# Delayed vaccination-Update-New doctor sounds promising



## Vrinda

As I wrote earlier about 

Hygiene-social and preventive dept want to make note of not vaccinated groups and I felt so bothered by it.

Update-They just asked about our vaccine decision and made us do some paper work related to it and then informed us our LO maybe not be admitted to some Kindergarten schools because of this.
I spoke with some other moms who are not vaccinating-It happened to them too.

Looks like they keep record of everything like this. ( even though we are delaying vaccination and opting out some, our doctor put us in same group as no vaccinating group)



I said I do not trust my doctor because of giving our information to 3rd party regarding vaccine decision.

We have decided to delay vaccination at least and we discussed this with our doctor ( have vaccinated some and choosing not to vaccinate some , delaying etc)

But she bullied us from the beginning- If you do not vaccinate then we will do this that etc...
Vaccination is a duty-mandatory one- even though the law clearly states otherwise.


Local law states the vaccination is not compulsory and parents have a choice.

Did anyone have any similar experience?

I am worried:growlmad: :nope:

EDIT- My OH has family history of allergies and such auto immune diseases, one of the reasons why we delay
The doctor is in touch with social and preventive department as well.

ONE MORE EDIT :

See they are trying to make laws strict here ( I spoke with a lawyer) and almost mandatory 
so the fear and threats to parents leave NO CHOICE almost for all. But those who research knows that law states its not mandatory. Doctors themselves are under pressure from other authorities.

I am now not really very angry on our doctor, I see its not really her fault. But I am still upset.
She could have chose not to make it difficult for us to decide.

*DOCTOR CHANGE :last month she-that doctor- wanted me to start weaning-inspite of LO doing well for her age etc...I want to breastfeed as long as possible, I do not want to hurry with solids-I explained to her and what she said?
She said, I should start solids because that will provide antigens ! ?
And that I should give also rice mix everyday after asking me if my LO is sleeping well in night I said yes, only 1-2 times wakes up then she said about rice, I think she was just trying to sell that nestle leaflet gave me to lure me into it?! ( Rice for what? milk got more nutritional value) 
Come one, my LO was only 4 months when she said this- I know some mothers BF exclusively for atleast 6 months etc... My goal is even more a if all goes well...I can introduce solids slowly when my baby can sit ...
All this reasons I wanted to change my doctor
*


NEW DOCTOR: who is recommended by our previous doctor, is one of the best here for consulting regarding alternative schedule, so we have hope now some well guided information regarding vaccine decision. We are now talking about alternatives - opting some out etc with her



I will keep updating.


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## Eve

We are delaying and selective vaxing and believe me, I get the speech all the time!


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## Vrinda

Eve, but did they report you to socials(edit- hygiene social and preventive department not the social services as someone misinterpets) office because of this? 
Our doctor sent our information to hygiene social and preventive department
She also lied to us, saying that vaccination is compulsary which I checked it is not,
then she said okay, its not compulsary but its a duty blah blah blah

We did tons of research and have decided to delay vaccination.
And they are giving us hard time.

I do not speak local language


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## Eve

No they didn't. I am not even sure what the Socials Office is...?


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## Vrinda

Well its a local hygiene office - preventive and social department office - where they keep record if something like this but I think its outrageous to do and we feel that doctor broke our trust. 

I think some countries are very open about vaccine decision.This one certainly is not. Even though the laws are pretty flexible to choose if you want to vaccinate or not. 

I am so angry at them for making it difficult for us. It seems that she is pushing us for vaccinating, even though we clearly stated we want to delay. I know some moms who never vaccinated ( we vaccined one) and they never got recorded by socials.So why us??
I am angry angry angry


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## Eve

I don't think it should be anyones business if you decide to delay or not vaccinate at all... I would be upset too...


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## Vrinda

Exactly, it shouldnt be anyone's business. I see you are from Canada. I think laws are pretty flex for vaccination there as well. 

Should I speak with a lawyer? I am not sure what to do. Because law clearly states that its NOT MANDATORY to VACCINATE. 

Why are they poking their nose?


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## LannieDuck

Whilst I can't answer to the social office question (I'm in the UK, and I don't think social workers here have anything to do with vaccination), I feel I should point out that vaccination is one aspect of childcare that does impact other people. Some people can't vaccinate their children because of allergies/illnesses etc, and have to rely on herd immunity to provide protection from vaccine-preventable diseases.

As such, your choices do become other people's business.


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## Ozzieshunni

What country are you in? Certain countries have different obligations when it comes to medical standards.

We will be delaying the MMR until 15 months, but Alex has had all his other vaccines on time. I believe it is irresponsible not to vaccinate unless your child has a known medical condition or has had a previous reaction to a vaccine.


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## Mooshie

LannieDuck said:


> Whilst I can't answer to the social office question (I'm in the UK, and I don't think social workers here have anything to do with vaccination), I feel I should point out that vaccination is one aspect of childcare that does impact other people. Some people can't vaccinate their children because of allergies/illnesses etc, and have to rely on herd immunity to provide protection from vaccine-preventable diseases.
> 
> As such, your choices do become other people's business.




Ozzieshunni said:


> What country are you in? Certain countries have different obligations when it comes to medical standards.
> 
> We will be delaying the MMR until 15 months, but Alex has had all his other vaccines on time. I believe it is irresponsible not to vaccinate unless your child has a known medical condition or has had a previous reaction to a vaccine.

Completely agree with the above. It is most definately other people's business if you decide not to vaccinate.


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## Vrinda

LannieDuck said:


> Whilst I can't answer to the social office question (I'm in the UK, and I don't think social workers here have anything to do with vaccination), I feel I should point out that vaccination is one aspect of childcare that does impact other people. Some people can't vaccinate their children because of allergies/illnesses etc, and have to rely on herd immunity to provide protection from vaccine-preventable diseases.
> 
> As such, your choices do become other people's business.

I am listening to you, this is what pro vacciners would say all the time but it seems to me, there is one flaw in this argument. I've read vaccines itself are causing lots of problems with natural immunity ( I am not going into detail - there are plenty of books on the subject )
Bless all the babies born with allergies or illness ( fyi,I read also that vaccinated kids are more allergic etc than non vaccinated ones stats )So seriously, I am thinking, why to put a totally healthy baby's immunity at risk by vaccinating on this reason alone? I mean, in order to protect(which I read it doesnt actually) lets say 1 percent of herd, why risk the health of remaining 99 percent?

And please if you( or anyone reading this) have better knowledge on the subject, more than welcome to shed some here.
I am continiously researching on this matter.
Trust me, its a hardest decision I've ever made in my life.

Since we are delaying the vaccines at the moment and do not want to give some vaccines which we think are not necessary as per the area we live.

Peace:flower:
( I am not going to argue about my choice-we are not against vaccination, it should be a choice since it has its own pros and cons-known )
EDIT- My OH has family history of allergies and such autu immune diseases, one of the reasons why we delay

ON A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT NOTE
I hate all the second hand smoke that is making us sick all the time we are out.
Why is THIS not everyone's business and why is there no complete BAN on smoking or selling cigerretttes etc ?


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## Eternal

Personally I see a huge difference between delaying vaccs and not giving them. So if your delying I cant see how anyone else is involved (depending on how long), not giving does become a public issue, the more children who are not vaccinated the greater the occurance and DEATHS from preventable diseases. I think that information needs to be recorded by law, so that public health authorities have the info to determine things like outbreaks etc, I understand its your choice and yoru child but as a nurse and an mother I vaccinate. I have seen the deverstation, death and love term disability diseases like measles can cause. People say, oh its just measles, its a normal childhood disease, and it is, but it does kill. 

Out of curiousity, do you all avoid menningitius vaccs as well?

(sorry if my spelling is wack, phone)


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## Maman

i was wondering what you are planning to delay?

even so social services have no right to be involved just over delay of vaccinations and they wouldnt hassle you JUST based on that, Theyre far too busy. Your doctor must have been concerned for another reason too.


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## Leopard

We are delaying/not vaccing as well and we are being borderline harassed by our health worker too.


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## roomaloo

Threaten them with legal action if they don't leave you alone if the law states it's not mandatory. They're trying to bully you into it, bet they have targets to hit like they do over here!


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## Eve

We decided to get the one for menengitis, as I know of a few children who have died because of it... chicken pox however? No... no need for it in my opinion and by injecting our children with all of these chemicals, I do wonder what we are really doing to their body and immune systems.


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## Ozzieshunni

I know that I'm doing it because some of these illnesses could negatively impact Alex's heart. I have to make a choice as to what's more important and I'll take that risk to see my son healthy and happy (which he thankfully is). 

If a child that is un vaccinated comes in contact with my son and he or she is carrying an illness that he hasn't been vaccinated for, who is negatively affected?


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## LannieDuck

Vrinda said:


> LannieDuck said:
> 
> 
> Whilst I can't answer to the social office question (I'm in the UK, and I don't think social workers here have anything to do with vaccination), I feel I should point out that vaccination is one aspect of childcare that does impact other people. Some people can't vaccinate their children because of allergies/illnesses etc, and have to rely on herd immunity to provide protection from vaccine-preventable diseases.
> 
> As such, your choices do become other people's business.
> 
> I am listening to you, this is what pro vacciners would say all the time but it seems to me, there is one flaw in this argument. I've read vaccines itself are causing lots of problems with natural immunity ( I am not going into detail - there are plenty of books on the subject )
> Bless all the babies born with allergies or illness ( fyi,I read also that vaccinated kids are more allergic etc than non vaccinated ones stats )So seriously, I am thinking, why to put a totally healthy baby's immunity at risk by vaccinating on this reason alone? I mean, in order to protect(which I read it doesnt actually) lets say 1 percent of herd, why risk the health of remaining 99 percent?
> 
> And please if you( or anyone reading this) have better knowledge on the subject, more than welcome to shed some here.
> I am continiously researching on this matter.
> Trust me, its a hardest decision I've ever made in my life.
> 
> Since we are delaying the vaccines at the moment and do not want to give some vaccines which we think are not necessary as per the area we live.
> 
> Peace:flower:
> ( I am not going to argue about my choice-we are not against vaccination, it should be a choice since it has its own pros and cons-known )
> 
> ON A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT NOTE
> I hate all the second hand smoke that is making us sick all the time we are out.
> Why is THIS not everyone's business and why is there no complete BAN on smoking or selling cigerretttes etc ?Click to expand...

I'm an epidemiologist. I work with data on infectious diseases. At a population level, it's all about risk: the risk that someone will die/suffer serious illness as a result of the disease vs the risk that someone will die/suffer serious illness as a result of the vaccine. The risks of the vaccine are *far* smaller. Ben Goldacre has written some very good explanations of this in his book 'Bad Science'.

I'm not sure what you mean about the problems with natural immunity. Most vaccines work by triggering the body's own normal immunity processes - many use killed or attenuated (weakened) viruses to do this. They have the same antigens on their surface as live viruses, but don't attack the body (or attack in a weakened form). So the body can learn how to defend itself without actually being in danger. 

Wrt the stats on allergies in vaccinated vs non-vaccinated children - do you know where they came from? I'd be interested in taking a look. I don't know of any association between allergies and vaccines. There has been an increase in allergies, and also an increase in rates of vaccination... but that doesn't mean that one has caused the other.

PS I agree about secondhand smoke :thumbup:


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## Ozzieshunni

Well said, Lannie :flower:


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## Leopard

Ozzieshunni said:


> I know that I'm doing it because some of these illnesses could negatively impact Alex's heart. I have to make a choice as to what's more important and I'll take that risk to see my son healthy and happy (which he thankfully is).
> 
> If a child that is un vaccinated comes in contact with my son and he or she is carrying an illness that he hasn't been vaccinated for, who is negatively affected?

Both of you are at risk, even when he is vaccinated. Vaccinated babies (ones vaccinated with the live vaccines) can actually pass that disease onto the unvaccinated, whereas an unvacc'd child can pass a different strain of disease onto him. 

The way you have to look at it, is every time you vaccinate, you are creating an artificial immune system and destroying their natural immune system. Every time someone is vaccinated there is a very high possibility that they virus or disease they were vaccinated against will mutate into something more dangerous.
Take the H1N1 (I think) virus, or the swine flu as it was better known. Several of my friends had the vaccine against it; and got a really bad strain of the virus, and ended up in hospital, because it was a mutated strain. I got the swine flu myself, but it was pretty subdued and now my body is better equipped to fight off all the strains, not just the artificially prevented one.


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## LannieDuck

Eve said:


> We decided to get the one for menengitis, as I know of a few children who have died because of it... chicken pox however? No... no need for it in my opinion and by injecting our children with all of these chemicals, I do wonder what we are really doing to their body and immune systems.

I can understand deciding to get/not to get/to delay individual vaccinations because you've researched the risks of that particular injection. I think I'd be sceptical of the benefits of a chicken pox vaccine too (we don't have it in the UK).

I have more difficulty understanding the blanket statements I sometimes hear that "I'm not vaccinating my child".


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## Eve

Ozzieshunni said:


> I know that I'm doing it because some of these illnesses could negatively impact Alex's heart. I have to make a choice as to what's more important and I'll take that risk to see my son healthy and happy (which he thankfully is).
> 
> If a child that is un vaccinated comes in contact with my son and he or she is carrying an illness that he hasn't been vaccinated for, who is negatively affected?

In your situation I would have vaccinated against anything that could do more harm to my child as well. It depends on the person IMO and their situation.


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## Ozzieshunni

I'm happy with our choices. Alex is healthy and his heart is fine. I reviewed risks of vaccinating with Alex's cardiologist and our GP. Both were fine with delaying the MMR.


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## Eve

LannieDuck said:


> Eve said:
> 
> 
> We decided to get the one for menengitis, as I know of a few children who have died because of it... chicken pox however? No... no need for it in my opinion and by injecting our children with all of these chemicals, I do wonder what we are really doing to their body and immune systems.
> 
> I can understand deciding to get/not to get/to delay individual vaccinations because you've researched the risks of that particular injection. I think I'd be sceptical of the benefits of a chicken pox vaccine too (we don't have it in the UK).
> 
> I have more difficulty understanding the blanket statements I sometimes hear that "I'm not vaccinating my child".Click to expand...

I run a natural parenting page on FB and most of them are very anti-vax and it bothers me to some degree, but I do fully believe it is their choice. I think you need to do your own proper research and come to your own conclusion on what you feel is best for your family at the time. I do not like the fact that we are vaccinating against usually harmless diseases though... it just makes me uneasy.

I was told once that vaccines should be used for their primary purpose. To protect those with immune system complications and those who are too poor to have fresh water, proper food, and access to good medical attention. 

Makes sense, but do I fully agree? I honestly don't know.


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## Eve

Ozzieshunni said:


> I'm happy with our choices. Alex is healthy and his heart is fine. I reviewed risks of vaccinating with Alex's cardiologist and our GP. Both were fine with delaying the MMR.

We have delayed the MMR and our doctor was fine with it... they were laughing and joking with me which made me feel better about my choices. As I have said before, I am not for or against them fully.


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## LannieDuck

Leopard said:


> Both of you are at risk, even when he is vaccinated. Vaccinated babies (ones vaccinated with the live vaccines) can actually pass that disease onto the unvaccinated, whereas an unvacc'd child can pass a different strain of disease onto him.
> 
> The way you have to look at it, is every time you vaccinate, you are creating an artificial immune system and destroying their natural immune system. Every time someone is vaccinated there is a very high possibility that they virus or disease they were vaccinated against will mutate into something more dangerous.
> Take the H1N1 (I think) virus, or the swine flu as it was better known. Several of my friends had the vaccine against it; and got a really bad strain of the virus, and ended up in hospital, because it was a mutated strain. I got the swine flu myself, but it was pretty subdued and now my body is better equipped to fight off all the strains, not just the artificially prevented one.

It's possible I've misunderstood, but I think what you're saying is, because we vaccinate against a particular strain of, e.g. flu, we're just helping other strains to become dominant?

That's true for flu, which is why they change the strains included in the vaccine every year in response to what's circulating.

And I don't think it's a reason not to vaccinate against nasty diseases like measles, which has a pretty high death rate. Sure, a new type of measles might come along in the future with a higher mortality rate, but it could be a long time coming (measles doesn't mutate quickly, unlike flu), and its extremely unlikely that the number of deaths caused would be so great as to nullify the good work done by the measles vaccine in the short term (the new-hypothetical strain might even be less lethal :shrug:).


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## tommyg

Not sure why social service are involve with delayed vacination.

I can't understand people refusing vacines measles can kill without discression of clean water or not. I worked with a man probably now in his 60's who caught polio as a child he was paralised down his right side and not being daft we had clean water etc in the UK 60 years ago. Meningitis - well god love Divinebeauty and her family don't think I need say more.

I stupidly refused the swine flu vacine. I ended up fighting for my life with it, a week in hospital and all sorts of ante viral and antebiotic drugs thrown at me, and oxygen. Thank fully both me and LO were ok.


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## Leopard

LannieDuck said:


> Leopard said:
> 
> 
> Both of you are at risk, even when he is vaccinated. Vaccinated babies (ones vaccinated with the live vaccines) can actually pass that disease onto the unvaccinated, whereas an unvacc'd child can pass a different strain of disease onto him.
> 
> The way you have to look at it, is every time you vaccinate, you are creating an artificial immune system and destroying their natural immune system. Every time someone is vaccinated there is a very high possibility that they virus or disease they were vaccinated against will mutate into something more dangerous.
> Take the H1N1 (I think) virus, or the swine flu as it was better known. Several of my friends had the vaccine against it; and got a really bad strain of the virus, and ended up in hospital, because it was a mutated strain. I got the swine flu myself, but it was pretty subdued and now my body is better equipped to fight off all the strains, not just the artificially prevented one.
> 
> It's possible I've misunderstood, but I think what you're saying is, because we vaccinate against a particular strain of, e.g. flu, we're just helping other strains to become dominant?
> 
> That's true for flu, which is why they change the strains included in the vaccine every year in response to what's circulating.
> 
> And I don't think it's a reason not to vaccinate against nasty diseases like measles, which has a pretty high death rate. Sure, a new type of measles might come along in the future with a higher mortality rate, but it could be a long time coming (measles doesn't mutate quickly, unlike flu), and its extremely unlikely that the number of deaths caused would be so great as to nullify the good work done by the measles vaccine in the short term (the new-hypothetical strain might even be less lethal :shrug:).Click to expand...

This isn't my only reason for not vaccinating. We are still deciding whether to delay or just not do it at all. Vaccinating is also closely link with autism and other psychological problems, it's known to weaken the body against other, non vaccine-preventable diseases, the antigens in the vaccines themselves can be quite dangerous to a developing body. I think we will probably end up leaving it up to her when she is older if she wants them. 
I have nothing against vaccinating mums, but for us it is a decision we did jot make lightly. The doctors originally made us delay her 2 month vaccinations because there was a possibility she was going to need surgery, now they have given the thumbs uo I have been informed her 2 month vaccs and her 4 months vaccs would be given 1 month apart. That is an overload of chemicals imo.


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## Ozzieshunni

The link between vaccinating and autism was disproved. Autism symptoms manifest around the same time the MMR vaccine is given. There was never a proven link. Even the researcher said his study was flawed :shrug:


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## Leopard

There have been new studies, but I'm too tired to find them for you.


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## 10.11.12

It&#8217;s been so rewarding to see the scientific progress being made toward understanding what causes autism and in developing better treatments for individuals with autism. While there are still a handful of parents who, in almost a religious way, cling to the notion that vaccines cause autism, the vast majority of parents and scientists have accepted what the data clearly show. There is no data to support an autism vaccine link. There never has been. Vaccines don&#8217;t cause autism.

A decade ago most agreed that we need to study vaccines in relation to autism. We had to reconcile the fact that the number of vaccines children were receiving was increasing, and at the same time, the number of children who were being diagnosed with autism also was on the rise. But fortunately this was a question that could be studied &#8211; and answered &#8211; by science. We looked at children who received vaccines and those who didn&#8217;t, or who received them on a different, slower schedule. There was no difference in their neurological outcomes. We&#8217;ve done multiple studies looking at the measles, mumps and rubella vaccination in relation to autism. We&#8217;ve looked at thimerosal, a mercury-based preservative, and its relation to autism. The studies are very clear; there is no relationship in the data between vaccines and autism. 

From the autism science foundation. 

Personally I don't agree with the flu vaccine as the strain changes yearly but I am in favor of the MMR, measles and polio.


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## LeeLouClare

I believe the MMR vaccine is very important - I do have to admit that's the only one I researched before I had a baby I had no idea they needed vaccines when they were small babies however I believe that the NHS wouldn't waste money on something that wasnt really needed

Anyway - each to their own - the social shouldn't be bothering you as its your choice!


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## Eve

I was given polio drops vaccine as a child and was paralyzed.. only thing moving was my eyes, and I was screaming in pain for over 12 hours without moving. My mom called help line and they said if it lasts longer than 12 hours to bring me in... she was terrified but they said it was normal????? Thank goodness I am okay now, but my oh my, how terrified my mother must have been.


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## roomaloo

Eve, at one point the polio vaccine was causing a hell of a lot of paralysis, haven't got the paper to hand but it think it was around 400 cases, when worldwide the the number of people catching polio (but not necessarily being paralysed from it) was about 1500ish. That's why they now use the inactive (killed) vaccine as the drops was a live one. Scary stuff!

Sadly a lot of developing countries are still having to use the live drops as the shot is too expensive.


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## Maman

im sorry leopard but i dont think what youre saying actually makes any sense. Vaccines dont damage the immune system, granted they dont cover EVERY strain of every virus but they certainly dont do any damage.

Where i live there are some childcare settings that require proof of vaccination for the child to be able to go there, and its valid. I wonder how many people in my town have chosen not to give their child the bcg thinking we are lower risk? I know of a man down the road who has active tb.


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## tommyg

roomaloo said:


> Eve, at one point the polio vaccine was causing a hell of a lot of paralysis, haven't got the paper to hand but it think it was around 400 cases, when worldwide the the number of people catching polio (but not necessarily being paralysed from it) was about 1500ish. That's why they now use the inactive (killed) vaccine as the drops was a live one. Scary stuff!
> 
> Sadly a lot of developing countries are still having to use the live drops as the shot is too expensive.

Even more sadly not every child in the world is being vaccinated against polio. India has only just been declaired free of polio, a year of no polio cases.

I suppose we should all be grateful to all the mothers all over the world who agreed to having their LO vacinated against smallpox which lead to its irridication


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## Eve

roomaloo said:


> Eve, at one point the polio vaccine was causing a hell of a lot of paralysis, haven't got the paper to hand but it think it was around 400 cases, when worldwide the the number of people catching polio (but not necessarily being paralysed from it) was about 1500ish. That's why they now use the inactive (killed) vaccine as the drops was a live one. Scary stuff!
> 
> Sadly a lot of developing countries are still having to use the live drops as the shot is too expensive.

Now that's a shame :( 

It was scary for my mom... I couldn't imagine! 

A friend of mine who was very weary about the h1n1 vaccine got it for her daughter who was around 2 at the time. She ended up having a siezure within a few hours due to a high fever. It still could have been worse, but I really do understand why people decide against the vaccines.


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## tommyg

Eve it must have been terrifying for your mum but think how much worse it would have been had you caught the actual virus.

It is just 3 weeks ago India was declaired polio free. The new report showed young kids play tennis in calapers that to me was horrible. It is such a preventable diease. 

If I was ever classed as a high risk group again for flu I'd have that seasons jag. I couldn't put my family through the "her lungs are full of fluid, her bloods full of acid, heart heart is racing, her kidneys are struggling the only organ not affected is her liver but we think we've got her in time" I was 36 week pregnant so it wasn't just me for them to think about.


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## Eve

That would have been so scary for you and your family :( I had the h1n1 shot while pregnant but before that, I was terribly ill for 2 weeks. High fever, bad flu. I was told by the doctor it was probably h1n1 but I wasn't convinced. I got the shot as I was pregnant and was high risk enough given my previous pregnancy ending at 37 weeks resulting in my son passing away the next day. I didn't want to risk it again. 

So glad you are okay and your LO too!


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## tommyg

I'm so sorry to hear about your son, i'm crying for you and an other reminder of how lucky I am.
Huge hugs


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## Eve

Thank you :hugs:

I was terrified to get the h1n1 shot as so many were freaking out about it, but the rissks of getting it to me were not as scary as the risk of losing my daughter or myself. 

With my son I had a placental abruption... not caused by anything, but yeah, it was terrible


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## MrsPOP

Let me just give you my recent experience with non-vaccination.

Im from the UK and my city is experiencing a massive measles outbreak due to non-vaxxers not isolating their children with the condition.

I took my LO into our local children's hospital 2 weeks ago as she had a non-blanching rash and we were worried about meningitis.

She was isolated in a part of the A&E where they put all of the suspected measles cases because she had a rash.

Luckily, she was ok from a suspected measles and meningitis point of view but because she is too young to have the MMR yet, we were warned she was at risk because she was in an area where measles cases had been.

During the few days afterwards she became even more unwell.

She then developed measles a couple of days later (as measles has a 7-10days incubatory period).

So I was angry, my daughter contracted a potentially life-threatening condition because of other's 'parenting choices' and also because they didnt do the sensible thing and keep their children at home.

And like Ozzi's little guy, my daughter has a heart condition. She has a hole in her heart and infectious illnesess can be even worse in children with congential heart conditions.

So I was even angrier.

And then...

my mother has terminal cancer and she was receiving palliative radiotherapy to her brain to reduce the awful symptoms of the cancer in her brain. She was halfway through her course of treatment (daily radiotherapy for a week) when we noticed my daughter's rash. We contacted the hospital and her oncologist straight away because my mum had been with my daughter and I every day for a week and we were concerned about my mother's health as she has had radiotherapy and is therefore immunocompromised and at risk of serious complications if she contracted illness like measles.

So I was angry that due to other's choices, my innocent daughter and dying mother were exposed to such things

But then...

the hospital had no choice but to CANCEL MY MOTHER'S RADIOTHERAPY. Because she'd had contact with measles.

That treatment had given my mum and my family hope that she would have lesser symptoms from her BRAIN CANCER than she had been experiencing. And it was cancelled. We were devestated.

Luckily after I discussed with the Health Protection Agency, the hospital agreed to continue the treatment but bring my mum in after hours, so she didnt put other cancer patients at risk.

So when you consider making this choice, I know your child is top priority and thats great. But remember your choice affects others.

Luckily my daughter is getting better and my mum has finished treatment.

But this has firmly solidified my already pretty solid opinion that to not vaccinate your children is not only irresponsible for your own children but irresponsible for the genera public.

Now, onto the social services thing.

Im a Doctor in the UK (so obviously this may not be applicable to you) but the health service here operates on a shared care protocol mostly. As far as child health care goes, the GPs and Health Visitors (and if they are involved Social Services) communicate between each other. The immunisations in my area are given by child nurse practioners and they communicate to the GP when they are given. So perhaps there is a protocol on your area that imms (or no imms in your case) are communicated to social care?

Also from another perspective. In the UK Doctors can break patient confidentality if they believe the patient's actions/inaction will cause themselves (or others') serious harm. Now Im not sure where you are from but perhaps your Doctor feels you are putting your child (and others) at risk (which you are doing so by not vaccinating) and is fulfilling their professional duty by informing social care?

(FYI Im not saying Doctors inform social services if you dont imm in the UK, Im not sure what happens here I will check when I am back off mat leave, Im just wondering if that is the case).


----------



## Ozzieshunni

Mrspop, that is what I am terrified of happening to Alex :hugs:


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## special_kala

All my girls vaccinations have been slightly delayed, I don't think any goverment authority has the right to question that.

I don't agree with not vaccinating at all though, whilst I feel more comfortable with my girls being a bit older for them I do think we all have a responsibility to vaccinate to protect the weaker members of society.


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## Mooshie

Can I ask the reasons why people choose to delay vaccinations as its not something I ever thought about. I'm genuinely interested.


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## special_kala

My reason is simply being more comfortable them being a bit older. It's a lot of stuff being put into their little bodys so I'd rather they were a bit older, even if its just a month.


----------



## Ozzieshunni

Mooshie said:


> Can I ask the reasons why people choose to delay vaccinations as its not something I ever thought about. I'm genuinely interested.

Based on some of the things I've read, the MMR is more effective at 15 months. It's a commonly delayed vaccine.


----------



## Vrinda

Vrinda said:


> LannieDuck said:
> 
> 
> Whilst I can't answer to the social office question (I'm in the UK, and I don't think social workers here have anything to do with vaccination), I feel I should point out that vaccination is one aspect of childcare that does impact other people. Some people can't vaccinate their children because of allergies/illnesses etc, and have to rely on herd immunity to provide protection from vaccine-preventable diseases.
> 
> As such, your choices do become other people's business.
> 
> I am listening to you, this is what pro vacciners would say all the time but it seems to me, there is one flaw in this argument. I've read vaccines itself are causing lots of problems with natural immunity ( I am not going into detail - there are plenty of books on the subject )
> Bless all the babies born with allergies or illness ( fyi,I read also that vaccinated kids are more allergic etc than non vaccinated ones stats )So seriously, I am thinking, why to put a totally healthy baby's immunity at risk by vaccinating on this reason alone? I mean, in order to protect(which I read it doesnt actually) lets say 1 percent of herd, why risk the health of remaining 99 percent?
> 
> And please if you( or anyone reading this) have better knowledge on the subject, more than welcome to shed some here.
> I am continiously researching on this matter.
> Trust me, its a hardest decision I've ever made in my life.
> 
> Since we are delaying the vaccines at the moment and do not want to give some vaccines which we think are not necessary as per the area we live.
> 
> Peace:flower:
> ( I am not going to argue about my choice-we are not against vaccination, it should be a choice since it has its own pros and cons-known )
> EDIT- My OH has family history of allergies and such autu immune diseases, one of the reasons why we delay
> 
> ON A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT NOTE
> I hate all the second hand smoke that is making us sick all the time we are out.
> Why is THIS not everyone's business and why is there no complete BAN on smoking or selling cigerretttes etc ?Click to expand...



Also yes the socials are the preventive ( hygiene) department and they are in touch with medical department here. Therefore the doctor told them about it. She could choose not to tell, but most probably looks like she is pressured from higher authorities to do that. 
I spoke with a lawyer and she said the same thing. Doctors do not know that law most of the times, and hence they think in such cases, to report the non vaccinated cases to hygiene/social department etc...
Some friends whose children are not vaccinated their doctors didnt create much problem ( only one did ) and then us. So it also depends on doctors and persons.

We are selectively vaccinating and delaying some.

Thank you ladies for your replies:flower:

Regarding allergies connection-I found this describes best
https://www.naturalnews.com/033858_unvaccinated_children_health.html


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## Ozzieshunni

Sorry, I'm not going to believe a homeopathic practitioner.


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## mummy2lola

I completely agree with people delaying vaccines if it's for a health reason for their baby but if the parent decides not to vaccinate at all I strongly believe that they are putting their own personal beliefs before the safety of their child and others.vaccines have helped wipe out many deadly deceases and if everyone believed that drs r just following protocol and we can do what we think is better than all the research that's been done than I dont doubt that many of us would not be here today having this conversation.if people are going to take it upon themselves to not vaccinate at all then they should also be aware that their children need to be kept indoors and not put others at risk.im sorry if that offends anyone but u can't always please everyone and this will always be a very strong debate with people who believe either way xx


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## Loui1001

I completely agree with Mummy2Lola. Delaying vaccinations is one thing but I can't understand why some parents refuse to vaccinate. If my child became seriously ill with a preventable disease as a result of not being vaccinated then I couldn't live with myself. And imagine that disease being passed on to a child with a weakened immune system or maybe one receiving chemo...... It's a completely horrific thought.


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## faun

When i was a child i caught measels and nearly died i was very ill the doctors told my parents i probably wouldn't make it through he night at one point and to say goodbye thankfully i am still here. I have had all my children vacinated but chose to delay the MMR till 15 months after some resarching i felt it would be more effective then.


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## Mooshie

Loui1001 said:


> I completely agree with Mummy2Lola. Delaying vaccinations is one thing but I can't understand why some parents refuse to vaccinate. If my child became seriously ill with a preventable disease as a result of not being vaccinated then I couldn't live with myself. And imagine that disease being passed on to a child with a weakened immune system or maybe one receiving chemo...... It's a completely horrific thought.

I absolutely agree too. I hadn't realised the reasons that parents would choose to delay vaccinations, but I do now that some ladies have explained (thanks girls!). 

I do however think it is utterly irresponsible to not vaccinate atall (unless for health reasons). We are so very fortunate in the western world to have these vaccines available to us as diseases like measles can and do kill. 

I simply cannot understand why you would expose your (and more importantly to me), MY child to such things. 

As a Type 1 Diabetic, I have a rubbish immune system but I vaccinate myself every year for flu and very recently for pneumonia. These things can be very dangerous for someone like me, but more importantly there are children and adults who have very compromised immune systems due to illness or chemo for example who cannot receive such vaccines and rely on the major public to keep these types of diseases at bay.


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## Vrinda

Vaccines alone have not really swiped out some diseases. Yes, vaccines did play a role, I am not denying it But better hygiene, food availability, living conditions improved, etc also played some part in it. Now we are dealing with other diseases: What about that?

It is a very important topic I think. 

I am not against vaccination but one friend did not vaccinate before and from then I am reading tons of things about it. 
I did vaccinate my LO but if I had better knowledge I would have delayed it.
Now we are delaying such as MMR etc.

I caught measles as a child, along with my brother, we both were terribly ill with fever for a week or so. But then we developed a life-long immunity to it 

Another concern to me with vaccination is this: It does not give you *life long immunity *against any diseases. And its also not 100 percent effective I read.
Therefore the outbreaks: So many vaccinated kids also get the diseases, sadly! 

Trust me the list goes on and on, there are pros and cons....
and as I said, its the hardest decision I made ( to delay) I was actually leaning more towards not vaccinating.And now we are opting out some, which we do not thing applies to area we live.
Plus again, my husband and his family got history of allergies and auto immune diseases and therefore it made us both think and re think about our decision.


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## Leopard

The measles and Rubella are pretty much nonexistant here, I didn't even know places still have outbreaks. Insane.


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## LannieDuck

Vrinda said:


> Regarding allergies connection-I found this describes best
> https://www.naturalnews.com/033858_unvaccinated_children_health.html

Be very cautious when accepting data that hasn't been properly peer reviewed and published in a scientific journal. You can 'prove' almost anything with poor statistics (my OH actually owns a book called 'How to lie with statistics' :haha:); if you want to do the study properly, you need to be rigorous about how you set it up, analyse your data, interprete your results etc. I'm not saying this guy wasn't, his study might be perfect... or it might not be. We don't know :shrug: It needs to be peer reviewed. 

(A very obvious problem I can see is that his unvaccinated group was significantly younger than his vaccinated group. He says that the allergy rates were higher among vaccinated children, but doesn't say whether that could just be because they're older and have had more time to develop allergies :wacko: 

He _almost_ addresses it on the page with the graphs - he gives the breakdown of allergies by age in the unvaccinated children and allows you to compare it to the breakdown by age in the vaccinated children (in German!), but doesn't do any statistical comparison himself. Why not? That's the only way he can demonstrate that his findings are valid and not simply a result of the age difference... and he doesn't do it. The only comparison I can see is the aggregated data, which is pretty much meaningless. 

This is someone who's trying to fool his audience into believing him by giving enough data to appear authoritative, but not enough to actually show what he's claiming.)

Again, I recommend Ben Goldacre's book 'Bad Science' - he has chapters describing why it's so important to be rigorous with studies. It's a very good book if you're at all interested.

Here's a properly conducted, peer reviewed study looking at the supposed link between allergy and vaccination: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1448377/ They found that there was a correlation, but that it wasn't causal.


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## tina3747

Leopard said:


> The measles and Rubella are pretty much nonexistant here, I didn't even know places still have outbreaks. Insane.

They're almost non existent because of vaccines!


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## womblemum

The nurseries in my area will not accept your child for daycare unless you show a full set of completed vaccinations. 

If you do not trust your doctor I would suggest you get a new one. I can't comment as to scientific studies etc but that is because I am not a doctor or an expert in diseases - as such I put my faith (while still using my brain) in those who do know what they are talking about.

My son gets his vaccinations on time and in full!


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## MrsPOP

^^^ Leopard, outbreaks occur because people don't vaccinate their children.

Vrinda, that's why there are booster vaccines to convey lifelong immunity.

I'd rather my child have numerous vaccines in order to develop lifelong immunity than her catch the disease, be at risk of DYING and develop lifelong immunity!!!!

I too had measles as a child and I remember it well, I was very ill.

However I would go through that a million times over again than to watch my daughter being so ill this past fortnight with measles, because of the 'choices' of other parents. :nope:

I feel vaccinating should be compulsory. Might sound drastic but wait until your kid catches measles and then perhaps you'll understand how I feel.


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## RebeccaG

If you've explained to your doctor (see a different doctor if you're not happy with one you've seen) that your husband has allergies and your delaying I can't see why they are bothered??? Unless you're in an area of risk... 
We delayed ours as we had good reason and the doctors and nurses were great, even suggesting we did separate jabs so DTap one visit and then men c next etc. We haven't been bothered by social?! We are now pretty much up to dare apart from one vaccine which he is getting this week. Will also delay MMR to 15 months although need to do more reading first. 
With info you find in Internet please make sure it's from a reputable source and not just lots of anecdotal evidence. Pubmed has some great papers. I know it is such a difficult decision to make I really do but I had to vaccinate in the end as I couldn't live with myself if he caught something I could of prevented...


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## Vrinda

Thanks Lannie for sharing that link. I am reading now it


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## LannieDuck

Leopard said:


> The measles and Rubella are pretty much nonexistant here, I didn't even know places still have outbreaks. Insane.

Unfortunately measles is coming back in the UK because of low rates of vaccine coverage. I'm pretty sure a little boy died of it in N Ireland a couple of years ago, but can't find a link offhand :nope:

https://www.hpa.org.uk/web/HPAweb&HPAwebStandard/HPAweb_C/1195733833790


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## Belle25

LannieDuck said:


> Leopard said:
> 
> 
> The measles and Rubella are pretty much nonexistant here, I didn't even know places still have outbreaks. Insane.
> 
> Unfortunately measles is coming back in the UK because of low rates of vaccine coverage. I'm pretty sure a little boy died of it in N Ireland a couple of years ago, but can't find a link offhand :nope:
> 
> https://www.hpa.org.uk/web/HPAweb&HPAwebStandard/HPAweb_C/1195733833790Click to expand...

Yes, its coming back-here at dd1s school, the other schools too-and its highly, highly contagious.
Its a worry when you have a lo and a school aged child too
xx


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## Pielette

I think most of us have a similar opinion - delaying is one thing, but not vaccinating full stop puts groups of children at risk, not just your own, and is unfair to society as a whole. The simple truth is that things like measles can kill. I would far rather my child have a vaccination to prevent that possibility instead of thinking of life long immunity created by catching it. 
Yes some vaccinations are different - the flu for example, which mutates, and I think if you're prone to catching it and you're pregnant, it's very important to get it, but if you never really catch it and it mutates every year there's little point. Some vaccinations should be viewed objectively, but I think it is our responsibility as parents to ensure that our children are as protected as possible, as well as the wider population, unless of course a child has a medical condition which would endanger him if he had a vaccination.


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## addie140910

I am delaying until Evelyn is older and has a bit of a stronger immune system. It is a personal choice and I understand that. We did have her get a Vitamin K shot at birth, but we did not get the Hepatitus shot. 

We are delaying the rest until she is bigger as well. For everyone who is Pro newborn vaccines I would say have a look at the stories in the newspapers, on websites, on the news, etc. written of the infants who have died horrible painful deaths as a result of those vaccines and the lives that were devastated by the loss of that child. 

In the end it is a personal choice. But when the risk of catching a particular disease is lower then the harm from the vaccine that is "supposedly safe" I don't see the need to risk it until she is bigger and her immune system is better developed.


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## Vrinda

Oh the MMR vaccine, I've read so much about it, its concerning me. Its got 3 live viruses in one shot. Measles outbreak is a concern, so is it not possible to give separate shots ? Did anyone do alternate schedule and splits vaccine ? We are currently thinking of delaying it, but anyone with experience please need to hear your opinions regarding splitting.

We are consulting another doctor now who is more understanding of our choices


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## babyhopes2010

its up to you.

personally imo i cant see any reason not to vaccinate my child


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## Eve

Less Measles and chicken pox... more cancer...? I am not saying this is the case, I am just sharing thoughts. Cancer is everywhere. Childhood cancers etc... :( It all scares me and sadly who do you really trust?
Heck, my doctor told me to let my baby CIO (which is dangerous), not to feed on demand (which is against our own LOs needs), didn't even mention breastfeeding to me (which I feel is a bigger health risk then people let on.......) told me to put my son in his own room from birth (SIDS??????) & more. 

Things change every day, new things are being found and amazing research is being done. Who knows what we will find out 5-50 years from now :shrug: 

I know it worries me and I feel sick every time I have allowed a doctor/nurse inject my daughter with lord knows what :sick:


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## Lil_Pixie

I never saw the flu vaccine in the same way tbh. I get a letter every year saying I'm high risk and entitled to the jab (don't suppose anyone knows what makes a person high risk?) my employer also provides flu jabs - I've never had flu so I've never bothered with the jab.


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## LannieDuck

Vrinda said:


> Oh the MMR vaccine, I've read so much about it, its concerning me. Its got 3 live viruses in one shot. Measles outbreak is a concern, so is it not possible to give separate shots ? Did anyone do alternate schedule and splits vaccine ? We are currently thinking of delaying it, but anyone with experience please need to hear your opinions regarding splitting.
> 
> We are consulting another doctor now who is more understanding of our choices

Here's some info on the single vaccines vs MMR: https://www.hpa.org.uk/Topics/InfectiousDiseases/InfectionsAZ/MMR/GeneralInformation/

I think this is the important part: "Single vaccines imported into this country [UK] have not been independently tested for potency and toxicity - we have evidence that some of the single vaccines are less effective or less safe than MMR."


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## LannieDuck

Lil_Pixie said:


> I never saw the flu vaccine in the same way tbh. I get a letter every year saying I'm high risk and entitled to the jab (don't suppose anyone knows what makes a person high risk?) my employer also provides flu jabs - I've never had flu so I've never bothered with the jab.

If you're in the UK, the CMO's advice is that you need a seasonal flu vaccination if:

You are aged 65 years or over
If you are aged 6 months or over and fall into the following risk group :

1. Chronic respiratory disease, including asthma [...]
2. Chronic heart disease
3. Chronic renal disease
4. Chronic liver disease
5. Chronic neurological disease*
6. Diabetes requiring insulin or oral hypoglycaemic drugs
7. Immunosuppression
8. Pregnant

* GPs should consider on an individual basis [...]

Vaccination is also recommended for those living in long-stay residential homes [...]
Vaccination is also recommended for carer's defined as those who are in receipt of a carer's allowance, or those who are the main carer for an elderly or disabled person whose welfare may be at risk if the carer falls ill. [...]
In addition, it is recommended that immunisation be offered to all health care workers [...]

(https://www.hpa.org.uk/Topics/Infec...ic/influsFrequentlyaskedquestionsoninfluenza/)


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## pinklightbulb

E is not vax'd, but we will be starting very soon.


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## Ozzieshunni

Yeah, I get a flu vaccine because I have allergies. I remember getting one when I was pregnant too, but that had no impact on Alex's heart as the lupus antibodies were already there that damaged his heart.

It scares me that measles is making a comeback. In the USA, it's mandatory for children to be vaccinated before attending public school, unless there is a religious or medical reason not to. It doesn't say when they need it, they just need it before attending school at age 5. Boosters are also mandatory.


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## Lil_Pixie

Thanks for that. Although I don't have any of those things lol. Maybe they offer it to me by mistake and no ones ever noticed because I've never taken them up on it!


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## tu123

This is a public forum so i will speak my mind.

How owuld you feel if your LO got sick with mealses and was in hospital with a tracheostomy, being ventilated and having powerful, bleach like drugs poured into the system? It would mostly be your fault. Wouldnt you do everyting in your power to protect the child you gave birth to?

If they made it through but were paralysed or couldnt speak anymore, how would you feel about nursing them until you die, knowing what you did?

I have read the rhetorical experiences and papers posted on similar threads. They are all a bunch of quack and completly invalid. 

It is unsafe for the general public, unsafe for your child.

Delaying? OK. Not vaccinating because of medical reasons? OK. But NOT vaccintaing because of trash read on the net should in my mind be a reportable offence.


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## chysantheMUM

We have and will be vaccinating. However, I completely understand and respect others right to choose not to vaccinate.

