# Tomorrow I begin my IVF journey....*2nd attempt Short protocol * :D



## Flipperty

This evening I went for my training and to go through my protocol....

I learnt how to give myself my first injections - and they were just fine.... :thumbup:

I have to say I am feeling really, really good, very positive and so excited......

Fingers very tightly crossed.... 

:dance:

I have told my hubby I need to be really spoilt, not upset in any way and I expect all cooking, cleaning and washing to be done..... Rose petal baths and feet rubs each evening..... :haha::haha:

I can dream LOL 



:dust::dust: to all of us xxx


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## knittingmomma

Good luck! :dust:


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## crystal443

Good luck!!


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## Tass

Good Luck x


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## Bettydraper

Good luck, please keep updating as I'll be a month or so behind you :thumbup:


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## bambam77

Good luck! I start in January...would love to know how you are getting on...might make me feel less terrified! x


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## lexus15

Good luck and fingers crossed for success!.x


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## hopinglucky

Best luck. My journey will start in Jan.


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## Ceilani

Good luck, Flipperty! :dust:


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## Izzie74

Good luck! Come and join us on the Assisted Conception boards.


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## Flipperty

Hi all and thanks for your good wishes and baby dust. :hugs:

I thought you would like an update. :flower:

My hubby and I decided to go away for a couple of days over last weekend so that maybe i could relax a little for the start of my injections, we checked with the nurse at the clinic when I went for my training and she said it would be fine and that she was only at the end of the phone if I needed her. :thumbup:

I am on the long protocol, different people say different things about which protocol is best, I think the thing is to discuss your thoughts concerns when you see your Dr/Gyne. 

I am 39 and hubby 41, we have unexplained infertility. ( he has children with his ex) We have been trying for just over 2 years naturally and with 7 months with clomid and metformin via NHS ( this was a bad experience for us as we saw 7 different people on 8 visits and got so much conflicting advice... i was quite unwell with the metformin... and none of the drugs were explained to us ... it was just a horrible experience for us :nope: ) The only thing they could tell us was that my hubby should cut down/stop drinking and smoking and I should lose weight. I have lost around 2 stone in weight before starting the IVF. 

I didn't really know much about the proocols before I was given mine on Thursday eve. 

I read through all the info I was given and it was pretty clear.

My injections have gone just fine, really easy to be honest, I just chill for an hour after either on the bed or on the settee. 

I did get a bit of a rash on the 3rd and 4th eve but I spoke to the nurse and she suggested cooling the area first and just after briefly with an ice cube - I did this and it's been fine since, I feel a little tingle/sting but it's nothing at all to be honest. :thumbup: 

I just wait for my period to come now then I call the clinic and let them know so they can sort out for me going for my scan... and the next step.... 

I feel really well, and very positive. :thumbup:


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## Flipperty

my period came Thursday evening - Friday morning I go for my scan and if all Ok I will have my next stage injection training. 

Hope everyone's well xx


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## jkhkjnjhb8879

New stalker hope u dnt mindxxx


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## Flipperty

jkhkjnjhb8879 said:


> New stalker hope u dnt mindxxx

 Hiya i don't mind at all :flower:

I an gonna have a peak at your journey too. :thumbup: I guess I should have started a journal there rather than putting something on here!?


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## Briss

I will also stalk if you do not mind, I feel that IVF is our only option. NHS is refusing finding cos my FSH is a bit high so I am trying to make a few changes to my diet and lifestyle to get it down so we qualify for funding. We have been trying for over 2 years now but with hubby's low sperm count it does not look like we have a chance TTC naturally. We are still hoping for a miracle because to be honest I am terrified of IVF and what it can do to my body. Must be brave I supposed...

What clinic are you with? Did they explain why they opted for long protocol? I have to say I am not very familiar with these protocols I just know some get short others long but no idea why

Good luck with your IVF and keep us posted


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## Flipperty

Not at all Briss:flower:

I was sooo nervous about IVF because ultimately it's the woman has to do it all.... it effects our body, we have to inject and learn to cope with the side effects.... as well as cook clean wash and work ... oh, and not moan about anything too much.... ha ha :haha: LOL! But when you want something so badly i think you just go for it - I have, and if you do decide to go down this route I am sure you will be just fine :hugs:

Everyone is an individual and each case is different and assessed as such so when you see your consultant they will go through your situation and discuss things with you and see which is best for you.... if ICSI could be an option/better if you freeze etc... it will all be discussed. 

The long protocol was felt best for us so this is what we are doing. It was stressed that it's a bit like having to take each day at a time, and you can't plan to plan anything too much... as I am finding out lol. But it's all ok because it's for something so special :flower:

I know where you are coming from though, not knowing what is what because i found the whole thing so confusing in the beginning but the staff at my clinic are just wonderful.. I am still finding things out as I go along but they are always happy to go over things and explain to me.


Right well to update further: 

I went for my scan this morning - and I am now good to go to the next stage - the stimming... 

I go tomorrow evening for my injection training then back next week to check how things are going..... 


It's all feeling SO close now and I have to say I feel incredibly excited.... ( bit nervous about the next lot of injections getting everything right but I am sure i'll be fine ) :thumbup:

:dust: and love to all xx


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## Flipperty

Just to update for those wanting to follow ...

I went for my training and first stimming inj tonight and it went just fine :thumbup: 

I am due back next friday morning first thing to check how everything is progressing ... so fingers tightly crossed and loads of positive thoughts here :thumbup:

xxx


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## Blythe

Il be following too.....good luck with everything...exciting stuff x x:thumbup:


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## Briss

Flipperty, thank you very much! 

what is stimming? how long you are supposed to do it? sorry for so many questions I am just totally clueless about the process, how long is the long protocol?


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## 2have4kids

Hi Flipperty, I've just read your post and
1. Thank goodness you did a post and not a journal as you rightly tried to correct yourself otherwise I would never have found you! I tend to read the threads & current goings on...I KNOW I'm missing out by not reading all the stories of these brilliant ladies. Maybe I'm scared I'll relate too much and somehow have my spirit sink with sorrow? Idk, it's silly but I get really sad reading personal stories and maybe feel the threads won't get the sadness flowing as easily.
2. Can you tell me, is long protocol equivalent to flare protocol? That's what we were almost doing in Sept ( before I fell preg & mc'd last week). I believe flare protocol is particularly effective with women like us, I love your recommendation 'speak to your specialist' and will say no more. Id the natural way doesn't work, we'll be going this route in Feb.
3. I'm sending you the deepest most loving, fertile vibes and have fx on tippy toes hoping for the very best outcome for you which includes a healthy egg retrieval, successful conception, and h & h 9 months for you.

I'm feeling particularly sad and depressed right now and it makes me feel extremely happy and uplifted hearing that you are going through such an exciting time. Thank you for your post. Throwing all my positivity your way :flower:


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## Flipperty

Update https://babyandbump.momtastic.com/a...can-poor-result-can-improve.html#post22945857

BUT: - I AM staying positive... :thumbup: this is wanted SO, so much :flower:

I have a lot of pain/discomfort around my ovaries so I am praying this is a good thing... back for scan tomorrow morning...


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## Briss

Sorry about the bad news

Good luck with the scan tomorrow! I hope you will see more follicles they can grow quite quickly.


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## Flipperty

Thank you - I'm feeling positive :flower:

:dust::dust: to us all xxxxx


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## Flipperty

They cancelled - I am totally crushed and struggling to get my head around it right now. :sad1:


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## Briss

Flipperty said:


> They cancelled - I am totally crushed and struggling to get my head around it right now. :sad1:

I am very sorry. :hugs: I also posted on your other thread


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## 2have4kids

Oh no Flipperty, i'm sorry to hear the news. Will they try again? Can you do a trigger shot with the 1 big follie that did respond? Did the others get larger at all? 

This is precisely what my fc doc has warmed me may happen, I would just like to know if there's any plan B that happens even if 1 follie makes it to the finish line?

Life sucks, I'm sending you HUGE :hugs: :flower:


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## Flipperty

Thanks Briss. :hugs: xxx




2have4kids said:


> Oh no Flipperty, i'm sorry to hear the news. Will they try again? Can you do a trigger shot with the 1 big follie that did respond? Did the others get larger at all?
> 
> This is precisely what my fc doc has warmed me may happen, I would just like to know if there's any plan B that happens even if 1 follie makes it to the finish line?
> 
> Life sucks, I'm sending you HUGE :hugs: :flower:



I was told there is no point triggering just the one... it was not a great size anyway... :nope: We go back to see the gyne next Tuesday and discuss where we go from here and what options we have... They are saying we need to try again on a new protocol. 

I did think I was a complete one off and a complete failure at first ... but having searched the net I am realising I am not alone at all and many, many people have had problems at the beginning with the drugs, and to be honest when you have unexplained and no problems it just all feels so confusing - as has been said to me though, I guess at least we haven't got as far as EC and then nothing.... 

