# 7th Natural cycle IVF(w/o meds) and finally BFP!



## dovkav123

Hello,
I am starting my natural (spontaneous) IVF cycle treatment in August 2013 In Germany it is called Green fertility. RE will not use any ovary stimulating drugs, only local painkiller during egg retrieval. It is exciting! I'll be happy to share my journey with you!
THis study gave me hope. Many women got preggo in 3rd try.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3169680/
======================
*IVF #1 August* 19th update

Hi,
Officially I am on the green fertility schedule.
CD11,14-15mm follicle on Monday and HCG trigger shot at 9:30pm that night.
Wednesday egg retrieval at 8:30am
Probably Friday(after 2days) eggy is going to my incubator!

My RE appointment went really well. 
During the ultrasound she saw one follicle but she couldn't tell if I still have an egg in it. It could be only a corpus luteus. Dr. saw some fluid and she predicted that it could mean ruptured follicle, O have happened.&#65532; I told her I felt some activity couple days ago. We took a blood test and it showed that I haven&#8217;t O 'ed yet and I don't have my LH surge yet. The timing is perfect so far!

Blood work was perfect.
LH 6.4mlU/ml
Progest .3 ng/ml
Estrogen 166.9pg/ml

Dr. printed a photo of my follicle.


My dh got tested for HIV, and I got tested for HIV, hepatitis C, hepatitis B.
I asked dr. why should we test now? We didn't know if I O'ed or not, at that time. She told me that those tests are valid for half a year. "You'll come back , right?" She really made me think we'll fail this IVF&#65532;

However, my dr. was really nice.
She was pleasant, smiling a lot..
She answered all my questions.
1. she gave me 10% success, many embryos doesn't grow in the lab, many women don't get them transferred.
2. I'll not get the same dr. during this treatment.
3. My dr. treats IVF the same way like spontaneous conception. She doesn't believe that laying down after transfer will help with implantation. Embryo will not drop, it will swim for 2 days in the womb till implants. She warned us that it is more chances to get intrauterine, tubal pregnancy with IVF.
4. Taking baby aspirin to increase implantation, the study is inconclusive. I'll research more about it and let you know.
5. I should not take preg test at home. One Patient did it and it was false negative. Do the blood work 14 days after O.
6.My husband can be next to me during retrieval and transfer. We can't make the baby naturally, at least he'll be part of it. It is sooo wonderful!
7. Egg Retrieval risks are horrible. Nothing horrible ever happened from 10000...egg retrieval. Dr. knocks on her head 3 times...pfu, pfu pfu.. But My dh is super sensitive he went detail by detail about it with a dr. She told us important arteries are close by, if she punctures, I could bleed. They may need to cut me open and operate. Fertility clinic is in the main hospital, so I am safe and there will be no time wasted to help me. (every operation has risks, hysteroscopy also had risks, I was fine)
8. Resume the same activities like always after transfer. Just avoid running and heavy physical activities. NO restrictions about sex.
9. Flying in the first trimester is not recommended, but everybody does anyway! Radiation concern and overall early preg. symptoms.

I had a huge scare last night about HCG trigger shot.(Ovitrelle 250microgram) 4 pharmacies didn't have it, they offered to order the next day. I was in shock and had tears in my eyes and I felt was so hopeless I needed that night at 9:30pm. The pharmacist told us to go to another city. Fertility clinic (the one I visited last Thursday is close by), it was a big possibility that they had it. And they did indeed! They were open till 10pm. WE were so blessed and so lucky! Big lesson for the future-please prepare in advance to avoid heartache.

When we picked up meds we had 1 hour till the shot. So we decided to go for a drink and relax. WE went to a brewery-restaurant where my dh dad worked when he was young. I had fresh squeezed orange juice and he had a beer. You can't imagine what we saw on the table! 4 glasses cylinder filled up with vinegar and oil. The ones we used in chemistry lessons for experiments. What a sign! The test tube baby will be made in Germany! Probably this week! I had chills! Pleasant once. It meant to be....

We had only 20 min till my shot, so we decided to stay in the city. I did the shot(my first one ever! and I nailed it, I was sooo proud of myself!) in the car with a view of the light up city, river and a castle. We walked for an hour, hugged and kissed. WE can't make our baby naturally at least we'll have some special romantic moments to remember, and the baby will be sooo special too! My dh wants to be involved 100%, he is making movies and taking photos.

Keep fingers crossed for tomorrow, I hope for the healthy and strong eggy!
Thank you for reading!

------------------------------
August 21, 2013 One hour before procedure I put a pill of voltaren 50mg in my rectum. we came to the clinic on time, I had to wait for 0,5 an hour for the procedure. In the room I met Prof. she shook my hand and said nice to meet you. She didn&#8217;t remembered me? She did my hysteroscopy a month ago! I asked her if the follicle still grew after HCG shot? She said yes. We signed the paper work and I got on the table. My husband was next to me the entire time. I asked her if you don&#8217;t get the egg, will you try again? She said no. Prof. had two helpers. The nurse opened the package and took out the longest needle I have ever seen. Prof. wiped my vagina in and out with a salt water and looked at my follicle. She didn&#8217;t measure it. She told me it doesn&#8217;t matter. I wanted to know, how big it was during retrieval. Prof. poked the needle and sucked the follicle&#8217;s fluid. I saw everything on the screen. I felt pain only when the needle pierced my skin. She poured the fluid in the cylinder tube glass and brought to another room to look at the egg. She came back with a bad news, no egg is found. She will try again if I want to. I agreed she sucked more fluid from the follicle and the second time she had no luck. Prof, explained to us that it could be an empty follicle, some women have it once in a while. Or an egg is still stuck to the wall of the follicle and is going to leave it any minute. Maybe the egg left with a first time needle withdrawal.? we'll never now.She asked about my tubes. Are they open?. I told her we don&#8217;t know, they may. I had a pelvic surgery, we blame the tubes for infertility. If my tubes are open but they are not functioning, we may have a tubal preg. Sperm has easy ride to the tubes aftetr IUi. Dr. suggested to do IUI and we agreed.
My dh had to collect his sperm, we went to a special room for that. I helped him We want to be involved 100!% in this project! We had to wait for 1 hour for sperm to be ready to inseminate. WE were sitting in the waiting room and I felt little nausea and suddenly, dizzy, I saw lights flashing in front of my eyes. I told to Gary I am dizzy, I am dizzy, ask for help! He ran to the right knocked at the doors, nobody opened. He went to the left and receptionist Marla, lab technician and dr. All ran to me and they found me laying on the floor. I laid down by myself because I knew it will help me. Dr. checked my blood pressure it was 90/40. Marla held my legs up in the air. The girls put me in bed, covered with a sheet, because I was shivering. Everybody were so nice to me I'll never forget how nurse cuddled me in the blanket.Dr. had a hard time putting IV in my arm, because my veins collapsed. Gary demanded for an ultrasound, he was worried about the internal bleeding. I was fine. Dr. calmed us down, it couldn&#8217;t be infection, it is too early. She said that vagus nerve over responded to the peritoneal area fluid leakage. Dr. rolled me to another room for recovery. After egg aspiration through the vaginal wall, I had low abdominal cramps just for an hour. Gary&#8217;s sperm was ready for insemination. His sperm morphology was fine but motility was little low. 28% and suppose to be 32%. Dr. made sure that it was Gary&#8217;s sperm and she made sure that it was me laying on the table. During this procedure, I didn&#8217;t feel pain at all. I only felt uncomfortable when Dr. put tool to open my cervix.
Dr. orders was to BD that night because sperm has peptides that helps with firtilisation.

After HCG shot my egg suppose to mature more. The flollicle grows about 2mm a day. So on Monday morning it was 16mm. On Wednesday morning probably 20mm. In the past I had a 20mm follicle and I felt my O that night. I beleave that the timing was perfect.
I am on progesteron now. I take 2 pills (200mg) in the evening.
I have a tiny hope with a huge help of magic. We did 2 things different this month IUI and progesteron.

Thank you for reading.

=======
September 2nd update
BFN this morning 12dpo.
My temps are down too. I am taking progesterone. I beleave they should stay high with this hormone. I never had any side effects, maybe I am not responding well to it?
I want to quit it and wait for my period. I hope we are staying couple more months in Germany. I would do 2 more natural cycle IVF and then I'll convince my Dh for a standart one.
My blood test is due on Wednesday. I don't think I should do it. No egg, no embryo...This cycle is hopless.
I'll test again till then.
=============
CD25, BFN,Sept 2nd
CD26, BFN, Sept 3rd
CD28, BFN, Sept 5th

CD25, I took only one progesterone
CD26, I quit
My AF showed up 3days later
========
IVF NR.2SEPTEMBER 13th, Friday 11am

Update from a visit to RE
CD8,We found beautiful round follicle 18mm on my left side(last month was on the right). :happydance:


Blood tests were great. My LH hasn't spyked yet. :happydance:
HCG trigger shot on Saturday 11pm:happydance:
Egg retrieval on Monday at 10am.:happydance:
My blood tests were perfect
LH 3.7 mlU/ml
Estrogen 153.7pg/ml(150-200 mature follicle)
progesterone .5 ng/ml

SEPTEMBER 16TH 
Egg is retrieved. Procedure went well. I felt pain only when the dr. pull out the needle. Not a big deal. After that, no pain at all!

SEPTEMBER 17TH
Egg is fertilised

SEPTEMBER 19TH
Embryo 8A is transfered.

It takes 2 days to implant in my uterus.
SEPTEMBER 30TH
Beta-valio!valio!valio! Hooray!


I am not alone anymore! September 19th
Embryo transfer was a little bit complicated dr. couldn't get into my cervix to my womb with a catheter, she let this perform to another dr. and she did it but my hubby saw she had to push an emby in. I read in literature, that when cervix gets triggered too much, oxytoxin hormone gets elevated and that increases uterine contractions. No good.
We saw a photo of embryo 8cell A grade 3 days old. He is perfect! 
WE saw a follicle first last week, today an embryo. We are so blessed to experience live growing. A reward for all dark days and dissapoinments.
Sept 30th is a blood test.
Dr. orders: no baths and sex for 4 days, no heavy lifting and exercise. Stay warm and rest.
2 years of infirtility, pages of BBT, $$ spent on preg tests, 3 times needle pokes through vaginal wall.
I asked all my closest friends and relatives to pray and ask God for blessings. My grandma went to church, I prayed every day. I Thanked God for giving us a chance to be parents.

Don't give up! Don't ever give up. Don't you ever ever give up! 

SYMPTOMS CHECKER: temps went up after transfer
1.CD14 transfer day-pain on the right ovary, cramping, headache.
2. CD15 1dpt less cramping, headache, ovary pain, needle feeling on the uterus for a few seconds.
3. CD16 2dpt urine cramp, uterine contractions
4. CD17
5 CD18 stressed out
6 CD19 breast tingle, nausea after breakfast
7. CD20 stressed out, tired all day, nausea breakfast and pm
8.CD21 uterine contraction, breast tingle
9. CD22 , stuffy nose, uterine contractions, dizzy pm, bad sleep,BFN
10. CD23 stuffy nose, migraine
11. CD24 tired, stuffy nose, 
12. CD25 blood test negative, cried, depressed
13. CD26
14. CD27

SECOND IVF SUMMARY 
Sept 14th HCG trigger at 11pm, Egg retrieved on Monday Sept 16th, ET(8A) Sept19th, Beta on 30th of September BFN.

*IVF nr3* 
OCTOBER3rd

First day of the period was the hardest. It was real. I felt empty, lonely and heartbroken. We lit the candle for those tiny cells, tiny embryo in the church. It had genetic code, features and character, boy or girl it was there... It tuned to an angel and we'll meet him in heaven.

CD1 Heavy(heating pad) 1 maca
CD2 medium(heating pad) 2 maca
CD3 light (heating pad) 2maca
CD4 light (heating pad) 2 maca
CD5 light(heating pad) 2 maca, egwcm
CD6 spotting 4maca, egwcm
CD7 spotting red 4maca, egwcm
CD8 spotting br. 16mm follicle, 8mm uterine lining 2maca,egwcm,

LH 4.7 U/I
estrogen 135.8 pg/ml

CD9 spot with wipe, headache all day 2 maca,egcm
CD10 -OPK, -OPK,HCG shot 9:15pm, egwcm thicker 4maca
CD11 BFP, 2maca, wet, egwcm with drop of blood
CD12 Egg retrieval successful! 
The retrieval was a little painful this time. I don't like when dr. tells "now we'll begin" I get stressed out because of those words. I felt my ovary moved and it did hurt. Dr. told me that a follicle was on the other side of the ovary, so she had to go accross it to reach a follicle. She said we can't tell an ovary where to grow a follicle:). You suppose to laugh, but it's not funny:( No blood was lost. That's a good. We stayed in the hospital for an hour. I felt some pain so I wanted to wait, I didn't want to pass out again. I had 3 cups of water and in an hour I was feeling great ,we went home.
CD13 An egg is fertilised. Sarting 600mg progesterone today.


3rd IVF summary 
Natural cycle IVF: Ultrasound on Thursday 16mm follicle, Sat. HCG at 9:15pm, Monday ER on 8:15am, transfer Wednesday at 10am.
Wishes ffom friends:
That is great news. I am so happy for you. I know it's such a feeling of wonder when you realize that you finally have your fertilized egg living thing inside you. Wishing you lots of healthy growth and that your little miracle makes itself comfortable in there. I'm sure it feels your love. Happy 2ww! It's so hard to be patient when you've been patient so long but I am hoping and praying for strong little embies for us both. 

Lots of BFP news to come on this thread I hope! Yay!!
NOVEMBER
*4th IVF*Change the clinic and very happy about this decision. My new RE told me I have a flexed uterus, the end of it is leaning towards the bladder. Maybe that's why I have cramping during urinate after ovulation.
CD8 U/S R ovary 16mm
CD11 HcG 11pm
CD13 egg retrieval
CD 14 3 pronucleus

This cycle failed. We don't know why. Maybe Sperm or ovary had chromosomal problems.

*5th IVF DECEMBER*CD8 R ovary 18mm, 9.3mm uterine lining
CD9 HCG trigger 12:30am
CD11 ER. no painkillers. New dr. didn't want my hubby in OP, but I convinced her he must be with me.
CD12 fertilised
CD13 transfered 4B cell embryo. It went very smooth. Feel confident my RE did a good job. I saw a catheter and a little bubble on the U/S. After ET I felt some cervical activity.
CD14 more cervical, uterine activity. Brevactid shot 1500IE in the evening.
CD15
CD16 Brevactid shot 1500 ie, headache
CD17 cramping pm
cd18 cramping pm
cd19 Brevactid shot 1500ie cramping
cd25 af cramps
cd26 bad migraine pm
cd27 bfn 
cd29bfn spotting
cd30 spotting still on progesterone
cd31 spotting
cd32 red, AF started

I feel like doing nothing on January. Feeling hopeless///....
I feel like checking my uterus for abnormalities with saline ultrasound and flushing my tubes.
I feel like BD on my O day and take progesterone after. Hope for miracle...

6th IVF JANUARY
on CD 10 we came to the office to talk about failed IVF and we found 20mm follicle. Trying again.
WE retrived and egg, but it didn't fertilise correctly(3 pronucleous).
RE is positive we havn't met a healthy embryo yet.
My plan is to rest for 3 month, recharge our batteries, enjoy more sunshine and try again in Spring. Hopefully we'll have stimulated IVF in USA.

IUI in February
open tubes contrast ultrasound revealed
CD7 12mm follicle and tubes are checked
CD11 L 13.6 R 14.6 lining 7.2
CD13 L13.6 R 16mm
CD15 L13.6 R 19.6
CD16 L13.6 R 20.6 , uterine lining 14mm, IUI 12mil sperms are swimming in me:)
waiting for O pain and temp raise and than start progesterone (CD19 dr. told me to start)

I have Ovulated: 
1. In the morning my temp was very low 36.3.
2. My follicle was 20.6mm during IUI at 12pm. Mature follicle any time will burst.
BD'ed hour later no pain. Feeling wet firtile mucous. 
3. In the evening I got O pain. 9:30pm
4. In the morning my temp went up 36.6 and stayed high....
5. That day we BD'ed in the evening I had O pain, was very uncomfortable

Conclusion:
I had IUI before my O. My egg started to burst from the ovary that evening. The temp went up next morning. I Ovulated. The pain I had during BD that evening was the fluid irritating my pelvis cos of the bursted follicle.
I beleave the sperm met an egg. Hope and pray>
Febr 27th
I am CD 35, I am 19dpiui, my Luteal fase is never ever longer than 16-17 days. I quit progest. 4 days ago. I am so scared that it may be a big mistake!
I had long cycle before, but I o'ed late.
This cycle too I o'ed late on day CD16. 
I had HSG done last month, could this mess up my cycle?
I had a second follicle growing. Maybe it turned to a cyst? 
I had my worst PMS ever 2 days ago. My hubby blames progesterone. WE had a big fight and slept in separate rooms.
He hasn't drank for 4 days a drop, and I am hormonal. We both are crazy.....
WE canceled IVF lab on Tuesday. First time ever!!! WE didn't deliver sperm for DNA.
I canceled my hair stylist...No color for my hair this week.
I don't have a test at home:(
I'll save my morning urine in the fridge and test later.
I am really freaking out.
I can't beleave this happening to me!
BFN IUI#1

MARCH IUI#2
BFN

April IVF #7 :bfp::bfp: at 14dpo home test
Beta at 16dpo 521


-------------------
due date 3day transfer

Estimated Due Date is 12/29/2014 
Gestational Age Today is 4 week(s), 3 day(s) or 1.02 month(s) months. 
Date of Conception 4/7/2014 
First Fetal Heart Tones by Doppler: 6/9/2014 to 6/16/2014 (11 to 12 w) 
End First Trimester: 6/23/2014 
Blood Draw for Serum Integrated Screening: 6/2/2014 to 6/29/2014 (10 w to 13 w 6d ) 
Nuchal Translucency (NT) Ultrasound: 6/11/2014 to 7/2/2014 (11w 2d to 14 w 2d ) 
Quad Marker Screening: 7/7/2014 to 8/11/2014 (15 w to 20 w) 
Best time to evaluate cervical length in patient with risk factors . After :7/14/2014 (16 w) 
Best time for routine anatomy ultrasound: 7/28/2014 to 8/11/2014 (18 to 20 w) 
2h OGTT in women not previously diagnosed with diabetes: 9/8/2014 to 10/6/2014 (24 w to 28 w) 
Anti-D prophylaxis for women who are (RhD) Negative: 10/6/2014 (28 w) 
Antepartum Fetal Surveillance in High Risk Patients: 11/3/2014 to 11/17/2014 (32 to 34 w) 
Screening for Vaginal and Rectal GBS colonization: 11/24/2014 to 12/8/2014 ( 35 to 37 w) 
Elective Delivery May Be Scheduled for Singletons After : 12/22/2014 (39 w)

==============================================
Things I did new this BFP cycle

1. No castor oil packs this cycle
2. we did assisted embryo hatching
3. we BD'ed before ET and after ET (w/o orgasm)
4. I walked slowly but long after ET, staying active always, no bed rest
5. aspirin 100mg enteric coated started after ER, quit a day for ET(procedure could cause bleeding) and now I am taking it every evening with food and water
6. I ate lots of fish. I am taking 3g fish oil a day
7. 1000mg green tea extract with vitC after ET till BFP. (reduces inflammation responce)
8. Black carraway oil 20 drops a day. now I slow down to 3 drops
9. spoonfull avocado oil 
10. pinapple and pinapple core after ET till BFP
11 increased vit D from 2000iu to 3000iu a day
12. iron 100mg a day, quit after BFP
13. Green chlorella increased from 1 pill to 3 pills a day
14. Probiotics one pill a day from ET til BFP
15 Sandorn and lemon juice
16. dandelion salat
17. alfa alfa and sweet peas sprouts
18. layed down 30min after ET
19. eating dried plums and abricots
20. ginger root tea, clove, and cinammon
21. water soaked walnuts and brasil nuts
22. I have used organic menstrual pads for 2 months.
23. banana a day(aspirin can thin my intestines and banana thickens them)
24. spicy food , hot peppers in 2ww

I did a lot. I'll never know what helped us this

You can check out my youtube TTC and pregnancy videos at *dovkav*


----------



## sunshine8

Hello there,

Nice to read your post. Green treatment sounds exciting. I will too be starting my IVF treatment (although not natural), in August. It will be great to hear more on your progress.

Good luck and best wishes.


----------



## Briss

Hi there, can I join? I am hoping to start my natural cycle IVF at CREATE in London soon maybe even next cycle. I am having my initial consultation and a scan later this week.

unfortunately the NHS refused us funding for a traditional IVF because my FSH is too high so we are going private. the FS at CREATe said with my high FSH and low AMH we can only do natural cycle (i.e. without ovarian stimulation) but the chances are not great as it's just one egg per cycle. 

dovkav, where about in Germany are you? can i ask how much do you pay for your natural cycle?


----------



## dovkav123

Sunshine8,
Thank you for joining me. I wish you lots of luck and peace of mind during your IVF cycle!

Briss,
I am so sad that NHS doesn't help you.
I am happy you found me! I am so excited that now I have a buddy, who goes through the same adventure!
Natural firtility costs 425.70 euros.
I called today and the office told some details:
You still need to pay 200 euros if RE will not find an egg during retreaval.
I am in South Germany.
What is your AMH?

Lil managed to raise her AMH from .89 to 1.5. She got preggo naturally.
https://babyandbump.momtastic.com/l...journey-ella-ttc-1-27-cycles-counting-32.html

I will make an appointment when my period starts, around August 8.

Briss, your chart looks amazing! Go girl!

Advantages of natural cycle IVF
Natural or modified natural cycle IVF can have certain benefits compared to drug stimulated IVF treatment

ADVANTAGES OF NATURAL IVF CYCLE

&#8226;Reduced cost per cycle, as you will use no or very few medications. The IVF cycle also has a lower cost as there is less work to do in the laboratory for 1 egg than for many eggs
&#8226;The short and possible risk of long term side effects from drugs are minimised
&#8226;Treatment can be repeated every month without waiting for 2-3 months between treatment cycles as is the usual practice for stimulated cycles
&#8226;The risk of ovarian hyperstimulation syndrome (OHSS) is practically eliminated
&#8226;There is some evidence suggesting that stimulating the ovaries could have a negative impact onthe endometrium (uterine lining) affecting success rates
&#8226;There is some evidence suggesting that the embryos produced during a natural cycle or mild stimulation IVF are more likely to be genetically normal (i.e. have normal chromosomes) and therefore more likely to produce an ongoing pregnancy

*There are some potential disadvantages of using natural cycles* 

&#8226;Lower pregnancy rate when compared directly with stimulated IVF cycles.
&#8226;During Natural Cycle IVF, the monitoring can be time consuming and we could ask you to come to the clinic at short notice
&#8226;There are usually no surplus embryos to be frozen
&#8226;As we do not have much control over your cycle, the chance that unexpected events may happen is higher, and therefore there is a higher chance of failing to achieve an embryo. That means that during Natural IVF treatment the chance of having an embryo to transfer in the womb ranges from 50% to 70%, with multiple attempts possibly required.


----------



## Briss

OMG!! 425 euros per a natural IVF cycle??? is this really true? if so I am packing my bags and moving to Germany! at CREATE it's between 2,500 &#8211; 5,000 British pounds per cycle (https://www.createhealth.org/treatment-prices) and also you are supposed to pay everything up front and no refund if cycle is cancelled due to no egg/poor egg quality etc. We will probably have to pay a bit more for ICSI due to sperm issues. 

My AMH is 1.38. although I did the test aboard as it was much cheaper and the reference was 1-10, anything below 1 is considered menopause&#8230; so I am very close. although I did not do the test on day 3, maybe it's not that accurate after all (clutching to straws here)

we've been trying naturally for 3 years and I made dramatic changes to my lifestyle and the last year did TCM acu + herbs but my FSH keeps rising despite all my efforts. we also have low sperm count - our main issue so after 3 years I do not hold any hope for a natural conception 

I am little bit scared about tomorrow's scan and appointment, FSs never tell me good news and every time I go I am told something much worse than I can ever anticipate so I am just simply frightened 

I am also very happy to share this journey with you, so great to have a buddy!


----------



## Briss

I am taking some comfort from this article that an IVf child will not necessarily have fertility issues&#8230; https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...-baby-Louise-Brown-pregnant-second-child.html


----------



## dovkav123

Briss said:


> OMG!! 425 euros per a natural IVF cycle??? is this really true? if so I am packing my bags and moving to Germany! at CREATE it's between 2,500 &#8211; 5,000 British pounds per cycle (https://www.createhealth.org/treatment-prices) and also you are supposed to pay everything up front and no refund if cycle is cancelled due to no egg/poor egg quality etc. We will probably have to pay a bit more for ICSI due to sperm issues.
> 
> My AMH is 1.38. although I did the test aboard as it was much cheaper and the reference was 1-10, anything below 1 is considered menopause&#8230; so I am very close. although I did not do the test on day 3, maybe it's not that accurate after all (clutching to straws here)
> 
> we've been trying naturally for 3 years and I made dramatic changes to my lifestyle and the last year did TCM acu + herbs but my FSH keeps rising despite all my efforts. we also have low sperm count - our main issue so after 3 years I do not hold any hope for a natural conception
> 
> I am little bit scared about tomorrow's scan and appointment, FSs never tell me good news and every time I go I am told something much worse than I can ever anticipate so I am just simply frightened
> 
> I am also very happy to share this journey with you, so great to have a buddy!

Yes it is truth! Germany Rocks! I have this price on paper black and white!
Mine AMH is 1.29 is lower than yours. One dr. told me it is low and the other one it is OK. In USA standarts anything under 1 is concerning.
Ask your dr. to take Day 3 blood tests. FSH number is very important on this day. AMH can be taken anytime of the cycle. On the CD25 you also take estrogen and progesteron tests, dr learns if you ovulated. During ultrasound ask dr. to count the follicles he sees on each ovary. 8 follicles on each ovary is good!
Before O dr. looked at the size of my follicle. He guessed when I O'ed and he was right.
You have chances and don't give up! You take lots of wonderful supplements, they will help. Please take a willow bark extract 81 mg(it is aspirin), but natural and doesn't hurt your stomach. Every woman after 35 should take it. I learned on internet and my friend's dr. prescribed it to her. It make sense. It is a bloodthinner more blood circulating in uterus and ovaries.
Don't be scared tomorrow. More knowledge is better. Every day is a better day and stayhopefull.
Thank you for the article about Louise Brown, i was wondering how she looks, oh boy, she was a brave woman!
She did inspired me to do a natural IVF cycle.

Come to Germany! Have a vacation! Maybe in 10 days natural IVF could be done here.


----------



## Briss

German natural cycle IVF prices rock!!! UK prices sucks, I could do 5-6 IVFs in Germany for the price of one in the UK. definitely something to think about. I have this price on paper black and white!

I did my FSH on CD3 so unfortunately there is no denying that's super high. I also heard that AMH can be taken anytime of the cycle but the clink where I did this test wanted it to be done on CD3, I ws abroad on holiday and I just lied about my CD because I thought it does not make any difference. but now once I got really bad result I am thin king maybe I should have done on CD3 as they asked?

I did numerous oestrogen and progesterone tests and all came back normal. My only problem is FSH. 

I did cycle monitoring several times and I remember asking about the number of follicles she sees on each ovary but she just said "reasonable amount", no idea how many that is. 

where do you buy willow bark extract? I am on Chinese herbs at the moment (raw herbs that I am supposed to cook every day), trying to finish it off before we start IVf as the doc was very against Chinese herbs during treatment. the herbs really helped with clots, I have none which sort of means my blood circulation improved. 

my good friend recently moved from London to Berlin and I was visiting her in June. Unfortunately we were so busy catching up with our lives that I did not get to seem much of the city. maybe next time.


----------



## dovkav123

Briss said:


> German natural cycle IVF prices rock!!! UK prices sucks, I could do 5-6 IVFs in Germany for the price of one in the UK. definitely something to think about. I have this price on paper black and white!
> 
> I did my FSH on CD3 so unfortunately there is no denying that's super high. I also heard that AMH can be taken anytime of the cycle but the clink where I did this test wanted it to be done on CD3, I ws abroad on holiday and I just lied about my CD because I thought it does not make any difference. but now once I got really bad result I am thin king maybe I should have done on CD3 as they asked?
> 
> I did numerous oestrogen and progesterone tests and all came back normal. My only problem is FSH.
> 
> I did cycle monitoring several times and I remember asking about the number of follicles she sees on each ovary but she just said "reasonable amount", no idea how many that is.
> 
> where do you buy willow bark extract? I am on Chinese herbs at the moment (raw herbs that I am supposed to cook every day), trying to finish it off before we start IVf as the doc was very against Chinese herbs during treatment. the herbs really helped with clots, I have none which sort of means my blood circulation improved.
> 
> my good friend recently moved from London to Berlin and I was visiting her in June. Unfortunately we were so busy catching up with our lives that I did not get to seem much of the city. maybe next time.

Definetly retest your FSH. You'll get a low number and you'll qualify to traditinal IvF
here the list of the tests for day3
LH 5.9 mlu/ml

FSH 5.0 mlu/ml

Oestrogen 56 pg/ml

Progesteron 0.4 ng/ml
AMH 1.29 ng/ml

Prolactin 306mlu/l

TSH 1.99 

FSH 5.0 mlu/ml

Testosteron

In my clinic, if O will be in the weekend, they will postpone to another cycle.
Isn't that crazy, I am so saaaad !

blood stasis-I read about it.
I am so glad you improving your period. What are the names of those herbs?
I really like to use the herbs that our ansestors used, the herbs that grew in their garden. I beleave my body will respond better.
But I am willing to try new herbs too.

Willow bark in latin is salix alba. I don't know trusting internet site to buy it. I will go to the pharmacy and ask about it. I bought in USA _Feverfwer head aid_ those pills had feverfew leaf extract,chinese herbs and willow bark in it. (schizonepeta aerial, notopterygium root, green tea leaf, licorice rot, liguisticum wallichii rhizome, pubescent angelica rot, siler root, cyperus rhizome, ginger root.)They helped me with PmS mgraines. Feverfew flowers grows in Eastern Europe and they may help wih menstrual periods, joint pain.

I hope your appoinment went well.


----------



## Briss

In my clinic they work 7 days a week so luckily ovulating on weekend is not a problem. 

herbs are quite tricky, they are very potent and can easily do more harm than good if taken wrongly. I get a prescription form a Chinese doctor. I am sure you have Chinese acu clinics nearby, they would need to examine you to identify what your excesses/deficiencies are and then prescribe the appropriate herbal formula. 

am off to my appointment, scary!


----------



## Briss

Reporting back on my initial consultation and scan.

my antral follicle count was 9 (7 on the left ovary and 2 on the right), one doc said it corresponded to my low AMH levels and at my age they would expect at least 5 more follicles but Dr was of the opinion that the count is too good for my AMH and she suspects that this is empty follicles caused by Chinese herbs so she did not think it was representative. quite depressingly she said my AMh of smb who is 42-43 years old&#8230; 

Bad news I now got cysts on both ovaries, even a professor was called in during the scan to try and identify whether we've a got a problem here. basically, the scary part is that I need to do CA 125 blood test to check for ovarian cancer!!! the right cyst seemed OK as there was no blood flow to it but the left one unfortunately had some blood flow (but hopefully this is because I ovulated from left ovary as they could see the corpus luteum) also, it might be tricky to do egg retrieval as they will have to maneuver the needle to try not to puncture the cyst. 

the good news I have excellent blood flow to my uterus! actually might be thanks to Chinese herbs. also excellent lining. 

based on the scan Dr thought we might get away with mild stimulation i.e. modified cycle IVF and she hopes we can get 2 eggs.

Mild stimulation IVF cost: up to £4,200

IVF: 2550
sedation: 230
hfea fee: 75
icsi 870
blood test: 75-150
menopur 120-150
cetrotide 105-140
ovitrelle 15-30

at the end she said that based on what she knows about us she would give us 25% chance of getting a BFP after one cycle and 10-16% chance of taking a baby home.


----------



## dovkav123

Briss said:


> Reporting back on my initial consultation and scan.
> 
> my antral follicle count was 9 (7 on the left ovary and 2 on the right), one doc said it corresponded to my low AMH levels and at my age they would expect at least 5 more follicles but Dr was of the opinion that the count is too good for my AMH and she suspects that this is empty follicles caused by Chinese herbs so she did not think it was representative. quite depressingly she said my AMh of smb who is 42-43 years old
> 
> Bad news I now got cysts on both ovaries, even a professor was called in during the scan to try and identify whether we've a got a problem here. basically, the scary part is that I need to do CA 125 blood test to check for ovarian cancer!!! the right cyst seemed OK as there was no blood flow to it but the left one unfortunately had some blood flow (but hopefully this is because I ovulated from left ovary as they could see the corpus luteum) also, it might be tricky to do egg retrieval as they will have to maneuver the needle to try not to puncture the cyst.
> 
> the good news I have excellent blood flow to my uterus! actually might be thanks to Chinese herbs. also excellent lining.
> 
> based on the scan Dr thought we might get away with mild stimulation i.e. modified cycle IVF and she hopes we can get 2 eggs.
> 
> Mild stimulation IVF cost: up to £4,200
> 
> IVF: 2550
> sedation: 230
> hfea fee: 75
> icsi 870
> blood test: 75-150
> menopur 120-150
> cetrotide 105-140
> ovitrelle 15-30
> 
> at the end she said that based on what she knows about us she would give us 25% chance of getting a BFP after one cycle and 10-16% chance of taking a baby home.

Your dr. is so heartless to tell that your ovaries are 40 y/o woman. He is so mean to you:growlmad:
I am so sorry about your cysts. Don't panic, they come and go.... 
You should not get any firtility meds till cysts are gone. My friend was on birth control for a couple of weeks and she got rid of them. 
Do you have a family history of hormonal cancers: Breast, uterus, cirvical?
I feel for you! I was also upset about my positive PAP smear. They found ovegrowth of some cells. The hardest thing was, I had to wait for a gynecol. appointment for a month. My body healed on my own and now I have no problems.
PCOS, do you have any symptoms?


:thumbup:for chinese herbs!

10-16% is good, any number is good, because with natural preg you have o% chance. I am very happy about your mini IVF or micro IVF( in US they call that).
How about your FSH? 

I am going to another RE on 15th of August. I made an appointment 1,5 month ago and never canceled. It is always good to have another option! I have free consultation and they do real bussiness. :happydance:They are open 10 hour a day and perform IVF in the weekend.

Enjoy your weekend! Thank you for your update.


----------



## Briss

the professor who was looking at my cysts said they are likely to stay. I used to have those that come and go but it appears that these are different type of cysts. the one on the right has been there for almost 2 years now. the one on the left is relatively new. That's the thing they suggest to proceed despite the cysts and still they want to give me stimulating meds. I am so worried. I have a family history of ovarian cancer unfortunately so you can understand my concern. I know that with modified natural IVf there wont be injections so the doses of med are not as high but still. 

definitely no PCOS, my antral follicle count was only 9. my FSH is very high, this cycle it was 19. 

I think we may still have chances getting pregnant naturally and if I was younger I would continue TTC but approaching 40 makes me worried and I want more than one child so we really need to start moving things alone. 

let me know how your RE goes?


----------



## dovkav123

Briss said:


> the professor who was looking at my cysts said they are likely to stay. I used to have those that come and go but it appears that these are different type of cysts. the one on the right has been there for almost 2 years now. the one on the left is relatively new. That's the thing they suggest to proceed despite the cysts and still they want to give me stimulating meds. I am so worried. I have a family history of ovarian cancer unfortunately so you can understand my concern. I know that with modified natural IVf there wont be injections so the doses of med are not as high but still.
> 
> definitely no PCOS, my antral follicle count was only 9. my FSH is very high, this cycle it was 19.
> 
> I think we may still have chances getting pregnant naturally and if I was younger I would continue TTC but approaching 40 makes me worried and I want more than one child so we really need to start moving things alone.
> 
> let me know how your RE goes?

You're in my thoughts and I am sending you lots of hugs and kisses.

ICEQUEEN on babyand bump got Bfp yesterday. She TTC since 01/01/2012. I beleave it is a natural one, a very patient one!
"Don't give up 5 min before your miracle" ICEQUEEN


----------



## Briss

dovkav, very nice and steady after O temp, beautiful chart! fingers crossed you wont need IVF. 

I am reading Zita West's book on preparing for IVF, it's very good lots of info and advice from observing failed cycles and what you can do to minimise your risks and improve your chances.


----------



## dovkav123

Hugs, Briss. I know it hurts. Stay strong and beleave in yourself.

I have 6 days to go till my AF. Then I'll call for an appointment for an ultrasound. If my RE will prognose my O in the weekend, and she'll ask me to come next cycle:(, (the office is closed in the weekend) I'll talk to my new RE on the 15th of August, she may squeeze me in for IVF.
My mom and my sister will visit me in a week, I'll test than.


----------



## Briss

dovkav, thank you! your temp looks very promising!! fingers crossed! 

afm, CD2 so quite depressed at the moment, am due to do a few blood tests this week. I also decided to try to seek an independent opinion obout my left cyst, ideally smb who understands ovarian cancer and can tell me whether I have anything to worry about in going through with stimulation so I guess we will have to put IVf off until the next cycle.


----------



## dovkav123

Briss said:


> dovkav, thank you! your temp looks very promising!! fingers crossed!
> 
> afm, CD2 so quite depressed at the moment, am due to do a few blood tests this week. I also decided to try to seek an independent opinion obout my left cyst, ideally smb who understands ovarian cancer and can tell me whether I have anything to worry about in going through with stimulation so I guess we will have to put IVf off until the next cycle.

Thinking of you. Did you get any blood tests done?
Very smart action! You should get another specialist opinion.
I am 2 days till testing. I have no symptoms, just moody.


----------



## dovkav123

Hello,
How are you Briss? Did you get second opinion? You are in 2ww, good luck and baby dust!

My family left and now I am back to my daily life. Baby making worries are on!
WE went to a new RE and she told us about mucous and sperm interaction. Hormonal problems may make it hostile to sperm. Or sperm can cause problems to mucous. She can see in the lab if the sperm is alive in my mucous. I t cost 100 euro for this test. My Dh always wanted this test.

She also checked my June CD25 hormone test and she noticed they were little low. (prev dr. told me they were good). Some women get preg. with levels like that. Maybe I am the sensitive one? Spotting before and after period could be the sign of hormonal problems. Now I am worry about natural IVF cycle success.
Dr. told us about my DH age and sperm DNA. He may have problems too.

My new RE was not worried about my AMH, but other dr. told me it was low.

Dr. is very much against transfering 2 embryos, because of multiple high risk. She told us that human body is build to carry one baby. I dissagree, why do we have two ovaries and two tubes?

I asked if firtility drugs can cause cancer later on in life. It is not known. Many other things can influence cancer cells to grow.

She told us that stress should not be a problem to conceive. if you BD 3 times a week, you're doing good.

I didn't like that she didn't study my med history very well. She didn't know about my hysteroscopy and I had to remind her about my ruptured appendix.



IVF price in her office is 3times higher than in the other clinic. My dr.and 3 other RE does 100 natural and 900 stimulated cycles a year.
I made an appoinment on Monday for an ultrasound and blood tests in the cheaper clinic. WE are taking a chance and doing a natural cycle IVF this month!


----------



## Briss

dovkav, this is so exciting that you are doing natural cycle IVF this month!! I cant wait to hear about the process and hopefully about your BFP at the end. 

I think it's great that you are doing this test to check how your Dh's sperm survives in your CM. I never had that test cos it's just not among the usual tests that you are supposed to do over here unfortunately. although if you do IUi then your CM does not really matter. I do all sort of things to improve my CM and cultivate EWCM but some cycles I only get it for one day when I actually ovulate. using pre-seed can help if there are any issues with CM. 

Do you have numbers for your June blood test? 

I agree with you that transferring 2 embryos is probably best but I also agree with your doc that the human body is build to carry one baby. twins (when TTC naturally) is usually a glitch in the system. you have 2 ovaries so one can rest while the other is producing the egg (I think). but at this stage and considering my age I would settle for twins so I could have a family

I went to a specialist and he asked me to do lots of blood test. Unfortunately one of my cancer tests came positive. it can be a false positive but needs to be investigated. I was supposed to do MRI scan today but had to re-schedule cos in TWW. my doc told me it was OK to do it even if pregnant but apparently not. When I mentioned at the hospital that I am TTC and post O so might be pregnant I was told to take a pregnancy test to confirm I am not pregnant because they simply wont do MRI if it comes back positive. although I told them I tested in the morning and it was negative but I am only 6 DPO and I was told that in this case it's up to me whether I was to take this risk. Obviously I rescheduled my MRi to a later date once I get my period because if I turn out to be pregnant the last thing you want is to worry how MRI may affect the pregnancy. better safe than sorry. also, I just thought if the hospital would not do the test without specifically saying what the risks are it just means that there are some potential risks but they are not yet official but the mere fact they want to protect themselves from such liability by not doing the scan in the first 12 weeks should be considered as a confirmation that it is not safe. A bit annoying cos it probably means we wont be able to start IVF next cycle but on the other hand I was always told that it's best to look at cysts before O cos after O there may be all sorts of things coming out that will not provide an accurate picture of how things are (same for breast examination, it's only done up to CD10). Also judging by the sensitivity of my ovary I think the cyst might have increased but it may as well disappear the next cycle. so basically it's more waiting around for me. looks like I might not be able to do IVF next cycle as I really want to get all clear from the cancer doc before proceeding with IVF.