I have witnessed first hand the damage that vaccines can do (albeit this child was vaccinated in the 70's and a lot has changed now). But I happen to know a women who has a child who is severely disabled and who she has to attend to (clothe, clean, feed, change his nappy!) and this child is now in his 30's. He was born a healthy, happy baby but immediately after having his 9 month vaccination (I have no idea what kind) he became seriously ill and has never been the same. Because of this one act, his life and hers were changed forever and I find that very scary! I realise it is very rare for side effects like this to occur but unfortunately they do happen and I don't think a parent can ever be blamed for deciding not to take that risk. Its a hard decision to make and no-one should take it lightly.


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## x_Rainbow_x

Izzy is having her vaccination and she will continue all of them, personally i dnt believe in NOT vaccinating. They are there to benefit her. :)


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## Menelly

addie140910 said:


> I am delaying until Evelyn is older and has a bit of a stronger immune system. It is a personal choice and I understand that. We did have her get a Vitamin K shot at birth, but we did not get the Hepatitus shot.
> 
> We are delaying the rest until she is bigger as well. For everyone who is Pro newborn vaccines I would say have a look at the stories in the newspapers, on websites, on the news, etc. written of the infants who have died horrible painful deaths as a result of those vaccines and the lives that were devastated by the loss of that child.
> 
> In the end it is a personal choice. But when the risk of catching a particular disease is lower then the harm from the vaccine that is "supposedly safe" I don't see the need to risk it until she is bigger and her immune system is better developed.

See, that's one I refused. I'm 100% sure I don't have Hep B. My infant is not having sex or sharing needles. So I refused the Hep B at birth.

I WILL, for example, get the menengitis one as soon as she's supposed to. There's been pertussis outbreaks in my area, so I'll get her the DTaP on time. I'm not getting the chicken pox vaccine for her, unless she doesn't get the chicken pox naturally by age 10 or so. I think parents can make some reasonable decisions, but everyone needs to remember that others are affected by this choice. It's not a choice you are making only for your child.


----------



## 10.11.12

https://digestive.niddk.nih.gov/ddiseases/pubs/hepb_ez/ 

This is a good page for basic facts about how hep b is spread and who gets it.


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## mama_t

vaccinating here in Kuwait is mandatory and Im glad it is, out LO had to have the BCG as well. I dont even want to know where this country would be if it was up to the parents to decide!
My son was born in Germany and we were there until he was 6, he also has all his vaccines.


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## mama_t

vaccinating here in Kuwait is mandatory and Im glad it is, out LO had to have the BCG as well. I dont even want to know where this country would be if it was up to the parents to decide!
My son was born in Germany and we were there until he was 6, he also has all his vaccines.


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## milf2be

im all for people parenting how they like and keeping an open mind on different parenting techniques....this is the one thing i personally think should be mandatory though. it never crossed my mind not to take him


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## Lil_Pixie

It was just on the news about an outbreak of measles in merseyside. 85
Confirmed cases plus 41 suspected. Most of those were kids who haven't been immunised. Says it all really. 

Mrs pop I hope your little lady is feeling better x


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## lisa1980

I've read A LOT of stuff on vaccinating (as Lannie says, only peer-reviewed journals from reputable sources - pubmed is good. All other 'evidence' on the internet is useless IMO, especially if they don't share their raw data and method) and I am happily (and gratefully - a lot of these diseases still kill large numbers in countries not lucky/rich enough to vaccinate) taking my LO for his jabs.

I second the recommendation for Ben Goldacre's book Bad Science. An excellent read which explodes all the myths surrounding this stuff (again, using only reliable, quality studies to do it).

Each to their own, but I personally feel this subject is too important (to ALL children, not just your own) to base your decision on anything less than robust evidence. :flower:


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## Leopard

When we say we won't be vaccinating, at this stage it doesn't mean much. 5 vaccinations one time or some such number and then 5 vaccinations a month later doesn't it well in my books. As I said, I'm yet to hear of a measles outbreak here, and if one were to happen, the whole country would go into lockdown quicker then you can say 'bobs your uncle'. The same thing happened with menigingcoccal (sp?) which is a vaccination I did have in grade 5 and ended up in hospital. Besides, we do have a medical reasons :)


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## Ozzieshunni

That was one of my exceptions I did mention. If there is a valid medical reason not to vaccinate, by all means, don't vaccinate. I remember a girl on BnB mentioning her LO had a violent reaction to vaccinations. If there is no valid medical or religious reason, a child should be vaccinated, in my opinion. I did ask if vaccinating Alex would harm his heart and I was told no by the cardiologist.


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## milf2be

Leopard said:


> When we say we won't be vaccinating, at this stage it doesn't mean much. 5 vaccinations one time or some such number and then 5 vaccinations a month later doesn't it well in my books. As I said, I'm yet to hear of a measles outbreak here, and if one were to happen, the whole country would go into lockdown quicker then you can say 'bobs your uncle'. The same thing happened with menigingcoccal (sp?) which is a vaccination I did have in grade 5 and ended up in hospital. Besides, we do have a medical reasons :)

you dont hear about massive outbreaks because the majority of the population have been vaccinated. i cant remember if it was measles or not, but i know one disease was on the rise because people stopped vaccinating their children because of all the bull in the media


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## Ozzieshunni

It was measles and it was because of the false research published on the link between MMR and Autism.


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## x_Rainbow_x

yeah it was measles. we asked about it when she was born and the HV told us where to look on the 1 report linking it to bad, and said it was down to us what we chose to do but she recommends vaccinating. 1 report wasnt enough 2 convince us lol


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## Eve

Kay has had her first MMR vaccine, but she will not be getting any more until she is going to school, and our doctor and health nurse both suggested it like that. They explained it wasn't a big deal and that most vaccines have a 3 year leway (sp)


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## pinklightbulb

There are always outbreaks of whooping cough here, and I know 99% of kids are vax'd in my area (so I'm screamed at about by my CHN) so I've no idea how it keeps turning up all the bloody time. I can't wait till I can get E done against WC since it's always turning up. I'm so paranoid :cry: I hate that he isn't done.
He won't get the MMR but as Leopard said those diseases are very rare in Australia and that is probably thanks to all the vax'ing mums, and I am very grateful for that.


----------



## tommyg

LannieDuck said:


> Leopard said:
> 
> 
> The measles and Rubella are pretty much nonexistant here, I didn't even know places still have outbreaks. Insane.
> 
> Unfortunately measles is coming back in the UK because of low rates of vaccine coverage. I'm pretty sure a little boy died of it in N Ireland a couple of years ago, but can't find a link offhand :nope:
> 
> https://www.hpa.org.uk/web/HPAweb&HPAwebStandard/HPAweb_C/1195733833790Click to expand...

I went looking on the BBC website to see if I could see anything about a child dying recently. However I am well aware that measles does kill, my mum remembers somebody loosing a small child to measles when my sister and I were young.

I am shocked that 1 in 15 infected will have complications with measles so given the number of infections are going up then you have to assume there will be a number with complications who just don't pull through or are left brain damaged because of it. 

https://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/7754052.stm


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## pinklightbulb

The MMR is the most refused vaccine here but we still have very low rates of cases, which makes no sense but I'm still grateful for as OH won't let E get MMR over his dead body. He is why E is not vax'd now but now E is over 2, I will be starting the register thank God.


----------



## LannieDuck

tommyg said:


> LannieDuck said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Leopard said:
> 
> 
> The measles and Rubella are pretty much nonexistant here, I didn't even know places still have outbreaks. Insane.
> 
> Unfortunately measles is coming back in the UK because of low rates of vaccine coverage. I'm pretty sure a little boy died of it in N Ireland a couple of years ago, but can't find a link offhand :nope:
> 
> https://www.hpa.org.uk/web/HPAweb&HPAwebStandard/HPAweb_C/1195733833790Click to expand...
> 
> I went looking on the BBC website to see if I could see anything about a child dying recently. However I am well aware that measles does kill, my mum remembers somebody loosing a small child to measles when my sister and I were young.
> 
> I am shocked that 1 in 15 infected will have complications with measles so given the number of infections are going up then you have to assume there will be a number with complications who just don't pull through or are left brain damaged because of it.
> 
> https://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/7754052.stmClick to expand...

Hmm... I've found reference to a teenager in NW England dying of measles in 2006. That might be the one I was trying to remember (possibly not a young Irish boy afterall!): https://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/4871728.stm


----------



## tommyg

LannieDuck said:


> tommyg said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LannieDuck said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Leopard said:
> 
> 
> The measles and Rubella are pretty much nonexistant here, I didn't even know places still have outbreaks. Insane.
> 
> Unfortunately measles is coming back in the UK because of low rates of vaccine coverage. I'm pretty sure a little boy died of it in N Ireland a couple of years ago, but can't find a link offhand :nope:
> 
> https://www.hpa.org.uk/web/HPAweb&HPAwebStandard/HPAweb_C/1195733833790Click to expand...
> 
> I went looking on the BBC website to see if I could see anything about a child dying recently. However I am well aware that measles does kill, my mum remembers somebody loosing a small child to measles when my sister and I were young.
> 
> I am shocked that 1 in 15 infected will have complications with measles so given the number of infections are going up then you have to assume there will be a number with complications who just don't pull through or are left brain damaged because of it.
> 
> https://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/7754052.stmClick to expand...
> 
> Hmm... I've found reference to a teenager in NW England dying of measles in 2006. That might be the one I was trying to remember (possibly not a young Irish boy afterall!): https://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/4871728.stmClick to expand...

I did't look that far back but I wouldn't be surprised if there were others just not widely reported in more recent times


----------



## whit.

Didn't read all of the replies, but there was a measles outbreak not far from me at the super bowl this year. The 13 kids who became infected weren't vaccinated. :nope:

Its such a hard decision for a parent to make anyway, I wish people wouldn't push us one way or another.


----------



## 05mummy07

It's a tough one. 

I personally do not agree with no vaxing, I don't see why any parent wouldn't want to, but that's my personal opinion and not everyone will be the same. 

However, a LOT of schools now will not accept children who are not up to date with their vaccinations, not sure how this works where you're from, but you might want to check with your local schools whether they take on unvaccinated children.


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## jenniferttc1

Im clueless about vaccinations, I just know that they your child has to have them to get into schools and daycares around here. 
Why do some women refuse them?


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## pinklightbulb

My OH refused them not me, and made it clear if I got them done behind his back there would be trouble. His first boy had an adverse reaction to the MMR and so he didn't want E done at all, but I've talked him into starting very soon now E is over 2.


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## 05mummy07

I can understand delayed vaccines if a previous child had an adverse reaction, it must make you feel a little on edge about future children having the same vaccination. 

I just don't understand the not getting them done at all, unless there was a tragic incident concerning one, then I'd be all for not letting another child have it x


----------



## pinklightbulb

No, I was never not going to get E done, it was just a matter of when I could get OH to back down at least concerning the other vaccines. I knew I never would about the MMR but at least he's seeing reason now and I can get E started on the rest.


----------



## Leopard

We won't be getting the whooping cough vaccination. It only springs up in our area once very 5-10 years. I don't have it, never did, neither does DF so we won't be forcing LO to get it either (pertussis if you don't know it's proper name). We also refused the Hep B vaccination at birth and she only had the vitamin K injection. We will probably refuse the Hep B as well this time. We've been talking about it, and we will probably to select vaccination when she is older.
Children here can go to school whether vaccinated or not; it just means if there is an outbreak (other than chicken pox) they usually have to stay at home. With regards to the MMR, we might do the rubella, but we are still deciding on the mumps and measles. I had to have my rubella booster after LO was born, but only because my body often refuses to build artificial immunities to them; which is why often enough I have to catch the virus to kill the virus so to speak. 
If LO is anything like DF or myself, there is a high likely hood that nearly every vaccination she gets will make her sick; and because of her kidneys running on low, she does not have a good filtering system to help prevent that. I inherited it off my mother (the only vaccination that has not made me sick was my rubella shot), she gets ill off every vaccination. Genetic hand-overs are very common in our family so I do not doubt for a second that the same will not happen to her. 

IMO the chicken pox vaccination is probably the silliest one of the lot. The vaccine only protects you for 25-30yrs from the date you have it, whereas getting the chicken pox protect you for a life time, though I can still get shingles; the rate of people who get shingles is higher in vaccinated people (those vacc'd against chicken pox) than it is in people who have contracted the chicken pox naturally.


----------



## Quackquack99

I am for vaccinating. I remember at school there was an outbreak of mumps and it was 3 people who weren't vaccinated that caught it.
I just think about future case scenarios, for example if I don't vaccinate my daughter and she has a baby and catches rubella during pregnancy and suffers complication - that ultimately would be my fault and I can't ever put my lo at risk.

I just think with the huge increase of immigration then it is importan to vax children unless there is medical reasoning against it.


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## darkangel1981

we are vaccinating. IMO i don't think its worth the risk not to.


----------



## tommyg

pinklightbulb said:


> No, I was never not going to get E done, it was just a matter of when I could get OH to back down at least concerning the other vaccines. I knew I never would about the MMR but at least he's seeing reason now and I can get E started on the rest.

Why is your OH so anti vaccines? 
How would you ever forgive him if LO was to be seriously ill with something that you could have so easily prevented but didn't because he didn't want to prevent it instead wanted to run the risk?


----------



## pinklightbulb

tommyg said:


> pinklightbulb said:
> 
> 
> No, I was never not going to get E done, it was just a matter of when I could get OH to back down at least concerning the other vaccines. I knew I never would about the MMR but at least he's seeing reason now and I can get E started on the rest.
> 
> Why is your OH so anti vaccines?
> How would you ever forgive him if LO was to be seriously ill with something that you could have so easily prevented but didn't because he didn't want to prevent it instead wanted to run the risk?Click to expand...

As I said above, his first boy had a very bad reaction to the MMR so he kicked off about vax'ing his second, which I can understand... bad experiences colour how you think in lots of circumstances. 

How would I forgive him? Well, I wouldn't, but I would know that he truly thought it in E's best interest not to vax because of his first boy and what happened there. How could I hate him for thinking he was protecting E from the same? I couldn't. 

So in short, no, I wouldn't forgive him... but I couldn't hate him as he thought he was truly doing the right thing by his son. He didn't see it as running a risk that E would catch something, he saw it as running a risk that E would have an adverse reaction if we vax'd him and thought that was more likely than E catching something (in this area, very true. We have nearly no cases of measles etc, the only thing that springs up is whooping cough and if there is a known outbreak, I keep E away from other kids when out and don't let him touch anything like shopping trolleys other kids have been sat in, he stays in his stroller and can't really be all that exposed.)

Sorry for the novel but I just had to put it out there that some parents see it as more of a risk to vax than not vax. I personally wanted him done but didn't want to ruin my relationship over it either, which would have been the case if I'd got E done as OH feels so strongly about it. I can't change his past experiences when it comes down to it. It's not fair but that's how it went for us.


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## Eve

People who decide not to vaccinate or delay vaccinations are doing so because they believe it is in their child's best interest... Maybe in some circumstances they are wrong, but I find it sad such judgment is passed on parents attempting to do the best for their children. 

PLB- I do understand exactly what you mean. I would be a lot more nervous about vaccines if my previous child had a bad reaction.


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## MrsPOP

I would understand people are trying to do their best for their children if it wasn't putting my own child at risk, just as they are putting their own children at risk.

God forbid any of your children contract a preventable illness. Seeing my innocent child so poorly from measles was horrendous. I wouldn't wish that on anybody. Luckily she didn't develop a serious complication but she could have had.


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## whit.

Leopard, I guess I just don't understand how you know you will have a reaction to shots if you've never had them.


I didn't leave with Sophia for 2 weeks when the measles outbreak happened 3 hours from me. I'm still very cautious going out. I would hate for her to catch something that could be preventable with a shot, that she hasn't had yet.


----------



## MizzDeeDee

MrsPOP said:


> I would understand people are trying to do their best for their children if it wasn't putting my own child at risk, just as they are putting their own children at risk.
> 
> God forbid any of your children contract a preventable illness. Seeing my innocent child so poorly from measles was horrendous. I wouldn't wish that on anybody. Luckily she didn't develop a serious complication but she could have had.

:blush: We HAVE to stop meeting like this!

I agree with you. I don't care what people do if they feel it is in the better interest of their child, but when it can effect my child I take notice.


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## pinklightbulb

I am sorry your child is at risk because of mine, but the truth is, they pose a risk to each other, not just the unvax'd to the vax'd. For all I know my son isn't carrying anything, but yours could have just been done and the vaccine could be shedding. I could vax my son and he could get something anyway.
Some instances of vaxing gone wrong in my experience... my OH was done against MMR and got all three as a child. My mother was done against MMR and got rubella in her pregnancy with my brother causing him to be profoundly deaf and slightly brain damaged. She was done three times and never produced antibodies. How many other kids have been done but never produced any? My mother never knew until my brother was affected in her pregnancy when she caught rubella :shrug:
Anyway, my point is, risks are risks, we all take them. I am not against vaxing. FTR I *wanted* my son done but my OH kicked up such a fuss I backed down. I really did not want E to have a broken home over bloody vaccinations because that's what would've happened had I done him behind OH's back. 
Please, please don't always think non-vaxing mums are not vaxing because THEY don't want to. Sometimes other circumstances--like mine--prevent a child from being vaxed. I am sorry that E is a 'risk' to other children, but in truth, they are a risk to him too. Vaxing isn't a guarantee your child won't get ill, same as not vaxing isn't a guarantee they will.


----------



## Eve

MrsPOP said:


> I would understand people are trying to do their best for their children if it wasn't putting my own child at risk, just as they are putting their own children at risk.
> 
> God forbid any of your children contract a preventable illness. Seeing my innocent child so poorly from measles was horrendous. I wouldn't wish that on anybody. Luckily she didn't develop a serious complication but she could have had.

Yes, God forbid *ANY* child contracts a preventable disease.


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## Eve

I should find out what I wasn't immune to after I had my daughter. I had to be given a "vaccine" but was so busy trying to breastfeed my daughter to calm her down from blood work, I didn't even listen to them....... 

I had ALL vaccines available, even one that paralyzed me for hours that was "supposed" to be safe at the time.


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## pinklightbulb

I am immune to everything but Hep B, which I refused in my pregnancy when they told me. I'm still not because I never went and got it done after I had him and now I'll have to wait till after L is born.


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## Eve

maybe that's it... I really don't remember


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## whit.

The only shot I got at the hospital was for whooping cough.


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## blhanson1

x


----------



## Maxy1

I am in NZ and find this conversation interesting. To mothers that delay MMR to 15 months - this is the first time that the MMR is even offered to my child, at 15 months and 4 years old! Secondly, I also did vit K at birth, but there was never a question of offering him Hep B unless I was a carrier. There is no record of offering a chicken pox vaccination on his vax list!! So if all the countries have different timing (and NZ is by no way a developing country as far as health goes) then delaying doesn't really seem to be an issue.

I agree it is a social conscience decision as un-vaxd kids affect other ppl in the community who have compromised immune systems, such as those receiving chemo. And yes, everybody has the chance of getting one of these diseases that are vax'd against but the risk of getting it for the child that is vax'd is far far less than those who are not.

I am unsure as to why social services would be called on anyone who decided not to vaccinate their children though. It should be recorded and, as in my country and apparently Australia, un-vaxd children are required to NOT attend school and stay within their homes, if the community has a high incidence of the disease occurring until the incidence levels return to normal.


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## pinklightbulb

Yes, my son if not vax'd will be asked not to attend school. I don't like that idea and want him done before he hits that age. At present he won't be accepted into any creche or anything either.


----------



## MizzDeeDee

pinklightbulb said:


> I am sorry your child is at risk because of mine, but the truth is, they pose a risk to each other, not just the unvax'd to the vax'd. For all I know my son isn't carrying anything, but yours could have just been done and the vaccine could be shedding. I could vax my son and he could get something anyway.
> Some instances of vaxing gone wrong in my experience... my OH was done against MMR and got all three as a child. My mother was done against MMR and got rubella in her pregnancy with my brother causing him to be profoundly deaf and slightly brain damaged. She was done three times and never produced antibodies. How many other kids have been done but never produced any? My mother never knew until my brother was affected in her pregnancy when she caught rubella :shrug:
> Anyway, my point is, risks are risks, we all take them. I am not against vaxing. FTR I *wanted* my son done but my OH kicked up such a fuss I backed down. I really did not want E to have a broken home over bloody vaccinations because that's what would've happened had I done him behind OH's back.
> Please, please don't always think non-vaxing mums are not vaxing because THEY don't want to. Sometimes other circumstances--like mine--prevent a child from being vaxed. I am sorry that E is a 'risk' to other children, but in truth, they are a risk to him too. Vaxing isn't a guarantee your child won't get ill, same as not vaxing isn't a guarantee they will.

I agree with everything you wrote actually... BUT there ARE moms that just don't vaccinate because they just don't want to. 

I get your situation. I get about severe reactions too. I am well aware that not EVERYONE can vaccinate their kids. What I don't get are parents that either just don't vaccinate for no good reason OR they use outdated or disproven information(If I hear the Autism link again I'll scream). 

The problem with that ^^ is that it doesn't do my child OR your child any favors. Your child and mine, if she doesn't have a paticular vaccine.. has to rely on everyone else being vaccinated OR immune. The more kids that get vaccinated the better for society in the long run I think. If the kids THAT could get vaccinated did, then the small amount that couldn't would hopefully be protected. 

As for the shedding- I think that has to be close contact and from what I read it's pretty rare. From what I read, it's chicken poxs, flu, and Polio- which we don't even do here- that sheds and it's more likely for a caregiver to be most at risk. Shedding typically doesn't lead to transmission from what I've read.


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## Eve

Here we do chicken pox, flu etc... well I don't. 

I do not get flu shots and I haven't for my kids either, except the H1N1


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## DLA

wow lot of good info on this thread. My OH's niece's baby is only 5 weeks older than my son so we get together all the time. A while back we had them together. They "played" (really just laid next to each other lol) on my son's playmat but of course were grabbing the same toys and grabbing each other. Then next day, OH's niece called in the middle of the night to tell me her baby was admitted to the hospital for meningitis. Poor little thing had to have a spinal tap, had trouble breathing and was pumped with numberous drugs. I was HYSTERICAL at the thought of my son getting this, going through pain & suffering, or potentially worse. He wasn't even 2 months old. By the grace of god my son did not catch it & his cousin recovered after a few days in the hospital. I can't help but wonder how he caught it but will obviously never know. I do everything I can to protect my son. It horrifies me that I can do everything in my power and he can still get sick, but that's just a fact of life. It angers me that my son can be exposed to something that could hurt or kill him that could be preventable by a simple vaccine. Obviously some have legit medical reasons to not vaccinate but generally speaking I agree that it's irresponsible not vaccinate at all.


----------



## MizzDeeDee

Eve said:


> Here we do chicken pox, flu etc... well I don't.
> 
> I do not get flu shots and I haven't for my kids either, except the H1N1

We get them here too. We don't do the Polio one I think.. or it is not a live vaccine I think? Something like that.


----------



## pinklightbulb

MizzDeeDee said:


> I definitely wanted to vax him. It wasn't how I wanted it having him not, and didn't sit well but really, I was given no choice by my OH. It was either get him done and OH breaking up with me over it, leaving me a single mother and E with a broken home, or not vaxing until I could talk OH around (which I have now) and taking appropriate precautions, which was clearly the easier choice for me. I say to every mum whose child comes to play with E that he isn't vax'd, so it isn't uncommon knowledge. Other mums are given the choice whether to let their kids play with mine. I try to be as responsible as possible about it.


----------



## MizzDeeDee

pinklightbulb said:


> MizzDeeDee said:
> 
> 
> I definitely wanted to vax him. It wasn't how I wanted it having him not, and didn't sit well but really, I was given no choice by my OH. It was either get him done and OH breaking up with me over it, leaving me a single mother and E with a broken home, or not vaxing until I could talk OH around (which I have now) and taking appropriate precautions, which was clearly the easier choice for me. I say to every mum whose child comes to play with E that he isn't vax'd, so it isn't uncommon knowledge. Other mums are given the choice whether to let their kids play with mine. I try to be as responsible as possible about it.
> 
> :hugs:Click to expand...


----------



## whit.

I thought the polio vaccine was given orally? 

I could be wrong. I'll have to check Sophia's shot record.


----------



## Leopard

whit. said:


> Leopard, I guess I just don't understand how you know you will have a reaction to shots if you've never had them.
> 
> 
> I didn't leave with Sophia for 2 weeks when the measles outbreak happened 3 hours from me. I'm still very cautious going out. I would hate for her to catch something that could be preventable with a shot, that she hasn't had yet.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by how I know I'll have a reaction if I don't have them? I've had almost all my shots, except for chicken pox, pertussis and the flu shots. (though I did have 2 flu shots when I was younger and ended up in critical care).


----------



## redstiletto

MrsPOP said:


> Doctors can break patient confidentality if they believe the patient's actions/inaction will cause themselves (or others') serious harm.

This :thumbup:

I'm a pedi nurse in the states and our protocols are very similar. 

At least you are DELAYING...better than NOT VACCINATING. Some pediatricians here have no qualms with delaying while others prefer sticking to the schedule. Some of those that do delay, however, end up not vaccinating. It's your healthcare team's job to educate; social workers are part of this team as well. They may seem very pushy, but again, they are just doing their job in protecting you, your family, and the general public.

Mrspop: :hugs: What an ordeal!


----------



## pinklightbulb

MizzDeeDee said:


> pinklightbulb said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MizzDeeDee said:
> 
> 
> I definitely wanted to vax him. It wasn't how I wanted it having him not, and didn't sit well but really, I was given no choice by my OH. It was either get him done and OH breaking up with me over it, leaving me a single mother and E with a broken home, or not vaxing until I could talk OH around (which I have now) and taking appropriate precautions, which was clearly the easier choice for me. I say to every mum whose child comes to play with E that he isn't vax'd, so it isn't uncommon knowledge. Other mums are given the choice whether to let their kids play with mine. I try to be as responsible as possible about it.
> 
> :hugs:Click to expand...
> 
> Thank you hun :hugs:Click to expand...


----------



## tommyg

whit. said:


> I thought the polio vaccine was given orally?
> 
> I could be wrong. I'll have to check Sophia's shot record.

When its given as a live vaccine its oral but most countries use the inactive shot instead. Unlikely that she won't have had it assuming shes had all the recommended jags.

The WHO are trying to irridicate it, I think the 3 countries still with it are packistan, Nigeria, and not so sure about the last one but think its Kuwait. The last thing they'd want to happen is to stop vaccinating too soon and for it to make a come back in other countries.


----------



## Ozzieshunni

I remember getting polio in a liquid. They do give it in the USA and the UK.


----------



## whit.

Right. Sophia has had 2 rounds of polio shots.
Rota virus is given orally.


----------



## Leopard

Something interesting I found on the Heb B shot:



> Startling new research published in the journal Apoptosis indicates that hepatitis B vaccine, which is designed to prevent Hepatitis B virus-induced damage to the liver, actually causes liver cell destruction.
> 
> Researchers found the hepatitis B vaccine induced a &#8220;loss of mitochondrial integrity, apoptosis induction, and cell death&#8221; in liver cells exposed to a low dose of adjuvanted hepatitis B vaccine.
> The adjuvant used was aluminum hydroxide, which is increasingly being identified as a contributing cause of autoimmune disease in immunized populations.
> 
> The discovery that the hepatitis B vaccine damages the liver (hepatotoxicity) confirms earlier findings (1999) that the vaccine increases the incidence of liver problems in U.S. children less than 6 years old by up to 294% versus unvaccinated controls.
> 
> Furthermore, as the Hepatitis B virus is only transmitted through blood or semen by those who are infected, which are two routes of exposure for an infant - except where the mother is a carrier, and therefore can transmit it vertically to her offspring, the routine vaccination of all newborns in hospitals is unnecessary (hospitals could screen mothers for Hepatitis B preemptively).
> 
> Source: https://www.greenmedinfo.com/blog/hep-b-vaccine-damages-liver-it-supposed-protect


----------



## Ozzieshunni

That study hasn't been done on the human liver.



> In addition In vivo apoptotic effect of hepatitis B vaccine was observed in mouse liver.


----------



## Leopard

Ozzieshunni said:


> That study hasn't been done on the human liver.
> 
> 
> 
> In addition In vivo apoptotic effect of hepatitis B vaccine was observed in mouse liver.Click to expand...

What else do you think they test all human vaccines on before giving them to humans?


----------



## Quackquack99

MrsPOP said:


> I would understand people are trying to do their best for their children if it wasn't putting my own child at risk, just as they are putting their own children at risk.
> 
> God forbid any of your children contract a preventable illness. Seeing my innocent child so poorly from measles was horrendous. I wouldn't wish that on anybody. Luckily she didn't develop a serious complication but she could have had.

I completely agree.

I understand that parents do not vaccinate due to medical reasons, which in my opinion are valid.
Other than medical reasons, I honestly can't understand why people do not vaccinate. I undrerstand there are risks but science is not perfect and there are risks to every.
My friend had an adverse reaction to penicillin, should I never take penicillin because I could have a reaction? Vaccination are worth the risk and I think it should be mandatory unless there are medical reasons against it.


----------



## Ozzieshunni

Leopard said:


> Ozzieshunni said:
> 
> 
> That study hasn't been done on the human liver.
> 
> 
> 
> In addition In vivo apoptotic effect of hepatitis B vaccine was observed in mouse liver.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> What else do you think they test all human vaccines on before giving them to humans?Click to expand...

I still don't agree with believing a one off study. I never take a single study for truth. It said their MAY be a link. Obviously it needs more testing. Heck, parents took the word of one study that there MAY be a link between MMR and Autism and look where that got us.


----------



## Leopard

This isn't fully on the same lines but a bit more informative about the vaccine itself.



> Hepatitis B
> 
> The Dangers of Natural Infection
> The NHMRC strongly recommends that hepatitis B vaccination be given to people in groups such as male homosexuals, sexually promiscuous heterosexuals and Intra-venous drug users. For a new born infant to be considered high risk it must be A) born to a carrier mother or B) born to mothers who belong to communities with a HBV carrier rate over 2%. The national Australian carrier rate is similar to most developed countries and between 0.1 and 0.2%. As it is between 10 and 20 times lower than at risk estimates it is therefore safe to state that the average infant is in very little danger of contracting Hepatitis B at all.
> 
> This is evidently a view shared by the United Kingdom and their policy of declining universal infant hepatitis B vaccination as it &#8216;would only prevent a very small number of childhood infections&#8217;. The government has instead implemented a policy of universal antenatal screening, which tests all pregnant women for HBV. Such an option should therefore be considered an intelligent and informed choice by parents wishing to avoid unnecessary vaccinations in countries that mandate childhood HBV vaccination. Given the widespread acknowledgment of the low risk for the majority of children in developed countries, parents and doctors alike may question why such a policy has been implemented by so many governments. It is here instructive to read the following reasoning as stated by the Chairman of the American Academy of Paediatrics:
> 
> &#8220;1) Hepatitis B remains a public health concern and sometimes occurs outside of high risk groups;
> 2) High risk groups have not accepted vaccination or have been difficult to reach
> 3) The cost of vaccinating infants is less as lower doses are required
> 4) Children are accessible.&#8221;
> [1]
> 
> Whilst many parents may morally and philosophically object to the final point as a valid reason for universal childhood immunisation, the third point is also incorrect as suggested by the UK government and Bloom et al: &#8220;HBV Vaccine is most cost effective when a strategy of screening newborns is combined with routine administration to 10 year old children[2]&#8221;. This would perhaps explain why:
> 
> &#8220;Only 17% of family doctors and 32% of paediatricians believe that universal hepatitis B vaccination is warranted in their practice[3]&#8221;.
> 
> Finally, it is noteworthy to report some of the statistics on Hepatitis B when it has actually been contracted[4].Of those catching the disease, 50% show no symptoms at all, overcome the virus quickly and develop permanent immunity with no residual affects. Around 30% however will develop a flu like illness, but similarly overcome the illness and develop permanent immunity. As little as 5% become chronic carriers with about 1/4 of these 5% developing life threatening liver complications later in life. Approx 0.2% of these 5% die with the infection and the rest of these 5% remain symptom free with declining but continuous infectiveness. As with many infectious diseases it is important to consider the role of high risk and immune compromising behaviour that most often accompanies the 5% who are unable to recover from the infection.
> 
> HBV Vaccine Safety
> In addition to the above information a great deal of literature has been published regarding the safety of this often unnecessary vaccine. The US 1999 Congressional Hearings to investigate HBV Vaccine safety were held in order to investigate the reports that in America adverse reactions to Hepatitis B vaccine, including deaths, outnumbered cases of Hepatitis B in children by 14 to 1. This lead to the following statement being issued:
> "An intelligent and conscientious physician might well recommend AGAINST hepatitis B vaccine, especially in newborns, unless a baby is at unusual risk because of an infected mother or household contact or membership in a population in which disease is common.[5]"
> 
> 
> 
> What the above graph translated to over an eight year period between 1990 and 1998 according to the US governments own Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System was a total of 17 497 adverse reactions to Hepatitis B Vaccine with 5 983 resulted in hospitalization, disablement or death[6]. A similar experience in France centring around the increased risk of Multiple Scelrosis following HBV has resulted in the vaccine being banned and 15,000 French citizens filing a lawsuit against the French government accusing it of understating the vaccine&#8217;s risks and exaggerating the benefits for the average person. An article addressing this issue in the BMJ stated that:
> 
> &#8220;Studies in both France and Britain have shown that, in school aged children, the risk of demyelinating reactions in the central nervous system increases during the two months after vaccination
> [7].&#8221;
> 
> Hernan&#8217;s data put a firm estimate on the increased risk of MS however, finding it to be as high as three times that of a placebo control.[8] Such incidents are not isolated in the literature however, for Classen&#8217;s data also noted that:
> 
> &#8220;A 60% increase in diabetes incidence was reported in NZ after a major increase in childhood immunization rates took place between 1988-91&#8221;
> [9]
> This particular finding is further collaborated by the US CDC Drug Safety Manual which states &#8220;Hepatitis B immunization starting after 2 months is associated with a doubling of the risk of Insulin Dependent Diabetes&#8221;[10]. In addition to this, Linder et al have suggested that the increase in the number of cases of unexplained neonatal fever seems to be associated with the introduction of routine hepatitis B vaccination on the first day of life,[11] and Shepard has suggested a possible link between the vaccine and Chronic Fatigue Syndrome[12].
> 
> Protection Offered
> In a statement to the JAMA the spokesman for the vaccine manufacturer GlaxoSmithKline suggested &#8220;Immunity Probably lasts about five years, although that is not certain&#8221;[13]. This has not been supported by independent studies however, with Paediatric Infectious Diseases Journal publishing data that showed that very minimal protection was noted in groups of 5 years olds who had been vaccinated with most showing no protection, and none who were tested after 7 years having what was considered any protective levels at all[14]. The CDC&#8217;s own HBV study group offered an even lower estimate and determined that &#8220;antibody levels to HBV vaccine decline substantially within three years of vaccination, and that risk of infection increases as antibody levels decline&#8221;[15]. It must here be noted that peak incidence of the disease occurs between the ages of 20 and 24 in most countries, which makes the British Medical Journals data all the more disturbing:
> 
> &#8220;Teenagers Vaccinated in infancy are at an increased risk of hepatitis B infection in their late teens&#8221;
> [16]
> The specific problems of the HBV vaccine are also to be considered alongside the larger issue of vaccine induced auto-immune disease. For if the immunologic alterations induced by immunization lead to improved antibody production, &#8220;while suppressing TH1 cell responses, leading to reduced lympho-proliferation (white blood cell count)[17]", and an overall &#8220;redirection of the immune response[18]&#8221; then an increased risk of a broad range of chronic auto-immune diseases from diabetes and parkinson&#8217;s to asthma and arthritis cannot be ignored.
> 
> Conclusion
> Protection against Hepatitis B in most populations is unnecessary and Homeo-Prophylaxis is generally superfluous. The vaccine should be considered dangerous and of questionable efficacy, with HP offering a viable alternative for at risk individuals. The danger of Hepatitis in new borns is not to be underestimated however, with expert medical advice being sought promptly. A Nosode is available, with other remedies offering broader non-specific protection.
> 
> [1] Dr George Peter, Chairman: American Academy of Paediatrics, 1992 Address
> [2] Bloom BS et al (1993) Medicine & Public Issues Vol.118(4)
> [3] Freed GL et al. Pediatrics 1993 April;91(4):699-702. &#8220;Reactions of pediatricians to a new Centers for Disease Control recommendation for universal immunization of infants with hepatitis B vaccine&#8221;.
> [4] Statistics provided by Dr Peter Baratosy MB BS PhD See www.ias.org.nz/dunbar
> 
> [5]Statement of the Association of American Physicians & Surgeons to the Subcommittee on Criminal Justice, Drug Policy, and Human Resources of the Committee on Government Reform U.S. House of Representatives, 1999
> [6]
> Figures taken from www.vaers.hhs.gov
> [7]
> Brittish Medical Journal, 1998; 317: 1034.
> [8]
> Hernan et al, Neurology, 2004, 63:838-842
> [9]
> Classen JB 1996 New Zealand Medical Journal May 24:109
> [10] The Center for Disease Control,
> (Pharmacoepidemiology and Drug Safety Vol 6 Suppl. 2, S60; 1998)
> 
> [11]
> Linder N., et al, Unexplained fever in neonates may be associated with hepatitis B vaccine, Arch Dis Child Fetal Neonatal Ed, Nov1999; 81: F206-207
> 
> 
> [12] Shepard, C. British Medical Journal, Hepatitis B and Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, Letter to BMJ, sept 1996
> 
> 
> 
> [13] J Amer Med Ass Medical News 1/6/1984 (Spokesman for the Manufacturer)
> [14]
> Peterson et al, PJID, 2004; 23 (7); 605-655
> 
> [15]
> Dr S Handler et al CDC Multicentre HBV Vaccine Study Group
> 
> [16]
> Whittle et al, British Medical Journal, 14 September, 2002; 325-569
> [17]
> Journal of Infectious Diseases 1996; Vol 173, pg 1324-1325
> [18]
> "Modern Vaccinology", By Edward Kurstak, Pg 112, Pub. 1994.


----------



## tina3747

I remember the polio Vax was oral years ago with my first Son who's 12. You have to wear gloves for the first few days afterwards because it was a live vaccine, it used to be called polio poo!
DH mums cousins, a whole family of brothers and sisters were struck down with polio. All 5 have varying degrees of health problems such as paralysis in one leg , deafness and other things. Why someone wouldn't want to vaccinate thier children against these things is beyond me. We're very fortunate to be given these things on a plate whereas mums in the 3 rd world countries desperate for these vaccines rely on charity donations for just the cheapest of shots to keep thier kids alive and healthy. If you think better than doctors, consultants and millions of pounds of research done continuously on this topic ( ive seen in one thread that one mum thought her breast milk would give full immunity against polio measles ect?!) I pray my sons immunity keeps your child safe.


----------



## Vrinda

ONE MORE UPDATE:

Yes, the doctor seems just afraid and therefore the threats and calling on third party.
See they are trying to make laws strict here ( I spoke with a lawyer) and almost mandatory 
so the fear and threats to parents leave NO CHOICE almost for all. But those who research knows that law states its not mandatory. Doctors themselves are under pressure from other authorities.

So because of all this, our doctor just infringed patient-doctor-trust by calling on 3rd party regarding our vaccine decision.
Even though she would have abided by law totally if she didnt.
Its just fear in people to make decision, I see.
I am now not really very angry on our doctor, I see its not really her fault. But I am still upset.
She could have chose not to make it difficult for us to decide.


----------



## MrsPOP

Eve said:


> MrsPOP said:
> 
> 
> I would understand people are trying to do their best for their children if it wasn't putting my own child at risk, just as they are putting their own children at risk.
> 
> God forbid any of your children contract a preventable illness. Seeing my innocent child so poorly from measles was horrendous. I wouldn't wish that on anybody. Luckily she didn't develop a serious complication but she could have had.
> 
> Yes, God forbid *ANY* child contracts a preventable disease.Click to expand...


Yes, well unfortunately MY CHILD DID CONTRACT A PREVENTABLE DISEASE. A disease she could have DIED from. All because people did not vaccinate. I think I have a right to be angry about that and tbh I've been pretty restrained about it on here.

My child may be a risk to others, although even if she has the slightest cough I keep her indoors and most importantly away from my immunocompromised mum. Thats be right thing to do. It's a shame the parents with the measle-y kid didn't show me or my daughter the same courtesy by staying indoors too.

And FWIW Ive had the HepB vaccines (all health/medical professionals have to in the UK) and my liver is A-OK. :thumbup:


----------



## MrsPOP

pinklightbulb said:


> Please, please don't always think non-vaxing mums are not vaxing because THEY don't want to.

Did I say that? Nope. I know there are genuine medical reasons for not vaxxing but these are rare. I also remember you discussing your DHs aversion to vaxxing and IIRC his LO's ill health was never proven to be caused by the MMR.


----------



## Eve

I just don't have a lot of trust in doctors... with good reason.


----------



## tommyg

Ozzieshunni said:


> I remember getting polio in a liquid. They do give it in the USA and the UK.

In the UK. Not sure when they stopped giving it as a liquid or on the sugar lump, remember them. But they now give it as a jag, it's one of the first ones they get at 8 weeks. I think the same jag includes diptheria and something else too. I am also fairly sure it is included as a booster at 12 weeks. 

But if you check your red book it will confirm it. I don't have acess to mine at the moment.


----------



## pinklightbulb

MrsPOP said:


> pinklightbulb said:
> 
> 
> Please, please don't always think non-vaxing mums are not vaxing because THEY don't want to.
> 
> Did I say that? Nope. I know there are genuine medical reasons for not vaxxing but these are rare. I also remember you discussing your DHs aversion to vaxxing and IIRC his LO's ill health was never proven to be caused by the MMR.Click to expand...

It was never proven not to either.

But I'm not going to debate it, that's OH's personal feelings and I respect them enough to take them into consideration.

I know you didn't say that either about it not always being the mother's choice hun and didn't say you did-- I was just saying generally that every circumstance is different. OH thought he was protecting E from what he believed he couldn't protect his first boy from. I don't think he deserves to be lynched for trying to do what he feels is best but hey ho. We all make decisions which others view badly in life. My son will be done--on our terms, not the Government's.


----------



## Menelly

Ozzieshunni said:


> That study hasn't been done on the human liver.
> 
> 
> 
> In addition In vivo apoptotic effect of hepatitis B vaccine was observed in mouse liver.Click to expand...

Ok, but why? Why are we vaxing 2 hours old infants for an STD? I mean, test moms. See if they are carriers. If they are? Vaccinate. If not, don't you think it a bit more appropriate to vax when there's a chance they are actually havind sex or misusing needles?


----------



## Eternal

MrsPOP said:


> Eve said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MrsPOP said:
> 
> 
> I would understand people are trying to do their best for their children if it wasn't putting my own child at risk, just as they are putting their own children at risk.
> 
> God forbid any of your children contract a preventable illness. Seeing my innocent child so poorly from measles was horrendous. I wouldn't wish that on anybody. Luckily she didn't develop a serious complication but she could have had.
> 
> Yes, God forbid *ANY* child contracts a preventable disease.Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes, well unfortunately MY CHILD DID CONTRACT A PREVENTABLE DISEASE. A disease she could have DIED from. All because people did not vaccinate. I think I have a right to be angry about that and tbh I've been pretty restrained about it on here.
> 
> My child may be a risk to others, although even if she has the slightest cough I keep her indoors and most importantly away from my immunocompromised mum. Thats be right thing to do. It's a shame the parents with the measle-y kid didn't show me or my daughter the same courtesy by staying indoors too.
> 
> And FWIW Ive had the HepB vaccines (all health/medical professionals have to in the UK) and my liver is A-OK. :thumbup:Click to expand...

:hugs:

I feel angry too and my children have never contracted anything, my mum is immuno compromised too and on weekly oral chemo plus high dose steriods and its horrible thinking how easily someone could kill her.


----------



## Eve

So was my uncle who passed away from Cancer, both of Mark's grandparents had and died of cancer within 2 years of eachother. Man down the road we see regularly has been newly diagnosed with cancer. Sadly, it's everywhere and we should really question why..........
My grandparents are 84 and 90 yrs old and the flu can kill them. Does every single person get the flu shot? Does everyone who has the sniffles stay home? I think it's sad that so many people are judging moms who decide not to vaccinate (and I am NOT one of them). I understand there are conditions where you can't vaccinate and rely on herd immunity. I do, and I understand being upset. I still do not think it's fair to make it sound (even if you don't mean it) that EVERYONE who doesn't vaccinate is irresponsible. It isn't the case, and the decisions usually are not taken lightly.


----------



## Ozzieshunni

Menelly said:


> Ozzieshunni said:
> 
> 
> That study hasn't been done on the human liver.
> 
> 
> 
> In addition In vivo apoptotic effect of hepatitis B vaccine was observed in mouse liver.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Ok, but why? Why are we vaxing 2 hours old infants for an STD? I mean, test moms. See if they are carriers. If they are? Vaccinate. If not, don't you think it a bit more appropriate to vax when there's a chance they are actually havind sex or misusing needles?Click to expand...

