# no vaccinations?



## tiasmummy

I have read up alot of info regarding vaccinations, not the info they give you at the gp i mean research online etc and seen/heard about the link with autism, and mercury (blood poisoner) as well as other horrific things in vaccinations including even chicks embryos *sick face* my babys due in just over 7 weeks and i cannot bring myself to inject this stuff into her! i think there are lots of mothers co-sleeping breastfeeding etc but the most natural thing of all should be surely to avoid toxins in a young child? i also have my own thoughts on conventional medicine in general i tend to go for alternative therapies myself and have strong beliefs in them (DD was conceived with help of reflexology) anyway has anyone on here refused vaccinations? (preferably in the UK) what response did you get from doctors/other people? how did you respond? and how well/healthy is your child without vaccinations?


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## LockandKey

I'm in the US, and DD is now 1 and has gotten all of the usual vaccinations. She never had a reaction to any of them, never got a fever or a rash or anything, so I figured I would continue with them. It is a bit late now, but I kind of wish I had put off her MMR, Chicken Pox, and Hep B shots. I think with our next child I will be putting those off for a while, but I will most definitely have them get vaccinations for the more deadly diseases. I tested positive for group strep b while pregnant and had a vaginal delivery, and even though I was medicated during the labor, there was still a chance she could get meningitis, I didn't want to risk loosing my child, so I had her vaccinated for that. The ingredients in the vaccinations may not be agreeable, but in the cases of pertussis, meningitis, and polio, especially since there has been a recent pertussis outbreak here in the US, I personally feel the benefits way outweigh the risks, but if you still don't feel comfortable with it then don't do it, and don't let anyone bully you into it either.


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## mommyof3co

I'm in the US and we do not vaccinate, my older 2 did have some vaccines up until about age 2-3 but nothing since then and then my younger 2 don't have vaccines. We tend to now share the info with most people, really my kids medical records are none of their business. But with close friends they do know and pretty much everyone is very respectful, especially after we speak about it because they realize I have done my research and I am just doing what I feel is best for my kids and I'm not just completely anti vaccine, I don't put them down for choosing to vaccinate, it's just something we disagree on but we don't attack each other we both just want what's best for our kids. My MIL doesn't really agree with it and has been passive aggressive about it, just like she is about everything, even stole a magazine from her drs office and gave it to me because it said "taking the fear out of vaccines" on the front lol. 

My kids attend public school and so the school nurse knows they aren't vaccinated as well. They are very healthy kids and have never had any of the diseases that we vaccinate for. We eat healthy and just practice good hygiene.


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## NDH

Its not an easy decision to make. My husband and i have been researching since I was pregnant and we're still not decided. I see the pros and cons of both sides.


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## TTCinBC

I had my DD vaccinated, but we may not with our DS when he is born. Bit our main reason is that my DH had a sever sever reaction to the first set of vaccines when he was a baby. He went stiff as a board for days(among other things) and almost died from complications. We're definitely going to be weighing the pros and cons of vaccines since for us there may be a huge risk. 

But my DH and my sister both have not had the majority of their vaccines and there has never been an issue with thier health nor with how they have been treated because of not having vaccines.

(Edit: my DD is not my DH's biological child)


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## tiasmummy

hmm thanks for all your opinions. it is a hard one to think about its just about weighing up the pros and cons i guess at the moment i am steering towards not having her vaccinated though and i dont think i'd tell many people as not many will support my views but oh well, shes my daughter.


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## albs

i won't go into my personal opinion about vaccinations, but just wanted to say something about researching something this important online. please remember that 'dr google' is not your friend! there is nothing and no one out there monitoring what people put on the internet. anyone can create a site about whatever they want, make it look legit and get people to support them. they can present information as fact when it may not be. 
i strongly support people researching issues such as vaccination, but please make sure you use reliable sources. if you want to google then use 'google scholar' as it contains only scholarly literature that can be verified and trusted. 
good luck with your search!


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## LockandKey

albs said:


> i won't go into my personal opinion about vaccinations, but just wanted to say something about researching something this important online. please remember that 'dr google' is not your friend! there is nothing and no one out there monitoring what people put on the internet. anyone can create a site about whatever they want, make it look legit and get people to support them. they can present information as fact when it may not be.
> i strongly support people researching issues such as vaccination, but please make sure you use reliable sources. if you want to google then use 'google scholar' as it contains only scholarly literature that can be verified and trusted.
> good luck with your search!

I agree with this, and actually I'd suggest reading the book written by dr. Sears, I've heard great things about it
https://www.amazon.com/dp/031601750...hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=b&ref=pd_sl_ir8l9306i_b


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## toby1331

My OH and I are currently discussing this. He has concerns about giving them. I'm not sure where I stand. I just picked up the book The Vaccine Book by Dr. Sears. It's been recommended by numerous people. 


What are TX exemption choices? I'm in CT and the only exemptions are based on medical issues or religion. If we go the no vaccine route I'm not sure how to handle it when our child goes into public school.


On a similar note: Three things are done at the hospital- hepatitis B vaccine, vitamin K shot and some sort of ointment (I can't remember the name) on the eyes for gonerrea. What did you do about those?


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## lovie

My mum decided not to vacinate me (in the UK) and I can't remeber what the reaction was as i was a small child/baby at the time but I went to the Dr as a young adult (early 20's) and requested they vacinate me, they treated me like shit saying why having you had the vacination... umm it wasnt exactly my choice! they gave me a couple of them but not rubella they didnt have it in stock, i had to go and get that done privatly. They had no record as to which vacinations i should have had so my advice is to keep your own record of the vacinations that you refuse and then when your baby is a young adult (prefereably before the age where they might be having sex for a girl because of the risk of rubella) ask them if they want the vacinations and if they do go with them to the Dr so the child doesnt have to deal with being treated badly by the Dr and you can take the brunt of that for them. 

I feel anoyed that I wasn't vacinated but I was an exceptionally healthy child, my mum also didnt like to give us medicine apart from alternative medicine but I was never extreamly ill and I am a well adult. It's hard to say because who knows maybe with vacinations and medicine i would still have been very healthy. 

The thing I would consider is your child is probably safe in the UK because so many other children are vacinated, I come from a part of the UK with a very alternative culture and unfortunatly there are cluster outbreaks of preventable illnesses ever once in a while. Also if you travel to non western countries with your children or if they choose to travel as adults it is something you need to reasses imo.

:flower:


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## tiasmummy

in my hospital they dont do the hep b vaccine. they do give vit k but im choosing to have that done orally. like your mum lovie im in to alternative medicine and i have no doubts in this i think im 90 % sure my child will not be vaccinated.


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## Feronia

Can anyone recommend some additional reading material on the subject of vaccinations? I'm currently reading Sears's Vaccine Book cover to cover, and although he's very pro-vaccine, it does have some helpful information. I do have some concerns about some of his sections, specifically his lack of comprehensive information on controversial ingredients, so I'd like to expand my reading on the subject before my baby is born.

I want to read a variety of scientific materials on the matter, both pro and anti vaccination, so any recommendations are greatly appreciated.


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## hapi2bhealthy

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE do NOT believe everything you hear on the internet!

I am what most people would call a granola crunching hippy- planning on cloth diapering (with old fashioned terries), as well as EC-ing part time, only ever eat (mostly) organic, fresh, home made, virtually sugar-free except natural sugars food, use second-hand clothing, wash with soap-nuts in my machine, breast feeding kinda gal. I consult a Natropath before a doctor and use natural therapies and vitamins before anything else. I also have done a LOT of research on the idea of vaccination. I am half way through a Masters in Special Education, which means not only do I deal with a LOT of children with Autism but also have to do very high end, correct research on the subject....

*THE LINK BETWEEN VACC'S AND AUTISM IS A MYTH*- I have even read "Mother Warriors", and I _cannot_ stress enough the importance of vaccinating your kids! Babies are now dying of Whooping Cough in areas that the disease was virtually non-exsistant in, and the benefit FAR, FAR outweigh the risks. It may _not_ be YOUR child that dies from something like Pertussis, but it may well be YOUR child that spreads it to a baby that DOES die. *THERE IS ALSO NO MERCURY IN VACC'S ANYMORE.* Again, this was removed- not because babies or children were getting sick from it, but because 'they' found a better stabiliser.

As a PP already stated, Dr Google is NOT a great source of information- it takes a keen, trained eye to sift through anecdotes to get through to the REAL empirical evidence- that is what you should be basing your opinions on. I in no way JUDGE anyone for choosing NOT to vaccinate- being a granola hippie I am 100% pro-choice in parenting, but I will be keeping my young baby away from ANY child I know that was never vaccinated until they are vacc'd themselves. Autism is a very complex GENETIC disorder (complex, not one or two genes, but many are suspected) and the incidence has NOT risen due to Vacc's- the diagnostic criteria has been changed and funding opportunities are BASED on the broad DSM criteria, so if you're worried about that mainly, please don't be.

I totally see your point about injecting your kids with unknown stuff though...I hate that part. But coming from someone who has a keen professional interest in Autism and being a granola cruncher, I believe the pros far, FAR outweigh the cons. I couldn't live with myself knowing if my child contracted one of the vacc'd diseases and passed it on.

Again, no _judgement_, but def URGING you to do it.


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## Waiting4bb

I don't live in the UK but I imagine things aren't too different here. Most people will get mad if you say you didn't vaccinate your child. Some doctors will refuse service if you don't get them. At the same time they can't force you to make that decision. It is totally your choice. I've heard some people get really nasty about the issue. I prefer to not even mention the fact that my child doesn't have them. As far as unvaccinated children go? I know several kids and young adults that never were vaccinated and their health is great. These families are very healthy though and eat mostly organic foods. I don't know a lot of people who haven't been though. I don't have a big problem with vaccines because I know they work. I just think some should be give later (such as Hep B) and I don't think all of them are equally important.


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## Waiting4bb

hapi2bhealthy said:


> PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE do NOT believe everything you hear on the internet!
> 
> I am what most people would call a granola crunching hippy- planning on cloth diapering (with old fashioned terries), as well as EC-ing part time, only ever eat (mostly) organic, fresh, home made, virtually sugar-free except natural sugars food, use second-hand clothing, wash with soap-nuts in my machine, breast feeding kinda gal. I consult a Natropath before a doctor and use natural therapies and vitamins before anything else. I also have done a LOT of research on the idea of vaccination. I am half way through a Masters in Special Education, which means not only do I deal with a LOT of children with Autism but also have to do very high end, correct research on the subject....
> 
> *THE LINK BETWEEN VACC'S AND AUTISM IS A MYTH*- I have even read "Mother Warriors", and I _cannot_ stress enough the importance of vaccinating your kids! Babies are now dying of Whooping Cough in areas that the disease was virtually non-exsistant in, and the benefit FAR, FAR outweigh the risks. It may _not_ be YOUR child that dies from something like Pertussis, but it may well be YOUR child that spreads it to a baby that DOES die. *THERE IS ALSO NO MERCURY IN VACC'S ANYMORE.* Again, this was removed- not because babies or children were getting sick from it, but because 'they' found a better stabiliser.
> 
> As a PP already stated, Dr Google is NOT a great source of information- it takes a keen, trained eye to sift through anecdotes to get through to the REAL empirical evidence- that is what you should be basing your opinions on. I in no way JUDGE anyone for choosing NOT to vaccinate- being a granola hippie I am 100% pro-choice in parenting, but I will be keeping my young baby away from ANY child I know that was never vaccinated until they are vacc'd themselves. Autism is a very complex GENETIC disorder (complex, not one or two genes, but many are suspected) and the incidence has NOT risen due to Vacc's- the diagnostic criteria has been changed and funding opportunities are BASED on the broad DSM criteria, so if you're worried about that mainly, please don't be.
> 
> I totally see your point about injecting your kids with unknown stuff though...I hate that part. But coming from someone who has a keen professional interest in Autism and being a granola cruncher, I believe the pros far, FAR outweigh the cons. I couldn't live with myself knowing if my child contracted one of the vacc'd diseases and passed it on.
> 
> Again, no _judgement_, but def URGING you to do it.

