# Selfish...



## PeanutBean

Just a little moan or something, I'm not sure what. I've read a few things round the forum that have more or less subtly expressed the notion of mums wanting a better birth experience as being selfish. I can't really say how but it's sort of bothering me a bit.

Of course we would do anything to have healthy babies. But healthy babies and happy mums don't have to be mutually exclusive. :growlmad:


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## chuck

The whole 'you should be grateful' thing really grates with me too, We are incredibly lucky to have healthy babies but wanting a happy birth is far from selfish.


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## PeanutBean

It's like any suggestion out of the ordinary is automatically taken as some risk to baby for the benefit of the mother as if the two of us are connected. Usually also said by people who have done zero research with complete confidence.


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## chuck

It doesnt matter so long as you get a healthy baby....ergh said by women who don't expect any better and women who shut up and put up with what was pushed at/into them and think that all interventions are done for the good of the baby - labour is agony what do you expect kind of people.

As I see it now the better the experience the happier the Mummy the better for the baby in the long run.

Surely it can't be coincidence that PND rates are soaring along with interventions/CS rates?


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## PeanutBean

Exactly. I know we haven't had the same experience but I think you and I are peas in a pod as far as our personal journey goes for this labour. It's not possible to really say to others somehow, however rude their comments are. I want women to expect more but the last thing I want to do is make them feel bad about their own experience even if they're happy trying to make me feel bad about my plans...


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## Mervs Mum

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Dont let other people's baggage become yours. x


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## PeanutBean

They're not getting to me in the sense of making me feel any different about my own experience or hopes for this time. I just sometimes find it hard to bite my tongue.


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## nov_mum

I think there is still a large degree of "Dr is right and we must do what he says" mentality around. It is an old fashioned notion but is bred in to us from past generations. I have a friend who signed up for a section with an OB as soon as she found out she was pregnant. The OB cut her open as per the plan and handed her a baby telling her not to eat for 24-48 hours. Despite all of the midwives and her friend who was a NICU nurse telling her that it was a very old fashioned notion which does nothing for milk supply and is no longer recommended by most OBs and hospitals, she went along with it and said "I'm paying him 4k for this advice so I'm going to take it". 

My friend is a nurse and knows about good science but she also works in an area where Drs are god and you still stand by the bed while the doctor visits the patient and say nothing unless spoken to! You get what you pay for I guess


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## nov_mum

There is a big influence to do what the doctor says and anything else is plain stupid and selfish. If a doctor says you must be cut open and have your baby delivered now as Doctor has dinner plans then that is what happens and if you disagree they pull the old 'you are putting your baby at risk' I had two phone calls from an angry mw from a day clinic who told me I had to come in to hospital daily to have monitoring. I told her I would not be and she told me the Dr said I had to and that I was putting my baby at risk. When I asked her how I was putting him at risk (he was a very good size, placenta flow was awesome and protein in my wee was minimal, plus they chose not to medicate me for blood pressure) she had to concede that coming in daily as opposed to twice a week (which I had agreed to) would achieve nothing more, she backed down but told me the Dr wouldn't be happy. I assured her the Dr's happiness was not of my concern but the health of my baby and routine of my 15mth old was. She hung up.


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## PeanutBean

I don't understand why people don't want to think for themselves; to take responsibility for themselves. :shrug:


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## nov_mum

I guess they have been told for long enough that birthing is a medical intervention that frequently goes wrong. TV shows Drs delivering babies in hospitals. My mother was horrified I was being cared for by a MW and no Dr. Women are told at every step that we don't know how to birth and nurture. We are marketed to by so many companies 'helping us make the right choices', then we have the social status of prams, nappy brands and designer clothes. Fancy cots, travel systems and countless amounts of 'safety gear'. If all women (aside from those that do need medical intervention) had normal births and breast fed, maternity would be a very poor business sector. Hahahaha


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## nov_mum

Gosh, I really am in a bit of a ranting mood today but I wanted to add that women who want to have some input in to their births often get labeled as 'control freaks' who are hippy and anti medicine. Then comes the snide remarks from drs and mothers too unfortunately that 'no one gives you a medal' for pushing a baby out with no drugs etc. I try to explain that it really isn't about what everyone thinks about and your birth, it is actually to do with what you, yourself, experiences. 

I always say that I did get two medal actually. They are two gorgeous boys who remind me every day how it was all worth it. Without a natural birth with my first, he would have definitely ended up in NICU. A vaginal birth allowed his lungs and other organs to be prepared for life on the outside. A 35 week baby needs all the help he can get and a pile of meds via mum and then removal by section would have seen him on breathing support.


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## PeanutBean

But it is a bit different in the uk as mw-led care is the norm and we don't pay at point of use. I dunno. Just grrrr.


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## special_kala

I think some people think im selfish for wanting a HB but i dont see how i am in the slightest.

With River i had a epidural and a fair amount of intervention. She poo'ed in my waters after becoming distressed and i put alot of that on my hospital birth.

She was very very unsettled the first 2 days and i put alot of that on how she came into this world.

If people want to think of me as selfish for wanting to bring my baby into the world in the most natural, calm and gentle way then they are more then welcome too.

I know the decison i have made for a HB is just as much for my baby then it is for me. Actually its all for my baby as if i didnt have my babies interests at heart id go straight for a epidural again and have no pain but put them at extra risk


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## nov_mum

MW led care is the norm her too but there is that American influence via TV and celebrities etc that have normalised sections and hospital births. Here you can book a private OB but that will cost 4K upward. If you need specialist care (like I did once preeclampsia showed up) you get one assigned to you via the public system. Most private OBs here work part time in private practice and part time for the hospital so you get the same dr, you just pay for one if you choose one when it is not medically indicated. There is an increasing number of women opting and paying for private care as they assume they will get better quality care, which is not the case, you will just be more likely to end up with a section. Again, there is an increasing amount of women who opt for a section as they feel they will never cope, it is an easier pain free way to deliver and it is run of the mill these days.


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## chuck

Dr knows best!
*puke*


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## Jenniflower

nov_mum said:


> MW led care is the norm her too but there is that American influence via TV and celebrities etc that have normalised sections and hospital births. Here you can book a private OB but that will cost 4K upward. If you need specialist care (like I did once preeclampsia showed up) you get one assigned to you via the public system. Most private OBs here work part time in private practice and part time for the hospital so you get the same dr, you just pay for one if you choose one when it is not medically indicated. There is an increasing number of women opting and paying for private care as they assume they will get better quality care, which is not the case, you will just be more likely to end up with a section. *Again, there is an increasing amount of women who opt for a section as they feel they will never cope, it is an easier pain free way to deliver and it is run of the mill these days*.

This is one of my biggest pet peeves. Women that think C-sections are in fact the easy way out. There's been a few women in Third Tri asking if she can get a section simply because she's afraid of giving birth and think it would be easier. EASIER?! I mean I know I haven't had one, so by all means I can't talk but I sure can listen. My good friend wasn't able to even pick up her baby for the first 2 days because of the pain she was in. She had to press a button any time her LO was crying so that a MW would come and help. Sitting in a recovery room with 3 other women watching them come and go as the please and sooth their baby when they cry made her feel like less of a mother. Especially when the MW's were too busy to come help and the baby would cry at 2am waking everyone else up. :(

And man if I read one more time in Third Tri someone telling a women who wants to wait to be induced that she's going to kill her baby (Not exaggerating!) I'm about to scream. I mentioned in a thread in there some where that I was happy for a girl who just gave birth. Everyone was going on and on about how glad they were for her that baby was ok. How even though she had this crazy scary experience AT LEAST baby was ok. I went on to let her know how amazed I was at how strong she was. How even in the middle of the experience she was still able to stay strong and make an informed decision and how I'm glad both baby AND mother are ok. I don't think that gets said enough.


