# Unassisted (Free) Birth



## stella123

Hi girls. I've just watched a really interesting documentary on unassisted childbirth, where women will voluntarily choose to give birth without a medical professional.
I have quite a few opinions on it, arguments for both sides, anyone fancy a bit of a deliberation/debate about it? Would be interesting to hear fors and againsts, and if anyone knows of anyone who has had an unassisted birth?

In case you all want to watch the doc, it's on youtube under Outlaw Births - apparently was on FIVE (UK) 2 years ago xx


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## lozzy21

For me it would be way to risky. You can have midwifes present with them just be there in case of emergancys.


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## KandyKinz

I am all for home births but unassisted births make me very nervous! 

For my last birth, I had actually considered a free birth as there were no midwives catering to my area and I desperately wanted to avoid hospitals at all costs... I however decided I did not want to risk the life of myself or my baby so I chose to succumb to the medical birthing system with my own rules in place. I did not have a happy OB but I did have a lovely birth experience despite the icky environment in which I was in.

While I do have great respect for the normalcy of pregnancy and birth and know that the majority of births do result with no complications if you just "let them be." I also know first hand that when things go bad they go bad really fast. Post partum hemorrhages happen fast and women can bleed a hell of a lot in a very short period of time if it is not managed properly. Even if you have studied obstetrical emergency skills throroughly and somehow managed to get your hands on some oxytocin, hemabate or ergot how are you going to treat yourself when your lying there unconscious bleeding to death. And I could just imagine how difficult it would be to manage a shoulder dystocia on your own. 

I guess it would be ok, if you had a very supportive partner or friend willing to be with your during your birth who is willing and eager to learn obstetrical emergency skills.... in detail..... but I'd still be weary.....


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## Sophist

I know several people who have done this successfully, some planned, others not. I'm not sure what I think about it--I don't think its for me.


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## Eskimobabys

i wouldnt do it like kandykinz says that when things go bad they go bad quick!


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## kiwimama

As much as I believe that labour and birth are normal and natural, this is going too far for my liking. Every woman can labour and birth in her own way but for me I would need to have a fully trained and experienced midwife with me during my birth. I know the vast majority of births can be done naturally and end with a happy and healthy mum and bub but there are the odd few that aren't without some medical help and there is no way I would risk my baby by doing it without any midwife. Like most woman I go "into myself" and zone out while in labour and I know I wouldn't be able to judge whether I or my baby were starting to get into trouble. Ideally with my next birth I would like to be at home, with a midwife who is generally hands off (unless I ask otherwise!) and my OH delivering our baby with the midwife telling him what to do to guide our baby out. I love the thought of me and my OH being the first people in the whole world to touch our baby rather the midwife.


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## KandyKinz

I knew one woman who had a semi-unassited birth with the midwife in the house, which seemed to me like a very happy medium. Essentially, at her request, the woman and her husband stayed in their room and laboured and birthed on their own while the midwife stayed in the living room just an earshot away in case she was needed. She was never needed. 

The main problem I would see from that is that it may be hard for the midwife to agree liability wise.... If anything goes wrong she would be the one attending and would be "at fault." She'd have to agree to accept responsibility for a birth she herself wouldn't be "managing"


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## stella123

I think there's possibly a lot of legality matters, and maybe a debate on the human rights of the child getting the best healthy start. I agree that it is a bit too risky. 

As you can see here, a woman has an ocean birth. At first I watched it and was like "Wow, so natural, look how the baby intuitively swims. And then my critical side creeped in "Good god, it could bang it's head on those rocks/I know the high salt in the water would kill most infection, but that's quite a risk to take"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBoc7dFvXkk&feature=player_embedded


I myself have not had children yet, but have worked as a doula and done work experience as a midwife and starting my midwifery course in 2 years once I've managed to save a bit more money - so I am unaware of how you feel mentally during labour, but I think going this far is perhaps too risky for mother and child?


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## winegums

exactly when you opt for a freebirth you can still phone the midwives and they will come to the house and will either stay out of your way with a cup of tea until/if you need them or they can observe you and let you know if they think there are any problems and offer to help

before midwives where around millions and millions of people gave birth themselves all over the world, people still do it in tribes etc.

sure there will be neonatal and maternal deaths but there are with midwives present too, some people would rather let nature take its course (whether good or bad) than have some stranger intervene!

what about jehovas witnesses refusing blood even if they're dying!


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## winegums

stella123 said:


> I think there's possibly a lot of legality matters, and maybe a debate on the human rights of the child getting the best healthy start. I agree that it is a bit too risky.
> 
> As you can see here, a woman has an ocean birth. At first I watched it and was like "Wow, so natural, look how the baby intuitively swims. And then my critical side creeped in "Good god, it could bang it's head on those rocks/I know the high salt in the water would kill most infection, but that's quite a risk to take"
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBoc7dFvXkk&feature=player_embedded
> 
> 
> I myself have not had children yet, but have worked as a doula and done work experience as a midwife and starting my midwifery course in 2 years once I've managed to save a bit more money - so I am unaware of how you feel mentally during labour, but I think going this far is perhaps too risky for mother and child?

saltwater is great for wounds and doesn't cause infection? many people in other countries go into the sea to give birth alone


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## summer rain

Hi

for me it would be too scary; last time although the midwives arrived in the nick of time; the cord was around his neck and he had both hands on his face; it took a very delicate manouvre to sort that out. There are some developing countries where most women were giving birth without a midwife or with untrained birth assistants/relatives only and the maternal and infant mortality rates were reduced dramatically when they started training midwives to attend births; even if it was out in the open or in very primitive conditions.