----------



## dovkav123

Briss said:


> dovkav, this is so exciting that you are doing natural cycle IVF this month!! I cant wait to hear about the process and hopefully about your BFP at the end.
> 
> I think it's great that you are doing this test to check how your Dh's sperm survives in your CM. I never had that test cos it's just not among the usual tests that you are supposed to do over here unfortunately. although if you do IUi then your CM does not really matter. I do all sort of things to improve my CM and cultivate EWCM but some cycles I only get it for one day when I actually ovulate. using pre-seed can help if there are any issues with CM.
> 
> Do you have numbers for your June blood test?
> 
> I agree with you that transferring 2 embryos is probably best but I also agree with your doc that the human body is build to carry one baby. twins (when TTC naturally) is usually a glitch in the system. you have 2 ovaries so one can rest while the other is producing the egg (I think). but at this stage and considering my age I would settle for twins so I could have a family
> 
> I went to a specialist and he asked me to do lots of blood test. Unfortunately one of my cancer tests came positive. it can be a false positive but needs to be investigated. I was supposed to do MRI scan today but had to re-schedule cos in TWW. my doc told me it was OK to do it even if pregnant but apparently not. When I mentioned at the hospital that I am TTC and post O so might be pregnant I was told to take a pregnancy test to confirm I am not pregnant because they simply wont do MRI if it comes back positive. although I told them I tested in the morning and it was negative but I am only 6 DPO and I was told that in this case it's up to me whether I was to take this risk. Obviously I rescheduled my MRi to a later date once I get my period because if I turn out to be pregnant the last thing you want is to worry how MRI may affect the pregnancy. better safe than sorry. also, I just thought if the hospital would not do the test without specifically saying what the risks are it just means that there are some potential risks but they are not yet official but the mere fact they want to protect themselves from such liability by not doing the scan in the first 12 weeks should be considered as a confirmation that it is not safe. A bit annoying cos it probably means we wont be able to start IVF next cycle but on the other hand I was always told that it's best to look at cysts before O cos after O there may be all sorts of things coming out that will not provide an accurate picture of how things are (same for breast examination, it's only done up to CD10). Also judging by the sensitivity of my ovary I think the cyst might have increased but it may as well disappear the next cycle. so basically it's more waiting around for me. looks like I might not be able to do IVF next cycle as I really want to get all clear from the cancer doc before proceeding with IVF.

I am so sorry for the positive test. It could be false postive too. I am praying for that! I am glad you're strong and you'll go through this soon. The dark cloud will go by and you'll be fine again.
Wait till your AF comes and than go for MRI. Radiation could harm the baby. My cousin's dr.(in England) told her not to fly first 12 weeks of her pregnancy. Do you think radiation in the airplane can cause problems? I need to study this better. Then plane attendants should have maternity leave in the begining of their pregnancy.??!!

My June CD 25 test results
8.2 progesteron -needs to be >10ng/ml
67.2 Estrogen- needs to be 100


In June I had brown spotting 2 days after AF and 2 days before AF. It could mean nothing wrong, but it could mean hormonal imbalance. I had no spotting this cycle.
My previous RE told me my hormones are normal. My new RE told me that they are little low. Many women get preggo with results like that. Maybe I am more sensitive? Who should I beleave now?
The same story about Ovarian reserve. One tells me it's low, and the other- it is normal.


I chose the cheaper IVF because I am sure I'll O next week before Friday. I hope I am right. This clinic unfortunatlly is closed in the weekend.

I wish you a wonderful rest of the weekend.


----------



## dovkav123

I just found a study about natural IVF cycle success. Older women failed in stimulated IVF cycles but got preg with a natural IVF cycle. Please read, it is very encouraging study.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2582079/


----------



## dovkav123

hey everyone,
*it is a copy from the first page. All updates are on my first page!*
Officially I am on the green firtility schedule.
Blood work was perfect.

LH 6.4mlU/ml
Progest .3 ng/ml
Estrogen 166.9pg/ml
16mm follicle (14mm is pritty much matured)on Monday and HCG trigger shot at 9:30pm
Wednesday egg retreaval at 8:30am
Probably Friday(after 2days) eggy is going to my incubator!

My RE appoinment went really well. 
During the ultrasound she saw one follicle but she couldn't tell if I still have an egg in it. It could be a corpus luteus. Dr. saw some fluid and she predicted that it could mean ruptured follicle, O is done. I told her I felt some activity couple days ago. We took a blood test and it showed that I havn't O yet and I don't have my LH surge yet. The timing is perfect so far! 
Dr. printed a photo of my follicle.

My dh got tested for HIV, and I got tested for HIV, hepatitis C, hepatitis B.
I asked dr. why should we test now? We didn't know if I O'ed or not, at that time. She told me that those tests are valid for half a year. "You'll come back , right?" She really made me think we'll fail this IVF:(

In the whole picture my dr. was really nice.
She was pleasant, smilling a lot..
She answered all my questions.
1. she gave me 10% success, many embryos doesn't grow in the lab, many women don't get them transfered.
2. I'll not get the same dr. during this treatment.
3. My dr. doesn't beleave that laying down after transfer will help with implantaton. Embryo will not drop, it will swim for 2 days in the womb till implants. She warned us that it is possible to get intrauterin, tubal pregnancy with this IVF.
4. Taking baby aspirin to increase implantation, the study is inconclusive. I'll reseach more about it and let you know.
5. I should not take preg test at home. One Patient did it and it was false negative.
6.My husband can be next to me during retreaval and transfer. We can't make the baby naturally, at least he'll be part of it. It is sooo wonderful!
7. Egg Retreaval risks are horrible. My dh went detail about it with a dr. She told us important arteries are close by, if she punctures, I could bleed. They may need to cut me open and operate. Firtility clinic is in the main hospital, so I am safe and ther will be no time wasted to help me. (every operation has risks, hysteroscopy also had risks, I was fine)


I had a huge scare last night about HCG trigger shot. 4 pharmacies didn't have it, they offered to order the next day. I was in shock and had tears in my eyes and I felt was so hoppless I needed that night at 9:30pm. The pharmacist told us to go to another city. Firtility clinic (the one I visited last Thursday is close by), it was a big possibility that they had it. And they did indeed! They were open till 10pm. WE were so blessed and so lucky! Big lesson for the future-please prepare in advance to avoid heartache.

When we picked up meds we had 1 hour till the shot. So we decided to go for a drink and relax. WE went to a brewery-restaurant where my dh dad worked when he was young. I had fresh squeezed orange juice and he had a beer. You can't imagine what we saw on the table! 4 glass cyclinder filled up with vinegar and oil. The ones we used in chemistry lessons for experiments. What a sign! The test tube baby will be made in Germany! Probably this week! I had chills! Pleasant once.


----------



## pbl_ge

I didn't know you had a journal! Stalking now! :ninja: 

Thinking of your little eggy and hoping for your bfp! :dust:


----------



## Briss

dovkav, I am so excited for you! this is happening so fast. poor you last night trying to find HCG trigger shot, what a nightmare, so lucky that pharmacy had it and was open so late. your bloods look good and follicle is good size. good luck with egg retrieval tomorrow! try and rest as much as you can tomorrow it's quite an invasive procedure from what I read. 

some studies showed that laying down after transfer does not improve implantation rates. Having said that do what you feel is right and if you feel you prefer to take it easy than do just that. 

are you going to take progesterone after ET?


----------



## dovkav123

Thank you for kind words. It is the begining of our adventure. I feel more connected and bonded with my Dh during tough times.
Yes, I'll take vaginal progesteron. I heard it is no fun.
Any symptoms? Your cycle coming to the end. Will you test or wait for AF?


----------



## Briss

I stopped testing a while ago, it just depresses me and my AF is never ever late, also cos I temp I usually know in the morning that if my temp dropped AF will arrive later that day. but I think I will probably be testing when I do IVF :)


----------



## pbl_ge

The progesterone is indeed no fun. :nope: Panty liners are not optional. :blush:

Briss, where are you researching what can affect transfer success? I'm just now getting into all this stuff, and I'm looking for good resources. :thumbup: 

So did you already trigger? Have you have the egg collection? Hope all went okay! 

:dust:


----------



## Briss

pbl_ge, I am waiting to start my natural cycle IVF. I have a cyst that needs some investigation before we can proceed. I am reading Zita West's book on IVF. it's very good and she always says whether advice is supported by some research or if it's just her observation or intuitive feeling. like she does not recommend any complementary treatments after egg transfer (you can do acu on the day of transfer but not in TWW), no sex, no swimming, no exercise. if you can you should take 1-2 days off after transfer. there is no evidence to support any of these work but it seems like you should go with your gut instinct to make it successful.


----------



## Briss

dovkav, how's your Egg Retrieval? any progress on your embryos?

I contacted my IVf clinic with my results but they said they wont do IVf until I had my MRI and it confirmed that everything is OK. will have to wait and miss next cycle. hopefully if all goes well I can finally start my natural cycle IVF in September. waiting is so stressful and exhausting


----------



## dovkav123

Briss, i know it is possible to get preg with natural IVF, but it may take few cycles. I hope so much that you'll succeed from the first one!
I am in 2ww and reading a lot
Please read:
Avoid sex during traditonal IVF treatment
https://scienceblog.com/community/older/2001/B/200111955.html

Kisspeptin healthier choice for trigger than HCG
https://www3.imperial.ac.uk/newsandeventspggrp/imperialcollege/newssummary/news_18-6-2013-16-42-49


----------



## Briss

dovkav, poor you!! what an ordeal! cant believe they could not get your egg. I thought if there is a follicle there must be an egg. I know it's not always the case with conventional IVF because of stimulation but in your case it was one naturally selected follicle so it must have the best available egg. I am confused. what does it mean the egg stuck to a follicle wall? is it how eggs develop, being attached to the wall and then they separate? judging by your temp you ovulated on wednesday or is it a natural reaction of the ovary following egg retrieval? or is your temp up because you take progesterone? what happened to your blood pressure is just terrible, so lucky your hubby was around and could get help. I had no idea egg retrieval can be so dramatic. the most important thing is that you are still with a chance so fingers crossed IUI will work the treat and you will get your BFP soon!


----------



## dovkav123

Thank you for support, Briss.
An egg is attached to the wall of the follicle and preparing for rupture and escape it. YOu take HCG shot, it will trigger the egg to get loose and after 36 hours to escape the follicle. It is very crucial time to trigger not too early and not too late. If my natural LH surge is on, it is too late to trigger and the cycle can be cancled. If an egg is not matured yet, it is a problem too. Blood test will guide the dr. what to do!
You are right about, that my body selected the best follicle and an egg had to be in there. That's why natural cycle IVF success to low ovarian reserve women is high.
My ER wasn't taht bad! I would go for it again. If my dh lets me.
If you are sensitive to pain, you can ask for sadation.
I hope your IVF will be the first one and the last one!
Your chart looks great!

My temps went down after trigger shot for 2 days and went up next morning after procedure. It was my Natural body response to O. Only That night I took progesteron. Now my temps staying up.


----------



## dovkav123

Update,
I have no hope this cycle. Why did we do IUI? I guess it is a protocol from clinic, dr. didn't catch the egg, so dr. gives us hope for spontanious conception. My tubes are nonfunctioning. If they are open, I have a big chance of tubal preg this month. Why I am taking progesteron? However, I got to know how my body will feel during pregnancy. I have to report some reaction to hormon shots. HCG shot - I got acne on my chin and progesteron- I feel dizzy and I nausea every day. 
I think the follicle was around 20mm during retrieval. Mature egg was there. What happened to it nobody would know.
I would do another natural IVF treatment and I probably will do it again next cycle.


----------



## Briss

dovkav, why do you think you do not have hope for this cycle? you are only 6 DPO, too early to say. have they did HSG to confirm blocked tubes? if not, it's impossible to say and your tubes are most likely fine. my mum was told she wont be able to conceive cos of blocked tubes (they did not have HSG in those days) but a very insistent sperm still got through and my brother was born :) keep thinking positive it's very important

Thank you very much for explaining how it works I did not know egg is attached to the follicle wall inside and gets loose just before being released. I am learning new stuff every day! at my clinic they always do ER with sedation. I guess the benefit of doing it without sedation (if you can tolerate it) is that you can feel if something is not right it will be just too painful. still, probably strange to feel the needle going through your vagina and then into ovary&#8230; 

as you can see I got my period, was very depressed last few days but now getting gradually better and trying to focus on the next cycle. had my 3rd CA 125 and it came at 34 which is just below the threshold so officially negative. I am relieved but anxiously waiting for MRI tomorrow.


----------



## dovkav123

Thank you for putting my hopes up!
I am so glad for your negative test. MRI tomorrow. You'll be in my thoughts.
MRI doesn't have radiation, it won't harm you. Don't worry, everything will be OK. You are healthy, dr. just double checking. Knowledge is a huge power.
Next step will be your IVF! 

:hugs: Briss :hugs:


----------



## Briss

Just had the MRI (very long and uncomfortable procedure so was very grateful that hubby was in the room all the time) but they would not tell me anything. I have a CD with the pictures but afraid to look as I may misinterpret them. Will have to wait until my doctor's appointment in September.

your temp looks good! If it stays around 37 for the next couple of days I'd start testing
:)


----------



## dovkav123

Briss said:


> Just had the MRI (very long and uncomfortable procedure so was very grateful that hubby was in the room all the time) but they would not tell me anything. I have a CD with the pictures but afraid to look as I may misinterpret them. Will have to wait until my doctor's appointment in September.
> 
> your temp looks good! If it stays around 37 for the next couple of days I'd start testing
> :)

You are such a hero! I am so proud of you! You did MRI, that noisy and scary machine! 
I hate that dr. make you wait so long for the results. Hang in here...

My temps stay high, I am taking progesteron, it is a hormonal response, that won't tell me much about pregnancy. I'll take a preg test on Monday just for fun. Sept 4th is my preg blood test, I need that, if it's negative I need to quit progesteron and AF will show up in couple of days.

Happy weekend, enjoy every minute of it!


----------



## pbl_ge

Dovkav, hope you're doing well. :hugs: Stay positive! The progesterone causes a lot of pregnancy-type symptoms, so it can mess with your head during the TWW. :nope: Did you trigger with HCG, too? I hope this cycle works for you!

Briss, hope you get good answers from the doc!


----------



## dovkav123

BFN this morning 12dpo.
My temps are down too. I am taking progesterone. I beleave they should stay high with this hormone. I never had any side effects, maybe I am not responding well to it?
I want to quit it and wait for my period. I hope we are staying couple more months in Germany. I would do 2 more natural cycle IVF and then I'll convince my Dh for a standart one.
My blood test is due on Wednesday. I don't think I should do it. No egg, no embryo...This cycle is hopless.
I'll test again till then.


----------



## Briss

Dovkav, I am very sorry about BFN. 12 DPO could still be early. how long did they tell you to take progesterone? I'd still wait until Wednesday if that's when they suggest testing because it may still happen 

not clear why your temp is down considering you are taking progesterone, maybe that's something to ask your clinic?


----------



## dovkav123

No egg was found in the follicle, no embryo was implanted... I have no hope. I tested 12dpo and 13dpo was negative. I supposed to come today for a blood test on 14dpo, but I didn't go. My heart tells me I am 99% not pregnant. First time in my life I am waiting for my AF to show up and I look forward to start a new natural lVF cycle treatment. I quit progesterone yesterday. My temps were down before quiting it.
If I am 1% preggo, I am not drinking alcohol and I had always good progesterone levels without added hormones in the past.

I'll ask clinic about low temps on progesterone. Maybe the dose is too low? Or My liver processes it too well, too quick? Next time I'll take vaginally and I can compare my temps.

Briss, when is your dr. appointment?


----------



## Briss

you may have good progesterone levels in an natural cycle but it's different when they mess with your follicle. it's the follicle that turns into yellow body after releasing the egg and starts producing progesterone. when they mess with it trying to get the egg out something does not work that's why they give you progesterone. Af symptoms are the same as BFP so it's always confusing which one is it. I'd definitely check with your clinic before changing your meds. 

Something is not right with my ovulation this cycle , I am so tired trying to figure out when I O and plan BD. I am seeing my doc on Monday. trying not to think about it as getting more nervous. 

I am sorry you are getting bfn even if this cycle is not successful I hope you will get your BFP very soon!


----------



## dovkav123

Thank you, Briss.
I know what you mean about the procedure and ruining the yelow body. My temps went high up next morning after retrieval procedure without hormonal supplementation. I beleave My Yellow body is fine. Thank you for concern.
Please ask your RE to look at your follicle on Monday and check your hormone levels. If you BD every other day, you'll catch your O without a doubt!
I looked at your chart. You had a long AF, maybe your O is delaying a bit. You have fertile CM and that's all you need! I have noticed that my CM had dried up on O. You have to BD before O to increase chances. Now it is the time to make your DH happy! You should O in a couple of days, because of your positive OPK.
I hope this cycle will stop playing jokes on you and will you'll end up with BFP!


----------



## Briss

Thanks! with my DH's non existent sex drive BD every other day is a challenge, he said he can only manage once this cycle so I really need to make sure we time it well, what a nightmare!

I am seeing a cancer doc on Monday so he does not really care about my follicles he will only be discussing my cancer markers and MRI. so very scared. if I get all clear from him I can hopefully start my IVF next cycle.


----------



## dovkav123

Briss said:


> Thanks! with my DH's non existent sex drive BD every other day is a challenge, he said he can only manage once this cycle so I really need to make sure we time it well, what a nightmare!
> 
> I am seeing a cancer doc on Monday so he does not really care about my follicles he will only be discussing my cancer markers and MRI. so very scared. if I get all clear from him I can hopefully start my IVF next cycle.

How frustrated you two must feel! May I ask if he has any underlying medical condition?(diabetes, heart problems, depression,thyroid, low testoserone?)

I hope on Monday you'll get good news from your doctor and all your worries will be behind.:hugs:

I tested this morning again BFN. I recharging myself for the next cycle. I did meditation and hypnosis today and fertility massage for an hour. I hope September will be a lucky one for us. When I get my AF, I'll do the castor oil massages.


----------



## Briss

what kind of meditation, hypnosis and fertility massage are you doing? really interesting. I started doing more massages and yoga to get some relaxation. 

My DH's testosterone is on the lower side of normal and he claims he has depression but I do not buy it :)


----------



## dovkav123

Sorry my internet was broken...
Meditation for the evening:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6WG-LnCmYwU
Firtility Hypnosis for any time
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M8tE_oTxkAQ

How was your dr. appointment? Any new?

I bought yesterday maca 500mg tablets with selenium and zinc. It is really helpful with hormone balancing. I am taking 4 a day. 
Maybe your DH could take for a month.
Hope it helps

I am calling today for an ultrasound for Friday. we're doing another IVF. Our jouney to be continued....


----------



## Briss

I saw my MRI results yesterday and my left cyst disappeared!! I am so happy! apparently what they previously said about the cyst having a solid component was probably wrong because clearly the cyst dissolved somehow. the doc said it was probably a shadow. That's what I thought the ovarian pain post O + increased oestrogen levels indicated a simple functional cyst that comes and goes and I was sure it will go away on its own but when they said it would not because it had a solid component I obviously began worrying and then positive CA 125 almost finished me off. the cancer doc said they do not consider CA 125 on its own only in combination with other factors and also if it's cancer it does not go down only up and mine went from 45 to 34. I am so pleased.

we repeated DH's SA today and after he resumed his beer drinking (since May) his count moved down from 11 to 7 million, motility from 58 to 50% but interestingly his morphology move up from 2 to 3%. we were told that they need at least 3 % morphology to do IVF rather than ICSI. I am so hoping we could do that. I am just trying to do it as close to natural as realistically possible. 

I think hubby is getting there morally so I am hoping we could start modified IVF right away. 

thanks for the links, will definitely look into it. my Dh has been taking maca, selenium and zinc (and tonnes of other things) but I do not think they make any noticeable changes. quitting beer was the only thing so far that dramatically improved his count.


----------



## dovkav123

I am so happy for you, Briss! I told you everything will be just fine!:happydance:
:thumbup: that your DH quit beer. I hope you don't need to do ICSI, IVF is closer to nature fertilisation.

Are you planning natural or mini IVF?
Your chart looks great! temps are high. I hope you don't need any IVF!

I am going for an ultrasound and bloodwork tomorrow. Hopefully we'll see a nice eggy growing!


----------



## dovkav123

Sept 13th and Friday....ups.... But it was a lucky for me:thumbup:
Update from a visit to RE
We found beautiful round follicle 18mm on my left side(last month was on the right). :happydance:
I wish O'ed on right side one again. If there is any damage done to the ovary during a procedure at least I have one healthy, left one. I am happy anyways:thumbup:

Blood tests were great. My LH hasn't spyked yet. :happydance:
HCG trigger shot on Saturday 11pm:happydance:
Egg retrieval on Monday at 10am.:happydance:

I realy feel this time we'll be lucky and an egg will be matured and ready to aspirate.

Also on the same chair my RE did a pap smear(cervical cancer screening). It was the most gentle one in the whole world!

I hope you're all enjoying a wonderful and warm weekend!

I called the pharmacy and order meds today, I want to avoid the stress we had last month.
I hope you're all enjoying a wonderful and warm weekend!
:flower:


----------



## Briss

dovkav, very best of luck with your cycle!! I will be keeping my fingers crossed for you. My clinic was supposed to contact me today but did not for some reason. will call them again on monday. My next cycle starts mid next week and I really do not want to miss it.

What meds are you taking?

what's the difference between natural or mini IVF? you might have explained it before I cant remember...


----------



## dovkav123

Hello Briss,
Please call your dr. on Monday. 
If you do a natural IVF cycle, you need to call dr. when AF arrive and he'll make a date for the blood work and ultrasound. My clinic monitors twice on day 7CD and on day 12CD. I don't take any meds, only a trigger shot HCG this helps to prevent premature O and an egg lossin up form the wall of the follicle.

mini IVF costs less and you use minimal dose of meds to stimulate ovaries. You need more ultrasound monitoring. You may have 1-3 mature eggs. The body produces the best quality eggs. This is about quality not quantity. Less chance of ovarian hyperstimulation. Less side effects from meds. You can repeat your treatment next cycle. However; success rate is lower than traditional IVF.
IVF, you start your AF and take a birth control for a week. To shut your cycle. Restart it with meds.
Mini IVF you would start Clomid on the day3 CD and may introduce other injectables later depends on the follicles' growth.

Monday is a big day for you and me! Can't wait for your update!


----------



## Briss

I understand now, my clinic calls mini IVF - modified IVF. there is also natural ivf when they do not use any meds at all. My clinic said we could try modified with me and try to get 2 eggs. I will call them on monday


----------



## dovkav123

WE COUGHT AN EGG! I HAD TEARS OF JOY!
the same Prof. like last month did an ER.
Less pain this time.
First step is done. Looong day of waiting.Tomorrow they'll call if it got fertilised. 
On Thursday is a transfer.



Briss, any news about your IVF?


----------



## Briss

dovkav, congratulations!! this is amazing! fingers crossed it is going to fertilise! you seem to be getting your egg ready very early this cycle CD11? is it usual for you to be ovulating so early? 

We have not booked anything yet, had a bit of an argument with DH and not on speaking terms, kinda hard to go though IVF like this. let's see if we can sort it out today or tomorrow. I still have 2-3 days before the next cycle


----------



## dovkav123

Our baby is waiting for me on Thursday at 12pm. My incubator is on and ready for it!

I hope it will work out.
I hope my success will give you hope too for your mini IVF.


----------



## Briss

dovkav, best of luck for Thursday!!


----------



## dovkav123

I am not alone anymore! 
Embryo transfer was little bit complicated dr. couldn't get into my cervix to my womb, she let this perform to another dr. and she did it great!
We saw a photo of embryo 8cell A grade 3 days old. He is perfect! 
WE saw a follicle first last week, today an embryo. We are so blessed to experience live growing. A reward for all dark days and dissapoinments.
Sept 30th is a blood test.
Dr. orders: no baths and sex for 4 days, no heavy lifting and exercise. Stay warm and rest.
2 years of infirtility, pages of BBT, $$ spent on preg tests, 3 times needle pokes through vaginal wall.
I asked all my closest friends and relatives to pray and ask God for blessings. My grandma went to church, I prayed every day. I Thanked God for giving us a chance to be parents.

Don't give up! Don't ever give up. Don't you ever ever give up!


----------



## Briss

Dovkav, that's just wonderful!! fingers crossed this is it for you!! I've also heard that sex is not recommended after egg transfer, always wondered why. 

I am not any closer to my IVF yet, have been calling the clinic all day, left voicemail, email... no response. AF is due any minute now and I really need to get started already. what is the first day they ask you in for some tests?


----------



## Briss

AF got me today but I am not crying, the main reason is that I am hoping we are doing IVF!!! Finally I managed to speak to somebody at create, apparently I am already on the list for natural modified, scan on Cd 5-6! no CD3 bloods required for natural modified. 

I am just so excited about IVF. am definitely taking time off for EC and ET

I am actually very pleased with my previous cycle, 27 days! O on CD13, temps were good, not sure what to expect from this cycle as I will be taking meds so I guess they will change my cycle.


----------



## dovkav123

Sorry for AF. I am so glad you're staying strong. I am so proud of you!
I've got chills when i read your good news! I am so happy that you called your clinic many times and finally got your answer about IVF.
I am soo excited for you!!!!
CD3 you'll get some blood tests done and probably they'll give you some fertility meds that day.
Let me know how it went!

This month I did have an early O. Maybe maca jumbstarted it:)
I am not taking it anymore. Please slow down with your supplements too.
I was lucky that my clinic doesn't do IVF in the weekend, because there is no one around to help if there is emergency situation. When we found 18mm egg o Friday, I thought it is too late for HCG. If I have my LH surged, the IVF cycle is finished. Fortunatly, My egg had a chance to mature more for 1,5 days before I administered my HCG shot.

No baths and no sex after ER and after ET for 4 days is because dr. afraid of possibility of infection during inercouse.


----------



## Briss

dovkav, they told me that because it's modified cycle I wont need to do any CD3 bloods, I was surprised but that's what they said. I would need to do scan on CD5-6 and I guess I will get my meds then

I am taking EPO cos it really helps with delaying my early ovulation by 1-2 days, just to give a bit more time for my egg to mature but I will ask when the doc calls me today if I should continue, maybe it has some effect on the meds. I also take coq10 and vitamin E. nothing else. 

I get it re sex, I did not think of an infection 

what size should the follicle be for EC?


----------



## dovkav123

Briss said:


> dovkav, they told me that because it's modified cycle I wont need to do any CD3 bloods, I was surprised but that's what they said. I would need to do scan on CD5-6 and I guess I will get my meds then
> 
> I am taking EPO cos it really helps with delaying my early ovulation by 1-2 days, just to give a bit more time for my egg to mature but I will ask when the doc calls me today if I should continue, maybe it has some effect on the meds. I also take coq10 and vitamin E. nothing else.
> 
> I get it re sex, I did not think of an infection
> 
> what size should the follicle be for EC?

I have never heard about EPO. 
My clinic are looking at follicle 14mm and up, estrogen levels 150-200. However last month I had a follicle 14-15mm and I triggered that night. I was told that after trigger the follicle still grows. It grows 1-2 mm a day. Mine probably was 18mm at ER. It was not big enough for me. Unfortunatlly, my RE couldn't find an egg. Couple months ago. My RE found 20mm follicle on day 12CD, and I O'ed that evening.
I saw a study about natural cycle IvF. Dr. look for a follicle 18mm and greater and than trigger that day.
We found 18mm on Friday morning and I triggered Saturday 11pm. Retrieved on Monday at10:30am I don't know my size of the fllicle at retriaval. I asked my RE last month and this month, she never told. She said it is what it suppose to be.:growlmad: She is a proffesor and she is a bit grumpy. However, she did an exellent job!

You can check my blood test results (on the first page) before the trigger. The numbers were the same both months but the size of the follicle were different. Very confusing. The body systems are unpredictable.
Progesteron needs to be low, estrogen high and LH low.
Q-10 and vit E :thumbup:


----------



## Electricat

Stalking

Good luck :flower:


----------



## Briss

my first scan is booked for wednesday. it was so hard to get to speak to anybody, nobody called me yesterday again, but when I called them today it was right the time when they were discussing my case so I am in.

I've been taking EPO (evening primrose oil) for about 1.5 years on and off. I stopped when i was taking chinese herbs cos they did not seem to go well together.


----------



## dovkav123

Big day on Wednesday! Ultrasound for you and testing for me!
Praying for good news.


----------



## Briss

dovkav, I am keeping my fingers crossed for you! Do you have any unusual symptoms? 

I started eating lots of avocados, protein and olive oil &#8211; is supposed to improve egg quality.


----------



## dovkav123

Briss said:


> dovkav, I am keeping my fingers crossed for you! Do you have any unusual symptoms?
> 
> I started eating lots of avocados, protein and olive oil &#8211; is supposed to improve egg quality.

Everybody (IVF community)swears for a pineapple core (bromelain) good for impantation! I eat that every day. Avocados, beets, flaxseed oil, olive oil-spoon full, lentils, chicken soup, yogurt, oatmeal, walnuts, brocoli(cruciferous) Those are all super foods! I am not skipping breakfast anymore. I need to feed a little one:).
I quit caffeine the day of ET. I know it constricts the blood vessels and Oh well we don't want that to happen this in the uterus. Maybe I'll go back to my green tea later.
Day of ET I had an ovary pain hour after transfer and all evening, headache.
Second day, mild Ovary pain and mild headache,in the evening needle pokes on my uterus for a sec. That was amazing feeling. Felt it was a good sign.
Third day after a morning bathroom, uterine contractions for a few sec.
I feel nothing so far now. my embie is a bit more than 7 days old.(I didn't have ovary pain after retrieval, ET caused it)
Hey, it s to early to test in 2 days. I'll wait couple days longer! What do you think? Maybe on 27th? I have no guts to do it at all!!!!Help!!!


WHY THE SKELETON DIDN'T CROSS THE STREET?
HE DIDN'T HAVE GUTS!


----------



## Briss

re pineapple core (bromelain), totally agree, I ate a pineapple a day for a few cycles for a about a week after O, did not make any difference but I love pineapples so it was not hard. 

that needle pokes in your uterus sound very promising!! 

I'd wait for as long as you can before testing because implantation can occur later, or it may take more time for the pregnancy hormone to appear in your urine, bfn is always frustrating better to wait as close as you can to your AF day and know for sure.

I think I am going to make this cycle as healthy as I can, we already decided that we are doing 3 IVFs with a few cycles in between each so if no luck this time I can relax with a cup of cappuccino next cycle. feel very motivated to give it my best this cycle. you are right about breakfast, I am going to start eating porridge every day. I also drink fresh wheatgrass juice almost daily - quite a challenge cos it tastes quite bad


----------



## dovkav123

I just remember, Don't forget to eat STEAK.
I am a poultry and fish eater. I am on endo diet and anti-inflammatory diet and steak is not endo friendly. I should eat once a week, I love it with roasted garlic, onions and hot pepper!
3 oz of steak has 1,5mg of iron, woman needs 18mg. Only 1.5mg that's very little; however, the quality is the best! Our body absorbs the best iron from steak. If you eat vitamin C (salat with lemon)with it, iron will absorb even better! Milk products will steal iron. Avoid soucream sauce on the steak, or even oatmilk porage with milk.
I did have a borderline hemoglobulin, I felt tired after eating, I had to take naps, I slept 12 hours at night and still felt tired in the morning. I had Deadly 
cold feet and hands, only a hot bath could bring them to life!
I took Floradix drink for a few weeks and I felt normal again! It has ferrous gluconate, herbs and fruit coctail. Tastes fruity and sweet. https://www.floradix.net/

I ate steak today. It is awfully expensive here i Germany. It costs 21 euro a kg, in US it is half the price!

Good luck tomorrow! :thumbup:Big and juicy follicle!


----------



## Briss

Just had my first scan and appointment with the nurse at the clinic &#8211;altogether took about 3 hours, lots to take in! 

AMH: apparently my AMH was misleading cos it was done abroad and they used different units&#8211; it was in ng/mL but supposed to be in pmol/L. After the conversion my depressing 1.38 turned into fairly respectable 9.9!: 1.38 ng/mL x 1000 mL/1 L x 1 mol/140 kg = 9.9 pmol/L. 

Protocol: since my AHM improved the doc said we should really look into fully stimulated IVF cos we will get 10% more of success rates. also he said my previous AFC was not indicative cos the cyst on the left could have prevented them from seeing more follicles. if we are to do fully stimulated cycle we should skip this one cos stimulation starts from CD2. Obviously, my hopes started to get up but then we had a scan and I ended up with only 6 follicles! previously it was 9. how depressing is this? so he stopped talking about stimulated cycle and we are going ahead with modified natural, as planned. He also said that my FSH does not correspond to my AMH and AFC, he's seen it before but it's very rare so basically my stats are very contradictory. 

Follicles: CD6: 6 follicles: 1 on the right and 5 on the left; two of them are 10-11 mm; one 7 mm; the rest below 6 mm. For some reason my right ovary is not producing many follicles 1-2, I wonder if it's because of the cyst. 

lining: 5.78 &#8211; he said it's very good. no idea what it means cos AF is still here. 

Fees: we paid about 4,000 pounds; but there will be more to pay for the meds 

Injections: what???!!! I am in shock! I know I should not be but for some reason I persuaded myself that there will be no injections since it's just very mild stimulation, almost none, I will be taking tablets. So not the case!! it's going to be injections at least once a day into my tummy fat!! probably starting from today&#8230; I am so scared I cant even think about it. I did some bloods today and based on the results they will tell me today whether I should start the injections today.


----------



## Briss

CD6:
estrogen: 295
LH 5.6

the doc said my estrogen is not too high (so it does not indicate that my follicles are cysts, which he was afraid of cos they seemed to be quite large) and I could proceed with injections.

I've just injected my tummy with a needle!!! but it's not that bad. the whole thing took me 20 min most of which was watching youtube videos on how to inject yourself with menopur. I did not feel a thing when the needle went in (was concentrating on pinching my belly fat really hard!) but then it got messy cos menopur did not want to go in and I was pressing and it was really slow so when I took it out I started bleeding. still not too bad, although there is a small mark left. 

CD6 and CD7: 150 IU Menopur
CD8: scan


----------



## dovkav123

Briss,
You produced 6 follicles without meds? Is that true?
I would start with mild stimulation first, minimum as possible. You don't know how your body reacts to it. It is very dangerous to over stimulate your ovaries.

I looked at youtube too for my first shot. I did it in the dim light, in the car, near the river with a a view of the castle:)

You did it! I am very proud of you! it wasn't that scary.:nope:

If your nr. improved, maybe NH can pay for your IVF?
You are so blessed that you can afford to pay for your treatment. You are so lucky. Some are less fortunate.

My urine is sitting in the bathroom and looking at me, and I am looking at it:haha: I can't do it!

My hubby is not here. I want to do it with him. I guess the urine will be too old by this afternoon. I guess I'll test tomorrow. It will be only 11 days. My little bean is only 11 days old.
Symptoms: tired all day yesterday without a reason, nausea minimum, tingle breasts, minimum uterine contractions. Very bright and colourful dreams.
I had non of the symptom last cycle. I was on progesterone too. I have hope.


----------



## Briss

dovkav, I am not really sure how it works with follicles cos I thought 6 was low, for my age they expect your AFC to be around 15, my last scan showed 9 follicles and the doc was kind of expecting to see more this time but there was only 6. Out of these 6 there was only 2 large ones (one on each ovary), the rest were quite small. I think the small ones will vanish unless they are supported by meds. They started me on 150 UI menopur yesterday and tbh, I am not feeling that great. could not sleep at all. 

your first shot was very romantic! I did mine in our living room, quite ordinary really. Did you have to do any meds this cycle?

The NHS is looking at FSH rather than AMH when they decide whether you pass the test for IVf funding. I have doubts I want to go with the NHS because they do not sponsor natural IVF, only the most stimulated variety &#8211; scary 

I think it might still a little bit early for you to test? maybe wait a couple of days? I am so hoping this is it for you!!


----------



## dovkav123

I took only HCG trigger and progesterone.
AAAAAh,You are talking about antral follicle count. 8 on each side suppose to be a good nr. I don't know mine. Don't worry it takes only one.
Did you know, Ovary selects 1 or 2 dominant follicles each month, eggs matures and than O. It selects form 100-800 dormant, antral follicles.
I hope next U/S will give us good news.

German insurance will not cover any firtility treatment for a husband who is over 49. Why don't they check sperm first!


----------



## dovkav123

BFN this morning, very sad and stressful morning. I hate testing.
I always waited for my AF. It suppose to show up in 6-7 days.
I hope it is too early. 
Monday is a big day and I'll wait for that. 
My dr. warned me, DON"T TEST AT HOME! OUR PATIENT TESTED NEGATIVE AND SHE WAS PREGNANT. IT IS VERY DANGEROUS!


----------



## Briss

dovkav, I totally agree with your doc, I've seen it many times testing too early, getting bfn feeling stressed and upset and then a few days later AF comes and then stops and then you get a bfp &#8211; how weird is this? it happens a lot so fingers crossed and let patience be your friend the next few days. Good luck!!


----------



## Briss

CD 8 Bloods: was told it's very good
Estrogen: increased from 295 (CD6) to 632
LH: incleased from 5.6 (CD6) to 6.5 

Follicles: CD8 &#8211; 3 dominant follicles; 
left: there has been some progress and 3 follicles grew a little bit: from 10mm to 13; from 7 to 9mm; from 5 to 7 mm; there are two little one which did not seem to grow. 
right: unfortunately my only 10mm follicle did not grow at all; it's possible that it's empty but can only find out for sure at EC; I did not ask whether I have enough follicles and how fast they grow and how does it compare to others because I just do not want to get obsessed with it; I feel like I have no control whatsoever and I do not feel like the clinic can control the process either; they placed me on a fairly standard protocol and vary it little bit but generally it's outside of their control so I let it go. 

lining: I think it's about 7 , triple layer &#8211; she said it's very good and blood flow is also very good. Although I am still spotting

meds: I am to continue daily menopur; + from today I am to add one more shot of cetrotide a day (to suppress ovulation); I can do both shots at the same time.

Cyst on the right: looks like it's not been affected by menopur; no change in size (I am very happy about that)

Side effects: headache is my constant companion; it just never goes away; started about 30 min after my first shot and is constantly there; it's driving me slightly crazy. I had the same reaction when I tried contraception pills &#8211; constant headache and I was told I am not suited to this type of protection and should stick to condoms

Scan: next scan is scheduled for Sunday CD 10


----------



## dovkav123

Briss said:


> CD 8 Bloods: was told it's very good
> Estrogen: increased from 295 (CD6) to 632
> LH: incleased from 5.6 (CD6) to 6.5
> 
> Follicles: CD8 &#8211; 3 dominant follicles;
> left: there has been some progress and 3 follicles grew a little bit: from 10mm to 13; from 7 to 9mm; from 5 to 7 mm; there are two little one which did not seem to grow.
> right: unfortunately my only 10mm follicle did not grow at all; it's possible that it's empty but can only find out for sure at EC; I did not ask whether I have enough follicles and how fast they grow and how does it compare to others because I just do not want to get obsessed with it; I feel like I have no control whatsoever and I do not feel like the clinic can control the process either; they placed me on a fairly standard protocol and vary it little bit but generally it's outside of their control so I let it go.
> 
> lining: I think it's about 7 , triple layer &#8211; she said it's very good and blood flow is also very good. Although I am still spotting
> 
> meds: I am to continue daily menopur; + from today I am to add one more shot of cetrotide a day (to suppress ovulation); I can do both shots at the same time.
> 
> Cyst on the right: looks like it's not been affected by menopur; no change in size (I am very happy about that)
> 
> Side effects: headache is my constant companion; it just never goes away; started about 30 min after my first shot and is constantly there; it's driving me slightly crazy. I had the same reaction when I tried contraception pills &#8211; constant headache and I was told I am not suited to this type of protection and should stick to condoms
> 
> Scan: next scan is scheduled for Sunday CD 10

Nice report! Very good results. Your folllies growing like on the yeast!
I am very happy for you!
Why do you need to suppress O now. Follicles are not mature yet.
What follicle size your dr. wants to see for the retrieval?
I hope your headache will be a lit better. You are so close to EC. You'll see the time will fly by!
Are you gonna take HCG trigger 36 hours before ER?


----------



## Briss

I think they put me on cetrotide so they are sure there wont be any accidental ovulation before the time. I will have to take trigger shot 35 hours before EC. they think that EC will probably happen next wednesday but we will have to wait and see. I am not sure how large my follicles are supposed to be. I think there is still a long way to go and things may change. 

