# Struggling with female factor infertility



## Christi85

Hi everyone,

I just signed up today, but have been following this forum for a while now. A little background: I'm 29, husband is 30 and we have been unsuccessfully trying to conceive since early 2013. We started seeing an RE this past February and have had all sorts of tests done. The good news: my husband's SA came out very good. Also, my HSG showed fully patent tubes on both sides. Now on to the bad news:
-Both my AFC and my AMH were very low for my age. AFC was 9 or 10 follicles total, and AMH was 0.96. A big shock! :cry: My FSH is still normal though.
-I've had luteal phase spotting for a very long time, but doctors would always poo-poo it. Now it turns out it's low progesterone, probably due to insufficient hormone production at ovulation. My progesterone at mid-luteal was only 6.9 :cry:
-I also have a history of ovarian cysts and endometrial polyps. Had a polyp removed via hysteroscopy in Sept. 2013, and will be having a laparoscopy to remove an ovarian cyst (RE thinks either an endometrioma or a dermoid) in the coming weeks. She will also check for and clean any endo during the laparoscopy.

Hubby and I had a meeting with the RE earlier this week to review all our tests (since the only thing we're missing is the lap results). She basically said that, if no endo is found during the laparoscopy, or if it is mild, I have a choice between IUI and IVF. If endo is found and is extensive, then IVF would be our only option with a decent chance of success. She feels I need to start treatment soon-ish despite my rather young age, given that I haven't conceived in over a year and due to my low AMH signifying I'm losing my fertility sooner than most women :nope:. She gave us just a 1-3% chance of conceiving on our own. That was another blow :cry:

Unfortunately, as with many people dealing with infertility, our problems don't just stop here: we have no infertility coverage whatsoever, less the laparoscopy that will be covered because it's considered a gyn medical problem due to my ovarian cyst - phew! But we've already paid more than $2K out of pocket for the testing alone. We could stretch to do one round of IVF, but more than that wouldn't be doable financially. And my RE was talking as if I may be needing 2-3 rounds to be successful (given that I will probably be producing less eggs than normal due to low AMH and AFC). Also, because of religious considerations, we'd rather not produce any excess embryos due to the dilemmas involved with that. My RE suggested freezing eggs and fertilizing as needed- if needed - for subsequent transfers, which is an acceptable alternative to freezing embryos, but like I said above, there's no money for more than one IVF rounds anyway. Unless we paid to freeze eggs for 2-3 years hoping to have enough saved up for another transfer then, I don't see a point in freezing them. Not to mention the fee for freezing eggs would be in addition to the IVF on an already stretched budget. AND the RE would very much recommend we do genetic testing to embryos because she feels my lower number of eggs would increase chances of some of them being abnormal/not producing healthy or even viable embryos. That in itself is another $5.5K on top of everything else :wacko: which we can't pay. So that leaves us with trying a few rounds of IUI (if my lap outlook is favorable) which is at least going to be cheaper, or - if my lap is bad - trying on our own with the gloomy 1-3% chance of ever conceiving a biological child. 

I won't even go into what my feelings are. Most of you know exactly how this feels - the ups and downs, and highs and lows, and the smallest things triggering emotions just as you're thinking that you have this under control and are starting to feel a little optimistic. Especially those of you who have been given bad news as to your chances of successfully conceiving can feel me, I'm sure. This is partly a venting thread and partly an invitation to share similar experiences, thoughts, maybe even success stories etc.

Thank you for reading!


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## Coolstar

I totally feel you. I have endo and my amh is very low .9 . I have gone through one round of ivf and it failed. Due to my low amh (I am 32) doc is suggesting me donor egg. My dh is perfectly fine and I feel really bad for him. Hope you don't have endo. Sending you lots of luck.


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## Christi85

Thank you Coolstar. I too hope I don't have endo (my laparoscopy has now been scheduled for mid May, so I should know soon). I'm very depressed with my rock bottom AMH as it is - I was prepared for a lot of possible problems, but diminished ovarian reserve at such a young age never crossed my mind :cry:
Are you considering donor eggs? Also, I see in your signature that you did 3 Clomid rounds: did stim with Clomid work for you? My doctor seems to think that, if I don't have endo (or if it's mild) my response to just Clomid for IUI should be fine, as we only need 2-3 eggs for IUI.
Also, how was your response to the IVF stim? Apologies for the multiple questions.
All the best to you too!


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## Coolstar

Christi85 said:


> Thank you Coolstar. I too hope I don't have endo (my laparoscopy has now been scheduled for mid May, so I should know soon). I'm very depressed with my rock bottom AMH as it is - I was prepared for a lot of possible problems, but diminished ovarian reserve at such a young age never crossed my mind :cry:
> Are you considering donor eggs? Also, I see in your signature that you did 3 Clomid rounds: did stim with Clomid work for you? My doctor seems to think that, if I don't have endo (or if it's mild) my response to just Clomid for IUI should be fine, as we only need 2-3 eggs for IUI.
> Also, how was your response to the IVF stim? Apologies for the multiple questions.
> All the best to you too!

I know what you are going through :hugs: , last few days I am so depressed and I just keep on crying :cry: . How much is your amh ? But there are many ladies who got bfp with low amh. Clomid did not work for me in fact it harmed me more. I did not respond well during the ivf. Just 3 eggs retrieved and 2 fertilized. My endo has reduced a lot and my simple cyst is gone which is a good thing but because of my low amh they are telling me about donor. More then the endo it is the low amh which is an issue for me. At present my doc told me to take 3 months of suppression injection and then she will give me some stimulating meds for 3 months and try naturally. I have to pray for a miracle for something to happen, if nothing I am planning to go for a ivf cycle next year. It's very difficult to let go of your biological link :( . I have not decided what to do. Will take a decision end of the year.


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## Christi85

Coolstar said:


> Christi85 said:
> 
> 
> Thank you Coolstar. I too hope I don't have endo (my laparoscopy has now been scheduled for mid May, so I should know soon). I'm very depressed with my rock bottom AMH as it is - I was prepared for a lot of possible problems, but diminished ovarian reserve at such a young age never crossed my mind :cry:
> Are you considering donor eggs? Also, I see in your signature that you did 3 Clomid rounds: did stim with Clomid work for you? My doctor seems to think that, if I don't have endo (or if it's mild) my response to just Clomid for IUI should be fine, as we only need 2-3 eggs for IUI.
> Also, how was your response to the IVF stim? Apologies for the multiple questions.
> All the best to you too!
> 
> I know what you are going through :hugs: , last few days I am so depressed and I just keep on crying :cry: . How much is your amh ? But there are many ladies who got bfp with low amh. Clomid did not work for me in fact it harmed me more. I did not respond well during the ivf. Just 3 eggs retrieved and 2 fertilized. My endo has reduced a lot and my simple cyst is gone which is a good thing but because of my low amh they are telling me about donor. More then the endo it is the low amh which is an issue for me. At present my doc told me to take 3 months of suppression injection and then she will give me some stimulating meds for 3 months and try naturally. I have to pray for a miracle for something to happen, if nothing I am planning to go for a ivf cycle next year. It's very difficult to let go of your biological link :( . I have not decided what to do. Will take a decision end of the year.Click to expand...

My AMH was 0.96 last month when I tested - very low for age 29. It's great that your endo is getting better though, and so is your cyst :thumbup: I know Clomid doesn't work well for many women - interestingly, my doctor seems to think Clomid may work for me in conjunction with IUI, as we only need 2-3 eggs to mature (my follicle count was 10 total on that same cycle where we tested my AMH) and my FSH is still at good, low levels. I know exactly how you feel. We certainly don't have the money for IVF now, which is why I'm praying we are able to do IUI and that it works within 2-3 rounds (after that, the savings budget may start to stretch). If not, we'll have to save up for IVF and that could take a good couple of years. By which point, my egg reserves will have tanked probably, so might as well start thinking about donor eggs too (and saving up even more :wacko:). I don't want to think about it - too many dilemmas involved. It's so unfair - I feel like we've been ripped of something that was supposed to be so natural. But we have to hang in there and persevere, and we will get there in the end one way or another :kiss:


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## Hatethewait85

Hi ladies,
Just wanted to send :hugs: and wish you both a successful 2014!

While I'm technically diagnosed as unexplained, my doc thinks I have an egg quality issue given my response to IVF. This is really hard to swallow as I too am young (28) and actually had a great AMH (4). It sucks that there's no good test for quality other than looking at them under the microscope (which I failed) but even that can vary based on month and protocol. My doc suggested a different protocol if we want to try another round of IVF but of course could give no guarantee it would or wouldn't work :nope: But she said it could 'confirm' the poor egg quality diagnosis. 11k just to tell me I have bed eggs?! :cry: If the next IVF failed, she'd suggest DE for me too. It is really unfair that something that is supposed to be completely natural and easy has to be soo hard (and not to mention expensive!). 

All this to say that I totally feel your frustrations. This completely sucks. The worst part is the unknown - should we or shouldn't we try XYZ? If I had a crystal ball that would show me it would eventually work, it would be soo much easier to handle! I have definitely shed A LOT of tears this week since finding out my FET failed. Why do our bodies have to betray us!?

Wishing you both the best :flower:


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## Coolstar

Hatethewait, I exactly know when you say the worst part is unknown :( . Wish I had a crystal ball which could tell me that can I conceive? Do I need a donor ? Sorry for your failed fet. A failed ivf/ fet is such a heartbreak and I am not even talking about the expense. I had a talk with my doc and she told me that with donor at least it will be 50% biological. With my egg the success with ivf is around 10% she said and with donor 50% to 60%. Life is so unfair. And at present I hate it so much. What are you planning to do next ?

Christi, I hope you don't have endo and move straight ahead with iui. I have seen one lady in another forum who has low amh and failed ivf but then she went ahead with iui and got bfp.I am happy that my simple cyst is gone and endo nearly gone. But they say endo can never be cured. So I am praying that my endo does not return soon :( .


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## Christi85

Hatethewait85: I'm so sorry to hear about your failed IVF. I can imagine the heartbreak is tremendous, and then it doesn't help that you're out several thousand $$. I'm sending you a big hug :hugs::hugs:
It's very interesting that they can tell about egg quality by looking at them through the microscope. My doctor never mentioned that. She says that the ultimate test for egg quality is how many fertilize and progress to day 5 etc. Sounds like you had at least some that fertilized and made it to the transfer stage. There are products out there who claim to help with egg quality, like Ovaboost. I was actually thinking of giving them a shot, as well as looking into changing my diet (which is healthy already) to include foods that help with that. I don't know what my quality is, but my doc thinks it should be fine based on me being under 35. But since I have a very low quantity for my age, I figure I need at least the best possible egg quality I can have. Since all we need at the end of the day is one good egg that will stick :hugs:

Coolstar - I know, I often wish for a crystal ball myself :shrug: It would make things so much easier. Yes, endo can unfortunately grow back in most cases. But it's good that you're suppressing it. It also depends on how extensive it is and how severe - I hear mild or even moderate endo doesn't necessarily obstruct conception, even natural conception, if there's no other problem. If it's very extensive and/or very severe, they say the only chance for pregnancy is through IVF, but again you have relatively lower chances of success :cry:. I wish you best of luck!


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## Ariannda

In reality you only need one mature egg for IUI, more eggs generally mean lower quality. Thats the difference in the days associated with clomid,it works with LSH and earlier means more eggs but not necessarily AS mature, later means lower number but greater maturity (generally speaking).

We were diagnosed with secondary infertility and when they finally gave me an HSG i had two blocked tubes. We went to see a specialist who pretty much dismissed everything I had to say and just went "We dont like doing that (any procedure to possibly open tubes) when can we sign you up for IVF?" . We couldn't afford IVF, probably not even a single cycle. Its always frustrating :(


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## Pirate

I have DOR too (AMH: .53, FSH: 9.4, AFC: 5, Estradiol: 76). I'm 32. We also have no insurance coverage for fertility treatments (though luckily we did have coverage for infertility diagnosis). The recommended treatment for us was to do an injectible/IUI cycle just to see if I responded to those (predicted poor responder), then an IVF cycle IF I responded (again, predicted poor responder) to the injectibles, and then right on to donor eggs. IUI/IVF (donor eggs or my own) weren't something that we really even considered due to financial reasons but also due to the fact I don't want to put myself through the treatment and hubs isn't comfortable "interfering with nature" to that extent. We are going to try a couple of Clomid cycles within the next couple of cycles and then be comfortable knowing that we went as far as we were willing to go. There is a different right choice for every couple, and we're comfortable that we've chosen the right choice for us.

Our RE told us that it still completely possible for us to get pregnant without treatment and that he wouldn't be surprised if we called his office and requested betas sometime in the next couple of years. I'm not as hopeful as he is, but I'm the one dealing with it every day and I can't afford to get my hopes up too high. I sincerely hope that we all end up pregnant.


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## Christi85

Ariannda - yes, with blocked fallopian tubes they usually don't want to consider anything else other than IVF. But you are currently pregnant, right (based on status and picture of twin(???) ultrasound :baby:)? Do you mind sharing some info on how you succeeded? Did you end up doing IVF?

Pirate - I read your response and then I read the first post on your new journal. I can tell you that a lot of the things you bring up are things hubby and I are discussing or have discussed on an almost daily basis. I know exactly how you feel. There's totally a limit to how far every couple is willing to go, especially if you have to pay thousands upon thousands $$ out of pocket for a 30-40% chance at best. 

As for me, ever since I received the DOR diagnosis I've been at a loss. Part of me is telling me that I shouldn't delay treatment, but then there's also this little voice in my head who is desperately trying to slow me down a bit, weigh any options I may have, not make rushed decisions (of course it will also depend on whether my lap in mid May shows endo or not). DOR felt like a death sentence, but in the past couple of days I've had times when I started feeling glimmers of hope again. Yes, I may have few follicles left in my ovaries, but all we need is one good one, right? So what if I try to balance my hormones through a healthier diet (it's already healthy but it could improve), natural progesterone cream (since I seem to produce low progesterone), and then a fair amount of positive thinking (hardest part) and possibly some acupuncture for good measure? Then if IUI ends up being an option for us, I could at least go into treatment with my health at the best possible levels, so that my chances of getting a sticky bean would be higher. Still unsure about IVF, but I feel I don't need to decide right now. So last night I went on and ordered Julia Indichova's two books: 'Inconceivable' and "Fertile Female' that seem to have raving reviews and start there (apparently she had secondary infertility, but at 42 with a 42(!!!) FSH, her ovaries were pretty much shut down and REs wouldn't even take her as a patient. So through a series of lifestyle changes and lots of positive thinking, she managed to drop her FSH down to normal levels and get pregnant again on her own about 8 months into the regimen, and went on to have a healthy baby). I felt I really need some kind of inspiration right now - someone to shake me by the shoulders and tell me that I can do this, and to stop being a Debbie Downer - I just need ONE good egg and my hormones to work the way they're supposed to! That, and I'm going to start looking into acupuncture. I will continue working with the RE too, and we'll see how that goes, but basically I'm trying to take this DOR diagnosis a little more lightly - sometimes successfully, some other times not so much. Heck, women with almost undetectable AMH get pregnant on their own!! :winkwink:


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## Hatethewait85

coolstar- A failed IVF cycle is so emotionally draining!! Did you have any frozen embryos after yours? I'm still having a hard time grasping that I may have bad quality eggs. What good is it to produce a lot of eggs if I can't find a good one!? Right now I'm delaying deciding what to do!! I think I'm going to just do acupuncture for a few months with herbs to prepare my body as best I can. I've been doing acupuncture for about 6 months and think I'm finally starting to make a teensy bit of progress. I'm also trying to get an appointment with a reproductive immunologist- filled out the paperwork today! At first I was really open to donor eggs but the more I read about donor-conceived kids the more I second guess it... I guess I just worry about how the kid will feel as they get older about not being with their genetic 'mom' :shrug: 

christi- Thanks. As for the 'microscope' test, I was really just referring to seeing how my eggs progressed through IVF. The more I read about other peoples IVF cycles the more it seems my progression wasn't that bad. I'm just not sure :shrug: Thanks for sharing info about the ovaboost. I'll have to look into that. You are right - it only takes one good egg to make a baby! Which is what's making me think of trying again... I've got to have a good egg in there somewhere, right?! I'm only 28!! Here's hoping we all find our good quality egg this year. 

Pirate- It sounds like you are taking a really practical approach. I've definitely seen a lot of 'miracles' on bnb and I hope you get to be one of them!


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## Pirate

Christi85 said:


> Pirate - I read your response and then I read the first post on your new journal. I can tell you that a lot of the things you bring up are things hubby and I are discussing or have discussed on an almost daily basis. I know exactly how you feel. There's totally a limit to how far every couple is willing to go, especially if you have to pay thousands upon thousands $$ out of pocket for a 30-40% chance at best.
> 
> As for me, ever since I received the DOR diagnosis I've been at a loss. Part of me is telling me that I shouldn't delay treatment, but then there's also this little voice in my head who is desperately trying to slow me down a bit, weigh any options I may have, not make rushed decisions (of course it will also depend on whether my lap in mid May shows endo or not). DOR felt like a death sentence, but in the past couple of days I've had times when I started feeling glimmers of hope again. Yes, I may have few follicles left in my ovaries, but all we need is one good one, right? So what if I try to balance my hormones through a healthier diet (it's already healthy but it could improve), natural progesterone cream (since I seem to produce low progesterone), and then a fair amount of positive thinking (hardest part) and possibly some acupuncture for good measure? Then if IUI ends up being an option for us, I could at least go into treatment with my health at the best possible levels, so that my chances of getting a sticky bean would be higher. Still unsure about IVF, but I feel I don't need to decide right now. So last night I went on and ordered Julia Indichova's two books: 'Inconceivable' and "Fertile Female' that seem to have raving reviews and start there (apparently she had secondary infertility, but at 42 with a 42(!!!) FSH, her ovaries were pretty much shut down and REs wouldn't even take her as a patient. So through a series of lifestyle changes and lots of positive thinking, she managed to drop her FSH down to normal levels and get pregnant again on her own about 8 months into the regimen, and went on to have a healthy baby). I felt I really need some kind of inspiration right now - someone to shake me by the shoulders and tell me that I can do this, and to stop being a Debbie Downer - I just need ONE good egg and my hormones to work the way they're supposed to! That, and I'm going to start looking into acupuncture. I will continue working with the RE too, and we'll see how that goes, but basically I'm trying to take this DOR diagnosis a little more lightly - sometimes successfully, some other times not so much. Heck, women with almost undetectable AMH get pregnant on their own!! :winkwink:

Completely agree that there are limits for every couple, and there is a different right choice for every couple. The choice for us not to pursue IVF was made relatively quickly, and honestly it wouldn't change if we had insurance coverage and/or unlimited financial resources. It's completely natural to be a Debbie Downer. For the first couple of weeks after my diagnosis I walked around in a haze. I could barely function. I'm doing a bit better now, but I still have my days. It's completely possible for ladies like us to get pregnant. AMH is a quantitative measure of number of eggs left, but is not predictive of quality. We're both young so it's totally possible. Personally I'm not holding my breath though.



Hatethewait85 said:


> Pirate- It sounds like you are taking a really practical approach. I've definitely seen a lot of 'miracles' on bnb and I hope you get to be one of them!

We (hubs and me) are practical and logical, sometimes to a fault. I hope we all get our miracles!


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## Christi85

Pirate - I officially started following your journal. I'm intrigued to read more about your journey :hugs:

Hatethewait85 - I've thought about donor egg kids too. But to me, that's not much different to adoption (which, btw, is a possibility we may look into in the future). Except with donor eggs, the child is only genetically linked to their egg donor, but their mom is the one who has actually carried them through pregnancy, provided nourishment through her own body, given birth to them, breastfed them from day 1 etc. so the bond is there right from the start. And they're genetically linked to their father. With adoption, while bonding is perfectly possible and happens in most cases, the child has no genetic or birth links with anyone in their adoptive family, which, in my book, makes it more likely that they may suffer some sort of an identity crisis later. With donor eggs, the child is born through and is raised by their birth parents. Either way, consulting with a specialist on the most age appropriate ways to bring these issues up with a donor egg/adopted child is a must, and maybe even an ongoing need over time. I'd be lying if I said I haven't been thinking about donor eggs lately. My husband is less warm than I am on the whole IVF/DE IVF idea, mainly because of the ethical dilemmas of possible unused embryos (which, if doing IVF with my own eggs, may not even be the case :nope:). The way I see it, I could consider donating any excess embryos to other infertile couples, which is a bit freak-ish, but all other options make me much more uncomfortable. There's a few things I like about DE IVF versus regular IVF using my own eggs: 1)my ovarian challenges would stop being an issue, and the chances of success would be very high, as all that matters is the donor's age and healthy eggs, 2) that would eliminate the pressure I'm feeling to possibly proceed to treatment soon when we don't have the funds, just because my ovarian reserve may drop even lower at any point. Going with DE would at least allow us to save up for 2-3 years, even put some money in an investment program for a better return, and go in for the treatment when we were truly ready for it emotionally, and more comfortable financially, 3) this would also allow us to buy ourselves time to keep trying on our own with or without medication, or even try lower key/cheaper treatment if suitable (e.g. IUI), without any pressure. You never know - it could work :winkwink: 4) last but not least, I can't ignore the financial aspect of it. If I have to pay $12K or more for only a moderate chance of it working and a high chance we may need additional tries (which would increase the expense) because of my eggs - doctor said 8-10 eggs is the best I can hope for with maximum stim :wacko:, and even then, not all may be mature enough :wacko:, this makes me very nervous. What's even worse for me, because of my DOR, I'm never going to be approved for a refund program in case of an unsuccessful outcome. So we're footing the entire bill for a procedure with dubious results. With donor eggs though, not only is the chance of success much higher (there are clinics in the broader Southern California area where I live with over 70% pregnancy rates with donor eggs and over 60% live birth rates), but the criteria for a refund are much more lenient. So, even though it can cost up to $10K more than a regular IVF cycle (much less than that with frozen eggs), we shouldn't be needing more than 1-2 tries to be successful. Plus we'd be doing it at our own time when the funds were available. And in the off chance we still aren't successful, we can at least get a refund for most of the money, and use it to go off on a fancy exotic vacation to ease our pain :haha:
Obviously, I'm half joking, but you see what I mean. I'm still set on improving my lifestyle and diet for now and see if that makes any difference at all, so I'm looking forward to getting my books in the mail and starting a regimen. I still think there's a chance we may conceive on our own, and if my lap is clear of endo, I'm definitely giving IUI a couple tries - at least to say that I did try.


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## Pirate

Donor eggs are a great option for a lot of couples. My RE even said that donor eggs were the most efficient way to get from not pregnant to pregnant and that he's had great success in helping couples start families with donor eggs.

For hubs and I the decision not to pursue donor eggs was easy. We want a child to be genetically ours. Yes, I can be a mother to any child (biological ours, only genetically tied to my husband, adopted, etc.), but if I'm going to go through pregnancy, labor, childbirth, I want the child to be genetically mine. That may sound selfish, but it's my perspective. For the record I have no issues with donor egg IVF, couples that chose this route, etc. It's just not the right path for us.

DOR sucks!


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## Christi85

Pirate said:


> Donor eggs are a great option for a lot of couples. My RE even said that donor eggs were the most efficient way to get from not pregnant to pregnant and that he's had great success in helping couples start families with donor eggs.
> 
> For hubs and I the decision not to pursue donor eggs was easy. We want a child to be genetically ours. Yes, I can be a mother to any child (biological ours, only genetically tied to my husband, adopted, etc.), but if I'm going to go through pregnancy, labor, childbirth, I want the child to be genetically mine. That may sound selfish, but it's my perspective. For the record I have no issues with donor egg IVF, couples that chose this route, etc. It's just not the right path for us.
> 
> DOR sucks!

Yup, it sucks big time! 

I don't think the way you're thinking is selfish. Again, it all comes down to our personal limits, priorities etc. Heck, I've been struggling with the thought that considering donor eggs as a future alternative is selfish vs. adoption that seems much more selfless. With adoption, life is already there (in birth mom's tummy or already out in the world) and usually needs a home because their birth parents can't/don't want to take care of them. Whereas with DE, you go into so much effort, even recruiting a donor and paying all this money to create life that wouldn't have existed otherwise. It's a thought that sometimes makes me feel bad about myself, almost guilty, but at the end of the day, we have to go with our gut and what our heart tells us. One thing that infertility has taught me was to not judge other people's reproductive decisions. And I think every woman who has been humbled by infertility has learned to be less critical of others' decisions. Usually people who are critical are those who never dealt with a similar situation themselves, and usually those least educated about the issue. I've yet to meet/talk to one person who has gone through infertility, woman or man, who doesn't 'get it'. That says a lot.


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## Pirate

You never truly know what you will or won't consider until you are put in the position of it being your best option. Hubs and I said we'd never even consider IVF and low and behold, when faced with that being probably the only way we will be able to get pregnant, we seriously considered it and weighed all of our options. I know that we made a decision that we'll be able to live with in 5, 10, 20 years.


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## Hatethewait85

You guys are soo right about not knowing what lengths you'd go through until you are forced to make that decision. I never imagined doing IVF and hear I am thinking about doing it AGAIN! I've definitely learned not to judge anyone in this situation. After seeing how many times I've changed my mind over the years, I know no one in these shoes takes any decision lightly. We are all doing what we think is best for us. 

Christi- I agree about donor eggs not being much different than adoption and in the end you have to trust your gut. I even read a bit about epigenetics (how the mom carrying the child can influence what genes are expressed) and think it's totally cool. Donor eggs are really a good choice for a lot of people and can be very successful. I think my clinic gives 70-75% chance of success... although I was given 65% chance at first so I'm not sure what to think of that! I'm leaning towards adoption for now if my own eggs won't get me pregnant but I'm keeping DE IVF in my back pocket if the adoption road gets to bumpy- Like you said, my age becomes less important so I can wait awhile before I need to pursue that. That's cool about the refund, I don't think my clinic has that (or at least my fs didn't mention that when we talked about the process). When's your lap set up again? I hope things look good for an IUI to start- it'd be a good way to see how you respond to meds, too! I know someone who apparently had DOR (low AMH < 1) but ended up getting 40+ follicles when she stimmed for IVF!!!!! She ended up having a chemical but how crazy is that?! 

Pirate- I agree with Christi. It's definitely not selfish to want a genetic link to anything you have to push out! It's natural instinct! Practical is a good thing to be in this situation. I have a hard time not letting my emotions get in the way of practical thinking when it comes to this. But normally, in non-ttc things I am very practical! So it's good that you and your husband are able to remain level-headed. 

I met with my acupuncturist last night. I'm going to give herbs/acupuncture a good try for now. I figure since western medicine has failed me I might as well give TCM a good shot. She also suggested coq10 and magnesium supplements as possible egg quality enhancers so I'll probably order some of those to add to my prenatal. Herbs make me a bit nervous but I'm just going to try to have faith in the process. My acupuncturist mentioned having a number of couples fail IVF and ART who she's worked with for over a year with herbs/acupuncture and some of them conceive naturally (and others through ART). So it at least sounds promising... Have you guys ever done anything like that?


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## Christi85

Hatethewait85 said:


> You guys are soo right about not knowing what lengths you'd go through until you are forced to make that decision. I never imagined doing IVF and hear I am thinking about doing it AGAIN! I've definitely learned not to judge anyone in this situation. After seeing how many times I've changed my mind over the years, I know no one in these shoes takes any decision lightly. We are all doing what we think is best for us.
> 
> Christi- I agree about donor eggs not being much different than adoption and in the end you have to trust your gut. I even read a bit about epigenetics (how the mom carrying the child can influence what genes are expressed) and think it's totally cool. Donor eggs are really a good choice for a lot of people and can be very successful. I think my clinic gives 70-75% chance of success... although I was given 65% chance at first so I'm not sure what to think of that! I'm leaning towards adoption for now if my own eggs won't get me pregnant but I'm keeping DE IVF in my back pocket if the adoption road gets to bumpy- Like you said, my age becomes less important so I can wait awhile before I need to pursue that. That's cool about the refund, I don't think my clinic has that (or at least my fs didn't mention that when we talked about the process). When's your lap set up again? I hope things look good for an IUI to start- it'd be a good way to see how you respond to meds, too! I know someone who apparently had DOR (low AMH < 1) but ended up getting 40+ follicles when she stimmed for IVF!!!!! She ended up having a chemical but how crazy is that?!
> 
> Pirate- I agree with Christi. It's definitely not selfish to want a genetic link to anything you have to push out! It's natural instinct! Practical is a good thing to be in this situation. I have a hard time not letting my emotions get in the way of practical thinking when it comes to this. But normally, in non-ttc things I am very practical! So it's good that you and your husband are able to remain level-headed.
> 
> I met with my acupuncturist last night. I'm going to give herbs/acupuncture a good try for now. I figure since western medicine has failed me I might as well give TCM a good shot. She also suggested coq10 and magnesium supplements as possible egg quality enhancers so I'll probably order some of those to add to my prenatal. Herbs make me a bit nervous but I'm just going to try to have faith in the process. My acupuncturist mentioned having a number of couples fail IVF and ART who she's worked with for over a year with herbs/acupuncture and some of them conceive naturally (and others through ART). So it at least sounds promising... Have you guys ever done anything like that?

My lap was originally set for 5/16, then got pushed back for 5/22. Assistant surgeon not available on the 16th or something like that. Then I realized the 22nd is the Thursday before Memorial Day weekend and got annoyed that I may be spending my long weekend recovering instead of playing. But I decided against calling the clinic to reschedule it because I want it done asap, and rescheduling would likely mean having it even later.

I'd be very interested to hear about your progress with acupuncture and herbs, so keep us posted. Still waiting for my books, but I fully plan on going much more natural once I get them and following their advice. Acupuncture is also a real possibility for me, either by itself or combined with fertility treatments. Anything that could naturally help my hormones and the quality of my eggs. Just this morning I was reading about long term side effects of fertility drug over-use (even Clomid, I had no idea they don't let you take it for more than 6 cycles) and got a little scared. I so wish it was easy for us!

As for DE, I've been researching about it all week. I think if my eggs make it impossible (and I still don't even know if we'd be doing IVF), it will have to be either that or adoption. I'm also starting to lean heavily towards doing IVF abroad, if it comes down to that. Same with DE IVF if it comes down to that. I'm originally from Greece and my family is there. Even with the exchange rate, regular IVF there is less than 1/2 of what it costs here and DE IVF is at 1/3 of the cost, and fertility clinics are equally as good, with doctors usually trained in Europe and the US. I'd be stupid not to go down that route if we decide to go into the 'hard core' treatments. There is no refund provision there though, so you do take a higher risk.


