# Alternative Vaccine Schedule?



## sparkswillfly

Meadow has followed the NHS prescribed route so far but I have decided not to follow it any further. Was wondering if anyone else is doing the same?

What have you declined and what are you doing when?

Do you get hounded by health visitors?


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## lauriech

I've always been interested to know the pro's and con's of vaccinating/not vaccinating....can I ask what your reasons are? It's ok if you'd rather not say but it's a subject that interests me.

x


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## mommyof3co

I'm in the US so no HV but we do have a pediatrician. Landon was vaccinated on schedule...Casen we were more selective..he didn't have Hep A, flu, chicken pox...Hayden doesn't get vaccinated at all and neither do the other 2 anymore. 

We luckily have a very open minded pediatrician and she actually doesn't even give all the vaccines to her kids, but there are some she does but she respects our decision. We had to sign a paper showing that she told us about them and we refused..it said something along the lines of "I understand that by not vaccinating my child I'm putting them at risk for this this this and this including death" I marked out the "not" then signed it.


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## sparkswillfly

lauriech said:


> I've always been interested to know the pro's and con's of vaccinating/not vaccinating....can I ask what your reasons are? It's ok if you'd rather not say but it's a subject that interests me.
> 
> x

Basically I feel that theres just too many and theres too much uncertainty as to their safety. Sometimes they do more harm than good.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Truth-Abou...=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1252005567&sr=8-1

Heres a really good book that explains things quite well. The front cover makes it look a bit scare mongering but its actually really balanced and it explains about the diseases that the vaccines are supposed to protect. Its well referenced as well so you can see where he gets his information from.

The fact that there were dangerous levels of mercury in vaccines until as recently as 2004 doesnt fill me with confidence. Neither does the levels of aluminium still present in a lot of vaccines.

Edit: If you go private you can get polio and Hib vaccines which are aluminium free and you can also get a meningitis C vaccine that has less aluminium in it than the one offered at my GP. I also intend to go privately for the single measles vaccine. Im not giving her the MMR.


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## princess_bump

interesting thread sam :D maddi's had her's on to schedule, except mmr, which i delayed for a few months, she hasn't had it yet, as i wanted to give her a few extra months before having her mmr, especially as she had been poorly.

with regards to my gp surgery, they've been pretty useless and never bothered to mention it or even perform the routine checks on maddi! so no hounding by hv's from here x x


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## sparkswillfly

https://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1721109,00.html

The case of Hannah Poling is particularly interesting. It was admitted that vaccines injured her and were the cause of her Autism. She had a rare disorder that they say was aggravated by the vaccines, some doctors argue that the disorder may have come after the vaccines. It may have been rare but it shows there is still a link. And no one knows if their child is going to be one of the ones thats at risk of an adverse reaction. Therefore I feel like I need to do everything I can to minimise that risk. Its not just autism spectrum disorders either theres a whole host of things. By going private for some and omitting some completely I feel that Meadow will be better off in the long run.


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## Missy85

very interesting, definatley going to have a read!


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## lauriech

I'm quite surprised to read what I'm reading tbh Sam! Think I'll look into it now :thumbup:

Fab thread xxx


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## sparkswillfly

Some flu jabs still contain mercury but they are alternatives that dont.


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## lauriech

Does the book explain the dangers of being vaccinated and the dangers mercury etc has on the body at any age?


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## sparkswillfly

Yeah it explains the impact of mercury and aluminium on the body. It mainly focuses on the impact on babies and children.

There is a chapter on the HPV vaccine that I havent read yet. Which Im going to get around to because my sister is due to have that.


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## amelia222

Alice hasn't had any yet and I am really struggling to decide which, if any she will get. I definitely do not agree with the vaccine schedule here though. Vaccinating for 9 diseases at a time seems like too much, especially at 8 weeks old.


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## sparkswillfly

I think its too much as well. I was quite shocked to hear that a chicken pox vaccine was being introduced in the US. It seems a step too far


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## mommyof3co

Chicken pox is part of the normal routine, it's been around for quite a few years now...they have even upped it to 2 doses now


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## sparkswillfly

I thought it was a new thing for some reason. Whats the reasoning behind it?


