about having only one HIGH on CBFM makes me think there is not enough oestrogen to support good follicular development and egg quality might be compromised. 

*Blythe*, Dr E actually agreed with you that not heavy AF and early O does not mean I did not have good lining that cycle but if you read Lewis' book that's her view that early O i.e. CD10 and earlier means egg quality issue + lining issue. and that would explain my light AF. having said that my mum's AF was always 2-3 days, she was so surprised to find out mine was 6 and yet she had sufficient lining for 2 healthy pregnancies (obviously both before 35).


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## kits

I'm so sorry Briss, :hugs: Have a good chat with Dr. E & let him how you're feeling & what's going on.

I don't really know much about early menopause but maybe try some light exercise. I know it's supposed to decrease your cycle length if you exercise too much but a bit might help produce some good hormones naturally.

I had a TV scan today. No heartbeat but they saw the gestation sac. My hcg levels for yesterday 10.07.14 were at 8987, last Wednesday 02.07.15 they were 365, I think I'm happy with that. No info on progesterone results yet.


Lots of :hug: and love ladies


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## alison29

Yay sounds good kit. How exciting to see the sac at least. Are you having any symptoms yet?


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## somedayisnow

alison29 said:


> Someday if you are already paying for donor and IUI why not medicate to improve you chances
> Briss I would ditch those herbs if I were you, not the accu just the herbs. But since i am not pregnant either do the opposite of what I think ;/

alison, I'm going to ask for a medicated IUI. I need all the help I can get.


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## poppy

Hi girls! 

I was just wondering, does acupuncture help lower the risk of miscarriage? 

I am 37 with two little boys (aged 5 and 3). I had no problems conceiving them and pregnancies were good.

At the end of last year we decided to ttc baby number three. We have got pregnant fairly easily twice since then but unfortunately both have ended in a miscarriage (a blighted ovum at 7 weeks and a miscarriage at 9 weeks showing that the baby had died at around 8 weeks). In UK they don't do tests until three recurrent miscarriages. I am not sure whether it was just 'bad luck' as they said or something else such as my age that is causing the miscarriages but I am scared to try again. I do want a third child so I suppose I will have to 'bite the bullet' at some point. I am thinking of waiting two cycles to try and get healthy and lose weight first.

Does acupuncture or cupping help with lowering miscarriage risk?

Thanks
xxx


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## Jazzbird

Hi Poppy - sorry to hear about your miscarriages, that must be really tough.

I'm an acupuncturist (although I'm not currently practicing). In Chinese Medicine recurrent miscarriage is a sign of an underlying deficiency. For example, the older we get & the more children we have - both drain kidney energy which is required for strong healthy pregnancies. So I would definitely recommend acupuncture and chinese herbs to build up your reserves preferably before you get pregnant. I would start at least 3 months before you plan to conceive - ideally have acu once a week and take herbs. You would need a fully qualified acupuncturist and herbalist. If you are in uk try the British acupuncture council website where you can find one who is fully qualified and registered.

Of course there is always the possibility that the embryos were not genetically viable and this does happen as we get older - whether or not acupuncture can influence or prevent this from happening is not really known.

Have your cycles changed since your pregnancies? Do you get light or really heavy periods? What is your cycle length like? Do you have any other signs/symptoms in your general health (e.g. Tiredness, ibs, insomnia, night sweats, headaches etc)

Good luck


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## Jazzbird

Ps Poppy - I forgot to add that miscarriages are also very draining on the body in Chinese Medicine - so if you miscarry and get pregnant quickly again, it increases the likelihood of another miscarriage. 

I'd also like to say that people on this forum have had mixed results with acupuncture - just to add some balance to the question. 

Anyone can set up as an acupuncturist - so it's very important to pick one with good training.


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## somedayisnow

I had my first session with the acu today and it went well. I was a little nervous in the beginning but it ended up being very relaxing. I don't know if this means anything but the only needles I felt go in were both on my left side (foot and hand). Come to think of it, about half way through the session I felt a sensation - I don't know how to explain it- on the left side of my waist towards my back. Maybe it was all in my head. Anyway, I'll be going twice of week for the foreseeable future.


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## kits

That sounds like a pretty good experience some day :) I've heard some ACU like to make a plan with 2 x a week sessions, hope you keep enjoying it. Are you taking any herbs?

Jazz, I didn't realize in TCM that recurrent mc were so draining to the body. Eeek! I mean it makes sense. I hope my kidney's have had enough ACU to be OK! Thanks always for all your information & advice.

I'm also really sorry to hear about your losses Poppy. :flower:

How have you been feeling Briss? I do hope the weekend has allowed you to relax a bit, I know you're so conflicted :hugs: I think it's great that your practicing your mini's, I haven't been able to & just keep calling myself a fat slob! But you're a size 10!! Maybe you're being a bit harsh on yourself, I bet you're still beautiful.

Blythe, I know it's not easy for you but I think all your efforts are fantastic & such a positive influence!

Allison, if you insist :haha: I seem to be unable to get out of bed, feeling sorry for myself with my nausea. No actual sickness but I'm laying here so hungry but so nauseated don't think I want to get up & my sister leaves tomorrow morning :( I've been burping more & more each day :blush: I've just entered my 6th week. I poas Friday morning & my test line was much stronger than the control line :happydance:

Lots of :hug: ladies always praying for ya!!


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## somedayisnow

I think I'm having side effects from yesterday's acupuncture.

1. I had acu on CD5 (my period was over CD4) but now I'm spotting. Is this normal?
2. I just noticed this large, flat, round brown discoloration on my shoulder next to me neck. To be fair, I'm not 100% sure it wasn't there before yesterday's acu but I'm pretty sure it wasn't. It doesn't hurt but now I'm worried. Does anyone have any idea what it might be?


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## Briss

how are you, ladies? hope everyone had a good weekend. I treated myself to reflexology yesterday, really enjoyed it  so relaxing! Found this place on Edgware road which I thought was just a Chinese shop but turned out it's a huge place and they do all sorts of things. pretty expensive for some reason so I do not think I will be coming back. I asked for some herbs to use in my foot soaks and they offered something for 120 pounds! but they also said these herbs should not be used in the first 3 months of pregnancy. I did not know foot soaks can be so dramatic. 

Been reading ZW's book again and she makes a point that women do not nurture themselves enough and this is very important cos it's the only way for certain chemicals to be produced (forgot what they are called) which are crucial for pregnancy and egg development. the point is we need lots of cuddles, touches, massages and orgasms!! re protein she actually says too much protein as well as too little protein is bad for fertility. I cant recall who came up with 70-80 grams a day but apparently the recommended dose is 45 grams but ZW says it's very individual and varies greatly from person to person. I think I can relax in this respect as I am having lots of nuts as well as eggs, milk, meat and fish so I should be OK. after all how much protein can you need to make a tiny little eggie. 

I am pretty sure I ovulated on CD 10 again  truly depressing. 

*Jazzbird*, How are you feeling? have you decided on the birth plan? have you been taking any herbs or doing acu during your pregnancy? I've been thinking about herbs again and if you think about it even vitex which is just one herb can mess up your ovulation big time so a mix of herbs surely can have an effect on ovulation? maybe I am just not reacting well on one or two herbs in the mix which is causing me to overproduce FSH and ovulate earlier? also maybe my diagnose is different? I know high FSH means yin deficiency but maybe I have something that looks like it but is totally different that's why I am not responding well? Just thinking out loud cos there must have been a reason why Dr Zhai for example could not diagnose me. she said until all (heat) settles we cant see what's going on. 

*somedayisnow*, was the brown discoloration on the spot that was needled? I think it's pretty unusual to have such reaction to acu unless you have undiagnosed skin condition but I will let jazzbird to comment as she would know better. re spotting I think if you did not have spotting before it's not great but when you are going through acu treatment your body is adjusting so in the next couple of cycles you may get various unusual symptoms like spotting which will hopefully settle once your body adapts. Basically I think it means your body is reacting to treatment which is positive. 

*Kits*, your hcg levels are rising nicely and great news on the scan. It's probably too early for heart beat but hopefully you can see it well on the next scan. 

*smurfy*, sorry about OHSS. best of luck with your frozen cycle 

*Blythe*, how are you doing? Did you O in the end? I am so hoping you will be one of those miracle stories where ladies get a natural BFP after failed IVFs. I am really impressed how your body reacted well to intensive acu/herbs and so hope this can finally make a difference. how's your DH's cycling to work going? I think my Dh is getting addicted to tamaxofen. he seems to think he cant bring himself to have sex unless he is taking it. I personally think it's all in his head but who knows. anyway we asked for a further prescription but in House MD (my most recent authority on all things medical) they mention really terrible side effects of this treatment


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## alison29

Thanks for praying for us kits! That is so exciting I had a BFP pee stick dream the other night started AF next day (thanks alot body lol).

I am sure you have heard this one before but try eating some crackers like saltenes before you try to get up. I have heard that low blood sugar contributes to that sick feeling (from a low carb RE) I can't say for sure. I know i felt sick no matter what I did and fruit was on the menu alot. I tried sea bands too, that didn't work either. I have heard about vitamin B6 helping (didn't try that). Don't forget to drink as much water as your body can take without throwing up. One thing I do know is that dehydration will make you super tired.

My friend here at work that had to buy the 2000 donation got BFN. I sure hope it works for them next time, they dont' make enoguh to buy too many more cyles taht is for sure.


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## alison29

BRISS I know the clomid is helping my husband TONS he is actually wanting sex up to three times a week as compared to one. He feels great he says (other then the sickness that is going around our house). I think his midsection look slimmer too. I only worry about estrogen getting too high but so far no bad side effects. I ordered him two more months maybe we will go on up to six monhts. 
Sorry to hear about the 10 day ovulation. What the heck is going on with your body?
AFM perfect seeming everything hardly any cramps, bright red flow, ovulation around day 15 but still a big FAT negative. It sure would be nice to know what my problem is! Anyway on to another cycle :) I guess you are still waiting on IVF.


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## Jazzbird

Briss - I'm sorry you ovulated early again. It must be so frustrating.

With regards to your thoughts on mixing herbs and supplements - I think you are spot on. We have always been advised to advise our patients away from other supplements. This is not only because one supplement or herb might have a negative impact on a condition but also because of the interaction between that mix of herbs and supplements.

I think its very natural to question your diagnosis when you are getting mixed results or negative results. I also understand Dr Zhai's view of clearing heat first. Excess conditions like heat are said to mask underlying deficiencies. However, High FSH, Low AMH, poor ovarian response are all very clear indicators of yin deficiency. I can't think of any other diagnosis that would cause this response. Dr E. is clearing heat and nourishing yin, so I think his diagnosis is spot on. Also, if any woman came to me for treatment for infertility, I would always nourish yin in the first half of the cycle - as this is the treatment protocol for ensuring the ripe development of an egg.

I still think you have to remember that you had your best cycle with Dr. E - on month 2. I know you have gone downhill on month 3 & 4 but you stopped taking herbs on month 3. You've also had some intrusive investigations recently - HSG in particular which I think is an X-Ray so is heat producing.

Yin is notoriously difficult to replenish once depleted. I had to take herbs and have weekly acu for 6 months before I saw a difference in my symptoms. I had a complete inability to sleep properly for 4 years and sore, dry eyes - I nearly crashed my car with sleep deprivation. I really didn't believe in acu at the time, but the doctors wanted me on anti-depressants (I didn't feel depressed) as it was the only treatment they could offer me. I had no other choice, so I continue with acu and herbs. I also religiously followed her restrictive lifestyle instructions - home before 7pm, eat before 7pm, in bed by 10 ready to sleep by 11pm. Yin can only be restored through rest, which is ironic because one of the symptoms of yin deficiency is restlessness!!! 

So I really think that 2 months of herbs is not enough to draw any conclusions about Dr. E. 

I also think we all get duff (genetically inferior) eggs as we get older. So when we are 21, we might produce 11/12 cycles with good eggs &#8230; as we get to over 35 I think it drops. I'm not sure whether acupuncture can influence these eggs or whether acupuncture simply provides the optimal environment for a good egg to develop and implant. We just don't know how it works. So I think you have to allow for variation in your cycles, even with treatment.

The way I see it, is that you need to lower your FSH - and there are no other known treatments for this. If there were other treatments I would say investigate those, but as it stands there aren't - so I would continue with Dr. E for another 6 months & I would probably drop all the other supplements & follow any lifestyle advice he offers you religiously. 

I completely understand your urgency - but you need to try and let go and trust in your practitioner. He's a leader in his field and has a very reputable training background and qualifications. All the energy you spend checking up on what he's prescribed or what his diagnosis is, is going to create more stress and interfere with your cycle. I would happily send you a copy of my TTC hypnosis CD - whilst it might not influence conception, I think it definitely pulled me down a gear or two and helped me to relax and trust as I suffer from anxiety and have problems relaxing sometimes.

AFM, I'm fine thanks. Second half of this pregnancy has been wonderful compared to the first half. I haven't taken herbs or acu since I found out I was pregnant. I wish I had now though as my blood has come back very low in iron, despite consistently taking iron supplements. They just aren't as powerful as Chinese blood nourishing herbs. Perhaps I should go and see my old acu who is training in herbs now. 

As for the birth plan - not really. I want to try as natural as possible and progress to drugs/epidural if I can't handle it. I just think a birth plan is a recipe for disaster because there are so many factors that can throw it off course. I plan to use natal hypnotherapy to control my anxiety and help me deal with any issues as they arise. I'm still undecided as to whether to try at home first and then transfer. Its just impossible to predict how I will handle it.

Someday - It's difficult for me to explain why you might be spotting on CD 5 - I can only guess that she might have nourished blood if you were blood deficient and this then started up your period. Or perhaps she moved Qi and your uterus wasn't completely emptied on this cycle and that encouraged a final flush of the uterus. But this is all guesswork as I have no idea what your diagnosis is and what she treated &#8230; I would ask her though. I'm sure she'd be happy to call you back and explain. As for the brown spot on your shoulder - if she needled this point then it might have caused some bruising - which is very common. I'm not sure its a side effect of acupuncture if it wasn't an area she needled.

Kits - don't worry about the recurrent miscarriage. I'm sure your acu is working on points that will nourish Qi, blood and kidneys. It's impossible not to nourish these points if you are treating infertility or pregnancy. Its just interesting that chinese Medicine views pregnancy and miscarriage as very draining on blood, Qi and kidneys, regardless of when the foetus is lost. In Western terms they don't seem to have the same view.

I truly sympathise with the nausea - I was SO sick from week 7 up until week 24. I started vomiting in week 8 and that went on til about week 14, but I had 24 hour nausea as well right up until week 24 - although it got a lot easier the further into second tri I got. I'm sure everyone's said it to you but it is a sign of strong hormones which is said to indicate a good pregnancy. What worked for me (which might not work for you because I think everyone is different) was:
peanut butter on toast
cereal
bananas
sniff lemons and lime
almonds
hot cross buns slathered in butter
salt and vinegar crisps
cold fruit - mango with lime squeezed over it
avacado
sucking on mints!!
nibbling on digestive biscuits or rich tea

I literally never went more than an hour without eating something. It was just the most horrendous thing - as I was constantly starving but everything made me sick. Eugh! I also tried sea bands, vit B6 but none of that worked for me. I'd give it a go though if I were you, its worth a shot! I also tried acu but that didn't work for me this time round :-(


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## Briss

*alison*, I used to get those dreams a lot, so frustrating you go through the labour and finally get your baby only to wake up to AF&#8230; I know what you mean re clomid. I actually asked our urologist if my DH may get more luck with the clomid rather than tamaxofen but he just sent us a prescription for more tamaxofen. Really frustrated with day 10 ovulation and even scared to know what my next cycle will look like. still no news on the funding for our IVF. 

*Jazzbird*, Thank you! I keep forgetting the correct name for this test but it was not HSG in a way they did not check my tubes just uterus and they did not do X rays it was just a scan. also when I had a real HSG with x rays in 2011 it did not affect my ovulation. also my MRI last year did not affect my ovulation. And I had 27,28 days cycles before Dr E's treatment. I do get later O from time to time, my issue was that half of my cycles are 25 days after the lap and that's what I wanted to change (before the lap they were 26 days). It's possible that the only good cycle I had with dr E was just a coincidence? 

I have been getting home before 7pm most days in the last 1-2 years. I seriously cut down on hours at work which is terribly damaging to my career but that's just another sacrifice I am prepared to make. I do eat before 7pm actually most days. But there is no way I can be in bed by 10 pm! having said that I do get plenty of rest, just been on holiday. The thing is I am doing more and more positive changes but the outcome of this is the exact opposite - that's what depresses me 

It's been 3 months on herbs and this is my 5th cycle with acu. if things were not improving I would be patient but things are getting so terribly worse. I am seriously scared. 

I have not been taking my supps last month cos could not bother with them on holiday and when I returned I had this terrible vomiting on Cd 1 that I just could not bring myself to take anything in. I am thinking of going back on supps this week. btw, I showed my list to Dr E and he approved. He actually does not really offer any lifestyle advice cos he says when his patients get to him they all know everything there is to know about lifestyle so he was sure I am doing everything right. I hope I do&#8230;


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## Jazzbird

Hi Briss - I wish I could give you a cuddle. I understand your fear. It must be scary and when all is said and done - you know your body better than anyone. I guess the one thing that you can remember is that your fsh has not been fixed - it did show signs of improvement and has now gone downhill - at least you know it varies and can move in a good and bad direction. 

You are right - your good cycle could be coincidence. It's just that a lot of people dismiss acu when symptoms improve but point the finger when it deteriorates. I'm the first to say to my patients that acu doesn't always work - then I give them a timeframe and tell them what I am hoping will change and when I'm expecting things to improve. When they come back I get them to report back on their symptoms - frequency, intensity etc. has Dr E had this discussion with you?

What is Dr E's response when you tell him about your latest results and early ov? Does he offer an explanation? Does he say - this is not what I expect? Does he give you any other indication that things are moving in the right direction? (Sometimes pulse and tongue tell you the patient is getting better but their symptoms take time to improve? It's so important that he gives you realistic expectations and helps you move on from acu if he feels it is not working. 

If you decide not to continue with dr E - what are your next steps/options? Can you go abroad for ivf? 

I'm so sorry Briss - you really deserve some good news. Can you speak to Dr E and ask him for his honest opinion. Ask him whether he really feels acu/herbs are improving things for you or whether he feels that it is wasted effort.


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## Briss

*Jazzbird*, cant thank you enough for taking the time to write your thoughts. That's so great that i can get your perspective on things. I have not talked to Dr E yet, I will see him next week and will discuss this but I need to make peace with what's going before I talk to him (or I may scream at him)

My FSH did not really improve. I checked it on my longish cycle and it was OK. I checked it several times during the cycle as it fluctuates so i was choosing the lowest level so i could qualify for the IVF. I did not check it the cycle before I started herbs I do not know what my levels were. the 3rd cycle which was super short my FSH was super high. Probably the highest I've seen. strangely Dr E seemed to think after the longish cycle my FSH should be lower as cd 3 FSH is an indication of the cycle before (I personally do not agree with it but that was his view) but obviously my FSH was much higher and he could not explain it, just thought it's a one off thing. If I am honest I am losing trust in him but frankly I do not think you can explain two super short cycles when the expectation was that it will get better. this looks like it's out of his control. either his treatment is not working (but again why would my cycle get so much worse all of a sudden?) or his treatment is having an opposite effect. I doubt he will see it that way and will probably say we need to carry on. although at the start he said it will take 3 months to see improvement and if there is none there is no point in continuing.

Dr E does not really check my pulse and tongue but we spend 10-20 min at the start talking through my cycle and my concerns. I do find these sessions helpful but I cant accept these terrible changes in my cycle. Deep down I do blame the herbs I think but there is about 10% chance that my body decided to go into decline which is just catastrophic so i do not want to think that. I am so hoping we can still do that stim IVF and if that fails then I guess we could follow Dovkav's approach and do many natural IVFs in Germany until we are successful.


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## Jazzbird

Briss - I'm a great believer in that you know what is best for your body. If you feel the herbs are to blame; stop the treatment. I think with any treatment it is so important to be completely on board with it. If your heart isn't in it, you'll be constantly conflicted.

Your body is not in decline. It responds dynamically to its environment. I know fertility declines with age but it's usually gradual not so sudden. 

Perhaps the natural cycles in Germany is the right option for you particularly if you feel time is so precious.

Sending you all my love Briss

Xxx


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## somedayisnow

Hi Briss and Jazzbird,

I'm not too worried about the spotting. It has stopped and reminded me of *TMI * the spotting that takes place when having sex soon after the end of your period.

Re: the dark spot on my shoulder above my collar bone. I've had a chronic stiff neck on my right side (same side as the dark spot) for the past year and a half. I've seen my doctor for it, got prescriptions for muscle relaxers, and even had physical therapy. Nothing has worked long term. The acu didn't put needles in my neck but she did put them in my head (scalp), hands, abdomen, ankles and feet. Throughout the session I did feel something "working" on the right side of my neck and I even commented on it to the acu. Is it possible that the treatment was also having an affect on my neck?


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## Briss

Jazzbird, what would you recommend for depleting yin?


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## Jazzbird

Someday - yes she might have been working on the channel that runs through the neck clearing it. Sometimes you can clear the channel by needling the ends of it. But I'm doubtful that it would have caused any skin discolouration at a different site on the body. Do ask her why she is needling certain areas though. I think it helps to understand.

Briss - lots and lots of rest. Meditation, yoga, walking in the forest - anything that relaxes you. Plenty of sleep. Avoid stress and overwork. But for me, I find herbs are super for restoring yin. The story of the yin deficient woman in Chinese medicine is that she is warned not to put on a red pair of shoes as it will make her dance and she won't be able to stop. She dances to her death in the end (happy little story!). But what it means is that when you have depleted your yin it's like you can't rest so it becomes an ever increasing problem. The one thing you need to get better is the one thing you cant do when you're yin deficient. Inability to rest and be quiet is a key symptom of yin deficiency.


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## Briss

*Jazzbird*, that's an interesting story, sad though. I am not sure I know how restless feels like, maybe I am lazy but I do like to do nothing. I know watching TV does not count as rest but it helps me keep my body still, otherwise I feel bored just sitting doing nothing. reading is like work for me cos I read a lot at work. I actually enjoy physical exercise but I find it hard to get myself to do it. but once I am in the middle of it I really love it. I love walking but my mind is never still when I walk. My mind can be quieted with massage and reflexology cos I focus on sensations and stop thinking. I could try going to bed earlier. I noticed that I tend to wake up in the middle of the night if I had a dream, when I was younger nothing could woke me up and I could easily sleep until noon whereas these days I am up before 9 even on weekends.


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## Jazzbird

Well I would just rest however you can. Computers and tv are said to burn yin. I think it's as much to do with the body and mind being quiet and active at the same time. My personal view is that when the body is still and the mind races this is a sign of yin deficiency. Yoga is good because it balances body and mind at the same time. I always think of yin deficiency as a restless mind. I can never just go with the flow - I'm always trying to research and control everything!


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## Briss

*Jazzbird*, do you have anything against having regular reflexology in early pregnancy and in TWW? I am asking cos it really helps me relax but I noticed I get uterine cramps after that. I have no idea whether this is at all related but just wanted to check


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## Jazzbird

I don't really know that much about reflexology other than there are points that might be massaged that are forbidden in pregnancy - like liv 3


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## Irish_eyes

Briss I did reflexology during IVF and I think I had a session just before transfer but not after.


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## Briss

*Irish_eyes*, thank you. was there a reason why you stopped after ET? I mean I know they recommend not doing anything in TWW after EM but was there anything specific about reflexology? 

Jazzbird, I think liv 3 is not on feet and they usually concentrate on feet most of the time and just do little bit on the legs at the end.


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## Irish_eyes

Yes there was a specific reason and it was adviced by the reflexologist. I'll just check my journal around that time to see what I wrote and will get back to you. ;)


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## Irish_eyes

I just read through my whole IVF journey there and I really forgot how an emotional process it really was, anyway, Briss my last note about reflexology was that I had one session before EC and had planned another before ET. I am not certain if I did the one before ET though. 

Sorry I am not 100% sure why I didn't have a session during the TWW then and I know it was something my reflexologist had said. The only thing I can think of is that certain points focus on the reproductive area and maybe they don't want to risk anything but they just do it beforehand to prepare your body for treatment. I also know that you can have reflexology during pregnancy so maybe the reflexologist doesn't want to do it after EC in case you blame the treatment for the reason for not falling pregnant.


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## Irish_eyes

Today is 11dpo and I am spotting. Well I spotted at 7 & 9dpo after a BM like last month too. So AF is on her way again. I think the difference this month is Oing 2 days early and fingers crossed my LP is a bit longer. Spotting still there. I also will be having a 3 week break from acu as I did go last week but called in yesterday to book for this week but they are closed next week. But managed to get 2 weeks of herbs. I really did think he gave me the wrong. Herbs last time. 

I have also noticed that my PMS is not as bad but maybe that because I am not at work this week for things to make me mad.:haha:

Blythe you had asked me if my acu doc was Chinese, yes he is. 

Jazzbird - I know I don't know you too well and just want to say congratulations on your pregnancy. I also wondering if I could ask you a question about herbs. My acu doc has been giving me in tablet form Nuan Gong Yun Zi and Xiao Yao Wan. Last week instead of the Xiao Yao Wan he gave me Jin Kui Shen Qi and I asked are they the same herbs. He said yes but at that point I did not read the name on the bottle but when I read about them they are for erectile dysfunction etc. When I got the 2 weeks yesterday he gave me the Xiao Yao Wan again. Could that be right?


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## Briss

*Irish_eyes*, I am very sorry about the spotting, hopefully you can get a longer LP this cycle. Are you doing anything to try and extend it? I know Vitex has been greatly criticised but ladies seem to have some success when using it to extend LP phase. 

thank you very much for checking re reflexology. I am sorry I indirectly made you go back and relive your IVF journey, it's just so hard. Some things just stay with you. Every time I pass a boots on my way home (virtually every day) I relive the whole nightmare with my chemical, all the excitement of getting to that boots buying hundreds of pregnancy tests hoping they will show my line going stronger only to be disappointed the very next morning. 

I think reflexology is probably OK during pregnancy but maybe not the first 3 months? 

anyway, I am just so happy Blythe recommended that foot massager (which I have been using every other day!), it's not as great as a reflexology session of course but it's very close! 

I cant believe you were getting wrong herbs? is that possible? did you raise it with your doc


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## Jazzbird

Irish - unfortunately I'm not a herbalist and don't really know enough about your diagnosis or your acus treatment protocol to comment. I would just bring all the bottles in and tell him you'd like to understand more about each formula and what it does - especially why you were prescribed a different formula to usual one week. It could be that he felt your pulses and tongue presented a different pattern to usual ... It is strange that he said it's the same formula because it's clearly different with different actions. He should have a written record of what he prescribed and why.


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## Irish_eyes

Briss, don't apologise, I was the one that starting reading it and I just couldn't believe the mixed emotions I had during it. Even the whole relationship between my DH and I, the worry, the stress and there was me thinking I got through it ok. I do remember DH saying it was a dark time. One think I pick up on when I knew it failed was that I was planning on focusing on my running and was going to try and get to half marathon distance.....I ended up doing a marathon 9 months later!!! I don't do things in halves! :haha: I suppose it was something to take my mind off things like "oh I would have been xx weeks pregnant if it had of worked" type thing. 

Jazzbird, thanks for your help. I find it a bit difficult holding a conversation with my acu doc and it could be down to a language barrier or just the fact I don't ask. He did the checking temp and tongue at my first consultation and 11 session later he hasn't given me an update on my progress. He recommended sessions twice a week until my periods are sorted, he said I had a yang deficiency. Did twice a week for 6 sessions and reduced to once a week because of funds. When I go into an appt he is going upstairs to the treatment before I can get the front door shut to the clinic and after my appt I pay and go. He does ask me now and again how my week is and that's it. Although I have a 3 week gap between my 11th and 12th session it am just going to ask him at my next appt if he could give me an update. He just told me one herb is for ovulation and the other for my period. I know I should look into another acupuncturist but now that I am going to this one regular he is now only charging £25 per session plus £16 for the herbs per week. And that's tough going for me at the moment. 

Sorry if there is any errors in this post as I am on my phone which likes to make up words!!!


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## Irish_eyes

Briss, I have high prolactin so have to take Bromocriptine for it so can't take Vitex with that. I did buy it years ago and just as well I checked before taking it. Think they just both do the same thing. I did stop taking the Bromo for a good while through last year and the beginning of this year and my levels did shoot up a good bit. I go to the hospital annually to keep an eye on it and the last appt it went up from 118 pmol/L in May 2012 to somewhere in the 600s a year later. My consultant said it was good that I stopped taking the Bromo as I test to see if it sorted itself out but obviously not. I have only recently started taking it regularly again in the last lot of months so I am not sure how high it did go but I have my annual appt next week to test that. So it could be the reason my cycle and spotting is a bit messy but I have also started taking B50 complex this cycle. I uses to take B100 complex and along with that and a lower prolactin level my cycle were on average 29 days with a 13 day LP. So I suppose I should give all the tabs a while to kick in again. 

So annoyed with myself for getting lazy with taking the Bromocriptine as I definitely won't have a chance getting pregnant without it.


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## Irish_eyes

Briss have you ever tried Reiki?


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## Briss

*Irish*, do you know why you have high prolactin levels? sounds very serious. I also noticed (but maybe it was just a coincidence) that after taking Vit B 100 complex for two cycles my pre AF spotting got better. I was also taking Chinese herbs and doing acu so hard to say which one of those helped or maybe it just resolved on its own. 

I have not tried Reiki. I cant even get myself to do yoga regularly :) have you tried it?


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## Irish_eyes

Briss, it all started when I was about 21 when I came off the pill. I didn't have a period for 2 years but it didn't worry me, I was young and didn't care, more so happy days for not getting it. How naive was I? 

Finally went to the doctors and and she did a blood test for my prolactin levels. It was high so I had to go back on the hour every hour so that she can get three blood samples as she said the prolactin can fluctuate. When I has to get this done my period miraculously showed up on its own but my prolactin turned out to be high every time so I was referred to the hospital for a CT scan. By this time I had met DH. They did the scan to see if there was a tumour on my pituary gland but thankfully (and I say thankfully now because then I did not realise how serious this was) there was no tumour. So they diagnosed me with idiopathic hyperprolactinemia - basically there is no cause. 

So since then I have been attending the hospital on an annual basis. Back then when I first found out my levels were as high as 1800pmol/L. I can remember what the recommended level is but they were happy with 118 but in the 600s is definitely too high. When I went to my appts after the scan my consultant trying to explain to me about the Bromocriptine particularly since they knew I was getting married. I was quite frightened about it as all I heard was you can't take it when pregnant and I thought what was the point then if you can't get pregnant on it!!! Until a stand in consultant kindly explained it a bit better that I can take it up until I find out I am pregnant. 

Since properly TTCing I look back on how naive I was about letting the absence period go for so long, the CT scan, taking the tablets. I now realise I could have been going under brain surgery to remove a tumour if they had of found one. Sure I also didn't realise that there is only a certain amount of days in your cycle that you are fertile until TTC. 

Sorry that was long winded. Briss I also found that it was the B100s that helped with my pre AF spotting, so honestly I would say it was them rather than the herbs. I am going to continue with the B50s and when they are done might change to the 100s if there is not much change. 

Reiki is really relaxing and quite spiritual. I loved it but haven't been back for a while especially since I am paying for acu. You would just do about 6 quick session and then it's up to you to go when you need it. Give it a go sometime. My Reiki practitioner, although she doesn't claimed to be a medium, was also able to tell me things she saw during my sessions, like my daddy, recommendations in what my body is lacking etc. It is definitely the most relaxing thing I have done.


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## Irish_eyes

Oh forgot to mention though, despite the prolactin we are still categorised as unexplained as they don't see the prolactin a problem when taking the meds.


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## Briss

*Irish_eyes*, I do not know that much about prolactin but the first thing that immediately comes to mind is brain tumours so it's great that this was ruled out straight away. Do you have to repeat CT scans every year? 

My prolactin is 194 mlU/L (ref 102-496). is it OK? no one raised any concerns. 

You have been through so much, in a way it's good that you were naïve and did not appreciate the danger of your situation, it spared you some stress. Have you been checked for thyroid disease, polycystic ovary syndrome and shingles? these seem to be associated with high prolactin levels. I can understand why they treat you as unexplained cos if your prolactin levels can be managed with Bromocriptine and you have regular periods then theoretically you should be able to get pregnant. Maybe it's all down to shorter LP? have been taking progesterone in TWW?

re B100s, it's so surprising that some B vitamin can help with pre AF spotting? I know it must be so if it worked for us as well as many other ladies, I am just not sure how to explain it. I cant possibly have B vitamin deficiency having been taking tonnes of vitamins, including B, for years now. so what is it? I stopped Vit B now cos I started getting skin rush around my mouth and I think it was related to Vit B cos it disappeared a week after I stopped it. I also read that B 100 is not recommended for long term (maybe that's why) so take a break after 2-3 months. 

I will look into Reiki, although I am slightly afraid of mediums and psychics, it's about the power of what they say, even if you do not believe it somehow their words still stay with you and you can unintentionally make them true. I am uneasy with that.


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## Jazzbird

Reiki is just healing through hands using a supposed life force. It is not related to psychic or medium practices


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## Briss

Jazzbird, thanks. have you tried it?


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## alison29

I have wanted to try reiki too. I actually have a practitioners card right on my work desk under my monitor. My hair stylist said it helped her get pregnant. Who knows though I think it would be neat.


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## alison29

Maybe I 'll try it in september once summer is over (i have more expenses in summer)


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## kits

Oooo.. Reiki, that sounds good. Never tried it though.

Briss, I'm not sure what to say. I wish I could hug everything away for you. Just wave a happy wand and boom, pretty preggie bump.

I'm still here for ya & all the other ladies, always will be. Just feel a bit guilty of my current status so am keeping quiet.

Irish, how long have you been trying?

Blythe & Briss, I hope your hubbies are OK.


Loads of :hug:


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## kits

By the way, I've had a couple of readings. I used to be scared of them but now I see them as very comforting & positive experiences.

My first experience (April 2004ish?)wasn't that great to be honest. I was told both me & my then boyfriend (now he's my ex husband) would find new beginnings. I can't remember anything else she said it all became a blur after she said that as I didn't want to believe it. Ahhh, the mistakes we make... If only I had listened! :blush:

My second experience (Jan 2011) was a bit odd, but she was a spiritualist & a close so maybe she cheated a bit, he he. But I found her so comforting because she assured me I wasn't alone. I have always felt alone living in the UK so that was the best thing she could've said.

My 3rd experience (march 2014) was the best. Complete stranger with a very good reputation. He told me loads about my present, past & future. It was actually a tarrot reading & he just kept blubbering stuff. The main things he told me was that I was going to change careers to do something with loads of babies, he thought I was a midwife or a teacher because he said he saw me surrounded by so many kids they couldn't possibly all be mine. Then he said I was going to have an announcement in June (I hoped everyday in June that the announcement was a bfp!), he did say I was going to have a little boy & a girl. Also said my mom will be fine (she had cancer a year ago). By the way he didn't really ask questions, as I'd turn a tarot over he'd just talk.

Point is, Yea a lot of what they doesn't necessarily work out or much less make any sense but I it gave me hope. And that alone is sometimes all you need. All that is said can just be words, but the hope is so comforting. You do keep few bits in the back of my mind, but nothing that'll cause paranoia, depression. At the end of the day it's just someone else's opinion.

That same guy told a friend some pretty unfortunate things that did occur but that's just life...


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## Jazzbird

Yes I've had reiki - my old acu who is a gynaecologist uses it after she puts the needles in. She swears by it - has worked on her brother in law when he was in a coma in hospital. I think she thinks it works with the same Qi as in acupuncture but in a less direct way. It's very relaxing. 

I really don't know what I think to it. You can do level 1 training in a day for £70. This means you can treat friends and family.


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## Irish_eyes

_*Briss*_ - no I don't need to do the scan again. I think they were certain that there was no tumour so I just go for a check up every year. They just tests like me covering one eye then they put their hand in the air then they start to bring their arm down moving their fingers and I have to tell them as soon as I see it (hope that made sense). Also have to read some small text covering one eye and then they send me in to do another blood test. That's it really. 

They measure my prolactin in a different unit to yours, mine is pmol/L and I just read somewhere that it should be under 700 pmol/L for it to be ok but I think it was a bit lower than that according to my consultant. I will have to check the range. I take it ref 102-496 is the ok range in miU/L so I think you don't have anything to worry about with your prolactin because if you did your fertility doctors would pick up on that straight away. Prolactin is apart of your CD3 test. I think to convert miU/L you multiply it by 2.043 to get pmol/L. 

My LP has been 13 days so they haven't been that bad but just have notice since temping again they have been shorter. The only time I took progesterone is during the TWW in my IVF cycle. Do you have any recommendations were I can get some? Anything is worth try. 

As Jazzbird says Reiki is not related to mediums etc. My practitioner did highlight that she doesn't claim to be and it's also your option if you want to hear whatever she has to say afterwards. You can just go for pure relaxation purposes only which I do recommend. I have been to a medium twice (same one) in the last two years. I always said I would love to go to one but didn't feel it was right until 2 years ago and it was because my daddy passed away 5 years previous to the first reading. It does give me comfort even if it isn't true but this medium as told me so much that she could not have known. 

With Reiki for example she told me there is definitely no reason why I can not have a baby. She has told me things like my hips being sore (I am a runner) and she has even been able to tell me that I have my AF without me telling her. She would also tell me I would need to eat more celery or drink hot lemon water etc. 

When I was going through IVF, one of my colleagues in work was going through FET the same time. We were days apart with our ETs and test dates. It turned out it failed for both of us but it was good to have that support but also nerve wrecking at the thought of one one if us getting our BFP. This girl had already had a wee boy through IVF and she went to the same Reiki practitioner. After her FET her AF was being weird and coming every two weeks. The RP told her she was pregnant and even her husband got so annoyed with the RP for telling her this as if she tested and it was negative that would have set her off. So she wouldn't test but it was until another colleague and I were saying our AF arrived (we all seemed to get it together) that made her realise hers still wasn't there. So she finally tested and got a natural BFP. She was so shocked because she said she went off on a knicker spending spree, determined to get pregnant naturally that next cycle. :haha: She now has another happy little 1 year old boy. I think the Reiki changes her mindset but not sure if it did help her.

*Kits* - I have been trying for over 5 and a half years but in all fairness there has been a lot if months in that time were we haven't tried at all.


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## somedayisnow

Hi everyone. I hope the universe is treating you all kindly.

Had my second acu session today and it was a bit of a workout. Most of the needles I could hardly feel as they went in but the ones over my right ovary OUCH. I knew he was going to concentrate on my right ovary/fallopian tube because I had an HSG test on Tuesday and although both tubes are open, the right one was slow to let the dye out. Once the needles were in, the pain went away but then the doctor came in with 10 minutes left and adjusted the needles. OUCH again.

This time he asked me about temping and was concerned that I haven't ovulated yet. Today is CD12 and my cycle is 25 days long. Hopefully, ovulation is just delayed because of the HSG and not because I don't ovulate at all. This is my first cycle temping and using opks. I've always assumed that I ovulate but I don't know that for sure. :shrug:

And finally we talked herbs. He wants me to start taking them beginning CD3. What these herbs will be I have no idea but I guess I'll find out in a couple of weeks.

A friend of mine recommended reflexology. She raves about how relaxed she feels after a session and thinks it would help keep my stress levels down.

Babydust to you all. :baby:


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## kits

Well, here it starts again.. Had my first bit of brown spotting when I wiped this morning (I also had a ton of cm)

Rang my epu but they said not to come in since I'm already booked in for a Scan on Friday.

Really trying to stay positive, I know there's a good chance it's nothing but spotting has always been bad news for me. Last night I had a bit of 'oh that's not good' pain but it was only a little bit & it went away when I rubbed it.

Won't go in to work, no way I'd keep it together, at home i can cope.

Here's to hoping it's nothing & that it goes away quick sticks.


All the best ladies :hug:


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## Briss

*kits*, I am so sorry about spotting. you must be so nervous. I just hope it's nothing, so many women spot throughout their pregnancies, some even continue having periods and yet deliver healthy babies. I wonder if there is a specific acu points to help keep the baby in place in these situations? My first acu doc said she helped women with spotting during the first trimester when western doctors said there is nothing they could do, what will be will be, she did acu and gave herbs and some women managed to get through this with their pregnancies saved 

*somedayisnow*, I also found the point over my right ovary is very painful but it depends on the practitioner. my current one does not pain me at all  no idea if this is good or not but I like it better. My previous doc also used electro acu on my tummy points and have to say I was struggling with pain for 30 min every time even when the current was on the lowest possible level. 

When I have a 25 day cycle usually ovulate on day 11 but my problem is a shorter follicular phase. maybe you will have a longer cycle this time? keep temping it will give you a good idea about your cycle. the main thing is to take your temp at the same time every morning, otherwise it will appear erratic. 

I absolutely love reflexology! if it's mild it's sop relaxing but I like it strong even painful because after the procedure I feel like my feet were reborn. I am still not sure if doing reflexology in TWW is a good idea because it seem to have a bit of cramping every time after the procedure (again, no idea if that's related). 

*Irish_eyes*, I did not know eye sight is related to prolactin? I cannot see any small text even with glasses and both eyes opened! 13 day LP is very healthy. I am actually not sure where you can buy progesterone I think ladies were posting some links where you can buy it on line but I did not save it. I also have some left from my IVF cycle but I did not use it in natural TTC. Have you checked your 7-10 DPO progesterone levels? are they high enough? 

*Blythe*, I hope you are OK


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## somedayisnow

*kits*, I have all my body parts crossed for you. Hopefully the spotting amounts to nothing.

*Briss*, the only other thing I can think of is that I ovulated super early but that doesn't sound right, either. The only major spike in temperature happened on CD7. To be honest, I don't trust my temping. This is my first month doing so and except for the first two days (CD1 and CD2) I've woken up at the same time each morning when the alarm goes off. That said, for most of those days I've also woken up at odd times during the night and had to will myself not to move until the alarm goes off. :nope: Hopefully I'll have this temping thing sorted by my next cycle.
How are you doing today?


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## kits

Thanks ladies, really appreciate it. That whole 'you're used to the losses, this is just another one' is kicking in.. But I promise I'm trying to stay positive.

Someday, I know what you mean about the temping. I tried to always within the same time frame but still kept getting mountains. In the end I was convinced this wasn't my cycle & we bd randomly because my temps had me baffled. I think my thermometer was just crap tbh. I've kept my ovulation chart just because it still baffles me.

Sorry to hear that your ACU hurt. I've only had it a few times in my abdomen but I think I'm too chubby for it to hurt. It hurts on other parts like feet, legs, shoulder & head. I'm not sure how else to tell if you ovulate other than by temping (even though I don't fully trust it) or by doctor tests. To be honest only until recent months did the notion even occur to me. Sorry hun, I'm sure you're pretty worried now.

Briss, how are you doing? I'm sorry you were struggling so much with your early o, I do pray your time comes soon.

Hope Blythe & Allison are doing well.

My ACU said she's focusing on settling the baby & reducing my nausea stress but I can't honestly say it's helping. Even feel like canceling my next ACU.

Sorry ladies.


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## somedayisnow

kits, it's interesting that your Acu promotes treatment in early pregnancy. Mine said he doesn't do acupuncture during the first trimester because it can bring down a person's temperature and that's not good for the fetus. Or at least that's what I think he said.

I'm not saying that my Acu is right or wrong. TCM is so new to me that I don't know what to believe. Maybe someone here with more knowledge can shed light on the ins and outs of acupuncture while pregnant. 

I'm not really a religious person but I am sending up a prayer to the gods, spirits, mother nature and everything good for your babydust to keep sticking.


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## Blythe

Thinking of you all ladies and reading your posts. I will post again when I have sorted my head out.....in a horrid hole which I'm struggling to get out of. 

Kits. I hope the spotting stops soon. Always such a worry but so common in early pregnancy. Thinking of you x


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## kits

Hang in there Blythe, sending lots of love :hugs:


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## kits

I've read good things about ACU in pregnancy including first trimester but I can be pretty impulsive so I wouldn't be surprised if I do quit it especially since the thought has crossed my mind.

Thanks ladies, appreciate the comforting words genuinely made me feel a bit better.

:flower:


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## Irish_eyes

Kits, keeping my fingers crossed for you and hope that the spotting is pregnancy related.

Briss, they do that test for brain function rather than testing the eyes. Yes I did have the progesterone test done with was a few years ago. My doctor was happy with the result. Just checked and it was 38.7. Not sure what that was measured in but that was a CD21 test. What's the test you get CD7-10? I did get a CD3 test done which is FSH etc. Is that the one? 

Blythe just wanted to let you know I am thinking of you x


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## Briss

*Blythe*, I am very sorry you are going through this. I know how it feels but I also know that it will change so hang in there, it's been so tough and for so long but it must change. 

I keep thinking about Jazzbird's story about the red shoes and being restless (see I told you words stay with me!) and I keep watching myself trying to find any sign of being restless. maybe I am I just do not see it. for example DH pointed out that I can never just sit there watching TV, I always do at least two other things at the same time - is this restlessness? 

we visited our friends this weekend who recently moved out of London, it's amazing how much space you can get for 300K! I could not believe it but obviously there is a catch. while you are inside it's all very well but the area is not really nice and there are no cafes or decent shops and it takes over an hour to get to London, also you are tied to the train's timetable so cant be spontaneous, need to plan your journeys ahead. not sure i am ready to do that yet


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## Briss

Had my follow up acu appointment and we discussed the situation with my super short cycles and early ovulation over the last two months. Dr E agreed that it does not look very good and my eggs are ovulating too early so not great for natural TTC as eggs are more likely to be immature. he did not think my cycle was reacting to herbs but clearly the treatment is not working in a way it's supposed to so we are changing the strategy. I still have heat but it's a different kind of heat. my previous formula was concentrating on nourishing Yin, my new formula will be instead looking at cooling down Yuan. Going back to his example with tap water, It's too hot and out of balance. we previously were increasing cold water to create a balance between Yin and Yuan but now we are going to decrease hot water. I hope this makes sense, it does to me I think. Dr E seemed positive that TCM can work for me still so I am giving it another chance. Dr E thinks my ovaries are fine and respond to high FSH as they should so the problem is in my brain i.e for some reason it produces too much FSH. we previously were looking at pituitary gland and now we are going to treat hypothalamus.

My new formula: *Jia Wei Xiao Yao San*. 

ingredients:

&#8226;	Chai Hu hare&#8217;s ear root, thorowax root, bupleurum Radix Bupleuri 
&#8226;	Bo He Ye field mint, mentha Herba Menthae Haplocalycis
&#8226;	Dang Gui tangkuei, Chinese angelica root Radix Angelicae Sinensis [supports pregnancy]
&#8226;	Bai Shao Yao white peony root, peony Paeoniae Radix alba [supports pregnancy]
&#8226;	Bai Zhu , bai shu ovate atractylodes, (white) atractylodes rhizome [supports pregnancy]
&#8226;	Fu Ling sclerotium of tuckahoe, China root, hoelen, Indian bread Poria Cocos
&#8226;	Zhi Gan Cao licorice root Radix Glycyrrhizae prep.
&#8226;	Wei jiang
&#8226;	Mu Dan Pi moutan root bark, tree peony root bark Cortex Moutan Radicis
&#8226;	Shan Zhi Zi

from my brief reading Jia Wei Xiao Yao San opens liver qi and clears heat. it is used for stress, frustration, anger and PMS. While I do not have PMS as such I do have a lot of anger! basically emotional heat that's what we are trying to fix I think. https://eagleherbs.com/buy/bupleurum-and-peony-formula-jia-wei-xiao-yao-san-981 

I am supposed to take from CD2 to ovulation

*Jazzbird*, I'd really appreciate your view on this, as always!


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## kits

That sounds pretty good Briss, I really like this approach. I'm no expert but it sounds like a good path to take especially with the anger and head heat. Everything you said made perfect sense.

I think this is a similar approach to what my ACU tried, her main focus has always been around destressing my head & obsessions. Maybe your hormones are a lot more balanced than you think and it's your stress that throws everything off?

I feel & hope this could be the start of a positive change for you Briss!! Praying for you hun. :hugs:


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## kits

Not counting my chickens (technically there's only one) yet but I'm feeling better today. I had a little panic this morning because when I pee'd there was a metallic smell so I went to see the nurse who thinks it was just do to the blood, which had pretty much disappeared because the pee strip showed no signs of infection.

I had a ton of lovely ewcm that has made me feel so much better. I love ewcm, is that weird? Just makes me think things are doing well down there.

I did have a pretty erotic dream earlier, but I'm sure I pee'd since that. So surely it was ewcm. It was very stretchy & very clear.


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## Jazzbird

Hey Briss - so pleased you talked things through with dr E.

I'm not really an expert on herbs but what I think he is talking about is the balance of yin and yang.

Yin is cooling, moistening and resting energy; yang is warming, drying and active energy. We need a perfect balance to achieve good health. When we lack yin, we don't have enough cooling energy to keep the body thermostat stable and the body overheats. But this is because of a deficiency or a lack of something.

It is also possible to overheat the body due to excess - this can arise from too high consumption of alcohol, coffee, spicy food, being in a hot environment ... Or prolonged liver qi stagnation which turns into heat. 

It sounds as though he has switched treatment from clearing heat & nourishing yin to clearing excess heat and clearing stagnation.

He sounds like a fantastic practitioner so I think it's worth giving the new treatment strategy a go.


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## Irish_eyes

Kits, EWCM sounds good and glad there's no more spotting. 

Briss that strategy sounds good and your practitioner sounds great. 

I am seriously thinking of giving it up. I am back on Saturday for a session and I am just wondering is it doing any good. I know I need to give it time in all fairness but can't really say the session are relaxing.


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## Briss

*Irish_eyes*, as you can see I have my doubts too, I am not sure how relaxing acu is supposed to be, there seem to be different opinions. my previous Chinese doc thought the pain during acu was a good sign that it was doing its thing so the sessions were never relaxing and I was looking forward to cupping and massage at the end (she did it for free with every session). my current acu is relaxing but whether its doing any good I cant say yet. I'd give it 3-6 months before making a decision. 

if I am honest, while I am totally on-board with Dr E's new strategy there is a part of me that's afraid it can screw the only part of my cycle that is good &#8211; my perfect 14 day LP. mainly because it's Yuan that's responsible for this part and the strategy seem to be to tone it down. there is a risk that the diagnosis is not right and my Yuan is not in excess but I guess I can quickly see if there is any kind of pre AF spotting or shortening of my LP that'll be an indication that the strategy is not working. fingers crosses he's getting it right this time. 

I just got this bootea, supposed to detox your digestive system. https://www.bootea.com/collections/all/products/14-day-teatox the list of ingredients in this tea looks fine so I may give it go from CD1, just need to make sure there is at least a few hours break between my Chinese herbs and this tea


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## Irish_eyes

I think it's just because I am so used to relaxing treatments. 

I have also found this clinic in Belfast that does Maya massage and it is owned by a girl that had fertility problems herself. She seems to have a good success rate so I have sent her and email and she replied saying she is on holiday but get PA will be in contact with the cost of treatment. I will ask though what her success rate is with natural pregnancies though.


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## Jazzbird

Briss - I'm not sure what "Juan" is? If he means yang - the herbs he has prescribed have nothing to do with yang.

I think what he was saying was that you need the perfect balance of yin and yang for a good cycle. When there is not enough yin, there is a relative excess of yang. But you don't reduce yang to treat this, you merely tonify or strengthen yin - which is what he was doing.

But he has decided to switch strategy altogether by clearing excess heat and clearing stagnation - neither of which have anything to do with yang. And he's just doing that til mid cycle - so he's leaving your yang alone!!! And it is kidney yang that is responsible for the luteal phase of your cycle - this means your temp should jump at ov by a reasonable amount and stay elevated, increasing gradually as you reach the end of your cycle. 

Incidentally there are many points which nourish kidney yin and yang at the same time and I'm sure he is using these. Please try to trust him - whilst chinese medicine is relatively simple in concept - it still takes nearly 4 years to train in acu and a further 2 for herbs. Patients can't possibly double check diagnosis and treatment without going through similar training. He has definitely identified that you have heat which is causing premature ovulation and he's trying to treat this - first he tried by clearing heat and nourishing yin. Now he's trying clearing heat and dispersing liver qi stagnation which creates heat in the long term.

As for acu being relaxing - it varies hugely between what they are treating you for and what kind of practitioner they are. If they are treating you for stress, then you probably will experience some form of relaxation possibly after the needles are removed. My mum is a total stress head and it was like the steam had been released when she leaves the treatment room. But that is her constitution. 

Some practitioners use reiki or massage once needles are in. Some people find this relaxing - other practitioners are more clinical and just use acu.

Relaxation is not a measure of success for acu at all unless you have gone to them and specifically asked to feel more relaxed.


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## Briss

*Jazzbird*, you are right, I meant Yang, not Juan :) I was thinking about the discrepancy between the herbal formula and treating too much Yang, i just could not understand it. but that's how he explained it: he was previously nourishing Yin and now he wants to try to reduce Yang (the water taps example), maybe I misunderstood but I did ask him a question about reducing yang causing mess in my TWW to which he responded that if we are right this should not happen. 

I am still waiting for my NHS funding to be approved and looks like I will be wasting the next cycle again waiting so i have time to try these new herbs.

I am really struggling with my age and having 1st child so late in life, if ever, it now looks more like 39-40 if we are lucky... would I have time for a second child? I cant even breathe properly when I think about it, i get something like a spasm in my lungs :( that's stress

AF is on her way so not in a good place right now.


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## alison29

CHi been at the beach all week just catching up.


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## Jazzbird

Hi Briss - there is a pattern of illness in chinese medicine called liver yang rising. This arises when liver yin has been deficient for a long time. The treatment is to subdue yang usually by dispersing liver qi (which is what your herbs do). But this has nothing to do with the kidney yang responsible for the second half of your cycle. It would not affect kidney yang. Perhaps this is what he means when he says he is reducing yang? It's difficult to say. You could ask him - what patterns are you treating? Explain you have a friend who is studying chinese medicine and is interested in your diagnosis. He might write it down for you. 

I understand your panic re age and babies. Even though I'm so very lucky to have conceived age 37 I will be nearly 38 when she is born. Then you do the maths about when you might be able to have another etc. and you realise you are looking at 40+

Try to forget the 2nd and focus on baby 1. None of us know how it's all going to pan out. We might not enjoy being mothers or have horrendous births or have difficult children. So many factors will influence your decision to have another and it will change over time. You are still relatively young - there are many woman TTC #1 45+. 

Thinking of the future so far in advance will add more stress and make you miserable. Try and focus on the first baby.

Hugs to you Briss - if there's anyone that deserves a break it's you. This has been such a long, arduous journey and it's not fair.

Xxx


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## Briss

*Jazzbird*, liver yang rising thing and your explanation makes a lot of sense. Dr E said my previous herbs work for 9 out of 10 women with high FSH. why am I always in the 1 category of unlucky ones rather than 9?? anyway, I am just trying to understand and keep track of what treatment I am doing so I know what works and what does not, I have no choice but to trust him and I do trust him that he is doing his best. I just keep wandering why what works for majority does not work for me. maybe we are missing something? he looked very confident in what he is doing and he said he knows exactly what herbs we need to do now so I am feeling positive about the next cycle. 

On some level I am slightly relieved we are not staring stims right now cos I want to see at least one normal cycle and good FSH level before we proceed with IVF.


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## kits

I just wanted to point out that because I've been TTC for just under a year (I had the appointment booked to see gp regarding my fertility when I got my bfp) that I didn't have an official diagnosis. I don't know if my progesterone is too low or FSH numbers, etc. 

The only information I've ever had is cycle length & for my last 2 cycles I just had temps.

So without this info my ACU could never treat anything too specific other than what I communicated. Therefore there was always a focus towards stress & relaxation because she just couldn't do anything else.

Briss, after you explained your fear of losing your perfect Lp I understand your uncertainty so much more. However, don't worry about your age. You're still OK!

Had a scan today, we have a heartbeat :) one more milestone out of the way, phew!


Loads of :hug: ladies


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## Jazzbird

Hi Briss - yes it must be frustrating being in that 10%. With Chinese medicine it is sometimes a process of elimination. Patients often come with multiple patterns of illness. Some patterns trigger other patterns and so it's often trial and error to find the core pattern that needs treating first. 

I think the one thing that us 100% certain from all your practitioners is that you have heat which is triggering early ovulation. Where that heat comes from is really the root pattern. Is it yin deficiency? Is it yang rising out of long term deficiency? Is it prolonged liver Qi stagnation? Is it toxic heat? 

These are all valid questions - and you probably have a mix of these things. Your pulses will provide some clues but it is your response to treatment that will ultimately determine your diagnosis.

It's not an exact science and I hope and pray you respond soon. You do have a great practitioner - so at least you know you have given it your best shot. 

Xxx


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## Jazzbird

Kits - marvellous news  I hope the sickness goes soon but also try to see it as a good sign. Xxx

Ps your acu would have many other things to go on - your cycle length, menstrual flow, colour, pain as well as other signs and symptoms in your general health. 2 of the most important signs are the pulses and tongue diagnosis. Pulses are incredibly intricate and tell an awful lot about a patients health and well being. 

Fsh and other western markers only provide clues and are not fully translated yet into Chinese medical terminology. High fsh could indicate so many patterns of illness in Chinese medicine - the acu will have to piece all the info together and make a judgement call. Western medicine is very reductionist; Chinese medicine is much more systemic.


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## Briss

looks like I got my ovulation date wrong. I am actually pleased about it cos CD10 was really frustrating. My AF did not come yesterday when it was supposed to and is starting today at 16 DPO. I do not have 15 day LP, mine has always been13/14 days I know i got my peak on cd9 but sometimes I ovulate on the high after the second peak rather than on the second peak so it's more likely I ovulated on CD11 (rather than 10) despite my temp going up on cd 11. maybe my temp was just wrong on that day.


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## Blythe

Briss - i was looking at your charts last night [cos that is the sort of stuff i do on a sat night!!] and thought they all look pretty healthy to me. I think all this knowledge we have accrued about stats and levels etc etc has meant that whenever our cycle changes just a bit we go into a spin.

This month i ovulated 7 days later than usual and have been spotting since CD28 but got my period yesterday 7 days late....i was pleased to see it as i knew i was not pregnant. Bloody vitex!!

I went for my last acu with the new lady and there was a man there who did it instead. He did my pulse etc and the treatment [the massage was a delight...the hot weather, the strong rhythmic strokes etc etc] and at the end he said.....wait for it......'your kidney is weak....and i suggest a course of herbs and acupuncture....". After all this money and total commitment it would appear that nothing has changed or improved at all. I may go back to it but not for a while. However, my DH is now doing weekly acupuncture and powdered herbs everyday so we will see if that helps.


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## Briss

*Blythe*, so happy to hear from you! I missed you! I know what you mean re Saturday nights, I do the same thing and not just on Saturday night but virtually every night&#8230; I agree, in the scheme of things our charts look pretty good, I've seen so many seriously messed up charts and cycles of women who eventually got pregnant. just goes to show there is no rhyme or reason why it happens to some and not others.

ovulating 7 days later is huge &#8211; totally agree bloody vitex! 

that massage sounds wonderful! I also treated myself to reflexology yesterday, somehow I always get cramps after reflexology and I figured it can help bring on AF and I was right, spotting turned into proper flow as soon as I left the reflexology place. 

I know it's pretty sad but I could not stop laughing at that "weak kidney" comment. I guess it's just hard to treat cos you are working against time and natural decline but actually I think you have done amazingly well. 14 eggs is impressive and I am sure intensive acu/herbs played their role in this. I will be lucky to get 3-4. I am so impressed with your DH doing acu/herbs. mine is still complaining about being "poisoned" by vitamins &#8230; 

I've started my new herbs today on CD2 so fingers crossed they are going to work for me. taste quite bad but not the worst ones I've tried. I read a few ladies have been taking them but most seem to take it in tww for MPS.

I also decided to do the detox tea thing for 2 weeks. the morning tea is just a mix of herbs and the evening tea supposed to detoxify your body and help it get rid of the toxins in the morning. Worked pretty well so far but then I am quite regular anyway. 

no news from my clinic, I am getting really disappointed with them cos I've been waiting since January &#8211; 7 months! I think I am going to start talking to clinics in Germany. I am trying to understand how it's all going to work with doing it abroad. I may even do a natural cycle while we are waiting. I honestly feel we are wasting time TTC naturally. in 4 years I've never even had a chemical (naturally) so I doubt we even managed to create an embryo. I suspect DH's sperm just does not make it

yet another friend who recently gave birth invited us over to see their new baby. I obviously refused (politely and with appropriate excuse). I am not subjecting myself to the torture of seeing smb else' s baby. she knows I was TTC long before she considered having a baby and she keeps asking me about our news. I was pretty clear that nothing changed. yet she keeps asking directly how are our TTC efforts??? honestly, if I had a baby I would have probably mentioned it if I say I have no news that's pretty obvious what I mean by that. just annoys me that she expect me to spell it out, no we are still not pregnant. one more friend off my friends list &#8230;.


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## Blythe

Briss - so lovely to read your message :)

you are doing the right thing staying away from the newborn situation...its too much. 

this crap has made me more sensitive to other women and i am proud to say i would NEVER be so insensitive. 

Briss - i have been working with this woman [my old yoga teacher] doing Skype sessions. i have been feeling so very dark as IVF clinic told me no point in IUI as DH's sperm did not bind to eggs so I'm thinking no bloody chance of natural conception either and IVF is no longer justifiable. Anyhow, she is helping me find some more hope and change some of my thought processes. Its very basic stuff and we are working through exercises together. I speak with her via Skype [audio only] for 20/30 mins before work on a friday morning. Please look at her site...i will ask her how much she charges as my free ones are finished soon [i got some free ones with the yoga dvd i brought which is also great]. A lot of it is manifesting and i was doing that for a couple of weeks and i think that is what brought on my mini breakdown. I was manifesting my baby in the morning and evening and then doing the yoga and then doing these lines [something she recommended] and i just thought...this is BS and i cannot magic a baby out of thin air. so i told her all of this and she has really helped me start to view things differently. I was getting quite dark....although there are other things contributing to that too....

https://www.imsublime.co.uk


that aside....i hate waiting....all this waiting for the bloody IVF clinic to contact you. However, once they do hopefully it will then be a fairly swift process to get you in and started. I would certainly recommend you get all the info you need in the meantime so you are ready to go ahead with IVF in Germany. A back up plan is crucial for getting through this.


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## kits

I just want to say I love you very much ladies & I do pray for you.

A million :hug:


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## Briss

*Blythe*, it's so hard when people close to you just do not get it, they can be so hurtful most likely even without realising it. 

Thank you. I will definitely check her website properly. I looked briefly at her advice on food and it seems like she is against milk? what does it mean "manifesting your baby"? I mean practically what is it that you do? 

I just got my FSH results and they are terrible. FSH of 14.2 with estradinol of 431!! super high, with such levels my real FSH is much higher than 14. I am quite shocked. last time I had such high estradinol levels on CD3 it was due to a cyst so quite possible I cant even do IVF right now because of a cyst. but last year with such high estradinol levels my FSH was suppressed to 8, not 14.2!! This is just devastating, it's actually getting much worse with every month. it's going to be another super short cycle. I do feel like crying of complete hopelessness.


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## Blythe

Briss - i have just emailed fiona and asked whether her techniques could help with someone who has elevated FSH levels. I will let you know what she says.....and i have asked her how much she charges for the sessions.

these stats change from month to month....my e2 was 259 when i started my LP at the beginning of the year and then cancelled due to cyst at which point my e2 levels were nearly 1172...one cycle later the cyst was still there but only 1cm so they went ahead with SP. They never actually took bloods to check which is a bit crap. Anyhow, please please please don't get too upset. I know you have had one thing after another to deal with and its just too much but i really want you to keep focused on the future and keep on going. IT WILL HAPPEN AND YOU WILL BE HAPPY :)

the manifesting stuff was a bit much for me....you know the whole trying to see yourself holding your baby and imaging how it feels, what they smell like etc etc.....i simply cannot put myself in the picture...i just observe it feeling very sad. i don't want to say too much else about the techniques she is using as a lot of it involves writing stuff down...the first things that come to mind and then she uses the answers to base the exercises on. I really do think it would help you.

i have to say that i am finding it difficult to fit the exercises in as i have no time at the moment with work stuff but I'm going to give it as much as and when i can.

what i love about her is that she is just not interested in my excuses or my reasons for it not happening...she seems quite certain that her techniques will help me become pregnant.


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## Blythe

i just got the reply...

_Regarding your friend, her situation is not uncommon and I have facilitated other women in similar positions. The course is not for everyone so it would be best I have a 30 minute consultation with her to see if she is an ideal fit for the course.

Here is a link to my course rates:_

https://www.imsublime.co.uk/fertility-centre-fertility-course


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## Blythe

Actually the fees are much steeper than i thought they would be.....still i would recommend the consultation.

i also have the dvd which cost £60 but it is very good....you get 60s mins free Skype with her if you buy the dvd


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## Briss

*Blythe*, thank you so much for your kind and encouraging words, somehow it makes me feel so much more positive. 

re the manifesting thing, I actually did something similar in the past but it only works when you have a real chance to get pregnant. when you know it's unlikely going to happen it's a torture. I may do that during IVF cycle cos again, I feel we have a chance at pregnancy but while TTC naturally it's just too much. 30 minute consultation sounds perfect. Do you need to like her on facebook to get the free consultation when you buy her DVD? I really cant share any TTC related stuff on facebook. I may get her yoga DVD but then again I have so many already if I only I practiced any of them&#8230; Do you like her DVD? The prices are WOW but again I would not mind paying if I knew this would help us but obviously no matter how great my body is it cannot fix low sperm count so I wonder if it would be better to spend this money on natural IVF in Germany 

Did you ask her about Distant Energy Field Healing? it sounds interesting actually https://www.energyfieldhealing.com/yourhealingsession.htm. Things have been so bad for me and for so long, maybe it's not a coincidence maybe I have some kind of energy flaw or something? 

from what I know estrogen levels on CD3 should not be more than 200 (in a natural cycle). Mine are always on the upper side but when I had my last FSH checked with my FS before she referred me for the IVF mine was 8. I did ask her about my estrogen levels and they were 430! she said it's obvious that low FSH is not real cos it's being suppressed by very high estrogen level but she referred me anyway. I also had a scan at Create and they found this cyst on my left side which disappeared after a few cycles but I am pretty sure it was the cyst that was producing so much estrogen. Now my situation is just so much worse: very high estrogen and even higher FSH. Dr E says my high FSH is not an issue for IVF cos he thinks my ovaries are fine and will respond to synthetic FSH during stims. I really hope he is right. 

re milk, I've been thinking what I changed in the last few months that could have an effect on my FSH and early O and one other thing that came to mind was milk actually. I started drinking much more whole milk than before. I wonder if this could have any bearing

re coffee, I need to find it in me to seriously cut down on coffee, just do not know how. it's a straggle every morning and in the end I lose every single time. I guess if I knew that we are starting IVF I'd have more motivation cos I know we may have a chance here so I need to give it my all, as things currently stand I just feel it's all hopeless so why bother one cappuccino is not going to make a difference to our TTC but it makes a huge difference to my happiness. 

I am having this terrible headache since yesterday, similar to what I had last month minus the vomiting. I think this headache at the start of my cycle is somehow related to high FSH but cannot explain it.


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## alison29

Blythe I buy into the manifesting ideas. I do think you have to have "a vision" of what you want before you get it. I don't know what mental block I am throwing up. I do feel better and more joyful when i visualize and meditate. It is fun dreaming about it. BTW they have some really cute black and white maternity stuff and old navy (see that is the dreaming part that makes me do that lol) Plus someone blogged about it so i had to check it. When you are 9 months pregnant it seems black and white are safe colors. or you may look like an easter egg. 

Don't forget Briss you have been doing the herbs too just being the devils advocate here. I cringed about the dairy thing i went to Blythes ladies site and read about it although i have read if before it's easy to "forget". I have been enjoying lactaid and string cheese daily, the whole milk is too good.


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## Blythe

just a quick one....dont bother with the FB like. I no longer have an account and explained that to her so its no bother.


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## Blythe

Briss - whats that little L for on your chart for today? I have been eating lots of ice lollies and cold drinks....and tuna and tonight i am going to have some peas. I am wondering if perhaps my new anti-fertility diet be the winning formula. I will report back.

i also have a reiki session booked for sunday morning. I am in some serious need of something....something i just was not getting from acu and herbs. Having said that when i was doing the acu and herbs my nails were long but when i stopped i bit them all off...again i will report back! 


Alison - hello :flower: your post about manifesting is so positive. I wish i could be a bit more like you....i used to feel excited about TTC and enjoy thinking about how things were going to be. Each month i would check to see what the due date would be and start planning how i would tell boss, arrange maternity leave etc.....

It should be an exciting process but I'm afraid i just lost it around the 2 year mark. I want badly to manifest certain things in my life but indulging in these fantasies brings me no joy. I explained this to Fiona [yoga teacher] and she said i effectively needed reprogramming and so we started on some exercises to help with that...and it has.

i really do want to do it though...i have some time off work this week and intend to try again!

Kits - hello :flower: hope you are feeling well and no more scares :hugs:


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## Blythe

I brought one of these....

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Babystart-...06960747&sr=8-1-spell&keywords=fertily+saliva

i know when i ovulate but it is interesting seeing the ferning starting to develop.


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## Briss

L is for low reading on my cbfm. Low again this morning. I used to love a few lows cos that would mean my 3-4 highs will start later and later ovulation. Now I only get one high so its all messed up. Am off to a wedding will reply properly tomorrow


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## alison29

Can't wait to hear bout reiki...I loved ACU felt energized and relaxed just so much time and $$. Blythe that sucks about your nails. Extra iron and rubber gloves for cleaning r helping. People with great nails must get out of dish duty. Don't forget it takes 6 months to regrow a set of nails. I think they are a great indicator of nutritional well being along with hair and skin. Any one ever get eczema? I don't have bad its just irritating and a sign something is amiss.

My good friends baby shower is soon . I am jealous and so sad for her all at once. Her baby will be seriously I'll in nicu for many weeks. I can't imagine that. My work friend is moving up to gonal f next iui..plenty of progress all around.


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## alison29

Can't wait to hear bout reiki...I loved ACU felt energized and relaxed just so much time and $$. Blythe that sucks about your nails. Extra iron and rubber gloves for cleaning r helping. People with great nails must get out of dish duty. Don't forget it takes 6 months to regrow a set of nails. I think they are a great indicator of nutritional well being along with hair and skin. Any one ever get eczema? I don't have bad its just irritating and a sign something is amiss.

My good friends baby shower is soon . I am jealous and so sad for her all at once. Her baby will be seriously I'll in nicu for many weeks. I can't imagine that. My work friend is moving up to gonal f next iui..plenty of progress all around.


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## somedayisnow

*Blythe and alison29*, I too am trying to manifest my pregnancy and baby. I do think there's something to visualizing one's wants and needs. I also have a mantra I say out loud (which can get weird if I'm in public :haha:) any time I have a negative thought about the outcome of my journey. I say my name and then recite, "...you are going to get pregnant, you're going to have a healthy pregnancy, you're going to have a healthy baby, and you're going to raise a healthy child." For me this completely annihilates those thoughts and keeps them from entering the atmosphere.

I had the strangest experience at acu yesterday. He once again put a bunch of needles in my scalp as well as other areas (forehead, hands, abdomen, ankles) and I was so uncomfortable. My scalp was in pain to the point where I was about to call the doctor back into the room to remove them when suddenly I hit the deepest relaxation point I've experienced so far at acu. I mean, I hadn't a care in the world, my mind stopped racing, all pain and discomfort stopped, and I was able to just be.

For the longest time I kept hearing about people falling asleep on the table but I've never been close to that. I'm just too high strung. :wacko: BUT yesterday, I felt like I was floating and if my appointment had lasted 5 minutes longer I would have been :sleep: on the table. My doctor said that I hit Nirvana. I like Nirvana. :cloud9:


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## Briss

*somedayisnow*, I like your mantra! You had an amazing acu experience. I sometimes feel very relaxed and feel like i can fall asleep but never do.

*Blythe*, that Ovulation Microscope sounds like fun. interesting how ovulation means so many changes throughout your body. I am being faithful to my cbfm for the time being :) still low but I am going to be depressed if I see a peak tomorrow with no highs in between. I am totally with you on anti-fertility diet. how was your reiki session?

*alison*, I decided to cut down on milk for a little while. My hormones are not quite right and oestrogen is weird and I read that milk can contain hormones. I think it's probably a US issue but just in case. I may change my mind cos I think herbs are more powerful than milk really and I do love milk...

*afm*, I was about to complain about my "luck" but then decided to turn it around and look at it positively. Basically at that wedding everything was great except that we somehow ended up at the "pregnant" table. I mean honestly, there was about 12-15 tables and there was 6 couples at our table and 3 huge bumps!! the bride does not know anything about our TTC business and there were mainly couples at the wedding but all bumps were at my table :( I was upset about it last night but reading your posts decided it was a sign, a positive sign of good things to come. I prefer to think that there is only one explanation why I ended up at the pregnant table is cos I belong there, I will be pregnant very soon


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## Blythe

Briss - thats the spirit!! I believe very much that you will be pregnant soon and i cannot wait to come on here and read about it!! 

I am back from my reiki treatment and i really liked the woman who did it. It was far more relaxing that acu and i will wait to see how the next few days pan out in terms of how i feel/respond to the treatment.

many years ago i did the level 1 reiki training which means i can do it on myself and on others although i cannot remember what i am meant to do, other than place hands on bits of my body. I will do some internet research and maybe start trying to do it on myself before i go to sleep. I am hoping for some kind of energetic shift as i have been so stuck and i am determined to change the way i see things.
I am off work this week so will do yoga 3 times and some of the mental exercises i agreed with fiona so hoping by the end of the week i will have pulled myself out of the hole and can start thinking optimistically again about becoming pregnant.

i do like my new gadget but i have a rough idea of when i ovulate...this month i am checking cervix, doing fern test and using OPKs and DH is still doing herbs and having acu specifically for fertility....bless him!!

Somedayisnow - i have been indulging too much recently in dark thoughts and i am determined to turn things around. Words are so powerful and the constant internal chatter is exhausting...i am consiously examining some of my repetitive thoughts around TTC and changing the words and replacing the crap things with good positive things. Its hard work and slow but it is working. Your acu appt sounds fab :flower:

Alison - Have you got eczema? i sometimes have really aggravated skin around my creases [knees and arm] which is eczema like...i also used to have asthma and i believe the two were connected. Im afraid i know very little about it though.


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## somedayisnow

*Briss*, the first thing I thought when I read that you were assigned to sit at the pregnant table was that you were being given a sign that your turn is coming. Full disclosure: I'm usually a glass half empty kind of person, which I'm doing my best to change, but the universe was obviously trying to get a message to you and I'm happy that you were able to see it, hear it and feel it. :hugs:

*Blythe*, the dark thoughts are a constant battle of mine but I know from past experience that I need to fight back with even more forceful positivity. That's why I voice my affirmations. My next mini project is to create a vision board and hang it in my bedroom as another constant reminder to keep my eye on the prize. On another note: I really need to research reiki. What I know about it could fit into a thimble.


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## alison29

Someday I love your mantra will try it out
It could be a sign from the universe being at that table with all those bumps: your timeis soon.


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## alison29

Yay I have some eczema on foot and scalp..its itchy and flaky gross


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## somedayisnow

So my acu wanted to extend my 25 day cycle to 28 days and so far it's working. Today is CD28 but if I don't get AF tomorrow, I may just freak out a little...a lot.


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## Briss

*somedayisnow*, looks like your treatment is working and cycle is getting longer! although I am keeping my fingers crossed AF wont show up. I am naturally a negative person and being a lawyer does not really help the situation cos I focus on what can go wrong several times a day. and when I see a half empty glass, I focus on the point in time when it's going to be completely empty to try and figure out what to do now to be prepared (I almost have a fear of not being prepared for the worse) so basically what I see is just an empty glass all the time &#8230; sad. It takes a lot of effort to break that chain of thoughts

*Blythe*, your reiki treatment sounds very positive. is it more relaxing than massage? I was discussing reflexology with Dr E and he actually said that he does not find acu relaxing at all, and reflexology practiced in Europe is a far more relaxing experience. although it's very different in China where it's super painful but then it has medicinal value unlike what we get here. anyway, I am doing it for relaxation and blood circulation purposes cos my feet are always cold. I am totally desperate for energetic shift as well but for me I think it's a question of getting the right mindset. I am trying very hard to do what you do i.e. stop negative thoughts and replace them with opposite positive alternatives even though it seems rather artificial. I just know with time I will get used to thinking positive naturally 

has anyone been taking growth hormone? looks like UCH wants me to take it but it's not covered by the NHS. I wonder if this is safe? I still have not got a clue when I am going to start my treatment and what protocol I am going to be on. but at least I know they have not forgotten me. I am going there this week for an appointment because apparently they want to discuss something before we can go ahead with the treatment. the nurse could not be more specific what it's about but I sure am glad something is happening. 

got my PEAk this morning on CD10, so ovulating most likely on CD11. glad to be back on my short cycle (did not think I'd say that). Dr E says he expected this cycle to be a little better with or without the herbs so he does not yet know if the herbs are working. we may see it next cycle unless we start IVF. Again, he said until we know the protocol we cannot say how we should plan acu sessions.


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## alison29

Briss is it the HCG booster shots human chorionic growth hormone? I have read about ladies getting HCG booster shots after IUI to help progesterone production and the lining and such. This is what comes to mind when you mentioned it but it could be something else for sure.


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## alison29

Oops sorry it is human chorionic gonatropin (but i thought it was a growth hormone) let us know. Don't want any false ideas i may have to stick :/


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## Briss

*alison*, I've been reading (obviously!) and it seems a lot of people get HGH and HCG confused. They are both used for IVF but my doc was talking about HGH. looks like it helps egg development during stims and it has similar effect to DHEA actually. it does not make eggs younger but it gives them energy for chromosomal activity and dna damage repair (which younger eggs do with ease without any help). Clinics seem to use it for poor responders (like me) and over 35 so I think I will give it a go. ladies seem to be producing more eggs and better quality embryos if they take HGH during stims. it's quite costly though at about £130 per injection.

There is an interesting discussion here https://www.fertilethoughts.com/for...773-human-growth-hormone-saizen-omnipure.html

Many patients respond well to a typical ovarian stimulation protocol and go on to achieve pregnancies with a relatively basic regimen. However, some women are poor responders and fail in vitro cycles despite an intense protocol. Poor responders are classified as those requiring a higher dose of gonadotropins, have a low ovarian reserve and are over the age of 35. Often these women have cancelled cycles due to lack of response to medication. In these cases, human growth hormone (hGH) may be indicated to shift the hormonal balance to a more favorable outcome.

Throughout our life the pituitary has the ability to produce the same amount of hGH. However, as we age the pituitary has a more difficult time releasing the hormone. Naturally occurring levels of hGH are highest during adolescence when maximum growth occurs. As women age, hGH secretion diminishes. At the age of 60, a woman will secrete less than 25% of the hGH secreted by a 20 year old. 

Benefits of hGH during in vitro fertilization were originally reported approximately 20 years ago, but its use was never widely used. Eggs naturally produce an analog of human growth hormone known scientifically as IGF-2. This factor promotes cell growth during the follicular phase of the menstrual cycle. Studies have demonstrated that hGH may improve the ability of the egg to repair damaged DNA. This is thought to help with egg maturation and quality, especially in older women.

While the exact course of hGH treatment must be prescribed a fertility doctor, generally the subcutaneous injections are taken for about six days during stimulation. Saizen and Omnipure are two brands of hGH prescribed for infertility.


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## alison29

very interesting and exciting..


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## alison29

I am so glad they are going to try a different protocol, it seems insane to me to redo what isn't working...I am so ready for all of us to tweak something and get our BFP. Interestingly I was reading and coffee is a cross reactor with gluten antibodies so if a person is avoiding gluten they should probably avoid coffee too. IDK just another theory. I had always figured coffee was a villan because of acidity, and caffeine but now it could be an inflammatory in another way.


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## Briss

*alison*, coffee is a huge issue for me. every day I tell myself I am going to stop from tomorrow and every morning I seem to be unable to do anything until I have my cappuccino. it gives me so much pleasure! but I really need to seriously stop it cos it looks like we might be starting IVF soon


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## alison29

Maybe you could do half calf for a couple weeks then decaf for a week then i don't know what to get you going as caffeine free :(..I know I am having a hard time with caffeine too. 

So are you getting the NHS funding? I am excited for you.


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## Briss

I did not have coffee today!! I know one day is nothing but it's one small step for me.. 

I think we are getting the NHS funding!! I am so glad I went for the FSH blood test and did not wait for acu/herbs to make it better cos that turned out to be the only cycle when i had acceptable FSH levels just below the threshold, all 3 cycles after that my FSH was much higher so we would not get a chance. that was really lucky and might have made the difference for us. 

I do not know the details yet. They are not very organised and short staffed at the moment. I think we would still have to pay 2-3K ourselves cos I want IMSI + additional things not covered by the NHS like this growth hormone. but it's nothing compared to 15K which is what it costs on average in this clinic. Fingers crossed I will get good news tomorrow at my appointment. I really want to get a scan tomorrow cos I suspect I might have a functional cyst (cos of high oestrogen levels) so there may be a further delay. but I prefer to know than start down reg with nothing. again, no idea what my protocol is but the nurses seem to assume it has to be a long protocol.


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## Blythe

Briss - well done on the coffee!! i go through phases of drinking caffeine [current phase!] and then ditching it entirely and having healthy alternatives. I always feel so much better when it is not in my life...possibly as a result of mental control over what i put in my mouth rather than the absence of caffeine.

still, try and maybe alternate days if you cannot bear to be without it as the benefits of cutting it out and its effect on fertility are now so well documented....it has to help right!?!

Im so pleased things are moving on the treatment front....its so great you have the option of 'add ons'....there was no such thing at King's!! Thinking of you today at your appt...please report back :flower:


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## Blythe

I have just had my last session for the time being with Fiona and she is really brilliant. I have moved from feeling hopeless to optimistic about becoming pregnant again. I was unable to move away from the IVF and the result but she has completely detached me from that...she has clients that have become pregnant after failed IVFs. She has some clients that have no periods so i really am her no.1 fan at the moment. 

She does IVF support....i believe it would be much more effective than zita west's hypnosis cd which i did and it just didn't cut it [well was ok just not brilliant].

I have a leaflet but it is PDF so cannot link here - happy to send so if anyone wants it DM an email address. Do sign up for her fertility newsletters. I am going to do a liver flush detox which is outlined in the latest one was sent out last night.

This month i took clomid....it was there taunting me in my cupboard so i thought sod it. Im not sure what i think about my fern test now. I had very strong ferning patterns and an almost positive opk about 4 days ago [i think i ovulated last night on CD13]. I clearly get a E2 rise a few days before ovation which fits in with presence of ewcm then too but around ovulation very little.


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## Briss

*Jazzbird*, how are you doing? not long now?

*Blythe*, you are back! your sessions with Fiona sound amazing! you sound so positive, I am very happy she was able to help you get your spirits up. I know what you mean re zita west's cd, but I cant even stick to that. Will definitely get Fiona's fertility newsletters

re clomid, do you hope to get more than one follicle? 

strange that you got strong ferning patterns so far in advance of ovulation. I am actually confused about my O as well this cycle. I thought I ovulated yesterday on CD 12 (I am probably just dreaming!) but FF thinks it's CD10, hope FF is wrong but I will only know for sure when AF turns up and I can count 14 days back. 

re coffee, the problem is that I actually feel much better when I have coffee in my life and TMI my digestive system works perfectly, something about coffee that makes me go right after I finished my cup so basically it's like a good morning routine coffee/toilet at the same time every day, not surprisingly it was not as good yesterday, somehow without coffee my bowels get lazy. it also takes a little bit from my happiness cos I simply love the taste and enjoy it so much! but never mind all that when I get pregnant I wont have any until I finish breastfeeding. I tried a few alternatives but none came even close to replacing the real thing. I may try Swiss water decaf next. I am holding on without coffee today but most likely will have some tomorrow.

re treatment, still not sure if they agree to add IMSI but this is simply crucial for us. I just figured if they asked to take HGH and pay privately why not add something else? anyway, I will know more after the appointment hopefully


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## Blythe

i really like my cups of tea in the morning [with sugar and milk] and i know exactly what you mean re toilet habits....nothing beats black coffee for that! I just feel better mentally when i have control over what i eat and drink. Im not a huge fan of the taste of coffee but i do really love the effect of caffeine and it really helps me get through long mornings at work.

i took the clomid as its there and I'm hoping i will pop out a couple of eggs instead of one [i did have 3 x large follies when i took it the first time and the cycle was monitored]. You never know!!


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## Briss

I am starting tomorrow!! Suddenly feel unprepared... Waiting for my meds now. Funding confirmed!! How lucky are we! No growth hormone for me unfortunately due to medical history. Really gutted :( they call it short protocol but its long actually cos I start on CD 14 the cycle before. Wasted all that bd cos the meds thin the lining so no implantation. Not that we had much chance. I will be on Max dose of stims


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## alison29

OMG so excited for you BRISS! I am praying for twins :) That's funny you should say how good coffee makes you feel I was talking about htat with a friend who is cycling and how hard it is to kick. I think it's so hard because there are no apparent bad feelings when you have coffee it just makes you feel top of the world..Unlike alchohol which can make you tired or feel hungover the next day so when quitting that you can bring up those BAd feelings..It does wonders for the digestion I agree. Today so far have had black tea one cup (it's only 11 am here though so not so noteworthy yet)

I can't wait to hear how many eggs you grow, i am glad you are doing max stims woo hoo.


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## alison29

Blythe clomid is known to make a better egg too and better luteal phase. It really dries me up though. I almost missed O because I was waiting to do OPK after started getting moisture down there. I tried using an injection of preseed. DH was like wth is all this wet stuff lol.


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## Briss

suddenly having second thoughts&#8230; maybe I should start next cycle cos "what if" that might be our lucky month and we can get pregnant naturally? Huge part of me just does not believe we stand a chance but there is a tiny one that keeps nagging "what if" "what if". I need to make up my mind cos supposed to start tomorrow. 

also they did not do a scan so I do not know if I have a cyst or not, I was told it's only relevant for the base scan before they start stims. 

I think I will have a cup of coffee tomorrow but it will be my last one. I survived another day with no coffee but it's just no fun.

*alison*, I am not getting my hopes up, I think my top limit is around 6 cos I practically have only one accessible ovary but even then not sure if we can get that many. and yes, twins would be great!

*Blythe*, hopefully you will get a few lovely eggs this cycle!


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## Blythe

Briss - wonderful news re funding. Are you going to be on 450 glonal f?


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## Briss

*Blythe*, I am so happy about the funding cos everything was against us and my FS did not think we'd get it, I was so stressed about it and for so long :( it'll be a huge help cos I just do not know how many it's going to take... I am on menopur 450 and lots and lots of other stuff which I know nothing about. I could only recognise the trigger, cetrotide and progesterone but there is so much more... they said they will explain as we go alone cos before we start stims it's not relevant and they want to make sure I have no cysts and the lining is thin before we can start stims. I may have to repeat down reg a few times before we get there


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## Blythe

Briss - you must do whatever causes you the least stress. its good to start these things with a clear head...if that is possible. If you can delay for 3 weeks then why not? I know these bloody weeks do tend to go on forever. Im sure you will wake up this morning having made a clear decision though :flower:


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## Briss

I've started Norethisterone, was a bit stressed but it turns out Norethisterone is just progesterone?? the nurse said it's supposed to thin my lining and "quiet" everything but I do not think that's what it does. It just seems to regulate the timing for IVf so my AF starts on a weekday (they do not do scans on weekend). they are trying to delay my AF by 2-3 days so my AF starts Monday-Wednesday :( it's not really down reg, is it?


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## terripeachy

I'm not sure about norethisterone, but what happens if you have follies that are super close to getting a specific size and it's the weekend? Will you miss out because of their office hours?

I do know that progesterone delays AF, so if that is similar to the noresthirtone, maybe that's what they are doing. You're paying good money-always ask them what they have you putting in your body and why. And then report back, of course.


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## Briss

*terripeachy*, my NHS clinic works with a private clinic which opens 7 days a week so once we start the cycle EC/ET will be done at that private clinic but the first scan and most scans during stims will be at the NHS clinic which only works 5 days a week. so it's only a problem at the start of the cycle, after that if I need a scan on weekend it will be done at the private clinic. No idea why it works like that but the main reason I asked for this clinic is cos I can cycle effectively at the private clinic but paid by the NHS, if that makes sense. 

I did ask the nurse about Norethisterone but I think she got it slightly wrong it does not really quiet my ovaries. I also do not think it thins the lining cos I found ladies who got pregnant while on Norethisterone. 

They are delaying my AF by 2-3 days, so I wont be able to tell when I ovulated (not that it matters that much) but most importantly I know that follicles start to engage at the end of the previous cycle so I wonder what's going to happen if they are not allowed to move on on day 1 as they planned but instead will be delayed by a few days?

I am so hopeless, once I found that Norethisterone is not down reg and just to time AF so I am still on short protocol and have not actually properly started the cycle &#8211; basically my motivation to quit coffee is out of the window&#8230;


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## terripeachy

Oh I see...I thought it was all done at the NHS clinic.

I hear you on your coffee consumption. No need to stop until it's absolutely necessary wacko:). I wouldn't worry about what your follies are doing because once Day 1 starts, they are all back at 0, no matter when you ovulated. Not sure when your down reg will start, but after that once AF arrives, you'll start your stimming process and go from there.I'll keep my eyes on this thread, so just let the doctors do what they do, and try not to worry so much about everything. :hugs:


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## Briss

*terripeachy*, I will be keeping you all posted on my progress (whether you want to or not), I just cant go through that on my own. I wont be down regging so once AF starts it's straight to stims


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## gingmg

Briss- so excited for you to start a cycle! I'll be rooting for you!


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## Jazzbird

Hi all, just wanted to stop by and tell you I had my baby girl Autumn Elizabeth on her due date. We're all doing well. She's amazing.

I wanted to thank you all for your love and support through ttc and my pregnancy.

I can only imagine the pain some of you must still be feeling on the ttc rollercoaster and how each announcement must hurt. You are all in my thoughts and prayers every day. 

Xxx


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## Blythe

Congratulations on your lovely news:flower:


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## Briss

*Jazzbird*, most wonderful news! congratulations!!


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## terripeachy

Congratulations!! Perfect timing, too...:)


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## Irish_eyes

Hello everyone, sorry I haven't been around much at all lately. I made the decision to stop doing acupuncture as I felt it just wasn't for me both financially and mentally. I stressed so much about how I was going pay for it each week (my hubby's income isn't great) and I found I wasn't getting much enjoyment or relaxation out of it a I would with Reiki or Reflexology. 

At the moment AF is starting and I am feeling so emotional at the moment. I haven't felt this way about TTC in a long time but I am feeling so sad and angry about not able to have a baby. I am not sure if it's to so with a colleague in work is in 3rd tri and there's a lot of excitement in work for her. I am also reaponsible for calculating the maternity leave!!! 

Anyway thought I would pop on to see how you all are. I have to read back and catch up with all the going ons. 

Briss, good luck with IVF, how exciting. Finally the agreed your NHS round? I am going to pray hard for you as you so deserve this. 

Jazzbird congrats on your baby xx


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## somedayisnow

*Jazzbird,* Congratulations! How was labor? Give us the details.

*Briss*- I love that you got the go ahead from NHS. I'm so happy for you.

*Irish-* I think you made the right decision. Get rid of anything that causes you stress.


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## Briss

*Irish*- I agree with somedayisnow. I had similar experience with my previous acu doc, she was terribly expensive and even though i could afford it I still did not feel the treatment justified the expense (i was comparable to the cost of IVF treatment!) and I found myself being very stressed about the money side of it. it's just not worth it. 

If money is an issue I would not spend a lot on reflexology either actually. my acu doc said it does not really help fertility, it's just for relaxation but I am sure there are cheaper ways to get relaxed. 

I am very angry with myself for coffee, I still cant shake it :( I really must!


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## alison29

You can do it briss...have you tried going decaf? It still has some caffeine while weaning off? I tried ordering decaf at Starbucks yesterday and didn't want to wait for pour thru. So got half calf really crapped up my progress towards decaffing. On vacationvthis week so indulging in everything :/


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## Delphine11

I'm only an occasional poster on this thread, but I just had to say a huge congratulations to you, Jazzbird :hugs: 

I can't believe she's here! Wishing you and your family much joy and happiness XXX


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## Briss

*alison*, I think the only decaf which is safe to drink is Swiss water one but coffee shops do not usually have it, they only buy cheaper chemically decaffeinated coffee which is actually worse than normal coffee. I think my problem is that deep down I probably do not believe IVf is going to work anyway so why bother. not great approach so I really need to work on my mind set


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## alison29

Good point about the chemicals always forget about that. There is no reason at all ivf won't work for you..youre young and doing icsi for dh problems. Practice the positive thoughts even if feels stupid ..fake it til you make it! Do something for 42 days in a row til it becomes a habit. The positive thinking part. Just being a cheer leader I understand how frustrated you feel this is taking way too long :/


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## Briss

am sitting here trying not to drink coffee, but nothing just tastes good. I usually love green tea but it just cant compare to coffee :(


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## smurfy

Briss said:


> am sitting here trying not to drink coffee, but nothing just tastes good. I usually love green tea but it just cant compare to coffee :(

Know what you mean, I only have one cappuccino a day and my clinic says its fine whilst doing IVF I will stop once embryo has been transferred. Coffee makes me feel good and I need something whilst going through this long process


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## Briss

smurfy, thanks! makes me feel so much better cos in the end I miserably failed and had a small a cup :(


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## gingmg

Don't beat yourself up over coffee. All things in moderation...


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## Irish_eyes

Briss - I was never a coffee drinker but ever since I worked at a place that did filter coffee about 7 years ago I started getting a taste for it. So I would normally have a cup first thing in the morning at the weekends only because that is all my DH drinks and he hates the smell of tea so if he makes me a cup...it's coffee! So that's how I started to drink it in the mornings. Then in the last year the new girl I work with only drinks coffee and now I am finding that I could drink at last two cups a day which is not the norm for me. I am also finding it hard to quit it too. 

Did you ever do Reiki?

I went to my practitioner last week and found it so much more relaxing.


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## somedayisnow

Irish - I'm glad reiki is working out for you. Are you still doing reflexology or was that someone else?

Briss - Personally I consider drinking less coffee - in any amount- a success. Perfection is too nerve wracking to achieve. :hugs:

afm - I'm still doing acupuncture. He's trying to reduce the cyst I have on my right ovary.


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## Briss

*Irish*, I've never had Reiki. I am glad you are enjoying it though. I think it's very important. 

*somedayisnow*, cant agree more. one cup of coffee a day is actually not easy for me cos I used to drink coffee and nothing else (well, not quite I did drink a lot of green tea as well but the point is coffee my was my main drink at any time of the day &#8211; I really do love it!) I was trying to drink coffee mindfully this weekend and with every sip concentrate on the negative, just trying to find anything negative about coffee and dwell on it for as long as I can. I really thought it was working cos by the end of the cup I was feeling very strongly about not having any more coffee ever&#8230; until the very next morning, that is when I could not think of anything else

*afm*, just had my acu, was very relaxing, the only point that was painful was between my thumb and my index finger, I think the needle went into a nerve or something cos it feels slightly painful even now. There were no ovary points today but two new tummy points closer to the middle (not REN points). Dr E seemed very familiar with my protocol which is very re-assuring. He said the treatment will follow the protocol so will have to be adjusted depending on how things go and the next session should be scheduled once I start stims. He was not bothered with me not getting HGH and said that only UCh is using this hormone, other clinics do not think it's useful so even through it sounds like a great thing there is currently little proof it does anything at all. I was also told not to take any DHEA and Dr E said this is purely UCH's thing, other clinics use DHEA but UCH for some reason does not think it helpful. particularly it does not work well with short protocols cos it creates a build up of progesterone at the start of the cycle which prevents proper stimulation. He also confirmed that norethisterone is effectively progesterone so he disregarded my chart saying my LP looks perfect but it's all down to norethisterone. he also agreed that my natural AF may be trying to start when it is supposed to so I may get spotting until I stop norethisterone which is what's controlling my cycle. He actually did not think I have a cycle anymore, it's like a serious of events that are going to happen now as a reaction to medication I am going to take but it's not a real cycle. He also said 450 menopur is not the highest dose he's seen, it's the highest for UCH but other clinic practice 600 apparently. 

well I feel strangely re-assured and slightly more hopeful after the session. 