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## PeanutBean

If these people could see the scars some of us wear inside maybe they would be more careful with their comments. It starts with the criticisms of everything we choose to do in pregnancy, continues with the criticisms of our birth choices and then forever more in our parenting choices. Why can't we mums be people in our own right too? Why can't people accept that a happy mum makes for a happier baby? It's like we are supposed to disappear from existence in order for our babies to exist but it doesn't have to be that way.


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## Jenniflower

PeanutBean said:


> If these people could see the scars some of us wear inside maybe they would be more careful with their comments. It starts with the criticisms of everything we choose to do in pregnancy, continues with the criticisms of our birth choices and then forever more in our parenting choices. Why can't we mums be people in our own right too? Why can't people accept that a happy mum makes for a happier baby? It's like we are supposed to disappear from existence in order for our babies to exist but it doesn't have to be that way.

Preach it sister!


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## PeanutBean

And women are the biggest critics of all!


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## Jenniflower

PeanutBean said:


> And women are the biggest critics of all!

That's because most women that are this way or projecting their own deep seeded fears and opinions. Sometimes people should be more aware of themselves.


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## KandyKinz

PeanutBean said:


> Just a little moan or something, I'm not sure what. I've read a few things round the forum that have more or less subtly expressed the notion of mums wanting a better birth experience as being selfish. I can't really say how but it's sort of bothering me a bit.
> 
> Of course we would do anything to have healthy babies. But healthy babies and happy mums don't have to be mutually exclusive. :growlmad:

I definitly hear ya! I find this to be a topic really hard to get my head around. It just makes little sense to me why natural minded mums are seen to be driven by selfish motives alone. Yes we want to be empowered and maintain our dignity and respect during birth but the premise of our actions is to do what we can to encourage positive health outcomes for our babies. Or atleast that's my motive. There's this prevalent belief that the more interventions the better and this belief is being sustained by both the care providers and the women. Maternity care providers tend to consistently over-medicalize birth and carelessly use interventions when they are not actually indicated.... And a large percentage of the pregnant population tends to prefer the care providers who offer the most interventions. Just a quick glance over at the tri boards and it's easy to tell that women want medicalized care. It's crazy to see how many women actually want as many ultrasounds as possible, they want to be induced, they want epidurals, and episiotomies and cesareans. If it's something that can be offered by the medical world they want it believing the more interventions the safer the birth is..... It doesn't matter if studies are showing such interventions as being more harmful then good, doctor knows best and that's that.

I think a big part of why such beliefs continue to exist is that if people start questioning the way their care was managed or the decisions they made personally during their birth negative events which may have resulted would be much harder to accept eg cesareans, forceps, poor breastfeeding experiences. It's so much easier to move on from a not so great birth when you can do so knowing that any bad outcome was in fact inevitable. That your care provider and yourself did everything right and that in the end sh*t happens and you just have to deal with it..... It's alot more difficult to move forward from a traumatic birth after you realize that it could have potentially been different. When you have no choices in your pregnancy, you can't feel guilty over the outcome of those choices.... 

Then there's the true doctor knows best phenomenon in which there's this terrible belief circulating that women are not capable of researching or making informed decisions. This is the part which absolutely drives me bonkers!!!! Where I am there's this terrible sterotype that natural minded mothers who pursue natural childbirth are uneducated hippies when in reality they are some of the most educated and brilliant people I know. When many of us go against the norm there tends to be alot of thought and research put into it. That aspect of natural parenting tends not to be acknowledged by the rest of society. They don't seem to want to know the facts and the stats in regards to maternity care and why should they when the doctors know best anyways :wacko:


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## Tegans Mama

Mervs Mum said:


> I've said it before and I'll say it again. Dont let other people's baggage become yours. x

Lisa has it spot on for me. I've taken to just not replying and probably not even reading 99% of the tosh now because other people were bothering me FAR too much, and it's just not worth it. 

Healthy babies and happy Mummies and not mutually exclusive. In some circumstances you can't have one without the other. It's fluid. Get one, you get the other! 

No matter WHAT your do, your baby is exiting your body some way or another. I'd much rather it exited through the natural pathway in a nice environment. (and I'd rather vomit it up than have another section! lol)


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## PeanutBean

I can kind of understand the defensive aspect though my bad birth troubled me so much and so long I had to accept it had been avoidable, but then perhaps that's also my enquiring mind. But so many women who haven't had any sort of birth experience are so judgemental. Perhaps they are just the afraid ones.


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## indigo_fairy

PeanutBean said:


> But so many women who haven't had any sort of birth experience are so judgemental. Perhaps they are just the afraid ones.

Strange isn't it :haha: amazes me when someone tries to tell me how I should/n't have/do/done and they haven't the first idea of birth.


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## Bournefree

I get very bothered by people saying that it is selfish to have a homebirth. I think it could be damaging to a women&#8217;s confidence.

Yes.. If you have a birth at home you're likely to have 2 MW in attendance in the UK... But it certainly shouldn't be seen as selfish!!!

There are those that would argue that in a birth centre, or in hospital those 2 MW could care for 4 or even 6 women (2 to 3 each).. but to those that think it is selfish to have a homebirth I would just say. Why are they prepared to accept a poorer level of care? Wouldn&#8217;t they like a MW that is only there for you?
Homebirth is considerably more cost effective and wholly and fundamentally cheaper! (It's a shame it always comes down to money. but this is fact). If more women had a birth at home there would be more beds, money resources and MWs in the maternity system.
If I was feeling particularly vehement, I would argue that having a labour and birth in an Obstetric lead unit, without clinical indication could be argued as selfish.

But who wants to bring in the horrible word of selfish, where YOUR birth is concerned? Because it is YOUR birth, you only get to do this pregnancy once.. so why shouldn't we be concerned with what we would like to do with our own bodies!!?!?! Perhaps I should be more altruistic, and not have become pregnant in the first place?

Oh, sorry for my little rant ladies - but that is what gets me sometimes!
XxxX


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## PeanutBean

Interestingly Bourne the intensity of MW time is something I've never had thrown at me though one could see how that could be perceived as a valid argument. The fact is that most people don't know what the MW care is like in or out of hospital to be aware that this could be a grievance. I could imagine it being used by hospital staff but who's listening to them? :haha: It always seems to be perceived that we are after some sort of romantic experience and the price paid is the safety of our babies which we all know to be complete nonsense on both counts.

Well, it's nice to see I'm not alone in feeling cross about this anyway.


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## Bournefree

You are fortunate to not have it thrown at you - and as you say, I do agree that it could be a valid a argument, which is prob why it gets me more than any fool that is making off the cuff comments without being informed.

You're not alone that it gets to you though. I think it is appalling that the last resort argument used towards women about there birth choices is the "you wouldn't want to do anything to harm your baby!".. Like it is some sort of ace-in-the-pack, ender of all conversation.

