# Fifth loss in a row (the worst sequel in the world)



## LacePrincess

It's confirmed now that we will be having our fifth loss in a row.

I had my followup scan yesterday, at 8w. Embryo measured 6w2d with a hb of only 48.

And now I have to wait for the heartbeat to fade away. We've had a lot of losses, but we've never had to wait out a dying heartbeat before, and it just feels so much harder. That there WAS a life, still is a little life, but it's not going to make it. :cry:

The good news is that I o'ed from my right, which is the side I have a blocked tube on, so clearly I can get preggo from my right ovary (my dominant ovary) despite the blocked tube.

This pregnancy was pretty classic aneuploid. Slow hcg off the bat, behind on every scan, slow heartbeat. So, some kind of trisomy. At least it looks like it shouldn't be an underlying immune or other chronic disorder with me that's causing the losses.

However, the question remains - why so many aneuploids in a row? DH and I are both 37, not super old. I suspect sperm issues are the main culprit, but there's really no fix for that. We're still waiting for our karyotyping results and I'm really eager to get those and see if maybe we've had a karyotype issue all along that is biting us in the butt now. 

In the meantime, the hubby isn't dealing with this very well. He's frustrated and feeling helpless, and as a guy he just can't accept that he can't fix it. Plus I'm sure there's guilt there that it's his side of things that's the problem. 

I'm just sad that there's a little dying bean inside, and I have such mixed feelings about that. I want my body to pass things quickly, but then I feel guilty hoping for the little bean to pass quick too. And I just don't understand why it's never our turn, and why this keeps happening to us. :growlmad:


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## Sweetkat

I am so sorry you are going through this. 

I have to say we are mirror images of each other (except that I am too scared to get pregnant after the 3rd MMC).

My second loss was the same. Behind on every scan, very slow hb around 7 weeks, also no hope and was told large yolk sack and chromosomal.

Nothing has been diagnosed for me or OH (we paid thousands for private tests and also had them on the national health (NHS) (the ones we could - same tests just to double check).

But OH's fragmentation is 44%. It basically means there is a 35% chance of miscarriage instead of the usual 20% at our age (I am now 36).

My OH is taking anti oxidants and off the medication causing the fragmentation and I am not trying unless fragmentation down or with donor sperm. Weirdly though our last loss was due to Down syndrome which apparrently has nothing to do with fragmentation. So yours too could be random bad luck and fragmentation combined.

Big hugs, I hated the fact baby was alive and yet wouldn't make it with second loss and yet the physical process was like a heavy period and had a period 4 weeks later. 

Big big hugs


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## LacePrincess

Thanks so much Sweetkat. It sucks. I'm so sorry you went through this too. :(

Well I'm pretty crampy today, and when I checked internally in the shower there was a tiny bit of blood streaked ewcm this morning, so hopefully this means my body is starting to m/c on its own. It would be nice not to have to use Cytotec or worse have to have a d&c.

I have such mixed feelings though, about being glad it feels like the m/c is starting. I mean there's relief that it shouldn't drag on and on but also guilt because that means the bean has died. :(

Otherwise, I had a good day. I went to ballet class, and it was great not having to think about this at all. I'm glad I went. I'm also not feeling too sad, at least not yet. But I was extremely detached and expecting another loss all the way with this one, I just presume every bfp I get will end badly. I'm kind of cynical now. 

We're still waiting for our karyotyping results, I'll followup on Monday. I wish we could get a DNA frag test done because I'm really quite sure it's a sperm DNA problem, but they don't have that test at my clinic.


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## Sweetkat

It's awful to have to go through it, but what makes me feel a bit better is that with my last two losses, they couldn't and wouldn't have made it to full term (because of chromosomal issues). With the first one I have no idea. So at least it's not like my body is rejecting healthy babies :(

But of course I desperately want a healthy baby. I think about it almost every minute of every day. OH is going to have another fragmentation test in 3 weeks and then we will see if there is any change.

The NHS (state system here) also doesn't do these tests and said oh it might not matter. It's like hello, every research paper says it leads to poor embryo quality. I had a scan of the womb last week and asked the Dr at state clinic all these questions and she said I don't know. But at the private clinic I was told it raises risk of miscarriage from 20% to 35%. That Dr (who works in a fertility/ assisted reproduction clinic) also told me that all of his couples with DNA fragmentation went on to have babies and only 2 used donor sperm.


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## LacePrincess

Sweetkat, that's true. It would be worse if my body was rejecting healthy embryos. So I am glad that I'm pretty sure now it's not me, it's the embryos.

OTOH, why the F*^&$*% are we making so damned many aneuploids?!?!? WTF!

The timing is curious. I always seem to lose them at EXACTLY the same point, with the exception of the chemicals. Otherwise it's been, 6w, 6w3d, mmc measuring 6w3d, and this one measured 6w2d. Almost to the day they stop growing at 4.7mm or so. So what the heck is going on at that point of development that my embies never seem to be able to make it past?

I found this rather interesting article about how sperm damage causes miscarriage. Not a lot of suggestions on what to do, but it makes sense!!


https://www.tommys.org/miscarriage-research-project-6-impact-damaged-sperm-miscarriage

Oh it does give me hope what your dr said, that even with DNA frag eventually it's possible to have a healthy baby, just.....how many losses will it take to get there, yk?


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## LacePrincess

Oh this is a good article too:

https://humrep.oxfordjournals.org/content/17/8/1959.long

Basically it says what I've always thought......that RPL can be due to implanting aneuploid embies when the body really should be rejecting them.

Which means - maybe the Femara was making me uselessly super fertile after all. So next step for us - going unmedicated again and seeing if my body will figure out what to do.