BTW they do still use mercury in vaccines. Just not very many of them.


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## tiasmummy

hapi2bhealthy if your child is vaccinated and therefore 'protected' from these diseases....what problem would you have with your child being around a non-vaccinated child? since they are 'protected' anyway what difference would it make? isnt that the whole point of the vaccine??? anyway besides that you wouldnt have a clue whether or not your child is in school or nursery with non-vaccinated children (im sure there would be at least one) and you would have no rights for their parents to disclose such information to you.


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## hapi2bhealthy

Waiting4bb said:


> I don't have a big problem with vaccines because I know they work. I just think some should be give later (such as Hep B) and I don't think all of them are equally important.

I know here in Australia they have taken out mercury, or replaced it with a similar compound. And I agree, not all are equally important.


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## hapi2bhealthy

tiasmummy said:


> hapi2bhealthy if your child is vaccinated and therefore 'protected' from these diseases....what problem would you have with your child being around a non-vaccinated child? since they are 'protected' anyway what difference would it make? isnt that the whole point of the vaccine??? anyway besides that you wouldnt have a clue whether or not your child is in school with non-vaccinated children (im sure there would be at least one) and their parents have no rights to disclose such information to you.

As I did state earlier, no judgement on parenting choices on my behalf so no-one needs to take the information I put up personally... 

But I actually don't have a prob with my kid being around un-vacc'd kids *AFTER* they're vacc'd (my own, I mean). A *young* baby, for eg, cannot be vacc'd against Pertussis. Thus, by school age, I won't really care. Unless I have a young baby again. I also avoid taking very *young* babies to indoor shopping malls and on planes due to the same problem. No, I am not a germ-o-phobe, in fact I don't really sterilise etc. But why risk exposing my child to something that can be and has been prevented in the past?
I _also_ have a right as a parent to decide whether or not to risk exposing my *YOUNG* baby to those diseases that could be lying dormant in an un-vacc'd childs system. Rubella, for eg, is another one I would not want my *YOUNG *baby catching. But by 2 yrs, my kids will have had a stack of vacc's so playing with non vacc'd kids won't be an issue. Anyway it's not like I plan on asking every person around me for vax certs, but it WILL come into play when choosing daycare for my baby or play dates before age 2 (which let's face it, are more coffee dates for mums anyway heh). 

And again, I stress that it won't be done in a 'judgy' way, I don't care it's your child, and would never wish ill on any child vax'd or not, just don't spread those germs to MY child before they have the chance to fight them off. The information I gave is based on pure scientific fact-not anecdotes, or wives tales, or urban myths. Hundreds of research papers have been written about this topic after many parents crying foul, and not ONE has found a link to anything especially sinister. Allergic reactions are something serious to be considered, but not Autism or heavy metal poisoning. I honestly am coming from an educated, "don't believe everything you read or your politicians" stand point, with nothing but world-wide healthy children in mind! I whole heartedly believe in eating whole foods, organic foods, natural foods, natropathic medicines etc etc etc...but science is not the devil and vax's have wiped out many diseases that killed thousands of beautiful children and I would be heart broken to see it start happening again, to even one child.

So don't get all uppity on me, I never judged anyone about it, I just gave the facts from a well meaning perspective. :flower:


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## hapi2bhealthy

Example...

https://www.google.com/hostednews/u...GJJFzG8cjSGGW3uDw?docId=N0015291341496415266A

At least if you choose NOT to vax, try to think about the contact your child has with other children who are _too young_ to be vax'd. Maybe something to consider if you choose not to vax- which is most certainly your choice.

EDIT: WARNING very confronting pictures, don't watch if you are sensitive to this. Very confronting.
https://sixtyminutes.ninemsn.com.au/stories/8259732/getting-the-point

While neither are scholarly articles, both make a point that the diseases we immunise against WERE the biggest child killers around- BEFORE VAX. I know being in the natural parenting section I am bound to be flamed for this but I think you need to see the other side of the story too- from someone who agrees with co-sleeping, baby led weaning, breast feeding, organic etc. 

Just think very carefully about what it is you are afraid of before deciding. :flower:


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## albs

hapi2bhealthy said:


> I know being in the natural parenting section I am bound to be flamed for this but I think you need to see the other side of the story too- from someone who agrees with co-sleeping, baby led weaning, breast feeding, organic etc.

this has come up before and i know there are some that won't agree, but i personally don't think it matters which section of the forum you're on, if you feel strongly about something you have the right to speak up as long as you're respectful and don't become personal. in this case it's the difference between saying...

'i believe that the decision not to vaccinate is wrong because...'

and 

'you are a bad parent for not vaccinating'

the first (which is how you're presenting your point of view) to me is totally acceptable, the second wouldn't be. in fact, i think it would be quite boring if everyone agreed on absolutely everything on here. what would people have to talk about?!


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## Chezzz

Just wanted to add - my best friend's son has has all vaccines offered so far for his age. 17months. 
She sent him to nursery with a rash the other day after a doctor advidsed it was just a viral rash.. she informed the nursery when dropping him off.. to let them know, she had to fill out a form etc. 
we go and pick him up. this rash has covered and spread across his body.. took him to out of hours doctors that night.. hes got measles. he had his jab 4 months ago.. So after taking him to nursery she could of spread it to anyone who's child has not been vax'ed.. 
also.. there has been an outbreak of measles in south east england recently.. 
and this is a boy whos had his jabs.. and luckily got it mildly compared to the young girl on the news who's in the ICU because of it.. 
so personally i will vaccinate my little boy.. but thinking about it.. its obviously not stopping him getting it totally.. :shrug:


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## discoclare

Waiting4bb said:


> BTW they do still use mercury in vaccines. Just not very many of them.

Mercury is not in any vaccine in the UK childhood vaccination schedule (and has not been for a long time). I appreciate that you are in the US and have far more childhood vaccinations than are given here, but the OP is in the UK so just to clarify.


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## lovie

It is also worth while thinking about where you live in the UK, for exapmple Totnes in Devon where I come from has just over 50% vacination take up rate which means that nearly 50% of kids have no vacination, having an unvacinated kid there would be a huge risk where as if you live somewhere when the majority of parents are a little more "mainstream" the risks would be much lower for your individual child. 

Also consider the very real risks of things such as rubella, my OH has an aunt who has no eyes because her mother had rubella in pregnancy.

It sounds like you are pretty much decided on no vacinations but i really really urge you to provide unbiased information (maybe book a doctors appointment) for your child as soon as you think they are old enough to make that decision themselfs.

in my opinion as an unvacianted child that wasnt my mothers decision to make, my mum is an amazing mum and i had a lovely childhood but I dont think her ideas should had had possible health effects for me and the other people around me.


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## Waiting4bb

discoclare said:


> Waiting4bb said:
> 
> 
> BTW they do still use mercury in vaccines. Just not very many of them.
> 
> Mercury is not in any vaccine in the UK childhood vaccination schedule (and has not been for a long time). I appreciate that you are in the US and have far more childhood vaccinations than are given here, but the OP is in the UK so just to clarify.Click to expand...

Hmm.. you learn something new everyday. Well then I apologize and I sure wish America would get smart about this too. :nope: Go UK!


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## Feronia

hapi2bhealthy, I am certainly not interested in reading any old information from the internet. What I'm asking for is scholarly, peer-reviewed articles and informed books on the subject from *both sides.* I have access to an academic database from when I was a grad student, and I work at a university so I can easily check out anything recommended. Again, I appreciate any recommendations!

Honestly, right now I am leaning towards no vaccinations. DH and I are both vegan and eat a really healthy organic diet, I plan on breastfeeding for at least 2 years, and my kid won't be going to daycare. Still, I want to keep reading before making a final decision!


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## Tallulah28

Feronia said:


> hapi2bhealthy, I am certainly not interested in reading any old information from the internet. What I'm asking for is scholarly, peer-reviewed articles and informed books on the subject from *both sides.* I have access to an academic database from when I was a grad student, and I work at a university so I can easily check out anything recommended. Again, I appreciate any recommendations!
> 
> Honestly, right now I am leaning towards no vaccinations. DH and I are both vegan and eat a really healthy organic diet, I plan on breastfeeding for at least 2 years, and my kid won't be going to daycare. Still, I want to keep reading before making a final decision!


Hi Feronia.... 

This is actually a C&P of a post i did a while back in response to somebody trying to find out whether to vaccinate for the MMR. I know it is exceptionally lazy of me to copy and paste but I have included some links in that post which you might find useful. 

Hope it's helpful :hugs:


------------------------------------------------------------------------


Hi there, 

I have worked in Public Health in a number of years and within the area of health protection. I haven't read the Dr Sears book myself but it seems to be highly recommended by others so i would give that a go 

If you want to have a look at different resources for vaccination then this website has a HUGE list of different places you can look for information/advice. All from reputable sources.... to allow you to make an informed choice. I really do believe people have to make thier own decision on this matter, but to do it by getting unbiased, correct information. 

https://www.hpa.org.uk/Topics/Infecti...latedWebsites/

Specifically the following links might be worth looking at: 


PATH - Childhood Immunisation
https://www.path.org/vaccineresources...munization.php

PATH - Clear Answers & Smart Advice About Your Babys Shots

Written by pediatrician and author Ari Brown, MD, this six-page handout addresses the concerns of vaccine-hesitant parents, including vaccine safety, autism, and alternative vaccination schedules.

https://www.path.org/vaccineresources/details.php?i=1265 

Path is "PATH (Program for Appropriate Technology in Health) is an international, nonprofit organization that creates sustainable, culturally relevant solutions, enabling communities worldwide to break longstanding cycles of poor health. Their Vaccine Resource Library offers a wide variety of high-quality, scientifically accurate documents and links on vaccine-preventable diseases and topics in immunization. In addition to resources developed at PATH, the library contains materials published by international leaders in public health, including the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, the World Health Organization, the GAVI Alliance, and many others."

Great Ormond Street Hospital - useful advice with a FAQ section. 
https://www.gosh.nhs.uk/parents-and-v.../immunisation/ 

Plenty of reading there for you - whatever your choice then i believe that it has to be the choice that is right for you and your child. 

I am pro-vaccination but don't believe in forcing others to do something that they choose not to, or judge people for deciding not to vaccinate thier children. 

The MMR scare in this country has left a lasting legacy and we are seeing a resurgance in measles because vaccination levels have dropped so low. Amazing that the study in question managed to cause so much panic in parents. 