Soph x


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## JenStar1976

I'm not sure why you'd take the risk personally? You can opt to have a home birth and have minimal intervention (which I had), which would give you the feeling of an unassisted birth but with the reassurance that medical help is on hand if needed. I had an examination when the midwives first turned up and I was never touched after that until I needed to be stitched (they also did the clamping of the cord, but OH cut it - I consider it to be quite minimal contact myself compared to what some other mums experience in hospital). That's the other thing - if you tore really badly, you'd have to get someone out to do the stitching - there's only so much you can do on your own! x


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## KandyKinz

stella123 said:


> I think there's possibly a lot of legality matters, and maybe a debate on the human rights of the child getting the best healthy start. I agree that it is a bit too risky.
> 
> As you can see here, a woman has an ocean birth. At first I watched it and was like "Wow, so natural, look how the baby intuitively swims. And then my critical side creeped in "Good god, it could bang it's head on those rocks/I know the high salt in the water would kill most infection, but that's quite a risk to take"
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBoc7dFvXkk&feature=player_embedded
> 
> 
> I myself have not had children yet, but have worked as a doula and done work experience as a midwife and starting my midwifery course in 2 years once I've managed to save a bit more money - so I am unaware of how you feel mentally during labour, but I think going this far is perhaps too risky for mother and child?


While the idea of a ocean birth does sound absolutely beautiful and majestic (in the presence of a trained care provider....) I would be TERRIFIED that the blood would attract SHARKS!!!!!

:shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:


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## Celesse

With a level head I think noway. But there have been times where I think that if the midwife was unavailable or unwilling I would stay at home and self monitor.


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## lozzy21

The infant and maternal death rated went down dramaticly when people started having trained midwifes there for me that is reason alone to have a midwife there.


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## Eskimobabys

KandyKinz said:


> stella123 said:
> 
> 
> I think there's possibly a lot of legality matters, and maybe a debate on the human rights of the child getting the best healthy start. I agree that it is a bit too risky.
> 
> As you can see here, a woman has an ocean birth. At first I watched it and was like "Wow, so natural, look how the baby intuitively swims. And then my critical side creeped in "Good god, it could bang it's head on those rocks/I know the high salt in the water would kill most infection, but that's quite a risk to take"
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBoc7dFvXkk&feature=player_embedded
> 
> 
> I myself have not had children yet, but have worked as a doula and done work experience as a midwife and starting my midwifery course in 2 years once I've managed to save a bit more money - so I am unaware of how you feel mentally during labour, but I think going this far is perhaps too risky for mother and child?
> 
> 
> While the idea of a ocean birth does sound absolutely beautiful and majestic (in the presence of a trained care provider....) I would be TERRIFIED that the blood would attract SHARKS!!!!!
> 
> :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:Click to expand...

no sharks she's in place where sharks wont come i forget what its called but i saw it on tv


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## winegums

lozzy21 said:


> The infant and maternal death rated went down dramaticly when people started having trained midwifes there for me that is reason alone to have a midwife there.

yeh but that's the point even when having a freebirth you can have a trained midwife in the room, just not doing anything. Midwives are skilled enough to be able to tell if there are problems without touching and feeling constantly, and can give help and advice rather than actually doing anything


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## Rachiebaby24

i would consider this if I knew CPR


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## winegums

lozzy21 said:


> The infant and maternal death rated went down dramaticly when people started having trained midwifes there for me that is reason alone to have a midwife there.

also the death rate may have gone down but there are other factors such as more education on prenatal health, complications etc

nowadays with all the information available to women it is easy to realise when there is a problem and do something about it.


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## lozzy21

winegums said:


> lozzy21 said:
> 
> 
> The infant and maternal death rated went down dramaticly when people started having trained midwifes there for me that is reason alone to have a midwife there.
> 
> yeh but that's the point even when having a freebirth you can have a trained midwife in the room, just not doing anything. Midwives are skilled enough to be able to tell if there are problems without touching and feeling constantly, and can give help and advice rather than actually doing anythingClick to expand...

But freebirthing is not having any medical help there.


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## KandyKinz

I agree that it's not a true "freebirth" if medical assistance is present in any way. It's more like a pseudo free birth.


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## Jetters

I was in the documentary you watched- Outlaw Births. My ex partner Clair is the british one who gave birth at home with just me there and I caught our son. :)


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## winegums

KandyKinz said:


> I agree that it's not a true "freebirth" if medical assistance is present in any way. It's more like a pseudo free birth.

a freebirth is an unnassisted birth. therefore if a midwife is present but not assisting it is still a freebirth. if at some point there is complications and a midwife has to intervene it then is not considered freebirth anymore


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## lozzy21

If a midwife is presant it is not classed as a freebirth wether she intervines or not.


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## KandyKinz

I guess individual definitions vary... I still don't consider it a free birth if assistance is readily available.


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## KandyKinz

Guess we have to seperate this thread into two seperate sections... Free Birth with Midwives and Free Births Without


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## lozzy21

> In its most basic sense, unassisted childbirth means giving birth at home without the aid of doctors or midwives

Taken from https://www.unassistedchildbirth.com/uc/whatisuc.html


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## stella123

Jetters said:


> I was in the documentary you watched- Outlaw Births. My ex partner Clair is the british one who gave birth at home with just me there and I caught our son. :)

I saw your bit! I remember her shouting "I'm scared, I'm scared" and then the pure happiness on her face afterwards when she realised she'd done it. 
Must have taken guts on your half, lots of responsibilty incase anything did happen to go wrong!

