# Was your late talker also a late reader?



## SarahBear

Violet wasn't a particularly early talker, but once she started, language quickly became a strength. She's 4 now and not reading, but has some really strong pre-literacy skills. She can also recognize a few words and when pushed, can sound out some simple words. I generally don't push her, but suspect that she'll learn to read with relative ease.

My son is 22 months and while he has said possibly more than 20 words, he really isn't talking yet. He has a few words he says on a regular basis, but mostly communicates with non-verbal means and signs. I wonder if reading for him will be a bit more of a challenge as well.

What's your experience with language development compared to reading development with your own kids?


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## lau86

I know my ds1 was a late talker, he was non verbal at two and picked up around 2.5. I'd say he caught up by 3 though. I don't know how other children are doing compared to him but his teacher said he was reading well at parents evening. He is nearly 5.5 and one of the oldest in his class


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## CaptainMummy

Paige wasn't early to start talking but she picked it up really quickly from about 18/19 months and was ahead of most of her peers by 2. 
She is right where she should be with her reading, which is great as she is one of the youngest in her class. She isn't in the top group for reading (some in her class are ridiculously good readers!) but she is at the same stage as the majority and the teacher is happy with no concerns.

eta both of my youngest were extremely quick talkers, especially dd3, so who knows how they will fare when they start school!


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## sabby52

Declan had words but didnt really develop his talking until he was about 3, he had to have speech therapy for a few months when he was 3-4 years old, his school dont start reading until half way through primary one, age 5 (reception in england) by December the same year, age 6 (so about 7-8 months) he was a free reader and could read anything. Now at 9 he has a reading level of 140 (the average for his age being 98).
Daniel was exactly the same as Declan, he had words but didnt develop his talking until about 3-4 year old, Daniel had intense speech therapy, one 1 hour session once a week for 6 months but his reading was average, he didnt read as quickly as Declan, but the difference between my two is that Declan loves reading Daniel didnt. Tbh I think reading is like marmite, they either love it or loathe it and how quickly reading skills develop depends on how much they enjoy it :) x


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## Eleanor ace

My DS had some speech delay and is a bit behind his peers with his reading in comparison to his peers, though he is one of the youngest in his class (but others who have birthdays around the same time are further ahead on reading levels). He was reading simple books mid way through Reception, so when he was about 4.5.
DD1 (3 years 9 months) was verbal earlier (not early but earlier than DS) and isn't reading yet but recognizes some words and quite a few letters and is getting along with simple decoding.


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## jd83

Both of my boys started talking after 18+ months, and didn't really pick up a lot of words until 20+ months. 

Jaxon also had 2 yrs of speech therapy, preschool and kindergarten. His reading skills are phenomenal. He and 2 other kids in the 1st grade are pulled out of their classes for a special reading group because they are so far above where the rest of the 1st graders are. 

Colton is 4, so reading isn't something I expect from him. I read to him. We do letter and number recognition exercises, since he's learning letters right now. Honestly, I don't think he will excel as much with reading as his brother. He'll probably be an average reader, just from the differences I can see in them as far as how easily Jaxon picked up some of these skills vs how much longer it's taking Colton. Which is perfectly fine. Everyone has their own skills.


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## embo216

My youngest is 4 next month and has extreme speech and language delay, he attends a specially funded nursery where he receives daily therapy to help him. I also had extreme speech delay and really didn't catch on with talking till nearly 7! I got some speech therapy but not a scrape on what he's lucky enough to receive and my reading and writing didn't struggle. I struggled on being able to convey what I meant but not understanding and picking it up. 

I have 2 older children who's speech was relatively on track and they haven't picked up reading quickly but now a few years down the line they're finally where they should be pretty much.

What I'm trying to say it's a mixed bag I think and really depends on the child. :)


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## lindseymw

Joshus was a late talker, he didn't start speaking until he was 2.5 years old. He had speech therapy for around a year.

His reading level is very high. He was reading before he started school and was put in the gifted list within a few weeks of starting Reception.

Jacob was a 'normal' talker and his reading level is very good (not as high as Joshua, he couldn't read when he got to school but has picked it up very quickly)


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## Midnight_Fairy

My son has hyperlexia so hard to tell. My daughter was slower at reading but early talker x


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## sequeena

Thomas started to talk at 18 months but only started talking more in the last year so 4/5. He can't yet read at 5.5 but can recognise certain words like his name, police etc. He will be a later reader as my cousins 4.5 year old has her first reading books from school and can read them.