I was a bit depressed this morning. A lady from another thread "stole" my secret dream (3 embies transferred but one split so she ended up with 4!). it's very silly of me but quite for some months now I was imagining having 3-4 babies on board, I know this is hardly possible considering I am a poor responder and won't get more than 2 to transfer anyway but somehow you know there is this idea that if you want something you should imagine it and try and make it feel real (similarly to "secret" philosophy) and I've been doing exactly that only whatever I dream about happen to other people &#8230; so yes in a way it does seem to happen in my life just not to me. clearly I am doing something wrong. I should probably stop dreaming and concentrate what's really happening (or not happening more like it) in my life&#8230;


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## Briss

I think I finally feel the effect of norethisterone - somehow I am so terribly angry all the time, so easy for me to almost get into a rage sort of state for no good reason. at one point I even woke up in the middle of the night cos I got really angry about something in a dream! I woke up feeling so angry I could have hit my pillow :( I wonder if this could be norethisterone playing up with my hormones? norethisterone is effectively progesterone so in Chinese terms more heat right? anger is empty heat so I guess getting more heat just makes me more and more angry. does that make sense?

I also got a mild itching down there - not something I usualy have, very unpleasant I really hope it's not some kind of yest infection. not sure if thhis is related to norethisterone.


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## alison29

It sounds like hormonal rage to me. My friend at work has angry dreams while on clomid. It would be right time of year for yeast with the heat and humidity. If you treat the down there buy a seven day they seem to work better than 1 or 3. I would also warn dh of hormonal crazies.


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## Briss

What do you take for yeast infection? Some kind of cream? Do I need to ask them for a test?


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## Blythe

isn't natural yogurt quite good for that...it would be good if you could knock it out with natural methods. Having said that are you expecting a bleed soon pre stims? hopefully that would help?


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## Briss

I am actually not sure its yest infection cos I have no discharge, it's very localised itching (only on left side for some reason) but getting stronger every hour :( am panicking a liitle cos this is the last thing I want before starting stims. I am away visiting mum until Tuesday but I will try to see a doctor tomorrow, not sure how yet but I really need to get it sorted asap cos it's noticably getting worse. now that I think of it it may have started after we BD last time (DH was lazy and did not take a shower!). I actualy had proper yeast infection after "dirty" sex a few years ago when we just started TTC so after that experience I have been quite careful making DH have showers before we BD but last time I just did not care :( 

tomorrow is my last day on norethsiterone, cant wait tbh cos anger thing is really bad, I was shouting at my poor mum many times over today and feel very bad about it. I did tell her it was down to hormones but she was not convinced (I do have anger issues, just not this bad). I did not feel anything like that on progesterone suppositories though...


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## Blythe

Do you get a bleed after stopping the norethsiterone? At least you know the anger is connected to that and as a result it will pass soon enough. I am just waiting on AF so also having crazy rages. Last night i was discussing joining the gym and DH suggested getting a piece of exercise equipment and putting it in the front room. I thought it was the most stupid idea i had ever heard and so i started shouting at him! It was totally irrational and looking back on it quite comical although he looked totally scared of me!

So i am joining the gym today...something that would never have happened whilst obsessively TTC. Its all part of me trying to take some control back in my life. My new goal is to look [and feel] good naked by christmas.


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## smurfy

Blythe said:


> Do you get a bleed after stopping the norethsiterone? At least you know the anger is connected to that and as a result it will pass soon enough. I am just waiting on AF so also having crazy rages. Last night i was discussing joining the gym and DH suggested getting a piece of exercise equipment and putting it in the front room. I thought it was the most stupid idea i had ever heard and so i started shouting at him! It was totally irrational and looking back on it quite comical although he looked totally scared of me!
> 
> So i am joining the gym today...something that would never have happened whilst obsessively TTC. Its all part of me trying to take some control back in my life. My new goal is to look [and feel] good naked by christmas.

Very good I think it is important as you say to try and get back into normal things in life. I stopped my exercise except for walking for about 3 mths due to IVF and then recovering from OHSS. Now the last 6 weeks I have been running, swimming and cycling and I love it again, it really distresses you and you feel nice and tight afterwards. I will continue this until mid sept when I have my baseline scan, I will carry on running and cycling and give up the swimming as I don't think the recommend it.

Enjoy the gym maybe try a few classes to make it fun, so many out there now. I was also thinking I might try yoga or Pilates from when I have the baseline scan.


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## live_in_hope

hi ladies! :wave:
Sorry to jump in on this. I started acupuncture about a week into this cycle (its quite a long cycle) but ive had 4 sessions and ive already noticed a difference. My temps are stable, my lp is like no other (i usually have very low post ov temps, many dipping below coverline etc) but this cycle there is a clear shift and its stayed up high :thumbup: she has recommended me some changes to my diet which I have done, not 100% as some are quite difficult but I am making a conscious effort at every opportunity. She has also mentioned herbs but wants to wait to see if i am pregnant or not first just incase. Im 10dpo today so watch this space. :thumbup:

Im having it aswell as i suffer with my sacroiliac joint in my pelvis after my first pregnancy. Ive already noticed an improvement with that also :thumbup:

I will be checking to see more positive stories as Ive heard so many good things! Xxxxx


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## Briss

I cannot believe this!! This is f**** unbelievably bad luck. it's not yeast infection, it may be herpes!!! where would I get herpes?? seriously!! of all days and months and years TTC it had to be 3 days before we are due to start IVF which we've been waiting for 9 months and finally got the funding and now it's all going to be for nothing cos you cant have IVF with herpes. I am devastated :( but the doc who saw me said we obviously need to wait for the test results (which is going to take a week!) but she was quite sure it looked like herpes :( this is absolutely terrible. how could this happen to me? I am starting the treatment now just in case but the tablets are for 5 days and suppositories for 10, I am just so lost and upset, do I tell the clinic? what if they tell me they cannot treat smb who has herpes and I have to look for a different clinic now? can I still have NHS funding if I have herpes? 

could I get herpes from a scan at the clinic? I am pretty sure DH does not have it, we have been TTc for years I never had anything like this.


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## terripeachy

Oh crap! I'm sorry to hear that Briss. A lot of people have it and it can remain dormant for years. There is tons of information on the web about it. But most people have the type where it's just a cold sore. I can't remember if that herpes 1 or herpes 2. Most likely IF your DH had a cold sore, and he performed oral on you, he could possibly transfer it. Otherwise, not sure where else it would have come from if you've never had any signs/symptoms and he hasn't. I would ask him. As far as telling the docs that you have it; that is a tricky situation. I would ask around here and see what others have done. I'm sure someone has been in your situation. 

I do know that when I had my first and only cold sore (2 years ago), I asked my doctor what would happen if I had one when I was pregnant and she said that depending on how far along I was, they would induce me so the baby wouldn't get it. I thought that was pretty scary. Thankfully I haven't had another. My mother passed away and I guess if I I had it, it was dormant, and the stress of the situation caused an outbreak. I hope you don't have it though. Talk to DH and see what he knows. :hugs:


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## Briss

I do have cold cores (on my mouth) from time to time but do not think I had it recently. without going into detail I do not like oral sex on me so DH never does it so that scenario is unlikely (although bit of kissing is possible, cant really remember if any of that was happaning recently). My mind is racing with various scenarios but I really cant think of anything. I am sure DH never cheated on me (I know many women are clueless about their husbands' exploits but my Dh has fobias and it would be very hard for him to get physically close to anyone, as far as he is concerned people are speading germs :) )

been reading on the internet and apparently you can still have IVF with herpes but not in active form, it has to be treated first. also looks like almost 30% pregnant women have it. it wont be passed to a baby only during delivery if you have an outbreak. the scaries scenario is if you get it for the first time during pregnancy, particularly last couple of months. 

basically from my reading to get it it has to be skin to skin contact with infected area. ??? my private area was not touching any skin but my DH's for many years now. as you say, maybe it was dormant? it's pretty painful now so I'd definately notice if this happened before. maybe that time long ago it was not yeast infecton but herpes? it looked different and there was discharge, hard to say.


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## terripeachy

Yeah, it is tough to say until you get the results back from the lab. Hopefully it's just some kind of irritation, maybe from the applicator on your noresthrinone (sp?) or something else. I'll hope that it's something else, and goes away soon. Will you be able to finish your treatment before IVF? That might be your savings grace, and glad you found out this week instead of further along into the process.

I'll be stalking to find out what it is. :flower:


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## Briss

*terripeachy*, you were spot on actually, I just spoke to DH and he said he actually had cold cores recently!! and he did kiss me down there I recall now though it was such a brief thing, evidently that was enough. what a fool!!!! it did not occure to him that cold core is actual herpes that can be passed on. he feels terrible. but what about me? I get it for life now! it's really shocking cos I never blow him when I have cold cores, he probably thought that was just an excuse I made up when I could not be bothered :( so angry but I guess the mistery is solved I just have to deal with this mess. the timing is bad but not disastrous if all goes well it should be treated by the time I get to EC/ET so it should be OK. this is based on my reading I have not spoken to the clinic yet so they may have a different view 

still, I went through my wild youth with not a single STD and be getting something like this at this time of my life and from my own husband is just stupid ... :(


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## terripeachy

Oh no! I wouldn't wish that on anyone! When I had my cold sore, I wouldn't even kiss my now husband...we were just dating then, and I was too afraid of passing it to him. This is after I thought that he might have given it to me in the first place, but he said he never had it. I think I must have picked it up somewhere, and then when dealing with my mom, it just made it flare up. I am so sorry you have to deal with this, but yes, it's not disastrous and hopefully you can get everything cleared up before egg retrieval. I also think there are meds to prevent it from happening again, but that might be something that you have to take forever, which is not cool. And I hate to say this too, but your husband should feel bad. We are too old got be getting herpes for the first time! Hopefully when you hear back from the lab the doc tells you it's something else. fxfxfx


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## somedayisnow

Oh Briss, I'm so sorry. You don't deserve or need this aggravation right now. I get cold sores too, have since I was 12 or 13 years old, so I'm always afraid of them transferring to my genitals. Hopefully, this won't set back your IVF cycle. I don't even know your husband and he's probably a lovely person but I could just kick him in the shins for you.


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## Blythe

Briss - when can you expect results back? I so hope this does not delay your cycle as i know how upsetting these setbacks can be. I have everything crossed that it all can proceed as you expected it too.

Terripeachy - i saw on another thread that you had tested and i just wanted to say how sorry i was to see that. You seem like such a lovely lady and always so encouraging to others. Will you be having a blood test? - if so, i hope that it shows a different result for you. IVF is such a big thing to go through and its just a lottery IMO.

Smurfy - not long now for you until baseline scan.....do you know the meds you will be taking? are you DRing first? Yoga sounds like a good idea...anything that helps ground you and keep those crazy IVF thoughts in check....:flower: I did an aerobics class yesterday for the first time in about 5 years and it was an absolute killer but i did it and i felt genuinely good!


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## Hope3

Briss said:


> *terripeachy*, you were spot on actually, I just spoke to DH and he said he actually had cold cores recently!! and he did kiss me down there I recall now though it was such a brief thing, evidently that was enough. what a fool!!!! it did not occure to him that cold core is actual herpes that can be passed on. he feels terrible. but what about me? I get it for life now! it's really shocking cos I never blow him when I have cold cores, he probably thought that was just an excuse I made up when I could not be bothered :( so angry but I guess the mistery is solved I just have to deal with this mess. the timing is bad but not disastrous if all goes well it should be treated by the time I get to EC/ET so it should be OK. this is based on my reading I have not spoken to the clinic yet so they may have a different view
> 
> still, I went through my wild youth with not a single STD and be getting something like this at this time of my life and from my own husband is just stupid ... :(

Hi Briss

Sorry to hear about the herpes. I've had it for 20 years. I think of it as a minor inconvenience most of the time. When the sores coincide with ovulation that's when it gets annoying. 

As your London based I would recommend you get in touch with the Herpes Viruses Association for advice. I've found them extremely helpful in the past. If you get the director on the phone, beware, she's lovely but luuuvvves to talk! 

It sounds as though you have HSV 1 which can be passed from mouth to genitals & vice versa. HSV2 is genital herpes. Obviously it's too early to tell if the virus will be mostly dormant or reoccurring. Try not to worry as stress can trigger outbreaks. 

Watch your supplements. L-Argenine is a no-no for herpes sufferers. L-Lysine helps to suppress the virus. 

Best of luck.


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## Hope3

*you're


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## alison29

:( sorry Briss. The meds should help clear you up fast.


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## smurfy

Blythe said:


> Briss - when can you expect results back? I so hope this does not delay your cycle as i know how upsetting these setbacks can be. I have everything crossed that it all can proceed as you expected it too.
> 
> Terripeachy - i saw on another thread that you had tested and i just wanted to say how sorry i was to see that. You seem like such a lovely lady and always so encouraging to others. Will you be having a blood test? - if so, i hope that it shows a different result for you. IVF is such a big thing to go through and its just a lottery IMO.
> 
> Smurfy - not long now for you until baseline scan.....do you know the meds you will be taking? are you DRing first? Yoga sounds like a good idea...anything that helps ground you and keep those crazy IVF thoughts in check....:flower: I did an aerobics class yesterday for the first time in about 5 years and it was an absolute killer but i did it and i felt genuinely good!

Yes down reg from day 23 with buserlin the baseline scan, carry on with buserlin then take some tablets to thicken up lining transfer will be done the same time as for fresh.

Keep up the exercise especially if you feel good x


----------



## Briss

*Hope*, thank you! that's so helpful. My DH is completely distraught by this, he did not even feel the cold core so he did not realise he had it until a few days later now he is so depressed. Once i get my test results back on friday i will then hopefully know more about this and will contact the Herpes Viruses Association for advice. 


*afm*, full flow is here finally so i called the clinic and booked my scan for tomorrow. I still do not know if they go ahead this cycle cos i only spoke to a nurse but I figured I'd better go there and talk to a doc in person. today is my last day on herpes medication and I feel 90% cured but not quite. as soon as period started properly I could feel minor burning sensation so am worried AF may aggravate the condition. I will only get my test results on Friday so until then I am not even 100% sure it is herpes. also, I got a cold it is really bad, for the first time I did not go to work for 2 days, I always had my colds in the office but this time t's just really nasty, I can't even read anything without getting terrible headache. so one more obstacle to starting IVF this cycle.


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## Blythe

Fingers crossed you get the go ahead briss. I have everything crossed for you :flower:


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## Briss

Blythe, thank you! I did not get go ahead today unfortunately cos my lining is still thick it's 5.5-6 mm and they want it below 5 mm. My ovaries are ready but there are only 4 follicles on the left side and two on the right. fortunately neither herpes nor cold has any relevance. as long as I did my herpes treatment which I finished yesterday they are happy to proceed provided my lining gets thinner. They booked me for another scan tomorrow to see if the lining gets thinner.


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## terripeachy

Do you have to continue taking noresthrinone to thin your lining, or are they hoping it goes down naturally? I'm so glad you can move forward. Phew! One hurdle crossed. You're so close.


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## Briss

I stopped norethisterone on sunday but my period only started properly yesterday. I think norethisterone actually makes lining thicker cos it extended my LP from 14 to 19 days so there is more time for lining to build. but I am not sure it works like that I am only guessing. They hope one more day of AF will take some of the remaining lining off naturally.


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## Blythe

oh yes - one more day will do it then its all systems go!!! very very excited for you Briss :flower:


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## Briss

good news my lining went down from 5.5. to 3.8 mm in one day, ovaries are quiet so we are good to go! just got a call from the clinic to tell me that I am starting the stims tonight! 

I survived (well, just about) the dilapam today, 3 hour agony, well maybe not exactly agony but it was pretty uncomfortable and taking it out also proved to be quite an exercise. I just hope it helped. I now have to take antibiotics cos dilapam comes with a risk of infection. 

my herpes test was completely screwed, the clinic messed it up and they did 16 other tests none of which was for herpes. bloody idiots! I will never know now if I had herpes. they did find some minor yeast infection though so am also going to take suppository for that but apparently it does not prevent us starting the stims. 

I was prescribed a new medication &#8211; dexamethasone &#8211; it's a steroid! I am supposed to be taking it during stims to improve egg quality and follicle development. obvious side effect being that it suppresses my immune system, not great considering I am recovering from a nasty cold but whatever helps my eggies I suppose


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## alison29

Hi Briss,
I am keeping up with your posts. Nothing much to report on my end ttc wise. WE have a three day weekend here though. Really hoping for you and my work friend to get bfp this cycle. She tested today after IUI 5 eggs and donor sperm. 12 dpo 4 hour pee hold BFN. I am really hoping it's just that she didn't hold for long enough. So what is the dilapam?
Stims sound exciting but emotional..stims make me a hormonal mess very reactive . I hope you are less sensitive. So how is the fertility diet going?


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## Briss

dilapam is for the cervix, they open it so the transfer can be done easier. very uncomfortable procedure! I so hope we will get to transfer this time. 

I am on no particular diet but quit coffee and trying to eat more protein. vitamins are the usual pregnacare conception, coq10 600, fish oils, vit E, C, D, folate


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## Blythe

great news about the lining.....and well done on quoting the coffee! How are you finding the stims so far - i found putting hot water bottle on my tummy beforehand really helped with the injections....

Your clinic sounds really great and I'm sure you are in the best hands possible - so much better than kings who keep it very basic. What day do you have your first scan?


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## Briss

so far injections have been fine (I only had one) but I get constant headache and not a mild one. maybe that's why it was easy for me to quit coffee I just feel it will make it worse. 

am supposed to wear a card on me saying I am on steroids :) sounds awfully serious 

my next scan/bloods is on Monday


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## alison29

I knew u could do it! Proud of u. That procedure sounds very rough glad is over.


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## somedayisnow

Briss, I'm glad things are working out for you. I laughed at the part about having to wear the cards announcing that you're on steroids. Who exactly is supposed to be checking? :haha:


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## Briss

thanks ladies, am slightly worried if i respond to stims at all and that we started off with a very low number of follicles but it's all out of my control now. also cold is getting to me my temp is constantly raised at 37 not sure how great this is for stims but again not much i can do.

I think steroid card is for emergencies but hope it won't come to that :)


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## Briss

looks like max dose of stims may not be much better than low stims for me, have only 2 follicles growing and a few small ones hopefully catch up. they told me to stay on the same dose and add cetrotide from tomorrow but they do not need to see me before Thursday. not much they can do cos I am already on max dose. A bit depressing I was hoping to see some progress today. hoping for a miracle on my next scan


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## terripeachy

How big do they want your follies to be before you trigger? The small ones may catch up depending on how quickly the two large ones are growing. Remain positive. The body is unpredictable especially when taking drugs to make it do some things and not others. :flower:


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## alison29

I agree with Terri those small ones can catch up ALOT can happen in a few days.


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## Blythe

Briss - it was only after 4 days of stims so still early. I had had a few more days of stims and there were lots of little ones and only a handful of the larger ones....

how are you feeling? are you sleeping well?


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## gingmg

Stopping in to cheer you on Briss!


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## Briss

*terripeachy*, I think they want the follicles to be aver 18 before they trigger

*Blythe*, thanks I am still hoping. a colleague just returned from her maternity, I know I should be used to this by now but I am still upset thinking about people getting pregnant having babies spending a year on maternity and coming back and I am still here doing the same thing. I am sleeping OK but hate waking up at 7 am for cetrotide injections. 

had my acu session today, Dr E is hoping to have one more session during stims and then one for ET. points are still the same, so hoping it will help me grow more healthy and mature eggs.


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## somedayisnow

Briss, it aint over till it's over. FX


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## Briss

Thank you ladies for your support! a quick update, no miracles for me unfortunately after 6 days of stims on 450 menopur only 3 follicles seem to be growing (one on the side where I have a cyst so may not be accessible), the rest are small and does not look like they have time to catch up but I am still hoping. Will have one more scan over the weekend. I guess at this point I am just glad they carry on with the cycle and still hope for a positive outcome. I am trying to stay detached from the process cos up until EC there wont be any certainty as to whether I have any eggs and if I lost any to early O and up until ET I wont know if any embryos have survived so I have not cancelled any business trips yet and will deal with that when I get there. I have to be honest the fact that this is an NHS funded cycle takes so much pressure off, for some reason I'd be more upset now thinking how much money we are wasting. taking money worries out of this is huge actually. although I guess going forward it's just going to be a natural IVf for me


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## Blythe

Briss - thanks for the update. I have been thinking of you and will be keeping everything crossed that it all progresses well. Hopefully you won't have to think of natural IVF for quite some time....at least a year or two :flower:


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## Briss

Blythe, how are you? 

I was so upset today, also put on a lot of weight in the last couple of months so nothing fits again! so went out and bought myself a new suit for work, slightly larger size :( but at least i can breathe in it. things at work are falling apart I think it's only a matter of time before they will ask me to leave but somehow I do not care that much


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## Blythe

It's so difficult to maintain a decent weight. I have joined a gym and been jumping around and generally feeling so much better but my appetite has gone through the roof. I have been snacking lots too so actually now look wobblier than ever!

I have ovulated really early this cycle...I was accepted to do the CB trials so saved a month on forking out for OPKs. They are the flashing smiley face ones....i started testing on CD8 as recommended and blank face and solid smiley face the next day. I would never pay for these ones and always go for the cheaper non flashing face kind. I know other women have had issues with these ones too. anyhow, that aside i think i ovulated around CD10....you never know an early ovulation may work for me!!

i have not been taking supplements for a few weeks now......after the shock of the IVF and hitting a new low i have moved into a new place. I don't think its a place where i have accepted it but i don't feel so consumed by it. I have had the diversion of looking for somewhere to live outside of london and the obsessing about finances as it looks like i would need to find a new job, but one that is outside of london. Sometimes i just sit there and say sod it, lets do another IVF but if it failed I'm just not sure how we would move forward....im not sure we would survive it intact. Its all about the finances...


why is work falling apart? are you sure you are not being too harsh on yourself as you were recently promoted? when you get pregnant it won't matter a bit....although you know that already.


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## alison29

Those opks do cost a ton. I buy the cheapest strips 20$ for 20 answer brand. 
I have been trying to pair down my supplements too. It has to save a ton of money. 

Briss don't worry about the weight just now keep eating right. I know when I cut down on caffeine it makes me hungrier and it burns less fuel also the hormones make me ravenous. I am praying for great fertilization rates for you. 

My work friend's iui with 5 follicles failed WTH! It's just crazy. They told her well even fertile woman only has 20% chance each month. I was thinking more like 75% chance seems like most fertiles i know get utd in two months or less. Plus would,'t five eggs be like 5 tries?


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## Briss

I am getting even more depressed, one of my follicles has grown bigger than the rest and my LH is rising despite cetrotide so I think my body is gearing to ovulate despite all the medication. I feel like the history is about to repeat itself and we may lose one egg to early O. why is this happening to me all the time? Why would they not give me indomethacin to prevent ovulation between the trigger and EG? I know indomethacin is mainly used in natural cycle but what's stopping them to use it here? we have waited almost a year to try again and having exactly the same result would be a disaster, I barely survived our second failed IVF 

sorry for being so negative, I just do not know what to do, they seem to be determined to carry on even if we end up with just one egg but one egg from a natural cycle and domical follicle cannot be compared to an egg from a stim cycle, the quality wont be there. just so upsetting 

*Blythe*, i think early O is probably a sign that your body is still recovering from IVF. I am dreading to think how my body is going to recover from all this :( 

I really think IVF will work for you, you had 14 eggs which is amazing compared to my 3 :) at UCH they would definitely do a split IVF/ICSI cycle and also apparently they do assisted hatching to all embryos. you are a good candidate for IVF so definitely something to think about. 

I have not progressed much in my legal knowledge in the last 4 years TTC and it started to show that technically I am behind even more junior colleagues. I do have some strengths but not enough to hold on to this job for very long. at the moment there aren't enough people so I am probably safe but as soon as they hire somebody I will probably have to go. my promotion was actually not that great, I got the title but not the money that were supposed to come with it but I only found out about this much later. I was also promised a bonus which did not materialise :( one other colleague is off to maternity and I am stuck with her workload on top of mine...

*alison*, thank you, at the moment I am not even sure we will get any eggs. for some reason they won't consider turning it into IUI and trying another (hopefully NHS funded) cycle. probably cos they think there is no point stimming me any more.

I am OK without coffee, I do want it but at the same time it's probably my mindset but I almost feel sick when I see people drinking cappuccinos, I think quitting coffee is possible if you are motivated by (a real chance at) pregnancy but if my cycle fails I am pretty sure these capiccinos will look pretty appealing 

5 follicles does not mean 5 eggs, also some may not be of good quality. I asked if my clinic can go after small ones and mature them in the lab but they told me no point as these follicles are unlikely to have good quality eggs 

I did not use CBFM this cycle but started using OPK to track my LH cos that's my major concern now.


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## Blythe

This bit really is so very nerve wracking. I was torturing myself by reading about stories of early ovulation on cetrotide BUT there is not that many out there. It can happen but it is rare. I was told that ovulation of all eggs had only happened twice in many many years at King's. I know this does not help when there are a few follies but you just have to hand yourself over to the process. They have dealt with hundreds of cases like yours and they are making decisions based on experience and specialist knowledge. It may be they are not interested in the larger follie which might become too mature if they use indomethacin and want to focus on those coming up behind it......

Briss - you will handle whatever is coming your way. I hope with all my heart it is this cycle that will result in your long awaited pregnancy but if it is not you will survive it and you will continue with natural IVF cycles alongside TTC naturally and it will happen.

It is rubbish you have had to pick up your colleagues work and I'm sorry to hear they have not given you a raise to go with the job title...that is very poor! No wonder you are not inclined to give it your all although i know full well that is not that is not the reason why. You are focusing on what is important to you. 

AFM - i did take climid last cycle so i suspect my early ovulation connected to that. My post IVF cycle was ok. i recovered well from IVF although i cannot lie the few days post EC were not pleasant due to awful swelling and exhaustion....


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## Briss

Had another scan today and not looking good. Only 2 follicles ready for trigger so ideally need one more day of stims but if we wait we may lose the largest follicle. They told me its rare but clearly it happened to me before. They will make the decision later today. All very sad. The only good thing is my lining. Was told it's the best he has seen today :)


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## terripeachy

They will make the decision today to stim one more day or to trigger tonight and go in for collection on Monday? I hope they trigger you tonight. I don't want you to lose that large follicle. 

Before you said you had one large one and two smaller ones. What happened to the other one and which one was it? I am also PRAYING that this works for you. But...you can't be feeling down...emotions play a huge role in this process and nothing can be gained by being a debbie downer. :flower:


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## Briss

there are two follicles on the left that are ready for trigger but there is a smaller one on the right that need more time to grow, there a few smaller ones on the left as well but theses are unlikely to have time to catch up. so I agree I think we should trigger today cos we are risking to lose the best egg in exchange of waiting for the smaller follicle on the right which is the side where i have a cyst so it may not be accessible on EC or of poor quality anyway.

been begging for indometacin cos i am a believer it helps to keep follicles from rapturing between the trigger and egg collection. they game me the whole pack :) I think just to calm me down cos the doc said he does not think it will help but he sees no harm in trying. 

am just seating here anxciously waiting for the call that will decide the outcome of this cycle


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## Briss

more bad news for me, my LH went up yesterday and they want to abandon the cycle :( the problem is I do not know if I can get the NHS funding refunded so we could try again. if we can't get the funding then we should take the risk and go head with EC on Monday. I do not understand why they did not pick on my rising LH yesterday, they should have probably triggered me yesterday. Why does not cetrotide work to supress my LH? I am supposed to make a decision tomorrow but I am really lost, if we abandon this cycle I am not sure there is any point in doing any more stim cycles, 2 failed cycles where I do not even get to EC is not a good record.


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## Blythe

Briss. This is bs!! I'm so sorry. I hope they will be able to confirm the finances before they make you make such a decision. They should be reassuring you that if cycle abandoned then you can start again and that if will be fully funded. 

Did they take bloods yesterday? Have you taken trigger shot yet?


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## smurfy

Briss said:


> more bad news for me, my LH went up yesterday and they want to abandon the cycle :( the problem is I do not know if I can get the NHS funding refunded so we could try again. if we can't get the funding then we should take the risk and go head with EC on Monday. I do not understand why they did not pick on my rising LH yesterday, they should have probably triggered me yesterday. Why does not cetrotide work to supress my LH? I am supposed to make a decision tomorrow but I am really lost, if we abandon this cycle I am not sure there is any point in doing any more stim cycles, 2 failed cycles where I do not even get to EC is not a good record.

So so sorry for you, they must confirm the funding situation before you make a decision. We're they doing daily bloods and why if they did test yesterday they only tell you today ? they normally get bloods back same day before you take stims in evening. If there is any chance go for it. Sending you a hug x


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## kits

Praying for you Briss, absolutely loads.

:hug:


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## terripeachy

Will you be able to get in touch with someone from NHS before Monday? I hope that if it is cancelled you can get your money back. I'm so sorry that this is happening to you. It's so frustrating especially because you know your body, have done the research and no one wants to listen to you. I'll hope for the best possible outcome for you. :hugs:


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## Briss

I've been reading up online and it does not seem like there is a quick answer re funding, most likely they won't know for sure cos it's a process, you apply again stating the reasons any the cycle had t be abandoned and they make a decision. it also means that the clinic will probably bear the cost of this rather than the NHS, they may not be too happy about it. 

I did blood daily but for some reason my yesterdays results were not available until today. 

I did my trigger tonight in case we go on with EC on Monday> I am going there in the morning on Monday for a scan and if follicles are still there I think we will go ahead. I do not want any more stims, they just do not work for me. if we lost my large follicle than it's tricky but probably best to abandon the cycle and hope funding will be available. if not then just too bad, I forget about the NHS and carry on privately with natural IVF.

Spoke to my mum, she is totally devastated for us, the amount of bad luck we are getting is disproportionate. on the other hand what did I expect? I knew my funding was always questioned because I am not a good candidate for IVF and here is proof why.


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## Blythe

Briss - thinking of you today and hoping tomorrow brings you some good news. :flower:


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## somedayisnow

Every body part of mine that can be crossed is crossed for you Briss. :hugs:


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## Briss

We had a bit of a miracle this morning. The scan showed that the follicle was irregular shape which means the egg was trying to get away but they got it right in time!! And 3 more!!!!!!! I am still in shock I asked them all about 20 times if they really got the eggs just could not believe it. Obviously its hard to say if they fertilise but I think the large one at least has very good chances. I am in so much pain at the moment. Ovaries are really sore I can't even walk. I also bleed red. Is this normal?


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## Blythe

That's really great news Briss. I too was in a lot of pain after and had plenty of paracetamol for a day or two after. Red blood is perfectly normal and I went through of couple of pads with a period type bleed so nothing to worry about.


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## BBbliss

Briss, I haven't been here in a long time but wanted to say I've been praying for you. I really hope this is it for you after such a long road :hugs:


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## alison29

what a nightmare Briss :(


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## Briss

*Blythe*, I am relieved to hear that cos at Create they handled me so much gentler, there was no pain or bleeding so i was sure I will be up and running cos am supposed to work but I could not even walk we had to take a taxi, and at home I was just so uncomfortable can't sit can't lie down, whatever pose I pick it still pains as if they played football with my ovaries :( particularly the right one where I have the cyst is really worrying. I am not taking any painkiller as I want to observe the pain in case it gets worse. 

*BBbliss*, thank you so much! when i started having ovulation pains last night i thought we lost it, my DH even got dressed for work this morning cos we were sure they will cancel the cycle and we will just go to work. it's so interesting that you can actually see the follicle is changing it's shape during ovulation :) still, they said there was no guarantee the egg was still there so there was a risk - definitely needed a miracle here!

*alison*, I know, I did not expect it to be so rough, having gone through two EC before. I guess my ovaries are a bit sensitive to touch, cos I always feel my dominant follicle growing and ovulating. 

I could not believe they got 4 eggs, I was told there were two follicles and a smaller one on the right so when the doc came in I asked where he got the 4th follicle from it was so funny cos I think they all got tired of me already and he said the 4th egg definitely was not his :) 

am still in pain but I think it's getting a little better. I am hopeful again. yesterday I completely switched off my emotional side because I could not take it any more, I started looking at everything that was going on as a task in hand with no emotional strings attached and it helped I think because I was about to lose it.

DH got himself well deserve beer

another shocking thing is my weight, they put me on scale and I did not believe what i saw, never in my entire life was I 59 kg! normally (well, in the past) I am 50/51 and I look seriously fat when I am 55/56 but this is really bad. the nurse said it's definitely the medication


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## terripeachy

Glad all went well...and now we wait to hear the fertilization results. Are they going to call you tonight or tomorrow?


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## alison29

YAY BRISS! You are taking on fluids from the meds. I gained a ton of weight too all at once and my ovaries were huge very sore couldn't button my pants (just injection cyle not IVF). My new normal is higher weight too. I am wondering if it is from absorbing more foods eating gluten free? Or it could be i eat more nuts now that gluten free IDK.
I am following thanks for keeping us posted. As for work friend it was mature follicles so I think they expected those to ovulate but as we know infertility is sneaky like that.


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## Blythe

Briss - do you know the costs of a private cycle with UCL?


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## smurfy

Briss said:


> We had a bit of a miracle this morning. The scan showed that the follicle was irregular shape which means the egg was trying to get away but they got it right in time!! And 3 more!!!!!!! I am still in shock I asked them all about 20 times if they really got the eggs just could not believe it. Obviously its hard to say if they fertilise but I think the large one at least has very good chances. I am in so much pain at the moment. Ovaries are really sore I can't even walk. I also bleed red. Is this normal?

so so pleased for you, this is a big step forward for you. normal for red blood similiar to AF colour and cramps. drinks lots of water to help flush everything out, the day of egg collection i easily put on 4/5 lbs was pretty sore.

Take it easy x


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## Briss

*Blythe*, it's really hard to say cos there are so many things that they add depending on your situation. I think it's something like 6K + meds but it can be more if you do ICSI, HGH etc etc some ladies were complaining that the medical staff makes decision without taking financial side in cos they do not know the prices but unless you check everything you can end up with 15K bill for a cycle. 


so far my main contact was with the NHS side of it and only over the weekend and today I met the CRGH staff, I think if they lead my stimulation it might have been even better cos the CRGH doc told me he would recommend abandoning the cycle (which i understand and if that was a private cycle I'd cancel it) and he was very puzzled why I did not have my friday LH results (I did the bloods but there were not results) which could have altered the situation and their decision, so there was a lot of miscommunication. but no where near the mess I've had on my second cycle at Create. 

also, if I did not insist and kept on and on about indometacin we would probably lose that larger follicle. NHS just said we do not prescribe it with stim cycle - same as Create but luckily I had my last scan at CRGH cos it was weekend and they just gave it to me and later doc confirmed that I should take it up until EC.

I found them very efficient but obviously slightly concerned with how much pain I am in at the moment and weather my ovaries are still in place and functioning. 

I can tell you more about their lab in a few days. i personally think you are a good candidate for stims but you need a place with a very good lab to handle your eggiest.

The embryologist should call me tomorrow with fertilisation report. hoping and praying


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## Blythe

hoping and praying for your little eggs overnight and that they become lovely embryos :flower:

oh gosh that is just too much for us :( if we ever went back to it it would be create or kings and I'm not really well disposed to either...


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## Blythe

Thinking of you today Briss. Hoping and praying for the best possible outcome for you


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## Briss

I am in hospital :( pain was just too much and even morphine did not help. Waiting for a scan.


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## Briss

Just got a call from lab, none of the eggs fertilised...


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## Blythe

I am simply devastated for you......so cruel. I was so hoping to see good news as you deserve it so badly. 

Did they say what the issue was. I wonder if the high doses of drugs compromised the quality perhaps....


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## terripeachy

Oh Briss...I did NOT want to read that this morning. I was actually so happy to come to this thread and check the update. I can't imagine how your feeling. Please, talk to someone (your mom, your bestie, a counselor) about this. You're already in such a fragile state, I don't want things to go overboard. You'll be in my prayers...Huge :hugs: I'm so sorry.


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## Briss

that's not the end of bad news, I have more :( after various tests and scans they found the reason for my terrible pain - I have blood inside my abdomen and most likely from my right ovary following EC. what did they do to my right ovary to make it bleed? shocking :( I was so happy yesterday. now I wish they'd cancelled the cycle I'd be so much better off now. my options are either wait it out hoping my body will absorb all this blood or have a laparoscopy to clean the mess :( 

words fail me, I am hiding in a place where no emotions are allowed because otherwise I just can't deal with this right now. am still in a lot of pain but was told nothing can be done until the blood clears which can take weeks...


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## Blythe

i have not stopped thinking about you today....im just so sorry that not only are you reeling from receiving that awful call but you have been in such pain.

:hugs:


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## smurfy

Briss said:


> that's not the end of bad news, I have more :( after various tests and scans they found the reason for my terrible pain - I have blood inside my abdomen and most likely from my right ovary following EC. what did they do to my right ovary to make it bleed? shocking :( I was so happy yesterday. now I wish they'd cancelled the cycle I'd be so much better off now. my options are either wait it out hoping my body will absorb all this blood or have a laparoscopy to clean the mess :(
> 
> words fail me, I am hiding in a place where no emotions are allowed because otherwise I just can't deal with this right now. am still in a lot of pain but was told nothing can be done until the blood clears which can take weeks...

Briss I literally feel sick for you, you do not deserve any of this. Focus on getting better, i hope the pain goes very soon. It sounds like you cant stay in pain waiting for the blood to clear so maybe the laparoscopy would help you recover - take care x


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## Wish4another1

Briss - :hugs2: I am so sorry this is happening to you :( I know there are no words that can make this better... please know there are several of us out here praying for you and hoping you heal quickly without any lasting complications

:hug:


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## Jazzbird

Briss - so desperately sorry to read your post. Thinking of you xxx


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## gingmg

Briss- I am so sorry to read your update. I know there is nothing I can say to make you feel any better, I just wanted you to know that I am thinking of you and sending love your way.


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## alison29

Me too , thinking of you..


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## somedayisnow

Briss, words cannot adequately express how much I wish things were different for you. Please know that you have many friends on this board who want the best for you and are sending positive thoughts your way.


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## BBbliss

Briss, how sad...I'm so sorry this happened to you :hugs: 

Look after yourself now, your health is priority and I hope you are getting better from the complications :(


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## kits

I'm so sorry Briss. You don't deserve this, all this pain and heartache. Still praying for you.

Lots of love


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## Briss

Thank you very much, ladies for your good wishes. It was very nice to read them all this morning. I managed to get some sleep which is a huge progress because of the pain I could not sleep even on morphine. the pain is still there but it somehow changed its location and moved up my tummy. no idea what this means cos the scan showed most of the blood was lower. the clinic has not called yet so I do not know what medication I should stop. just in case i did not start oestrogen but still doing progesterone and blood thinning injections which again no idea of they do any good or the opposite and antibiotics (good thing they started me on antibiotics cos the risk of infection is there). 

I personally think there should really be more care provided after EC cos haematoperitoneum - this is what I have is apparently life threatening. I was lucky the bleeding stopped by itself. I am also lucky (if this word even applies here) it was the right ovary which is not functioning well and has a cyst. at least my good left ovary is not affected. it was kind of sad how every one commented on the excellent quality of my uterus and the lining - no use if there are no embryos. 

*Blythe*, and here I was swearing off Create, at lease these guys did not harm me. They did not get me pregnant but my health was not compromised. 

so sad, I've been waiting for this cycle for about a year, have done and overcome so much to get the funding (btw we still have to pay for IMSI)... I guess my first instinct that stims are no use for me was right, looking back I should have carried on with natural IVF month after month privately but I guess I needed to try stims. 

The embryologist checked my records yesterday and noted that my eggs were granular which may indicate poor egg quality. I think on my second IVF we had similar issue but when I had a natural IVF my egg and the embryo were top quality so I guess my eggs somehow are being damaged during the stim process so considering I am not producing many eggs anyway we are better of with natural IVF. having said that, going through multiple ECs is a scary prospect considering my current condition.


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## melly2

Hi Briss, I'm so terribly sorry to read this. Words can't begin to express how much I wanted this to work out. Just know that we're all here for support and you always have us to lean on.


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## Blythe

Hi Briss - how is the pain...is it still in your tummy? 

Again i am just so very sorry that this cycle did not work for you. as you say though i think you needed to try a full stim cycle and now you know that the best way forward for you both is natural IVF. I only wish it was done like it is in Germany.....we should be able to do this in an affordable way. If so i would be like Dovkav and just keep going back until it worked.

thinking of you and hoping the physical pain has subsided


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## Briss

had a scan at UCH, they could see that both my ovaries were bleeding actually. the blood is still there and going to take weeks and weeks for it to be absorbed by body, pain is also still there :( the risks are just too scary to even mention. 

I was told bleeding is not uncommon but obviously my situation is a bit extreme, can happen to any surgeon apparently. they are going to monitor me. I may also need blood infusion, they will confirm later. 

Have not been to work this week yet, it does not look very good and may have consequences. I did tell them I was hospitalised but I really do not want tell them any detail 

am so constipated :( i think my body is afraid to go cos last time I almost fainted because of the pain

re egg quality, the doc explained to day that it's down to maturation, in a natural cycle the egg matures at just the right pace because my body knows what it needs but in stim cycles they have to guess with the doses etc so the egg maturation process in an IVF cycle is basically a guess work and they can get it wrong -hence granulation. I am happy with this explanation cos the alternative is my eggs are bad - do not want to hear that.

natural IVF cycle seems like a way forward but the doc said the more EC you have the higher the chances of getting side effects like bleeding :( I think I have developed a fear of EC. can you imagine going to Germany for EC and getting something like this? I do not speak german, where would I get help? NHS is free but I have no idea how this works in Germany. pretty scary. we may need to get Insurance for Germany -extra cost


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## alison29

The pain meds can do that BRISS try some stool softner before it gets too bad.


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## Blythe

Briss. Please don't fret about work.....Focus on getting yourself well and being kind to yourself. I hope they don't cause you any additional stress at this time. 

I understand your comments re Germany. Maybe natural IVF with uch? I know the thought if this happening again must be dominating your thoughts right now. 

When are you going back in for monitoring?


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## alison29

I bet they would have some folks there that speak English at the clinic.. As for higher chances of bleeding it could just be that they are covering for this mishap I would hate for you to be too scared of EC. I have never read about this happening on any of the boards or threads. How is DH? Drink tons of water for the digestion probably almost a gallon a day should get you going..


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## Briss

alison, thanks, I've been stuffing myself with prunes yesterday but no effect, then tried lactulose today and it worked. and most importantly pain free! 

Blythe, i read that the chances of getting internal bleeding after EC are so small, i must be just a super unlucky person :( I am reading about German clinics and ladies say they do not usually have more than 1-2 personal who speaks decent English. also all consent forms are in german etc. Dovkav's clinic does not usually work on Sunday unless there is an appointment, they also have lunch breaks, really strange. I will put together a list of questions and then speak to them. German clinics does not seem to be doing IMSI at all, they are very restricted in their services so that might be a problem for us. DH's last SA was just terrible, after 9 months on medication and no beer his count went down to 1.3 and morphology is still 1%, but motility is 90%!

it's really hard to figure out german clinics' ratings etc, so I may just end up going to a random clinic although ladies say the standard of care is very good wherever you go in Germany. Germany is not really an IVF destination. Chezh Republic seems to be a more popular choice.


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## Delphine11

Heartbreaking to read this, Briss : (

I really hope you're feeling better. You are such a strong woman, you really are. I don't often post on this thread but it's one that I always check on here. I was so hoping this would work.

My heart goes out to you...

Look after yourself. X


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## Briss

Blythe, I found this clinic in Czech republic - https://www.reprofit.cz/en/ivf/uhrada-cenik-ivf, quite a few people got lucky in thics clinic after a few failed IVFs in the UK but obviously the main thing is the prices, mild stim IVF 850 euro per cycle + meds + flights and they do not change you if no eggs retrieved!! I am super interested and trying to find out more. 

otherwise, feeling pretty depressed cos I really can't understand how they could have damaged my ovaries like that during EC, I am praying for no lasting damage but it seems like having blood inside is not a harmless thing :( the pain is still there but getting better


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## Blythe

Briss - I'm glad to hear that the pain is subsiding. 

i would be very interested in finding out about flight/hotel costs and the logistics of doing IVF in the Czech Rep. I wonder if you could start stims back in UK and just go there from CD5 or something like that..... I do remember emailing one of them some time ago...i wonder if it was this one. I will check old emails.

i am still very torn about whether to do IVF again tbh. it is getting to the point that if the right house comes along we will just go for it and that would mean me leaving my job and IVF would not be an option then. I just don't know....wanting a baby occupies my thoughts every hour of every day but the pain and disappointment and pure anger i felt about the IVF was just too much.

When you had EC at create, did you experience pain after? i was in a great deal of pain for about a week after EC and found it difficult to sit, lie and breath until the swelling started to go down but then again i did not have internal bleeding. The body does have an amazing ability to self heal and i hope so much that yours will recover soon. Such a horrible thing to deal with Briss on top of the pure heartbreak of a failed cycle. its so unfair that pregnancy happens so easily for some and for others they have to go through so much pain to get there. You will get there though Briss.


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## Blythe

i cannot find my emails from the CR...must have deleted them.

i was in contact with these guys in Germany....

www.fertilitycenterberlin.de

they do a full stim cycle inc. meds for less than 4K euros...not sure what they charge for natural although Dovkav was doing them for peanuts wasn't she?


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## Briss

Blythe, I did not know you were in pain for a week after EC. How do you know you did not have internal bleeding? Did you have a scan after EC?

I did not have any pain at all or bleeding after EC at Create, both times.

I still need to be very careful when I go to the toilet or tmi passing gas cos I can get sudden sharp pain if I am not careful. breathing is also still hard. I am more concerned with my ovaries cos i can feel them as if I am about to O. I really feel there must be something they can do to make sure I do not get more damage but at the moment I am not taking anything except for antibiotics. I wonder if there is a specialised gyno clinic in London and a great doctor that i could go to privately? do not even know where to look for it.

I think you are supposed to spend up to 10 days in CR, go there a few days before EC and yes you start stims in the UK, they can help with getting the meds, you can also do scans here in the UK. I joined FF thread on this Czech clinic. 

Dovkav had two clinics but she recommended the second one which was a bit more expensive. also I did not find anyone else why cycles with them so could not get more information.


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## Juliars

I didnt know about those personally, but I realized that I was doing some of that stuff inadvertently while trying to maintain a healthy lifestle. Now Im pregnant, and I really think it was because of that lifestyle change. 

I think its a good direction to go in, especially in comparison to the poison they give us and inject us with.


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## Blythe

Briss - i never had a scan after EC....i just remember being in a great deal of pain and my ovaries were throbbing with pain. I just thought that was standard. But it did get better after a week or so and once i had a bleed i felt more able to start moving away from the anger and heartbreak of it all. I wish i had had an embryo put back in and then it failed then...it would have been easier for me to draw a line under it all and move forward but zero fertilisation is really tuff. Actually it would all be much easier to deal with if it wasn't so awfully expensive.

How are you? are you back at work? are you still in pain?

i haven't been taking any supplements for weeks now and i actually feel no different physically or mentally. All that money and they have made no difference....well at least nothing i could describe. I always read the amazon reviews and have always been excited to try something new thinking it will do something amazing. Having said all this i think i will start taking my vit e, vit d spray and sprirulina or algae capsules and leave it at that. Once they are finished i will re-evaluate.

i have some new goals [made when very hungover]:

no drinking till december
lose one stone by December
gym/yoga 3 x per week
no junk food [well not much]

i feel very motivated so really hoping to look hot by christmas!


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## Briss

having gone through zero fertilisation twice now I am totally with you. I feel like in 4 years TTC I really had only one real chance at pregnancy when I had embryo put back on my first IVF.

I am still at home but working most of the time. My mum had a chat with a few doctors at her clinic and they all expressed concerns that I am just left with all that blood inside. some said I needed a lap to clean it, others said I need therapy for the blood to dissolve cos it won't do that by itself :( apparently there is an element in blood that can create all sort of issues when left like that. i am worried sick :( I need to seek second opinion and most likely privately but I can't find a good gyno. Mum also said everyone was absolutely shocked that something like this could have happened cos it's so dangerous apparently. I do not want to think about that, it's just too scary 

I like your new goals! Mine unfortunately are far more basic just to get out of this mess unharmed and with my reproductive health unaffected...

I asked about the scan because after they diagnosed me I started reading and found so many posts by ladies who describe their pain after EC and it was very similar to what I had and it got me thinking that maybe there are many cases of bleeding that go undiagnosed because women do not go to emergency and wait it out and it does become less painful every day. I am 80% back to normal except for pain in my belly button when I touch it it's really sore. but somehow I still have all this blood inside moving about, you can't even tell. 

they told me my bloods were fine but when I asked for the results there were half of the items higher or lower than norm. but they did change my antibiotics.


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## alison29

Hi Guys!
My goals recently eat 200 or calorie or less dinner (no food after 7)
drink 3/4 gal water a day, no more then one unit alcohol
grow amazing eyelashes (ordered the latisse stuff online)
not care about my lack of you know what!

I like your absitence till december blythe. Maybe i can get to that place again too. I was using food as replacement for wine therapy though so i am likeing that my jeans fit better now!

My brother inlaws wife just announced a pregnancy. My FIL said to dh they should abort it right away. Nice huh? I guess they are done with grandchildren and dislike the mom to be.

Briss I sure hope you heal up soon. What is holding you back from the lap? Work or just another procedure is too much with doctors that already screwed up?


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## Briss

lap as any surgery can create complications as well. but I am actually not offered one, the clinic did not think it was necessary and i do not know if it's just a cost issue considering it's the NHS or whether this is indeed the best way forward. 

my MIL is visiting, she could not pick better timing :( I am so bloated after the stims and all that blood, she asked if I was expecting.... I am sure you can imagine how I felt

I am going back to work tomorrow but I really do not know how to explain all this, people do not just get 1.5 weeks off sick so there will be questions


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## smurfy

Briss said:


> lap as any surgery can create complications as well. but I am actually not offered one, the clinic did not think it was necessary and i do not know if it's just a cost issue considering it's the NHS or whether this is indeed the best way forward.
> 
> my MIL is visiting, she could not pick better timing :( I am so bloated after the stims and all that blood, she asked if I was expecting.... I am sure you can imagine how I felt
> 
> I am going back to work tomorrow but I really do not know how to explain all this, people do not just get 1.5 weeks off sick so there will be questions

I hope your first day back goes ok. I know what you mean when I was signed off with OHSS in July I came up with a reaction to the day surgery I was having - they all brought it as they new I was in having something done. My doctor wrote on my sick note it was post op recovery. Take it easy I hope your are recovering well. take care


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## alison29

Briss would it be TMI to tell them simply "female problems" this makes all men back off right a way and honestly most women too. Although i had a friend ask when i was going in for a lap if i was shutting down the baby maker or getting it ready for another. I just said neither it's a cyst I was hoping that was what was in the way of my fertility.


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## Briss

alison, I am slightly afraid to say "female problems" as this may imply mc and they will start thinking I am TTC.

smurfy, in the end I said something similar to yours i.e. post op complications, and mentioned to a couple of people a few graphic details of internal abdominal bleeding, the pain etc etc, everyone felt sorry for me but I was told I look really well for a sick person :) goes to show that even being in hospital is healthier than working in the city... a friend who visited me yesterday actually also mentioned I should out something while/greenish on my face to make me look ill cos I look pretty well :) it was actually nice being at home, I cooked proper meals, slept all I wanted!! I could easily stay at home for a month. 

been back at the clinic for a scan and was told things seem to be moving in the right direction, bloods are slightly better so I may make full recovery. but a doc told me if I consider more IVF we need to be careful with EC next time :( slightly worried now. they started me on large doses of iron cos my levels are super low

I got my work insurance to cover a visit to a consultant at a different hospital, just want a second opinion on this situation.


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## somedayisnow

Briss, I'm so happy that you're being to feel better. I was worried about you. :hugs:


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## Blythe

Briss - i see you are on CD2...me too! I do hope that starting a new cycle can help you start moving away from this round of IVF and focusing on new ventures.

i hope that your week back at work has been ok. I see from your chart you are taking Haema....somethingorother...is that an antibiotic related to the internal bleeding?

on a completely unrelated matter we have squirrels in our loft...lots of them! i had a second visit from the rentokill chap this morning and he has laid some more bate....they did in fact set a trap off and i could hear the poor squirrel flailing around but when opening the loft this morning both the squirrel and the trap had disappeared. I can see them coming out of the hole in the roof most mornings and they just sit there looking at me...they have taken all the bait but refuse to die. There are lots of babies there too and i see the bigger ones looking at me :( I feel quite bad about being a baby squirrel killer and feel that it is possibly putting out bad vibes to the universe which obviously is why i did not get pregnant this month!!


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## Briss

Blythe, poor you fighting squirrels! must be very upsetting but that's really not the reason for a failed cycle I am sure you have enough good vibes being sent out to the universe :) my mum has a theory why this awful thing happened to me - full moon! there was full moon on the day of my EC so here you are... 

I am having nightmares every night, see myself taking out my friends' children for walks, going through many more IVFs all failing, two days ago it was breast milk! I dreamt as if I had breast milk but had to donate it... all very upsetting I am also scared to see this private doctor next week what if he tells me something awful and different from what my clinic is telling me about my situation. when I had my first scan at the hospital my left ovary (the only one working properly) was fine but when I came to my clinic two days after they said it was bleeding and now there is a huge bruise on it :( did it start bleeding later? I am so confused and worried. 

I am taking iron - Ferrous Sulphate and antibiotic co-amoxiclav. Haematoperitoneum is my diagnosis basically blood in abdomen, I added it to FF so i know how long it is taking for it to be absorbed


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## Blythe

I understand your fears around seeing a new consultant..but the more information you have the better able you are to deal with it. i hope the information he gives you is reassuring because you certainly deserve a break.

i have not had a dream about babies nor TTC related for so very long. After my failed IVF i had a burst of really wanting to do everything i could to get pregnant but now i don't have that. My DH has been drinking a fair bit...bottle of wine in the evening...not every evening but some. He shouted last night saying he needed a break...from the tablets, herbs, no drink etc etc Thats fair enough as i completely understand. I don't even know if cutting out the booze really helps.....or the chinese herbs. I would be very interested to see if his count has improved after completing a course of herbs but he won't go near a clinic right now and I'm not too keen to return either.

i was going to take clomid this month but i don't think i will as my ovaries have been throbbing all month..i think they are still recovering from the IVF meds and another round of clomid i did after. I think i will take it when i have lost my stone which will happen by 1 dec.


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## Briss

re booze, it really is so random, isn't? I was so sure beer was damaging DH's sperm but now he's been off it for so long and his SA is getting worse. either his hormonal treatment is making it worse or it really is random why SA is slightly better some months and much worse the others. 

I am really hoping this new consultant can advise me properly on my situation, but obviously there is a risk he may say I need a surgery and this is scary. In a way hearing that ovaries are resilient and they will recover makes me feel better but as soon as I left my clinic worries start getting into my head what if they are just saying that so i do not make a fuss about the damage they caused me... 

I think you need to give your ovaries a break in between your stimulation cycles. even clomid has an affect on them. That Czech clinic does mild stims with 75mg of menopur + chlomid, all low doses but poor responders somehow respond really well to this type of low stim and it does not affect egg quality so you can easily try it if you still have some menopur left. (if not I have plenty left so can post it to you as I am not going near that stuff any time soon).

I only lost 1 kg since EC :( can't believe how much weight I've put on in the last month but am really not focused on that now, am having coffee and pastries every morning and to hell with it, my fertility diet did not help counteract negative effect of stim meds and damage of EC so i am beginning to think it's really not important what I eat


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## Blythe

Briss - how very lovely to offer those drugs.....i ended up using all the gonal f i had as i was on 450iu for about 12 days in the end so it all went. I may well take you up on your kind offer.

But, i think you are right that bodies need rest and i think i will lay off anything other than my vit d spray, vit e capsules and multi vit for at least 2 months. 

Hey, losing 1 kg since EC is good...i still have my weight from the ivf cycle and that was 2 cycles ago! You enjoy those coffees and pastries. When i did become pregnant i could not have been leading a more unhealthy life...i was a real party girl and my insides must have been pickled. on top of that i was deeply depressed but it happened then and we had sex once that month and after ovulation day. It was in the morning before work and i got out of bed almost immediately. The longer i do this crap the more i think it is just pure luck. I just cling on now hoping one good egg will drop and just one of DH's drunken sperm will reach it. Still, i do wish we had the funds to do IVF as it does increase chances...although again it is just luck as i follow the girls going through it and even those marvellous looking 5 day blasts are not leading to pregnancies in much younger women and poor grade eggs are leading to pregnancies in older women. Its all such a gamble. So just have to keep going and know that eventually we will both get lucky :flower:


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## Briss

Blythe, any time just let me know. I was also on 450 but I only had 8 days of stims before my LH started to go up and they had to trigger me so have some left. I have 12x75 menopur (might be a few more left from last year's cycle), at least 3 cetrotides, some progesterone and progunova. I also have steroids for egg quality during stims which clearly did not work for me but obviously it's be great to get some medical advice if you are OK to take these. 

I so wish you had the funds to do another IVF at a better clinic. I was just talking to a friend the other day about my failed IVf, the only one I shared this with and we were comparing the UK prices vs Czech and other countries and it just seems so unfair that we in the UK can't have access to these treatments just because of the money, why can't we have the same price level as other European countries. 

My MIL is leaving today, it's bad to say this bit I am so glad, she is not a bad person just a very difficult one and this time she made it very clear that she thinks we are terrible people for not giving her grandchildren...


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## Blythe

thank you so so mud - i am very touched.

well done for surviving the MIL.....some women can be so insensitive and judgemental. I know it does not come from a bad place but my MIL just leaves me feeling so bad after spending any time with her. Maybe i am too sensitive but i just pick up things my DH fails to register at all.

i think all my squirrels died today as i cannot hear or see them anymore. i am happy because they were noisy little sods but also sad because i am a squirrel killer. Also a bit distressed about thought of decaying bodies above me.....


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## Briss

My MIL was kinda hinting that my DH should find smb else who can give him children... she probably thinks it's all my fault and was saying things like women can have children in their 50s nowadays!!! really??? do you have any idea how these things even work!! It was so hurtful listening to these things while recovering from and being in pain from being literally kicked in my ovaries but my DH completely failed to register any of that so no point complaining he would think me absurd. 

I am sorry about the squirrels, it must make you feel so uneasy but there was no other way.


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## alison29

I wanted to let you guys know you are making me laugh on this monday morning Thanks! The squirells and the drunken sperm too funny. Me and my friend at work often make fun of the stupid swimmers for missing the goals. Yep same goes for my dh only ad p-t. But I think it' s my problem anyway regardless of how many chemicals he ingests. Squirrels, my dh gets out a bb gun and shoots them while i am out of the house. They are destructive little buggers. Everyone around here calls them tree rats.


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## Wish4another1

Briss - thinking of you - hoping you are healing ok :hugs2:


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## Briss

had my "second opinion appointment" with a senior consultant and it seems like things are going in the right direction. he agreed with UCLH that not doing a lap was the right way to go about it, and there is every hope that things will heal in about 6-8 weeks. seems like this could have happened to anyone, I was just unlucky. even then, the risks are still there until the blood is fully absorbed so i should be careful and take things easy. We should not TTC this month which is disappointing. 

I went back to RMU today for a follow up and finally saw a consultant (not the usual junior doctors). apparently I was not supposed to go back to work... I need rest to ensure things do not get worse so i am back on sick leave for another week. they wanted to discharge me but I asked for another follow up appointment because I really want to make sure blood is completely gone and ovaries work normally. but so far so good, the blood is reducing, the ovaries have gone back to normal size but they still do not appear normal yet, there are cysts with blood but these should be resolved in a month or so. the pain is still there and surpassingly my right shoulder pain is also related to the incident. I feel a bit more optimistic but I guess I need to wait and see how things are going next couple of cycles.


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## kits

Hi Ladies, still following & keeping all of you in my prayers always.

Briss I hope your recovery goes as well as possible & that these 6-8 weeks can be as peaceful and smooth as possible. There must be something that connects our right shoulder to our uterus as I know right shoulder pain is a symptom of an ectopic pregnancy.

I'm glad you got your second opinion and they believe you're being given the correct treatment. That must be so reassuring during such an anxious time.

Don't let your MIL get you down, they can be notorious for envy & selfishness. The effort and passion you have for a family is more than most in laws could fathom. You're giving it your all, no need to justify to anyone. Just keep looking after yourself & by all means indulge!

Things seem to be going on schedule but I never really got taken off the high risk radar & I've been getting various tests done throughout all this time. On one of my recent results it turns out that I'm a weak positive for antiphospholipids which could explain my previous miscarriages. Still waiting for another result on the lupus coagulant. This just means that I am susceptible to blood clotting & if untreated could cause harm to baby & myself.

The upside is that they have put me on treatment, which happens to be aspirin and a daily injection until labor which should prevent all complications.

Apart from that everything seems well.

Best of luck ladies.

:hug:


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## Blythe

Briss - i am so pleased to read that you are on the road to recovery. I hope very much that you will be given the all clear to TTC next month. I hope whilst you have been at home you have not been working at home....you really need a break from work I'm sure. 

i have been very busy at work and the week has flown by. Im still in some kind of numb limbo land not sure what to do...have you any plans formulating about next steps?

I feel the colder nights and darker mornings coming along and think about another year coming to a close. I have to remind myself that people do in fact get pregnant after many years of trying....and it could just happen for me. I am feeling quite ghastly this month so i have been knocking back the cough medicine...you never know!!!!

Glad that downtown is back and hoping that Lady Edith can get her baby back....also hoping her dashing boyfriend that disappeared in Germany will make a return!


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## alison29

Hi Kits,
I had no idea you were having problems. What caused them to test you for the antiphospholiids thinger? Super glad you have your injection. I bet that hurts though.

Blythe you are right it does happen to people after many years of trying. That is a great and very positive point. I run into those people people alot in fact one this morning. A couple of years ago she said she went on pill after trying for number two for a year and nothing was happening so she thought screw it I am happy life is easy. Her dh talked her into one more round of trying so she got knocked up first month of the pill has a four month old right now. Her daughter the old one is 7, quite a nice age gap she says.


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## Briss

Blythe, I was so looking forward to downton abbey but they all moved on, all have children one way or another and i am still here 34 episodes later... I resent them all, the younger ones, can't help it :( 

my pain got worse yesterday, not sure maybe because I stopped antibiotics. DH had to go away so am on my own and feel rather scared. at times the pain just gets really bad, I can't walk properly again as every step is painful. it might be because of approaching ovulation? not sure but if it won't get better by Monday will have to call the clinic and arrange for an emergency scan. 

I still have to work from home because we are super busy :( was supposed to go to Spain on a business trip but could not fly in my state so had to send somebody else and pick up their workload. I got really lovely flowers from my colleagues though to cheer me up, nice!

Speaking of next step, I still have not approach the clinic in CR. Being in plain makes it hard to even imagine going through enough EC. the doc said I actually lost about a litre of blood judging by my blood count before and after EC - so shocking! but I know I must take that risk because there is no other choice.

I am thinking of my innocent TTC months (years) with nostalgia actually, this is such hard core with blood, severe pain, real damage to my organs that whether to take any particular vitamin seems such nonsense now. I do not take anything except for iron.

On a positive side, despite the pain my sex drive is back!


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## Blythe

Baby 'n Bump team - just in case you ever read these messages - please sort out your onsite advertising. I have had to click away from 4 large screen sized aptimil babies and I'm getting sick of it!!!! - Just in case you had not noticed TTC isn't always exciting and fun!!!!!!

Kits - sorry to read you have been experiencing some issues with your pregnancy. It sounds like you are in very safe hands and are being carefully monitored though. I hope the pregnancy continues with no further complications and you are able to relax a bit and enjoy this special time :flower:

Alison - You mentioned your friend and her DH persuading her to try another round....was that a round of IVF? People always go on about age gaps and some being less ideal than others....i am much closer with my brother who is 16 years younger than me than the other who is 2 years younger than me. All i can remember about growing up with a sibling so close in age is fighting....all of the time!!!

Briss - yes you are right re DA...i had not really noticed as they only wheel the kids out occasionally....

yes please do get the pain checked out if it gets worse.....the fact you have stopped the AB should not really effect that....i thought that was to ward off infection rather than mute any pain. 

Your increased sex drive is certainly a good sign that your hormones are doing what they are meant to be doing at this point in your cycle. Im so glad i did not take clomid this cycle as i am monitoring everything this cycle and i really notice that i have so much more ewcm when that stuff is not in my system. Its just bullshit that we have these normal cycles with all the fertile signs occurring but its just not working :( not yet anyhow.

a litre of blood is quite shocking....you have been through so much recently. Once the pain goes it will be much easier to tackle whatever is ahead.


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## Briss

that onsite advertising is a nightmare!!! I was about to give up trying to load this page after 4th attempt! cos I can't stand this advert with this annoying child and it takes up the entire page so you cannot see the content of this site and it crops up on every page, and there is no escape - this super annoying, particularly on a saturday morning!


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## Briss

I think the pain may got worse because the remaining blood is thickening, it was a sort of jello on Wednesday so it might be harder now and is pressing on my bowels causing pain?? I fond it hard to imagine how it all going to disappear but I suppose they know better, I've heard it from 3 difference consultants - all 3 said it will disappear without a trace, most likely. but in the meantime if I get temp above 38 I should rush to A&E for intro-vein antibiotics but again the risk of infection is very low now. I am checking my blood pressure, pulse and temp daily just in case. 

my CBFM is still on low which is unusual, maybe it's outrun its useful life? It's been 3 years. 

it's so funny how a lot of gyno practitioners cannot read a scan properly! I've been seen by so many in the last few weeks and only a few could really tell me what's going on with my ovaries, most cannot distinguish between a follicle, a cyst and a yellow body!! they can only see it during an IVF cycle when they watch you regularly and can see the changes. the private doc referred me for a scan but he was very particular about who I need to see as he said this guy can really tell all the differences on the scan and if it's a cyst what kind of cyst etc. amazing, I would have thought they all should be able to do that, apparently not. 

my most recent discovery is that brown blood/spotting is not necessarily old blood as we thought. also TCM seems to think period should be red and brown means uterus does not evacuate the remaining blood properly. Now, I had this painful dillapam inserted into my cervix (btw, total waste as we never got to ET stage) on CD 3 and the AF was red, not a drop of brown, it ended with red and the same thing this AF. so my conclusion is that brown is just the remaining blood that takes a while to get through the cervix because it's narrow. once they dilated my cervix a little bit it helped blood go through quicker so it stayed red. nothing to do with my uterus. the effect of dilapam wears off in a few months though. interestingly this cycle I got pink spotting! never had it in my life and always wondered what it looks like, well now I know.


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## alison29

Blythe the lady just did it natural. It does happen. She can't be that young either hard to tell though at skin clinic. I wish o could afford filler for my upper lip (;


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## alison29

Hi briss ! Isee your online. Interesting about spotting I get dark color at beginning and end of cycle. I don't really buy TTC vitaminns either. So sorry about your pain this has gone on far to long.


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## Briss

alison, I usually start and finish with brown and red in the middle but after dilapam it's all red from start to finish so i guess it's all about the cervix.

I think vitamins are good, it's just compare to the damage of EC and considerable blood loss it all seems insignificant somehow. although the doc told me that my diet is very important for recovery. unfortunately it's still daily coffee + pastry (or 2... or 3)


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## nobump

Hello ladies can I ask a question? I started acu before my last ivf cycle. We were unsuccessful but think acu helped me relax. Took a break afterwards but havw niw gone back. Came home with a bag of stuff... looked like twigs and leaves..... after boiling this I know have lots of tea to last a week... have had 2 cups so far.... not sure if I can stick this out for 2 months.... can you let me know what form your herbs came in. Xxxx


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## Briss

*nobump*, i was taking raw herbs for a while, was boiling them once a day so i had enough to take morning/evening. I boiled just enough for two cups and did not leave them for more than a day. raw herbs were supposed to be the most potent form of herbs but so time-consuming to make. I was also taking powered herbs which you just dissolve in hot water and take twice a day - so much easier. they are also supposed to be quite potent. 

I've been taking herbs for 4-5 months before this last IVF and regular acu (every two weeks) this was specifically designed to reduce my FSH levels but it did not work, my FSh went up even higher and my IVF was a disaster as you know, my ovaries did not respond well to stims so herbs did not really help with FSH/ovarian function. eggs were of poor quality but I think it was to do with stimulation process.


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## mandi21a

Hi nobump, 
I got bags of herbs that looked like sticks and other unidentifiable forest looking items. I did acupuncture 2x a week for 3 months until my bfp - my tcm doc told me in advance not to try for the first 3 months, I obliged but tried on the third & glad I did :)
The herbs are the most disgusting thing, but it's worth it!.. mine I was supposed to boil down to1 cup then reuse the herbs for afternoon dose, boiled again to 1cup. I found that drinking it with a straw was easier so the taste doesn't touch your tongue lol. 
Good luck!!


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## somedayisnow

nobump, my herbs ranged from a fine powder to a grainy/sandy concoction that ends up looking like dirty muddy water. They all taste horrible but some more-so than others. The best thing for me is to mix the herbs with as little water as possible and then chug them.


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## nobump

As I work FT they gave me all the herbs in one bag to boil all
Together keeping it in fridge and microwaving. Think if I get more will split up more. They said not to try this month. Awaiting AF next week so should be good to try next O. 

The taste I can just about handle just it's the smell. Might try a straw though.

Briss not sure if we will go down ivf route again. Just want to get body back to normal. 

Mandi21a thats fab it worked for you will try to read back more.

Xxxx


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## nobump

Sameday think I may have added to much water second boil. First I boiled the water to long... if I continue next week hopefully get easier. Agree looks like muddy water x


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## nobump

Sameday think I may have added to much water second boil. First I boiled the water to long... if I continue next week hopefully get easier. Agree looks like muddy water x


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## Blythe

no bump - do be sure to report back on any changes. I have not taken herbs since my IVF in June/July but the ones i have taken have nearly always been in powdered form. the ones you have are the most potent form. I used to pinch my nose with the fouler concoctions. How much did they charge you?

Alison - very few women get away with lip filler.....although i am sure you would be one of them. I like the idea of jolie type lips but know i would look more like pete burns [google it].

Briss - are you going back to your TCM man?

AFM - since my IVF i have been ovulating at different times. The month after was normal and then month after that 2 days later than normal [but had clomid that month] and last month and this month 3 days earlier than normal. Still i am confident i am still ovulating so i will hold onto that and I'm happy that CD10 is not too early. I still have a chance. 

On the squirrel front they have all now died but i fear most of them in the loft. Unfortunately i saw one collapse in the hole in side of roof [visible from my bedroom widow on first floor of property] he now is dead but looking like he is sleeping and the first thing i see is him in the morning when i open my curtains. He looks so peaceful although i have noticed flies congregating around him. He probably came to the entrance to worn other squirrels to keep away. Its all very watership down in my roof and i cannot help but feel sad. The landlord paid 150 to the vermin chap but he says he cannot collect the dead bodies as too far up. I live in an old victorian house not the shard! Very disappointing.


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## alison29

lol Blythe! Yeah I not even in the same universe as AJ. I have such white girl lips. My dh has great lips, and both my kids got mine! Poor things.


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## Briss

been watching panorama on stillbirth in the UK, quite shocking as most can be avoided with the use of doppler. it got me thinking that at Create they always used doppler so could see my blood flow but at RMU/UCLH they did not have that. I also wonder if CRGH used doppler at EC cos it would certainly help avoiding puncturing a blood vessel. I still can't quite understand what happened to me: was it a blood spill from a follicle or a blood vessel? you can't really get a litre of blood from a follicle, it must have been like a fountain in there :( I am also not sure if steroids I was taking played any role in what happened. should I be considering suing them?

I am not ovulating; no highs no peaks nothing, I am really concerned cos I usually ovulate on CD11 and now by cd 11 I do not even get oestrogen rise. clearly no oestrogen rise no follicles grow. what's going on with my ovaries? sex drive is my only comfort and a reminder of normality of my cycle, still there :)

the private doc said my right ovary is most likely not working properly not because of the cyst but because it's running out of eggs. I thought it happens simultaneously on both sides but apparently not. so my high FSH can be due to right ovary function and poor left ovary is normal but because it's getting so much FSh it ovulates early... so screwed up. 

*Blythe*, day 10 ovulation is obviously early for you but it's still within norm. I also noticed that my FSH is lower when I O later so you may get a bit raised FSH after IVF (hopefully not). 

surely they must collect the squirrel somehow, they can't just leave them there? 

I do not know if I am going to dr E yet. probably not until I get the blood absorbed, I am terribly concerned about any possible infection going in there with a needle, probably not likely but considering my luck I should not risk it. also the whole point was to prepare my ovaries for IVf, get FSH lower but clearly it did not work, FSH went up and ovaries did not respond well to stims. I am getting convinced that I am just not suited for TCM. although if I get problems ovulating I may have no choice but to carry on with TCM cos western medicine is unlikely to help I mean they are just going to suggest climid or something. 

I was feeling so low yesterday, it was 3 years since my father passed away and I could not be with my family cos I could not travel because of the blood. When we started IVf I though it either fails and then I can go or if it works then I won't go but then i will be doing an incredibly important thing for my farther being pregnant and all so it's justified. but what do I get? neither, something worse I am not pregnant and yet I can't go.


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## alison29

Sorry about your Dad Briss. My father passed away too 5 years ago. I am sure your father knows what is going on with you, probably even more now then when he was alive.

I agree with your conclusion that TCM was doing more harm then good for you. Maybe you can continue acupuncture but get rid of the herbs?


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## Blythe

Briss - just before EC i had to sign a form to show i understood risks...these being possible internal bleeding...puncturing bowel and other organs nearby. They said very rare but i needed to be made aware of risks. Did you sign something similar prior to EC? I think you need some more answers/explanations from this unit...it is the absolute minimum they should be doing for you. You need to be able to move forward with any further treatments knowing what happened in the last one....well at least as far as is possible.

you may end up with a similar diagnosis to my own...ie..."its just one of those things"...which does not help at all.

a later than usual ovulation is not uncommon post IVF, particularly when taking the higher doses. I notice that some ladies post clomid ovulate around one week later. Hopefully you will see a high in a day or two.

I'm sorry you could not be with your family at this time...anniversaries can often be the most painful times. I am thinking of you :flower:

I just don't know about TCM anymore. I feel the best way forward for me is to get fit again [i.e. do downward dog minus tidal wave of stomach coming towards me when looking up] and look good naked. I have said to DH that if i loose a stone in a month i will do IVF again.


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## nobump

Blythe don't think I like idea of dead squirrels in attic. Can you chase your landlord? 

Briss sending you hugs at this tough time. X

AFM. AF has appeared on time so no issues post IVF. Hubby got me straws for drinking tea faster will try later. Thanks for tip. I payed £31 for herbs. Think normal price is £49. Think bag was 5 days worth but have loads of tea made... will last the week...Also blocked booked 5 ACU sessions at £150. Was pay £40 before for an hour session. 

Day 4 of meds... also back on iron tablets so not sure which is to blame for my current side effects.


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## Briss

*alison*, it's so hard to lose people you love, years go by but it does not get any easier... i do not know why TCM did not work for me, it's so frustrating but I think the reason is probably cos I overthink everything. it works well for people who just believe without understanding and questioning. there is something about religious people that just works, it's in the brain actually - a certain part of the brain activates when we believe. I personally do not think it matters what we believe in as long as we do. so that's my next resolution to try and REALLY believe it's going to happen. I was watching this programme about Joan of Arc and apparently you can achieve so much if you just believe... 

*Blythe*, i am sure I had to sign that form as well, and I read that the risk of bleeding is something like 0.07% - stupidly low so that does give me an indication of how "lucky" i am :( it's just that there are different types of bleeding - a follicle bleeding is understandable but blood vessel bleeding is not really, they can't be making a mistake like that i think. 

Anyway you might be right about later O, I got my HIGH this morning so I am far more cheerful today. 

TMI: my sex drive is just crazy, it's usually like that only it does not last long cos I ovulate early but this time around I am actually getting tired of it, am supposed to be working from home but constantly find myself browsing porn and making short breaks every couple of hours... unbelievable! I am supposed to be convalescing :) I hope it means I am getting better. should i forget about doctors orders and just jump DH? i wonder how risky it actually is?

I do not want to get fit... I love my morning pastries :) I am absolutely sure our fitness has nothing to do with getting pregnant but of course it's nice to be slimmer. I feel I need to spoil myself so I do whatever I want and eat whatever i feel like, I just had two soft boiled eggs - "forbidden fruit" for any TTCer


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## nobump

I say jump your DH I wish I hadn't mucked about with condoms while on IVF passion killer!


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## Briss

*nobump*, I did just that :) and no pain whatsoever! although we were very careful. 

Also i got my PEAK this morning!! totally delighted must mean my ovaries are working right? obviously I can't be sure without temping if I really O but high/estrogen and peak/LH seems as good as it gets hormone wise. OPK was still negative though but the line got darker.


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## alison29

Briss you are so right about the faith. The big time jesus people as I call them have a glow of happiness they just look different some how that is even when they have a ton of children which can cause some moms to look tired and tensed. A belief that the lord will provide, just let go of control of everything. 

That's greak about your peak this morning..


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## Blythe

Briss - so glad to see you have a BD recorded on your chart. Wonderful too about the sex drive....i miss that! Your chart looks great and it certainly looks like everything is working as it should.

I am getting fit simply because i want to feel in control of at least something. My weight is not such that it would effect any treatments but i just want to look good and wear lovely outfits. I was looking with envy and the George Cloony wedding pics and want to look like his new wife as she is a real clothes horse....not to mention totally gorgeous.


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## Briss

I am watching Nymphomaniac Vol II - fun, loving it! Clearly i am not the right person to promote the efficiency of "working from home" arrangements :) I know it's going to end in a day or two so may as well enjoy it while it lasts...


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## Blythe

i thought it was a porn film...i had to google it. It looks good!!!!


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## Briss

it's not porn in my books :) there is a lot of conversation and a meaningful story behind it. in the end it was not that funny actually quite the opposite but some elements were fantastic. my main problem with this movie is the actress, she also played in Jane Eyre and she is actually my favourite Jane Eyre so it's a bit confusing to see her in this role showing off her privates while I still have this imagine of innocent Jane Eyre in my head :) 

anyway, i liked being at home and not working


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## alison29

I love being at home too. My dd was asking what I thought she should be when she grows up last night. I wanted to tell her a rich SAHM! Not a career woman who has to do it all. We settled on veterinarian. I am sure it will change. I hope she Is smarter then me and can get all A's I'm college.


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## alison29

I feel like barfaroni ate gluten last night after 5.5 months free argh hope it clears soon


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## tubby73

Hiya,
Yes. I am also having acupuncture. Had my daughter 2 years ago after several years trying, and am now trying for baby no. 2! My acupuncturist is fab! Teresa Redding who practices at Wimpole Street and SE9. Check out her website. I always feel great after treatment. 
Good luck with yours. 
Tubby. Xx


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## Juliars

I read that book, The Infertility Cure, and I think its pretty good. I also definitely believe in Acupuncture for fertility. Not because its a miracle path to conception, but because it helps blood flow, stress relief, hormone balance. All these have a larger effect on paving the way to conception.


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## nobump

Did any of you get asked to stop any meds while you are on TCM? I take tranexamic acid to help stem heavy menstrual bleeding. Acu guys says meds are helping from inside out and I shouldn't be taking other meds...


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## Briss

nobump, I showed my list of supps to Dr E so he could check it out and say whether any of theee may interfere with his herbs


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## Blythe

Briss. How are you? :flower:


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## Briss

*Blythe*, thank you! I am doing OK, not 100% back to normal yet, still getting dodgy pains and seating down/standing up is quite painful. Have been terribly busy at work, a colleague who was taking on my workload while I was ill had a nervous breakdown and gave her notice on Monday&#8230; I am very sad for her but also wonder how do I manage the same workload, and maybe I do not manage it at all I just cant see it? I was signing a deal on Friday, the deal I inherited from another colleague who went on maternity and ironically while I was working from home trying to get her deal done, with my ovaries kicked (quite literally), she gave birth to a healthy baby boy &#8211; how nice for her :( 

I contacted Reprofit and was told there is no waiting list so we can start any time. I am hoping to do one cycle before the end of the year but obviously it depends on the condition of my ovaries &#8211; my poor things! Unfortunately they do not do IMSi which is a problem for us. 

My Dh had a bit of a breakdown and went back to drinking beer for a couple of week, so we had to have another talk about donor sperm because I am just reaching the end of my patience threshold with all this. I feel so fragile that I prefer not to write about it or to even think about it and just carry on, I feel I will break if I start concentrating on my entire TTC journey, so I narrowed my mind on only one step forward and ignore everything else that happened or may/will happen. Dh was strongly against donor sperm but he did stop the beer nonsense. 

I am due for a scan with UCLH and then one more scan at the private clinic so once this is done I will hopefully have more information on what happened and what I need to do to move forward. 

My weight is still outrages, most of what I put on while stimming is still there and I am much heavier and flabbier than ever in my entire life&#8230; still it's coffee and pastry for breakfast for the time being. I am back on my vitamins. Cant decide when to visit Dr E. Probably after I had my follow up scan. I just do not feel getting acu at the moment will do me any good. 

two of my friends got pregnant, one from her first IVF (twins) and another from her second IVF, both older than me but their ovaries responded so much better to stims they had 8-15 eggs each time. makes me feel depressed but one more argument that woman's age does not matter it's the ovaries' age that's important. 

How are you? How's weight-loss going? I've been thinking about your IVf and it's still puzzling that none of the eggs fertilised, I am quite sure that it's not egg quality issue because you would still get a few fertilised but the embryo quality might have been not so great: none just means they must have been somehow compromised during the stim process. You responded so well to max stim that you may still get 6-7 eggs with low stims but the quality will be better &#8211; just something to think about.


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## alison29

Hi Briss,
Maybe dh is just being rebelious for a little while until you firm up plans for hte next treatment. It gets old feeling guilty about everything you enjoy, I know though that the consequences for bad choices linger on and on. I have been drinking more green tea and less coffee. My friend who is in middle of iui cycle has given up coffee and all sweetners this cycle. They are the ones paying out the as- for donor sperm. I guess even stevia is bad for fertility :( I though i was doing okay with that. I wonder if splenda is better? I can't face life without sweetner you know? Especially that retched green tea, peach flavor is a little better than plain.
UGh sounds just crazy about your work load. I don't think you have any idea how valuble you are there. Sounds good about trying to stay away from ttc boards and stuff. I will miss your frequent posts but it may make you obsess less which is always good!


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## Blythe

Alison - i used to use sweeteners many years ago. They are very very bad for you and i would much rather have sugar in their place. I have a very sweet tooth and would love to ditch the sugar but i cannot so i just try and cut it down a bit.

Briss - surely your work friend could have just taken some time off sick....she would have got paid too i would imagine. I have never had a breakdown but i have had bouts of depression...it is horrible when it gets too much. Our minds and bodies can do so much...i have done jobs where i was working 13 hours days 7 days a week for months on end and i actually enjoyed the adrenalin and the camaraderie working amongst others doing the same. It is only when i stopped that i actually became fairly ill...i had a weird beard of spots [attractive!] and my immune system was just shot. I simply could not do that now and i am in awe of you doing those long hours you do. Isn't part and parcel of your profession though? Would it be possible to change your working pattern or reduce your hours? i guess it would but to the detriment of your position at work.


with reference to our eggs...i believe that the drug protocol used in my IVF absolutely compromised the quality. I remember very very clearly that my body started feeling moldy and that i had ovulated around CD13/14 when i was still injecting 450iu gonal f for a further 3 days. I did lose the larger eggs and i believe my body was going into luteul phase mode and so that just worked against the eggs left. Some women respond very well to high dosages and i think i would have done ok if they had retrieved eggs a few days before they did in my case. I really do believe Briss that your eggs are perfectly fine and most certainly capable of giving you your much longed for child/children. You have just had the most terrible run of bad luck. 

I have been talking about donor sperm too as DH has been binge drinking and thinks nothing of downing a bottle of wine when he gets home. It would be ok if he did it occasionally but......

i think about IVF every day most of the day. We have agreed to go ahead with another round if i have lost weight [a stone!] by december. I would be looking to do this at Create with a mild stim round. As ever, all subject to change. My weight is not really falling but my fitness has been improving and i have much more definition in my arms. I feel stronger and that feels good. I just really need to buckle down and eat less than i do which is so difficult for me.

Its a sod that Reprofit do not have imsi. Have you an idea of how long you need to be over there during a natural cycle of IVF?


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## alison29

Blythe you can do it! Keep your eye on the prize. I know easier said then done. The more i excercise the more i eat so i feel like it evens out unless I consciously fast for a meal a day (or just eat plain veggies or something) .So how many pounds is a stone? All three of our dhs drink too much, wow what are the chances? I 'll have to try using real sugar and see what it does to me. 
I believe your eggs are fine too ladies..So you both have soemthing to look forward to soon :)


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## Blythe

14lbs so a fair few!! :) I quite like you idea of fasting a meal rather than the whole day. I have read about the 5:2 diet but I cannot go a whole day on do few calories.


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## Vonn

Hi everyone! I'm pretty new here, mainly reading/stalking. I have been doing acupuncture and herbs for two and a half cycles and have a couple questions. :shrug:

Two months ago I had acu done on 9DPO, needles in belly among other places. Later that night I spotted, and continued spotting til AF. Last month, I had acu done on 10DPO and expressed concern about acu causing bleeding. She didn't do needles in belly & added one in big toe supposed to stop bleeding. I again started spotting that night. Pre AF spotting is not unusual for me, just hoping acu would improve it, not have it continue, or worse, cause it. The timing could be coincidence, it just seems weird. Anyone else have this happen?

Also, there is spot near my left thumb that has started to hurt a lot--a sharp nerve or tendon pain when my thumb bends a certain way. It's right near a spot that is needled every week and got bruised two weeks ago. Again, has anyone experienced this?

Thanks for any feedback & sorry for long post! 
:dust:


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## Briss

*Vonn*, welcome! I am not the best person to talk about TCM but from my experience Pre AF spotting is annoying and acu does not always help. I had it for about 3 months, two of which I was on acu/herbs but I think taking a very strong vitamin B complex is what helped in the end. obvious checking your progesterone level of day 7-8 after ovulation is a good idea to rule out low progesterone levels. There could be so many things that's causing it. There is a really good discussion on this on FF which i joined - https://www.fertilityfriends.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=319642.0 together we tried various things to figure it out but the more we tried the more confusing it got. i never got to the bottom of why it happened but it disappeared after 3 months as unexpectedly as it started. 

I also had my nerves and blood vessels punctured during acu it coursed pain and bruising and it did not last longer than a few days. if it worries you I'd definitely raise it with your doc. 

*alison*, I gave up coffee during my IVf and we know how well that worked out :( I really struggle to motivate myself cos none of the things I have done/sacrificed made any difference whatsoever. Just to be on the safe side if we move on to our next IVf I will stop coffee but at the moment i think my last IVf's damage far outweighs any possible damage that I get from drinking coffee. I usually have fruit sugar, I do to trust artificial sweeteners I think they have some nasties in them so if you are going to eat sugar for for something simple like chocolate or fruit sugar. I seriously need to cut down on sugar it's just so damaging to eggies. 

I am so surprised you do not like the taste of green tea :) I love it! the only flavour I can take is jasmine. have you tried mate tea? I got so used to mate tea that even my favourite green tea does not taste as good anymore.

I think I am beginning to resent TTC boards even LTTTC because 99% of women I have seen on those boards even the ones who struggled a lot they all got their happy endings and my situation just gets worse. it's a bit hard to find your self in that 1% of super unlucky people e.g. I have not found anyone I know who had intra-abdominal bleeding even after 4-5 IVFs. am obviously feeling sorry for myself which is probably not helpful. 

btw that clinic in CR told me that they get serious intra-abdominal bleeding after EC every 400-500 procedures so they were not terribly surprised about my condition and just wanted to be sure the blood completely absorbed and that I feel totally normal before we do IVF. I can't really feel normal tbh. It's like my lower abdomen is so fragile that I always need to be careful when I walk or seat down or do anything, running is just unthinkable at the moment. 

*Blythe*, totally agree re sugar. My college is off sick for a few weeks but she gave her notice just before that. she basically said she could not take this anymore - not having life, being tied to this job, being unable to plan anything or spend evenings with her husband. I totally understand all that and feel like blackberry is a sort of chain replacement but still a form of slavery, my way out of this was to sacrifice the quality of my work. it saves me 4-5 hours a day if I do not perfect my drafting. I know in the last few years partners must have noticed that i am not a very good lawyer but that's what i paid in order to have the time to TTC (professionally) and not to stress out as much as I used to. I wouldn't be able to be working 13 hours a day 7 days a week now :) I do leave before 7 pm most days unless there is a crisis but even then I do not care so i do not feel stressed most of the time. 

re your IVF, that's outrages that they made you carry on with injections after natural ovulation, they so screwed up your cycle and hormones, it's just shocking how they ignore body's natural processes thinking that they now control the cycle while they really do not control anything. 

I am so excited that you decided to go ahead with another round of IVF!! I totally support that decision. I would not necessarily tie it to your weight loss though because losing weight just before IVF may not necessarily give you any advantage (I mean you are not really overweight or anything). Are you going to do intensive acu/herbs as you did before previous IVF? I think it worked really well that time. 

You know what I thought about Create but I started going slightly easier on them after my UCLH misery. Still I really am not sure Create is right for you because you respond perfectly well to normal stim IVF. Create are really great and supportive and positive when it comes to natural cycles but I am just not sure about mild stims. would you not consider going abroad? we still paid about 5,500 for mild stim cycle at Create while it will cost around 2,000 euro in retrofit. 

Speaking of Reprofit, they are very efficient and very responsive. i had some correspondence with the co-ordinator but because i had lots of medical questions they connected me to one of the doctors who responds to my questions which very positive. My only negative observation so far is they immediately blamed my eggiest for the failed fertilisation and suggested natural IVf is not going to improve our odds as quality is just not there. I resent that. also they do not recognise the benefits of endometacin which I personally worship. they offered PICSI as they do not do IMSI. it's not great as this procedure seems to help pick mature sperm while IMSi helps with morphology issue but I suppose it's better than just ICSI.


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## Blythe

i think the only way we can move forward with IVF if it is not going to cost more than 5k...i guess that is why i looked at Create. I could get it for about 4.5k at kings with ICSI but they just don't take any bloods or monitor enough for my liking. 

Briss - Do you know of anywhere in London that is reasonable?

i do understand your comments about being on boards. I just cannot keep saying the same things also something died in me after that stupid IVF and i struggle to imagine it happening when i really did believe it before. I know it can happen as it does with others. I would go abroad but I'm not sure we can manage it logistically....on a full stim cycle we would need to be there for at least a couple of weeks i would imagine and once accommodation/flights/time of work for DH paid for we would not really see to much financial benefit. If we were doing natural cycles then i think it would be far more viable.

Im not sure how i feel about acu and herbs anymore.....


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## Briss

*Blythe*, that's the breakdown on what we paid for mild stims at Create:

Gonal F: 300+100+150= 550
Ovitrell: 30
Cetrotide 70 +70=140
bloods: 75 + 75 +75 +75=300

IVF 2,990
ICSI 980
Sedation: 230
HFEA fee 75
Embryoscope 600 (refunded as not used)

Total: £5,895

as you can see scans are included but not bloods and meds, they use Gonal F for mild sims but if you can ask them to use menopur instead you can save a bit if you take mine (I feel the Czech clinic wants to suggest that we do some kind of stims but I really do not want to put my ovaries through that so most likely we will stick to natural and I won't need it). it also does not include the meds after ET cos we did not get there. 

My understanding of the Reprofit prices:

Mild stim IVF 1950 Euro (including consultation, treatment plan, sperm analysis, oocyte (egg) retrieval, general anesthesia, ICSI, extended cultivation of embryos till the blastocyst stage (5 days), assisted hatching and the embryo transfer. 
IVF (natural) 850 euro + ICSI of each oocyte 50 euro.
STD´s 100 Euro/person.
The price of medication depends on prescribed dosage between 1000 and 1500 Euro.
donor sperm 200 Euro.
PICSI 150 euro
They accept your previous blood results so no need to repeat them.
+ Flights/hotels. You should have travel insurance when you travel abroad, but no travel insurance cover expenses due to health complications during IVF cycle.

If I were you I'd rather go to Lister than Create. BUT I think they are a bit more expensive but not 100% sure. worth going there was an open day actually. I am by no means against Create it's just that you are a good responder so you can take slightly higher stim doses (to have a few frozen embryos) and I do not think Create does that so you may not get as many embryos as you can. 

See below an abstract from Reprofit's email just to give you an idea how they do it logistically (you do not need to be there for 2 weeks and your DH can only come for 1 day for EC): 

"_You are more than welcome to come to Brno personally for the first consultation or we can set everything up via email. You can consult everything with your own doctors in your country as they can be of great help. If you are interested to come and be treated at our clinic, I will ask you to fill up the "first virtual visit" on our web site: https://www.reprofit.cz/fvv/en. 

We need results of blood tests (hormonal profile), taken within first three days of your menstrual cycle: FSH = follicle-stimulating hormone, LH = luteinizing hormone, E2 = estradiol, TSH = thyroid-stimulating hormone, PRL = prolactin, AMH = anti-mullerian hormone and also results of the recent spermiogram.

On that basis the doctor suggest you the best method of the treatment and will create your personal stimulation protocol. You can start the stimulation in your country and come for egg retrieval and embryo transfer (if you have the doctor locally who can help you with ultrasound scans- depend on this will be the length of your staying here)._"

I can do the bloods in that place in Bond street but not sure about the scans actually. Something for me to research. but as a last resort there are many places where you can just do a scan privately. 

re boards, that's exactly it, by repeating the same thing over and over again I just feel like I am stuck in the TTC zone. Most importantly I do not get as much useful info as I used to because by now I have absorbed so much knowledge about the bloody thing... it also takes a lot of time but does not bring me any comfort anymore cos I compare myself to others and just can't help but feel very unlucky. btw, did you know according to maya we were supposed to enter the Golden Age in 2012? meaning that things are supposed to be getting better. I do not feel it yet

I hear you on acu/herbs but if it was not this expensive I'd totally advise that you stick with what you did before your previous IVF simply because your response was great and it's not your fault that King's did not manage your cycle well.


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## Blythe

Briss - thank you so much for the detail. It really angers me that they just add the bloods as extras as if you haven't already paid enough!! Does that figure for Create include your initial scans and consolation?

i will look at the lister - thank you for the recommendation. I will certainly not rule out reprofit and will need to look at flight/taxi/hotel/food costs and work out how i could go through majority of stims in UK and how much that would cost.


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## Briss

The initial scan and consultation at Create was something like 200 and was supposed to be deducted from the IVF cost but tbh I forgot to mention this as there was 2-3 months between the scan and the treatment so I am not sure if it was deducted in the end.

Lister was on my list as well but I just think Reprofit is more affordable if we are going natural IVF route: 850 euros vs £4-6K...


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## Briss

One thing to know about Reprofit is that apparently Reprofit doesn't freeze embryos unless they are AAA gold standard. Also Reprofit's prices are going up at the end of the year.

Ryan Air flies to Brno for 50-250 return, it can super cheap + 24 train/bus to stanstead. some people prefer staying in Prague and taking a bus to Brno.


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## Vonn

Thanks, Briss! 

You seem to have a particularly awful TTC experience. Have you (or anyone here) ever read the book "Making Babies: A Proven 3-Month Program for Maximum Fertility"? It's written by Dr. Sami David (fertility specialist) and Jill Blakeway (LAc). Supposed to bring together the best of both worlds.

It recommends blood and cervical mucus testing for many issues that the previous FS I went never ordered. In fact, that doctor went almost straight to clomid without hardly exploring potential problems. I am about to begin with a new FS, and will be demanding all the tests explained in the book!

If anyone's had a non-thorough FS like my first one, some of these tests might explain the on-going issues, despite the very advanced treatment protocols being used. If everything is "normal," some of the tests they recommend (or other hints/suggestions they provide) might uncover an issue other FS/LAc hadn't bother to check. It's giving me hope, at least! And hope is one of the most important things to have on this journey!! :wacko:


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## Briss

*Vonn*, i think most of us read that book, it's good and definitely very informative (although "the infertility cure" is probably the best book out there) but it does not replace going to an actual practitioner. for example, I was not able to identify yin deficiency based on their questionnaire but every TCM doc I've been to says I have it. I do not know how long have you been TTC but definitely worth while starting charting, temping, using CBFM/OPK or check your CM etc so you know when you ovulate, how long is your LP and whether you have CM issue, get on with your diet/vitamins/supps/herbs etc obviously check all your bloods (day 3: FSH, LH, E2, AMH; 21 DPO progesterone), ask for a test to check your tubes, do scans to check how many follicles you produce, any cysts etc. but tbh considering our age group I perfectly understand why your doc rushed straight to climid, I do not want to be negative but I would not waste much time either. if you do all of the above and not pregnant in 6 month I'd consider IVF.