Am preparing myself for double injection :)


----------



## dovkav123

Briss,
I want to suggest something very important to you.
Take HCG shot in the evening and the next day take a preggo test, make sure you get positive. First time dr. didn't find an egg too, maybe the shot was at falt. 
I didn't do it, but I will the next time....

Lorna from Babyandbump took a shot and dr. couldn't find eggs from 4 follicles. I am happy she has 8 more left, so she'll do another shot and EC on Monday. DR. couldn't beleave it. Nothing like this ever happened to him. The follicle's fluid had no traces of HCG. Isn't that crazy? All this anesthesia, emotional breakdown, heartbreak...
Maybe the dose was not enough, or was not administered properly or not on time.
I took 250mcrg of Ovitrel, but some clinic sadvise 500mcrg. BMI matters? Maybe.

After dinner I got dizzy, I had to lay down. My blood pressure was Ok. Since Yesterday I have a stuffy nose and feel like I'll get sick. Also I am very thirsty, slept very bad last night. Too many trips to the bathroom.
I am praying for Monday 8am. The results I should now by afternoon.

You'll be an expert in poking yourself soon! Go, girl, Go!
I can't beleave that we need to take this road to happiness! Who knew?


----------



## Briss

Thanks so much for heads up! I had no idea ovidrel can give false BFP; did a bit of googling and apparently it can still be in your system for 14 days giving you a false positive. 

My BMI is 19-20 so i guess one shot would be enough to trigger O. Apparently, ovidrel does not trigger O when follicles are in fact cysts and don't contain eggs. As far as I could gather the clinic is supposed to check your Estrogen levels during your cycle and before triggering to make sure these are follicles and not cysts. Every time I have my scan they check estrogen because from the first scan they were suspecting that my larger follicles might turn out to be cysts but estrogen was not too high they got comfortable that these were follicles. I really hope so. 

I have a lot of unused pregnancy tests so i am going to start doing them daily after the trigger shot just to make sure it worked and check how long it will take to get it out of my system. it's going to be depressing to see your pregnancy test getting fainter every day...


----------



## Briss

CBFM: HIGH

Scan: 2 dominant follicles; left follicle 16 mm (grew 3 mm in 2 days); right follicle: 11 mm; other follicles reduced in size; for egg collection follicles need to be at least 17 mm; slightly depressing cos right follicle is most likely empty and was not increasing in size as it should; basically we have almost the same result if i had not taken the meds: one dominant follicle; either menopur is not working for me or I need larger doses to see any effect; I could have just gone with no stimulation at all and still get one follicle; My left ovary is very sensitive I feel like I am about to O and if it was not for Cetrotide I'd be most likely ovulating now. 

Lining: 11.4 mm; triple layer  I am not sure what this means and what are the other options for the lining but they all keep saying it's promising. I was spotting until CD9 which is way too long and has not happened in many years; 

Cyst on the right: 24x22x23; roughly the same size as before; still not being affected by the meds; very happy about that 

Bloods:
Estrogen: increased from 632 (CD8) to 1,100; was told it's promising; it almost doubled in 2 days and i guess that prompted my CBFM to move to HIGH;
LH: stayed the same at 6.5 (being suppressed with meds)

Meds:
150 IU Menopur
0.25 mg Cetrotide

Scan: next scan is scheduled for CD 11

My headache got better but i am still no closer to getting used to the injections. Feel slightly defeated today by the scan results but I guess we wont know anything until egg collection which may happen on wednesday.


----------



## Briss

CD 11

CBFM: HIGH
OPK: 4 pm negative; 7 pm - positive

Scan: 2 dominant follicles; left follicle 18.8 mm (grew 2.8 mm in 1 day); right follicle: 12.6 mm (grew 1.6 mm in 1 day);* ready for egg collection! Blood flow to the left follicle and uterus is very good; they also noticed some CM - also good; Even though the right follicle is small I was told there is still a chance it has a viable egg. I asked why menopur did not work in making me develop more follicles and was told that it has nothing to do with menopur as it can only help develop follicles that have viable eggs; each cycle is different and it so happened that this cycle I probably only have 1-2 good eggs; the rest vanished because they never meant to be this cycle;

Lining: 10.6 mm; triple layer* - seem less than yesterday but i guess it depends on the way each practitioner measures it; 

Cyst on the right: 25x28x29; roughly the same size as before; still not being affected by the meds; very happy about that 

Bloods:
Estrogen: increased from 1,100 (CD10) to 1,529 - good; 
LH: increased from 6.5 to 16 despite being suppressed - very bad!! I did several OPKs - negative so I was advised to start taking 50 mg Indometacin in order to keep follicles from disintegrating; I did some google search and only found studies on rats... I asked if we should move EC for tomorrow but because my OPK were negative they decided to proceed as planned; I can only hope we wont miss that egg by Wednesday; I repeated my OPK later in the evening and it was positive (4 hours before the trigger shot). i called the clinic's emergency number but they said we will have to risk it as tomorrow the follicle wont be mature enough for EC. Indometacin should help prevent early ovulation but it's not a guarantee. 

Meds:
250 micrograms Ovitrelle - 11 pm trigger shot (originally I was advised to take double dose (500) for some reason even though my BMI is normal but after it appears that my LH increased so much I was advised to take just 250 micrograms Ovitrelle. She told me it's unlikely that Ovitrelle can fail but i can check my monitor tomorrow for LH surge and it should give me a PEAK;
50 mg Indometacin - supposed to start taking this anti inflammatory drug 3 times a day up until egg collection which hopefully going to keep my follicles in place.

Egg Collection CD 13; there is still a risk of early ovulation


----------



## Briss

Dovkav, I followed your advice and had a huge steak for lunch today; trying to feed my follicles :) How is it going? have you tested again?


----------



## dovkav123

Sorry girls I kept you waiting.
I got BFN on my blood test. Only today I could think what we could do next. It takes 2 weeks to see my RE and talk about failed IVF. I am willing to do mini IVF little stimulation, retrieve 3 eggs. But my hubby doesn't like that idea. He wants me to repeat natural IVF again. He is choosing slower but healthier way of treatment.
2 things could be the reason of our BFN:
My hubby had a low motility, so they did ICSI. 
My ET went really bad. My hubby saw how dr. forced that embryo in, he is doubt if an embryo really got in where it suppose..to..First try she did it smoothly without an embryo....

I burned badly on our IVF, but that won't stop me a bit, I'll go forward even faster, because I was soooo close to the victory.

I had 18mm follicle in the morning and I took ovitrel next day in the evening. You are on the same schedule like I was, I pray you'll be on time for EC.
P.S. drink lots of water!!! and take your preg. test before ER


----------



## sekky

Was following your progress Dovkav. Sorry you got a bfn this time. Hopefully DH allows you to do minimal stimulation next cycle and you get you rainbow baby. Hugs


----------



## Briss

dovkav, I am so sorry about BFN, how disappointing :( it would be interesting if they could tell you whether there was something with egg/sperm quality or implantation? I do not think motility was an issue. why did she have to force it in during ET? 

I agree with your hubby that natural cycle is probably better; I had mild stimulation but in the end I am lucky if we get 2 eggs tomorrow, most likely one which is the same result if I did not have any stimulation. 

i am getting slightly scared about ER tomorrow, there is a chance I ovulated today. will check my temp in the morning before leaving.


----------



## dovkav123

Thinking about you, good luck!:hugs:


----------



## Briss

IVF Update EC/ CD 13

Temp: raised, was concerned about early ovulation; asked to do a scan before EC - left follicle was in place. I am now questioning my temp method and all other ovulation symptoms as I felt very strongly that I already ovulated; everything pointed towards it and that's exactly how I usually feel the next day after O. I was so sure we missed the egg and when it turned out that I had not ovulated yet I started wondering whether we BD too early when we TTC naturally. the doc said the temp is not reliable but they do trust OPK. I guess I was supposed to O later today naturally. 

EC: Left follicle: very straightforward; egg came off straight away; right follicle: too close to the cyst and very small - decided not to take the risk of puncturing the cyst and not attempt collecting an egg from the right follicle; DH was very disappointed as it seems all this trouble with daily injections of menopur - all for nothing but I am pleased they did not take the risk. sedation was fine, they injected some painkillers which felt like morphine :) and made me want to smile and then I fell asleep; they woke me up about 10 min after I even managed to have a dream. did not feel a thing. There was a bit of pain near the cervix; no bleeding following the procedure; 

SA/ICSI: unfortunately we ended up with poor sample: 5.5 million; 27% motility and only 1% morphology so there was no other option but to do ICSI; the embryologist said that even if DH's sample was of better quality they would still recommend doing ICSI in our case because if his previous SA which were never good enough. the chances of fertilisation are about 70%. They called me later on to tell me that the egg was mature and all is well; they managed to proceed with ICSI; 

ET: the next important point is tomorrow: the egg is supposed to (i) fertilise and (ii) divide into two sells. if all goes well then on friday morning they will check if the egg is divided into further 3-5 sells (about 90%) and if so they will call me in for transfer; if not then there is no point in doing the transfer as something is not right with the embryo. As I have only one egg they prefer to transfer 2 day embryo as they believe it has better chances of developing inside my uterus than in a lab. 

Meds: 
7 am: 50 mg Indometacin (trying to keep the egg in place and avoid early ovulation)
after Egg Collection:
Cyclogest 2x400 mg (Progesterone): two options vaginally or rectally. I personally would probably go for rectally as I do not want anything to interfere with my vaginal flora so it's good to go for natural TTC next cycle if things do not work out. 
Clexane 20 mg/0.2ml: just as I thought I am done with injections, they make me do blood thinning injections daily for the next 2 weeks!!!! starting from tonight. I honestly did not see it coming.


----------



## dovkav123

Congrats on your eggy!:flower::happydance:-1 step is over! Cheers! 
Fertilisation is next.
My hubby had a small only .5 ml sperm collection(we BD a night before) we thought if we won't catch an egg, we'll try naturally.
sample after concentration
.5ml .1ml
motility 60million 2m
progressive mot 16% 100%
immotile 76% 0%
motile in circles 8% 0%

I don't understad why motility went so drasticly down after a workup.
morphology they didn't check, in May he had 19%. Motility was too low, so they helped out. Dr. never told us about ICSI, i found out in papers. Maybe ICSI was not the reason we failed.
why the blood thinners? I read that women after 35 is a good idea to take aspirin for fertility.
Are you achy tonight?
progesterone I agree, put in rectum, because this hormone may irritate cervix
Next time I will do 2 day transfer too, more days after O my uterus or cervix changes, that's why dr. can not get in there easy!!!!


----------



## Briss

they think the blood thinners help with lining and implantation, I never took aspirin cos I did not think it was an issue for us but here they seem to think it's necessary. 

I do not have any pains at the moment, although feel very tired and sleepy.


----------



## dovkav123

It's a big day today. Good luck, praying for you.


----------



## Briss

CD 14, Day 1 post EC: fertilisation occurred! 

I am so thrilled. I feel like I love that little embryo already and wish I could hug it! I know most people, when going through IVF, are more worried about implantation and what happens in TWW. My concern has always been what happens before the transfer. I doubted my DH's sperm is capable of fertilising anything, I do not know why I thought so but I did. I am very happy that I was proved wrong and that at least we passed this stage. The next stage is anxiously waiting for the egg to start dividing. At the moment it's still one sell, it has two parts: my and DH's but only now it is going to start dividing into more sells. They gave us about 90% chance. We wont know if it happened until tomorrow but they told me to be prepared to come for ET tomorrow with full bladder.


----------



## dovkav123

I have chills! I am so happy for you!
Little life is there, boy or girl, character, soul, appearance. I know how you feel!
Rest well, girl. Your baby is growing in warm and peaceful place. He is waiting for you.
2 weeks ago, I thought he is sooo lonely and scared in the dark. 
Stay postive and dream only colorful future!

P.S. don't forget to ask your dr. a copies of SA and an embryo assesment papers(discharge papers)


----------



## Briss

Thanks so much for the tip re a copies of SA and an embryo assesment papers, I had not idea I was supposed to get those.


----------



## Briss

IVF Update CD 15

Day 2 post EC: embryo transfer!

Our wonderful embryo divided into 4 perfect sells today with no fragmentation. I was told that's the best we could have hoped for. I do not know if that's true i think they try to make everyone feel positive about their embryos but I am grateful. I am completely in love with our embryo :) it's amazing to think I may have a new life inside of me.

The transfer was very straightforward and I could not feel much at all. it took about 2 min but there was about 10 min preparation time, they inserted a larger catheter through the cervix and then embryologist came in with a smaller catheter containing the embryo that went into the larger catheter. i even have a picture of a small cloud with the embryo (cant see it though) and liquid being injected into my uterus. There have been about 3 hour wait though but that's not the worst part. Full bladder - that's the challenge! I was failing miserably on this front, had to empty my bladder twice before I reached the transfer, 20 min in there seemed like ages cos I just could not hold it in. I can deal with pain but I completely cant deal with peeing deprivation. I had to pee about 10 min after the ET :( not ideal but they said it's completely fine, I am still scarred by this experience and cant stop peeing at home... 

it's going to take a few days for the embryo to grow and further divide and then hopefully it will start implanting into my lining. I am due for pregnancy blood test on 16 Oct. In the meantime I carry on with Cyclogest 2x400 mg (Progesterone) and Clexane 20 mg/0.2ml. I took today and Monday off, am going to pumper myself and take it easy and now have no regrets about missing out on the business trip, I think it's very likely that we have now come closer to achieving a pregnancy than ever before. I cant stop smiling. 

I have to say that natural IVF is very manageable and I think I can even do it every cycle but probably best to have it every 2-3 cycles so the body could recover its hormonal balance. I would be very interested to discuss menopur and other stimulation meds as it might be that we should just go completely natural with no stimulation. Having just one egg is risky but than you cant transfer more than two anyway and freezing is not the best way I think. 

It would have been nice to have DH with me for ET but he could not take any more time off.


----------



## dovkav123

:happydance::happydance::happydance::happydance:
Great news! Now I can go to bed!
You even got a photo of your baby on the ultrasound, a little cloud:cloud9:
How cute!
Keep smiling and stay positive, I'll pray every day for you till!
I am happy you have had a good experience with this IVF.

How long did you lay down after ET? 
Did your dr. wear a hat, mask and coat? In US they take ET very seriously.In Germany no, the same like IUI
Any special dr. orders?


----------



## Briss

dovkav, thank you so much for your support! have you stopped progesterone? what's your plan for the next cycle?


----------



## dovkav123

Yes I have stopped my progesterone and I have my period now. No different.
My hubby is against injectables for now. We'll do another natural IVF this month. The next month I'll push for injectables.
WE debate if we should change the clinics. Our ET didn't go well. I read that too much cervical manipulation can cause hormone oxytocin to elevate and that can cause uterine contractions and I had those in 2ww. In my clinic gynecologist, not RE did the transfer, only the egg retrieval did RE. They performed ET the same method like your clinic. Dr. tried to push the soft catheter w/o embryo first and she did it smoothly, with embryo, she got stuck and had to push???!!! So heartbreaking..:cry:
We'll talk to a supervisor and discuss our experience, we can't see him till middle of OCT, but we'll just drop in on Monday.
Next cycle I'll do things different
1. I'll take 400mg progesterone, not 600mg. My blood levels were very high, 140, the levels of second semester. I read that this hormone thickens the blood. It is so smart that you are on the blood thinners!
2. we'll save 3 days for the sperm collection, no caffeine that morning for DH.
3. we'll transfer 2day embryo.
4. I'll demand the photo of the ultrasound after the ET. My huby needs to look at the ultrasound, not at my beauty:flower:


----------



## Briss

Very good plan. well done on going ahead this cycle! I am not sure about injectables as we ended up having one egg anyway. 

It may make sense changing the clinic if next attempt is not successful. Unfortunately I only know two clinics in London that do natural IVF, it's not very popular here. 

I had the same lady doing EC and ET but I think it's just an accident, every time I came for a scan there was a different doc but i know they make decisions collectively.

I wonder why she had issue pushing the small catheter with your embryo cos it is not supposed to go through the cervix but through the larger catheter which is not supposed to have any obstructions? actually there was two ladies the doc and embryologist, and the embryologist started inserting the small catheter and then the doc took over. 

1. I am taking 400mg progesterone twice a day so it comes to 800 mg a day. blood thinners are quite painful and I get headaches

3. 2 day embryo naturally is supposed to swim alone one of the fallopian tubes not be in the uterus so it's not exactly the right environment but the clinic thinks it's still better than the lab. what day embryo did you get on ET?

4. the photo is quite funny cos you cant really see much :) 

I asked about the papers on embryo as you suggested but they were surprised. told me they will send it to me by post.


----------



## dovkav123

How are you feeling? 

I think that tube or uterus has the same enviroment for emby to grow and divide. When we have only one, there is no reason to keep it longer in the lab. We transfered day 3. Dr. called me, announced fertilisation and told me to come the next day, but my RE told me to come in 3 days, so we did the 3 day.

I saw an article that women get preggo latest 4th time with natural IVF. They were older than me. I think we'll be lucky soon, just need to stay possitive and keep doing massages, meditations, eating fatty fish, nuts and seeds and lots of protein to help my follie to grow. Now we know more about my body, we have better strategy and more hope, we were so close to victory!

I have a secret wish, I hope I'll have two folicles next time. My grandmother (my mom's mom) had non -identical (fartenal?)twins, this do run into family gene.

About the ET, I think the main catheter was not placed right in the first place, when the emby catheter went in it, slipped out. WE don't know, we'll never know. I hate changing clinics, I hope next time RE will transfer it, she did my hysteroscopy and she went in perfectly. Next time I won't let them try so hard, if they can't do it, I'll come later in few hours or next day.

If my follie will grow the same speed like last month, retrieval should be on Sunday. Bump, we'll be bumped because they don't do IVF in the weekend. I have another clinic close by, I can contact them. Now help me here, please. 1.Should I tell them the whole story about problems to retrieve in the weekend, 2. should I just make an appointment for IVF and than cancel if my follie is slow growing and retrieval in the following week. 3. Just go with a new clinic and pay tripple price.
here is an interesting study
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2582079/

Briss, thank you for support, you're my hope. WE need only one sperm and one egg and we'll prove it to the world that we are superwomen and we went against all odds to the victory!
Will you test it out your HCG?

Please let your hubby to pamper you, you deserve the best!
Enjoy your days off and your weekend.
here are some videos for you:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6WG-LnCmYwU&list=HL1380992767

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kcJWPWb2uBs


----------



## Briss

How many sells did your 3 day embryo have?

twins is a great dream, i think my dh was disappointed with just one egg cos he hoped for twins :)

cant they just give you meds to keep your follicle in place for a day longer so the EC/ET is not on weekend? 

I have doubts about your clinic cos I think it's already twice that something was not quite right with the way they conducted the procedure. I'd probably try again because the prices are just really attractive but then move to a different clinic.

I am not sure If I will be testing as I am afraid of getting false positive after the trigger, I will probably still test just before my blood test so i am prepared for the outcome and wont start crying in the clinic.

I had a bit of cramping couple of times today, I immediately lied down hugging my tummy and the cramping stopped. I also seem to develop constipation from the progesterone. Hubby got me prunes which is supposed to help with that. i think I need to make sure it's all working properly to avoid toxins accumulating in that area. 

My colleagues are trying to make me work on Monday but i am resisting as much as I can, i really want proper relaxation. I think my wonderful embryo will become blastocyst on Monday and may start implanting so i really want to give it the best possible stress free environment :)


----------



## Briss

TMI I had a tiny bit of brown spotting today when I wiped :( I never ever spot in the middle of TWW, may be progesterone is not working but either way it's not a good sign. am trying not to cry. it was supposed to reach blastocyst stage tomorrow and start implanting... I did have a bit of cramping yesterday but i was trying to stay in bed most of the day


----------



## dovkav123

WE transfered 8A embryo, but dr. told us it has more than 8 cells. Nobody know exact age of embryo. When was it fertilised?
Never TMI for me. Shouldn't be any TMI between women.
Briss,
1. progesterone may cause spotting, esspecially the vaginal one.
2. Your blood thinner. You are at risk of bleeding, even little scratch may bleed.
3. It is an old blood, maybe still from transfer, your cervix was irritated.
4.Do you take progesterone rectally? It can change your bowel movement. Constipation can cause bleeding.

Stay in bed as much as you can, allow yourself only shower and bathroom.
I had cramping too, ovarian pain, but I had no spotting till my AF.

5.maybe it is implantation, emby grows it's own paste and maybe faster in optimal conditions.

In natural IVF study, dr. also transfered 2 day embryos and they resulted in pregnancies.

"Although stable at room temperature, once you insert a vaginal or rectal progesterone suppository, the preparation begins to melt due to your body temperature. What may appear to you to be spotting due to vaginal bleeding may actually be a small amount of leakage, from the vagina or anus, of the liquefied suppository. Certain formulations of progesterone suppositories are associated with orange and brown discharge due to the medication itself. If you are having difficulty discerning whether the spotting is due to the suppository or vaginal bleeding, talk to your doctor"



Read more: https://www.livestrong.com/article/...-of-progesterone-suppositories/#ixzz2gwwKyAmR

Praying for you, girl.


----------



## Briss

i do progesterone rectally, not vaginally. and i do have constipation, so annoying. I started eating prunes :) but spotting was definitely vaginal not rectal. the doc said i should increase my progesterone to every 8 hours, 1,200 mg a day.

i got a faint positive today, it's most likely false one from the trigger short. i wonder when it's going out of my system


----------



## dovkav123

did you contact your clinic? Did dr. increased your progesterone?

My dr. told me in a week HCG should be out of my system.
I tested CD22. 13 days after HCG and it was snow white blahhh.

I have those short crying episodes since my period came. The summer ended, and I am still not preggo. Cloudy sky makes me unhappy. I want to go back to California, where it is 25 degrees and sunny sky. But I am not leaving Germany till I get preggo.
Today I am very proud of myself, I meditated, exercised, massaged my pelvic area, heated it. I ate dandelion salat, pumpkin seed, flaxseeds. Grow follies, grow! They grow different speed every month. In August on CD11 it was only 14-15mm. This September on CD8 18mm. I'll just relax and go with a flow...
This cycle I'll take 3g fish oil pills. It helps with autoimmunity problems, which endometriosis can cause.
Also fresh garlic and ginger. Those will help me if I have blood clot disorder. I should buy resveratrol pills and green tea pills too. Ginger is better blood thinner than aspirin.

Probiotic 20billion repair gut lining and treat candida. I used to have candida on the corner of my lip.

I am eating lots of grapes from our garden, they are very small but sweet.
Floradix, I am taking iron supplement. Minimum amount it has herb and fruit blend that prevents from constipation.


----------



## Briss

you grow grapes in your garden? wow!! that's amazing. I did not know you lived in California before moving to Germany. I wonder what US fertility clinics are like. Do you know they are keep on natural IVF?

well done on meditation and the rest of it, really healthy and an excellent boost to your follicles. 

i called the clinic and they said it's not necessarily bad news yet but advised that I increased progesterone. constipation is killing me, my tummy looks like I am at least 6 months pregnant but prunes definitely started working today :) finally!

Thanks for the article, that's really interesting 

I think I will start testing every day to see if the line disappears and then hopefully appears again for real :)

Cramping is still there although I spent last two day on my sofa, every time i get up i feel cramping :( 

I take 1 g fish oils, 1 g vit C, 800 folate (not folic acid) and prenatals 

I will start making ginger tea, good idea. i knew it had worming properties did not know it was a blood thinner.


----------



## Briss

This is interesting, I did not realise ET is so important I assumed it was a very easy and straightforward procedure, apparently the doc's experience at ET determines the success of IVF. having read this I do think you may want to look into a different doc cos your ET was not uneventful and is probably the reason for bfn. 

"The embryo transfer is the most crucial step in the In Vitro Fertilization procedure/process. You can have the best quality embryos, but if they are not placed into the uterus correctly, then pregnancy will not occur. That is why "transfer technique" is so important. There have been studies showing that pregnancy rates can vary by Physicians within the same group, and this is all because of transfer technique. Once the disparities between transfer techniques were corrected and unified, the pregnancy rates became consistent. For this reason, you want to seek out a Physician who has a lot of experience with embryos transfers and comparable good pregnancy rates. If you go to a clinic that has multiple doctors, ask for the pregnancy rates of each Physician or your particular Physician. Although I know that newly trained REI Physicians have to get experience, most don't have a lot of embryo transfer experience from their fellowship. So, if I were paying $10,000 or more for an IVF cycle, I would ask for a more experienced doc to do the transfer."

https://womenshealthandfertility.blogspot.co.uk/2009/11/bleeding-after-embryo-transfer.html


----------



## dovkav123

Thanks so much for this article. I didn't realise it is such a crucial step.
Now I know more. 
I'll ask to try out my cervix on the day of ER. Prof. she is RE does my ER, I'll ask her boss that she could do my ET in 2 days.
Valium! I read that It is a great idea to take valium to relax, legs and tighs and of course uterus.

Thanks for support and for being such a good friend!


----------



## dovkav123

I made an appointment with both F clinics for an ultrasound. On THursday(my old clinic already mentioned about no retrieval in the weekend, receptionist didn't want me to come on THursday, I told her my follies may be small and we'll be good to retrieve on Monday) and ON Friday(new clinic I didn't tell about IVF just an ultrasound, I can cancel them anytime) 
I just don't want to miss out this month... I want to keep going.... and never give up!

How are you feeling today? 
You must be at work now, please take an easy.


----------



## Briss

dovkav, it's great if you can start with both clinics, when do they ask you to pay? at my clinic you pay on your first scan and in full and if no eggs collected you lose everything. pretty tough.

I am cramping non stop. makes me really depressed.

I called a sickie and decided to stay at home until lunch time. i'd stay the whole day at home but i have a meeting in the afternoon which I already postponed so cant do again. still i think if I just do half day today that might be beneficial. 

I am not sure about valium, does it have side effects? it might be an idea as my legs were shaking a lot at ET, i hope it did spoil anything. 

i am also so happy i found you! not many people go through natural IVF it's great that we stick together


----------



## dovkav123

we pay cash, any dr. we visit in Germany the bill comes in the mail in couple of weeks

in US natural IVF is common. I found one clinic gives you 3 tries you pay right away for $7000
other clinic refund some $, or you can use them for the next try.

Other clinic in Los Angeles does a natural IVF study trial, research, they state that only some meds will be cheaper(probably progesterone or HCG trigger) The whole amount they want is 7000$. For such a low % of success!!

Stick little bean, stick, I hope cramping is a good sign.


----------



## Briss

3 tries for $7000 seems really cheap compared to UK prices. 

How's it going? when are you going for your scan?

afm, cramping still there but I think it's not as strong as yesterday, I am so hoping it's a good sign. I tested out the trigger and now just getting bfns


----------



## dovkav123

16 mm follicle today(dr. told me I may need to take voltaren pills to stop premature O), but the blood tests change the whole plan
ER on Monday
I requested RE to do an ET on Wednesday.
Tomorrow we'll talk with RE on phone about doing IVF not ICSI, I want to know if we capable to do it. naturally. Worth of risk.

What an adranalin rush!I am so excited! We are playing Russian rulet. We are choosing the hardest way, but I think we'll succeed soon.
I need to cancel another clinic today.

We went to church today and lit up a candle for the last month emby. We think he is an angel now and we'll see him in heaven.

I also prayed for you, and your miracle...
I aslo prayed for all the girls who has problems, that their suffer would end soon. God loves us, he wishes us the best. I's only The matter of time...


----------



## Briss

dovkav, I think it all depends on your DH's SA sample on the day, if morphology is good than IVF should be possible but if it's below 4% I would not risk it and would just go with ICSI. Your follicle is growing really fast - 16 mm follicle on CD 6!! what are you feeling it? 

Thank you very much for your prayer, so unbelievably kind of you! you know 3 is a lucky number so I am sure this cycle is going to be a success at last. 

It's very exciting time for you! keep me posted.


----------



## dovkav123

I am on CD8 today, 16mm follicle, Left side again. Uterine lining is 8mm. Sorry, I didn't update my FF. 
I am so glad I came today for ultrasound. My receptionist told me that CD8 is too late we don't do ER in the weekend. I told her maybe my follicle is small this month and we'll make it till Monday. And was right!

My hubby says don't do anything that heps him grow.

Last month on this day I had 18mm and it was Friday. So we are 1 day behind. Today dr. told me(I met 4th gynecologist in 3 months) they don't do retreivals in the weekend, because IVF lab is closed. Another dr. told me different reason, no one is here to help me during emergency during ER. Which is teling the truth?
Today she wanted to test again my thryroid TSH, I showed her my tests from May. I asked for some blood tests. It was nice of her to prescribe blood tests for my kidney, liver, cholesterol and CBC(all blood counts, hemoglobulin, white blood cells)
Last year my white blood cells were quit low and my dr. sent me to hemotologist. He said it is common, girls like my age to have WBC low. WE demanded for some tests, everything came back normal.
Also she wants to test for chicken pox. I told her I have all my immunization records, I'll give her later. This is our 3rd IVF and now she is asking for our passports and marriage certificate. I can't beleave she needs them now. I guess she is following the protocol. Goverment or insurance will not help with IVF if the couple is not married. WE PAY PRIVATE. IT DOESN'T MATTER.

Do you know anybody else who is doing mini or natural IVF on this or different website?
I found only one woman's testimonial, story on youtube about natural IVF. She sounded that IVF is so easyyyyyyy. They did ICSI because of male factor and they were lucky from the first try. She inspired me so much.
I hope 3 charm is a lucky one.
Those 2 were experimental one, this one a real deal!
I'll talk to RE CHIEF tomorrow on phone and we'll ask why he did ICSI last month. We'll decide than.

How do you feel testing so early?
HCG trigger is out of your system early.


----------



## Briss

dovkav, timing looks good, I am so hoping your follicle will be ready for Monday's EC.

I think emergency is a good point, anything can happen EC has some risks so they are thinking of your safety.

it's good to do thyroid TSH but I also heard that it's important to test antibodies as well

I cant believe you need to be married to get funding for IVF!! this is ridiculous! 

why is she asking about chicken pox? i had chicken pox a few years ago as an adult, not a nice thing to have :( they asked me for rubella immunisation which I think I had as a child. 

I do not know anyone on B&B who is doing natural IVF but there is a discussion board for my clinic which mainly does natural - https://www.fertilityfriends.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=240802.1050;topicseen although it's been quiet lately.

I recall there was another discussion not that long ago actually - https://babyandbump.momtastic.com/trying-conceive-over-35/1856095-natural-cycle-ivf.html 

my HCG trigger was out quickly because I had LH surge before the trigger so in the end needed only one shot. 

I started testing early in order to manage my expectations and prepare myself for whatever comes step by step. if I just do tww and then test and get a bfn that would be too much. we wont do another cycle straight away as I need to get my hormones back to normal. progesterone is really having a noticeable effect on me. I will take a holiday and visit my mum, get more strength and then do it again. 

Did you have bloating? I am so bloated, it's awful.


----------



## dovkav123

SYMPTOMS CHECKER: temps went up after transfer, progesterone didn't give me any bloating. I am glad you have one, it is a huge hope. Last month I took 400mg progest. didn't have any symptoms. This time I took 600mg, the symptoms were very mild.
1.CD14 transfer day-pain on the right ovary, cramping, headache.
2. CD15 less cramping, headache, ovary pain, needle feeling on the uterus for a few seconds.
3. CD16 urine cramp, uterine contractions
4. CD17
5 CD18 stressed out
6 CD19 breast tingle, nausea after breakfast
7. CD20 stressed out, tired all day, nausea breakfast and pm
8.CD21 uterine contraction, breast tingle
9. CD22 stuffy nose, uterine contractions, dizzy pm(had to lay down), bad sleep,BFN
10. CD23 stuffy nose, migraine, feels I'll get sick
11. CD24 tired, stuffy nose, 
12. CD25 blood test negative, cried, depressed
13. CD26
14. CD27

Thank you for the references about natural IVF.
When is your blood test due?
I know, Briss, you want to be prepared for anything what will happen. Have control of the situation. Home preg. test could be false negative. The blood test is the one to beleave. But still my clinic tests 14 days after retrieval, others 17-18. So I didn't rush to get off he progesterone(I got off it slowly), I waited for 3 more days and did another preg. home test. I did a test a day before my AF. That suppose to be the most accurate.

hey Briss, stay positive! I know it's such a feeling of wonder when you realize that you finally have your fertilized egg living thing inside you. Wishing you lots of healthy growth and that your little miracle makes itself comfortable in there. I'm sure it feels your love. Happy 2ww! It's so hard to be patient when you've been patient so long but I am hoping and praying for strong little embies for us both.


----------



## Briss

thank you for setting out your symptoms, that's so helpful!!

My main symptoms:

tender breasts: started on day one of taking progesterone
bloated: started after ET
AF type cramping: started 2 days after ET
brown spotting (a tiny amount): 2 days after ET

My official blood test is on Wednesday and it will be 14 DPO. AF usually comes on 15 DPO. the clinic is supposed to tell me what to do after I get my results on Wednesday. I am sure by Wednesday (or even earlier) I'd already know&#8230; 

dovkav, thank you so much for your wishes!! I also wish with all my heart that you finally get your BFP this cycle and H&H 9 months to follow

Keep me posted on your progress.


----------



## dovkav123

CD8 My blood tests were good yesterday.
LH 4.7 U/I
Estrogen 135.8 pg/ml
Uterine lining 8mm

HCG shot is on Saturday 9:15pm, Monday retrieval 8:15am

We talked on phone with our RE
1. They did ICSI because of low motility. Fertilisaton rates are higher now because of ICSI and they've been doing it for 20 years. ICSI can hurt an embryo, but you can see it 2 hours after procedure it becomes dark, cloudy.
So RE will decide on Monday depending on the sperm count. It varies through the month. MY dh had normal SA 3 months ago. is it a fluke, or more stress causing low motility? Probably nothing geneticaly wrong. I am more comfortable with ICSI after a conversation today. My friend had 10 eggs retrieved anf non of them fertilise with IVF(SA were normal), they did ICSI next time and bingo!! They were lucky.
2. RE can not speculate why we didn't succeed this time. He agrees about doing a mock transfer after ER. The same RE will try to do ET on Wednesday.
3. No difference 2 day or 3 day transfer. We can do 2 day this time.
4. Valium during ET. He says yes if I want if it helps me, it won't interfere with implantation. Maybe I should use natural form valerian root? It helps me with a stage fright....
5. He still says that natural IVF is a lower chance with one embryo than traditional.(if we put two embryos, i agree) Yes I agree finding egg, fertilising and growing in lab taking chances with singleton. WE, Briss did it !!!! But when my embryo is in my uterus, I beleave I have a higher chance of implantation because of normal hormonal levels and general natural body balance.

Tomorrow you could see already a faint line on 10dpo.
Praying for you


----------



## dovkav123

I tested my O yesterday 2 times and LH hasn't spyked. It 's very good. I did HCG Ovitrel trigger yesterday and this morning I tested my pregnancy. 2 beautiful lines. First time in my life! Worth a photo.
Everything as scheduled so far.
Tomorrow is an egg colection.
Have a beautiful Sunday!
Prayed for your miracle.


----------



## Briss

Wonderful news!! excellent it all goes according to plan, best of luck with EC tomorrow!! grow eggie grow!!


afm, have spotting since last night :( cramping is back, tested still negative... losing hope


----------



## dovkav123

Oh no, stay hopeful! Don't give up! I had no spotting before my Af. You still have hope.
I am meeting a very religiuos person today, i'll tell her to pray for you and me for our July 2014 babies


----------



## Briss

Thank you!!
cramping is not getting any better, I do not think it's a good sign. I do not usually cramp or have spotting in TWW I guess synthetic progesterone does not work that well for me.


----------



## dovkav123

You have your own progesterone produced too, I think.
Please ask on Wednesday to check your estrogen and progesterone levels too.
This evening I really think I O'ed because I had wet egwcm with blood. I realy think my egg is gone. I didn't have blood for 2 months in a row because of ER. On My regular cycle I always have my O with a bit of blood and cramping. No cramping this time.
We'll do IUI tomorrow, if an egg is gone and hope and pray we'll catch him.

Cramping could be still a good thing. This is new for you, anything unusual and new is good.
Don't loose hope. The brain can be tricky. Your brain will think and your body will obey! Stay positive.!


----------



## Briss

dovkav, you are so inspirational, thank you! "anything unusual and new is good" - that shall be my moto!!! will try and see spotting and cramping as a positive sign :)

praying you have not ovulated yet!! I so hope you will catch that eggie tomorrow. good luck!


----------



## dovkav123

Thanks, Briss.
You're the best!
I am so emotionally prepared for everything happens this morning.
This 3rd time supposse to be a charm and I'll just flow with it. I won't push it.
This is at least scariest time ever. I hope that's the last one!!!!


----------



## dovkav123

eggy is found!
I am so happy!


----------



## Briss

dovkav, fantastic news!!! well done. fingers crossed for fertilisation!! 

afm, 12 dpo this morning and tested negative, still spotting (a hint of light brown when I wipe) and cramping. I am trying to see it as positive but quite hard every time I see it it just strikes me as wrong. it's been 3 days


----------



## Electricat

dovkav123 said:


> eggy is found!
> I am so happy!

Oh goodie :happydance:

I'm stalking, think I will try and go this route v soon.

FX for all of us =)

:flower:


----------



## dovkav123

Electricat said:


> dovkav123 said:
> 
> 
> eggy is found!
> I am so happy!
> 
> Oh goodie :happydance:
> 
> I'm stalking, think I will try and go this route v soon.
> 
> FX for all of us =)
> 
> :flower:Click to expand...

Thanks for stopping and saying hello!
It is a long route, but I think soon we'll see the light in the end of this tunnel.
I saw a study, they concluded average natural IVF cycle success is trying 4 times.
If you have an questions, I'll be happy to answer.


----------



## dovkav123

Briss said:


> dovkav, fantastic news!!! well done. fingers crossed for fertilisation!!
> 
> afm, 12 dpo this morning and tested negative, still spotting (a hint of light brown when I wipe) and cramping. I am trying to see it as positive but quite hard every time I see it it just strikes me as wrong. it's been 3 days

Hey Briss,
i am hoping and praying that spotting and cramping is a good news.
I checked your FF chart you never had spotting before AF, this is not PMS!!!
I checked some charts on FF, girls on IVF got positives late as 16dpo
Keep your hopes up!


----------



## Briss

dovkav, that's right I never spot before AF but I think it's down to progesterone, maybe I am taking too much - 3x400 mg? 

I do not know if you noticed but in stimulated IVF cycles they do the test on 16 DPO while in natural IVF cycle on 14 DPO. I wonder why? maybe naturally we do not usually have 16 day LH. mine is 13/14 days. 

I have two more days and they I guess they will stop my progesterone?


----------



## dovkav123

I don't know. I looked online about too much progesterone, I can't find anything bad. Too little progesterone is a problem. Some girls(after regular IVF) take estrogen too, together with progesterone. I beleave they have access of estrogen anyways. Why do they need more?

When I had IUI they told me to take 400mg and last month I took 600mg for IVF. My progesterone levels were very high, second trimester levels.
I'll ask this week, if I should stay on 400mg.

The retrieval was a little painful this time. Last month I had pain during needle removal only. Today I had pain all 6 seconds and lasted forever to me. I don't like when dr. tells "now we'll begin" I get stressed out because of those words. I felt my ovary moved and it did hurt. Dr. told me that a follicle was on the other side of the ovary, so she had to go accross(poke it through) it to reach a follicle. She said we can't tell an ovary where to grow a follicle:). You suppose to laugh, but it's not funny:( No blood was lost. That's a good. We stayed in the hospital for an hour. I felt some local ovarian pain so I wanted to wait, I didn't want to pass out again. I had 3 cups of water and in an hour I was feeling great, we went home.

we did a mock transfer today. RE couldn't beleave I had a problem with transfer last month, my cervix was soft and open, she put catheter in with no problem. Wait till Wednesday I think. 2 days post O things may change. She adviced me to take Buscopan, it suppose to help to avoid spasms and cramping. Maybe it is emby friendly pill and helps him settle in more peacefull uterus? I may take 2 tablets.
I saw other girls also take Buscopan and even sedative with ET.

It is sad but I know nobody else who does natural IVF cycle. I want to make a youtube video. I hope I'll do 3 of them soon.


----------



## Electricat

dovkav123 said:


> Electricat said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dovkav123 said:
> 
> 
> eggy is found!
> I am so happy!
> 
> Oh goodie :happydance:
> 
> I'm stalking, think I will try and go this route v soon.
> 
> FX for all of us =)
> 
> :flower:Click to expand...
> 
> Thanks for stopping and saying hello!
> It is a long route, but I think soon we'll see the light in the end of this tunnel.
> I saw a study, they concluded average natural IVF cycle success is trying 4 times.
> If you have an questions, I'll be happy to answer.Click to expand...

