# Anyone Anti-vaxxers?



## Jadie

I'm doing my research into child vaccinations as I've heard a couple of stories quickly about why mums are choosing not to vax or to use homeopathic alternatives. Can anyone help with any good articles/ websites/ books or even tell me personally why you will/ will not be vaccinating :) thanks guys :thumbup:


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## Bean66

Stalking. 

I'm still on the fence. I've been recommended the Truth About Vaccines and the Dr Sears book.


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## qpaulina42

_I should clarify that I am posting my opinion here because you asked and am just telling you what I think and not trying to sway or judge others. There, I think that should put me in the clear, don't you think?_

After doing much research I've decided to vaccinate. I feel that the risk of side effects from vaccines is lower than the risk of complications of the illness against which we immunize (there are a few exceptions here but my kiddo tolerates vaccines well I've found so I see no reason to limit the number of vaccines as long as they are decently spread out) as well as the difficulty of some of these illnesses. 

I know people are concerned about additives in vaccines, these do not bother me much as there has been plenty of good research on the additives and the doses in the vaccines are very low. I am much more concerned about he cumulative effect of all the chemicals that she will come in contact with over the years growing up in the States. 

The pathogens in the vaccines are either dead or attenuated (weakened) and if my kid were to have a hard time fighting a dead virus, imagine how much worse it would be for her to catch the real thing. 

Some argue that getting a natural immunity by getting the illness is more permanent than some of the fleeting or incomplete immunity from vaccines - here again I feel that it is better to have a chance at not catching a bug or having a less sever illness than not protecting at all. 

Another argument is that these illnesses are pretty rare now anyway and there isn't as much chance of catching them, but this is only true because so many have been vaccinated (I do not buy into the whole hypothesis that these diseases were on their way out anyway, I call scientific BS on that). And how can I be a responsible member of this society, how can I rely on others to vaccinate their kids to lower chances of my kid getting it if I do not do my part? Sure if there is some reason to expect a bad response to vaccine (family history, other health issues, previous bad reaction to vaccines) it is perfectly reasonable to chose not to vaccinate further in the hopes that herd immunity will protect them but again you have to consider how poorly your kid is then likely to respond to the actual illness. 

Finally, it was just a lot of reading that convinced me. sciencebasedmedicine.org has a fair number of articles on the subject but it's written by doctors and they can get pretty rude sometimes. evolutionaryparenting.com, while somewhat anti vaccine also has some good explanation of why some things are just hype. Really in the end it comes down to the quality of research and some common sense. A vaccine is a small injection, with a dead virus and a few things to irritate the body into having a response. My kids will come into contact with far worse things than that throughout their childhood.

note: as an example, here is the sciencebasedmedicine.org's response to the Dr. Sears book: https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/index.php/cashing-in-on-fear-the-danger-of-dr-sears/#more-512


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## Bean66

Thanks for the post qpaulina. Did you delay vaccinations at all or go with the schedule?

Sorry to hijack trend.


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## qpaulina42

We did delay a tiny bit, for instance we did not do the hepB at birth but at 2 months. I think everything was just 2 months off for us. I feel like there are a lot of things happening to a baby when they first come out, it's a new environment, new things to adjust to, I did not feel there was any need to add to that the possible confusion of vaccine side effects. But we also are very low risk for hepB so I wasn't in any rush to get it done.


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## CMarie

Non-vaxxing mama here! :thumbup: DH and I chose to not vaccinate LO for a number of reasons.

1) The ingredients. Formaldehyde, aluminum, thimerosal, human diploid cells from aborted fetal tissue, chicken embryo cells and fluid, monkey kidney cells, sheep red blood cells, gelatin, calf serum. The list goes on. From all the research I've done and the questions I've asked, there has never been a safety test done on majority of those ingredients to prove that they are safe in humans at all let alone in babies. Also, I realize this is not scientific evidence only an opinion, but I strongly feel like those things do not belong in our body. Blood cells and fluid from other animals and people are NOT meant to be injected into our blood stream!

2) Some of these ingredients are not expelled from the body easily. Heavy metals such as aluminum and thimerosal are known for not passing through the body and instead accumulate in organs (brains, liver, etc). What are the long-term implications of this? Also, there is a lot of debate still on thimerosal being in vaccines. The Institute of Medicine released a slideshow that discusses ethylmercury (thimerosal) being a neurotoxin and that it should be considered equally as potent as methylmercury in terms of being a developmental neurotoxin because there are simply not enough studies to prove it is safe. Here is the link to the slideshow if you wish to see it: https://www.iom.edu/~/media/Files/Activity%20Files/PublicHealth/ImmunizationSafety/Lucier.pdf

3) Many of these vaccines contain either soy, egg, or milk protein ingredients which are common allergens. How do you know what babies will react to what since they are not tested to allergies prior to being vaccinated? I know to some that may not seem like a good enough reason to skip vaccines, but for those of us with kids with severe allergies (my son has a severe milk protein allergy), it is something to consider. We have no idea of knowing how severe their reaction could be especially when that allergen is being injected directly into the blood stream.

4) Vaccine adverse reaction are MUCH more common than people thing. Seizures, high pitched screaming, no appetite, explosive diarrhea, "staring off into space"...those are ALL common reactions to vaccines and any vaccine adverse reaction should be reported. However, because these reactions are so common they are now considered "normal" and are rarely being reported. The current vaccine adverse reaction reporting system (VAERS) is used on a volunteer basis only. This means that anyone can file a reaction claim, but majority of parents don't know that what their baby/child is suffering from is an adverse reaction and doctors do not report these reactions majority of the time.

5) Package inserts. If there is anything you should read on these vaccines, it is those. It lists right in there the ingredients, side effects, etc. No vaccine (at least the ones from the inserts I've read) has EVER been tested for carcinogenic potential which means they have never been tested to show if they cause cancer. I know of one DTaP vaccine in particular that had SIDS listed as an adverse reaction as well. Here's a link to almost all vaccine package inserts: https://vactruth.com/vaccine-inserts/

6) I know this is something that I will get flamed for saying, but in most healthy people, majority of these diseases are not dangerous. The measles, mumps, chickenpox (especially in kids), whooping cough, and even polio can be treated and are not fatal. Approximately 95% of persons infected with polio will have no symptoms. About 4-8% of infected persons have minor symptoms, such as fever, fatigue, nausea, headache, flu-like symptoms, stiffness in the neck and back, and pain in the limbs, which often resolve completely. Fewer than 1% of polio cases result in permanent paralysis of the limbs (usually the legs). Of those paralyzed, 5-10% die when the paralysis strikes the respiratory muscles. This means that, at most, you have a 0.001% chance of dying from polio. Yes I realize that for some parents that still is enough of a reason to get their children vaccinated and that's completely fine, but for me, researching these diseases, knowing their symptoms and severity, and knowing how common they really are was key in my decision. The above information on Polio is from the CDC website here: https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd-vac/polio/in-short-both.htm

Here are some further links that I believe may be helpful :)

"Infant mortality rates regressed against number of vaccine doses routinely given: Is there a biochemical or synergistic toxicity?"
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3170075/pdf/10.1177_0960327111407644.pdf

Statistics and Data on claims filed for vaccine damage from the U.S. Department of Health: https://www.hrsa.gov/vaccinecompensation/statisticsreports.html#Claims

"Acute encephalopathy followed by permanent brain injury or death associated with further attenuated measles vaccines: a review of claims submitted to the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program."
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9481001

