# Vaccines please read. thankyou. : )



## rosieposey

Hello everyone

I wasnt sure where to post this but figured this was the best place to start, i am not looking to start arguments FOR or AGAINST vaccinations i am simply looking for other peoples experiences.
I would like to know for my own research if ...

Any of you had children/babies contract whooping cough (or any other illness that babies are vaccinated for) even though they have been vaccinated ? 

Anyone who has experienced bad reactions to vaccinations ?

Any children/babies contract whooping cough (again same as first question) that were not vaccinated ?

Please include in answers if baby was Breast fed totally, partially or was formula fed and anything else that might be significant.

I would really appreciate any info anyone can give me to help me out with my research about vaccines, i know this can be a touchy subject and dont want to offend anyone so i am not looking for a debate.

Thanks for your help : )


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## deafgal

I never felt vaccines prevent illness or diseases, but to build up antibodies to prevent the severity of the symptoms from those illness and diseases. Both of my LOs (11 years old and 4 months old) have been vaccinated and they have not caught the whooping cough and such yet.

Both is/was EBF


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## Irish Eyes

The vaccine I'm most nervous about is the MMR. Not due to the autism link at all but through personal experience. My little brother was given the jab and it was awful. He became quite and unresponsive and gradually over the next week he just seemed to forget a lot of what he knew, eg. he stopped saying any words and would no longer walk. It took about 7 months of speech and physical therapy for him to catch up but he still seemed different. He was EBF until age 3. The more I look into it, the more personal stories I hear. 

I'm absolutely terrified of the jabs :-(


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## Dragonfly

My oldest is vax damaged , we know this. So didnt get the mmr and some others for youngest and lucky he is ok. My son changed after his mmr. My sister now 18 changed dramatically to. I don't like talking about it as its a sore point.


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## tryingg

I have not had my daughter vaccinated (she is almost 2) and I do not plan on getting her vaccinated especially the MMR and DTAP. She was breast fed and formula supplemented. She has gotten a couple of colds, but I feel she has a strong immune system


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## rosieposey

Thanks ladies for your replies, if anyone else has any experience with vaccine issues i would love to hear your stories, i am trying to gather as much info as possible.

Have read lots of info on the net etc... been researching vaccines for a long time now, my 2nd daughter is 6 months not vaccinated & i think this is the way it is going to stay considering all the info i have collected over the years, i have to admit the vaccines do scare me i think there is alot the general public just dont know.

Every bone in my body is screaming at me not to get her vaccinated and luckily i have the support of others, i thought it would be a good idea to get other peoples real opinions and experiences with the vaccines before i made up my mind completely though.

Anyone also know the complete ingredients list for the vaccines...
whooping cough, tetnus etc & the MMR. 

Thanks : )


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## Dragonfly

Look up vaccine inserts 
heres one, they are scattered about I did see them all on one site once. 
https://www.fda.gov/downloads/biologicsbloodvaccines/vaccines/approvedproducts/ucm101580.pdf
Remember you can get vaccines later on but you cant undo them once they done.


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## Dragonfly

Ah here is a site with all the inserts here. https://www.vaccinesafety.edu/package_inserts.htm something every parent should be allowed to see. I read labels of everything before I take to, but when I asked for this I was looked at wildly from my health visitor who I later found dosnt like vaccines.


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## Ashcolm

Rosieposie, what do you mean by the term "researching on the net". The net is a very big and varied place. What information have you consulted to reach your conclusion?


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## rosieposey

Thanks for the links i will have a look at those in a minute, what i meant was i have read reports from doctors/nurses/health professionals who have studied & researched vaccines and searched forum sites for peoples opinions and personal experiences with vaccines, i have also spoken with my GP and nurse and read some books.


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## LittlePants

My first 2 children had measles before the innoculation for it was due. (it was given much later then) They were not particulary ill with it. Both were breast fed for 12 months, until they rejected me in favour of a cup (which gave the milk faster - greedy little ***s!)
I have never been a one for over protecting cleanliness or anything else wise, and all my family have very strong immune systems. We are rarely ill.


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## aliss

rosieposey said:


> Hello everyone
> 
> I wasnt sure where to post this but figured this was the best place to start, i am not looking to start arguments FOR or AGAINST vaccinations i am simply looking for other peoples experiences.
> I would like to know for my own research if ...
> 
> Any of you had children/babies contract whooping cough (or any other illness that babies are vaccinated for) even though they have been vaccinated ?
> 
> Anyone who has experienced bad reactions to vaccinations ?
> 
> Any children/babies contract whooping cough (again same as first question) that were not vaccinated ?
> 
> Please include in answers if baby was Breast fed totally, partially or was formula fed and anything else that might be significant.
> 
> I would really appreciate any info anyone can give me to help me out with my research about vaccines, i know this can be a touchy subject and dont want to offend anyone so i am not looking for a debate.
> 
> Thanks for your help : )

1. No

2. No (mild fever and irritability IMO doesn't count)

3. Formula fed


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## Ashcolm

rosieposey said:


> Thanks for the links i will have a look at those in a minute, what i meant was i have read reports from doctors/nurses/health professionals who have studied & researched vaccines and searched forum sites for peoples opinions and personal experiences with vaccines, i have also spoken with my GP and nurse and read some books.

I would be interested to read anything from health professionals if you could post some links.


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## tryingg

rosieposey said:


> Thanks ladies for your replies, if anyone else has any experience with vaccine issues i would love to hear your stories, i am trying to gather as much info as possible.
> 
> Have read lots of info on the net etc... been researching vaccines for a long time now, my 2nd daughter is 6 months not vaccinated & i think this is the way it is going to stay considering all the info i have collected over the years, i have to admit the vaccines do scare me i think there is alot the general public just dont know.
> 
> Every bone in my body is screaming at me not to get her vaccinated and luckily i have the support of others, i thought it would be a good idea to get other peoples real opinions and experiences with the vaccines before i made up my mind completely though.
> 
> Anyone also know the complete ingredients list for the vaccines...
> whooping cough, tetnus etc & the MMR.
> 
> Thanks : )

I would suggest The Vaccine Book by Dr. Sears. Made my decision not to vaccinate easy, just my personal opinion :)


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## Rachel_C

My kids have been vaccinated and haven't had any diseases they've been vaccinated against. They haven't had any other diseases either, just a few colds and one horrible 24 hour tummy bug we all had!

No bad reactions, just the usual few days of irritability. My eldest got the fairly common measles-type rash after her MMR at 18 months - she got it on her shoulders which was just itchy but also some on her bum which got very sore, but I've never really seen proper nappy rash so I don't know how it compares. 

LO1 was FF and is now 3 years old, LO2 is BF and 13 months old (had everything on time apart from MMR which we'll do at 15-18 months). 

I've answered because you asked the questions! But I really don't think 'research' like this will tell you anything much. I can tell you a story of a boy who died because he was wearing a seatbelt. If you took that on its own, or with stories from other people who'd been injured by seatbelts, you would never wear one again! Same goes for vaccines - personal stories don't give you the bigger picture and are very biased. I wasn't going to reply because I didn't have anything interesting to say... how many people have done that? You would get a very different picture if everybody on BnB responded, I'm sure.


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## NaturalMomma

*Any of you had children/babies contract whooping cough (or any other illness that babies are vaccinated for) even though they have been vaccinated ? *
No, and my kids have been exposed to people with VPD (vaccine preventable diseases) such as chicken pox.

*Anyone who has experienced bad reactions to vaccinations ?*
Yes, which is why we do not vaccinate. ds1 had vaccine related complications after most of his vaccines up to 18 months when we decided to stop. He was formula fed.

*Any children/babies contract whooping cough (again same as first question) that were not vaccinated ?*
Nope

Both my kids are currently unvaccinated. ds2 has never been vaccinated. ds1 was formula fed and ds2 was breastfed. They both have only been sick once, with the mild flu, which was last year. DH is the one who brought home the flu and he was vaccinated against it (had to for his job).