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## Christi85

Oh yes, and how did I forget that?? Woman with DOR produced 40 eggs with stim????? I didn't even know that was possible :shrug:
My doctor has been telling me I'll be having 8-10 eggs max, pretty much the number of follicles I had on my AFC (I had 9 or 10 on day 3, total on both ovaries) and that's assuming all will grow to maturity. I was reading recently that some women have a clinical image of DOR when that isn't actually the case. Simply put, their body is just too lazy to recruit enough follicles, but the follicles are there, just 'dormant'. So with stimulation, it is possible for some women to actually grow many more eggs than anticipated. Maybe that was your friend's case. Really interesting though - not something you hear every day :shrug:


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## Hatethewait85

Ugh. Bummer they had to push back your lap. Hopefully they don't find much of anything and you recover nice and quick! I have a wedding to go to that weekend and I'm kind of bummed it takes up my long weekend... how selfish of me!!

I've seen a lot of women on here do MANY more cycles of clomid than what's recommended and I always wonder why? Too scary to go past the recommended 6 in my opinion. I only did 4 cycles before I gave up on that. 

I'll be sure to keep you updated on herbs/acupuncture. I just ordered some of the vitamins my acupuncturist recommended (food-based prenatal, DHA, magnesium, and coq10) this morning and they should get here on Monday. She's making a custom herb mix (if I remember correctly I'll mix it in water?? not sure) so I will hopefully get that when I go in for acupuncture Thursday. There's a lot of good data to support acupuncture with fertility treatment, I just haven't been successful yet. :nope: My acupuncturist has been itching to get me on herbs since I started seeing her but my fs wouldn't let me take any (and I wasn't really open to it anyway at that point). I was thisclose to buying ovaboost, but ended up not doing it for now. I thought I'd stick to the herbs and supplements my acupuncturist recommended for now and think about it in a few months if I'm still delaying my IVF. 

You'll have to let us know if you find any really good info in your books etc. I came across another thread somewhere recommending those books too.

I've seen how much cheaper it can be to do IVF in another country. I just don't think I could justify the time away/off work. But it'd be a cool way to see another country if you can make it work. 

It's interesting what you read about DOR being too 'lazy.' Maybe that is what happened with my friend. In any case, they were all surprised at her response!


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## Coolstar

Hatethewait, I don't have any frozen embryos. Had 3 retrieved, 2 fertilized and transferred. None left. It's good that you have started with acupuncture, alternative treatment do helps many time. Are you planning to go for next ivf soon?
Christi, sorry your lap got postponed. Doing ivf overseas is a good idea specially since you have your family in Greece.


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## Hatethewait85

Coolstar said:


> Hatethewait, I don't have any frozen embryos. Had 3 retrieved, 2 fertilized and transferred. None left. It's good that you have started with acupuncture, alternative treatment do helps many time. Are you planning to go for next ivf soon?
> Christi, sorry your lap got postponed. Doing ivf overseas is a good idea specially since you have your family in Greece.

Sorry to hear you weren't able to have any leftover for FET. I hope you get your natural BFP though while you wait! Have you ever thought of doing acupuncture?

I'll do my next IVF in a few months (thinking August-ish) as long as my acupuncturist feels I've made enough progress. She said some couples she's had to work with for more than a year before they were 'ready to try again'. I don't really want to delay IVF that long but I also want to make sure my body is in the best state possible before going through that again.


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## Christi85

Hatethewait85 said:


> I'll be sure to keep you updated on herbs/acupuncture. I just ordered some of the vitamins my acupuncturist recommended (food-based prenatal, DHA, magnesium, and coq10) this morning and they should get here on Monday. She's making a custom herb mix (if I remember correctly I'll mix it in water?? not sure) so I will hopefully get that when I go in for acupuncture Thursday. There's a lot of good data to support acupuncture with fertility treatment, I just haven't been successful yet. :nope: My acupuncturist has been itching to get me on herbs since I started seeing her but my fs wouldn't let me take any (and I wasn't really open to it anyway at that point). I was thisclose to buying ovaboost, but ended up not doing it for now. I thought I'd stick to the herbs and supplements my acupuncturist recommended for now and think about it in a few months if I'm still delaying my IVF.
> 
> You'll have to let us know if you find any really good info in your books etc. I came across another thread somewhere recommending those books too.
> 
> I've seen how much cheaper it can be to do IVF in another country. I just don't think I could justify the time away/off work. But it'd be a cool way to see another country if you can make it work.

Yes, do keep us posted about how it goes with your herbs. I've never taken Ovaboost and don't endorse it (since I have no experience with it), but I have read many good reviews. Same for me, I'm keeping it in mind for later.

My books are due to arrive Wednesday - can't wait :happydance:

As for doing IVF abroad, in my case it wouldn't exactly be seeing another country, as I was born and raised in Greece until I was 22, and my whole family is there. The reason I'm in the US is because I married a US citizen, but I've been visiting Greece once a year (not sure what will happen this year though - too caught up with the fertility stuff). So nothing new for me to see there :winkwink: but definitely a familiar environment, no language barriers with the doctors, being among family and friends etc. All good in my book. The cost there comes out to about $5,000 all included for a fresh IVF cycle (and about half that for a frozen cycle), and about $8,000 for DE IVF. Of course the flights are extra, but we'd be going anyway to visit, and we won't have accommodation costs, since we always stay at my parents' home. I do hear you about work. I'm self employed and have a flexible schedule, so I could possibly spend 1-2 months there, but if I don't work, I don't get paid, so it's not like I can spend an unlimited amount of time away from my business. As for my husband, he can only take 2 weeks off work. If we decided to go down that route, I don't expect the logistical planning to be easy. But the savings would be worth it I hope :flower:


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## Pirate

I didn't even know that international IVF/donor egg IVF was an option. The cost savings is amazing! I know it would take a lot of planning but it seems like it could really work out.


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## Hatethewait85

Oh yes! I forgot you said you had family in Greece! :dohh: That would make it a bit easier logistically speaking and 'more affordable' in the sense that you'd a) be going there anyway and b) won't have lodging costs. That's awesome! I've never seen the cost spelled out like that either - sooo much less expensive to do it in Greece. My fresh cycle + FET was 11K + meds (< 3k?)... It's a bit depressing to type it out like that! For DE IVF my doc said it was about 22K + meds, but that includes up to 3 FET ( I think that's what she said). Anyway you slice it the cost savings definitely makes it a great idea for you. I have no overseas connection so the cost would add up pretty fast for me! Hopefully your lifestyle focus right now will get you your BFP soon.


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## Pirate

@Hatethewait, I just noticed the dog in your avatar pic! Adorable! (I'm totally a crazy dog lady!)


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## Hatethewait85

Thanks Pirate!! I'm a crazy dog lady too. :) That's Riley - hubs and I call her our 'redneck' as she hails from Kentucky (hopefully no one takes offense to that!!). She's some sort of hound mix and I love her to pieces even though she's a bit of a spaz! We've had her just over 2 years and we've been taking her to doggy daycare every day since because she has so much energy.... oops, not sure you wanted all this information about my dog :haha: Once I get started I can't stop! Told you I'm a crazy dog lady. I assume you have a dog, too?


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## Pirate

Hatethewait85 said:


> Thanks Pirate!! I'm a crazy dog lady too. :) That's Riley - hubs and I call her our 'redneck' as she hails from Kentucky (hopefully no one takes offense to that!!). She's some sort of hound mix and I love her to pieces even though she's a bit of a spaz! We've had her just over 2 years and we've been taking her to doggy daycare every day since because she has so much energy.... oops, not sure you wanted all this information about my dog :haha: Once I get started I can't stop! Told you I'm a crazy dog lady. I assume you have a dog, too?

We do have a dog! He's a 5.5 year old Weimaraner that we rescued from an animal shelter on the Indiana/Ohio border when he was 14 weeks old. I feel you on the energy level, though Ziggie seems to be a ton calmer than he was when he was younger. We usually only need to do daycare two days a week now. :haha:


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## Christi85

My books came in the mail yesterday! :happydance:
At last! Can't wait to start reading them.


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## Pirate

Yay! Happy reading!


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## Hatethewait85

Pirate- I love Weimaraners (even though I struggle to say that!!). Bet he's a total cutie! As of next week we are trying to cut Riley down to just 3 days a week for doggy daycare. Hubs is going to use it as motivation for him to take her running. We'll see how she does! Rescue dogs are the best though! :thumbup:

Christi- Yay for new reading material :happydance: Enjoy!

AFM- A few days into the herbs and I haven't noticed much of anything... not sure if I'm supposed to notice something by now or not. Have my first acu session tonight since starting so I guess I'll see what she says. Also finally got on the schedule to see the reproductive immunologist. Her first available appointment isn't until the end of July :dohh: Crazy. Also, I have to be sure AF isn't visiting for the appointment. My cycles are somewhat variable and have been anywhere from 29-33 days, so I have a hard time knowing exactly when she'll be here. AND AF typically hangs around for far too long (5-7 days :growlmad:) so based on my math it's possible she'll be here then... but it's just as possible she won't be if my cycles are on the shorter side. Plus the addition of the herbs makes it even more of a challenge because they may change my cycle too. So, when I was on the phone with the scheduler I asked if it would be a problem to take bcp if needed to make sure things were fine and her response "we don't give medical advice." Seriously?! I'm not asking you to prescribe it. I just want to know if it will interfere with the testing!! GRR. Oh well. I guess we'll just have to see what happens. I'm secretly hoping to fall pregnant naturally before then :haha: Don't worry, I won't hold my breath!


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## Christi85

Hatethewait85 said:


> AFM- A few days into the herbs and I haven't noticed much of anything... not sure if I'm supposed to notice something by now or not. Have my first acu session tonight since starting so I guess I'll see what she says. Also finally got on the schedule to see the reproductive immunologist. Her first available appointment isn't until the end of July :dohh: Crazy. Also, I have to be sure AF isn't visiting for the appointment. My cycles are somewhat variable and have been anywhere from 29-33 days, so I have a hard time knowing exactly when she'll be here. AND AF typically hangs around for far too long (5-7 days :growlmad:) so based on my math it's possible she'll be here then... but it's just as possible she won't be if my cycles are on the shorter side. Plus the addition of the herbs makes it even more of a challenge because they may change my cycle too. So, when I was on the phone with the scheduler I asked if it would be a problem to take bcp if needed to make sure things were fine and her response "we don't give medical advice." Seriously?! I'm not asking you to prescribe it. I just want to know if it will interfere with the testing!! GRR. Oh well. I guess we'll just have to see what happens. I'm secretly hoping to fall pregnant naturally before then :haha: Don't worry, I won't hold my breath!

Ugh, everything has to be complicated, doesn't it? :nope:
Any chance you can go to another reproductive immunologist who can see you sooner? I bet she's probably very good though, if her waiting times are 3 months. She must be in very high demand. The herbs will probably take some time to make a difference - even a few months. I'd say just give it some time and see how it goes, and if you have concerns, definitely talk to your naturopath. They're there to help us! Maybe it's worth consulting your RE or your regular OB/GYN about bcp. I've no clue what reproductive immunologists do, but even if you were on your period when you saw her, would it be that bad? As in, would she do certain tests that require you not to be on your period, or is it just for you to feel more comfortable in case she did a physical? Sorry, I'm totally clueless :blush:


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## Ariannda

I totally dropped the ball here, sorry. 

My story is a bit easier than what you all are facing im afraid. We didn't want to do IVF, mostly because of cost. My DH has no interest in adoption,im slightly put off because im adopted but I understand where he's coming from 

I scheduled a tubal recannulization which is like a cardiac cath procedure where they use a flexible spring to poke open your tubes, it's done by a cardiologist (which is why fertility specialists dont discuss it, it doesn't benefit them). He actually dida secondary HSG and after they deposited the dye he inserted a cardiac cath balloon past my cervix and inflated it. BAM dye in the tubes with spillage on the right. They couldn't determine if the left was open or blocked at the ovary however. 

We went to see an RE and I'd happened to take Clomid that cycle, in Feb and they started me right then. I had 4 follicles, 2 dominant on the left and 2 smaller on the right. We went ahead and did the IUI not knowing if the left tube was blocked because "you could always release an egg on the right and conceive as well". It didn't work. They upped my Clomid to 100mg and added a trigger shot, we did the IUI and there you go.

In the end it seems so simple, but we ttc for almost 3 years with everything appearing to be normal, it's really hard to get pregnant without an egg coming out of the tube ! Our RE was at the local University and they were AMAZING. They took everything i'd already had done and made several suggestions. We were going to change tactics after March because I dont want to pay for something OOP that has the smallest chance of working (ie ovulation on the left, which is blocked). Also given my husbands sperm issues we felt more targets were a better option, I actually had no idea i'd actually end up pregnant with twins. My husband had just come to the conclusion that he just wasn't going to have children of his own, you can imagine how thrilled HE is, i have to have a twin pregnancy ;)

Also my RE gave me VERY clear statistics. Couples with zero issues have a 20% chance of conceiving every month. Couples with both male and female factors can have the same success rates with IUI, depending on the issues. Low sperm count or motility ? the wash helps take out the bad sperm, and it takes 1 sperm and 1 egg, so they'll do an IUI with as little as 1mill sperm post wash. Ovulatory problems ? They'll work with stimming and ovulation induction as well as progesterone, etc to figure out why conception isn't happening, AND why a pregnancy isn't progressing in the case of failure, as there's a difference between failure to conceive and failure to implant, carry etc. If you're not satisfied with where you are, go elsewhere. Also our insurance covered infertility (testing, diagnosis and some medications) but not fertility. We used our entire deductible (which we havent been billed for yet lol) at the RE in 2 months basically, so now everything else will run us 10%. I did pay OOP for clomid, and trigger shots etc but they weren't terribly expensive. Different pharmacies charge differently for meds, especially fertility meds. Also clinics will charge varying prices so it may pay to "shop around" until you find a price and clinic you like

For what it's worth I understand how people feel about donor eggs, but genetics isn't what makes you love a child. For me, i'd have done donor eggs in a heartbeat as Im still the one to carry the child, but thats just me.


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## Hatethewait85

Apparently this RI is very good and I'm in no hurry so I don't mind waiting to see what she has to say. I may call to see if I can get on a waiting list for canceled appointments (although my guess is not many people cancel- unless AF is in town!). I know they will do an internal ultrasound with a really fancy ultrasound probe that can actually evaluate how blood is flowing to the ovaries, uterus, etc. I know they can do internal ultrasounds while bleeding, but not sure if it will affect their evaluation of the blood flow? who knows. My acupuncturist isn't sure what the herbs will do for me as she says everyone is different. So it's hard to predict. I guess if AF is in town and I need to reschedule, I will. It will just push us back until Sept/Oct or so? If it looks like she may be here I'll call and try to talk to a nurse to ask about the bcp. I'm guessing they may be more helpful than the scheduler. 

How's your book Christi? Any good advice/information to share yet?


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## Christi85

Hatethewait85 said:


> Apparently this RI is very good and I'm in no hurry so I don't mind waiting to see what she has to say. I may call to see if I can get on a waiting list for canceled appointments (although my guess is not many people cancel- unless AF is in town!). I know they will do an internal ultrasound with a really fancy ultrasound probe that can actually evaluate how blood is flowing to the ovaries, uterus, etc. I know they can do internal ultrasounds while bleeding, but not sure if it will affect their evaluation of the blood flow? who knows. My acupuncturist isn't sure what the herbs will do for me as she says everyone is different. So it's hard to predict. I guess if AF is in town and I need to reschedule, I will. It will just push us back until Sept/Oct or so? If it looks like she may be here I'll call and try to talk to a nurse to ask about the bcp. I'm guessing they may be more helpful than the scheduler.
> 
> How's your book Christi? Any good advice/information to share yet?

Then stick with the good RI. I'm sure she'll be able to offer some help :flower:

As for me and the books, I haven't read as much as I thought, but I'm about 1/3 done on 'Inconceivable'. I have to admit, I'm not as impressed as I thought I would be. The whole book so far has been her going from specialist to specialist (mainly western medicine doctors, but some eastern too) to no avail, and I'm just getting to the point where she just changed her diet and went completely vegan and gluten free. Which I'm not entirely sold on, as much as I believe in a healthy diet. I don't think dairy and meat protein are the source of all evil, but that's just me :winkwink: The weird part is that there is no mention of her AMH at all, which must have been extremely low at that point if her FSH shot up. And we all know the outcome - she managed to drop her FSH to normal levels and eventually got pregnant about 8 months into changing her lifestyle. Then again, her story was in the late '90s. Maybe the AMH test wasn't widely used yet back then, and at the age of 42 it is expected that the ovaries will not exactly function perfectly. The other thing to keep in mind (which I hadn't realized) is that she conceived child #1 on the first try :wacko: probably around her very late 30s/very early 40s. The story starts at the point where she is 42, her daughter is something like 15 or 17 months old, and she is trying for #2 and starts having issues. So for me, if you are around 40 and manage to conceive on your first try, you are either extremely lucky or a very fertile woman. Probably the latter. So even with FSH problems and at an 'advanced maternal age' 2 years later, your condition is probably still reversible, as proved to be the case. See what I mean? :winkwink: 
I will make sure to share any interesting points I read :thumbup:


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## Christi85

I was wondering - I know we all hate the 'just relax and it will come' attitude of many people when they hear about our TTC struggles, but in the last couple of days I've started to wonder whether it holds some truth. That's because I heard about 3(!!!) incredible stories this past weekend, and it's made me pause to think.

Here's the story: we met with a cousin who is now 37 and had her first child a few months ago. I briefly mentioned my struggles TTC (because she asked if we were thinking of having a baby at all, so I said we were, but had some issues that were making this difficult). She then went on to say that she didn't think SHE would ever have a baby of her own, as she had been getting periods VERY rarely for years, as in once every year or two :wacko: Yet she conceived naturally at 36. I had no idea about her issues, and I have to admit, what she had is a pretty darn big issue when it comes to fertility. And yet she conceived. Hmmm...:coffee:
I also knew from before that her Mom took 10 years to conceive her :wacko: (hmm again - hereditary?), although at that time, they just kept trying and trying until it came. They never went to see a doctor or anything. After they had her, her little sister came rather easily two years later.

Then she proceeded to tell me about two of her friends. One didn't seemingly have anything too wrong going on with her, but since she was past her mid 30s she was starting to freak out that she had missed the boat to have kids. She kept panicking for 2 years and struggling with these thoughts, and she never fell pregnant in those 2 years. Then she went to a homeopath (hmmm again :winkwink:) and they managed to calm her down and get the negativity out of her. A couple months later, she was pregnant and now has a healthy baby.
The other story is more similar to ours: another friend of my cousin's being told that she had zero or close to zero chances of having a baby on her own (not sure what her issue was). This sounds very familiar. Long story short, she didn't want to do fertility treatments (or couldn't afford it), so she kinda got into terms with the idea that she wouldn't be a Mom and moved on. Sure enough, some time later she fell pregnant on her own.

I know we are all told stories like that from time to time, but I'm starting to wonder if part of the 'relax' argument might be true. Could it be that we panic and stress so much about having children and/or having X or Y or Z problem that hurts our fertility that we convince ourselves that we can't do it on our own? And then our stress continues with our fertility treatments, next steps, financial worries, since treatment costs so much and is not guaranteed etc. etc. I know I am guilty of that to an extent. Whether it hurts my fertility or not is a different story and I can't know for sure, but if I had a crystal ball and that crystal ball told me to...relax and it would come, could I just overcome my issues by relaxing and adopting a more positive/relaxed attitude? 

Don't mind my ramblings. I'm just wondering about a lot of things lately. And I may change my mind, but right now I don't feel like I want to do anything treatment-wise. Ugh! :wacko:


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## Pirate

My grandma and grandpa tried (I assume-neither are around to provide the answer, but they were married in 1940 and my dad wasn't born until 1953) for years and didn't have and luck and then got pregnant when my grandma was 38 and had him at 39. 

I always said that I don't want to get pregnant any older than 35 and hubs has said that he doesn't want to have a baby older than 40. I'll be 34 next month and he turned 37 today, so at most we will be NTNP (no sense in actually trying given my asshat ovaries) for two more years. Then, I don't know what. Hubs will probably get a vasectomy.


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## Christi85

Pirate said:


> My grandma and grandpa tried (I assume-neither are around to provide the answer, but they were married in 1940 and my dad wasn't born until 1953) for years and didn't have and luck and then got pregnant when my grandma was 38 and had him at 39.
> 
> I always said that I don't want to get pregnant any older than 35 and hubs has said that he doesn't want to have a baby older than 40. I'll be 34 next month and he turned 37 today, so at most we will be NTNP (no sense in actually trying given my asshat ovaries) for two more years. Then, I don't know what. Hubs will probably get a vasectomy.

See, people of that generation didn't use to talk about those kinds of things and would usually suffer in silence. But that goes to show you that infertility has always been there for some people (same with my aunt that I mentioned, and other couples I know of who eventually had kids, but had to try for years). It does feel it's more prevalent now than it used to be, but it could simply be that people nowadays are more open about it.

I know how you feel about life plans, Pirate. For years I used to say that I wanted to have at least one child by the age of 30, and we started trying 2 months before I turned 28 - so at that time, it felt completely feasible. Well, that hasn't happened so far, and unless I got pregnant this month or next month (quite unlikely with my scheduled surgery), I would already be 30 by the time I had the baby, best case scenario (assuming I did conceive within the next year). However, you know what I'm saying now? Life plans can change, and that is fine. Even if I have a baby in my 30s - even my mid or late 30s, so freaking what? Would that make me less happy because my original life plan didn't materialize? Of course not! If anything, I will be even happier when it comes, because with all the infertility stuff I'm going through, I'll be able to appreciate it better. It is up to each one of us to decide whether they want to stick to the original plan of course, and if that's what you think is best for you, by all means. But what I'm trying to say is, if your original plan doesn't work out, go with Plan B, and don't rule out the possibility of a later pregnancy either. I hope this doesn't offend you - it's not my intention :flower:


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## Pirate

No offense taken! Hubs and I are pretty logical and rational. 40 for him is a line in the sand of sorts, and I'm completely supportive of that. I don't want to be an older mother either.


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## Hatethewait85

Sorry the book hasn't been exactly what you expected, Christi. Bummer.. Hopefully there are a few good nuggets of information in there though!

There are a lot of great anecdotes out there about people who conceive when they finally move on so to speak. Maybe we should work on finding that crystal ball. I think it would be the answer to all of our problems :haha:

My acupuncturist was telling my husband about an older woman they worked with who had IVF and only got a few eggs and nothing of good quality. After working together (diet/herbs/acu) for over a year, she tried IVF again and got 25 eggs! So crazy how much that stuff can make a difference!

I always thought I'd have my first kid by the time I was 28 and be done having kids by 32. Now I'll just be lucky to have A kid by the time I'm 32! I'm such a planner and I hate when things don't go according to plan. I am slowly learning to adapt... But I definitely don't want to be an old mom - I wanted to retire early and enjoy those years without worrying about my kids finishing college, getting married, etc. Just take one day at a time I guess...


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## Christi85

Hi all,

Survived Mother's Day (it was actually pretty uneventful) but I still got the blues. On top of that, my cycle has gone crazy. I had a painful, heavy-ish period that just didn't end. I'm now on CD13 and still spotting and uterus feeling quite bloated. At my last ultrasound the doctor thought I had signs of adenomyosis in my uterus (the opposite of endometriosis - but they often go hand in had, and we are suspecting my ovarian cyst is an endometrioma) and these symptoms could actually be explained perfectly by adenomyosis. Most common symptoms are very long periods, bloated feeling in uterus and sometimes painful intercourse (luckily, not the case, but I do have the first two). Another reason could be my actual cyst causing all this. I feel really disappointed. I've always had mid cycle spotting problems, possiibly due to low progesterone, but that would usually occur closer to the start of new AF and not like this. I hadn't had this in a long time, so now I'm feeling like my body is giving me new symptoms every day. Also, I know I'm driving myself crazy, but if it is adenomyosis, then my chances of carrying a pregnancy to term would also be worse than normal. What more??

I have my pre-op appointment with my doctor on Friday and she was going to do an ultrasound too, so I'm definitely going to mention all my symptoms and specifically ask her if she can see anything weird on ultrasound (adenomyosis, enlarged uterus etc.). 

In other news, I've stumbled upon this fertility system called NaPro Technology using the Creighton Model of charting cycles. They have doctors certified in this nationwide, so I'm seriously considering visiting one after I've recovered from my lap. They're also affiliated with the Catholic Church (though they won't ask about the patient's religion, and I myself am not Catholic) and they implement a more natural way of fertility treatment. The premise is that they try to identify the exact problems you have causing infertility and treat those, trying to get you to an optimal fertility level. No IUI or IVF that work around the problem, but dealing with the actual problem. Also much more affordable (googling around for prices in my area, it comes to about $400/year including doctor visits and education materials if you follow their recommended schedule of visits - I guess any tests and medication would be extra though). Still, a ton less than IVF. I like the idea and I find it kinda similar with naturopathy, acupuncture etc. (except in this case, they are actual western medicine doctors and they do prescribe medication), but I'm still afraid I may be too much of a complicated case to be treated this way. Then again, maybe not. They claim to have successfully treated endo, PCOS, anovulation, hormonal imbalance and other common female infertility factors, including partial tube blockage. The only cases they do not take are complete tube blockage and male azoospermia. They din't mention DOR anywhere. They also claim to be up to 2.5 times more successful than IVF on all the above infertility cases, but I see a caveat here: their system is one that can be tried month after month, so cumulatively, they ARE going to see a higher percentage of pregnancies/live births than IVF, simply because IVF cannot be tried more than 3-4 times annually at most, and few women try it more than a few times anyway due to financial, health and emotional considerations. Whereas with NaPro you can keep trying while treating the problem, as long as you have the patience. I'm thinking of giving it a shot after my lap, though at this point, I'm still extremely undecided as to the way forward. Still, even if I do fertility treatment, I'm not sure it's a good idea to go into it without having brought my health, hormones etc. to optimal levels first. Especially with this newest twist in my cycle. Otherwise I may be wasting my money with very scant chances of success, and I'm not willing to do that (remember, we're paying out of pocket for everything - except for the lap, thank goodness!). So NaPro and possibly acupuncture/eastern medicine might be the next things to try. But we shall see.

P.S. I'm now half way on Indichova's book (have been quite busy lately). Still, it's all about diet changes and not much else. Wheatgrass seems to be discussed a lot.


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## Hatethewait85

Christi- Sorry your cycle is giving you a new curveball. I hate when things change without any good explanation. Hopefully it's nothing that will impair your ability to carry a child. :hugs: See what your doc says on Friday. 

I've heard about NaPro. It's definitely intriguing. I haven't researched it a lot because I've wondered how it would help me (who looks good on paper but may have an egg quality isssue). It may be interesting to just have an initial appointment to see what they say? Do you have a NaPro practitioner near where you live? So far I can't fully endorse TCM as I haven't got my BFP but I know they have a lot of success stories, too. Have you heard of the book Making Babies? It's a blend of western and eastern medicine. It does provide a 'diagnosis' of what may be your fertility problem and gives suggestions on foods to eat, teas to drink, types of exercise, hers/supplements to take etc to help. It was pretty spot on with what my acupuncturist claims my problems are. You can get the questionnaire at makingbabiesprogram.com for free but then I think you need the book to tell you how to "fix it." If you're looking for another book to read :winkwink:

What are they saying about wheatgrass? What's it supposed to do for you?


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## Christi85

Hatethewait85 said:


> Christi- Sorry your cycle is giving you a new curveball. I hate when things change without any good explanation. Hopefully it's nothing that will impair your ability to carry a child. :hugs: See what your doc says on Friday.
> 
> I've heard about NaPro. It's definitely intriguing. I haven't researched it a lot because I've wondered how it would help me (who looks good on paper but may have an egg quality isssue). It may be interesting to just have an initial appointment to see what they say? Do you have a NaPro practitioner near where you live? So far I can't fully endorse TCM as I haven't got my BFP but I know they have a lot of success stories, too. Have you heard of the book Making Babies? It's a blend of western and eastern medicine. It does provide a 'diagnosis' of what may be your fertility problem and gives suggestions on foods to eat, teas to drink, types of exercise, hers/supplements to take etc to help. It was pretty spot on with what my acupuncturist claims my problems are. You can get the questionnaire at makingbabiesprogram.com for free but then I think you need the book to tell you how to "fix it." If you're looking for another book to read :winkwink:
> 
> What are they saying about wheatgrass? What's it supposed to do for you?

Thank you, I hope so too. Feels like some kind of inflammation. I actually thought I'd call my doctor's office tomorrow morning and asking if it's worth me going in earlier (though at this point, it would just speed things up a day or two) in case it's an infection etc. If it is indeed due to adenomyosis, then there isn't much anyone can do other than maybe hormone treatment.

No, I hadn't heard about 'Making Babies'. I will definitely check it out, thank you :flower: I will also check out the free online questionnaire.

As for NaPro- it's hard to find much details and that annoys me a bit. There is nobody very close to us, but there are couple within about an hour's drive. Which I'm willing to do if needed. It's funny because I live in LA and you'd think there would be at least a few. But nope, the vast majority are in the outskirts. Still, I think I may give it a shot. If not strictly for fertility, to help me regulate my hormones better, since many of my fertility problems seem to stem from that.

Re wheatgrass - it's unclear what exactly it does to help other than generally 'clean your system', but the book references a study in cows, in which their infertility was reversed within 2 months of being fed with it. The author hates it at first (it turns her stomach), but then she ends up drinking smoothies made out of it after she hears how beneficial it can be :shrug:


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## Hatethewait85

Well it certainly doesn't hurt to call the doc and see if they think it's worth being seen earlier. Hopefully it's just a weird, random cycle and it's nothing serious. 

You're welcome for passing on the info on making babies. I thought it was pretty interesting. It's supposed to be a 3-month program (but I didn't try too hard to follow it when I read it last year). 

I can't believe there isn't a NaPro provider closer to LA! That does seem crazy to me. An hour isn't too bad of a drive though (My fs is about an hour from where I work and it was doable); especially if you wouldn't have to meet with them weekly or anything... or maybe you would meet that often?

Interesting re: wheat grass. Maybe I'll have to add it to my green smoothies at lunch... Thanks for sharing the info!

Unrelated to ttc, but I'll be in LA in June for my cousin's wedding. Anything you recommend seeing/doing? Not sure how much free time I'll actually have but it's good to have a short list of things just in case I find myself with some down time.