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## Vonn

I have heard of the "Infertility Cure," but haven't picked it up. I should do that. 

I have been through the basic work-up, but no HSG to check for blockage. I am on progesterone 2nd half of cycle and am temping, using fertility monitor, and examining CM. My luteal phase is now 12 days long--great considering it used to be between 8-11. (Thyroid issue that's still not fully resolved.)

Taking all kinds of stuff (B complex, pineapple core for 5 days after ov, a bunch of supps like zinc, coq10, etc.), and added acupuncture and herbs a couple months ago. Next thing is back to the fertility specialists. Very open to IUI, but nervous as heck about how we'd pay for IVF. 

My primary care dr. is first running heavy metal testing on me cuz she just can't figure out what the root cause of my health issues is.

Definitely feeling the clock ticking. It would be great for someone to get a BFP & give everyone else a boost!


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## Briss

*Vonn*, did they manage to figure out why you are not naturally producing enough progesterone? if you are supplementing with synthetic progesterone every month then I am not surprised that your LP is improving but I wonder if it goes back to what it was before once you stop synthetic progesterone? Have they done cycle monitoring to be sure you are in fact ovulating every month? I read that if progesterone is low but you are ovulating it may indicate poor egg quality basically the yellow body that released the egg is somehow defective because of the quality of the egg that went out and so it's not producing the right amount of progesterone. Just a theory though. 

What's heavy metal testing for? can it explain your low progesterone? What does your practitioner give you for yang deficiency (I am just guessing with low progesterone they probably diagnosed you with yang deficiency?)

How's your temp? is there a clear temp shift after O? the TCM practitioners like to see a noticeable difference in temp before and after O. 

have you checked your DH? if sperm is good than IUI maybe all you need. I totally understand about IVf but looking back on my 4 years TTC not starting IVF sooner is my main regret. 

If you read back on this thread you will see that most ladies did get their BFPs in the end, some naturally but most with IVF (on first go), there are a few of us left here still fighting for our BFPs. I really hope your stay will be a short one and you will move quickly to pregnancy boards.


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## Vonn

Thanks for the feedback and suggestions, Briss! I know you are feeling like you giving more than you are getting on the ttc boards. Are you for sure going the Czech Rep route & would you go before year's end?

Hypothyroidism (low thyroid) can cause low progesterone as can high levels of the stress hormone cortisol--both of which I have issues with. 

My temp does increase after ovulation, but it is a slow rise, taking a couple days to jump. My acu practitioner has me on a bunch of weird tasting herbs 2x day, could name them off-hand. I don't recall her telling me yang deficiency, but I remember hearing "weak qi." Last week she did say my tongue and pulses are improving, so that's something!

I believe my hypothyroidism just isn't optimally treated yet & once it is the progesterone issue (and all the symptoms) will resolve. My dr thinks something else (like toxic heavy metal levels) is interfering with everything--making all the hormones out of whack, the gut wonky, etc. I'm open to whatever she wants to try, but deep down sort of think it's the thyroid & am a little bothered she really thinks it's something else.

I will look into/ask the new FS about the progesterone & egg quality issue. I hadn't come across that, so good to know! Depressing as hell, but good to know. Also, good advice on not putting IVF off.

And DH tests came back normal...so it's me. Used to be perfectly healthy but no man; now I've got the man and the health goes to pot. Ah, life!


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## Briss

*Vonn*, I am sorry if I sound so negative, i usually am though unfortunately. really struggling to see things positively but I am trying... I found B&B really informative the first couple of years, there was so much to learn about TTC but it's just none of this brought us any closer to BFP. 

I hear you on Hypothyroidism, my mum has it and I've always been aware of it and periodically check my bloods for any signs but so far it's been very mild my TSH is below 4, sometimes even as good as around 2, and T3/T4 are in mid range. it's possible that when I had my pre AF spotting my TSH was higher than usual so maybe in part responsible (although I did check my progesterone when i had spotting but it was high). Are you on synthetic thyroid hormone? I read a book on Hypothyroidism and talked to an endocrinologist and it does look like no one wants to bother with this, they wait until your TSH levels are high enough and then put you on hormone. I am clearly at a risk of developing it in the future but there is absolutely nothing they can do (so they say) about it, i will either develop it in the future or I won't. I am sure there is something i could do. I think stress is probably the main factor as thyroid is very sensitive to stress. Did you check your cortisol levels?

I have an issue with sugar, I consume far too much of this stuff so it may also have something to do with my eggs or thyroid. 

btw, your chart looks healthy. temp is not too low for hypothyroidism. When I had pre AF spotting my temp suddenly got a bit lower than usual before and after O. Why would you have higher toxic heavy metal levels? Did you live or work or was otherwise exposed to this? Have you checked your egg reserve (FSH, AMH, AFC)? is it still good? the age might be depressing but reserve is far more important, some ladies here have very good egg reserves after 40 so have still good chances of getting pregnant.

I am very seriously thinking about that clinic in Czech Republic. I would much rather do IVf here in London but with natural IVF it may take many months before we are successful and the prices are just ridiculously high here, we can't afford paying 4-6K every month. 

I am writing an awful lot for smb who wants to spend less time on TTC forums :)


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## Vonn

Well, a safe and relatively anonymous place to vent is a huge reason these boards exist! Getting it out is impt.

I think my dr is sort of grasping at straws with the heavy metal testing. I did test for high morning cortisol. And my FSH was tested a year ago and was okay, not overly worrisome. I will have those tests done at my new place--much better educated now!

Thanks again for the suggestions, Briss. I hope you never have to deal with thyroid issues, it's a total bummer. And I hope your mom is treated optimally and doesn't suffer with any symptoms. All the endocrinologists I have dealt with suck. I go to an integrative dr. Vent over. :wacko:


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## Blythe

Briss - your chart looks nice and healthy...How are you?


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## Briss

*Blythe*, thanks I am OK just super busy at work. Just got home and looks like will be working weekend :( 

Your previous chart looks strange, I do not think you ovulated on day 9, most likely day 11/12. I can see you started clomid? 

I finally had my follow up scan and they could not see any blood :) I am so hoping this is good news but just in case I booked a private scan for next week cos the lady who did the scan could not distinguish between yellow body and a cyst. She thought I ovulated from both ovaries while I know for a fact I have a cyst on my right side, it's not yellow body. But at least the good news I ovulated so ovaries must be working. Also the Czech clinic wants a report that blood issue is resolved before they can start my cycle and the NHS unit just does not do it. I want to wait one more cycle and then I can start mid November. a bit scared if I am honest but we really need to step up our efforts. 

I will probably start temping now, before did not make any sense cos my temp was constantly raised because of the blood.


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## Blythe

Im so pleased there was no blood visible on scan. I hope you get this double confirmed with your other scan...it will certainly be good to get a second opinion.

i will be following any treatment you do in CR very closely so when you get time please do post details. 

i have had a pack of clomid in my cupboard for ages and it keeps calling....i think the super EARLY ovulation [combined with the days of spotting pre AF] swung it for me as clomid makes me ovulate later. i am doubling the dose to 100mg and its not monitored so quite stupid really but that is where i am at nowadays.....i hardly slept at all last night and had bright red cheeks. I also had the most explosive row with DH about drinking/TTC etc etc etc might be the clomid....might just be me losing it!

i am going to Fiona [qiyoga] fertility retreat tomorrow in harley st. it is on for four hours. i have been in such a dark hole obsessing about IVf that i just need to spend some time with her because she always feels so positive about it and makes me think it is possible. i hope to walk away with a clear plan about how i get my body back into balance without using acu and herbs. she has a reflexologist going to do treatments so i think a 10 min daily routine combing yoga poses, self administered acupressure and reflexology might help balance hormones....well that would be a nice outcome.

i will combine that with better diet. i have brought a nutribullet and the juicer and old smoothie maker are history. As they required lots of washing up afterwards i found it quite tiresome using them. i made a nice smoothie using chia seeds, almond milk, almond butter, coconut oil and frozen berries and it was delicious. 

I hope you do get a break this weekend from work.:flower:


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## Briss

*Blythe*, I am totally with you re DH drinking. I can hold it together most days but when i see he's been drinking it just tips me off and I go nuts, feels like I've lost everything and even hope. the clinic in CR does not do IMSI, they only offer PICSI so having good morphology is crucial and drinking just does not help. 

I joined retrofit FF thread and already know what hotel I should stay at etc. ladies are very helpful. one thing I still can't figure out is where to do my scans in London. that private scanning place is just too expensive at 200-300 per scan it just defeats the whole purpose of going to CR to save costs. 

I also do not sleep well lately, probably stress at work gets to me. 

I think this is a very good idea to go to Fiona fertility retreat, it helped you a lot last time. please share your experience. I could not do anything physically while having this blood issue and may have to carry on with no physical activity for a while. sometimes I feel really upset when I see myself in the mirror, I've never ever been this fat, I look so different. DH does not like it but after losing so much blood I really should not diet, my blood test is still not back to normal. I get some comfort from the fact that i lost weight twice in the past and I know how to do it now (it's not healthy but it works) so if I am desperate I can always lose weight in 2-3 months.

How does nutribullet work? how is it different from a blender? I love juices but agree it's so tiresome to do all the washing and cleaning for a small glass of juice.


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## nobump

Briss good news about your scan. Hope you manage to find a reasonable place for scans during your cycle. 

Blythe sorry your feeling down. Hope your course helps.

Starting to enjoy acupuncture again today's session was good. Got tablets to take this week as we are travelling so boiling herbs not an option. Its dh 50th this week so letting our hair down. Heading to London for a few nights. Nice food and a few glasses of wine is on the agenda. 

Was floored last week a friend anounced her pregnancy shes a month older than me... and was single at mt wedding. .. happy for her but made me feel like a failure with my crap eggs and hubbys sliw swimmers. ... thinking of giving up for good cant keep hurting all the time.


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## Briss

*nobump,* sorry you were feeling down, CD 1 for me so even though i had no expectations I still feel like it's the end of the world. one friend is pregnant with twins after 1 IVF, another after 2nd IVF, both older than me and both produced 8-15 eggs. what's wrong with me??? why can't I?? anyway, must stop feeling sorry for myself and get on with it

have a great time in London!


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## Vonn

Blythe--I am really curious about your new plan of yoga, acupressure, and reflexology. I've heard great things about all of them. Why don't you want to do acupuncture & herbs anymore? The retreat sounds great, I'm not familiar with it.

No Bump--Enjoy the birthday celebration!! I hope it takes your mind off TTC frustration. It can be so overwhelming. I turned 40 1 week ago and treated myself non stop for a whole week. That made it festive!

Brisk--Once you are in the TTC mode, CD1 just plain sucks. So depressing. It takes me a few days to get hopeful that the next cycle is the one. I'm glad you're connecting with others about the CR clinic & good luck on your search for a scanning place.

Hi to everyone else!

The only way I keep my sanity is by feeling like I am doing everything I can. Constantly adding/trying new things. Legs up the wall yoga pose...check. Rasp leaf tea...check. B complex vitamin...check. Etc., etc, etc. It's exhausting!


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## Blythe

No Bump - i don't know how to give up....i wish i could too because it consumes almost every hour of every day...it is always there. 

glad the acupuncture is going well for you.....and i do hope you and your DH have lots of fun this week and enjoy the booze :)

Vonn - i don't want to do acu and herbs anymore because i did it for a long time and gained nothing from it....neither mentally nor physically. Yes, the acu appt was nice...well the 5 mins head massage at the end was the nicest bit but i cannot justify the expense with so little in return. i feel if i focus and change some of my own destructive thought patterns i can do quite a lot of things for myself.

Briss - i went to my retreat earlier today. it was me and another younger lady who has issues with PCOS and Fiona Kaczmarczyk [Awakening Fertility] and Katharine [mamabe] 

link to retreat details and fiona's website: 
qiyoga - here is the link: https://www.imsublime.co.uk/natural-fertility-yoga-retreat-ivf-support-retreat

Katharine website:
www.mamabe.co.uk

i sort of walked in there thinking i had a handle on most stuff but i walked away with a real focus and i really feel committed to changing a lot of my habits around eating and moving and also i will do my very best to start, if not meditating, then just sitting there with no distractions for 5 mins every day.

we started off with some yoga which i found so difficult...i really have let myself go. Also when i do it in my living room i never really contort myself properly into the right positions...i stop when i start having to exert too much effort!!

had a healing session...bit like reiki and then Fiona when through stomach fertility massages and i found that super helpful and will continue myself at home.

then had a reflexology session which was lovely, It was very interesting talking to both fiona and katharine about my own anger around this stuff, in particular with the IVF, and how i can change that. They are just very clear that i can achieve pregnancy without IVF or any other treatments with their support and they have had a tonne of success with their clients. Katharine had dealt with chaps with v.low sc and treated them until very high count.

Briss - do you think your DH would consider reflexology?

some stuff i recall:
don't buy vitabiotics stuff...wellman, pregnacare etc...all just crap. solgar good and other whole food/pure source products

talked a lot about food and food sources....so i am going to really revamp my diet and ditch the caffeine and crap.


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## Briss

Do you recall what they said about caffeine? I mean I know it's bad but why exactly in their view? I need something for motivation. 

why is vitabiotics stuff bad? 

If I am honest I do not believe they or anyone else can help with SC. I've heard it before from TCM practitioners but their herbs did not really make any difference. Even hormonal treatment did not help. I may get my Dh to see dr Ramsey again but he was very clear if that did not help nothing will :( maybe it's CD 2 speaking, just feel so depressed right now.


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## Blythe

Briss - I know it's bollocks. I'm so sorry AF came this month.....I was checking as I always hope to see you get a bfp naturally so you don't have to do IVF again. 

I cannot recall the details re the vits but it was something to do with the lab and the standards being food grade rather than medicine grade/quality. I will have to follow this up with email and find our the exact detail. 

They view caffeine as a toxin and when I said I drank it in the morning they shook heads. I don't know why. I remember reading somewhere before they it effects adrenal gland and has an effect on blood sugar levels.


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## Blythe

DH


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## nobump

Briss, sorry about AF making an appearance... it is hard to hear of others success, I have a friend who has just had an IVF baby... 

Blythe, it is so frustrating when it seems all that we do is wasted when DH goes off and does things that don't help! The just don't seem to understand..

Vonn, birthday celebrations were good, but as my brothers girlfriend is having a c-section on Wednesday so there was bit of baby chat...


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## Briss

Blythe, really sorry about your DH, that's just stupid of him. I lose myself completely when i see DH was drinking even a little but then I think that he was not drinking for a long time and there was no improvement to his sperm anyway. it's all so random! by all means make a point that he should not drink, just try not to stress yourself about it too much. I know easy said than done... I so wish TTC was easier or at least shorter...


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## alison29

Blythe sorry to hear about the fight with Dh. I have learned to stay away from dh if he is drinking more than a couple he may not even remember that he was a jerk the next day. Most people when drunk are unbearable. Not to say that one or two does that at all we are talking LOTs of liquor. 

As for caffeine I heard that is true about blood sugar and adrenal fatigue that your body is all always in flight or fight mode. Right now I am trying ot go free too. I am tired of being a slave to the drug and wondering if just maybe that is the key to fertilty. I think it also steals your energy in that if you are free you will have consistent energy through out the day instead of wanting to die around 3 o clock. I am tired of waking up groggy in caffeine withdrawal kind of "don't talk to me until I have had my fix" kind of thing. It's hard today. I went from a lot down to half a tea bag today (weaning down all last week). I was so spacey though at work I had a quarter cup of green tea to see if that helped at all. It would love to get this monkey off my back! I read you will eventually sleep better and be less irritable without caffeine. All things i could use help with.


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## alison29

oh plus the headaches are because MORE blood is circulating and flowing to your brain. So while suffering headache i think about the blood flow going to my reproductive parts too! The caffeine constricts the blood flow which can't be good every single day of my life for years and years.


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## Briss

warning: am feeling rather low and depressed today so I might be even more negative than usual. probably because I feel I am finally recovering from my IVF complications so can afford to think through what happened and finally grieve but all I feel is anger and terrible sadness 

*Blythe*, did you go to the Urban Day Retreat Fertility Workshop for £199.00? seems reasonable. I'd go for the next one but I will probably be ovulating end of Nov so if all goes will I will be in Brno. Did you ask about their IVF Support Strategies? share any useful tips you leant there.

I was also checking Mama Be's website and was less impressed. their Retreat is £2,725 for 3 days. That's super expensive? Did you have your free personal hour of fertility coaching with her first? I read through her website but certain things she says are not supported by my experience like "Women deserve alternatives to the typical medical options of &#8230; IVF" &#8211; been there done that and well no, our first IVF was probably the closest we ever got to actually getting pregnant, naturally nothing is happening regardless of what we eat etc. If her retreats were free or cheap I'd definitely go because there is no harm in what's she is proposing but financially it's best to invest in IVF. and the prices are comparable to IVF. I just had lunch with a very overweight colleague who got pregnant with IVF with her even more overweight husband. That makes me feel ridiculous with all my greens and fresh wheatgrass juices and TCM etc etc (not that I do any of this now but still). I looked at the outline of her Fertility Coaching and I think we get most of these from B&B anyway? I mean we are experts on fertility issues like egg quality, aren't we? Did she offer you any more information on this than you already knew form your own research? 

Having said that I also believe you can get pregnant naturally, you have done that before and you can do it again. I am very sure it will happen at some point. I am also confident you can get pregnant quicker with IVf if they look after you properly

I agree that vitabiotics products are cheap etc so maybe quality is not great but they give you the minimum vitamin intake you need daily. is this not correct? besides none of us is just taking pregnacare on its own, right? we have tonnes of other stuff to cover our unique deficiencies. Also, is it right that solgar are whole food products? I mean they are top quality vitamins and I tend to buy more and more solgar products but they are still synthetic I think. higher nature does food based vits (smell is horrible btw). Also a friend who is pregnant with twins after first IVf was only taking pregnacre and her husband improved his SC massively (they did not need ICSI in the end) after taking wellmen and nothing else, he also smokes occasionally and over 45. isn't it just ironic? 

re reflexology, I personally do not believe it does anything for fertility. It's just for relaxation and the cheaper you can get it the better. 

re meditation is fantastic but here is another ironic fact. My Dh was trying to find substitute to his social life and drinking beer with colleagues so he started meditating. I mean he is very serious about this stuff and have been for many months now, he read about 30 books on this and meditates all the time + no beer + vitamins + hormonal treatment and what do we have? his sperm got worse&#8230; both quality and quantity. WTF, I am asking?

yoga is tough, no question. I am completely the same when i do it in my living room i am not sure I do it properly and take the right positions cos I really cant tell and my Dh sometimes says what I do looks nothing like what the lady on the screen is doing&#8230; I still think it probably takes time and we need to do it more and more and with time it will get easier the problem is I do not stick with it ...

How did they recommend you deal with your anger about failed IVf? 

I had my bloods done to check how my body recovers from blood loss and shockingly I have high cholesterol! All that chocolate&#8230; I am in two minds whether to lose weight or not: I am 8 kg heavier than 10 years ago and at least 4 kg heavier than before I started IVf. BUT there only way to lose weight is to replace food with chocolate (because I know it works) &#8211; not healthy at all. 

*alison*, re caffeine, one thing I know is that it narrows blood vessels so blood circulation is distorted. it also increases blood pressure which I know for a fact cos my blood pressure is naturally low but it goes up to normal after a cup of coffee. it's a stimulant so it must make you stressed little bit (i.e. adrenal gland) but I LOVE it, the taste the smell so in that sense it has its therapeutic qualities, I actually feel relaxed and happy while I am having a cup of coffee. I do not drink it for "pick me up" effect because I rarely feel it, I just really love the texture and taste of proper black coffee. Will obviously quit it when we start IVF. 

I know what you mean re staying away when DH is drunk. Not that he has done it in a while but he used to drink and at times was so drunk that he could not remember what happened and how he got home&#8230;. and he had no recollection of me screaming, hitting him and generally being upset etc so I also stopped talking to him when he was like that (not that it was easy mind you!) and picked it up in the mornings. thinking about it made me realise how far we have come in this process. it's been a while since I had to live through something like that, these days I am getting out of temper when he has a pint. I should be grateful to him I suppose it was not easy to change his drinking habits. but still not enough to make a baby&#8230;


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## alison29

That's great about your dh meditating Briss! He will be a much better father for it (and the sobriety ;/) Yoga helps with the mind focus for sure. It is too bad we can't replace food with chocolate I could eat pounds of chocolate everyday.I am going to dermatologist today. I have this hair shedding and itchy scalp/flakey problem. I don't know if their related but I am sick of trying to diagnose myself. Dr google is not solving my problem this time. 

BTW you weren't too negative Briss. What will you do about the cholesterol? What is Brno? My friend at work failed 3rd iui with donor so is considering doing IVF. I told her it at least would take her possibly messed up tubes out of the equation and make sure to have good eggs implanted. She had stage 4 endo (one of her tubes was wrapped around her ovary).


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## Briss

*alison*, I totally agree that you need to see a specialist Dr google is not very helpful as there can be so many reasons for your itchy scalp/flakey problem. I hope it can be quickly resolved. 

re Brno, that's so funny, I also did not know what Brno was and I did not even know how to pronounce it, not enough vowels :) it's a city in Czech republic where Reprofit clinic is. I looked it up it's quite beautiful. I already know the hotel I will be staying at, will fly with Ryanair and found a place for scans/bloods in London, not cheap so maybe going there a few days before EC will be cheaper than doing an additional scan in London. but there is also a problem with taking extra days off work. 

I do not know what to do about cholesterol. I am so surprised about that. all those years of overeating chocolate...


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## Vonn

Alison--I had the same hair majorly falling out & scalp so, so itchy all year round but esp bad in winter (so dry). I also had a ton of other issues that I kept chalking up to being out of shape, getting older, not drinking enough water. Turns out they are all related and = low thyroid (hypothyroidism).

About a year and a half ago my primary care dr. had referred me to a derm for the hair issue & at same time to FS. Got in to the FS first and she said maybe it was a thyroid problem (something they check for because it can cause infertility). I went home and looked it up and was floored. All.my.issues.explained.

For some, it's an easy fix, for others not so much. Anyway, just had to get that out there as a possible answer for you. If they are willing to check for it with a blood test, _make sure_ they test: TSH, Free T4, Free T3, Thyroid peroxidase antibody, Thyroglobulin antibody. If they only want to test TSH, tell them that's not accurate enough for everyone and you want to be thorough.

Good luck!!:thumbup:


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## Blythe

Briss my darling!!! - I was searching through this thread earlier looking for that link to the l-arginine report - the one that says it not great. I did find your notes also on 'everything starts with an egg'. Anyhow, thats an aside.

You are grieving your failed IVF and anger is one of the stages of grief isn't it. I know as i also feel total anger but i did not have to go through what you have just gone through. You are still only a cycle away from it so it is still fresh.You will get pregnant and once you are all this bullshit will just fade away. Just focus on the details of this new cycle.

i read all your questions re the retreat and i just thought to myself what a terrible lawyer i would have made. I really did not ask that many questions, instead i just off loaded about my own angers and frustrations. They advocate living a healthy lifestyle, inc. movement, eating higher frequency foods, avoiding certain foods etc and ensuring mind/body are receptive to new life and attracting your new baby.

Its really hard to be positive with this stuff as we have discussed and agreed on certain things in the past, particularly with regard to manifesting etc. However, i did think at the end of the retreat that i have been dipping in and out of things for the last few years but never really permanently changing anything so that is what i am going to try.

i had not looked on the mama be website so had no idea of the costs. She did say she was cheap but clearly not! Another lady was meant to come on the sunday but she found out she was pregnant the day before having worked with them both. They both have had lots of success with getting women pregnant and i suppose that means they can charge those prices.

i know that vitabiotics are just fine and dandy for most people. i mean most people get pregnant without any supplements at all. I just don't know the answers anymore as it all seems quite random to me.

With regard to my anger Katharine said she could work with me to help shelf it or resolve it...one or the other and move forward. i did not probe as i assume it is through her coaching and reflexology work. I have to say i am considering going to a cheaper reflexologist...they do deals on wowcher!! 

at the end of the retreat they offered a deal so i could work with both of them with a discount...it was still around the 875 mark for about 5 sessions....which would be split between them both. i cannot commit to that right now but i am thinking perhaps this might work for me so I'm keeping options open.

I have to say i felt quite appalling yesterday as i had had a full on yoga session, healing session and reflexology session and my head was thumping all day and i felt really ill. But today i woke up and felt light and detached from what has brought me to this point. i just want to focus on eating and drinking the right things and making my body fit and healthy again. i have felt so lifeless and bogged down with LTTTC and i don't feel like that anymore. things have got to change for me now.

couple of things that stuck...

go outside and expose eyes to natural daylight for at least 30mins per day - no glasses, no contacts as light need to reach back of eye. i always have my contacts in so difficult for me. apparently helps balance hormones

Eating diet rich in high frequency/life force foods - have been getting lists together today and i find it fascinating.

the massage was good - she showed me how to really push against pubic bone around edges which helps massage ovaries and uterus...felt quite tender but apparently very good.

at the end fiona got some supplements out and said one way of determining if your body needs it is holding it against chest with both hands and then closing eyes and asking the question. Your body will go backwards [no] or forwards [yes] - probably more crap but i liked it and will try it with other things...shoes and the like!

i did do some Skype sessions with fiona...i got an hour free when i brought her yoga dvd but i think she offers 30 mins free without purchasing anything. i also do not have a Facebook account so don't worry about the 'like' thing. Its something to think about.

i am sure i will think of other things but my mind is a bit of a blank right now.


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## Briss

*Blythe*, thanks! you always find the right words to make me feel better 

btw, I am checking wowcher for reflexology. I also got that back massager you recommended I think a while ago, the same type as the one we got for feet :) so am seating here with my feet and back being massaged :) heavenly! 

If you feel so changed and so positive after the session that's the main thing, it means its working for you. maybe snapping out of this state of mind of LTTTCer is what we need. can't wait to hear what changes you are going to be making, so exciting! 

I suppose anger is a tough one to cure in one session, but it would be really interesting to see how they will deal with this. 

I never thought about exposing eyes to natural daylight as being related to hormones. my eyes are very sensitive to light even little bit of it. I wonder why

what are the high frequency/life force foods? like fruit and veg?

I have to say I am not sure about massaging ovaries. sounds worrying. is it for blood flow?

that's so funny about backwards/forwards test :) my body tends to naturally lean forward :) I will just say yes to basically anything. did they explain where this test came from and what's the thinking behind it?

thanks for sharing btw, it's all useful stuff to know and different to what we did before so i am hoping it will work.


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## Vonn

Briss--the leaning backwards forwards test is sometimes referred to as _muscle testing _or _applied kinesiology._ I think it came out of TCM originally. Tons of stuff online about it. I think it's really interesting, but never had much luck with it myself. Maybe my qi is blocked. :winkwink:


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## Briss

*Vonn*, I really like your chart, excellent temp rise after O but probably due to synthetic progesterone? sorry to see spotting though. I am sure I have issues with my qi as well, I always self-diagnosed myself with spleen qi deficiency but none of my TCM practitioners saw this as my main deficiency for some reason. 

You are so right, there is a whole new world of Kinesiology out there to be discovered. I started reading and got so interested actually. I think more and more about the energy flow within our bodies, not that I understand any of this but I think there is something to it. Have you tried it?


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## Briss

I am getting so interested in Muscle Testing aka Kinesiology and all the related stuff such as EFT Tapping. I wonder why I never come across this stuff before. Maybe I did I probably just dismissed it as some sort of "fortune telling" stuff. 

*Blythe*, there is an explanation for the Leaning Forward and Backwards tests in here https://www.eftstatements.com/articles/muscle-testing/ sounds like something that takes a lot of practice before you can actually rely on getting the right response. 

I like these rules, particularly the second one - Three rules of the subconscious mind include:
1.	Personal. It only understands I, me, myself. First person.
2.	Positive. The subconscious does not hear the word no. When you say, I am not going to eat that piece of cake, the sub-conscious mind hears Yummm! Cake! I am going to eat a piece of that cake!
3.	Present time. Time does not exist for the subconscious. The only time it knows is now, present time. Im going to start my diet tomorrow. Tomorrow never comes thus the diet is never started.

I looked into high frequency/life force foods but here comes the wheatgrass all over again, cant do this anymore. Happy to stuff myself with pineapples though


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## Blythe

As far as i am concerned if you don't have a good feeling about a food/supplement/drink etc then it becomes low frequency!! I have to say i did not like my old wheatgrass powder so didn't really want to take that but i did buy this at the weekend:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/TERRANOVA-Green-Purity-Super-Blend-40g/dp/B00D8W04J4

and its fairly tasteless. Suggested dose is only 1/2 teaspoon so i mixed with water for a shot and I'm happy to do that when i remember.

With the backwards/forwards thing she also tried it with me putting my arm straight out in front and her pushing against it but the other way was easier for me to notice which had the stronger pull. I have read about kinesiology before but i never paid much attention...i will check those links.

i purposely went out today at lunch and took my glasses off and looked towards the sun.....ouch! my eyes were really watering. I thought about it and really i never go out without glasses/contacts and all week days i am in a building between 7-5 and then on a tube and back in another building so have not really exposed my eyes for years. I am going to do it whenever practical and see if i feel a difference.

i just had another nutribullet smoothie...almond milk [i am going to be using hemp milk from now on as apparently lists of almond milks are make using rice [low frequency food]], almond butter, coconut oil, frozen berries, chia seeds and it was really really delicious. i could easily have these in place of chocolate!

i love my back massager and you have reminded me that i have not used it for months! its coming out of retirement this evening as is the foot massager :)


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## Briss

*Blythe*, I did the same thing today but not starting directly at the sun &#8211; cannot do this and am really scared I will burn my retina, just looking at the day light was more than I could bear. 

That smoothie sounds really good. I read that all frozen foods are low frequency? what about chia seeds? I do like them cos they do not taste of anything and go well with everything


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## Blythe

i don't think staring at the sun is a good thing to do but looking in that general direction is ok. I think i just wanted to expose my eyes to it to see what it felt like. i was reading something else today about exposing eyes/skin to the sun and was inspired. It really has made me think about my lifestyle and even when i am being fit i am doing that in a gym or front room so i really want to try and make an effort to get out there in nature and all that.

you are right about frozen stuff but it is fruit i have frozen rather than factory stuff. I have decided that i will incorporate as much as these foods as i can and make it work for me and my own likes. in fact the smoothie would have been fine with fruit that had not been frozen as it was quite lumpy and really freezing [obviously!].


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## Vonn

Blythe--that smoothie sounds great! My blender motor just died last night while trying to make a smoothie with wheatgrass. That stuff is really awful tasting!

Briss--I am also intrigued by muscle testing, but haven't really used it. I was first told about it by a work colleague. She uses it to help her make decisions, both personal & practical. Like hold 2 different moisturizers up to her chest and muscle test them to know which to buy. I thought it was totally bizarro. How can your body know if Neutrogena or Olay is better?

I briefly tried it while trying to figure out if DH was ever going to propose, but my body didn't really respond. I did not try to train it/prep it though, so I wasn't kidding that my blocked qi may be the problem!

Here's another decent explanation: https://www.goodhealthinfo.net/herbalists/muscle_testing.htm

Thanks for checking out my chart. The first temp jump is me, but the continued climb is all progesterone. I am SOOOO bummed about my spotting. It's early. For the last 2 months it's started on 9 DPO, this was 6 DPO. Going in the wrong direction... :nope::nope::nope:


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## Briss

*Vonn*, I was told that you can get spotting from too much progesterone. sounds strange but apparently it happens. 

What about tzatziki and hummus? are they high frequency or low? I started buying them for dinner with celery sticks and cucumbers. I am just so lazy to make anything for dinner :)


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## alison29

Thanks guys for the info! I am so sorry i just read these posts. I am getting just TSH tested but will look into getting a more thorough panel soon. I can almost guess TSH will be nromal. I do have other hypothyroid symptoms I really wish she would have been more thorough. It turns out I have seborhhic dermatitis on my head. This explains alot of the hair loss she said. I definitely don't look like i am going bald she says! But my pony tail is so much small then it used to be.

So vonn was your TSH abnormal or was it normal and you had to rely on the other parameters for your diagnosis?


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## kits

Hiya ladies,

Just wanted to their a couple of things in there..

Organic maca powder is good for hormones and female fertility in smoothies. I used to always throw goji berries, kept stashes of pumpkin seeds to randomly throw in and would even throw this nasty paste but can't remember what it is atm.

A great very to throw in smoothies is spinach because you can't really taste it. Beetroot is also pretty awesome for you but does have a stronger taste so needs avocado or banana to help it.

Too much blueberries or strawberries can make the smoothie jelly like, if it happens it's not bad but just means you'll have to have it with a spoon, heh.

My favorite concoctions consisted of
Loads of spinach
Beetroot
Bit of banana
Half a mango
Half a papaya (the little ones)
About 10 or so almonds
Maca powder
A good tablespoon of goji berries

And water, can't say I was a fan of having it with milks.

I'd also throw in wheatgerm & semolina which always made them a very fun color, heh. But if tread these 2 a little more carefully as the semolina especially has a ridiculously strong flavor!

I'd have them all day everyday & as Blythe probably knows now, the nutribullet is so simple to keep clean.

However, I did struggle (nausea wise) a little bit at first as I wasn't washing the fruit & veg too well, so after a bit of research I learned it had more to do with pesticides, etc so I started washing things like the spinach & broccoli in a bit of cider vinegar & felt fantastic for it.

I'm a major advocate for the nutribullet & smoothies. I don't care what fitness people say about eating too much fruit, there's just so much goodness in them. Plus, when you're having it with so much veg I can't fault it. 

Sorry for always going off on a tangent, I just really love this topic, especially loved the buzz I'd get for feeling so good & healthy.

I was going to say a lot more stuff but I've completely forgotten by now :blush:

Lots of hugs, always wishing you all the very best.


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## kits

Oh yea, during one of the presentations I participated in the dude mentioned looking up too. But he didn't suggest the sun, heh. That must've been painful!

What he'd tell clients was to count chimneys. Apparently the result between those who did vs those who didn't was quite significant. I'd try it but I'm stupidly clumsy (apparently another symptom not being that healthy).

One thing I do is park that tiny bit further, but not sure how that'd work for you London ladies.

Ok, I'll shut up now...

:hug:


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## kits

Last thing, about the nutribullet.. I don't care what the recipes or books say about throwing on fruit skins, etc in.. That just makes the drink way too difficult to drink add they can be quite strong*!!!

*=putting it mildly


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## Briss

for some reason it's just getting worse and I am feeling more depressed every day. this morning I discovered all too familiar itching down there, can this be that bloody herpes all over again? it's the same place and the same feeling. I am so angry the lab messed up my tests last time so it was never confirmed and I do not even know if it is in fact herpes or something else?? 

I check my facebook page daily mainly because I ditched most of my friends (they all have children and/or grandchildren and it's become unbearable) but I do like to check what they are all up to at least via facebook if not in person. but every now and then I come across baby/children related posts and it makes me feel so lost in this life, so inadequate. I feel like I am in prison serving a sentence actually because I have no life, I work and I TTC, that's all I do while everyone else seems to be moving on with their lives. I am stuck. Had an argument with DH this morning because I do blame him for possibly giving me herpes and when he said he was not sure about IVf anymore I just lost it cos that's all I live for, our next IVf our only hope&#8230;


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## alison29

Briss he was probably using that as ammunition/a pawn in your argument because he was feeling bad about the herpes thing. There is no way he would want to give up now especially after all that healthy life style change and meditating. You are finding a way to do it more cheaply that should really satisfy him.


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## alison29

Stop looking at facebook! Which is more like bragbook in my opinion. You have no idea of what the real story is in people's lives they just put the best pictures etc on there. My sister is the worst about it posts all the time with pics of herself but won't post a family pic where everyone else looks good but her arm looks "fat".

Sorry about the itching possible outbreak.


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## Vonn

Briss--You poor thing! I agree with Alison that Facebook is probably not helping. It's so idealized that it likely just makes you feel worse. But you do need to maintain contact with people who know you and care about you. You def have your online family here, but I don't think it should replace all personal contact. Do you have a couple friends you could reach out to and be honest with? That you miss their companionship, but can't bear to hear about kids all the time? Perhaps you could make a pact that you won't talk about LTTTC & they won't talk about babies? You could center your time together around an activity, knitting or taking an art class, or something like that. Or, perhaps a therapist would help? You might be clinically depressed, which no one should be ashamed of getting help for.

Alison--Yes, I am one of those unlucky people whose lab numbers are more moderate than my symptoms would indicate. Others have terrible numbers but no symptoms. My TSH was 5 & both T4 and T3 were borderline low. I only had my Reverse T3 tested once (hard to find labs/Drs that will test it), but my RT3/Free T3 ratio was not good. My numbers have improved as have many symptoms since going on Nature-Throid and a slate of other pills--but not everything. Dr won't increase anymore because she thinks my TSH is too low. She thinks maybe something else is causing the thyroid to be underactive. So the tests continue. 

Sorry for rambling on about this. I can never seem to be brief about it. I've read too much & spent too much time thinking about it all. (Briss--I think we are similar in this regard.) I need to work on NOT focusing on it all so much! 

Never heard of getting light without contacts or glasses. I wonder what the science is behind it? I am blind as can be without lenses, so I'd have to step out on my patio first thing in the morning. I know I won't be doing that at least 5 months out of the year. Winters here are looooong and brutal!


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## Briss

was reading this article on the BBC https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-24725655 a lady said something that I felt was exactly how I feel about TTC and infertility " When people ask me about the worst part of infertility, I tell them it's the silence - they take that to mean that nobody talks about it and that is partly true, but for me, it's the silence which comes from the isolation and the lost friends who have moved on and had children. I no longer have anything in common with my peers. My mother-in-law recently told me that life goes on and it does go on around me, but life also stops with me - where there are no children, there are no grandchildren, no-one to care in later life, no legacy and that is silence which terrifies me "

that's a good one as well: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-29722267 but probably too late for me 

*Vonn*, I had two friends that were LTTTC and I could talk to them (not as openly as I talk here but still), both are pregnant now so that's the end of our friendship. I am really happy for them, they deserve it but it's hard for me cos it reminds me of what should have happened to me. even when we do not discuss their pregnancies it's the mere fact that they are going to have babies while I carry on struggling that's making me sad and hard to see them. 

I do not like people who hide behind " clinically depressed " mask, we all have tragedies and stressful situations in our life and my thinking is that you should deal with it. I do not know many people who have gone through what I had to go through in my life (hence turning grey before my time) and I naturally tend to be negative (although that's how other people see me, I see myself as a realist if I am honest) because that's been my life experience but I do tend to overcome my issues and move on because most things can be dealt with if you persevere. Unfortunately getting pregnant is an exception. your efforts are not always getting you the results and on the contrary people who do not want children get pregnant easily. it's very random, that's why it's very hard to deal with, particularly long term, I am talking years. There aren't that many people who really have serious psychological conditions and are truly clinically depressed. just take my colleague who recently resigned for example, she could not cope with the pressure of working in the City, a very bright girl, oxford graduate, very intelligent and now on some antidepressants. that's the worst thing ever. instead of dealing with her issues and trying to find a way to cope, the doctors just labelled her as clinically depressed and put her on antidepressants because that's what they do. there is no way out of this, this medication is not helping anything. so no, I do not agree about being clinically depressed. I am very sad and angry about my situation that's true but this is because my circumstances are such. Only a person for whom having children is not really a big deal in life and in effect a question of quality of life rather than life/death issue can live my life without feeling that sad. But you are right I do have very good friends here, at least in that I am fortunate 

*alison*, I do not join many people on FB only the ones I know really well so I could keep in touch but it's getting harder and harder. 

just had my scan at the Gynaecology Ultrasound Center. Am so impressed with Davor Jurkovic! he really knows how and where to look. No one ever did a scan so thoroughly. He practically looked everywhere even my bowels, no stone left unturned quite literally, he even showed me a place where the needle went into my ovary! impressive. he also said that my cyst on the right is most likely endometriosis - even when I had lap they did not find that! the good news is that everything else looks as it should so I am officially good to go for IVF. he also said rather depressingly that bleedings like mine happen 2-3 time a year in London


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## Blythe

I don't like FB...i deactivated my account along time ago. There is nothing more tiresome than people posting about their children.....

I'm so sorry you are feeling rotten...but very happy to see that your scan went well. This doctor sounds great....it is amazing that they are able to decipher those blurred images you get on the screen. it all looks the same to me.


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## Briss

*Blythe*, it was incredible. this doc was moving it around showing me different bits, it's the first time I saw my uterus not as a line but in full view, it's beautiful! he also showed how to see if there are any polyps in there, you just follow the line and if it does not break it means the lining is good and there is nothing abnormal. he also was pressing on my tummy and I could see my ovaries moving, unbelievable! a slight pressure has dramatic effect on the ovary it moves a lot, and my right one did not move as much and it's because of the cyst apparently so he said it must be endometriosis. I mean it's shocking cos I had lap where they could actually see the cyst and they still did not diagnose it as endo. and he also said that it's possible my right ovary is not functioning well because of the cyst but he did not think any treatment would help here. anyway he literally looked everywhere and there was no blood and no adhesions so i am happy about it. I am lucky insurance is paying for this but next time I need a scan that's the [lace I am going to. I do not mean IVF scans these are easy just observing follicles and lining but when you really need to understand what's going on inside. 

I am afraid if I deactivate my FB account I will be cut off from everyone I know because I rarely see anyone in person these days...


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## Hope3

Briss I have to say I admire your determination to keep going in the face of so many disappointments. I feel angry for you and others who fill their bodies with every supplement and organic superfood going in the vain hope that it will shift the balance when others don't have to try anyway near as hard. I really hope this latest round works for you. 

I can relate to your earlier comment about all work & ttc. I feel as if ttc has taken over my identity. I'm no longer bubbly & energetic. I'm sad most of the time. My job as a teacher is all consuming and I don't see friends that often. I resent the fact that on my pay I can't afford private ivf. With unexplained infertility there's nothing to do but keep trying which means a never ending cycle of faint hope & crushing disappointment. 

I'm going to the Fertility Show next weekend. Never been before so I hope to get some answers. 

Thanks for sharing so openly and honestly, especially the research.


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## Hope3

Vonn said:


> Alison--I had the same hair majorly falling out & scalp so, so itchy all year round but esp bad in winter (so dry). I also had a ton of other issues that I kept chalking up to being out of shape, getting older, not drinking enough water. Turns out they are all related and = low thyroid (hypothyroidism).
> 
> About a year and a half ago my primary care dr. had referred me to a derm for the hair issue & at same time to FS. Got in to the FS first and she said maybe it was a thyroid problem (something they check for because it can cause infertility). I went home and looked it up and was floored. All.my.issues.explained.
> 
> For some, it's an easy fix, for others not so much. Anyway, just had to get that out there as a possible answer for you. If they are willing to check for it with a blood test, _make sure_ they test: TSH, Free T4, Free T3, Thyroid peroxidase antibody, Thyroglobulin antibody. If they only want to test TSH, tell them that's not accurate enough for everyone and you want to be thorough.
> 
> Good luck!!:thumbup:


I wish I'd known about the different elements of thyroid testing when I asked for mine to be done. I have Raynaud's phenomenon, scalp issues & brittle nails despite all the vitamins I take. After googling my symptoms I discovered they are linked to thyroid issues. 

When my blood test results came back my GP said everything was fine. On the one hand I'm glad it's ok but it just means that my unexplained infertility is still just that.


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## Briss

*Hope*, thank you! I do think the NHS funding system is out of order and so totally unfair. The UK private clinics are charging disproportionately large fees compared to other European clinics - this should not be happening and I could understand if the quality of service was superior but as far I can gather from the ladies who opted to go abroad the quality is often better abroad. Doing IVF abroad is obviously inconvenient but I feel we can save a lot of money and afford more treatments in Czech republic but let's see how I feel when we actually start our treatment. 

I've never been to a Fertility Show, please share your experience. I am always scared I may bump into somebody I know at that place and that would be embarrassing because only my very close friends know we TTC. 

I agree with Vonn, thyroid test are important and it's very unhelpful when they just say it's all normal because you are looking for tiny changes like TSH on the higher end of normal while T3/T4 on lower end of normal = potentially underactive thyroid even though on the face of it the results are within norm. e.g. fertility clinics like TSH to be below 2 even though anything up to 4 is considered normal. I know how hard it is to get GP to run these tests, I had to go and pay for mine cos they just would not do it and when my TSH came as 3.7 (yes, it's within norm but it's actually super high and may interfere with fertility) they would not even refer me to an endocrinologist so I had to use my work insurance. 

*afm*, I found myself at a sex health clinic this morning surrounded by "wild youth", last time I went there was about 15 years ago when I had an affair with a black man from Sudan I think he was and interestingly I had no issues back then but now being an "older" and well married and respectable sort of "lady" I am back at that clinic but only this time I do have something!! after 13 years of being with the same guy. this is ridiculous! anyway, after searching down there for ages they finally found some tiny little thing which is causing my symptoms but could not say if it was indeed herpes. they took some samples but cos the thing is really tiny they told me it may not reveal anything so I am still at a loss what is it that I have.


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## Hope3

With the herpes testing the trick is to get to the clinic as soon as the sores appear as more of the virus is present to be tested. Otherwise you could be given a false negative despite showing symptoms.


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## alison29

That sucks For both of us with the thyroid testing Hope3. Have you ever thought of a natural thyroid booster? I am thinking about it.


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## Hope3

You can do that? I'll have to look into it.


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## Briss

*alison*, what is a natural thyroid booster? When I asked the endocrinologist if there was anything I could do to help my thyroid cos I am, obviously at a risk of developing underactive thyroid. he just said there is nothing! I asked about iodine and other supplements but he said it's very dangerous particularly when thyroid is fragile and can tip the scale off balance so no iodine or other thyroid supps for me.


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## Blythe

When i went to that fertility retreat they spoke about kelp being a great supplement. i said that my TSH levels were ok but they said ignore the scales they use for what is normal. 

Both fiona and the other lady will be at the Fertility show. They said last time it was mostly focused on hard sell IVF with few natural alternatives....


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## Blythe

ps - i asked her about caffeine and why its a no no and she said she would blog about it......

maybe ask her about thyroid


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## Blythe

Briss - how is the itch....has it got worse or gone?

i am still loving my nutribullet and used it today to make a great curry paste although the turmeric has coloured the plastic now and not sure how to get that out.


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## Briss

*Hope*, that's the thing I went to the sex clinic the next morning after I had that itch but it seems like it was already too late. so strange, the nurse said it will be OK to BD in two days and I did feel like it was getting better but this morning I think it's still there. It's hard to explain it's very minor just a bit of discomfort now and then but I do not think it completely disappeared yet. 

How was the fertility show? 

*Blythe*, it's really good that they diagnosed and treated chlamydia quickly it can really mess up fertility if left untreated. 

That's a really nice car! It's so funny what you say about that guy, guys can talk, cant they. when they want a woman they will say just about anything. I recall falling for a guy who had a huge white Mercedes and inside it just looked like a space ship to me (I was 20!). He took me to various trendy clubs and I was completely smitten but I was a virgin back then so I did not sleep with him in the end (I was very choosy). The guy went through his money very quickly and when we met again in a year or so he did not have the Mercedes and without it he just did not look the part&#8230; I did not even realise that I fell for the car not the guy. 

I have a few friends who married guys from Nigeria. I used to go to their parties we would dress up in traditional clothing, wonderful colours but unfortunately the hair pieces would not really work for our hair type. you really need proper curls to hold it all in place. looks beautiful though.

I do not think I've ever tried peanut butter actually, I hate peanuts so the very thought of peanuts and butter together just makes me want to puke. 

*afm*, got my peak this morning. a little disappointed to see early O but I guess it is what it is. also slightly annoyed not to have my usual sex drive this cycle. I know I complain a lot about it but it does help to get through the first half of the cycle, it takes my mind off things that depresses me cos it's so overwhelming I literally cant think of anything else for days before O. This cycle I just did not have that. I was waiting but it did not come. there is a little bit of sex drive but not nearly the amount I usually get. Very strange cos I got my HIGH two days before the PEAK &#8211; supposed to show high estrogen but where is the sex drive? Cant decide whether to BD or not. I really think we should but that little thing down there worries me. 

I run out of CBFM sticks and was going to buy them in boots but the prices are just shocking! I always order mine from amazon and did not realise the difference. Luckily I had time to get my order just before CD6 so I did not need to buy it on high street.

am due to do another presentation this week, so not ready and totally not my subject so I need to learn a lot. Feeing stressed at the moment, hate public speaking!


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## alison29

Briss I have a public. Speaking phobia I hate it! I am a scientist to so public speaking is part of the job a lot..good luck!


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## alison29

Blythe said:


> When i went to that fertility retreat they spoke about kelp being a great supplement. i said that my TSH levels were ok but they said ignore the scales they use for what is normal.
> 
> Both fiona and the other lady will be at the Fertility show. They said last time it was mostly focused on hard sell IVF with few natural alternatives....

I think I will try kelp and t 3 booster well see wha my tsh is.


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## Briss

It looks like I've reached my limit re weight issue. I've been trying so hard to ignore it and focus on something else, I've been avoiding mirrors and telling myself that my look is not important but I've just reached the point where I can no longer accept it. I've never been this fat, I have no idea how 9 days of stims can make me put on 4-5 kg but it happened (in addition to 5 extra kg I already had). With all the blood loss it seemed like not a good idea to think about the weight issue so I just ate everything I wanted and not surprisingly I did not really lose any weight since the IVF. My wardrobe is limited to one suit and two dresses, I have nothing else that I can wear. I have a couple of skirts but no shirts or tops that would fit. btw that "fat suit" that I bought before IVF does not fit me now&#8230; I am on the whole different level of fatness. I no longer recognise any part of my body. I've been trying to persuade myself that it does not matter because I am still considered "average" and that I should not do any diet until my next IVf but the truth is I cant do it, I feel I need to take control. now that the blood issue is resolved I think I should go back to calorie counting. I have a couple of business trips next week so dieting will be problematic but I can try and stick to 800-900 a day for the next 10 days &#8211; 2 weeks before I start IVf I may lose 1-2 kg and that would at least be something. I know the main issue is that I cannot sustain my diet unless half of it comes from chocolate but I still think I should go for it. I will try and replace chocolate with raisings as much as I can. I will also be trying to limit coffee to weekends only. 

You can tell that I am prepared to do just about anything other than prepare for the presentation&#8230; I hate it so much, I can actually deal with public speaking cos I noticed when I know what I want to say I am OK with it and even enjoy it sometimes. The problem is that I have to speak on the topic I know nothing about, so I have to learn it first which I just hate doing, I do not want to do anything unless it brings me closer to pregnancy and wasting time on learning something new about legal matters is just unbearable.


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## alison29

I am jealous you can enjoy it sometimes, not me! I would just go for the chocolate. I think raisens have a ton of sugar still and you will still feel deprived whereas with the chocolate you will have something to look forward too. I think I did pretty good this weekend considering I was visiting and at carnival. I ate a ittle bit of dh bloomin onion but picked off the coating. I had only one tea bag each day. Today i am back to splitting it. We rode a some rides and we all got sick (dh didn't ride any). He had a good chuckle about his sensitive family. We were under an umbrella to avoid sun, I was plugging my ears the music was so loud which was makign me sickerat this one ride, and my son was laying down in dh's lap on the ground he was so sick. Fun times!


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## Blythe

the fertility meds do take their toll. my body really has taken a battering this year and I'm only just starting to feel strong again and in better control of my eating. The results are starting to show and that feels good. i start my day with Bragg's ACV and fresh lemon juice and will try and up that to 2 x per day. I have also brought some ankle weights and i am wearing them around the house...every little helps!

Briss - you have found something that works for you in order to loose weight so just stick with it. It might not be the recommended way but it works and carrying excess weight causes more stress on the body than [half] living on chocolate for a few weeks. When are you looking at starting the IVF cycle?

i have to say this cycle is good for me...i got a strong positive on OPK along with [some] EWCM and huge increase in sex drive all at the same time. My sex drive is never this strong and i have been thoroughly enjoying it...reminiscing about things i shouldn't be reminiscing about and feeling quite naughty :)


Alison - i also hate public speaking....it simply terrifies me. Completely irrational but something i really struggle to change despite having worked on it over the years.


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## Briss

*alison*, sounds like you had good time, it's great to let go sometimes. It was my DH's birthday as well and we had quite a bit of wine so I was out of it the entire weekend, that's when I feel old when it takes days to recover from alcohol even if you only had half bottle of good quality red wine. Hating my presentation and feel stressed about it. last time I tried reading my notes but it was a disaster because you need to be flexible during the presentation and I could not cos I was relying on my notes too much and it showed (the only good outcome of this disaster was the fact I was not invited to do any more presentations for about a year). so this time I am trying to learn this stuff but it takes so much effort and I have to keep forcing myself because I have zero interest, my only motivation is the fear of looking stupid tomorrow and embarrassing myself. 

*Blythe*, I am so glad you are noticing positive changes. Great news on your cycle I am so hoping it will finally work for you. It does make it all better when you have your sex drive, isn't it? I had almost none this cycle and interestingly last year it was quite similar the second cycle after my failed IVF I did not have much sex drive either. Not sure what's it all about. I did not know you start your day with vinegar and lemon juice &#8211; quite aggressive on the stomach? I also have some ankle weights at home, should really be wearing them as well. I may start doing some exercise now, I do not feel as fragile. 

I started my calorie counting yesterday and did my first weigh in today &#8211; truly depressing 58.3 kg! I was 59 on EC and below 55 before I started IVF. I need to be 50-51 to be back at my normal weight and feel happy about my body. A very long way to go. I am doing OK during the day but evenings are hard, I just keep thinking about food all the time. got myself tonnes of celery sticks and cucumbers to get me through the evenings.


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## alison29

I have read to drink lemon water first thing in the morning too it alkalizes the body and is best on empty stomach. Also that ACV has great benefits a friend of mine at work was mixing hers with a bit apple juice and said it didn't taste that bad.
Blythe did you ditch the caffeine yet? I am feeling pretty sluggish this morning but it may just be psychosomatic I am down to one third tea bag. I mix one third a cup into a decaf cup. I know about decaf's down falls maybe some day I will make something totally healthy but one thing at a time.


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## Briss

*alison*, I know that lemon water is super healthy but I think it also depends on your stomach. I have gastritis so cannot even imagine the pain I will get if I drink lemon water on an empty stomach leaving alone vinegar. but if your stomach can take it it's great. I am sticking to mate, nettles and other herbal drinks for alkalinisation. Could not make it without coffee this morning, will try again tomorrow.


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## scarlettw

Hi, is anyone doing the chinese acupunture? I tried it and the man told me my womb was too cold. Don't know what that means but afterward I felt great. And this was 2 days before I ovulated. currently 6 dpo. I'm hoping something worked!!


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## alison29

I am not doing accupuncture right now but it has worked for me in the past.

Briss: that is funny that coffee tears me up gives me reflux but I can drink dilute vinegar and lemon water. Whatever works. Since you body does not reject coffee maybe it is not that bad for you. I think it just matters that you alkalize.


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## Vonn

Hi scarlettw--I am currently doing acupuncture and herbs, for 3 months so far. Not much change yet, but I believe it can help. We'll see. I think it's pretty common to hear the cold diagnosis and be told to eat and drink primarily warming foods and drinks. 

My acu was talking to me about my deficient qi and I asked if there is only one qi for the whole body. She said each major organ has its own qi, so I asked if all my qi-s are deficient. I expected the depressing answer of yes. Instead, she told me that my heart qi was strong, and that that is often not the case for women dealing with infertility. For some reason that made me feel so good. Esp since sometimes I feel so broken-hearted about it all.

A while back I wrote a big long response to the thyroid booster topic and the iPad/BnB froze up and I lost it all. That's happened a few times. Made me so made I didn't post at all for a few days. Has that happened to anyone else?

Anyway, I haven't tried thyroid-boosting supplements since I want to know exactly how my body is reacting to my medication. So I can't speak to them, though I've seen numerous ones out there. They do tend to have selenium in them, which is also great for fertility (both men and women), so I'd say take some of that. I actually am taking that, although my dr didn't put me on it for my thyroid necessarily. I think the kelp/seaweed idea is super healthy, tons of antioxidants. I don't think you can go wrong with that, but I haven't read too much about it.


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## Blythe

Alison. I managed one day caffeine free. I love my cup if tea too much.....I have stopped my jug of black coffee in the morning though which I guess is something but I have milk and sugar in my tea which is not do great! 

I don't drink it throughout day just 2 before midday. I don't think that is going to cause my an issue so not too concerned. I am making healthy changes elsewhere and , for me, it's about making changes that can be sustained long term so so r baddies will stay but I hope most will go :)


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## Blythe

Vonn - there are few things more frustrating than losing a whole post...yes it does happen from time to time and i try to copy my longer posts prior to posting just in case.

I was looking at your chart...what is your acupuncturist trying to address...in western terms? i know you mentioned before some spotting? What supplements are you taking? Have you had day 21 bloods taken to check your progesterone levels?

i have had intermittent issues with spotting and went through stage of obsessing about progesterone issues...i tried creams etc but nothing worked. It did resolve itself although i have had a lot of spotting in recent cycles but i have been on fertility meds of one kind or another for about 5 months of this year so i guess that may explain that!! Don't get too hung up about the spotting though as i see plenty of women on FF with spotting and BFPs.


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## Briss

*Vonn*, your previous chart shows a problem with LP. I think this might be your main issue, 8 days is just not enough for implantation cos it may take a week for the embryo to travel down the tube to the uterus. Did your acu doc mention any kidney yang deficiency? It would be great if they could help extend your LP so you wont have to take progesterone.

I've lost a few long posts with lots of info and did not really have it in me to type it all up all over again so I usually write my posts elsewhere and then just copy/paste them here.

*afm*, Presentation's done and dusted! so relieved!! I did not do too bad either so am double relieved. although there were a couple of moments where I was about to lose my voice&#8230; Had an upsetting moment this morning when I realised that my favourite suit, that I usually wear on special occasions cos it makes me look just right and gives me a bit of confidence, does not really fit me well. had to urgently resort to sliming tights and it worked I managed to fit in and was looking well at the presentation.

I wanted to start my IVF next cycle but the doc from reprofit sounded so negative about our chances that I am really put off. She was basically saying that with the IVF failures I've had we have very low chances with natural IVF and should do mild stims. mainly cos we may not get the egg and even if we do it may not fertilise so the more eggs we can get the better but It does not make any sense to me cos the only time we had a viable embryo was when I had natural IVf. To me it seemed really clear that stim just do not work and nothing can suppress my LH levels they will keep rising no matter what and the whole maturation process will be compromised. I did explain that to her previously a couple of times, I do not understand why she does not agree with my way of thinking on this? I really do not want to do stims because after two failed IVFs I am sure we will get zero fertilisation again regardless of how many eggs we will get. My body can produce good quality eggs if it let be. I would insist on natural IVF but when she sounds so negative about our chances I am really not sure I want to cycle with them anymore. Don't know what to think

re weight, a bit of progress here but it is tough so I can barely manage to stay within 900-950 calories. am eating disproportionate amount of radishes and cucumbers in the evenings. Am off to a business trip next week and you wont believe this but the client is a manufacturer of sweet things and various confectionaries. That's going to be tough!


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## Vonn

Briss--glad the presentation is over and that its went well! What a relief! I have a big event at my work on Monday that I am working long hours to prepare for. Looking forward to it and to it being over!

Sorry to hear about the bad dr conversation. I think you would regret not trusting your gut. You may not be a dr but no dr knows your body and unique situation like you do. I understand the concern of wNting the dr to be totally on board with the plan, though. Tough call.

AFM, I totally have luteal phase issues. Before going on progesterone they were btwn 8-11 days long. Now, it's usually longer. The 2 months before this short one LPs were 12 days long. This aren't real consistent, though, obviously.

Acu put me on new tincture tonight, rather than the herbs. She wasn't happy about the short LP & wants to try something new. Had crazy buzzing feeling with the needle in my head tonight. It freaked me out a little!


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## Vonn

Going back the ACV, have any of you tested your ph level? My dr told me to but I bought defective test strips so have to order others.

Blythe--my acu is treating pain-related thyroid symptoms (gut stuff and morning headaches and tension from jaw-clenching) and infertility. The low progesterone and general hormonal imbalance could all come from the thyroid, or all of the above could be caused by some other issue that has thrown everything out of whack. My dr is trying to sort thru it all. Slow process...

I'm on a number of things not necessarily for fertility, but which are also taken for fertility. Zinc, selenium, b comlplex, coq10, dhea. May ask to increase dosage of some of these to improve fertility. Progesterone, of course.

I hope your strong cycle ends with a BFP!!! I haven't had any sex drive for years. It's so sad. I feel terrible about it, esp because we are newly weds, got married on March 29!

Alison--what are u going to take as a t3 booster? Just curious.


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## nobump

Briss glad your presentation went well. Yeah to skinny tights! 

Tend to use my phone more than laptop so post never that long. But frustrating when you lose them.

Getting some bloods done today to recheck fsh etc... I am day 2 started spotting on Wednesday but not nuch. So difficult to get appointment with nurse for bloods got to book in advance. ...

I am currently doing acu and herbs. But think will stop herbs after this 5 week block. The tea taste vile.


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## Briss

*nobump*, I hope your bloods come back fine. Do your estrogen together with FSH it helps to understand the result. Some of the herbs I had to take tasted so bad and smelled just awful it was really hard but I still think wheat grass juice was the worst because the aftertaste stayed with me for a few hours after I had each shot. I still feel like puking every time I think about it. 

*Blythe*, I have been thinking about what you said re vitamins/pregnacare and decided to ditch my pregnacare conception. I replaced it with solgar and it's not really that more expensive but they also have good levels of vitamins E and B12 so I do not need to buy that additionally. I am now taking Female Multiple Tablets before O (https://www.solgar.co.uk/SolgarProducts/Female-Multiple-Tablets.htm) and Prenatal Nutrients Tablets after O (https://www.solgar.co.uk/SolgarProducts/Prenatal-Nutrients-Tablets.htm)

*Vonn*, best of luck with your event on Monday! I hope it goes well. what you said about "regretting not trusting my gut" is so true, I've been there so many times, relying on doctors and going against my gut feeling only to be proved right but usually with unfortunately consequences. I also had a chat with DH and he did not seem very opposed of the idea of stims but then it was not him who was taking all the hormones&#8230; I do feel my body will perform better if let alone. Anyway, thanks, you are giving me confidence to insist on my opinion. 

I had my head and face needled in the past, felt really strange. One acu doc was trying to cure my acne which got worse on her herbs and I was getting lots of needles in my face but in the end the only thing that really helped was quitting her herbs. 

I really hope she can sort out your LP, possibly that's all you need to achieve pregnancy. 

interestingly your temp is higher during your AF, could there be any excess heat issues? 

I used to be obsessed about my ph levels and alkalising. My CA 125 &#8211; it's a cancer marker came positive and I went through a lot of stress before I was told it's false alarm but during that time I read a lot on cancers and realised that quitting sugar and generally alkalising your body is a good way to prevent cancerous sells developing. Sugary stuff is one of the most acidic things you can eat actually. I got some urine and saliva strips and was checking my ph levels every few hours for several days and I noticed that my acidity levels are usually higher in the morning but then during the day it goes down and most of the day I am completely alkaline. Also, I am not convinces urine is the best place to check your ph levels because your blood for example will stay alkaline no matter what. basically your body will do what it must to maintain the normal ph levels. My conclusion was that we just need to cut down on sugar, make sure we drink alkaline stuff like lemon water or mate tea and eat our greens, that's basically enough to help your body maintain ph levels.


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## Blythe

Briss - many thanks for links to the solgar products. I will stock up on these once i have finished the odds and ends i have already.

I'm glad the presentation went well - well done!

i agree with Vonn re trusting your gut. I am no medic but i am so in tune with my body now and feel i know what is bad for me.....i remember calling the IVF clinic 3 times to beg them to do an earlier egg collection as i felt my body changing but they said no......I totally feel i would have done better if my eggs had not been blitzed with all those drugs for so long.

i have a new favourite food to report on!!!!! it is the totally unsociable sauerkraut - and this one is simple delicious. Its super good for you, low in calories and high frequency too :) i am having it with everything in place of sauces/dressings and to make dry food a bit more palatable. 
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Biona-Orga...TF8&qid=1414759667&sr=8-1&keywords=sauerkraut

Vonn - i used to and still do a lot of jaw clenching. Some years ago my dentist made me a shield i was meant to wear every night during sleep. I gave it up after a month or two. I carry so much tension in my face and i really try to relax it....this is one of my favourite youtube videos...this guy is great [not sure if there is a part one to this]:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AirxmTk9cpc

i look forward to hearing about positive changes to your cycle....hopefully you should see them within 6 months of doing both the acu and herbs.

How much DHEA are you taking? I was taking the micronised one but have ditched it now as i had hair loss.


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## Briss

*Blythe*, I love Sauerkraut!! although I did not know it was called like that, not even sure how to pronounce it :) I just call it sour cabbage&#8230; you can actually buy fresh one (although not sure how fresh it is) in Polish/Russian shops, there is one in Queensway


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## alison29

Blythe that is great that you did one day I am have not gone all free yet. I think will try tuesday. Yes good to be rid of the coffee. I love tea with sweetner and milk too. 

Vonn have you tried wearing a mouth guard at night? This has helped me immensley. I ordered it online for a bout 89 $ its custom fit and has saved me from daily headache and jawpain.

BRiss: Yay for the presentation! I just bought some slimming underwear for a couple of my holiday dresses can't wait to see the difference. Good job on the veggies at night. I binged on halloween candy the other night.


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## Nikki1979

Hi everyone , can I join in? 

I am 35 and have been ttc number 2 for the from Feb last year. Have managed to get pregnant twice but lost the babies really early. I read so many good things so decided to try acupuncture from this cycle. I have done 3 sessions so far ( I go weekly and apart from the boredom of lying still for 30 mins, I like it.) 

The lady who is doing my treatments said that I have symptoms of a cold uterus and that could be causing implantation problems. She gave me some pills to take ( You Gui Wan) but I am a bit hesitant to take them in the tww ( I am 7/8dpo) today. Some sites say not to be taken during pregnancy so not sure what to do. I don't mind taking in the follicular phase though. 

Good luck to everyone and lots of baby :dust:


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## Vonn

Thanks, everyone, for the questions and suggestions! I'll see if I can remember them all. 

Blythe--I am on only small dose of 10 mg of DHEA. Since I had hair loss from low thyroid, I don't think I its happened from DHEA. Testosterone is not high, although DHEA number is not where my dr wants. I'll have to ask her about it. Are u still feeling good about your cycle?

Alison--to get my insurance to cover acu, I have to have some pain to treat. So, it worked out that I was having a recurrence of headaches and gut pain. I do have a mouth guard and I hate it, so I don't use it. Probably didn't give it enough time, but then headaches went away (only to come back when I started going to acu). 

BTW Alison-jaw clenching causing headaches, esp ones u wake with but then go away, are a low thyroid symptom. Add it to your list, if you haven't, in case u need to fight for more attention on this in future.

Briss--my temps usually drop the day of or the next morning, depending on how early/late in day AF starts. This months start was weird. And now 4 days in a row of same temp. That's weird too. How's the diet going?

Caffeine--I drink a cup of black tea, fertilitea from Making Babie book, in morning every day. Occasionally Ill have a soda. I eat amost no chocolate. I used to have a cup of coffee and a diet soda every day--killer headaches when I quit.


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## Blythe

*Nikki* - hi :) You Gui Wan support Kidney Yang. I used to take this post ovulation up till AF to support a potential pregnancy/progesterone during 2WW. Your practitioner should be able to provide you with reassurance about whether it is ok for you to take post ovulation though.

*Vonn* - i was just happy that i ovulated at the same time i got my EWCM as usually that comes days before my positive opk which can be frustrating and confusing. Having gone through 4 years of doing this i have no expectations that this cycle will be any different to the others but you never know!!

*Briss* - We have some decent polish delis around here too although i have not ventured into one yet. anyhow, this is of interest on the pickled food front:
https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/f...in-late-thirties/story-fneuz8zj-1226782588462


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## Vonn

Nikki--yes, join us! I hope your issue is one that acu can address. I enjoy talking with my acu dr & dozing off once the needles are in. The needling itself is a little uncomfortable because she wiggles them around.

Some of these ladies aren't currently doing acu, but they know a lot about it and about just about everything else TTC!

I know you also have a thyroid issue from another thread. I hope that is being optimally treated. It can cause infertility & miscarriage. Hypothyroidmom blog/website is good for learning about this. Do you have lab numbers for TSH, free t4, and free t3? All are vital to knowing where u stand.

I hope we all get well & get BFPs soon, so we can stop needing to be experts on all this stuff! It's exhausting!


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## Jazzbird

Nikki - hi I'm a qualified acupuncturist. You absolutely can take some forms of you gui wan in pregnancy - there are slight formula variations so suspect the sites you visited probably don't include the exact ingredients you are taking. I would always talk any concerns over with your practitioner. You Gui Wan is a fantastic formula for infertility. In fact I was taking it one of the months I got pregnant 

I'm sure your acu has already advised you wrap up warm and don't walk around without socks on! Also avoid swimming. Hot water bottle in your lower back for 20 minutes in 2 ww is good for cold uterus as is putting your feet in warm water every night for 10 minutes. Avoid cold and raw foods too. Eat plenty of soups and stews, particularly butternut squash, sweet potato etc.

Hello to everyone else. Still reading and praying for you all, esp Briss and Blythe xxx


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## Briss

Ladies,I am so hungry... :( its only 6 pm and I've already reached 800 calories. Last night I was going mad from food cravings. Stuffing myself with cauliflower.


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## Blythe

Jazzbird - xx

Briss - I have consumed red wine, 2 huge servings of shepards pie and almost entire large circle bowl of quality street even the crappy toffees I don't like. I feel awful - stick with the cauliflower you will feel triumphant in the morning....I will feel sick and fat! But back on it tomorrow!!!


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## Briss

jazzbird, so nice to hear from you! I hope all is well. 

Blythe, interesting article, am definitely going to that place tomorrow for some sour cabbage :) can't stay away from putting things into my mouth, already over 1,000 calories... only 10 pm :( looking through my photos I made in Greece last year after I lost weight for inspiration but hunger is really getting to me. besides TMI I did not poo for 2 days, not great

am watching "red lights" about people with psychic powers and charlatans, interesting but makes me uneasy.


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## Briss

*Nikki*, welcome! I am very sorry about your losses. have you done any immune checks or any other investigation? Jazzbird is our in-house expert of TCM. I have done acu and herbs with 4 different practitioners but somehow I did not see the result I wanted so I am taking a break for the moment while I am considering our next step.

*alison*, in the end I decided to keep coffee because black one does not have any calories and I do need something good to keep me going, can't deprive myself of everything at once. but I will definitely stop before our next IVF.

*Vonn*, I love your temp last few days, it's so steady! I think steady temp is a very positive sign. are you going to take progesterone this cycle? well done in quitting diet soda, they are the worst I think and so addictive. I never liked them myself (I can't stand cold drinks) but I saw how women struggled to quit their diet colas and the like.

*Blythe*, in the end I went slightly overboard on grapes last night but not too much, overall below 1100 calories. still, it's not enough to for me to lose weight but probably enough not to put any on. I have not lost anything in the last two days but probably due to constipation. I even had that detox evening tea that has laxative effect but it did not work (always worked before) so will be sticking to lactulose today, it's so sweet probably lots of calories 

ladies on Reprofit thread were giving me hard time yesterday so I was even thinking whether Reprofit is the right place for me. I know a lot of women from the UK go there for donors so most women on the thread are DE IVFers but not everyone and I am certainly sticking with my own eggs so it was really upsetting that even after I politely but quite firmly stated that we are going with OE for personally reasons (without going into detail though as I do not want to upset anyone who goes with DE, I can imagine it was not an easy decision so I am keeping my opinions to myself really on that one) but they went on and on virtually trying to persuade me to give up??? it's like no one believes I have a chance, I was so distressed reading their "kindly meant" suggestions on how to "move on" but actually was this close to jumping off my balcony. I know that genes are not important for some women but to me it's everything. Luckily the moderator intervene and asked everyone to stop the discussion as I made my choice very clear. Am now thinking whether Reprofit is good for me? They are not very optimistic about natural IVF, and I am so scared to go abroad for EC after what happened to me at one of the best London clinics! I was even thinking of going back to Create but money wise it's just too expensive.


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## Nikki1979

Thanks for all the responses. 

I have my next appointment on Friday - AF is due on Thursday so I think I will give the pills a miss this week and just ask her next week. 

Jazz - the brand I am taking is called black pearl. She told me to take 15 pills 2 times a day. There are 200 pills in the box which should last me roughly one week. I have started keeping myself warm and wearing socks and booties in the hse. I wish I had listened to my moms advice when she told me to keep my feet warm all the time. 

Vonn - I got my antibodies checked in June and it came back negative. My last test results were as follows:
TSH - 0.83
Free T3 3.7 (Lab reference range 3.1 - 6.0)
Free T4 22.9 (Lab reference 11.0 - 21.0)

My FT4 is over the limit and my FT3 is still at the lower end of normal. I asked my endo about it and she said you want your FT4 to be higher as that's what the baby uses and she said that most people have low FT3s. Didn't make sense to me but just went along with it. 

I have an appointment with a fertility specialist on November 20th - lets see how it goes. If all fails, I will start my IVF journey in Feb next year. 
We have 2 days off as its Melbourne Cup day. Will try and catch up on each of your individual journeys when I have time.


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## Nikki1979

Vonn - I agree ttc is so frustrating. Ideally we shouldn't know the amount of stuff we do about ttc, that's what doctors are for when but when are faced with infertility, we have no choice but do our own research. 

Remember my mom telling me not to have sex before getting married as you will get pregnant. Well mom, I wish it was as simple as that!!


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## nobump

How long can the tea last in the fridge? I got a batch of herbs I boiled up on Monday think the solution would last the week. Was back at acu yesterday. But had been bleeding heavy so he had made another batch of herbs for me.... he said to use thesr from now. 

As I am paying 35 a time for herbs I was annoyed. ... back next Saturday but figure I will still have some tea left from first batch... will it still be ok to drink?

Acu session was good but herbs are a pain. ...

Sorry to post and run will comment more tomorrow x


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## Blythe

*No Bump* - these guys say around a week in the fridge

https://www.bodymindspirit.ws/chinese-herb-explanation/

*Briss* - I totally understand your desire to have your own child using your eggs and your DH's sperm. It is surely the most natural thing in the world to want that. I'm sick of hearing women being urged to use DE....i posted somewhere when i had the failed fertilisation and the ex-fertility doc answered and said to go ahead with IVF again but only with DE...to do otherwise would be a waste. They did not use those words but that was the gist. I thought no.....i don't want to do this with someone else's eggs. 

Listen to your own body and what you believe in and bollocks to everything else. You are not old, sod those bloody stats, your eggs are fine and you just need the right support during a treatment for it to work and get the right sperm to where they need to be. I still pray that you can do this without treatment and your much deserved miracle happens. In the meantime, you need to feel positive about the clinic you are going to use......it is a simple yes or no. If no, explore other options......

your baby is coming :flower:


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## Briss

*Nikki*, your thyroid results look fine to me. 

*nobump*, are you taking raw herbs? I recall Dr Zhai's recommendation was that I cook them daily but she provided a separate pack for cooking each day, it was quite time consuming cos I was boiling them first and then sort of steaming in the oven for an hour and made just enough for two cups: morning and evening. 

*Blythe*, thanks! you always understand me. I know why clinics are so insisting on DE and am immune to that (I am usually able to ignore it) but was very surprised to hear this from fellow TTCers. Having thought about it I think that women who moved on to DE may not be sure themselves and maybe wanted some reassurance that this was the right move and that's why they were trying to convince me while in fact they were trying to convince themselves&#8230; it hurt anyway. At least at reprofit they do not really try to push DE at you. I finally got a response and very pleased that the doc understood what was my issue with cetrotide not working, she said we should try natural first time (only trigger is used) and as a next step she actually suggested long protocol which works better to ensure maturation process is uncompromised by early ovulation. as far as I know there is no cetrotide on long protocol so who knows it may work. but I still want to try a few natural cycles before going back to stims. 

re diet, I was doing so well and then something just clicked yesterday and I could not stop myself, consumed something like 1,700 calories which is what I am suppose to eat in 2 days. not surprisingly was very disappointed at weighing in this morning. I was very close to losing my IVF weight but it's been pushed back by quite a bit by my yesterday's overeating. am back at it today. weekends are just too hard for me

I ventured into that shop in Queensway yesterday and got some sauerkraut! It turned out to be German and was quite sour. I definitely tried it before but it was probably either Russian or Polish and it was much sweeter. so I added some sugar! the disappointing bit is that I did not stop there, I also bought lots of chocolates and poppy seed pastry (which is what drew me into that shop in the first place)&#8230; and various kefir type of drinks which are healthy but too many calories.


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## Briss

here is an interesting article on how to deal with hunger while dieting - https://www.naturalnews.com/003550_appetite_control_food_cravings.html I still think that tiny pieces of chocolate and herbal teas throughout the day work much better for me than anything else. but I really like to try the number 3 - instant banana pudding, although soy milk is a lot of calories in my books, also not sure guar gum powder and xanthan gum powder are at all healthy choices. I've never heard of stevia powder as the sweetener, apparently the brown one is all natural. need to do more research to understand if this can affect fertility in any way.


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## alison29

I love stevia and thought it great then read some opposing articles. Let us know what you find briss. Regular sugar makes me crash and I like sweet I thought stevia was the answer I use it a lot.


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## Briss

alison, looks like white stevia is definitely a no but brown may be, will report later.


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## Briss

re stevia, basically the story is that in Paraguay and Brazil, women used the Stevia as oral contraceptive, drinking daily syrup from the leaves. There have been lots of research and one confirmed this but was later discredited as they used too higher doses for it to be conclusive. At the moment it looks like the general conclusion is that the contraceptive effects are of remote possibility, possibly only with extremely high concentrations, much beyond of the maximum necessities for daily use. I also read a few comments from women who due to health reasons had to only rely on stevia for years and yet got pregnant (one even with triplets!). having said that, we are already in the category of those who find it difficult to get pregnant so I'd use it carefully. but to be honest, i think white sugar is far more damaging to fertility. I may get some of the brown variety and mix it up with my fruit sugar. I only use it for coffee on weekends anyway.


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## kits

Hi ladies,

I was reading the papers at the pub when I came across this article on the daily mail. I found it so hopeful that it made me teary eyed.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...hinese-herb-mother-s-4-year-battle-babay.html

Lots of love & hugs


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## Briss

thanks! interesting article, though not sure I can hear any more about wheatgrass shots or maca powder... none of it works. and I do not want to add up how much I spent on IVF, Chinese medicine, vits etc in the last 4 years. it will make me sad particularly cos who knows how much more to come :( that woman was lucky to get pregnant on her 3rd IVF, I got intra-abdominal bleeding on my third :(


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## kits

I know Briss, and I'm sorry if it had a negative impact. I just get excited when I hear about TTC struggles with success in the end. Wish you didn't have to go through so much pain.

I'll always have so much hope for you all.


Wishing you the very best.


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## Briss

*kits*, thanks! I used get a lot of inspiration out of these success stories but this has long gone probably because I've tried all that and none of it worked for me. It does not mean it wont work for others, I hope it will. in fact I recently come across a lady who had several failed IVFs but in the end got pregnant naturally after a few months on TCM with Dr Zhai! I've obviously been treated by Dr Zhai and did not notice any changes but clearly others get lucky. 

The sad thing is I remember distinctly that one of the first posts I read on B&B years ago was from a desperate woman who listed all the things she'd tried over the years and how none of it worked. I remember feeling so positive about my chances and thinking that there is so much I could try and do and surely something will work but here I am, I have probably tried everything from her list already 

btw, my weight is still there, I was doing so well at the beginning but then I just found it hard to stick to my calorie limit so it all went back but I have a feeling that my dieting is affecting my progesterone levels because my temp has been super low for TWW last few days and today I started feeling pre AF cramps which I do not usually get until my later in TWW. Although I do hate the way I look after that last IVF, I think I need to stop because I am just torturing myself for nothing. I either need to be really serious about losing weight and doing it fast so being very strict about it and probably go down to 700 calories a day for at least a month, or give up and just eat properly. I am doing about 900-1000 a day and it's just not doing anything for me


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## nobump

Briss you are making feel guilty, I need to loose some weight, but find it harder in the winter due to the cold and dark nights, make you want to stay home and comfort eat. 

I am doing raw herbs, the acu guy gives me enough for a week in a big bag, I boil these twice, first with 6pts, second with 3pts, and store the cooled tea in the fridge and then micro before use. I have noticed a change in the taste with the new batch of herbs, not sure if has helped or not, but had been bleeding through super tampons in 3 hours on Friday/Saturday and under 2 hours on Sunday, but things have calmed down now, but that could be as I am now CD6, hoping to stop before the weekend... going to phone for blood results tomorrow, but think I should maybe go in and speak to a doctor, still feel as if I have no energy, not sure if iron tablets I have been prescribed are doing any good.

I don't think I will be eating much today though feeling bloated, think I over did the red wine and bread at the weekend... was at a 40th, had a good time, once the pain killers kicked in and I started drinking wine! On the back of a week of hubbies 50th celebrations, I think I will be going back on the Wagon, have wedding reception in a couple of weeks but think I will be sensible there...

Blythe, ankle weights sound like a good idea, sadly I think they may end up in the pile of things I don't use... have you tied Maka Root, I think I have some in a cupboard, think I might make some soup and sneak some in, it is supposed to be good for both male and females, trying to get hubby to do anything is impossible!

Wish everyone else well.


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## gingmg

Hi ladies- this may just be another fad diet- but it might be worth looking up. My mom just lost a bunch of weight on ' the fast metabolism diet'. She was thin to begin with, so I'm surprised she was able to loose as much as she did. Its a 28 day eating plan, and its actually a lot of food that you eat. Supposedly its the combination of certain foods together that jump start your metabolism. You have to eat every 3 hours and the book outlines your diet for the 28 days. The problem is that it can be expensive to follow because a lot of it comes from natural food stores. Its a preservative free plan, no alcohol, and no dairy. My sister in law is loosely following it and still loosing weight. I was thinking of looking into it at some point when its safe for me to start loosing weight. I don't know much about it, other than my mom just lost a bunch of weight on it and it seemed like she was always eating- it was all super healthy food though. Supposedly after the 28 days your metabolism is faster and you can go back to your normal eating- obviously within moderation.

Anyway, sending my love and best wishes to everyone here.


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## gingmg

The author of the book is haylie pomroy.


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## alison29

dairy has a lot of calories i am sure cutting that down helps immensley


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## alison29

Thanks kits! I love stories like this and having you ladies check in on us every once in a while. Makes me want to try wheatgrass for the energy if nothing else .


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## kits

I do check up regularly on what's going on in here, just don't like to comment as I don't want to rub anyone's nose in.

Always praying for you ladies.

:hug:


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## Briss

F*****!!!! Got the results from sex clinic and its herpes type 2 :( you can only get it from sex so its not what we thought. Waiting for a doc now and grilling my brains, I fear I got it from that same f***ing moron who got me pregnant 14 years ago :( apparently you can have it for years before you get symptoms. Just read it online but will ask the doc. I am so distressed at the moment. How can one unfortunate shorterm fling screw your life like that?? Not a month goes by that I do not curse that damn guy for what I had to go through, of cause I also blame myself for being so naive and trusting him.


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## terripeachy

Oh no, Briss!
That is terrible news, BUT, there are medicines to keep the flare-ups to a minimum, so it's not the end of the world, really. Just a crazy inconvenience. Are you still itching now, or it's all gone for now. So sorry to hear this update. I was hoping it was just an infection of some sort that would permanently go away.


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## gingmg

Oh no Briss, sorry to read this. Terri is right, there are meds you can take to prevent flare-ups. I hope this flare up passes quickly!


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## Briss

Thank you ladies! Still waiting to be seen, its taking ages. Diet is ruined, I need a cake! The second episode was actually quick, the tiny sore disappeared in a few days. If I did not get it from dh then I must have passed it to him?? Oh dear me, this is just terrible. Although I know he tested negative and I am quite sure he did not cheat. It must be me then?? But virus laying dormant for 14 years, is that even possible? I'm so confused.


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## Briss

finally talked to a doc but she did not seem excited at all, they treat herpes as something so trivial. to me this is like a life changing event, I am so upset but she was like it's nothing, you live with cold sore on your lips so why is this a big deal? and maybe she is right and it's not a big deal at all. anyway, DH could not have tested for herpes apparently cos you need to have an actual sore and he did not have those. this is free clinic so they do not test blood for antibodies cos apparently most of the UK population will test positive for either type 1 or 2 or both. she said I could have type 2 on my lips as well so could have passed it down there (for some reason I thought you get type 1 on your lips and type two down there but apparently it's all mixed up) or it could have easily stay dormant for many years. It just seemed so unfair to get it 14 years ago and only now see the sores after being in faithful relationship for so long. she was not surprised and said she came across women who have not had sex in 10 years and suddenly got sores down there, apparently from sex they had ages ago so I guess that's even worse. she warned me not to google this stuff (a bit too late I read quite a lot in 3 hours while I was waiting) apparently it's very misunderstood and there is a lot of wrong information out there. I am feeling a little more positive after talking to her but I still want DH to do the blood test to see what type he has and if he does not have type 2 we really need to be careful about BD cos I do not want to pass it on to him. my baby will be fine (you see how I phrased it? like it's a sure thing, words are so powerful you say it and then it happens) but when i get pregnant I would need to let midwife know cos there are precautions they need to take in the last few months before the delivery.


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## gingmg

Glad you got some answers. I hope this is your first and last flare up. Yes, your baby will be fine, they will make sure of it!


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## nobump

Oh Briss sounds like you have had a rotten day! Makes you wonder how it can lay dormant for so long. But it is good that you know now so that you can deal with it during your pregnancy.

I phone the doctors today to get my blood results, admin person said my FSH was normal, but made an appointment to see doctor next week. Not sure what next move will be, not sure if they are more tests, or next move is to go for a private consult. Will chat things through with DH.


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## Hope3

Briss don't stress, it only makes things worse. Being run down or emotionally stressed can trigger an out break.

Take Lysine and try not to get caught up in the whys & wherefores of how you got it. I've been with DH 4 years & he hasn't caught it. 

I was told whether you treat the sores or not they'll go in a week.


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## Blythe

Briss - i am glad you felt better having spoken to the nurse. it is incredible that it has stayed dormant for all these years - but certainly very good you are able to treat it now rather than having to deal with when pregnant.

I have found a sugar alternative that tastes like brown sugar and i am very very happy. it is:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Tiana-Crys...&sr=8-3&keywords=tiana+sugar+free+alternative

they sell it in H&B.

I have been listening to circle and bloom [C&B] podcasts [they are free] - a series she did called 'how einstein would get pregnant' - some are quite good and really its all about the mind body connection. My mind/thoughts had become so gloomy around TTC and my efforts in recent weeks have been geared towards getting fit and feeding myself with healthy foods and making permanent changes [hence being quite excited about above sugar discovery!]. I was quite tempted by the natural cycle C&B recordings but the woman voice slightly grates on me. could we make our eggs better quality by just thinking about it...willing them to be better! willing the sperm to go where its meant to go etc etc

There are other things out there so i will do some more digging. i will start with some healing meditations and see how that goes.

I am coming to the end of this cycle and have familiar pre-AF signs. its so upsetting to do double dose clomid so potentially having 3 eggs floating around and still nothing.


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## Blythe

gingmg - i just wanted to say hi and i am thinking of you during this exciting and very special time - i see you are 5 days away from your due date. :flower:


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## Briss

*gingmg*, I had no idea you were this close to the end of your pregnancy. how time flies! I hope everything goes well with the delivery and you will meet your beautiful baby soon 

re herpes, there are meds that can prevent flare-ups but apparently they only prescribe them in severe cases and mine is considered to be mild because there is every reason to hope that it's all fine now.

*Hope*, you are right about the stress provoking herpes outbreaks that's why I am so surprised I got it just now. I mean If I really got it 14 years ago, there were plenty of opportunities for it to show up before like about 5-7 years ago I was working sometimes for 48 hours straight with no sleep on a regular basis or 3-4 years ago when my father was in hospital for about 9 months I was in agony crying and praying in our office toilet every day for many months and was totally destroyed when he passed away &#8211; clearly immune system was down. I got chicken pox around that time but no herpes. why did it show up now when I am virtually stress free. I mean of course I am sad about TTC but compared to my regular breakdowns in the first 3 years of TTC I am holding on fine. Really not sure what provoked it.

I think you are right, even if you do nothing it goes away on its own. I read somewhere that the best thing you can do is forget about it completely, somehow it reduces the changes of it flaring-up again. Body-mind connection clearly. I am so pleased to hear that you did not pass it to your DH. I am hoping it's the same for us. Just to be on the safe side I asked for gonorrhea test, I am not sure but if I got herpes from that moron I wonder what else I got. I tested negative for the scary ones many time over in the last 14 years but could not recall ever testing for gonorrhea. I have to say I lost a bit of confidence with this diagnosis 

*nobump*, really good news that FSH was normal, hopefully they can recommend a new avenue for you to explore on the treatment front like a different protocol or something else. it's been two cycles since my last IVF so I am ready to start over. We are going with natural IVF next cycle. I am supposed to do a scan in London on CD9-10 (most likely 9 cos 10 might be too late as I usually O on cd 11) and then they will tell me when to take the trigger (I already got the prescription for pregnil but not sure yet where in London I can buy it with a foreign prescription but we will figure it out). If all goes well DH and I will fly to Brno a day before EC and Dh will stay for 2 days and I will stay hopefully until the transfer. 

*Blythe*, I am sorry you are in that part of the cycle again, these last few days before AF are just the worst. I really hope you are wrong about this cycle (implantation can easily start after 10 DPO) but I know too well the symptoms that eat up your hope. 

I was actually going to listen to circle and bloom podcasts but then completely forgot about them. Good idea. My mind is all over the place recently. 

I am very disappointed with myself for not being able to sustain my diet. I was doing well for about 6 days but then my motivation weakened and I gave in to cravings. Disappointing! obviously whatever I lost is back on. But now I am going to focus on my egg. I think my body starts working on the follicles from the second half of TWW the cycle before so avocadoes and proteins here I come. No more dieting, now it's all about egg quality. I am definitely buying that coconut sugar thing you recommended! sugars are really bad for eggs so I am cutting all refined stuff down practically to zero.


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## Hope3

Biology can be a real b**** sometimes.


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## nobump

Good luck for your new cycle Briss.

Blythe, sorry you think AF is on her way.

Gingmg, hope all goes well with your delivery!

AFM I had a chat with hubby this morning, think we will go for a private consult in the new year, want to take a break over XMAS and New Year. Just to see if there is any hope... if we do another cycle it will be in March, we have a weeks holiday in Feb, so want to get away to the sun, feel like we have not had a break this year with doing 2 cycles... have acu tomorrow, but really getting tired of taking the herbs, think I will stop not sure if they have done me any good.


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## Vonn

Briss--so sorry to hear about the diagnosis! Hopefully it won't be as much of a setback as you'd first thought. So glad to hear things a moving forward for the next cycle and that you are going with natural IVF. Having confidence in the plan will make a huge difference, I believe.

Blythe--thanks for all the cool & helpful links you post! I had never heard of circle & bloom, going to have to check out those podcasts. Sorry if AF gets you this month, but you are being so good to your body, I just have to believe it will repay you with a BFP someday soon.

All the way back to Nikki's post with test results--I personally think the Free T3 number is really important. And I don't think its okay for it to be on the lower end of the range. I don't believe I will have full symptom relief until my T3 is in the upper 3/4 of the normal range. But that's me. Do you have continuing symptoms? What med are you on?


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## Vonn

AFM--started a new herbal tincture thru my acu doc. It's by a company called Conceiveable. My acu place is doing a trial of it that I am a part of. There's an app that goes with it that helps you track your fertility rating. They have you report on a whole bunch of things about your menses, bbt, food intake, exercise, sleep, gastro, etc. Seems pretty cool.

Per the Making Babies book, I had a test for antinuclear antibodies (sometimes called FANA). Came back positive (low positive I believe). Not unusual for ppl with autoimmune disorders to have positive results. I don't know of any autoimmune diseases that I have. It'd make sense for me to have Hashimotos (thyroid), but antibody tests have come back neg on that so far (not 100% reliable though, so who knows). Anyway--has anyone else tested for that????

Also, heavy metal test results came back high for Mercury and lead so I have to detox for a few months & stop TTC. Grrrrr. I think everything is just not working well, liver included apparently. So toxics have built up. 

I go to dr on Tuesday, so hopefully more answers on all the above!


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## BBbliss

Briss, I'm sorry about your herpes diagnosis. I just wanted to ad a couple of things I know from experience. I've had it for 20 years! Got it from the father of my kids, he knew he had an out brake when he gave it to me, he was young and selfish of course, at the time I thought we'd be together forever so I didn't make a big deal of it but here I am 20 years later... It's been 15 years since that relationship ended and I never gave it to a partner, ever. Mine are very much just like yours, everything you described and its true once you have a break out it lasts from 7 to 10 days. Even if you think your husband has it you can't have sex if you think you have a blister, what happens is you can re-infect each other. You'll always have a blister on the same spot, but you can spread it to a different area and have a new break out spot. Once you become familiar with the symptoms you'll know even before you have one and that's the trick in avoiding an out break. You can get a prescription for Acyclovir 400/800 mg and take it twice a day at the first sign there's one coming. Usually a feel a pinch or tingle at the exact stop, and sometimes you can feel a small bump under the skin, if you take the pills soon enough you can avoid it breaking thru the skin and it goes away, but if the skin brakes then you have to just let it run its course. You can get acyclovir in a cream form and put it on it also and you may be able to cut it down to five days :( 

L-lysine and vit C can keep you from having then flair up too. You never know, maybe you won't have another for a long time but stress and hormones do affect them. 

Good luck and I hope you can get that prescription. I can't leave without it


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## Briss

Vonn, I am so surprised your test came back as high in mercury. Do you eat a lot of fish? I know cod liver oil supps were blamed for being high in mercury at one point but I think these days supps must be pretty clean. Where would you get mercury or leads?? Very sorry to hear that but makes me wonder if we all have higher level of one thing or another. Environment in modern cities is just not great. 

I'm doing a lot of visualising, imagining my baby in our flat, trying to see it very clearly and in detail things like where would he\she sleep etc. I don't know if its helping anything but they do say a baby needs to be able to fit into your life or smth of that sort you are basically trying to create a space for a baby in your life.


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## Briss

BBbliss, thank you! So very helpful! I asked for acyclovir but the doc would not give me a prescription. So annoying! She said they only give it in extreme cases. But I think I can get it on line. Would need to check. 

BTW, congratulations on being pupo. I was pupo only once but I loved it! I keep my fingers crossed for your little ones. So hoping they are getting comfortable in there :)


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## BBbliss

I know :) I just LOVE being PUPO :)

Don't listen to them LOL, get it on line! You need to always have it! I know that in Brazil and Mexico they just sell it to you without a prescription I'm sure it will be easy to get it on line. Good luck :)


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## Blythe

i had the most infuriating conversation earlier this week with a work colleague who is TTC her second and have just repeated it with DH.

she is currently on 3rd cycle and she generally appears to fall quite quickly but she said she would try till spring next year and then fit coil....she said something along lines of "i couldn't do what you have done. i couldnt go on with no end date.....'.

good luck with that!!!

YES thats right i thought to myself 4 years ago i will give it 4 heart fucking breaking years, and during that time i will look to disengage from all of my friends, interests and enjoyment of sex!!!!

fuck im angry...

i am also not pregnant and my period is due in 2/3 days so that could explain the explosive anger :growlmad:

i have made an appt for reflexology later today and depending on how it goes i may rebook and have a session every couple of weeks.

Vonn - im going to look for that herbal tincture you have...

i have never heard of people doing tests for heavy metals - whats your detox plan?


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## Briss

Blythe, I am so sorry you are feeling so down. Its impossible to talk about ttc to anyone who has not been at it for years, they seem to say outrages things without even realising it. Its hopeless. 

Reflexology sounds good though! Treat yourself to something nice and relaxing. You so deserve it. 

It annoys me so much that good people do not get what they deserve...


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## Vonn

People are so insensitive! Let's see in a few months time if that woman is ready to give up, or if, like all of us here, she begins to believe that her bfp is just around the corner.

Re heavy metals. Many of us probably do have increased levels of heavy metals in our systems. I don't know where the Mercury came from. Don't eat a ton of fish. Could be vapors from my amalgam fillings, which have Mercury in them. Some ppl have them removed. Just read about that. I'll have to ask my dr what she thinks.

As for detox, I had already started taking pecta-sol pills as my dr thought maybe this was a problem. Continue with those. She also said in the email to take one tablet of DMSA every other week. We'll see what else she says at the appt. I'm thinking I might want to do a food/drink detox, as well. Flush as much bad crap out of my system as I can.