Of course no one wants to harm their babies - why oh why don't some understand that WE know this best of all! You're a mother from the moment you're pregnant, and very few people would willingly take any action that is to the determent of themselves or their unborn children. I agree with the comments about it not being mutually exclusive - we are sharing our bodies with our babies. We make the right decisions for us and our babies. Pregnancy, labour and birth isn't a disease. And there is a growing number of women and evidence to say that we are not alone or incorrect in making our births a safe and far from medicallised experience.
XxX


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## carries

I always hated the attitude that you are a moron for having a plan...yes ok that plan may change but you should always go into the experience positive and hoping for what you want!

Both my labours went exactly as I wanted and as I had planned and even then the same people were telling me i was just 'lucky' grrr


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## PeanutBean

Yes there's been a going with the flow thread over in third tri recently. Can't remember who said it to me (might not have been in homebirth bit) but someone said that was a hospital's dream. No-one looked at mine once I'd been transferred, this much is clear, but probably it wasn't detailed enough. In hind sight... I also wonder who simply doesn't care at all whether or not they are unnecessarily cut or the baby given drugs it might not need etc?


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## indy and lara

I find all your points really interesting as someone who comes from a very different experience and perspective! First of all, I want to state that I don't think you are selfish for choosing a home birth/ different birthing experience. It is like so many other thing related to having a baby, your life and your choice. You should do what it right for you and to hell with the doubters. Let them do what they want with their OWN baby.

When I became pg with Emma we had no birth plan. I knew I would have a pg with a lot of medical observation and a very medically watched/ managed labour. There was no alternative really as our son died from a cord related accident and we would not know if Emma had the same problem until birth as there was no way of picking it up in utero. I have to say, hand on heart, I did not really care how I delivered her as long as I delivered her alive. My first birth was very traumatic, not physically but mentally. As a result I am the woman who believes that it does not matter what happens as long as you have a baby at the end of it. 

We did not have a birth plan this time round at all. I spent my whole labour on my back attached to monitors knowing that at the first sign of distress I would be straight to theatre for a crash section. Home birth/ water birth etc was just not a consideration for us as I just couldn't do it. However, DH and I are 'naturally' minded. I BF for 14 months, we use cloth, we BLW, attachment parented and tried baby wearing (Emma hated it!) 

Not sure why I felt the need to reply but I wanted just to say that being naturally minded and choosing a very medicalised birth are not mutually exclusive. You can have both sides to your personality! But, more than anything I just wanted to echo what others have said, just ignore them. If you look around the forum you see people criticising others' choices left, right and centre. Let it wash over you. I do. If I am happy I have made the right decision that is good enough for me- I don't need someone else to approve my choices. My body, my life, my decision!


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## PeanutBean

Hi Indy! Thanks for your perspective. I do get where you are coming from. I always try to be mindful that not everyone does have the luxury of a non-medicalised birth but that is where I feel modern medicine really does come into it's own. That we can save so many babies and Mums who otherwise might not have managed is a triumph and something to be proud of. There is a lady in my preg chat group who has one kidney and so a whole world of complications and she is just hoping that she might be able to avoid a section if possible. I think in cases we are all coming from our own perspective and where there is a clear medical indication or history then bring on the life-saving interventions!

I think the issue, for me anyway, is where the experience did not need to be so and was only so because of unnecessary intervention. Of course I can't know that my birth with my son would certainly have gone to plan had I not been made to go into hospital but given there were no contra-indications throughout and the only failure (or so I thought at the time) was my ability to manage I find I can only blame the medicalisation of it.

I hope I am making sense. I certainly don't judge women who need to have extra care for whatever reason. I hope I don't actually judge those who don't know or don't care, I dont understand them and they are clearly far from my own way of thinking but I don't know that's judging. Maybe it is? I don't know.

I suppose it's like, if we were to go into all these induction threads with "your baby might die if you have an induction!" "I knew a baby that was permanently brain damaged from forceps all because the mother chose to have an epidural" or similar it would be the equivalent of what is said to us. It's irrational in both directions. There are risks to all choices. Hell, there are risks to just being alive!

Going pretty far OT now but I have recently been defending the rights of pregnant women to smoke in the debate section! :lol: I think it's vile of course and have never smoked but remain baffled as to why people think it would be ok to criminalise these sorts of choices made by mothers and the inability to see past their incubatory role to an independent woman still in existance. Total tangent but it all comes down to choices.

In my ideal world we would all be really well informed, preferably throuhg our antenatal care provider, would be capable of making decisions for ourselves based on that information and our own situation, and perhaps most importantly would be able to trust that the info we received was balanced.

I suspect I'm entering waffle territory so I'll stop there...


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## indy and lara

^^^ I think I always find it hard to understand why women don't take charge and arm themselves with the facts in all aspects of life, not just birthing!

My hospital is building on a birthing unit They plan to move all non- medicalised births there are leave the main part of the hospital to those who need more intervention, etc. Think this is a good step in the right direction!

I agree though, there would be outrage if you made those comments in the tris but the same courtesy is not extended to you which is wrong.


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## PeanutBean

We apparently have a birthing unit too, and as I had a pool room I suppose I must've been it but it sure felt hospital to me! We have a separate birth centre MILES away. I don't understand why as it is so far out of the PCT geographically. For me, being 15 mins from the hospital at home it would be bananas to go to the birth centre that is much much further away. Good for those who live that way though!

I hope your new centre will be lovely. Will you be able to use it another time if you wanted to?


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## indy and lara

In theory I could probably ask but in reality, not really. Bobo's cord was completely flat and crushed. They just can't tell if it has happened again until the baby is born and if it does happen again, I need to be where I can be sectioned immediately if the baby goes into distress. Honestly though, I have made my peace with all that now. However, I like that other women can take more control of their births though and feel that sense of empowerment.

I can still be a tree hugger and follow the natural path.....just not for those 24 hours when I am in labour!!!!


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## carries

indy and lara said:


> I can still be a tree hugger and follow the natural path.....just not for those 24 hours when I am in labour!!!!

Its funny how some people tend to group everyone in one camp or the other isnt it...you are either a hippy or a back birther...there is a whole lot of grey between those two! The point isnt a right or a wrong choice its having the information to make that choice.


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## PeanutBean

I think the grouping is part of the problem. The perception of natural birth as some sort of martyrism at best and selfish risk at worst must go some way to explain why so many people seem to take umbridge. I know we can count the steps to how it came to be so but it is still so odd that birthing by itself has become this huge medical issue. I read a bunch of blogs yesterday so I forget where this was but one referred to an analogy of puberty - what if a child hadn't started her period by 13 and was given lots of hormones to get things going as she was overdue? I thought it an interesting one. Obviously there ARE risks to childbirth and largely unpredictable ones too which there aren't with periods but still the principle is there I think.


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## Bournefree

That is really interesting! I like the puberty analogy.
For one, I would be asking for evidence of risk. and not to induce just on time constraints. Same goes for ARM, Epi, inductions drips and all interventions. It would be my biggest wish that everyone might ask the simple question of "why"? Before they consent.

Part of the cycle is that many women don't even realise that they have consented to certain medical procedures without their knowledge. All it takes is an "oh ok" or laying down on a bed, spreading your legs, and you have deemed to have consented. Like rolling up your sleeve when the dr or nurse wants to take your BP, but not asking why they would like to do it- it has become second nature to be compliant to medical professionals
So often I hear women tell stories about their experiences, and they have been told "we need to do..." "we have to do.." and have said "oh, ok" without even questioning what it is that is going on or their other options - you can always wait! If there is fault in this, I place it at the door step of the health professional and their language; for it is the style of language that makes women feel they don't have another option.