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## Christi85

Yup, I'm calling my doctor in a little bit. We'll see what she says. I may have to wait a few hours for a call back though. I'm actually starting to think it may be an infection. Hopefully nothing more serious than that. The pain is bearable and it's on and off (though surprisingly, Ibuprofen doesn't help all that much), but it changes from bloating to feeling tender to burning, and it's not always on the same side. Then there's other times I'm absolutely fine. I'm a little scared to be honest and googling my symptoms of course told me that I may have cancer :cry: But Google always says that about anything. I'm actually glad my pre-op and my lap are just around the corner.

Yeah, that's right about NaPro practitioners. I was surprised too. Maybe it has something to do with it being linked with a religious organization - I don't think LA is very religious overall, but still..
Their recommended schedule isn't too bad. They want you do a free consultation, at which point you decide if you want to commit to the program or not. If you go ahead with it, they recommend you do 5 visits in the first 3 months (for guidance on how to use the Creighton model, which apparently is a very detailed charting of cervical mucus), and then once every 3 months for the first year. If you continue after the first year, the frequency drops to once every 6 months. Some people do need additional visits though. I think some practices have distant learning too, which could be a good option.

Yup, wheat grass. Apparently there are some mixes on the market that aren't too nasty :winkwink: But I haven't looked into it at all. You can always ask your herb specialist.

As for LA: I always tell people they have to do Universal Studios. In my opinion, it's an amazing experience. Especially the tram tour that takes you back stage, shows you all the tricks they do to make movies look real, how they create special effects, you get to see sets from popular movies and TV shows etc. They also have a few fun rides and shows ranging from special effects to animal-actors etc. You need to have a good 5-6 hours to devote to that though for the full experience. Other than that, it depends on how much time you have. Going down to the Hollywood Walk of Fame and Kodak Theater are always popular (and tend to be very crowded), or if you want to go to the ocean, Santa Monica is always an option (you can walk to the Pier), or maybe Rodeo Drive for all the fancy shopping - I like to go there from time to time to browse, but never shop :winkwink:. Also, LA has the reputation that it's not cultural, but that isn't true. We have two amazing museums among others, the Getty Center in LA and the Getty Villa in Malibu. The first one has stunning views of the valley, beautiful gardens and art collections from the middle ages onwards, whereas the second also has stunning views of Malibu, also beautiful gardens and features Greek, Roman and ancient Middle Eastern art collections. I could go on and on...let me know if you need specific info on any of the above - or anything else.


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## Christi85

So, I ended up going to my doc's office yesterday. She took a vaginal swab and is doing a urine culture to see if it is an infection. We don't think this is very likely, but we have to cover all bases. If there is an infection, I'll have to be treated for it, and depending on what it is, it may push my lap back until I'm well :cry:
If there's nothing, we're going ahead with the lap as scheduled (5/22). She also did an ultrasound and didn't see anything unusual, which I was happy about. She did see the adenomyosis again ('pelvic congestion') but can't tell if this is causing the symptoms :cry: 
The ultrasound showed a little something that could have been another polyp (I had had a hysteroscopy for polyp removal back in September), or it could have been nothing, but there' was no way for her to tell for sure. She said, after we do the lap and I've recovered, she may want me to go in for an office hydrosonogram (a lighter version of the HSG the way I understand it) to check for sure. But even if that is needed, I feel that is too much intervention for me at this point and I don't want to go ahead with it. Between my hysteroscopy in September and the laparoscopy I'm going to have now, plus the HSG I had two months ago (which didn't show any polyps, by the way, but the doc said they could have missed it depending on where the balloon was positioned :wacko:), that's too many surgery-like procedures in 8-9 months. I feel it would be way too early for more invasive tests. 
The cyst in my ovary is still there - of course - and the doc said this time it looked almost definitely like an endometrioma (she hadn't ruled out the possibility of a dermoid, previously). However, I had two predominant follicles, one in each ovary, so I should be ovulating very soon. My lining also looked great, my doctor said. This to me was good news. It means that, even with the wacky things that are happening, my body is still trying to do its job, and this is what encourages me to think that I can still do this with a little boost, but as naturally as possible, no medical intervention.

Right now I just feel overwhelmed and emotionally tired. I think I need to take care of myself first and try to recover in a natural way (and maybe start homeopathy and possibly NaPro as soon as I recover from my lap). More medical intervention is the last thing I want at this point. I keep changing my mind through the whole process, but last night talking with my husband, we both agreed that the above plan is the best course of action for now. We want to keep trying naturally for at least a few more months, and then if nothing happens, we may consider a couple IUI rounds, but no more than 3. As for IVF, right now neither of us wants to go that far. Financially, emotionally and medically (with all the medication that could make my endo worse, plus my DOR which wouldn't exactly guarantee excellent results), plus the dilemma of possible frozen embryos we don't use (if any), we don't feel it's a great idea. Not for a while at least. The way we are thinking right now is, if it doesn't come naturally in another year or two (or maybe with a couple IUI rounds later), then we'd be better off starting the adoption process with the money we would have saved from not doing IVF. We might also look into foster-to-adopt, although it could even take a couple years or longer until one of your foster babies became available for adoption, as the vast majority end up reunifying with their birth families, so that's something we need to consider from an emotional point of view. But it's always an option, and it's also the cheapest one...

Interesting fact: as I walked into my doctor's office yesterday (it was at the very end of the day, so I was the only patient there) I overheard her IVF coordinator talking on the phone with someone - presumably an IVF patient - giving her bad news (I don't know what exactly hadn't worked, but she did say she was sorry a few times, and that she thought it would have worked, and that she has a good feeling for the future, and that she - the patient - had a year). So to me it sounded like a patient whose IVF didn't work or the cycle got cancelled, and she had pre-purchased cycles which she had to use up in a year. It may sound completely silly, but I took it as a sign that my feelings against IVF (in my individual case considering my problems - not IVF in general) are valid. Just happening to walk in right when bad IVF news were being delivered to someone. Then again, maybe I'm crazy...:haha:

In other news, I'm almost done with 'Inconceivable'. So her main regimen was vegetarian diet, no sugar, no gluten, lots of juicing and some herbs, fertility-special yoga every day and visualization exercises. Nothing too complicated, but it was actually quite inspirational how she beat the odds. Oh, at some point she also mentioned a 'colonic' (a fancy enema given by a specialist). It's considered a good way to clean up your system, and she did one of those.


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## Irish_eyes

Hello ladies, hope you don't mind me jumping it but have been following the thread for a while but had not the chance to sit down and write a post. I'll give a bit of a background of my journey so far. I am 36 and DH is 38 and we have been TTCinf over 5 years on and off. We have been put into the unexplained category and the only option we got was IVF, no clomid, no IUI etc. 

So we did our NHS free round back in 2012 and it failed. We only got 2 eggs both fertilised and were both 4 cell at day 3. At our review appointment we were told that one embryo definitely would not have made a pregnancy. And although I have not be diagnosed with DOR, I do think it had something to do with my eggs that I did not respond well to treatment. Back when I got all test done my FSH was ok and AMH was 10pmol but a year later a few months before IVF this dropped so 3 years on I am not sure what it is now. I have listed all my tests etc on the first post of my journal. 

I don't have the funds to do anymore treatment so it's hoping for that miracle but I have just booked an appointment with an acupunturist for next weekend to see if that helps.


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## Irish_eyes

Apologies for all the mistakes above as I am on my phone and predictive text is being a pain. ;D


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## Christi85

Welcome to the thread Irish_eyes! :flower:

I'm sorry to hear your IVF attempt did not work. Apparently it's more rare for it to work the first time and most ladies need at least a couple rounds. Though they also say, if it hasn't worked after 5-6 rounds, it may be time to give it up, as the chances of it working in subsequent rounds drop a lot. Then again, few people are going to have the funds to do so many rounds, let alone the emotional toll it takes (and for me, the health considerations aren't negligible either). As I'm sure you know, here in the US insurance tends to not cover IVF treatment, unless you have a killer health plan through your employer, which relatively few people have. Or unless you live in one of those states where it is mandatory coverage, but again, I think this is the case only for employer-sponsored plans, and not everyone has those. Even so, most of these plans still have limitations (e.g. they may cover just one or two rounds of IVF in a lifetime; or you have to do X number of failed IUIs first before they cover IVF; or they cover up to a certain amount of $$, which usually adds up to just one or two IVF rounds anyway). It's good that the NHS covered that one round for you. Any chance you could get additional rounds through the NHS? I know criteria are strict and waiting times long, but I was just wondering if there's any chance.

I'm definitely very interested in what your acupuncturist says. Please keep us posted. Hatethewait85 is already seeing one and doing some herb treatment, and I may very well start seeing someone as well in the coming months. Somehow, like I said above, I don't feel like medical intervention is going to do much good in my case. I feel going naturally may bring us better results, even if it means waiting much longer for a little miracle.


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## Irish_eyes

Hi Christi, I live in Northern Ireland so we are only entitled to one free go on the NHS and if I haven't got some frosties I think I could have got one free FET, which was just newly introduced. But unfortunately I didn't have anything to freeze. We don't have private health insurance since we have the NHS here but I am not sure if private insurance here would cover any infertility treatments. I was told since I didn't respond well to my dose of meds that I had to prepare to pay on the high side for the drugs if I went private and you are talking £4,500 or so. I just could not imagine spending that 5 times and we wouldn't be in position to. I am in a decent job but since DH got laid off about 6 years ago from the construction industry we have been sort of struggling financially. He works for himself now but his work is seasonal and he more or less don't have any during the winter months, he is doing gardening now. 

I have just settled myself into the thought of doing it naturally or that's it but don't want to think of the latter just yet. I have tried reflexology and reiki but have heard more sucess through acupuncture. I have to give it a go as I feel (as probably every women who is ltttc) the clock it ticking nearing 37. My mum went through menopause in her early 40s and my sister who is 44 had a hysterectomy about 2 years ago...so just a little worried.


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## slg76

Christi85 said:


> Oh yes, and how did I forget that?? Woman with DOR produced 40 eggs with stim????? I didn't even know that was possible :shrug:
> My doctor has been telling me I'll be having 8-10 eggs max, pretty much the number of follicles I had on my AFC (I had 9 or 10 on day 3, total on both ovaries) and that's assuming all will grow to maturity. I was reading recently that some women have a clinical image of DOR when that isn't actually the case. Simply put, their body is just too lazy to recruit enough follicles, but the follicles are there, just 'dormant'. So with stimulation, it is possible for some women to actually grow many more eggs than anticipated. Maybe that was your friend's case. Really interesting though - not something you hear every day :shrug:

Wow! I hope you ladies don't mind me popping in. I started reading this thread from the beginning so I know this particular post is old. I'll catch up soon :thumbup: I have DOR. My AMH is undetectable and my FSH is 100 :cry: I actually got pregnant naturally 9 months ago but miscarried. The pregnancy almost makes it harder because now I really can't give up. My doctor is willing to do a cycle of stim for me and doing some looking around for stim with DOR is how I found your thread. I love this encouraging story :)


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## slg76

by the way....I've done a lot of acupuncture and am happy to share my experiences and results if any of you are interested :flower:


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## Christi85

Irish_eyes I know exactly what you mean. IVF is SO expensive, it's ridiculous. The worst part for me though is that results are not guaranteed. It's not inconceivable that one may have to try 3-4 times before they're successful, and then again, many still aren't successful. It's one thing to pay all this money knowing the results you'll be getting, and a whole other thing to pay the money and not get results - I feel this brings the heartache to a whole other level. 

slg76 - welcome to the thread! :flower: I'm so sorry to hear about your breast cancer woes: I hope that is now gone and under control for you. I can't imagine anything worse for a mother with a young child. As for your secondary infertility, I know it can be so frustrating. It's a very good sign that you were able to get pregnant on your own even with bad AMH and FSH numbers - tells you that doctors don't know everything. I wish you all the best, and please keep us posted. It's incredible how much we learn from each other in this process. And yes, please, do share your experiences and results with acupuncture :thumbup:


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## Hatethewait85

Christi- 

Glad your doc was able to get you in early and that there was nothing new on your scans :thumbup: Hopefully it is just a minor infection that is easily treatable (or just a weird cycle). Was your doc overly concerned about things? Google thinks just about everything could be cancer. I can understand not wanting to do another procedure right away. I can also relate to feeling overwhelmed and exhausted. I was awful just after my FET failed. I'm quite a bit better now but still have my days where I just want to give up. But I attribute my more positive outlook to acupuncture. I feel like I'm doing all I can to make my body emotionally and physically at its best. After my RI consult in July/Aug, we may just start the adoption process. I've been reading blogs from birth moms, adopted kids, couples/people waiting for placement and I think it helps make adoption seem less scary. I still don't know that I could foster to adopt but I'm much more open to the possibility than I was a year ago.

Interesting about how structered NaPro works. Have you called to schedule a consult or are you waiting until your lap is done? I hope you don't have to push that out! 

I'll have to do a little reading about wheat grass and then maybe I'll ask my acu lady about it. She just gave me a whole binder to look at about foods. It's quite interesting how TCM views foods and how they can in turn affect your body. It's not just eating fruits/veggies = healthy; it's all about eating the RIGHT fruits/veggies! :dohh: Eating right is way more complicated than I thought. I'm not sure I could give up sugar like the chic you're reading about though! I am trying to cut down on it, particularly as I've been a dessert junkie the last couple of weeks. There's always a birthday, potluck, or something at work or with friends lately. I'm sure it'll only get worse with bbq's this summer. 

Thanks for all the info about LA!! I can't wait to go now (It's low 40s here today :growlmad:) I'll let you know if I think of any q's, but I hope to get to explore the city at least a little bit!

Irish eyes- :hi: I'm also working with an acupuncturist now after failing IVF. They suspect an egg quality issue with me too because most of the eggs they got (they retrieved 24) were immature and I only got a few blasts. I wonder if it was just the protocol but the only way to know is if I try IVF again. Talk about an expensive experiment!! I'm still considering another round in a few months but I'm worried of failing again. I've been taking coenzyme q10 since my FET failed and maybe that'll help things out? Anyway, there are a lot of great success stories with acupuncture/herbs so hopefully you and I can be one of them, too! 

slg- :hi: It's great that you were able to get pregnant on your own but I am terribly sorry to hear about the miscarriage. I really hope your rainbow baby is soon! How long have you been doing acupuncture?


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## Christi85

Thank you Hatethewait85. Let's hope so! 
Absolutely, I now realize how important it is to bring our bodies to the best possible state - seems obvious, but when you're overwhelmed with infertility, common sense make go out the window :haha:

It's great that you're thinking about starting the adoption process later this year. Oh yes, I've read (and I'm still reading) tons of blogs about it. Foster to adopt is an interesting option. Here in California, you can't straight adopt from foster care. You either fos-adopt or foster only. Meaning, even if you are placed with a child who is already legally free for adoption, you are still considered a 'foster parent' until the adoption is finalized in court. Hubby and I want a baby (as most people do) because we want the whole experience from the beginning and less of a chance of a traumatized past, which means we will have to foster first, and be open to adoption if the baby becomes available for adoption and not being adopted by family/kin (roughly 10-20% of the time). Most babies will not be legally free for adoption at the time of placement, so there's always the risk there. If it gets to that, we will have to consider if we are emotionally ready for something like that, basically continuously fostering babies and come to terms with the idea that it may not be until several placements down the road (which could even take a few years) that one of them finally becomes a member of our family. An already legally free older child is a lower risk alternative, but right now, I'm set on having a baby and I'm too scared to deal with big emotional trauma, so...
Private adoption is also a very possible option, it's just that the expense seems to be so high.

No, I haven't done anything with NaPro yet. I want to be done and recover from my surgery and then decide who I want to go with, who I want to see next etc.

You're absolutely right, eating right may even be more important than eating 'healthy'. I look forward to diving into those things myself...

Oh, LA will be fun! I visited twice as a tourist before we moved here and I LOVED it. Of course day to day life here is a different story, but I have yet to meet one person who didn't love LA as a visitor. You'll have a great time and the weather is always nice and warm (if not hot) :winkwink:
By the way, where are you located? Low 40s in mid May?? I haven't had that since my London days and it's the one thing I don't miss from my 4 years in London :wacko:


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## Pirate

We've also considered/are considering going the adoption route. Hubs prefers domestic private and I prefer foster to adopt. There are definite "risks" with both, but also many rewards. Two months ago I wanted to get the foster care approval process started immediately but now it's something I'm not so sure about. Basically we're not even going to think about making any major decisions until 2015.


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## Christi85

Pirate said:


> We've also considered/are considering going the adoption route. Hubs prefers domestic private and I prefer foster to adopt. There are definite "risks" with both, but also many rewards. Two months ago I wanted to get the foster care approval process started immediately but now it's something I'm not so sure about. Basically we're not even going to think about making any major decisions until 2015.

Totally, there are definite risks in both options, and each one has some big pluses that the other one doesn't, and vice versa. I agree about the rewards too. We are also between private domestic and fos-adopt. Not seriously considering international at this point, but if we decide to go down that route, I'm sure we will thoroughly research that option as well. No need to rush Pirate. Take your time and decide when you're ready.


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## Hatethewait85

I haven't researched foster to adopt much here (Wisconsin) so I'm not even sure what is and isn't allowed. There is a website with pictures of kids available for adoption in foster care though and it is so sad to look at. Most have severe physical disabilities or emotional problems requiring significant counseling/therapy. That is what overwhelms me of the foster to adopt system. I've always thought I'd want to adopt a newborn, too, because it's easier. Less emotional scarring like you said. But I also want the joy of experiencing all the firsts- first tooth, first step, etc. But whenever I think of that I wonder how selfish I am to want that. I always feel like I'm taking the 'easy' way out, not that anything about adoption is easy. It's definitely exhausting, emotionally draining, and completely overwhelming to really figure it all out. I'm always in awe of people who are able to do so without developing a bald spot! :haha: In the end, I'm pretty sure we'll go with private adoption if we get to that point. I tend to have decision paralysis though when it comes to next steps. I never want to give up too easily on anything! 

Christi-
It's a good idea to wait to schedule anything NaPro until you are fully recovered from the lap. Is that next week? I can imagine day to day life in LA is definitely different!! I'm not sure I could do it. Although the weather is pretty enticing. Wisconsin's weather has been awful this year... far too cold for my enjoyment. We only got leaves on the trees this week :growlmad: Next week the weatherman is calling for 70s so that will make me happy!


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## Christi85

Hatethewait85 said:


> I haven't researched foster to adopt much here (Wisconsin) so I'm not even sure what is and isn't allowed. There is a website with pictures of kids available for adoption in foster care though and it is so sad to look at. Most have severe physical disabilities or emotional problems requiring significant counseling/therapy. That is what overwhelms me of the foster to adopt system. I've always thought I'd want to adopt a newborn, too, because it's easier. Less emotional scarring like you said. But I also want the joy of experiencing all the firsts- first tooth, first step, etc. But whenever I think of that I wonder how selfish I am to want that. I always feel like I'm taking the 'easy' way out, not that anything about adoption is easy. It's definitely exhausting, emotionally draining, and completely overwhelming to really figure it all out. I'm always in awe of people who are able to do so without developing a bald spot! :haha: In the end, I'm pretty sure we'll go with private adoption if we get to that point. I tend to have decision paralysis though when it comes to next steps. I never want to give up too easily on anything!
> 
> Christi-
> It's a good idea to wait to schedule anything NaPro until you are fully recovered from the lap. Is that next week? I can imagine day to day life in LA is definitely different!! I'm not sure I could do it. Although the weather is pretty enticing. Wisconsin's weather has been awful this year... far too cold for my enjoyment. We only got leaves on the trees this week :growlmad: Next week the weatherman is calling for 70s so that will make me happy!

So here's the deal with foster care: the kids who are on the website are the hardest ones to place for adoption, either because of their age or because of severe medical and/or emotional needs. They are NOT the only ones - there's actually hundreds of thousands of kids in foster care nationwide at any one point. There are plenty of babies (and yes, sometimes people are even asked to pick them up from the hospital as newborns) who come into the foster care system, many of whom are even perfectly healthy or with minor medical needs, however the caveat is that it is very rare for babies to come with terminated parental rights (vs. many older children, who come legally free for adoption). Meaning they could reunify or be adopted by family or kin after staying with you for several months, and this is very common, so there's the potential for heartbreak there. Even those whose parental rights do get terminated and no family or kin claims them and are then offered to the foster family for adoption, may not be easy cases. You may still be facing a bumpy road with multiple court hearings until parental rights are terminated, possible appeals by birth families, uncertainty for a long time, system inefficiencies etc. However each case is different and it is perfectly possible to eventually adopt a foster baby, as long as you go in with the right mindset, knowing that it may take several foster placements until one comes through as an adoption opportunity (to an extent, it's like doing multiple IVF rounds until one works). There's a lot of blogs out there, see if you can do a search on Google. If hubby and I decide we want to do adoption further down the line, we'll definitely go to the intro sessions at the very least to find out more. But we're also definitely researching private adoption as well.

Yes, my lap is next Thursday. I had my pre-op appointment today and all tests came back negative for infections, so we're going through with it. I can't wait to be done and over with it. Though I don't know what comes next :shrug:

Oh yeah, the weather is the best part here. Life is very expensive and this is annoying. We've toyed with the idea of moving to another state, but hubby would need to find another job first, and that doesn't seem to be the easiest thing in the world. That, plus we have so much on our plate right now that the last thing I want is to add one more big thing to the list of worries, such as an out of state move. But we haven't ruled out that possibility for later.
Good - the 70s is the perfect weather, not too cold or too hot! :happydance: We've had the opposite this year - no winter. We had days in January and February when it was in the 80s :wacko: And this past week has been in the high 90s/low 100s, which is waaaay too early even in LA :wacko: But luckily our weather is dropping back to the mid and high 70s too, so we are rejoicing :happydance:


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## Hatethewait85

Thanks for sharing the information on foster-to-adopt. It does make it a bit less scary to know that, but no less heartbreaking and painful of a process than I imagined. Or at least it has the potential to be so. I thought it seemed odd that there were so few (I say that in comparison to the number I assumed was in foster care) and all special needs children on the website. I wish they would have all available children on the website. I will definitely have to read a bit more about it. 

Good luck with the lap this week. It is on my wedding anniversary so I'll say it's a lucky day! I hope the lap brings insight and answers. 

Hubs and I have also thought about moving to another state. Somewhere we can start fresh and new and make friends with people who don't have kids (we are literally the last). I'd definitely want to move somewhere a bit warmer. Although anywhere that gets over 100 in the summer is off the list. I can't handle that heat!! The hard part about moving for me too is finding a new job. For my profession, I have a killer job that pays well. And it's ideal for being a mom (if I ever get there). I'm probably too gun-shy to actually move out of state. But maybe I'll feel differently if I'm still childless in a year or two...


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## Pirate

Uprooting to move and leaving everything you know can be hard but also so rewarding. Hubs and I have lived in three different states since we started dating in 2007. We met when we were both living in Ohio, moved to Indiana for five years for me to go to grad school, and now we live in Pennsylvania. 

I have a friend who has adopted three boys through the foster care system and is attempting to adopt a fourth. They were all their foster children first. The first was relatively "easy" because his mom is in prison and not eligible for parole until after he turns 18, the second and third (biological half brothers) weren't quite as smooth but it all worked out, and the fourth is proving to be the most challenging due to some unforeseen, last minute challenges.


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## Hatethewait85

Wow- 3 different states!! What ultimately brought you to PA? Do either of you have family near by or was it a job? Both of our families are in Wisconsin (although he has a sister in MN). Sometimes I think it would be nice to live farther away from family (my very fertile family) but I think I would miss seeing them all regularly if we moved. Hubs actually wants to get a travel trailer and travel the US for a year. I would do it, but I worry about life afterwards. Jobs (I should clarify, good jobs) in my profession are getting harder to find... Who knows where we'll end up. I get more open to being 'wild and crazy' every day! 

It's good to hear of 'easy' success stories with adoption. Particularly foster to adopt. What's their secret? :haha: I'm sorry, though, to hear the last one is proving to be more of a challenge. I hope things work out for them soon.


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## Christi85

Thank you for the good thoughts Hatethewait85! :flower:
And happy early anniversary!! 

I hope the lap goes well too. My doctor said she would be very conservative and would only remove any endometriosis from places that wouldn't hurt my reproductive organs, since preserving my fertility is the #1 goal (#2 goal is to get an official diagnosis for endo and see how extensive it is to advise on what treatment would be best - except I'm not too warm on IVF right now as you know, but she doesn't know that yet). She will also try to remove all of the cyst in the ovary, but if that isn't possible without damaging part of the ovary, she will opt to leave some of it in (assuming it's an endometrioma, which is probably the case based on the latest ultrasound), so that she doesn't hurt my remaining follicles. Which is I think the best I can hope for.

Yup, moving out of state is no easy task. I have to say, one thing I love about living in LA is how many people here do NOT have kids (many out of choice), and so we are very rarely asked about having kids by friends. Most assume we're waiting until we're older or we straight don't care about having them, I think. We do have a few friends who have them or are expecting their #1 now, but luckily most of them live out of state. At the same time, we have equally as many friends who are either still single or in a relationship with no immediate plans to get married, so for them, the prospect of kids is really distant. I can totally imagine being surrounded by friends with kids - that can't be easy...

Pirate - I agree about leaving everything behind. To be honest, I'm kinda reluctant to pack up and leave and do it again. I've done it twice now (with me it was also changing countries each time) and it hasn't been easy. 

On a different note, I got quite upset this past Friday night. My father in law and his second wife (husband's parents are divorced and his dad has remarried) had us over for dinner that night - us and my sister in law and her husband (also childless, but so far, by choice). The night went very well, everyone was in a good mood, and then right before we were about to leave my father in law wanted to give us some books as presents - his work is with books, so he's a big 'book connoisseur' (or book snob :haha:). Both couples got the same books. One was a cook book from the chef of a famous restaurant in the Bay Area (ok, great), the second one an adult version of Hand Kristian Andersen's tales (meaning, it included history, analysis, commentary on each tale etc.). I didn't read anything into it, but as we started looking at the Andersen tales book, FIL's wife started giggling and saying 'now you know what we're expecting, hopefully in the near future'. My SIL and husband know about our struggles - so does my MIL - and have been very discreet at not telling others, but since we're not that close with FIL and his wife (long story, the reason why he divorced MIL was to be with this woman, so for a long time our relationship with those two was very tense), we haven't told them anything. And we won't be telling them anything anytime soon, unless we decide to adopt for example. Another conversation was going on at the same time, so neither us nor my SIL commented on that, and we let it go. Then she said it again, probably thinking that we didn't hear her. I'm sure we both did, we were just feeling a bit awkward knowing what was going on with us. Again, none of us said anything and we let it pass. And THEN, she said it yet again, really wanting to drive the point home :growlmad:
At which point I just said 'well, you may have to wait a while' and I left it at that. But I was really upset afterwards (luckily we left soon after that), especially at her insistence - I wouldn't have minded if she just said it once in passing, but she really insisted and repeated the comment three times :wacko: making me think that she really wanted to see our reaction. Even more annoying, we are not related to this woman. We aren't her kids (she has two of her own from a previous marriage), so I don't know why she felt so anxious for us and SIL to have kids soon. And why she had to be so indiscreet about it and hit us over the head with that stupid comment :growlmad:
On a funny note, while I do cook a lot, my SIL is clueless and doesn't really care about cooking, and she does seem to get annoyed every time someone hints that she should learn to cook. So, while I got insulted with the HK Andersen book (well, not the book itself, but the comments that accompanied it given my fertility struggles), I'm sure my SIL got insulted with the cook book that she'll never use. So they managed to piss off both couples with their book choices while being completely oblivious about it :dohh: That takes some talent :wacko:


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## Pirate

I accepted a position (my dream job, actually) in PA. While my job search was pretty much nationwide, we're both really happy that I found a job this close to "home." When we lived in Indiana, we were about 5.5 hours from my family and about 7 from his so coming home, even for a weekend, was a pain in the butt and we didn't get to see family as often as we would have liked. Now we're about 1.5 hours from his family and about 2.5 from mine. This is advantageous because we get to see them a lot more frequently, but can also be a pain because we are "expected" to attend more family gatherings now that we live closer (though sometimes I think that they don't realize that driving a round trip total of 5 hours for a 2 hour birthday party is silly). 

Moving is also hard in terms of friends. We had a bunch of friends in Ohio but grew apart from most of them because of distance and loosing what we had in common (mainly they all went on to have kids). When we moved to Indiana we also met some really good friends, but most of them went on to accept positions all over the country, and now in PA it's hard in terms of making friends because most people in the 30-40 age range have lives that center around their children.


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## Hatethewait85

Christi- That's good that your doc is being conservative in an effort to maintain your fertility as best as possible. I really hope there's minimal issues! That's annoying about your FIL's wife!! That would be frustrating to have her bring it up so many times. 

Pirate- So good you were able to find your dream job so close to family :) Hubs and I live similar similar distance as you and your hubs from family. We always end up making a weekend out of every 'event' because it's ridiculous to drive 5hrs in the car like you say to celebrate a birthday. The hard part is visiting my family - they have no spare bedrooms since both of my grandmas live with them so we end up sleeping on the couch!

I'm a little jealous you've both lived in so many places! I have always lived in Wisconsin and currently live the farthest I've ever lived from family (2.5 hrs). But I live in a really small town (pop < 2k) and have yet to make a single friend since I moved here 5 years ago. I always thought I'd have kids and make 'mom friends.' We do live near a larger city that we used to live in and where many of our friends live- except they are all 'mom friends' so I'm often left out :/ I'd like to think if we do bite the bullet and move out of state, I would be forced to make new friends... but I'm not so sure I actually would!!:haha:


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## Pirate

We usually end up making a weekend out of things too! It's easier to go to my parent's house because we can bring our dog with us (they live on a farm) which means we don't have to arrange (or pay for) boarding for him. My in-laws live in a 55 and older condo community and large dogs aren't allowed and his brother doesn't want a dog in his house (which I do respect), so overnight visits to their house involve arranging and paying for boarding so we don't go there quite as frequently.

I sort of put off making friends too in the hope that I would makes some mom friends. Now that it's extremely likely that I'll never be a mom and thus not have a need for mom friends, I'm trying to figure out ways to make new friends. You should move to PA and we could be infertile friends together!


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## Christi85

I'm exactly the same with friends. We have very few who live in state/in town. Everyone else is out of state or out of town, so we see them once-twice a year. And many are starting to have kids now, so who knows...I too thought I'd be making mom friends, but until I do become a mom, that isn't an option, and it doesn't seem like it's happening any time soon.
Well, we may all be far away from each other, but we do keep each other company in here :hugs: (as much company as you can keep someone from a PC/laptop screen :nope:).