I wasn't saying anything about vaccinating a child against an STD. I was just commenting on the validity of the study. I'm a bit touchy just now, but I don't see why people are reading so much into my posts.


----------



## MrsPOP

pinklightbulb said:


> MrsPOP said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> pinklightbulb said:
> 
> 
> Please, please don't always think non-vaxing mums are not vaxing because THEY don't want to.
> 
> Did I say that? Nope. I know there are genuine medical reasons for not vaxxing but these are rare. I also remember you discussing your DHs aversion to vaxxing and IIRC his LO's ill health was never proven to be caused by the MMR.Click to expand...
> 
> It was never proven not to either.
> 
> But I'm not going to debate it, that's OH's personal feelings and I respect them enough to take them into consideration.
> 
> I know you didn't say that either about it not always being the mother's choice hun and didn't say you did-- I was just saying generally that every circumstance is different. OH thought he was protecting E from what he believed he couldn't protect his first boy from. I don't think he deserves to be lynched for trying to do what he feels is best but hey ho. We all make decisions which others view badly in life. My son will be done--on our terms, not the Government's.Click to expand...

No-one is lynching your OH.



Eve said:


> So was my uncle who passed away from Cancer, both of Mark's grandparents had and died of cancer within 2 years of eachother. Man down the road we see regularly has been newly diagnosed with cancer. Sadly, it's everywhere and we should really question why..........
> My grandparents are 84 and 90 yrs old and the flu can kill them. Does every single person get the flu shot? Does everyone who has the sniffles stay home? I think it's sad that so many people are judging moms who decide not to vaccinate (and I am NOT one of them). I understand there are conditions where you can't vaccinate and rely on herd immunity. I do, and I understand being upset. I still do not think it's fair to make it sound (even if you don't mean it) that EVERYONE who doesn't vaccinate is irresponsible. It isn't the case, and the decisions usually are not taken lightly.

Viruses can cause cancer you know. 

I'm not making it sound like I think everyone who doesn't vaccinate is irresponsible... I'm SAYING it directly.

Those who do not vaccinate without a valid proven medical reason are highly irresponsible.

You may think I am unfair because I feel that way but you weren't the one worrying and going on out of hour Doctor visits at 1am because your daughters temp wouldn't come down from 39 degrees despite both paracetamol and ibuprofen. You weren't the one panicking about your mother contracting a disease that could kill her and feeling responsible because you exposed your mum to an illness unknowingly carried by your daughter who could have not caught it if people weren't so utterly selfish as to keep their child indoors. You weren't the one stuck in quarantine, doing my own duty by keeping my daughter away from others.

I think in this case, I have a right to Judge as my daughter was affected by others choices. I am angry and have been through a rough time, I think most people would understand and sympathise with me if I'm not feeling very fair to people who believe dodgy studies and idiots like Wakefield. 






Eve said:


> I just don't have a lot of trust in doctors... with good reason.

Not all doctors are bad. I'm actually a very good Doctor if I say so myself. :haha: it's a good thing I am one because I recognised my daughters rash immediately. If not I could have taken my daughter with me to mums radiotherapy appointment the next day and exposed a lot of immunocompromised cancer patients to a potentially deadly virus.

Please don't tar all Doctors with the same brush, the majority of them want to do the best for their patients. I know that's all I care about anyway.


----------



## Leopard

If there is one vaccination we will git it will be Hib. Or the meningitis vaccination. I think it is definitely a vaccination to think about.


----------



## milf2be

Menelly said:


> Ozzieshunni said:
> 
> 
> That study hasn't been done on the human liver.
> 
> 
> 
> In addition In vivo apoptotic effect of hepatitis B vaccine was observed in mouse liver.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Ok, but why? Why are we vaxing 2 hours old infants for an STD? I mean, test moms. See if they are carriers. If they are? Vaccinate. If not, don't you think it a bit more appropriate to vax when there's a chance they are actually havind sex or misusing needles?Click to expand...

just wanted to say that hepatitis is not just an STD, its transferred by bodily fluids. i had to have it when i started my course, i doubt it was in case i had sex with the patient :haha:


----------



## Eve

Leopard said:


> If there is one vaccination we will git it will be Hib. Or the meningitis vaccination. I think it is definitely a vaccination to think about.

Meningitis one is very important to me, for many reasons, even more so as of the past few days :cry:


----------



## ihearttc

My little boy is 16 months and hasn't had his MMR yet...not because I didn't want him to have it but because every time I book the appointment he's ill with ear infections (he's had 5 in 3 months) and they obviously can't do it. He's also got something quite rare wrong with his heart and we are waiting to see the cardiologist so for the meantime at least he won't be having it just yet.

Also just in case anyone isn't aware...Measles isn't the only dangerous childhood illness.
DS1 got chicken pox when he was 3 and had it relatively mildly...lots of spots but wasn't especially ill with it and then 3 weeks later he collapsed at nursery and we were blue lighted to hospital. They had no idea what was wrong until I was asked if he'd been ill recently and said yes he'd had chicken pox 3 weeks ago. Which resulted in lots more doctors rushing in and him having tests for encephalitis...a serious swelling of the brain as a result of the chicken pox virus. Luckily thank goodness the tests were fine and it turned out he had a childhood migraine but Id never ever imagined that chicken pox could be so dangerous and it makes me angry when people(not on here!) say that they want to get it over and done with and deliberately expose their children to it.


----------



## tommyg

Eve said:


> So was my uncle who passed away from Cancer, both of Mark's grandparents had and died of cancer within 2 years of eachother. Man down the road we see regularly has been newly diagnosed with cancer. Sadly, it's everywhere and we should really question why..........
> My grandparents are 84 and 90 yrs old and the flu can kill them. Does every single person get the flu shot? Does everyone who has the sniffles stay home? I think it's sad that so many people are judging moms who decide not to vaccinate (and I am NOT one of them). I understand there are conditions where you can't vaccinate and rely on herd immunity. I do, and I understand being upset. I still do not think it's fair to make it sound (even if you don't mean it) that EVERYONE who doesn't vaccinate is irresponsible. It isn't the case, and the decisions usually are not taken lightly.

The diffrence with the flu jab is that it would be impossible for them to imunise everybody agains flu every year as it mutates every year. People who have the sniffles have a common cold which is nothing like flu. If you have flu finding the energy to get off the couch is a major event, and that was before pumonia kicked in. 

I'm not sure if you are trying to say vaccines cause cancer or not but cancer has been around for many hundreds of years. Many people wouldn't have known it was cancer that killed them and if they did their wouldn't have been much chance of treatment or diagnosis. People were also very frightened of it so they simply avoided talking about it. A bit like people being frightened of HIV so they avoid telling people they have it for frear of exclusion from socity.

They trouble with the other vaccines if everybody relies on everybody else doing it (herd immunity) so nobody actually does it and then everybody becomes suseptable to getting it. Anybody could then get the illness and somebody will die from it.


----------



## Leopard

Eve said:


> Leopard said:
> 
> 
> If there is one vaccination we will git it will be Hib. Or the meningitis vaccination. I think it is definitely a vaccination to think about.
> 
> Meningitis one is very important to me, for many reasons, even more so as of the past few days :cry:Click to expand...

I know exactly what you mean sweety. I'm crying my eyes out here :hugs: :cry:


----------



## feedindy

I am very grateful that my daughter is vaccinated to protect her from diseases. I am also happy she is vaccinated so she won't likely catch any diseases from those who don't vaccinate and catch something.

It's ironic/ hypocritical that those who don't vaccinate just because they believe vaccinating is bad are relying on others to get those "horrible" vaccines so we get a herd immunity.

Oh and I don't blame parents for not vaccinating for valid medical reasons. But there are other reasons people don't vaccinate that are ridiculous to me. "Vaccines have so many ingredients" is one that really bothers me. So what? A box of cereal has a lot of ingredients too. There are so many ridiculous reasons.


----------



## roomaloo

i dont think people who dont vaccinate rely on herd immunity necessarily. i think the whole point is they keep their child as healthy as poss so that when they do catch whatever, it is hopefully problem free, then the child has natural immunity for life.


----------



## sequeena

My lo has had all his jabs so far and will continue to have them.

The meningitis jab is very important to us too. My oh contracted bacterial meningitis on his first birthday. He thankfully pulled through but is has left him with lifelong memory problems and a stutter that not even speech therapy could correct.

My lo was very ill at 2 weeks old. We thought he'd caught chicken pox and because I've never had it he had to have an injection with the antibodies. Then they thought it was meningitis. We were terrified. It turned out he'd caught a bacterial infection which turned into a blood infection.

I will ALWAYS vaccinate my child I cannot see him in so much pain again


----------



## tommyg

roomaloo said:


> i dont think people who dont vaccinate rely on herd immunity necessarily. i think the whole point is they keep their child as healthy as poss so that when they do catch whatever, it is hopefully problem free, then the child has natural immunity for life.

It takes a bit more that being healthy to deal with measles etc. Does that also mean that if they're LO does catch one of those illnesses that they are going to avoid drugs to treat because of the ingredients?

Lets face it certain illnesses scare us menigitus for example why does it scare us more than measles or mumps? 
Why is menigitus scarey when the others aren't mainly because we nearly all know somebody or of somebody who's died from it. Measles and mumps aren't so scary because most of our generation won't know anybody who's died from it.


----------



## roomaloo

No it doesn't, if you are a healthy child (like i was) and caught measles, mumps and chicken pox (like i did) then the likelihood is you will be ok. These are not 'killer' diseases as a whole, but yes some unfortunate children will die from complications of the disease. Usually due to underlying health issues. Which is why even those who are against vaccines are recommended to have their children vaccinated if they do have other health issues.


----------



## feedindy

I just don't understand why people are afraid of giving children vaccines. Other things are worse for our bodies. Sunburn will do more damage to our bodies than vaccines. Some foods we all eat are worse for our bodies, like drinking soda every day. Think about things like childhood obesity, this is way more dangerous than a vaccine. 


I agree with the pp, if you are against vaccinating due to ingredients, does this mean you refuse most medications if you catch a disease because you believe the immune system can just handle it?

Even if someone says that they won't vaccinate because the chance of their child getting that disease is very low, the chances are low because of vaccinating the population, so you are relying on herd immunuty in the end.


----------



## Vrinda

Sun was already there since ages and humans and other animals and species were living just fine with it, in fact we get also vitamin D from sun and many other health benefits of sitting out in a sunny day :) I just mentioned in some post recently about how the sunscreens are overmarketed at the cost of people's health, because ingredients in itself are carcinogenic.

And yes childhood obesity is a major concern- thankfully I dont worry about it as such I do not eat meat or go to Mcds, etc and always watch out and READ LABELS before buying anything edible :) I am able to read so I do :)

So anyway regarding not vaccinating, I dont think people who do not vaccinate at all, rely totally on herd immunity. And talking about vaccine ingredients, my friend, there's had been some really nasty things in it such as thimeresol,mercury,aluminium and so on.....Why were some vaccines that used to be given been called off now and have newer ones, then?

Again its a parent's choice


----------



## MrsPOP

Vrinda said:


> *Sun was already there since ages and humans and other animals and species were living just fine with it, in fact we get also vitamin D from sun and many other health benefits of sitting out in a sunny day  I just mentioned in some post recently about how the sunscreens are overmarketed at the cost of people's health, because ingredients in itself are carcinogenic.*
> 
> And yes childhood obesity is a major concern- thankfully I dont worry about it as such I do not eat meat or go to Mcds, etc and always watch out and READ LABELS before buying anything edible :) I am able to read so I do :)
> 
> So anyway regarding not vaccinating, I dont think people who do not vaccinate at all, rely totally on herd immunity. And talking about vaccine ingredients, my friend, there's had been some really nasty things in it such as thimeresol,mercury,aluminium and so on.....Why were some vaccines that used to be given been called off now and have newer ones, then?
> 
> Again its a parent's choice

My mum is dying of malignant melanoma which, in laymans terms, is SKIN CANCER.

Please, anybody reading this, do not think its ok not to use sunscreen. Watching my mum slowly dying from this Godawful disease has been torture.


----------



## whit.

:hugs:


----------



## Vrinda

dear POP, I am sorry to hear about this so hugs!

I think everyone has a right to opinion and everybody is different.
And there are a number of factors that lead to diseases
There are way too many carcinogens in our environment today which makes people susceptible to diseases.
Smoke, tobacco,pollution for example is some of the many reasons , I would say so I would not totally blame the sun!
Thing is this-which I am digging from a recent post I made on sunscreens-
though off topic, but since it popped up then here it goes -

I do not use sunscreens because of the harmful chemicals as somethings in it itself are carcinogenic, so it just to me seems another money making industry 
I also think that they are just over-marketed and their necessity is overemphasized.

I read that there is some evidence, largely arising from correlational studies and in vitro experiments, that particular sunscreen ingredients (such as oxybenzone, benzophenone, octocrylene, or octyl methoxycinnamate) may be paradoxically linked to increased risks of malignant melanoma. It has also been linked to vitamin D deficiency. 

And the ingredients get absorbed in the skin therefore I am not saying do not use anything to protect your skin , but watch out for the ingredients, it wont hurt anyone


I empasize on importance on HEALTHY and NUTRITIONAL FOOD (lots of berries, veges, fruits,organic food, no processed junk)

It not only protect from cancer but also from radiations etc...Antioxidants help the body deal with many such problems.

Body also needs vitamin D which we get from sunlight.

I would just otherwise avoid heavy sunny hours
But sunscreens I best avoid. Our wise ancestors did not take them ages and ages ago no such concept and now they market it and say sunlight is bad ? Nonsense


Other than that organic coconut oil is the best for my skin and also my LOs skin

So everyone makes a choice what he or she thinks is best for them-
FYI I am dark skinned, so maybe that is once of the factor that made me choose this?


----------



## whit.

:dohh:


----------



## Spunky

:hugs: MrsPop My grandpa and his dad died from skin cancer. I wear like SPF 50+ when I go out, and James will too, we are very fair haired and skinned and have seen how bad things can get.


----------



## Ozzieshunni

I couldn't imagine not putting sunscreen on Alex! That would just be so stupid!


----------



## Spunky

Our wise ancestors didn't have internet.... Maybe we shouldn't use that then. :dohh:


----------



## whit.

Sunscreen also protects from sunburn. That shit hurts.


----------



## MizzDeeDee

Spunky said:


> :hugs: MrsPop My grandpa and his dad died from skin cancer. I wear like SPF 50+ when I go out, and James will too, we are very fair haired and skinned and have seen how bad things can get.

My grandfather ALSO died from skin cancer a year after I was born. 


As for Mrs. POP's opinion.. I would say it's more medical advice that you use sunscreen as opposed to an opinion, seeing as she's a Doctor and all.


----------



## Ozzieshunni

whit. said:


> Sunscreen also protects from sunburn. That shit hurts.

Can you imagine a sunburn on a baby :wacko: 

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't darker skinned people at higher risk for skin cancer because of too much melanine or however it's spelled? Maybe MrsPop can clarify?


----------



## whit.

No, I can not imagine my sweet baby having a sun burn.

I guess when I go to Florida in July I better just forget the sun screen and pack lots of berries and healthy food. :thumbup:


----------



## sapphire1

hg mnfghbjmb iujgfygbt ggg


----------



## MizzDeeDee

sapphire1 said:


> hg mnfghbjmb iujgfygbt ggg

I agree 100%. :thumbup:


----------



## sapphire1

sapphire1 said:


> hg mnfghbjmb iujgfygbt ggg

Um, sorry about that. Holly got hold of the laptop.

To be fair though, it makes more sense than some of the craziness on this thread :haha:


----------



## Ozzieshunni

whit. said:


> No, I can not imagine my sweet baby having a sun burn.
> 
> I guess when I go to Florida in July I better just forget the sun screen and pack lots of berries and healthy food. :thumbup:

I'll do the same when I'm on the beach in California :dohh:


----------



## Ozzieshunni

sapphire1 said:


> sapphire1 said:
> 
> 
> hg mnfghbjmb iujgfygbt ggg
> 
> Um, sorry about that. Holly got hold of the laptop.
> 
> To be fair though, it makes more sense than some of the craziness on this thread :haha:Click to expand...

:rofl: Alex likes to help me type too!


----------



## Lil_Pixie

I don't use sunscreen on myself - I sit in the shade for the most part and honestly I never burn and don't think day to day of skin damage (yes, I know I'm silly. But I'm a grown up and I can be) I would never ever ever take my baby and his yummy delicate skin out in the sun without plenty of factor 50! 

As for vaccinations, liverpool isn't far away and I'm nervous about taking my son out to town now in case he comes into contact with measles. Vaccinating not only protects your child, but also the most vulnerable among us. The very young and those who are unable to have the vaccinations for health reasons. 

Why do some people call them jags? X


----------



## feedindy

This is getting a little ridiculous. Maybe instead of sunscreen, I should rub mud all over myself as sun protection, because it's natural.


----------



## tommyg

Vrinda said:


> *I would just otherwise avoid heavy sunny hours
> But sunscreens I best avoid. Our wise ancestors did not take them ages and ages ago no such concept and now they market it and say sunlight is bad ?* Nonsense
> 
> 
> Other than that organic coconut oil is the best for my skin and also my LOs skin
> 
> So everyone makes a choice what he or she thinks is best for them-
> FYI I am dark skinned, so maybe that is once of the factor that made me choose this?

Couple of things, the ozone layer isn't as good as it used to be due to the industrialised world, and nobody is saying sunlight is bad but everybody recognises that the suns rays can cause harm. Have you never burnt your skin have you never felt it sting? I've managed to burn myself in sunny Scotland.

With or without a undamaged ozone layer your and my ansestors probably did get skin cancer but they just didn't know what it was.

But there again many of them wouldn't have lived that long as some of the the other horrible dieases that we now vaccinate for would probably killed them first. 

Put your hand up if you believe you'd be dead without modern vaccines or medication = that includes antebiotics - me I've got both hands up, and should probably put my feet up too


----------



## MizzDeeDee

feedindy said:


> This is getting a little ridiculous. Maybe instead of sunscreen, I should rub mud all over myself as sun protection, because it's natural.

:rofl:


----------



## Leopard

I don't use sunscreen. Only used to when mum would have to hold my down and attack me with it. I'm also rather fond of my freckles now. However no matter how much spf 30+ mum used to maul me with, I'd still get sunburnt within 2hrs . Without sunscreen it takes me 4hrs to get sunburnt; weird but it's the way it is. I've got some pretty knarly looking freckles on my shoulders, and white spots, and sun spots, but I don't care. I need a hardened back for living in the bush; and Florida aint got nothing on my part of the world.


----------



## feedindy

tommyg said:


> Vrinda said:
> 
> 
> *I would just otherwise avoid heavy sunny hours
> But sunscreens I best avoid. Our wise ancestors did not take them ages and ages ago no such concept and now they market it and say sunlight is bad ?* Nonsense
> 
> 
> Other than that organic coconut oil is the best for my skin and also my LOs skin
> 
> So everyone makes a choice what he or she thinks is best for them-
> FYI I am dark skinned, so maybe that is once of the factor that made me choose this?
> 
> Couple of things, the ozone layer isn't as good as it used to be due to the industrialised world, and nobody is saying sunlight is bad but everybody recognises that the suns rays can cause harm. Have you never burnt your skin have you never felt it sting? I've managed to burn myself in sunny Scotland.
> 
> With or without a undamaged ozone layer your and my ansestors probably did get skin cancer but they just didn't know what it was.
> 
> But there again many of them wouldn't have lived that long as some of the the other horrible dieases that we now vaccinate for would probably killed them first.
> 
> Put your hand up if you believe you'd be dead without modern vaccines or medication = that includes antebiotics - me I've got both hands up, and should probably put my feet up tooClick to expand...

I agree.

I bet out ancient ancestors either died from diseases, fighting/war, or being eaten by predators before they had a chance to get skin cancer.


----------



## MrsPOP

As far as I'm aware the people most 'at risk' of skin cancer are those with Type 1 skins so: very fair or red hair, pale skinned, burns does not tan etc.

Bloody skin cancer, if I could ban sunbeds I would!


----------



## Lil_Pixie

An autoimmune disease would have killed me off at 6
Salmonella would have had my sister at 2
And behcets syndrome would have seen to my mum

I'd be waving now if I wasn't feeding LO with one hand and bnbing with the other lol


----------



## feedindy

Vrinda said:


> \Why were some vaccines that used to be given been called off now and have newer ones, then?


this is because like everything else in the world, technology and medicine advance, and improvements are always in process.


----------



## MizzDeeDee

Lil_Pixie said:


> An autoimmune disease would have killed me off at 6
> Salmonella would have had my sister at 2
> And behcets syndrome would have seen to my mum
> 
> I'd be waving now if I wasn't feeding LO with one hand and bnbing with the other lol

Totally off topic- I have Behcets! Wow. Small world.


----------



## Ozzieshunni

I'm all for parenting your own way, but this is just getting a little mental! I'm probably going to get dinged for cross posting, but isn't the OP the same one that wouldn't take her baby in a car or to a store?


----------



## MrsPOP

Without modern medicine I wouldn't have a job :haha:

Actually without feminism I wouldn't have a job!!!! And I wouldn't be pissing my FIL off either for having a job and a voice! :thumbup:


----------



## Lil_Pixie

MizzDeeDee said:


> Lil_Pixie said:
> 
> 
> An autoimmune disease would have killed me off at 6
> Salmonella would have had my sister at 2
> And behcets syndrome would have seen to my mum
> 
> I'd be waving now if I wasn't feeding LO with one hand and bnbing with the other lol
> 
> Totally off topic- I have Behcets! Wow. Small world.Click to expand...

Wow!! Very bloody small, I've never known anyone else with it. Lol her gp had to ask her to come back in a week so she could look it up!


----------



## MizzDeeDee

Ozzieshunni said:


> I'm all for parenting your own way, but this is just getting a little mental! I'm probably going to get dinged for cross posting, but isn't the OP the same one that wouldn't take her baby in a car or to a store?

Ding! I am very a shamed of you Ozzie.


But seriously, why wouldn't you take your baby in a car or store? Do you just hoof it to the store and then set your baby on a trashcan or have a homeless person hold them while you're inside? I'm confused by this.


----------



## Ozzieshunni

MizzDeeDee said:


> Ozzieshunni said:
> 
> 
> I'm all for parenting your own way, but this is just getting a little mental! I'm probably going to get dinged for cross posting, but isn't the OP the same one that wouldn't take her baby in a car or to a store?
> 
> Ding! I am very a shamed of you Ozzie.
> 
> 
> But seriously, why wouldn't you take your baby in a car or store? Do you just hoof it to the store and then set your baby on a trashcan or have a homeless person hold them while you're inside? I'm confused by this.Click to expand...

I am ashamed of me too :blush: 

Maybe I need to report myself.


----------



## MizzDeeDee

Lil_Pixie said:


> MizzDeeDee said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lil_Pixie said:
> 
> 
> An autoimmune disease would have killed me off at 6
> Salmonella would have had my sister at 2
> And behcets syndrome would have seen to my mum
> 
> I'd be waving now if I wasn't feeding LO with one hand and bnbing with the other lol
> 
> Totally off topic- I have Behcets! Wow. Small world.Click to expand...
> 
> Wow!! Very bloody small, I've never known anyone else with it. Lol her gp had to ask her to come back in a week so she could look it up!Click to expand...

When I was firsted diagnosed my GP had to look it up. He had big medical books he was reading up on. It's pretty rare.

It IS a small world.


----------



## Vrinda

Ozzieshunni said:


> I'm all for parenting your own way, but this is just getting a little mental! I'm probably going to get dinged for cross posting, but isn't the OP the same one that wouldn't take her baby in a car or to a store?

Come on Ozzie, my LO has never been in a car yet, so what?

What is so funny, hilarious, strange about it?

I have used public transport for myself. And only when absolutely necessary I would take my baby in public transport etc.
I cannot understand my small comment in last thread which is now closed so I couldnt reply to people's astonishment at my comment.

I was in a car accident during my pregnancy, fortunately, we were all safe and therefore I avoid the road travel especially in a car.What is so freaky strange about it???? Plus I have car sickness - I puke everytime almost when i travel by car, I just do not like the closed atmosphere in the car and the air in it.

My baby is only few months old, so anyway upto this age it was not really needed for us to go far which would require us to go in a car, etc.


----------



## Ozzieshunni

It's just some of your beliefs are really out there. I'm just confused as to where you are getting all your information. It honestly seems a bit conspiracy theory to me.


----------



## Ozzieshunni

By the way, I take the bus too and Alex has been in a car. I've been in three car accidents as well.


----------



## whit.

Leopard said:


> I don't use sunscreen. Only used to when mum would have to hold my down and attack me with it. I'm also rather fond of my freckles now. However no matter how much spf 30+ mum used to maul me with, I'd still get sunburnt within 2hrs . Without sunscreen it takes me 4hrs to get sunburnt; weird but it's the way it is. I've got some pretty knarly looking freckles on my shoulders, and white spots, and sun spots, but I don't care. I need a hardened back for living in the bush; and Florida aint got nothing on my part of the world.

The sun and it's rays aren't something I'm going to mess around with - especially when it comes to my LO's delicate and perfect skin. She will be lathered very often in the highest spf I can find.


----------



## Vrinda

Ozzieshunni said:


> By the way, I take the bus too and Alex has been in a car. I've been in three car accidents as well.

Ozzie, my LO is younger than yours. At the moment we did not require to travel far, in a car. So we use public transport.

As a first time mom and my LO was very small when I wrote the comment about store.

I didnt take my LO to store yet ( most of the shopping my OH does or I do on weekend when he is at home)

And yes we go out often for walks to a park nearby etc

I just did not see a point or big deal or conspiracy as you put it about it.

I guess this reply is enough for this thread on the topic :thumbup:

And since you were also in accident, you know how it feels, atleast for the first few months.
I was pregnant then, first time

And I am not a big fan of cars, never been.


----------



## Ozzieshunni

My LO was your LO's age once. He was in a car two days after birth to come home.


----------



## Leopard

whit. said:


> Leopard said:
> 
> 
> I don't use sunscreen. Only used to when mum would have to hold my down and attack me with it. I'm also rather fond of my freckles now. However no matter how much spf 30+ mum used to maul me with, I'd still get sunburnt within 2hrs . Without sunscreen it takes me 4hrs to get sunburnt; weird but it's the way it is. I've got some pretty knarly looking freckles on my shoulders, and white spots, and sun spots, but I don't care. I need a hardened back for living in the bush; and Florida aint got nothing on my part of the world.
> 
> The sun and it's rays aren't something I'm going to mess around with - especially when it comes to my LO's delicate and perfect skin. She will be lathered very often in the highest spf I can find.Click to expand...

Oh once LO is 6 months + she will be sunscreened, until then we just keep her out of the sun. I just meant I'm not worried about me. I get skin screened every 6-12 months to check for melanoma but have yet to have any crop up thankfully. Yeah, she will definitely by sunscreened up, and just to keep things fun I'll buy her coloured zinc cream when she is older. :haha:


----------



## Vrinda

Ozzieshunni said:


> My LO was your LO's age once. He was in a car two days after birth to come home.

We came back in a ambulance ( technically not a car) and since then we havent been anywhere in car yet ( just public transport for now) 

(On a other note Id have love a home birth) Anyway so I also gave birth in hospital like you but close to natural birth ( I had to fight with doctors, on so many issues- they tried to intervene on but I resisted finally had a birth without any pain medication etc...I was keen on breastfeeding, doctors were trying to put LO on bottle,etc etc... but in the end I could sucessfully breastfeed and upto now its great)

Ok, so you can say that its a big car to continue this pointless topic, but again its public transport which I use at the moment.

And that thread where I posted about is closed. And my answer there was related to that topic. Some mums were attacking other mum who was asking some opinion on leavning baby alone in car etc...And people were attacking her so I just put my point, I rather not have baby in car in the first place -some body was writing about dangers of leaving LO in car etc.....

I think this is it...Why I have to give explaination to each and everything I post , if someone does not agree, I am fine with that. I am not in herd of sheep and I do not nod my head just because everyone else does


----------



## Vrinda

feedindy said:


> tommyg said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vrinda said:
> 
> 
> *I would just otherwise avoid heavy sunny hours
> But sunscreens I best avoid. Our wise ancestors did not take them ages and ages ago no such concept and now they market it and say sunlight is bad ?* Nonsense
> 
> 
> Other than that organic coconut oil is the best for my skin and also my LOs skin
> 
> So everyone makes a choice what he or she thinks is best for them-
> FYI I am dark skinned, so maybe that is once of the factor that made me choose this?
> 
> Couple of things, the ozone layer isn't as good as it used to be due to the industrialised world, and nobody is saying sunlight is bad but everybody recognises that the suns rays can cause harm. Have you never burnt your skin have you never felt it sting? I've managed to burn myself in sunny Scotland.
> 
> With or without a undamaged ozone layer your and my ansestors probably did get skin cancer but they just didn't know what it was.
> 
> But there again many of them wouldn't have lived that long as some of the the other horrible dieases that we now vaccinate for would probably killed them first.
> 
> Put your hand up if you believe you'd be dead without modern vaccines or medication = that includes antebiotics - me I've got both hands up, and should probably put my feet up tooClick to expand...
> 
> I agree.
> 
> I bet out ancient ancestors either died from diseases, fighting/war, or being eaten by predators before they had a chance to get skin cancer.Click to expand...


And what about now? I am not against medicine, but I am also not against nature's cure
I havent burnt in sun so far. I have been often in the sunniest of the sunny days.But yes, I do not sit in sun for many hours on hot day. Prefer shade of a tree etc


----------



## Eve

feedindy said:


> I just don't understand why people are afraid of giving children vaccines. Other things are worse for our bodies. Sunburn will do more damage to our bodies than vaccines. Some foods we all eat are worse for our bodies, like drinking soda every day. Think about things like childhood obesity, this is way more dangerous than a vaccine.
> 
> 
> I agree with the pp, if you are against vaccinating due to ingredients, does this mean you refuse most medications if you catch a disease because you believe the immune system can just handle it?
> 
> Even if someone says that they won't vaccinate because the chance of their child getting that disease is very low, the chances are low because of vaccinating the population, so you are relying on herd immunuty in the end.

From my experience, most people I know who do not vaccinate have---

Breastfed (which is VERY important)
Eat organic foods
Use their own homemade things like clothes soap etc....
Use 100% cotton material for most clothing
Eat little/no red meat and what is eaten is organic
etc........

Using large sunhats and light but covering clothing is also very good at protecting from sunburn. I've used it on my two year old only while swimming and even then it was minimal. SPF clothing can be purchased for swimming and other activities involving water.

Most people I know who are against vaccines do not eat junk, do not drink pop or have it in their homes, do not allow all the refined sugars, do their own cooking/baking, use cloth to protect from chemicals in disposable diapers & more. Most I know who are against vaccines for their own children do respect others and if their child is ill, they are kept home. Most I know who are against vaccines want optimal health for their children and keep their little bodies free of as many toxins and chemicals as possible... 



Ozzie.... I think bringing up whatever from another thread is childish and I would have hoped it wouldn't resort to such as we are all grown women here. What valid mature point are you trying to make with the car comment?


----------



## Ozzieshunni

I've already reported myself. So, no worries there. :thumbup:


----------



## DLA

Wtf happen to this thread??

I believe the sunscreen thing came from a thread I posted a few days ago because I was getting a little nervous reading about the toxins and carcingens found in many sunscreens. Luckily, with some research and awesome recommendations, I found some products that were free of chemicals and other harmful things and had low ratings for toxcity and risk on ewg.org. No sunscreen at all is not an option as I am extremely fair, so is my son and my mom has had skin cancer :( So I'm not messing around with that! But I was grateful for all the feedback I got & was able to find another option that I feel comfortable with :flower:


----------



## Vrinda

Ozzieshunni said:


> I've already reported myself. So, no worries there. :thumbup:

nice sense of humor :)


----------



## Ozzieshunni

Vrinda said:


> Ozzieshunni said:
> 
> 
> I've already reported myself. So, no worries there. :thumbup:
> 
> nice sense of humor :)Click to expand...

No, I'm serious. I have reported myself.


----------



## MrsPOP

Eve said:


> feedindy said:
> 
> 
> I just don't understand why people are afraid of giving children vaccines. Other things are worse for our bodies. Sunburn will do more damage to our bodies than vaccines. Some foods we all eat are worse for our bodies, like drinking soda every day. Think about things like childhood obesity, this is way more dangerous than a vaccine.
> 
> 
> I agree with the pp, if you are against vaccinating due to ingredients, does this mean you refuse most medications if you catch a disease because you believe the immune system can just handle it?
> 
> Even if someone says that they won't vaccinate because the chance of their child getting that disease is very low, the chances are low because of vaccinating the population, so you are relying on herd immunuty in the end.
> 
> From my experience, most people I know who do not vaccinate have---
> 
> Breastfed (which is VERY important)
> Eat organic foods
> Use their own homemade things like clothes soap etc....
> Use 100% cotton material for most clothing
> Eat little/no red meat and what is eaten is organic
> etc........
> 
> Using large sunhats and light but covering clothing is also very good at protecting from sunburn. I've used it on my two year old only while swimming and even then it was minimal. SPF clothing can be purchased for swimming and other activities involving water.
> 
> Most people I know who are against vaccines do not eat junk, do not drink pop or have it in their homes, do not allow all the refined sugars, do their own cooking/baking, use cloth to protect from chemicals in disposable diapers & more. Most I know who are against vaccines for their own children do respect others and if their child is ill, they are kept home. Most I know who are against vaccines *want optimal health for their children *and keep their little bodies free of as many toxins and chemicals as possible...
> 
> 
> 
> Ozzie.... I think bringing up whatever from another thread is childish and I would have hoped it wouldn't resort to such as we are all grown women here. What valid mature point are you trying to make with the car comment?Click to expand...

Funnily enough...so do parents who vaccinate!!!! :dohh:


----------



## Eve

I am pretty sure I would have died along side my son without modern medicine. Then again, it was a doctor who played a big role in my son's death and my critical condition, massive blood loss and severe PTSD.


I am not knocking it at all. I just think parents who do research and make informed choices not to vaccinate their child for something shouldn't be put down...


----------



## Eve

MrsPOP said:


> Eve said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> feedindy said:
> 
> 
> I just don't understand why people are afraid of giving children vaccines. Other things are worse for our bodies. Sunburn will do more damage to our bodies than vaccines. Some foods we all eat are worse for our bodies, like drinking soda every day. Think about things like childhood obesity, this is way more dangerous than a vaccine.
> 
> 
> I agree with the pp, if you are against vaccinating due to ingredients, does this mean you refuse most medications if you catch a disease because you believe the immune system can just handle it?
> 
> Even if someone says that they won't vaccinate because the chance of their child getting that disease is very low, the chances are low because of vaccinating the population, so you are relying on herd immunuty in the end.
> 
> From my experience, most people I know who do not vaccinate have---
> 
> Breastfed (which is VERY important)
> Eat organic foods
> Use their own homemade things like clothes soap etc....
> Use 100% cotton material for most clothing
> Eat little/no red meat and what is eaten is organic
> etc........
> 
> Using large sunhats and light but covering clothing is also very good at protecting from sunburn. I've used it on my two year old only while swimming and even then it was minimal. SPF clothing can be purchased for swimming and other activities involving water.
> 
> Most people I know who are against vaccines do not eat junk, do not drink pop or have it in their homes, do not allow all the refined sugars, do their own cooking/baking, use cloth to protect from chemicals in disposable diapers & more. Most I know who are against vaccines for their own children do respect others and if their child is ill, they are kept home. Most I know who are against vaccines *want optimal health for their children *and keep their little bodies free of as many toxins and chemicals as possible...
> 
> 
> 
> Ozzie.... I think bringing up whatever from another thread is childish and I would have hoped it wouldn't resort to such as we are all grown women here. What valid mature point are you trying to make with the car comment?Click to expand...
> 
> Funnily enough...so do parents who vaccinate!!!! :dohh:Click to expand...

Then there is no reason to argue and be so judgmental over it is there?


----------



## MrsPOP

Eve said:


> MrsPOP said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Eve said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> feedindy said:
> 
> 
> I just don't understand why people are afraid of giving children vaccines. Other things are worse for our bodies. Sunburn will do more damage to our bodies than vaccines. Some foods we all eat are worse for our bodies, like drinking soda every day. Think about things like childhood obesity, this is way more dangerous than a vaccine.
> 
> 
> I agree with the pp, if you are against vaccinating due to ingredients, does this mean you refuse most medications if you catch a disease because you believe the immune system can just handle it?
> 
> Even if someone says that they won't vaccinate because the chance of their child getting that disease is very low, the chances are low because of vaccinating the population, so you are relying on herd immunuty in the end.
> 
> From my experience, most people I know who do not vaccinate have---
> 
> Breastfed (which is VERY important)
> Eat organic foods
> Use their own homemade things like clothes soap etc....
> Use 100% cotton material for most clothing
> Eat little/no red meat and what is eaten is organic
> etc........
> 
> Using large sunhats and light but covering clothing is also very good at protecting from sunburn. I've used it on my two year old only while swimming and even then it was minimal. SPF clothing can be purchased for swimming and other activities involving water.
> 
> Most people I know who are against vaccines do not eat junk, do not drink pop or have it in their homes, do not allow all the refined sugars, do their own cooking/baking, use cloth to protect from chemicals in disposable diapers & more. Most I know who are against vaccines for their own children do respect others and if their child is ill, they are kept home. Most I know who are against vaccines *want optimal health for their children *and keep their little bodies free of as many toxins and chemicals as possible...
> 
> 
> 
> Ozzie.... I think bringing up whatever from another thread is childish and I would have hoped it wouldn't resort to such as we are all grown women here. What valid mature point are you trying to make with the car comment?Click to expand...
> 
> Funnily enough...so do parents who vaccinate!!!! :dohh:Click to expand...
> 
> Then there is no reason to argue and be so judgmental over it is there?Click to expand...

Maybe there is when my child has been sick because of other people and their irresponsible choices. :thumbup:


----------



## Ozzieshunni

I think I need to start posting pictures.


----------



## Eve

MrsPOP said:


> Eve said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MrsPOP said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Eve said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> feedindy said:
> 
> 
> I just don't understand why people are afraid of giving children vaccines. Other things are worse for our bodies. Sunburn will do more damage to our bodies than vaccines. Some foods we all eat are worse for our bodies, like drinking soda every day. Think about things like childhood obesity, this is way more dangerous than a vaccine.
> 
> 
> I agree with the pp, if you are against vaccinating due to ingredients, does this mean you refuse most medications if you catch a disease because you believe the immune system can just handle it?
> 
> Even if someone says that they won't vaccinate because the chance of their child getting that disease is very low, the chances are low because of vaccinating the population, so you are relying on herd immunuty in the end.
> 
> From my experience, most people I know who do not vaccinate have---
> 
> Breastfed (which is VERY important)
> Eat organic foods
> Use their own homemade things like clothes soap etc....
> Use 100% cotton material for most clothing
> Eat little/no red meat and what is eaten is organic
> etc........
> 
> Using large sunhats and light but covering clothing is also very good at protecting from sunburn. I've used it on my two year old only while swimming and even then it was minimal. SPF clothing can be purchased for swimming and other activities involving water.
> 
> Most people I know who are against vaccines do not eat junk, do not drink pop or have it in their homes, do not allow all the refined sugars, do their own cooking/baking, use cloth to protect from chemicals in disposable diapers & more. Most I know who are against vaccines for their own children do respect others and if their child is ill, they are kept home. Most I know who are against vaccines *want optimal health for their children *and keep their little bodies free of as many toxins and chemicals as possible...
> 
> 
> 
> Ozzie.... I think bringing up whatever from another thread is childish and I would have hoped it wouldn't resort to such as we are all grown women here. What valid mature point are you trying to make with the car comment?Click to expand...
> 
> Funnily enough...so do parents who vaccinate!!!! :dohh:Click to expand...
> 
> Then there is no reason to argue and be so judgmental over it is there?Click to expand...
> 
> Maybe there is when my child has been sick because of other people and their irresponsible choices. :thumbup:Click to expand...

Who got your child sick?


----------



## MrsPOP

I agree Ozzie, there's gotta be some lolcats knocking about on the subject?


----------



## Ozzieshunni

I think everyone is very stressed and on edge. *sigh*


----------



## MrsPOP

Eve, people who didnt vaccinate, their children got measles and passed it into my daughter.

I did explain that earlier in the thread :flower:


----------



## medic76097

Ozzieshunni said:


> What country are you in? Certain countries have different obligations when it comes to medical standards.
> 
> We will be delaying the MMR until 15 months, but Alex has had all his other vaccines on time. I believe it is irresponsible not to vaccinate unless your child has a known medical condition or has had a previous reaction to a vaccine.

I agree with the above!! The reason that the diseases are not a problem now is because people are getting vaccinated. You are leaving your child open to all sorts of diseases that can kill them or some other child if you dont. Mumps and Measles are making a come back because of lack of vaccinations. Whooping Cough is CURRENTLY killing babies under a year old in Canada. Every parent has a choice, every child does not. Its like making the choice to not buckle your child in a car seat. Thats YOUR choice, not theirs. There is no proven link to Autism and vaccines or vaccines causing any other issues in children. 

I personally am going to get my children done on time since I refuse to make the choice to chance it. I see it too much at work.


----------



## Vrinda

I had measles as a child, and so did my brother. We have acquired natural immunity now.
I believe those who are healthy in general overcome diseases ( I totally understand there is a RISK everywhere). It's the one with compromised immunity there's the problem I see. 

But my OP was about making a choice as a parent.

I wish no one no diseases, but come on, I read that MMR vaccine got 3 live viruses in it. And has been linked to so much adverse effects. It is not a easy choice as a parent.

I would like to hear from anyone who got experience with alternate schedule with splitting vaccine?


----------



## Eve

Yes, but I was just wondering exactly who it was. You claim them to be irresponsible etc... maybe they weren't. Maybe they had a valid reason not to? I am not trying to make light of what happened to your child and could have happened to your mother, I just think when we are all trying to do what is best for our children, some of the harshness could be toned down a little. Be bitter/angry, I am over things too, but I think we should all try to be understanding as well.


----------



## Loui1001

This feels like Groundhog day :nope:


----------



## aliss

Well, I'm of two minds. I think it's irresponsible to not vaccinate. Sorry, just my personal opinion. I will gladly allow my boy to play with non-vaxed kids, in fact he does. What can I say, I watched my sister almost die of meningitis, it's a sad thing to watch. On the other hand, you will always have a select group of people who truly believe vaccinations are harmful and you cannot force them to inoculate against their will as that is a human rights violation. And then you always have the conspiracy theorists.


----------



## medic76097

Vrinda said:


> Vaccines alone have not really swiped out some diseases. Yes, vaccines did play a role, I am not denying it But better hygiene, food availability, living conditions improved, etc also played some part in it. Now we are dealing with other diseases: What about that?
> 
> It is a very important topic I think.
> 
> I am not against vaccination but one friend did not vaccinate before and from then I am reading tons of things about it.
> I did vaccinate my LO but if I had better knowledge I would have delayed it.
> Now we are delaying such as MMR etc.
> 
> I caught measles as a child, along with my brother, we both were terribly ill with fever for a week or so. But then we developed a life-long immunity to it
> 
> Another concern to me with vaccination is this: It does not give you *life long immunity *against any diseases. And its also not 100 percent effective I read.
> Therefore the outbreaks: So many vaccinated kids also get the diseases, sadly!
> 
> Trust me the list goes on and on, there are pros and cons....
> and as I said, its the hardest decision I made ( to delay) I was actually leaning more towards not vaccinating.And now we are opting out some, which we do not thing applies to area we live.
> Plus again, my husband and his family got history of allergies and auto immune diseases and therefore it made us both think and re think about our decision.

Maybe read about what a vaccination DOES.. its doesnt eliminate the disease. It prevents the ones that dont get sick and are carriers from spreading the disease. In your cells are little 'key holes' that a disease gets into and when it connects there it 'turns on' the disease. Vaccinations use the synthetic version to fill those key holes so the disease cant get in and be shared. 

Educated choice are better then uneducated ones. If your child has a known medical condition then its smart to wait, but not to take it right off the table. Those vacciations might save your childs life in the future if they are already immune compromised


----------



## MonstHer

Some of you ladies in here are highly intolerant to different belief systems.
What is the point of sarcasm and ridicule? Are we in 6th grade?
This is the type of thread that makes me dislike bnb.


----------



## MrsPOP

Eve said:


> Yes, but I was just wondering exactly who it was. You claim them to be irresponsible etc... maybe they weren't. Maybe they had a valid reason not to? I am not trying to make light of what happened to your child and could have happened to your mother, I just think when we are all trying to do what is best for our children, some of the harshness could be toned down a little. Be bitter/angry, I am over things too, but I think we should all try to be understanding as well.