Thank you =)

I was actually wondering how I get started.
I E-mailed them and they called me to have me in for an initial meeting or something (can't remember), not the One Stop fertility MOT that was mentioned in the E-mail.
Are they trying to suck me dry from the get go? Why would I have to have a "discussion" about my situation when it says that the MOT comes with a consult...?

How long do you think it will take from whatever initial meet I have until some action - do they start right away if it fits with your cycle?

Ty for answers =)


----------



## dovkav123

Electricat said:


> dovkav123 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Electricat said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dovkav123 said:
> 
> 
> eggy is found!
> I am so happy!
> 
> Oh goodie :happydance:
> 
> I'm stalking, think I will try and go this route v soon.
> 
> FX for all of us =)
> 
> :flower:Click to expand...
> 
> Thanks for stopping and saying hello!
> It is a long route, but I think soon we'll see the light in the end of this tunnel.
> I saw a study, they concluded average natural IVF cycle success is trying 4 times.
> If you have an questions, I'll be happy to answer.Click to expand...
> 
> Thank you =)
> 
> I was actually wondering how I get started.
> I E-mailed them and they called me to have me in for an initial meeting or something (can't remember), not the One Stop fertility MOT that was mentioned in the E-mail.
> Are they trying to suck me dry from the get go? Why would I have to have a "discussion" about my situation when it says that the MOT comes with a consult...?
> 
> How long do you think it will take from whatever initial meet I have until some action - do they start right away if it fits with your cycle?
> 
> Ty for answers =)Click to expand...

I am sorry, what MOT means?
When I visited my RE for the first time I had to wait for 3 weeks to get a first appointment. They did all hormonal panel, make sure everything is normal. SA analysis. Than I called the clinic on CD1 and made an appointment on CD11 (1st IVF), CD8 (2-3rd IVF). It was always my first and the last ultrasound before an egg retrieval.I was just lucky. Blood test was done and scheduled HCG shot. Sounds simple and easy. However, every person is different.
I am very happy for you that you decided to do natural IVF. Is it going to be your first IVF?


----------



## Briss

They were not checking my progesterone levels, no idea whether it's low or high or normal.

Do you know why they take estrogen after ET? I thought estrogen was released before O only?

I do not think they poked your ovary through? they must have gone around it somehow. it's damaging? are you awake at EC? I was totally out so no idea what they did but it did not hurt afterwards and there was no bleeding or anything so i assumed it was fine.


----------



## dovkav123

Clinic did my blood test 14 days after retrieval. They checked estrogen and progesterone and HCG. Make sure they'll do it for you too.

CD8, 18mm follicle ,here are my blood tests 70 hours before ER, 
LH 3.7u/I
progesterone .5ng/ml
estrogen 153.7 pg/ml

here are my tests after 14 days, 2ww
progesterone 140.1 ng/ml
estrogen 70.1 pg/ml

In the begining of th cycle till O estrogen increases and peaks and progesterone is low. 
After O progesterone peaks and estrogen goes down.


Yes, I was awake during ER. It was my choice. I want to participate and have things in my control.
Clinic called today and we have an embryo, transfer is tomorrow at 10am.
Dr. told me to take 600mg progesterone today. My temps went up this morning, my natural progesterone kicked in.
I'll find out tomorrow, if it was IVF or ICSI. I trust dr. and their statistics. If ICSI was needed, I am OK with that.
Tomorrow is ET.
THis time I am prepared for success. I blame ET for failed last motnh's IVF.
1. I requested RE, not gynecologist(like last month) for ET.
2. WE'll transfer embryo day 2nd, not day 3rd
3. After ER, my RE did a mock transfer and she put catheter smoothly with no problems. She is doing ET tomorrow.
4. I am taking Buscopan before ET, it should help reduce muscle spasms and cramps. 
5. If RE has some difficulties doing ET, I'll just walk out and I'll come later or next day. Cervix needs to recover...


----------



## Briss

dovkav, thank you! that's a good idea cos I thought they were only checking HCG but it would be very important to know all of it really: estrogen and progesterone and HCG.

Congratulations on the embryo!!! wonderful news!! you sound well prepared for ET. I will be praying it goes smoothly tomorrow.

It's so brave of you to be awake during ER! I was terrified. even for ET my knees were shaking and the nurse was holding them still. 

afm, 13 DPO, my temp is up, no cramping and no spotting this morning I was getting my hopes up but&#8230; bfn. I guess it's quite clear now but I will continue hoping for a miracle up until I get my blood test results tomorrow.


----------



## dovkav123

ER told me not to come with a ful bladder?!!

Praying for you on Wednesday too. Your pregg tests may not be sensitive 25 or more are the best.


----------



## Briss

I am using these ones - https://www.amazon.co.uk/One-Step-1...qid=1381834275&sr=8-2&keywords=pregnancy+test it says ultra early&#8230; but it's 10miu. Are they more sensitive then 25 miu? If I understand correctly the lower the mlu ie:10 the earlier it's supposed to pick the pregnancy up?

Did a bit of googling: "Apparently, if a woman is pregnant, the amount of hCG in her system should be around 25 mIU at 10 dpo (days past ovulation), 50 mIU at 12 dpo, 100 mIU at around two weeks dpo. Non-pregnant women have HCG levels of 5.

First response early tests (up to 6 days before AF) 12.5 mIU
Boots own pregnancy tests 25 mIU
Clearblue 25 mIU

I hate having full bladder, at my clinic they do ET only with full bladder, it's so terribly uncomfortable and I had to pee (a lot of it!!) 5 min after ET. they said it was Ok


----------



## Briss

bad news for me, my beta came back as 8.3, too low to call it positive. They were very direct and told me that unfortunately they see it as negative. I am to repeat the test on Friday and they expect I get a completely negative result. They did not want to give me false hope and said with these low levels this is just not good news. the only positive fact is that there was an attempt at implantation but unfortunately not successful.


----------



## dovkav123

Briss said:


> bad news for me, my beta came back as 8.3, too low to call it positive. They were very direct and told me that unfortunately they see it as negative. I am to repeat the test on Friday and they expect I get a completely negative result. They did not want to give me false hope and said with these low levels this is just not good news. the only positive fact is that there was an attempt at implantation but unfortunately not successful.


iT SUCKS , BRISS.
KEEP TESTING AT HOME AND AGAIN BLOOD TEST 2 MORE TIMES.
i GOT MY RESULTS <1. MY HUBBY DIDN'T BELEAVE IT, WE WAITED TILL 1 DAY BEFORE MY PERIOD i REDUCED MY PROGESTERORONE ONLY 1 A DAY, i GOT NEGATIVE AND QUIT THIS HORMONE AND MY af ARRIVED, ONLY THAN WE BELEAVED..IT'S OVER


----------



## dovkav123

Briss said:


> bad news for me, my beta came back as 8.3, too low to call it positive. They were very direct and told me that unfortunately they see it as negative. I am to repeat the test on Friday and they expect I get a completely negative result. They did not want to give me false hope and said with these low levels this is just not good news. the only positive fact is that there was an attempt at implantation but unfortunately not successful.


sORRY FOR LATE RESPONSE, I WAS IN BED NAPPING HALF OF THE DAY. TRANSFER WENT FINE FROM THE FIRST TRY. pROFESSOR Re WAS SICK, SO THE SAME DR. DID IT LIKE LAST MONTH. iT WAS DEPRESSING, BUT i HOPE IT'LL WORK. wE DID ivf THIS TIME NOT icsi. we transfered 4Acell emby.
iT SUCKS , BRISS.
KEEP TESTING AT HOME AND AGAIN BLOOD TEST 2 MORE TIMES. Lab mistake, who know maye it'll double...
i GOT MY RESULTS <1. MY HUBBY DIDN'T BELEAVE IT, WE WAITED TILL 1 DAY BEFORE MY PERIOD i REDUCED MY PROGESTERONE ONLY 1 A DAY, i GOT NEGATIVE AND QUIT THIS HORMONE AND MY af ARRIVED, ONLY THAN WE BELEAVED..IT'S OVER


----------



## Briss

dovkav, it's great that the transfer went well. you are now officially PUPO!! 

I also asked for bloods as you advised (although they were surprised about estradinol, said not sure why I wanted to have this and I did not know what to say)

Progesterone: 86.9
Estrogen: 4.49 

I stopped testing, there is no point. Hopefully I will get a completely negative on friday cos I think if it starts increasing it maybe something worse than chemical... the doc did not exactly say that but when i asked if there is a hope she kind of hinted that it's not in my interests at this point of the game. I know so little about this stuff, this is the first time I got any beta reading. I am still on progesterone until Friday's test but I also reduced it to 2 a day. 

Feeling pretty depressed. after Friday's test I can schedule the review appointment to discuss what's next for us and why this one did not work.


----------



## dovkav123

Thinking of you, sending you hugs and kisses.
I feel heartbroken too for your unlucky cycle.
This is a begining of your journey. Don't give up, don't you ever give up!


----------



## Briss

Just got a confirmation my beta dropped to 1.7, anything below 5 is officially negative so I got my closure and can stop progesterone now


----------



## dovkav123

I am so sorry. Sending you tons of love and hugs:hugs:


----------



## Briss

thank you. we scheduled our review appointment in November to discuss what could have gone wrong and what our next step. if my next cycle is back to normal then we can try again in a cycle.


----------



## dovkav123

4day 2day transfer,I have nothing to report. No symptoms, even progesterone doesn't give me any tingle...

Briss,:hugs: Thinking of you:flower:


----------



## Briss

how much progesterone are you on? 

hoping and preying this is your last IVF and you will get a BFP really soon. if you are going to test I'd recommend FRER, they gave me a line at 9 beta!

my Af is here. I am going to do CD3 bloods to see what's going on with my hormones.


----------



## dovkav123

I was wrong before. I looked at my box and noticed that i am taking 3 pills. 100mg each. My prog. was higher (140 )than yours, maybe because I take orally?

You are doing CD3 blood tests, great! Will you be able to talk to a dr. what went wrong?
My dr. doesn't want to speculate what went wrong, he keep saying that with fertility drugs I have more chances. He just want to sell his deal!
He is a professor, a scientist, he has no need to test me further??!!

Two natural IVF=one medicated(he wants to put 2 embys on medicated)

Even if we put 3 embies and they won't take.
it''s about my uterus, something with implantation....

If I fail this one, I need to run serious testing my autoimmunity, thrombofilia and others. Maybe my blood is fighting with dh's blood?

Briss,how are you feeling. Your AF came next day after quiting prog? Is the flow heavier?
you know more now. At least you know that your emby grew bigger in your incubator and was implanted or tried to. Maybe hatching was a problem? Can you talk to your dr about it?


----------



## Briss

we will be able to ask all questions at our review appointment in november. From my reading it seems like the main reason for a chemical is chromosomal issues with the embryo, I guess either the egg or the sperm quality was not good and it was never going to develop further. At my age not every egg will be of good quality but I think sperm is more likely to be the problem as DH was drinking lots of beer everyday :( Still, you are right there are some positives like the fact that my body was trying to do what it's supposed to i.e. help the embryo to grow and attach. It is also possible that implantation was an issue but I doubt it as they said my lining was very good. I also had hysteroscopy in 2012 and they did biopcy of the lining and did not find anything wrong with it. why do you think you might have something wrong with implantation?

Wow, your progesterone must be naturally very good! so I guess that's why they do not give you that much additionally. makes sense. I read that it's the oppostive if you take it vaginaly or rectaly it goes towards the lining but if you take it oraly it gets absorbed everywhere in your body, i.e. not targetting the lining. 

I will do the bloods privately myself not at the clinic. as far as I am concerned they are done, I am only entited to the review appointment. 

My AF came the next day after I stopped progesterone and is heavy today but it's normal for CD2. have not seen any clots. I was expecting large clots cos effectively this AF is more like mc.


----------



## dovkav123

How are you today?
Did you do your tests?
Today is 7dpo, 4days after transfer. BIG day! My temp went down. I had a nose bleed today and feel congested(sinus headaches) since yesterday.

it make sense, if I take progesterone orally, it circulates all over the body, so more in the blood stream, higher the test results.

It is possible to do an embryo biopsy and find out the problem. But if we're working with one embryo than it doesn't matter. WE just take a chance.

How about your DH family? Do they have lots of kids? low sperm count could be genetical problems

My dh family, he has a tree from 1400, men got married late and had only one child. So I can't tell much about genetics, mostly one child was due by aging sperm.


----------



## Briss

dovkav, I did CD 3 bloods and repeated AMH today, results will be ready tomorrow. I booked my scan for wednesday. I also want to do breasts scan as progesterone gave me lots of side effects. 

I read that embryo biopsy is not safe and they are working on some other methods at the moment. I agree we just have to take a chance. 

My DH's the only child and a late child as well so you might be right. 

wow! that's so exciting to have a family tree from 1400!!

when are you testing? I would not worry about the temp drop.


----------



## dovkav123

Briss said:


> dovkav, I did CD 3 bloods and repeated AMH today, results will be ready tomorrow. I booked my scan for wednesday. I also want to do breasts scan as progesterone gave me lots of side effects.
> 
> I read that embryo biopsy is not safe and they are working on some other methods at the moment. I agree we just have to take a chance.
> 
> My DH's the only child and a late child as well so you might be right.
> 
> wow! that's so exciting to have a family tree from 1400!!
> 
> when are you testing? I would not worry about the temp drop.

I'll test on Sat or on Sunday.
can progesterone cause problems? I thought being preggo and high progesterone protects from women cancer.


----------



## Briss

I got lumps in my breasts while on progestrone. I hope they will go away and just side effects. it's best to check breats before CD 10 cos progestrone can create all sorts of things but they go away once AF starts.


----------



## Briss

I got my CD3 bloods and all seems to be in order, progestrone is low at 0.9, estrogen is about 175 which seems to be OK, not too high so hopefully no cysts. FSH is depressingly high at 16.3 but that was to be expected. I had only mild stimulation, about 150 IU of menopur for 5 days and it looks like it did not affect my hormones. Still need to do a scan tomorrow to check what's going on.


----------



## DBZ34

Hi dovkav! I've come to stalk your natural IVF journey!! When are you testing or getting your betas done again? Is it this weekend?


----------



## dovkav123

Briss said:


> I got my CD3 bloods and all seems to be in order, progestrone is low at 0.9, estrogen is about 175 which seems to be OK, not too high so hopefully no cysts. FSH is depressingly high at 16.3 but that was to be expected. I had only mild stimulation, about 150 IU of menopur for 5 days and it looks like it did not affect my hormones. Still need to do a scan tomorrow to check what's going on.

Thanks for your update. Let me know about your scan tomorrow. 
Sorry about your lumps on the breast. Did you show them to your DR? Does he recommend a scan? Please make sure you really need it. Because, You get some radiation with it. 
9dpo today, yesterday I had some cramping and a very stressful day. I hope stress didn't cause cramping. My dh asked me if we could test yesterday. He was curious, if we'preggo. Maybe today we could see something. But I don't have a test at home, so we'll wait.
Today I felt some cramping around my cervix. I had that with my BFN cycle. Sounds like a bad news.


----------



## dovkav123

Hi Ella! Welcome! Thank you so much for stopping by!
I am doing Betas on 29th of October, I am sure, that I want to test before.
We are planning a day trip to Liehtenstein and Switzeland on Friday. Ideally We'd like to test after the trip on Saturday. I don't want BFN to spoil our beautiful mauntain ride!
How about you? Will you test this weekend, or you'll die to test earlier?


----------



## DBZ34

Sounds like a good testing plan. :) 

Oh, what a great trip! I hope you have a great time with your DH in the mountains! :D

As for me, I'm holding out on testing until Saturday. I'm supposed to stop taking the progesterone Friday, but we've got a party on Saturday and I don't want AF to spoil it. So, I'm taking an extra dose in the morning and if the test is negative, I won't do my night time dose. 

Hopefully both of us see a BFP on Saturday! It may be our lucky day, dov. :)


----------



## Briss

dovkav, I am so hoping cramping is good news for you. It can go either way so we just have to hope for the best for you!

DBZ, did you also do a natural IVF? Goof luck with testing! 

afm, my breast scan was OK, it showed some small cysts that it's not too bad, nothing dramatic so I am pleased. My other scan was not as great, it showed a small cyst on my cervix &#8211; what's it about? Is it a side effect of ET? plus cysts on both ovaries. my AMH came even lower than before it dropped from 1.38 to 0.92 in 8 months &#8211; I am officially in the menopause zone!


----------



## dovkav123

OH no, Briss. 
I don't think ET caused your cysts. It could be firtility meds.
Please try a natural IVF next time. 
I am so sorry about your AMH. This is crazy. I am very sad about it.
Your antral follicle count is not low and you're not 40. You still could be in a good shape for a natural IVF. 
when did your mom got menopouse? 

I wanted to convince my hubby to do mini IVF, but I read so many bad stories about fertility drugs, that I really really want to stay away from them. I will do 10 times natural IVF, till I get preggo.


----------



## DBZ34

Hi Briss! Thanks for the luck! I'm not a natural IVF'er but I am terribly curious about it all. Plus dov is awesome, so I have to stalk her. :) I'm actually going to start the IUI process in a couple of months if just BDing with preseed and progesterone doesn't work out. 

I'm so sorry that your AMH dropped so quickly, but you're still in the low end of the normal range, right? Not quite menopausal yet. Are you going to go ahead and give medicated IVF another try or are you going to go to natural IVF?


----------



## dovkav123

12dpo today and BFN
5-6 days till my AF. Hoping it was too early.
I am taking it less stressful than my hubby. He wants to quit IVF. He can't handle this any more....
On the other hand He thinks that this test was the cheapest in the store, and the worst one. 
Motto of the day: LoL and blame the test.I
It does pick up 25 sensitivity. But it states the best results on the day of missed period.

Ella, any news?
Briss, what is your next step this month?


----------



## Briss

dovkav, when I tested with my chemical only FRER had a proper line, most other brands gave me a clean bfn so I am not surprised. try FRER in a couple of days it's most likely just too early. I can understand your DH it's really hard. My DH is not taking our failed IVF well either. 

DBZ, good luck with your IUI! but I hope you wont need it :) I had a natural/modified IVF which is very low doses of stims and for a short period of time just to get 1-3 eggs. I had two follicles but they only collected from one because the other one was too close to a cyst. I am thinking we would have got the same result without any stims so we might go completely natural next time. it's also possible that they will persuade us to do a medicated cycle to get more eggs. I do not know yet what we are going to do next. all depends on what they say at our review appointment. 

afm, I am waiting for my review appointment with the clinic to discuss why our IVF failed and what are our options. I also want to see a doc to check my new cyst on cervix. I'm concerned about it. tbh, I cant wait to do our second IVF, TTC naturally is so hopeless with low sperm count. My DH has doubts about natural IVF as we pay a lot of money and the success rate is low. I think he is wrong because chemical shows we can get pregnant just need to wait for the good egg/sperm. I am reluctant to go for more stims, particularly as I have a cyst on my right ovary and EC might be tricky and risky or not happen at all.


----------



## dovkav123

I havn't tested this morning. Tomorrow we are planning a trip, so we'll do the bloods on Tuesday.
I am really interested in doing genetic Thrombofilia testing. We have childless relatives (my grandfathers 2 siblings), my sister. My greatgrand father died 50y/o from heart disease, he didn't smoke or drank.
You treat it with a low molecular weight heparin.
Briss, I understand you administered blood thinners to rule out this conditon last cycle.

Have you ever done IUI?

I hope you'll make decision soon about IVF. I understand about the price difference and success rate. However; investing in health I think is the most important.

I pray and hope that your cysts will be gone in the next U/S.

Storm is coming to your town. Please stay safe at home.
Hugs:hugs:


----------



## dovkav123

Hello.
The blood tests were BFN. No signs of implantation. Nothing. I felt empty this morning, I came to the clinic with eyes full of tears. 
My hubby made me cry. 
He told me maybe it is not the right time.
He told me maybe we not meant to have children. Maybe our purpose of life is a different one.
Childless couples we know 3 of them, they are older than us and they are happy.

My life without a child, I see no purpose. It is unconditional love and I need that maddly!!! It is a different love than your relatives or my hubby.
We do live in stressful household and I do agree that stress can cause our infertility. 
I think infertility is a disease and we have pills for that!
Animals don't suffer infertility only we humans. Except My dog, she never had puppies because she didn't let any of the dogs close to her.
I think we all gonna have children in one time of our lives, it is just the matter of when. When the right moment comes.

1.I. am seeing my RE on the 8th of November. 
2. am doing my thrombofilia genetic testing this week. It cost around 200euro.
3.Also I want to test my hubbies sperm(genetic way), maybe we'll pick the healthiest one and do ICSI.
4.Adding hormones to my IVF doesn't make sense. If my uterus doesn't take one, it won't take 2or 3 embryos. 
5.Also I want to talk about assisting hatching. In the lab dr. grows embryos for 5 days and than dr. make a whole in it. That suppose to help embryo leave the shell. Maybe this is our problem too.

Now I just want to realx and have :wine: and gourmet sex!


----------



## Briss

dovkav, I am so sorry!! it's so unfair. Something is not working, you should definitely change clinic. I know so many examples where ladies going through several IVFs and nothing and then change their clinic only to get BFP after a first attempt. 

I understand your hubby it's just a defense mechanism he is struggling to accept so much failure. I do not think you should give up. there are ladies who went through as much as 8 IVFs before they had their baby. I know you are against stims but it's also an option to consider (better than giving up I think). Genetic testing sounds like a right way forward but I would definitely look into your lining. scarring can easily be the issue that prevents implantation. there might also be immune issues, if you immune system is strong it may attack your little embryo. How do you check sperm's genetic? I mean they can test one sperm but it's not representative as there are millions? I would also like to check hubby's sperm for chromosome damage. assisting hatching is definitely something to look into but you would need to grow embryo for at least 5 days, not many survive in the lab that long.

what is thrombofilia genetic testing?

I have been spotting until CD10 after IVF and I am suspecting endometritis - it's a very tricky thing almost undetectable but it makes it impossible for an embryo to attach. I am seeing my GP this week and will ask to be referred to a doc to check for endometritis. I am about to ovulate but my temp is just way too high for pre-O levels and the cycle is just not quite normal. I am only living with the hope we can do another IVF soon. I do not know how many it is going to take...


----------



## dovkav123

I would like to change clinics, but if I took fertility meds than new clinic would change the protocol. Maybe they would take better care of the embryos in the lab, ET also would take more seriuosly? I don't know what's wrong with us, I don't know what to do next.

I have done my hysteroscopy in July everything looked perfect they didn't do any biopsies. That way you could tell more about natural killer cells.

Many RE don't beleave in immunity testing, my RE would give prescription for anything I'll ask. But he is on vacation now. I found a lab that don't ask for prescription for cash payers. I really need to search dr. google for help to pick the right tests.
Many RE don't do any testing till 3 failed IVF.

Genetic tests in general we could test giving a blood sample. I don't think we need that, we beleave our families are healthy. My girlfriend did this testing and they foung nothing...

Testing for sperm DnA damage could make sense. I am not sure how sperm DNA fragmantation is done. On Thursday i'll call to genetic clinic for answers. 

I do have strong immunity. I don't get flu just sniffles.
autoimmunity testing
APA -antiphoapolipid antibodies for women with endo.
ATA-antihyroid antibodies
AOA-antiovarian antibodies
Treatment is steroids shots.

Lots of info is here, if you're interested
https://ttcaftertr.blogspot.de/p/immune-system-infertility-info.html

If embroy won't survive in the lab, could be that he won't survive anywhere else. After 5 days ET and than embryo implants in 24 hours. Strict Bedrest than. Worth of trying everything, doing different things each cycle. 

There are many thrombofilia tests. Blood sample. 
factor v leiden
Protein s
Pratein c
lupus anticogulant
APS antiphospholipid syndrome
MTHFR
prothrombin

I hate injecting heparin If I don't need it. I really want to test it first. Progesterone thickens the blood. So it make sense that high hormone levels could really cause problems.

So much info, don't take it to heart. I just panic too much. I just don't want to sit and do nothing, I want to move forward. 

I just learned that I have another cousin female she is childless too. My 2 grandmothers were single children too. Those times they reproduce... as much as God gave....

I am still taking 200mg progesterone a day. I want to delay my period. First thrombofilia need to be tested.

Briss, i am sorry you have spotting, I hope your dr. wil do something to stop it.
I've bin spotting after my period till O for years and one RE told me it could be hormonal imbalance, I had progesterone on the low side CD25. She diagnosed with corpus luteum deficiency. I have no problems with hormones, I grow beautiful mature eggs. Spotting could be something else. Also I jhave intercouse pain, random, depends on positition. WE use lube, so that's not a problem.
Other RE prescribe antibiotics before ER to avoid intoducing bacteria. Maybe I do have endometritis I have some symptoms of it. I hate taking antibiotics...
Natural way to get rid of bacteria, you can dipp tampon in oregano and chamomile tea and introduce to vagina. I did douche after U/S with salt and chamomile tea, I don't douche after ET.

Now I am confused. Maybe my tubes are open and healthy, maybe just implantation is a problem. My dh always wanted me to flush the tubes....

trying to post a photo, i can't do it:(


----------



## Electricat

Hello, Girls.

I have come to the realization that this won't happen by itself and I need help if we are going to have a chance of a last little love child. 

I have booked a consultation at the Create Health Clinic in London and I'm a little scared.
I never thought I would find myself in this situation. 
(By the way, dovkav123 - I saw you posted that you were thinking about changing clinic, is there something you are very unsatisfied with and would not recommend me going there?)

My GP has taken a few blood tests and my OH has done a SA, I will bring it all and if they need additional tests they will have my GP do them as far as possible (this is something I really can't afford, so I'm trying to save wherever I can).

Any tips and good advice for a Fertility Clinic First Timer? :blush:
Do you feel like you're being heard there more than at you GP - cuz face it, they're just trying to get you out of their office as fast as possible..
Do they appreciate you bringing your FF Charts of 10 cycles or do they just brush you off?
Do you feel like you know if they're draining your finances? I am worried about money, and I really don't want to be treated like a money cow they can milk - but at the same time I would want to know my odds. 
Have you gone with the three-cycle-pack?
Do they stick to the deal or do they spring surprise bills on you...for instance, because you fainted and needed fluids or something like that?

I'm so sad I have to go this route - I was hoping we could do this ourselves :cry:

Good luck to you - and cross your fingers for me, pls =)


----------



## Briss

dovkav, totally look into changing clinics. 3 IVFs is enough, something with this clinic just does not work for you. I do not think it's the protocol, the dominant follicle is supposed to produce the best egg in every given cycle which should have given you a quality embryo at least once in the 3 cycles. 

shame they did not do any biopsies as it could have revealed any implantation issues. I agree with 3 failed IVF you would need to look into immunity testing. you can ask genera forum for advice cos I do not really know what these tests are but I will ask at my follow up app to look into that as well. thanks for the link will definitely look into that. 

I am also considering getting my DH to do DNA fragmentation test - https://www.tdlpathology.com/services-divisions/tdl-andrology/sperm-dna-fragmentation 
and am looking into IMSI as opposed to ICSI to select a healthier sperm next time. 

maybe you could try blood thinning injections together with progesterone next time?

let us know how your thrombofilia testing goes?

re after AF spotting, I am seeing a gyno next week to check this out. I do not have corpus luteum deficiency and last cycle I definitely had lots of progesterone so I doubt my spotting relates to progesterone. I want to rule out inflammation of the lining as this is serious implantation issue and almost non treatable if chronic. in endomentritis the bacteria is not in the vagina but in the uterus so it can only be treated with antibiotics but they do not always work.

i have to say i hate putting anything into my vagina, sounds strange but I cant even use tampons. I love sex though :) deep penetration can be sometimes painful.


----------



## Briss

Electricat, that's great that you are doing your cycle with Create. btw, dovkav is not with Create as she is based in Germany but she is also doing natural cycle IVF. there is a Create discussion board on FF https://www.fertilityfriends.co.uk/forum/index.php?board=558.0

I have done my tests with GP for free and Create wrote a letter to my GP with a list of tests so it saved us a bit of money. btw, re hepatitis tests they would also need core test (not quite sure what that is but it was not on their list and embryology team would not do EC without it so we had to pay for that)

be prepared that you may have to wait for each appointment but the good thing is that once you are there they will take as much time as you need and wont not hurry you out. 

no one was really interested in my FF charts, EC team even said they do not rely on temp. when I showed up for my EC my temp has gone up and I was sure I ovulated, they did a scan and my follicle was still in place so i guess I take their point. they do place a lot of emphasis on AMH and this is what they take into account when they decide on the protocol. 

I did not feel like a money cow but do ask lots of questions and make them explain their advice so you understand what's going on. there was a bit of disconnection between embryology and EC teams and doc who prepare you i.e. do scans and bloods. I had 2 follicles one on each ovary and one of them was very close to my ovarian cyst. the docs said my follicle was perfectly located for EC but the doc doing EC said it was too risky to attempt EC from that follicle cos it was too close to the cyst. it made perfect sense I just wished they managed my expectations so I do not have false hopes for two eggs being collected. 

we decided that we will try 3 IVFs (hopefully it will take two) but we did not go for the three-cycle-pack, it just did not make sense financially. 

I do not think there were any additional payments except for hepatitis test and the second beta test but all together it is still was between 4,000 and 5,000 pounds. you pay for IVF/ICSI and a few other things up front and then you pay for meds and bloods as you go alone.

I understand what you mean about being sad that you have to go this route. I was as well but as soon as I got my little embryo inside I was the happiest girl in the world and I could not care less how it got there as long as it was there trying to make a home for itself for the next 9 months. It did not work out for us the first time but i still remember the feeling and I cant wait to go again


----------



## Electricat

Thank you Briss.

I will hold on to this thread and see how you are doing, and I can post about my experiences there too if you like.

GL to all of us =)


----------



## Briss

Electricat, please definitely share your experience. I'd very much be interested to know how's your cycle going. Hopefully i can also start my cycle in a couple of weeks and will post my updates here as well.


----------



## dovkav123

Electrical,
I did bring my charts and RE looked at them and told me this is good this isn't. So some RE do take them serious, take them along!

Money draining. we arre paying cash and I don't get suprise bills. This clinic natural IVF is affordable. Maybe that's why it doesn't work.

We are going to a private one this month and we'll compare them than,

I the old clinic I felt they didn't motivate themselves to succeed.
During IVF#1 dr. told me you'll be back, you'll be back....

Every dr. tells me different instructions about progesterone. One says take it vaginally is the best option, other 2 told me orally the best?!!

Question: why don't you retrieve eggs in the weekend. On answer was, "nobody will help you if you bleed too much". Another answer, "IVF lab is not open in the weekend."

ET is not taken seriously either. DR gynecologist,not RE perfoms it. She uses ultrasound and can not see catheter on it. She claims that 20years ago we didn't use U/S at all. This is not IuI my dear, it is way complicated, my dear!!!:dohh:

I hope you'll have better experience in your clinic. 
Congrats for choosing IVF and going forward. You'll see, maybe this is all you need.
Please tell your progress.


----------



## Briss

dovkav, have you stopped your progesterone? I have actually heard that injections are better than suppositories and much better than oral progesterone but then your progesterone was very high naturally so I do not think progesterone was an issue for you


----------



## dovkav123

My progesterone last month was 151 and this month 50. I beleave I produced some myself last month, and this month I didn't. 50 is still a good nr.

I called for genetic testing this morning. They want 180 euro for an appointment and 400 euro each for chromosomal genetic tests. This is not what we want. They focus to family history, early m/c, cystic fibrosis and other....

In US they do CGH embryo chromosomal testing, (uterus is in good conditon)if they tranfer this one and still BFN, than they really focus to immunity and blood clot disorder.

I havn't done any testing yet. I will.

If my tests are not ready, by my ET. I'll just take aspirin 81mg a day. Vit E1000mg, fish oil 3g a day and green tea supplements, Q-10 more that 100mg. They should slow down infammation and lower immunity. Also avoiding dairy, gluten, sugar(I am v. sensitive to sugar, I develop pimples on my chin), coffee helps. It's funny but I am kind of on this inflamm diet, maybe I have gut feelings.
I am wondering if I should take ciprofloxacin antibiotic when I trigger and till day ET? I read some RE prescribe it. I have them at home.

I drank wine for a couple of days and I can't fall asleep. I should stay away from it even during my AF.

sporadic m/c are chromosomal problems, failed 3 IvF(It's 2 officially for me, 1st IVF they didn't find an egg) is implantation problem.


----------



## Briss

151 is a lot of progesterone!! 50 I think is normal in a natural cycle, anything above 30 confirms ovulation. 

I think I read somewhere that embryo chromosomal testing has side effects, at the moment I do not think there are any safe embryo testing procedures cos they will be taking a sell from the embryo for testing which can destroy the embryo or cause defects. I would look into egg/sperm testing and immunology issues first. 

I generally do not take Vit E after O cos it was linked to birth defects. Just in case I stop it at O/EC. 

it could be due to implantation problem but It's also possible that it's the clinic's fault. 

I think my chemical is most likely due to:

80% chromosomal problems (70% sperm/30% egg issue)
20% implantation problem.


----------



## DBZ34

Yes, I think you want the auto-immunity testing instead of the genetic, if you're looking for why there's a possible implantation problem. (If you go to Lilsluz's journal, there's a full list of testing she had done that might help when you're asking your doctors about tests, if you haven't already looked at it). 

I would definitely not take the ciprofloxacin antibiotic unless your doctor says it's okay. Reading up on it, it sounds like it can take a lot out of you with the side effects and you don't want to be dealing with those around your ET days. You want to be nice and relaxed with a lot of laughter...the side effects sound much more unpleasant. Plus, you're not supposed to take it with anti-inflammatory pain killers, like aspirin. The aspirin might be better to take at this point. 

But the rest of your vitamin regimen sounds good though. (Though, like Briss says, high doses of Vit E can cause congenital heart defects if you take it during pregnancy, so decreasing it to a lower level would be good after ET. 1000mg is the upper limit suggested for dosage and you get some from foods naturally, so it would be good to decrease it anyway). 

I, too, feel like I have an implantation issue. That's why my doc prescribed the progesterone to help make my lining a bit more sturdy. I think it takes a couple of months to have an effect, but I'm hoping it will help soon. 

Good luck this month!!


----------



## Briss

Just got back from the open evening at CRGH. It's a different London clinic I am considering. I was mainly interested in IMSI and was a bit disappointed as this is very new procedure and apparently they only used it for about a year so not that much statistics. IMSI cannot guarantee that the sperm they pick for ICSI will be chromosomally OK but it increases the chances. They also said with my high FSH natural IVF is probably the way to go. they are against mild stimulation: either full on stimulation or completely natural cycle. the doc seemed to be impressed with my chemical (I mean why they are so excited about it, he was like that's great. really?) I know what he meant that considering that we only had one egg it does seem positive but of course it isn't. 

I was quite annoyed with people who turned up, unlike Create clients they seem to know so little they were asking very basic IVF questions and most questions were about success rate. I mean this is so simple and something you can easily check yourself before coming here. It was good that the docs and embryologist stayed after the session to talk to each couple. It would definitely be far more expensive than at Create: natural cycle 5,800 + ICSI 1,000 (I am sure there will be additional expenses) but DH liked them much better than Create. DH was annoyed that at Create I was seen by different person every time and that I was put on mild stim but the second egg was not collected. I personally liked Create, they are low key but everyone is very nice and they almost got us there. I am so sure if it was not for hubby's poor sperm we would have been happily pregnant now.


----------



## Briss

dovkav, how are you doing? have you decided what you are going to do next? 

afm, been to gyno today. When I listed all my complaints it seemed like I have a really messed up body after the IVF but she listened and then said it all sounds like my insides are functioning properly She did a scan and did not see any cervical cysts which is a relief, I hate it when they find new things for me to worry about. my lining is 13 mm which super good for 7 DPO as they want it to be at least 8mm. she said I had quite few follicles on the left and 3 on the right (more than before). She did say that my right cyst might be to blame for the right ovary being slower as it takes up some space on the ovary so possible that's why less follicles are being developed but removing the cyst may cause more damage to the ovary so she would definitely leave the cyst in. She did not think the cyst was affecting my FSH. She confirmed that I ovulated from left ovary this cycle (it was good to hear cos my temp is just crazy this cycle and I started doubting whether I ovulated at all). She could not say why I started spotting after AF, there only way to find out is to do another hysteroscopy with biopsy considering we are TTC this is just not worth it. She gave me antibiotics just in case but it may not resolve the issue so up to me if I want to take them. Overall she said everything is in order I just need to get pregnant...


----------



## dovkav123

I have made 2 appointments for tomorrow and it drives me crazy. I can't pick one and my hubby doesn't help me!!! I have to cancel one nowwww! Tomorrow is CD9 and we'll do IVF and it all depends on the follicle size. Private clinic doesn't retrieve in the weekend either. They have only emergency appointments on Saturday. If we are late for this cycle, I am hoping to do this natural:sex: and get preggo natural. What a crazy thinking! I have a horrible headache right now!!!!
I really think in the old clinic I lost hope and I think the new clinic will be like a placebo for me, I'll feel better and more positive. At least they'll do something different and right this time. I really want to go there that I can compare private clinic vs regular one. Maybe private clinic is motivated more to succeed.

I talked to my RE and he told me that nothing is wrong with us. We are both healthy. Natural IVF it is like a spontanious one egg, one sperm. For spontaniuos conception takes a year. Natural IVF may take 6 months?(I am thinking this) So we just need to keep trying. 
When I got in the room Of course RE started his stimulated cycle IVF report. 

They used antibiotics long time ago before ER but it didn't make a difference.

He is sure that eggs and sperm is fine. My hubbies aging sperm has nothing to do with implantation or possible chemical pregnancy. The only thing he stressed out about that child could have behavior problems: autism or ADHD.

They don't test embryo and sperm's chromosomes.

I am so happy Briss that your cyst is gone!!


----------



## Briss

dovkav, good luck with your cycle, I really hope this is going to be it for you! maybe the private clinic has better lab facilities and they will look after your embryo better? Have they mentioned any immune testing or anything else to assist implantation?


----------



## dovkav123

Thank you!
My hubby wants to stay in the old one. He doesn't trust a new RE for poking my ovaries. We are planing to go to the private one.

About immune testing my RE can test me if I want for the peace of mind. Autoimmune disease I was tested before cos I had low WBC.
For endo, he told me that yes, women with endo get preggo but it takes longer even with IVF.

The lab in Germany doesn't perform natural killer tests, in US only 3 labs do it.
I'll try to suppress my immunity and inflammation naturally with fish oil, green tea, Q-10.

thank you so much, girls for the info about VitE I also read about possible defects.

Assistant hatching my clinic perform to embryos for women 38 and over and also who failed IVF after healthy blasts.

He doesn't advice me wait for 5 days with one embryo. The study is done that uterus is healthier place for embryo than the tube.
Also I read that embryo culture media can harden his shell and rises issues for hatching. I really don't know what to do this cycle.

Trombofilia tests will be ready tomorrow.


----------



## Briss

I agree with just one embryo the sooner they can get it into your uterus the better. if you had a choice of embryos only then you could wait and see which one is stronger.


----------



## Electricat

This is last O before we go to the step of asking for help to conceive. :cry:

At least it looks like I'm going to O around CD 13-14 which is better than CD 10 I've had lately, I guess....give the eggie some time to mature, right?

We've heard lots of stories about ppl having to cancel IVF because they were preggers at the first appointment, right? Right?.....riiiiight?
Sigh...oh well, FX anyway :coffee:

I just wish we could do this alone, because it's really money we don't have :shrug:

Anyhooo - Here are my OPKs, looking goood :happydance:
https://babyandbump.momtastic.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=696165&stc=1&d=1383998338

Good luck, girls <3
 



Attached Files:







1422364_10151697849850950_966520904_n.jpg
File size: 25.7 KB
Views: 16


----------



## Briss

Electricat, that's great that you are ovulating slightly later, gives eggie time to mature and lining to grow. OPK is looking good. Fingers crossed you wont need IVF!! anything can happen.


----------



## Electricat

Thank you, Briss <3


----------



## dovkav123

Hi girls!
I am glad to report you that I have made the best decision ever to change the clinics. Thanks Briss so much for encouraging me to do that!:hugs:

CD9, 16mm follicle R (1st IVF follie was on right side-no egg found), uterine lining 7mm.

HCG trigger on Sunday 11pm and ER on Tuesday at 10:30am

Good outcomes of the appointment with a new RE

1. She also said it is in nature that for healthy couples get preggo naturally 20% each months. If embie is in me, we consider we are the healthy couple. With one egg we still have small 20% chance.

2. Trombofilia, immunity problems, autoimmunity and treatment for them with steroids and intralipids, heparin she did it and no good results. I didn't push for it, I hate taking drugs. That's my last resort. My thrombofilia results are ready, I'll find out on Monday.

3. She offered to have :sex: a night before ET, the studies are done and the outcome is positive. Sperm can aid implantation.

4. She adviced me to take another HCG trigger shot the day of ET. it may help with implantation.

5. She accepted our old infectious diseases tests from the other clinic, we are so happy about it! My old clinic had to redo the tests. It's there stinky policy.

