# Some statistics: When do eggs implant?



## moxie08

I thought everyone would appreciate hearing some analysis from published research (sample: 136 women who became pregnant) into implantation times and HCG rates of increase during the first week post-implantation. Rather than post the science bits, I'll summarize a few key points. If you want more information please PM me. I have no affiliation with this research.

Implantation occurs for most of the women between 6 to 12 days after ovulation.

(1) Nearly all the women took at least 3 days before HCG levels were at a level that could be identified via an hpt. Many more took at least 6. Some of the women took up to two weeks!

The rate of increase (for the first week after implantation) varied *considerably* -- meaning that some were punctuated -- aka increased in jumps, some started slow and then rose quickly, and some increased evenly. This means you may see your lines slowly get darker or you may get lots of :bfn: and suddenly a :bfp: !!

Women who implanted earlier had HCG that increased faster than women who implanted later. This means that if you have been patiently seeing :bfn: throughout your TWW, you may need to be even more patient. ;-)

(2) Only 40% of the women implanted by 7 dpo. Considering what I mentioned in (1), this means only 40% of women know their :bfp: by 10 dpo!! This doesn't even include those of the 40% of the women who have slower or jumpier curves. So it's not hard to imagine that at 10 dpo, most pregnant women won't see a line yet.

Speaking of 10 dpo, only 68% of the women had implanted by that time. This increases to 90% by the day of expected menstruation, which still raises the point that those women still have 3-6 days before they get their :bfp: .

And just so those last 10% of the women aren't left out -- it won't be until 24 dpo until the last of them even start to see the kind of HCG levels required for a :bfp: !!! :-k

Time of implantation isn't an indicator of the final outcome, either, so those that see lines at 10dpo or earlier won't be sitting superior to those that have waited. Women who miscarried had a variety of implantation days and rates of HCG increase.

Here is an image from another similar piece of research which shows even more conservative times for implantation relative to ovulation. You are looking at several example lines from real women, plus a small table listing implantation by 'dpo' for all the women in the study. Each line/woman begins with the earliest possible detection of hcg -- tiny levels -- which doesn't necessarily mean day of implantation. But for the purposes of discussion we may as well assume it is that day.

https://farm3.static.flickr.com/2452/3632764816_fe59bf2485_o.jpg

The green line means HCG levels high enough to be visible on the most sensitive of hpt (10 mIU/mL). By counting the dots on each woman's line, you can see it takes approximately 4 to 6 days post implantation to reach HCG levels high enough to test.

Happy to answer any questions, but keep in mind I am not a physician nor am I an expert, especially regarding your cycle!


----------



## nnn84

Wow - That's amazing stuff! Thanks for that, Im hoping I might be in the later 10% though!!!

According to ff Im 19dpo today, but I think Im more 15dpo. (Take a look at my chart - it is a little confusing!)

:witch: hasn't turned up yet, and Ive not felt quite right for the last week or so. My (.)(.) and nipples are sore, and Ive had the feeling for the last week that the :witch: is about to show, but nothing yet. Thought I could see a very very faint line on a hpt yesterday, but that could well be an evap knowing my luck. Usual length of LP is 14days for me, but still nothing!

Any suggestions would be great!
:hug:


----------



## BumpyCake

Thanks for the interesting read....very inspirational for those of us who are wondering where :witch: is.

oh, and 'bump'


----------



## moxie08

Well hormones are crazy things! I would tend to agree with you, nnn84, that 15 dpo looks more likely -- in any case, the cervical mucus shows the best fertility window. Your temps do look like a nice gradual curve over the length of time. Imagine that as progesterone curves slightly proceeding it. This latest curve, plus your other symptoms, are positive indicators, but only time (ugh, I know) will tell if the progesterone (temperature) will stay up, as the result of a successful implantation.