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## SarahBear

It amazes me how early the UK expects kids to read. Here in the US, reading instruction doesn't start until 5 and even then, that's early for what research indicates is best. It amazes me that the UK starts it at 4! That's crazy!


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## sequeena

I'd never thought much of it as I've been completely fine starting that early but watching my little cousins learn that curriculum it worries how much they're expected to do. They have homework pretty much every night. Thomas is learning from a different curriculum so he's not expected to do anything near what they do. At home we barely do anything school related. He has no homework, and he won't even tell me what he does at school. I read to him and we do colouring and crafts but it's all focused on play and I much prefer it that way.


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## SarahBear

sequeena said:


> I'd never thought much of it as I've been completely fine starting that early but watching my little cousins learn that curriculum it worries how much they're expected to do. They have homework pretty much every night. Thomas is learning from a different curriculum so he's not expected to do anything near what they do. At home we barely do anything school related. He has no homework, and he won't even tell me what he does at school. I read to him and we do colouring and crafts but it's all focused on play and I much prefer it that way.

That's the way it should be for ALL kids, not just those with special needs. While there are some kids who can learn and pick it up fine, it's not developmentally appropriate to expect it at that age. I wish the school system could provide an individualized education for every student that focuses on what those students are developmentally ready to learn regardless of age. Yeah, I know it's idealistic, but that's a large part of why I plan to homeschool my kids. Right now, Violet is in preschool because that school is in line with my educational philosophy. She'll go there next school year as well and after that she'll be kindergarten age (In the US, Kindergarten is just the first year of regular public school). I think Violet would actually do OK in school, but we're going to at least skip kinder since it's become very developmentally inappropriate.


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## Natsku

Maria was a late talker (no words at all until 19 months) but caught up fairly quickly from by about two and a half. She's nearly 6 now and can't read at all except to recognise her name but that's not surprising as she hasn't started school yet. I've been trying to teach her to read in English using 'The ordinary parents' guide to teaching reading' but haven't got beyond the first two lessons yet. She wants to read (desperately!) but isn't ready to learn yet I think.

I think UK children learn far too young but English is a more complex language so its going to take longer to learn it compared to Finnish for example (they start learning in the 1st grade and most are fluent readers and writers by the end of the first term)


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## SarahBear

> An older study was carried out by Carleton Washburn, the famed Evanston, Illinois, educator. He introduced children to formal instruction in reading at different grade levels from kindergarten to 2nd grade. The children who were introduced to reading at these three levels were then retested in junior high school. The assessors didn&#8217;t know the grade at which each child had learned to read. Washburn found little difference in reading achievement among the groups. *The children who had been introduced to formal instruction in reading later than the others, however, were more motivated and spontaneous readers than those who had begun early.* Similar findings were reported in the Plowden Report in England, which compared children from the informal schools of rural areas with children who attended the more formal schools of urban centers.

https://educationnext.org/much-too-early/


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## SarahBear

Natsku said:


> Maria was a late talker (no words at all until 19 months) but caught up fairly quickly from by about two and a half. She's nearly 6 now and can't read at all except to recognise her name but that's not surprising as she hasn't started school yet. I've been trying to teach her to read in English using 'The ordinary parents' guide to teaching reading' but haven't got beyond the first two lessons yet. She wants to read (desperately!) but isn't ready to learn yet I think.
> 
> I think UK children learn far too young but English is a more complex language so its going to take longer to learn it compared to Finnish for example (they start learning in the 1st grade and most are fluent readers and writers by the end of the first term)

I think it being more complex is an argument to start later. It requires higher cognitive skills than a simpler language. I remembered some country starting formal instruction around 7 and having better results. Was that Finland that starts formal instruction around 7? I encourage reading with Violet and she goes to preschool, but I never put too much pressure on her. I do tell her that I think she's ready to learn to read if she wants to and I've had her decode simple words with help. However, we're missing that last piece of her feeling ready. And that's OK! She's only 4. I plan to go on like this until she's actually ready to learn to read... Well actually, I think she is learning to read. Learning pre-literacy skills IS learning to read. It's just the early stages. But anyway, I will not be putting her in kindergarten, so we can continue with this until she's 6, nearly 7. At that point, we can either continue as we are, or she can go to school. I would like to homeschool, but I have a feeling that Violet will want to go to school and would probably do well there. If not, then we'll just home school and she'll learn at her own rate.