6. This clinic has a little room that I can take my pants off! None of this comfort in my old clinic!!!

7. She told us to save up for 2 days for SA.

8. Progesterone taken orally liver removes 90% of it and only 10% stays. Probably I have a very sufficient liver it does a good job and doesn't give me hormone side effects. I guess it overworked for the past 3 months so I'll let her rest a bit. I'll take one vagnal and 2 oral this time.

9. She told me to come with a full bladder. Finally I met someone sane. Old clinic didn't care about this matter.

10. She doesn't use any painkillers for ER for natural IVF. I am going for it!!!! I am nervous a bit, but I am going for it! Who know, maybe voltaren is also to blame for failed IVF?

11. She didn't do my blood on CD9, it is too early for O, so she'll look onTuesday, if the follicle is still there.
12. My old clinic had a baby delivery center next door. Looking at preggo women and newborns was really depressing to me. Esspecially on the day of negative beta.

13. She agrees not wait till 5 days. Keeping embryo in the lab longer than 3 days doesn't make sense. The study was done and said that uterus is better conditions for embie that the tube. If you have few embies than you pick the best, this one make sense. Assisting hatching is not proven that it works.
We'll decide to do 2 day or 3 day transfer.

14. This clinic does ER on Saturday. They confirmed it. IVF lab opens for this matter.



*And the final thing that blew my mind and gave me huuuuge hope was her words:*"I saw on the ultrasound that you have anteflexed uterus. A difficuts one for ET."BINGO! This is the reason I failed my 2 IVF, hysteroscopy, countless amounts of U/S with counless amounts of different doctors! And no one noticed that my uterus is different!!! No one noticed I need a special, qualified ET!! Only me, my hubby saw what was going on! They keep puting embryo in the wrong place..

Anteflexed Uterus that leans forwards over the top of the bladder. I read that you are born with this or it is complicaton of the childbirth. It should not cause infertility problems.


Electrical, fantastic OPK well done! Don't worry about your chart, don't worry to about you O day, FF is is a scondary. OPK is your guide now. BD and relax. Praying and hoping this is your month!
I know the couple came to the first RE appoinmtent and the blood test suprised them- they were preggo! I am sending you this vibe for this cycle!!!

Briss, how are you feeling? I am glad all your "machinery" is working properly. You O'ed and that's the most important! Your temps could go crazy because of the weather, you may had a virus or so....
Spotting after period I was told is nothing to be concerned. Growing lining fast and nice could increase spotting. I spot every month.

Briss, did you pick a new clinic? It is more expensive but your overall impression was great and your Dh liked it. Two weeks left I can't wait you to start another IVF. So excited!


We'll pay tripple for this cycle. But it's worthy every penny. For who else we'll spend this money? Not for us, we have everything we need. 
I am glad that I'll see only one RE. She does U/S, ER and ET. This is a private clinic and a private, specific and personal aproach!

Briss, if I'll get preggo this cycle. I will recommend you to come to Germany and do your natural IVF cycle. My clinic will not charge me up front. If we won't find an egg, charging will stop here. For full IVF is 1250-1700 + 59.07 for sperm work. hormone testing 90-110 euro. Plus you'll have a vacation for a week. I'll find out on Monday how much ICSI costs. My old clinic didn't charge a penny.


----------



## dovkav123

Now I a have a question, should I transfer 2 or 3 day embryo? In the history of IVF in 80's 2 day embrios were transfered. THere is a study about 2 and 3 day embryos transfer and BFP. NO much difference, jus 3day embryo quality was worst than 2 day.

https://humrep.oxfordjournals.org/content/16/3/476.full

My thinking is better transfer 3day, cos my ovary will have time to heal from retrieval and my uterine lining will have time to grow and my progesterone will kick in by that time.


----------



## Briss

dovkav, I am so glad you are changing to clinic, I feel so much hope for you this cycle! 

3. about having sex after EC. I was told that there is a risk of infection and they do not recommend BD after EC cos it's a traumatic procedure, they go through the vaginal wall. I really wanted to BD because my second egg was not collected and it ovulated on its own after EC but after reading about the risk of infection i decided against it so not to sabotage the chances for our embryo.

4. this is new to me. no one ever mentioned taking another HCG trigger shot the day of ET to help with implantation. I will definitely ask the clinic next week

8. did she mention whether it's worth considering taking progesterone injections? 

9. I also did ET with a full bladder - such a pain I was struggling and had to rush to the loo 5 min after ET. I was so worried it could jeopardise our chances but they assured me it was safe for the embryo and indeed it was as our embryo survived and even tried implanting. 

10. I was completely out for EC. I was sedated but I fell asleep straight away and do not remember anything. You are brave in going with no sedatives. well done!

what does anteflexed uterus mean? is it cos it's slightly bent? I cannot believe you have gone through 3 IVFs and this is the first time anyone noticed!!! this is crucial! 

Overall, it looks very promising, I have a feeling that this is going to be a success for you!!

I am going to the second clinic tomorrow for a short one to one app to ask a few questions. The clinic has excellent rating but the price is just way too high. I talked to a few ladies who their stim IVFs there and they said you pay for every single thing almost twice as much as anywhere else. My concern it that they do not really specialise on natural IVF so may not expect it to work first time.

I also found a third clinic that can do natural IVF and has particular focus on ladies with high FSH - Lister clinic. I am trying to book an app with them to see what they are like.

My Dh is trying to quit beer but it's going really hard and he stopped vitamins which is of concern. I need his SA to be much better so we could have a good embryo this time.

Basically my concern with other clinics is that they do not specialise on natural IVF and may not necessarily be super careful handling just one egg. they are used to dealing with 10-20 eggs so if one gets spoiled it's not a big deal. The clinic where I am now is used to dealing with one egg so they appreciate the delicacy where everything is hanging on just one egg.

German prices are really super 1250-1700 I mean even 2,000 compared to 4,500-8,000 pounds over here for each cycle!! Does your clinic have a website? holidays in germany sounds really nice as well although will be hard to get hubby to stay away from all that delicious beer... :)


----------



## Briss

dovkav, personally I'd go for 2 day transfer for several reasons (i) your embryo may be developing better inside your uterus and on day 3 will be of better quality than if it was left in the lab. (ii) 2 days is enough to recover from EC and your cervix is still open. (iii) your lining will still have time to grow as the embryo would need a few days to float inside and grow until it becomes a blastocyst and gets out of its shell to be able to implant. In my clinic they only do 2 day transfer for natural IVf. 3-5 days transfer only when there is more than one egg.


----------



## dovkav123

Briss, I have sent you a private message. I want to keep it private.

2 Embryo may develop better in my uterus, I agree it could. Also I agree with you about my cervix, it will be softer and easier to enter with a catheter. Also it won't implant in few days. My lining is always perfect. It make all sense, thanks my friend!

36 hours after EC I think is enough the wound to close and heal. I think we'll go for BD. EC is only one poke. Compare to Stimulated cycle is a different story, more damage is done, your ovaries are sore and painful, and you don't want to BD. I also read to avoid BD before ET or after, cos semen may have bacteria and it is not good for an embryo. I am sure my hubby is healthy, he is super clean and hygenic. We don't have spontanious BD. We always take time to refresh before it.

no we didn't talk about injectable progesterone, I'll ask on Tuesday

Oh Yes, clinic needs to have experience for natural IVF.


----------



## bettybee1

Sorry for your failed cycle Hun , just butting here 

But in one of your posts you said that if your womb doesn't want 1 embyro why would it take 2 , well most women I know who have 2 embyros put back only get pregnant with 1 baby ! 

If you take them too blast then yeah 1 back is the same as 2 but since over 50% embryos die past day 4 then 

Actually introducing a small amount of stimulation has benefits too be able too harvest the best embryo and give you the best chance 

Am 21 , have had 2 failed ivfs both 2 embie tranfer just been through my 3rd ivf and am finally pregnant I had 2x 2 day transfer i am pregnant with 1 baby ! I grew my other 2 embies out too day 5 and one made it too blast ! And the other stopped growing day 4 

On my cycle 2 I had 13 embies going strong day 4 by day 5 there was only 4 good ones 

So I wouldn't nessalriy dismiss stimulation to yield more eggs , for you too have had 3 cycles with each time resulting in transfer is very good most people who do natural ivf never get too transfer stage , 

And depentent on your age aswell too what the quality is like after day 3 x


----------



## Briss

dovkav, thank you very much! totally understand re keeping things private. 

i think everything depends on what's bests and easiest in terms of doing ET with anteflexed uterus. I am not sure if it matters but maybe it does. 

bettybee, I agree generally stimulated cycles have better success rates, you have more eggs and more embryos to chose from. It makes sense to grow them in
a lab until day 5 to see which one is the strongest. In natural IVF you only have 1 egg/1 embryo so it's a different situation. There are many reasons why one may prefer a natural cycle. for example if there is a family history of ovarian cancer it is not advisable to do stim cycles as it has been shown to lead to ovarian cancer later in life (in 10-15 years time after the stimulation) in patients who have predisposition. also ladies with high FSH do not respond well to stim meds so cycles get abandoned. it's very individual.


----------



## bettybee1

You can use drugs like clomid and femera too though can't you too get at least 2-3 eggs without really creating a risk ? 

I know in England natural ivf is just as expense as normal ivf ? X


----------



## Briss

bettybee, natural IVF is a little cheaper cos you are not paying for meds but otherwise it's the same really. I would probably go for stim cycle if the NHS agreed to fund it but with my high FSH they said I was not eligible for funding. I was actually on 150 IU of menopur for my natural/modified IVF which gave me 2 follicles but one was very close to my ovarian cyst so they decided not to collect it (it ovulated on its own after EC). I am questioning now whether I should do any stims at all if they cant collect from my right ovary. what;s the point, right?


----------



## bettybee1

I don't know it's mental all this malarkey lol 

Some ladies who are 30 collect 13 eggs with 150mlu 

I collected 15 but I was on 225 the. Upped too 300 then back down :) 

Why couldn't they get too your right ovary ? X


----------



## Briss

they said it was too risky, the follicle was next to my cyst and they were afraid to puncture it. I only stimmed for 5 days from CD6. there were 6 follicles to begin with but only 2 grew, the rest vanished.


----------



## Briss

I went to CRGH for a short one to one with my list of questions. Their approach is so different from Create. They are determined to succeed but it scares me. they look more high end compared to Create. I have a few concerns (i) They sound a little bit ruthless. for example, at Create they are focused on preserving your health and wont do anything that may damage it even if it means minimising your chances of pregnancy, so they did not go after my second egg because the cyst was in the way. Now at CRGH, they say it depends on the cyst and in certain circumstances they will just go through the cyst in order to collect the eggs even though it's going to be punctured and spill into my abdomen. it's no biggie apparently. I can just take some antibiotics. what??? they will decide after the tests whether they do stims or natural IVF and with them you will just have to let it go completely and let them do whatever they want really. you will have no control so trusting them is crucial. (ii) They say they have extensive experience with high FSh and yet they wont do stims with FSH above 15 on any given cycle. I mean 15 is not that high! (iii) they cant do anything for sperm. it's the usual ICSI. they can do IMSi but it's still about morphology not chromosomes so I am not sure whether it's worth paying for. they suggested antioxidants (basically wellmen conception) and frequent ejaculation (every other day!!) to improve sperm quality (iv) cost &#8211; major concern cos they will start with doing your entire profile, it's all very expensive and I think it'll be twice as much as at Create, if not more. 

Lister booked me for their open day in January!! they seem to be very popular.


----------



## bettybee1

Hmmm they sound abit ruthless plus the fact they don't do ISCI is Krazy ! 

Your in the prime area in London Hun There are soooo many clinics around there !!! 

Up north there's hardly none !!!! 


Hmm I have heard good success stories from lister ? 
London's women clinc too ? 


I looked into create at 1st Nd wasn't really impressed I like determined consultants the one there calmly said it's a gamble with natural ivf or low stim ivf 

I have just my success at care fertilty , they have clinics all over and are very good !!! 

There was a lot of ladies I spoke too with dor so am sure they're experienced with it 

Also when your stimmulatin your carefully watched !!! And after your carefully watched xxx


----------



## Briss

ladies, I need your advice. Create is saying we need to step up for the second IVF cycle and do proper stimulation with Gonal F. That's completely the opposite from what I was expecting. I thought they would say no stimulation and let's do natural cycle. I do not know what to do because the whole point of going to Create is cos they use natural approach. Stims is the opposite of natural. maybe I should just go to CRGH cos these guys will do proper stims and their ratings for stim cycles are super (they are second in London I think). the only thing is CRGH may not do stim if my FSH is above 15 (which it is unfortunately) while at create they will stim with higth FSH and CRGH are so much more expensive. What would you recommend?


----------



## Electricat

Briss said:


> ladies, I need your advice. Create is saying we need to step up for the second IVF cycle and do proper stimulation with Gonal F. That's completely the opposite from what I was expecting. I thought they would say no stimulation and let's do natural cycle. I do not know what to do because the whole point of going to Create is cos they use natural approach. Stims is the opposite of natural. maybe I should just go to CRGH cos these guys will do proper stims and their ratings for stim cycles are super (they are second in London I think). the only thing is CRGH may not do stim if my FSH is above 15 (which it is unfortunately) while at create they will stim with higth FSH and CRGH are so much more expensive. What would you recommend?

I thought Create would only do moderate stim? Sorry, I don't know much about this, but by "proper" stim you mean full blown IVF, just like normal?

And if CRGH won't have you with FSH over 15 (and you are over 15?) It's a no brainer, sin't it?

Sorry to be of no help lol

AFM - I've sent Create a miffed e-mail today! Even before I've even been to a consult, they've messed up with getting back to me, so I had to be the one to prompt them to contact me so I could give them MY money. They charge the initial consultation over the phone and I have to remind THEM?

I just had to let them know I'm not impressed with the way I've been handled so far and that I hope they're administrative problems don't seep into how they take care of ppls health issues....

Yes I was a bit miffed and sent a sour e-mail...dunno if it's wise, but got annoyed I had to ASK them to take my money, when I REALLY don't wanna pay at all :growlmad:

Oh well..:wacko:


----------



## Briss

Electricat, thanks for responding. I do not know that much about stims. I think Create only does moderate stim but they said they would put me on antagonist short protocol and will start me off with small dose of 125 Gonal F and then increase as necessary. I cant tell whether that's mild stim or full blown. they said I reacted well to lower doses on menopur on my modified natural cycle that's why they want to do stims this time. 

FSH fluctuates so it can be lower next cycle. also if it is above 15, CRGH will do natural cycle.

I waited for over an hour for my follow up app but at least they took their time with me and answered all my questions, did a scan and proper assessment. I think all IVF clinics are very bad at admin matters, I do not know why but women complain about these things a lot, it's not just create. 

A lady came to the clinic today and showed off her scan pictures of her baby to the receptionists. We cycled at the same time and she got lucky while I did not. I had to hide in a toilet and have a little cry. it's just so sad.


----------



## Electricat

Briss said:


> A lady came to the clinic today and showed off her scan pictures of her baby to the receptionists. We cycled at the same time and she got lucky while I did not. I had to hide in a toilet and have a little cry. it's just so sad.

:cry::hugs:


----------



## dovkav123

Hi girls!
I'll be a horrible selfish right now and just tell you short note that everything was smooth today. 
One egg was found in the 24mm follicle
Sperm was very good, no ICSI
I was a hero today. ER without pain killer. Needle poke hurt only a second. Just cramping more than ussual later.
WE are doing 2dt.


----------



## Briss

dovkav, well done! wonderful news! you are true hero, EC with no sedation!! grow emby grow!!


----------



## Briss

it's just so hard to make a decision. I could not sleep all night and feel very stressed at the moment. DH decided we should go back to Create. I think it's mainly cash decision: 5K vs <8K. I almost persuaded myself that we should move to CRGH and then he comes back with Create. Quite unexpected cos it's a bit contrary to what he was saying before. I hope we are doing the right thing but I really cant tell. I realised that deep down I resent IVf so maybe that's why I cannot chose a clinic, I do not like any of them. I guess I need to start thinking positive about Create now. maybe I will get lucky this time, we almost did on our first try with just one egg. Besides they will do mild stims so hopefully I will get out of it pregnant and with my health intact.


----------



## bettybee1

Most of the time briss the main risk off stimming is ohss !!!!now I have had 40 follicles each cycle and loads off eggs and it's only this last time I got very bloated and I went for a scan my ovaries were tiny well Normal 

And I doubht with your fsh been so high that's you would get ohss 

Because you had spotting quite early after transfer I would be asking for estrogen & extra progestrone for after egg collection :D xxx


----------



## Briss

bettybee, thank you! I asked about estrogen but they said they do not do that and it's a completely different protocol where they use estrogen. I do not think I am at a risk of getting ohss cos stimulation will be mild and I do have high FSH but there are millions of other side effects of stims. do not really want to talk about it now cos trying to think only positive thoughts as far as possible...


----------



## bettybee1

Every clinic can give estrogen not estrogen priming it for extra lutuel support 

I demanded it they finally gave me that's why I think am pregnant !!! Xxxx


----------



## bettybee1

There is risks off stims but very very small ones later in life & haven't actually been proved that well 

To me when a lady is pregnant they produce so many hormones that the ones you get as a result of stimming that's they suggest cause cancer are on parr xxx


----------



## dovkav123

Eggy didn't fertilize in 24 hours,:cry: so I asked if it could happen later. IVF lab maybe so they kept it one more day. This morning I called and we have bad news, no fertilization, but the good news that DH little swimmers are still alive after 48 hours.
I think I have a lazy right ovary. IVF #1 no egg was found and this cycle is finished.
This cycle i didn't heat my ovaries before EC and I didn't take maca root. 

Briss, Is a new clinic told you to go ahead and do EC and poke your cyst? This is horrable. I know many girls end up in the emergency for painful cyst rupture. You don't want to chance it. Don't pick that clinic! It is not about pain it is about the risk of friendly cyst becoming bad one.

Sorry you tested BFN,
I beleave in Christmas magic..

It is important to get BFP after stimulated IVF, than your chances are lower for later cancer.


----------



## Briss

dovkav, I am so sorry!!! what do they say? was the egg not mature or quality not great? is it possible that the egg's shell is too tough to penetrate? At least you know now that you need to wait for the left ovary (what is it with right ovaries!! mine is not doing well either). it's really good that your DH's sperm is so strong! what do they recommend to do now? 

just got my AF and ready to start IVF No. 2. I am on short antagonist protocol (but with mild stimulation). I got my meds and a letter that hopefully will let me take it with the needles as my hand luggage. I am going abroad tomorrow and will have to start my injections there. Need to make sure none of my colleagues who are travelling with me will see the letter cos it says "fertility treatment". I need to keep it in the fridge which is a bit of a nuisance. had to cover it up at work so people do not see what that is. I'd also need to somehow manage to get out of the corporate dinner tomorrow and stab myself in my tummy. It's a different FSH this time Gonal F (last time it was menopur), they say they want to see whether I react better to this one. They start me with very low dose as they say 125 (usually they start with 150) on CD2 which is tomorrow. here I go again!

I returned to my previous clinic for the second round. hard to say whether that is a right decision but it's done now, I just need to try and feel positive about everything. 

Poking your cyst during EC did not sound right to me either. the doc who said that was very young but it made me nervous, I will be paying lots of money for the treatment and they may give me this young doc who just does not know that much and is not afraid to take the risk at my expense. scary stuff! 

I will just have to take the risk with stimulation I suppose. I do not know if this is going to give us better chances, I can only hope&#8230;


----------



## dovkav123

an egg was matured, and the sperm was super, it is only 50% of fertilisation rate so I guess we were just unlucky ones. Next time we'll need to do ICSI.
I am glad you stayed with your old clinic. It's only your second try. I really really hope this time will work for you!
You are creative, you'll keep your secret from curious eyes:)

Briss, I had an opposite experience.:hugs:
I met a couple who didn't get preggo in my old clinic. I saw them in the restaurant. They started talking to me that they remembered me and my hubby waiting in the clinic. WE had the same RE. She is 43 and he 53. They were not lucky with natural IVF, stimulated and donor egg (in Austria). They stopped trying...I will not stop trying. I felt that I am still young and I have time....
She shaked my hand and made me promise to her that I'll come back to this restaurant with a big belly. I promised.....My body was shaking , I had chills and tears..in my eays:cry:

They were the owners of a beautiful restaurant, I thought money was not an issue for them. So I was hoping they picked the best clinic, my clinic. But I was wrong... they were not lucky either.


----------



## dovkav123

Thrombofilia is negative.
AMH went up from 1.29 to 2.2. I guess poking ovaries only helps my fertility!
My RE told me your age will determine your fertility and amh, not an injury to an ovary and she war right!

I really want to try another IVF in December. Maybe I'll have my BFP on my birthday!


----------



## Briss

dovkav, age is definitely on your side! I so wish we started when I was 5 years younger. never mind. your eggs are great!! with natural IVF we were given 25% BFP and 10-16% live birth so basically you need around 10 attempts! not great odds. I think it's just luck was not on your side and there were mistakes like with your dramatic ET &#8211; this should not have happened! I'd try again with your second clinic when you ovulate from your left ovary. I totally agree there is no reason why you should give up TTC, you will succeed and have children! nothing else to say


----------



## Briss

just had my first scan on CD 5 and so far so good; 8 follicles on the left, all different sizes; only 2 on the right. follicles on the right are not collectable as the needle will have to go through the cyst and puncturing the cyst have a risk of infection; lining looks very good it's still menstrual but the triple layer is coming through; good blood flow. waiting for my blood results but for the time being I am staying on 125 Gonal F. EC is likely to be Sunday/Monday CD11/12. seems a bit early?

My poor DH had to pay the full amount today and he was slightly shocked so I had to take him for a cup of coffee so he could recover. tbh, I'd much rather part with the money then have to go through stims! we had a bit of a chat about what wonderful things this cycle could bring about finally and I think his mood gradually improved. He decided to cancel drinks tomorrow cos he felt foolish for drinking and damaging our chances while paying so much money for it. finally he is showing some sense!! 

we paid for the embryoscope (in case we will have more than 2 embryos). I hope it's worth it. they said it's most likely to be 3 day transfer cos by day 3 they can see through the embryoscope all they need to know about the embryo's chances and they believe my uterus is the best place for it so the sooner it can get in there the better. 

My next scan is on CD 7.


----------



## dovkav123

I am glad everything goes smoothly to you ! 8 follicles:thumbup::thumbup:
Great news!:happydance:
I am happy your hubby realizes to quit drinking, you may be luckier this time.
I asked my RE about drinking, should he stop before ER? She just smiled and told me that he should drink minimum always.

My clinic charges 200 euro for ICSI for one egg.
We don't need to do that next time. My RE confirmed that my egg fertilized but had 3 pronucleus instead 2. Chromosomal problems with sperm or egg.
But IVF lab told me that egg didn't fertilize. Why did they lie?
I have to clear this out!
CD11, 12 is not early I had ER done on CD12.


----------



## Briss

dovkav, I remember with our first IVf the embryologist was giving us about 70% that the egg will fertilise properly meaning that it will have 2 pronucleus the next day. I was so nervous waiting for the news. the egg is supposed to get rid of its half and take on the sperm's and if it does not do that you get 3 pronucleus. I think they may treat it in the same way as the egg not being fertilised? if it's not fertilised you either wont get any pronucleus at all or get 3, if it's properly fertilised you will get 2. basically the embryologist told us the same day that the egg was mature and they managed to proceed with ICSI but it's only the next day that they told us that the egg fertilised and has 2 pronucleus and then on the second day they told us it divided into 4 sells.

it's great that DH might be quitting beer but it takes 3 months to make a sperm so I guess the damage has been done already. still I am really hoping he wont do any more damage.


----------



## Briss

I had my second scan today on Cd 7 (6th day of stims) and it's bad news I am afraid. my ovaries are not responding to stimulation, only 2 follicles have grown since last scan. They are considering two options (i) cancelling the cycle or (ii) increasing Gonal F from 125 to 300. I am really not sure what to make of it. I hated the idea of stimulation to begin with and was happy to do another natural cycle with just one egg so to me going through hated stimulation and cancelling the cycle after I have already consumed so much meds is just unthinkable. On the other hand increasing FSH almost 3 times is worrying as my two leading follicles may grow really fast (the largest is already 16mm) not giving the eggs a chance to mature properly. There is no guarantee that my other follicles will respond to higher dose so I may still end up with just 2 follicles but much sooner. Was told to start cetrotide today to supress LH (am still waiting for my bloods). my lining is perfect: 9.8 mm /triple layer but what's the point&#8230; I am trying not to get emotional here and just take what comes


----------



## bettybee1

If it was me I would increase too 300 mlu !!!! And go for it what u got too loose!!! 

Don't worry about been on day 6 with hardly nothing I was 20 now 21 when I started ivf with a v high afc & amh is good


1st cycle 8 days of stims with 150 mlu nada just lining change , 225 for another 5 days got progression collected 8 eggs 

2nd cycle 8 days of stims 225 nada just lining change 6 days of 300 16 eggs !!!! 

3rd cycle 225 for 8 days tiny weenie process ! Up to 300 for 2 days back down too 225 15 eggs. !!!! 

I say go for the more stims !!! X


----------



## Briss

bettybee, thanks for responding! I just got a call from the clinic my estradinol is 1,516 and LH 6.3, they want me to go up to 250 of Gonal F and start cetrotide to suppress LH for the next two days. I am going for it so fingers crossed it will result in more mature eggs and a healthy pregnancy


----------



## bettybee1

250 mlu is probley what u need !! 

Your estrogen levels are good for where u are ! 

Most. People stim for 12-16 days your only on d6 plenty of time :) x


----------



## Electricat

Briss said:


> I had my second scan today on Cd 7 (6th day of stims) and it's bad news I am afraid. my ovaries are not responding to stimulation, only 2 follicles have grown since last scan. They are considering two options (i) cancelling the cycle or (ii) increasing Gonal F from 125 to 300. I am really not sure what to make of it. I hated the idea of stimulation to begin with and was happy to do another natural cycle with just one egg so to me going through hated stimulation and cancelling the cycle after I have already consumed so much meds is just unthinkable. On the other hand increasing FSH almost 3 times is worrying as my two leading follicles may grow really fast (the largest is already 16mm) not giving the eggs a chance to mature properly. There is no guarantee that my other follicles will respond to higher dose so I may still end up with just 2 follicles but much sooner. Was told to start cetrotide today to supress LH (am still waiting for my bloods). my lining is perfect: 9.8 mm /triple layer but what's the point I am trying not to get emotional here and just take what comes

Wow - I actually understood all what you are talking about here, cuz I had my first consultation today and they explained the procedure for me.
I'm sorry you have to worry about the increased medication, but I think I would do as mentioned, just go ahead instead of cancelling cycle.
Wish u best of luck! :thumbup:


----------



## Electricat

AFM

I'm officially (or secretly really, because OH and I are the only ones knowing we're trying for a baby) on the IVF rollercoaster!

I had my initial consultation yesterday which was my CD 22.
Doc did a scan and it looks like my lining is the culprit (or at least part of it, because I have no idea if my eggs are rotten), it was only 5.5 mm and that would not be able to sustain a pg. I have thought that it is a problem with my very short and light periods, but Dr. Google has calmed me down as I read about other women only having three days of flow and it not be a problem. Looks like my instinct were right - remembering back to before I had my IUD in for 15 years :wacko: (Doc did say it could be the reason for poor lining).
I had 11 follicles on my two ovaries and a healthy looking Corpus Luteum. 

Doc suggested a mild stim cycle and endometrial scratching.
Have any of you ladies in here had that done? If so - did you think it helped?

Anyway, we turned around really quickly and decided to get it done my next cycle so I needed to get the scratching done in this luteal phase. AF is due in the end of this week.
Did a beta to make sure I wasn't pregnant (yah, with a lining of 5.5, not gonna happen, but just in case I wanted to make sure). It came back negative and I was scheduled for the scratch and IVF consultation today :thumbup:

The scratching was ok - a bit painful, but the nice nurse let me squeeze her hand as much as I wanted and it was done in like 10-15 minutes.

I got a batch of Gonal F in my fridge and when AF arrives I'll start with a 125 dose on CD2.

Hopefully everything will work like clockwork with no hiccups....like the fact that my OH (who's in the army) is back from his one week tour by the time of egg collection :dohh:

Please, dear :witch: don't come too early, and don't come too late...Saturday would be - puuurrrfect.

...assuming that I react like expected to the drugs :cry:

GL to all of us!


----------



## Briss

Electricat, did they do the scratching with no sedation? you poor thing! I can only imagine how painful it must have been. My clinic offered the scratching but I refused cos my lining seems to be OK. I know they recommend it to everyone cos it showed to improve IVF success rates but I think we have other more pressing issues to worry about. 

you are starting the same protocol as me, I also had a 125 dose of Gonal F from on CD2. best of luck with your cycle, I hope it all goes to plan and the timing will be perfect! keep us posted.

btw, did they recommend anything else to improve your lining?


----------



## Electricat

Briss
No, they don't offer sedation for that - they say take painkiller before procedure so I took a couple of Tylenol.

Yes, I grabbed the opportunity because it seems like my problem is the lining.
Time will show if it helps.

No, they did not say anything else to aid with lining except the Gonal F.
(and moving around ofc. to help blood flow to uterus)

Does the drugs make you feel different? Emotional? Hot? Itchy - skin turning green?? I don't know! lol

I worry about sticking myself too.. sigh.


----------



## Briss

TMI these meds make me super horny... that's a definite "side effect" cos I am not normally like that so early in my cycle. I hope it's a good thing, anything that helps blood flow to that area is generally great. also my AF was only 5 days with no tail end spotting, my usual AF is 6 days + occasional 1-2 days spotting. last night I noticed I started getting really bloated, last IVF it only happened after ET but this time around it's only CD 7 and I already look slightly pregnant. 

do you drink red raspberry leaf/ red clover / nettles / mint tea? it's supposed to help with the lining I drink it daily until ovulation/EC (there is a small risk of uterine contractions so better to stop after O) and I drink nettles + mint daily throughout the cycle.


----------



## bettybee1

Don't drink raspberry tea! 

Just stick too green or black decaf tea ! 

Yeah my 'fu fu ' kind off swelled a lil making me want it all the time haha !! Now am pregnant am the same !!! Apart from it stings now !! Strange !!! X


----------



## Briss

bettybee. green tea is great but it does have caffeine so I try to mix it up with caffeine free teas. decaffeinated coffee/tea is best avoided cos they use chemicals in the process. there are some that are being decaffeinated with water but it's not easy to find. 

bettybee, you should not drink Red Raspberry Leaf tea cos you are pregnant but it's actually supposed to be very good for fertility in general and lining in particular while TTC (still better to stop after O just in case).

"Red Raspberry Leaf help to tone the uterus. It also helps to lengthen luteal phase. It also helps to improve and promote blood flow to reproductive organs. The various properties of Red Raspberry Leaf help to strengthen the lining of the uterus and thus improve the chances of implantation."

https://www.naturalfertilityguide.com/raspberry-leaf/


----------



## bettybee1

Oh okay. Thought you meant too support lining implantation!! 

I eat Brazil buts & walnuts 

Green. Tea overrules the tiny amount off caffeine init !! One cup a day won't harm !! Hun x 

I stopped eating process foods and refined sugar 

Aldo drank a glass of milk a day & pineapple juice xxx


----------



## Briss

It looks like the stimulated cycle just does not work for me. there is very little progress on the scan this morning. CD 9 and 8th day of stims, two dominant follicles are still there 14/16 mm there is a third one at 9mm which may catch up so they want to keep me on stims for 2 more days but depends on my bloods today. Follicles on the right did not grow but that's OK cos they cant access the right ovary because of the cyst anyway. Generally the doc said if I need any more IVF in the future she would not recommend doing any more stimulated cycles cos I had 2 follicles on my natural/modified cycle as well so same result with much less meds. oh well, I sort of knew that with my high FSH I am not a great IVF candidate hence the reason the NHS is refusing the funding. The good news is that my blood flow to the ovaries, follicles and uterus is very good and she said it's a positive sign and there is hope that the egg quality is good so at least there is that. the lining is perfect 11 mm triple layer. They will most likely still proceed on the basis of two follicles but will do 2 day ET. I am thinking whether we still need to pay 600 for the embryo scope cos it's not going to make a difference in choosing the embryo as there is no choice but it may give us some more info on how the embryos are developing which may explain the chemical last cycle but then again with day 2 ET there wont be that much time and into its just going to be 4 cell embryos. The strangest thing is my ovaries feel so full and heavy as if they are giant and filled with hundreds of follicles, I am also bloated and had a fair amount of bleeding after the injection last night, tummy is still hurting.


----------



## Electricat

Sorry about your slow progress, Briss - but as we all know, it only takes that one egg :thumbup:
Crossing my fingers for you - I sooooo hope it goes well for you, it gives me hope for me (makes no sense, I know but it makes me feel better).

I'm just waiting for CD1 - looks like it's gonna be right on time tomorrow as I was spotting after my run today.


Fingers crossed for us :flower:


----------



## Bkrispy

I am thinking natural/micro/mini (whatever spiffy name each clinic calls it..) 
I had to have my tubes removed 7 years ago. But other than that, I conceived spontaneosly for both ectopics, with blocked tubes, first in 3 months, and second in 6. So I think I should be golden for this. 
I don't want to be popping in here and asking a bunch of dummy questions, but is this realistic?? I want to know if this actually is a good idea, or if it's more cost effective to just go ahead with traditional (as apposed to 10 rounds of mini)


----------



## Briss

Bkrispy, there is no simple answer unfortunately, it all depends on your stats and age and your general attitude towards medication. We had one natural cycle and were almost successful but not quite. It was very straightforward and I did not feel like my body was messed up and was ready to carry on going every other cycle. I am now doing stimulated cycle and actually regret it because so much drags is being pumped into me with very little difference in result to my natural cycle. I really hope we are successful but if not it will probably take some time for me to recover before I can carry on again. I guess my initial feeling that stim cycle is not for me was quite accurate but we will see. I think the best way for you would probably be going around a few clinics are asking questions about what they recommend but generally clinics like stim cycles more cos the success rates are higher and they can control the cycle with little expense. natural cycle requires lots of monitoring and working weekends and clinics do not like it. it looks like your only issue is tubes so I do not see why you would not be successful on your first try with a natural cycle. 

afm, My bloods are back and it looks promising, estrogen went up to 2,678 but LH dropped back to 3.9 (I did not know it could go down I thought it only goes up until the surge but apparently not) which is great (also means that cetrotide is working) cos hopefully I wont be having my surge just yet and we have a couple of days of stims to see if the third follicle will catch up. Would be nice to have a choice and maybe even to have a spare one to freeze.


----------



## Electricat

Briss, could you please explain to me how that "trigger shot"? works?

You take the block medicine for the last days to have every follicle grow as much as possible - then you trigger? Is the trigger LH? If so, why is that given? Isn't there a danger of the LH popping the follicles and they miss the eggs?
I didn't quite get what she told me on the consultation - something about 36 hours before you get the ER-appointment? I would be scared of my follicles popping ahead of time! 

I guess what I'm trying to ask is why do you need the LH when they're gonna stick a needle in the follicles anyway?


----------



## Briss

they need trigger so they could time EC perfectly. timing is everything it has to be just right not too early so the egg is mature and not too late not to miss the egg. eggs grow inside follicles but as far as I know they properly mature after LH surge and are ready to be released 36-48 hours after the LH surge. they do not want to wait for your natural LH surge cos it can start at any hour randomly and they wont be able to time EC that's why they suppress your natural LH and instead trigger with artificial LH at a certain hour (once they are happy with the follicles size) and do EC exactly 36 hours later. there is always a risk that your natural LH surge will override suppression. it happened to me last IVF so they put me on some other medication to preserve the follicle between the surge and EC. when you go for EC you are never 100% sure you have not ovulated yet, there is always a small risk.


----------



## Electricat

Briss said:


> they need trigger so they could time EC perfectly. timing is everything it has to be just right not too early so the egg is mature and not too late not to miss the egg. eggs grow inside follicles but as far as I know they properly mature after LH surge and are ready to be released 36-48 hours after the LH surge. they do not want to wait for your natural LH surge cos it can start at any hour randomly and they wont be able to time EC that's why they suppress your natural LH and instead trigger with artificial LH at a certain hour (once they are happy with the follicles size) and do EC exactly 36 hours later. there is always a risk that your natural LH surge will override suppression. it happened to me last IVF so they put me on some other medication to preserve the follicle between the surge and EC. when you go for EC you are never 100% sure you have not ovulated yet, there is always a small risk.

Ah ok, thank you.
So there is an element of uncertainty about the surge, cuz I was thinking what if my body is more "sensitive" to LH surge and I pop all my egg baskets after 24 hours you know?
I've just seen on my OPKs that they go from very faint to a dark line quickly and often I have temp rise very shortly after, sometimes the same day as pos OPK. So it made me think my bubbles burst easily within surge - if I make any sense. Maybe if I tell them my suspicion they have some backup plan. Or if I'm completely off my rocker, they can tell me so and I'll be fine. I guess they've done this before - hehe

Tnx for explanation :flower:


----------



## Briss

my temp went up on the morning of EC and I had all the usual symptoms confirming that i ovulated. I was so sure I ovulated but they did a scan before EC and my follicle was still there :)


----------



## Electricat

Maybe stay off the temping? Just not to freak out? Did you do OPKs?


----------



## Briss

my LH went up despite taking the meds so they asked me to do OPK. it was negative but then about 3-4 before I was supposed to do the trigger it turned positive. i called the clinic but they said it was OK but I need some additional meds. I asked the doc at EC about temping and she said they do not rely on temp but they do trust OPK


----------



## Briss

not great news from today's scan, two left follicles have grown nicely at 19/20 mm but the third one at 16 mm has grown on the right side right above my cyst and they said the cyst is not a simple one cos it has blood inside so they wont be trying to collect that egg because the risk of puncturing the cyst and infection is just too great. So if we are lucky we will get two eggs. My lining is all ready at 13.3 mm. I triggered tonight and EC is scheduled for Tuesday. fingers crossed!!

I asked again about such poor response to meds but it seems like everyone has a different opinion. today's doc said we should try (hopefully we wont have to though) to start with the large dose from CD2 and will possibly get much better result. seems like some think we should stick to natural while others believe more stims are needed. how confusing, seems like there is no simple answer. 

finaly got my notes from our previous IVF and apparently our 2 day embryo was graded 4cl/1f, seems ok but i do not really like "f", do not know what it means but it cant be good.


----------



## bettybee1

Hmmmm how long you been stimming for ??? And what dose ? 

I would suggest if this doesn't work which am hoping it does that you go somewhere else that will stimulate you properly and accordling too get A good amount off eggs hunnie especially with your right been out off bounds ?

Or even get your cyst aspirated. ? X


----------



## Electricat

You can do it, Briss - I'm cheering for you!!
I have no knowledge of this stuff, so I don't understand why they can't just suck the cyst out at EC.
It's what they do with the normal follicles anyway. But I guess there is a good reason...like that it would act like a water balloon with a needle and not like a plastic bag with water in it.
Your lining is perfect though, so very good chance of implantation :thumbup:

Good luck.


----------



## Briss

Thanks ladies, unfortunately that's not a type of cyst that can be aspirated. it can be removed during a lap surgery but most likely with part of the ovary which is a no for me cos at the moment at least the ovary is ovulating on its own (although not much use of that with low sperm count). I had 9 days of stims: 5 days on 125 Gonal F and 4 days on 250. We could try a different clinic or a different protocol but with high FSH the odds are really against us. hoping and praying&#8230;


----------



## bettybee1

Urghh 9 days on that low dose is not long at all Hun 

Really you should off be started on 300mlu and then adjusted accordling xxx


----------



## Briss

EC was, to put it mildly, disappointing. Only one mature egg. I had a temp rise this morning and suspected I ovulated and turned out I was right. one of the two follicles on the left disappeared. Somehow, the doc managed to get one more egg from my right ovary without touching the cyst so we had 2 eggs collected but the lab just confirmed that only one egg was mature for ICSI. anxiously waiting for the news on fertilisations tomorrow. 

had a bit of a breakdown when we got home, all the stims etc and the result is no better than we would have got from a completely natural cycle. I will spare you what my DH had to say on the matter but he is very upset. Mainly with the clinic for making me go through the stims and for missing the egg. The doc said there was no way to prevent early ovulation. 

I feel quite sick and distressed. trying to calm down


----------



## bettybee1

am sorry hun glad you have one tho :)

wasnt you on cetrodie ?/?// :000000

really think if this cycle doesnt work which i hope it does that you need too find a better clinc there crap !!!1

who starts a lady off on 125mlu of bloody gonal-f which isnt as good as menpour especailly in high fsh ladies i feel angry for you 


you should off started off on at least 300-350mlu off menpour then when follicles get to 10mm your given cetriode it stops ovulation from occuring then on your tracking scan if things are growing too fast they knock your dose down lower if things are okay they keep you the same and stim you normally for at least 12 days xxx


----------



## Electricat

Ah crap, Briss :wacko:
Did you get any BD in? Maybe you caught the eggie on your own?
In any case - you only need one, right?

