# Where do "attachment parents" stand on the Super Nanny Method??



## Badswan

By the "Super Nanny Method" I mean the Sleep Seperation Technique and the Stay in Bed technique shown on the TV show Supernanny. More info here and here 

(I'll assume you know what I mean by attachment parents!) 

My son is 21 months old and I'm 5 months pregnant. He wakes 2 or 3 times a night and either my husband or I are ending up sleeping with him every night. Something has got to change before the new baby arrives otherwise we'll all suffer! 

Several friends have said to just shut the door on him and "leave him to it" i.e. let him cry it out - but I can't do this - I just don't agree with it. 

We practice a lot of the values of attachment parenting and CIO just isn't right for us - but none of my softly softly method are having any effect. 

I need a method that's strong enough to work as I fee like I'm just being a push over at the moment and I know that's not what attachment parenting is about! 

So what do you reckon to the Super Nanny Method?


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## lozzy21

Iv just had a read and iv got no problems with the methods but i dont think they will work with a child your LO's age, to me they are better suited to older children who are able to understand more. Why is your child waking? Is he warm enough? Has he had enough to eat and drink before bed? I would look at why hes waking before trying to fix it. Niamh is two and still wakes to come in our bed most nights, once shes in our bed she sleeps right through.


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## Badswan

Thanks Lozzy21

We think he wakes mainly out of habit and because he wants to sleep with us. He still wakes even if we sleep with him so I'm guess it's mainly habit. 

We are pretty sure he's not cold, hungry etc. He is very communicative, his language skills are very good for his age - he could easily tell us if he were hungry, cold or in pain etc - he does so during the day. He just won't go back to sleep and, if we put him back to bed, we have to stay with him otherwise he becomes upset. If we stay he will lie quietly awake for ages but everytime we try to leave he cries. 

He sleeps in a mattress on the floor in his room (we used to co-sleep and this seemed like the easiest transition rather than a cot) and has done for about 6 months so whenever he wakes he just walks though into our room and wakes us up.


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## Rachel_C

I wouldn't say we're attachment parents but we try to be gentle and respectful. I don't like Super Nanny much but I've actually done both of those methods without knowing! I think my LO was a bit younger than yours, maybe 18 months, when I did the one where you gradually move towards the door. My LO was pretty chatty at that age and understood well and it worked well for us all. She wasn't waking in the night but bedtimes had been a nightmare before then. I think it would work well during the night too, as long as you're willing and able to put the time in. It's not a quick fix - you need to go as slowly as your child needs. You're at a good time to do it now I guess? I'd definitely want it sorted before the new baby arrives - that's why we did it then. 

Then when her bedtimes got all messed up again (I blame OH and his refusal to do as I tell him :rofl:) we tried that again and she was a few months older and was having none of it! So we did the other one. I was ok with that as she was very communicative by then, we were able to reason with her etc so I didn't feel it was unfair. She did have a few angry tantrums at being put back in her bed and I ignored those (well, I told her it is ok to be angry but that she still had to go to bed) but as soon as she started getting upset, I went and cuddled her, then when she was calm we started again. I think it took 3 nights for it to really 'work'. On the first night, I put her back in bed something like 47 times :rofl: but she didn't get upset once. It was like a game to her - she would come through to the living room (we were in a flat), then I'd chase her back to the bedroom with her laughing, catch her and put her in bed. The second night it took maybe 18 attempts. She did get a little upset in the middle, so I cuddled her till she was ok. The third night it only took a few times before she went to sleep. Something I feel is important is to let them know that they don't have to go to sleep. I let LO have her books and her teddies (but no other toys). She can sing and chatter and read and she always has. It's really nice to hear her going to sleep happy! I think this method is quite a good one for a slightly older child who understands as it is quite firm but as long as your child isn't upset, it's not cruel. 

Sorry for the essay! In your situation, I think I would try the first method first, then use the second if it doesn't work or in a couple of months. One thing I would say is very important to make it successful is to be the same every night.


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## Badswan

Thanks Rachel_C I like how you've taken the method and added in a bit of cuddling!


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## NaturalMomma

As a AP momma we actually bed-share and co-sleep (we define co-sleeping as in the same room but not in the same bed) until they wean themselves. To us as a family, it just makes sense. Our oldest son weaned from bed-sharing at 3 years of age, which was a few months after ds2 was born. He is 5 years old and still co-sleeping, he has his own bed in the "family room" where we all sleep. ds2 is 2.5 years old and still bed-sharing and I am 28 weeks pregnant. My kids do not wake in the night and are very indpendent so I have no problems with them continuing to co-sleep and I do not believe this is a bad thing. I myself co-slept until 6 years of age and am a married mother of almost 3 with my own business :)

ETA: I don't think bed-sharing, co-sleeping, or independent sleeping are bad. However, with the first link it does always bug me when people assume that if you bed-share/co-sleep then you have no time for you, your marriage or are getting bad sleep. My kids go to bed many hours before myself and DH do and we have plenty of time for ourselves and our marriage. We also all get a good nights sleep.


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## Sam Pearson

As an attachment parent I wouldn't even try to get my children to sleep away from me if they don't want to. My older children have all weaned themselves from the bed when they were ready. Our youngest still sleeps with us or she starts in her own bed then comes and hops in bed with us if she wakes up in the night.


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## Toms Mummy

Hi, we were in a similar situation as you when it came to lo waking in night. He bed-shared from birth up until 2 and then we thought he should go in his own bed. We would lie with him until he fell asleep. He would then wake in the night and come in to our bed for the rest of the night. We decided that this wasn't ideal for any of us so he came back in to our bed fulltime. He is still here at 3 yrs, 3 months old. We will now wait and let him decide when he wants to move. We are ttc atm and will prob end up bed sharing with both..... Is there any way your LO can come back in to your bed fulltime?


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## octosquishy

Okay, this is a completely honest response, so don't take it offensively, and take it as you wish ;)

I wasn't It for CIO. At all. Then my son came around who decided no more bottles to go to sleep with, and he would start scratching my face and slapping me (hard!) and pulling my hair while I would try to rock him to sleep (which took an hour, at least) (and he is only 8 months old!), so eventually, I had enough and did my research on CIO. CIO isn't as harsh as it sounds, trust me. took less than a week, and I can lay him down without him being tired and he will fidget and go to sleep in 6 or 7 minutes (If it's longer than that and he's still awake, I go and get him and try to put him to sleep on the bottle {sometimes it works, sometimes not, that's why I just leave him be} )

I have a 3 strike rule, essentially. If he's cranky crying while on my lap, I put him down on the floor to play, if he turns around and tries to pull up while cranky crying, I try to give him the bottle, if he pushes it away, he's telling me he's just sleepy. I put him in the bed, and more often than not, he is literally asleep the moment I lay him down.

They say go in at 5 minutes, 10 minutes, 20 then 30, but that didn't work for me. I had to start at 10, and it never went past 6 minutes.

I'm not trying to advocate you to do something that you don't want, it's not for everybody, but it's not as harsh as just letting them cry for hours. You will begin to learn you baby's timings, if Isiah goes longer than 10 minutes, he's not tired, he can tell me that. You son, at 21 months, should definitely be able to tell you exactly what he wants.

If you have any questions, or concerns, PLEASE feel free to drop me a line!!


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## Badswan

Thanks to all who have replied to this thread. 

To the people saying go back to co-sleeping... deciding to move LO to his own bed was a big decision not taken lightly but co-sleeping just wasn't working for any of us. LO was waking a lot and I work full time and was suffering and becoming depressed through lack of sleep - when I became pregnant I had horrendous morning sickness for the first three months and was getting up and down in the night and disturbing everyone. Also my husband is a cabinet maker and works with dangerous machinery and we felt that the levels of sleep we were all getting were becoming not just inconvenient but dangerous. I would have loved to keep LO in with us but something had to change. Initially he took very well to his own bed and actually started sleeping though, which he had never done before, but over the past couple of months he's been getting worse and worse. 

To those who say CIO... I get where you are coming from but I already feel a huge amount of guilt that I have to be away from my son all day working - the CIO method is just not something I feel capable of doing on top of that. 