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## rosieposey

Rachel_C said:


> My kids have been vaccinated and haven't had any diseases they've been vaccinated against. They haven't had any other diseases either, just a few colds and one horrible 24 hour tummy bug we all had!
> 
> No bad reactions, just the usual few days of irritability. My eldest got the fairly common measles-type rash after her MMR at 18 months - she got it on her shoulders which was just itchy but also some on her bum which got very sore, but I've never really seen proper nappy rash so I don't know how it compares.
> 
> LO1 was FF and is now 3 years old, LO2 is BF and 13 months old (had everything on time apart from MMR which we'll do at 15-18 months).
> 
> I've answered because you asked the questions! But I really don't think 'research' like this will tell you anything much. I can tell you a story of a boy who died because he was wearing a seatbelt. If you took that on its own, or with stories from other people who'd been injured by seatbelts, you would never wear one again! Same goes for vaccines - personal stories don't give you the bigger picture and are very biased. I wasn't going to reply because I didn't have anything interesting to say... how many people have done that? You would get a very different picture if everybody on BnB responded, I'm sure.

I have been 'researching' vaccines on & off since my first daughter was born, she is now 8. 
Personal experiences are actually very valid as far as i am concerned !
It is only now that my second daughter is 6 months that i have been looking in to it again, seeing as it concerns her very much i want to do the best for her.
Why the negativity? if you think it is pointless why bothering answering at all?


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## tryingg

rosieposey said:


> Rachel_C said:
> 
> 
> My kids have been vaccinated and haven't had any diseases they've been vaccinated against. They haven't had any other diseases either, just a few colds and one horrible 24 hour tummy bug we all had!
> 
> No bad reactions, just the usual few days of irritability. My eldest got the fairly common measles-type rash after her MMR at 18 months - she got it on her shoulders which was just itchy but also some on her bum which got very sore, but I've never really seen proper nappy rash so I don't know how it compares.
> 
> LO1 was FF and is now 3 years old, LO2 is BF and 13 months old (had everything on time apart from MMR which we'll do at 15-18 months).
> 
> I've answered because you asked the questions! But I really don't think 'research' like this will tell you anything much. I can tell you a story of a boy who died because he was wearing a seatbelt. If you took that on its own, or with stories from other people who'd been injured by seatbelts, you would never wear one again! Same goes for vaccines - personal stories don't give you the bigger picture and are very biased. I wasn't going to reply because I didn't have anything interesting to say... how many people have done that? You would get a very different picture if everybody on BnB responded, I'm sure.
> 
> I have been 'researching' vaccines on & off since my first daughter was born, she is now 8.
> Personal experiences are actually very valid as far as i am concerned !
> It is only now that my second daughter is 6 months that i have been looking in to it again, seeing as it concerns her very much i want to do the best for her.
> Why the negativity? if you think it is pointless why bothering answering at all?Click to expand...

Hello, I agree that personal experiences are MORE VALID than some research....if you have experienced it isn't that research enough to decide whether it's something you want or do not want to continue to do....I am not responding to start a debate I just want to add more of what I think is helpful input for you :) I was reading these yesterday and it blew my mind and made me stand more firm on my desicion...check it out. https://www.followingvaccinations.com/


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## Irish Eyes

I completely agree that personal experience means more, to me at least! If I'd just read about reactions to jabs then I would have thought of my usual reaction being "it couldn't happen to me". Knowing what happened to my brother makes it very real to me and it's a huge concern of mine. 

I struggle to stick up for myself sometimes, I got so much flack for not allowing LO to have the Vit K jab - in our families they just go along with whatever they're told & would never consider anything else so struggle to see why I'm questioning everything!


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## staralfur

It's the same reason surveys and questionnaires aren't really considered to be all that reliable in the world of research. You're relying on people being honest/unbiased, and also dealing with what Rachel said in that more people who have complaints/experiences are likely to reply. 

If you start a thread about adverse reactions to vaccines then of course you're going to get more replies from people who have experienced them. And if that's all you're looking for, no problem. But if you're looking for an accurate 'big picture', probably not the best way to go about it. 

Asking a vaccination question in NP is also asking for more non-vax responses. Again, not a bad thing if that's what you want. But if you're looking for answers from ALL angles, this would be better put in Baby Club or a busier/less specific sub-forum.


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## discoclare

1. No she hasn't had anything she has been vaccinated against (fully vaccinated to UK schedule).
2. No she never had any reactions.
3. She was BF to 8 months

Also she attends a nursery of nearly 80 children with 16 in her class so she is exposed to lots. She has had lotsd of colds but never needed a doctor visit or antibiotics. She's 2.


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## hanelei

1. My LO has never contracted any of the illnesses he has been vaccinated against.

2. He has never had any reactions other than slight redness on his arm after the second meningococcal jab- no irritability, no fevers. We opted to do mostly one vaccine at a time rather than several jabs (for example some people here will do the combined diphtheria, tetanus and whooping cough jab along with meningococcal and Hib) but we have done them all one at a time and I think that has helped. 

3. I am still BFing at almost 18 months.

Illnesses he has had so far are a few colds, roseola and one bout of diarrhoea.


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## mollyluvli

My children have never been ill with any vaccine 'preventable' illness. 
all 3 children NOT vaccinated.

Not had any reactions to vaccs as not been vaccinated.

.......................................................................................................
Just a few things i consider relevant about vaccinations.


Natural tetanus infection does not result in immunity, why vaccinate?
80% of whooping cough cases have been in vaccinated children
vaccination does not give your baby immunity against pertussis
Having the vaccine yourself & breastfeeding does not pass on immunity to your baby
Naturally contracting the disease yourself and breastfeeding DOES pass on immunity to your baby (herd immunity theory from pro vaccine groups answer this one please? ) 

There is no vaccine that can prevent all forms of meningitis
The meningitis vaccine was first given in 1994, that is only 16 years ago.
How are the vaccines tested ? as they cant possibly test them on real babies/people ? or can they ?
Pharmaceutical companies are paying out billions in compensation to parents of children that have had serious reactions including death to the vaccines.
Vaccines have been linked to SIDS, look it up read the facts dont take my word for it. the info is there.

Aluminium in vaccines & neurological damage. look it up.

The swine flu vaccine was introduced only months after the swine flu outbreak hmmm, come on people.

I respect parents personal decisions completely but i like to throw some info about to encourage people to do some research and not just accept what is told to them, the only person i would trust with my childs life is me so i need to know ALL the facts.


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## rosieposey

I had never considered the Tetanus vaccine, that has made me wonder and actually you are right about not being naturally immune, I might baffle my GP with that one. Does anyone know anything about the tetanus vaccine?


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## deafgal

These days, deaf babies are REQUIRED to have meningitis shots, and sometimes earlier, if they are getting cochlear implant surgeries. Because cochlear implant makes them more prone to meningitis


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## hanelei

"80% of whooping cough cases have been in vaccinated children" 
^^^ While some of the info you posted may be valid, mollyluvli, this kind of thing is very misleading and it's a simple misinterpretation of statistics. Of course more whooping cough cases are in vaccinated children- that is because vaccinated children far and away outnumber the non-vaccinated. Let me put it simply:

Take a sample of say 1010 children, 1000 of whom were vaccinated and 10 who were not. Imagine there is a whooping cough outbreak that the 1010 kids were exposed to, and 88 of those kids get it- 80 of them were vaccinated and 8 not. That means that 80% of those whooping cough cases were in vaccinated children! Where that kind of statistic is meaningless though should be obvious- if 80 out of the 1000 vaccinated children got an illness, even though it's 10 times as many cases as with non-vaccinated kids, that is still only 8% of them, whereas 8 out of 10 or 80% of the non-vaccinated children got it.