Crossing my fingers for you!

bettybee1 - I'm on 125 of Gonal f and my FSH has been 19. My Dr. (and later my nurse) didn't even flinch. I brought it up and they both just went, "meh, you had 11 follicles, you've been pregnant before - this is a go".
I'm worried they're just taking my money and not really giving me good advice. :dohh::growlmad::cry:

Again, Briss - good luck, I'm cheering for you


----------



## bettybee1

obvouisly what i say about it is just what i ahve heard from docters etc and other people 

but my docter started me on 225 menpour i have pco and only 20 at the time my fch is 4-5 my amh 24 !!


its okay to start on a low dose aslong as if you aint responding they up it 

but i think menour is the better one as it has LH in aswell and helps the follice mature aswell xxx


----------



## Briss

Thank you ladies. I was on cetrotide for the last 4 days of stims and stopped before trigger. but my LH was rising even while on cetrotide but I did OPK at 6 pm on the night of trigger and it was negative. looks like I ovulated the next day after trigger. so much for 36 hours... 

They wanted 3 days of abstinence for DH so we did not BD since saturday :( 

my clinic does not seem to use menopur for stim cycles only in modified natural. I was on 150 last cycle for 5 days from CD 6 and had 2 follicles.


----------



## bettybee1

defo if it doesnt work get to a new clinc none of this "'modified"" mild its just a money making game 

:hugs:


----------



## Briss

bettybee, clinics do not accept ladies with FSH above 15 for IVF. I talked to a few top IVF clinics in London and that's what they said. i guess they do not want to ruin their stats. it's very depressing. I really hope this cycle works for us. I am exhausted tbh. I have booked a visit to Lister in January, it's a private clinic that works with high FSH ladies so maybe they will suggest something else.


----------



## Briss

my only egg did not fertilise. they told me it was not good quality. I was very suspicious when they did not give me meds for the entire 2 weeks just for a few days. I guess they already knew that the chances of fertilisation were slim but did not tell me. strange after all this talk on how great my blood flow was and that I am to expect good quality eggs. The embryologist mentioned that the meds might have affected egg quality because my egg was of good quality on the previous natural cycle. maybe the one they missed was the only good one this cycle. My husband blames the clinic, 6K down the drain + me having to go through the stims and the result is worse than in a natural cycle. It's the end of the road for this cycle. this is going to be the hardest TWW ever with no hope whatsoever. I am in pieces and cant even think clearly where we go from here. totally devastating...

after 2 failed cycles, DH does not want any more IVF until next summer. he said it's his turn to take the drags (he struggled to see me going through stims) so finally agreed to see a urologist. I just cannot stop crying


----------



## bettybee1

Am so sorry Hun as I had 2 failed cycles diff circumstances I can Relate it's depression and a horrid feeling , 

I think nhs hosptials take high fsh ladies ? You self fund through them everything is cheaper ? Maybe try that ? 

Also waiting till next summer is going too add an extra year too your eggs? 

What's your amh ? X


----------



## Electricat

I'm so sorry, Briss :cry: :hugs:
At least you got time, right? For me, if this fails I'm out for having a baby - ever. Door shut.

I dunno what to say other that I feel for you and I hope you will get your baby in the end, just not this cycle.

:hugs:


----------



## Briss

bettybee, My AMh was between 6.6 and 9 this year so not terribly low and my AFC was 6-10 which is also reasonable so it's just FSH which is depressing at 16-19. NHS refuses finding for FSH above 12 but you can go as self funded. I still do not know what is the difference between self funded and private? I made an app with my NHS FS who can refer me but it most likely going to be self funding and she said around 7.5K so not really cheaper than just going private. I am trying to get funding based on my low FSH of 8 (I had a cycle where my estrogen went really high and suppressed FSH so maybe she could use that as a formality for referral). We spent 11K already on these two IVFs so DH is quite upset about money as well. why did your fist cycles failed? did you change the clinic? 

Electricat, you are breaking my heart. why is this your last attempt? Sorry I forgot are you with Create? I have to say that my second cycle was managed very badly and lots of things went wrong and I am not happy about it at all. I was very happy after my first IVF as we almost got there with just one egg and they are very good at natural cycles but I have doubts they know what they are doing when it comes to stim cycles. Maybe I was just very unlucky but I feel mistreated. 

I am still in shock, constantly crying and in disbelief. At the moment I do not even know what to think and what to hope for


----------



## bettybee1

The nhs meds tho are halv the price Hun aswell and your follow up apps etc and if you need ought else are very cheap or free :) 

My 1st 2 cycles I did at my local nhs hosptial !! And both times I had top quality embyros I was only 20 so what they should have been and I really should of got preg my lining was gorgeous ! Everything was perfect apart from my period came early like 6-7 days early 4-5 days after transfer this was bad as my embies had no chance !!! 

I only changed clinic as I egg shared this time round :) too make it cheaper but I explained about my period coming ealry and I said to them that because I was getting 40+ follies and loads off eggs my ovaries go crazy therefore had a lot off estrogen in my system but the bad & good thing is that after ec my body just get rid of all the extra hormones and send ovaries back too normal therefore my period coming early !!! These cycles I was just on the average 400mg progestrone 

This cycle I was on 6 mg estrogen 600mg of one progestrone and 400mg of another !!!! And it worked !!!!! 
And at a 5 weeks scan it proved that my body makes my ovaries calm down extremely quickly as my ovaries were the normal size and all the follicles had nearly gone i! At my 7 week scan at my fertilty clinic they actually couldn't believe how normal my ovaries was te nurse even got the docter too come in and look :/ !!! She said they have never seen someone who had as many mature follicles that I have and my ovaries too look like that she said normally pregnancy worsens them and most ofthe time ovaries are nearly touching :0 !!! 

Proper strange as with my dd I took 50mg clomid as my periods were abit all over after coming off contraption and I actually got ohss moderate with her and was hosptialsed my ovary was hugeree!!! 

Weird !!!!! 

Yeah it's a lot off money we have spent 15-16000 on fertilty treatments this year ! It drained out accounts and wages every month it's hard but so worth it !!!! Xxxx


----------



## Briss

bettybee, thanks! I did not know self funded route had its benefits, meds half price is certainly worth considering Although I am not sure stims are for me. there is no point in getting more eggs if meds are making them of such poor quality that they are not capable of being fertilised. I guess it's the age thing, the eggs are more fragile and are easily affected by external factors despite excellent blood flow to the follicles 

This is so surprising that your AF came 4-5 days after transfer while you were still on progesterone. when I had my chemical my AF could not start until I stopped the progesterone. I was on 800-1200 a day so I guess 400 was just too low for you. Amazing to have 40+ follies!! I only had 3&#8230;

Why did you need IVF? do you have a male factor? 

Dovkav, how are you doing? are going to try again with your private clinic?


----------



## bettybee1

Yeah male factor , my husband got crushed in Afghanistan last year :( so he now has sperm antibodies :( bloody shit !!! 

It may not have been meds that caused it Hun because when I got 13 fertilized 10 were fab but 3 were completely shit and didn't grow !!! Xxx


----------



## Electricat

I'm afraid I'm going down the same road as you, Briss :nope:

Had my CD6 (Four days of stim, as I took my shot when I got back this evening) and only had 5 (around 10mm) follicles. On the initial scan I had 11 follicles and somehow thought at least 8-9 would grow? :cry:

They up my Gonal f to 175 but told me my Estrogen was fine (1000-something, don't remember).

Only 5 follicles :cry: I'll imagine only one or two (if any!) will grow ripe enough for EC, and none of them fertilize :nope:
I know I have to stay positive, but I've always been a realist and like to know the facts :growlmad:
I know we have the same FSH, Briss, so I'm thinking I'm going down same road as you.

Sigh..
Wish me luck.

How are you doing after failed EC, do you cry less, or do you still feel down? :hugs:


----------



## Briss

Electricat, 5 follicles is much better than what I had which is just 2 (out of 10), I hope all 5 will continue growing and hopefully all mature for EC. wishing you best of luck.

bettybee, i am very sorry about what your DH had to go through! must have been so hard for both of you. 

afm, still very sad (and very angry at the clinic!) and tbh cant talk about it yet just trying to get through this day by day. I was supposed to be at home with two embryos inside today, instead i am alone staring at 4 pineapples that I got in advance to help implantation after ET ...


----------



## bettybee1

Tbh - it's sounds like both of your clinics starting you on low dose with high fsh are just stupid. !! 

Electric - your only cd 6 it's completely normal on my last cycle I had 50 follicles they didn't all go mature !!! I started off with just 3 growing till they upped me too 300!!! I started on 225 aswell !!! D


----------



## Briss

Electricat, how is it going? have you had your EC yet?


----------



## Electricat

Yes, got six follies in the end (one smaller one) and we got four mature eggs. My lining is dead as roadkill though so we have to freeze and hope for a better cycle.

Hope you feel better Briss :hugs:


----------



## Briss

Electricat, 4 eggs is fantastic!! well done! are they freezing the eggs or are they going to fertilise them and freeze the embryos?


----------



## Electricat

They will fertilize the eggs and freeze whatever embies come out of that.
FX it will be all four so we have a choice when thawing :xmas19:

Yes, I feel ok about the EC, but my lining just gets me down - my uterus isn't working :cry:

How are you doing Briss - do you see a light in the tunnel yet? :hugs:


----------



## dovkav123

Hello ladies,
I was out of town and couldn't access internet. I was thinking about you every single day. I need to go back many pages and read your updates.
How are you everybody?
Natural cycle IVF again! I did my HCG trigger last night and ER will be on Monday morning in the same clinic. WE found 18mm follicle again on the R side, 9.3 mm uterine lining. Doing retrieval w/o pain killer again.
I didn't follow my anti-inflammatory diet at all this month. I ate lots of protein, high cholesterol foods, less veggies and fruits. I ONly took fish oil, vit E and folic acid.

Electrical, I pray for your succesful eggs fertilisation.
Briss, I am sorry about your bumpy road with IVF. What do you think happened? You wrote that 1 egg O'ed too early. Could you do IUI?


----------



## Briss

dovkav, I am very glad to hear from you! I was wondering where you have been.. very happy you are persevering with natural IVF. keep us updated. fingers crossed!

afm, stim IVF was a huge mistake, I regret it bitterly. Got my AF last night out of the blue. only 11 day LP :( this has never ever happened before even when i had lap my cycle was not screwed like that. these meds really messed up my cycle big time. I nearly lost it yesterday I do not even remember half of what happened I was very close to going properly crazy. Where would i get the strength to carry on I just do not know. I am so upset. I am now thinking that with my natural IVF and chemical, I started spotting on about 10 DPO and if I was not on progesterone it's possible that I would have got AF early just like this cycle and the embryo would not have a chance. there is just something not right with the meds and my body, they do not mix well because I never spot in TWW when i am not on meds.


----------



## dovkav123

Thank you, Briss for support. 
I am so sad that you are going through a tough time. You did everything with supplements and diet to get good results. Your hubby tried to give up beer. Maybe he should quit for 3 months and you should try again in Spring(natural ivf cycle?)

Please read lilsluz first page she had low AMH and high FSH. She got lucky.

https://babyandbump.momtastic.com/p...-26-lilsluz-40-lttc-1-rmc-parl-mthfr-amh.html

So sorry to hear bad news in the end of this year, Briss sending u hugs...2014 is gonna be all of ours year I just know it xx 


We retrieved my egg and waiting for a fertilisation report tomorrow. We're planning to transfer on Wednesday.
Another RE did a procedure and she didn't want my hubby in the room. We were so upset, my hubby complained in the front desk and I refused to sit in the chair till he is next to me. Why this private practice is not consistent with there rules? Finally the nurse gave sterile clothing to my hubby and we were reunited.
Last month I had no problems with another dr. during retrieval. She even didn't mind us filming...

I'll administer Brevactid 1500 IE 3 times a week for better implantation.

The preggo blood test suppose to be on the day of my birthday:), but the office is closed, I'll do it on 23rd.


----------



## Briss

Electricat, any news on your embies and also did they recommend anything for your lining? 

Dovkav, fingers crossed for fertilisation tomorrow!! At my clinic they never let men into the operating room. My Dh was also upset cos he did not know what's going on and what they are doing to me in there, he was worried, bless him. what does Brevactid do?

afm, it all depends on what the urologist is going to say. if there is a way to improve his sperm I do not mind waiting but if not, I'd rather we get on with the next IVf. Obviously, I need to make sure my body has recovered and I am scheduling appointments with other clinics to see what they may suggest considering my FSH. I am going for my follow up tomorrow. So angry with this clinic, not sure how it's going to work out.


----------



## Electricat

Hello again :flower:

I'm still waiting to talk to my doc about what to do with my lining. It annoys me that they're not more "on the ball" with the lining issue because it's just as important as growing an egg or having good sperm!
My doc kinda shrugged and said there is nothing we can do, when infact I read on the net that there IS things you can do such as Viagra, Estrogen and something called washing(?).
It's like they don't want to get in on working the lining and just say "wait and see". Well my periods have been very light for a year (for 15 years before that I had no periods as I had a coil in), so it's not going to just grow because doc tells me to wait and see! :growlmad:
Anyway, I'm waiting for a call from them to have a phone consultation about what to do next.


dovkav123
ER without sedation? Why? That must be torture!!! surely!!?
I was completely out of it and was pretty sore on the side where I had four follies just minutes after coming out of the OR.
I don't know what it must feel like, but don't they have to go through your vagina wall to get to the ovaries?....with a needle? :shrug:

They didn't let OH in the OR at ER with me either, no point as I would be sleeping - and him busy doing his bit in a cup. (it would be different if I was awake though, yes, I would raise hell to have him there!).
They are letting OH's in at transfer though, so I guess the practice has to do with whether or not you are conscious during the procedure.


Good luck to you, dov, hope for a perfect embie :thumbup:
And good luck to you and me too, Briss - seems like IVF has given us a slap in the face so far :nope:


----------



## dovkav123

ER is not a big deal.!!! I was awake during ER and i felt like a bee sting for a sec when the needle poked the ovary. We retrieve only one egg. After procedure I had minimum cramping, got dress and after 1hour my dr. did a control u/s to look if everything ok.

We do have our emby growing nicely and tomorrow at 2pm ET.

Electrical., you did produced eggs and they were all matured. Did you freeeze them? (the cells or embryos?) Your body responds to treatment, why your lining is so lazy? Have you done hysteroscopy? Maybe you need more estrogen?

My dr. prescribed Brevactid it is HCG hormone but higher dose it should help with implantation. Also we'll BD tonight, studies showed that spermies in the uterus can aslo aid implantation.


----------



## Briss

*Electricat*, indeed, quite a slap! I am still recovering...

Actually they may not even know what to do with the lining except for the endo scratch. is there any way you can find a different specialist? I am quite sure it's reversible but it probably requires a lot of work. you are probably doing all the natural stuff as is but I guess some medical intervention might be needed here. Keep us posted 

*dovkav*, wonderful news on fertilisation!! was the egg from your left ovary?


----------



## dovkav123

From right ovary Briss. Poor right ovary got poked 4 times(2 times IVF#1, dr. was hoping to fing an egg)! and the left one 2 times.


----------



## Briss

dovkav, that's good news! you were worried the right ovary was not producing good eggs, now you know that it does!


----------



## Briss

I finally had my follow up appointment. It's all very distressing but I guess it is what it is. As expected, the clinic did not accept any responsibility for poorly managing my cycle, although they were very sorry about how things worked out and offered a tiny discount on our next treatment. As far as they are concerned everything could have turned out differently. The fact that it did not most likely mean my ovaries are not functioning normally. She could not comment on missing my egg as there was no liquid (not sure what that means) it's possible that the follicle was empty and the fact that LH started rising despite being suppressed with meds means ovaries are misbehaving. I personally do not agree. I think my ovaries are great and they did what they are supposed to as soon as they had a mature egg they released it and did not give a monkeys about the meds. I think the clinic should work with my ovaries rather than try to control them. She was puzzled by immature/poor quality eggs that were collected. my bloods were excellent and there was enough estrogen to support at least 4 mature eggs so they were sure I will have good eggs on EC. The embryologist said that the egg did not fertilise due to its poor quality but she said there is no way on knowing this it could have been the sperm or both. She said they did not want to start me off with higher doses of stims as these has been shown to affect egg quality. basically with my ovaries she recommended going back to natural/modified IVF. 

Apparently it's normal to have short LP in a failed IVf cycle. It's to do with having a disbalance between estrogen and progesterone levels. While you are on stims you produce lots of estrogen. during EC they mess up your follicles so the production of progesterone is slightly affected that's why they always supplement your LP with additional progesterone so it balances out lots of estrogen in your body. In a failed cycle where you do not have ET, they do not give any additional progesterone so you simply do not have enough naturally produced progesterone to support normal LP. I guess that explains 11 day LP. She also said it should get back to normal. I really hope so. She also said that my spotting in TWW in the natural/modified cycle was most likely to do with failing implantation rather than not having enough progesterone.


----------



## dovkav123

I am sorry about your appointment. I am glad you complained and got a discount for the next time.
Your follicle didn't have fluid?What was the size of the follicle? If it ovulated, then the follicle had to shrink. When my egg was not found, the follicle was big..and had fluid...
My new RE didn't do any blood tests before ER, she rely on the growth of the follicle. The only blood trest I'll do on the 23rd of December.

Why don't you come to Germany and do a natural IVF. I have a feeling you'll be lucky. Your basal temp is great, your FF chart looks great. You need to come on CD8. You need to take 6 days off from work. Then go home and do your preggo test 14 days later.

I had a very stress free ET. 100% sure RE did it right, I saw a bubble and a catheter on U/S. She tried two catheters w/o embrio. The second one she liked better.
Our embryo is 4 cell B grade, didn't get a photo, we should of asked earlier.
First time I am taking progesterone vaginally 200mg a day. It's no fun!


----------



## bettybee1

Sorry briss :( glad you have had ur app tho !! 

I don't agree with what they say about the short lutuel phase with ivf because like I said before my first too cycles I bleed at 10dpo meaning my lp 9dpo far too short !!!! 
Just the day of transfer about 5dpo my symptoms all went meaning that my estrogen had crashed ! Estrogen is very important in getting pregnant & avoiding some mcs ! 

Obviously my 3 rd cycles and am now pregnant ! This is due too the meds after EC nothing else !! Because this time aswell I had a 2 day transfer instead of the 3day & 5day I had last time :) xxx


----------



## Briss

dovkav, congratulations on being PUPO!! fingers crossed your lovely embryo is growing and getting comfortable for the next 9 months. We are thinking about Germany actually cos the prices are so different from the UK. The first stop is to get hubby checked by the urologist to see if we can improve his SA and for me to recover my cycle from all the stim madness&#8230; 

bettybee, thank you. I remember what you said and that's why I asked them about it cos it did look similar to your situation. I really do not know what to make of what she said. I asked before we started the cycle about estrogen after EC but they said no cos they only use it with a different protocol and apparently they try not to use it at all in TWW because it affects male embryos. I had to rely on what they told me. I will be asking about it in different clinics to see if somebody can explain it better. 

afm, My Af is totally out of order. It's usually more like brown spotting by CD5 and over on CD6. it's Cd 6 today and it's still full on bright red and a lot of it&#8230; I am so worried. is it going to stop? does not look like it


----------



## bettybee1

Hmmm that's total bollocks that it effects make embyros ! :/ gosh your clinic sounds like they need a punch ! 

Most clinics around the world use estrogen as proctcol after ec ! And then nearly every clinic uses estrogen when a women is a certain age etc. 

I really think you should try and find a different clinic Hun !dont worry your af will stop mine were very heavy after my failed cycles xxx


----------



## dovkav123

Briss, please don't worry about your long period. Let your body heal from IVF a month or two and I am sure that your period will go back to normal. 


I am 2dpo2dt I am not on the bed rest. Doing everything what feels right. We Even BD this cycle, hopefully spermies will help the embie mature. 
The day of ET I felt tiny uterine contraction
A day later a lit more activity around uterus.
These uterine contractions I had with failed IVF. Feeling pesimistic today.
Yesterday I did an HCG shot Brevactid and will do 2 more this week. It should help implantation. Dr. google said that HCG after ET helps with immunity response. Also on the drug slip I read that HCG helps to increase sperm quality.
Also pregnancy rate increases when HCG hormone is administered to the uterus before ET. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANZ-BzHqHrA

https://www.fertstert.org/article/S0015-0282(11)02619-7/abstract

Enjoy Friday 13th, the lucky one!


----------



## dovkav123

Cramping on 2dt4dpo. Could it be implantaton?
I am avoiding food that causes intestinal problems. Cramping could be one of the symptom:wacko:


----------



## Briss

dovkav, I wonder why your temp dropped so much. implantation dip? I had AF type cramping with my natural cycle but I think implantation was more like localised type of pain. Really hard to say but so far so good. fingers crossed!


----------



## dovkav123

Briss, 
I don't do FF anymore. I just right my temps in the book. 
I am 2dt7dpo and I feel cramping every evening. I am taking vaginal progesterone 200mg, maybe that could cause the symptoms? I am not putting my hopea too high and trying to stay calm during tough father's in-law's illness.

How are you feeling?
I am so releaved that your period got lighter and going to the end. It is really odd and unussual to you. Body heals really well and fast and you'll see next month everything will be OK:hugs:


----------



## Briss

dovkav, thanks! I really hope this cycle is going to work for you. 

I am on Cd12 and still spotting! i was taking antibiotics this cycle in case i had endometritis but it does not seem to be helping. We finally had an appointment with our urologist and unfortunately it is more serious we thought because his SA goes up and down but never reaches normal levels so clearly lifestyle changes are not going to make any difference. The urologist said that usually there is an underlying reason why this happens. This cannot be caused by an obstruction because obstruction is characterised by low SA volumes, high PH and it never fluctuates it only goes down while DH's SA volumes are always around 2-6, PH is normal and the count fluctuates. The other major potential problem is genetic. If there is a genetic issue it will affect the sperm cos it will make the dna unstable and the embryo not viable. I understand there is nothing that can be done. SA will never improve whatever you do. the fact that I had chemical may also indicate that if the sperm had this chromosomal abnormality it made the embryo unstable so basically there is only way for us is to improve the math i.e. to have stim IVF to get many eggs and observe embryos in the lab for longer to pick the good one for ET. unfortunately I had to tell him that with my FSH this is not an option for us. we could only do natural IVf and he said in our case natural IVF does not increase our odds compared to TTC naturally. So basically this is the end of the road. We may get lucky or we may not.

If Dh's genetic test comes back as normal then he said we could try and increase his numbers by throwing ever known treatment at poor DH. The urologist said there is no point in wasting money on any more tests and it's more practical to just go through and try treatments including antibiotics (there is a possibility of some infections being undetected), tricking DH's body into producing more testosterone etc. To be honest when I went there I was hoping he will suggest just that and I just was not ready for the genetic thing. he said he understands the despair but it is what it is and we need to know it because he sees men getting their women pregnant naturally with DH's low numbers and because it's been 3.5 years and nothing, it makes him feel that there is a reason.

We did the blood chromosomes/kary (or karyotype) test but it may take 1-4 weeks to get the results. It's getting more and more depressing with every day


----------



## Electricat

Oh, Briss - I'm so sorry. You brought tears to my eyes :nope:
I feel for you, girl :hugs:

What will you do? Will you accept the verdict and go on to fill your life with other things and hope one at some point will stick? (It has happened!)
Or will you look into donor and go that route?


You must feel so sad right now, I hope your OH is supportive to you through this.

:flower:


----------



## dovkav123

Oh, Briss!
What a sad note. I am so sorry.
Be supportive to your hubby. Be patient with him. Men are more sensitive about their weekness.
I hope agressive antibiotic treatment will help your hubby.
I pray and hope that 2014 will be our year of happines and joy!


----------



## Briss

dovkav, have you had your beta results? any symptoms? I so hope this is it for you!!


----------



## bettybee1

Yeah do- hope everything has gone good x


----------



## Briss

Electricat, how is it going? have you had any luck finding out how to improve your lining? 

I am still feeling rather low but patiently waiting for the genetic testing to come through (looks like second half of Jan more likely). I am educating myself on various genetic conditions and trying to figure out the options, also talking to ladies whose DH's had abnormal results. It's all very complex and I do not quite understand it all yet. I cannot stop TTC until i have my children that's all i know.


----------



## dovkav123

Wishing us all a very merry Christmas and i hope its the last Christmas that see's us childless and that by next Christmas we will be mummies or pregnant. This time of year is so hard but lets enjoy this time and keep hopeful for a fantastic new year xxxx 


I didn't go for my beta on the 23rd.
Tomorrow is the day when my period should show up. However progesterone supplements may delay it. I'll do my HPT in the morning and let you know.


----------



## Briss

Ladies, Merry Christmas. wishing you all BFPs, H&H 9 months and beautiful and healthy babies next year! 

dovkav, best of luck with your testing. keep us posted.


----------



## subaru555

Good luck for your test in the morning xx


----------



## dovkav123

Subaru, thank you so much for support and stopping by my thread.
I am so sorry for your son loss, It's truly unfair that we must deal with so much Heartache!!! 

I did 3 HPT and they all BFN. I am still on progesterone and I have tiny spotting. On Monday I'll do my beta for a double check and a final closure.


----------



## Briss

Subaru, i am so sorry to hear about your loss. what a terrible tragedy, I am truly sorry you have to live through this. 

dovkav, really sorry about your BFN, I was hoping to hear some good news. what DPO are you now? could it be too early? do you have a follow up app with the clinic? this is your 3rd transfer, I am thinking there might be implantation issues. have you had your uterus checked? maybe hysteroscopy? Also, I think your blocked tubes have not been confirmed? maybe you could do HSG and if they are open you do not even need IVF cos you have good sperm. Sorry maybe I am not very helpful just trying to through in some ideas. I just think there might be something going on that's actually preventing the conception.


----------



## dovkav123

19dpo2dt is today.

Yes, Briss I want to take a break from IVF. Someone tells me for two months now that I should Do HSG and try for a natural on January. 
1.Logic thinking, let me know if I am right. Ovarian punctures and I had 6 of them, the thickness and the force of the needle, can it break apart my scars from the ovary and tube? Could it be that my ovaries are in good possition now and my tubes are loose and when the egg is dropped it travels to the tube?
During one egg retreival I felt really hard that my ovary moved when the needle went in...
Could it be that I need only to flush my tubes?

2.If i have implantation problem, this theory won't help. 
Maybe taking out my egg and fertilising in the tube, and bringing back to uterus, my body recognise this embryo as a stranger. Maybe I have a media reaction to the liquid were embryo is delivered to my uterus.
I do have acne which goes crazy when I eat sugar. Not fruit, not carbs. Only Refined sugar. Acne is a sign of bodies inflammation. I am on anti-inflamm. diet and no sugar diet...But this Christmas I ate lots of cookies and I don't have any acne. Vaginal progesterone, I beleave is helping. I guess preganancy will cure my acne.

3.I have never tried to conceive naturally with progesterone supplement. I was a lit bit low in my LH faze before.


----------



## Briss

1. I think HSG is the best idea and it will tell you whether your tubes are open and also if there is anything in your uterus that may prevent implantation. 

I personally do not think IVF and puncturing ovaries can do any good to anyone. I look at it as some sort of damage that we voluntary incur because we tried everything else except for IVF and nothing else worked. I just accepted it as necessary evil. 

2. implantation problems are very different: it can be something in your uterus or immune issues. HSG should reveal if anything is not right with your lining but you would need steroids if you have any immune issues. 

i personally do not think that anti-inflamm. diet or no sugar diet or any other "lifestyle change" makes any difference to fertility. If you had a totally wrong lifestyle like was a smoker, drunk lots of alcohol and ate fast food all the time and then suddenly changed it to fruit and veg etc that would certainly improve your chances but as far as I know you are already very healthy so none of it matters in my view. I am sorry if I sound negative it's just that I've done years of healthy fertility living and am now finally coming to terms with the fact that it did not bring us any closer to having a baby.

3. if your LH is shorter than 12 days without progesterone or if you have spotting in TWW, it might make sense to take synthetic progesterone. You could also do 21 day blood test to check you most recent levels if you are not sure. I personally hated synthetic progesterone, side effects were quite bad.


----------



## Electricat

Hello, girls - sorry I've not replied. I have house guests and haven't been able to go online.
Belated Merry Christmas and Happy NY to you all =)

Dov...sorry it didn't work :cry: You must feel numb by now. I really hope you are able to keep your spirit up and not give up. :hugs:
Since I'm struggling with my lining I want to ask how thick yours was at ET...if it was plump and fine it goes to show that I'm not out of the woods if I just get my lining up. :wacko:
Darn little beans don't abide to our wishes! :growlmad:

I'm starting down regging on CD21 (in 5 days). Then I will do Progynova until lining is thick enough.
:coffee: I really have no faith in this..only because Dr. Google has not given me any good results from it. All I've found online is that the Progynova pills didn't work towards lining.
The nurse at the clinic was very positive and all but guaranteed it would work, but she don't know my history (which is the bit that annoys me about the place - they don't know who they're talking to and seem to give a standard protocol to their patients, not adapted to individual needs).
After she told me about how this would work, she asked me if I had a lining problem ---- I was like, What? She didn't know I had a lining problem??

Sigh - I will do it anyway, since it will be my only chance. If nothing happens to my lining we will just have to dispose of our four frozen babies because we are not continuing after this :nope:

There is one thing I'm thinking about though, all though it's probably nothing to worry about. What if we happened to do it naturally this cycle? (I haven't temped because of travelling and house guests, so I don't know my DPO, but we have BD'd). I'm starting DR shots on CD21 - too early for a HPT to show...so if I am, are the shots harmful to a potential pregnancy?
They didn't tell us to abstain...

Oh, well - back to the house guests.

Ladies.. :flower:


----------



## dovkav123

I am sorry about your lining, electrical. Maybe your treatment should take longer than a month to see the good results. If that won't work, how about surrogate?
My lining is always good. CD8 is 8mm, during ET 11mm.
I had hysteroscopy in June, everything was fine.
I still think maybe the sperm is not perfect chromosomally? Aging does a lot, 50 y/o has more exposure to oxidative stress, enviromental radiation, compare to 30y/o. Still they may not be healthy. after centrifuge his sperm was 7mil, motility 30%, 5% morfology. 

I found this on website "Shape is important because it correlates with the sperm's genetic content. A higher number of misshapen sperm equals a greater potential for genetic abnormalities." I guess this confirms that my hubbies sperm could be still OK the average morfology should be 4%.

Briss,
Have you checked your hubbies testosterone levels? It has lots of to do with sperm counts and sex.
drive. is he on antibiotics? How about his prostate tests?


My LH is always 16-17 long, but I have had spottings before my period. My progesterone was 8.6 on CD21, they want to see it 10. Old clinic told me it's OK. The new one diagnosed me with corpus lutheal deficiency. And RE told me it is not enough to treat a second part of the cycle with progesterone. You need to treat an entire cycle. She was suprised to see my mature eggs after ER without any treatment.
I chose IVF cos we never knew how long we'll stay in Germany. I wanted to get preggo faster and the prices are reasonable here. We wanted to leave earlier, but my father in-law got sick and he passed away a week ago, and we still don't know what we are doing next...
Still spotting today and going for a blood test..


----------



## dovkav123

My AF came in the evening after the blood test. Even I was on the progesterone. Estrogen was 65, progesterone 5. 
My beta .6
My eyes are too dry to cry, really, I feel numb and cold. 
My hubby just wants to try again.
I want to take a break from IvF.
Check my uterus with a contrast dye. Support LF with progesterone. And just BD.....

I talked to my friend, she succeeded her 4th IVF with FET, assitant hatching and heparin. 
Maybe we should try one more time with heparin.

I am calling my RE for a short talk tomorrow.

I didn't go for beta for nothing...
I also checking my folic acid levels.
APA- antiphospholipid antibody has to do with endo
APS- antiphospholipid syndrome also has to do with a blood clot disorder

Ladies, cheers for a New Year! I deserve a drink or more!
Briss, you're on 2ww. You still can have a glass. I hope you'll have good news soon. Hope and pray.


----------



## dovkav123

Electrical,
I found info how to improve endometrium

Treatment of thin endometrium
To improve uterine blood flow which may boost endometrial development, low-dose aspirin (Weckstein et al., 1997) and vaginal sildenafil (Sher and Fisch, 2002) were suggested in cases of RIF with thin endometrium. Many freeze all embryos when the endometrium is less than 7 mm and transfer them after stimulation with high-dose estrogens. Vaginal administration of micronized estradiol to maximize estrogenic effect (Tourgeman et al., 2001) or antifibrotic treatment with pentoxifylline and high-dose vitamin E (Ledee-Bataille et al., 2002) has been shown to increase PR in cases with a thin endometrium.

https://humrep.oxfordjournals.org/content/21/12/3036.full


----------



## Briss

Happy New year, ladies! i hope 2014 will bring us that we desire.

*Electricat*, lining is not everything but if we could get your lining to 11-13 mm it will improve your chances dramatically. I do not know much about Progynova unfortunately but I am sure there must be something that can help. I totaly share your frustration when docs do not bother to read your history. when I showed up for EC and there was only one follicle on the left it almost felt like I was making it up that there must be two and only after EC the doc read my history and confirmed that one egg must have ovulated early :( and it does seem like they do not learn from the previous failed cycle that i tend to O early. anyway, thinking about it makes me angry and I am determined to stay calm cos who knows what's ahead I need my sanity. 

it makes me sad to read that you want to dispose of your four frozen babies if nothing works out this cycle. lining is a serious problem and I doubt very much that one cycle can fix it. I think you need a serious treatment which may take a few months. I might be wrong but I also doubt IVF clinic can solve this problem. I would think it needs to be a specialised doc outside of IVF world. It's a gynecological problem. But let's see if Progynova can do the trick first.

*dovkav*, it's really hard to say what the problem is. if your DH's sperm has chromosomal abnormality you would have at least one chemical or mc I think. of cause at 50 sperm quality is not great but your DH has a very good count and morphology so he must still have some very goods ones in there. you are right, the average morfology should be at least 4%. we had chemical with my DH's morphology of 1%...

My Dh's bloods were:

FSH 2.6 (normal)
LH 3.2 (normal)
testosterone 18.1 (normal)
SHBG 71 (high, normal is 16-55)
testosterone/SHBG ratio 25.5 (lower side of normal)
prolactin 207 (normal)

The urologist said his hormones were normal but clearly SHBG is outside the normal range I am so hoping that's the reason for low sperm count and that his genetic testing will come back normal. 

The urologist did not think my DH has any obstruction so as long as we can rule out any genetic issues he could try and get hubby on various random treatments in the hope that something will work. 

I am very sorry about your negative beta and AF. your progesterone dropped while you were still on synthetic progesterone. I know it happens a lot in IVF cycle but it's so surprising. I has spotting but my AF did not come until I stopped synthetic progesterone. but than I was only 17 DPO. 

what does heparin do?

I had quite a few glasses this TWW because after seeing the urologist it just became clear that we do not stand a chance on our own. his most recent test came with 0% morphology and DH carries on with his beer :( it's hopeless. he promised he will stop in the new year though.


----------



## bettybee1

Dov- am
Sorry about your cycle are you not wiling too make more eggs !? 

I know your embies were good on day2 but a lot of the time they stop growing after day3 that's why blasts are good :) 

You have had 3 transfers through your ivfs so that's like 1.5 with normal ivf right ? 

I still think your in with a winning chance but natural ivf can take a lot longer !

I would defo maybe increase progestrone take estrogen & 75mg aspirin maybe not heprin straight away unless u have problem ! 


Curious how much money does natural ivf cost where u live x


----------



## cali_kt

Hi Dov!! :hi: I made it over!! I think I may need to move to Germany. :rofl: Over here in the states...it is ridiculous!!!


----------



## DBZ34

dovkav- I'm sorry IVF didn't work for you this time. I'm also sorry for your loss. I read up there that your father-in-law passed away recently. :hugs: I hope you and your DH are doing well. 

I can understand why you want to take a break. Do what you need to do. TTC is so hard. I'm glad you're continuing to get things tested to find answers. I so want this for you. I hope 2014 will be your year! :hugs:


----------



## dovkav123

Briss, tough time is for you now. I am sorry. AF came again. I am very proud of you that you're staying strong and give super attention to your hubby.
You did find some problems in your hubbies blood work, I hope urologist will find a treatment.
"Heparin is not only anticoagulant. it is involved in the adhesion of blastocyst to the endometriumepithelium and subsequent invasion"( Fiedler and Wurfel 2001)

DBZ,
I am wishing a sticky year also. I know a healthy eggy is waiting for us all!

bettybee, 
I am not ready for more eggs yet. I really need to find out about my implantation problem. If I have 3 blasts and if they don't take it, I'll be scared emotionally and physically.
Endometrium Biopsy? Transfer one blast? Assisted hatching.
My antiphospholipid syndrome results came back negative.
Sometimes i wished to have a positive test or even a miscarriage in order to get treatment and go forward.
Maybe I have some kind of genetic defect in my firtility. My sister, my cousin and my grandfather's two siblings didn't have children. If we dig deep enough we may find the reason.
Natural IVF is reasonable here. In previous clinic I have paid 425 euros in the new one 1000 euros.

cali_kit, thanks for stopping by. If you're interested I can recommend you a clinic here in Germany. First I want to get lucky..I couldn't find you on facebook. Can you invite me?


----------



## Briss

*dovkav*, I hope you do not have any genetic issues but you can do a blood test that can show any chromosomal defects that may effect fertility and rule that out if you are worried. it's possible that the problem is with your DH, even though his sperm appears to be fine it may be chromosomally abnormal due to age so the embryo just stops growing after a while and do not even get to implantation stage. Your DH could do DNA fragmentation test.

Our urologist did say that with DH's sperm we should do stimulated IVf to increase our odds (provided genetic tests comes back normal) but with my high FSH it does not seem possible.


----------



## dovkav123

Briss,
What kind of genetic tests your DH did? (So pleased that they're normal)

Sperm DNA fragmentation is a very good idea. It is treated with changing lifestyle, freq. ejaculation, antioxidants, selenium and zinc.

Also karyotyping is another option, you can find out about chromosomal abnormalities, heredity disease with a blood test.

DQmatch partial share is OK, ussually 90% of the couples have it
Complete match with elevated NK cells 10% is very bad, no pregnancy possible.


----------



## Briss

we did karyotyping testing. We have not received the results yet. I am just hoping they are normal. it's taking ages to get the result, we should know either way next week. 

our urologist did not recommend doing DNA fragmentation for DH cos he had 0% morphology, he said it's only going to depress us&#8230; he needs to quit beer and carry on with vitamins but ultimately his count was never above 10-12 mil


----------



## dovkav123

I just did my HcG trigger shot and on Friday is an ER.
We talked to my RE today and she thinks that we havn't had a good embryo yet. She offers stimulated IVF gonad-f 150, we should see around 10 eggs.
Our strategy for this cycle for better implantation. Cos I think implantation is the problem.
1. Transfer 3 day embryo with assisted hatching with laser.(my clinic don't do it with blastocysts but in US, yes)
2. Injection of seminal plasma on the day of embryo transfer
3. Heparin or aspirin
4. Decepyphyl is GnH antigonist 5th day after ET.
5. BD after ET.
6. HCG inject in the uterus after ET.

We talked about those posibilities and we need to decide which treatments to take or maybe all!!!
Also we took couple of blood tests 1. vitD 2. anti-thyroid antibodies (exposer to radiation can be at fault)
Anti-phosholipid syndrome testing came back negative. 

natural killer cell test in the uterus my previous clinic is doing a study about and they didn't do biopsy during hysteroscopy

RE told me we can do all those expensive tests; postives won't guarantee that that's the problem. Genetic testing would tell high or low chances of becoming a parents.

transfering 2 day or 3 day embryos doesn't tell us much about embryo quality or implantantion problem. When we transfer blastocysts great quality, and they won't take, than we can discuss implantation problem


----------



## DBZ34

Are you going to do a stimulated cycle like your RE suggests, dovkav? Or are you going to keep sticking to the natural IVF? 

I've read that 35% of women who have assisted hatching are successful and now that you've mentioned it, I've read up on seminal plasma. It seems like implantation rates are higher when seminal plasma is introduced. Very interesting. 

I probably wouldn't do everything if I were you, but I look forward to hearing what you end up going with. I hope it helps that eggy implant and snuggle in for the next 9 months. :)


----------



## dovkav123

We are doing a natural IVf again.
I beleave in heaparin, clexane 20mg and my hubby beleaves in assited hatching. Plasma introduction to my cervix we'll leave it up to my RE.(Is it like BD?) Sperm swims in and the fluid hangs around.


----------



## MoBaby

Dovkav so sorry your cycle failed! i am sorry to hear this. I really hope this next cycle gives you your bfp. I know you know the natural IVF has a lower success rate than full IVF. I know you havent wanted to do the full ivf cycle but I think if this 6th cycle does not give you your BFP then your next step should be the low gonal f stims. The problem is with natural IVF is there is no selection going on as to which ones are good, bad, okay. When you only have 1 to work with all you can do is take it out, fertilize the egg, and get it back when it shows signs of fertilization. I know many women get bfps with just one egg fertilized from ivf so its not impossible. But when you have more embryos to choose from the best ones can be used and give you the most chances for success. And just from experience when you have extras done like assisted hatching the charge is the same for 1 embryo or 5 or whatever the clinics cutoff. 