Your status says you're pregnant now - would you consider it for this birth or any future ones?x


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## billy2mm

stella123 said:


> Jetters said:
> 
> 
> I was in the documentary you watched- Outlaw Births. My ex partner Clair is the british one who gave birth at home with just me there and I caught our son. :)
> 
> I saw your bit! I remember her shouting "I'm scared, I'm scared" and then the pure happiness on her face afterwards when she realised she'd done it.
> Must have taken guts on your half, lots of responsibilty incase anything did happen to go wrong!
> 
> Your status says you're pregnant now - would you consider it for this birth or any future ones?xClick to expand...

i remember watching this when it first aired!! wow you are brave!!!


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## Jetters

Thanks! I've got a heart condition so even a homebirth isn't a possibility for me- however i've got to say I wouldn't do it! That seems hypocritical, I know, since Rory's birth was the best day of my life, but I only did it for Clair- it was HER choice. My heart was in my throat for every step of it and I don't think she realised till afterwards how much pressure she'd put me under. I was fricking terrified. 

That said... there were a few things that the documentary didn't touch on- such as the fact that she was a neonatal nurse, we'd both done a long st johns birth/first aid course, and our local hospital was a 4 min drive away- I think those things do make a difference. And the fact that it was her third baby helped too, as she trusted her body more than a first time mum would iykwim? In our case it was definitely an informed decision and the right one for us. 


As for the definition of freebirth- it really doesn't matter so much- but for the record our midwife had wanted to be there with us as a friend, NOT to assist, but she was threatened with her job if she was there for the birth- assisting or not. So obviously she couldn't be there. The legalties and red tape is crazy.


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## billy2mm

Jetters said:


> Thanks! I've got a heart condition so even a homebirth isn't a possibility for me- however i've got to say I wouldn't do it! That seems hypocritical, I know, since Rory's birth was the best day of my life, but I only did it for Clair- it was HER choice. My heart was in my throat for every step of it and I don't think she realised till afterwards how much pressure she'd put me under. I was fricking terrified.
> 
> That said... there were a few things that the documentary didn't touch on- such as the fact that she was a neonatal nurse, we'd both done a long st johns birth/first aid course, and our local hospital was a 4 min drive away- I think those things do make a difference. And the fact that it was her third baby helped too, as she trusted her body more than a first time mum would iykwim? In our case it was definitely an informed decision and the right one for us.
> 
> 
> As for the definition of freebirth- it really doesn't matter so much- but for the record our midwife had wanted to be there with us as a friend, NOT to assist, but she was threatened with her job if she was there for the birth- assisting or not. So obviously she couldn't be there. The legalties and red tape is crazy.

thats insane!!!! surely if they were that worried about clair and the baby's health they would have encouraged the mw to be there just in case in the friendly capacity!!

also having the hospital so close by and the experience in the neonatal wards makes a huge difference to the decision making process. the documentary kind of made out that clair was a nurse in general (not paeds specific iygwim) and that the only couse you guys did was the baby resus one shown on the show!


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## winegums

well i guess there is no set definition but most midwives class it a freebirth when they attend until they intervene which is when they stop classing it as a freebirth


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## marley2580

winegums said:


> before midwives where around millions and millions of people gave birth themselves all over the world, people still do it in tribes etc.

Not true, there have been midwives around, in one form or another, for a very long time. People used to go and fetch the midwife or an experienced female relative https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midwives

Freebirth is not something I ever considered as I feel it would be taking silly risks with both my and my child's life. Something that really stuck with me after my first birth (em-CS) was someone that my mum knew from Africa said that if I had been in Africa I would have been left until I died at which point they would have tried to get the baby out.


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## Blah11

Oh not a good idea IMO. I don't think there's any reason to do this really. We're bloody lucky to have health care professionals over here. If you want to have a natural home birth then thats fine, a MW sitting in the corner wont really ruin your birthing experience :shrug:


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## Blah11

winegums said:


> KandyKinz said:
> 
> 
> I agree that it's not a true "freebirth" if medical assistance is present in any way. It's more like a pseudo free birth.
> 
> a freebirth is an unnassisted birth. therefore if a midwife is present but not assisting it is still a freebirth. if at some point there is complications and a midwife has to intervene it then is not considered freebirth anymoreClick to expand...

Yeah.. a lot of women deliver without having any assistance :shrug: I laboured on my own and I pushed on my own. The MWs didnt touch me or anything except for checking the cord wasnt round her neck (it wasn't) and I lifted her up once she had been born.


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## winegums

marley2580 said:


> winegums said:
> 
> 
> before midwives where around millions and millions of people gave birth themselves all over the world, people still do it in tribes etc.
> 
> Not true, there have been midwives around, in one form or another, for a very long time. People used to go and fetch the midwife or an experienced female relative https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midwives
> 
> Freebirth is not something I ever considered as I feel it would be taking silly risks with both my and my child's life. Something that really stuck with me after my first birth (em-CS) was someone that my mum knew from Africa said that if I had been in Africa I would have been left until I died at which point they would have tried to get the baby out.Click to expand...

you shouldnt base wiki on truth lol but anyway without even reading it it may be true HOWEVER there has been a time before midwives in any form were around and MANY women still choose to birth on their own


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## lozzy21

I think having an unnassisted birth is a slap in the face to all the women and babys who have died but could have been saved with simple medical help. Retained placenta leading to hemorage or infection. Babys being stillborn when they could have been saved with an emergancy section.