(On a completely separate note, but linked by the country of Finland, I'm getting a Finnish Spitz this year and I'm excited about it!)


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## lau86

It's like with swimming, I started my son swimming at three and a year later he was still going up and down with his float. Now he is 5 he is making much better progress, I think more because he is older rather than his earlier experience. I might be wrong. They'll all catch up in the end, the older starters will get it quicker. It doesn't seem to be harming my son at the moment but he only gets one book twice a week. My friends daughter gets a new book each night and more homework on top. I wouldn't be happy to do all that


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## Zephram

It really depends on the child, to be honest, how early or late is appropriate for them to start reading and writing. My son is 4 and quite precocious and he would absolutely drink up learning to read and write at school right now. In NZ school doesn't start until 5 so he doesn't have the opportunity yet. We learn casually at home but he's very motivated by his peers and he would do well in school already. They are proposing to allow 4 year olds to start school if appropriate here instead of waiting until 5 and I would absolutely send him at 4 (they are proposing to leave it up to the parent whether they start at 4 or 5. I hope it goes through). He can't start school until his 5th birthday at the end of October and I think it's a total waste as he is ready now.


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## SarahBear

Zephram said:


> It really depends on the child, to be honest, how early or late is appropriate for them to start reading and writing. My son is 4 and quite precocious and he would absolutely drink up learning to read and write at school right now. In NZ school doesn't start until 5 so he doesn't have the opportunity yet. We learn casually at home but he's very motivated by his peers and he would do well in school already. They are proposing to allow 4 year olds to start school if appropriate here instead of waiting until 5 and I would absolutely send him at 4 (they are proposing to leave it up to the parent whether they start at 4 or 5. I hope it goes through). He can't start school until his 5th birthday at the end of October and I think it's a total waste as he is ready now.

I'm all for letting kids learn when they're ready. My issue is with forcing them to start when they're not ready.


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## Natsku

SarahBear said:


> Natsku said:
> 
> 
> Maria was a late talker (no words at all until 19 months) but caught up fairly quickly from by about two and a half. She's nearly 6 now and can't read at all except to recognise her name but that's not surprising as she hasn't started school yet. I've been trying to teach her to read in English using 'The ordinary parents' guide to teaching reading' but haven't got beyond the first two lessons yet. She wants to read (desperately!) but isn't ready to learn yet I think.
> 
> I think UK children learn far too young but English is a more complex language so its going to take longer to learn it compared to Finnish for example (they start learning in the 1st grade and most are fluent readers and writers by the end of the first term)
> 
> I think it being more complex is an argument to start later. It requires higher cognitive skills than a simpler language. I remembered some country starting formal instruction around 7 and having better results. Was that Finland that starts formal instruction around 7? I encourage reading with Violet and she goes to preschool, but I never put too much pressure on her. I do tell her that I think she's ready to learn to read if she wants to and I've had her decode simple words with help. However, we're missing that last piece of her feeling ready. And that's OK! She's only 4. I plan to go on like this until she's actually ready to learn to read... Well actually, I think she is learning to read. Learning pre-literacy skills IS learning to read. It's just the early stages. But anyway, I will not be putting her in kindergarten, so we can continue with this until she's 6, nearly 7. At that point, we can either continue as we are, or she can go to school. I would like to homeschool, but I have a feeling that Violet will want to go to school and would probably do well there. If not, then we'll just home school and she'll learn at her own rate.
> 
> (On a completely separate note, but linked by the country of Finland, I'm getting a Finnish Spitz this year and I'm excited about it!)Click to expand...

Good point, but that does mean that children will miss out on reading for longer, but if it makes them better and more willing readers then that's better.

Yeah they start teaching reading at 7 here (1st grade), there will be pre-literacy things in preschool the year before (Maria starts this autumn - she's very excited!)

I love Finnish Spitzs, they are freaking adorable!


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## SarahBear

Natsku said:


> Good point, but that does mean that children will miss out on reading for longer, but if it makes them better and more willing readers then that's better.
> 
> Yeah they start teaching reading at 7 here (1st grade), there will be pre-literacy things in preschool the year before (Maria starts this autumn - she's very excited!)
> 
> I love Finnish Spitzs, they are freaking adorable!