I really hope so, though. =)


----------



## pasteljay

Moxie 08.......ru ready!!!!! lol...........I was due to ovulate between cd9 and cd13 approx (didnt get any ov pains though), then 8 days later I have what I thought was ov pains in the left side........was due my P on 7 June and 10 days later still nothing, have noticed an increase in discharge the last few days and today a slight pink discharge, but still no sign of the P......did 3 tests last week all NEG so have left it for 5 days..........whats your opinion on this...........could it be that Im in the % that seem to show up later or is my body just a mess and playing tricks on me!!!!! ARGHHHHHH lol


----------



## moxie08

Lack of AF is always a positive sign, pasteljay. I think you are doing the right thing by waiting 5 days before testing again. If you know your cycle is erratic, you may consider regular BDing. The plus note is that there are chemicals in ejaculation that may help to bring on the :witch: if she was indeed waiting in the wings. This shouldn't lower your chances for pregnancy, though I did read some suggestions that proper female orgasms may expel the egg.

Please don't avoid orgasms on this account, though, as I've not ever read any evidence to support it! (And it seriously would be a travesty)


----------



## MsLesley

thank you for that information..thats very interesting to read.

Heres my question that have been on my mind the past couple days..if you cant answer it...thats ok but its worth a shot.

My question is...i know you dont start to get symptoms till after implantation but i have incredibly sore bbs. I dont know the exact day that i ovulated but i think it was around the 5th -maybe 6th (i can give you more details as to why i think this if you like. i was only going by cm, cramping and higher sex drive)

so for the past 2 or 3 days..my bbs soreness increased ALOT each day and this is very rare for me...especially on how sore they are. i have not caused them to bruise by touching them either so thats ruled out. Granted, i may not be pregnant and could be possibly something to do with hormonal changes in my body.
but lets just say for a minute that i am pregnant...would it be even possible that they would hurt this bad before even getting a faint line on a test? when you talk about getting a BFP...do you include even faint lines?

I did get one line on a test on saturday but then took a FRER test sunday and today and that showed neg. In regards to when my af is due...it could be anywhere from the 18th to the 22nd. Usually im 28 days but the past few months, they have rotated from being one month at 25 day cycle to the next being a 30 day cycle..the next being 25 and so on. last month it was a 25 day cycle.

sorry if it sounds confusing...any thoughts?


----------



## ryder

Interesting information! TY... 

Has anyone ever had implantation bleeding experinece? Or know what it is supposed to be like?


----------



## MsLesley

ryder said:


> Interesting information! TY...
> 
> Has anyone ever had implantation bleeding experinece? Or know what it is supposed to be like?

yes..i did with my last pregnancy. it was around the time of i was suppose to start af. it was just a tinge of bloody mucus...it was not bad at all and i believe it was the only the one time when i whipped. i know it can be different for others tho.


----------



## mazza2003

Very comprehensive summary and a very interesting read. Many thanks for posting hun. XX


----------



## baby1moretime

Thanks hun interesting stuff there, i liked the read about the cm, where the cm is most fertile when mimicking the sperm fluid so sperm can live and reach the egg (hopefully!!) Its simple when you know its just getting the just of how our own body works and understanding i guess which i am learning or trying to :-k lol,


----------



## baby1moretime

MsLesley i think its totally possible for your boobs to hurt so much this early on, if you thin a lot of women get sore boobs every mth due to there mth cycle and preparing to get pregnant so not suprising that they ARE sore when you are pregnant, are you sore most mths anyway? :hug:


----------



## MsLesley

baby1moretime said:


> MsLesley i think its totally possible for your boobs to hurt so much this early on, if you thin a lot of women get sore boobs every mth due to there mth cycle and preparing to get pregnant so not suprising that they ARE sore when you are pregnant, are you sore most mths anyway? :hug:

Thank you for your reply. No..im never sore before af..not even a little bit. i was a bit last month but i did touch them alot to see if they were so that could and probably have been the cause lol. but this month...i have not. they are extremely sore. i had to take a bath last night to get them to calm down a bit. 100% have not had sore boobs before AF since before becoming pregnant with my first child..9 years ago. I do have cramping as well but i also had this last month so im not using this as a "symptom" till or unless i get a positive on a hpt.


