# The time has come... (MMR, advice/information needed)



## LittleBoo

Yes, I could google, but that involves ploughing through biased websites trying to translate to lamens terms for my simple mind, figured you wonderful ladies (and gents?) could throw some knowledge my way.

We recieved our yellow letter today, calling Cas for his MMR jab. I know I'll be getting him vaccinated, *but* I need to know about delaying, what age is best, the whys whats etc. All advice is appreciated!


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## chocolala

We're planning on delaying the MMR until lily is 15 months, which is when it use to be done before all that autism stuff, as I've read the rubella(?) part of the jab is most affective then, as until roughly 15 months baby still has immunity from mum. 

I don't know about the other parts of the jab though.

Eta, it's not the rubella element of the vaccine, it's the measles part that is supposed to be most effective from 15months.


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## lau86

Natural parenting might have some ideas. Personally I'm not delaying so haven't looked into it x


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## SabrinaKat

The autism link has been completely discredited and the British doctor who did the 'study' and proposed the link has been stripped of his accreditation in the UK by the BMA; the magazine Private Eye has done alot of reports on how this completely undermined the whole MMR process....that said, I do plan to wait until 15 months myself UNLESS there is an outbreak of measles in Ireland (at the moment there is in Cork), as I feel more comfortable waiting a little longer. Perhaps if you look at the BMJ's website, they might have some good information about the MMR, and/or perhaps the AAP or NHS-websites as well (lots of initials - LOL!). I did ask my GP/nurse about doing the three separately, but was told that separate are less effective and she immunised her two children with the combined one, which for me, is a good recommendation....

best wishes


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## Torz

With Alfie I delayed untill 18 months, I was just not happy with him having so many injections in such s short space of time. I'll be doing the same with Alister


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## MrsBea23

SabrinaKat said:


> The autism link has been completely discredited and the British doctor who did the 'study' and proposed the link has been stripped of his accreditation in the UK by the BMA; the magazine Private Eye has done alot of reports on how this completely undermined the whole MMR process....that said

Hmmm not wanting to controversial but earlier this year a court in Italy ruled that the MMR did trigger autism in a case over there and has opened the door to more claims, currently in Britain it is also being re-investigated and in the news this week it is actually implying that there is a link.

If it was me I would definitely be holding off until it has been looked into again.


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## Lydiarose

we got oscars 2 weeks ago at almost 2,i thought it would be easier on his body being a bit bigger but no,weve had 2 weeks of hell,his behaviours changed drastically he wont sleep hes very hyperactive and has been constantly ill,its got to the stage where im becoming concerned,wish id of gone with my insticts and not had it done at all.

i dont even recognise him at the moment.

x


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## lau86

Lydiarose said:


> we got oscars 2 weeks ago at almost 2,i thought it would be easier on his body being a bit bigger but no,weve had 2 weeks of hell,his behaviours changed drastically he wont sleep hes very hyperactive and has been constantly ill,its got to the stage where im becoming concerned,wish id of gone with my insticts and not had it done at all.
> 
> i dont even recognise him at the moment.
> 
> x

Wow really? And it's not just a coincidence? That's pretty concerning


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## Lydiarose

Im PRAYING its a coincidence . . .


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## Ozzieshunni

MrsBea23 said:


> SabrinaKat said:
> 
> 
> The autism link has been completely discredited and the British doctor who did the 'study' and proposed the link has been stripped of his accreditation in the UK by the BMA; the magazine Private Eye has done alot of reports on how this completely undermined the whole MMR process....that said
> 
> Hmmm not wanting to controversial but earlier this year a court in Italy ruled that the MMR did trigger autism in a case over there and has opened the door to more claims, currently in Britain it is also being re-investigated and in the news this week it is actually implying that there is a link.
> 
> If it was me I would definitely be holding off until it has been looked into again.Click to expand...

Do you have the medical evidence for this or a link?


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## TennisGal

I've spoken to doctors, nurses and various paeds about this at length. I think it's a highly personal thing. I know the measles part of the vaccine is supposed to be slightly more effective after 15 months, but researching this has shown me that it really is only slightly more effective...especially if the mother has not previously had measles. This is quite interesting https://www.skepticalraptor.com/ske...measles-vaccine-effective-administered-later/

Anyway, we decided to go with it. I felt sick, as I always do when it comes to making these decisions, but the girls have so many activities and see people so much...I felt the benefits outweighed the risks. 

I wasn't aware, from my extensive googling, that the Dept of Health were reexamining the links to autism based on the Italian case?


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## MrsBea23

Ozzieshunni said:


> MrsBea23 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SabrinaKat said:
> 
> 
> The autism link has been completely discredited and the British doctor who did the 'study' and proposed the link has been stripped of his accreditation in the UK by the BMA; the magazine Private Eye has done alot of reports on how this completely undermined the whole MMR process....that said
> 
> Hmmm not wanting to controversial but earlier this year a court in Italy ruled that the MMR did trigger autism in a case over there and has opened the door to more claims, currently in Britain it is also being re-investigated and in the news this week it is actually implying that there is a link.
> 
> If it was me I would definitely be holding off until it has been looked into again.Click to expand...
> 
> Do you have the medical evidence for this or a link?Click to expand...

Well that is my point until there is evidence one way or the other then I would personally hold off, the fact that it is back in the media doesn't tell me one way or the other obviously but it was mentioned that it was being re-investigated.

I see you are in Scotland I am not sure where but both forth 1 and capital have been talking about it this week and obviously you need to take the daily mail with a pinch of salt but this was in the paper on Monday:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-123482/New-MMR-link-autism.html

I don't know what the Italian court based their finding on but I would hope it wasn't just speculation!

Lydiarose - I am really sorry to hear you have this worry but fx'd it is not connected.


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## Ozzieshunni

Eeek, sorry....I don't think the daily mail is worth the paper it's printed on. I'll wait for scientific evidence.


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## MrsBea23

Ozzieshunni said:


> Eeek, sorry....I don't think the daily mail is worth the paper it's printed on. I'll wait for scientific evidence.

Obviously the daily mail is not going to be a deciding factor duh! 

Your kids your choice personally I wouldn't risk it and would get them separately even though they are not as effective but as I said your kids your choice.


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## Ozzieshunni

I don't think you can get them seperately in Scotland. :shrug:


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## TennisGal

You can't get a single mumps vaccine easily in the uk...below is interesting.

https://ruleof6ix.fieldofscience.com/2012/04/single-mumps-vaccine-jab-versus-mmr-in.html


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## MrsBea23

Ozzieshunni said:


> I don't think you can get them seperately in Scotland. :shrug:

Lots of places in London do it though and we are down there often enough. Luckily my LO is only 5 months anyway so I have a year to decide.


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## MrsBea23

TennisGal said:


> You can't get a single mumps vaccine easily in the uk...below is interesting.
> 
> https://ruleof6ix.fieldofscience.com/2012/04/single-mumps-vaccine-jab-versus-mmr-in.html

This is an interesting article although I am on my phone and didn't read it fully. 

I have to agree with the guy who commented at the end though I believe there is no direct link but I also believe that the mmr can bring it on if dormant.

OP - I feel like I have hijacked your thread sorry I am going to stop commenting now.


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## JessPape

We will get it at 1 year.. I don't see the point in delaying it after doing studies. Im confident in my doctors.


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## fifi-folle

I made the decision to have the MMR and the boosters done separately as I wasn't comfortable with giving DS so many at the same time. With respect to the MMR I decided that the risk of complications from measles was greater than the supposed risk of autism. If there had been any firm evidence of a link then I would have made a different decision but as measles is on the rise due to the scare from Andrew Wakefield's discredited research I didn't want to risk it.


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## patch2006uk

For me, the deciding factor was that autism rates haven't increased inline with the increase in MMR rates. 

The fact is, we don't know what causes autism, so whose to say that feeding your kids frozen pizza, taking them to a chlorinated swimming pool or giving them tap water isn't all contributory? But we can't live in fear. Measles, mumps and rubella are killer diseases (whatever the anti-vax community might say), and the risk of him getting one of those illnesses outweighed the very small risk of the unknown associated with the MMR vaccine.

In countries where Wakefield didn't publish his results, the MMR isn't a controversial jab at all. Other injections that we don't even think twice about are the ones that cause the most confusion and panic abroad. It all depends on what your country's media has presented to what risks we perceive as necessary.

https://www.badscience.net/category/mmr/ - a website which actually tries to get to the fact behind the headlines. This link is for the MMR stories, but it's worth seeing what he has to say on any health headlines, as often they're massively misleading.


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## Bella_Bee

It really doesn't bother me at all. We don't vax and we see lots of people and go to lots of classes. The risk of death from any of those diseases is minimal. Rates of measles deaths dropped to about 0.025% before the vaccine was introduced though the number of cases was pretty much the same - this information is available in a graph on the nhs website. The vaccine did further reduce the death rate but the biggest impact was upon the number of cases.

Diet, living conditions and access to healthcare are the most important factors in fighting disease - all of these are responsible for the dramatic drop in deaths prior to vaccination.

The benefits to the immune system of catching and recovering from these diseases are immeasurable. From lower rates of illness to lower rates of cancer - it does your immune system good to catch them. And then there are vaccine injuries/deaths to consider - they happen and there is a compensation programme in place for them.

For me, the minor risk of death/illness from a normal human virus is not enough to risk the short or long term health risks of vaccination.


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## Bella_Bee

patch2006uk said:


> For me, the deciding factor was that autism rates haven't increased inline with the increase in MMR rates.
> 
> The fact is, we don't know what causes autism, so whose to say that feeding your kids frozen pizza, taking them to a chlorinated swimming pool or giving them tap water isn't all contributory? But we can't live in fear. Measles, mumps and rubella are killer diseases (whatever the anti-vax community might say), and the risk of him getting one of those illnesses outweighed the very small risk of the unknown associated with the MMR vaccine.
> 
> In countries where Wakefield didn't publish his results, the MMR isn't a controversial jab at all. Other injections that we don't even think twice about are the ones that cause the most confusion and panic abroad. It all depends on what your country's media has presented to what risks we perceive as necessary.
> 
> https://www.badscience.net/category/mmr/ - a website which actually tries to get to the fact behind the headlines. This link is for the MMR stories, but it's worth seeing what he has to say on any health headlines, as often they're massively misleading.

You need to look at the raw data for yourself, not just other people's say so. The anti vax community is not just filled with odd and wacky sites with scaremongering tactics... Quite often you will find doctors, nurses and immunologists speaking out against vaccines - very often the data used to back vaccines is the information also used to discredit them, not made up or twisted stats.

Please don't generalise. Many women in this community have lost their children to vaccinations and are simply trying to help other mothers to make an informed choice.


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## patch2006uk

All I said was that some anti-vax people really underplay the mortality rates of the diseases the vaccines protect against. You (incorrectly) inferred the rest.


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## Irish Eyes

I am completely terrified for my LO to have the MMR. My little brother had an awful reaction to the jab, everyone said it was like my Mum brought home a different baby. I'm nervous about all the jabs but this is the worst one for me. I really don't want him to have it but then I'm scared what might happen if he got one of those diseases.


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## patch2006uk

I don't understand this 'brought home a different baby' thing. My parent's friend's son is autistic, and he was clearly different to a 'normal' child from the word go. It wasn't something that suddenly occurred, it was and is just how he is. Maybe people start paying more attention to any strange behaviour after a jab? Maybe the jab is given at the age autistic behaviours tend to start becoming apparent (which we know it is). 

I just can't believe that 20 years of research would have missed or overlooked completely 'normal' children changing overnight after having the MMR. I don't have total faith in science, but I doubt they'd ignore these cases if there was compelling evidence.


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## Irish Eyes

He woke up that morning able to say a few words and he was walking. Everyone commented on him being a very smiley, happy, laid back baby. He had the jab that afternoon and spent the day crying and sleeping. He had a raging temp and was given calpol before going to bed. He couldn't/wouldn't walk or talk after this, he was extremely clingy and constantly seemed distraught. He was taken to a doctor who said he'd seen a few cases like this and my brother was referred to a physio and speech therapist to help. I never said he suddenly became autistic but this was our experience.

They're not ignoring all of these cases as we've seen someone has been given compensation directly resulting from autism being caused by the jab. Besides, many practises have been found to be incorrect after years, we're not so intelligent now that it doesn't happen. Not that long ago it was believed crying helped babies lungs so you should leave them crying.


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## staralfur

I'm really curious as to how they decided that the vaccine was the direct cause of autism. You'd think there'd be more info on that.


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## whit.

I thought I read something while I was researching MMR that said you can't just 'become' Autistic?


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## Bella_Bee

QUOTE=patch2006uk;21472943]All I said was that some anti-vax people really underplay the mortality rates of the diseases the vaccines protect against. You (incorrectly) inferred the rest.[/QUOTE]

You can't really underplay 0.025% other than to say nobody ever dies of measles. Mumps and Rubella have even lower mortality rates.

I still think that's a wild and inaccurate generalisation. Most people who are against vaccinations aren't underplaying anything...


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## Irish Eyes

I know the Court in Italy agreed that the jab had a direct link to this child becomming autistic which is why they paid out compensation. I don't actually worry about the autism side exactly, it's more the other reactions that I've heard happening from this jab that worries me.


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## LittleBoo

Sorry, lurking, reading, thinking hard about all of this. The date we were given for his jabs is 26th, the day before we leave for Portugal. I dread the thought of leaving the country after such a hard dose of vaccination, so definitely putting it off for now. I'll be ringing Monday to discuss giving the boosters separately, much thanks to the person who mentioned that! Not sure why it didn't occur to me :lol: makes me feel slightly more at ease if he could have a break in between the lot.


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## Irish Eyes

I was looking at doing the jabs separately but was advised by my doctor that they haven't officially been approved by whatever medical board usually approves them. It's something I really need to look into further, the BUPA website says this
"Single vaccines aren&#8217;t licensed in the UK and haven't passed UK safety and effectiveness testing"


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## staralfur

Irish Eyes said:


> I know the Court in Italy agreed that the jab had a direct link to this child becomming autistic which is why they paid out compensation.

But how? :shrug:


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## Irish Eyes

staralfur said:


> Irish Eyes said:
> 
> 
> I know the Court in Italy agreed that the jab had a direct link to this child becomming autistic which is why they paid out compensation.
> 
> But how? :shrug:Click to expand...

Obviously I can only go by what I've read!
"Antonio Barboni, a doctor of forensic medicine and appointed by the judge to independently advise the court, wrote a report saying that in the absence of any other pre-existing conditions it is a reasonable scientific probability that Valentinos autism can be traced back to the administration of the MMR vaccine&#8201;.&#8201;.&#8201;.&#8201;by the health authority"
"Judge Lucio Ardigo, awarding compensation to the family, agreed. He said it was conclusively established that Valentino had suffered from an autistic disorder associated with medium cognitive delay and his illness, as Dr Barboni stated, was linked to receiving the jab"


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## vintage67

Are *all* of these people lying?
I don't think so.

https://www.followingvaccinations.com/

I am terrified of vaccinations and of the diseases. My older son has a form of Asperger's Syndrome. I have always felt badly about the flu shot that I was practically coerced into getting whenever I was pregnant, and the Hep B vac that he received as a newborn.

We have vaccinated son #2, but more cautiously. However, he has started banging his head since his Dtap about 3 1/2 weeks ago. I'm sick over it. Do I think the Dtap is to blame? I have no idea.

As to the "brought home a different baby" there are sooo many people that tell this same story and many have video evidence supporting it. 

Obviously vaccines do not have any sort of adverse effects on the vast, vast majority of chidlren. That does not rule out a genetic component that in rare cases causes a severe reaction. 

Having been told for 5 years that all of our son's issues are "lack of discipline" or all my fault somehow for being an home mom gets tiresome. Did vaccinations do it? Again, I don't know.


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## staralfur

Irish Eyes said:


> staralfur said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Irish Eyes said:
> 
> 
> I know the Court in Italy agreed that the jab had a direct link to this child becomming autistic which is why they paid out compensation.
> 
> But how? :shrug:Click to expand...
> 
> Obviously I can only go by what I've read!
> "Antonio Barboni, a doctor of forensic medicine and appointed by the judge to independently advise the court, wrote a report saying that in the absence of any other pre-existing conditions it is a reasonable scientific probability that Valentinos autism can be traced back to the administration of the MMR vaccine&#8201;.&#8201;.&#8201;.&#8201;by the health authority"
> "Judge Lucio Ardigo, awarding compensation to the family, agreed. He said it was conclusively established that Valentino had suffered from an autistic disorder associated with medium cognitive delay and his illness, as Dr Barboni stated, was linked to receiving the jab"Click to expand...

Oh of course, I wasn't trying to imply that YOU needed to give me some explanation, I just really had no idea how they came to that conclusion. I had done a quick google and didn't see anything. Thanks for sharing. :)


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## Bella_Bee

The correlation between the increase in autism and the uptake of the MMR vaccine is alarmingly strong.

There are thousands of families who reported a classic austistic regression in a previously normal and healthy child directly following many vaccinations. 

It mostly comes down to neuroscience, about which we still have so much to learn. In the absence of hard evidence (and autism is a huge grey area) science has often relied upon observation.


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## fifi-folle

LittleBoo said:


> Sorry, lurking, reading, thinking hard about all of this. The date we were given for his jabs is 26th, the day before we leave for Portugal. I dread the thought of leaving the country after such a hard dose of vaccination, so definitely putting it off for now. I'll be ringing Monday to discuss giving the boosters separately, much thanks to the person who mentioned that! Not sure why it didn't occur to me :lol: makes me feel slightly more at ease if he could have a break in between the lot.

We left it a month between the MMR and boosters. According to my HV I'm the only person in my area who has asked to do this :shrug: She did ask that we did the MMR first as DS had no immunity to measles, mumps or rubella whereas he'd had the other two so had some immunity. 
I would definitely leave the jabs until after your holiday!!!


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## StaceyKor

As someone stated before, there is a correlation between MMR and the appearance of autism... Not necessarily that it causes autism but infact the age in which the vaccine is administered. Autism tends to appear around 12-15 months. Therefore it makes sense that since this is when most children are given the MMR vaccine there will appear to be a link. 
I work in Virology and know that the rate of mumps and measles is in fact on the increase in the UK. Therefore, I have no doubt that my daughter will be vaccinated. I should point out that there is also a 'link' between MMR and crohns disease which my brother suffers badly from. This still hasnt altered my decision to vaccinate. Naturally I will still be nervous when she receives the vaccines, but not due to autism. I honestly believe if she was to develop autism it would have happened regardless.

I dont want to offend anyone by this post xx


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## patch2006uk

Bella_Bee said:


> QUOTE=patch2006uk;21472943]All I said was that some anti-vax people really underplay the mortality rates of the diseases the vaccines protect against. You (incorrectly) inferred the rest.

You can't really underplay 0.025% other than to say nobody ever dies of measles. Mumps and Rubella have even lower mortality rates.

I still think that's a wild and inaccurate generalisation. Most people who are against vaccinations aren't underplaying anything...[/QUOTE]

I choose to trust the world health organisation, and they reckon measles is pretty nasty, and has a reasonably high mortality rate

https://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs286/en/

For what it's worth, I'm not interested in anecdotes, or anti or pro vax websites. I only go by peer reviewed research and the recommendations of national and international health organisations. 

I don't doubt that vaccine injuries occur, however the illnesses they protect against are serious, highly contagious and often deadly (according to official statistics).


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## patch2006uk

LittleBoo said:


> Sorry, lurking, reading, thinking hard about all of this. The date we were given for his jabs is 26th, the day before we leave for Portugal. I dread the thought of leaving the country after such a hard dose of vaccination, so definitely putting it off for now. I'll be ringing Monday to discuss giving the boosters separately, much thanks to the person who mentioned that! Not sure why it didn't occur to me :lol: makes me feel slightly more at ease if he could have a break in between the lot.

I totally agree about not getting jabs the day before you go on holiday. Whatever you decide to do, leaving it until after you get back means you won't spoil your holiday. 

Just to throw in our personal experience - LO was absolutely fine after his MMR and other jabs. He got them at 14 months, as he'd had a cold for a few weeks and we rearranged the appt for when he was better. He didn't even get a red mark on his leg, and he wasn't ill afterwards and had no temperature or side effects.


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## patch2006uk

It's also interesting that basically no credible studies have linked autism to MMR, but a few have suggested there is definitely no link

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/19952979/


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## lindseymw

Whilst I can't give advice on separate jabs/delaying as mine have both had them on time. But saying that, both of mine were fine after them, no side effects, no grogginess/grumpiness etc. 

Saying that, I would delay it until after hols just in case they do develop flu like symptoms (completely normal!)


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## losingtheplot

OP, all my children have had the MMR, my 5th is due hers in a few months, i have always ended up delaying them by a few weeks due to coughs and cold's etc! I think it was more painful for me, they were fine after and a bag of choccy buttons helps. I understand the worry that you have as i had it with my first and second and third!! Enjoy your holiday x x


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## My_First

If you look into more detail on the Italian case, guess whose research was brought up? Go on, have a guess?

Don't people keep telling us not to take one persons opinion, which is exactly what happened in the Italian case. It's currently being appealed.


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## SabrinaKat

I wrote earlier about the autism link, but here's a report from CNN that might clarify further --
https://edition.cnn.com/2011/HEALTH/01/05/autism.vaccines/index.html

I found one paragraph interesting: "But perhaps as important as the scare's effect on infectious disease is the energy, emotion and money that have been diverted away from efforts to understand the real causes of autism and how to help children and families who live with it," the BMJ editorial states. 

Perhaps we'll never really understand what causes autism? 

best wishes


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## Bella_Bee

patch2006uk said:


> Bella_Bee said:
> 
> 
> QUOTE=patch2006uk;21472943]All I said was that some anti-vax people really underplay the mortality rates of the diseases the vaccines protect against. You (incorrectly) inferred the rest.
> 
> You can't really underplay 0.025% other than to say nobody ever dies of measles. Mumps and Rubella have even lower mortality rates.
> 
> I still think that's a wild and inaccurate generalisation. Most people who are against vaccinations aren't underplaying anything...Click to expand...

I choose to trust the world health organisation, and they reckon measles is pretty nasty, and has a reasonably high mortality rate

https://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs286/en/

For what it's worth, I'm not interested in anecdotes, or anti or pro vax websites. I only go by peer reviewed research and the recommendations of national and international health organisations. 

I don't doubt that vaccine injuries occur, however the illnesses they protect against are serious, highly contagious and often deadly (according to official statistics).[/QUOTE]

Bullet point 3 is the most notable. 95% of deaths are in low-income countries with * weak health infrastructures*.

I also could not see a mortality rate for children in the developed world though I note that their graphs indicate the same as the NHS - 0.025% prior to vaccination. That is not "often" deadly at all. 

I have little faith in many medical journals and studies given the funding sources are most often drug companies who stand to gain from finding no link. These are companies that have been repeatedly fined for fraud, for bribing doctors bonus payments and gifts for pushing their products and for failing to diclose safety information about their products. BBC news reported a story about GlaxoSmithKline being fined $3bn earlier this year for fraud.

However, various studies have indeed demonstrated links. Just looking at autism and illness rates in vaccinated vs unvaccinated populations is enough.


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## SabrinaKat

so, there's no autism in unvaccinated children? (if I've understood your post above)

Just curious...


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## My_First

So, just so I'm clear you won't believe those research papers in case they are funded by drug companies, but will those that show a correlation which could also be funded by anti vax supporters or homeopathy etc. for their own gain. 

And not trying to be rude in the slightest but isn't that a little blinkered?

And I edit to say would you be able to post or pm those stats on vax and un vax for my curiosity?


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## patch2006uk

Did you stop reading at that bullet point? It's pretty clear that measles is a killer. Yes, it's more likely to kill you in a country where health infrastructure is weaker. Everything is more likely to kill you if you're living in those conditions. But that doesn't mean it isn't deadly here too. 

It was common for generations above us to have friends deaf or permanently disabled from measles. The vaccine and it's effectiveness means that now we don't see measles injury as an unavoidable part of life. Just because we don't see if doesn't mean it can't happen.


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## StaceyKor

Looking at autism rates in vaccinated vs unvaccinated is a completely inaccurate way to analyse this. Logically, we can assume unvaccinated countries are in less developed countries whose main priority when it comes to healthcare is not autism. These countries deal with a range of infectious diseases unseen in the UK/USA for decades (or ever!!). These communicable diseases take priority. It should also be noted that it is these same countries where the measles, mumps and rubella deaths are highest. Of course no-one is going to take the time to diagnose autism.

We are fortunate that we live in countries with excellent health services. We have access to treatment and preventative measures for almost everything. Even 50/60 years ago children were not diagnosed with autism unless they had very severe, obvious symptoms. Many would simply be seen as "disruptive children, unsociable children" etc. It is only in the last 20 years or so that the condition has quite rightly been researched. Unfortunately, as is human nature, we always want to point the finger of blame to make sense of the situation. MMR, as I stated earlier, will always be linked due to the correlation between the time of administration and onset of autism symptoms.

Sorry that was so long xx


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## My_First

What I don't understand is that the autistic society and many other bodies who specialise in autism the study of and finding a reason dispute any link with the mmr and yet it still comes up as a discussion point. Are they being paid off too?


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## patch2006uk

I was going to mention higher diagnosis rates in recent years too. Some on the autistic spectrum would never have been diagnosed a generation ago, which makes it look like this explosion in cases has occurred, when in fact it's just that now we label more people.


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## SabrinaKat

I think this, as usual, is going to get 'locked' soon! 

However, I think the point we are all trying to make is that IF we as parents could look at ALL the information, including what has been suggested above, it would allow us to make informed decisions -- measles, mumps and rubella may not be dangerous as other posters have pointed out in 'western' society, but it is a major killer in the developing countries. Obviously, ALL of us want to protect our children from any dangers, but the usage of vaccines is what allows our children to have a higher survival rate from disaseas that can kill. 

best wishes

ps. am curious, tho - when I went to university in NYC, I had to have the MMR (couldn't find my childhood records), and was told that all children/students in NY had to have their vaccinations to attend....how do non-vac parents deal with that?


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## xemmax

I'm sure higher diagnosis rates have a lot to do with the huge increase in cases of autism, but they can't be held solely responsible. It's likely there are environmental causes behind the rise too (not vaccinations, though).


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## My_First

SabrinaKat said:


> I think this, as usual, is going to get 'locked' soon!
> 
> However, I think the point we are all trying to make is that IF we as parents could look at ALL the information, including what has been suggested above, it would allow us to make informed decisions -- measles, mumps and rubella may not be dangerous as other posters have pointed out in 'western' society, but it is a major killer in the developing countries. Obviously, ALL of us want to protect our children from any dangers, but the usage of vaccines is what allows our children to have a higher survival rate from disaseas that can kill.
> 
> best wishes
> 
> ps. am curious, tho - when I went to university in NYC, I had to have the MMR (couldn't find my childhood records), and was told that all children/students in NY had to have their vaccinations to attend....how do non-vac parents deal with that?

I hope it's not locked as I do think its quite polite instead of flaming!

Re your point, I think some choose to home school or I believe some can use religious exemption. Beyond that I am unsure.


----------



## patch2006uk

xemmax said:


> I'm sure higher diagnosis rates have a lot to do with the huge increase in cases of autism, but they can't be held solely responsible. It's likely there are environmental causes behind the rise too (not vaccinations, though).

I would be inclined to agree with this. We can't poison the air we breathe, fill our water with chemicals and hormones and process our food beyond recognition without it having some ill effects. However, with regards to MMR, it's one of the most researched vaccines out there. I'm pretty sure if there was a conclusive link, they'd have found it, or at least got an inkling of it, by now.


----------



## Bella_Bee

No, I don't think autism doesn't occur in unvaccinated populations. No, I'm not comparing the developed world with the third world - I'm talking about self contained communities living in developed countries.

Autism rates, in the US, stand at 1 in 100. Self contained communities have been shown to have as low a rate as 0 in 35000 although 1 in 4000 is more typical.

No, I did not stop reading at bullet point 3. Yes, measles kills but only 0.025% of those it infects, assuming they aren't vaccinated. In the US they vaccinate against chicken pox, claiming it to be a killer disease too. My point is that these diseases aren't nearly as scary as they sound and aren't "often" fatal by any stretch.

Evolving diagnostic criteria can account for less than a third of the increase in autism rates. Environmental factors make up the rest.

No, I don't disbelieve information in medical journals - I've been involved in this field for over 7 years now. I know a corrupt link when I see one. But, speaking of blinkered - what makes you think the studies demonstrating a link would have anything to do with homeopathy or people looking to gain? Are you aware of the number of people who have developed vaccines and have gone on to discredit them completely? There's not much money in science, not unless you're a corporate giant. Tragic, really.


----------



## tina3747

patch2006uk said:


> LittleBoo said:
> 
> 
> Sorry, lurking, reading, thinking hard about all of this. The date we were given for his jabs is 26th, the day before we leave for Portugal. I dread the thought of leaving the country after such a hard dose of vaccination, so definitely putting it off for now. I'll be ringing Monday to discuss giving the boosters separately, much thanks to the person who mentioned that! Not sure why it didn't occur to me :lol: makes me feel slightly more at ease if he could have a break in between the lot.
> 
> I totally agree about not getting jabs the day before you go on holiday. Whatever you decide to do, leaving it until after you get back means you won't spoil your holiday.
> 
> Just to throw in our personal experience - LO was absolutely fine after his MMR and other jabs. He got them at 14 months, as he'd had a cold for a few weeks and we rearranged the appt for when he was better. He didn't even get a red mark on his leg, and he wasn't ill afterwards and had no temperature or side effects.Click to expand...

I'm pro vax. , my own reasons !

I will add about the holiday thing, we had ours at 14 months. He had no ill effects till exactly 7 days after. A rash appeared, temp and an absolutely awful temper!! He was a beast for about 4 days which coincided with our holiday. He's a bit temperamental anyway but this was ridiculous, just asking for a kiss made him throw himself on the floor screaming . Thankfully I had access to wifi so did a bit of digging on bnb and it's quite common for them to have these symptoms.
He's back to his normal high maintenance self now but it was a tough few days... No the most relaxing start to a holiday!

Justmaking you aware of our experience , not everyone has These symptoms but id Defiantly delay till you get back... Just I case!!


----------



## patch2006uk

Bella_Bee said:


> No, I don't think autism doesn't occur in unvaccinated populations. No, I'm not comparing the developed world with the third world - I'm talking about self contained communities living in developed countries.
> 
> Autism rates, in the US, stand at 1 in 100. Self contained communities have been shown to have as low a rate as 0 in 35000 although 1 in 4000 is more typical.
> 
> No, I did not stop reading at bullet point 3. Yes, measles kills but only 0.025% of those it infects, assuming they aren't vaccinated. In the US they vaccinate against chicken pox, claiming it to be a killer disease too. My point is that these diseases aren't nearly as scary as they sound and aren't "often" fatal by any stretch.
> 
> Evolving diagnostic criteria can account for less than a third of the increase in autism rates. Environmental factors make up the rest.
> 
> No, I don't disbelieve information in medical journals - I've been involved in this field for over 7 years now. I know a corrupt link when I see one. But, speaking of blinkered - what makes you think the studies demonstrating a link would have anything to do with homeopathy or people looking to gain? Are you aware of the number of people who have developed vaccines and have gone on to discredit them completely? There's not much money in science, not unless you're a corporate giant. Tragic, really.

Do you have links to back up your numbers? I'd be interested to read them.


----------



## lau86

So does anyone have a study that can actually prove a direct link between mmr and autism? Or even a theory as to why it happens? I noticed someone asked earlier and it wasn't answered


----------



## tu123

lau86 said:


> So does anyone have a study that can actually prove a direct link between mmr and autism? Or even a theory as to why it happens? I noticed someone asked earlier and it wasn't answered

It isn't answered because there is no such research. I have looked and looked for something credible but as of now it doesn't exist. I have asked this question many a timein these threads. It either kills the thread or it is ignored.


----------



## tu123

I have seen first hand at wirk the effects of measles. u wouldn't want my child to have the bleach type drugs that are run through the veins to help them:cry:


----------



## Irish Eyes

When I said about my concerns previously, I said it's not the autism connection that concens me so much. What concerns me is that there has been so many reports of babies suffering effects from the jab, not all of these people call be lying? Having had it happen to my little brother makes me worry a lot. Surely you can't say for definite that the jab has no reactions?


----------



## Frooty

My lo got vaccinated at 1. To me theres no good enough evidence to not vaccinate the vaccines benefits outweigh the risks by a long shot if u ask me.


----------



## lau86

'reactions' wouldn't be a strong enough argument not to vaccinate for me personally, it's common to have a reaction to a vaccine. It's not an easy choice I know I will feel sick going to have them done but I certainly would not want my son to be the 0.025% the pp has quoted


----------



## Dragonfly

Delayed and regretted forever. It dosnt cause autism but can damage some children and they get chalked down in the spectrum of autism, there is a difference. So I dont go into the autism debate.


----------



## Bella_Bee

I'm almost always on my phone these days as I find it impossible to nurse at the laptop and baby is always attached. But, I will come back to this with links, as requested!


----------



## My_First

I agree that if there is history of Vax damage then its something you need to consider before vaccinating.


----------



## Irish Eyes

lau86 said:


> 'reactions' wouldn't be a strong enough argument not to vaccinate for me personally, it's common to have a reaction to a vaccine. It's not an easy choice I know I will feel sick going to have them done but I certainly would not want my son to be the 0.025% the pp has quoted

I think that's the answer I would have given if I hadn't seen how bad the reaction could be. When you see a perfectly healthy, walking, talking, happy baby have a "reaction" which causes him to change so he can not do any of those things then it makes you worry a lot more. I'm not talking about a temp or something like that which you expect, I'm talking about life changing things.


----------



## Leids

I've read through the thread and now I'm super paranoid! In the state I live in, it's required by law for him to get the vaccine in order to go to school. Free country, eh? :shrug:

Anyway, I'm not entirely sure what I think about it. Autism spectrum disorders are on the rise, but the vaccine itself has been around since the 1970's. Surely if there was an issue with the vaccine then the autism 'boom' so to speak would have been in the 70's, but it's happening now.

Not to say some ingredient hasn't been changed and that's where the issue is.. who knows. I do know that in the US, there have been a lot of outbreaks of diseases that were all but extinct due to people not vaccinating, i.e. whooping cough. Things like that definitely scare me!

I hope they truly find out what causes autism soon. :nope:


----------



## Bella_Bee

MMR was first administered in the UK in 1988. There has been a twentyfold increase in cases since then.


----------



## vintage67

I truly understand the points everyone is making. I think whole scale wide spread refusal of vaccinations would be catostrophic. I understand the research not proving any sort of link to autism from vaccines. I get that too.
However, that does not in any way discount the fact that a small minority of babies have possibly had life changing/altering changes in their brains that may be tied into the ingredients in vaccines. It appears there is most likely a genetic predisposition to this. These parents are not lying. For what reason?
The documentaries that have been done are heartbreaking. The home videos are there. 

I agree there are a lot of toxins in our world. We don't know what sorts of damage long term we are looking at. The rise in Autism may be the warning shot to who knows what sort of long term damages. I also know you can't live your life in total fear. But for the families that have been affected by this and often with multiple children, their fears and concerns deserve our respect. I'm sure 99.9999999999900007% of you will say your kids got vaccinated and they were fine. I believe you. The people who say there kids dramatically changed; I believe you too. We have Autism/Asperger's issues in our family. I do not fully understand the cause. I do vaccinate my children. I do it cautiously, and spread out more than recommended.


----------



## JleStar

Ozzieshunni said:


> Eeek, sorry....I don't think the daily mail is worth the paper it's printed on. I'll wait for scientific evidence.

The evidence is in the countless parent testimonial. I will believe my neighbor, sister and friends experiences over flawed biased "scientific" studies that only serve to push an already corrupt pharmaceutical/health BUSINESS (not practice). Just my opinion...and by the way if you dig deep you will find evidence. :thumbup:


----------



## Midnight_Fairy

I dont think autism its self is on the rise, I just think people know what to look for now, same with schools and doctors. We are all more aware.

My son had the MMR at 13mths and he does have autism but I am not sure on the link, I just think people are more aware. I would say at my support group the mums would go 50/50 on any link. 

With my daughter I think we delayed till 18mths x


----------



## Midnight_Fairy

even if there was a link with autism, I am sorry but I would still vaccinate, autism does not kill your child but those diseases can :(


----------



## Ozzieshunni

JleStar said:


> Ozzieshunni said:
> 
> 
> Eeek, sorry....I don't think the daily mail is worth the paper it's printed on. I'll wait for scientific evidence.
> 
> The evidence is in the countless parent testimonial. I will believe my neighbor, sister and friends experiences over flawed biased "scientific" studies that only serve to push an already corrupt pharmaceutical/health BUSINESS (not practice). Just my opinion...and by the way if you dig deep you will find evidence. :thumbup:Click to expand...

I don't care. I will vaccinate my son. He has a heart condition. I will not risk anything with him that could make his heart strain. I think not to vaccinate is irresponsible. That's MY opinion.


----------



## LittleBoo

I know we'll definitely be vaccinating, and Autism links don't worry me, more the other reactions/whether it's more effective further down the line. This thread has been very insightful!


----------



## Welsh mtb

Some thought provoking stuff here on this thread. It makes me quite weary of the MMR, but what if everyone decided not to vaccinate? Imagine the consequences?


----------



## Dk1234

I wanted to do an alternate vaccine schedule but my dr talked me
Out of it along with my mother, also a Dr.


----------



## Zou

Dk1234 said:


> I wanted to do an alternate vaccine schedule but my dr talked me
> Out of it along with my mother, also a Dr.

What were their reasons against the alternate schedule? Sorry to be nosey. Like PP I'm most worried about reactions rather than autism so am considering not having MMR and boosters all in one go. That just seems such a lot for a baby. I will definitely be vaccinating as I say just considering spreading them out further. I can't think of any reasons why spreading them out would be bad? Other than the risk of catching measles, mumps and rubella in the month or so in between. This isn't really just aimed at you Dk1234. Just curious in case I've overlooked something.


----------



## MrsBea23

Welsh mtb said:


> Some thought provoking stuff here on this thread. It makes me quite weary of the MMR, but what if everyone decided not to vaccinate? Imagine the consequences?

Very interesting points made today.

As for the consequences I have to agree with the guy in this article (only his opinion no facts).
https://gaia-health.com/gaia-blog/2012-05-15/the-great-measles-misunderstanding/


----------



## Quackquack99

My lo had her mmr a early this month and she is fine other having a slight change in her poo.
I felt like it was duty to vaccinate my daughter not only does it protect her it also protects vulnerable people ie pregnant ladies and babies too young for it. Yes I understand that there is a possibilty that the vaccination might not be successful but imo it was a try. If I refused to vaccinate my daughter and she fell pregnant as an adult and caught rubella which in effect caused her baby to suffer, that would be my fault. I'd never forgive myself for it.


----------



## MrsBea23

Zou said:


> Dk1234 said:
> 
> 
> I wanted to do an alternate vaccine schedule but my dr talked me
> Out of it along with my mother, also a Dr.
> 
> What were their reasons against the alternate schedule? Sorry to be nosey. Like PP I'm most worried about reactions rather than autism so am considering not having MMR and boosters all in one go. That just seems such a lot for a baby. I will definitely be vaccinating as I say just considering spreading them out further. I can't think of any reasons why spreading them out would be bad? Other than the risk of catching measles, mumps and rubella in the month or so in between. This isn't really just aimed at you Dk1234. Just curious in case I've overlooked something.Click to expand...

My LO didn't react very well to her second and third lot of shots and the nurse that does them at my doctors actually suggested that I spread out the next ones. One of those things where different medical professionals differ in opinion I guess.