Some women would kill for the medical help we have.


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## winegums

lozzy i think that's an unfair statement! do you think people choosing c sections and hospital births are a slap in the face for those who have had to have interventions which ended up killing their baby? because its more common than everyone thinks


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## lozzy21

How is it unfair? Its my views on the subject.


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## Jetters

lozzy21 said:


> I think having an unnassisted birth is a slap in the face to all the women and babys who have died but could have been saved with simple medical help. Retained placenta leading to hemorage or infection. Babys being stillborn when they could have been saved with an emergancy section.
> 
> Some women would kill for the medical help we have.


...And I think that's a sweeping judgement, offensive to those who have made that CHOICE. Key word there being of course choice... how is choosing how YOU want to have YOUR child a slap in the face to those women?! Bearing in mind too Retained placenta, stillborn babies etc happen EVERYWHERE- in hospitals, at home, in every country.


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## lozzy21

The OP asked for my views on the subject so i gave it. Yes those problems happen everywhere but the rates are higher in the 3rd world where they have no access to trained medical profesionals or medication.


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## winegums

but lozzy most places in the 3rd world DO have midwives however they are not always great midwives and often push for things like sections which cost them countries a lot of money and leave the women open to infections etc etc

even in 3rd world countries some women still CHOOSE to give birth on their own


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## ChloesMummy

I came accross this story the other day, really sad, it is described as homebirth but sounds more along the lines of freebirth. The parents took it to the extreme.
*Upsetting* 
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uk...er-mother-told-midwives-not-to-interfere.html


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## Jetters

You can give your opinion without being offensive you know! I've just said we chose to freebirth and you then say "well I think you're [anyone who chooses a freebirth- not just third worls women!] a slap in the face to women who've lost babies". 

*shakes head*


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## lozzy21

winegums said:


> but lozzy most places in the 3rd world DO have midwives however they are not always great midwives and often push for things like sections which cost them countries a lot of money and leave the women open to infections etc etc
> 
> even in 3rd world countries some women still CHOOSE to give birth on their own

But most of the people who live in 3rd world countrys cant afford medical care. They will leave it till the last min before taking them to the hospital and most of the time its too late.


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## Jetters

ChloesMummy said:


> I came accross this story the other day, really sad, it is described as homebirth but sounds more along the lines of freebirth. The parents took it to the extreme.
> *Upsetting*
> https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uk...er-mother-told-midwives-not-to-interfere.html

That is a sad story, but it's 6 years old and there will ALWAYS be extreme cases about every aspect of childbirth. That tragedy didn't happen because they freebirthed, it happened because they ignored MASSIVE risks.


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## aob1013

It's not for me, i would feel very irresponsible, and if anything happened, it WOULD be my fault.


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## winegums

what i dont get is that the death rates of mothers and babys went up literally as soon as birth became more medicalised. women were advised to go to hospital and give birth even though a hospital is for people ill or in trouble?! and then hospital became normal....... but before that when everyone gave birth at home MANY women had to go it alone and STILL the death rates went up when they started getting them to go to hospitals and give birth there instead......... so obviously there must be something to this


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## trumpetbum

A freebirth isn't for me but I do understand why some people opt for this. I have come across women who freebirthed ( I was a member od a super crunchy forum back when I was pregnant with dd2) and they generally put a great deal of research, thought and planning into the process.
I don't know that I could call them irresponsible considering how informed and well planned most of their births were. I know of one who transferred for a section on the strength of both her intuition and the signs that she was prepared for. It's hard to generalise as their reasons were very varied, from religious beliefs to a lack of options in their area other than a very medicalised system, some had antenatal care, some had scans, some had nothing. A very mixed bag.
Given the choice between some of the 'healthcare' options some were facing or an informed unassisted birth, I think I might have taken my chances with the freebirth, but i'm not in that situation so can't say for sure. 
I consider myself very lucky to have access to a good, skilled homebirth team in my area. I think that the support of a trained midwife who will not jump in unnecessarily is the optimum in birth safety. However, last time around I was ready to be told there were no midwives available at the last minute and I had prepared to stick to my guns and stay at home. Was I not then essentially prepared, like many others, to have an unassisted birth rather than be forced into hospital? 
Maybe I simply don't want to have the kneejerk reaction to all unassisted birth that so many people have when I mention homebirth.

How's that for a waffle :lol:


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## marley2580

winegums said:


> what i dont get is that the death rates of mothers and babys went up literally as soon as birth became more medicalised. women were advised to go to hospital and give birth even though a hospital is for people ill or in trouble?! and then hospital became normal....... but before that when everyone gave birth at home MANY women had to go it alone and STILL the death rates went up when they started getting them to go to hospitals and give birth there instead......... so obviously there must be something to this

Wiki is actually quite well referenced. 

The death rates went up because in the 1800s male doctors started to take over from MWs, women gave birth under anaesthetic etc. All this was before they knew about cleanliness and cross contamination, so women and babies were being infected by drs and nurses. The rise of hospital births is directly linked to feminism and the power that men have/had


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## Drazic<3

Freebirthing would not be for me. I, personally, would feel if anything avoidable went wrong, her life would be on my conscience forever. Also, I am not really bothered what they do to me as long as she gets safely in the world. Yes, things can happen at hospital, but you are protected by knowledge, experience and healthcare in a way I feel I wouldn't freebirthing. 