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## mommyof3co

I honestly don't know...it's not like we had a super high death rate or anything crazy like that. I want to say it's been in the normal vaccine schedule since like 2001? So I guess fairly new compared to some others. Landon had one dose but never had the 2nd...I won't get it for any of them. There are quite a few side effects with it...many kids that get it get chicken pox from the actual shot..usually mild cases but not always.


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## amelia222

Chicken pox is a routine one in Canada too. What is vaccine schedule in UK? This is what they recommend here:
https://www.healthlinkbc.ca/immunization.stm


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## sparkswillfly

https://www.immunisation.nhs.uk/Immunisation_Schedule

This is it.


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## mommyof3co

Yeah I'm interested to see what it is in different places...here is ours for ages 0-6
https://cdc.gov/vaccines/recs/schedules/downloads/child/2009/09_0-6yrs_schedule_pr.pdf

I personally think it's an insane amount! I heard somewhere that we have the most vaccines given to babies


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## Pyrrhic

I'm not vaccinated bwahahaha! :rofl:

Its something I'm going to look into, but at the end of the day I do place a lot of trust into medical research and professional advice.


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## sparkswillfly

rafwife said:


> I'm not vaccinated bwahahaha! :rofl:
> 
> Its something I'm going to look into, but at the end of the day I do place a lot of trust into medical research and professional advice.

But there isnt much medical research to suggest they are safe thats the point. 

Mercury was in vaccines for 40 odd years before they realised how unsafe it was.

Theres actually no research on safety levels of aluminium in vaccines, but there is safety levels of it being ingested. Surely injecting something straight into your body is worse than eating it so why are there no safety levels? Why hasnt it been throughly researched?


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## sparkswillfly

Most of the medical profession are in agreement that more research needs to be done.


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## Pyrrhic

I meant research both ways, both for and against :)


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## sparkswillfly

rafwife said:


> I meant research both ways, both for and against :)

I read it as you put a lot of faith into GPs and department of health.


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## Linzi

princess_bump said:


> interesting thread sam :D maddi's had her's on to schedule, except mmr, which i delayed for a few months, she hasn't had it yet, as i wanted to give her a few extra months before having her mmr, especially as she had been poorly.
> 
> with regards to my gp surgery, they've been pretty useless and never bothered to mention it or even perform the routine checks on maddi! so no hounding by hv's from here x x

Exactly the same here, Seth is 15 months and we've not even had an appointment for his MMR, although Ive kind of made the decision to wait until he's at least 18 months anyway, because he's been poorly, is underweight and gets poorly very easily. If he had been healthy for the time he's been here then Id have done it on schedule I just feel that if he's a little older he might be able to deal with it better.

x


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## massacubano

I know it is a much debated subject. My son has autism so... for myself I am feeling extra anxiety... I mean it is still in question. However, who wants to risk their child... either way (get toxins or get polio so on).. know? its horrible ... really


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## Kitten

You're damned either way tbh. I know a lot of people who got sick with the mumps at uni because they didn't have the MMR and it was an uber epidemic and it was ridiculous. I personally have had all the vaccinations and it hasn't crossed my mind not to have them, if he ended up getting something I'd hate myself, but then equally if he got something from the vaccines I'd be just as devastated so it's a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" for me. I get the flu jab because getting the flu 4+ times a year really was starting to impact on my life and I ended up in the high dependency unit in hospital before they even suggested giving it to me and I have to admit I have never read the pros and cons and stuff of that vaccine. I figured I'm an "ignorance is bliss" kind of person when it comes to this stuff or I'd never make any decisions, lol, but I do think it's a parents right to choose.