They'll miss out on independent reading, but there's no reason they would have to miss out on books. Violet has loved books since just before she was two and Leo is starting to like books as well. I think we need to focus on igniting a love of stories and interest in books and wait until individual kids are ready to read, rather than crushing the desire to learn and interest in books by forcing reading. Forcing reading before the right neural pathways are developed, can also result in kids reading in a less efficient way that then gets ingrained in them and can be difficult to change later on. Seven sounds like the perfect time to start formal instruction. Some kids would already be reading despite lack of instruction and that's perfect because they were given the chance to learn naturally. Others will need more support and they've been given a chance to develop more. And others may not even be fully ready at 7, and that should be considered fine too.


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## SarahBear

So, it seems that late talking doesn't necessarily correlate to late reading (very scientific sample, eh? ;) ), but I really do wonder if my son will be a late reader just based on overall patterns I see with him as well as family history. I think he'll probably benefit from homeschooling more than Violet when it comes to having the opportunity to develop at his own pace.


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## jensonsmummy

My eldest was very early talker. Cud of had a full conversation at . Hes now almost 7 and has only thislast term caught up wih the rest of the class with reading. His brother is 4.5 and has significant speech delay. He 'shud' be reading this time next yr going by school curriculum but very very unlikely


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## Natsku

I do agree Sarah, wish I had read to Maria more these last few years but didn't and now she's not so interested in listening to stories :( (still wants to read but refuses bed time story)


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## SarahBear

I'd keep working at it. My mom was a kindergarten teacher for a few years and she worked with significantly disadvantaged kids. Some of them didn't even know what books were and she had to teach them things as simple as "this is a book. You open it like this and there's stories inside." She started with kids like that and got them to the point of where they were interested in listening to stories. Also remember that bedtime isn't the only time to listen to stories. They can be worked into all kinds of different parts of the day. Another thing to consider is that stories aren't the only ways to enjoy books. You can find information in books. You can create journals or scrap books. Comic books are just as valid as novels. You can learn how to do something from a set of directions. Then there are also games, both board games and computer games that require reading. Stories are a good way to go as they encourage listening comprehension and the development of language and provide exposure to story formats, but reading itself can be addressed in many ways. Oh, do you ever go on long car rides? How about audio books in the car? Violet used to be really into them, but we only had a couple and my husband and I were going out of our minds listening to Pippi Longstocking for the millionth time. We also have Dr. Dolittle, but Violet wasn't as interested in that one... but we did listen to it about half a million times.


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## Natsku

I tried audiobooks with Maria but she got bored quickly. I'm hoping she'll like books more once she can read them herself.


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## SarahBear

Violet is a really auditory kid and language has always been a particular strength of hers. I don't think most 2 and 3 year olds would be obsessed with listening to chapter books in the car... But Just keep it light and expose her to different types of reading. She's still young.


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## morri

Natsku said:


> SarahBear said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Natsku said:
> 
> 
> Maria was a late talker (no words at all until 19 months) but caught up fairly quickly from by about two and a half. She's nearly 6 now and can't read at all except to recognise her name but that's not surprising as she hasn't started school yet. I've been trying to teach her to read in English using 'The ordinary parents' guide to teaching reading' but haven't got beyond the first two lessons yet. She wants to read (desperately!) but isn't ready to learn yet I think.
> 
> I think UK children learn far too young but English is a more complex language so its going to take longer to learn it compared to Finnish for example (they start learning in the 1st grade and most are fluent readers and writers by the end of the first term)
> 
> I think it being more complex is an argument to start later. It requires higher cognitive skills than a simpler language. I remembered some country starting formal instruction around 7 and having better results. Was that Finland that starts formal instruction around 7? I encourage reading with Violet and she goes to preschool, but I never put too much pressure on her. I do tell her that I think she's ready to learn to read if she wants to and I've had her decode simple words with help. However, we're missing that last piece of her feeling ready. And that's OK! She's only 4. I plan to go on like this until she's actually ready to learn to read... Well actually, I think she is learning to read. Learning pre-literacy skills IS learning to read. It's just the early stages. But anyway, I will not be putting her in kindergarten, so we can continue with this until she's 6, nearly 7. At that point, we can either continue as we are, or she can go to school. I would like to homeschool, but I have a feeling that Violet will want to go to school and would probably do well there. If not, then we'll just home school and she'll learn at her own rate.
> 
> (On a completely separate note, but linked by the country of Finland, I'm getting a Finnish Spitz this year and I'm excited about it!)Click to expand...
> 
> Good point, but that does mean that children will miss out on reading for longer, but if it makes them better and more willing readers then that's better.
> 
> Yeah they start teaching reading at 7 here (1st grade), there will be pre-literacy things in preschool the year before (Maria starts this autumn - she's very excited!)
> 
> I love Finnish Spitzs, they are freaking adorable!Click to expand...