My foster sister had a freebirth at home with her Mum due to a horrible hospital experience. I all but begged her not to, or to let the midwife in, but she wouldn't. She was even getting calls threatening her with legal or social services action. She had a healthy baby boy at home with virtually no pain and no complications. However beautiful that is, I can't help but feel it's more luck than judgement. When healthcare is available, I don't understand why you would ignore it.


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## booflebump

Like Drazic, I couldnt live with it on my conscience should anything happen. No matter how well prepared/read/researched/low risk you are, if things go wrong, they can go wrong very quickly and you need to have someone who can not only save the babies life, but your life if needs be x


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## winegums

marley2580 said:


> winegums said:
> 
> 
> what i dont get is that the death rates of mothers and babys went up literally as soon as birth became more medicalised. women were advised to go to hospital and give birth even though a hospital is for people ill or in trouble?! and then hospital became normal....... but before that when everyone gave birth at home MANY women had to go it alone and STILL the death rates went up when they started getting them to go to hospitals and give birth there instead......... so obviously there must be something to this
> 
> Wiki is actually quite well referenced.
> 
> The death rates went up because in the 1800s male doctors started to take over from MWs, women gave birth under anaesthetic etc. All this was before they knew about cleanliness and cross contamination, so women and babies were being infected by drs and nurses. The rise of hospital births is directly linked to feminism and the power that men have/hadClick to expand...

Wiki? the website your not meant to use for any actual research because any old tom dick and harry can go on and write what they like?!


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## marley2580

Sorry, I meant this article - below are the references



> References
> 
> ^ "Midwife". Dictionary.com.
> ^ Epstein, Abby. "The Business of Being Born (film)" (in English). Retrieved 2009-10-30.
> ^ Wagner, Marsden. Welcoming Baby, or Not: Are men, machines, and hospitals really necessary for a healthy childbirth? American Sexuality Magazine. Accessed 3-27-07.
> ^ "Definition of the Midwife".
> ^ "The Newsletter of The Partnership for Maternal, Newborn & Child Health". January 2006.
> ^ Jean Towler and Joan Bramall, Midwives in History and Society (London: Croom Helm, 1986), p. 9
> ^ Rebecca Flemming, Medicine and the Making of Roman Women (Oxford: Oxford University Press, 2000), p. 359
> ^ a b c d e f Valerie French, &#8220;Midwives and Maternity Care in the Roman World&#8221; (Helios, New Series 12(2), 1986), pp. 69-84
> ^ a b c d e Ralph Jackson, Doctors and Diseases in the Roman Empire (Norman: University of Oklahoma Press, 1988), p. 97
> ^ Rebecca Flemming, Medicine and the Making of Roman Women (Oxford: Oxford University Press, 2000), pp. 421-424
> ^ Towler and Bramall, p.12
> ^ "Midwives". Catholic Encyclopedia. New York: Robert Appleton Company. 1913.
> ^ Barlow,Y: "Quick, Boil Some Water", p3, Bookline and Thinker Ltd., 2007
> ^ Gunnar Heinsohn/Otto Steiger: "Witchcraft, Population Catastrophe and Economic Crisis in Renaissance Europe: An Alternative Macroeconomic Explannation.", University of Bremen 2004 (download); Gunnar Heinsohn/Otto Steiger: "The Elimination of Medieval Birth Control and the Witch Trials of Modern Times", International Journal of Women's Studies, 3, May 1982, 193-214; Gunnar Heinsohn/Otto Steiger: "Birth Control: The Political-Economic Rationale Behind Jean Bodin's "Démonomanie"", in: History of Political Economy, 31, No. 3, 423-448
> ^ see John M. Riddle: "The Great Witch-Hunt and the Suppression of Birth Control: Heinsohn and Steiger's Theory from the Perspective of an Historian", Appendix to: Gunnar Heinsohn/Otto Steiger: "Witchcraft, Population Catastrophe and Economic Crisis in Renaissance Europe: An Alternative Macroeconomic Explanation.", University of Bremen 2004 (download); also see John M. Riddle: Eve's Herbs: A History of Contraception and Abortion in the West, Princeton: Harvard University Press 1999, ISBN 0-674-27026-6, esp. Chapters 5-7
> ^ Frontier School
> ^ "Midwives Model of Care".
> ^ "North American Registry of Midwives".
> ^ "Financial support for students on pre-registration midwifery courses". National Health Service, UK. Retrieved June 23, 2010.
> ^ Threat to Independent Midwifery (BBC News)
> ^ Radical Midwives
> ^ Midwifery Universities in the UK
> ^ Schroff, F (1997) The New Midwifery.
> ^ www.midwifery.ubc.ca
> ^ www.cmrc.ca
> ^ New Zealand Health Information Service: "Report on Maternity - Maternal and Newborn Information 2003."
> ^ [1], Dutch website of CBS, Central Bureau of Statistics
> ^ [2], Dutch website of the University Medical Center Groningen midwifery clinic
> ^ [3], Dutch website of a typical Dutch midwifery practice
> ^ [4], Dutch website on preconceptional care
> ^ [5], Dutch website on midwifery
> ^ [6], Dutch website of CVZ, College for Healthcare Insurances
> ^ "Japanese Midwives Association" (in Japanese).
> ^ [7], PBS documentary Birth of a Surgeon

Besides, it's something that I've come across in various different reading. It was just easiest to link to Wiki.