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## princessellie

i really didnt want to get leylas injections done, in fact i posted on here about it but pretty much just got ''why wouldnt you want to do something that helps your baby'' responses, then felt like a shit mammy and got her injected! i sooo wish i hadnt now though, she is definitely not getting the mmr, paul wants her to get it but i just dont! im lucky with my HV, everytime ive aid to them i dont want her to get this, theyve said oh i'll send u this dvd and u can decide whether u want it done, i said last time cos she asked me about the mmr and i said no i dont think i want her to have it, then said god i bet your sick of me saying shes not having owt, and she said all we can do as parents is weigh out the pros and cons, noone really knows whats best, we have to work out whats best, so shes pretty good

x


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## sparkswillfly

princessellie said:


> ''why wouldnt you want to do something that helps your baby''
> x

I find that when people say stuff like that they generally dont have a clue what they are talking about.

Im not saying everyone should be anti vaccine but 99% of people just go ahead without a seconds thought. I was one of them. 

I had a few friends get mumps at uni aswell but it wasnt that bad and they got over it.


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## wishingonastar

i'm also very concerned about the vaccine schedule and i'm pretty peeved that they're taken away single vaccines for MMR...especially as I (and many other parents) would be willing to pay for the single doses :grr:

isabel is due her first vaccines in two weeks and i'm really unsure whether to do it or if there's alternative routes :(


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## mommyof3co

I agree, I think when you get responses like that people don't really know what they are talking about. I def don't think that everyone should just be against vaccines, people need to do the research for themselves and decide what is best for their family. While I agree to an extent with the damned if you do damned if you don't statement....with us we also took into consideration that yes while there are def risks on both sides what are the chances of each. The chances of them contracting many of these illnesses is actually very low...but the chances of them coming into contact with the toxins from the vaccines is 100% if I vaccinate...therefore increasing the risk of something happening in the first place. Then you take into consideration that the bad side effects from the diseases they may or may not come into contact with...how high is the rate of that. For us that was alot of what made our decision for us. I was def one that went into it blind and just followed the recommendations with Landon, I had no clue no one didn't vaccinate, really had no idea there were real side effects...knew next to nothing about them, that information should be told just as much as the benefits of the vaccines so everyone can make a balanced choice


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## wishingonastar

thanks for the book link sam...i've now ordered it :)


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## princess_bump

i have to say i researched all the vaccinations when pregnant, and actually studied the mmr and autism link at uni, especially with regards to the government's and media's stance, and i have found choosing to give maddi mmr a really hard choice. what i was most angry with is the fact you cannot now get the single mumps vaccine. i was all set to pay for maddi's single mmr at a private clinic locally to us, but they have now stopped this as they are no longer producing the mums vaccine, i find this disgusting as i feel it takes away a parents right to choose, i, supposedly do not live in a dictatorship, so why is there such an obviously push towards to the triple mmr?

anyhow, after much soul searching and plenty of research maddi's is booked, all i can say is i hope i can be confident in my decision, and like us all, i just want the best for my baby xx


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## reallytinyamy

princess_bump said:


> i have to say i researched all the vaccinations when pregnant, and actually studied the mmr and autism link at uni, especially with regards to the government's and media's stance, and i have found choosing to give maddi mmr a really hard choice. what i was most angry with is the fact you cannot now get the single mumps vaccine. i was all set to pay for maddi's single mmr at a private clinic locally to us, but they have now stopped this as they are no longer producing the mums vaccine, i find this disgusting as i feel it takes away a parents right to choose, i, supposedly do not live in a dictatorship, so why is there such an obviously push towards to the triple mmr?
> 
> anyhow, after much soul searching and plenty of research maddi's is booked, all i can say is i hope i can be confident in my decision, and like us all, i just want the best for my baby xx

I'm with you Carly, studied it at uni as I was specialising in autism at the time of "the" scare and I hav decided that Chloe will be having it. 

This, for me, has definitely been the hardest part of parenting so far. How do you know you've made the right decision, and god forbid you make the wrong one. :shrug: I hate knowing a few months/years down the line I could be beating myself up for making this decision, but the same goes for the other way too!


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## sparkswillfly

I think Ive decided to only do measles as a single vacine rather than all 3. Im going to give Meadow Rubella when shes 12/13 if shes not already immune.

Im not sure what I would have done from birth. I think I would wait till 6 months to start them definitely.


