# Attitudes to AP/NP in Baby Club...



## littlestar85

Anyone else starting to feel that AP/NP mums are made to feel like we don't belong in Baby Club? Or is it just me...


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## Kota

Nope..... not just you, P ins't really a 'baby' anymore, but I've never felt comfortable in there. I've seen it written on more then one occasion that those that parent the way I choose to are 'high and mighty', 'holier then thou' 'on their high horse' and lots of other such phrases. :( Apparently if you mainstream parent you can judge of those who don't, but if you dont, you have to keep your mouth shut about aspects of mainstream parenting that you disagree with,


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## bky

Baby club just sucks IMO. :haha: if you aren't posing controversial or entertaining things you kind of fall by the wayside. And of course that makes sense because that's what people like to see. Not blaming anyone, that's just how things go. I've often been plain afraid to post in there, not even AP/NP related because the last thing I needed when feeling vulnerable was to be told off. And I've been right a few times when I got up the courage to post. So :shrug:
Toddler land isn't really relevant to me yet, so I've just gone into lurker mode. Like when I was early in 3rd trimester and felt like I didn't belong. Much the same feeling.
I think the sections are better when there are smaller groups tbh. JMO.


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## Lilly12

Yep!! Baby club sucks in my opinion too.
People are very rude in there and a lot of judging going on.


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## Rachel_C

I sometimes lurk in there and occasionally post on somebody else's thread but would never ever start a thread in Baby Club. It feels like if you're not a 'mainstream' parent, if you dare to say anything about why you do certain things or the benefits of them you get accused of thinking you're a better mum, but 'mainstream' mums in there are more than happy and encouraged to go on about why they do stuff with no such accusations. Even if something isn't 'natural' I'd much rather post in NP about *anything* because the ladies in here are so used to being judged that even when somebody comes out with something really awful, they have more tact and tolerance IMO.


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## Rachel_C

Oh I forgot to say, I think it's something you notice more as your LO gets older because you start offering more advice than you ask for. I wouldn't dare offer my thoughts on a lot of Baby Club threads because I would definitely be accused of being holier than thou etc even when offering help in exactly the same kind of way as other mums.


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## Lilly12

Yea I said I was proud of giving birth naturally without pain relief and was called ignorant and all of a sudden accused of that I supposedly feel like I'm better than others and that I supposedly meant that nobody can be proud of giving birth unless it's natural or something. Really obnoxious.
Same with Breastfeeding, alot of the ff ladies get easily upset when you say something about bf'ing..


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## pinkclaire

Tbh baby club is always controversial, I tend to avoid like the plague and stick to other parts of the site! People are always ready to pounce, no matter how you parent!


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## Thumper

I have to say (at risk of a huge slating!) I disagree. Not entirely as yes, some of the posters are very 'my way is best' but surely we just don't notice it in NP as we generally all agree on most topics?
LilLy, I will add (please don't be offended) that you did come across as smug in that post even to me who had a similar birthing experience.
That said a lot of the comments on there lately are so bloody annoying and not relevant to me so I'm spending less time there. I do enjoy reading the debates though lol!


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## Surreal

Ditto! I'll peek through some of the posts, and post occasionally, but I tend to frequent Natural Parenting and other parts of the forum more, since there is less 'clique'ing going on, or people ready to jump the gun and assume what a "bad parent you are!!".


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## Kate&Lucas

I liked it there when Lucas was diddy and it was really handy for advice. I don't know if it's actually changed or I've just noticed other parts of the forum seem friendlier but it does definitely seem like a hostile place to an outsider.


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## Lightworker

Yeah I think that AP/NP parents are viewed as having a superior attitude and people get on the defensive. With my thread yesterday I totally agree my wording could have been better but the principle was the same IYKWIM? You can't really talk about AP without people thinking you are high and mighty. Its also very hypocritical - its like "fit in or we'll push you out"


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## Rose_bud

There's just too many people with too many different parenting styles, so there going to be friction. It probably seems more towards natural parenting because we're very much the minority.
Anything we do that isn't mainstream we do because we think it's better for our child, people recognize that. So certain people instantly get defensive because they assume we judge their way as worse. It's easier for the people who have issues to belittle us for being different than listen to our point of view and make an informed decision! I did that with co sleeping, I don't do it as after research I decided it wasn't for me and my kids. However I don't feel any better or worse than people who do it.
I will say the majority of people I meet/ talk to seem interested in my parenting style even if it's not for them. But there's always a few who spoil it for everyone!


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## NuKe

Lilly12 said:


> Yea I said I was proud of giving birth naturally without pain relief and was called ignorant and all of a sudden accused of that I supposedly feel like I'm better than others and that I supposedly meant that nobody can be proud of giving birth unless it's natural or something. Really obnoxious.
> Same with Breastfeeding, alot of the ff ladies get easily upset when you say something about bf'ing..

I was reading that thread ur talking about and saw ppl jumping on u so went back to find the post they wer talking about... couldnt find it! then realised they had all taken something u said the wrong way!!! too many hormones in that place!!


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## sausages

Oh i stay away now. I ended up being demonised because i got into a discussion with someone about ERF car seats. Woman said she couldnt afford one, even though she thought it was better than FF, yet was sat arguing with me about it on a computer, overbroadband internet and obviously had a car to fit a seat into. None of those things are cheap. I was apparently a cnut cause i told her she was choosing to FF, even though i said that was fine. You can never win! Then there was a whole chinese whispers scenario going on and people started saying i'd tried to scare people with tales of kids being decapitated?!?!? I didn't bother reading anymore. Leave em to it!! :lol: Sometimes a heated thread needs a scapegoat.


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## lozzy21

Yes, god forbid you do anything different with your child because by doing so your calling everyone who didn't do the same a bad mum and saying they abuse their children apparently. Way nicer people in here even when they do disagree with you.


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## punk_pig

I've never thought of myself as either a Natural Parent or a Mainstream one, probably cos I've never done enough reading in to the philosophies behind certain styles, I mix and match. Sometimes I'm put off by an occasional comment but I just ignore that one as not fitting in with my style, I don't judge it to be intrinsically bad!

Maybe I just automatically avoid threads that I know will be controversial?...er except this one of course he he!


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## Elphaba

I rarely go in there either. Like Kate, I did a bit more when Xavier was tiny as it was more helpful when looking for advice/reassurance on newborns than older babies. But yeah, I tend to post my questions in here as it's a friendly group and you're more likely to have a similar outlook to me (although I wouldn't say I'm fully NP by a long chalk). So yeah, I tend to put general questions in here and I sometimes use the weaning section of the forum too.


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## pinkie77

I think I'm so used to people irl being critical and thinking I'm weird that a lot goes over my head now lol. Some things do piss me off though, like it being suggested that I think il a martyr because I had no pain relief with Fi. I just did what I thought was best forme and my baby and always do!


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## littlestar85

Kota said:


> I've seen it written on more then one occasion that those that parent the way I choose to are 'high and mighty', 'holier then thou' 'on their high horse' and lots of other such phrases. :( Apparently if you mainstream parent you can judge of those who don't, but if you dont, you have to keep your mouth shut about aspects of mainstream parenting that you disagree with,

^^EXACTLY!



bky said:


> if you aren't posing controversial or entertaining things you kind of fall by the wayside. And of course that makes sense because that's what people like to see.

^Definitely. I've had lots of threads which I thought were useful ignored whilst other MIL rant/'bad' real life parent/controversial threads are getting pages and pages of replies.



Rachel_C said:


> It feels like if you're not a 'mainstream' parent, if you dare to say anything about why you do certain things or the benefits of them you get accused of thinking you're a better mum, but 'mainstream' mums in there are more than happy and encouraged to go on about why they do stuff with no such accusations. Even if something isn't 'natural' I'd much rather post in NP about *anything* because *the ladies in here are so used to being judged that even when somebody comes out with something really awful, they have more tact and tolerance IMO*.

This is very true. BC seems to have stereotyped AP/NP mums as 'martyrs' for going the extra mile to do what we think is best for our LOs. 'Mainstream' mums can talk till the cows come home about why they do/don't do certain things and give each other advice and support on those things, but it seems that if one of us jumps in we are automatically assumed to be judging even though the AP/NP mums who get pounced on are always really apologetic for 'offending' and do their best to just try and explain nicely - as you said, with* tact and tolerance* - that's what's missing in there IMO.



sausages said:


> You can never win! Then there was a whole chinese whispers scenario going on and people started saying i'd tried to scare people with tales of kids being decapitated?!?!? I didn't bother reading anymore. Leave em to it!! :lol: Sometimes a heated thread needs a scapegoat.

Wow, really? Lol! People really take some things totally the wrong way!  
100% agree about scapegoats, there always has to be one in debates in Baby Club!



Lightworker said:


> You can't really talk about AP without people thinking you are high and mighty. *Its also very hypocritical - its like "fit in or we'll push you out"*

^It seems to be getting more and more like that now, I input less and less into debates now. I remember writing some pretty useful (IMO lol) and informative (and unoffensive!) replies in some debates ages ago and they just got totally ignored. 'Clique' members just kept sidetracking and only commenting on each others posts so loads of the really valuable replies from other members just got lost in pages of nonsense, so frustrating. No one gave you a chance yesterday Lightworker, it didn't take long for the goats and fezs to appear before it was locked and no one got to say anything constructive!

Locking threads drives me crazy too LOL!

x


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## CouldThisBeIt

I saw the same kind of thing on another major parenting forum (mentioning no names) and the AP amongst the group were absolutely demonized. We ended up leaving and forming a small group of our own. We're still together-just 12 of us-six years later. 

But like a train wreck, having read this thread I can't help but go and have a look in there now


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## jen1604

Do you think it might just be because there are SO many people in baby club so more of a mix of personalities/opinions where as in here we are just really a tiny group (compared to baby club) so arguments happen less?
Just an idea :shrug:


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## littlestar85

CouldThisBeIt that's great that you all stuck together as a group! I don't know any other AP/NP mums IRL so this forum is the only place I get to talk about it really. I can only chew DH's ear off so much, lol!



jen1604 said:


> Do you think it might just be because there are SO many people in baby club so more of a mix of personalities/opinions where as in here we are just really a tiny group (compared to baby club) so arguments happen less?
> Just an idea :shrug:

^Definitely true. It's just frustrating that with it being such a large diverse group there isn't an all-round level of tolerance.

x


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## ellie

I sometimes have a look in there these days just to see what people are rowing about :haha: mostly its the same old stuff it seems!
I did enjoy being in there more when LO was tiny and I did learn a lot, not only about development but different methods of doing things, and I think it was from reading lots of that that I decided how I 'didn't' want to do things if that makes sense. Even then though I dont remember starting a huge number of threads in there, I expect there were more in here / BF :haha:
There does look to be a bit of a 'backlash' (not sure if thats a right word) from 'non AP' mummies - dont know what else to call it, I don't like Mainstream actually as I feel like AP/NP should NOT be in the minority and mainstream sounds like we're wierd or something! - But maybe thats part of the point, if we go in there and say how we do things some people feel they have to justify how right they are by telling us how wrong/high and mighty etc we are. :shrug:

Lightworker I scanned through that thread last night (after it got locked) and I kinda knew what you meant and agreed with your first post but could see how much everyone who is "mainstream" (for want of a better word) would jump on the defensive. So many people in BC are so overly defensive and almost like they are looking for things to jump on when anyone says they do things differently, it makes me wonder how uncertain they must feel about their own parenting that they feel the need to justify it by putting other styles like AP/NP down or saying we are "on our high horses" or whatever, whatever the hell that might mean...


I gotta say - and I really dont mean this to offend anyone - but since going back to work I can look at stuff in there and really dont give a toss, since I have no brain-space (or time to devote to online bickering with strangers who wont budge on their views anyway) - but I remember when I was off work I would really get concerned about it all and get involved. If you are at home (and I know SAHMS are busy) with a new baby maybe you have less other stuff to concern yourself with so it becomes more important to get your views across and try to change people's minds and get involved in the arguments etc.
Sorry, I know lots in here are SAHMs and probably dont feel like that, I know what I mean in my own head :)


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## emsy

i feel it ! i posted a thread the other day as i was upset about my families support and comments on my parenting choices and in hind sight i should have posted in here. it prompted the 'come and join us if your the same as us thread' :shrug: i felt as if i was in the wrong for posting in the first place.


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## ellie

:hugs: emsy - repost it in here if you want! :hugs: this def seems a better place for support on AP-related parenting choices. I found often the only advice in bc is usually about having a routine or letting them cry :wacko:


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## lindsayscoob

I tend to read the debates in there, and pick and choose the other threads I read!! Love it in here though, although I tend to lurk more than post!!


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## CouldThisBeIt

Littlestar-like minded support is so important! The ladies I still share a group with are just awesome and are great support for pregnancy issues too. I've seen them go through many pregnancies and smaller children, and they are a wealth of information. I'm still new to this group here, didn't find it till real nappy week but it's nice to see so many British APers since I've moved back here now. 

Ellie, I fully agree. It's such a shame when what seems the most natural thing in the world to me is so foreign to so many. I have a friend who I have distanced myself from since she got pregnant, because she was out getting drunk every weekend, smoked all through pregnancy, and the way that she talks to that baby! He's six months old, failure to thrive, severe reflux, and when he cries all she says is "shut the f*&% up, I've had enough of your whining," before stuffing the dummy back in his mouth. And this is in public, on the school playground (for our older DDs) so I hate to think what she's like at home. And no one blinks an eye, like it's normal. Horrifying. 

Emsy-forget about family support. I hate to say it but it seems to be the way with AP. That said, there are so many things you can do to make life easier on yourself, but most of it comes down to confidence. Don't take any crap from anyone else! ETA-repost it yes! Maybe there are AP things that would help you a little?


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## Thumper

ellie said:


> :hugs: emsy - repost it in here if you want! :hugs: this def seems a better place for support on AP-related parenting choices. I found often the only advice in bc is usually about having a routine or letting them cry :wacko:

Or for boasting that your LO sleeps through the night, moaning about HV (ignore them if they're that bad!), or having a go at MIL. At risk of sounding awful it is the fat baby threads that got me. But I recognise that my views won't echo anyone else's.

I think it's the same as the various stages of pregnancy, third tri was all about labour signs. The same posts keep getting repeated with the new posters coming in.

I agree that there are so many people in BC that there will be so many contrasting views and opinions. Along with some parents that obviously feel that they're being criticised. This is the case in the 'come join me if you do this' thread. That was a bit daft.

I think I've 'outgrown' it. But it was useful. As a pp said I kind of learnt how I *didn't* want to do things!


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## Tegans Mama

I've never posted a thread in BC but I don't feel I belong in here either really apart from some co sleeping and cloth nappies? We would LOVE to ERF but it's impossible for us (T's legs don't bend in the right way :lol: ) and the same goes with slings - she isn't anatomically suitable. I tried to BF but failed.

Those with older babies I really feel toddler's is a BIT friendlier, but won't be for much longer since the new generation is growing up and moving over :lol:


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## ellie

thats an interesting point tegans mama, i had been in the toddler bit a bit more but yeah there will be some moving in there from BC, it will be interesting to see whether it changes or just the fact that you have a toddler not a baby and everything that comes with that makes people a bit less, um, gung-ho ? :shrug:


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## CouldThisBeIt

It might be in part that there's less controversial decisions to make. No more discussions of circumcision and CIO and so on.


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## buttonnose82

with over 140,000 members there are bound too be a huge range of different parenting styles across the boards, there are fewer arguments/upsets in this section but that is more due too the fact it is targeted more at a certain style of parenting where as baby club is open too ALL parenting styles.

I think, the cause of alot of the upset in baby club is more down too peoples way with words rather than their chosen parenting styles, as parent, we are very protective of our children and very defensive of our chosen parenting styles, nobody is 'right' and nobody is 'wrong' it is all about what works best for you, your child and your family at the end of the day, and noone should judge anyone else on that :shrug:


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## Lightworker

Littlestar- yep exactly that. I was in a state trying to alter the wording (doh! I am clearly socially inept with words) to suit people's sensitivities and I never got a chance to clearly explain what I meant. If I had explained properly alot of people would not have felt the way they do. I think everyone is on the starting line just ready to pounce :shrug:


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## Pikkle

I have never been in there, but just had a look and don't think its the right place for me. I shall stay here!

Although, I'm not smug, on my high horse or anything (I don't think) I just base everything on a fully informed decision, in the best interest of my kids and their health, and would only offer advice based on knowledge and accurate research, not because I am being smug, but because I am trying to be helpful!


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## Eala

Whether it's down to hormones or whatever, tempers are shorter in Baby Club. So yes, people are more sensitive. Particularly as new parents, it's very easy to feel like you are being criticised. Which is where word choice comes in.

As Buttonnose has raised, if people feel like they are getting flack, and getting told they are smug or holier-than-thou, perhaps they need to look at how they are posting? It takes two groups to make things into a "them and us" scenario. Too often, I've seen people from both sides basically saying "If you don't do things my way then you don't care for your child". Oh, it might be danced around and not said in those exact words, but it's very much implied. Which is obviously going to get anyone's back up. It's so much easier (and kinder) to just say "Well, X, Y and Z didn't work for me, we did A,B and C, so maybe you could try that?" Rather than "I could NEVER do X, Y, or Z, it's so selfish!" or "I don't understand why people do X,Y or Z, it's just making excuses" and so on.

Edited to clarify what I meant.


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## buttonnose82

Eala can you please be my brain for the day? you put into words pretty much what I was trying too say but better lol


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## lozzy21

Some times it is just the way people word things but some people just seem to think if you do it differently your attacking their parenting choices. Iv had convosations with girls from this forum allthough not on the forum that has litertaly gone when talking about car seats, me saying "we have chosen to go ERF"
"why?"
"studdies show its safer than FF" 
"Oh so im careless cos im going FF?"

Some people just like to argue and have a go at any one who does things differently.


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## Kate&Lucas

buttonnose82 said:


> I think, the cause of alot of the upset in baby club is more down too peoples way with words rather than their chosen parenting styles, as parent, we are very protective of our children and very defensive of our chosen parenting styles, nobody is 'right' and nobody is 'wrong' it is all about what works best for you, your child and your family at the end of the day, and noone should judge anyone else on that :shrug:

Couldn't agree more.

I think a lot of it could be that there _have _been judgemental and 'holier than thou' postings in there (or even on other parenting forums) causing upset and offence, so people instantly get their backs up and are more likely to take things the wrong way. Also, call me crazy, but starting a thread in an area of the forum where you know about 99% of the replies will be from people taking offence and/or starting an argument, might not be the smartest idea? I'm all for freedom of speech, but if you're going to get all bent about the reaction maybe post somewhere more suitable? :shrug:

I had a nose in there last night and honestly some of the posts shocked me. Since when did becoming a parent qualify us to instruct others how to parent? :nope:


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## sausages

Eala, you are so right. 9 times out of 10 i try really hard to type in an inoffensive way. I think that one time i didn't read it through properly before posting and before i knew it i had a legion of "how very dare you!" posters all up in my grill, which of course did nothing more than put me straight on the defensive. 

People should try hard to think through what they're typing, but equally, people should try to not be so sensitive about what a person says. When someone doesn't think their first post through that causes an OMG! and a emotive not as well thought out response, which means the first poster also gets defensive and even less likely to see straight and put the required level of forethought into their post and so on and so forth. It's a nasty spiraling out of control situation sometimes.

Meh, people are not robots and usually only get emotional because they care. Whether it's care for the children or the mummy they're giving advice for, or caring for the person who's currently being dogpiled. It just gets lost in translation a bit at times. :lol:


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## Mum2b_Claire

Yes I agree, just when I thought there was more and more AP type parents in baby club, there seems to have been some kind of backlash.