Now I have just taken figures out of the air to illustrate what I want to say, but it's an example of how people are often misled by statements like "80% of whooping cough cases are in vaccinated children".

I just want to highlight some of the other statements in the post:

"Natural tetanus infection does not result in immunity, why vaccinate?" This doesn't make any sense to me. My answer is- because the vaccine results in immunity, even if natural infection doesn't? There are plenty of statistics available to back this up.

"vaccination does not give your baby immunity against pertussis" You're saying the vaccine is 100% ineffective and we might as well be injecting water? That seems like a coverup of monumental proportions if millions of children around the world are receiving a useless vaccine. Why would they do this, and who is behind the coverup? Why does that vaccine in particular not work, and why do the authorities claim that it is 70-80% effective?

"There is no vaccine that can prevent all forms of meningitis" -I know this, but I don't see why it's a reason not to vaccinate. Especially after seeing a friend's baby in hospital in an induced coma with meningitis, I'm very happy to be able to prevent some of them. 

"The meningitis vaccine was first given in 1994, that is only 16 years ago." Which one do you mean? I was vaccinated against meningococcal meningitis as a 10-year-old, which is 27 years ago now!

"The swine flu vaccine was introduced only months after the swine flu outbreak hmmm, come on people." I'm not sure what you're trying to say here- every year flu vaccines are produced for the most recent strains of flu, why should swine flu be different?

I am absolutely in favour of people's right to choose whether or not to have vaccinations done, and there are some on the schedule here that I've not had given to my LO for various reasons, but I also think people need to be aware that there is a lot of misinformation out there (on both sides), and the non-vax side in particular tends to slip over the line into some very wild claims.


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## rosieposey

I am interested how a natural tetanus infection cannot provide immunity however a vaccine which is supposed to mimic infection but in a smaller dose does? 
There is a lot of info about stating that the whooping cough vaccine is not as effective as they thought it would be and/ or the strain has mutated. 
I can see the logic.... If we were not vaccinated the vast majority of us would be immune to whooping cough protecting our babies via breastmilk ultimately resulting in almost no cases of whooping cough in newborn/young babies, the vaccine (they say). Is causing pertussis to mutate which leads to yet another vaccine.
I think what mollyluvli is trying to say with the swine flu vaccine and the relevant coments above about time vaccines have been available is obvious, they can't test on humans so how do they know they cause no long term side affects? Long term side affects of pharmaceutical drugs considered safe are being discovered all the time.


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## rosieposey

I believe my daughter is far more protected via my breast milk against pertussis than she would be with a vaccine so I see no reason to vaccinate for that, tetanus I have always question as it is only relevant to deep puncture wounds and even then a good dose of hydrogen peroxide and good wound care is all you really need, dip & polio are almost wiped out anyway ( I don't 100% believe vaccines are responsible for that). Meningitis is a cause for concern however the most common strain of bacterial meningitis in th UK has no vaccine and virul meningitis has no vaccine, if caught early is easily treatable. 
MMR I am undecided but I am not worried about measles, there is no single vaccine for mumps(my baby is a girl anyway) and if she wants to have the rubella when older ten that is her decision to make. This is how I came to my decision. I believe 100% that for me and my baby girl the dangers of vaccinating far outweigh the dangers of not, that's just me and my personal decision.


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## Dragonfly

Sometimes you need only read the vaccine inserts from the vaccine. I stopped with my youngest, he has no mmr and about 3 other I always forget the names of and no boosters for my oldest. I dont care if any one thinks I am a bad mum. If protecting them from further damage is bad, so be it. They dont get ill, they are still breastfed. I am near vaccine free myself and I was never a healthy kid anyway and had measles and mumps. I read up on how these things are actually good for your body, quite surprisingly. I understand it can kill people with underlying health problems, my kids havnt got any of them. I do have underlying health problems like asthma and dont vaccinate myself. I didnt even take vaccines when pregnant. I dont think any one who does is bad for doing them, we all have our own decisions, informed ones thats what I support.


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## MommyJogger

rosieposey said:


> I am interested how a natural tetanus infection cannot provide immunity however a vaccine which is supposed to mimic infection but in a smaller dose does?

It's not always a smaller dose. Tetanus infection does not result in immunity because the bacteria evolved the toxin to work in doses small enough that our immune systems cannot acquire immunity to it. The vaccine takes a large dose of the toxin and inactivates it so that the immune system can pick it up and make antibodies against it without the negative effects of the toxin.



rosieposey said:


> There is a lot of info about stating that the whooping cough vaccine is not as effective as they thought it would be and/ or the strain has mutated.
> I can see the logic.... If we were not vaccinated the vast majority of us would be immune to whooping cough protecting our babies via breast milk ultimately resulting in almost no cases of whooping cough in newborn/young babies,

This would only result from a large percentage of the population contracting (and likely dying) from the illness. You get immunity by getting the illness or being exposed to the illness. This amount of immunity would mean that whooping cough was a widespread pathogen and likely a huge problem for society.



rosieposey said:


> the vaccine (they say). Is causing pertussis to mutate which leads to yet another vaccine..

Immunity is what causes a mutated form of pertussis to become prominent. The bacteria would mutate in the case where immunity was naturally acquired in the case you suggested above, too. Bacterial mutations are happening constantly. It's just that the mutations are usually not something that gives the bacteria a selective advantage. In the case of a new virulent strain, the population's immunity prevents the original strain from replicating at the rate it did before immunity since it has no amenable host. So a random mutation occurs that changes the toxin enough that the antibodies no longer recognize it. Because of this, the new strain is capable of replicating at a high rate and displaces the original strain. But this would happen both through immunity via vaccine or immunity via exposure.



rosieposey said:


> I believe my daughter is far more protected via my breast milk against pertussis than she would be with a vaccine so I see no reason to vaccinate for that,

Your breast milk will only help her if you've been exposed to pertussis. If you have not, then you have no antibodies to pass onto her and breast milk will not protect her. In today's society where most people have been vaccinated, you have likely not been exposed and therefore have no antibodies against the disease.


rosieposey said:


> tetanus I have always question as it is only relevant to deep puncture wounds and even then a good dose of hydrogen peroxide and good wound care is all you really need,

No. Hydrogen peroxide will likely not penetrate a truly deep puncture wound. 
Your personal decision is your personal decision and more power to you, but I wanted you to be as informed as possible regarding your questions about how vaccines/immunity work.


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## elohcin

Hydrogen peroxide WITH betadine scrubbed into the puncture wound has actually been proven really effective against tetanus. :) There is a doctor (not sure which one, I'd have to look it up) who's had far more success with that treatment than the vaccine, and we've actually used it a lot here on the farm and it's worked very well!


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## NaturalMomma

hanelei said:


> "80% of whooping cough cases have been in vaccinated children"
> ^^^ While some of the info you posted may be valid, mollyluvli, this kind of thing is very misleading and it's a simple misinterpretation of statistics. Of course more whooping cough cases are in vaccinated children- that is because vaccinated children far and away outnumber the non-vaccinated. Let me put it simply:
> 
> Take a sample of say 1010 children, 1000 of whom were vaccinated and 10 who were not. Imagine there is a whooping cough outbreak that the 1010 kids were exposed to, and 88 of those kids get it- 80 of them were vaccinated and 8 not. That means that 80% of those whooping cough cases were in vaccinated children! Where that kind of statistic is meaningless though should be obvious- if 80 out of the 1000 vaccinated children got an illness, even though it's 10 times as many cases as with non-vaccinated kids, that is still only 8% of them, whereas 8 out of 10 or 80% of the non-vaccinated children got it.
> 
> Now I have just taken figures out of the air to illustrate what I want to say, but it's an example of how people are often misled by statements like "80% of whooping cough cases are in vaccinated children".
> 
> I just want to highlight some of the other statements in the post:
> 
> "Natural tetanus infection does not result in immunity, why vaccinate?" This doesn't make any sense to me. My answer is- because the vaccine results in immunity, even if natural infection doesn't? There are plenty of statistics available to back this up.
> 
> *"vaccination does not give your baby immunity against pertussis" You're saying the vaccine is 100% ineffective and we might as well be injecting water? That seems like a coverup of monumental proportions if millions of children around the world are receiving a useless vaccine. Why would they do this, and who is behind the coverup? Why does that vaccine in particular not work, and why do the authorities claim that it is 70-80% effective?*
> 
> "There is no vaccine that can prevent all forms of meningitis" -I know this, but I don't see why it's a reason not to vaccinate. Especially after seeing a friend's baby in hospital in an induced coma with meningitis, I'm very happy to be able to prevent some of them.
> 
> "The meningitis vaccine was first given in 1994, that is only 16 years ago." Which one do you mean? I was vaccinated against meningococcal meningitis as a 10-year-old, which is 27 years ago now!
> 
> *"The swine flu vaccine was introduced only months after the swine flu outbreak hmmm, come on people." I'm not sure what you're trying to say here- every year flu vaccines are produced for the most recent strains of flu, why should swine flu be different?*
> 
> I am absolutely in favour of people's right to choose whether or not to have vaccinations done, and there are some on the schedule here that I've not had given to my LO for various reasons, but I also think people need to be aware that there is a lot of misinformation out there (on both sides), and the non-vax side in particular tends to slip over the line into some very wild claims.

To the first bolded. The pertussis vaccine doesn't give immunity to the illness. It actually just lessens symptoms. Many people who have a mild form of pertussis will think they have a cold or other illness which doesn't require a Doctor visit, so we really don't know how many vaccinated people contract pertussis. The vaccine also does not stop a vaccinated person from carrying pertussis and transmitting it to others. The pertussis vaccine and booster also have a short life span, hence why many vaccianted people get pertussis. Pertussis is also something that comes in waves and always has.

To the second bolded, I think she's saying that the vaccine was not studied prior to use. It even says on the flu vaccine insert that "the vaccine is not proven to protect against influenza". 



MommyJogger said:


> rosieposey said:
> 
> 
> I am interested how a natural tetanus infection cannot provide immunity however a vaccine which is supposed to mimic infection but in a smaller dose does?
> 
> It's not always a smaller dose. Tetanus infection does not result in immunity because the bacteria evolved the toxin to work in doses small enough that our immune systems cannot acquire immunity to it. The vaccine takes a large dose of the toxin and inactivates it so that the immune system can pick it up and make antibodies against it without the negative effects of the toxin.
> 
> 
> 
> rosieposey said:
> 
> 
> There is a lot of info about stating that the whooping cough vaccine is not as effective as they thought it would be and/ or the strain has mutated.
> I can see the logic.... If we were not vaccinated the vast majority of us would be immune to whooping cough protecting our babies via breast milk ultimately resulting in almost no cases of whooping cough in newborn/young babies,Click to expand...
> 
> This would only result from a large percentage of the population contracting (and likely dying) from the illness. You get immunity by getting the illness or being exposed to the illness. This amount of immunity would mean that whooping cough was a widespread pathogen and likely a huge problem for society.
> 
> 
> 
> rosieposey said:
> 
> 
> the vaccine (they say). Is causing pertussis to mutate which leads to yet another vaccine..Click to expand...
> 
> *Immunity is what causes a mutated form of pertussis to become prominent.* The bacteria would mutate in the case where immunity was naturally acquired in the case you suggested above, too. Bacterial mutations are happening constantly. It's just that the mutations are usually not something that gives the bacteria a selective advantage. In the case of a new virulent strain, the population's immunity prevents the original strain from replicating at the rate it did before immunity since it has no amenable host. So a random mutation occurs that changes the toxin enough that the antibodies no longer recognize it. Because of this, the new strain is capable of replicating at a high rate and displaces the original strain. But this would happen both through immunity via vaccine or immunity via exposure.
> 
> 
> 
> rosieposey said:
> 
> 
> I believe my daughter is far more protected via my breast milk against pertussis than she would be with a vaccine so I see no reason to vaccinate for that,Click to expand...
> 
> Your breast milk will only help her if you've been exposed to pertussis. If you have not, then you have no antibodies to pass onto her and breast milk will not protect her. In today's society where most people have been vaccinated, you have likely not been exposed and therefore have no antibodies against the disease.
> 
> 
> rosieposey said:
> 
> 
> tetanus I have always question as it is only relevant to deep puncture wounds and even then a good dose of hydrogen peroxide and good wound care is all you really need,Click to expand...
> 
> No. Hydrogen peroxide will likely not penetrate a truly deep puncture wound.
> Your personal decision is your personal decision and more power to you, but I wanted you to be as informed as possible regarding your questions about how vaccines/immunity work.Click to expand...

To the bolded, actually mutations happen from trying to kill something that doesn't fully die, allowing it to regrow into something stronger. Take MRSA for example. The use of anitbacterial soap was part of the cause of MRSA. When you use a soap like that without rinsing your hands off with water, the bacteria may still be on your skin and not completely dead yet. It then forms into a stronger bacteria that cannot be killed off by the same cleaning techniques. We will never have full immunity of pertussis as the vaccine insert states it does not immune someone to the illness, just lessens the symptoms, as well as having a short life span to be effective anyways. So by trying to kill the illness, but not doing so, will cause it to mutate at some point, and has with many illnesses we have today.


----------



## elohcin

NaturalMomma said:


> Pertussis is also something that comes in waves and always has.

Just wanted to ditto this, because pertussis is commonly referred to in "outbreaks." But pertussis is endemic, it's always around, though we tend to see more cases around certain times of year (generally spring and fall). And yep, many cases are in previously vaccinated persons.

The thing that makes this difficult is that it's very likely that people who have been vaccinated and then contract the disease are often misdiagnosed by health care providers because they (the HCP's) won't even consider the "vaccine preventable disease" in that case. Which is a poor approach, IMO, because there has never been research showing vaccines to be absolutely, 100% effective. And since we know that the pertussis vaccines only lessen severity but do not prevent transmission, it's a perfect example of how the vaccinated population can easily spread the disease (perhaps moreso than the unvaccinated, for the reason stated above, and because if the vaccine worked as designed the symptoms wouldn't be as obvious and the affected persons may be less concerned about taking measures to prevent spreading their illness.)


----------



## MommyJogger

NaturalMomma said:


> hanelei said:
> 
> 
> "80% of whooping cough cases have been in vaccinated children"
> ^^^ While some of the info you posted may be valid, mollyluvli, this kind of thing is very misleading and it's a simple misinterpretation of statistics. Of course more whooping cough cases are in vaccinated children- that is because vaccinated children far and away outnumber the non-vaccinated. Let me put it simply:
> 
> Take a sample of say 1010 children, 1000 of whom were vaccinated and 10 who were not. Imagine there is a whooping cough outbreak that the 1010 kids were exposed to, and 88 of those kids get it- 80 of them were vaccinated and 8 not. That means that 80% of those whooping cough cases were in vaccinated children! Where that kind of statistic is meaningless though should be obvious- if 80 out of the 1000 vaccinated children got an illness, even though it's 10 times as many cases as with non-vaccinated kids, that is still only 8% of them, whereas 8 out of 10 or 80% of the non-vaccinated children got it.
> 
> Now I have just taken figures out of the air to illustrate what I want to say, but it's an example of how people are often misled by statements like "80% of whooping cough cases are in vaccinated children".
> 
> I just want to highlight some of the other statements in the post:
> 
> "Natural tetanus infection does not result in immunity, why vaccinate?" This doesn't make any sense to me. My answer is- because the vaccine results in immunity, even if natural infection doesn't? There are plenty of statistics available to back this up.
> 
> *"vaccination does not give your baby immunity against pertussis" You're saying the vaccine is 100% ineffective and we might as well be injecting water? That seems like a coverup of monumental proportions if millions of children around the world are receiving a useless vaccine. Why would they do this, and who is behind the coverup? Why does that vaccine in particular not work, and why do the authorities claim that it is 70-80% effective?*
> 
> "There is no vaccine that can prevent all forms of meningitis" -I know this, but I don't see why it's a reason not to vaccinate. Especially after seeing a friend's baby in hospital in an induced coma with meningitis, I'm very happy to be able to prevent some of them.
> 
> "The meningitis vaccine was first given in 1994, that is only 16 years ago." Which one do you mean? I was vaccinated against meningococcal meningitis as a 10-year-old, which is 27 years ago now!
> 
> *"The swine flu vaccine was introduced only months after the swine flu outbreak hmmm, come on people." I'm not sure what you're trying to say here- every year flu vaccines are produced for the most recent strains of flu, why should swine flu be different?*
> 
> I am absolutely in favour of people's right to choose whether or not to have vaccinations done, and there are some on the schedule here that I've not had given to my LO for various reasons, but I also think people need to be aware that there is a lot of misinformation out there (on both sides), and the non-vax side in particular tends to slip over the line into some very wild claims.
> 
> To the first bolded. The pertussis vaccine doesn't give immunity to the illness. It actually just lessens symptoms. Many people who have a mild form of pertussis will think they have a cold or other illness which doesn't require a Doctor visit, so we really don't know how many vaccinated people contract pertussis. The vaccine also does not stop a vaccinated person from carrying pertussis and transmitting it to others. The pertussis vaccine and booster also have a short life span, hence why many vaccianted people get pertussis. Pertussis is also something that comes in waves and always has.
> 
> To the second bolded, I think she's saying that the vaccine was not studied prior to use. It even says on the flu vaccine insert that "the vaccine is not proven to protect against influenza".
> 
> 
> 
> MommyJogger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rosieposey said:
> 
> 
> I am interested how a natural tetanus infection cannot provide immunity however a vaccine which is supposed to mimic infection but in a smaller dose does?Click to expand...
> 
> It's not always a smaller dose. Tetanus infection does not result in immunity because the bacteria evolved the toxin to work in doses small enough that our immune systems cannot acquire immunity to it. The vaccine takes a large dose of the toxin and inactivates it so that the immune system can pick it up and make antibodies against it without the negative effects of the toxin.
> 
> 
> 
> rosieposey said:
> 
> 
> There is a lot of info about stating that the whooping cough vaccine is not as effective as they thought it would be and/ or the strain has mutated.
> I can see the logic.... If we were not vaccinated the vast majority of us would be immune to whooping cough protecting our babies via breast milk ultimately resulting in almost no cases of whooping cough in newborn/young babies,Click to expand...
> 
> This would only result from a large percentage of the population contracting (and likely dying) from the illness. You get immunity by getting the illness or being exposed to the illness. This amount of immunity would mean that whooping cough was a widespread pathogen and likely a huge problem for society.
> 
> 
> 
> rosieposey said:
> 
> 
> the vaccine (they say). Is causing pertussis to mutate which leads to yet another vaccine..Click to expand...
> 
> *Immunity is what causes a mutated form of pertussis to become prominent.* The bacteria would mutate in the case where immunity was naturally acquired in the case you suggested above, too. Bacterial mutations are happening constantly. It's just that the mutations are usually not something that gives the bacteria a selective advantage. In the case of a new virulent strain, the population's immunity prevents the original strain from replicating at the rate it did before immunity since it has no amenable host. So a random mutation occurs that changes the toxin enough that the antibodies no longer recognize it. Because of this, the new strain is capable of replicating at a high rate and displaces the original strain. But this would happen both through immunity via vaccine or immunity via exposure.
> 
> 
> 
> rosieposey said:
> 
> 
> I believe my daughter is far more protected via my breast milk against pertussis than she would be with a vaccine so I see no reason to vaccinate for that,Click to expand...
> 
> Your breast milk will only help her if you've been exposed to pertussis. If you have not, then you have no antibodies to pass onto her and breast milk will not protect her. In today's society where most people have been vaccinated, you have likely not been exposed and therefore have no antibodies against the disease.
> 
> 
> rosieposey said:
> 
> 
> tetanus I have always question as it is only relevant to deep puncture wounds and even then a good dose of hydrogen peroxide and good wound care is all you really need,Click to expand...
> 
> No. Hydrogen peroxide will likely not penetrate a truly deep puncture wound.
> Your personal decision is your personal decision and more power to you, but I wanted you to be as informed as possible regarding your questions about how vaccines/immunity work.Click to expand...
> 
> To the bolded, actually mutations happen from trying to kill something that doesn't fully die, allowing it to regrow into something stronger. Take MRSA for example. The use of anitbacterial soap was part of the cause of MRSA. When you use a soap like that without rinsing your hands off with water, the bacteria may still be on your skin and not completely dead yet. It then forms into a stronger bacteria that cannot be killed off by the same cleaning techniques. We will never have full immunity of pertussis as the vaccine insert states it does not immune someone to the illness, just lessens the symptoms, as well as having a short life span to be effective anyways. *So by trying to kill the illness, but not doing so, will cause it to mutate at some point, and has with many illnesses we have today.*Click to expand...

Immunity _is_ your body trying to kill something. While antibacterial soap certainly doesn't kill off all the bacteria, the only reason it results in MRSA being a problem is because it displaces the _S. aureus_ that is _not _resistant, creating free real estate and allowing the MRSA to flourish. But MRSA would generally not exist if it were not already present when the antibiotics were applied. So antibiotics don't result in bacteria with more resistance. This is just the simplified way of explaining it to people. Antibiotics result in bacteria that already have more resistance becoming prominent in the local flora.
(Most) vaccines are _not _the same as antibiotic abuse. And while the vaccine doesn't result in "full immunity", it certainly primes the body to mount a quick and effective immune response via the antibodies formed from the injection, preventing the bacteria from multiplying to the same extent it would in a non-vaccinated host. It's inaccurate to say that the vaccine doesn't immunize someone against the illness, because when we say immunize, it's the medical definition, and the vaccine _does _result in the production of antibodies or lymphocytes that can react with a specific antigen so that the body may later mount a quick and effective immune response when exposed to that antigen. As for a short lifespan, it's effective for 5-10 years, mostly depending on the individual's immune system. That's the span of time where exposure and morbidity is the greatest, so I don't really see why that's a problem?
But what I said still stands: mutations and new strains occur whether immunity is achieved through natural exposure or vaccination.


----------



## MommyJogger

elohcin said:


> Hydrogen peroxide WITH betadine scrubbed into the puncture wound has actually been proven really effective against tetanus. :) There is a doctor (not sure which one, I'd have to look it up) who's had far more success with that treatment than the vaccine, and we've actually used it a lot here on the farm and it's worked very well!

As someone who _had _tetanus after this very treatment, I recommend getting your boosters every 5 years. :haha:


----------



## MommyJogger

elohcin said:


> NaturalMomma said:
> 
> 
> Pertussis is also something that comes in waves and always has.
> 
> Just wanted to ditto this, because pertussis is commonly referred to in "outbreaks." But pertussis is endemic, it's always around, though we tend to see more cases around certain times of year (generally spring and fall). And yep, many cases are in previously vaccinated persons.
> 
> The thing that makes this difficult is that it's very likely that people who have been vaccinated and then contract the disease are often misdiagnosed by health care providers because they (the HCP's) won't even consider the "vaccine preventable disease" in that case. Which is a poor approach, IMO, because there has never been research showing vaccines to be absolutely, 100% effective. And since we know that the pertussis vaccines only lessen severity but do not prevent transmission,* it's a perfect example of how the vaccinated population can easily spread the disease (perhaps moreso than the unvaccinated*, for the reason stated above, and because if the vaccine worked as designed the symptoms wouldn't be as obvious and the affected persons may be less concerned about taking measures to prevent spreading their illness.)Click to expand...