Good luck with your choice 


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## Tallulah28

lovie said:


> It is also worth while thinking about where you live in the UK, for exapmple Totnes in Devon where I come from has just over 50% vacination take up rate which means that nearly 50% of kids have no vacination, having an unvacinated kid there would be a huge risk where as if you live somewhere when the majority of parents are a little more "mainstream" the risks would be much lower for your individual child.


Agreed.... The whole importance of immunisation is that there needs to be around an 80-85% vaccination uptake rate within a population to ensure that there is 'herd immunity' and for immunisation to be effective. 

This means that children who aren't vaccinated - the remaining 15-20% - are protected by the herd immunity effect by stopping the transmission of disease. It isn't able to transmit because there are not enough 'hosts' to carry the illness..... In order for immunisation to be effective there needs to be a high uptake of vaccination. The bottom line is that the more children who are vaccinated, the less chance there is for a virus to transmit and cause serious illness. 

There are areas of London where the immunisation uptake rate for vaccination is below 40% in some areas and there are frequent outbreaks within the community of diseases such as measles - which we had almost seen a disappearance of. 


However, I will put my hands up and say that i am pro-vaccination and i do work in public health... but i totally respect the wishes of people who choose not to vaccinate for whatever reason they choose - I do believe that they should have the right to do this with the right information to make a balanced decision. 

Good luck with your choice - i know it's not an easy one for some people. xx


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## mommyof3co

I haven't read through every post (yet) but I saw people talking about not wanting their young baby around kids that are unvax'd. You do realize that just because you aren't vaccinated for something doesn't mean you are carrying the disease around right? An unvax'd kid that is exposed to it is more likely to get sick therefore you know they have it. A vaccinated kid if they are exposed can still get it but because they are vaccinated will most likely have a milder form of the illness and it may not be obvious they have something as serious as say whooping cough. A lot of things like that are spread by vaccinated kids because they don't get it so bad and don't know they have it. So if you are worried about your kids getting sick before they are vaccinated you should be worried about ALL kids, not just unvaccinated ones.


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## hapi2bhealthy

Feronia said:


> hapi2bhealthy, I am certainly not interested in reading any old information from the internet. What I'm asking for is scholarly, peer-reviewed articles and informed books on the subject from *both sides.* I have access to an academic database from when I was a grad student, and I work at a university so I can easily check out anything recommended. Again, I appreciate any recommendations!
> 
> Honestly, right now I am leaning towards no vaccinations. DH and I are both vegan and eat a really healthy organic diet, I plan on breastfeeding for at least 2 years, and my kid won't be going to daycare. Still, I want to keep reading before making a final decision!

This makes me SO HAPPY to hear, honestly :flower: I feel if you can access the Uni's database and decide from there, being sure to evaluate the studies that are published- ie what is the sampling like? what are the measurement instrumnets? are the stat tests conducted the right ones for the results? main threats to internal/external validity?- then you are doing the best thing. All I ask is people conduct REAL research and not believe the popular hype they hear in our more natural parenting communities. By not sending baby to daycare and breastfeeding for two years makes your decision to NOT vaccinate should you come to it much more responsible, I feel anyway; for not only other peoples little ones but your own too! :thumbup:

Also, someone spoke about a little boy having measles despite the jabs- yup, this happened to me too actually, I had rubella and chicken pox despite the jabs. But the general medical consensus is that should a child still contract the disease AFTER the jab, it will not be vicious enough to kill them, which was common place before jabs were invented. Rubella sucked!! Hope that little one is feeling better...!


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## NaturalMomma

I'm in the US and we do not vaccinate our children. We vaccinated ds1 up to 18 months and he was having some bad vaccination related complications (confirmed by Doctors) and so we stopped at that point and did not vaccinate ds2 at all. We have lots of medical background in our families and we are comfortable with our decision to not vaccinate. We also live a healthy lifestyle of eating organic wide variety diets, lots of nature exposure, we believe most germs are healthy and are ok to be exposed to rather than washing hands constantly and trying to live in a sterile enviroment, we homeschool and my kids do not go to daycare. We do see other kids and adults often throughout the week and they are mainly unvaccinated as well.

We live in an area that has not had any vaccine preventable illnesses/diseases in a very long time, except for flu but even the flu package says on there that "it's not been proven to prevent influenza" (even though a lot of the community is actually not vaccinated and/or does not have their boosters up to date, we still haven't seen any VPD here and we are actually a pretty healthy community with what people believe in).

In all the research that I've looked at in the many years (I also have medical training through college) I do not believe that the only thing that keeps diseases down is vaccinations. I think it's a mix of things like good nutrition, clean drinking water, proper hygeine, etc.


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## Flake-y

NaturalMomma said:


> lots of nature exposure, we believe most germs are healthy and are ok to be exposed to rather than washing hands constantly and trying to live in a sterile enviroment

I totally agree! And most antibacterial sprays & things only kill the minor bacteria, which means the larger bacteria have less competition & become stronger & more damaging to the human body. I refuse to have anti bacterial stuff in the house! 

Although I am pro-vaccine, just my choice tho!


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## hapi2bhealthy

For any mums in Australia considering not vaccinating, just know that you are then not eligible for any child care rebates (unless it is because of allergy, with doctors proof and approval)- which pays mostly around 50% of your fees, and if you're considering day care you will not be allowed to register for most centers (if any). Something to consider if child care is on your agenda :flower:


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## amjon

We're still trying to conceive again (just MC our last 5 weeks ago), but I'm swaying towards not vaccinating. I know I will definitely not be following the "recommended" schedule if we do give any. I really think some of the health issues I've had are related to vaccines I received as a child (and I never even had the last MMR). I have personally seen the damage vaccines can cause and actually CAUSE illness and/or allow it to be spread to other healthy individuals.  I think it's a shame they are promoted as 100% safe and effective when they are far from it. Parents really should be able to weigh the pros and cons for themselves before deciding instead of having a government body making the decision for them.


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## staralfur

amjon said:


> We're still trying to conceive again (just MC our last 5 weeks ago), but I'm swaying towards not vaccinating. I know I will definitely not be following the "recommended" schedule if we do give any. I really think some of the health issues I've had are related to vaccines I received as a child (and I never even had the last MMR). I have personally seen the damage vaccines can cause and actually CAUSE illness and/or allow it to be spread to other healthy individuals. *I think it's a shame they are promoted as 100% safe and effective *when they are far from it. Parents really should be able to weigh the pros and cons for themselves before deciding instead of having a government body making the decision for them.

That's not necessarily true. The nurses and my doctor made sure we understood that there are risks, although small. They go over all of the known side effects, etc. 

The way I see it is, if my daughter became ill via something I could've vaccinated against, I would never be able to forgive myself. But it's definitely a personal choice. One of my good friends isn't vaccinating her baby and I think no less of her, and our babies will continue their 'play dates'.


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## hapi2bhealthy

amjon said:


> We're still trying to conceive again (just MC our last 5 weeks ago), but I'm swaying towards not vaccinating. I know I will definitely not be following the "recommended" schedule if we do give any. I really think some of the health issues I've had are related to vaccines I received as a child (and I never even had the last MMR). I have personally seen the damage vaccines can cause and actually CAUSE illness and/or allow it to be spread to other healthy individuals. I think it's a shame they are promoted as 100% safe and effective when they are far from it. Parents really should be able to weigh the pros and cons for themselves before deciding instead of having a government body making the decision for them.

A bit unrelated but so sad to hear of your miscarriage, I remember you being in first tri I think and I'm so sorry for your losses, you've not had an easy go of it :nope::hugs:


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## roomaloo

A bit o/t but obviously an unvaxed child can come into contact with a disease without necesarily contracting it, but can you come into contact, get no symptoms but the virus enters your system and your body fights it thereby getting natural immunity without knowing?


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## hapi2bhealthy

roomaloo said:


> A bit o/t but obviously an unvaxed child can come into contact with a disease without necesarily contracting it, but can you come into contact, get no symptoms but the virus enters your system and your body fights it thereby getting natural immunity without knowing?

With the diseases in vax's, you would have symptoms. You can actually still get the diseases WITH the vax's...eg I got rubella as a kid despite having had the MMR vax, so you can imagine how sick I WOULD have been had I NOT been vax'd. 
The diseases in vax's seem like small time problems now, because we have not seen the super bugs they once were before vax's came into effect- millions of children died from measles, mumps, rubella, chicken pox, whooping cough, polio...or were left with life long disabilities because of them. So usually, if you come into contact with one of the diseases, you'll show symptoms, because they are not a small issue for the body to fight (which is why vax's were developed in the first place).


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## mommyof3co

You can develop natural immunity without ever actually being sick with the disease. I didn't have MMR as a kid but I am immune to rubella and measles..and I've never had either....well at least I never got sick with either, I obviously was exposed in some way to develop the immunity.

ETA or maybe it was rubella and mumps I'm immune too? I can't remember for sure but I was tested and it was Rubella and either measles or mumps and I've never actually been sick with any of them.


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## roomaloo

mommyof3co said:


> You can develop natural immunity without ever actually being sick with the disease. I didn't have MMR as a kid but I am immune to rubella and measles..and I've never had either....well at least I never got sick with either, I obviously was exposed in some way to develop the immunity.
> 
> ETA or maybe it was rubella and mumps I'm immune too? I can't remember for sure but I was tested and it was Rubella and either measles or mumps and I've never actually been sick with any of them.

Thanks, I thought this must be the case especially if you have a strong immune system


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## amjon

roomaloo said:


> A bit o/t but obviously an unvaxed child can come into contact with a disease without necesarily contracting it, but can you come into contact, get no symptoms but the virus enters your system and your body fights it thereby getting natural immunity without knowing?

Yes, you can and you can also GET the virus FROM the vaccine (if it's modified live or is a killed that is done incorrectly and is still live) AND you can pass that virus on to others. You should NEVER get a vaccine when you are already feeling ill (if you plan on getting them at all) or allow your vulnerable child near a recently vax one as they can get the virus that is shed even if the vax child never actually catches the virus.


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## bubbles123

roomaloo said:


> mommyof3co said:
> 
> 
> You can develop natural immunity without ever actually being sick with the disease. I didn't have MMR as a kid but I am immune to rubella and measles..and I've never had either....well at least I never got sick with either, I obviously was exposed in some way to develop the immunity.
> 
> ETA or maybe it was rubella and mumps I'm immune too? I can't remember for sure but I was tested and it was Rubella and either measles or mumps and I've never actually been sick with any of them.
> 
> Thanks, I thought this must be the case especially if you have a strong immune systemClick to expand...

I agree. I'm immune to TB, no idea why as I've never had it or been around anyone who has had it. Have had 3 positive skin tests now though so have never had to have a BCG. Also a pp said that we're not always made aware of the side effects of jabs but you should be when/if you go along to get them. For all of my sons I was told about side effects and had to sign to say I understood them. I was also given the vaccine info leaflet to take away to read.

I'm generally pro vax myself, I understand the issues with them and see why others choose not to have them but I generally believe they have had only a positive effect on our overall health. So my son has had all his and my daughter has her first lot on Tuesday. Not to say I like taking them though. In fact I was in such a state when I took my son for his MMR (delayed until 15 months) that my mum had to come with me for moral support. I was pretty glad of it though when a measles epidemic came round 6 months later. Good luck with your choice X


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## Toms Mummy

We have vaccinated our child purely because there had been an outbreak of mumps in our local university and others around the country a couple of years ago, and a few students died from it. The outbreak was due to a non vaccination craze in the 80s which meant that these students effected weren't vaccinated but were then suddendly living within close proximity of each other.