I don't know HOW many times someone has accused me of accusing them of being a bad mother. And apparently I'm smug because I don't leave my baby to cry! Okaaaaaay


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## ellie

I agree with Lozzy and Claire ....
I try really really hard to word posts really carefully and almost never say anything I think might be 'controversial' or deliberately upsetting. Because of that I sincerely believe that if people take offence to what I am saying it is becauase of their own issues or attitude, not because I have worded things wrongly, and I can't do anything about that :shrug:
Saying that I only remember a handful of times where people have openly argued / stropped about what I have said, I think i got a bit careless on one thread once because I couldnt be bothered trying to pussyfoot around people anymore and someone accused me of "having a dig" when I wasnt at all, it was what they chose to perceive from what I wrote. Some people really do go looking for things to upset them or presume that anyone who says they do things differently is having a direct personal go at them :shrug: (Like claire, I'm sure Ive been part of threads where its gone Me: "my baby wakes up loads at night" others: "we did CC and its the best thing we ever did, my baby is happy and has no problems at all" Me: "I could never let my baby cry" others: "oh get off your high horse, I had to let my baby cry because of x y z and we are both happy so how dare you tell me I am a bad mother" Me: :wacko: :shrug: )
In those cases, I really do think it's the reader's problem, not the writer's, if the writing is careful.
One of the FB pages I am on has a disclaimer that if anyone ever writes anything like "you are a bad mother because..." or "oh, so you are saying I am a bad mother are you?" they are banned! Bit harsh for somewhere like bnb perhaps but I thought the point was good!

it even happens with talk of nappies fgs ... someone from NP "I hate sposies / I love cloth" other "I use sposies, are you saying I dont care about my child" :wacko: 

Lets be honest though, when you have just had a baby who is capable of being so thoroughly careful and considerate at all times?


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## JA1988

This is all very true, I have gone to write several replies over in baby club and in the end I didn't bother as even if I tried to word it carefully, there would still be someone who takes offence. I have just decided that if there is something over that I disagree with or am shocked by, I'm best to just keep my mouth shut. I have to say though that I do disagree with a lot of what is written in baby club, especially petty threads that are bound to cause gang mentality (the thread I am referring to has already been mentioned in this thread). 

Anyway I am rambling now but I guess I have just decided that natural parenting is where I feel most able to post something without getting my head bitten off and this is also where I am most likely to get a reply that is relevant to my parenting style. I actually posted a thread in baby club the other day about my 5 and a half month old who still has dire sleeping habits and still breastfeeds constantly but the only replies I got were suggestions to introduce routine, cry it out etc so none were really relevant. Perhaps I should repost here! xx


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## Mum2b_Claire

People also give others rather a lot of power IMO - it's constantly 'you made me feel X' or 'you made me feel Y' I'm not being funny, but if you are confident you aren't X or Y then how an earth can someone (espec a stranger on the internet) MAKE you feel it?


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## Lightworker

The problem is, as it was rightly pointed out, there so many personalities in there and not everything will suit everyone. I try my hardest to be tactful, and my intentions are never bad, but obviously sometimes I may not have thought thoroughly, or felt, that my posts would upset people (as unbelievable as that may be) . What gets me is even when people try to make amends, moms still want to punish you :shrug: - its like they want to remain angry at things.


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## lozzy21

Mum2b_Claire said:


> People also give others rather a lot of power IMO - it's constantly 'you made me feel X' or 'you made me feel Y' I'm not being funny, but if you are confident you aren't X or Y then how an earth can someone (espec a stranger on the internet) MAKE you feel it?

Exactly, No one can force you to feel an emotion, they may do something that brings on that responce but for you to feel an emotion you need to have allready have some issue with it.


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## Lightworker

Mum2b_Claire said:


> People also give others rather a lot of power IMO - it's constantly 'you made me feel X' or 'you made me feel Y' I'm not being funny, but if you are confident you aren't X or Y then how an earth can someone (espec a stranger on the internet) MAKE you feel it?

I think a while ago, a mom said that very same thing about not being able to make anyone feel anything, and she was quickly shot down because they said it was BS.


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## ellie

Mum2b_Claire said:


> People also give others rather a lot of power IMO - it's constantly 'you made me feel X' or 'you made me feel Y' I'm not being funny, but if you are confident you aren't X or Y then how an earth can someone (espec a stranger on the internet) MAKE you feel it?

:thumbup: This really annoys me, though of course it happens a lot in life not just on here. If you are not aware of your own thoughts/beliefs about something, like your parenting for example, perhaps it's easy for a comment from someone else (no matter how it was intentioned) to 'push that trigger'. Of course if that person has intended to upset you, thats one thing, but its not generally very likely on an internet forum with so many members who are strangers. If they havent, I still think that the reader needs to be a bit more aware of themselves if they are having a reaction to something they read. I get upset by some things I read but I rarely blame the words for that, I know why those things upset me and I know it is way more useful for me to think about that rather than reacting/blaming the person who wrote the words, that is way too simplistic if you ask me. So that's why it annoys me, because the blame gets put on the person who wrote it and they are told to "be more sensitive". Its certainly not "BS" to say that no one can "make" you feel anything, others can trigger a feeling in you but its the individual's response. I find though that those of us who are into AP etc tend to be of that view. It kind of annoys me when someone reacts to e.g. someone saying that CIO has been shown to have a negative effect on a baby's developing brain (which is a FACT) and you just dont want to hear that, fine you can dismiss that information as it doesnt fit with what you do, but it annoys me when that person then blames whoever posted that for 'making them upset' or 'making them feel bad'. Now that's BS!

Sorry but this is meant to be an informational/support forum is it not? Therefore I fail to see why writing things about, say, AP or the benefits of cloth nappies, is being insensitive to people who may not have thought about using those things? :shrug: Like someone else says, it seems very acceptable for advice to include (e.g.) CIO/CC, smacking, time outs etc, but not co sleeping, baby wearing, AP, gentle discipline etc. Is that not others being insensitive to us, to suggest those things? :shrug:


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## Hayley90

i can honestly say in all my time here i cant remember a time when someone in BC has upset me, a few of the girls in there are really lovely. 

HOWEVER. 

I find that personally i am more level headed / objective about things. Like yesterday on the circ thread inthere... someone posted something about jabs in the circ thread.... it was along the lines of not wanting their kids to feel pain, so someone said 'oh so you dont vax then?' innocently... everyone else would have leapt on them for it, so i explained what they meant. 

Sometimes people are too quick to jump when they need to step back, ignore their own point of view and be objective... NPers aswell. 

Id never tell anyone that FF was 'disgusting' or that jabs were 'poison' but i have read it here, and its not fair on anyone - on the people who do those things who are insulted by an awful choice of adjective, and also on those who dont do those things, but who get tarred with the high-horse brush. x


----------



## Hayley90

Also... its not just NP-related stuff either. Im sick of the work debate, and if i hear one more person tell me that i am neglectful, or am 'choosing to leave my child' i might scream :lol:

So its not just NP-ers that feel the brunt in there, unfortunately :(


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## Mum2b_Claire

ellie - well you would think so wouldn't you. I think the very worst one (for me anyway) is people saying you shouldn't talk about ERF unless someone has very specifically asked the question, just in case someone who uses a FF seat gets 'made to feel like a bad mum'. I'm sorry, but babys' safety is more important than a mums feelings!


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## Hayley90

Mum2b_Claire said:


> ellie - well you would think so wouldn't you. I think the very worst one (for me anyway) is people saying you shouldn't talk about ERF unless someone has very specifically asked the question, just in case someone who uses a FF seat gets 'made to feel like a bad mum'. I'm sorry, but babys' safety is more important than a mums feelings!

:rofl: thats like saying no one can talk about giving birth, as EMCS mums will feel bad. or breastfeeding at risk of hurting the FFers... lets all just put plugs in our ears, blindfolds over our eyes and be un-offended shall we :lol: 

That is laughable at best :rofl:


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## Mum2b_Claire

I've honestly been there with a particular person in BC at least twice. I lecture and ram things down peoples throats, I force people to read stuff, my god in person I am actually not at all pushy, but I hate sugar coating and pussy footing around people who refuse to take responsibility for their own emotions and issues!


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## Hayley90

Mum2b_Claire said:


> I've honestly been there with a particular person in BC at least twice. I lecture and ram things down peoples throats, I force people to read stuff, my god in person I am actually not at all pushy, but *I hate sugar coating and pussy footing around people who refuse to take responsibility for their own emotions and issues!*

:rofl: love this!!!! you are like me, but better :rofl:


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## sausages

It's sad because the only way i know about a lot of my NP choices is through reading debates and threads in forums. If people were forced to keep quiet out of fear for being labelled as being pushy or getting up on their high horse, then how are new parents going to find out about things?


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## Mum2b_Claire

Exactly sausages. A former member of here introduced me to a lot of things / ways to do things, but she was constantly being shot down really horribly by others. 
If you don't know about something, you don't know to ask about it, do you? Sometimes just giving out the info when it hasn't necessarily been asked for, is really valuable.


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## ellie

No we should all keep quiet!
The way I found out about things like BLW, ERF, baby wearing was through threads on BnB, probably debates which led me to think I wanted to find out more about certain things and less about other things ;) I'd never heard of them otherwise and probably wouldnt have if people hadnt been thoughtful enough to raise them on threads for the benefit of people like me. So, thanks!

Hayley - I'm with you on the work one - and yes sometimes I do feel guilty / sad etc for leaving my LO to go to work, but I have my own reasons and I am happy with them, so I don't react to people who make comments about that kind of thing. If, though, I (for exmaple) didnt want to go to work and felt awful but needed the money or something, it may well upset me more. But even then I wouldnt necessarily blame the person writing the words (they are just words, after all) unless they were directly saying to me personally "you are a terrible mother for abandoning your child and going to work" etc. Which MIL does occasionally .... :wacko: but thats different!

I think it would be a shame though if people who have so much knowledge about "different" or "marginalised" styles of parenting stayed away from "mainstream" boards becaues of fear of backlash, because then new people wouldnt get to hear about them.


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## Hayley90

ellie said:


> Hayley - I'm with you on the work one - and yes sometimes I do feel guilty / sad etc for leaving my LO to go to work, but I have my own reasons and I am happy with them, so I don't react to people who make comments about that kind of thing. If, though, I (for exmaple) didnt want to go to work and felt awful but needed the money or something, it may well upset me more. But even then I wouldnt necessarily blame the person writing the words (they are just words, after all) unless they were directly saying to me personally "you are a terrible mother for abandoning your child and going to work" etc. Which MIL does occasionally .... :wacko: but thats different!

exactly... thats what i meant by being objective about it, its incredibly hard to upset me on here :lol: I can look from everyones POV without taking everything personally, which seems to be a limited quality on here :lol: I still love it though, and BC can be incredibly funny at times, there are some lovely girls in amongst the bunch :)


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## Lightworker

Sorry OT- but on the "you're making me feel.." issue, my DD1 was upset that she smiled at someone and they ignored her, and she said I feel upset. I told her the person was probably tired or ill, but that she should always know she is a special, wonderful person and we love her. Its weird trying to explain it to a child, but I understand it cause I spent a huge chunk of my life blaming others for my feelings. Sorry for going OT! x


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## buttonnose82

but people can say their opinions without being so harsh & pushy ..... everyone has their own opinion on things and it is nice too see other peoples opinions but it is the way some people go about it (in all different parenting styles) that causes problems! Sometimes we all just need too think outside the box and think before we type because words on a screen can be interpreted in alot of different ways and not always as they were meant too be, words can hurt

no sole parenting method is better than another


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## xemmax

I think it's really sad.

I think much of it is the fact that the definition of a parenting style ('attached parent') immediately creates a divide. There is no common definition for the opposite (hence the thread in BC that just calls them "Mums like this" or something like that) - so perhaps that creates the feeling that attached parents believe they are parenting on a more 'conscious' level - ie putting more consideration into their choices (I'm not saying it's true - I'm saying that maybe because a definition exists for AP but not for the opposite, that it might make people feel that way). It becomes a 'them VS us' situation - the feeling which lingers behind most of the debates on here (bf vs ff, erf vs ff, working mum vs sahm, etc etc). It's sad because the divide is totally unecessary - it's like the fact that we all mothers is totally forgotten.

I definitely get the sense that if you are a natural parent it isn't 'cool' in Baby Club at the moment. I've never defined my parenting style but many of my beliefs lie with natural parenting, and the way I parent is completely different to all of my friends so I'm very much used to being 'the odd one out'. The only difference is that in real life, my friends don't assume they must have nothing in common with me because I use cloth/breastfeed/feed my baby to sleep whereas they use disposables/FF/use CC - we just share stories about our children and we learn from each other, as it should be on here.


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## buttonnose82

can I ask your girls opinion on something

do you think the label 'natural parenting' helps the issues, I just wonder if thats why others get upset, by saying you are natural parenting you are therefore implying that others are unnaturally parenting and thats might be why others get upset? thoughts? could there be a better label?


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## Mum2b_Claire

well yes, the label could be seen as an attack, however - you can't really argue with the facts that for example breastfeeding is more natural than FF, and that cloth is more 'nature / enviromentally' friendly than sposies, and that attending to your crying baby is more natural than leaving them. If you are choosing to do all the opposite things to what natural parenting usually is, then surely being natural isn't of massive importance to you anyway? So you wouldn't mind it being said you don't do things the natural way. Just a thought.


----------



## xemmax

buttonnose82 said:


> can I ask your girls opinion on something
> 
> do you think the label 'natural parenting' helps the issues, I just wonder if thats why others get upset, by saying you are natural parenting you are therefore implying that others are unnaturally parenting and thats might be why others get upset? thoughts? could there be a better label?

I think you might get a better response by asking those who don't frequent this forum. To me, I don't think the term 'natural parenting' is offensive at all, but then I consider a lot of my choices in parenting to be 'natural'... people who don't make the same choices might find it offensive though... if you see what i mean :shrug:


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## buttonnose82

I just wonder if there is a better label thats all, I understand why it is called natural parenting


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## littlestar85

buttonnose82 said:


> I think, the cause of alot of the upset in baby club is more *down too peoples way with words rather than their chosen parenting styles,*

I don't think that's always the case, I mean yes it does happen, but more often than not AP/NP mums are shot down even when their wording is as politically correct and unoffensive as it can be...

Like lozzy21 said, some people just want an argument, but moreover I think that ellie has hit the nail on the head - 



ellie said:


> I agree with Lozzy and Claire ....
> I try really really hard to word posts really carefully and almost never say anything I think might be 'controversial' or deliberately upsetting. Because of that I sincerely believe that if people take offence to what I am saying it is becauase of their own issues or attitude, not because I have worded things wrongly, and I can't do anything about that :shrug:...
> In those cases, I really do think it's the reader's problem, not the writer's, if the writing is careful.

People get wired up by an implication e.g. "I couldn't let my baby cry" or even just a reminder "I BF" that touches a nerve with them and it spirals into sensitive territory. In which case Mum2b_Claire is right -



Mum2b_Claire said:


> *People also give others rather a lot of power *IMO - it's constantly 'you made me feel X' or 'you made me feel Y' I'm not being funny, but if you are confident you aren't X or Y then how an earth can someone (espec a stranger on the internet) MAKE you feel it?

If you think someone thinks their choices are better than yours... so what? If you're confident in your choices why let a stranger make you feel like your choice are questionable???

If someone asks for opinions on a particular issues AP/NP mums should be entitled to not 'sugar coat' just like 'mainstream' (I agree with pp, we need a different term for that) mums are.


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## CouldThisBeIt

I see where you are coming from, and yes I can see the term being divisive. Calling it AP suggests that those that don't aren't attached to their infants. Calling it natural leaves the suggestion that they are unnatural. Compassionate suggests a lack of compassion. It almost seems like it's more traditional versus modern parenting-but that doesn't work for us either because ignoring your children in the "children should be seen and not heard" attitude was traditional until recent generations. 

Tough question really!


----------



## buttonnose82

littlestar85 said:


> buttonnose82 said:
> 
> 
> I think, the cause of alot of the upset in baby club is more *down too peoples way with words rather than their chosen parenting styles,*
> 
> I don't think that's always the case, I mean yes it does happen, but more often than not AP/NP mums are shot down even when their wording is as politically correct and unoffensive as it can be...Click to expand...

I have no doubt thats true, but I have also seen it work the other way around too, no one is perfect :flower:


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## Mum2b_Claire

I actually would go as far as to say that I don't think it is the AP/NP mums who, as a rule, word things aggressively / defensively / sarcastically / make it personal when it is a concept being discussed.


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## xemmax

CouldThisBeIt said:


> I see where you are coming from, and yes I can see the term being divisive. Calling it AP suggests that those that don't aren't attached to their infants. Calling it natural leaves the suggestion that they are unnatural. Compassionate suggests a lack of compassion. It almost seems like it's more traditional versus modern parenting-but that doesn't work for us either because ignoring your children in the "children should be seen and not heard" attitude was traditional until recent generations.
> 
> Tough question really!

And as my Mum likes to remind me - "none of what you're doing is new, you know!" (She co-slept, breastfed 3 children until 2-4 years, used a sling, used terrys, etc etc)

I think the divide has always been there, there just weren't parenting forums for women to argue about it before!


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## Mum2b_Claire

I often refer to mainstream parenting as 'conventional' or '20th century parenting' and nobody has shouted at me yet...


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## littlestar85

I don't think the term 'natural' is the issue, I don't think that anyone can say that BFing, babywearing (I doubt ancient man had prams) and most of the other 'natural' parenting things are unnatural therefore the term applies irregardless.

The issue is more with 'attachment parenting' as the theory in itself, I guess, claims to be better than non-attachment parenting and everyone knows that is its belief. AP mummies believe that I'm sure, that's why we do it, and non-AP mummies know we think that; just as we know that they believe their way is the 'right' way. I don't think it's right to tell someone your/their way is 'right' or 'wrong' but we can all roughly guess what AP mummies think of controversial mainstream things like CIO. So even if we say absolutely NOTHING offensive, non-AP mummies will assume we're judging as soon as we mention AP.


----------



## littlestar85

buttonnose82 said:


> littlestar85 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> buttonnose82 said:
> 
> 
> I think, the cause of alot of the upset in baby club is more *down too peoples way with words rather than their chosen parenting styles,*
> 
> I don't think that's always the case, I mean yes it does happen, but more often than not AP/NP mums are shot down even when their wording is as politically correct and unoffensive as it can be...Click to expand...
> 
> I have no doubt thats true, but I have also seen it work the other way around too, no one is perfect :flower:Click to expand...

Of course, I've seen it a lot too. But I do think that the majority of the time AP mums are unoffensive on certain issues but it gets taken out of proportion by others. :flower:


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## CouldThisBeIt

I know that I fall into that trap a lot. Otherwise-why go to the effort? There is a lot to AP that is more effort, so we have to be doing it for a reason. Namely, that we believe in it, and believe it to be the best.


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## Eala

I think my issue here is that what is "natural" for one person is absolutely not "natural" to someone else :shrug:

God, I feel like a broken record because I always end up saying something like this whenever this issue comes up :dohh:

It really comes down to what people mean by the word natural. Are we talking about "close to nature"? Are we talking eco-friendly? Or do we mean that it's about doing what feels right to you as a parent, naturally following your child's lead. And, given that children ARE different in what they need or like, what may be natural for me and my child, won't be natural for someone else. It doesn't mean that either of us is unnatural, it just means that we both understand what our child needs.

So I suppose I'm saying that no, I don't like the term "Natural Parenting" and I don't think it's a good name for this section. Attachment Parenting is one thing - it's a recognised style, it has certain behaviours and choices associated with it. But I think you'd really struggle to find a definition of a "natural" parent that isn't going to put people's backs up.

If it were down to me, I'd call this section Attachment and Eco Parenting, or something like that. Covers the baby-wearing, covers co-sleepng, covers the cloth nappies, and those seem to be the main topics which tend to be covered in here.