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## Blythe

thank you Briss - this is why this forum is so important to me as i can vent. I do apologise for the blue language but it felt good to type it out!!

my reflexology was not really the real mccoy - she just gave me a vigorous foot massage and i had to point out thyroid, uterus and i had to ask her to do more than just the middle/kidney bit!!

still i felt better for it but i wont be going back for that. I have however made an acu appt but as soon as the receptionist started telling me about a woman who, just last week, found out she was pregnant just prior to IVF, i started regretting my decision to re-engage with these twits.

i am however ploughing through lots on podcasts and am finding some of what i am hearing very inspiring and i am thinking more and more about my body and its ability to heal itself....as well as the C&B stuff there is a woman called Jule Chang LAc with a series called 'Fertility Revolution' with a nice interview with randine lewis which i enjoyed very much today.


----------



## Blythe

Hi Vonn :flower: Yes i really did think i would be pregnant within 3/4 months and was full of excitement but the months roll on the darkness gathers. i would love to have extracted myself from this some time ago but the yearning to become pregnant is something too strong and far too emotional isn't it....although apparently not for my DH though who looked quizzically at the single line on pregnancy test earlier and said " i dont know what that means"...i felt like prodding it [the wet end] in his eye. 
PS - i dont usually test but i was off to a aerobic class earlier and i wanted to know it was ok to jump around.

i am going to look into heavy metal detoxing....i do still have the old fillings...oh dear! please do report back on what your doc says.

i am really trying very hard to eliminate bad stuff from my diet and i am doing quite well although struggling to knock wine on the head....although im not a lush [anymore!] and only have a 4/5 glasses at the weekend.


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## alison29

What an idiot! PMS does make me intolerant to this type of commentary too. Non pms me could think wow your an idiot and then forget about the conversation. PMS me another story.

Briss well done visualizing your baby in your life. I do this too. My problem is getting rid of the not fair feelings about being reproductively challenged I think they counteract the baby daydreams. Just try to stop the thought in it's tracks.


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## Briss

*alison*, My AF turned up last night as expected but as usual I spent most of TWW visualising myself pregnant and having a baby so when it turned up I was really surprised. I should not be really but you do tend to believe against all odds that maybe this time it will be different. I do not know why I find it so easy to visualise my family (up to 3 children!) in TWW, it might be because my body is sure I can get pregnant and it does not recognise we have sperm issue but quite often a few days before AF is due my body already knows nothing happened and then suddenly I become very upset and at times aggressively so. 

*Blythe*, how are you? I can see you started spotting, so sorry it's really annoying but I so want to hope this might be a good sign. 

I am still spotting pink at the start of AF so dilipam which I had in august is still working in keeping my cervix open, no brown stuff for months now. I am focusing on eliminating all crap out of my diet and trying to keep my blood sugar levels stable. Working very hard on ignoring my current weight and body shape. It's all about the egg now. Re-reading ZW's book on being healthy for pregnancy and while I do not agree with everything she says most things are very useful and she gives me motivation to quit coffee and sugar. today was my first day without caffeine and so far so good. DH also quit coffee so there is no one to tempt me now. 

I need to have my scan on Thursday but might already be ovulating on Saturday so I guess I may need to do the trigger on the same day and book my flights. It's happening so fast all of a sudden&#8230; I am very excited but a little scared. I guess I should arrive in Brno the day before egg collection, probably in the evening after work so I wont need to take a day off. 

I am considering the option not to have sedation at EC. any form of sedation has a risk so if you can take at least some of it away is great. I think if you are awake it gives you a bit more control as to what's happening and if something does not feels right you can immediately alert them. I am feeling brave to try it.

They also send me prescription for pregnil, the trigger. My Dh managed to buy it in our local pharmacy but it's just powder with no water. 

I am also going to try and have a few reflexology sessions or massage, anything to relax me. 

I do not think I can bare another story about a woman who TTC for ever and then got pregnant just prior to IVF. it can happen of course and I so want it to happen to us but these stories just do not give me anything positive.


----------



## Vonn

Briss--I think it is so amazing after the tough time you've had that AF can catch you by surprise. It breaks your heart for a couple days (at least for me it does), but the hope and resiliency shown by the visualizing you do--and perhaps more importantly the belief you have in your visions--is the reason you will get your BFP in the end.

And now you are nearly off to have your Czech IVF adventure. Fxed, fxed!! Can't wait to hear all about it. :thumbup:

Alison--I agree that banishing the negative thoughts is as important as thinking positive thoughts. Easier said than done, but keep working on it! Good for you for being that self-aware. Remind me of where you are at in the process/what you are doing. I can't recall. :shrug:

Blythe--Sorry to see the witch got you. Hope you are doing okay. Keep taking care of yourself, it will pay off. Have you been back to acupuncture yet? :flower:

AFM--I had my dr appt. My dr wasn't too concerned with my heavy metal levels. She added a couple detox pills, but otherwise felt like I had already started the detox process by starting pecta-sol awhile back. 

I had high levels of a couple things that she was surprised by. My rubidium was high, but it is apparently not very toxic. My copper was also very high. She is going to look more into that. I've been googling and got myself a little freaked out. Of course there are connections between excessive copper and candida (systemic yeast) overgrowth and underactive thyroid--both of which I have. 

There's just this wicked web of not-so-great in my body. I hope I am now attacking all of the problems & won't have some additional weird thing come back in a test result that requires more pills or dietary adjustments or awful tasting TCM herbs. :wacko:

I made an appt right away to go to a new fertility clinic and start that process over in a much more thorough way. Gonna demand an hsg, post-coital cm testing, check for natural killer cells, etc, etc... I've learned so much in the last year! I go in next Tuesday. Can't wait. :happydance:


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## alison29

Good luck with all the testing Vonn. Keep us posted. Nothing much to report here. My dh doesn't want to do fertility treatments again (have had one other pregnancy from iui injections 6 years ago). Had a lap over a year ago and everything looks good to go. So who knows what the real problem is. NO PCOS or anything like that.


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## alison29

Where do you think the copper came from? I know old pipes are a cause is this the case for you do you think?


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## alison29

Good luck Briss! Fingers and toes crossed. Way to go with the diet! I am still on decaf tea which has some but it's not too bad most days.


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## Briss

my cycle has started really badly, got one of those terrible headaches and been vomiting on and off, can't even hold down my painkillers (and I do not usually take painkillers at all but it's been two days!). Could not go to work cos I couldn't even master 2 min walk to the tube station without vomiting :( I am worried it's something to do with my hormones, maybe even FSH cos it always happens at the start of my cycle.

the good news is I guess I was so poorly that it was not hard at all not to have any coffee for 2 days!!


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## Vonn

alison29 said:


> Where do you think the copper came from? I know old pipes are a cause is this the case for you do you think?

I don't think my dr knew much about excess copper. Just like with all my stupid issues, no one knows what the cause is. Could be pipes. I also read somewhere that birth control pills have copper in them and I was on those things for about 15 yrs. It's probably a combination of things and also a result of my body just not working very efficiently.


----------



## Blythe

Briss - how is the new eating regime going....are you managing to eliminate the bad stuff and get plenty of the stuff that our eggs love?

I wanted to ask how much COQ10 are you taking? are you on the solgar ones?

I cannot believe that you will be flying off soon....if you don't mind i would be interested to know how much you end up paying for flights [and hotel]. I have worked out that a full stim cycle abroad is not an option for us due to work/other commitments at home which make it unviable for us financially but a natural cycle may well be.

i am sorry to see you had such a horrible start to your cycle. do you get that most months or just recently?

glad to see you are reading books about preparing for pregnancy......as you are and you will be. I have been immersing myself in guided fertility meditations and purchased the natural cycle Circle and Bloom recordings....i have to say i am rather enjoying them and her voice is just fine. i listen to them before i go to sleep and find myself drifting off to sleep hoping that it is still working on the subconscious level still. 

There is another woman who runs a site called molly nichols who runs mindbellyconnection.com and that is the same sort of stuff. I signed up on site and received 3 free recordings which were quite inspiring in some parts.

My DH is either cycling or drinking and im tired of arguing. i gave him a mini reflexology treatment this week focusing on fertility. the fact that i am prepared to massage a grown mans feet demonstrates the lengths i will go to to become pregnant. i intend doing a mini treatment 2/3 times per week...you never know!!! i will also do my own.....since my novice foot massage last week [it was nothing like a reflexology treatment] my left foot has swollen quite badly on inner ankle and is actually quite painful - i think she has maybe done something bad to a vein. i hope it goes down soon. 

i am having an acu treatment tomorrow - with a new doc so we will see. i may start having acu again but wont bother with the herbs. I just dont think the herbs they stock in my place are that great.

i am still starting my day with braggs ACV and lemon juice and later in the day having a shot of powdered greens and MSM.


----------



## Briss

today, I was not very good, had coffee (just one cup, not as strong as as espresso) and a pastry. so much for cutting out the crappy foods :( that headache ready threw me

I am taking 400 coq10 and 100 ubiqunol, I take nature's best brand and give DH solgar, mainly cos solgar is not black. it's just a way to fool him. for some reason he decided against coq10 and he knows mine are black colour so whenever he sees black pills in his mix he complains and takes them out. Solgar brand is beige so he does not know what they are and does not raise any objections :) 

I get headaches on CD 1-3 from time to time but a few times since last year I had these terrible headaches with vomiting for 1-2 days and nothing helps 

I will give that mindbellyconnection thing a try. sounds inspiring. 

I am seriously impressed with you giving reflexology treatment to your DH!! I was thinking about it and never really got down to it. I think this is a really good idea. So hope it will pay off. I am also glad you are doing acu again, I really think it helped with your previous IVF

I am off to look for a cheap reflexology place nearby


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## Blythe

Your comment re your DH taking out the black tablets made me laugh - men can be so like boys!!


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## Briss

I know, so silly! 

anyway, I found this tiny Chinese place, they do not speak a word of English but what does it matter. it's relatively cheap about 45 for an hour of reflexology. I was kinda expecting to relax for an hour, how naive was I! the word "pain" does not come anywhere near to describe what I've experienced. I was in agony! it felt like she was crashing my bones and at one point I almost cried :) I was surprised to discover I still had some feeling in my feet once she was done but I totally understand your swollen feet situation. my right foot is swollen but I do not think it's veins I think it's the bones :( a bit painful to touch.


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## Blythe

Did she do the top of your feet?


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## Blythe

Just has a horrid argument with DH (again) where he accused me of talking about TTC every day and he has had enough. He said it's not just me that has to deal with it and it gets to him too. But that's crap because if it was he would not be so cruel and actually talk to me instead of barely nodding. 

Anyhow, it has resulted in me indulging in crisps, choc cake ( made by me :) and a delicious bottle of Sancerre. I have a new favourite past time.... Grey's anatomy. I might be the only person Nit to have watched it.....I'm just about to start series 3!!!!! I love it.


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## Briss

not really but the main focus was on the sides of my feet, she was sort of trying to straighten them. she used her knuckles rather than her fingers so it was rather painful but I still enjoyed the experience and my feet felt really light after that


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## Briss

Blythe, I am really sorry about your argument with your DH, men just don't get it. My Dh has been involved, I mean really on board with TTC only for about 9 months and he already had enough, he keeps telling me things like "just get pregnant already" :( I also eat chocolate, even when I am not upset...

p.s. am on 2 series of desperate house wives


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## Blythe

i used to love DH....Terry Hatcher is quite irritating. The woman who narrates it, the one who is killed is actually a very well known fertility yoga expert. She also plays Bobby Ewing's wife on the new [and fabulous Dallas!!]

i had acu today with a new doctor and he told me my pulses are weak as is my kidney function....im sure i have heard that before!!!!!!!

still i really really liked him and he gave me a wonderful head massage afterwards. I have booked 6 further appts with him and i am taking Bu Zhong Yi Qi Tang...its powdered but premixed so 15 for a couple of weeks which is a figure i can swallow :)


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## Briss

I am glad you are doing acu again, I totally understand how annoying it is to hear about your kidney function over and over again but to be honest I do not think it's true, you produced so many eggs, surely your kidney function is absolutely fine. something is not working between your eggs and your DH's sperm but your eggs are not to blame, for your age you are super young. 

I used to hate desperate housewives, I could not understand how anyone could find it interesting to watch but am onto 3rd series :) clearly I changed ... I really like the Mexican couple, their relationship remind me of my Dh and I, all that arguing :) also their dramatic TTC story although not at all like ours still at least it was not easy for them.


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## Blythe

Briss - have you made plans for CR yet or waiting till after scan to book flights?


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## Briss

Blythe, I cant really book anything until I know when EC is going to be, it's a bit of a mess to be honest. I am not feeling positive at all. I booked my scan for Thursday afternoon. they did not ask for bloods but I want to do them as well cos I am quite sure they can get a lot more information from my LH levels. I am thinking that I am likely to trigger on Thursday as well but obviously who knows. also it seems to be only ryanair that flies directly to brno and prices go up every day, booking the next day flight might cost us a lot. also I cant book the return cos I have no idea if they can get the egg etc etc so I may have to go back on the same day if EC is not successful. basically I am trying to keep calm until Thursday and will be booking hotels on a day by day basis. 

diet wise I think I am good, eating my proteins, whole milk, greens, whole grains, a bit of chocolate but mainly stuffing myself with nuts if I crave chocolate, no coffee today. still, I have diarrhea and constant mild headache. I started new solgar female multi vits and their Alaskan salmon fish oil which might be responsible but I am not sure. I am still fighting for this cycle but it just feels like nothing goes right and the first few days are the crucial ones for FSH/egg development so not feeling good about the whole thing.


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## Blythe

Well done on the good intake - that sounds great and double well done on the coffee front!

i had that alaskan fish oil - its the best. 

all you can do is deal with it one day at a time i suppose. i am terrible without a firm plan in place...i would have been a rubbish hippie. Having been overdosing on fertility meditations in recent weeks one of the things i take away from it is acknowledging my feelings and not trying to change them....particularly when they are negative. for example, when i hear about a pregnancy i feel really sad and jealous. So instead of feeling bad about that i just sit with it without any judgement until it goes.

if you are feeling negative about this cycle i don't think that will have any impact on the result....so don't sweat about that. Just focus on the practical stuff. Quite frankly trying to be positive about this stuff is exhausting - you may find that feeling negative is placing far less stress on you and your body can just focus on getting you pregnant...

Have you had to make any payments up front to the clinic or is it all done on day of EC?


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## Briss

there is a question of STD tests, payments, consent forms which I do not know how we are going to go about. I did not get any answers yet. 

I found a new TTC friend! she is 42 and suffers from recurrent mc. it was so unexpected, she is my business partner and we were having our usual lunch but somehow the subject matter changed and moved to her mc and that's how I found out that she TTC (and her age! I was sure she was in her late 20s) so the legal stuff was immediately forgotten and we only talked TTC :)


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## alison29

Briss the headache maybe be the coffee (lack of). Good luck this weekend. I haven't had much to say lately but i have been reading. It must be hard waiting until the last minute to plan the trip. Good job with diet!


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## nobump

Good luck with your cycle Briss. Its good you have a new buddy. 

I too have been reading but not posting. This cycle is a big fail DH has been unwell so missed O this month. Did noticed increased CM not sure if down to Chinese herbs. Have switched to tablets might use raw herbs just before AF to help with heavy bleeding. My GP is referring my for the heavy bleeding.


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## Blythe

No bump - have you had any noticeable changes since starting ACU and herbs? Any improvement in mood, skin etc etc. I have started herbs and ACU again and am always interested to see if others benefit from it. 

Are you bring referred to local hospital for the bleeding?

Alison - hi:flower: hope you are well. Are you pre or post ovulation?

Briss - it's great that you have found someone to talk to about this stuff. I hope that you will both be able to talk pregnancy stuff soon. I will look forward to your post scan update and have everything crossed that everything is as it should be and you can go and get a lovely big healthy egg retrieved.


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## alison29

Hi Blythe I am post ovulation. I got my surge friday morning. Bd thursday night and sat morning so that is good. I started taking vitex about 3 wks ago. My ov date moved from 15 to 14 this cycle so it's doing something


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## alison29

We'll see if it does anything else. Are you still doing your smoothies? I am sorry to hear dh is being a turd as far as health. My dh goes thru those phases too. Not the cycling yet but maybe it will be hottubs or something. His thing is coke zero and rum. I thought about your reaction to pregnant women today when i walked by one and I have to admit my reflex is to think something negative/mean about the person. Which i know isn't fair at all they did't cause my problem! Need to work on that!


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## alison29

No bump do you think it could be something blood thinning in the herbs causing the bleeding? Are you taking baby aspirin or anything?


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## Blythe

Alison. Good bd timing. I have everything crossed for you. Would you consider another iui? I have been thinking about it. 


I used to feel bad about my reaction to pregnant women. It just makes me feel terribly sad about my inability to get pregnant. 

I got home from work today and massaged my feet (uterus, ovaries and Fallopian tubes points). I then massaged my tummy with caster oil and I'm about to go and do a fertility meditation so feeling quite focused although have not dropped caffeine. I'm being quite good with everything else though so as long as at least 70% is good stuff then I won't beat myself up.


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## nobump

Alison I bleed heavy because of my thyroid. The herbs could be thinning the blood. Been prescribed new meds can't remember the name but think all they'll do is make md clot more.

Blythe I to have negative thoughts when I see pregnant women. The cleaner at work is expecting twins heard her talking to someone else. But manage to cut her attempt to talk to me about it short. Think hearing her chuck up in the toilets was enough.


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## alison29

I would consider an IUI but dh wouldn't. I would do IVF if he would. He just thinks if it happens it happens if not oh well. He is pretty happy status quo but the no birth control is a compromise for us. He has no idea how much i think about this. I am not off caffeine totally yet either. I have been doing decaf teas and even a decaf coffee this morning. It wasn't that great either but i know the brand i bought as 9 mg per cup plus the peanut m and ms i ate. 70% is good Blythe I used to be a 20% person lol now i think i am 70% good too.


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## alison29

I have heard great things about castor oil too. Do you massage it in and leave it? or use heat oo?


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## nobump

Blythe think thd acu is helping to relax me more. But think everything that has happened this year has changed my view on things.


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## Vonn

Hi all, I've been reading but not posting here lately. 

Briss--Curious about how things are going. Thursday's come and gone for you, right?

Blythe--Hope the reflexology & acu are going well!

Alison--Fxed for this TWW!

No Bump--You get heavier periods due to a thyroid problem? Low or high thyroid? I have low and my periods have gotten lights. I hope acu works for you! I feel good doing it, but haven't noticed any major improvement, other than enjoying it.

AFM--I had an appt with a new dr on Tuesday and have been grumpy ever since. I promised another thread I would not rant about this anymore, but I'm curious about your thoughts as LTTTCers. Maybe you've heard some of this before? How do you handle drs like this--find someone new or cultivate the relationship and try to bring them along to your way of thinking?

She came in and tried to recap my situation after having "glanced" at what records had come in--she got things wrong, hadn't noticed that my DH's SA was included, etc. That drove me crazy!!!! Such a bad first impression. Would it not have been kind and insightful of her to ask me to talk about myself and what was bringing me in??

Then she went on to totally blow off BBT, which also makes me crazy. 

She also said she wouldn't bother to test my progesterone because I do not have a perfect 28 day cycle with ov on day 14. I've read multiple places elsewhere that if you don't ov on day 14 you should just get your progesterone checked at 7DPO. What do you ladies think about this?

She also shut down my interest in bringing up certain tests I would like to have done (per Making Babies book). When I mentioned there were other things I'd like to have checked, she "We can talk about that later."

She wasn't totally off her rocker and did want to have FSH, AMH, Estradiol checked on day 3, do an HSG on day 5-9, and follow a cycle through with ultrasounds to check follicle development and lining thickness. I'm totally for all those...and about 10 other tests.

The problem is that I was really excited about this appt, next steps and all. She just let the air out of my tires & left me really deflated. I'm so afraid that I have no time left, so for someone to balk at (actually, not even entertain consideration of) checking into things that would not be difficult to test, makes me both furious and incredibly sad. 

Sometimes I don't know how to handle my emotions. This is just so emotionally exhausting. But I can't walk away because if I do I don't get a baby. That's how I feel & why one so-so dr visit can upend me.


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## nobump

Think I keep typing wrong thing I have a fibroid.

Vonn your doc seems to wamt to do half of the blood work. But can't see why not day 21 test. But doing the ultrasounds will let you see what is happening. Is this private or nhs?


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## nobump

Think I keep typing wrong thing I have a fibroid.

Vonn your doc seems to wamt to do half of the blood work. But can't see why not day 21 test. But doing the ultrasounds will let you see what is happening. Is this private or nhs?


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## Briss

*Vonn*, I feel for you. what a disappointment! I was annoyed even reading about your experience I cant imagine how frustrating it must have been for you. Of course you should check your progesterone on day 7 after O, it does not need to be day 21 cos not everyone ovulates on Cd14. I ovulate on day 11 most cycles. so for me CD21 is when my progesterone starts to go down before the AF and it's around CD18-19 when my progesterone peaks. But it looks to me as if your doctor wanted to do all the tests all over again so she could judge for herself. maybe not a bad thing, she requested all the main ones so hopefully once she does cycle monitoring she will see what's going on after O and actually progesterone test is usually included in cycle monitoring.

*afm*, we are flying to Brno tonight!! will be my first time with Ryanair. I had my bloods and scan yesterday and all points towards ovulation even though it was only CD9. I was a bit afraid the doc would think it's too early and decides to wait but I am pleased she interpreted the resulted in the same way and asked me to trigger last night for egg collection tomorrow morning. interestingly, I have two decent follicles: dominant on the left over 18mm and a runner up on the right (with no stimulation!!), that explains my high estrogen it was above 1000 which is a lot for day 9 and I was panicking thinking I have a cyst but having a second follicle can explain high levels of estrogen. 

I might be totally wrong here but I think I see a connection between sex drive and lining; I usually have high sex drive before O and my lining is closer to 13 mm by day 9. this cycle (same as last cycle) I have almost no sex drive and my lining was shockingly thin 9.5 mm, I mean it's probably sufficient for implantation but it's just so below what I usually see that it made me think it must be to do with sex drive?? I was trying to force myself to orgasm to bring more blood to that area but with no sex drive it's just pathetic! I am beginning to understand how hard it must have been for DH to bring himself to BD on demand. 

anyway, I am keeping everything crossed but trying also not to get my hopes up as natural cycles are just unpredictable. If anything we will just have a fun weekend break in CR. I decided against endometacin, so hoping my eggy will stay put on its own until egg collection. We will stay in Brno until Monday even if things wont work out I want to try and have an appointment with them on Monday to discuss the next steps.

since I did not know if we are going up until the last minute booking flights and hotel cost us a lot more but it's still within reason.

I regret not taking EPO this cycle. I completely forgot about it, it could have been helpful in slightly delaying my O.


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## alison29

I hate to say it but is there another RE in your area? Is it possible to change before you get to far into testing?


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## alison29

Sounds great Briss! Good luck in Czech. I have the sex drive problem too. You may just be stressed that always kills it for me and dh.


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## Vonn

Thanks for the feedback, ladies! I think I will give it one more appointment and if she's not more responsive I will cut her loose.

RE sex drive: I have zero (thanks a lot, thyroid) & have had zero for years. It makes me sooo sad. And I feel like a horrible wife/partner. I believe I have actually killed my husband's libido, as well. So now we both struggle mightily, even though we desperately want a baby. It's really awful.

Briss--Good luck, my dear!! Two follicles developing without stims is amazing, and has to be some kind of good luck symbol! Check in when you can. Woohoo!


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## nobump

Briss that is fantastic news!!! 2 eggs not stims, makes me think that for some of us natural cycles may be better, something to consider in the future. Ryanair are not to bad as long as you play by there rules and don't exceed there limits on hand luggage etc.. we have flown with them a few time for a wee week in the sun.


Chocolate and raspberry leaf team are supposed to help with lining, I tied some of that last cycle, but I think my lining jumped by a 5/6 mm in a few days both cycles, I think I agree with your thinking on lining and libido.


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## Briss

A quick update, bad news - There were no eggs :( they found 2 follicles on the left and I had the collection with no sedation!!! Painful but quick. The doctor said it happens we do not produce eggs every cycle but a huge part of me thinks we lost my eggy. Ec was delayed a bit but I do tend to 0 early and its always an issue with me losing an egg. The follicle was still there but I did feel I ovulated and I even had a little cry before the procedure cos I was sure it was all over. Also last time there follicle was still in place but it had irregular shape and they were not sure if the egg was still there, that's why i think we may have lost it.

Anyway, we are meeting our doctor on Monday to discuss next step and in the meantime an having a well deserved coffee and a huge piece of local cake. I still can't believe I went through EC with no sedation or even pain killers!


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## Briss

One more thing to say (while I am still high on my cake :) ), they consider the cycle failed so they only charged 50 Euros!!!!


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## Blythe

Briss - oh no...i have been thinking about you all morning.....im so sorry you missed it this cycle. What a relief that they do not charge....i have to say how impressed i am that they only charge £50. That really is amazing.

well done on going through with the EC with no sedation - you are fantastic!!

I hope that you are able to come up with a good plan on what to do next at the meeting on monday. 

:flower::flower::flower:


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## terripeachy

I've been checking in and waiting to hear the news. So sorry you didn't have any eggs. How could they do collection with nothing there? Good thing they charged you appropriately but it's still so sad. Are donor eggs a possibility for you? I can't remember your/DH thoughts on that. It seems that may be the answer in your case.


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## Briss

Thank you, Blythe. I am still digesting the news and trying to understand what it means but I keep thinking about dovkav and that it took her 7 natural cycles to get that perfect embryo. I've been trying not to think about EC and just get on with the process but my fears caught up with me at about 4 am today, I woke up and was paralysed by fear and couldnt sleep, that horrible experience with the bleeding last time really got me. That was partly why I refused sedation - to be in control of the process. I'm bleeding little bit and the ovary was sore for a couple of hours but I am feeling fine as and walk normally which is a good sign. They do not give any antibiotics and did not do STD tests, I forgot even to ask about that. Its all very relaxed here. We waited for over an hour for EC and I was so stressed walking around the clinic with my slippers and a dressing gown (not the glemourous kind), people probably thought I was lunatic but I was really worried we were missing my egg and its possible I was nor worried for nothing. Anyway, we are off to try local beer, I actually think Czech beer was the main reason dh agreed to the whole IVF abroad thing :) I also booked an hour reflexology which us just 20 pounds here!


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## Briss

Terry, thanks! We will persevere with my own eggs, I might be wrong but I firmly believe in my body and deep down I just think that something is not working well for us but it will at some point. The doctor said EC is not that traumatic to the ovary so its perfectly fine to do natural IVF every month, if they let us.


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## nobump

Hi Briss sorry to hear you never got any eggs. That's fab. AAbout only being chart 50 euros. Enjoy your relaxation session. Enjoy the czech beer. After my EC I did have some bleeding afterwards but only a small amount. Can't believe you went through it without sedation xxx


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## Briss

we had another chat with DH about what happened and he was actually not too impressed with the clinic. he thought they were far too relaxed. he also noticed that the lady who did EC was not on the list of their permanent staff, so they seem to contract people from other placed for weekend work. it's hard to say but to me she looked like she knew what she was doing, very switched on. I am still bleeding little bit but bright red which is not great but there is no pain. I am just comparing it to my last IVF where By that time of the day I was already in terrible pain on my way to emergency while today we had coffee, went to a couple of breweries, I did a bit of walking and thai reflexology in the evening and I feel fine. but then again maybe the guy at CRGH was rough because it was tricky to get my eggs out and she was gentle but missed them? we'll never know. I keep re-reading Dovkav's journey for inspiration she also did not get an egg at her first natural IVF. DH suggested that we try Germany next month rather than going back to Reprofit. I am going to approach a German clinic for more info. 

Dh felt very uncomfortable at retrofit mainly cos they deal with donors and he was so afraid they will replace his sperm :) we did not even get to that point where he had to produce a sample but i have to say in London they ask your name/dob hundred times at every step while here no one ever asked that except at reception and also they did not even check my STDs, no antibiotics either. as i said, very relaxed

Could not stop DH, he is probably on his 5th pint now :(


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## Blythe

feeling confident about the clinic you are using is so so important isn't it...perhaps Germany is not a bad idea.

These guys are very responsive...

they quoted me the following for a full stim cycle:

IVF costs are 2500-3000 Euro plus medication (500-700 Euro), plus anesthesia (300 Euro)

I would be interested to know natural cycle costs though so please report back on findings.

Fertility Center Berlin
Spandauer Damm 130, Haus 14
14050 Berlin
Tel. 030 2332081 10
Fax 030 2332081 19
E-Mail: [email protected]
www.fertilitycenterberlin.de


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## Briss

Blythe, thanks! Has somebody recommended that Berlin clinic to you? Dovkav recommended one other clinic in Munich but the website is not in English, I wonder if I can still write to them.

My mind was wondering all night about where the egg gone. I don't understand how it works, I thought good estrogen levels were indirect indication of egg quality so how come it was empty? Also if my dominant follicles ovulated before (may actually be as little as 20-30 Min before EC ) why the smaller one was also empty? I also had about 5 smaller ones on that ovary. I mean body is not going to grow so many empty follicles?? So confused. I recall at crgh I had a pre EC scan at 8 am and as soon as they saw the follicle started to have slight irregular shape I was on the operating table in 10 min even then they could not be sure if the egg would still be there. I forgot to ask if my dominant follicle yesterday had any irregularity. For next time u am thinking of asking for EC as early in the morning as possible. An also going to take endometacin between trigger and EC and epo from CD 1.


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## Vonn

Hey Briss, so sorry to hear that the EC was unsuccessful. I'm not super familiar with how it all works, but I'm learning & it sounds like it's really an art and a science. So good to see it hasn't gotten you down and you are on to planning for the next opportunity. And thank goodness it didn't cost much, more money for the next one!


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## Briss

Vonne, thanks! I am obviously disappointed beyond belief but just trying to move forward as quickly as possible looking at the bright side and ignoring all the negativity. 

and just to add insult to injury - my herpes is back! wtf!! is this going to be a monthly thing? was trying to enjoy Brno but with all the itching it was hard. local pharmacies would not give aciklovir without prescription :( is it possible that shaving brings it about? I noticed that last two times it happened shortly after shaving, just wonder if this is related. 

I've contacted 3 German clinics and hoping we can make the arrangements either again in CR or in Germany for next month.


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## Blythe

Briss - I cannot recall how i came to email that clinic in particular....but i was impressed by them anyhow.

How did the meeting go today? Did it effect how your DH [and you] feel about the clinic?


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## alison29

Sounds like next time they should schedule egg collection earlier. I wonder just how much earlier you ovulate after trigger they expect 36 hrs right? That is really great you made it without drugs, i bet that cuts costs too. How was the beer?


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## Briss

Blythe, none of the German clinics responded yet. We had a meeting with our doc and she was quite positive actually. She was not defensive about our failure and just said that thus happens a lot in natural IVF, could be a fluke - empty follicle, even though my scan and bloods were very promising the follicle dus not look ruptured and the liquid from it was clear ( in case of early ovulation they can see traces of blood in the liquid) but even then early ovulation is still possible, the egg could have escaped minutes before they got there so this is just a side effect of natural IVF. She did not try to blame it on me or my egg quality, did not mention donors ( for which I'm greatful). She was so open to my suggestions on how to catch that egg next time which is great, although they do not believe in endometacin she is prepared to give it a go and also schedule EC for earlier like 8 am which may help as u tend to o early in the morning. She still thinks we could try long protocol, which we are considering. Byf they use milder form of down reg. Unfortunately t h their meds are not available in London so we bought all down reg meds in cr and are bringing it back just in case. But I'm more inclined to go natural again. My next o us very close to Xmas so I'm hoping we can somehow manage to fit one natural cycle before the bank holiday. 

I'm slightly regretting spending almost a year waiting for NHS cycle, I could have spent all spring as and summer in Brno doing natural ivf , oh well..


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## Briss

Blythe, none of the German clinics responded yet. We had a meeting with our doc and she was quite positive actually. She was not defensive about our failure and just said that thus happens a lot in natural IVF, could be a fluke - empty follicle, even though my scan and bloods were very promising the follicle dus not look ruptured and the liquid from it was clear ( in case of early ovulation they can see traces of blood in the liquid) but even then early ovulation is still possible, the egg could have escaped minutes before they got there so this is just a side effect of natural IVF. She did not try to blame it on me or my egg quality, did not mention donors ( for which I'm greatful). She was so open to my suggestions on how to catch that egg next time which is great, although they do not believe in endometacin she is prepared to give it a go and also schedule EC for earlier like 8 am which may help as u tend to o early in the morning. She still thinks we could try long protocol, which we are considering. Byf they use milder form of down reg. Unfortunately t h their meds are not available in London so we bought all down reg meds in cr and are bringing it back just in case. But I'm more inclined to go natural again. My next o us very close to Xmas so I'm hoping we can somehow manage to fit one natural cycle before the bank holiday. 

I'm slightly regretting spending almost a year waiting for NHS cycle, I could have spent all spring as and summer in Brno doing natural ivf , oh well..


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## Briss

Alison, clinics have different timescale for between trigger and EC, at create the had 35 hours but at reprofit its between 35 as and 37. But she said my natural LH could have peaked before the trigger ( which happened before) so its always hard to time EC in natural IVf.

We loved local beer and food!! Its superb and very reasonably priced. We spent a lot of time eating and drinking at starobrno brewery :) also Thai massage was fantastic, I had it every day :) overall I'm feeling OK considering the circumstances. Bring on the next cycle!


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## Briss

Alison, clinics have different timescale for between trigger and EC, at create the had 35 hours but at reprofit its between 35 as and 37. But she said my natural LH could have peaked before the trigger ( which happened before) so its always hard to time EC in natural IVf.

We loved local beer and food!! Its superb and very reasonably priced. We spent a lot of time eating and drinking at starobrno brewery :) also Thai massage was fantastic, I had it every day :) overall I'm feeling OK considering the circumstances. Bring on the next cycle!


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## Blythe

Briss. I think you needed to do that nhs round. Now you know the way forward that is right for you and the way that will bring you your baby. 

How much did you end up paying for the flight and hotels? Did you get a cab from the airport?

I have an spot with create but don't know what to do. I don't know if we could come back from losing another 5k but something is not working inside.


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## maquita2000

Did your IVF work?


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## Briss

*Blythe*, I totally needed to do that nhs cycle, I just think I should have cheated and gone for natural IVF abroad while we were waiting for 8 month! I DH had that hormonal treatment which I was so hoping would improve sperm and I was doing acu/herbs but in the scheme of things, I just think we need to go for IVF more aggressively in 2014. looking back just seems like a lot of time and eggs wasted.

I am so surprised at my temp. I still cant get it how is it possible to have the hormones in order and the temp rise every month and yet have empty follicles?? my charts look like properly ovulatory charts, how would I know which cycles are the empty ones? 

re Germany, the only clinic that responded so far was your berlin clinic. They cant do IMSI/PICSI and also if cetrotide does not work they suggest long protocol other wise they think our chances are very low. He did not answer any of my questions relating to fees so no idea how much this would cost. long protocol is an option but this is just so heavily medicated and the doc at reprofit said it's always tricky doing it abroad because with long protocol there is a great number of things that can go wrong well before we get to stims. also I think with long protocol they would go for higher stims and I am not sure I am ready for this. I know this natural cycle failed but it was so easy compared to stim cycles and I feel good to go again while after stims I was getting myself back into shape for 2 months and put on a lot of weight on stims. 

re cost we spent about 900 pounds on the failed cycle and most of it on flights/hotel. it would have been so much cheaper if we could book things at least a week in advance. also I booked an expensive hotel because I did not know how I would feel after EC and wanted a good place to stay. there are plenty of decent 3* hotels for 30-40 pounds a night. I know 900 pounds seems like a waste but we had a good break in Brno and at create we would have been about 3-4K lighter now but then again, if it was a matter of missing my egg in the morning I have to say Create was a bit more organised and CRGH were super good in catching that egg but they would cost us around 6K.

*12 Nov Natural IVF cycle cost:*
Pregnil: 25
Scan (ultrasound direct) CD 9: 99 (just one scan was required)
Bloods CD 9 (E2+LH): 60 (optional)
Flights London-Brno (2): 245 (booked last minute at higher price)
Flights Brno-London (1): 38
Flights Brno-London (1): 50
Hotel: (Barcelo Brno Palace, 3 nights) 264 (about 88 a night)
airport transfer in Brno: taxi 15 pounds each way (15-20 min)
tram to the clinic: 80p per person each way.
stanstead express: 48 (duo - return for two people travelling together)
EC: 50 euro for the needle (no eggs collected, otherwise 850 euro + PICSI 150 euro)

I had brown spotting after EC for 3 days, not sure this is good cos if we had ET I'd be really concerned, just something to raise with reprofit. St create I did not have any spotting after EC. a tiny bit of red blood after the procedure and nothing else. 

I definitely feel you should give IVF another try but I find it hard to recommend a clinic, I have not found a clinic yet where I would be happy with everything. Reprofit seems super nice and flexible but you should have seen me before EC, I was a mess, I felt we were loosing that egg and noone was doing anything; the time was of the essence and I was wondering around the clinic begging nurses to get me into that theatre asap. we got there at 8 but only had the procedure at 10! but then again it the follicle was in fact empty I had no chance to begin with


----------



## Blythe

Briss - Thank you so much for setting it all out. So helpful. I think £900 is good considering all done at last minute. 

Maybe another round with then but having an early morning er would be a good way forward. I did not like lp as it just fed my big cyst. 

I actually emailed a clinic in Prague earlier today as they have a sister clinic in London so I was hoping to monitor in London then fly over for EC etc. It begins with g but I will confirm name later. It will of course be more expensive this way and I just need to work out any savings against a cycle at create. 

I think you ovulated your eggs early rather than having empty folicles and I see you dtd 2 x in one day. Amazing!! I have had a strange cycle as I get an almost lh rise detectable around cd8/9 but for a dark line this morning. DH tried to dtd last night and just lost erection as soon as started. I was so upset as he cycled over 40 miles that day and said he was tired. We argued and he slept in other room. This morning I just cried and said how upsetting and humiliating it is to have to ask/nag for sex every month. It is fair to say it is no longer an enjoyable experience for either of us.


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## Briss

re dtd 2 x in one day, basically tamaxofen's effect is wearing off and Dh has little sex drive so BD is a nightmare again, so gutted! I had to go back to my old ways of quilting DH into BD he could not get excited and I really needed at least 2 BD to clear old stuff for EC so it was tough&#8230;. 

I am talking to German clinics now but it's a world apart from reprofit, they do not seem to have many clients from abroad or people are just taking two weeks to come over. I cant do that I really only need to be there for EC/ET and DH for just one day for EC. but these guys want to start with initial consultation??? after 4 IVfs I really do not need that I know what I want. 

I feel guilty for once again not going with my gut feeling and not taking endometacin and also not making it clear we need early morning EC. but at least reprofit agreed to do all that for our next cycle. problem is that everyone is closed from 25th and I may need to have ET on 24th&#8230; but I really cant miss this cycle.


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## alison29

Thanks Briss..IT sounds like you have a good plan for next month. Blythe my dh was like that too before he started taking clomid now he is doing much better but we are out of meds! I don't want to go back to that battle. I am waiting for an email from the online company we buy it from they have cashed my check for days ago and still no shipment. In addition to drive and functioning down there it has also helped him with the beer/food gut it's almost gone.


----------



## alison29

BTW your dh is a biking junky omg that is a lot of miles.


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## Briss

I am getting slightly disappointed with German clinics, Dovkav's clinic does not want to do a natural cycle before xmas and they want us to come for an initial appointment in mid Jan. They do not seem to speak much English at all so communication is hard. Your berlin clinic is not keen on natural IVF and they gave us 1% success rate and unless we are ready to do long protocol they suggest we "do a treatment in your country of origin". I have no idea where 1% came from but they are clearly not interested in taking us on. None of the clinics answered my questions about fees. There was another clinic in Munich which Dovkav recommended but they completely ignored my email, I think it's because it was in English. 

Annoyingly I am going to ovulate just before xmas and basically my ET day can be the last working day the 24th but I so do not want to miss my next cycle. I do not mind going back to reprofit but not sure they can do a cycle before xmas. 

I think I have heard about that clinic in Prague. There is a thread on FF. I may try them as well but travelling to Prague and hotel is going to be a bit more expensive than Brno. 

Interestingly, though Brno is such a tiny town compared to London and the clinic is smaller, the facilities are so much better than at Create or CRGH. we got our own waiting room while at create and CRGH it's a common room for everyone divided into cabins by curtains so you hear everything.


----------



## Blythe

I have contacted reprofit and the one in Prague and have agreed with DH that we will do one of those rather than create. We would save around 2k on full stim cycle. I would want to begin treatment in UK

Briss if you don't mind I have a couple of questions,,,,,

Where is best place to get scans in London?

If I start in UK presumably I have to pay UK prices for drugs.....wonder if worth flying over there to get prescription then buy them there? 

I could then fly out around cd10 and stay for around 7 nights. 


Alison - what is climid meant to do for sperm? Does it increase numbers?

I have been making myself a fresh raw kale salad every night. I will post link later.....it's delicious and amazing for you too.


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## Briss

*Blythe*, I am coping below my notes and responses of other ladies from FF on scans. I used ultrasound direct it's 99 per scan and I found them efficient. However, the lady who did my scan told me I had two follicles: one on each ovary while when I had an actual EC, both follicles were on the same left ovary. but in the scheme of things you only need to know follicles size and lining and that's not that hard. 

re meds, they are definitely cheaper in CR but adding flights and hotel to get there might add a lot to the cost, also this medication may not be readily available. in Brno, there were only two pharmacies that could potentially have that and one required at least 1 day notice and the other luckily had the meds but we waited half day. Brno's clinic pharmacy can also post your meds to the UK (which might be cheaper than buying it here). also with Czech prescription there are only a few pharmacies in London that can accept it and the prices go up for this service. let me know if I can post you some of my meds, I am not sure if I will ever agree to do a stim cycle again and by that time they may expire anyway. 

*scan in London: *

Rachel, have had all my recent UK scans done at the Birth Co on Harley Street, London:
https://www.thebirthcompany.co.uk/ultrasound-scans/gynaecology-scan/

baby bird - I get my scans done at ultrasound direct, and my gp did my bloods. It's worth a try? Even if he won't - he should be able to refer you to a walk in phlebotomy service who'd do them via the nhs for a small fee. 
https://www.ultrasound-direct.com/clinic-locations/london-harley-st/

Daisy: use my local fertility clinic, for all of my bloodwork, scans and hcg tests. They are the closest NHS fertility clinic to me, although I pay privately for the treatment. They just have a set package price for initial consultation, scans, writing prescriptions, and bloods to confirm hcg levels at the end of the cycle. The BEST part is that when you get pg, you are already in their books as a fertility patient, so once your pg, you just slot right into the system, so your six week scan is free, as once you are pregnant you become an NHS patient......no discrimination as your pregnancy is not classified as a private pregnancy and the little one growing inside is an NHS patient in their own right. This also goes for meds, as once I was pregnant, my progesterone and estrogen was paid for by the NHS, so it may be worth checking this out if you need any meds post pregnancy. I had a lot of bleeding issues and was scanned every two weeks in the early days, however as a fertility patient, I wasn't signed off into the mainstream pg clinic until the fertility clinic were satisfied that the pg was on going and that I was OK.

re clomid, it has the same effect as tamaxofen, increases male hormones and as a side effect sex drive


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## Briss

finding it really hard to deal with German clinics, finally called the Munich clinic and managed to book the initial appointment next week. for some reason you cant just start the cycle without it. the annoying thing is that they do bloods/scans all over again and charge about 1,600 euro for this appointment!! + flights to Munich and annual leave&#8230; having second thoughts but this was the only German clinic that offers IMSI. if I understood correctly natural IVF is 660 + 400 for IMSI which is not too bad but the initial charge is outrages unless I did not understand her correctly. they sent me forms all in German &#8211; how am I supposed to fill them in??


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## alison29

Blythe it is meant to increase sperm and testosterone.


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## Blythe

Briss - many many thanks.

I have decided on doing everything i can in London and then flying out around CD10-12.

My last CD3 bloods were taken in Dec 2013 so i think it would be a good idea to get that done ahead of new treatment plan.

I have had responses from Gennet [UK/Prague], Reprofit and GYNEM:

*City Fertility/Gennet *
Pros: can do everything at their london clinic in Farringdon and they consult directly with their sister clinic in Prague and i would then fly over for EC/ET. I am just waiting to see how much they charge for scans and meds. Initial consult cost is refundable and joint bloods/SA/Scan etc is £250. 

ICSI cycle would be £1575 not including meds

direct flights from Gatwick which is much easier for us

Cons: Prague more expensive than Brno for everything


From what i can tell the price for IVF at Reprofit is also around £1500 but im not sure if that includes the meds or not


----------



## Vonn

After listening to a Julie Chang/Fertility Revolution podcast (thanks Blythe!) with a maya abdominal massage practitioner, I am intrigued. I made a 15 minute phone consult with a local practitioner for Dec 5. Have any of you heard of this, done it before, etc??


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## Briss

*Blythe*, I am sure the meds are not included in the price. 

we are going to Munich but I am struggling to accept their ways, 1200 euros for the initial appointment?? have been filling in their forms in German all day today, I am exhausted! Will send them all my IVF history with all the test results, hopefully that would decrease the amount we have to pay cos together with the flights and hotel this consultation is going to cost us 2 Brno IVfs&#8230; but I am working to accept this cos they offer IMSI and cos I need to explore other options without losing any more valuable time. But I have to say that reprofit is just so much easier to deal with. I may look into other Czech clinics, they seem to understand patients from abroad better than German clinics. 

*Vonn*, do report back on the maya thing. I am curious


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## Blythe

Vonn - its quite difficult to find a decent video of it. if you can find a practitioner and then you can do it yourself! im so glad you listened to the podcasts - some are fab aren't they!

i have had abdominal massage from my yoga practitioner and it was very firm like the maya style. you can do it yourself by really digging in around your pubic bone but there was no prodding around my uterus. it can apparently help with blood flow and moving uterus into optimal position.

please report back :)

Briss - i am swaying towards Gennet - it is 1575 for ICSI and the scans i have during stimulation in London are included in that price so looking at:

drugs - 1000 - 1500
bloods - 330
pre ivf scan - 110
semen assessment - 100

so all in around £3115 and up to 1k for food/travel/hotel for 7 nights etc so around 4k mark all in which does not really seem too much of a saving. i am hoping i can shave some of it off with bloods etc and i have some progesterone left.

we have not been away for 3 years so it would be a nice break. i know create would be more convenient but they charge more for icsi and at Gennet they include assisted hatching which i guess is a good thing and something that create would, again, charge extra for.

im not completely decided....i still need to set out the reprofit costs and compare.


Briss - i am heartened to hear that your are happy with the CZ clinic's dealings with you. However, i am glad you have found a clinic that deal do IMSI.

i am massively impressed you have been sitting there translating all day - sehr beeindruckt!!!! 

i wanted to thank you as if it was not for you i would not have considered going abroad as a realistic option but now i feel good about it and like the idea of eating different food and being somewhere other than here whilst doing it!!


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## Briss

Blythe, re travelling I agree it does make it very different experience. travelling abroad, trying new things seeing different places, it took my mind away from the whole "no eggs" situation. I just wish I could have kept DH away from the beer... he is so excited about Munich, we even booked the flights for weekend so we could spend a couple of says there, I've never been there before. it also makes me feel better about the costs.

i think it's a good thing that London scans are included in Gennet's fees cos you will be paying at least 100 pounds per scan otherwise and in stim cycles you do have to have quite a few scans.

in London (and in Germany actually) you pay for every step, I was so surprised that they did not even charge for our follow up appointment at reprofit. 

I found Reprofit so much easier to communicate with than Create or CRGH. you have a direct email contact with your co-ordinator and your doctor so you discuss everything and get responses within 1-2 hours. at create I sometimes was calling 4-5 times before somebody responded and at CRGH you just leave a voicemail and hoping they will call you but often they do not. 

the Munich clinic is also responsive, they respond to my emails within 2 hours.

I was actually so scared going there for egg collection, I was awake at 4 am saying mental good-bye to everyone, it's like jumping off with a parachute for the first time but once you've done it you realise that actually it's fine. as I said I so wish I started this earlier. For some reason I was convinced that UK was leading in fertility treatments but I am not so sure now. 

my german translation was so funny at times, google translate rocks :)

I'd really recommend joining the FF thread for your chosen clinic, it helps to get a feel for the clinic and sort all the logistics. it can save money and time cos ladies have done all these trips before and know what works.


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## Vonn

I had my HSG today and good news, no blocked tubes. Yay! I also got results from day 3 tests. They didn't test estradiol, though. Grrr.

FSH = 10.5
AMH = .165

You ladies are so well researched, do you have thoughts/feedback/suggestions on these numbers?? :shrug:

Dr wasn't shocked by these, said they weren't great but pretty normal for my age. She mentioned I'd probably need some assistance next cycle (which I read as clomid, or some such thing). I go back in on Tuesday, cycle day 10, for an ultrasound to look at follicle development.


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## Briss

Vonn, that's great that your tubes are fine! your FSH levels are OK. AMH is a bit low but overall not bad, every chance to get pregnant naturally or with assistance.


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## Briss

I went to check my progesterone levels, still cant let go of the whole "empty follicles" situation and my levels for 9 PDO were 12.6 ng/ml &#8211; these are good levels, definitely ovulatory cycle. why were the follicles empty then? started reading cos I am ready puzzled I was so trusting the whole charting and temp rise thing, what if you can have a normal chart but still no eggs/ovulation? but I came across a very depressing study that says "Empty follicle syndrome (EFS) has been defined as a condition in which no oocytes are retrieved from mature ovarian follicles with apparently normal follicular development and estradiol levels, after COH for an assisted reproductive technology (ART) cycle, despite repeated aspiration and flushing. It is evident from a review of literature that &#8230;. about 67% of all cases are due to human error&#8230;" I think I can see now why they did not charge for the cycle&#8230;


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## Vonn

Briss--I'm not following exactly. So EFS is a real condition, but two-thirds of the time finding an empty follicle is not caused by EFS but instead by human error during the retrieval? If I have this right, how does it make you feel about possibly going back to that clinic?


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## Briss

i think it's not a condition as such but it happens and often it just happens once. sometimes it;s a true issue i.e. no egg but it seems like more often it's an error of stim protocol, trigger's fail (apparently it can get processed by your liver too quickly and not enough time for the egg maturity to take place) or simply a failure to retrieve. I am still not sure it was the case, I am more inclined to think I ovulated just before the procedure. I just can't understand how you can have good progesterone levels without an actual egg. can you ovulate an empty follicle/cyst with all the relevant hormones in place? 

re the clinic, I am more comfortable with this Czech clinic at the moment - I hope with endometaci and early EC we can get the egg next time.

our trip to the Munich clinic is going to cost a lot of money and it's even before they accepted us for IVf cycle so i am not happy about it and they do not seem to deal via email except for administrative things. but then again they may turn out to be a brilliant clinic. somebody told me they are considered to be the best clinic in Europe. a bit grand if you ask me


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## Vonn

Briss--That's a tough call. It's really hard at this point, though, to walk away and not leave any stone unturned. If you have the money and the time to try Munich, seems like it's worth a shot. Also, interesting to see how it all works in another country.

AFM--I went in for a CD 10 ultrasound today. Was fulling expecting to hear that my lining is scanty, follicle not very big, etc. Instead, I was told my lining looks "great," and that I have a "beautiful" follicle; actually, I have two follicles developing nicely in the same ovary. I was stunned! 

The dr wants me to have another scan tomorrow and if the follicle(s) is where they think it will be, I will trigger with ovidel tomorrow night for a Friday am ovulation. That would be CD 13 ov. Last month I ov-ed on CD 19 and before that CD 17 and CD 15. 

Maybe my problem is that my body hasn't been releasing the egg when it's ready & by the time I do ovulate the egg isn't good anymore. Anyone ever heard of this happening? I'm trying not to get ahead of myself, but I feel so hopeful right now.


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## nobump

Briss they have always said that at ec that not all follicles will have eggs but that was with a medicatex cycle. Not sure what happens on a natural cycle. 

Vonn good luck x


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## Briss

*nobump*, that's the thing I can understand how you can have empty follicles on a medicated cycle, some may just grow cos of all the extra hormones even when they do not have an egg inside. in a natural cycle all hormones are mine, nothing extra and the largest follicles are supposed to contain the best eggs that cycle cos the body has the mechanism to choose which follicles to grow to ovulation and which to stop. but even then, suppose the largest follicle is empty (which also means that all other follicles growing that cycle are empty as well), why would the body still go through the hormonal change: oestrogen, LH and then progesterone? would a follicle which is in fact a cyst if it does not have an egg still produce progesterone because it was artificially emptied during EC? These are the questions I cant find answers to and I feel I need to understand this (I hate having gaps in my understanding of this process). unless there is something that I am missing I think what happened was either (i) my eggs ovulated before EC, or (ii) they failed to get the eggs out. I just cant get around the empty follicle scenario, I do not understand how this works. 

*Vonn*, I am very lucky that we have the money to go to Europe (maybe "lucky" is not the right word, it comes from our savings for a house but children are far more important). Great news on your scan! Do ask them how many mm were your follicles and the lining, is the lining triple layer? the follicles are usually over 18 mm when they trigger. the lining should be above 8 mm. Do they also check your bloods? it's important to know your estrogen levels cos you could indirectly know the quality of your eggs. e.g. if estrogen is very low the egg may not be great and vice versa. did they do Doppler to see the blood flow to the follicle? ask also how many smaller follicles are there on both ovaries (it's important to know your antral follicle count if you decide to do IVF). I'd definitely ask them about a possible delay in your egg release but every cycle is different so maybe this cycle you just going to ovulate earlier than before? 

*Blythe*, how are you? have you started your Czech adventure? our Brno trip was so easy to arrange compared to the Munich trip, I booked Ryanair flight as well but did not realise what they call Munich West is actually a totally different town about 2.5 hours away from Munich. it's a good thing we decided to go there for weekend otherwise It would be really hard to make it to the appointment and back in one day.


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## Blythe

Briss - I think they missed your eggs by a couple of hours. 

I scanned all my paperwork and did a summary of my ivf and sent to gennet last night so hope to go to their london offices pre christmas to do first consult, new bloods etc. 

DH has been drinking like a fish and is soon to be in between jobs so times have been better. 

I am avoiding a friend at work who I'm sure is about to announce pregnancy. 

But on a positive note I brought a sprouter off amazon and successfully sprouted some quina. All working towards my high vibration living!!!


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## alison29

That sounds really promising Vonn! I am excited for you..

Blythe I am really proud of you for giving it your all the high vibrational living. I need to meditate more (at all have not done in ages). I feel so much better when i eat more vegtables and drink tons of water. Now my kids need some work there. My dh admitted to inlaws that my daughter has been eating a poptart for breakfast. Talk about a dead food. When my SIL chimed in "her kids don't even know what a pop tart is" I said all that cereal and bread most (likely her family) eat for breakfast is just crap! turns to simple sugar. A slice of bread or bowl of carbs with milk isn't that much better then a pop tart : ) You may as well just dump some butter on a bowl of sugar ha! Don't even get me started on cow's milk as a "health" food lol.


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## alison29

I am really excited about you guy's up coming IVF cycles!


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## Briss

I am seriously impressed with the whole sprouting quinoa thing! Wow! I had to look it up actually, some advanced stuff! My mum used to do that, after reading The Miracle Of Fasting by Paul Bragg. It looked very strange. Tell me more, I so want to be inspired. was looking at myself last night in total disgust &#8211; the IVF weight is just terrifying, my legs are so big I cant even wear hold ups anymore cos they simply roll down my legs and do not stay up. got myself tights (size M!). Since September I've been just wearing the same 3 things to work, nothing else fits. I know I complain a lot about my weight but I just cant find it in me to diet hard as I did before and I know that small sacrifices just not going to make any difference. and I need to focus on my egg quality and this means eating well. I understand all that but it's just so frustrating to be this heavy. this is truly the fattest I've ever been in my life and I really hate it. 

I did not know you have to go through first consult, new bloods etc but it probably makes sense in stim IVF cos they need to know what they're dealing with and chose the right protocol. would your DH need to do SA as well? might be a good idea to know what's going on with all the drinking. you might be surprised actually. I am thinking your DH's sperm is still fine for IVF but would still insist on split IVF/ICSI fertilisation. may even ask for PICSI/IMSI to deal with the possible side effects of his recent drinking.

I am avoiding practically everyon cos face it &#8211; everyone is pregnant or about to be. 

I am trying to get my head around the train system in Germany. I feel like it requires a degree&#8230; while DH is checking out local breweries :(


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## Briss

*Alison*, that " dumping some butter on a bowl of sugar " comment made me laugh! but so true. I sometimes wonder at people's "healthy" choices. I am so used to seeing food as fat (good or bad), sugar, protein etc rather than the actual food


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## Blythe

I think back to my IVF diet and i was having daily avocados [good] and daily whey protein shakes [not good] and stuffing myself with protein bars [really not good] - all really processed and i would not do that again. 

I think i have already mentioned this but I have been making these smoothies with my nutriblast - around 3/4 times per week:

hemp milk
coconut oil
chia seeds
berries
almond butter
gogi berries

and it is delicious - good fats and good proteins and good for eggs.

This is the link to a site with loads of fab recipes on it - she is a bit irritating really but the kale salad is really filling and great for those eggs! I have been making a massive one in the evenings and eating it almost every night for last couple of weeks and have lost 7lbs. I have cut out post meal snacking in evenings and been taking the stairs too but if i keep this up i could be down another 4/5 lbs by xmas and maybe down to my goal weight by end of Jan allowing for xmas binging.

https://deliciouslyella.com/recipe/video-how-to-make-the-perfect-kale-salad/

I have been sticking my sprouting quinoa on top - this salad is delicious and so much in there is great for fertility and eggs.

The sprouter i brought is this one: 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/A-Vogel-Bi...UTF8&qid=1417633007&sr=8-4&keywords=sprouters

The sprouter is cheap and looks quite cool in the corner. It is much better quality when you take it out of the box than it looks on that shot. I have ordered some other stuff to sprout from ebay so looking forward to them turning up.

I soaked my quinoa for about half a day in water then drained and rinsed about 3 times over next 2 days and dada - super healthy sprouts.


*Briss* - what do you think is essential to incorporate into diet when prepping for IVF?

last night i was lying in bed and went onto a website where it answers your questions with simple yes or no. I asked will i get pregnant - YES - am i pregnant - YES

am i completely desperate for coming on this arsehole site looking for hope - YES

Didn't ask the last one but actually did with the first two - how very sad!! 


*Vonn* - really positive news from your scan - what a great relief to hear such good news :) 

Are you doing IUI or having a monitored cycle with trigger?

*Alison* - i would love to meditate properly as i know it would only be a great great thing for me. I have been listening to the circle and bloom meditations every night before bed but all i can focus on is DH's snoring - it drives me mad!! Sometimes i do nod off and then awaken when the session is coming to an end - i do hope some of it is soaking in.


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## alison29

:blush: I have asked those sites too..Thanks for the recipes and the inspiration to quit snacking late night! ITs a habit that has crept back into my routine.


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## Briss

I had a follow up appointment with a consultant today and he actually said that follicles go through the process of luteinisation after egg collection so they will be releasing progesterone even if there were no eggs. basically my progesterone test was a waste of money &#8211; apparently in the context of IVf it does not tell you anything about ovulation/eggs. But he did say my estrogen levels and follicle size are good indicators of egg quality so as you say there most likely was at least one egg that got away. he also confirmed it's safe to do EC every month and my bleeding was most likely a result of puncturing a blood vessel. It does look like my right ovary is giving up though.

ladies, I actually think you are brave to go to these websites where they answer your questions. It means you are really positive and hopeful. I am just simply scared, I can only accept one answer. I am still recovering from the shock of the needle test. cant do this to myself. 

My DH loves goji berries! they are supposed to improve sperm as well but I do not see much improvement. anyway it's all good stuff. 

That berry smoothie sounds delicious! Thanks for the link &#8211; am definitely going to explore it. I am not ready for sprouting yet, it looks like a lot of work? I couldn't even manage regular smoothies/juicing.

I do not do anything special for IVF diet. I used to think protein was really import for eggs but I recently re-read ZW's book and she actually says it's not that great to be dramatically increasing your protein intake &#8211; basically balance is key. I just try to cut all crappy foods and limit sugar. apart from coffee, chocolate and cake I generally eat well anyway (not that it helps me lose any weight). we do not eat out that often and I never buy pre-cooked meals or takeaways, so whatever I cook is made from scratch and I watch all the ingredients carefully. having said that, fruit/veg have most pesticides so it's really hard to eat healthy whatever you do. I do wash them thoroughly but I am sure some traces of pesticides still there in the skin. buying everything organic is not really an option and even then there is no guarantee. 

I loved that kale salad!! Dh was into kale smoothies at one point but he hated it being so hard to chew. I am going to try to massage it as she recommends in your video. I cannot live without pomegranate! I eat it all the time, always have, it's my favourite food (after chocolate and coffee!), maybe it indicates mild anaemia so I am craving iron rich foods like pomegranate.

I eat lots of avocadoes, it really helps to swallow the greens. half of my evening salad is just different types of greens mixed with avocadoes with little bit of olive oil and plenty of squeezed lemon juice &#8211; this is like my must have base of any salad and then I just add whatever veg I have in the fridge usually tomatoes, cucumbers, radishes, peppers etc. and add some cheese like feta or mozzarella or salmon. or when it's cold I make steamed cauliflower for dinner with some fish or grain/milk dishes. 

for lunch I take a piece of lean meat/fish in our canteen and either veggies from our salad bar (nothing with sauce) or cooked carrots or courgettes. when I feel like I have nothing to lose I can sink really low and eat pasta or potatoes

porridge with chai and other seeds for breakfast (+ coffee) or eggs

nuts/ dried fruit/ lots of all kinds of fruit as snacks throughout the day

+ obviously chocolate and lots of herb teas like nettles, mate, raspberry, red clover etc. I never drink water or anything cold except for freshly squeezed juices I occasionally make myself at home


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## Briss

blythe, are you making your own tahini and almond milk?


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## alison29

Wow you eat really healthy briss..


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## Briss

Blythe, I am loving that website! I already ordered my new nut-milk bag :) am going to start making almond milk at home. also got sesame seeds for home made tahini


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## Blythe

Briss. That is fab :)

Almond milk in the supermarket is about 2/3% almond and lots just use rice. Rice is not a high vibration food so making your own is excellent.


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## Blythe

I brought this and hoping it will turn up this weekend:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/15...061529?qid=1417801960&sr=8-1&pi=AC_SY200_QL40


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## Blythe

I have also brought a nut milk bag - yeahhhhh we can make milk [virtually] together!!

i went to an aerobics class earlier this morning and there was an dangerously underweight woman next too me doing all the high impact versions of the exercises. i was stunned that she made it though the class. Her jaw and lips had lost all excess weight and she just looked like a skull on sticks. Her bum was concave and the bones were jutting out.

i felt sad but had other feelings about it too. I know genetics sometimes comes into it but she must have some kind of eating disorder as it was very shocking. I wonder if the instructors or the gym itself are able to say anything. I would not have let her in my class if i was running it but i guess its a very delicate subject. Perhaps her exercising is about her returning to health and maybe part of a programme.

anyhow, i am off to acu later today. i do really love my new chap but i have had a very obvious bruise on the side of my head all week and it has drawn comments. I know it bleed alot when he took the needle out so must have punctured a vein as the bruising is quite widespread....not a great look.


----------



## Briss

We are in Munich enjoying local Xmas market and lots and lots of mulled wine :) AF turned up so nothing can stop me now. Am sad but hopeful. 

When I was skinny i was still rather soft but even than my Nigerian friends thought me seriously underweight (they would always come up with names for that rhymes with anorexia which was rather annoying) I guess they have totally different standards of beauty and skinny is just not considered beautiful. I totally agree about that skinny lady in your class, anarexia is in the head and exercising is often used as a suicide tool, that can be really dengerous. Hopefully there is some prior arrangement with this lady to allow her to the class. I used read a lot on this trying to understand their physic so I could get myself to take control over my weight but I miserably failed I just do not have it in me I guess deep down i like myself even when i look fat. 

I had a bad case of acne a couple of days after EC and it lasted the entire tww :( am on epo this cycle hoping this would help with hormones. 

I asked the doc about my terrible headaches with vomiting at the start if my cycle but he just said its normal :( prescribed untisickness and pain relief tablets to take every cycle for the first few days. This is just outrageous! So unhelpful :( it cannot be normal and surely its a sign of something? I almost told him it was clearly liver chi stagnation but then realised he probably knows nothing of this stuff. Am not taking his tablets 

Which nut milk bag did you buy? Mine is nylon I think, I was not sure its good but people were praising it a lot.


----------



## Vonn

The company my acu clinic now uses for it's herbal tinctures for infertility is called conceivable. They have an app & send a bunch of emails, and one of their main messages is that pms symptoms are not normal. If everything is balanced just right you should eliminate your lining without tons of pain, whether it be tender breasts, headaches, cramps, etc. that makes sense to me.

Briss--what's your feeling about the Munch clinic? Do you still have more meetings to come?


----------



## Blythe

Germany is certainly a lovely place to be this time of year. I guess your appt is tomorrow so i hope you get a good feel for the place and that you have a really good feeling. It is going to happen for you Briss - anytime now and i really cannot wait to hear your announcement when it comes :flower: 

i brought these ones:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/20101567...49&var=500218597493&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT


i have just made these...they are cooling off:

https://deliciouslyella.com/recipe/chocolate-oat-cookies-and-a-cook-book/

I will report back once consumed.


Vonn - i had a lovely acu treatment earlier. for the very first time he cupped my ovaries and uterus!!! Have you had any cupping yet? i have only ever had it on my back before now. Now i would not usually like that this time in my cycle by i am 3/4 days away from AF and i know i am not pregnant so i was happy for him to do what ever. I will probably not make an appt with him half way during 2WW in future as he never asks me where i am in cycle so i dont want to get any implanted embryos [yeah right!!] suctioned out.


----------



## Laummatt

Hello.

I was wondering if I could join you on this thread? I'm 37 and am thinking of trying for number 4. I conceived my two youngest after acupuncture and herbs, I'm convinced it helped. I'm considering seeing him again, but then thats admitting I def do want another... Still in limbo land, just wish it would happen and surprise us!
d.


----------



## alison29

Welcome to the thread! Do you have three boys?


----------



## Laummatt

alison29 said:


> Welcome to the thread! Do you have three boys?

Thank you!!

Yes I do, they are lovely and very lively! It's Birthday month here (they all arrived between Dec 5th and Jan 3rd) so obviously no planning there... They are (or will be shortly) 7, 4 & 2yrs. 
It was just so interesting to read what I have read of this thread so far. This was me, with number 2 particularly. We tried for a while and I found myself at the acupuncturist miserable and my body in a mess. He gave me treatments every fortnight and herbs to drink - like black coffee. I finished the cycle I was on with NO pain at all, after just one treatment - he wasn't surprised. I then had one cycle with him treating me and no pregnancy, but it was 'healthier', if you know what I mean. The next cycle I was pregnant! :cloud9: When trying for number 3 I just went straight to him and was pregnant within 2 months. 
How long have you all been trying? Do you have children already?


----------



## Briss

Blythe, when are you going to start nut milking? I got all my ingredients so i am ready :) the bag looks nothing much tbh I hope it works.

re Munich, we liked the clinic and DH liked the German doc more than our Czech doc but we had to repeat most of our bloods (including AMH), scan etc which was annoying but they would not accept results from other clinics. The doc seemed knowledgeable but again as soon as he saw I have a few follicles he suggested stims. in the end he said they would do whatever we ask but he just thought I have better chances with stims as with at least half of all natural IVFs do not get any eggs (don't I know it!)). anyway, they can't do any EC after 15 Dec and I am ovulating after 17th so they won't be able to take us before next year. My only hope for this year is Brno but I am still waiting to hear from them. The natural cycle will cost around 1,000 euro with IMSI but if no eggs collected we would still need to pay 660 for the procedure. stim cycle costs around 2,000 + meds. I have to say that not once did he say anything about me being old or referred to my eggs quality or anything negative like that. English is an issue as some of the staff only speaks German. They do have foreign patients but most come from all over Germany. Basically from my perspective this trip was a bit of a waste of money because I did not learn anything new but this is just part of the process of being accepted I guess so I just need to let it go. We loved Munich, it was my first time in Bavaria so i can write it off as holiday expenses :) 

interestingly they approach natural IVF similar to Brno - no sedation and no antibiotics, they do flush follicles though


----------



## Vonn

Welcome, Laumatt! Wow, sounds like acu really does the trick for you. That's pretty amazing. What is your traditional chinese medicine diagnosis that they can so easily turn around? 

I think mine has been great for my emotional well-being (my acu doc is so kind and helpful). But there's only been minimal physical improvement, in my opinion. I've got "stubborn" issues.

Blythe--I've never done cupping. Sounds interesting! I'll def ask my acu doc about it.

Briss--Glad to hear the appt went well overall, no red flags is always a good thing. Bummer they can't fit you in. I hope Brno can so you can get your new year's bfp.

Hi Alison!


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## Blythe

Briss. I'm sorry they could not fit you in prior to Xmas. But of a Sid they feel it necessary to do their own bloods 


I have not heard of follie flushing before ....

I have not revived my bag yet and need to get more almonds too. Do I need any other ingredients?


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## Briss

*samanthajohn*, welcome! I hope you will get lucky quickly. 

*Vonn*, nice temp rise! why did you put O on day 13? I think it may have been day 14?

*Blythe*, I am using Path labs for my blood test cos they send you the results within 2 hours and the Polish lady who does the tests is also former TTCer so we have a bit of a TTC update every time I come in. She knows ladies who went to Serum and a few other clinics in Europe. usually you pay 30 pounds for each hormone but AMH will be more expensive  80 https://www.thepathlab.co.uk/ - there is a price list on their website. Cant you do it in CR? It will be cheaper there. You can either call them or send an email.

Day 2 is fine but your FSH will be a bit higher because oestrogen is usually low on day 2. 

I am regretting starting EPO this cycle cos it delays my ovulation and Brno can only do the last EC on my day 13. otherwise they cant fit ET before their Christmas break. fingers crossed my ovulation behaves. There will be a lot of planning in the last moment and I am sure people will get cross at work if I suddenly book pre-Christmas annual leave  everyone usually books it in November so I will be way out of line. cant care less as long as I can get my egg safely to Brno and my perfect embryo back!

Shall we try nut milking this evening? Let me know when you are all set. You do not need anything else just water, nuts and the bag but some ladies recommend adding a date to the mix for sweetness. I think I will try it naturally first to get used to the taste and then will start experimenting with dates. 

I was reading about follie flushing vs. just follicular aspiration and apparently flushing increases EC success in natural IVf but makes no difference in stim IVF. the German doc says flushing takes a second so I wont notice the difference. I am OK with that. 

I found a lady on B&B who got lucky at this Munich clinic so I am very happy I have somebody who can help with my questions. and it does seem to be normal in Germany to get all your tests repeated.


----------



## Blythe

oh thats great - thank you so much. Is it a walk in clinic? I just tried to email them but it pinged back to me.

I have my nut bag but my almonds are not blanched :( So i will purchase some online later and start again this weekend. I may have some cashew nuts though...maybe i will try them.


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## Briss

I actualy walked-in once and it was fine they took me in but it's still better to book in advance. I sometimes just call them to ask if i can turn up in 30 min and they usualy say it's fine.They are not big on starting early so if you want to come around 9.30 best to make sure they know you are coming. 

almonds do not need to be blanched actually. i have both cos i want to see the difference. I think you can milk any nuts


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## Blythe

I have ordered some blanched almonds but will try with the others too. I had some wine earlier and Pringles and now feel yucky. 

Briss are you stopping the epo now? 

Yeah sod work. You will be off on maternity leave later next year and it just won't matter at all. 

Jeeeezzzzz iPhones anoy me. I have just had to correct about 10 mistakes. I just cannot type on the darn things.


----------



## Briss

I gave up correcting mistakes when I type on my phone, it's just so time consuming. I think everyone learns to read what you actually meant to say rather than what your phone typed :) 

Do you think I should stop EPO?


----------



## Vonn

I am very curious about this nut-making process. You two are treating your bodies so well!

As for my ov date, I actually triggered with ovidrel this month the evening of the 11th for a CD 13 ovulation because my lining and follicles looked good when I went in on CD 10 and 11 for monitoring scans. Ovidrel tends to mess with temps, so that's why my temp has just inched up, never got a very good jump after ov.

Post HSG + perfectly-timed BD = Dec BFP (???????) I hope!!!


----------



## Blythe

Briss - I think if you stop epo you can be reasonably sure of your usual ovukation times. I would stop it if you want to get over to reprofit before Xmas. 

Vonn a Xmas bfp would be amazing :). You have everything lined up for it and I'm keeping everything crossed for you:flower:

Samanthajohn. Welcome. :flower:


----------



## Briss

I think you are right. I will stop EPO once AF is over. My headache was sort of starting yesterday, it was building up all day and in the evening I was just so scared it's going to turn ugly last time so I took some painkillers. not great but I really cant go through a day of non-stop vomiting. mild headache is still here this morning but I am holding up, really do not want to take any more pain killer considering I am growing my lucky egg. 

had to find a way out of a business trip to Egypt next week cos I might go to Brno. TTC and career just don't mix that well. 

*Vonn*, join us in our nut milking madness! I have not tried it yet but everyone says it's delicious and by watching the videos it seems like an easy thing to do but you do need to pre-soak the nuts overnight that's the only difficult part. 

I have not actually been treating my body well last couple of weeks, lots of unhealthy German sausages, mulled wine, pancakes&#8230; basically lots of eating out which can never be a healthy thing 

I am really curious about your timed BD cycle. Did your doc specify any particular time for BD? You should expect to start ovulating around 35-37 hours after the trigger shot (at least that's when they schedule EC) but I wonder what your doc recommended as perfect BD timing?

I am so hoping for a Christmas miracle BFP for you!


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## alison29

Hi everyone!
Vonn that sounds promising and someone else on the other thread just got a BFP after HSG (jessie I think?) It really does help to clear the cobwebs away. Plus you know that clomid and ovedriel are doing some magic.

Samantha you sound pretty fertile that is amazing that you get pregnant so quickly. I have two kids who will turn 7 in february (boy/girl) I am pretty fertility challenged...Not doing too much proactive for fertility right now. Just dumping money towards Christmas. I am just getting over a cold so have back tracked on caffeine consumption as well as taken tons of ibuprofen (pre ovulation right now) My mom will be staying in town this weekend which doesn't exactly make bding sound great.


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## alison29

Briss you travel alot for work. I hope you can get out of the Egypt trip.


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## Vonn

Alison--I didn't know you have twins! If you don't mind me asking, how did you get them? Naturally, clomid, IVF?

Nut-milk ladies--If I tried, I'd probably want to make coconut milk. Can you do that? It's not really a nut, like almonds or cashews, but it is what I drink. Coconut is very good for getting rid of candida, which is one of my nemeses (is that plural of nemesis?) right now!

AFM--I am totally over-analyzing my chart. This is just what I do starting around week 2 of the TWW... :wacko::wacko::wacko:

Part of me thinks I oved on day 11, prior to even taking the ovidrel shot. The evidence is confusing. I had a good temp jump but no high or peak on the fertility monitor. That morning when I went in for my second scan the dr asked if I had already oved. I said I didn't think so, why? She said the follicle looked like it had a little tear in it, which could mean just oved or was getting ready to. 

So I've been a little unsure all along. It's no big deal either way, but it's the kind of thing you constantly think about, ya know? And this morning I had a big temp drop, making me think implantation.:thumbup: But I know that ovidrel messes with temps, so I am trying to keep that in mind. Maybe I shouldn't even be temping this month, if it's not necessarily accurate anyway. It just feeds my crazy over-analyzing nature!

RE: BD schedule. I think my dr told us to BD Thur, Fri, Sat. We didn't quite do that--3 days in a row just feels impossible--but we did get two well-timed BDs in, so I feel good about that. If this month isn't a BFP, I want clomid/femara, ov trigger, and IUI next month. I'm done messing around. And, I'll probably add maya abdominal massage into the mix, too.

Sorry for the long post, just felt the need to rant/overshare what I am thinking about but would drive my DH bonkers about if I told him all this! :winkwink:


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## alison29

Vonn the temp drop sounds so promising! Femara is so much better than clomid it doesn't make you crazy or dry up cm.

I got my twins through Follistim injections and IUI at a FS. They also did a lap and found one or two endo lesions. I had done clomid and femara cycles nonmonitered at an OB first. I had another lap with a reg OB almost two years ago and he found no endo. So i don't know what my problem really is now. Although it must be a hormone issue I guess. I have problems with spots and scalp issues which could be high androgen levels. I am pretty sure i ovulate every month so not PCOS but maybe the eggs aren't right because of testosterone IDK. Maybe i should try some femara again.


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## Briss

Vonn, how is it going? any symptoms?

I think you can milk any nuts. I've just done my almond milk and it's truly easy to make and tastes delicious, very rich and creamy texture. although I am not sure i am ready to exchange my whole milk for it yet, will take some getting used to but I am definitely going to include nut milk into my diet. 

the nylon bag worked beautifully so easy to use and wash.


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## Vonn

Glad the nut milk worked! Blythe, have you tried it yet?

I am now either at the very end of 9DPO or 11DPO. Either way, it's the longest I've gone without spotting, so that's very encouraging! I hope it's because I'm pregnant, but I'm not convinced yet. Not any unusual symptoms yet. Just some zits and sore bbs, par for the course. I'm trying to be hopeful, but not get hopes up too far. I think we all battle this feeling.


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## nobump

Good luck Vonn.

Girls I use almond milk in my cereal. But shop bought. Stopped using cows milk a few years ago. Had been using soya but heard that wasn't good for TTC or fibroids so stopped. 

Think my hormones are all over the place. Cried myself to sleep other night. Think it is the time of year. In TWW but as usual we BD more outside of fertile days than during them. Life just happens. BD to order doesn't work. But have noticed more CM since being on the Chinese herbs. Did anyone else have that? 

Xxx


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## Vonn

No Bump--I've found that TTC has made me more emotional. I've started crying in public more than once in the past several months after seeing a cute mom and child. I really feel like I am losing it sometimes.

I haven't noticed much of an increase in CM since taking Chinese herbs, but I wish I had more EWCM. Good for you, that is if you want more!


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## Vonn

Briss--are you doing ivc this momth?

Blythe--do you have a plan plan figured out for ivc?

I got my period today. Only one day of spotting, but only an 11 day luteal phase. Once again feel defective, but on the bright side, we get another chance starting right now! That is pretty amazing.


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## Briss

Vonn so sorry about your AF. Is this full on or just spotting? Could this be implantation? have you tested?


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## alison29

Sorry too Vonn..


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## Vonn

Thanks ladies. It's definitely AF.

Briss--it looks like you are about to ovulate. GL!


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## nobump

Vonn sorry to hear AF has appeared... my counselor suggested that I go on the pill for a few months to enable me to take a break from the monthly disappointment... but don't want to stop NTNP while we decide the next move.

Increase in CM is good for me, means I can stop with having to use lube. Have tried several that were supposed to help with the swimmers, but they haven't appeared to have done any good, but if I am producing enough on my own now, that is good.


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## Vonn

nobump--I agree about what a bummer it is to have to mess around with lube. My cm dried up when my thyroid got bad (although I didn't realize that was what was happening) and I had a lot of pain during BD. That didn't help things. Anyway, so glad your has increased! 

It's been quiet on here lately, hope everyone is doing okay. :flower:


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## Blythe

*Vonn *- i am so sorry that AF arrived. Keep focused on your goals and know that each day brings you closer to your BFP.

*Briss* - did they manage to catch the egg this cycle? I hope so very much they did and that you have some good news. Thinking of you :flower:

*NoBump* - i have sometimes though about going on the pill. it does give you that break and actually for some women it has kick started their fertility potential although of course the pill can bugger it up for others. Its quite difficult to NTNP because i just go a bit crazy and obsessed around ovulation and fret about timings etc....would love to no longer care.

*AFM* - i have been ill with a horrible chest infection so have been off work and just depressed in bed. I always hate calling in sick at work because i feel so guilty even though i felt truly awful....so silly.

I have just started working through some recipies in my new book by this lady and i am really trying to embrace a new way of eating https://ohsheglows.com/

This weekend i will try almond milk!!! encouraged by your comments Briss


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## Briss

Just a quick update, i am in Brno and PUPO!!!! This week was quite stressful, as I had my second scan on tuesday and there was only one dominant follicle next to my cyst and the doc thought it was just fluid filled cyst not the actual follicle :( on top of that my LH surged hours before i was due to do the trigger shot so she said it was not an optimal cycle but I still wanted to try. by the time she got the massage about my LH surge I already booked out flights so she said it's Ok but it was probable that we will lose the egg to early ovulation. I went to Brno with very little hope.

EC was so easy, although they did put me under sedation (I did not mind actually) and to my surprise we got the egg!! I was taking my beloved indometacin from the trigger to morning of EC and the doc agreed to get me to the theatre by 8 am to increase our chances. the follicle was sill there and so was the egg :) I had no pain, no blood anywhere not even a tiny drop of spotting. I am seriously impressed with Dh Hana.

the next stressful point was waiting to hear if the egg was mature and suitable for ICSI and it was. but later that day we got some bad news that my DH's sperm sample was not suitable for PICSI, while motility was high at 65%, the progressive motility was only 25% and also his morphology was 0.5% - poor. but they proceeded with ICSI and I literally burst into tears when I got an email from the doc the next morning saying it fertilised :) it was such an emotional moment - finally after over a year and second time in our IVF history we got through to the next stage past fertilisation. It might be just a coincidence of course but I believe not having stims was the main factor in my egg quality and fertilisation. 

I had a day 2 transfer but was panicking when the doc invited me into her office rather than the surgery room. I was expecting news on cell division and luckily my beautiful embryo divided properly into 4 cells with no fragmentation. The procedure was very easy, and I am grateful they do not make you come with full bladder so I was totally relaxed all the time listening to music. They let me stay on the table for 15 min after the transfer and here I am - so PUPO :) I know the success rates are still not that great but this is the second time in 4 years I know we have a real chance.

*Blythe*, I made that kale salad from the website you recommended but i must have done something wrong with tahini cos it was rather bad and I could not even finish it even though it had my favourite pomegranate :(


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## Blythe

Wonderful briss. I'm On a train so can't message properly but just wanted to say how happy I am to see your post


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## Briss

Blythe, I've been catching up with posts, so sorry to hear you were unwell. Are you better now?


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## Wish4another1

Briss- I am so happy for you!!!! PUPO after so much stress and heartache!!!! Keeping my FX a 2014 :bfp: !!!!
:)


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## terripeachy

Congrats for being PUPO Briss. You've waited a long time for this and I am looking forward to hearing your results! <3


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## nobump

Congrats Briss. FX for you!


----------



## Vonn

Blythe--so sorry to hear you've been sick. This time of year can be stressful enough, so be sick on top of it is really crummy! I hope you are finally feeling better.

Briss--YAY!! I am so happy to hear you were able to go through the process even though some of the circumstances weren't ideal. You are tough and persistent so I know ONE of these times that little bean will snuggle right in and stay put. I hope this is it!!


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## alison29

Yay BRISS!! I was on the edge of my seat reading your post.

I have my 3rd cold since November..that is my story at the moment.


----------



## Blythe

Merry Christmas lovely ladies and thanks for all your words of advice and support over the last year. 

2015 will be it for us all :flower:

I ended up getting gastric flu after chest infection but almost back to normal. I have lost some weight although imagine it will be back on by the end of Xmas day.


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## Briss

Merry Christmas!! 

I so hope for good news for us all.


----------



## Briss

Blythe, I hope you will get better soon. Gastric flu sounds terrible. 

My acne is back, been suffering ever since our first trip to Brno, no idea what triggered it but it looks appalling.


----------



## nobump

Merry Xmas all.

Could the acne be a good sign? Hormones and all?

Been really down. .. AF is appearing. Heading to brothers so will be spending xmas with a house full of kids which will be fun.

Hoe santa is good to all x


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## melly2

Briss: I've been catching up on posts and it's been awhile since I've been on this thread! It sounds like you are currently in the 2 week wait! I know how agonizing it can be, so just hang in there. I hope your acne is a sign of hormones. **fingers crossed** 

2015 will be your year ladies! You have all been so supportive for me, and I really appreciate your wise advice. Keep up the faith, your time will come!

Baby is due any day now. We have no idea what the gender is.


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## Briss

melly, OMG, it's so soon!! best of luck to you, hopefully it all goes smoothly. keep us posted! 

My acne started last cycle after our first trip to Brno so it's not related and so annoying, I look quite appalling and feel very uncomfortable around people cos the spots are big and awful. I look like I've got something nasty :( I am quite sure it's hormonal but really can't understand why it appeared so suddenly and just does not go away. could this be reaction to local beer? I had quite a bit on our first visit :)


----------



## Briss

BFN for me this morning - very sad. It's 12 DPO so this should be pretty accurate, I used Reprofit's test but I will try again on 13/14 DPO with FRER just to be sure before I stop progesterone. For some reason they put my test day as 4 Jan which is 17 DPO - seems far too late my LP is usually 14 days so I do not want to prolong it artificially with progesterone. My only other experience after ET was a year ago when I had a chemical and TWW felt different, I had very localised unusual pains from around 10 DPO and AF type cramping from about 3 days after transfer. I also had spotting from 10 DPO. This cycle I did not feel anything at all, only the usually stuff like breasts tenderness etc. Sad but at least we tried and I am now sure natural IVF is the way forward cos my natural egg is good enough to fertilise but we do need more help with the sperm.

I am going straight into the next cycle, Munich this time mainly because they offer IMSI. I'd loved very much to return to Reprofit because I had very positive experience with Dr Hana. I appreciate so much that she trusted my judgement and agreed to try things I suggested which might have helped to get that egg but ultimately with 0.5 morphology we are facing a sperm issue. She was excellent with EC - probably my best with no bleeding and ET was so easy. Also I worked out all the logistics in getting to Brno and it's so much cheaper to travel to Brno but unfortunately they only offer PICSI and my DH's sperm is just not good enough for PISCI and I feel with just ICSI we can be trying a very long time. Munich is going to be more expensive cos unlike Reprofit they charge 660 even when they do not get any eggs. Also staying in Munich is more expensive but I feel IMSI is really important for us. 

Ladies, Happy New Year!! I so hope 2015 will bring us what we desire most.


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## Hope3

I'm so sorry Briss. I was sure this would be it. I'm still keeping my fingers crossed for you that the second test will be a BFP.

:hugs:


----------



## Blythe

Briss - i am so sorry that this round might not be the one....i wonder how sensitive the reprofit Pregnancy test is. I have been checking your chart 2 x per day over last few days and so hoping to see some wonderful news. I know it will come and i hope that it will happen very soon for you my friend. 

Gennet offer IMSI for an extra £544 and NC IVF is £746....not sure how much this differs from what they are charging in Germany.


----------



## melly2

Briss: I'm so sorry to hear this, but happy to see that you're resuming with your next cycle and going the natural route. I think you know your body best at this point, and it will eventually take. Hugs!


----------



## Briss

I had two large pots of delicious Turkish coffee immediately after that test&#8230; but you are right, ladies on reprofit forum also complained that their pregnancy tests are rubbish. I will do a FRER tomorrow just in case. DH and I did it together this morning, his reaction was very touching actually. At least he now knows he has to watch his drink cos he really relaxed after I had ET.

I may look into Gennet actually but Munich is easier for us for next month simply cos we have already been there and did all the bloods. It's 440 euros for IMSI in Munich. 

I went out and bought myself new underwear, I just cant be trapped in my tiny size 8 items anymore, basically I am going for L or size 12 pants and had to move to C cup!!! have always been A/B but I am not buying any new clothes!! It's either going to be pregnancy clothes for me or if we are not successful in Munich I will take a couple of months off TTC next year to lose that weight because it makes me very unhappy.


----------



## nobump

Briss hoping you will still get your BFP. If not this cycle then Munich. 

Can appreciate how you are feeling about being out of shape. But really hope your next purchase is maternity clothes. 

Sending hugs. 

Hope 2015 is your year xxx


----------



## Briss

it's so amazing but for some reason today (of all days!) a lot of my friends decided to update me on how their children are doing: some went to school (I really did not need to know how long I've been TTC), others are expecting... again - so nice to give their baby girl a brother! I mean seriously, yesterday I would have responded and even found it in me to say something nice but not today not after I tested, I nearly threw away my mob and did not even finish reading the last email. I barely hold it together. it's probably expected - end of the year people want to share how this year has gone, I guess I'm overreacting. It's not their fault I can't share what I am going through, still upsetting


----------



## nobump

It's this time of year I can't stop crying maybe down to AF or just the disappointment of this year . Not looking forwardto NYE.


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## Briss

nobump, I am sorry you are crying too. I was actually doing OK until all these emails from friends, then I just could not keep it together - for everyone else life goes on. I am going to do a lot of "mind work" tomorrow to set myself straight and feel positive about next year.


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## Juniperjules

Hi girls, I haven't been inhere for more than a year.. Briss & Blythe it's lovely to see some familiar names.. Don't know if you'll remember me? I was TTC with my ex (well now he is my ex- together 18yrs.. He wasn't my ex at the time).. We're we're about to start IVF,& I found out he'd been seeing someone for quite a while.. Living a double life basically.. Some horrific & ridiculous situations ensued after this, including multiple confrontations between me, my ex & his 'girlfriend', around the kitchen table... 

Anyway, needless to say I ended the relationship & I miraculously ended up in a new relationship with a beautiful man who I had worked with for 2 years. We've been together for just over a year now, I turned 40 on December 7th, and I came off the pill 2 weeks ago. We agreed that from January were officially TTC. 

I'm excited and nervous too. Worried that we should be going straight to IVF due to my age.. But also wanting to give natural conception a little chance?? We'll try for a few months I guess- but I think maybe ill make an appt for April may with the FS just so were prepared anyway... 
 
Happy new year to you all by the way!


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## nobump

Think my crying is linked to AF. Day 7 now. Have got an appointment through on nhs to see someone about my heavy bleeding in Jan. Hopefully I can ask about fertility as well. Keep having internal debates about giving up. Seeing my brother's new baby over xmas hasn't helped. His 4th. 

Good luck with your FRER. 

Sounds positive that hubby is laying off the booze

Xxx


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## Blythe

JJ - I saw that you posted on another thread the other day and I was super excited to see your name. I was going to message you but was not sure of your situation so very happy to see you here. I'm so glad you are with the new man as when we last were in contact you were feeling guilty. Yours is a wonderful story (minus kitchen table bit) and I'm so glad you are now about to try with your new love. 

I like your idea about a little reprogramming upstairs....essential to bring in the new year. 2015 will bring us joy and we will see our dreams come true. This is a fact. I intend to start this year feeling fertile and with excitement about what it will bring (clearly need to spend a fair bit of time today on reprogramming thoughts). I really believe it will happen and that is why I cannot let go.


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## Blythe

Briss - i just saw your chart. Did you test on a FRER? I am very very sorry that it did not happen this cycle.


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## Briss

*Juniperjules*, great to have you back! I really hope your TTC journey will be a short one. You know what they say about getting pregnant quicker when you have new relationship and feelings are running high. I so hope this will do the trick for you. I am happy to see that you found your man, you deserved it! although I am sorry to see your long term relationship broke down but your ex was just so unreliable and unsupportive and it turned out there was a reason for this so you are better off without him. I am happy it all worked out for you but you have been through so much you deserve a break!

*nobump*, i feel for you, I would not be able to be around babies now. it's slightly easier after I had ET and felt hopeful but definitely not now. Theoretically I can give up on DH if it comes to it however much it pains me but I will carry on TTC until I have my healthy beautiful baby

*Blythe*, your friend sounds horrible, I admire your strength though but I'd stay away from her, she brings too much negativity. you are such a wonderful and caring person with so much wisdom and knowledge to share, she should be lucky to "end up like you"

*afm*, another BFN with FRER, not a sniff of a line so this is over. sad but hopeful - we had a good egg and went all the way to ET, it would have been better if we could have PICSI but here you are. 

2014 - another year of TTC, we tried DH's hormonal treatment - fail; high stim IVF - epic fail; natural ICSI - fail; we travelled a lot this year; my weight has gone up but my career is going down. our relationship with DH are much better than before so here is something positive. I know if you look at my entire TTC history - it's just depressing but somehow I feel fertile and firmly believe in my body. I feel we just need to get lucky with a single healthy sperm and my egg and my body will take care of the rest. 

2015 - IMSI, Europe IVF travelling; I will carry on with Munich at least until we have had IMSI all the way to ET and if we are not successful we will probably take a couple of months break so I could lose that IVF weight and go on holiday somewhere exotic and then we carry on with natural IMSI, maybe even at Gennet. I am reading about this Czech clinic and like it actually so we may move on there after Munich. I decided against Dovkav's clinic for the time being cos they do not offer IMSI and I feel this is very important for us. I have to say at the moment I feel tired even thinking about another trip abroad for EC/ET but I will make myself feeling positive and optimistic about it before the end of the day. 

as for today, I did not go to work (there were years when I was the last person to leave the office (and we have around 1000 people in the office!) on both Christmas and New Year's eve and was barely managing to get home before midnight but not this year!), I am going to take care of myself - will do my hair, take care of my skin etc etc, will make a few lovely dishes and set a nice table for the evening. 

I spent 4 hours in the House of Fraisers last night looking for an evening dress that would fit and make me look slim. I tried every dress and they were horrific, size 10 would not fit, size 12 makes me look even fatter :( and then I found one at L.K Bennet - so relieved! https://www.lkbennett.com/Clothing/...tted-Dress/p/DRDETROITPOLYESTERMIXBlueSnorkel I know it may not look like much but trust me it's beautiful and it completely re-shapes my figure like I have not put all this weight and still look almost like my old self. It cleverly covers all the nasty bits :) and I fit into size 8!! I do not know how they make these dresses but these guys are just amazing, it's like wearing shaping underwear only in a form of a dress. 

Happy New Year, ladies! 2015 will be the year for us


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## Blythe

briss - sorry that this cycle did not work. it is just a matter of time now and you now know what works...ie no drugs and im sure imsi will bring you your baby. like you i wish i had never bothered with ivf in the uk but sometimes we just have to exhaust every possible option to bring us to the place we are.

you are right about my friend...i am going to keep my distance and i cannot bear to hear her grubling about her pregnancy symptoms or how she will manage with 2 small children.

i adore that dress.....so flattering. love the colour and cut aroud the neck. i lost quite a bit of weight before xmas due to illness but it is all back on so i just need to get back into my workouts and eating kale salads!!

happy new year to you lovely ladies.


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## nobump

Briss love the dress!

Wishing everyone a fab 2015!


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## Briss

ladies, I hope everyone had a fab time on new year's eve.

I need your advice. I stopped my progesterone and am waiting for AF so we can start our next cycle. I am also about to write to the Munich clinic. I can't seem to get over the whole putting on weight situation. I upsets me virtually every minute. it's like I suddenly got a different body and can recognise no part of my old self. I am so tempted to start dieting again but I stop myself. after all it's all vanity and it makes no difference to my fertility actually some fat may even be good for fertility (so I tell myself but I do not really believe it). we will carry on with natural IVF going forward on monthly basis but obviously it's not necessarily every month that they will be able to get my egg or fertilise it so I am thinking more and more strongly that I may want to diet to get my body back in the meantime. but then I think I might be damaging my egg quality by depriving it from important nutrients like fruit and nuts? I will be taking my vitamins and fish oil but I do need to stay within 900-1000 calorie limit otherwise it's no use. I know it seems unreasonable but I just find it so hard to accept how I look after that last stim IVF. it creates a lot of negativity. what shall I do?


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## nobump

Had good new years. 2 night break in a hotel. But bathroom had lots of mirrors! Briss I can relate I don't like how much weight I have put on. Need to look at doing more ans eating more sensible. Can you look at doing more exercise and eating maybe 1200/1500 calories? A friend has took up in line skating thinking of doing that. Need to find a local pool to go swimming. We're booking a holiday for end of feb want to be able to feel good in summer clothes.

I think if you keep your vitamins up you should be ok.

Xxxx


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## Briss

nobump, thanks! I do not think i have more than 1500 calories a day anyway. I am petite so I do not really need much. I had to go as low as 700 a day to really lose weight, otherwise I am just torturing myself for nothing. I even noticed the pattern: I start with losing weight quickly and then 2-4 days into the diet it stops and it may take 1-2 or even more weeks and my weight just would not move, sometimes it can even start climbing back up again, the important thing is to stick at it and carry on with 700-800 calories cos eventually I break through and start gradually losing weight by little bit every day and from then on it's just a matter of time. the whole thing should take around 2 months. it would make me happy to go back to my weight but I am just so scared this can affect egg quality. going through IVF and not giving it your best seems unreasonable. that's why i just can't make up my mind. I was showing my New Zealand pictures and people thought it was many years ago!! they could not believe that I looked so different only a few months ago :(


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## Juniperjules

Thanks girls for the warm welcome back! Although I know you'd rather not need to be in here for obvious reasons, it's really lovely seeing familiar folk in here! 