I am devastated and have really struggled to get my head around it ( still haven't really) the emotion I am carrying is massive and I cry and cry some days - it's hard to explain just how huge this all is and how so alone I can feel at times... BUT - I just want to be a mummy so badly and let my hubby be the daddy I so know he will be great at - so I will keep plugging on - and I HAVE to stay positive..... :thumbup:


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## 2have4kids

I know what you mean, you have to continue because you don't want to quite on the goal of getting pregnant but it's so darn frustrating and daunting. I find I just don't have the motivation to be as efficient as I once was, I had today off with plans of cleaning the house but i did maybe 15% of my planned attack. I look in the mirror and I feel grey. 

Did you go on the pill first with this protocol? Let us know how your next appointment goes, I'm cheering you on!


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## Briss

may be you will be more successful with natural cycle IVF? cos you ovulate normally and produce follicles on your own


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## Flipperty

2have4kids said:


> I know what you mean, you have to continue because you don't want to quite on the goal of getting pregnant but it's so darn frustrating and daunting. I find I just don't have the motivation to be as efficient as I once was, I had today off with plans of cleaning the house but i did maybe 15% of my planned attack. I look in the mirror and I feel grey.
> 
> Did you go on the pill first with this protocol? Let us know how your next appointment goes, I'm cheering you on!

 Big hugs to you :hugs::hugs: Hope you are feeling better today - it's ok to have a day off to yourself now and again - we all need some us time xxx 


I am being optimistic about our meeting on Tuesday and positive that we will succeed.... I think the knock back came as a huge shock... I have an awful lot to get my head around in understanding what other options are out there and how the other protocols work.... 

I have only been on injections not pills. :flower:


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## Flipperty

Briss said:


> may be you will be more successful with natural cycle IVF? cos you ovulate normally and produce follicles on your own

 I am not really sure - I think because of my age they are wanting me to produce more follicles... I am unsure just what they are considering doing which is why i need to try to understand more of the protocols available to me xx


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## crystal443

Flipperty, have you had your AMH tested? Typically poor responders have low AMH or low egg reserves if this is the case you won't get high follicle numbers :thumbup: 

The other thing it might have been is that you may have been over suppressed :shrug:
Usually the Flare protocol which involves no down regulation is what is used for poor responders, you may have your stim dosage increased in your next cycle to try to get more follies as well. hang in there because the first cycle is usually the cycle your FS will understand how your going to respond etc. :)


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## 2have4kids

crystal443 said:


> Flipperty, have you had your AMH tested? Typically poor responders have low AMH or low egg reserves if this is the case you won't get high follicle numbers :thumbup:
> 
> The other thing it might have been is that you may have been over suppressed :shrug:
> Usually the Flare protocol which involves no down regulation is what is used for poor responders, you may have your stim dosage increased in your next cycle to try to get more follies as well. hang in there because the first cycle is usually the cycle your FS will understand how your going to respond etc. :)

Oh gowd, at $12,000/IVF pop, I wish I was in Britain. I'm hoping flare works for me in a few months. I'll likely be considered a poor responder with diminished reserves at 37 years old.


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## Flipperty

crystal443 said:


> Flipperty, have you had your AMH tested? Typically poor responders have low AMH or low egg reserves if this is the case you won't get high follicle numbers :thumbup:
> 
> The other thing it might have been is that you may have been over suppressed :shrug:
> Usually the Flare protocol which involves no down regulation is what is used for poor responders, you may have your stim dosage increased in your next cycle to try to get more follies as well. hang in there because the first cycle is usually the cycle your FS will understand how your going to respond etc. :)

 Hiya, thanks for your reply :flower:

Yeah I have my AMH tested and although I am not certain what this was it was deemed good/ok for my age ( I will have to ask tomorrow though so thak's for mentioning that :thumbup:) my FSH was considered really good especially for my age, mainly 8 and one 9 on the last few day 3 tests and estradiol good - don't remember what that was off the top of my head... 

My gyne said all the tests were good/ and he expected a good response from the long protocol.... :shrug: 

Being over suppressed is something I have heard so many times now in reply's and when I have searched the net for possible reasons of low/none response to the long protocol... yet my gyne said in almost 9 years he'd only known it once before - this really upset me....... 

I am gonna to try to go armed with as much information and questions as possible for tomorrow - we go in the morning to discuss where we go from here... xx


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## Flipperty

Briss said:


> may be you will be more successful with natural cycle IVF? cos you ovulate normally and produce follicles on your own


I just don't know Briss..... :shrug: I will be asking all these questions tomorrow... xx


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## Flipperty

2have4kids said:


> Oh gowd, at $12,000/IVF pop, I wish I was in Britain. I'm hoping flare works for me in a few months. I'll likely be considered a poor responder with diminished reserves at 37 years old.

 Do you know your AMH levels? have you been told you have diminished reserves? 

Does your costing include all tests and drugs too? :hugs: xxx


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## Briss

Flipperty said:


> Being over suppressed is something I have heard so many times now in reply's and when I have searched the net for possible reasons of low/none response to the long protocol... yet my gyne said in almost 9 years he'd only known it once before - this really upset me.......
> 
> I am gonna to try to go armed with as much information and questions as possible for tomorrow - we go in the morning to discuss where we go from here... xx

do not take it personally, they are more likely to say that what happened to you is uncommon than acknowledge that they have used wrong protocol/medication etc. 

good luck tomorrow, I hope you will get your answers and most importantly confirm the next steps


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## Wallie

Good luck with your meeting tomorrow. Hope you get some answers and a way forward for next try. :hugs:


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## 2have4kids

Flipperty said:


> 2have4kids said:
> 
> 
> Oh gowd, at $12,000/IVF pop, I wish I was in Britain. I'm hoping flare works for me in a few months. I'll likely be considered a poor responder with diminished reserves at 37 years old.
> 
> Do you know your AMH levels? have you been told you have diminished reserves?
> 
> Does your costing include all tests and drugs too? :hugs: xxxClick to expand...

I don't know my AMH but I asked and could have the test done if I want at $100 fee for sending bloodwork to the states. 

Of the $12,000, $5,000 is covered. Each time they inseminate (that's if I have any extra eggs to freeze) it's $1200. Each time they use the drugs and do IVF it's $12,000 less the $5000 (have to see how often the drug company will cover the cost).

I have been told I have diminished reserves. When my FSH came back at 16 and my u/s showed 1 antral follicle left they told me I'm nearing the end of my fertility (peri-menapausal) and they went down the whole chlomid/iui/ivf process. It's just taken SOOO long it seems to do IVF, it's like it'll never happen.


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## crystal443

Flipperty- If your AMH is good then you should have a good response so maybe you just need your protocol adjusted, my FS doesn't test FSH because he said it can change month to month :shrug: Depends on the FS really, but you should have a good cycle coming to you if they get your meds adjusted :) Have they mentioned an Antagonist cycle where they don't suppress at all?

2have2kids- Its worth the money to have the testing done, my first FS didn't do the testing and my first cycle was cancelled and my second cycle failed and she said she didn't know why. I found a different FS in the same clinic that deals with poor responders and he did AMH testing off the bat and low and behold my AMH is low. He put me on DHEA and I had a 3rd failed cycle :wacko:we'll be doing a semi stimmed cycle in January which means low stims and 3 months of prednisolone because my ovaries do not like being pushed and I've had 3 recurrant mcs. I've just turned 38 and he said my reserves have been low for awhile no doubt:nope: 

Briss- I agree 100%, the clinic will not want to take the blame for a failed cycle:wacko:


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## 2have4kids

Crystal, I will absolutely do an amh test, who are we kidding $100 vs 12,000? 1 antral this month, 4 the next? I just hope if we get preggers paying that much dosh for ivf that i don't m/c. This would be so heartbreaking. 
I've been feeling so crushed recently I'm thinking about adoption. I just want children of my own.


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## Wallie

Flipperty, how did your meeting go, did you get any answers and feel you're going to get somewhere with your clinic next round?


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## crystal443

2have- My FS put me on DHEA for low AMH, it is supposed to help with low follie numbers etc. I actually got pregnant the cycle after my IVF naturally and lost the pregnancy at 13 weeks, then had 2 back to back chemicals but FS believes it was DHEA that made the difference. I have since found out that I have immunity issues as well so I've started prednisolone so hopefully that will help a bean to stick :shrug: I hope everything will have made a difference when we do IVF in january :thumbup:

Flipperty- I hope your appointment went well :hugs::hugs:


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## 2have4kids

Flipperty, how are you? How did it go?
Crystal I believe it works too. Been on it since May. I got my doc to test my free DHEAS before I started taking it. Bloods were on the minimal line. It could be the reason for the new antrals showing up.


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## crystal443

Yep it probably is the reason :) Strange that it works so well for some ladies..we have to have a script to get it here.


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## Flipperty

Briss said:


> Flipperty said:
> 
> 
> Being over suppressed is something I have heard so many times now in reply's and when I have searched the net for possible reasons of low/none response to the long protocol... yet my gyne said in almost 9 years he'd only known it once before - this really upset me.......
> 
> I am gonna to try to go armed with as much information and questions as possible for tomorrow - we go in the morning to discuss where we go from here... xx
> 
> do not take it personally, they are more likely to say that what happened to you is uncommon than acknowledge that they have used wrong protocol/medication etc.
> 
> good luck tomorrow, I hope you will get your answers and most importantly confirm the next stepsClick to expand...