Immunization Safety Review: Vaccines and Autism (this one is quite lengthy, but very eye opening if you have the time to read it)
https://www.nap.edu/catalog.php?record_id=10997

Advisory Commission on Childhood Vaccines (ACCV): Session Notes (also very eye opening if you have the time to scroll through them! In many they discuss the Vaccine Compensation Court and how many trials there are, amount of money being awarded for what, etc)
https://www.hrsa.gov/vaccinecompensation/commissionchildvaccines.html

Interesting article on severe cases of pneumonia being caused by Prevnar (pneumonia vaccine)
https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/increase-in-severe-pneumonia-in-children-may-be-caused-by-vaccine-808633.html

"Vaccines: The Risks, The Benefits, The Choices" Video on Vaccines by Dr. Sherri Tenpenny (in parts)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OORHqEedtUY

"Vaccine Nation" Full Length Documentary
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8nrdybZZzA

As for what we do to help with LO's immune system, I strongly believe the best way to help prevent and fight disease is by proper nutrition and hygiene. Breastfeeding is hugely important in boosting immune systems at that age and the longer you do it, the better. A mostly organic, whole foods diet will do wonders for your body and you can supplement if needed. I take a Vitamin D and Magnesium supplement myself of a fairly high dosage that gets passed along to my LO. Vitamin D is great for boosting your immune system!

Sorry for the long post :haha: Hopefully some of the information will help in your decision. Best of luck with whatever you decide!


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## qpaulina42

I'll definitely second reading product inserts. It will give a you a lot of information including a pretty thorough breakdown of the chances of each side effect, which is pretty good. I think the common side effects of fever, irritability, stomach upset or appetite loss aren't reported much because that's the sort of symptoms you would expect when an organism is fighting a pathogen (having an immune response to the vaccine). I just figure these symptoms are milder than the full blown illness would be. 

https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/additives.htm has a nice list of all ingredients in each vaccine, though sadly without the actual amount of each ingredient which would be far more helpful. For example, almost all vaccines have formaldehyde which is used to both kill off the virus and to keep contaminates from growing. Formaldehyde sure sounds scary but if you think about the fact that a single vaccine has anywhere from 7.5 to 100 micrograms of formaldehyde per dose and a single APPLE has 500 to 1500 micrograms of formaldehyde, not to mention all the formaldehyde we breathe in indoors, it's really just nothing. Our body makes that much formaldehyde naturally. 

Then aluminum, which is used to irritate the body into an immune response (since the viruses are weak or dead). Over 6 months of full schedule vaccination babies will get about 4 mg of aluminum, they will get 10 mg over the same time period from breast milk alone and 40mg if they drink formula (120mg if it's soy based). You might argue that ingesting and injecting would make a difference, but almost everything we ingest eventually makes it's way into our bloodstream. And babies tested shortly after vaccination do not show any signs of elevated aluminum. I guess my point overall is that the amount of these substances in vaccines is very small and most will leave the body soon after (though not the aluminum, I don't think) so unless like CMarie you have kids or family members with a history of allergies these additives would not concern me. (And they don't have thimerosol in childhood vaccines anymore, at least not in the US). 

I also agree with CMarie that the chances of serious long term effects (like paralysis or death from polio) or even the chances of catching some of these diseases is low or lower in the Western world than elsewhere, but I do think that's mostly do to the fact that most of us are vaccinated and vaccinating our kids. Before the polio vaccine was available, 13,000 to 20,000 to cases of paralytic polio were reported in the US, not sure what that would translate to with today's population and globe trotting. I think that goes back to my original point of being a responsible member of this society and contributing to herd immunity rather than counting on other people vaccinating their kids to protect our own. 

Obviously when I started vaccinating I would hold my breath and hope that my kiddo was not one of the few that will have a severe reaction. That risk is there and it's real. But on the other hand, knowing what I know about what's in vaccines and how they work, I feel that if my kid will have a severe reaction to the vaccine, we are pretty much looking at some pretty serious issues in other areas of her life and vaccines will be the least of my worries. 

nice read about formaldehyde:
https://www.harpocratesspeaks.com/2012/04/demystifying-vaccine-ingredients.html

ETA: just looked into it further, seems like Keith et al (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0264410X02001652 ) looked into aluminum exposure in infants from vaccines and things like formula and found that it's rapidly eliminated from the body within a few days after vaccination. Mind you, I'm always in favor of more and more studies. Our babies are too precious and as far as I'm concerned we can keep trying to make the vaccines safer still.


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## Bean66

Thanks for all the info both of you. 

Paulina - I've just been watching some of the videos's that CMarie posted. "Vaccines: The Risks, The Benefits, The Choices" Video on Vaccines by Dr. Sherri Tenpenny - video 8 and 9 I think cover Polio. It's an interesting watch, at least I found it interesting. I would be interested in your opinion. Not in a argumentative way. I really am on the fence. 

On the one hand I want to do what is best for my child but on the other what is best for the community as a whole.

I promise I am not trying to be argumentative.


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## qpaulina42

I'll try and watch it! I hope I don't seem to be argumentative either. Just sort of explaining my thought process on this one. It seems that often I come across a site or some research that points to the various dangers of vaccines and I freak out a bit thinking I made the wrong choices and then when I dig deeper I am (so far) always relieved to discover that their info is either out of date, inaccurate, misinterpreted or based on some shoddy research. Still, when it's our kids health and well being on the line I think it's fair to say we ALL just want the very best for them.


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## qpaulina42

I tried finding just the polio section but was so far unsuccessful. Looks like an interesting presentation, I'll try and watch it in full and get back to you!


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## Bean66

Thank you.

You're not coming across as argumentative. For me at least it's great to hear opinions from both sides of the fence. 

It's a good presentation so far I'm up to number 11.


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## Zondon

Hi there, 

I'm not anti-vaccination per se, though I'm not pro-vaccination in all cases either, but I'm kind of lost as to what to do with my little one. 

I have two serious autoimmune disorders myself and have had severe reactions, including but not limited to anaphylaxis, to vaccines in the past (from whooping cough to hep b). My daughter is 10 weeks old. She had an appointment for her first round of vaccinations two weeks ago (the DTap/Hib combo), but we skipped it as she'd just been diagnosed with a pretty serious cow's milk protein allergy and we were trying to get our bearings re that still. Her CMPA symptoms have improved with Neocate and the blood in her stools is gone, which is a relief. She does however still have days of insane irritability with inconsolable crying, swollen tummy, mucousy stools and red rashes on different areas of her body (arm, tummy, back) so the docs think she may have other allergies too.... 

Given all that and her family history I'm just not sure what to do. I certainly don't want her to get any of the vaccines that have been prepared in milk or egg components, but what about the others....! I've booked another appointment in two weeks, but I think I might just ask them to give her the meningitis shot and skip all the rest.... Has anyone selectively vaccinated? What do you think about the meningitis jab? 

Any feedback would be much appreciated! 

Zondon


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## summer rain

I would definitely advise avoiding pediacel (5 in 1) until your LO has outgrown the cows' milk intolerance. My middle two children were made extremely ill by this particular vaccine and it caused them digestive problems and growth problems starting from the day they had the first dose of the injection. I delayed it with my youngest until he was nearly two, just in case. There are some NHS produced fact sheets out there that say children with CMPI or allergy should avoid 'bovine serum albumin' like the plague and it is in the pediacel vaccine. Yet most HCPs are unaware of this fact xx


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## Bean66

Zondon - also I don't know which auto immune conditions you have but some thing there is a link between the increase incidence of auto immune diseases and vaccinations.