Thanks again to you all x x x x


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## Toms Mummy

Hi, I wonder if when he wakes in the middle of the night, instead of putting him back and leaving him to cry. Maybe you put him back and stay in his room, sit next to him perhaps so he doesn't feel the need to cry and then you can sneak off when he's asleep. Short term this will prob make you tired as you'll be sitting next to his bed for god know's but in the long run, once he gets the hang of falling asleep in his bed in the night, it might work! :shrug: ..... I've not tried this, but just suggesting x Good luck xxx


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## Sam Pearson

The damage done through CIO is not something you can see by looking.


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## Dragonfly

I cannot stand supernanny or any of them. They are not AP at all imo.


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## Ozzieshunni

From the AP principles:



> Parents who are frustrated with frequent waking or who are sleep deprived may be tempted to try sleep training techniques that recommend letting a baby cry in an effort to "teach" him to "self-soothe". New research suggests that these techniques can have detrimental physiological effects on the baby by increasing the stress hormone cortisol in the brain, with potential long term effects to emotional regulation, sleep patterns and behavior. An infant is not neurologically or developmentally capable of calming or soothing himself to sleep in a way that is healthy. The part of the brain that helps with self-soothing isn't well developed until the child is two and a half to three years of age. Until that time, a child depends on his parents to help him calm down and learn to regulate his intense feelings.

So, no, sleep training or supernanny techniques are NOT AP. https://www.attachmentparenting.org/principles/night.php


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## Badswan

UPDATE: So... We've been doing (our version) of the Super Nanny method since last Thursday. 
We've been sitting away from him while he goes to sleep at bed time and then, when he gets up in the night, we've been putting him back in bed with a cuddle and a kiss and saying "It's time to go to sleep" then sitting a little away from him like we did at bed time. 
We've not once left LO to "cry it out" and, although there have been tears, we've been in the room all the time and feel that, as a compromise, it's working pretty well. 
When he has got very upset we've given him a drink of water and another cuddle to calm him.
He's definitly getting the message (although he is still waking and coming through to us at night) but we are taking it slowly and gently and being consistent. 

I've also invested in a Gro-Clock to try and teach him when it's sleeping/getting up time - it's on it's way from Amazon now.

@Toms Mummy - what you suggested is what we have been doing and it's not working he's just staying awake for hours, thanks for your thoughts though. 

@Ozzieshunni - thanks for the AP principles but it seems like unless you can co-sleep AP draws a blank on suggesting actual techniques - it seems to be more helpful with what NOT to do rather than what TO do. I've tried and tried all the gentle techniques under the sun and nothing works - co-sleeping wasn't working for any of us, we did it for almost 18 months and at first it worked and was wonderful but then it got ridiculous - I was so sad for LO to leave our bed but something had to change! Thanks for your thoughts though.


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## Dragonfly

Thats a bit sad you had to do that. But in answer again sleep training is no ap at all. Ap is very rewarding for lots of people. My oldest wants his own bed now we just have to pick it up.


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## Badswan

So what do you do then? If AP doesn't allow for any method that could be interpreted "sleep training" and co-sleeping isn't working how do you cope? What do you do to make sure that you all get enough sleep?

I was totally open to suggestion but AP seems only to say what you can't do and doesn't give any proper suggestions for things to try!

If being an AP parent means letting my child wake all night, putting my husband at risk (as I mentioned earlier he works with machinery and being over tired was dangeous for him) and that I am guaranteed to be over tired and grouchy for the time I do get to spend with my son then I'm out!

I thought I was being a good mother trying to stick to the AP principles but no one was benefitting from the situation as it stood and AP had nothing helpful to suggest. 

If any AP parents out there have any suggestions then please let me know - I'd be more than happy to hear them but as it stands AP is drawing a blank on helping my family.


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## Laucu

At the end of the day you have to do what is best for you and your family. There is never going to be a 'one size fits all' answer. 

We did the sleep separation technique with Emma when she was 25 months old. It worked within 2 weeks and really wasn't that traumatic for anyone. Emma just tried to make conversation with me whilst I sat on her floor and knitted! She didn't really cry. 

She is a happy, well rested little girl who feels safe and loved in her own bed. She does on the odd occasion wake up in the night and come into our bed. I know that it's because she is ill or has had a bad dream so I don't fight it. She will fall back to sleep in our bed and I then carry her back in to hers!


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## Laucu

Oh I also wanted to add that the Gro Clocks are good! It took a couple of months for it to sink though! :)


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## Ozzieshunni

It's not all about cosleeping. Did you look at that link I posted? This is a great blog post on gentle sleep techniques: https://attachmentparenting.org/blog/2009/03/07/gentle-baby-and-toddler-sleep-tips/


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## Badswan

Yes I did read the link you put up Ozzieshunni, thank you - but I've read similar articles before and I've tried to do all that stuff. I've also read most of the books she puts links to. 

That article actually says at the beginnning "I should note that I''ve not necessaily tried all of these things because I do not consider my children's sleep to be a problem [...] I get enough rest and my kids get enough rest" - where are the articles by AP parents who've been pushed to the limit by their childrens' sleep issues?


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## Ozzieshunni

I've had rough nights with Alex, including a long stretch at four months. I've never sleep trained and Alex has just come around in his own time. 

I often wonder if we put too much emphasis on sleep and our children pick up our stress and despiration. There are nights where I'm stressed and want to sleep and Alex won't go to sleep.


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## Dragonfly

Badswan said:


> So what do you do then? If AP doesn't allow for any method that could be interpreted "sleep training" and co-sleeping isn't working how do you cope? What do you do to make sure that you all get enough sleep?
> 
> I was totally open to suggestion but AP seems only to say what you can't do and doesn't give any proper suggestions for things to try!
> 
> If being an AP parent means letting my child wake all night, putting my husband at risk (as I mentioned earlier he works with machinery and being over tired was dangeous for him) and that I am guaranteed to be over tired and grouchy for the time I do get to spend with my son then I'm out!
> 
> I thought I was being a good mother trying to stick to the AP principles but no one was benefitting from the situation as it stood and AP had nothing helpful to suggest.
> 
> If any AP parents out there have any suggestions then please let me know - I'd be more than happy to hear them but as it stands AP is drawing a blank on helping my family.

I am just telling you sleep training is not AP. Many AP parents understand normal sleep patterns in their babies, even bad ones. I had a horrible sleeper with William, but he went in to his own natural sleep rhythms himself. I understand that he would do that and was there for him. Not to say that you arnt by the way but you did ask what Ap parents do.. If you find nothing helpful in AP then its not for you then. Its not your style of parenting, same as sleep training wouldn't be my style. Really does go with your frame of mind to, this to shall pass or this to has to be fixed..which one would you choose? I am not saying also what you didnt do wasnt right for you, you do whats best for your family. Just answering your original question.


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## Badswan

Sorry Dragonfly I didn't mean to sound grouchy towards you... let me ask another question though... as an AP parent what would you suggest I do if co-sleeping isn't working and my child's sleeping patterns are unmanageable?


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## Mum2b_Claire

Id maybe consider the sleep separation technique mentioned, but only with a toddler able to understand what I was saying etc.

Scarlett is not a good sleeper. But I definitely wouldn't do anything to change it before she was verbal / could understand me. I have to hold her all evening because she won't sleep without me so I can't do anything Constructive in the evening and as I'm single, if my oldest wakes and cries I'm back to square one with Scarlett which is beyond frustrating and when I'm tired myself, plain upsetting.

BUt actually, I've spent nearly a year like this and she is a joy during the day, playful, active, cheerful, being less and less 'clingy' to me every day. So to sleep train harshly now, for me, would be wasting all my efforts so far!


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## jenn2282

how do you survive them waking 1-2 hours? she has white noise. she used to self sooth untill she got her 1st cold, now she won't and i have to rock her to sleep. we co-sleep (shes in her crib in my room by my bed) I am dying she naps shitty too.

edited to add i am single


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## kittylady

I think you should go with your gut instinct as a mother. Ellie goes through phases, I know she is only 4 months but we have gone from sleeping 1-2 hours to 7 hours back to 1-2 and then back again. As frustrating as this is we have just gone with it. When she has had bad teething she stayed up till I went to bed. In the last few days she has indecated she is ready to go to bed early again by showing she is tired at 6/7 so I've put her to bed. She normally wakes between 4-8am and comes into our bed until I get up. Last night she was in our bed from 11pm because it was cold and she didnt want to sleep alone. I bf and I plan to BLW.