Thanks Briss, I have tried not to take it seriously but it is hellishly hard hitting when said to you how uncommon it is... and didn't really suggest we had other options - massive shock and felt crushed... 

Nurse spoke to the main clinic and spoke to another specialist and he said we could try another protocol... so was a bit mixed up at that stage having thought there were no other options... :shrug:


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## Briss

can you change the clinic?


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## Flipperty

crystal443 said:


> Flipperty- If your AMH is good then you should have a good response so maybe you just need your protocol adjusted, my FS doesn't test FSH because he said it can change month to month :shrug: Depends on the FS really, but you should have a good cycle coming to you if they get your meds adjusted :) Have they mentioned an Antagonist cycle where they don't suppress at all?
> 
> 2have2kids- Its worth the money to have the testing done, my first FS didn't do the testing and my first cycle was cancelled and my second cycle failed and she said she didn't know why. I found a different FS in the same clinic that deals with poor responders and he did AMH testing off the bat and low and behold my AMH is low. He put me on DHEA and I had a 3rd failed cycle :wacko:we'll be doing a semi stimmed cycle in January which means low stims and 3 months of prednisolone because my ovaries do not like being pushed and I've had 3 recurrant mcs. I've just turned 38 and he said my reserves have been low for awhile no doubt:nope:
> 
> Briss- I agree 100%, the clinic will not want to take the blame for a failed cycle:wacko:


Hiya crystal

Well, has your post been an eye opener for me! Thank you.... :flower:


We went for our appointment on Tuesday and I couldn't believe it when we were told I had not had an AMH test!... :saywhat:


I was told they were very expensive, about £140 - If we wanted one we could have one. To be honest I wish we'd understood about this in the first place because maybe this would have made a difference as to which protocol they used... 
We could have decided if we wanted to pay for it in the start - We would have paid for it from the start, we paid out for specific additional bloods that the NHS would not do and hubbys SA... so why didn't they ask about this? :shrug: My specialist did say when I asked what my AMH should be that is was difficult to say exactly what is a good result and not as there are so many things that can factor... 

I had lots of months of FSH tested to get an idea what it was - it was mainly 8 once 9 but before weight loss higher so i do know weight can have an impact. I'm so proud of myself for getting it down am the fsh being so much better. :thumbup:

What exactly is DHEA, and a semi stimmed cycle? 

I said I thought that i may have been over suppressed, but he seemed to think this was not the case and that I just did not respond to the treatment... But I am still unsure... I said I have spoken to and read about a lot of people who had been like me with unexplained and had good results in the beginning prior to IVF, but then had the long protocol found they had bad results/were poor responders and had cancelled cycles, again I was told it was uncommon .... 

I got the feeling from the way he was, that this was it for us.... - I was really upset but knowing what I'd read from others similar to me I wanted to ask what else was available for us - surely there was something after all i had read.... :shrug: I just didn't get this positive or encouraging feeling... so I told him I didn't feel he was very positive towards us/me... he said he was but he was just trying to also be realistic... I felt crap - Like there was no hope ... :cry: 

Soooo, I asked about the short protocol.... why wasn't I put on it in the start - why the decision for the long....

My hubby asked about the one lady he'd said this had happened to before... ( cancelled cycle being a poor responder what happened to her .... and low and behold we were told she went on short protocol and got pregnant! ( so I don't know why this wasn't suggested to us.... :nope:) 

He ended up being more positive and talking about drugs to use in short protocol..... 

I have to wait for my period to come next... no idea when this will be as it doesn't feel like it's coming any time soon! ... Then we are to go on the short protocol - but he mentioned going on 'the pill' for a month first - he said I would still be suppressed but they could up the amount of other drugs I have been on ....

I would like to know what others short protocol is/was like?


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## Flipperty

2have4kids said:


> Crystal, I will absolutely do an amh test, who are we kidding $100 vs 12,000? 1 antral this month, 4 the next? I just hope if we get preggers paying that much dosh for ivf that i don't m/c. This would be so heartbreaking.
> I've been feeling so crushed recently I'm thinking about adoption. I just want children of my own.


Awww hon :hugs::hugs: I so know how you feel..... xx

Reaching this time in life - finding the man you want to spend the rest of your life with and just wanting to complete a family.... 

I was so positive about my cycle - thinking we'd be pregnant for Christmas.... this has been a massive shock to me ... BUT I am positive we'll all get there in the end.... :hugs: and :dust: xx


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## Flipperty

Wallie said:


> Flipperty, how did your meeting go, did you get any answers and feel you're going to get somewhere with your clinic next round?

 Thank you for asking :hugs: xx

I have just updated a few post up. 


I think I still have questions.... I guess we'll always have those xx


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## Flipperty

Briss said:


> can you change the clinic?

 I think I may call the big main place and just ask to talk to someone.... 

I don't want to feel like I don't have faith in the person I am seeing though - just that sometimes another may have a different view of a situation... On the whole I do really like the gyne we are seeing and all the staff are so lovely 

I want to understand the short protocols now - I am going for my AMH test then i hope this will help with the protocol choice as it seems there are so many combinations of drugs that can be taken even on the short one?


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## Flipperty

2have4kids said:


> Flipperty, how are you? How did it go?
> Crystal I believe it works too. Been on it since May. I got my doc to test my free DHEAS before I started taking it. Bloods were on the minimal line. It could be the reason for the new antrals showing up.

Hiya 2have4kids:flower: Thanks for asking xxx

I have replied a few posts up xx

Can i ask, what is this... free DHEAS?


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## Briss

Flipperty said:


> Briss said:
> 
> 
> can you change the clinic?
> 
> I think I may call the big main place and just ask to talk to someone....
> 
> I don't want to feel like I don't have faith in the person I am seeing though - just that sometimes another may have a different view of a situation... On the whole I do really like the gyne we are seeing and all the staff are so lovely
> 
> I want to understand the short protocols now - I am going for my AMH test then i hope this will help with the protocol choice as it seems there are so many combinations of drugs that can be taken even on the short one?Click to expand...

good luck with AMH! I hope they chose the right protocol and combinations of drugs for you next time. keep us posted


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## crystal443

Flipperty- I learned the hard way as well about AMH testing etc.. my first FS didn't do any blood work so it was a surprise for us when I responded so poorly. A short protocol is what's widely used in poor responders and over 35+ ladies, there is no birth control and you start stimming between cycle day 1 and cycle day 3, an antagonist is usually added at about day 5 or day 6 and this will hold the egg in the follicle and allow the eggs to grow without ovulating them. So the first 5 days or so of the cycle, follies are allowed to grow and your not suppressed. Then on day 5 or 6 the antagonist medicine which is usually garnilex or cetrotide will hold all the follies in place so they can grow. Its great for poor responders because they can get higher follies with this. Once the eggs are the size that they want they will trigger and do the egg retrieval. 

SemiIVF- used in women with lower AMH that have been poor responders or just poor responders in general. Instead of using the high amounts of stimming drugs it would normally take to get eggs from me. They'll use a low dose because some ovaries just don't like to stimulated and I'm one of those ladies :wacko: lucky me!! Using a lower dose of Gonal F can actually produce more eggs in a poor responder. Not a record number but some ladies get 5-6 eggs which to me would be fabulous :)

Natural IVF- This is when they allow you to produce one egg without any stimming drugs, they may give you clomid and when your ready to ovulate they retrieve the egg, fertilize it and put it back. This works for ladies who are poor responders, and who produce poor eggs from the stimulating drugs :thumbup: 

I don't understand why their acting like you have no options :shrug: responding poorly happens to some of us and isn't uncommon, there are options open to you. Very frustrating isn't it? Have you had a look to see if there are any FS that specialize in poor response to IVF etc?

Here is some info on DHEA:
https://www.fertilityauthority.com/articles/older-women-low-amh-still-have-chance-pregnancy

Information on Protocols:
https://www.ivf-embryo.gr/en/ivf-protocols

Natural IVF:
https://www.iaac.ca/content/vitro-fertilization-natural-way


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## 2have4kids

https://labtestsonline.org/understanding/analytes/dheas/tab/test
Just another androgen hormone test. I've heard that some women react badly to dhea and I believe it may be because they don't have low levels. I haven't had any reaction but then I'm at the lowest levels with all of those hormones. Got to get my mojo back!


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## Flipperty

Hiya guys 

Thanks so, so much for the links :flower:

I am going to have a good look at all of them and try to take it all in... I just want to learn and understand as much as possible before we go forward to our next step. 

Bit too tired tonight to look more more tonight but i will find some time over the weekend to look into it a bit further. 

I really appreciate you both giving me these links. Big :hugs::hugs: xxx


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## Flipperty

Now this! :wacko: :cry:


https://babyandbump.momtastic.com/a...3-ovarian-cyst-4-5cm-after-cancelled-ivf.html


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## Briss

Flipperty, do not worry I am sure I will go away on its own. I responded on your other thread.


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## Flipperty

Hiya guys - how are you all? Good I hope. 