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## ReadynWaiting

Lace- first off I'm so sorry you are going through this again. I hate that anyone has to experience this bullshit. I feel like you are literally telling my story! Last year we would get pg just looking at each other but never made it past 7 weeks. We saw 2 with a hb but they never developed past 7 weeks. Hb was always a little low. The other 4 losses were chemicals. The 2 MMC I held inside for 5-6 weeks as my body wouldn't recognize they had passed. Our tests came back normal, sperm was fine! 
In all of my reading the only thing that I can think might be an issue is high inflammation or high nk cells. I doubt it's either but I don't know what else it could be an no one else seems to know. Here in Canada we aren't as advanced or willing to recognize issues that they do in the UK and Australia. It's so freakin frustrating! I want to think of something else and focus on something different. I feel stuck and angry and I'm tired of it! We are approaching 3 years of ttc this baby and I've just had enough. There are girls on the rmc thread that have had over 10 losses to finally get their rainbow. I don't know if I can keep having more but I so desperately want another baby. 
I get the complete disconnect as it's happened the last 4 losses! I don't want to hope because it causes to much pain when it doesn't work out. My heart goes out to you and I hope you can have that rainbow.


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## Sweetkat

At the private clinic I was diagnosed with elevated NK cells. State system doesn't believe in them.

But here is the big but, I asked if NK cells lead to chromosomal issues and was told no. And my last two losses were chromosomal. So NK cells didn't cause the losses but could have contributed to them... Well I don't know if I believe in a NK cells but am prepared to take steroids. Yet those NK cells don't explain the last two losses.


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## ReadynWaiting

LacePrincess said:


> Oh this is a good article too:
> 
> https://humrep.oxfordjournals.org/content/17/8/1959.long
> 
> Basically it says what I've always thought......that RPL can be due to implanting aneuploid embies when the body really should be rejecting them.
> 
> Which means - maybe the Femara was making me uselessly super fertile after all. So next step for us - going unmedicated again and seeing if my body will figure out what to do.

This is a good article.


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## LacePrincess

Ready - thanks so much. This is one helluva craptastic shared experience, but I am glad not to be alone. I'm so sorry for all of yours too, no one should have to deal with this bullcrap.

I don't think mine are NK cells either, as we have had kids without issues. And mine seem textbook aneuploid so it's a chromosome issue. Actually my latest one is pretty classic Trisomy 16 or 18. 

I am willing to keep trying (and losing) to get my rainbow, but I really hope it doesn't take double digits!!! I'm just SICK of losing all this time every loss. Like if they're aneuploid, why can't my stupid body just reject them? Why implant, hang on for 8 weeks, if it's never meant to be? By the time I get the m/c over with and wait for the hcg to drop enough to ovulate again, I could've had had 3 regular attempts. I just get so angry at the passage of time.

Today my body isn't doing anything. Barely crampy, no spotting, just pissing me off. 

Well we are backing off a bit, we're going to take till the end of the year off with no meds or supplements and just trying on our own and seeing what happens. Then we'll re-evaluate after that, but probably I'll go for the IVF after that.

Oh and I don't let myself hope. EVER. It's too damned hard when it fails again. Except this time there was a hb, and that's a first for us with the losses, and that makes it harder since there was a life in there and it lived even if only for a very tiny little bit. It wasn't 'just' an embryo that never lived, yk? It's harder this time.


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## Sweetkat

It is shit and definitely been the worst year of my life (I was first pregnant exactly a year ago). Also saw hb with last 2 losses and with the Downs one saw it 4 times and everything was measuring perfect by 8 weeks.

Thing is, if that baby had made it it would have had a hard life. I know people have Downs babies and they are happy and everything, but they do have health issues, they do get abuse, they have to deal with a lot.

So for me, it was devastating to have the MC but maybe it saved that baby from suffering??

I don't know, nature is shit. You would have thought it would reject bad embryos at comception, not nearly 11 weeks (my last loss).

We will get our babies in the end!

I am half considering IVF with ICSI and IMSI (although the Dr said as we are getting pregnant naturally he would rather not). So I think natural is still preferred.

Big hugs


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## LacePrincess

Thanks Sweetkat. ((((((HUGS!!!!)))))))

Yeah there's no other word for it. Shit and more shit. What else is there to say? LOL

I'm in my depressed mode today. My body is doing NOTHING, not even cramping, so f^%$ck this crap, yk?

It's really sad that all I want now is to pass something recognizable so I have something to bury for closure. I hate that so far, my body's either reabsorbed or broken up the tissue so I don't pass anything that doesn't just look like period. It seems to feel like it somehow minimizes the losses even worse, like my tiny babies never were here, only in my head.......it makes it worse. 

I'm also just praying that by Wed, the hb WILL be gone. And then I feel guilt. But the thing is, at 48bpm, that is far far too slow to not have a terrible defect, and I do not want to have to choose termination. I don't. I need nature to take care of it. I also read that in very rare cases, Trisomy 18 babies can be born, but have something like 5% life expectancy by the age of 1. I just.....I can't. I need it to resolve by itself because I don't want a hand in ending the little life, I think that would break me completely yk?

I just think it's tragic that the 'best' I can hope for now is that the little bean dies peacefully on its own and I don't have to choose something I just don't want to choose.

We have our OHIP covered IVF round with ICSI, which we'll do, but we won't pay for more after that. It won't help us since bad sperm is creating our aneuploids. I think if our IVF fails, our next step will probably be PGS tested donor embryos. Neither me nor hubby seem very comfortable yet with the idea of donor sperm IUI, it's not sitting right as an idea.


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## ReadynWaiting

Lace I totally understand everything you are feeling. My biggest fear is that I grow a baby and I lose him or her at birth. I'm in a loss support group and and there are far too many that have lost their babies either in the 2nd or 3rd tri or at birth. I don't know how I would survive that. 
I'm starting to really consider Ivf but hate to have to go through the whole process. I've had 2 friends that have and it was emotionally draining and physically painful. I'm not totally convinced yet. 
Lace I hope things happen soon so you aren't waiting in agony. The last MMC I knew from 7 weeks until 12 weeks that the baby had died. I wanted things to happen naturally and not have another d and c but as luck would have it I hemourraged and had to have one anyways. My thoughts are with you.