Better they be in bed fighting for their lives with a severe illness? :shrug: I honestly don't get it; this sounds more like a reason for crunchy mamas to seriously consider getting the pertussis vaccine even if they don't get anything else.


----------



## NaturalMomma

MommyJogger said:


> NaturalMomma said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hanelei said:
> 
> 
> "80% of whooping cough cases have been in vaccinated children"
> ^^^ While some of the info you posted may be valid, mollyluvli, this kind of thing is very misleading and it's a simple misinterpretation of statistics. Of course more whooping cough cases are in vaccinated children- that is because vaccinated children far and away outnumber the non-vaccinated. Let me put it simply:
> 
> Take a sample of say 1010 children, 1000 of whom were vaccinated and 10 who were not. Imagine there is a whooping cough outbreak that the 1010 kids were exposed to, and 88 of those kids get it- 80 of them were vaccinated and 8 not. That means that 80% of those whooping cough cases were in vaccinated children! Where that kind of statistic is meaningless though should be obvious- if 80 out of the 1000 vaccinated children got an illness, even though it's 10 times as many cases as with non-vaccinated kids, that is still only 8% of them, whereas 8 out of 10 or 80% of the non-vaccinated children got it.
> 
> Now I have just taken figures out of the air to illustrate what I want to say, but it's an example of how people are often misled by statements like "80% of whooping cough cases are in vaccinated children".
> 
> I just want to highlight some of the other statements in the post:
> 
> "Natural tetanus infection does not result in immunity, why vaccinate?" This doesn't make any sense to me. My answer is- because the vaccine results in immunity, even if natural infection doesn't? There are plenty of statistics available to back this up.
> 
> *"vaccination does not give your baby immunity against pertussis" You're saying the vaccine is 100% ineffective and we might as well be injecting water? That seems like a coverup of monumental proportions if millions of children around the world are receiving a useless vaccine. Why would they do this, and who is behind the coverup? Why does that vaccine in particular not work, and why do the authorities claim that it is 70-80% effective?*
> 
> "There is no vaccine that can prevent all forms of meningitis" -I know this, but I don't see why it's a reason not to vaccinate. Especially after seeing a friend's baby in hospital in an induced coma with meningitis, I'm very happy to be able to prevent some of them.
> 
> "The meningitis vaccine was first given in 1994, that is only 16 years ago." Which one do you mean? I was vaccinated against meningococcal meningitis as a 10-year-old, which is 27 years ago now!
> 
> *"The swine flu vaccine was introduced only months after the swine flu outbreak hmmm, come on people." I'm not sure what you're trying to say here- every year flu vaccines are produced for the most recent strains of flu, why should swine flu be different?*
> 
> I am absolutely in favour of people's right to choose whether or not to have vaccinations done, and there are some on the schedule here that I've not had given to my LO for various reasons, but I also think people need to be aware that there is a lot of misinformation out there (on both sides), and the non-vax side in particular tends to slip over the line into some very wild claims.
> 
> To the first bolded. The pertussis vaccine doesn't give immunity to the illness. It actually just lessens symptoms. Many people who have a mild form of pertussis will think they have a cold or other illness which doesn't require a Doctor visit, so we really don't know how many vaccinated people contract pertussis. The vaccine also does not stop a vaccinated person from carrying pertussis and transmitting it to others. The pertussis vaccine and booster also have a short life span, hence why many vaccianted people get pertussis. Pertussis is also something that comes in waves and always has.
> 
> To the second bolded, I think she's saying that the vaccine was not studied prior to use. It even says on the flu vaccine insert that "the vaccine is not proven to protect against influenza".
> 
> 
> 
> MommyJogger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rosieposey said:
> 
> 
> I am interested how a natural tetanus infection cannot provide immunity however a vaccine which is supposed to mimic infection but in a smaller dose does?Click to expand...
> 
> It's not always a smaller dose. Tetanus infection does not result in immunity because the bacteria evolved the toxin to work in doses small enough that our immune systems cannot acquire immunity to it. The vaccine takes a large dose of the toxin and inactivates it so that the immune system can pick it up and make antibodies against it without the negative effects of the toxin.
> 
> 
> 
> rosieposey said:
> 
> 
> There is a lot of info about stating that the whooping cough vaccine is not as effective as they thought it would be and/ or the strain has mutated.
> I can see the logic.... If we were not vaccinated the vast majority of us would be immune to whooping cough protecting our babies via breast milk ultimately resulting in almost no cases of whooping cough in newborn/young babies,Click to expand...
> 
> This would only result from a large percentage of the population contracting (and likely dying) from the illness. You get immunity by getting the illness or being exposed to the illness. This amount of immunity would mean that whooping cough was a widespread pathogen and likely a huge problem for society.
> 
> 
> 
> rosieposey said:
> 
> 
> the vaccine (they say). Is causing pertussis to mutate which leads to yet another vaccine..Click to expand...
> 
> *Immunity is what causes a mutated form of pertussis to become prominent.* The bacteria would mutate in the case where immunity was naturally acquired in the case you suggested above, too. Bacterial mutations are happening constantly. It's just that the mutations are usually not something that gives the bacteria a selective advantage. In the case of a new virulent strain, the population's immunity prevents the original strain from replicating at the rate it did before immunity since it has no amenable host. So a random mutation occurs that changes the toxin enough that the antibodies no longer recognize it. Because of this, the new strain is capable of replicating at a high rate and displaces the original strain. But this would happen both through immunity via vaccine or immunity via exposure.
> 
> 
> 
> rosieposey said:
> 
> 
> I believe my daughter is far more protected via my breast milk against pertussis than she would be with a vaccine so I see no reason to vaccinate for that,Click to expand...
> 
> Your breast milk will only help her if you've been exposed to pertussis. If you have not, then you have no antibodies to pass onto her and breast milk will not protect her. In today's society where most people have been vaccinated, you have likely not been exposed and therefore have no antibodies against the disease.
> 
> 
> rosieposey said:
> 
> 
> tetanus I have always question as it is only relevant to deep puncture wounds and even then a good dose of hydrogen peroxide and good wound care is all you really need,Click to expand...
> 
> No. Hydrogen peroxide will likely not penetrate a truly deep puncture wound.
> Your personal decision is your personal decision and more power to you, but I wanted you to be as informed as possible regarding your questions about how vaccines/immunity work.Click to expand...
> 
> To the bolded, actually mutations happen from trying to kill something that doesn't fully die, allowing it to regrow into something stronger. Take MRSA for example. The use of anitbacterial soap was part of the cause of MRSA. When you use a soap like that without rinsing your hands off with water, the bacteria may still be on your skin and not completely dead yet. It then forms into a stronger bacteria that cannot be killed off by the same cleaning techniques. We will never have full immunity of pertussis as the vaccine insert states it does not immune someone to the illness, just lessens the symptoms, as well as having a short life span to be effective anyways. *So by trying to kill the illness, but not doing so, will cause it to mutate at some point, and has with many illnesses we have today.*Click to expand...
> 
> Immunity _is_ your body trying to kill something. While antibacterial soap certainly doesn't kill off all the bacteria, the only reason it results in MRSA being a problem is because it displaces the _S. aureus_ that is _not _resistant, creating free real estate and allowing the MRSA to flourish. But MRSA would generally not exist if it were not already present when the antibiotics were applied. So antibiotics don't result in bacteria with more resistance. This is just the simplified way of explaining it to people. Antibiotics result in bacteria that already have more resistance becoming prominent in the local flora.
> (Most) vaccines are _not _the same as antibiotic abuse. And while the vaccine doesn't result in "full immunity", it certainly primes the body to mount a quick and effective immune response via the antibodies formed from the injection, preventing the bacteria from multiplying to the same extent it would in a non-vaccinated host. It's inaccurate to say that the vaccine doesn't immunize someone against the illness, because when we say immunize, it's the medical definition, and the vaccine _does _result in the production of antibodies or lymphocytes that can react with a specific antigen so that the body may later mount a quick and effective immune response when exposed to that antigen. As for a short lifespan, it's effective for *5-10 years*, mostly depending on the individual's immune system. That's the span of time where exposure and morbidity is the greatest, so I don't really see why that's a problem?
> But what I said still stands: mutations and new strains occur whether immunity is achieved through natural exposure or vaccination.Click to expand...