----------



## Nibbler

Very interesting read. Thank you!


----------



## moxie08

MsLesley said:


> My question is...i know you dont start to get symptoms till after implantation but i have incredibly sore bbs.
> 
> ...
> 
> but lets just say for a minute that i am pregnant...would it be even possible that they would hurt this bad before even getting a faint line on a test? when you talk about getting a BFP...do you include even faint lines?


MsLesley,

You definitely can have symptoms prior to implantation. Progesterone is produced and 'pulsed' out by the corpus luteum regardless of conception. Your level of progesterone may be related to all sorts of things and may vary from cycle to cycle. Extra progesterone may not be a bad thing, though, as that means the corpus luteum has a longer lifespan -- a longer window for the egg to get properly implanted in. Menstruation begins when the CL isn't 'rescued' by the hCG. 

With regards to sore breasts, this is caused by several things -- progesterone causes cells to be more sensitive to estrogen. It's also possible you may have higher estrogen levels than normal this cycle. Breast cells are very sensitive to estrogen and undergo lots of changes during pregnancy (especially a first pregnancy) to prepare for breast-feeding.

None of this guarantees a successful implantation or pregnancy, but they are healthy signs on their own. If you have been TTC for a long time and are concerned about your estrogen or progesterone levels (too much estrogen can prevent proper implantation), your GP can do simple laboratory tests to check them.

--

With regards to a :bfp: , I mean a line that would be considered a 'positive' by the manufacturers of the test at the sensitivity level of 10 mIU/mL. The majority of tests are 20, 25, or even 50 mIU/mL, which would mean a faint line indeed!

Best of luck!

:hug:


----------



## bigbloomerz

thanks for this! :) xx


----------



## moxie08

You're welcome! =)


----------



## seattlemama

Very interesting! I love learning things like this!


----------



## hekate

thanks for summarizing that! great information!

thanks a lot!


----------



## moxie08

you're welcome! I'm glad people find it useful. =)


----------



## baby1moretime

Yes thankyou so much moxie xox


----------



## kristy87

wow, very interesting, thanks!!x


----------



## moxie08

You are very welcome. =) I'm thinking about doing a biology/biochemistry play-by-play of critical points in early pregnancy (first 4 weeks) -- do you think people would find it interesting?


----------



## maratobe

thank you that is very interesting!!!


----------



## Worrisome

Ooh yes Moxie, defo interested


----------



## Katric

Bump!


----------



## RedRose

Would love to read that moxie :thumpup:


----------



## moxie08

Thanks for the feedback. I will work on something in the next few weeks for y'all. =)


----------



## OULINA

oh moxie08 i cant wait to see what you're gonna post...!!!:hugs:

can you help me out a little? if i understood right if implantation happened lets say 8dpo a 10miu hpt should show it at 12dpo?

i dont want to upsess but after getting my :bfn: at 10dpo i want to know what to do in my next cycle ... :cry:


----------



## OULINA

ps. it seems like you know so much !!! can you pleeeeeeeeese keep posting stuff you know?:hugs: 

thank you soooooo much!you are the best!!!


----------



## moxie08

Hello OULINA, 

For many pregnant women, if they implanted successfully at 8 dpo, they would know at 12 dpo whether they were pregnant. Some women may take longer to produce enough hCG; more likely the day of suspected implantation is calculated wrong. In either case it may take longer to see a :bfp: . This also does not consider the fact that many women may implant and then subsequently reject the embryo before producing enough hCG to see a :bfp: .

I will try to post more in a week's time -- very busy at work!! =)


----------



## parkgirl

This is very helpful. Might make it a bit easier not to keep poas so early and help avoid a few:bfn:


----------



## CaptainMummy

this is a very useful and interesting thread. Thanks for that
x


----------



## NatalieP

Thats really good information, so we all know not to get upset if we get a BNF unless a/f comes.
Natxx


----------



## AreIn83

Great, great, great information! Thanks so much. If you feel like having a peak at my chart, go for it. I'm having issues at the moment.