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## wishingonastar

can measles still be bought as a single one???

god this is a mine field for me :(


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## princessellie

why are you getting her the measles one? is that one theat's most safe or is it the only one you can get individually?

x


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## sparkswillfly

You can get both measles and rubella seperately. Normally about £100 each. I mostly decided to get the measles one because of where we live. If we lived in the country somewhere I probably wouldnt get it. 

I think it is much safer than the MMR but Im still unsure. I need to look into it more.


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## Angel2Fire

Chaise has had his first ones but he's not having the MMR. His dad had a very bad reaction to the measles jab and I'm not risking the same happening to Chaise. 
Once Chaise is old enough he will be kept healthy by the food he eats and vitamins if needed. He will also be given a childs dose of echinacea to help strengthen his immune system for if he did get ill. 
A lot of people say I'm being selfish because if no one had their child vaccinated then there would be more illness around but thats not strictly true. If you are kept healthy you have a better chance of fighting off illness.
I don't get on with my HV anyway because I go by what I feel is best for my child and not what a textbook says.


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## PeanutBean

This is an interesting thread.

For Byron's first three lots we delayed them all by a few weeks so there was a bigger gap between and he was older when he had them. He was fine with them all and I'm glad I did it. It's a lot to take on for a small baby and he was a couple of weeks early so I wanted to compensate for that.

Is for the MMR I have no doubt about the absence of a link to autism and am surprised people are still discussing that when it is entirely refuted. Considering there still to be a link based on one kooky piece of rubbished research is not entirely logical though of course I understand people being concerned about their baby's safety. I am concerned about the MMR in terms of getting so much at once. I would prefer to go for the single vaccines but we won't be able to afford to do that. If we were getting the single vaccines I would still get them all. I've had mumps as a kid and it's mostly not a big deal however I don't think DH has had it and I would want both him and Byron to be protected by its damaging effects on men. For Rubella I am less concerned but if we have a girl in the future the same applies for the whole family's safety (not to mention others we comeinto contact with). As for Measles, well it is a critical time for the measles vaccination programme with measles moving towards eradication then people suddenly stopping the vaccination (because of that crap research and media scare) it's making a comeback and there's the risk now that it will be a stronger mutated form. Hm. I think it's important to progress with the measles jab in the hope of winning that particular battle. It's a bandwagon thing and with mass vaccination there comes a time when everyone needs to be on board, like with smallpox.

I didn't have the BCG (I'm the only person I know outside my family who doesn't have that scar on their arm) and I don't think I'll ahve my kids have it either. On principle I am for people getting illnesses and developing a strengthened immunity however I have to temper that stance with consideration for what society is doing and also how severe the illness can be.

Does that make sense? Bit of an essay! lol


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## Missy

I haven't had Sapphire vaccinated and at present do not intend to. As well as the possible risks I also have my doubts about how effective the vaccines actually are. They do not actually guarantee to protect against the disease. For example, measles had already declined by 99% by the time the vaccine was implemented. Where it is claimed that vaccination eliminated smallpox, only 10% of the population was ever vaccinated so how can the removal of the disease be attributed to vaccination? I agree that the subject is a minefield and I will continue to do my own research. Most of the diseases which vaccinations are offered for are rare, not life threatening and fully treatable if contracted so in those cases I believe the risks outweigh ay possible gain. I would prefer my LO's immune system to develop naturally and believe that this will be compromised by vaccination.Ultimately every parent's decision is personal but I do despair at parents who blindly trust the word of the health professionals/government and just go along with the herd on such an important issue ( as I admit I did with DD1) and I would urge everyone to make their own informed decisions. Call me a sceptic but I don't automatically swallow the theory that vaccinations are best for our babies and that is the sole motive behind mass innoculation. This link gives a bit of insight into my own personal reasons:
https://www.alternative-doctor.com/vaccination/16reasons.htm


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## ryder

PeanutBean said:


> This is an interesting thread.
> 
> Is for the MMR I have no doubt about the absence of a link to autism and am surprised people are still discussing that when it is entirely refuted. Considering there still to be a link based on one kooky piece of rubbished research is not entirely logical though of course I understand people being concerned about their baby's safety. I am concerned about the MMR in terms of getting so much at once. I would prefer to go for the single vaccines but we won't be able to afford to do that. If we were getting the single vaccines I would still get them all. lol

Totally agree... 