Where our bodies are concerned we all should be questioning what other options are available and the risks involved of each option - hard in a pressurised environment - easier, if you do your research before hand.

In my view, the fundermental point is that unless you are presenting with evidence of physological problem, then there isn't a NEED to interveen. Not guidelines, not policy - evidence is what I what to see.

-----------------
Also PB: I knew we had a similar outlook on this, but I didn't realise how far! I would also prob be defending a pregnant women's right to smoke. I'm not saying that I think it's ok.. just the right to be able to choose it.

This type of thing is a common in human rights issues. A fav and well documented point is (another off topic ;-) is about free speech (or freedom of expression in HR) "If you only say things that don't offend anyone, and are acceptable in the norm, then it isn't a freedom at all" Essentially; you are only free if you can really offend people!
Same goes for all freedoms - it has nothing to do with the accepted norm, and everything to do with choice and autonomy.

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What is interesting is that most of the women on the whole of babyandbump are exposed to different ideas and want to talk about how they feel, what their experiences are. I feel for those that go alone the path set by their health pros, and never get the exposure to the questions that surround it or even perhaps think about it.

Xxx


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## PeanutBean

The smoking thread really annoyed me. One person was arguing for human rights for the unborn at the expense of the mother, which I cannot agree with, and another was arguing for the moral reasons to give up which I can agree with but pointed out that morals are subjective. Of course each would selectively ignore the parts of my posts that related to their argument and respond the opposite! :growlmad: When there was talk of fining smoking mothers I bowed out. The implications on child poverty of fining the largely poorer mother than smokes in pregnancy doesn't bear thinking about!

Anyway...

I suppose there is a potential issue that evidence is not generally presented in an accessible way. I consider myself quite fortunate that my scientific training is sufficient to generally understand the original medical texts but most people certainly don't have that skill and there are no efforts made to communicate the findings in an accessible and accurate way (unlike the Mail for example). Perhaps I have spotted a niche and should become a consultant in birthing science... :D


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## MrS. MaBrEy

my mother says the same thing, that because iwant a natural childbirth that i am sacrificing my babies well being...i told her she could do the research herself when i finally do get my BFP, and then she can go get knocked up again and give birth however she pleases! personal choices are just that, and it is none of anyones business what we choose to do.


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## nov_mum

indy and lara said:


> In theory I could probably ask but in reality, not really. Bobo's cord was completely flat and crushed. They just can't tell if it has happened again until the baby is born and if it does happen again, I need to be where I can be sectioned immediately if the baby goes into distress. Honestly though, I have made my peace with all that now. However, I like that other women can take more control of their births though and feel that sense of empowerment.
> 
> I can still be a tree hugger and follow the natural path.....just not for those 24 hours when I am in labour!!!!

I had an experience where I had to have monitoring. First of all I was medically induced with a 35 week baby so monitoring was part and parcel and I was glad of that. I agreed to the induction because the team I was working with advised me that they had done everything medically possible to keep my baby growing safely inside me. Medical science is a fantastic thing that in many cases is able to prevent many unfortunate outcomes. Not many people die of preeclampsia these days where it was a death sentence not so long ago. I know my births were both medicalised as I was induced with both but if I had not been curious about outcomes with PET I would have let them persist until I needed a crash c section, which I was minutes away from having when I first was admitted but luckily I responded to the meds after about 10 minutes. If I had a section I wouldn't be upset (well aside from the fact I didn't get the birth I wanted and I was scared and cut open in a rush) I would be happy my baby and I were alive to tell the tale. 

My concerns were with my second pregnancy that it was assumed by so many that I would be under specialist care given my history. If that had happened I bet I wouldn't have made it to 38 weeks. I was admitted at 34 weeks and would have been kept in on bedrest despite my bp and blood results not warranting it. After a discussion I was discharged, repeatedly hounded by out patient midwives but I got to 38 weeks which meant no NICU for baby and he was strong and healthy for a normal birth. When I had one medical condition already I really didn't want a surgical one on top of that if it could have been prevented. 

I still consider myself an advocate of natural birthing as even if I do get PET again with this pregnancy, I know that I will at least understand why each and every intervention will take place. At the end of the day my baby's health and my health are my main concern but I'm not about to offer myself up to the doctors and surgeons unless it is indicated. 

I hope that makes sense?? I am just saying that I aim for the best outcome for mum and bubs and when there is not a complicating picture, the least interventions are the best outcome in my book.


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## indy and lara

^^^ Knowledge is power. There is a common idea running through this thread that the problem is that so many women just don't know their options/ understand what different choices really are. I think this is where so many of the problems lie. I cannot understand why someone would spend 4 months researching which pram to buy, but not looking into different labouring positions/ the realities of induction ect.

Nov Mum, it is great that you managed to get to 38 weeks. But again, it shows the difference that can happen when someone understands what is happening and is empowered by this to make their choice. As I said, the problem for me is that should Emma have crushed her cord, it needed to be picked up immediately. I am fine with what we did because again, I feel I had researched it all, knew the posible outcomes and made a considered judgement.


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## KandyKinz

indy and lara said:


> ^^^ Knowledge is power. There is a common idea running through this thread that the problem is that so many women just don't know their options/ understand what different choices really are. I think this is where so many of the problems lie. I cannot understand why someone would spend 4 months researching which pram to buy, but not looking into different labouring positions/ the realities of induction ect.

I completely and utterly agree with that ^^^^ Knowledge really is everything.


It's not the interventions which are the problem. There are times when the interventions do in fact save lives and improve outcomes. The problem is when the interventions are used carelessly and they are much more likely to be used carelessly when women are not aware of the true indications for such interventions, when they don't know the risks and complications associated with those interventions and when they are not aware of any alternative options available to them.


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## chuck

KandyKinz said:


> I completely and utterly agree with that ^^^^ Knowledge really is everything.
> 
> 
> It's not the interventions which are the problem. There are times when the interventions do in fact save lives and improve outcomes. The problem is when the interventions are used carelessly and they are much more likely to be used carelessly when women are not aware of the true indications for such interventions, when they don't know the risks and complications associated with those interventions and when they are not aware of any alternative options available to them.

This is my problem, I thought I was informed but in reality I was so naive my baby was back to back and yet I bowed to the 'wisdom' of the Dr's and allowed myself to be laid flat on my back on a monitor and stayed there for hours despite baby never showing signs of distress...no wonder he never rotated <facepalm>

The apparent need for intervention - drip to speed things along/monitor to keep an eye on baby (because we're doing unnatural things to your body) was really the need to hit targets (1cm per hour please missus cervix)!


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## rachiedata

This is a great thread that really shows how well informed and confident in her own decisions any individual woman can be - certainly before I started reading into home birth at about 16 weeks gone I was fairly naive, but would have told you at the time I was well informed! Sometimes it really is the things you never knew you never knew that can open up a whole world of possibilities.