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## LacePrincess

Thanks so much Ready. The waiting is pretty hard to bear. :(

IVF wasn't physically hard for me, but it was emotionally stressful. You just put so much time (and usually money) into it....I mean, it takes like a month to even prepare to start (the irony of a month on the pill to do IVF!), then the shots, then the reports, and with us the reports always sucked. Watching all your money go down the drain, realizing every night you've just injected yourself with hundreds of dollars of drugs......it's pretty much a total mindf*ck unless tens of thousands of $$$ is nothing to you.

And of course, if it doesn't work, the disappointment is pretty crushing. I think it's hard for us who have RPL as our problem, to choose IVF. Because we *can* get pregnant on our own, that's not our problem. So it's tough to justify the work and stress of IVF to *maybe* improve our chances? It's such a total gamble. 

Oh no way do I want to wait till 12 weeks. I only delayed the Cytotec last week because I couldn't induce the m/c with a hb still there. I'm not sure what I'm going to do this week if the h/b hasn't stopped. My hpt's are fading out a tiny bit, so I really hope that means that the bean has passed away and things are starting to progress.


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## LacePrincess

Update, had another scan today. The embryo didn't grow since last week and the heartbeat was gone. 

So it was the best outcome we could have hoped for today, we're glad at least that the embryo passed on its own and we didn't have to make a choice about whether to terminate or not. I feel a huge relief that the end is in sight.

We also got a second opinion from a different RE today, he basically thinks I'm superfertile and implanting everything when my body should really be much more selective. He's not really sure why it's happening, but that pretty much agrees with what I think is going on too.


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## ReadynWaiting

Lace I'm glad you got the outcome that you were looking for. Now I hope the process to pass everything goes quickly. Again so sorry you are going through this but at least you know where things stand right now. 
As for the super fertility thing that was me last year. There isn't a lot out there as far as research or answers but if you come across anything I would be interested to know.


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## LacePrincess

Thanks Ready. The relief was incredible - I'm sure the RE thought I had gone around the bend, but it was just such a HUGE weight off my conscience.

What've you tried so far regarding the superfertility problem? Aside from IVF/PGS I haven't seen any solutions. The RE said that they know it happens, but they have no way of turning the uterine receptivity back from "taking all comers" to be more discerning. At least they're studying it but it's not like any treatments will be created for quite awhile.


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## ReadynWaiting

So I believe my 'super fertility' became more so after each consecutive pregnancy/miscarriage. I had hormones pumping through my body for a year basically. I think my body was just used to being pg and so it didn't discern between viable and non. In March we took a break to give my body a break which I think maybe reset my body. The past 2 cycles we are back to really ttc and last month I had a positive test for a day (10 dpo) which then turned negative the next day. As crazy as it sounds I'm happy it happened because my body hopefully is recognizing good from not. I guess we will see this cycle what happens. If I get another positive hpt then I may get concerned again that my body is doing what it's supposed to. 
As for what we have done- I have been working with a ND/TCM who has been working on making my body as healthy and ready as possible to 'house' another baby. We met with a RE in Jan and I was totally turned off by the whole process and him that we didn't go back. In all of my reading and research I think I'm pretty versed on many issues and treatments but he wouldn't listen to any of it. He basically said my eggs are probably old and he wanted to hyper stimulate them to pop out many at once. To me that just sounds like he's rushing me towards menopause. 
If I don't get LH in the next 3 cycles my ND is referring me to someone else. Only time will tell.


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## ReadynWaiting

*pregnant not LH


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## LacePrincess

Ready, I hear you on the RE. A lot of them just shove you towards IVF no matter what - more $$$ in it for them that way. It can make you very cynical!!

I do love my RE. He's very kind and empathetic with me, and he knows I like info so he always tells me why he's recommending stuff. At first I think he was affronted by my questioning and suggestions, like I was questioning his expertise, but he soon realized it's just how I cope - by researching the crap and hyperplanning everything in an effort to control the outcome somehow.

Unfortunately my clinic is super conservative, so they really have just run out of ideas. And they will not throw things at the wall to see what sticks indiscriminately, even though I wish they would.....they're very much a 'only if benefits clearly outweigh the risks' practice. Which I can respect even if in my desperation I'm willing to risk it all, including my future health. 

That is a REALLY interesting idea that you felt with each m/c you got more superfertile!! I kind of think that might be happening to me. My lining is so stupidly perfectly (it's usually 11-12mm by mid LP) and with all the hormones and Femara and coming off m/c all the time, I think I'm overprimed too. I'm 37 though and just feel like every frigging month is another month closer to running out of time and I just don't want to take a break. 

Well we are sort of taking a break, but not with ttc, just from meds. So maybe my body will calm down and rebalance a bit. 

Oh update. I picked up the misoprostol yesterday and had intended to start it on Sat, but this morning I've started to spot red and bleed lightly, so fx this means I'll just have a natural m/c which is always a better thing than having to artificially induce it. And I have a perfect excuse not to attend DH's mess dinner tomorrow, mwuah!


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## ReadynWaiting

Lace can I ask where you are in Canada? I'm in Ontario, outside of Toronto. If you are familiar with any good clinics in the GTA I'm open to it. I was referred to this RE by my ob but I feel his ego got the better of him as I was questioning things and presenting ideas of how I wanted to do things. I don't need someone like that, I need someone that is going to see me as an individual and listen to what I want to happen. I'm all about directing my own care lol. 
I'm 38 (and a half-but who's counting?! Lol) so I feel ya on the time crunch. I always said I don't want to be 40 having kids but it looks like that's what's going to happen. I'm ok with it too, just bring on the baby! 
I'm so happy (sounds wrong) that you are starting naturally. I hope it happens quickly for you. Have you heard of Anna's wild yam cream? I'm going to look in to it later but it supposed to be helpful in regulating af and balancing hormones. The clots in your period (I saw it in the rmc thread) shouldn't be happening and I would think the RE would want to get to the bottom of it.


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## LacePrincess

Ready, I'm actually quite close to you! We're in Kingston. I've actually been waiting on referrals to a GTA clinic, York Fertility actually. My friend used them for her fertility issues, and she was very happy with them (and she's very discerning!) I'm at Ottawa Fertility Centre now. I've been treated very well at OFC, and I adore the staff there, but their over-conservative approach doesn't have anything to offer me anymore.