----------



## veganmama

can i ask what counts as a credible source?

the big pro vax people like the government and pharmaceutical industry and doctors arent going to publish a study linking autism and mmr to the big media. they make so much money off vaccines they arent going to risk losing that


----------



## Midnight_Fairy

Quackquack99 said:


> My lo had her mmr a early this month and she is fine other having a slight change in her poo.
> I felt like it was duty to vaccinate my daughter not only does it protect her it also protects vulnerable people ie pregnant ladies and babies too young for it. Yes I understand that there is a possibilty that the vaccination might not be successful but imo it was a try. If I refused to vaccinate my daughter and she fell pregnant as an adult and caught rubella which in effect caused her baby to suffer, that would be my fault. I'd never forgive myself for it.

I had the MMR twice as a child, once after the birth of my son and I am still not immune :( no idea why it failed


----------



## StaceyKor

Quackquack99 said:


> My lo had her mmr a early this month and she is fine other having a slight change in her poo.
> I felt like it was duty to vaccinate my daughter not only does it protect her it also protects vulnerable people ie pregnant ladies and babies too young for it. Yes I understand that there is a possibilty that the vaccination might not be successful but imo it was a try. If I refused to vaccinate my daughter and she fell pregnant as an adult and caught rubella which in effect caused her baby to suffer, that would be my fault. I'd never forgive myself for it.

Totally agree with this! Xx


----------



## SjandPeanut

Ok, I can't say I know much about the alleged risks but...
Is it specifically the MMR? Are the risks with vaccines in general or are the single vaccines supposed to be 'less risky'?


----------



## My_First

veganmama said:


> can i ask what counts as a credible source?
> 
> the big pro vax people like the government and pharmaceutical industry and doctors arent going to publish a study linking autism and mmr to the big media. they make so much money off vaccines they arent going to risk losing that

It's not the governments/pharmas choice what gets published. 

How else are they to be funded? Who is going to do the study?

Why the conspiracy theory though?

Wouldn't the government/pharmas be better off researching and finding an alternative to mmr if they found it to be dangerous?

Oh and I ask, how is the government gaining out of lying?

It's all a bit 'who shot JFK' isn't it?


----------



## My_First

SjandPeanut said:


> Ok, I can't say I know much about the alleged risks but...
> Is it specifically the MMR? Are the risks with vaccines in general or are the single vaccines supposed to be 'less risky'?

No there are possible risks with all vaccines, but then there are risks of eating a peanut. The separate vaccine is not as effective as the joint mmr.

Risk v benefit is a no brainer.


----------



## veganmama

My_First said:


> veganmama said:
> 
> 
> can i ask what counts as a credible source?
> 
> the big pro vax people like the government and pharmaceutical industry and doctors arent going to publish a study linking autism and mmr to the big media. they make so much money off vaccines they arent going to risk losing that
> 
> It's not the governments/pharmas choice what gets published.
> 
> How else are they to be funded? Who is going to do the study?
> 
> Why the conspiracy theory though?
> 
> Wouldn't the government/pharmas be better off researching and finding an alternative to mmr if they found it to be dangerous?
> 
> Oh and I ask, how is the government gaining out of lying?
> 
> It's all a bit 'who shot JFK' isn't it?Click to expand...

well if you believe in whole illuminati theory, the government is trying to decrease our population size through unhealthy junk food and chemicals in vaccines etc

so going by that theory thats how they benefit from lying to us

dr oz doesnt even vaccinate his kids yet he promotes vaccines...hm why?


----------



## SjandPeanut

My_First said:


> SjandPeanut said:
> 
> 
> Ok, I can't say I know much about the alleged risks but...
> Is it specifically the MMR? Are the risks with vaccines in general or are the single vaccines supposed to be 'less risky'?
> 
> No there are possible risks with all vaccines, but then there are risks of eating a peanut. The separate vaccine is not as effective as the joint mmr.
> 
> Risk v benefit is a no brainer.Click to expand...

Whilst I said that I didn't know much about the alleged risks i didn't say I was incapable of understanding. So i think the no brainer and peanut comments are dismissive and rude.

I'm not anti vaccine, or anti mmr. My mum has just completed chemo for breastcancer and there has been a measles outbreak near where we live, if she was to catch measles it could kill her.

I was simply hoping someone who is anti mmr could tell me if they believed the single vaccines to be safer and if so why.


----------



## Ozzieshunni

Omg the government is trying to control us through vaccines! Yeah right and the world is gonna end this year.


----------



## My_First

Anyone could write any theory and have some followers to it. Heck look at scientology. If illumati was in fact true, why are we all not dead? It's nonsense.


----------



## staralfur

Oh my. 

Dr. Oz doesn't vaccinate? Now I'm even more pro-vax. ;) 

But seriously...I hope anyone choosing not to vaccinate their kids is doing so because they see a legitimate risk and are not comfortable with it, not because they think the government is evil and trying to kill us?


----------



## Dk1234

Zou said:


> Dk1234 said:
> 
> 
> I wanted to do an alternate vaccine schedule but my dr talked me
> Out of it along with my mother, also a Dr.
> 
> What were their reasons against the alternate schedule? Sorry to be nosey. Like PP I'm most worried about reactions rather than autism so am considering not having MMR and boosters all in one go. That just seems such a lot for a baby. I will definitely be vaccinating as I say just considering spreading them out further. I can't think of any reasons why spreading them out would be bad? Other than the risk of catching measles, mumps and rubella in the month or so in between. This isn't really just aimed at you Dk1234. Just curious in case I've overlooked something.Click to expand...

It's shots too often. They get them once a month for a long time and they always associate the dr with vaccines.


----------



## JessPape

Irish Eyes said:


> I know the Court in Italy agreed that the jab had a direct link to this child becomming autistic which is why they paid out compensation. I don't actually worry about the autism side exactly, it's more the other reactions that I've heard happening from this jab that worries me.

The problem with Autism it has such a large persectrum (sp?) that pretty much every kid could be classifed autistic in a way at any certine time in their lifes. Becaue of this I honestly believe there are a lot of children that are Autistic, that really aren't. 

Also courts ruling and giving copensation, doesn't really say that MMR caused autism, they are just covering there butts like any other court hospital does.


----------



## Dk1234

veganmama said:


> can i ask what counts as a credible source?
> 
> the big pro vax people like the government and pharmaceutical industry and doctors arent going to publish a study linking autism and mmr to the big media. they make so much money off vaccines they arent going to risk losing that

That's a bit off the mark IMO. The government spends far more on treatment for children with autism I'd say, preschool costs, medical bills for those on Medicaid and such. Doubtful this argument is correct.


----------



## My_First

SjandPeanut said:


> My_First said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SjandPeanut said:
> 
> 
> Ok, I can't say I know much about the alleged risks but...
> Is it specifically the MMR? Are the risks with vaccines in general or are the single vaccines supposed to be 'less risky'?
> 
> No there are possible risks with all vaccines, but then there are risks of eating a peanut. The separate vaccine is not as effective as the joint mmr.
> 
> Risk v benefit is a no brainer.Click to expand...
> 
> Whilst I said that I didn't know much about the alleged risks i didn't say I was incapable of understanding. So i think the no brainer and peanut comments are dismissive and rude.
> 
> I'm not anti vaccine, or anti mmr. My mum has just completed chemo for breastcancer and there has been a measles outbreak near where we live, if she was to catch measles it could kill her.
> 
> I was simply hoping someone who is anti mmr could tell me if they believed the single vaccines to be safer and if so why.Click to expand...

And I wasn't intentionally being rude. There is no evidence to suggest its safer however I believe some people think it is and are happier giving their children separate vaccinations.

You asked whether it was vaccines in general and was analogising peanut and vaccine risk ie there is a risk in all our parenting choices. I of course am unsure how much detail you are aware of and again apologise if you thought I was being flippant.

My risk v benefit comment stands it is a no brainer and it was re vax in general not the splitting of the mmr, it wasn't meant as a criticism on you.


----------



## veganmama

were not all dead because theres more us then them

can you really justify with half the ingredients they put in vaccines though? no, most of whats is in there is total nonsense...or does it serve a more evil purpose


----------



## My_First

Actually yes I can justify every ingredient as standalone in its quantities are found/ exposed to us higher in our environments than found in vax.

I'm on my phone so can't get to the link, but can send it to you if you like?


----------



## veganmama

actually yeah thatd be neat, thanks


----------



## xemmax

veganmama said:


> were not all dead because theres more us then them
> 
> can you really justify with half the ingredients they put in vaccines though? no, most of whats is in there is total nonsense...or does it serve a more evil purpose

Unless you're a biochemist, probably not. I'm not sure that supports the theory that the contents serve an 'evil' purpose though.


----------



## veganmama

well it does though, like formaldehyde whats the purpose of that? its only known to be detrimental to health


----------



## Jaylynne

Omg... The government is trying to kill us with junk food?! Are they chasing us with an ice cream truck? Where would they get their salaries if we all croak. 

I vax. I'll be doing more research for the mmr but personally. I'd prefer to risk a small amount that sit and do nothing and a bigger risk of my child getting ill. Herd immunity can't work if everyone thinks the government is trying to kill them.


----------



## xemmax

> Why is formaldehyde in some vaccines?
> Formaldehyde has a long history of safe use in the manufacture of certain viral and bacterial vaccines. It is used to inactivate viruses so that they don&#8217;t cause disease (e.g., influenza virus to make influenza vaccine) and to detoxify bacterial toxins, such as the toxin used to make diphtheria vaccine. Formaldehyde is diluted during the vaccine manufacturing process, but residual quantities of formaldehyde may be found in some current vaccines. The average amount of formaldehyde to which a young infant could be exposed to at one time through vaccines is considered to be safe.
> 
> Formaldehyde is also produced naturally in the human body as a part of normal functions of the body to produce energy and build the basic materials needed for important life processes.*This includes making amino acids, which are the building blocks of proteins that the body needs.
> 
> Formaldehyde is also found in the environment and is present in different ways.*It is used in building materials, as a preservative in labs and to produce many household products.
> 
> *The body continuously processes formaldehyde, both from what it makes on its own and from what it has been exposed to in the environment. The amount of formaldehyde in a person&#8217;s body depends on their weight; babies have lower amounts than adults.*Studies have shown that for a newborn of average weight of 6 -8 pounds, the amount of formaldehyde in their body is 50-70 times higher than the upper amount that they could receive from a single dose of a vaccine or from vaccines administered over time (1,2,3).
> *
> Excessive exposure to formaldehyde may cause cancer, but the latest research has shown that the highest risk is from the air when formaldehyde is inhaled from breathing, and occurs more frequently in people who routinely use formaldehyde in their jobs.*There is no evidence linking cancer to infrequent exposure to tiny amounts of formaldehyde via injection as occurs with vaccines.

https://www.fda.gov/BiologicsBloodVaccines/SafetyAvailability/VaccineSafety/ucm187810.htm


----------



## Sarah lo

Oh dear, Edward Jenner must be rolling in his grave right about now...


----------



## StaceyKor

veganmama said:


> were not all dead because theres more us then them
> 
> can you really justify with half the ingredients they put in vaccines though? no, most of whats is in there is total nonsense...or does it serve a more evil purpose

Many of the 'ingredients' are there to ensure vaccine stability and ensure ot ellicits the correct immune response in the recipient. There are many ways in which our body fights disease and the vaccine must be designed to mimic the infection itself in order to ensure our body produces the correct antibodies. Hence the need for so many ingredients. Its not just as simple as injecting a little bit of measles, TB, tetanus etc and there we go, we have immunity. The body has to think the host is truely infected so it triggers an immune response. Vaccine development is a very, very specialised area. To say that there is some kind of evil behind it honestly baffles me. All drugs have a range of ingredients not directly associated with treating whatever is wrong with the patient. All drugs, like vaccines, also carry a risk of negative side effects, but MMR seems to get all the negative publicity. All 3 viruses, measles, mumps and rubella may not have high mortality rates, but the long term health effects can destroy lives. As a PP said, not only for the infected individual but for society in general...eg. Pregnant women x


----------



## Jaylynne

Sarah lo said:


> Oh dear, Edward Jenner must be rolling in his grave right about now...

Do you know what's sad, that I first thought of Bruce Jenner instead of the smallpox vax pioneer. Maybe the government is trying to kill our brain cells through airing reality tv.


----------



## StaceyKor

Jaylynne said:


> Omg... The government is trying to kill us with junk food?! Are they chasing us with an ice cream truck? Where would they get their salaries if we all croak.
> 
> I vax. I'll be doing more research for the mmr but personally. I'd prefer to risk a small amount that sit and do nothing and a bigger risk of my child getting ill. Herd immunity can't work if everyone thinks the government is trying to kill them.

Exactly...the whole idea of herd immunity ONLY works when the vast majority of the population is protected. Scare mongering puts so many lives at risk x


----------



## Jaylynne

Herd immunity should only be used by those that for medical reasons cannot receive the vaccinations. To rely on others to vax simply because they think the pharmaceutical companies want to make money to me sort of seems...self serving? I'm not sure if that is the right term but it doesn't sit well with me. It's like "hey you risk your child so mine can share protection because I don't want him to be vaccinated for ___ reason".


----------



## veganmama

noones relying on your vaccinated children im certainly not


----------



## veganmama

but to end this debate since the original post isnt about vaxing or not i think its best to stop here


----------



## JleStar

Ozzieshunni said:


> JleStar said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ozzieshunni said:
> 
> 
> Eeek, sorry....I don't think the daily mail is worth the paper it's printed on. I'll wait for scientific evidence.
> 
> The evidence is in the countless parent testimonial. I will believe my neighbor, sister and friends experiences over flawed biased "scientific" studies that only serve to push an already corrupt pharmaceutical/health BUSINESS (not practice). Just my opinion...and by the way if you dig deep you will find evidence. :thumbup:Click to expand...
> 
> I don't care. I will vaccinate my son. He has a heart condition. I will not risk anything with him that could make his heart strain. I think not to vaccinate is irresponsible. That's MY opinion.Click to expand...

You are right...it is your choice and your opinion matters when it comes to your child...what I find irresponsible is saying that vaccinations are safe. That has NEVER been proven


----------



## JleStar

My_First said:


> veganmama said:
> 
> 
> can i ask what counts as a credible source?
> 
> the big pro vax people like the government and pharmaceutical industry and doctors arent going to publish a study linking autism and mmr to the big media. they make so much money off vaccines they arent going to risk losing that
> 
> It's not the governments/pharmas choice what gets published.
> 
> How else are they to be funded? Who is going to do the study?
> 
> Why the conspiracy theory though?
> 
> Wouldn't the government/pharmas be better off researching and finding an
> 
> alternative to mmr if they found it to be dangerous?
> 
> 
> 
> Oh and I ask, how is the government gaining out of lying?
> 
> It's all a bit 'who shot JFK' isn't it?Click to expand...

I don't think it is fair to say "conspiracy" and dismiss someone as "crazy" for thinking outside the box. You ask great questions...why this and why that? Exactly...keep asking...the world and people in it are not all peaches and cream sometimes. There is a lot of good but there is also the ugly. I am no surprised of anything these days. 

Sometimes hearing some thing that is against your own perception of the reality of the world hurts your ego solo you become defensive and say things like, "why the conspiracy theory?" to each his own.


----------



## sequeena

We had Thomas's MMR done when he was 1 year and 1 week old. No reaction, no sleeping problems, no illness afterwards etc. My great niece had hers the same day (she was almost 13 months) and had a small reaction. Redness, soreness and being out of sorts in general for a while.

I've always vaxed Thomas and haven't delayed. It's up to you of course but I wouldn't take the risk.


----------



## Dk1234

I really don't believe there is a conspiracy, the government wants you vaccinated because it's expensive to treat people with horrible illnesses that occur because of no vaccinations.


----------



## Amber4

I will be vacinnating my LO. As a PP put these diseases kill people and autism does not. That's how I see it. I think it's wrong personally not to vaccinate and can't see why people choose not to. I've not looked it and I'm not trying to cause an arguments with anyone who wont vaccinate. I just guess I would not like my LO to catch these diseases. My nurse told me she hated giving a baby injections and felt terrible when they screamed... But then she went on to say what she saw was much worse if children weren't vaccinated and got ill. :flower:


----------



## Bella_Bee

Drug companies routinely make "campaign donations" to aid politicians into power. Even without a "New World Order", the corruption is clear.

On the subject of reputable sources, I find this particularly interesting:

"In 2002, the Guardian revealed that British and U.S. scientists are putting their names to papers they have not written. The papers are Ghosted or co-written by employees of the drug companies, then signed for a handsome fee by respectable researchers. In some cases, the researcher have not even seen the raw data on which the papers conclusions are based. A pharmacologist who has studied the practice told the Guardian: 'It may well be that 50% of the articles on drugs in the major journals across all areas of medicine are not written in a way the average person expects...Three years ago, eleven of the biggest medical journals drew up a code on conflicts of interest. It is plainly not working. Since it was published an analysis of the Journal of American Medical Association revealed that 87% of the scientists who write the clinical guidelines used by doctors for prescribing drugs have financial ties to drug companies. Over half of them are connected to the companies whose drugs they are reviewing."
George Monbiot, The Guardian, 2/24/04


----------



## Bella_Bee

I also want to add that autism is not the only risk involved in the MMR. Mutated, more sinsiter forms of the diseases are a risk, deaths have occured, brain damage, gut damage... The list goes on. 

Yes, vaccines can and do kill healthy children. It is completely inaccurate to say otherwise. It's not common (neither is death from Measles, Mumps and Rubella) but it happens and this is why we must make informed choices - so that we can be confident, either way. Parenting in fear is not a good idea.

I don't rely on vaccinated people/children to avoid illness. I have no fear of these illnesses. If my children get them, they will enjoy lifelong natural immunity, a more robust immuine system, lower risk of cancer and their children will also enjoy many benefits as a result. 

I think it's a massive misconception that people who do not vaccinate are trying to keep their children away from these diseases. Not only do we believe vaccines to be harmful, we believe most normal human diseases to be beneficial to otherwise healthy people. However, most are entirely avoidable with good, healthy lifestyles.

I think people fundementally misunderstand disease and infection in many ways. Coming into contact with disease does not guarantee infection. Some people are even immune, naturally. There are people in this world who are immune to HIV/AIDS! There is no such thing as a 100% infection rate and you may well be surprised to learn how low many infection rates actually are.


----------



## Dk1234

My husband is a politician and this is just getting silly. Politicians have children you know, I don't think there is a single soul willing to put the entire child population including their own children at an unnecessary risk for campaign money. They could get money for supporting far better things. Vaccines aren't an issue on any ballot so drug companies making campaign donations in return for support makes absolutely no sense. This is getting a little out there.


----------



## JleStar

Ozzieshunni said:


> Omg the government is trying to control us through vaccines! Yeah right and the world is gonna end this year.

You said it. Lol


----------



## JleStar

Jaylynne said:


> Omg... The government is trying to kill us with junk food?! Are they chasing us with an ice cream truck? Where would they get their salaries if we all croak.
> 
> I vax. I'll be doing more research for the mmr but personally. I'd prefer to risk a small amount that sit and do nothing and a bigger risk of my child getting ill. Herd immunity can't work if everyone thinks the government is trying to kill them.

Your comment about the truck was kind of funny...but seriously the question is where would they get there salaries if we all croak?

To first address this I want to remind all to look at their food labels. If you cannot pronounce it and its not natural it is probably bad for you (aspartame MSG for example) all junk food has either high fat, salt or sugar and usually also has a bunch of crap made in a lab to make it flavor packed and so addictive.....so think about it...do they want to kill us with junk food?
Hmmmm
High sugar can cause diabetes/obesity/cancers
High fat can cause cholesterol..leading to heart attacks
High salt ---high blood pressure

Do they want to kill you....no..they want you to barely be healthy so they can then sell you drugs to make you all better...thats how they make their money.


----------



## Jaylynne

They're not forcing doritos down your mouth. Government programs only pay for healthy foods such as produce and milk and cheese for the most part. This is :dohh: worthy. 

Let me get this straight because this is bonkers to me. Bella_bee, you would RATHER your child get the actual illness and enjoy a robust lifetime of immunity so you say. Do you realize that death, disability, and lifelong health complications can arise from that? Look at polio. They didn't enjoy immunity, they were crippled if not dead in the majority of cases. Give me the vax any day. Your view is baffling me.


----------



## TennisGal

I think it's important to add that people who choose to vaccinate do not expect their children not to catch these diseases. What they hope for is that if they do - that they will have much less severe symptoms. Therefore they could have lifelong immunity, lower risks of cancer etc..but at the same time, hopefully not the terrifying dangers of the disease itself.


----------



## pinklightbulb

For me, the risk of my boys contracting measles, mumps or rubella is slim to none. There have not been outbreaks of any of these where I am from for a long time. I won't submit to the MMR vaccine, as I am another who has seen a child change overnight after it. That alone is proof enough for me that it isn't as safe as one would think. There is no proof that the MMR causes/triggers autism. At the same time, there is not enough proof for me that it doesn't, either.


----------



## Dk1234

I'd be willing to bet that there have t been outbreaks because most people vaccinate their children where you live. It's scary to think about where we could be in 15 years if everyone. Chooses not to. Back down to a life expectancy of 35????? I'm all for an alternate schedule if you wish but to not vaccinate all together is just dangereous IMO.


----------



## TriChick

Bella_Bee said:


> I also want to add that autism is not the only risk involved in the MMR. Mutated, more sinsiter forms of the diseases are a risk, deaths have occured, brain damage, gut damage... The list goes on.
> 
> Yes, vaccines can and do kill healthy children. It is completely inaccurate to say otherwise. It's not common (neither is death from Measles, Mumps and Rubella) but it happens and this is why we must make informed choices - so that we can be confident, either way. Parenting in fear is not a good idea.
> 
> *I don't rely on vaccinated people/children to avoid illness. I have no fear of these illnesses. If my children get them, they will enjoy lifelong natural immunity, a more robust immuine system, lower risk of cancer and their children will also enjoy many benefits as a result. *
> I think it's a massive misconception that people who do not vaccinate are trying to keep their children away from these diseases. Not only do we believe vaccines to be harmful, we believe most normal human diseases to be beneficial to otherwise healthy people. *However, most are entirely avoidable with good, healthy lifestyles.*I think people fundementally misunderstand disease and infection in many ways. Coming into contact with disease does not guarantee infection. Some people are even immune, naturally. There are people in this world who are immune to HIV/AIDS! There is no such thing as a 100% infection rate and you may well be surprised to learn how low many infection rates actually are.

You DO realize that these aren't your run-of-the-mill head colds, correct? The effects of many of these disease are life-altering, if not ending. Look at your keyboard, your coffee cup, the door handle of your local public restroom. Can you guarantee that none of these surfaces harbor an infectious bacteria or virus? While I believe that leading a healthy lifestyle is beneficial to everyone for obvious reasons, I do not believe it makes a person superhuman with the ability to fend off everything that comes their way. Yikes.


----------



## Dk1234

Slim chance maybe, none, never the case.


----------



## JleStar

Jaylynne said:


> They're not forcing doritos down your mouth. Government programs only pay for healthy foods such as produce and milk and cheese for the most part. This is :dohh: worthy.
> 
> Let me get this straight because this is bonkers to me. Bella_bee, you would RATHER your child get the actual illness and enjoy a robust lifetime of immunity so you say. Do you realize that death, disability, and lifelong health complications can arise from that? Look at polio. They didn't enjoy immunity, they were crippled if not dead in the majority of cases. Give me the vax any day. Your view is baffling me.

:dohh: back to you honey...as a matter of fact double :dohh::dohh: lol
Look I am not wanting to pick a fight but come on...my husband and I make decent money and it's even hard for us to afford eating healthy. 
Food that is bad for you is usually cheap or on sale...or provided but the govt...believe me I work as a teacher and I see the vegetable on Fridays being the tomato sauce on the pizza not to mention the milk served to the kids being chock full of growth hormone..are they forcing doritos down your throat...no. But It sure is cheaper in this world to be unhealthy. And you know what Doritos are the "healthy" snack on Monday's just because they are baked. Again, an unhealthy population benefits the ones making the drugs. Just saying lol


----------



## pinklightbulb

Most healthy children will come through measles, mumps or rubella just fine in developed countries. Even if my sons were to contract any of these, I will trust their natural immune systems over a vaccine, which is not a guarantee of immunity anyway. I don't trust the MMR, plain and simple.


----------



## Jaylynne

Pack a lunch?


----------



## Dk1234

The government requires nutrition facts to be provided at restaurants now and even freaking mcdonalds has changed the happy meal to offer healthier things. Healthy foods are cheaper because they are just that, cheaper to produce and keep. The less you spend, the less quality you get, it only makes sense. It isn't a conspiracy it is common sense.


----------



## Jaylynne

I find junk foods more expensive tbh. I just got this tonight to make baby food. This will last LO all month and then some to make apple crisp for us and I got it for under $30. Seems cheap to me. 
https://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd390/jaylynned2/9676B17B-0601-485B-8A1B-A85310CC8EF9-4678-000002658D8F1FBB_zps7bde14dc.jpg

A bag of doritos for school is over $.60. An apple is $.30 on sale or in bulk. Bananas even cheaper. I would always pack my lunch for work. Cheaper and more nutritious. 


Totally a tangent. Sorry OP. But just living a healthy lifestyle doesn't make you superhuman.


----------



## JleStar

Dk1234 said:


> The government requires nutrition facts to be provided at restaurants now and even freaking mcdonalds has changed the happy meal to offer healthier things. Healthy foods are cheaper because they are just that, cheaper to produce and keep. The less you spend, the less quality you get, it only makes sense. It isn't a conspiracy it is common sense.

Thank your reply and pointing out the obvious. My post was in regards to a pp question about govt killing us with junk food. No, they just want you sick to sell you drugs.
And not all govt is bad...I know this. I am not delusional. 
Question..will knowing the amount of calories in a big Mac stop that single mom to buy it for her three kids...it may, but probably not. 
Your last statement is so important about spending and quality...precisely, I guess only the rich deserve to be healthy. Last time I checked we were all born on earth and deserve to afford the same natural, non pesticide, hormone injected meat, vegetable and fruits...but I guess it's common sense not conspiracy.


----------



## JleStar

Jaylynne said:


> I find junk foods more expensive tbh. I just got this tonight to make baby food. This will last LO all month and then some to make apple crisp for us and I got it for under $30. Seems cheap to me.
> https://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd390/jaylynned2/9676B17B-0601-485B-8A1B-A85310CC8EF9-4678-000002658D8F1FBB_zps7bde14dc.jpg
> 
> A bag of doritos for school is over $.60. An apple is $.30 on sale or in bulk. Bananas even cheaper. I would always pack my lunch for work. Cheaper and more nutritious.
> 
> 
> Totally a tangent. Sorry OP. But just living a healthy lifestyle doesn't make you superhuman.

 Are those organic sweety...cause that's an entire other debate. :haha:


----------



## Bella_Bee

I'm fully aware of the course of each disease. I do not consider Measles, Mumps or Rubella to be serious any more than I would consider chicken pox or the flu to be serious. A healthy body is actually much stronger than we often realise. But it starts at the beginning - unvaccinated people are generally more robust, require less medication and fight both small and large scale illnesses with greater ease. Your diet doesn't have to be junk to be bad for you. Dairy products are incredibly bad for humans, though some cultures have adapted to be able to digest it, it still takes a toll om the human body, making it more susceptible to general ailments and more serious diseases. Chemicals in non organic food have been demonstrated as toxic and carcinogenic. The western world is far more sickly than it ought to be. The point, though, is that we are capable of fighting these diseases and it is rare to succumb. In the UK, nobody worried about chicken pox but in the US there is a vaccine. It's considered to be less risky to have the vaccine than to have chicken pox, much like how the UK feels about measles. The reality, however, is that neither are worth worrying about for the vast, vast majority of the population.

And politicians absolutely do take campaign donations from drug companies:https://edition.cnn.com/2011/09/15/opinion/krumholz-beckel-perry-pharmaceutical/index.html

It's not ridiculous at all. It happens and it raises important questions.

I can vaguely appreciate that many people are less inclined to question the status quo and believe that the government would have anything less than our best interests at heart. It may sound like conspiracy theories, but it is an unfortunate reality that power and money are large motivators and few people are immune, those who are don't tend to pursue high power careers. It's also an uncomfortable reality that, while the things we put into our body (vaccines included) determine our short and long term health, most of what we consider to be good for us, it actually making us sick.

Ahmish communities, for example, have all of the same illnesses and are made from the same stuff as the rest of us. But, they are considerably healthier and almost never require drugs and hospital care. They have vastly reduced rates of asthma, diabetes, cancer and so on. They don't vaccinate, they grow their own food and they don't subscribe the the notion that the government is who we should be trusting to take care of us. They take care of themselves, regardless of current policy or social perspective.


----------



## JleStar

I apologize to the op for the derailment of this thread. It certainly went a strange way but an important way. Debate is healthy! We should always debate and THINK for goodness sake. Thanks ladies for your arguments..I appreciate them even if they are not aligned with my beliefs. We are all crazy moms trying to figure out what's best for our LO's. These subjects will always hit a nerve because we all want to know this we are doing the best we can for our children and when someone has a difference of opinions all the egos start to protect themselves. It's ok. We are human. I just pray that are LO's grow healthy and strong and we are protected from those who intend us harm.

Good night ladies!
Sleep is important.:flower:
Peace


----------



## JleStar

Bella_Bee said:


> I'm fully aware of the course of each disease. I do not consider Measles, Mumps or Rubella to be serious any more than I would consider chicken pox or the flu to be serious. A healthy body is actually much stronger than we often realise. But it starts at the beginning - unvaccinated people are generally more robust, require less medication and fight both small and large scale illnesses with greater ease. Your diet doesn't have to be junk to be bad for you. Dairy products are incredibly bad for humans, though some cultures have adapted to be able to digest it, it still takes a toll om the human body, making it more susceptible to general ailments and more serious diseases. Chemicals in non organic food have been demonstrated as toxic and carcinogenic. The western world is far more sickly than it ought to be. The point, though, is that we are capable of fighting these diseases and it is rare to succumb. In the UK, nobody worried about chicken pox but in the US there is a vaccine. It's considered to be less risky to have the vaccine than to have chicken pox, much like how the UK feels about measles. The reality, however, is that neither are worth worrying about for the vast, vast majority of the population.
> 
> And politicians absolutely do take campaign donations from drug companies:https://edition.cnn.com/2011/09/15/opinion/krumholz-beckel-perry-pharmaceutical/index.html
> 
> It's not ridiculous at all. It happens and it raises important questions.
> 
> I can vaguely appreciate that many people are less inclined to question the status quo and believe that the government would have anything less than our best interests at heart. It may sound like conspiracy theories, but it is an unfortunate reality that power and money are large motivators and few people are immune, those who are don't tend to pursue high power careers. It's also an uncomfortable reality that, while the things we put into our body (vaccines included) determine our short and long term health, most of what we consider to be good for us, it actually making us sick.
> 
> Ahmish communities, for example, have all of the same illnesses and are made from the same stuff as the rest of us. But, they are considerably healthier and almost never require drugs and hospital care. They have vastly reduced rates of asthma, diabetes, cancer and so on. They don't vaccinate, they grow their own food and they don't subscribe the the notion that the government is who we should be trusting to take care of us. They take care of themselves, regardless of current policy or social perspective.

Yes! So glad you are here. Very eloquently put:hugs:


----------



## Bella_Bee

Jaylynne - it's fairly well known that the polio jab itself was quite the scandal.

"I think to release certain information prematurely is not a public service. There is too much scaring the public unnecessarily. Oh, your children were injected by a cancer virus."
Albert Sabin, Developer of the Oral Polio Vaccine

Polio disappeared in some european countries that refused to vaccinate around the same time that the jab supposedly erradiacated the disease in the US and other european countries. Mortality rates had already dropped rapidly. Since the introduction of the vaccine, almost every reported case of polio has been as a result of the vaccine itself. In fact, in the US, the number of reported cases of Polio was higher after vaccines were rolled out than before...

The story of the measles/MMR vaccine isn't all that different. Vaccinated individuals are 14 times more likely to get measles. It has also set a dangerous precedent... Children under one, as mentioned, are significantly more susceptible to the disease's side effects and yet, thanks to the vaccine, the number of cases in under ones is on the rise due to the mother not passing on immunity (the vaccine does not work in the same way that having had the disease does) via breastfeeding. It was such a common childhood disease that, like chicken pox, most people had had it. The immunity passed on also helped to lessen the effects of the disease. Vaccines interrupted this and actually made the disease more sinister. It's a cycle that needs to be broken.

In 2000, members of the Association of American Physicians and Surgeons (AAPS) unanimously voted for an end to all government-mandated childhood vaccines. Jane M. Orient, M.D., AAPS executive director, said: "Children face the possibility of death or serious long-term adverse effects from mandated vaccines."


----------



## Jaylynne

Cite your sources.


----------



## Jaylynne

The aaps is hardly mainstream and is considered dubious by other medical professional groups. Their purpose is to get rid of government mandates with medicine.


----------



## Bella_Bee

I'll be back with sources tomorrow evening (UK time) as I have also promised links/sources to another lady on here. I find quoting news articles easier on my phone than posting graphs etc. so need a minute to get on the laptop.

You are welcome, meanwhile, to attempt to prove me wrong.


----------



## Bella_Bee

Jaylynne said:


> The aaps is hardly mainstream and is considered dubious by other medical professional groups. Their purpose is to get rid of government mandates with medicine.

Of course they are, they don't take handouts from pharmaceuticals like almost every other medical organisation in the US. They're still qualified doctors, still studied at all of the same places but it's easy to discredit smaller, less powerful organisations.


----------



## Jaylynne

I'll let the WHO and AAP do the disproving for me. In 2003, they refuted the AAPS claims on vaccinations being harmful basing it on poor methodology, lack of scientific evidence and falsehoods.


----------



## tu123

Bella_Bee said:


> Jaylynne - it's fairly well known that the polio jab itself was quite the scandal.
> 
> "I think to release certain information prematurely is not a public service. There is too much scaring the public unnecessarily. Oh, your children were injected by a cancer virus."
> Albert Sabin, Developer of the Oral Polio Vaccine
> 
> Polio disappeared in some european countries that refused to vaccinate around the same time that the jab supposedly erradiacated the disease in the US and other european countries. Mortality rates had already dropped rapidly. Since the introduction of the vaccine, almost every reported case of polio has been as a result of the vaccine itself. In fact, in the US, the number of reported cases of Polio was higher after vaccines were rolled out than before...
> 
> The story of the measles/MMR vaccine isn't all that different. Vaccinated individuals are 14 times more likely to get measles. It has also set a dangerous precedent... Children under one, as mentioned, are significantly more susceptible to the disease's side effects and yet, thanks to the vaccine, the number of cases in under ones is on the rise due to the mother not passing on immunity (the vaccine does not work in the same way that having had the disease does) via breastfeeding. It was such a common childhood disease that, like chicken pox, most people had had it. The immunity passed on also helped to lessen the effects of the disease. Vaccines interrupted this and actually made the disease more sinister. It's a cycle that needs to be broken.
> 
> In 2000, members of the Association of American Physicians and Surgeons (AAPS) unanimously voted for an end to all government-mandated childhood vaccines. Jane M. Orient, M.D., AAPS executive director, said: "Children face the possibility of death or serious long-term adverse effects from mandated vaccines."

Do you not think if everything you have just written was so true and significant enough that we wouldn't bother with vaccines? The NHS bneeds to make cuts anywhere, the science and research just isn't credible enough to stop vaccinating, of course that could change.


----------



## tu123

Jaylynne said:


> I'll let the WHO and AAP do the disproving for me. In 2003, they refuted the AAPS claims on vaccinations being harmful basing it on poor methodology, lack of scientific evidence and falsehoods.

This is it. Until there is reliable research alot of antivacc arguments are mere vague correlations.


----------



## SabrinaKat

I'd like Bella_Bee to please cite ALL of her references, if possible. 

I think, obviously, it's each parent's decision whether to vaccinate or not, I guess, but it was due to countless generations of vaccination that smallpox was finally eradicated and that WAS a killer....

best wishes


----------



## Dragonfly

Reading the vaccine insert is rather unsettling to. 

Every drug thats taken off the market by the FDA must have first been approved by them...


----------



## StaceyKor

Reading the insert of the majority of drugs...even pain killers, can be unsettling. As I said before most drugs have possible side effects, MMR is no different. These side effects are rare possibilities. It is part of modern medicine x


----------



## Dragonfly

StaceyKor said:


> Reading the insert of the majority of drugs...even pain killers, can be unsettling. As I said before most drugs have possible side effects, MMR is no different. These side effects are rare possibilities. It is part of modern medicine x

Not rare enough for more than one to get them in my family. Some kids are susceptible others are not. I am not anti vax and not pro vax...I am for informed.


----------



## StaceyKor

Dragonfly said:


> StaceyKor said:
> 
> 
> Reading the insert of the majority of drugs...even pain killers, can be unsettling. As I said before most drugs have possible side effects, MMR is no different. These side effects are rare possibilities. It is part of modern medicine x
> 
> Not rare enough for more than one to get them in my family. Some kids are susceptible others are not. I am not anti vax and not pro vax...I am for informed.Click to expand...

I totally agree that we should keep ourselves informed, I definately dont dispute that. I also agree that its a sad fact that some people do have a genetic predisposition to certain drug side effects. However, the majority of people have no reaction and go on to be well protected for live, so there is still a place for the vaccine IMO


----------



## Bella_Bee

tu123 said:


> Bella_Bee said:
> 
> 
> Jaylynne - it's fairly well known that the polio jab itself was quite the scandal.
> 
> "I think to release certain information prematurely is not a public service. There is too much scaring the public unnecessarily. Oh, your children were injected by a cancer virus."
> Albert Sabin, Developer of the Oral Polio Vaccine
> 
> Polio disappeared in some european countries that refused to vaccinate around the same time that the jab supposedly erradiacated the disease in the US and other european countries. Mortality rates had already dropped rapidly. Since the introduction of the vaccine, almost every reported case of polio has been as a result of the vaccine itself. In fact, in the US, the number of reported cases of Polio was higher after vaccines were rolled out than before...
> 
> The story of the measles/MMR vaccine isn't all that different. Vaccinated individuals are 14 times more likely to get measles. It has also set a dangerous precedent... Children under one, as mentioned, are significantly more susceptible to the disease's side effects and yet, thanks to the vaccine, the number of cases in under ones is on the rise due to the mother not passing on immunity (the vaccine does not work in the same way that having had the disease does) via breastfeeding. It was such a common childhood disease that, like chicken pox, most people had had it. The immunity passed on also helped to lessen the effects of the disease. Vaccines interrupted this and actually made the disease more sinister. It's a cycle that needs to be broken.
> 
> In 2000, members of the Association of American Physicians and Surgeons (AAPS) unanimously voted for an end to all government-mandated childhood vaccines. Jane M. Orient, M.D., AAPS executive director, said: "Children face the possibility of death or serious long-term adverse effects from mandated vaccines."
> 
> Do you not think if everything you have just written was so true and significant enough that we wouldn't bother with vaccines? The NHS bneeds to make cuts anywhere, the science and research just isn't credible enough to stop vaccinating, of course that could change.Click to expand...

Sadly not. The NHS takes significant payments and "gifts" from pharmaceuticals looking to push and advertise their products. As much as £10,000 per GP.

GPs are awarded extra bonus payments for achieving 70 and 90% vaccination rates in 2 and 5 year olds.

Some opt out, some don't.


----------



## Ozzieshunni

I came back to this thread after a night.

Junk food? Illuminati? Government conspiracy? Do you hear yourselves?