It's funny a couple of you should bring up defending smoking during pregnancy, I don't smoke, never had, and if I had smoked I would have given up on finding out I was expecting. I have a colleague at work, due shortly, and when I expressed surprise to another colleague that she was still smoking quite far into her pregnancy, she defended her quite strongly, that she had cut back and was trying hard to quit. Fair enough, I says, it is her pregnancy and she is obviously trying to do best by her baby. However, I know that if I explained my plans for a home birth to this colleague, I would be called all the names under the sun! Called all kinds of irresponsible, selfish, probably told that I have no idea what birth is like and should expect the worst... I still feel, from the people I speak to, that what we plan for our births (our babys birth, our own choices), is still a bit of a taboo.

Peanut I am in the same position - a big reason I am going for home birth and hope not to have any interventions is that I have read the literature, I am a Physiology graduate and know a good study from a bad one, and it is clear to me that being at home and questioning the need to be monitored, poked and prodded will increase my chances of a straightforward labour and an experience I will be happy to remember.


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## KandyKinz

chuck said:


> KandyKinz said:
> 
> 
> I completely and utterly agree with that ^^^^ Knowledge really is everything.
> 
> 
> It's not the interventions which are the problem. There are times when the interventions do in fact save lives and improve outcomes. The problem is when the interventions are used carelessly and they are much more likely to be used carelessly when women are not aware of the true indications for such interventions, when they don't know the risks and complications associated with those interventions and when they are not aware of any alternative options available to them.
> 
> This is my problem, I thought I was informed but in reality I was so naive my baby was back to back and yet I bowed to the 'wisdom' of the Dr's and allowed myself to be laid flat on my back on a monitor and stayed there for hours despite baby never showing signs of distress...no wonder he never rotated <facepalm>
> 
> The apparent need for intervention - drip to speed things along/monitor to keep an eye on baby (because we're doing unnatural things to your body) was really the need to hit targets (1cm per hour please missus cervix)!Click to expand...

That's the thing.... In order to be fully informed you have to do your research prior to even stepping foot into the hospital doors. If you want a birth without the use of needless interventions you almost have to go into it knowing about almost every possible "complication" imaginable, how those "complications" should be managed, how the care providers will likely try to manage it and whether that "complication" is even a complication in the first place. Sadly, in the majority of situations the information you receive from your care providers while in the situation will likely be very very very very very very biased, potentially outdated or even inaccurate. When you listen to a care provider you're relying solely on word of mouth and that approach can often lead people astray. There's ALOT of benefit from getting the perspectives of several different people, from different care providers, from different women who experienced similar situations in their past, from different studies, etc etc. It's only when you can put all that data together that you can truly make a well informed decision regarding prenatal and intrapartum management decisions.

And that ^^^^^ is a HUGE and very difficult task!!!! I studied midwifery for a little over three years and had an active involvement in the doula/birthing community prior to that and even I don't feel no where close to being prepared enough to challenge the system and back up my choices if something "abnormal" presents itself.


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## Breezy

Funny that I should run across this thread today because this is something I have been thinking about for a few days now. Now, I before I say what I have to say I need to fess up and say that I will be induced on Wednesday unless my LO decides to come into this world on his own accord today or tomorrow. I chose the induction because my husband is deploying at the beginning of next month and I have no friends or family down here with me and with this being my first child, for the sanity of myself I NEED my husband here with me for a few days (20 to be exact) to get used to being a mother. Also, my MW has found my BP keeps climbing so they may have done that anyhow. 

The reason I felt the need to say that is because I do feel selfish for my decision to be induced and I am torn between wanting my son to be able to bond for a few days with his father and wanting as little medical intervention as possible.

Anyways, I have always wanted to go the "natural" route. I watched a documentry called The Business of Being Born before I even got pregnant and it made a lot of sense to me. I also had friends that have had children and have been induced and their labors have been days long because they were obviously not ready at all and some ended in a c-section. When I first decided I wanted to try for a natural child birth everyone was telling me how crazy I am and how there is NO way I can say I want a natural child birth when I have never had a baby before. There is NO way I will be able to withstand the pain.

The other day I read this on a friends Facebook status:

_"We girlfriends want to let you in on a secret. There is no award ceremony for Mothers after delivery. No announcements will are made over the loudspeaker; no medals are presented to those Mothers who managed to deliver their children without pain medication, without crying and without making a mess on the delivery table.First of all, few victors would emerge. Second, the other Mothers in the audience would throw their hemorrhoid pillows at the medalists. Here it is, girlfriends... epidurals are great. Cesareans can save lives and curtail unneces...sary suffering. There is no such thing as a second-class birth. Willingness to suffer or to put the baby or yourself in jeopardy, especially when you are frightened and tired, is a sign of questionable judgment, not heroism."_

The above may mean different things to different people but to me, it feels like we are telling women that they are not strong enough to give birth without medical intervention. We (I use the term "we" very loosely obviously) are not empowering women to do what their bodies were MADE to do. Instead women are being scared by doctors, friends, family members, etc into thinking that they CAN NOT do it naturally. Or telling them that there is NO benefit to doing it naturally. Frankly, that appauls and saddens me.

I have NOTHING against women that opted for the epidural or any other pain management or even the women that went right into it saying from the get go that they WOULD be getting all the pain medicine they could. That is a personal choice that I need to respect. But, would these same women have that same attitude if things were presented to them in a different way? If they were told they CAN do it naturally and they CAN have a good experience? If giving birth wasn't on someone elses time??

The birth center I go to for my prenatal care is moving to a different location and therefore they have the women that have birthed there writing on the walls under a title called "If these walls could talk..." I was reading them today and one stuck out in my mind. It was:

_"If these walls could talk........they would say that women are STRONG! These walls know that the women that walked these halls may have come in saying "I don't think I CAN" and left saying "I DID". Once I gave birth, I realized I can do ANYTHING."_

That's really all I have to say about this subject. I just needed to get it off of my chest because I have been laying in bed thinking about it over and over again! :flower: Hope I made sense.


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## nov_mum

In regards to the facebook post...oh dear! That is the exact bollocks that is spouted these days "no awards given" blah blah. My award was that my 35 week baby needed no interventions and stayed with me on the ward which was the best outcome for breast feeding and bonding. Had I gone through a section he would have been in NICU without a doubt and I would have been recovering from surgery with PET. Not an ideal outcome in my book. So I say to those people that my awards run around all day and remind me of what a natural birth can achieve. I agree that comments such as the facebook posting above reiterate that women should just take the surgical route with meds and doctors as they obviously have 'questionable judgement'


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## Bournefree

I'm also very saddened by the facebook post. I can' only think that the person that originated it might have had quite alot of birth-baggage.

Interestingly one of the reasons induction can be offered to women, without clinical indicators, is in your situation Breezy - where a partner might be deployed in the services.
However, for me, I find it strange that our government would offer a medical treatment without indication to a women, but not offer the deployment of the partner to be delayed first? I'm unsure if this can be done. Have you and your partner asked Breezy?
Xxx


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## PeanutBean

That is a good point Bourne. I suppose this is an issue of paternal rights, something still slender in the UK. I suppose we're still fighting the battle of maternal rights really but I hope one day our society will confer some respect and liberty on fathers-to-be too.

In the Wesson book I was reading about the lying in period in other cultures. We have our two weeks obligatory leave from work but perhaps if our culture were more protective of new mums then the need for the father to be there would be recognised.

Gosh what a novel picture you have painted of a country that would rather subject a woman to unnecessary and potentially risky medical practice rather than allow a father to be at home at the natural time.