And as said before if there are genuine proven medical reasons not to vax then fair enough. But those who don't have a genuine proven medical reason in MY OPINION (and in a lot of other posters opinions) are highly irresponsible.

I don't know which individual gave my daughter measles. They may have had a reason but as I said before its pretty damn rare to have a reason not to vaccinate so it's more likely that it's down to a parent choosing not to vaccinate for no valid reason except for they believe the scaremongering out there on vaccines. The paediatric registrar also said that was the case and who pays the price? Kids like mine who are too young to be vaccinated.

From what you've touched upon in this thread something awful happened to you and your son (and I'm really sorry about that) and because of what happened to you, you say you don't trust all Doctors. Which is understandable.

So something horrible has happened to my daughter. Yes not as bad as what happened to you, but she was really sick and I was out of my mind with worry. So surely it's understandable that I am angry with non-vaxxers for donating their germs to my baby?

I'd appreciate if you'd stop jumping all over my comments. I'm not the only one disagreeing with you and I'm not being rude or aggressive in my tone to you. You say I should be understanding of non-vaxxers, well perhaps you should be more understanding of my anger. We're all mums, surely you should understand the primeval urge to rip someone's face off should they dare harm your child in anyway? My reaction to this is entirely normal and I would thank you to consider this.


----------



## feedindy

MrsPOP I just looked and under your name it said Alice's mummy, and for a split second I thought it said Alicemummy, and I thought to myself "Oh no she's back". lol


----------



## whit.

Ozzieshunni said:


> Vrinda said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ozzieshunni said:
> 
> 
> I've already reported myself. So, no worries there. :thumbup:
> 
> nice sense of humor :)Click to expand...
> 
> No, I'm serious. I have reported myself.Click to expand...

You sound like a nut case. :haha:

"I've been naughty, I'm going to sit myself in the corner."


----------



## Ozzieshunni

whit. said:


> Ozzieshunni said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vrinda said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ozzieshunni said:
> 
> 
> I've already reported myself. So, no worries there. :thumbup:
> 
> nice sense of humor :)Click to expand...
> 
> No, I'm serious. I have reported myself.Click to expand...
> 
> You sound like a nut case. :haha:
> 
> "I've been naughty, I'm going to sit myself in the corner."Click to expand...

Yup. No denying it. I don't like uneducated decisions. If someone wants to make an educated choice not to vaccinate, that's fine, but so far, I have only seen two posters who have made an educated choice based on reactions, medical conditions, and experiences.


----------



## My_First

Vrinda said:


> I read that MMR vaccine got 3 live viruses in it. And has been linked to so much adverse effects.

Firstly we are exposed to live viruses daily, secondly and I am not trying to be controversial, as its clear your stance on the subject, but what adverse affects has it been linked to?


----------



## My_First

Ozzieshunni said:


> whit. said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ozzieshunni said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vrinda said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ozzieshunni said:
> 
> 
> I've already reported myself. So, no worries there. :thumbup:
> 
> nice sense of humor :)Click to expand...
> 
> No, I'm serious. I have reported myself.Click to expand...
> 
> You sound like a nut case. :haha:
> 
> "I've been naughty, I'm going to sit myself in the corner."Click to expand...
> 
> Yup. No denying it. I don't like uneducated decisions. If someone wants to make an educated choice not to vaccinate, that's fine, but so far, I have only seen two posters who have made an educated choice based on reactions, medical conditions, and experiences.Click to expand...

I agree and thats kinda my problem with it too...


----------



## MrsPOP

feedindy said:


> MrsPOP I just looked and under your name it said Alice's mummy, and for a split second I thought it said Alicemummy, and I thought to myself "Oh no she's back". lol

:rofl:

Haha nope that's not me Im afraid. I ain't no internets troll, I just look like one in real life :holly:

ETA: maybe I should change that bit of my profile just in case others think that too :wacko:


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## Leopard

Ozzieshunni said:


> whit. said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ozzieshunni said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vrinda said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ozzieshunni said:
> 
> 
> I've already reported myself. So, no worries there. :thumbup:
> 
> nice sense of humor :)Click to expand...
> 
> No, I'm serious. I have reported myself.Click to expand...
> 
> You sound like a nut case. :haha:
> 
> "I've been naughty, I'm going to sit myself in the corner."Click to expand...
> 
> Yup. No denying it. I don't like uneducated decisions. If someone wants to make an educated choice not to vaccinate, that's fine, but so far, I have only seen two posters who have made an educated choice based on reactions, medical conditions, and experiences.Click to expand...

:cry: I'm sorry, I just dyed my hair blonde for my wedding tomorrow so I have blonde syndrome, baby brain and bride brain. K fair enough? :haha:


----------



## Eve

MrsPOP said:


> Eve said:
> 
> 
> Yes, but I was just wondering exactly who it was. You claim them to be irresponsible etc... maybe they weren't. Maybe they had a valid reason not to? I am not trying to make light of what happened to your child and could have happened to your mother, I just think when we are all trying to do what is best for our children, some of the harshness could be toned down a little. Be bitter/angry, I am over things too, but I think we should all try to be understanding as well.
> 
> And as said before if there are genuine proven medical reasons not to vax then fair enough. But those who don't have a genuine proven medical reason in MY OPINION (and in a lot of other posters opinions) are highly irresponsible.
> 
> I don't know which individual gave my daughter measles. They may have had a reason but as I said before its pretty damn rare to have a reason not to vaccinate so it's more likely that it's down to a parent choosing not to vaccinate for no valid reason except for they believe the scaremongering out there on vaccines. The paediatric registrar also said that was the case and who pays the price? Kids like mine who are too young to be vaccinated.
> 
> From what you've touched upon in this thread something awful happened to you and your son (and I'm really sorry about that) and because of what happened to you, you say you don't trust all Doctors. Which is understandable.
> 
> So something horrible has happened to my daughter. Yes not as bad as what happened to you, but she was really sick and I was out of my mind with worry. So surely it's understandable that I am angry with non-vaxxers for donating their germs to my baby?
> 
> I'd appreciate if you'd stop jumping all over my comments. I'm not the only one disagreeing with you and I'm not being rude or aggressive in my tone to you. You say I should be understanding of non-vaxxers, well perhaps you should be more understanding of my anger. We're all mums, surely you should understand the primeval urge to rip someone's face off should they dare harm your child in anyway? My reaction to this is entirely normal and I would thank you to consider this.Click to expand...

I am not intentionally trying to jump on your posts, I was just wondering if you knew who the exact person was and what the real circumstances were... 

I would be upset as well in your situation, as I said in my last post, I am not by no means trying to make light of your situation. I would be very angry in your situation. It's very understandable. I just think we all need to be more understanding of situations, and when I say all, I mean myself included. 
I am very glad your child is okay, and survived as it's a terrible thing to suffer a loss of a child. I am very sorry you had to go through that, and that your child had to go through that :hugs: 

My son died due to medical negligence. I had a complete placnetal abruption. I had high BP for weeks upon weeks. I am talking 170-180/95-110 resting. I wasn't given any medication to help control it, wasn't properly monitored and when I was sent to hospital 2 days prior to his delivery with very high bp I was sent home the same night. I asked to be induced, his heart rate was "sleepy" in their words and I was 45 minutes from any hospital, but sent home. He hadn't grown (uterus measuring) in 6+ weeks at this point but when I asked for an ultrasound they said it wasn't needed. I even had the reigional perinatologist see me in hospital and said it was fine. 
Two days later I thought my water had broken, but it was nothing but blood. Over an hour later, my son was delivered. 30 minutes later his heart began to beat again. He lived for 8 hours hooked to life support having constant siezures before he was removed from life support and passed away. 

In going through that, I have lost a lot of faith in doctors (not all by the way) and question their information. It wasn't long ago that smoking while pregnant was okay, it wasn't long ago some doctors were advising leaving infants under 6 months to CIO (some still do) etc... so I think it is okay to question things, including vaccines. Do I think we should all stop vaccinating? Heck no, I vaccinate my kids and feel it is best for them, however I think everyone is free to make their own choices in life and I will not judge someone for doing so. Also with the scaremongering... I hate it, I think it's wrong and it will push people to make choices that may not be best for their child/family/comminuity, believe me when I say that. I just don't think we should blame an individual person either. If someone truly believes what others may say about vaccines and ends up not vaccinating, I feel for them, as they must have been pretty scared and thought they did have a valid reason to refuse the vaccine. 

I am not a scientist, specialist, etc... so I can't say that my choices to vaccinate were the best there is, I do not know with 100% accuracy that the vaccines are safe and not going to cause long term damage or illness like cancer. I feel it's better than the alternative at the moment, but it's my choice, I made it.


----------



## Eve

My_First said:


> Ozzieshunni said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> whit. said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ozzieshunni said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vrinda said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ozzieshunni said:
> 
> 
> I've already reported myself. So, no worries there. :thumbup:
> 
> nice sense of humor :)Click to expand...
> 
> No, I'm serious. I have reported myself.Click to expand...
> 
> You sound like a nut case. :haha:
> 
> "I've been naughty, I'm going to sit myself in the corner."Click to expand...
> 
> Yup. No denying it. I don't like uneducated decisions. If someone wants to make an educated choice not to vaccinate, that's fine, but so far, I have only seen two posters who have made an educated choice based on reactions, medical conditions, and experiences.Click to expand...
> 
> I agree and thats kinda my problem with it too...Click to expand...

I didn't think there were more than 2-3 people who have not fully vaccinated their children in this thread. I know I did, we just delayed the MMR to space it out and didn't get the chicken pox one.


----------



## Eve

My_First said:


> Vrinda said:
> 
> 
> I read that MMR vaccine got 3 live viruses in it. And has been linked to so much adverse effects.
> 
> Firstly we are exposed to live viruses daily, secondly and I am not trying to be controversial, as its clear your stance on the subject, but what adverse affects has it been linked to?Click to expand...

It isn't linked to Autism, as that study has been retracted etc... 
I am unsure of what some believe are bad about it. 
I personally delayed as I do not like so much at once going into their little body and felt it best to wait as for some reason it made me feel sick to my stomach to have everything in there...


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## Vrinda

:hugs:


----------



## Eve

I also have a great respect and appreciation for doctors, as with their help I have my beautiful rainbow baby girl with me and I am getting help for my mentally disabled son, who also had a traumatic birth.


----------



## tu123

Ozzieshunni said:


> whit. said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ozzieshunni said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vrinda said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ozzieshunni said:
> 
> 
> I've already reported myself. So, no worries there. :thumbup:
> 
> nice sense of humor :)Click to expand...
> 
> No, I'm serious. I have reported myself.Click to expand...
> 
> You sound like a nut case. :haha:
> 
> "I've been naughty, I'm going to sit myself in the corner."Click to expand...
> 
> Yup. No denying it. I don't like uneducated decisions. If someone wants to make an educated choice not to vaccinate, that's fine, but so far, I have only seen two posters who have made an educated choice based on reactions, medical conditions, and experiences.Click to expand...

Exactly. I do not understand how anyone can still think the risks of not having vacs outweigh the risks of having them. 
Aside for medical reasons.

THERE IS NO PROVEN SCIENTIFIC RESEARCH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Seems delusional to me.


----------



## Pielette

The MMR jab's link to autism was based on one now discredited study. The fact is that autism manifests itself at a similar age and that is why it was jumped on. I have not seen or heard about any other studies showing links to other conditions or side effects, would be interested to see if anyone knows of any.


----------



## Vrinda

I am listenng to everyone of you. 

I wasnt talking about autism, but also other adverse effects. its just that there are way too many jabs now then used to be even just a decade ago. And many other such things, make me question it. 

I am not a big fan of BIG pharma too


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## Ozzieshunni

How does your OH feel about this?


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## milf2be

:wacko: how is this thread still open with so much barely disguised bullying going on?? why is someone being ridiculed for not taking a baby in a car? so what?? :dohh:



also have i missed something, what happened with alicemummy?:wacko:


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## Lil_Pixie

Lol nothing happened with alicemummy. Mrspops sig said Alice's mummy and someone had a giddy moment


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## My_First

Vrinda said:


> I am listenng to everyone of you.
> 
> I wasnt talking about autism, but also other adverse effects. its just that there are way too many jabs now then used to be even just a decade ago. And many other such things, make me question it.

Again, I appreciate your decision, I am just trying to fathom what adverse affects you mean? 

The reason there are more jabs now than there were decades ago is because we (as in pharma's) are CONSTANTLY finding new things that make us better, aid our immunity...


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## MrsPOP

Eve I am so sorry for what happened to you and your son :hugs:


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## milf2be

right so i imagine the troll comments then


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## Ozzieshunni

milf2be said:


> right so i imagine the troll comments then

Thanks! :thumbup: OP and I cleared things up. So.....no need to keep dragging it up.


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## Lil_Pixie

No, it was just a bit of banter. No need to be snappy


----------



## Lil_Pixie

I thought the troll comment was just mrspop joking?


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## Ozzieshunni

I'm not sure really. :shrug:


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## milf2be

Lil_Pixie said:


> No, it was just a bit of banter. No need to be snappy

wasnt in the least bit snappy :thumbup:


----------



## milf2be

Ozzieshunni said:


> milf2be said:
> 
> 
> right so i imagine the troll comments then
> 
> Thanks! :thumbup: OP and I cleared things up. So.....no need to keep dragging it up.Click to expand...

i was talking about alicemummy? i thought she had been banned for trolling or something :shrug:




Lil_Pixie said:


> I thought the troll comment was just mrspop joking?

i know it was a joke, but its at the expense of someone else which i think is quite mean :/


----------



## Lil_Pixie

MrsPOP said:


> feedindy said:
> 
> 
> MrsPOP I just looked and under your name it said Alice's mummy, and for a split second I thought it said Alicemummy, and I thought to myself "Oh no she's back". lol
> 
> :rofl:
> 
> Haha nope that's not me Im afraid. I ain't no internets troll, I just look like one in real life :holly:
> 
> ETA: maybe I should change that bit of my profile just in case others think that too :wacko:Click to expand...

This was all it was x


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## Ozzieshunni

Ah! Sorry milf :flower:


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## Lil_Pixie

Personally I think alicemummy is fair game but fair enough


----------



## milf2be

im so confused and iv got a headache :sad2:


and i thought i had missed something interesting but apparently not :brat:


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## Ozzieshunni

:rofl: :hugs:


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## Eve

We aren't to speak of banned members, am I right? If this person was banned from bnb we need not talk about her :flower:


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## Eve

Thank you MrsPOP, as I am with your LO. As parents we want to do the best to protect our children :flower:


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## Lil_Pixie

Oops! Didn't know that!


----------



## Vickie

Pretty sure most of us know forum rules and TOS in regards to this but just in case:



> You may not post about or on behalf of any banned member using the forum posting, private messages, or signatures features.

;)

Let's move the thread past this please


----------



## Pramaholic86

I've vaccinated as per NHS guidelines. It seems that a lot of 'research' consists of googling and reports by various non entities, if I was going to opt out of vaccinating I'd want some proper medical evidence to back it up first :wacko:
Even if there was a proven link between vaccinating and risk of autism I'd take it, autism isn't potentially fatal?
I'm pretty shocked that some people think that breastfeeding will stop children from contracting these diseases :dohh:


----------



## MrsPOP

Yes of course I was joking! And the joke was was at my expense, I was saying I looked like a troll in real life (ie: a minger) and Im not an 'internet troll' as You Know Who Was which is why she was banned. I'm sorry you think I'm mean Milf it wasn't meant to be mean.

(sorry mods I know we're not meant to talk about banned members but I'm just trying to defend myself by explaining my obviously rubbish self-deprecating joke so people dont think I'm nasty. I'll shut up now :flower: )


----------



## Eve

Pramaholic86 said:


> I've vaccinated as per NHS guidelines. It seems that a lot of 'research' consists of googling and reports by various non entities, if I was going to opt out of vaccinating I'd want some proper medical evidence to back it up first :wacko:
> Even if there was a proven link between vaccinating and risk of autism I'd take it, autism isn't potentially fatal?
> *I'm pretty shocked that some people think that breastfeeding will stop children from contracting these diseases *:dohh:

I don't think anyone said this... I was just explaining how health concious most moms who I know that do not vax are. Unless I've missed something.


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## Pramaholic86

tina3747 said:


> one mum thought her breast milk would give full immunity against polio measles ect?!

^^^^ again, :dohh:


----------



## Vrinda

Ozzieshunni said:


> How does your OH feel about this?

My OH has family history of allergies and such auto immune diseases , one of the reasons why we want to delay...

Our doctor she also has recommended for alternative vaccination after our discussing with her. But anyway we are still changing the doctor after all that happened


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## Ozzieshunni

Sounds like she was being reasonable though. Would she have another reason to report you?


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## RebeccaG

I still don't really understand if you have good reason to delay and have explained to your doctor why they'd report you?!


----------



## TattiesMum

Leopard said:


> Vaccinating is also closely link with autism and other psychological problems

Sorry but I just needed to point out that the research which led to the whole 'vaccines cause autism' argument has been well and truly discredited (although puzzlingly it still seems to be doing the rounds :shrug: )


----------



## tommyg

It sounds like your Doc attempted to calm your fears and offer alternatives. It does sound like their is another reason why you were reported.

Maybe they have to or something else was niggling the doc?


----------



## roomaloo

Pramaholic86 said:


> tina3747 said:
> 
> 
> one mum thought her breast milk would give full immunity against polio measles ect?!
> 
> ^^^^ again, :dohh:Click to expand...

Maybe she meant that whatever you're immune to gets passed on through the breast milk for a certain amount of time, and things like measles, mumps and rubella up to a year.


----------



## Lil_Pixie

If your doc offered alternates it doesn't sound like she was being particaly difficult. Even though it's not a legal requirement to report it maybe it is just that practices policy?


----------



## SKATERBUN

I told my GP that I wouldnt inject my LO's with anything that I wouldnt inject in myself, my concerns are purely the preservatives they contain,formaldehyde,Aluminium it is not natural and I am not prepared to risk the long term implications - I was never vaccinated myself as a baby so I guess it stems from there. My first vax was at 7 years old. If a baby is vacinated then tbh I dont know why a parent would be concerned about a non vacinated baby. In populated areas I have heard of outbreaks of measles etc, but these diseases have always been around, I have had almost all the illnesses going. I believe its down to the indiviual to make up their own minds and not be bullied, one way or the other, I read the pros and cons and and am not just swayed by fear mongering, I trust my own instincts. Its unfair that you have this attitude in your country - I reckon that half the doctors know the cons and havent actually vaccinated their own kids, the bullying comes from top level at the end of the day, the government, and do I trust them? do i hell! :D


----------



## Vrinda

I came to know that they keep registry or something of all such things, thats why she ( any doctor ) has to officially report to hygiene( preventive and social) department but sometimes its just a number of cases, sometimes they do not give more details about patients only number, in our case she gave our details also which she shouldnt have actually she violated some rules according to my lawyer.

So what happened then?
We were called by that dept and the lady there said - You are called to this office because your doctor informed us you are not vaccinating ( which is not true anyway but she meant like we are delaying or opting out some ) and no other questions
So It was only because of vaccine.


As I updated, I am no longer angry with my doctor because it looks like she has other authorities pressure. 
Unlike UK, some countries are making vaccination rules more stringent and making difficult for parents to have a choice-bullying and threating is also a game :(

Some parents even are afraid they will take their babies ONLY because of vaccine decision. But thankfully the law is protecting many do not know the law even doctors

We are doing the best we can for our LO, we are even consulting doctors etc, LO is doing very well with her growth etc... doctor herself said that, its in her doctor book noted also about growth- is perfectly fine


But now I fear because last month she-that doctor- wanted me to start weaning-inspite of LO doing well for her age etc...I want to breastfeed as long as possible, I do not want to hurry with solids-I explained to her and what she said?
She said, I should start solids because that will provide antigens ! ?
And that I should give also rice mix everyday after asking me if my LO is sleeping well in night I said yes, only 1-2 times wakes up then she said about rice, I think she was just trying to sell that nestle leaflet gave me to lure me into it?! ( Rice for what? milk got more nutritional value) 
Come one, my LO was only 4 months when she said this- I know some mothers BF exclusively for atleast 6 months etc... My goal is even more and upto 2-3 years - if all goes well...I can introduce solids slowly when my baby can sit which is about 6-8 months or more- she is not even sitting now- show why???

All this reason I want to change my doctor

:cry: I want someone who can understand us, to make a informed choice considering the medical history of OH etc, somewhat doctor agrees and understands but is very pushy and above reason I am changing doc anyway
We are not against vaccine, doc knows that also...but we are afraid of somethings in it, and some vaccines-especially the one with viral,mercury, aluminium, etc in it

yes my OH and I are okay with some of the vaccines but only want delay with some and opt some out with harmful stuff in it and the disease not prevalent in our area, etc etc


----------



## Mooshie

If a baby is vaccinated, it doesn't always mean they won't get the disease :shrug:


----------



## MizzDeeDee

Vrinda said:


> Ozzieshunni said:
> 
> 
> How does your OH feel about this?
> 
> My OH has family history of allergies and such auto immune diseases , one of the reasons why we want to delay...
> 
> Our doctor she also has recommended for alternative vaccination after our discussing with her. But anyway we are still changing the doctor after all that happenedClick to expand...

This confuses me. I have a family history of autoimmune diseases. In fact, on my father's side.. almost all the girl children of him and his siblings have an autoimmune disease. I have Behcets and Fibromyalgia, a cousin has Lupus, a cousin has Addisons... etc etc. I also have pretty bad allergies- I've been on allergy shots twice. I also have Asthma(Reactive Airways). 

The fact that I have immune issues actually encourage me to get vaccines for my daughter and myself. My autoimmune disease was triggered from a 6 week or so Staph infection. I would be of the mindset that a full fledged version of an illness like Measles or Mumps would cause a autoimmune issue to manifest. Not a weakened and less virulent attenuated verson. Not to say a vaccine wouldn't trigger a immune response, only that I would think it less likely then say Wild Measles.

As for the allergy issue- I guess I have concerns for the eggs some of them use because I have a slight allergy to eggs, but I still take them anyway and deal with the slight reaction(i'm seriously allergic to everything, it's pretty sad). 

Has someone in your family actually had a poor reaction to a vaccine or are you trying to being preemptive and cautious? Just curious.


----------



## Mooshie

MizzDeeDee said:


> Vrinda said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ozzieshunni said:
> 
> 
> How does your OH feel about this?
> 
> My OH has family history of allergies and such auto immune diseases , one of the reasons why we want to delay...
> 
> Our doctor she also has recommended for alternative vaccination after our discussing with her. But anyway we are still changing the doctor after all that happenedClick to expand...
> 
> This confuses me. I have a family history of autoimmune diseases. In fact, on my father's side.. almost all the girl children of him and his siblings have an autoimmune disease. I have Behcets and Fibromyalgia, a cousin has Lupus, a cousin has Addisons... etc etc. I also have pretty bad allergies- I've been on allergy shots twice. I also have Asthma(Reactive Airways).
> 
> The fact that I have immune issues actually encourage me to get vaccines for my daughter and myself. My autoimmune disease was triggered from a 6 week or so Staph infection. I would be of the mindset that a full fledged version of an illness like Measles or Mumps would cause a autoimmune issue to manifest. Not a weakened and less virulent attenuated verson. Not to say a vaccine wouldn't trigger a immune response, only that I would think it less likely then say Wild Measles.
> 
> As for the allergy issue- I guess I have concerns for the eggs some of them use because I have a slight allergy to eggs, but I still take them anyway and deal with the slight reaction(i'm seriously allergic to everything, it's pretty sad).
> 
> Has someone in your family actually had a poor reaction to a vaccine or are you trying to being preemptive and cautious? Just curious.Click to expand...

I agree with this. My mother was allergic to absolutely everything and was very severly asthmatic (she died from an asthma attack aged 37) and myself and my brother are both Type 1 diabetics so we have a family history of allergies and auto-immune diseases. THIS is the reason I DO vaccinate my son.


----------



## Ozzieshunni

I have an autoimmune disease as well and I was vaccinated.

In my experience though, and I don't know what country you're from, doctors don't report parents to social services unless they have a good reason. From what you said, she doesn't have a good reason. Has social services actually contacted you? What are their concerns?


----------



## tu123

SKATERBUN said:


> I told my GP that I wouldnt inject my LO's with anything that I wouldnt inject in myself, my concerns are purely the preservatives they contain,*formaldehyde,Aluminium it is not natural *and I am not prepared to risk the long term implications - I was never vaccinated myself as a baby so I guess it stems from there. My first vax was at 7 years old. If a baby is vacinated then tbh I dont know why a parent would be concerned about a non vacinated baby. In populated areas I have heard of outbreaks of measles etc, but these diseases have always been around, I have had almost all the illnesses going. I believe its down to the indiviual to make up their own minds and not be bullied, one way or the other, I read the pros and cons and and am not just swayed by fear mongering, I trust my own instincts. Its unfair that you have this attitude in your country - I reckon that half the doctors know the cons and havent actually vaccinated their own kids, the bullying comes from top level at the end of the day, the government, and do I trust them? do i hell! :D

Both are found naturally occurring in the body. And aluminum is found naturally in many foods. Have you ever eaten bread or a cupcake? Aluminum is found in high concentrations in baking powder. So anything that you may have eaten tht is leavened contains higher than usual amounts of aluminium. NOt to mention cookware, anti perspirants, make up, tin foil, tablets, candies, coloured cereals and in water.

If a child develops measles they are at risk of pneumonia, enchephalitis and scaepticaemia, The drugs that are used to treat this are certainly very man made and "unnatural".


----------



## MrsPOP

SKATERBUN said:


> I told my GP that I wouldnt inject my LO's with anything that I wouldnt inject in myself, my concerns are purely the preservatives they contain,formaldehyde,Aluminium it is not natural and I am not prepared to risk the long term implications - I was never vaccinated myself as a baby so I guess it stems from there. My first vax was at 7 years old. * If a baby is vacinated then tbh I dont know why a parent would be concerned about a non vacinated baby. *In populated areas I have heard of outbreaks of measles etc, but these diseases have always been around, I have had almost all the illnesses going. I believe its down to the indiviual to make up their own minds and not be bullied, one way or the other, I read the pros and cons and and am not just swayed by fear mongering, I trust my own instincts. Its unfair that you have this attitude in your country - *I reckon that half the doctors know the cons and havent actually vaccinated their own kids, the bullying comes from top level at the end of the day, *the government, and do I trust them? do i hell! :D

1st BIB: my daughter is too young for the MMR, hence why I am bothers about non-vaccinated children as she is at risk of developing those conditions ( and did develop measles) if she came into contact with them whilst they were infectious. Just to show how highly infectious measles is, my daughter didnt come into direct contact with a measles kid, she caught it from being in a section of the hospital where measles cases had been isolated earlier that day.

2nd BIB: not this Doctor and not my Doctor friends who are parents! I will be vaccinating my child as per NHS/HPA guidelines. I feel that is the right thing to do for my child, nothing to do with meeting targets, it's to do with protecting my daughter.


----------



## tu123

Someone mentioned it would be against human rights to make it illegal to forego the vaccines.

But human rights are also about responsibility and following a certain code of conduct in looking after ourselves and each other.


----------



## Vrinda

MizzDeeDee said:


> Vrinda said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ozzieshunni said:
> 
> 
> How does your OH feel about this?
> 
> My OH has family history of allergies and such auto immune diseases , one of the reasons why we want to delay...
> 
> Our doctor she also has recommended for alternative vaccination after our discussing with her. But anyway we are still changing the doctor after all that happenedClick to expand...
> 
> This confuses me. I have a family history of autoimmune diseases. In fact, on my father's side.. almost all the girl children of him and his siblings have an autoimmune disease. I have Behcets and Fibromyalgia, a cousin has Lupus, a cousin has Addisons... etc etc. I also have pretty bad allergies- I've been on allergy shots twice. I also have Asthma(Reactive Airways).
> 
> The fact that I have immune issues actually encourage me to get vaccines for my daughter and myself. My autoimmune disease was triggered from a 6 week or so Staph infection. I would be of the mindset that a full fledged version of an illness like Measles or Mumps would cause a autoimmune issue to manifest. Not a weakened and less virulent attenuated verson. Not to say a vaccine wouldn't trigger a immune response, only that I would think it less likely then say Wild Measles.
> 
> As for the allergy issue- I guess I have concerns for the eggs some of them use because I have a slight allergy to eggs, but I still take them anyway and deal with the slight reaction(i'm seriously allergic to everything, it's pretty sad).
> 
> Has someone in your family actually had a poor reaction to a vaccine or are you trying to being preemptive and cautious? Just curious.Click to expand...

My OH also has diagnosed food allergy and cannot dairy, no eggs, slight allergy to soya too etc. So we are being cautiious-about reaction I have no idea I will have to ask MIL about it but I think it was fine or OH would have mentioned. So yes, also being cautious


----------



## Vrinda

My OH also has diagnosed food allergy and cannot dairy, no eggs, slight allergy to soya too etc. So we are being cautiious-about reaction I have no idea I will have to ask MIL about it but I think it was fine or OH would have mentioned. So yes, also being cautious


----------



## Eve

tu123 said:


> Someone mentioned it would be against human rights to make it illegal to forego the vaccines.
> 
> But human rights are also about responsibility and following a certain code of conduct in looking after ourselves and each other.

I agree here, but not just with vaccines. There are many choices parents make that can have a direct effect on their child's outcome in life later on, but they are also seen as choices, and you can't force people to do something they do not want to do. We should all do things that make our comminuty healthier as a whole....


----------



## tommyg

SKATERBUN said:


> I told my GP that I wouldnt inject my LO's with anything that I wouldnt inject in myself, my concerns are purely the preservatives they contain,formaldehyde,Aluminium it is not natural and I am not prepared to risk the long term implications - I was never vaccinated myself as a baby so I guess it stems from there. My first vax was at 7 years old. If a baby is vacinated then tbh I dont know why a parent would be concerned about a non vacinated baby. In populated areas I have heard of outbreaks of measles etc, but these diseases have always been around, I have had almost all the illnesses going. I believe its down to the indiviual to make up their own minds and not be bullied, one way or the other, I read the pros and cons and and am not just swayed by fear mongering, I trust my own instincts. Its unfair that you have this attitude in your country - I reckon that half the doctors know the cons and havent actually vaccinated their own kids, the bullying comes from top level at the end of the day, the government, and do I trust them? do i hell! :D

You are relying on herd immunity to protect you and your chilc. Have you not read Mrs POPs responces she is a Doctor who is very angry and rightly so that other peoples lifestyle choices have put her baby too young to have had the MMR at risk.

You are relying on herd immunity to protect you and your LO. In order for herd immunity to work 95% of the population needs to be vaccinated. That remaining 5% included the children who are too young to be vaccinated and the children who have conditions that mean they can't be vaccinated. 

It's not unfair that the OP's country has the attitude that children should be vaccinated I actually think every country should have the same policy. Then we'd see less rises in children getting ill because of parent choices.


----------



## steph.

SKATERBUN said:


> I told my GP that I wouldnt inject my LO's with anything that I wouldnt inject in myself, my concerns are purely the preservatives they contain,formaldehyde,Aluminium it is not natural and I am not prepared to risk the long term implications - I was never vaccinated myself as a baby so I guess it stems from there. My first vax was at 7 years old. If a baby is vacinated then tbh I dont know why a parent would be concerned about a non vacinated baby. In populated areas I have heard of outbreaks of measles etc, but these diseases have always been around, I have had almost all the illnesses going. I believe its down to the indiviual to make up their own minds and not be bullied, one way or the other, I read the pros and cons and and am not just swayed by fear mongering, I trust my own instincts. Its unfair that you have this attitude in your country - I* reckon that half the doctors know the cons and havent actually vaccinated their own kids,* the bullying comes from top level at the end of the day, the government, and do I trust them? do i hell! :D

Err no. I am a doctor and vaccinate my baby, as do all of my colleagues. Unfortunately we have seen first hand what the result of not vaccinating can be :nope:


----------



## tommyg

Vrinda ok so OH has allergies but your Doc offered alternative vacines. Why did you refuse those?

Have you had LO tested for allergies?


----------



## Vrinda

Nope we are not refusing alternative schedule which is also to split the vaccine and are consulting the expert ( ironically she recommended and is the only known here) LO is not tested for allergies I believe its not accurate until they are 2-3 years and mostly come up false negatives ? Correct me if its not so! We are cautious because OH was tested positive for allergy

One the of the reasons and I wanted to exclusively breastfeed inspite of doctors wanting to put Lo on bottle right after birth inspite of me yelling not to and after a slow start I could ! I am not against doctors, I understand its a tough job, but luckily I could pick ones I could be more comfortable with and could avoid the pushy one there etc.

I have many doctors allopathic in my family and also ayurvedics, so I get both sides perspective...
I get to talk to them, and there are always different opinions.

Thanks again ladies, for your input, it definitely gives some thought on both sides ( to vaccinate or not to vaccinate) I think its better to put out the concerns and discuss. Its for me one of the most difficult decision I made again. Somethings I was just plain blank didnt decide, cloth or disposable-cloth worked wonderfully too :) But this one is not easy to decide


----------



## roomaloo

The MMR is given at a year old because you should have natural immunity to it until then (have a look on the NHS website, it tells you this) else they'd give it earlier. So no one is putting her child who is 'too young to have MMR' at risk.

Also, for those reluctant to give shots cos of the ingredients it's all very well saying that aluminium etc is naturally occurring in food - yes it is, but it goes through the digestive system and a very small amount gets into the blood stream. Not injected straight into the blood stream where you get the full impact of it all.

In the same way that a natural immune response happens when it enters through your mouth/nose, not direct to the bloodstream.


----------



## tommyg

Roomaloo if Mrs Pops LO whos 8months has a natural immunity to measles how did she catch them?


----------



## lisa1980

steph. said:


> SKATERBUN said:
> 
> 
> I told my GP that I wouldnt inject my LO's with anything that I wouldnt inject in myself, my concerns are purely the preservatives they contain,formaldehyde,Aluminium it is not natural and I am not prepared to risk the long term implications - I was never vaccinated myself as a baby so I guess it stems from there. My first vax was at 7 years old. If a baby is vacinated then tbh I dont know why a parent would be concerned about a non vacinated baby. In populated areas I have heard of outbreaks of measles etc, but these diseases have always been around, I have had almost all the illnesses going. I believe its down to the indiviual to make up their own minds and not be bullied, one way or the other, I read the pros and cons and and am not just swayed by fear mongering, I trust my own instincts. Its unfair that you have this attitude in your country - I* reckon that half the doctors know the cons and havent actually vaccinated their own kids,* the bullying comes from top level at the end of the day, the government, and do I trust them? do i hell! :D
> 
> Err no. I am a doctor and vaccinate my baby, as do all of my colleagues. Unfortunately we have seen first hand what the result of not vaccinating can be :nope:Click to expand...

:thumbup:

My husband and I are both doctors and we gladly take our son for his jabs. As above, we've seen the devastation that some of these diseases can cause, not just illness but sometimes death :nope:, and we have absolutely no qualms in vaccinating. There are a multitude of reliable, well-researched studies which I trust (unlike a lot of the rubbish that gets quoted from the internet :wacko:) and I feel happy to make my decision based on those. 

All of my colleagues vaccinate their children too, as a lot of them have also seen the other side of this story :cry:


----------



## linzylinz

feel like im throwing myself to the wolfs here saying this, my middle child is 7 and i didnt take him for his second mmr shot. my friends lo had hers and was then diagnosed autistic, this was before all the evidence that showed the study was wrong but it frightened me then when the news came out about the unrelaibility of the study we moved and changed dr, i just didnt get round to it.

reading all the stuff on here about how i not vacinating my child could put a child with cancer or a young baby at risk all because i didnt educate myself properly makes me feel shit. 
is it too late for him to have the shot now? could i get it booked for when lo has hers? she is nearly 10months

please dont get mad at me feel bad enough allready :cry:


----------



## Vrinda

I am concerned about MMR, I will be discussing and educating myself about the pros and cons. I read somewhere earlier they were giving in splits so I do not understand why now MMR all 3 together? 

I am not big fan of BIG pharma again.
Regarding that study- I feel that nowhere was mentioned not to vaccinate-only there was correlation shown about the adverse effects possibly related to vaccine. So the provacciners, what do you think about giving measles vaccine alone instead of MMR?


----------



## roomaloo

https://www.nhs.uk/chq/Pages/939.aspx?CategoryID=54&SubCategoryID=135

Maybe she never had it and therefore has no immunity to pass on, or maybe she had the shot and her immunity has worn off.

Diseases are being pushed into the older generations, more young adults are getting measles, mumps and rubella when their immunity goes (it is not lifelong, in fact no one knows how long immunity lasts from vaccines hence having boosters. They are still debating over when to stop tetanus)

So not everyone with measles out spreading the disease is someone who opted not to vaccinate their child, it's people who were vaccinated when younger too. And as the most contagious period is before the first spots are seen it's rather hard to know to quarantine yourself. I'm sure no one would be taking sick children out to infect the communities, as they are in bed recovering!


----------



## deafgal

my son have egg allergies that gives hime ezcema. It takes a very long time to get his ezcema under control (he can't sleep sometimes) So I am very careful about vaccinations as some of them have egg proteins although I know it is a small amount. I rather delay a month after birth before I start allowing vaccinations (I am picky about babies being poked and prodded). I did that with my son and it was fine. 

the only thing is that in the U.S. , is that schooling is a mandatory for all children (how they should be schooled is up to the parents as long the state approves it), and because they have to go to school, they are required to have vaccinations unless they have exemption (like religious exemptions)


----------



## Vrinda

Thanks for the link roomaloo


----------



## Vrinda

can doctors please reply what did my doctor mean by introducing antigen through food? Its hard to communicate things with doc as she doesnt speak much english neither do I speak her local language,etc...in fact english is not my language either, but somehow we communicate and understand or try to, one another......So anyway, introducing solids means introducing antigens-who can elaborate this


----------



## Ozzieshunni

I'm not a doctor, but my mother was a nurse and I have never heard of antigens being in food :wacko: An antigen is something that your immune system has a response to, like a virus or bacteria.


----------



## roomaloo

antigens are present in food that people can have common allergic reactions to

this may help

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1753-4887.1984.tb02295.x/pdf


----------



## deafgal

SKATERBUN said:


> I told my GP that I wouldnt inject my LO's with anything that I wouldnt inject in myself, my concerns are purely the preservatives they contain,formaldehyde,Aluminium it is not natural and I am not prepared to risk the long term implications - I was never vaccinated myself as a baby so I guess it stems from there. My first vax was at 7 years old. If a baby is vacinated then tbh I dont know why a parent would be concerned about a non vacinated baby. In populated areas I have heard outbreaks of measles etc, but these diseases have always been around, I have had almost all the illnesses going. I believe its down to the indiviual to make up their own minds and not be bullied, one way or the other, I read the pros and cons and and am not just swayed by fear mongering, I trust my own instincts. Its unfair that you have this attitude in your country - I reckon that half the doctors know the cons and havent actually vaccinated their own kids,
> 
> the bullying comes from top level at the end of the day, the government, and do I trust them? do i hell! :D

yes, people are concern for other well being..they are even paying taxes to support those who have been disabled due to viruses . one person I used to know had polio and to this day, she limps when she walk. it is talking a toll on her back and she is suffering post polio syndrome. In result, she have to apply for gov't assistence and social security disability income (SSDI - this is for people who worked at least over five years and became disabled or working was a 
struggle because of disability ) So people will be upset if you don't vaccine your kids to prevent future problems.


----------



## Vrinda

roomaloo said:


> antigens are present in food that people can have common allergic reactions to
> 
> this may help
> 
> https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1753-4887.1984.tb02295.x/pdf

Roomaloo yes I remember the doctor saying exactly this.

Therefore I got confused, this should be reason TO DELAY Solids NOT TO START as doctor kept suggesting, right?

I read that those who exclusively breastfeed LO have less chance of allergy etc... So I dont understand why was she pushing on solids at so early age...


----------



## spaceprawn

https://i.imgur.com/VrXUM.jpg


----------



## roomaloo

i would have thought so too?!


----------



## Ozzieshunni

spaceprawn said:


> https://i.imgur.com/VrXUM.jpg

Was this really needed? I don't think worrying about my child's health because people don't vaccinate is something I can let slide.


----------



## spaceprawn

Ozzieshunni said:


> spaceprawn said:
> 
> 
> https://i.imgur.com/VrXUM.jpg
> 
> Was this really needed? I don't think worrying about my child's health because people don't vaccinate is something I can let slide.Click to expand...

I thought it was quite amusing, and very true!


----------



## whit.

Ozzieshunni said:


> spaceprawn said:
> 
> 
> https://i.imgur.com/VrXUM.jpg
> 
> Was this really needed? I don't think worrying about my child's health because people don't vaccinate is something I can let slide.Click to expand...

Ohh, Lighten up. You know the picture is funny and true. She wasn't saying anything about not taking vaccinations seriously or anything.

Go post a picture of a banana or something.

:winkwink:


----------



## Aidan's Mummy

Aidan is fully vaccinated and so will this baby be. I have studied immunisations as a student nurse and I have also seen the devistating affects these diseases have on children. For people worried about what vaccines contained then you would hate what the drugs used to combat them contain. FAR more 'chemicals' etc are in the drugs used to treat children with the diseases than in the vaccines themselves. Vaccinations do save lifes and give children a better chance of fighting off the disease if they contract it. Vaccines do not stop your child from contracting the disease so therefore un-vaccinated children CAN pass it on to them, vaccines gives the body the anti-bodies to fight the infection meaning it will have less of an impact if it is contracted. For example if a vaccinated child contracts a disease then their body can fight it off before it causes any lasting damage or death whereas a child that hasn't been vaccinated has no such thing. Meaning their body has to waste time producing the anti-bodies and THEN fighting it, giving the disease a chance to take hold meaning it is much harder to treat. I have nursed un-vaxed children in intensive care whereas a vaxed child was being treated on the ward in isolation with the same disease. I am more than happy to ensure my child is equipped to combat a disease quickly and effectivley x


----------



## Ozzieshunni

whit. said:


> Ozzieshunni said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> spaceprawn said:
> 
> 
> https://i.imgur.com/VrXUM.jpg
> 
> Was this really needed? I don't think worrying about my child's health because people don't vaccinate is something I can let slide.Click to expand...
> 
> Ohh, Lighten up. You know the picture is funny and true. She wasn't saying anything about not taking vaccinations seriously or anything.
> 
> Go post a picture of a banana or something.
> 
> :winkwink:Click to expand...

Awwww, go eat a llama.


----------



## whit.

https://i1067.photobucket.com/albums/u431/ccdurra/annoyedllama-1.gif


----------



## MizzDeeDee

Ozzieshunni said:


> whit. said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ozzieshunni said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> spaceprawn said:
> 
> 
> https://i.imgur.com/VrXUM.jpg
> 
> Was this really needed? I don't think worrying about my child's health because people don't vaccinate is something I can let slide.Click to expand...
> 
> Ohh, Lighten up. You know the picture is funny and true. She wasn't saying anything about not taking vaccinations seriously or anything.
> 
> Go post a picture of a banana or something.
> 
> :winkwink:Click to expand...
> 
> Awwww, go eat a llama.Click to expand...

All I know.....


Is that this thread... 


*Has been ozzified.*


:dance::headspin::dance::headspin::dance::headspin::dance::headspin::dance:


----------



## Ozzieshunni

:saywhat: I don't know if I should be hurt, or insulted :cry: :tease:


----------



## Ozzieshunni

https://media.fakeposters.com/results/2010/09/22/08phm1ybw8.gif

Just for Whit. Because I love her so much :winkwink: :smug: She just wanted to see my dancing banana.


----------



## tommyg

linzylinz said:


> feel like im throwing myself to the wolfs here saying this, my middle child is 7 and i didnt take him for his second mmr shot. my friends lo had hers and was then diagnosed autistic, this was before all the evidence that showed the study was wrong but it frightened me then when the news came out about the unrelaibility of the study we moved and changed dr, i just didnt get round to it.
> 
> reading all the stuff on here about how i not vacinating my child could put a child with cancer or a young baby at risk all because i didnt educate myself properly makes me feel shit.
> is it too late for him to have the shot now? could i get it booked for when lo has hers? she is nearly 10months
> 
> please dont get mad at me feel bad enough allready :cry:

Linzylinz I can understand esp at there was a lot of contraversy surrounding the MMR that has since been discredited. I would phone your Doc and ask about him getting the booster.
I can imagine that they'd be any reason why not but you can only ask


----------



## TattiesMum

roomaloo said:


> The MMR is given at a year old because you should have natural immunity to it until then (have a look on the NHS website, it tells you this) else they'd give it earlier. So no one is putting her child who is 'too young to have MMR' at risk.
> 
> Also, for those reluctant to give shots cos of the ingredients it's all very well saying that aluminium etc is naturally occurring in food - yes it is, but it goes through the digestive system and a very small amount gets into the blood stream. Not injected straight into the blood stream where you get the full impact of it all.
> 
> In the same way that a natural immune response happens when it enters through your mouth/nose, not direct to the bloodstream.