I've also heard great things about Markham Fertility and Hannam but those two are far more famous so the waiting lists are longer. 

Omg I hear you on 40. That's my hard deadline too - but who knows, I might change my mind when I get closer..... :wacko: Though I dunno, I'm terrified of the increased Downs risks too. Maybe when I get a bit older and my friends are all done with babies, it won't be as tough to walk away.

I have not heard of the yam cream! I will see if I can find it. I've always been clotty with AF since I was a teen, so to me....it's normal, lol. And I had 3 normal kids while being clotty. I thought for sure I'd test positive for a clotting problem, but...nope! I hope my body will get on with things, still just spotting tonight but I'm feeling pretty AF crampy so.....fx.......


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## ReadynWaiting

Kingston! I'm in Belleville so not far at all. Such a small world isn't it? 
So you have been referred and you are waiting to hear from the clinic or you are waiting on the ob to send the referral through? I'm hesitant to see anyone in case I don't like them. I just don't want to waste anyone's time, especially not mine. 
There is a TCM clinic in To that I am tempted to go and see but it's pricey and I don't want to be sent home with more supplements. As it is I just spent $277 today on new supplements from my ND in hopes that it will make the difference. It's hard when there is no dx issue, just kind of shooting in the dark and hope that something works. 
I don't feel like my friends are slowing down any time soon with making babies but when 40 hits and if there still is no baby I may just call it quits. My dd for the past week has been saying her baby is coming soon. She said her baby sister should be here really soon. I'm hoping its some kind of intuition and she speaks the truth lol. Here's to hoping anyways!


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## LacePrincess

Ready - WOW! Belleville! You're in my backyard - how cool is that? We should meet up!

We've had our GP send the referral, haven't heard from the clinic yet or anything but we need to follow up soon. I don't have an OB, just go to a regular GP for non-IF stuff. 

Honestly my opinion of TCM stuff is.....well.....not to offend anyone, but I find it all a bunch of hooey. Especially anything to do with energy channels. And all the supps IMO are either a) a placebo or b) full of unknown who-the-heck-knows-what that can really mess you up. So I don't believe in it. Nor do I believe in fertility yoga, or relaxation/meditation courses. Not for me. I mean I'm GETTING pregnant and none of this stuff will change the faulty DNA make-up in our embryos. 

I'm sorry you have lots of fertile friends. :( That's so tough. Thankfully I've moved away from my old neighborhood and all the new friends I'm making here in Kingston I met when I posted about our m/c, so they're all IF ladies too. Makes it easier!!

PS. If you're interested I can PM you my RL contact info if you want. :)


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## ReadynWaiting

Lace-we have a PAIL network support meeting in Belleville every other Wednesday. If you ever need support its a great group. There are a variety of different women with different loss stories (early mc to full term). It's just nice to be around a group of people that are ok if you talk about your losses. You don't feel so isolated! 
I guess for me I have had nothing but misinformation and incompetent care wth Drs that I just don't trust them any more. I try to avoid meds, intervention and Drs that base their knowledge on their opinions. I'm trying the natural route because of all of those fears. Up until now it's not brought me my rainbow but I also don't want my eggs pumped out at a crazy rate so I hit menopause at 40. I just want to get pg so I can move on from this stage. I'm so tired of it!
Ya if you can give me the RL info that would be amazing. Belleville doesn't have any real fertility clinics, we just get referred out. I have a couple friends that went through Ottawa and have had babies but they weren't getting pg at all. I can get pg just can't grow a healthy bean. Dh and I have a dd together so we can have kids.


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## LacePrincess

Ready, I sent you a PM with my info. :)

I will try to make it out to a PAIL meeting....good to know they're a regular thing. Weekdays are a zoo though with driving my dance kid around, so I'm not sure if I can make it until the holidays when he's off.  I hope we can still arrange to meet up for lunch or something sometime as we're so close!

Well if it makes you feel any better, my research says you really can't 'use up' your eggs faster if you do IVF or high dose stims. Your body prepares all of those follies every month anyways, and nature grows the best one to maturation. The stims are just supposed to grow ALL of the follies instead of just one. So in your natural cycle, all of those potential eggs are 'used up' every month anyways. No one really ever runs out of eggs anyhow, we just run out of good viable eggs. 

And we're like you, we've got proven fertility with each other. And I'm not complaining because I'm sooooo lucky to have my boys - all of which were conceived with DH. The frustrating part for us is, why did it used to work, and what the heck has changed in us so it doesn't work at all? It can't just be because of age. We're both just-turned 37. That is NOT old enough to explain 5 consecutive losses. So, wtf is going on, and no one can answer that so far.


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## ReadynWaiting

Honestly, I didn't even look In to the stims and what happens but the process just sound so unnatural. It may come back to trying that though as what I'm doing isn't working. I do everything right and healthy for my body (no gluten, sugar, dairy, caffeine, little alcohol), supplements, exercise, etc and it's not working. I had lower than normal AMH but my ND said it was fine and could be improved easily. I haven't retested and really if I have enough eggs that's not so much the issue as if there is a problem with my eggs. 
I would just really love to find a dr that wants to really get to the bottom of it and throw every test my way and the have the best laid plan at how to treat things. So far I haven't found that. My ND is amazing but she's also newer to practising hence why she's going to refer me out if no pg by dec. 
I do come to Kingston every so often to go to Costco so maybe we can make a plan around that?


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## LacePrincess

Ready - that would be great! Let me know next time you plan on being in town and we'll figure something out! 

I think for me I'm back to, I'm doing everything right. I just need to get lucky and catch a normal embie for once. I'm back to trying to shove all of this into the background of my life because I'm sick of this crap making me sad. 

We got our puppy today!! She's a shih-tzu mix (okay mostly shih-tzu), and what an ADORABLE pile of fluff. We wanted to name her something special to commemorate our latest loss, so we named her Asha, which depending on the indian/Sanskrit/Arabic translation can mean hope, desire, or wish. It is also a derivative of the Swahili name Aisha, which means Life. I thought that was very appropriate. :) 

Unfortunately, I had forgotten how much danged work puppies are LOL!!!