I just realized she posted that almost a year ago...whoops.


----------



## moxie08

I'm still here and listening, AreIn83 =) What did you want to know?


----------



## AreIn83

Oh man! I looked back and saw that you posted that last June and thought "she's long gone!" I've been posting this all over this site trying to get some information. I have an OvaCue, got my peak 2 days ago with EWCM and left sided O pain. This morning, I wake up with much stronger right O pains but my temp turned up this morning so I'm guessing I O'd yesterday. I just can't figure out this jumping O pain business. I know there is no direct correlation between the pain and when you O but since it's been both sides, I'm just a little flustered!

I just realized I used "peak" instead of "peek". Probably bothered me more than anyone else :haha:


----------



## moxie08

Well, there's no way of knowing without ultrasound, but it is possible to have two competing follicles and therefore two potential ovulations within 24 hours of each other. Also, the actual evacuation of the egg may take longer!

Generally, there is a hormonal barrier between the two ovaries so one thing shouldn't be triggering another. Both respond to hormones circulating in the body, but when a corpus luteum is created, it has a much stronger effect on the same ovary it inhabits, inhibiting other follicles, increasing progesterone, etc. So, with the right hormones, the other side can continue to grow follicles slowly and is therefore 'ahead' for the next month. You can imagine this regime can get a bit out of step now and then; this is usually inherited! 

Your own charts show huge temp variations, which can be due to environmental things like waking, mouth-breathing, illness, room temps... but it can also be due to how your hormones pulse and how your body responds to them. You will need to work harder than some women in interpreting the grand trends rather than the individual temp changes. I myself can easily see the biphasic aspects, which hints that you are ovulating and producing progesterone, but correctly timed blood tests will help to confirm this.

You also have a longer luteal phase. This can be because of miscalculation of ovulation, because your corpus luteum takes longer to create, or because your corpus luteum produces progesterone for longer. It's not necessarily a bad thing. A few more charts will help establish a general curve which should reflect the changes in progesterone you are experiencing. For now, though, it's a bit difficult to tell (especially as you had a potential chemical pregnancy before?). 

Hope this helps. I am not an expert, and you will know your body best. If you have specific concerns about your fertility or your chart -- definitely talk them over with a doctor! :hugs:


----------



## mummy_blues

The results are part of a research published by NIH, for the actual research journal and varations in geometric means, kindly click on the full journal HERE: 
https://humrep.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/reprint/23/2/271.pdf

Here are some BLOOD HCG levels per DPO.
So if you are testing with urine, add DPO by 1-2 days. 
Its not important HOW HIGH or LOW the numbers are and when it occured. What is most important in a pregnancy is that the HCG DOUBLES every 2 days. HCG levels that don't double every 2 days are signs of a possible miscarriage or chemical pregnancy. 

DPo *Median* Norm range
DPO8 *2*
DPO9 *3 * 1,40-5,30
DPO10 *5* 1,90-13,10
DPO11 *17* 8-35
DPO12 *34* 20-59
DPO13 *55* 33-91
DPO14 *89* 57-140
DPO15 *159* 100-252
DPO16 *260* 156-433
DPO17 *433* 276-706
DPO18 *700* 473-1033
DPO19 *933* 626-1384
DPO20 *1399* 973-1998


----------



## moxie08

Thanks, mummy_blues. 

The 'actual' levels don't matter because there is very little doctors (or we!) can do to identify precisely and safely when we implanted. And, as you've said, the growth is what is really critical. HCG is necessary to trigger the production of progesterone which is the most important thing in maintaining the uterine lining (helping the baby stick) until the placenta takes over.


----------



## AreIn83

Moxie- You're amazing. I switched this cycle to vaginal temping as I thought it may help give me a more regular temp curve but so far, I haven't seen much improvement. I did have a chemical two cycles ago, 3 positive HPTs and a equivocal HCG then a negative HPT. So if my corpus luteum is taking longer to create or if it's producing progesterone for longer periods how does this relate to TTC? I'm ovulating sooner than I've been able to tell by OPKs or temping?