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## littlestar85

Eala said:


> I think my issue here is that what is "natural" for one person is absolutely not "natural" to someone else :shrug:
> 
> God, I feel like a broken record because I always end up saying something like this whenever this issue comes up :dohh:
> 
> It really comes down to what people mean by the word natural. Are we talking about "close to nature"? Are we talking eco-friendly? Or do we mean that it's about doing what feels right to you as a parent, naturally following your child's lead. And, given that children ARE different in what they need or like, what may be natural for me and my child, won't be natural for someone else. It doesn't mean that either of us is unnatural, it just means that we both understand what our child needs.
> 
> So I suppose I'm saying that no, I don't like the term "Natural Parenting" and I don't think it's a good name for this section. Attachment Parenting is one thing - it's a recognised style, it has certain behaviours and choices associated with it. But I think you'd really struggle to find a definition of a "natural" parent that isn't going to put people's backs up.
> 
> If it were down to me, I'd call this section Attachment and Eco Parenting, or something like that. Covers the baby-wearing, covers co-sleepng, covers the cloth nappies, and those seem to be the main topics which tend to be covered in here.

I agree that AP should have its own section for sure.


----------



## buttonnose82

Eala said:


> I think my issue here is that what is "natural" for one person is absolutely not "natural" to someone else :shrug:
> 
> God, I feel like a broken record because I always end up saying something like this whenever this issue comes up :dohh:
> 
> *It really comes down to what people mean by the word natural. Are we talking about "close to nature"? Are we talking eco-friendly? Or do we mean that it's about doing what feels right to you as a parent, naturally following your child's lead. And, given that children ARE different in what they need or like, what may be natural for me and my child, won't be natural for someone else. It doesn't mean that either of us is unnatural, it just means that we both understand what our child needs.*
> 
> So I suppose I'm saying that no, I don't like the term "Natural Parenting" and I don't think it's a good name for this section. Attachment Parenting is one thing - it's a recognised style, it has certain behaviours and choices associated with it. But I think you'd really struggle to find a definition of a "natural" parent that isn't going to put people's backs up.
> 
> If it were down to me, I'd call this section Attachment and Eco Parenting, or something like that. Covers the baby-wearing, covers co-sleepng, covers the cloth nappies, and those seem to be the main topics which tend to be covered in here.

I think you just hit the nail on the head as too what I was asking


----------



## bumpy_j

xemmax said:


> buttonnose82 said:
> 
> 
> can I ask your girls opinion on something
> 
> do you think the label 'natural parenting' helps the issues, I just wonder if thats why others get upset, by saying you are natural parenting you are therefore implying that others are unnaturally parenting and thats might be why others get upset? thoughts? could there be a better label?
> 
> I think you might get a better response by asking those who don't frequent this forum. To me, I don't think the term 'natural parenting' is offensive at all, but then I consider a lot of my choices in parenting to be 'natural'... people who don't make the same choices might find it offensive though... if you see what i mean :shrug:Click to expand...

i agree, 

although 'natural' parenting is slightly MORE natural, it's a bit of a an incorrect term - nappies, whether cloth or not are NOT natural - you don't see it in the animal kingdom, need a poop? patch o grass. same with slings, pushchairs yes are deemed MORE unnatural but we don't have kangaroo pouches so we make an unnatural alternative - thus the sling. i think something like 'eco' or 'organic' parenting would be more appropriate although not everything discussed on this forum may go under that umbrella 

feeding is the only thing that id deem with a clear natural/unnatural divide - hope that doesn't offend FFs it's not meant to, just that BFing is what we're genetically designed to do having boobies and all that


----------



## littlestar85

Mum2b_Claire said:


> I often refer to mainstream parenting as 'conventional' or *'20th century parenting'* and nobody has shouted at me yet...

:thumbup:


----------



## buttonnose82

you know what, I was just sat here, watching good old JK and re reading this and figured ....

why do we need too label different parenting styles? :shrug: from now on, my parenting style is 'button parenting' :thumbup:


----------



## nickyXjayno

I haven't had my baby yet but when I do I hope to have as natural a birth as possible as I don't want to feel out of it or unable to move.
I also hope to breastfeed as have read many of the benefits.
I will be using non reusable nappies, I won't be co sleeping nor will I let my child cry it out.
I want to use both a pram and a sling/baby carrier.
I'd say this makes me a sort of middle ground between Natural parenting and the mainstream?

I was explaining my choices to a woman who has just got back from maternity leave and she pretty much shot me down.
She said breastfeeding isn't good for the child and you don't know how much they are eating.
They won't settle properly ever and baby slings are stupid as what happens if you fall over?

The way she said these things made me feel a bit stupid like my child would be malnourished and irritable, also in danger from me crushing it if I fall while carrying.

I didn't argue with her but gave a non commital reply.
I don't know where she got her breastfeeding facts from but ohwell I didn't want to argue so didn't ask.

I do think people need to think about how they phrase things as can lead to confusion/upset.
We are also very sensitive when it comes to our babies, even before they are born!
xxx


----------



## ellie

^^ see, how is it okay for someone to criticise another's parenting one way but it seems to be not okay to do it the other way? :shrug: :hugs: nickyXjayno, that was really unfair of her to do that to you!

I think I've said before about 'natural parenting' not really summing up this section any more, I like Eala's suggestion really. Lots of the stuff talked about in here is not "natural" as such (lol!) but I would also not call it anything like alternative or unconventional or anything like that. As someone else said, we're not doing anything new, it's all 'old ways' that have fallen by the wayside in recent times but are becoming more popular again.


----------



## Eala

bumpy_j said:


> feeding is the only thing that id deem with a clear natural/unnatural divide - hope that doesn't offend FFs it's not meant to, just that BFing is what we're genetically designed to do having boobies and all that

But again, this depends on what you are meaning by "Natural". In this case, you are obviously taking the tack that "natural" is something that can be done without any artificial aids, or is the same in nature (as in animals who suckle their young) etc. I won't disagree with that, formula is artificial.

However, without that kind of explanation, then just labelling formula feeding as not "natural" is going to get people upset. Because here's my take:

Feeding yoru baby is natural. Whether that is by breast, bottle, NG tube, PEG tube, formula, breastmilk, combination of them both, soy, animal, puree, non-puree, you are feeding your child. THAT is natural. It's a fundamental part of being a parent, no matter how you do it. What is distinctly unnatural (as well as illegal and downright wrong) would be to not feed your child. As that goes against the parenting instincts of the majority of beings on this planet.

Do you see whereI'm coming from? I'm not having a go at you, as I can totally understand what you were getting at with your comment. But this illustrates perfectly to me the issues with the ambiguity surrounding the word "natural", and what people understand by it.


----------



## JA1988

Eala said:


> bumpy_j said:
> 
> 
> feeding is the only thing that id deem with a clear natural/unnatural divide - hope that doesn't offend FFs it's not meant to, just that BFing is what we're genetically designed to do having boobies and all that
> 
> But again, this depends on what you are meaning by "Natural". In this case, you are obviously taking the tack that "natural" is something that can be done without any artificial aids, or is the same in nature (as in animals who suckle their young) etc. I won't disagree with that, formula is artificial.
> 
> However, without that kind of explanation, then just labelling formula feeding as not "natural" is going to get people upset. Because here's my take:
> 
> Feeding yoru baby is natural. Whether that is by breast, bottle, NG tube, PEG tube, formula, breastmilk, combination of them both, soy, animal, puree, non-puree, you are feeding your child. THAT is natural. It's a fundamental part of being a parent, no matter how you do it. What is distinctly unnatural (as well as illegal and downright wrong) would be to not feed your child. As that goes against the parenting instincts of the majority of beings on this planet.
> 
> Do you see whereI'm coming from? I'm not having a go at you, as I can totally understand what you were getting at with your comment. *But this illustrates perfectly to me the issues with the ambiguity surrounding the word "natural", and what people understand by it*.Click to expand...

I get what your saying, but I think if we were to run a poll on the forum asking what people thought this particular 'natural parenting' section of the forum was about, I am pretty certain that most people would say it was a section for parents who choose eco-friendly, organic, attachment parenting style options for their child and I think very few people would deem it to mean that it is a section for parents who respond to their children as a natural instinct, insinuating that other parents on the forum make choices which are unnatural and wrong.

I understand what you are saying in that 'natural' can be defined in many different ways, but what I am trying to say is that in this instance I think the majority of baby and bump users think cloth nappies, organic food, clothes, skincare etc etc when they see the 'natural parenting' section.

ETA- I don't think it is the word 'natural' that is causing offence, more perhaps that every mother is, whether they admit it or not, sensitive when it comes to parenting choices as 9 times out of 10, a mother makes the choices she does as she believes it is the best choice for her baby and when someone challenges that it is likely to hit a nerve.


----------



## bumpy_j

Eala said:


> bumpy_j said:
> 
> 
> feeding is the only thing that id deem with a clear natural/unnatural divide - hope that doesn't offend FFs it's not meant to, just that BFing is what we're genetically designed to do having boobies and all that
> 
> But again, this depends on what you are meaning by "Natural". In this case, you are obviously taking the tack that "natural" is something that can be done without any artificial aids, or is the same in nature (as in animals who suckle their young) etc. I won't disagree with that, formula is artificial.
> 
> However, without that kind of explanation, then just labelling formula feeding as not "natural" is going to get people upset. Because here's my take:
> 
> Feeding yoru baby is natural. Whether that is by breast, bottle, NG tube, PEG tube, formula, breastmilk, combination of them both, soy, animal, puree, non-puree, you are feeding your child. THAT is natural. It's a fundamental part of being a parent, no matter how you do it. What is distinctly unnatural (as well as illegal and downright wrong) would be to not feed your child. As that goes against the parenting instincts of the majority of beings on this planet.
> 
> Do you see whereI'm coming from? I'm not having a go at you, as I can totally understand what you were getting at with your comment. But this illustrates perfectly to me the issues with the ambiguity surrounding the word "natural", and what people understand by it.Click to expand...

I get what you mean but I meant that I didnt like the word 'natural' because I personally see natural as what our human instincts would be if we lived in a world of no technology (so no nappies, methods of transportation or formula/bottles) breastfeeding is the only thing i can really think of that falls under that, that and chewing up purees and spitting them in your LOs mouth (so yeah, thank god for technology!). I just really think its the wrong word but thats my personal interpretation of the term and I completely know what you're saying :flower:


----------



## lynnikins

i read this thread earlier then popped into baby club as i hadnt been there for a while since i count EJ as a toddler lol and saw a thread all about how proud someone was of conforming to the "norms" of society rather than doing what she did because she was convinced it was the absolute best option for her children and family. my choices might get labeled as "natural" and " alternative" but i make them because i believe its best for my family, so even if that means MR cloth bum ( EJ ) has spent over a week in sposies because Mummys morning sickness wouldnt allow her to do the nappy wash and Dad refuses then its my choice and i do it for my reasons, even if its not strictly "natural" to use sposies every so often


----------



## Sam292

Lightworker said:


> Littlestar- yep exactly that. I was in a state trying to alter the wording (doh! I am clearly socially inept with words) to suit people's sensitivities and I never got a chance to clearly explain what I meant. If I had explained properly alot of people would not have felt the way they do. I think everyone is on the starting line just ready to pounce :shrug:

I saw your thread after it was closed yesterday but it really frustrated me! I could see entirely what you were getting at but unfortunately you were completely misunderstood and ganged up on. Could have been an interesting discussion had it been taken the right way :hugs:


----------



## Thumper

Argh! I've just had another look at that 'any other mums do it my way' type thread. Yikes! I could only read a few posts before running. Scary stuff for me.


----------



## ellie

I had to run from that one too :argh:


----------



## mandarhino

I never used BC as I found BNB when she was already a toddler. I was looking to talk nappies and seek advice. :) 

When my daughter was little, the site I used most for advice was the breastfeeding page of another very popular forum - the one with a high media profile. I think I just needed reassurance about what I was experiencing was normal, as I sure wasn't getting it in real life. I knew deep down that my instincts were right but just needed to read other mothers were going or had gone through it (that being a constantly feeding / non sleeping baby). 

I agree that many people are just looking for the opportunity to take things the wrong way. Going by their behaviour on forums - not just this one - many people don't seem that confident in the choices they've made. I understand that because motherhood is very much about muddling through, hoping you're doing the right thing. I don't see that ending anytime soon and I'm sure I'll be stressing ever more when she's a teenager. What I hate is the jumping down peoples' throats because they've taken a different path than you and the assumption that your choices are a direct criticism of theirs. 

I like Eala's suggestion for the name of this page. I have never used the phrase natural parenting in real life. I don't ever talk about following a particular parenting style either, other than occasionally on here.


----------



## Mrs Mayhem

buttonnose82 said:


> can I ask your girls opinion on something
> 
> do you think the label 'natural parenting' helps the issues, I just wonder if thats why others get upset, by saying you are natural parenting you are therefore implying that others are unnaturally parenting and thats might be why others get upset? thoughts? could there be a better label?

I've often wondered if I am half natural?!?! 

I FF because I have to, I literally had zero supply of milk, it just never came!! I carry my baby almost everywhere, I co-slept for a long while, I will be ERF.... basically, without listing it, there's some things I do which could be classed as 'natural' and some which wouldn't, but the decisions are based on necessity (ie, I FF because if I didn't, my baby would starve....

So I never really know where to fit in. Having said that I wouldn't jump in and judge a person for the way they parent their child, unless it was dangerous. BUT, I will defend myself and other parents like me when we feel judged, ie, the debate about having an epidural = drugging your baby. 
As some others have said, its often the words used which cause offence rather than the meaning behind those words.

I have to say though, as someone who isn't always 'natural', I often feel judged and made to feel like I am not doing the best for my daughter when that is all I am actually trying to do!!


----------



## purpleblond

buttonnose82 said:


> can I ask your girls opinion on something
> 
> do you think the label 'natural parenting' helps the issues, I just wonder if thats why others get upset, by saying you are natural parenting you are therefore implying that others are unnaturally parenting and thats might be why others get upset? thoughts? could there be a better label?

I haven't read the whole thread but i don't see the point in being called 'xyz parenting', surely we are all parents?


----------



## sjminimac

purpleblond said:


> buttonnose82 said:
> 
> 
> can I ask your girls opinion on something
> 
> do you think the label 'natural parenting' helps the issues, I just wonder if thats why others get upset, by saying you are natural parenting you are therefore implying that others are unnaturally parenting and thats might be why others get upset? thoughts? could there be a better label?
> 
> I haven't read the whole thread but i don't see the point in being called 'xyz parenting', surely we are all parents?Click to expand...

This was precisely my point on yesterday's thread (sorry lightworker but it is relevant to this thread too) what really got my back up yesterday was the labelling which really did come across as judgemental - convenience/parent centred? Insinuating not the best for the child? Read my signature, i'm not offended because i don't class that as my 'style', i'm annoyed because i get judged for what i do ('extended' breastfeeding anyone? He's only 9 months old!) and it upsets me, so naturally i'm going to get upset when i see the same thing happening to other mummies who parent differently. JMHO.


----------



## anna matronic

I had an unnatural birth and I don't cloth bum.

I do still breastfeed, I babywear, I co-sleep, I don't leave my child to CIO or do CC, I am doing BLW. I guess I would be considered AP/NP?

Funny cos I don't feel I fit in here one little bit :shrug:


----------



## aragornlover8

I hope it's okay to give some input from a different perspective? I find this thread to be really interesting, and I frequent Baby Club so I'm aware of a lot of the threads being referenced...

Part of the problem is that there are a lot of women in Baby Club who came into motherhood with a certain set of goals in mind. I can only give my experience, but I get the impression that a lot of other women feel the same. I wanted to breastfeed more than anything. I bought a medela breastfeeding gift set, ordered a pump at the hospital, and had the initial goal of breastfeeding for the first six months. I also had the plan of having a natural birth. All I knew was that I wanted as little medical intervention as necessary and no pain medications. 

I was diagnosed with preclampsia at 36 weeks. I had to give birth to my baby that weekend for both of our safeties. My body wasn't ready. I was on a pitocin drip off and on for two days, had cervodil over night both nights I was taken off the pitocin. Ultimately, even after they manually broke my water, there was little to no progress and I had to have a c-section to prevent infection (also, I was in so much pain - my contractions were back to back at maybe a minute and a half apart and there was no guarantee on how much longer they would be). I was also on a magnesium sulfate drip as I was a seizure risk. After Alexandra was delivered, she was extremely sleepy. This gave her a hard time latching, as she would just fall asleep at the breast. I think it was partially because of this that we never really got on at breastfeeding.

I combi fed for five weeks, but that ended up making me incredibly depressed. I felt like a failure, and I finally found it both our best interests to switch to formula feeding.

I want to have another go at breastfeeding with our next child, and I'm hoping against hope that this next attempt is much more successful. And there is a TON of great breastfeeding support here (I'm looking at you bky ;), if it's okay if I single you out), and I hope to take advantage of that later.

But I have come across a lot of threads with some pretty judgmental posts regarding formula feeding v breastfeeding. Part of what puts me on defense in these threads is that I feel like somehow I've done something wrong to not give my baby the best chance. I wanted so much to breastfeed and it just didn't work out. Whether this wording is intentional or not, it's really hard to understand what a lot of women are going through, especially if you've never had problems breastfeeding, or if you had the support necessary to get over the hurdles you came across. 

With regard to natural parenting, it's tough when you realize that your birth isn't going to be what you expected at all. I seriously applaud all women who were able to successfully give birth without medical intervention. I hope to be a successful VBAC lady this next go 'round. I think birth is an insanely empowering experience, and I hope to experience it fully some day. But it's really hard to hear women describe their natural birthing experiences with and underlying judgmental tone, because I really had no choice in order to make sure Alexandra was delivered in a healthy way that also kept me healthy.

I hope what I'm getting at makes sense at all. This has been a sleepy week. :coffee: And I'm not trying to be judgmental at all. Just trying to give what bit of the "other side of things" that I can.


----------



## aragornlover8

Oh dear, I just realized how long that was. I'm so sorry. :wacko:


----------



## kawaiigirl

I used to be in BC all the time. Then I decided to try cloth so came over here to NP. I just found people to be more accepting of different parenting outlooks. I don't breastfeeding, co-sleep, BLW or carry my baby but I still feel like I fit in here more


----------



## buttonnose82

what is kinda upsetting I guess is that ANYONE feels they need too defend their parenting style, I am pretty certain that regardless of how we bring up our children 99.9% of us are just doing what we feel is best for us, our children & our families


----------



## lozzy21

aragornlover8 said:


> I hope it's okay to give some input from a different perspective? I find this thread to be really interesting, and I frequent Baby Club so I'm aware of a lot of the threads being referenced...
> 
> Part of the problem is that there are a lot of women in Baby Club who came into motherhood with a certain set of goals in mind. I can only give my experience, but I get the impression that a lot of other women feel the same. I wanted to breastfeed more than anything. I bought a medela breastfeeding gift set, ordered a pump at the hospital, and had the initial goal of breastfeeding for the first six months. I also had the plan of having a natural birth. All I knew was that I wanted as little medical intervention as necessary and no pain medications.
> 
> I was diagnosed with preclampsia at 36 weeks. I had to give birth to my baby that weekend for both of our safeties. My body wasn't ready. I was on a pitocin drip off and on for two days, had cervodil over night both nights I was taken off the pitocin. Ultimately, even after they manually broke my water, there was little to no progress and I had to have a c-section to prevent infection (also, I was in so much pain - my contractions were back to back at maybe a minute and a half apart and there was no guarantee on how much longer they would be). I was also on a magnesium sulfate drip as I was a seizure risk. After Alexandra was delivered, she was extremely sleepy. This gave her a hard time latching, as she would just fall asleep at the breast. I think it was partially because of this that we never really got on at breastfeeding.
> 
> I combi fed for five weeks, but that ended up making me incredibly depressed. I felt like a failure, and I finally found it both our best interests to switch to formula feeding.
> 
> I want to have another go at breastfeeding with our next child, and I'm hoping against hope that this next attempt is much more successful. And there is a TON of great breastfeeding support here (I'm looking at you bky ;), if it's okay if I single you out), and I hope to take advantage of that later.
> 
> But I have come across a lot of threads with some pretty judgmental posts regarding formula feeding v breastfeeding. Part of what puts me on defense in these threads is that I feel like somehow I've done something wrong to not give my baby the best chance. I wanted so much to breastfeed and it just didn't work out. Whether this wording is intentional or not, it's really hard to understand what a lot of women are going through, especially if you've never had problems breastfeeding, or if you had the support necessary to get over the hurdles you came across.
> 
> With regard to natural parenting, it's tough when you realize that your birth isn't going to be what you expected at all. I seriously applaud all women who were able to successfully give birth without medical intervention. I hope to be a successful VBAC lady this next go 'round. I think birth is an insanely empowering experience, and I hope to experience it fully some day. But it's really hard to hear women describe their natural birthing experiences with and underlying judgmental tone, because I really had no choice in order to make sure Alexandra was delivered in a healthy way that also kept me healthy.
> 
> I hope what I'm getting at makes sense at all. This has been a sleepy week. :coffee: And I'm not trying to be judgmental at all. Just trying to give what bit of the "other side of things" that I can.