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## Zondon

Summer rain thanks for the reply and the info! I am deeply concerned about the pediacel or DTap. I read this: 

https://www.siaip.it/upload/Anaphylaxis to DTaP in CMA.pdf 

and it scared the bejeesus out of me re the DTap, though the current whooping cough outbreak in the UK scares the bejeesus out of me too....! That one she's definitely not having until we figure out when/if she will outgrow the CMPA though yes...! I'm sorry to hear two of your children were made ill by this vaccine... It is sad and shocking that doctors don't have adequate information re the risks of some of the things they so freely prescribe.... I asked the doctor about the DTap and my LO and the only thing she said was "well... egg might be an issue but lots of kids have it and are ok so you should get it done". Bovine serum albumin never even came up.... Did your children have the meningitis vaccine ok, if you don't mind my asking? 

Bean66 thank you for your reply. I know some autoimmune disorders have been linked to vaccines, which is one of the reasons I mentioned my health issues. I started having health problems related to autoimmunity after the first (and only) hep b shot I got, to which I had an anaphylactic reaction. I'm in no way saying the vaccine caused my issues, but I do believe it triggered them. Of course the argument is that since I was predisposed to AI issues, they could have been triggered by a bad infection or pregnancy etc too, which may be the case. It's just very very grey territory isn't it...!? 

Zondon


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## Bean66

Very grey!!

Re:whooping cough. High dose vitamin C therapy has been shown to be very effective treatment. Fingers crossed you'd never have need but it's good to know that there is a very safe treatment out there.

https://www.vaccinationcouncil.org/...Edition.-Suzanne-Humphries-MD-_-Internati.pdf


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## summer rain

Zondon said:


> Summer rain thanks for the reply and the info! I am deeply concerned about the pediacel or DTap. I read this:
> 
> https://www.siaip.it/upload/Anaphylaxis to DTaP in CMA.pdf
> 
> and it scared the bejeesus out of me re the DTap, though the current whooping cough outbreak in the UK scares the bejeesus out of me too....! That one she's definitely not having until we figure out when/if she will outgrow the CMPA though yes...! I'm sorry to hear two of your children were made ill by this vaccine... It is sad and shocking that doctors don't have adequate information re the risks of some of the things they so freely prescribe.... I asked the doctor about the DTap and my LO and the only thing she said was "well... egg might be an issue but lots of kids have it and are ok so you should get it done". Bovine serum albumin never even came up.... Did your children have the meningitis vaccine ok, if you don't mind my asking?
> 
> Bean66 thank you for your reply. I know some autoimmune disorders have been linked to vaccines, which is one of the reasons I mentioned my health issues. I started having health problems related to autoimmunity after the first (and only) hep b shot I got, to which I had an anaphylactic reaction. I'm in no way saying the vaccine caused my issues, but I do believe it triggered them. Of course the argument is that since I was predisposed to AI issues, they could have been triggered by a bad infection or pregnancy etc too, which may be the case. It's just very very grey territory isn't it...!?
> 
> Zondon

I'm not sure if the meningitis vax was ok for them because my two middle boys had it at the same time as the pediacel. With my youngest I delayed it until the same time as his other vaccines and the leg where he had the meningitis jab swelled up quite badly though he was otherwise fine. Even the very pro-vax nurse at my GP surgery agrees fully with delaying in our case and said any reaction he had now like swelling of the leg probably would have been much worse when younger. My eldest had the older vaccines as he was born in 2004, dtaP and one of the meningitis ones (the others were not out yet) and live oral polio, he was completely fine. I have read that some of the reasons why the dtaP was withdrawn on the NHS are no longer applicable for example there are mercury free versions available now whereas then there wasn't. There is also a seperate inactive virus polio injection which was around at that time but was only given to developing countries, now this is no longer the case. 

Both the mercury free dtaP and seperate polio are available privately in the UK but they cost a fortune and aren't licensed to be used by the NHS under any circumstances. I personally believe that some kind of deal was made with the makers of pediacel even though its a riskier vaccine, the fact that the whooping cough vaccine they are now giving to pregnant women is the adult version of pediacel made by the same drugs company only confirms this. Xx


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## Jadie

Thanks ladies, that's definitely given me something to think about.

I kinda feel bombarded with both sides of the argument so much that I can't decide what to believe! 

Right now the question in my head is "why would the government allow vaccines that could be harming our children"


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## aliss

Jadie said:


> Thanks ladies, that's definitely given me something to think about.
> 
> I kinda feel bombarded with both sides of the argument so much that I can't decide what to believe!
> 
> Right now the question in my head is "why would the government allow vaccines that could be harming our children"

Well for starters, I'm very *pro* vax but I'd say I'm also very pro-choice.

The government sanctioning certain things is never a good indicator. Things are coming out about dyes, previous medications given that are recalled, etc. Good luck :)


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## qpaulina42

Zondon, I think you need to talk to someone more informative before giving your kiddo any vaccinations. Your family history and your LOs existing allergies are already indicators that you need to be extra cautious with things. I don't know how it works in the UK but here I would find some specialist like an allergist to talk things over with. You really need to get maximum info on this before proceeding. It may all turn out fine but it's best to know ahead of time what the risks are.


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## veganmama

Jadie said:


> Thanks ladies, that's definitely given me something to think about.
> 
> I kinda feel bombarded with both sides of the argument so much that I can't decide what to believe!
> 
> Right now the question in my head is *"why would the government allow vaccines that could be harming our children"*

oh hunny, the government doesnt care about you or your childs health. they only care about money

vaccines are a multi million dollar industry, they arent going lose all that money for your benefit no way jose

it's like saying, why is the government still allowing junk food to be sold when it's KNOWN to be bad for your health etc. like mcdonalds, pepsi, trans fat, msg's, high fructose corn syrup


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## Zondon

Bean66: I had no idea re the vitamin c therapy and whooping cough! Interesting link! Thanks! :) 

Summer rain: Aha! That's interesting re the meningitis vaccine... To be honest meningitis scares me quite a bit, so that one is one I'd like the little one to have though obviously not if having it is dangerous for her.... That's a tricky one.... 

I had the separate polio vaccine you mention as a child, 20-something years ago, you mean the oral one no? The drops? I'm not sure about side-effects, but I was completely unaware it was still given! Now the mercury free dtap I've never heard about!! Very very interesting! Do you know its name at all? That might be an avenue worth pursuing if and when the little one outgrows the allergy.... Yes the vaccine given to pregnant women re whooping cough... I didn't have that much to my obstetrician's annoyance. But seriously I'd reacted so badly to the childhood version of the dtap originally that my pediatrician at the time refused to give me a booster, so I wasn't going to get a booster when another human being and a baby at that could have been at risk from my reacting badly to it... I did ask for titers instead and was told I was protected which was good to know... 