A baby will only have short term and limited natural immunity if he/she has been able to 'inherit' those antibodies from their Mother during pregnancy ... 

If the Mother is not of an age to have been given the MMR (which only came out in 1991 - my eldest who was born in '89 wasn't offered it) and has never had the disease then where is this magical 'natural immunity' to come from? :shrug:

I also don't get the whole 'natural immune response' thing ... isn't that just essentially saying that you want your child to gain immunity to diseases the hard way - by getting the disease? 

And if so, then why bother sterilising bottles/dummies/feeding utensils or using anti-bacterial wipes/sprays/etc ... surely it would be better to not bother and just let the child get ill so that it strengthens their natural immune response?


----------



## roomaloo

No a natural immune response is getting it the right way - so it lasts. Some people will get it, some won't. Just because you're exposed to a disease doesn't mean you'll get it for sure. And some will not even notice they have it and still build up the immune response. It depends on the individual.

Immunisations do not last.

Like i said in my other post, you'll only get natural immunity from your mother if she is immune obviously. I'm just pointing out the NHS's stance on why the MMR is given later and other shots sooner. 

People just seem to be terrified of getting sick these days.


----------



## Loui1001

roomaloo said:


> No a natural immune response is getting it the right way - so it lasts. Some people will get it, some won't. Just because you're exposed to a disease doesn't mean you'll get it for sure. And some will not even notice they have it and still build up the immune response. It depends on the individual.
> 
> Immunisations do not last.
> 
> Like i said in my other post, you'll only get natural immunity from your mother if she is immune obviously. I'm just pointing out the NHS's stance on why the MMR is given later and other shots sooner.
> 
> *People just seem to be terrified of getting sick these days*.

I'll put my hands up and admit that I am terrified of my child contracting a potentially fatal illness. What mother on earth wouldn't be??????


----------



## x_Rainbow_x

TattiesMum said:


> roomaloo said:
> 
> 
> The MMR is given at a year old because you should have natural immunity to it until then (have a look on the NHS website, it tells you this) else they'd give it earlier. So no one is putting her child who is 'too young to have MMR' at risk.
> 
> Also, for those reluctant to give shots cos of the ingredients it's all very well saying that aluminium etc is naturally occurring in food - yes it is, but it goes through the digestive system and a very small amount gets into the blood stream. Not injected straight into the blood stream where you get the full impact of it all.
> 
> In the same way that a natural immune response happens when it enters through your mouth/nose, not direct to the bloodstream.
> 
> A baby will only have short term and limited natural immunity if he/she has been able to 'inherit' those antibodies from their Mother during pregnancy ...
> 
> If the Mother is not of an age to have been given the MMR (which only came out in 1991 - my eldest who was born in '89 wasn't offered it) and has never had the disease then where is this magical 'natural immunity' to come from? :shrug:
> 
> I also don't get the whole 'natural immune response' thing ... isn't that just essentially saying that you want your child to gain immunity to diseases the hard way - by getting the disease?
> 
> And if so, then why bother sterilising bottles/dummies/feeding utensils or using anti-bacterial wipes/sprays/etc ... surely it would be better to not bother and just let the child get ill so that it strengthens their natural immune response?Click to expand...

Really? im older and iv had my MMR. In fact i was offered it again lol


----------



## x_Rainbow_x

Loui1001 said:


> roomaloo said:
> 
> 
> No a natural immune response is getting it the right way - so it lasts. Some people will get it, some won't. Just because you're exposed to a disease doesn't mean you'll get it for sure. And some will not even notice they have it and still build up the immune response. It depends on the individual.
> 
> Immunisations do not last.
> 
> Like i said in my other post, you'll only get natural immunity from your mother if she is immune obviously. I'm just pointing out the NHS's stance on why the MMR is given later and other shots sooner.
> 
> *People just seem to be terrified of getting sick these days*.
> 
> I'll put my hands up and admit that I am terrified of my child contracting a potentially fatal illness. What mother on earth wouldn't be??????Click to expand...

Im with you on that one. Id never forgive myself if she caught something that could have been prevented.


----------



## LannieDuck

I'd like to say a quick 'thank you' to Vrinda for being so calm and polite in her responses all the way through this thread. I think your desire to understand both sides of the vaxing argument is admirable, and I hope you find a solution that you're happy with.


----------



## Aidan's Mummy

> People just seem to be terrified of getting sick these days.

Defianlty! Why? Because after nursing children who have contracted one of the diseases vaccinated against. I am petrified of my child going through that much pain, watching them fade in front of my eyes, struggle to breathe and not being able to do anything about it. Apart from watch the doctors/nurses work on my child praying that they pull through it with no long term affects or not even make it at all x


----------



## deafgal

I think MMR came earlier than the 90's A social worker who was working with me (part of the WIC program in my state) when I had my son told me that according to my record, I had the MMR vaccination. we were discussing the risks and autism . I was born in the 70's


----------



## Mooshie

I was born in 1978, I remember getting my rubella injection in high school. I "think" I was immunised against measles when I was a baby, but I'm not sure if inwas immunised against mumps as I got it when I was about 7/8.


----------



## tu123

The first MMR was licensed and used in 1971 i think.


----------



## MrsPOP

I had the MMR, I remember getting my booster at aged 11 and I actually have had both measles and rubella. Yet my 8 month old daughter caught measles, go figure!

I unfortunately didn't have breast feeding to protect my daughter (good LordI wish I did but that's a whole other PND-fest thread).

So given that I've had all the protection I can (both 'natural' and 'unnatural') from measles...my daughter contracted it.

I'm sure that's not an isolated occurrence.


----------



## Pramaholic86

What exactly does research consist of, googling? 'research' always seems to consist of google (the good old non entities again) and government conspiracy theories. Hardly reliable?


----------



## MrsPOP

Haha, Dr Google got his credentials off the Internet!


----------



## BabyBoo36

Yey, the llamas are back!!!!

I will be vaccinating, that's just my choice based on my own reading x


----------



## lisa1980

Pramaholic86 said:


> What exactly does research consist of, googling? 'research' always seems to consist of google (the good old non entities again) and government conspiracy theories. Hardly reliable?

That's exactly what worries me. 

Genuine medical issues excepted, it's just too important an issue for parents to be basing their decisions on anecdotal 'evidence' or un-verified, poorly referenced and researched 'studies' found via google, or on websites that clearly have biased interests in the first place.

I don't understand this weird idea that the medical profession and science in general are all in some conspiracy to harm people's children...? :shrug:

Most of the profession (and I concede there are _some_ who give dodgy advice) only want the best for any child they see and give their advice based on the best possible research available, with no ulterior motives or conflict of interests, unlike many of the sources found via the web.

Noone can force you to do anything, but it's beyond me why anyone would base their decision on _possible_ harm that _might_ come from something in the vaccine versus _definite_ harm that _can_ come from the disease....?


----------



## sequeena

MrsPOP said:


> I had the MMR, I remember getting my booster at aged 11 and I actually have had both measles and rubella. Yet my 8 month old daughter caught measles, go figure!
> 
> I unfortunately didn't have breast feeding to protect my daughter (good LordI wish I did but that's a whole other PND-fest thread).
> 
> So given that I've had all the protection I can (both 'natural' and 'unnatural') from measles...my daughter contracted it.
> 
> I'm sure that's not an isolated occurrence.

I seriously doubt breast feeding would have stopped Alice catching measles.

If that's the case Thomas should never had caught the infection that made him so ill at 2 weeks.


----------



## Skadi

I got the MMR and I was FF. By all accounts I should be fat and diseased from the formula and autistic from the vaccinations. lol Guess I escaped that one! I also never got anything worse than the stomach flu.

Keira has gotten all her normal vaccinations plus RSV since she is a preemie. I think it is frightening she might come into contact with other babies or children who have not been vaccinated since she is premature and much much much more at risk of getting seriously ill. Thankfully in Ontario, immunization is required to attend school and daycare.


----------



## Pramaholic86

lisa1980 said:


> Then goverment brainwashing has clearly been sucessful in your case :thumbup:
> 
> Now if you'll excuse me, I am off to research the millenium bug, 2012 and convince myself I have every disease under the sun...
> 
> :haha:


----------



## pinklightbulb

Did everyone here get their bloods done in pregnancy to test for antibodies for all these things? I did. The only thing I wasn't immune to was Hep B and I refused it. I was immune to MMR, so would have passed this onto Eamon, as I BF for 11mo, is this correct? The Australian guidelines do say if you are going to delay vaxing that BF is very important. I was also under the impression that babies who BF get some immunities from their mothers, from my GP, who knew I was delaying and didn't see a problem with it as E was exclusively BF. Is this wrong or right? I keep seeing it poo-poo'd in this thread, and then brought up and verified again lol, so want to know the actual truth? Does someone know it?
ETA I realize whatever immunity I would give would only last so long as I BF, not after.


----------



## MrsPOP

lisa1980 said:


> Pramaholic86 said:
> 
> 
> I don't understand this weird idea that the medical profession and science in general are all in some conspiracy to harm people's children...? :shrug:
> 
> Most of the profession (and I concede there are _some_ who give dodgy advice) only want the best for any child they see and give their advice based on the best possible research available, with no ulterior motives or conflict of interests, unlike many of the sources found via the web.
> 
> This is what makes is sometimes extremely hard to be a medical professional and a BnB member. Every day I see posts about how Doctors are all idiots/stupid/evil whatever and its so frustrating. Yes there are *some* bad Doctors but as one who has worked damn hard since I qualified to do my best for my patients its a kick in the face.
> 
> And also very frustrating when people are given or read dodgy medical 'advice' either on here or on Dr Google and when you try to point out the dodginess you get shouted at :dohh:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sequeena said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MrsPOP said:
> 
> 
> I had the MMR, I remember getting my booster at aged 11 and I actually have had both measles and rubella. Yet my 8 month old daughter caught measles, go figure!
> 
> I unfortunately didn't have breast feeding to protect my daughter (good LordI wish I did but that's a whole other PND-fest thread).
> 
> So given that I've had all the protection I can (both 'natural' and 'unnatural') from measles...my daughter contracted it.
> 
> I'm sure that's not an isolated occurrence.Click to expand...
> 
> I seriously doubt breast feeding would have stopped Alice catching measles.
> 
> If that's the case Thomas should never had caught the infection that made him so ill at 2 weeks.Click to expand...
> 
> No I know hon, someone was suggesting that people non-vaxxing didnt lead to Alice contracting measles. :flower:Click to expand...


----------



## sequeena

Ahhhh :dohh: ignore me been a long night and day!


----------



## TattiesMum

Tracie87 said:


> Really? im older and iv had my MMR. In fact i was offered it again lol

That's wierd ... I wonder if it was dependant on area?

Edited ... :doh: maybe I'm thinking of the hibb vaccine .... it's been a long day :blush: :haha:


----------



## deafgal

I think it is more of unable to prove it is safe. It's hard to test these things


----------



## jenniferttc1

EDIT: OMG im so sleep deprived! Wrong thread. :haha:


----------



## Pramaholic86

Mrs pop, do you get patients who've self diagnosed from google? For example, read a list of generic symptoms, tiredness, inability to concentrate etc etc and convinced themselves they've got madeupitis where the only cure is to buy these expensive natural suplements to 'cure' it.. Off to the gp and tell them they are suffering from madeupitis and demand to be treated..??


----------



## tommyg

Pram you almost had me going off to google what the heck is madeupitis!!!
Before I had a good go at getting my dizzy brain to remember the spelling.

Re the MMR and dates it was introduced into the UK in 1988 going by Brooks Uni.https://www.brookes.ac.uk/student/services/health/mmr.html


Anybody watching sportrelief? My quote of the day "Prevention is better than Cure" as the were trying to purswade people to part with some cash to help fund vaccines.


----------



## Leopard

TattiesMum said:


> roomaloo said:
> 
> 
> The MMR is given at a year old because you should have natural immunity to it until then (have a look on the NHS website, it tells you this) else they'd give it earlier. So no one is putting her child who is 'too young to have MMR' at risk.
> 
> Also, for those reluctant to give shots cos of the ingredients it's all very well saying that aluminium etc is naturally occurring in food - yes it is, but it goes through the digestive system and a very small amount gets into the blood stream. Not injected straight into the blood stream where you get the full impact of it all.
> 
> In the same way that a natural immune response happens when it enters through your mouth/nose, not direct to the bloodstream.
> 
> A baby will only have short term and limited natural immunity if he/she has been able to 'inherit' those antibodies from their Mother during pregnancy ...
> 
> If the Mother is not of an age to have been given the MMR (which only came out in 1991 - my eldest who was born in '89 wasn't offered it) and has never had the disease then where is this magical 'natural immunity' to come from? :shrug:
> 
> I also don't get the whole 'natural immune response' thing ... isn't that just essentially saying that you want your child to gain immunity to diseases the hard way - by getting the disease?
> 
> And if so, then why bother sterilising bottles/dummies/feeding utensils or using anti-bacterial wipes/sprays/etc ... surely it would be better to not bother and just let the child get ill so that it strengthens their natural immune response?Click to expand...

I just had to reply to this. With regards to some illnesses I am quite okay with LO getting them (chicken pox, influenza etc) it does not bother me in the slightest with regards to those type of viruses. We don't sterilize because in my opinion; a few germs is a good thing, it helps build up those immunities that children need. We also don't use anti-bacterial wipes or sprays, we prefer to use natural citrus acid (home made) cleaning products. 

Bloody bubble wrapped society I swear.


----------



## Leopard

pinklightbulb said:


> Did everyone here get their bloods done in pregnancy to test for antibodies for all these things? I did. The only thing I wasn't immune to was Hep B and I refused it. I was immune to MMR, so would have passed this onto Eamon, as I BF for 11mo, is this correct? The Australian guidelines do say if you are going to delay vaxing that BF is very important. I was also under the impression that babies who BF get some immunities from their mothers, from my GP, who knew I was delaying and didn't see a problem with it as E was exclusively BF. Is this wrong or right? I keep seeing it poo-poo'd in this thread, and then brought up and verified again lol, so want to know the actual truth? Does someone know it?
> ETA I realize whatever immunity I would give would only last so long as I BF, not after.

I had to have the rubella booster after LO was born, my other immunities are tip top, and I never even had the previous boosters I was supposed to. :happydance:


----------



## MrsPOP

Pramaholic, I often get people coming in with Daily Mail clippings demanding to know why they arent given this amazing 'wonder drug' that will cure them and accuse me of not giving it to them because it costs too much when in fact its hasnt even been in human trials yet and might make them grow another bumhole or something :haha:

Or people who insist that their *slightly* elevated serum rhubarb is the reason why they are morbidly obese and cannot lose weight when its the fact they dont get off their backsides to exercise and eat crap (studiously ignoring the fact Ive eaten a lot of chocolate hobnobs today)...

Tommyg I was watching it before and automatically thought of this thread when they were saying prevention is better than cure. That section with John Bishop was heartbreaking, all for the sake of the cost of a cup of coffee for a vaccine that could save children's lives :cry:

(PS. There is no such thing as a serum rhubarb btw :haha: it was the phrase an old teacher of mine used to describe useless blood tests that had no effect on the management of patients)


----------



## MrsPOP

Leopard FYI Influenza can kill and I have seen it happen :(


----------



## tommyg

MrsPOP said:


> Leopard FYI Influenza can kill and I have seen it happen :(

Leopard I was just going to say the problem with influenza is people think its the same as the common cold which trust me its not. 

It kicked of with a raging temperture, followed by being stuck to the sofa for 3days before the pumonia kicked in. I made a Docs appointment on the Monday for the Tuesday and I was so close to cancelling because I was too tired and lethargic to go. I was thinking it's just a combination of the common cold, but without the normal runny nose and sore throat, and being heavly pregnant. Thank God my mum decided to come over she called my Doc out. Who in turn was spot on sending me to hospital.


----------



## qpaulina42

Leopard said:


> TattiesMum said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> roomaloo said:
> 
> 
> The MMR is given at a year old because you should have natural immunity to it until then (have a look on the NHS website, it tells you this) else they'd give it earlier. So no one is putting her child who is 'too young to have MMR' at risk.
> 
> Also, for those reluctant to give shots cos of the ingredients it's all very well saying that aluminium etc is naturally occurring in food - yes it is, but it goes through the digestive system and a very small amount gets into the blood stream. Not injected straight into the blood stream where you get the full impact of it all.
> 
> In the same way that a natural immune response happens when it enters through your mouth/nose, not direct to the bloodstream.
> 
> A baby will only have short term and limited natural immunity if he/she has been able to 'inherit' those antibodies from their Mother during pregnancy ...
> 
> If the Mother is not of an age to have been given the MMR (which only came out in 1991 - my eldest who was born in '89 wasn't offered it) and has never had the disease then where is this magical 'natural immunity' to come from? :shrug:
> 
> I also don't get the whole 'natural immune response' thing ... isn't that just essentially saying that you want your child to gain immunity to diseases the hard way - by getting the disease?
> 
> And if so, then why bother sterilising bottles/dummies/feeding utensils or using anti-bacterial wipes/sprays/etc ... surely it would be better to not bother and just let the child get ill so that it strengthens their natural immune response?Click to expand...
> 
> I just had to reply to this. With regards to some illnesses I am quite okay with LO getting them (chicken pox, influenza etc) it does not bother me in the slightest with regards to those type of viruses. We don't sterilize because in my opinion; a few germs is a good thing, it helps build up those immunities that children need. We also don't use anti-bacterial wipes or sprays, we prefer to use natural citrus acid (home made) cleaning products.
> 
> Bloody bubble wrapped society I swear.Click to expand...

I'm with you on the germ thing but not so much with the flu. Kids can die from it.


----------



## pinklightbulb

Still waiting to see if this BF/natural immunity thing has any truth to it. I want to know because L won't be done when he is born either. I thought E was protected by me as I BF (and yes my GP did tell me that, so did the CHN that I took him to.) So if it's wrong, why are GPs still saying it and who do I yell at for giving me misinformation?


----------



## blhanson1

x


----------



## pinklightbulb

:sick: I could've been happier not knowing that... but in a way I'm glad I do anyway...


----------



## feedindy

Some people who don't vaccinate are afraid of the ingredients, or that they are carcinogenic. 

But really you can't get away from things that are potentially carcinogenic, and you can't get away from chemicals in the world. Chemicals are everywhere. It is in the paint on our living room walls, in our foods (just look at the ingredients in almost anything), in cosmetics, in the air we breathe. If you think you can hide by using organic products and living "naturally", you are mistaken. Hell, if you lived in a log cabin in the woods and ate food off a fire, well guess what... grilled food can be carcinogenic and radon is emitted from some areas of earth (In my town we are all required to have radon pumps installed at home to fix this problem:haha:)Woohoo we are all dying then.


----------



## Skadi

blhanson1 said:


> Has anyone looked at the ingredients listed in common vaccines? This is straight from the CDC. I'm not making this up.

So? What exactly do you want them to grow the viral strains in, Peanut Butter and Oreos? Most of what you highlighted are the growth media.


----------



## blhanson1

x


----------



## blhanson1

x


----------



## Skadi

blhanson1 said:


> You're absolutely right. But I do feel disconcerted that the media is made of human or even primate cells. Surely there is some other organic medium that is not a biproduct of our species? :shrug:

They can use chicken eggs as the growth medium but that causes allergen worries. 

Here is an educational article on the ingredients in vaccines.

https://pediatrics.about.com/od/immunizations/a/0608_vac_aditvs.htm



> Some, such as aluminum salts, help the vaccine to work better. Other additives, such as human serum albumin, help stabilize live viruses in the vaccine. And others, such as formaldehyde, antibiotics, egg proteins and yeast proteins, are left over in residual amounts from the way that vaccines are made.
> 
> Formaldehyde? Why is formaldehyde in the vaccines that we give our children?
> 
> *Formaldehyde* is present in some of the vaccines on the childhood immunization schedule, including the flu shot, polio vaccine and DTaP vaccine, because it *works to eliminate the harmful effects of these bacterial toxins and makes the viruses unable to replicate or reproduce themselves. The very small amount of formaldehyde that is left over in the vaccines that are given to kids is less than the amount naturally found in children* and much less than that amount safely given to animals in research studies.


----------



## Aidan's Mummy

blhanson1 said:


> Has anyone looked at the ingredients listed in common vaccines? This is straight from the CDC. I'm not making this up.
> 
> MMR (MMR-II)
> vitamins, amino acids, *fetal bovine serum*, sucrose, sodium phosphate, glutamate, *recombinant human albumin*, neomycin, sorbitol, hydrolyzed gelatin, *chick embryo cell culture*, WI-38 *human diploid lung fibroblasts*
> December, 2010
> 
> Varicella/Chicken Pox (Varivax)
> sucrose, phosphate, glutamate, gelatin, *monosodium L-glutamate*, sodium phosphate dibasic, potassium phosphate monobasic, potassium chloride, sodium phosphate monobasic, *EDTA*, residual components of MRC-5 cells including DNA and protein, neomycin, *fetal bovine serum*, * human diploid cell cultures*
> August, 2011
> 
> Polio (IPV  Ipol)
> 2-phenoxyethanol, *formaldehyde*, neomycin, streptomycin, polymyxin B, *monkey kidney cells, *Eagle MEM modified medium, *calf serum protein*
> December, 2005
> 
> This is just a sampling...not to mention if you look up the MSDS for the chemicals...the chemicals used a preservatives in vaccines being pumped into children are know cytotoxins, damaging to reproductive organs and fertility, carcinogens, mutagens, etc...

And have you seen the ingrediants of the drugs used to treat a disease that is vaccinated against? Far more chemicals and very agressive drugs. x


----------



## MrsPOP

Pink lightbulb I've been trying to look up the whole BF immunity thing and a lot of the articles I've read are from 'natural' forums/magazines and not many credible scientific journals. Ive not managed to do a lot of research as my LO has decided to start cruising but I'm trying to find more credible info.

From what I vaguely remember BF provides *some* passive natural immunity to infections until baby can produce their own antibodies.


----------



## Aidan's Mummy

MrsPOP said:


> I had the MMR, I remember getting my booster at aged 11 and I actually have had both measles and rubella. Yet my 8 month old daughter caught measles, go figure!
> 
> I unfortunately didn't have breast feeding to protect my daughter (good LordI wish I did but that's a whole other PND-fest thread).
> 
> So given that I've had all the protection I can (both 'natural' and 'unnatural') from measles...my daughter contracted it.
> 
> I'm sure that's not an isolated occurrence.

How is she doing hun? x


----------



## tommyg

Go Alice!

Just me but I can't stop thinking about those poor Seria Leone mums 1 in 5 babys will die before their 5 th birthday because of a lack of vaccines.

I can see sport relief getting another tenner yet.

Thank god we live in countries where we have vaccinates.


----------



## My_First

Skadi said:


> blhanson1 said:
> 
> 
> You're absolutely right. But I do feel disconcerted that the media is made of human or even primate cells. Surely there is some other organic medium that is not a biproduct of our species? :shrug:
> 
> They can use chicken eggs as the growth medium but that causes allergen worries.
> 
> Here is an educational article on the ingredients in vaccines.
> 
> https://pediatrics.about.com/od/immunizations/a/0608_vac_aditvs.htm
> 
> 
> 
> Some, such as aluminum salts, help the vaccine to work better. Other additives, such as human serum albumin, help stabilize live viruses in the vaccine. And others, such as formaldehyde, antibiotics, egg proteins and yeast proteins, are left over in residual amounts from the way that vaccines are made.
> 
> Formaldehyde? Why is formaldehyde in the vaccines that we give our children?
> 
> *Formaldehyde* is present in some of the vaccines on the childhood immunization schedule, including the flu shot, polio vaccine and DTaP vaccine, because it *works to eliminate the harmful effects of these bacterial toxins and makes the viruses unable to replicate or reproduce themselves. The very small amount of formaldehyde that is left over in the vaccines that are given to kids is less than the amount naturally found in children* and much less than that amount safely given to animals in research studies.Click to expand...Click to expand...

Exactly this, good article, thank you! Those that bang on about the toxins that are in vaccines, there are in lower levels that occur naturally in the body/environment and therefore pose no risk. Its frustrating when people take things out of context, it contains arsenic or formaldehyde etc. which as a 'Daily Fail' headline sounds life threatening, but these quantities are so, so low, that we encounter them anyway, vaccine or not.

Its a bit like Xrays I guess. We are exposed to radiation, for them, but in such a minisule amount that people see it as more good than harm...


----------



## x_Rainbow_x

Dare i be the one to say i dont give a flying pigs poo what is in that vaccines as long as it keeps my daughter safe and protects her as much as they can?


----------



## MrsPOP

Alice is doing really well thanks Aidan's Mummy, she's a lot better now thank goodness and she had her 8 month check yesterday with the HV who was astonished at her progress :thumbup:


----------



## Loui1001

MrsPOP said:


> Alice is doing really well thanks Aidan's Mummy, she's a lot better now thank goodness and she had her 8 month check yesterday with the HV who was astonished at her progress :thumbup:

That's great news :hugs:


----------



## Ozzieshunni

:happydance: yay for heart babies!


----------



## Aidan's Mummy

MrsPOP said:


> Alice is doing really well thanks Aidan's Mummy, she's a lot better now thank goodness and she had her 8 month check yesterday with the HV who was astonished at her progress :thumbup:

brilliant news hun :hugs: x


----------



## lisa1980

I'm glad Alice is doing well mrsPOP. I can't imagine how scary it all must have been for you :hugs:

Re the list of ingredients in the vaccines: honestly, find me something that _isn't_ carcinogenic! I'm exaggerating obviously but you can find studies linking almost anything to cancer. Strawberries (organic btw) was a particular favourite :winkwink:. BBQ meat, most medicines (including all those used to treat the diseases mentioned, as Austin's mummy said), UV light, the list goes on and on.

Again, I still don't get the furore over something that _may_ cause cancer in many years (as may almost EVERYTHING) versus diseases that _definitely_ can kill or seriously damage your child...:shrug:

I know which I'd choose :flower:


----------



## BabyBoo36

Go Alice!

Having sat and broke my heart at "Sports Relief" last night, its reiterated to me that I will do everything possible to keep my child safe and well, and for me, that includes vaccines. There were children on there dying from entirely preventable diseases which vaccines could help and we're lucky enough to have access to them. Watching that father beg God to take him instead of his 2 year old son (the boy died) just broke my heart.


----------



## feedindy

Tracie87 said:


> Dare i be the one to say i dont give a flying pigs poo what is in that vaccines as long as it keeps my daughter safe and protects her as much as they can?

I don't care either. They could put cow turds and bubble gum in them but as long as they keep making them as safe and effective as they are, I am happy.


----------



## pinklightbulb

Thank you mrsPOP :flower:


----------



## cissyhope

lisa1980 said:


> I'm glad Alice is doing well mrsPOP. I can't imagine how scary it all must have been for you :hugs:
> 
> Re the list of ingredients in the vaccines: honestly, find me something that _isn't_ carcinogenic! I'm exaggerating obviously but you can find studies linking almost anything to cancer. Strawberries (organic btw) was a particular favourite :winkwink:. BBQ meat, most medicines (including all those used to treat the diseases mentioned, as Austin's mummy said), UV light, the list goes on and on.
> 
> Again, I still don't get the furore over something that _may_ cause cancer in many years (as may almost EVERYTHING) versus diseases that _definitely_ can kill or seriously damage your child...:shrug:
> 
> I know which I'd choose :flower:

 There is a link with cancer to organic strawberries?! where have you heard this? iv heard the others that you have quoted but not organic strawberries?


----------



## lisa1980

Oh it was a favourite anecdotal story used a lot by my professor when I was at med school due to some study where rats ate twice their body-weight of them or something but I'm sure it's rubbish! :winkwink:

Just using it as an example that you can find a 'study' claiming almost anything is carcinogenic if you ask Dr Google :haha:

I may be a bit slapdash but I try to stay away from the baddies with irrefutable evidence (smoking, sunbeds, crossing the road blindfolded, etc) and not worry too much about stuff that I can't avoid or where the pros outweigh the cons in terms of actual hard facts :flower:


----------



## Leopard

tommyg said:


> MrsPOP said:
> 
> 
> Leopard FYI Influenza can kill and I have seen it happen :(
> 
> Leopard I was just going to say the problem with influenza is people think its the same as the common cold which trust me its not.
> 
> It kicked of with a raging temperture, followed by being stuck to the sofa for 3days before the pumonia kicked in. I made a Docs appointment on the Monday for the Tuesday and I was so close to cancelling because I was too tired and lethargic to go. I was thinking it's just a combination of the common cold, but without the normal runny nose and sore throat, and being heavly pregnant. Thank God my mum decided to come over she called my Doc out. Who in turn was spot on sending me to hospital.Click to expand...

I just want to say I am well ware of what the flu is. I get it once a year followed by a severe chest infection.


----------



## MrsPOP

I'm sure you are well aware Leopard of what flu is so I'm sure you are well aware that it can kill.


----------



## steph.

If you are aware of what influenza is, why would you be ok with Kezzy getting it????


----------



## tommyg

Leopard said:


> tommyg said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MrsPOP said:
> 
> 
> Leopard FYI Influenza can kill and I have seen it happen :(
> 
> Leopard I was just going to say the problem with influenza is people think its the same as the common cold which trust me its not.
> 
> It kicked of with a raging temperture, followed by being stuck to the sofa for 3days before the pumonia kicked in. I made a Docs appointment on the Monday for the Tuesday and I was so close to cancelling because I was too tired and lethargic to go. I was thinking it's just a combination of the common cold, but without the normal runny nose and sore throat, and being heavly pregnant. Thank God my mum decided to come over she called my Doc out. Who in turn was spot on sending me to hospital.Click to expand...
> 
> I just want to say I am well ware of what the flu is. I get it once a year followed by a severe chest infection.Click to expand...

If you know it can kill why are you ok with your LO getting it? If you get it every year and a chest infection why do you not consider the vacine for yourself too?


----------



## Vrinda

I will not be getting the flu vaccine, its most likely ineffective as the virus mutates and many other reasons.

I havent been sick much, neither to I get cold often, I also believe in healthy lifestyle and healthy diet and nutrition.

I do applaud medical science for making such great advances but till now there is really no cure for common cold.

I am totally okay with someone getting flu vaccines, its their decision based on their circumstance and lifestyle or medical history etc.

Regarding " google research " well I would not totally rely on it without verifying the source etc but its one of the things in IT age, we can take advantage of information of online resources otherwise, I will not be on BnB in the first place. 
It does not mean that I am not reading books by experts on the subject or talking to specialists . I never said its a replacement for it.


----------



## Mooshie

"normal" healthy people shouldn't need the flu vaccine, you should be able to fight off the virus by yourself. Ok, you will feel like death warned up but you, in theory, should be able to fight it off.

The flu vaccine is aimed at those with a comprimised immune system, chronic illnesses or the elderly for instance, who would not have the strength or immune system to fight it. These are the people that flu kills.


----------



## My_First

Mooshie said:


> "normal" healthy people shouldn't need the flu vaccine, you should be able to fight off the virus by yourself. Ok, you will feel like death warned up but you, in theory, should be able to fight it off.
> 
> The flu vaccine is aimed at those with a comprimised immune system, chronic illnesses or the elderly for instance, who would not have the strength or immune system to fight it. These are the people that flu kills.

Exactly this! Hence it is offered to pregnant women, whose immune systems are supressed....


----------



## Mooshie

My_First said:


> Mooshie said:
> 
> 
> "normal" healthy people shouldn't need the flu vaccine, you should be able to fight off the virus by yourself. Ok, you will feel like death warned up but you, in theory, should be able to fight it off.
> 
> The flu vaccine is aimed at those with a comprimised immune system, chronic illnesses or the elderly for instance, who would not have the strength or immune system to fight it. These are the people that flu kills.
> 
> Exactly this! Hence it is offered to pregnant women, whose immune systems are supressed....Click to expand...

And pregnant women! I forgot about them!


----------



## Pramaholic86

Vrinda said:


> Regarding " google research " well I would not totally rely on it without verifying the source etc but its one of the things in IT age, we can take advantage of information of online resources otherwise, I will not be on BnB in the first place.
> It does not mean that I am not reading books by experts on the subject or talking to specialists doctors. I never said its a replacement for it.

What do the experts and doctors on the other side of the fence say out of interest? I'm asking because I don't think I've heard of a doctor advising against immunising where possible (genuine question)
I'm wary of google research, generally, BnB is mum to mum advice/opinion, no 'experts', financial insentives, scaremongering etc..


----------



## tommyg

Well you learn something new every day I didn't know pregnant women had a suppressed imune system

Contraversy on here is a huge chunk of the reason why I didn't get the flu jab. 

I went to the Docs on the Thursday 30th of December because of thrush (nice). My Doc was sorted me out and suggested the flu jab her words "I really think you should get it, but I don't want to give it to you before a 4 day holiday weekend incase you react, so go and have a think!" I'd more or less made up my mind to get it before I left the Docs and having MW appointment on the Friday 7th and Doc agreed I should get it done then. 

I took ill on Thursday the 6th so just a week after seeing the Doc and was hospitalised for a week on the Tuesday after that. The Thursday night I was south of the border and phone NHS Direct told them "I'm 35 weeks pregnant and got a really high temperature" dumb question of the year "have you got a swollen abdomen" but that's another story. I was told to take 2 parocetomal and see how you are in the morning.

Thank god I felt too rotten to go to my antenatal class that I was ment to go to on Friday the 7th too! How shite would I feel if I'd passed it on and somebody wasn't so lucky.


----------



## Eve

I've never had a flu shot, and my kids haven't either. My grandparents do, and my mom as well as brother and SIL and every one of them fell quite ill afterwards. If my children weren't well then I would obviously consider it but I have not had any good reasons to get it as of yet.


----------



## Leopard

tommyg said:


> Leopard said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tommyg said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MrsPOP said:
> 
> 
> Leopard FYI Influenza can kill and I have seen it happen :(
> 
> Leopard I was just going to say the problem with influenza is people think its the same as the common cold which trust me its not.
> 
> It kicked of with a raging temperture, followed by being stuck to the sofa for 3days before the pumonia kicked in. I made a Docs appointment on the Monday for the Tuesday and I was so close to cancelling because I was too tired and lethargic to go. I was thinking it's just a combination of the common cold, but without the normal runny nose and sore throat, and being heavly pregnant. Thank God my mum decided to come over she called my Doc out. Who in turn was spot on sending me to hospital.Click to expand...
> 
> I just want to say I am well ware of what the flu is. I get it once a year followed by a severe chest infection.Click to expand...
> 
> If you know it can kill why are you ok with your LO getting it? If you get it every year and a chest infection why do you not consider the vacine for yourself too?Click to expand...

The vaccine only covers one or two strains; at any given time there are 4 different strains going through town. No one has died locally from catching the flu; not even the swine flu. If it builds her immunity than it is a good thing, I may not like the fact that to get that life long immunity she needs to be sick; but it's better than pumping her blood full of toxins.


----------



## Skadi

Vrinda said:


> I do applaud medical science for making such great advances but till now there is really no cure for common cold.

Really?

https://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2011/antiviral-0810.html



> In a paper published July 27 in the journal PLoS One, the researchers tested their drug against 15 viruses, and found *it was effective against all of them  including rhinoviruses that cause the common cold*, H1N1 influenza, a stomach virus, a polio virus, dengue fever and several other types of hemorrhagic fever.


----------



## BabyBoo36

I guess this is where we're all different, as I'd rather "pump my child's blood" full of a small amount of toxin than risk her catching an illness that could make her unwell or kill her.


----------



## deafgal

my son gets the flu shots because a simple cold gives him a full blown asthma attack and even to the point that he had to stay at the hospital for three days on oxygen .although, he did recently got the flu shot the normal way when this happened instead of spacing them out so I do wonder if we spaced them out, would he be fine? we spaced them out because he was tested positive for egg allergies-skin,blood, etc. If it happened again within the same week he got the flu shot, then I will blame it on the shots)

I , on the other hand, do not get flu shots and don't ever remember getting the flu


----------



## Eve

Are there any cancer causing toxins (any level) in ANY vaccines we give our childre?

Have we tested all toxins in vaccines on the human body? 

What level is safe and has NO risk of cancer or other long term health issues?


----------



## Vrinda

Eve, I believe that is a very difficult question. Vaccines havent been around much. And regarding testing on animals most of the times is irrelevant for human cells therefore I am a bit skeptical to a degree, about the whole thing.


----------



## Eve

Thats what I worry about. I know they do work to a degree obviously, and I know we do not glow green from them lol but I just worry... I mean shit, organic is a big thing now. We worry about what they eat, drink etc... we should really worry about everything else we are putting in their body.


----------



## Pramaholic86

BabyBoo36 said:


> I guess this is where we're all different, as I'd rather "pump my child's blood" full of a small amount of toxin than risk her catching an illness that could make her unwell or kill her.

This, an should my child contract a life threatening illness I'd be more than happy for doctors to pump her blood full of toxins to try and make her better..!


----------



## Eve

Well of course... ^^ As would I.


----------



## Pramaholic86

Eve said:


> Well of course... ^^ As would I.

But not to try to prevent it happening in the first place? :shrug:


----------



## Quackquack99

Pramaholic86 said:


> Eve said:
> 
> 
> Well of course... ^^ As would I.
> 
> But not to try to prevent it happening in the first place? :shrug:Click to expand...

I agree. I'm sure the drugs used to treat the illnesses contain far more toxins than the vaccines.


----------



## Eve

I vaccinate! I just question them, I worry about what is in them for petes sake, what is seriously wrong with that? I did a lot to keep her healthy, and do my best to prevent certain chemicals going in her body (only antibiotics once for pneumonia)
That is the only illness she has had in over 2 years. I've been sick, we've all been throwing up and crapping our butts off and she hasn't got it... not from vaccines mind you, but from a healthy immune system in general. I made sure I breastfed, made sure not to wean early etc... I am vaccinating selectively and delayed (which most doctors will say is perfectly fine) and I am educating myself on the many things that can have a big or small impact on my daughters health. I make sure she has lots of healthy foods and buy organic when I can. I am simply sticking up for those who do their real research (not scaremongering sites and bull poop) and decide to not vaccinate or do so selectively. I see nothing wrong with making educated choices for our children and their health. Just because someone decides not to vaccinate, doesn't make them a bad or careless parent.


----------



## pinklightbulb

My OH loves our boy just as much as any vaxing parent :shrug:. He isn't a bad or careless parent at all. He just did not want to take the chance of something happening to him, whether the MMR caused his first son's issues or not-- it's never been proven not to either and OH would rather live with the fact that E is not protected against illnesses that aren't even around here than watch another of his sons suffer for being vaxed. 
No, I don't understand his POV entierly because I'm not him and wasn't there when his first boy was done. But does it mean I should write it off? Of course not. It gave my OH greater peace of mind not vaxing than vaxing with what he saw as a very real risk that something would happen to his second son if he allowed it.
So since it was more important to OH that E was not done until he was older than it was to me to get him done on time... that is how we did it. Compromising. I don't want E never done. I want to start him now he is 24 months, and am looking for a doctor I feel comfortable with now to reassure me that indeed we are doing the right thing by beginning to vax him.


----------



## MonstHer

Does anyone know information regarding the chickenpox vaccine in regards to shingles?
Any legitimate articles or anyone who is in healthcare know about it?
I asked my pediatrician and physician and neither of them know.


----------



## pinklightbulb

I don't know, that's one vax I won't give E, see no need for it personally.


----------



## MrsPOP

What do you mean chickenpox vaccine in regards to shingles?

You can only have shingles if you've had chickenpox in the past.


----------



## MonstHer

So, does getting the chickenpox vaccine prevent shingles?


----------



## MrsPOP

The chickenpox vaccine prevents chickenpox.

The chickenpox virus lies dormant in the nervous system and when it is reactivated, the person has shingles.

So the chickenpox vaccine indirectly protects against singles by protecting against chickenpox.

That reminds me, I need to get my chickenpox vaccine sorted. My immunity ran out before I was pregnant so I need to get it again. Chickenpox in an adult can be really serious.


----------



## Ozzieshunni

I had the chicken pox as a child. Does that still mean I'm immune?


----------



## Eve

I had CP bad as a child... terrible... everywhere... I don't remember though, this is what mum tells me. 

Mark had shingles a few years back on his hip. We didn't know what it was but he was in so much pain and felt terrible :( I wasn't allowed to have any direct contact with the area etc... and his medication cost a fortune!


----------



## MonstHer

Shingles is horrible!
I get it everytime something happens whether it be an illness, lack of sleep over a few days, stress, pregnancy, or whatever. 
Plus post-herpatic nerve pain makes me want to stab myself in the face to end the suffering.
I only had a very mild case of chicken pox as a child too, so I don't understand this.
If I can prevent my baby from possible shingles, she will get the CP vaccine.


----------



## Vrinda

Ozzieshunni said:


> I had the chicken pox as a child. Does that still mean I'm immune?

 From what I read when you get the disease then the immunity should be lifelong. In case of vaccines , its not life-long. 

So I think you should be fine

:flower:


----------



## Pielette

It is possible to get chicken pox more than once. I don't know the statistics or anything, think it's reasonably rare but it does happen.


----------



## deafgal

ozzie, you are more likely get the shingles when you get older. A lot of elders I worked with in the nursing homes (and grandparents) developed shingles. I did read that getting vaccinations for chicken pox will lessen the chance of getting shingles in the future.


----------



## Ozzieshunni

deafgal said:


> ozzie, you are more likely get the shingles when you get older. A lot of elders I worked with in the nursing homes (and grandparents) developed shingles. I did read that getting vaccinations for chicken pox will lessen the chance of getting shingles in the future.

Joy.


----------



## deafgal

hey, you asked :) there is a vaccination for shingles too (not the chicken pox vaccination) to lessen your chance as well but I don't know how much it will help


----------



## Wildfire81

My friend was just from the north of the tropic of cancer, she was very dark skinned. When she found out she had skin cancer, she was 19, and gone by 20. She did not use any skin protection, because neither her mother or grandmother did either. They all ended up with skin cancer. I think it is a directly caused by UV rays.


----------



## Mooshie

Pielette said:


> It is possible to get chicken pox more than once. I don't know the statistics or anything, think it's reasonably rare but it does happen.

Yes, you can. My brother had it twice.


----------



## Vrinda

I just happened to read that


> once you have had chicken pox, the virus,stays inside you forever, lying dormant in nerves near the spinal cord. Stress, aging, or a weakened immune system may reactivate the virus, which can then slink along nerve tracts, causing persistent pain and nasty skin rashes&#8212;a condition known as shingles. Research suggests that widespread vaccination against chicken pox, now common in the United States, may lead to a significant increase in shingles among the elderly


----------



## MonstHer

Where did you get that Vrinda?


----------



## deafgal

I don't think they could rule that out yet as many who had the chicken pox vaccinations are still young. Unless more and more younger kids are getting the shingles.


----------



## MonstHer

Yeah, I don't get that either, since the CP vaccine hasn't been around that long.


----------



## Ozzieshunni

That's the same with any illness. It's like glandular fever. We all carry the bacteria, but when our immune system weakens, that's when it can reproduce and cause the illness.


----------



## SerenityNow

Even though the chicken pox vaccine strain can reactivate as shingles it should be a milder version of shingles since it is a milder (attenuated) strain of the virus. 

The projected increase in shingles because of widespread vaccination is in people who have had the actual wild-type infection, not people who have had the vaccine. 
The increase (or theoretical increase) is because people who have had chicken pox and are immune will no longer come into contact with the chicken pox virus. Continued exposure to the virus protects people from developing shingles. 
So far studies that have looked for an actual increase in shingles have been mixed.


----------



## My_First

MonstHer said:


> Where did you get that Vrinda?


Here https://herpesnation.blogspot.co.uk/ Middle of the page, point 8...


----------



## tu123

I have read and heard mixed about shingles and CP.

I never had the vaccine but had CP. I have had two cases of shingles, one recently after three weeks of tooth infection, surgery, etc. On my lumbar region of back.

I was worried my daughter would get CP but so far so good. I want to feel fully well before looking after LO with CP!


----------



## tu123

My_First said:


> MonstHer said:
> 
> 
> Where did you get that Vrinda?
> 
> 
> Here https://herpesnation.blogspot.co.uk/ Middle of the page, point 8...Click to expand...

That link is too out there for me:wacko:

I might take a massive homeopathy overdose in protest at some of the stuff said on there!


----------



## Ozzieshunni

This is why the internet is bad. Any whack job can post anything they want and people believe it!