Also, a 4 week old baby died in our village last year from whooping cough..... a disease which should have been eradicated by now but is showing it's ugly head again due to people not vaccinating.... she was too young to be vaccinated!.. Sad :(


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## Feronia

Whooping cough is scary, but what else is scary is that 81% of people who caught it in a recent outbreak had been fully vaccinated. Apparently it wears off.

(Source)
(and Source)


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## JleStar

Feronia said:


> Whooping cough is scary, but what else is scary is that 81% of people who caught it in a recent outbreak had been fully vaccinated. Apparently it wears off.
> 
> (Source)
> (and Source)

Agree 100 percent...want an eye opener people..follow the money..look up dr. Rebecca Carley..there has been a smear campaign against her for what she has said...dr. Mercola, dr. Viera schebiner. I went down that Rabbit hole to find that there is something sinister going on here. Anyone here follow dr. Oz? I love him, however he had a show where he 100 percent backed up vaccinations and implored parents to consider the great risks against vaccinating..then later I find an interview where dr. Oz admits his own children are not vaccinated. What is going on here? forget about autism and mercury...that is the wrong way to go.
Ask
What is in the vaccines?
Why is that in the vaccines?
Have vaccines ever been tested for efficacy And safety?
What is this compensation fund the government has for children harmed from vaccines? By the way only 2percent of families report adverse effects
What are the adverse effects? 
Did you ever link vaccines with cancer? Meningitis? Speech issues? ADHD.depression.ocd.chrons disease...why would you..your pediatrician only references a rash and fever. My point is that vaccines also pose a long term risk for other diseases and illnesses that may never be linked with vaccines..
I am a mom and at the moment am confused and saddened by all of this. I want what is best for my child. I did not want to give into vaccinating without being informed of the dangers and risks. Often times parents give their power away to the doctors who "know best." take your power back...look it up for yourself. Whatever you decide is your choice. Just make sure you know the truth and don't feel pressure from your pediatrician..whom by the way makes faster money injecting your LO with a vaccine in 2 minutes then an hour of talking to you a out preventative measures against disease..just a thought...ok finally finished!


----------



## tiasmummy

jlestar i know exactly what you mean! the same people that preach about vaccines probably arent vaccinating their own children! i mean, that just sounds like a conspiracy to me! doctors are just doing what they are told if you sked half of them what exactly are the ingredients in the vaccines they wouldnt know. Just because they have a degree doesnt mean they know whats best for my child!


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## Feronia

JleStar said:


> Agree 100 percent...want an eye opener people..follow the money..look up dr. Rebecca Carley..there has been a smear campaign against her for what she has said...dr. Mercola, dr. Viera schebiner. I went down that Rabbit hole to find that there is something sinister going on here. Anyone here follow dr. Oz? I love him, however he had a show where he 100 percent backed up vaccinations and implored parents to consider the great risks against vaccinating..then later I find an interview where dr. Oz admits his own children are not vaccinated. What is going on here? forget about autism and mercury...that is the wrong way to go.
> Ask
> What is in the vaccines?
> Why is that in the vaccines?
> Have vaccines ever been tested for efficacy And safety?
> What is this compensation fund the government has for children harmed from vaccines? By the way only 2percent of families report adverse effects
> What are the adverse effects?
> Did you ever link vaccines with cancer? Meningitis? Speech issues? ADHD.depression.ocd.chrons disease...why would you..your pediatrician only references a rash and fever. *My point is that vaccines also pose a long term risk for other diseases and illnesses that may never be linked with vaccines..*
> I am a mom and at the moment am confused and saddened by all of this. I want what is best for my child. I did not want to give into vaccinating without being informed of the dangers and risks. Often times parents give their power away to the doctors who "know best." take your power back...look it up for yourself. Whatever you decide is your choice. *Just make sure you know the truth and don't feel pressure from your pediatrician..whom by the way makes faster money injecting your LO with a vaccine in 2 minutes then an hour of talking to you a out preventative measures against disease*..just a thought...ok finally finished!

Bravo. You bring up some important questions to consider, and its excellent that youre doing your own research. I know, Im saddened by all of this as well; just a couple of months ago DH and I were 100% pro-vaccine since I had never bothered to research any of it. We both even have direct family members working for vaccine researchers, so it used to be a no brainer. Were still researching and learning new things every day, but we did finally decide not to vaccinate.

(I bolded the statements you make that I really like! Well said.)


----------



## JleStar

tiasmummy said:


> jlestar i know exactly what you mean! the same people that preach about vaccines probably arent vaccinating their own children! i mean, that just sounds like a conspiracy to me! doctors are just doing what they are told if you sked half of them what exactly are the ingredients in the vaccines they wouldnt know. Just because they have a degree doesnt mean they know whats best for my child!

Exactly, Tiasmummy...some doctors may not know all the ingredients..some may know them and be reluctant or angered to share them with you. I actually had a pediatrician ask me in a condesending way why I hadn't given my child the hep b vaccine in the hospital. I replied because I don't think my newborn will be having sex or sharing needles very soon. He was defintley frazzled. To go against the norm is to become open for ridicule...some doctors become annoyed when you think for yourself and don't necessarily follow what the AAP recommend.


----------



## JleStar

Feronia said:


> JleStar said:
> 
> 
> Agree 100 percent...want an eye opener people..follow the money..look up dr. Rebecca Carley..there has been a smear campaign against her for what she has said...dr. Mercola, dr. Viera schebiner. I went down that Rabbit hole to find that there is something sinister going on here. Anyone here follow dr. Oz? I love him, however he had a show where he 100 percent backed up vaccinations and implored parents to consider the great risks against vaccinating..then later I find an interview where dr. Oz admits his own children are not vaccinated. What is going on here? forget about autism and mercury...that is the wrong way to go.
> Ask
> What is in the vaccines?
> Why is that in the vaccines?
> Have vaccines ever been tested for efficacy And safety?
> What is this compensation fund the government has for children harmed from vaccines? By the way only 2percent of families report adverse effects
> What are the adverse effects?
> Did you ever link vaccines with cancer? Meningitis? Speech issues? ADHD.depression.ocd.chrons disease...why would you..your pediatrician only references a rash and fever. *My point is that vaccines also pose a long term risk for other diseases and illnesses that may never be linked with vaccines..*
> I am a mom and at the moment am confused and saddened by all of this. I want what is best for my child. I did not want to give into vaccinating without being informed of the dangers and risks. Often times parents give their power away to the doctors who "know best." take your power back...look it up for yourself. Whatever you decide is your choice. *Just make sure you know the truth and don't feel pressure from your pediatrician..whom by the way makes faster money injecting your LO with a vaccine in 2 minutes then an hour of talking to you a out preventative measures against disease*..just a thought...ok finally finished!
> 
> Bravo. You bring up some important questions to consider, and its excellent that youre doing your own research. I know, Im saddened by all of this as well; just a couple of months ago DH and I were 100% pro-vaccine since I had never bothered to research any of it. We both even have direct family members working for vaccine researchers, so it used to be a no brainer. Were still researching and learning new things every day, but we did finally decide not to vaccinate.
> 
> (I bolded the statements you make that I really like! Well said.)Click to expand...

Hello Feronia,
It has been a journey coming to this point. I too felt vaccinating was a "no brainer." it was just a complacent thing to do. I just figured someone out there would surely put an end to vaccinating if it was dangerous. It is the "herd" mentality. But I recommend and implore all parents who are reading this to take the time to just look at vaccinations closer. A great site that I recently came across is called Thinktwice. They site some studies, research and anecdotes of families affected by vaccines. 
By the way next time someone tries to make you feel guilty about not vaccinating, turn it around on them and ask them if the know all the ingredients In a single vaccine..if they do not know..ask..why would you have someone shoot up your child with some mystery foreign substance? Doesn't seem that responsible as a parent.


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## staralfur

JleStar said:


> By the way next time someone tries to make you feel guilty about not vaccinating, turn it around on them and ask them if the know all the ingredients In a single vaccine..if they do not know..ask..why would you have someone shoot up your child with some mystery foreign substance? Doesn't seem that responsible as a parent.

Kind of OTT, don't you think? Especially considering how many ladies in this thread alone have chosen to vaccinate their children and not tried to guilt-trip anyone who chooses not to. 

I may not agree with you but I'm not going to question your parenting. :shrug:


----------



## tiasmummy

JleStar said:


> tiasmummy said:
> 
> 
> jlestar i know exactly what you mean! the same people that preach about vaccines probably arent vaccinating their own children! i mean, that just sounds like a conspiracy to me! doctors are just doing what they are told if you sked half of them what exactly are the ingredients in the vaccines they wouldnt know. Just because they have a degree doesnt mean they know whats best for my child!
> 
> Exactly, Tiasmummy...some doctors may not know all the ingredients..some may know them and be reluctant or angered to share them with you. I actually had a pediatrician ask me in a condesending way why I hadn't given my child the hep b vaccine in the hospital. I replied because I don't think my newborn will be having sex or sharing needles very soon. He was defintley frazzled. To go against the norm is to become open for ridicule...some doctors become annoyed when you think for yourself and don't necessarily follow what the AAP recommend.Click to expand...

LOL!! this is exactly right, how else would you contract such a disease? its certainly not air born!!


----------



## JleStar

staralfur said:


> JleStar said:
> 
> 
> By the way next time someone tries to make you feel guilty about not vaccinating, turn it around on them and ask them if the know all the ingredients In a single vaccine..if they do not know..ask..why would you have someone shoot up your child with some mystery foreign substance? Doesn't seem that responsible as a parent.
> 
> Kind of OTT, don't you think? Especially considering how many ladies in this thread alone have chosen to vaccinate their children and not tried to guilt-trip anyone who chooses not to.
> 
> I may not agree with you but I'm not going to question your parenting. :shrug:Click to expand...

Hello Staralfur,
OTT? What exactly? My comment was intended for those who wish to call informed parents who choose not to vaccinate--irresponsible. If you trusted your doctor without looking into it yourself and feel confident with your choice then you should not feel guilty about a thing...its your choice! Now if you were to come at me and say, "You are an irresponsible parent for not vaccinating your child." I would say, "Do you know what they put in those things?" I don't think that is over the top. If you feel guilty you have to work that out yourself. Sometimes hearing things like "vaccinations are dangerous" hits the core of people because you made the choice to do it and now may feel regret. Parents may also be upset with healthcare providers who we entrusted in who are not fully disclosing the effects of vaccines. That's a lot to take in! Why would they intentionally do anything to hurt our LO's. IT seems cruel, right? Listen...all I know is from what I have read, researched and experiences. Your experiences may be different and I know that parents try to do what they think is best. All I am saying is to really actively research it yourself. Whether you like what you hear or not, knowledge is power..hey you may even choose not to vaccinate your next LO. The choice is yours. If you felt that was OTT then BRAVO! at least we are having a conversation.