I think everyone is free to make their own choic and do their own research. However, you do have to seriously consider the effects on not only you child, but other children. 

Lets face it, I highly doubt any of us are going to lock ourselves and our away from other children. Which is the only effective way to prevent the spread of illness. 

How do people knwo what they are reading online is true? How do you know that the website wasn't created by some joe schmo guy who is a professional web designer?

They have done alot of research and its constantly resulted in there being no link to the shots and autism.


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## mommyof3co

Well I know as a parent I would never compromise my child or my beliefs for the "benefit" of someone else. To me vaccinating my child is endangering their life and health...so why would I do that? I'm very careful where I get my info, and I've also discussed it all with our pediatrician who respects our choice and is there to answer any further questions we may have on any of it. 

But as far as the autism thing goes, the CDC has even said they can NOT say for sure there is no link, they can't guarantee that either. Also I don't think money would have been awarded to the families with the claims if there was zero evidence. There has to be something there that we just aren't being told or something. I don't think that it would cause it in just any child, I think just certain kids but we can't predict who is more susceptible. But that being said, the autism part was a VERY small part in my decision, more like icing on the cake "they can't tell me for sure they won't have autism so that's enough for me"


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## ryder

Im sorry but to me, as a parent, it is our responsibility to protect EVERY child. I think it is extremely selfish to put other infants and children in danger... If you dont want to vaccinate your child against MMR... fine... but I dont think you have a right to put others in danger. 

Here are some good sites showing the mortality and injury rates of unvaccinated compared with vaccinated.... I havent been able to find anything that shows rates of vaccinated children getting autism though. If anyone can find it id love to see it....


https://www.ajph.org/cgi/reprint/75/7/739.pdf
https://www.economist.com/world/britain/displaystory.cfm?story_id=12725316


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## mommyof3co

I sure hope this doesn't turn into a debate....this section is for more natural parents and obviously many of us don't believe in the vaccines, we are discussing it without debate. We aren't pushing it on anyone and I don't appreciate it being pushed on me. If you don't agree that's fine, vaccinate your child, that's your choice, you believe in them and that's fine. But I will NEVER put another child over my own, they come first over any one else, I'm sorry if that sounds bad but I don't care, my kids come first all the time in any situation and I will never do something that I feel with all of my being is dangerous to them. My kids aren't putting any kids in danger, it's not like they carry these diseases along with them...and if you look at the rates of when these "outbreaks" happen soooo many of them, the majority in fact, are vaccinated, not unvaccinated children. Diseases come and go naturally, they naturally will spike up at certain times of the year, or every few years....it's not because of people choosing to not vaccinate. As someone said earlier, many of these diseases were already on the decline BEFORE vaccines were introduced.....these diseases aren't around as much anymore because the treatment is there to stop the spread, we have better sanitation and nutrition which also play a huge part. We know you believe in them...fine your choice. But please don't come in here putting down anything anyone else is saying, people are coming to this thread to find out the other side, the benefits of vaccines everyone knows it's thrown in your face everytime you go to the dr. It's kind of like going into the formula section and promoting breastfeeding....some of us natural moms dont believe in vaccines and we are discussing it, not looking for a debate or someone to come and tell us we are wrong. I have put countless hours of research and thought into my decision and it is RIGHT for us, I don't want to feel like I have to defend it even in here...a debate whatever, but that's not what this is.


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## Rachel_C

I'm all for vaccines but I don't want to have a debate about it! It's every parents' choice to make for themselves I think. I just find it really interesting hearing people's reasons why they do or don't vaccinate. 

One thing I've seen a lot of is that we're not being told something, that governments are hiding things from us. But I don't understand this :wacko: In the UK, it's a public health care system so the NHS isn't out to make any money from giving vaccines. I know the drug companies do, but the NHS itself doesn't. So why would they give vaccines if they don't work? And everything is assessed in a cost vs benefit way I think, so if for example they knew that the MMR caused autism, surely they would stop giving it? I would have thought that the cost of giving the jabs plus the cost of supporting families with autistic children would make them stop. Am I missing something really simple? :shrug:


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## PeanutBean

I agree with what Ryder said about internet sources of information. Also as Rachel_C says the NHS is not about deceiving the public as there is nothing to be gained from that so it's irrational to consider it plausible.