My sister has twin boys, she ff every 4 hours, she had them sleeping 7-7 from 8 weeks pretty much, she bed shared a few times when they were little but not very often and they have been in their own room since about 18 months, she also TW. Her children are happy and healthy, no attachment issues, lovely, well-behaved and polite.

What I'm trying to say is parenting is also about your own circumstances and you should do what works for you, as long as you love your children and do whats best they will turn out fine. You shouldn't feel guilty for a choice you've clearly thought about and I wish you all the best with the choices you make, maybe the supernanny methods will work for you. :thumbup:


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## Ozzieshunni

Okay, op asked specifically how attachment parents feel. Not parents in general. Helps to read the post. 

As for waking every one to two hours, take her out of the crib and bed share :)


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## Dragonfly

Side car cot is usually suggested. As for sleep patterns, wait it out method. Many of us have been there. William woke every hour for a long time, my boobs where so sore from him constantly feeding on me. Wasnt easy. I expected this, maybe had it worse than some. He is high needs. Alex is a totally different child. Slotted in nicely where as William woke more than him for a while after to. Both sleep fine now, you do get there in the end.


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## jenn2282

she won't bed share , she weaned herself at 4 months, i have tried:(


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## NaturalMomma

Going back to your original post you say your son wakes 2-3 times a night. While I know that is exhausting, that's actually normal for his age. Both my kids woke a few times at night until their second birthday, and then started sleeping through the night. The normal age for STTN is actually around 18 months to 3 years of age. 

If your DH needs to get his sleep I would really suggest him sleeping in a seperate room where he won't be disturbed. It won't be forever. 

I would also suggest the book "The No Cry Sleep Solution" by Elizabeth Pantely. It has many great solutions. There are two versions of the book and you'll want the toddler and preschool one.

ETA: I also wanted to add that when you're AP you understand that your children need you a lot in the first few years. They don't understand yet. They don't understand that your DH needs his sleep in order to perform correctly at work. They don't understand that if mommy doesn't get sleep she's grumpy. Young kids don't sleep like adults do, they are not designed that way. They have a sense of needing mommy/daddy 24/7. That is why most AP parents co-sleep until the child weans. Kids are demanding because they are growing and a lot of things are changing very fast, that doesn't stop at night time. They still need their parents.


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## Badswan

Thanks Natural Momma but what I didn't make clear in my OP was that yes he wakes 2-3 times per night - but sometimes for up to 4 hours at a time!!!!! I'm not convinced this is normal! Short wakings I could deal with but the 2, 3 or 4 hour stints are ridiculous! I read the No Cry Sleep Solution for babies and used a lot of the tips, it's a good book, but I think some kids are just not into being asleep and once they are in a habit which they enjoy (no matter how tiring for the parent) why would they change? Like you said they (LOs) just don't understand certain things and I've come to see that that is exactly why I needed to make a change because LO and I had different agendas which were at odds and were not, in reality, benefitting either of us - he wasn't old enough to be told and reasoned with but was also not old enough to just be punished for what he was doing as he wasn't being naughty - based on everyone's responses we've gone ahead with our version of the Super Nanny Method and it's working great - it may not be AP but I'm certain it's not damaging my child and I am sure he still feels loved and secure and I no longer feel like the siutation is out of control. He will benefit from having a happier Mummy and himself getting more sleep - I don't mind if he wakes, I'm not totally unrealistic but I had to get things a bit more reasonable for my whole families sake!

UPDATE: Super Nanny method (tailored a bit to suit our LO) has been working AMAZINGLY!!! LO woke once last night and the night before at about 2.30 and I put him back to bed with a cuddle and a kiss where he stayed and went straight back to sleep. This morning and yesterday I heard him wake at about 5.30ish and stay in his bed grumbling for a while until about 6ish at which point he came into our room. We've decided that 6ish is pretty reasonable and let him into our bed at that point where he'll snuggle around/or sleep. Result!!!!!! A couple of short wakings a night is totally managable and so I'm really, really pleased with how it's going.


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## Rachel_C

I'm really glad you've found something that is gentle and seems to be working for you.

I don't think it really matters what people say is AP or not... as far as I've read, being an attachment parent is not about rules of what you can and can't do and Dr Sears acknowledges that some things will be possible in some families and not in others and that different children will be different too. While I'm not really AP anyway, my aim when doing something that isn't normally considered part of how I'd usually try to parent is to not let the 'something different' change our relationship. So if you're into AP but also wanting/having to using gentle sleep training methods, I would just want to know that it isn't affecting your attachment.


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## Dragonfly

Personally I dont like sears or follow any one. He didnt create AP and is not the king of it. We all make up our own parenting , some tend to agree with some more than others. I happen to fall in to AP more than any other parenting. Some do some AP (in fact lots do most of AP and dont realise it). Some mix in authoritarian. It goes with your personalty. I run a very busy AP page and have a few pages on the subject on facebook and never have come across any one that does training of any sort that does AP. All are against .


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## Rachel_C

So you're telling me that all these attachment parents you know would be perfectly happy to get up 3 times a night for a couple of hours at a time with a toddler? They wouldn't mind it at all and even if it was affecting their ability to function safely and none of the 'AP' type methods had worked, they would just suck it up rather than use a gentle 'sleep training' method? God I hope these people don't drive!


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## Dragonfly

Rachel_C said:


> So you're telling me that all these attachment parents you know would be perfectly happy to get up 3 times a night for a couple of hours at a time with a toddler? They wouldn't mind it at all and even if it was affecting their ability to function safely and none of the 'AP' type methods had worked, they would just suck it up rather than use a gentle 'sleep training' method? God I hope these people don't drive!

Yes they are actually, well I cant speak for all but I know plenty and its normal to feed at night. Night time parenting etc . The driving comment was rude by the way. Rather mocking of ap parenting. I went through it with my two, baby and a toddler and will do again.


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## Ozzieshunni

Dragonfly said:


> Rachel_C said:
> 
> 
> So you're telling me that all these attachment parents you know would be perfectly happy to get up 3 times a night for a couple of hours at a time with a toddler? They wouldn't mind it at all and even if it was affecting their ability to function safely and none of the 'AP' type methods had worked, they would just suck it up rather than use a gentle 'sleep training' method? God I hope these people don't drive!
> 
> Yes they are actually, well I cant speak for all but I know plenty and its normal to feed at night. Night time parenting etc . The driving comment was rude by the way. Rather mocking of ap parenting. I went through it with my two, baby and a toddler and will do again.Click to expand...

I've done it, with jet lag and I drove :shrug:


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## NaturalMomma

Rachel_C said:


> So you're telling me that all these attachment parents you know would be perfectly happy to get up 3 times a night for a couple of hours at a time with a toddler? They wouldn't mind it at all and even if it was affecting their ability to function safely and none of the 'AP' type methods had worked, they would just suck it up rather than use a gentle 'sleep training' method? God I hope these people don't drive!

Most AP moms are SAHMs, so their sleep needs are different to those who are working mothers. Everyone functions at a different level of sleep. Some need more, some need less. My oldest only slept 45 minutes per night (that was not normal as he had tummy issues). Since I am a SAHM I didn't need to get x amount of hours per night and I could take smaller cat naps in the day (which are more beneficial to me at that time than a long stretch). 5 years later I don't sleep long stretches. I actually do get up and go to the bathroom several times a night and am usually awake for quite a bit afterwords. Sometimes I even have a snack and then brush my teeth again. I feel restful in the morning and am more than capable of driving safely.


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## Mum2b_Claire

I think I would definitely struggle with long wakings (Scarlett does do them but only rarely) and would want to do something gently to change things with a toddler.

I think my main 'thing' would be ensuring the child was never left to cry alone.