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## trumpetbum

I think the thing with Wiki is basically that if you decide to use anything on there you then have to check the references which can be time consuming, and even if it has a crapload of references, the assumptions and views formed via those references may ignore huge parts of that research, be poorly balanced or outright misleading and since the actual Wiki article is not peer reviewed there is no way of knowing if it is a good source of information unless you personally review all of it's supporting references. It can however be a good starting point for finding evidence in a particular field but i'd never personally use it as evidence to support a point. Jmho though.


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## KandyKinz

lol I keep hearing that none of you want a midwife to touch them while in labour when all I can think about is that my midwife better be damn well prepared for hours and hours of counterpressure and double hip squeezes!!!!!!!!


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## marley2580

Sorry this is now totally OT but other sources to prove that midwives have been around for a very very long time:

https://www.studentmidwife.net/educ...tory-43/662-a-brief-history-of-midwifery.html
https://www.nursing.manchester.ac.uk/ukchnm/midwives/officeofmidwife.pdf
https://www3.utsouthwestern.edu/midwifery/mdwfhistory.html
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id...CTgU#v=onepage&q=history of midwifery&f=false


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## trumpetbum

Another totally OT but if anyone is actually interested in this subject, one of my favourite books is The red tent. Totally fictional but a fab read. 
In terms of midwifery pre-NHS/hospital = norm there is also Call the midwife, shadows of the workhouse and Farewell to the East end (all based in London docklands) as well as The Green Lady which is based in Glasgow, great anecdotal homebirth stories from midwives who brought the baby in her bag :lol:.


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## KandyKinz

Since we're on the midwife topic I just wanted to add that not all midwives are created equal. The training differs incredibly and some midwives in third world countries have no official training at all just a good heart and eagerness to help. To me that's an important consideration when comparing outcomes historically and among different cultures.....


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## Celesse

Jetters said:


> ChloesMummy said:
> 
> 
> I came accross this story the other day, really sad, it is described as homebirth but sounds more along the lines of freebirth. The parents took it to the extreme.
> *Upsetting*
> https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uk...er-mother-told-midwives-not-to-interfere.html
> 
> That is a sad story, but it's 6 years old and there will ALWAYS be extreme cases about every aspect of childbirth. That tragedy didn't happen because they freebirthed, it happened because they ignored MASSIVE risks.Click to expand...

Very sad, but it doesn't sound like they were well informed and understood and took steps to minimise the risk. She wasn't aware she was carrying twins, but was aware the baby was breech. Plus it sounds like midwives were there but she kept them hands off even when problems started. 
If you are going to attempt something like this then you need to research the risks in advance and the couple in the article don't appear to have done so.


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## JenStar1976

Sorry if I'm being stupid, but does freebirthing go as far as not having antenatal appointments, scans, blood tests etc.? Or is it just the birth itself that has no medical assistance? x


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## stella123

Thank you girls for replying. Been really interesting hearing all of your opinions! :)


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## KandyKinz

JenStar1976 said:


> Sorry if I'm being stupid, but does freebirthing go as far as not having antenatal appointments, scans, blood tests etc.? Or is it just the birth itself that has no medical assistance? x

I too would like to know what the "norm" is when it comes to free birth prenatal care. Do most people see a practioner for prenatal care and then "fake" a precipitous delivery at home... Or do they abandon all forms of care eg scans and blood tests????


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## stella123

KandyKinz said:


> JenStar1976 said:
> 
> 
> Sorry if I'm being stupid, but does freebirthing go as far as not having antenatal appointments, scans, blood tests etc.? Or is it just the birth itself that has no medical assistance? x
> 
> I too would like to know what the "norm" is when it comes to free birth prenatal care. Do most people see a practioner for prenatal care and then "fake" a precipitous delivery at home... Or do they abandon all forms of care eg scans and blood tests????Click to expand...


This is quite a good point. If they want to do it completely alone, then maybe they do choose to not have prenatal checks/care. Perhaps it differs on personal choice, but I guess it would make sense. Think you have to be incredibly brave! :wacko:


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## Janidog

Im happy to have a home birth but would not do it unassisted, and my hubby would not agree to it, at the end of the day he wants whats best for me and our baby


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## winegums

JenStar1976 said:


> Sorry if I'm being stupid, but does freebirthing go as far as not having antenatal appointments, scans, blood tests etc.? Or is it just the birth itself that has no medical assistance? x

well freebirth is just the act of birthing without assistance.

it really varies on ante natal care etc

some women choose to have NOTHING no scans blood tests, meetings with midwives, literally nothing. (now this is where i think it's slightly irresponsible but again not for me to judge'

others are the exact opposite and have every scan blood test meeting with midwives etc even have midwives present or in the house on standby in case of complications, with the hospital notified what they are doing etc

then theres all the people inbetween!


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## JenStar1976

winegums said:


> JenStar1976 said:
> 
> 
> Sorry if I'm being stupid, but does freebirthing go as far as not having antenatal appointments, scans, blood tests etc.? Or is it just the birth itself that has no medical assistance? x
> 
> well freebirth is just the act of birthing without assistance.
> 
> it really varies on ante natal care etc
> 
> some women choose to have NOTHING no scans blood tests, meetings with midwives, literally nothing. (now this is where i think it's slightly irresponsible but again not for me to judge'
> 
> others are the exact opposite and have every scan blood test meeting with midwives etc even have midwives present or in the house on standby in case of complications, with the hospital notified what they are doing etc
> 
> then theres all the people inbetween!Click to expand...