So I'm now waiting to see wot my body is going to do. I stopped the pill 2 weeks ago, & according to my 'iperiod' app which I've used for years to track periods, my period 'should' be here tomoro.. That's purely based on all the info from before feb 2014 when I started the pill. I've only been taking the pill less than a year so am really really hoping my cycle will bounce right back into it's normal routine. I missed a pill 2 months ago & ended up having my own natural cycle break thru after that (coincidentally it was at a time when I would have had a period had I not been on the pill)... So am hoping that's a good sign that my body will go back to normal quickly. 

I feel some slight pangs of panic at the idea that it might not start in the next few days bcos I'm so nervous about being 40 now & the clock ticking away.. But I'll try & remain calm & see wot happens! 

Briss, have you tried Dr Michael Moseleys 5:2 way of eating. Basically 2 days a week you 'fast' & only have up to 500 calls on those days. On the other 5 days you can eat normally -obviously trying to eat healthy options but with no real restrictions. When u eat this way you loose approx half a kilogram a week. Slow steady loss. I absolutely love it. When I read the book & watched the doco I was sold, bcos it's not just about weight loss, he explains how it works and why it's so amazing for your body & has so many health benefits...

.......................................
From an article with Dr Moseley:
HOW DOES IT WORK?

"One of the main things that intermittent fasting seems to do is switch on repair genes  genes whose job it is to keep the various bits of your body in good shape. The reason this happens is not fully understood; however, the evolutionary argument goes something like this. As long as we have plenty of food, our bodies remain in constant go-go mode; it is like driving a car with your foot constantly on the accelerator.

When you fast, the bodys initial reaction is one of shock. Signals go to the brain reminding you that you are hungry, urging you to find something to eat. But you resist. The body decides there must be a famine, so there is little point wasting energy on growth: instead, it gets cracking on some of the urgent maintenance tasks that it might have been putting off.

As part of this repair process, the body breaks down and recycles old and tired cells (in a process called autophagy or self eat) getting rid of damaged or ageing parts to keep everything else in good working order.

Fasting, it seems, also sparks the production of new cells. Recently, Professor Valter Longo of the University of Southern California published a study showing, for the first time, that fasting can switch on stem cells and regenerate the immune system."
..............................................

You probably already know about the 5:2. But I'm just such a huge fan for the following reasons:

1. Because it works to lose weight- I lost 3kg just prior to a 7wk European holiday this year& felt great. 
2. You can eat normally (but healthy) 5 days a week & not feel like ur on a diet! You can still have a couple of nites where u have a glass of wine or some chocolate. U don't feel deprived.. Let's face it, food is great! It's a huge part of our lives so we should be able to enjoy it!
3. when I fast I feel very empowered and in control. For me it definitely has some psychological benefits. I drink sparkling water all day & keep very well hydrated (& full!), I have a coffee to start the day, maybe some porridge or a banana, then at dinner a salad with some protein (egg, chicken, fish). Mentally I feel like I'm exercising some discipline- which sometimes I feel is a little, (but not a lot) out of control when it comes to food. And physically I feel fantastic after a fast day. I feel clean & light. The first few weeks are the hardest, but after that I've found it gets easier & pretty straightforward
4. I love the idea that by fasting I allow my body to start repairing itself.. I love the idea of all those little macrophages racing around cleaning up all the debris & nasties in my body & cell repair taking place. Particularly now, at 40yrs of age, and TTC, I want as much help as I can get to ensure my body is functioning the way nature intended it to! 

So anyway.. Rant over! : ) as u can tell I'm a big fan of the 5:2. It works for me. Sorry for the looooong post!


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## Briss

*Juniperjules*, How I missed your long posts!! thank you for taking the time to set it all out. I will definitely look into the 5:2. it actually may work while TTC. How long did it take you to lose 3 kg? Do you have any calorie limit for the 5 days when you eat normally? I stepped on the scale this morning and was very upset to see my weight climbed to 58.7 :( so basically it's not just IVF weight here I have put on some more in the last month. I need to lose ideally 9 kg but even 7 would be fantastic progress. 

AF is still not here but I think I know what the mystery is - some of my progesterone pills are still inside, sorry TMI we BD and a lot of it was there, why did it not absorb? I put the last one on Thursday, what's it still doing there? these are new progesterone pills I got in Czech republic. I so hate it when medication screws my cycle. I really want to move on.


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## nobump

Briss think I need to follow your lead... I am petite as well and carrying to much... have packed all the xmas chocs away... will try to only have some when AF is here. Can usually do without chocs most days... bought some nice food yesterday will try n eat more healthy from now on had lost urge to cook for myself during the week when DH is back shift... may look at 5:2 diet as well... 7 weeks to holiday. .. but will need to fast mid week would be to much to miss out when with DH at weekends. 

Think green tea is supposed to help as well may start drinking that again..

I only took the progesterone persaries for a few days so can't really advise.... but think I got AF on time after failed cycle.

JJ look forward to hearing more from you good luck. Your vacation sounds fab 7 weeks!

Xxxx


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## Briss

I think I am going to try this 5:2 thing from tomorrow. I calculated that I need to eat not more than 1500 calories on non-fasting day - https://thefastdiet.co.uk/how-many-calories-on-a-non-fast-day/ I wonder if 500 on fasting days is accurate for me. he says it should be 1/4 of total calorie intake but this assumes you take 2000 which is too much for me, I only take 1500 so i guess on fasting day I should do around 375 calories?

also still can't figure out if 2 fasting days should be in a row or can have non fasting days in between? I'd rather have monday-tuesday as fasting days and get it over with for the week.

I am going to resume my aerobics for the first week of my cycle except for the heavy AF days. 

hating that Czech progesterone, ladies on Reprofit thread explained that it's delaying AF and sometimes takes ages for it to come :(


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## Vonn

Hi everyone! I truly hope that 2015 lands every one of us on :cloud9:!

I took a break from b&b over the last couple weeks, at least from posting. Still had to see how folks fared. 

Briss, so disappointed for you that the IVF didn't work. I hope Munich has a little magic for you and DH. Glad you found a diet that allows you to continue TTC. Sometimes for me it feels like the ultimate trade-off--either living life or TTC--like they can't both happen at the same time.

We did our first IUI this month. I hope it is just what we need, but since the problem is not DH's sperm, I'm not 100% convinced it will help. My insurance covers 6 IUI's per confirmed pregnancy, so I figure why not try it, can't hurt to get the spermies closer to egg. We didn't accompany it with any clomid, femara, etc., because the dr I have been seeing wasn't in favor. 

I'd prefer to have a reproductive endocrinologist overseeing all of this, so we have an appointment at a new place on January 16. I hope we don't need it, but I'm glad to have it.

Even as recently as a couple months ago, I optimistically believed DH and I would not be a couple in need of IVF or other serious medical intervention. I still believe we'll get a baby somehow, but I am starting to resign myself to the more realistic stance that when we do, it will be one expensive baby. 

I also still have a nagging feeling that my thyroid is still not functioning well enough to allow a pregnancy to happen. That is incredibly frustrating and demoralizing. I desparately work to optimize every facet of fertility to compensate for my wacky thyroid. I'm now reading about castor oil compresses, melatonin, and high doses of DHEA. Thoughts on any of those? (Blythe and Briss--I read a b&b thread where some ladies advocated for a high dose of DHEA & if I recall you two were both not in favor, right?)


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## alison29

HI Everyone! I have been keeping up but on my phone so it is a pain to post..
I think the fasting sounds great. I think it trains your stomach to shrink so you eat less on those regular days too. Just a theory. 
On break at my mom's she told me she started menopause at 40...Hopefully I didn't inherit that trait. 
Anyway, just going to catch up more now.


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## Briss

*alison*, try not to think about the big M, think yourself young and your body will follow your mind. I aged terribly in the last two years, I used to look much younger and I think TTC is responsible cos it makes you think about yourself as an older mother, there is a lot "age stuff" that is being thrown at you like egg quality declining with age, TTC over 35 is hard etc so your mind takes it all in and your body follows. I am trying to break through that pattern of thought but it's hard

*Vonn*, that's exactly how I feel you either devote all your energies and basically the entire life to TTC or just feel that you are not doing enough and reducing your chances. it's OK when it takes you a year to get pregnant but when you are at it for years it gets to you. I had a couple of breaks from TTC when I lost weight and went on holiday and it was fab but there was always that sad feeling deep down, it's just always there. Well done for not wasting any time and doing IUis, I'm hoping this will be enough. I know thyroid may be an issue but there are many women who have babies despite this problem so hopefully you will be lucky 

re DHEA, I checked my blood levels and they were fine, I also looked at side effects which can be quite nasty but the most important consideration for me was the fact that it's a hormone that your body is producing naturally so when you start interfering there is a chance you can mess up your system big time. people do not know enough about hormones. besides the benefits have not been proved definitely, it seems to help some but have no effect on others. Your natural levels decline with age so I also thought there is a danger that by taking it you will get your body producing less naturally but much faster than you would otherwise. if you are already taking thyroid hormone you know how it is, your dose keeps getting up as your body produces less and less as a response to the hormone levels in your blood, it's like vicious circle. Having said that I also decided that I revisit DHEA when I am 40 or if my IVF clinic suggest taking it. my previous clinic was against DHEA but they wanted me to take HGH &#8211; human growth hormone. unfortunately I had a tumour in the past which meant I could not take it but a friend of mine did take it and she is now pregnant with twins and have 4 blasts in the freezer. of course there is no way of telling if HGH was responsible but people seem to think it works for older ladies. 

*afm*, feeling rather upset with AF not showing up, my brain knows that it's just a matter of time and I need to wait but my heart hopes, it always does whatever the circumstances and even if it's clearly over it still secretly hopes and it drives me mad because it's very hard. so I went out and got more pregnancy tests &#61516; I know I am going to see that bfn again and get upset but I need it to shut that hope so I could move on emotionally. cursing the Czech progesterone my AF was supposed to come 4 days ago!!

re 5:2, so I started my fasting day today and almost screwed it immediately, I invited a junior for a leaving lunch sort of thing and completely forgot about fasting; I desperately tried to find something I could eat on the menu and there only thing was smoked salmon salad which turned out to be 340 calories + morning cappuccino = almost 500 calories and it was not even 2 pm &#61516; so I cant eat anything else today if I want it to work. evenings at home are the hardest so will see, in the meantime sticking to various herbal teas to help me feel fuller 

determined to do aerobics later today but will see how I feel when I actually get home


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## alison29

Thanks for the pep talk Briss. You are so right. It is a mental thing. Plus my Mom had no idea what was going on with her self and reproduction anyway. She never paid attention because she didn't care plus no kept track of things like we do now. I know how it is with that voice of hope telling you to test again and then I hate myself for being suckered into spending money on tests (that is a vicious cycle too!) . Usually taking more tests makes me start AF.


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## Briss

alison, it's actually possible that your mum's M started much later, these things hard to pinpoint particularly if you are not paying attention. So I would not focus on this. we do not know when my mum had hers cos she had to have her uterus removed in her 40s due to constant bleeding possibly related to thyroid issues. when I asked she could not even recall when that operation took place, she was sure it was in her 30s. i think this generation had children earlier and they just stopped paying attention to this function much earlier then we started thinking about it. 

I tested :( It's so nice to know someone understands, I would not survive this TTC nightmare without your constant support, ladies! bfn of course, 5 pounds down the drain but it gave me freedom to do my aerobics tonight! I only lasted 30 min though :) dusted my favourite J Fonda dvd, i hope I can make it a regular thing. I am so hungry and my herbal teas just do not cut it, I may have to resort to a bit of honey later on if things get really desperate. Otherwise I'm pretty proud of myself today, really really hungry but proud :) that's a start.


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## nobump

Sorry to hear about your negative test... but way go you briss.... day one of fasting! Hope you survive the evening. 

Failed attempt for me... was doing good.... but succumbed to the wine we opened yesterday..... went for a walk though...


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## Briss

I survived the evening, did not even have any honey (although still might) but had to move to water half way through the evening cos my raspberry tea started making me feeling sick. sparkling water makes you feel fuller I noticed. was reading a lot on dieting and various approaches but realised the simple truth that it's all down to calories. whatever diet you take as long as you eat less than you use you are going to lose weight. if you diet but do not lose any weight it just means you still eat too much and need to review your calorie intake objectively. I guess when I was eating up to 900 calories a day I was losing weight quicker and it gave me motivation to carry on the suffering. but I will still lose weight if I eat 1200-1300 on the non fasting 5 days it's just going to take much longer and will be less noticeable. I should prepare myself for 5-7 months to lose 9 kg. probably around 300-400 grams a week. but this should work out well for eggies which is the most important thing. 

btw have not had any chocolate today!


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## Blythe

Hi Ladies - have been very inspired by your talk of losing weight. i lost quite a bit through illness before xmas and felt wonderful....just a few lbs and it made such a huge difference to how i felt about my body and how clothes looked. Through a combination of drinking, feeling ill again and pure laziness all weight now back on so i am too determined to bring in this new year feeling good about my food intake.

*Briss* - i am sorry to read about that BFN....whilst AF stays away there is always the hope that this may be the one. i actually just tested myself and the darker line could not have been any darker [and the white bit whiter]....just to bring the point home!!

*Vonn* - around the 18-24 month stage i started looking at DHEA. i purchased the micronised version, the only one you should be getting if TTC. I stopped taking it after a fair amount of hair loss...it was a very worrying time for me as i thought i might actually get bald patches. Some IVF clinics advise women to take it in run up to a cycle and of course there are those magical stories of women falling pregnant naturally with it!! But those same stories are also doing the rounds with soy isoflavines, vit D and spells purchased off ebay etc etc 

Might be worth getting DHEA levels taken if you are considering taking this particularly in light of thyroid concerns.

i have everything crossed that this will be your month :flower:

AFM - In december i had my bloods drawn again and this is how things have changed in a 12 month period for me at 42 years old:

*Dec 13:*
*FSH* 7.2
*LH* 8
*E2* 259
*AMH* 6.4 pmol/L


*Dec 14:*
*FSH* 9.4
*LH* 6.9
*E2* 196
*AMH* 7 pmol/L

*TSH* 0.78 mu/L
*T4* 15.2 pmol/L


Not great but not really bad, although i have no idea if my thyroid is something to be concerned about.


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## Blythe

Briss - i forgot to say that i saw you were spotting on your chart. I really hope that AF starts and you can get focused on this new cycle. It is the worst thing when these things are dragged out when you just want to draw a line under it.

i wonder if the CZ proges' is much stronger than the ones issued here?


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## Briss

Blythe, your bloods look really good! are you starting your IVF this cycle? Please let me know what you think about Gennet cos I may have to move to this clinic.

AF is finally here, took 4 days! in case you will also be taking Czech progesterone just something to keep in mind it does seem to be stronger even though I was taking a lower dose compared to cyclogest. it's actually much nicer then cyclogest, I used it vaginaly and had no issues 

I woke up feeling terribly hungry and still am. Determined to get through my second fasting day but I am feeling so sick and hungry at the same time. all my muscles are aching today after only 30 min of aerobics &#8211; ridiculous how unfit I am! I also take the stairs now, my office is on the 7th floor and this morning I was totally exhausted before I reached the second floor! by the time I got to my office I could not even talk.

was watching a very interesting programme on TV about foods and they investigated metabolic rates. they did an experiment on various people by measuring their oxygen levels. apparently the fatter you are the higher your metabolic rate so all this talk that people are putting on weight because of their slower metabolic rate is nonsense. and again they raised the same point &#8211; calories are the key to losing weight, you need to calculate how much you use daily based on your measurements and lifestyle and then just adjust your calorie level accordingly. the most difficult part is to calculate (objectively) how many calories is in what you eat and that's where most people get it wrong and fail to lose weight. another mistake is to think that as long as you eat healthily you will loose weight. healthy food or unhealthy food makes no difference as long as you stay within your calorie limit. that's why I can lose weight on chocolate but fail to lose it on fruit. calorie wise I need to eat less chocolate than fruit to feel fuller. One thing you can do to increase your metabolic rate over time is to take up swimming in cold water. 

another thing they talked about was gluten free foods and apparently it's only ever relevant to people with genuine conditions like celiac disease which is rare. there is a lot of bad stuff added to gluten free foods so they are better avoided altogether (same as fat free foods are not really good for you).

my nut milk thing totally failed, DH was not interested and I could not convert. I just prefer normal milk (full fat version) and could not get myself to drink nut milk regularly. it went bad before I managed to finish it and DH ate all the almonds&#8230;


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## alison29

I love that feeling of smugness after having resisted a day of cravings for food its the best the hunger feels good kind of once you know you made it to bed and you know you won't fold and eat.

I love milk too! I drink the almond mostly but ate too much cheese over the holiday. It is hard to avoid when visiting family and cheese and crackers are the main appetizer alot. I am avoiding the milk to help skin though. I am so jealous when i see my family gussling large glasses of whole milk everyday.


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## alison29

IT's hard to say about the gluten thing. I have heard a lot of mainstream health people say the same thing as you heard. I have read (on the internet not sure what sites though) about gluten intolerance causing immune response in people who do not test celiacs positive. Some say could contribute to Fibromyalgia type pain, joint pain, fatigue, etc. I guess it's up to a person to decide what they believe. My friend says gluten flares her eczema (which is really bad i have seen it) and i don't think she tested for celiacs though. There is a ton of info out there. I thought was getting healthier from being gluten free (did not have cold for eight months!) Of couse once i told my mom about it I have had two colds with in a eight week period now.


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## Briss

alison, I know! I felt so proud of myself last night &#61514; silly but so true. I had cappuccino for breakfast, fish +veg for lunch and a tiny piece of choc. I guess this is it until tomorrow&#8230; not sure if I can hold it that long 

I still cant figure out what triggered my skin breakout but I do not think it's milk, I am having spots in most unusual places like eyebrows, it's ridiculous. something triggered it cos it happened all of a sudden 2 days after my first Czech egg collection and just would not stop. 

they actually said that going gluten free is a major change to your diet so you should really be careful. but I agree you usually know if gluten makes you feel bad or not. and definitely if you know that eating gluten causes your immune system to attack your body you should stay away from gluten. but I do not think it's true for many people. I love bread and it agrees with me so I think I should be OK. I would be careful about foods which are labelled gluten free to make sure they did not add some nasties in it. I know they do with fat free foods.

I should stop talking about food I am so hungry and I had lunch less than 2 hours ago! 

getting annoyed with the Munich clinic, they still have not responded. I need to book my scans and bloods and generally be more certain what we are doing next.


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## Vonn

Briss--Way to go with the fresh start to the new year! My suggestion would be to not try too many new things all at once. On fasting days, I would not attempt strenuous exercise, at least not to begin with especially if you haven't been exercising regularly. You'll not have the energy (calories) to complete it and feel good. It will probably make your blood sugar plummet and you'll feel famished and cranky. Save the exercise for eating days. Yoga, tai chi, or stretching would be better on fasting days, I think.

The other thing that increases metabolic rate 24 hrs a day is strength training. Muscle is more efficient and burns calories at a higher rate than fat, so the more muscle you have, the more calories you burn all day and all night--while sleeping, while eating, while watching tv. And women should not really worry about getting too bulky. It would take a lot of intense weight lifting for that to happen. Ladies, get some hand weights or milk jugs and do some lunges, squats, bicep curls, tricep extensions, ab work!

(I say all this with a huge caveat: I currently do not exercise at all. :nope: I used to be an athlete. Since my thyroid got bad any commitment to exercise went down the drain. Now it's so bad that if I attempt anything strenuous I get a terrible return of symptoms. I believe it is because my thyroid cannot oxygenate my blood quickly enough to keep up when I exercise. It's really depressing. And to make matters worse, my DH doesn't really get it. He thinks I just need to exercise more and shames me a little for it.)


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## Vonn

Also, re: gluten and gluten free. My dr wants me off gluten. She says wheat is not what it used to be and many humans would do better without gluten, even those who don't have as serious a problem as celiac.

At one appointment I said something about how bad most of the gluten free stuff I had tried was and my dr looked at me horrified. She said not to eat gluten free stuff/substitutes for gluten either because they are all full processed crap and are bad in other ways.


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## Briss

Vonn, you are right re exercise, I just needed a distraction from hunger if I just sat at home in front of the TV all evening I'd definitely find it harder not to eat but I am completely exhausted today. I need to find a way to do Yoga, I just find it so boring and hard that I just cant motivate myself to do it. aerobics is fun and you immediately get feel good hormones released so you are happy about doing it. with yoga I have no feel good hormones whatsoever, it's hard work and I get most of it wrong so terribly frustrating and as a result harder to stick to it. I have a library of fertility and other yoga dvds but I just could not do it long term. 

strength training is a good option actually, I have arms and ankles weight I can put on and do some exercises. J Fonda again my favourite has a lot of this type of exercises that I can manage but probably tomorrow when I can eat a bit more. 

I actually know how you feel re thyroid, my mum had a very serious case of undiagnosed underactive thyroid but everyone was telling her to stop complaining and just get some rest and feel happy. Even some doctors thought she was making it up. people just do not get it, really frustrating. she was incredibly skinny and very active and very quickly turned into size 18- 20 and had T4 at 0. I was threatened by the words hormones and thyroid from early on cos I could see the impact it made on my mum.


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## alison29

Briss have you tried any new hair or comestic products recently this could cause a breakout?


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## alison29

You are right Vonn the gluten replacements have more calories and less fiber than actual gluten bread has so it is really easy to pork up if eaten as replacement. I buy some every once in a while though.. Things like waffles or pancakes yum! But yes all carbs and no nutritional value. Eggs would be a better choice. I am a carb addict. All that stuff is straight to sugar in our bodies.


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## threebirds

Hi girls, every so often I pop in to catch up on this thread. Its so hard to know what to try / what works. I tried: various supplements (preferred mix was: zita west pregnancy tablets, zw dha omega tablets & zw vit d nasal spray), chinese acupuncture & herbs, fertility hypnotherapy & reflexology, gf diet, calorie counting & exercise (couch to 5k) - i was doing all of the above when i got preg for the 4th time / i was LTTTC and had 3 losses before that, as well as 2 icsi cycles. I honestly feel that all those things helped me get preg & stay preg that 4th time (at 40/41!). 

My waters broke at 34 wks and I had a c section. After my baby was born the surgeon had some difficulty with my uterus. It was v thin & lacked muscle in places (surgeon said he'd seen 700 wombs but never came across anything like mine!). This was something that wouldnt have shown up in scans or got picked up in normal tests. It was only discovered at this stage - but it is likely this caused at least some of my losses and was also why it was hard for me to get preg. So after spending £1000s ttc it turns out I had a physical problem all along. However, I do actually think everything I was doing did help & make the difference and maybe gave me those slightly better odds that brought success.
I had a good google and think that the womb / uterus problem might be adenomyosis. I ended up needing blood transfusions and was quite poorly. But believe me I know how lucky I am to have my baby. 

I really hope you don't mind me posting here - I just want to offer encouragement, especially when it is so hard to pinpoint why ttc isnt working. Don't give up xxx


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## Briss

*threebirds*, congratulations! I totally agree that when it does not work there must be a reason and in most cases we just do not know what this is. In our case I am pretty sure it's the sperm but I have exhausted everything I could think of to improve it. I have to hope that natural IVf will get us there. Have you had a lap as part of your TTC efforts? Could this pick up the thin uterus issue you think? 

*alison*, that's a good point, I might have stopped my organic shampoo and moved back to herbal essences but just cant recall when exactly this happened. as an experiment I will go back to organic shampoo and see if this makes a difference. 

*afm*, I survived yesterday but just about. still had a cucumber in the evening and several times licked a spoon with bits of raspberry preserve &#8230; still it all adds up to just over 500 calories which more than I wanted but it was just too hard. the good news is that after these two fasting days being allowed 1200-1300 calories seems like I can eat loads! still, I am saving most of my calorie allowance for the evening cos this is the hardest time. To my surprise I found drinking sparkling water was really helping with hunger despite being cold, while my usual hot herbal tea were just making me ever more starving. I guess hot drinks works better when you add a tiny bit of choc but since I was not allowed any it just did not cut it. 

I lost about a kg since Sunday but of course I know it's not a real weight loss, just water but it's really nice to see that change and even though I know it's not real it still helps my motivation to carry on. 

Could not do the stairs today I just do not feel my legs and cant even walk normally even though I did not do any exercise yesterday. Will see if I can manage any exercise today but probably not yet. 

Munich finally responded so we can plan this cycle. I can already tell it's going to be far more expensive cos they want me to start scans from day 8 which means there will be more scans &#8211; more costs + they want 3 hormones traced and not two (+ progesterone) so again more costs.


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## threebirds

Thanks Briss, we had sperm problem too & had been told we had pretty much no chance of gettin preg without donor egg icsi - but somehow we managed it. Actually 2 of the 4 times i did get preg we had used diy turkey baster method (coz we just werent up to dtd every cycle on demand), using collection cup, oral syringe & preseed - that might have helped his swimmers...

We are not actually ttc, just tryin to throw in anything that might be helpful to others. I know how frustrating it is when you feel like you've tried everything but that its worth keeping going xx
:dust:


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## alison29

Congrats 3 birds! I agree with that theory too that they just can't figure out what the problem is because maybe the disorder is not a text book case or the dr is not asking the right questions for diagnosis.

Briss , I recently went to the derm and used the cetaphil cleanser they recommend which gave me 5 inflamed acne lesions on my forhead where i never breakout I was so embarrassed to have anyone look at me..Now i use grapeseed oil with touch of castor oil to cleanse and spritz off with spring water (i think even a wash cloth would cause breakouts to my skin). UGH I guess my skin is super sensitive. I guess with our skin less is more (at our age) the places where i never do anything like my back have perfect skin. I have to take makeup off somehow though. I think the sunscreen moisturizer was breaking me out too.


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## Juniperjules

Hi girls! Sorry I haven't been in here since I last posted- have worked right thru Christmas & new year & also trying to clean & set up our new house were about to move into... I'm mentally and physically exhausted! But I just quickly read ur post Briss & wanted to mention a couple of things.. 

Your fast days can be back to back or totally separate- it's entireky up to you. EVERY female regardless of ur current weight can have up to 500 Cals a day- you CAN have less, even none if u choose to make it a comete fast- but the book says that up to 500 is fine for every woman, (600 for men). 

Also it Is fine to exercise on a fast day. Infant Dr Mosley advocates for it based on the research he did. Obviously don't overdo it at first if it's been a while since you've exercised- but I actually like exercising on a fast day- I did a 20km bike ride last week on a fast day. 

I also drink sparkling water in fast days bcos it's easier to drink that normal flat water & does fill u up. You'll find that after a few weeks, u won't feel as Hungary on fast days- like ur body/ brain gets used to it. 

Am glad ur trying it out- 1/2kg a week is great when u still get to eat normally on other days. If u do it right u don't actualky even have to exercise, you'll still lose..exercise is a bonus!

Hopefully I'll get back in here asap.. Just a quick post..


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## Juniperjules

Ps.. Excuse the ridiculous spelling mistakes (ie 'Hungary')!! I've tried to correct but I keep getting error messages!


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## Briss

*Juniperjules*, thank you! 

Thinking that I can do less than 500 was overly optimistic! but I am getting the point of having fast days &#8211; after being on 500 calories it seems like you can eat anything you want on a non fast day! I had lunch with fish/veg and dinner with grains and milk and lots of berries and some choc and did not even get to 1000 calories! and it was not hard and felt like I ate all I wanted. I think fasting days help you realise you can happily live on less food. obviously too early to make any conclusions we will see how I am doing in a couple of weeks. at the moment I am happily substituting choc with complex carbohydrates likes grains + whole milk in the evening. previously 50% of my diet came from choc and now it's down to 10-20%. I am happy that I can do that because it's obviously much better for the egg quality. still the strategy is to save most of my calorie intake for the evening as that's when I struggle most. 

I was not able to exercise at all yesterday but I am feeling back to normal today, did my stairs and am hoping for some more aerobics in the evening.


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## Vonn

Briss--way to go! I hope this works for you so you can lose while still TTC.

Juniper--be good to yourself. TTC can be stressful enough & it sounds like you've got other stressors going on too!

Hi Alison, nobump, threebirds, and Blythe!

I had a crazy strong secondary estrogen surge this month, but at least my temp recovered this morning. I always have a noticeable temp drop 6-7 DPO, but the last two months have been extra low. Maybe related the ovidrel? It seems to keep my temp from jumping as high as it usually does & I know it does mess with temps. Since I'm into the second half of the TWW, of course I am starting to over-analyze. Rein it in, woman! :blush:


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## Blythe

*Briss* - i made these earlier today - they are my second batch and are really delicious. Im guessing probably not a low cal option but something to keep in mind....

https://justalittleorganic.com/2014/05/oh-glows-classic-glo-bars/

you mentioned shampoo earlier...this one is sold in H&B and is the best shampoo every...i also use the conditioner and notice my hair is much better for using it.

https://www.biggreensmile.com/produ...ecdNdjJ5uxxcWsBtNgba46Fqsa2DEk_jlUaAmU_8P8HAQ

Inspired by your posts i too brought some sparkling water today and you are absolutely right - it was very filling. A secret weapon on the war against fat!

I was reading an e-book on the tube this morning about being happy and was nodding away when reading about 'Defeating Faulty Thinking'...its all very obvious stuff but worth repeating. She speaks about "our thoughts being shaped by what we've been in the habit of thinking about in the past. The pathways in your brain become more established each time you go down them, and the ones you don't use fade away....Each time you think about something, you're reinforcing that path in your brain."

Obviously its difficult to be positive about TTC when trying for years but i am determined to stop my negative thoughts around it dead in their tracks and start really believing this will happen for me again. i even purchased a prenatal and i think i may stick with it:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Vitamin-Co...8&qid=1420743922&sr=8-2&keywords=prenatal+raw

*Vonn* - i stopped temping a few months ago as i remember the daily obsession about it. I was looking at your chart yesterday and thought it looked like a good implantation dip but you say you had similar dips in previous months...odd! Anyhow, having obsessed over others charts for so long there is sometime no rhyme nor reason and the craziest charts end up in BFP. I will be watching your chart with everything crossed for you :flower:


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## alison29

Blythe i can't hear the positive thought self help enough. I am listening to one now about how if a thought makes you feel bad then you need to reword your thought so that it brings on a positive emotion or relief.

e.g:bad feeling thought: my kids are driving me crazy, they never stop bickering at each others throats every day. 

better thought: the bickering is allowing them to blow off steam, they don't seem bothered by it why should i be? No one is getting hurt, they will grow out of it.


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## alison29

My friend at work is having her IVF egg retrieval friday. There are 4 mature follcles. I thought this was very crap considering she has had four mature follicles at each IUI with a ton less medication. I guess they were trying to slow down one ovary and gave her (centrodide ?something like that a gonal f antagonist) sounds like they really screwed her over because there were 12 on one side and 4 on the other developing until that medication. I pray it works for her so bad.


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## Briss

*Vonn*, I like your chart! so hoping it's good news. 

*Blythe*, they look really delicious! I opted for porridge for dinner, basically I got different grains and make myself various types of porridge like millet porridge every evening, it's a lot of calories between 350-400 per portion with 1/2 pint of whole milk but it's so filling and unlike chocolate your stomach had some good food in it so i am set for the evening and do not feel hungry. it's 10 pm and I did not even get to 1000 calories yet and i feel full.

I will try your shampoo, looks good! thank you.

On fasting days, sparkling water is definitely my friend from now on :) interestingly I somehow and not intentionally cut down most of my choc! It's amazing really I am down to something like 20 gm a day which is nothing. with no effort! it just happened on its own. something to do with these fasting days I think

I like your prenatal vits. i stocked up on solgar's 

*alison*, I do not think cetrotide has any effect on follicle grown, it stops LH from surging (although it does not in my case). you start your cycle with lots of follicles but most will never grow even with stimulation but I agree it's strange that she got the same number of follicles on higher doses of stims. 

*afm*, I was offered to spend a week in Egypt - business class all around and every expense paid and with not a lot of work but it's next week and i had to say no :( depressing and a very wrong career move but what else could i do, i need to be in London for scans and bloods and may need to fly to Munich on thursday/friday. i think the partner was a bit shocked I refused to go and asked why. I was not prepared to discuss it and mumbled something about appointment in Munich :( luckily he did not ask any more questions but it all does not look good. it;s not the first business trip I rejected in the last 2 years but this is the first time the trip was more like a reward than work.


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## Vonn

Don't feel too badly, Briss; it's a generous offer to be sure, but it's next week! They can't be too shocked that someone would have obligations that would be difficult to get out of in less than a week's notice.


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## Briss

it's the City, you are expected to be chained to your blackberry and work 24/7 literally and I did for years actually, I had no life and was always available for work. a few years ago i would not even think for a second, I'd say yes and cancelled my plans as a matter of course. funny how things changed. I obviously feel guilty for not being available but I did not hesitate in refusing. I wish it was a different week though

counting days until my first scan :)


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## Blythe

*Briss* - how are you? Have you had first scan yet?

*Vonn* - i looked at your chart and saw some spotting. i know this does not mean you are out though...how are you feeling?

*Alison* - how is your friend's IVF going? i used cetrotide on my last cycle - it is a very common down reg drug. I wonder if it was that that affected the end result. anyhow, i hope they fertilised.


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## Vonn

Thanks for asking, Blythe. AF came yesterday evening. Boo! Good thing is that I had zero days of spotting, just several hours. I used to have up to 4 days of spotting before AF. 

Bad thing is that my luteal phase was only 10 days long. Pregnancy not possible with that. It had gone up to 12 days for a few months so I thought the acupuncture & herbs & supplements & progesterone & increased thyroid meds were improving that. Dang it!

I've got some ideas about what's going on and look forward to our first visit to a new RE this Friday. It's also the first visit that DH will be a part of. That will be really interesting!


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## Blythe

*Vonn* - I am sorry to see that AF arrived :flower: I always spot for a day - some months 3 or 4 days. It does not bother me anymore because i have seen so many women get BFPs with that issue but i have to say it is always quite reassuring when i only spot a little! I used to get it mid way through luteal phase - now that did bother me.

Pregnancy is possible with shorter luteal phases so please do not write yourself off.

Its good that your DH is coming with you to your first appt with new RE. Anytime mine has he has been mute and dumbfounded by it all - just a lot of nodding. Please report back - i would be interested to know what tests he/she is interested in running.


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## Briss

it's my fasting day :( made a decision to sacrifice all chocolate and instead had porridge with a tiny drop of milk for dinner. my today's portions are minuscule and yet I'm a little over 500 calories. so hungry... have not lost much weight yet despite being below 1000 on my non fasting days except for weekend where I got to 1200, i guess it will take some time before my body decides to give up and get energy from my reserves. unfortunately could not get myself to exercise over the weekend.

got a high on CBFM on day 7 which is early so it's possible i will be ovulating early despite taking EPO religiously. maybe due to taking progesterone last cycle, it probably messed it up a bit for me. my scan is tomorrow so we will see where I stand. 

my partner went to Egypt without me and is now not talking to me :( I hope I will still have my job after this cycle ...


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## Briss

Vonn, so sorry about AF. what's the plan for this cycle? are you going to do IUI?


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## Blythe

Briss. Well done for sticking to it. It will work. 

I'm so sorry your partner is being off with you.....I hate that sort of stuff. You sound so incredibly contiensious and he must know your background, I mean in terms of going to extra mile at work. So things have changed.... Only a bufoon would think that is due to not caring anymore. 

They will come round and you will no doubt be in a position where you pull them out of a hole. It will be fine so just focus on what is important...gearing up for pregnancy.


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## Briss

Blythe, thanks! I surely hope he sees it that way. we have ladies at work who are pregnant and yet travel on business and work long hours and if I got pregnant quickly I will be the same but after TTC for so many painful years and also considering my age/egg reserve every month counts. i just can't afford to waste a single month. Obviously i can't offer this explanation to him. I blamed it on unidentified health issues but I think he did not think it was sufficient. it's getting harder to make excuses to travel every month on short notice and come late for work because I have scans/bloods.


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## nobump

Briss, I think it is good that you turned the trip down, if he had offered for you to take you other half and get pampered then it may have been worth it!

On BBC 2 Scotland there is a program on -> What's the right diet for you? not sure if you can get it on iplayer, I have only just switched through the channels, think they are asking different groups to try different diets, including the 5:2 diet or intermittent fasting diet as they are calling it. May be worth looking at.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/articles/28kV5mpZvcDtJ2hyDbZ5h1p/what-s-the-right-diet-for-you


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## Briss

*nobump*, it's funny that you should mention this programme, I took a test on BBC's website today just for fun and I think it was from this programme. basically apparently I am an emotional eater :) (I do not believe this because i do not care about food unless it's a cake!) and my perfect diet turned out to be intermittent fasting diet i.e. 2:5!! how funny is this!


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## Briss

Just had my day 8 scan and not sure what to make of it. I do not have a dominant follicle. The largest is only 7.5 mm. Usually by day 9 I have at least 16 mm dominant follicle. Does this mean I am going to ovulate later than usual and the follicle is just taking its time to grow or something is not right about this cycle? My lining is 8.7 which is as it should be so it's basically ready for ovulation. My CBFM has been giving my HIGH readings last two days so I guess my estrogen must be high and I thought I will be ovulating soon. Now I am just puzzled. Still waiting for my blood test results of this morning and a response from the clinic.


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## Blythe

Briss. Didn't you stop the epo earlier last cycle? I think it is that delaying it....


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## Briss

just got my blood test results and they are even more disappointing and confusing. my LH is quite high at 12 so looks like my body wants to ovulate soon but estrogen is lower than usual at below 600 (while on previous cycles when I had a dominant follicle it was 1,400-1,800 on day 9). I really do not know what to make of it. my largest follicle needs at least 5 days to grow to 18 mm but high LH means there wont be time for it to grow/mature. what is my body doing? 

I did not stop EPO this cycle (but I will from today), I know it's supposed to delay my ovulation but had no idea it could be messing up with my follicle growth?? could this really be EPO doing? maybe fasting does not help my follicles to grow properly?


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## Briss

also got a response from Munich which is yet another disappointment. Apparently my doctor is not in today so I should contact him tomorrow! what if I was supposed to be triggered tonight? anyway, whoever responded thought that I already ovulated because my progesterone was elevated at 1.8 ng/ml. I am now beyond confused. How is this possible it's only day 8, my temp is still low and I thought 1.8 is rather low for ovulation? There only way this could possible happen if urtogestan really mess up my cycle by delaying my period so that there was a mismatch between the start of the next cycle (i.e. AF) and follicle development which started a few days earlier. This could logically explain abnormally early ovulation if follicles started growing 3-4 days before I got my AF but is this really possible?

I think there only way to find out is to do another scan and bloods on Thursday or even Friday.


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## alison29

Wow that is so confusing Briss I am sorry about this cycle so disappointing..AFM I am just cheering on my friend at work going through her cycle. She learned today that 3 made it to 3 days, and they are hoping for one or two to implant Friday. I sure hope they have one or two. It's so scary going through IVF.


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## Vonn

Whoa, massive confusion, Briss! Sorry to hear about it. And not impressive about the dr just being out. They should totally have another dr step in for the time being, maybe they would if you did need triggering & the nurse thought this could wait a day. Even though of course you are distressed and want to understand exactly what's going on & why. People who work in the profession can get so desensitized to how personal and emotional all this is. I'll be really curious to see what the next scan reveals.


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## Briss

Thank you, ladies!

What a disappointing day :( on top of my scan/blood situation I have to work very late tonight and it's also my second fasting day this week! total misery

Ladies who have gone through many natural IVFs say that things like this happen every 3rd or 4th cycle. I have to say it's all new to me, I was sure I was ovulating every month.


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## nobump

Briss not sure I understand all that is going on with your cycle. Is there a risk that you won't be asked to triffer this cycle? 

Xxx


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## Briss

nobump, I am not entirely sure myself what's going on but I think there are two options: (i) I ovulated super early like CD 7 which means too late for the trigger (still puzzled why sonographer did not notice any signs of ovulation on today's scan), (ii) my follicles are taking their time to grow so i may still ovulate later. There is obviously a third one that this is a complete mess and no ovulation. they can only trigger me if there is a dominant follicle of preferable over 18 mm and ready for ovulation.


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## Blythe

Briss - i suspect a late ovulation - are you going for a scan thurs or fri? I am thinking of you and hoping for some positive news at next scan.


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## nobump

Hopefully late ovulation. Let us know how your scans go.

Xx


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## Briss

today on day 9 my temperature went up so it looks as though I already ovulated by day 8 of my cycle &#8211; shockingly the Munich team seemed to be right about elevated progesterone levels. when I saw my temp this morning I was devastated and did not even think I could get out of bed. I did in the end because I have to work but I am so upset, cried all the way to work just could not help the tears. what happened??

This is extremely unusual for me to have ovulation by day 8, I check my temperature and hormones every cycle for over 3 years and I have never ovulated so early before. I blame this on progesterone. My body does not seem to respond well to any hormonal interference even as harmless as progesterone. So many ladies are taking progesterone after O to help implantation and they are all fine. why would I have such a drastic reaction? I mean honestly day 8 ovulation?? One time (in 2012) I ovulated on day 9 but I had laparoscopy that cycle and they really messed with my ovaries there so that's a good reason for my body to drop the egg so early. but what happened this time to make such impact? 

I honestly did not see this coming. but then I only had ET+progestrone twice and the first time I had a chemical and started spotting on 10 DPO so when I stopped progesterone I got my period the next day but it was really a mc rather than period. I feel I need to understand if this could be the effect of taking progesterone. otherwise how can I go forward with natural IVF if I have to skip every other cycle because I ovulate so early?


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## Briss

on a more positive note, I finally saw a tiny drop in my weight this morning! I was getting depressed as I have not lost anything. I mean I lost quite a bit the first few days after I started but this was just water not real weight loss and after that there was nothing, so depressing. but today finally a change! My weight is still outrages and I am not even close to my weight when I started dieting for the first time 1.5 years ago but still nice.


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## Blythe

Briss. You have have had your peak yet......I sometimes get big temp spikes pre ovulation. I hope it has gone back down tomorrow and the scan shows a nice follie. 

I'm really sorry you had such a horrid start to the day. 

Great about the weight loss.....I am inspired to join you.


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## Briss

I feel quite broken today.

Was trying to get Dr Hana's advice (my doc at reprofit) on this but she is off sick with a flu. 

the doctor in Munich asked me to repeat scan/bloods tomorrow. he did not respond to my question just said he did not think taking progesterone last cycle was why my progesterone levels are elevated this cycle. But that's not what I asked. I feel there is a very strong language barrier with the Munich, their English is very limited and I cant seem to be able to explain my concerns&#8230; how frustrating 

I do get temp spikes sometime before O but I actually do feel it was due to ovulation this time. my sex drive disappeared but it might be due to stress at work (had to work past midnight last night). 

re diet, the fasting days are really hard but then after that you feel so happy that you can eat everything but in fact you do not really eat that much, somehow you do not need to. I obviously need to spend more time on this diet to understand how it works but so far I am inspired and I think there is something to it. and it's much easier to manage two fasting days than having every day as low calorie day as I used to. 

if I do not get to Munich this week how will I explain my refusal for the Egypt trip? My lies are catching up with me, I need to invent some other imposition that prevented me from travelling to Munich now&#8230; or take a day off and stay at home pretending I am in Munich&#8230;


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## Blythe

Briss - i have put on weight since xmas and want to get back into losing. I am going to attempt my first fast day tomorrow.

i have just been reading a book a picked up earlier today on the way home from work [from local second hand shop] - it is:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Fertility-...e+fertility+diet+sarah+dobbyn#customerReviews

and there is a bit about pre ovulation surges...i quote:

"canadian scientists found that all women have than one wave or peak period during the menstrual cycle when the follicles in the woman's ovaries prepare to release an egg.......for 60% of women there is one surge before ovulation itslf, when a follicle frows to 10mm ie a size capable of being released; and in the remaining 40% of women thre are two of these surges - each leading to a follicle developing to 10mm or larger leading the big event itself."

https://esask.uregina.ca/entry/follicular_waves.html

I am not sure about the detail here, particularly follie size. I will see if i can find the full report.

However, it might explain why i get EWCM around CD8 and then it disappears to return a few days later. i wish i could be scanned and bloods taken on every day of cycle to get a better idea of what the heck is going on.

I hate not knowing what is going on and i hate not having control over absolutely everything! But we just have to hand over that control when it comes to this stuff - i have found the circle and bloom meditations quite good and try and focus on developing eggs etc - it helps me focus on minute detail and breathing properly. I have yet to feel i have properly 'gone under' though. 

Have you got anything you can listen to for 10/15 mins RIGHT NOW to just to give yourself a break from the stress of thinking about what could be going on.

all this aside - i hate to think of you being upset. i really think this cycle will be ok - a bit wonky and unlike recent ones but ok. Please update after tomorrows scan. Briss - it will happen for you - I know it!! please dont get upset anymore :flower:


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## Briss

Blythe, thank you so much for your constant support! It means a lot to me! it's just that i had my mind set on trying every cycle and I feel quite upset when we waste a cycle for any reason. I also feel like I can count all my remaining cycles :( 

it's very interesting about pre ovulation surges, I did have higher temps before O in the past which I thought was a sign of heat and it actually got better after acu/herbs. I did not know this could be my body trying to O and stopping. Something to think about. if it was after my natural cycle I'd feel curious as to what happens but I'd go with my body. On this occasion I'm quite sure it's the effect of progesterone from the previous cycle so my body is trying to react to what I put it through , I think. I also suspect this has something to do with my general issue of ovulating earlier and having high FSH. Cant explain it but my instinct tells me that these things are somehow related. 

I thought I'd share what one lady said about my issue, she also did several back to back natural IVFs in Europe before getting pregnant with retrofit (by adopting an embryo I think): "_I looked at my old notes to see if there is some similarity with your case and, to my surprise, you are right! I had to cancel each cycle after the "successful" one (with ET). My follicles were small and my bloods were high. Could be just a coincidence, BUT... I think that your dr from Munich doesn't have an answer because I doubt that there is a reliable study on this topic_." in a strange way this made me feel so much better, like I am not going crazy by suggesting this could be to do with ET/Progesterone from my previous cycle. 

Reprofit unfortunately could not explain the reason for what's happening to my cycle the doc said though progesterone might postpone natural period it also stops ovulation so follicles should not start growing while you are still on progesterone. she is more inclined to think this is anovulatory cycle as sometimes body does what it wants. also she did not think reprofit will do IMSI in near future as they don´t find it beneficial for pregnancy rates.

I've been meaning to try the circle and bloom meditations for ages, really need to do it. 

best of luck with your fasting day! It's going to be hard at first so stick to sparkling water it will get easier. you will feel triumphant the next day :)

The first thing that immediately happened to me after I started dieting is my huge tummy disappeared, I do not look pregnant anymore :) nothing still fits cos I did not get any smaller but it's a big change to my look so i am happy.


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## Vonn

I haven't done IVF & don't know the protocol, so sorry for the ignorance, but do you go on high levels of progesterone? Does it have to be so high?

I only ask because I take progesterone and it doesn't prevent anything from happening, getting my period, next month's ov, etc. I've got issues, though, and maybe I am not on enough progesterone, so I may be a horrible comparison!

The scan will tell you a lot tomorrow. Look forward to getting to the bottom of the mystery month.

Blythe--The info about a pre-ov temp rise is really interesting. I've noticed that happen a few times on my cycle & always wondered what it might mean. Thanks for sharing!


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## Briss

*Vonn*, you are so right! That's exactly what puzzles me - so many ladies just take progesterone after O to extend their LP or get rid of pre AF spotting etc Why am I reacting like this? Just does not make any sense, i alway thought progesterone was the most harmless of all hormones. and I agree maybe it's the dose or length maybe I should take less next time and stop or reduce after 11-12 DPO? but I was hoping the clinics would advise on this but they are just not connecting it to ET/Progesterone. 

what is your plan for this cycle? 

I ate so much grapes that went beyond 1000 calories, at least it's not chocolate :) I do need to get more exercise


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## Vonn

I know Galvan once was taking progesterone and had to stop it because she thought it was artificially keeping temps high and preventing AF. Not sure how much she was on or if it caused wonkiness next cycle for her. I thought it was bizarre since progesterone certainly never has done that for me.

As for my plan this month, I go (with DH) to a new RE on Friday. I'll be really interested to see what this dr has to say. I'm working on my list of questions!


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## Briss

*Vonn*, good luck with your appointment with the new RE. I hope he can answer all your questions. I also usually put together a list, sometimes doctors laugh when they see my list but I do not really care as long as I get as much info as I need from the appointment. 

If progesterone does not stop your AF you may need to up your dose but obviously under medical supervision. Progesterone's role is indeed to keep your temp up and prevent AF. as long as you take progesterone you should not be getting AF. so usually if a lady has short LP say 10 days she would take progesterone so her AF comes later and LP is longer to allow implantation to take place. Sometime you go on holiday and want your AF to come after you are back so you take progesterone until the end of your holiday so you could have a swim without having to use tampons etc as soon as your progesterone levels drop whether naturally or because you stopped taking progesterone it's a signal to the body that AF should start because there is no pregnancy. that's one line of hormones AF-Progesterone. At the same time you have oestrogen &#8211; follicles development line of hormones that happen in parallel. to put it simply (although it's obviously far more complicated and no one really knows exactly how this works as far as I gathered from my reading), as your progesterone starts to go down usually from about 10 DPO or so, your estrogen levels (and FSH as well I think) start rising to prepare new follicles for the next cycle. theoretically the start of follicle development should coincide with the start of AF but I guess it's not always like that. and when you take progesterone there is a gap between you stopping it and your body being ready for AF &#8211; several days. My view is that follicles can start developing during that gap while your actual cycle has not started yet &#8211; hence abnormally early ovulation. One thing that was strange about this cycle is my period was suddenly cut short after 5 days &#8211; that's super rare for me and it usually happens during IVF when I take FSH, so my immediate thought was that my FSH is high which means I will be ovulating early but I obviously did not expect anything like day 8 ovulation.

my temp is still up this morning so looks like I will be wasting 400 pounds on scans and bloods only to confirm that this cycle is over.

My weight is also up &#8211; that's just annoying! I was so hoping yesterday's drop was real but looks like it was just due to water fluctuation. so my real weight has not changes since I started dieting. I am not discouraged because I know it will take a bit of time to get my body realise that it needs to start using reserve rather than trying to survive on my current calorie intake. I really need to add exercise to help my body alone. Definitely tonight!


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## Briss

My today's bloods showed that progesterone levels have increased a lot suggestive of ovulation and since my temp has been up I reconciled to the fact that it's all over this cycle. I was not even sure I was going for a scan &#8211; seemed like a waste of money. The scan actually made it all even more confusing than before. On one hand it showed that one of the follicles on the left side had irregular shape and a signs of haemorrhage &#8211; suggestive of rapture/ovulation. however, at the same time my estrogen levels have also increased and follicles have actually grown since Tuesday (the largest were 12.9/10.3/9.4 compared to 7.5/6.4/5.1 on Tuesday)!! How is this even possible to have both estrogen and progesterone increasing?? progesterone is supposed to stop follicles from developing and yet they are growing. I do not even know what to think anymore


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## Vonn

Oh my goodness, Briss, I thought for sure today's scan would clarify everything! Is it possible things got so messed up that you might actually ramp up to ov again? I hope the Munich dr can shed some light on this. And I am really surprised their English is not very good. I thought most all were practically fluent in it as they start taking it in 5th grade. At least that was the case when I was an exchange student there many years ago!

I wish I had known that taking progesterone could delay my AF last April when I got AF on the 2nd day of my honeymoon! I figured there was no way around it as we were TTC so I certainly wasn't on any bc.

For me, I think my progesterone is being blocked from doing its job well by my thyroid. I know it can really interfere. I think this because my progesterone result was very high--26--at 7 DPO, but my cycle indicates low P, so something is messing up its work. Plus, I have other nagging thyroid issues so I know I am not optimally treated yet. On the list to talk to my new RE about!!


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## Blythe

Briss - not sure what to make of all that info....how confusing. i hope the Dr comes back to you soon and with some clear advice. 

My fasting day went well until I came home and ate beans on toast..followed by 5 squares of dark choc..I had a headache from lack of food and just could not stand it anymore. It's also so cold I needed something warm to eat. 

I will go shopping after work tomorrow and stock up on veg. 

I really hope this cycle turns out to be a goer. How enormously frustrating and upsetting it must be for you.


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## Briss

got my verdict today &#8211; no surprises: "progesterone indicates ovulation already happened so repeat scan/bloods on day 7 of your next cycle". the doc did not answer any of my questions as to why and what's happening with estrogen and follicle growth. I will be sending my forms and documents to Gennet next week to start the process with them as their waiting list is quite long but I am still giving Munich a chance. after all they were really spot on saying from the outset that ovulation took place. even though at the time it seemed ridiculous to me. honestly day 8 ovulation?? WTF! my CBFM is as confused as I am so it's high all the way. probably can stop testing now and save some sticks. Shame I started testing on day 7 this cycle, may it would have given me a peak on day 6. we'll never know now. I am not even sure this was proper ovulation, the follicle cant just disappear, in case of ovulation it collapses but it's still there and they can usually see it changes it's colour and form. on day 8 there was no such follicle or maybe they just did not see it cos they were not looking for it. The sonographers are pretty useless I must say, they keep thinking my cyst is a dominant follicle pretty much every time 

I also contacted another clinic in Munich but they have not responded yet. 

no weight loss so far&#8230; last week and this week my weight is the same, how disappointing. I actually also could not stop eating last night, we went to see Swan Lake and obviously one glass of Champaign after the other, then ice cream and some snacks &#8211; in the end I went over 1,300 calories. On fasting days I find it helpful if I save most of my calories for the evening &#8211; that's when I really struggle. determined to carry on with 2:5 but I really need to add exercise. I actually ordered some of older J Fonda workouts, they finally put them on DVDs but not sure yet if they play on my machine, they are US region. They are the only types of workout I can actually enjoy and stick to.

I am not sure about headache, I can see how being cold can make you want to eat. maybe you could try a small amount of hot porridge for dinner? it's warming and filling and it helps me a lot. also maybe some hot stew or stimmed veg?


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## Blythe

Just a quick one. If you go via oe cycle no waiting list.


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## Briss

Blythe, thanks. do you know if the price is the same? 

just had an hour with J fonda, feel like million dollars! I really jumped around so hopefully my weight loss can finally kick in


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## Blythe

which jane fonda do you do- i was looking on line and not sure which one to go for?

consultation refundable against treatment - all scans included in one cost - so £746 580 payable up to day of ec and final 166 payable on day of et]

and if selected additional cost of following 

PICSI = £124
IMSI = £544 
embroyglue = £91


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## Blythe

hang on - i meant to say....


natural cycle ivf is £746 in total - with 580 payable up to the day of EC and then remaining amount payable upon transfer


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## Briss

I have these two at the moment:

https://www.amazon.com/Jane-Fonda-C...42593&sr=8-12&keywords=jane+fonda+workout+dvd

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Complete-W...41598&sr=8-12&keywords=jane+fonda+workout+dvd

the price is a bit ridiculous though they were 20 pounds when i got them

outfits and hairstyles are just so funny! and the moves as well, some of them make me laugh but I guess that's the whole point, I do not take it seriously and have a lot of fun and that's why I stick to it. they are structured quite cleverly so you can pick and chose which bits you want to do and mix and match aerobics and weight lifting exercises. 

I also just ordered her very old ones but not sure they will work here (I'm counting on my DH's genius to make them play here somehow):

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Jane-Fonda...441598&sr=8-4&keywords=jane+fonda+workout+dvd

https://www.amazon.co.uk/JANE-FONDA...441598&sr=8-5&keywords=jane+fonda+workout+dvd

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Jane-Fonda...441598&sr=8-6&keywords=jane+fonda+workout+dvd

https://www.amazon.co.uk/JANE-FONDA...41598&sr=8-11&keywords=jane+fonda+workout+dvd

they are all about 10 pounds each and I think any one of those is good but I like variety. If I remember the sequence it stops being fun so I change the routine (or simple forget as I do them like once a year...)

so that price is the same regardless as to where you go City or Prague? I am putting together all my notes and forms and just wonder whether i should send it to CR email address or the City one?

Just counted 30 grapes for a snack :)


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## Blythe

Brill thanks for links and recommendations. 

Yes same price. 

I love Fonda!! I'm going to get one or see if I can download from iTunes. 

I had a handful of Brazil nuts today and a large number of herbal teas and miso soup to make it through the day. I went beyond hunger but then had chilli when I came home. Still I have eaten half of what I usually eat and I feel better. I will continue counting calories and hopefully see some resits soon.


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## nobump

You girls are doing great with your diets.

I'm not counting calories but made large pot of soup and been eating that for the past 2 days at lunch and with dinner. Dinner was soup and something. Slice quiche or a few chicken pakora. So probably blew calories with the something. Oh and jad some fruit cider last night. 

Feel like AF is round the corner. Hoping it will come early. Want next month's to come earlier otherwise it will hit while we are away.

Dont really remember Fonda. Have got a dvd that Marteen from EE did a few years back which I like as it is split into 5 to 10 min sections so you can do all or warm up, any sections and cool down. Need to dig it out. 

Xx


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## Blythe

Oh yes i remember Martine mccutcheon - i remember also borrowing an exercise video off a friend - it was Patsy off EE - it was actually really really good. It was set in a nightclub so should have been awful but i remember doing it for months!

I have been eying up some of the davina dvds - the new one is 7 minute sections but last years was 15 minute sections - it has lots of good reviews on amazon.

i have been doing this quite a bit and it works:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cGv6BM9YTRs

I feel like making a nice big pot of stew - it feels like it might snow today so soup would be perfect. I will trawl my new cookbooks later and make something new. this one looks pretty hearty:
https://ohsheglows.com/2012/11/30/black-bean-sweet-potato-and-red-quinoa-soup/

I woke up hungry this morning and that felt really good.....


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## Blythe

Briss - are you ok? I meant to say yesterday about your cycles that I'm so sorry that you won't be going over to Munich. I see you did manage a bd before ovulation which is good. 

I wonder if the UK progesterone will be bettter suited to you. It was comforting to see that other lady who had the same issue with progesterone is now pregnant. 

I know there are no silver linings but this extra couple of weeks will give you time to get down to your ideal weight ready for your pregnancy. It's going to be a good year briss and I know it will result in pregnancy for us.


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## Briss

I noticed a bit of weight loss this morning but hard to say whether this is real, it keeps going up and down but I need to stick to this diet for at least a month before making any conclusions. tomorrow will be two weeks. 

I did some more aerobics and stretching today, and I actually felt more energetic. I was expecting to veg on my sofa all day after the exercise but instead I went out and walked for about 2 hours! I popped into H&M on my way back and bought a skirt size 12 :( I felt I needed to treat myself and also I think my limited wardrobe is becoming apparent in the office. I have literary been wearing the same 3 things since my IVF in August. 

nobump, soups are the best food for losing weight so I am sure this will work. I have not seen Martine mccutcheon's dvd but any dance workout is fab I think 

Blythe, that arms workout is great! My arms are a disgrace :( so flabby I do not know why but I tend to get most of my extra weight around tummy and arms.

Black Bean, Sweet Potato, and Red Quinoa Soup looks really good! have you made it? Unfortunately I do not really cook. I can only make super simple things. today we had greek salad and some smoked salmon :) it was cold but I was so hungry after my walk I found it super delicious 

unfortunately we did not BD (it was a BJ but I put any ejaculation as BD on my chart so I know how often sperm gets "reviewed"). zero chance this cycle. even if we BD I am not sure it would make any difference because day 8 is just too early for things to grow/mature properly. am quite upset by the whole thing but I am trying to focus on my diet/weight loss to distract myself from what happened. 

Dovkav was able to do natural IVF every cycle but I actually noticed that since she started he ovulation/EC moved to day 11/12. so I think it's similar to what I have it's just I ovulate on day 11 to begin with so it shifts even earlier to day 8 after progesterone. but I am convinced it's to do with progesterone or ET. I need to discuss it with somebody and make certain adjustment to my hormones after ET because I just can't miss out like that every other cycle. I am literally counting every egg at this point. 

btw that other lady is pregnant with donor's help, so that does not really help my situation. but at least I know she was not able to proceed with natural IVF every month because of similar issue.

I may try UK progesterone, I still have a lot from my failed NHS cycle or maybe get a German one in Munich or maybe none at all because when I had EC with no eggs my LP was still 14 days so my body is able to produce progesterone after EC. 

I have a moral dilemma. I friend of DH's was complaining to him the other day that I never visited their newborn. it's their second son and he is now 3 or 4 I think. It's hard cos it's DH's best friend but even then this visit will course unbearable pain to be sure and the recollection of this visit will torment me for many weeks to come. I do not visit my own friends' newborns leave alone Dh's friends. I probably come across as very unfeeling person but after the nervous breakdown I had last year after such a visit. I just can't do it to myself. and yet I cannot explain as none will understand or find my reasons justified because they are popping out babies like there is no tomorrow and just can't relate to my pain.


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## Blythe

Briss - i had not thought of that but you are absolutely right re progesterone - why bother at all as you have never had issues re prog have you? I think its a necessity with medicated IVF to help turn the tide of taking those shitty stims. That is one of the great things about working with natural cycles.


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## Briss

they told that when they do EC there is a possibility that the follicle won't be producing progesterone normally as in case with natural ovulation but I think i could ask if maybe worth while do progesterone blood test to check the levels and if they are low then add some progesterone. just something to discuss next time.

in stim cycles you get disbalance between oestrogen and progesterone: you get many follicles are producing oestrogen so there is a lot of it and then some of these follicles will not be producing progesterone and also some continue to grow and produce even more oestrogen. every time I had stims and did not take progesterone because there was no ET I had shorter LP, last time it was only 10 days. but in a natural IVF it must be more balanced. 

DH did not push me at all, I told him I simply can't go because I won't be able to and he said it's fine but I just know his friend will think I am being really rule or I am trying to break their friendship or something like this. I have been telling DH that we will go visit them once I am safely pregnant but it's taking years ...

A friend just called me, I was dreading this call for days. She has a 4 year old and I find it hard so I never call her. last time we spoke was 1.5 years ago. I was afraid she will announce another baby and will ask about mine. we did talk about her daughter for a bit but mostly she wanted to hear about my life my career my travels and it turns out I have a good life :) I am so miserable in my TTC nightmare that I do not realise that actually compare to somebody who gave up her career to look after her child I have pretty interesting life. it's just seems so strange but I am happy we did not talk about things that cause me pain, things that really matter to me


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## Blythe

*Vonn* - i have been reading this book:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Fertility-Diet-Sarah-Dobbyn/dp/1847372007

you will see there are mixed reviews and i have to say i agree with some of the points raised in the more negative reviews. However, some useful stuff in there. You may already know all of this but i thought i would tap it out just in case.

i was reading the section on thyroid....

*foods to optimise thyroid function:*

calcarea carbonica 
cayenne pepper
coconut
pure water
radish
sea veg/iodine [healthy level 500 mcg] - see below
thyroid glandular supplements
tyrosine - see below
zeolite - can be used to remove heavy metals from body
thyme
tempeh

*foods to avoid:*
stimulants
food and products containing iodine - see above
foods containing tyrosine - see above
cough and cold meds containing decongestants

there are caveats to above but too much to note here - im quite sure you have read most stuff about optimising thyroid function.

she also has a section on sunlight. I went on a mini fertility retreat a while back and one of the ladies recommended getting natural light for at least 20 mins a day - without glasses/contacts etc. i spend most of my working day in a windowless room and have short lunches. I also wear contacts - so a bit buggered on this front really. Its all linked to the pineal gland, melatonin, vit d intake etc Its hard to go and sit outside at lunchtime for 20 mins when its so darn cold!!

There is also a section on lunaception and circadian rhythm - it sounds fascinating really and i am going to try and find out some more.

How did the consultation go?


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## Briss

Just compared my average weight for last week vs this week and I lost about 260 gm in a week - how disappointing


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## Blythe

Hey Briss - do you feel better though? i hope you are not feeling too discouraged and you will keep up the great work. i retain weight for ages then it just goes quite quickly, well it usually does when i stick to a healthy reduced cal eating plan.

i had acu earlier - she felt my pulses and i would usually quiz her afterwards but i dont want to hear anything negative at the moment so i just kept quite and wait for the nice head massage at the end. I then went to TK Maxx and tried on some tops - the 3 way mirror was too much and i could see back fat! i left with nothing...


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## Briss

I can't say I feel better, my tummy looks much flatter which is great but otherwise it's the same. I feel good about aerobics and more energy after that. it's only been two weeks so I just need to carry on. 

i decided to let myself eat what I want today so had my favourite poppy seed pastry, followed 4 cookies and chocolate. I will have chicken and salad for dinner and probably some more chocolate. will probably get to about 1400 calories :( but then it's fasting tomorrow

had reflexology at my local chinese place. not a pleasurable experience but I just feel so good afterwards like I got new feet. 

a friend invited me for lunch but I just could not go, she had IVF at the same clinic and the same time as me but she ended up with twins and I with intra abdominal bleeding. I can't spend an afternoon steering at her bump thinking it could have been me :(

I love TK Maxx! but I know what you mean about the mirrors, i still have 1.5 kg to lose before I will be my old fatty self. can't believe how things changed after that last IVF. 

I am gradually getting my head around the idea I probably won't have second child, there simply won't be time. even if I get pregnant this year I will have a child closer or after I am 40 so will start TTC for my second after 41. considering the first child is taking 5 years.... maths is terrible I started TTC thinking I want 3 children... and then maybe one more


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## Briss

I am already over 1500 calories and can't stop eating :( I guess seeing no weight loss did play on my mind, my motivation just can't stand against hunger when I see no result despite adding exercise. very disappointing. hopefully I can still carry on tomorrow with my fasting days.


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## nobump

Have you tried recording your measurements. Waist, breast, hips etc muscle is heavier than fat you may more toned.

Can appreciate not wanting to meet your fiend. Its hard for me seeing my new neice with my mum... as she should have the granchild I bore in her hands...


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## Briss

I was a bit of a pig yesterday and reached 1800 calories!!! woke up hungry. fasting today

nobump, I measured myself yesterday and my measurements have not changed since last November. not an inch 

I am hoping that this is my body not letting go of the fat but at some point it will and I will finally start losing weight. but it could possible be that this diet just does not work for me and I need to go back to 800 calories a day on chocolate. don't want to do that yet as I still want to make the dieting work around my natural IVF so my eggs are still good.


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## Vonn

Hi ladies! 

Blythe--You're so well read on this front. Any general food tips that were especially cool to learn? Thanks for mentioning the thyroid diet stuff, I appreciate it. Some I was familiar with, some I wasn't. I had to look up calcarea carbonica. Some also match up with the anti-candida diet I am trying to be very diligent about. It totally sucks and I am scared about how long I will have to be on it. I am also scared that I may pass the candida on to my DH and to a baby, this thought just crossed my mind the other day. I can say giving up dairy, gluten, alcohol, nearly all processed foods and added sugar could be an effective weight loss tool. It's also awful. I just want to eat ice cream and cookies sooo badly! 

Briss--any chance you could not weigh yourself for awhile? Just focus on how the exercising & eating less makes you feel instead. If it's true you are exercising more and eating less, the pounds have to start coming off at some point. You are doing a great job of reasoning with yourself that this is indeed the case. You are right!

My DH and I went to the RE last Friday. The dr wasn't outright mean, but was more old-school than I care for. He gives very little credence to the tests and vitamins/supplements my integrative dr has ordered. I believe her way of looking holistically at the body is the medicine of the future, so when he basically dismissed her work, my thought was, "Here we go again..." 

I figured he would push IVF big-time, but he suggested three cycles of medicated IUIs first. He said we'd counsel after that to discuss next steps, if unsuccessful. I think he wants to see how my body responds to stimulated egg production. He kind of knocked IVF (with my eggs) for someone my age with most likely poor egg quality. He said it's often tough to stimulate enough egg production & natural IVF is very expensive for the chances. He talked about IVF using donor eggs as a great option for people in our situation and I started crying. Awkward. That option needs processing time. 

I asked him about my progesterone and also asked about the use of melatonin, dhea & if there are any aids for egg quality. He totally blew me off. Said I wasn't seeing the forest for the trees. I said my take on it is that if there is _anything_ I can do to help my situation, I will. He basically said there's nothing I can do. 

So basically according to him, the only treatments that do any good are those that men like him in white lab coats have come up with in the last 50 yrs. How very presumptuous of him. Didn't leave me with a great impression. Of course, DH liked him, thought he was no nonsense. DH also thought it was positive that he placed the IUI chances at 9%. It made me feel defeated as the flip side is 91% failure rate. Ugh. But they are covered by insurance so we should definitely take advantage. We'll start next cycle as he wants to redo CD 3 tests. 

I'm really trying to feel positive, next steps and all. But it is hard. This sh*t is hard. Sorry for the rant, but I really needed to get this out. Thanks for listening.


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## Briss

*Vonn*, I think most women have candida. I am certainly one of them. in our almost 5 years TTC I never passed it to DH. I do not actually think you can pass this on, it's not an infection it's your own cells there are just too many of them. as far as I know you can only pass it to your baby during birth, it seems similar to herpes in that sense if you have an outbreak at that time they would probably recommend c section.

I just hate it when clinics start pushing donor eggs at women! this is outrages! they are only thinking about improving their success rates. to me this is usually the sign that I need to change clinics as they have run out of options and have no expertise to help with my situation. next! 

certainly look into IUI (9% is not bad at all!) but if he is going to stimulate you for IUI then why not IVF? ladies over 40 can have excellent results with IVF. natural IVF is not cheap but as you can see from my experience you can always find clinics willing to do that cheaper abroad. I am very sorry he made you cry. they lose their sensitivity after working for years in this business. do not take it personally, you are fine and you can get pregnant. you just need help preferably from somebody who knows what they are doing. 

I have to say that there is a part of me that agrees with your doc re supplements etc, they may play their small part but they are weak compared to other options. for example, me taking progesterone screwed my cycle big time - i am amazed how powerful these meds are so if they are used correctly you can get great results and fast. you won't get that with vitamins. I spent a lot of time about 2 years on vitamins, lifestyle changes, TCM etc but in some situations more drastic measures are required. IVF is not always the answer but certainly something to consider. I am happy you started the process. a lot of ladies get lucky on their first go. fingers crossed!

*afm*, I am raging today like a boiling kettle one annoying thought after another and before I know it I am so angry I can scream. everything angers me tonight. I think it's too much Yang - I was thinking about what happened with my cycle after taking progesterone and also remembered how Dr E was going to change my herbal treatment: from trying to nourish my Yin to trying to cool down my Yang which was supposed to help increase Yin. so this got me thinking that progesterone (basically Yang) must have really affected my poor Yin (because I must have too much Yang and made it even worse by taking even more Yang in a form of progesterone) which is deficient to begin with - early ovulation is always a sign of deficient Yin so here you are mystery solved. I must have too much Yang and made it even worse by taking even more Yang in a form of progesterone. It makes perfect sense to me but obviously any western doctor will think this some kind of voodoo non-sense :)

I was properly fasting all day, had nothing but one cappuccino until about 8 pm. had plenty of chicken broth and chicken for dinner. chicken broth is so tricky in terms of calories I am not sure I got it right. I put it at about 40-60 calories per cup. hopefully I did not exceed my 500 today. 

researching clinics in Spain. people seem happy with the quality of service and standards are higher than in the UK but it's not as cheap as CR or Germany and they are not super keen on natural IVF.


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## Vonn

Thank you, Briss! That was reassuring. I agree with you about the power of western medicine treatments, but I also think if other things (acu, vitamins, herbs, etc.) can help in small ways, all the better. I'm happy to add a bunch of small helps onto the big guns. 

I'm not really in a position to fire this dr. Not yet, at least. I have fired 5 drs in the past year and a half, so if I say I don't want to go back to this one my DH will think I've gone off the deep end. It's the first appt he's been to and he liked the guy well enough. I'm glad he was there, but even so he still doesn't get how difficult it is to hear that your chances of having your own baby are very low. 

I so look forward to the day when I can prove all these dang drs wrong!!!

nobump and alison--how are you two?


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## alison29

Hi Guys,
I am good got af the other day. I think i am going to do some femara cycles since relaxing isn't getting me anywhere. I think it could help me with my wacko hormones since IVF isn't in the cards for me I want to do something. I may also do some acupuncture though but not sure. The place i can use my medical reimbursement card doesn't say it treats infertility on website but I am hoping that they do anyway.

Briss it could also be the fasting causing mood swings maybe? 

I have to travel for work next week and leave my kids for four nights it's the first time ever and I am depressed about it. Kind of a bad mood. I am going from sunny Florida to the midwest and it's dead winter there. 

Vonn, Just stick with the old guy and do what you need to do on the side. I have a hard time trusting doctors too. Yesterday my dermatologist told me she promised i would get clear skin if I used the medications the way she told me to. I quit using them because they caused a big breakout. Now I have to trust that she knows best and use products that are going to make my skin horrible before it gets better. It really sucks but Idk what else to do but now i get to go thru my skin trying to readjust again and looking bad.


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## TTC4+yrs

Hi All,

I have been reading through this thread and decided to share my experience. My husband and I have been TTC for almost 10 years now, we are both Unexplained and I have never been pregnant. 

After MANY failed fertility treatments we decided to look at other options. I now see my Chiroprator every Wednesday (have been for almost 3 years) and my acupuncturist every tuesday (5th month). When we first met with the Doctor, he told me more about our situation in the 2 hours he spent with us then any feritility clinic/doctor had in all of the visits / meetings / treatments - and believe me, there was SEVERAL .

I started with just the acupunture as I felt I needed to gain the trust of the doctor and the clinic. The acupuncture took me 3 rounds before I got it, and I mean GOT IT. On the fourth treatment I actually fell asleep. (Huge difference from after my 3rd treatment when I walked into my kitchen and my husband asked how it was and I started to sob and tell him it was torture!) Every since then, I am so excited on Tuesday knowing I get to go. After about 1 month of Acu, I decided I would start adding in the vitamins recommended (for myself and my husband) - they have actually helped.

Then it came to the herbs, it took me a while to really trust them to start taking these weird, VILE herbs but I realized I had nothing to lose and everything to gain. I started the herbs and I am amazed at how different everything is... My sleep, my anxiety and stress, my periods, my ovulation.. My husband started taking his herbs because he saw the changes in me. He no longer has the anxiety (was so bad that he was vomiting every morning).

I have been taking the herbs to 2 months now and will continue to do so, I am not pregnant BUT I do believe that by doing what I am doing that I WILL get my BFP!

I just thought I would share

xo


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## alison29

Hi tt4..what do you have done at chiropractor? What types of herbs to you take? It sounds like you are getting some great results. Do keep posting on this thread so we know when u get your bfp :)


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## Briss

*Blythe*, I hope you are doing well. How's your weight loss? This week looks a little better than last week. but I skipped a couple of dinners and replaced them with chocolate/grapes to reduce calories. probably not the best for eggies. grapes are a lot of calories but somehow my body deals with grapes better than chocolate. even if I have more grapes in calories than chocolate I lose weight better. My Monday-Tuesday fasting days are so hard. Monday as actually OK because I usually feel guilty and properly motivated after indulgent weekend but Tuesday is so super hard. I still keep to 500 calories and feel like a hero by Wednesday. The rest of the week it's between 1,000-1,200. Been very busy and tired at work, doing late nights again so could not do any aerobics this week. Hoping I can do some tonight though. 

*TTC4+yrs*. welcome! TCM has not worked for me but it's nice to know it's working for other people. I still believe in TCM because I have seen so many women over the years managing to improve their cycles. I guess it's just not for everyone. 10 years is just too hard, I feel for you. what treatments have you tried? did you have good quality embryos with IVF? 


*alison*, best of luck with femara. I have not tried it so would be interested to know how it goes. fasting could of course make anyone angry &#61514; but somehow I think it's hormones in this case. 

*Vonn*, just saw this recipe and thought of you. I have not tried it myself but all ingredients looks good https://www.ideadigezt.com/miraculous-thyroid-drink/ 

I perfectly understand how depressing these appointments can be. I have had a fair share on mine, just the other day I went to a follow up app at a clinic where I had my 3rd IVF and ended up bleeding internally after EC. The doctor was super nice and not defensive at all about what happened but she was quite clear that they would not recommend any more treatments for me as risks outweigh the benefits (obviously I did not tell her that I've already had 2 ECs after my disaster at their clinic) and also tried to have the donor egg conversation which I just had to interrupt there and then. I was lucky it was a female and they are more careful in what they say than men doctors. In the end she said my next options can be (i) natural IVF/IMSI (this is exactly what I am doing anyway but nice to know a specialist agrees with my way of thinking), or (ii) long protocol, which I have actually been considering for a while. I think we will carry on with natural IVF for a few more months and then try long protocol. 

*afm*, am losing my sleep again, I have another business trip coming up and the dates could not be worse, it's again that time of the month where I am supposed to do scans and be ready for EC. How will I ever get out of this trip I have no idea, if I mention Munich one more time I think people will just lose their patience and take me off the deal. 

my relatives keep annoying me through my mum, they badly want to see my father's grandchild and keep calling my mum with various "helpful" suggestions. They are so naïve, the other day they suggested that I should try IVF, My mum has my strict instructions not to discuss my situation with anyone under any circumstances so she had to patently endure their talk about how IVF can improve my chances without responding. why could not they just leave me alone! I have enough to deal with besides their annoyance 

Gor response from another clinic in Munich which I liked very much (prices in particular) and the fact that they are very happy with natural IVF (I do not hear any enthusiasm usually about natural IVF from IVF clinics) but the problem is they discontinued IMSI, they decided it's not improving their pregnancy rates. The doc I saw the other day actually also said IMSI makes no difference in stimulated cycles when you have many eggs and ICSI has the same results. But IMSI makes a lot of difference in a natural cycle where you only get one egg. a bit disappointed. 

I also approached a Spanish clinic, most ladies who went to Spain for IVF seem really impressed with their advanced IVF technology compared to the UK but I feel Spanish clinics in general are not keen on natural IVF and they are more expensive than Czech of German clinics.


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## alison29

Could you get the scans in what ever city you have to go to?


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## Briss

it's in Africa, I have no idea even how to begin asking about scans/bloods and not sure how safe it is ...


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## TTC4+yrs

Yes, 10 years of waiting and hoping have been awful but I am now in a good place with it all (I think). Our FS wants us to do IVF but financially I am not ready for that and not to mention emotionally. What if it didn't work?? The hardest is watching everyone get pregnant so easily - my sister who has PCOS and her hubby who has low count and mobility tried for 4 months and she is now pregnant.

I have no idea what herbs I am actually taking, I am a bit scared to know because it could be some weird stuff that would freak me out...lol

My eggs are great, tubes both clear, no endo and hubbys sperm post wash for our iui's was always over 200 million with 86% - 88% mobility - the FS was baffled as to why they didnt take.

Our TCM Doctor said that I could be getting pregnant each month but my immune system may be attacking fertilized egg. He said I have a liver and spleen deficiency and blood stagnation with a cold uterus. I have changed my diet as per his recommendations as well so I am hoping that all these changes will help. 

We were NTNP for about 4 years, then starting looking into everything. I have taken clomid for 6 months, temping, timing, LOTS of iui's... I have had the dye test and the surgery they do to see what is going on and it always comes back fine. 

I am just going to keep on trying, at least that part is fun :)


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## Briss

*TTC4+yrs*, I agree with your TCM doc re immune system. have you done immune profile testing like NK cells etc? this might be an answer to your problems. re your DH's sperm &#8211; really impressive! there is a good book &#8211; is your body baby friendly about immune stuff it helps to understand these things better.


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## TTC4+yrs

Briss said:


> *TTC4+yrs*, I agree with your TCM doc re immune system. have you done immune profile testing like NK cells etc? this might be an answer to your problems. re your DH's sperm  really impressive! there is a good book  is your body baby friendly about immune stuff it helps to understand these things better.

I have had the food blood test done and it turns out I can basicaly eat bananas and lentils ...lol... I have 3 pages of food intolerances which I have been eating on a rotation diet to see what ones affect me. 

I havent done any immune testing but I will be sure to bring this up on Tuesday. Yes, his sperm count was unbelievable! He was feeling pretty manly after he heard those numbers, it was quite funny and cute. 

I will check out that book too, you can never be too educated about your body and trying to conceive. I am an open book on the subject as I feel too many people are suffering in silence.

Thanks for that info :)


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## Blythe

*Briss* - hi :flower: i have been really trying but really failing. I find it so difficult not to eat when its this cold. I am back to pre xmas/illness weight and know only a few days of controlled eating would = results but i simply cannot motivate myself. I have been moving more etc....talking of which i see that all the old Jane Fonda videos are being released in UK on DVD - 

https://www.standard.co.uk/lifestyle/esmagazine/the-crush-jane-fonda-9978457.html

i have been working lots too and just find it so difficult to get a proper exercise routine in place....

i was interested to read what you said about IMSI....

its so difficult to juggle your work commitments with your plans....is bowing out of this deal an option or will it effect you moving forward with other deals? its a very tricky situation...

*TTC4+yrs* - Hi and welcome to the thread :flower: unexplained infertility is really upsetting.....its sometimes easier when there is something you can try to 'fix' but the unknown is really difficult to deal with. I am doing Acu every week but no longer taking the herbs.....however, i really do believe that they are so much more important and effective [for many] than the acu. It sounds like you have a fab doctor that really listens -= 2 hours - wow! i am impressed....just having that alone will make a difference to how the treatment feels....i have found so few people in the field of fertility that really listen.


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## Vonn

alison--I have been dealing with acne forever. Meaning since I was about 10, although it's now very isolated to around either ov or AF time. For the last ten years I wish I would have looked deeper into the hormonal imbalance that was causing it. Instead, I let my dermatologist have me on a very low dose of an antibiotic for years and years. I always asked if this was okay and was told it was fine. Combine that with bcp and no acne. It's hard to resist those results. But, look up what antibiotics and bcp can do & bingo, candida. 

I'd suggest trying to get to the bottom of the hormonal issue causing the acne. That may provide answers for your fertility questions, too.

TTC4+--Welcome to the thread! I'll be so curious to see how the acu & herbs can help you. One book that connects with all that is The Infertility Cure, so if you are intrigued this book may provide more insights. I agree with Briss that NK cells & other immune issues like anti-sperm antibodies should be looked at, too. A book I found helpful was Making Babies. One of the authors suggests testing for a whole host of infections. Apparently some of that has gone out of favor, but he gives compelling anecdotes. Like about the couple that kept passing e.coli back and forth to one another, with no symptoms. Once the e.coli was treated they got pregnant right away. I hope you can get some answers. There must be something specific happening for this to have been an issue for so long.

Hi Blythe & Briss! Have you ladies seen Jane Fonda lately? She looks amazing. I'm sure she's had a ton of work done, but it hasn't made her look totally weird, and her figure is fantastic.


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## Briss

*Blythe*, it's great that you are still progressing with weight loss despite freezing cold. I can barely stay outside. I am hoping to see some progress this week as well. it looks like I get a bit of weight loss after the 2 fasting days and then I just need to try to keep this up for the rest of week but it claims up a little. 

*Vonn*, i can't recall the name but there is some medication you can take together with antibiotics to avoid candida. you also need to eat some kind of probiotic to restore your digestive system, antibiotics kill everything bad or good. I got my acne in early 30s during the first year of my work in the City, I thought it was stress related but since I started charting I could see it's around AF/O so it must be hormonal. I was given some lotion with antibiotic to help and it did help but as soon as I stop it the acne was back so I did not see any point in this treatment. sometimes it disappears and I do not get any outbreaks for months but I got it back in November and it's just doesn't go away. basically the only treatment I have is using various moisturisers that are suited for acne prone skin like: la roche posay (Effaclar) or Avene. I mean it's quite depressing I should really be using something for my wrinkles and age related rather than things like have the opposite effect cos they all tend to dry the skin - hence the ageing comes sooner. but i feel like I am getting new blemishes even by looking at anti ageing products cos they all have some oils/fats in them.

https://www.laroche-posay.co.uk/product-treatments/Effaclar/EFFACLAR-DUO-p9670.aspx

https://www.avene.co.uk/90-of-Acne-Sufferers-Have-Never-Found-An-Effective-Treatment

*TTC4+*, I think food intolerances/allergies can be a sign of immune problems. Immunes testing is quite expensive but it might be worth doing in your case. I know there is treatment that you can do in a natural cycle so if you follow that treatment you may not even need IVF. 

*afm*, couldn't do any aerobics yesterday I was too upset, I was trying so hard to avoid my pregnant friends but they got me yesterday, both of them on the same day! I saw their bumps, leant that one is having a boy and the other's twins are causing all sorts of mischief, how nice :( I was holding on fine but run away as soon as I could and broke down in tears on my way home. this is just too much

things at work have been quite bad, I am not doing a good job cos I am too busy talking to various clinics and researching. I want to have a few other options if things do not work out in Munich. unfortunately IMSI is rare these days, it was "fashionable" a while ago but now does not seem that common. I still believe for natural IVF it would improve the chances. I find it hard to communicate with our Munich clinic because if you send your results or questions after noon they will only respond the next day and it's hard to arrange scans/blood to be all done in the morning. 

I run out of excesses to take time off work, don't even know how I am going to manage next cycle. I can't ask to take me off this deal cos it's the only deal I am running at the moment.


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## Blythe

*Briss* - I always look away when ever i see a bump so i understand it being too much yesterday. Your own bump is coming, i know it!

It must be very stressful juggling IVF timings and work commitments. You mentioned an upcoming trip to Egypt and that it will be when you need to be cycle monitoring.....will this not make the decision for you with regard to your next cycle?


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## Briss

the trip is currently planned for 4-6 Feb which is days 7-9 when I am supposed to do scans/bloods. if I manage to come back from the trip early on 6 feb then i may still be able to have a scan on day 9. though the Munich clinic wanted me to do a scan on day 7. but then all these date are still not certain I may get AF later or sooner and my trip dates may shift so it's difficult to plan. but I do not see I can go if that means missing an important scan and missing the cycle as a result. I already decided that IVF takes priority but I am just scared how to bring this up at work (not IVF but the fact I can't go) 

one of the pregnant friends sent me a follow up email saying how sorry she is that things are so unfair for me and sending me good wished, I feel so guilty. I do like her and feel sorry to lose her and it's not her fault she got pregnant but I just can't have that kind of reminders and negativity in my life, I am way too fragile for this. I want her out of my life until I am pregnant :( such a terrible thing to say ...

this week on average I lost 0.7 kg! Much more than I expected so I am pleased.


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## nobump

Briss/Blythe congrats on the weight loss. 

Briss, your work situation seems complicated... is taking a sabbatical an option for you?

TT4yrs, welcome.

Aurao, it is always the case, I am happy my AF was early this month, as it brings next months earlier so hopefully not have it when we are on our hols. Is there another facility that your clinic can use while it is closed? Seems odd they don't have a backup.

All, I have been reading but not posting, been wiped out by heavy AF... ACU was good on Saturday, he gave me some 'secret' herbs.. Yaunnan Biayao, to take them for 3 days... started to take them.. but google searches seem to bring up treatment for dogs or horses not humans!!! Got gynae appt on Monday to see about heavy periods.... hopefully will get some help..


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## Briss

nobump, i hope you can sort your heavy periods. very strange herbs but then if they help it does not really matter 

i could ask for a sabbatical if i knew there is a time limit as to how long it will take to get pregnant. otherwise, sabbatical will buy me 3-4 months tops and 3-4 ivf cycles may just not be enough to get pregnant so i will back to square one on my return to work. also sabbaticals are not paid so i will be losing my income. basically all i need is 3-4 days off a month and be in London for scans/bloods. it's not that much to ask but it's never certain as to the dates. 

am coming down with something, so upsetting :(


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## Blythe

*Briss* - i suppose your planning around the next cycle will all depend on when CD1 comes....i have dots all over my calendar and diary from counting days and plotting and planning.

I understand you being scared about telling work that you may not be able to attend something, or may have to cut a trip short but you have decided upon your priorities. I think your work are very lucky to have you...you have really been through it these last couple of years in particular and you have not broken down [i know you have really but in terms of work they know nothing] and you have kept working consistently and working hard...you got a pay rise and promotion. The fact you are so very well researched on TTC and the fact you may spend a fair amount of your working day dealing with TTC is neither here nor there. You are smart and kickarse and that means you have done that and your work. If you have to tell them you are dealing with medical issues and that due to the nature of it it has to take priority. You will find something to say that works for you and who cares what they think...you certainly wont give a monkeys once you are on your maternity leave - thats for sure.

At the first sign of coming down with something i have lemon juice, hot water and manuka honey...if that does not work, i then stuff myself full of paracetamol.

*nobump* - so sorry to hear you have been wiped out. what are your AFs like? my own are much lighter than they used to be - 3 of days of medium flow red bleed which then tapers off. I used to have to wear super max tampons and towels for the first two days and nights...

i really hope the new herbs do something for you....:flower:


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## nobump

Blythe, my AF used to be 3 days bleeding and then stop when I was younger, when I got together with DH I went back on the pill for a few years, then stopped to TTC, think they were normal when I first stopped the pill but for the last 3 or 4 I bleed for 5 to 7 days and spot for a few more, sometimes longer.. I need to double up, super tampon and pads... can bleed through super tampons in a matter of hours so need to double up... the heavy bleeding can appear at any time, thought things were easing on Thursday, was light in the morning, then was hit by super pain and heavy bleeding... it is exhausting, getting bloods checked on Thursday, may need to go back on iron tablets... ended up on them last year after first failed IVF.. I have fibroids, so think this is what causes me to have lots of thick lining as the surface area is greater.. but op to remove fibroids is risky...

Briss, I agree with Blythe, if a sabbatical is not an option then can you go to your HR department and explain you have a medical issue an may need to take time off at short notice for appointments, you can go into as much/little detail as you want with them, and they are not allowed to share info with your manager, they can just back you up if you need to take time out.


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## smurfy

Hi briss

Agree with the other people here, the stress of working around work I am sure is not giving you any health benefits in terms of successful outcome for IVF, if anything it could be making it worse. I can understand trying to not rock the boat at work I am Head of finance so also not easy to get out of important dates, if after this cycle of IVF it does not work I am going to go to HR and inform them and to be honest your boss does not even need to know the details. I wish you all the best and really feel for you juggling it all. I think for this cycle I can get just about manage with the appointments as should be 2 weeks before our qtr end but if I get any delays it may cause some issues. 

Good luck x


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## Briss

ladies, thank you. it means a lot to me to be able to share it with people who understand!

I realised a few years ago that HR are not there to protect employees' interests, they are actually protecting the partners from employees :) so I am very careful in talking to HR because while I know they are not supposed to share info with the bosses, they still do. when I had that bleeding after IVF it were actually the partners who insisted I talk to HR and I am sure they were hoping to get some info cos I was as vague as I possibly could with them. I think they decided in the end that I had an abortion :( I did not care but a secretary once mentioned something like "after your D&C" and when I was just standing there looking at her in a state of shock she tried to correct herself. basically people talk and come up with all sort of things. 

I am properly ill :( can't talk can't swallow temperature is awful. I am not going to work tomorrow which is just making things so much more difficult for me :(


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## Blythe

*nobump* - of thats tuff...i would imagine such heavy blood loss would leave you feeling exhausted. I used to take floridax which is a nicer way to taking iron and minus the rubbish and uncomfortable side effects of tablets.

*Briss* - i hope you can shake the illness soon :flower: But until then put your feet up and watch some old films.

AFM - am about to finish the last sweets from a huge bag of mint chocolates - those green hard boiled sweets with choc bit in middle. I actually feel sick and have headache but cannot stop. How awful that i sometimes am completely unable to control my own hands. Will be back on it tomorrow


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## nobump

Briss that doesn't sound good that people are talking behind backs... maybe a few days off will do you good. 

Blythe it won't hurt to go off piste for a night. Enjoy!


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## Briss

I did not have any proper food today and yet managed to eat 1,600 calories on a couple of pastries and fruit (well, lots of fruit!).

I'd need to somehow manage a trip to GP tomorrow just in case, I would feel better with some official sick leave from them but not sure if you can get one for cold/flu? My temp is closer to 39. I never asked before, I always worked through my illnesses - so stupid! What for??


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## Blythe

Your doc will only do a note if you are off over a week. You will need to self certify for any illness under a week. He may tell you to come back next mon if you are still poorly and get a note then. 

Hope you are feeling a bit better this morning.


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## nobump

My doc have given me sick lines before. My work count both weekends so you can't take a full week off.... and they expect you to phone in everyday. 
If you go see a doc on Monday and don't make it back to work before your self certification runs out they can sign you off from the date you visited them but they are not able to back date sick lines if you wait to see them... guess it depends on how long you think you need off.


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## Briss

i think you can only self-sertify up to 5 days in a year? I already had a cold where I self-certified in august, I think I used that allowance and probably need a leave? not sure. anyway, no appointments at my GP today, but I definitely need antibiotics. My throat is really bad. could not sleep. I am not dealing with high temp that great, anything above 39 and I can barely survive, I was soaking my feet in boiling hot water and they were red and yet my knees were ice cold and I was shaking. luckily paracetamol beat it down to 38 and I was able at least to go to bed. it's still pretty high this morning. if I could start antibiotics today, i would probably be back to normal in 2-3 days.


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## smurfy

Take care briss, hope you get to doctors soon there are a lot of throat infections and flu going round at the moment. 

That is awful that your company/HR people are talking about your personal situation that is againat the law to say the least, but the worst part is having to deal with it when they tell you to your face.

Look after yourself xxx:flower:


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## Briss

smurfy, thank you!

I've found antibiotics at home! my mum always brings me tonnes of meds, "just in case" so that was lucky cos the GP still has not called and my throat is getting worse 

annoying is thing is that I had to take a pregnancy test before starting antibiotics just to be sure so yet again feeling depressed after seeing that one line even though I did not expect anything else, still hurts


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## Vonn

It's so interesting how different insurance systems/plans work. We don't really do anything like self-certifying illnesses over here. Sounds like a bit of a hassle, but I am sure there are things about the NHS that I would really appreciate. The insurance system in the US is such a mess.

Briss--I hope you feel better soon! 

And as for the meds for candida, thanks for thinking of me. I am on a prescription (nystatin), a supplement to the rx that's supposed to make it more effective (candex), and probiotics (pills and kefir), plus food and drink that's anti-yeast/fungal (ginger tea, coconut milk/oil, etc.) It's expensive!

Hi to everyone else!


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## Briss

nystatin - that's exactly the one I know. for some reason I could never get it here. GP prescribed a very high dose of antibiotics and when I asked about nystatin he just said I do not need anything for candida. annoying cos I know antibiotics can lead to candida :(


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## Vonn

Yeah, a lot of traditional drs don't give much credence to candida overgrowth. Your GP's reaction doesn't surprise me. Diflucan is other rx med I know is prescribed. On the non-rx end, grapefruit seed extract, oil of oregano, pau d'arco, and raw garlic cloves and ginger can also be very helpful if you ever feel like it's getting bad and you want to do something. I hope it's not that bad for you, though. Get well!


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## nobump

Small update from me.. hospital was not much good, didn't really tell me anything I didn't know.... doc was very nice, but he is not a IVF specialist so couldn't advise with that... but he gave me my options... suggested taking progestrone pills to help reduce bleeding, or some other drug, but can't remember the name, will check when I go back to the docs, effectively keep doing what I am doing until I decided to stop trying, and have the coil fitted or have the coil fitted while on a break from IVF cycles... decision time will be after our holiday at end of Feb as I think we may have a chance of catching O on the holiday, don't want to give up what may be a chance... 


Glad you managed to get some antibiotics Briss but frustrating they wont prescribe anything candida


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## Briss

nobump, at least they recommended something to reduce the bleeding. I so hope you will catch that egg while on holiday. a miracle would be most welcome on this thread 

afm, throat is still hurting but it's actually rather nice to stay at home, in bed even, on a Monday :) DH is taking tomorrow off so we can relax at home, nice!


----------



## adr75050

I have a question for y'all? I have had 4 failed IVF and 1 FET cycle. This FET i started acupuncture and really felt like it made the difference and resulted my positive pregnancy test. Found out of Sunday 1/25 that I am pregnant. But i went back to the doctor today and he uses acupuncture with a TDP CQ-32- Special Electromagnetic Therapeutic Apparatus (like a infared heat lamp) on my kidney area. I asked him if it was safe to use in pregnancy and he said yes. My research shows that although acupuncture is safe during pregnancy, the lamp is not recommended for use in pregnant women. When I asked him about it he said it is a manufactures warning that relates to the utilization of the lamp and that he is not putting the lamp on the baby so it is safe. I am totally back tracking on the use of acupuncture now (at least with this guy). Im uncomfortable with what my research says versus what he is telling me. Anyone know anything about this? My fertility doctor said I could continue to use acupuncture, but the lamp was not discussed. I have placed a call to my ob-gyn to inquire. He even mentioned to me that since my family will be relocating from Dallas to Houston that I should do my research on acupuncturist out there bc not all are trained in fertility and pregnancy and most will not even work with pregnant women. Yet my research says it is safe???? Confused? and a little alarmed? Any insight or clarification?