Out of all the extras you have listed I personally would recommend the intrauterine HCG at transfer and the aspirin. Heparin is not good to use if you have no indicated reason and so far testing proves you dont need a blood thinner but aspirin may be helpful. You would need to start it soon because it takes several days to have an effect. BD after transfer is not recommended because if you orgasm it can increase the risk of ectopic pregnancy but BD the day before ET can help as it puts the semen in there and there is some correlation between positive outcome and bding night before transfer. My clinic says no BD from time of transfer until a HB is seen or AF comes. Some of the other things I haven't heard of like antagonist after ET. 
I think you should consider doing a full IVF cycle and get to blast stage before you can determine exactly what is going on. And also assess if your embryos are capable of going that far. I hope you get your BFP and dont have to go to the route of a full IVF! Good luck tomorrow!! FX for you.


----------



## dovkav123

Thank you Mobaby for a advice.
Before doing stimulated IVF, I'll do one for sure. I really want to know if we have any chance. I want to do as many tests as possible. 
1. genetic karyotyping for both of us
2. dna sperm fragmentation test
3. DQ match

My RE doesn't want us to spend money on tests, because they are not proven or 100%, but I want to be save than sorry, my health is the most importnant and is priceless...

I know the results are not 100%, you still can have healthy kids with a bad genetic screening.
My grandfather's 2 siblings didn't have children, also my cousin(she) and my sister are childless. Maybe something running in the family...?

my thyroid antibody tests were OK.
my vit D test result is little low 26, should be 30-60. Even I take 1000IU a day.

Maybe we should rest for 3 months and let the sperm and eggs to grow and hopefully they will be healthier. Cos the last few months were very stressful to us. Lack of sleep and emotional family time. My hubby's dad was sick and we took care of him. He passed away, we'll live more at ease now.


----------



## MoBaby

Are you bit going to be able to transfer? If not im sorry :(

The fragmentation test is a waste I would say. Dh seems to have good sperm so usually good sperm don't need further testing. 

Also karotyping probably won't help.. It will only tell you if all your chromosomes are normal or not. What you should consider is genetic testing embryos instead of you and dh as genetic testing the embryos is what is going to give you a higher chance. Clinics only usually karotype if say dh has low/no speem or a reason. You can do genetic screening for things like fragile x, cystic fibrosis etc which will tell you and dh if you carry anything. Then you can know your chances if you both have something come up which is probably unlikely. Dq match I briefly looked up and I don't think for you guys it's an issue because your eggs fertilize with dh sperm and start dividing.

Here's waft I would do in your shoes 

Full stim ivf
Icsi all eggs although dh has good sperm
Ask about endometrial scratch biopsy cycle before transfer
Genetic test embryos
Transfer normal embryos in either frozen cycle or same cycle

This will give you and dh your best chances at successful ivf. 

Hope my opinion doesn't offend you. I've just done this so many times I've learned a lot and researched a lot with what works and doesn't etc.


----------



## dovkav123

Mobaby, 
I thank you so much for your advice. No ET for us:(
We are interested in stimulated IVF and now our job is to pick the best clinic In Europe or USA. We should rest and recharge for a couple of months. Spring time, sunshine, vitamins will give us emtional strenth.
We do need to test embryo for chromosomes I think it's called PGD.
Endometrium scratch is a good idea too.
We don't have any genetic deseases in the family, maybe genetic testing would be a waste.

Briss, how are you?
I was looking for a fertility clinic in USA and I found this info:
"Some fertility centers don't allow women to try IVF with their own eggs if their level of follicle stimulating hormone (FSH) is over 10. FSH, produced by the pituitary gland, causes eggs to mature; a high level of it, measured on the third day after menstruation begins, may indicate that few eggs are left in the ovaries.

But physicians at University Fertility Consultants routinely take patients whose FSH is up to 15. In a recent study of 350 women over age 35, they found that the clinical pregnancy rate for women with FSH levels of 10 to 15 was about 33% -- below the 42% pregnancy rate when a patient's FSH is under 7, but still pretty good. "My overall success rates are lower because about 25% of the women in my caseload have high FSH levels," says the center's director, Kenneth Burry, M.D. "But I don't feel comfortable referring patients for egg donation when they have a reasonable chance of success using their own.""


----------



## Briss

We had a follow up appointment with our urologist and the good news is that our karyotype testing came back fine, no genetic issues, all chromosomes are in place - what a relief! I was so worried.

based on Dh's test results and particularly lower testosterone, the doc suggested the following treatment:

(i)	increasing the count: FSH. There are three possible options for taking FSH: 1. tamoxifen, 20 mg/day for 30 days, which is what DH was prescribed; 2. some other anti-estrogen, forgot the name but basically it's only for overweight men; 3. Clomid, but the doc said this is too aggressive and may increase the testosterone too much and shut the system off completely; 

(ii)	improving the quality/morphology: antioxidants i.e. proxeed.

The doc was very clear that the above treatment may increase his count by 30-40% but it will not necessarily lead to pregnancy. We need to check DH's blood in 6 weeks to check that testosterone and FSH are rising and if everything is OK we will repeat SA in 3 months and then consider another IVF. Our urologist suggested stim IVF to improve the odds and did not recommend natural IVF. When I tried to explain that natural worked better for us because of my high FSH (at least we had a chemical pregnancy while with stim cycle we did not have any fertilasation), he kind of hinted that our clinic may not have been the best place for a stim IVF. 

DH started the treatment last night but 3 months seems like ages.


----------



## dovkav123

Briss,
You are doing everything right, you are doing everything super!
Infertility is treatable!
You are going forward step by step. You'll need a little bit more patients.
Genetic tests came back normal. Congrats!
You have lots of options for your DH treatment. Start with one meds and see how he improves.
Is the proxeed a prescription med?
I started a new thread, if you wish, please read 


https://babyandbump.momtastic.com/p...103461-heavy-metal-poisoning-infertility.html

My hubby has silver teeth fillings and I am afraid of mercury vapors leaking to his brain and body. I have never talked about it with my RE. 
I found very interesting info about heavy metals.
We live in the old home, the water pipes I am sure has copper or lead. WE do filter our water. Old paint has lead also.
We are doing lead, mercury and cadmium tests on Monday.

Karyotype test will be next. I have some childless relatives in my family. I need to know. The prices here are more reasonable than in US.

I hope you'll enjoy a wonderful time with your family this weekend!


----------



## dovkav123

Stimulated IVF in Germany is out for me. You have to pick the best eggs and others freeze. So 2 eggs fertilise and look great, but on the day 5th they arrest, and you have nothing left.
My clinic can never tell if my egg is the best. Only during ICSI RE can tell about it cos RE removes covering from the egg. During IVF you shouldn't remove the cover cos sperm will not find the way!(interesting)
In Germany there are strict laws about the German Embryo Protection Act of 1990 forbids the selection of embryos. This means that all human eggs being produced in the course of one IVF-cycle may only be fertilized for a later transfer back to the mother's uterus. Therefore the doctors have to select the 'best' eggs already on the day of fertilization when the male and female nuclei have not melted to one, yet. Should there be more than 3 eggs, they can be frozen (cryopreservation) and used for another, later attempt. However it's very hard to decide on the eggs with the best chances at such an early state. In Austria or the Chech Republic (for example) the legal situation is much better. There all eggs can be fertilized and cultivated until blastocyst stadium (5th day after fertilization). Only then the decision for the 'best' embryo has to be made. Should there be more than three, the others still can be cryopreserved.
I don't like this law. It doesn't give me high success chances.


----------



## dovkav123

please read this info about men and women fertility and Vit D

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22275473


----------



## MoBaby

The laws seem really strict over there! But I dont think you should take stimulated IVF off the table. Have you had a hsg to make sure tubes are open? i see in your signature re suspects tubes blocked from scarring but is this a fact? if not then maybe you should have a hsg to see if they are. if not then maybe you could try iui with mild stims or clomid since dh has good sperm this may give you good chances? You probably have but I just did not see it. What other options are you considering?


----------



## dovkav123

I'd like to try my IVF in USA. That's were I live. Technology seems to be more updated there and the statistics are higher too.

I have never checked my tubes. It does drive me crazy!
We did hysteroscopy in June.

My first RE told me to do Lap and she was suprised that I came back to her with a request to check my tubes. Well, she agreed to do it with a grumpy face. :haha:She beleaved that if my tubes were clear or would clear up, my tubes from appendix or endo could be damaged, scarred and only lap could clean all up.
So we didn't check my tubes cos RE couldn't get into my cervix, she ruined 3 catheters and she stated this was her first bad experience during this procedure. I never came back to her....

Now I am starting to think, if we havn't found a healthy embryo yet, maybe my tubes are fine, just fertilised egg doesn't grow or implant further. If this is correct, we could try naturally with IUI.

Maybe I should shoot for my tube check up after my AF.

Mobaby, 
your big bean looks so cool on this photo!


----------



## MoBaby

Yes in US there are hardly any restrictions on IVF. We have guidelines on embry transfer but no rules so basically whatever the RE thinks goes. The only problem here is the IVF cost is so expensive. And natural IVF isnt usually done. What part of US are you from?

I definitely think you need to check your tubes because there are conditions that can affect IVF success from your tubes like if there is fluid on them. 

I had a lap and not too bad. They can check your tubes then and if there is scarring around them causing them to be blocked can potentially remove it. My RE did a dye test during my lap and saw my 1 tube is open (unfortunately my right tube had to be removed because of a congenital abnormality). 

my profile pic is the last ultrasound we had about a month ago. it was the best pic we got as baby isnt very cooperative about getting pic taken. but I love the babys little face and cant wait to meet him/her :)


----------



## dovkav123

I am from san francisco bay area. Colorado and New york clinics are OK. I am willing to travel. IN Los angeles area they do a natural IVF and it is a research project, and it cost 7000. 
You went through soo much pain during IVF treatment. Little angels will be missed...
Why did you succeed with a 3rd try? 
Did you finaly find your healthy embryo?


----------



## MoBaby

we actually did 6 tries... 3 fully stimulated IVF cycles. The first 2 resulted in great embryos but only 2 at day 5 and there were some but they were not able to be frozen due to poor quality. Our 3rd fully stimulated cycle we were lucky and got 6 blasts. We froze 4. The first MC was tested at a speciality lab where they had to mail the material off...Nothing was found. Perfect little girl. The second miscarriage we sent it to the local lab and nothing was found. Perfect little girl. Two cycles were chemical pregnancies where I had a positive HPT but the beta was way to low and AF came shortly after expected. Our last FET was transfer of two embryos, one which had been frozen twice! But they both thawed perfectly and we must have found the perfect embryo. The way it was explained to me that the bad sperm makes bad embryos and there is no way to tell without doing the genetic testing. Some will make it, some will be babies, some will stop developing, some with miscarry. So if we every went through it again we would opt to do a very aggressive protocol with genetic diagnosing the embryos (if 5 or more) then transfer on a fet. 

I had all the testing in the book, genetic test, karyotyping, blood clotting disorders, thyroid, diabetes, the works. Nothing. I am a perfectly helathy female. 

DH had all the testing in the books. Nothing. Karotype normal, genetic screening normal, no other issues. Just hardly any sperm- mainly due to issues he had as a child. Unfortunately he makes hardly enough sperm but just enough for ICSI (we get anywhere from 25 sperm per sample to 500,000; average around 100). 

The cycle where we had success I had an endometrial scratch biopsy the cycle before. We checked the blood flow to my uterus and it is perfect. I tried aspirin in previous cycle and it resulted in a chemical so I didnt do that. Basically, we had the transfer, ate a milkshake after, bed rest for 2 days, then went on with my normal life. I had HCG shots three times to boost the progesterone but other than that no other medications. I ovulated on my own and went in shortly after ovulation, had the embryos thawed and tranferred. It was a very easy cycle. My theory is I actually ovulate before the OPK detects my LH surge so I was obsessively testing for my ovulation and when it was almost positive I called the clinic and sure enough I had ovulated. So instead of transferring on day 6 after positive LH surge I went in on day 5 (since the test was almost positive but not just yet). But it worked and can't believe we are having a baby soon! 

Sorry that is a long answer!!


----------



## Briss

*dovkav*, proxeed is just multi vitamins. I got it from amazon https://www.amazon.co.uk/NEW-PROXEE...e=UTF8&qid=1390221895&sr=8-1&keywords=proxeed

Ingredients are here https://www.proxeed.com/ingredients.asp

I do not think it's any better than what I was giving to my DH but there were some tests done and there is proof that this complex works. DH is happy to take it cos it's dissolvable powder and is easier than swallowing tonnes of large pills. 

I have seen your new thread on metal poisoning. I looked into this in the past but to be honest I do not think this is something DH and I can have control over. We filter our water but what else is there you can do about your water? Bottled water is not any better actually. Neither of us has silver/metal teeth fillings as far as I know and other than that I think any effect is minimal. (yes I did read all these wonderful stories about people TTC for ever and then changing their metal fillings and getting pregnant immediately; good for them but I do not think this is the whole story) We may have old paint who knows but I think pollution etc have some effect but it's not a determining factor; there are other issues here that have a direct and far more reaching affect on fertility. I gave up on "lifestyle" changes because (i) I wasted too much time on this already and it had no effect whatsoever and (ii) most people who get pregnant with no difficulty are very unhealthy and exposed to the same negative environmental issues as we are but it does not stop them. 

If I am completely frank, I think our main issue is age. and in your case it's most likely your DH's age. I know that his SA is wonderful but most likely a lot of his sperm is chromosomally abnormal due to age. going through stims and getting to blastostage is probably the only way to find out but even than it's not a guarantee but at least you will have a choice of what embryos to put back in. I regret I did not follow my FS' advice and did not do stim IVF two years ago while my FSH was still OK. our urologist did not think that natural IVf can offer us anything because we need to have a choice of embryos to improve our chances. 

I am sorry if I sound negative again, it's a tough journey and I get disappointed every time whatever I try it does not work. 

I also found it interesting that you need to remove covering from the egg for ICSi. the downside is when you have an immature egg it can still fertilise it with IVF but if you take out the covering from the egg and it turns out to be immature you basically lose this egg as it's no longer suitable for ICSI and you cant go back and do IVF either. That's how we lost one egg last cycle. very depressing. 

I do not understand these German laws, you can freeze the eggs for future selection but not the embryos? it really is non-sensical because the whole point of stim IVF is to be able to chose the best embryos (not the eggs) for ET the ones that are most likely going to make it in your uterus. it seems like German laws are slightly behind on this. I went for a presentation in one of London's clinics last week and they showed statistics on how the IVF success rates jumped since they introduced blastocyst culture. it seems proven that if you put back a good quality 5 day blastocyst you have far more chances of getting a viable pregnancy. 

re Vit D, as with every other vitamin and super food and all the rest of it, there is some research supporting it. obviously there are also side effects. in the UK everyone is deficient in Vit D simply because we have very little sun here and yet women get pregnant here like there is no tomorrow&#8230; having said that I do take 4,000 of vit D daily for a few weeks every year, particularly winter time 

I agree with MoBaby, checking tubes seems very important considering your history. sorry I forgot did hysteroscopy show any abnormality in your uterus? if not, I would not spend lots of money on immune testing but rather just take steroids after ET to deal with any possible implantation issues.


----------



## dovkav123

Mobaby,
What a story. Thank you for sharing with us. You didn't give up that's why you are rewarded!
Endometrium scratch. What is this procedure? Do you need a painkiller?
I also tried to do 3 HCG shots after the ET.

Briss, you are right that enviroment is full of poisons and you can't do much about it.
What I try to do to:
1. Open bedroom window for fresh air only before the bedtime, less traffic on the road that ime.
2. My soap detergent has no perfume and I do a second rinse. I am planning on switching washing my laundry with a baking soda.
3. Talking about baking soda and vinegar they are the best cleaners. Kitchen counter top, toilet, bathtubs, fridge. Add some lemon juice for beter aroma.
4. When I was in Lithuania, my family washes dishes with baking soda. I'll do it too. Only a very greasy pan I'll clean wih a dishsoap.
5. I always wash my fruit and veggies with vinegar, to remove pesticides.

In Lithuania we don't get much sun too, but my family eats lots of fish and I love it too!


----------



## Briss

*dovkav*, excellent plan! I stopped using synthetic body wash years ago and switched to organic tar soap &#8211; smells bad but DH and I got used to it over the years. I also use soda (and have been for years) to wash cups and glasses. None of it got me pregnant though&#8230;


----------



## dovkav123

You are doing everything right, Briss. You have history of cancer in your family, so protecting yourself from toxins is very important. Well done!
WE'll be parents one day, we just need to wait for a healthy egg and sperm.

I think you are righ, we are dealing with an age here. My hubby's sperm is super, but who know what are the chromosomes?
This month we :sex: every other day and hopefully this will give us the best quality Probably it'll take 3 months to see an improvement. He is sure happy about this plan!
I also finally doing my stretching exercise, castor oil with meditation.

I was in the shopping mall a couple of days ago. A little girl 1.5 was walking back and forward with her dad. My hubby noticed she liked me, smiled at me. She wanted to stay around me, but her dad was taking her away. Finally she came to me and held my hand for a second, giggled and walked away.
My hubby told me this child really likedyou. I told him this was our child, she was born to a wrong parents!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Those were the bittest thoughts I have ever had during this infertility journey. I hope I won't have them again.


----------



## dovkav123

My hubby wants to try again natural IVF with a big implanation aid plan.
I want to check my tubes first, maybe I have a tubal problem that prevents me to succeed. Mo baby me gave this idea.
Hysteroscopy was OK. RE tells me I don't have hydrosalpynx, a BIG ONE! If I have a SMALL ONE she can't see with regular U/S.


----------



## Briss

*dovkav*, I think with your hubby's sperm count you can BD every day to improve the quality. at least that's what our urologist (he is considered one of the best in the UK) recommended. even though my DH's count is very low he still said it's about the quality!

re cancer, I am focusing on alkaline vs acidic food. basically cancer sells love everything acidic and they survive and grow in acidic environment; they cant live in alkaline environment. our body tries to maintain certain balance between being acidic and alkaline. but if we eat acidic food (which is basically most of our food and sugar in particular) it makes it very hard for our body to maintain this balance and cancer sells find they way in. i try to eat and drink more alkaline stuff like greens / mate tea etc 

seeing other children is tough, I once was queuing to the loo on a plane and there was a lady with a new born in front of me, seeing that baby so close distressed me so much and for the first time just for a moment I actually understood how a woman can steal anther woman's child... infertility is a terrible thing it turns your soul upside down


----------



## dovkav123

Big hug, Briss:hugs:
I was in the interview for a nanny position in USA several years ago and lady told me , she knew many stories when a babysitter steals kids and takes them to Mexico...(Mexican nannies are very popular, low cost and they teach children spanish.) 
Now I know what could be a reason for this action.

Yes, I have read about acidic food.
Vegans suppose to be cancer free.
Unfortunatly, eating too many veggies one takes in too much pesticides.
Everything in moderation.
Milk we don't drink, we eat cheese sometimes.
I grew up with milk, with farmer's milk, raw milk. It was pure and full of vitamins. These day milk in the store is a very low quality.

some studies about infertility and milk
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18314116
avoid milk products
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11601881


choose low fat milk instead fat milk for a man
https://rmany.com/2012/11/new-study-dairy-consumption-linked-to-infertility/


----------



## dovkav123

Citation form another babybump member, something new:
Well I had my consultation on Monday in London. Very interesting. Long story short I'm doing what they call Chicago immune tests as they are over 50% sure I have immune issues given what they called my young age (ha nearly fell off my chair!) cos I'm 38 and my amh level vs what quality of eggs I seem to get. They think I have an active immune system which is what has attacked my eggs basically they cannot reverse it but they can surpress it for our cycle. So I'm doing the tests next week £800! Plus I'm doing a monitoring cycle so had a blood test last week on day 3 so having a mid cycle scan also next week then I need to get a blood test from GP to test my progesterone to see if I ovulated. They do a monitoring cycle so that when you are on a cycle and your levels change they know what's normal for me so they can deal with it. They said depending on results I will either be on a short cycle or a medicated natural cycle. It will be tests and scans everyday for 2 weeks during stimulation but have relatives down there so this is the Bootcamp for Ivf by the sounds of it and it's not going to be cheap esp if I have immunes but as this is our last try I want to leave no stone unturned! They also said that they would not take my eggs to blasto cos of the few I get it's too traumatic for them cos what they have to go through to get from day 3 to 5 or 6. They think it's better to out them back where they belong. That may change if I have 4+ eggs and they need to choose but we will see. 

So that's it in a nutshell. Oh and they are doing sperm DNA fragmentation test on DH sperm not that it has been a problem but they want to check as they may put him on tablets for 3 months before treatment to help improve fragmentation which can lead to lack of implantation and miscarriages. Fx he doesn't have this prob x


----------



## Briss

Do you know what tablets they are putting her DH on for DNA fragmentation?


----------



## Briss

re milk, i think whole milk (not treated and semi fat stuff) is actually very good for fertility and egg quality. but obviously depends on where you live, I hear US milk is quite crappy and full of hormones. UK milk is pretty good and natural. not sure about Germany but I think european countries should have good quality milk compared to US


----------



## dovkav123

Butter, milk taste heavenly here compare to US. Also veggies and fruits taste sweeter and juicier here.

Did you know that you could improve DH's sperm dna fragmantation with
1g VitC and 1gr. Vit E in 2 months? Very small improvement, but it's something!
Instead testing for it I should treat him instead. I do give him Vit C every other day but Vit E he gets only small amount.
I give him Chlorella with every meal.

I found this info;

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15867002

I'll ask the girl about the pills for sperm's dna.

my hubby needs to read that, it states that embryo get fertilised but doesn't grow till blastocyst.

https://www.tdlpathology.com/servic...i'll check my tubes and we'll go natural.[/U]


----------



## Briss

My DH has been on 1,000 E and 1,000 C and all the rest of it for years on and off... our urologist laughed when he saw my Dh's list of vitamins and said I captured every antioxidant known to men :) 

I asked our urologist about antibiotics i.e. Doxycycline etc because a man could have an infection that goes undetectable for years ruining his SA but he said it is not our case we should stick to hormonal treatment and proxeed for the time being. 

infertility is not always curable unfortunately...


----------



## Yimah

Hi Dovkav123,

I went through my first IVF cycle in 2011 and it failed. Dr. found fluid in my uterus and extracted the fluid prior to transferring a total of 5 "perfect" embryos on 3 different occasions. After the failed IVF i checked my tubes and they were both blocked at the distal ends. Needless to say the blockage caused fluid to retain and spill out into my uterus which is toxic to the embryos. 

I had to have my tubes removed to have a good chance at my next IVF attempt. I am happy to say that at the age of 37 i fell pregnant with fraternal twins with my second IVF attempt.

If you have not done so already, please have your tubes checked to make sure you dont have a blockage and if they are blocked the doctor should be able to recommend treatment and how to move forward.

Best of luck to you all on this journey. And NEVER GIVE UP! Stay positive , God is great and you will have your blessing. My husband thought it would never happen but i always believed it would. :)

Baby dust to you all!


----------



## dovkav123

Yimah,
Thank you for advice. I am checking my tubes next Friday. I have seen 3 RE in 6 months and they all convinced me and my hubby that this test will not show anything, because the lap is not done. If the tubes are open, but they don't function, I'll get ectopic.
RE recommended hysteroscopy, cos the view is much better for diagnosis and he insured me that he would check the tubes. Another RE did an exam and never checked them.
I agree with you!
This journey is the hardest ever; however, we should never give up!


----------



## dovkav123

My RE wrote me:

as I told you last time there is no evidence concerning potential benefits of examining sperm DNA-fragmentation or of specfic treatment in case of higher framentation rates. This is why I do not recommend these examinations. In case a couple however wants to test the sperm DNA-fragmentation it can be examined by Synlab.

We send some information concerning Sperm DNA fragmentation (we have it only in German language) to your husband. 

As it is a (genetic) examination of the male partner your husband must make an appointment with me after having read the infomation to talk about the test and the costs. He then must also bring the information back as he has to sign the consent forms. Then (and not before!!!) he can make an appointment with our IVF-lab to give the sperm sample and we then will send the sperm then to Synlab.

RE*SPONCE to his silver teeth filling* :Concerning his teeth: When the dentist says everything is ok then I do not recommend additional examinations. The effect of vitamin tablets is not clear. Most likely they are not harmful, however there is no evidence for a benefit.


RE told me before that his sperm may have chromosomal problems.
Before stimulated IVF I want to check this out. What happens, if non of the egg will fertilise?


----------



## dovkav123

I hear this every single appointment:"No supportive evidence concerning potential benefits about this test"(immunity, dq match, genetic) I understand that only small studies were done about those issues and insurance or goverment will not pay for that. But we pay ourselves. Dr. should not deny a test even for our peace of mind.

"Vitamins(zinc, selenium, chlorella) has no evidence of benefits?" Why do I take folic acid?


----------



## Briss

*dovkav*, I had laparoscopy & Dye/hysteroscopy all at the same time. it took about 30-40 min under general anesthetic; it's very invasive test but at least it confirmed that tubes/ uterus is fine (cos HSG previously was inconclusive) and no endo etc. 

re examining sperm DNA-fragmentation, my DH's morphology is quite bad so our urologist did not recommend wasting money on this test cos he said we can assume the result wont be great and it is only going to depress us. so DH is to take antioxidants (and most importantly stay away from the beer which is basically the main reason for his poor morphology). also obviously he recommended stim IVF for a choice of embryos. we could also go for IMSI next time which is an additional level of sperm quality check before choosing a sperm for ICSI. in your case morphology is good but due to age DNA fragmentation can still be bad. I cant tell you whether you need to do the test or not but it can provide an answer as to why you cant conceive (anything over 30% fragmentation and the chances of a healthy embryo are basically close to 0) but if the DNA fragmentation is OK then you should probably leave your DH alone and concentrate on your fertility and maybe go for more invasive tests. 

re vitamins and tests, there are official guidelines so no research will be accepted by FS unless it is included in the official guidelines. for example, two years ago I begged my FS to do AMH test and she refused because it was not part of the tests accepted for IVF in the UK. now two years later they finally accepted it and now everyone gets it done for free via NHS. Really annoying cos I had to pay for it. the same with vitamins, she told me no research on any vitamins helping sperm quality. now our urologist said that it is confirmed that antioxidants help sperm quality. but obviously I have known this for years. it's just taking ages for the system to process new findings so they are always behind.


----------



## Briss

re folic acid, I do not know it is the same in germany but in the UK we are deficient and there were studies linking it to birth defects. but please make sure you take the natural form which is folate and not folic acid. folic acid is being stored in your body and is linked to cancer. it's fine for ladies who get pregnant quickly but we are TTC for ages so taking folic acid long term can be harmful. folate seems like a much better alternative.


----------



## dovkav123

Thank you, my friend, I am taking folate acid, I double checked on the lable.

Today we received info about a sperm dna fragmentation. My RE put an extra brochure from the synlab and it states that the sperm dna fragmantation problem could be fixed with antioxidants! Hell, my hubby got mad on our RE! She stated it's not proven!

Anyway, I have drank alcohol every day since I found out our embryo didn't make it.
Tonight was the last 3 glasses of wine I drank, cos tomorrow will be the 3rd day of my cycle and my folilcle will start growing.

Few days ago we went to the art gallery to Heidelberg and we saw a beautiful painting and I was so sure I can paint it myself. The castle, the bridge and Necka river. My hubby's mother's birthday is on February and she always wanted a painting of Heidelberg. I want to do it for her. Today I bought the canvas for a painting and I realised I need to paint it for us. For me and my hubby cos we had our first romantic walk by the river in Heidelberg a night before my first IVF. I injected myself with HCG shot in the car, with the light of street lights. And we were dreaming of big...maybe too big....


----------



## Briss

Dovkav, how romantic! I am sure you will get lucky very soon. you so deserve it. I did not know you can paint. it's wonderful! I have bought a few paintings I just love it and could stare at them for ages.


----------



## dovkav123

You deserve it soooo much too!
Tomorrow I have contrast u/s for tubes. 
Wish me good luck! If they are open we'll try IUI on Monday.
My hubby will do his sperm dna fragmentation test.
Just hate sit and do nothing, any little step it's only forward!


----------



## Briss

best of luck with your contrast u/s tomorrow! I hope it's good news and IUI will work! fingers crossed!!


----------



## dovkav123

Thank you, Briss.
My procedure took looong time! RE couldn't put catheter in...She wanted to use a baloon catheter but they didn't have it. She kept trying till she succeeded(3rd try) It was painful! More painful than an egg retrieval! The dye went throught the tubes, so my tubes are open.:thumbup: However, we don't know if my tubes are damaged from pelvic surgery. 
Anyway, Everything looks normal. My follicle on the left was 12mm. On Monday we may do IUI.
Sperm dna we'll check when we know the result of this cycle.

I asked my RE about ureaplasma, mycoplasma in sperm(bacteria could cause dna problems). She told me it's always there, if you have too many you treat with antibiotics and in two weeks the bacteria comes back.
I don't know if we'll test for that.
I asked about the white blood cells in sperm. Durind SA they check that. DR. worry if they find a big number of those cells.

I'll sleep better tonight, the mystery is solved. My tubes are OK.
I wanted to cry after this test. Why are we both so perfect and why are we so infertile? How many other tests we should do to find out the reason? 



How is your mood today?
Hve you planned anything fun for this weekend?

I am hopeful for you this month.
Can you do IUI while you waiting those 2 long months?


----------



## Briss

dovkav, great news!!! such a relief that tubes are open! you can go ahead with IUI, I am so hoping it will work! 

afm, too much stress at work. there is a lot going on and lots of pressure from everywhere I feel like I am about to break. am also facing several business trips abroad and some during our ferrite time so we will miss a cycle or two&#8230; 

I wanted to do IUI but we do not have enough sperm for that


----------



## dovkav123

Stay strong, the weather makes people unhappy. When the sun will shine brighter, things will be better:flower:
Have you thought about taking sperm from testicular and do IUI? we need only one to make it!
https://humrep.oxfordjournals.org/content/20/7/2031.full


----------



## Briss

yes, we considered that but our urologist said it's not going to make a difference and it's mainly used for men who have very little sperm not more than a few thousands not millions. basically we are following the treatment that our urologist suggested which is hormones but ultimately it's most likely going to take a few stim IVFs until we get a viable embryo, I have no idea why it is so dramatically complicated, too tired to even think about it at the moment. I just need to get through the next couple of months and see if the treatment made any difference to DH's SA and then we will think about our options. 

it's depressing but unfortunately "we need only one" does not quite work for sperm cos in reality we need at least 100,000,000 to start the journey so that 5-10 swimmers could get a good chance of getting to the egg; penetrating that egg is a whole different story. when you actually look at the journey the sperm have to make you wont believe that anyone ever gets pregnant


----------



## dovkav123

I agree the journey is a very difficult one. Lots of die, most of them, only a few gets to the egg. However, with IuI we are helping them to make it to the uterus, maybe closer to the tubes. 
Dr. goes by golden standart, but we are all individual people with different needs. You should try IUI!
Look at me 3 RE were against flushing my tubes, but finally I did and found out they are open, hopefully got open during the flush. Hope and pray that my pelvic surgery didn't do much harm to my fimbrae, cos those hair like structures help the egg to find a tube.

I went to my RE on Monday. I was hoping to see 20mm on my left size, but we found only 14,6mm. It grew only 2,6 mm in 4 days. My right size has a 13.6mm!!!!!
What a suprise! This is crazy! I am excited!
But my RE is sure that we have only one follicle this cycle, cos another didn't grow enought and possible there is no egg. She insured me that it's not a cyst. My lining is still thin 7.2mm. It's growing along with a follicle. We are checking again on Wednesday.
I am going to be CD12 tomorrow and I am sure I'll O late this cycle.
This cycle is different, no spotting after AF. This cycle possible is a healthy one, maybe a healthy egg is growing slowly and cozy.(or maybe 2?)

I think that my body decided to grow two follicles. It slowed down the left one that it catches up with a right one.
My grandmother has twins, fartenal. This is a genetic and runs into families.

We asked RE about clomid, she wouldn't do it in this case. How funny, that my hubby came up with this idea, cos he is so against hormones.


----------



## dovkav123

I am sorry,Briss AF came:hugs: and I am so sorry you need to go out of the town during your fertile time.:hugs: I hope things will change:flower:


----------



## Briss

dovkav, with my first natural IVf I was told the second follicle was smaller and did not grow and unlikely to have an egg so they did not touch it during EC BUT it did ovulate later on its own so it did have an egg after all (it was confirmed on the scan there was a yellow body seen where the follicle used to be) so hopefully you have at least two healthy eggies on their way!


----------



## dovkav123

Update, my left follicle stopped growing at 13,5mm "fell asleep and my body selected a dominant one" said my RE. An other one is growing, it's 16mm still too early to trigger O. We want to see 20mm. Shooting for Saturday IUI. My RE told me that this cycle is different, slow growing follicle may be a good thing.


----------



## dovkav123

CD 16 didn't have +OPK yesterday. 
I did my IUI today, I havn't o'ed yet. My follicle was 20,6mm. Uterine lining 14mm, I didn't trigger HCG, I wanted more natural way of treatment this cycle.
Not in 2ww yet, but soon. Waiting for my rised AM temps.
In This cycle my O is really late, ussually we collect an egg on CD12 or CD13. My follicle is a very slow and is stubborn like my dh:) We had to monitor it 4 times this cycle.
All my 6 IVFs went smoothly with only one ultrasound! HCG trigger and ER in 36 hours.
Hoping for a good news!


----------



## Serenyx

Keeping my fingers crossed for you Dovkav x


----------



## dovkav123

My temp is up for 2 mornings now and I think I am 2dpo, I'll start my progesterone tonight.
I have hope;
1. I have never tried TTC after flushing tubes
2. I have never tried TTC with progesterone after O.
3. In 6 months I have never had my follicle growing so slow.
4. I didn't spot after AF till O this cycle.


----------



## bunyhuny

*stalking*


----------



## Briss

dovkav, I so hope you will get lucky this month!


----------



## dovkav123

Thank you girls!

Sorry for BFN, bunyhuny:hug: I am wishing you only positive thoughts and best luck for your second IVF. Please update us. Will you continue your old thread or you'll start a new one?
Hoping and praying for only good results


----------



## bunyhuny

Hey girl. I'm not sure. I might start a new journal for this coming IVF cycle. I'll update as soon as I know. 

How's the progesterone going?


----------



## dovkav123

5 dpo today. I want to start testing at 10dpo.
I have no problems with progesterone, I take them vaginally 200mg every evening. It doesn't give me any side effects.


----------



## dovkav123

I am very hungry and I have appetite for carbs and anything I find in the fridge healthy or not. Ussually I am a healthy freak!
Bleeding left nostril evey other day for a few seconds. Also I have headache on the same side at that moment. Maybe progesterone is playing tricks on me:)


I forgot to tell you that my hubby assited in IUI. He removed a cap from the catheter. It was so adorable! He kept it as a souvenir. It's a baby blue color. That's my nickname, he calls me baby blue all the time. My eyes are sky blue. Also it's my favourite color. A baby boy color. I know we'll have a boy soon. I knew that for fact when I was a teenager.
Earlier or later we'll be blessed with joy, I promise you:friends:

Happy Valentines:kiss:


----------



## Briss

dovkav, how is it going? are you about 10dpiui? you can start testing in a day or two. I am so hoping this is it for you. keeping my fingers crossed!


----------



## DBZ34

How's it going, dovkav? Are you testing soon or are you going to wait a bit longer? Stalking for good news!!


----------



## dovkav123

Thank you girls.
Hopefully I'll start testing tomorrow. 
It is sunny here in Germany. Yesterday was a very warm first Spring day. Spring flowers are blooming....
Hopefully I'll be in good mood tomorrow.

Briss, I was wrong about my clinic. Well, my RE told me she can not freeze 20 embryos. Lower than that is OK. She would grow many embies to blasts.


----------



## dovkav123

If my R tube fails, and probably will, I'd like to give a chance to a L tube.
I would do another IUI if I have a mature follicle on the L side. 
It'll give me peace of mind that I did everyhing I could...
Than I need to convince my hubby for stims. Soak myself in nasty, ugly hormones.

ON the other hand, if my egg quality was bad in all 5 egg retrievals. It is possibility that a good egg will pop out during IUIs. And we won't catch it. 
I give this up to God and he'll decide...


----------



## bunyhuny

Hey girlie. Just checking in on you. How you feeling? I started stimming tonight and am so exhausted. They added in Prednisone this cycle and I think it must be the cause, since I don't remember being this tired during stims last time around... Have you ever taken Prednisone?

Glad you're having lovely weather there, and I really hope you get your BFP this cycle so you won't have to make any more IF plans for a while!


----------



## Briss

bunyhuny, Prednisone is really hard core so I am not surprised you are not feeling that great on it. Hopefully it will make the difference and you will get your BFP. Do you know if you would need to carry on taking it through the first trimester? 

dovkav, 20 embryos is a lot! even if you get 20 eggs, you will probably end up with 15-18 embryos out of which only 4-8 will probably get to blastocyst stage. I think your plan to try IUI before going for stims is a good one, you really need to feel positive as stim cycles can be tough. you are only 34, I am sure your eggs are fine, there can be an occasional bad egg but most of them should be of good quality.


----------



## dovkav123

Got BFN this morning at 11dpiui
I'll retest in 2 days again.
After I did my test, I researched the best clinics in US. I read 2011 CDC reports.
My hubby wants to wait a year cos now we are free and can travel. IN the past 2 years we had to take care of his father with Alzheimers. So we could choose the clinic's that are close to us.
I am interested in clinics who does PGS pre-implanation genetic screening. First we need to do our genetic blood tests at genetic counseling.
Dr. does a biopsy of a blast, freezes and the results come in a week. My hubby doesn't like the idea of freezing embies. Sure they may not survive thawing. However, other clinics do PGS on a 3day embryo and than transfer a fresh one.



Bunny,
I never took prednisone. I think it's for reducing inflammation and natural killer cells activity.
I am so excited for you! I am so admire your strengh and patients.

Briss, thank you for positive encouragement. 
Next Monday we'll test hubby for sperm dna fragm.


----------



## bettybee1

Dov - sorry for your bfn ! 

Not many people actually end up with friaries becoz they have too be top quilaty and most off the the the best 2 are put back in you ! 

Am 21 - had 3 cycles no frosties each Time I've had 16eggs x


----------



## bunyhuny

*dovkav123- *Hey hunny! Sorry for the BFN. :hugs: :hugs: :hugs: If you're looking for a new IVF clinic that is a little more local, DH and I travel overseas from the US to do our IVF in Prague. The clinic here is actually very good with high success rates. It is called ISCARE and the price is much, much less than in the US. They do PGD (pre-implanation genetic diagnostics) and they offer vitrification freezing upgrade for a fee. For PGD they do the FISH method to check for chromosomal and structural problems. Their freeze/unfreeze survivability rates are near perfect and out of the two blasts I had frozen and the 4 1 day embies, all came out of the freeze in perfect condition, one actually ended up looking better after a couple hours that when it went in! 

Though I m/c my first cycle, I did get pregnant. The doctor who did my transfer was Dr Hulvert and he is very, very good. He has transfered thousands of successful pregnancies. The only reason I think my FET failed is because he was on his winter holiday and my regular RE had to do the transfer. 

This is the ISCARE price list: https://www.iscare.cz/price_list.html You can click through the rest of their website from there. Anyway- just in case you wanted a cheaper, more local option to try out in the mean time.

*Briss- *They have me on a low dose of Prednisone- 5mg a day. So far all I've been is sleepier than normal. I'm hoping I don't get any terrible mood issues. If I get pregnant, I'll stay on it until 16 weeks, since last pregnancy I bled the entire time and then lost the baby in the 10th week. Better safe than sorry, you know?


----------



## Briss

dovkav, I am sorry about BFN but it may still be early, I did not get a positive until 13 DPO. keeping my fingers crossed for you.

bunyhuny, your clinic looks great. Do you know if Prednisone has any side effects in pregnancy? Probably not such a low dose but I am just curios.


----------



## bunyhuny

Briss said:


> dovkav, I am sorry about BFN but it may still be early, I did not get a positive until 13 DPO. keeping my fingers crossed for you.
> 
> bunyhuny, your clinic looks great. Do you know if Prednisone has any side effects in pregnancy? Probably not such a low dose but I am just curios.

Sorry this is out of context to your journal, Dov. :flow: Hopefully the information is useful to everyone! 

I was given some info by a friend of mine who has to take Prednisone for her health. She has Lupus and Prednisone is one of the main drugs she has always had to use (for decades). She has told me that 5mg is pretty much the lowest dose and has very few side effects. 5mg is the level they had her on during her pregnancy. Her doctor said this is very safe for babies. (Her daughter is a happy healthy 2 year old now.)