I have had my AMH test and looking to get my results this week, hopefully tomorrow. So fingers tightly crossed 

My period came eventually last month, and they said at the clinic that they want another natural cycle before starting on the next protocol... 

I'll keep updated xx


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## Briss

Did you get the results? I hope it's good news :) I think it's right that you need to wait one cycle to get back to normal before trying again.


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## Flipperty

I called the clinic for my results today and the nurse said she had been going to call me later to fix an appointment to discuss the results and the next protocol and where we go from here. 

The date is fixed for February, this seems an age away when you just want to move on - I will be 40 soon and scared of time not being on my side - But I guess I have to just go with the flow... 

So, I asked again for my results, what were they? - to be told they were not to hand and that she could not tell me anyway as she is not able to explain them. I asked was there no way I could get to know - could I not just be told what the report/ results said - but no, I was to discuss them in February.... and they could decide if they would stick with the plan/protocol they had suggested or if they will try a different one. 

This is a month away... :nope: I'm so frustrated and heads a bit all over and I am so tearful :cry: I don't know what to think, what if they do change the protocol is it not good news? :shrug: - am I completely useless, - I just don't know and feel all over and so unsure on anything... I'm just in limbo! 

I'm also upset I can't have my results - I don't know why they won't give them out, I don't know if it's because they don't like you reading up stuff on the net or what, but I just want to understand my results... I paid for my test surely I should be entitled to have my results? I even had to ask about having the test done as it wasn't suggested or offered to me before I started my first round of IVF! 

Maybe my hubby would be better off with a woman that worked, I feel utterly useless right now :cry:


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## 2have4kids

Don't say that Flipperty! You and your husband will work something out. Have you been taking any supplements to help awaken those egg reserves? I've just had the call from the clinic today to do IVF next month, I delayed. I'm going to loose a heap of weight first and rescheduled for May. I've been over weight for ages and I know if you loose weight your hormones get reinvigorated and things awaken. I've scheduled a gastric sleeve for Saturday! Crazy hey? I just can't loose this weight, I'm about 65 lbs over, 30 BMI and I know that CoQ10 and DHEA have worked for me over the last year because my working antral follicles went from 1 to 4 between u/s taken Feb 2012 and Nov. My bf is a nurse and she said I may not respond to the IVF meds if I have extra fat on me. She didn't mean it in a harsh way, she just meant that hormones are fat soluble and just to go in with eyes open. So I've made a decision to get my shit together and loose the majority of the weight first. The GS doc warned that women experience a surge in their fertility and to make sure to use double the protection. I smiled and nodded. I don't think this is for everyone, I also have stage 4 knee arthritis that is worse with more weight on my bones. I have to lighten the load to extend the life of my knees. 

I wish you some decent results. We're both fighting for a baby, I'm sending you BIG hugs. I wish they didn't make you wait so long & sorry you're going through this!!


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## Flipperty

Well, we saw my specialist - the AMH results were shocking 0.57 - I was/am devastated :cry:

I am SO upset, confused and cross - I had to ask for this test - and when I did he said it was not relevant and it was an expensive test - I said I wish i'd known i'd not had it before the first IVF cycle because if I had have known I'd have asked for it to be done first then discuss options and look at all my results! 

Again, at the time of asking for it he said it was not a test they were bothered about as it did not effect anything they did- and the results we had, day 3 were the ones he was bothered about and that mattered... ( all my tests have been excellent, especially for my age! ) But if I really wanted it i could have it - so like I said before we did have the test, I then had to wait until the appointment in Feb before they would tell me the results! 

So now he showed me the results he changed his tune - now the results *did matter* - now he said this result proves why I did not react at all on the long protocol IVF and I would not be expected to react any better on the short protocol! 

ARGH - so why was I not offered or advised to have the test in the first place - the latest day 3 tests were also shown to us - these again were great - so I asked him how come they do not tally - how come the results of the tests he said *did* matter were so good and the AMH so bad.... he didn't really answer just said that the ones they would take notice of were the AMH as these are the ones showing why I reacted to the drugs as I did! 

he said my overies can age faster than other parts of my body... 

My hubby asked if i would go through the menopause early - he said possibly - possibly my mum did too - Errr hello - what part of my mum was in her mid 40's when she had me and it was years and years later when she went through the change had he not listened to at most visits!? 

when my hubby asked if maybe it was a genetic thing on my side the specialist said it could possibly be.... (this was asked because 2 of my sisters didn't have children ( one had tests and all was well with her but not her OH the other never had tests) BUT - I am the youngest of 7 and the others all have children - and those old enough have children of their own too.... Hmmmm I said why would this be the case if others had had children - he said well as your parents were older this could cause problems - eh? so my next 2 sisters along from me have children - not that big an age difference.... the sisters not having are mixed up in the line up! Hmm again... :shrug:

None of this was making much sense 

So I asked - how come my scan to check my follicles during a natural cycle was good - 6 and 5 good follicles in each side and so bad with the ivf drugs - he said it was because i have such a low AMH results - I don't get it - how come they were good without drugs? 

I am so confused, frustrated upset and angry - so disheartened and emotionally, mentally and physically drained.... :cry::cry:

They discussed donor eggs but it's very costly and I'm really unsure.... I think he felt there was little chance of their being any point to a short protocol... Odd how this was the way forward before i insisted on the AMH test - the test I was told was not important! I have been sent a natural cycle protocol to consider - but if i did do well on it and egg collection day fell on a Sunday it would be cancelled as they don't do the procedures on this day... so no point doing that in case this happened surely and yet more money down the drain and another hell of an emotional roller coaster ride ? :shrug:

I have lots of drugs left from them cancelling on the long protocol that I paid for - and we've paid a good whack for a cancelled cycle that he *now* says makes sense judging by the AMH results? So why did we not have this test offered in the first place then maybe I'd not have gone through so much and it have cost so much in so many ways ....:cry:




I am at a loss as to what to do/think... I don't know which way to turn to next, the DHEA etc approach and just pray it happens that way - another shot at IVF but seeing as the specialist seem to be so negative I don't know - if we went for a 2nd opinion I don't know where we'd go... we have just started to speak of adoption - or if I should just walk away and give up on my dream :cry::nope:


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## 2have4kids

If you're not already on DHEA and CoQ10 I highly recommend it. I take pregvit with DHEA, vit c, CoQ10 and salmon oil, EPO, vit E and some antioxidants and my u/s's have changed with more working antral follies in a 9 month period. I also exercise on a regular basis and think things have changed...I feel better anyway. 

Whatever you choose to do i wish you luck. I'm in the same boat with less antrals. It is still possible to get pregnant. We've only ever had success while using softcups. Keep trying and try not to get too discouraged. They said I could get the fsh test too for $100 as it's only done in the states. I'm not doing it, i already know I have diminished reserve so I've been doing everything in my power with diet, exercise and supplements to keep from aging. Your eggies need oil and good nutrition, try to treat your body well, stay positive. Sorry for all the chaos you've been though.


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## Flipperty

Thank you for your reply :hugs:

I have the fsh test regularly ( monthly) - fsh is 8 or 9 each month! I have all the day 3 testing done and my progesterone levels checked on day 19 or 21 ( my cycle is a 26/28 day one) and all results are excellent! none of my other tests tally with the AMH test - at all! :nope:

Do you have to go to see a specialist for all your medication/supplements? xx

My specialist also said that no matter what i did I would NOT change my AMH levels - they are what they are and nothing will change them! 

I tried to tell him i had heard/read different but he didn't agree - this is the same person who said the test was not relevant in the first place!


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## Briss

Hi Flipperty, I am very sorry your clinic is treating you that way. I remember your canceled IVF and I still believe it's the clinic not you, they are just trying to justify their failure, using AMH as an excuse. I would though recommend a natural cycle protocol but with a different clinic if possible.


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## 2have4kids

I agree with briss, a change of clinic might do you some good. My fs told me there's nothing i could do or take to help my fertility except for iui and ivf. She even warned me that with ivf I could be a poor responder. I think they have a very straight forward medically based approach. Blinders on. The body is a complex thing. While I don't believe in chinese medicine (I actually think it's quite harmful tbh) I do believe DHEA and some other supplements work well and there are independent studies that have shown some interesting results. You only have a short window in your life to ttc and if I'm approaching the end of mine i'm surely going to take things that have been proven beneficial to overall health ie vit b12,b6,c,e,d folic acid, omega 3/6/9. No doc can take that away from us. If you analyze your diet through fitday.com it'll tell you what you're lacking in vits and nutrients quite easily-that's a good start.

Softcups are my #1 recommendation over supplements tho. I had no idea only 4-5% sperm are getting through each time we bd, This is a terrible number...a total crap shoot when it comes to ttc. At least by trying things it makes me feel like i have more of the control in my hands and seeing that we got 2 bfp in 2 years of ttc with softcups, I'll keep using them again.


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## crystal443

I was wondering how your appointment went :( Your low AMH would explain the poor response to stims and to the long protocol. You could try a short protocol however you probably still won't yeild a high number of eggs but even if you get 4-5 if they're good quality you should have something to put back. 