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## ReadynWaiting

A puppy is a great distraction...and a reminder what it will be like to have a new baby lol. I have a shih-poo and he was like a brown cotton ball when we got him. They are great dogs with great temperaments. I love the name too!!
I totally get the way you feel. I just want to feel normal and focus on normal things.


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## LacePrincess

ReadynWaiting said:


> A puppy is a great distraction...and a reminder what it will be like to have a new baby lol. I have a shih-poo and he was like a brown cotton ball when we got him. They are great dogs with great temperaments. I love the name too!!
> I totally get the way you feel. I just want to feel normal and focus on normal things.

Oh gosh, it is kind of like having a new baby AND a potty training toddler in one, LOL. Like years 0-3 fast forwarded. I'm so tired, LOL, I'd forgotten how much work puppies are. 

Asha's amazing. She is 100% cuddler and bonded to all of us so fast. If I move out of sight and she's napping on the floors somewhere, she will wake up just to move until she's in line of sight again, and go back to sleep. Her favourite napping place is by my side or behind my feet and she needs me so much. I adore her so much after only 2 days! :cloud9: I'll even forgive her accidents on my floors LOL.

I'm feeling more normal, back to dreading going back to appts again. I'm so quick to anger still though, my fuse is VERY short, but I guess hormones dropping and sleep deprivation this week is just killing any patience. 

I went to ballet class last weekend, and as I was leaving and putting away my stuff, some lady and her friend with a new baby were next to me. The lady was saying how she wanted another, but "what if she had twins again?" As in, that was the WORST thing she could imagine! Omg. I was thinking some EXTREMELY UNKIND things let me tell you.


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## ReadynWaiting

Puppies are the cutest but do require a lot of work! Like kids lol. 
I have a hard time being around people that are pg or have new babies that can't appreciate all that comes with it. I have a friend that is pg and knows the struggles we have had and I feel like she rubs it in my face that they are having a baby. I've actually stopped talking to her and hanging around as its been too hard. She doesn't seem to concerned about it so whatever. I have other friends that are just so cautious and concerned about mentioning anything baby so as not to upset me. Those friends I ask about their pregnancies or babies.


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## Sophie2015

Hi ladies. I've been lurking but would like to join in. First let me say how sorry I am for all your losses. There truly is no other pain, heartache, and frustration like RPL. I know it all too well. I've just completed my 5th recurrent loss as well. A little of my story....
Married right after I turned 41. Neither of us had kids. Got pregnant right away but discovered at my 8 week ultrasound the HB was 42 and baby measured more than a week behind. HB faded away but I never mc'd so had a D&C. Pregnant 2 months later but same story. Low HB and measuring more than a week behind at 8 week ultrasound. HB faded and I waited 7 weeks for a mc before finally taking Cytotec to induce. And then we couldn't get pregnant. My OB sent off thrombophilia labs and I have MTHFR and PAI-1 4g/4g. I saw 3 Drs and all said all I need was baby Asa and methyl folate to treat. I asked repeatedly about Lovenox and was told no. Nine months after the 2nd loss we saw an RE. All labs and tests on myself and DH were normal. RE was aware of my clotting studies and agreed I only needed baby Asa. So we moved forward. We did 2 rounds of clomid with IUI but my lining was too thin. We did 1 round of Femara with IUI and conceived. And it went well!! We were over the moon. And then I lost her. At 15 weeks. Genetics told us she was a girl and had Down Syndrome. A year later and many medicated cycles yielded no pregnancy. So we tried Follistim with IUI. And at 43 I shocked them all and over responded. Had 7-15 follicles! So they triggered me early and that resulted in a CP. Thirteen days later we conceived baby #5 with our 2nd Follistim IUI cycle. Great betas and P4 levels. HB at 6.2 weeks was 126. Twelve days later the HB was gone. Genetics told us he was a boy and had trisomy 15. I had a D&C as I've never mc'd on my own and I hemorrhaged. Lost over a pint of blood in 20 minutes. A week later I tried to hemorrhage again. And 4 days after that threw a clot and developed a pulmonary embolism and spent 4 days in the hospital. A hematologist was called in. And she said I NEVER should have been pregnant or ttc especially with estrogen increasing drugs without first being on Lovenox. She also said ivf could be fatal but that's our next step. We can't quit. But damn if I don't feel defeated. 
I'm also struggling with other people. Pregnancies. New babies. It's awful. People telling me it's going to work out for me just makes me angry. We've lost 5 babies in under 3 years. It doesn't feel like anything will ever be okay. Sigh. 
Anyway. Thank you for reading and letting me hijack your post. I understand what you are going through and my heart breaks for all of you.


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## Sophie2015

Oh and I too am thinking about getting a puppy. Sadly we lost our feline furbaby between losing baby #4 and #5. &#128533;


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## ReadynWaiting

Sophie-I'm so sorry for all of your heartache! How scary all that you have gone through. You will definitely make an amazing mama as you are already risking your life for your child's. I hemourraged with my 2nd d and c and it was the scariest thing ever. 
It drives me nuts the more stories I hear where Drs 'know' they are right or give misinformation based on their opinions. Hopefully now you have the info you need to get what you so want.


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## Sophie2015

Thank you ReadynWaiting. I hope so too. But I'm afraid this process has taken so long that I'm finally just too old.


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## ReadynWaiting

Will you start Ivf soon? Until your eggs are dried up there is still hope. I'm sure you def feel the time crunch though. I really hope the next step gets you your rainbow!


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## LacePrincess

Sophie - I'm so very sorry. I can feel the pain in your post, and I'm just so damned sorry for all you've gone through. :(


Ready - hehehe puppies are like, newborns and a potty training toddler all rolled into one, only they chew up your stuff too! (I lost my netbook charging cable today grrr!) But I love her so much, I think she's my heart dog, she's exactly what I needed - to have something really need me to love and take care of them. 