----------



## Briss

adr75050, I am not sure but when I did my research it was the same as yours i.e. lamp is not recommended in TWW but then some acu practitioners just used it throughout my cycle regardless. I think if you are worried it's better to ask him not to use the lamp, otherwise you will be stressing out and that's just counterproductive


----------



## Vonn

adr--My acu dr does not use that lamp, so I'm not familiar with it specifically, but I agree with Briss that if it makes you uncomfortable, it's best to not use it.

Also, I think it is a good idea to find a new acu practicitioner in your new city who works with fertility and pregnancy. But it is certainly safe to do acu during pregnancy, no question about that. I'd prefer to go to someone who commonly sees people in your condition, whatever it may be. More experience should lead to more expertise, right?

Good luck!


----------



## adr75050

Thanks Vonn and Briss. I ahve already reached out to a new acupuncturist who specializes in fertility. Hope this is the way to go!!


----------



## nobump

My guy uses the lamp all the time. Although not sure if it has different settings. It is not as warm when he uses it on my front as it is on my back.


----------



## Blythe

My ACU doc (and many others) will not do ACU during early pregnancy. I would not have it during first 12 weeks.


----------



## nobump

When I was going through last IVF he stopped at EC. Never went back until after I had got result that it didn't work and I felt like seeing people that knew what had happened. Not sure what he would have done if it had worked. His English is not that great so not easy to aak things.


----------



## Briss

annoyingly I put most of my weight back on while I have been ill at home. and I did not really overeat that much. maybe it's just because I was not moving at all just seating on my sofa or in bed all day. but it's only been 3 days! quite upsetting considering it took me almost 3 weeks to start losing weight. will try to do my fasting days today and tomorrow.

Got my AF so I can plan my next cycle. 

a colleague is bringing her newly born baby to work today. what a joy :(


----------



## nobump

Oh no thats not good. Maybe the weight will drop off when you start back on the diet.

Did you manage to avoid the baby in work? 

The has just been a program on bbc2 scotland. Modern times chasing vickings. About 4 women using donar sperm from Denmark. Caught last 15 mins. Showed ET. The women had video diaries. Think I'll download this and watch it later.

Going to look to setup an appointment at a local private clinic for a chat to see if there is a chance or if it is time to quit.

Xx


----------



## Briss

she brought the baby right into my office :) luckily I am still coughing so she got scared and only stayed for about a minute. cute baby... actually it was easier this month cos I started taking these antibiotics and they turned out to be super strong and not compatible with pregnancy. I obviously tested before I started taking them but I was not 100% sure until AF showed up and I did not have my usual AF symptoms so it did not feel like it was coming and I was going out of my mind. I mean I know I had zero chances with no BD and day 8 ovulation but knowing my luck this could have easily happen this month. I was so happy to see AF

nobump, I am sure you have a chance for a baby regardless of what the clinic says. it's just a question of whether they can help you or not.

I think about donor sperm all the time. I am so worried I will be punished for sticking with DH's sperm... 

Gennet's sister clinic in London may actually turn out to be the cheapest scan/blood place. They can do scans for 90 and bloods for 40. I will be saving about 30-60 pounds a month. does not seem a lot but it all adds up


----------



## Blythe

*no bump* - i was reading a section in my current TTC book about uterine fibroids - not sure if any of this is of interest but thought i would post:

according to a well known medical intuitive Carolyn Myss, fibroid tumours represent creativity that has never been given an outlet or 'birthed', including fantasy images of the self that have never been expressed, as well as creative secrets of other selves. she sees fibroids as resulting when life energy is poured into dead ends - such as jobs or relationships which have been outgrown. Not sure if this rings any bells but there is more if you are interested....

extreme high doses of vit a - initially dose of 90, 000 iu followed by maintenance of 30, 000 iu every day. Apparently in trials cut bleeding in half....she recommends the following book on the subject:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Healing-Fibroids-Doctors-Guide-Natural/dp/0743418247

I know vit A is a bit dodgy when TTC so maybe this is just until they have gone....

supplements:

proteolytic enzymes
vit a/beta carotenes
b vits
vit c and bioflavonoids
vit e and selenium
EFAs
Ginseng
glutathione
indole-3-carbinol (I3C)
magnesium
methione, choline and inosistol
spirunlina
zinc


all the above is from this book:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Fertility-Diet-Sarah-Dobbyn/dp/1847372007

i can scan the relevant pages if you want to read more


----------



## Briss

I managed to do 2 fasting days! so pleased :) and I think I am going back to my pre illness weight so quite happy with that. 

Just got one of old J Fonda dvds that i ordered a while ago and actually it works on my machine despite being US. She is so young and slim! i do not think I ever saw her like this, the first time I noticed her workouts she was in her 50s I think (but looking amazing). There are two workouts for beginners and advanced. the second one looks a bit too intense for me tbh I guess it's for younger people... loving their outfits though :)


----------



## Blythe

Well done Briss :flower: Its so good that you have stuck to it when it has been so cold too! 

Whats the plan this month? Have you still got to go overseas for work?

I did a fitbit challenge this week and so ended up walking to work twice [a good few miles] in order to get my step count up - i felt so much better for it. I have just had a kale salad too so not feeling to guilty about eating the cadbury mini eggs earlier!


----------



## nobump

Blythe that is interesting. I take some ginseng from my acu guy. I am away this weekend visiting family but will have a look online when I am home.

Briss that's fab re your weight. 

Think I have lost a little eating porriage for breakfast and avoiding the sweetie desk at work. Waiting for lighter nights then I'll start going for walks in evening.


----------



## Briss

I did not lose any weight last week but most annoyingly I put back everything I lost over the weekend even though I only indulged in cookies once on Sunday (just could not help myself). am trying to do two more fasting days today and tomorrow but hating everything at the moment. what's the point you fast you lose weight you eat you gain it all back! I really need to watch my calories carefully on non-fasting days. I think I will set my limit at 1,200 for weekend but 1,000 for weekday. I've been on this diet for a month now and I only lost 1 kg 

Gennet, London just told me I will have to pay some additional fees for doing blood test. 15 pounds is not a lot but that's exactly what I was saving on going to them as opposed to Path labs. so what's the point considering path labs give you results in 2 hours. 

My business trip and Munich trip is up in the air, looks like I will know what's happening in the last moment and will have to make decisions there and then. how stressful


----------



## nobump

Briss, good luck, sounds like a sensible plan with you calorie limits. That is so frustrating about the lab costs.

Blythe, the book looks to have good reviews, I may look to order it, just need to remember my Amazon password!


Has anyone had bruising after acu? I have a large bruise from a needle in my belly, it is looking much larger today and I noticed that I had needle marks on my legs, this was Sunday night... from ACU on Saturday morning...


----------



## Briss

nobump, I often had bruises after acu, sometimes even bleeding. it's annoying but nothing to worry about


----------



## Briss

had my scan but I think day 7 is just too early, they could see 3 follicles and 2 closer to 10 mm so potentially one of those can grow to become dominant but at this stage I do not think you can tell they are still rather small. lining is not great really, just 5.4 mm but I am still spotting so hopefully it's just too early. I'd prefer to do day 9 scan cos it's cheaper (as you only need one scan) and it's less confusing. I am now worried that my lining is not good enough and anyway we will most likely have to do another scan later this week. 

I went back to check my weight progress and actually I was wrong I lost closer to 2 kg in total in a month which is not totally pathetic. still, my weight has not changed much in the last 2 weeks which is disappointing. am doing my second fasting day &#8211; what a pain! somehow I am now more comfortable going through the day without food except maybe a cappuccino or miso soup and then have some food when I come home in the evening. I stick to 500-550 calories on fasting days. 

I am still coughing a lot so really not sure if I can go through EC like this. no temperature though so hopefully this should be OK.


----------



## nobump

That's good news about your weight loss.

raspberry leaf tea is supposed to help with lining. Chocolate and O helps..

Was at docs this morn. Back ob iron tablets. Hemoglobin and ferritin levels are decreasing.


----------



## Briss

nobump, what does low levels of ferritin mean? 

afm, am back on antibiotics. my coughing is so much worse, like bronchitis type of coughing and also temp is elevated. I am so scared they wont do EC if I am not well. I really want to try this month. although CBFM is still on low so I might be ovulating later which is good I have a bit more time for antibiotics to kick in


----------



## Vonn

Hi everyone, I took a little break. My sister and I went to Florida for a few days to visit our parents. It was wonderful to get away from the cold. 

I wore a two-piece swim suit with a longer top and right between where the top ended and the bottom began I had an acu bruise. Boo. One other time, I left the office and saw in a mirror in the building hallway that I had blood running down my neck. I was bleeding a little bit out of a needle spot in my ear. It looked so scary! And then I started laughing. 

Briss--I hope you feel better soon so this cycle is possible. Good job with the diet! Keep it up!

Nobump--Do you have energy problems when your ferritin/iron is low?


----------



## nobump

Briss hopefully the antibiotics will work, are you having to take more time off work? Could this be the excuse not to travel to work meetings? 

Vonn, you don't think to check for bruises, that is funny about your ear bleeding down your neck, what must people have thought! I have seen a small bruise on my breast bone but this one is just between my navel and pubic bone, so hidden by clothes thankfully.

I was first diagnosed with low ferritin last Apriil when I went to the docs exhausted, and ask to be check to see if I was anemic because I was bleeding really heavy. My level was 8, side affects, low energy, brittle nails and best or all irratability (I have a short temper anyway so this just makes it worse!). Also think it has an impact on fertility and response to IVF, so started taking iron tablets, 3 a day and had to have my levels rejected before I went through my cycle in August, my levels in September where improved. But didn't want to be on iron tablets forever... but my levels went from 30 something to 20 something after one month of not taking them, back on a tablet a day.


----------



## Blythe

Hi ladies :flower:

Briss - how are you feeling today? Please report back on scan. I so hope you are able to proceed this cycle. Thinking of you.


----------



## Briss

thank you, ladies. Things are not great, I am quite ill with temperature and the usual cold symptoms. apparently it's a virus so antibiotics are not helping. feeling quite rotten. my follicle is still quite small 13 mm so I am hoping I will ovulate later and can recover in time for EC but the chances are pretty slim. GP said they can theoretically proceed with EC even with cold but probably best not to have general anaesthetic or sedation but it depends on the clinic. I have not told the Munich yet about my condition. I may need to do another scan on weekend but no idea where to do bloods, nothing works on saturday.


----------



## Vonn

Briss--I hope you are starting to feel better & things work out this cycle!

Blythe--Do you have anything planned for anytime soon? Are you seriously considering IUI or IVF in the near future?

AFM--Sitting at 8DPO with a big temp spike, which is totally unusual for me. I did have a restless night sleeping, but that doesn't normally create such a dramatic temp change. Trying not to read too much into it, but we all know how tough that can be. The next few days will tell the story!


----------



## Briss

Vonn, that temp spike looks promising but wait for a few days hopefully it will stay up.

I am still feeling quite awful, temp is around 38 and it just won't go down no matter how much paracetamol I take :( I was so hoping I will be better by now. Munich wants me to trigger but I could not find their medicine here, it's all going so wrong. they also said they could proceed with EC if I am well and I have two days to recover. I am not booking anything until the very last minute cos I just do not what's going to happen with my temp.


----------



## Blythe

Vonn I will be watching your chart like a hawk. Hope to see the temp stay high. That would be an amazing start to the year!

I'm all other the place switching from one plan to the next most of the time. My DH intends going out tonight and that will mean booze. It really makes me so angry!! Last night I felt like leaving him and opting for dinar sleep and iui. But I'm not sure I could afford to live without him. Romantic huh?!?

Briss. How horrid to be feeling so bad. I hope so much that you awake this morning feeling a bit better. When do Munich want you to trigger? Don't they want to see another scan result? I will check your chart later to see if you have your peak yet. What meds do they use to trigger?


----------



## Blythe

Ha I meant donor sperm not diner sleep. Fat fingers!!!


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## nobump

Just catching up vonn your temp looks good fx for you.

Blythe my therapist asked me if I would be staying with my OH if we finally reach the end in the TTC stage and look to go on meds to help control my bleeding. I immediately said yes. I love my OH not sure i can put all the blame for things not working at hia door given my poor response to stims. Maybe some things are not meant to be.

Would your OH stay with you if you opted for donner sperm? Is this something you have discussed? 

Briss did you not say you were looking to get a scan and bloods today? Why can't you get the drugs? Are they out of stock or not available in UK? 

Going for acu today but still have massive bruise on my tummy from last week. Last week was busy in work looking forward to going on holiday at end of the month. Feel I need a week of chilling out.


----------



## Briss

still feeling rotten :( I stopped antibiotics so not sure what to expect now. The medicine is called predalon 5000 IE but At the pharmacy DH was told this is not even on the list so it won't be available in the UK. My head is so foggy I can't even think clearly so the best way out I can think of is getting Pregnyl as a replacement. I am still not sure I am going because I can't even get out of bed :(

btw, I was taking Lemsip until I read what's it made of, it contains aspartame!!! WTF! this is so annoying you are trying to avoid all the bad things and yet they sneak in with your medicine :(

I was not told to do another scan, they just figured that if the follicle was 13 mm on thursday it will be around 17 mm today so good time to trigger.


----------



## nobump

Just catching up vonn your temp looks good fx for you.

Blythe my therapist asked me if I would be staying with my OH if we finally reach the end in the TTC stage and look to go on meds to help control my bleeding. I immediately said yes. I love my OH not sure i can put all the blame for things not working at hia door given my poor response to stims. Maybe some things are not meant to be.

Would your OH stay with you if you opted for donner sperm? Is this something you have discussed? 

Briss did you not say you were looking to get a scan and bloods today? Why can't you get the drugs? Are they out of stock or not available in UK? 

Going for acu today but still have massive bruise on my tummy from last week. Last week was busy in work looking forward to going on holiday at end of the month. Feel I need a week of chilling out.


----------



## nobump

Double posting as typed earlier msg on phone this morning but didn't hit post.

Acu was with new person usual guy is away to china for new year. She specialises in fertility. She gave me tablets to help me relax. And gave me a full body massage. Head back and legs. Going to go in for some mid week sessions for next two weeks. Hopefully do some good before holiday.


Briss any update xx


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## Vonn

Geez, Briss, you just can't catch a break. This Munich clinic must not deal with UK ladies much, they should really know what drugs you can actually get. You are right that pregnyl (and novadrel and ovidrel) are about the same. Can you even get one of those?

Nobump--in this whole process, it's reassuring to at least be certain of one thing! That the OH is a keeper. I just learned not too long ago about donor eggs, donor sperm, and donor embryos. It's pretty hard emotionally to wrap my head around them, but it does feel like another option added to the table that I hadn't previously been aware of. Oh, and a full massage at acu, I'm jealous!!


----------



## Briss

nobump, that full body massage - head back and legs sounds wonderful. 

that bloody virus whatever that is is killing me, these days I enjoy scratching my gums and pulling my hair :( sounds awful and it hurts but these things give me some relief. 

I can't drink any coffee and have not had any chocolate all week! it tastes horrible to me. I was only able to drink lemon/honey/hot water but today my taste suddenly changed and I had to switch to some milky drink. I force myself to eat eggs and porridge but tbh food feels like torture; everything tastes disgusting 

DH could not get that German trigger so I will be injecting Pregnyl at my own risk cos the Munich did not even reply to my email. I will board that plane tomorrow if I am physically able to and let them decide on Monday if they want to proceed with EC despite my condition. don't know if I am right in taking this cycle forward but I figured lots of people get pregnant naturally while having colds...


----------



## Vonn

Go Briss, go briss!! Will be thinking of you!

AFM--my temp spike was short lived. But no spotting yet at 9dpo so that's good.


----------



## alison29

Go for it briss! I hate colds so much..I washed my hands 100 times at my business workshop and wore a mask on the plane. I get sick all the time. I missed bd window this month cause of trip. My friend at work finally got pg on her ivf. They can legally marry and got pg on same day so exciting.I spent 3 hrs a day face time with daughter on trip and my dh truck had lap top and a bunch of other things stolen out of hs truck one night while I was gone. It was awful. So waiting for AF ..still going to do ACU but had to deal with dental wk this week instead. Hi vonn no bump and Blythe!


----------



## Blythe

*No Bump* - Thank you for your comments. However, to be clear I do not put the blame for my inability to conceive at my DH's door. Most of the time it is at my own, for one reason or another. Every now and then i loose it and knowing my DH is going out drinking [at a time when i rather he wasn't] really upsets me - it did not help that i had severe PMT. I have to be honest and LTTTC has made me question every aspect of my life including my relationship with my partner and others too. I sometimes let of steam here when i am having a bad day/night.

We have been TTC for over 4.5 years so have considered all options and, yes, he is happy to move forward with donor sperm if that would get us our take home baby, and i would consider DE now, which is something i thought i would never say. But then its all about £££ at the end of the day.

*Briss* - I hope you are feeling a little better today and are able to get on that plane. Keeping everything crossed that this cycle is the magic one!


----------



## nobump

Briss think of the weight you would have lost not eating xx but seriously can't believe what a tough time you are having this cycle. 

Blythe I hope I haven't offended you I was just trying to relate to your frustrations. This process is so unfair.

Xx


----------



## nobump

Double post


----------



## nobump

Briss how are you? Did you make it to Munich? Did the clinic go ahead with EC.

Thinking of you.

Xx


----------



## Vonn

Briss--I am totally assuming since we haven't had an update from you lately that you are in Munich having sucessful collections and transfers and sleeping off your sickness! I hope all is going well and look forward to the update when you are up to it!

Hi to everyone else!

AFM--I was able to get my dr to change my thyroid meds & I want to get that some time to kick in and make me all better (just kidding) before jumping into the medicated and monitored IUIs. So we are pushing all that off one more month. We'll try on our this cycle. I am very hopeful that I'm on my way to mending. Being very strict on a diet and supps for the candida and really addressing the thyroid/reverse T3 problem.


----------



## Briss

hi ladies, sorry i have not updated you. so much has happened. i'm still pretty ill but we went to Munich anyway, had EC and got one egg. i had two follicles somehow, no idea where the second one appeared from but they were both same size. that second follicle on the right had an egg but the main one did not. very strange. the procedure was very brutal, no sedation and it took 5-6 tries before they got to my left follicle, i was close to passing out from pain. I also started bleeding. and all that on top of my general chest infection. basically in the end the egg fertilised and I had the transfer on day 2. I was still bleeding but they said it's vaginal from EC wound so not an issue. I am PUPO!!! but so unwell :( i am still coughing and my chest hurts a lot but I am so pleased!


----------



## Vonn

Briss--No apologies needed! You've had all you can handle. Thanks for the quick update--sounds awful, but amazing result in the end! Basically all you could have hoped for! You're such a champ for doing all this while sick. Take care of yourself. Your emotional and physical health have taken a beating these past months, so just take it easy, rest and recover. :dust:


----------



## nobump

Briss what a journey. EC sounds horrific. So happy you made it to transfer. FX for you.
Xxxx


----------



## smurfy

best of luck Briss, you deserve every success and glad you got to go through the cycle - take care look after yourself x


----------



## alison29

Ouch briss..I hope this is it!


----------



## Vonn

A day late, but HAPPY VALENTINE'S DAY to all my lovely TTC ladies!
:flower: <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 :flower:


----------



## nobump

Briss any news?

How is everyone else doing?

X


----------



## Briss

nobump, thanks for thinking of me. I had a blood test but the results did not come through. I am so annoyed cos I've been agonising all day waiting for the results and now I am not even sure when they come: tomorrow or only Monday. I have to fly to Egypt next week, could not get out of this trip. also, I am still coughing and have chest pain and my nose is bleeding today. 

is anyone celebrating Chinese New Year? I made DH wear red pants and am also wearing red underwear - supposed to bring luck :) whatever it takes


----------



## Jazzbird

Briss I'm still reading and rooting for you. Praying this is it xxx


----------



## nobump

Hi Briss will you get results of bloods over the weekend? 

Who are you flying to Egypt with? Lots of women fly when they don't know if they are pregnant. 

Sorry to hear your still poorly. I guess you have not been able to take anything. I have been wiped out this week withh AF and tonsillitis but get a script for penicillin. Starting to feel better. 

Fly out tomorrow for a bit of sun. Can't wait. Hoping snow forecast for Sunday wont cause problems with my flight.


Not done anything for chinese new year. Acu place is closed though. So have to wait 2 weeks for next season. Xx


----------



## Vonn

Hi all!

Briss--I am totally stalking your chart, hoping this cycle is it for you. Test results would be very early, so even a bfn wouldn't count you out yet. Any unusual symptoms?

Nobump--have a wonderful time on your vacation. Yay for warm sun! We are a ways from that here in cold Minnesota, but I did get down to Florida for a few days and it was lovely.

Blythe, jazz bird, and everyone else, hope you are all doing well!

AFM--getting close to ov but DH and I are in a bit of a rough patch so may take this month off.


----------



## nobump

Vonn it is not easy to try everymmonth life often gets in the way. 

Briss reread your post so if no results today you need to wait to Monday. How many days past transfer are you?

Not neen feeling great today. Was finishing packing.managed to loose sun lotion. Went out to shops for some more. DH drove. Felt pain.... went to bathroom and had bleed through. Had light pad on as only been light flow past 2 days... thankfully had spare underwear in my hangbag and tampons and towels.... day 9 hopefully this will be over soon. Want to tryand catch O on holiday. 

Will check in when I can while away. Hopefully pick up free wifi somewhere. 
X


----------



## Wish4another1

Briss - silent stalker here (ok not silent today) but I see your temp jump and I am so hopeful for you!! :hugs2:


----------



## Briss

Ladies, thank you very much for your support. It's been very anxious few days but I am being cautiously optimistic. AF is due today but Clearblue said "Pregnant 2-3" this morning! FRER is giving me a faint line which is unfortunately not close to control line (after the chemical I had on my first IVF I am really scared of faint lines). I've been waiting for a response from Munich on my blood tests but they are being slow which makes me super nervous cos I really want to hear from them whether we have a chance here. Also, I run out of progesterone and am slightly panicking. I cant buy German progesterone here but I have Czech one and cyclogest, not sure which one is better. would really like to hear from Munich.

I am off to the airport soon to fly to Egypt, cant believe this! I spent years carefully avoiding all travel in TWW and cancelling important trips and now when I finally have a real chance I am travelling and not anywhere close in Europe but to Africa. I am taking some nuts/dried fruit and herbal teas with me just in case. I hope it's safe to eat at the hotel but I am quite nervous as I had food poisoning in Egypt before even though we were very careful. I read that it seems safe for the baby to travel by air but the first trimester is a risky one so not the best time to travel. 

I am also still coughing a lot and my chest hurts when I try to take a deep breathe which is not ideal. I am trying to ignore this problem because I cant do an x-ray. I just hope it will resolve on its own. 

I know I should be happy and I am but after almost 5 years TTC unfortunately what I feel is fear&#8230; Also I have no symptoms. breasts are sore but that's progesterone and I get it every other cycle anyway. There was one thing that made me hope though, from about 7-8 DPO I started having a barely noticeable AF cramp type of feeling. At first I thought I was just imagining it but after a few days they became a constant feature, from time to time during the day I feel very minor cramps, not strong enough to put them on my chart but enough for me to be aware of where my uterus is. 

The downside of having IVF abroad is that you are basically on your own, I feel quite lost and have no idea what my next step is supposed to be. I need to book a scan somewhere right? Do I go to GP now or is too early? anyway, I am away this week so I can only do it next week. also, bizarrely FF says I am 4 weeks pregnant now?? I have not even missed my period yet officially

I have also been dieting after ET but I did not do any fasting days just observed my 1,000-1,200 calorie limit and I am happy to report I have lost all of my IVf weight &#8211; 4 kg! It took two months! I still have 5 kg to lose to reach my normal weight but it's all forgotten now. I read that you should eat normally in the first trimester and only add 300 calories in the second and 500 calories in the third (It does not stop me from eating for 5 people though). I am also glad I leaned the calories stuff cos eating in pregnancy is all about getting most nutrients for less calories. 

It's still super early so at the moment I am just hoping and hoping and hoping


----------



## smurfy

Wow wow wow, amasing so happy for this news it is brilliant. Yes it must be difficult when you are being treated abroad, the key is to get progersterone, do you have any left over? Or could you visit GP often they can prescribe for you. That cramping feeling is a sign for sure as you say, slightly different and more constant that AF

Typical as you say you now have to travel, make sure you drink lots of water and try and eat well before and after the flight. Hopefully you will be fine when you get there as most of the hotels are pretty good, try and not eat outside of the hotel.

Take care xxx


----------



## Blythe

Just amazing. So so happy for you. :flower::happydance:


----------



## terripeachy

Awesome news Briss! I was worried when we didn't hear from you, but that jump in your chart confirms it in my book. Hooray!! I am so, so, so happy for you. Finally!! Enjoy your trip.


----------



## Zeri

double post


----------



## Zeri

Hi Briss - I've been silently following your story for a while - Congrats on your bfp!!! So happy for you! :happydance: You've been through so much. Really hope this is it for you! Just wanted to say that the cramps are definitely a good sign - probably implantation-related ( I had crampiness from 7 dpo up to 5 weeks too- sometimes they felt exactly like AF cramps, which was scary). It can be a good sign that the baby is snuggling in tight. Also, when you're due AF you're definitely already considered 4 weeks preggo. It's strange, but that's how they do it. So when you're 5 weeks, you would've technically been pregnant for 1 week. 

Flying should be ok. As long as you stay clear of unsafe foods/drinks while in Egypt you should be fine. It would be good to get a doctor's visit to confirm pregnancy, but most don't like to see you till about or close to 6 weeks as that's when you can pick up an image on the ultrasound and also perhaps hear a heartbeat. 

Hope that all goes well! :flower:


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## alison29

OMG!! So happy for you BRISS... The cramping is normal and so is feeling scared! Next step is an ultrasound for the heart beat around 6 weeks.


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## alison29

Once you have a heart beat the chance all will continue going well is something like 95%.


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## Wish4another1

Briss - I just had a feeling!! I am so happy for you! :happydance:


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## alison29

One more thing my friend at work is 8wks with her IVF baby she has no symptoms other than fatigue. No sickness no breast changes at all! So maybe you are just lucky with the lack of symptoms. :) Be careful in Egypt.


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## nobump

Congratulations briss so happy for you.

Your journey has not been an easy one.

Have a safe trip to egypt.


Can you get progesterone without a prescription? 

xxxx


----------



## Vonn

Briss!! I am so, so thrilled for you. A huge congratulations! I look forward to hearing/seeing the tests get darker as the days go on. :bfp::bfp::cloud9::kiss::bfp::bfp:
It's hard to believe it took on this cycle when you were already dealing with so much, but life is just crazy like that. These Munich folks do not seem to feel the same sense of urgency that you do, I'm sure that's really frustrating. 

Have a safe trip. Update when you can, you have lots of support and so many people rooting for you! Can't wait to see your chart show some "+" and your signature change once you are confident about it! Woohoo!! :happydance:


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## kits

Briss, that's so amazing!! Always kept praying for you ladies & check on how you're all doing <3 <3 <3 <3 <3

:happydance:

I'd wait a tiny bit more until a scan but that's just my humble little opinion, do whatever feels best for you.

Best of luck :hug:


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## Hope3

Briss your good news has put a smile on my face. 

Congratulations!


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## gingmg

Briss- YAY! Congrats!!!! I wish more than anything this is your forever baby. Hang in there!!!


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## _bella_

I don't follow this thread really, but I wanted to give a big hug and congratulations to Briss!! You and your little bean are in my thoughts every day. Keep positive!


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## Jazzbird

A huge congratulations to you and a very big hug from me Briss. I am so very happy for you!!

I remember the fear very well. Unfortunately it only lessens at 12 weeks when you know things are most likely ok. Just try to rest up and eat well. And imagine your little one growing.

This news has made my day.

Xxx


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## nobump

Briss how you doing?

Hows everyone else?

Afm bit worried now on day 15 of AF.... this past week it has varied from spotting to leaving bathroom like a crime. We're on holiday. Thankfully apartment has a washing machine. White towels and AF don't mix well at the best of times. Have bleed through a tampoon this morning in 2 hours....

Has Chinese meds screwed anyone's cycles up? Got new meds not sure if they have mucked things up. Managed some BD around O but can't imagine anything will be there anymore. Sorry just need to rant.

Xxxx


----------



## alison29

Hi No bump,
Yes when i took chinese meds it made my periods really heavy. I assumed it was the dong quai in them (idk though). I don't like white towels either they show everything! Especially makeup.

AFM I am waiting to ovulate had cm yesterday and bd last night on cd 13 today felt sure i would surge this morning but nothing and no more CM. So strange for me.

I am wondering about Briss too. If i were her I would post some pics of my BFP hint hint :)


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## nobump

Thanks will check names. Decided to stop meds. Got session next week will ask then 

Hope you catch the O


----------



## Briss

ladies thank you so much for your lovely messages. it's been great support to me. I finally got a response from Munich and it was very positive, he said we were lucky to start pregnancy with good beta levels and that they doubled as they should so it looks OK. the next step is a scan on Monday that should hopefully confirm the embryo is in my uterus. and after that 30 days after EC another scan to see a HB. needless to say i am terribly nervous. I stopped testing because at this point I can't do anything really to change the situation but seeing faint line freaks me out. I will also be repeating my bloods on Monday so this should tell us if the pregnancy is progressing well. 

I survived the trip to Egypt but unfortunately it was very stressful (all work related) and I did not sleep last night before the return flight and it was so cold on the plane so basically by the time we landed my bronchitis was on a completely different level. I also did not eat that well cos I was afraid of everything so ended up eating packaged sugary snacks + black tea all day long :( I have terrible cough now and a bit of sore throat. am really scared that my pregnancy started with me being so unwell. I did not get a chance to go to a doctor yet. I guess I was in denial about being sick hoping this would just resolve on its own. but it's just getting worse. I have not had temperature though which I think is good. 

*Nobump*, Generally, Chinese herbs improved my AF, I had no clots. but 15 day AF is super dangerous I'd totally go to a doctor once you are back from your holiday. are you taking iron? have you had your thyroid hormones checked? my mum had bleedings which was I think due to thyroid issues. Did you get your LH surge while still bleeding? so strange. maybe your bleeding is not hormonal but to do with uterus? i think you really need to see a specialist (not chinese but a western doctor, you may need to have hysteroscopy to check inside uterus). I'd stop all chinese herbs and just take multi bit + iron to compensate for blood loss. I am sorry you are going through this on your holiday. 

*alison*, good luck with this cycle. Keep BD, CM is a good sign even if your LH surge is bit late CM will help keep the sperm safe on their journey to your egg even if it takes a little longer. I am sorry I did not take any pictures of my BFP. I still have the tests but after a week they are probably not accurate. 

*Jazzbird*, thanks! unfortunately my fear prevents me from feeling happy. It's a shame cos that is probably the happiest moment of my life but all I feel is fear. I am just trying to stay calm and go through each scan/blood test. I have not even told my mum, feel terribly guilty about it.


----------



## gingmg

Briss- great news your levels are doubling. Given all you have been through to get here, its completely normal and understandable that you are so nervous and haven't been able to celebrate yet. Its OK. You will get there. One milestone at a time. Everything sounds to be moving forward as it should. I am praying for you and your little embryo.


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## Jazzbird

Echoing what Ging says. It's very natural to feel fear and that's with any wanted pregnancy let alone the years you have been trying. I was filled with fear for weeks really and I kept testing and freaking out if the line looked fainter. Those bloody clearblue digitals got me good and proper as I wasn't progressing with the timeframe. I lost a small fortune buying those. 

My humble advice is to remember there is nothing you can do to influence it. Honestly I ate crap for the first 4-5 months because I vomited up most things except for stodge. I believe I ate through a whole tub of margarine in about a week. I was also petrified if I didn't sleep ... 

Just take every day without a period as a good sign and try to think of your little embryo bedding in.

We are with you every step of the way. Just try and stay calm.

Xxx


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## Jazzbird

Nobump - some acu/herb treatments encourage complete discharge of the uterus - this is often if the patient is suffering with dark, clotty and painful periods (a pattern called blood stagnation) but I think 15 days is excessive and you should see a doctor. You should also call your acu/herbalist too. 

Hope all is ok. 
X


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## Vonn

Briss--great to hear from you, thanks for the update! I understand your fear, and it really doesn't help that you have had so much other stress (bronchitis, work stress) on top of it. I am sure with each step/procedure you will feel more and more confident. We've started the celebration so you can join us whenever you are ready! Can't wait for Monday's results (if you want to share). :kiss:

I've got lots of questions... Will you be going to a dr about the bronchitis? Do have an ob dr yet? And how is your DH handling it? You should definitely tell your mom.

Nobump--huge bummer about the crazy AF while on vacation. I hope you have still been able to enjoy yourself! I've never had much change to AF due to my herbs, and I've been on a few different kinds. I think my other health problems are preventing the acu and herbs from making much of a difference. I just keep hoping I will get there. It's a long and confusing road.

Alison--cycles can be so confusing and wonky! Mine has been also, getting a record 6 highs before a peak on my cb advanced opk. But we are taking this month off to let new meds do their thing. Can't help myself though, still test and temp. GL to you, hope you caught the sperm!


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## nobump

Briss that's great news about your bloods. Good luck for your scan. I will await your responses to vonns questions. 

I am on iron tablets. Had bloid checked recently but can ask about my thyroid function. Think clots are due to my fibroid. Had hystoscopy last year and seen a gynae last month with no real help.

Briss I don't test lh just going from cm, twinges and timing.. 

Good luck Alison. Hopefully you caught O.

Xxxx


----------



## alison29

Thanks for the replies! About my cm. I started to surge this morning. Took musinex got be in two later ..will try to repeat tomorrow am. Still not a bunch of cm like it was CD 9..just glad my lh is rising. 

Briss sounds fab..my friend at work struggles to feel happytoo she gets one ultrasound per weekj from 6-11 on Mondays by Thursday she is down again worried..Its also the hormones make you crazy even more worried than before. Its a crazy ride! So glad u get to experience it.


----------



## alison29

Thanks for the replies! About my cm. I started to surge this morning. Took musinex got be in two later ..will try to repeat tomorrow am. Still not a bunch of cm like it was CD 9..just glad my lh is rising. 

Briss sounds fab..my friend at work struggles to feel happytoo she gets one ultrasound per weekj from 6-11 on Mondays by Thursday she is down again worried..Its also the hormones make you crazy even more worried than before. Its a crazy ride! So glad u get to experience it.


----------



## Briss

*Jazzbird*, that's exactly why I stopped testing it was just causing so much stress and my mood for the day was totally determined by how dark the line was. you are right there is not much I can do to influence it anyway. I am very nervous about my next blood test result. My second result was measured in different units and I nearly fainted while I was trying to figure out whether beta went up. 

I started reading my pregnancy books which I bought after my first IVF but could not make myself read them while TTC, it was just too painful. obviously now I feel rather clueless what to do and what to eat, not to eat. luckily I have a small book that lists all foods and says which you can and cannot eat. "what to expect when you are expecting" seems good but food section is very complex, if I follow her advice and eat everything she says I'll just be spending the entire day trying to work out how to get all the nutrients in. also, i was taking wild salmon fish oil by solgar which I thought was brilliant until i read it was not suitable for pregnancy :( I am switching to higher nature fish oil and just take solgar prenatals and folate. 

*Vonn*, once we had our scan and bloods on monday I would make an appointment to check my bronchitis it's really scary what if they tell me to take antibiotics?? my chest pain is also worrying, I still cannot take a deep breath without feeling a lot of pain :( I still have not worked out how to register my pregnancy but I will think about it after my scan, will probably call my GP and ask for direction. as far as I know they won't see me before 11-12 weeks anyway so my scans will be private before that. 

We are still discussing whether to disclose our IVF or just say that we got pregnant naturally. I want to protect my child so it's not part of IVF statistics. on the other hand i think IVF pregnancies are considered high risk and you get slightly more attention which is good. 

*Nobump*, it's great that you are taking iron, i think it's very important for you at the moment. is your fibroid in the uterus? have you considered surgery? I do not know much about fibroids I know sometimes you can pregnant despite having them but more often I see ladies trying to remove them from time to time (they tend to regrow) before they TTC. could this be the main reason for not getting pregnant? what did hystoscopy show? what the doc recommended to do about the fibroid? if your gynae is no help can you try and get second opinion? it's appalling that they are not taking your long period seriously. 

*alison*, it's great that you are ovulating, hopefully you can catch your eggie this cycle. best of luck! sometimes CM and LH do not match but it's good that you BD while you had CM, still try and get at least one more session in :)


----------



## nobump

Briss I think that you should declare ivf so you can be mibitored closely. 

My hystoscopy was to remove a polyp pre ivf everything else looked ok. My fybroid was picked up during ivf. Have had a 4d scan. It is small and they didn't think it would impact future cycles. Docs have saud the risks of removing fibroids are high. Gynae recommend same drugs I am trying at rhe moment or progesterone tablets but then we would have to stop TTC or the coil. So until we call it quits I need to grin and bear things.

Xx


----------



## Briss

*nobump*, so fibroid appeared after you had your hysteroscopy? do the docs think it's fibroid that's causing your bleeding? or is it something else? I would not stop TTC but it would be great to sort out your bleeding because it might be affecting your chances. if I understand correctly you bleed before ovulation, right? your AF just longer than normal but it stops after O? I do not see how progesterone can help here. sorry I keep asking so many questions but your situation is very complex. you would benefit so much from a really good Gynae. so what meds are you taking now? I hope you are still able to enjoy your holiday, you really need a good break. thinking of you.


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## Delphine11

I've not been in this section very much recently, but I'm glad I checked today!

Briss - incredible news! Many, many congratulations on your BFP!

The worry and fear doesn't really go but it does ease a little. Eat well, rest and really try to keep calm. I meditated and did deep breathing whenever I got anxious. I think it helps keep your body relaxed and sending out the right hormonal environment.

Amazing news! Look after yourself :hugs:


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## Jazzbird

Briss - there's a fab baby app I bought for about £3 - it's called pregnancy +. It has lots of tools and interesting info on what not to eat plus pics of your embryo every week. It took me a few weeks to pluck up the courage to download and use it thinking I would be jinxing things but it's a nice distraction from worrying. I rember getting on a london bus a few days after I tested positive and became convinced the heavy vibration had dislodged the embryo!!! Easy for me to say but as long as you are taking a prenatal vitamin and eating a well balanced diet, I wouldn't worry too much about what you eat. The baby does indeed take what it needs. Look at all the hyperemis sufferers. 

Good call on the pregnancy tests - I remember reading that after a certain length of time the line should get fainter as the pregnancy progresses. I can't remember the name of this effect. 

As far as registering goes - get a telephone consult with your gp and they might put you on an ivf monitoring programme. Otherwise you just need to register your pregnancy at the doctors with the midwife. You can do this over the phone too. They will book you in for a booking appmtmt at 8 weeks. 

Babybond scans do early preg confirmation but think this is around 8 weeks. 

Sending lots of reassurance hugs your way. You're a very strong lady Briss.


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## Zeri

Briss said:


> *Jazzbird*, that's exactly why I stopped testing it was just causing so much stress and my mood for the day was totally determined by how dark the line was. you are right there is not much I can do to influence it anyway. I am very nervous about my next blood test result. My second result was measured in different units and I nearly fainted while I was trying to figure out whether beta went up.
> 
> I started reading my pregnancy books which I bought after my first IVF but could not make myself read them while TTC, it was just too painful. obviously now I feel rather clueless what to do and what to eat, not to eat. luckily I have a small book that lists all foods and says which you can and cannot eat. "what to expect when you are expecting" seems good but food section is very complex, if I follow her advice and eat everything she says I'll just be spending the entire day trying to work out how to get all the nutrients in. also, i was taking wild salmon fish oil by solgar which I thought was brilliant until i read it was not suitable for pregnancy :( I am switching to higher nature fish oil and just take solgar prenatals and folate.
> 
> *Vonn*, once we had our scan and bloods on monday I would make an appointment to check my bronchitis it's really scary what if they tell me to take antibiotics?? my chest pain is also worrying, I still cannot take a deep breath without feeling a lot of pain :( I still have not worked out how to register my pregnancy but I will think about it after my scan, will probably call my GP and ask for direction. as far as I know they won't see me before 11-12 weeks anyway so my scans will be private before that.
> 
> We are still discussing whether to disclose our IVF or just say that we got pregnant naturally. I want to protect my child so it's not part of IVF statistics. on the other hand i think IVF pregnancies are considered high risk and you get slightly more attention which is good.
> 
> *Nobump*, it's great that you are taking iron, i think it's very important for you at the moment. is your fibroid in the uterus? have you considered surgery? I do not know much about fibroids I know sometimes you can pregnant despite having them but more often I see ladies trying to remove them from time to time (they tend to regrow) before they TTC. could this be the main reason for not getting pregnant? what did hystoscopy show? what the doc recommended to do about the fibroid? if your gynae is no help can you try and get second opinion? it's appalling that they are not taking your long period seriously.
> 
> *alison*, it's great that you are ovulating, hopefully you can catch your eggie this cycle. best of luck! sometimes CM and LH do not match but it's good that you BD while you had CM, still try and get at least one more session in :)

Good that you're reading up on pregnancy-safe foods etc, Briss. I was going to mention from your last post that black tea (caffeinated) isn't recommended much in the first tri..


----------



## Briss

Zeri, that's exactly what I thought re black tea but I am reading this book "what to expect.." and they actually recommend black tea rather than herbal teas, this is so strange!


----------



## Zeri

Briss said:


> Zeri, that's exactly what I thought re black tea but I am reading this book "what to expect.." and they actually recommend black tea rather than herbal teas, this is so strange!

Oh, that's strange. Is that 'what to expect when you're expecting?" I have that book. As far as I know- you have to be careful with caffeinated drinks, like coffee, teas, sodas etc (black tea included)- many women skip caffeine all thru first tri... but in moderation they're ok. Herbal teas can be a bit iffy.


----------



## Clizard

Briss, fab news - congratulations! 
I wanted to put this link in for you:https://www.circlebloom.com/get-started/
I used one of the meditation series and I found it very good. Particularly as I am quite resistant to these kinds of things that suggest you take it slow! Definitely worth the money.


----------



## Briss

*Jazzbird*, thank you! I will make a note of that app, not ready yet though. I know what you mean re the heavy vibration, when I was on the plane it got bumpy and I thought the same thing! You are right at some point HCG beta will go down but it will be close to the end of the first trimester I think, so at the moment I am still looking for the number to increase and double every 2-3 days. 

*Zeri*, I am trying to be caffeine free (have not had coffee since before EC!), the only reason I had black tea in Egypt is because there was nothing else available. But the books are so cautious about herb tea that I am not sure whether what I drink is right. my main drinks are mate tea, Rooibos tea, nettle/mint tea, camomile tea, occasionally green tea. are these OK?

*Clizard*,Thank you! I have actually been thinking of circlebloom for fertility but just did not get around to buying it. I think I will get the pregnancy one https://www.circlebloom.com/get-started/pregnancy-program/ . maybe it will help.

*afm*, we had our scan but it's too early so we did not really see the baby. the important thing is that we did see a 4 mm dot which is inside my uterus!!! (I have to say I was a bit concerned about risks of ectopic so this is a relief)! still, not out of the woods yet though. Munich was expecting 5 mm at this stage so we are slightly behind. nervously waiting for my bloods to see if the pregnancy is progressing well. The doc told me to do another scan at least 10 days/2 weeks from now but Munich wants it early about 30 days after EC which is next week. I am not sure yet but I guess we will know more after today's bloods. I lied about natural conception, said we were in between treatments when we conceived naturally. Dh said he would prefer not to tell anyone about IVf so I decided to do as he wants. I think the doc could see it was IVf on the scan, this place is very good and they told me last time it's impossible to conceal a thing like that because EC leaves marks on the ovary. also he could see I had more than one follicle raptured. in a way it was good cos he looked everywhere to make sure there is no second pregnancy hiding somewhere outside uterus. I do not mind him knowing about IVF but I just did not want it to go on the record. One other thing that was disturbing there was a second cyst on my right ovary. I suspect this is after EC and maybe it's the follicle that they raptured that turned into a cyst? I am not sure what this means and what we should do about it. I completely forgot to ask all the questions, all I could think about was that little 4 mm dot in my uterus!! as soon as I saw it I just could not take my eyes off it. all the protections I have been building and trying not to relate to this pregnancy too much just to protect myself- all out of the window. 

my chest/bronchitis thing is really getting to me, I cant sleep because of the chest pain and coughing is now impossible, too painful. am seeing a firm's GP today.


----------



## alison29

That chest problem has been going on and on I hope they figure out how to help you today. Yay for the little dot! IT will be a little blob before you know it.


----------



## Jazzbird

Actually the hook effect affects pregnancy tests at 6 weeks. Something to do with way too much hcg for the test to handle. 

Glad the scan went ok, keep us posted on bloods x


----------



## Vonn

Briss-I am sure the "dot" was mezmerizing! Great news that it could be detected, and even better that it's in the right place. I was really excited to see a dominant follicle on my first ultrasound, I called it my "pre-baby," so I can only imagine the thrill of seeing an actual embryo. Good for you guys. Looking forward to hearing about the blood results. I am totally living vicariously through you right now. And enjoying it immensely. :winkwink:


----------



## melly2

Briss! Yay! This sounds so promising! I'm so happy for you. Keeping my fingers crossed that everything progresses normally. I know how nerve-wracking this time can be. I'm pulling for you and really, really hope this is it! :happydance:


----------



## Briss

*Vonn*, thank you! but please do let me know if you want me to drop off this thread with my pregnancy related updates. I know all too well how painful this can get. although this thread has been like comfort blanket (as well as knowledge resource!) to me since 2012. I can see you have ovulated, your chart looks good. amount of EWCM is very encouraging!


*afm*, I finally told my mum and know what? she already knew!! nobody told her she just knew. amazing! that child parent connection is just unbelievable. 

I got my bloods and I think they are OK (I calculated and they seem to fit in the doubling every 2-3 day requirement) but for some reason my progesterone dropped quite a lot. Maybe this is because I switched to Czech progesterone? I sent all this to Munich but I do not expect they come back soon, they always take ages to respond.

My GP unfortunately said there is nothing I can do about coughing/chest pain. he said it looked OK though he understands that I am suffering from pain and sleepless nights. interestingly he said chocolate should help with coughing and it does. again, he thought it was most likely due to pulling a muscle while coughing but it's really annoying first left side now right side. and in combination with terribly sensitive breasts because of progesterone it's just too much pain in the chest area. more importantly he said this is OK for pregnancy. so I am just going to continue suffering quietly, hopefully this will get better soon. I am definitely not taking any more business trips.


----------



## Zeri

Briss said:


> *Jazzbird*, thank you! I will make a note of that app, not ready yet though. I know what you mean re the heavy vibration, when I was on the plane it got bumpy and I thought the same thing! You are right at some point HCG beta will go down but it will be close to the end of the first trimester I think, so at the moment I am still looking for the number to increase and double every 2-3 days.
> 
> *Zeri*, I am trying to be caffeine free (have not had coffee since before EC!), the only reason I had black tea in Egypt is because there was nothing else available. But the books are so cautious about herb tea that I am not sure whether what I drink is right. my main drinks are mate tea, Rooibos tea, nettle/mint tea, camomile tea, occasionally green tea. are these OK?
> 
> *Clizard*,Thank you! I have actually been thinking of circlebloom for fertility but just did not get around to buying it. I think I will get the pregnancy one https://www.circlebloom.com/get-started/pregnancy-program/ . maybe it will help.
> 
> *afm*, we had our scan but it's too early so we did not really see the baby. the important thing is that we did see a 4 mm dot which is inside my uterus!!! (I have to say I was a bit concerned about risks of ectopic so this is a relief)! still, not out of the woods yet though. Munich was expecting 5 mm at this stage so we are slightly behind. nervously waiting for my bloods to see if the pregnancy is progressing well. The doc told me to do another scan at least 10 days/2 weeks from now but Munich wants it early about 30 days after EC which is next week. I am not sure yet but I guess we will know more after today's bloods. I lied about natural conception, said we were in between treatments when we conceived naturally. Dh said he would prefer not to tell anyone about IVf so I decided to do as he wants. I think the doc could see it was IVf on the scan, this place is very good and they told me last time it's impossible to conceal a thing like that because EC leaves marks on the ovary. also he could see I had more than one follicle raptured. in a way it was good cos he looked everywhere to make sure there is no second pregnancy hiding somewhere outside uterus. I do not mind him knowing about IVF but I just did not want it to go on the record. One other thing that was disturbing there was a second cyst on my right ovary. I suspect this is after EC and maybe it's the follicle that they raptured that turned into a cyst? I am not sure what this means and what we should do about it. I completely forgot to ask all the questions, all I could think about was that little 4 mm dot in my uterus!! as soon as I saw it I just could not take my eyes off it. all the protections I have been building and trying not to relate to this pregnancy too much just to protect myself- all out of the window.
> 
> my chest/bronchitis thing is really getting to me, I cant sleep because of the chest pain and coughing is now impossible, too painful. am seeing a firm's GP today.

Go little dot, go! :happydance: How exciting!

The teas you mentioned should be fine (in moderation), from what I know. 

Hope your chest pain eases soon.


----------



## nobump

Briss that is great news about your scan, so exciting. How can the docs know about IVF from the scans? Sorry if I am being stupid?

The meds I was taking from the acu person were: Jia Wei Xiao Wan, this was to calm/destress me I think, Tiao Jing Cu Yun Wan and Nuan Gong Yun Zi Wang, I think these were to help with my cycle, one of these was only stated recently, not sure which..

Unfortunately I am still bleeding, so phoned and got an emergency doc appointment and he has prescribe Norethisterone 3 times a day (days 5 to 25 of cycle) so can take for the next 5-7 days to see if it helps.. he also recommended I take iron 3 times a day again... I am also having bloods done to check my thyroid and blood count, need to book an appointment to get bloods taken. Doc has also encourage me to make a decision one way or another soon.... Will look to book private appointment soon... I just feel worn out... want this to end one way or another... I just need to make up my mind which way... sorry to put a negative post... I have a counseling session on Thursday, hopefully this will help.

xxx


----------



## alison29

Please don't quit posting..I would be sad. You have been so great about sharing all the hard times I think its only fair that u get to share the success. That's my opinion anyway.


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## Briss

*nobump*, I'm not quite sure how they can tell but last time the doc showed me the place on the ovary where the needle went in for EC? he said apparently if you look closely you can see and always tell if EC took place.

I think I was taking Tiao Jing Cu Yun Wan at one point from day 5 but I did not like it as it shorted my cycle even more. It seems like what you have is all ready made formulas, have they been somehow changed to suit your particular situation? 

I am sorry you are still bleeding, very worrying considering you think you already ovulated. Norethisterone is basically progesterone. Did the doc explain why you are bleeding? thyroid is one option but could this be something else? did he do a scan or something? good that they are at least checking your bloods. 

This is very hard, I am so sorry you are going through this. what kind of decision they are expecting you to make? to stop TTC or not? that's so unfair! is it not possible to fix your bleeding so you could carry on TTC? I so hope your next private appointment will be more optimistic. it just looks like you are not getting proper care. I so wish there was something I could do to help you. thinking of you

*afm*, my cold is back, and that's on top of chest pain and coughing. every sneeze hurts so bad cos of the chest situation. I've been unwell since mid Jan, this is the third time I am getting some kind of virus/infection with only 1-2 days in between illnesses and I have not felt myself in 1.5 month! I do not mind all that I just hope my little one is OK.


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## Vonn

Briss--My opinion is don't stop posting here! You have had so many frustrating TTC experiences & I think you deserve to share all of your big and little victories (and frustrations) on this thread! I am *thrilled* to follow your progress. 

I do hope you start to feel better with the chest pain, coughing, and cold. I feel like there has to be something that can help. Once I got a weird post-cold or virus asthma condition that last for a few months. I had trouble breathing deep, would get a ticklish feeling in my throat, and it would send me into a coughing spell that was extremely painful because I'd pulled a muscle, too. It happened during a high stress time in my life. One thing that really helped was tea (I think it was mint) with a good amount of honey. It really coated and soothed my throat and stopped that ticklish/weezy feeling from turning into a coughing fit. It doesn't seem like this is exactly what you are going through, but close enough that I thought I'd share my experience.

Nobump--I hope you get some answers soon about your bleeding. Be good to yourself and rest, losing a lot of blood is literally draining so don't run yourself ragged and get sick on top of it.

AFM--DH and I took this month off because I switched my thyroid meds and am wanting to get that sorted out & hopefully optimized before jumping into the medicated IUIs. I feel if we would have done one this month it would have been a total waste. We might take one more month off, too, but haven't decided yet. Of course, I can't help myself and continue to do opk tests and take my temp. I just like to follow my cycle, I guess!

I oved so late this month, day 20. I can't help but think that's part of my problem; by the time the egg is released it's past peak & isn't any good. I am really hoping the scans and ov triggers done with IUI will help me pop out eggs at the right time. But who knows, right? It's as much of a science as it is a mystery, in my opinion! :wacko:

Hi to everyone else!


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## Briss

*Vonn*, thanks for sharing! that does actually sound very similar to what I have (minus the cold). I used to have bronchitis with asthmatic component which is also similar. but it was really nasty cos it went on and on for weeks and I'd get it 2-3 times a year. I so hope I can beat this thing. I am having lemon/honey drink all day long and it does help with coughing. not sure what to do about the muscle though, just so painful. 

I hope your new thyroid medication will make a difference. I am actually checking my TSH all the time. I know it can go up sometimes in pregnancy so i just want to make sure I catch it in time and raise the alarm and get the synthetic hormone if necessary. 

your chart looks good, very clear temp rise! you can still TTC naturally while you are waiting for your next IUI, you just never know you may get lucky. I would not worry about ovulation date, CD 20 is not bad (and better than ovulating early anyway), your egg is fine it can only "go bad" in the context of IVF when there is stimulation and artificial ovulation suppression. in a natural cycle trust your body it knows just the right time to release your egg.


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## alison29

I feel your pain with colds BRISS it is the absolute worst. I have had 4 since halloween. Makes everything a chore. I imagine you can't tell if it's pregnancy fatigue or virus fatigue. Any symptoms yet? Keep washing your hands every chance you get. May help prevent the catching of the next cold bug lurking around.

Hi Vonn and No Bump..Are you lurking Blythe? If so hello!

When do you think you will do your IUI Vonn? Will you use ovulation stim meds like clomid or injectables?


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## nobump

Thanks all. I have booked bloods for Tuesday morning. Doc said he would let me know if there is a thyroid issue. The doc will refer me again to see about my heavy bleeding. But all the things they can do to help the bleeding stops me TTC.

We are basically unexplained but through IVF I now know I have low AMH. DH numbers are also low so thats why we used ICSI both times. We also having timing issues. On demand doesn't work well.

Had a long day at work. Feeling drained. Have noticed I am breathing heavy had a TC today. Someone said they tthought some on the call was outside as the heard wind... think it was me. Bleeding has reduced today will see how things progress this week.


Briss thats a bummer you are feeling poorly again.

Vonn is your thyroid issues the reason your having issues? Taking time out helps take the pressure off but understand you continuing all your testing. 

Xxxx


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## Vonn

Briss--Healing the pulled muscle is all about time and rest. Try not to aggravate it (which I know can be incredibly hard). Mine took a couple months to heal. It was really painful. I am sorry you are dealing with this and can't just enjoy things.

I'm excited to get started on the medicated IUIs. I'm not sure which type of med the dr will have me try first. He had said he wanted to do three IUIs before reassessing (and probably pushing IVF). I get 6 per confirmed pregnancy covered by my insurance, meds included. I did one unmedicated in December, so I have 5 left. I'll probably push to use them all and try out a variety of meds before moving on to IVF. I have no insurance coverage for that, so I'd prefer to experiment with different med combos and see what stimulates me best (or find out if stims don't work for me) on someone else's dime for as long as I can!

I'm not sure how long I want to wait for the thyroid med change to kick in before starting the IUIs. What I am trying to do with the meds would require a long-winded explanation and I don't want to bore anyone so I won't get into too much. They say it usually takes 2-3 months for the reverse T3 I am trying to drop out of my system to do so & it's obvious when it happens, so I am really hoping that happens for me. Then I'll know!

At any rate, bd on demand doesn't work great for us, so I am okay with not trying naturally for a month. Plus, I am trying really hard to get the candida out of my system and don't mind a little time off BD so as to avoid passing it on to DH. You can pass it on if the partner is susceptible, has a weak gut flora, etc. I am forcing my DH to take probiotics now (in addition to vitamins, fish oil, and zinc) to try and protect him. 

Okay, enough of me rambling on...


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## alison29

That sounds great Vonn 6 covered IUI's is amazing. You probably won't even need IVF.


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## Wish4another1

Briss - so glad to see that you put your positive test on your FF chart!!! green makes me happy!!! and please keep posting!!! Hope you are doing well today! :hugs:

Von - bd on demand doesn't work well for us either...but it sounds like you are doing the best you can to give yourselves the best chances - so don't loose hope - I think you are doing a good job at fighting for yourself - you know your body best... Here's hoping for a BFP sooner rather than later!!! 

nobump - hope that bleeding is gone! :hugs2:

:hi: to everyone else...


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## Vonn

Hi to everyone!

Briss--Are you starting to feel any better yet? How are things?

Nobump--Have you stopped bleeding? Have you ever had such a long AF before, or is this totally unusual?

AFM--Nothing TTC to report. The weather is supposed to change here, starting today. I'm so ready for warmer temps! It's been really cold the past few days. I can't complain too much, though, as this winter was not nearly as brutal as last winter. And we've had way less snow and hassle than those elsewhere (I'm thinking of you, Boston).


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## nobump

Thanks for asking wish4another1 and Vonn, AF looks as though it is ending blood is looking brown, been taking the meds for 5 days now, so maybe they have helped. Next cycle is due Wednesday. Never bleed this long. When I was away on holiday I stopped coQ10 as I didn't pack them... was thinking it could be that, so bought another pack and started them again. 

Shattered, tough being back at work, had a few long days, glad it is the weekend, we are away this weekend visiting family so not sure we will get any time to ourselves, wish we could go on a permanent holiday!


Vonn, big drop in temp for me being home from hols.


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## Jazzbird

Briss - how are you doing? Thinking of you! X


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## Briss

*nobump*, I do not think coq10 has any effect on the bleeding. When did they tell you to stop progesterone? I so hope your bleeding will resolve soon. 

*Vonn*, your IUI strategy looks great. Hopefully that's all that it takes for you to get your BFP. I cant agree more re warmer weather. I think my cough wont get better until the air outside is warm enough. I have seen pictures of Boston  all covered in snow. I like your chart, big difference between pre and post O temps  very healthy! Fingers crossed your LH will be OK this cycle. 
*
Wish4another*, I take tiny steps to affirm my pregnancy in my mind but I am still so very scared. even putting a positive pregnancy blood test result on my chart was a huge step for me. I could not join any of the pregnancy threads, they are all so happy and excited there I just do not feel I fit in. 

*afm*, my cold is much better but I am still coughing and it does not really help to heal my pulled muscle so chest pain is still there.

I have seen my GP and registered (I think) my pregnancy although no one did any tests so they just took my word for it. They have referred me to a midwife so I am waiting now to hear back from the hospital on the date of a midwife appointment. It's getting a bit more serious. Still no symptoms except very noticeable changes in my breasts and some minor cramps. 

unfortunately, I could not keep myself from all the pastries (now that I am not losing weight) and as a result already put 1.5 kg back on. disappointing, considering you are not supposed to gain weight in the first 3 months. Other than that I think I eat pretty well, also have a pint of veggy juice every other day. I have booked my scan for next week, basically the longer you wait the more you will be able to see but the scarier it gets.


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## Jazzbird

Briss - stuff the diet. In a few more weeks you might be in the throes of morning sickness. I say eat and be merry. I wish I had gone to all my fav restaurants before my diet of peanut butter, toast and hot cross buns kicked in. Wait as long as you can as there is better confirmation for the scan ...


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## nobump

Briss enjoy eating while you can. Hope you start to feel better soon. 

Doc suggested I took tablets for 5 days so only took them until Friday incleded. Thought I had stop blood was brown. Had nothing over weekend. but started spotting today. Cd25 so could be next cycle starting early. Going to get bloods done tomorrow so will ask nurse about things then.

Had tough weekend. Seen neice and nephew on Sunday took them out the dropped them at their separate mum's one is pregnant with number 4 and the other is so unfit to be a mum she is a complete waste of space. To top it all my little brother new partner had there new born at my folks. Kept thinking that it should be my baby lying on the floor and my folks fussing over him/her. So tired of all this. Xx


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## Briss

nobump, hopefully it's your next cycle starting right on time (it was supposed to start on wednesday, right?). you have been through so much I so wish your bleeding is resolved soon so you could TTC and finally get your BFP.

it's so painful when you see people unfit to be parents getting pregnant all the time with no difficulty. I got to a point where I could not see families, any families even happy ones. I was not able to go to a park because there are so many people with children and I just felt it was too much for me to bare. even now I cannot communicate with women who got pregnant easily, they just can't appreciate this underlying sadness that stays with you if you had to face infertility. but I could much easier relate to people who survived nazi camps :( infertility is a terrible thing.


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## alison29

Thanks so much for the update BRISS. How many weeks are you? Get in there and get a scan already  It is so exciting and terrifying. My work friend just had 10 week scan and it was still scary for her. The juicing sounds amazing. I felt the best when i did that and would do if eating for two like you. It gets so expensive. One glass of juice is about 10$ of produce it's crazy. You are so right about the scars of infertility. Most people i am unsure of how easy it was to get pregnant but my inlaws would go on about how they got pregnant after one or two months bla bla. I am glad both their dh's have been fixed now. It would make me pretty jealous and and wonder why that couldn't be us too.


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## Vonn

Briss--Thanks for the update! Glad to hear the cold is improving, those can make you so miserable. 

I think it's great you are taking baby steps in acknowledging your pregnancy. It's okay to be concerned. But try to allow yourself a little space for celebration because for this moment you have achieved what you have been trying so long to achieve. At least honor your resilience and persistence. It's impressive.

I've thought a lot about transferring the fear and anxiety of TTC & infertility to pregnancy-related fear and anxiety when (if) I become pregnant. I don't want to miss out on experiencing the joy of that elusive bfp because I am so afraid that something bad will happen. I don't have any answers about how to do that, but hopefully I will build up some tools to help me get there. The one thing I am sure of is that it is easy to say & really, really hard to do. There's lots of hard stuff on this journey, but the pay-off still seems worth it! GL to all!


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## Briss

*Vonn*, that's really interesting. let me know if you learn how to stop the fear ruining the precious little moments of pure happiness that happen in your life not that often. It really is sad to miss out on those moments. I think in my case fear came after I had a chemical on my very first IVF. I tested daily with cheapies and was getting bfns but I did feel something in my uterus and then I started spotting from 10 DPO and I was sure there was something happening so I tested with FRER and got a BFP. I burst into tears and laughter at the same time, to say I was happy means nothing, it was beyond happy. i shared the pics here cos the line was faint but not that faint and everyone was so happy for me and congratulations flew in from everywhere. I went to bed a happy person that night, first time in years. I woke up to a bfn :( not a sniff of a line. I could not believe it. I did a blood test and my beta was low. it dropped to below 5 in two days and i stopped progesterone. Basically it's that drop from "happy" to "devastated" in a day that made me develop fear I think. I know it was not a mc, just a chemical but I am still sad. every day I pass a pharmacy on the way home (where I went to buy every pregnancy test available after I got that BFP so i could test the next day) and even though it's been 1.5 years it reminds me of that experience and my mind goes through the whole trauma of happy-devastated all over again. and there is nothing i can do cos it happens so quickly in my mind by the time I realise it I've already gone through all the emotions and am actually crying. The problem is of course that even if i did not feel that happy when I got that BFP I'd still be devastated by losing it so there seem to be no point in depriving yourself from happy emotions (if you look at it rationally, that is). but then there is also negative experience of your fellow TTCers which you take close to your heart and over the years you accumulate a lot of it. 

My circle and bloom finally arrived!! I am going to try one of the mind-body sessions maybe it will help be more positive. 

*alison*, I am using veggies which are relatively cheap. sometimes I use a kg of carrots for a pint of juice (my juicer is not very good so I need more veg) which is around 1.5 pounds (for organic ones, otherwise even cheaper). or I use 2 beets + 1 apple + 5 celery sticks + 1 pepper (it should not be more than 2 pounds for a pint). I think I am between week 5 and 6, but I am still confused how they calculate it.


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## nobump

Think my reply disappeared.
Definitely day one. Been bleeding through super Ts in under 3 hours.... think I will take tomorrow off. Just feel wiped out.

Briss it is understandable given what you have been through to be cautious. 

Vonn that sounds like a good technique to master. Be good if you can and share tips with us all.

Alison where ars you in your cycle? On phone so will lose page if I navigate to your link

Xxx


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## nobump

Think my reply disappeared.
Definitely day one. Been bleeding through super Ts in under 3 hours.... think I will take tomorrow off. Just feel wiped out.

Briss it is understandable given what you have been through to be cautious. 

Vonn that sounds like a good technique to master. Be good if you can and share tips with us all.

Alison where ars you in your cycle? On phone so will lose page if I navigate to your link

Xxx


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## alison29

Briss update on the circle and bloom. Did you buy a CD? I know i have a mind block and need something.

No bump, It looks like yesterday was cd1. I completely missed my O this month. Bd on on cd 8, and cd 13(night) and 14. I think i started opks too late at day 10 or 11. I think Ovulated cd 11-12. thought i had a quck surge and missed it on cd 13 but hat is not the case.


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## alison29

No bump it i guess we will ovulation stalkers at the same time this month. I am going to start opks cd 8. It's hard getting a pm reading with the amount of water that is good to drink but oh will have to drink a ton in the morning quit at noon and test at 5 pm.


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## nobump

Sorry to hear AF has appeared for you Alison. Hopefully starting testing earlier will give you a better chance in catching O this cycle.

AF is hear with a vengeance, was bleeding through yesterday super Ts in an hour, went to docs yesterday, now on Mefenamic acid and Tranexamic acid to help stop the bleeding, will start Norethiserone on day 5, doc had recommended not TTC while on Norethiserone as they have not proof it is safe, but think it is only progesterone so not sure what issues it would cause. I don't test for ov but can usually detect O by noting CM and I get pain in my LHS mid month. 

I tried OV sticks in the past and trialled clear blue test, and day 3 and 21 test have always shown I am ovulating... but guess with low AMH my numbers are not great... if I am taking the Norethiserone I think it may confuse the tests. Will look to get some BD weekend before O, weekdays don't work well for us due to working hours conflicts, unless I can plan a long WFH lunch or late start...

Think my body just needs a break from heavy bleeding.

Briss how are you doing?

Vonn looks like you will be cycle buddies with Alison and I, are you taking this month off or are you going for IUI?

Wishforanother1 how are you doing?

xx


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## Briss

alison, I got my circle and bloom, it's several CDs for each week. Nohing special, but it's nice when someone else tells you that everything is fine. unfortunately i cant do the breathing exercises cos my chest hurts really bad when i take a deep breathe.


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## Briss

A very quick and depressing update, I had a scan today and left the clinic in tears. I am 6W5W, but there was no HB and my HCG increased from 3,200 on 21 DPO to only 10,582 on 35 DPO &#8211; in 2 weeks! Progesterone dropped from 40 to 27 and estrogen also decreased. They talked a lot about mc, but I just switched off and did not hear much. I am desperately trying to find some kind of strength reserve somewhere in me to be able to live through this.


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## terripeachy

Briss-I'm not sure about the numbers...did you check betabase? A lot of people go on there to be reassured about their numbers. Do you have an appointment to go back? How is your body feeling? Just wanted to let you know that I'm thinking about you. :hugs: I am praying that everything will be ok..You have a strong baby in there...stay positive. <3


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## Blythe

Briss - i do not know about the numbers - i thought the HCG evened out. Do you go back next week...?

I terribly sorry to read that you had this news today - i know that HB are not always detected under 7 wks.

I am thinking of you and hope so very much that you are not put through any further heartbreak.


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## Zeri

Oh, I'm so sorry, Briss...... :-( :-( :-( How absolutely heartbreaking and disappointing. I so wish you could have seen a heartbeat today and be told that everything was okay - this is what you deserve after everything you've been through! So sorry you had such horrible news instead. :-( Did you manage to get what the doctors said the next step would be? Are you expected to come back in for a follow-up? There are times when a heartbeat can be detected at a later stage, but unfortunately if the hcg numbers are on the low end, and progesterone dropping, and no hb - those are not very promising for a viable pregnancy, unfortunately. :cry: So sorry... 

Did the dr. mention any possible reason? Unfortunately, the rate of mc is pretty high before the 6 week mark - and there could be any number of reasons why the pregnancy is not progressing - chromosomal abnormalities being top of the list. Maybe it was just a matter of plain old bad luck or poorer quality of egg/sperm? You did get pregnant, though - and that's definitely a positive....although I'm sure if it brings you little comfort now.


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## Briss

I just got a response from Munich, usually they take ages to respond but this time they responded immediately. The email is just too depressing to repeat here but basically my choices are wait for it to happen naturally in next few weeks or do an op and get the embryo tested for chromosomes. I just hate myself for letting go and feeling happy, I had the whole new life planned for us already and now I need to go back into my "normal" TTC state of mind, remove all pregnancy related things from the house. just not sure what to do with all pregnancy related things in my head, I have built so many in the last few weeks.


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## smurfy

Briss said:


> I just got a response from Munich, usually they take ages to respond but this time they responded immediately. The email is just too depressing to repeat here but basically my choices are wait for it to happen naturally in next few weeks or do an op and get the embryo tested for chromosomes. I just hate myself for letting go and feeling happy, I had the whole new life planned for us already and now I need to go back into my "normal" TTC state of mind, remove all pregnancy related things from the house. just not sure what to do with all pregnancy related things in my head, I have built so many in the last few weeks.

So so so sorry, my heart goes out to you. You have been through so much and was extremely happy for you, this is not fair. Agree so hard to go from letting yourself be happy to this position. I thought once I got pregnant that would be it, but it wasnt  I had MMC in Dec just after 7 weeks, I was heart broken like you and after 4/5 years of trying also. I also thought it I was going to miscarry I would not find out during scan and it would be private, for me this was the most shocking part of it.

You will feel very numb for a week, I was also given same information as you, in that you can wait to see what happens naturally, they said after you stop taking IVF drugs it should start after 5 days, mine did not and then had to have op. The only thing that helped looking back on it, if I had to have op the same time I had found out I would have been even worse. I would suggest you wait for next week and then see what happens. 

When your read you will see at least positive you did get pregnant and I was told a MMC is your body wanting to hold on to the pregnancy  that broke my heart.

Please take care and let me know if you need any advice

Lots of love xxxx


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## Briss

*terripeachy*, according to database my numbers looked OK but I compared them to my previous levels 2 weeks ago and they should have increased more. I know at 6-7 weeks not everyone gets a HB and I was getting a lot of hope from that but Munich seemed very conclusive. they said "little hope". also embryo looked strange but DH managed to see hands (I doubt that's what he saw though). He is so hoping bless him, it was such a shock. I feel normal, no symptoms and no spotting but last week my breasts were less sensitive and stopped growing. and that got me worried.

*Zeri*, they offered to do the chromosome check on the embryo if we do an abortion. not sure if this helps us at all. 

*smurfy*, thanks. I am so sorry for your mc. It's just so hard. I so hate it that I have to go back to TTC. My Dh loved me so much when I was pregnant and happy, he said he feels he finally got real me back and now it's all over. "unfair" just does not even come close to describe it. I am trying not to think about it in these terms because it pains me so, I need to figure out the shortest and safest way from here to my next EC/ET. Focusing on my next IVF is the only think I can hold on to not to fall apart completely. 

*Blythe*, I am so naïve, we planned a holiday from Friday to South of France. Now I feel like it will turn into a trip to Munich for abortion&#8230; what's better mc or abortion? I cant decide. mc may take weeks and weeks and I really need to get back into TTC asap, 39 is just around the corner. It was such a relief that I got pregnant and have my first baby before I am 40 because there was hope we could TTC No. 2, now this thought just causes me a lot of pain. but then abortion is an op and can do some damage as well although it would allow us to test the embryo and find out if it was due to chromosome (I am pretty sure it is). mc is also not a guarantee we wont have to end up doing abortion anyway if something is left behind. It might be even worse. cant think straight at the moment. I do not need to decide now I will do another test and scan this week to be sure


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## Briss

*smurfy*, you were right I just got another email from Munich and they recommend to do another scan next week which will be conclusive. I guess they will tell me to stop the meds after that and wait for mc.


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## smurfy

Briss said:


> *smurfy*, you were right I just got another email from Munich and they recommend to do another scan next week which will be conclusive. I guess they will tell me to stop the meds after that and wait for mc.

yes good then you can make informed decision. From the MMC scan they measured at 8mm and when I went back 10 days later had not reduced a lot to 7mm, there was no heart beat as we expected. Once I knew after the 2nd scan there was no heartbeat I didn't think of as abortion at all and they call medical miscarriage. It would have taken weeks from my situation and after 2 weeks I was ready to let go even though very hard. They also informed me approx. 15% of people even if have natural miscarriage then have to have op due to tissue being left over which can cause infection. I receovered very quickly and had period approx. 6 weeks later since 5th Dec op I will be having frozen transfer next week take care xx


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## Briss

smurfy, thank you. I agree medical mc is a better term. abortion sounds bad. After talking to Munich they actually said medical mc is covered by German insurance but because I do not have it it will be quite expensive for me to pay myself. not sure if I get this option in London on the NHS but even then I will be so worried if it's done properly. I'd prefer to do it privately because my uterus is working properly cos clearly it's trying to hold on to pregnancy and out of 3 ET I had chemical and now mc so two implantations (or attempt at implantation) so to me it looks like my uterus is doing a good job just unlucky with an embryo. I really want to make sure my uterus is fine after that. 

It's so ironic when after so many failures and 6 IVfs I thought this cant get any worse. failed IVF is so much better than a mc. I really did think we would do natural IVF until we get a lucky embryo but I just did not factor in the possibility of us not finding out if our embryo is not the lucky one until several weeks into pregnancy. last 5 years my life was all about finding new low points &#8230; 

btw, I do not know if anyone heard Elton john / Gabana argument about IVF but that's exactly the reason I did not want to disclose this pregnancy as a result IVF. too much prejudice I really wanted to protect my baby.


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## smurfy

Briss said:


> smurfy, thank you. I agree medical mc is a better term. abortion sounds bad. After talking to Munich they actually said medical mc is covered by German insurance but because I do not have it it will be quite expensive for me to pay myself. not sure if I get this option in London on the NHS but even then I will be so worried if it's done properly. I'd prefer to do it privately because my uterus is working properly cos clearly it's trying to hold on to pregnancy and out of 3 ET I had chemical and now mc so two implantations (or attempt at implantation) so to me it looks like my uterus is doing a good job just unlucky with an embryo. I really want to make sure my uterus is fine after that.
> 
> It's so ironic when after so many failures and 6 IVfs I thought this cant get any worse. failed IVF is so much better than a mc. I really did think we would do natural IVF until we get a lucky embryo but I just did not factor in the possibility of us not finding out if our embryo is not the lucky one until several weeks into pregnancy. last 5 years my life was all about finding new low points
> 
> btw, I do not know if anyone heard Elton john / Gabana argument about IVF but that's exactly the reason I did not want to disclose this pregnancy as a result IVF. too much prejudice I really wanted to protect my baby.

Hi I am doing IVF private similar to you as over 35 and my area won't cover us. My private clinic do not do medical miscarriage so I was able to transfer to a hospital of my choose local to me, the nurse faxed over all my details to arrange via NHS. I was put in private room and they really looked after me. You can get done on NHS most hospitals have an EPU where this is dealt with so you should be covered and to be honest you won't want to be traveling to do this. 

Also if you have BUPA tmost policies cover this but the speed for NHS was within 2 days so did not use it. 

Agree it seems like your body is doing what it is suppose too. 1 in 3 pregnancies ends this way. Do you know what size the fetus was that will give you indication what stage it got too? 

Ps yes saw the news how awful and totally agree that people are prejudiced take care xxx


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## nobump

Briss my heart goes out to you. Life is so unfair. You ate si supportive of everyone in this thread.

Looks as though you are taking the positives from the fact you got your BFPs.

Hoping for a positive 2nd scan. 

Waiting a week will allow you time to digest things.

I can't offer advice re waiting or going for the op. But has the clinic recommend a break before your next cycle?

Xxxx


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## Briss

Nobump, no the clinic said once this is over we can plan the next step.

Thinking back last week I did notice my breasts stopped growing, I did not need to pee as often and last few days I got acne which I usually get on hormonal change like O or AF. I was secretly worried something was wrong but could not exactly say what. I also have noticeable AF cramps today but it might be psychological after the news.


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## Briss

Smurfy, my scan says gestational sac 12 x 9 x 8; yolk sac 1.7 x 1.8 x 2.0; embryo present; I'm not sure what this means but the sonographer said it looks like 5 weeks rather than 6

I stupidly went to gp to register my pregnancy and they are supposed to refer me to a midwife. Maybe she can refer me to a mc management unit?


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## Blythe

briss. You would get the option of D&C on nhs if what is happening does turn out to be MMC. You may not have that option open to you though as it can happen naturally and quite fast. The girl at work had 2 MMC - heavy bleeding and scan showed uterus was clear. She had second within days of 7 week scan.....the first around the 10 wk point (no scans beforehand but only after bleeding which showed empty sac.....she had period within 3 weeks although came back after 6 with second). 

Once you have conclusive facts you will be better place to make a decision based on what gets you to the next cycle the quickest and in good health.

My heart bleeds for you tonight. It's just too much. I am so sorry this scan did not show a hb at this stage. I pray that the next scan will be different.


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## gingmg

Briss I am so incredibly sorry. I have no words to comfort you but please know my heart goes out to you. Its so unfair.


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## smurfy

Briss said:


> Smurfy, my scan says gestational sac 12 x 9 x 8; yolk sac 1.7 x 1.8 x 2.0; embryo present; I'm not sure what this means but the sonographer said it looks like 5 weeks rather than 6
> 
> I stupidly went to gp to register my pregnancy and they are supposed to refer me to a midwife. Maybe she can refer me to a mc management unit?

Yes the gp should be able to help but they will put you directly in touch with local early pregnancy unit to talk through options in detail. Suggest you plan doctors appointment this week to inform them what may happen and hopefully you do this in UK. Ok not sure about sac size but least they told you approx 5 weeks. X


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## Hope3

Briss, I've been one of those silently cheering you on from the sidelines. I'm so so sorry for your loss.

I just wanted to say you weren't stupid for registering the pregnancy with the GP. You did what you were supposed to do. Please don't beat yourself up. You were right to see the GP, be happy, have dreams, make plans because that's what pregnant women do. 

When I had my early miscarriage I contacted the Miscarriage Association for advice. They're UK based.

Take care of yourself.


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## BBbliss

Briss, I'm so terrible sorry for this... I hardly ever come here anymore, after two years of TTC I felt it was time to put my time somewhere else. I was so happy to hear the good news but came back today to make sure things where going well...and...this now, I know how much this hurts, after only two IVFs I had to stop. I do admire your strength in not giving up. I hope the next one is your last one, and all of this will just feel like a bad dream.


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## Vonn

Oh, Briss, my heart goes out to you and your DH. I am so sorry to hear this news. :hugs::hugs: You are in my thoughts. For what it's worth, I really do believe you will get your rainbow baby.


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## Clizard

Thinking of you Briss. 
Whatever happens, don't kick yourself for the joy, excitement, hope and love you felt because of this pregnancy xx


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## alison29

I will pray to Briss.


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## Briss

Ladies, thank you so much for your support!

it turns out the NHS can be really efficient in certain circumstances. It usually takes for ever to get an appointment with my GP but as soon as I mentioned mc I got one the same day and he immediately called an early pregnancy unit and they booked me for tomorrow morning. He was trying to be positive as well and said it's still a good sign i got pregnant and it means we can have a healthy baby. 

I am scared to think about my next EC but somehow I need to get there asap. It helps me cope thinking about our next IVF. I cried a lot yesterday and today and will probably cry more until my next BFP (which I probably won't believe until I see a healthy HB). 

I am pretty sure this is due to chromosomes maybe DH's sperm was not good enough or maybe it's my ageing egg. keep thinking about immunes and blood clotting but I doubt it's my issue even though I was not tested. maybe I should get tested just in case but it's so expensive. 

DH is back on no beer + tonnes of supps, I reduced my calorie intake but actually since last week I lost a bit of weight anyway and my tummy does not look pregnant anymore. I think baby will take what it needs from me anyway but It will help me cope if I can get my body back. at least something positive to focus my mind on. and it's really easy for me not to eat, I lost appetite completely. 

Dh may need to go away and I am trying to get my mum to come over to be with me when it happens. from what I heard and read it can get pretty tough physically I really do not want to be on my own when this happens. 

I also read in missed mc cos it may take ages, ladies prefer to take medication to speed up to process. it sounds a bit better than going for an op but on the other hand if you are forcing the body to get rid of it before it's ready it may not do a proper job and you end up going for op anyway. can't decide, hopefully will get some info tomorrow at the hospital. 

and obviously as it always happens my friend (who I had my stim IVF with and she got pregnant with twins while I had the bleeding) just gave birth to a girl and a boy. totally happy for her but the timing for the news could not be worse.


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## Briss

my update, at the EPU they did a scan and still no HB and the embryo is very small at least a week behind. She looked at my bloods but even through she acknowledged that HcG should be higher and progesterone dropped &#8211; not good signs, they do not go by HcG. the theory behind is that placenta cells take up some of HcG so they do not think this is accurate. My German clinic clearly disagrees. Anyway she said they need to wait another week before they can officially diagnose missed mc. so I am due for another scan next week (At least it's free). she said will probably then take another 2 weeks for it to happen naturally and if it does not they will give me some medication to kick start mc or do an op. I asked around and a lot of ladies responded that they had very positive experience with D&C but a few wrote to me privately with horror stories on how this can go horribly wrong. I guess I am taking the risk any way but will probably start with natural and see how it goes. 

we decided to still have a little vacation and go to France in between my scans. I could use some rest and fresh air. been crying a lot and am actually quite scared to go through mc. 

*Jazzbird*, do you think Chinese herbs and acu are good options to help with natural mc? I wonder if I should see dr E again and ask for something to help my uterus clean up when the time comes.


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## terripeachy

Thanks for the update. At least your EPU clinic is a little more positive even if it does end up that you do have a mc. I"m glad they were able to fit you right in. Your post sounds like you are feeling a lot better too, so I'm happy to read the update. Hopefully next week your report will be even better. My thoughts and prayers are still with you. <3


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## Blythe

Briss - i will pray that next week will bring you different news. I do think a trip to France would be a nice thing to do and whilst i cannot imagine anything would take your mind off this, different surroundings can help clarify our thoughts on things and what steps to take next.

thinking of you :flower:


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## Briss

My HCG levels dropped since Monday. I do not care what the NHS thinks, to me this means it's over. waiting for Munich to tell me if I should stop progesterone now. going abroad maybe not be a great idea right now. hoping mc will wait for my return. Am definitely having a cappuccino tomorrow morning.

Mornings are the hardest time of the day for me cos I wake up feeling happy about the new day and then a moment later I realise what happened and I get this indescribable hard feeling somewhere inside, I cant even cry because it's such a deep feeling of sadness, it's almost beyond tears. It takes me at least an hour to force myself back into feeling more normal so I can function. It's actually very upsetting to be seating around waiting for mc. maybe women who do not do early scans are better off. They are blissfully unaware they have already lost the pregnancy and they only get through the heartache of it all once the actual bleeding starts. It took me only a few minutes to pack away all pregnancy related stuff and threw away pregnancy/baby related magazines so at home it all looks like it never happened, only it did. 

Everyone keeps telling me how this is a good sign I had this pregnancy and that its just a matter of time now before I get a viable pregnancy on the way. The thing is, I never doubted my body is able to get pregnant, I know all the stats and my TTC history do not look promising but I still had this firm feeling that I was OK. maybe not suited for stim IVF but still fertile. I just need to get hold of good quality sperm and I will be pregnant in no time. if we cant get a viable embryo after IMSI I am really struggling to see what else can help. I am asking DH to do sperm DNA fragmentation test. I know it's not going to be good but I need to know how bad it is before I go through another thing like that.


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## alison29

That sounds like a smart plan of action. 
I would like to pass on what my work friend said about her mmc. She chose to take the pills and she said it was the worst pain ever like giving birth but you don't get anything at the end. Hemoragging (sp?) type bleeding too. The pills did not work so she still had to get a d nc after all that. Her baby stopped growing around 6 weeks and still had not happened naturally at 10 weeks.
She told me she wished the doctor would have told her how bad the suppositories were. That's it she had to put them up there every few hours while flooding and cramping she said it was awful. So try to avoid those suppositories if you don't get there naturally.


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## Briss

*alison*, thank you. that sounds awful! but good to know.

Munich told me to stop progesterone as based on my HCG there is no chance. They said I do not need another scan to confirm it, as far as they are concerned this is missed mc and I need to chose now whether I do it naturally or via op. I did hear that naturally it's similar to giving birth. not quite the same of course but you still need to give birth to the embryo effectively. The sac is around 1.5 cm now and it's quite hard as it needs to protect the embryo so this will be quite something&#8230;


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## Jazzbird

Briss - really sad to hear your horrible news. I have no advice on whether to wait or go for the procedure except it will be over faster and you could be waiting some time.

You're such a strong lady Briss, I cannot believe how much heartache you have withstood and how you are immediately looking at next steps. Would your OH consider donor sperm after watching you go through all of this? 

I know it offers no comfort but I think of you every day. Sending you lots of love Briss. 

Xxx


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## Briss

*Jazzbird*, thank you! I wanted to ask you actually what are your thoughts on using TCM to bring on mc? I am hearing that naturally it may take a while so I wonder if I should ask Dr E to help with this using acu or herbs.


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## nobump

Briss hope you enjoy france.

My SIL had 2 miss carriages before stopping TTC she said she couldn't go through the pain and heartache again. Never asked her to much about it at the time. Had only been with now husband abiut a year and she is a closed person. I am sure you will make the correct choice for you.

Thinking of you xxxxx


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## Jazzbird

Hi Briss - yes I think herbs and/or acupuncture can bring on miscarriage. Definitely discuss with Dr E - I'm sure he will have a considered opinion and should offer you some sound advice.

Thinking of you & everyone else on this thread. LTTC is the pits.
X


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## threebirds

Briss, Im so sorry. I just popped into this thread to see how everyone is doing. I have had 3mmc and have gone all routes, op, pills & waiting. My experience with the pills wasnt great as they only partially worked i ended up waiting for it to complete. The op was the right decision first time as I was 13 wks and lost my amniotic fluid. Waiting was right the last time as it just felt right & I wanted to be absolutely sure it was over. I think looking at TCM to help might be the right way. Everyone has different experiences and you generally bleed for a couple of wks afterwards. Its the mental pain of the loss thats hardest. Please dont give up hope for the future. We did get there in the end & DH had very low count & quality & I had high fsh and low amh. So sorry you are going through this x


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## Briss

Threebirds, thank you! Can I ask did you get to the bottom of why you had miscarriages? Did you do anything different in your last ivf? Any immune treatment?


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## Vonn

Briss--thinking of you this week. I hope a few days away have offered a change of perspective and scenery for you and your DH. :flower::flower:


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## Blythe

Briss - i saw your chart - I am thinking of you


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## Wish4another1

Briss - massive :hugs2: been reading along and praying you would have a different outcome. I am still HOH (holding out hope) you will have your baby soon.
much love to you! :hugs::hugs:


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## nobump

Sending you some hugs hope you manage to get away for a few days xx


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## Briss

ladies, thank you. we got back from France last night. The bleeding started on tuesday. it was actually OK at the beginning like heavy AF with more cramps than usual so I could not sleep. but yestetdat it's a whole different story. I started having uterine contractions, real painful but it got worse cos they were coming up every few minutes and an hour before boarding they were already every few seconds. I was only able to take a deep breathe in between. The flight was just horrific but nothing was coming out but liquid blood. By the time we got home the contractions eased and then stopped very quickly. I was disappointed as I thought my body was trying to clear itself out but could not. Anyway I went to the loo just before going to bed and could just feel something big coming out, I looked inside and it was a very long and large piece followed by a smaller piece. I was not sure what it was, seemed too large for a sac and it did not look like a sac but like gigantic clot. Turns out it was my embryo after all. No embryo was seen on the scan today. But placenta is still inside. They think my body is managing well so it should pass the placenta by itself. Next scan in 2 weeks. No antibiotics


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## gingmg

Briss- I'm thinking of you.


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## Vonn

Briss--Thanks for coming on to give an update. This is just heart-breaking, but at the same time it's encouraging that your body is clearing on its own. I hope you pass the placenta soon so that the process doesn't drag out and require meds and/or procedures. I continue to think of you and wish you comfort.
:hugs::flower::hugs::flower::hugs::flower::hugs::flower::hugs::flower::hugs::flower::hugs::flower:​


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## Juniperjules

Hi girls, 
I popped in here a few months ago but haven't been around again for a while until today.. Briss.. There are just no words.. I'm truly sorry for ur loss.. I have never experienced it myself but my mum had 4 m/c, and even 2 weeks ago while talking to me about TTC she began to cry over her losses more than 30 years ago. It's a pain no woman should have to bear. I think u have an amazing attitude & I hope that the future holds happiness ahead like it did for my mum.. She eventually had my little sister- a happy ending..

I wanted to just quickly mention something- and see wot u girls know about this???.. I saw my FS last week & had bloods done.. Turns out I'm hypothyroid! She wants my TSH below 2.5, and it's currently 2.89 which is too high for pregnancy!! 

I had no idea.. I've been googling & reading & now I'm educated to the fact that being hypothyroid can cause M/C, birth defects, infertility!!! I read story after story of women having m/c due to thyroid issues, and doctors who had no idea & we're giving incorrect advice.. 
I'm shocked & kinda stunned.. And annoyed that my TSH is 2.89 when 18mths ago it was 1.3.. 

Anyway, the FS has started me on 50mcg of thyroxine.. I didn't even have to go see her, she got my results & then posted me a script..quite impressed by that I must say..


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## Briss

Juniperjules, thank you. have you tested T3/T4 ad all other thyroid tests? I am surprised you are put on the hormone so soon. TSH goes up and down a lot. 2.8 is totally fine actually you just need to monitor that it does not go up. mine went up to 3.7 and then went down to 2. my endocrinologist did not think i needed the hormone even though my mum has under active thyroid. he said i am at risk but until my TSH (and other tests) show a constant increase i should not go on hormonal replacement. I was monitoring my tsh when I got my BFP in case i am not producing enough for both of us and it was going up little by little but still around 2.5-3.5 but no one raised any concerns.


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## Juniperjules

Well that's the thing Briss, I found so much information from women saying they were told it didn't matter, it fluctuates etc etc.. And then they miscarried. A couple miscarried up to 3 or 4 times before somehow being alerted to the thyroid levels. 

Funny thing is I HAVE put on weight the last 4-5 mths & it has baffled me a bit as to why? I've also been feeling pretty lacking in energy.. I'd never have thought of my thyroid.. I've had it checked a few time in recent years with no problem found. But maybe something's changed. My aunt & cousin are both hypothyroid so it is in the family.

The only reason I'm going ahead & taking the thyroxine is because my FS is an EXTREMELY well respected FS- and I have a lot of faith in her & her knowledge & expertise in all things baby-making related. they call her 'the baby whisperer' here in Australia- bcos if anyone can get u pregnant it's her. She does & tries things that others don't.. And she gets results. She got a woman pregnant last year who no longer had ovaries- only frozen ovarian tissue that had been removed prior to cancer treatment. She somehow put the tissue back in the woman's body & managed to get eggs somehow- a miracle if u ask me.. But anyway wot I'm getting at is that she really truly is pretty amazing in wot she does- so if she's telling me that 2.89 is too high for pregnancy then I'm happy to believe her. Especially now that I've read so many women telling their own stories & trying to get other women to beware about it. 

Granted my FS DID say that if ur not trying to get pregnant then 2.89 isn't such an issue. 

She also sent me a pathology slip for T3, T4 & antibodies to have done. So I'll do those & see wot happens next


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## Juniperjules

For some reason I can't edit my last post to add this.. But this is the site where I read some really interesting & informative stuff.. Especially in the section where other people are responding & telling their own stories

https://hypothyroidmom.com/about-dana-trentini/


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## Briss

I totally believe your doctor knows her stuff etc. and you should follow her advice if you trust her. after all she examined you so she must have found evidence of under active thyroid, I do not think it was just your TSH levels alone. and you are right if your body is not producing enough thyroid hormone for both you and your baby in the first 3 months it may lead to a mc. but also getting on hormone replacement is for life and your thyroid will get lazier and will start producing less and less once you get on the hormone. I just wouldn't want to mess with my hormones. also I find it hard to understand how you can be put straight on hormone without knowing your actual T3/T4 levels? (my doc said that though my TSh goes a bit up sometimes I still have very solid T3/T4 levels; it's high TSH in combination with very low T3/T4 levels which is an issue) TSH on its own does not mean a lot. you really need to see the entire thyroid profile and repeat your tests in a few weeks/months to understand what's happening. I know in the UK they are very conservative you won't put you on hormone replacement unless you are above 5 which is probably too high. I had my levels fluctuate between 3.8 and 2 within a month. thyroid is very sensitive to what's going on in your life like stress levels can seriously affect your TSH levels but they will then go back down.

antibodies are important but if you have them it's a different issue more related to your immune system. 

thanks for bringing it up though, I may actually go back to seek a second opinion. thanks for the link i will check it out. 

While thyroid function is very important in pregnancy, (have read 3 books on this since my mc) vast majority of early mc are due to sporadic chromosomal errors mainly due to egg quality due to age. quite depressing but it's back to egg quality. apparently sperm quality is not as bigger issue as the egg.


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## Juniperjules

Thanks for all that info Briss, it's real food for thought. It's why these forums are fantastic- being able to share info & get opinions that can help u work through decisions.. I'm getting the additional tests done on Tuesday, so will be useful to see wot those results are. i don't want to be taking thyroxine long term either, so it's definitely something I'm going to be following up on... That's the problem with all of this TTC- getting so much info & trying to decided what is an isn't right for you.. It's exhausting! 

Thanks again! Ur a wealth of information!


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## Briss

*Juniperjules*, I read the info you posted. very interesting. My mum actually got under active thyroid after either my brother or one of her mc. although I do not quite agree that "TSH is the gold standard for measuring thyroid function", TSH is just the first thing you measure to check if there might be a problem and if it's elevated then you need all other thyroid tests and preferably a scan. My mum was extremely poorly and no one could understand the reason and by the time someone suggested to check thyroid her TSH was 40 and T4 was 0. This experience has affected our entire family so i have always been aware of thyroid and had regular scans and bloods because I tend to feel tired and my body temp is lower. the risk of developing under active thyroid is there but it's just a risk I may never get it (my mum has under active thyroid but her mother actually had the opposite Hyperactive thyroid) and I do not want to push my body into that whole hormone replacement situation just out of fear. but thyroid is always at the back of my mind because my TSH levels are borderline. 

What I'd really want to know is what levels you need to have in order to mc. I was actually asked to do bloods including thyroid profile when I registered my pregnancy so I need to ask for results (although by the time I did the tests the embryo's development stopped or slowed so not sure if the results are going to be helpful)

I asked a lot of doctors if there is anything i could do to help my thyroid since we know i'm at risk but the answer is always the same, nothing you can do you either going to develop under active thyroid or not and if you do you are going to have to take the hormone. that's it! the only thing I know for sure is that your thyroid will be very grateful if you manage your stress levels. 

also, be very careful about iodine and any supplements that contain iodine because it can either be your thyroid's friend or enemy and it's really hard to tell which one. I was told to stay well clear of iodine rich products except for prenatal vitamins. I also know this because my mum's thyroid action was blocked by iodine supplements because she was wrongly advised by the doctors who thought iodine was good for thyroid. It is generally thought that iodine is good for thyroid but it can be quite the opposite. My mum also met a woman who ruined her thyroid because she ate seaweed every day for over 10 years. i mean obviously seaweed is a great product but it turns out there can be too much of a good thing because eating too much iodine can be harmful. That was another lesson for me, never eat/drink too much of one thing however healthy/beneficial it is unless you have a recognised deficiency.


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## Vonn

Juniper--I'm sorry to read you're having trouble with your thyroid. I knew nothing about it for most of my life and it has been a very serious issue for me the past several years. No doubt interfering with my TTC. You have found a good resource in hypothyroidmom, she's a fantastic advocate. (And when she says that TSH is the gold standard, she means that most drs see it that way...she doesn't.) Another good one is Mary Shomon. The information I learned from them was a revelation.