I've always thought of myself as ap but maybe I'm not. I don't mind what label i have if i am parenting respectfully. I don't think my sleep needs are completely irrelevant. My needs and hers are interrelated.


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## urchin

I think we're arguing about labels and interpretations of labels here ... which probably isn't very useful (rather like vegetarians trying to out-veggie each other over who eats cheese of unspecified origins)

The important thing is that you've found something that works for your LO, which doesn't involve them sobbing themselves to sleep.
Whether it's AP or not doesn't matter, nor does deciding whether or not you have to give up your AP badge.

It also doesn't matter if others can survive on very little sleep/ cat naps through the day' if you can't, you can't :hugs:


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## babyloulou

Rachel_C said:


> So you're telling me that all these attachment parents you know would be perfectly happy to get up 3 times a night for a couple of hours at a time with a toddler? They wouldn't mind it at all and even if it was affecting their ability to function safely and none of the 'AP' type methods had worked, they would just suck it up rather than use a gentle 'sleep training' method? God I hope these people don't drive!

I have the worst sleeper EVER! He is 22 months and is up every 30-60 minutes for boob every night. He doesn't sleep well with us or in his bed- but at least with us I can doze on and off while he faffs around.

I'm not going to lie to you I am absolutely knackered after nearly 2 years of it BUT I would never do anything except AP style night times as I don't agree with any other style. OH gets up with him about 6 and gives me another hour and a half in bed- then I sometimes nap with him in my bed at lunch time if we've had a horrendous night. 

I know Ben is not "normal" at sleeping however and that most APers actually get MORE sleep by co-sleeping/bed sharing. I personally think this is just the short straw we drew with his sleep though and we have up suck it up and deal with it until he's developmentally ready to sleep longer x


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## Badswan

This has ended up being such an interesting thread! Thank you all for your input. 

Re: the driving thing - you should know yourself whether you are safe to drive and err on the side of caution - there have been plenty of days where I've not driven cos I'm too tired and don't feel safe. 
What's the point of being an AP parent (or any kind of parent) if you kill youself, someone else or your kids in a car crash??? It's not like you are a better AP parent if you let your kid keep you up all night and then drive - sure stay up all night but then DON'T DRIVE!!! (I'm sorry to say but driving with jet lag sounds very irresponsible to me)


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## Dragonfly

You know I have never felt so tired I felt like anything dangerous at all. I dont know why people assume AP parents are dangerously tired? I lay in bed and fed if I was tired and slept with my children. Even when Alex came along , William came for naps with us. And they are good sleepers now. I thought bed sharing parents got more sleep, least I think I did as I didnt fancy getting out of the bed to run about and my kids knew where I was. I think all parents no matter what your style you are tired.


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## Badswan

I don't assume all AP parents are dangerously tired - I'm just saying that if you are dangerously tired then don't drive - AP parent or not. 

It is certinaly NOT true that all co-sleepers get more sleep either! We co-slept for 18 months and plenty of my non-co sleeping friends were getting WAY more sleep than me! 

Also, some parents who value the AP principles don't have the priviledge of being able to stay at home with their kids and nap during the day every day! Some of the AP SAHMs might feel differently if they had to go out to work all week - you might WANT to just roll with your childs sleeping patterns but if you need to do a job to put food on the table and to keep a roof over your heads and you can't do your job because you are so tired you might find yourselves disappointed with the options AP has to offer! 

Many of the AP principles look to styles of parenting from non-developed countries, and parenting in the past, for inspiration - AP parenting wouldn't need a label if we all lived in tribes cos that's what we'd all just do naturally. The fact is though that we don't and some people need to work but want to maintain an "attached" relationship with their kids - but we have to do it within the constraints of modern life and for a huge number of us that means going to work. 

AP shouldn't just be for SAHM - and I didn't think it was - but it seems like it doesn't actually cover some of the problems which are experienced by working mums - problems which seem, in general, to be easier to deal with if you stay at home. I doubt I would have needed to start this thread if I'd have been a SAHM!


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## Dragonfly

It is easier if you are a sahm but not that you cant be AP , just probably harder. I done AP before I knew what it was, like months in to it I had no idea it had a name I just called it parenting my way. I wasnt brought up this way either.


----------



## SarahBear

Badswan said:


> By the "Super Nanny Method" I mean the Sleep Seperation Technique and the Stay in Bed technique shown on the TV show Supernanny. More info here and here
> 
> (I'll assume you know what I mean by attachment parents!)
> 
> My son is 21 months old and I'm 5 months pregnant. He wakes 2 or 3 times a night and either my husband or I are ending up sleeping with him every night. Something has got to change before the new baby arrives otherwise we'll all suffer!
> 
> Several friends have said to just shut the door on him and "leave him to it" i.e. let him cry it out - but I can't do this - I just don't agree with it.
> 
> We practice a lot of the values of attachment parenting and CIO just isn't right for us - but none of my softly softly method are having any effect.
> 
> I need a method that's strong enough to work as I fee like I'm just being a push over at the moment and I know that's not what attachment parenting is about!
> 
> So what do you reckon to the Super Nanny Method?

There are two "Supernanny" methods that I'm familiar with. The first is to put the child to bed and when they get out, bring them back and tell them it's time for bed. Then from there you just bring them back without saying anything, each time they get up. The other method might be more "attachment parenting" friendly. It involves slowly removing yourself from the room. You stay in the room but don't interact. This shows them that you're there, but sends the message that you mean it about bed time. Over time you slowly remove yourself from the room. Because you provided the security to your child that you're there, they feel secure in sleeping in their own room. I don't know the specifics on how to do the last one, but it's more age appropriate for young children and it helps establish that attachment and security that's crucial in attachment parenting, before establishing independence.


----------



## babyloulou

Badswan said:


> I don't assume all AP parents are dangerously tired - I'm just saying that if you are dangerously tired then don't drive - AP parent or not.
> 
> It is certinaly NOT true that all co-sleepers get more sleep either! We co-slept for 18 months and plenty of my non-co sleeping friends were getting WAY more sleep than me!
> 
> Also, some parents who value the AP principles don't have the priviledge of being able to stay at home with their kids and nap during the day every day! Some of the AP SAHMs might feel differently if they had to go out to work all week - you might WANT to just roll with your childs sleeping patterns but if you need to do a job to put food on the table and to keep a roof over your heads and you can't do your job because you are so tired you might find yourselves disappointed with the options AP has to offer!
> 
> Many of the AP principles look to styles of parenting from non-developed countries, and parenting in the past, for inspiration - AP parenting wouldn't need a label if we all lived in tribes cos that's what we'd all just do naturally. The fact is though that we don't and some people need to work but want to maintain an "attached" relationship with their kids - but we have to do it within the constraints of modern life and for a huge number of us that means going to work.
> 
> AP shouldn't just be for SAHM - and I didn't think it was - but it seems like it doesn't actually cover some of the problems which are experienced by working mums - problems which seem, in general, to be easier to deal with if you stay at home. I doubt I would have needed to start this thread if I'd have been a SAHM!

I am in a big AP group on Facebook and there are loads of working mums in there. They all co-sleep and have broken nights and good nights - they all manage x


----------



## Laucu

SarahBear said:


> Badswan said:
> 
> 
> By the "Super Nanny Method" I mean the Sleep Seperation Technique and the Stay in Bed technique shown on the TV show Supernanny. More info here and here
> 
> (I'll assume you know what I mean by attachment parents!)
> 
> My son is 21 months old and I'm 5 months pregnant. He wakes 2 or 3 times a night and either my husband or I are ending up sleeping with him every night. Something has got to change before the new baby arrives otherwise we'll all suffer!
> 
> Several friends have said to just shut the door on him and "leave him to it" i.e. let him cry it out - but I can't do this - I just don't agree with it.
> 
> We practice a lot of the values of attachment parenting and CIO just isn't right for us - but none of my softly softly method are having any effect.
> 
> I need a method that's strong enough to work as I fee like I'm just being a push over at the moment and I know that's not what attachment parenting is about!
> 
> So what do you reckon to the Super Nanny Method?
> 
> There are two "Supernanny" methods that I'm familiar with. The first is to put the child to bed and when they get out, bring them back and tell them it's time for bed. Then from there you just bring them back without saying anything, each time they get up. The other method might be more "attachment parenting" friendly. It involves slowly removing yourself from the room. You stay in the room but don't interact. This shows them that you're there, but sends the message that you mean it about bed time. Over time you slowly remove yourself from the room. Because you provided the security to your child that you're there, they feel secure in sleeping in their own room. I don't know the specifics on how to do the last one, but it's more age appropriate for young children and it helps establish that attachment and security that's crucial in attachment parenting, before establishing independence.Click to expand...