Your other option is a natural cycle where your either not stimmed at all or your given a very gentle stim and that will sometimes yield more eggs. It also costs quite a bit less to go the natural IVF route :thumbup: 

One of the problems with low AMH is that an antra follie count can show 5 and 6 follies but with low AMH its guaranteed some of those are empty follies. My FS uses DHEA and it does work because I got pregnant in the third month using it, I eneded up mc but for reasons other then low AMH :thumbup:. Definately give it a try, it takes 3-4 months for it to work well so hang in there :)

Your AMH is really only saying your egg reserves are getting low, you can still get pregnant :hugs: I can't believe your FS said AMH wasn't important and now says it is :nope:


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## 2have4kids

Crystal, did you use DHEA into your pregnancy or stop at O? I'm using it without my fs knowing and did get a natural bfp too only to m/c. I know at both DH and my age it's a VERY high chance of m/c but I just didn't know what to do with supplements and stopped everything except for progesterone, omega 3's, D and PregVit once pregnant.


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## crystal443

My FS told me to take it until there was a heartbeat seen, some ladies don't agree with this and I'm not saying anyone is right or wrong :thumbup: but that's what he told me. He said if its stopped with a BFP and it isn't a viable pregnancy then it has to build up in the system again. So its another 3/4 months to get it to build up.

I had 1 mc at 13 weeks and then 2 back to back chemicals and I then had a chemical in January. I have poor egg quality with low AMH, I'm 38 now so we're going to move on to donor eggs. In all of our IVF cycles we have had nothing to put back so I'm ready to move on :) There were many ladies in my FS practice that have had success with DHEA, its the first thing he prescribes if its low AMH :thumbup:


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## Briss

2have, can you please share why you don't believe in chinese medicine and particularly why do you think it's quite harmful? I've been doing acu and herbs to improve my FSH and generally to try and stop my eggs aging but after 4 months I cant say I see any particular change but I think a change of acu doc is in order probably.


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## 2have4kids

I wound up in the emergency after taking Dong Quai. I did alot of research after taking this and found no actual studies linking any benefits to chinese herbs-it's ALL anecdotal evidence. There are huge lists of contraindications and interactions with Chinese herbs. I do believe in acupuncture and here in Calgary we have a very reputable cllinic. I wasn't recommended any chinese herbs when I went there and I did go over everything I was taking with the acupuncturist who said I have a very good regiment. I think overall health is far more important for my fertility and that means losing weight, being more active and being careful about what I consume (coffee + alcohol). It's much safer than taking "liver cleansing" herbs. 

The emerg doc said that the problem with chinese supplements is that they aren't standardized, so where they're grown, what sprays are put on the plants, what dose etc is completely random, untested, unregulated and as far as I'm concerned if anyone needs a liver tonic, water, exercise fresh food, no drugs and a healthy lifestyle is likely much better than taking unstudied drugs that have had incidents of causing liver damage (research liver damage chinese herbs). I don't even like the premise that they base their medicine on, I don't believe infertility is caused by a clogged up liver. I think there are many facets to infertility; in my case being overweight certainly doesn't help and genetics has played a big role knowing my mom had issues too. I just want to be very conservative with what I put into my body.


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## crystal443

I've never taken chinese herbs but all 3 FS I went to at the IVF clinic won't start treatment while they're being taken. I think because it can affect how the stims work and also they can do more harm then good in some ladies :shrug: That being said there are lots of ladies that do see improvment while using them. I did accupunture for a few months before my IVF cycle as well but I didn't notice a difference in follie numbers.

I think genetics play a role in fertility, all the ladies in my family have gone through menopause in their early to mid 40's, I'm 38 with low AMH so I think I'll be right on track for that. the good thing to come out of it is that my daughter who's 16 will have the information to make a decision when she's 25 or so to freeze her eggs. Actually hubby and I already said we'll pay for the cycle and pay to keep them in storage. I do not want her to have the same heartache I'm having.


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## Flipperty

The more I think about it the more I am furious with our specialist / clinic and how they have messed me around and led up the garden path - feels like all our hard earned money down the pan and wasted :cry: - they wouldn't listen when I questioned the protocol and i just keep thinking how they said the AMH test was not relevant now it is - but the other tests that I have been told to keep having were all so good - argh none of it makes sense and I feel washed out with emotion and disappointment and confusion... :cry:

I am going to look into the supplements - do they need to be prescribed though - I have lost faith in our specialist and there is no where that local to go to really...

We are also going to look at adoption and consider that route.... but wonder if at our ages they won't consider us for a baby.... 

I feel like we have wasted the last year with this specialist ... :cry:


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## Flipperty

The clinic I have been at does not recommend taking the herbs and there is evidence that is has not helped in the past, it's caused more bad responces with those who had previously responded well 

I did take them some time ago but stopped - I had a really bad feeling that at the end of the day I knew nothing about them at all and had no idea what had been going into them....!


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## Flipperty

crystal443 said:


> I've never taken chinese herbs but all 3 FS I went to at the IVF clinic won't start treatment while they're being taken. I think because it can affect how the stims work and also they can do more harm then good in some ladies :shrug: That being said there are lots of ladies that do see improvment while using them. I did accupunture for a few months before my IVF cycle as well but I didn't notice a difference in follie numbers.
> 
> I think genetics play a role in fertility, all the ladies in my family have gone through menopause in their early to mid 40's, I'm 38 with low AMH so I think I'll be right on track for that. the good thing to come out of it is that my daughter who's 16 will have the information to make a decision when she's 25 or so to freeze her eggs. Actually hubby and I already said we'll pay for the cycle and pay to keep them in storage. I do not want her to have the same heartache I'm having.


I agree with all of this - I loved the acupuncture and was very open minded but i'm not sure it helped as such... I diod feel well having it though so that must be a good thing - the herbs though - nope.... I regret having any at all.... 

As for what you say about your daughter I think that is a wonderful thing to do for her :hugs::hugs::hugs: and had I known the hell I would be going through now I would have looked into doing the same thing for myself - my mum had me at almost 46 and didn't menopause early but you just don't always know - my problem was I always wanted a family - my destiny was to be a wife and mum - but I met the wrong men - simple... Then I found my Mr right, fell in love and wanted to bring a baby into the world so much with this wonderful man... but I feel cheated that now I can't complete my/our dream..... We get no help either so it all feels an even bigger struggle I've worked hard all my life and just want this one thing....


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## Flipperty

Briss said:


> 2have, can you please share why you don't believe in chinese medicine and particularly why do you think it's quite harmful? I've been doing acu and herbs to improve my FSH and generally to try and stop my eggs aging but after 4 months I cant say I see any particular change but I think a change of acu doc is in order probably.

 Hiya Briss - i think I said before to you I wasn't keen on them and would never do them again - I regret taking them tbh.... But luckily didn't take them all and it was a good while ago now... xxx


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## doorbell

Hi Flipperty. I second what the other ladies have said. I would definately seek out an opinion from another specialist, I wouldnt have much faith in the one you have considering what has already gone on. 

Try not to worry too much about the low AMH, there are plenty of ladies on the TTC 1st thread that have got pregnant with low results, it doesnt say anything about quality, all you need is one good one!

My background is similar to yours, same age, been trying the same amount of time, except I have already gone through 3 IVF's, 2x BFN and 1 chemical. 

Its worth a consultation elsewhere and see what they say.


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## 2have4kids

Flipperty said:


> The more I think about it the more I am furious with our specialist / clinic and how they have messed me around and led up the garden path - feels like all our hard earned money down the pan and wasted :cry: - they wouldn't listen when I questioned the protocol and i just keep thinking how they said the AMH test was not relevant now it is - but the other tests that I have been told to keep having were all so good - argh none of it makes sense and I feel washed out with emotion and disappointment and confusion... :cry:
> 
> I am going to look into the supplements - do they need to be prescribed though - I have lost faith in our specialist and there is no where that local to go to really...
> 
> We are also going to look at adoption and consider that route.... but wonder if at our ages they won't consider us for a baby....
> 
> I feel like we have wasted the last year with this specialist ... :cry:

I'm sorry things have gone so badly for you. Maybe some supplements will help you out at least they might be worth a try. And if at the end there's still nothing, at least you can say you really tried everything. I think it's a huge opportunity to look at adoption, my OH and I have agreed that if in 2 more years nothing works, we'll be adopting.
DHEA:
https://www.dhea.com/home.php?cat=249 I got my gp to test my dheas and it was on the lowest line of normal. It's illegal in Canada so they ship it in for me from this lab in the states in an unmarked envelope. 50mg-I'm 5'9 and 189 lbs, I did this amount based on what others in clinics that prescribe DHEA were taking. I can say that since I've been taking it I sleep SOOO well and dream almost every night.


The fertility clinic wouldn't do any treatments on me until I got my thyroid up which was also pretty low (or so they said at 3.5) so I take synthroid (25Mcg-lowest dose possible). Do you know if your clinic tested you? It effects the way your body produces it's endocrine and adrenal hormones, vital to fertility. 

Have they done clotting or karyotype testing on both of you? 

I get CoQ10 here: https://naturalbiology.stores.yahoo.net/coq10400mg.html and take 2 pills/day 2 400mg. This will help aging eggs repair at the cellular level.