No it's not. Studies have been coming out in the past few months saying it wears off very quickly and they are now looking at redoing the pertussis schedule since it doesn't last as long as they once thought. 



MommyJogger said:


> elohcin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NaturalMomma said:
> 
> 
> Pertussis is also something that comes in waves and always has.
> 
> Just wanted to ditto this, because pertussis is commonly referred to in "outbreaks." But pertussis is endemic, it's always around, though we tend to see more cases around certain times of year (generally spring and fall). And yep, many cases are in previously vaccinated persons.
> 
> The thing that makes this difficult is that it's very likely that people who have been vaccinated and then contract the disease are often misdiagnosed by health care providers because they (the HCP's) won't even consider the "vaccine preventable disease" in that case. Which is a poor approach, IMO, because there has never been research showing vaccines to be absolutely, 100% effective. And since we know that the pertussis vaccines only lessen severity but do not prevent transmission,* it's a perfect example of how the vaccinated population can easily spread the disease (perhaps moreso than the unvaccinated*, for the reason stated above, and because if the vaccine worked as designed the symptoms wouldn't be as obvious and the affected persons may be less concerned about taking measures to prevent spreading their illness.)Click to expand...
> 
> *Better they be in bed fighting for their lives with a severe illness?* :shrug: I honestly don't get it; this sounds more like a reason for crunchy mamas to seriously consider getting the pertussis vaccine even if they don't get anything else.Click to expand...

Pertussis is not severe for everyone, vaccinated or not. It is most severe in the elderly, those with compromised immune systems, and very young babies (who would be too young for the vaccine anyways). Pertussis is an illness that can range in severity, most have a mild form, it will last a few weeks and it sucks, but they aren't fighting for their lives. I've had pertussis several times as a kid, and I had all my vaccines and boosters. While it sucked to be coughing like that, I wasn't bed ridden or anything, and back then we still went to school with pertussis after the first few days.


----------



## elohcin

MommyJogger said:


> elohcin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NaturalMomma said:
> 
> 
> Pertussis is also something that comes in waves and always has.
> 
> Just wanted to ditto this, because pertussis is commonly referred to in "outbreaks." But pertussis is endemic, it's always around, though we tend to see more cases around certain times of year (generally spring and fall). And yep, many cases are in previously vaccinated persons.
> 
> The thing that makes this difficult is that it's very likely that people who have been vaccinated and then contract the disease are often misdiagnosed by health care providers because they (the HCP's) won't even consider the "vaccine preventable disease" in that case. Which is a poor approach, IMO, because there has never been research showing vaccines to be absolutely, 100% effective. And since we know that the pertussis vaccines only lessen severity but do not prevent transmission,* it's a perfect example of how the vaccinated population can easily spread the disease (perhaps moreso than the unvaccinated*, for the reason stated above, and because if the vaccine worked as designed the symptoms wouldn't be as obvious and the affected persons may be less concerned about taking measures to prevent spreading their illness.)Click to expand...
> 
> Better they be in bed fighting for their lives with a severe illness? :shrug: I honestly don't get it; this sounds more like a reason for crunchy mamas to seriously consider getting the pertussis vaccine even if they don't get anything else.Click to expand...

I'm not meaning this argumentively, but just out of curiosity. Have you ever seen a live case of pertussis? Really it's *generally* not as bad as people think. It requires a lot of TLC (and if medicinal treatment is sought early on that can be VERY effective), yes, for children especially, and the cough can drag on for months, but many MANY cases are very light, and it's bad coughing that makes nighttimes difficult. (and there are many people who are exposed and never come down sick, or are asymptomatic) In YOUNG babies, yes, pertussis is dangerous, but even those babies aren't yet protected by vaccines. (the CDC states that it takes the full 3 doses to acquire the "full" protection offered by the vaccine- which has been proven to be no more than 75-80% effective- and those aren't completed until 6 months. Which is why they tell OTHERS to get vaccinated to protect the baby, but the vaccine doesn't prevent transmission, so there's still no guarantee even with vaccination, unfortunately) To me it just makes sense to rely on keeping the family healthy with diet and supplements, diligent handwashing, being smart about when/where baby is taken, exclusively breastfeeding, etc, rather than relying on the possibilities of a vaccination.

It's not a matter of finding an excuse for anything, but just weighing every aspect of BOTH sides. It's so important to understand the benefits to vaccines and how they work, but ALSO to understand the truth about the diseases, because they are often not as severe and deadly as they are made out to be to encourage vaccination. That's just an unfortunate fact of marketing. :( Sadly it seems pretty clear that, like most things anymore, it's become about money instead of about health. I think the vaccine program could have a lot of potential otherwise!


----------



## elohcin

NaturalMomma said:


> Pertussis is not severe for everyone, vaccinated or not. It is most severe in the elderly, those with compromised immune systems, and very young babies (who would be too young for the vaccine anyways). Pertussis is an illness that can range in severity, most have a mild form, it will last a few weeks and it sucks, but they aren't fighting for their lives. I've had pertussis several times as a kid, and I had all my vaccines and boosters. While it sucked to be coughing like that, I wasn't bed ridden or anything, and back then we still went to school with pertussis after the first few days.

Guess I should have read your reply first! LOL


----------



## MommyJogger

*No it's not. Studies have been coming out in the past few months saying it wears off very quickly and they are now looking at redoing the pertussis schedule since it doesn't last as long as they once thought. *

The studies I've read (or my boss has peer reviewed and they're coming out shortly-2 new ones using different stat programs that come to the same conclusion) conclude that it wanes over time on the order of still being 70-80% effective 5 years later- and that's not an average, that's taken from the pool of people for whom it wore off fastest. I'd still call that pretty effective during the time for which it's most dangerous and preventable (roughly ages 1-6).


*Pertussis is not severe for everyone, vaccinated or not. It is most severe in the elderly, those with compromised immune systems, and very young babies (who would be too young for the vaccine anyways). Pertussis is an illness that can range in severity, most have a mild form, it will last a few weeks and it sucks, but they aren't fighting for their lives. I've had pertussis several times as a kid, and I had all my vaccines and boosters. While it sucked to be coughing like that, I wasn't bed ridden or anything, and back then we still went to school with pertussis after the first few days.[/QUOTE]

*
How do you think we prevent the elderly and very young babies from getting it? You can still contract it and transmit it, but transmission is greatly lowered because the duration of infection and contagion are shortened and just the sheer titer count decrease in infected individuals who have the vaccine decreases spread of the illness. There's a good reason society developed a vaccine for this.


----------



## MommyJogger

NaturalMomma said:


> and back then we still went to school with pertussis after the first few days.

Btw, also one of the reasons that (although I'm scared to death I'm wrong about the safety of vaccines and that they will hurt Joseph) he will be vaccinated against pertussis. That's crazy; I'm in the camp of "you don't go to school/daycare/playgroup if you are still showing any signs of being unwell". Kids would get sick a lot less in general if we stopped making schools incubators.


----------



## elohcin

MommyJogger said:


> NaturalMomma said:
> 
> 
> and back then we still went to school with pertussis after the first few days.
> 
> Btw, also one of the reasons that (although I'm scared to death I'm wrong about the safety of vaccines and that they will hurt Joseph) he will be vaccinated against pertussis. That's crazy; I'm in the camp of "you don't go to school/daycare/playgroup if you are still showing any signs of being unwell". Kids would get sick a lot less in general if we stopped making schools incubators.Click to expand...