Yes, the sleep separation method certainly worked beautifully for Emma as it was a gradual thing rather than a sudden "where the hell is mummy and daddy?!?!". Whilst I don't consider myself to be AP, The CIO or CC method wasn't suitable for us or our situation. 

We've been lucky with Jack as he has always (so far!) slept well in his own bed and gone off to sleep by himself. He actually gets annoyed if we try to interfere!


----------



## NaturalMomma

Badswan said:


> This has ended up being such an interesting thread! Thank you all for your input.
> 
> Re: the driving thing - you should know yourself whether you are safe to drive and err on the side of caution - there have been plenty of days where I've not driven cos I'm too tired and don't feel safe.
> What's the point of being an AP parent (or any kind of parent) if you kill youself, someone else or your kids in a car crash??? It's not like you are a better AP parent if you let your kid keep you up all night and then drive - sure stay up all night but then DON'T DRIVE!!! (I'm sorry to say but driving with jet lag sounds very irresponsible to me)

Seriously? I'm sure everyone, no matter what style parenting they do, will not drive if they are falling asleep. AP has nothing to do with this statement at all, it goes for every parent. AP or mainstream parenting, you'll still have days of bad sleep, that is just part of being a PARENT. 



Badswan said:


> I don't assume all AP parents are dangerously tired - I'm just saying that if you are dangerously tired then don't drive - AP parent or not.
> 
> It is certinaly NOT true that all co-sleepers get more sleep either! We co-slept for 18 months and plenty of my non-co sleeping friends were getting WAY more sleep than me!
> 
> Also, some parents who value the AP principles don't have the priviledge of being able to stay at home with their kids and nap during the day every day! Some of the AP SAHMs might feel differently if they had to go out to work all week - you might WANT to just roll with your childs sleeping patterns but if you need to do a job to put food on the table and to keep a roof over your heads and you can't do your job because you are so tired you might find yourselves disappointed with the options AP has to offer!
> 
> Many of the AP principles look to styles of parenting from non-developed countries, and parenting in the past, for inspiration - AP parenting wouldn't need a label if we all lived in tribes cos that's what we'd all just do naturally. The fact is though that we don't and some people need to work but want to maintain an "attached" relationship with their kids - but we have to do it within the constraints of modern life and for a huge number of us that means going to work.
> 
> AP shouldn't just be for SAHM - and I didn't think it was - but it seems like it doesn't actually cover some of the problems which are experienced by working mums - problems which seem, in general, to be easier to deal with if you stay at home. I doubt I would have needed to start this thread if I'd have been a SAHM!

AP is for anyone who believes in the principles, many AP families are working families. However, it is probably easier to AP and be a SAHM, and most of the AP families I personally know have a SAHM or WAHM. 

It really feels like AP is under attack in this thread. You asked what AP families would do, we responded. Just because we would do something different doesn't mean we also do dangerous things like drive when we're too tired.


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## Ozzieshunni

Thank you! I was not falling asleep and I was very aware of what I was doing! :growlmad: Insinuating that I was endangering my child? Not on. Just not on.


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## Mum2b_Claire

It depends what job you have as to whether being a sahm is easier after a bad night. After a bad night with ruby I used to go to work for a rest! But I was sat at a desk for large parts of my day and could drink unlimited coffee ;)


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## Badswan

babyloulou said:


> I am in a big AP group on Facebook and there are loads of working mums in there. They all co-sleep and have broken nights and good nights - they all manage x

Right so I'm the ONLY one who can't handle it!? Seriously - that's not helpful. Maybe the ones who can't manage keep quiet cos they are afraid of being told stuff like that - way to make someone feel like a failure!!!!


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## Ozzieshunni

Well, you were making some pretty wide generalizations. I wouldn't blame the poster. Maybe AP is just not for you :shrug: it's not a one size fits all.


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## Badswan

NaturalMomma said:


> It really feels like AP is under attack in this thread. You asked what AP families would do, we responded. Just because we would do something different doesn't mean we also do dangerous things like drive when we're too tired.

I'm not saying you would all drive when too tired, I never said anything like that - I was addressing a specific post! Another poster said something like... "I did it [i.e. stayed up at night with their child] and had jet lag and drove" with a little shrugging emoticon thingy - to me that's irresponsible and nothing to do with AP. I'm not attacking AP in saying that.

To me this thread has brought to light certain areas where I feel AP lacks a sufficient answer - thoughout the thread I've been open to suggestion but it sounds like AP has only 2 suggested ways of dealing with a child's sleep issues: co-sleep or put up with it. It seems to me also that putting up with it is a lot harder, in general, for working mums. These are observations I have made based on reading everyone's responses - not attacks on AP.


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## Badswan

Ozzieshunni said:


> you were making some pretty wide generalizations.

I'd be grateful for a quote of these "wide generalisations" as I was very careful when I wrote my post to try not to do that so I'd like the opportunity to explain as I've evidently been misunderstood.


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## Ozzieshunni

Perhaps generalizations was the wrong word. You have really attacked some AP moms for their opinions about sleep training and supernanny methods. They really are not AP because they cause you to ignore your child's sleeptime emotional needs. That's all I'm going to say. I'm not going to sugar coat anything.


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## Badswan

I've not attacked anyone!!! Quote me please - if you are going to make accusations like that then back them up at least!!!


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## Ozzieshunni

Read back on your posts. I don't have the time right now. Sorry. Unsubbing.


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## Badswan

Whatever - I've just read back over all the posts and can clearly see this isn't about AP anyway this is about me saying I thought it was irresponsible to drive with jet lag and after being up during the night. That has nothing what-so-ever to do with AP and I still think it's irresponsible and I do think it is dangerous. I can't believe anyone would think it wasn't TBH.

Re: The original thread and AP... Over and over I've thanked everyone for their replies and taken them on board but I can't be expected not to make any observations based on those replies - isn't the whole point in forums to get conversations going?


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## babyloulou

Badswan said:


> babyloulou said:
> 
> 
> I am in a big AP group on Facebook and there are loads of working mums in there. They all co-sleep and have broken nights and good nights - they all manage x
> 
> Right so I'm the ONLY one who can't handle it!? Seriously - that's not helpful. Maybe the ones who can't manage keep quiet cos they are afraid of being told stuff like that - way to make someone feel like a failure!!!!Click to expand...

No- that wasn't my point at all. I wrote that in response to another poster saying only SAHM would manage APing. It's simply not true. 

As for your comment about AP having no answers or advice- no you are right it doesn't. AP is about totally following babies cues until THEY are ready for sleep. There are no "techniques" or "answers" in APing as those things are what APing is fundamentally against. My 22 month old never sleeps more than 30-60 mins at a time (BFing him now for the 4th time this evening!) but the parenting style I've chosen is to "put up with that". 

If you are looking for solutions then APing isn't for you. There is ONE make-it-easier solution in APing and that is co-sleeping. Everything else is led by the baby.