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## NaturalMomma

Toms Mummy said:


> We have vaccinated our child purely because there had been an outbreak of mumps in our local university and others around the country a couple of years ago, and a few students died from it. The outbreak was due to a non vaccination craze in the 80s which meant that these students effected weren't vaccinated but were then suddendly living within close proximity of each other.
> 
> Also, a 4 week old baby died in our village last year from whooping cough..... a disease which should have been eradicated by now but is showing it's ugly head again due to people not vaccinating.... she was too young to be vaccinated!.. Sad :(

Whooping cough is unlikely to ever be eradicated, and even if that strain of whooping cough did, it is likely the disease would morph into a more serious one that we would not be able to vaccinate. Which has happened in the past with other illnesses/diseases (MRSA for example, which is resistent to medicines because of the over use of medicines trying to treat staph infections). Like a PP mentioned, whooping cough cases often happen in vaccinated people, it's not because people are unvaccinated. Most outbreaks that I have heard of in the US are also by vaccinated people. 

We will never live in a world of 100% vaccination. The simple fact is not everyone can even be vaccinated due to allergies, reactions, complications, age, etc. Also not all the things we even vaccinate for are serious. They can be in a small number of people, but for the vast majority they are more of a nusence than anything.

We have to remember that disease and illness, while unpleasent, is the worlds natural way of thinning the herd so to speak. Yes we can try to combat it with vaccines and medications, but new disesases and illnesses will just pop up. This will be an ongiong process as long as humans roam the earth. While I do believe there are some people out there that need vaccinations and medications, it is a little offensive to try to blame the continuation of diseases on those who have chosen not to be vaccinated.


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## dizz

The ONE issue I have with those who don't vaccinate is when they try to use that to score some kind of "mummy points" over those who did vaccinate. THAT pisses me off royally - because not only are they bashing those who did, but they're also riding on their coat tails of vaccinated children reducing the chance of epidemics of these diseases.

If you don't vaccinate - fine, all well and good - but don't use it as a stick to beat me as a bad mother with (people have done that in the past) because I did. Otherwise - your child, your risk, your choice.


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## lovie

NaturalMomma said:


> We have to remember that disease and illness, while unpleasent, is the worlds natural way of thinning the herd so to speak. Yes we can try to combat it with vaccines and medications, but new disesases and illnesses will just pop up. This will be an ongiong process as long as humans roam the earth. While I do believe there are some people out there that need vaccinations and medications, it is a little offensive to try to blame the continuation of diseases on those who have chosen not to be vaccinated.

But what if the member of the herd that need "thinning" is your premature/ill baby... what if you have girl child and dont get immunised against rubella and she goes on to have a disabled child that possibly needs "thinning" from the herd. It really really upsets me that people with healthy children say its fine for other weaker children to DIE because there are others stronger than them:cry:


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## roomaloo

I don't thnk she was implying that, more that it doesn't matter how many vaccines etc we develop we will not eradicate diseases


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## DukesAngel

In the beginning I was against vaccinating my child. But changed my mind once I gave birth to her and here is why - I know the anti-vaccine people will pick this apart.

1.) I can prevent her from getting a disease. In my mind, my job as a mother is keeping my child safe. A disease is a possible danger to my child and if I can avoid her going through it, then I will.

2.) If she lets say, gets chicken pox, she will get the disease, be sick for a bit, and then build up an immunity. Vaccines work the same way except I get to skip the sick part. There are some preservatives in them to keep the little virus' going until a jab goes in, but the human body process' them the exact same way that you would if you just come down with the illness. Future immunity is built on the existing virus in the body and the bodies ability to destroy and remember that virus. 

3.) I do not think that the small rise from the vaccine of a "possible" side effect is enough to sway me away from vaccinating. Any person can have a side effect that is lifelong and undesired just from having the disease itself without the vaccine. I do not believe the vaccines cause the horrible side effects. I believe that we have such a large network of vaccines being given that a larger proportion of people get the vaccines (thus the virus') and thus the reactions are larger. 

Or in other words, lets say we have a group of 10 people. 2 of these people are predisposed to having a severe reaction to the A virus. In one world, none of these 10 people are vaccinated. The A virus infects 7 of these people, neither of which are the 2 predisposed people. Nobody gets a severe debilitating reaction, but 1 person dies from the A virus. 

In the other world all 10 get vaccinated and the 2 people that were predisposed to the severe reactions get their severe reactions, continue living, and no-one dies. 



Now I know this isn't exact science here that I'm going over but this is the way I feel about the whole vaccine matter. I'd rather be in the group of vaccines than the group of non vaccines. 

Everybody is so tied up in the "risks" of vaccines, yet still eat genetically modified food, use weed killers in our yard, drive cars that shoot exhaust into the sky, and on and on. 

But I will never shun the parent that doesn't vaccine. I get it. I just don't agree.


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## blhanson1

x


----------



## NaturalMomma

lovie said:


> NaturalMomma said:
> 
> 
> We have to remember that disease and illness, while unpleasent, is the worlds natural way of thinning the herd so to speak. Yes we can try to combat it with vaccines and medications, but new disesases and illnesses will just pop up. This will be an ongiong process as long as humans roam the earth. While I do believe there are some people out there that need vaccinations and medications, it is a little offensive to try to blame the continuation of diseases on those who have chosen not to be vaccinated.
> 
> But what if the member of the herd that need "thinning" is your premature/ill baby... what if you have girl child and dont get immunised against rubella and she goes on to have a disabled child that possibly needs "thinning" from the herd. It really really upsets me that people with healthy children say its fine for other weaker children to DIE because there are others stronger than them:cry:Click to expand...

That is not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying that we will not ever be free of illnesses diseases that can damage us because new ones pop up all the time. You can vaccinate against whooping cough, for example, but there are other disesase we cannot vaccinate against and/or a new strain of whooping cough may be presented that is stronger and vaccine resistant. 

I have a child who cannot be vaccinated due to complications vaccinations give him. So I understand the fear. 



roomaloo said:


> I don't thnk she was implying that, more that it doesn't matter how many vaccines etc we develop we will not eradicate diseases

This is what I was saying :)


----------



## lovie

NaturalMomma said:


> lovie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NaturalMomma said:
> 
> 
> We have to remember that disease and illness, while unpleasent, is the worlds natural way of thinning the herd so to speak. Yes we can try to combat it with vaccines and medications, but new disesases and illnesses will just pop up. This will be an ongiong process as long as humans roam the earth. While I do believe there are some people out there that need vaccinations and medications, it is a little offensive to try to blame the continuation of diseases on those who have chosen not to be vaccinated.
> 
> But what if the member of the herd that need "thinning" is your premature/ill baby... what if you have girl child and dont get immunised against rubella and she goes on to have a disabled child that possibly needs "thinning" from the herd. It really really upsets me that people with healthy children say its fine for other weaker children to DIE because there are others stronger than them:cry:Click to expand...
> 
> That is not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying that we will not ever be free of illnesses diseases that can damage us because new ones pop up all the time. You can vaccinate against whooping cough, for example, but there are other disesase we cannot vaccinate against and/or a new strain of whooping cough may be presented that is stronger and vaccine resistant.
> 
> I have a child who cannot be vaccinated due to complications vaccinations give him. So I understand the fear.Click to expand...

 I understand that humans will neer be disease free but I'd don't understand why people who can wouldnt vaccinate against the ones they can. 

The way I see it is if you wear a crash helmet on your bike you may still die in a crash because your lung may be punctured or your neck broken.. but it doesnt mean you should just not wear the helmet because it doesn't protect against all possible injury only some possible injury.

Some people in the world are weaker than others for many reasons I think it is our duty to protect them as much as we can rather than just thinking oh well if my child gives a child with cancer measels and they die it's just thinning the heard. I understand a child with the vaccine can still catch measels but at least if they do catch it and pass it onto a vulnerable child then the parent has done everything they can to avoid that happening.


----------



## NaturalMomma

lovie said:


> NaturalMomma said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> lovie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NaturalMomma said:
> 
> 
> We have to remember that disease and illness, while unpleasent, is the worlds natural way of thinning the herd so to speak. Yes we can try to combat it with vaccines and medications, but new disesases and illnesses will just pop up. This will be an ongiong process as long as humans roam the earth. While I do believe there are some people out there that need vaccinations and medications, it is a little offensive to try to blame the continuation of diseases on those who have chosen not to be vaccinated.
> 
> But what if the member of the herd that need "thinning" is your premature/ill baby... what if you have girl child and dont get immunised against rubella and she goes on to have a disabled child that possibly needs "thinning" from the herd. It really really upsets me that people with healthy children say its fine for other weaker children to DIE because there are others stronger than them:cry:Click to expand...
> 
> That is not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying that we will not ever be free of illnesses diseases that can damage us because new ones pop up all the time. You can vaccinate against whooping cough, for example, but there are other disesase we cannot vaccinate against and/or a new strain of whooping cough may be presented that is stronger and vaccine resistant.
> 
> I have a child who cannot be vaccinated due to complications vaccinations give him. So I understand the fear.Click to expand...
> 
> I understand that humans will neer be disease free but I'd don't understand why people who can wouldnt vaccinate against the ones they can.
> 
> The way I see it is if you wear a crash helmet on your bike you may still die in a crash because your lung may be punctured or your neck broken.. but it doesnt mean you should just not wear the helmet because it doesn't protect against all possible injury only some possible injury.
> 
> Some people in the world are weaker than others for many reasons I think it is our duty to protect them as much as we can rather than just thinking *oh well if my child gives a child with cancer measels and they die it's just thinning the heard.* I understand a child with the vaccine can still catch measels but at least if they do catch it and pass it onto a vulnerable child then the parent has done everything they can to avoid that happening.Click to expand...

To the bolded, I know a lot of mothers who do not vaccinate their children and none of them think that way. They do what they can to protect their child AND other children. I can help protect other kids by making sure my children stay home at any sign of being sick, using proper hygeine to not spread germs, etc. A vaccinated person can still pass on the disease, and in fact, many of the cases with certain diseases ARE passed on by vaccinated people. The thing is when you're vaccinated most times you do not know you're carrying the disease, but if you're unvaccinated you do because you show symptoms of that disease and you stay home. 

Many moms feel the chemicals in vaccines are not worth the risk. Vaccines are not 100% risk free, they do come with some serious side effects that may even be more serious then the disease. Many of the vaccines we have are to prevent a disease that is mostly mild in most cases, except for rare cases. Chicken pox is a mild illness, for some kids it can be very serious, but for the vast majority it's not. The flu is another, and so on. 

I cannot protect all the children in the world, I can however start with my own, and that is what I do. In a perfect world we'd all look out for eachother, but until then I have to look out for my kids first. I will do my best to keep them healthy which in turn will keep other people healthy that we come in contact with.

ETA: I always find it interesting when someone says "if you have a healthy child why wouldn't you vaccinate".... Because they're healthy. It's like taking medication to prevent a cold when you don't know if you'd ever even catch that cold. Doesn't really make logical sense. If you look at the history of diseases that we vaccinate against, most of those were on the outs prior to vaccination. They probably would have been eradicated if we did not start vaccinating because some are live vaccines which means you get a mild form of the disease and it can be passed that way. So we're actually keeping some around most likely.