You definitely need to have the free T4, free T3, both antibodies, and if you can get it, a reverse T3 done, in addition to the TSH. It doesn't shock me that a dr would only do a TSH and immediately put you on T4 meds. They put way too much weight on that one test. Some more progressive drs say that 2.5 is actually too high and that people who are more optimal tend to not have a TSH that is more around 1.5.

As you've already started to learn, there's a lot of controversy with what tests to run. I had an endocrinologist tell me flat out that she doesn't test T3 because "almost no one has trouble with T3." She's a specialist! I never went back to her. 

There's also controversy about what meds are given. Many drs will only prescribe T4 meds. Some patients do better on meds that have both T4 and T3 in them. Watch closely how your med works and advocate for yourself.

As for what can help besides medicine, there's of course controversy about that, too. Iodine can indeed be tricky, so be careful unless there's a deficiency. Some people (me included) have trouble converting T4 to T3. Selenium can help with that. Eat brazil nuts! The adaptogenic herb ashgawanda can help too, as can a few other herbs. These are definitely more mild than any medication. Also, since a lot of T4 to T3 conversion takes place in the liver, it's important to have a liver that is running well and not sluggish. Good gut health is also important for good thyroid health. As is managing stress (because of the adrenal-thyroid connection). These may seem tangential and not that related, but I assure you they impact one another in MAJOR ways. It is a tangled web to unweave, let me tell you. But I don't want to project my situation onto anyone else. Good luck to you!


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## Vonn

Briss--Glad to see you popping back in. Of course you are doing it to help someone else, you're such a sweetie! How are you doing? Update if you feel like it. Otherwise, know I am following your chart.

Nobump, alison, blythe--Any updates from you ladies? I hope each of you is well!

AFM--I start clomid tomorrow & will do an IUI this cycle. Happy to get going with it all. Still not quite sorted with the thyroid meds, but don't want to put things off another cycle. I also fell off the anti-candida bandwagon. I cannot keep that diet up. It's the no sugar that gets me, the cravings just don't go away. 

I got my AMH result from last month (which they had never given me, that drives me bonkers) and it was .3 (US). I realize this is not good. A couple months earlier it was .165, which is really horrendous. That's a pretty significant increase, about which I am pretty pleased! I know AMH is not supposed to fluctuate much like FSH does, so I'm taking it as a good sign. Does anyone have any insight about this?


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## Briss

*Vonn*, thank you very much for your input on the thyroid discussion I was hoping you'd join cos you know so much more about it. 

I am sorry AF got you and so early as well. Did you do anything last cycle to extend your LP? 

I will be keeping my fingers crossed for your IUI/clomid cycle! 

I was never able to do no sugar diet for long, I personally do not think it's sustainable. the only thing that helped with sugar cravings were nuts actually and heavy protein intake but it did not do much for my waistline. Are there any types of sugar that are allowed? like fruit maybe?

re AMH, every doctor told me that AMH does not fluctuate and yet it does and sometimes by a lot. When I tried confronting doctors about it they just say it happens but cannot give any explanation. I personally do not trust AMH alone because mine was good but nevertheless I have lower egg reserved which was proved by stimulating my ovaries. so it's always AMH + FSH + AFC+ age together that can give a true picture of your reserve.

*Nobump*, how are you? has your bleeding got better? 

*afm*, had a rather depressing Easter break, I could not make myself do anything at all, was just sitting on my sofa the entire weekend watching Netflix, one thing after another. TV is like some kind of tranquilizer for me, I need a distraction I cant be left alone with my mind it will drive me crazy with dark thoughts. Could not do my diet either but will try to do two fasting days today and tomorrow. I have also ordered a new juicer, a really good one that can press wheatgrass and other leafy greens. Am back at work this morning and somehow I feel so much better and have energy to and motivation to diet and plan my TTC. I am beginning to feel grateful I have a job because I think I'd probably never leave the house if I did not have to go to work. On top of that my herpes is back &#8211; what a curse!


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## alison29

Hi ladies,
Sugar diet is so super hard! I would like to just give up chocolate, cookies, cakes, etc agg that's not going well. Sorry about the outbreak Briss..I am going to read up on wheat grass was reading an infertility book and the woman talked about it being helpful. I don't have much to add to thyroid discussion, but i did have an acupunturist recommend kelp suplements to me everyday (i took them through a bottles worth).
Afm, I think I am in anovulatory cycle. I was traveling at my mom's around the pre o time (stressful). I surged then dried up then had ewcm 4 days later. I think my body was trying ovulate but then failed. No post o symptoms at all. Oh well on to next month. Dh was having a horrid time doing the deed so unlikely would have caught any egg anyway. Stress is a sex life killer for sure ;(


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## AugustBride6

Hey ladies! I just found this thread, care if I join the party :winkwink:


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## alison29

Hi August! Please join the thread. Welcome


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## nobump

Hi.
Sorry been quiet. No new news. Still bleeding. Doc trying to regulate it currently on break from northisterone to try and have a normal bleed. On mefenamic and transenamic acid to help reduce bleed during period. Hoping bleeding will have stopped before we go on our weekend break for my 40th. 

My acu guy has suggested I stop my sessions as there is no improvement and I am not wanting to take herbs as I am not sure what has caused my to bleed almost every day since mid February &#55357;&#56866; .

Have been reading everyone's updates thinking of you all.

Xx


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## Blythe

nobump - hi :flower:

im so sorry to read that you are still bleeding after all this time. It is the first time i have read of a acu practioner saying they would stop treatments although i am impressed that he has done that - maybe he does not have the experience or knowledge that another practitioner may have. I wonder if any other form of natural medicine might help. 

i remember taking dong quai many years ago - i cannot remember why i was taking it but it caused me to bleed irregularly and very heavily.

it is a difficult journey thats for sure. I really hope that the bleeding does let up in time for your 40th. Im getting ready for my 43rd so 40 is young to me.


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## alison29

Blythe and no bump dong quai caused me heavy bleed too. No bump I am so sorry u still going thru this still.


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## Blythe

Hi Ladies

I have been reading up on blood group diets....for weight loss rather than fertility and my blood group, which is O + is known for issues with thyroid. i was checking the reviews on amazon for blood group diet books and for some it has changed their lives....although i am sure i could find same reviews for most diets. Still possibly something to think about. i also found out O+ types tend to have issues re infertility - no shit!

here is list of recommended foods and foods to avoid which includes things i eat alot of...avocados being one of them:

*Vegetables*
Vegetables are an important part of any food plan. But since Type Os tend to have low levels of thyroid hormone, vegetables that have a negative effect on thyroid hormone function such as cabbage, Brussels sprouts and cauliflower should be avoided. Eat nutrient-packed vegetables that build the immune system such as broccoli, kale, Romaine lettuce, onions, parsnips, sweet potatoes, pumpkin, Spinach and Swiss chard.

*Fruits*
The blood type diet recommends to Type O individuals fruits with an alkalizing effect that helps balance your body's pH level, making it less acidic. Most fruits work well with Type O metabolism, but the most beneficial fruits for Type Os, according to Dr. D'Adamo, include bananas, blueberries, black cherries and black cherry juice, figs, guavas, mangoes, pineapple juice, plums, prunes and prune juice. D'Adamo also recommends avoiding apple juice, avocados, blackberries, cantaloupe, coconut, honeydew, oranges and orange juice, strawberries, and tangerines.

*Salt Water Fish and Kelp*
Type O's tend to have low levels of thyroid hormone and low levels of iodine, which can affect your body's hormone regulation. The result is weight gain, fluid retention and fatigue. Dr. D'Adamo suggests a diet rich in saltwater fish, such as cod, tuna, salmon, tilapia, halibut and red snapper, and kelp, a form of seaweed, to help regulate the thyroid gland.

*Lean Meats*
Type Os are able to easily digest and metabolize lean meats because of the acidity in their muscle tissue, according to Dr. D'Adamo. But this same acidity level tends to make Os more susceptible to ulcers than other blood types. Protein is very important for maintaining the health of Type Os. Choose skinless chicken breasts and lean cuts of red meat such as top round, top sirloin or flank steak. In addition to lean meats, protein-rich foods such as egg whites and nuts are recommended.


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## alison29

thanks blythe i should check out what the b+ one says. I never ever would have thought avocado could be "bad" no matter what. I recently bought amazing greens super food. Maybe i will try out the diet. IT couldn't hurt :0 I read on Dr wheat grass's website that when you take that wheatgrass supp he suggests holding it in your mouth for 2-3 minutes to let the stuff absorb better before it gets destroyed by stomach acid. I want to just stick to a diet. I would feel so proud and better.


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## alison29

These are ones that says to avoid that a do a lot of: peanuts, seltzer water, nuts and seeds. It says lots of dairy is ok. I love dairy but it hates me the lactose doesn't digest well. I can avoid chicken that is for sure and says beef is good we are getting a portion of a cow soon so happy that is on list.

Peanut butter is just easy and low sugar that is why i eat it but i have to admit it doesn't make me feel tops. Whereas green tea does (highly recommended and peppermint tea).


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## Vonn

nobump--I am so sorry to hear that you are still having bleeding problems. That sounds terrible! Make sure you are advocating for yourself, they need to be aggressively trying to get to the bottom of why this is happening. GL :flower:

Blythe--I am O+, too, and of course have thyroid and infertility problems. The diet sounds intriguing. I'll be curious to hear from you if it works. This all gets so confusing because a bunch of these foods conflict with what is good to eat on an anti-candida diet!

Alison--I have no idea how one would hold wheat grass in one's mouth for any amount of time. I cannot handle that stuff at all. The only way I can get it down is if it's in a smoothie and I can't taste it.

Briss--How is the coughing and the pulled muscle? I hope that has healed up. Spring has finally arrived here, I hope it has in London, too, and the warm sun has helped your spirits.

AFM--Just had my CD10 scan. Only one measurable follicle 20 x 17. Lining was thinner than they want, I think she said 9-something. (I had a hard time understanding the tech.) I am super bummed. In November and December I had scans to follow unmedicated cycles and I produced a good-sized follicle and had a great lining both times. So all the stupid clomid did was thin my lining. No help stimulating eggs whatsoever. I started tearing up and really had to work to keep it together. 

I keep telling myself that I didn't have super high hopes for this cycle since my damn thyroid medication is still not sorted out. I also keep telling myself that only one egg is needed, that I'm not "out" yet...we haven't even inseminated yet, so I can't give up already. I have to go back in tomorrow morning for another scan to see if the lining has thickened enough. I just have to keep my head up. Sorry for the negative post, ladies.


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## nobump

Vonn - when I went through IVF my lining had been thin then jumped to thick within a few days, think chocolate, raspberry leaf tea and the odd 'O' will help the lining.

I had bloods done this morning, and a follow-up with the doc tomorrow, I lost loads of blood overnight Thursday into Friday so went to the docs... I think I will be looking for a private referral if I don't get much joy tomorrow. This is making no sense, spotted Saturday, then Sunday walk over a mile to the football and then bleed heavy for several hours on afterwards. but been spotting since.. I just don't know what is happening! Something must have changed since my hystoscopy in 2013.


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## Blythe

*Vonn* - if she said 9mm then that is actually quite good at this stage. They may have said 'triple layer' afterwards...if they did then this is even better. Its all a gamble but you have a nice fat egg about to be released and you will have sperm right up there waiting so this could be the cycle! I really hope it is:flower:

you are right about foods conflicting - i have been eating brazil nuts and avocados for fertility but they are both very bad of O+ types. I am giving it a go though as my weight wont shift and im wondering if this will help.

*NoBump* - hoping you get some answers from these tests - you must feel wrecked having lost all this blood and over such a long period of time.


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## alison29

Vonn,
It maybe be only one egg but doesn't the clomid make for a stronger ovulation and luteal phase? Fingers crossed for you. Clomid is just terrible for moods it's a rough medication. Plus like Blythe said you will have helped the sperm get right where it needs to ber.


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## Vonn

Thanks for the support, ladies, I really appreciate it! Actually my lining was 6 something, so 9 would have been great. Oops. Well, got the go-ahead, triggered last night and have IUI on Friday. I hope we catch that egg!


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## nobump

Good luck vonn. Let the sperm meet the egg.

My blood count is ok hgb was 125. But opting to go private to try and get to the bottom of this. Will try to get an appointment for week after next. Hoping my weekend away for my dreaded 40th will do us both good.

How's everyone else doing? Xxxx


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## Briss

ladies, I hope you are well. 

*nobumb*, I am very sorry you are still struggling with the bleeding. I so hope your private appointment will help you get to the bottom of this issue. At least your blood count is OK. Have a lovely weekend away!! you know what they say life begins at 40 and I hope for you a new little life will begin soon. you so deserve it. 

*Blythe*, thinking of you all the time and so hope you get good news soon. The more I read the more I realise that your situation is just very unusual, you and your DH have everything in place to make a healthy baby so I am just not sure why it has not happened yet. age is of course an issue but not so much in your case based on your stats. there must be something else. can it be that you and your DH are genetically similar? have you/DH done any karyotyping tests? although still seems unlikely cos you have done it once so you should be able to do it again. 

re blood type diet, I have seen a few people getting a lot of success with this diet not just weight loss wise but more about getting rid of allergies and feeling more energetic. I personally could not do it. My diet is simple eat good stuff and cut out the bad one. so when I read that I should not eat broccoli or cauliflower cos they are not good for my blood type I kind of resent that :)

BUT there is a super important genetic thing that I recently discovered. as you know I have been in agonising search for the reason for my MMC so I have done a lot of research and did lots of blood tests including some genetic ones. and it turns out I have certain genetic mutation:

Thrombosis Panel:
1. COAGULATION FACTOR II gene / Prothrombin gene Factor II (F2) (20210 G>A) polymorphism c.*97G>A. Result: G/G (polymorphism variation predisposing to the development of thrombosis is not detected)
2. COAGULATION FACTOR V gene / Factor V Leiden (F5) (1691 G>A) polymorphism c.1601G>A. Result: G/G (polymorphism variation predisposing to the development of thrombosis is not detected)
3. 5,[email protected] REDUCTASE gene MTHFR (677 C>T) polymorphism c.665C>T. Result: C/C (polymorphism variation predisposing to a breach of folate cycle is not detected
4. *5,[email protected] REDUCTASE gene MTHFR (1298 A>C) polymorphism c.1286A>C. Result: A/C (polymorphism variation predisposing to a breach of folate cycle in heterozygous form is detected)
5. METHIONINE SYNTHASE REDUCTASE gene (MTRR). RR (66 A>G) polymorphism c.66A>G Result: G/G (polymorphism variation predisposing to a breach of folate cycle in homozygous form is detected)
6. [email protected] S-METHYLTRANSFERASE gene (MTR) R (2756 A>G) polymorphism c.2756A>G. Result: A/G (polymorphism variation predisposing to a breach of folate cycle in heterozygous form is detected)*
7. Lupus anticoagulants: Negative

I know it all looks too complicated trust me I broke my brain trying to figure out what tests i need to do and then trying to interpret the results. This is just a tiny part of the tests I have done actually. but they are the only ones that showed an issue (although most likely not relevant to my MMC). I am sharing it here because it turns out this might be relevant to all of you. I always wondered at ladies taking baby aspirin and all that endless discussion on Folate vs. Folic Acid. I trusted the ladies here and twitched to Folate without quite understanding why but now I know the reason. it's all in the genes! Turns out at least half of European population have these genetic mutations. I am luckily my MTHFR (677 C>T) is OK but I am in the minority, actually dominant variant in Europe is a mutation of this gene - that's where baby aspirin comes in. because the genes above are genetic blood clotting tests. 

there is some very good information from knowledgeable FF ladies in here https://www.fertilityfriends.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=334866.0 but generally except for blood clotting issue these mutations point towards me not processing B12/folic acid as well as I should and as we know the deficiency in these vitamins plays a huge part in infertility and mc. with my mutations I probably process around 50-60% so not too bad (ladies with MTHFR (677 C>T) mutation only process around 10%!) and I have been empirically supplementing with the right kind of Folate. that's why I do not think it played a role in my MMC but nevertheless, I strongly believe we should reconsider what type of vitamin B12 we are taking in our supps: it must be methylcobalamin (NOT cheaper synthetic version - cyanocobalamin) and make sure you take folate (methylfolate) and not folic acid. basically half of us do not process B12 in cyanocobalamin form and folic acid so it tends to build up in our system causing all sorts of issues. 

btw I checked Fertilaid that I have been giving to my DH and was very pleased that it had the right B12 form methylcobalamin - that's why it's more expensive but I am so pleased I switched to it because B12 is super important for sperm and Dh was taking at least 1,000 a day. 

I won't bore you with my other test results cos I have not yet figured out what they mean but most likely nothing interesting.

generally, after my extensive research on the reasons for my MMC it does seem that a sporadic chromosomal error due to egg quality due to age (or as medical profession puts it "bad luck") is the most likely cause. and there is nothing you can do about it. stim IVF where you get a few embryos to chose from is an answer but unfortunately my ovaries are against stims so going natural IVF route exposes us to this risk. sperm quality can also play a role but it's mainly the egg that's doing all the work on shifting chromosome around so while faulty sperm is a possibility, egg chromosomal error is just more likely. I feel angry I did not work it out when I was 35-36, we would have had better chances. 

I sent all my results to Munich and waiting for their verdict i.e. if I need blood thinners etc and I also begged (again!) to start IMSI as soon as I get AF. waiting for their response. I had a scan that was all clear and my urine pregnancy test was negative so I really feel we can start again.I do not want to change the clinic because these guys did get us pregnant on the first go so i want to try with them again.


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## Briss

*Vonn*, best of luck with your IUI!! I really hope it works this time, have everything crossed for you. do not lose hope over your lining and clomid you just never know when it's going to work. this might easily be your lucky egg and things will work out somehow. i really hope so. 

also i think they usually give some additional oestrogen for the lining before O. worth checking. 

I still have chest pain on my right side, I am going to GP (again!) next week to ask for a specialist cos it starting to get to me. I did a ct scan and it actually showed that my lungs are fine so it must be something else, maybe a nerve. interestingly they found i have a broken rib on my left side?? how do you break a rib and not notice :) i guess I am in such emotional pain from infertility/MMC that a thing like a broken rib can easily come unnoticed...

re thyroid. there is so much conflicting info I am getting tired of this. I want to see an endocrinologist again to discuss if TSH could have played a role in my MMC (although i think it's unlikely). My TSH levels during pregnancy were fluctuating between 2.4-3.4 or something like that and T4 was around 14 when MMC was confirmed but before it happened. I think these levels although not ideal but OK.

having said that our knowledgeable FF ladies strongly believe TSH levels outside the range of 0.4-2 together with low normal FT4 are associated with significantly lower chances of live birth e.g., with IVF:

"An over or under active thyroid can significantly reduce your chances of conception even if it is still within the &#8216;normal&#8217; range for the NHS. For example, the NHS will currently not treat a TSH level of 4 mIU/mL (= 4 IU/L) as requiring any medication for hypothyroid (because of its cost/benefit analysis). However, studies have shown that anything over 2 mIU/ml (=2 IU/L), especially where anti-thyroid antibodies are present is associated with a lower chance of a live birth. 

e.g. https://www.ajog.org/article/S0002-9378(06)00365-6/abstract
https://www.gghjournal.com/volume26/1/pdf/ab14.pdf

https://www.thyroid.org/professionals/publications/clinthy/clinthy_v237.pdf

So in my opinion, infertility patients should ask their GP for a basic thyroid screen and if, for example the TSH comes back at over 2 mIU/ml (2 IU/L) or high levels of antithyroid antibodies are present, seek advice from an endocrinologist who has experience with infertility or an immune fertility doctor as you may need to be prescribed thyroxine to reduce your TSH to below 2 mIU/ml. In the study above, where IVF patients had a TSH level greater than 2.5 mIU/ml and did not have FT4 levels in the high normal range, they were prescribed 50mcg per day of levothryoxine from the first day of IVF stimulation which lead to greatly improved pregnancy and live birth rates (reduced miscarriage rates) compared to similar ladies who where untreated. 

DURING PREGNANCY the American Thyroid Association recommends TSH is maintained to:

First Trimester, TSH 0.1 &#8211; 2.5 mIU/L

Second Trimester, TSH 0.2 &#8211; 3.0 mIU/L

Third Trimester, TSH 0.3 &#8211; 3.0 mIU/L"

there more info in here: https://www.fertilityfriends.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=242395.20

Having said that i just read a book avoiding miscarriage by susan rousselot where she says that hypothyroidism is a condition that is no longer linked to miscarriage!! apparently recent studies have found no evidence that women with thyroid decease experience recurrent pregnancy loss more often than women with normal thyroids. however, antithyroid antibodies are still associated with higher miscarriage risk. not sure yet what to make of this. it goes against everything I knew about thyroid and pregnancy. although I think what she probably means is that ladies who have normal thyroid and ladies with hypothyroid but on medication have the same pregnancy outcome which makes sense cos there is no difference as long as you take your hormone. however what about borderline ladies who are not on any medication. are they at a greater risk as FF ladies claim? definitely worth another visit to endocrinologist


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## Blythe

Briss - i all really interested in vitamins at the moment and think i mentioned before that i have been taking these:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B005JAT3TU?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o04_s00

i am very interested in good food source vitamins and your advice about folate vs folic acid is very sound advice. I steer well clear of the vitabiotics range although having said that the last 3 months DH has been taking the wellman ones. 

His sperm has gone from an average of 17-19m to 57m two months ago to 62m last week! He has been drinking alot recently but actually less than he was on a regular basis this time last year. I brought a smoothie maker which he loves and puts loads of hemp seeds, coconut oil, frozen fruits and gogi berries - maybe it is those that has made the difference but im happy because he is older and has been cycling lots.

The volume is still low but the other parameters are quite good. We had the sperm frozen and i received the bill after and they have had the cheek to stick on a £150 admin charge!!!!!!!!!! I could swallow £30 but this much......This was not made clear to me at any point during a number of conversation around deciding to freeze the sperm. I am furious. I am already paying £360 for the stuff to be frozen. I think it is very bad business practice and it has left a very bad taste in my mouth about this clinic now. I have spent near on 30K over the last 5 years so you would think it an insignificant sum but its the principal. Desperate women will pay for anything but to stick a fee like that on the end on an invoice really pissed me off - can you tell?!?!

Im not sure re the genetics but most things have crossed my mind. I have DDT around ovulation every month for 5 years [minus IVFs prep and IUI etc] and only one chemical. Anyhow, i am focused and committed to a new exercise plan and i have been running loads - this first time i have during the 2WW in all these years and it feels bloody good. I am doing this blood type diet (80% on 20% off) in the hope of addressing any inflammation etc and taking these in the hope they will do the same:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00HW1L752?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o05_s00

My DH has had enough and wants his life back. I can keep trying naturally but the treatments will end this year for me for certain. 

Your results are fascinating - on the basis of what you have found so far are you going to consider baby aspirin? I do take it myself - not every day but most days. Pomegranate juice is a good blood thinner and yum too.

I hope and pray that Munich give you the green light for next cycle. I know that natural IVF comes with its own risks but you know that your eggs will not have been compromised through drugs. I hope that this next cycle will give you your take home baby - you deserve so much to be happy :flower:


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## Blythe

nobump said:


> Good luck vonn. Let the sperm meet the egg.
> 
> My blood count is ok hgb was 125. But opting to go private to try and get to the bottom of this. Will try to get an appointment for week after next. Hoping my weekend away for my dreaded 40th will do us both good.
> 
> How's everyone else doing? Xxxx

*nobump* - is hgb haemoglobin? I think going private is the best way forward - you should not have to do that but you must be desperate. I hope you have a wonderful weekend away and are able to enjoy your birthday. :flower:


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## StaceyM

Hi everyone. I was bored and randomly reading the end of this thread, but now that I have read it I feel compelled to add some information. I have autoimmune thyroiditis, which means that at one point I was exposed to something that caused my body to attack itself, create antibodies, and impact my thyroid production. It was high when it first happened, and then went into a low phase, which is a common progression for thyroid disease. Yes, it runs in my family as well. A normal TSH range is between approximately 0.5 and 5 (depending on who you ask), and this varies from person to person. I take 50mcg of thyroxin per day and my TSH is usually between 4 and 5.5, which means my thyroid production is a bit low, but nothing problematic. I may eventually have to raise the dose, but a TSH of 5 or so should absolutely NOT impact your ability to get pregnant. I am concerned by what some of your doctors are telling you. 2.8 is NOT high by any stretch of the imagination, and if your doctor tells you it is, you need to find a new doctor. 2.8 is absolutely perfect! I'm sorry for being so blunt, but that is simply incorrect information. I am 39, with thyroid disease and got pregnant in one month with a TSH of 5. Realistically, unless you get a result much higher than that (6+) you should not think that it will impact your fertility or pregnancy. When you get pregnant, thyroid production does increase and your TSH number does then decrease in tandem, in the first trimester. Mine lowered to 2.6 early in my pregnancy. Thyroid disease is so ridiculously over-diagnosed, especially in the US. Your levels fluctuate by two points just by having a cold! It is perfectly normal. Unless there is a medical reason for a low/high thyroid (Hashimotos, autoimmune thyroiditis, Graves disease), and unless you have been measured multiple times over an extended time period, anything in the range of 0.5-5.0 is not a concern. It is more dangerous to take thyroid supplements when you don't need them. High thyroid is just as medically dangerous (actually more so!) than low thyroid. You should never take thyroxin if you don't need it. You should also note that eating a poor diet is generally the cause of low thyroid production if there is no medical reason for this drop (i.e. see above - medical reasons include Hashimotos, Graves, autoimmune thyroiditis, all of which show up in you blood). A poor diet suppresses your immune system and may affect your adrenal system (see adrenal fatigue as someone here mentioned), which in turn affects other systems. Sorry to get so worked up, but any doctor who tells a patient that 2.8 is low makes me upset. Remember that the information in one medical journal is not sufficient to reach a conclusion. Many sites that I have seen, especially from American sources, consistently rate a TSH of 3.5-4 as high. This is not supported by the general medical community. 4 is the higher end of normal and may warrant further investigation and monitoring, but that it all. I'm sorry to be a know-it-all, but concentrating on something that is not a problem, will undoubtedly delay your discovery of the real problem.


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## nobump

Hi all.

Hgb is hemoglobin. 

Just arrived at hotel DH has done good. If I manage to remain spotting he might get lucky! 

So much info posted today and hello staceym will read once I am home not good o the eyes with my tiny phone.

Xx


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## Vonn

nobump--have a wonderful time! I hope you only spot & are able to have a good time. :winkwink:

Briss--So good to hear from you. You certainly have been busy, doing lots of research and testing. Thanks for sharing. I'll have to check on my B12. There definitely is a controversy about folic acid vs. folate. I will be really interested to see if Munich gives you the go-ahead for next cycle. So long as everything has cleared, I can't imagine why they wouldn't.

Blythe--I'm sorry to hear that DH is not interested in pursuing treatments. You are both doing so many good things, I hope so much that you get your bfp. Please don't give up hope...it will happen for you!!

Stacey--Thank you sharing your perspective. There are certainly lots of opinions about thyroid diagnosis and treatment. I do have to respectfully disagree with some of your points. Mainly, I believe we are all bio-individual and there is not a one-size-fits-all answer. I do not have any autoimmune cause, which is the case for 10% of the people with thyroid problems. But I do have a thyroid problem. It is just as real as your thyroid problem, though certainly less (old school) textbook. I had a TSH of 5 and 5.2, and was very sick with classic low thyroid symptoms (hair falling out, terrible constipation, bleeding gums, fatigue, luteal phase defect, etc., etc.). Because of my short luteal phase, I 100% believe that at a TSH of 5, I was rendered infertile...unable to conceive. You were able to get and stay pregnant at this number, but I could not. If this doesn't prove that the TSH is not a good enough measure on it's own, I don't know what would.

The TSH was absolutely not telling the whole story for me. My T4 was/still is converting at too high a rate into reverse T3, and I had/have not enough of the active T3 hormone doing the necessary work in my body. You may not believe this is possible. I went to doctors who were dismissive of my symptoms because my numbers weren't "bad enough." Luckily, I found an MD who is more progressive. And as a result, I am finally getting some relief with a combo of T4 and T3 meds. Not all the way there, but on my way.

And there _are_ licensed, competent doctors and professinal organizations that argue a TSH of 5 is high. At one point the AACE and the NACB recommend(ed) a lower upper range. (The AACE has gone back and forth about it.) People on both sides of this issue can present findings to support their beliefs. More work needs to be done to understand what really is normal, and even more important than that, what is optimal. Because of my personal experience, I believe that future research will result in establishing a lower range for the TSH. I can imagine you probably feel otherwise. Time will tell. 

I certainly don't mind educated people, which we both seem to be, having different opinions. But if by referring to yourself as a know-it-all, you are implying that I (or any other ladies) don't know about which we write, I beg to differ. Two years ago, I began this journey with a dismissive doctor who would have agreed with everything you wrote. If I would have stayed with her and "just watched" my thyroid, I would still have a luteal phase of 8 days, making implantation impossible. Luckily, I trusted my gut and looked elsewhere for an MD. Thank goodness I was persistent because I "discovered" the real "problem" actually is my thyroid. We don't all get to follow the straightforward path to thyroid diagnosis and treatment. I so wish it had been that way for me. I would have spent much less time thinking I was a crazy, aging, hypochondriac, and worrying about how I would ever get well.


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## Briss

*Blythe*, I was checking your Garden of Life, Vitamin Code, Raw Prenatal, they look good I take it they are all natural, not synthetic forms? although they do not specify the form of B12 but it should be the correct one, although I still take a much higher dose 1,000 of B12 and 1,000 of Folate daily additionally. but this may change after I had a chance to discuss this with a specialist. 

However it does have Red Algae, I am not sure about anything that has iodine although most prenatal have some. 

MTHFR ladies recommend Thorne brand. but their prenatal has vitamin A in it which I am slightly uncomfortable with. 

I think to be on the safe side it's probably better to have several brands and mix them up

I am so impressed with your DH's improvement in SA!! who knows but it may as well be the cycling (although we are recommended to stay well clear of it). it could be those smoothies but my DH loves goji berries and can eat the entire 1 kg pack in one go! did not ever do anything to his SA though. when I got pregnant his SA was 1 million :( 

I am appalled about £150 admin charge! They should have made it clear! is there any way you can refuse to pay it? i know sometimes they can waive admin charges and because they did not mention it before they should consider waiving it if they want to retain your custom. 

I made a conscious decision not to sum up everything we spent in the last 4-5 years TTC. that number would just cause me to be depressed. but when I can I do try to save cost. I did my immune/blood clotting tests abroad for a fraction of what it would cost here. the entire thing cost me something like 250 pounds (flights/accommodation were free though)

I am inspired by your new exercise plan!! I may finally dust off my J Fonda DVD today :) a few books I read on MTHFR says that sweating off toxins via sauna or exercise is great actually. 

re baby aspirin, I am in two minds about blood thinners, when I was pregnant I had regular bloods and the nurse kept asking me if I was on some kind of strong blood thinners cos my bleeding just would not stop and I had to stay there for 10-15 min putting the pressure on the vein to stop the bleeding. and I was not taking anything except for prenatas, folate and progesterone. It does look like my blood maybe quite thin as it is. I am just not sure if making it thinner will make it any better.

also, I that major intra abdominal bleeding I had after EC in September and I was told that maybe I am not clotting as well as I should. and that happened before I was supposed to start Clexane. 

I sent all my test results to Munich and will wait for them to tell me if I should be taking any blood thinning medication.

*StaceyM*, thank you for posing your opinion. I was actually very happy to read itbecause deep down I really do not want to start hormone replacement therapy but there is a tiny part of me that keeps wondering if I may be deluding myself and delaying the inevitable. I will be seeking a second opinion but I am pretty sure any doc in the UK will say the same that my TSh is within the norm and my T3/T4 are mid range so i do not need to take the hormone. which is what i want to hear but is this really true? and if so why most IVF clinics will not let you cycle with them if your TSH above 2.5 unless you are on hormone replacement? they are concerned with their success rates and they probably know imperially that higher normal TSH + lower normal T4 means no pregnancy/ miscarriage etc?? 

The fact that your TSH was 2.6 in pregnancy is really good actually, the lower the better, right? it just means that your body was comfortably producing sufficient hormone for the two of you in the first 3 months. It would be comforting to see somebody who has higher normal readings and a healthy pregnancy. I would feel more confident that my MMC was not due to thyroid. 

I agree that TSH levels factual a lot. I can see this in my tests. 

*Vonn*, I think you are right I read somewhere a while back that they are in the process of changing the TSH upper range to 3 in the US (not sure when this notion gets to the UK though).


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## StaceyM

Hey Vonn- Sorry to hear about your troubles. I just wanted to clarify that most of the things that you have discussed, I did not comment on in my first post. I think that your issues seem more complex - T3/T4 issues are poorly understood by the medical community, and I did not mention them once because I would not claim to know more than I do. I know it's easy to get defensive if you have had continuing difficulties, and it is your choice to listen/not listen as you wish, but be sure that you are critiquing me for the things that I am actually saying. I was mainly trying to help the ladies discussing a TSH of 2.8 and that was the focus of my discussion. I also DID in fact indicate that 5 was high, that my doctor considered my 5 high, and that my dosage would likely go up soon. 5 is considered high by most doctors, but generally only treated depending on a combination of symptoms, blood work for antibodies, and an ultrasound scan of the thyroid. I just wanted to clarify that if you are a 5.2 on a regular basis, and have weird T3/T4 numbers, my post was not directed at you. That does seem troubling. What I am saying is that a TSH of 5 on it's own is NOT LIKELY to be the reason for infertility. It may be a contributing factor, if there are other issues, but on its own it is somewhat unlikely. NOTE: I am not saying impossible, just unlikely. Please also know that correlation and causation are different things. You are saying that you have these symptoms (hair, gums) and that you have a high TSH. That does not mean that a high TSH caused these problems, but only that both of these things are true. There could be a primary concern causing both the high TSH and other symptoms. Have you considered that? ...because a TSH of 5 doesn't usually cause all of that. You don't have to consider my opinion, but I do, in fact, know what I am talking about. I've been on this particular boat for a very, very long time, and yes I dealt with dismissive doctors, and yes I had to advocate for myself, and yes I am well educated/well read. It is your choice.

Briss- I just wanted to clarify that I did conceive at 4.5-5.5 without a single issue, and am only 2.6 now that I am pregnant. As far as TSH is concerned a lower number is NOT better. When I was first sick I was very high (hyperthyroid) because my body overreacted to a perceived attack. My TSH was very, very low, at one point measuring >0.01 which means my thyroid levels were so high that my body was trying not to produce any. I had constant panic attacks (3 per day usually), I couldn't concentrate on anything; I couldn't read, watch tv, hold a conversation - I actually sat in a dark room and stared at the wall for 3 months. My heart pounded and I once didn't sleep for 5 days straight. I started having auditory hallucinations. I was having a thyroid storm which was misdiagnosed as anxiety attacks. I could have died. The reason why responsible doctors are careful about putting you on thyroxin when you don't need it is because high thyroid is very, very serious. High levels are as dangerous to your baby as low ones are in terms of both health and miscarriage. I sometimes wonder about fertility clinics. I feel like some private medicine is big business, and if they put you on thyroxin in order to boost their success rates, wouldn't that be them caring more about their reputation and bottom line than their patients' health? I'm not even sure how a TSH of 0.5 is better than one of 3ish. I certainly don't feel better when my number is that low. And if you are 0.5-1 and then get pregnant and your levels raise, what happens? It seems like the only reason to do that would be to hyper-stimulate your body unnaturally and then take you off when you conceive to prevent miscarriage. Yuch is what I say to that. Thanks - I think my numbers are great too, and my ObGyn and endocrinologist agree, but based on the American Thyroid Associations numbers listed below I should be below 2.5. That's the problem with internet stats. Only the Americans have begin to think about revising the high end number to 3, and note that they have been trying to do this for at least 10 years, because I asked my endocrinologist about it 10 years ago and she laughed. The truth is that Americans have a poor diet and a huge chemical load, one of the major suggested reasons for unexplained low thyroid function. It's kind of similar to the way that Americans started to over-prescribe antibiotics, and then they ended up with a bunch of healthy people who had C-Difficle. As for TSH, 3 is not the new 5, and my suggestion is not to take meds if you don't need to. 5 is on the very upper end it's true, but if 5 were high enough to prevent conception, then certainly at my age (39) there would have been a problem, and there just wasn't... and I am really, really not the exception. It's standard protocol here. 

Anyway, I hope you all find out what is causing the problems. I fully expected to have issues and then didn't. Sometimes it is just so random. :hugs:


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## Nikki1979

Hi, I dont post here often but thought I would share my views on thyroid issues. I dont know what is right or wrong but going by what my doctors have told me. 

When I conceived my son 9 years, I was living in Canada at that time. At my first checkup, my GP had run a lot of tests and tsh was one of them since I have a strong family history of hypothyroidism. My tsh at that time was 1.5 but the GP didn't say anything so I figured all was okay. 

2 years ago I started trying for a second child. Haven't been lucky so far but after my second miscarriage, my GP sent me to an endocrinologist as my tsh was 3.3 . I live in Australia now and after looking back at all my blood test results, I realized there was a note that in pregnancy the optimal tsh is below 2.5 My endocrinologist has said the same thing and she said that a tsh of 5 is normal if you are not pregnant or trying to conceive but if you are then below 2.5 is what you should aim for as you need t4 for both the baby and yourself. 

Its not just Americans but here in Australia, they want it below 2.5 and even the thyroid Canada website states the same thing. I do know that different people react differently to hormones so do what you think is best for you. My FS wont even treat me unless my TSH is between 1-2 so I will just try and keep it at that.


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## Briss

Ladies, thank you, really interesting discussion on thyroid issues. Unfortunately it seems like there are two conflicting views i.e. upper threshold for TSH for fertility and tbh I am still very confused. 

*StaceyM*, it's really encouraging that you conceived at 4.5-5.5 (btw do you recall what was your T4 level at the time i.e. normal, upper normal, lower normal?) but interesting that your TSH levels went down as you progressed through your pregnancy. I'd think they would go up because you are requiring more and more hormone as the embryo growth and needs more. having said that my TSh fluctuated: pregnancy started with 2.84, which went down to 2.46 during the first week after BFP, but then went up to 3.47 in the next two weeks which is when the embryo stopped growing. when my MMC was confirmed but before it actually started my TSH was back to normal 2.33 but T4 was in normal low range 14. Does it look like my thyroid was playing a part in my MMC? 

I know what you mean that lower number is NOT better (both hyper and hypo run in my family), I meant lower normal. as far as I understand 1 seems to be the perfect number for TSH. Mine was never far below 2. but I hear you on " not to take meds if you don't need to", no medication is without side effects.

*Nikki*, thank you for your input. That's what I keep hearing from fertility clinics but then when go to an endocrinologist in the UK they tell you they cant do anything for you unless your TSh is over 4. I've been going in circles over this.


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## Vonn

Hi all, hope everyone is doing well! Just popping in to see what's happening for you, Briss, on your new cycle? I see you got AF. What did Munich say?


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## Briss

I got my AF and it looks OK, a bit heavier than usual but otherwise seems normal. I really want to do IVF but Munich did not respond to my emails :( I may go head with a different clinic because I just can't sit there wasting an egg this month. Will do a scan on CD7-8 and bloods and I guess that would make it clearer if we can proceed with EC this month. 

Vonn, how are you? any symptoms?


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## Vonn

Briss--that's too bad about Munich. They aren't too good with the communication. Will you try Spain or go back to Czech?

AFM--I am 9DPO today, not really any symptoms. I usually have really sore, tender bbs from ov to AF, but this time, no tenderness. I am on different progesterone and twice as much of it. I guess they were tender becus I didn't have enough progesterone? Or maybe it's a side effect of the trigger shot? Idk. I go in for a blood test on 12DPO, so I'll know on Wed. Trying to stay positive since some get lots of symptoms, but others have none.

Hi to everyone else! Any updates?


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## nobump

Hi weekend in Nice was fab. DH also organised a surprise party for me. Nearly missed it. Wanted to just eat and go back to hotel. .... but was talked round. I had my suspicions. I am wiped out with tonsillitis. Hoping hot toddie will help cure it. Been o throat spray cough bottle and last of the penicillin I had....

Have private appointment tomorrow evening so working from home so can have a long lie.

Vonn hope no signs is a good sign. 

Briss that must be so frustrating. 

Xxxx


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## Briss

spoke too soon, AF is really heavy, it's been 4 days (and 4 ruined panties!). usually i only get 2 days of heavy flow. maybe they are right that i should skip this cycle. I went for FSH/AMH today as well but I may regret it. I also decided to see Dr Gorgy to discuss my immune/blood clotting tests, maybe he can also explain my thyroid situation. 

I was considering Reprofit in CR but after two failed cycles with them i am just not sure. I approached clinics in Spain but none f them responded, they do not seem to be big on natural IVF. 

*Vonn*, it's so hard to tell re symptoms. both times I had BFP I had a feeling something was going on but it was barely there and I thought I was just making it up in my mind. I did have breasts pains both times but it was no different to many BFN cycles so I attributed this symptom to progesterone and ignored it. although after BFP my breasts started to grow and change very quickly and beyond recognition. I really hope you will get good news soon.

*nobump*, your birthday party sounds great. sorry about tonsillitis, I had it in Jan and it was awful but antibiotics helped very quickly.


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## nobump

Briss that's not good your having a heavier bleed. How long do you have to wait for the results? 

Afm will be getting a hystoscopy and d&c next week. Just need to try and get ride of tonsillitis/chest infection first as need a GA. Booked a gp appointment for tomorrow might need some antibiotics. Doc did a scan and there is a growth a neck of womb if it's a polyp he'll remove it. If it is a fribriod not sure may depend on access. Hopefully this will stop my heavy bleeding.


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## Jazzbird

Briss - I saw Dr Zhai on a bbc documentary last night. You can catch it on iplayer. It's called "inside Harley street".
X


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## Vonn

nobump--Sounds like you will get to the bottom of the bleeding mystery next week. I hope you get resolution! Sorry to hear about the tonsilitis, yuck! Feel better!

Everyone else doin' okay?

AFM--Had blood draw this morning and bad news this afternoon. Even though I knew this cycle was a long shot, it still feels like a blow. My heart was pounding when the dr office called. I will stop the progesterone and see how long it takes to get AF. Any insight from others who've been here? Is it the next day? Two days later?


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## Blythe

*Vonn* - I am so sorry to hear your news. Its all a shot in the dark, iui, clomid, IVF...all of it but the thing i have noticed from being on these boards for so long is that most women get there one way or another in the end. Just keep moving forward and it will happen for you :flower:

with regard to the progesterone i have never had any issues re delay but then again i have never taken it all the way through the 2ww. I think cyclogest is fine and AF usually arrives day or two after stopping but some other brands can delay for longer - i think Briss was using a stronger one from CZ and that caused longer delays. Briss - please correct me if wrong.

I hope AF comes soon and you can begin to focus on your new cycle and new chances.

thinking of you :flower:


*AFM* - really trying to stick to blood type diet although as i have been running just very hungry in the evenings and snacking on choc! That aside it is very interesting.....I mentioned before that O types can have issues with thyroid regulation but also certain blood clotting factors. Type O's apparently have thin blood which resists clotting so i may give up my baby aspirin. Other interesting things are that sweetcorn interferes with insulin production and can slow metabolic rate. And also cabbage, brussels sprouts, cauliflower and mustard green inhibit thyroid production - or so this chap says! 

anyhow, i have discovered sprouted wheat bread [essene] which is ok to eat because the gluten lectins are destroyed during the sprouting process. I have a couple of slices with butter on top - which is ok even though other dairy discouraged.


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## Briss

sorry ladies, I've been so busy at work, have not slept properly for a week :( had my scan this morning and got seriously depressed. zero follicles on my right side and only 2 on the left :( the worst scan ever! my oestrogen is very high and at gennet they suggested skipping this cycle but Munich doctor just send me an email asking to do another scan on Monday so maybe we still have a chance. 

I have a very embarrassing problem now, TMI: I am absolutely dry, we can't BD cos it's just too uncomfortable. I was even uncomfortable at the scan this morning. I have normal sex drive and orgasms and everything but no lubrication. I am so worried something is wrong after the MMC. this is just not normal for me, I usually have the opposite situation so DH even complains that can't feel anything. it was the same last cycle but I thought it was just to MC but this months I had normal (well almost normal) AF. 

*Vonn*, I am very sorry this cycle was not a success. Even when you have little hope it still hurts. 

I only had 3 cycles on progesterone and they were different. the first one I was on cyclogest and it was a chemical pregnancy so I started spotting from about 10 DPO and AF start the next day after I stopped progesterone. the second was BFN and I was on Czech progesterone which is quite strong so it took 4 days after stopping before AF showed up and it completely screwed my next cycle. my last cycle was pregnancy and again I was on czech progesterone and i think it was so strong that it even held off my MC so it took 5 days for MC to start after stopping it. 

*Blythe*, I am so interested in your blood type diet. are you feeling better on it? I am doing my 5:2 diet and it's quite successful cos I can now comfortably fit into my old clothes but there is still about 3 kg that I need to lose. it's very slow and fasting days are absolute torture.


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## Briss

Jazzbird said:


> Briss - I saw Dr Zhai on a bbc documentary last night. You can catch it on iplayer. It's called "inside Harley street".
> X

Juzzbird, thanks! that brought back some memories :) how excited and hopeful I was when I got my first bag of raw herbs! although these days she does not really treat you herself, she has assistants who do everything, I only saw her on our first consultation and she was talking about basic stuff that our TTC ladies usually know well anyway. If I had spare cash I'd probably carry on with her cos I still do believe in TTC but I know women who spent a few thousands and still did not get pregnant. I liked Dr E.


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## Jazzbird

Hi Briss - I actually thought the documentary was not very good journalism. It was very biased and lumped acupuncture in with leech treatment! Anyway I thought you might find it interesting. I am about to start working as an acupuncturist in an ivf/fertility specialist clinic. Have to do quite a bit of training first. When I spoke to the clinic the current acupuncturist is very mindful of referring onto ivf after a reasonable timeframe. She also tries to limit number of times per month she asks to see a patient. 

I'm very mindful too after reading all your attempts with tcm. It does shake my faith in it a little. I hope I'll be able to help some ladies on their journey with or without ivf!

Always reading your updates and thinking of you all xxx


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## Blythe

Today i am 43 and so far i have:

dyed my hair ginger - not strawberry blond but actually ginger. It was meant to be blond.

run 3 miles and brought myself some new running shoes

cried a bit about babies - standard stuff

walked out of a hairdressers - having waited 40 mins for haircut they then said they would charge full price for a 5 min trim of the bottom bit!

went for a hot stone massage at my old acu place - it was lovely. My old acu doctor was at the reception and did not even ask how my iui went or how i was. Given that i have given her 1000s over the last 3+ years it would have been nice of her to ask....still hot stone massage was quite lovely.

actually yesterday i walked out of a tarot card reading yesterday and asked for my cash back. it was £45! i was with a friend and we went to a physic shop that is in covent garden for fun and booked a session with the physics and mine staggered in and did the cards and said what do you want to know. So i said about TTC and whether i should go with OE or DE and he said my cards look "fine". that was it so i said i am not getting much out of this. And then he started talking about mental blockages and that maybe i was blocking the pregnancy. I just looked at him and so he did the cards again and still said they look just fine and that i had made up my mind already. i hadn't hence going to see a con artist like him. I did get a refund.

I am looking forward to a long bank holiday weekend....I hope you have a good one :flower:

*Jazzbird* - its so great that you are going to use your skills and help other women get pregnant. Good luck with the training and i really hope it goes well for you x

*Briss* - im sure it is just a temporary glitch and that things will return to normal. I brought some preseed - the prefilled little ones so will be using them this month.

I always have stupidly high E2 - what was yours? I hope very much that the next scan will give you better news.

The diet is going ok and the running is still going so together they are making a difference. I am less bloated thats for sure. I have not been following it strictly but i may look at doing it along with a fasting day each week and upping it to two fasting days to get my stubborn weight off.

*nobump* - i hope so much the procedure goes well next week and that you get some relief from the bleeding. Hopefully it will make the difference and you will get your much longed for, and deserved BFP. 

*Vonn* - i hope you are ok :flower:


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## Briss

Blythe, what a day! Happy birthday!! 

I love ginger hair! I so wish I could pull that off but not with my skin tone. very bold colour. Do you like your knew look?

wow, 3 miles! well done. you are really becoming a serious runner. 

I always cry on my birthday that's why i ask my DH to take me somewhere away. it just feels less traumatic when you are away on your birthday it's like it's not happening. 

hot stone massage sounds wonderful. shame about your old acu doc though

that tarot card reading was just ridiculous! mental blockages??? what nonsense! well done on getting your money back. I have to say i accumulated so much fear over the last few years that I simply can't do tarot card reading or any kind of physics stuff, I cannot accept anything unless it's my future with 2-3 healthy (and my biological!) children in it. 

Unfortunately I am working this bank holiday weekend, we are launching a new deal on tuesday so no break for me. I booked another scan for Tuesday so if all goes well I may have to take time off to fly to Germany but tbh this cycle just does not look promising. my E2 was above 900 on CD7 and considering i only have 2 follicles that's just a bit too high, maybe they are cysts rather than follicles.


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## Nikki1979

Happy Birthday Blythe. Our birthdays are so close -I turned 36 on April 30th.


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## Vonn

Happy birthday Blythe and Nikki!!

Blythe--the new hair color sounds fun and exciting! As for tarot, I've never done it, I'm too afraid of bad news.

Briss--I'm sorry about your dryness. I have that problem and it is a sexy time killer. (Well, that plus the non-existent sex drive.) Preseed helps, but you have to figure out the right amount. I haven't got it quite right yet. I injected the recommended amount and it was too much, got a little gross. Then I used it as lube and that wasn't quite enough. Experimentation is needed. But I bet this is a temp problem for you as your body bounces back after mc. I'll be curious to hear what Munich says after Monday's scan!

AFM--been crying tonight after a situation in a clothing store. There is a store that used to be called Hot Mama & it sold regular women's clothes (not maternity) but marketed itself to moms. I avoided it just cause I'm not a mom. Well, they changed the name to Evereve. I thought maybe they were trying to broaden their appeal so I went in. 

A salesperson approached me and started pointing out all their cute "mom" t-shirts ("mom 4 life," etc.). I tried to brush her off but she kept picking them up and reading them so I finally had to say, "Well, I'm not a mom, so they aren't for me." Awkward. She made it even worse, though, by then saying something about how I'm still a mom if I have a pet. I told her that I still didn't qualify. I got a few tears in my eyes but didn't lose it in the store. Been crying off and on since I got home, though. It's those unexpected situations that get me. The ones that catch me off-guard and just make my heart ache with longing and fear. Tomorrow's a new day, I hope it brings AF and a new cycle.


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## Briss

Vonn, I am sorry about that shop assistant. unless you come across infertility you just have no idea but that's no excuse, I generally hate shop assistants cos they are mostly annoying and unhelpful. I would have reacted in the same way. i once ventured into mother care cos I needed a present for a baby shower (that was couple of years ago cos I do not do that anymore) and I ended up crying and even worse had a complete nervous breakdown later in the day after I left baby shower. even observing baby clothes as i pass by is traumatic. will I ever be buying a cute little dress for my own daughter? 

afm, CD 9 but I still have some weird looking brown bits coming out, and lost my sex drive :( it might also be due to stress I had really stressful couple of weeks at work but I am trying to appear working super hard cos my evaluation is approaching and this year I have not hit my targets, in fact very far from it with all my time off for EC and being on sick leaves. as much as I fond my work stressful I can manage it but looking for a new job is just outside of what i can cope with right now. 

I've been going through my medical records and I stumbled across my old blood tests. I completely forgot I did all these tests back in 2009 just before we started trying. I did not even check the results or maybe I did but I am sure back then I did not have a clue what it all meant. now unfortunately I am so clued up on all this stuff that they make a lot of sense to me. apparently I already tested negative for lupus so did not need to pay it twice :( I also did a proper blood clotting tests not the genetic one but the one that checked whether your blood is actually clotting well and it did, although i may want to redo this one cos it changes from time to time. I actually tested positive for quite a few IgGs so hopefully Dr G will be able to guide me through that. also My FSH was already 13 back then I was only 33...


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## nobump

Blythe hope you had a good birthday. Think I would have asked for a refund as well. I had a friend who did tarrot cards but just for fun not money. The hot stone massage sounds relaxing. 

Vonn sorry to hear things have not worked this month. Always disappointing. I'm not sure about progesterone. I have started spotting and I am on northisterone which is progesterone. On third week but was going to continue next week was wanting to delay bleeding until after Thursday.

Jazzbird have downloaded the series will take a look.

Briss hopefully your scan on tuesday will be better. Have you tried conceive plus? As I am just getting over whatever hit me last weekend I have no sex drive at the mo. Will have to wait til after op on Thursday and I get the go ahead. Think I will have to wait to heal first.


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## Briss

How are you doing, ladies?

Had my appointment with Dr G, our main immunologist in London but I am not impressed. I do not know what I expected, somehow I thought I'd show him my test results and he would talk me through them and explain what's what and whether I have any issues. He did spent a lot of time going through my test results but mainly in his mind so I am still not clear on the outcome. lots of IgGs came positive which might indicate autoimmune issues i.e. my immune system is attacking my own tissue but was this the reason for my MMC? how serious this is in the scheme of things and considering that lots of other tests came as normal? I still have not got a clue. he wanted me to do additional tests to "complete the picture" but they'd cost well over 1K probably closer to 2K. in relation to blood clotting genetic testing he did say some tests were abnormal but not the most important once. so? what does this mean? still not a clue! my raised B12 levels did not impress him so he just said to carry on with ordinary prenatal vitamins. he did not have a concept of synthetic vs natural vitamins and how my body "presumably" cannot use synthetic forms. again, confused! In the end he prescribed prednisolone + blood thinners. I just feel frustrated I did not have it in me to do my research and figure out how to do embryo karyotyping on miscarried tissue. that'd help so much! To go with Dr G you really need to trust him completely and I cant because I question everything and deep down I just think adding more medical stuff to my natural IVf is not going to improve our chances. I just was not convinced. 

I am very stressed these days because it looks like I might be out of work pretty soon&#8230; I am trying to be philosophical about it but I did have a cry today if only I had a viable pregnancy my job would have been protected. 

we missed this cycle because I surged before the scan and my blood showed progesterone levels indicative of O. I kind of knew that would likely to happen when they asked me to repeat my scan on Cd12 because I usually O by day 11-12 but I was relaxed about this cycle after the first scan/bloods. high estrogen levels just put me off.


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## nobump

Briss that is disappointing your appointment didn't go well. Extra test are expensive, I really don't know what to suggest. You are really good at interpreting things. That is not good about your job situation, is your company downsizing? Are there opportunities elsewhere?

I had my op yesterday, doc didn't manage to remove all the fibroid, he is recommending I see another surgeon and have a procedure with him, will need to await the letter and then phone my insurance to get it authorised. Feeling a bit tired and crampy today, wondering if all this is worth it.


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## Blythe

*NoBump* - hope you are starting to feel better after your op and that what he was able to do results in a better cycle and much less bleeding for you. Where are you in your cycle now?

*Briss* - i cannot believe the costs of the bloods?!? I suppose western medicine is based on synthetic forms of medication....the food source stuff is probably seen as another fad.

Whats happening with your work? is it the upcoming review? i hope so much you do not have to deal with additional stress. They would be made to let you go after your dedication in spite of everything you have been going through.


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## Briss

nobump, it's great that they removed some of fibroid but really annoying the surgeon could not figure out in advance whether he can or cannot do this op properly so you won't have to have it twice. still, i hope this op helps you with bleeding. 

Blythe, how are you? any progress with your diet and running?

afm, I had really bad hangover this morning, even worse more like alcohol poisoning. I was trying to figure out where I stand job wise and obviously pub is the only place where you can get people to talk so I went there with my bosses last night and got really p*ed :( I said more things than I meant to but did not really learn much unfortunately. it does seem like my situation has been discussed and there are partners who want me to stay but there are those who don't cos I did not make enough profit this year. I do not know what the final decision is but they are getting HR involved as well which is not great. looks like I won't know for sure until June-July. pretty distressing. and just to make things worse my MIL is visiting. she arrived last night and I turned up around 1 am totally drunk :) I am sure she thinks her son made a really terrible mistake marrying me... 

I am seeing an endocrinologist on Monday to discuss my thyroid and whether i need to start taking the hormone. this doc work in a different hospital to the one I saw last year so i am hoping for a second opinion. 

I talked to my mum who has been on prednisolone for years cos of autoimmune issues and she is very much against me taking this med on a just in case basis cos she recently got type 2 diabetes because of this medication, it has some terrible side effects and type 2 diabetes is quite common. when I asked dr G about it he just said nothing is without side effects... I may have to ask my mum to take my test results and discuss it with her immunologist but he is not reproductive immunologist like dr G so not sure how much he can clear things up for me.

what I really wanted from dr G is his honest view as to whether my MMC was most likely due to sporadic chromosomal error or not.but he would not talk about it he just said there are other reasons for mc except for chromosomal errors. I know all that but could not he just tell me based on my history, details of MMC and test results what is the likelihood of it being chromosomal? like 70% or 20%?

anyway, my next step is seeing a nutritionist I already found the one I want to see, hopefully she can help with my B12/folate synthetic vs natural dilemma. 

I keep thinking about my supplements. it's really not healthy to be taking so many sups and for so long. even though I have breaks in between it's pretty dangerous and I want to quit supplement completely. not sure what replace them yet.


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## nobump

Oh Briss arriving home tipsy to be greated with your disapproving MIL does not sound like fun. Did you reveal anything about what you've went through this year? Do you know how much profit others have made the firm?

My doc had said if it was a polyp he will be able to remove it. But if it was a fribriod then he would need to assess. The doc he is suggesting takes over us an IVF specialist so hopefully he will be able to give me more info on whether another cycle is worth doing.


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## Blythe

*Briss* - I totally agree about the supplements. I wonder if taking such high doses for such a long time can in fact end up being quite toxic for our systems. I have been taking the following B12 recently and to be honest i cannot remember why i started taking it again [i took it before to combat effects of DHEA]....

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B001LR5ONY?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00

I might start phasing stuff out...it has not got me anywhere. I will stick with my food source pre natals though and COQ10...and look to get my vit d, vit e and everything else naturally.

i have ran twice this week as i got v.drunk over birthday weekend and just did not feel like it. It was a real struggle but i am determined to stick with it. My diet went out of the window this week - hangovers have that effect but again im back on track. I really want to wear nice fitted clothes again - there is far too much stretch fabric in my wardrobe.....


Very stressful about your job and so frustrating having just half the story. I do hope that you are able to establish some facts soon and be prepared for whatever June/July brings you.


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## Briss

*Blythe*, I think I have the same B12. they are pink and rather sweet, right?

I saw an endocrinologist today and am very happy with her. she told me quite confidently that my TSH levels had nothing to do with my MMC BUT she still thinks my TSH was not optimal for pregnancy and baby's health. ideally it should be 1-2. anything above is unlikely to cause MMC but may affect your child's IQ etc. 

One thing she said was really surprising is that she could not evaluate my previous tests because I did not know whether I had blood yes done in the morning or afternoon. apparently morning levels are quite high so they prefer you do your blood test after 2 pm for more accurate result. I had no idea! maybe my levels do not actually fluctuate that much it's just that i did some of them in the morning and some in the afternoon. I definitely remember that the one where I had TSH 2 last year I did after 5 pm so here's hoping. she asked me to redo all tests and quite a few others like iodine and mercury and B12/folate and lots of others. She properly examined me and asked lots of questions and explained things. I am very pleased. she also wants me to do a scan of my thyroid just on case.

One thing she said was that i should not lose any more weight... I need so little for my motivation to go out of the window, as soon as she said it I went out and had a burger! and today was supposed to be my fasting day!! I did lose quite a lot of weight and can easily fit into my normal clothes but i really wanted to reach my old weight. just needed 2-3 kg more to lose to be totally happy.


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## tarot

Hi Briss...

You probably don't remember me but I remember you asking about the menstrual blood test at Serum over on FF. I have followed your journey as I have many others and hope you don't mind me letting you know about an amazing improvement we have had with DH sperm after treating him with Serums protocol after infection was picked up on the menstrual test

I used to spend hours following ladies stories for ideas on things we could try so feel I would like to put something back by sharing our story.

I tested positive for Chlamydia on Serum's test but always negative I the UK.....never had a std symptom in my life. Penny at Serum wanted me and DH to take a long course of antibiotics which I initially felt very uneasy about as i prefer a more holistic approach but after a year of supplements,limited alcohol,boxers etc and DH sperm getting worse on each SA we decided to bite the bullet and go for it.

His sperm has improved from 3 million last test to 30 million, morphology form 1% to 10 % and DNA fragmentation normal. I totally believe this is the antibiotics. I had a hysteroscopy and had scarring in my uterus and red patches of infection still there which Penny said will go.

Please please please do not think this is a bragging showing off post. I was so saddened after the initial elation of our improvement as I could not help thinking of so many ladies who are desperate to improve their DH sperm and it could be this easy. I know you expressed an interest in the Serum test and just wanted to report back on our experience of it.

Good luck with your next cycle Briss.....we cycle in June......let the madness begin!!


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## Briss

*tarot*, thank you! very encouraging! I was wondering about menstrual blood test. Dr G actually offers this test as well, for 500 obviously more expensive than Serum but less challenging logistically and I guess they get a "fresher" sample. I'll think about it. I did not realise this could have an effect on sperm. I was not worried about STDs because I only had 2 partners (including DH) with whom I did not use protection but I recently got herpes which was quite a shock. apparently you can have an infection for years and years without knowing. In my case it was 13 years! I always tested negative for Chlamydia and the rest of it but I do wonder now. 

did your DH have consistently low numbers on several SAs before you started antibiotics? 

We have been to the best urologists and tried so many things, holistic and hard core medicine but his count is consistently between 1-11 million and morphology 0-3%. that's why we are doing IMSI now but my recent MMC makes me wonder if sperm quality was to blame. Although its most likely egg quality I think, really hard to say I can only guess.


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## tarot

Hi Briss,

Yes,he had three SA tests last year May,June and September. We tried everything to improve it all between 3 mill and million, rubbish motility and 1% morphology.

You don't need to go to Greece to do it.Just send some blood in a sterile pot,apparantly it doesn't need to be fresh to be accurate. Serum were very helpful arranging it by email .

I've never had an std either and been with DH 23 years so it was shock but I do believe in the test going by the SA and also the evidence of infection in my uterus.

I wish we had done the test earlier rather than watching DH so low after repeated bad results....hope this might be helpful to you.


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## tarot

Briss......sorry,forgot to add yes, we all think it was purely down to the infection that the sperm was so rubbish. According to Penny at Serum Chlamydia is a very common cause.


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## Briss

ladies, I need a little help in deciding what to do. I just got my FSH/AMH results and I cannot find it in me to open the envelope and find out what the results are. I am scared. My options are: it can either be bad and similar to what I had before or it can be very bad and potentially devastating like "end of the road" bad. Do I really need to know? if it's really bad it will affect me I am sure, I will feel really depressed. it can also be particularly bad because it did the test on my first cycle after MMC and I only had 2 follicles and my estrogen was super high so it was not a normal cycle. also, I am doing all I can any way and I am not going to have stimulation so my FSH does not mean that much. but obviously if the results are similar to what they were before I will feel more confident that we have a bit more time to keep on trying. although I am going to keep on trying anyway. do you see any benefit oin knowing my results at this stage?


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## nobump

Hi briss,
I think you should open the results. I think you will keep wondering if you don't. If the results are bad you have support here if you need it. If they show little or no difference then you will know what your next move is.

Xxx


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## Briss

I just checked it and obviously regret it, it shows post menopausal levels far above anything I've seen. I'll have to repeat it cos I just cannot go on knowing what I've just seen...I'm not even going to post it here threw the paper away :( depressed


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## terripeachy

:hugs: Repeat it..either in the morning or afternoon (the opposite of what you did this time). Maybe your endocrinologist is onto something. :hugs:


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## nobump

:hugs::hugs: I agree repeat the test. :hugs::hugs:


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## Blythe

Oh Briss - i hate those stupid tests. We have been on these boards long enough to know that sometimes they mean nothing particularly with natural IVF cycles. However, i know when sitting down and looking at those figures change over the years can be so upsetting.

big hugs to you and yes please do test again....:flower:


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## nobump

Hi Briss, how are you doing? have you though about what your next move is?

Blythe how are you doing?

Tarot, I wish there was a magic drug that would improve everything, although your results look good.


AFM, Just had an appointment with new consultant, should be getting booked in for an endometrial resection next week to remove my fybroid, hopefully on Tuesday or Friday next week hopefully this will be the end to the persistent bleeding, tried to get an answer out of him re his thoughts on whether I should try another IVF cycle, but couldn't get a clear response. I keep seeing adoption/fostering adverts, and today I was positive the couple at the next table to me were discussing being successful with fostering or adoption. Not sure if I am having second thoughts about going down this route, need to try and sort things out in my head before discussing this with my DH.


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## Blythe

nobump - Hi :flower: I am ok...i have just returned from work and have some leave to look forward to so i am happy this evening!

Oh i really do hope that they are able to remove the fybroid and that it means no more heavy bleeds. You have been through enough. Please report back. I think about adoption alot.....


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## Briss

*tarot*, I decided to go for it and sent my blood to Athens :) I still find it so bizarre to do something like this. collecting it was a nightmare and I managed literally a few drops even though my AF was heavy as usual. it just goes everywhere except to the pot! I hope they can still use it. Also I had to use royal mail cos others are over 70 pounds which makes the whole thing a bit too expensive. I also contacted Serum about possibly doing natural IMSI next week, not sure if they can manage at such notice. They seemed very responsive and easy to communicate. They have actually told me that we should consider just going 40 day antibiotics for DH anyway and I know ladies who went for it and have good results. 

*terripeachy*, is it a BFP I see in your signature? congratulations!! keeping everything crossed all goes well. 

*nobump*, Best of luck with your endometrial resection next week, hope it goes well and finally fixed your bleeding issue. 

*Blythe*, I spoke to other high FSH ladies and basically the general opinion is that at this stage it's pointless to know your FSH/AMH levels. they bring nothing but heartache so I decided not to re-test. Just trying to erase these terrible results from my memory and go on. 

*afm*, I had a bit of good news on my thyroid front. apparently I had no reason to be worried or think that thyroid might be affecting our chances. my thyroid turns out to be fine better than fine perfect my TSH is between 1 and 2. I am so pleased cos after terrible FSH/AMH news I reconciled with the fact that I will have to go on thyroid hormone so was really surprised with my results. I had a lot of tests done including a scan and all were fine. I'm just puzzled why no one ever in all my years looking at my TSH mentioned that it should only be taken in the afternoon!! this is such a crucial detail! I went back and checked my previous tests and apparently the ones over 3 were all morning tests. I did not need to worry about thyroid at all, just needed to do my bloods after 2 pm... I was told to repeat the tests once I am pregnant just in case and anything below 3 is fine.

The doc also requested my mercury levels which is taking a while to do, so curious about that.

I am enjoying the result of my almost 5 month weight loss struggle :) I have not reached my ideal weight yet but I have lost a lot and am finally feeling and looking slim. I am probably going to stop aggressive dieting and focus on egg quality friendly foods. my endocrinologist mentioned plenty of milk and diary products is a must.


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## tarot

Briss.....that's great. You won't regret it! Like you I found the whole concept of it very odd but am convinced that was our problem. Sorry I should have said I sent mine royal mail as well.

The 40 days of Doxy are worth doing .....they also put me on a 25 day course.

I THINK imsi/picsi and icsi are all included in the cost and used if needed.


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## Briss

I wonder if we can still carry on with natural IVF while DH is on this 40 day antibiotic regime? I would find it hard if we have to wait, it's basically losing two cycles.


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## Souted83

I have tried Chinese acupuncture technique but could not do it perfectly and have tried to learn it online but all in vain. Can you tell me how to learn it?


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## terripeachy

Briss-Yeah, I had a strong BFP, but I had a miscarriage, unfortunately. I had a D&C on the 14th of May. I didn't want to delete that part of my signature, so it is a little deceiving, but nosy people don't need to know, and others that keep up with me already know. Hope your next round of tests goes well. I'm keeping everything crossed for you as well. :hugs:


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## tarot

Briss said:


> I wonder if we can still carry on with natural IVF while DH is on this 40 day antibiotic regime? I would find it hard if we have to wait, it's basically losing two cycles.

Briss......I can't see it would be a problem. We were not told to not try naturally while doing the antibiotics and if I get a BFP I'm pretty sure you are put back on them for a while. If you email Katie at Serum she will be able to tell you.

I was told however that I had to take the antibiotics at the same time as my DH so as not to reinfect each other or use precautions. Like you I found the whole idea bizzare especially after being married for 24 years and never had an std. 

I don't know which test you did but I tested negative for Chlamydia on the 7 in one test but positive on the Locus test which happens quite a lot apparently as that one is more sensitive.


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## Briss

*terripeachy*, how devastating! I am so sorry. Having just gone through that myself I understand the heartache too well. How are you coping? Can I ask (and feel free to ignore me if you think it's none of my business) why did you opt for D&C? I am asking cos I was struggling to make a decision between letting it happen naturally, taking some medication to speed things alone and going for D&C. D&C seemed a good option as it would have allowed us to do karyotyping on the embryo which is so important as I see now. have you had a chance to do karyotyping? 

*Tarot*, I asked for Locus test and for 7 others but still not sure if my sample is suitable. I am reading up on Serum and it seems they like paying your IVF fees is a bit of a nightmare as they prefer cash. we do not usually carry such amounts in cash so I am not clear how we are going to pay.


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## terripeachy

It's fine to ask. I went with the d&c because I just wanted it overwith. It's terrible to say, but if I had to walk around with a little being that wasn't alive inside I'd feel pretty bad and I wasn't sure how long it would take to happen naturally so I didn't want to risk any accidents at work or elsewhere. I was also a little scared to see clots and stuff in the toilet. I also read that even after a natural miscarriage all the tissue may not be gone, so if I did the procedure, the docs could make sure everything was out. 

Now, I did not get genetic testing. Sometimes I already think I blame my hubs for our problems (low sperm count), so if I did the testing and it came back that the problem was his I would feel even more resentful, so I decided not to do it. In the end, it doesn't really matter. I did have a pathology test done and everything was normal which means the tissue was a 'product of pregnancy' so I was pregnant, for what that's worth. 

I'm just so thankful that the 'baby' was only the size of a dot/blueberry (I guess) when it stopped growing instead of being able to see a heartbeat and watching it move, knowing it was a boy/girl etc. because for me, that would be so much worse than a dot. I'm doing ok. Just taking it easy and waiting for my hcg to drop. I was at 200 last Friday so it should be back at zero soon, I'd imagine. 

Next time I'm definitely getting genetic testing done prior to having the embryos transferred. I was planning on doing it this time but when we only had three, I decided to be cheap and just put them back in. Before I have another mc, I will definitely pay for testing. If it turns out that all are abnormal, so be it.


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## Briss

*terripeachy*, totally understand why you wanted it over with. I knew it was over for about a week before MC started and I had to forcefully stop myself thinking about a little death going on inside. it was very hard. I was lucky my little embryo waited until I got home otherwise I could have passed it on the plane which would have been a total nightmare. I have also seen parts of it which is for ever embedded in my memory but it's not necessarily a bad thing. just something I cannot forget. 

did the pathology test show if the embryo/abortus' chromosomes were normal? The main reason why it's good to do karyotyping on the embryo/ product of conception is to find out if MC was due to a sporadic chromosomal error (which is common) or if chromosomes were normal it may indicate some immune or other issue which you can investigate to increase your chances going forward. 

I can relate to not wanting to blame your DH. unfortunately I know our sperm situation is bad and I do blame my DH big time, I also blame myself for not giving him up and moving to donor sperm/single mum route. but I also love him... such a complicated emotional situation. although despite bad sperm I still think it's the egg quality that is more important as egg needs to do a lot for fertilisation/cell division.

I was also thinking about genetic testing of the embryo before ET but you need to have a few embryos for that. it does not quite work for natural IVF. 

*afm*, got response from Serum and they are happy to take me on this cycle but they prefer that I come to Athens on CD 9 which is not possible due to work commitments. I'd need to work out how we do this but first thing first lt's getting my scan/blood test to see if this cycle is a go. 

I am very impressed with Penny, she responded quite late today but she answered ALL my questions (I had quite a list!). as I suspected she does not see any immediate immune issues or any blood clotting issue but still she recommended to go with prednisolone and blood thinning medication. I'll think about it the important thing is that i have an option now in case I ovulate on the weekend. My IVF geography is expanding :)


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## terripeachy

Thanks Briss. The woman said the pathology was normal, but no testing and either way, our chances moving forward are quickly decreasing. I just can't control everything so I'm starting to let go a bit. I think it's great you're going to Athens! You should write out a map and check off all the places you go. Then, when you have your baby you can take her to a bunch of new places!

Still rooting you on, as usual. :flower:


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## Briss

tarot said:


> Briss.....that's great. You won't regret it! Like you I found the whole concept of it very odd but am convinced that was our problem. Sorry I should have said I sent mine royal mail as well.
> 
> The 40 days of Doxy are worth doing .....they also put me on a 25 day course.
> 
> I THINK imsi/picsi and icsi are all included in the cost and used if needed.

Tarot, thanks! For some reason I thought there will be a combination of different antibiotics. but it seems like Penny wants my DH to take Doxycycline tbs 100mg x twice a day for 40 days + vitamins. Is this all? or did your DH have to take something else?


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## Briss

*terripeachy*, this is such a hard journey. I am not able to let go, to me it's like letting go of life itself sad. 

I continue to be very impressed with Penny, she called me last night and we had a lengthy discussion about our situation. no one has done it so thoroughly before I have to say. she is not very optimistic about this cycle as I have developed a cyst and she does not think I have an actual dominant follicle (Munich agrees with her actually). she was very encouraging of me doing natural IVF though in general. she also suggested DH tries her sperm improvement protocol before doing our next IVF. I am still insisting on trying this month because it's all due to a chance really if my egg is of good quality this cycle it can fix his sperm better than any protocol. Serum is quite pricey though at 3K per cycle natural or stim plus flights are more expensive than Munich or Prague. DH is not happy about it and I can understand the cost concerns here but so far I have received a lot of information specific to our situation and Penny has not charged anything yet. He is also not happy about taking antibiotics for 40 days but we tried everything else and it's not like he has to do injections or something.


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## tarot

Briss said:


> tarot said:
> 
> 
> Briss.....that's great. You won't regret it! Like you I found the whole concept of it very odd but am convinced that was our problem. Sorry I should have said I sent mine royal mail as well.
> 
> The 40 days of Doxy are worth doing .....they also put me on a 25 day course.
> 
> I THINK imsi/picsi and icsi are all included in the cost and used if needed.
> 
> Tarot, thanks! For some reason I thought there will be a combination of different antibiotics. but it seems like Penny wants my DH to take Doxycycline tbs 100mg x twice a day for 40 days + vitamins. Is this all? or did your DH have to take something else?Click to expand...

Briss.....My DH only took the Doxy for 40 days. Like your DH he was not keen,neither was I as we prefer a more holistic approach normally but he was so delighted to get his much improved sperm results he now is very glad he took Penny's advice.

He took 1000mg vit c and 400 Iu of Vit E and that was all..... along with the Doxy.You shouldn't eat or drink dairy or anything calcium based for a hour either side of the doxy as it reduces absorption.

My course at the same time was Doxy and the odd day of a hefty dose of Azithromycin in the protocol as well for 25 days.


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## Juniperjules

Hi ladies.. Haven't been in here for a while.. Am sorry to see that some of you have been having a pretty rough time of it lately.. 

Briss, for what it's worth- my OH & I also took doxy about 2 mths ago for an infection my FS discovered in a urine test I did.. It's called ureaplasma urealyticum, quite common apparently (my friend & her hubby also had it!).. Anyway, a little word of advice.. Make certain that you always take it with food, AND with a full glass of water.. I learned the hard way- I came home late one nite, had eaten two hours before, and absentmindedly swallowed one of the doxy with maybe 2 mouthfuls of water.. AND basically gave myself what felt like the start of an ulcer! For a whole week I could hardly eat anything at all I was getting such terrible oesophageal pain! I was swallowing antacids constantly, gaviscon particularly helped. Needless to say it is a VERY strong antibiotic, so be careful with it.. I'm a nurse- I should've known better, but it's easy to be on autopilot when ur swallowing God knows wot tablets & supplements every day! 

AFM.. Have not been in here bcos I had a bit of a meltdown a couple of months ago.. Found out that I need a fallopian tube removed, that my OH has varicoceles (and therefore very low sperm count), and at the same time found out my younger sister had fallen pregnant without trying after 3 months off the pill. It's lovely news for her- she deserves all the happiness in the world... But all of this info at the same time just sent me to a very dark place for a few days initially- then a very low & negative place in subsequent weeks. 

Currently have a date of 26/6 to have my tube removed, lap, hysteroscopy, D&C & dye studies. And we have an appt with the FS this Friday & will find out what she suggests for my OH's issue. I'm guessing she will say to go ahead with IVF as treatment for varicoceles isn't proven to be always effective... AND we don't have time to waste while he heals either. So IVF with ICSI looks like our best option, he'll probably need the biopsy extraction of sperm & I'm guessing she'll also suggest freezing sperm beforehand as well. 

Am hoping things start to go our way sometime soon.. Am trying so hard to be hopeful & positive but sometimes all the bad news just bears down on you. Thankfully my OH is an absolute tower of strength. yesterday when we were wandering around shops talking casually about IVF stuff, he told me that if all else fails then he thinks he would agree to us using donor sperm. It was the first time that idea has even been mentioned. He said that he just wants me to be happy & to make me a mummy. That being parents is not just biological. (Mind u it's yet to be seen whether my eggs will be any good either.. But have been taking coq10 for over 12 mths & melatonin for 3 mths now, so here's hoping!) 
I can't believe how lucky I got to have ended up with such an incredible man (having ended a 18 yr relationship at 38 yrs old!).. I try to remind myself that miracles DO happen- he was my first miracle! 

It's nice to see familiar names in here- like seeing old friends. I hope the coming weeks & months bring positive outcomes for us all


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## nobump

JJ sorry to hear your going to loose a tube. Your OH sounds as though he is very supportive.


Afm. Had my fibroid removed last week. Hopefully that will put an end to the heavy bleeding. Not sure if we will do another cycle. Started to look at fostering or at least adverts for fostering are catching my attention. Maybe going to an info session next week end if I can talk hubby around. 

How's everyone else doing?


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## Juniperjules

Thanks Nobump! I'm pretty ok about the tube removal now- was a bummer when I first found out- but at least explains why I've probably never been pregnant before despite never using contraception thru my 20's & 30's.. My ex had no sperm issues- so was probly all due to my tube. Maybe a blessing in disguise given that we aren't together now after all those years. I just want it out & sorted now so we can move onto the IVF cycle. 

I also have looked into adoption/fostering etc after speaking to my psychologist. She suggested looking at other options for down the track 'just incase' we can't get pregnant. So that it doesn't feel like the end of the line kind of thing.. I think it's really important to at least know you have some other options. I hope ur hubby responds the way u want him to.


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## Blythe

*nobump* - how are you feeling since the removal of the fibroid? Has the bleeding been kept at bay - i so hope that this will lead the way to your longed for BFP:flower: I found out i have a polyp but it does not effect my cycles thankfully but i will look to get it removed. At the moment i am looking at £630 for a Hysteroscopy - im not even sure if that is good or not....i cannot wait for the NHS. Do you think that sounds reasonable?

*JJ* - so sorry to hear about the tube and it sounds like you had a s**t few months. It always seems to come in chunks....finding out about any pregnancy is dark for me [even famous people] but when it is a close friend or family i find it very difficult to deal with as it becomes difficult to switch off from it or ignore it.

Your chap sounds very special - re the donor sperm - now that is love. My DH does not give a hoot about genetics and said he would have no issue with donor sperm - it gave me a newfound respect for him.

I have read that even with a tube being removed the egg can migrate from one side to the other - isn't that incredible. I hope the appt on the 26th goes as well as can be expected and that you are able to move forward and get this show on the road. :flower:


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## nobump

Hi Blythe.
I am not sure if this is a good price or not. I have private medical insurance with work but needed to get thins pre approved. I see the fees for out patients and tests as I have a fixed limit for this then I need to pay excess. From what I recall. Initail consult was over 200 and ultrasound scan was just over 200. For my hysteroscopy and d&c although they approved the proceedure by the doc they noted to me that the anaesthetist needed to be fee assured. Think limit was190 anything above that I would have to cover. Will you be getting a GA? I also had a D&C so not sure if you can have it without. 

Maybe phone round some other facilities. 

JJ info session was interesting. DH even asked questions. They are going to follow up with us when we return from holiday. 

I am starting to feel better. Even feel as if I have more energy than before. Not bleed yet. Hope it holds off til after our hols.

Hope you are all managing to catch some sunshine x


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## Blythe

*NoBump* - that is great news that you are starting to feel better....i cannot imagine the exhaustion from so much bleeding over such a long period of time. 

I would be getting a GA which they charge £230 for or around that price. I will have a look around though to compare prices....although they always find some way of stinging you with unexpected costs. 

sunshine has been a bit hit and miss in London this weekend and in my work i often spend the day in a basement....honestly whole seasons go by and i miss them!

Enjoy your hols x


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## Vonn

Hi ladies, haven't been on this thread in a while so I thought I'd check in. 

Blythe--did you have the GA? I must admit I don't even know what that is, but I hope it helped if you had it done. 

No bump--how is life without the fibroid? Much better, I hope!

Juniper--are you about to have your procedure soon? I hope you are feeling positive about it. 

Briss--What's going on with you? Are you testing soon? It looks like you're due for AF, or hopefully a bfp!!

AFM--testing on Monday to see how my 4th IUI went. Had some stabbing bb pain a week ago, but nothing since. Not feeling like I'll get a positive. Two IUIs covered by insurance after this one, hoping to get multiple follicles. Have had a couple, but only one that's mature. I do that on my own, wishing for the meds to do more than that!


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## nobump

Blythe just to say AF arrived yesterday. Now have severe cramps. Pain started yesterday morning ahead of bleeding. Taking cocodomol and just took a mefenamic acid aas its to soon to take more cocodomol. Hoping it helps. Have follow up with surgeon next week so will check to see if this is normal. We are away at the moment so no hot water bottle available. BDing has also been a little painful, but think I am still healing.

Vonn GA is a general anaesthetic. Good luck with your test FX.


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## Blythe

Nobump. So sorry you are having so much pain. I hope it settles down and that the bleed is relatively normal post op. 

Vonn thinking of you today


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## nobump

Blythe pleased to say pain has eased up and hoping is nearly done. 

Vonn how are you doing? 

Break away is doing us good. Not read through fostering stuff yet. Think I will take a look tomorrow when traveling. Heading home via London for 2 nights.


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## Vonn

Thanks for the thoughts, ladies. I had a negative blood test, so IUI #4 was a bust. On to #5, will be using follistim and menopur. I really want to stim at least two mature follicles. We'll see if my body will do that! I have 2 more insurance-covered IUIs. After that, IVF is out of pocket (either donor eggs or mine). I am REALLY hoping I can get lucky and find that one good egg!


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## Juniperjules

Hi ladies, 
Vonn, sorry to hear you had a BFN. I hope it's lucky number 5 for you.. I know wot you mean about hoping for that one special egg.. 

My surgery is on Friday- thanks for remembering it's close : ) am getting a little nervous now but am sure it will all go well. My FS told us we can start IVF with my first AF after the procedure, so that's looking like mid July. 

Am excited and petrified at the same time. A collegue at work just did her first IVF cycle after surgery to remove severe endo, and she got a BFP on Monday!!! She got 7 eggs, 2 fertilised, one transferred fresh & the other didn't make it to day 5 to be frozen.. Those numbers just scare the c#*p out of me. I mean she got a BFP, but if she hadn't it would've been back to square one again! and the costs involved in it all are just RIDICULOUS. 

My girlfriend who also works with us is now starting her 2nd cycle next week.. So she'll be a few weeks ahead of me.. And she's also just had endo surgery. So the 3 of us are all doing IVF within weeks of each other. My natural thought process is to think ill be the one who it doesn't work for. They are both only 33 & I'm 40. My odds aren't great compared to theirs. 

I'm trying to be positive but am feeling kind of low.. I guess it's the build up all starting to get to me. Last nite I was in tears reading about preimplantation genetic screening. The FS suggested we do it due to 'advanced maternal age'. It's $680 per embryo. Part of me feels like maybe SOME of this process should be left in the hands of God (I'm not OVERLY religious but I'm Catholic & it does mean something to me!) and another part of me thinks it would be crazy not to do it- it screens for aneuploidys, like Down's syndrome. Anyway thinking about it is making me crazy. I talked (well cried) to DP about it last night and hes gonna sit and have a good read about it all & together we'll talk about it. 

Do u girls have opinions on genetic screening? I'd be interested to hear them. I guess one of my thoughts is that they don't guarantee anything. They acknowledge that it's not 100% accurate, and that it doesn't screen for everything. So Wots the point in doing it is my question I guess??


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## alison29

IF i was doing IVF i would do the genetic screen one less variable to conted with. Once you get your BFP at least you won't worry if their was something genetically wrong with the embryo that may cause miscarriage.


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## Briss

*Juniperjules*, just quickly to respond re genetic testing. Zita West's book has a very good chapter on this, she included interviews with various fertility specialists and their views on genetic testing. Basically the common view seems to be that it's a good idea if you have some known genetic diseases that run in the family which you want to avoid in your children. otherwise risks seem to outweigh the benefits. although having gone through MC recently I tend to think over 35s would also benefit as the level of chromosomal errors in sperm/egg seems a bit higher. I personally would not be able to do it as we do natural IVf so only one egg / one embryo. it makes sense if you have 8-15 eggs. the main risks are damage to healthy embryos + you would need to freeze all embryo while you wait for the results and some may not survive freezing. so again it does look like it makes sense if you have quite a few eggs to spare.


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## Juniperjules

Thanks ladies... 

Briss, the PGS doesn't test for things like say Cystic fibrosis or other known genetic problems that run in families- preimplantation genetic diagnosis (PGD) does test for those things though. Were not considering PGD, but PGS... We don't have any real concerns about genetic issues, it's more that the FS suggested PGS due to my age being 40, so it just 'screens' for chromosomal stuff like trisomy 21 and other aneuploidys. It says that once u rule out the embryos with chromosomal issues, the rate of live pregnancies is the same as in women in their 20's. It definitely seems like a really good idea. But then when u start reading up more it starts to get confusing with conflicting info. It's not cheap either, $680 per embryo- you have to pay $2,000 upfront in the hope that you get at least 3 embryos to test.... I'm thinking we probably will do it.. But I also feel like if it's not 100% accurate then Wots the point in that?... Seriously... So many decisions to make with this IVF game..


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## Briss

you are right but PGD and PGS are effectively the same procedure i.e. removing a few cells from an embryo for chromosomes/gene analysis and can be performed on the same sample so the risks i.e. damage to embryo during cell removal are the same. Have you looked into comparative genomic hybridization (CGH), it's the same as PGS but i hear it's somehow less traumatic for the embryo


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## Vonn

Juniper--how did the surgery go? I hope everything went perfectly and you are busy healing and preparing for your IVF cycle. I know how hard it can be to remain positive and hopeful, but try, try, try! Those follies/embies and our bodies and spirits need all the positivity in the world during this uber stressful TTC process!

Nobump--have you been free of pain and bleeding for a little while, at least? I hope so! Are you back home now?

Blythe & Alison--anything new going on with you two?

Briss--I'm chart-stalking with a smile. :winkwink:

AFM--I'm on day 7 of my menopur & follistim cycle. Had a scan today and nothing really growing yet. This is VERY weird since last month on follistim alone I had an 18 on day 7 & triggered that day. And this cycle, still only 4 little ones?! Strange! The dr upped my menopur dosage and I go back on Thursday. I haven't really been tracking my estrogen, but I'm gonna start asking what the results are. Had it done today so I'll ask on Thursday.


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## Juniperjules

Hey Vonn! 
Thanks for asking- I'm doing great, 6 days post procedure now! Had some fab news on the day- they didn't remove my Fallopian tube after all!! Turned out that what looked like a hydrosalpinx tube on the ultrasound, was actually a very large vein! The Ob/gyn that did my U/S did at the time tell me that what she could see was unlike anything she'd seen before- and that it could be a large vein... she took a while looking at it & moving the probe around checking different angles.. Then she said she thought it might be the hydrosalpinx tube & she's get her colleague & my FS to weigh in on it.. They all decided it looked like the tube, hence the lap! I'm still very happy to have the procedure bcos I've now been told everything looks great (no endo etc), ovaries, uterus, tubes all healthy and well. And I've had a biopsy sent off to check for NK cells as well. And the D&C will have given the uterus a little shake up which I feel might be good just before an IVF cycle. 

So.. Next Tuesday have my nurse appointment To go thru my protocol & pick up my drugs.. Aaaaaand hand over a huge chunk of cash!! &#128563; I'm feeling very positive about starting the IVF, it's exciting- but if I'm honest, in my mind I think I'm just expecting it not to work.. For some reason it just feels inevitable that it will fail??? With my 40yr old eggs & DP's varicoceles it seems unlikely that the odds are in our favour...

On that note.. He asked me if he should try Chinese medicine to help with his varicoceles? He's so willing to do whatever he can. Currently I've got him taking aloe Vera juice, goji berry juice, vit C, vit E, male fertility vitamin, CoQ10... And have him going 'commando' when at home to try & keep things as 'cool' as possible for as often as possible! I've done a little bit of reading about Chinese medicine and what I've read DOES sound like it can help to improve sperm in men who have varicoceles?? 

Vonn, so are you doing an IUI cycle then?? 

Very quiet in here girls.. What's everyone up to these days??


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## Jazzbird

Hi Juniper

Don't know whether you remember me but so happy to see you are back & lively to hear your news starting ivf! I still read this thread - hoping to see everyone reach the other side.

I am starting work soon as a fertility specialist acupuncturist. I was reading about your partner's diagnosis and came across this great explanation of varioceles. From what I understand of male infertility it responds very well to chinese herbs rather than acupuncture. 

https://www.wimbledon-acupuncture.co.uk/fertility_male.asp

Anyway I'll be following your progress and pray this is it for you. 

Xxx


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## nobump

Hi Vonn, we are back from hols. Never discussed fostering while away but have since. Not for us. Feeling a little lost. Don't think I can do another cycle. But still feeling sad about what might have been had things worked out last year. It's hard seeing my neice who was born in October. How are things with you?

Blythe did you book an appointment? 

JJ that is fab you didn't lose your tube? Have you picked up your meds? Do you know your protocol?

How is everyone? 

Xx


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## Vonn

nobump--I'm so sorry to hear you are feeling lost and unsure about next steps. There is such a drive among us 35+ TTC women & when things don't go according to plan, it's totally understandable to feel lost. :hugs:

jazzbird--that is so interesting that you are going to be a fertility acupuncturist. Good for you!

juniper, blythe, briss--hope all is well with each of you!

AFM--I am having a totally bizzaro cycle. I am now on CD 20 and I still don't have any mature follicles! I have two 14s and a 10 on my right & one 10 on my left. I have to go back in two days and check again. I started out on follistim and menopur, which totally suppressed all growth. On CD 11 I they had me stop the meds and when I went in on CD 17 things were starting to grow, so they put me back on the meds and today I'm getting close. Yay for 2 follies growing at the same rate!! My first time for this, which is my goal. I have some prescription coverage, but not full & this has been really expensive. We've spent over a $1000 on meds this cycle. It would be probably 3x as much if I had no rx coverage.

Expert TTC ladies, I have a question for you: I seem to have follicles mature only on my right ovary. I have antral follicle(s) on the left and this month I have one that's grown some, but the last four cycles that I've had monitored, my right is always dominant. Is there anything I can to do to get the left ovary to join the game???


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## Briss

*Vonn*, I am not an expert on stim meds, I think it's an art to get it right. I was never lucky with meds, only naturally when they leave my body alone to do its thing to mature the egg.

if you were 14 mm today, I guess you should be ready to trigger in 2 days or so. How's your lining? 

I have an opposite situation, I tend to have more follicles on the left. My guess is my right side was more active throughout my life so my right ovary is running out hence less follicles. I personally do not think there is anything you can do. There are ladies in here https://babyandbump.momtastic.com/p.../2273937-getting-different-ovary-ovulate.html suggesting all sorts of things to get the other follicle to ovulate more often but I personally do not think any of this works. I do not think it matters which ovary is more active as long as in aggregate you get a few good eggs coming out. 

*nobump*, would you consider natural IVF? It's not for everyone but somehow I think it may work for you. I understand how you feel about fostering, it's definitely not for everyone. 

*jazzbird*, exciting news about you starting as fertility specialist acupuncturist! 

*Juniperjules*, fantastic news that they kept your tube! it's interesting what protocol they are going to recommend for you.


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## Vonn

Briss--thanks for the link. Reading that thread makes me grateful to have my tubes, no ectopics. Yikes! My lining is good, 9 & triple layer, thanks for asking. I'm hoping to have an IUI with 2 follicles. I go back on Wed am for another check, and yes, I hope to trigger Wed and IUI Fri. We will see!


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## Briss

vonn, best of luck i so hope this one works. two follicles is good and you may have smaller ones releasing good eggs as well.


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## Juniperjules

Hi girls.. Very quiet in here.. I've got my EPU on Thursday.. All feels very surreal at this stage.. Still can't really believe I'm doing IVF.. Can't really even contemplate it working! It all feels very abstract, almost like it's happening to someone else! Am feeling pretty good though apart from randomly getting a bit of a cold yesterday- but I'm on prednisolone to suppress my immune system so maybe that makes sense- otherwise I NEVER get sick.. Haven't had a cold for maybe 3 years! 

So they see about 16 follicles, and about 10-11 of them will fingers crossed be at the right size at EPU.. 

How are u all doing? Where is everyone at? Hope ur all well!


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## Briss

*Juniperjules*, 16 follicles is a great results!! Best of luck on Thursday! I hope you will get a lot of good quality eggs. prednisolone is often used when there are immune issues that may affect the pregnancy so hopefully this will help with smooth implantation. sorry you've got a cold. I had a cold on my previous IVF and was feeling rather unwell but it was still a bfp cycle (minus MMC) so this should not affect your chances. keeping everything crossed 

*Vonn*, how are you feeling? it's a bit strange that they had to stim you twice in one cycle but looks like the second one worked. Hopefully you will get a good result soon.


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## Vonn

Juniper--16 follicles is amazing, good work! Best of luck on collection day. Please update us with how many are retrieved, how many are fertilized, etc. I'll be thinking of you! Will you be doing a fresh transfer or FET?

Briss--yes, thanks for asking, it was really bizarre. I couldn't believe when they put me back on the meds again. But it worked, I ended up with 2 mature follicles and am now 10 DPO/DPIUI. DH and I have an appt with the RE tomorrow morning to talk next steps, so I may test FMU tomorrow just to see. I'd love nothing more than to walk into that office and say, "Give me a blood test, I think I'm pregnant!" Not likely, but I know it's important to think positively. I fluctuate between daydreaming pregnant-mama fantasies and feeling completely hopeless. I don't know how to balance it all out.

I hope things are well with you.

Hi to everyone else! Any updates?


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## nobump

JJ good luck for Thursday. 

Vonn FX for tomorrow! 

Afm think we are giving up. Just been one thing after another this year. Op has stopped bleeding. Then when we got home hubby hurt his leg and been out of order since... his leg is still a bit sore and bruised.. my gran has passed away... feel bad she kept asking when I was starting a family..... somethings are just not meant to be..... 

How is everyone else doing? 

Xx


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## Blythe

*nobump* - so sorry about your grandmother. It sounds like you have been having a hard time of it with your DH's leg too. Is it an option to step back from it for 2 months and then revisit the subject again after the summer perhaps rather than give up just yet. You have come so far and so pleased to read that the bleeding has been sorted at last. :flower:

*JJ *- fantastic number of follies :) finger crossed that you have a great cycle with the best possible outcome. Please update.

*Vonn* - thinking of you today and hoping for your much longed for BFP :flower:


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## nobump

Blythe think I'm just aware of DH age he is 10 years older than me and I am 40. If things happen naturally great. If not its not meant to be. If we are going to do another cycle I need to loose a bit of weight. But not sure I can cope with the meds again. 

How's things with you?


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## Juniperjules

Hi ladies, how is everyone travelling?? Sorry I forgot to pop in here to update on my EPU etc.. So here goes.. Been a very roller coaster like month since EPU. 

Nobump sorry to hear about your gran passing. It makes me sad sometimes that my grandparents never got to meet any children of mine.. My granpa died in 2009, he was the last grandparent- so he could've met a child if I'd had one. Makes me sad if I think about it. Hope ur hubby's leg is better now?