You seem to be taking offence at us saying this instead of stepping back and realising that everything you are typing suggests you are not wanting to actually do AP and maybe are looking for the gentlest style of sleep training instead- which is fine but is no reason to attack our choices of just following baby and "putting up" with the hands we are dealt- because YES- that is exactly what we do xx


----------



## Dragonfly

babyloulou said:


> Badswan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> babyloulou said:
> 
> 
> I am in a big AP group on Facebook and there are loads of working mums in there. They all co-sleep and have broken nights and good nights - they all manage x
> 
> Right so I'm the ONLY one who can't handle it!? Seriously - that's not helpful. Maybe the ones who can't manage keep quiet cos they are afraid of being told stuff like that - way to make someone feel like a failure!!!!Click to expand...
> 
> No- that wasn't my point at all. I wrote that in response to another poster saying only SAHM would manage APing. It's simply not true.
> 
> As for your comment about AP having no answers or advice- no you are right it doesn't. AP is about totally following babies cues until THEY are ready for sleep. There are no "techniques" or "answers" in APing as those things are what APing is fundamentally against. My 22 month old never sleeps more than 30-60 mins at a time (BFing him now for the 4th time this evening!) but the parenting style I've chosen is to "put up with that".
> 
> If you are looking for solutions then APing isn't for you. There is ONE make-it-easier solution in APing and that is co-sleeping. Everything else is led by the baby.
> 
> You seem to be taking offence at us saying this instead of stepping back and realising that everything you are typing suggests you are not wanting to actually do AP and maybe are looking for the gentlest style of sleep training instead- which is fine but is no reason to attack our choices of just following baby and "putting up" with the hands we are dealt- because YES- that is exactly what we do xxClick to expand...

I agree with everything this Lady has said in this thread. :thumbup:


----------



## NaturalMomma

Badswan said:


> NaturalMomma said:
> 
> 
> It really feels like AP is under attack in this thread. You asked what AP families would do, we responded. Just because we would do something different doesn't mean we also do dangerous things like drive when we're too tired.
> 
> I'm not saying you would all drive when too tired, I never said anything like that - I was addressing a specific post! Another poster said something like... "I did it [i.e. stayed up at night with their child] and had jet lag and drove" with a little shrugging emoticon thingy - to me that's irresponsible and nothing to do with AP. I'm not attacking AP in saying that.
> 
> To me this thread has brought to light certain areas where I feel AP lacks a sufficient answer - thoughout the thread I've been open to suggestion but it sounds like AP has only 2 suggested ways of dealing with a child's sleep issues: co-sleep or put up with it. It seems to me also that putting up with it is a lot harder, in general, for working mums. These are observations I have made based on reading everyone's responses - not attacks on AP.Click to expand...

Because for that paticular person she wasn't overly tired or dangerously tired. It's not irresponsable of someone to drive with jet leg (most people do when getting off a plane and renting a car) or for someone who doesn't sleep many hours a night, because *they are not tired*. It's different for everyone. And all you said was AP this and that, which was lumping all APers together and making it seem like we do dangerous things so we can claim the AP title. It's so far away from the actual truth.

And no, you're not the only one who has horrible bed time struggles. I have friends who do, some are AP some are not. Sometimes that is just how the dice rolls and it really sucks :hugs:

I don't get the point of this. You asked a question for AP moms, AP moms answered.

ETA: My DH is a Pilot. He drives home every night after flying for several hours.


----------



## NaturalMomma

babyloulou said:


> Badswan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> babyloulou said:
> 
> 
> I am in a big AP group on Facebook and there are loads of working mums in there. They all co-sleep and have broken nights and good nights - they all manage x
> 
> Right so I'm the ONLY one who can't handle it!? Seriously - that's not helpful. Maybe the ones who can't manage keep quiet cos they are afraid of being told stuff like that - way to make someone feel like a failure!!!!Click to expand...
> 
> No- that wasn't my point at all. I wrote that in response to another poster saying only SAHM would manage APing. It's simply not true.
> 
> As for your comment about AP having no answers or advice- no you are right it doesn't. AP is about totally following babies cues until THEY are ready for sleep. There are no "techniques" or "answers" in APing as those things are what APing is fundamentally against. My 22 month old never sleeps more than 30-60 mins at a time (BFing him now for the 4th time this evening!) but the parenting style I've chosen is to "put up with that".
> 
> If you are looking for solutions then APing isn't for you. There is ONE make-it-easier solution in APing and that is co-sleeping. Everything else is led by the baby.
> 
> You seem to be taking offence at us saying this instead of stepping back and realising that everything you are typing suggests you are not wanting to actually do AP and maybe are looking for the gentlest style of sleep training instead- which is fine but is no reason to attack our choices of just following baby and "putting up" with the hands we are dealt- because YES- that is exactly what we do xxClick to expand...

Completely agree.


----------



## Sam Pearson

Badswan said:


> My son is 21 months old and I'm 5 months pregnant. He wakes 2 or 3 times a night and either my husband or I are ending up sleeping with him every night. Something has got to change before the new baby arrives otherwise we'll all suffer!

It doesn't sound like sleep is the real issue here. It sounds from your post that you and your husband don't want to sleep with your child. Why don't you want to sleep with your child? It might be helpful to delve into why that is the case because the most logical and easiest change would be to cosleep. 

You could either set up your main bedroom for family sleeping or set things up so that you or your husband can sleep with your toddler. Since a new baby is coming soon personally I'd choose hubby sleeping with your toddler - when I am pregnant, sometime towards the end of my pregnancies, my husband starts sleeping with our youngest in preparation for the babies arrival and it also means I get a better night sleep having the bed to myself with my big belly. The main thing with cosleeping is to have things are best set up so that everybody is comfortable and everybody has enough room. This is the best way of ensuring everybody gets a good night sleep. If you are cosleeping but not set up for it you will struggle.

I also found it essential to find ways to catch up on sleep after particularly bad nights. I did this by napping during the day with baby (I work from home) or by having a nap when my dh got home from work or by having a sleep in on the weekend when my dh was home.



Badswan said:


> We practice a lot of the values of attachment parenting and CIO just isn't right for us - but none of my softly softly method are having any effect.

Attachment Parenting isn't a part time gig. APing is parenting in a way that promotes optimal attachment. If you are doing some things that promote attachment and others that promote detachment you are going to struggle. 

If you are trying to address your own lack of sleep at your child's expense that's not APing. However, it sounds like your son is not getting a proper nights sleep either. If your toddler is waking 2-3 times through the night that is normal. If he is taking hours to get back to sleep each time that's not normal. I would definitely address why this is before sleep training. If an adult sleeping with him seems to do the trick then again the logical and easiest thing to do would be to get set up properly for cosleeping and you can all enjoy a good nights sleep.



SarahBear said:


> The other method might be more "attachment parenting" friendly. It involves slowly removing yourself from the room. You stay in the room but don't interact. This shows them that you're there, but sends the message that you mean it about bed time. Over time you slowly remove yourself from the room. Because you provided the security to your child that you're there, they feel secure in sleeping in their own room. I don't know the specifics on how to do the last one, but it's more age appropriate for young children and it helps establish that attachment and security that's crucial in attachment parenting, before establishing independence.

This method does sound more gentle to the child than the first, however, with a strong attachment a child will feel safe and secure and therefor seize their independence and will naturally wean themselves from the family bed without parents having to coerce them into their own room at night - that's what all of my older children did and I see signs in my youngest that she is doing the same.


----------



## Badswan

Please I wish everyone would stop saying I'm attacking people and/or AP - it's not intended that way and I've tried very hard not to have it come across that way. 

It just surprises me and disappoints me that AP doesn't address the issues that I'm facing - I've always valued the AP principles but it feels like when things get difficult there is no flexibility and if you can't cope then it's just "not for you" - it feels to me like it's a very constricted set of values whereas I had always thought it was more "inclusive" than that. Surely the needs of the parent and the child are intrinsicly interlinked? The way it was going in my household was being detrimental to all involved - surely AP cannot advocate continuing down a route you know is doing your family no good - and yet there seems to be no other choices within AP.

I'm not criticising your, or anyone's, personal parenting choices, I wish I could do the same - I wish I could cope with the night wakings and that co-sleeping had continued to work for us, but I do feel that the attitude of "well everyone else can do it - if you can't then you are just not cut out for it" is really defeatist and not helpful to those struggling but who want to keep to the AP principles.

I feel that if the AP principles cannot help me (or anyone with these issues) when I've sincerely tried everything AP suggests then it's AP which falls short. I feel that AP has failed me and not that I have failed at AP.

Thanks again to everyone for their input but I'm unsubscribing from the thread now as it's getting away from what I wanted to find out/ learn. 

If anyone has any AP suggestions which haven't already been made I'm still open to hear them so feel free to PM me but I've heard enough of "co-sleep or put-up-with-it".