Children die EVERY DAY from preventable diseases. Have you seen a child suffering from whooping cough? Measles? Mumps? And you would willingly subject your child to be exposed to those sort of things? Yes, I'm sorry, I know my choice. I'd rather risk vaccination than risk watching him suffer and perhaps die from things I could have prevented.


----------



## Midnight_Fairy

Ozzieshunni said:


> I came back to this thread after a night.
> 
> Junk food? Illuminati? Government conspiracy? Do you hear yourselves?
> 
> Children die EVERY DAY from preventable diseases. Have you seen a child suffering from whooping cough? Measles? Mumps? And you would willingly subject your child to be exposed to those sort of things? Yes, I'm sorry, I know my choice. I'd rather risk vaccination than risk watching him suffer and perhaps die from things I could have prevented.

You said it better than me. These diseases ARE killers and are life threatening, a huge outbreak would be devastating for the non immune and volunable people.


----------



## StaceyKor

Midnight_Fairy said:


> Ozzieshunni said:
> 
> 
> I came back to this thread after a night.
> 
> Junk food? Illuminati? Government conspiracy? Do you hear yourselves?
> 
> Children die EVERY DAY from preventable diseases. Have you seen a child suffering from whooping cough? Measles? Mumps? And you would willingly subject your child to be exposed to those sort of things? Yes, I'm sorry, I know my choice. I'd rather risk vaccination than risk watching him suffer and perhaps die from things I could have prevented.
> 
> You said it better than me. These diseases ARE killers and are life threatening, a huge outbreak would be devastating for the non immune and volunable people.Click to expand...

Exactly...very well put. The conspiracy theory thing has me baffled to say the least x


----------



## Ozzieshunni

And yes, I am well aware of cases where the child should not be vaccinated for medical reasons. Please note that I did not say they should be vaccinated as well.

HOWEVER, I read that a woman with a child with an egg allergy had the MMR in hospital and was monitored for a certain amount of time and he is fine.


----------



## My_First

Bella_Bee said:


> tu123 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bella_Bee said:
> 
> 
> Jaylynne - it's fairly well known that the polio jab itself was quite the scandal.
> 
> "I think to release certain information prematurely is not a public service. There is too much scaring the public unnecessarily. Oh, your children were injected by a cancer virus."
> Albert Sabin, Developer of the Oral Polio Vaccine
> 
> Polio disappeared in some european countries that refused to vaccinate around the same time that the jab supposedly erradiacated the disease in the US and other european countries. Mortality rates had already dropped rapidly. Since the introduction of the vaccine, almost every reported case of polio has been as a result of the vaccine itself. In fact, in the US, the number of reported cases of Polio was higher after vaccines were rolled out than before...
> 
> The story of the measles/MMR vaccine isn't all that different. Vaccinated individuals are 14 times more likely to get measles. It has also set a dangerous precedent... Children under one, as mentioned, are significantly more susceptible to the disease's side effects and yet, thanks to the vaccine, the number of cases in under ones is on the rise due to the mother not passing on immunity (the vaccine does not work in the same way that having had the disease does) via breastfeeding. It was such a common childhood disease that, like chicken pox, most people had had it. The immunity passed on also helped to lessen the effects of the disease. Vaccines interrupted this and actually made the disease more sinister. It's a cycle that needs to be broken.
> 
> In 2000, members of the Association of American Physicians and Surgeons (AAPS) unanimously voted for an end to all government-mandated childhood vaccines. Jane M. Orient, M.D., AAPS executive director, said: "Children face the possibility of death or serious long-term adverse effects from mandated vaccines."
> 
> Do you not think if everything you have just written was so true and significant enough that we wouldn't bother with vaccines? The NHS bneeds to make cuts anywhere, the science and research just isn't credible enough to stop vaccinating, of course that could change.Click to expand...
> 
> Sadly not. The NHS takes significant payments and "gifts" from pharmaceuticals looking to push and advertise their products. As much as £10,000 per GP.
> 
> GPs are awarded extra bonus payments for achieving 70 and 90% vaccination rates in 2 and 5 year olds.
> 
> Some opt out, some don't.Click to expand...

Right, so why does it matter if they take 'gifts'? All the vaccines have been licenced, passed all the regulatory bodies, its just a matter of which which drug company gets there first.

Its not like something is discovered and sold within two days. This takes DECADES of clinicial trials, heck they have to get their money back somehow.

Also, who else do you expect to fund studies into drugs? The Government surely hasnt got that sort of cash, so companies do it and companies exist to make money. They still have to pass testing before it goes to market.

And so what if they get bonuses to reach targets, pretty much every organisation does, because they want to get, as much as we can, eradication of these diseases.

We live in a capatalist society, people are in the business to make money. If people dont like that then they are welcome to join a self sufficient community or a communist country.

People mention money/Drs and Pharmas like its a big hush secret. Its everyones business to make money, its the way our modern society is.


----------



## pinklightbulb

I will have my 2 year old vax'd when he is school age and not before but he will never receive the MMR. My OH's son was affected badly by it and to him it isn't worth the (IMO much higher) risk of the same thing happening to either of our sons that we have together. If that makes me an irresponsible mother, so be it. I'd rather be thought of as an irresponsible parent by others than take the risk the MMR presents to my sons, over the much smaller risk they could contract one of these diseases and die.


----------



## Bella_Bee

Ozzieshunni said:


> I came back to this thread after a night.
> 
> Junk food? Illuminati? Government conspiracy? Do you hear yourselves?
> 
> Children die EVERY DAY from preventable diseases. Have you seen a child suffering from whooping cough? Measles? Mumps? And you would willingly subject your child to be exposed to those sort of things? Yes, I'm sorry, I know my choice. I'd rather risk vaccination than risk watching him suffer and perhaps die from things I could have prevented.

90% of measles deaths are in the vaccinated. If you understand statistics you will know this is not simply explained away by "more people vaccinated" either. 

I appreciate that you are making the choice that you know/feel to be best. But I think you're either unaware of or simply not mentioning some vital information.

Also, the HPA seems to suggest that there has only been 1 death from measles in children since 1940 (nearly 30 years prior to the first vaccine) in the UK. This is inferred by the number they claim to have been adults at the time of death. As we know, measles is much more serious in adults. Like chicken pox.

It is surprising, then, that a vaccine would be knowingly administered, after various studies have demonstrated that immunity wanes with time, that would delay onset to the teenage/adult years.


Yes, everyone I will be back with links/sources. I am a little disappointed that nobody has attempted to demonstrate vaccine safety and efficacy with links of their own, instead opting to rely on information from the WHO. Be your own expert, please - you can only trust yourselves to know what is best when faced with all of the information you can lay your hands on. Further to this, the burden of proof should surely be laid upon demonstrating vaccine safety/efficacy and not the other way around, or the implication is that we should vaccinate until it is proven dangerous rather than waiting until we know it is safe.

As for small pox... In England and Wales, free vaccinations for SP were introduced in 1840, they became compulsory in 1853, and in 1867 anyone who refused was liable to face prosecution. Deaths from smallpox in England and Wales during 1857-59 was recorded at 14,244; in 1863-65, 20,059; and 1870-72, 44,840. Further to this, deaths from cancer began to rapidly increase between 1857 and 72.

The phillipines case demonstrated that, prior to vaccination, inhabitants suffered a 10% mortality rate. After it was a much as 65% save for those who refused for religious reasons - they remained around 11%.


----------



## Ozzieshunni

The only links I've ever seen people quote on here against vaccination are from conspiracy theorist websites. If you're going to show us proof, it needs to be accredited medical studies.


----------



## My_First

I would like to see the origin if those stats.


----------



## beth_terri

So what age are they supposed to get it rather than the delayed age? I didnt even know people delayed them xx


----------



## pinklightbulb

I've never gone by links, just instincts.


----------



## pinklightbulb

beth_terri: In Australia it's 12 months, I think. Don't know about the UK.


----------



## patch2006uk

Yes, us sheep following the advice if the world health organisation over websites like 'vaccineconspiracy.net' or 'moderntoxins.org' :dohh: (note-I made those websites up, but I'm sure they exist somewhere!)


----------



## Bella_Bee

My_First said:


> Bella_Bee said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tu123 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bella_Bee said:
> 
> 
> Jaylynne - it's fairly well known that the polio jab itself was quite the scandal.
> 
> "I think to release certain information prematurely is not a public service. There is too much scaring the public unnecessarily. Oh, your children were injected by a cancer virus."
> Albert Sabin, Developer of the Oral Polio Vaccine
> 
> Polio disappeared in some european countries that refused to vaccinate around the same time that the jab supposedly erradiacated the disease in the US and other european countries. Mortality rates had already dropped rapidly. Since the introduction of the vaccine, almost every reported case of polio has been as a result of the vaccine itself. In fact, in the US, the number of reported cases of Polio was higher after vaccines were rolled out than before...
> 
> The story of the measles/MMR vaccine isn't all that different. Vaccinated individuals are 14 times more likely to get measles. It has also set a dangerous precedent... Children under one, as mentioned, are significantly more susceptible to the disease's side effects and yet, thanks to the vaccine, the number of cases in under ones is on the rise due to the mother not passing on immunity (the vaccine does not work in the same way that having had the disease does) via breastfeeding. It was such a common childhood disease that, like chicken pox, most people had had it. The immunity passed on also helped to lessen the effects of the disease. Vaccines interrupted this and actually made the disease more sinister. It's a cycle that needs to be broken.
> 
> In 2000, members of the Association of American Physicians and Surgeons (AAPS) unanimously voted for an end to all government-mandated childhood vaccines. Jane M. Orient, M.D., AAPS executive director, said: "Children face the possibility of death or serious long-term adverse effects from mandated vaccines."
> 
> Do you not think if everything you have just written was so true and significant enough that we wouldn't bother with vaccines? The NHS bneeds to make cuts anywhere, the science and research just isn't credible enough to stop vaccinating, of course that could change.Click to expand...
> 
> Sadly not. The NHS takes significant payments and "gifts" from pharmaceuticals looking to push and advertise their products. As much as £10,000 per GP.
> 
> GPs are awarded extra bonus payments for achieving 70 and 90% vaccination rates in 2 and 5 year olds.
> 
> Some opt out, some don't.Click to expand...
> 
> Right, so why does it matter if they take 'gifts'? All the vaccines have been licenced, passed all the regulatory bodies, its just a matter of which which drug company gets there first.
> 
> Its not like something is discovered and sold within two days. This takes DECADES of clinicial trials, heck they have to get their money back somehow.
> 
> Also, who else do you expect to fund studies into drugs? The Government surely hasnt got that sort of cash, so companies do it and companies exist to make money. They still have to pass testing before it goes to market.
> 
> And so what if they get bonuses to reach targets, pretty much every organisation does, because they want to get, as much as we can, eradication of these diseases.
> 
> We live in a capatalist society, people are in the business to make money. If people dont like that then they are welcome to join a self sufficient community or a communist country.
> 
> People mention money/Drs and Pharmas like its a big hush secret. Its everyones business to make money, its the way our modern society is.Click to expand...

All of these are unethical conflicts of interest which raises many important questions, particularly when you consider that many opt out. A doctor may not hold a position at a hospital with bed patients if s/he is anti vaccine. So, much like when you could not be hold a government post without belonging to the church of england and every government official was a devout member of the church and once it was no longer a conditon officials were, suddenly, less uniform in their beliefs, you would no doubt find that some doctors would soon become more outspoken if left to their own beliefs, without influence.

Like I said, I can vaguely appreciate that some are less likely to question the status quo but that never did get us very far.

History is littered with corruption and crimes against humanity. It is also filled with stories of good men unknowingly carrying out "the devil's work" under the guise of the greater good. What makes you think people and various other things have changed all of a sudden?


----------



## patch2006uk

Also, it makes sense that measles deaths will be in the vaccinated, as there are more people vaccinated than not. The vaccine isn't a magic potion meaning already weak people don't get sick and die, it's just a vaccine that triggers your body into making antibodies, so if you do come into contact with the disease, your body knows how to fight it. 

As for polio-yes, the original vaccines were a massive disaster and caused much more suffering than they prevented. However, modern polio are effective and don't carry the live virus. You only have to look at the Paralympians who had lost limbs to polio and the fact that they were from counties who don't vaccinate routinely against polio, to see that the vaccine does prevent polio and the devastating effects it can have. 

I think we've forgotten how horrible some of these diseases were. And that's because they're less common because vaccination works. Yes, they carry some side effects, but as has been said, so does calpol and everything else. 

As for big pharma-I'd be the first in line to say that the way they do business is dodgy. But unless you never take medicine, you have to trust the decision makers to work on your behalf. 

As for dairy being harmful...well yes. I'd rather take my chances with cow's milk than the esteogen mimicry of soya milk, or the arsenic of rice milk. Humans have milked cows for many more years than we've been processing soy.


----------



## Bella_Bee

Ozzieshunni said:


> The only links I've ever seen people quote on here against vaccination are from conspiracy theorist websites. If you're going to show us proof, it needs to be accredited medical studies.

That's a little rude, isn't it? I've been involved in this field for the entirety of my adult life and many of my sources are from books and papers I have here at home... Please don't make assumptions. You can get a great deal of good information on the internet about how the industry works and obvious disparities in what we think we know and what is actually true, however. I'd be surprised. And disappointed if every anti-vax person you have encountered on here has only posted medically unsound information, regardless of the "crackpot" regurgitating it.


----------



## patch2006uk

Bella_bee - I'm much more concerned about unlicensed, unregulated homeopaths claiming they have the cure for cancer and magic potions to prevent illness than I am about someone peddling, even if slightly unethically, a drug that does work. 

Yes, people are funded from shady sources, yes, they have potential vested interests in getting things done a certain way. But that doesn't mean that what they're doing doesn't work, just that its not the perfect way to do it. 

In the same way as being a vegetarian doesn't help animal welfare causes, but only eating organic, free range meat products does, you have to be a consumer of the product for your views to count. Otherwise your voice can be ignored. If you're not affecting the profit margins, you don't matter to these companies.


----------



## NickyKB

OK so someone a few posts back mentioned GP payments for vaccinating - this is true but it doesn't mean this is the only reaspn why it is done. GPs also get payment for making sure diabetics have good control of their sugars, BP and cholesterol - do you know what, cardiovascular deaths in diabetics in my area have plummeted since this was introduced... It doesn't mean they're only doing it because they get paid for it, it means the evidence currently shows this is best clinical practice and the way to get GPs to make sure they're offering this to their patients is to dangle a carrot in front of them. Hospital doctors were a bit outraged when some of these performance payments came in as they saw it as money being given for a service that should be provided as it is best care, but since the've seen the benefits they don't quibble they are now actively engaged with saying "if GPs could do 'x' it would improve the health of the population and so it is worth offering payment in this area."

Because they are paid to do it doesn't mean it is a bad thing...


----------



## Quackquack99

Bella_Bee said:


> Ozzieshunni said:
> 
> 
> The only links I've ever seen people quote on here against vaccination are from conspiracy theorist websites. If you're going to show us proof, it needs to be accredited medical studies.
> 
> That's a little rude, isn't it? I've been involved in this field for the entirety of my adult life and many of my sources are from books and papers I have here at home... Please don't make assumptions. You can get a great deal of good information on the internet about how the industry works and obvious disparities in what we think we know and what is actually true, however. I'd be surprised. And disappointed if every anti-vax person you have encountered on here has only posted medically unsound information, regardless of the "crackpot" regurgitating it.Click to expand...

She isn't meaning to be rude but there is no point in making any statements without having the medical evidence to back it. Tom, Dick or Harry can write anything on the internet and I wouldn't want genuine, concerned parents to believe majority ohe scaremongering that doesn't have any medical backing.


----------



## Ozzieshunni

Quackquack99 said:


> Bella_Bee said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ozzieshunni said:
> 
> 
> The only links I've ever seen people quote on here against vaccination are from conspiracy theorist websites. If you're going to show us proof, it needs to be accredited medical studies.
> 
> That's a little rude, isn't it? I've been involved in this field for the entirety of my adult life and many of my sources are from books and papers I have here at home... Please don't make assumptions. You can get a great deal of good information on the internet about how the industry works and obvious disparities in what we think we know and what is actually true, however. I'd be surprised. And disappointed if every anti-vax person you have encountered on here has only posted medically unsound information, regardless of the "crackpot" regurgitating it.Click to expand...
> 
> She isn't meaning to be rude but there is no point in making any statements without having the medical evidence to back it. Tom, Dick or Harry can write anything on the internet and I wouldn't want genuine, concerned parents to believe majority ohe scaremongering that doesn't have any medical backing.Click to expand...

Thank you. This is what I meant.


----------



## SabrinaKat

Bella_bee - I have a PhD in Classics (ancient history), so do know how to read, interpret information and do research (and in Latin, too!) -- I would love to see ALL the references cited, for my own curiousity....

thanks!

best wishes

ps. deaths from smallpox prior to the introduction of the vaccine is estimated at around 300-500 million and 'has an overall mortality rate of 30&#8211;35%', although this is from Wikipedia! and....'long-term complications of (the) infection include characteristic scars, commonly on the face, which occur in 65&#8211;85% of survivors', (again, wikipedia!)


----------



## TennisGal

There seems to be an undercurrent suggesting that accepting vaccinations is not challenging the status quo?!

My children have limited dairy products...they have a lot of oat milk or cream. The dairy they have is organic. Our meat is free range organic. All our fruit and vegetables are grown by us or bought - organic.

I don't think, for even a second, tat te Gvt are trying to control us through junk food?! Obesity and it's related illnesses are a huge strain on an already strained nhs.

As for vaccinations - I ave spoken at length with any number of professionals (many personal friends) about them, and no one is naive enough to believe the pharmaceutical industries don't have some underhand dealings...but none to the tube of them providing dodgy vaccines for bungs or suchlike.

I only recently found out my uncles hearing issues (totally deaf one side) stemmed from measles. Another uncle has serious lung conditions due to childhood whooping cough. My friends father thinks his heart failure stems from a childhood disease.

A friend of ours who used to be a GP in Kenya finds it utterly bemusing how anyone would opt out of vaccinations (unless for medical reasons)

I respect anyone's decision...but I truly believe that the devastating effects of these illnesses is being belittled. We can afford to be blasé about the effects....because, fortunately due to vaccination, we do not see them first hand so often. We are nt talking colds or stomach bugs, here! My uncle was unwell for MONTHS post measles. 

We do well to question pharmaceutical companies, doctors,the Gvt etc - it's our duty to stay informed and make the best possible decisions for ourselves and our chidren. One octor nicknamed me The Professor...as I come armed with questions, research and potential question marks when it comes to my kids. That's my duty. However, I thank modern science for helping us try and halt killer diseases.


----------



## TennisGal

Ps apols for typos and grammar - one armed typing!

Pps thoroughly enjoy reading George Monbiot - but I'd take his very strong opinions to be a little subjective ;)

Pps little boo...this could be your holiday reading, at this rate?, ;)


----------



## Dk1234

Just because politicians take donations for drug companies doesn't mean they do it to keep vaccines on the market to keep us all sick in some conspiracy. That is literally crazy. No where is vaccines debated politically and up for a vote to where contributions could sway a politicians vote. It makes no sense.


----------



## staralfur

I, too, am anxiously awaiting Bella_Bee's sources. 

Can't say I understand how you manage to throw out a hundred stats and not have the sources readily available?


----------



## Dk1234

I just don't understand the conspiracy theory. If you are that unsettled by government and think everyone is out to get you I think the least of your worries are vaccinations. I am all for being informed but I couldn't live my life watching my back and looking for reasons to not trust anything.


----------



## Dk1234

Also, one of the ways I made my final decision was I asked my pediatrician how his children were vaccinated. If he was truly just following some government agenda to he is all sick, he wouldn't vaccinate his own children. Same with my mother, a dr. She vaccinated us and wouldn't hear of me not doing so as well.


----------



## tu123

Bella_Bee said:


> tu123 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bella_Bee said:
> 
> 
> Jaylynne - it's fairly well known that the polio jab itself was quite the scandal.
> 
> "I think to release certain information prematurely is not a public service. There is too much scaring the public unnecessarily. Oh, your children were injected by a cancer virus."
> Albert Sabin, Developer of the Oral Polio Vaccine
> 
> Polio disappeared in some european countries that refused to vaccinaite around the same time that the jab supposedly erradiacated the disease in the US and other european countries. Mortality rates had already dropped rapidly. Since the introduction of the vaccine, almost every reported case of polio has been as a result of the vaccine itself. In fact, in the US, the number of reported cases of Polio was higher after vaccines were rolled out than before...
> 
> The story of the measles/MMR vaccine isn't all that different. Vaccinated individuals are 14 times more likely to get measles. It has also set a dangerous precedent... Children under one, as mentioned, are significantly more susceptible to the disease's side effects and yet, thanks to the vaccine, the number of cases in under ones is on the rise due to the mother not passing on immunity (the vaccine does not work in the same way that having had the disease does) via breastfeeding. It was such a common childhood disease that, like chicken pox, most people had had it. The immunity passed on also helped to lessen the effects of the disease. Vaccines interrupted this and actually made the disease more sinister. It's a cycle that needs to be broken.
> 
> In 2000, members of the Association of American Physicians and Surgeons (AAPS) unanimously voted for an end to all government-mandated childhood vaccines. Jane M. Orient, M.D., AAPS executive director, said: "Children face the possibility of death or serious long-term adverse effects from mandated vaccines."
> 
> Do you not think if everything you have just written was so true and significant enough that we wouldn't bother with vaccines? The NHS bneeds to make cuts anywhere, the science and research just isn't credible enough to stop vaccinating, of course that could change.Click to expand...
> 
> Sadly not. The NHS takes significant payments and "gifts" from pharmaceuticals looking to push and advertise their products. As much as £10,000 per GP.
> 
> GPs are awarded extra bonus payments for achieving 70 and 90% vaccination rates in 2 and 5 year olds.
> 
> Some opt out, some don't.Click to expand...

You are missing the point of it entirely.. They get the bonus because they achieve a target deemed as necessary for the health of the population. I'm ok with that.


----------



## SabrinaKat

Sources! Let us see the sources! I love a good footnote, me!

best wishes


----------



## Button#

I totally agree healthy children could probably shake off measles, mumps or rubella and come through it with better immunity. That's great for them. If my mother who has lupus and as a result almost no immune system came into contact with one of those children and she caught it, it would kill her. 

I will be having my son vaccinated.


----------



## Jaylynne

I just it's funny that they claim huge finds by pharma to government but the AAPS is funded by ambulance chasers, political and grant organizations aimed at trying to find a link between autism and mmr. 

I'd much rather not use a source funded by hopeful ambulance chasers (aka trail lawyers) looking for the next big tort.


----------



## SabrinaKat

Button# said:


> I totally agree healthy children could probably shake off measles, mumps or rubella and come through it with better immunity. That's great for them. If my mother who has lupus and as a result almost no immune system came into contact with one of those children and she caught it, it would kill her.
> 
> I will be having my son vaccinated.

I never thought of that and my SIL has lupus....(we are vaccinating...)

best wishes


----------



## Ozzieshunni

Advanced stages of lupus can have that side effect. I carry lupus antibodies and I have a strong immune system. Then again, I don't have lupus directly.


----------



## Jaylynne

Ozzieshunni, I'm glad we can agree on something :flower:


----------



## Ozzieshunni

:haha: Yeah, when it comes to the medical needs of my son, I'm pretty on the ball with things. I was going to delay the MMR until 15 months too, but there was a mumps outbreak in my area so there was no way in hell I was going to risk it.


----------



## StaceyKor

Ozzieshunni said:


> :haha: Yeah, when it comes to the medical needs of my son, I'm pretty on the ball with things. I was going to delay the MMR until 15 months too, but there was a mumps outbreak in my area so there was no way in hell I was going to risk it.

Yep, theres been a LOT of mumps going around Scotland in the last year...oh and guess what...it also follows a recent trend in lower vaccine uptake rates, go figure hehe. My LO will be vaccinated for sure x


----------



## SabrinaKat

There have been measles outbreaks in Dublin and Cork recently as well. I DO understand everybody's worries, it's just I could never forgive myself if something preventable happened to my LO....

Incidentially, I never had chicken-pox and when ttc, was informed, I was not immune. When I became pregnant with my LO, I was advised to stay away from small children, creches, etc., and to make sure that my job (work in adult education) knew...I could have taken the vaccination (but we were ttc and would have to 'waited' for three months for two doses inbetween each), and now, will be taking it in a couple of months.

Also, and am curious, for those anti-vaccinations, what about anti-d injections? I'm O negative, my OH is A positive and LO....A positive. I had to have the injections as bleeding throughout pregnancy might not have harmed LO, but a possible subsequent pregnancy could be affected (sadly, my OH's aunt/uncle did lose a LO to rhesus problems).....any thoughts on that? 

best wishes

ps. I am aware of the Irish government scandal wherein contaminated blood products were used in the manufacture of anti-d injections in the 1970s/1980s (in a previous life, I was a junior solicitor in the law firm that originally prosecuted the government) -- the anti-d injections now are made from the mother's own blood sample....


----------



## whit.

There was a measles outbreak a few hours from us not that long ago. I don't think I could live with myself knowing I could have possibly prevented my child from getting it if she would have gotten it and something awful happened. 

We vaccinate. The only reaction Sophia had was a sore leg and a hard spot/lump under the skin for a few days (just like when I get a shot).


----------



## My_First

We got nothing, nadda in terms of reaction. He didn't even cry as I distracted him with a biscuit. I found the earlier ones worse not in sickness but the cry broke my heart.


----------



## Bella_Bee

I have a good head for numbers and facts.

I'm pretty unwell today. Bad cold. I'm going to have to come back to this, hopefully tomorrow evening. This evening I have a temp and raging headache and a cluster feeding baby.

I will definitely be back!


----------



## JleStar

Bella_Bee said:


> I have a good head for numbers and facts.
> 
> I'm pretty unwell today. Bad cold. I'm going to have to come back to this, hopefully tomorrow evening. This evening I have a temp and raging headache and a cluster feeding baby.
> 
> I will definitely be back!

Good luck sweety.


----------



## tina3747

Bella_Bee said:


> I have a good head for numbers and facts.
> 
> I'm pretty unwell today. Bad cold. I'm going to have to come back to this, hopefully tomorrow evening. This evening I have a temp and raging headache and a cluster feeding baby.
> 
> I will definitely be back!

Hope it's not the start of measles, mumps or rubella ... That would be ironic:haha::haha:


----------



## Lydiarose

tina3747 said:


> Bella_Bee said:
> 
> 
> I have a good head for numbers and facts.
> 
> I'm pretty unwell today. Bad cold. I'm going to have to come back to this, hopefully tomorrow evening. This evening I have a temp and raging headache and a cluster feeding baby.
> 
> I will definitely be back!
> 
> Hope it's not the start of measles, mumps or rubella ... That would be ironic:haha::haha:Click to expand...

how is that funny?


Bella i understand your point completely,unfortunetly this way of thinking is seen as "conspiricy paranoid noncence" by many people love to laugh about it and take this piss,just like the david icke terry wogan thing :winkwink:

I tend to just keep my thoughts to myself now,especially on here im lucky in the fact alot of our family think along the same lines!

but theres literally no point in going against the grain on here you'll just get 10 pages of put downs.


OP sorry your threads turned into a playground fight :haha::hugs:


----------



## TennisGal

I don't think the thread has turned into a playground fight? I think, largely, it's been a respectful debate.

And don't keep your thoughts to yourself - it's always good to hear ALL opinions :hugs:


----------



## stardust599

We delayed until 17months. DD was horrendous for a month afterwards, her sleep, feeding and behaviour all changed drastically. Thankfully she's back to normal. DS will be the same at 16 - 24 months whenever I feel he is ready.


----------



## StaceyKor

TennisGal said:


> I don't think the thread has turned into a playground fight? I think, largely, it's been a respectful debate.
> 
> And don't keep your thoughts to yourself - it's always good to hear ALL opinions :hugs:

Completely agree, i think its been a very calm debate. No-one seems abusive in the slightest. Its normal that with things like this there will be differences of opinion x


----------



## Jaylynne

Personally, i think if someone has been in the field for this for a large amount of time they can rattle off their sources. Maybe not a specific web address, but certainly name the source. Seems rather sketchy. I can cite sources after only a few hours research. 

And no, I wouldn't consider the AAPS a credible source. They've been denied access to any respectable medical journal. 

I would love to see research from a credible organization.


----------



## pinklightbulb

SabrinaKat said:


> There have been measles outbreaks in Dublin and Cork recently as well. I DO understand everybody's worries, it's just I could never forgive myself if something preventable happened to my LO....
> 
> Incidentially, I never had chicken-pox and when ttc, was informed, I was not immune. When I became pregnant with my LO, I was advised to stay away from small children, creches, etc., and to make sure that my job (work in adult education) knew...I could have taken the vaccination (but we were ttc and would have to 'waited' for three months for two doses inbetween each), and now, will be taking it in a couple of months.
> 
> Also, and am curious, for those anti-vaccinations, what about anti-d injections? I'm O negative, my OH is A positive and LO....A positive. I had to have the injections as bleeding throughout pregnancy might not have harmed LO, but a possible subsequent pregnancy could be affected (sadly, my OH's aunt/uncle did lose a LO to rhesus problems).....any thoughts on that?
> 
> best wishes
> 
> ps. I am aware of the Irish government scandal wherein contaminated blood products were used in the manufacture of anti-d injections in the 1970s/1980s (in a previous life, I was a junior solicitor in the law firm that originally prosecuted the government) -- the anti-d injections now are made from the mother's own blood sample....

I am O- and refused anti-D during my pregnancy with Liam. Ironically, I had it with Eamon, who turned out O- like me. Liam turned out to be O+ and so I had anti-D after he was born.


----------



## staralfur

That's a great point, Jaylynne. I don't think anyone is asking for formal citations, rather just where in general the info is coming from that's a little more specific than "books". 

I've also seen a few people say "if you look deep enough you'll find the truth" (which is kind of cryptic, really :haha:) but no one is actually providing information on where they got theirs. 

Very odd.


----------



## JleStar

Jaylynne said:


> Personally, i think if someone has been in the field for this for a large amount of time they can rattle off their sources. Maybe not a specific web address, but certainly name the source. Seems rather sketchy. I can cite sources after only a few hours research.
> 
> And no, I wouldn't consider the AAPS a credible source. They've been denied access to any respectable medical journal.
> 
> I would love to see research from a credible organization.

Please cite your sources that proves the efficacy and safety of vaccinations.


----------



## babyno9

I delayed all my kids MMR until they were 18 months and then i requested they give the MMR separately to the other 12 months jabs, that i also delayed. The nurse wanted to give him the MMR and the other two jabs at the same time, i refused and made her give him the MMR and then went back 4 weeks later for the other two. My 21 month old had a bad time after the MMR, it lasted 3 weeks. :(


----------



## JleStar

staralfur said:


> That's a great point, Jaylynne. I don't think anyone is asking for formal citations, rather just where in general the info is coming from that's a little more specific than "books".
> 
> I've also seen a few people say "if you look deep enough you'll find the truth" (which is kind of cryptic, really :haha:) but no one is actually providing information on where they got theirs.
> 
> Very odd.

Hey strangler, 
I guess if you really wanted to know the truth then you would look for yourself. It's not cryptic..its just being responsible for your own informative decisions. I did some homework so do yours lol. Really not meaning to sound like a b but I don't want to tell people what to think...I just say how I feel based on what I have learned. However, I see that many are asking for sources as to why one would come to a decision to not vaccinate or delay it so I will try to compile a list of every piece of information I have read or listened to. Again, many people still will be resistant and dismissive---and that's ok I guess.


----------



## JleStar

JleStar said:


> staralfur said:
> 
> 
> That's a great point, Jaylynne. I don't think anyone is asking for formal citations, rather just where in general the info is coming from that's a little more specific than "books".
> 
> I've also seen a few people say "if you look deep enough you'll find the truth" (which is kind of cryptic, really :haha:) but no one is actually providing information on where they got theirs.
> 
> Very odd.
> 
> Hey strangler,
> I guess if you really wanted to know the truth then you would look for yourself. It's not cryptic..its just being responsible for your own informative decisions. I did some homework so do yours lol. Really not meaning to sound like a b but I don't want to tell people what to think...I just say how I feel based on what I have learned. However, I see that many are asking for sources as to why one would come to a decision to not vaccinate or delay it so I will try to compile a list of every piece of information I have read or listened to. Again, many people still will be resistant and dismissive---and that's ok I guess.Click to expand...

Oops..dam autocorrect. Not strangler lol


----------



## CMarie

Quite the thread on here! :haha:

DH and I did a lot of research before our LO was due for his first shots and decided to not vaccinate him at all. There are many reasons why, but the one that first comes to mind is the fact that knowing what we do now about the ingredients, we would never get ourselves injected so we won't do it to our son. Also, my brother and I (13 months apart) both had the MMR vaccine and actually got measles right afterwards. My mom swears that we were both different babies afterwards too. 

The only advice I have is to trust your gut. If your gut is telling you to get your LO vaccinated before the holidays, then do it, but if it's telling you to wait, then do that. Best of luck! :flower:


----------



## Jaylynne

JleStar said:


> Jaylynne said:
> 
> 
> Personally, i think if someone has been in the field for this for a large amount of time they can rattle off their sources. Maybe not a specific web address, but certainly name the source. Seems rather sketchy. I can cite sources after only a few hours research.
> 
> And no, I wouldn't consider the AAPS a credible source. They've been denied access to any respectable medical journal.
> 
> I would love to see research from a credible organization.
> 
> Please cite your sources that proves the efficacy and safety of vaccinations.Click to expand...

Sure. I'll show you mine as I've had yet to see yours. 

CDC 
https://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/Concerns/adverse_effects_iomreport.html

WHO
https://www.who.int/immunization_safety/safety_quality/vaccine_safety_websites/en/index.html

Time Magazine. Well researched article with personal antecedents if that's your thing
https://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1808620,00.html

Children's Hospital of Philadelphia (chop). Best children's hospital in the area by far
https://www.chop.edu/service/vaccine-education-center/vaccine-safety/

Webmd for those who like that sort of site 
https://children.webmd.com/vaccines/features/childhood-vaccine-safety

Institute of Medicine
https://www.iom.edu/Reports/2011/Adverse-Effects-of-Vaccines-Evidence-and-Causality.aspx

American Academy of Pediatrics
https://www.iom.edu/Reports/2011/Adverse-Effects-of-Vaccines-Evidence-and-Causality.aspx

New York health department 
https://www.iom.edu/Reports/2011/Adverse-Effects-of-Vaccines-Evidence-and-Causality.aspx

What to expect (the parental bible when pregnant and first years)
https://www.whattoexpect.com/child-vaccinations/importance-of-vaccines.aspx

Center for strategic and international studies
https://csis.org/files/publication/111207_Nieburg_RolesofVaccine_WEB.pdf





There's 10. Let me know when you read them all and dissect and have credible sources to refute the evidence and I'll be glad to give you more.


----------



## JleStar

Jaylynne said:


> JleStar said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jaylynne said:
> 
> 
> Personally, i think if someone has been in the field for this for a large amount of time they can rattle off their sources. Maybe not a specific web address, but certainly name the source. Seems rather sketchy. I can cite sources after only a few hours research.
> 
> And no, I wouldn't consider the AAPS a credible source. They've been denied access to any respectable medical journal.
> 
> I would love to see research from a credible organization.
> 
> Please cite your sources that proves the efficacy and safety of vaccinations.Click to expand...
> 
> Sure. I'll show you mine as I've had yet to see yours.
> 
> 
> CDC
> https://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/Concerns/adverse_effects_iomreport.html
> 
> WHO
> https://www.who.int/immunization_safety/safety_quality/vaccine_safety_websites/en/index.html
> 
> Time Magazine. Well researched article with personal antecedents if that's your thing
> https://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1808620,00.html
> 
> Children's Hospital of Philadelphia (chop). Best children's hospital in the area by far
> https://www.chop.edu/service/vaccine-education-center/vaccine-safety/
> 
> Webmd for those who like that sort of site
> https://children.webmd.com/vaccines/features/childhood-vaccine-safety
> 
> Institute of Medicine
> https://www.iom.edu/Reports/2011/Adverse-Effects-of-Vaccines-Evidence-and-Causality.aspx
> 
> American Academy of Pediatrics
> https://www.iom.edu/Reports/2011/Adverse-Effects-of-Vaccines-Evidence-and-Causality.aspx
> 
> New York health department
> https://www.iom.edu/Reports/2011/Adverse-Effects-of-Vaccines-Evidence-and-Causality.aspx
> 
> What to expect (the parental bible when pregnant and first years)
> https://www.whattoexpect.com/child-vaccinations/importance-of-vaccines.aspx
> 
> Center for strategic and international studies
> https://csis.org/files/publication/111207_Nieburg_RolesofVaccine_WEB.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There's 10. Let me know when you read them all and dissect and have credible sources to refute the evidence and I'll be glad to give you more.Click to expand...

Sounds perfect. I will look at these with an open mind and get back to you soon. To be continued.


----------



## SabrinaKat

Just to take the first citation from the CDC (a direct quote):

There are no recommendations in this report, and the report does not address the benefits of vaccination. The findings indicate that these vaccines are generally very safe and that serious adverse events are quite rare. The IOM has conducted two similar extensive reviews in the past. The last one was published in 1994.

I don't have time to look at all 10 references at the moment, but thanks! 

Whilst I appreciate that non-vaccinators have their own opinion and I am NOT trying to dissuade you whatsoever, this is the academic stuff against what a few posters have commented on (and we have asked for references)

best wishes


----------



## Jaylynne

You have to click the links on the side for the CDC as they go according to the vaccine type if I recall. I wasn't about to post 10 links from one site. Most have studies listed at the bottom to back up the bullet points.


----------



## Bella_Bee

Jaylynne said:


> Personally, i think if someone has been in the field for this for a large amount of time they can rattle off their sources. Maybe not a specific web address, but certainly name the source. Seems rather sketchy. I can cite sources after only a few hours research.
> 
> And no, I wouldn't consider the AAPS a credible source. They've been denied access to any respectable medical journal.
> 
> I would love to see research from a credible organization.

I'm not sure how it's sketchy? I've been very specific with my facts and figures, for one. When somebody asked about sources I'd already made quite a lot of points. I have already mentioned needing to include graphs - I didn't see the point in stating a few references on their own when I could help to demonstrate with graphs.

Like I keep saying, I'll be back. Meanwhile I don't really appreciate the constant suggestions that I'm basically full of shit. Have a bit more respect, eh?


----------



## Ozzieshunni

Bella, I know you're new to this site, but when it comes to things that involve the health of our children, we don't just go off of facts that are not backed up. I'm sorry, it's just common sense.


----------



## Jaylynne

Like we keep saying, show your sources. It IS sketchy to most of us that you keep popping back in promising graphs but no proof. Everyone knows it's easily to manipulate data any which way using a graph. A graph doesn't equal solid data, testing, and results. 

And as for the AAPS, they're the same organization that states a gay man will live 20 years less than a straight man.


----------



## StaceyKor

Jaylynne said:


> Like we keep saying, show your sources. It IS sketchy to most of us that you keep popping back in promising graphs but no proof. Everyone knows it's easily to manipulate data any which way using a graph. A graph doesn't equal solid data, testing, and results.
> 
> And as for the AAPS, they're the same organization that states a gay man will live 20 years less than a straight man.

Seriously??? Lol... How do they figure this? Oh let me guess...due to STDs? Crazy!!! The majority of gay men will use safe sex practices...how can an organisation get away with comments like that? As u say, they sound like a very 'credible source' hmmmm...xx


----------



## SabrinaKat

Bella_bee -- I've been a member of BnB for over a year, and would hope that other members would agree that I am always very respectful on the forum (e.g. if I can't say anything nice, etc) and never once have said that you are 'full of shit'; (I appreciate your comment was not directed personally at me!- LOL!)