My lap is tomorrow early afternoon, and I'm getting a little nervous. I'll update here as soon as I'm able to, but if I'm too dizzy/drowsy/sore, it may not be for a couple days. Today I'm tying off loose ends at home and errands-wise, doing some last minute shopping, preparing our place for my recovery, doing laundry etc. Off to do some errands and I'll catch you ladies on the flip side :winkwink:


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## Hatethewait85

Pirate-
Dogs do make it hard. Fortunately both sets of parents are ok with a pup visiting (my parents have a pit). We have to bring our crate for my in laws but it's not too bad. If I had to pay for boarding each time I probably wouldn't go often either. That adds up fast! 

I've been trying to think of other ways to make friends too but I'm coming up pretty empty handed in my small town. All the more reason to move to PA :) Although, PA is not much of a weather upgrade from WI in the winter is it? Sometimes I wish I could collect all the bnb people I've 'met' and move to a tropical island so I could surround myself with people who understand this. If only life was that simple!

Christi-
Good luck tomorrow!! I hope you rest easy tonight and you got all of your tasks done today. I'm sure things will be flawless tomorrow! Update when you can but definitely take care of yourself first and foremost. 

I'm definitely grateful to have bnb friends. Thanks to you both for making the journey a little less lonely! :hugs:


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## Pirate

I'll be thinking about you today, Christi! 

I'm all for the BnB Infertiles Island! PA probably isn't that much different in terms of weather. Maybe a bit "warmer" but that is about it. And we have mountains which can make navigating in poor weather a challenge (but unlike anyplace else I've ever lived, people in PA actually know how to drive in snow). At least I live in a large city! (well the 'burbs anyway).


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## Christi85

Thank you girls! :flower:
It's 8:30pm here and I don't have to go in until 12:30pm (procedure is at 1:30), and I can't have anything to eat or drink. So while hubby is having a hearty breakfast (he took the day off today to be with me), I'm just fooling around waiting for the time to pass.

The BnB Infertiles island sounds like a great idea!! :happydance:
I'd be up for it!! :happydance:
I'm glad too that I have some people to talk to who understand exactly what I'm going through :hugs::hugs:


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## Hatethewait85

Hope everything went well yesterday, Christi!! :flower: I know recovery after a lap can be long and hard so update when you can.

Alright. I think I'll have to research property so I can establish the Infertile Island. Sounds like it'd be pretty popular :haha: 

Also, I have good news- I think my herbs are working. I went to acupuncture yesterday and my acupuncturist was squealing with delight a the site of my tongue. :haha: Apparently it looked much better (less 'hot' :shrug:) so hooray for better looking tongues! I have noticed that my hands and feet aren't as cold or as sweaty and I haven't been waking up feeling super warm in the morning :thumbup: Maybe there's hope for me after all. Will definitely keep you all updated with any other progress. 

Have a happy Memorial Day weekend! I'll be celebrating at a Wedding on Sunday... I have mixed feelings about that. It better have an open bar at least!


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## Pirate

Hope you are doing well, Christi! I'm curious to hear how it went.

There aren't very many good things about infertility, but being able to drink whenever we want is one of the good things. Same with coffee.


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## Christi85

Thank you girls! :flower:

I had my lap yesterday and I'm now recovering. I'm still in pain but doing better. I'll be taking it very easy for the next several days. So, my ovarian cyst was indeed endo - the doctor removed about 80% of it and 'burned' the rest as it was firmly attached to the ovarian wall and she didn't want to destroy any part of the ovary. She also found some endo in one fallopian tube, although they are both fully open, and some deep lesions in the pelvic floor and bladder :wacko: but she didn't do anything about those as she wanted to preserve fertility for now. All in all, she said she'd call it 'moderate endo'. No scar tissue or adhesions, which was good to hear. Other than the ovarian cyst, it didn't sound like she touched any of the rest.

I'm seeing her on 6/9 for my post-op appointment and we're going to discuss her treatment recommendations then, but she told my husband she recommended that we waited one full cycle for me to heal. Then on the next cycle she wanted me to take the ovarian stimulation drugs in order for us to harvest eggs and freeze them. Then she wanted me to go on Lupron shots for a couple months to suppress the endo, and when we're done with that, fertilize the eggs and do an embryo transfer cycle with the frozen eggs. As you realize, I'm not crazy about this plan, and with my endo now confirmed, I'm really not sure I should be taking any medication for ovarian stimulation. At the same time, I'm not crazy about going on Lupron for any extended period of time, because we have a family history of osteoporosis and I've heard nasty things from women who took it over several months. I just need to find a good way to tell her that I don't intend on going forward with IVF, at least not now :wacko:
Instead, I want to research NaPro more and also see if I can find an acupuncturist/herb specialist to start working with, once I'm fully recovered.

Hatethewait85 - awesome news that your herbs are working! This is giving me so much hope, because I want to take a similar approach to my infertility :flower: Keep updating us :happydance:
And yes, the Infertile Island sounds awesome - I'm in :happydance:


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## Hatethewait85

Pirate- you are so right on the alcohol! I stopped worrying about it in the tww even. After ttc for nearly 3 years and failing IVF, the odds are I'm not pregnant. And if on the lucky chance that I am, I typically don't drink enough to really cause a problem in the early days. I did give up coffee and I don't really miss it right now. It helps that the sun is up and it is warm when I get up in the morning. I'll probably go back to decaf in the fall/winter. 

Christi- Glad you are making the road to recovery! Sounds like it was a good thing to have the lap done but it stinks she found as much endo as she did. I wouldn't worry about coming up with a good way to tell your doc, she shouldn't take it personally. I would just be honest. Although you're not planning to do it, I find it interesting that she'd freeze your eggs and not embryos. I always thought embryos froze better than eggs so I wonder why she'd wait to fertilize your eggs? 


As for infertile island, perhaps we can find a celebrity who suffered with infertility to help sponsor the purchasing of said island? After all my treatments, I have no spare money to even go to an island let alone purchase one! :haha:


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## Christi85

Haha, I second the idea of a celeb sponsor :winkwink::winkwink:

I am feeling better each day, which is good. But I still have a long way to go 'till full recovery. Yeah, it kinda sucks that I had endo in those places, but I am encouraged by the fact that it is 'moderate' vs. severe. I was fearing the worst. There were no adhesions or scar tissue, which is great, and I have one perfect ovary and one perfect fallopian tube. So I'm focusing on the good side of things :flower:
Maybe I'm completely delusional, but I still don't see how it would be impossible for me to fall pregnant spontaneously at some point since I don't have anything blocked, though I do realize it could take a very long time. Still, I don't think I'd be a good candidate for IVF, unless I had tons of money to spend trying multiple rounds and different protocols to find out what works, which I don't. All the while making my endo flare up with the IVF meds, which is the last thing I want - my plan is to actually try and contain or shrink it if I can, not give it a boost :wacko:. And adoption is always a possibility for us, so I think we will be parents eventually, one way or another.

Re my doctor - lately things have been rubbing me the wrong way for some reason. It didn't sit well with me that she started blabbering about potential treatment options just as I had started to come round from the anesthesia. I found that quite insensitive. She was mainly talking to my husband, but I remember parts of what she said and somewhere in my clouded thinking, I remember feeling this was not the time or place for that discussion. I'm not sure why she would want to freeze my eggs first. My guess would be because of my DOR - she's probably afraid I will become a poor responder if we allow much time to pass, so she wants to do it asap. Also, possibly because my husband had raised concerns at an earlier consultation about creating excess embryos - her response was that we could just freeze eggs and then thaw and fertilize as needed. At the same consultation though, she had explicitly told me that I'd be producing 8-10 eggs most likely with maximum stim, so it's not like we're going to have a huge amount to 'play' with. And some will inevitably not make it during the thawing process, so I really don't see how this whole procedure would have a good chance of success for me and my specific issues, and I don't have the money or energy to keep experimenting with it. 
The problem is that she already booked me in for an IVF consultation the day of my post-op appointment, which I didn't quite request. She called me the day after my lap and after we discussed the findings for a couple minutes, as I was about to hang up, she asked if I wanted to talk about treatment plans at the post-op. At that point I just wanted to get rid of her and I said ok, let's talk about it then (fully expecting to just tell her 'no, thanks' at the post-op), but she then said we would need additional time :wacko: So she booked me in for a consultation, which I don't want to pay for since I won't be pursuing treatment at this time. This whole time I feel I'm not being listened to (not to mention given the chance to speak, and the few times I have, I feel what I've said is not being taken into consideration) and I have been made to feel very rushed. I feel like we're on totally different pages, as I never even once told her I was interested in IVF and have always said that I wanted non invasive treatment, yet somehow, she's always assumed that's what I'd be doing. To add insult to injury, her office staff have been quite insensitive and inconsiderate on a few occasions, though that isn't as much the doctor's fault. It's just the general vibe I've been getting lately that I'm just seen as a bunch of $$$, which is funny because I don't have those :haha:
So my plan is to call the office sometime this coming week, tell them hubby and I have decided not to pursue treatment and ask to cancel the consultation and just go in for the post-op. Then I will probably have to call her personally and let her know, because if I don't, I feel she may be calling me to try to change my mind. Either way, I expect a spiel on how unlikely I am to fall pregnant on my own and why I need IVF etc. But oh well. Hopefully this will be the last time I have to deal with them and then I can go on to try my natural stuff (NaPro or eastern medicine or both) which I'm very excited about :flower:


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## Pirate

I'm so sorry about all of the problems with your doc/ doc's office. That is so not what you need right now! I am glad to hear that your recovery is going well though! I really hope that despite all of the shit odds that we all have working in our favor, that we all end up pregnant.


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## Christi85

Pirate said:


> I'm so sorry about all of the problems with your doc/ doc's office. That is so not what you need right now! I am glad to hear that your recovery is going well though! I really hope that despite all of the shit odds that we all have working in our favor, that we all end up pregnant.

Ditto, for all of us :thumbup:


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## Christi85

Sooo...
After a very low key Memorial Day weekend, where all I did was sleep, read and take short strolls with hubby around the neighborhood, I am back :happydance:
Still taking it easy (and will continue this way in the next week or two) as I'm nowhere near fully recovered, but I am feeling considerably better inside and out.

Some news I'd like to share:
1) I finished Julia Indichova's second book, The Fertile Heart. Unlike 'Inconceivable', where I felt it only fell together towards the end (even though the message was inspirational, can't deny that), this one is a compilation of all her experiences working with women for 15 years, helping them re-invent themselves and realize their potential above and beyond achieving motherhood (the vast majority of these women do end up creating happy families - the vast majority through natural pregnancies that often come after a poor prognosis from doctors, some through IVF, and some through adoption). This book is really inspiring and kept me interested from the very beginning. She echoes many of my own thoughts in it, and offers suggestions for imagery and visualization exercises, decoding dreams etc. Very interesting stuff that I always thought I wanted to dive more into but never really pursued. Now may be the time. Her main theme is that yourself and nobody else is your best advocate. That no doctor, expert, number, or statistic determines who you are as a whole or the end outcome. You need to be the ultimate authority deciding for yourself. In her book, she even quotes an unbelievable story, among others, where a woman falls naturally pregnant with an AMH of 0.01 and an FSH of 150 :wacko: Here is the story in her blog: https://www.fertileheart.com/getting-pregnant-with-low-amh-success-stories/
There is NO promise anywhere that you WILL get pregnant with her methods (which is a holistic approach to improving body and mind but not yet another one of these feel-good practices), but the pledge she makes is that, if you are committed to doing the work she recommends (tailored to your own personal needs and circumstances), if you are willing to really dive into yourself with honesty and re-invent it with time and patience, that you will start seeing things very differently, and as a matter of fact, many women start to see physical changes as well in their body, health, reproductive systems etc. and most do eventually fall pregnant once they've truly healed.
I felt like I wanted to work more with her as this is the direction I've been envisioning for myself - I've been much too stressed, frustrated, feeling powerless, negative, and this needs to change. But I'm already feeling calmer and more optimistic. I have signed up for a teleconference workshop she offers over 3 sessions - June 10, 17 and 24, and I can't wait. I will let you know how these go.

2) As I said earlier, IVF (or other fertility treatments for that matter) will have to wait for now. I'm nowhere near ready emotionally, psychologically, physically or financially, plus I'm too scared the medications will only make my endo worse (I know it's happened to other women) and that I'm not that much of a good responder anyway, so what's the point in spending all this money if my chances aren't great and risking my health worsening? I need to heal inside and out and I still think I'm better off trying for a natural pregnancy. So, I'm calling the doctor's office this morning to cancel my egg freezing/IVF consult and tell them I'll only go in for my post-op that day. I wish I didn't have to go back at all, but unfortunately I have to have my post-op. Man, will that feel liberating, never having to go back to that clinic after the post-op :happydance:


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## Pirate

It does feel empowering to make decisions! Glad you are at peace with the ones that you have made!


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## Hatethewait85

Christi- I'm glad you had a relaxing weekend to recover! It's definitely a good thing to focus on the positive. I don't think you are delusional to think you could fall pregnant. It's entirely possible for your body to ovulate a good, healthy egg. It may just take a long time for that to happen, which it sounds like you know. That's really quite obnoxious how your doc handled things with booking your consult and everything. I do not like pushy docs. How did the phone conversation go when you called to cancel that? When's your post-op appointment again? Do you have to pay for the phone conference with that Julia Indichova? I assume she's going to discuss diet/lifestyle things? Sorry for the 20 questions. I'm intrigued. Anyway like Pirate said, I'm glad you made decisions you are comfortable with. 

AFM, hubs and I talked game plan again. I read online that the consult with the RI could cost around 3k?? :saywhat: That's a crazy amount of money which makes us second guess things now. I had left a message with their finance person last month when I made the appointment and they never called back. I guess I will try to get some more info from them in the next 2 months to confirm the actual costs. And of course this led to more discussions on how much more we really wanted to go through. :doh: Part of me just wants to move on to adoption now so I can get past this whole obsession- what magic can I try to get pregnant this month. And that part gets bigger each cycle. The other part of me thinks another round of IVF would surely work, how could I not try. Particularly as IVF is cheaper and quicker than private adoption and potentially less stressful. The other part of me (I guess I'm divided into thirds) says that I should keep trying herbs/acu for another 6 months and see what happens. I sure as heck can't make up my mind. As a healthcare provider I can understand why (to an extent) infertility treatments are not covered by most insurers, but why is diabetes or post-MI care covered for people who don't take care of themselves?? Surly they 'asked for it' whereas this crap is completely outside of my control- it's a natural disaster so to speak. Grr. Sorry for the rambling.


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## Pirate

Not to sound dumb, but what is an RI?

I'm totally divided too. Sometimes I think we should just pony up the money and try a medicated cycle (but then the logical, rational part of me takes over and knows this isn't a wise investment for my situation and the likelihood that it would work). Sometimes I think I want to move on to adoption straight away (but then I think about the length and uncertainty of the whole process). Sometimes I just think I want to be done with this phase of my life and move on to life without kids (but worry that if we close the other doors we'll regret not having done more in the future when it really is too late). 

I understand that infertility is expensive for insurance to cover, but so is treating diabetes, bariatric surgery, barely research validated therapies for Autism, etc. Plus infertility only affects such a small amount of people that I don't think there would be a huge cost associated with it. There should be limits though, in my opinion. For example it could be 70-80% coverage with a $50k lifetime maximum for infertility treatment, including medications. This would get several IUI cycles and a shot or two at IVF. At minimum I think that infertility testing should be covered by insurance.


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## Christi85

Hatethewait85 - Luckily, the phone call didn't go as dramatically as I was afraid it would. I spoke to one of her office staff and asked to cancel the extra time booked after my post-op, and they didn't seem to care. Then I had the dreaded task of telling my doctor (I thought as a courtesy, I had to, rather than letting her find out from her staff, though I'm sure people do this all the time). I opted for texting her instead (one of the good things about her is that she is accessible via cell phone) and told her about our decision very briefly. Also told her that I had already cancelled the extra time. Luckily, she didn't call me as I was afraid she would. She responded to my text almost immediately though, and said that she'd love to know what caused my decision if I wanted to discuss it with her when I went in for my post-op. I texted her back to say it was down to money, health considerations and emotional readiness and it's not like I'd be going with another doctor (which is true, actually). Left out my complaints. No point in burning bridges and she hasn't been all bad, just a bit too pushy for my liking lately. She texted back to say she understands and thanks for letting her know, and that was the end of it. Phew :winkwink: My post-op is on June 9. After that, I shouldn't have to go into the clinic again :happydance:

As for Julia Indichova's tele-conference, my understanding is that it is like a mini group therapy divided into 3 sessions with only the same people participating in each session for a more personal approach, and providing a more in-depth intro to her 'Fertile Heart Ovum' Practice, which I think is a holistic approach of health, mind, body, diet, imagery exercises, dream interpretation etc. But each person has to adjust it to their own needs, preferences, circumstances and it's not set in stone - just some guidelines to go from. Some of it is discussed briefly in her Fertile Female book. Yes, the sessions are paid. It was $226 for the whole thing (3 sessions of 1,5 hour each over 3 consecutive weeks - though she has a disclaimer that, due to the personal nature of the sessions, they may run a bit over time and to plan for up to an extra 1/2 hour each time). I am intrigued too. To put it simply, I like how this woman thinks. I like how she considers infertility a journey and a blessing verus a curse, an opportunity to learn things you didn't know about yourself and to emerge as a better person in and out. I'm hoping for some of her optimism to spill over to me :thumbup: and whether or not that brings us a baby later, I still feel it may give me a boost to work with myself to feel happier and healthier, body and mind. It wasn't outrageously expensive, so I thought I'd try it. She then has a series of hour-long group teleconferences which people who have completed the Intro are welcome to join as needed, subject to space in the group and availability, which I think cost $108/session. Not sure if I'll be doing any of these, but I may do one or two as needed, if needed. I'll see how the initial sessions go and how I want to proceed from there. She also offers an all-day in-person workshop in Woodstock, NY for $350 (or $550 for couples), which, knowing how much similar workshops cost, I think is very reasonably priced, except I'm nowhere near NY. But the tele-sessions are meant to be an alternative to that workshop, or at least that's my understanding. Anyway. I'm usually very wary of those types of things as I've always felt they were money-grabbers, but since her books echoed so many feelings and thoughts I'd had myself, I thought I'd give this one a shot (my hope is also for it to help me create a plan of action as to what to seek next - acupuncture? herbs? fertility yoga? group therapy? you name it - I feel lost...I hope her seminar will help me decide what I need based on my individual circumstances). If you're interested in doing some browsing, here's her Fertile Heart website:
https://www.fertileheart.com/

Wow, $3K for a consultation with the RI??? :wacko: (Pirate - I think it stands for 'Reproductive Immunologist'). Is that the specific one you're seeing or are they all priced similarly? And here I thought, consultations with REs were expensive (my doctor was $300, and I've seen anything from $250 to $400 in the LA area). Any idea why it could be so expensive? Will you be paying for it out of pocket or will you have a co-pay? If so, I think you have a right to know how much it will cost upfront. I'd call their office and ask what to expect in terms of out of pocket cost.

I hear you both about indecision. You never know which way to turn and what is the right decision. I think having my endo confirmed played a big part in my decision. Years ago I knew a girl who had severe endo and still went ahead and did 5 IVFs, all failed. The meds only made her endo worse, to the point where the doctors could see it in the ultrasound (which I'd never heard before) causing her crippling pain all month long. She's now 38 and after several laps that haven't helped much and two 6-month breaks with Lupron (which she loved) her doctor is telling her he can't prescribe these anymore (too much risk of long term side effects) and she now needs to either live with the pain or have a hysterectomy. Needless to say, her endo has also become so much worse than before after the treatments, that even the low chance of conceiving she had before is now gone. I thought that was extremely sad and swore I would take care of myself and my health first and foremost, even if that meant never having a baby of my own and having to adopt. Plus my endo is much lighter than that to begin with, so I think I may have a decent chance over time and with taking extra care with an endo-friendly diet, acupuncture etc. So in that respect, my decision was somewhat easier. I may also change my mind later, but for the time being, I don't want to think about fertility treatments.

I agree with both of you about insurance and fertility treatment coverage. It would be nice to have that option, or at least the option of a rider to include infertility if the person desired to have that sort of coverage. Luckily, fertility treatment expenses over 10% of adjusted gross income can be deducted from our tax returns, so at least our tax liability gets somewhat reduced. There's also the 'adoption tax credit' where up to $13K or so in expenses can be claimed as a tax deduction on the year when an adoption was pursued (this applies even to failed adoptions). Since both routes are very expensive, these are at least better than nothing..:wacko:


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## slg76

I've been reading along. It sounds like most of you are deciding against medicated cycles but I wanted to share just in case. I'm in the middle of my first injectable cycle after a year of natural cycles and 3 failed Femara cycles. I'm on a fairly high dose of gonal f. Serano is the company that makes gonal f and they adjust the cost of the medication based on your income (the low income cutoff was actually quite high; maybe $90k if I remember). So I paid about $1500 for my medication this cycle but that was 50% off the regular price. 

I'm also spending the extra $400 to do an insemination this cycle. Opinions are split as to if this will increase my chances since our issue is my ovulation and not hubby's sperm. I figure I might as well put all the cards on the table this month. 

You all seem to be a bit ahead of me emotionally about adoption and egg donors. I'm not there yet but reading your posts has been helpful for me. Thank you :flower:


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## Christi85

Best of luck slg76! :flower:

I would think, if your problem is ovulation, then being on injectables should help much more than Clomid/Femara which many people with ovulation issues don't see results with. So I think your decision was right :thumbup:
Best of luck on your insemination this month - I have everything crossed for you!! :happydance::happydance::happydance:

Thanks for sharing the info on the meds. That's really interesting to know and definitely something to keep in mind for anyone interested! Every little helps, and hey, $90K for the 'low income' category sounds great - my household would qualify :winkwink:

Glad to hear that reading the posts helps you! I think this is the point of this forum. We learn from each other, offer support, exchange opinions and information etc. As for treatment decisions or alternative ways to build a family, I think these are unique to each person and their priorities/circumstances, so don't feel you have to feel the same as everyone else. Try to follow your gut and do what you think is best for you personally, based on your individual circumstances! :hugs:
And it sounds like you are, so we're cheering for you! :thumbup:


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## Pirate

Best of luck, sig! It's good to have that info about the meds. I honestly thought it would be double or triple that cost.


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## slg76

thanks for your support ladies!!

One more tip....
the cost I gave you was just for the meds. but during a medicated cycle you have to get a lot of ultrasounds. I've had 4 this cycle. My clinic charges $350 per ultrasound. My insurance doesn't cover anything infertility related. BUT, I asked the clinic for the insurance code they use for the ultrasounds and then called my insurance company and they said they do cover that procedure code. Turns out it just pops up as an abdominal ultrasound. So that loophole has saved me $1400 this cycle. 

Like I said, I'm not sure that you ladies are even considering this right now but I hate for you to pass over the possibility thinking it would cost much more than it actually does. 

I'll let you know how my cycle turns out. Fingers, toes, and eyes all crossed :wacko:


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## Mikihob

Hi ladies. In regards to the medication costs, there are also mail-order pharmacies that gives steep discounts for fertility meds. My DH had to take FSH and HCG for his sperm production and we got a serious discount. It wasn't cheap but it was cheaper. 

I have PCOS and don't ovulate on my own. I am currently on Clomid and doing IUI's with donor sperm. I don't have any local RE's so I am going through my second unmedicated IUI. I have trouble getting positive OPK's so it's hard to properly time the IUI. They say that Clomid is supposed to cause ovulation 5-9 days after your last pill but my periods are 36 days long which would a later ovulation. It's so hard. Why can't our bodies just work!! :dohh:

I agree that the decision to use donor eggs or donor sperm is tough. I am already facing the idea that we might have to use donor eggs and donor sperm if we can't get my ovaries to work correctly. Clomid gives me severe side effects. Some women don't have any or barely any, I have loads. 

I am glad that you are able to take some time to learn more about yourself and focus on your health. Those webinars seem really great and what great information and support. I read in a health journal online that if you are depressed while TTC it increases your chances of being depressed during pregnancy and greatly increases your risk of postpartum depression. I myself have been learning new ways to overcome the depression and stop crying all the time. It's not easy but it's helping me stay more upbeat. 

I am praying that we all can beat female infertility and get our miracles! :hugs:


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## Christi85

sIg76- Thanks for sharing the info! That's very interesting about your insurance and definitely good news for you! :flower:
By the way, if you have a journal, let us know the link so that we can follow you :winkwink:

IUI was never out of the question for me (total cost of a cycle including meds was quoted by my doctor's office between $800-$1,400 with Clomid/Femara, and $2,000-3,000 with injectables). Not that bad. However, my doctor never liked the idea of me trying IUI first. She thought I should go straight to IVF, egg freezing etc. probably because of my diminished ovarian reserve. A bit too much for me. For now I don't want to even think about more medical intervention, I feel I've had my fair share in the last 3 months. If, after months of trying, hubby and I feel that trying a couple IUI cycles might make sense, we may do it. Though in my case, even the hormones in Clomid and Femara could make my endo flare up, so I'm still very skeptical. I could always do an unmedicated IUI cycle or two, but since my problem isn't ovulation (I do ovulate on my own every month), I don't see how that would be different from just trying naturally :winkwink:

IVF though is a completely different story. For me, the cost-benefit analysis is just too shitty in my case (I am not predicted to ovulate more than 8-10 eggs even with maximum stimulation as I have a low AMH and low follicular count, plus the meds could potentially make my endo worse and I'd hate that). So, my chances at IVF success are not that great, and I would most likely need to experiment with a few cycles and different protocols to find out what could work - which, at $12-15K a pop, is not a great option, and I don't want to take so much meds that I would risk my endo getting worse. So, it&#8217;s all natural for us for now&#8230;

Mikihob &#8211; welcome to the thread! :flower: I started following your journal as well. 
I had no idea that pre-pregnancy depression could increase your chances at pregnancy and post-partum depression as well. Very interesting, though, if you think about it, it makes sense. One more reason for me to keep positive!
Best of luck in your endeavors with IUI! I bet using donor anything (eggs or sperm) can be a tough decision and psychologically draining. But here&#8217;s to hoping that it will work! :thumbup: 
Clomid causing side effects is actually fairly common from what I&#8217;ve read. Any chance you can switch to Femara (hopefully this cycle works though and you don&#8217;t need to)? But Femara is said to have less side effects, as Clomid lingers in your system for much longer. And a lot of women who don&#8217;t ovulate on Clomid, do ovulate on Femara, so it&#8217;s a matter of finding the right one for you. Also, a lot of women with ovulation issues see a lot better results with injectables, though these are a lot more expensive that the pills - I know you know that. 
Keep us posted on how this cycle goes! Wishing you a big, beautiful egg this cycle, and a successful insemination round!!


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## Pirate

Yeah an injectibles cycle with IUI would be $3000-3500, depending on the number of ultrasounds needed, plus the cost for meds. For me, my situation, and the odds of this actually working, this really isn't am option for us.


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## slg76

I'm not actually "expected" to become pregnant either but my doctor was willing to give injections a shot if that's what I want. My prognosis is abysmal! My AMH is undetectable and my FSH is 100. I do ovulate regularly on my own but I don't do it very well (my day 21 progesterone levels are pretty low). We just did 5 natural cycles in a row and I ovulated on all of them but no luck getting pregnant. My doctor thinks that the gonal f will help my egg quality and help me have a healthier corpus luteum after ovulation to support a pregnancy. I was on a big dose and I only grew one follicle. I hope the theory about it being a healthier follicle/egg is true because I would have made one follicle on my own anyway. Hubby's sperm are presumably fine but we are doing IUI this month just to have the very best shot possible. Who knows, maybe my CM has become hostile after all this change in my body over the past few years? :shrug: 

I'm not really a candidate for IVF. My ovarian reserve is so low that my doctor doesn't think we can get me to produce enough eggs for a realistic IVF cycle. I probably wouldn't end up with an embryo to put back in. Interesting that our doctors actually had exact opposite opinions about IVF versus injections! My AFC is usually around 6. 

Hubby and I are open to adoption but not so much to donor eggs. We want our child to be biologically both of ours or neither. Plus, pregnancy is a calculated medical risk on my part so if it's not our biological child it doesn't really make sense for me to carry the baby. I have been pregnant before (I have a 3 year old) and I absolutely loved being pregnant....well until I got cancer, that part sucked :wacko:


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## Christi85

Pirate- I think this cost for IUI includes the meds. Even with an injectables cycle, the dosage is much lower in IUI because you only need to trigger a couple eggs, so the meds cost considerably less. And then the rest of the cost goes towards ultrasounds, sperm wash and the actual insemination. Still, you are right, it's not a good option for everyone.

sIg76 - Best of luck, even if it's a long shot! :thumbup:
I see what you mean about IUI vs. IVF. Well, seeing as I fired my doctor, it tells you that I disagree with her too :winkwink:

I would be a borderline candidate for IVF at this stage, I think. My AFC was 9 or 10, and my AMH was 0.96. Not horrible, but quite low for my age. My FSH is still fine. I think this is why my doctor wanted to rush freezing my eggs asap, to prevent my AMH dropping even lower when my chances would be significantly reduced (AMH predicts stimulation success after all). But she still said at this point all I could hope for would be 8-10 eggs with maximum stim, so it's not like we'd have an abundance of eggs to freeze, fertilize/transfer, allow for some to die in the process etc. I think that, realistically, I would have to expect having to do multiple fresh cycles with multiple egg retrievals. 

I'm curious, how low was your CD21 progesterone? Mine was low, at 6.9 (I tested just 6 days after ovulation though, as 7 days would have fallen on a Saturday) and my doctor wanted to see higher than 10. To me, 6.9 is low but not horrible, and should be fixable with some progesterone supplementation. Then again, in this month's cycle, when I went in a week before my lap fearing I had an infection (turns out I had none) and she did an ultrasound, I was on CD13, right before ovulation. She found two predominant follicles, one in each ovary, and said my uterine lining was 'perfect', so I took that to mean that my hormones were exactly on target at that point. 

I hear you about all the dilemmas with adoption, egg donorship etc. None of these are easy, and I think it's very much down to each individual couple and their limits and preferences. We all want to have a baby of our own the good old natural way, and when that becomes hard or impossible, we are then faced with some tough decisions. I hope your cancer is now gone forever - there's nothing more important than good health, I keep reminding myself this when I'm down.


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## slg76

I've had two day21 progesterones drawn recently. They were 5 and 8. Pretty low. My doctor isn't a huge believer in progesterone supplementation and thinks that it's better to fix the problem before that point so the body makes the progesterone. Easier said than done, right? 