----------



## Dragonfly

You didnt fail at AP it just dosnt suit you if its not working for you. Certain people fine it easy as it fits with their personality and dont see things as problems that need fixed. They view things differently. Say i tried a more mainstream approach, I wouldn't get on well. I couldnt do it. It wouldn't meet my needs of a peaceful life. yet that could work out for someone else, see what I mean. Most of us went through all this night waking and didnt see it as a problem that needed solving, instead knowing this to will pass. And meeting needs of our babies. If you think you need to solve this problem with sleep training then thats why you arnt finding the answers in AP. Its not about that thats why. you are searching in a parenting style that dosnt suit your needs.


----------



## NaturalMomma

I agree with PP. It's not that there isn't flexability, it's that we don't see things as a problem that need to be fixed. We see it more as a phase than anything, atleast in my experience.

And you can still believe in the AP principles and apply them to your parenting even if this one area you're not AP on.


----------



## Sam Pearson

Badswan said:


> . Surely the needs of the parent and the child are intrinsicly interlinked?

This is true but this ideal falls down when parents bring things into the picture that biologically babies are not primed to expect - things like being separated from their primary carer for extended periods (during the day or night) and things like cars where they aren't able to be held and have to be strapped in to a car seat. These are modern situations that don't mesh well with attachment parenting because the babies being born today aren't that much different (biologically speaking) to cave babies and they know nothing of prams and cots and the rest and their instincts resist them - or rather they resist being separate from their primary carer.

In the case the primary carer is working out of the home during the day, the AP recommendation would definitely be to try to make up for that separation by cosleeping purely based on baby getting optimum physical contact with the primary carer. This is why my dh loved cosleeping with ours as it was a way to reconnect after a day separated because he was working out of the home. A lot of serious bonding happens during the night time and that is what AP is about - promoting attachment. 

You say AP isn't flexible but you don't seem to be very flexible with how you parent your toddler if you aren't willing to try cosleeping when we are advising you that it is a way of resolving your sleeping issues without damaging your baby. It's not logical ask for non AP advice from APers then complain that our advice is too AP? I don't think you are attacking AP but it does feel like you would like us to tell you that you can sleep train and that would still be true to APing and that's just not the case. Put simply cosleeping promotes attachment and sleep training promotes detachment.

I agree with NaturalMomma, you can choose to utilise only some of the AP principles but you can't expect to get the same results. If AP or 100% AP doesn't suit you then don't do it and don't beat yourself up about it. Do what suits you. That's what most of us are doing including the APers here.


----------



## Ozzieshunni

Sam Pearson said:


> Badswan said:
> 
> 
> . Surely the needs of the parent and the child are intrinsicly interlinked?
> 
> This is true but this ideal falls down when parents bring things into the picture that biologically babies are not primed to expect - things like being separated from their primary carer for extended periods (during the day or night) and things like cars where they aren't able to be held and have to be strapped in to a car seat. These are modern situations that don't mesh well with attachment parenting because the babies being born today aren't that much different (biologically speaking) to cave babies and they know nothing of prams and cots and the rest and their instincts resist them - or rather they resist being separate from their primary carer.
> 
> In the case the primary carer is working out of the home during the day, the AP recommendation would definitely be to try to make up for that separation by cosleeping purely based on baby getting optimum physical contact with the primary carer. This is why my dh loved cosleeping with ours as it was a way to reconnect after a day separated because he was working out of the home. A lot of serious bonding happens during the night time and that is what AP is about - promoting attachment.
> 
> You say AP isn't flexible but you don't seem to be very flexible with how you parent your toddler if you aren't willing to try cosleeping when we are advising you that it is a way of resolving your sleeping issues without damaging your baby. It's not logical ask for non AP advice from APers then complain that our advice is too AP? I don't think you are attacking AP but it does feel like you would like us to tell you that you can sleep train and that would still be true to APing and that's just not the case. Put simply cosleeping promotes attachment and sleep training promotes detachment.
> 
> I agree with NaturalMomma, you can choose to utilise only some of the AP principles but you can't expect to get the same results. If AP or 100% AP doesn't suit you then don't do it and don't beat yourself up about it. Do what suits you. That's what most of us are doing including the APers here.Click to expand...

Very well said.


----------



## NaturalMomma

^^ Exactly.

The needs of a baby are not the same as the needs of the parent. Eating, sleeping, etc are all needs that we have. But they are different for a baby and a parent. A baby has extra needs like being close to his/her mother and father, eating on demand for optimal health and growth, being cared for 24/7 and so on. The cave baby and today's baby are the same, the only thing is different is the parents. Parents are now expected to work 8 or so hours from home atleast 5 days a week, many women are no longer SAHMs, and we live in a convienence world. Formula, strollers, cribs, etc all promote detachment (that doesn't mean you're not bonded with your babies if you use those things) and we have strayed away from the most natural and biological norms. Not only that but new parents are basically told from parenting books, friends, family and Doctors to get the baby on a schedule that is more convienient for the parents, not the baby. 

Since we have changed the norms of today, but the biological norms of the baby has stayed the same, we end up with babies who have sleeping problems, babies who have colic and so on.


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## Mum2b_Claire

NaturalMomma said:


> ^^ Exactly.
> 
> The needs of a baby are not the same as the needs of the parent. Eating, sleeping, etc are all needs that we have. But they are different for a baby and a parent. A baby has extra needs like being close to his/her mother and father, eating on demand for optimal health and growth, being cared for 24/7 and so on. The cave baby and today's baby are the same, the only thing is different is the parents. Parents are now expected to work 8 or so hours from home atleast 5 days a week, many women are no longer SAHMs, and we live in a convienence world. Formula, strollers, cribs, etc all promote detachment (that doesn't mean you're not bonded with your babies if you use those things) and we have strayed away from the most natural and biological norms. Not only that but new parents are basically told from parenting books, friends, family and Doctors to get the baby on a schedule that is more convienient for the parents, not the baby.
> 
> Since we have changed the norms of today, but the biological norms of the baby has stayed the same, we end up with babies who have sleeping problems, babies who have colic and so on.

I need to print this out and hand out to all my relatives this Christmas before they.start on me about scarlett's sleep!


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## maisiemoo

My daughter went through a phase at approx 19/20 months where she requested her own and she simply couldn't sleep with us amymore. She would remain awake for hours on end, more often than not playing. Whilst I didn't mind and became quite edept at lengthily night time awakenings, it was a problem for my partner who struggled to sleep and struggled more so without it. 

My first step was to read up on sleep circles. This helped me to understand in part of what the night time awakenings were about. It reaffirmed my belief that natural awake/ sleep cycles are varied and that it's quite normal to have periods throughout the night where you are quite simply awake, thus promoting empathy and acceptance of the situation. 

The next step was figuring out how to resolve the needs of my family. My daughter wanting her own bed, yet still wanting mummy's presence and my partners need for sleep. The resolve was that I moved into my daughters room for a while, sometimes sleeping in her cot bed (very cramped) when she wanted me and at other times on the floor. As time moved on, my daughter felt more settled in her room and I gradually moved out. I never left her during her awake periods and did everything from rocking, singing, stroking her hair, sleeping in her room etc to promote sleep. 

My daughter is now 2.7 months and for the most part sleeps beautifully. Since the period I have described she has always preferred and slept better in her own bed. Whilst what we did was not ap, it was a very gentle approach and always looked to keep/maintain the connection. It wasn't a quick fix either. There are many reasons why toddlers don't sleep, for my daughter it is often developmental. From my experience to understand and accept night times awakenings as normal and part of the package really helped me to manage my expecations and deal with the situation appropriately, ensuring that i met the needs of my daughter and partner, without compromising my parenting principles.