----------



## lovie

NaturalMomma said:


> lovie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NaturalMomma said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> lovie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NaturalMomma said:
> 
> 
> We have to remember that disease and illness, while unpleasent, is the worlds natural way of thinning the herd so to speak. Yes we can try to combat it with vaccines and medications, but new disesases and illnesses will just pop up. This will be an ongiong process as long as humans roam the earth. While I do believe there are some people out there that need vaccinations and medications, it is a little offensive to try to blame the continuation of diseases on those who have chosen not to be vaccinated.
> 
> But what if the member of the herd that need "thinning" is your premature/ill baby... what if you have girl child and dont get immunised against rubella and she goes on to have a disabled child that possibly needs "thinning" from the herd. It really really upsets me that people with healthy children say its fine for other weaker children to DIE because there are others stronger than them:cry:Click to expand...
> 
> That is not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying that we will not ever be free of illnesses diseases that can damage us because new ones pop up all the time. You can vaccinate against whooping cough, for example, but there are other disesase we cannot vaccinate against and/or a new strain of whooping cough may be presented that is stronger and vaccine resistant.
> 
> I have a child who cannot be vaccinated due to complications vaccinations give him. So I understand the fear.Click to expand...
> 
> I understand that humans will neer be disease free but I'd don't understand why people who can wouldnt vaccinate against the ones they can.
> 
> The way I see it is if you wear a crash helmet on your bike you may still die in a crash because your lung may be punctured or your neck broken.. but it doesnt mean you should just not wear the helmet because it doesn't protect against all possible injury only some possible injury.
> 
> Some people in the world are weaker than others for many reasons I think it is our duty to protect them as much as we can rather than just thinking *oh well if my child gives a child with cancer measels and they die it's just thinning the heard.* I understand a child with the vaccine can still catch measels but at least if they do catch it and pass it onto a vulnerable child then the parent has done everything they can to avoid that happening.Click to expand...
> 
> To the bolded, I know a lot of mothers who do not vaccinate their children and none of them think that way. They do what they can to protect their child AND other children. I can help protect other kids by making sure my children stay home at any sign of being sick, using proper hygeine to not spread germs, etc. A vaccinated person can still pass on the disease, and in fact, many of the cases with certain diseases ARE passed on by vaccinated people. The thing is when you're vaccinated most times you do not know you're carrying the disease, but if you're unvaccinated you do because you show symptoms of that disease and you stay home.
> 
> Many moms feel the chemicals in vaccines are not worth the risk. Vaccines are not 100% risk free, they do come with some serious side effects that may even be more serious then the disease. Many of the vaccines we have are to prevent a disease that is mostly mild in most cases, except for rare cases. Chicken pox is a mild illness, for some kids it can be very serious, but for the vast majority it's not. The flu is another, and so on.
> 
> I cannot protect all the children in the world, I can however start with my own, and that is what I do. In a perfect world we'd all look out for eachother, but until then I have to look out for my kids first. I will do my best to keep them healthy which in turn will keep other people healthy that we come in contact with.
> 
> ETA: I always find it interesting when someone says "if you have a healthy child why wouldn't you vaccinate".... Because they're healthy. It's like taking medication to prevent a cold when you don't know if you'd ever even catch that cold. Doesn't really make logical sense. If you look at the history of diseases that we vaccinate against, most of those were on the outs prior to vaccination. They probably would have been eradicated if we did not start vaccinating because some are live vaccines which means you get a mild form of the disease and it can be passed that way. So we're actually keeping some around most likely.Click to expand...

If you lived in a part of the world where there was a low level of vaccination and a high level of preventable child deaths would you vaccinate? 

will you give your children the choice to have a full set of vaccinations when they are old enough to decide.. say 11 or 12? because it all very well to make that decision as a mother but you are deciding not to give protection to your child when they can't make that decision themself.


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## NaturalMomma

lovie said:


> NaturalMomma said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> lovie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NaturalMomma said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> lovie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NaturalMomma said:
> 
> 
> We have to remember that disease and illness, while unpleasent, is the worlds natural way of thinning the herd so to speak. Yes we can try to combat it with vaccines and medications, but new disesases and illnesses will just pop up. This will be an ongiong process as long as humans roam the earth. While I do believe there are some people out there that need vaccinations and medications, it is a little offensive to try to blame the continuation of diseases on those who have chosen not to be vaccinated.
> 
> But what if the member of the herd that need "thinning" is your premature/ill baby... what if you have girl child and dont get immunised against rubella and she goes on to have a disabled child that possibly needs "thinning" from the herd. It really really upsets me that people with healthy children say its fine for other weaker children to DIE because there are others stronger than them:cry:Click to expand...
> 
> That is not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying that we will not ever be free of illnesses diseases that can damage us because new ones pop up all the time. You can vaccinate against whooping cough, for example, but there are other disesase we cannot vaccinate against and/or a new strain of whooping cough may be presented that is stronger and vaccine resistant.
> 
> I have a child who cannot be vaccinated due to complications vaccinations give him. So I understand the fear.Click to expand...
> 
> I understand that humans will neer be disease free but I'd don't understand why people who can wouldnt vaccinate against the ones they can.
> 
> The way I see it is if you wear a crash helmet on your bike you may still die in a crash because your lung may be punctured or your neck broken.. but it doesnt mean you should just not wear the helmet because it doesn't protect against all possible injury only some possible injury.
> 
> Some people in the world are weaker than others for many reasons I think it is our duty to protect them as much as we can rather than just thinking *oh well if my child gives a child with cancer measels and they die it's just thinning the heard.* I understand a child with the vaccine can still catch measels but at least if they do catch it and pass it onto a vulnerable child then the parent has done everything they can to avoid that happening.Click to expand...
> 
> To the bolded, I know a lot of mothers who do not vaccinate their children and none of them think that way. They do what they can to protect their child AND other children. I can help protect other kids by making sure my children stay home at any sign of being sick, using proper hygeine to not spread germs, etc. A vaccinated person can still pass on the disease, and in fact, many of the cases with certain diseases ARE passed on by vaccinated people. The thing is when you're vaccinated most times you do not know you're carrying the disease, but if you're unvaccinated you do because you show symptoms of that disease and you stay home.
> 
> Many moms feel the chemicals in vaccines are not worth the risk. Vaccines are not 100% risk free, they do come with some serious side effects that may even be more serious then the disease. Many of the vaccines we have are to prevent a disease that is mostly mild in most cases, except for rare cases. Chicken pox is a mild illness, for some kids it can be very serious, but for the vast majority it's not. The flu is another, and so on.
> 
> I cannot protect all the children in the world, I can however start with my own, and that is what I do. In a perfect world we'd all look out for eachother, but until then I have to look out for my kids first. I will do my best to keep them healthy which in turn will keep other people healthy that we come in contact with.
> 
> ETA: I always find it interesting when someone says "if you have a healthy child why wouldn't you vaccinate".... Because they're healthy. It's like taking medication to prevent a cold when you don't know if you'd ever even catch that cold. Doesn't really make logical sense. If you look at the history of diseases that we vaccinate against, most of those were on the outs prior to vaccination. They probably would have been eradicated if we did not start vaccinating because some are live vaccines which means you get a mild form of the disease and it can be passed that way. So we're actually keeping some around most likely.Click to expand...
> 
> If you lived in a part of the world where there was a low level of vaccination and a high level of preventable child deaths would you vaccinate?
> 
> will you give your children the choice to have a full set of vaccinations when they are old enough to decide.. say 11 or 12? because it all very well to make that decision as a mother but you are deciding not to give protection to your child when they can't make that decision themself.Click to expand...

My ds1 cannot be vaccinated no matter where we lived. He has serious complications including non-febrlie seizures. So it would not matter, because both can be life threating to him (vaccines and non-vaccinating in a country that has high rates of VPDs). 

My children will always have the choice to decide when they are old enough to understand if they want to be vaccinated or not. Just like I can decide to recieve vaccinations or not (I was not fully vaccinated as a child, and I do not have boosters). 

There are many other ways to protect my children from illness/disease than vaccination. As I've said before, vaccine preventable diseases were already on the way out before vaccines came into play because we were starting to wash hands, eat healthier and understand the body better. Many of the things we vaccinate against are not even dangerous, they are unpleasent yes, but for the vast majority of people they are not dangerous. My ds1 is much healthier now being unvaccinated then he was when vaccinated.


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## Feronia

NaturalMomma said:


> To the bolded, I know a lot of mothers who do not vaccinate their children and none of them think that way. They do what they can to protect their child AND other children. I can help protect other kids by making sure my children stay home at any sign of being sick, using proper hygeine to not spread germs, etc. A vaccinated person can still pass on the disease, and in fact, many of the cases with certain diseases ARE passed on by vaccinated people. The thing is when you're vaccinated most times you do not know you're carrying the disease, but if you're unvaccinated you do because you show symptoms of that disease and you stay home.
> 
> Many moms feel the chemicals in vaccines are not worth the risk. Vaccines are not 100% risk free, they do come with some serious side effects that may even be more serious then the disease. Many of the vaccines we have are to prevent a disease that is mostly mild in most cases, except for rare cases. Chicken pox is a mild illness, for some kids it can be very serious, but for the vast majority it's not. The flu is another, and so on.
> 
> I cannot protect all the children in the world, I can however start with my own, and that is what I do. In a perfect world we'd all look out for eachother, but until then I have to look out for my kids first. I will do my best to keep them healthy which in turn will keep other people healthy that we come in contact with.
> 
> ETA: I always find it interesting when someone says "if you have a healthy child why wouldn't you vaccinate".... Because they're healthy. It's like taking medication to prevent a cold when you don't know if you'd ever even catch that cold. Doesn't really make logical sense. If you look at the history of diseases that we vaccinate against, most of those were on the outs prior to vaccination. They probably would have been eradicated if we did not start vaccinating because some are live vaccines which means you get a mild form of the disease and it can be passed that way. So we're actually keeping some around most likely.

Very well said! Lots of diseases are still spread by vaccinated people (like through vaccine shedding), and it's a misconception that you're fully immune to something just because you're vaccinated. I do not know any mothers either (myself included) who think that weak people "deserve" to be thinned by illnesses -- you're misunderstanding what NaturalMomma originally said. She was explaining that virues mutate and evolve like anything else; they typically affect those with weaker immune systems, so practically speaking, it has been nature's way of thinning out weaker people. That does not mean that it's a good thing that we should embrace. On the contrary, we should do what we can to protect our children and other children, regardless of physical ability. It's not that parents who do not vaccinate are inconsiderate of other people either. We consider our own children in that we are wary of the risk of vaccines, while we understand that vaccination does not mean that a child is 100% healthy and immune. We also keep our children home when they are sick like NaturalMomma said.



lovie said:

> will you give your children the choice to have a full set of vaccinations when they are old enough to decide.. say 11 or 12? because it all very well to make that decision as a mother but you are deciding not to give protection to your child when they can't make that decision themself.

I hear this point a lot in regards to vaccination. However, as parents, we are responsible for ALL choices we make for our children. I was fully vaccinated as a child and I did not have a choice. I don't resent my mother for vaccinating me, though, even though I would have preferred to remain unvaccinated in retrospect. It was her responsibility to care for me as she saw fit -- that's just how parenting works, no matter what we're talking about. Children can grow up and make their own choices of course, but the fact that children don't have a choice when their young cannot be used as an excuse to say "you're depriving them of a choice" because that's just the way parenting works.