My AFC was 7 on this cycle but after stimming only one folly grew. I was on 300 IU gonal f per day which is actually more in line with an IVF dose than with IUI dose. My FSH is SO crazy high that we have to try to overcome that. I do think my FSH is much lower now than when it was tested although they (whoever that is :winkwink:) say that only your highest FSH value predicts your pregnancy success. 

hmmm, I'm no doctor but I do feel like it some days! It sounds like you should have some options left for getting those eggs out if you want to. 

Thanks for the health wishes. As far as I can tell my cancer is gone. Luckily it had not spread when I found it and my treatment was very aggressive. I fully intend to be a healthy momma for a very long time :thumbup: 

Where are you from? I see your sigi note but your English is far better than many people's I see online :winkwink:


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## Christi85

slg76 said:


> I've had two day21 progesterones drawn recently. They were 5 and 8. Pretty low. My doctor isn't a huge believer in progesterone supplementation and thinks that it's better to fix the problem before that point so the body makes the progesterone. Easier said than done, right?
> 
> My AFC was 7 on this cycle but after stimming only one folly grew. I was on 300 IU gonal f per day which is actually more in line with an IVF dose than with IUI dose. My FSH is SO crazy high that we have to try to overcome that. I do think my FSH is much lower now than when it was tested although they (whoever that is :winkwink:) say that only your highest FSH value predicts your pregnancy success.
> 
> hmmm, I'm no doctor but I do feel like it some days! It sounds like you should have some options left for getting those eggs out if you want to.
> 
> Thanks for the health wishes. As far as I can tell my cancer is gone. Luckily it had not spread when I found it and my treatment was very aggressive. I fully intend to be a healthy momma for a very long time :thumbup:
> 
> Where are you from? I see your sigi note but your English is far better than many people's I see online :winkwink:

Your doctor is probably right. Whatever natural therapies I use, I hope they help me regulate my hormone levels. Though I'm very confused about what's happening with me. All hormones (including FSH, estradiol, prolactin etc.) are right where they need to be, yet my progesterone is low. Then again, on the cycle when I got that tested I didn't think I had ovulated at all. Turns out I had (it was also a weird cycle, the same one in which I had the HSG) :shrug:

I don't buy the theories about FSH. If you can get it down, I don't see why you couldn't get pregnant. I know I posted this yesterday again, but have you read this? I thought it was pretty incredible:
https://www.fertileheart.com/getting-pregnant-with-low-amh-success-stories/

Glad to hear you caught the cancer early! And even more glad it's now gone:thumbup::thumbup:

I'm from Greece originally, born and raised there until I was 22. Then I went to to the UK for postgrad studies, met my (American) husband there and we decided to stay and work there for a few years so that we could stay together. And then we moved to the States almost 3 years ago. My English was pretty good even before I went to live in an English speaking country, but it has vastly improved thanks to that in the last 7 years (and my husband's very limited Greek, so it's only English at home :haha:). Thank you so much - I get conscious sometimes that I make mistakes or that I may phrase things in funny ways, but oh well...as long as people know what I'm saying :winkwink:


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## Pirate

I actually never had a progesterone draw done, but I think that's because my RE prescribes progesterone supplements for everyone who does ART. My AMH was .52 (quite low for 32 years old). My FSH was high for my age and for CD2, but not ridiculous (11.x). My AFC was pretty darn terrible at 5, with one of those being a borderline antral follicle. My RE recommended that we try a cycle with injectibles with IUI to see how that went, then directly to IVF if I responded enough to bother even trying, and then to donor eggs. He told me that in his experience that he gave me a 8-12% chance of me responding well to injectibles, but he also told me that it was completely possible for me to get pregnant without help. For us, an 88% chance of failure just wasn't worth taking the chance on, but that was the right decision for us and we're perfectly at peace with it.


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## slg76

love that story in the article. I do believe that there is much we can do outside of traditional medicine to help our situation. I actually wasn't ovulating or cycling at all twice in my life. Both times my cycle started back up within two months (in once case two weeks!) after starting acupuncture. 

I would never have known that english wasn't your first language! I love talking with the ladies from the UK on here. They remind me of being around a good friend who is scottish and is now back in scotland.


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## Hatethewait85

I'm glad to hear I'm not the only completely indecisive one out there. Making decisions on going to the next step was super easy at first because we were trying something we hadn't tried before with a higher success rate. Now the next step is not something new so the decision is not so clear. 

The only thing I know for sure is that I want to be a mom and it doesn't matter to me if the child has my genes or not... but I still have a hard time letting go of the genetic link for some reason. Why is that?? Is it more because I am afraid of how long and hard of a process adoption will be? I can't quite figure it out. 

As for the insurance thing, I agree that some lifetime max would have to exist. But there should be enough coverage to let you try a few rounds of ART of some sort. Perhaps I'll have to move to one of those states that mandates coverage! 

I never had a cd21 progesterone level checked either. Weird. I have no idea if I have strong enough O or not. I wonder if I should ask for a test if I'm going to continue to ttc naturally. Although my expectations after failing IVF and no BFP in nearly 3 years is pretty low as it is. So I'm not sure knowing my progesterone level will change that.

Also, like Christi said, RI is reproductive immunologist. They specialize in auto-immune issues preventing a pregnancy (my body attacking an embryo for some reason). Since my doc can't confirm poor egg quality without another round of IVF, this is another potential cause for why I can't get pregnant. The 3k estimate was for my specific doc - Dr. Kwak-kim. I'll just have to try again with her finance department to see how accurate the info I found was. The 3k included the office visit, ultrasound (they have a fancy machine that can actually assess how well blood is flowing to the uterus and follicles!), and lots of blood tests (22 vials of blood or something like that). So it's not just the consult, phew! But still a hefty chunk of change.

Pirate- As you can tell, I totally feel you on your different thoughts about what comes next. Does your hub feel the same way? Hubs and I are mostly on the same page, although he thinks he could be happy without kids. I can't imagine not watching a lil one ever get excited about christmas morning, or learning how to ride a bike, or learning anything new really. That glimmer of excitement of seeing the world for the first time... I can't seem to give that up!!

Christi- I'm glad the conversation went OK with your doc. I bet it feels good to have that finalized! Thanks for sharing the info on the Julia stuff. Let us know how it goes if you don't mind. It sounds like the endo was a blessing in disguise- made your job a little bit easier as far as deciding how to proceed! Although I have high cholesterol (thanks mom and dad!!) and have been forgoing treatment for nearly 3 years (and actually was asked to eat like crap to GAIN weight before IVF- I weigh ~125lbs now) and that has not helped me give up this ttc process yet. August will be the 3 year mark for me and have another cholesterol check for work then and depending on how awful the results, I will find a new primary doc and take some of the less effective meds but safer when ttc. At least that's my plan for now. My acupuncturist also claims these herbs may help my cholesterol so I guess we'll see in a few months! Hubs and I took advantage of the tax credit last year so that was nice. They recently changed the % of income... I think it used to be 7%. 

slg- Best of luck on your IUI! I truly hope it gives you your rainbow! That's so interesting to hear about the gonal F pricing- and good to know! 

mikihob- Good luck to you too with your inseminations! Have you thought about adding monitoring (ultrasound and/or labs) to help figure out if you are getting close to o? I had an ultrasound on day 11 of each of my IUIs and was given instructions to trigger on x day if I didn't get a positive opk by then. It'll add some cost but maybe it'll make the IUI more successful if you are getting the timing right.


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## Pirate

Hatethewait85 said:


> Pirate- As you can tell, I totally feel you on your different thoughts about what comes next. Does your hub feel the same way? Hubs and I are mostly on the same page, although he thinks he could be happy without kids. I can't imagine not watching a lil one ever get excited about christmas morning, or learning how to ride a bike, or learning anything new really. That glimmer of excitement of seeing the world for the first time... I can't seem to give that up!!

Hubs and I are on the same page, mostly. He seemed to accept the whole "it's going to be really hard for you to get pregnant naturally" thing quite well. I think that he might be approaching it a bit differently though because he's not the one who is "broken." I don't know if he's shoving his feelings aside in an effort to support me or if he really was able to deal with everything that easily. In terms of adoption, I think it would be really hard to get him on board with it. My preference would be to adopt a child (children) from foster care, but his field is social work so he's seen a lot of really bad stuff and is really hesitant to go this route. His mindset is pretty much that he wants kids that are genetically ours or none at all. Personally, some days I'm not sure if I'm in love with the notion of being a mother or if I'm in love with the notion of having kids. Both of us are really turned off by the process of adoption (private or through foster care). Honestly, I think we'll probably just keep having unprotected sex until such a time when we're certain that we no longer want to get pregnant. I can't see hubs wanting the possibility of me getting pregnant after he's 40 (he turned 37 this month) and I really have no desire to be pregnant much older than 35 or 36.


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## Mikihob

Hatethewait85 said:


> I'm glad to hear I'm not the only completely indecisive one out there. Making decisions on going to the next step was super easy at first because we were trying something we hadn't tried before with a higher success rate. Now the next step is not something new so the decision is not so clear.
> 
> The only thing I know for sure is that I want to be a mom and it doesn't matter to me if the child has my genes or not... but I still have a hard time letting go of the genetic link for some reason. Why is that?? Is it more because I am afraid of how long and hard of a process adoption will be? I can't quite figure it out.
> 
> mikihob- Good luck to you too with your inseminations! Have you thought about adding monitoring (ultrasound and/or labs) to help figure out if you are getting close to o? I had an ultrasound on day 11 of each of my IUIs and was given instructions to trigger on x day if I didn't get a positive opk by then. It'll add some cost but maybe it'll make the IUI more successful if you are getting the timing right.

Hatethewait I had a hard time with the decision to let go of the genetic link. Oddly enough it was DH that said, the genetics don't dictate whether the baby is mine/ours or not. At the end of the day the baby is mine/ours and he will still have your genetics, then joked "At least he will be cute." :haha: I want to be pregnant so I have a hard time with adoption because it feels like I will miss out on something amazing. That one is hard for me. 

I have my Progesterone checked every month to confirm ovulation. They do the draw 7 days after the suspected ovulation. I have never learned if it was a good O or not, just that I did. If you are trying naturally, I don't know if it would really help or not, other than the comfort that you are indeed ovulating. 

If this IUI doesn't work, than next month we will move into the ultrasound/blood monitoring and add a HCG trigger. I hope this cycle works and we don't need it BUT at least we have a plan in place if it doesn't. It would definitely help time my IUI correctly.


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## Christi85

Hi ladies,

sIg76 - thank you so much :hugs:
I love talking to UK ladies too :flower:
It's great to hear how much acupuncture helped you! I'm hearing that from so many people! Just yesterday I heard about a lady who had fibroids and she got treated with homeopathy and they were gone :thumbup: Her doctor was trying to talk her into having surgery, which she didn't want to do, and they were amazed a few months later when her fibroids had vanished in her next ultrasound :thumbup:

Hatethewait - I'm the same. I just can't imagine my life without kids, either my own or adopted, it doesn't matter. I think for us it is still a bit early to begin adoption, as I want to give all the natural stuff a good shot first. I'm thinking at least a year. My logic tells me to even wait 2-3 years, but I'm not sure I could wait that long. Guess I'll find out how long I'm able to wait if I have to (I hope I won't have to) :winkwink:
I hear you about the long and arduous process of adoption. Though you never really know - there are people who are matched very quickly, since it's the birth mom who decides in private adoption. Generally speaking, younger (as in, under 40-45) heterosexual couples tend to be picked much more, so all of us would be in the more favorable category, if we went down that route. If we do go down the adoption route, my preference would be to find 3-5 agencies with low upfront fees (ideally $500 and under) and sign up with all of them in hopes of expanding the pool of birth moms who could be shown our profile. I wouldn't want to go with any agency who would want thousands upon thousands of upfront fees, as I think that would lower their incentive to work on our behalf. Plus you're kinda stuck with them if things don't work out. Speaking of, I'd also want to only work with agencies who either roll over or down right reimburse you for any expenses if an adoption falls through. So finding the right agency(ies) could take a lot of time and research in itself.

Pirate- You are right, adoption is not an easy route, no matter how you do it. In many ways, life is simpler and less stressful when you are child free. There's a lot to be said about that too. Like I said before, it's very much down to the individual couple and their personal preferences, priorities, limits, life experiences etc. etc. When you are faced with infertility, there really is no right or wrong way to proceed. Only what feels right for you and your family. 

Mikihob - fingers crossed this cycle works!! Do keep us posted!


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## slg76

Hi ladies,

Pirate it struck me when you said, "I'm not sure if I'm in love with the notion of being a mother or if I'm in love with the notion of having kids." Sometimes I wonder if I'm in love with having another child or just angry that cancer took the choice away from me. I am beyond grateful that I have my daughter and feel like a second child would just be a bonus. I can't imagine how different this process would be for me if I didn't already have a child. I think if I don't get pregnant in the next 6 months we will call it quits and be happy with our little family as it is. 

Today I had one big follicle at 20 mm. My plan was to do an Ovidrel shot and IUI but I think I'm Oing on my own today. So, hubby is on his way home (he works out of town) and we will just do it the old fashioned way. My RE doesn't think the injections did anything for me because I make one follicle and ovulate on my own anyway. I'm going to acupuncture tomorrow to support implantation (should conception happen). I'm feeling very discouraged today but am trying to pick up my mood because being down in the dumps isn't going to help anything.


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## Christi85

Yay for ovulating and happy BDing :happydance: And yes, practice positive thinking :thumbup: Acupuncture will help too, I'm sure :happydance:
Your 6 month plan sounds good too. At the end of the day, all you can do is give your best and whatever happens!!

I forgot to add earlier that yes, I will definitely update you guys about Julia Indichova's sessions. I'm looking forward to them! First session is in the evening of June 10, followed by two more sessions on the 17th and 24th :thumbup:

Note: Since I'll be sticking to this forum for a while, it was about time I used an avatar :)


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## slg76

Christi, your avatar makes me laugh. It immediately popped into my head that my 3 year old thinks it's normal to "wee" in a cup since I do it so often :rofl:


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## Pirate

Love the avatar! 

@sig, 20mm is a pretty nice size follicle if I remember correctly! I hope it is the lucky one! 

I honestly think that I'm mourning the fact that I'll likely never be a mother quite a bit less than I'm mourning the fact that I'll never get to see what hubs plus me looks like, if that makes sense.


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## Hatethewait85

Pirate- That's good that your hubs has taken it so well and you two are on the same page. Every time we've failed to get pregnant, hubs seems more distraught than I am. More angry than sad though. Which makes me even sadder :cry: I think we'll have to set an end date soon, too. Actually, I'm pretty sure if we don't get a natural BFP or fail IVF in the fall (if we even go through with that) we will move on to adoption by the end of the year. 

slg- Hooray for O time. I'm hoping to not be far behind you. So we can share in the tww misery together! There's a lot of research on the benefits of acupuncture in supporting a pregnancy! So it's definitely a good thing to add that in there :thumbup:

Christi- Nice avatar! :) 

So I picked up some more opk's today and the girl checking me out said 'woah! those are expensive' and when the computer spit out a coupon with my receipt, she said 'hopefully you don't need more and you'll get a good result!' Of course she had no idea I wasn't buying a pregnancy test... wouldn't it be awesome to have no idea what an opk was?! Ha if only life was that simple...


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## slg76

my husband will also take it much harder than I will if we can't have another baby. He is more emotional than I am in general. He also had a very hard time with our miscarriage. I feel terrible for both of us that we can't just get pregnant like most other people. 

Yay, a 2WW buddy :friends: I hope you O soon. I'm almost certain I did today. My doctor said my blood work showed an LH surge and I had lots of CM and ovary pain. So on to the wait I go.....


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## Christi85

Haha, thanks girls :haha:

sIg - yay for the nice big follicle!! :happydance:

Pirate - what you say makes sense to me. I have thought of that myself.

Hatethewait and sIg - men's feelings are usually ignored when it comes to infertility. It's pretty sad, everyone tends to think it's just the woman who's suffering when sometimes men take it even worse. 
My hubby is somewhat disappointed, but somehow he is convinced that we will have children of our own, he says there's no doubt in his mind :wacko:
I don't know if this is denial or gut feeling, lol. Hoping for the latter :winkwink:

Yeah, it would be nice if life was as simple as this girl made it sound...
I've stopped using OPKs myself - way too stressful for me. We just make sure we have daily BD throughout the whole fertile window (and up to 2 days after I've ovulated, just to be sure :winkwink:). When we resume the 'sport' (I want to wait until I've had my post-op) I may consider adding BDing twice a day :winkwink:, since we don't have a sperm issue. 

Good luck on your 2WW :happydance:
I am still waiting for my AF. Who knows when it will arrive. Yesterday was 28 days and it hasn't made an appearance yet, though I wonder if the lap affected the timing. The discharge handout they gave me said it can take up to 4-6 weeks to resume menstrual cycles :wacko: though my doctor had said it shouldn't affect it :wacko: To me it makes more sense that it would have been affected by the lap, even though a hysteroscopy wasn't done with it. The system down there was still messed around with, so...
Of course I've been having light spotting ever since the surgery (again, that is supposed to be normal for up to 3-4 weeks), but nothing even closely resembling AF. So I'm just waiting for now...:coffee:
Meanwhile, I've started researching local homeopaths/acupuncturists and will hopefully make an appointment with someone in the coming weeks. I'd rather get my AF and be done with my post-op first though, before I see anyone.


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## Mikihob

Chrisit OPK's don't work for me either. In 2012 Clomid didn't work for me but I had positive OPK's every month. Now that Clomid is working, I can't seem to get a positive OPK to save my life. PCOS sucks. Female infertility is lame. :dohh: I did my IUI on May 30 and still don't have a positive. I am hoping to get one tonight or tomorrow. Yes it would mean I am not preggo but at least I could get a freakin positive. :wacko:

Ugh, rant over. I feel better. DH doesn't always understand the worrying and stressing over this.


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## Christi85

Turns out AF came on Saturday, just 2 days late :thumbup:
I'm glad it came when it did, as I was bracing myself for up to a 4 week delay :winkwink:
I want it done and over with, so that I can move on. Still researching acupuncturists, but I'm narrowing down my options. Hopefully I'll get to see someone soon.
In the meantime, I'm making changes to my diet and starting to eat healthier (meaning, organic only, substituting dairy with other things and avoiding wheat - the latter two are said to make endometriosis worse because they cause more inflammation). I'm still not 100% from the lap, but I'm wondering if I can start with some easy work outs later this week, as I'm starting to feel like a blob, lol :wacko:

Mikihob - did you have an ultrasound before your IUI to confirm you had ovulated? I thought that's what they did. I think ultrasounds would be much more reliable than OPKs, so if the ultrasound showed you had ovulated and you did your insemination at the right time, no need to worry about getting a positive OPK :winkwink: (by the way, if ovulation was confirmed by ultrasound, wouldn't the OPK be negative from now on, since you've already ovulated?)


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## Mikihob

Christi85 said:


> Mikihob - did you have an ultrasound before your IUI to confirm you had ovulated? I thought that's what they did. I think ultrasounds would be much more reliable than OPKs, so if the ultrasound showed you had ovulated and you did your insemination at the right time, no need to worry about getting a positive OPK :winkwink: (by the way, if ovulation was confirmed by ultrasound, wouldn't the OPK be negative from now on, since you've already ovulated?)

No it wasn't confirmed with an ultrasound. I am doing unmonitored cycles. I based this IUI on my period length. If this IUI doesn't work, I am moving into ultrasounds and an HCG trigger. My issue is that I am working with an OB/GYN since we don't have RE's in Fairbanks. If I get a positive OPK today for example it will help me narrow down ultrasound dates next month. Frustrating.


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## Christi85

Mikihob said:


> Christi85 said:
> 
> 
> Mikihob - did you have an ultrasound before your IUI to confirm you had ovulated? I thought that's what they did. I think ultrasounds would be much more reliable than OPKs, so if the ultrasound showed you had ovulated and you did your insemination at the right time, no need to worry about getting a positive OPK :winkwink: (by the way, if ovulation was confirmed by ultrasound, wouldn't the OPK be negative from now on, since you've already ovulated?)
> 
> No it wasn't confirmed with an ultrasound. I am doing unmonitored cycles. I based this IUI on my period length. If this IUI doesn't work, I am moving into ultrasounds and an HCG trigger. My issue is that I am working with an OB/GYN since we don't have RE's in Fairbanks. If I get a positive OPK today for example it will help me narrow down ultrasound dates next month. Frustrating.Click to expand...

I see. Well then, I hope then that you get your positive soon :thumbup:
Though even more than that, I hope that your OPKs didn't work, that you've already ovulated, that you did the IUI at the right time, and that you get a BFP in a few days :winkwink:
I don't think an RE is required for IUI. Definitely required for an IVF, but IUIs are much less 'technical'. I've heard of many OB/GYNS actually performing IUIs, so don't worry yourself about that :winkwink:


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## Mikihob

Thanks Chrisit. OPK's from May 23-yesterday all negative. I am officially done POAS. :wacko: 

I am hoping we caught the egg this time. If we have to move into IVF we have to travel out of state because Fairbanks doesn't have a fertility clinic or doctors who can do that here. Dumb huh?. We were thinking of Seattle Reproductive Medicine or maybe doing egg sharing at a clinic in Texas. 

It's all planned out. I am a planner afterall. :thumbup: DH always gives me a hard time because I try to plan EVERYTHING. :haha: 

How are you doing?


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## Christi85

I've everything crossed for you Mikihob :happydance:
It sucks that you'd have to travel to another state to have IVF - let's hope it's not needed :winkwink:
Egg sharing is at least a cheaper alternative to egg donorship that's so expensive!!

I hear you about planning everything - I'm the same way :wacko:

I'm doing well, better every day. Nothing much to report for now, but I should have plenty of news next week after I start Julia Indichova's sessions and also after my post-op on Monday. 

On an irrelevant note, I don't know how many of you have been following Pirate's journal, but we may not be hearing from her for a while. She has decided she needs a break from it all, baby making, BnB and all, which is probably a wise decision. Since she was one of the first people to join this thread and support me when I was at my worst, I feel like I'm going to miss her and I secretly hope she changes her mind and comes back soon (but at the end of the day, I know she needs to do what's best for her, and that's what I wish for her, wholeheartedly). I wrote all that in her journal too, but I wanted to say it here as well, as I feel she's been an important contributor to this thread for the short time it has been running :cry: Hope to see you again (hopefully soon) Pirate! Take care of yourself and feel better! :hugs:


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## Christi85

I dropped the ball here lately, but there's literally not much to report.
I had my first teleconference session with Julia Indichova and the group yesterday and as promised, I am updating you on how it went:

It was the first part of a 3 part intro series. It officially lasts for an hour and a half, but it ran to almost 2 hours. We must have been about 8-9 ladies calling in to the seminar (you can call via regular phone with a long distance connection or via skype - I did skype and paid only about $2.70 for the -almost - 2 hour call). After an introduction, we started with some relaxation and visualization exercises, which I personally found very useful. I was entirely relaxed, which was a small miracle given that I've been quite stressed lately and the fact that our apartment is near a busy street, so it wasn't exactly quiet outside (though I made sure it was dead quiet inside, and I pretty much locked myself into a room not to be disturbed by anything :winkwink:). We then did more visualization plus another exercise where we had to complete sentences given to us, with the goal of discovering what comes to the surface when we are relaxed and really trying to dive into ourselves. For the last part of the session, Julia invited some of the ladies in the group to speak about their experiences and struggles (all fertility related) and then she got them to do the exercises with her, and I have to say, some very very interesting things surfaced from those lovely ladies. I admit I was in tears a few times hearing them. Julia would then either make subtle recommendations on what they could work more on or suggesting additional exercises etc. I wasn't invited to speak this time, but hearing the other ladies speak about themselves was very beneficial in itself. And I now know how to do these particular exercises to dive into myself if needed.

Julia followed up with an email today to all of us with suggestions on exercises we could work on for next time, as well as things to read/reflect upon/pay attention to (e.g. dreams - a big part of the practice). We are free to email her for anything we need and we have been encouraged to email her with regards to specific 'assignments' she gave so that we can engage with her directly and get her help, feedback, whatever. She also set up a closed 'forum' just for us in this group to post/support each other if desired. 

The goal of Julia's whole practice is to gradually discover yourself and dig deeper and deeper into what may be troubling or blocking you, and then embracing yourself as a whole - the fears, doubts, blames or whatever other negative emotions/thoughts, as well as learning to trust the wisdom we all have within, giving it a voice and acting on it, while acting compassionately towards what's holding you back (so the goal is not to actually block those negative voices/feelings or make them shut up, but to actually embrace them and use them in creative ways, so that they don't determine us anymore and become driving forces instead). Of course all this is easier said than done, and much and consistent practice is needed using all the tools available through the courses: visualization exercises, body-mind work, perhaps even lifestyle changes etc. It is still very early but I am happy I joined this community. I feel it is something I need in my life right now, given the path I'm taking.

Personally, based on the little I've experienced, I would recommend it as a useful tool. I do have to say though, it is stressed that consistent, daily practice is needed for any results to start coming through, and I would personally add that reading at least her Fertile Female book before taking any of these sessions is a very good idea, as she uses a lot of terminology mentioned in that book that could sound strange or even incomprehensible to someone not familiar with it. I think I would have felt lost if I had taken the seminar without having read the book. I don't own her imagery exercise CDs yet (there's 4 of them adding up to a total of $115), but I intend to get them soon. It is not required or anything, but since many of the imagery exercises are taken from those CDs (they are a 'deeper' and more thorough step from the Fertile Female book), I feel that diving into it seriously and consistently cannot be done without them.

So that is that. Obviously I can't share any specifics about the exercises or methods used, as I don't own the copyright to those, neither can I talk specifically about what was discussed in this group in relation to what challenges other participants are facing, but I will say this practice can become a very useful and powerful life tool, if used correctly and with lots of patience and perserverance. So thumbs up for me :thumbup:

In other news, I'm yet to go to an acupuncturist/natural medicine specialist. I don't know what's holding me back, but I still want to do it soon. On Monday I had my post-op, and while everything seems ok from the lap, my doctor still wanted me to do fertility treatments asap due to my low AMH. I told her I wasn't ready, she suggested I could try IUI if I thought IVF was too hardcore, but I said I'd have to think about it and that was the end of it. I don't want to think about AMH or other fertility problems anymore, and fertility treatments are not in the cards for me right now. I just feel this strong need to go on to my healing path and more than anything, RELAX. This is what I need most right now.


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## Mikihob

That sounds very useful. I am glad that you got so much out of the first session. Yes, having low AMH does kinda put a rush on things, but if you aren't ready- rushing it could actually stress you out too much that IVF won't work. If you can get to a point you are healthier, happier and less stressed and still need fertility treatments you will have a better chance of getting pregnant because you will be relaxed. 

One of the other ladies here has a low AMH and did IVF last July. She now has a baby boy who was born in March. She gotten pregnant with twins and lost on at about 7-9 weeks (can't remember exactly). 

I am happy to hear that you are doing so well and focusing on yourself for a bit. DH and I might do that if this IUI and the next fail. A break is sometimes the best medicine. :flower: :hugs:


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## Christi85

Quick update: I finally booked an appointment with a naturopath/acupuncturist for Wednesday morning. I'll be going in for a first consultation and my first ever acupuncture session. I hope to discuss diet changes and herbs as well. I'm quite excited and hopeful :thumbup:

That, and tomorrow is my second phone session with the Julia Indichova group, which I'm also looking forward to :thumbup:


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## Hatethewait85

Sorry I disappeared from the thread for awhile. Life really has been keeping me way to busy. Sounds like the phone conferences are a good resource for you Christi. I'm so glad you signed up with an acupuncturist!! Good luck tomorrow. Can't wait to hear how it goes!


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## Christi85

Today I had my first meeting with the acupuncturist. She specializes in infertility and pregnancy (also in orthopedics, but that doesn't apply to me), which was one reason why I picked her. The other reason being that she was close to home.

I told her all about my diagnosis and infertility. She recommended herbs that will help balance all my hormones, which is great because I'd long suspected hormonal imbalances (interestingly, she said that sometimes hormones look good on paper, but this may not actually always be the case in reality). She doesn't think my endometriosis is causing my infertility, especially since it's not blocking anything (tubes are open etc.), so she said it should be enough to treat it with the hormonal balance treatment, because that will also help blood flow more freely, which does help endo. She didn't feel that treating the endo alone would make a difference fertility-wise. So I'm going to take her advice. As for the low AMH, she said that it's only a problem at this stage if the quality of my eggs is also compromised, which there is no way of knowing of course. But she is prescribing supplements that will boost egg quality, which I was also very happy about :happydance:

I also had my first acupuncture session which was very relaxing. She wants to see me for acupuncture once a week and possibly twice on the days before my ovulation, because at that time she wants to boost my ovarian function with electro-acupuncture. Which I told her it sounded a little scary, lol :haha:
So she sent me home with 10 bottles of herbs and supplements :wacko:, some of which I'll be taking throughout the cycle, while others are tailored to specific parts of the cycle (menstrual, follicular, ovulatory and luteal), and we'll be adjusting doses accordingly as needed, if needed. I'm free to discontinue prenatal vitamins - yay! :happydance:
I was also given a chart to fill out with details of what I eat, drink etc., bowel movements, sleep patterns etc. on a daily basis, which I need to do for a week and bring back to our next acupuncture session next week. This will give her additional information on me and she may make diet or lifestyle change recommendations.

Finally, during our initial discussion, she flat out told me that she cannot guarantee me that I will get pregnant, but I'd be worried if she did. I mean, nobody knows - not us, not the acupuncturists, not even the REs with the fancy expensive treatments. She said what she can promise is that we should be able to regulate my hormones and balance my cycles, boost ovarian function and quality of eggs, and bring stress levels down, all of which are music to my ears. If a baby comes along with that at some point, this would be a bonus!
She also said that some of her patients prefer not to TTC for the first month of taking herbs just to give their body time to adjust to the hebrs, but that it's up to me. I of course would love to keep trying without interruption, but I've heard other acupuncturists/herbalists advise not to try for the first month. Not sure why that is, but as of now my intention is to try as normal next month as well (barring any unforseen circumstances of course).


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## Hatethewait85

Sounds like a really productive first session! My acupuncture asks about all of those things too. A chart to track would be kind of nice because I think I tend to forget everything that happens in the week between appointments :blush:

My acupuncturist wanted us to hold of on TTC the first month of herbs because of the herbs. And you know what happened the first month we tried after that :winkwink: If she didn't say the herbs would be problem while ttc, I'd totally keep ttc! Good luck!!