1000mg vit/day (EmergenC)
vit B6 & B12
pregvit Folic5
salmon oil
vitex
EPO
no gluten, no pasta, no caffeine, no alcohol, lots of protein, veggies, fruit, and exercise. Sometimes I take antioxidents too if I know I'm not getting enough veggies in (resveratrol, Pycnogenol). I now get regular cycles with a decent luteal phase and ovulate each month, as opposed to not ovulating and getting LONG cycles where I couldn't track things properly (over a year ago now-I've been taking these supplements for a long time). I've had 2 natural bfp, 1 chemical and 1 that lead to m/c. They were both while we were also using softcups but I highly believe between the supplements and softcups, things are changing for the better.


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## crystal443

2have4kids, wow you are awesome for being so disiplined :thumbup: I've taken all the supplements but wasn't that strict with food. I believe it does make a huge impact though :thumbup: 

Flipperty, I totally agree with the poster that said low eggs do not mean poor eggs because AMH only measures the reserves :thumbup:Your FSH was fine so I don't understand why your clinic isn't trying IVF again :shrug: It just basically means you probably won't get a lot of eggs, but you will get some on the right protocol :thumbup:

Are you stuck with your current clinic? If not its worth it to go and have the second opinion, I think sometimes we need to shop around a little to find an FS that is the right match.

Hope your feeling a bit better today, its a shock to believe everything is ok and you get hit with low AMH :hugs: Just know it isn't the end of the line :thumbup:


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## Briss

2have, thanks for responding. I now recall you already shared your experience and i remember i was very concerned. I've been taking Dong Quai for over 3 months now but not on its own, it's mixed with 15 other herbs. I read that chinese herbs should not be taken on their own because they can have very strong effect and sometimes they can change their quality when are mixed with certain other herbs. I've tried reaseching and read a few books on chinese herbs but I found it very difficult to understand because each herb works so differently depending on a person's deficiancies and other herbs in the mix. so my advice would be never to self-prescribe chinese herbs - unlike vitamins they can turn against you if taken improperly and never take them on their own. 

I do not know how the herbs work with IVF but I know that acupancture is widely used to assist IVF but you need to find a practicioner who knows how to work together with different protocols. 

tbh after 4 months acu+herbs I am not hugelly impressed. my temp got generally steadier and my charts look heathier but my cycle is still rather short and my acne got worse. I am hoping acu did its work to prepare me for potential IVF though but I am likely to go natural IVF route


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## Blythe

2have4kids said:


> I wound up in the emergency after taking Dong Quai. I did alot of research after taking this and found no actual studies linking any benefits to chinese herbs-it's ALL anecdotal evidence. There are huge lists of contraindications and interactions with Chinese herbs. I do believe in acupuncture and here in Calgary we have a very reputable cllinic. I wasn't recommended any chinese herbs when I went there and I did go over everything I was taking with the acupuncturist who said I have a very good regiment. I think overall health is far more important for my fertility and that means losing weight, being more active and being careful about what I consume (coffee + alcohol). It's much safer than taking "liver cleansing" herbs.
> 
> The emerg doc said that the problem with chinese supplements is that they aren't standardized, so where they're grown, what sprays are put on the plants, what dose etc is completely random, untested, unregulated and as far as I'm concerned if anyone needs a liver tonic, water, exercise fresh food, no drugs and a healthy lifestyle is likely much better than taking unstudied drugs that have had incidents of causing liver damage (research liver damage chinese herbs). I don't even like the premise that they base their medicine on, I don't believe infertility is caused by a clogged up liver. I think there are many facets to infertility; in my case being overweight certainly doesn't help and genetics has played a big role knowing my mom had issues too. I just want to be very conservative with what I put into my body.


I remember reading your story before re dong quai..its terrible that you ended up in hospital....it is very strong thats for sure. Its quite good for bringing on bleeding i believe. I self administered this on and off when i became pregnant a few years back but maybe this was coincidental. I have had no luck with it this time around!!

I see you are taking vitex.....thats a very well used chinese herb but obviously goes by different name....my understanding is that both chinese herbal medicine and acupuncture are based upon exactly the same premise. I dare say some herbs are better than others in the way they are cultivated etc...many chinese herbs are grown in the US now and are completely organic. 

Having said all this i think i will be having a break from herbs soon as they are so expensive!


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## 2have4kids

Blythe said:


> 2have4kids said:
> 
> 
> I wound up in the emergency after taking Dong Quai. I did alot of research after taking this and found no actual studies linking any benefits to chinese herbs-it's ALL anecdotal evidence. There are huge lists of contraindications and interactions with Chinese herbs. I do believe in acupuncture and here in Calgary we have a very reputable cllinic. I wasn't recommended any chinese herbs when I went there and I did go over everything I was taking with the acupuncturist who said I have a very good regiment. I think overall health is far more important for my fertility and that means losing weight, being more active and being careful about what I consume (coffee + alcohol). It's much safer than taking "liver cleansing" herbs.
> 
> The emerg doc said that the problem with chinese supplements is that they aren't standardized, so where they're grown, what sprays are put on the plants, what dose etc is completely random, untested, unregulated and as far as I'm concerned if anyone needs a liver tonic, water, exercise fresh food, no drugs and a healthy lifestyle is likely much better than taking unstudied drugs that have had incidents of causing liver damage (research liver damage chinese herbs). I don't even like the premise that they base their medicine on, I don't believe infertility is caused by a clogged up liver. I think there are many facets to infertility; in my case being overweight certainly doesn't help and genetics has played a big role knowing my mom had issues too. I just want to be very conservative with what I put into my body.
> 
> 
> I remember reading your story before re dong quai..its terrible that you ended up in hospital....it is very strong thats for sure. Its quite good for bringing on bleeding i believe. I self administered this on and off when i became pregnant a few years back but maybe this was coincidental. I have had no luck with it this time around!!
> 
> I see you are taking vitex.....thats a very well used chinese herb but obviously goes by different name....my understanding is that both chinese herbal medicine and acupuncture are based upon exactly the same premise. I dare say some herbs are better than others in the way they are cultivated etc...many chinese herbs are grown in the US now and are completely organic.
> 
> Having said all this i think i will be having a break from herbs soon as they are so expensive!Click to expand...

You know what I say do whatever works for your body! Not many believe soft cups work and I absolutely won't have another timed BD without using one ever again as long as we're still trying to conceive. We all have to follow our intuition about what works and go with it!


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## Blythe

2have4kids said:


> Blythe said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2have4kids said:
> 
> 
> I wound up in the emergency after taking Dong Quai. I did alot of research after taking this and found no actual studies linking any benefits to chinese herbs-it's ALL anecdotal evidence. There are huge lists of contraindications and interactions with Chinese herbs. I do believe in acupuncture and here in Calgary we have a very reputable cllinic. I wasn't recommended any chinese herbs when I went there and I did go over everything I was taking with the acupuncturist who said I have a very good regiment. I think overall health is far more important for my fertility and that means losing weight, being more active and being careful about what I consume (coffee + alcohol). It's much safer than taking "liver cleansing" herbs.
> 
> The emerg doc said that the problem with chinese supplements is that they aren't standardized, so where they're grown, what sprays are put on the plants, what dose etc is completely random, untested, unregulated and as far as I'm concerned if anyone needs a liver tonic, water, exercise fresh food, no drugs and a healthy lifestyle is likely much better than taking unstudied drugs that have had incidents of causing liver damage (research liver damage chinese herbs). I don't even like the premise that they base their medicine on, I don't believe infertility is caused by a clogged up liver. I think there are many facets to infertility; in my case being overweight certainly doesn't help and genetics has played a big role knowing my mom had issues too. I just want to be very conservative with what I put into my body.
> 
> 
> I remember reading your story before re dong quai..its terrible that you ended up in hospital....it is very strong thats for sure. Its quite good for bringing on bleeding i believe. I self administered this on and off when i became pregnant a few years back but maybe this was coincidental. I have had no luck with it this time around!!
> 
> I see you are taking vitex.....thats a very well used chinese herb but obviously goes by different name....my understanding is that both chinese herbal medicine and acupuncture are based upon exactly the same premise. I dare say some herbs are better than others in the way they are cultivated etc...many chinese herbs are grown in the US now and are completely organic.
> 
> Having said all this i think i will be having a break from herbs soon as they are so expensive!Click to expand...
> 
> You know what I say do whatever works for your body! Not many believe soft cups work and I absolutely won't have another timed BD without using one ever again as long as we're still trying to conceive. We all have to follow our intuition about what works and go with it!Click to expand...

I have some softcups but struggle with getting them in tbh...i put some preseed in them and shove them up but when i take them out there is 'stuff' on both sides and i worry i may have blocked entry! Do you use lubricant with them?