I too have lost friends who just don't get it, and never will, and are ridiculously fertile. I have this one ex-friend who got EVERYTHING they wanted as soon as they wanted it. They got pregnant immediately, and even got the genders in the order they wanted. I just.....I couldn't even talk to her, it was like we were in two different universes with no common language. The vast amount of things people like that take for granted, I just can't deal with it. It makes me so angry they aren't on their knees thanking their higher being EVERY MINUTE for how blessed they are, I can't.

I can't bear to even look at pregnant ladies, it hurts too much to feel like my body has broken and failed me and can never do what it was supposed to do. 

Oh well, I guess I'll just dress up my little shih-tzu puppy and resign myself to being the crazy little-dog lady, lol.


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## Sophie2015

Ready- we will start ivf with pgd as soon as my cycle restarts. This is the longest I've ever waited after a loss so getting a little worried. Still hoping we can start ivf in November though. 

Lace- I've lost all my friends. Including my BFF of 16 years. She was like my sister. But after my first loss she turned up pregnant without trying. She couldn't understand my grief or my difficulty with her pregnancy. She said I shut her out immediately after my D&C for that loss and only focused on myself. So she ended our friendship. 

It's such a hard lonely road. And people who haven't lived it just don't understand.


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## ReadynWaiting

Lace- you need to show us a pic of this sweet lil puppy!! 
We actually have a baby shower for the 'friend' who has been rubbing it in my face. They have a child already so not sure why they are having another shower but I just can't go. Another couple that will be their just had a baby that I don't think they truly appreciate but felt they needed to compete with other family. I just don't trust I won't say something. 
Sophie-I hate that a friend broke up with you because they don't understand loss and how it breaks our souls. I go to a support group and feel more connected to these women that I hardly know but I have seen the depths of their soul. We are sisters in loss and no one judges or treats you like an outcast. 
I'm always here to chat if you need someone to talk to or vent to.


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## Sophie2015

Ready- thank you so much. I have a niece (by marriage) who is pregnant. She is 21, unmarried, uneducated, unemployed, and super immature. Has no business having a baby. No father for the baby either. Her baby shower was recently. I couldn't go. I also didn't trust myself to keep my mouth shut. Plus I just can't be happy for her. 
And I agree, let's see this puppy!!


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## LacePrincess

Ok puppy!! I hope this works!










Update on the m/c: All the bleeding stopped a few days ago. Had my scan yesterday, very thorough tech, everything is all clear and looks like my right ovary has a measurable follie so I should be ovulating next week. Whoo!


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## ReadynWaiting

Omg so so cute!! Makes me want a puppy...but I'll hold off lol. 
Yay on the all clear too! It's such a relief when it's over and you can move forward.


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## LacePrincess

LOL Ready. The puppy has more than fulfilled my need to take care of a living thing 24/7....and not sleep enough......

Though a plus over an infant. You can shut a puppy in a cage and leave home, LOL!

I'm not sure trying again right away is the smartest thing to do, but I'll do it anyways. I'm sure if I asked my RE would tell me to wait at least a cycle (I think he thinks I'm waiting past Xmas) but I'm not gonna ask. ;) heh. But if I get a c/p this cycle I won't tell him either since he'd think I was an idiot.


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## ReadynWaiting

I've waited and not waited and it hasn't made a difference. There is no real reason to wait and personally I'm more fertile.


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## Sophie2015

Lace- exactly what Ready said. Wait, don't wait, doesn't affect your mc rate. Your body and egg is either ready or it isn't. I have never waited. Both my RE and OB agree it's fine to TTC right away. I've conceived immediately after 2 of my losses. FX'd for you!! 
And that puppy!! Such a cutie!!! I'm seriously thinking of getting one. Esp if my ivf fails. Our house is so empty now that our cat is gone.


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## LacePrincess

Thanks!! I guess there's this fear of the 'old' lining not being good enough to actually use, but I'm told that's a myth. I'm going to try as soon as I ovulate, but gonna try real hard to just leave it in the background again. 

Frankly I hate the m/c more for all the stupid medical management than even the m/c itself. I'm extremely phobic of bloodwork (not the needles - I have OCD and extreme phobia of catching pathogens so medical crap in general for me is really anxiety provoking) so I hate all the stupid followups more than the m/c itself almost. 

Ugh, I almost got away with not having to get my beta tested after the m/c but they caught up with me, lol. Drats. I would've thought a clear scan and bfn's on my hpt's would be good enough but noooooo......blah.

Sophie, you should get a dog! I dunno about puppy though, LOL. Frankly I hate the puppy stage it's such a pain (though obviously cute!!) but the housebreaking (shih-tzu's are infamously hard to housebreak) and now she just ate through my computer charging cable (AGAIN!!!). I really wanted a young dog past the puppy phase, but I couldn't find anything that was an acceptable breed and young enough (mostly huskies, rotties, pit mixes, old or neurotic dogs) at the rescues/shelters.


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## Sweetkat

Thought would pop in to say hello. Nothing much happening at this end. OH has been off his medication nearly 4 months and we are waiting for the results of another DNA fragmentation test (due any day now) before trying again.

If the fragmentation has gone down we will try in November, otherwise will wait for a bit longer to see if it goes down.

I am also seriously considering donor sperm, although that would be last resort.

Will update once we get the results.

Big hugs xxx


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## Sweetkat

OH's fragmentation has gone from
44% to 52% after 3.5 months of no medication and 2 months on anti oxidants :(. So now my options are 

- wait and see whether fragmentation improves (problem is there is a 2 week delay between the test and the result and a further delay before I would get pregnant, so even if it improves it could deteriorate again)

- try as is with about a 50/50 chance of miscarriage

- try ICSI with IMSI (which apparently helps but they have no way of selecting the non fragmented sperm)

- try donor IUI

My head is going to explode :(


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## ReadynWaiting

Oh sweet how frustrating! I know nothing about it to help but what did your dr say as far as improving?


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## Sweetkat

There is nothing that can be done to improve the fragmentation other than waiting and hoping or ICSI with IMSI.

One moment am set on donor IUI and next moment want to try again with OH (but really scared by the prospect of another MC).

How are you all doing ladies?