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## Christi85

Thank you Hatethewait :flower:

Yes, this is what I thought I had heard about herbs and TTC for the first month. Maybe I'll ask her again next week, but she did say it was up to me. She did say though, she wanted to know what we had decided (TTC or not TTC). I wonder if we do TTC whether she will switch the dosage - we will see. I'm currently on CD21, so I expect to get AF in 6-8 days from now, so plenty of time until my next fertile window. 

I'm doing the Blossom 4 Phases herbal treatment, I don't know if it is different to other herbal treatments. It does say in the instructions to discontinue when you become pregnant (notice the 'when', not 'if' :winkwink: lol). The instructions also say that each course is 3 months, and that results can usually be seen within 1-3 courses (meaning, anything from 3-9 months). I wonder if that means that, if I'm not pregnant after 9 cycles, this treatment wasn't the right one for me??? :wacko:
Anyway, the instructions are also very adamant about being calm and relaxed during a cycle, which...hmm, is the hardest part I think.

Hatewait, since you had unexplained infertility, maybe the herbs was all you needed :happydance:
I've told you before in your journal that your story is a great inspiration for me, it made me very hopeful and I took it as a good sign for me too :flower:

I realized I'm taking 21 capsules a day :wacko: 9 of them are the herbs and 12 are the supplements (that were meant to replace my prenatals): flaxseed oil, royal jelly, L'Arginine, CoQ10, wheat germ oil, and vitamin D3 since I had low levels before. I take 10 capsules in the morning, 6 in the afternoon and 5 in the evening. Talk about crazy :wacko:
I have created a daily chart (yet another one!) on my PC, so that I can keep track of what I take and when.


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## Christi85

I also wanted to add, because I know we have ladies in this thread (yours truly included) with AMH issues: I did some research yesterday on the CoQ10 co-enzyme which is the one that is supposed to envigorate the eggs, improve quality etc. (I think L'Arginine also does that among other things). I found this article which I found extremely hopeful and wanted to share it:

https://www.hans.org/magazine/995/Slowing-the-Reproductive-Clock

Especially the part that reads: 
_Until now western reproductive medicine has insisted that a woman is born with a fixed number of eggs and that the sharp decline in the quality and quantity of eggs after age 35 is irreversible. However, new studies challenge the absoluteness of this view. A recent study from Mount Sinai Hospital in Toronto on coenzyme-Q10 (Co-Q10) and egg quality suggests that, in fact, it may be possible to improve egg quality and slow down or even reverse the aging process.

In the study, scientists found that by injecting old, retired breeder mice with the antioxidant Co-Q10, they were able to stimulate more eggs to develop, and the genetic quality of these eggs--their youthfulness--resembled those of mice eggs in their reproductive prime. The offspring of these older mice, who were the equivalent of a 50-year human, were as healthy as those from younger mothers. It appeared that the Co-Q10 was actually able to rejuvenate the mitochondria (the cell's power source) and repair damage to the DNA. _

Also, in the support group I attend with Julia I. there are several ladies with AMH issues (or low AMH-high FSH issues). Julia is very insistent on not dwelling on the numbers per se. She was telling us that, when she was trying to conceive at age 42, 20+ years ago, no doctor would take her with her FSH numbers which were considered too high (even though she brought them down to half, they still wouldn't take her for treatment because the mentality at the time was 'you're as good as your highest FSH'). AMH was not known yet. She's been following research developments since then and was telling us that nowadays doctors aren't as adamant about high FSH as they used to be, and that several studies have proven that there is hope even with a high FSH. So she was telling us that AMH could be the same. It only started being widely used as a marker 5-6 years ago, as of now serious research is lacking to show exactly what this hormone means about a woman's fertility, and that she wouldn't be surprised if the absolutedness of today's views on AMH is shaken further down the line by some new research. Just like it happened with the FSH absolutedness eventually. And I think this article I linked to proves exactly that - there is always hope :flower:


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## slg76

thanks for sharing your article! An hour ago I bought CoQ10 and DHEA to start taking! I'm hopeful that it will make a difference. I do O every month on my own but they don't seem to be great eggs because I can't get pregnant.


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## Christi85

slg76 said:


> thanks for sharing your article! An hour ago I bought CoQ10 and DHEA to start taking! I'm hopeful that it will make a difference. I do O every month on my own but they don't seem to be great eggs because I can't get pregnant.

I think this is a good idea. You got nothing to lose anyway :winkwink:
I think I am the same. I ovulate on my own, but haven't seemed to produce a good enough egg that will be fertilized and stick, so far. I had the endo cyst in my right ovary (now removed) and it is possible that it may have compromised my egg quality on that ovary (that was also the ovary with the low follicle number), so hopefully I will be able to improve quality over time. Though I do have a seemingly perfect ovary (the left one), with no endo, normal follicle count etc. and it still hasn't happened. But oh well, I'm hopeful :flower:
Let us know how it goes.


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## Hatethewait85

I'm not sure I can thank the coq10 but I've been taking it (ubiquonol) 100mg 3x/day for the past 2 months. I stopped it Monday when I got my bfp. But my doc did suspect that I made crappy eggs...


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## Christi85

Hatethewait85 said:


> I'm not sure I can thank the coq10 but I've been taking it (ubiquonol) 100mg 3x/day for the past 2 months. I stopped it Monday when I got my bfp. But my doc did suspect that I made crappy eggs...

:happydance::happydance::happydance:


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## Pirate

Congrats, Hatethewait!


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## Hatethewait85

Pirate said:


> Congrats, Hatethewait!

Thanks, Pirate!


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## slg76

Congratulations HtheW!!! What exciting news! :dance:


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## NDurham12

Hi Ladies,


It's pretty late but I wanted to post here to get subscribed to this thread. 

I had endo and fibroids removed back in May after a failed hsg revealed I had blocked tubes. My amh is also very low .73 and I'm 34 in 3 weeks. I only read the first two and last page but I will definitely catch up on who everyone is. 

At time I so feel so lonely in this journey.


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## Christi85

Welcome NDurham12! :thumbup:

I had my second acupuncture session today - my acupuncturist was away on vacation this week, so I saw someone else. She was still very good. It felt really good and I was able to relax pretty well, which I'm happy about. The only thing I'm wondering about: she asked what part of the cycle I'm at, and I told her that I was expecting AF sometime between tomorrow and the weekend, unless I got pregnant this cycle (which I don't think so). So she put the heat lamp over my abdomen, presumably to help ease any PMS symptoms (the herbs are supposed to help with that too). As soon as I got home from the acu session, I had some light red bleeding (sorry for TMI). So I got a little pissed off, because I didn't want AF to come sooner that expected :wacko: and I wonder if that prompted it to start earlier. Ugh! We'll see if it was just that for today, or if it will come full flow later. 
Last night (TMI alert again :blush:) hubby and I had some action :winkwink: and there were 2-3 teeny-tiny blood tinges afterwards after I wiped. So it might have been on her way anyway. Of course the herbs I take during the luteal phase are supposed to help with proper lining shedding, so I wonder if this is what I'm experiencing as the body is adjusting to the herbs. Then again, I can't help but wonder: since these herbs are designed for fertility and mimic the 4 parts of the cycle, aren't they supposed to keep the lining thick and strong in case conception has taken place?? Instead of actually facilitating lining shedding? And could they affect a possible pregnancy by bringing the opposite result? I know I'm supposed to discontinue use as soon as I find out I'm pregnant (whenever that is, if it happens), but what about the days between implantation and a missed period or a positive HPT? I'm too neurotic, aren't I? Lol :haha:
I need to ask my acupuncturist next week when I see her again...So many questions...


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## Hatethewait85

slg76 said:


> Congratulations HtheW!!! What exciting news! :dance:

Thanks!!!!


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## NDurham12

Christi85 said:


> Welcome NDurham12! :thumbup:
> 
> I had my second acupuncture session today - my acupuncturist was away on vacation this week, so I saw someone else. She was still very good. It felt really good and I was able to relax pretty well, which I'm happy about. The only thing I'm wondering about: she asked what part of the cycle I'm at, and I told her that I was expecting AF sometime between tomorrow and the weekend, unless I got pregnant this cycle (which I don't think so). So she put the heat lamp over my abdomen, presumably to help ease any PMS symptoms (the herbs are supposed to help with that too). As soon as I got home from the acu session, I had some light red bleeding (sorry for TMI). So I got a little pissed off, because I didn't want AF to come sooner that expected :wacko: and I wonder if that prompted it to start earlier. Ugh! We'll see if it was just that for today, or if it will come full flow later.
> Last night (TMI alert again :blush:) hubby and I had some action :winkwink: and there were 2-3 teeny-tiny blood tinges afterwards after I wiped. So it might have been on her way anyway. Of course the herbs I take during the luteal phase are supposed to help with proper lining shedding, so I wonder if this is what I'm experiencing as the body is adjusting to the herbs. Then again, I can't help but wonder: since these herbs are designed for fertility and mimic the 4 parts of the cycle, aren't they supposed to keep the lining thick and strong in case conception has taken place?? Instead of actually facilitating lining shedding? And could they affect a possible pregnancy by bringing the opposite result? I know I'm supposed to discontinue use as soon as I find out I'm pregnant (whenever that is, if it happens), but what about the days between implantation and a missed period or a positive HPT? I'm too neurotic, aren't I? Lol :haha:
> I need to ask my acupuncturist next week when I see her again...So many questions...

You know I am going to try and get a groupon for an acupuncturist. 

Herbs? What herbs? I'll go back and try and find more information if you already posted it. 

I just got 400MG progesterone suppositories, but the nurse said to take them CD17, which is very bizarre. I will be doing more research!


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## Christi85

NDurham12 - sorry, I never got a notification that you had responded :blush:. I am not working with an RE anymore (decided to stay away from fertility treatments, at least for the time being). Instead, I'm working with an acupuncturist/herbalist and I take herbs along with nutritional supplements to try and re-balance my hormones. I only started a week or two ago, so it remains to be seen whether anything will come out of it. Natural/traditional Chinese medicine usually stays away from prescribing straight hormones (they rather prescribe herbs that are supposed to boost specific hormones), but I have taken progesterone suppositories in the past. I wonder if what the nurse meant was for you to start taking the suppositories from CD17 onwards, as these are usually prescribed for the second part of the cycle.

Vent time: my AF has gone crazy :wacko:. I was expecting it sometime between Thursday and Saturday. Instead, all I have (since Wednesday) is brown spotting :wacko: but no period. I had some red bleeding Friday morning and thought I must have been starting my period (and immediately switched to the herbs that are supposed to be taken during menstruation), but to my astonishment, the bleeding subsided and went back to brown spotting later that day. I am not pregnant as far as I know (took a pregnancy test this morning and it was a clear negative, though if this continues I'll be taking another one in 2-3 days just to rule it out completely, though I don't think it's that). I've stopped the herbs and waiting for the real AF to show up (I contacted my acupuncturist and she agreed it was the right thing to do). I do have some cramping and very slightly sore boobs (typical AF symptoms for me), but no sign of it other than the brown discharge :growlmad: Also, I suck at BBT but I have a method to predict when AF will show up that has always worked for me in the past: I actually take my temperature every night at around the same time the week before AF. The night before AF shows up, there is always a temperature drop. Without fail, I've been getting AF within a day of seeing my temperature drop. This time it hasn't dropped yet, so I'll be surprised if I get it tomorrow. I do hope it shows up soon. I know these all sound like pregnancy symptoms, but I seriously doubt it is that. Plus the test I took was one of those early pregnancy strips that claim to be very sensitive, and it was a clear negative. I don't want to think it's the herbs that caused this mess, but I can't help wondering. I'll talk to the acupuncturist more at our Wednesday appointment, especially if AF is still awol and pregnancy is ruled out.
I can also think of a few other things that might have affected this cycle:
1) it was the first full cycle after my lap
2) I have made diet changes to include more endo friendly (or rather, anti-endo) foods and exclude problem foods as much as I can
3) I had A LOT of stress
All these could have contributed, alongside the herbs, but I'm still worried as to why this is happening. It's not unheard of for me to spot before AF, but never more than 3-4 days, and today marks the end of spotting day 5 (going on day 6) with still no AF in sight :growlmad:

Phew, vent over!! :cry:


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## NDurham12

No problem Christi. 

I'm sorry AF is being so wishywashy. Either come or go...don't like the inbetween stage. It could be your hormones doing what the herbs are intended to do. 

I'm interested to know how things go. I'm not at the point of doing acupuncture yet, as I've already spent a large amount on herbs and the like from my Naturopathy doctor.


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## Pirate

You're AF sounds like it is doing exactly what mine did, and you know how that worked out. I just hate the limbo and know that you do too. I hope that she shows up soon!


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## Christi85

Thanks NDurham - the herbs at this stage were supposed to actually help the lining shed etc. so it doesn't make much sense that they'd have the exact opposite effect :wacko: We'll see what happens. I wouldn't mind if this was my AF for this month (a wacky period every few years is not a big deal), the only weird thing is that my boobs are still sore, which always goes away after AF is here. I took a second pregnancy test this morning though and it's still negative. My acupuncturist said that the herbs can take 3-4 months to regulate a cycle, and that 'irregular bleeding' is not unheard of. Except this was when my AF was supposed to come. But I've stopped the herbs for now and will not be starting them again until I get a full AF.

If you're currently taking herbs and progesterone suppositories, be sure to ask your doctor if it's ok to take them together. I know most times they say not to mix herbs with hormones. I've only done acupuncture twice (this week will be my third session) and it's mostly been good to help me relax. I think it may be too early to see other changes.

Pirate- if you mean the horrible 'monster' AF you just had, I really hope the same doesn't happen to me :cry:. It's the last thing I need. I hate the limbo too :growlmad:


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## Pirate

I absolutely hope you don't have to go through what I went through. I thought I was going to bleed to death (only a slight exaggeration). I meant toying with you with all of the spotting. There are few things worse than limbo!


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## Christi85

Pirate said:


> I absolutely hope you don't have to go through what I went through. I thought I was going to bleed to death (only a slight exaggeration). I meant toying with you with all of the spotting. There are few things worse than limbo!

Very true about the limbo...
Luckily I have a busy day ahead, so I can get it out of my mind. I am desperate for AF to come though, so that I can get back on track :wacko:
Seeing as I have 2 negative 'early response' tests (taken a couple days after a 'missed period' when they are supposed to show even before a missed period), I don't think pregnancy is a realistic possibility. More like my hormones are out of wack :cry:


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## Pirate

Hugs! This just sucks!


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## Christi85

Pirate said:


> Hugs! This just sucks!

Thank you :hugs:


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## NDurham12

Christi85 said:


> Thanks NDurham - the herbs at this stage were supposed to actually help the lining shed etc. so it doesn't make much sense that they'd have the exact opposite effect :wacko: We'll see what happens. I wouldn't mind if this was my AF for this month (a wacky period every few years is not a big deal), the only weird thing is that my boobs are still sore, which always goes away after AF is here. I took a second pregnancy test this morning though and it's still negative. My acupuncturist said that the herbs can take 3-4 months to regulate a cycle, and that 'irregular bleeding' is not unheard of. Except this was when my AF was supposed to come. But I've stopped the herbs for now and will not be starting them again until I get a full AF.
> 
> If you're currently taking herbs and progesterone suppositories, be sure to ask your doctor if it's ok to take them together. I know most times they say not to mix herbs with hormones. I've only done acupuncture twice (this week will be my third session) and it's mostly been good to help me relax. I think it may be too early to see other changes.
> 
> Pirate- if you mean the horrible 'monster' AF you just had, I really hope the same doesn't happen to me :cry:. It's the last thing I need. I hate the limbo too :growlmad:


So my naturopath dr perscribed me the following:
1. Naturaly Pure Lymphatic Care - Herbal Supplement (3 caps)
2. Chi's Enterprise - Myomin - Herb Blend - 1000mg (2 caps) 2xday
i. Astragalus Membranaceus, Curcuma Zedoaria, Cyperus Rotundas
 Metabolize excess estrogen
 Inhibit aromatase
 Balance excess hormone levels and help normalize hormonal systems
 From <https://www.amazon.com/Chis-Enterprise-Myomin/dp/B00AAH403G> 
3. Chi's Enterprise - Angiostop - Sea Cucumber - 1000mg (2 caps) 2xday
 Angiostop is a broad spectrum angiogenesis and RTK inhibitor. It has three mechanisms.
 Inhibits receptor tyrosine kinases (RTKs) and angiogenesis: It blocks new blood vessel formation (angiogenesis) from abnormal growths by inhibiting four RTKs overexpressed in malignancies: vascular endothelial growth factor receptor (VEGFR), epidermal growth factor receptor (EGFR), platelet-derived growth factor receptor (PDGFR) and fibroblast growth factor receptor (FGFR). RTK inhibition also leads to blocking proliferation, invasion and metastasis.
 Induces apoptosis: By inducing apoptosis, it allows the natural death of malignant cells.
 From <https://www.amazon.com/Chis-Enterprise-Angiostop-120-caps/dp/B002JFEOQU/ref=sr_1_1?s=hpc&ie=UTF8&qid=1404065565&sr=1-1&keywords=angiostop> 
4. Chi's Enterprise - Revivin - Blend (2 caps) 2xday
i. Hemsleya chinese - 280mg
ii. Calophyllum inophllum - 210mg
iii. Sparosma ternatum - 140mg
iv. Schefflera octophylla - 70mg
Chi's Enterprise Revivin is an herbal extract of*Fritillaria Unibracteata, a flowering plant in the Liliaceae family. In Traditional Chinese Medicine,Fritillaria*is considered to have bitter, sweet, and mildly cold properties. Revivin may have an effect as a possible G1-S inhibi
From <https://healthygoods.com/chi-s-enterprise-revivin.html#> 
5. Chi's Enterprise - Organic Germanium - Germantium (GE-132) - 100mg

I've been searching around and will ask about taking Chi-F too. 

I had fibriods removed back in May, so these should help keep them from forming again..


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## Christi85

I don't even know the names of the herbs I'm taking. They're all listed on the bottles.
I'm taking the Blossom herbs (manufacturer is Evergreen) and there are Phases 1, 2, 3 and 4, a different bottle for each part of the cycle - menstrual, follicular, ovulation and luteal.
These are the only herbs I take. She also gave me a bunch of daily supplements:
-Royal jelly capsules 500mg (1/day)
-Flaxseed oil capsules 1000mg (1/day)
-L-Arginine 500mg (2/day)
-CoQ10 200mg (3/day)
-Vitamin D3 1000IU (2/day)
She also gave me wheat germ oil 385mg (3/day), but as I've gone gluten free to improve my health and digestion, I took it for 2 days and my stomach/bowels weren't very happy. So I've stopped it for now and will talk to her at our next session on Wednesday to find out if there's anything I can substitute with that's gluten free.


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## NDurham12

Oh I'll have to look the herbs up to see what's in them. 

For the supplements I take some of those. Been wanting to add coQ10 for a few days now. Will probably add it next week. I heard about the L-araginie but haven't researche'd it yet.


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## Christi85

NDurham12 said:


> Oh I'll have to look the herbs up to see what's in them.
> 
> For the supplements I take some of those. Been wanting to add coQ10 for a few days now. Will probably add it next week. I heard about the L-araginie but haven't researche'd it yet.

Since you are working with a naturopath, ask them for their recommendations and suggested dosage. They'll know what to suggest and they will tailor the dosage to your individual case.

This is from Evergreen's website. Scroll down for the Blossom Phases 1-4:
https://www.evherbs.com/evshop/inde...art&page=shop.browse&category_id=79&Itemid=64

Unfortunately they don't seem to list the herbs contained in them. I would type them out, but they're like 10-15 herbs for each phase (x4 phases), so it would take forever and would be a very long list.
They seem to be all the traditional Chinese herbs for qi balancing, kidney toning etc.


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## Christi85

Ladies,
I've been very silent here for the last couple weeks, for which I apologize. There was a reason for my silence as things have been beyond crazy lately (warning - long update to follow, please read 'till the end as there are many twists and turns to the story). 

In the morning of July 2, after 2 negative pregnancy tests in previous days, I decided to take one more pregnancy test (this time I switched to First Response from the test sticks). Lo and behold, it came back with an immediate and strong positive! I was in shock and couldn't believe this was happening. First ever BFP in 1,5 years of TTC. I was elated but very nervous at the same time. To add to all that, I had no OB/GYN to call, as my RE had been my OB/GYN for the past few months, but I had made the decision to walk away from her practice. It was also just days before the 4th of July long weekend, so I was at a loss. The plan I came up with was to go to a walk-in lab and pay cash for a beta to at least confirm that this was real, and after I had that confirmation, call around to make an appointment with a new OB/GYN right after the long weekend. I did that in the morning of July 3 (at an estimated 4 weeks 5 days along, based on last AF) and at the last minute, I also decided to have a progesterone test thrown in since I have a history of low progesterone. 

July 4 everything was closed. But on the 5th, early in the morning, the lab emailed me my results. Beta was looking fine for 4w5d at 273, but my progesterone levels were nothing but discouraging. I tested at 7.2 when the absolute lowest should have been 9, but a lot of doctors will also tell you that 15-20 is preferable to show good possibilities of a viable pregnancy. I was very alarmed and instantly upset and having no OB/GYN yet and it being the long weekend, I panicked, thinking that I needed progesterone supplementation like yesterday. I ended up finding an urgent care clinic that was open and hubby and I drove there instantly. The doctor who saw us was not an OB/GYN but he was at least happy to prescribe some supplementation. He advised me to see an OB/GYN asap (duh!) and said that at such low progesterone numbers, I may be at a higher risk either for an ectopic or for a non viable pregnancy. I spent the rest of that weekend crying.

Monday morning I was lucky enough to find a local OB/GYN with good reviews and his staff were able to squeeze me in for a first appointment later that day. Doc gave me an early ultrasound, which confirmed the presence of an early gestational sac, thickened lining around it, in the right place etc. It all looked good, but I was only 5 weeks 2 days along at that time. He doubled the dose of my progesterone supplementation and ordered another beta and a new progesterone blood test. I heard back the next day. The beta had shot up to 2300, but the progesterone remained low at 8.3 (at least it had risen). He didn't sound too concerned over the phone, told me to keep taking my progesterone, and that the most important thing was the beta rising. He had me make another appointment for two weeks later to check for a fetus and hopefully a heartbeat.

Fast forward to today after an agonizing two weeks. 7 weeks 2 days along based on last AF. Vaginal ultrasound showed the sac had grown considerably since last time, BUT there was no sign of a fetus, anywhere. Just an empty sac. He even had me move to the other u/s machine to give me an abdominal one just to make sure, which also showed nothing. Then he gave me another vaginal one on that other machine, with the same result. Hubby was with me and we were both devastated. I never felt sure about this pregnancy, but of course I was secretly hoping that we'd get to see our baby and hear a heart beat, so seeing just the empty sac (I guess that's the same thing as a 'blighted ovum') was just heart breaking. He didn't order any new beta blood tests, but wants me to go back in a week just to make sure that there definitely is no baby in there - though at this point, he said he'd expect to see at least something today. Which I'd expect too. He wasn't too encouraged. Nevertheless, I'm going back in a week, pretty much expecting no change. I'm continuing with the progesterone just in the off chance there has been a misdiagnosis, but the u/s together with my low progesterone at the start of the pregnancy aren't good signs. So I'm expecting that my first ever pregnancy is just lost and gone. If today's diagnosis is confirmed next Monday, I will have to decide between a D&C and medication to speed up miscarriage. I've no idea what I may opt for, but right now I can't bear the thought of experiencing a miscarriage on top of everything else, so I think I may go for the D&C (even though there is risk of scarring etc. like with any abdominal surgery - however I do know of several people who had a D&C after miscarriages and went on to have healthy pregnancies later).

My feelings are mixed. I feel devastated and guilty and upset, and I just think I didn't need this right now. I'd always said I'd rather not get pregnant at all than get pregnant and deal with miscarriages etc. But oh well, at least I know I'm able to conceive and that I was right in not pursuing fertility treatment. I think I will continue with acupuncture and will start the herbs again once all this is past me and will hope for another, healthy pregnancy in the not-so-distant future. In a weird way, I feel much more powerful and reassured that I should be able to conceive again (and I now know to ask my doctor for progesterone supplementation to take right after I ovulate in each cycle, just to be sure) and hopefully this time carry a healthy full term pregnancy. At the same time, since all this is very emotionally taxing, I feel like I can't possibly keep being on the TTC journey forever, though I still want a family very badly. Driving back from the doc's office today, I was thinking that I'd maybe allow hubby and I another year or so of TTC, and if nothing has happened by then (either no new pregnancy at all, or no healthy, viable pregnancy), then we should embark on the adoption process, which would at least give us the luxury of time and not thinking about diminishing ovarian reserves etc. etc.


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## Pirate

I'm so sorry this is happening to you. It's just not fair.


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## Mikihob

Christi how devastatingly awful. I am so, so sorry. I also felt that I would rather not get pregnant than have to deal with a miscarriage. I can't imagine what you are going through. I wish I had some great advice. This is totally unfair and cruel. You just had a terrible AF and now this. We are all here for you, in whatever decision you choose. I agree, that at least you know that you CAN get pregnant and that you don't NEED fertility treatments. That in itself is a little comforting, but not nearly enough. :hugs: :hugs: :hugs: :hugs: :hugs:


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## Christi85

Thank you so much ladies!:flower:

I am naturally quite devastated, but at the same time keeping a level head about it. There were a couple bad signs from the beginning, so I wasn't too surprised today, though of course I was heartbroken. 

Mikihob- thank you! The stupid AF I had turned out to be due to the pregnancy, so at least there's an explanation. I just light-spotted brown discharge for a week straight (getting less every day until it stopped completely), so I never got a real AF after my last proper AF on 5/31. I would consider this one a pseudo-AF, as I ended up getting a BFP later that week. Of course it's good to know that natural conception is possible, but since no baby will probably come out of it (which is the goal, right?) it's not nearly good enough, like you said. And yes, life can be very unfair. I soooo need a vacation!!! 

I also feel we've had so many ladies in this forum with miscarriages and ectopics in the past month (I can think of 3 off the top of my head), and now mine which is most likely a blighted ovum - we've all had our fair share. The exact same thing with a blighted ovum/empty sac also happened to a good friend of mine a couple years ago and she didn't find out until week 11 (she's in the UK and they don't do ultrasounds until week 12 there, but she started spotting, so they agreed to see her earlier). She was devastated as she wasn't prepared for this possibility at all, she had told everybody right away that she was pregnant and she was having normal pregnancy symptoms (some of which I'm having as well - since my body is still confused!). Then she went to find out it was just an empty sac and she was shocked. Lucky for her, she fell pregnant again about 6 or 8 months later and now has a 2 year old. But she also didn't have any known fertility issues, and the blighted ovum actually happened on their first month TTC, so I'd expect my case to be a little more complicated than hers... :nope: Just sayin'


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## Hatethewait85

Oh Christi, I am so terribly sorry to hear you are going through this. It is incredibly crappy to have your first ever BFP tainted by pain, stress, and all this unknown. Sending you massive hugs. I know it doesn't seem likely but I am hoping you get the biggest, happiest surprise next week when you go back. Maybe you're just a bit behind schedule?

Do you think it is a credit to the herbs/acupuncture? Have you talked to your acupuncturist at all about this? Mine was so sweet during my horrible, nightmare and just kept reminding me how positive it was to even have sperm meet egg and attempt to do the right thing. Sometimes it was helpful and other times I sat there thinking I would rather not have gotten pregnant at all!!! It is hard to know that if I am ever fortunate to have another pregnancy, I will spend the first several weeks stressing about all the negative possibilities and I will fail to see the beauty and joy of those early weeks! In the end though, I know that it is good to know I'm capable of doing some parts of it right it just took me awhile to get to that point consistently. I think you'll find yourself feeling the same way soon too. 

My progesterone was low, too (12) so I plan to ask about that as well. Earlier today I was thinking about how much longer I can handle the emotional exhaustion of lttc, too. I decided (without talking to my hubs, so it's still up for debate) that by the time I turn 30 (will be 29 in september) I will either be pregnant or will start pursuing adoption. Sounds like we have similar feelings on that as well. Here's to sticky, perfect, in the uterus BFP for us soon!!! :hugs: :hugs: :hugs: 

I'm always here to listen to anything- if you want to cry, be mad, or just chat about this feel free to PM me. I won't pretend to know exactly how you feel, but I totally understand the feelings you are probably having. It sucks. Take care of yourself this week and make sure hubs does the same.


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## NDurham12

Oh my Christi85, 

This is just so heart breaking. I'm so sorry. So very sorry. Wish there was something I could do to help take the pain away. Only time and prayer will do that. So take all the time you need to heal over such a loss. 

:cry:


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## Christi85

Thank you so much girls!! 

Hatethewait, you were one of the girls I had in mind when I was saying that the LTTC forum has had more than its fair share of unfortunate pregnancies lately. I'm very sorry I didn't support you more during your tough times, it just so happened that I got my news at the same time (both the good and the bad ones) and I was just going crazy, one moment thinking that all would be good and the next worrying myself to death. I'm glad to see that you are starting to get over everything now.

I'm not sure I credit the pregnancy to the herbs+acupuncture as I started a few days after my assumed ovulation, but I can't help wondering if it helped with implantation. That, and the laparoscopy I had in May to remove the endometrioma cyst from my right ovary. Who knows what worked this time that hadn't worked before, and who knows what didn't work (which is what's bugging me more). I did tell my acupuncturist and she was of course very sweet. I'm going in for acupuncture tonight - at least it may give me a psychological boost. Yes, I totally hear you about adoption and putting a limit to the TTC time. This can't go on forever...At least we're still young, so there is always the possibility (at least in theory). I'm already 29 and will be 30 next March, which would have been my due date too :cry:

NDurham12, thank you so much for your kind words :flower:


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## slg76

I'm so sorry christi. Sending you a big hug and lots of support :hug:

I'm also nearing the end of my rope with ttc. I think I will give it 3-6 more months and if I'm not pregnant I think I'm ready to move on with my little family that I already have (one dd).


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## Hatethewait85

Christi85 said:


> Thank you so much girls!!
> 
> Hatethewait, you were one of the girls I had in mind when I was saying that the LTTC forum has had more than its fair share of unfortunate pregnancies lately. I'm very sorry I didn't support you more during your tough times, it just so happened that I got my news at the same time (both the good and the bad ones) and I was just going crazy, one moment thinking that all would be good and the next worrying myself to death. I'm glad to see that you are starting to get over everything now.
> 
> I'm not sure I credit the pregnancy to the herbs+acupuncture as I started a few days after my assumed ovulation, but I can't help wondering if it helped with implantation. That, and the laparoscopy I had in May to remove the endometrioma cyst from my right ovary. Who knows what worked this time that hadn't worked before, and who knows what didn't work (which is what's bugging me more). I did tell my acupuncturist and she was of course very sweet. I'm going in for acupuncture tonight - at least it may give me a psychological boost. Yes, I totally hear you about adoption and putting a limit to the TTC time. This can't go on forever...At least we're still young, so there is always the possibility (at least in theory). I'm already 29 and will be 30 next March, which would have been my due date too :cry:
> 
> NDurham12, thank you so much for your kind words :flower:

No need to apologize. You were under your own kind of stress! 