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## Blythe

Flipperty said:


> Well, we saw my specialist - the AMH results were shocking 0.57 - I was/am devastated :cry:
> 
> I am SO upset, confused and cross - I had to ask for this test - and when I did he said it was not relevant and it was an expensive test - I said I wish i'd known i'd not had it before the first IVF cycle because if I had have known I'd have asked for it to be done first then discuss options and look at all my results!
> 
> Again, at the time of asking for it he said it was not a test they were bothered about as it did not effect anything they did- and the results we had, day 3 were the ones he was bothered about and that mattered... ( all my tests have been excellent, especially for my age! ) But if I really wanted it i could have it - so like I said before we did have the test, I then had to wait until the appointment in Feb before they would tell me the results!
> 
> So now he showed me the results he changed his tune - now the results *did matter* - now he said this result proves why I did not react at all on the long protocol IVF and I would not be expected to react any better on the short protocol!
> 
> ARGH - so why was I not offered or advised to have the test in the first place - the latest day 3 tests were also shown to us - these again were great - so I asked him how come they do not tally - how come the results of the tests he said *did* matter were so good and the AMH so bad.... he didn't really answer just said that the ones they would take notice of were the AMH as these are the ones showing why I reacted to the drugs as I did!
> 
> he said my overies can age faster than other parts of my body...
> 
> My hubby asked if i would go through the menopause early - he said possibly - possibly my mum did too - Errr hello - what part of my mum was in her mid 40's when she had me and it was years and years later when she went through the change had he not listened to at most visits!?
> 
> when my hubby asked if maybe it was a genetic thing on my side the specialist said it could possibly be.... (this was asked because 2 of my sisters didn't have children ( one had tests and all was well with her but not her OH the other never had tests) BUT - I am the youngest of 7 and the others all have children - and those old enough have children of their own too.... Hmmmm I said why would this be the case if others had had children - he said well as your parents were older this could cause problems - eh? so my next 2 sisters along from me have children - not that big an age difference.... the sisters not having are mixed up in the line up! Hmm again... :shrug:
> 
> None of this was making much sense
> 
> So I asked - how come my scan to check my follicles during a natural cycle was good - 6 and 5 good follicles in each side and so bad with the ivf drugs - he said it was because i have such a low AMH results - I don't get it - how come they were good without drugs?
> 
> I am so confused, frustrated upset and angry - so disheartened and emotionally, mentally and physically drained.... :cry::cry:
> 
> They discussed donor eggs but it's very costly and I'm really unsure.... I think he felt there was little chance of their being any point to a short protocol... Odd how this was the way forward before i insisted on the AMH test - the test I was told was not important! I have been sent a natural cycle protocol to consider - but if i did do well on it and egg collection day fell on a Sunday it would be cancelled as they don't do the procedures on this day... so no point doing that in case this happened surely and yet more money down the drain and another hell of an emotional roller coaster ride ? :shrug:
> 
> I have lots of drugs left from them cancelling on the long protocol that I paid for - and we've paid a good whack for a cancelled cycle that he *now* says makes sense judging by the AMH results? So why did we not have this test offered in the first place then maybe I'd not have gone through so much and it have cost so much in so many ways ....:cry:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am at a loss as to what to do/think... I don't know which way to turn to next, the DHEA etc approach and just pray it happens that way - another shot at IVF but seeing as the specialist seem to be so negative I don't know - if we went for a 2nd opinion I don't know where we'd go... we have just started to speak of adoption - or if I should just walk away and give up on my dream :cry::nope:

https://babyandbump.momtastic.com/t...fp-dhea-coq10-vitex-black-cohosh-low-amh.html

Hi flipperty sorry to butt in.....not sure if you have seen notrustys original post (see link above) but Her amh result was not so great and she is now pregnant. It's a great post and she is always happy to give advice.


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## 2have4kids

Blyth, with the softcups i usually use the applicator to put just a little preseed way up there before BD, and then after BD, stay lying down, squeeze the side of the softcups together and it usually slips right into place. There's usually stuff in the cup 8 hours later when i remove it. As long as you stay lying down the whole time after bd to when you insert it shouldn't block the entrance, it'll scoop them back where they need to be :)


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## Briss

I could not work soft cups either, I guess it just does not work for everyone. we tried preseed for a few cycles as well and no luck yet.


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## 2have4kids

It probably easier because I'm a diva up user for AF too. Haven't paid for tampons in 10 years!


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## Blythe

oh yes a few months ago i brought a moon cup [i think its the same sort of thing] and have been getting used to using that....i love not spending loads on tampons every month but have to say i haven't mastered it and still get leakage but I'm determined to stick with it until I've sussed it out!!


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## Flipperty

Blythe said:


> Flipperty said:
> 
> 
> Well, we saw my specialist - the AMH results were shocking 0.57 - I was/am devastated :cry:
> 
> I am SO upset, confused and cross - I had to ask for this test - and when I did he said it was not relevant and it was an expensive test - I said I wish i'd known i'd not had it before the first IVF cycle because if I had have known I'd have asked for it to be done first then discuss options and look at all my results!
> 
> Again, at the time of asking for it he said it was not a test they were bothered about as it did not effect anything they did- and the results we had, day 3 were the ones he was bothered about and that mattered... ( all my tests have been excellent, especially for my age! ) But if I really wanted it i could have it - so like I said before we did have the test, I then had to wait until the appointment in Feb before they would tell me the results!
> 
> So now he showed me the results he changed his tune - now the results *did matter* - now he said this result proves why I did not react at all on the long protocol IVF and I would not be expected to react any better on the short protocol!
> 
> ARGH - so why was I not offered or advised to have the test in the first place - the latest day 3 tests were also shown to us - these again were great - so I asked him how come they do not tally - how come the results of the tests he said *did* matter were so good and the AMH so bad.... he didn't really answer just said that the ones they would take notice of were the AMH as these are the ones showing why I reacted to the drugs as I did!
> 
> he said my overies can age faster than other parts of my body...
> 
> My hubby asked if i would go through the menopause early - he said possibly - possibly my mum did too - Errr hello - what part of my mum was in her mid 40's when she had me and it was years and years later when she went through the change had he not listened to at most visits!?
> 
> when my hubby asked if maybe it was a genetic thing on my side the specialist said it could possibly be.... (this was asked because 2 of my sisters didn't have children ( one had tests and all was well with her but not her OH the other never had tests) BUT - I am the youngest of 7 and the others all have children - and those old enough have children of their own too.... Hmmmm I said why would this be the case if others had had children - he said well as your parents were older this could cause problems - eh? so my next 2 sisters along from me have children - not that big an age difference.... the sisters not having are mixed up in the line up! Hmm again... :shrug:
> 
> None of this was making much sense
> 
> So I asked - how come my scan to check my follicles during a natural cycle was good - 6 and 5 good follicles in each side and so bad with the ivf drugs - he said it was because i have such a low AMH results - I don't get it - how come they were good without drugs?
> 
> I am so confused, frustrated upset and angry - so disheartened and emotionally, mentally and physically drained.... :cry::cry:
> 
> They discussed donor eggs but it's very costly and I'm really unsure.... I think he felt there was little chance of their being any point to a short protocol... Odd how this was the way forward before i insisted on the AMH test - the test I was told was not important! I have been sent a natural cycle protocol to consider - but if i did do well on it and egg collection day fell on a Sunday it would be cancelled as they don't do the procedures on this day... so no point doing that in case this happened surely and yet more money down the drain and another hell of an emotional roller coaster ride ? :shrug:
> 
> I have lots of drugs left from them cancelling on the long protocol that I paid for - and we've paid a good whack for a cancelled cycle that he *now* says makes sense judging by the AMH results? So why did we not have this test offered in the first place then maybe I'd not have gone through so much and it have cost so much in so many ways ....:cry:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am at a loss as to what to do/think... I don't know which way to turn to next, the DHEA etc approach and just pray it happens that way - another shot at IVF but seeing as the specialist seem to be so negative I don't know - if we went for a 2nd opinion I don't know where we'd go... we have just started to speak of adoption - or if I should just walk away and give up on my dream :cry::nope:
> 
> https://babyandbump.momtastic.com/t...fp-dhea-coq10-vitex-black-cohosh-low-amh.html
> 
> Hi flipperty sorry to butt in.....not sure if you have seen notrustys original post (see link above) but Her amh result was not so great and she is now pregnant. It's a great post and she is always happy to give advice.Click to expand...

 You are not butting in at all, thanks for the reply, :thumbup: I need all the help and advice I ca get! :hugs:

I am going to look at hat thread and see if it can help me thanks again xx :hugs:


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## Flipperty

Does anyone think that bad circulation may have an effect on conceiving? I sometimes wonder if mine is not great?


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## 2have4kids

I know that when you exercise regularly you have a much better chance of getting pregnant. Circulation does have an impact, I have no idea how much. My gf got pregnant both times while training for the worlds Iron man. Acupuncture works partly because it helps circulation, they put heat on the lower belly. During cd1-O I have a grain pack that I pop in the microwave and sit with it in the evenings over my abdomen. There's 2 factors to circulation that greatly help fertility *1.Blood circulation into the ovaries* and that region help egg development, lining and oxygenation in general. *2. When you sweat you also help the movement of hormones; they're fat soluable *so burning fat helps your body balance progesterone, estrogen, fsh, and all of the adrenal functions. My nurse friend said I won't respond to IVF unless I lose weight...specifically the fat around my body. I was 206 lbs, 5'9 and a BMI 31 when she told me this. Which is why I'm on a pretty serious diet right now-I REALLY want to respond well do IVF when we do it. I actually decided to get the gastric sleeve so I can resolve my weight issues once and for all. It's helped me lose weight significantly by reducing my hunger/ghreline hormone and by limiting the amount of food I can eat. It doesn't interfere with pregnancy though like any of the other surgeries. I want kids THAT bad, yes-I chopped 1/2 my stomach off to lose weight so that I will respond to the IVF drugs. 