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## HellBunny

Sorry to jump in, but i'm really on edge as to whether i should give Jayden the MMR booster when he starts school, and to even give Finley the MMR at all.
I've just bee diagnosed type 1 diabetes and i had my MMR jab 3 weeks ago (i didn't have it when younger but my GP advised me to) i've just been googling and theres some link apparently with the MMR jab and type 1 diabetes. Does anyone have any insight on this? I've also just had chickenpox as an adult (didn't have it as a child) so it could be that which sparked off the type 1 diabetes. Sorry if its slightly off topic as i haven't read all the replies but i thought this thread was appropriate, thanks x


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## NaturalMomma

HellBunny said:


> Sorry to jump in, but i'm really on edge as to whether i should give Jayden the MMR booster when he starts school, and to even give Finley the MMR at all.
> I've just bee diagnosed type 1 diabetes and i had my MMR jab 3 weeks ago (i didn't have it when younger but my GP advised me to) i've just been googling and theres some link apparently with the MMR jab and type 1 diabetes. Does anyone have any insight on this? I've also just had chickenpox as an adult (didn't have it as a child) so it could be that which sparked off the type 1 diabetes. Sorry if its slightly off topic as i haven't read all the replies but i thought this thread was appropriate, thanks x

Yes there has been reports that the MMR vaccine may cause diabetes or be a link there. I don't think it has officially been proven yet though.


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## Feronia

HellBunny said:


> Sorry to jump in, but i'm really on edge as to whether i should give Jayden the MMR booster when he starts school, and to even give Finley the MMR at all.
> I've just bee diagnosed type 1 diabetes and i had my MMR jab 3 weeks ago (i didn't have it when younger but my GP advised me to) i've just been googling and theres some link apparently with the MMR jab and type 1 diabetes. Does anyone have any insight on this? I've also just had chickenpox as an adult (didn't have it as a child) so it could be that which sparked off the type 1 diabetes. Sorry if its slightly off topic as i haven't read all the replies but i thought this thread was appropriate, thanks x

Yes, diabetes is listed as an adverse reaction to the MMR vaccine in the vaccine safety insert: https://www.merck.com/product/usa/pi_circulars/m/mmr_ii/mmr_ii_pi.pdf


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## cissyhope

My LO had his MMR jab Monday after delaying due to being so scared (he is 22 months old) something might happen to him,think i have built up such a fear,any way thank goodness he is alright.

I respect people that dont immunise but if every one in world decided not to,what do you think would happen? not having a go just asking? x


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## tiasmummy

cissyhope said:


> My LO had his MMR jab Monday after delaying due to being so scared (he is 22 months old) something might happen to him,think i have built up such a fear,any way thank goodness he is alright.
> 
> I respect people that dont immunise but if every one in world decided not to,what do you think would happen? not having a go just asking? x

well i honestly dont think everyone would be dying of measles mumps rubella or anything along those lines. if we had better ways of building our immune systems for instance healthy eating, breastfeeding and homeopathic remedies then we probably could resist those diseases without potentially dangerous vaccinations. just my opinion though, not fact! x


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## cissyhope

tiasmummy said:


> cissyhope said:
> 
> 
> My LO had his MMR jab Monday after delaying due to being so scared (he is 22 months old) something might happen to him,think i have built up such a fear,any way thank goodness he is alright.
> 
> I respect people that dont immunise but if every one in world decided not to,what do you think would happen? not having a go just asking? x
> 
> well i honestly dont think everyone would be dying of measles mumps rubella or anything along those lines. if we had better ways of building our immune systems for instance healthy eating, breastfeeding and homeopathic remedies then we probably could resist those diseases without potentially dangerous vaccinations. just my opinion though, not fact! xClick to expand...

 If we lived in an ideal world! but we dont.... people cant always BF,some people cant afford to eat healthy or afford homeopathic remedies? sounds like my kind of world though :flower:


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## mommyof3co

People also need to remember that vaccines are not the only reason for the decline in these diseases. It's largely due to improved nutrition, sanitation and medical advancements in treating these diseases so they don't just spread like crazy.


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## cissyhope

but if we stopped all vaccines and just relied on good nutrition and sanitation would that be enough? x


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## Dragonfly

I vaccinated, now regret it. William is fully done and Alex will not be getting mmr and both none after that. I never liked it. I will continue to breastfeed and boost their immune system. I have other reasons to which I wont go into as I dont fancy defending it for hours. But would like more info from mums who dont vaccinate.


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## cissyhope

Dragonfly said:


> I vaccinated, now regret it. William is fully done and Alex will not be getting mmr and both none after that. I never liked it. I will continue to breastfeed and boost their immune system. I have other reasons to which I wont go into as I dont fancy defending it for hours. But would like more info from mums who dont vaccinate.

 not sure if that was directed at me? but i just wanted to explore peoples opinions as i was so undecided myself,you dont have to defend yourself for hours :wacko: just your opinion would do... seems no one else has come back with an answer :shrug:


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## LadySlipper

After reading the previous posts I noted that some in the US are concerned about mercury in vaccines. I did some digging and found this site that has a break down of vaccines and which ones contain mercury (you have to scroll a little for the tables of vaccines). It is an up to date list as of this year. https://www.fda.gov/BiologicsBloodVaccines/SafetyAvailability/VaccineSafety/UCM096228#t1

Personally we will probably selectively vaccinate and keep on top of booster shots, so no surprise whooping cough in middle school. If I was vaccinated for it, I won't have much of an issue doing the same to my child. I figure it could only have gotten safer since I got the shots in 1976. Though I will still research, it's in my nature. But I view others such as flu & chicken pox as unnecessary. Was never vaccinated against either in my life and got chicken pox as a child. It was annoying and itchy but not life threatening. Ditto for flu (maybe I will when I'm old and gray :winkwink:). 

I agree with a pp that said to make sure you keep your own record of shots given and refused. Do not rely on a clinic or doctor. My records from childhood were lost through a system upgrade or something. Thankfully my mom kept records herself.

ETA: Here is another link to a listing of vaccines & mercury levels: https://www.vaccinesafety.edu/thi-table.htm


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## Dragonfly

cissyhope said:


> Dragonfly said:
> 
> 
> I vaccinated, now regret it. William is fully done and Alex will not be getting mmr and both none after that. I never liked it. I will continue to breastfeed and boost their immune system. I have other reasons to which I wont go into as I dont fancy defending it for hours. But would like more info from mums who dont vaccinate.
> 
> not sure if that was directed at me? but i just wanted to explore peoples opinions as i was so undecided myself,you dont have to defend yourself for hours :wacko: just your opinion would do... seems no one else has come back with an answer :shrug:Click to expand...

No no, I didnt even read the whole thread. So defo nothing aimed at you. I was undecided for a long time, and they have near all vaccines anyway (and I regret it). I think I have to read back to see what you mean , slightly confused.


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## Dragonfly

cissyhope said:


> My LO had his MMR jab Monday after delaying due to being so scared (he is 22 months old) something might happen to him,think i have built up such a fear,any way thank goodness he is alright.
> 
> I respect people that dont immunise but if every one in world decided not to,what do you think would happen? not having a go just asking? x

I see your question now. And I dont fancy answering it or probably will get head but off me but I have seen the damage with my own eyes more than once. This is why I regret it. I am researching now, I have been for a long time. I dont like what I see, but the truth hurts me. No more for me.


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## morri

Don't believe anything that you read online. it is not a factual library. Especially the link to autism has been disproven.


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## Dragonfly

I didnt read it online. ;) or in a book or off someone down the road etc .


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## morri

Oh that was directed at the OP ;)


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## Dragonfly

Though you said it was disproved, few days ago a family won in court proving it did do their son damage in causing autism. His name was Valintino, google it.


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## morri

The articles don't say anything about how it was proven-- the age is one where the first symptoms appear- and there are diseases (like encephalitis) which can damage the brain so that it is left as a similar to autistic brain-


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## Dragonfly

Well they got a lot of money for it. And so did several others. *shrug*. I choose not to do it for personal reasons I wont go in to. My oldest has all his mmr. My youngest wont be getting it.


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## Feronia

No, the link has not been disproven. The Wakefield study was found to be faulty so his article was retracted, and that's what people are thinking of when they say the link has been disproven. 

There has yet to be a major, unbiased study examine the issue, which is what I'm waiting for. People are still being awarded with vaccine damages over autism precisely because the link is still in question. Some vaccine inserts (like the DTaP) even list autism as a serious adverse effect.

The autism debate has no sway in my decision not to vaccinate, but I still dislike when people say "the link has been disproven" just because ONE study was retracted.


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## Dragonfly

https://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2012/06/25/mmr-vaccine-caused-autism.aspx
just so you know what I am talking about, It didnt sway me not to, This is recent news. It does state the vaccine was at fault that they where awarded for.


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## NaturalMomma

Feronia said:


> No, the link has not been disproven. The Wakefield study was found to be faulty so his article was retracted, and that's what people are thinking of when they say the link has been disproven.
> 
> There has yet to be a major, unbiased study examine the issue, which is what I'm waiting for. People are still being awarded with vaccine damages over autism precisely because the link is still in question. Some vaccine inserts (like the DTaP) even list autism as a serious adverse effect.
> 
> The autism debate has no sway in my decision not to vaccinate, but I still dislike when people say "the link has been disproven" just because ONE study was retracted.

Yes this. The study was determined to be faulty, not that the link was disproven. There is actually another study going on right now to see if there is a link. I forget who is doing the study, but it probably won't be done for another couple of years. 

The Autism debate does not sway my decision.


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## My_First

A quote from a comment from that article re MMR/Autism:

"This article is quite disturbing and seems to set a misleading tone, falling short of the standards I expect from the Independent. It starts off implying there is still some debate in the medical community about MMR/Autism which to my knowledge there is not (peer reviewed studies have failed to find any link). It then implies that the rise in autism (something difficult to get decent data for) from the 1970s onward might be linked to MMR; given that the MMR was introduced in 1988 in the UK this does not follow. Finally it seems to imply in the last paragraph that the Vaccine Damage Payment Scheme has paid out on MMR/Autism; to my knowledge they don't pay out for autism full stop."


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## Dragonfly

I didnt like the patient leaflet for dipheria. But the autism thing didnt sway me as I said my kids are done just wont be from here on in. Theres many reasons why. If any one here knows about vax damage pm me please , finding it hard to find someone to talk to about something and you know you cant ask on forums and facebook for debates.


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## Toms Mummy

My LO has had his jabs so far, I had all of mine, my siblings had theirs, all the mummys I know have had their and given them to their children..... they have all turned out fine.

I know there are lots of articles etc etc out there but at the end of the day, my personal, 1st hand experiences are what have helped me choose to vaccinate.

If like Dragonfly, I knew someone who was effected by the jab then I would definately have second thoughts.