----------



## My_First

tu123 said:


> My_First said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MonstHer said:
> 
> 
> Where did you get that Vrinda?
> 
> 
> Here https://herpesnation.blogspot.co.uk/ Middle of the page, point 8...Click to expand...
> 
> That link is too out there for me:wacko:
> 
> I might take a massive homeopathy overdose in protest at some of the stuff said on there!Click to expand...

:haha:


----------



## BabyBoo36

Ozzieshunni said:


> This is why the internet is bad. Any whack job can post anything they want and people believe it!

^^This! Where's this supposed "research" he talks about?


----------



## Pramaholic86

Anyone who is unconvinced by homeopathic websites here's why, apparently.

https://herpesnation.blogspot.co.uk/2008/04/why-some-people-are-afraid-of-natural.html?m=1


----------



## MrsPOP

Pramaholic86 said:


> Anyone who is unconvinced by homeopathic websites here's why, apparently.
> 
> https://herpesnation.blogspot.co.uk/2008/04/why-some-people-are-afraid-of-natural.html?m=1

Possibly THE FUNNIEST thing I have read on the Internet in my entire life!!!!!


----------



## Skadi

"It&#8217;s isn&#8217;t valid" <3 it.


----------



## MonstHer

Riiiiiight... African bush doctors know everything, eh? 
How's that working out for Africa?! :dohh:


----------



## pinklightbulb

I've never thought about shingles... how common is it?


----------



## MyTurnYet

Ozzieshunni said:


> I had the chicken pox as a child. Does that still mean I'm immune?

I believe they can test to see if you are immune. I had the test (called varicella) during routine pregnancy screening.


----------



## Vrinda

Hey, that link has got nothing to do with what I posed, but thanks for posting it and making joke about natural medicine.

FYI I quoted the link from wiki-chickenpox website.

I am okay if you decide to vaccine ( for your reasons) fine with me, thats your decision. 


Yes I was struggling with my decision with the first doctor here and the second one who is guiding us medically regarding vaccine decision. First one made difficult for us, threatened and bullied us from beginning and we ended up in hygiene department who INFORMED us that
our LO might not get into some of kindergartens IF we delay. That happened to all moms here who are non vaccinating too. In our case we just delay stil our doctor put us in same category.

Thanks everyone for your replies though. I learnt a lot from you all.

But you have no right to make fun or even calling them whack job if they are
day and night think about both sides( such as our case) on vaccination and its effect on their little bodies.

I will not be getting chicken pox or flu shots . Thats our decision. I am all for healty lifestyle and I respect people who strive to live healthy INSPITE of fast food junk and big pharma and so on people who take health for granted


Yes I never smoke, never drink alcohol, coffee, soft drinks with HCFS, do not eat at McDs, quit coke years ago,buy organic as much as we can afford, no to highly processed food, no to gmos,aspartame,hcfs and read labels for everything edible....I was thinking about posting this thread to natural parenting ( one of my favorite section of BnB) in the first place but posted here since I wanted to hear from both the sides of the vaccine decision.


----------



## Mooshie

Pramaholic86 said:


> Anyone who is unconvinced by homeopathic websites here's why, apparently.
> 
> https://herpesnation.blogspot.co.uk/2008/04/why-some-people-are-afraid-of-natural.html?m=1

That website is a joke, right?! :rofl:


----------



## Pramaholic86

Mooshie said:


> Pramaholic86 said:
> 
> 
> Anyone who is unconvinced by homeopathic websites here's why, apparently.
> 
> https://herpesnation.blogspot.co.uk/2008/04/why-some-people-are-afraid-of-natural.html?m=1
> 
> That website is a joke, right?! :rofl:Click to expand...

I don't think so? :shrug:
Perfect example of how google research can be dodgy though!


----------



## Mooshie

Pramaholic86 said:


> Mooshie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pramaholic86 said:
> 
> 
> Anyone who is unconvinced by homeopathic websites here's why, apparently.
> 
> https://herpesnation.blogspot.co.uk/2008/04/why-some-people-are-afraid-of-natural.html?m=1
> 
> That website is a joke, right?! :rofl:Click to expand...
> 
> I don't think so? :shrug:
> Perfect example of how google research can be dodgy though!Click to expand...

Oh god yeh, I wonder how many people have read it and believed it!


----------



## Loui1001

Mooshie said:


> Pramaholic86 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mooshie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pramaholic86 said:
> 
> 
> Anyone who is unconvinced by homeopathic websites here's why, apparently.
> 
> https://herpesnation.blogspot.co.uk/2008/04/why-some-people-are-afraid-of-natural.html?m=1
> 
> That website is a joke, right?! :rofl:Click to expand...
> 
> I don't think so? :shrug:
> Perfect example of how google research can be dodgy though!Click to expand...
> 
> Oh god yeh, I wonder how many people have read it and believed it!Click to expand...

I thought it was meant to be tongue in cheek - apparently not!!!!!


----------



## Mooshie

Loui1001 said:


> Mooshie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pramaholic86 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mooshie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pramaholic86 said:
> 
> 
> Anyone who is unconvinced by homeopathic websites here's why, apparently.
> 
> https://herpesnation.blogspot.co.uk/2008/04/why-some-people-are-afraid-of-natural.html?m=1
> 
> That website is a joke, right?! :rofl:Click to expand...
> 
> I don't think so? :shrug:
> Perfect example of how google research can be dodgy though!Click to expand...
> 
> Oh god yeh, I wonder how many people have read it and believed it!Click to expand...
> 
> I thought it was meant to be tongue in cheek - apparently not!!!!!Click to expand...

Oh no, I think he is deadly serious when he says people choose modern medicine over homeopathic remedies because they are racist! :rofl:


----------



## Loui1001

Mooshie said:


> Loui1001 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mooshie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pramaholic86 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mooshie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pramaholic86 said:
> 
> 
> Anyone who is unconvinced by homeopathic websites here's why, apparently.
> 
> https://herpesnation.blogspot.co.uk/2008/04/why-some-people-are-afraid-of-natural.html?m=1
> 
> That website is a joke, right?! :rofl:Click to expand...
> 
> I don't think so? :shrug:
> Perfect example of how google research can be dodgy though!Click to expand...
> 
> Oh god yeh, I wonder how many people have read it and believed it!Click to expand...
> 
> I thought it was meant to be tongue in cheek - apparently not!!!!!Click to expand...
> 
> Oh no, I think he is deadly serious when he says people choose modern medicine over homeopathic remedies because they are racist! :rofl:Click to expand...


So harsh!!!! I really was reading it waiting for a punchline. Maybe my addiction to coffee and chocolate has affected my judgement :rofl:


----------



## deafgal

There is one clinic where I live recently made a policy that they will no longer be accepting children who are not vaccinated by choice. I don't think they changed their policy either after so many complaints. They said if parents can't trust their professional opinions, then there is no point for them to keep coming.


----------



## tommyg

Ozzieshunni said:


> That's the same with any illness. It's like glandular fever. We all carry the bacteria, but when our immune system weakens, that's when it can reproduce and cause the illness.

Cheers for that info. Everyday is a school day as they say. 
Seriously I didn't know we all carry the bacteria that causes glandular fever.:thumbup:

I'm learning lots on this thread.


----------



## Ozzieshunni

deafgal said:


> There is one clinic where I live recently made a policy that they will no longer be accepting children who are not vaccinated by choice. I don't think they changed their policy either after so many complaints. They said if parents can't trust their professional opinions, then there is no point for them to keep coming.

Lots of doctors in the USA are now declining children of parents that do not vaccinate for the safety of their other patients. I read an article about it in the New York Times.


----------



## Ozzieshunni

tommyg said:


> Ozzieshunni said:
> 
> 
> That's the same with any illness. It's like glandular fever. We all carry the bacteria, but when our immune system weakens, that's when it can reproduce and cause the illness.
> 
> Cheers for that info. Everyday is a school day as they say.
> Seriously I didn't know we all carry the bacteria that causes glandular fever.:thumbup:
> 
> I'm learning lots on this thread.Click to expand...

Sorry, my brain was a bit lapse. It's actually a virus :dohh:



> Epstein Barr Virus (EBV)
> 
> EBV is a member of the Herpesviridae family of the DNA viruses. This family is responsible for shingles, cold sores, and chicken pox. It is one of the most commonly found viruses and epidemics throughout the world.[10] Contrary to common belief, EBV is not highly contagious. It can only be contracted through direct contact with an infected persons saliva. This includes kissing, coughing, sneezing, and sharing utensils, toothbrushes, drinks and lip gloss. Some evidence claims that EBV is also commonly transmitted through sexual intercourse.[11] *About 95% of the population has been exposed to this virus by the age of 40, but only 15-20% of teenagers and about 40% of adults exposed actually become infected.*[12]


----------



## tommyg

Loui1001 said:


> Mooshie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Loui1001 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mooshie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pramaholic86 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mooshie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pramaholic86 said:
> 
> 
> Anyone who is unconvinced by homeopathic websites here's why, apparently.
> 
> https://herpesnation.blogspot.co.uk/2008/04/why-some-people-are-afraid-of-natural.html?m=1
> 
> That website is a joke, right?! :rofl:Click to expand...
> 
> I don't think so? :shrug:
> Perfect example of how google research can be dodgy though!Click to expand...
> 
> Oh god yeh, I wonder how many people have read it and believed it!Click to expand...
> 
> I thought it was meant to be tongue in cheek - apparently not!!!!!Click to expand...
> 
> Oh no, I think he is deadly serious when he says people choose modern medicine over homeopathic remedies because they are racist! :rofl:Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So harsh!!!! I really was reading it waiting for a punchline. Maybe my addiction to coffee and chocolate has affected my judgement :rofl:Click to expand...

There was me thinking I didn't get it because I am a sheep baa baa baa:haha:


----------



## Eve

I have never, to this day, had a cold sore. previous partener had one, and we shared things, a childhood friend had them constantly and we used to even share gum :sick: and I haven't ever had one.


----------



## tommyg

deafgal said:


> There is one clinic where I live recently made a policy that they will no longer be accepting children who are not vaccinated by choice. I don't think they changed their policy either after so many complaints. They said if parents can't trust their professional opinions, then there is no point for them to keep coming.

That I have to say is a really fair point. I guess it also means they don't want to be dealing with the heartache of lots of sick kids that could have been prevented.


----------



## tommyg

Ozzieshunni said:


> tommyg said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ozzieshunni said:
> 
> 
> That's the same with any illness. It's like glandular fever. We all carry the bacteria, but when our immune system weakens, that's when it can reproduce and cause the illness.
> 
> Cheers for that info. Everyday is a school day as they say.
> Seriously I didn't know we all carry the bacteria that causes glandular fever.:thumbup:
> 
> I'm learning lots on this thread.Click to expand...
> 
> Sorry, my brain was a bit lapse. It's actually a virus :dohh:
> 
> 
> 
> Epstein Barr Virus (EBV)
> 
> EBV is a member of the Herpesviridae family of the DNA viruses. This family is responsible for shingles, cold sores, and chicken pox. It is one of the most commonly found viruses and epidemics throughout the world.[10] Contrary to common belief, EBV is not highly contagious. It can only be contracted through direct contact with an infected person&#8217;s saliva. This includes kissing, coughing, sneezing, and sharing utensils, toothbrushes, drinks and lip gloss. Some evidence claims that EBV is also commonly transmitted through sexual intercourse.[11] *About 95% of the population has been exposed to this virus by the age of 40, but only 15-20% of teenagers and about 40% of adults exposed actually become infected.*[12]Click to expand...Click to expand...

Glandular fever is that caused by a virus rather than a bacteria? Are you saying most of us carry the Glandular fever virus and it's unrelated to the herpes virus?

I knew most people had been exposed to the the herpes virus. I would have though that 15-20% of teenages sounds a low figure esp as most kids will have been exposed through chicken pox or is that a slightly diffrent strain of the virus. I guess cold sores are spread by sharing drinks cans etc now that is something that I've never liked doing and used to hate people asking me for a drink of my coke.:growlmad:


----------



## Eternal

Someone mentioned cold sore, I am not 100% convinced on this but I always understood that if you hadnt got one but the time you reached adult hood you were immune, although writting that down makes no sense in my mind so I probably made it up! LOL!

I spend a lot of time in news and debates and usually most debates tend to help me question my own beleifs, and re adjust my thinking, this thread makes me laugh as the arguments are shocking as why people dont vaccinate! I just dont get any of it. It does sound like a lot of conspiracey theories. 

I am a nurse, I have family, friends and neighbours who are doctors, all vaccinate their kids. The only one that we debates the flu vaccine. 

Breast feeding does give immunity, but its not 100%, you will give some protection but you wouldnt want to expose your child to it intentionally. 

The argument that our ancestors didnt get skin cancer, problems from vaccines etc, seriously? do people actually beleive that? People died very young, the avarege age people died was in their 30's! Babies died, children died, it was a common accurance, you just have to study some of their medical soultions to figure out how bad the health situation was. 

Thankfully, we discovered anti-biotics and vaccines and now the avarage age is 75!

I know thats a very simplistic view, and of course things like sanatation play a huge factor in that, but that is the kind of statements that are made in this thread.


----------



## deafgal

most of my religious friends don't vaccine because of aborted fetuses (even if it was used temporary for research purposes). Reasonable? dunno.


----------



## Natsku

deafgal said:


> most of my religious friends don't vaccine because of aborted fetuses (even if it was used temporary for research purposes). Reasonable? dunno.

I'd say its unreasonable (although I can understand it) - its unfair to impose your religious beliefs on your child at the risk of their health and others. Fair enough if there's other reasons too but if its just for religious reasons it seems wrong to me.


----------



## Vrinda

Eternal said:


> Thankfully, we discovered anti-biotics and vaccines and now the avarage age is 75!
> 
> I know thats a very simplistic view, and of course things like sanatation play a huge factor in that, but that is the kind of statements that are made in this thread.


Point taken but 75 years average age? How long have the vaccines been around ?


----------



## Ozzieshunni

75 years old isn't even the average age of death.



> The life expectancy at birth of the world is 67.2 years (65.0 years for males and 69.5 years for females) for 2005&#8211;2010, according to United Nations World Population Prospects 2006 Revision and 66.57 years (64.52 years for males and 68.76 years for females) for 2009 according to CIA World Factbook 2009. Women on average live longer than men in all countries, with the exception of Zimbabwe, Lesotho, Swaziland and Afghanistan.


----------



## MrsPOP

I remember many years ago now (over 10 in fact!) when I was attending my interviews for medical school and I was asked by an African doctor what the greatest medical discovery has been in the past 100-150 years and I originally said the discovery of the human genome and he said 'where I am from they have no need for that, can you think of anything else?' and I said introduction of widespread vaccination :thumbup:

Vaccines have been around since the 17th century Vrinda.


----------



## Ozzieshunni

I'll top that MrsPOP. Vaccinations may have been around as early as 1000AD in China!


----------



## Vrinda

Thanks MrsPOP for that quick reply :) Yes, I agree regarding the greasted medical advancements, no doubt. 
One of the things I'd like to ask my new doctor about vaccines and eradication of the diseases. I do not know of any other disease that has been eradicated ( or wiped out due to vaccination) except for smallpox. In one book that I read, its mentioned that the disease was already declining and it could have just been a coincidence along with agreeing the fact that vaccines did play some role in its declining along with sanitation, hygiene etc that improved that the actual disease got eradicated. There are many such questions we will be discussing with her.

We are mostly concerned about MMR. We are already vaccinating other ones though in splits.


----------



## Vrinda

Ozzieshunni, it seems almost every invention had stemmed from China..lol


----------



## Lil_Pixie

Why is the mmr vaccine a bigger concern than any of the others? Genuinely don't understand.

My son had his second set of jabs this morning and is currently on his blanket in the garden playing with his feet and having a very intersting conversation with our cat!


----------



## MrsPOP

Awesome Ozzi :thumbup:

Vrinda, the WHO did have polio as a target for complete eradication by 2000, they didn't achieve it though :(


----------



## MrsPOP

I think Pixie because people still think its associated with autism. Mud sticks I'm afraid, even though it's utterly ridiculous!


----------



## Vrinda

And also the hexavaccine, I see most people are concerned too along with MMR. For us, its because of the load and other reasons I already mentioned in the start

I will be discussing if I have just measles vaccine instead of MMR. If I do not find alternative, then next thing would be to delay it. I'll have to see what our doctor says.

I still do not hear much from non-vaccinating moms though here on BnB, I am just wondering if it was already discussed


----------



## Ozzieshunni

We are delaying MMR like I said, but Alex's 12 month vaccines will be delayed anyways because we'll be in the USA for three weeks including his birthday :haha:


----------



## Eternal

I stand corrected at the age :thumbup: It was simply a guess lol!

Vaccines have been around for years, but the mass use of them is surley more a recent thing, I mean they were mass used in my grandparents era, or even my mothers (not to the extent now). 

My point was meant to be exaggerated, If I state something as fact i tend to cite it, but I can give MY EXPERIENCE, I have seen children disabled and die from preventable diseases. 

We dont know if vaccines are 100% safe, but we do know the risk of these diseases, i know some people seem to think, oh its just measles, or just whooping cough, but they are serious. very serious. 

I can understand the fear, I really can, but justifying it that you are doing what is best for your child isnt the case, you are exposing your to diseases that can be avoided. To me its as simple as a car seat, I rear faced my eldest (until the twins were born and there was no way of fitting them in the car) and there is a risk that the child will break their legs, that damage could have been sereve, could have caused lasting damage, but the risk was better than the alternative of killing my child or leaving them with much more serious life long disabilities. To me its all about reducing the risk, I cant take all the risks of life away and no one is saying vaccine is 100% safe or effective, but its the best we have and its proven to reduce the risk. I would be stupid to not use something that could save my babies. 

Ultimately the more poeple who dont vaccinate and the more people who express that the numbers will grow and we WILL have a serious problem on our hands. 

As for auto-immune diseases and allegies, who said children cant be vaccinated? they are the exact ones who need it more, my mum is immuno-compromised and needs her vaccines. When I was nursing those are the people we would call up and chase up to arrange vaccines because they are the ones most at risk. I imagine you cant use any live vaccines, i am not sure there either though and I suppose it depends on how surpressed the system is, but if the child isnt in a bubble then i cannot see why they would be advised to not vaccinate. perhaps it depends on the area. 

Someone mentioned not getting the MMR again, i had it before i conceived my son, my doctor advised me to either have it or have my levels checked before TTC, as i was there I just had it done there and there. my levels were checked in my pregnancies and was fine.


----------



## Leopard

On the other side of the fence; what about children that die from _vaccinations?_


----------



## Ozzieshunni

From the CDC:



> MISCONCEPTION #4. Vaccines cause many harmful side effects, illnesses, and even death - not to mention possible long-term effects we don't even know about.
> 
> Vaccines are actually very safe, despite implications to the contrary in many anti-vaccine publications (which sometimes contain the number of reports received by VAERS, and allow the reader to infer that all of them represent genuine vaccine side-effects). Most vaccine adverse events are minor and temporary, such as a sore arm or mild fever. These can often be controlled by taking acetaminophen before or after vaccination. More serious adverse events occur rarely (on the order of one per thousands to one per millions of doses), and some are so rare that risk cannot be accurately assessed. As for vaccines causing death, again so few deaths can plausibly be attributed to vaccines that it is hard to assess the risk statistically. Of all deaths reported to VAERS between 1990 and 1992, only one is believed to be even possibly associated with a vaccine. Each death reported to VAERS is thoroughly examined to ensure that it is not related to a new vaccine-related problem, but little or no evidence suggests that vaccines have contributed to any of the reported deaths. The Institute of Medicine in its 1994 report states that the risk of death from vaccines is "extraordinarily low."

https://www.livescience.com/8948-myths-fuel-dangerous-decisions-vaccinate-children.html <----How myths cause parents not to vaccinate, leading to bigger issues.


----------



## Wiggler

I don't know if its mentioned, but as well as the usual risk groups, there are also unborn babies who are at risk from these diseases, my son was diagnosed with rubella (german measles) just over two weeks ago (he has had his MMR), I was terrified cos of course measles is a horrifying illness, I was horrified because the doctor didn't seem too worried, and went onto the NHS website, and learnt that its not a serious ilness in children, but is VERY dangerous to unborn babies, I was pregnant at the time and unfortunately lost the bby a few days later (not related as I am 100% immune to rubella, but I was still terrified) but my SIL had been in contact with my son a few days before, she was 19 weeks pregnant and we were all terrified for her, luckily everything seems ok, but I won't stop worrying until that baby is born and ok.

Where vaccinations are concerned I truly believe the advantages of being vaccinated outweigh the risks, to both my children, and the wider community.


----------



## roomaloo

Wiggler that's one of the problems with the Rubella vaccine - it's not dangerous to children but is dangerous to pregnant women (due to risk of losing the baby i think.) They need to think about giving boosters to young adults as it is getting pushed into that age group now.


----------



## Wiggler

Yea, my SIL is getting a booster once her baby is born as she came back with low immunity to rubella. x x x


----------



## Aidan's Mummy

Leopard said:


> On the other side of the fence; what about children that die from _vaccinations?_

Very rare and more children die from the diseases vaccinated against. Again it's weighing up the pros and cons. For me I would rather vaccinate my children with the small risk that something may go wrong, rather than them contract a disease and have a big chance of not surviving or having life limiting effects x


----------



## tommyg

Wriggler the chances are both you and SIL will have been given the rubella jag in your last year of primary school. If you can remember a jag that only the girls got then that is the rubella.


----------



## Wiggler

My MMR jab wasn't affective, I had it again when I was 18, and was tested in both pregnancies and both shown that I am immune. SIL doesn't know if she was jabbed or not, but has low immunity, her preggy bloods showed it up.


----------



## tommyg

Vrinda said:


> Eternal said:
> 
> 
> Thankfully, we discovered anti-biotics and vaccines and now the avarage age is 75!
> 
> I know thats a very simplistic view, and of course things like sanatation play a huge factor in that, but that is the kind of statements that are made in this thread.
> 
> 
> Point taken but 75 years average age? How long have the vaccines been around ?Click to expand...

The first recorded vaccine 1774. A wee while ago if you ask me. It was for smallpox that was eventually erradicated in 1980 3 years after the last recorded case.

https://www.thedorsetpage.com/history/smallpox/smallpox.htm

https://www.historyofvaccines.org/content/articles/disease-eradication


----------



## Eternal

roomaloo said:


> Wiggler that's one of the problems with the Rubella vaccine - it's not dangerous to children but is dangerous to pregnant women (due to risk of losing the baby i think.) They need to think about giving boosters to young adults as it is getting pushed into that age group now.

I got an MMR booster when I went to my doctor to request getting my implant out, he gave me various pre conception advise as well as suggesting the booster, which i did.


----------



## Eve

Still scares me... no matter what links are given in here it still scares me.


----------



## Pielette

Just as an aside, it has been shown that separating out the MMR and giving each one individually reduces the effectiveness of the vaccine.


----------



## milf2be

tommyg said:


> Wriggler the chances are both you and SIL will have been given the rubella jag in your last year of primary school. If you can remember a jag that only the girls got then that is the rubella.

i think its in year 9 (13-14) you get it, unless its changed in the last few years, thats when i had mine. 

the one in last year of primary is meningitis...now that one made me ILL. dont regret having it for a second though :thumbup:


----------



## Lil_Pixie

Oh god I remember the one in year 9. My mum forgot to sign the consent form so I had to consent myself. They kept telling me I could refuse if I wanted - and I REALLY wanted to! Lol my mum would gave killed me though


----------



## MrsPOP

milf2be said:


> tommyg said:
> 
> 
> Wriggler the chances are both you and SIL will have been given the rubella jag in your last year of primary school. If you can remember a jag that only the girls got then that is the rubella.
> 
> i think its in year 9 (13-14) you get it, unless its changed in the last few years, thats when i had mine.
> 
> the one in last year of primary is meningitis...now that one made me ILL. dont regret having it for a second though :thumbup:Click to expand...

Sorry but that's incorrect :flower: Rubella was given as a separate dose to girls aged 10-11 in the UK in the 90s until the kids who were on the new MMR schedule were old enough not to need that. Also some kids were given the MMR aged 11-12 (I was given it).

The jab given in year 9 (so ages 13-14) was the BCG but that's been taken off the regular vaccine schedule.

I was given a Men C vaccine aged 17 so... in 2000.

The jab given now to girls age 12-13 is the cervical cancer vaccine.

Here is a link to the NHS guide on the current vaccine schedule :thumbup:


https://www.nhs.uk/Planners/vaccinations/Pages/Vaccinationchecklist.aspx


----------



## Leopard

The cervical cancer vaccination is option and rightly so!


----------



## Vrinda

Leopard I will definitely be avoiding that vaccine I read and heard a lot things about it


> The cervical cancer vaccination is option and rightly so!


----------



## MrsPOP

All vaccines are optional Leopard, no one is forced to have them! :thumbup:


----------



## Ozzieshunni

MrsPOP said:


> All vaccines are optional Leopard, no one is forced to have them! :thumbup:

See, I kinda disagree with that. Parents that choose not to vaccinate their children are often stigmatized. For example, some doctors in the USA are refusing to take children who are unvaccinated by parental choice. So, I do kinda see the point that it is forced :shrug:


----------



## MrsPOP

Depends on your definition of forced I guess! I meant a legal obligation to have them kinda thing with official punishment if they don't.

Incidentally I agree with what the Doctors in the USA are doing.


----------



## Quackquack99

MrsPOP said:


> milf2be said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tommyg said:
> 
> 
> Wriggler the chances are both you and SIL will have been given the rubella jag in your last year of primary school. If you can remember a jag that only the girls got then that is the rubella.
> 
> i think its in year 9 (13-14) you get it, unless its changed in the last few years, thats when i had mine.
> 
> the one in last year of primary is meningitis...now that one made me ILL. dont regret having it for a second though :thumbup:Click to expand...
> 
> Sorry but that's incorrect :flower: Rubella was given as a separate dose to girls aged 10-11 in the UK in the 90s until the kids who were on the new MMR schedule were old enough not to need that. Also some kids were given the MMR aged 11-12 (I was given it).
> 
> The jab given in year 9 (so ages 13-14) was the BCG but that's been taken off the regular vaccine schedule.
> 
> I was given a Men C vaccine aged 17 so... in 2000.
> 
> The jab given now to girls age 12-13 is the cervical cancer vaccine.
> 
> Here is a link to the NHS guide on the current vaccine schedule :thumbup:
> 
> 
> https://www.nhs.uk/Planners/vaccinations/Pages/Vaccinationchecklist.aspxClick to expand...

I remember getting the men c vaccine when I was about 8.
I remember people getting the polio booster when I was about 15. But strangely enough I didn't need it.
My daughter was given the bcg vaccine at a day old and to be honest I couldn't understand why.


----------



## My_First

Personally I think the cervicial cancer vaccine is a great idea and if I had a girl i would encourage her to have it. Only because it it will aid stopping girls getting HPV. Given the huge increase in HPV, I think its a wonderful idea. That said, of course promotion of safe sex etc. is also important, however clearly that message is not getting through!


----------



## Vrinda

Ozzieshunni said:


> MrsPOP said:
> 
> 
> All vaccines are optional Leopard, no one is forced to have them! :thumbup:
> 
> See, I kinda disagree with that. Parents that choose not to vaccinate their children are often stigmatized. For example, some doctors in the USA are refusing to take children who are unvaccinated by parental choice. So, I do kinda see the point that it is forced :shrug:Click to expand...

Exactly the point of starting this thread. I do not know much about USA ( I believe some states for example California are a bit liberal in that ) but in some countries they are making it almost mandatory. I know only a few moms who do not vaccinate at all , and in our case, we are opting some and if we do not do MMR then they will do hurdles like not taking LO to kindergarten, doctors might refuse to take etc etc....This was told to us by that hygiene, preventive and social department.


----------



## Leopard

I wasn't trying to start another debate :haha:
What I meant, is that when that vaccination came out I was just at the age to get it (grade 6 or 7 I think it was), my dad let me make my own decision, so I spoke to my GP and did some research (in books :dohh: !) some of the potential side effects were terrible, so I opted out.


----------



## My_First

^^^ I know your not trying to debate it...:haha:
Its just that it demonstrates how research, that is not medical research can scaremonger people into not getting it.

Of all the 'serious effects' none have been linked to the vaccine.


----------



## Leopard

Side effects or not I would have opted out. See infertility and paraplegia were directly linked to the first vaccine; the formula has been improved now though.


----------



## Ozzieshunni

:haha: Depends where in California you go! Some parts of the state are liberal, some are so staunchly conservative it's sickening!


----------



## tommyg

milf2be said:


> tommyg said:
> 
> 
> Wriggler the chances are both you and SIL will have been given the rubella jag in your last year of primary school. If you can remember a jag that only the girls got then that is the rubella.
> 
> i think its in year 9 (13-14) you get it, unless its changed in the last few years, thats when i had mine.
> 
> the one in last year of primary is meningitis...now that one made me ILL. dont regret having it for a second though :thumbup:Click to expand...

It's possibly changed between me getting it and you rather than the other way around I'm 37.

I've definetly never had meningitis the only one given in high school was BCG for TB if I remember correctly. There was an out brake of meningitus when I was in 3rd year of high school, 1 teacher and I think 2 kids died and numerous others were hospitalised. They closed the school 3 days early for Christmas and gave everybody antebiotics.

Just noticed MrsPops answer to your post. Thanks for confirming that for me MrsPop


----------



## steph.

I wish I had been young enough to get the HPV vaccine. By the time they introduced it I was already at uni :(

A bit off topic but I was talking to my mum the other day and she said something that made me think about this thread. She mentioned how she has this friend who is disabled because she had polio as a child. She can walk, but with a lot of difficulty. Her parents decided not to vaccinate, and have never forgiven themselves for that decision. I dont think I would be able to forgive myself if lo caught something that could easily have been prevented.


----------



## tommyg

You know you have just set me wondering if the polio victim that I knew was possibly the same or caught it before he was old enough to be vaccinated.

I do know that when he was in hospital for something recently they asked to bring student and junior doctors round to meet him as many of them will never have come across a polio victim.


----------



## Eve

Forced? No. 
Pressured? Yes!


----------



## Eve

steph. said:


> I wish I had been young enough to get the HPV vaccine. By the time they introduced it I was already at uni :(
> 
> A bit off topic but I was talking to my mum the other day and she said something that made me think about this thread. She mentioned how she has this friend who is disabled because she had polio as a child. She can walk, but with a lot of difficulty. Her parents decided not to vaccinate, and have never forgiven themselves for that decision. I dont think I would be able to forgive myself if lo caught something that could easily have been prevented.

I was paralyzed from the polio "vaccine" for over 24 hours. I screamed and screamed... only thing moving was my eyes. They were drops...


----------



## Eve

I'm sure before that started happening, it was "safe" too...


----------



## DLA

MrsPOP said:


> Depends on your definition of forced I guess! I meant a legal obligation to have them kinda thing with official punishment if they don't.
> 
> Incidentally I agree with what the Doctors in the USA are doing.

I agree. When I was looking for a pediatrician that was one of my requirements as I didn't want to be sitting in a waiting room with my 4 day old baby with the risk of a child in there with meningitis for instance. Yes that could happen anywhere but still I'm all about reducing risk, and that seemed like a no brainer. Our pediatrician lets you delay vaccinations but if you refuse them, you will be discharged from the practice. I totally agree with this policy and it's also to protect the providers from liability as well. I'm sure there are exceptions for medical conditions.


----------



## Eve

I think EVERY child has a right to medical care, vaccinated or not! It's ****** up enough in the US with their health care system, refusing to see children just tops it off in my book :(


----------



## DLA

Every child does have a right to medical care. Hospitals/ERs can't deny medical treatment due to insurance and definitely not due not being vaccinated. These are just policies that some private practices have (not all). I do understand them as the providers need to protect themselves as we are very sue happy over here.. It seems a little silly to keep seeing a patient who will not follow their medical recommendations. If something were to happen, it wouldnt be fair that they could be held responsible even though the patient (or patients parent) did not follow their advice. And why would you want to even go to doctor if you disagree with? I in no way am saying child that aren't vaccinated don't deserve medical treatment, of course they do! But it's the parent's responsibility to to find a pediatrician they are on the same page with.


----------



## Eve

But how would people feel if doctor's started denying children who weren't breastfed, as per their medical advice and WHO's guidelines?


----------



## My_First

I personally dont see the correlation, Eve, not breastfeeding a baby is not potentially life threatening, and you certainly cannot catch a possible preventable disease if they are or are not breastfed.


----------



## DLA

See I think that would be tough to compare. A baby who isn't breastfed is not at the same risk of a child who isn't vaccinated IMO. Yes breastmilk is like a vaccine in it's self but I just personally don't see that as an equal risk (feel free to disagree with me!) And honestly, if a doctor wanted to do that I think they have the right to. It would infuriate me, but obviously I wouldn't want my child to be see by someone that I disagree with so much. Now I'm talking about private practices, not clinics and state run offices who really do and should have to see everyone regardless of their situation. But a doctor that sets up his own practice, I think he can decide who he treats, as it's HIS or HER practice. And if a doctor was that picky a say not treating patients that weren't breast fed they would piss a lot of people off and most likely not be practicing for very long.


----------



## milf2be

MrsPOP said:


> milf2be said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tommyg said:
> 
> 
> Wriggler the chances are both you and SIL will have been given the rubella jag in your last year of primary school. If you can remember a jag that only the girls got then that is the rubella.
> 
> i think its in year 9 (13-14) you get it, unless its changed in the last few years, thats when i had mine.
> 
> the one in last year of primary is meningitis...now that one made me ILL. dont regret having it for a second though :thumbup:Click to expand...
> 
> Sorry but that's incorrect :flower: Rubella was given as a separate dose to girls aged 10-11 in the UK in the 90s until the kids who were on the new MMR schedule were old enough not to need that. Also some kids were given the MMR aged 11-12 (I was given it).
> 
> The jab given in year 9 (so ages 13-14) was the BCG but that's been taken off the regular vaccine schedule.
> 
> I was given a Men C vaccine aged 17 so... in 2000.
> 
> The jab given now to girls age 12-13 is the cervical cancer vaccine.
> 
> Here is a link to the NHS guide on the current vaccine schedule :thumbup:
> 
> 
> https://www.nhs.uk/Planners/vaccinations/Pages/Vaccinationchecklist.aspxClick to expand...

it might of changed now, but its not incorrect for me (im 22) thats how i had mine. 

meningitis in year 6

BCG, i had that in year 10. we had ours late because it was given to soldiers instead (or something like that) i think its meant to be in year 8 or 9 (at the time!)

i definitely had a rubella one in year 9, it was the MMR, i remember very well because i was thinking yes i get out of physics :haha:

i had to get all the dates before i started my course and ti was a right pain getting my old school to give me confirmation that i had the MMR! i also dont have a scar for the bcg, which again was a right pain!

thanks for the link :thumbup:


----------



## milf2be

Quackquack99 said:


> MrsPOP said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> milf2be said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tommyg said:
> 
> 
> Wriggler the chances are both you and SIL will have been given the rubella jag in your last year of primary school. If you can remember a jag that only the girls got then that is the rubella.
> 
> i think its in year 9 (13-14) you get it, unless its changed in the last few years, thats when i had mine.
> 
> the one in last year of primary is meningitis...now that one made me ILL. dont regret having it for a second though :thumbup:Click to expand...
> 
> Sorry but that's incorrect :flower: Rubella was given as a separate dose to girls aged 10-11 in the UK in the 90s until the kids who were on the new MMR schedule were old enough not to need that. Also some kids were given the MMR aged 11-12 (I was given it).
> 
> The jab given in year 9 (so ages 13-14) was the BCG but that's been taken off the regular vaccine schedule.
> 
> I was given a Men C vaccine aged 17 so... in 2000.
> 
> The jab given now to girls age 12-13 is the cervical cancer vaccine.
> 
> Here is a link to the NHS guide on the current vaccine schedule :thumbup:
> 
> 
> https://www.nhs.uk/Planners/vaccinations/Pages/Vaccinationchecklist.aspxClick to expand...
> 
> I remember getting the men c vaccine when I was about 8.
> I remember people getting the polio booster when I was about 15. But strangely enough I didn't need it.
> My daughter was given the bcg vaccine at a day old and to be honest I couldn't understand why.Click to expand...

we used to give bcg vaccines to babies whose parents had a certain ethnicity (chances of baby being taken abroad and catching tb and bringing it back). we had a big long list on the wall of countries. im not sure if its the same at every trust or if they still do it though!


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## Ozzieshunni

I don't see it as the same thing. I was just saying as a devil's advocate kind of thing. I agree with the US doctors.


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## MizzDeeDee

I don't see how they are similar either. My baby won't get sick from someone breastfeeding next to her... she can however get sick from someone with mumps sitting next to her. 

My Doctor's Office makes you come in through the back door if you have a fever.... especially kids.


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## deafgal

MizzDeeDee said:


> I don't see how they are similar either. My baby won't get sick from someone breastfeeding next to her... she can however get sick from someone with mumps sitting next to her.
> 
> My Doctor's Office makes you come in through the back door if you have a fever.... especially kids.


that's the main reason why they decided to have this policy. there are babies and children who haven't had their vaccinations yet and they want to protect them.

then they added that if the parents can't trust their professional opinion that these shots are safe, then how are they going to trust them with anything else such as medications (they prescribe them and parents decide not to use it? then what the purpose of going to them at all?) ? they feel these parents should find someone else.


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## Eternal

[edited by admin]

There is a massive difference between vaccinations and breastfeeding, how the heck are the two comparable.

Someone choosing not to vaccinate can kill their child and others, whereas someone not breastfeeding does not affect anyone elses child, and the risk levels are not comparitable, ok we know breast feeding is best, it reduces risks of certain things but not anywhere on the same level as vaccinations. 

I agree with doctors not allowing un vaxed kids in their practice, if i could afford to go fully private, i dont want my children next to a child who is un vaxed. Infact when my son was treated NHS, a my child was taken into a priavte room as soon as we arrived because he was only 5 weeks and the risk to him contracting something was high.


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## Wobbles

Threads has been cleaned up.

As per forum TOS you may not cross post especially when the post concerned has already been closed.

Keep it on topic.


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## Aidan's Mummy

hmmmm I'm on the other side of the fence for this

Vaccinated children can still contract and pass on mumps, measles etc. So a vaccinated child could still pass it onto an unvaccinated child. We ALL come into contact with un-vaccinated children every day but we just don't know it. I personally don't feel it's ok to deny a child care due to their parents choice, some say find another doctor. What will happen if every doctor in their area decides to have this new 'rule' where will teh parents go if their child needs medical attention? It just doesn't feel right to me and as a nurse in training I don't think I could ever deny a child care x


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## pinklightbulb

It's so sad what this world has come to when children are refused to be seen by a doctor in first world countries.


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## tommyg

I hear what you are saying Adeins Mummy but I think what the US doctors are getting at is they basically have too many people opting out of vaccines and basically they are trying to force people into vaccinating. 
Rightly or Wrongly but they have to protect the other sick people who use their serivces and not have lots of unvaccinated children bring all sort of dieases into the surgery isn't fair on anybody. 

I guess if a child needed emergancy care the local hospital would have to deal with them.


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## pinklightbulb

The hospitals here are backlogged in A&E enough as it is without having to take unvax'd kids there because a fricking GP won't see them.
We will treat smokers, but not unvax'd children?
LOL. What a joke.
And yes, I am a smoker. I see the irony. I'll get seen, but my son won't. 
I hope they don't bring this in in my country, I really do.


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## Ozzieshunni

I clearly said private doctors are doing it in the USA. Not the uk. :dohh:


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## pinklightbulb

I'm not in the UK. I've heard rumblings of it being done in my country though, and sincerely hope they do not bring it in.


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## steph.

Eve said:


> steph. said:
> 
> 
> I wish I had been young enough to get the HPV vaccine. By the time they introduced it I was already at uni :(
> 
> A bit off topic but I was talking to my mum the other day and she said something that made me think about this thread. She mentioned how she has this friend who is disabled because she had polio as a child. She can walk, but with a lot of difficulty. Her parents decided not to vaccinate, and have never forgiven themselves for that decision. I dont think I would be able to forgive myself if lo caught something that could easily have been prevented.
> 
> I was paralyzed from the polio "vaccine" for over 24 hours. I screamed and screamed... only thing moving was my eyes. They were drops...Click to expand...

Better 24 hours than a lifetime :shrug:


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## Eve

steph. said:


> Eve said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> steph. said:
> 
> 
> I wish I had been young enough to get the HPV vaccine. By the time they introduced it I was already at uni :(
> 
> A bit off topic but I was talking to my mum the other day and she said something that made me think about this thread. She mentioned how she has this friend who is disabled because she had polio as a child. She can walk, but with a lot of difficulty. Her parents decided not to vaccinate, and have never forgiven themselves for that decision. I dont think I would be able to forgive myself if lo caught something that could easily have been prevented.
> 
> I was paralyzed from the polio "vaccine" for over 24 hours. I screamed and screamed... only thing moving was my eyes. They were drops...Click to expand...
> 
> Better 24 hours than a lifetime :shrug:Click to expand...

Of course it is, I am not silly... but for something that was "safe" it sure didn't seem like it did it? Why do you think they have changed it from the live drops or whatever? Obviously I could have been worse off from the vaccine.


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## MyTurnYet

Eve said:


> steph. said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Eve said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> steph. said:
> 
> 
> I wish I had been young enough to get the HPV vaccine. By the time they introduced it I was already at uni :(
> 
> A bit off topic but I was talking to my mum the other day and she said something that made me think about this thread. She mentioned how she has this friend who is disabled because she had polio as a child. She can walk, but with a lot of difficulty. Her parents decided not to vaccinate, and have never forgiven themselves for that decision. I dont think I would be able to forgive myself if lo caught something that could easily have been prevented.
> 
> I was paralyzed from the polio "vaccine" for over 24 hours. I screamed and screamed... only thing moving was my eyes. They were drops...Click to expand...
> 
> Better 24 hours than a lifetime :shrug:Click to expand...
> 
> Of course it is, I am not silly... but for something that was "safe" it sure didn't seem like it did it? Why do you think they have changed it from the live drops or whatever? Obviously I could have been worse off from the vaccine.Click to expand...

I see what you mean. That must've been very traumatic for your parents. My son had his shots yesterday so watched him like a hawk all night. Would've lost my mind if something like that happened.


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## Eve

MyTurnYet said:


> Eve said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> steph. said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Eve said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> steph. said:
> 
> 
> I wish I had been young enough to get the HPV vaccine. By the time they introduced it I was already at uni :(
> 
> A bit off topic but I was talking to my mum the other day and she said something that made me think about this thread. She mentioned how she has this friend who is disabled because she had polio as a child. She can walk, but with a lot of difficulty. Her parents decided not to vaccinate, and have never forgiven themselves for that decision. I dont think I would be able to forgive myself if lo caught something that could easily have been prevented.
> 
> I was paralyzed from the polio "vaccine" for over 24 hours. I screamed and screamed... only thing moving was my eyes. They were drops...Click to expand...
> 
> Better 24 hours than a lifetime :shrug:Click to expand...
> 
> Of course it is, I am not silly... but for something that was "safe" it sure didn't seem like it did it? Why do you think they have changed it from the live drops or whatever? Obviously I could have been worse off from the vaccine.Click to expand...
> 
> I see what you mean. That must've been very traumatic for your parents. My son had his shots yesterday so watched him like a hawk all night. Would've lost my mind if something like that happened.Click to expand...

To top it off, the nurses on the phone just acted like it was totally normal and perfectly fine for my poor mom who was hysterical to say the least. I couldn't imagine seeing that :(


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## Aidan's Mummy

tommyg said:


> I hear what you are saying Adeins Mummy but I think what the US doctors are getting at is they basically have too many people opting out of vaccines and basically they are trying to force people into vaccinating.
> Rightly or Wrongly but they have to protect the other sick people who use their serivces and not have lots of unvaccinated children bring all sort of dieases into the surgery isn't fair on anybody.
> 
> I guess if a child needed emergancy care the local hospital would have to deal with them.

I don't see how they are protectin anyone as like I said a vaccinated child could just as easily pass on measles etc to an unvaccinated child. So how is banning unvaccinated children by choice effective?

Also not all medical attention that is needed it an emergancy, some children just have a mild infection that requires a simple course of antibiotics, some parents are concerned about development etc and are asking their doctor for advice. That would mean a child would have to go and sit in an emergancy room for hours for something that could be done in minutes i.e. refferal made or antibiotics prescribed, it would also put an unessicary increased workload on the hopsital staff. Taking them away from dealing with real emergancies/complicated treatments while they deal with something a doctor in his surgery can. Like I said I just fail to see how they are protecting anyone and it makes me wonder what happened to freedom of choice? Informed choices, where health professionals aide parents in making them choices. Empowering patients with relevant information to make choices about their healthcare. Now they are saying " I will give you all this information you can make the choice but make the wrong one and your out of here" It just goes against duty of care to children that have no power over what their parents choose x


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## tommyg

A huge part of the problem is many parents are making choices not to vaccinate on the research of Dr Google, hearsay and scare mongering. Very little reseach shows modern vacines to be dangerous. So where are parents being empowered to make the no vaccinate choice? If they are reading Dr Google then are they actually going to listen to the Dr about anything else? 