First of all :hugs:, i had problems breast feeding so i can see where you are coming from but its our own guilt that makes us feel that way, if we had chosen to FF from birth then those posts wouldent bother us. Some people do come across as being on their high horse, usualy because they havent had or saw any one else having problems BF but iv been some FF get anoyed through people saying that they BF because its best for baby when there is no deniying that.


----------



## littlestar85

aragornlover8 I understand where you're coming from completely. I think it is very wrong for people to judge others who had no choice but to do things for medical reasons and a lot of the time people find it hard to remember that the health of the baby had to come before the ideals of the mother. Sounds like you went through a really stressful time and coped amazingly with it.

I wanted the perfect 'natural birth' too but when I went into labour in my 35th week I was no longer allowed to use the midwife-led birthing centre I was booked in to or even the birthing pool on the labour ward and ended up with a ventouse delivery, episiotomy, all the things I didn't want. Even though I really believe in the benefits of a totally natural birth and I had no choice in what happened to me it does still upset me and despite being very AP/NP I do feel patronised sometimes by people's attitudes to medical intervention. I hope to do it differently next time around too, but we can only plan to a certain extent without knowing what nature has in store for us and our LOs. Whilst natural birth is exactly that, natural, it's also very natural for some babies to not survive labour/birth... in those instances we have to be grateful that we can have medical interventions to save us and our LOs... in those cases letting nature take its course would most definitely not be what anyone wants to do.

As long as your intentions are always to do the best you can for your baby I think that's all that matters, you can't plan everything or be in control 100% of the time despite your beliefs and best endeavours. x


----------



## aragornlover8

lozzy21 said:


> First of all :hugs:, i had problems breast feeding so i can see where you are coming from but its our own guilt that makes us feel that way, if we had chosen to FF from birth then those posts wouldent bother us. Some people do come across as being on their high horse, usualy because they havent had or saw any one else having problems BF but iv been some FF get anoyed through people saying that they BF because its best for baby when there is no deniying that.

I can see that too. And I really do believe that breast is best; that's the main reason I'm going to try again next time. I'm really genuinely proud of women who breastfeed for any extended period of time. And I know I would feel a lot better about things had I not been so set on breastfeeding from the start. Still, I think it's really important to keep in mind that judgmental attitudes on the breastfeeding side of things do little to help their cause. If all I had come across so far was resistance and negativity, I doubt I would feel so adamant about trying again. If that makes any sense? 

littlestar - I'm really sorry to hear your birth did not go as planned either. I really hope that things go better for both of us in the future. :hugs:


----------



## c.m.c

im scared of most of the other sections- thats why i posted my weaning question in here the NP section


----------



## c.m.c

lozzy21 said:


> aragornlover8 said:
> 
> 
> I hope it's okay to give some input from a different perspective? I find this thread to be really interesting, and I frequent Baby Club so I'm aware of a lot of the threads being referenced...
> 
> Part of the problem is that there are a lot of women in Baby Club who came into motherhood with a certain set of goals in mind. I can only give my experience, but I get the impression that a lot of other women feel the same. I wanted to breastfeed more than anything. I bought a medela breastfeeding gift set, ordered a pump at the hospital, and had the initial goal of breastfeeding for the first six months. I also had the plan of having a natural birth. All I knew was that I wanted as little medical intervention as necessary and no pain medications.
> 
> I was diagnosed with preclampsia at 36 weeks. I had to give birth to my baby that weekend for both of our safeties. My body wasn't ready. I was on a pitocin drip off and on for two days, had cervodil over night both nights I was taken off the pitocin. Ultimately, even after they manually broke my water, there was little to no progress and I had to have a c-section to prevent infection (also, I was in so much pain - my contractions were back to back at maybe a minute and a half apart and there was no guarantee on how much longer they would be). I was also on a magnesium sulfate drip as I was a seizure risk. After Alexandra was delivered, she was extremely sleepy. This gave her a hard time latching, as she would just fall asleep at the breast. I think it was partially because of this that we never really got on at breastfeeding.
> 
> I combi fed for five weeks, but that ended up making me incredibly depressed. I felt like a failure, and I finally found it both our best interests to switch to formula feeding.
> 
> I want to have another go at breastfeeding with our next child, and I'm hoping against hope that this next attempt is much more successful. And there is a TON of great breastfeeding support here (I'm looking at you bky ;), if it's okay if I single you out), and I hope to take advantage of that later.
> 
> But I have come across a lot of threads with some pretty judgmental posts regarding formula feeding v breastfeeding. Part of what puts me on defense in these threads is that I feel like somehow I've done something wrong to not give my baby the best chance. I wanted so much to breastfeed and it just didn't work out. Whether this wording is intentional or not, it's really hard to understand what a lot of women are going through, especially if you've never had problems breastfeeding, or if you had the support necessary to get over the hurdles you came across.
> 
> With regard to natural parenting, it's tough when you realize that your birth isn't going to be what you expected at all. I seriously applaud all women who were able to successfully give birth without medical intervention. I hope to be a successful VBAC lady this next go 'round. I think birth is an insanely empowering experience, and I hope to experience it fully some day. But it's really hard to hear women describe their natural birthing experiences with and underlying judgmental tone, because I really had no choice in order to make sure Alexandra was delivered in a healthy way that also kept me healthy.
> 
> I hope what I'm getting at makes sense at all. This has been a sleepy week. :coffee: And I'm not trying to be judgmental at all. Just trying to give what bit of the "other side of things" that I can.
> 
> First of all :hugs:, i had problems breast feeding so i can see where you are coming from but its our own guilt that makes us feel that way, if we had chosen to FF from birth then those posts wouldent bother us. Some people do come across as being on their high horse, usualy because they havent had or saw any one else having problems BF but iv been some FF get anoyed through people saying that they BF because its best for baby when there is no deniying that.Click to expand...

me three....:hugs: im one of those ones too who is hoping on hope to do it and make it work second time around..... i still get annoyed when i see adverts on tv calling breastmilk- liquid gold... but as said-- those comments are true it is best and as OP said- it drives the likes of me to succeed mext time!!! heres hoping:flower:


----------



## NaturalMomma

Not just you. Never felt like my type of parenting belonged there (but I didn't care :) ). AP/NP constantly gets judged and bashed in those groups, but we're not suppose to say anything bad about mainstream parenting. And according to many threads I've seen AP/NP kids are whiny, brats who have no discipline so will end up in jail and are super clingy to their parents :wacko:


----------



## indy and lara

Och you know, I sometimes think that the fact that there is a separate section/ title/ name for what you are doing is what makes it divisive. When you label things separately then you do naturally separate from people who are not doing it. 

I do understand that people want their 'own' section but I am not sure that there is any easy way to bridge this divide.


----------



## Blob

Tbh I think it's more because it's such a huge group and unless you are pc about your opinions and views you will have people jumping on you :dohh: 

I tend to just reply to the threads but don't say anything personal about my life :shrug:


----------



## fluffpuffin

c.m.c said:


> lozzy21 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> aragornlover8 said:
> 
> 
> I hope it's okay to give some input from a different perspective? I find this thread to be really interesting, and I frequent Baby Club so I'm aware of a lot of the threads being referenced...
> 
> Part of the problem is that there are a lot of women in Baby Club who came into motherhood with a certain set of goals in mind. I can only give my experience, but I get the impression that a lot of other women feel the same. I wanted to breastfeed more than anything. I bought a medela breastfeeding gift set, ordered a pump at the hospital, and had the initial goal of breastfeeding for the first six months. I also had the plan of having a natural birth. All I knew was that I wanted as little medical intervention as necessary and no pain medications.
> 
> I was diagnosed with preclampsia at 36 weeks. I had to give birth to my baby that weekend for both of our safeties. My body wasn't ready. I was on a pitocin drip off and on for two days, had cervodil over night both nights I was taken off the pitocin. Ultimately, even after they manually broke my water, there was little to no progress and I had to have a c-section to prevent infection (also, I was in so much pain - my contractions were back to back at maybe a minute and a half apart and there was no guarantee on how much longer they would be). I was also on a magnesium sulfate drip as I was a seizure risk. After Alexandra was delivered, she was extremely sleepy. This gave her a hard time latching, as she would just fall asleep at the breast. I think it was partially because of this that we never really got on at breastfeeding.
> 
> I combi fed for five weeks, but that ended up making me incredibly depressed. I felt like a failure, and I finally found it both our best interests to switch to formula feeding.
> 
> I want to have another go at breastfeeding with our next child, and I'm hoping against hope that this next attempt is much more successful. And there is a TON of great breastfeeding support here (I'm looking at you bky ;), if it's okay if I single you out), and I hope to take advantage of that later.
> 
> But I have come across a lot of threads with some pretty judgmental posts regarding formula feeding v breastfeeding. Part of what puts me on defense in these threads is that I feel like somehow I've done something wrong to not give my baby the best chance. I wanted so much to breastfeed and it just didn't work out. Whether this wording is intentional or not, it's really hard to understand what a lot of women are going through, especially if you've never had problems breastfeeding, or if you had the support necessary to get over the hurdles you came across.
> 
> With regard to natural parenting, it's tough when you realize that your birth isn't going to be what you expected at all. I seriously applaud all women who were able to successfully give birth without medical intervention. I hope to be a successful VBAC lady this next go 'round. I think birth is an insanely empowering experience, and I hope to experience it fully some day. But it's really hard to hear women describe their natural birthing experiences with and underlying judgmental tone, because I really had no choice in order to make sure Alexandra was delivered in a healthy way that also kept me healthy.
> 
> I hope what I'm getting at makes sense at all. This has been a sleepy week. :coffee: And I'm not trying to be judgmental at all. Just trying to give what bit of the "other side of things" that I can.
> 
> First of all :hugs:, i had problems breast feeding so i can see where you are coming from but its our own guilt that makes us feel that way, if we had chosen to FF from birth then those posts wouldent bother us. Some people do come across as being on their high horse, usualy because they havent had or saw any one else having problems BF but iv been some FF get anoyed through people saying that they BF because its best for baby when there is no deniying that.Click to expand...
> 
> me three....:hugs: im one of those ones too who is hoping on hope to do it and make it work second time around..... i still get annoyed when i see adverts on tv calling breastmilk- liquid gold... but as said-- those comments are true it is best and as OP said- it drives the likes of me to succeed mext time!!! heres hoping:flower:Click to expand...

TBH, no-one should feel guilty or be made to feel guilty. It was only when I bf myself that I realised how hard it really is to persevere. It does NOT come naturally in the beginning despite how natural a process it may appear to be - bleeding nipples, mastitis etc. I admit now I would have given up if hubby hadn't refused to buy formula...I was on the verge. Obviously I'm gad I persisted but I can totally understand why so many women switch to formula.


----------



## lozzy21

fluffpuffin said:


> c.m.c said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> lozzy21 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> aragornlover8 said:
> 
> 
> I hope it's okay to give some input from a different perspective? I find this thread to be really interesting, and I frequent Baby Club so I'm aware of a lot of the threads being referenced...
> 
> Part of the problem is that there are a lot of women in Baby Club who came into motherhood with a certain set of goals in mind. I can only give my experience, but I get the impression that a lot of other women feel the same. I wanted to breastfeed more than anything. I bought a medela breastfeeding gift set, ordered a pump at the hospital, and had the initial goal of breastfeeding for the first six months. I also had the plan of having a natural birth. All I knew was that I wanted as little medical intervention as necessary and no pain medications.
> 
> I was diagnosed with preclampsia at 36 weeks. I had to give birth to my baby that weekend for both of our safeties. My body wasn't ready. I was on a pitocin drip off and on for two days, had cervodil over night both nights I was taken off the pitocin. Ultimately, even after they manually broke my water, there was little to no progress and I had to have a c-section to prevent infection (also, I was in so much pain - my contractions were back to back at maybe a minute and a half apart and there was no guarantee on how much longer they would be). I was also on a magnesium sulfate drip as I was a seizure risk. After Alexandra was delivered, she was extremely sleepy. This gave her a hard time latching, as she would just fall asleep at the breast. I think it was partially because of this that we never really got on at breastfeeding.
> 
> I combi fed for five weeks, but that ended up making me incredibly depressed. I felt like a failure, and I finally found it both our best interests to switch to formula feeding.
> 
> I want to have another go at breastfeeding with our next child, and I'm hoping against hope that this next attempt is much more successful. And there is a TON of great breastfeeding support here (I'm looking at you bky ;), if it's okay if I single you out), and I hope to take advantage of that later.
> 
> But I have come across a lot of threads with some pretty judgmental posts regarding formula feeding v breastfeeding. Part of what puts me on defense in these threads is that I feel like somehow I've done something wrong to not give my baby the best chance. I wanted so much to breastfeed and it just didn't work out. Whether this wording is intentional or not, it's really hard to understand what a lot of women are going through, especially if you've never had problems breastfeeding, or if you had the support necessary to get over the hurdles you came across.
> 
> With regard to natural parenting, it's tough when you realize that your birth isn't going to be what you expected at all. I seriously applaud all women who were able to successfully give birth without medical intervention. I hope to be a successful VBAC lady this next go 'round. I think birth is an insanely empowering experience, and I hope to experience it fully some day. But it's really hard to hear women describe their natural birthing experiences with and underlying judgmental tone, because I really had no choice in order to make sure Alexandra was delivered in a healthy way that also kept me healthy.
> 
> I hope what I'm getting at makes sense at all. This has been a sleepy week. :coffee: And I'm not trying to be judgmental at all. Just trying to give what bit of the "other side of things" that I can.
> 
> First of all :hugs:, i had problems breast feeding so i can see where you are coming from but its our own guilt that makes us feel that way, if we had chosen to FF from birth then those posts wouldent bother us. Some people do come across as being on their high horse, usualy because they havent had or saw any one else having problems BF but iv been some FF get anoyed through people saying that they BF because its best for baby when there is no deniying that.Click to expand...
> 
> me three....:hugs: im one of those ones too who is hoping on hope to do it and make it work second time around..... i still get annoyed when i see adverts on tv calling breastmilk- liquid gold... but as said-- those comments are true it is best and as OP said- it drives the likes of me to succeed mext time!!! heres hoping:flower:Click to expand...
> 
> TBH, no-one should feel guilty or be made to feel guilty. It was only when I bf myself that I realised how hard it really is to persevere. It does NOT come naturally in the beginning despite how natural a process it may appear to be - bleeding nipples, mastitis etc. I admit now I would have given up if hubby hadn't refused to buy formula...I was on the verge. Obviously I'm gad I persisted but I can totally understand why so many women switch to formula.Click to expand...

I dont want to sound bitchy as i know you havet done it on purpose but its comments like yours that upset me the most. Some of us dident choose to switch to forumla, it was that or have them starve. I wish it was as simple as sore nipples, mastitus or something that we could battle through but not all problems can be fixed.


----------



## babyjiva

Hi. if you frequent BC you probably know me as the hated AP member, maybe even the most hated and I'm pretty sure the "post here if you parent like me" thread or whatever it said, was a reaction to a thread I posted asking AP moms if they use the NP forum. I was asking this because I really think there needs to be an AP forum. 

For two reasons.
1. to lessen the debates in BC 
2. so I can post things comfortably and know get like minded input

the fact is, a good debate is healthy. if you didn't have AP moms and CP (conventional parenting) moms in the same place, no one would ever question their parenting. that's not good!! 
however, maybe parenting isn't something good to debate about. let's face it&#8230;women get really upset over there. it seems true that CP moms think AP moms are on a high horse and they judge things that come out of our mouths and often feel offended when offense was not intended. the same could be said about AP moms but the truth is i've never seen an AP mom yell at a CP mom for making her feel like shi*. 
For this reason, I think although debates are nice, they are not usually constructive between AP and CP moms...because it's less about educating and always ends up being attacks on personality and manners etc. Because this forum is supposed to be constructive, I think we need our own spaces and that labels are useful in this case.

After reading all of this, I think this is where I belong!

I agree with a few earlier posts that when we get jumped on, it is partly how we word things. I have never called anyone any mean names or otherwise implied that anyone is stupid, but I've had my share of blunt and insensitive posts and don't blame CP moms for calling me out for it. At least on a few occasions I have strongly disagreed with another mother when they probably didn't want my advice to begin with. 

more often than not, way more often, I have only intended to give my two cents, just like everyone else does, on a topic&#8230; and boy have i gotten it. simply because i disagreed with the original OP or someone else. 

I see I'm not the only one that this happens to and I vote for an AP forum!!!


----------



## fluffpuffin

lozzy21 said:


> fluffpuffin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> c.m.c said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> lozzy21 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> aragornlover8 said:
> 
> 
> I hope it's okay to give some input from a different perspective? I find this thread to be really interesting, and I frequent Baby Club so I'm aware of a lot of the threads being referenced...
> 
> Part of the problem is that there are a lot of women in Baby Club who came into motherhood with a certain set of goals in mind. I can only give my experience, but I get the impression that a lot of other women feel the same. I wanted to breastfeed more than anything. I bought a medela breastfeeding gift set, ordered a pump at the hospital, and had the initial goal of breastfeeding for the first six months. I also had the plan of having a natural birth. All I knew was that I wanted as little medical intervention as necessary and no pain medications.
> 
> I was diagnosed with preclampsia at 36 weeks. I had to give birth to my baby that weekend for both of our safeties. My body wasn't ready. I was on a pitocin drip off and on for two days, had cervodil over night both nights I was taken off the pitocin. Ultimately, even after they manually broke my water, there was little to no progress and I had to have a c-section to prevent infection (also, I was in so much pain - my contractions were back to back at maybe a minute and a half apart and there was no guarantee on how much longer they would be). I was also on a magnesium sulfate drip as I was a seizure risk. After Alexandra was delivered, she was extremely sleepy. This gave her a hard time latching, as she would just fall asleep at the breast. I think it was partially because of this that we never really got on at breastfeeding.
> 
> I combi fed for five weeks, but that ended up making me incredibly depressed. I felt like a failure, and I finally found it both our best interests to switch to formula feeding.
> 
> I want to have another go at breastfeeding with our next child, and I'm hoping against hope that this next attempt is much more successful. And there is a TON of great breastfeeding support here (I'm looking at you bky ;), if it's okay if I single you out), and I hope to take advantage of that later.
> 
> But I have come across a lot of threads with some pretty judgmental posts regarding formula feeding v breastfeeding. Part of what puts me on defense in these threads is that I feel like somehow I've done something wrong to not give my baby the best chance. I wanted so much to breastfeed and it just didn't work out. Whether this wording is intentional or not, it's really hard to understand what a lot of women are going through, especially if you've never had problems breastfeeding, or if you had the support necessary to get over the hurdles you came across.
> 
> With regard to natural parenting, it's tough when you realize that your birth isn't going to be what you expected at all. I seriously applaud all women who were able to successfully give birth without medical intervention. I hope to be a successful VBAC lady this next go 'round. I think birth is an insanely empowering experience, and I hope to experience it fully some day. But it's really hard to hear women describe their natural birthing experiences with and underlying judgmental tone, because I really had no choice in order to make sure Alexandra was delivered in a healthy way that also kept me healthy.
> 
> I hope what I'm getting at makes sense at all. This has been a sleepy week. :coffee: And I'm not trying to be judgmental at all. Just trying to give what bit of the "other side of things" that I can.
> 
> First of all :hugs:, i had problems breast feeding so i can see where you are coming from but its our own guilt that makes us feel that way, if we had chosen to FF from birth then those posts wouldent bother us. Some people do come across as being on their high horse, usualy because they havent had or saw any one else having problems BF but iv been some FF get anoyed through people saying that they BF because its best for baby when there is no deniying that.Click to expand...
> 
> me three....:hugs: im one of those ones too who is hoping on hope to do it and make it work second time around..... i still get annoyed when i see adverts on tv calling breastmilk- liquid gold... but as said-- those comments are true it is best and as OP said- it drives the likes of me to succeed mext time!!! heres hoping:flower:Click to expand...
> 
> TBH, no-one should feel guilty or be made to feel guilty. It was only when I bf myself that I realised how hard it really is to persevere. It does NOT come naturally in the beginning despite how natural a process it may appear to be - bleeding nipples, mastitis etc. I admit now I would have given up if hubby hadn't refused to buy formula...I was on the verge. Obviously I'm gad I persisted but I can totally understand why so many women switch to formula.Click to expand...
> 
> I dont want to sound bitchy as i know you havet done it on purpose but its comments like yours that upset me the most. Some of us dident choose to switch to forumla, it was that or have them starve. I wish it was as simple as sore nipples, mastitus or something that we could battle through but not all problems can be fixed.Click to expand...