I'm an academic -- I love footnotes, citations of material used, etc -- that's why I've asked three (3) times for YOUR 'bibliography'/materials, etc. 

I happen to disagree with your stance (although I appreciate everybody has their own opinion) -- and I'd like to see the materials you are referring to, as all credible source material is usually peer-reviewed; that's ALL I am asking for! 

best wishes


----------



## babydust1990

:dohh: at this thread. I'll be getting my baby vaccinated because the NHS wouldn't spend so much money on something that was not tried and tested. And I once worked on an infectious diseases ward and measles can be horrendous. If everyone stopped vaccinations, there would be a hell of a lot more child deaths due to these illnesses. I actually used to care for someone who had polio as a child who had flaccid paralysis, she was constantly in pain and was nearly blind. I'd NEVER let my child catch anything like that if I can help it. Those are my reasons. Do what you will with your own children and I'll do what I want with mine?


----------



## Jaylynne

They actually oppose evidence based medicine!! Crazy. Simply because they think the autonomy of individual physicians trump proven methods of care. 

Physicians must beware of accepting the concept of a standard of care that is itself evidence-based, threatening the autonomy of physicians and subjugating the patient&#8217;s interest to that of the collective. (AAPS Newsletter)
[Evidence-based guidelines] are a divisive force, creating uncertainty and mistrust, and undermining confidence in physicians and our medical system. EBGs can be used either to accuse physicians of withholding therapy, or of prescribing unnecessary or unproven treatments. Behind the façade of EBGs, [managed care organizations] can determine medical policy with impunity. (Norman Latov MD)
Practice guidelines and treatment protocols are regarded as impediments to the unfettered practice of medicine.


Guidelines and safety protocol are seen as an impediment 


There is a lot of pressure to restrict physicians&#8217; treatments to practice guidelines and to methods that have been shown to be both safe and effective in double-blind controlled trials. If we were to insist on this across the board, a huge number of medical treatments that physicians rely on would be ruled out&#8230; If everything can be done with treatment protocols, then perhaps we should do without physicians altogether. Of course, we recognize that there are varying abilities, but I think it is a mistake to say that one small group, politically appointed, can sit in infallible judgment on just who the real physicians might be&#8230;. (Jane Orient, MD, Executive Director, AAPS)


Seriously. Read this site. Made me sick. They reference and quote directly from the aaps and their medical "journal" https://www.neurodiversity.com/weblog/article/91/


----------



## Jaylynne

AIDS denialist Peter Duesberg presents his theories as a guest of AAPS. Fellow AIDS denialist Nathaniel Lehrman &#8212; advisor to the National Association for Research and Therapy of Homosexuality (NARTH) &#8212; judges homosexuality as inherently conducive to crime and disease:

&#8230;the &#8220;gay&#8221; male lifestyle significantly increases the incidence of infectious disease and shortens life expectancy by about 20 years&#8230; The concept of homosexuality as a permanent &#8220;orientation&#8221; is, however, without scientific validation; the notion is entirely politically grounded. One effect of this new view has been to understate the medical and societal harm produced by the promiscuous sexual practices typically associated with homosexuality&#8230; [E]ven though homosexuals seeking to change often succeed in doing so (frequently with the aid of therapy), the AMA statement, by publicly opposing &#8220;reparative&#8221; or &#8220;conversion&#8221; therapy &#8220;based on the a priori assumption that the patient should change his/her homosexual orientation,&#8221; seems to take an implicit moral position of denying that such change should occur. (Nathaniel Lehrman, MD)



It's off topic, but shows what ideas the organization entertains.


----------



## StaceyKor

Jaylynne said:


> AIDS denialist Peter Duesberg presents his theories as a guest of AAPS. Fellow AIDS denialist Nathaniel Lehrman  advisor to the National Association for Research and Therapy of Homosexuality (NARTH)  judges homosexuality as inherently conducive to crime and disease:
> 
> the gay male lifestyle significantly increases the incidence of infectious disease and shortens life expectancy by about 20 years The concept of homosexuality as a permanent orientation is, however, without scientific validation; the notion is entirely politically grounded. One effect of this new view has been to understate the medical and societal harm produced by the promiscuous sexual practices typically associated with homosexuality [E]ven though homosexuals seeking to change often succeed in doing so (frequently with the aid of therapy), the AMA statement, by publicly opposing reparative or conversion therapy based on the a priori assumption that the patient should change his/her homosexual orientation, seems to take an implicit moral position of denying that such change should occur. (Nathaniel Lehrman, MD)
> 
> 
> 
> It's off topic, but shows what ideas the organization entertains.

Omg!!! All i have to say to that is WOW!! Ridiculous!!x


----------



## staralfur

JleStar said:


> staralfur said:
> 
> 
> That's a great point, Jaylynne. I don't think anyone is asking for formal citations, rather just where in general the info is coming from that's a little more specific than "books".
> 
> I've also seen a few people say "if you look deep enough you'll find the truth" (which is kind of cryptic, really :haha:) but no one is actually providing information on where they got theirs.
> 
> Very odd.
> 
> Hey strangler,
> I guess if you really wanted to know the truth then you would look for yourself. It's not cryptic..its just being responsible for your own informative decisions. I did some homework so do yours lol. Really not meaning to sound like a b but I don't want to tell people what to think...I just say how I feel based on what I have learned. However, I see that many are asking for sources as to why one would come to a decision to not vaccinate or delay it so I will try to compile a list of every piece of information I have read or listened to. Again, many people still will be resistant and dismissive---and that's ok I guess.Click to expand...

Just because I don't know where you get your information from doesn't mean I haven't informed myself on the subject. :shrug: 

And for the record I totally understand that people aren't comfortable with vaccinating their children, and that's your choice, and I have no problem with it. 

I DO have a problem with people claiming that those of us choosing to vaccinate our kids just aren't looking hard enough.


----------



## Jaylynne

Fine, I'll throw the gauntlet down. Here's my challenge:

Give us three credible sources that can prove that it is more harmful for the general population to receive a vaccine that to refuse it. I want statistics, case studies and sources. Please note that it is the general population as no one here is arguing those with medical conditions receive vaccines which doctors have stated may cause an adverse reaction. And I'm not talking about delaying, flat out saying no to vaccines.

I (or others) will research your sources and refute using credible sources, case studies, experiments and statistics to prove otherwise as needed. Sabrinakat is probably far more experienced in research than I am so others feel free to research for yourselves as well!

I bet you can't provide them.


----------



## JleStar

staralfur said:


> JleStar said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> staralfur said:
> 
> 
> That's a great point, Jaylynne. I don't think anyone is asking for formal citations, rather just where in general the info is coming from that's a little more specific than "books".
> 
> I've also seen a few people say "if you look deep enough you'll find the truth" (which is kind of cryptic, really :haha:) but no one is actually providing information on where they got theirs.
> 
> Very odd.
> 
> Hey strangler,
> I guess if you really wanted to know the truth then you would look for yourself. It's not cryptic..its just being responsible for your own informative decisions. I did some homework so do yours lol. Really not meaning to sound like a b but I don't want to tell people what to think...I just say how I feel based on what I have learned. However, I see that many are asking for sources as to why one would come to a decision to not vaccinate or delay it so I will try to compile a list of every piece of information I have read or listened to. Again, many people still will be resistant and dismissive---and that's ok I guess.Click to expand...
> 
> Just because I don't know where you get your information from doesn't mean I haven't informed myself on the subject. :shrug:
> 
> And for the record I totally understand that people aren't comfortable with vaccinating their children, and that's your choice, and I have no problem with it.
> 
> I DO have a problem with people claiming that those of us choosing to vaccinate our kids just aren't looking hard enough.Click to expand...

First of all let me apologize if I offended you. This was not my intent. I guess I assume that most that read what I have read and seen would come to the same conclusion and that is----Not sure about vaccinations. I am not for or against vaccinating at the moment. I figured there would be more like me who have just postponed vaccinating because of the data. Instead, I find a lot who have chosen to vaccinate which is fine, like I keep saying, It's your choice! I am big on an informed parent doing what they feel is best for their child. Now that right should go both ways, shouldn't it? Nope, not here or out there in the real world for that matter. These vaccines are being mandated, MANDATED for God's sake. I no longer have a choice...it is being forced upon me. If not now, then when my child tries to enter school. And that in my book is just WRONG. I have a problem with that especially considering that vaccines have NEVER been proven to be SAFE or EFFECTIVE.
For the record, speaking of being offended and pigeon holed into a category I have been called a conspiracy theorist (very dismissive) and irresponsible...now I should be the one who is offended.


----------



## Jaylynne

How about we all do the research and come to an informed decision?


----------



## veganmama

here are a few sources, still not sure what you mean by credible as most "credible" sources aka pharma industry, who, fda are all the big companies promoting vaccines imo for reasons not to benefit you.

anyways is it doctors you want? i have here Dr. Mercola on whooping cough

https://healthimpactnews.com/2012/b...preads-mainly-through-vaccinated-populations/

why you should avoid taking vaccines by another doctor, Dr. James Howenstine

https://www.newswithviews.com/Howenstine/james.htm

interview with Dr. Sherri Tenpenny about dangers of vaccines

https://tv.naturalnews.com/v.asp?v=4CD1FE39DDB89814031B07E7623CE8F7

i honestly dont care if you vaccinate or not but youre asking where do non vaxers get their info and research from and those are just a few


----------



## Pielette

Wow. That was a hell of a thread to get through!

I think anyone giving medical and academic evidenc either for or against vaccinating needs to be backing it up with sources. This is a good thread and we are all seeking to become more informed, so I think it's very important that anyone quoting studies and stats gives a source. We are all mothers who want to do the best for our children.

As for me, I will be vaccinating and have been doing so. My MIL did not believe in vaccinating. As a result, my DH got the following as a child; measles, mumps and whooping cough. How the hell he got out of it with no lasting effects I don't know, but he has said it was horrendous, particularly whooping cough which for him lasted for quite a while. 

Can you not imagine how awful that is for a child to experience all of that? As an adult it's bad enough getting ill but a little child who doesn't understand feeling so so ill, it breaks my heart to think of him so sick. It's preventable, so my LO will be vaccinated.


----------



## JleStar

Jaylynne said:


> JleStar said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jaylynne said:
> 
> 
> Personally, i think if someone has been in the field for this for a large amount of time they can rattle off their sources. Maybe not a specific web address, but certainly name the source. Seems rather sketchy. I can cite sources after only a few hours research.
> 
> And no, I wouldn't consider the AAPS a credible source. They've been denied access to any respectable medical journal.
> 
> I would love to see research from a credible organization.
> 
> Please cite your sources that proves the efficacy and safety of vaccinations.Click to expand...
> 
> Sure. I'll show you mine as I've had yet to see yours.
> 
> CDC
> https://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/Concerns/adverse_effects_iomreport.html
> 
> WHO
> https://www.who.int/immunization_safety/safety_quality/vaccine_safety_websites/en/index.html
> 
> Time Magazine. Well researched article with personal antecedents if that's your thing
> https://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1808620,00.html
> 
> Children's Hospital of Philadelphia (chop). Best children's hospital in the area by far
> https://www.chop.edu/service/vaccine-education-center/vaccine-safety/
> 
> Webmd for those who like that sort of site
> https://children.webmd.com/vaccines/features/childhood-vaccine-safety
> 
> Institute of Medicine
> https://www.iom.edu/Reports/2011/Adverse-Effects-of-Vaccines-Evidence-and-Causality.aspx
> 
> American Academy of Pediatrics
> https://www.iom.edu/Reports/2011/Adverse-Effects-of-Vaccines-Evidence-and-Causality.aspx
> 
> New York health department
> https://www.iom.edu/Reports/2011/Adverse-Effects-of-Vaccines-Evidence-and-Causality.aspx
> 
> What to expect (the parental bible when pregnant and first years)
> https://www.whattoexpect.com/child-vaccinations/importance-of-vaccines.aspx
> 
> Center for strategic and international studies
> https://csis.org/files/publication/111207_Nieburg_RolesofVaccine_WEB.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There's 10. Let me know when you read them all and dissect and have credible sources to refute the evidence and I'll be glad to give you more.Click to expand...


Hello Jaylynne, Ozzishun and others
I said I would be back with my sources so here I am. First of all, I read all your "citations" and lets be honest 9 out of 10 of your "evidence" is from the same exact research paper. The paper being of IOM, which is by far the most important vaccine study done to date. What I find hilarious is that you are using this to prove that vaccines are safe and effective where I am saying this SAME research proves to me that it has NEVER been confirmed to be safe or effective. I guess it is a matter of interpretation. IF you read the 600 pages of research you will find that the paper does not say that vaccines cause adverse effects (I think about 100 outcomes where studied) BUT it also says that they MAY cause adverse reactions. That is very important in my book. What the research is saying is that it DOES NOT KNOW. This IMPORTANT study did not come to a definitive conclusion of you can say that there conclusion is that the jury is still out on vaccines. They site things like seizures, encephalitis, encephalopathy, AUTISM, fibromyalgia and numerous other "adverse" effects as MAY or may not being linked. 

Now going back to what I like to call "herd mentality," any average, parent with good intentions to do what is best for the child will go to the CDC website and see them cite this research as evidence that Vaccines are safe and effective. You may have not read the study yourself. You are just putting your trust in an organization to be honest about the results or conclusions of the research. The research has been twisted, important parts omitted to give you a false sense of safety.

Please, I gave you the respect of looking into your data. And ironically the most important piece of evidence we both agree on---its the same study! 
Here is an important video and sit that you can start with. I urge you to take the time to look at the video and read through the page. Remember, we all here for the same reasons--Truth.

In this video Barbara Loe Fisher is being interviewd about the contents of the IOM research. She read the report. Take a look:
https://articles.mercola.com/sites/...ore-parents-waking-up-to-vaccine-dangers.aspx


----------



## aliss

Just want to point out... before people go ahead believing articles written by "medical doctors", to actually investigate that "medical doctor" and their current credentials (or past credentials). One does not need to have any degree in medical science to put Dr. in front of their name.

Many doctors which promote anti-vaccination materials are not medical doctors or researchers - so, take from that what you will.


----------



## veganmama

these are confessionals of people claiming complete behavior changes after receiving a vaccine

https://www.followingvaccinations.com/


----------



## veganmama

medical doctor or not they are not geniuses that know everything. when choosing to vaccinate you dont look at WHO said what you just go with what makes sense to you as a mother. science is flawed i mean how many times has the FDA approved something and then had to remove it

even with medicines and drugs

what about the case with Thalidomide a drug used for morning sickness and then YEARS LATER they found out their drug was proven to cause birth defects and gave a public apology themselves. just because its been approved by people and its out there on the shelves and researched doesnt mean its 100% researched and fully safe 

just saying not everything out there is safe and for your benefit, you have to be careful


----------



## aliss

Just because past drugs have been flawed does not mean one should not strongly consider one's background before believing what they publish. Anyone can publish anything online without independent scrutiny. Obviously ALL humans make mistakes but if people wish to take serious issue with certain organizations (FDA, CDC) because they feel that pharmaceutical backing may skew results, then surely they must also consider that many (if not most) anti-vax information online is posted by people without medical credentials and often those who are very emotive to the subject and speak with authority to the masses something for which they may be heavily biased towards (ie. Jenny McCarthy). 

I'm just saying to really analyze your resources. If people wish to disregard or take CDC/FDA with a grain of salt b/c of financial resources then that is their prerogative but let's not try and pretend that some anti-vax doctors (and by doctor, that ranges from microbiology doctors to osteopath doctors) aren't also in the business of selling their alternative cures either. As much as we'd all like to believe that natural doctors are in the business of spreading "the truth", many of them are just as financially-driven.

Just saying for people to do their homework, that's all.


----------



## veganmama

of course aliss, we just all have to do our research and believe what feels right to us


----------



## staralfur

That mercola.com page lost me at "Though this is obviously not a double-blind controlled study, and depends on the individuals submitting the data to give accurate information..."


----------



## JleStar

These are some sites that I like to direct parents to who wonder how I came to the decision I have to postpone vaccination.

This is a great site that claims to be the watchdog of Vaccines
Its has tons of information for parents to become more informed in their decisions
www.nvic.org

This is another wonderful site, that has many *research studie*s and *articles* pertaining to vaccines. It also includes vaccine laws and anecdotes from families affected from vaccine damage. 
https://thinktwice.com/

Another site with lots of research: 
https://www.novaccine.com/vaccine-risks/

same:
https://www.vaccinationnews.com/

Did you know that there has been a federal admission of vaccine risks:
https://thinktwice.com/secret.htm

Just one of many research studies:
3. "Risk of Febrile Seizures and Epilepsy After Vaccination With Diphtheria, Tetanus, Acellular Pertussis, Inactivated Poliovirus, and Haemophilus Influenzae Type b "
"Conclusions DTaP-IPV-Hib vaccination was associated with an increased risk of febrile seizures on the day of the first 2 vaccinations given at 3 and 5 months, although the absolute risk was small. "
Yuelian Sun, PhD, et al, JAMA. 2012;307(8):823-831. -- 1/1/2012

I can go on but I won't. There is a lot above to look into. Search through the sites and browse. 

Going back to the IOM report which Jaylynne cited as evidence as to the efficacy and safety of vaccinations. If you read the report you would know that it does NOT prove that, instead, it reveals that they still do not know if vaccines cause adverse reactions.

Here is analogy (may not be the best but here goes... )

Would you allow your child to ride on a roller coaster whose safety harnesses have not been proven to be safe or effective? Would you take the risk of bodily injury? What if the injuries are not apparent directly after riding the coaster. Maybe a week later your child has brain inflammation or is suffering from head trauma. Would you not point your finger back at that coaster that did know if it would cause harm to your child. 
Now, some people may say "Not all will be affected." So watching the roller coaster go, you see 1 person fall out of the coaster to their crashing death. Would you still allow your child to ride it, despite only one being harmed at of the bunch? Now lets talk about the maker of the coaster and the owner of the park. Are they not doing you an injustice of not providing to you a safe ride. That same park owner may even twist the story so that it seems that the children who suffered injuries were predisposed to or that the one that fell out wasn't securely fastened. But you wait and see that in fact more children have fallen out of the roller coaster to their deaths then you could imagine and even more have suffered injury days, weeks, or even months later.
Just a thought.
Again, I am not for or against vaccines. I am for informed decisions and SAFE and EFFECTIVE vaccines.


----------



## Ozzieshunni

Valid sources usually have .edu or .gov at the end of them :shrug:


----------



## JleStar

staralfur said:


> That mercola.com page lost me at "Though this is obviously not a double-blind controlled study, and depends on the individuals submitting the data to give accurate information..."

What is most important on the Mercola site is the interview with Barbara Loe Fisher that discusses the very important IOM report that Jaylynne cited (9 out of 10 times) as evidence.


----------



## veganmama

Ozzieshunni said:


> Valid sources usually have .edu or .gov at the end of them :shrug:

valid by whos standard? what makes them valid?

.gov sounds like government if you believe everything the government tells you, good luck!


----------



## JleStar

Ozzieshunni said:


> Valid sources usually have .edu or .gov at the end of them :shrug:

 Wonderful...and you still want to not look. That is your prerogative. I looked at Jaylynne's sources. Did you see the interview I posted about the same report Jaylynne was citing. Very interesting to say the least. Worth a look, If you are open and willing to see things from a different perspective.


----------



## JleStar

Ozzieshunni said:


> Valid sources usually have .edu or .gov at the end of them :shrug:

Just wondering if you looked at
nvic.org
I know the org is important to you. Thats cool! :thumbup:


----------



## Jaylynne

Mercola is outed as a quack trying to sell his own products and the FDA has given notice to his wonder drugs. 
https://www.quackwatch.com/11Ind/mercola.html


----------



## Jaylynne

As an independent clearinghouse for information on diseases and vaccines, NVIC does not advocate for or against the use of vaccines. We support the availability of all preventive health care options, including vaccines, and the right of consumers to make educated, voluntary health care choices

Nvic isn't saying they're against vaccines.


----------



## Jaylynne

The think twice website disclaimer specifically says their data may conflict with other study data and they are not medical practitioners so to use medical advice elsewhere

Here it is :
DISCLAIMER

* The information contained within the Thinktwice Global Vaccine Institute website is for educational and informational purposes only, and is* not to be construed as medical advice. Licensed health practitioners are available for this purpose.*

* The Thinktwice Global Vaccine Institute has endeavored to provide accurate and credible information. However, errors can occur. Therefore, readers are urged to verify all of the data on this website.

* *Some of the information presented on the Thinktwice Global Vaccine Institute website may conflict with data presented elsewhere.* Therefore, readers are encouraged to remain circumspect and use discretion when interpreting contradictory, complex or confusing concepts.

* The Thinktwice Global Vaccine Institute is not endorsed by pharmaceutical companies, the American Academy of Pediatrics, the FDA, CDC or any other federal, state or "official" organization. *For official information about vaccines, contact vaccine manufacturers, the FDA, CDC or World Health Organization.*

* Vaccine recommendations change rapidly. Immunization schedules are periodically revised. *Therefore, the FDA and CDC -- not the Thinktwice Global Vaccine Institute -- should be consulted for the most up-to-date information regarding who should or should not receive vaccines, at what ages, and the number of doses.*

* The Thinktwice Global Vaccine Institute does not recommend for or against vaccines. Parents and other concerned people must make this decision on their own. *Because the data on this website tends to implicate vaccines (find fault with them), readers are advised to balance the data presented here with data presented by "official" sources of vaccine information, including pharmaceutical companies, the FDA, CDC and World Health Organization.*

* The decision regarding whether or not to vaccinate is a personal one. *The authors of the Thinktwice Global Vaccine Institute website are neither health practitioners nor legal advisors, and make no claims in this regard. Therefore, none of the information on this website should be construed as medical or legal advice*. No one associated with this website recommends for or against vaccines. If you have questions regarding any of the information on this website, research immunizations to a greater degree so that you can make wise and informed decisions.


I bolded my issues with this website.


----------



## Zou

I've read 25 pages of this now and feel like I know 10 times less about the issue than I did before I started. My brain has been fried.


----------



## Jaylynne

.com websites typically represent commercial sites and in research generally are not as favorable as .edu and .gov

Here's a website that breaks down the different types of sites. 
https://www.usg.edu/galileo/skills/unit07/internet07_08.phtml


----------



## Ozzieshunni

Every college professor I've ever had?


----------



## JleStar

Jaylynne said:


> The think twice website disclaimer specifically says their data may conflict with other study data and they are not medical practitioners so to use medical advice elsewhere
> 
> Here it is :
> DISCLAIMER
> 
> * The information contained within the Thinktwice Global Vaccine Institute website is for educational and informational purposes only, and is* not to be construed as medical advice. Licensed health practitioners are available for this purpose.*
> 
> * The Thinktwice Global Vaccine Institute has endeavored to provide accurate and credible information. However, errors can occur. Therefore, readers are urged to verify all of the data on this website.
> 
> * *Some of the information presented on the Thinktwice Global Vaccine Institute website may conflict with data presented elsewhere.* Therefore, readers are encouraged to remain circumspect and use discretion when interpreting contradictory, complex or confusing concepts.
> 
> * The Thinktwice Global Vaccine Institute is not endorsed by pharmaceutical companies, the American Academy of Pediatrics, the FDA, CDC or any other federal, state or "official" organization. *For official information about vaccines, contact vaccine manufacturers, the FDA, CDC or World Health Organization.*
> 
> * Vaccine recommendations change rapidly. Immunization schedules are periodically revised. *Therefore, the FDA and CDC -- not the Thinktwice Global Vaccine Institute -- should be consulted for the most up-to-date information regarding who should or should not receive vaccines, at what ages, and the number of doses.*
> 
> * The Thinktwice Global Vaccine Institute does not recommend for or against vaccines. Parents and other concerned people must make this decision on their own. *Because the data on this website tends to implicate vaccines (find fault with them), readers are advised to balance the data presented here with data presented by "official" sources of vaccine information, including pharmaceutical companies, the FDA, CDC and World Health Organization.*
> 
> * The decision regarding whether or not to vaccinate is a personal one. *The authors of the Thinktwice Global Vaccine Institute website are neither health practitioners nor legal advisors, and make no claims in this regard. Therefore, none of the information on this website should be construed as medical or legal advice*. No one associated with this website recommends for or against vaccines. If you have questions regarding any of the information on this website, research immunizations to a greater degree so that you can make wise and informed decisions.
> 
> 
> I bolded my issues with this website.


Important to note I guess. I read that and am aware but that still does not stop me from listening to the studies and articles they have cited. 

And you are aware that even your DOCTOR who administers the vaccine is not liable if your child is injured. Do you now trust his advice if he is not liable if your child is injured? They don't take responsibility. Thinktwice is doing the same thing because the DEBATE is still up for the jury. 

The only ones that do take some responsibility are your governments who have a database with injured children that they pay out.


----------



## JleStar

Jaylynne said:


> As an independent clearinghouse for information on diseases and vaccines, NVIC does not advocate for or against the use of vaccines. We support the availability of all preventive health care options, including vaccines, and the right of consumers to make educated, voluntary health care choices
> 
> Nvic isn't saying they're against vaccines.

Precisely..They are for INFORMED decisions. If you took a minute to look through their site you will see many articles and studies that show how vaccines have NEVER been proven safe or effective.


----------



## Jaylynne

JleStar said:


> .
> 
> Here is analogy (may not be the best but here goes... )
> 
> Would you allow your child to ride on a roller coaster whose safety harnesses have not been proven to be safe or effective? Would you take the risk of bodily injury? What if the injuries are not apparent directly after riding the coaster. Maybe a week later your child has brain inflammation or is suffering from head trauma. Would you not point your finger back at that coaster that did know if it would cause harm to your child.
> Now, some people may say "Not all will be affected." So watching the roller coaster go, you see 1 person fall out of the coaster to their crashing death. Would you still allow your child to ride it, despite only one being harmed at of the bunch? Now lets talk about the maker of the coaster and the owner of the park. Are they not doing you an injustice of not providing to you a safe ride. That same park owner may even twist the story so that it seems that the children who suffered injuries were predisposed to or that the one that fell out wasn't securely fastened. But you wait and see that in fact more children have fallen out of the roller coaster to their deaths then you could imagine and even more have suffered injury days, weeks, or even months later.
> Just a thought.
> Again, I am not for or against vaccines. I am for informed decisions and SAFE and EFFECTIVE vaccines.

Let me give you my own analogy. 

You would rather your children go to warfare (biological disease/illness) without any type of training (vaccines), just using their instincts (natural immunity) because they will grow and be better from it after the war is over. We would rather our children go to training (vaccines designed to simulate the illness) so that when they have to go to war they will have a far better understanding of how to fight the enemy. 

No one is saying vaccines are 100% safe. That would be insane. Crossing the road isn't 100% safe. Putting your baby in a bed or cosleeping isn't 100% safe. Nothing in life is 100% safe. It's all about minimizing risk.


----------



## Jaylynne

JleStar said:


> Jaylynne said:
> 
> 
> As an independent clearinghouse for information on diseases and vaccines, NVIC does not advocate for or against the use of vaccines. We support the availability of all preventive health care options, including vaccines, and the right of consumers to make educated, voluntary health care choices
> 
> Nvic isn't saying they're against vaccines.
> 
> Precisely..They are for INFORMED decisions. If you took a minute to look through their site you will see many articles and studies that show how vaccines have NEVER been proven safe or effective.Click to expand...

Never effective huh? No one ever said they are 100% safe.


----------



## Jaylynne

JleStar said:


> Jaylynne said:
> 
> 
> The think twice website disclaimer specifically says their data may conflict with other study data and they are not medical practitioners so to use medical advice elsewhere
> 
> Here it is :
> DISCLAIMER
> 
> * The information contained within the Thinktwice Global Vaccine Institute website is for educational and informational purposes only, and is* not to be construed as medical advice. Licensed health practitioners are available for this purpose.*
> 
> * The Thinktwice Global Vaccine Institute has endeavored to provide accurate and credible information. However, errors can occur. Therefore, readers are urged to verify all of the data on this website.
> 
> * *Some of the information presented on the Thinktwice Global Vaccine Institute website may conflict with data presented elsewhere.* Therefore, readers are encouraged to remain circumspect and use discretion when interpreting contradictory, complex or confusing concepts.
> 
> * The Thinktwice Global Vaccine Institute is not endorsed by pharmaceutical companies, the American Academy of Pediatrics, the FDA, CDC or any other federal, state or "official" organization. *For official information about vaccines, contact vaccine manufacturers, the FDA, CDC or World Health Organization.*
> 
> * Vaccine recommendations change rapidly. Immunization schedules are periodically revised. *Therefore, the FDA and CDC -- not the Thinktwice Global Vaccine Institute -- should be consulted for the most up-to-date information regarding who should or should not receive vaccines, at what ages, and the number of doses.*
> 
> * The Thinktwice Global Vaccine Institute does not recommend for or against vaccines. Parents and other concerned people must make this decision on their own. *Because the data on this website tends to implicate vaccines (find fault with them), readers are advised to balance the data presented here with data presented by "official" sources of vaccine information, including pharmaceutical companies, the FDA, CDC and World Health Organization.*
> 
> * The decision regarding whether or not to vaccinate is a personal one. *The authors of the Thinktwice Global Vaccine Institute website are neither health practitioners nor legal advisors, and make no claims in this regard. Therefore, none of the information on this website should be construed as medical or legal advice*. No one associated with this website recommends for or against vaccines. If you have questions regarding any of the information on this website, research immunizations to a greater degree so that you can make wise and informed decisions.
> 
> 
> I bolded my issues with this website.
> 
> 
> Important to note I guess. I read that and am aware but that still does not stop me from listening to the studies and articles they have cited.
> 
> And you are aware that even your DOCTOR who administers the vaccine is not liable if your child is injured. Do you now trust his advice if he is not liable if your child is injured? They don't take responsibility. Thinktwice is doing the same thing because the DEBATE is still up for the jury.
> 
> The only ones that do take some responsibility are your governments who have a database with injured children that they pay out.Click to expand...

I do trust my dr as she takes the same risks as I do and vaccinated her children.


----------



## JleStar

Jaylynne said:


> Mercola is outed as a quack trying to sell his own products and the FDA has given notice to his wonder drugs.
> https://www.quackwatch.com/11Ind/mercola.html[/QUOTE
> 
> The best way to dismiss a person is to call them crazy. I wonder who Mercola is making nervous? Ask yourself that question. I love it! Even if you only just listened to one interview..the one I posted above with Barbara Loe Fisher you will see that Mercola is in search of the truth. What vetted interest does he have in you vaccinating or not vaccinating your child?
> 
> *Did you hear the interview where they discuss the only recent, important, significant study that you yourself cited as proof that vaccines are safe and effective. *
> 
> Basically, if you read the report you would know that the report shows that researchers still *DON'T KNOW*.
> I still haven't seen proof of the pro- vacciners that they are safe and effective.
> 
> The Debate is still open in my view. I am hoping that others viewing this are seeing the issue with this topic.
> ---Why is it being mandated?
> ---Why is something that can potentially kill and harm children still be used?
> ---IS herd immunity a flawed concept?
> ---Who interests are vested in vaccines?
> 
> God bless to all..I think I will be leaving for a while. this has certainly been draining to say the least.
> good luck to all and your informed decisions. Don't depend on the CDC to give you an unbiased account of recent important vaccine data.
> 
> Again, take care!
> I can't promise that I will stay away for long though :haha:


----------



## Jaylynne

](*,)


----------



## JleStar

Jaylynne said:


> JleStar said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jaylynne said:
> 
> 
> As an independent clearinghouse for information on diseases and vaccines, NVIC does not advocate for or against the use of vaccines. We support the availability of all preventive health care options, including vaccines, and the right of consumers to make educated, voluntary health care choices
> 
> Nvic isn't saying they're against vaccines.
> 
> Precisely..They are for INFORMED decisions. If you took a minute to look through their site you will see many articles and studies that show how vaccines have NEVER been proven safe or effective.Click to expand...
> 
> Never effective huh? No one ever said they are 100% safe.Click to expand...

yes never effective.


----------



## JleStar

Jaylynne said:


> ](*,)

I concur that sentiment.
You never answered my question...Did you hear the interview I posted on the important IMO report you posted in 9 our of your 10 citations of evidence?
If you did, then I will be happy, even if you agree or not.

:dohh:


----------



## Jaylynne

Damn, well then explain polio and small pox


----------



## Jaylynne

JleStar said:


> Jaylynne said:
> 
> 
> ](*,)
> 
> I concur that sentiment.
> You never answered my question...Did you hear the interview I posted on the important IMO report you posted in 9 our of your 10 citations of evidence?
> If you did, then I will be happy, even if you agree or not.
> 
> :dohh:Click to expand...

I will absolutely look at it when I have enough time to recover from banging my head on a wall.


----------



## Ozzieshunni

Sometimes, this is one of those things where you can't win.....and just have to hope.... :hugs:


----------



## My_First

So the question above, what has Mercola got to gain...um sales in his dietry programme and funding into his 'Health Association'.
"I guarantee that this and not vaccines and pills are the answer. I have spent over two decades developing my dietary program, and through my respected clinic it has proven to help tens of thousands of people build their immunity, overcome disease"


----------



## tu123

Jaylynne said:


> The think twice website disclaimer specifically says their data may conflict with other study data and they are not medical practitioners so to use medical advice elsewhere
> 
> Here it is :
> DISCLAIMER
> 
> * The information contained within the Thinktwice Global Vaccine Institute website is for educational and informational purposes only, and is* not to be construed as medical advice. Licensed health practitioners are available for this purpose.*
> 
> * The Thinktwice Global Vaccine Institute has endeavored to provide accurate and credible information. However, errors can occur. Therefore, readers are urged to verify all of the data on this website.
> 
> * *Some of the information presented on the Thinktwice Global Vaccine Institute website may conflict with data presented elsewhere.* Therefore, readers are encouraged to remain circumspect and use discretion when interpreting contradictory, complex or confusing concepts.
> 
> * The Thinktwice Global Vaccine Institute is not endorsed by pharmaceutical companies, the American Academy of Pediatrics, the FDA, CDC or any other federal, state or "official" organization. *For official information about vaccines, contact vaccine manufacturers, the FDA, CDC or World Health Organization.*
> 
> * Vaccine recommendations change rapidly. Immunization schedules are periodically revised. *Therefore, the FDA and CDC -- not the Thinktwice Global Vaccine Institute -- should be consulted for the most up-to-date information regarding who should or should not receive vaccines, at what ages, and the number of doses.*
> 
> * The Thinktwice Global Vaccine Institute does not recommend for or against vaccines. Parents and other concerned people must make this decision on their own. *Because the data on this website tends to implicate vaccines (find fault with them), readers are advised to balance the data presented here with data presented by "official" sources of vaccine information, including pharmaceutical companies, the FDA, CDC and World Health Organization.*
> 
> * The decision regarding whether or not to vaccinate is a personal one. *The authors of the Thinktwice Global Vaccine Institute website are neither health practitioners nor legal advisors, and make no claims in this regard. Therefore, none of the information on this website should be construed as medical or legal advice*. No one associated with this website recommends for or against vaccines. If you have questions regarding any of the information on this website, research immunizations to a greater degree so that you can make wise and informed decisions.
> 
> 
> I bolded my issues with this website.

Exactly. These sources can be read and interpreted either way. 


None of the sources provide any argument against that has statistical significance.


----------



## Jaylynne

https://www.polioeradication.org/po...nce/imb/5imbmeeting/imbreport_january2012.pdf


Read that if you think vaccinations have no effect.


----------



## SabrinaKat

I went through some of the sources offered by 'the opposing side', albeit briefly, and noticed that the footnotes/citations within mainly refer back to the author's own evidence, although with a few from the BMJ, etc., and a few references (e.g. the worst smallpox epidemic in the 1860s in England post-vaccination) that looped back to the author's own 'research', e.g. no evidence (even wikipedia disputed!). Foot-noting was pretty weak and no bibliographic stuff, either.

Also, this NVIC site says it's a charity - fair enough, but who funds them? That's as important as knowing that the US government funds the CDC.

Also, somebody mentioned thalidomide and its usage in the 1950s-1960s, and unfortunately, within a few years, it was sadly, pretty obvious what had caused the tragic amputations -- in 1961, the Australian McBride and the German Lenz proved it, incidentially, it was never licensed in the US (wikipedia, again).....

I guess I'm being pedantic and for that I hope I am not offending anybody. It's just I do have a research (although historical/ancient rome) background and I love footnotes....and reading Latin....and BnB....

best wishes (and I'm bowing out for the night, am exhausted as LO is teething, but try NOT to kill each other over the next few hours!)

bye!

ps. just was looking at wikipedia (please note - did not use for PhD thesis!) and it states: 'In Japan, the MMR vaccination has been discontinued, with single vaccines being used for each disease. Rates of autism diagnosis have continued to increase, showing no correlation with the change'. (from Honda H, Shimizu Y, Rutter M (2005). "No effect of MMR withdrawal on the incidence of autism: a total population study". J Child Psychol Psychiatry 46 (6): 572&#8211;9.) -- I did mention me like footnotes!

pps. just so you know, my OH disputes the usage of vaccinations as being of the 'herd' mentality and has me looking into the ingredients of the MMR as he says it has aluminium (sp), however, as a historian, I also know how modern medicine has changed lives.

hugs and kisses!


----------



## Jaylynne

Pertussis vaccine effectiveness. New England journal of medicine
https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp1209051

Pertussis immunization in the United States reduced the average incidence from 157 per 100,000 population in the early 1940s to less than 1 per 100,000 in 1973.


----------



## Dk1234

JleStar said:


> Jaylynne said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JleStar said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jaylynne said:
> 
> 
> As an independent clearinghouse for information on diseases and vaccines, NVIC does not advocate for or against the use of vaccines. We support the availability of all preventive health care options, including vaccines, and the right of consumers to make educated, voluntary health care choices
> 
> Nvic isn't saying they're against vaccines.
> 
> Precisely..They are for INFORMED decisions. If you took a minute to look through their site you will see many articles and studies that show how vaccines have NEVER been proven safe or effective.Click to expand...
> 
> Never effective huh? No one ever said they are 100% safe.Click to expand...
> 
> yes never effective.Click to expand...

If you sriousky believe that vaccines are never effective you are delusional.


----------



## JleStar

Dk1234 said:


> JleStar said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jaylynne said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JleStar said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jaylynne said:
> 
> 
> As an independent clearinghouse for information on diseases and vaccines, NVIC does not advocate for or against the use of vaccines. We support the availability of all preventive health care options, including vaccines, and the right of consumers to make educated, voluntary health care choices
> 
> Nvic isn't saying they're against vaccines.
> 
> Precisely..They are for INFORMED decisions. If you took a minute to look through their site you will see many articles and studies that show how vaccines have NEVER been proven safe or effective.Click to expand...
> 
> Never effective huh? No one ever said they are 100% safe.Click to expand...
> 
> yes never effective.Click to expand...
> 
> If you sriousky believe that vaccines are never effective you are delusional.Click to expand...

And your a b. itch...we are sharing info not name calling..but I guess I stooped to your naive level.


----------



## JleStar

Jaylynne said:


> Damn, well then explain polio and small pox

They were on there way out before vaccines were introduced


----------



## Ozzieshunni

Ummm.....


----------



## Jaylynne

Pretty sure calling someone a bitch is pot calling the kettle black and worse than delusional. You have to ignore a LARGE quantity of information to state that there is no proven effectiveness of vaccines. You state that younger neither pro nor against vaccines. I call bullshit. How could you possibly be on the fence if you see no effectiveness of a vaccine.