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## Bournefree

Exactly! Unfortunatly any human rights, employment rights, or discrimination laws go right out the window where the defence of our country is concerned. Though, there is always discression of senior officers. I have a friend that I did my law degree with, who was and still is in the Navy.. so I only know a little about this, but what I do know, is that it is a whole different set of laws from those afforded to the general population; which why I'm very interested to know if Breezy and her partner have asked. It would certainly depend on how crucial his role is within the services.
XxX


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## canadabear

indy and lara said:


> ^^^ Knowledge is power. There is a common idea running through this thread that the problem is that so many women just don't know their options/ understand what different choices really are. I think this is where so many of the problems lie. I cannot understand why someone would spend 4 months researching which pram to buy, but not looking into different labouring positions/ the realities of induction ect.

YES!! This is exactly what I was thinking when I was reading through a lot of the threads on BNB! I find it so shocking that so many people, obviously with internet access, post threads/comments without doing approx. 5 mins of research. I think it is wonderful to post questions, concerns, ask for assistance, moral support etc.. but I also think it is so empowering to do some research and find out the answers that are out there! 
And I DO spend time researching prams, cloth diapers (HOURS AND HOURS OF RESEARCH :blush:), clothing, parenting ideas/opinions, breastfeeding, etc etc. To me it is all part of becoming a parent. And the major beginning of that is the pregnancy and labour! 

On a less ranting note: I am living in Spain and my pregnancy is completely MW lead. You do not see a doctor here unless you have complications or you choose to pay for private care. In private care you are only taken care of by DR.. no MW.. and the chances of having a c-section are very high! In Spain, you only get 3 scans.. one per trimester (unless you have complications). They usually leave you to it, provide info and monthly checkups for weight, bp etc. It is treated as a natural process not a medical condition.
That being said.. they don't really do a lot of homebirths and I have gone with the flow in terms of giving birth in a hospital. Just one of the things I have had to change about my original wishes on giving birth.. but I do trust in the MW and the system here is much less medicalized than in Canada. 

Sorry for the long post.. :haha:


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## KandyKinz

PeanutBean said:


> Gosh what a novel picture you have painted of a country that would rather subject a woman to unnecessary and potentially risky medical practice rather than allow a father to be at home at the natural time.


What an absolutely lovely concept!!!!!! Why the hell didn't I think of that :dohh:

I am residing by a very large military establishment and when I did my hospital placement here on L&D 90% of the inductions were done between 37 <<<<GASP>>>> and 39 weeks for "social" purposes or in other words moms wanting their partners to be present for the first week postpartum or atleast for the birth :wacko: I got to scrub into alot of sections for labour dystocias that placement.....

Anyways, as much as I am against unnecessary interventions, the requests of these woman are in fact very understandable in my mind and it's completely and totally unfair that these women are being placed in a situation where they have to choose between having support and optimizing the outcome of the birth. It's truly sad. 

Implementing a system in which men have paternal rights to be able to stay in their community with their partners during the period of time in which a woman is likely to give birth AND definitly postpartum is really the only solution. It's just sad when a woman comes in and says that her husband is coming back from overseas for just two weeks at term and that she needs to have her baby at the beginning of those two weeks in order for her to have support afterwards... And sadly for alot of these women their partner really is their only support. They're being moved all over the place every couple of years, they continuously losing contacts with family and friends as a result (I used to be an army brat... I know). From a psycho social perspective the effects that this can have on a new mother is just terrible. Under normal circumstances birth shouldn't have to be planned and parents (both of them) have the right to be there in the early days postpartum. Being at home, even if still working, for 2 or 3 months at term and the suspected postpartum is certainly not an unreasonable request and delaying deployment is certainly not the end of the world especially since there are several other men who are fully able to take their place at that time.


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## PeanutBean

Can I just say that I am LOVING this thread? I had no idea it would turn out this way. This really is the thinking-woman's section. <3


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## Bournefree

Removed by poster


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## aob1013

What exactly is selfish about getting the birth you want?!


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## Bournefree

^^^ I can't tell if your asking seriously or being retorical? ;-)


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## aob1013

Both :haha:


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## Bournefree

Haahaahaa! Well it's quite hard for ME to argue the other side of the coin, but I'll give it a shot:

A few people, mostly women who have had a bad birthing experience, would and have said. "you are being a Marta", " you are putting your babies life at risk, by not going with medical convention", "how far will you take your rights to birth as you wish? will you only be happy if your baby dies.. but at least you said you went for a natural birth", "my baby would have died, if I wasn't in hospital, and I can't believe that you would want to risk it", "oh you are brave.. what will you do if X, Y and Z, happens?", "the doctors know best, what makes you think you're so special?".. I could go on.. But it is always a horribly mal-formed argument.

As the ladies have shown here, we are informed, we are aware, we are grateful there are medical procedures there if we need them - but it is still our choice.
Xxx


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## pimento1979

Bournefree said:


> Canadabear - If you are still thinking of homebirth as an option, and I don't know if it varies by region, but Pimento1979 booked a homebirth in Spain.
> She transfered just before the birth.. here is her birth story. I don't think she would mind me pointing you towards it, or if you got in contact to ask how it was arranged. https://www.babyandbump.com/home-natural-birthing/522235-my-birth-story-arrival-eva.html
> Xxx

Sorry, but my birth was in the UK :) xx


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## indy and lara

PeanutBean said:


> Can I just say that I am LOVING this thread? I had no idea it would turn out this way. This really is the thinking-woman's section. <3

It really is. Was just thinking this morning that I was really enjoying reading well constructed arguments and posts. Sadly I have little to add to this section but I may linger!!!!


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## Freya

Haven't read through all pages, but so glad it's been mentioned. It's soooo hard to ignore some negative posts because I personally want to rant and rave back at them to say no, I'm not putting baby at risk yada yada.... Mervs is so right, other folks baggage being imposed on to others. Got to remember what 'may' be their truth, is NOT mine. 

Honestly, wishing for patience because it makes me mad grrr


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## Bournefree

pimento1979 said:


> Bournefree said:
> 
> 
> Canadabear - If you are still thinking of homebirth as an option, and I don't know if it varies by region, but Pimento1979 booked a homebirth in Spain.
> She transfered just before the birth.. here is her birth story. I don't think she would mind me pointing you towards it, or if you got in contact to ask how it was arranged. https://www.babyandbump.com/home-natural-birthing/522235-my-birth-story-arrival-eva.html
> Xxx
> 
> Sorry, but my birth was in the UK :) xxClick to expand...

Sorry - I don't know why I thought it was in spain??? WHO am I thinking of??! That is really going to bug me... someone was in spain! lol
Xxx


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## rachiedata

Adding to the every woman and every baby is different point... had a nice conversation with my close colleague about it today. She has had some terrible pregnancy stories, miscarriages and a very late stillbirth, and finally had a daughter born by emergency C/S after failed induction. Whenever I've mentioned my plans for HB, it seemed she could not be supportive because of her history, because all she could say was "Well, you wait and see what happens".

Today she told me some of the awful things "friends" and other mothers at a mother and baby group had said to her, like "Oh, I forgot you've never given birth _properly_" and "Too posh to push, were you?". She told me she agreed to a lot of interventions in her daughters birth due to purposeful ignorance, not wanting to make a birth plan or hope for anything except the worst, after what she'd previously been through.