I would be raging if my LO too young to be vaccinated caught meases from another child who was sat in the Doctors waiting room. Would you not be?

Eve I understand you mum must have been terrified but I wonder if it was a known possible side affect of the old vaccine hence the nurses who'd seen it all before were a bit "she'll be fine, it happens" type attitude?

It also makes me wonder if reactions to some of the older vaccines possibly mean that some parents are put off giving the modern vaccines incase the same thing happens


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## deafgal

Idk, but I doubt most parents do not want their child be the guinea pig for newer vaccinations.


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## DLA

I know a lot people disagree with me on this but I think doctor's are well within their rights make vaccinations mandatory to remain a patient in THEIR PRIVATE practice. Their practice which they fund and started themselves, which they assume 100% liability for. We are not talking about state run or funded centers here. Also it's not something they spring on you. When you're looking for a doctor (I did this while I was pregnant), they give you the policies up front, so there are no surprises. My thinking, is you don't like it? No one is forcing you to see this doctor, you have free will to find any doctor that you are comfortable with. May it be more difficult to find a doctor that doesn't have this policy? Maybe but you made that choice.

Also I hear parents who choose not vaccinate go on and on about their choices not being respected which is ironic because as a parent who makes the choice to vaccinate (and yes it makes me nervous, but not as nervous as the thought of my son contracted a life threatening illness), I feel my choice is taken away when I'm sitting in a waiting room and nonvaccinated child gets my child sick. I made the choice to vaccinate to protect my son, and someone else's choice not to vaccinate just undid my protection. 

Now, could it still happen with vaccinated children? ABSOLUTELY. It could happen anywhere, not just the doctor's office, not just with unvaccinated children. I know that. BUT when you're talking about a doctor's office which obviously attracts sick patients, you're odds are higher of coming in contact with an illness than say the park or a restaurant. So already you have an increased chance of catching something just based on the nature of the bussiness (I'm not even factoring nonvaccinated patients yet), obviously that really can't be helped as everyone has to go to the dr at one time or another especially with kids. Now take a room full of children where the majority is vaccianted vs a room full of children where maybe 50% are vaccinated. Why would I want to increase the alredy hight odds of my son getting sick by putting him in the room with the 50/50 vaccinated kids when I've made the difficult choice to have him vaccinated to protect him? Where are my rights?

If my son gets sick from a vaccinated child, which is quite possible yes that will suck but at least I know everything was done to prevent it. If he gets sick from a child who was not vaccinated, quite frankly I'm going to be pissed knowing the fact that it could have been prevented and someone CHOSE not to. No one wants to see their kid go through UNNECESSARY pain.


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## deafgal

yep, sickness is the main reason we go to a doctor in the first place...and chances are that some of these sickness is due to not being vaccinated. My son had the chicken pox (we opted out of that one) and I nearly took him to the doctor but he was handling it fine so I didn't. I knew there were little babies there so I felt he would be ok staying home and wait it out.


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## MizzDeeDee

DLA said:


> *I know a lot people disagree with me on this but I think doctor's are well within their rights make vaccinations mandatory to remain a patient in THEIR PRIVATE practice. Their practice which they fund and started themselves, which they assume 100% liability for. We are not talking about state run or funded centers here. Also it's not something they spring on you. When you're looking for a doctor (I did this while I was pregnant), they give you the policies up front, so there are no surprises. My thinking, is you don't like it? No one is forcing you to see this doctor, you have free will to find any doctor that you are comfortable with. May it be more difficult to find a doctor that doesn't have this policy? Maybe but you made that choice.*
> 
> Also I hear parents who choose not vaccinate go on and on about their choices not being respected which is ironic because as a parent who makes the choice to vaccinate (and yes it makes me nervous, but not as nervous as the thought of my son contracted a life threatening illness), I feel my choice is taken away when I'm sitting in a waiting room and nonvaccinated child gets my child sick. I made the choice to vaccinate to protect my son, and someone else's choice not to vaccinate just undid my protection.
> 
> Now, could it still happen with vaccinated children? ABSOLUTELY. It could happen anywhere, not just the doctor's office, not just with unvaccinated children. I know that. BUT when you're talking about a doctor's office which obviously attracts sick patients, you're odds are higher of coming in contact with an illness than say the park or a restaurant. So already you have an increased chance of catching something just based on the nature of the bussiness (I'm not even factoring nonvaccinated patients yet), obviously that really can't be helped as everyone has to go to the dr at one time or another especially with kids. Now take a room full of children where the majority is vaccianted vs a room full of children where maybe 50% are vaccinated. Why would I want to increase the alredy hight odds of my son getting sick by putting him in the room with the 50/50 vaccinated kids when I've made the difficult choice to have him vaccinated to protect him? Where are my rights?
> 
> If my son gets sick from a vaccinated child, which is quite possible yes that will suck but at least I know everything was done to prevent it. If he gets sick from a child who was not vaccinated, quite frankly I'm going to be pissed knowing the fact that it could have been prevented and someone CHOSE not to. No one wants to see their kid go through UNNECESSARY pain.

Agree completely. If I don't like my Doctor I find someone else. Why in the world does a Private Doctor have to be forced to see a patient who goes against their medical advice?

As for the vaccine shedding issue: 
A. It's less likely to catch
B. It's a less virile version of the virus

That means it less contagious and if it is caught it's less likely to have the effects a "wild" strain would.


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## Ozzieshunni

It's so different, the USA system and the UK/European systems. DLA is spot on. They do tell you everything. It's not a surprise. With the USA system, you have an insurance provider (mostly through your work) and they have a list of doctors that accept their medical insurance. :flower:


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## Eve

Tommyg, I believe that is why they stopped giving the drops here... It happened to a lot more than me, I know that. Still... how do we know that is all it did?


----------



## tommyg

Who knows Eve. One thing I do know when I asked when could I take LO swimming I was told when ever you want. But apparently they used to tell people to wait until LO's had their first shots as their was a very very small chance that some of the live polio vaccine could be in a swimming pool with an even smaller chance of it affecting some unimmunised child.

However regardless of how risk free or otherwise the old vaccine was I would think the small risk from the vaccine would still be much better than the illness in an unimmunised community.

Remember Seria Leone 1 in 5 children will die before the age of 5 because of a lack of vaccines. How many others will be paralised etc with polio, how many will suffer the lasting effects of mumps, or measles?


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## Eve

Most places though where children die isn't from lack of vaccines per say. It's from lack of clean drinking water, very poor diet, not enough medical care, living in unsanitary conditions etc... Not all though. I am again, not against vaccines.


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## Eve

Malnutrition and the lack of safe water and sanitation contribute to half of all these children&#8217;s deaths. Research and experience show that most of the children who die each year could be saved by low-tech, evidence-based, cost-effective measures such as vaccines, antibiotics, micronutrient supplementation, insecticide-treated bed nets, improved family care and breastfeeding practices [8], and oral rehydration therapy[9]. In addition to providing vaccines and antibiotics to children, education could also be provided to mothers about how they can make simple changes to living conditions such as improving hygiene in order to increase the health of their children. Mothers who are educated will also have increased confidence in the ability to take care of their children, therefore providing a healthier relationship and environment for them.

According to the World Health Organization, the main causes of death are pneumonia, diarrhea, malaria, measles, and HIV. Malnutrition is estimated to contribute to more than one third of all child deaths.[14] 1 child dies every 5 seconds as a result of hunger - 700 every hour - 16 000 each day - 6 million each year - 60% of all child deaths (2002-2008 estimates)


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## Eve

Even with vaccines available, without clean water and a sanitary environment, as well as higher breastfeeding/extended breastfeeding rates etc... many children will still sadly die :(


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## deafgal

sometimes disabilities can worsen the situation in developing countries. And some of those disabilities are caused by diseases and viruses that could have been prevented.


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## Aidan's Mummy

> I would be raging if my LO too young to be vaccinated caught meases from another child who was sat in the Doctors waiting room. Would you not be?

A vaccinated child could pass measles onto Oliver when he is born as much as an unvaccinated child could. Vaccinated or unvaccinated they can still infect my unvaxed newborn x


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## Ozzieshunni

I guess I have to look at it this way. Picture yourself a mother in the 1700s watching your child die from smallpox. Wouldn't you have given the world for something to cure or prevent your child from having that disease? Advances in medical science allow us to have those possible preventions. I'm not going to say no :shrug:


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## Leopard

'Advances' in the medical world also causes doctors to push formula, allows surgeries that are unnecessary and causes all sorts of other problems. Not all advances are improvements.


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## Natsku

I think we can be pretty sure that vaccines are an improvement though!


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## Leopard

Natsku said:


> I think we can be pretty sure that vaccines are an improvement though!

Perhaps, for some people. For others, depending on your perception, they are a step backwards.


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## Natsku

Well yes I guess there's always going to be some people that think that helping prevent illnesses and deaths is a step backwards. I suppose with overpopulation we could do with a few mass outbreaks...


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## tommyg

Eve said:


> Malnutrition and the lack of safe water and sanitation contribute to half of all these children&#8217;s deaths. Research and experience show that most of the children who die each year could be saved by low-tech, evidence-based, cost-effective measures such as vaccines, antibiotics, micronutrient supplementation, insecticide-treated bed nets, improved family care and breastfeeding practices [8], and oral rehydration therapy[9]. In addition to providing vaccines and antibiotics to children, education could also be provided to mothers about how they can make simple changes to living conditions such as improving hygiene in order to increase the health of their children. Mothers who are educated will also have increased confidence in the ability to take care of their children, therefore providing a healthier relationship and environment for them.
> 
> According to the World Health Organization, the main causes of death are pneumonia, diarrhea, malaria, measles, and HIV. Malnutrition is estimated to contribute to more than one third of all child deaths.[14] 1 child dies every 5 seconds as a result of hunger - 700 every hour - 16 000 each day - 6 million each year - 60% of all child deaths (2002-2008 estimates)

I assume your refering to my comment 1 in 5 die because of the lack of vaccines in Seria Leone, the is what they were saying on the Sport Relief programe on our TVs on Saturday. It is an appeal to raise cash for various causes and one short clip they were in a hospital in Seria Leona appealing for money for vaccines. None of the Children looked malnurished, nor were they starving they appeared to be getting reasonable medical care but they couldn't save them. Prevention is better than Cure.


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## Leopard

Natsku said:


> Well yes I guess there's always going to be some people that think that helping prevent illnesses and deaths is a step backwards. I suppose with overpopulation we could do with a few mass outbreaks...

Then we have people like you. Vaccines rarely 'prevent' illness, in fact it is giving you a small, or dead, version of the virus and going 'here body, fight it for me, on the off chance this exact strain will ever be around'. There is a HUGE percentage of Australians that do not MMR, but have you seen a measles outbreak in Australia?


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## Loui1001

I really don't know how anyone could justify that prevention of disease, lifelong disabilities and death is a step backwards? Strange mindset.


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## Leopard

Loui1001 said:


> I really don't know how anyone could justify that prevention of disease, lifelong disabilities and death is a step backwards? Strange mindset.

How about those that get the disease, or a lifelong disability from the vaccine :shrug:


----------



## Natsku

Leopard said:


> Natsku said:
> 
> 
> Well yes I guess there's always going to be some people that think that helping prevent illnesses and deaths is a step backwards. I suppose with overpopulation we could do with a few mass outbreaks...
> 
> Then we have people like you. Vaccines rarely 'prevent' illness, in fact it is giving you a small, or dead, version of the virus and going 'here body, fight it for me, on the off chance this exact strain will ever be around'. There is a HUGE percentage of Australians that do not MMR, but have you seen a measles outbreak in Australia?Click to expand...

I just googled 'measles australia' and the first result says this "High take-up rates of the infant measles-mumps-rubella (MMR) vaccine has led to the elimination of the endemic measles virus in Australia, immunisation experts say."


----------



## Leopard

Natsku said:


> Leopard said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Natsku said:
> 
> 
> Well yes I guess there's always going to be some people that think that helping prevent illnesses and deaths is a step backwards. I suppose with overpopulation we could do with a few mass outbreaks...
> 
> Then we have people like you. Vaccines rarely 'prevent' illness, in fact it is giving you a small, or dead, version of the virus and going 'here body, fight it for me, on the off chance this exact strain will ever be around'. There is a HUGE percentage of Australians that do not MMR, but have you seen a measles outbreak in Australia?Click to expand...
> 
> I just googled 'measles australia' and the first result says this "High take-up rates of the infant measles-mumps-rubella (MMR) vaccine has led to the elimination of the endemic measles virus in Australia, immunisation experts say."Click to expand...

That was technically a generation before mine. Measles wasn't even around when my mum was a kid.


----------



## Natsku

Leopard said:


> Natsku said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Leopard said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Natsku said:
> 
> 
> Well yes I guess there's always going to be some people that think that helping prevent illnesses and deaths is a step backwards. I suppose with overpopulation we could do with a few mass outbreaks...
> 
> Then we have people like you. Vaccines rarely 'prevent' illness, in fact it is giving you a small, or dead, version of the virus and going 'here body, fight it for me, on the off chance this exact strain will ever be around'. There is a HUGE percentage of Australians that do not MMR, but have you seen a measles outbreak in Australia?Click to expand...
> 
> I just googled 'measles australia' and the first result says this "High take-up rates of the infant measles-mumps-rubella (MMR) vaccine has led to the elimination of the endemic measles virus in Australia, immunisation experts say."Click to expand...
> 
> That was technically a generation before mine. Measles wasn't even around when my mum was a kid.Click to expand...

And do you see the connection with the vaccine and no measles...?

It says later in the article that large outbreaks could be expected after 2015.

Edit: Just read that there was major measles epidemics in Australia in the mid 90s which sparked a big vaccination campaign which was opposed by an anti-vaccine group who predicted lots of adverse reactions to the vaccines...
(first number column is the numbers predicted by the anti-vaccine group and second number column is the actual numbers of adverse reactions that occured )
Rash/Fever 270,000 8
Parotitis 16,700 4
Arthritis 46,260 1
Febrile seizure 648 1
Thrombocytopaenia 60 0
Aseptic meningitis 15 0
Death 3 0


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## Leopard

Natsku said:


> Leopard said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Natsku said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Leopard said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Natsku said:
> 
> 
> Well yes I guess there's always going to be some people that think that helping prevent illnesses and deaths is a step backwards. I suppose with overpopulation we could do with a few mass outbreaks...
> 
> Then we have people like you. Vaccines rarely 'prevent' illness, in fact it is giving you a small, or dead, version of the virus and going 'here body, fight it for me, on the off chance this exact strain will ever be around'. There is a HUGE percentage of Australians that do not MMR, but have you seen a measles outbreak in Australia?Click to expand...
> 
> I just googled 'measles australia' and the first result says this "High take-up rates of the infant measles-mumps-rubella (MMR) vaccine has led to the elimination of the endemic measles virus in Australia, immunisation experts say."Click to expand...
> 
> That was technically a generation before mine. Measles wasn't even around when my mum was a kid.Click to expand...
> 
> And do you see the connection with the vaccine and no measles...?
> 
> It says later in the article that large outbreaks could be expected after 2015.Click to expand...

We were also told we'd be driving around in hover cars but 2000 and that the world was ending in 2012.


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## Lil_Pixie

How can anyone say vaccines don't prevent illnesses? They're not passed around for shits and giggles.

I understand some people who've been vaccinated can still get sick. But so so many. Ore won't. It's one thing to say you don't want to vaccinate for whatever reason, but you can't really say they're not effective!


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## Leopard

Lil_Pixie said:


> How can anyone say vaccines don't prevent illnesses? They're not passed around for shits and giggles.
> 
> I understand some people who've been vaccinated can still get sick. But so so many. Ore won't. It's one thing to say you don't want to vaccinate for whatever reason, but you can't really say they're not effective!

When you see children and adults alike die from the vaccination itself, it makes me question their effectiveness.


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## Lil_Pixie

I dot think the worlds best minds thought the world was going to end! It's hardly the same thing!


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## Lil_Pixie

I think nats post just listed the number of deaths in Australia from the vaccines


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## Natsku

I edited my post Leopard, have a look


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## Leopard

Natsku said:


> Leopard said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Natsku said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Leopard said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Natsku said:
> 
> 
> Well yes I guess there's always going to be some people that think that helping prevent illnesses and deaths is a step backwards. I suppose with overpopulation we could do with a few mass outbreaks...
> 
> Then we have people like you. Vaccines rarely 'prevent' illness, in fact it is giving you a small, or dead, version of the virus and going 'here body, fight it for me, on the off chance this exact strain will ever be around'. There is a HUGE percentage of Australians that do not MMR, but have you seen a measles outbreak in Australia?Click to expand...
> 
> I just googled 'measles australia' and the first result says this "High take-up rates of the infant measles-mumps-rubella (MMR) vaccine has led to the elimination of the endemic measles virus in Australia, immunisation experts say."Click to expand...
> 
> That was technically a generation before mine. Measles wasn't even around when my mum was a kid.Click to expand...
> 
> And do you see the connection with the vaccine and no measles...?
> 
> It says later in the article that large outbreaks could be expected after 2015.
> 
> Edit: Just read that there was major measles epidemics in Australia in the mid 90s which sparked a big vaccination campaign which was opposed by an anti-vaccine group who predicted lots of adverse reactions to the vaccines...
> (first number column is the numbers predicted by the anti-vaccine group and second number column is the actual numbers of adverse reactions that occured )
> Rash/Fever 270,000 8
> Parotitis 16,700 4
> Arthritis 46,260 1
> Febrile seizure 648 1
> Thrombocytopaenia 60 0
> Aseptic meningitis 15 0
> Death 3 0Click to expand...

That was my generation. LOL


----------



## Natsku

You're not going to respond to the numbers? There's a difference between what anti-vax people say will happen and what actually happens. Why do people still trust these anti-vax people?


----------



## Leopard

Natsku said:


> You're not going to respond to the numbers? There's a difference between what anti-vax people say will happen and what actually happens. Why do people still trust these anti-vax people?

Because they have a point? Most anti-vaxing are also breastfeeding, baby wearing, co-sleeping, totally organic parents. I see people that go 'why do we trust those people' because sometimes they are right.

I'm not anti-vax, I'm anti-early vax.


----------



## Leopard

Natsku said:


> You're not going to respond to the numbers? There's a difference between what anti-vax people say will happen and what actually happens. Why do people still trust these anti-vax people?

Oh and I'm not responding to the numbers because no one within 200km of me has had the measles ever, and as I said, it was my generation, when most kids my age were not vaccinated any way.


----------



## Lil_Pixie

But in this instance how can they be right when evidence proves them wrong?


----------



## Natsku

Leopard said:


> Natsku said:
> 
> 
> You're not going to respond to the numbers? There's a difference between what anti-vax people say will happen and what actually happens. Why do people still trust these anti-vax people?
> 
> Because they have a point? Most anti-vaxing are also breastfeeding, baby wearing, co-sleeping, totally organic parents. I see people that go 'why do we trust those people' because sometimes they are right.
> 
> I'm not anti-vax, I'm anti-early vax.Click to expand...

Just because someone is right about one thing doesn't mean they are right about everything. Especially when what they say goes completely against the facts - thats usually a good sign that you shouldn't listen to them.


----------



## Leopard

Natsku said:


> Leopard said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Natsku said:
> 
> 
> You're not going to respond to the numbers? There's a difference between what anti-vax people say will happen and what actually happens. Why do people still trust these anti-vax people?
> 
> Because they have a point? Most anti-vaxing are also breastfeeding, baby wearing, co-sleeping, totally organic parents. I see people that go 'why do we trust those people' because sometimes they are right.
> 
> I'm not anti-vax, I'm anti-early vax.Click to expand...
> 
> Just because someone is right about one thing doesn't mean they are right about everything. Especially when what they say goes completely against the facts - thats usually a good sign that you shouldn't listen to them.Click to expand...

What about doctors that are also on the same page. They are not usually uneducated.


----------



## darkangel1981

Leopard said:


> Natsku said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Leopard said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Natsku said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Leopard said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Natsku said:
> 
> 
> Well yes I guess there's always going to be some people that think that helping prevent illnesses and deaths is a step backwards. I suppose with overpopulation we could do with a few mass outbreaks...
> 
> Then we have people like you. Vaccines rarely 'prevent' illness, in fact it is giving you a small, or dead, version of the virus and going 'here body, fight it for me, on the off chance this exact strain will ever be around'. There is a HUGE percentage of Australians that do not MMR, but have you seen a measles outbreak in Australia?Click to expand...
> 
> I just googled 'measles australia' and the first result says this "High take-up rates of the infant measles-mumps-rubella (MMR) vaccine has led to the elimination of the endemic measles virus in Australia, immunisation experts say."Click to expand...
> 
> That was technically a generation before mine. Measles wasn't even around when my mum was a kid.Click to expand...
> 
> And do you see the connection with the vaccine and no measles...?
> 
> It says later in the article that large outbreaks could be expected after 2015.
> 
> Edit: Just read that there was major measles epidemics in Australia in the mid 90s which sparked a big vaccination campaign which was opposed by an anti-vaccine group who predicted lots of adverse reactions to the vaccines...
> (first number column is the numbers predicted by the anti-vaccine group and second number column is the actual numbers of adverse reactions that occured )
> Rash/Fever 270,000 8
> Parotitis 16,700 4
> Arthritis 46,260 1
> Febrile seizure 648 1
> Thrombocytopaenia 60 0
> Aseptic meningitis 15 0
> Death 3 0Click to expand...
> 
> That was my generation. LOLClick to expand...

I really don't see what is to be LOL'ed at

Vaccinations save life's- simples. Whether you choose to vaccinated is up to the individual but there is no denying that they do the job.


----------



## Natsku

Leopard said:


> Natsku said:
> 
> 
> You're not going to respond to the numbers? There's a difference between what anti-vax people say will happen and what actually happens. Why do people still trust these anti-vax people?
> 
> Oh and I'm not responding to the numbers because no one within 200km of me has had the measles ever, and as I said, it was my generation, when most kids my age were not vaccinated any way.Click to expand...

They weren't vaccinated and then they had epidemics and were vaccinated and then they stopped having outbreaks... 

And I'm pretty sure someone within 200km of you has had measles if there were mass out breaks 15 or so years ago


----------



## Leopard

darkangel1981 said:


> Leopard said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Natsku said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Leopard said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Natsku said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Leopard said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Natsku said:
> 
> 
> Well yes I guess there's always going to be some people that think that helping prevent illnesses and deaths is a step backwards. I suppose with overpopulation we could do with a few mass outbreaks...
> 
> Then we have people like you. Vaccines rarely 'prevent' illness, in fact it is giving you a small, or dead, version of the virus and going 'here body, fight it for me, on the off chance this exact strain will ever be around'. There is a HUGE percentage of Australians that do not MMR, but have you seen a measles outbreak in Australia?Click to expand...
> 
> I just googled 'measles australia' and the first result says this "High take-up rates of the infant measles-mumps-rubella (MMR) vaccine has led to the elimination of the endemic measles virus in Australia, immunisation experts say."Click to expand...
> 
> That was technically a generation before mine. Measles wasn't even around when my mum was a kid.Click to expand...
> 
> And do you see the connection with the vaccine and no measles...?
> 
> It says later in the article that large outbreaks could be expected after 2015.
> 
> Edit: Just read that there was major measles epidemics in Australia in the mid 90s which sparked a big vaccination campaign which was opposed by an anti-vaccine group who predicted lots of adverse reactions to the vaccines...
> (first number column is the numbers predicted by the anti-vaccine group and second number column is the actual numbers of adverse reactions that occured )
> Rash/Fever 270,000 8
> Parotitis 16,700 4
> Arthritis 46,260 1
> Febrile seizure 648 1
> Thrombocytopaenia 60 0
> Aseptic meningitis 15 0
> Death 3 0Click to expand...
> 
> That was my generation. LOLClick to expand...
> 
> I really don't see what is to be LOL'ed at
> 
> Vaccinations save life's- simples. Whether you choose to vaccinated is up to the individual but there is no denying that they do the job.Click to expand...

I'm loling because I know a lot of people from that time frame that did not get vaccinated and did not catch the measles.


----------



## Leopard

Natsku said:


> Leopard said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Natsku said:
> 
> 
> You're not going to respond to the numbers? There's a difference between what anti-vax people say will happen and what actually happens. Why do people still trust these anti-vax people?
> 
> Oh and I'm not responding to the numbers because no one within 200km of me has had the measles ever, and as I said, it was my generation, when most kids my age were not vaccinated any way.Click to expand...
> 
> They weren't vaccinated and then they had epidemics and were vaccinated and then they stopped having outbreaks...
> 
> And I'm pretty sure someone within 200km of you has had measles if there were mass out breaks 15 or so years agoClick to expand...

Measles outbreak alarms health authorities
The World Today Josh Bavas
Updated September 15, 2010 06:06:00

PHOTO: Health authorities say anyone born during or after 1966 should be checking to see if they received two doses of MMR vaccine.
AUDIO: Queensland Health fears measles spread (The World Today)
RELATED STORY: Traveller sparks NSW measles outbreakRELATED STORY: Measles cases recorded at Townsville hospitalRELATED STORY: More potential measles cases being investigated
MAP: QLD
Health authorities across New South Wales and Queensland are urging residents to make sure they are immunised against measles.

A spate of outbreaks across the eastern seaboard has doctors worried that a pandemic that was raging in South Africa during the World Cup is quietly spilling across the Indian Ocean.

GPs say the reluctance by some parents here to immunise their children has put the public in danger of a major outbreak.

Queensland Health officials believe the most recent case of measles was contracted by an adult from the state's north, who was returning home on a flight from South Africa last month.

Public medical officer Dr Steven Donohue says since then another two people have been infected in Townsville after they came into contact with the traveller.

"Measles is not a trivial illness - this thing is the worst of the childhood diseases [and] used to kill a lot of children," Dr Donohue said.

"In the last two weeks seven cases were confirmed at Tweed Heads on the New South Wales-Queensland border, and a local mine worker in Moranbah to the south-west of Mackay contracted the disease.

"Another two [people] in Townsville are still waiting on results."

Dr Donohue says he is concerned the disease is spreading undetected, as the time between contracting the virus and showing symptoms can be up to two weeks.

"You can walk past somebody with measles in a supermarket while they're infectious and if you're not immune, then it's quite possible for you to get this disease," he said.

He says adults under the age of 45 are most at risk, as they may not have received a vaccination.

"Basically anyone born during or after 1966 should be checking if they received two doses of MMR vaccine and if not, then our advice is to go along to your GP and get a free additional dose of MMR just to make sure," Dr Donohue said.

Townsville GP network chairman Dr Kevin Arlett says there has been a reduction in vaccinations over the last decade, and that could be disastrous.

"Because a lot of people haven't seen these diseases, there's been a whole generation basically who hasn't seen a lot of these infectious diseases," he said.

"People are feeling a little bit blase about it perhaps, but they're also being fed some information by some of the anti-vaccination lobby groups suggesting that vaccinations are more dangerous than the disease itself."

He says the Australian public may have forgotten what toll the measles disease can take on the human body.

"It can lead to all sorts of problems, but as [with] most viral infections it affects the whole body so you can end up with problems of the lungs, you can end up with problems with the brain and that's obviously where disasters occur," he said.

*There ended up being like 6 confirmed cases. Hardly an outbreak.*


----------



## Natsku

Leopard said:


> Natsku said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Leopard said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Natsku said:
> 
> 
> You're not going to respond to the numbers? There's a difference between what anti-vax people say will happen and what actually happens. Why do people still trust these anti-vax people?
> 
> Because they have a point? Most anti-vaxing are also breastfeeding, baby wearing, co-sleeping, totally organic parents. I see people that go 'why do we trust those people' because sometimes they are right.
> 
> I'm not anti-vax, I'm anti-early vax.Click to expand...
> 
> Just because someone is right about one thing doesn't mean they are right about everything. Especially when what they say goes completely against the facts - thats usually a good sign that you shouldn't listen to them.Click to expand...
> 
> What about doctors that are also on the same page. They are not usually uneducated.Click to expand...

The opinions of a minority of doctors does not change facts.


----------



## Lil_Pixie

That's like saying I know a lot of peope who smoked and didn't get cancer. Or had unprotected sex and didn't get an std or drank when pregnant and had a healthy baby.

It wasn't not vaccinating that stopped them getting measles, it was all te other people who are vaccinated and luck!


----------



## Leopard

Lil_Pixie said:


> That's like saying I know a lot of peope who smoked and didn't get cancer. Or had unprotected sex and didn't get an std or drank when pregnant and had a healthy baby.
> 
> It wasn't not vaccinating that stopped them getting measles, it was all te other people who are vaccinated and luck!

Not really, because Australia did not have a very large herd immunity at all.


----------



## Lil_Pixie

Do you honestly believe if the whole of Australia stopped vaccinating children wouldn't start getting, and dying from all these preventable diseases?


----------



## Natsku

Leopard said:


> Natsku said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Leopard said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Natsku said:
> 
> 
> You're not going to respond to the numbers? There's a difference between what anti-vax people say will happen and what actually happens. Why do people still trust these anti-vax people?
> 
> Oh and I'm not responding to the numbers because no one within 200km of me has had the measles ever, and as I said, it was my generation, when most kids my age were not vaccinated any way.Click to expand...
> 
> They weren't vaccinated and then they had epidemics and were vaccinated and then they stopped having outbreaks...
> 
> And I'm pretty sure someone within 200km of you has had measles if there were mass out breaks 15 or so years agoClick to expand...
> 
> Measles outbreak alarms health authorities
> The World Today Josh Bavas
> Updated September 15, 2010 06:06:00
> 
> PHOTO: Health authorities say anyone born during or after 1966 should be checking to see if they received two doses of MMR vaccine.
> AUDIO: Queensland Health fears measles spread (The World Today)
> RELATED STORY: Traveller sparks NSW measles outbreakRELATED STORY: Measles cases recorded at Townsville hospitalRELATED STORY: More potential measles cases being investigated
> MAP: QLD
> Health authorities across New South Wales and Queensland are urging residents to make sure they are immunised against measles.
> 
> A spate of outbreaks across the eastern seaboard has doctors worried that a pandemic that was raging in South Africa during the World Cup is quietly spilling across the Indian Ocean.
> 
> GPs say the reluctance by some parents here to immunise their children has put the public in danger of a major outbreak.
> 
> Queensland Health officials believe the most recent case of measles was contracted by an adult from the state's north, who was returning home on a flight from South Africa last month.
> 
> Public medical officer Dr Steven Donohue says since then another two people have been infected in Townsville after they came into contact with the traveller.
> 
> "Measles is not a trivial illness - this thing is the worst of the childhood diseases [and] used to kill a lot of children," Dr Donohue said.
> 
> "In the last two weeks seven cases were confirmed at Tweed Heads on the New South Wales-Queensland border, and a local mine worker in Moranbah to the south-west of Mackay contracted the disease.
> 
> "Another two [people] in Townsville are still waiting on results."
> 
> Dr Donohue says he is concerned the disease is spreading undetected, as the time between contracting the virus and showing symptoms can be up to two weeks.
> 
> "You can walk past somebody with measles in a supermarket while they're infectious and if you're not immune, then it's quite possible for you to get this disease," he said.
> 
> He says adults under the age of 45 are most at risk, as they may not have received a vaccination.
> 
> "Basically anyone born during or after 1966 should be checking if they received two doses of MMR vaccine and if not, then our advice is to go along to your GP and get a free additional dose of MMR just to make sure," Dr Donohue said.
> 
> Townsville GP network chairman Dr Kevin Arlett says there has been a reduction in vaccinations over the last decade, and that could be disastrous.
> 
> "Because a lot of people haven't seen these diseases, there's been a whole generation basically who hasn't seen a lot of these infectious diseases," he said.
> 
> "People are feeling a little bit blase about it perhaps, but they're also being fed some information by some of the anti-vaccination lobby groups suggesting that vaccinations are more dangerous than the disease itself."
> 
> He says the Australian public may have forgotten what toll the measles disease can take on the human body.
> 
> "It can lead to all sorts of problems, but as [with] most viral infections it affects the whole body so you can end up with problems of the lungs, you can end up with problems with the brain and that's obviously where disasters occur," he said.
> 
> *There ended up being like 6 confirmed cases. Hardly an outbreak.*Click to expand...

2010 is two years ago, clearly not what I was talking about

*The Australian Measles Control Campaign was initiated in August 1998 as part of the World Health Organisation's global Measles eradication program, and in response to major epidemics in Australia throughout 1994/95, together with a report predicting another impending measles epidemic in Australia. The campaign vaccinated 1.78 million children, making it the largest national vaccination campaign conducted in Australia since the introduction of poliomyelitis vaccination in 1956.*


----------



## Leopard

Lil_Pixie said:


> Do you honestly believe if the whole of Australia stopped vaccinating children wouldn't start getting, and dying from all these preventable diseases?

Close our borders, keep the foreigners out and the Aussies in and then yep, definitely.


----------



## Leopard

Natsku said:


> Leopard said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Natsku said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Leopard said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Natsku said:
> 
> 
> You're not going to respond to the numbers? There's a difference between what anti-vax people say will happen and what actually happens. Why do people still trust these anti-vax people?
> 
> Oh and I'm not responding to the numbers because no one within 200km of me has had the measles ever, and as I said, it was my generation, when most kids my age were not vaccinated any way.Click to expand...
> 
> They weren't vaccinated and then they had epidemics and were vaccinated and then they stopped having outbreaks...
> 
> And I'm pretty sure someone within 200km of you has had measles if there were mass out breaks 15 or so years agoClick to expand...
> 
> Measles outbreak alarms health authorities
> The World Today Josh Bavas
> Updated September 15, 2010 06:06:00
> 
> PHOTO: Health authorities say anyone born during or after 1966 should be checking to see if they received two doses of MMR vaccine.
> AUDIO: Queensland Health fears measles spread (The World Today)
> RELATED STORY: Traveller sparks NSW measles outbreakRELATED STORY: Measles cases recorded at Townsville hospitalRELATED STORY: More potential measles cases being investigated
> MAP: QLD
> Health authorities across New South Wales and Queensland are urging residents to make sure they are immunised against measles.
> 
> A spate of outbreaks across the eastern seaboard has doctors worried that a pandemic that was raging in South Africa during the World Cup is quietly spilling across the Indian Ocean.
> 
> GPs say the reluctance by some parents here to immunise their children has put the public in danger of a major outbreak.
> 
> Queensland Health officials believe the most recent case of measles was contracted by an adult from the state's north, who was returning home on a flight from South Africa last month.
> 
> Public medical officer Dr Steven Donohue says since then another two people have been infected in Townsville after they came into contact with the traveller.
> 
> "Measles is not a trivial illness - this thing is the worst of the childhood diseases [and] used to kill a lot of children," Dr Donohue said.
> 
> "In the last two weeks seven cases were confirmed at Tweed Heads on the New South Wales-Queensland border, and a local mine worker in Moranbah to the south-west of Mackay contracted the disease.
> 
> "Another two [people] in Townsville are still waiting on results."
> 
> Dr Donohue says he is concerned the disease is spreading undetected, as the time between contracting the virus and showing symptoms can be up to two weeks.
> 
> "You can walk past somebody with measles in a supermarket while they're infectious and if you're not immune, then it's quite possible for you to get this disease," he said.
> 
> He says adults under the age of 45 are most at risk, as they may not have received a vaccination.
> 
> "Basically anyone born during or after 1966 should be checking if they received two doses of MMR vaccine and if not, then our advice is to go along to your GP and get a free additional dose of MMR just to make sure," Dr Donohue said.
> 
> Townsville GP network chairman Dr Kevin Arlett says there has been a reduction in vaccinations over the last decade, and that could be disastrous.
> 
> "Because a lot of people haven't seen these diseases, there's been a whole generation basically who hasn't seen a lot of these infectious diseases," he said.
> 
> "People are feeling a little bit blase about it perhaps, but they're also being fed some information by some of the anti-vaccination lobby groups suggesting that vaccinations are more dangerous than the disease itself."
> 
> He says the Australian public may have forgotten what toll the measles disease can take on the human body.
> 
> "It can lead to all sorts of problems, but as [with] most viral infections it affects the whole body so you can end up with problems of the lungs, you can end up with problems with the brain and that's obviously where disasters occur," he said.
> 
> *There ended up being like 6 confirmed cases. Hardly an outbreak.*Click to expand...
> 
> 2010 is two years ago, clearly not what I was talking about
> 
> *The Australian Measles Control Campaign was initiated in August 1998 as part of the World Health Organisation's global Measles eradication program, and in response to major epidemics in Australia throughout 1994/95, together with a report predicting another impending measles epidemic in Australia. The campaign vaccinated 1.78 million children, making it the largest national vaccination campaign conducted in Australia since the introduction of poliomyelitis vaccination in 1956.*Click to expand...

I never had the vaccination, neither did majority of people my age. Why aren't we all dead hmm?


----------



## MizzDeeDee

Lil_Pixie said:


> That's like saying I know a lot of peope who smoked and didn't get cancer. Or had unprotected sex and didn't get an std or drank when pregnant and had a healthy baby.
> 
> It wasn't not vaccinating that stopped them getting measles, it was all te other people who are vaccinated and luck!

:thumbup: 100% agree. 

Saying that preventing illness and deaths is a step backwards doesn't even make sense to me.


----------



## Lil_Pixie

51-54 % of people your age were vaccinated. That's a majority


----------



## Lil_Pixie

It's not about all children dying though is it? It's about making sure your child isn't one of the unlucky few!


----------



## Leopard

Lil_Pixie said:


> 51-54 % of people your age were vaccinated. That's a majority

Australia wide perhaps, not locally by any means.


----------



## Leopard

Lil_Pixie said:


> It's not about all children dying though is it? It's about making sure your child isn't one of the unlucky few!

Well it seems to be the main argument. 'Don't vaccinate, your kid will die'


----------



## MizzDeeDee

Leopard said:


> Lil_Pixie said:
> 
> 
> Do you honestly believe if the whole of Australia stopped vaccinating children wouldn't start getting, and dying from all these preventable diseases?
> 
> Close our borders, keep the foreigners out and the Aussies in and then yep, definitely.Click to expand...

:roll: Good luck with that.. and that's not the least bit offensive to others btw. 

You know that's literally impossible.. right? Also, that means.. you all have to stay in.


----------



## Natsku

Leopard said:


> Natsku said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Leopard said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Natsku said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Leopard said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Natsku said:
> 
> 
> You're not going to respond to the numbers? There's a difference between what anti-vax people say will happen and what actually happens. Why do people still trust these anti-vax people?
> 
> Oh and I'm not responding to the numbers because no one within 200km of me has had the measles ever, and as I said, it was my generation, when most kids my age were not vaccinated any way.Click to expand...
> 
> They weren't vaccinated and then they had epidemics and were vaccinated and then they stopped having outbreaks...
> 
> And I'm pretty sure someone within 200km of you has had measles if there were mass out breaks 15 or so years agoClick to expand...
> 
> Measles outbreak alarms health authorities
> The World Today Josh Bavas
> Updated September 15, 2010 06:06:00
> 
> PHOTO: Health authorities say anyone born during or after 1966 should be checking to see if they received two doses of MMR vaccine.
> AUDIO: Queensland Health fears measles spread (The World Today)
> RELATED STORY: Traveller sparks NSW measles outbreakRELATED STORY: Measles cases recorded at Townsville hospitalRELATED STORY: More potential measles cases being investigated
> MAP: QLD
> Health authorities across New South Wales and Queensland are urging residents to make sure they are immunised against measles.
> 
> A spate of outbreaks across the eastern seaboard has doctors worried that a pandemic that was raging in South Africa during the World Cup is quietly spilling across the Indian Ocean.
> 
> GPs say the reluctance by some parents here to immunise their children has put the public in danger of a major outbreak.
> 
> Queensland Health officials believe the most recent case of measles was contracted by an adult from the state's north, who was returning home on a flight from South Africa last month.
> 
> Public medical officer Dr Steven Donohue says since then another two people have been infected in Townsville after they came into contact with the traveller.
> 
> "Measles is not a trivial illness - this thing is the worst of the childhood diseases [and] used to kill a lot of children," Dr Donohue said.
> 
> "In the last two weeks seven cases were confirmed at Tweed Heads on the New South Wales-Queensland border, and a local mine worker in Moranbah to the south-west of Mackay contracted the disease.
> 
> "Another two [people] in Townsville are still waiting on results."
> 
> Dr Donohue says he is concerned the disease is spreading undetected, as the time between contracting the virus and showing symptoms can be up to two weeks.
> 
> "You can walk past somebody with measles in a supermarket while they're infectious and if you're not immune, then it's quite possible for you to get this disease," he said.
> 
> He says adults under the age of 45 are most at risk, as they may not have received a vaccination.
> 
> "Basically anyone born during or after 1966 should be checking if they received two doses of MMR vaccine and if not, then our advice is to go along to your GP and get a free additional dose of MMR just to make sure," Dr Donohue said.
> 
> Townsville GP network chairman Dr Kevin Arlett says there has been a reduction in vaccinations over the last decade, and that could be disastrous.
> 
> "Because a lot of people haven't seen these diseases, there's been a whole generation basically who hasn't seen a lot of these infectious diseases," he said.
> 
> "People are feeling a little bit blase about it perhaps, but they're also being fed some information by some of the anti-vaccination lobby groups suggesting that vaccinations are more dangerous than the disease itself."
> 
> He says the Australian public may have forgotten what toll the measles disease can take on the human body.
> 
> "It can lead to all sorts of problems, but as [with] most viral infections it affects the whole body so you can end up with problems of the lungs, you can end up with problems with the brain and that's obviously where disasters occur," he said.
> 
> *There ended up being like 6 confirmed cases. Hardly an outbreak.*Click to expand...
> 
> 2010 is two years ago, clearly not what I was talking about
> 
> *The Australian Measles Control Campaign was initiated in August 1998 as part of the World Health Organisation's global Measles eradication program, and in response to major epidemics in Australia throughout 1994/95, together with a report predicting another impending measles epidemic in Australia. The campaign vaccinated 1.78 million children, making it the largest national vaccination campaign conducted in Australia since the introduction of poliomyelitis vaccination in 1956.*Click to expand...
> 
> I never had the vaccination, neither did majority of people my age. Why aren't we all dead hmm?Click to expand...

According to the statistics around 80/90 percent of people your age were vaccinated :shrug:

Edit: with the MMR. 53% fully vaccinated with the complete schedule


----------



## Leopard

MizzDeeDee said:


> Leopard said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lil_Pixie said:
> 
> 
> Do you honestly believe if the whole of Australia stopped vaccinating children wouldn't start getting, and dying from all these preventable diseases?
> 
> Close our borders, keep the foreigners out and the Aussies in and then yep, definitely.Click to expand...
> 
> :roll: Good luck with that.. and that's not the least bit offensive to others btw.
> 
> You know that's literally impossible.. right? Also, that means.. you all have to stay in.Click to expand...

I have no plans on leaving, why would I want to If Australia closed it's borders we would be fully self sufficient; and other countries would be pissed because they won't be getting their hands on our uranium nor our coal, nor our produce, nor anything that they keep on nicking.


----------



## Lil_Pixie

Oops! I must have been looking at The wrong thing. I though it looked a bit low!