----------



## JleStar

Jaylynne said:


> JleStar said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jaylynne said:
> 
> 
> ](*,)
> 
> I concur that sentiment.
> You never answered my question...Did you hear the interview I posted on the important IMO report you posted in 9 our of your 10 citations of evidence?
> If you did, then I will be happy, even if you agree or not.
> 
> :dohh:Click to expand...
> 
> I will absolutely look at it when I have enough time to recover from banging my head on a wall.Click to expand...

You didn't even give me the respect of looking at the one piece of info I wanted you to look at. Instead you made a valiant effort to discredit everything I presented. Don't bother looking at it. It's only the most important piece of info from a report you cited 9 times.
Let's just agree to disagree.

Maybe you will revisit this subject down the line and say...hey that lady that people were insulting because she thought outside the box had a point or maybe I will say the same. Either way, the "evidence" you have showed me does not sit right at the moment. So I will continue to postpone


----------



## JleStar

Jaylynne said:


> Pretty sure calling someone a bitch is pot calling the kettle black and worse than delusional. You have to ignore a LARGE quantity of information to state that there is no proven effectiveness of vaccines. You state that younger neither pro nor against vaccines. I call bullshit. How could you possibly be on the fence if you see no effectiveness of a vaccine.

Because I have seen first hand people becoming Ill from the same vaccine that claims immunity.
Break outs happen in areas where there is a high population of vaccinated
Herd immunity is flawed.

The bitch comment is between me and the bitch respectfully.

This is like an epic battle of the likes of David and Goliath. Goliath being big pharma with their wonderful sources and smeared campaigns against the smaller....it's ok though, I am still waiting for proof that vaccines are safe and effective..do that I may one day vaccinate. Right now, it looks pretty bleak


----------



## booflebump

JleStar said:


> The bitch comment is between me and the bitch respectfully.

That may be the case, but open name calling is not permitted on the forum - either take your personal issues to pm, or stick each other on ignore so other members don't have to be subjected to it


----------



## TennisGal

This was going so well...informative, friendly - largely - debate. Why reduce it to such levels? A shame.


----------



## TennisGal

Cross post, Boofs...sorry!


----------



## StaceyKor

TennisGal said:


> This was going so well...informative, friendly - largely - debate. Why reduce it to such levels? A shame.

Yeah, I agree x


----------



## TennisGal

_Measles mortality and measles vaccine efficacy were determined during outbreaks in three Gambian villages. There were 146 cases of measles among 1073 children younger than 11 years. 30% of the children had been vaccinated against measles. The attack rate in unvaccinated children aged 9-47 months was 43% compared with 6% for children of the same age with documented measles vaccination. Vaccine efficacy was 37% for children vaccinated at 6-8 months of age and 89% for children vaccinated at 9 months or older. 5% of measles cases died before the initial investigation of the outbreaks and a further 10% of cases died during the ensuing 9 months. Only 1% of children who did not contract measles died in the 9 months after the outbreaks. Case-fatality rates were highest for measles patients less than 1 year old (64%) and fell with age. Measles remains a significant source of acute and delayed mortality in unvaccinated African populations._

From The Lancet.


----------



## Ozzieshunni

Maybe we can move past it now?


----------



## TennisGal

Hope I have with my vast amount of italics :haha:


----------



## JleStar

booflebump said:


> JleStar said:
> 
> 
> The bitch comment is between me and the bitch respectfully.
> 
> That may be the case, but open name calling is not permitted on the forum - either take your personal issues to pm, or stick each other on ignore so other members don't have to be subjected to itClick to expand...

I agree. Was dk1234 also reprimanded for calling me delusional? Just wondering. I apologize to all who were offended. It's not in my nature to be vicious...as you will see from my previous post, jaylynne and I were doing fine. I was gracious to all the info provided and presented even when not aligned with my own beliefs. However, when someone just plows in who hasn't been part of the conversation and calls me delusional, irresponsible or a conspiracy theorist then i take offense to that. I shouldn't have called her a bitch and she should have not called me delusional.


----------



## Jaylynne

If this is a battle between David and Goliath, Goliath would be the years of intense research and a vast amount of nonprofit work dedicated to eradicating harmful diseases from the world. David would be those who choose to believe Dan brown books come to life, conspiracy theorists and those who believe informed choices means going against research claiming pharma tainting. 

The thing is everyone donates money to things they believe in. No one claimed vaccines were completely safe. I am not ignorant to the possible side effects. 

Nothing is between you and another on a public forum unless you are private messaging. I will defend someone when you call them a derogatory term. 

You claim I haven't read the links. I am in the process of doing it. Would you like a half assed response? Have you read my links of proven vaccine effectiveness?


----------



## Ozzieshunni

JleStar said:


> booflebump said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JleStar said:
> 
> 
> The bitch comment is between me and the bitch respectfully.
> 
> That may be the case, but open name calling is not permitted on the forum - either take your personal issues to pm, or stick each other on ignore so other members don't have to be subjected to itClick to expand...
> 
> I agree. Was dk1234 also reprimanded for calling me delusional? Just wondering. I apologize to all who were offended. It's not in my nature to be vicious...as you will see from my previous post, jaylynne and I were doing fine. I was gracious to all the info provided and presented even when not aligned with my own beliefs. However, when someone just plows in who hasn't been part of the conversation and calls me delusional, irresponsible or a conspiracy theorist then i take offense to that. I shouldn't have called her a bitch and she should have not called me delusional.Click to expand...

Arguing with an admin is probably not the best idea. Bitch vs. delusional is a HUGE leap. Maybe just leave it and move on :flower:


----------



## JleStar

TennisGal said:


> This was going so well...informative, friendly - largely - debate. Why reduce it to such levels? A shame.

Thank you tennis gal. I hope it has been informative no matter where you stand with the subject. Unfortunately, someone attacked me and being sleep deprived I reacted accordingly...let the debate continue. I need a break. Wish I had a cig...quit that too.
:wacko:


----------



## JleStar

Jaylynne said:


> If this is a battle between David and Goliath, Goliath would be the years of intense research and a vast amount of nonprofit work dedicated to eradicating harmful diseases from the world. David would be those who choose to believe Dan brown books come to life, conspiracy theorists and those who believe informed choices means going against research claiming pharma tainting.
> 
> The thing is everyone donates money to things they believe in. No one claimed vaccines were completely safe. I am not ignorant to the possible side effects.
> 
> Nothing is between you and another on a public forum unless you are private messaging. I will defend someone when you call them a derogatory term.
> 
> You claim I haven't read the links. I am in the process of doing it. Would you like a half assed response? Have you read my links of proven vaccine effectiveness?

Wow, my friend. You sound a bit snippy. 
That's ok...this is vigorous work..I know. :hugs: still enjoying the debate I some sort of masacistic way lol


----------



## patch2006uk

JleStar said:


> Jaylynne said:
> 
> 
> Pretty sure calling someone a bitch is pot calling the kettle black and worse than delusional. You have to ignore a LARGE quantity of information to state that there is no proven effectiveness of vaccines. You state that younger neither pro nor against vaccines. I call bullshit. How could you possibly be on the fence if you see no effectiveness of a vaccine.
> 
> Because I have seen first hand people becoming Ill from the same vaccine that claims immunity.
> Break outs happen in areas where there is a high population of vaccinated
> Herd immunity is flawed.
> 
> The bitch comment is between me and the bitch respectfully.
> 
> This is like an epic battle of the likes of David and Goliath. Goliath being big pharma with their wonderful sources and smeared campaigns against the smaller....it's ok though, I am still waiting for proof that vaccines are safe and effective..do that I may one day vaccinate. Right now, it looks pretty bleakClick to expand...

Well aren't you a delight?

Vaccines aren't 100% effective, same as not all drugs, operations or anything else. Until diseases are eradicated, there will be breakouts. The point of a vaccine is to lower the chance of infection, or seriousness of the infection in event of contracting it. 

I only hope the mods don't close this thread based on your attitude alone, because everyone else seems capable of talking to each other like grown up human beings. It would be a shame for your comments to end a polite debate.


----------



## booflebump

Ozzieshunni said:


> JleStar said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> booflebump said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JleStar said:
> 
> 
> The bitch comment is between me and the bitch respectfully.
> 
> That may be the case, but open name calling is not permitted on the forum - either take your personal issues to pm, or stick each other on ignore so other members don't have to be subjected to itClick to expand...
> 
> I agree. Was dk1234 also reprimanded for calling me delusional? Just wondering. I apologize to all who were offended. It's not in my nature to be vicious...as you will see from my previous post, jaylynne and I were doing fine. I was gracious to all the info provided and presented even when not aligned with my own beliefs. However, when someone just plows in who hasn't been part of the conversation and calls me delusional, irresponsible or a conspiracy theorist then i take offense to that. I shouldn't have called her a bitch and she should have not called me delusional.Click to expand...
> 
> Arguing with an admin is probably not the best idea. Bitch vs. delusional is a HUGE leap. Maybe just leave it and move on :flower:Click to expand...

I was addressing both of you - and as pointed out, there's a big difference between what you were called and what you chose to call the other poster on two occassions. I suggest that since this thread was managing to be conducted in a relatively civil manner beforehand that everyone moves on from this small exchange and continue the debate as adults


----------



## JleStar

booflebump said:


> Ozzieshunni said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JleStar said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> booflebump said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JleStar said:
> 
> 
> The bitch comment is between me and the bitch respectfully.
> 
> That may be the case, but open name calling is not permitted on the forum - either take your personal issues to pm, or stick each other on ignore so other members don't have to be subjected to itClick to expand...
> 
> I agree. Was dk1234 also reprimanded for calling me delusional? Just wondering. I apologize to all who were offended. It's not in my nature to be vicious...as you will see from my previous post, jaylynne and I were doing fine. I was gracious to all the info provided and presented even when not aligned with my own beliefs. However, when someone just plows in who hasn't been part of the conversation and calls me delusional, irresponsible or a conspiracy theorist then i take offense to that. I shouldn't have called her a bitch and she should have not called me delusional.Click to expand...
> 
> Arguing with an admin is probably not the best idea. Bitch vs. delusional is a HUGE leap. Maybe just leave it and move on :flower:Click to expand...
> 
> I was addressing both of you - and as pointed out, there's a big difference between what you were called and what you chose to call the other poster on two occassions. I suggest that since this thread was managing to be conducted in a relatively civil manner beforehand that everyone moves on from this small exchange and continue the debate as adultsClick to expand...

The b word to me is a slang word meaning very mean..that's how I meant it... Maybe I should have replied you are being very mean...delusional in the context she said it, is quite offensive..she was calling me crazy...would you rather be called crazy or mean? Lol sorry to make light of this. I don't want to beat a dead horse. Let's move on.


----------



## booflebump

JleStar said:


> [
> The b word to me is a slang word meaning very mean..that's how I meant it... Maybe I should have replied you are being very mean...delusional in the context she said it, is quite offensive..she was calling me crazy...would you rather be called crazy or mean? Lol sorry to make light of this. I don't want to beat a dead horse. Let's move on.

Well I'm sure you are more than aware that isn't what it means to most other people and is a derogatory term not often used in jest. I don't think anything further needs to be said


----------



## JleStar

patch2006uk said:


> JleStar said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jaylynne said:
> 
> 
> Pretty sure calling someone a bitch is pot calling the kettle black and worse than delusional. You have to ignore a LARGE quantity of information to state that there is no proven effectiveness of vaccines. You state that younger neither pro nor against vaccines. I call bullshit. How could you possibly be on the fence if you see no effectiveness of a vaccine.
> 
> Because I have seen first hand people becoming Ill from the same vaccine that claims immunity.
> Break outs happen in areas where there is a high population of vaccinated
> Herd immunity is flawed.
> 
> The bitch comment is between me and the bitch respectfully.
> 
> This is like an epic battle of the likes of David and Goliath. Goliath being big pharma with their wonderful sources and smeared campaigns against the smaller....it's ok though, I am still waiting for proof that vaccines are safe and effective..do that I may one day vaccinate. Right now, it looks pretty bleakClick to expand...
> 
> Well aren't you a delight?
> 
> Vaccines aren't 100% effective, same as not all drugs, operations or anything else. Until diseases are eradicated, there will be breakouts. The point of a vaccine is to lower the chance of infection, or seriousness of the infection in event of contracting it.
> 
> I only hope the mods don't close this thread based on your attitude alone, because everyone else seems capable of talking to each other like grown up human beings. It would be a shame for your comments to end a polite debate.Click to expand...

Thank you. Most who know me personably feel that I am a delight and very kind as well. 
Thanks for your opinion of me..:happydance:
Ok wht you said in reference to vaccines is true, it is to lower the chance of infection. I guess the few ( if not more then we know)that are effected negatively are just collateral damage. The debate is on the efficacy and safety. The safety has certainly not been proven yet and the efficacy is still up for debate.


----------



## JleStar

booflebump said:


> JleStar said:
> 
> 
> [
> The b word to me is a slang word meaning very mean..that's how I meant it... Maybe I should have replied you are being very mean...delusional in the context she said it, is quite offensive..she was calling me crazy...would you rather be called crazy or mean? Lol sorry to make light of this. I don't want to beat a dead horse. Let's move on.
> 
> Well I'm sure you are more than aware that isn't what it means to most other people and is a derogatory term not often used in jest. I don't think anything further needs to be saidClick to expand...

Agree:thumbup:


----------



## Jaylynne

Anyone else still waiting for bellas response? I see lurking every now and then but that's all.


----------



## patch2006uk

JleStar said:


> patch2006uk said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JleStar said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jaylynne said:
> 
> 
> Pretty sure calling someone a bitch is pot calling the kettle black and worse than delusional. You have to ignore a LARGE quantity of information to state that there is no proven effectiveness of vaccines. You state that younger neither pro nor against vaccines. I call bullshit. How could you possibly be on the fence if you see no effectiveness of a vaccine.
> 
> Because I have seen first hand people becoming Ill from the same vaccine that claims immunity.
> Break outs happen in areas where there is a high population of vaccinated
> Herd immunity is flawed.
> 
> The bitch comment is between me and the bitch respectfully.
> 
> This is like an epic battle of the likes of David and Goliath. Goliath being big pharma with their wonderful sources and smeared campaigns against the smaller....it's ok though, I am still waiting for proof that vaccines are safe and effective..do that I may one day vaccinate. Right now, it looks pretty bleakClick to expand...
> 
> Well aren't you a delight?
> 
> Vaccines aren't 100% effective, same as not all drugs, operations or anything else. Until diseases are eradicated, there will be breakouts. The point of a vaccine is to lower the chance of infection, or seriousness of the infection in event of contracting it.
> 
> I only hope the mods don't close this thread based on your attitude alone, because everyone else seems capable of talking to each other like grown up human beings. It would be a shame for your comments to end a polite debate.Click to expand...
> 
> Thank you. Most who know me personably feel that I am a delight and very kind as well.
> Thanks for your opinion of me..:happydance:
> Ok wht you said in reference to vaccines is true, it is to lower the chance of infection. I guess the few ( if not more then we know)that are effected negatively are just collateral damage. The debate is on the efficacy and safety. The safety has certainly not been proven yet and the efficacy is still up for debate.Click to expand...

Everything in life carries a risk. Vaccinations carry a risk, but so does not vaccinating. I've weighed up the evidence, and to me it seems pretty clear that vaccine injury is less common than injury from the illnesses vaccinated against. My LO already has a hearing loss, I don't want to risk his hearing further with measles if I can do anything to avoid him getting it.


----------



## JleStar

patch2006uk said:


> JleStar said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> patch2006uk said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JleStar said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jaylynne said:
> 
> 
> Pretty sure calling someone a bitch is pot calling the kettle black and worse than delusional. You have to ignore a LARGE quantity of information to state that there is no proven effectiveness of vaccines. You state that younger neither pro nor against vaccines. I call bullshit. How could you possibly be on the fence if you see no effectiveness of a vaccine.
> 
> Because I have seen first hand people becoming Ill from the same vaccine that claims immunity.
> Break outs happen in areas where there is a high population of vaccinated
> Herd immunity is flawed.
> 
> The bitch comment is between me and the bitch respectfully.
> 
> 
> This is like an epic battle of the likes of David and Goliath. Goliath being big pharma with their wonderful sources and smeared campaigns against the smaller....it's ok though, I am still waiting for proof that vaccines are safe and effective..do that I may one day vaccinate. Right now, it looks pretty bleakClick to expand...
> 
> Well aren't you a delight?
> 
> Vaccines aren't 100% effective, same as not all drugs, operations or anything else. Until diseases are eradicated, there will be breakouts. The point of a vaccine is to lower the chance of infection, or seriousness of the infection in event of contracting it.
> 
> I only hope the mods don't close this thread based on your attitude alone, because everyone else seems capable of talking to each other like grown up human beings. It would be a shame for your comments to end a polite debate.Click to expand...
> 
> Thank you. Most who know me personably feel that I am a delight and very kind as well.
> Thanks for your opinion of me..:happydance:
> Ok wht you said in reference to vaccines is true, it is to lower the chance of infection. I guess the few ( if not more then we know)that are effected negatively are just collateral damage. The debate is on the efficacy and safety. The safety has certainly not been proven yet and the efficacy is still up for debate.Click to expand...
> 
> Everything in life carries a risk. Vaccinations carry a risk, but so does not vaccinating. I've weighed up the evidence, and to me it seems pretty clear that vaccine injury is less common than injury from the illnesses vaccinated against. My LO already has a hearing loss, I don't want to risk his hearing further with measles if I can do anything to avoid him getting it.Click to expand...

I understand. Do what you feel is best? It's nice to have a choice, isn't it?


----------



## staralfur

JleStar said:


> patch2006uk said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JleStar said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jaylynne said:
> 
> 
> Pretty sure calling someone a bitch is pot calling the kettle black and worse than delusional. You have to ignore a LARGE quantity of information to state that there is no proven effectiveness of vaccines. You state that younger neither pro nor against vaccines. I call bullshit. How could you possibly be on the fence if you see no effectiveness of a vaccine.
> 
> Because I have seen first hand people becoming Ill from the same vaccine that claims immunity.
> Break outs happen in areas where there is a high population of vaccinated
> Herd immunity is flawed.
> 
> The bitch comment is between me and the bitch respectfully.
> 
> This is like an epic battle of the likes of David and Goliath. Goliath being big pharma with their wonderful sources and smeared campaigns against the smaller....it's ok though, I am still waiting for proof that vaccines are safe and effective..do that I may one day vaccinate. Right now, it looks pretty bleakClick to expand...
> 
> Well aren't you a delight?
> 
> Vaccines aren't 100% effective, same as not all drugs, operations or anything else. Until diseases are eradicated, there will be breakouts. The point of a vaccine is to lower the chance of infection, or seriousness of the infection in event of contracting it.
> 
> I only hope the mods don't close this thread based on your attitude alone, because everyone else seems capable of talking to each other like grown up human beings. It would be a shame for your comments to end a polite debate.Click to expand...
> 
> Thank you. Most who know me personably feel that I am a delight and very kind as well.
> Thanks for your opinion of me..:happydance:
> Ok wht you said in reference to vaccines is true, it is to lower the chance of infection. I guess the few ( if not more then we know)that are effected negatively are just collateral damage. The debate is on the efficacy and safety. The safety has certainly not been proven yet and the efficacy is still up for debate.Click to expand...

So if we were to let these diseases run their course, and eventually kill themselves off, many many people would die in the process. Those people are then just "collateral damage" then, too. 

The point is to make every attempt to make sure as few people as possible lose their lives to dangerous diseases that can be prevented.

Unfortunately it is not a guarantee, and yes, occasionally vaccines affect people negatively. But I fail to see how letting a disease just die down on its own is the preferred alternative. Surely you're aware of how catastrophic some infectious diseases can be?


----------



## patch2006uk

Except that the choice of not vaccinating exposes those most vulnerable to the diseases. Your child may not die if they contract measles, but mrs Hudson over the road with a heart condition, who's not healthy enough to even withstand the inactive vaccine version of measles, might die because your LO was sick and gave it to her. The choice to vaccinate puts one person at risk of vaccine injury. One person not vaccinating potentially affects many more people.


----------



## StaceyKor

Completely agree with patch... I would rather know I had done everything in my power to prevent my child from getting ill and potential ldelong side effects. There has been no proven link that (going back to the original point) MMR causes autism, infact this has been ruled out by health authorities and research organisations all over the world (as can be seen from the numerous links the ladies on here have previously provided). However, as some people still choose to question these facts (and I dont mean the mums posting on thos thread... I mean companies who work off of fictitious information) it seems unlikely that we will resolve this issue anytime soon. Clearly we all have seperate views on the subject. Some, like myself, are very much pro-vaccine, whilst others will be anti-vaccine...maybe because of things they have heard/read or indeed experienced if their child had a negative reaction to any vaccine - not just MMR. As others have said, most drugs are not 100% safe, but for the majority of people achieve exactly what the pharmaceutical company produced them for x


----------



## TennisGal

My lancet quote got lost! Anyway, it basically states: attack rate 43% unvax'd. 6% vax'd.

Measles remains, to quote, A significant source of acute and delayed mortality in unvaccinated African populations.

Hence why our friend is pretty incredulous that vaccine uptake is on the decline.

https://allafrica.com/stories/201209140167.html

Interesting...


----------



## JleStar

staralfur said:


> JleStar said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> patch2006uk said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JleStar said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jaylynne said:
> 
> 
> Pretty sure calling someone a bitch is pot calling the kettle black and worse than delusional. You have to ignore a LARGE quantity of information to state that there is no proven effectiveness of vaccines. You state that younger neither pro nor against vaccines. I call bullshit. How could you possibly be on the fence if you see no effectiveness of a vaccine.
> 
> Because I have seen first hand people becoming Ill from the same vaccine that claims immunity.
> Break outs happen in areas where there is a high population of vaccinated
> Herd immunity is flawed.
> 
> The bitch comment is between me and the bitch respectfully.
> 
> This is like an epic battle of the likes of David and Goliath. Goliath being big pharma with their wonderful sources and smeared campaigns against the smaller....it's ok though, I am still waiting for proof that vaccines are safe and effective..do that I may one day vaccinate. Right now, it looks pretty bleakClick to expand...
> 
> Well aren't you a delight?
> 
> Vaccines aren't 100% effective, same as not all drugs, operations or anything else. Until diseases are eradicated, there will be breakouts. The point of a vaccine is to lower the chance of infection, or seriousness of the infection in event of contracting it.
> 
> I only hope the mods don't close this thread based on your attitude alone, because everyone else seems capable of talking to each other like grown up human beings. It would be a shame for your comments to end a polite debate.Click to expand...
> 
> Thank you. Most who know me personably feel that I am a delight and very kind as well.
> Thanks for your opinion of me..:happydance:
> Ok wht you said in reference to vaccines is true, it is to lower the chance of infection. I guess the few ( if not more then we know)that are effected negatively are just collateral damage. The debate is on the efficacy and safety. The safety has certainly not been proven yet and the efficacy is still up for debate.Click to expand...
> 
> So if we were to let these diseases run their course, and eventually kill themselves off, many many people would die in the process. Those people are then just "collateral damage" then, too.
> 
> The point is to make every attempt to make sure as few people as possible lose their lives to dangerous diseases that can be prevented.
> 
> Unfortunately it is not a guarantee, and yes, occasionally vaccines affect people negatively. But I fail to see how letting a disease just die down on its own is the preferred alternative. Surely you're aware of how catastrophic some infectious diseases can be?Click to expand...

I don't believe many people would die from the chicken pox, whopping cough or pertussis, measles etc...maybe a better tactic would be to boost immunity naturally. What about breastfeeding? Eating healthy? Cleanliness? 
What about testing someone's antibody count..surely if your antibodies are high enough you can fight these diseases on your own. But the problem is we are bombarded with toxins from every direction. 
Our health system IMO has taken the wrong path..vaccines are not the grand solution some mat be inclined for you to believe. I wish they were safe and effective, so that I may feel like I have that magic dose of immunity. Believe me, vaccinating my child would then be a lot easier the breastfeeding.


----------



## StaceyKor

patch2006uk said:


> Except that the choice of not vaccinating exposes those most vulnerable to the diseases. Your child may not die if they contract measles, but mrs Hudson over the road with a heart condition, who's not healthy enough to even withstand the inactive vaccine version of measles, might die because your LO was sick and gave it to her. The choice to vaccinate puts one person at risk of vaccine injury. One person not vaccinating potentially affects many more people.

Completely agree. My brother is heavily immunosuppressed... Most infections that I could fight off easily would be very serious if he contracted them. Even though he had every childhood vaccine, receives regular pneumococcal and flu vaccines there is no guarantee of his own body producing effective antibodies. I'd rather know myself and my baby were vaccinated as it in turn reduces the risks slightly for my brother x


----------



## patch2006uk

I'd also be interested to know how many people just don't want to put their LO through a vaccine, and so look to find any research to scare themselves out of vaccinating so their don't have to do it. Not aiming this at anyone partic, but more generally. No-one likes to see LO in pain and then deal with the potential week of temperatures and general 'off' behaviour afterwards. I'd be interested to know how many don't vaccinate based on research and how many are just based on 'but I don't want to' syndrome. Not sure how you could ever measure that, though.


----------



## patch2006uk

Are we now saying that whooping cough isn't a killer?


----------



## JleStar

StaceyKor said:


> Completely agree with patch... I would rather know I had done everything in my power to prevent my child from getting ill and potential ldelong side effects. There has been no proven link that (going back to the original point) MMR causes autism, infact this has been ruled out by health authorities and research organisations all over the world (as can be seen from the numerous links the ladies on here have previously provided). However, as some people still choose to question these facts (and I dont mean the mums posting on thos thread... I mean companies who work off of fictitious information) it seems unlikely that we will resolve this issue anytime soon. Clearly we all have seperate views on the subject. Some, like myself, are very much pro-vaccine, whilst others will be anti-vaccine...maybe because of things they have heard/read or indeed experienced if their child had a negative reaction to any vaccine - not just MMR. As others have said, most drugs are not 100% safe, but for the majority of people achieve exactly what the pharmaceutical company produced them for x

Hi staceykor, 
Thanks for your response. Just wanted to point out once again that autism has NOT been ruled out as an adverse effect. Just look at the latest report from the IOM. I posted a link much earlier in the debate about that very important report that no one has commented on. Very curious as to why. I will post it again since it may have become swallowed in all the posts


----------



## StaceyKor

JleStar said:


> staralfur said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JleStar said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> patch2006uk said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JleStar said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jaylynne said:
> 
> 
> Pretty sure calling someone a bitch is pot calling the kettle black and worse than delusional. You have to ignore a LARGE quantity of information to state that there is no proven effectiveness of vaccines. You state that younger neither pro nor against vaccines. I call bullshit. How could you possibly be on the fence if you see no effectiveness of a vaccine.
> 
> Because I have seen first hand people becoming Ill from the same vaccine that claims immunity.
> Break outs happen in areas where there is a high population of vaccinated
> Herd immunity is flawed.
> 
> The bitch comment is between me and the bitch respectfully.
> 
> This is like an epic battle of the likes of David and Goliath. Goliath being big pharma with their wonderful sources and smeared campaigns against the smaller....it's ok though, I am still waiting for proof that vaccines are safe and effective..do that I may one day vaccinate. Right now, it looks pretty bleakClick to expand...
> 
> Well aren't you a delight?
> 
> Vaccines aren't 100% effective, same as not all drugs, operations or anything else. Until diseases are eradicated, there will be breakouts. The point of a vaccine is to lower the chance of infection, or seriousness of the infection in event of contracting it.
> 
> I only hope the mods don't close this thread based on your attitude alone, because everyone else seems capable of talking to each other like grown up human beings. It would be a shame for your comments to end a polite debate.Click to expand...
> 
> Thank you. Most who know me personably feel that I am a delight and very kind as well.
> Thanks for your opinion of me..:happydance:
> Ok wht you said in reference to vaccines is true, it is to lower the chance of infection. I guess the few ( if not more then we know)that are effected negatively are just collateral damage. The debate is on the efficacy and safety. The safety has certainly not been proven yet and the efficacy is still up for debate.Click to expand...
> 
> So if we were to let these diseases run their course, and eventually kill themselves off, many many people would die in the process. Those people are then just "collateral damage" then, too.
> 
> The point is to make every attempt to make sure as few people as possible lose their lives to dangerous diseases that can be prevented.
> 
> Unfortunately it is not a guarantee, and yes, occasionally vaccines affect people negatively. But I fail to see how letting a disease just die down on its own is the preferred alternative. Surely you're aware of how catastrophic some infectious diseases can be?Click to expand...
> 
> I don't believe many people would die from the chicken pox, whopping cough or pertussis, measles etc...maybe a better tactic would be to boost immunity naturally. What about breastfeeding? Eating healthy? Cleanliness?
> What about testing someone's antibody count..surely if your antibodies are high enough you can fight these diseases on your own. But the problem is we are bombarded with toxins from every direction.
> Our health system IMO has taken the wrong path..vaccines are not the grand solution some mat be inclined for you to believe. I wish they were safe and effective, so that I may feel like I have that magic dose of immunity. Believe me, vaccinating my child would then be a lot easier the breastfeeding.Click to expand...

I'm sorry, but vaccines are not just to prevent people dying. While you may be correct that these illnesses do not come with high mortality rates they can have serious long term health effects....effects that can pretty much ruin the individuals life!! Yes, natural immunity is undoubtedly better than the result of a vaccine, but at the end of the day if we just forgot about vaccines and let people naturally acquire these infections it would end up with a lot of devastation.x


----------



## Jaylynne

JleStar said:


> staralfur said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JleStar said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> patch2006uk said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JleStar said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jaylynne said:
> 
> 
> Pretty sure calling someone a bitch is pot calling the kettle black and worse than delusional. You have to ignore a LARGE quantity of information to state that there is no proven effectiveness of vaccines. You state that younger neither pro nor against vaccines. I call bullshit. How could you possibly be on the fence if you see no effectiveness of a vaccine.
> 
> Because I have seen first hand people becoming Ill from the same vaccine that claims immunity.
> Break outs happen in areas where there is a high population of vaccinated
> Herd immunity is flawed.
> 
> The bitch comment is between me and the bitch respectfully.
> 
> This is like an epic battle of the likes of David and Goliath. Goliath being big pharma with their wonderful sources and smeared campaigns against the smaller....it's ok though, I am still waiting for proof that vaccines are safe and effective..do that I may one day vaccinate. Right now, it looks pretty bleakClick to expand...
> 
> Well aren't you a delight?
> 
> Vaccines aren't 100% effective, same as not all drugs, operations or anything else. Until diseases are eradicated, there will be breakouts. The point of a vaccine is to lower the chance of infection, or seriousness of the infection in event of contracting it.
> 
> I only hope the mods don't close this thread based on your attitude alone, because everyone else seems capable of talking to each other like grown up human beings. It would be a shame for your comments to end a polite debate.Click to expand...
> 
> Thank you. Most who know me personably feel that I am a delight and very kind as well.
> Thanks for your opinion of me..:happydance:
> Ok wht you said in reference to vaccines is true, it is to lower the chance of infection. I guess the few ( if not more then we know)that are effected negatively are just collateral damage. The debate is on the efficacy and safety. The safety has certainly not been proven yet and the efficacy is still up for debate.Click to expand...
> 
> So if we were to let these diseases run their course, and eventually kill themselves off, many many people would die in the process. Those people are then just "collateral damage" then, too.
> 
> The point is to make every attempt to make sure as few people as possible lose their lives to dangerous diseases that can be prevented.
> 
> Unfortunately it is not a guarantee, and yes, occasionally vaccines affect people negatively. But I fail to see how letting a disease just die down on its own is the preferred alternative. Surely you're aware of how catastrophic some infectious diseases can be?Click to expand...
> 
> I don't believe many people would die from the chicken pox, whopping cough or pertussis, measles etc...maybe a better tactic would be to boost immunity naturally. What about breastfeeding? Eating healthy? Cleanliness?
> What about testing someone's antibody count..surely if your antibodies are high enough you can fight these diseases on your own. But the problem is we are bombarded with toxins from every direction.
> Our health system IMO has taken the wrong path..vaccines are not the grand solution some mat be inclined for you to believe. I wish they were safe and effective, so that I may feel like I have that magic dose of immunity. Believe me, vaccinating my child would then be a lot easier the breastfeeding.Click to expand...

Pertussis doesn't cause many deaths?!?
From WHO

In 2008, about 82% of all infants worldwide received 3 doses of pertussis vaccine. WHO estimates that, in 2008, global vaccination against pertussis averted about 687 000 deaths.


This is getting insane. I breastfeed. I don't believe my son can fight off every mutated illness with natural ability. Would you not give antidotes, antibiotics or other medicines either?!

Can't make someone see the light in front of their face if they refuse to see.


----------



## JleStar

Bella_Bee said:


> Jaylynne said:
> 
> 
> Personally, i think if someone has been in the field for this for a large amount of time they can rattle off their sources. Maybe not a specific web address, but certainly name the source. Seems rather sketchy. I can cite sources after only a few hours research.
> 
> And no, I wouldn't consider the AAPS a credible source. They've been denied access to any respectable medical journal.
> 
> I would love to see research from a credible organization.
> 
> I'm not sure how it's sketchy? I've been very specific with my facts and figures, for one. When somebody asked about sources I'd already made quite a lot of points. I have already mentioned needing to include graphs - I didn't see the point in stating a few references on their own when I could help to demonstrate with graphs.
> 
> Like I keep saying, I'll be back. Meanwhile I don't really appreciate the constant suggestions that I'm basically full of shit. Have a bit more respect, eh?Click to expand...

Hey Hun, just so you know I am in your corner. I have been alone in here for a while on the not so popular side. I hope you come back soon to share some good info. Thanks a bunch


----------



## Jaylynne

Everyone in the black plague was breastfed and didn't have junk food. You bet your butt I'm glad to live in a time where medicine is advanced.


----------



## StaceyKor

Jaylynne said:


> JleStar said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> staralfur said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JleStar said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> patch2006uk said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JleStar said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jaylynne said:
> 
> 
> Pretty sure calling someone a bitch is pot calling the kettle black and worse than delusional. You have to ignore a LARGE quantity of information to state that there is no proven effectiveness of vaccines. You state that younger neither pro nor against vaccines. I call bullshit. How could you possibly be on the fence if you see no effectiveness of a vaccine.
> 
> Because I have seen first hand people becoming Ill from the same vaccine that claims immunity.
> Break outs happen in areas where there is a high population of vaccinated
> Herd immunity is flawed.
> 
> The bitch comment is between me and the bitch respectfully.
> 
> This is like an epic battle of the likes of David and Goliath. Goliath being big pharma with their wonderful sources and smeared campaigns against the smaller....it's ok though, I am still waiting for proof that vaccines are safe and effective..do that I may one day vaccinate. Right now, it looks pretty bleakClick to expand...
> 
> Well aren't you a delight?
> 
> Vaccines aren't 100% effective, same as not all drugs, operations or anything else. Until diseases are eradicated, there will be breakouts. The point of a vaccine is to lower the chance of infection, or seriousness of the infection in event of contracting it.
> 
> I only hope the mods don't close this thread based on your attitude alone, because everyone else seems capable of talking to each other like grown up human beings. It would be a shame for your comments to end a polite debate.Click to expand...
> 
> Thank you. Most who know me personably feel that I am a delight and very kind as well.
> Thanks for your opinion of me..:happydance:
> Ok wht you said in reference to vaccines is true, it is to lower the chance of infection. I guess the few ( if not more then we know)that are effected negatively are just collateral damage. The debate is on the efficacy and safety. The safety has certainly not been proven yet and the efficacy is still up for debate.Click to expand...
> 
> So if we were to let these diseases run their course, and eventually kill themselves off, many many people would die in the process. Those people are then just "collateral damage" then, too.
> 
> The point is to make every attempt to make sure as few people as possible lose their lives to dangerous diseases that can be prevented.
> 
> Unfortunately it is not a guarantee, and yes, occasionally vaccines affect people negatively. But I fail to see how letting a disease just die down on its own is the preferred alternative. Surely you're aware of how catastrophic some infectious diseases can be?Click to expand...
> 
> I don't believe many people would die from the chicken pox, whopping cough or pertussis, measles etc...maybe a better tactic would be to boost immunity naturally. What about breastfeeding? Eating healthy? Cleanliness?
> What about testing someone's antibody count..surely if your antibodies are high enough you can fight these diseases on your own. But the problem is we are bombarded with toxins from every direction.
> Our health system IMO has taken the wrong path..vaccines are not the grand solution some mat be inclined for you to believe. I wish they were safe and effective, so that I may feel like I have that magic dose of immunity. Believe me, vaccinating my child would then be a lot easier the breastfeeding.Click to expand...
> 
> Pertussis doesn't cause many deaths?!?
> From WHO
> 
> In 2008, about 82% of all infants worldwide received 3 doses of pertussis vaccine. WHO estimates that, in 2008, global vaccination against pertussis averted about 687 000 deaths.
> 
> 
> This is getting insane. I breastfeed. I don't believe my son can fight off every mutated illness with natural ability. Would you not give antidotes, antibiotics or other medicines either?!
> 
> Can't make someone see the light in front of their face if they refuse to see.Click to expand...

This is what I keep wondering. Do the people who are so opposed to vaccination feel the same about drugs in general? If not, what exactly is the difference?x


----------



## Jaylynne

So you admit you're not nonpartisan now jlestar.


----------



## patch2006uk

JleStar said:


> StaceyKor said:
> 
> 
> Completely agree with patch... I would rather know I had done everything in my power to prevent my child from getting ill and potential ldelong side effects. There has been no proven link that (going back to the original point) MMR causes autism, infact this has been ruled out by health authorities and research organisations all over the world (as can be seen from the numerous links the ladies on here have previously provided). However, as some people still choose to question these facts (and I dont mean the mums posting on thos thread... I mean companies who work off of fictitious information) it seems unlikely that we will resolve this issue anytime soon. Clearly we all have seperate views on the subject. Some, like myself, are very much pro-vaccine, whilst others will be anti-vaccine...maybe because of things they have heard/read or indeed experienced if their child had a negative reaction to any vaccine - not just MMR. As others have said, most drugs are not 100% safe, but for the majority of people achieve exactly what the pharmaceutical company produced them for x
> 
> Hi staceykor,
> Thanks for your response. Just wanted to point out once again that autism has NOT been ruled out as an adverse effect. Just look at the latest report from the IOM. I posted a link much earlier in the debate about that very important report that no one has commented on. Very curious as to why. I will post it again since it may have become swallowed in all the postsClick to expand...

Turning green hasn't been proven not to be a potential side effect of taking vitamin c supplements, but as there's no compelling evidence that it happens, I think the burden of proof is on those saying it does happen. 

The autism rate hasn't risen in line with vaccine uptake. Countries where they don't have the same vaccine schedules have seen comparable increases in autism rates (someone mentioned Japan getting the separate vaccines and still having a similar rate). I believe that autism is a condition you're born with, not one that a vaccine can cause. Trigger in those already vulnerable, perhaps. But not re-wire someone's brain.


----------



## NickyKB

Testing antibody levels? Surely that is the point of vaccination - without exposure to the disease either through catching the condition or through vaccination we don't have antibodies to it as our bodies won't have learnt how to make it. The antibodies from breastfeeding are passive ie you have them whilst you are drinking breastmilk but they do not give your body the ability to make them. You are only covered if your mother has the antibody whilst you are breastfeeding and for a short period afterwards. If mum isn't immune she can't pass on the antibody anyway...