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## xSin

Badswan said:


> Thanks to all who have replied to this thread.
> 
> To the people saying go back to co-sleeping... *deciding to move LO to his own bed was a big decision not taken lightly but co-sleeping just wasn't working for any of us. LO was waking a lot and I work full time and was suffering and becoming depressed through lack of sleep - when I became pregnant I had horrendous morning sickness for the first three months and was getting up and down in the night and disturbing everyone. Also my husband is a cabinet maker and works with dangerous machinery and we felt that the levels of sleep we were all getting were becoming not just inconvenient but dangerous.* I would have loved to keep LO in with us but something had to change. Initially he took very well to his own bed and actually started sleeping though, which he had never done before, but over the past couple of months he's been getting worse and worse.
> 
> To those who say CIO... I get where you are coming from but I already feel a huge amount of guilt that I have to be away from my son all day working - the CIO method is just not something I feel capable of doing on top of that.
> 
> Thanks again to you all x x x x


The bit in bold has stood out to me throughout this entire thread and I'm not sure if others have spotted it but I'll be honest, I'm full on shocked at some of the responses in here? It seems to me that the OP's situation extends past "simply not wanting to co-sleep" when it gets to the point where safety is involved. 

Until this thread I've always valued the values of AP, however I'm really not thrilled about the way some of the posts come across where it feels as though because this one aspect of AP isn't working for the OP, then she's getting kicked out of the club with statements like "If you don't do it this way then AP isn't for you" -- As if other principles of AP suddenly are rendered invaluable to the child's well being and upbringing experience? 

I so strongly disagree that if in this one instance she isn't able to make it work that she can't follow Attachment parenting principles in other areas of her child's upbringing and yet that's exactly how so many of these posts are coming across (At least to me they are).

This is exactly why I hate "labels" -- It ends up seeming so cliquey whether intentional or otherwise. The one thing that I know for sure about parenting is that there IS no "one answer that fits everyone" and I don't like seeing a parent being pushed out of the "AP Club" simply because in this one instance, it isn't working. 

@ the OP -- I have no answers for you about the Super Nanny method (though by the thread it seems like you've perhaps found a good solution) -- I suspect when our LO moves to her own room that I will carry on getting her to sleep the way I always have which is to put her down sleepy but tired and then putter about in the room. My daughter is very happy & secure and has no problems going to sleep 99.9% of the time. She's still in our room but in her own bed.... it sounds like you're not having troubles with the initial bedtime but rather the night wakings being extended... without any apparent reason. 

The only thing that I can think of is the oh so commonly asked question in other sleep threads across this board which is "What are your LO's naps like?" -- Is it possible that he is napping too much during the day? Have you tried dropping a nap to 'fill in the blanks' so to speak where he's simply not tired & not sleeping at night? 

Hope whatever you decide, ends up working well for you & your family :)


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## NaturalMomma

xSin said:


> Badswan said:
> 
> 
> Thanks to all who have replied to this thread.
> 
> To the people saying go back to co-sleeping... *deciding to move LO to his own bed was a big decision not taken lightly but co-sleeping just wasn't working for any of us. LO was waking a lot and I work full time and was suffering and becoming depressed through lack of sleep - when I became pregnant I had horrendous morning sickness for the first three months and was getting up and down in the night and disturbing everyone. Also my husband is a cabinet maker and works with dangerous machinery and we felt that the levels of sleep we were all getting were becoming not just inconvenient but dangerous.* I would have loved to keep LO in with us but something had to change. Initially he took very well to his own bed and actually started sleeping though, which he had never done before, but over the past couple of months he's been getting worse and worse.
> 
> To those who say CIO... I get where you are coming from but I already feel a huge amount of guilt that I have to be away from my son all day working - the CIO method is just not something I feel capable of doing on top of that.
> 
> Thanks again to you all x x x x
> 
> 
> The bit in bold has stood out to me throughout this entire thread and I'm not sure if others have spotted it but I'll be honest, I'm full on shocked at some of the responses in here? It seems to me that the OP's situation extends past "simply not wanting to co-sleep" when it gets to the point where safety is involved.
> 
> *Until this thread I've always valued the values of AP, however I'm really not thrilled about the way some of the posts come across where it feels as though because this one aspect of AP isn't working for the OP, then she's getting kicked out of the club with statements like "If you don't do it this way then AP isn't for you" -- As if other principles of AP suddenly are rendered invaluable to the child's well being and upbringing experience?
> 
> I so strongly disagree that if in this one instance she isn't able to make it work that she can't follow Attachment parenting principles in other areas of her child's upbringing and yet that's exactly how so many of these posts are coming across (At least to me they are).*
> 
> This is exactly why I hate "labels" -- It ends up seeming so cliquey whether intentional or otherwise. The one thing that I know for sure about parenting is that there IS no "one answer that fits everyone" and I don't like seeing a parent being pushed out of the "AP Club" simply because in this one instance, it isn't working.
> 
> @ the OP -- I have no answers for you about the Super Nanny method (though by the thread it seems like you've perhaps found a good solution) -- I suspect when our LO moves to her own room that I will carry on getting her to sleep the way I always have which is to put her down sleepy but tired and then putter about in the room. My daughter is very happy & secure and has no problems going to sleep 99.9% of the time. She's still in our room but in her own bed.... it sounds like you're not having troubles with the initial bedtime but rather the night wakings being extended... without any apparent reason.
> 
> The only thing that I can think of is the oh so commonly asked question in other sleep threads across this board which is "What are your LO's naps like?" -- Is it possible that he is napping too much during the day? Have you tried dropping a nap to 'fill in the blanks' so to speak where he's simply not tired & not sleeping at night?
> 
> Hope whatever you decide, ends up working well for you & your family :)Click to expand...

That's not it though. She asked what AP moms would do, those of use who are AP responded with what we would do, and then it became what felt like an attack on us because we would choose to do something differently. You can still be AP and not co-sleep/bed-share. No one is taking her AP card away, we were just explaining why we would decide to continue to co-sleep/bed-share.


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## Sam Pearson

xSin said:


> The bit in bold has stood out to me throughout this entire thread and I'm not sure if others have spotted it but I'll be honest, I'm full on shocked at some of the responses in here? It seems to me that the OP's situation extends past "simply not wanting to co-sleep" when it gets to the point where safety is involved. :)

That is why it was suggested that her dh sleep elsewhere. Instead of moving the baby into their own room and expecting them to sleep solo you can more easily move the adult to their own room and expect them to sleep solo. This is very common and what myself and almost all of my AP friends have done for some periods when the children are little.

Nobody said the OP couldn't practice AP in other areas of her life - actually it was said numerous times that she doesn't need to practice AP 100% and should just practice those aspects of AP that suit her. All that was said is that sleep training isn't in keeping with AP ideals which is a fact - by definition AP ideals are those practices that promote attachment and sleep training doesn't promote attachment.


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## jenn2282

ok i have to stop reading to say, no AP parents get attacked all the time but you don't seem to care about them


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## jenn2282

i think you should do what works for you and your kids and not worry about others.


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## aliss

Badswan said:


> *It just surprises me and disappoints me that AP doesn't address the issues that I'm facing *- I've always valued the AP principles but it feels like when things get difficult there is no flexibility and if you can't cope then it's just "not for you" - it feels to me like it's a very constricted set of values whereas I had always thought it was more "inclusive" than that.

It does, actually, if you consider that "Attachment Parenting" is known as a philosophy coined by Dr. Sears in the past few decades. Now, there are various definitions of AP, some being that it has just been the same since the dawn of time, that it is natural parenting, and some consider it Dr. Sear's philosophy.

Whatever your definition is, I urge you to consider Dr. Sears Sleep Book. He has a wonderful chapter on co-sleeping and how one safely and securely transitions a toddler into their own room from a bedsharing situation (it is detailed with pictures but in a nutshell, it's a toddler bed in your own room, then you down on the floor mattress with toddler in their bed in your room, then toddler bed in their room with parent on floor mattress in their room, then toddler by themselves. 

Perhaps this situation will work for you, it is a slower process but not too slow, I'm sure it will work for you by the time #2 arrives.

I'm sorry, I haven't read the whole thread, but I think even Attachment Parenting has varied definitions - if you resent it, then change it. Resenting a situation promotes detachment just as much.


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## williamsmommy

I can't bear Supernanny :nope: so sad. It's always the nannies who don't have their own children that do these shows, which says it all for me.


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## Dragonfly

Her show is for entertainment only. And the children have to suffer for it.


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