In Germany they also start at 6-7 years of age. so I am not fussed about my lo 's reading yet.(also in germany they dnt expect the children to have any letter recognition skills other than their own name maybe so they start from scratch.

lo can name letters and the sound they make (single letters only) and can write some letters , and also on demand but hasnt got a clue yet that they actually put a word together. (She knows that certain worlds starts with certain letters but no further)

similar to her arithmetic ability which are also average for age, she can count things(up to about 15) but can't calculate things.
She loves me reading books to her, but no chapter books yet(Havent tried them) still plenty of single story books. most are like" the solstice badger" and " the tomten. or gruffalo books this sort of lengths. She likes pictures to look at so if it was a chapter one it would bneed pictures :haha:. She hasnt got a problem listening to me reading 10 books of aforementioned lengths to her in one sitting.


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## OmarsMum

Natsku said:


> I tried audiobooks with Maria but she got bored quickly. I'm hoping she'll like books more once she can read them herself.

Try to find books with her favorite tv or toys characters or something she's interested in like dancing or ballet or any sports she likes. My boy loves books but I noticed recently that he's into any book that has to do with army, ancient weapons, soldiers, etc. He likes historical and nonfiction books more than stories. 

When he was younger & was into Mickey club house & Thomas he enjoyed books with the tv shows characters. 

you can also make the book more interesting by taking her to choose & use some exciting words like wow this book is about so & so, what do you think will happen? 

Many of the early readers books are boring, and as she's not into books I'd just leave those to later.


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## jd83

OmarsMum said:


> Natsku said:
> 
> 
> I tried audiobooks with Maria but she got bored quickly. I'm hoping she'll like books more once she can read them herself.
> 
> Try to find books with her favorite tv or toys characters or something she's interested in like dancing or ballet or any sports she likes. My boy loves books but I noticed recently that he's into any book that has to do with army, ancient weapons, soldiers, etc. He likes historical and nonfiction books more than stories.
> 
> When he was younger & was into Mickey club house & Thomas he enjoyed books with the tv shows characters.
> 
> you can also make the book more interesting by taking her to choose & use some exciting words like wow this book is about so & so, what do you think will happen?
> 
> Many of the early readers books are boring, and as she's not into books I'd just leave those to later.Click to expand...

My son is really into nonfiction, too. I find it so surprising to see the difference in interests compared to myself, lol. I really can't stand reading most nonfiction books, so for him to pick nonfiction almost every time he's given the choice just flabbergasts me. LOL. Jaxon absolutely loves reading about different parts of the world, and animals. National Geographic type books are his favorites.


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## Bex84

My daughter had speech delay ( had words but not good clarity) she has struggled with reading. She turned 4 a month before started school. Shes now 5. She struggles with blending ( she shows signs of dyslexia and i am dyslexic so she has higher chance) its starting to click but have had to remind teachers she is one of youngest in class. Doesnt help books are boring. She loves books. It would be better to wait till children ready then they would not need to go through the stage of boring books which put them off ( i was a teacher and have taught a few children through different things such as moving countries and defered entry started later and they did better and had the ability to learn quicker). Natsku i would do games with her. I have discovered a site called nessy.com which has word games (meant to be for dyslexic children 5-8 years old but would work for non dyslexic children) it has games learning blending and strategy vidioes
My daughter absolutly loves and has learnt alot. There is free trial for a month. Its learning without knowing they are learning. Im so glad my ds will be oldest in year, my poor daughter is constantly judged against children who in some cases are neerly a year older and there are very few with birthday neer hers.


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## coolmommy

My nephew is 3 years old and not yet talking straight. Though he understands what other people s saying to him already. He also knows how to make us understand what he's saying but he's just conversing with one-two words. He's also too playful. Do we need to worry? How late is a late talker, really?


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## Bex84

Coolmommy if your family are worried I suggest getting him refered to speech and language list as its a long list. I got my daughter put on age of 3 and she only started speech theropy at 5. They will asses and soon tell you if issue. My daughter had disordered speech so we understood when others couldent as she found some sounds difficult ( we think may be dyslexic as i am and she shows other aigns to). She has come on so much with speech theropy. My 2 year old is now on list as he had a period of deafness due to ear problems. The speech theropists are great. He may be fine as speech comes on alot between ages of 3 and 4 and there is a wide range of what considered normal.


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