Apparently, with Prednisone you can get some really bad side effects if you have to take it for a very long time or at a very high dose, but if it is just a low dose during pregnancy it is not a big deal.

When my friend was younger, she was on a high dose for over a decade, and after that long she began to get some of the major side effects, including osteoporosis which doesn't go away from what I understand. However, that was on a high dose over many years. I guess they didn't know that it could be dangerous until more recently. Now she is on a low dose and most of the non-permanent side effects have gone away.

The other side effects she said that can happen are you get stretch marks more easily. I already have those from weight gain after quitting smoking and again from more weight gain after trying FertilAid, so I'm not concerned about that side effect. You can also get excess hair growth, which I already get from my PCOS, so I'm used to that, too. The only other major side effect she said to watch out for is hunger. Luckily, I count calories, so I can monitor that as well.


----------



## dovkav123

BFN 13dpiui. I am feeling out. I'll test on Sunday again.


----------



## Briss

dovkav123 said:


> BFN 13dpiui. I am feeling out. I'll test on Sunday again.

:hugs::hugs::hugs: are you testing with FRER?


----------



## dovkav123

I don't have FRER. Maybe I can get a special order from the pharmacy. I don't buy anything online.
Anyway, I have made an appoinment for sperm dna fragment. The results will be ready in 1-2 weeks. IVF lab will mix sperm with water and freeze it. And than they will transport it to another clinic. 
Do you think freezing will hurt the sperm? Will results be actually worst than it is? Ejaculation in the cup, exposure to light would be already considered oxidative damage. Maybe he should do it in the dark? Maybe every men should do it in the dark for IVF or IUI?
I know that oxidative stress for sperm may happen already in the testicles. The longer they sit, the more they get damaged. For IVF sample you need to save for 3-5 days.
I am just hyper this morning. Tea is does it's job. For the first time I didn't quit caffeine after O.

DNA test will tell us a lot....I don't think we'll waste money..


----------



## dovkav123

CRM care in London looks like it's a nice clinic, but has not the best success rates. Do you know which one is a leading clinic in UK?


----------



## Briss

dovkav, I thought DNA fragm test is done with fresh sperm? why do they need to freeze it? I think half sperm does not survive freezing in certain circumstances it can be even more. maybe it's better for you to just go to that clinic that does the test rather than freezing it with your clinic? Actually our urologist said saving sperm for 3-5 days is counterproductive. clinic he works with ask for a second sample on the same day which is always of better quality (for ICSI it's the quality rather than quantity that matters so the considerable reduction in quantity of the second sample is not an issue). we were told to BD every day to improve the quality. but our IVF clinic told us to save up sperm for 2-3 days before EC which I now regret doing as DH's morphology was only 1%.

I just mentioned FRER (first response) as this is the most sensitive test I tried, all others were giving me bfns and only FRER gave positive

In London ARGC and UCH/CRGH as far as I know are considered top clinics but they have FSH cut off limit of 15 so they probably wont take me on anyway. no surprisingly they have high success rate, they just reject "difficult" cases. clinics like Lister and Create take on high FSH and older ladies but obviously their success rates are not that great because of that. 

discussion boards relating to CARE clinic https://www.fertilityfriends.co.uk/forum/index.php?board=559.0


----------



## dovkav123

the sperm needs to be killed before dna fragm tests. My clinic sending it to the lab. We called the lab and they don't accept sperm samples, it needs to be prepared in IVF lab first.
I need this test done. My hubby is positive his sperm is fine, he'll never quit alcochol. He'll think double before drinking if he gets horrible results. Also drinking is not good for his depression and anxiety.

Otherwise we would do proxeed for 3 months and IMSI.
I give him all the vitamins, the same as are in the proxede bootle. I don't give him l-carnitine, acetyl-l carnitine.

to tell you the truth his 6 day sample last May was the highest ever with a morfology 19%
what was his dna ?


----------



## Briss

dovkav, I think you are doing the right thing. because my DH's morphology is bad so we do not need to do dna gragm we can safely assume it's bad as well but sometimes men have excellent SA results and great morphology so you would not think there is something wrong with the sperm and then random dna test comes back as bad, so better be sure I think


----------



## dovkav123

I am so fortunate that I have you, Briss!
I can talk everything with you even about sperm!!!
Nobody is interested in my problems, so I stopped talking about them. Nobody gives me a feedback, I don't think they don't care, they just don't know....
We are the experts here, we live for it and breath for it. For info and knowledge how to get preggo....

I did get BFN this morning at 15dpiui. I am quitting my progest. tonight.
My hubby told me we'll try again, we'll never give up. It seems to me we are doing baby steps and they are too small... IUI with one egg is really going backward not forward. But I am sick answering the same question "Are your tubes open?". After each IVF I had this thought behind my head maybe we can do it naturally, with progesterone and IUI. My hubby had this idea in the begining of our treaments.
When we went for IUI's first u/s, I felt sick and wanted to throw up thinking about this clinic that we are back again cos WE don't get any results....

yesterday I met a woman who had no children she was 84. Her appendix ruptured after the war. She blames this event for childless live.

My mother in-law was supprised to find out that I had a ruptured appendix too.(it ruptured in dr. hands, but we don't know what happened for sure. He just wanted to make us feel better, cos he misdiagnosed my problem for days.) My hubby's mom says "I see black". It means no luck for you guys....After failed 3 embryos implantation, she thinks my uterus is rejecting....She has no medical backgound, but I take all opinions to heart.
Could it be that scarring around the uterus(the outside) could prevent it move freely, and prevent implantation?


----------



## Briss

dovkav, I am very sorry about BFN, how disappointing :( still, I am very sure we will have our happy endings I just hope it will happen soon cos I am passed my limits here ...

i think if the dna fragm test comes back as normal then you would need to concentrate your efforts on your body. the reason my doc insisted I had Lap&Dye is because I had abdominal surgery in the past. I had a benign tumour removed from under my liver and it's possible that my right ovary is not doing well because of that actually, hard to say. anyway lap showed that everything looked fine. if you were in the UK I am quite sure they would make you go through lap as well. that's just something to consider. I am personally quite against any invasive tests but you did have surgeries in the past and seem to be traumatic ones as well so who knows there might be something there stopping the implantation. most of the time if they see an issue they can fix it during the lap. but definitely choose a good surgeon for this. I was very unhappy with my lap but it was free under the NHS so I did not have a choice of the surgeon, I still feel very bitter about the whole thing but at least I know everything looked fine.

I am very depressed cos I've been on B&B for ages and I have joined many threads where ladies struggled but then most ended up pregnant and I had to move to other threads. I am so tired of always being the last one standing :( when is it going to be my turn?? I really wanted to have 3 children but my I am approaching 38 so I really do not see how it's even possible

Do not compare yourself to this 84 year woman because she lived in a different time and surgeries were done differently back then. it is possible that her reproductive organs were damaged during her surgery but these days it rarely happens. 

I am not sure how scarring outside uterus can affect implantation. if you think about it lots of women go through C section which is cutting the uterus and obviously having a scar (inside out) after that but they still manage to get pregnant again. a friend of mine had 4 children (the last birth were twins) all of which were c section. her uterus must have been all scarred from c sections when she got pregnant with twins...


----------



## dovkav123

I feel for you, Briss:hugs:

Last year I found out my 2 cousins got preggo, this news drove me to start fertility check ups. Here is the news: my cousins spreading their baby's photos on the internet and we are still TTC.
I am glad that I don't hang around them, it would be more difficult.
We are good friends with one couple who were lucky with the 4th stim IVF. Her husband also was older 49 y/o. 1st IVF eggs didn't fertilise. 2nd one they did ICSI. We meet their little boy. I am not jealous. People who worked hard they deserve 10 of those...I do feel more comfortable with IVF cos I see this healthy little boy running around, who is super smart and cute.
Sorry you find yourself here for many years. It seems so hard to pick up and keep going after a bfn. Part of me is just ready to give up and move on. The other part of me can't imagine life without a little one of my own and forces me to keep trying - that part of me keeps shrinking!! Hang in there. I promise it gets easier... but it definitely is never easy.

I quit progesterone yesterday. I did temped after IUI. I can tell that progest. did a good job, my temps stayed nice and high. 
This morning my temp is super high and I have a headache. Staying away from alcochol and having a tiny tiny hope.
I am pregnant till witch:) proves otherwise.
P.S. immortal optimist is talking here:)

I didn't have any discomfort or abdominal cramping after O after my appendix surgery. Very Painful gass or abdominal cramping during urination after O started just few years ago. I also didn't have O pains and fertile mucous. They did show up after I quit my birth control in 2007 or 2008. My periods became heavy and clotty. We used withdrawal method. With a good sperm and a healthy woman, it's possible to get preggo even with this method. I did push sperm up with my finger sometimes. Maybe if we started TTC after quiting my pill, we could bin lucky.
Possible I developed endometriosis. Birth control misbalanced my hormones. 
I am so sorry about your lap. You were not happy...
I am very scared of Lap. I am afraid dr. will cut something out without asking me....My appendix was wrapped around my bely botton in the middle. I may have a very different anatomy, so dr. could injur my other organs. Many girls after 2 or 3 lap surgeries still end up doing IVF.


----------



## dovkav123

My hubby's heavy metal results in urine came back normal. Another good news!
sperm dna fragm is next.....
I forgot to tell you uring IUI I was told that I have a cervical canal 8cm long. I beleave an average is 3cm. Spermies have a long way to swim!!
I have read that 2cm short cervix at 24 weeks of pregnancy can cause a preterm labor.


----------



## Briss

dovkav, thank you. nice to have people in your life who understand how hard this is. I am not giving up but it's just frightening with every month my fertility window is getting narrower, I have less and less time&#8230;

great news on the heavy metal results!

re lap, I had a 15 min argument with a doc just before my surgery cos I refused to sign a paper allowing them to remove an ovary in case they cant remove the cyst without the ovary. It was very hard and the doc was so young and stupid, she said something like why do you worry you will still have the other ovary???? my anger is rising every time I think about it. but I did not go to the theatre until they changed the forms. if you cant remove my cyst without damaging my ovary then leave the ovary alone you stupid idiot (that's not what I said to her but I really wanted to) 

How interesting about your cervical canal. 8cm, I have no idea how long mine is. to be honest I assumed it was very short like an opening, I had no idea it's at least 3 cm. that's super long, isn't it? maybe IUI is a way forward for you to make it easier for the spermies?


----------



## dovkav123

Sorry :friends: for :witch:


----------



## dovkav123

https://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2013/05/22/feminine-hygiene-products.aspx

Furthermore, to give tampons and pads that pristine, clean white look, the fibers used must be bleached. Chlorine is commonly used for this, which can create toxic dioxin and other disinfection-by-products (DBPs) such as trihalomethane. Studies show that dioxin collects in your fatty tissues, and according to a draft report by the US Environmental Protection Agency (EPA), dioxin a serious public health threat that has no "safe" level of exposure! Published reports show that even low or trace levels of dioxins may be linked to:

Abnormal tissue growth in the abdomen and reproductive organs 
Abnormal cell growth throughout the body 
Immune system suppression 
Hormonal and endocrine system disruption


----------



## Briss

dovkav, you are raising an important issue actually, I stopped using always' products a few years ago when they switched to perfumed pads. they used to have normal pads but then for some reason (probably cost saving) they replaced their products with really smelly ones. I hate the smell of perfumed tissues so I am now just going for the most simple pads available, our local boots' brand seems to be OK. I never use tampons though, just hate the idea of anything obstructing my free flow out. 

Also, I am not sure I completely believe the article cos it might just be a marketing thing against always brand (as an alternative the author invites us to visit their on line store). I mean you do not need to burn their pads to find out they are made of synthetic fibers I think it's quite obvious, most pads are synthetic. Having said that, I will look into ordering some Natracare pads from amazon, they are a little more expensive than what I'd usually pay but I like the fact that they are organic. I could not go for Glad Rags Organic Pads cos they are reusable, that's just not something I can do really. I got some soft cups but they did not suit me, I just hate the idea of walking around with something alien up there.


----------



## dovkav123

It doesn't matter that an author invites to buy her products. It is obvious plastic or perfumed articles are not good for you. 
We, children, grew up with cloth daipers, but now we use plastic daipers. I know that plastic daipers hold wettness longer, so many moms prefer to use them at night only. However, skin doesn't breath so it gets rashes. I'll stay away from them.
Cloth daipers I may try and see if they work for me.
My mon used a cotton for her AF. Cotton contains chemicals but lower amounts.
Soft cups are used to keep sperm in for longer too!!
They were super expensive in US.
Reusable pads, I would be interested in cos my flow is not that heavy.

My AF just came:(
I found a cotton and a medical band. I'll wrap it up and it'll work for me today!


----------



## Briss

dovkav, sorry about AF. What's your plan for this cycle?

I used cotton when I was a teenager &#8211; a complete and total nightmare + my AF is heavy and they leaked all the time, ruined most of my underwear so I am not going back to that. pads with proper wings is a way forward for me but do not mind a more organic version.


----------



## dovkav123

My 1st day of my period was very painful, I had sharp, stabbing pains, clots, the worst ever since last febr2013. I have pains on the left and right sides.
I hope my left lazy follicle has nothing to do with it. My dr. told me it'll disapear with AF.
I hope HSG flush didn't mess up my lining. I was only 1 day late. Often the cycle is delayed after this procedure.

I made an appointment for u/s on my CD 9. We'll see what's going on and we'll decide than if we do natural IVF or another IUI.

The cotton pad was horrible. It didn't leak, but maybe it was too big and hard, was not comfortable at all. I need to go to the store to get the proper ones.

When are your hubby's tests?


----------



## dovkav123

Doing IUI#2 on Monday.
My other ovary, Left one, has an 18mm follicle on CD9. On the schedule, like always.
My dr. suggested IUI anyways cos we havn't done many yet... She agrees we should give a chance. We'll take advantage of the freshly flushed tubes. She wouldn't do HCG shot either.
So will take her advice.
How are you, Briss?


----------



## Briss

dovkav, well done on being so proactive and trying different things. I so hope this IUI works for you! my first AF after HSG was also very heavy and unusually painful. I have used the organic pads but they are just not enough for heavy days, I need something more &#8230; well plastic to hold everything in sorry for TMI, but I will give the organic ones another go. 

I am Ok but ever so slightly depressed&#8230; my new clinic took its time to allocate a doctor for my next IVF and then they put me on a waiting list for the initial appointment so no idea when we can start the next IVF, most likely May if not later. I will be 38 soon&#8230;


----------



## dovkav123

I had 23mm follicle during IUI, 12mm uterine lining, My dr. used a tubal catheter, cos it's very flexible and thin. I felt a cramp during the procedure. Dr.told me that bleeding it is normal. I did have a drop of blood an hour later and I had in the evening brown spotting too.
I didn't bleed last month.
I am testing around 24th at home.
Praying and hoping for a good outcome.

Briss, your hubby will have more time to heal. You are on the right path right now. You are going forward slowly like we do....baby steps, one at a time. 
Do you beleave in COQ-10 and DHEA for a better egg quality?


----------



## DBZ34

The follie sounded like it was nice, big and ready for fertilization! I hope this IUI is it! 

I had a cramp during the catheter insertion for my IUI, but no bleeding afterward. My nurse said it was normal to have some spotting/bleeding after though. What kind of catheter did they use before?

I am very much looking forward to the 24th! Hoping and praying for you!! I hope you get your BFP!!


----------



## dovkav123

5dpIUI today and I have nothing excited to report. However, we all have hope...

Yesterday I met a woman with 2 young children. She didn't get pregnant for 10 years. She had a LAP done and one of her tubes were blocked and another was very narrow. She got preggo only with a help of hormones. She was 37 y/o. Another baby she conceived a year later. It was a big suprise.
She keep telling me, you'll get preggo soon, it will happen...

Sending you a sticky :dust: and preggo vibes


----------



## dovkav123

14dpiui was BFN.
My hubby wants to do another IUI. NO more for me... I have rested enough. It was expensive one.
I am ready for another IVF shot!
I called clinic for sperm dna testing. Nobody called back. I'll try again tomorrow.
Feeling cramping, I really hope this AF will be milder than last one.


----------



## dovkav123

So ladies, after 2 test cancelations, lots of thinking and debating we did a sperm dna test.

I think we are doing a natural cycle IVF.

The sperm results should be in 2-3 weeks. I have an appointment on Friday for u/s on CD8. Possible ER on Monday or Tuesday.
My dr. wants us to wait till the results. She doesn't have a treatment for a high fragm sperm anyways. We are doing for our own peace and mind. However, If we do IVF and we get lucky than we did dna test for nothing...
His morfology improved from 5% to 19% last month. Motility improved from20% to 30%. He is on the normal range. I think we need to do IVF and hope that the sperm is still in good shape for this April cycle.
This time during IVF I'll ask my dr. to test my hormones during egg retrieval and after an embryo transfer. Maybe I need some extra help for my TWW.


----------



## DBZ34

I hope this natural IVF works for you! The fact that your hubby's sperm quality improved is great. Maybe all you needed was improved sperm to make your IVF successful. I think having your hormones tested could be a good idea too. 

Oh, dovkav, I really hope that this month is it for you. Christmas babies all around! :)


----------



## Briss

*dovkav*, well done on persevering with natural IVF. I am rooting for you. hoping that DNA fragmentation test is going to be fine. what an impressive improvement in morphology from 5% to 19%!! what was your DH taking? 

*afm*, My clinic finally found it in them to get me an initial appointment somewhere mid May which seems like ages away and moves me ever so closely to being 38. I really cant wait to start our next IVF (I honestly do not know how many IVFs it is going to take but I want to carry on for as long as we are able to so the sooner we can start the better really)

DH is due to repeat his SA but he is postponing it for as long as he can. I have to say that his treatment is definitely working, much more sex than ever before and very little nagging on my part is required. definitely more facial hair and aggression &#8211; I guess he did need extra testosterone. 

My ovulation is back to CD 11 which is annoying so I will be doing EPO next cycle. I am also back on fish oil, coq10, pregnacare, vitamin C after O, grapefruit juice. I decided I will not go back to Chinese herbs and acu but I will try to have more reflexology and massages


----------



## dovkav123

My hubby's sperm improved cos 
1. he quit alchohol for 3 weeks dry and now he has a glass of wine a day.
2. we have sex every 2 days
3. I give him seeds with honey, vitC 500-1000mg, zinc, selen, CoQ-10, vitD, vitE1000mg.
3. He quit caffeine. I give him ginger, red clover, cinammon tea with honey instead.
4. He has less stress and sleep more.

Briss, May is such a beautiful month and i know it's a right time for you guys for IVF. I hope and pray this is it!
I am positive 100% that your hubby's swimmer are improving every day. He'll get a good reslult.
Fertile aid may help to improve your cycle. What is EPO?

DBZ, Thank you for an encouragement. 
It is our 9th intensive fertility treatment. We didn't ttc naturally at all. If our first IVF was successful, we would be delivering our baby this month. So much pressure, so many emotions and so many BFN.
I do hope this one is the last IVF ever. 
I do hope for a Christmas joy for all of us!


----------



## dovkav123

WE went to U/s on Friday 04/04/14. The follicle is on the R side 16.8mm on CD8. ER is on Monday.
I asked my dr about his morfology during dna sperm analysis and I was so sad to know his morfology dropped to 5% again. I feel crushed and cheated. I did my HCG shot yesterday and ER is tomorrow. I have thoughts to cancel IVF and do another IUI. 
I have hope.... I have read that 5% morfol is OK for IUI. Less than that IVF. I just need to relax and take some deep breaths....

My hubby drank a lot yesterday. He wants to have sex today. This is crazy cos tomorrow he needs to provide his sample. It is not a good idea. His volume will be too low.

*Briss*, don't worry about early O. I do O on CD 11 too. 
Dr. Hannam writes this:

"Ideally ovulation will occur days 11 or 12. Delayed ovulation -day 13 or later- is not a sign of egg quality concerns; in fact, it is more commonly a sign of an excess ovarian reserve, generally a good thing. But early ovulation -days 8,9, or 10 of the cycle- implies lower quality eggs"


Please look at this info more. I have never read anywhere else about this
https://www.fertility.ca/2008/06/how-your-menstrual-cycle-reflects-your-egg-quality/


----------



## Briss

dovkav, good luck with ET! 5% morphology is actually quite good. they want it over 4%. are you going with ICSi or IVF? if ICSI then i think you can BD tonight. I know the clinics asks to not BD at least for 2-3 days before EC but our urologist said 2-3 days is not great for sperm quality i.e. morphology and that some clinics specifically ask men to produce two samples on the day of EC and use the second sample which has better quality. 

thanks for the link! I agree that CD11 ovulation is still within norm but it would just be slightly better to ovulate 1-2 days later to give the egg a bit more time to grow and develop.


----------



## dovkav123

Thank you, Briss
IVF#2 was done with ICSI cos his motility was only 16%, and than we did have a 2dt.

We'll do IVF not ICSI.
I have researched about 3 pronuclei. WE had 2 cases in our new clinic.
an egg is fertilised with more than one sperm.
At IVF, polyspermic fertilization has been associated with maternal aging, a decrease in serum estradiol concentrations before administration of hCG during controlled ovarian hyperstimulation, egg immaturity, a high concentration of motile (morphologically normal or capacitated) sperm in the insemination medium, subzonal sperm injection (a microscopic technique designed to assist fertilization), and incubation of the eggs in suboptimal conditions (air, at high temperatures, or under alkali conditions).

https://www.thenewjerseyfemaleinfertilitycenter.com/p_fertilized_egg_pronuclei_03.php


----------



## Briss

polyspermic fertilisation is not the only reason for 3 pronuclei in an egg. we were told of this risk even when we had ICSI. it's egg's fault as far as I understood the embryologist. there is nothing you can do about it. but if your embryologist confirmed that it was due to polyspermic fertilisation then I guess ICSI is your best bet.


----------



## dovkav123

My RE told me that ICSI will not help in our case...
drop of estrogen is more common in stim cycles, during u/s my RE comments on high amounts of fertile mucous and open cervix, those
signs show my high estrogen production.
Imature egg, I always have my HCG shot when my follicle is more than 20mm. 
If my egg fertilises, I'll take baby aspirin and we'll BD next day after ET.


----------



## dovkav123

ON Monday we found an egg and today it got fertilised.:happydance: We'll wait till Thursday to transfer cos on the day3 DR will check the egg's shell, if it's hard, they will do assisted hatching. We have never done it before. I'll take aspirin, 300mg progesterone, we'll BD and I'll eat lots of pineapple core.
FRom 6 eggs we got 4 fertilised(perfect grade) and two with 3 pronuclei, not viable. Not a bad statistics.....

Egg retrieval was smooth, IVF lab asked if about anethesia and my dr. told them I didn't needed. Someone said OUCH!!!
I didn't make a sound during procedure. I had 23,1mm follicle and next to it was 11mm(she took a chance, she knew it won't be mature). She aspirated both. WE got one egg.

My hubby was holding my hand.

During sperm "retrieval" my hubby was looking in the book, I gave a helping hand, and he felt an urge, so the first drops got on the floor and his hands:growlmad:

his volume was 38mil,morfology 5%, fast sperm 0%, 20% slower.

Yesterday was a good day cos my hubby told me if it won't work will do a stim IVF in US. Finally he agrees we need to do a serious baby making decisions.


----------



## Briss

dovkav, wonderful news!!! your DH's SA sounds fine actually even though he lost a bit. keeping my fingers crossed for your embie to grow nicely and be perfect and ready for Thursday's ET.


----------



## dovkav123

yesterday we transfered 3dt 8B (embriologist told me A between B), but in report was writtten 8B. Got the photo.
I felt some activity yesterday in my uterus, Today nothing.
NO cervical contractions so far, I ussually felt before 5dt in 3 cases. It was a bad news for me. I was thinkiing Here they come, no good!

an embryo shell was 15-20, assited hatching with a laser was performed. They made a whole. In the literature I read if zona pellucida more than 15, AH is recommended.

I rested 30min after ET
I take 100mg aspirin a day
3g fish oil (helps with immunity response)
alfa alfa, sweet pea sprouts, 
300mg progesterone
VitD 3000
flaxseed oil
q-10
eating pinapple, avocado
stopped my green tea
BD before ET and will BD on 4dt and so on...

I have read that AH embryo could implant earlier and it is a chance for monozygote twins

O whole in the embryo's shell could cause infection. Some ladies take antibiotics...

ODT is on the Easter. Clinic is closed.
If we get lucky, we stil could have a baby in 2014, around my birthday or in early January.


----------



## Briss

dovkav, fantastic!! good luck I am so hoping that's your lucky cycle. 7 is a lucky number 

I read a new book on egg quality and apparently new studies show that most chromosomal damage occurs within 2 months prior to O so while egg is preparing for O and consequently we can change its quality! that's just ground breaking. I am so pleased with this. I started changing my diet as they recommend and the first thing to get rid of is sugar. apparently ovaries respond to insulin and it affects egg quality. I am eating much more protein rich food and increased my coq10 to 600 and eggs need a lot of energy to move chromosomes and with age they get less of it. I also went back to having acupuncture and am considering going back to Chinese herbs as well. I found a practitioner who specialises on high FSH ladies.

the strangest thing is I have been spotting last 2 cycles before AF which so not typical for me. I wonder if my progesterone levels are falling down for some reason.


----------



## dovkav123

Sugar is a good point. It is a bitter truth. Addiction, mood swings, emotions, weight gain-all is caused by sugar.
ICe cream The only thing I miss. I see people licking those cones, it makes me jelous. None of the shop here in Germany has only fructose based ICE cream. In US I found ice cream made with maltol sugar.
I don't eat refined sugar, only natural sugar like fruits for years.
I have learned before, that it also takes 3 months to improve egg quality, like with sperm.

Shorter luteal faze and premenstrual spotting also could tell about bad quality eggs. My luteal faze was always long, but spotting was there. 
Now it's gone with or w/o progesterone. Better quality vitamins and food here in Germany maybe made my eggs healthier!
When is your hubby's SA?


----------



## Briss

actually chocolate always helped me stay relatively slim cos if I eat chocolate I feel full and do not eat food. Now I eat 3 protein rich meals a day and snack on fruit and nuts in between and that's causing me to put on so much weight! I am trying not get it bother me cos the main thing is getting good nutrients in. I hope that's what I do 

also, the book says that fruit sugars should also be limited cos even though they have lots of goodies in them ultimately they cause our bodies produce insulin so it's the same thing as bad sugars. 

My LH did not change it's the same 13/14 days but spotting is something new so I am worried.

been begging DH to make an appointment with the urologist for days now but he just says stop pressurising me. so annoying I really do not understand what's the problem with seeing the doctor to find out if the treatment is working or needs some changes


----------



## dovkav123

I think and ideal food to eat is
1. some lean animal protein( twice or once a day)
2. a lot plant protein
3. some fruit(organic better)
4. some carbohydrates (only whole wheat)
5. unlimited low carb veggies(organic better)

I found dark chocolate with stevia, we'll see if can tolerate that.

My hubby procrastinates too all the time.
He was good with all IVFs, except he canceled a dna fragm test one time.
Your hubby worries for nothing.
Tell him that the results will be so good, you can't wait to celebrate with him. Maybe do something fun together with only little beer...


----------



## Briss

My DH could not stand the pressure anymore and went away to a gold club for the entire weekend... :( 

I am researching Vitamin D, I am taking 4,000 IU of solgar brand but apparently it needs to be in an oil capsule. Can you recommend a good brand for vitamin D in an oil capsule rather than a solid tablet? I am reading this book on egg quality and it says that Vitamin D is a fat-soluble vitamin so for best absorption is should be taken with some fat/oil. I have been searching but it seems most of our usual brands do not produce vitamin D in an oil capsule. So far only found Natural Stacks&#8482; Vitamin D3 which is 5,000 IU of D3 with 100 mg of Organic Coconut Oil in each capsule.https://naturalstacks.com/products/vitamin-d3 Do you think coconut oil is safe while TTC?

I had my first sugar in a week, added two tea spoons of fructose to my morning coffee. even though it's fruit sugar I know it's still not good cos it has the same effect as normal sugar but still so far I have been doing really great, not a single chocolate or sweet or pastry or anything like that all week and I have no craving!! I am doing about 70-80 gm of protein a day which I think is good and twice as much as I had before.


----------



## dovkav123

cinammon slows down sugar spikes...very good for diabetics

Yes. Vit D is a fat sloluable. It means it get stored in the body, it easy to overdose. Yes. you need to take it with fat. 

My vit D: I take Vigantoletten 1000 IE tabletten vit D3, Form: Colecalciferol, filler is sugar and soja oil.

In the pharmacy they cost around 8 euro for 100 pills. I take 3 a day.


----------



## Briss

Thank you!! do they look like this?
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Vitamin-D3...qid=1397296516&sr=8-1&keywords=Colecalciferol


----------



## dovkav123

my pills are very small and white, not in capsule in tablet form
It is a different brand, but this brand looks good, you should buy it.


----------



## dovkav123

coconut oil is a very healthy, esspecially for frying.
Natural health specialist recommend to use it as a lubricant, it's anit-bacterial, anti-inflammatory


----------



## Briss

I started spotting it'd only 10 DPO :( am devastated as if I did not have enough problems to deal with like low sperm count and high FSH I now need to deal with pre AF spotting which has never been my issue. truly depressing


----------



## dovkav123

I had lots of spotting 2 years ago. I had spotting before O and before AF. SOmetimes I had to put carefree in my panties cos I had brown wet, thick stuff.
Only in August-Dec IVFs I got on progesterone, I had no more spotting before AF, no more spot before O 

I did apply castor oil before O when I started my IVFs.
Dr. couldn't explain to me why I was spotting...


Look, Briss
From 11 months I had only 2 months spot free. My hormones were OK, my follicles were growing, my periods did got shorter on January in 2013, from 8 days where reduced to 7 and now to 6. Shorter was my period, less flow and pain.. My LH stayed always the same 16-17 days. I started anti-inflamm diet around that time, maybe that was the reason of my period change.

I think that cycles are changing throught the time and it doesn't mean you need to blame your FSH. 
Diet, stress, meds can cause some changes too.

Your LH is consistent in lenght. THis is great. Nothing to worry about.
One thing I could worry about, if your spotting increases from brown turns to red, then it means your LH is shortening.
If you are spotting before your period, you should take some progesterone. During IVF you'll take it.
Could you check your progesterone levels 7 days after O? It needs to be 30ng/ml and higher. You should ask your DR for progesterone now, your hubby's sperm is better now maybe you have a chance??!
I beleave your estrogen numbers are good, cos you have plenty fertile mucous.

Remember after stims you had a very lond period. Now it is normal again. 

I hope you'll enjoy this nice Sunday.
You have tested. It is always a possiblity..
Sending your warm wishes and thougths.:hugs:


----------



## DBZ34

Hi dovkav!! 

How are things going? How are you feeling? I know your testing day is coming up soon. I just stopped by to see how you were. :)


----------



## dovkav123

Thank you for thinking of me!
Since 8dpo my cramping stopped. No symtomps so far. I am 11 dpo.
Testing on Easter Monday. I know I can hold on to that day.
How is your 2ww?

Happy Easter!


----------



## dovkav123

*BFP*

14dpo Clearblue digital

speechless.....:cloud9:


----------



## DBZ34

YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!!!! 

:happydance: :happydance: :happydance: :happydance: :happydance:

:happydance: :happydance: :happydance: :happydance: :happydance:

OMG!!! Dovkav!!!!! I am so freaking excited for you!! 

DH just gave me the crazy eye because I yelled so loud when I saw your post. lol. But, seriously, I am so so so happy for you!! 

You so deserve it. :D All your hard work has paid off. :) I was feeling down today, but you've picked me right back up with this news. :) 

Congratulations, Dovkav!!! H&H 9 months!


----------



## DBZ34

Oh, and my tww....not nearly as exciting as this. :)


----------



## Briss

dovkav123 said:


> *BFP*
> 
> 14dpo Clearblue digital
> 
> speechless.....:cloud9:

OMG!!!! :happydance::happydance::happydance:

am so happy for you!! dovkav, this is amazing! such happy news at last! 

did you do anything different this cycle? was the embryo better quality than before?


----------



## dovkav123

How are you, Briss?
I did many different things this time and my embryo quality was not better. It is always A or B. This one was B.

1. No castor oil packs this cycle
2. we did assisted embryo hatching
3. we BD'ed before ET and after ET (w/o orgasm)
4. I walked slowly but long after ET, staying active always, no bed rest
5. aspirin 100mg enteric coated started after ER, quit a day for ET(procedure could cause bleeding) and now I am taking it every evening with food and water
6. I ate lots of fish. I am taking 3g fish oil a day
7. 1000mg green tea extract with vitC after ET till BFP. (reduces inflammation responce)
8. Black carraway oil 20 drops a day. now I slow down to 3 drops
9. spoonfull avocado oil 
10. pinapple and pinapple core after ET till BFP
11 increased vit D from 2000iu to 3000iu a day
12. iron 100mg a day, quit after BFP
13. Green chlorella increased from 1 pill to 3 pills a day
14. Probiotics one pill a day from ET til BFP
15 Sandorn and lemon juice
16. dandelion salat
17. alfa alfa and sweet peas sprouts
18. layed down 30min after ET
19. eating dried plums and abricots
20. ginger root tea, clove, and cinammon
21. water soaked walnuts and brasil nuts
22. I have used organic menstrual pads for 2 months.
23. banana a day(aspirin can thin my intestines and banana thickens them)
24. spicy food , hot peppers in 2ww

I did a lot. I'll never know what helped us this time


----------



## Briss

dovkav, thank you so much for sharing! tbh, I think the key thing was probably assisted embryo hatching but I am sure other things helped you stay healthy. so wonderful!


----------



## dovkav123

How are you, Briss?
I am thinking of you a lot:hugs:
Do you have any plans for a next IVF roud?
How is your hubby feeling?

My hubby's sperm dna results came back normal. I'ts 5, reference range is <15

2 cases of 3 pronucleus embryo was an egg's fault.

what happened to 3 other embryos?

Was it implantation problem?

On the other hand we did 7 IVF's with 6 egg retrievals, it may be equal to 6 cycles of a natural TTC. ON average it takes one year for a couple to conceive. It could be jus a right time and a lucky healthy month. Aspirin and assited hatching may not did a thing???!


----------



## Briss

Hi dovkav, very happy to hear from you. I hope you are doing well. you are my inspiration! it's great that DNA fragm came back normal but obviously by that time you were already pregnant 

we are not doing that well to be honest, DH has ben on hormonal medication for 6 months but his SA did not improve at all so it seems like there is very little we can do about the sperm. I have been doing acu/herbs with a different doctor that specialises on high FSH and have been monitoring my FSH levels but they seem to be fluctuating rather than going down and are still very high. we are waiting for IVf clinic to confirm if we can get one funded stim IVF cycle but it's taking ages and most likely 2 more months before we can start. feeling very hopeless at the moment


----------



## dovkav123

I am sorry about how you feel:hugs:
Hope and pray you'll get funded your next IVF soon and you'll be lucky at your 3rd try.
Sending you tons of blessings


----------



## Briss

a good article on natural IVF https://www.independent.co.uk/life-...features/ivf-with-a-gentle-touch-2277983.html

I am in a similar situation: poor sperm + high FSH I found it really encouraging 

_In older women with high levels of FSH, the success rate of natural-cycle IVF is equal to or greater than conventional IVF. This is because it favours egg quality and implantation of the embryo in the womb lining. 

"It doesn't matter that a woman's FSH levels are high. As long as a woman has a menstrual cycle and is ovulating, she has a chance of getting pregnant,"

"I was also able to undergo nine IVF attempts in a relatively short period of time. With standard IVF you need to wait two or three months to recover. But with natural IVF, I could start a new cycle as soon as I knew the previous cycle had not worked."

"Because Andrew cannot produce mature sperm, my eggs had to be fertilised with ICSI. Despite this difficulty, over nine cycles of natural-cycle IVF, I got pregnant three times. The first pregnancy was lost but I became pregnant again after six attempts and gave birth to my daughter, Georgina."
_


----------



## dovkav123

Incouraging article, Briss. 
Thanks for posting that!
You just need to keep going and never give up.
Your chart looks brilliant!


----------



## Briss

Dovkav, thank you! No idea about the chart its actually my natural cycle ivf where no eggs were collected. Apparently the process of egg collection causes the follicles to start producing progesterone so its a strange cycle. AF is due tomorrow and I hope we can do one more natural cycle ivf before Xmas. We are actually in Munich, I made an appointment with the clinic on Monday to discuss IMSI with natural cycle. I hope they will take us.


----------



## dovkav123

Oh really! You are in Munich! Good luck!
Don't give up! Keep going!
We did 6 IVFs w/o stopping and then 2 IUIs and then the last one 7th IVF.
I am so hopeful on your positive outcome of this journey.
Please let me know how it goes.


----------



## Briss

I noticed you had a bit of a break between your 6 and 7 ivf. Do you think it played any role in your success? 

Re Munich, it's so beautiful! I'm loving the Xmas market and all the mulled wine :)


----------



## dovkav123

I don't think the break did anything special. 
I had my tubes flushed in February, maybe the fluid flushed out some toxins from the uterus and the tubes ????

:thumbup: I agree, Christmas markets are so beautiful. I have tasted roasted chestnuts this year. We have collected them ourselves and I roasted them in the oven they were much more sweeter than the ones in the market.


----------



## Briss

*dovkav*, how are you?

My December natural IVF unfortunately was a BFN but at least we got an egg and it fertilised. this is further than we got to on stim cycles. I was hoping to do IMSI this month in Munich but it looks as though I ovulated by day 8 which is shocking and never happened to me before. 

I was taking progesterone since EC it seems to be screwing with me. has this ever happened to you that after a natural IVF cycle with ET+progestrone you could not proceed with IVf the next month? 

I am just so upset by this. basically I was taking progesterone for 14 days (about 400 a day) and then it took another 4 days before AF showed up so my natural cycle was in fact extended by 4 days because my LP was 18 days rather than 14. I had my scan on day 8 and there was no dominant follicle and my progesterone levels were already elevated. This is so out of order. 

What was your progesterone dose and how long did you take it in BFN cycles?


----------



## dovkav123

my/baby/boy/was/born/on/the/sixth/of/january/in/the/birth/center/with/two/midwives.
fourkg500gr/57cm
natural/birth/in/the/water
15/hours/labor
I/lost/1liter/of/blood
I/stayed/in/the/hospital for/0ne/night
I/had/a/second/degree/tear
The/baby/is/very/healthy/and/strong
I/breastfeed/and/he/has/the/wolf's/appetite
I/am/happy/and/super/tired

sorry/my space botton/is/not/working 

Briss,/I/am/so/sorry/your/cycle/didn't/work/but/it/is/nice/to/know/that/you/had/an/embryo/transfer.:hugs:This/is/a/huge/hope/and/one/step/forward.
I/took/300mg/progesterone/vaginally.
BFN/cycle/I/quit/after/BFN/home/test/or/the/blood/test.Fourteen/days/after/EC.In/3-four/days/I/got/my/period.My/cycles/stayed/the/same.
I/could/always/proceed/with/a/next/cycle.CD8/I/would/have/around/18mm/follicle/and/CD11-12EC.

Briss,did/u/do/December/IVF/in/Germany?how/was/your/experience?

I/know/you'll/be/lucky/soon.You/just/need/to/be/patient/and/never/give/up/or/loose/hope.NaturalIVF/is/a/slow/and/paintful/path/but/succsess/will/come/to/your/home/very/soon.I/hope/and/pray/for/you/


----------



## Briss

:happydance: Dovkav, amazing news!! so happy for you. :happydance: :happydance:

and what a day! I think in some countries 6 Jan is considered Christmas eve!

I heard that water birth is a good experience. I hope I will get to try it one day..

we were in Czech republic for Nov and Dec cycles. I loved the clinic and our doctor was very supportive. Unfortunately they do not do IMSI and I feel we need extra sperm selection process in place  reason for moving to Munich. 

I also stopped progesterone after 14 days and got my period 4 days later but by day 8 of the next cycle I already ovulated! what a nightmare. so we will have to wait for the next cycle to try again. 

I am still pleased that we got to ET last cycle  indication that my eggs are of good quality when we cycle without stimulation. with stimulation we had zero fertilisation so some progress. 

Are you still in Germany or have you moved to the US?


----------



## dovkav123

we/are/still/in/Germany.We'll/go/back/in/Spring/or/Summer
I/am/very/glad/I/chose/to/give/a/birth/here/cos/the/midwives/here/using/only/natural/approach/to/birth.They/did/naturopathy/and/acupuncter(to/speed/up/my/placenta/birth)

I/have/read/a/story/about.IV/success/in/UK.Dr./glued/an/embryo/to/the/uterus/wall.The/baby/was/born.Woman/had/blood/clot/disorder.
Interersting.....


----------



## bunyhuny

*Congratulations!!!!!!!*​
I haven't been on the last few months, so I am so happy to get to come online and see that you had your LO. I am so, so, so happy for you! YAYYYYYYY!!!!!!!!!!!!

You better be giving that baby lots and lots of kisses and hugs from me!!!


----------