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## Sweetkat

LacePrincess said:


> Sweetkat, that's true. It would be worse if my body was rejecting healthy embryos. So I am glad that I'm pretty sure now it's not me, it's the embryos.
> 
> OTOH, why the F*^&$*% are we making so damned many aneuploids?!?!? WTF!
> 
> The timing is curious. I always seem to lose them at EXACTLY the same point, with the exception of the chemicals. Otherwise it's been, 6w, 6w3d, mmc measuring 6w3d, and this one measured 6w2d. Almost to the day they stop growing at 4.7mm or so. So what the heck is going on at that point of development that my embies never seem to be able to make it past?
> 
> I found this rather interesting article about how sperm damage causes miscarriage. Not a lot of suggestions on what to do, but it makes sense!!
> 
> 
> https://www.tommys.org/miscarriage-research-project-6-impact-damaged-sperm-miscarriage
> 
> Oh it does give me hope what your dr said, that even with DNA frag eventually it's possible to have a healthy baby, just.....how many losses will it take to get there, yk?

Just read the article again and it said DNA fragmentation doubles the risk of MC and also potentially leads to health problems with the baby (such as an increased risk of childhood leukaemia). So that makes me want to go do donor sperm :(


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## LacePrincess

Sweetkat said:


> Just read the article again and it said DNA fragmentation doubles the risk of MC and also potentially leads to health problems with the baby (such as an increased risk of childhood leukaemia). So that makes me want to go do donor sperm :(

Yeah me too......we're thinking about the idea. I'm the one getting squicked out though, not even DH. Go figure! I think, for us, if our last IVF doesn't work, or we keep losing them on our own, we'll just close the door at some point. I don't think I really want to try using donor sperm, especially since we already have kids. I'll just have to work on acceptance, I really think donor sperm is out of my comfort zone.

Now having said that, knowing when to stop is another question. I get the feeling we'll probably just keep trying until I'm too old to, with how stubborn I am, LMAO. We'll see. For now, we're trying with no treatments, just leaving the ttc in the background. No different then AF in terms of how I feel about it.......ok beginning of cycle, AF. Middle of cycle, BD a few times. And that's about it. I'm really trying to concentrate on other things in my life right now (my ballet again primarily).

Well I got my +OPK yesterday at least - after having EWCM for, like, 1.5 weeks, omg so tiresome. So at least my body didn't take TOO long to get back into gear. :)


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## Sweetkat

How are you doing ladies?

I am torn re what to do since latest fragmentation test came back at 52%. We had another consultation with a fertility/ assisted reproduction specialist and he said that DNA fragmentation can lead to miscarriage.

He said out of 10 attempts couples our age should have at least 4 good embryos. Well that is statistically. I have had 3 MCs. In the time I have been waiting (5 months) I could have had another 2 attempts roughly. But i am too scared to try because almost convinced everything will go wrong.

He said the only way to make sure there is no MC due to chromosomal issues is to have IVF with PGD testing, but it doesn't mean that I will actually get pregnant or that I don't miscarry for other reasons.

Do I try IVF? Torn.

Other option at the moment is to leave OH. I know I should stop going on about it, but for the first 3 years of our relationship he said he didn't want kids because he had 2 (he said that a year in after saying he did want kids). Then for 2 years he was off his medication but pulled out every time before coming. Two long years when I could have been pregnant and he chose not to. They he started his medication again and then we waited for a year before trying. Then had DD. And now 14 months of miscarriages/ waiting for his sperm to get better.

It's 8 years since we met and I just feel like at 36 I can't wait any longer. Am so angry at him and at myself :(


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## Sweetkat

A friend of mone (also 36) got pregnant 6 weeks into a new relationship. Now I am not advocating that and it was high risk for many reasons, but she hasn't had the pain of 3 MCs and she is happily pregnant and looking forward to a baby girl, whereas I have one DD and desperate for another and despite having a man for 8 years cannot have a child with him. Well after 3 McS and with 52% fragmentation I am in a trap :(

And OH is perfectly happy for me to wait. He has 3 kids (DD and 2 others), he doesn't really want any more, only because of me, and if we tried IVF and it failed he wouldn't care and I would be sooooooo unhappy. Maybe if I met another man and got him to have unprotected sex with me I might get my baby and minus the resentment I feel towards OH.

Literally every time I see him I am thinking, it's your fault i don't have a second baby and that I am unhappy and you can't love me if you messed me around re babies for this long :(


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## Sophie2015

Sweetkat- I'm so sorry you are struggling with this. I wish I had answers or even helpful words. Relationships and infertility are complicated alone without pairing them together. 
It sounds like the 2 of you aren't on the same page at all. At least with regards to you wanting another baby. I can't imagine how tough that must be. 
Any resolution since you last posted?


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## Sweetkat

Sophie2015 said:


> Sweetkat- I'm so sorry you are struggling with this. I wish I had answers or even helpful words. Relationships and infertility are complicated alone without pairing them together.
> It sounds like the 2 of you aren't on the same page at all. At least with regards to you wanting another baby. I can't imagine how tough that must be.
> Any resolution since you last posted?

I have been researching IVF with PGD and funnily enough was just reading your thread in assisted conception. I think that it increases the chances of success a lot and yours will hopefully go well.

I am torn because some days I think I just have bad eggs. Some people give birth naturally no problem at over 40 whereas all my MCs started at 35 (and I literally was 35 and 2 weeks when I fell pregnant which turned into first MC). Other days I think the sperm fragmentation isn't helping. Although the last MC was definitely due to bad eggs - trisomy 21.

Today I am leaning towards IVF with PGD and will be following your thread closely. Best of luck :)


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## Sophie2015

Sweetkat- I wish you the best as well. One of my losses was T21 as well. Heartbreaking. I think your chances are excellent with IVF/PGD. I'm 44 now. (My losses all started at 41). So if my IVF experience doesn't go well don't let that discourage you. I'm betting you have lots of eggs left. And more importantly lots of good eggs. The more you have the greater the odds of finding a normal fertilized one. 
Have you told OH that's the direction you want to go? Due to his fragmentation issues have you considered donor sperm?