I never mentioned 'choose' to switch and I didn't aim this comment at you - sorry if this appeared that way as I quoted you. In fact I wasn't saying anything nasty, I was trying to be nice :dohh: I appreciate your situation is different...


----------



## lozzy21

fluffpuffin said:


> lozzy21 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> fluffpuffin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> c.m.c said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> lozzy21 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> aragornlover8 said:
> 
> 
> I hope it's okay to give some input from a different perspective? I find this thread to be really interesting, and I frequent Baby Club so I'm aware of a lot of the threads being referenced...
> 
> Part of the problem is that there are a lot of women in Baby Club who came into motherhood with a certain set of goals in mind. I can only give my experience, but I get the impression that a lot of other women feel the same. I wanted to breastfeed more than anything. I bought a medela breastfeeding gift set, ordered a pump at the hospital, and had the initial goal of breastfeeding for the first six months. I also had the plan of having a natural birth. All I knew was that I wanted as little medical intervention as necessary and no pain medications.
> 
> I was diagnosed with preclampsia at 36 weeks. I had to give birth to my baby that weekend for both of our safeties. My body wasn't ready. I was on a pitocin drip off and on for two days, had cervodil over night both nights I was taken off the pitocin. Ultimately, even after they manually broke my water, there was little to no progress and I had to have a c-section to prevent infection (also, I was in so much pain - my contractions were back to back at maybe a minute and a half apart and there was no guarantee on how much longer they would be). I was also on a magnesium sulfate drip as I was a seizure risk. After Alexandra was delivered, she was extremely sleepy. This gave her a hard time latching, as she would just fall asleep at the breast. I think it was partially because of this that we never really got on at breastfeeding.
> 
> I combi fed for five weeks, but that ended up making me incredibly depressed. I felt like a failure, and I finally found it both our best interests to switch to formula feeding.
> 
> I want to have another go at breastfeeding with our next child, and I'm hoping against hope that this next attempt is much more successful. And there is a TON of great breastfeeding support here (I'm looking at you bky ;), if it's okay if I single you out), and I hope to take advantage of that later.
> 
> But I have come across a lot of threads with some pretty judgmental posts regarding formula feeding v breastfeeding. Part of what puts me on defense in these threads is that I feel like somehow I've done something wrong to not give my baby the best chance. I wanted so much to breastfeed and it just didn't work out. Whether this wording is intentional or not, it's really hard to understand what a lot of women are going through, especially if you've never had problems breastfeeding, or if you had the support necessary to get over the hurdles you came across.
> 
> With regard to natural parenting, it's tough when you realize that your birth isn't going to be what you expected at all. I seriously applaud all women who were able to successfully give birth without medical intervention. I hope to be a successful VBAC lady this next go 'round. I think birth is an insanely empowering experience, and I hope to experience it fully some day. But it's really hard to hear women describe their natural birthing experiences with and underlying judgmental tone, because I really had no choice in order to make sure Alexandra was delivered in a healthy way that also kept me healthy.
> 
> I hope what I'm getting at makes sense at all. This has been a sleepy week. :coffee: And I'm not trying to be judgmental at all. Just trying to give what bit of the "other side of things" that I can.
> 
> First of all :hugs:, i had problems breast feeding so i can see where you are coming from but its our own guilt that makes us feel that way, if we had chosen to FF from birth then those posts wouldent bother us. Some people do come across as being on their high horse, usualy because they havent had or saw any one else having problems BF but iv been some FF get anoyed through people saying that they BF because its best for baby when there is no deniying that.Click to expand...
> 
> me three....:hugs: im one of those ones too who is hoping on hope to do it and make it work second time around..... i still get annoyed when i see adverts on tv calling breastmilk- liquid gold... but as said-- those comments are true it is best and as OP said- it drives the likes of me to succeed mext time!!! heres hoping:flower:Click to expand...
> 
> TBH, no-one should feel guilty or be made to feel guilty. It was only when I bf myself that I realised how hard it really is to persevere. It does NOT come naturally in the beginning despite how natural a process it may appear to be - bleeding nipples, mastitis etc. I admit now I would have given up if hubby hadn't refused to buy formula...I was on the verge. Obviously I'm gad I persisted but I can totally understand why so many women switch to formula.Click to expand...
> 
> I dont want to sound bitchy as i know you havet done it on purpose but its comments like yours that upset me the most. Some of us dident choose to switch to forumla, it was that or have them starve. I wish it was as simple as sore nipples, mastitus or something that we could battle through but not all problems can be fixed.Click to expand...
> 
> I never mentioned 'choose' to switch and I didn't aim this comment at you - sorry if this appeared that way as I quoted you. In fact I wasn't saying anything nasty, I was trying to be nice :dohh: I appreciate your situation is different...Click to expand...

I know you were trying to be nice but grrr i cant think if what im trying to say with out sounding like im trying to start an argument so il stop.:flower:


----------



## henny

Fluffpuffin- you didn't come across as being horrible. I couldn't bf my first son as he wouldn't latch properly and milk didn't come in yet my second son was bf for 12mths, we had some problems but family were very supportive and the hv was great :)


----------



## Pixelle

Lilly12 said:


> Yea I said I was proud of giving birth naturally without pain relief and was called ignorant and all of a sudden accused of that I supposedly feel like I'm better than others and that I supposedly meant that nobody can be proud of giving birth unless it's natural or something. Really obnoxious.
> Same with Breastfeeding, alot of the ff ladies get easily upset when you say something about bf'ing..

I'd like to defend myself, if I may:

You were being ignorant though! It was stated many, many, many times that not every woman can give birth naturally. Yet you kept saying the "every woman" thing, over and again.
I don't usually resort to name calling, but there was no other word for it. Belligerent, maybe? 
I'm not being mean. I'm not a horrible person. You just alienated and caused quite a bit of offense with your wording and refusal to stop with the "every woman" thing.
Nothing wrong with being proud of yourself. But when you make sweeping generalisations and make others feel inferior, it's not nice.

Back to this thread...yes we all have different styles of parenting. But sometimes it's the way people word things that upsets/offends others. None of us are perfect but sometimes I do think people know what they're doing when they're starting/posting on a thread they know will cause trouble.

:flower:


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## c.m.c

i did choose to stop- thats why i feel bad......I gave up BF as i hadnt a bloody clue what i was at - no joke- i wish i had found BnB a long time ago. I gave up when i was readmitted to hospital and all my family told me 'you have done well, just stop now and rest' ahhhh that drives me mad now when i think back- people encouraging me to stop!!!

fluffpuffin im not one bit offended- although i need hubby next time to do what yours did!!!! thats of course if everything goes well and baby can latch etc!!! goodness cant believe im talking baby no 2 ahhhhhh


----------



## Mrs Mayhem

I don't know if any of you remember Ally? her username was aob1013, she was and is an avid BF supporter, she's actually a peer supporter now for BF. She was slated so much on this site for expressing her opinion, yet the majority of her posts were some of the best and most informative I have ever read, however, because people took it the wrong way, she ended up with a lot of grief and hassle.

It seems to me that some people, no matter what thread it is in can be nasty and basically call you anything they like, but so long as they follow it up with a :flower: then all is well.


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## winegums

But she upset a LOT of people a LOT of the time?


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## Mrs Mayhem

winegums said:


> But she upset a LOT of people a LOT of the time?

This isn't a debate about her, this is about how some people can be misunderstood.


----------



## aliss

I will admit, that in my heart, I do honestly think that some women in there make what I believe to be "bad" choices. I will admit that I hate the concept of "parent-directed" parenting practices. Hearing women 'brag' about those makes me shake my head. Just my honesty. And I'm sure many of them feel the same way about me.

However, I feel that it's important to support other mothers in their efforts, and not to outwardly judge them, unless it conflicts with my ethical beliefs (and that's when I feel a certain practice falls into neglect - that I won't discuss right now). How I feel about "poor" choices is just my opinion and shouldn't stop me from having a civil discussion with others.


----------



## aliss

And as an aside, AP is, IMO, a bond between mother and baby. Yes, AP encourages methods to strengthen this bond and to raise baby as baby was meant to be raised (babywearing, breastfeeding, bedsharing), but at the end of the day, you can be a formula-feeding, stroller-using, crib, jar-using (FYI Sears is TW, not BLW) AP mother. You can be a fulltime working AP mother and a fulltime SAHM non-AP mother. It's a philosophy about the bond. The only real divide between AP and "modern"/"20th century" practices is the CIO issue - which is never used unless the baby is in danger from an angry mother.


----------



## aragornlover8

aliss said:


> And as an aside, AP is, IMO, a bond between mother and baby. Yes, AP encourages methods to strengthen this bond and to raise baby as baby was meant to be raised (babywearing, breastfeeding, bedsharing), but at the end of the day, you can be a formula-feeding, stroller-using, crib, jar-using (FYI Sears is TW, not BLW) AP mother. You can be a fulltime working AP mother and a fulltime SAHM non-AP mother. It's a philosophy about the bond. The only real divide between AP and "modern"/"20th century" practices is the CIO issue - which is never used unless the baby is in danger from an angry mother.

So if I don't let her cry for any extended period of the time (I "sleep train" in that we have a routine, but I always soothe her when she cries), then I follow AP?? I'm kind of just trying to understand where I fall. I don't traditionally baby wear as I don't have a wrap, but I hold her pretty much throughout the day during her fussy times.


----------



## bky

Better not mention banned members or this'll get locked! 
I was actually thinking about a certain someone and some of the things they said in relation to some of the earlier comments. I recall clearly a few times it being said that NP was harder but it was worth is because it was better for the baby and that just kind of put me in knots. First off because it was a bit high and mighty, but it's just not my experience. I certainly do a lot of NP things because for us it is the path of least resistance. Anything else would be fighting with my baby for acting like a baby IMO. Hear that? I'm a lazy mother! :rofl:

But that's not what I came back in there to say.
I know how there can be a divide between BF/FF Natural/medical birth because more often than not those are things that aren't chosen. I don't like it when people say no one can make you feel bad, or own your choice. You don't really know until you've been there and those things no matter how much you rationalize it are not what you wanted. It's very sensitive and painful and the reactions to it are very emotional, not logical. The best thing to do it just say 'I know how hard it can be, it could have been me' and move on.
But a lot of the rest of the alternative parenting stuff has to be chosen. I mean you usually aren't being forced (emotionally, physically or medically) on to ERF/BLW/cloth nappy or conversely FF/TW/disposable nappy etc. ERF might have financial constraints, but those other things don't.
I think it kind of ties back to 'breast is best' advertising. Bear with me here. Like since BF falls in with alternative parenting (gah :nope:) that all those other things are 'best' as well and hey, second best is fine because I couldn't possibly manage those other things. la de dah.:dohh:
The rest of NP/AP is distinctly a choice to me and it seems really odd that people do get upset. I mean, they must feel it isn't right for them or they'd be doing it right?


----------



## aliss

aragornlover8 said:


> aliss said:
> 
> 
> And as an aside, AP is, IMO, a bond between mother and baby. Yes, AP encourages methods to strengthen this bond and to raise baby as baby was meant to be raised (babywearing, breastfeeding, bedsharing), but at the end of the day, you can be a formula-feeding, stroller-using, crib, jar-using (FYI Sears is TW, not BLW) AP mother. You can be a fulltime working AP mother and a fulltime SAHM non-AP mother. It's a philosophy about the bond. The only real divide between AP and "modern"/"20th century" practices is the CIO issue - which is never used unless the baby is in danger from an angry mother.
> 
> So if I don't let her cry for any extended period of the time (I "sleep train" in that we have a routine, but I always soothe her when she cries), then I follow AP?? I'm kind of just trying to understand where I fall. I don't traditionally baby wear as I don't have a wrap, but I hold her pretty much throughout the day during her fussy times.Click to expand...

Dr. Sears has a full chapter in his Baby Sleep book about CIO, but basically ignoring a baby's cries (cries for food, comfort, security), on purpose, fosters resentment, and weakens the bond between mother and baby. It's meant to consider those who put baby to bed and just let them scream their lungs out until they fall asleep. Soothing a baby when it cries is certainly not CIO. CIO is literally that - cry it out (until you fall asleep). A baby whining and falling asleep is really not the same. For example, mine whines at 3am, 4am, 5am - by the time I would get up to go to him, he would be asleep again. It's different than those who will leave a newborn to CIO to 'teach' them. And plenty of people do it.

Much of what Sears says is to counter the popular sleep training promoted by Dr Weissbluth and Ezzo. He never mentions their names but when he talks about "a certain church promoted parenting program" that's what he means ("Babywise" by Ezzo), or "pediatric-promoted sleep training" (Weissbluth)


----------



## Kota

Sears also covers how soothing a crying baby, holding them, rocking them, patting their bum while they lie in a cot, etc, for how ever long it takes for them to settle, is still completely different to putting them in a cot and walking away and out of the room. CIO/CC is walking away with the intention of letting them cry to 'train' them. :( A baby knows the difference when you are there with them to when you are not.


----------



## kmac625

bky said:


> Better not mention banned members or this'll get locked!
> I was actually thinking about a certain someone and some of the things they said in relation to some of the earlier comments. I recall clearly a few times it being said that NP was harder but it was worth is because it was better for the baby and that just kind of put me in knots. First off because it was a bit high and mighty, but it's just not my experience. I certainly do a lot of NP things because for us it is the path of least resistance. Anything else would be fighting with my baby for acting like a baby IMO. Hear that? I'm a lazy mother! :rofl:
> 
> But that's not what I came back in there to say.
> *I know how there can be a divide between BF/FF Natural/medical birth because more often than not those are things that aren't chosen. I don't like it when people say no one can make you feel bad, or own your choice. You don't really know until you've been there and those things no matter how much you rationalize it are not what you wanted. It's very sensitive and painful and the reactions to it are very emotional, not logical. The best thing to do it just say 'I know how hard it can be, it could have been me' and move on.*
> But a lot of the rest of the alternative parenting stuff has to be chosen. I mean you usually aren't being forced (emotionally, physically or medically) on to ERF/BLW/cloth nappy or conversely FF/TW/disposable nappy etc. ERF might have financial constraints, but those other things don't.
> I think it kind of ties back to 'breast is best' advertising. Bear with me here. Like since BF falls in with alternative parenting (gah :nope:) that all those other things are 'best' as well and hey, second best is fine because I couldn't possibly manage those other things. la de dah.:dohh:
> The rest of NP/AP is distinctly a choice to me and it seems really odd that people do get upset. I mean, they must feel it isn't right for them or they'd be doing it right?

I agree with most everything you've said, especially the part I've bolded. Everyone's situation is different, including how well we cope with life (labour and delivery/bf not working) not going as planned. What might be easy to get over for one person might take therapy for another. 

I also don't understand how bf falls into alternative parenting. Maybe it's because in Canada most women bf for at least a short while so it's the norm here. As far as cloth diapers go though, I just wanted to clear up, that not everyone has the option to use them. I don't. I live in an apartment and don't have my own washer and you can't control the cycles on the washer's the building provides in our laundry room so I wouldn't be able to do all the extra rinses, etc. to wash them properly. I looked into using a cloth diapering service, but it's really expensive and even if I could afford it, again because I live in an apartment building, I can't because they drop off/pick up at your front door. I would have loved to use cloth, but I don't feel guilty because I know it's not a feasible option for me. Anyhow, not trying to argue, just wanted to offer another point of view on that issue.

I haven't come into this section too often, though I have started a couple threads here before. I never really felt like I belonged since I don't use cloth diapers and I don't think I do AP, though maybe my understanding of what that means isn't totally correct either. I am still bf 10 months later with no sign of stopping anytime soon, I will be ERF (it's law to rf until 1 here, so technically I'm not ERFing yet), I do wear Clara but use a stroller too and don't wear her for hours a day most days, and I make all of her food. I've had a couple bad experiences in bc from a few of the people who also post often in here, but I'm realizing that not everyone is as judgmental as they are and that I could probably get some good advice (and maybe offer some as well) in this section.:flower:

EDIT: I regularly find some non AP/NP people in baby club quite judgmental and offensive too. Just wanted to clear up that I don't think these things are limited to one type of parent or another, but to people in general. In any group there's always going to be a few that are like that and think they know what is best for everyone or that their opinion is more correct than others'.


----------



## bky

^^ that's true. I actually left off babywearing because some people can't manage it for medical reasons. I suppose there are other situations for each thing that falls under the NP umbrella--but as you pointed out, even though you would have liked to it's not an emotional raw point for you. That's the part I don't get, none of those choices (nappies, weaning, carseats, babywearing etc) SHOULD be a raw point because they are all choices you make based on your lifestyle and what works for you and your baby (and to be fair FF if that was your choice, just often it isn't). So I don't get why people get angry and backlash about it.
I suppose it does come a bit from both sides. I can think of a few examples, but since they are all involving things for the most part chosen I still don't understand the backlash.


----------



## Farie

I dont have an issue with baby club, yeah it can get a bit 'heated' :lol: but its ok and there are loads of lovely girls in there. 
I find NP sections pretty uncomfy at times, all the talk of 'despicables' etc and how awful 'sposies are, how they are full of chemicals and bad for baby. 

Each to their own I say, but imho there is more to natural parenting/AP than pretty fluff and breast feeding.


----------



## kmac625

Farie said:


> I dont have an issue with baby club, yeah it can get a bit 'heated' :lol: but its ok and there are loads of lovely girls in there.
> I find NP sections pretty uncomfy at times, all the talk of 'despicables' etc and how awful 'sposies are, how they are full of chemicals and bad for baby.
> 
> Each to their own I say, but imho there is more to natural parenting/AP than pretty fluff and breast feeding.

Oooh, you reminded me of how once I did take offense to someone in bc talking about cloth vs disposables. Only they didn't call them disposables, but referred to them as chemical diapers. It didn't make me feel guilty, but did tick me off because that could only be meant to upset people and get a reaction.


----------



## fluffpuffin

Just to add though: look at how easily people get upset when others don't even say anything to attack them. My earlier post is a prime example. I didn't say anything to attack anyone. In fact I was trying to be nice and supportive, yet my comment still upset people and could have potentially caused a debate just because I wasn't careful enough with what I said. Not everyone means to upset people, just tgat when things are written down it gets dissected word for word like under a microoscope. I noticed often heated arguments start because of a badly phrased post.