Oops pressed reply not reply with quote: Really don't want to get lynched but replying to a previous comment that instead of vaccinating, antibody levels should be tested and then a decision made about if it's needed


----------



## StaceyKor

patch2006uk said:


> JleStar said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StaceyKor said:
> 
> 
> Completely agree with patch... I would rather know I had done everything in my power to prevent my child from getting ill and potential ldelong side effects. There has been no proven link that (going back to the original point) MMR causes autism, infact this has been ruled out by health authorities and research organisations all over the world (as can be seen from the numerous links the ladies on here have previously provided). However, as some people still choose to question these facts (and I dont mean the mums posting on thos thread... I mean companies who work off of fictitious information) it seems unlikely that we will resolve this issue anytime soon. Clearly we all have seperate views on the subject. Some, like myself, are very much pro-vaccine, whilst others will be anti-vaccine...maybe because of things they have heard/read or indeed experienced if their child had a negative reaction to any vaccine - not just MMR. As others have said, most drugs are not 100% safe, but for the majority of people achieve exactly what the pharmaceutical company produced them for x
> 
> Hi staceykor,
> Thanks for your response. Just wanted to point out once again that autism has NOT been ruled out as an adverse effect. Just look at the latest report from the IOM. I posted a link much earlier in the debate about that very important report that no one has commented on. Very curious as to why. I will post it again since it may have become swallowed in all the postsClick to expand...
> 
> Turning green hasn't been proven not to be a potential side effect of taking vitamin c supplements, but as there's no compelling evidence that it happens, I think the burden of proof is on those saying it does happen.
> 
> The autism rate hasn't risen in line with vaccine uptake. Countries where they don't have the same vaccine schedules have seen comparable increases in autism rates (someone mentioned Japan getting the separate vaccines and still having a similar rate). I believe that autism is a condition you're born with, not one that a vaccine can cause. Trigger in those already vulnerable, perhaps. But not re-wire someone's brain.Click to expand...

Yep...and as we stated right back at the start of this thread, there is a direct correlation between when the vaccine is administered (around 13 months) and natural onset of autism symptoms. Hence, why there appears to be a link in some children x


----------



## veganmama

^^ i do feel the same about drugs there is no difference at all

although there are times when drugs are actually necessary but they are never my first choice they are just an ultimate last resort when all else fails


----------



## My_First

JleStar said:


> StaceyKor said:
> 
> 
> Completely agree with patch... I would rather know I had done everything in my power to prevent my child from getting ill and potential ldelong side effects. There has been no proven link that (going back to the original point) MMR causes autism, infact this has been ruled out by health authorities and research organisations all over the world (as can be seen from the numerous links the ladies on here have previously provided). However, as some people still choose to question these facts (and I dont mean the mums posting on thos thread... I mean companies who work off of fictitious information) it seems unlikely that we will resolve this issue anytime soon. Clearly we all have seperate views on the subject. Some, like myself, are very much pro-vaccine, whilst others will be anti-vaccine...maybe because of things they have heard/read or indeed experienced if their child had a negative reaction to any vaccine - not just MMR. As others have said, most drugs are not 100% safe, but for the majority of people achieve exactly what the pharmaceutical company produced them for x
> 
> Hi staceykor,
> Thanks for your response. Just wanted to point out once again that autism has NOT been ruled out as an adverse effect. Just look at the latest report from the IOM. I posted a link much earlier in the debate about that very important report that no one has commented on. Very curious as to why. I will post it again since it may have become swallowed in all the postsClick to expand...

Could you post that link again, because the finding I see says it is rejected?


----------



## Jaylynne

Does anyone know if they're doing genetic testing to help spot those who might be predisposed to adverse reactions with immunizations?


----------



## StaceyKor

NickyKB said:


> Testing antibody levels? Surely that is the point of vaccination - without exposure to the disease either through catching the condition or through vaccination we don't have antibodies to it as our bodies won't have learnt how to make it. The antibodies from breastfeeding are passive ie you have them whilst you are drinking breastmilk but they do not give your body the ability to make them. You are only covered if your mother has the antibody whilst you are breastfeeding and for a short period afterwards. If mum isn't immune she can't pass on the antibody anyway...
> 
> Oops pressed reply not reply with quote: Really don't want to get lynched but replying to a previous comment that instead of vaccinating, antibody levels should be tested and then a decision made about if it's needed

Exactly...:thumbup:


----------



## JleStar

Jaylynne said:


> JleStar said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> staralfur said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JleStar said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> patch2006uk said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JleStar said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jaylynne said:
> 
> 
> Pretty sure calling someone a bitch is pot calling the kettle black and worse than delusional. You have to ignore a LARGE quantity of information to state that there is no proven effectiveness of vaccines. You state that younger neither pro nor against vaccines. I call bullshit. How could you possibly be on the fence if you see no effectiveness of a vaccine.
> 
> Because I have seen first hand people becoming Ill from the same vaccine that claims immunity.
> Break outs happen in areas where there is a high population of vaccinated
> Herd immunity is flawed.
> 
> The bitch comment is between me and the bitch respectfully.
> 
> This is like an epic battle of the likes of David and Goliath. Goliath being big pharma with their wonderful sources and smeared campaigns against the smaller....it's ok though, I am still waiting for proof that vaccines are safe and effective..do that I may one day vaccinate. Right now, it looks pretty bleakClick to expand...
> 
> Well aren't you a delight?
> 
> Vaccines aren't 100% effective, same as not all drugs, operations or anything else. Until diseases are eradicated, there will be breakouts. The point of a vaccine is to lower the chance of infection, or seriousness of the infection in event of contracting it.
> 
> I only hope the mods don't close this thread based on your attitude alone, because everyone else seems capable of talking to each other like grown up human beings. It would be a shame for your comments to end a polite debate.Click to expand...
> 
> Thank you. Most who know me personably feel that I am a delight and very kind as well.
> Thanks for your opinion of me..:happydance:
> Ok wht you said in reference to vaccines is true, it is to lower the chance of infection. I guess the few ( if not more then we know)that are effected negatively are just collateral damage. The debate is on the efficacy and safety. The safety has certainly not been proven yet and the efficacy is still up for debate.Click to expand...
> 
> So if we were to let these diseases run their course, and eventually kill themselves off, many many people would die in the process. Those people are then just "collateral damage" then, too.
> 
> The point is to make every attempt to make sure as few people as possible lose their lives to dangerous diseases that can be prevented.
> 
> Unfortunately it is not a guarantee, and yes, occasionally vaccines affect people negatively. But I fail to see how letting a disease just die down on its own is the preferred alternative. Surely you're aware of how catastrophic some infectious diseases can be?Click to expand...
> 
> I don't believe many people would die from the chicken pox, whopping cough or pertussis, measles etc...maybe a better tactic would be to boost immunity naturally. What about breastfeeding? Eating healthy? Cleanliness?
> What about testing someone's antibody count..surely if your antibodies are high enough you can fight these diseases on your own. But the problem is we are bombarded with toxins from every direction.
> Our health system IMO has taken the wrong path..vaccines are not the grand solution some mat be inclined for you to believe. I wish they were safe and effective, so that I may feel like I have that magic dose of immunity. Believe me, vaccinating my child would then be a lot easier the breastfeeding.Click to expand...
> 
> Pertussis doesn't cause many deaths?!?
> From WHO
> 
> In 2008, about 82% of all infants worldwide received 3 doses of pertussis vaccine. WHO estimates that, in 2008, global vaccination against pertussis averted about 687 000 deaths.
> 
> 
> This is getting insane. I breastfeed. I don't believe my son can fight off every mutated illness with natural ability. Would you not give antidotes, antibiotics or other medicines either?!
> 
> Can't make someone see the light in front of their face if they refuse to see.Click to expand...

WHO estimates, not knows as fact. My point in the previous post was to imply that there may be a better way to handle/control infectious diseases. Do you realize the the vaccines themselves are causing crazy mutations. The viruses are fighting harder to stay alive. 

Did you watch the video yet i posted? Jus wondering because she makes a valid point that the reason we see more shingles outbreaks today is because of the chickenpox vaccine. I had chicken pox as a kid and if my child gets it, it will be a natural booster for me against shingles. But now everyone is getting vaccinated against chickenpox, so that great natural booster mother nature made for us has become eradicated because of chicken pox Vaccine. Merck manufactured the chicken pox vaccine and now is making a killing for the shingles one too. Create a problem...and give us a solution.


----------



## JleStar

Jaylynne said:


> Does anyone know if they're doing genetic testing to help spot those who might be predisposed to adverse reactions with immunizations?

I wish they would


----------



## JleStar

My_First said:


> JleStar said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StaceyKor said:
> 
> 
> Completely agree with patch... I would rather know I had done everything in my power to prevent my child from getting ill and potential ldelong side effects. There has been no proven link that (going back to the original point) MMR causes autism, infact this has been ruled out by health authorities and research organisations all over the world (as can be seen from the numerous links the ladies on here have previously provided). However, as some people still choose to question these facts (and I dont mean the mums posting on thos thread... I mean companies who work off of fictitious information) it seems unlikely that we will resolve this issue anytime soon. Clearly we all have seperate views on the subject. Some, like myself, are very much pro-vaccine, whilst others will be anti-vaccine...maybe because of things they have heard/read or indeed experienced if their child had a negative reaction to any vaccine - not just MMR. As others have said, most drugs are not 100% safe, but for the majority of people achieve exactly what the pharmaceutical company produced them for x
> 
> Hi staceykor,
> Thanks for your response. Just wanted to point out once again that autism has NOT been ruled out as an adverse effect. Just look at the latest report from the IOM. I posted a link much earlier in the debate about that very important report that no one has commented on. Very curious as to why. I will post it again since it may have become swallowed in all the postsClick to expand...
> 
> Could you post that link again, because the finding I see says it is rejected?Click to expand...

Ok Hun, 
I will ASAP.


----------



## patch2006uk

JleStar said:


> Bella_Bee said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jaylynne said:
> 
> 
> Personally, i think if someone has been in the field for this for a large amount of time they can rattle off their sources. Maybe not a specific web address, but certainly name the source. Seems rather sketchy. I can cite sources after only a few hours research.
> 
> And no, I wouldn't consider the AAPS a credible source. They've been denied access to any respectable medical journal.
> 
> I would love to see research from a credible organization.
> 
> I'm not sure how it's sketchy? I've been very specific with my facts and figures, for one. When somebody asked about sources I'd already made quite a lot of points. I have already mentioned needing to include graphs - I didn't see the point in stating a few references on their own when I could help to demonstrate with graphs.
> 
> Like I keep saying, I'll be back. Meanwhile I don't really appreciate the constant suggestions that I'm basically full of shit. Have a bit more respect, eh?Click to expand...
> 
> Hey Hun, just so you know I am in your corner. I have been alone in here for a while on the not so popular side. I hope you come back soon to share some good info. Thanks a bunchClick to expand...

It's nothing to do with 'sides' or popularity. If it turns out in 30 years that vaccination is unnecessary, then i'll happily hold up my hands and say I was wrong. But I've made the decision based on the best evidence I had at the time. If people have info to share, then I'd like to read it. 

I've studied enough history (and specifically history of medicine) to be able to see how medical advances mean that I don't need to have 8 children in order for 1 to survive. I don't need to carry herbs in my pocket in the hope of keeping away miasma. I will probably live into old age and not be taken down in my mid thirties. This is all thanks to modern medicine, and, yes, vaccination programs. If I'm going to decide not to use the technology and medicine that's available, the evidence against doing so has to be compelling. And so far, I don't think it is.


----------



## Jaylynne

CDC website 14 pertussis deaths in US past year

Provisional counts from our surveillance system indicate that nearly 29,000 cases of pertussis were reported to CDC through September 20, 2012. 14 pertussis-related deaths have been reported during that same time period. The majority of deaths continue to occur among infants younger than 3 months of age. The incidence rate of pertussis among infants exceeds that of all other age groups. The second highest rates of disease are observed among children 7 through 10 years old. Rates are also increased in adolescents 13 and 14 years of age.


----------



## patch2006uk

JleStar said:


> Jaylynne said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JleStar said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> staralfur said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JleStar said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> patch2006uk said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JleStar said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jaylynne said:
> 
> 
> Pretty sure calling someone a bitch is pot calling the kettle black and worse than delusional. You have to ignore a LARGE quantity of information to state that there is no proven effectiveness of vaccines. You state that younger neither pro nor against vaccines. I call bullshit. How could you possibly be on the fence if you see no effectiveness of a vaccine.
> 
> Because I have seen first hand people becoming Ill from the same vaccine that claims immunity.
> Break outs happen in areas where there is a high population of vaccinated
> Herd immunity is flawed.
> 
> The bitch comment is between me and the bitch respectfully.
> 
> This is like an epic battle of the likes of David and Goliath. Goliath being big pharma with their wonderful sources and smeared campaigns against the smaller....it's ok though, I am still waiting for proof that vaccines are safe and effective..do that I may one day vaccinate. Right now, it looks pretty bleakClick to expand...
> 
> Well aren't you a delight?
> 
> Vaccines aren't 100% effective, same as not all drugs, operations or anything else. Until diseases are eradicated, there will be breakouts. The point of a vaccine is to lower the chance of infection, or seriousness of the infection in event of contracting it.
> 
> I only hope the mods don't close this thread based on your attitude alone, because everyone else seems capable of talking to each other like grown up human beings. It would be a shame for your comments to end a polite debate.Click to expand...
> 
> Thank you. Most who know me personably feel that I am a delight and very kind as well.
> Thanks for your opinion of me..:happydance:
> Ok wht you said in reference to vaccines is true, it is to lower the chance of infection. I guess the few ( if not more then we know)that are effected negatively are just collateral damage. The debate is on the efficacy and safety. The safety has certainly not been proven yet and the efficacy is still up for debate.Click to expand...
> 
> So if we were to let these diseases run their course, and eventually kill themselves off, many many people would die in the process. Those people are then just "collateral damage" then, too.
> 
> The point is to make every attempt to make sure as few people as possible lose their lives to dangerous diseases that can be prevented.
> 
> Unfortunately it is not a guarantee, and yes, occasionally vaccines affect people negatively. But I fail to see how letting a disease just die down on its own is the preferred alternative. Surely you're aware of how catastrophic some infectious diseases can be?Click to expand...
> 
> I don't believe many people would die from the chicken pox, whopping cough or pertussis, measles etc...maybe a better tactic would be to boost immunity naturally. What about breastfeeding? Eating healthy? Cleanliness?
> What about testing someone's antibody count..surely if your antibodies are high enough you can fight these diseases on your own. But the problem is we are bombarded with toxins from every direction.
> Our health system IMO has taken the wrong path..vaccines are not the grand solution some mat be inclined for you to believe. I wish they were safe and effective, so that I may feel like I have that magic dose of immunity. Believe me, vaccinating my child would then be a lot easier the breastfeeding.Click to expand...
> 
> Pertussis doesn't cause many deaths?!?
> From WHO
> 
> In 2008, about 82% of all infants worldwide received 3 doses of pertussis vaccine. WHO estimates that, in 2008, global vaccination against pertussis averted about 687 000 deaths.
> 
> 
> This is getting insane. I breastfeed. I don't believe my son can fight off every mutated illness with natural ability. Would you not give antidotes, antibiotics or other medicines either?!
> 
> Can't make someone see the light in front of their face if they refuse to see.Click to expand...
> 
> WHO estimates, not knows as fact. My point in the previous post was to imply that there may be a better way to handle/control infectious diseases. Do you realize the the vaccines themselves are causing crazy mutations. The viruses are fighting harder to stay alive.
> 
> Did you watch the video yet i posted? Jus wondering because she makes a valid point that the reason we see more shingles outbreaks today is because of the chickenpox vaccine. I had chicken pox as a kid and if my child gets it, it will be a natural booster for me against shingles. But now everyone is getting vaccinated against chickenpox, so that great natural booster mother nature made for us has become eradicated because of chicken pox Vaccine. Merck manufactured the chicken pox vaccine and now is making a killing for the shingles one too. Create a problem...and give us a solution.Click to expand...

You know we don't vaccinate in the UK against chicken pox?

ETA-your kid getting chicken pox could well give you chicken pox again. The NHS reckons 18% of people get it more than once.


----------



## Bella_Bee

OK, I'm here now! Stick with me, I'm still not 100%

Just to say, though, Jaylynne in the times of the plague people were living in squalor and nutrition was incredibly poor.


----------



## Jaylynne

I've had chicken pox as a kid. No big deal. Never got the vaccine. Dont plan on LO getting it. I hear shingles are a b!tch though.


----------



## Jaylynne

Bella_Bee said:


> OK, I'm here now! Stick with me, I'm still not 100%
> 
> Just to say, though, Jaylynne in the times of the plague people were living in squalor and nutrition was incredibly poor.

Sort of like the 3rd world countries non profits are trying to immunize...


----------



## JleStar

patch2006uk said:


> JleStar said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jaylynne said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JleStar said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> staralfur said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JleStar said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> patch2006uk said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JleStar said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jaylynne said:
> 
> 
> Pretty sure calling someone a bitch is pot calling the kettle black and worse than delusional. You have to ignore a LARGE quantity of information to state that there is no proven effectiveness of vaccines. You state that younger neither pro nor against vaccines. I call bullshit. How could you possibly be on the fence if you see no effectiveness of a vaccine.
> 
> Because I have seen first hand people becoming Ill from the same vaccine that claims immunity.
> Break outs happen in areas where there is a high population of vaccinated
> Herd immunity is flawed.
> 
> The bitch comment is between me and the bitch respectfully.
> 
> This is like an epic battle of the likes of David and Goliath. Goliath being big pharma with their wonderful sources and smeared campaigns against the smaller....it's ok though, I am still waiting for proof that vaccines are safe and effective..do that I may one day vaccinate. Right now, it looks pretty bleakClick to expand...
> 
> Well aren't you a delight?
> 
> Vaccines aren't 100% effective, same as not all drugs, operations or anything else. Until diseases are eradicated, there will be breakouts. The point of a vaccine is to lower the chance of infection, or seriousness of the infection in event of contracting it.
> 
> I only hope the mods don't close this thread based on your attitude alone, because everyone else seems capable of talking to each other like grown up human beings. It would be a shame for your comments to end a polite debate.Click to expand...
> 
> Thank you. Most who know me personably feel that I am a delight and very kind as well.
> Thanks for your opinion of me..:happydance:
> Ok wht you said in reference to vaccines is true, it is to lower the chance of infection. I guess the few ( if not more then we know)that are effected negatively are just collateral damage. The debate is on the efficacy and safety. The safety has certainly not been proven yet and the efficacy is still up for debate.Click to expand...
> 
> So if we were to let these diseases run their course, and eventually kill themselves off, many many people would die in the process. Those people are then just "collateral damage" then, too.
> 
> The point is to make every attempt to make sure as few people as possible lose their lives to dangerous diseases that can be prevented.
> 
> Unfortunately it is not a guarantee, and yes, occasionally vaccines affect people negatively. But I fail to see how letting a disease just die down on its own is the preferred alternative. Surely you're aware of how catastrophic some infectious diseases can be?Click to expand...
> 
> I don't believe many people would die from the chicken pox, whopping cough or pertussis, measles etc...maybe a better tactic would be to boost immunity naturally. What about breastfeeding? Eating healthy? Cleanliness?
> What about testing someone's antibody count..surely if your antibodies are high enough you can fight these diseases on your own. But the problem is we are bombarded with toxins from every direction.
> Our health system IMO has taken the wrong path..vaccines are not the grand solution some mat be inclined for you to believe. I wish they were safe and effective, so that I may feel like I have that magic dose of immunity. Believe me, vaccinating my child would then be a lot easier the breastfeeding.Click to expand...
> 
> Pertussis doesn't cause many deaths?!?
> From WHO
> 
> In 2008, about 82% of all infants worldwide received 3 doses of pertussis vaccine. WHO estimates that, in 2008, global vaccination against pertussis averted about 687 000 deaths.
> 
> 
> This is getting insane. I breastfeed. I don't believe my son can fight off every mutated illness with natural ability. Would you not give antidotes, antibiotics or other medicines either?!
> 
> Can't make someone see the light in front of their face if they refuse to see.Click to expand...
> 
> WHO estimates, not knows as fact. My point in the previous post was to imply that there may be a better way to handle/control infectious diseases. Do you realize the the vaccines themselves are causing crazy mutations. The viruses are fighting harder to stay alive.
> 
> Did you watch the video yet i posted? Jus wondering because she makes a valid point that the reason we see more shingles outbreaks today is because of the chickenpox vaccine. I had chicken pox as a kid and if my child gets it, it will be a natural booster for me against shingles. But now everyone is getting vaccinated against chickenpox, so that great natural booster mother nature made for us has become eradicated because of chicken pox Vaccine. Merck manufactured the chicken pox vaccine and now is making a killing for the shingles one too. Create a problem...and give us a solution.Click to expand...
> 
> You know we don't vaccinate in the UK against chicken pox?Click to expand...

Didn't know that


----------



## CMarie

Just wanted to share this link...it's 14 studies based on thimerosal and the mmr vaccine :) most of the studies are actually contained in a scientific journal as well made by MDs

https://www.fourteenstudies.org/studies.html

Also this link...the University of Pittsburgh did a study on monkeys who got the MMR vaccine and they ended up showing "autism-like reactions." Under References at the bottom of the article there's a link to the actual study that was posted in a scientific journal :)

https://vactruth.com/2012/04/29/monkeys-get-autism/


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## JleStar

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaylynne 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JleStar 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaylynne 
Personally, i think if someone has been in the field for this for a large amount of time they can rattle off their sources. Maybe not a specific web address, but certainly name the source. Seems rather sketchy. I can cite sources after only a few hours research. 

And no, I wouldn't consider the AAPS a credible source. They've been denied access to any respectable medical journal. 

I would love to see research from a credible organization.
Please cite your sources that proves the efficacy and safety of vaccinations.
Sure. I'll show you mine as I've had yet to see yours. 

CDC 
https://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/Con...iomreport.html

WHO
https://www.who.int/immunization_safe.../en/index.html

Time Magazine. Well researched article with personal antecedents if that's your thing
https://www.time.com/time/magazine/ar...808620,00.html

Children's Hospital of Philadelphia (chop). Best children's hospital in the area by far
https://www.chop.edu/service/vaccine-...accine-safety/

Webmd for those who like that sort of site 
https://children.webmd.com/vaccines/f...vaccine-safety

Institute of Medicine
https://www.iom.edu/Reports/2011/Adve...Causality.aspx

American Academy of Pediatrics
https://www.iom.edu/Reports/2011/Adve...Causality.aspx

New York health department 
https://www.iom.edu/Reports/2011/Adve...Causality.aspx

What to expect (the parental bible when pregnant and first years)
https://www.whattoexpect.com/child-va...-vaccines.aspx

Center for strategic and international studies
https://csis.org/files/publication/11...accine_WEB.pdf





Here is the video again..please take a look. There is also another one on herd immunity immediately after.

In this video Barbara Loe Fisher is being interviewd about the contents of the IOM research. She read the report. Take a look:
https://articles.mercola.com/sites/ar...e-dangers.aspx
hope it works!


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## Larkspur

JleStar said:


> Jus wondering because she makes a valid point that the reason we see more shingles outbreaks today is because of the chickenpox vaccine. I had chicken pox as a kid and if my child gets it, it will be a natural booster for me against shingles. But now everyone is getting vaccinated against chickenpox, so that great natural booster mother nature made for us has become eradicated because of chicken pox Vaccine. Merck manufactured the chicken pox vaccine and now is making a killing for the shingles one too. Create a problem...and give us a solution.

I'm trying to watch the video at the moment but haven't gotten to the point where she talks about this.

However, I can't understand how your claim that chickenpox gives immunity against shingles works. Don't you have to actually HAVE chickenpox before you can even get shingles? Shingles is a secondary form of the virus that causes chickenpox. If you have never had chickenpox, then you can't get shingles. You can't catch shingles from a person with shingles, you can only catch chickenpox.


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## JleStar

Sorry that post may be confusing. The video is at the bottom. The top was jaylenes original post.
Thanks
Let me know what you think after you see the video.


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## StaceyKor

Yeah we dont vaccinate against chicken pox here. Should a pregnant woman come into contact with chicken pox and she is unsure of her antibody status (whether she had chicken pox before) we will test her antibody levels using a blood sample. If she is not immune we administer VZIG (varicella immunoglobins). There has been some call for the vaccine to be rolled out in the UK but it has been deemed not to be cost effective. Which further proves to me that our government and health authorities must back all other vaccines currently in use. With the state of the economy at the moment, if theu seriously thought they were pointless or unsafe they would scrap them x


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## My_First

Thermosil has never been present in MMR

Sorry misread your post above! :flower:


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## JleStar

Wtf..sorry..why is my video removed. This is crazy. I will try to post it again. If I cannot..you can simply type in Barbara Loe fisher with mercola into YouTube..or on mercolas site..sorry don't know why it would disappear. Or maybe I do lol


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## tu123

StaceyKor said:


> Jaylynne said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JleStar said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> staralfur said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JleStar said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> patch2006uk said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JleStar said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jaylynne said:
> 
> 
> Pretty sure calling someone a bitch is pot calling the kettle black and worse than delusional. You have to ignore a LARGE quantity of information to state that there is no proven effectiveness of vaccines. You state that younger neither pro nor against vaccines. I call bullshit. How could you possibly be on the fence if you see no effectiveness of a vaccine.
> 
> Because I have seen first hand people becoming Ill from the same vaccine that claims immunity.
> Break outs happen in areas where there is a high population of vaccinated
> Herd immunity is flawed.
> 
> The bitch comment is between me and the bitch respectfully.
> 
> This is like an epic battle of the likes of David and Goliath. Goliath being big pharma with their wonderful sources and smeared campaigns against the smaller....it's ok though, I am still waiting for proof that vaccines are safe and effective..do that I may one day vaccinate. Right now, it looks pretty bleakClick to expand...
> 
> Well aren't you a delight?
> 
> Vaccines aren't 100% effective, same as not all drugs, operations or anything else. Until diseases are eradicated, there will be breakouts. The point of a vaccine is to lower the chance of infection, or seriousness of the infection in event of contracting it.
> 
> I only hope the mods don't close this thread based on your attitude alone, because everyone else seems capable of talking to each other like grown up human beings. It would be a shame for your comments to end a polite debate.Click to expand...
> 
> Thank you. Most who know me personably feel that I am a delight and very kind as well.
> Thanks for your opinion of me..:happydance:
> Ok wht you said in reference to vaccines is true, it is to lower the chance of infection. I guess the few ( if not more then we know)that are effected negatively are just collateral damage. The debate is on the efficacy and safety. The safety has certainly not been proven yet and the efficacy is still up for debate.Click to expand...
> 
> So if we were to let these diseases run their course, and eventually kill themselves off, many many people would die in the process. Those people are then just "collateral damage" then, too.
> 
> The point is to make every attempt to make sure as few people as possible lose their lives to dangerous diseases that can be prevented.
> 
> Unfortunately it is not a guarantee, and yes, occasionally vaccines affect people negatively. But I fail to see how letting a disease just die down on its own is the preferred alternative. Surely you're aware of how catastrophic some infectious diseases can be?Click to expand...
> 
> I don't believe many people would die from the chicken pox, whopping cough or pertussis, measles etc...maybe a better tactic would be to boost immunity naturally. What about breastfeeding? Eating healthy? Cleanliness?
> What about testing someone's antibody count..surely if your antibodies are high enough you can fight these diseases on your own. But the problem is we are bombarded with toxins from every direction.
> Our health system IMO has taken the wrong path..vaccines are not the grand solution some mat be inclined for you to believe. I wish they were safe and effective, so that I may feel like I have that magic dose of immunity. Believe me, vaccinating my child would then be a lot easier the breastfeeding.Click to expand...
> 
> Pertussis doesn't cause many deaths?!?
> From WHO
> 
> In 2008, about 82% of all infants worldwide received 3 doses of pertussis vaccine. WHO estimates that, in 2008, global vaccination against pertussis averted about 687 000 deaths.
> 
> 
> This is getting insane. I breastfeed. I don't believe my son can fight off every mutated illness with natural ability. Would you not give antidotes, antibiotics or other medicines either?!
> 
> Can't make someone see the light in front of their face if they refuse to see.Click to expand...
> 
> This is what I keep wondering. Do the people who are so opposed to vaccination feel the same about drugs in general? If not, what exactly is the difference?xClick to expand...

So true. My daughter had a reaction to the mmr. But one to be expected-rash and swollen glands. biologically that can be expected.

I rather that than the nasty drugs that would be necessary to treat her if she got ill. Do some research on those and some may think twice.


----------



## My_First

@ jlestr

I take it you missed this part of the study you posted re the IOM and the 'link' between MMR and autism.

https://www.iom.edu/~/media/Files/R...-Vaccines-Evidence-and-Causality/summary2.pdf

"MMR - Autism - Favors Rejection"


----------



## erikab922

If we're bandying about links then may I add my two cents worth:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/evolutionary-psychiatry/201104/autism-and-vitamin-d

The rise in autism also coincided with the massive uptake in sunscreen use/sun-avoidance amongst children. You can read the link and come to your own conclusions but this is the only explanation that makes any sense to me.

I'm totally pro-vax, FWIW. Now goes back to lurking...


----------



## CMarie

Interesting article :) Thanks for posting it!


----------



## Jaylynne

The link about monkeys showing signs of autism after vaccines has been tainted and the author dropped out after it was revealed she was in courts for a reaction with her child. It was considered conflict of interest. Still researching.


----------



## StaceyKor

Yeah that was an interesting article erika, thanks for posting it. Definately makes sense x


----------



## SjandPeanut

patch2006uk said:


> JleStar said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jaylynne said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JleStar said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> staralfur said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JleStar said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> patch2006uk said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JleStar said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jaylynne said:
> 
> 
> Pretty sure calling someone a bitch is pot calling the kettle black and worse than delusional. You have to ignore a LARGE quantity of information to state that there is no proven effectiveness of vaccines. You state that younger neither pro nor against vaccines. I call bullshit. How could you possibly be on the fence if you see no effectiveness of a vaccine.
> 
> Because I have seen first hand people becoming Ill from the same vaccine that claims immunity.
> Break outs happen in areas where there is a high population of vaccinated
> Herd immunity is flawed.
> 
> The bitch comment is between me and the bitch respectfully.
> 
> This is like an epic battle of the likes of David and Goliath. Goliath being big pharma with their wonderful sources and smeared campaigns against the smaller....it's ok though, I am still waiting for proof that vaccines are safe and effective..do that I may one day vaccinate. Right now, it looks pretty bleakClick to expand...
> 
> Well aren't you a delight?
> 
> Vaccines aren't 100% effective, same as not all drugs, operations or anything else. Until diseases are eradicated, there will be breakouts. The point of a vaccine is to lower the chance of infection, or seriousness of the infection in event of contracting it.
> 
> I only hope the mods don't close this thread based on your attitude alone, because everyone else seems capable of talking to each other like grown up human beings. It would be a shame for your comments to end a polite debate.Click to expand...
> 
> Thank you. Most who know me personably feel that I am a delight and very kind as well.
> Thanks for your opinion of me..:happydance:
> Ok wht you said in reference to vaccines is true, it is to lower the chance of infection. I guess the few ( if not more then we know)that are effected negatively are just collateral damage. The debate is on the efficacy and safety. The safety has certainly not been proven yet and the efficacy is still up for debate.Click to expand...
> 
> So if we were to let these diseases run their course, and eventually kill themselves off, many many people would die in the process. Those people are then just "collateral damage" then, too.
> 
> The point is to make every attempt to make sure as few people as possible lose their lives to dangerous diseases that can be prevented.
> 
> Unfortunately it is not a guarantee, and yes, occasionally vaccines affect people negatively. But I fail to see how letting a disease just die down on its own is the preferred alternative. Surely you're aware of how catastrophic some infectious diseases can be?Click to expand...
> 
> I don't believe many people would die from the chicken pox, whopping cough or pertussis, measles etc...maybe a better tactic would be to boost immunity naturally. What about breastfeeding? Eating healthy? Cleanliness?
> What about testing someone's antibody count..surely if your antibodies are high enough you can fight these diseases on your own. But the problem is we are bombarded with toxins from every direction.
> Our health system IMO has taken the wrong path..vaccines are not the grand solution some mat be inclined for you to believe. I wish they were safe and effective, so that I may feel like I have that magic dose of immunity. Believe me, vaccinating my child would then be a lot easier the breastfeeding.Click to expand...
> 
> Pertussis doesn't cause many deaths?!?
> From WHO
> 
> In 2008, about 82% of all infants worldwide received 3 doses of pertussis vaccine. WHO estimates that, in 2008, global vaccination against pertussis averted about 687 000 deaths.
> 
> 
> This is getting insane. I breastfeed. I don't believe my son can fight off every mutated illness with natural ability. Would you not give antidotes, antibiotics or other medicines either?!
> 
> Can't make someone see the light in front of their face if they refuse to see.Click to expand...
> 
> WHO estimates, not knows as fact. My point in the previous post was to imply that there may be a better way to handle/control infectious diseases.  Do you realize the the vaccines themselves are causing crazy mutations. The viruses are fighting harder to stay alive.
> 
> Did you watch the video yet i posted? Jus wondering because she makes a valid point that the reason we see more shingles outbreaks today is because of the chickenpox vaccine. I had chicken pox as a kid and if my child gets it, it will be a natural booster for me against shingles. But now everyone is getting vaccinated against chickenpox, so that great natural booster mother nature made for us has become eradicated because of chicken pox Vaccine. Merck manufactured the chicken pox vaccine and now is making a killing for the shingles one too. Create a problem...and give us a solution.Click to expand...
> 
> You know we don't vaccinate in the UK against chicken pox?
> 
> ETA-your kid getting chicken pox could well give you chicken pox again. The NHS reckons 18% of people get it more than once.Click to expand...

We don't vaccinate against it, but the shingles rate has also risen. 

Also, Ive had the chicken pox twice- once at 3 and once at 15. It was horrific at 15.


----------



## staralfur

Wow, yeah. Super interesting article, Erika! Thanks!


----------



## Pandora83

Sorry I haven't managed to read through all the pages as my eyes are getting heavy and my phone batteries about to die! But I plan to give my LO all the vaccines available. Can anyone tell me if there is benefit to spreading out the MMR & the boosters at 13 months as I can't help feeling 5 diseases in one is a lot for such a little body! I would also be glad for her to just get them out of the way but if there are benefits to spreading them out I would look into that.


----------



## Jaylynne

Ok on Acta Neurobiological Experimentals, the author is married to Dan Hollenbeck who is a fairly regular contributor to a website called "age of autism" - they believe that autism is man made and introduced primarily through vaccines. They both are litigants in the Autism Omnibus on behalf of their autistic son Josh (fed claim #03-1166V). It's a violation of INSAR to be in real or perceived undisclosed conflict of interest. She did not disclose. Therefore, her study was seen as tainted.


----------



## Jaylynne

Forgot to add that dr hewitson's husband worked for dr Wakefield. Dr Wakefield is the man who's 1998 lancet study that linked vaxs to autism was retracted as fraud and he lost his license to practice medicine in Britain.


----------



## highhopes19

I'm more confused now than when this whole thing started! 

I will be vaccinating Isabelle, as far as I'm concerned my child dying of one of them diseases or autism is pretty much a no brainer for me personally.


----------



## CMarie

Jaylynne said:


> Forgot to add that dr hewitson's husband worked for dr Wakefield. Dr Wakefield is the man who's 1998 lancet study that linked vaxs to autism was retracted as fraud and he lost his license to practice medicine in Britain.

I'm not going to argue about doctors being linked to other doctors, but to be fair, many doctors who are pro-vax also are linked to the pharma companies who push the vaccines...there were even some examples in the Fourteen Studies link I posted. There are links EVERYWHERE and how you interpret them is going to be different from how I interpret them.


----------



## Saphira

I'm considering delaying my daughter's MMR vaccine but can't seem to come to a conclusion on whether or not this is beneficial. She has an appointment at 11 1/2 months when she could potentially get vaccinated then but I've heard waiting until after 15 months has benefits. I'd be interested to hear thoughts on this especially as I'm unsure at the moment..


----------



## Jaylynne

So working for a guy who is trying to disprove credibility of an existing vaccine to promote his own isn't cause for concern?


----------



## Dk1234

JleStar said:


> Jaylynne said:
> 
> 
> Pretty sure calling someone a bitch is pot calling the kettle black and worse than delusional. You have to ignore a LARGE quantity of information to state that there is no proven effectiveness of vaccines. You state that younger neither pro nor against vaccines. I call bullshit. How could you possibly be on the fence if you see no effectiveness of a vaccine.
> 
> Because I have seen first hand people becoming Ill from the same vaccine that claims immunity.
> Break outs happen in areas where there is a high population of vaccinated
> Herd immunity is flawed.
> 
> The bitch comment is between me and the bitch respectfully.
> 
> This is like an epic battle of the likes of David and Goliath. Goliath being big pharma with their wonderful sources and smeared campaigns against the smaller....it's ok though, I am still waiting for proof that vaccines are safe and effective..do that I may one day vaccinate. Right now, it looks pretty bleakClick to expand...

The bitch????? This is not a good way to get your point across. It's rude and if you would like to take something up with me feel free to do so but don't name call and ruin a perfectly good thread thanks!


----------



## My_First

CMarie said:


> Jaylynne said:
> 
> 
> Forgot to add that dr hewitson's husband worked for dr Wakefield. Dr Wakefield is the man who's 1998 lancet study that linked vaxs to autism was retracted as fraud and he lost his license to practice medicine in Britain.
> 
> I'm not going to argue about doctors being linked to other doctors, but to be fair, many doctors who are pro-vax also are linked to the pharma companies who push the vaccines...there were even some examples in the Fourteen Studies link I posted. There are links EVERYWHERE and how you interpret them is going to be different from how I interpret them.Click to expand...

Whilst I do agree with that that links can be found, by being linked to a discredited/ struck off piece of research cannot be seen as helpful in demonstrating a link.


----------



## My_First

Saphira said:


> I'm considering delaying my daughter's MMR vaccine but can't seem to come to a conclusion on whether or not this is beneficial. She has an appointment at 11 1/2 months when she could potentially get vaccinated then but I've heard waiting until after 15 months has benefits. I'd be interested to hear thoughts on this especially as I'm unsure at the moment..

I looked into this when my son got the mmr, no one could point me into a direction which showed it was in anyway helpful, so we got them on schedule. I remember someone saying something like the measles was more effective later, I couldn't find any research to substantiate this.


----------



## Bella_Bee

I realise that much of this goes against popular thinking and so, of course, a lot of the major sources of health information will contradict much of what I have to show you. If you're looking for a .gov site reference, it's not going to happen - those are government sites. Likewise government only accredited .edu sites.

The vast majority of this is going to be raw data. For many reasons outlined over the course of this debate, a lot of studies are, unfortunately, not trustworthy due to conflicts of interest. Often, the people whose names are on the studies did not carry them out. Ghost writers are common and respected names are paid to put their name to the study, often without looking at it.

https://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2011/may/20/drug-companies-ghost-writing-journalism
https://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/11/business/11ghost.html?_r=0

You may be surprised to see that what these studies find contradicts the raw data. If you're wondering how that can be, the answer should be fairly clear.

I'll start with measles, since this about MMR.

The Measles vaccine was introduced in 1968.
https://childhealthsafety.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/0707275measleslog.jpg
https://www.whale.to/m/measle1.gif

Quite clearly, measles was on the decline (by 99.4% to be precise) before the vaccine was introduced.

Since then, it's effectiveness has been questionable. Not much changed, as you can see from the graphs. Furthermore, the percentage of children who are catching measles is higher amongst the vaccinated.

https://www.whale.to/vaccines/measlesfailure.jpg

Why the vaccine may be harmful in itself:

"Persons who have never had any visible indication of measles, i.e., never developed the skin rash of measles, suffer more frequently from non measles associated diseases." "The data show a highly significant correlation between lack of measles exanthema and auto-immune diseases, seborrhoeic skin diseases, degenerative diseases of the bones and certain tumors"
Ronne, T., "Measles virus infection without rash in childhood is related to disease in adult life," Lancet, Jan. 1985; pages 1-5.