Thanks for this. It was the Telegraph article about the lady and her twins that got me thinking. I couldn't believe that she didn't know she was carrying twins, so guessed that she hadn't had any scans. x


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## winegums

yeah see thats very extreme, she wouldnt allow the midwives to help her and her babies ended up dying.

Most freebirthers will except medical help if NEEDS be and often have alerted hospitals and midwives to be on standby.

There was probably some reason she was so anti medical care but it is certainly not the norm


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## Dumpling

As a midwife, the very idea of freebirthing sends shivers down my spine. I have had too much experience of things going wrong, even when everything has been completely normal to begin with. I was a community midwife & attended women at many (hands off, intervention free) wonderful homebirths, although I have to say I have never had anyone refuse to let me listen to the babys heartbeat & all have been willing to transfer in when recommended. 

Slightly OT, but it also upsets me somewhat when I hear people saying 'Just tell them you're having a home birth, the midwives have to attend you legally' when women have complications & are recommended to have a hospital delivery because I think does nobody think of the poor midwife they are putting in that position?! 

Sorry, will get off the soapbox now! :blush:


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## marley2580

Dumpling said:


> Slightly OT, but it also upsets me somewhat when I hear people saying 'Just tell them you're having a home birth, the midwives have to attend you legally' when women have complications & are recommended to have a hospital delivery because I think does nobody think of the poor midwife they are putting in that position?!
> 
> Sorry, will get off the soapbox now! :blush:

I understand where you're coming from but the problem comes from consultants and midwives all having different opinions. Eg I chose to try for a home vbac and was advised not to by the consultant and a few midwives, whereas one or two of my CMWs were very supportive. So who was right?:shrug:


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## Celesse

marley2580 said:


> Dumpling said:
> 
> 
> Slightly OT, but it also upsets me somewhat when I hear people saying 'Just tell them you're having a home birth, the midwives have to attend you legally' when women have complications & are recommended to have a hospital delivery because I think does nobody think of the poor midwife they are putting in that position?!
> 
> Sorry, will get off the soapbox now! :blush:
> 
> I understand where you're coming from but the problem comes from consultants and midwives all having different opinions. Eg I chose to try for a home vbac and was advised not to by the consultant and a few midwives, whereas one or two of my CMWs were very supportive. So who was right?:shrug:Click to expand...

In an ideal world shouldn't professionals be educating women about the risks and helping them reduce these risks without bullying or pressurising them? You can't eliminate risk altogether, so any intervention is just risk minimisation. If women are truly informed and are giving, or with-holding consent based on this information then they can work in partnership with the professionals.


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## Dream.A.Dream

I personally would not be comfortable with this xx


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## MikaylasMummy

no way would i ever recomend anyone to risk it!i was only 22 when i had my lo..perfectly healthy, fit and had no diagnosed problems in pregnancy what so ever..to anyone it would have been straight forward and just the type of pregnancy they would have allowed a home birth/birth centre..turns out i had a placenta accreta and nearly bled right out..the drs were just able to save me,my uterus and stop me from going into theatre but if i was at home with no help i would have bled to death before the ambulance had time to get there!i know this is not the case with everyone but as i said mine would have looked like the perfect pregnancy!i wouldnt risk it to be honest but everyone is different!


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## lozzy21

Midwifes have been around for ever however alot of them have no medical traning and are just a woman who has helped out with a lot of births. They will know remedys to help with a few problems but there is no guarentee that they will work.


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## trumpetbum

Celesse said:


> marley2580 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dumpling said:
> 
> 
> Slightly OT, but it also upsets me somewhat when I hear people saying 'Just tell them you're having a home birth, the midwives have to attend you legally' when women have complications & are recommended to have a hospital delivery because I think does nobody think of the poor midwife they are putting in that position?!
> 
> Sorry, will get off the soapbox now! :blush:
> 
> I understand where you're coming from but the problem comes from consultants and midwives all having different opinions. Eg I chose to try for a home vbac and was advised not to by the consultant and a few midwives, whereas one or two of my CMWs were very supportive. So who was right?:shrug:Click to expand...
> 
> In an ideal world shouldn't professionals be educating women about the risks and helping them reduce these risks without bullying or pressurising them? You can't eliminate risk altogether, so any intervention is just risk minimisation. If women are truly informed and are giving, or with-holding consent based on this information then they can work in partnership with the professionals.Click to expand...

Ita, also I trust my m/w 100% and if she felt we needed to be in hospital I'd be changing my plans, a bit bummed but I'd be happy to follow that advice and transfer to hospital care. 
Unfortunately I might have made the decision to go against a midwives advice in my last pregnancy because of the relentless attempts to thwart my homebirth and the fact that at no time did I build a relationship with a midwife, I saw a different person every time, some of whom were very against coming out to attend me . The only thing I could trust was my instincts and the research I'd immersed myself in, which is a real shame as I feel that the attendance of a good midwife is worth its weight in gold and I'm extremely grateful that I have that wealth of experience, expertise and education to lean on this time around. I feel that if women weren't fobbed off so much, there'd be a greater element of trust and willingness to enter into discussion and compromise.


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## mommyof3co

I haven't read all the responses. But I personally would love to do this...but in my own home, not in the ocean or something haha. I know my body and feel that I could prepare myself to handle most situations and if something did go wrong 911 is only a phone call away. But Mark isn't comfortable with it so it isn't something I will be doing. He would rather have a professional overseeing but maybe us still doing it fully on our own with them watching just in case.