Jadie hi: I think so much of this issue is deeply personal and has to do with your genetics, family history, risk factors, infection risks etc etc. As for the government ehm, governments don't really have the best track record for protecting anyone, especially when one is trying to come between them and lots and lots of money.... I hope you can get as much information as you can on this so you can make an informed decision you feel comfortable with for your family! That's certainly what I'm trying to do...! :) 

QPaulina42: Yes. I think I need to talk to a specialist too. Unfortunately an pediatric allergist would not be easy to get access to in the UK. My immunologist might know a bit more about this though, thanks for bringing up the specialist issue! I will be sure to ask him and maybe look into pediatric allergists one could see privately if need be! :) 

Zondon


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## bubbles123

veganmama said:


> Jadie said:
> 
> 
> Thanks ladies, that's definitely given me something to think about.
> 
> I kinda feel bombarded with both sides of the argument so much that I can't decide what to believe!
> 
> Right now the question in my head is *"why would the government allow vaccines that could be harming our children"*
> 
> oh hunny, the government doesnt care about you or your childs health. they only care about money
> 
> vaccines are a multi million dollar industry, they arent going lose all that money for your benefit no way jose
> 
> it's like saying, why is the government still allowing junk food to be sold when it's KNOWN to be bad for your health etc. like mcdonalds, pepsi, trans fat, msg's, high fructose corn syrupClick to expand...

I think it's more like the government is out for the greater good if that makes sense. They care about the health of the population as a whole, it's not that they don't care about the individual it's just that vaccines are a positive for the vast majority of people and those that may have issues are such a small minority they get forgotten about. In the UK certainly the NHS spends as little as possible. Maybe I'm wrong but if it were cheaper to leave everyone unvaccinated I think the NHS wouldn't vaccination. They must believe vaccination saves them money in the long term as presumably treating complications from vaccine preventable diseases is more expensive than buying vaccines.


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## Bean66

bubbles123 said:


> veganmama said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jadie said:
> 
> 
> Thanks ladies, that's definitely given me something to think about.
> 
> I kinda feel bombarded with both sides of the argument so much that I can't decide what to believe!
> 
> Right now the question in my head is *"why would the government allow vaccines that could be harming our children"*
> 
> oh hunny, the government doesnt care about you or your childs health. they only care about money
> 
> vaccines are a multi million dollar industry, they arent going lose all that money for your benefit no way jose
> 
> it's like saying, why is the government still allowing junk food to be sold when it's KNOWN to be bad for your health etc. like mcdonalds, pepsi, trans fat, msg's, high fructose corn syrupClick to expand...
> 
> I think it's more like the government is out for the greater good if that makes sense. They care about the health of the population as a whole, it's not that they don't care about the individual it's just that vaccines are a positive for the vast majority of people and those that may have issues are such a small minority they get forgotten about. In the UK certainly the NHS spends as little as possible. Maybe I'm wrong but if it were cheaper to leave everyone unvaccinated I think the NHS wouldn't vaccination. They must believe vaccination saves them money in the long term as presumably treating complications from vaccine preventable diseases is more expensive than buying vaccines.Click to expand...


I agree with you in part. I think it us more to do with greater good.

But re:money. There is no doubt in my mind that money is involved. There will be a financial incentive somewhere. For example the GP practices get paid for each individual vaccination they administer. Not just for the cost of the vaccine but also as a financial incentive. 

There pharmaceutical companies are scarily powerful too.

There is also a video in the ones Cmarie posted about smallpox. It's quite scary and eye opening.


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## bubbles123

Bean66 said:


> bubbles123 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> veganmama said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jadie said:
> 
> 
> Thanks ladies, that's definitely given me something to think about.
> 
> I kinda feel bombarded with both sides of the argument so much that I can't decide what to believe!
> 
> Right now the question in my head is *"why would the government allow vaccines that could be harming our children"*
> 
> oh hunny, the government doesnt care about you or your childs health. they only care about money
> 
> vaccines are a multi million dollar industry, they arent going lose all that money for your benefit no way jose
> 
> it's like saying, why is the government still allowing junk food to be sold when it's KNOWN to be bad for your health etc. like mcdonalds, pepsi, trans fat, msg's, high fructose corn syrupClick to expand...
> 
> I think it's more like the government is out for the greater good if that makes sense. They care about the health of the population as a whole, it's not that they don't care about the individual it's just that vaccines are a positive for the vast majority of people and those that may have issues are such a small minority they get forgotten about. In the UK certainly the NHS spends as little as possible. Maybe I'm wrong but if it were cheaper to leave everyone unvaccinated I think the NHS wouldn't vaccination. They must believe vaccination saves them money in the long term as presumably treating complications from vaccine preventable diseases is more expensive than buying vaccines.Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I agree with you in part. I think it us more to do with greater good.
> 
> But re:money. There is no doubt in my mind that money is involved. There will be a financial incentive somewhere. For example the GP practices get paid for each individual vaccination they administer. Not just for the cost of the vaccine but also as a financial incentive.
> 
> There pharmaceutical companies are scarily powerful too.
> 
> There is also a video in the ones Cmarie posted about smallpox. It's quite scary and eye opening.Click to expand...

I agree money will always play a part. Whether they are charging for vaccines or charging for the treatment of various diseases they awill always be charging for something. In theory GP's are paid to administer vaccines to allow them to chase up those who aren't up to date with vaccines so they don't leave it if someone doesn't turn up and thus it increases heard immunity. All part of the greater good. 

I do understand why people are wary of motivations though. I suppose I always like to give people thr benefit of the doubt.


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## beckysprayer

Subscribing because I am still on the fence with vaccines. Both vaccinating and not vaccinating have horrible potential side effects and choosing to me is like choosing between a gun and rattlesnake - neither is good. :nope: 

Any other recommendations for books or videos are greatly recommended!


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## kosh

stalking
on the fence too :nope:


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## Jadie

I'm glad to know I'm not the only one struggling to make a decision! Yay I'm not crazy!


----------



## summer rain

Zondon said:


> Bean66: I had no idea re the vitamin c therapy and whooping cough! Interesting link! Thanks! :)
> 
> Summer rain: Aha! That's interesting re the meningitis vaccine... To be honest meningitis scares me quite a bit, so that one is one I'd like the little one to have though obviously not if having it is dangerous for her.... That's a tricky one....
> 
> I had the separate polio vaccine you mention as a child, 20-something years ago, you mean the oral one no? The drops? I'm not sure about side-effects, but I was completely unaware it was still given! Now the mercury free dtap I've never heard about!! Very very interesting! Do you know its name at all? That might be an avenue worth pursuing if and when the little one outgrows the allergy.... Yes the vaccine given to pregnant women re whooping cough... I didn't have that much to my obstetrician's annoyance. But seriously I'd reacted so badly to the childhood version of the dtap originally that my pediatrician at the time refused to give me a booster, so I wasn't going to get a booster when another human being and a baby at that could have been at risk from my reacting badly to it... I did ask for titers instead and was told I was protected which was good to know...
> 
> Jadie hi: I think so much of this issue is deeply personal and has to do with your genetics, family history, risk factors, infection risks etc etc. As for the government ehm, governments don't really have the best track record for protecting anyone, especially when one is trying to come between them and lots and lots of money.... I hope you can get as much information as you can on this so you can make an informed decision you feel comfortable with for your family! That's certainly what I'm trying to do...! :)
> 
> QPaulina42: Yes. I think I need to talk to a specialist too. Unfortunately an pediatric allergist would not be easy to get access to in the UK. My immunologist might know a bit more about this though, thanks for bringing up the specialist issue! I will be sure to ask him and maybe look into pediatric allergists one could see privately if need be! :)
> 
> Zondon

The live oral polio was withdrawn in 2004 when my eldest was born and after he had the doses, before that it was the norm. There is a 'dead' single polio injection which I thought was new but apparently its not just in the past it was prioritised for use in developing countries (although some developing countries still have the live oral polio), but it is available privately in the UK and the government could make it part of the national vaccination programme if they so wished. The thimerosal free dtap is just called dtap on the vaccine sites I have seen but it states this particular version is free of that ingredient. I'm sure the clinics in question have the actual brand name of it. It was a couple of years ago when I looked into it but I would presume it is still available as some US states ban this ingredient from any vaccines used in their state so they must have the thimerosal free version. I have looked into it again and it seems at present none of the well-known London vaccine clinics are offering it but some clinics up north are for example this one in Leicestershire which offers Infanrix (a version of dtap without thimerosal).

https://www.privategp.com/services/immunisations-and-injections/immunisations-children/

This one based in Manchester and surrounding areas state all their vaccines are mercury free versions again they have the dtap. 

https://www.familyhealthcare.org.uk/index.shtml

This one says you need to ask for ingredients over phone/via email but they are based in central London.

https://www.babyjabs.co.uk/vaccines/vaccine_prices.html

xx


----------



## Bean66

I love how none judgemental this trend is.