"The results of this study indicate that findings of allergic disease are less frequent in children with a history of measles"
Kucukosmanoglu E, Cetinkaya F, Akcay F, Pekun F Frequency of allergic diseases following measles. Allergol Immunopathol (Madr). 2006 Jul-Aug;34(4):146-9


I've forgotten a lot of what I've even been saying now, what else did people want? Stuff on smallpox?


----------



## Dk1234

JleStar said:


> booflebump said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JleStar said:
> 
> 
> The bitch comment is between me and the bitch respectfully.
> 
> That may be the case, but open name calling is not permitted on the forum - either take your personal issues to pm, or stick each other on ignore so other members don't have to be subjected to itClick to expand...
> 
> I agree. Was dk1234 also reprimanded for calling me delusional? Just wondering. I apologize to all who were offended. It's not in my nature to be vicious...as you will see from my previous post, jaylynne and I were doing fine. I was gracious to all the info provided and presented even when not aligned with my own beliefs. However, when someone just plows in who hasn't been part of the conversation and calls me delusional, irresponsible or a conspiracy theorist then i take offense to that. I shouldn't have called her a bitch and she should have not called me delusional.Click to expand...

I have been a part of the conversation why don't you go back and look. Being called delusional and a high are two different things.


----------



## JleStar

Dk1234 said:


> JleStar said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jaylynne said:
> 
> 
> Pretty sure calling someone a bitch is pot calling the kettle black and worse than delusional. You have to ignore a LARGE quantity of information to state that there is no proven effectiveness of vaccines. You state that younger neither pro nor against vaccines. I call bullshit. How could you possibly be on the fence if you see no effectiveness of a vaccine.
> 
> Because I have seen first hand people becoming Ill from the same vaccine that claims immunity.
> Break outs happen in areas where there is a high population of vaccinated
> Herd immunity is flawed.
> 
> The bitch comment is between me and the bitch respectfully.
> 
> This is like an epic battle of the likes of David and Goliath. Goliath being big pharma with their wonderful sources and smeared campaigns against the smaller....it's ok though, I am still waiting for proof that vaccines are safe and effective..do that I may one day vaccinate. Right now, it looks pretty bleakClick to expand...
> 
> The bitch????? This is not a good way to get your point across. It's rude and if you would like to take something up with me feel free to do so but don't name call and ruin a perfectly good thread thanks!Click to expand...

 Hehehe I already got passed you calling me delusional. Get over it meany. 
I can't believe you haven't identified yourself as instigating the name calling.


----------



## Dk1234

JleStar said:


> booflebump said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JleStar said:
> 
> 
> The bitch comment is between me and the bitch respectfully.
> 
> That may be the case, but open name calling is not permitted on the forum - either take your personal issues to pm, or stick each other on ignore so other members don't have to be subjected to itClick to expand...
> 
> I agree. Was dk1234 also reprimanded for calling me delusional? Just wondering. I apologize to all who were offended. It's not in my nature to be vicious...as you will see from my previous post, jaylynne and I were doing fine. I was gracious to all the info provided and presented even when not aligned with my own beliefs. However, when someone just plows in who hasn't been part of the conversation and calls me delusional, irresponsible or a conspiracy theorist then i take offense to that. I shouldn't have called her a bitch and she should have not called me delusional.Click to expand...

I have been a part of the conversation why don't you go back and look. Being called delusional and a high are two different things. When whole diseases have been irradiated by a vaccine and then you say they are never efffective, that's delusion thus making you delusional. My opinion only of course. ThT isn't name calling nor attacking your character.


----------



## Dk1234

JleStar said:


> Dk1234 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JleStar said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jaylynne said:
> 
> 
> Pretty sure calling someone a bitch is pot calling the kettle black and worse than delusional. You have to ignore a LARGE quantity of information to state that there is no proven effectiveness of vaccines. You state that younger neither pro nor against vaccines. I call bullshit. How could you possibly be on the fence if you see no effectiveness of a vaccine.
> 
> Because I have seen first hand people becoming Ill from the same vaccine that claims immunity.
> Break outs happen in areas where there is a high population of vaccinated
> Herd immunity is flawed.
> 
> The bitch comment is between me and the bitch respectfully.
> 
> This is like an epic battle of the likes of David and Goliath. Goliath being big pharma with their wonderful sources and smeared campaigns against the smaller....it's ok though, I am still waiting for proof that vaccines are safe and effective..do that I may one day vaccinate. Right now, it looks pretty bleakClick to expand...
> 
> The bitch????? This is not a good way to get your point across. It's rude and if you would like to take something up with me feel free to do so but don't name call and ruin a perfectly good thread thanks!Click to expand...
> 
> Hehehe I already got passed you calling me delusional. Get over it meany.
> I can't believe you haven't identified yourself as instigating the name calling.Click to expand...

For one I haven't been on in a few hours because I've been taking care of my son; two delusional isn't a name.


----------



## Bella_Bee

Jaylynne said:


> So working for a guy who is trying to disprove credibility of an existing vaccine to promote his own isn't cause for concern?

Well that depends... You can't have it both ways. If pharmaceuticals paying healthcare professionals to promote their product and quash any anti vaccination concerns doesn't concern you then why would this?

It is clearly a matter of which "side" you are on.


----------



## Dk1234

Just read on and saw a mod asked Otto be dropped somimwill drop it now


----------



## JleStar

Dk1234 said:


> JleStar said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> booflebump said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JleStar said:
> 
> 
> The bitch comment is between me and the bitch respectfully.
> 
> That may be the case, but open name calling is not permitted on the forum - either take your personal issues to pm, or stick each other on ignore so other members don't have to be subjected to itClick to expand...
> 
> I agree. Was dk1234 also reprimanded for calling me delusional? Just wondering. I apologize to all who were offended. It's not in my nature to be vicious...as you will see from my previous post, jaylynne and I were doing fine. I was gracious to all the info provided and presented even when not aligned with my own beliefs. However, when someone just plows in who hasn't been part of the conversation and calls me delusional, irresponsible or a conspiracy theorist then i take offense to that. I shouldn't have called her a bitch and she should have not called me delusional.Click to expand...
> 
> I have been a part of the conversation why don't you go back and look. Being called delusional and a high are two different things. When whole diseases have been irradiated by a vaccine and then you say they are never efffective, that's delusion thus making you delusional. My opinion only of course. ThT isn't name calling nor attacking your character.Click to expand...

Calling someone delusional is not productive in the conversation. I already apologized. I won't apologize twice..still haven't heard yours...but that's ok..keep it, I don't need it. :thumbup:


----------



## My_First

Bella_Bee said:


> Jaylynne said:
> 
> 
> So working for a guy who is trying to disprove credibility of an existing vaccine to promote his own isn't cause for concern?
> 
> Well that depends... You can't have it both ways. If pharmaceuticals paying healthcare professionals to promote their product and quash any anti vaccination concerns doesn't concern you then why would this?
> 
> It is clearly a matter of which "side" you are on.Click to expand...

Are you aware how pharma reps work?

They aren't always the only players in the market place with a product and therefore the reps just like any other company rep has to go and sell his product. A bit like if my company was implementing new software the rep might take me to dinner of buy me a Christmas card. I don't see why that is an issue? It's a transactional sale. Everyone is in business ( I repeat capitalism).
And what makes you believe they quash any vaccines concerns. Heck even we know there are concerns but its risk v benefit. Luckily most medical practitioners and patients look at it like this. 

The way I see it is this. When I went for my c section/ ear operation I had to sign a medical waiver, but it was risk on both counts I chose to take as I have a beautiful son and pretty much perfect hearing. But the stats of failure/death/ long and short term effects were there . If the risks were do high why not waiver them? Clearly the risks are not high enough to even consider it.


----------



## CMarie

My_First said:


> Bella_Bee said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jaylynne said:
> 
> 
> So working for a guy who is trying to disprove credibility of an existing vaccine to promote his own isn't cause for concern?
> 
> Well that depends... You can't have it both ways. If pharmaceuticals paying healthcare professionals to promote their product and quash any anti vaccination concerns doesn't concern you then why would this?
> 
> It is clearly a matter of which "side" you are on.Click to expand...
> 
> Are you aware how pharma reps work?
> 
> They aren't always the only players in the market place with a product and therefore the reps just like any other company rep has to go and sell his product. A bit like if my company was implementing new software the rep might take me to dinner of buy me a Christmas card. I don't see why that is an issue? It's a transactional sale. Everyone is in business ( I repeat capitalism).
> And what makes you believe they quash any vaccines concerns. Heck even we know there are concerns but its risk v benefit. Luckily most medical practitioners and patients look at it like this.
> 
> The way I see it is this. When I went for my c section/ ear operation I had to sign a medical waiver, but it was risk on both counts I chose to take as I have a beautiful son and pretty much perfect hearing. But the stats of failure/death/ long and short term effects were there . If the risks were do high why not waiver them? Clearly the risks are not high enough to even consider it.Click to expand...

It's interesting that you bring up a waiver. I asked my own doctor if she would sign a waiver for my son's vaccines and she said no. Sure one way you could look at it is that the risks aren't high enough to even consider a waiver, but the way I see it is doctors don't know for sure how babies will react to each vaccine. My cousin happens to have a dairy allergy and had a SEVERE allergic reactions to one of his vaccine (there's bovine serum in some) and his doctor refused to give him an allergy test prior to his shots. Doctors (and pharma companies) do not want to be liable for any long term (or even short term) consequences for vaccines...hence the reason there is no waiver. That's just my belief though :)


----------



## JleStar

Dk1234 said:


> JleStar said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dk1234 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JleStar said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jaylynne said:
> 
> 
> Pretty sure calling someone a bitch is pot calling the kettle black and worse than delusional. You have to ignore a LARGE quantity of information to state that there is no proven effectiveness of vaccines. You state that younger neither pro nor against vaccines. I call bullshit. How could you possibly be on the fence if you see no effectiveness of a vaccine.
> 
> Because I have seen first hand people becoming Ill from the same vaccine that claims immunity.
> Break outs happen in areas where there is a high population of vaccinated
> Herd immunity is flawed.
> 
> The bitch comment is between me and the bitch respectfully.
> 
> This is like an epic battle of the likes of David and Goliath. Goliath being big pharma with their wonderful sources and smeared campaigns against the smaller....it's ok though, I am still waiting for proof that vaccines are safe and effective..do that I may one day vaccinate. Right now, it looks pretty bleakClick to expand...
> 
> The bitch????? This is not a good way to get your point across. It's rude and if you would like to take something up with me feel free to do so but don't name call and ruin a perfectly good thread thanks!Click to expand...
> 
> Hehehe I already got passed you calling me delusional. Get over it meany.
> I can't believe you haven't identified yourself as instigating the name calling.Click to expand...
> 
> For one I haven't been on in a few hours because I've been taking care of my son; two delusional isn't a name.Click to expand...

I thought we were ending this. :dohh: you don't know me, so quit it please.


----------



## My_First

CMarie said:


> My_First said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bella_Bee said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jaylynne said:
> 
> 
> So working for a guy who is trying to disprove credibility of an existing vaccine to promote his own isn't cause for concern?
> 
> Well that depends... You can't have it both ways. If pharmaceuticals paying healthcare professionals to promote their product and quash any anti vaccination concerns doesn't concern you then why would this?
> 
> It is clearly a matter of which "side" you are on.Click to expand...
> 
> Are you aware how pharma reps work?
> 
> They aren't always the only players in the market place with a product and therefore the reps just like any other company rep has to go and sell his product. A bit like if my company was implementing new software the rep might take me to dinner of buy me a Christmas card. I don't see why that is an issue? It's a transactional sale. Everyone is in business ( I repeat capitalism).
> And what makes you believe they quash any vaccines concerns. Heck even we know there are concerns but its risk v benefit. Luckily most medical practitioners and patients look at it like this.
> 
> The way I see it is this. When I went for my c section/ ear operation I had to sign a medical waiver, but it was risk on both counts I chose to take as I have a beautiful son and pretty much perfect hearing. But the stats of failure/death/ long and short term effects were there . If the risks were do high why not waiver them? Clearly the risks are not high enough to even consider it.Click to expand...
> 
> It's interesting that you bring up a waiver. I asked my own doctor if she would sign a waiver for my son's vaccines and she said no. Sure one way you could look at it is that the risks aren't high enough to even consider a waiver, but the way I see it is doctors don't know for sure how babies will react to each vaccine. My cousin happens to have a dairy allergy and had a SEVERE allergic reactions to one of his vaccine (there's bovine serum in some) and his doctor refused to give him an allergy test prior to his shots. Doctors (and pharma companies) do not want to be liable for any long term (or even short term) consequences for vaccines...hence the reason there is no waiver. That's just my belief though :)Click to expand...

That doesn't make sense though as a waiver would not make them liable, hence the waiver.


----------



## Jaylynne

Knock it off. Calling her a meanie is name calling again. Grow up. She already apologized that she didnt see the mods post.


----------



## CMarie

I guess I didn't word that correctly...

No doctor will sign a waiver saying that they are responsible for any consequences of vaccines. They won't sign a waiver saying that the vaccine is 100% safe or 100% effective. Why? Because if something does happen, they become liable...they signed saying that baby would be safe. That's what I meant by doctors don't know how babies are going to react to vaccines...some babies who have undiscovered allergies could become seriously ill, some babies may develop the actual disease the vaccine was suppose to prevent, and some babies may change completely in terms of behavior.

Here's a link that kind of explains what I'm trying to say...

https://www.naturalnews.com/036006_vaccination_doctor_form.html


----------



## Dk1234

Back in on the debate side of things now that I've read about 20 pages of stuff I've missed. In America there are huge regulations on what pharmaceutical companies can offer health care providers now. So all this talk of how curuot it is doesn't mean as much now as it would have ten years ago at least in the states. Yes they fund research because it is only responsible to research your drug and its effects but paying off politicians and physicians so that vaccines are kept in circulation just isn't true.


----------



## My_First

Got you, I meant a waiver the other way around. Of course there are kiddies out there with pre disposed conditions etc. that no one can be certain of. And all drugs from a simple pain killer can cause tragic consequences. luckily its rare. As I think i and all the pro vaxers here have said its risk v benefit.


----------



## Dk1234

A dr shouldn't have to sign a waiver for a vaccine. I'm not sure I get what is being said with this. Dr aren't responsible for your reactions to medicine or allergies that's just silly. Malpractice is when a dr. Is negligent or makes a mistake or is careless. A reaction to the medicine would never be the dr's responsibility unless he/she gave two much or administered it wrong.


----------



## CMarie

Dk1234 said:


> A dr shouldn't have to sign a waiver for a vaccine. I'm not sure I get what is being said with this. Dr aren't responsible for your reactions to medicine or allergies that's just silly. Malpractice is when a dr. Is negligent or makes a mistake or is careless. A reaction to the medicine would never be the dr's responsibility unless he/she gave two much or administered it wrong.

For all the doctors that say vaccines are 100% safe and effective, I absolutely think they should have to sign a waiver. If they can tell me that all the chemicals in these vaccines are safe, then they should put their money where their mouths are...they should have no problems at all with signing one.


----------



## Jaylynne

Seriously, what drs are saying that vaccines are 100% safe and effective? Where has this been said?!


----------



## aliss

CMarie said:


> Dk1234 said:
> 
> 
> A dr shouldn't have to sign a waiver for a vaccine. I'm not sure I get what is being said with this. Dr aren't responsible for your reactions to medicine or allergies that's just silly. Malpractice is when a dr. Is negligent or makes a mistake or is careless. A reaction to the medicine would never be the dr's responsibility unless he/she gave two much or administered it wrong.
> 
> For all the doctors that say vaccines are 100% safe and effective, I absolutely think they should have to sign a waiver. If they can tell me that all the chemicals in these vaccines are safe, then they should put their money where their mouths are...they should have no problems at all with signing one.Click to expand...

Which doctor says they are 100% safe and effective? Even in our Quebec vaccination booklets given by the government, it lists the risks of vaccination ranging from common effects (rash) right down to a very remote risk of death or paralysis. 

And no, no doctor is going to sign such a document. That is not a "waiver". That was not written by a medical malpractice attorney, was it? I can't even believe a first year law student would come up with such a "waiver"? It bears no resemblance to a proper legal document and the language is written in an inflammatory manner without legal credibility, any concept of what medical malpractice or personal injury actually is, and well, it's worthless in a court!


----------



## joshiesmum

Both mine have had all their vaccines. i personally think its irresponsible to not vaccinate your kids. i know alot of people will be annoyed by that statement but im a nurse and it is just comnon sense to me. id also be annoyed if i found out unvaccinated kids were around mine. not trying to offend anyone just my opinion x


----------



## Jaylynne

joshiesmum said:


> Both mine have had all their vaccines. i personally think its irresponsible to not vaccinate your kids. i know alot of people will be annoyed by that statement but im a nurse and it is just comnon sense to me. id also be annoyed if i found out unvaccinated kids were around mine. not trying to offend anyone just my opinion x

This is exactly why I'm so passionate about it. Because others choices not to vaccinate can affect my children.


----------



## CMarie

In my son's case I actually had 2 doctors say that they were 100% safe and effective...sorry if no one else has experienced the same. And on another note, out of all 4 doctors I've taken my son to, not 1 has EVER showed me the vaccine inserts...I had to look them up myself online.


----------



## joshiesmum

Jaylynne said:


> joshiesmum said:
> 
> 
> Both mine have had all their vaccines. i personally think its irresponsible to not vaccinate your kids. i know alot of people will be annoyed by that statement but im a nurse and it is just comnon sense to me. id also be annoyed if i found out unvaccinated kids were around mine. not trying to offend anyone just my opinion x
> 
> This is exactly why I'm so passionate about it. Because others choices not to vaccinate can affect my children.Click to expand...

:-D i know in my sons school the children have to be vaccinated or else they cant be accepted. i struggle to understand why parents put there childs life at riskby not v accinating :-( it worries me xxx


----------



## CMarie

joshiesmum said:


> Jaylynne said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> joshiesmum said:
> 
> 
> Both mine have had all their vaccines. i personally think its irresponsible to not vaccinate your kids. i know alot of people will be annoyed by that statement but im a nurse and it is just comnon sense to me. id also be annoyed if i found out unvaccinated kids were around mine. not trying to offend anyone just my opinion x
> 
> This is exactly why I'm so passionate about it. Because others choices not to vaccinate can affect my children.Click to expand...
> 
> :-D i know in my sons school the children have to be vaccinated or else they cant be accepted. i struggle to understand why parents put there childs life at riskby not v accinating :-( it worries me xxxClick to expand...

Because those of us who don't vaccinate believe we put our children's life more at risk if we do vaccinate ;)


----------



## joshiesmum

CMarie said:


> joshiesmum said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jaylynne said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> joshiesmum said:
> 
> 
> Both mine have had all their vaccines. i personally think its irresponsible to not vaccinate your kids. i know alot of people will be annoyed by that statement but im a nurse and it is just comnon sense to me. id also be annoyed if i found out unvaccinated kids were around mine. not trying to offend anyone just my opinion x
> 
> This is exactly why I'm so passionate about it. Because others choices not to vaccinate can affect my children.Click to expand...
> 
> :-D i know in my sons school the children have to be vaccinated or else they cant be accepted. i struggle to understand why parents put there childs life at riskby not v accinating :-( it worries me xxxClick to expand...
> 
> Because those of us who don't vaccinate believe we put our children's life more at risk if we do vaccinate ;)Click to expand...

as long as your childs no were near mine you do as you pleasr


----------



## CMarie

joshiesmum said:


> CMarie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> joshiesmum said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jaylynne said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> joshiesmum said:
> 
> 
> Both mine have had all their vaccines. i personally think its irresponsible to not vaccinate your kids. i know alot of people will be annoyed by that statement but im a nurse and it is just comnon sense to me. id also be annoyed if i found out unvaccinated kids were around mine. not trying to offend anyone just my opinion x
> 
> This is exactly why I'm so passionate about it. Because others choices not to vaccinate can affect my children.Click to expand...
> 
> :-D i know in my sons school the children have to be vaccinated or else they cant be accepted. i struggle to understand why parents put there childs life at riskby not v accinating :-( it worries me xxxClick to expand...
> 
> Because those of us who don't vaccinate believe we put our children's life more at risk if we do vaccinate ;)Click to expand...
> 
> as long as your childs no were near mine you do as you pleasrClick to expand...

How would you know if mine was?...It's not as if unvaccinated kids walk around with a sign on them :wacko:


----------



## CMarie

joshiesmum said:


> CMarie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> joshiesmum said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jaylynne said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> joshiesmum said:
> 
> 
> Both mine have had all their vaccines. i personally think its irresponsible to not vaccinate your kids. i know alot of people will be annoyed by that statement but im a nurse and it is just comnon sense to me. id also be annoyed if i found out unvaccinated kids were around mine. not trying to offend anyone just my opinion x
> 
> This is exactly why I'm so passionate about it. Because others choices not to vaccinate can affect my children.Click to expand...
> 
> :-D i know in my sons school the children have to be vaccinated or else they cant be accepted. i struggle to understand why parents put there childs life at riskby not v accinating :-( it worries me xxxClick to expand...
> 
> Because those of us who don't vaccinate believe we put our children's life more at risk if we do vaccinate ;)Click to expand...
> 
> as long as your childs no were near mine you do as you pleasrClick to expand...

And, just as another question, why would you care? If your children are vaccinated then they're safe...right? So it shouldn't matter if my unvaccinated child is near yours...


----------



## joshiesmum

Because in my sons school you have to show certificates to say they have had their jabs or your child cant go there


----------



## CMarie

joshiesmum said:


> Because in my sons school you have to show certificates to say they have had their jabs or your child cant go there

Ok...but anywhere else...grocery store, playground, mall..your child could come in contact with an unvaccinated child OR adult anywhere. And that still doesn't tell me why it should matter...my child shouldn't be a threat to yours if yours is safe due to vaccines.


----------



## joshiesmum

I just think its irresponsible!!! Why on earth would you not vaccinate your child against life threatening diaeases!!! My heads battered!!! I have NEVER untill i came on b and b come across a parent who chooses not to vaccinate their child!!


----------



## joshiesmum

I just cant wait untill i go to work tomorrow and tell drs and nurses that there are people that choose not to give their kids jabs!! It will give us all a laugh anyway!!


----------



## CMarie

joshiesmum said:


> I just think its irresponsible!!! Why on earth would you not vaccinate your child against life threatening diaeases!!! My heads battered!!! I have NEVER untill i came on b and b come across a parent who chooses not to vaccinate their child!!

LOL you still didn't answer my question...and there's no need to be snippy :)

Anyways, after everything I've read, I honestly do not believe that many of these diseases are life-threatening. Sure they could DEVELOP into something life-threatening, but so could anything...I've had a chest infection that developed into a serious asthma attack in which I could have died.


----------



## Dk1234

CMarie said:


> joshiesmum said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jaylynne said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> joshiesmum said:
> 
> 
> Both mine have had all their vaccines. i personally think its irresponsible to not vaccinate your kids. i know alot of people will be annoyed by that statement but im a nurse and it is just comnon sense to me. id also be annoyed if i found out unvaccinated kids were around mine. not trying to offend anyone just my opinion x
> 
> This is exactly why I'm so passionate about it. Because others choices not to vaccinate can affect my children.Click to expand...
> 
> :-D i know in my sons school the children have to be vaccinated or else they cant be accepted. i struggle to understand why parents put there childs life at riskby not v accinating :-( it worries me xxxClick to expand...
> 
> Because those of us who don't vaccinate believe we put our children's life more at risk if we do vaccinate ;)Click to expand...

I know autism is horrible and it scares me to death. And also getting sick from a vaccine is awful to but isn't death from a whole host of diseases a worse risk????? How is the risk of vaccinating worse????


----------



## joshiesmum

Sorry if ive upset anyone but ive just never heard of not vaccinating children maybe its where i come from? Oh well. nite nite ladies got be up early. this is definatly something i will read up on though xxxx


----------



## Jaylynne

I'm done with this. If people really want to bury their head in the sand and think that these diseases arent life threatening... I do feel sorry for your children.


----------



## CMarie

Jaylynne said:


> I'm done with this. If people really want to bury their head in the sand and think that these diseases arent life threatening... I do feel sorry for your children.

Well, all I'll say is that I'm very glad your child never had an adverse reaction :)

@Joshiesmom...I'm sorry as well :) It's becoming quite common in Canada (at least in the part I'm from) to not vaccinate so I guess I'm not use to the passion that you have towards being pro-vax!


----------



## Bella_Bee

Did anyone even bother to look at the information I came back with? There is, quite clearly, no head burying here. The raw data does not lie. Yes, they are life threatening... 0.25% of the time (this includes those with health issues). That's not enough to risk the long term immune system damage that I believe occurs with caccination. One day a disease or virus will come along that will require a truly seasoned immune system to overcome and it's coming sooner than we'd like to think, thanks to vaccines, antibiotic overuse and antibacterial hysteria, and those who have little to no immiune system will be the first to go.

I wouldn't risk that happening to my child for anything, least of all a ridiculously low risk of dying or becoming seriously ill from a minor childhood disease.

I hope the info was useful to somebody, but I am now wasting my time and energy.


----------



## JleStar

joshiesmum said:


> Both mine have had all their vaccines. i personally think its irresponsible to not vaccinate your kids. i know alot of people will be annoyed by that statement but im a nurse and it is just comnon sense to me. id also be annoyed if i found out unvaccinated kids were around mine. not trying to offend anyone just my opinion x

That's ridiculous. Is my unvaccinated kid gonna affect yours? If your child had the vaccine, the should be immune, right?


----------



## JleStar

Bella_Bee said:


> Did anyone even bother to look at the information I came back with? There is, quite clearly, no head burying here. The raw data does not lie. Yes, they are life threatening... 0.25% of the time (this includes those with health issues). That's not enough to risk the long term immune system damage that I believe occurs with caccination. One day a disease or virus will come along that will require a truly seasoned immune system to overcome and it's coming sooner than we'd like to think, thanks to vaccines, antibiotic overuse and antibacterial hysteria, and those who have little to no immiune system will be the first to go.
> 
> I wouldn't risk that happening to my child for anything, least of all a ridiculously low risk of dying or becoming seriously ill from a minor childhood disease.
> 
> I hope the info was useful to somebody, but I am now wasting my time and energy.

I'm looking forward to viewing your info. Thanks!


----------



## staralfur

CMarie said:


> @Joshiesmom...I'm sorry as well :)* It's becoming quite common in Canada (at least in the part I'm from) to not vaccinate* so I guess I'm not use to the passion that you have towards being pro-vax!

Which is probably why we're dealing with a whooping cough epidemic now.


----------



## JleStar

staralfur said:


> CMarie said:
> 
> 
> @Joshiesmom...I'm sorry as well :)* It's becoming quite common in Canada (at least in the part I'm from) to not vaccinate* so I guess I'm not use to the passion that you have towards being pro-vax!
> 
> Which is probably why we're dealing with a whooping cough epidemic now.Click to expand...

I believe whopping cough comes back every couple of years regardless.


----------



## Bella_Bee

Jaylynne said:


> Bella_Bee said:
> 
> 
> OK, I'm here now! Stick with me, I'm still not 100%
> 
> Just to say, though, Jaylynne in the times of the plague people were living in squalor and nutrition was incredibly poor.
> 
> Sort of like the 3rd world countries non profits are trying to immunize...Click to expand...

Just seen this. Vaccines are significantly less effective under these circumstances. "Non profits" would do well to invest their time in a more effective line of defence.


----------



## JleStar

joshiesmum said:


> I just cant wait untill i go to work tomorrow and tell drs and nurses that there are people that choose not to give their kids jabs!! It will give us all a laugh anyway!!

Wow..glad to make you laugh. That's a bit nasty.


----------



## staralfur

To be fair, I'm sure most health professionals are well aware that some parents choose to opt out of vaccinations. It's not like the three people in this thread are the only people to do so. ;)


----------



## JleStar

Jaylynne said:


> I'm done with this. If people really want to bury their head in the sand and think that these diseases arent life threatening... I do feel sorry for your children.

That's pretty arrogant of you to say this. What happened to the nice, healthy debate? Did you watch the video and check out bellbee's research?


----------



## JleStar

Bella bee, 
What page is your info on..I'm getting a headache from flipping through


----------



## CMarie

staralfur said:


> CMarie said:
> 
> 
> @Joshiesmom...I'm sorry as well :)* It's becoming quite common in Canada (at least in the part I'm from) to not vaccinate* so I guess I'm not use to the passion that you have towards being pro-vax!
> 
> Which is probably why we're dealing with a whooping cough epidemic now.Click to expand...

Maybe in Vancouver, but I'm unaware of that in Alberta at all...and I know quite a few kids who aren't vaccinated :)


----------



## Bella_Bee

In fact, vaccines in the developing world are all the more bothersome. Such vulnerable people are much more likely to suffer an adverse reaction or mercury toxicity ( mercury and thermiserol are still used in vaccines in these countries...).

Furthermore, they could really do with the immune system boost of recovering from one of these diseases.


----------



## Bella_Bee

It's on page 35


----------



## Dk1234

Bella_Bee said:


> I realise that much of this goes against popular thinking and so, of course, a lot of the major sources of health information will contradict much of what I have to show you. If you're looking for a .gov site reference, it's not going to happen - those are government sites. Likewise government only accredited .edu sites.
> 
> The vast majority of this is going to be raw data. For many reasons outlined over the course of this debate, a lot of studies are, unfortunately, not trustworthy due to conflicts of interest. Often, the people whose names are on the studies did not carry them out. Ghost writers are common and respected names are paid to put their name to the study, often without looking at it.
> 
> https://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2011/may/20/drug-companies-ghost-writing-journalism
> https://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/11/business/11ghost.html?_r=0
> 
> You may be surprised to see that what these studies find contradicts the raw data. If you're wondering how that can be, the answer should be fairly clear.
> 
> I'll start with measles, since this about MMR.
> 
> The Measles vaccine was introduced in 1968.
> https://childhealthsafety.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/0707275measleslog.jpg
> https://www.whale.to/m/measle1.gif
> 
> Quite clearly, measles was on the decline (by 99.4% to be precise) before the vaccine was introduced.
> 
> Since then, it's effectiveness has been questionable. Not much changed, as you can see from the graphs. Furthermore, the percentage of children who are catching measles is higher amongst the vaccinated.
> 
> https://www.whale.to/vaccines/measlesfailure.jpg
> 
> Why the vaccine may be harmful in itself:
> 
> "Persons who have never had any visible indication of measles, i.e., never developed the skin rash of measles, suffer more frequently from non measles associated diseases." "The data show a highly significant correlation between lack of measles exanthema and auto-immune diseases, seborrhoeic skin diseases, degenerative diseases of the bones and certain tumors"
> Ronne, T., "Measles virus infection without rash in childhood is related to disease in adult life," Lancet, Jan. 1985; pages 1-5.
> 
> "The results of this study indicate that findings of allergic disease are less frequent in children with a history of measles"
> Kucukosmanoglu E, Cetinkaya F, Akcay F, Pekun F Frequency of allergic diseases following measles. Allergol Immunopathol (Madr). 2006 Jul-Aug;34(4):146-9
> 
> 
> I've forgotten a lot of what I've even been saying now, what else did people want? Stuff on smallpox?

Am I missing something. What in any of this tells you vaccinating is worse than not vaccinating???


----------



## MrsWhite

I honestly read the first few pages and the last page, since there are 40 pages I'm not going to read it all right now, BUT....

While I know it has been said that the man who did the study linking the MMR to autism has been discredited, and all the data in the world cannot erase doubts created by stories you hear from people you know and trust. I work with a Registered Nurse who has three children, one of whom is autistic. She said that the day she took him to get his MMR (14 months) he was smiling and saying in his baby talk "I love you" to her, and after she took him home he stopped talking altogether. She said "It was like I took home a different baby" which is a turn of phrase I have seen a few times just in this threat. So all of the data in the world can't make me feel good about taking my son to get his MMR. 
Fortunately his doctor is understanding and while she explained that the study is discredited, she said we could wait til 18 months unless there is an outbreak. I have three months and I still don't know if I want to vaccinate him...


----------



## JleStar

Dk1234 said:


> Bella_Bee said:
> 
> 
> I realise that much of this goes against popular thinking and so, of course, a lot of the major sources of health information will contradict much of what I have to show you. If you're looking for a .gov site reference, it's not going to happen - those are government sites. Likewise government only accredited .edu sites.
> 
> The vast majority of this is going to be raw data. For many reasons outlined over the course of this debate, a lot of studies are, unfortunately, not trustworthy due to conflicts of interest. Often, the people whose names are on the studies did not carry them out. Ghost writers are common and respected names are paid to put their name to the study, often without looking at it.
> 
> https://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2011/may/20/drug-companies-ghost-writing-journalism
> https://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/11/business/11ghost.html?_r=0
> 
> You may be surprised to see that what these studies find contradicts the raw data. If you're wondering how that can be, the answer should be fairly clear.
> 
> I'll start with measles, since this about MMR.
> 
> The Measles vaccine was introduced in 1968.
> https://childhealthsafety.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/0707275measleslog.jpg
> https://www.whale.to/m/measle1.gif
> 
> Quite clearly, measles was on the decline (by 99.4% to be precise) before the vaccine was introduced.
> 
> Since then, it's effectiveness has been questionable. Not much changed, as you can see from the graphs. Furthermore, the percentage of children who are catching measles is higher amongst the vaccinated.
> 
> https://www.whale.to/vaccines/measlesfailure.jpg
> 
> Why the vaccine may be harmful in itself:
> 
> "Persons who have never had any visible indication of measles, i.e., never developed the skin rash of measles, suffer more frequently from non measles associated diseases." "The data show a highly significant correlation between lack of measles exanthema and auto-immune diseases, seborrhoeic skin diseases, degenerative diseases of the bones and certain tumors"
> Ronne, T., "Measles virus infection without rash in childhood is related to disease in adult life," Lancet, Jan. 1985; pages 1-5.
> 
> "The results of this study indicate that findings of allergic disease are less frequent in children with a history of measles"
> Kucukosmanoglu E, Cetinkaya F, Akcay F, Pekun F Frequency of allergic diseases following measles. Allergol Immunopathol (Madr). 2006 Jul-Aug;34(4):146-9
> 
> 
> I've forgotten a lot of what I've even been saying now, what else did people want? Stuff on smallpox?
> 
> Am I missing something. What in any of this tells you vaccinating is worse than not vaccinating???Click to expand...

The last pie charts just show the effectiveness of the vaccine. Vaccinated populations still get the measles. That's very significant. Why take the risk with the vaccine if your child may get the disease anyways. 
The first charts show that the disease was on its ways out naturally but since vaccinations came not the picture more outbreaks occured.
hey, no hard feelings by the way--I mean that. I think we are all just a little passionate about this topic. I don't think your a b. :flower:


----------



## Jaylynne

Dk1234 said:


> Bella_Bee said:
> 
> 
> I realise that much of this goes against popular thinking and so, of course, a lot of the major sources of health information will contradict much of what I have to show you. If you're looking for a .gov site reference, it's not going to happen - those are government sites. Likewise government only accredited .edu sites.
> 
> The vast majority of this is going to be raw data. For many reasons outlined over the course of this debate, a lot of studies are, unfortunately, not trustworthy due to conflicts of interest. Often, the people whose names are on the studies did not carry them out. Ghost writers are common and respected names are paid to put their name to the study, often without looking at it.
> 
> https://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2011/may/20/drug-companies-ghost-writing-journalism
> https://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/11/business/11ghost.html?_r=0
> 
> You may be surprised to see that what these studies find contradicts the raw data. If you're wondering how that can be, the answer should be fairly clear.
> 
> I'll start with measles, since this about MMR.
> 
> The Measles vaccine was introduced in 1968.
> https://childhealthsafety.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/0707275measleslog.jpg
> https://www.whale.to/m/measle1.gif
> 
> Quite clearly, measles was on the decline (by 99.4% to be precise) before the vaccine was introduced.
> 
> Since then, it's effectiveness has been questionable. Not much changed, as you can see from the graphs. Furthermore, the percentage of children who are catching measles is higher amongst the vaccinated.
> 
> https://www.whale.to/vaccines/measlesfailure.jpg
> 
> Why the vaccine may be harmful in itself:
> 
> "Persons who have never had any visible indication of measles, i.e., never developed the skin rash of measles, suffer more frequently from non measles associated diseases." "The data show a highly significant correlation between lack of measles exanthema and auto-immune diseases, seborrhoeic skin diseases, degenerative diseases of the bones and certain tumors"
> Ronne, T., "Measles virus infection without rash in childhood is related to disease in adult life," Lancet, Jan. 1985; pages 1-5.
> 
> "The results of this study indicate that findings of allergic disease are less frequent in children with a history of measles"
> Kucukosmanoglu E, Cetinkaya F, Akcay F, Pekun F Frequency of allergic diseases following measles. Allergol Immunopathol (Madr). 2006 Jul-Aug;34(4):146-9
> 
> 
> I've forgotten a lot of what I've even been saying now, what else did people want? Stuff on smallpox?
> 
> would just like to point out that your charts are flat out lies. using the us census, you can easily see the incidences(p 875) of measles pre vaccinations. would you like to suggest the US census lied or has historical errors?
> https://www.census.gov/prod/99pubs/99statab/sec31.pdf
> 
> you may also note the dramatic downward trend of whooping cough incidences after the vaccine was introduced in the 1950s.Click to expand...


----------



## tu123

JleStar said:


> Dk1234 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bella_Bee said:
> 
> 
> I realise that much of this goes against popular thinking and so, of course, a lot of the major sources of health information will contradict much of what I have to show you. If you're looking for a .gov site reference, it's not going to happen - those are government sites. Likewise government only accredited .edu sites.
> 
> The vast majority of this is going to be raw data. For many reasons outlined over the course of this debate, a lot of studies are, unfortunately, not trustworthy due to conflicts of interest. Often, the people whose names are on the studies did not carry them out. Ghost writers are common and respected names are paid to put their name to the study, often without looking at it.
> 
> https://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2011/may/20/drug-comp'anies-ghost-writing-journalism
> https://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/11/business/11ghost.html?_r=0
> 
> You may be surprised to see that what these studies find contradicts the raw data. If you're wondering how that can be, the answer should be fairly clear.
> 
> I'll start with measles, since this about MMR.
> 
> The Measles vaccine was introduced in 1968.
> https://childhealthsafety.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/0707275measleslog.jpg
> https://www.whale.to/m/measle1.gif
> 
> Quite clearly, measles was on the decline (by 99.4% to be precise) before the vaccine was introduced.
> 
> Since then, it's effectiveness has been questionable. Not much changed, as you can see from the graphs. Furthermore, the percentage of children who are catching measles is higher amongst the vaccinated.
> 
> https://www.whale.to/vaccines/measlesfailure.jpg
> 
> Why the vaccine may be harmful in itself:
> 
> "Persons who have never had any visible indication of measles, i.e., never developed the skin rash of measles, suffer more frequently from non measles associated diseases." "The data show a highly significant correlation between lack of measles exanthema and auto-immune diseases, seborrhoeic skin diseases, degenerative diseases of the bones and certain tumors"
> Ronne, T., "Measles virus infection without rash in childhood is related to disease in adult life," Lancet, Jan. 1985; pages 1-5.
> 
> "The results of this study indicate that findings of allergic disease are less frequent in children with a history of measles"
> Kucukosmanoglu E, Cetinkaya F, Akcay F, Pekun F Frequency of allergic diseases following measles. Allergol Immunopathol (Madr). 2006 Jul-Aug;34(4):146-9
> 
> 
> I've forgotten a lot of what I've even been saying now, what else did people want? Stuff on smallpox?
> 
> Am I missing something. What in any of this tells you vaccinating is worse than not vaccinating???Click to expand...
> 
> The last pie charts just show the effectiveness of the vaccine. Vaccinated populations still get the measles. That's very significant. Why take the risk with the vaccine if your child may get the disease anyways.
> The first charts show that the disease was on its ways out naturally but since vaccinations came not the picture more outbreaks occured.
> hey, no hard feelings by the way--I mean that. I think we are all just a little passionate about this topic. I don't think your a b. :flower:Click to expand...