Conversations I am having every day about my plans just reinforce that we - and so obviously we are all preaching to the choir here! - can only ask to be respected in our own choices and to respect others.


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## PeanutBean

The 'bad' birth stories is an issue. I find it a conundrum because I want to tell everyone mine together with the footnotes about how it could all have been prevented. I don't want women to become afraid, I want them to learn the moral which is that we have a choice and better understanding our options and their pros and cons allows us to make the best choice for ourselves be that home free birth or elected section. I don't think having had intervention means it was a bad birth, it might mean it was a life-saving birth and I think that is what medicine is for. Every time intervention is used it should be for real need.


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## rachiedata

Exactly... I'm surprised my colleague didn't knock some of these people out, I mean you wouldn't dream of saying some of those things even if you were misguided enough to think them. I think she was terribly brave and very strong of character to go through all that and come out safe and with a healthy daughter.


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## Aidan's Mummy

I had a pretty horrible birth experience. Partly because I was made to lay on my back with a monitor attached, meaning I couldn't move get comfortable and do what I wanted too. My previous birth experience makes ne petrified of labour. I'm glad Aidan wad healthy but it's not the birth I wanted and I think my labour could have been managed mire effectively x


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## PeanutBean

Hi Heather! Are you WTT? I so know where you're coming from and going through a big journey to overcome my fear. I was unafraid of birth last time, excited about it, so it really knocked me for six when it all went wrong. I have found it really helpful to look into what happened and analyse it. I'm going to do a debrief with the hospital as soon as I have time and have spent probably about a year figuring it all out and motivating myself for change. Maybe you'd find a debrief helpful too?


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## Aidan's Mummy

Hi hun. Yeah I am WTT. I think a debrief will be really benificial. I am also looking into having a doula for my next labour. I have become very interested in hypnobirthing and learning to put trust back into my body :) xx


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## chuck

I think my husband thinks I'm being selfish or trying to prove something to myself by wanting to have a natural homebirth.

He's not 100% on board.

he would much rather I was in hospital as he feels it would be safer - but he is one of these Dr knows best people. When many of us here know full well more often than not when it comes to labour and birth they do not - they have too many targets/deadlines/recommendations to follow.

I think I'm lucky so far I haven't had any opposition or bad comments being made to me about my choices - apart form the OB but that goes without saying really LOL.

Many people have said well done hope it goes well, and I wish I had done that. I've had a few you must be brave/arent you scared conversations but nothing bad.

I speak to them about my horrible experience - one to which many can relate (strange that :rolleyes:) and that if I or the baby is not ill then why go to hospital?!


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## KandyKinz

chuck said:


> I think my husband thinks I'm being selfish or trying to prove something to myself by wanting to have a natural homebirth.
> 
> He's not 100% on board.
> 
> he would much rather I was in hospital as he feels it would be safer - but he is one of these Dr knows best people. When many of us here know full well more often than not when it comes to labour and birth they do not - they have too many targets/deadlines/recommendations to follow.
> 
> I think I'm lucky so far I haven't had any opposition or bad comments being made to me about my choices - apart form the OB but that goes without saying really LOL.
> 
> Many people have said well done hope it goes well, and I wish I had done that. I've had a few you must be brave/arent you scared conversations but nothing bad.
> 
> I speak to them about my horrible experience - one to which many can relate (strange that :rolleyes:) and that if I or the baby is not ill then why go to hospital?!

That's good that you haven't come across too much judgement other then husband who's not 100%. Though I must admit I'm almost jealous of that. Mine couldn't care either way at all. Home, hospital, midwife, doctor, hanging upside down from a tree..... Whatever I want is fine with him which is kinda annoying.... It would be nice if he "cared" a little one way or another and if we could actually discuss these topics rather then him just dismissing everything with a "sure, you know these things best" :dohh: 

And as for opposition I wish I could say the same. I can't say that I've run into anyone who has outwardly expressed their disaproval but I have had many encounters with individuals close to me in my family who just don't understand the natural birth concept. Everytime I speak to my grandmother she asks me if I still intend to have a homebirth and asks me if I have decided to go see a doctor yet. I've gone over with her what a midwife does time and time again but in her eyes they are just not as competent as physicians :nope: Then there's my mother :dohh: Love her to death but sometimes the things she says makes me wanna ](*,) like yesterdays 'I don't understand you yuppies and your insistence to have a natural waterbirth at home....... it just complicates things.... The whole purpose of birth is to get the baby in the end.... I just don't get why you want the gender to be a surprise or make the birth experience enjoyable.... Labour is just not an enjoyable thing....." Again ](*,)


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## PeanutBean

Yuppies?! lol


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## Bournefree

KandyKinz said:


> 'I don't understand you yuppies and your insistence to have a natural waterbirth at home....... it just complicates things.... The whole purpose of birth is to get the baby in the end.... I just don't get why you want the gender to be a surprise or make the birth experience enjoyable.... Labour is just not an enjoyable thing....." Again ](*,)

Your mum makes me smile!! Sounds a bit like mine!
Although my folks have offered me keys to there house (they are overseas a lot) and Im allowed to birth in my mums kitchen (not the sitting room, as I might ruin the rug) - this is incase I dont have any MWs in Bournemouth. Bless her, its a start! :wacko:

Mums hey - god!! What am I going to be like if and when my daughter is expecting a baby? ... and what if she decides that she would prefer to have c-section for a first baby over anything else??! She might be on here saying how mum my said this that and the other and is totally unsupportive because she had a home birth with me - hahahaha!
I like to think that I would be supportive.. but perhaps if Im honest with myself, Ill prob be adding in my opinions and persuasion. thinking Im doing what right for her; as all mums do!
Hey by the time my girl gets to have a baby maybe they will be teleporting babies out! I'd still go for the push method!!
XxX


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## chuck

LOL 'might ruin the rug'

....thats brilliant. part of Hubby's reasons not to have a birth pool was think about damage to the TV/electricals etc.


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## Bournefree

It's really silly, because last time I gave birth it was at my sister's flat, and all her nice brand new cream carpets were all fine - she knows this.. she was round 2mins after my daughter was born! I was saying, why not the sitting room, what if I want to watch tv?! ;-) She said I could bring the TV into the kitchen. So the silly handmade silk indian rug they lugged halfway round the world, has priority over me..? to which she could only say "yes darling, that is about right"
Hahahaha!!! I know my place! Oh don't they drive you bonkers!


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## KandyKinz

Bournefree said:


> KandyKinz said:
> 
> 
> 'I don't understand you yuppies and your insistence to have a natural waterbirth at home....... it just complicates things.... The whole purpose of birth is to get the baby in the end.... I just don't get why you want the gender to be a surprise or make the birth experience enjoyable.... Labour is just not an enjoyable thing....." Again ](*,)
> 
> Your mum makes me smile!! Sounds a bit like mine!
> Although my folks have offered me keys to there house (they are overseas a lot) and Im allowed to birth in my mums kitchen (not the sitting room, as I might ruin the rug) - this is incase I dont have any MWs in Bournemouth. Bless her, its a start! :wacko:
> 
> Mums hey - god!! What am I going to be like if and when my daughter is expecting a baby? ... and what if she decides that she would prefer to have c-section for a first baby over anything else??! She might be on here saying how mum my said this that and the other and is totally unsupportive because she had a home birth with me - hahahaha!
> I like to think that I would be supportive.. but perhaps if Im honest with myself, Ill prob be adding in my opinions and persuasion. thinking Im doing what right for her; as all mums do!
> Hey by the time my girl gets to have a baby maybe they will be teleporting babies out! I'd still go for the push method!!
> XxXClick to expand...