I completely agree with you. I think it's ridiculous how many children are out on playgrounds or at restaurants or at school, who SHOULD be at home resting and healing (and not spreading)!! I totally understand cases of not yet knowing your child is sick, but the really obvious ones...not only does it irk me that parents are careless like that, but that their child likely needs to be at home for their OWN body as well. Sometimes it's unavoidable if you're the only care provider and you NEED to get somewhere during that time (I will be the first to admit I've done it), but it seems to be a regular, casual thing for so many families.


----------



## staralfur

It may not be serious for everyone, but I had pertussis when I was very young and have had respiratory issues ever since. Still, to this day. 

Not a chance I'm willing to take with my daughter just because not all cases end badly.


----------



## ellebob

The only person I've ever known to contract something which is routinely vaccinated against is my sister's friend.

She caught whooping cough when she was 6 and was off school for two months. She was not vaccinated and was breastfed.


----------



## lovemyDD

My DD had a complete vaccination, I think vaccination helps her be safer from specific diseases.


----------



## momandwife89

My son is not vaccinated and he has never contracted a disease tht they vaccinate for (he is only 2) I breastfed him until he was 2 to ensure a strong immune system. I would very much suggest Dr. Sears vaccine book. It is very unbiased (he is actually pro vaccines) but he gives you the hard facts and it made me feel more secure in my descision to not vaccinate.


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## CMarie

My son isn't vaccinated and is still breastfeeding 6+ times a day and has never been sick besides having Roseola. That said, my cousin's daughter who is now 3 was vaccinated on schedule until age 1 including her MMR shot. The day she got her MMR shot she completely changed...she quit talking, walking, and was screaming/crying for hours at a time. Her speech is still no where near what it should be for her age (she can only say 4 words) and although she is walking fine, she doesn't communicate with anyone except for her parents. My cousin swears it was the shot as her brother (my other cousin) had a very similar reaction.

I'd also recommend The Vaccine Book by Dr. Sears . . it has a lot of wonderful info :)


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## Dragonfly

Very much like what happened to my sister whos speech didnt progress at all after it among many other things. William was the same his speech slowed down to, lost of screaming a lot and stopped eating. Some children can be affected. Sadly not all recover. My sister is 18 now and never heard her say my name yet was meeting all milestones and was one happy child before it. She would have co slept with me as a child in my room. My dad has always said it was that. Myself I have not many vaccines, no mmr as there wasnt one I think then and I wasnt on the reg to receive any. No one knows how that happened but I am actually glad.


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## HellBunny

Dragonfly said:


> Very much like what happened to my sister whos speech didnt progress at all after it among many other things. William was the same his speech slowed down to, lost of screaming a lot and stopped eating. Some children can be affected. Sadly not all recover. My sister is 18 now and never heard her say my name yet was meeting all milestones and was one happy child before it. She would have co slept with me as a child in my room. My dad has always said it was that. Myself I have not many vaccines, no mmr as there wasnt one I think then and I wasnt on the reg to receive any. No one knows how that happened but I am actually glad.

Agree with this x


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## tuckie27

This is the first time I've commented on anything pertaining to vaccines on b&b or anywhere else on the net for that matter. As a first time mom, I have been researching the vaccine 'debate' and have read both sides. I'm the type to investigate things myself and come to my own opinion. I think there is a lot of scare mongering and misinformation on both sides and I think people tend to make their minds up early and then only focus on what they want to hear/read. This is just my impression from all the debates and arguing back and forth I've read over the last several weeks. Here's what I've personally decided and I'll tell you what I've learned and why I made this decision: 

I am going to vaccinate my children.
Am I 100% sure they will not have bad reactions? No. 
Do I think vaccines are infallible? No.
Do I think vaccines protect everyone that receives them? No.

After all my reading, I truly believe that it would be socially irresponsible to not vaccinate my child. I do not think parents that choose not to vaccinate have the intent to harm, but I believe their choice is irresponsible in the end. Herd immunity requires that we think as a group. That we choose to vaccinate the group in order to create a firewall for our community. Not everyone in the group can be protected (like people with certain immune disorders, very young babies, and organ recipients), but luckily this vulnerable group makes up a very small percentage of the overall community. It is our responsibility as the majority to maintain the 'firewall' of protection for this small, vulnerable group. However, if the unvaccinated group becomes too large (parents refusing to vaccinate their children is very much on the rise), herd immunity is compromised. This is how choosing not to vaccinate your child affects those around you. I feel I have a responsibility to protect the vulnerable members of my community by vaccinating my child. Is there risk? Yes. A small percentage of children may have adverse reactions but this is a risk I'm willing to take for the overall greater good of the group. I cannot force you to put your child at risk to these adverse reactions and certainly understand the apprehension to do so. Yet, it is still my belief that it is a socially irresponsible choice on the parent's part when they choose not to vaccinate.

I also don't understand how the anecdotal stories of adverse reactions are worse than stories from our history books about children dying from these diseases that have been eradicated thanks largely to vaccination efforts. Even when parents thought vaccines were linked to autism, I still don't understand why they would choose not to...as if the threat of autism is so much worse than a potentially deadly disease. It seems the anti-vaccination groups use a lot of scare tactics (as do the extreme pro-vacciners) but it seems anti-vaccination tends to be a bit of a recent fad also. This is just my personal opinion, but I am weary of these trends in opinion and tend to look more to history, common sense, and medical science than the latest fads in pareting choices. I don't mean to say its a fad in a condescending way. What I mean is that parenting philosophies come and go and these trends or fads in parenting are often later debunked or 'better', newer fads replace them. For instance, many people view the old school 'cry it out' methods as barbaric now, but there was a time when that was the trend in dealing with crying babies. The Doctors making millions of dollars writing books about these 'hot' topics in parenting today will likely be viewed as having been wrong in a decade or so. I also think we are out of touch with how bad things were pre-vaccines. We haven't seen the damage these diseases can do the way our great grandparents did and we are lucky for that. Polio, for instance, was at one time devestating and crippled many young children before the vaccine was developed. This could change quickly though with more parents choosing not to vaccinate. I'm not trying to shame you for your choices but this is a very, very serious issue. Herd immunity has already been compromised in some areas (hence the resurgence of pertussis, etc.) I'm not some pro-vaccine activist or anything. I'm just a regular person that has been personally researching the topic and have become very concerned with what I've discovered is taking place. I urge you to research this and weigh the risks with the benefits to your child, and all of our children, as a whole.

Here are some of my information sources:

'Mumps and the UK epidemic' McMahon E. et al (2005)

Priorities in Health: Disease Control Priorities. (2006)

'Herd Immunity and Herd Effect: New Insights and Definitions.' Samuel, R. (2000)

'Herd Immunity: History, Theory, Practice' Fine, P. (1993) 

https://www.niaid.nih.gov/topics/pages/communityimmunity.aspx

https://www.health.harvard.edu/video/herd-immunity/


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## Dragonfly

I stop listening to people when they call other parents irresponsible for doing whats best for their child. No where else on this forum are you allowed to call parents irresponsible? you cant call someone's parenting choices that so why is it allowed on vaccines threads?
Formula feed, cc, cio, circ...all topics that you cant call irresponsible for..why because you just cant! 
Because you dont agree with someone dosnt give you the right to call them irresponsible.


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## Wobbles

A decent thread always goes downhill when members decide they won't just answer the questions but attack the parenting choices of others.

Calling those who make different choices from you irresponsible isn't in the forum spirit at all. You take the information you have been given and even looked up and make your own choice just like others. 

Reminder of the forum rules:
Antisocial, discriminatory or offensive messages and quotes (intended or otherwise) aimed at the community at large, certain demographics (including parenting styles) or specific members, are not permitted.

This thread and the comments are being reviewed with the team.


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