----------



## Farie

That is so true! 
And its so hard 'cos quite often we're busy mums, typing fast while LO sleeps/crawls about eating fluff off the carpet/throws up/smushes food into the sofa and just type as we think - and in typing a jokey tone, inflection and a wry smile just don't come across!!


----------



## zzypeg

TBH..until I actually read this thread..I have never thought to "label" my parenting style! It is exactly that MY style. I do what I think is best for my baby and what she needs! I really couldn't give 2 coconuts what anyone thinks of the way I parent. My baby is healthy, happy, warm fed and very very loved. I would never do anything that endangers her so how we get to the above mentioned states is none of anyone's business IMO! Whilst others do things I may not agree with, I may do things that they don't agree with and as long as their child is healthy and safe it's not my place to judge or interfere! So perhaps we should think of putting this to bed and celebrating the fact that everyone is a fantastic mum and being a parent and making choices for your child is the most "natural" thing in the world. xxxxx


----------



## Janidog

Can I just say that it ANNOYS me when people take swipes at those parents that have had to use CIO/CC, parents don't do it just for the fun of it, its not the easiest choice to make, it is very much the last resort for a heck a lot of parents! 

The attitude towards AP is there, because attachment parents can't seem to think outside there own little box and do criticise those parents that parent differently 

Every parent parents differently - does it really matter what other parents are doing??


----------



## indy and lara

The more I read this thread the more I wonder why people want to label themselves as being in 1 camp or the other? It doesn't really change what you are doing does it or how well your child is doing. It is just another way to group people.

_ I EBF for 14 months
- We have never co-slept and I never once fed Emma when I was still in bed. 
- We use resuable nappies
- I used a pram/ buggy as both Em and I hated slings
- We followed BLW
- We eventually used CC as Emma had never managed to self settle. Our trigger time for returning started at 2 mins and stayed at that duration.

So what is the point in my trying to decide which 'tribe' I belong to as I do bits of both. The bits that work for us as a family. All this grouping just sometimes makes people feel that they don't belong anywhere.


----------



## louandivy

indy and lara said:


> The more I read this thread the more I wonder why people want to label themselves as being in 1 camp or the other? It doesn't really change what you are doing does it or how well your child is doing. It is just another way to group people.
> 
> _ I EBF for 14 months
> - We have never co-slept and I never once fed Emma when I was still in bed.
> - We use resuable nappies
> - I used a pram/ buggy as both Em and I hated slings
> - We followed BLW
> - We eventually used CC as Emma had never managed to self settle. Our trigger time for returning started at 2 mins and stayed at that duration.
> 
> So what is the point in my trying to decide which 'tribe' I belong to as I do bits of both. The bits that work for us as a family. All this grouping just sometimes makes people feel that they don't belong anywhere.

You have summed up perfectly what I was thinking! I follow a lot of AP styles but not because they are AP, because I just happened to breastfeed/co-sleep/babywear and then found out there is a name for it! But I don't consider myself an 'attachment parent' because its not even something I set out to do, it just happened this way because of the way my LO is. I don't understand the need to group mums into different 'styles'. Also I always felt like 'natural parenting' is very popular in babyclub, the poor people who do CIO always get slated!


----------



## JA1988

aliss said:


> I will admit, that in my heart, I do honestly think that some women in there make what I believe to be "bad" choices. *I will admit that I hate the concept of "parent-directed" parenting practices. Hearing women 'brag' about those makes me shake my head.* Just my honesty. And I'm sure many of them feel the same way about me.
> 
> However, I feel that it's important to support other mothers in their efforts, and not to outwardly judge them, unless it conflicts with my ethical beliefs (and that's when I feel a certain practice falls into neglect - that I won't discuss right now). How I feel about "poor" choices is just my opinion and shouldn't stop me from having a civil discussion with others.

I think this is exactly what can cause a lot of debate, you've hit the nail on th head there, as I can appreciate that some people don't have a choice when it comes to say formula feeding for example BUT what makes me upset (and probably many others) is when people make 'parent-centred' choices so that baby fits around their lives as opposed to the other way round, the way I believe it should be (not saying my way is right, just expressing my opinion). I think some things are cut and dry (breastmilk is natural, formula is artificial, most disposables are filled with chemicals whereas the majority of cloth nappies are not etc) these are true statements and people shouldn't be offended by statements of truth. That said, when people do something because they have no alternative rather than just making a convenient parent-centred choice, that is when there is likely to be conflict as it is understandable to feel some guilt/anger/upset/frustration etc about something you wanted to do but couldn't for whatever reason, this is why I think it is important for people to think carefully about how they word things for example 'despicables' is likely to annoy some people but 'disposables' most likely isn't.


----------



## nickyXjayno

fluffpuffin said:


> Just to add though: look at how easily people get upset when others don't even say anything to attack them. My earlier post is a prime example. I didn't say anything to attack anyone. In fact I was trying to be nice and supportive, yet my comment still upset people and could have potentially caused a debate just because I wasn't careful enough with what I said. Not everyone means to upset people, just tgat when things are written down it gets dissected word for word like under a microoscope. I noticed often heated arguments start because of a badly phrased post.


Maybe I'm just dumb but I never saw anything in your previous post to get upset about.
You explained how you found breast feeding hard and didn't feel natural despite it being so, you also said you were at the point of leaving it and going FF if it weren't of the support of your hubby.
You basically said you totally understood how hard BF is and understand why so many can not do it either through choice or health issues.

I had to check you hadn't edited your post when i saw someone getting upset by it as saw nothing offensive in it.
So please don't feel bad as don't think you had done anything wrong :hugs:.


----------



## lozzy21

fluffpuffin said:


> Just to add though: look at how easily people get upset when others don't even say anything to attack them. My earlier post is a prime example. I didn't say anything to attack anyone. In fact I was trying to be nice and supportive, yet my comment still upset people and could have potentially caused a debate just because I wasn't careful enough with what I said. Not everyone means to upset people, just tgat when things are written down it gets dissected word for word like under a microoscope. I noticed often heated arguments start because of a badly phrased post.

Using your comment to prove an earlier point, your comment dident upset me, it was my own guilt that upset me but your post just reminded me i was quilty lol

You cant feel bad about something you make an informed choice about.


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## DanielleM

I have been following this thread since yesterday and felt a little bit out of place to comment, probably just the same that you ladies feel uncomfortable in Baby Club so I can totally understand how all of you feel now :hugs:

I am not a 'natural' parent in the whole sense of things, but I do babywear and occasionaly co-sleep, and I can honestly say if it was not for the NP/AP parents posting in BC then I probably would not really be doing much of this. And thanks to Aliss I am going to be switching from a rubbish BabyBjorn to the Ergo.

I do however class myself as a natural parent, as it is natural to me. My family is very large and ever expanding, most FF and use disposible nappies, so therefore this is normal to me (even though I did breatfeed for a short time). I do not class myself as mainstream, and I do not in any way class AP/NP as a minority, I just think people parent in their own way, which is natural to them.

I see parenting as a road/journey we are all on, we started off in the same place, and we all intend on getting to the end finishing line, in getting our children to be healthy and happy young adults. Along the way we will all take different routes and shortcuts, there will be rocky roads along the way which may cause us to take detours. But essentially we are all heading the same way! No parent is going to take exactly the same route, so I respect that.

I hope everybody can feel included all over the forum and not just in certain sub-groups. xx


----------



## Hayley90

Im like some of the others... i do a complete mish mash of everything!

FF/ERF/pram and BWing/BLW/cloth nappies/co sleeping/amber necklace and medication.... i am completely 50/50 on everything! 

This place is good for getting knowledge about the lesser known, or less widely used 'options' such as cloth or amber or Baby wearing, but baby club has its benefits too - when Harrison went through an unexpected bad sleeping phase i had so many suggestions as to how to help him sleep again - i could of CC or CIO, because i had loads of tips, i also had tips about co sleeping, teething, feeds and wind - so i brought him back in with me, by picking the information that i felt most comfortable with. 

Why cant people just over look what they dont like, rather than pick holes in it... i didnt shout the girls down who suggested CC or CIO to me, i just said id prefer not to, and would try other things first... :shrug: Whereas ive seen some just jump straight in with 'no its so cruel its neglectful and awful youre a terrible parent....'

I dont agree with things, but fgs everyone has a concience and there is no need to crush someone for choosing the most appropriate bit of advice that THEY had. 

does that make sense?


----------



## Kota

I think one of the things with cc/cio is that it sometime seems like its almost _expected_ that its just one of those things you have to do as a parent. as common as changing a bum and wiping a snotty nose. You see posts about Dr/HV's telling new stressed out sleep deprived mums to just 'let them cry them selves to sleep' or the older generation passing it on as some miracle cure for all sleeping problems, that a lot of the times, mums don't realise theres other ways of doing things. They just feel like they have to do it, because everyone else is, and even though they HATE hearing their baby cry, don't know they have another option. 

I am completely 100% against it, and don't believe there is EVER a time where it is the ONLY thing left to do. So I will continue to offer more gentle methods, even if thats just recommending the NCSS book or some links on why babies cry and some of the potential negative effects of CIO/CC. If you've chosen to do it and are happy with that choice you've made then fine, but for the mother that is still trying to figure it out, why can't someone like myself offer up the other side of the coin to all the people that sit there saying how fantastic and wonderful it was for them??


----------



## Blob

I agree I don't think I have a label, I do what comes natural for me. I will look in each place for what I need? I spend more time in here I think but then again I went into the BLW section and I left rather fast. I hated it, even though I do BLW it had a horrible feeling so I guess I understand how people from the BC view in here?


----------



## Janidog

Im a parent-directed 'parent' when i choose to FF because i didnt want to even attempt to BF and I couldn't careless what people think about that, but im also baby-led 90% of the time, i can't be baby-led 100% because I have a job and therefore if he doesn't want to have clothes put on he doesn't get a choice because i need to get him ready for nursery.

I also can not understand why so many AP parents want to be labelled when isn't the whole point about AP is you teach your child that they have 'free thoughts' therefore no one is labelled 

Does that make any sense???


----------



## aliss

That's not really what AP is. AP is about bonding in the most 'natural' way (ie. from an evolutionary standpoint) through breastfeeding, babywearing, bedsharing, no CIO. In AP, you do those things not because they are easier or harder but because in AP, it is your job as a mother to use those methods as it is believed it is better for you and the baby, emotionally. No, I don't think there are many AP parents who follow each method to a T but you strive for it. The one exception would be using CIO from birth like some do. That is 100% against everything AP is about. You do that in nature and your baby is prey, plain and simple. It is unnatural to leave a newborn to cry alone and that's why AP is against it. Yes, it is against CIO for older babies/toddlers too - but the majority of Sears anti-CIO stuff is to counter the methhods of Weissbluth and Ezzo which has permeated mainstream parenting in western society (because in many other societies, CIO is absolutely unacceptable)

Here is more info
https://www.askdrsears.com/topics/attachment-parenting/what-ap-7-baby-bs


----------



## c.m.c

nickyXjayno said:


> fluffpuffin said:
> 
> 
> Just to add though: look at how easily people get upset when others don't even say anything to attack them. My earlier post is a prime example. I didn't say anything to attack anyone. In fact I was trying to be nice and supportive, yet my comment still upset people and could have potentially caused a debate just because I wasn't careful enough with what I said. Not everyone means to upset people, just tgat when things are written down it gets dissected word for word like under a microoscope. I noticed often heated arguments start because of a badly phrased post.
> 
> 
> Maybe I'm just dumb but I never saw anything in your previous post to get upset about.
> You explained how you found breast feeding hard and didn't feel natural despite it being so, you also said you were at the point of leaving it and going FF if it weren't of the support of your hubby.
> You basically said you totally understood how hard BF is and understand why so many can not do it either through choice or health issues.
> 
> I had to check you hadn't edited your post when i saw someone getting upset by it as saw nothing offensive in it.
> So please don't feel bad as don't think you had done anything wrong :hugs:.Click to expand...


i agree- and to add it was lovely to see that a lot of women find it hard at BF and are tempted to give up- made me feel not so guilty:thumbup::thumbup:


----------



## lozzy21

aliss said:


> That's not really what AP is. AP is about bonding in the most 'natural' way (ie. from an evolutionary standpoint) through breastfeeding, babywearing, bedsharing, no CIO. In AP, you do those things not because they are easier or harder but because in AP, it is your job as a mother to use those methods as it is believed it is better for you and the baby, emotionally. No, I don't think there are many AP parents who follow each method to a T but you strive for it. The one exception would be using CIO from birth like some do. That is 100% against everything AP is about. You do that in nature and your baby is prey, plain and simple. It is unnatural to leave a newborn to cry alone and that's why AP is against it. Yes, it is against CIO for older babies/toddlers too - but the majority of Sears anti-CIO stuff is to counter the methhods of Weissbluth and Ezzo which has permeated mainstream parenting in western society (because in many other societies, CIO is absolutely unacceptable)
> 
> Here is more info
> https://www.askdrsears.com/topics/attachment-parenting/what-ap-7-baby-bs

On the subject i can remember feeding an article some one posted written by a british woman of african decent entitled something like african babys dont cry. im going to see if i can find it.


https://www.naturalchild.org/guest/claire_niala.html


----------



## ellie

See I dont really see things like cloth nappying to be part of AP, to me AP is abput the philosophy you have in parenting, that you see the child as a dependent being that relies on you for nurturing, and that nurture and the bond you create together will set them up for emotional and psychological wellbeing throughout their life. So you could use any kind of nappies for that (or indeed use none :) and those things are strengthened by things like co sleeping, breastfeeding, babywearing etc, but theyre not exclusively the only things that make your philosophy AP, if that makes sense.
I think as they get older AP philosophy tends more towards 'gentle discipline' and against things that might affect the attachment relationship like time outs, shouting, spanking etc.
At any age though I think Dr Sears and most APs are very clear that CIO is unacceptable. That is, the practice of leaving them to cry - and in fact CC is included in that - damages that relationship, and has an effect on the babies' developing brain. This is a fact, I have been studying attachment, neuropsychology and the long term effects of attachment. Attachment psychologists will stand very strongly by AP because of the vast amount of research and evidence in these areas. Of course, the brain effects studied have mainly been in cases of extreme neglect, so its hard to say for sure about parents who are generally careful and loving but just do CC for sleep purposes. Attachment theory does very clearly state though, backed up with huge amounts of evidence, that CIO does not "teach" babies to sleep, it just teaches them that no one will come. In generally thoughtful and loving parents, I guess it will teach them that no one will come in that situation, which would explain why babies will still ask for comfort in other situations.

Someone said they dont know why any of us care what 'methods' other parents use, well actually mostly because we know that CIO/CC is damaging, pure and simple, and many people simply do not realise this because they think its the 'only thing to do' or 'last resort'. In some cases, well maybe, where there is risk of something more serious for the baby or mother, but for most, there is always another way. I've never been brave enough to say any of this before because of the vast numbers of people who will say "its not true, my child is very happy and with no problems and in fact I had to do it because of x y z so stop judging me" ... it's not judgement (ok I know though that 'some' people might use it to beat up some mums but not here) it's *fact*. Therefore, I dont see the problem with telling parents the facts ... if they choose to use crying with their babies, no matter what their reasons, they should be armed with all the facts about the effects of doing it vs the effects of not doing it. If they are not, that's simply unfair to all concerned. 
If they know, and they still choose to use it for their own reasons, then I believe they should be able to stand by their choices and not get over defensive when they read the facts they knew already, without feeling they have to justify what they did or blame someone else's words for their own concerns - they've weighed up the pros and cons of each side, like we all do.

Whereas behavioural psychologists will stand by the behavioural methods (like crying methods). I was thinking that those who use strict routines, crying methods, etc, might be 'behavioural' in focus which might be a less critical way of seeing it :shrug:
I'll probably get jumped on for this now, but I've started to feel much more strongly about it now as my studies go on. I really think gp's/hv's etc should know more about it before telling all and sundry to 'just let them cry' :facepalm:


----------



## lozzy21

Ellie do you know if there has been any research using sleep methods like PUPD? Where the chances are baby will cry but they are still being comforted?


----------



## littlestar85

Lozzy21 I posted that article in NP a few months ago - I love it!

This thread wasn't intending to label AP mums or any particular style, it was mostly just to open up a discussion about the negative vibe that has been present towards AP/NP recently in Baby Club. I love that it's turned into a really constructive discussion and not spiralled into a load of nonsense like so many constructive threads do in BC. I've really enjoyed hearing what everyone thinks.

A pp said that AP mums can't think outside our 'little box' but I don't think that's true.... We've thought a lot and researched all sorts of parenting issues and decided that AP is the right choice for our LOs, so we're actually in a very 'big box' reached through lots of information and research. We don't go into BC saying "hey all mainstream mums, you suck, what we do is better so there"... We generally just give an opnion or advice, when someone asks for opinions and advice, just the same way everyone else does. But a lot of ppl feel judged by us. 

If someone, for example, starts a "please help, my baby won't sleep and I'm going crazy threadl" and some mums suggest CC or CIO because they feel they're helping, an AP mum has just as much right (and feels she has a duty) to suggest other ways as research has shown the dangers of CC and CIO. We are being no more 'know it all' than someone advocating CC/CIO cos it worked for them, but we are giving that mother information which may help her, just like the mum who suggests CC/CIO feels she is doing too. 

No one has proven that CC/CIO doesn't have a negative effect, they can prove it may work, but not that it has fixed the root cause of the crying. Whereas many scientists offer factual evidence that proves it does have a negative effect and that the root cause of the cryiing will manifest itself in other ways.. When AP mums say that, people feel judged, because of course it sounds like we're saying "it may work, but it doesn't fix the root problem and may have a negative impact on your LO therefore it's not a good choice"... And there you have someone inadvertantly being made to feel like a bad mother and being offended and upset. But will that ever change? I doubt it.... No matter how carefully you word things your 100% belief in something, proven or not, will always upset someone.


----------



## littlestar85

Ellie that's a brilliant overview.

That's exactly what people should be free to say without being jumped on. Sharing facts is a vital part of why we're all on BnB in the first place.

X


----------



## henny

Not sure where I belong now :nope: I used to bf but lo stop bfing at 12mths and 3days, use to co-sleep but he stopped that at the same time as the bfing.
Still baby wear at times with an ergo.
I get confused by AP because I cannot pick lo if I'm trying to cook and he is crying but I try and distract him but sometimes he just cries a lot but if I didn't put a meal on the table, his mood would be worse, not sure how to help the situation. Does that make sense?
Don't enjoy it over at the baby club but used to like it in NP but as we only use cloth nappies during the day and only baby wear at times, not sure where to go.