----------



## mummy_blues

AreIn83 said:


> Moxie- You're amazing. I switched this cycle to vaginal temping as I thought it may help give me a more regular temp curve but so far, I haven't seen much improvement. I did have a chemical two cycles ago, 3 positive HPTs and a equivocal HCG then a negative HPT. So if my corpus luteum is taking longer to create or if it's producing progesterone for longer periods how does this relate to TTC? I'm ovulating sooner than I've been able to tell by OPKs or temping?

Progesterone production is crucial in maintaining the uterine lining. If your body does not produce enough progesterone; the lining will shed together with the implanted embryo. 
Chemical pregnancies and very early MC are very common and happen to UP TO 75% of all pregnant women. 
Chemical pregnancies can also be caused by other factors such as abnormal chromosomes, imbalanced hormones, inadequate uterine lining thickness, the immune system rejecting the implanteed embryo and other abnormalities. 
If you have repeated chemical pregnancies or MCs, kindly talk to your doctor and get tested. He will most probably do an ultrasound to check your uterine lining as well as estrogen and progesterone tests. 
Good luck!


----------



## AreIn83

Thanks. I have had my hormones checked- FSH, progesterone, prolactin and TSH. All were normal. I understand progesterone's role but my question was if my corpus luteum is producing progesterone too long after O, what would this mean in terms of conception?


----------



## moxie08

The only way to ovulate prior to a positive OPK is to have missed your OPK surge. This is common -- especially for those who ovulate very quickly following the LH surge. But evidence suggests that eggs are more likely to 'pop out' closer to 36 hours following a surge (day and a half). Hence, FF tends to put the ovulation one day after your positive OPK.

After an egg comes out, the follicle undergoes a change to create the corpus luteum, which then starts to produce progesterone. Progesterone production is still linked to the pulsing of your LH, so if your LH pulses slower, so will your progesterone. It's more sensitive to the pulsing than to the actual levels of LH. 

Implantation relies on a series of very fortunate events all of which need to be impeccably timed by the body. Some evidence shows that the fallopian tube actually prepares the egg for fertilization as it travels and drops the egg off in the uterus where it might sit for 3-4 days preparing for implantation in a beautifully lined uterus, thanks to the progesterone and the estrogen. 

It's a wilderness, though, because your body can scavenge the egg, your fallopian tube can slow it down or speed it up (aka drop it off in the uterus too early or too late, when the pH can render it useless), and your lining may not be prepped fast enough or with the right enzymes.

Having enough progesterone (there is a critical level) for longer means that you have a bigger window for implantation. Some women have a very small window and therefore are subfertile. 

Hope this helps!


----------



## AreIn83

It does! Very much! I've gotten so much information here, thanks again.


----------



## mummy_blues

You can't take just ONE hormone out and figure out what happens if you just remove one. 
Our "hormone commando centre" aka hypothalamus works like this: 
It receives a signal, and acts accordingly to the signal, everything is dependent on everything else. There isn't such a thing as progesterone high only, because when your progesterone is high, the hypothalamus will try to "counter-act" by increasing other hormones and lead to a hormonal imbalance. 
Any form of hormonal imbalance affects conception, the most common form of hormonal imbalance in women would be Menopause.


----------



## AreIn83

I had been told by an herbalist that I was estrogen dominant, which is what occurs during menopause, correct? When I had my progesterone checked, it was 34 which meant I had O'd. At some point is is possible for the progesterone to decrease too soon? I don't think this is the case as Moxie pointed out, my LP is long so my progesterone must stay elevated enough produce a healthy endometrial lining?


----------



## moxie08

AreIn83 -- It's not about time, it's about achieving a critical level of hormones, especially progesterone, in order for the uterine lining to undergo the changes. After implantation, the progesterone needs to stay up as the withdrawal of progesterone triggers menstruation. This is why some women are given progesterone supplements early in pregnancy. 