Yeah, it's probably hard to credit the success to herbs/acu really but maybe it is the reason things implanted like you said? :shrug: I was on the herbs for about 6 weeks before I ovulated (same with hubs) and I think that had to be what worked for me. I think if I had been on the herbs longer before I got pregnant, the embryo wouldn't have gotten stuck in my tubes. Who knows. It is frustrating to not know exactly what the magic combination was. And even worse- what if it were a fluke?! :dohh: Although I choose not to believe in the fluke theory. 

As for the lap/cyst removal - do you know if you ovulated from your R side? If so, then maybe that was the reason things worked. They can usually tell from your ultrasound. At my first one, the u/s tech thought I ovulated from my R side (and she was right!). 

So sorry to hear your EDD was on your birthday :hugs: It would've been a great bday present. But look at it this way- now you get to keep that day all to yourself. I have a good feeling it won't be long before you get your next (sticky) BFP!


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## Christi85

Hatethewait85 said:


> Yeah, it's probably hard to credit the success to herbs/acu really but maybe it is the reason things implanted like you said? :shrug: I was on the herbs for about 6 weeks before I ovulated (same with hubs) and I think that had to be what worked for me. I think if I had been on the herbs longer before I got pregnant, the embryo wouldn't have gotten stuck in my tubes. Who knows. It is frustrating to not know exactly what the magic combination was. And even worse- what if it were a fluke?! :dohh: Although I choose not to believe in the fluke theory.
> 
> As for the lap/cyst removal - do you know if you ovulated from your R side? If so, then maybe that was the reason things worked. They can usually tell from your ultrasound. At my first one, the u/s tech thought I ovulated from my R side (and she was right!).
> 
> So sorry to hear your EDD was on your birthday :hugs: It would've been a great bday present. But look at it this way- now you get to keep that day all to yourself. I have a good feeling it won't be long before you get your next (sticky) BFP!

I definitely think the herbs and acupuncture had something to do with it. I just wish I'd waited to start them once I got my new period instead of just a few days after ovulation, because this may not have happened. Of course it could have still happened anyway - nobody knows.

I don't believe much in flukes either. I strongly believe that most couples are able to conceive once they fix whatever problem may be stopping them. The hard part is identifying that problem and, like you said, finding the right combination of things, which is a lot like guesswork.

Hmm...not sure what side I ovulated from the month I got the BFP, but I think it was the right side based on the position of the sac (though I suppose it could have 'traveled' to the other side to implant?? :shrug:). My left ovary was always fine and cyst free, but I always had a hunch the right side was my 'good one' ovulation wise. The reason I suspect the lap might have also had something to do with it was because I'd read (and heard of) a lot of stories where women got pregnant immediately after removing an ovarian cyst etc. I never believed it could happen to me, but I guess it did. 

Yeah, it would have been around my birthday and a few days before hubby's birthday (we're both March). I'm not going to think about it too too much though. 

The past couple of days I've been really sad and completely void of any motivation for anything. It's hard to wait 'till Monday and it doesn't help that I'm still getting pregnancy symptoms and my tummy has grown...All common with blighted ovum, as the body doesn't catch on for up to several weeks, thinking that there is still a pregnancy going on and secreting hormones...Only to think that most likely it's just a sac I'm pregnant with at this point...
I also stumbled on a website called Misdiagnosed Miscarriages, where women tell crazy stories where they've been diagnosed with a blighted ovum, only to end up 'finding' the baby with heartbeat on week 9, week 10 or even beyond. Not sure if this is helping me or not right now, but it helped me understand that not all is lost yet - of course the chance is 90-95% in favor of the blighted ovum diagnosis. All I'm hoping for is a clear answer on Monday. If there is definitely no baby in there and it's nowhere to be seen, then I'd like to see the sac shrinking or deflating or something like that to show me that things are actually going badly. This would make the decision to terminate much easier. If my sac shows growth again and it's still healthy looking, even if there's still no baby found, I may decide to wait it out 'till week 9 at least just to be 100% sure (I'd be 8+2 on Monday based on last period). And that won't be pretty. Or easy :cry:

I too hope for sticky beans for all of us, soon! If mine is 100% confirmed as a failed pregnancy though, I'll probably have to wait 3 cycles or so to start TTCing again. Which, at this point, makes me happy, as I really need a mental break from all this.


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## NDurham12

Hey Christi85,
Any hope is good hope. Like my last cycle I knew there was little chance that we conceived as we only did it once on o day. But that little possibility really got me through my tww. So here's to hope!

And you....look at how far you've come. Low amh and having a lap. I'm in the same situation and for me it's so depressing. I too am taking a break because it's becoming to much. During this time I'm doing a cleanse and the 90 day egg health plan. So while I'm not actively going to ttc I won't prevent either. ... well at least after the cleanse. 
Something maybe to think about as you Let your body heal.


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## Mikihob

Christi I totally hear your lack of motivation. I am trying to build a home business, it's up now, but adding products and maintenance on it, I haven't done much the last couple of weeks. I just can't seem to shake this lack of motivation/sadness/worry...etc. 

I hope you are doing ok. I agree, if the sac is still growing and looking healthy I would wait just to be sure. Stranger things have happened. I hope it's a baby, I really do. We are here with you through it all, if it's bad news. We are here. :hugs: :hugs: :hugs: :hugs: :hugs:


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## Hatethewait85

I think it's a good idea to wait until 9 weeks if things keep growing just for your peace of mind if nothing else. I read a lot of hopeful stories about 'they thought it was ectopic but I just kept waiting and then they found it in my uterus!' too. I hope you get to be on the winning side of those stories though. If it is a BO, will you have to wait 3 cycles because of the D&C? 

I would ask when you go in next week if they can tell what side you ovulated from. I think it would be interesting to know! I have never had a 'hunch' about which side is better but now, I'm really hoping it's my left side :haha: 

I can understand the sadness and lack of motivation, too. Make sure to take some time this weekend to spoil yourself and relax. You can always go out and buy a new car like we did- it was definitely a good distraction! :haha:


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## slg76

I went through a similar situation last year. The end result was a D&E when I was 9 1/2 weeks along but the baby never developed past 6 weeks. I had several ultrasounds to be very sure of the diagnosis but after 7 1/2 weeks there wasn't really any doubt. The sac started to be less round and started to shrink. I waited a few weeks to mc naturally but my body never figured it out. 

I hope that you have a different outcome! I think you will know what to do if/when the time comes. I'm so sorry that you have to go through all this waiting and uncertainty. It is an awful and helpless feeling. :flow:


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## Christi85

Thank you all so much for your support! :hugs:

NDurham12 - I may want to know more about this 90 day egg health plan. If it is confirmed to be a blighted ovum, it is usually due to something going wrong with the chromosomes blending. I can't get it out of my head that it may have been a bad egg of mine that caused the problem (since we know hubby's sperm was good, and actually his morphology was in the 'excellent' range), though there's no point blaming myself. But if I end up losing this pregnancy, I definitely want to have the healthiest eggs possible next time around!!
Best of luck to you with your plan - sounds like a great idea! 

Mikihob - I too am self employed and the irony is that July has been super busy for me with orders. Normally I'd be 'flying' to prepare them all, but all I can do right now is drag my feet and do little bits of work every day. I've notified my customers that there may be delays due to it being a very busy season and most are understanding, which is amazing. Of course I'm not telling them the real reason things are taking longer. Hubby has decided he's coming with me on Monday (two sets of eyes are better than one and I'm feeling very vulnerable, while he's more level headed and ready to 'fight' if need be). If things are still growing, we will most likely want more testing done. I'm thinking I may even seek out a different facility, maybe one with high def u/s machines just to get a second opinion. Again, for peace of mind.

Hatethewait - You very clearly made the right choice, especially since you ended up having a ruptured tube, so you know it was ectopic. And with ectopic being a potentially life threatening condition, I would be much more cautious. I think you made your decision based on what was best for you, and at least your diagnosis turned out to be right, which is good news in a sh**ty situation. 

Yes, I think that's what most doctors advise after a D&C or miscarriage: waiting 2-3 cycles before TTCing again. Not sure why exactly, but I would think to give the body plenty of time to heal and the lining time to build up again and be healthy. More as a safety measure, I guess. I hear that a lot of women are extra fertile after a D&C, but not everyone's body is immediately ready for a new pregnancy, so many of those end up failing again. So I think I'd rather play it safe - plus I do need a break.

Haha, I wish we could buy a car too, but we'll probably have to make do with smaller treats :winkwink:

sIg - these situations suck. I'm sorry you had to go through this, but I'm glad you didn't make hasty decisions and you knew your baby had died before you terminated the pregnancy. I've heard of women who have been told the baby had stopped growing and they were taken in for a D&C the same day, after just one u/s. Probably nothing would have changed, but strange things do happen sometimes, and it's a big shame to at least not confirm the diagnosis with additional testing and not repeat the u/s at least once for peace of mind and clarity. I'm really not feeling I will have a different outcome, so I would actually love to see signs that the sac is shrinking or deflating, as this would be a very strong confirmation of the diagnosis and would leave almost no doubt. Of course I can still hope for a miracle, so we'll see what happens. Not too long now...


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## slg76

christi,
Don't let the Dr. push you into anything. Even if it's not a viable pregnancy it won't hurt anything to leave things alone for a few weeks if that is what will make you feel the best (or the least bad?). You don't even have to have a D&C at all. Your body will eventually take care of it on its own if need be. 

I read your comment above about worrying if you had a bad egg. Not sure if this helps but I do have a PhD in Genetics/Microbiology so...
Coming from somebody who knows genetics....there is no real reason to think that you had a "bad" egg. We all make good and bad eggs and sperm. Just because your husband's sperm had good morphology doesn't mean that every single sperm is good genetically. And, even if you had a perfect egg and a perfect sperm, the process of joining the two is extremely complicated and often times something just doesn't go quite right. This is why healthy couples have miscarriages all the time. 

Coming from me, the woman who can't conceive another child and had a miscarriage.....Sometimes I feel like I had a bad egg. There are days where my logical mind just can't convince my heart otherwise :shrug: Last month I started taking DHEA in hopes of improving egg quality. In some cases these supplements don't change the eggs per say, but they improve the environment in the ovary so the egg is more protected once it's released. 

Hang in there. I know time must be moving so slowly for you right now.


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## Christi85

Thank you slg :hugs::hugs:
I know it's irrational thinking, but you can't help it sometimes.

Yes, time is moving very slowly, but on the other hand I'm not sure I want to go back if it's going to be bad news again. Don't know if that makes sense...

The Dr mentioned both the surgical route and the medication route if a blighted ovum is confirmed, so I think he'd leave it up to me. He didn't talk about letting it happen naturally, though I'm sure it's always an option and if I wanted to go down that route, he wouldn't really push me not to do it. For me, as long as the diagnosis is confirmed 100%, I think the surgical route makes the most sense. It's the quickest and least painful way and my body can return to normal sooner. I can't quite imagine taking medication to induce a miscarriage as I'm really frightened of the experience. As for natural miscarriage, this is probably the 'gentlest' option, but knowing it could take weeks to start and up to several weeks to clear entirely, and that I may end up needing a D&C anyway if not everything is out, makes it feel nerve wracking. Btw, the same thing can happen with the medicated miscarriage if not everything gets expelled, so I'm thinking I might as well go for the D&C from the start and get it over with. We'll also see what the doctor says.


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## NDurham12

Hey there. So this is the plan that I'm following.https://natural-fertility-info.com/increase-egg-health

I didn't do any of their supplements as the price is just too freaking high. Which is a pet peeve of mine. Similar to weddings, vendors just markup prices because they can play on the emotions of women. Especially with fertility. .. gets me so upset. The article is pretty good though and coincides with a book I'm reading about eastern medicine approach to fertility. 

My ff chart shows everything I'm taking, but in summary I added dhea, l-arginine, royal jelly, and coq10 (+ lipoic acid for better absorb) . 

The royal jelly is funny as it makes my pee smell like honey. Hehe. Other than that I don't feel any different. 

Since I'm on the cleanse I'm not actively trying this cycle. So I haven't taken the evening primrose oil pills I usually take starting cd1. Well today I had tons of ewcm! Very exciting.


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## Hatethewait85

Christi85 said:


> Hatethewait - You very clearly made the right choice, especially since you ended up having a ruptured tube, so you know it was ectopic. And with ectopic being a potentially life threatening condition, I would be much more cautious. I think you made your decision based on what was best for you, and at least your diagnosis turned out to be right, which is good news in a sh**ty situation.

Yes, I don't doubt my decision now (although it's easy to look back and say I made the right choice, even though in the end it didn't matter- still needed surgery none the less). But those stories sure get ya thinking!! Like slg said, the risk is pretty small to wait until you're sure and confident in your decision. Although, I think there is some infection risk to waiting too long (although don't quote me on that). 

I think you are right regarding lining after a D&C. Good to give it time to recover. 

Is your appointment tomorrow? I will be thinking of you! I understand not wanting to go back to hear bad news (but hopefully there's great news!!). Ignorance is bliss sometimes. 

As for the discussion on egg quailty- my fs suspects that's my problem (bad eggs) because everything else checks out on paper just fine but I made so few blastocysts out of my many eggs retrieved with IVF. Anyway, I started taking coq10 (ubiquinol) about 6 weeks before I ended up getting pregnant. Not sure if that contributed at all but there is some data to support it improving egg quality. I plan to stick with it once I'm done with my detox course later this week. Its a well tolerated supplement and very few potential risks. 

Thanks for the link NDurham- I will definitely check it out, too!


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## slg76

Hatethewait. Wow! I hope I have the same response to ubiquinol. I've been taking that and DHEA for 6 weeks now. I've had BIG time hormonal symptoms so it must be doing something.


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## Christi85

Hello ladies!

Had my doctor appointment this morning and unfortunately, the ultrasound confirmed the bad news. The sac looked the same as last week, and no sign of an embryo in there, so we are pretty confident it's a blighted ovum. At this point, neither hubby nor I felt it made any sense waiting longer and doing any more tests. If the sac had grown more or something was seen in it (even without a heartbeat), it would have been different, but now it looked very clear to us. Oddly enough, I feel relieved not to have to wait longer. I cried a lot over the past week, so I'm ready to put it behind me and move on.

My doctor laid out my options (D&C, waiting for natural miscarriage or medicated miscarriage), of which I only 'liked' the D&C as it will allow for the fastest healing and least hassle and pain. So he referred me to a surgery clinic, as doing it in the hospital would have been unnecessarily complicated and much more expensive. 
I spoke with the nurse over the phone and they will probably have me go in on Friday (I'd be 8+6 at that point) to do the procedure - I'm just waiting for her to call back and confirm the time of the appointment. She said no general anesthesia, just IV sedation, which I also liked. I just hope I don't miscarry spontaneously until Friday...I was secretly hoping for an earlier appointment, but Friday was the earliest they had.

The doc actually said we could start TTCing again as soon as I got my first period after the D&C, but I think I will want to wait a couple months. Better get my body ready first and boost my chances for a successful outcome whenever a pregnancy does come again. I did ask him about giving me progesterone supplementation to start taking after ovulation once we start TTCing again (since I know I have an issue with low progesterone) and he said it wouldn't hurt to do that. He also said I shouldn't be discouraged and that he's sure I'll get pregnant again.

NDurham, thank you for the info on the herbs and supplements. That fertility cleansing sounds good. I'll make sure to ask my acupuncturist about her recommendations too, though I'm thinking I may not do anything between the D&C and getting my period - just let the body rest - and then start any cleansing treatments etc. after I get my first period post D&C.


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## Hatethewait85

:hugs: :hugs: :hugs: :hugs:

This sucks. I am so sorry you are going through this. I hope that Friday comes quick so you can move past things soon. 

I'm glad your doc will give you the progesterone and that he's optimistic you'll be pregnant again!

July has been a TERRIBLE month for us LTTTC-ers. August has got to be better. 

Big ((HUGS)). I'm thinking of you and your hubs this week.


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## Hatethewait85

slg76 said:


> Hatethewait. Wow! I hope I have the same response to ubiquinol. I've been taking that and DHEA for 6 weeks now. I've had BIG time hormonal symptoms so it must be doing something.


Yes! I hope you do too!!!

To be fair, in addition to the ubiquinol I was taking chinese herbs (a custom herb blend from my acupuncturist), this stasis teapills (from my acupunccturist), magnesium supplement, and prenatal + DHA. So who knows what did the trick as I started all (except prenatal + DHA) at the same time. My husband also started acupuncture at that time, too. Haha. It's impossible to know....


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## Christi85

Thank you so much :hugs:

Yes, July was a horrible month! Here's to a better August!

Well, this is a new OB/GYN as I walked away from my RE who also served as my OB/GYN for a while. I have to say, I do like that his attitude is more laid back. I'm optimistic too that since my body knows how to get pregnant now, it will repeat it some time soon (hopefully with a viable pregnancy this time). And I read some stats saying that 80-85% of women with a blighted ovum go on to have a successful next pregnancy, as well as that, even women with 3-4 miscarriages still have a 60-70% chance of a successful pregnancy. So that made me feel better. At the same time I'm also realistic, so I think I may give it 'till the end of 2015 or so. If no baby is with us or on the way by then (and I mean with a viable pregnancy that we know is going to stick), then we'll seriously look into adoption. Until then, we'll keep on trying our best and hope for better luck next time. Right now though, I'm thinking I'll wait 2 or even 3 cycles. I want to take time to heal and prepare my body better. And most importantly, take a much needed mental break from all the TTC madness.

Re the ubiquinol, I've heard good stuff too. Not just that it improves the quality of eggs, but that there have also been a couple studies showing that ovarian cells were 'regenerated' which is great potential news for all of us with AMH concerns. I had linked to an article too some time ago that detailed the findings of that study on CoQ10. I'd been taking the ubiquinon form the month we conceived, but I think I'll switch to ubiquinol, as I hear it's easier for the body to absorb.


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## slg76

I'm sorry to hear your news but relieved for you that you can move on. I hope you heal quickly and feel ready to move on soon <3


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## Mikihob

Hatethewait85 said:


> :hugs: :hugs: :hugs: :hugs:
> 
> This sucks. I am so sorry you are going through this. I hope that Friday comes quick so you can move past things soon.
> 
> I'm glad your doc will give you the progesterone and that he's optimistic you'll be pregnant again!
> 
> July has been a TERRIBLE month for us LTTTC-ers. August has got to be better.
> 
> Big ((HUGS)). I'm thinking of you and your hubs this week.

You are definitely right July is stupid for TTC'ers. You and Christi had a terrible, terrible month and are now trying to move past them. I am on a IUI thread and all 8-10 of us who did an IUI in July ALL got BFN's. I have never seen so many BFN's in one thread before. 

We all agree July is so dumb August HAS to be better. 

Hatethewait and Chrisit I am so sorry for what you two have had to endure. Christi I am glad that you got some news that made you feel better, even though it was terrible, heartbreaking news. I love your positive outlook and your drive to move forward. You two give me strength in my darkest hours. I am hoping and praying that you too can stay strong, move forward and get your BFP's!! :hugs: :hugs:


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## Christi85

I know, July was just horrible! Not just for HtW and me, but for other ladies as well in the LTTC forum who suffered miscarriages etc.
With such a horrible month, I'm not surprised you all got BFNs Mikihob. But hopefully August will bring you much better news :flower:

My D&C is now confirmed for Friday, which I'm happy about. Not too long until all this is behind me. I try to be optimistic and stay strong, but I have my moments when I just break down and cry and feel just horrible about this whole thing, sometimes even blaming myself and my body. There's no explanation why things like that happen and they shouldn't be happening. I so wish getting a BFP could mean having a baby 100% of the time!!! 
My hubby is also very sad, which pains me. Sometimes I even think he took it worse than I did. I knew from the moment we saw that empty sac at 7w 2d that this pregnancy was doomed, but he kept hoping something would change. When the bad news was confirmed at 8w 2d, he was even more devastated.

Thank you everyone for your support! It means a lot! :hugs:


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## Mikihob

Christi It's always harder when you get your hopes up. In this journey getting our hopes up helps keep us going and moving forward and stopping us from giving up. After you saw the empty sac you knew the chances of something being there was small, but DH just hoped against hope that they would find a heartbeat the next u/s. That makes it harder. 

It's funny (not really but you know what I mean) that sometimes it seems our DH's take this news harder than we do. Maybe it's because we have talked about it before with other women who have dealt with it or because we have researched it or what have you. But they (most) don't know these things and get their hopes up and then get crushed. I am glad that you too can support each other and be there for one another. Especially now you two will need each other. 

I am glad that we can be here to support you. I will be thinking of you and praying for you Friday. :hugs: :hugs:


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## Hatethewait85

Mikihob said:


> Thanks chica. :hugs: to you too!!! I hope August brings you the happiest of news! Sending all the sticky vibes your way!


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## Hatethewait85

Christi85 said:


> I know, July was just horrible! Not just for HtW and me, but for other ladies as well in the LTTC forum who suffered miscarriages etc.
> With such a horrible month, I'm not surprised you all got BFNs Mikihob. But hopefully August will bring you much better news :flower:
> 
> My D&C is now confirmed for Friday, which I'm happy about. Not too long until all this is behind me. I try to be optimistic and stay strong, but I have my moments when I just break down and cry and feel just horrible about this whole thing, sometimes even blaming myself and my body. There's no explanation why things like that happen and they shouldn't be happening. I so wish getting a BFP could mean having a baby 100% of the time!!!
> My hubby is also very sad, which pains me. Sometimes I even think he took it worse than I did. I knew from the moment we saw that empty sac at 7w 2d that this pregnancy was doomed, but he kept hoping something would change. When the bad news was confirmed at 8w 2d, he was even more devastated.
> 
> Thank you everyone for your support! It means a lot! :hugs:

Friday will be here before you know it. It's ok to break down and cry when you need to. This is a huge loss and it sucks. The thing that upsets me the most is there really is NO reason for this nonsense. I still well up with tears and my surgery was nearly 3 weeks ago! 

I'm sorry about your hubs too. I think most men take it pretty hard and are usually surprised when things head south- they just don't understand this stuff the way we do and they don't spend hours a day researching everything. To them a BFP = a take home baby 100% of the time... until it doesn't for them. Anyway, hugs to you and your hubby. Hope you both find some ways to spoil yourselves this weekend. You certainly deserve some pampering!


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## slg76

My hubby took our mc harder than I did. He is the more emotional of us. We cried together and had a little memorial for our baby. I hope you find what it is you need to get through this and I hope you and hubby can support each other :flow:


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## Christi85

Thank you so much girls! :flower:
I ended up having my D&C yesterday (Friday) and all went well. I was under for maybe just 20 minutes and have no memory of it all. They gave me one last ultrasound before the procedure and the sac measured around 31mm, which would have put me around 8.5 weeks along (based on last period, I would have been 9 weeks) but of course absolutely nothing inside. The doctor said that, when the sac is over 25mm and still appears empty, they are able to confidently make the diagnosis of a blighted ovum. Apparently, up until a couple years ago, the cut-off point was 18-20mm, but they have increased the threshold to 25mm. So since mine was a good bit over 25mm and still empty, it made me feel better and more confident in that I wasn't making a mistake and that there wouldn't have been a baby in there. That was my biggest struggle - deciding whether I had to wait longer just in case, but at the end of the day, I don't think anything would have changed after 5 ultrasounds across 2 weeks (the first 3 at my doctor's office first time we realized we were dealing with a blighted ovum on different machines - both vaginal and abdominal) all with the same findings. 

Physically I'm ok. I've only had light bleeding which seems to have subsided for now, but they've warned me that it can be on and off for up to a few weeks. Then I should be getting my first period 4-6 weeks from the procedure. I only have minor cramping which I'm handling with Tylenol Extra and otherwise I feel fine. I'm not allowed any strenuous activity, swimming, baths or intercourse for a week and I'll be seeing my doc for a follow-up in 2 weeks, but otherwise I'm pretty close to normal. The hardest part was getting over those first few hours after waking up from sedation, in which I felt very groggy and drowsy. Emotionally I've felt ok after the procedure, but I won't be surprised if I get occasional waves of sadness. I really want to put all this behind me though and get my body ready for when we start TTC again after 2-3 months.


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## Mikihob

Christi I am glad the procedure went well and that the final ultrasound was able to confirm that there wasn't a baby so you didn't have to wonder forever if you made the right choice. I can only imagine what you must be going through and completely agree that waves of sadness will come. As long as you and DH can hold onto each other and be there for one another you should be able to move forward. I hope that your period starts sooner rather than later and you can start all the herbs and supplements again to get your body ready to TTC. Thinking about you and wishing you well! :hugs:


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## Christi85

Thank you so much :hugs:


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## slg76

Glad that all went well. Take good care of yourself.


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## Hatethewait85

:hugs: I've been thinking about you Christi. I'm so glad they offered you one last scan before the D&C. I'm sure it helped you to feel at peace with the decision you were making. I hope your recovery is smooth and the next 2-3 months fly by.


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## Christi85

Thank you so much, everyone! :flower:

The weekend was a little rougher than I expected, but still not too bad in retrospect. Saturday I had some light cramping and very light brown bleeding, but it got worse later in the day. I woke up in the middle of the night Saturday with bad period-like cramping, although there was still no bleeding. I'd been taking Tylenol Extra every 6-8 hours and used a heating pad, both of which seemed to help some, though not 100%. Cramping continued on and off through Sunday, sometimes quite intense, and then I started period-like bleeding and passed a few small-ish clots. That seemed to ease the cramping and I've been feeling much better since. I'm still bleeding like a light period, but at least it's manageable and I have no cramping. Hope it continues like this from now on. The worst is supposed to be over within a week of the procedure and today is day 3, so getting there...:thumbup:


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## Hatethewait85

:hugs: Sorry you had such a rough weekend. I too found that my bleeding worsened a day or two after my surgery but then tapered off. I bled/spotted for 8 days and haven't had any spotting since. I'm glad to hear things are slowing down too for you. Hope you are able to relax this week and recover from things.


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## Christi85

Sorry I disappeared again. Turns out, my first recovery week wasn't as rosy as I was hoping for.

First off, as I said, I had some heavier bleeding on Sunday night which got better by Monday morning, only to come back with a vengeance on Monday afternoon/evening. This was a bit of a surprise after going the first 2 days post op with just minimal pain and spotting/very light bleeding. In addition to that, I started getting pretty bad cramps, though nothing that couldn't pass with 2 Tylenol Extra. The bleeding has continued the same pretty much since then (like a moderate period with occasional jelly-like clotting - sorry for TMI!), although I did notice that it has started to get a bit darker, which I take as a good sign. I also had horrible cramping for 3-4 hours on Tuesday afternoon, which wouldn't go away with pain killers, heating pads or lying down. It would be very intense and at its worst, it would come and go every 5 minutes or so, much like labor contractions (though I can't say it was like that, since I've no experience with labor contractions, lol). The worst part lasted about 2 hours, though the whole experience with the intense cramping may have been around 4 hours, and then it slowly subsided over several hours, only to leave a 'tender' feeling by Tuesday night. Wednesday afternoon again I had some bad cramping, but it lasted much less and was much less intense than Tuesday. I switched to Advil to help with the inflammation and it did wonders for the pain, though I only took it for a day or so and then switched back to Tylenol, as Advil made me bleed somewhat more :wacko:

I'm happy to report that I've had no severe pain for almost 48 hours now and that most of the day I'm completely pain free (except for an occasional 'bloated'/discomfort feeling down there), so I'm starting to hope that the worst is behind me pain-wise. Bleeding wise, not so much. As I said, it's still like a moderate period and I'm still going through 3-4 pads a day which has been quite frustrating. On Wednesday morning I rang the nurse at the clinic where I had my D&C and spoke to her for a good 10 minutes, mainly as I was terrified about the pain I had experienced the day before. Since I had no fever, signs of infection or excessive bleeding and the pain had subsided, she didn't seem too concerned. She just told me I probably over-exerted my body too soon and it complained (at its worst, I could even feel my cramping reflect on my legs, lower back etc.). So her advice was to rest as much as possible, take it very easy, and take pain meds and use a heating pad as needed. Luckily, the pain has gotten better. Last night I started freaking out about the bleeding not getting less (or turning to brown), so I rang the clinic again this morning and spoke to the nurse again. The doctor who did my procedure a week ago is in on Fridays, so she offered to have me go in to get checked for my peace of mind. So I went in this morning, the doc gave me an internal ultrasound and it all looked good. She actually saw some of my blood when removing the wand (sorry for TMI again) and she said it's darker red, so it's slowly getting to be old blood, meaning I'm healing fine. The uterus was empty, no retained tissue (phew!:thumbup:) and based on what she was able to see lining-wise, she didn't think I'd be bleeding for any more than 1-2 more weeks max. She said they sometimes do an aspiration procedure to relieve bleeding from any remaining blood, but since I didn't seem to have all that much in there and all looked normal, her advice to me was to just wait it out. She also said, based on my lining which is starting to build up again, my pregnancy hormones should be close to dropping completely now and that I should be starting a new cycle soon. 

I have a follow up with my regular OB/GYN a week from today, so I'm also going to see what he says and I will ask to have some blood drawn to check my hormone levels. The clinic doc also asked me what my future pregnancy plans were and I told her I wanted to wait 2-3 cycles before starting TTCing again, and she seemed to think that was perfect, as it would allow my body enough time to heal completely. So, hoping for better days from now on!!! :thumbup:
Have a great weekend everyone!! :hugs:


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## Mikihob

Christi I am sorry you had to deal with such terrible pain. This won't be a consolation or anything, but when I was a teen and had my terrible PCOS periods that's exactly what it was like. I would always miss 3-5 days of school at the start due to the terrible cramping. I would bleed for 3-4 weeks and use I don't even know how many pads each day. 