----------



## fluffpuffin

ellie said:


> See I dont really see things like cloth nappying to be part of AP, to me AP is abput the philosophy you have in parenting, that you see the child as a dependent being that relies on you for nurturing, and that nurture and the bond you create together will set them up for emotional and psychological wellbeing throughout their life. So you could use any kind of nappies for that (or indeed use none :) and those things are strengthened by things like co sleeping, breastfeeding, babywearing etc, but theyre not exclusively the only things that make your philosophy AP, if that makes sense.
> I think as they get older AP philosophy tends more towards 'gentle discipline' and against things that might affect the attachment relationship like time outs, shouting, spanking etc.
> At any age though I think Dr Sears and most APs are very clear that CIO is unacceptable. That is, the practice of leaving them to cry - and in fact CC is included in that - damages that relationship, and has an effect on the babies' developing brain. This is a fact, I have been studying attachment, neuropsychology and the long term effects of attachment. Attachment psychologists will stand very strongly by AP because of the vast amount of research and evidence in these areas. Of course, the brain effects studied have mainly been in cases of extreme neglect, so its hard to say for sure about parents who are generally careful and loving but just do CC for sleep purposes. Attachment theory does very clearly state though, backed up with huge amounts of evidence, that CIO does not "teach" babies to sleep, it just teaches them that no one will come. In generally thoughtful and loving parents, I guess it will teach them that no one will come in that situation, which would explain why babies will still ask for comfort in other situations.
> 
> Someone said they dont know why any of us care what 'methods' other parents use, well actually mostly because we know that CIO/CC is damaging, pure and simple, and many people simply do not realise this because they think its the 'only thing to do' or 'last resort'. In some cases, well maybe, where there is risk of something more serious for the baby or mother, but for most, there is always another way. I've never been brave enough to say any of this before because of the vast numbers of people who will say "its not true, my child is very happy and with no problems and in fact I had to do it because of x y z so stop judging me" ... it's not judgement (ok I know though that 'some' people might use it to beat up some mums but not here) it's *fact*. Therefore, I dont see the problem with telling parents the facts ... if they choose to use crying with their babies, no matter what their reasons, they should be armed with all the facts about the effects of doing it vs the effects of not doing it. If they are not, that's simply unfair to all concerned.
> If they know, and they still choose to use it for their own reasons, then I believe they should be able to stand by their choices and not get over defensive when they read the facts they knew already, without feeling they have to justify what they did or blame someone else's words for their own concerns - they've weighed up the pros and cons of each side, like we all do.
> 
> Whereas behavioural psychologists will stand by the behavioural methods (like crying methods). I was thinking that those who use strict routines, crying methods, etc, might be 'behavioural' in focus which might be a less critical way of seeing it :shrug:
> I'll probably get jumped on for this now, but I've started to feel much more strongly about it now as my studies go on. I really think gp's/hv's etc should know more about it before telling all and sundry to 'just let them cry' :facepalm:

I would be interested in reading the evidence based research on cc and cio. Could you post a link please?


----------



## CouldThisBeIt

Ellie, what a wonderful post. Thank you for sharing. 

Henny-every mum has times when they can't attend instantly to their kid-and distraction works! You're not ignoring-you are trying to help them to feel better without costing yourself the dinner. You BF, you co-slept, you sound to me to be a pretty AP mum.


----------



## lozzy21

Henny- your not ignoring LO because you think its good for them, your not picking LO up because your responding to their needs. We arent superwomen, we only have two hands. I sometimes need to leave Niamh cry while i make her bottle or sort her food but shes crying because shes hungry so if i go pick her up she will only end up crying for longer.

I dont BF because we couldent, technicly we co-sleep as her cots right by my bed but we dont bed share because i wouldent sleep, she comes in for cuddles, we use cloth, amber and babywear but i also use a pram, ff and spoon feed.

Even if you only do one of the thing you still belong.


----------



## ellie

i have tons of references and probably some hard copy papers but not sure if i have internet links - will have a rifle through and see what i can find.
Not sure if there is any specific evidence on things like PUPD tbh - you could have a look on google scholar? Afaik the research tends to be in casese of severe neglect usually because it wouldnt be ethical to do research on crying in babies so it would be on cases that 'present themselves' rather than ones a researcher would create, if that makes sense? I think though it is the experience of being alone / not held that makes the difference. Something to do with baby's needs being met (even if the parent cant stop them crying) by the parent being there. I think ... But yeah, its not physically possible to be doing that with our lifestyles 24/7 with absolutely never any deviation, I think its prolonged crying that has the effect (the cortisol effect mainly which affects the neurotransmitters which are developing throughout the first year or two of life).
I#d also say that my baby cried for months and still cries even when we hold him sometimes, so it does sometimes worry me a bit as well about his poor brain - so maybe I overcompensate in other aspects of AP to try and make up for it :)
I'll have a look through my stuff ......

I dont label myself as a certain type though really .... I quite like AP (hence my blinkie lol) but I dont think you 'have' to do certain things religiously otherwise you can't come into the AP club :) its the overall philosophy that matters.


----------



## Janidog

ellie said:


> See I dont really see things like cloth nappying to be part of AP, to me AP is abput the philosophy you have in parenting, that you see the child as a dependent being that relies on you for nurturing, and that nurture and the bond you create together will set them up for emotional and psychological wellbeing throughout their life. So you could use any kind of nappies for that (or indeed use none :) and those things are strengthened by things like co sleeping, breastfeeding, babywearing etc, but theyre not exclusively the only things that make your philosophy AP, if that makes sense.
> I think as they get older AP philosophy tends more towards 'gentle discipline' and against things that might affect the attachment relationship like time outs, shouting, spanking etc.
> At any age though I think Dr Sears and most APs are very clear that CIO is unacceptable. That is, the practice of leaving them to cry - and in fact CC is included in that - damages that relationship, and has an effect on the babies' developing brain. This is a fact, I have been studying attachment, neuropsychology and the long term effects of attachment. Attachment psychologists will stand very strongly by AP because of the vast amount of research and evidence in these areas. Of course, the brain effects studied have mainly been in cases of extreme neglect, so its hard to say for sure about parents who are generally careful and loving but just do CC for sleep purposes. Attachment theory does very clearly state though, backed up with huge amounts of evidence, that CIO does not "teach" babies to sleep, it just teaches them that no one will come. In generally thoughtful and loving parents, I guess it will teach them that no one will come in that situation, which would explain why babies will still ask for comfort in other situations.
> 
> Someone said they dont know why any of us care what 'methods' other parents use, well actually mostly because we know that CIO/CC is damaging, pure and simple, and many people simply do not realise this because they think its the 'only thing to do' or 'last resort'. In some cases, well maybe, where there is risk of something more serious for the baby or mother, but for most, there is always another way. I've never been brave enough to say any of this before because of the vast numbers of people who will say "its not true, my child is very happy and with no problems and in fact I had to do it because of x y z so stop judging me" ... it's not judgement (ok I know though that 'some' people might use it to beat up some mums but not here) it's *fact*. Therefore, I dont see the problem with telling parents the facts ... if they choose to use crying with their babies, no matter what their reasons, they should be armed with all the facts about the effects of doing it vs the effects of not doing it. If they are not, that's simply unfair to all concerned.
> If they know, and they still choose to use it for their own reasons, then I believe they should be able to stand by their choices and not get over defensive when they read the facts they knew already, without feeling they have to justify what they did or blame someone else's words for their own concerns - they've weighed up the pros and cons of each side, like we all do.
> 
> Whereas behavioural psychologists will stand by the behavioural methods (like crying methods). I was thinking that those who use strict routines, crying methods, etc, might be 'behavioural' in focus which might be a less critical way of seeing it :shrug:
> I'll probably get jumped on for this now, but I've started to feel much more strongly about it now as my studies go on. I really think gp's/hv's etc should know more about it before telling all and sundry to 'just let them cry' :facepalm:

FACT FACT FACT FACT - the problem with 'facts' is that one persons 'facts' is to another person merely an opinion


----------



## lozzy21

Facts and opinions are two completly different things. Yes you can base your opinion on a fact but it doesnt change the fact existing in the first place.


----------



## Janidog

lozzy21 said:


> Facts and opinions are two completly different things. Yes you can base your opinion on a fact but it doesnt change the fact existing in the first place.

But you can't say its a 'fact' about CIO damaging babies, when the only research has been on those children that has been abused and not on the babies that have been brought up by loving nurturing parents that 'OMG' have used CIO/CC - it might be the opinion of certain developmental psychologist, but certainly not all


----------



## lozzy21

Janidog said:


> lozzy21 said:
> 
> 
> Facts and opinions are two completly different things. Yes you can base your opinion on a fact but it doesnt change the fact existing in the first place.
> 
> But you can't say its a 'fact' about CIO damaging babies, when the only research has been on those children that has been abused and not on the babies that have been brought up by loving nurturing parents that 'OMG' have used CIO/CC - it might be the opinion of certain developmental psychologist, but certainly not allClick to expand...

But its not just CIO that has problems, its a fact that BF has more benifits for mum and baby than formula and that rear facing is safer than foward facing but people still get jumped on for saying so despite the facts being there to see.


----------



## Janidog

lozzy21 said:


> Janidog said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> lozzy21 said:
> 
> 
> Facts and opinions are two completly different things. Yes you can base your opinion on a fact but it doesnt change the fact existing in the first place.
> 
> But you can't say its a 'fact' about CIO damaging babies, when the only research has been on those children that has been abused and not on the babies that have been brought up by loving nurturing parents that 'OMG' have used CIO/CC - it might be the opinion of certain developmental psychologist, but certainly not allClick to expand...
> 
> But its not just CIO that has problems, its a fact that BF has more benifits for mum and baby than formula and that rear facing is safer than foward facing but people still get jumped on for saying so despite the facts being there to see.Click to expand...

But just because other subjects have had lots of research, but CIO has not so its still just someone else's opinions 

Im sorry but so many of you on here are very narrow minded and can not think outside your own mindset. Not everyone on BnB has the same time or lifestyle as you all, so therefore lets just tell them how wonderful a parent you all are and lets tell the rest of them here how there lifestyle is damaging their babies 

So you wonder why other parents have attitude towards AP

I didn't BF, I went back to work with my baby when he was 2 weeks old, he went to nursery from 12 weeks old 3 afternoons a week, i didn't co-sleep and LO was in his own room from 10 weeks and do you know what he is a very happy baby boy with no developmental issues, so yes I do get annoyed when AParents tell me im damaging my baby and causing him harm


----------



## RaspberryK

lozzy21 said:


> aliss said:
> 
> 
> That's not really what AP is. AP is about bonding in the most 'natural' way (ie. from an evolutionary standpoint) through breastfeeding, babywearing, bedsharing, no CIO. In AP, you do those things not because they are easier or harder but because in AP, it is your job as a mother to use those methods as it is believed it is better for you and the baby, emotionally. No, I don't think there are many AP parents who follow each method to a T but you strive for it. The one exception would be using CIO from birth like some do. That is 100% against everything AP is about. You do that in nature and your baby is prey, plain and simple. It is unnatural to leave a newborn to cry alone and that's why AP is against it. Yes, it is against CIO for older babies/toddlers too - but the majority of Sears anti-CIO stuff is to counter the methhods of Weissbluth and Ezzo which has permeated mainstream parenting in western society (because in many other societies, CIO is absolutely unacceptable)
> 
> Here is more info
> https://www.askdrsears.com/topics/attachment-parenting/what-ap-7-baby-bs
> 
> On the subject i can remember feeding an article some one posted written by a british woman of african decent entitled something like african babys dont cry. im going to see if i can find it.
> 
> 
> https://www.naturalchild.org/guest/claire_niala.htmlClick to expand...

I love this link Lozzy - thanks!

x


----------



## littlestar85

Janidog said:


> lozzy21 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Janidog said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> lozzy21 said:
> 
> 
> Facts and opinions are two completly different things. Yes you can base your opinion on a fact but it doesnt change the fact existing in the first place.
> 
> But you can't say its a 'fact' about CIO damaging babies, when the only research has been on those children that has been abused and not on the babies that have been brought up by loving nurturing parents that 'OMG' have used CIO/CC - it might be the opinion of certain developmental psychologist, but certainly not allClick to expand...
> 
> But its not just CIO that has problems, its a fact that BF has more benifits for mum and baby than formula and that rear facing is safer than foward facing but people still get jumped on for saying so despite the facts being there to see.Click to expand...
> 
> But just because other subjects have had lots of research, but CIO has not so its still just someone else's opinions
> 
> Im sorry but so many of you on here are very narrow minded and can not think outside your own mindset. Not everyone on BnB has the same time or lifestyle as you all, so therefore lets just tell them how wonderful a parent you all are and lets tell the rest of them here how there lifestyle is damaging their babies
> 
> So you wonder why other parents have attitude towards AP
> 
> I didn't BF, I went back to work with my baby when he was 2 weeks old, he went to nursery from 12 weeks old 3 afternoons a week, i didn't co-sleep and LO was in his own room from 10 weeks and do you know what he is a very happy baby boy with no developmental issues, so yes I do get annoyed when AParents tell me im damaging my baby and causing him harmClick to expand...

It is a fact that the more a baby cries the more cortisol (the stress hormone) is released in its brain. Cortisol is linked to behavioural problems and negative effects on the bond with the mother.

Can I ask what "time and lifestyle" we have that non-AP mothers don't have? I wasn't aware that we all have a known amount of time on our hands or a particular lifestyle in common... Yes, we make the time to research, yes we believe we have chosen a lifestyle where our babies needs come first. Is that what you're getting at??? 

All the AP parents I know do think outside their 'mindset' - they look at all angles and make an informed decision. 

As we have all stated numerous times on this thread, we DO know why people have an attitude towards AP, we're not wondering why. The point is, its unnecessary and unfair. Everyone else can give opinions (and be very judgmental sometimes) but if an AP mother gives an opinion (or even worse, judges) then she is jumped on in a way that non-AP members aren't. 

If people are 100% confident and happy with the choices they've made for their LO then there's no reason for them to feel upset by or judged by AP mothers' comments and opinions. Just take it on the chin the same way we do when we are criticised.


----------



## Lightworker

Littlestar- I do agree that being AP parent does not restrict you to a particular lifestyle as such. I worked fulltime from 6 weeks postpartum with DD1 and still did the "AP-related parenting". I am now a SAHM, with LO and still do it. I also agree that in BC the dynamics are skewed such that non-AP parents can say anything (someone once said she thought extended BF was disgusting, and nobody called her on it except me) but AP cant. It's not right to judge but sometimes opinions are mistaken as judgement.


----------



## Lightworker

Ellie - I thought your long post about AP and the psychological studies was good.


----------



## Rachel_C

I really can't understand why people say "Just look after your own child, why does it matter what another mother does with her child?". Of course it matters! Before I say this, I will clarify that I am NOT saying that people who do things I disagree with are abusive but... I care if a mother locks her child in the bathroom for a day because she can't be bothered looking after him. I care if a mother beats her child with a belt because he's 'naughty'. I care if a mother only feeds her child on chocolate. Just like I care if a mother does something I consider to be dangerous or cruel or selfish even if other people disagree with how I feel about those things. IMO it's people who DON'T care about other mothers and their children that are awful people. I can't imagine going through life not caring. How horrible would it be if nobody cared? If I get labelled as 'on my high horse' or 'holier than thou' because I CARE, well bring on that label! I can think of far worse things for me to be, and one of those is somebody who doesn't care about other children, other people.

As for facts just being opinions, no, facts are facts. Only people who dislike the facts try to make them out to be opinions. Or teenagers, when they're disagreeing with their mothers.


----------



## aliss

Janidog, did you read the links about what AP actually is? Because your comments ("time and lifestyle", etc.) seem to suggest that you don't. AP is not about sitting at home all day, not working, with a baby attached to your boob in your bed, it's a philosophy about strengthening the bond between baby and mother, striving to use the most 'natural' methods for that bond (breastfeeding,babywearing,etc).

Some people would be surprised to know that AP includes vaccination, disposable diapers (there's no differentiation really by using cloth), and traditional weaning. 

You can be a full-time working formula-feeding stroller-using AP mother. Sears addresses this directly in his books, there are chapters worth of explanations about it.

Another exception with AP, in addition to CIO to make it clear, is the use of physical discipline. Aside from CIO (as sleep training and NOT as a means to break away from an angry situation) and physical discipline are methods that directly weaken the bond according to AP and not used.


----------



## fluffpuffin

littlestar85 said:


> Janidog said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> lozzy21 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Janidog said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> lozzy21 said:
> 
> 
> Facts and opinions are two completly different things. Yes you can base your opinion on a fact but it doesnt change the fact existing in the first place.
> 
> But you can't say its a 'fact' about CIO damaging babies, when the only research has been on those children that has been abused and not on the babies that have been brought up by loving nurturing parents that 'OMG' have used CIO/CC - it might be the opinion of certain developmental psychologist, but certainly not allClick to expand...
> 
> But its not just CIO that has problems, its a fact that BF has more benifits for mum and baby than formula and that rear facing is safer than foward facing but people still get jumped on for saying so despite the facts being there to see.Click to expand...
> 
> But just because other subjects have had lots of research, but CIO has not so its still just someone else's opinions
> 
> Im sorry but so many of you on here are very narrow minded and can not think outside your own mindset. Not everyone on BnB has the same time or lifestyle as you all, so therefore lets just tell them how wonderful a parent you all are and lets tell the rest of them here how there lifestyle is damaging their babies
> 
> So you wonder why other parents have attitude towards AP
> 
> I didn't BF, I went back to work with my baby when he was 2 weeks old, he went to nursery from 12 weeks old 3 afternoons a week, i didn't co-sleep and LO was in his own room from 10 weeks and do you know what he is a very happy baby boy with no developmental issues, so yes I do get annoyed when AParents tell me im damaging my baby and causing him harmClick to expand...
> 
> It is a fact that the more a baby cries the more cortisol (the stress hormone) is released in its brain. Cortisol is linked to behavioural problems and negative effects on the bond with the mother.Click to expand...

I have to agree with Janidog about the studies not being convincing evidence as they look at a household that is not loving in general and neglect and abuse. I'm all for looking at evidence and while I now wouldn't do cc / cio anymore it still raises a few questions for me:

what about those mums with older children / twins / triplets that they have to attend to as well? Inevitably, unless you have lots of help at hand at all times one baby might be left to cry or a period of time due to circumstances Will that baby be damaged too?

Some babies cry more when being held / rocked if they want to go to sleep than if you put them down - wind down crying. I know mine did - she would cry for hours and hours when I held her. But when I put her down in her cot she maybe cried for a couple of minutes or less but then would go straight to sleep. Which scenario is more damaging to the child? According to the cortisol studies it would be the first scenario. :shrug:


----------



## aliss

Just to clear something up,

This is the AP stance on CIO. It doesn't talk about how it will permanently damage your baby, it talks about how it affects trust and bonding. Distance, etc. There's a difference between what some people say (CIO will damage your baby) and what AP says (it can seriously hurt your bond and create distance). 2 totally different things...

https://www.askdrsears.com/topics/fussy-baby/letting-baby-cry-it-out-yes-no


----------



## Cloberella

Rachel_C said:


> I really can't understand why people say "Just look after your own child, why does it matter what another mother does with her child?". Of course it matters! Before I say this, I will clarify that I am NOT saying that people who do things I disagree with are abusive but... I care if a mother locks her child in the bathroom for a day because she can't be bothered looking after him. I care if a mother beats her child with a belt because he's 'naughty'. I care if a mother only feeds her child on chocolate. Just like I care if a mother does something I consider to be dangerous or cruel or selfish even if other people disagree with how I feel about those things. IMO it's people who DON'T care about other mothers and their children that are awful people. I can't imagine going through life not caring. How horrible would it be if nobody cared? If I get labelled as 'on my high horse' or 'holier than thou' because I CARE, well bring on that label! I can think of far worse things for me to be, and one of those is somebody who doesn't care about other children, other people.
> 
> As for facts just being opinions, no, facts are facts. Only people who dislike the facts try to make them out to be opinions. Or teenagers, when they're disagreeing with their mothers.

I agree 100% with this.

And I do feel like AP parents are sidelined in baby club.