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## stella123

Most independent midwives takke a step back during home deliveries and will advise the woman to go with her body's initiative and only intervene if need be. But I do think its important that the baby is monitored occassionally during labour, just to double check everythings going okay. But I believe every woman should be entitled to their own birth experience - unfortuantely this doesn't always go to plan


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## mommyof3co

Yeah I will be a VBAC so I'm sure they'll do some monitoring but I'd like to be left alone for the most part. I don't like to be touched or talked to when I'm in labor because I kind of go inside myself I guess is the only way I could describe it, like I block everything else out so someone touching me messes that up


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## bubbles

I think the way a woman births is an extremely personal choice that NO ONE has the right to judge, just the same as how a woman chooses to feed their child (as much as I advocate BFing it is still a personal choice). No one knows the circumstances surrounding that womans decision, for example if a woman had previously lost a child due to medical negligence during labour/birth would people still say she was irresponsible if she chose to freebirth? I certainly wouldn't as I would understand her mistrust in the medical profession. 
I personally don't have alot of faith in the MW team at my hospital due to my past experience with them not following my birth plan and leaving me to labour for so long. I don't feel they would follow my wishes this time at the hospital so have chosen to birth at home as I will feel more in control and able to speak up for myself. Although I will have a MW at my home I would prefer to birth on my own and follow my body rather than orders of when to push or not (not really what I would call a freebirth) Of course if I felt something was wrong I would ask the MW to check


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## flubdub

winegums said:


> stella123 said:
> 
> 
> I think there's possibly a lot of legality matters, and maybe a debate on the human rights of the child getting the best healthy start. I agree that it is a bit too risky.
> 
> As you can see here, a woman has an ocean birth. At first I watched it and was like "Wow, so natural, look how the baby intuitively swims. And then my critical side creeped in "Good god, it could bang it's head on those rocks/I know the high salt in the water would kill most infection, but that's quite a risk to take"
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBoc7dFvXkk&feature=player_embedded
> 
> 
> I myself have not had children yet, but have worked as a doula and done work experience as a midwife and starting my midwifery course in 2 years once I've managed to save a bit more money - so I am unaware of how you feel mentally during labour, but I think going this far is perhaps too risky for mother and child?
> 
> saltwater is great for wounds and doesn't cause infection? many people in other countries go into the sea to give birth aloneClick to expand...

Wouldnt the salt water sting the babies eyes? I would have liked to see that guy have a better grip of the baby tbh. It was just flailing around in the water on its own mostly!


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## lozzy21

As much as you can be prepared what if its you that has the issue? You cant give yourself CPR.


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## winegums

flubdub said:


> winegums said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> stella123 said:
> 
> 
> I think there's possibly a lot of legality matters, and maybe a debate on the human rights of the child getting the best healthy start. I agree that it is a bit too risky.
> 
> As you can see here, a woman has an ocean birth. At first I watched it and was like "Wow, so natural, look how the baby intuitively swims. And then my critical side creeped in "Good god, it could bang it's head on those rocks/I know the high salt in the water would kill most infection, but that's quite a risk to take"
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBoc7dFvXkk&feature=player_embedded
> 
> 
> I myself have not had children yet, but have worked as a doula and done work experience as a midwife and starting my midwifery course in 2 years once I've managed to save a bit more money - so I am unaware of how you feel mentally during labour, but I think going this far is perhaps too risky for mother and child?
> 
> saltwater is great for wounds and doesn't cause infection? many people in other countries go into the sea to give birth aloneClick to expand...
> 
> Wouldnt the salt water sting the babies eyes? I would have liked to see that guy have a better grip of the baby tbh. It was just flailing around in the water on its own mostly!Click to expand...

thats a good point flubdub havent thought about that, although in warmer countries etc lots of women go into the sea to give birth so i guess it must be ok


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## winegums

lozzy21 said:


> As much as you can be prepared what if its you that has the issue? You cant give yourself CPR.

well most people that do it have the support of friends and family, at least one other person with them.

those who don't and decide to do it totally alone usually are the same people that have refused all medical care such as blood tests or scans etc. Some of these people have the thought that they want nature to let it run its course. if its meant to be its meant to be etc. I'm not saying I agree with this, just pointing out that if someone has this mentality they are not going to worry about someone doing cpr


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## Sophist

flubdub said:


> winegums said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> stella123 said:
> 
> 
> I think there's possibly a lot of legality matters, and maybe a debate on the human rights of the child getting the best healthy start. I agree that it is a bit too risky.
> 
> As you can see here, a woman has an ocean birth. At first I watched it and was like "Wow, so natural, look how the baby intuitively swims. And then my critical side creeped in "Good god, it could bang it's head on those rocks/I know the high salt in the water would kill most infection, but that's quite a risk to take"
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBoc7dFvXkk&feature=player_embedded
> 
> 
> I myself have not had children yet, but have worked as a doula and done work experience as a midwife and starting my midwifery course in 2 years once I've managed to save a bit more money - so I am unaware of how you feel mentally during labour, but I think going this far is perhaps too risky for mother and child?
> 
> saltwater is great for wounds and doesn't cause infection? many people in other countries go into the sea to give birth aloneClick to expand...
> 
> Wouldnt the salt water sting the babies eyes? I would have liked to see that guy have a better grip of the baby tbh. It was just flailing around in the water on its own mostly!Click to expand...

It seems to me salt water would sting less than plain water! If you use contacts, you put saline in your eyes when you put in your contacts, and I can't feel it, other than its wet. But plain water in my eyes burns.


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