This is the problem with graphs. They can b interpreted to mean anything. What the charts don't tell you is how poorly were those who were vaccinated but still contracted the disease were. Eg, how many vaccinated lost limbs, went deaf ans suffered brain damage vs. Those who weren't vaccinated and for the disease. It also doesn't tell you about changes in medical science, improved vaccine,genetic variations of the disease,etc.


----------



## SjandPeanut

Why are you only focussing on measels? What about mumps- one of the leading causes of viral menigitis in children, or is that something you expect kids with a good diet will just get over?

https://www.cks.nhs.uk/immunization...ildhood_immunization_programme_coverage/mumps


----------



## Ozzieshunni

Soooooo, some of these diseases are not life threatening, this is true. But many children that have gotten them are left with life long after effects. I believe it's mumps that causes boys to be infertile?


----------



## NickyKB

Jaylynne said:


> Dk1234 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bella_Bee said:
> 
> 
> I realise that much of this goes against popular thinking and so, of course, a lot of the major sources of health information will contradict much of what I have to show you. If you're looking for a .gov site reference, it's not going to happen - those are government sites. Likewise government only accredited .edu sites.
> 
> The vast majority of this is going to be raw data. For many reasons outlined over the course of this debate, a lot of studies are, unfortunately, not trustworthy due to conflicts of interest. Often, the people whose names are on the studies did not carry them out. Ghost writers are common and respected names are paid to put their name to the study, often without looking at it.
> 
> https://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2011/may/20/drug-companies-ghost-writing-journalism
> https://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/11/business/11ghost.html?_r=0
> 
> You may be surprised to see that what these studies find contradicts the raw data. If you're wondering how that can be, the answer should be fairly clear.
> 
> I'll start with measles, since this about MMR.
> 
> The Measles vaccine was introduced in 1968.
> https://childhealthsafety.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/0707275measleslog.jpg
> https://www.whale.to/m/measle1.gif
> 
> Quite clearly, measles was on the decline (by 99.4% to be precise) before the vaccine was introduced.
> 
> Since then, it's effectiveness has been questionable. Not much changed, as you can see from the graphs. Furthermore, the percentage of children who are catching measles is higher amongst the vaccinated.
> 
> https://www.whale.to/vaccines/measlesfailure.jpg
> 
> Why the vaccine may be harmful in itself:
> 
> "Persons who have never had any visible indication of measles, i.e., never developed the skin rash of measles, suffer more frequently from non measles associated diseases." "The data show a highly significant correlation between lack of measles exanthema and auto-immune diseases, seborrhoeic skin diseases, degenerative diseases of the bones and certain tumors"
> Ronne, T., "Measles virus infection without rash in childhood is related to disease in adult life," Lancet, Jan. 1985; pages 1-5.
> 
> "The results of this study indicate that findings of allergic disease are less frequent in children with a history of measles"
> Kucukosmanoglu E, Cetinkaya F, Akcay F, Pekun F Frequency of allergic diseases following measles. Allergol Immunopathol (Madr). 2006 Jul-Aug;34(4):146-9
> 
> 
> I've forgotten a lot of what I've even been saying now, what else did people want? Stuff on smallpox?
> 
> would just like to point out that your charts are flat out lies. using the us census, you can easily see the incidences(p 875) of measles pre vaccinations. would you like to suggest the US census lied or has historical errors?
> https://www.census.gov/prod/99pubs/99statab/sec31.pdf
> 
> you may also note the dramatic downward trend of whooping cough incidences after the vaccine was introduced in the 1950s.Click to expand...
> 
> OK someone may have already pointed this out but we need the vaccination uptake data to be able to interpret the pie charts as without them they coukd mean anything. eg last one showing ~56% cases in vaccinated people - if uptake is 56% then it would seem to offer little protection but if vaccine uptake is 99% then 44% of cases are occuring in the 1% unvaccinated population at which point the vaccine protection is pretty good...Click to expand...


----------



## AimeeM

Lydiarose said:


> we got oscars 2 weeks ago at almost 2,i thought it would be easier on his body being a bit bigger but no,weve had 2 weeks of hell,his behaviours changed drastically he wont sleep hes very hyperactive and has been constantly ill,its got to the stage where im becoming concerned,wish id of gone with my insticts and not had it done at all.
> 
> i dont even recognise him at the moment.
> 
> x

Oh no, I am really sorry to hear this :hugs:

I have my own opinions on the MMR and vaccines in general. I don't care to be shot down on an internet forum for my opinions though so I keep them to myself.


----------



## SabrinaKat

Hello! I had a fantastic sleep last night and returned to.....OMG!

First of all, I am sorry to the ladies who know of and/or their own children have been adversely affected by the MMR (MrsWhite, previous page and LydiaRose) -- it IS that which scares me the most. I am a pretty logical, organised person who loves statistics, footnotes, research, etc., but personal stories do make me hesitate. I am still pro-vaccination as historical evidence shows modern medicine is effective (not 100% effective, I agree).

Bella_bee: I looked at your graphs and the comments that others made. I do agree with the other posters that the graphs don't show that vaccinations were effective or not, just that there was a natural decrease of measles. I was the one who asked about smallpox, actually -- but to stop the debate (LOL!); the incidences in the philippines at 1% mortality (very early post of yours) refer to the lesser 'smallpox' minor variant, the 30-35% mortality I quoted referred to the major smallpox (which has been eradicated by the smallpox vaccination programme over the past two hundred years). 

um.....my head hurts now -- you all wrote over 10 pages since last night!

best wishes


----------



## x_Rainbow_x

Firstly Littleboo why not discuss with your gp. Air your concerns and see what he/she can recommend. You may come to a mutual agreement on what you feel more comfortable with for your LO.

secondly... all this autistic talk. correct me if im wrong but autism is either genetic or or triggered by a trait carried in the genes. Hence why if you have autism in your family it can be passed on. You dont just get autism. and im pretty it sure it wouldnt just turn on like a light. There arent enough cases or evidence to throw that in there. If you seriously believe all the autism can be caused by the MMR then thats something to talk to your dr about yourselves. throwing it in a open forum full of new mums its awful and scary. 

But yeah back to Littleboo. you find all all the facts first and make a decision based on whats best for your LO 
xx


----------



## AimeeM

Dk1234 said:


> CMarie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> joshiesmum said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jaylynne said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> joshiesmum said:
> 
> 
> Both mine have had all their vaccines. i personally think its irresponsible to not vaccinate your kids. i know alot of people will be annoyed by that statement but im a nurse and it is just comnon sense to me. id also be annoyed if i found out unvaccinated kids were around mine. not trying to offend anyone just my opinion x
> 
> This is exactly why I'm so passionate about it. Because others choices not to vaccinate can affect my children.Click to expand...
> 
> :-D i know in my sons school the children have to be vaccinated or else they cant be accepted. i struggle to understand why parents put there childs life at riskby not v accinating :-( it worries me xxxClick to expand...
> 
> Because those of us who don't vaccinate believe we put our children's life more at risk if we do vaccinate ;)Click to expand...
> 
> *I know autism is horrible and it scares me to death.* And also getting sick from a vaccine is awful to but isn't death from a whole host of diseases a worse risk????? How is the risk of vaccinating worse????Click to expand...

Sorry but I just have to comment on this. Really, Autism isn't horrible. Upsetting and challenging maybe but people with Autism are still people, unique people.


----------



## kaths101

Jack is to have his MMR today...I still don't know what to do! I think i will wait as someone else said theres no going back once it's in and there's still something niggling me. He's only 13 months so can wait for a few more months anyway.. 15 months was when it used to be anyway?? 

Its not the statistics/charts etc that are effecting me it's real people's stories..the ones where they say he changed overnight, decline in speech etc etc :nope: there's loads so it can't just be co-incidence? 

I don't know what to do!


----------



## Ozzieshunni

Remember though, people tend to hear about the bad stories 99% of the time. My son was absolutely fine after the MMR.


----------



## SabrinaKat

My head (and eyes) had a chance to recover, so....

I wanted to post this about whooping cough, which is from the BBC (the recent outbreak):

www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-19013016

side effects of mumps (I think somebody mentioned earlier):

www.livestrong.com/article/32231-side-effects-mumps/

as for delaying the mmr (which I am thinking about doing), Robert Sears (son of William and Martha Sears), a well-respected pediatrician, deals with this in great deal, with loads of research to make very informed decisions: 

www.askdrsears.com/topics/vaccines/inside-vaccine-book

I am curious about those who are delaying the mmr....EDIT: actually found a previous thread here in BnB, which says the reason for delay after 15 months is that the measles part is more effective...

babyandbump.momtastic.com/.../482003-why-you-choosing-delay-...(the link doesn't seem to work, but mummyof3co wrote):

"In the national outbreak of measles during the late 1980's and early 1990's, it also became apparent that children who had been vaccinated before 15 months of age were also at risk for vaccine failure, especially if their mothers had recovered naturally from measles disease as children. An MMR vaccine manufacturer states "Infants who are less than 15 months of age may fail to respond to the measles component of the vaccine due to presence in the circulation of residual measles antibody of maternal origin, the younger the infant, the lower the likelihood of seroconversion." "

am tired again, now!

best wishes


----------



## Dk1234

AimeeM said:


> Dk1234 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CMarie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> joshiesmum said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jaylynne said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> joshiesmum said:
> 
> 
> Both mine have had all their vaccines. i personally think its irresponsible to not vaccinate your kids. i know alot of people will be annoyed by that statement but im a nurse and it is just comnon sense to me. id also be annoyed if i found out unvaccinated kids were around mine. not trying to offend anyone just my opinion x
> 
> This is exactly why I'm so passionate about it. Because others choices not to vaccinate can affect my children.Click to expand...
> 
> :-D i know in my sons school the children have to be vaccinated or else they cant be accepted. i struggle to understand why parents put there childs life at riskby not v accinating :-( it worries me xxxClick to expand...
> 
> Because those of us who don't vaccinate believe we put our children's life more at risk if we do vaccinate ;)Click to expand...
> 
> *I know autism is horrible and it scares me to death.* And also getting sick from a vaccine is awful to but isn't death from a whole host of diseases a worse risk????? How is the risk of vaccinating worse????Click to expand...
> 
> Sorry but I just have to comment on this. Really, Autism isn't horrible. Upsetting and challenging maybe but people with Autism are still people, unique people.Click to expand...

I wasn't saying that they aren't people. But I don't think anyone would wish autism on their child. Sorry if you don't think it's horrible but personally I do. Just the same as a heart defect or a missing limb or anything else that would hinder your child. Autism hinders them in one or more of three different categories. Children with autism are still wonderful and yes it is very challenging. But I don't think any of us would wish for our children to be affected socially, in communication, or in their imagination.


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## StaceyKor

Dk1234 said:


> AimeeM said:
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> Both mine have had all their vaccines. i personally think its irresponsible to not vaccinate your kids. i know alot of people will be annoyed by that statement but im a nurse and it is just comnon sense to me. id also be annoyed if i found out unvaccinated kids were around mine. not trying to offend anyone just my opinion x
> 
> This is exactly why I'm so passionate about it. Because others choices not to vaccinate can affect my children.Click to expand...
> 
> :-D i know in my sons school the children have to be vaccinated or else they cant be accepted. i struggle to understand why parents put there childs life at riskby not v accinating :-( it worries me xxxClick to expand...
> 
> Because those of us who don't vaccinate believe we put our children's life more at risk if we do vaccinate ;)Click to expand...
> 
> *I know autism is horrible and it scares me to death.* And also getting sick from a vaccine is awful to but isn't death from a whole host of diseases a worse risk????? How is the risk of vaccinating worse????Click to expand...
> 
> Sorry but I just have to comment on this. Really, Autism isn't horrible. Upsetting and challenging maybe but people with Autism are still people, unique people.Click to expand...
> 
> I wasn't saying that they aren't people. But I don't think anyone would wish autism on their child. Sorry if you don't think it's horrible but personally I do. Just the same as a heart defect or a missing limb or anything else that would hinder your child. Autism hinders them in one or more of three different categories. Children with autism are still wonderful and yes it is very challenging. But I don't think any of us would wish for our children to be affected socially, in communication, or in their imagination.Click to expand...

Personally, I dont think u had to justify that statement hun. You in no way implied that autistic children arent people and I dont know how the other poster managed to jump to the conclusion. I would also fear my child having autism, and as you said any other condition that may hinder her way of life. I dont think what you said sounded derogatory at all xx


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## SabrinaKat

I'd also be worried that by not vaccinating, I would be putting people with already compromised immune systems at risk, e.g. measles might not be dangerous for my healthy LO, but what about other children/adults who have weakened immune systems? That would be awful.

I think, however, I will be delaying the MMR until 15 months. I noticed that it's on a somewhat different schedule around the world, and would be curious amongst BnBers here, when is it scheduled in YOUR country? In Ireland, it's 12 months (but I've already told the nurse that I want to wait until 15 months)....anybody else?

best wishes


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## xemmax

It's incredibly offensive to compare autism to a missing limb. People with autism are not missing something, or incomplete, they are just different to what is considered 'normal'. 

Most importantly I don't think it's wise at all to talk about autism as a whole in this way, it is a HUGE spectrum. I know two brothers with autism - one who you would likely not even know was autistic if you spoke to him, and one who is has severe impairments in all areas and has never spoken a word. The first attends a mainstream school and the second regularly goes to respite care. How can we talk about them in the same breath when their behaviour, personality, condition and requirements are SO different?


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## Dk1234

Back to the graphs, vaccines don't always prevent every incidence of a disease but it helps you fight it. Also, a PP is correct when only 1% of the populaion doesn't have a vaccine and they are contracting the disease 44% of the time, that is still very statistically relevant. These graphs don't support your line of thinking. But hinestly even if their we're more information they still don't explain why not vaccinating is better. No one is saying vaccines are the answer to everything and 100% perfect and effective. It's about minimizing risks, and about what's best for the whole of society, not the individual. Yes, some have allergies or adverse reactions but does a minut percentage of adverse reactions outweigh the millions of lives saved and the increase in life expectancy? Not in my opinion and I can't see why it would in anyone's. delaying vaccines makes sense to me completely, you have to do what your guy tells you. How anyone's gut can tell you to ignore vaccines completely, I just don't understand. 

Also can we go back to there is a disease or virus coming that all of the vaccinated people are going to be too weak to fight????? Seriously? Is this why you aren't vaccinating??? Sounds like science fiction.


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## Jaylynne

My ped is fine delaying til 15 months and his "book and office visit information" has it as a range from 12-15 months


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## SabrinaKat

xemmax -- I am positive nobody here meant to offend. YOU have personal experience, many of us here don't. It is the fear of the unknown that worries many of us, and I think the poster meant that with a physical (obvious) problem, it is that autism is not so obvious and more challenging, I think?

best wishes


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## Dk1234

xemmax said:


> It's incredibly offensive to compare autism to a missing limb. People with autism are not missing something, or incomplete, they are just different to what is considered 'normal'.
> 
> Most importantly I don't think it's wise at all to talk about autism as a whole in this way, it is a HUGE spectrum. I know two brothers with autism - one who you would likely not even know was autistic if you spoke to him, and one who is has severe impairments in all areas and has never spoken a word. The first attends a mainstream school and the second regularly goes to respite care. How can we talk about them in the same breath when their behaviour, personality, condition and requirements are SO different?

I apologize if I have offended you. It isn't meant to be a direct comparison, but merely a statement that autism effects their life negatively. I do not know personally anyone with autism so perhaps I don't understand it and certainly don't understand it like you. I'm not saying they are missing something but isn't the whole definition of autism is a spectrum of diseases that negatively effect some areas of their life??? Missing a limb or having a heart defect would hinder the way they live their life, the way I understand it so would any form of autism. Some more and some less. And in some ways other areas aren't effected or are enhanced. I stand by my statement it is something I wish to avoid.


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## StaceyKor

Dk1234 said:


> Back to the graphs, vaccines don't always prevent every incidence of a disease but it helps you fight it. Also, a PP is correct when only 1% of the populaion doesn't have a vaccine and they are contracting the disease 44% of the time, that is still very statistically relevant. These graphs don't support your line of thinking. But hinestly even if their we're more information they still don't explain why not vaccinating is better. No one is saying vaccines are the answer to everything and 100% perfect and effective. It's about minimizing risks, and about what's best for the whole of society, not the individual. Yes, some have allergies or adverse reactions but does a minut percentage of adverse reactions outweigh the millions of lives saved and the increase in life expectancy? Not in my opinion and I can't see why it would in anyone's. delaying vaccines makes sense to me completely, you have to do what your guy tells you. How anyone's gut can tell you to ignore vaccines completely, I just don't understand.
> 
> Also can we go back to there is a disease or virus coming that all of the vaccinated people are going to be too weak to fight????? Seriously? Is this why you aren't vaccinating??? Sounds like science fiction.

Hehe it does sound lime science fiction! Its an impossibility that vaccinated people ONLY would be effected. I hate to say it, but if a supervirus does emerge that no-one has ever encountered we would all be for it. Unvaccinated people certainly would not be safe. Do people think those who have no vaccines have some sort of super inmune system capable of fighting everything? As previously stated, if you have never been exposed to something, you have no immunity. Our bodies dont just randomly create antibodies to fight off random proteins that may attack!!xx


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## Dk1234

I think some people need to take a course in human biology.


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## staralfur

I don't think anyone is trying to be mean or dismissive about autism. 

Dk, I have a cousin who is severely autistic and I took no offense to your comments. :hugs:


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## Jaylynne

If someone has natural immunity it is due to a genetic trait. Quite interestingly, there have been studies done that correlate a percentage of potential bubonic plague survivors and their decendents that have a genetic mutation that causes a lack of receptor on immune system cells that allows AIDS virus to "land". Essentially they have natural immunity which is pretty darn cool. 

It is genetic, not caused by a vaccine or lack thereof. 
https://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=19980510&slug=2749873


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## Dk1234

Honestly I meant no offense. I mean its a real possibility my son cloud be autistic. For 1 he is a male and 2 the statistics are so high. I'll deal with that should it arise. I would love him no less and see him as no less a person. However, should he lose a limb, I wouldn't see him as less of a person either and love him no less. Maybe that's where the comparison came from, My desire for him to live an easy life with no issues (impossible I know) but my ability to love him no matter what issues he does face. Its a scary world, autism, measles, murderers, rapists. We are all just trying to protect our children and although I don't understand everyone's choices, I think I respect your intentions.


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## Jaylynne

P.s., my cousin is autistic and has had a lot of trouble with bullying at school because he is able to take special classes but not a part of the general school population. He is not severe, but it is very noticeable. I think the vast majority of parents would want their kids to have the best possible advantages and would avoid causing autism if such a thing were actually possible.


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## aliss

Being pro-vax, I can *understand* those who feel that vaccines are not 100% safe and are worried about them. That's fair and reasonable. I cannot understand however, those who continue to deny that vaccines make a lick of difference on certain diseases. To me, that is just as ridiculous as certain other historical denials which defy logic. 

I'm afraid the internet has done just as much bad as good in this world, I am simply amazed at what some people believe just because it is written online. There are a few neutral sources out there which present good arguments, but much of which is posted is often written by people with no real credentials, or worse, misrepresented credentials, and hysterical at best (and I don't mean haha hysterical).


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## xemmax

I accept that you meant no offense but I think there are huge misconceptions about autism and a lot of ignorance surrounding it, and that is what leads to offense being taken. I know mothers with children who have autism who would not change them for the world if given the option, and do not fear further children being diagnosed with autism. Of course this depends on the person and the severity and I am not for a second saying that any parent would wish their child to be autistic, but it isn't necessarily a life sentence which many see it as. For many it is just a definition of their personality, particularly for higher functioning autism.

Don't get me wrong - I have witnessed how difficult it is to have a child with severe impairments, particularly as they grow into adulthood, and I know children who will never live independently or be able to function within society, and it is incredibly sad. But their autism is part of who they are.


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## Irish Eyes

My nephew has a form of autism and lived with me for the first year of his life as my sister had trouble accepting him. He wasn't actually diagnosed until he was 3 but he has numerous other issues which are common in autistic children (severe club foot and joint problems) from birth. I don't love him any less, in fact I'm far more protective over him. But do I wish he didn't have it, hell yeah! I see him watching other children running and he can't join in, as he's getting older he is getting more and more into his own world and it's heartbreaking to know he won't hit the milestones you always wish for. 

I know his case has nothing to do with the jab but I'm no longer a parent that thinks along the lines of autism is a better alternative to measles etc. I personally have no idea if immunisations are a positive thing. I have seen first hand an extreme reaction to the MMR jab in my brother who had to re-learn speaking and walking. I am terrified that ingredients I know nothing about are being pumped into my tiny baby and I am terrified what could happen without them. 

it's another horrible decision placed in the hands of all parents who are only trying to do what's best for their own babies


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## Bella_Bee

DK1234 - It illustrates that the measles vaccine was not responsible for the dramatic drop in mortality rates and shows what the mortality rate is amongst the unvaccinated, at the very most. No, it doesn't, specifically, demonstrate that vaccines are worse than diseases but it is inferred given that mortality rates are so low and the studies showing the potential effects of the vaccine, long term. 

I can come back with more on vaccine injury rates, however, and information on measles complications also.

Jaylynne - the graphs demonstrate mortality rates, not rates of infection (this is what the census shows). A similar graph is availble through an nhs website, which I will attempt to locate later on. Interestingly, rates of infection remained pretty much the same as mortality rates dropped. After the introduction of the vaccine, rates of infection declined and mortality rates remained pretty much the same. At best, that seems pretty pointless, at worst it's robbing a large chunk of people of natural immunity, the amazing boost to the immune system of having recovered and putting them at risk of vaccine injury.

Somebody else (sorry I have forgotten your name) mentioned smallpox. I will be back with more on this, though I did not mention a mortality rate lower than 10% - assuming it wasn't a typo?


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## Bella_Bee

Just read back. I will also be back with vaccine uptake, info on mumps and also whooping cough. 

I'd appreciate people dialing down their aggression a notch, mind.


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## Bella_Bee

SabrinaKat said:


> I'd also be worried that by not vaccinating, I would be putting people with already compromised immune systems at risk, e.g. measles might not be dangerous for my healthy LO, but what about other children/adults who have weakened immune systems? That would be awful.
> 
> I think, however, I will be delaying the MMR until 15 months. I noticed that it's on a somewhat different schedule around the world, and would be curious amongst BnBers here, when is it scheduled in YOUR country? In Ireland, it's 12 months (but I've already told the nurse that I want to wait until 15 months)....anybody else?
> 
> best wishes

I'd feel awful if I knew that somebody had caught measles from my child and died, absolutely. I think it would stay with me forever. But I'd physically shove that person off a bridge rather than risk any harm to my own child, to be frank.


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## Bella_Bee

I am also interested to know why people would trust that doctors, governments and healthy officials alike know what they are talking about, have our best interests at heart but don't realise that waiting until 15 months is important?

I'm also interested to know why any Dr Sears (I'm a fan of some of their work, but they are all constantly discredited) would be respectable with their .com sites but others would not? Perhaps that they are, in some form, endorsing vaccination?


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## Jaylynne

US drs for the vast majority accept a 12-15 month mmr age range.


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## Bella_Bee

Dk1234 said:


> Also can we go back to there is a disease or virus coming that all of the vaccinated people are going to be too weak to fight????? Seriously? Is this why you aren't vaccinating??? Sounds like science fiction.

Does it? 

We know that recovery from illness, which occurs for the vast majority, is fantastic for the immune system and leaves it stronger than before. Most childhood illnesses do this. Then, that natural immunity is passed on to some degree from mother to baby making the illness less serious. Vaccines do not strengthen the immune system. They do not help the mother to pass on immunity.

Those with weaker immune systems are more susceptible to disease.

I'm not saying that superbug10000 is on the way, but a virulent flu is not unlikely at all and the immunocompromised will be first to go, followed by those with weakened immune systems before they get the chance to rattle off yet another pointless vaccine.

The stronger your immune system is, the more likely you will be to survive it.

That's what I want for my children. To be strong and healthy in their own right, to have a reduced risk of SIDS, cancer, asthma and to be stand a chance of fighting off a nasty virus if it should happen in their lifetime. It's not a guarantee but I want them to be in with as strong a chance as possible.


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## Ozzieshunni

Jaylynne said:


> US drs for the vast majority accept a 12-15 month mmr age range.

So do UK doctors.


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## Bella_Bee

Jaylynne said:


> US drs for the vast majority accept a 12-15 month mmr age range.

Sure, but most are called up at 12m. Why not at 15m+ ?


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## Frooty

I don't think they go on age just think cos theres so many babies they do a bunch at a time.


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## Natsku

Here they give the MMR between 14-18 months depending on when your child goes for their doctor check up (the previous municipality I lived in did the visit at 15 months but the one I live in now does it at 18 months) 

(Maria had hers done at 12 months though because we were travelling to the UK so the nurse suggested swapping it with one of the vaccinations normally done at 12 months as there is a lower uptake on the vaccine in the UK and therefore more risk of getting one of the diseases - vaccine uptake is very high here I think)

Hmm just googled it actually and I found an abstract claiming that indigenous MMR diseases were eliminated in Finland by the mid 90s due to high vaccination coverage, and since then there hasn't been any outbreaks (just a few cases, but not proper outbreaks) here's the link https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20822347

Also here's an article written about a major study done in Finland studying adverse affects of the MMR https://www.medicine.ox.ac.uk/bandolier/band84/MMR.html not a single case of autism in 1.8 million people vaccinated in the study.


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## SabrinaKat

mea culpae -- it was a typo (I wrote 1%, meant to write 10%) on the smallpox in the philippines (shows that even the best of us (e.g. ME) wasn't paying attention)! but I found an interesting reason as to WHY the level of smallpox increased after innoculation: 

https://www.historytoday.com/.../great-smallpox-epidemic - United Kingdom. It was because the smallpox vaccination actually exposed people to smallpox, but ultimately with lower mortality: 'For reasons that elude scientists to this day, inoculated smallpox was in most cases much less virulent than the &#8216;natural&#8217; form of the disease. Survivors won lifelong immunity, just as they would from &#8216;natural&#8217; smallpox, but mortality was notably lower.' (put smallpox into the search engine and the article comes up)

I just ordered the vaccine book (the sears one I mentioned), will let you all know what I think...

best wishes


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## AimeeM

StaceyKor said:


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> Both mine have had all their vaccines. i personally think its irresponsible to not vaccinate your kids. i know alot of people will be annoyed by that statement but im a nurse and it is just comnon sense to me. id also be annoyed if i found out unvaccinated kids were around mine. not trying to offend anyone just my opinion x
> 
> This is exactly why I'm so passionate about it. Because others choices not to vaccinate can affect my children.Click to expand...
> 
> :-D i know in my sons school the children have to be vaccinated or else they cant be accepted. i struggle to understand why parents put there childs life at riskby not v accinating :-( it worries me xxxClick to expand...
> 
> Because those of us who don't vaccinate believe we put our children's life more at risk if we do vaccinate ;)Click to expand...
> 
> *I know autism is horrible and it scares me to death.* And also getting sick from a vaccine is awful to but isn't death from a whole host of diseases a worse risk????? How is the risk of vaccinating worse????Click to expand...
> 
> Sorry but I just have to comment on this. Really, Autism isn't horrible. Upsetting and challenging maybe but people with Autism are still people, unique people.Click to expand...
> 
> I wasn't saying that they aren't people. But I don't think anyone would wish autism on their child. Sorry if you don't think it's horrible but personally I do. Just the same as a heart defect or a missing limb or anything else that would hinder your child. Autism hinders them in one or more of three different categories. Children with autism are still wonderful and yes it is very challenging. But I don't think any of us would wish for our children to be affected socially, in communication, or in their imagination.Click to expand...
> 
> Personally, I dont think u had to justify that statement hun. You in no way implied that autistic children arent people and I dont know how the other poster managed to jump to the conclusion. I would also fear my child having autism, and as you said any other condition that may hinder her way of life. I dont think what you said sounded derogatory at all xxClick to expand...

Well would you say Down Syndrome is horrible? I presume not? Same kind of statement in my eyes.


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## SabrinaKat

_Well would you say Down Syndrome is horrible? I presume not? Same kind of statement in my eyes._

NOBODY is saying that! Please don't think that at all! We're just exploring vaccination, MMR and everybody's very real worries, both pro-and anti-!

best wishes


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## AimeeM

No but it is the same kind of generalisation. To a mother of an autistic child anyway.


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## Jaylynne

Would you honestly (as if you could pick) say you would want your baby to have downs before having children?


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## AimeeM

Your child is you child and are as they are. I will take what I am given. I have a cousin who has Downs and can hand on heart say that it wouldn't matter to me my child having Downs.


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## Dk1234

I've apologized and tried to explain myself. And I'm sorry if it sounds bad but yes I would consider Down syndrome as horrible. Maybe I'm using horrible as the wrong word but I was scared to death to find out at my ultrasound that he might have downs markers. This isn't to say I would live him less but his life would be harder and I wouldn't want that. I wouldn't have terminated my pregnancy and I wouldn't even risk an amnio but I would have viewed it as horrible had he had Down's syndrome. I don't mean this to offend people. And children with autism and downs are perfect I'm sure but their life is harder and no one would want difficulties for their children I'm sure.


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## AimeeM

I suppose it it just a fear of the unknown. These things though I can assure you are nothing to be afraid of :)


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## Dk1234

Of course most everyone will take what they are given and live them the same but isn't it everyone's wish for a healthy bike body and mind??? Let me share this and maybe you'll understand me more. My family has a genetic disorder that effects vision and is unable to be corrected completely with glasses. My deceased father had it and One of my brothers and I have it. I couldn't even drive a car until I was 24 and I have to have a special set of glasses. Mine isn't as bad but I'm scared to death I've passed it to my son. Of course he wouldn't be horrible but the disorder is and I would be devestated if I have passed it on. His life will be harder and I just want only happiness and goodness for him.


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## AimeeM

Of course you want a healthy child. Just these things aren't the be all and end all. Well not to me but maybe to some :shrug:


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## Ozzieshunni

Okay, maybe just let it be now? Dk apologized. No need to continue to drag it out.


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## Dk1234

Just because something is horrible doesn't mean it's the end all be all.


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## lhancock90

My sister is on the autistic spectrum.
Some days are a nightmare but shes still, pretty much, a normal kid.
& i would sure as hell take autism over mumps, measles or rubella and the complications they can have.
I delayed Evelyns till 15 minutes because of the mothers immunity issue but shes had it :)


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## Snoopee

Don't you all have young children? How on earth do you have enough time for this???


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## Ozzieshunni

Snoopee said:


> Don't you all have young children? How on earth do you have enough time for this???

Ummm, rude much?


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## lhancock90

Snoopee said:


> Don't you all have young children? How on earth do you have enough time for this???

I do this whilst my kids run havoc, playing in the street and setting fire to stuff. :thumbup:


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## Snoopee

Spend less time on your computer and do something more stimulating with your children..l


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## Ozzieshunni

While he's napping? Oooops, wait, mine is in the street with hancock's LOs. Crap.


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## StaceyKor

Snoopee said:


> Don't you all have young children? How on earth do you have enough time for this???

Clearly we multi-task well :winkwink:x


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## StaceyKor

Snoopee said:


> Spend less time on your computer and do something more stimulating with your children..l

Thats so judgemental...its silly comments like that which will cause arguments and cause a thread to eventually be locked! If you dont wish to participate in the thread why comment. We have been very reasonable and respectful of peoples opinions but yours will just antagonise people


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## lhancock90

Snoopee said:


> Spend less time on your computer and do something more stimulating with your children..l

You are so right.
You, a complete stranger, on an internet forum, who signed up like the rest of us, clearly have such a clear and brilliant insight into our lives and how we don't bother to stimulate our kids.
:thumbup:


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## Ozzieshunni

:coffee:


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## Lydiarose

i must admit i do somtimes wonder how certain members with very young children find the TIME to post on here most of the day? irelivent to the thread though!


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## Dk1234

Wow rude my baby isn't even 3 months old. He naps about 5 hours a day and my house is spotless right now. Why don't you do something more productive than coming in and saying such mean things. We are discussing a very important issue for our children.


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## SabrinaKat

Now, I DO think this thread will be locked....

As for me, my LO is having a nap. This morning, he had a two hour nap, so I had time to play on the computer!

sigh....


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## Lydiarose

haha i didnt mean it in a offensive way :)

My 2 nap most days and i do get chance to come on here then if i wanted too (ussualy not because im trying to wash bottles/make tea/clean) before the volcano errupts but some people tend to literally post ALL DAY,just a genuine question as some days i dont even get time to wash :haha:


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## lhancock90

I tend to leave the pc on and BnB open and just drift in and out during the day, so i may look constantly online but i'm only drfiting in and out when i can :)
At the moment though, were all ill and both kids are asleep after a bad night so i've got time 

x


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## SabrinaKat

HOWEVER, (clears throat).....back to the topic at hand! If there are side effects to vaccinations, e.g. a child gets the measles after having the MMR (or something similar), isn't it better to have a lesser form than the full-blown one? I always thought that that was what vaccination was, e.g. there is a minor form of the illness/disease in the injection and the baby/child's body produces the anti-bodies, and therefore, if they meet the disease in 'real life', their bodies are protected?

Therefore, it would make sense why there might be some (a very small amount) of children who go on to get that disease? Obviously, if it's your child, then no amount of statistics or NHS or non-vac sites (all we've quoted herein!) will matter?

just a thought....

best wishes

ps. agree with last posters -- today, I've been lucky regarding naps (and I even had time for a bath!)....


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## Snoopee

Some people's babies must nap a hell of a lot


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## aliss

Not to be a braggart but my toddler actually naps 3-4 hours per day! And considering I'm the size of a hippo right now, I'm skipping my workout to eat lunch and browse BnB ;)


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## Jaylynne

Snoopee said:


> Some people's babies must nap a hell of a lot

Stop trolling.


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## Irish Eyes

Snoopee said:


> Some people's babies must nap a hell of a lot

When they're young most people babies nap a hell of a lot

Seeing as you have absolutely nothing useful to add to a thread which for me personally has been very helpful then maybe you should just jog on and do something stimulating for your baby.


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## aliss

Yikes 20,000 posts in 3 years...? Okay, I admit it, I'm kind of a loser :(


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## Dk1234

I doubt people sit and stare at their computers duh I mean think logically. I have an iPhone and periodically I pull it up when I have a minute. It isn't hard to look at a phone here and there.


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## Lydiarose

lhancock90 said:


> I tend to leave the pc on and BnB open and just drift in and out during the day, so i may look constantly online but i'm only drfiting in and out when i can :)
> At the moment though, were all ill and both kids are asleep after a bad night so i've got time
> 
> x

Not you hun!!!!! :haha: xxxxxxxx


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## Jaylynne

We don't have to explain anything to an idiot who has nothing better to do than stir shit. What a low life.


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## Lydiarose

Jaylynne said:


> We don't have to explain anything to an idiot who has nothing better to do than stir shit. What a low life.

ok theres no need for that :)


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## Dk1234

I think I'm a more informed mother from this site and glad I utilize it. Now excuse me while I go off and stare at my sleeping baby for fear someone I dint know may judge me for not being stimulating enough. Not


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## lhancock90

aliss said:


> Not to be a braggart but my toddler actually naps 3-4 hours per day! And considering I'm the size of a hippo right now, I'm skipping my workout to eat lunch and browse BnB ;)


Lets swap children...:haha:



Lydiarose said:


> lhancock90 said:
> 
> 
> I tend to leave the pc on and BnB open and just drift in and out during the day, so i may look constantly online but i'm only drfiting in and out when i can :)
> At the moment though, were all ill and both kids are asleep after a bad night so i've got time
> 
> x
> 
> Not you hun!!!!! :haha: xxxxxxxxClick to expand...


:thumbup: Oh god, its just, i've been all over here and FB today i figured it must've looked bad..


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## Snoopee

At least everyone has been able to take a break from "debating" the mmr vacination. I can't actually see how anyone can honestly say it has been useful however. People on this sort of threat come on with their opinion and will not change it. For the most part I've seen nothing but bitching and making people feel bad. My real point was it's not really getting anywhere so why not do something more productive? :shrug:


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## SabrinaKat

If the baby is snoring, he's asleep, right? Oh, no! It's the cat -- due to my neglect of LO, he's now being mothered by the cat!

Jaylynne - the language! for shame! Come over here and let me wash your mouth out with soap!

best wishes

EDIT: the baby has just woken up, so must say...bye-bye! (Oh, wait, if I put the TV on, he'll be entertained, right?)

sadly, I do think this thread will be locked.....sigh. AND it was interesting, too!


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## x_Rainbow_x

How damn rude!!


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## AimeeM

OP, I would trust your motherly instincts on what is best for you regarding vaccines. I decided to wait with DS2 because my DS1 does have ASD and ADHD and I admit this did effect my decision for DS2 but also something inside told me not to.
I was glad I did wait because we found out that DS2 has an IgA and IgG deficiency and a live vaccine could be a problem for him. I believe my mothers instinct played an important role for me in my decision and I am really glad I didn't ignore it. 

On a side note I have read in the past that it was the live Polio vaccine that was more linked to bad side effects and lasting side effects and my DS1 did have a very bad reaction to it. The live version was replaced though some time ago so no need to worry about that one.


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## Jaylynne

Lydiarose said:


> Jaylynne said:
> 
> 
> We don't have to explain anything to an idiot who has nothing better to do than stir shit. What a low life.
> 
> ok theres no need for that :)Click to expand...

Fine, I'll retract the idiot and low life. But it's still unnecessary shit stirring :)


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## Jaylynne

SabrinaKat said:


> If the baby is snoring, he's asleep, right? Oh, no! It's the cat -- due to my neglect of LO, he's now being mothered by the cat!
> 
> Jaylynne - the language! for shame! Come over here and let me wash your mouth out with soap!
> 
> best wishes
> 
> EDIT: the baby has just woken up, so must say...bye-bye! (Oh, wait, if I put the TV on, he'll be entertained, right?)
> 
> sadly, I do think this thread will be locked.....sigh. AND it was interesting, too!

:haha::haha: haven't had that done in years :haha::haha:


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## SabrinaKat

:hugs:

off to corrupt the young....

bye!


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## aliss

https://weknowmemes.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/stay-at-home-mom-what-people-think-i-do1.jpg


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## aliss

And just so the working ladies don't feel left out...

https://fip.typepad.com/.a/6a00d83453be8869e20168e76ebd95970c-800wi


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## Jaylynne

LO is watching sprout tv in his swing. He woke up every hour last night which meant I have maybe an hour sleep total. Sprout is saving my sanity.


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## AP

Gone totally off topic now so thread closed!


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## Wobbles

This thread has been reviewed. 

The OP has requested this thread is reopened however the decision has been made to keep it locked. There are enough answers to the original question and as usual there are always a select few (not one member) who help close a thread down. 

Snoopee your posts were neither necessary or constructive. In the future I suggest you do not flame/troll threads again or your account is at risk. It's quite honestly none of your business what my members want to talk about and why they have the time to do so.


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