----------



## Leopard

Natsku said:


> Leopard said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Natsku said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Leopard said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Natsku said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Leopard said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Natsku said:
> 
> 
> You're not going to respond to the numbers? There's a difference between what anti-vax people say will happen and what actually happens. Why do people still trust these anti-vax people?
> 
> Oh and I'm not responding to the numbers because no one within 200km of me has had the measles ever, and as I said, it was my generation, when most kids my age were not vaccinated any way.Click to expand...
> 
> They weren't vaccinated and then they had epidemics and were vaccinated and then they stopped having outbreaks...
> 
> And I'm pretty sure someone within 200km of you has had measles if there were mass out breaks 15 or so years agoClick to expand...
> 
> Measles outbreak alarms health authorities
> The World Today Josh Bavas
> Updated September 15, 2010 06:06:00
> 
> PHOTO: Health authorities say anyone born during or after 1966 should be checking to see if they received two doses of MMR vaccine.
> AUDIO: Queensland Health fears measles spread (The World Today)
> RELATED STORY: Traveller sparks NSW measles outbreakRELATED STORY: Measles cases recorded at Townsville hospitalRELATED STORY: More potential measles cases being investigated
> MAP: QLD
> Health authorities across New South Wales and Queensland are urging residents to make sure they are immunised against measles.
> 
> A spate of outbreaks across the eastern seaboard has doctors worried that a pandemic that was raging in South Africa during the World Cup is quietly spilling across the Indian Ocean.
> 
> GPs say the reluctance by some parents here to immunise their children has put the public in danger of a major outbreak.
> 
> Queensland Health officials believe the most recent case of measles was contracted by an adult from the state's north, who was returning home on a flight from South Africa last month.
> 
> Public medical officer Dr Steven Donohue says since then another two people have been infected in Townsville after they came into contact with the traveller.
> 
> "Measles is not a trivial illness - this thing is the worst of the childhood diseases [and] used to kill a lot of children," Dr Donohue said.
> 
> "In the last two weeks seven cases were confirmed at Tweed Heads on the New South Wales-Queensland border, and a local mine worker in Moranbah to the south-west of Mackay contracted the disease.
> 
> "Another two [people] in Townsville are still waiting on results."
> 
> Dr Donohue says he is concerned the disease is spreading undetected, as the time between contracting the virus and showing symptoms can be up to two weeks.
> 
> "You can walk past somebody with measles in a supermarket while they're infectious and if you're not immune, then it's quite possible for you to get this disease," he said.
> 
> He says adults under the age of 45 are most at risk, as they may not have received a vaccination.
> 
> "Basically anyone born during or after 1966 should be checking if they received two doses of MMR vaccine and if not, then our advice is to go along to your GP and get a free additional dose of MMR just to make sure," Dr Donohue said.
> 
> Townsville GP network chairman Dr Kevin Arlett says there has been a reduction in vaccinations over the last decade, and that could be disastrous.
> 
> "Because a lot of people haven't seen these diseases, there's been a whole generation basically who hasn't seen a lot of these infectious diseases," he said.
> 
> "People are feeling a little bit blase about it perhaps, but they're also being fed some information by some of the anti-vaccination lobby groups suggesting that vaccinations are more dangerous than the disease itself."
> 
> He says the Australian public may have forgotten what toll the measles disease can take on the human body.
> 
> "It can lead to all sorts of problems, but as [with] most viral infections it affects the whole body so you can end up with problems of the lungs, you can end up with problems with the brain and that's obviously where disasters occur," he said.
> 
> *There ended up being like 6 confirmed cases. Hardly an outbreak.*Click to expand...
> 
> 2010 is two years ago, clearly not what I was talking about
> 
> *The Australian Measles Control Campaign was initiated in August 1998 as part of the World Health Organisation's global Measles eradication program, and in response to major epidemics in Australia throughout 1994/95, together with a report predicting another impending measles epidemic in Australia. The campaign vaccinated 1.78 million children, making it the largest national vaccination campaign conducted in Australia since the introduction of poliomyelitis vaccination in 1956.*Click to expand...
> 
> I never had the vaccination, neither did majority of people my age. Why aren't we all dead hmm?Click to expand...
> 
> According to the statistics around 80/90 percent of people your age were vaccinated :shrug:
> 
> Edit: with the MMR. 53% fully vaccinated with the complete scheduleClick to expand...

And now old do you think I am?


----------



## Natsku

No tourists, no imports....I'm sure Australia would be just fine....


----------



## Lil_Pixie

International trade is not "nicking". It keeps the economy ticking over


----------



## Natsku

Leopard said:


> Natsku said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Leopard said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Natsku said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Leopard said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Natsku said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Leopard said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Natsku said:
> 
> 
> You're not going to respond to the numbers? There's a difference between what anti-vax people say will happen and what actually happens. Why do people still trust these anti-vax people?
> 
> Oh and I'm not responding to the numbers because no one within 200km of me has had the measles ever, and as I said, it was my generation, when most kids my age were not vaccinated any way.Click to expand...
> 
> They weren't vaccinated and then they had epidemics and were vaccinated and then they stopped having outbreaks...
> 
> And I'm pretty sure someone within 200km of you has had measles if there were mass out breaks 15 or so years agoClick to expand...
> 
> Measles outbreak alarms health authorities
> The World Today Josh Bavas
> Updated September 15, 2010 06:06:00
> 
> PHOTO: Health authorities say anyone born during or after 1966 should be checking to see if they received two doses of MMR vaccine.
> AUDIO: Queensland Health fears measles spread (The World Today)
> RELATED STORY: Traveller sparks NSW measles outbreakRELATED STORY: Measles cases recorded at Townsville hospitalRELATED STORY: More potential measles cases being investigated
> MAP: QLD
> Health authorities across New South Wales and Queensland are urging residents to make sure they are immunised against measles.
> 
> A spate of outbreaks across the eastern seaboard has doctors worried that a pandemic that was raging in South Africa during the World Cup is quietly spilling across the Indian Ocean.
> 
> GPs say the reluctance by some parents here to immunise their children has put the public in danger of a major outbreak.
> 
> Queensland Health officials believe the most recent case of measles was contracted by an adult from the state's north, who was returning home on a flight from South Africa last month.
> 
> Public medical officer Dr Steven Donohue says since then another two people have been infected in Townsville after they came into contact with the traveller.
> 
> "Measles is not a trivial illness - this thing is the worst of the childhood diseases [and] used to kill a lot of children," Dr Donohue said.
> 
> "In the last two weeks seven cases were confirmed at Tweed Heads on the New South Wales-Queensland border, and a local mine worker in Moranbah to the south-west of Mackay contracted the disease.
> 
> "Another two [people] in Townsville are still waiting on results."
> 
> Dr Donohue says he is concerned the disease is spreading undetected, as the time between contracting the virus and showing symptoms can be up to two weeks.
> 
> "You can walk past somebody with measles in a supermarket while they're infectious and if you're not immune, then it's quite possible for you to get this disease," he said.
> 
> He says adults under the age of 45 are most at risk, as they may not have received a vaccination.
> 
> "Basically anyone born during or after 1966 should be checking if they received two doses of MMR vaccine and if not, then our advice is to go along to your GP and get a free additional dose of MMR just to make sure," Dr Donohue said.
> 
> Townsville GP network chairman Dr Kevin Arlett says there has been a reduction in vaccinations over the last decade, and that could be disastrous.
> 
> "Because a lot of people haven't seen these diseases, there's been a whole generation basically who hasn't seen a lot of these infectious diseases," he said.
> 
> "People are feeling a little bit blase about it perhaps, but they're also being fed some information by some of the anti-vaccination lobby groups suggesting that vaccinations are more dangerous than the disease itself."
> 
> He says the Australian public may have forgotten what toll the measles disease can take on the human body.
> 
> "It can lead to all sorts of problems, but as [with] most viral infections it affects the whole body so you can end up with problems of the lungs, you can end up with problems with the brain and that's obviously where disasters occur," he said.
> 
> *There ended up being like 6 confirmed cases. Hardly an outbreak.*Click to expand...
> 
> 2010 is two years ago, clearly not what I was talking about
> 
> *The Australian Measles Control Campaign was initiated in August 1998 as part of the World Health Organisation's global Measles eradication program, and in response to major epidemics in Australia throughout 1994/95, together with a report predicting another impending measles epidemic in Australia. The campaign vaccinated 1.78 million children, making it the largest national vaccination campaign conducted in Australia since the introduction of poliomyelitis vaccination in 1956.*Click to expand...
> 
> I never had the vaccination, neither did majority of people my age. Why aren't we all dead hmm?Click to expand...
> 
> According to the statistics around 80/90 percent of people your age were vaccinated :shrug:
> 
> Edit: with the MMR. 53% fully vaccinated with the complete scheduleClick to expand...
> 
> And now old do you think I am?Click to expand...

Well the writing under your name says you're a teen mum so 19 or under.


----------



## Leopard

Natsku said:


> Leopard said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Natsku said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Leopard said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Natsku said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Leopard said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Natsku said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Leopard said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Natsku said:
> 
> 
> You're not going to respond to the numbers? There's a difference between what anti-vax people say will happen and what actually happens. Why do people still trust these anti-vax people?
> 
> Oh and I'm not responding to the numbers because no one within 200km of me has had the measles ever, and as I said, it was my generation, when most kids my age were not vaccinated any way.Click to expand...
> 
> They weren't vaccinated and then they had epidemics and were vaccinated and then they stopped having outbreaks...
> 
> And I'm pretty sure someone within 200km of you has had measles if there were mass out breaks 15 or so years agoClick to expand...
> 
> Measles outbreak alarms health authorities
> The World Today Josh Bavas
> Updated September 15, 2010 06:06:00
> 
> PHOTO: Health authorities say anyone born during or after 1966 should be checking to see if they received two doses of MMR vaccine.
> AUDIO: Queensland Health fears measles spread (The World Today)
> RELATED STORY: Traveller sparks NSW measles outbreakRELATED STORY: Measles cases recorded at Townsville hospitalRELATED STORY: More potential measles cases being investigated
> MAP: QLD
> Health authorities across New South Wales and Queensland are urging residents to make sure they are immunised against measles.
> 
> A spate of outbreaks across the eastern seaboard has doctors worried that a pandemic that was raging in South Africa during the World Cup is quietly spilling across the Indian Ocean.
> 
> GPs say the reluctance by some parents here to immunise their children has put the public in danger of a major outbreak.
> 
> Queensland Health officials believe the most recent case of measles was contracted by an adult from the state's north, who was returning home on a flight from South Africa last month.
> 
> Public medical officer Dr Steven Donohue says since then another two people have been infected in Townsville after they came into contact with the traveller.
> 
> "Measles is not a trivial illness - this thing is the worst of the childhood diseases [and] used to kill a lot of children," Dr Donohue said.
> 
> "In the last two weeks seven cases were confirmed at Tweed Heads on the New South Wales-Queensland border, and a local mine worker in Moranbah to the south-west of Mackay contracted the disease.
> 
> "Another two [people] in Townsville are still waiting on results."
> 
> Dr Donohue says he is concerned the disease is spreading undetected, as the time between contracting the virus and showing symptoms can be up to two weeks.
> 
> "You can walk past somebody with measles in a supermarket while they're infectious and if you're not immune, then it's quite possible for you to get this disease," he said.
> 
> He says adults under the age of 45 are most at risk, as they may not have received a vaccination.
> 
> "Basically anyone born during or after 1966 should be checking if they received two doses of MMR vaccine and if not, then our advice is to go along to your GP and get a free additional dose of MMR just to make sure," Dr Donohue said.
> 
> Townsville GP network chairman Dr Kevin Arlett says there has been a reduction in vaccinations over the last decade, and that could be disastrous.
> 
> "Because a lot of people haven't seen these diseases, there's been a whole generation basically who hasn't seen a lot of these infectious diseases," he said.
> 
> "People are feeling a little bit blase about it perhaps, but they're also being fed some information by some of the anti-vaccination lobby groups suggesting that vaccinations are more dangerous than the disease itself."
> 
> He says the Australian public may have forgotten what toll the measles disease can take on the human body.
> 
> "It can lead to all sorts of problems, but as [with] most viral infections it affects the whole body so you can end up with problems of the lungs, you can end up with problems with the brain and that's obviously where disasters occur," he said.
> 
> *There ended up being like 6 confirmed cases. Hardly an outbreak.*Click to expand...
> 
> 2010 is two years ago, clearly not what I was talking about
> 
> *The Australian Measles Control Campaign was initiated in August 1998 as part of the World Health Organisation's global Measles eradication program, and in response to major epidemics in Australia throughout 1994/95, together with a report predicting another impending measles epidemic in Australia. The campaign vaccinated 1.78 million children, making it the largest national vaccination campaign conducted in Australia since the introduction of poliomyelitis vaccination in 1956.*Click to expand...
> 
> I never had the vaccination, neither did majority of people my age. Why aren't we all dead hmm?Click to expand...
> 
> According to the statistics around 80/90 percent of people your age were vaccinated :shrug:
> 
> Edit: with the MMR. 53% fully vaccinated with the complete scheduleClick to expand...
> 
> And now old do you think I am?Click to expand...
> 
> Well the writing under your name says you're a teen mum so 19 or under.Click to expand...

18, therefore born when this supposed outbreak took place.


----------



## Leopard

Lil_Pixie said:


> International trade is not "nicking". It keeps the economy ticking over

Actually it is dragging our economy under. Wall street and American debt is killing us.


----------



## Natsku

Fed up on quoting.

The 1994 schedule had 92% immunised against measles. Do you still want to say the majority of your age group weren't vaccinated?


----------



## Leopard

Natsku said:


> Fed up on quoting.
> 
> The 1994 schedule had 92% immunised against measles. Do you still want to say the majority of your age group weren't vaccinated?

Yep because I can only name *3* people locally, my age, who have been vaccinated. 
Personally I've only had my rubella.


----------



## MizzDeeDee

Leopard said:


> MizzDeeDee said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Leopard said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lil_Pixie said:
> 
> 
> Do you honestly believe if the whole of Australia stopped vaccinating children wouldn't start getting, and dying from all these preventable diseases?
> 
> Close our borders, keep the foreigners out and the Aussies in and then yep, definitely.Click to expand...
> 
> :roll: Good luck with that.. and that's not the least bit offensive to others btw.
> 
> You know that's literally impossible.. right? Also, that means.. you all have to stay in.Click to expand...
> 
> I have no plans on leaving, why would I want to If Australia closed it's borders we would be fully self sufficient; and other countries would be pissed because they won't be getting their hands on our uranium nor our coal, nor our produce, nor anything that they keep on nicking.Click to expand...


You would have no tourists.
No one could ever leave.
And nothing could ever be imported.

Your economy would tank because you wouldn't have any exports either... and you would still have viruses because it's animals that are reservoirs(carriers) for viruses. They can mutate and then become contagious to humans.


----------



## Natsku

Maybe you don't know enough people? Or people actually don't remember. My mum couldn't remember if I had my MMR so I ended up getting another booster done at uni.

Your personal knowledge of local people doesn't outweigh the facts I'm afraid.

Sorry, as amusing as this is, I really must sleep now, have to get up at stupid o'clock in the morning tomorrow :(


----------



## Leopard

MizzDeeDee said:


> Leopard said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MizzDeeDee said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Leopard said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lil_Pixie said:
> 
> 
> Do you honestly believe if the whole of Australia stopped vaccinating children wouldn't start getting, and dying from all these preventable diseases?
> 
> Close our borders, keep the foreigners out and the Aussies in and then yep, definitely.Click to expand...
> 
> :roll: Good luck with that.. and that's not the least bit offensive to others btw.
> 
> You know that's literally impossible.. right? Also, that means.. you all have to stay in.Click to expand...
> 
> I have no plans on leaving, why would I want to If Australia closed it's borders we would be fully self sufficient; and other countries would be pissed because they won't be getting their hands on our uranium nor our coal, nor our produce, nor anything that they keep on nicking.Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You would have no tourists.
> No one could ever leave.
> And nothing could ever be imported.
> 
> Your economy would tank because you wouldn't have any exports either... and you would still have viruses because it's animals that are reservoirs(carriers) for viruses. They can mutate and then become contagious to humans.Click to expand...

Very few diseases are carried by animals here. Koalas carry clamydia, cats carry colds and bats carry a horse virus too. We don't need exports, we survived on a great barter and gold system when we because partially independent. TBh the world would be a better place without money.


----------



## Leopard

Natsku said:


> Maybe you don't know enough people? Or people actually don't remember. My mum couldn't remember if I had my MMR so I ended up getting another booster done at uni.
> 
> Your personal knowledge of local people doesn't outweigh the facts I'm afraid.
> 
> Sorry, as amusing as this is, I really must sleep now, have to get up at stupid o'clock in the morning tomorrow :(

We have all our vaccination records on hand. As you should.


----------



## Lil_Pixie

Leopard said:


> whit. said:
> 
> 
> Leopard, I guess I just don't understand how you know you will have a reaction to shots if you've never had them.
> 
> 
> I didn't leave with Sophia for 2 weeks when the measles outbreak happened 3 hours from me. I'm still very cautious going out. I would hate for her to catch something that could be preventable with a shot, that she hasn't had yet.
> 
> I'm not sure I understand what you mean by how I know I'll have a reaction if I don't have them? I've had almost all my shots, except for chicken pox, pertussis and the flu shots. (though I did have 2 flu shots when I was younger and ended up in critical care).Click to expand...




Leopard said:


> Natsku said:
> 
> 
> Fed up on quoting.
> 
> The 1994 schedule had 92% immunised against measles. Do you still want to say the majority of your age group weren't vaccinated?
> 
> Yep because I can only name *3* people locally, my age, who have been vaccinated.
> Personally I've only had my rubella.Click to expand...

I thought you'd had almost all of yours?


----------



## Leopard

Lil_Pixie said:


> Leopard said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> whit. said:
> 
> 
> Leopard, I guess I just don't understand how you know you will have a reaction to shots if you've never had them.
> 
> 
> I didn't leave with Sophia for 2 weeks when the measles outbreak happened 3 hours from me. I'm still very cautious going out. I would hate for her to catch something that could be preventable with a shot, that she hasn't had yet.
> 
> I'm not sure I understand what you mean by how I know I'll have a reaction if I don't have them? I've had almost all my shots, except for chicken pox, pertussis and the flu shots. (though I did have 2 flu shots when I was younger and ended up in critical care).Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Leopard said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Natsku said:
> 
> 
> Fed up on quoting.
> 
> The 1994 schedule had 92% immunised against measles. Do you still want to say the majority of your age group weren't vaccinated?Click to expand...
> 
> Yep because I can only name *3* people locally, my age, who have been vaccinated.
> Personally I've only had my rubella.Click to expand...
> 
> I thought you'd had almost all of yours?Click to expand...

We were discussing the MMR lol


----------



## Lil_Pixie

we were discussing vaccinations.


----------



## Lil_Pixie

Ok, my baby only sleeps a few hrs a night and I've already missed 1.5 of them!


----------



## Leopard

Lil_Pixie said:


> Ok, my baby only sleeps a few hrs a night and I've already missed 1.5 of them!

The last 3 pages have been about the MMR. Now go get some sleep.


----------



## pinklightbulb

I'm in Tasmania. There was a measles 'outbreak' in Launceston where about 6 cases were recorded. This is 1.5 hours away from me. The disease was brought in by someone from the mainland IIRC who was on holiday. 
There were also 37 cases of whooping cough in my city very recently. I'm FAR more worried about that than measles, mumps (where I can't remember any recorded cases in my state/region recently), or rubella (which I don't think is that common around here either incidentally.) If I don't give the MMR, simply put, I'm not that worried about E contracting anything. 
But now all these cases of whooping cough are about again you can bet I will be getting him done. As far as I know, WC has a higher rate of death than any of the MMR, at least in my region of the world.


----------



## whit.

*EDITED*

I would hate for any child to get a disease that could potentially be fatal, knowing there is a vaccination out there that could have *helped* prevent it.


----------



## pinklightbulb

They can still get it when they are vaxed. My OH got all three MMR and was vaxed :shrug: Mum got rubella in her pg with my brother when she was vaxed and he's profoundly deaf and has brain damage. She never produced antibodies. And my OH did produce them but clearly not enough to prevent him still contracting all three.
Vaxing isn't 100% protection. I don't know why on these threads people continously behave as if they are. They're not...


----------



## whit.

"Disease prevention is the key to public health. It is always better to prevent a disease than to treat it. Vaccines prevent disease in the people who receive them and protect those who come into contact with unvaccinated individuals. Vaccines help prevent infectious diseases and save lives. Vaccines are responsible for the control of many infectious diseases that were once common in this country, including polio, measles, diphtheria, pertussis (whooping cough), rubella (German measles), mumps, tetanus, and Haemophilus influenzae type b (Hib).

Vaccine-preventable diseases have a costly impact, resulting in doctor's visits, hospitalizations, and premature deaths. Sick children can also cause parents to lose time from work.

Each child is born with a full immune system composed of cells, glands, organs, and fluids that are located throughout his or her body to fight invading bacteria and viruses. The immune system recognizes germs that enter the body as "foreign" invaders, or antigens, and produces protein substances called antibodies to fight them. A normal, healthy immune system has the ability to produce millions of these antibodies to defend against thousands of attacks every day, doing it so naturally that people are not even aware they are being attacked and defended so often (Whitney, 1990). Many antibodies disappear once they have destroyed the invading antigens, but the cells involved in antibody production remain and become "memory cells." Memory cells remember the original antigen and then defend against it when the antigen attempts to re-infect a person, even after many decades. This protection is called immunity.

Vaccines contain the same antigens or parts of antigens that cause diseases, but the antigens in vaccines are either killed or greatly weakened. When they are injected into fatty tissue or muscle, vaccine antigens are not strong enough to produce the symptoms and signs of the disease but are strong enough for the immune system to produce antibodies against them (Tortora and Anagnostakos, 1981). The memory cells that remain prevent re-infection when they encounter that disease in the future. Thus, through vaccination, children develop immunity without suffering from the actual diseases that vaccines prevent."


----------



## pinklightbulb

I am not anti-vax, like I keep stating in this thread I *wanted* to have my son done. There is not any need to show me facts, I know them all :flower: I know my son is safer vaxed than not. I just like to play devil's advocate a bit. I could vax E and he could be like my OH and Mum and not take to them. It is never 100% protection. Or I wouldn't have a deaf brother and an OH who's had MMR despite being vaxed. That's all I'm trying to point out. Lots of pro-vaxers make statements like the one above about hating to see a child contract something that could have been prevented by vaxing. I'm just saying that it doesn't always mean something that someone has been vaxed.


----------



## whit.

Vaccinations *are* to help prevent, though. That's all I'm saying.


----------



## Eve

and your key word is *help*.


----------



## whit.

:dohh:


----------



## Eve

tommyg said:


> Eve said:
> 
> 
> Malnutrition and the lack of safe water and sanitation contribute to half of all these childrens deaths. Research and experience show that most of the children who die each year could be saved by low-tech, evidence-based, cost-effective measures such as vaccines, antibiotics, micronutrient supplementation, insecticide-treated bed nets, improved family care and breastfeeding practices [8], and oral rehydration therapy[9]. In addition to providing vaccines and antibiotics to children, education could also be provided to mothers about how they can make simple changes to living conditions such as improving hygiene in order to increase the health of their children. Mothers who are educated will also have increased confidence in the ability to take care of their children, therefore providing a healthier relationship and environment for them.
> 
> According to the World Health Organization, the main causes of death are pneumonia, diarrhea, malaria, measles, and HIV. Malnutrition is estimated to contribute to more than one third of all child deaths.[14] 1 child dies every 5 seconds as a result of hunger - 700 every hour - 16 000 each day - 6 million each year - 60% of all child deaths (2002-2008 estimates)
> 
> I assume your refering to my comment 1 in 5 die because of the lack of vaccines in Seria Leone, the is what they were saying on the Sport Relief programe on our TVs on Saturday. It is an appeal to raise cash for various causes and one short clip they were in a hospital in Seria Leona appealing for money for vaccines. None of the Children looked malnurished, nor were they starving they appeared to be getting reasonable medical care but they couldn't save them. Prevention is better than Cure.Click to expand...

What I wrote was ALL talking about Seria Leone...


----------



## Eve

whit. said:


> :dohh:

I was just saying that yes, they *help* prevent.


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## Eve

I'm not anti-vax either. My daughter *is* vaccinated and so *is* my son. I just think questioning it is a good thing...


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## whit.

I'm not questioning any thing that you guys posted, at all. I just think some of the comments previously were a bit silly (not either of yours, that I remember), and I think most people would do whatever they could do to help prevent any illnesses, right?

I don't have a problem with people not vaccinating and making informed decisions.


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## steph.

Leopard said:


> MizzDeeDee said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Leopard said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lil_Pixie said:
> 
> 
> Do you honestly believe if the whole of Australia stopped vaccinating children wouldn't start getting, and dying from all these preventable diseases?
> 
> Close our borders, keep the foreigners out and the Aussies in and then yep, definitely.Click to expand...
> 
> :roll: Good luck with that.. and that's not the least bit offensive to others btw.
> 
> You know that's literally impossible.. right? Also, that means.. you all have to stay in.Click to expand...
> 
> I have no plans on leaving, why would I want to If Australia closed it's borders we would be fully self sufficient; and other countries would be pissed because they won't be getting their hands on our uranium nor our coal, nor our produce, nor anything that they keep on nicking.Click to expand...

Surely you cant really believe this??? Australia paid for me to come over from the UK because they were desperate for doctors. About 25 of my colleagues alone nwere brought over too. My husband works in engineering( he is australian), and about half his colleagues are from europe, again brought over all expenses paid because australia doesnt have enough professionals. That is just one aspect of it, not to mention money and jobs from tourists, imports, exports ect. In this day and age no country would do well if they closed their borders.:dohh:


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## Natsku

Eve said:


> I'm not anti-vax either. My daughter *is* vaccinated and so *is* my son. I just think questioning it is a good thing...

Its definitely good to question, especially when it comes to our health as doctors aren't infalliable but its just some people blatently deny facts (not you, I know!)


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## Vrinda

I absolutely agree " Prevention is better than cure " yes it is. And its also cost effective no doubt. The only thing I want to discuss is about the vaccine-prevention and effects from vaccine itself. And yes I am vaccinating as you already know from the beginning of my posts. I just am concerned about some vaccines especially the hexavaccines and MMR (not opposed to single vaccines or individual vaccines ykwim and no not because of its autism link but other things)

Thank you all again for your time and your inputs, I really appreciate it


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## Natsku

Can I ask what other things?


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## Vrinda

> I absolutely agree " Prevention is better than cure " yes it is. And its also cost effective no doubt. The only thing I want to discuss is about the vaccine-prevention and effects from vaccine itself. And yes I am vaccinating as you already know from the beginning of my posts. I just am concerned about some vaccines especially the hexavaccines and MMR (not opposed to single vaccines or individual vaccines ykwim and no not because of its autism link but other things)
> 
> Thank you all again for your time and your inputs, I really appreciate it




Natsku said:


> Can I ask what other things?

Seizures, allergies, brain damage etc lack of safety studies and so on

Edit I was going to speak about cancer, and don't know if there a link established yet, however cancer rates increasing due failing immunity to fight other diseases. I am not even saying about any direct cause, but see, your body's preparing to fight the disease you introduce vaccine, does it have impact on other aspects of immunity thats what keeps me thinking.


As with the MMR I have a question why is everyone talking only about measles what about mumps and rubella. I read that rubella can be serious for a pregnant women, so why its important to give at 15 month age? Sorry but I am not attacking pro vacciners here, I just am curious to know. What do you think about the mumps and rubella that comes along MMR vaccination?


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## Lil_Pixie

Can you show us any evidence that mmr causes cancer seizures or brain damage? 

I cant find anything on cancer at all and the only thing I can find on seizures or brain damage says its so rare there's no way to even be sure I was caused by the vaccine.


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## Natsku

I'd like some evidence as well.

Its important because it protects pregnant women. If a mother has one child and is pregnant again, it is of course important that her child is vaccinated to lessen the risks of that child passing rubella onto the pregnant mother. 

Vaccinations don't just protect the person they are given to but also the people around them.


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## tommyg

The MMR vaccine are said to be more effective than the single vaccines.

The reason mumps is given is because of the complications that can occure, 

While some of the complications aren't an issue until after puberty others are an issue even in childhood. 

Given it is regarded as a common childhood illness pre-MMR I would also think they give it to 15 month olds to try and prevent the spread of the illness in nurserys, schools, playgroups and any other place that LO's meet. Their will also be an element of "herd immunity" if you vaccinate all children then their is less chance of it being spread amonst them and into vunerable adults, like cancer sufferers. 

Rubella used to be given to 11/12 year old girls only, as previously discussed, but again to try and prevent the spread of it in the community it is given to all children. You could argue their is still no need for boys to have it but if it makes the whole MMR more effective then why not?

But as we've also previously heard I can't remember who it was the Rubella jag just didn't work for them so their must be an element of "this jag works and we want to prevent the spread of the illness so lets include it for boys too".

I am ttc #2. How do I know my rubella worked for me? If DS isn't immunised how do I know he isn't going to bring rubella home from nursery along with the numberous other bugs he's brought home to me? That could then affect #2 if it happens. While the likelyhood of that happening is small I wouldn't like to be the unlucky 1 in 1000 or whatever the odds are.


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## tommyg

Natsku said:


> I'd like some evidence as well.
> 
> Its important because it protects pregnant women. If a mother has one child and is pregnant again, it is of course important that her child is vaccinated to lessen the risks of that child passing rubella onto the pregnant mother.
> 
> *Vaccinations don't just protect the person they are given to but also the people around them*.

How did you manage to say in a sentance, what took me war & peace to say?:haha:


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## Natsku

tommyg said:


> Natsku said:
> 
> 
> I'd like some evidence as well.
> 
> Its important because it protects pregnant women. If a mother has one child and is pregnant again, it is of course important that her child is vaccinated to lessen the risks of that child passing rubella onto the pregnant mother.
> 
> *Vaccinations don't just protect the person they are given to but also the people around them*.
> 
> How did you manage to say in a sentance, what took me war & peace to say?:haha:Click to expand...

It helps to be too lazy to write an essay :winkwink:


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## tommyg

:rofl::rofl:


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## Ozzieshunni

Wow. Just wow. I just don't even have the words.


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## Ozzieshunni

^^Yes, Whit. It's a major first for me :rofl:


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## Lil_Pixie

Preemptive. I like it!


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## lisa1980

Re cancer and vaccines.

I'm yet to see any convincing evidence of this. The increase in cancer rates could just as easily, and possibly more convincingly, be explained by the fact that we live longer, are better at diagnosing it, plus environmental factors etc etc. There are many things mutating our DNA every day, and there have been as long as humans have existed. It's more amazing to me that we don't ALL get cancer, seeing as it only takes a point mutation in a gene to go awry.

As an aside, there's probably more evidence that viruses cause cancer, eg cervical cancer and HPV. The vaccination in this case is to try to prevent cancers caused by the virus, rather than the other way round. If you want a spectacularly good immune system it would probably be best to avoid sanitation and washing too, but I reckon the bugs would win that fight :winkwink:.

Again, just my opinion, but I reiterate that I prefer to make choices based on the PROVEN risks of things (like diseases) versus the speculated risk of other things (like vaccines). 

But each to there own. You can always find 'evidence' against anything if you're determined to find it, and no amount of arguing can counteract internet scaremongering I often think. The view that 'nature' is best is a difficult one for me, as it is often true, but it is also true that mother nature can be a witch and will try to kill or harm you on a regular basis, indiscriminately. Disease and death is 'natural' and used to be the norm (still is in much of the world :nope:). 

:flower:


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## Eve

I am not saying they cause cancer, who knows. Hell vaccines might even do more good than we know. I just worry that it could be a posibility and I really hope it doesn't heighten my son or daughter's chance to suffer for years, before dying with cancer. I hope all the people are right about the risks involved (or not I guess) Like I said before, smoking wasn't bad, hell some said it was good for you, no one felt seatbelts were needed, cereal in baby bottles was advised by more than one doctor. Things change and we are given new information daily on what is best. Vaccines have been changed, to be more effective, and dangerous ones have been removed. 
I just think everyone should realize that nothing is without risk and when we are grandparents, who knows what we will find out vaccines did to our generation etc...
I am not saying it will be like this, but it's possible. 
It is the unknown as of yet that worries me more than anything.


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## Lil_Pixie

I completely understand what you're saying there Eve. It would be wonderful if we could fast forward to see how it'll turn out before we do anything. Unfortunately only time will tell, and we have to make desicions base on the info we have available to us right now. I choose to trust the evidence that suggests my son will only benefit from the protection the vaccines provide. But of course everyone should look into it for themselves and draw their own conclusion. I just think it should be an informed choice, if there's no evidence that vaccines cause cancer then cancer should not be used as a reason not to vaccinate.

Im sure Nat can say it in one line lol


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## lisa1980

Eve, I can understand your fears, really I can (I took my LO for his jabs yesterday and, although i never doubted it was best for him, I still hate having to put him through it on the day).

I know that things change and evidence changes, but all we can do is go on the best evidence at the time - it's impossible to predict the future, and if you read the studies and are happy with the methodology and conclusions then that's the best you can do. Research methods have changed a lot since thalidamide days, which can only be a good thing.

Vaccines MAY be shown to have some negative affects in the future, but I'm willing to risk it versus the known risks of the diseases they protect against. Cancer is unfortunately caused by many, many things that you can't avoid; DNA mutation is just an inevitabililty and there's a huge amount of luck as to whether it progresses to anything or not. The evidence against vaccines is less than the evidence against sausages when it comes to cancer I'd say.

I think sometimes it feels 'safer' NOT to do something than to do it, as it feels like less of an active decision IYKWIM? Like it's out of your hands and not a choice you made...and I can understand that, but for me I have to weigh it up in my head and do what is right (IMO) for my son, as I couldn't live with myself otherwise. That's just the way I feel about it, but again, each to their own. :flower:


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## lisa1980

Well said Lil Pixie (and in many less words than me :winkwink:)


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## Eve

That is why I do vaccinate. I decided to delay, and I did opt out of the chicken pox one for now. She still needs her 18 month-2 year vaccines but even my doctor said that was perfectly fine to wait until she is going to school for it. I do not want my daughter ill... I did a lot of reading and asking around when it came to vaccines. I spoke with my doctor and the nurse as well. I wasn't going to get her first bout of MMR at 20 months, but we had cases of Measles in Canada out west I believe, so I decided obviously it was in our best interest to get it at that point. 

Some people are scaremongering about vaccines. My page on FB has a lot of ladies who are anti-vax and some honestly made me feel like I was injecting loads of rat poison into my daughter. That is the stuff I do not agree with.


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## Natsku

Lil_Pixie said:


> I completely understand what you're saying there Eve. It would be wonderful if we could fast forward to see how it'll turn out before we do anything. Unfortunately only time will tell, and we have to make desicions base on the info we have available to us right now. I choose to trust the evidence that suggests my son will only benefit from the protection the vaccines provide. But of course everyone should look into it for themselves and draw their own conclusion. I just think it should be an informed choice, if there's no evidence that vaccines cause cancer then cancer should not be used as a reason not to vaccinate.
> 
> Im sure Nat can say it in one line lol

Hmm let me try...

Unless someone invents a time machine we have to go with what we know, and what we know is that prevention is preferable to curing.


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## Eve

Nats has done it again!


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## Natsku

Hmm maybe I should go for a career in thought compressing - compressing long drawn out thoughts into single sentences! Now just to find someone who would pay me for that...


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## Eve

I totally get what you all are saying too. I just felt like this thread was so negative toward anyone who isn't vaccinating. I know some have good reasons to be upset over people deciding not to vaccinate, I really do, but I felt like some comments were really implying that anyone who doesn't vaccinate (unless their LO has health conditions) is uneducated and irresponsible. I just wanted people to know that wasn't always the case and mutual understanding needs to be somewhere in the conversation.


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## Eve

Natsku said:


> Hmm maybe I should go for a career in thought compressing - compressing long drawn out thoughts into single sentences! Now just to find someone who would pay me for that...

I know there are days I would! :haha:


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## Lil_Pixie

If I had one I'd take my hat off to you


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## lisa1980

Eve said:


> I totally get what you all are saying too. I just felt like this thread was so negative toward anyone who isn't vaccinating. I know some have good reasons to be upset over people deciding not to vaccinate, I really do, but I felt like some comments were really implying that anyone who doesn't vaccinate (unless their LO has health conditions) is uneducated and irresponsible. I just wanted people to know that wasn't always the case and mutual understanding needs to be somewhere in the conversation.

I completely understand why some people are scared of vaccinating and choose not to. There's a lot of scaremongering about and EVERYONE justs wants to do what's best for their child. I just wish that the more extreme anti-vax groups used reliable evidence to promote their cause rather than anecdotal/biased stuff which just serves to terrify people needlessly, as it doesn't prove anything. It's the idea that all doctors/scientists are secretly promoting things that they KNOW harm children which upsets me, not genuine concerns.

I think scaremongering from either side is awful and it doesn't help anyone. :flower:


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## Ozzieshunni

I think that there has to be a valid reason for not vaccinating, as I've said before waaaaaaaay back at the beginning of the thread :lol:

Medical reasons and violent allergic reactions to the vaccines are the two that stand out in my mind. However, just because one child has a reaction doesn't mean another child in the family will have the same reaction. It's up to parents to use credible medical sources to decide and consult closely with their doctors. I think that people are scared of doctors. I learned a long time ago that I need to be assertive and be my own advocate. Ask questions. Explain your fears/concerns. This is the only way we can be satisfied with our medical care. If you aren't, it's time to see a different doctor.


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## Eve

Immediate reactions never really worried me oddly, not until a friend had her young daughter get the h1n1 vaccine and now suffers from siezures (first one within hours of the shot). I still got it as I was pregnant and still had my son done, but after that I did worry more about what could happen with new vaccines etc...


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## lisa1980

^WSS (to Ozzie)

It needs to be an _informed_ choice based on actual evidence rather than hearsay IMO.

Doctors are people too, and some are better than others. I think that they should always be able to explain _why_ they are recommending something and point you towards studies etc so you can make your own decision, as at the end of the day it is _your_ decision to make, as it should be. 

If not, as PP said, you can always ask for a second opinion.


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## DLA

lisa1980 said:


> Eve said:
> 
> 
> I totally get what you all are saying too. I just felt like this thread was so negative toward anyone who isn't vaccinating. I know some have good reasons to be upset over people deciding not to vaccinate, I really do, but I felt like some comments were really implying that anyone who doesn't vaccinate (unless their LO has health conditions) is uneducated and irresponsible. I just wanted people to know that wasn't always the case and mutual understanding needs to be somewhere in the conversation.
> 
> I completely understand why some people are scared of vaccinating and choose not to. There's a lot of scaremongering about and EVERYONE justs wants to do what's best for their child. I just wish that the more extreme anti-vax groups used reliable evidence to promote their cause rather than anecdotal/biased stuff which just serves to terrify people needlessly, as it doesn't prove anything. It's the idea that all doctors/scientists are secretly promoting things that they KNOW harm children which upsets me, not genuine concerns.
> 
> I think scaremongering from either side is awful and it doesn't help anyone. :flower:Click to expand...

Agree with this. There are no guarantees. No guarantee that your child won't have a reaction, no guarantee that they won't catch something anyway. But those risks are far smaller than the risk not vaccinating poses, which would be a higher likelihood of cathing or passing on one of these illnesses. Maybe you will get lucky and never get sick but I'm not taking that chance with my son, personally. No matter what you do there is some kind of risk.

I am in agreement that it's scary no matter what you do as a parent. I was a wreck when my son had his 1st shots.


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## lisa1980

Eve said:


> Immediate reactions never really worried me oddly, not until a friend had her young daughter get the h1n1 vaccine and now suffers from siezures (first one within hours of the shot). I still got it as I was pregnant and still had my son done, but after that I did worry more about what could happen with new vaccines etc...

But was the seizure directly related to the ingredients of the shot or was it a febrile seizure caused by the fever that can happen after some jabs?

I'm absolutely NOT saying that it definitely wasn't the shot, but just pointing out that sometimes it can look like it when there are other things at play. Febrile seizures are common in young children and can happen due to fever from any cause, so if the baby had caught the disease the vaccine was for it probably would have happened then too....there's no predicting it as it can be sporadic.


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## Eve

I am not sure, but I know she has them quite regularly now.


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## Eve

I just remember how scared and upset she was, and I felt terrible. She asked for a while on FB to those who had the vaccine, how it went etc.. as she was so worried to get her kids done. I said that I think it's fine (I didn't have ours done yet) and told her not to worry, and then that happened. Could have been a coincidence for all I know, but she was so upset and blamed the vaccine, and I felt so bad as I basically talked her into getting it.


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## Leopard

:rofl: was talking to a close mummy friend of mine today. I was wrong :dohh: I admit I now know someone locally who has had the measles. (where is a bowing emote when you need one?). HOWEVER, here's the clincher. The one who got the measles (she got it twice) had her full MMR vaccinations, shes also had the mumps and rubella (wow) and was obviously vaccinated against them. Healthiest kid ever, hasn't been the the doctors in 4.5yrs.


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## lisa1980

Eve said:


> I just remember how scared and upset she was, and I felt terrible. She asked for a while on FB to those who had the vaccine, how it went etc.. as she was so worried to get her kids done. I said that I think it's fine (I didn't have ours done yet) and told her not to worry, and then that happened. Could have been a coincidence for all I know, but she was so upset and blamed the vaccine, and I felt so bad as I basically talked her into getting it.

:hugs: It's totally not your fault, and it isn't _anyone's_ fault. You did the same as I (and most people I think) would have done in that situation :flower:

If she has seizures regularly now it seems that she probably has some tendancy towards them (again I'm speculating as I don't know) which she probably has always had. Her first seizure _could_ have been triggered by a fever after the jab (more likely than the jab itself IMO) but _something_ would probably have triggered it at some point anyway, any fever from any illness. If she hadn't had the jab and had gotten an illness with a high fever, it potentially could have been even worse I suppose.

Seizures are terrifying and I can understand her mother's fear but sometimes the jabs get blamed for things which would have happened regardless, as it's easier to have something to blame than to accept that things 'just happen' (the same happened with the MMR).

We're all human, and can sympathise with that, and as mothers it's all too easy to blame ourselves for anything bad that happens to our LOs - it's in our genes! But in most cases there's nothing anyone could have done to change things, which is difficult to accept :flower:


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## lisa1980

Leopard said:


> :rofl: was talking to a close mummy friend of mine today. I was wrong :dohh: I admit I now know someone locally who has had the measles. (where is a bowing emote when you need one?). HOWEVER, here's the clincher. The one who got the measles (she got it twice) had her full MMR vaccinations, shes also had the mumps and rubella (wow) and was obviously vaccinated against them. Healthiest kid ever, hasn't been the the doctors in 4.5yrs.

The vaccines don't necessarily stop you from getting the diseases (I had all my vax and got measles, mumps, rubella, chickenpox, scarlett fever, whooping cough - honestly I had EVERYTHING as a child. I don't know where my mum was taking me..... :haha:).

They aim to stop you dying from, or being permanently damaged by, the diseases though :flower:


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## Leopard

lisa1980 said:


> Leopard said:
> 
> 
> :rofl: was talking to a close mummy friend of mine today. I was wrong :dohh: I admit I now know someone locally who has had the measles. (where is a bowing emote when you need one?). HOWEVER, here's the clincher. The one who got the measles (she got it twice) had her full MMR vaccinations, shes also had the mumps and rubella (wow) and was obviously vaccinated against them. Healthiest kid ever, hasn't been the the doctors in 4.5yrs.
> 
> The vaccines don't necessarily stop you from getting the diseases (I had all my vax and got measles, mumps, rubella, chickenpox, scarlett fever, whooping cough - honestly I had EVERYTHING as a child. I don't know where my mum was taking me..... :haha:).
> 
> They aim to stop you dying from, or being permanently damaged by, the diseases though :flower:Click to expand...

Of course, and my mum has had mumps haha. I was just like 'wow really?'


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## Ruth 1980

So, started reading this thread late last night- very interesting. I don't have any expert knowledge around vaccination, but isn't it more to prevent death when you catch a disease, rather than preventing you catching it? Like a previous poster, I had everything going (measles twice, mumps, rubella twice, chicken pox& whooping cough at the same time! etc) despite being vaccinated x


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## deafgal

I guess it is similar to cold sores and how mothers have the antibodies before pregnancy protect the baby more than mothers who don't have the antibodies (or had cold sore very late in pregnancy) These babies are more likely to have serious complications because of no antibodies. 

But babies who do have antibodies from their mother (I think the antibodies is temporary, until they develop their own) , they still get the cold sore.


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## roomaloo

Ruth 1980 said:


> So, started reading this thread late last night- very interesting. I don't have any expert knowledge around vaccination, but isn't it more to prevent death when you catch a disease, rather than preventing you catching it? Like a previous poster, I had everything going (measles twice, mumps, rubella twice, chicken pox& whooping cough at the same time! etc) despite being vaccinated x


And that's the reason why unvaccinated kids can't be blamed for spreading diseases and putting people at risk, which has been the case in this thread, as vaxed get them too. Often undetected as they get such mild cases, but are still just as infectious! And also why unvaxed kids can't be blamed for diseases not being wiped out. 

The only thing people can berate people for when it comes to not vaccinating is potentially putting their own kids at risk, but can't be solely blamed for diseases being spread.

Really unfortuntate you got rubella and measles twice! Wow!


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## Ruth 1980

I think I have a shitty immune system! I did the course of hepatitis B vaccinations when I started uni and by graduation when I went to work in a large hospital, they checked my immunity and said I had no immunity to hepB! Had to do the course again. Rechecked a few yrs later (a different hospital) and it was too low so had to have a booster. Think I have some lazy ass white cells ;) x


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## lisa1980

Ruth 1980 said:


> I think I have a shitty immune system! I did the course of hepatitis B vaccinations when I started uni and by graduation when I went to work in a large hospital, they checked my immunity and said I had no immunity to hepB! Had to do the course again. Rechecked a few yrs later (a different hospital) and it was too low so had to have a booster. *Think I have some lazy ass white cells* ;) x

LOVE this!! :haha:


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