So they retrieved 13 eggs, and injected 12 with ICSI-HA. 6 fertilised, by day 3 all were b/w 7-10 cells so travelling well. By day 5 one was a hatching blastocyst & was biopsied for PGS )testing for aneuploidys), and they gave the others till day 6.. Sadly by day 6 none of the others could be biopsied or frozen : ( 

My lining was too thin to transfer a fresh embryo. Which was extremely disappointing. Soooo deflated at that point. We had said if we had any to transfer we would do so regardless of PGS. But my lining got to 4.8, so the doc put me on progynova 6mg a day, for the week up until day before transfer.. I had an U/s and lining had gone backwards! Was now 3.6!!! Was so frucking annoyed!! 

Anyway, have just had 3 weeks of waiting & on Friday found out our little snow-baby is NORMAL!!! couldn't believe it.. Was so sure it would be bad news. Gives me hope that we CAN make a normal embie. Doc had said to me prior to getting the results that if the embie tests normal u then have a 60% chance of pregnancy.. So that's something! 

So.. The next step now is I have a phone appt on Thursday with a reproductive immunologist in Sydney to get his opinion on an immune protocol to do during an FET. I have high anti thyroid antibodies, I have Raynaud's in my hands & feet, & I also have an ANA of 1:2560, which is as high as it could be.. So my immune system is attacking something in my body & from the load of reading I've done, I'm almost certain it's why I've never in my life even been pregnant before. The RI in Sydney trained under a Dr Alan Beer in Chicago who was a kind of pioneer in all the pregnancy / immune related issues. From what I've read they feel that can be in 2 categories, someone who's never been pregnant- auto immune, and someone who's been pregnant once before but now has repeated m/c - allo immune.. 

This is what they say are the indicators for further immune testing from the website:

*******************************
Overview of Reproductive Immunology Testing
I. Indicators for Immune Testing
The indications are as follows:
(a) two miscarriages or two IVF failures after age 35
or three miscarriages or IVF failure before age 35,
(b) poor egg production from a stimulated cycle (less than 6 eggs),
(c) blighted eggs,
(d) idiopathic (unknown cause) infertility,
(e) previous immune problems (ANA positive, rheumatoid arthritis, and/or lupus),
(f) previous pregnancies that have shown ******** fetal growth, and
(g) one living child and repeat miscarriages while attempting to have a second child.
********************

So anyway, my plan is to get a treatment protocol from this doctor in Syd, then use it when we do a FET. I've been reading & talking to soooooo many girls here in Australia who have had either repeated IVF failures or multiple m/c, and after being treated by this doc, they have success. So I'm a believer now and I'm prepared to try it. 

We've decided to do another IVF cycle in November in the hope we can get maybe another embryo before I get even older! Then do a transfer in jan/feb... Money is just slippin thru our fingers at the moment but am telling myself it'll be worth it if we end up with a child!! 

Sorry for the long post! Had lots to say! Where is everyone else at??


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## terripeachy

Just popping in to say hi to Juniper Jules and everyone else (miss you ladies!). That is great news about your embryo. I'm pretty much in the same situation. Last week I had 10 eggs collected, 6 mature, 3 fertilized (ICSI), and all three made it to Day 5, but only one made it to biopsy (Day 6) and sent off for PGS testing. I wasn't planning on doing a fresh cycle because at my place they say that by the time the results come back, the lining isn't the best, and will cause a failure, so if you're doing PGS, you should do a frozen cycle. I'm just waiting for my results to come back, and your story gives me hope that I may have one to transfer in the next month. I'm not doing any more fresh cycles even though I'm a similar responder to you. Anyway..I'll keep looking for updates from you.

Have a great week.


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## Briss

*Juniperjules*, a really good result on stims! you responded so well it's very encouraging! I am very sorry your lining did not allow you to have the transfer. Have they worked out why the lining got thinner? I am so happy your embryo tested normal. it's a huge relief. 60% is a very good chance. 

Immune issues are so complicated. My mum has auto immune illness. This is such a difficult thing to treat. I read Dr Alan Beer's book on immunes he really does know his stuff. I hope they can help you with the right protocol. it's a good plan to keep collecting eggs while you work out the right protocol for transfer. 

*terripeachy*, 10 eggs is fantastic, great response! Keeping everything crossed you get a normal test result soon and can proceed with ET next cycle.


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## Vonn

Juniper--I'm so glad you got a normal embie, yay! Now you just have to get your immune issues sorted to optimize your chances. If you have one auto immune issue, as you do with the thyroid, it is very common to uncover more. It is totally ironic that you mention immune testing as it is my current obsession! I had an ANA test done and had a low positive result, though the results can back weird so I am having it redone. I am trying to get as much of thaws tests done as I can. My current RE (grrrrr, not a fan of him) will only do a few of the tests, so I am going to ask my ob or my primary care dr if they will put in orders. I really want to make sure before we move on to IVF that my crappy eggs are the ONLY reason we aren't getting pg. Please let me know what you find out!

Terri--I am hoping so hard that your snow baby is normal and perfect, too!

Briss--popping in but no update? Not fair!

No bump, Blythe, Alison, all others--hi!! Any updates?


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## Juniperjules

Thanks ladies! 
So I had my phone consult last nite with the RI in Sydney... Gosh he was sooooo lovely! 

Briss He said that the fact that my hands & feet have been much more obviously affected by Raynaud's just this year is probably connected to the poor lining issues.. He said it's about vascular issues & circulation and is all connected.. Which makes sooooo much sense as the Raynauds is basically the blood vessels in my hands/feet vasoconstricting when I'm cold, then suddenly dilating when warm & filling quickly with blood.. So he thinks it's all def connected. 

He said my high ANA could be a sign of other issues as well as the high anti-thyroid- he mentioned NK (natural killer) cells & T cells and is sending me pathology slips via email to have further bloods done. He said basically you need two things, a healthy embryo and a healthy environment for it to implant, and he is a doctor who strongly believes that immune issues significantly affect TTC. Am feeling very positive about being treated by him I have to say.. 

Terri let us know how your embryo testing goes


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## nobump

Hi all

JJ do you have a date for your FET.

Vonn when will you get your test results back.

Briss how are you getting on with work now have things got better? 

Blythe thanks for you kind words

Terri thats fab response. Good luck with your FET.

Afm heading off on holiday today. Off to Prague. Be good to chill for a week.


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## nobump

Weird dream. We went to an IVF clinic and had to write in the visitors book. You had to detail what your issues are and treatment to date.

Not sure if it because we are in Prague and I have so much about other people's treatment here. 

Hope everyone is good.

Xx


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## terripeachy

Just to update everyone, I had an abnormal embryo. There were three chromosomes in the first grouping so, a trisomy. Sucks but what can you do. I tried my best. Moving on.....


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## nobump

Sending hugs Terri.

Be kind to yourself x


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## Briss

Terri, i am so sorry. unfortunately this happens. i am sure your next embryo will be perfect.


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## stefdan

I have some resources about acupuncture, I've heard acupuncture therapy is somehow effective, not only to boost your chance of conceiving, but also to your health. 

Infertility And Acupuncture
How Acupuncture Works for Infertility
Acupuncture May Boost Pregnancy Success Rates


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## Juniperjules

terripeachy said:


> Just to update everyone, I had an abnormal embryo. There were three chromosomes in the first grouping so, a trisomy. Sucks but why can you do. I tried my best. Moving on.....

Sorry to hear that hon.. It's such a hard slog this TTC business.. What will u do now? Do u have a plan?


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## terripeachy

Thanks ladies. My plan right now is to spend my $ on myself. Hee hee. So, no plan and probably no babies. I have a great life and I will continue doing fun things. I'm in Seattle with my besties this weekend so I'm already doing what I want and it makes me happy.


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## Jazzbird

So sad to see how quiet this thread has gone. How is everyone? Thinking of you ladies!

XXX


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## Vonn

Jazzbird--thanks for initiating, hope all is well with you!

Juniper--I'd love to get an update on how the additional tests came out, what your protocol will be, and if you are starting your next stimm cycle. I am so very hopeful for you that sorting these immune issues will get you your take home baby!

Hi to everyone else, would love to get updates and hear how folks are!

AFM--I am about to get my period!! I think CD 60 will be the last day of this cycle. This cycle after my polypectomy in August where they removed 1 polyp and found and removed 1 fibroid has been crazy long. I guess that is not totally uncommon, though none of my Drs bothered to inform me in advance that my cycle could be out of whack for several months. That's seems like information I would have liked to know! 

Now please let this next cycle be normal. I need one normal cycle before I can do my last IUI. I am gonna try really hard to get 3 follicles. I stimmed and got 2 on my last IUI, which was all the way back in July. It's been quite a break. I'm eager to get back to it. We will try on our own this cycle, and anything is possible, but I really think we need the big guns, so I don't have too high of expectations. It is good to be thinking about trying again, though! Bring back the bbts. 

Also, I've looked into buying private insurance as it was suggested on another thread as a way to lower overall costs if you need IVF & can find a policy that covers it. It had never crossed my mind that I may be able to save overall by paying out of pocket for insurance, but not having to pay out of pocket for IVF. Heard back from one broker who said there are no policies with any fertility coverage. I am waiting on another one and I also want to look on the MN health care exchange, but those options aren't posted yet since it's not open enrollment for the Affordable Care Act. We shall see if this is an AV enue that could help me deal with the financial burden.


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## Juniperjules

Hi Jazzbird & Vonn!! 

I check in here occasionally but yeh it's very quiet! Lovely to hear from u both. 

So funnily enough I'm just about to start my 2nd stim cycle.. AF due today or tomoro. This time I'm taking gonal F & menopur.. My nurse said the FS wants to get a few more eggs (got 13 last time), but doesn't want it at the cost of quality.. So is using this combo of meds. 

I had my 2nd phone appt with the reproductive immunologist. He said my thyroid antibodies & anti nuclear antibodies are high (which I already knew), and that one of my natural killer cells is high, another is borderline. So in his opinion, my immune issues aren't terribly bad- but I definitely need an immune protocol to get & stay pregnant. 

Our plan is to hopefully get another 1-2 embies thru to PGD, the freeze if normal- then do an FET in Jan/Feb using all the immune meds. So that will mean taking an increasing dose of prednisolone from weeks before transfer (15mg, then up to 20 after FET, then 25mg if bfp). Also clexane from a week before transfer, high dose of progesterone post transfer, and intralipid infusion 1 week before transfer, 1 infusion if I get a bfp, then monitor for antibody flares throughout pregnancy and treat accordingly. 

It's all slightly overwhelming, but I'm in a forum for over 40's doing IVF - and OMG the amount of girls who've done IVF over & over with no success, then do the immune treatment and get pregnant is astounding to me! One of the girls is 43, has done 12ish IVF, (10 own egg cycles & 2 donor egg), and this last cycle she did immune treatment & she's now pregnant with twins!!!! So I'm definitely a believer! 

Good luck Vonnwith the iui.. I also considered insurance earlier this year, but there would have been a 12 month waiting period to claim for IVF anyway so I couldn't wait! So far were probably about $6-8k out of pocket for our first cycle.. This 2nd one will cost us about the same I think.. Mind you I forget all the incidentals like the immunologist has cost $450 so far, meds & supplement are extra too of course.. Am hoping it will all be worth it!


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## nobump

Hello ladies.
Jazzbird thanks for kick starting the thread again.

Vonn hope things settle down for you and you have been able to start your IUI.

JJ good luck with your stims. Hope they are going well.

AFM we are NTNP but really think we have given up. Starting to feel like I have accepted this is how things are meant to be.

Hope everyone is doing well.

Xx


----------



## nobump

AF due on Monday. On holiday. Thought have some fun in the sun. Stress free. Who showed up yesterday full throw! Why! Not happy! Dam you witch.


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## Vonn

juniper--how are things going for you? Where are you at right now? I hope things are going well, your plan sounded great & I hope it's moving forward!

nobump--how's the holiday going? sorry af showed.

hi to anyone else who's lurking!

AFM--after another consult with our IVF clinic, I think we will use DE if/when we do IVF. This was the 2nd dr to say it really would be hard with my eggs, less than 5% chance. It's just too much money to risk it with my eggs. I am working (and have been for some time) to come to terms with this possibility. DH and I haven't spoken too much about it yet, but the bit we have talked about makes me feel he's on board. I am feeling good that this cycle seems normal, so hopefully I'm not too far away from my final IUI! It'll be good to get that underway. Who knows, maybe I won't need DE IVF!


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## Briss

Vonn, I was not going to post but any time I see DE mentioned it compels me to say something. While it's a perfectly reasonable choice to opt for DE, I fear a lot of ladies are not making an informed decision and are simply being scared into DE by clinics who tell them they have poor quality eggs and very low chances. you have not even tried IVF and yet they tell you it wont be successful! It is of course a fact that as we age the egg quality goes down and it gets harder to get pregnant and stay pregnant. and it is also a fact that our uterus usually still functions well long after all the good eggs are gone and it's easier to get pregnant with DE (considering there is no underlying implantation issue which does not usually depend on age). However, in vast majority of cases you can still get pregnant with your own eggs as long as you still have your cycle and ovulate. Yes, it's harder but it's possible. What clinics fail to mention is that they just do not really want to invest time and effort in making it happen with your eggs because it does not really improve their stats or profits. DE are always more successful and more profitable. I just want you to make sure you really research this issue and totally understand the situation before you make this decision. and if you make this decision it's because that's what you want and not because you think you have no choice. if you cant get pregnant with stims there is always natural IVF (which is what I did), if you still ovulate you have a new egg coming up every month which can be collected and fertilised and put back increasing your chances of pregnancy by a lot. but you really need to invest time in finding a clinic that would work with you. in Europe natural IVF is much cheaper and it's easier on your body so I was able to do it on a monthly basis pretty much like TTC naturally but with EC/ET. I also had to change a few clinics and travel abroad to reduce costs (it's more expensive in London than in Germany or Czech republic) sometimes you just need to find the right lab/embryologist that would treat your egg nicely. we had to have IMSi due to sperm issue so lab work was very important as you are limited to one egg per cycle. 

anyway, I really hope your IUi works so you do not need to go through any IVf.


----------



## Vonn

Briss--Hi! :hi:I hope you are well. I appreciate hearing all opinions on this matter, so thanks for sharing your thoughts! 

For us, I'm afraid it's coming down to time and money. I think it is _probably_ possible that I have at least a few good eggs & could get pregnant with my own eggs if time and money were no object. Others could/can make this happen, but we just don't have enough money. I will admit that this situation makes me a little resentful of the lack of money me and DH have. I have a master's degree and a good job in my field, but the money isn't great. I don't want to sell out and do work I don't love just to make more money, so how can I expect my artist DH to do that? I wish that were not the same, but tight money is a reality for us, and we both have side gigs that bring in a little extra, too.

Both doctors did tell us they would do whatever we wanted so I didn't feel pressured exactly. Now, if they stretch the truth when they say 5% success rate, then they are pressuring in a way, but how can I know that? 

Just one unmedicated/natural cycle at any of my 4 local clinics would wipe out our savings entirely, so doing many until we catch a good egg is simply not realistic. It is so incredibly maddening to think about the outrageous money they charge for this. My blood just boils! There are a couple places that offer more affordable IVF in the US, but they are thousands of miles and dollars away, so lots of rounds at those clinics isn't really possible either because travel costs add up so quickly. Since we want to have 2 kids it's really important to get pg as fast as possible as I'm 41, so we do want to stack the odds in our favor. I've researched and made charts with info about many clinics & I just don't think we can keep trying indefinitely. But your post has motivated me to look back and make sure. It's such a big decision, I really want to get it "right." It's so complicated! :wacko:


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## Briss

I understand you on time issue, it's a big problem cos you are effectively working against time which is always frustrating. It depends on your stats, if your AFC, AMH, FSH are good then you may have more time on your hands to play with. but even with good stats age still affects egg quality. unfortunately getting pregnant is only half of the journey, staying pregnant is not easier but often down to egg quality as well. having said that I am sure you still have a lot of good eggs in there. I have seen ladies getting pregnant naturally after years TTC and DE IVF cycles which all failed even with immune treatments only to get pregnant naturally at 40+. 

re money, i think it's probably the same in the UK, the prices are outrages. we paid around 4,000-4,500 pounds for a natural IVF but i know stims + immunes can go up to 15-20K pounds per cycle. it's just not something that we can afford. but even 4K pounds is way too expensive compared to 600-1000 euro in Germany or Czech republic for the same natural IVF which is just 1.5 hour flight away so even with travel expenses it works out so much cheaper. so basically that's the main reason we had to look for clinics abroad. I came across many US ladies opting for Greece and Czech Republic even for cheaper DE cycles. in the end we had to use our savings so probably are stuck renting for a while, my career is virtually non existent now cos with traveling abroad for EC/ET on a monthly basis and getting annual leave at short notice (even if it's just for 2-3 days) + skipping work to go for scans/bloods which I do in London did not help. basically cos I spent more time researching for TTC than working I am 3-4 years behind in my professional knowledge and it shows so no partnership for me. but this was my choice, as soon as I realised that my stats are really poor and looks like I might be ageing faster than my actual age I had to intensify and prioritise my TTC efforts. the only thing i regret a little bit is that I did not move to IVF sooner. but even when TTC naturally I could not do both TTC and career. 

just to say that I really understand the struggle you are going through. it seems so unfair. 

btw, I have no idea where 5% comes from, i really think it's random cos everyone (with my stats) seems to be getting this 5% from clinics on stim cycles. in my case I often got less than 1% cos I was going with natural IVF. most people get pregnant on the first or second stim IVF cycles. there is a small % of ladies with additional issues that either do not respond to stims or have implantation or other issues that need more than that.


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## Vonn

Thanks, Briss. You've read and thought so much about all this that your take on things is always really helpful.

My stats are terrible, so my body is not any better than my age. I get between 3-5 total on my AFC; my AMH is .149; FSH most recently was 7.2, but once was 28. None of that is any good and I know it. But, I would LOVE to be surprised with a natural BFP!!!

I do the math on heading to Europe and it doesn't add up. My guess is when other US ladies go to Serum, Reprofit, or the others because of lower prices, they maybe aren't aware of the clinics in upstate NY or CO that offer more affordable IVF (which they do just because they think the prices charged by everyone else are outrageous).

I'm glad that you were/are able to make it work to try the way you want, natural IVF aligned with your natural cycle each month. I hope it all works out for you despite the challenges it causes in work and daily life.

I know what you mean about struggling to balance work and TTC. I've been terribly distracted at work, constantly off-task looking things up. I have taken vacation and sick time at an alarming rate. And now I'm realizing that my absentmindedness has caused problems with my credit because I forgot to pay a couple bills on time & credit cards will send that in immediately to credit reporting agencies. Grrrrrr..... I'm about to start calling and begging them to remove the charges. And I'm not above giving a sob story to a stranger.

Thanks for listening!


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## terripeachy

I just wanted to pop in and say hi to Briss!! How are you, chica! It's so nice to see your little picture on the screen. I've missed your long, well-thought out posts, and hope you're doing well. :hugs:


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## Briss

*Vonn*, your stats are not great but OK for your age. I particularly find your 3-5 AFC encouraging. there is definitely at least one good egg in there somewhere waiting to be fertilised. I just wish IVF was for free :( it really should be! How's your DH's SA (sorry I am sure you mentioned it before but I just cant remember)? 

I do not really have any information on US clinics so cant comment on the price range. I just came across many ladies coming from the US for IVF treatment over here but cant say I have seen anyone going to the US for IVF. I just assumed it was price related. but as you say US is a big country so the prices must vary. I so hope you can find somewhere that would work for you. 

re credit card charges, they sure do sneak up on you I made it a routine to deal with these things as soon as I get my pay every month but sometimes I also forget and it's just painful what they do to you. good luck, I hope you can sort it all out quickly. 

re clinics abroad, I like Reprofit better actually when it comes to cycle but Serum's Penny was super helpful. I have a few things that I do not quite agree with how they run at Serum but I was so grateful for her input (and it did not cost anything). what you can do is send her completed form together with your test results and a list of questions and ask if she can take you on. She is very thorough in responding, basically this was the first time I got all my questions relating to immune tests (and I had a very long list!) answered properly, so grateful cos immunes are just way too complicating. she even called me directly one evening on my mobile and talked through my options - no other clinic did that. but money wise it's better to do stims there rather natural IVF. Reprofit was also fantastic as they did not even charge me when we had no eggs collected (although I understand they stopped this practice now). basically you just need to start talking to various clinics by email and see what responses you get and it will make you feel more confident about this or the other clinic or particular protocol and maybe some further tests. 

btw, what about mexico? are there any good and affordable clinics there? cuba could also be an option and it must be cheap there. I've heard they have pretty good medical standards (but cant be absolutely sure it's true). what about Canada?

*terripeachy*, thank you. I hope you are doing well? I am fine, just taking it one step at a time...


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## nobump

Hi Vonn and all.

Holiday was good AF only lasted a few days. Since op in May things have been better on that front. 

We looked at donner eggs, but hubby wasn't comfortable about it. I have a friend who was successfully with DS her DH has medical issues so went down that route. Hope you are able to come to a decision.

Think I have come to terms with it just being the two of us.

Briss good to see you on here.


xx


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## Briss

nobump, it's really good that your af improved after the op. it's just great to get this sorted it was such a big issue affecting your quality of life.


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## Juniperjules

Hi girls!! Nice to hear from you all again! 

I've just done my 2nd IVF stim cycle. We have one PGS tested normal embie frozen from our 1st cycle in july & we're hoping to get another from this 2nd cycle before the end of the calendar year (in Australia you get more money back from the government once you hit a threshold so we decided to just go again before the end of 2015). 

So I got 15 eggs at EPU. DP gave his sample and we left. Almost home, and get a call from embryology saying there were NO live sperm!!!!! OMG... So we drove back and DP gave another sample. Only 3hrs after the first.. The next two hours were the worst in my life.. All we could think of was those 15 eggs & the $12k we'd just spent going down the drain.. (Well not exactly they would have probly frozen my eggs I think but still.. NIGHTMARE!).. Then 2hrs later we got a call saying the 2nd sample had 'plenty' of sperm!! Seriously we were jumping around squealing & hugging each other like we'd won the lottery!! 

So they icsi'd 12 eggs, We ended up with 8 fertilising. By day 3 we had 7 still going. Day 5 we had 2 blastocysts that could be biopsied and frozen, and a3rd they were growing to day 6. This one was perfect, but the inner cell mass was hatching and it was too risky to try and get cells from the trophectoderm for testing as the ICM may have been damaged. They asked us if we were still happy to freeze this one and of course we were! It will be our little untested blast.. 

So currently we have 4 snow babies.. 1 tested normal, 1 untested, and 2 waiting on test results. That'll be another 2-3 wk wait... Soooooo much waiting and hoping in this game! 

Regarding DE, Vonn, if that is an option ur leaning towards I'm in another forum with a thread that has loads of Aussie girls who go to Cape Town for DE. It has LOADS of info, and most of the girls end up preggers- the clinic has a great reputation and the girls can't speak highly enough of it. Many of them have looked into other countries for DE and have found that CT is much cheaper & excellent in every important area of consideration. They also share helpful info about accommodation & things to do there as apparently it's great holiday as well! IVF is much much cheaper there compared to Australia anyway. Most say for a full stim, with airfares for 2 people, and accommodation, it works out around $15k AUD. Which they seem to say is fab bcos you get a holiday at the same time and all seem to love it there. Are you in the US? You'd need to convert that of course into USD. 

It's the option we'll take if we can't make this happen with our own embies. We've already discussed it... 
It's really worth reading through if you think you want to go down that track. Let me know if you want to have a look at it and ill try pm'ing you a link to it. 

Briss, where are things at with you? Are you still doing IVF? Looking at options? 

Hope your all well. I turn 41 on 7th December.. Another year older but hopefully closer to parenthood one way or the other! X


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## Vonn

Juniper--thanks for the update. I'm so glad you were able to send 2 embies off for testing. I am hoping so hard for you that they come back perfect! I'm sure you will have at least one take home baby!! Is the plan now to do the immune protocol and then transfer a couple, depending on the testing results? What's the time frame? There is always so much waiting.:wacko: I look forward to following your experience!

Thanks also for all the information about IVF in Cape Town. I had not considered or looked into South Africa, so I appreciate the suggestion! I did a little preliminary digging and I think the clinic in NY that we are leaning towards is more affordable for us and convenient. Airfare from Minnesota to Cape Town is spendy. Plus we'd have to stay awhile, which would really add up, esp since my DH gets crappy vacation/leave time & would have to take unpaid days off.

And, Briss, thanks for the suggestions of Canada and Mexico. I have found no better deals in either place than I have with the clinic in the NY I am working with. I'm really grateful my research uncovered CNY Fertility, they are very affordable and have a philosophy that aligns with mine. They have acu, massage, and yoga in-house & take a very holistic approach.

I just got AF so now I am to start my final IUI. Hopefully all this research and preparation for IVF will be for naught...because I won't need it!


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## nobump

Juniper that is fab numbers. How you coping with the wait for results.

Vonn good luck with your IUI.

AFM I'm CD 30 normally 25 day cycles. Been cramping sinnce around CD23. just bought clear blue from tesco. They didn't have any own make. Will test in morning. Do you think I can get a refun if AF appears overnight? Not expecting a positive. Dates all wrong.


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## nobump

No AF yet but BFN on clear blue.


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## terripeachy

:hugs: nobump...maybe it's too early for you to test, and you ovulated a little late. I hope that's the case.


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## Vonn

Nobump--I hope Terri's right and your bfp is just around the corner!!!! Exciting! Keep us updated. I've got my fx for you. 

Juniper--are you stimming again for another cycle?


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## nobump

Think the witch has arrived. 

Ate prawns earlier but think she would be here regardless. Cramps were stronger before dinner.


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## Vonn

Nobump--that was a long wait, it must have driven you crazy! I'm so sorry it was a negative. 

Juniper--do you have results back yet from your pgs/pgd testing? I'm excited for your next step!

AFM--I'm halfway through my tww for my final IUI. I'll probably test on Xmas eve, don't want to hold on to false hope on the holiday if it's neg & would love a private celebration with DH if it's positive. Official beta isn't until the 28th as the clinic doesn't do betas on the weekend.


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## nobump

FX for you Vonn.

Got docs Monday am. Will see if she can advise. Atkeast I can have a glass of wine with my Xmas dinner. X


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## terripeachy

Sorry nobump. Definitely keep think positively and hopefully the doctor will be able to help. :hugs:


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## nobump

Just felt like crying all day. Doc was no use. She said it could be many different things. Id I have more wonky cycles they will do bloods. Said definitely not a miscarriage as tests are 97% acurate. Just a wonky cycle. So grumpy. Early night for me. Hopefully tomorrow will be better.


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## terripeachy

nobump-You're making me cry. Tomorrow (today) will be better. :hugs: Stay strong, chica. You can do this.


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## nobump

Thanks. Think a good moan and an early night has helped. Just when you think you have come to terns with things it hits you again.

Xx


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## Vonn

nobump said:


> Just when you think you have come to terns with things it hits you again.


Amen, sister! This is an ongoing process, even the letting go part. Maybe especially the letting go part. I'm glad you are feeling a little better. Take care, nobump.

:xmas16:


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## Juniperjules

Hi girls! 

sorry Vonn for not replying sooner! I cleared the cookies on my phone in December & lost this forum, couldnt remember what is was called.. Then when I found it couldn't remember my login details! Geez... 

But have sorted all of that now. 

So.. My November cycle didn't exactly turn out great. Our 2 embies came back abnormal : ( so gutted about that. So we now have a PGD normal embie frozen from July, & one untested embie frozen. We're doing an FET in Feb, AF is due in 10 days. I am absolutely petrified about it. Mostly bcos I feel like this PGD embie may be our only chance. It's so much pressure. I'll be doing all my immune meds as given by my reproductive immunologist, aspirin, clexane, prednisolone, and intrallipid infusion a week before transfer. Am praying to god that it works. If not, we will transfer the untested embie at some stage, just not sure when as were planning a European trip in May/June. So probably after that. 

Very anxious about it all I have to admit. 

Where is everyone else at??


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## nobump

Hi JJ,

Sorry to hear your embryos came back abnormal. 

Good luck with FET in Feb. Guess you just need to follow docs advice. 

Trip to Europe sounds good. Where will you go? For how long?

I am good. AF was a little early in Jan. Holiday booked in Feb. Friend at work thinks I am looking happier. Think I have gained peace again with things and less stressed with work. 

Xx


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## Vonn

Juniper--I know you are scared, but I am thrilled for you!!!!! You have a normal embie and with your immune meds, I am just sure this will be it for you. I am sending you lots and lots of positive vibes across the pond! Where are you at in the process now? Still waiting for AF? Can't wait!

Nobump--I am so happy to hear you are feeling better about life. You had a really rough go of it, esp with all that non-stop bleeding. I can't imagine how physically and emotionally draining that was for you. I hope you have a wonderful vacation!

Hi to everyone else! And, Briss, if you ever peak in here, I am assuming you left us because you had success & wanted to move on from this thread that reflected so much pain and sadness over the years. If my math skills are any good, you will probably be having a baby in the next month or couple months. I really, really hope I am correct & just have wonderful, amazing thoughts for you!! You deserve it. Much love to you.

AFM--I am having the longest luteal phase EVER. Currently at 13 DPO, but got a negative result on a frer with FMU. Wasn't really expecting a positive, but it's impossible to not have a little bit of hope. It must be the vitex I decided to try this cycle. Whenever AF arrives, I will start a mock cycle. Then we will be able to reserve a donor as we are going with DE IVF. I actually feel confident I will get pregnant. We got some financial help from DH's parents, so I don't feel like this will totally put us in the poor house. We are so grateful for that. I still can't stop with the sugar and get rid of this candida infection, and I now think there's a psychological component (continue to leave one more thing that can be fixed, self-punishment for not being able to get pg on my own, etc.) I just had this "revelation" and I'm going to find someone to help me get over myself. Ha!


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## Vonn

Juniper--It's February! When are you doing your FET???? Thinking of you. :hugs:


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## Briss

how are you ladies? i am sorry I abandoned this thread, it's just since I moved firmly towards IVF i ended up spending more time on FF, there is just far more IVF related threads there but also i did get pregnant very quickly after my miscarriage and it scared me. i was so worried that i spent half of the pregnancy in denial. i would not even announce at work even though i had a bump and people were gossiping. just really traumatised by years and years of TTC and going through failure after failure. I wrote about my journey on success threads in case it might be helpful to anyone. i hope to be able to start ttc again :)


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## Vonn

Briss!! So good to see that cute jumping girl back here again. A humongous congratulations to you on the birth of your first baby! :pink: Your success story ended there, which makes me so curious about your birth experience and the challenges you faced in the first couple months. I hope this baby has also brought and continues to bring you lots of joy. Oh, how wonderful that you didn't give up and learned your body like no dr could/would to create success. You made that happen. It's no surprise that you want to do it again, no reason why you can't! Are you and DH talking about it, or are you just thinking about it? Do you want to use the clinic in Munich again? Excited for your next steps!

As you can see, this thread got very quiet. I'm still trying, still going to acu just about every week. Sometimes the needles don't bother me, sometimes they hurt quite bad. But I love my acu dr and figure it can't be hurting, so I keep going. Been on a special diet to get rid of my candida overgrowth for about 4 months, it's very restrictive, so I'm quite proud of myself. And as you can see in my sig, I've had nothing but [email protected] news in the DE IVF department. Should have had a transfer in mid-May, now it's July and we are back to square one. I'm so torn about whether to stay with this clinic or try somewhere different. It exhausts me just thinking about researching and deciding all over again. 

Pregnancy and motherhood just never seems to get any closer, even though I keep getting older. I can't believe I'm 41 and the youngest I'd have my first baby is 42. I really can't believe it sometimes.


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## Briss

Vonn, it's good that you carry on with acu, I am sure it's doing something positive and keeps you young. i had a chinese doc who actually thought it was good when needle hurts it means it's working, they even have a term for this in chinese. i had physio when i was pregnant for my back and they also used needles to release muscles and it hurt but it worked beautifully i could feel the difference immediately. diet is also great, i was also dieting when i got pregnant. although i stopped immediately after BFP and gained 20 kg... still have 10 kg pregnancy weight to lose. 

why were the cycles canceled? is it because they could not line up the donor? maybe see how the july cycle goes and if they cancel again start looking elsewhere? i usually tried 2 cycles with a clinic and if nothing worked moved on but this means cycles that went to EC at least. i had many canceled cycles but with natural IVF it's the case cos it's easy to miss ovulation. 

I know what you mean re changing clinics, i spent so much time looking abroad and finally found a clinic and we tried twice and it did not work and yet i really could not find it in me to do all that research all over again. i am glad i did in the end. and i really can't say why i got pregnant both times in Munich and never in Brno. but i do believe it's to do with the clinic and lab in particular and possibly with the doctor who performed EC/ET. 

my labour was rather long, two days!! it might be my fault cos i wanted natural birth and perhaps i was naive. i learnt hypnobirthing and various other techniques and was sure i was prepared but frankly nothing can prepare you. my baby was also quite big 4.250 kg while i am petite this was definitely a factor. i do not want to scare you with details cos at the end of the day almost every woman will have a story to tell about her birth experience but yours (and I am sure you will get to experience it and hopefully soon) will be different to everyone else's. 

the first weeks/months after birth and again it's different for everyone but for me it's been hard cos i ended up breastfeeding exclusively on demand and that means 24/7 some days I did not get to sleep at all, on good days i was getting 3 hours and only because my DH or mum would step in to take her so i could sleep. i also was not prepared at all. i did not read anything about what happens post birth because i was just so terrified even in pregnancy i would only read for the relevant week and not further i was scared. i did not buy any baby stuff except for hospital bag. so when we finally got our baby i did not even know how to change nappy and was afraid to touch her she seemed so fragile. it was a strange feeling cos I know so much about TTC stuff and almost nothing about pregnancy/baby stuff. 

but this is nothing trust me, because at the end of the day I feel happy every day. not the entire day of course but many times a day. 

I just got my bloods and they are not great. i will have a scan later this month to see how things are looking after birth. i also started using my CBFM but have not seen a peak yet. if all goes well i am hoping to start natural IVF when she is 6 months. i still want to carry on breastfeeding so not sure if i can take any medication.


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## Vonn

Thanks for sharing, Briss. I'd like to breastfeed, as well. I'm assuming by on demand that you didn't pump at all. Is that the case? Do you know much about how it works to ttc while bf? Can you only do it if your period returns or can you take something to jump start your cycle while still producing milk?

The cancelled cycles were for a couple reasons. The most recent one decided not continue cycling, so wasn't available for another cycle. The other two tested positive as carriers for some genetic disease. They don't generally test the donors, but someone tested frozen eggs from the donor we had reserved and were about to start with (the day after baseline scan and labs that gave us the go-ahead). They said once they had that info that they couldn't let her cycle anymore. I was really, really upset. The clinic told us that they would do the genetic screening on any donor we wanted, so we picked another one and she also tested positive as a carrier for some condition. 

We are gonna try again with them. Picked another donor, waiting to hear if she wants to go again. I'm tempted to change to Reprofit, but DH isn't quite there yet and I can understand that.


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## Briss

do you know what genetic decease it was? it sounds very strange that they randomly decided to test the eggs (were they eggs or embryos?) and so late when you already started your cycle. sounds irresponsible but then IVF world is like that unfortunately. 
are you still going to use your DH's sperm? it all does not sounds very promising to me, I would be thinking about switching clinics tbh. 

on demand means you feed the baby when she asks for it which in my case is all the time :) wiser women establish some kind of routine say feeding every 3 hours, I was not able to that. i followed WHO guidelines a bit too literally. also waited for a month before i tried introducing dummy and bottle and unfortunately by that time my DD was smart enough to know the difference and rejected it all. it also makes it harder to go out co I have to be prepared to BF anytime anywhere, a bit outside my comfort zone but when you baby is crying you will do anything 

I am still not sure how TTC and BF work. in my case it seems to me that I still have a cycle, unlike most women who don't have a cycle for a few months after birth when they BF. My cycle is still very unusual so i am not sure if this is it. also got my bloods back and they are not what I am used to. i hope my scan later this months can clarify what's going on.I know that in a natural world some women successfully combine pregnancy and BF but then they get pregnant naturally so it might be different. I'd like to go to Munich but will contact them later on when I have had my scan. still not sure how we are going to fly over there for EC/ET with a small baby but i'll cross that bridge when it comes.


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## gingmg

BRISS!!!!!! Massive congrats on the birth of your baby girl!! I am over the moon happy for you!! I wondered if you had gotten pregnant and were too afraid to say it out loud here. Im so glad you came back to update, I was afraid I'd never know. You had such a tough road, you deserve every ounce of happiness. I'm full of smiles for you.

I am still breastfeeding my son too and just recently had an appointment with my RE to talk about a FET to try for number 2. She said it was her policy that I stop before she will let me move forward. It has nothing to do with the meds, because progesterone is actually safe while breastfeeding. She said prolactin levels remain elevated during lactation and that in some people, elevated prolactin levels can inhibit implantation. Obviously, that's not true for everyone because there are so many women out and about in society who get pregnant while breastfeeding. I was willing to take the chance that the frozen cycle may not take so not have to wean my son completely but she said she has a strict no breastfeeding policy. Looking on here, some people's clinics are supportive of continuing breastfeeding while moving forward with either a natural cycle or a frozen cycle but unfortunately, my clinic is not one of them. I hope your clinic is supportive and that you can move forward when you feel that you are ready. 

Reading your updates has literally been the highlight of my day. Massive congrats Mama!!!


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## gingmg

Vonn- I am so sorry you have had such a tough time in the donor front. That must be so hard. To finally make the decision to move forward with DE only to keep getting delayed. I have no doubt you will have a successful pregnancy once the donor situation gets sorted out.


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## terripeachy

Congrats Briss!!!


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## Vonn

Gingmg--thanks for the positivity. I am falling into the numb feeling, less and less disappointed with the setbacks and less hopeful with each new choice. I'm sure it's just self protection, but it's scary none the less to not be excited anymore.

Would you consider switching clinics to find one that will let you transfer? Maybe that's not feasible because you have an embryo there that you wouldn't move, I can't recall your situation. I'm sure once you want to start, you just want to start! GL.

Briss--the clinic didn't test the eggs, a customer bought some and had them tested. I don't know why they did it and I don't know what disease either of the women tested for...confidential information. This has put the clinic in an awkward position and I have begun to lose trust in them. We just don't have the money to just go anywhere. And since it may take more than one try, it's a little easier to have a clinic in the US for ease of travel. But, again, I am close to saying let's just go to Reprofit. What is your feeling about the Munich clinic, in terms of donor egg? I know you aren't doing it, but do you know if they do that?

What are you hoping the scan will show? If there is anyone who could figure out the logistics of baby and IVF abroad it's you, I have no doubt you will figure that out. Have you reconnected with any of the people in your life you'd dropped out of touch with? Your life has changed so much.


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## Jazzbird

Briss - I have thought about you often over the past year and hoped and prayed you have your much wanted baby. I'm absolutely thrilled for you to read your wonderful news. Huge huge congratulations. 

The breast feeding should hopefully get less demanding as her tummy grows. Mine wouldn't take a bottle either but I eventually got some success with MAM bottles. I used to express a bottle so my husband could feed and put her to bed. 

Vonn so sorry to read about your setbacks. Hoping everything gets moving again for you soon.

Miss this thread. Wonderful to see it active again xxx


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## Briss

gingmg, Thank you. I'm sorry your clinic wouldn't allow you to cycle while BF. I'll be checking with Munich clinic once I had my scan. My prolactin levels are actually the same as before pregnancy. this may explain why I suspect I do not have that much milk and my DD is putting on weight pretty slowly 3 kg in 4 months. it also may explain why I started to have a cycle and even LH surge right after birth. it does not look like my normal cycle but hopefully i still have eggs. It's good to know that progesterone is safe while breastfeeding. I would really like to BF for as long as possible.

Vonn, I totally understand you re self preservation thing, i remember going through back to back natural IVF cycles without any expectation of a bfp. even on the cycle I got pregnant I tested early and got bfn and did not even think of retesting the next day, just got so used to it not working, having low expectations helped being less heartbroken every time we failed. re testing eggs, i would also start losing trust in the clinic but it's really hard to say. our Munich clinic did not seem like a good bet at first, i had failed cycles in top London clinics and this small family run clinic just did not feel like it can offer a better service. my first cycle did not go beyond the first couple of scans which was disappointing but I carried on with them and somehow it worked. sometimes you need to try it and even if does not look promising it can still work. 

this is my clinic https://www.ivf-bbn.de/en/home/ i could not find anything on donor eggs but you can ask them directly. Retrofit and Gennet in CR really specialise on these kind of treatments so they are easier to work with.they are also used to overseas patients whereas my clinic is very local and I was constantly asked why i was there rather than in London :) A fellow B&B TTCer who lives in Germany recommended this clinic otherwise I would not even be able to find it, i think they only translated their webpage in English fairly recently. I had two cycles in Retrofit and I really liked them, also easier and cheaper travel/hotels/food etc but something just did not work. 

I hope my scan shows that everything looks normal and that I have follicles and pretty much ready to start TTC :)

re reconnecting with people in my life I'd dropped out of touch with, I have to say some friendships have been lost. but then I was very happy to discover that vast majority of my friends have not forgotten me over the years but rather understood my need to be left alone to get on with my mission and were patiently waiting for me on the other side :) I gradually get in touch with my old friends as i feel more and more comfortable talking about my changed circumstances and they seem to be accepting me like nothing happened. I feel slightly guilty cos in most cases i initiated the falling out but then I did what i had to do to survive. some of my friends have no idea I've been TTC and all the struggle I went through and i think it's for the best cos not everyone can really understand. even now I am still traumatised by years of TTC, my whole way of looking at things in life changed. I just hope I can make myself appear a more positive person for the sake of my daughter. 

Jazzbird, thank you! I was so hoping she would take bottle so like you said my DH could take care of her for a few hours so I could get some sleep. it was so important the first 3 months as I was not getting any sleep during the night she was BF non stop through the night and during the day but no such luck. now it's much better as she wakes up a few times during the night but the feeds are quick so I manage to sleep. we also share the bed so I try to sleep while she is feeding. Do you have any plans to TTC again?


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## Jazzbird

Hi Briss - we are TTC at the moment. I've got very mixed feelings as things still not right down below. I've never had bowel probs in my life but suffered with fissures after birth that just don't seem to heal well. I finally got off laxatives a year after she was born but last week I started bleeding again after a painful movement. I'm prone to constipation now. Back on laxatives and doing a major diet overhaul. Basically need to go paleo or paleo lite. 

I'm also missing my own life as I've been stay at home 2 years now. But having said all that I want her to have a sibling. 

Perhaps c section is the answer. I was truly shocked when I was seeing a colorectal surgeon that they all send their wives for c section as all they see are damaged falulas all day long!


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## Jazzbird

Btw Briss and you probably already know this but good to take floradix whilst BF and ttc. Also recommend boiling up chicken carcass with feet and neck if you can stomach for several hours and put a cup of that into your meals every day. It is good to build up blood after pregnancy, birth and BF.


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## Briss

Jazzbird, this is so great that you are also TTCing! I am with you re things still not right down below. apparently they are going to tell women now of the risks of vaginal delivery not just CS. see,s sensible to me. I had a very long labour and a big baby. was told it's going to be fine but it was really hard. in the end my body gave up and contractions started to slow down so I was transferred to the labour ward and ended up with epidural, hormonal drip and episiotomy. They had to put on a lot of stitches and my scar feels funny, I can literally feel it when I walk. not nice but i decided to try for a baby first and then may go for a minor reconstructive surgery. also I have zero sex drive, none at all. I've never felt like that in my life. I hope it's to do with BF and will correct itself in time.

I saw a private gyno about my situation and she just said this is normal but new normal post birth, that's vaginal delivery for you :) her opinion was that knowing the size of the baby i should've had cs. i was obsessed with having a "natural birth" as being safer. i still don't know which one is better.

I do not miss work, they tried to get rid of me after I announced my pregnancy and when i did not go voluntary they decided to build a case for "poor performance". my last trimester was very stressful and i only have to look forward to being fired when i return so I think Im going to stay on maternity for a year. looking for a job with a baby is going to be hard.


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## Jazzbird

Briss - the push (excuse the pun!) for natural childbirth in UK is awful. I did nct where we were all assured we'd be right as rain down below in 6 weeks. It took me nearly a year to start feeling normal. And this was the norm in my nct group. I have lost some feeling around my second degree tear but it's all healed well now. I even had a smear done a few months ago which was a bit sore - again the nurse said this was normal!!! 18 months after birth. 

It's still very very early days for your recovery so not surprised things not feeling ok yet. The tissue is so swollen after birth it makes stitching it back accurately very difficult. Also I did find when I stopped bf at 11 months things much improved. 

There are some theories that say as we evolved to walk on 2 legs our brains and heads grew much faster and made childbirth difficult. That theory could be rubbish I've not looked into it - but I reckon childbirth is not easy for humans! So if they advise c section go for it. I may push for elective if I get pregnant again. There's no badge of honour for natural delivery.


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## Jazzbird

Briss - with all your Ttc knowledge I think there is a gap for an infertility counsellor or advisor. You'd be great!

I don't miss actual work just the process of doing something mentally stimulating and not having someone banging my knees whilst on the loo.


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## Briss

Jazzbird, my nct group is the same, only CS girls had straightforward birth experiences, all other ladies have a story to tell about theirs. it's interesting to think that in the old days it's possible labour/birth was not painful. I think even now some women have easier time than others. I went to hypnobirthing class and read lots of books on various techniques and possibly if my labour was shorter, say hours rather than days I would be able to bear it more successfully. but as it stand it was rather horrible and tbh things like hypnobirthing is just a big lie. when it comes to pain except for epidural there is nothing that can make it any better. although i did find it more bearable in the pool and walking about. without epidural I can't see how i would manage to cope with contractions just lying on the bed. in fact I have no recollection of a few hours preceding epidural, it was good my DH was there to keep an eye on things, turns out i was out of it even though he says i was conscious. must be some kind of self preservation mechanism kicked it and this part was erased from my memory. 

I also had second degree tear but it seems to have healed. it's the episiotomy scar that's causing issues as well as generally my internal tissue hasn't shrunk back and just hangs :( at least I was told my cervix is back to normal so can hold another pregnancy (if I am lucky to get pregnant that is). Im not sure about cs on the nhs. if i could have it privately and choose my surgeon that would be a different story. otherwise it's a matter of luck who your surgeon going to be and how experienced he is. tbh i do not trust the system and wanted as less intervention from medical staff as possible. I guess that's why i ended up in labour for 2 days but then who knows maybe that's how long my body needed to take to help my baby decent considering her size (she was 4.3 kg at birth while I am rather small). btw an infertility counsellor or advisor - that's a thought! 

vonn, sorry we are talking birth/labour. let me know if you are uncomfortable with it. I can't seem to shut up about it, some sort of post traumatic stress disorder. any news on your donor yet?


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## gingmg

Jazz and Briss- I'm sorry you had such difficult births and complications afterwards. I don't blame you for being nervous to do it again. Maybe a CS Jazz is the way forward for you. You'll figure that out. I think it's interesting that you feel there is a push towards natural delivery in the UK. I definitely think it's very much the opposite here. It's almost laughed at to talk about a natural delivery and even using a midwife is very very rare. In the end, birth is so unpredictable and nothing really prepares you for the experience anyway. I think some people just get lucky and have the experience they were hoping for. 

Briss I'm happy to read that you have reconnected with some old friends. I'm sorry your job was so unsupportive of you becoming a mother. I'm enraged to read that. Women do not have to choose between a career and a family!! I hope you find a job that is more suitable to your needs. Just curious, what made you come back to update?? I've thought about you and Blythe a lot since this thread has gone inactive and for a long time I just thought TTC had become too much. Relatively recently I saw a post that mentioned you saying you never announced your pregnancy here. I am so happy to know it was all true information. I prayed it was. I can imagine it will take time to move on from that pain and trauma of TTC. I've only recently been telling people I had IVF to have my son. I was ashamed and hadn't told many people in my real life. I now can say it out loud without my own baggage attached to it. 

Von- yes please do say if these conversations are too much.


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## Jazzbird

Actually Briss I did read episiotomy much harder to recover from than a natural tear. Give it time. Hopefully things will settle down - if not just holler and they will refer you for a small op.

I don't trust the system either. I don't know why but UK seems to worship NHS like it can never do wrong. Don't get me wrong - it is wonderful to have a "free" healthcare system but that doesn't mean it is devoid of fault. I was at home trying a home birth and kept calling the labour line to get them to send out a midwife. They refused as my contractions were not fitting the standard number of minutes - 3 minutes apart lasting 1 minute in duration. In the end we lied and by the time the midwife arrived I was already 8cm dilated. It turns out they were short staffed and were sending women away from the hospital. I was in a birthing pool at home with gas and air and that was magnificent. Painful but manageable. It was when I transferred to hospital everything slowed down. Then I had ventouse as her hand was over her head. They were going to do episiotomy but said I looked like I could deliver naturally and that's when I tore. I'm pleased I did in the end as I think episiotomy much harder to recover from. 

Yes sorry ladies to talk about birth trauma on a ttc thread :-( of course all this drama pales into insignificance when baby is handed to you.


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## Vonn

I don't mind you ladies discussing such things. It gives me a window into what might be coming my way. There is a strong push in some circles here to stay away from c-sections & really push for vaginal birth, so your discussion on that front is quite interesting. Some feel that drs just want to schedule births for convenience & push for c-sections before they are medically necessary. And regarding pain relief, I think in the US it is much more common than in UK to use drugs, esp epidural. Women will say they want natural but I think it's actually way less common in US than in UK. 

I really don't know what I will end up doing. Since I have candida and my gut microbiome seems to be out of whack, I am very concerned about potential transfer to baby and about how the baby is seeded with beneficial bacteria in the womb and during vaginal delivery. 

Interesting article: https://www.primal-baby.com/beneficial-bacteria-in-pregnancy/

I am literally doing everything I can to get things in order, been on the candida diet for over 5 months (still in the killing-off phase, which surprised my dr) and am taking lots of supplements. Have now realized I have low stomach acid and need digestive enzymes so have added those into the mix. And we still can't figure out exactly why my T3 (the active thyroid hormone) doesn't get into my cells at the right rate. Thought it was too high a level of reverse T3 blocking, but treated for that and it didn't seem to make a difference. Now my dr has added vitamin A as that has a role in cell receptor functioning in the gut. While ttc I have to be on the right balance of hormones for baby; the amount of T3 that feels good to me would be too much for baby, making him/her hyperthyroid. It's a vicious cycle because if thyroid function isn't optimal it can cause lots of problems, but there's something causing the thyroid function to be off....how to know what's causing what what is the root issue is the big mystery of my health problems. 

It's stressful. Infertility is stressful enough, but when you add in my age/how old do I want to be as a first-time mom issue, and then the pressure of figuring out health problems, it's incredibly stressful. It's put a lot of stress on my marriage and my ability to focus at work is crap. There is a manager position opening for my team, and I will go for it, but fear I haven't done enough the past couple years to get it. We really need the money, so I don't want to lose out...but I'm just not sure I've done enough to warrant getting the promotion. This is one of the few such opportunities at my work place & there's basically nowhere else to go to do this work, so I'm feeling the pressure on this front, too.

Briss, you asked about a new donor. One of the two I inquired about said yes and they have done the blood draw for the genetic screening. I will check in next Friday and should find out if she is good to-go. If so, the plan is for baseline the last week in August, putting us at mid-September for retrieval/transfer. 

Geez, I really rambled on today. Sorry about that....guess I needed to vent! I hope everyone has a great weekend. It's fun to hear from you all and have this thread active again!


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## gingmg

Thanks for the article Vonn. I never thought about the bacteria the baby is exposed to in utero, I've only thought about it in terms of the baby actually passing through the birth canal and of coarse breastfeeding. I've been hearing more and more about Drs who put gauze inside a woman while they are prepping for a caesarean and then wipe the gauze on the baby's mouth and eyes when born to mimic a vaginal birth in which the baby gets exposed to lots of bacteria. There is thought that it is a good first jump to their immune system.

And in regards to the food supply- it's awful. Everything is pumped full of hormones, antibiotics, and is genetically modified and then we wonder why health problems are on the rise. 

Im sorry you are struggling to get the right balance in regards to your thyroid function. Sounds complicated. What kind of health problems were you having?


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## Briss

gingmg, it's all pretty much driven by midwives here, you only see a doctor if you have complications or need a cs. I did not mind that actually because midwives are more accustomed to seeing normal birth while docs are used to seeing complications so they tend to see more risks and intervene quicker than perhaps necessary. all interventions have side effects so you really want it to be used strictly on must have basis. although having gone through labour i am really not sure anymore. 

we decided not to tell anyone about IVF. I mean i did tell medical staff during pregnancy so it's in the records but i did not want to tell friends and family. when my daughter is old enough i will tell her and it's up to her whether she wants to share this with anyone. i find it uncomfortable that i am now effectively lying to everyone but we made that decision with DH and I am going to stick to it. 

Jazzbird, i also read that episiotomies are more traumatic and had it in my birth plan that i want a natural tear if it comes to it. however, after pushing for over an hour my DD's HB started to play up and I could sense that the doctors started to prepare for instrumental delivery which I did not want. so when my MW suggested episiotomy I was happy with it. my DD came out the very next push after episiotomy so I do think it was a size issue. we still have not BD cos i just do not feel normal. had a scan today and i could feel my bits inside are still rather sensitive and it all feels so different. there is actually a lot of things that are different after pregnancy and birth, i feel like i am falling into pieces with my back constantly in pain, for some reason i can't walk fast anymore, i can't even get off the floor easily. i should not complain i never did any exercise so i guess my body just is not strong enough. and yet i badly want to get pregnant again. 

i am impressed you opted for home birth. i was thinking about it but because of her size in the end decided to go for birth centre. I also had a private midwife with me but she turned out to be useless...

dd is crying again will have to finish my post later


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## Jazzbird

Briss - you need more time to recover. It is far too soon to be back to normal. Most of my nct group didn't feel normal til close to a year. I had a second degree tear but things down below did not start to feel normal til a year after birth. We finally dtd 2 months ago first time after birth. I know shocking! But between my fissure issues and my OH health issues we just couldn't do it. I'm glad I waited in some ways as some of my nct group tried very early on and freaked out as things felt very different. But waiting 20 months is very rare.

Just give yourself some time. My periods did not come back til 6 months. Obviously I know you want to be pregnant again but best for you to try and recover first. Eat really well, sleep as much as you can. Only gentle exercise. I know time is an issue but good to have a balance.

I really wouldn't recommend home birth mainly because it's dependent on one midwife. If you get a good one great. But mine just sat in the corner eating twix all night! She was very non-commital about whether I should go to hospital. I needed the encouragement to keep going and it wasn't there. Turns out she had her hand over her head which is why I couldn't push her out.

I think I would definitely go to hospital if I had another.


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## Vonn

Hi, ladies. How's everyone doing?

AFM--my nurse was out today but I messaged another nurse asking if the donor's genetic screening results were in yet and she sent me back a response: "Her results came back negative for everything." 'Negative' sounds bad so it took me a second to realize that was good news. We have a donor! I'll have to get the specifics from my nurse when she's back, but I think baseline will be last week of August & we'll head to NY mid-Sept. Sounds great!


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## gingmg

That's great news Vonn! So happy to hear this! That's right around the corner!


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## melly2

Oh, wow...I LOVE seeing these updates. Congratulations, Briss!!!! I'm so happy for you! I have often thought of you because I think we started the TTC around the same time. I'm thrilled to read that you had a successful IVF and had your baby girl and now about to try for a second. I also chose not to tell anyone about our IVF. No one knows except for my best friend and you all. I think it was particular sensitive because it was 100% correlated to my husband's low sperm count as a result of testicular cancer. We just didn't want to open up a can of worms with questions and what not. What I have realized is that A LOT more of my co-workers and friends have been through it than I ever imagine. 

Even though we do have five healthy embryos stored away, we have chosen not to proceed with a second pregnancy. It mostly has to come down to convenience and our age. I'm kinda enjoying her independence now (she is 18 months old), and the new normal. I'm actually very happy with this decision, but it took us awhile to decide. She'll be our only child and I'm okay with that. 

Ging, I'm still breastfeeding Gretchen, too, and when we did meet with our RE (back when we were trying to decide), they told me I would have to stop breastfeeding, too. That was a big turn off for me. I don't plan to stop breastfeeding her until she is at least two years old. I guess that's another reason we chose not to proceed. 

Jazz, I'm happy to hear that you're trying to a second, even after your horrible recovery issues with birth. 

Vonn, I know it's frustrating and many of us have been on here for years and years trying...desperately. It's great to have this support group of women in the same situation. We've all been there and we all have different stories but share the same desire to have a family. It does happen, it just takes time, patience, and in most of our cases, IVF. I was very reluctant to move down that path, but I'm happy we did. 

I'm very happy to see this thread thriving again!


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## Briss

melly, thank you! so lovely to hear from you. My DD is 5 months and I am getting a little more sleep. we also want to start solids this weekend. so exciting! After my MC I had to make it public at work to explain why I announced my pregnancy so late and it turned out almost every woman in our department including the head had a MC in the past. nevertheless I do not regret not telling people while I was going through it. particularly work cos things went very ugly the end of my pregnancy. shockingly my firm won some prizes for being woman friendly. bizarre considering most pregnant women are forced out. 

it is so amazing to me you still have five healthy embryos stored away! in all my TTc history which includes 7 cycles that went all the way to EC I only managed to create 4 embryos and only one was healthy. I also have a friend who was lucky on her first attempt, she had twins and decided that was enough so discarded her embryos. sounds a bit sad. are there any way to donate the extra embryos to a couple that wants it? is this something that you would consider or is it too weird? 

well done for breastfeeding Gretchen for so long. I would also like to try and BF for as long as I can but i feel I do not have that much milk so i want to start supplementing with some veg. 

Vonn, great news on the donor!! finally something positive. how does it work, are you going to have your cycles synchronised so her EC is tied to your ovulation? your thyroid issues are so complicating! i so hope the docs can help you sort it out. i can totally relate re stress, DH and I discussed divorce so many times over the TTC, I even made inquiries about donor sperm cos I wanted to be prepared. i lost any interest in my work, nothing had any meaning for me, i had some very dark moments and very soul destroying thoughts that I do not want to go into. if things get very bad just know it means the good things are coming your way i do find good things happen very quickly once you hit a very low point. 

I do hope you will get that promotion! 

Jazzbird, I am actually so relieved your ntc group is taking a year on average to recover. i wish they'd warn women on the real aspects of post vaginal birth recovery. I finally got a referral to see an nhs gyno in october which is 8 months after birth!! it is rather shocking they think mw can replace a gyno, clearly it is not working cos they may know how to deliver a baby but complications after birth is really beyond their expertise. 

i am not sure when I feel really to BD, it's been over a year... 

it's appalling re your home birth experience. i feel this is the most important thing for them to work out if you need to go to the hospital. pretty crucial. did she examine you? was it not possible to see earlier that your baby has her hand over her head? 

afm, i carry on with my CBFM, just started a new cycle, so hoping it will be closer to my normal cycles. a scan showed that I have a good living 12 mm post ovulation but it did not confirm ovulation. the important thing they could see some follicles so it's hopeful. my bloods are appalling. I was hoping to start in September but at the moment it just does not look very likely. 

my back is getting so much worse, this is mainly due to BF in awkward positions and bad posture and lifting my DD all day long (otherwise she screams). I started my pregnancy feeling healthy so am a bit scared of getting pregnant while feeling like this. still have 10 kg to lose but probably not going to happen while I am BF. I gave away most of my clothes and stored away what's left. no point holding on to it as I am a totally different size and can only fit in maternity clothes. it does annoy me but my priority is BF and getting pregnant asap :)


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## Vonn

Melly--I give you so much credit for being able to keep this ttc process to yourself. It is a little different when it's a result of a problem DH has. I have ended up being much more of a blabber mouth than I ever expected. Our immediate families know and I've told my 7 closest friends. I know DH has told several friends also. Yikes! That's a lot of people. I just couldn't not share. Since infertility emerged at the same time I was uncovering other health problems, it was really all-consuming. I didn't talk about infertility with anyone for awhile, but then it just started coming out.

Briss--how did the solid food introduction go with baby girl? Is your back bad enough that you think you'll need to get help (chiro, massage, physical therapy)?

AFM--I received word from my nurse that everything is a-go. It turns out the donor is not too busy in August, so we can start. I did my first Lupron injection last night! That's a crazy thing to have an exclamation point after, but we do get excited about the weirdest things in this process. :wacko:

I go in on the 11th for ultrasound and labs. The donor will start stims shortly after that. Estimated retrieval date is August 26 and ETA for transfer is August 31. THIS MONTH. This could all be done in less than a month! :happydance:


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## gingmg

Yay Von!!! So happy for you! I'll be rooting you on!!


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## Briss

Vonn, fantastic news!! so exciting! keeping everything crossed! 

i did not talk to friends about TTC but once I was having lunch with a friend and she casually mentioned that her daughter was pregnant and something just clicked and I started crying and could not stop so basically had to tell her what's wrong. really regretted it afterwards but sometimes if you bottle it up it comes out in the most inconvenient moment. 

I am actually seeing a physiotherapist for my back cos it's pretty bad. it started in the last couple of months of pregnancy and got much worse since. at times I can't even walk cos the pain gets me. 

solids are going well, thank you! butternut squash and avocado went well, today we tried carrots. so now I m waiting a day or two before introducing new food. 

something really terrible happened today, my DD fell on the floor from our bed :( I turned for a moment to get a dress and she just rolled over with her toy and fell. for a moment i did not think I will survive this, she cried a little but mostly seems fine. Examined her but couldn't find anything. there was a bit of redness on her cheek but it disappeared quickly. we decided not to go for X-ray at the moment. don't know if it's right decision.


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## Jazzbird

Briss - mine fell down the stairs. It is terrifying but honestly falls happen to all babies. I phoned 111 and spoke to a doctor. He said as long as she cried and was conscious all is ok. In fact he was wondering why I bothered to call. Unless she is really unhappy I would just keep an eye on her.

Really worrying though but babies are surprisingly robust. Apparently they bounce well!


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## Briss

Jazzbird, thank you! that makes me feel so much better :) every other day something happens that makes me feel i am unfit to be a mother :(


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## Jazzbird

Briss - bless you. You are an awesome mummy. You can't foresee every single danger. You wouldn't be able to go to the toilet. Motherhood brings its own special guilt train and it never stops. I was only just reading today an article from a psychologist complaining that children are never left to get bored. They are entertained every moment of the day. I swear it's a new wave of guilt ridden parenting where we feel we must devote our lives to their wellbeing. 

You must read hurrah for gin. It's a very funny parenting blog and there is a post about the guilt fairy.

And award for most rubbish parent goes to me. My daughter has fallen down the stairs 3 times in 2 years. Luckily our stairs are split level but once she tripped over my foot - another time I left stairgate open and one day she ran off to the bathroom with her potty but decided to take it down the stairs. It takes a split second. One of my friends daughters fell from the changing table at 6 months. It happens to everyone. Often!


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## Jazzbird

ps. My parents left me and my sister to it. Sure I drank a bottle of perfume and locked myself in the boot of my mums car but apart from that we had freedom to make our own fun.

On another note I am wondering if I should get my amh tested since its 3 years since my last test. What do you think? Do you have any recommendations? I live in Hampshire though.


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## Briss

Jazzbird, are you going to TTc naturally? if so I wouldn't worry about AMH and save money for something else. i think it only matters if you are planning stimm IVF. Mine was tested a couple of years ago by CRGH as part of the IVF cycle. 

I will definitely check that blog :) sounds sensible. I would not mind if my DD gets bored but she starts crying and not just crying but screaming hysterically and unless I stop that early on it turns into a very bad type of hysteria with awful coughing and shaking :( so i try to make sure I attend to her every attempt to start crying, not always possible. 

I also had a lot of independence as a child. still not sure how i survived :) 

and actually going to the toilet is a real issue in my house cos I am alone with her and often my loo visits are accompanied by screaming :( so I tend to hold it until an opportune moment...

I am reading a booked call French children don't throw food and it's about a different type of parenting where somehow babies sleep through the night almost from the start. 

got a peak so hopefully i will have ovulation this cycle. all depends now on my LP. fingers crossed it's 14 days so I could write to the clinic. my acne is back so I am hoping it's a sign my cycle is returning to normal. I had a really wonderful acne free time during pregnancy and a few months after birth but i guess my acne is hormonal and directly connected to my cycle and oestrogen/progestrone interplay. 

btw did you do any act during pregnancy and birth?


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## Jazzbird

Oh you must tell me what the book is about! 

I remember my baby being very clingy as a small baby. She was glued to me 24/7 although I could transfer her at night to her cot if she was in a deep sleep. I gradually tried to get her to fall asleep by herself at night by giving my oh a bottle of expressed milk and I think the sheer volume plus the fact she hardly ever slept in the day would make her so drowsy she started to fall asleep by herself. I then did light touch sleep training when she was around 8 months. Gradual retreat as explained in sleep sense book. That worked a treat.

I think the boredom article I read is for school age children - I didn't mean for you to apply it to your baby - she's still very tiny!. Of course if your baby is crying you will want to comfort them. I used to get a lot of comments about how my baby was manipulating me mainly from my mum. I think that's crazy!!! They cry because they are uncomfortable or need something. 

No we will ttc naturally but turning 40 this year which makes me feel very nervous about my fertility. It doesn't help that I'm surrounded by patients of a similar age who are struggling. I guess I thought if I knew my amh id feel more prepared for the possibility that we may not be successful. 

I hope you get your ovulation!


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## Vonn

This is really interesting conversation to me! I'm sure I will have to fight being too overprotective and will freak out whenever a fall or something like it happens to my baby (I'm being positive and optimistic here). I just know it will be a battle.


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## gingmg

I don't know anything about that book you are reading Briss, but I get the feeling that I wouldn't do too well raising children in France. Some little babies start sleeping through very early, but if it is a cultural norm that small babies are sleeping through, my guess it is because parents are encouraged to not respond to them, or at least slowly increase the the length of time it takes to respond so that they learn not to wake up. I don't trust any advice that tells me to ignore my maternal instincts, and ignoring my son when he cries is not something that ever felt OK to me. I would also assume as a result, the breastfeeding rate in France must be very low. Breastfed babies need to eat overnight, at least while they are so young. There are so many different ways to parent and I don't mean to suggest that one way is right and one way is wrong, because I realize that what works for me may not work for someone else. I would love my little toddler to sometimes behave better, sit still longer, not have temper tantrums, ect. but I think a lot of that kind of behavior is normal and it does pass. I guess ultimately I feel it's not just about having them behave how we want now, its also about what kind of person we want them to be later. That's just my two sense though. That's not to say I don't have rules or expectations because I'm actually rather strict in some ways, but I always want him to feel safe to be himself and express how he feels, and unfortunately when it comes to toddlers that usually is demonstrated in ways that makes us crazy. 

Jazz- I think I read that same article recently. I try to remember that when I have a day off and instead of taking him to the library in the morning we stay home and do laundry. 

I love that this thread is active again. We've had so many lovely conversations over the years, it's nice to see them continue.


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## gingmg

Briss- it's hard not to feel guilty when accidents happen, but it's probably way more common then we realize. I always say that I feel like my son is one step away from an emergency room trip every day!


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## gingmg

Von-how does a donor cycle work? How long do you take the lupron? Does that mean she is stimming now?


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## gingmg

Vonn-how are you?


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## Vonn

Thanks for asking, gingmg. Bad news for me, I think. I had a saline sonohysterogram today and the dr who did it says there is debris on one side of my uterus and a possible polyp on the other side. She recommends a D&C and then a cycle off after that to heal. Hopefully, the results have now been sent to my IVF clinic, though they close early on Thursdays so I have to wait until tomorrow to find out if they see & recommend the same. I am super disappointed. I cried alone in the exam room, pulled myself together and walked out to see a hugely pregnant woman and her doting husband, and then a cute mom pushing a baby stroller with a cute baby. Just keep piling it on, universe, that's so lovely of you. :gun:

How are all the moms and little ones doing? Briss, has your cycle normalized yet?


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## gingmg

I'm so sorry to hear this. I wonder if your doctor will say the same? Maybe your doctor will have a different view on what is and is not ok to proceed with? I bet it feels like it's one thing after another after another. If you do have to wait I hope the time passes quickly.


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## Briss

Vonn, I am very sorry, so gutted for you. Did they do the test on day 4? could the debris be just your lining coming off cos you have AF? with regards to polyp it's really hard to see sometimes, the lining could be uneven and this may create an impression of a polyp. Could you get second opinion? although I do agree that considering the cost of DE cycle you really want your lining to be perfect to maximise your chances. 

Jazzbird, you can do AMH here for 90 https://www.thepathlab.co.uk, they usually send you the results within 2 hours. i used this place a lot when I had my IVFs. 

I am struggling with my cycle, my LP stays at 11-12 days :( not good. i need it back to 13/14 days before I can do my natural IVF. 

gingmg, you are right re french book, the more I read the more I realise that it must involve a lot of crying, people just do not make a big deal out of it. I know this is not something I can do, my baby won't stop crying, she does not know how, once she starts it escalates very quickly and can get really bad unless I works out how to stop it. i simply won't be able to do any kind go controlled crying/sleep training. French do seem think babies need to be able to cope on their own and there is a lot of waiting that starts from early on.if babies cry they let them work out their issues on their own before rushing in to help. I did a little waiting but it did no good. my daughter initially cried than tuned hysterical but after a couple of tries she started turning hysterical almost immediately, If I delay by 10-15 seconds to attend to her crying she escalates into hysteric and it is harder to settle her.


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## Vonn

Thanks for the support, ladies. My IVF clinic also looked at the saline sono results (done on CD 3, by which time AF is basically over, just spotting) and said it is possibly a polyp and because of that they don't want to move forward. They agree that I should have the hysteroscopy. They weren't as sure about the "debris," said that could be old lining, but the polyp was enough to stop me for moving ahead. 

The donor will still start stimming, though. They aren't going to hold her up anymore. This means DH will either have to ship a sample or fly out there on retrieval day and provide a fresh sample. We will decide this tonight. Estimated retrieval day for the donor is Sept 2. They will fertilize the eggs and freeze any embies that make it. 

My surgery is August 26. We will have to see about how long we wait to do the FET (provided there are embies to freeze), that hasn't been decided yet. Depends on how the healing goes and if we want to wait for my cycle to come back on its own, or go on bcp to shut everything down. That would allow us to move forward more quickly. I don't want to get ahead of myself, there are A LOT of what ifs in the above scenario.


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## gingmg

Von- thinking of you, good luck tomorrow.


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## Vonn

Thanks, gingmg! The surgery went fine. I feel good. The Dr says it was residual stuff leftover from the surgery from last year. Because they don't want to dig too deep and cause scarring, she thinks the Dr last year didn't quite get the whole polyp/fibroid out. I had a monitored IUI cycle last December with multiple ultrasounds and two ultrasounds in May, and no one noticed this before. Not sure if it's because it didn't show up or if no one else was as conscientious as this Dr. I'm glad it's all out now. The Dr. that did the surgery said to wait one complete cycle before the FET cycle. My IVF nurse said she'll have me start Lupron on day 21 of my next cycle. I'm CD12, so hopefully this cycle stays on track and doesn't go all wacky.

How's everyone else doing?


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## gingmg

I'm glad everything went ok and that it is all sorted out now. You know how some people have an endometrial scratch before their cycle? I wonder if having this surgery will act in the same way, I bet it would. Hope you can find things to do to enjoy this time and stay busy. It's such a nice time of year weather wise.


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## Vonn

Gingmg--I had asked about an endometrial scratch, and didn't get a really straight answer back as to whether the surgery basically amounts to one or not. I think it sorta does. . . but I'm also waiting one cycle longer before FET (hopefully), so I'm unsure if that means the repair response has already played out or if there might still be some benefit. Thanks for thinking of this!

AFM--donor's ultrasound was good yesterday, she has a final one tomorrow to confirm, then retrieval on Friday (so long as things still look good on Wednesday). DH is getting nervous about his part. I was super obsessive yesterday checking the message portal waiting to hear about the ultrasound. I asked the nurse to let us know the results yesterday, but she didn't respond until this morning. First thing, at least, before we were even up. They really know how to make you crazy! I can't imagine what I nervous nelly I will be waiting on fertilization/embryo growth reports. Yikes! :wacko: 

Hope everyone is well. :flower:


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## gingmg

Oh wow! Keep me posted! That's so soon!!


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## gingmg

I think I'm going to start taking co Q 10 again for egg health in case we have to start over with ivf. I forgot which one to take and how much?


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## gingmg

Vonn- did the donor have her retrevial?


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## Briss

gingmg, this is what I used to take. two a day i think. I was thinking of starting it again but then decided against cos I am still BF. I take a very good prenatal and fish oil at the moment. 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Jarrow-Ubi...Ubiquinol,+QH-Absorb,+100+mg,+120+Softgels+So

If it's coq10 it's 600 but if it's Ubiquinol you can take a lower dose


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## Vonn

Gingmg--I was prescribed CoQ10 by my GP, so I was taking it for overall cell/mitochondria health. I think early on I was taking 400 of the ubiquinol. When I read about it helping fertility, I increased the dose to 600 of ubiquinol daily--that's ubiquinol, not ubiquinone. Ubiquinol is the more concentrated form that's more readily bio-available. And more expensive. I'm back down to about 200 a day; sometimes I take 400, but generally it's 200 for overall health. Do you have some eggs or embryos remaining that you aren't sure will thaw, or why might you have to do IVF all over again? Sorry, I can't recall.

How's the cycle, Briss? Returning to normal yet?


AFM--just heard from the clinic lab about fertilization. They collected 7 eggs and 6 successfully fertilized. YAY! :happydance: (They recently changed from offering 5-7 eggs to now offering a flat 6 eggs, but I think they grandfathered us in and gave us all 7. At least that's what I am assuming.) We are beyond thrilled! Starting with what could be a small number, I was nervous about how many would get past the first hurdle. I know we still have the torturous wait until day 3 (Tuesday) and then day 5 (Thursday), but we can at least breathe easy about fertilization. I actually haven't been as anxious and nervous as I thought I would be, so that's good. 

DH just kept saying "Wow" when I told him over the phone. He was in shock, in a good way. Of course, he hasn't done as much research and doesn't have a support resource like BnB, so he said he was hoping for 1 to make it. Silly boy, if we only had 1 fertilize using a 24 yr old's eggs, that would be a very bad sign. I've talked with him about fertilization & growth rates, but some of it goes in one ear & out the other. Poor guy is hanging out in NYC with a pounding migraine. We just got off the phone because he said he was going to look for someplace to throw up. He only gets 1 or 2 migraines a year, so he's refused to go to the Dr about it to try meds. Maybe now he will if it ruins a vacation day in a city he loves. 

One other thing...DH saw the donor. I don't know if she showed up late or what, but he said she was in line behind him checking in and when she checked in, they took her right back. I would hope the clinic would actively try to avoid that from happening. I will ask our nurse about it. He thought she didn't seem to recognize who he might be, but that the woman with her who waited in the waiting room after she went in was eyeing him up. I was very curious about her, but he didn't want to share much aside from she was "normal looking." He felt super uncomfortable on the ethics front and wished he hadn't seen her.

Sorry for the long post! Writing about all this is apparently therapeutic for me. . . :wacko: I hope everyone's having a great weekend! And to those in the US, happy Labor Day. Hope you don't have to labor on it.


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## gingmg

Vonn- great news! I hope all is still well with your embryos. Is today day 3? I hope you get good news today. It's so hard to wait. Hang in there! Must have been weird for your husband to see the donor, I hope you both are feeling better about that now.


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## ps57002

I agree and waiting to hear day 3 results Vonn. Hoping those embies are doing their thing and growing :happydance:


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## Vonn

Thanks for your interest, gingmg and ps! Here's the update:

We FINALLY heard from someone and got a day 3 update today, on day 4. I was so irritated. Didn't hear from anyone yesterday, despite leaving voicemails and portal messages with both our nurse and the embryology lab. :growlmad: A receptionist did look at our file and give me a little info right at the end of the day, though she couldn't explain it. She said we have:
2 -- at grade 4
2 -- at grade 3
2 -- at grade 2 
I researched online and every site I looked at said "1" was the best and "4" was the worst. I also read the number of cells in each was just as important, and I didn't get that info. We weren't sure what to think. DH went from really pumped when I told him all 6 were still going to downright dejected when I told him what I thought the grading meant. Thank goodness someone from the lab just called. She said they use "4" as the best and "1" as the worst, so it looks better now!! She also said all 6 were between 6-9 cells, which is what they want. This is a much better scenario than what I was thinking! I think we have a legitimate chance at getting 4 blasts. They will freeze ones tomorrow that make it to blast/expanded blast, and there may be some that need to go to day 6 to get there. We probably won't have a final count until Friday. :coffee:


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## gingmg

Great news Vonn! Hang in there, I know this wait is a killer. Almost there! Sending good energy to your embies to grow grow grow!


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## Vonn

Update for Day 5: So far 5 out of 6 have been frozen and the 6th is still growing & hopefully will be frozen tomorrow. I am thrilled! And relieved! :happydance: Here's what we have so far:
4AA -- excellent
4AA -- excellent
4BC -- good
3AB -- fair
3AC -- fair


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## Briss

vonn; fantastic news I'm so happy for you. how many are you going to transfer?


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## gingmg

Vonn- that's fantastic!! As long as they are normal embryos even lesser grades can become healthy babies, these are great results!!


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## Vonn

Embryo #6 made it to freeze as a 4AC, so we have 2 excellent, 2 good, 2 fair. I am so glad we have multiple tries, it takes a little of the pressure off me. Now we just wait for AF so we can plan the cycle.

Briss--I think we plan to transfer two. No hard decision made yet, and we will listen to the Dr's recommendations, but that's what we have been leaning towards. Twins is scary, but so is the thought of starting all this back up again to try for a second. I am completely torn and go back and forth about it. :wacko:

Have a great weekend, ladies!


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## mimi4

Vonn -good luck with the transfer. Keep my fingers crossed.


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## gingmg

Hi Vonn- thinking of you


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## Vonn

Thanks, gingmg! Weird things are happening. I went on BCP on CD 3 back on Sept 26. I was on it for 17 days. Then, I started Lupron on CD 16 and am still on it. Pretty standard procedure, I believe. Despite being on both BCP and Lupron, and it being CD 31, I am about to ovulate. I have 2 follicles (25 and 18), one on each ovary. I can't f-ing believe it. I could barely get 2 follies when I was injecting stim meds and now against all odds (and medication) I magically produce 2.

I was supposed to transfer on Nov 2 (and prior to that Aug 26 and prior to that May 21. . .). Now, I'm looking at Thanksgiving time. I just can't believe every time I start to get close something pops up. It is really hard to stay positive, but I'm trying. I've signed up for a Qi breathing class to help get zen through all this craziness.

gingmg--hope you're well. How's parenting going?

Briss--how is the cycle coming? Getting back to normal yet?


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## gingmg

Oh Von, wow. So sorry it always feels like something. Maybe some cosmic force is at work and your baby is picking his or her time to be born. Not sure exactly what I believe in but sometimes it's comforting to at least think there is a reason when things don't work out how you were planning. What is that Qi breathing class like? Do you like it? I participated in a mind body group when I was TTC and I did find it helpful in helping me to feel calmer, look at things differently, and overall just feel better. 

I'm ok. I lost my grandmother a few weeks ago so that has been tough but its ok. I'm going in the morning to have my labs drawn to start the process of our FET. I still think we are a couple months away from actually doing it, but it does feel kinda exciting in any case.


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## gingmg

Any recommendations on things to do to encourage a good, thick, healthy lining?


----------



## gingmg

Vonn- I was thinking of my last post to you and I didn't in any mean to trivialize this for you. I know it's beyond frustrating and heartbreaking to keep getting put off when you have your heart and mind set on something. I think I've just been feeling reflective lately and trying to find meaning in things. I have no doubts you will find your way to mommy hood . I used to tell myself "it's not IF, just WHEN." xx


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## Vonn

gingmg--I am so sorry about your grandmother. It's never easy to lose someone dear to us, even if s/he lived a long life, so take care. Exciting news about upcoming FET, can't wait to see it work for you!

No worries & no apology needed. It's good to have a voice of postivity/calm/not looking on the negative side of things in this process. That's part of what I love about BnB. I appreciate your interest and support! I have the Qi breathing class tonight, it's just one class for an hour and a half. I'll let you know if I learn any awesome tips.

RE: lining--Do you know you have lining problems and you are ptrying to be proactive leading up to FET? I looked into this at one because I thought I had a really crappy lining because my AF is so short/light. Turns out I don't have lining issues, just clotty AF which means flow is lighter. Anyway, I added rasp leaf tea (also just for overall hormone balancing), pomegranate juice, yoga poses like legs up the wall to stim blood flow, and some abdominal massage for the same reason. 

AFM--even though the ultrasound showed all systems a-go for ovulation, my LH level was not very high, indicating ov was not imminent. Yesterday my nurse called and told me to take one shot of PIO to get a big surge of progesterone, which, when followed by a major drop in progesterone level, should induce AF. We chickened out last night and couldn't do it. I have been calling all the clinics I go to to try and get in to have a nurse do it/help us the first time. Call...wait for someone to call back...they have to ask someone else, so wait...then they have to call back...then transfer me a different location...repeat...gahhhhh!!!


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## gingmg

Did you get someone to give you the PIO shot? I never had to do that one, I bet that needle is intimidating. 

I think my lining is okay, just trying to think ahead.


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## gingmg

Vonn-are you doing your FET soon? I saw your other post in the AC section about antibiotics. What did you decide? I just had my appointment yesterday to talk about my FET and that's not part of my protocol. I hope everything is on track to transfer soon for you.


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## Vonn

Hi, Ging! I started to take them, in large part because my DH doesn't have the same apprehension and was feeling very uncomfortable with me taking the chance of infection. I had messaged my nurse with a bunch of questions and she got back to me saying I shouldn't bother with them, so I stopped. i don't think there's a problem with taking a couple and not the whole course (thus creating antibiotic resistance) since there wasn't actually an infection to treat. A couple days later I went to my integrative primary care dr I love and she was like, "Don't take those things unless you absolutely have to." Of course, I just started some new meds and one on the list is cleocin, another antibiotic. I didn't start it. I've checked in with the nurse about it, but she hasn't gotten back to me.

My transfer is next Tuesday. Woo hoo!! DH and I are turning it into a cross-country road trip. We will leave Saturday morning. First stop: Detroit. Second stop: Niagara Falls.

Ging--How are things with you? Gearing up for an FET anytime soon?

Briss--how are you doing? Has your cycle normalized at all? Any word on doing a natural IVF while still breastfeeding?


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## Briss

Vonn, Niagara Falls sounds dreamy :) I'd love to see it. re AB, i actually think it's a good idea for both partners to take a short 2 week course of AB at the start of a cycle. there could be lots of infections that can prevent conception but no one can test for everything. this is something i was going to do when I found out i was pregnant.I'd do it now but can't cos of BF.

we started our natural IVF cycle, had my first scan on day 9 and things looked OK but a bit uncertain. however, we had an honest discussion with DH this morning cos I have been very concerned about sperm situation and he finally admitted that he has been drinking excessively and is also worried about going through IVF now. we will probably have another scan and SA tomorrow but i think we both feel it would be wiser to put it off until January to give it some time to work on sperm situation. have mixed feelings at the moment. wasting two more cycles does not appeal to me but having gone through mc makes me worried about sperm/egg quality. but then there is no guarantee his SA will be any better in January.


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## gingmg

Von- glad you decided something you are comfortable with. Tues is sooo soon! And then off to niagra falls sounds nice!

Briss-Sorry to hear that your DH has been drinking again. Has he had any recent SA, maybe it's not as bad as you think? If the SA looks ok tomorrow will you still move forward this cycle?


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## Briss

really annoyed with my clinic, they did not respond to my day 9 results, i chased but there were no further instructions. I repeated bloods on day 11 and my LH is way too high so the surge is started and I am most likely going to ovulate on Monday so should have triggered today for EC Monday. we will see what fertility monitor says tomorrow but this cycle is a miss. there is a small part of me that feels relieved actually because of our sperm situation. My Dh was drinking a lot on my first IVF and it ended in chemical. I actually think we were lucky that time it could have been worse. feel deflated cos i was hoping to start in September and now it looks like Jan. also not happy with my oestrogen levels, much lower than usual (which could explain lack of sex drive after birth) but this may indicate not brilliant egg quality. i just hope this is temporary. I'll do another scan on day 12 just to see whether there is a dominant follicle ready to ovulate to have a better picture of my cycle. we should also get DH's SA results tomorrow so we should know what we are dealing with.


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## Vonn

Briss--it's exciting that you guys are starting again! But, of course that means the start of all the stress of ttc and working with a clinic far away. Lack of prompt communication is my chief complaint with my clinic. It drives me bonkers when I don't get responses. I hope the SA comes back better than what you might expect. Sorry for the lost cycle.

Ging--Anything happening on your front? Besides your crazy, busy life with a little one?

AFM--we have made it to Syracuse! Stopped in Detroit and in Niagara Falls. Niagara Falls was fun, but it has been really cold. And some snow to contend with on the drive today after crossing back into the US. Counted 8 cars in the ditch and one semi. Turns out when you are driving halfway across the country, it takes your mind off of what you are driving to do. I haven't been thinking about the transfer all that much, but now I am getting nervous and excited! How will I be able to sleep tonight??? Tomorrow morning we transfer one 4AA embie. It was REALLY hard to decide between one and two. I'm still not certain, but the decision is made and that is that. No regrets.


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## Briss

vonn, I'm keeping erything crossed for your transfer to go well. lots of baby dust, best of luck!!


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## gingmg

Vonn- thinking of you!!


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## Vonn

Thanks, ladies! Everything went really well. Had acu before and after, which was nice. I got a little teary at one point (during acu) just thinking about finally getting to this point, but overall I was totally calm. DH got a little more stressed out with some nerves. I have my blood hcg test on Dec 1st. I'm not sure yet if I'll test early.


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## gingmg

Congratulations Vonn on being PUPO! Hope you find some nice ways to spend this time.


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## Jazzbird

So happy you have got to this stage Vonn. I'll be thinking of you over the next few weeks xxx


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## Blythe

Hello ladies 

Not sure if you will remember me but i just wanted to pop on and say how happy i am to see that Vonn is PUPO. I have kept up with this thread and a couple of others on BnB but rarely post nowadays.

Vonn - i have everything crossed for you and will keep my eyes peeled for your updates x


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## gingmg

Blythe- HI! Was just thinking of you the other day and wondering how you have been? Miss you, this thread, and all the ladies. Hope you are well.


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## Jazzbird

Blythe! Have been thinking of you too. How are you? Miss this lovely thread too xxx


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## Vonn

Blythe--it's been a long time! I hope you are well. How's it going?

Just a quick update. Today is 9dp5dt and I had my beta this morning. I am pregnant! :bfp: :bfp: This is the first positive I have ever had in my nearly 4 years of TTC. I was so emotional when I got the news that I didn't write down my hcg number, but I think the nurse said it was 118. I can check it in my portal when it's uploaded. I'll go back on Saturday to check the doubling rate. I know having that take-home baby is a long ways off, but I can't get there without this first positive. And the 22 yr old's egg helps reduce the miscarriage chances. I'm gonna let myself celebrate a little. :cloud9:


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## Briss

Vonn, what a fantastic news!! so happy for you! wishing you a very straightforward pregnancy and easy birth!


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## gingmg

Vonn- I'm so happy for you!!! This is the best news, I'm literally tearing up and laughing reading your update!! Best wishes for continued happiness and a healthy baby. You got this!


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## melly2

Hi Ladies,

It's been a long time since I've posted as well. You may or may not remember me. I decided to check in today as I often forget, but keep meaning to. 

Congratulations Vonn!!! That is exciting news! It's been a long time coming. Wishing you a happy and healthy pregnancy.

Briss, So happy about your first baby and that your trying for your second soon. I can sympathize with your frustration with the sperm count. Hopefully it's not as bad as you fear and you can proceed with a successful natural ivf cycle. 

Ging, great to see you on here! Hope you are going well.

Hope you all are doing well!

Attaching a photo of my baby. Well, no longer a baby almost a 2 year old toddler. Welp! It goes too fast! :cry:
 



Attached Files:







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File size: 41 KB
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## Blythe

Vonn -just incredible. I have been following your updates for so long and felt so confident all of your efforts would lead to this. What wonderful news.


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## Jazzbird

Massive congratulations vonn!


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## nobump

Congratulations Vonn wishing you a smooth pregnancy x


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## Blythe

I thought i would update on this thread - i realise i started posting here in 2012 although had started TTC a second child back in 2010.

I gave birth last Tuesday to a daughter after six long years ....it was an IVF OE pregnancy and i am now 44.5 so i feel exceptionally lucky. I think the reason i am pregnant is [not anything to do with my experiences with TCM] a good IVF lab but mostly just luck and persistence and being encouraged by my good friend Briss and you other ladies during my darkest times.


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## Jazzbird

Blythe - huge huge congratulations. Just wonderful news. I'm so so happy for you xxx


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## gingmg

Blythe- sooooo excited to read your update! Massive congratulations! So so happy to read this! So happy for you!


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## Briss

Blythe, you made me cry again :) I am just so happy for you!! as I am starting to TTC again you are now an inspiration for me and i am sure the thought of your daughter will keep me going in my dark hours to come. even though both our girls are a result of IVF, I am still grateful to TCM cos i met you and the other ladies through our shared interest and belief in TCM. without your constant support and positive messages it would have been so much harder on this horrendous journey. 

afm, had a chat with DH about his drinking again. this time it was a little easier to persuade him to give it up while we ttc. he is so in love with our daughter that he is actually open to the idea of having more children (provided they are exactly like her!) that's not what he was saying before but I'll take it. he switched to non alcoholic beer cos he still wants to have his social life. he is taking vitamins. we just need to get our sex life back on track and we might try again in a cycle or so (provided he has some live sperm this time). so 2017 here we come!


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## Blythe

Briss - you are right and reflecting back I take back my comments re TCM. Every single thing I did over the last few years led me to my cycle in march and to the conception of my daughter. Even the bloody on line spells, orange knickers, red bed sheets and putting a bloody elephant in the corner of my room. At the beginning of the year I posted an anonymous letter to my local vicar and ask that he say a prayer for me....maybe it was some of the things I have picked up from Chinese medicine....

I am so pleased to read about your DH and anticipate a fantastic 2017 for you and your family.


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## Vonn

Blythe--wow, what an amazing surprise! I am beyond happy for you -- congrats on the birth of your daughter!! :cloud9: What incredible toughness and resiliency you've shown. Online spells and an elephant in the corner of the bedroom...you really did try just about everything. Hooray for you, mama! :baby:

Briss--I'm so glad to hear DH is taking ttc more seriously and stopped the drinking. Men always seem slower to come around. 2017 is your year!

Melly--I love the pic of little Gretchen! She looks so happy...and those pigtails. So cute! She looking like quite the fashionista, what an adorable outfit.


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## melly2

Oh wow, Blythe!! Congratulations!!! What amazing news!!!

Vonn, I continue to pray for a healthy and easy pregnancy in these coming months. Thanks for the compliments of Gretchen. She is a little ham! 

I'm so happy to read good news and happy outcomes in recent years. We've all been through this journey, which has taken years. There were many dark days, but it's always nice to know there are women in your corner and we can all share similar stories and frustrations. I wish everyone a joyous and happy 2017!


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## Vonn

Melly--I second your sentiments; couldn't have said it better!

AFM--had my first ultrasound today at 5w2d. All they were hoping to see was the gestational sac and we saw it looking just dandy in the uterus. There was even a speck inside the gs, the yolk sac. Crossed another hurdle and grateful for it. :cloud9:


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## gingmg

Great news Vonn!


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## terripeachy

Blythe-huge congrats!! How did you hold that secret for nine months?! Kudos to you and I wish you and your family nothing but the best. Happy holidays!! &#10084;&#65039;


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## kits

Hiya ladies,

I know some of you won't come back & that I was only small part of this journey, but I think of y'all always. I never replied but when I saw Briss, Blythe & Vonn had their dreams come true I was so ecstatic.

We've all gone through some dark times, but the blessings in the end made the journey all the with while.

Ever since I had my little girl I've been wanting to be pregnant again. We have had a few financial issues though & OH having his anxiety/libido didn't quite equate to successful baby dancing. Could kill him sometimes!

And now, after 3 years were really struggling. OH & I are good but fertility seems to be on a steep decline. I'd almost settle for the mc's rather than nothing. My hormones are all over the place and cycles have gone haywire. I thought there was a chance it'd randomly happen naturally by now but nope. Just ridiculous cycles and more bfns.

We've started to discuss IVF & adoption, but I think it only makes sense to give TCM a go again. I really did enjoy it & it surely must have helped?

I did go to the doctor who have requested for some tests to be taken but recommended I wait for my next cycle to start, even though I feel like that will never happen.

Don't get me wrong I feel truly blessed I absolutely love my little girl, I'm over the moon with her, but I very desperately want to give her a brother or sister.

Here I go again, trying to #thinkhappythoughts


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## Blythe

kits said:


> Hiya ladies,
> 
> I know some of you won't come back & that I was only small part of this journey, but I think of y'all always. I never replied but when I saw Briss, Blythe & Vonn had their dreams come true I was so ecstatic.
> 
> We've all gone through some dark times, but the blessings in the end made the journey all the with while.
> 
> Ever since I had my little girl I've been wanting to be pregnant again. We have had a few financial issues though & OH having his anxiety/libido didn't quite equate to successful baby dancing. Could kill him sometimes!
> 
> And now, after 3 years were really struggling. OH & I are good but fertility seems to be on a steep decline. I'd almost settle for the mc's rather than nothing. My hormones are all over the place and cycles have gone haywire. I thought there was a chance it'd randomly happen naturally by now but nope. Just ridiculous cycles and more bfns.
> 
> We've started to discuss IVF & adoption, but I think it only makes sense to give TCM a go again. I really did enjoy it & it surely must have helped?
> 
> I did go to the doctor who have requested for some tests to be taken but recommended I wait for my next cycle to start, even though I feel like that will never happen.
> 
> Don't get me wrong I feel truly blessed I absolutely love my little girl, I'm over the moon with her, but I very desperately want to give her a brother or sister.
> 
> Here I go again, trying to #thinkhappythoughts


Hello Kits

i do very much understand where you are. I am still not sure how i feel about TCM....i sometimes wish i had turned to IVF sooner but there are so many encouraging stories out there. It gave me hope and that was just so important in keeping me moving forward to the place i eventually ended up :)....I had regular cycles so i cannot really recall any notable effects from acu/herbs other than on my finances. However, it does appear to have a really positive effect on regulation of cycles with some women as do certain herbs [vitex and so on...] so it may be just the thing for you.

It sounds like you are making some positive steps. I have to say we tried many crazy things but after the years of TTC we stopped having sex....i dreaded ovulation for the stress around sex so do appreciate the anxiety/libido thing. The IVF was a relief as i was dealing with frozen sperm so meant i could just focus on me. But IVF is an arsehole too....hopefully you will not need to go there.

Do you have a TCM practitioner that you have in mind?


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## kits

Hiya Blythe, it's great to see you!!! How are you & your LO doing? We're you thinking of trying for another?

I think a few of us had issues with the OH & sex, it's such a difficult thing to talk about IRL so it's such a relief being able to talk about it on here. Thanks for empathising. :flower: Luckily that has gotten better with us over the past few months.

I don't think I'm capable of going back to experimenting so many things, albeit I didn't try anything too extreme, but I'm a different person now & feel so blessed with my little girl. Who knows though, if it does take much longer then I will probably some more extreme methods...

After crying at the doctors office & hearing her say that I need to find ways to relax & be happy about conceiving I found myself researching acupuncture again.

I had a consultation with my previous acu Dr yesterday, along with my first session and I'm quite glad I did. I was seeing her for about 2 months last time when I got pregnant (initially started with a different Dr but didn't feel she was right for me).

We looked at my cycles over the last year, focusing on the last 6 months & I think I've been in denial as to how bad it had gotten. I had a cycle that was 57 days! Others that were 48, 44, 37, etc. & in random order, no wonder I was going crazy! She actually thinks I may have PCOS and now I'm beginning to think so too.

I'm now on CD 40, getting bfns but no period which makes it difficult to know what's going on :shrug:, so no Chinese herbs or specific treatment. Just had an overall well-being therapy with small massage, because I was on CD 44 when I had my pregnant bfp so can't fully rule ir out until AF shows her face. FF is on its 3rd guess at my ovulation so maybe I do have PCOS.

IVF is something we may look into further down the line, but will give this a go & then see what my blood results say. If it can help regulate my cycles then I will consider it a success.

Thanks for your reply, it's good to hear from you! Hugs!


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## mimi4

a few friends of my sis had acupuncture before and during IVF, and got pregnant.


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