There are so many things that go into unknown infertility. My colleague at work also believes SO many people don't even know they're gluten intolerant, gluten is well known to hinder fertility. I've stopped eating grains until I get pregnant and pass 2nd trimester:
I hate the 'about' website stuff but if it's got info on it you can certainly understand it's pretty common out there.

https://celiacdisease.about.com/od/...ed-Celiac-Disease-Can-Lead-To-Infertility.htm


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## Briss

I agree with 2have, acu and exercise help improve circulation. My acu doc said my circulation is not great because my AF is clotty but after acu and herbs it got better. I also try to exercise but I am not very good at it barely manage 2-3 times before O, I do not exercise after O.


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## Flipperty

Briss said:


> I agree with 2have, acu and exercise help improve circulation. My acu doc said my circulation is not great because my AF is clotty but after acu and herbs it got better. I also try to exercise but I am not very good at it barely manage 2-3 times before O, I do not exercise after O.


Thanks guys :flower:

I do exercise though not quite as much as I did - I had acupuncture for a good while but I started a thread about it - in the end I ended up bleeding and really bruised so stopped and tbh nothing really improved though I did *feel* better in myself ( the first lady i had was fab - the 2nd I didn't feel as relaxed or happy with) 

I wonder if I have always had a bit of a circulation problem - never had anything checked out though so I don't really know :shrug:

I am going to order some supplements but I am not quite sure what I need or how I know exactly how much I need to take? - any ideas folks? 

Sorry to sound naive but what exactly is a softcup - wondering if it's something I should try?


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## Briss

soft cups are used during AF instead of tampons - https://www.softcup.com/ but it was also discovered that they can help with TTC if you insert it after BD to keep sperm closer to cervix and help them get up there. some use soft cups with preseed cos it may extend their life


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## 2have4kids

Hi Flipperty, I don't think anyone can tell you which supplements to take. I have done lots of research and take my supplements to help with age factors, IE after 35 women typically suffer from egg quality issues. I am on another thread with women doing IVF right now and most of them are on Myo-Inositol, coQ10 and a prenatal supplement. 

Here's a website if you wanted to do some reading: https://sites.google.com/site/miscarriageresearch/supplements-and-miscarriage/d-chiro-inositol
The website is titled about miscarriage however all of the research is based off of scientific studies and good general fertility/supplement information.


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## Briss

2have, thanks for the link. do you know why it's considered good to have your DHEA levels lowered? it seems that one of the effects of inositol supplementation is that it lowers DHEA-S (as much as 49% reduction). I'm asking because many ladies here are supplementing with DHEA (presumably to increase their DHEA levels rather than to lower them?) and have good results with improving egg quality. I recently checked my DHEA levels and am considering taking DHEA but am now wandering whether this is a good idea?


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## Blythe

2have - thanks for link.....im eyeing up that black cohosh!

Briss - i think girls with pcos may have super high levels of DHEA and perhaps they want to reduce it although im not certain by any means....


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## 2have4kids

Briss I think it's the PCOS women, like Blyth said, who have issues with high testosterone and DHEA. Not my issue. For older women it helps with insulin resistance and the DHEA helps with declining hormone levels. I stop taking dhea for a few days each month around O because there was something said about it not helping implantation, but again, I think those studies are for PCOS women with super high levels of all the wrong hormones. I just want to be safe. 

Goldie Hawn is a lady to read about. she believes that when we age we lose important hormones and gain bad ones (like estrogen) that help create cancer, help us get fat and her solution is to take certain supplements/hormone replacement to help fertility/help stave off cancer (including breast cancer)/help us stay young. I do believe these things help but you'd really have to read lots to form your own understanding and know what would help your own issues.


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## Briss

thank you ladies, that's helpful. it does look quite complicated. am I right to think that you cant take inositol as well as DHEA because one is increasing DHEA levels while the other is decreasing them? or is it too simplistic way to look at these things?


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## 2have4kids

Flipperty, I wish you all the best with ttc. No matter what path you choose, you are deserving of a family, I hope you're able to make your dream happen soon.


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## xturnitoutx

Flipperty, first let me say GOOD LUCK!!! You seem absolutely lovely and so deserving of babies!! I hope so much that this all works out for you!!

My situation is very different from your own, but I wanted to recommend two books that I feel really helped me. After a missed miscarriage in November (my first pregnancy), I became slightly obsessed with understanding fertility, my body, etc. . . . I've always believed VERY strongly in the importance of proper lifestyle and nutrition (though I've never been very good at sticking to 'proper' when given the choice of wine, yummy food, lazing vs exercising, etc!) . . . anyway, based on the research I did and the advice you've been given on this thread, I thought you might find these books helpful: 

(1) The Infertility Cure: The Ancient Chinese Wellness Program for Getting Pregnant and Having Healthy Babies, by Randine Lewis 

(2) Making Babies: A Proven 3-Month Program for Maximum Fertility, by Sami S. David and Jill Blakeway

At the very least, the books may help you understand your body a bit better and give a sense of control (they did for me at least!). 

I wish you SO MUCH luck on your journey!! Please keep us updated :)


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## Flipperty

Hello ladies - I am back! 

We are giving it our all, for our final go down the IVF route - We have to be realistic and we don't have a bottomless pit of money... We are now 43 and 41. I am incredibly positive and have nothing but great thoughts.... :)

We have started our 2nd IVF - short protocol 

I started taking my meds - Norethisterone on the 17th - this was for 10 days
I am now waiting for my bleed.... 

We go tomorrow eve for drug training - as this will be very different from long protocol

I saw a different doctor at the clinic and went over all of our options, concerns, factors - We spent over 2 hours discussing so much..... and we decided that sort protocol at the highest meds available would be our best option 

I have had some time out as this has been a hell of a rollercoaster of emotion, physically and mentally... that you can never try to explain to anyone not in your situation.... and we have got our heads around things, I have lost more weight and we felt this is out last shot and so we are going to give it our very best go! 

The last IVF cycle left me with cysts and since I have had them occur again..... this set us back.... 

I have a lot to get my head around with the amount of drugs I will be having to have but I am positive and looking forward to the outcome :D xxxx


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## Briss

Flipperty, glad to see you are doing well. best of luck with your IVF! do you mind me asking why they decided to go with short protocol this time?


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## 2have4kids

Hey Flipperty! I'm wishing you all the best with your last cycle. I lost my 60 lbs and then we went on to do 2 failed IVF's and 1 failed donor egg IVF. I had immune testing with the Dr Beers clinic in California and I have pretty bad immune issues so we're doing our last donor egg ivf in June with Serum in Athens as they specialize with treatimg immune issues. They're also letting us use 2 donors' eggs so that if I miscarry OR if I'm successful and want more kids, I'll still have a freezer full of eggs to try in the future. The costs are always with doing the cycle with stims so any FET's won't break the bank. 

Currently and as a lead up to this IVF, I'm having to travel to mexico to do LIT treatments and when I do that I'll be buying Humira in the USA to help with my immune issues and as a treatment to bring down TNF levels and help with implantation before IVF. THey also want me on prednisone and 1 week before IVF to do an IVIg treatment, so much prep work! So fingers crossed that Dr Beers clinic has set me up for success this time. 

My thoughts will be with you, lets hope we both have smooth sailing this go around xx


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## Flipperty

Hello you 2 xx

Briss - For women older or with lower reserve etc etc the short protocol has proved more successful - I did really want this last time - but went with what was suggested at the time as we have 'no issues' so it's a case of going with the flow so to speak...... :) 

2have4kids Hiya :D 

Congrats on your weight loss - brilliant - I have lost a hell of a lot too so i am hoping this is all in good stead for us xx 

I am so sorry for all you have gone through - that is such a lot - the failed cycles with drugs and then the last IVF took a huge toll on me... I can only imagine what you were going through 

Yes the bottomless pit of money that seems to be wanted is crazy - and also so unfair when i see people who seem to be able to claim benefits for everything under the sun... and I am working all hours and paying through the nose for everything ... :nope:

I am on a whole concoction of drugs - The IVF is going to include ICSI ( as it did last time) 

this time there are also new things we will be having 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-25438535

https://www.nurture.ac.uk/news/embryoglue-improves-pregnancy-rates-by-19

xxx


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## 2have4kids

Thanks Flipperty, I've asked my clinic about embryo glue. Why wouldn't I use this? It seems to have really great stats with it. Have you been checked for immune issues? What was happening with your embies? Did they grow ok with your previous IVF's? At least you can produce your own eggs!

I seem to cope ok with the losses, I know there's still time and options available. It's the waiting in between that kills me. We'd have to wait a bit if this one fails to pay off dome debts for sure.


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