----------



## purplepower

fluffpuffin said:


> littlestar85 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Janidog said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> lozzy21 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Janidog said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> lozzy21 said:
> 
> 
> Facts and opinions are two completly different things. Yes you can base your opinion on a fact but it doesnt change the fact existing in the first place.
> 
> But you can't say its a 'fact' about CIO damaging babies, when the only research has been on those children that has been abused and not on the babies that have been brought up by loving nurturing parents that 'OMG' have used CIO/CC - it might be the opinion of certain developmental psychologist, but certainly not allClick to expand...
> 
> But its not just CIO that has problems, its a fact that BF has more benifits for mum and baby than formula and that rear facing is safer than foward facing but people still get jumped on for saying so despite the facts being there to see.Click to expand...
> 
> But just because other subjects have had lots of research, but CIO has not so its still just someone else's opinions
> 
> Im sorry but so many of you on here are very narrow minded and can not think outside your own mindset. Not everyone on BnB has the same time or lifestyle as you all, so therefore lets just tell them how wonderful a parent you all are and lets tell the rest of them here how there lifestyle is damaging their babies
> 
> So you wonder why other parents have attitude towards AP
> 
> I didn't BF, I went back to work with my baby when he was 2 weeks old, he went to nursery from 12 weeks old 3 afternoons a week, i didn't co-sleep and LO was in his own room from 10 weeks and do you know what he is a very happy baby boy with no developmental issues, so yes I do get annoyed when AParents tell me im damaging my baby and causing him harmClick to expand...
> 
> It is a fact that the more a baby cries the more cortisol (the stress hormone) is released in its brain. Cortisol is linked to behavioural problems and negative effects on the bond with the mother.Click to expand...
> 
> I have to agree with Janidog about the studies not being convincing evidence as they look at a household that is not loving in general and neglect and abuse. I'm all for looking at evidence and while I now wouldn't do cc / cio anymore it still raises a few questions for me:
> 
> what about those mums with older children / twins / triplets that they have to attend to as well? Inevitably, unless you have lots of help at hand at all times one baby might be left to cry or a period of time due to circumstances Will that baby be damaged too?
> 
> Some babies cry more when being held / rocked if they want to go to sleep than if you put them down - wind down crying. I know mine did - she would cry for hours and hours when I held her. But when I put her down in her cot she maybe cried for a couple of minutes or less but then would go straight to sleep. Which scenario is more damaging to the child? According to the cortisol studies it would be the first scenario. :shrug:Click to expand...


I may have misunderstood this, but from what I can gather AP does not mean not letting your child cry (this would be impossible). It represents not letting your child cry because you think it's good for them or to sleep/train them to do something. Does this make sense? For example my LO woke up crying at the supermarket checkout, I leant over the pram, stroked and reassured him, I paid for my shopping and then took him to the cafe and fed him, he had to cry for a minute or two while I was able to attend to him but I hadn't left him to cry, that is how I see it anyway.


----------



## Kota

Yep, there is a BIG difference between your child crying for a few minutes because you are physically unable to meet their needs right there and then. However even if you can't pick them up, you may be able to sing to them, talk to the, stroke their face, etc etc. you are still communicating to your baby that you are there, you know they need you, and you are doing what you can until you are able to fully meet that need by picking them up. etc. 

and doing CC/CIO in the sense of a child 'must learn to self settle'. Walking away from your child, with the intention of letting them cry, is 'training' your child to not need you........ 



to fall asleep.


From an AP stand point, why would you ever want to teach your child, especially at such a young age.. that they don't need their mother/father for any reason.


----------



## fluffpuffin

Thanks for the info girls :flower:


----------



## DanielleM

I just want to say thank you to you all for sharing all of your opinions and facts in this thread, it has severely changed my attitude to AP/NP parenting as I was very niave and clueless before to it!!

I am a frequent reader and occasional poster in BC and I have to say I will never jump on an AP/NP parent, and where possible will help other people to see your side of things!

:thumbup: this thread has at least changed one persons mindset!!


----------



## ellie

Facts aren't the same as opinions :dohh: 
Although it may be more comfortable to sometimes dismiss a fact if it does not fit with your beliefs, that's a natural human trait that we all have and we all do it sometimes.
You could debate 'what are facts' forever though, as lets face it there is no "ultimate truth" in anything really, life is not that black and white ....

In which case, I thought I would just explain a bit more. When I talk about "facts" I am talking about a LOT of research, studies, theories, writing etc, which all point to the same thing and which has become a known in attachment psychology and even neurology. Also, behaviourists, or other ways of thinking, will have their own theories, research, studies, writing etc. The thing that makes the difference for me is that AT/AP has more and more physical evidence (so could be taken as "hard facts") about the effects on the brain of things like neglect, leaving to cry, but also extreme attachment problems. Yes they are extreme cases and you could argue wouldnt be general to everybody. But the brain studies do show how attachment develops physically in the brain, and that is general to everybody, so I think it is naive to dismiss thinking about it even in loving families when it comes to things like CIO/CC/"sleep training". Even if you believed that (say) a bit of CIO didnt have any effect on your babys developing brain, you should still know about the theories and research to make a properly informed decision, before deciding to go along with the very pervasive belief that "cc/cio works". Even if you believe there would be no consequences in their adult relationships, you should still know that it is a possibility before deciding whether to do it or not.

Others have said this already but I think the essence of AP is the basic attachment theory principle, which is that the infant forms a 'model' in his/her brain during the first year of relationships, based on the very first attachmetn relationship (usually the mother). This model is lifelong and will be hard wired into our brains from very early on. It will tell us how to think about other people, what to expect from them, how to behave with them, whether you can rely on them, and how you manage your emotions. So in a generally loving family, its not about developmental milestones, its about their lifelong pattern of how they see the world. It is also a fact (ie. according to what I said above about facts) that this is very difficult to change, especially past a few years old.
Here's an example of how the attachment relationship builds up :
Baby cries (in response to something in them that they need, or something outside)
Parent responds, by picking them up or being nearby (so you could argue that CC _could_ satisfy this)
Parent helps baby to calm down and work out what they are feeling "oh are you hungry? wet? tired?" etc and link their emotions to whatever it is
Baby is brought back to their calm state via the parents' response
The brain cells make these links and every time this is repeated the link is made stronger

So if you cry and your needs are met, you learn that you are loveable and worth attention, and that others are available and trustworthy and caring. You learn that your emotions can be labelled and managed. 
If you cry and your needs are not met (or you are not comforted/held), you learn that you are not loveable and that others are rejecting and can't be trusted. So you grow up believeing that you have to be self sufficient, you cant rely on other people to be there for you, that your feelings are so big and overwhelming that no one can cope with them (not even you). You become over-sensitive (e.g to anxiety/anger) because those bits of your brain get more links sent to them.

Hope that makes sense. Bear with me! If you are a generally loving and caring and attentive parent (and lets face it, pretty much everyone on BNB will be by default), a bit of crying now and again (like when you physically cant help or cant get to them) will not be causing lots of damage, because you'll repair it by comforting them as soon as you can and they learn to trust that they will be comforted. All the psychologists I've come across have said don't worry, all babies cry, you very likely havent caused them any damage, as long as you've repaired it afterwards - so I doubt anyone on here has any reason to worry! 
I've been thinking more about "sleep training" though and the reason I reckon you won't find any studies saying "CIO works to teach babies to sleep" is because you have got no way of knowing what is going on in their little brains until they get to adulthood, by which time there would be way too many factors to say for sure that X when you were a baby led to Y (unless theres clear cut abuse / trauma / neglect).

I thought I would also post some reading on attachment theory / attachment parenting, in case people are interested and want to read more. The best book (and most readable) is "Why Love Matters" by Sue Gerhardt. This has a great chapter about the cortisol/stress theory. There is also "What every parent needs to know: the remarkable effects of love, nurture and play on your child's development" (Sunderland).
Some other books (for those who might be interested):
Bowlby's "Attachment and Loss"
"Attachment and Adolescence - the influence of attachment patterns on teenage behaviour" (in "Teenagers and Attachment: Helping adolescents engage with life and learning" (Karl Heinz Brisch)
Anything by Dan Hughes (he mostly works with looked after children)
Solomon, M, & Siegel, D (2003) Healing trauma: attachment, mind, body and brain. 
Ainsworth et al (1978) Patterns of attachment: a psychological study of the strange situation. 
Schore, A.N. (1994) Affect regulation and the origin of self: the neurobiology of emotional development.
Stern, D.N. (1995) The interpersonal world of the infant.
I have lots of refs for studies but theyr mainly about trauma, looked after children etc, but pm me if you want them. One more general one though is Lott D (2003) Brain development, attachment and impact on psychic vulnerability. Psychiatric Times, 15(5), 1-5.

I think there are lots of good links on the Dr Sears site, there are also quite a few great ones posted on this thread! :thumbup:

Anyway, back on topic of the thread, I wonder what people think now about the title of this section? Do people still want it to be attachment / eco / natural etc? There is lots of talk about cloth nappies in here :) so it would still need to be that right?

Sorry another long one but I don't get on here frequently so when I do I have to spill my guts :haha:


----------



## ellie

DanielleMitch said:


> I just want to say thank you to you all for sharing all of your opinions and facts in this thread, it has severely changed my attitude to AP/NP parenting as I was very niave and clueless before to it!!
> 
> I am a frequent reader and occasional poster in BC and I have to say I will never jump on an AP/NP parent, and where possible will help other people to see your side of things!
> 
> :thumbup: this thread has at least changed one persons mindset!!

Cool! :thumbup: :happydance:

I think we try really hard to see the 'other' side of things and disagree that AP's/NPs dont think outside of their box or whatever. But it does feel like you're :argh: sometimes!


----------



## mandarhino

ellie said:


> Facts aren't the same as opinions :dohh:
> Although it may be more comfortable to sometimes dismiss a fact if it does not fit with your beliefs, that's a natural human trait that we all have and we all do it sometimes.
> You could debate 'what are facts' forever though, as lets face it there is no "ultimate truth" in anything really, life is not that black and white ....
> 
> In which case, I thought I would just explain a bit more. When I talk about "facts" I am talking about a LOT of research, studies, theories, writing etc, which all point to the same thing and which has become a known in attachment psychology and even neurology. Also, behaviourists, or other ways of thinking, will have their own theories, research, studies, writing etc. The thing that makes the difference for me is that AT/AP has more and more physical evidence (so could be taken as "hard facts") about the effects on the brain of things like neglect, leaving to cry, but also extreme attachment problems. Yes they are extreme cases and you could argue wouldnt be general to everybody. But the brain studies do show how attachment develops physically in the brain, and that is general to everybody, so I think it is naive to dismiss thinking about it even in loving families when it comes to things like CIO/CC/"sleep training". Even if you believed that (say) a bit of CIO didnt have any effect on your babys developing brain, you should still know about the theories and research to make a properly informed decision, before deciding to go along with the very pervasive belief that "cc/cio works". Even if you believe there would be no consequences in their adult relationships, you should still know that it is a possibility before deciding whether to do it or not.
> 
> Others have said this already but I think the essence of AP is the basic attachment theory principle, which is that the infant forms a 'model' in his/her brain during the first year of relationships, based on the very first attachmetn relationship (usually the mother). This model is lifelong and will be hard wired into our brains from very early on. It will tell us how to think about other people, what to expect from them, how to behave with them, whether you can rely on them, and how you manage your emotions. So in a generally loving family, its not about developmental milestones, its about their lifelong pattern of how they see the world. It is also a fact (ie. according to what I said above about facts) that this is very difficult to change, especially past a few years old.
> Here's an example of how the attachment relationship builds up :
> Baby cries (in response to something in them that they need, or something outside)
> Parent responds, by picking them up or being nearby (so you could argue that CC _could_ satisfy this)
> Parent helps baby to calm down and work out what they are feeling "oh are you hungry? wet? tired?" etc and link their emotions to whatever it is
> Baby is brought back to their calm state via the parents' response
> The brain cells make these links and every time this is repeated the link is made stronger
> 
> So if you cry and your needs are met, you learn that you are loveable and worth attention, and that others are available and trustworthy and caring. You learn that your emotions can be labelled and managed.
> If you cry and your needs are not met (or you are not comforted/held), you learn that you are not loveable and that others are rejecting and can't be trusted. So you grow up believeing that you have to be self sufficient, you cant rely on other people to be there for you, that your feelings are so big and overwhelming that no one can cope with them (not even you). You become over-sensitive (e.g to anxiety/anger) because those bits of your brain get more links sent to them.
> 
> Hope that makes sense. Bear with me! If you are a generally loving and caring and attentive parent (and lets face it, pretty much everyone on BNB will be by default), a bit of crying now and again (like when you physically cant help or cant get to them) will not be causing lots of damage, because you'll repair it by comforting them as soon as you can and they learn to trust that they will be comforted. All the psychologists I've come across have said don't worry, all babies cry, you very likely havent caused them any damage, as long as you've repaired it afterwards - so I doubt anyone on here has any reason to worry!
> I've been thinking more about "sleep training" though and the reason I reckon you won't find any studies saying "CIO works to teach babies to sleep" is because you have got no way of knowing what is going on in their little brains until they get to adulthood, by which time there would be way too many factors to say for sure that X when you were a baby led to Y (unless theres clear cut abuse / trauma / neglect).
> 
> I thought I would also post some reading on attachment theory / attachment parenting, in case people are interested and want to read more. The best book (and most readable) is "Why Love Matters" by Sue Gerhardt. This has a great chapter about the cortisol/stress theory. There is also "What every parent needs to know: the remarkable effects of love, nurture and play on your child's development" (Sunderland).
> Some other books (for those who might be interested):
> Bowlby's "Attachment and Loss"
> "Attachment and Adolescence - the influence of attachment patterns on teenage behaviour" (in "Teenagers and Attachment: Helping adolescents engage with life and learning" (Karl Heinz Brisch)
> Anything by Dan Hughes (he mostly works with looked after children)
> Solomon, M, & Siegel, D (2003) Healing trauma: attachment, mind, body and brain.
> Ainsworth et al (1978) Patterns of attachment: a psychological study of the strange situation.
> Schore, A.N. (1994) Affect regulation and the origin of self: the neurobiology of emotional development.
> Stern, D.N. (1995) The interpersonal world of the infant.
> I have lots of refs for studies but theyr mainly about trauma, looked after children etc, but pm me if you want them. One more general one though is Lott D (2003) Brain development, attachment and impact on psychic vulnerability. Psychiatric Times, 15(5), 1-5.
> 
> I think there are lots of good links on the Dr Sears site, there are also quite a few great ones posted on this thread! :thumbup:
> 
> Anyway, back on topic of the thread, I wonder what people think now about the title of this section? Do people still want it to be attachment / eco / natural etc? There is lots of talk about cloth nappies in here :) so it would still need to be that right?
> 
> Sorry another long one but I don't get on here frequently so when I do I have to spill my guts :haha:

Excellent post ellie. 

The reason why I have refused to do CC/CIO is because it was used on me as a baby. I have self esteem issues, difficulties trusting people and forming bonds. We could argue round the houses whether it was do with my parents using CIO methods on me as a baby or other formative experiences in my life. My parents were otherwise very loving and very involved in my life. I have an excellent relationship with them as an adult. 

I've chosen not to take the risk and have always gone to my daughter at night. And she was a horrific sleeper until about 3 months ago and I've worked full time for the past year. It has been f*cking hell on earth at times but I figured it is a short period in my life and a really important one in hers. 

Hell maybe she'll still hate me when she's a teen and it won't have made any difference to how she turns out. I'll never wonder what if though.


----------



## ellie

:hugs: mandarhino.
I feel the same as you. My parents wont tell me whether they left me to cry but they always say I never cried and slept like a log from the word go (but i was in neonatal on my own for 2-3 weeks, my mum was in another building and not allowed to see me mostly, this was the 1970s, so you might guess that maybe i was crying a lot there and ignored) ... hmmm.
Thats why I dont buy the "my baby is fine" argument, well chances are yes they probably are, but how on earth would you ever know how well they are able to function in a relationship as an adult. 
Part of the reason why AP appeals to me so much and fits so well with us.

Yeah I feel crap often because I'm knackered and he's hard work :) but it'll pass. And like you I know too much about it now to ever think 'what if', and also my LO is tiny for such a small amount of time, I just feel its my job to be there for him no matter what and to make sure he knows he is loved and worthy, its such a small timespan in the grand scheme. 

Plus I hate wasting things hence I dont use sposies which at least makes me feel a little bit like i'm doing something for the planet :haha: and I hate carting a buggy round in my car when a carrier is so much smaller and lighter, and I got to cuddle him loads more :haha:

Yeah he might still hate me when he gets older but if so I'll cross that bridge then and aim to work it out with him how I can help him (if he'll talk to me lol!) AP doesnt just stop when they start walking, does it, its a lifelong parenting approach.


----------



## kmac625

Lightworker said:


> Littlestar- I do agree that being AP parent does not restrict you to a particular lifestyle as such. I worked fulltime from 6 weeks postpartum with DD1 and still did the "AP-related parenting". I am now a SAHM, with LO and still do it. I also agree that in BC the dynamics are skewed such that non-AP parents can say anything (someone once said she thought extended BF was disgusting, and nobody called her on it except me) but AP cant. It's not right to judge but sometimes opinions are mistaken as judgement.

I think actually you will find that a lot of people who post in bc would agree there's nothing wrong with extended bf and get upset when someone says it's disgusting (someone was banned because she got so upset and verbalized it). I think one of the main issues that causes disagreements in bc about AP is that a lot of people don't understand fully what it is (I know I didn't). Now that I've been reading about it in the NP section, I realize that for the most part it's what I practice, without knowing that's what I was doing. I would guess the same would go for many other of the Mommies in bc too.


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## littlestar85

DanielleMitch said:


> I just want to say thank you to you all for sharing all of your opinions and facts in this thread, it has severely changed my attitude to AP/NP parenting as I was very niave and clueless before to it!!
> 
> I am a frequent reader and occasional poster in BC and I have to say I will never jump on an AP/NP parent, and where possible will help other people to see your side of things!
> 
> :thumbup: this thread has at least changed one persons mindset!!

DanielleMitch that's so nice to hear! :hugs:

Ellie - your posts are fantastic :thumbup:

x


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## littlestar85

kmac625 said:


> Lightworker said:
> 
> 
> Littlestar- I do agree that being AP parent does not restrict you to a particular lifestyle as such. I worked fulltime from 6 weeks postpartum with DD1 and still did the "AP-related parenting". I am now a SAHM, with LO and still do it. I also agree that in BC the dynamics are skewed such that non-AP parents can say anything (someone once said she thought extended BF was disgusting, and nobody called her on it except me) but AP cant. It's not right to judge but sometimes opinions are mistaken as judgement.
> 
> I think actually you will find that a lot of people who post in bc would agree there's nothing wrong with extended bf and get upset when someone says it's disgusting (someone was banned because she got so upset and verbalized it).* I think one of the main issues that causes disagreements in bc about AP is that a lot of people don't understand fully what it is* (I know I didn't). Now that I've been reading about it in the NP section, I realize that for the most part it's what I practice, without knowing that's what I was doing. I would guess the same would go for many other of the Mommies in bc too.Click to expand...

I think that's completely true ^^^ 

x


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## Lightworker

A PP mentioned crying and African babies and it sparked my interest so I googled and found this 

www.naturalchild.org/guest/claire_niala.html

I remember saying something similar in a colic thread but that was based on my own individual observation, but its similar to what she says.


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## T-Bex

I've read that before, and it makes so much sense. We kept being told to stop feeding her as much once she hit 6 months (three times a day, we were told, and none during the night, by HV :nope:), but just offering her boob when she needed/wanted it seemed to make so much more sense, and made us a lot happier...


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## cherryglitter

When I first joined this forum I was a hotheaded TTC woman who would jump in on an argument at the first chance. 

I've actually learnt SO SO MUCH since then and it's really changed the way I word my opinions. Not just here, but in real life too! I've met some amazing friends.

I used to feel that people were 'holier than thou' but I do not think that in the slightest now. I take everyone's opinion on board and just look at it from their point of view. I can't be bothered to argue any more :haha:

I FF'd from birth, I use forward facing carseats and i've just began using cloth nappies. I feel very much that I fit in here and in baby club. :flower: I've always felt slightly more welcome here though (no disrespect to BC at all!) even though 'all im doing' is using cloth nappies.

I guess BC get's a lot of traffic, so to speak, so wires are going to be crossed somewhere. I do agree with people not understanding what AP/NP is... I was one of them! I've been thoroughly educated by so many women on here though. Half the things I do I wouldn't have been doing if it weren't for BnB. I'm actually very grateful for this forum. (Time to get emotional ;))

BF & FF threads used to really stress me out, I just tend to steer clear now. Im proud I FF and I know I am also going to try and BF my next child. It's all about doing what's right for you at that time in your life :)


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## ellie

^^ :thumbup: :)


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