----------



## Mummy1995

My LO is 5months and I still haven't decided.. she's had one vaccination at 8w but I've not been able to decide wht to do :/


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## Jadie

I hope I'm able to come to a decision by the time bub is here :) anyone wanna share their take on the vit k shot at birth?


----------



## Zondon

My daughter had it, but I was on blood thinners during pregnancy and she was a forceps delivery so there was never much question there. Had the blood thinners and forceps not been there it might have been a slightly different story.... 

Zondon


----------



## Jadie

Thanks zondon :)


----------



## Bean66

My lo had it but I wish she hadn't. My plan was to only have it if there was any trauma vontouse/forceps etc.


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## Jadie

Why do you wish she hadn't had it?


----------



## Bean66

Only in that I don't feel it was needed. Giving her unnecessary toxins/chemicals at only an hour old.


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## Jadie

Is it proven that there's also toxins/chemicals in that one too? I just read better health channel singing its praises as it prevents haemorrhaging disease of some kind. Hmmm decisions. Think that website was a very convincing scare tactic!


----------



## heyluu

I'm a non vaxer....but don't know anything about vit k and I'm due in October. I'm stalking for more information on that.


----------



## kosh

where I gave birth they don't give the vit K shot but the oral one (1ml per day over several weeks), maybe you could find out how it is done in your area?


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## Mummy1995

I agreed to vitamin K. There is an oral option if you'd rather that (in the UK anyway)


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## Jadie

Thanks ladies shall definitely be asking mw at next visit xxx


----------



## summer rain

Mine had the vitamin K injection and I will most likely be choosing it for my youngest. When I had my second eldest I spoke to the midwife about it and this was in my parents' area, they were otherwise very anti-vax and any type of intervention at birth but the midwife shared her info with me and said that she had looked into it and felt there was no harm to the injection and that the one study that found an increased risk of childhood leukeamia (sp?) involved children who had been given many many times the dose that is used today and subsequent studies showed no link. When I looked into it myself, this was correct. I think this NCT article is quite balanced

https://www.nct.org.uk/parenting/vitamin-k

There are also some BF advocates who feel that the oral vitamin K may possibly interfere with the virgin gut, whereas the injection goes straight into their bloodstream and bypasses the gut xx


----------



## Feronia

I don't vax and I also declined the vitamin K injection and the oral vitamin K as well. I would have, however, done the oral vitamin K if DD had a traumatic delivery and had any sign of bleeding, but she didn't. Instead, I took vitamin K supplements myself for about 2 months (and ate lots of kale) and transmitted it to DD through breastmilk. My midwife was completely fine with that decision, and plenty of people choose to do it that way.


----------



## NaturalMomma

We are non vaxxers, not anti vaxxers :)

We decided not to vaccinate after ds1 had reactions to every vaccine up to 18 months when we stopped. Reactions were fevers, rashes, getting sick, and eventually seizures. Ever since stopping (6 years now) he has been super healthy.

We never vaccinated ds2 or dd and have very healthy children. 

We have researched the history of vaccination, the diseases, etc and the chances of my kids getting one of them is slim and even if they do get one of them they aren't dangerous for the majority of the population (except for in the early weeks/months of life, but again, the chances of getting one is slim already).


----------



## motherearth23

heyluu said:


> I'm a non vaxer....but don't know anything about vit k and I'm due in October. I'm stalking for more information on that.

I'm due in July and I've decided to not get the vitamin K shot for my baby. My reasoning came from reading an article on how VitK interferes with the stem cells baby gets from his/her cord blood in the hours following birth. The article was a very interesting read: https://www.beyondconformity.org.nz/_blog/Hilary's_Desk/post/Breastmilk_stem_cells/

The research is very new, but the logic makes sense to me. 

As far as all the other vaccines go... I will not be having them for my child. I know everyone is different as far as immune systems go... but there is a huge difference between me and my partner as to how often we got sick as children and how often we get sick now. I had all of my vaccines on schedule, he had none until he had to get the "required" ones at 18 in order to attend college.
He rarely got sick, and I got sick often. Nowadays, I tend to get the flu and other seasonal illnesses easily. He doesn't get them even if I do and I sneeze all over the place. He is a lot hardier than I am, and I feel like his gut health is better too. If I get sick from food poisoning, he almost never gets it even from eating the same things. 

And I also believe vaccines are just not healthy, and cause a lot of issues that have been seen in the past few generations of children (increased allergies, ADHD, autism). But that part is purely my own opinion. My philosophy is to let humans be human, and part of that is building up immunities by getting illnesses naturally. We also have good medical care in the 21st century, so most/all illnesses can be treated or prevented by a healthy lifestyle.


----------



## heyluu

What about that stuff they put in babies eyes after birth? I think I remember something being put on my LO's eyes but don't remember what. I thought that was the vit k.


----------



## motherearth23

heyluu said:


> What about that stuff they put in babies eyes after birth? I think I remember something being put on my LO's eyes but don't remember what. I thought that was the vit k.

 Erythromycin drops/ointment is used to prevent eye infections that would be caused from bacteria from a sexually transmitted infection entering the eye from the mother's vagina. It was once a routine newborn practice, but is much less popular nowadays. Most doctors and midwives have pregnant mothers tested for the infections that cause eye infections in newborns, gonorrhea and chlamydia specifically. If you weren't tested for these, you can always ask to have an std panel done to confirm you are infection free for your medical record. Some hospitals make you sign a waiver form if you do not have drops/ointment done. 

The risks of not having it done include a chance of your newborn getting conjunctivitis or another eye infection if bacteria is introduced. Decades ago, these infections would often cause blindness because they went untreated and undiagnosed. With today's medical care, a mother would bring her baby to a doctor immediately when the obvious symptoms arrise and the baby would be treated long before infection causes blindness. 

It is a preventative procedure for sure, and consider unnecessary by some. But some mothers chose to have it done just so they don't have to worry about it if it were to occur. A lot of people and some studies show that it does cause blurred vision in the infant, which may interfere with maternal bonding and ability to breastfeed. But for the most part, things go well. 

I won't be having it done though.