There are many sources of information on science and health related issues available online and many of them will be inaccurate or even misleading. The use of vaccines is expensive and there is nothing to be gained through mass vaccination if there is not any scientific evidence to back it up. All our research is publicly available and most of it publicly funded. The NHS is publicly funded and would not spend money on vaccinations if there was not substantial supporting evidence - consider the occasional news items from people who cannot get a rarely used drug that would possibly be their cure because the NHS cannot afford to supply it or because it has not yet been regulated for use in the UK by NICE.

Of course it's impossible to say that something will absolutely never ever cause something else. It's impossible to say for sure the sun will rise tomorrow as some extraordinary unforeseen astronomical event may take place destroying the earth or the sun or throwing out the orbits or something. There is no 100% certain in anything so it's silly to look for that. The way science works is to carry out empirical research and establish probability. The probability of MMR causing autism is enormously slight. There was one single piece of work that was massively flawed and generally not recognised by the scientific community that suggested the link in the first place and there has since been lots of research demonstrating no significance that there is a link. The link was first looked for because the first identifiable signs of autism tend to manifest around the same time as the MMR jab is given but a correlation by no means implies a cause.


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## wishingonastar

the thing is as has been shown in all sorts of things...the NHS chooses the cheapest route with lots of things due to cost involved, hence the government withdrawing single MMR jabs on NHS and then privately. The single jabs were too costly so despite it removing parents choice for the best thing for their child they did it for financial sake. Putting aside the autism queries, lets be honest lumping lots of serious diseases into one vaccine puts an immature, young immune system under a lot of strain. My little girl has her first multiple jabs coming up and it scares me to think of all of it going in her at once


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## wishingonastar

to also back up mummyof3's point, i don't appreciate people forcing their opinions on me that i MUST give my child a vaccine if i feel its detrimental to their health for the 'sake of the greater good'. If i did so against my researched judgement and then in years to come more research came to light and the government says 'oops we got it wrong' and it shows it was the wrong choice to make then i'd feel like the worst parent in the world. As a parent you must go with research and gut instinct and act in the interests of your child and not do what others simply feel you must do - its your child so your decision, no one elses


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## PeanutBean

I totally agree that it is too much pressure on a young immune system, as I mentioned in my first post I would also like to get the single jabs for this reason but can't afford to. I think with the NHS they will of course do what is most cost effective but I believe that if there was a significant difference between the full MMR and individual jabs in terms of detrimental effect then the individual jabs would be given. Also, I think a part of the issue is that a number of parents get very upset about the jabs and after the first one won't go back so by giving all three together it means a more effective vaccination programme.

I do appreciate Ryder's point though about considering others' children. I do think we have a responsibility to all people (not just children) to do the best for them we are able and to consider them in our decisions. After all, in this case, we all put into the bill and we all have to share the same space. It's no good complaining about people not washing their hands or coughing and sneezing all over the place when they have a cold if we don't consider others in our choices about vaccination. I think she has shown a valid side of the argument that ought to be considered when making decisions. I think this applies to all walks of life not just health.


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## mommyof3co

Well I agree to a point with Ryder, sure you have to take other people into consideration to a point, not to the detriment of my own kids though, kwim? I would never do something to intentionally harm someone else, BUT I'm not going to put my kids in danger for the "benefit" of someone else, especially if I don't believe there is even a benefit. Does that make sense? lol

My whole point of my posts though was that it's not a debate, not this thread anyways, it was just a discussion for people that do choose not to vaccinate or do on a different schedule, or people that are interested to find info....not for people to come tell us what we are doing isn't right kwim? I mean the info is all over the place showing why you should, pretty much everyone knows that side, that just wasn't what the thread was about, atleast in the beginning.


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## wishingonastar

^^^ agree with above :)


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