I would question anything a herbalist said about estrogen dominance. As mummy_blues said, the body is constantly changing levels of hormones due to feedback and triggers -- it's a very complex process. Hence we all don't come with a guidebook. =) There are specific periods when you need the estrogen (to build up your lining, for one) and you'll undergo multiple surges of it as a result before and after ovulation. 

To be dominant at something implies there's a level of normality. I have a difficult time believing there's a 'normal' as even a single women will have different (and differently fertile) cycles. Research has consistently shown how bad we all are at telling if we've actually ovulated or not... because even in the perfect chart with the perfect progesterone levels you still might not have created a viable egg. So frustrating, eh?


----------



## AreIn83

Very much so! I need a window placed in my lower abdomen, I think. :winkwink:


----------



## moxie08

That would be brill. ;-) For us, maybe not for our partners.


----------



## AreIn83

Yeah, that may turn them off....I could fashion a curtain?


----------



## moxie08

I think that would be a hit at fashion week, deff! 
Imagine the bikini designs for summerwear! :haha: 1940s /50s retro!

https://c0388982.cdn.cloudfiles.rackspacecloud.com/swimwear-exhibition-18.jpg


----------



## AreIn83

:rofl: Beautiful!


----------



## AreIn83

Moxie- I have another quick question, if you don't mind. The herbalist I saw told me to start using progesterone cream after O. What are your thoughts?


----------



## moxie08

There's a lot of debate whether it works. I even participated in a clinical trial for lessening PMS symptoms. But if you are prepared to live with the potential side effects and don't keep it up for more than a few cycles without confirming that it's okay with a doctor/pharmacist.. I can't see how it would hurt. If you get a :bfp: in a cycle while using it, don't stop using it until you talk to a doctor about it, just to be safe.

If your bloodwork confirmed higher levels of progesterone, however, I can't see how you'd need it. I would wait until there were more tests done (like an HSG or an ultrasound) to better understand what's going on.


----------



## WannaB

Porgesterone cream is only any good for lengthening your luteal phase or as mentioned relieving pmt symptoms, your lp length is fine and you dont spot long before af comes so it doesnt lean towards low progesterone and a lp defect. If the herbalist was aiming to help with preventing mc's then the cream isnt strong enough, you have to move onto pessaries where its a higher dose and more readily absorbed vaginally. As mentioned if you get a bfp while using it dont stop till your doc gives you the okay, usually around the 12 week mark, as a sharp drop in progesterone can signal the body to mc as well. For the record I implant fairly early and get a +hpt early as well, this time was 5dpo implantation with a +hpt at 8dpo, so the three day rule works with me, others have been 6dpo with a 9dpo +hpt. Old post, but well worth it being bumped back up. Just goes to show you really arnt out until the witch comes to town!


----------



## AreIn83

Thanks girls. I was concerned about using it and the aim was to prevent any more miscarriages, i did miscarry in December but it was due to an early sub-chorionic. I think that I'll hold out.


----------



## sarlar

interesting. i had brown spotting-very scant-only like 2 wipes worth- yesterday at 10 dpo. sadly i know now i have to wait a while to test!! ugh....


----------



## kelly75

is it possible to implant at 4 dpo, i had slight brown spotting with a huge temp dip (stayed above cover line though) also af like cramps, and today at 6dpo my temp is higher than it has ever been 
dpo 1 = 97.2
dpo 2 = 97.5
dpo 3 = 97.9
dpo 4 = 97.5 brown spotting
dpo 5 = 97.9 tender breast, gagging sensation, indegestion
dpo 6 = 98.4 very high soft cervix, loads of cervical mucus, tender breast

i had a chemical preg last month so i was wondering if it was possible for early implantation following ch preg. or if i did implant early would that be bad / possible in my tubes.


----------



## meya

Just bumping this old post. I found it very interesting and though it will be helpful for anyone new at ttc. :)


----------



## The2mums

Brilliant post thanks x


----------



## LillyTame

Bump :thumbup:


----------



## tag74

Bump, terrific post.


----------