Gotta love moms and I have to say I'll probably be just like you when mine become of childbearing age and be pushing for the push method lol. In real life I try to be very respectful of other people's choices in regards to pregnancy/parenting choices (not online ofcourse :winkwink:) but when it comes to my children I have to admit that I have certainly done my fair share of moulding them into believing what I want them to believe.... And perhaps I have gone abit to far as last time I went shopping and passed the formula aisle my 5 year old daughter blurted out real loud "Ewwwwwwwwww formula, when are those women going to learn that breastfeeding is better" :dohh: 

Ooopsie.....


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## KandyKinz

PeanutBean said:


> Yuppies?! lol

LOL Yep :D 

Isn't my mom lovely???? :haha:


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## NaturalMomma

That bothers me too. After having PPD and PTSD after my first birth, excuse me if I don't want to go through that all again. It's not fun knowing all your life that you want to be a mother, and then when it happens you can't bond and your whole world is thrown upside down all because of what happened during birth, things that didn't need to happen. A healthy baby isn't all that matters, a healthy mom is too. And believe me, you'll remember your horrible birth for the rest of your life, and in my experience, it's a lot stronger memory than my subsequent wonderful birth.


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## rachiedata

My own mother was actually quite supportive... was a bit scared to tell her I preferred to give birth at home at first. She just said how near the hospital we were _should_ we need to go, and I'm sure you'll be fine, you know what you're doing!

Nearly 24 years of asking her opinion, then doing whatever I want to anyway has finally got through to her!!

Sometimes it's hard to tell whether people actively disapprove, or just need more information for the decision. If your husband/mother/any other family won't listen to any reason, that's a real shame, being open minded and listening to reasoned arguments could turn disapproval into surprise approval!


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## PeanutBean

My mum's reaction has been interesting and complicated! She has had four kids, two at home, first and last (me) induced. Don't know why my brother was but she had bad pre-eclampsia with me and was on bed rest in hospital for weeks. She was disgusted with the treatment I received at my birth long before I was. She's never had any issue with my wanting a home birth either time but she is nevertheless terrified about any of us going into labour! Seems a bit mad. She had very quick labours, all less than 7 hours, fairly straightforward, no complications except with me. But she has seen my sister's long labours and clearly saw too much of mine last time! She just seems always worried about us. Yesterday she randomly asked me about blood pressure and swelling because I was feeling a bit faint (bearing in mind I have low iron and am at the tail end of nearly 2 weeks of bronchitis and had no complications in pregnancy last time) and said how she knew a woman who died very suddenly from pre-eclampsia but the doctors had said it was so fast no-one could've done anything. What that sort of anecdote achieves I don't know! :dohh: I think she just doesn't know how to handle the worry for us more than having any real aversion to any plans.


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## KandyKinz

PeanutBean said:


> My mum's reaction has been interesting and complicated! She has had four kids, two at home, first and last (me) induced. Don't know why my brother was but she had bad pre-eclampsia with me and was on bed rest in hospital for weeks. She was disgusted with the treatment I received at my birth long before I was. She's never had any issue with my wanting a home birth either time but she is nevertheless terrified about any of us going into labour! Seems a bit mad. She had very quick labours, all less than 7 hours, fairly straightforward, no complications except with me. But she has seen my sister's long labours and clearly saw too much of mine last time! She just seems always worried about us. Yesterday she randomly asked me about blood pressure and swelling because I was feeling a bit faint (bearing in mind I have low iron and am at the tail end of nearly 2 weeks of bronchitis and had no complications in pregnancy last time) and said how she knew a woman who died very suddenly from pre-eclampsia but the doctors had said it was so fast no-one could've done anything. What that sort of anecdote achieves I don't know! :dohh: I think she just doesn't know how to handle the worry for us more than having any real aversion to any plans.

I almost just wanna hug your mom and tell her it will all be alright! :hugs: It must have been really hard on her to see you go through that horrific ordeal.

I think my mother's past obstetrical experiences also has played a huge role in how she views things now. I was her first and with me she experienced days and days of latent labour. Once they finally did admit her after having not slept for ages she was completely exhausted. So they augmented her with oxytocin and she spent the remainder of her prolonged labour in confined in bed strapped to the monitors. Early on in the process my dad left for lunch..... and then never returned until after I was born 24 hours later. So she had no labour support. Giving birth to me traumatized her!

Then with my sister, she ended up having placenta previa and had several hemorrhaging incidents. As a result she ended up being admitted onto the maternity ward from 24 weeks until she had a cesarean at 36 weeks (with a brief 2 day period around 33 weeks where they allowed her to come home, but was quickly rushed back to hospital for another subsequent hemorrhage). The day after the birth my sister developed quite extensive jaundice and was placed in the NICU for a few days. They both finally made it home and week postpartum my mother became very very ill with a staph infection which became systemic and it literally took her months to fully recover from it. Being pregnant with my sister and the horrible postpartum experienced traumatized her even more!

Then with my brother, who's due date was just 18 months after my sisters birth she had another awful pregnancy as there was constant worry there was something wrong with the baby. At the ultrasound, they detected abnormalities within the spine and vertebrae but they could not make a firm diagnosis as they simply did not know what was wrong. She had to travel long distances for level 2 ultrasounds and going into the birth she had no clue what they were going to find. She wanted another cesarean because she was worried she hadn't healed properly after the first one and was also worried about the impact a vaginal birth could have on my brother's potential spine problems. The doctor refused (this was in the mid 90's when VBACs were all the rage). She was induced with progesterone cream and went into labour with just that. Progress was normal until she reached full dilation at which point there was absolutely no progress during the pushing stage. The baby was OP and wouldn't rotate or come down at all. The doctor tired to manually rotate the baby despite my mother telling him to repeatedly to stop because he was hurting her so bad and then left and told the nurses to get him once the baby moved down some. After pushing for 5 hours and not being allowed narcotics during that time because the baby would be born soon and not being allowed an epidural because the anesthetist was only available on call for emergencies the OB and anesthetist came in at 06:00 and did another repeat cesarean. My brother did in fact have some issues with his spine as he has sprengal's deformity as well as fused vertebrae in his spine which is likely why he couldn't get into a good birthing position and why he couldn't negotiate his way through the pelvis.... He also now has autism and who knows whether the birth had any impact on that :shrug: But that just added on to my mom's traumatic birth experiences...... 

Then when you combine all three births together it kind of makes her comments a little more understandable. She views birth as a very negative very scary thing that you do cause you have to. 

My sister is 16 now and I'm intending on having her present for the birth of Baby Peanut primarily to care for my older ones but also to take pictures and stuff. She's excited, but the sad thing is so is my mom because she thinks that the experience is going to traumatize her into celibacy :wacko: My mom just doesn't get that birth can be a nice pleasant thing and I'm really hoping for my sister's sake that this coming birth is natural and normal and untraumatic because I would hate for her to grow up and believe that what my mom believes is in fact the only way birth can be..........


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## PeanutBean

Oh your poor mum!


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## rachiedata

What a terrible time your mum had :(


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