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## Wobbles

For anyone who notices I had a little spring clean ;)

Onwards ... :D


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## cissyhope

oh ok my posts have been removed :haha:


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## RoseKitten

I'm very much into natural parenting. That said, I also love living in the modern world. :lol: We will be vaccinating our child(ren) because the diseases that they will be vaccinated against are horrifying. I just... I can't not vaccinating. Now, I didn't get the chicken pox vaccination as a kid, and ended up getting it as a teen. I'm not as concerned with those kinds of vaccinations, but I would rather my kid risk being sick for a few days from the vaccines than to risk death without. My husband is military, and is regularly exposed to countries that don't vaccinate, and I can't imagine what he's come home with sometimes.  I just worry what will happen if everyone stops vaccinating, ya' know? Right now, most kids who aren't vaccinated are protected by the "herd" being vaccinated. I'm just glad to live in a country where people have the luxury of both options. :)


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## Alegria

I'm going to bite my tongue a bit in replying to this thread, it is up to the parents of any child to make their decision but having seen the effects of some of these illnesses which have now been essentially eradicated in the developed world I will definitely vaccinate my children.


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## Danie1stbaby

I am so confused :( so tired of people telling me yay or nay.Sister said I was stupid not to get her vaccinated,and that she will not be able to enter public school without her shot records in the future...how true is that? What do I do? My daughter is 5 months old(as of sept 5th) My first child,so with all the researching ,I am still clueless.She has not been vaccinated yet,I am so afraid of making the wrong decision.She is a healthy baby and I honestly never heard her even cough.She has not been sick at all and is a smart healthy child so far.I was a vaccinated baby and had chicken pox twice and lived in the ER so much that mom n dad didn't have to fill out paperwork,they knew me by name.I was verrrryyyyy sickly! 

She is suppose to get updated on her vaccs tomorrow sept 10th
I told them I did not want her to get a million shots at once
I'm unsure if I am keeping the appt
I am so lost
What shots are best to get? I need some advice and guidance
such a bag of water...

I am crying my eyes out right now....
We are located in the U.S


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## RoseKitten

You'll have to see what's required in your state for public school. If you're concerned about tons of shots, why not just vaccinate against the worst of the diseases? Some of them are deadly, and some of them are life altering. As for chicken pox, they don't generally vaccinate kids because it doesn't (usually) cause much harm as a child. I got vaccinated when I was 16-17 (it was 3 shots) because it would have been much more dangerous for me to get pox at that age (and older). 

Here's the info for your state: https://www.immunize.nc.gov/family/immnz_children.htm


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## Courtney917

I separated my children's vaccines. Started out when they were 4 months old and gave one shot per visit. Waited to see if there was a reaction. The most I would give them is 2 vaccines at one visit and I never gave more then one with the MMR, DTAP or chicken pox. It's a personal decision but I do think vaccinating is important. I also NEVER gave my infants the Hep B vaccine, I waited until they were 2 to receive that series.


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## mommyof3co

Danie1stbaby said:


> I am so confused :( so tired of people telling me yay or nay.Sister said I was stupid not to get her vaccinated,and that she will not be able to enter public school without her shot records in the future...how true is that? What do I do? My daughter is 5 months old(as of sept 5th) My first child,so with all the researching ,I am still clueless.She has not been vaccinated yet,I am so afraid of making the wrong decision.She is a healthy baby and I honestly never heard her even cough.She has not been sick at all and is a smart healthy child so far.I was a vaccinated baby and had chicken pox twice and lived in the ER so much that mom n dad didn't have to fill out paperwork,they knew me by name.I was verrrryyyyy sickly!
> 
> She is suppose to get updated on her vaccs tomorrow sept 10th
> I told them I did not want her to get a million shots at once
> I'm unsure if I am keeping the appt
> I am so lost
> What shots are best to get? I need some advice and guidance
> such a bag of water...
> 
> I am crying my eyes out right now....
> We are located in the U.S


Every state is different, but in NC where you live there are religious and medical exemptions. I do not vaccinate and live in TX and my kids attend public school with a philosophical exemption...which isn't available where you are. But if it wasn't here I'd file a religious, though it's not against my true religion it is against my beliefs for my child so I'd file that way. If you don't want to vaccinate, and I'm not saying you shouldn't definitely do more research to make a decision you are most comfortable with, your child will be able to attend public school if you just do an exemption.


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## JleStar

Every state is different, but in NC where you live there are religious and medical exemptions. I do not vaccinate and live in TX and my kids attend public school with a philosophical exemption...which isn't available where you are. But if it wasn't here I'd file a religious, though it's not against my true religion it is against my beliefs for my child so I'd file that way. If you don't want to vaccinate, and I'm not saying you shouldn't definitely do more research to make a decision you are most comfortable with, your child will be able to attend public school if you just do an exemption.[/QUOTE]


Hello,
I was so happy to read your post. Just wondering if you can point me in the direction of research you have read or any good sources to look at in regards to vaccinations. I see that you have 4 children...are they all not vaccinated? You don't have to answer if it is too personal. At the moment my baby is still young and we have chosen not to vaccinate. I just wasnt sure about it and still am not and certainly didn't want to be pressured or bullied into it. Its just that not vaccinating isn't so popular here..friends and family look at me as if I has two heads and make me feel paranoid about my decision. However from what I have read I would feel more paranoid to vaccinate. Any insight or guidance would be greatly appreciated. :winkwink:


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## timetoshoot

my friend chose not to give her sons any vaccines apart from the mmr, she read a lot of books and she is very happy with her decision. I am not so sure about it.


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## RoseKitten

JleStar said:


> Hello,
> However from what I have read I would feel more paranoid to vaccinate. Any insight or guidance would be greatly appreciated. :winkwink:

May I ask why? I'm curious as I'm very pro-vaccination, and haven't read anything that would make me think otherwise. I'd enjoy reading more information if you happen to have it.


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## mommyof3co

JleStar said:


> Every state is different, but in NC where you live there are religious and medical exemptions. I do not vaccinate and live in TX and my kids attend public school with a philosophical exemption...which isn't available where you are. But if it wasn't here I'd file a religious, though it's not against my true religion it is against my beliefs for my child so I'd file that way. If you don't want to vaccinate, and I'm not saying you shouldn't definitely do more research to make a decision you are most comfortable with, your child will be able to attend public school if you just do an exemption.
> 
> 
> Hello,
> I was so happy to read your post. Just wondering if you can point me in the direction of research you have read or any good sources to look at in regards to vaccinations. I see that you have 4 children...are they all not vaccinated? You don't have to answer if it is too personal. At the moment my baby is still young and we have chosen not to vaccinate. I just wasnt sure about it and still am not and certainly didn't want to be pressured or bullied into it. Its just that not vaccinating isn't so popular here..friends and family look at me as if I has two heads and make me feel paranoid about my decision. However from what I have read I would feel more paranoid to vaccinate. Any insight or guidance would be greatly appreciated. :winkwink:


I won't go into too much detail as far as links to everything (it's not saved on this computer anyway) but also because every time I have posted it just gets torn apart and I get attacked. I will say I am NOT against vaccines, I'm against them for my kids at this point in their lives. I do not think because we don't vaccinate that others shouldn't. I fully recognize that there are risks by not vaccinating but there are also risks to vaccinating and I think really what it comes down to is what you feel in your heart is best for your children. Your kids could get sick and die from one of these diseases but they also could be killed by a vaccine or permanently injured. You have to read everything you can, look at all the risks and benefits and decide what risk you are willing to take. 

My older 2 are fully vaccinated up until about the ages 2 and 3. They are 7 and 9 now and haven't gotten any since then. My younger 2 have no vaccines..well my 3rd did have the newborn hep b because I was bullied into it and had JUST given birth and caved, I've regretted it ever since even though he had no side effects from it, just the fact that I caved and allowed them to do something I felt could be dangerous. We looked at the risks of the vaccines, how they are made, what ingredients are in them and what the risks could be those. We looked at the diseases, what are the chances they'll get them living where we do? What are the risks of the disease? What are the chances that if they got it they would have a severe case? What are the benefits of having the actual disease vs the vaccine..such as lifetime immunity or better immunity. What are the benefits of the vaccines? We looked at it from every angle and just decided that for our kids the risks of having the vaccines outweighed the benefits. We have very healthy kids that eat healthy, we promote good hygiene, they take vitamins, they are just all around healthy kiddos. 

And I hear the argument a lot that some kids aren't as fortunate and aren't healthy and can't have the vaccines and if they were to get the disease they would be more at risk than my kids and while I do understand that, I would never ask a parent to do something to their child that they felt put them in danger for the benefit of my child and I don't think I should be asked to do it either. We do our part by staying home when we are sick and teaching good hygiene. 

But I'm not going to go into more detail than that, I'm sure you understand though, I don't want to be torn apart because there ARE two sides. I don't feel like a debate today haha. Good luck in your decision though!


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## JleStar

RoseKitten said:


> JleStar said:
> 
> 
> Hello,
> However from what I have read I would feel more paranoid to vaccinate. Any insight or guidance would be greatly appreciated. :winkwink:
> 
> May I ask why? I'm curious as I'm very pro-vaccination, and haven't read anything that would make me think otherwise. I'd enjoy reading more information if you happen to have it.Click to expand...

Hello,
I just wrote you an entire long paragraph about the subject that has seemed to have vanished as I was trying to submit post..very strange and makes me wonder. The truth is out there, hidden under the layers of deceit. Some are afraid to look and see what they find.


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## RoseKitten

JleStar said:


> RoseKitten said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JleStar said:
> 
> 
> Hello,
> However from what I have read I would feel more paranoid to vaccinate. Any insight or guidance would be greatly appreciated. :winkwink:
> 
> May I ask why? I'm curious as I'm very pro-vaccination, and haven't read anything that would make me think otherwise. I'd enjoy reading more information if you happen to have it.Click to expand...
> 
> Hello,
> I just wrote you an entire long paragraph about the subject that has seemed to have vanished as I was trying to submit post..very strange and makes me wonder. The truth is out there, hidden under the layers of deceit. Some are afraid to look and see what they find.Click to expand...

I hate when that happens. :haha:

I ask, because some diseases, like polio, are not something I would ever want my child to run the risk of having, and vaccinating is the best option for that security. I just enjoy reading from both sides of the debate, minus the fear-mongering that both sides do, YKWIM?


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## veganmama

JleStar said:


> RoseKitten said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JleStar said:
> 
> 
> Hello,
> However from what I have read I would feel more paranoid to vaccinate. Any insight or guidance would be greatly appreciated. :winkwink:
> 
> May I ask why? I'm curious as I'm very pro-vaccination, and haven't read anything that would make me think otherwise. I'd enjoy reading more information if you happen to have it.Click to expand...
> 
> Hello,
> I just wrote you an entire long paragraph about the subject that has seemed to have vanished as I was trying to submit post..very strange and makes me wonder. *The truth is out there, hidden under the layers of deceit. Some are afraid to look and see what they find.*Click to expand...

exactly this! the truth IS out there hiding and you will be shocked at what youre reading once you find it


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## amipregnant

Im in the uk and have read as much info as i can find on vaccinations. I have decided not to vaccinate my son. The whole MMR problem in the uk is such a debate as research cannot be valid when there are hidden motives. I have read analytical studies on the results of tests and spoken with toxicology experts. We are never given accurate information as parents we have to decide what is right on the information we can find. I as in previous posts would say, contact the NHS (uk) and ask them for an ingredients list for vaccinations. if you are happy with them putting that in your baby then continue if not dont vaccinate. I dont have a problem with vaccination, i have a problem with being lied to by pharmaceutical companies so they can make more money. The MMR is a huge vaccine to give all at once. there is still the alternative of vaccinating singularly but this is hard to find (i have refused this too.) dont believe what you read on google get the facts.


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