Also, here is a link describing the most common newborn procedures that you should be aware of. In some American hospitals, most of these are done unless the mother requests them not to be done beforehand. 
https://modernalternativepregnancy....d-consent-in-newborn-procedures/#.UWM6SaslH6m

Also, since this thread is about immune system health (vaccinations), I figured I would post this other link about the benefits of leaving vernix on a newborn until it is absorbed into the skin or until you go home. 

https://raisingnaturalkids.com/2012/04/13/wait-dont-wash-that-newborn/


----------



## Zondon

:shock:


----------



## Jadie

Motherearth, thanks. For those links. I'll definitely be withholding baby's first bath!


----------



## Sunshinebubs

I chose not to vaccinate my daughter and won't be vaxxing this little bundle either. The vit K shot is also one they won't be getting unless baby has an extremely traumatic birth and shows any of the signs of needing it. I too will start taking vit k supplements shortly and eating foods that contain it in order to pass it through my milk. 

Thanks for that link on the vernix. I did know about this but you just reminded me to write it in my birth plan and remind my husband! ;)

Oh I should add that I did the homeopathic alternative to the vaccine schedule through our qualified homeopath. We use homeopathy A LOT in our house so it made sense to me to do it.


----------



## CupcakeBaby

Vernix link is very interesting, thanks.

My midwife said the current recommendation is no bath for 6 weeks (top and tail them of course though)

DH had very bad excema for a long time, so he's keen to stick to the 6 weeks. I already have it written in my notes that I want skin to skin for a long time and for her not to be washed and weighed and dressed right away, so it's nice to have another benefit for my preference.


----------



## tinytabby

At my hospital a bath was mandatory and we weren't allowed to leave till LO had had one.


----------



## Jadie

tinytabby said:


> At my hospital a bath was mandatory and we weren't allowed to leave till LO had had one.

This surprised me! :( shame some hospitals aren't open minded.


----------



## motherearth23

Sunshinebubs said:


> Oh I should add that I did the homeopathic alternative to the vaccine schedule through our qualified homeopath. We use homeopathy A LOT in our house so it made sense to me to do it.

Can you explain more about this? :)


----------



## tinytabby

Jadie said:


> tinytabby said:
> 
> 
> At my hospital a bath was mandatory and we weren't allowed to leave till LO had had one.
> 
> This surprised me! :( shame some hospitals aren't open minded.Click to expand...

I was too tired and desperate to be discharged to argue with them.


----------



## Jadie

tinytabby said:


> Jadie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tinytabby said:
> 
> 
> At my hospital a bath was mandatory and we weren't allowed to leave till LO had had one.
> 
> This surprised me! :( shame some hospitals aren't open minded.Click to expand...
> 
> I was too tired and desperate to be discharged to argue with them.Click to expand...

I'm sorry this happened then :(


----------



## MOMRETTIRC

I haven't joined in many of these discussions on natural parenting yet, as I feel like I'm more middle of the road between natural and whatever the opposite of natural is (artificial??:haha:). But after reading through this whole thread, I just wanted to add one thought to ponder. Coming from a very science-based background, and from my own experience with vaccines, I am choosing to vax my little one, though I feel that it is a decision that anyone must make for their own children. One thing to think about though is this..

YOUR child may be very healthy. may have a great immune system, and be able to fight off pertussis or measles without a problem. But what about when they get to school, and there is a kiddo in the class with leukemia, or HIV? This child may not be able to be vaccinated, or vaccines may not be effective because they are immunocompromised. So when your child comes down with a cough, they may have exposed another child to pertussis, who lacks the ability to fight it off. Your child may be better in a few days, and the other child could die from it. We are counting on "herd immunity" to keep our children healthy, but when the "herd" stops being immune, who has to pay the price?

I'm definitely not trying to start any fights with this, but I just think it is something that often gets overlooked when trying to make the responsible decision for our children, and our communities. Just some food for thought.


----------



## heyluu

MOMRETTIRC said:


> I haven't joined in many of these discussions on natural parenting yet, as I feel like I'm more middle of the road between natural and whatever the opposite of natural is (artificial??:haha:). But after reading through this whole thread, I just wanted to add one thought to ponder. Coming from a very science-based background, and from my own experience with vaccines, I am choosing to vax my little one, though I feel that it is a decision that anyone must make for their own children. One thing to think about though is this..
> 
> YOUR child may be very healthy. may have a great immune system, and be able to fight off pertussis or measles without a problem. But what about when they get to school, and there is a kiddo in the class with leukemia, or HIV? This child may not be able to be vaccinated, or vaccines may not be effective because they are immunocompromised. So when your child comes down with a cough, they may have exposed another child to pertussis, who lacks the ability to fight it off. Your child may be better in a few days, and the other child could die from it. We are counting on "herd immunity" to keep our children healthy, but when the "herd" stops being immune, who has to pay the price?
> 
> I'm definitely not trying to start any fights with this, but I just think it is something that often gets overlooked when trying to make the responsible decision for our children, and our communities. Just some food for thought.

Not to be argumentative, but you first would have to have confidence that vaccines work. Here is a great read on herd immunity. Did you know the original study on herd immunity was based on natural immunity and not vaccines? 

https://www.vaccinationcouncil.org/...s-of-mass-vaccination-suzanne-humphries-md-3/

And one more

https://www.vaccineriskawareness.com/The-Herd-Immunity-Theory-Treating-Our-Children-Like-Cattle


----------



## Bean66

heyluu said:


> MOMRETTIRC said:
> 
> 
> I haven't joined in many of these discussions on natural parenting yet, as I feel like I'm more middle of the road between natural and whatever the opposite of natural is (artificial??:haha:). But after reading through this whole thread, I just wanted to add one thought to ponder. Coming from a very science-based background, and from my own experience with vaccines, I am choosing to vax my little one, though I feel that it is a decision that anyone must make for their own children. One thing to think about though is this..
> 
> YOUR child may be very healthy. may have a great immune system, and be able to fight off pertussis or measles without a problem. But what about when they get to school, and there is a kiddo in the class with leukemia, or HIV? This child may not be able to be vaccinated, or vaccines may not be effective because they are immunocompromised. So when your child comes down with a cough, they may have exposed another child to pertussis, who lacks the ability to fight it off. Your child may be better in a few days, and the other child could die from it. We are counting on "herd immunity" to keep our children healthy, but when the "herd" stops being immune, who has to pay the price?
> 
> I'm definitely not trying to start any fights with this, but I just think it is something that often gets overlooked when trying to make the responsible decision for our children, and our communities. Just some food for thought.
> 
> Not to be argumentative, but you first would have to have confidence that vaccines work. Here is a great read on herd immunity. Did you know the original study on herd immunity was based on natural immunity and not vaccines?
> 
> https://www.vaccinationcouncil.org/...s-of-mass-vaccination-suzanne-humphries-md-3/
> 
> And one more
> 
> https://www.vaccineriskawareness.com/The-Herd-Immunity-Theory-Treating-Our-Children-Like-CattleClick to expand...

Thanks for posting these. Very useful.


----------



## ticking.clock

Sooooooo glad I found this thread,

I'm not vaccinating my baby after my son suffered a bad reaction to his MMR, he now gets disability living allowance for the effects it had on him, and I'm fed up of being told I'm selfish or irresponsible.

All I want to do is protect my child, my son has a cows milk allergy and so does my baby so it seems I'm right to not vaccinate her x


----------



## heyluu

That's the thing that halted me in the beginning. I began to wonder if my baby would be one of the ones who had a reaction. How can we know how their fragile little body will respond to them? It scares the day lights out if me. I went with my gut feeling on it and boy did I catch hell. And I'm with you, so tired of being told I'm irresponsible! I love my baby so much, why would anyone say such an awful thing?