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## Heres_to_hope

Im sorry. This process is so draining and confusing. Its almost as if there is no point to happiness or hope until 20wks.


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## Sweetkat

Sophie, so sorry about the loss of your embryos. Will you carry on trying naturally?

I fall pregnant really easily and we have had unprotected sex around ovulation time. I guess I might as well try properly this cycle and if I have another MC will go to IVF (we haven't tried at all since my last MMC in June).

I am seriously considering donor sperm, as my OH's sperm has not been good recently :(

How are you all going ladies?


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## Sophie2015

Hi Sweetkat- We will TTC naturally but we aren't expecting to conceive and if we do will expect to mc due to my assumed egg quality issue. Sadly I'm thinking the only thing I'll ever get to mother is a pet. Our beloved cat died a week after we lost baby #4 this year and as I'm fairly certain no other cat will ever measure up to her we are thinking of getting a puppy. 
How does your OH feel about donor sperm?


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## Sweetkat

OH doesn't want me to have another MC but I don't think he is at donor sperm stage yet.

My friend gave birth at 43 after 3 losses. So anything is possible and I am keeping fingers crossed for all of us.

Still it's a shit place to be :(


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## Sophie2015

Yeah I lost all 5 of mine between the ages 41-43. I turned 44 in September. Then our embryos died 2 days ago at day 6. I think at this point our odds of winning the lottery are greater than conceiving a healthy baby. It's a total shit place to be. I hope it works out for you!! You don't have any do you?


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## Sophie2015

Yeah I lost all 5 of mine between the ages 41-43. I turned 44 in September. Then our embryos died 2 days ago at day 6. I think at this point our odds of winning the lottery are greater than conceiving a healthy baby. It's a total shit place to be. I hope it works out for you!! You don't have any do you?


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## Sweetkat

I have one DD who is 3. Conceived with the same partner but when he was off medication (so possibly his sperm was less fragmented or we were just lucky). 

Actually I think the odds are always quite good despite repeated losses - about 50% -75%, I guess most ppl just give up after a few losses.


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## Sophie2015

It's not so much my consecutive losses that steals my hope. It's my age. &#128533;


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## Sweetkat

Sophie I think you have every chance of having a baby. I really do :). It's just draining emitionally going through losses and it's hard to believe a rainbow is out there, but you are getting pregnant and all it takes is one good egg!!!


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## stemalia20

Words can't express... day before Thanksgiving I lost my daughter at 29 weeks and 1 day. Ive had 2 prior miscarriages. It never gets easier. It's been really hard coping with this and i know all it takes is time. Nothing anyone can do or say will help, it's all within yourself when ever you can find it within yourself. I am still trying my hardest to be ok but really most days are hard to even wake up to. My daughter's name was Rowyn Kaye and shes such a beautiful little angel.


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## Sweetkat

Please keep your fingers crossed for me - pregnant again with OH's dodgy sperm. His latest fragmentation results are 49% (so zero improvement) and I am 4&2 today.

This is my last attempt with OH / if this doesn't work out I am leaving him (for those of you that remember he has 2 other children and we have a DD and he didn't want children for the first 4 years of our relationship). Well he said yes then no then yes then no, and we had to wait a whole 11 months after that for him to stop taking his medicine. This time he stopped medicine for 6 months but fragmentation didn't improve at all :(


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## Sweetkat

My pregnancy turned into a chemical. Got bfp 23 December (period was due 24th). It was only a very faint line on a first response. Before that first response showed negatives. And then got my period 27th. The good thing is was only 4 days and not 2 months. The weird thing is why did it happen (I am blaming OH's sperm fragmentation).


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## Sophie2015

Sweetkat- I'm so sorry but having lost 7 total (5 mc's and 2 embies) I can honestly say my 4th loss(my only chemical which lasted 5.5 weeks) was the easiest for so many reasons. My RE says chemicals are usually due to a genetic problem although I know many women who have a P4 deficiency that causes them. Regardless I'm so sorry for your loss. It hurts even if you had only been pregnant an hour. It's the same loss. 
Are you still planning to leave OH? What was his response to this loss?


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## Sweetkat

Sophie, thank you so much for your response. In a way I don't feel like I ever was pregnant because the line was so faint (although definitely there) and only for a day. To be fair I didn't test at all for 3 days and then got my period on the 4th day.

I was all over the place since having unprotected sex, because was terrified of another MC and a week after having the unprotected sex his fragmentation came back as 49%.

An article I found says that high fragmentation more than doubles the risk of miscarriage, which makes it sth like 60-70% instead of the normal 20% at my age and it's just awful having a positive result and thinking that an Mc is almost inevitable.
OH is back on his medication now too, so if anything the fragmentation will now get worse. He hasn't said a word when I said test was positive and nothing at all when said got my period.

A few months ago he said maybe we shd just have one child together. But that's so selfish as he already has 2 others!!!! I feel that maybe leaving him is the only way to save myself from this MC hell and have a baby.
Are you decided on IVF with DE or own eggs? I would try own eggs if I were you, because in a year or so (or even 2 or 3 years) you could have DE IVF? Is there a cut off point in terms of age?
Big hugs xxx


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## Sophie2015

Sweetkat- I have not decided yet. I'm not sure I'll ever be able to decide! But I'm too old now after years of mc's to try with my own eggs and THEN try DE IVF. Time just isn't on my side. 
I'm so sorry about your trouble with OH. It's so difficult to deal with loss and infertility but I can't imagine how much harder it is when your other half just isn't on the same page as you. Big hugs to you too!!!


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## Sweetkat

How are you doing girls? Any updates from anyone?

We only tried once since chemical in December and bfn. Now torn re whether to do IVF with ICSI with IMSI with PGD or try naturally. Have actually had pre IVF tests (ovarian reserve near optimal, womb all fine) and yesterday called clinic to start IVF medication on day 14 of cycle (now day 2) but so torn whether ivf would work and whether it might work naturally.

Help :)


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## Sophie2015

Sweetkat- I wish I had answers for you. If there's a genetic issue with the embryos causing the CPs that can be tested for prior to transfer I'd def do PGD. Good luck to you!!


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