----------



## 080509

We are not getting our youngest's MMR, or our eldests MMR booster. I had the MMR a few months ago then one week later developed type 1 diabetes, that doesn't run in my family at all, yet its one of the side effects on the manufacturers leaflet/pdf. When my eldest had his MMR he stopped eating everything, wouldn't talk, he has only just gotten back to how he was pre MMR, he's now 2.5 and had the MMR at 14 months.

I've been offered the whooping cough vaccine in pregnancy but unsure whether to have it or not? Theres been outbreaks in our area of it? Its supposed to protect the baby until its old enough for the 8 weeks jabs, so undecided of that yet.

I had the flu jab last october and since then i've been ill, constant cough/cold/flu symptoms, they won't be getting another down me!


----------



## AimeeM

My DS2 has an IgA and IgG deficiency and also no immune response to the vaccines he has had so far (at 3 years). My mothers instinct told me to delay the MMR which we did while in the meantime we found out about his immune problems. I am glad we delayed the MMR as he would have been at risk of being quite ill from it while probably not responding to it and who knows what else.. We may give it him if his blood tests show a development in his immune system.
It is mainly the live vaccines I don't like. My DS1 had a very bad reaction to the live polio vaccine in 2003.
My DS3 had his initial vaccines delayed until 7 months, he is currently waiting for his 12 month shots at 15 months. He will be having them excluding the MMR until we find out his immune system status. I am concerned about the current measles outbreak and it puts us in a terrible position on what to do for the best.


----------



## ticking.clock

I have to say that my child catching measles doesn't worry me as my first has had it, and to be totally honest chickenpox made her more poorly than measles did!


----------



## heyluu

My hubby had the measles as a child and I had the chicken pox. We both are just fine. Being sick is never fun but its not the end of the world.


----------



## tinytabby

One in 5 children who contract measles suffer from complications.


----------



## heyluu

Those are good odds!


----------



## tinytabby

heyluu said:


> Those are good odds!

They're not!


----------



## heyluu

Only one out of five? It is in my opinion. I wonder why that one didn't fare so well? Missing information, just a stat. Again, that's my opinion.


----------



## tinytabby

You're entitled to your opinion. I strongly disagree with you. Measles can be extremely dangerous.

Here's the article the stat comes from.

https://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2013/apr/09/swansea-measles-epidemic-620-cases


----------



## tinytabby

Also, what does it matter why that one on 5 didn't fare so well? They just didn't. It's a tragedy when the illness is completely preventable.


----------



## heyluu

Yes, and so can the vaccines (be extremely dangerous). I'm not swayed by fear mongering. If anything it's just annoying as hell.


----------



## tinytabby

It's fearmongering that causes people not to vaccinate - largely unfounded.

It's not fearmongering to say that if your child gets measles there's a 20% chance that they will be very ill.

It's just true. Maybe yours will be ok, but maybe the kid they pass it onto wont be.

Sorry you find it annoying for people to say the facts to you. I'd be 'annoyed' if my baby, who's too young to be immunised, caught measles.


----------



## heyluu

tinytabby said:


> Also, what does it matter why that one on 5 didn't fare so well? They just didn't. It's a tragedy when the illness is completely preventable.

In order to have that opinion you have to first have confidence in the effectiveness of vaccines...which I don't. And you are right, it is a tragedy when illness harms any child. That includes vaccine induced illness. My personal opinion is that illnesses like the measles are treatable and I wouldn't risk taking a vaccine for something that can be treated naturally. 

Like you said, I'm entitled to my opinion. And, so are you.


----------



## heyluu

tinytabby said:


> It's fearmongering that causes people not to vaccinate - largely unfounded.
> 
> It's not fearmongering to say that if your child gets measles there's a 20% chance that they will be very ill.
> 
> It's just true. Maybe yours will be ok, but maybe the kid they pass it onto wont be.
> 
> Sorry you find it annoying for people to say the facts to you. I'd be 'annoyed' if my baby, who's too young to be immunised, caught measles.

Again, your opinion. And that's okay with me. You make the choices that are right for you.


----------



## ticking.clock

Did you know most cases of measles are passed on by immunised children?

So before the finger pointing starts people should really do their research


----------



## 080509

TBH i really wouldn't class the guardian newspaper as a reputable source of information.


----------



## tinytabby

I'm not arguing with you about this again.

What gives you the idea that I've not done my research? I've read widely, and the facts state that measles is a dangerous illness. 

For MOST children, vaccinations are safe. For A SMALL MINORITY they are dangerous.

I know that it's dangerous for your child. Therefore I respect your right not to vaccinate.

However I have no time for people who want to try and tell people that measles is no more dangerous than the vaccine. Or that the vaccine doesn't work. Because these things are just false. They're wrong. And it's dangerous to tell people these things because they might believe you.


----------



## heyluu

:roll:


----------



## tinytabby

080509 said:


> TBH i really wouldn't class the guardian newspaper as a reputable source of information.

What do you mean? The stats come from the government and medical journals. 

I'm not citing opinion here. The Guardian was the first paper that I came to that had these stats in but they're the same in all the papers.


----------



## tinytabby

heyluu said:


> :roll:

I'm sorry but that's just rude.


----------



## tinytabby

I'm leaving this thread now. This is just making me angry and there's no point in getting angry.


----------



## Bean66

What are the classing as complications. It states a few, of which vomiting is one. It basically tells you nothing. Could be that 19% are getting V&D the other 1% more serious complication.

I have seen stats they say there are side effects to the mmr in ~20% of patients. Again it tells you nothing without seeing what they are classing as side effects and the break down. 

Anyway, this has been a great non judgemental trend so far. It's be great if it could stay that way.


----------



## Feronia

Why is it okay for ticking.clock not to vaccinate her second child since her first had a reaction, but not okay for someone to choose not to vaccinate her first child? Is it really fair to say "wait to see if your first kid has a bad reaction, _then_ you can choose not to continue vaccinating?" I don't think so. People have the right to not vaccinate from the beginning without being judged so harshly.


----------



## Jadie

Anyway ladies, I agree Feronia and bean66 people should be able to chose! Interesting to know that measles is more likely to be passed on by those immunised as well. I've come to a decision about the vit k shot, I won't be having it if the birth is straightforward, and no trauma. I'll be loading myself up with vit k rich foods and pass on through bf.


----------



## heyluu

Feronia said:


> Why is it okay for ticking.clock not to vaccinate her second child since her first had a reaction, but not okay for someone to choose not to vaccinate her first child? Is it really fair to say "wait to see if your first kid has a bad reaction, _then_ you can choose not to continue vaccinating?" I don't think so. People have the right to not vaccinate from the beginning without being judged so harshly.

Apparently not :( been told I shouldn't be a part of society if I don't vaccinate over in 2nd Tri. That's pretty harsh and inappropriate. Honestly getting tired of the bullying.


----------



## ticking.clock

Can I point out it's my 3rd child who isn't being vaccinated

First was fine, fully vaccinated yet has had measles
Second fully vaccinated yet suffered serious effects (proven
Third I'm not vaccinating as I don't believe the risks outweigh the benefits


----------



## Bean66

heyluu said:


> Feronia said:
> 
> 
> Why is it okay for ticking.clock not to vaccinate her second child since her first had a reaction, but not okay for someone to choose not to vaccinate her first child? Is it really fair to say "wait to see if your first kid has a bad reaction, _then_ you can choose not to continue vaccinating?" I don't think so. People have the right to not vaccinate from the beginning without being judged so harshly.
> 
> Apparently not :( been told I shouldn't be a part of society if I don't vaccinate over in 2nd Tri. That's pretty harsh and inappropriate. Honestly getting tired of the bullying.Click to expand...

That's so sad. :hugs: 

That is bullying!


----------



## Jadie

Heyluu, I'm sorry that's happened to you :( hugs!


----------



## NaturalMomma

Haven't read all the replies. Vaccinating should always be a choice a parent gets to make. Most adults are not vaccinated since most do not keep up with their boosters. I believe I read that in America the actual vaccinated population is around 30% when you include unvaccinated adults in the equation. Unvaccinated kids don't walk around diseased, infact a vaccinated person has just as much of a chance to get the disease/illness as the unvaccinated person. Most unvaccinated kids and adults will not get the disease/illness. Getting a vaccine doesn't make you immune, which many people falsly think, but it doesn't. It just gives you less symptoms/makes it not as bad, which means people think they have a cold or a rash instead of pertussis or shingles and they continue to do their daily activities spreading it. It's generally the vaccinated who spread it to unvaccinated and to their fellow vaccinated community rather the unvaccinated spreading it to the vaccinated.


----------



## Feronia

ticking.clock said:


> Can I point out it's my 3rd child who isn't being vaccinated
> 
> First was fine, fully vaccinated yet has had measles
> Second fully vaccinated yet suffered serious effects (proven
> Third I'm not vaccinating as I don't believe the risks outweigh the benefits

Whups, my mistake! I'm sorry you've had to go through this. :(

And heeluu, that is totally inappropriate that people said those sort of things to you! :( I wish this choice wasn't ostracized so much. I have close family members who won't speak to me anymore because of it. I honestly wouldn't have even told them about not vaccinating if I knew it was such a controversial choice at the time.


----------



## motherearth23

NaturalMomma said:


> Haven't read all the replies. Vaccinating should always be a choice a parent gets to make. Most adults are not vaccinated since most do not keep up with their boosters. I believe I read that in America the actual vaccinated population is around 30% when you include unvaccinated adults in the equation. Unvaccinated kids don't walk around diseased, infact a vaccinated person has just as much of a chance to get the disease/illness as the unvaccinated person. Most unvaccinated kids and adults will not get the disease/illness. Getting a vaccine doesn't make you immune, which many people falsly think, but it doesn't. It just gives you less symptoms/makes it not as bad, which means people think they have a cold or a rash instead of pertussis or shingles and they continue to do their daily activities spreading it. It's generally the vaccinated who spread it to unvaccinated and to their fellow vaccinated community rather the unvaccinated spreading it to the vaccinated.

This was a really good explanation, it makes sense to me. It is precisely the reason I am especially against the chicken pox vaccine. I had chicken pox pretty severely as an 8 year old, and I stayed home for two weeks. Luckily nobody else in my class caught it from me because my mother recognized the signs so early. If I had been vaccinated, the symptoms would have been a lot milder and I probably would have spread it around school since the mild symptoms would be cold-like symptoms and a slight rash.


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## heyluu

Feronia said:


> ticking.clock said:
> 
> 
> Can I point out it's my 3rd child who isn't being vaccinated
> 
> First was fine, fully vaccinated yet has had measles
> Second fully vaccinated yet suffered serious effects (proven
> Third I'm not vaccinating as I don't believe the risks outweigh the benefits
> 
> Whups, my mistake! I'm sorry you've had to go through this. :(
> 
> And heeluu, that is totally inappropriate that people said those sort of things to you! :( I wish this choice wasn't ostracized so much. I have close family members who won't speak to me anymore because of it. I honestly wouldn't have even told them about not vaccinating if I knew it was such a controversial choice at the time.Click to expand...

I'm really fortunate in that respect, in that my immediate family is very natural and holistic in their approach to everyday life. So my mom and dad and my brother all support my decision. My husband is more than on my side. My MIL is kind of strange, she does things that make no sense to me and so I discount her opinion most of the time. Anyway, she is rarely rude because we let her know she's had her opportunity to parent a child now it's our turn :p it rarely gets even close to ugly tho because I think she respects us. 

Other than that, our closest friends are either on our side or are respectfully quiet. It's places like this (not natural parenting side) but pregnancy forums or other parenting discussion boards, even facebook threads where things get ugly. I never intend for things to get ugly at all because honestly I don't have a desire to take over decision making for another parent and i dont think they are bad parents for vaccinating. Who am i to judge? i vaccinated my first 4 before i had any clue about the dangers and risks associated with them. Unfortunately I've found that parents on the pro vax side tend to want to push the issue in a really nasty way. Not all mind you, but it's happened to me so much. And they argue it's because I benefit from their vaccination and they are at risk for my lack of. I highly disagree. But I don't feel the need to prove anything to them. :(


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## heyluu

With all that said...I love this forum because its so nice to have a good discussion with mommas who are mostly like minded. I just wish there was more traffic. I can get a bit chat happy at times!


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## Feronia

Come on up to BC -- I need some like minded friends! :D

Anyway, that's great that your family supports you. My DH's side doesn't know, but he has immediate family in the vaccine industry so we're trying not to even tell them, but surprisingly they haven't asked yet. My dad won't speak to me and occasionally sends me vaccine propaganda in the mail and that's all I hear from him. My mom hasn't spoken to me since DD was born, and us not vaccinating is a huge reason for it. Really, the only family I still have that will talk to me has no idea we don't vaccinate, and I hope to keep it that way since I regret telling my mom (who told everyone in my family for me). :nope::shrug:


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## heyluu

Oh goodness that's awful! :( I'm so sorry. To have my mom and dad against me for that long would be so difficult. I know it wouldn't change my mind, but it's very sad none the less. It's one thing to have the world against you but family too? Ugh :(


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## Jadie

Feronia said:


> Come on up to BC -- I need some like minded friends! :D
> 
> Anyway, that's great that your family supports you. My DH's side doesn't know, but he has immediate family in the vaccine industry so we're trying not to even tell them, but surprisingly they haven't asked yet. My dad won't speak to me and occasionally sends me vaccine propaganda in the mail and that's all I hear from him. My mom hasn't spoken to me since DD was born, and us not vaccinating is a huge reason for it. Really, the only family I still have that will talk to me has no idea we don't vaccinate, and I hope to keep it that way since I regret telling my mom (who told everyone in my family for me). :nope::shrug:

This might be a personal question, please let me know if I'm overstepping the mark... But can I ask why your parents have taken your decision to heart so badly?


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## Feronia

I'll PM you. :flower:

I'll say here that when she found out, she of course tried to talk us out of it, and I did my best to defend our decision respectfully (I have no intention of changing her mind of the matter). She took the defense as an attack, when really I just wanted our choice respected. She kept bringing it up while she was staying with us -- inserting passive aggressive comments here and there -- and finally I snapped and and told her to stop mentioning it since we weren't going to change our minds, and I told her that I didn't appreciate her telling my family members for me and turning them against me (I was 40 weeks pregnant and had been in pre-labour forever -- can't blame me too much for snapping! ) Other stuff happened when I was in labour that also influenced her to cut contact, but not vaccinating is a main issue. It's sad, and I wish they weren't missing out on DD growing up since she's their first and only grandchild, but they're choosing to withhold contact, not me. :(


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