I can't imagine that being any harder- but it sure sounds like it was much harder for you. I wish that you never had to go through this and suffer so much. It's great that your body is healing well and that you are heading in the right direction. I am happy your doc is happy with your decision to wait 2-3 cycles to start. I am very glad you have doctors that take such good care of you. I hope the bleeding does die down and be completely gone within 1 week (it's better than 2 :winkwink: ). I am thinking of you and wishing you well. :hugs:


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## Hatethewait85

:hugs: Sorry to hear things got worse. But I am glad your doc was able to get you in and reassure you. Hope your weekend was pain free and you are nearing the end of the bleeding. :hugs:


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## Christi85

Thanks ladies. Luckily I've been almost completely pain free for a few days now, so I hope the pain is now behind me :thumbup:
The bleeding isn't showing any signs of stopping though, it's still like a light-to-moderate period, some days lighter and some days a little heavier, although it is now darker red for the most part and I haven't been passing as many clots in the past 3 days.
My HCG levels are still high though :cry: At least high enough to be detected by a HPT. I took my first HPT post D&C this morning and it came back a clear positive. The pregnancy line was fainter than the test line, but it wasn't faint as such, if that makes sense. Somehow I thought HCG levels dropped very quickly - within days - of a D&C. Maybe not always. I may take another HPT in 2-3 days just to check again. If the pregnancy line is fainter next time, at least that will be a good sign.

I'm seeing my regular OB/GYN on Friday. He'll give me another u/s and I think I'll ask for a beta test as well. I'm concerned that there may be some missed retained tissue in there which is prolonging the bleeding and isn't allowing the HCG to drop completely, but on the other hand, wouldn't that show on u/s? The u/s I had on Friday at the clinic where I had my D&C showed that everything looked good and as it should, and the nurse told me that I also had an u/s done right after the D&C to make sure the uterus was empty (of course I was still under sedation, so I have no memory of that one), and that one looked good too. So I'm a little confused by it all. Maybe I'm just a worry wart...

I've also been wanting to book a trip to my home country sometime in late September/early October and I don't dare do anything yet, which is frustrating. I usually go once a year, but since I fell pregnant this summer I wasn't planning on taking such a long trip. Now that we lost the pregnancy I thought at least I could take the trip - definitely a break I need and something that would make me feel better. But I wanted to make sure I was on track to good healing before I went on to book anything, and now I'm very hesitant, since I don't feel like my healing is on a steady path as of yet. So I've been waiting and hoping. Very frustrating! :wacko:


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## Mikihob

I am sorry that you still need to worry. I would be doing the same thing you are, I am a worrier by nature. I would assume that if the u/s showed everything was clear it should be. If your HCG doesn't start going down soon I would be they need to double check the double check. 

I think a trip sounds wonderful. It is a great way for you to relax and take your mind of things. That sounds like a wonderful idea. :hugs:


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## Hatethewait85

I'm a worrier too (you heard me stressing even after getting the mtx!!) so I totally get where you are coming from. I think it's a good idea to repeat the hpt before your appointment to see how it looks. I had the same plan as you before my post-op f/u, too - fortunately my hpt was negative then. 

Don't know if you saw in my journal, but 3chords hcg is down to 6 but she's still getting decent lines on her hpts- hopefully your level is low even though you're getting a good line on those tests. 

What has your acupuncturist said about the bleeding? I'm pretty sure they have certain points they can help start/stop bleeding. 

Hopefully you get some reassurance on Friday so you feel able to make your appointment to visit family soon. That must be so hard to be so far away. I think a trip is more than deserved after the past couple of months.


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## Christi85

Wow, an hcg of 6 (practically negative, since below 5 is negative) and HPTs still show? :wacko: I hope I'm the same. 

I will take another HPT either tomorrow or Friday morning before my doc appointment. I do feel though that I may be finally taking a turn towards a more steady recovery. The bleeding is still there but it's now mostly brown since yesterday and lighter in quantity (I suppose you could call it spotting), which makes me hopeful that it may be gone completely in a few days. And I've had no pain whatsoever in days - I think Friday last week may have been the last time I took a painkiller, so...:thumbup: I also feel hopeful that my hcG is indeed going down, as I'm experiencing something very weird (if it wasn't a crappy situation, you could even say it's funny): I think I'm having reverse symptoms. Meaning, I've been having symptoms that I had through my short pregnancy in reverse order. For example, I was having nausea in the last 2 weeks before I had the D&C and that was the first symptom to go away within 2 days of the procedure. Then a couple days ago my boobs felt sore and tender, which I had at about 5 weeks along and then it eased off. Same with some weird itching that I had only had for a couple days after I got my BFP. And yesterday, I had crazy hot flashes, which I had only experienced on the day of my BFP and the day before that. They had gone away after that. So I've been wondering if I've been getting the same symptoms I'd been getting back then when the hcG reaches similar levels in my system, only then it was going up and now it's going down. Crazy huh? :wacko::wacko:

I also have no idea when to expect AF and that makes me a little worried about my trip. I've read the first AF can be anything from super light to super heavy/clotty and possibly very crampy too, so I've been hoping that I'm still here when the first one comes, so that I don't have to worry about that during my trip (where I usually start to see friends and family immediately and do things). But I've read very conflicting accounts on when AF is supposed to come. Some people will say that the hcG needs to drop to <5 for a new cycle to start, so it's going to be about 4 weeks from the time hcG drops to negative. Others say that if it's anything under 30 you can still get AF as normal. Then some articles I found said that your hcG drops to negative when all the bleeding stops, so AF should be expected after about 3 weeks, but I've also read womens' experiences who only stayed bleeding-free for a week or two and then got their first AF, more or less 4 weeks from their D&C/miscarriage. Very confusing :wacko:

HtW, I haven't been to my acupuncturist since before my D&C. I wanted to take that week and the week after off to regroup, and my intention was to go back this week. Since my recovery went a bit slower than I had anticipated, I decided to ditch this week as well, but I should be going back next week. Actually, I think I'd rather get all the remaining blood out now and not 'make' it stop, especially since the doc last Friday said that there wasn't all that much left. If it doesn't get out now, it will get out with my first AF, and I'd rather have a lighter than a heavier AF and less chances of scar tissue forming. Other than that, I had asked my acupuncturist about a fertility cleansing after we found out the pregnancy wasn't viable, and she had said she had something to give me, but I haven't seen her since. And I think that I should wait until I get an AF before I take anything again herb-wise. I may even skip this first cycle post D&C since the nurses have all told me that it may be weird and that I may not even ovulate, and start things again after the second AF which should be closer to normal. 

Yes, I am looking forward to that trip! I can't wait to be able to book! Hopefully not too long now...:thumbup:


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## Hatethewait85

I'm glad things seem to be settling down finally. So strange that your symptoms are disappearing in reverse! But I suppose that makes sense. I didn't really get many symptoms even though my hcg got up over 10000 so I'm no help there. 

I do think there is no way to prepare for your first AF like you say. I was expecting mine at least a week later than it came, but my body has bounced back better than it was before this pregnancy. I just hope it 'fixed' whatever is wrong with me so that this uphill journey is much quicker once I'm back in the game. I hope yours comes before you head on your trip. It will be much easier to handle at home. I was pretty emotional on day 1 of mine which I wasn't expecting either. 

I don't blame you for not wanting to force the bleeding to stop. I think that acupuncture doesn't stop it before it's complete, just hurries up the process maybe? I don't really know. :shrug: I definitely credit acupuncture to helping me heal and recover and feel grounded again so I really recommend it once you're feeling up to it again. I totally understand waiting to take any supplements, though. 

Best of luck on Friday. Hoping everything checks out at your appointment. Update us on when you can.


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## Christi85

I'll definitely update after my doc appointment. 
Took another HPT this morning. It gave me a faint positive, so I was happy about that (the faint, not the positive :winkwink:) and I hope this means the HcG is going down. Of course it wasn't the best sample I could have had, as I woke up in the middle of the night to go to the bathroom, so I took this test in the morning after maybe 3.5 hours of the last bathroom trip (though I had nothing to drink in between). I'm just wondering if the line came out faint because the sample was more diluted than say, after a full night of not using the bathroom (which was what my Monday sample was). Still, I'm hopeful that it's a confirmation that my hcG is going down as it should (and hopefully drop to negative within a few days from now).
We'll see what the doc says tomorrow, and I'll probably ask to have blood drawn to check my exact HcG levels, though this means I'll probably have to repeat the draw next week for comparison :wacko:
I'm sick of seeing doctors, I can tell you that :nope:


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## Mikihob

I hope that you start seeing negative tests so you can avoid the blood draw. I hope the appointment goes well and you can move forward with your supplements and TTC in a couple of months. I hate getting my blood drawn. Especially over and over again.


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## Christi85

Mikihob said:


> I hope that you start seeing negative tests so you can avoid the blood draw. I hope the appointment goes well and you can move forward with your supplements and TTC in a couple of months. I hate getting my blood drawn. Especially over and over again.

I hope so too. Normally I don't care about having blood drawn as much, but since I've been bleeding for several days now post D&C, I'm a little concerned about my iron levels, and the blood draws aren't going to help. I'm still taking my prenatal vitamins that have a lot of iron though, so hopefully that will help my iron levels stay at a decent level.


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## Christi85

Girls, I just need to vent. Just checked my email and my mother in law emailed hubby and I (and hubby's sister, who doesn't know about our recent ordeal) the news about a family friend's grandson who was born yesterday. The baby's dad is a childhood friend of my husband's who now lives in another state and my MIL is good friends with his parents. While we're definitely happy and thrilled for them all, I'm very pissed at my MIL. She knows our whole recent ordeal (and very few people know about it), she knows I'm still recovering from the D&C, I hope she understands how cr**py I still feel at times (it's still very recent after all), and yet she sends an email titled 'Exciting news from the (insert family name)!!!' together with a picture of the newborn and forwarding all the info the baby's grandma sent. Of course we want to know about it, of course we're happy for the couple and the whole family, but would it hurt to take it down a notch and just keep it more informational rather than this excited/celebratory? I guess what got to me was her overly excited tone when I'm struggling to get over what happened to us. I'm not the kind of person who shows their grief to other people (except hubby), so if you talked to me right now you probably wouldn't notice a big difference to how I am normally, but I would think that as a woman who is close to us and KNOWS all that happened, she would be able to understand that I'm still hurting inside, even if I don't want to burden other people with my pain?? :nope: It felt like a punch in the stomach to me. Maybe I'm over- sensitive, but what hurt the most was not the news (which we were expecting any day, anyway), but rather that it was delivered in a very inconsiderate way (in my opinion) from someone close to us who knows about our grief. Right now I'm VERY mad at her! :growlmad:Venting over! :growlmad:


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## Mikihob

I am the same way Chrisit. I can be very mad or upset or sad and no one would be able to notice (except DH). I agree that it was very inconsiderate of her to email in that way. She should have sent the excited email to your SIL and then sent an informational one with an attachment of all the extra stuff. That way, you could view it when you were ready. I think she wasn't thinking about your feelings and only thinking about how excited she was. Some people "get over" things quicker and expect everyone else to too. I am sorry that she did that to you. I would be mad too. :hugs:


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## Christi85

Mikihob said:


> I am the same way Chrisit. I can be very mad or upset or sad and no one would be able to notice (except DH). I agree that it was very inconsiderate of her to email in that way. She should have sent the excited email to your SIL and then sent an informational one with an attachment of all the extra stuff. That way, you could view it when you were ready. I think she wasn't thinking about your feelings and only thinking about how excited she was. Some people "get over" things quicker and expect everyone else to too. I am sorry that she did that to you. I would be mad too. :hugs:

You are right. Unfortunately she can be like that. She doesn't quite think and goes with the first thing she feels spontaneously, without 'filtering'. She's hurt me like that several times. 

What puzzles me with that woman is that she knows about pain. She's not someone who has lived her life sheltered from pain, so you would think that would have made her much more considerate to other people's pain. Her dad left them for another woman when she was a teenager and I know that hurt her a lot. Then she got married when she was a young adult right after college and her husband ended up dying of a heart attack a year into their marriage (luckily no kids from that marriage), so she became a widow at the age of just 23-24. And later on, when she met and married my FIL (hubby's dad), they were never quite right together, so they had a pretty love-less and passion-less marriage (and 2 kids to complete the picture :wacko:) for about 30 years, until my FIL rekindled a college romance and asked her for a divorce to be able to be with and marry his college sweetheart. In a way repeating what she had experienced with her own father years earlier. So this woman has had a pretty miserable personal/family life (despite the happiness of having 2 children and a successful career) and she's sure no stranger to pain. Which is why I don't get it when she shows such lack of consideration to other people's emotions :nope::nope:


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## SarahLou372

Hi ladies can I join in please? :hi:

I don't want to barge in on your conversation


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## Mikihob

Usually people who have dealt with such hard, emotional blows are very considerate of the feelings of those around them. How odd, she wasn't. The things she has gone through is so hard. Especially, losing her husband so young and then having her second husband leave her for another woman. Yes, they may have had a love-less and passion-less marriage but 30 years, wow. Is she the type to internalize her pain? Maybe she just assumed you would too and not even read the email. Can you talk to her about it to ease your mind? 

SarahLou welcome!!


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## SarahLou372

Hi there :hi:

I suffer PCOS and me and my OH are ttc out first baby :cry:


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## Christi85

SarahLou - of course feel free to join in! :flower: Looking at your signature, you've been TTC for 4 months and have PCOs? I'd say a pregnancy (well, a healthy viable one, that is) that comes in less than one year is awesome time, and one that comes within 2 years is still not too bad. I know PCOS can make things tricky though and Mikihob can sure tell you more about her own situation that's similar. But, even though you seem to have an obstacle in your TTC efforts, DON'T make the mistake of considering yourself 'infertile' as of yet with just 4 months under your belt. Having conceived for the first time after 16 cycles of TTC (sadly, only for it to turn out to be a missed miscarriage), I can tell you in retrospect that I still think the time it took us wasn't all that bad, except of course I wish it had been a viable pregnancy (so now hoping for another one that sticks and preferably one that comes sooner than last time). Anyway, welcome to the thread! :flower: Looking forward to hearing your story.

Mikihob - my MIL is totally one to internalize her pain. She doesn't share it with other people, but that still doesn't mean other people should be inconsiderate to her. I don't know what went through her mind, probably nothing much. She was probably just happy with the news and forwarded the email to all of us after adding her own 'touch'. Of course it's beyond me how a mother cannot be more sensitive to her children's emotional needs, but that's how she is :wacko: I, on the other hand, don't internalize my pain as such. I will usually tell people I feel like cr**p if we're close enough, but I will usually suggest we change topics and talk about 'lighter' things, so as to avoid depressing conversations. So I appear to be feeling fine. Oh well...:wacko: I may actually tell her, but it bothers me that I'd have to state the obvious: when a couple has just lost a pregnancy (however early on the baby stopped developing - it's still a very real loss to us!) and you know all about it, it's very inconsiderate and somewhat rude to send an email about another couple who just had a healthy baby in a celebratory tone! :nope:


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## SarahLou372

Thank you :flower:

I tried with my pervious partner for 18 months and never conceived, so it worries me about this time. Im currently taking metformin for my PCOS and I had two af's since starting (one starting the last day of may and the other 4th July so 34 days!) But I have missed this cycle im on CD 42! Sounds like im back to square one as far as af is concerned :cry:

I have to lose some weight but I don't feel the will power to keep my diet going long enough


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## Christi85

SarahLou372 said:


> Thank you :flower:
> 
> I tried with my pervious partner for 18 months and never conceived, so it worries me about this time. Im currently taking metformin for my PCOS and I had two af's since starting (one starting the last day of may and the other 4th July so 34 days!) But I have missed this cycle im on CD 42! Sounds like im back to square one as far as af is concerned :cry:
> 
> I have to lose some weight but I don't feel the will power to keep my diet going long enough

I see. That makes more sense then why you're lurking in the LTTC forum :winkwink: 
It's good that you're getting treatment for your PCOS. Hopefully that will help you have more regular cycles and eventually get a sticky bean :thumbup:. Yeah, I can't imagine having such long cycles. I take it that you have already ruled out pregnancy this cycle? Are you going to continue with metformin once you get AF again?

All the best to you and keep us posted on what's happening on your end!


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## Mikihob

*SarahLou* the only way I could keep motivated to lose weight and stay healthy was when I was on birth control. My PCOS symptoms are too powerful, they practically rule my life! Add Clomid and I am a mess. You may need Clomid too. Clomid, especially with Metformin can help you ovulate more/high quality eggs and increase your chances for conception. Are you seeing a doc for fertility currently?? 

Be warned that some PCOS women do not respond to Clomid. In 2012 I took it for 6 months and didn't respond well- up to 150mg. I started taking Maca Root (as advised by the nurse/midwife in my docs office) and on this 6 month go at Clomid I have ovulated and had a period every month. You might want to give it a try. Mine is a capsule that I take each morning with prenatals, Vit C, Calcium + Vit D and probiotics. 

*Christi* I hear on the "mothers should be more in tune." My mom says things sometimes and I am like, really? She said something once about never being a grandmother. I was thinking to myself "How long have I been trying? Hello?" I don't think they mean any harm, it's just them thinking out loud. But still, it is painful to have to speak the obvious to your MIL. Sigh. Why can't life be easier??


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## Hatethewait85

Glad the hpt seems to be getting more faint Christi. I think a 3.5 hr hold is probably plenty. I'll be interested to see what your beta is tomorrow. Hopefully nice and low. 

So sorry to hear about your MIL, too. I can't believe she was so inconsiderate. :hugs: You have every right to be upset about that. I think most people don't truly understand how awful a loss is unless they've been through it themselves so I'm sure it didn't even register to her that reading that e-mail may be difficult. I'm not saying it excuses her behavior at all. She definitely SHOULD have realized that, but sadly it doesn't surprise me. My bff and her hubby kept bringing up their pregnancy and I just wanted to scream do you not realize how hard it is for me to hear about this!!! Anyway, I'm sorry you had to feel that way. Hope you are able to have a nice chat with her about it so she knows for future reference. 

:hi: SarahLou. Hope the metformin kicks things into gear. Have you tested already to make sure you didn't get a bfp this month? I'm sure it's super hard to get motivated to lose weight. I would start with baby steps- cut one bad habit out, like soda. Add in one new activity, like going for a walk.


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## Mikihob

Ladies my 4th IUI was a BFN. Now onto saving money for IVF. :cry: I just feel like no matter what I do, I won't get pregnant. I am devastated. It's all my fault. We are using donor sperm cause DH doesn't produce, so with ovulation meds and an ovulation trigger plus a great timed IUI I STILL can't get pregnant. Sigh. 

Ok rant over. :haha: 

Hope you are all doing well! :hugs:


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## Christi85

Back from doctor. He did a physical (moderately painful) and an U/S. The ultrasound showed there were still some blood clots in there, so he prescribed 4 tablets of this medication to take every 6 hours (can't make out his writing, but I think he must have prescribed methegrine or something similar) to cause the uterus to contract and expel all that's left in there, so that I can hopefully stop bleeding. He said it should only be minor contractions and not really painful, but I'm not sure I believe it. Needless to say, I'm terrified to take the drug, even if it's just 4 tablets for a day. I'm scared of excessive bleeding and bad cramping again (like what I had last week), even though the doc said the cramping should only be minor. I haven't gone to pick up the prescription yet. If anyone has any experience with this kind of drug, please let me know. I'm toying with the idea of not taking it at all, but on the other hand, it should do the trick and stop the bleeding after everything that's left is out. 

Other than that, he said not to expect a period until my beta is negative, but he also didn't think there was a point in them drawing blood at this point. They gave me a urine test that came back positive (and I had a faint positive again this morning with my HPTs), so he thinks my hormones are probably still high. His instructions was for me to take the drug now and take a pregnancy test again in about 2 weeks. At that point it would hopefully be negative. If not, he wants me to go back and see him again then. I asked him about my travel plans for late September/early October and he said I should be fine by then.
Another annoying part is that we don't know if the clinic who did my D&C sent any tissue to surgical pathology, as my doctor didn't have a report yet. So I need to call the clinic now and ask what they did. My doc said they should have sent something to surgical pathology :wacko:. 

I'm beyond sick with all this. The only reason I chose the D&C was to have everything out asap, and it's beyond frustrating that my life is on hold because of all this.

Mikihob - I'm very sorry for your BFN. Sounded like this month was promising, but you can never know, and don't forget that IUI is basically a glorified version of timed intercourse, so the chances of success are not THAT much higher. IVF will definitely give you much higher chances since any embryos they will put in there will be already fertilized and at least of a decent -if not very good - quality. Big hugs from me :hugs::hugs:


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## Hatethewait85

Mikihob said:


> Ladies my 4th IUI was a BFN. Now onto saving money for IVF. :cry: I just feel like no matter what I do, I won't get pregnant. I am devastated. It's all my fault. We are using donor sperm cause DH doesn't produce, so with ovulation meds and an ovulation trigger plus a great timed IUI I STILL can't get pregnant. Sigh.
> 
> Ok rant over. :haha:
> 
> Hope you are all doing well! :hugs:

:hugs: I'm so sorry you the IUI didn't work. There are so many variables to make a baby it's amazing that anyone ever gets pregnant! Don't beat yourself up though- even with perfect conditions a baby only results 20% of the time. I like what christi said - with IVF you know you're putting in a great embryo. It has much better success rates than IUI. Be kind to yourself this weekend. :hugs: 



Christi85 said:


> Back from doctor. He did a physical (moderately painful) and an U/S. The ultrasound showed there were still some blood clots in there, so he prescribed 4 tablets of this medication to take every 6 hours (can't make out his writing, but I think he must have prescribed methegrine or something similar) to cause the uterus to contract and expel all that's left in there, so that I can hopefully stop bleeding. He said it should only be minor contractions and not really painful, but I'm not sure I believe it. Needless to say, I'm terrified to take the drug, even if it's just 4 tablets for a day. I'm scared of excessive bleeding and bad cramping again (like what I had last week), even though the doc said the cramping should only be minor. I haven't gone to pick up the prescription yet. If anyone has any experience with this kind of drug, please let me know. I'm toying with the idea of not taking it at all, but on the other hand, it should do the trick and stop the bleeding after everything that's left is out.
> 
> Other than that, he said not to expect a period until my beta is negative, but he also didn't think there was a point in them drawing blood at this point. They gave me a urine test that came back positive (and I had a faint positive again this morning with my HPTs), so he thinks my hormones are probably still high. His instructions was for me to take the drug now and take a pregnancy test again in about 2 weeks. At that point it would hopefully be negative. If not, he wants me to go back and see him again then. I asked him about my travel plans for late September/early October and he said I should be fine by then.
> Another annoying part is that we don't know if the clinic who did my D&C sent any tissue to surgical pathology, as my doctor didn't have a report yet. So I need to call the clinic now and ask what they did. My doc said they should have sent something to surgical pathology :wacko:.
> 
> I'm beyond sick with all this. The only reason I chose the D&C was to have everything out asap, and it's beyond frustrating that my life is on hold because of all this.
> 
> Mikihob - I'm very sorry for your BFN. Sounded like this month was promising, but you can never know, and don't forget that IUI is basically a glorified version of timed intercourse, so the chances of success are not THAT much higher. IVF will definitely give you much higher chances since any embryos they will put in there will be already fertilized and at least of a decent -if not very good - quality. Big hugs from me :hugs::hugs:

Sorry I don't have any personal experience with that medication. It's hard to believe any guy when they say anything about uterine cramping 'not hurting' or being 'mild'. What do they know?! I hope he's right though. It would be good to put this behind you sooner rather than later. That's good that he thought you should be fine to travel by the end of September. 

How frustrating though about your D&C and not knowing if they sent anything off to pathology. Did you find out anything yet?


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## slg76

I took Methergine after my DE. It is to stop the bleeding. I hope your body gets back on track soon! It is so frustrating to have to deal with these things when the pregnancy is over!


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## Christi85

Thank you ladies! Let's hope it works. I think I'll start it tomorrow morning and take it over the next 24 hours (one pill every 6 hours, 4 pills total). The only thing that consoles me is that it's only going to be a day, so even if the pain is horrible, it's only a day.

Thanks HtW! I spoke to the nurse of the clinic and she told me that she sent my doc a report this week, so he should get it any day now. She basically said they didn't send anything to surgical pathology because they assessed what they took out post D&C and found it to be exactly what they were expecting to see. In these cases she said they don't send it to surgical pathology, because they assess it to be normal. Whatever! I told her about the methergine and she actually confirmed what I was expecting: she said it's safe to take it if I want to speed things up, but to expect a lot of cramping and to take my Advil with it and I should be fine. I've been reading a lot online (maybe I shouldn't) and there are a lot of women who report horrible cramping on this drug, though I did also find a few who had minor to no cramping. Also, most women seem to have taken it either to induce a missed miscarriage to begin, or right after their D&C. So I wonder if that in itself made it more painful for them. Since I'll only take it for a few small-ish blood clots that are low enough in my uterus, near the cervix (and would probably get expelled on their own anyway) and a whole 2 weeks post D&C, I'm hopeful that my cramping may be tolerable. Last thing I want is land in the ER on a weekend...

Thanks sIg. This drug confuses me. It seems to do both things at once - both expel any remaining blood AND reduce bleeding, which I can't quite wrap my head around as they seem to be contradictory. Did you have much cramping/bleeding while on it? Do you remember how long you took it for and how long it took for it to kick in (and for the symptoms to go away once you stopped it)? Thanks!


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## Christi85

Took the Methergine on Saturday. First pill at 10:00am, last one at 4:00am Sunday (yes, I set the alarm :wacko:) and laid low the whole weekend in case I had bad pain or a ton of bleeding. It's been more than 24 hours now since my last dose. I don't know if it helped that I took it together with Advil, but the pain was very bearable, though I also got leg cramps, lower back cramps and a bit of stomach upset, but nothing too bad. 

I'm a little confused as to how it has worked and how it was supposed to work. My doctor specifically said he was prescribing it to help expel what was left, but as I hear from sIg and other ladies online, it is also used to help stop bleeding. The drug pamphlet I got from the pharmacy also says it is to manage bleeding.
Anyway, my experience so far: I only had two gushes of brown blood (the second one with a small clot) on Saturday night and again on Sunday morning, neither of which was a lot of blood, but that was it. I've been having either just drops or nothing ever since. So naturally, I'm quite confused. I thought I'd give it all of today and maybe even tomorrow, keep an eye on how things are going, and at least call the doctor's office to report what's going on and ask if what I'm experiencing is what was supposed to happen. I'm more than happy with no bleeding, but I was under the impression that the whole point of taking those pills was to temporarily increase the bleeding so that the uterus clears faster :shrug:

In other news, our friends' baby who was born last week was born 3 weeks premature via C-section (the mother had developed pre-eclampsia) and is in the NICU with high blood sugar levels and his temperature drops every time he is removed from the lamp, so the doctors aren't happy and are keeping him in for as long as it's needed to stabilize him. My MIL saw her friend (the happy grandma) on the weekend, and she told her what was up, so after I found out about all these problems, I felt very bad about being bitchy earlier on...:blush::blush:


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## Mikihob

Christi did the doc say the blood would increase right away? Maybe it will take a couple days to expel so maybe you will bleed today and then be done. OR, you didn't have as much left as was thought. I am glad that you didn't cramp badly, I was worried. :winkwink: :thumbup: 

I hope that your friends baby gets well soon. My eldest step-daughter (who is not my husbands bio daughter and is on the outs with him :wacko: :dohh: ) had her first child early due to pre-eclampsia. She is beautiful and growing perfectly. Hopefully your friends baby does the same. :hugs: 

That was nice that your MIL explained to the grandma friend about the delicate situation BUT, she still handled it erroneously earlier. I think you had every right to be mad and vent about how the excited email made you feel. At least now you don't have to be mad at her insensitivity because she made up for it. :thumbup: 

Hope everything can get well, stay well and let you move forward. :hugs:


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## Christi85

Mikihob said:


> Christi did the doc say the blood would increase right away? Maybe it will take a couple days to expel so maybe you will bleed today and then be done. OR, you didn't have as much left as was thought. I am glad that you didn't cramp badly, I was worried. :winkwink: :thumbup:

All the doctor said was that he was prescribing the drug to help expel what was left. He didn't say when to expect that to happen and I didn't think to ask :dohh: Somehow I presumed it would happen while on the medication or very soon afterwards, as it seems to be a medication that gets out of your system fairly quickly. I will definitely give it a couple days to see what happens, but to me it feels like the longer I go without anything happening, the less likely it will be for anything to actually happen. Especially if nothing happens by 48 hours of the last pill (which will be tomorrow morning), at which point I may call the doc just to be sure. Then again, it is confusing because the medication instructions specifically say it is used to 'control bleeding', and I have read online accounts where women were bleeding continuously for several days after their D&C (as I was) and were given this medication which stopped their bleeding. Which is what I am seeing. I'm not complaining at all. I love it that the bleeding has subsided so much (almost stopped) after 2+ weeks of the D&C, I just want to make sure that this is normal and expected. I wonder, is it even possible for the medication to make the clots dissolve and get absorbed by the body instead of getting out? :wacko:


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## Hatethewait85

Good to hear the bleeding has slowed down. Did you call the doc to make sure you responded the way he intended? From my understanding is that it increases uterine contractions but also constricts blood vessels. So the contractions would help you expel any clots or loose blood, but the constricted blood vessels would slow/stop any unnecessary bleeding. That seems to make sense of things (at least in my head) but you are right everything I look at mentions controlling bleeding post-partum. 

Sorry to hear about your friends baby. They must be so scared! I hope it all turns out ok. You can't feel bad for your thoughts and feelings before you knew- they did not cause this.


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## Christi85

This actually makes more sense :dohh:. I think I'm responding fine. I actually didn't call the doctor today because I ended up having 2-3 more 'gushes' later on Monday, so I figured things must be 'clearing out'. Today it was much lighter than any previous day and it has turned a bit 'watery' too (sorry TMI). Which I had read online from some other women. So I think I'm on the right path and hopefully it will all clear out within the next few days. It's frustrating and hard to wait, but I keep reminding myself that I was told by the clinic that up to 3-4 weeks of bleeding/spotting post D&C is considered normal. I'm now at 2 1/2 weeks, so still well within limits, and I'm seeing good progress, so that's good.

Other than that, I finally spoke to my acupuncturist today, since I figure I'm now well enough to go back for sessions. I'll be seeing her later this week and she said she'd be able to help me 'get back in order' even if I'm not planning on TTCing again for a while. 

I know, I can't imagine having a baby only to find out they were born with health problems and have to take medication and be monitored (not to mention stay away from mommy and daddy) from the get go. I also can't imagine going home without a baby and having to visit your little one in the hospital every day. I too hope that he will get better soon and discharged from the NICU.


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## Hatethewait85

Glad that makes sense to you too and that things are heading in the right direction now. Hopefully the bleeding is completely done soon. 

Hope you enjoy your first session back at acupuncture. I have found it very helpful to getting my body back in gear. It's good to get your body in the best shape possible even if you aren't ttc right away. That way when you are ready, your body will be ready too.


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## Christi85

Sorry I haven't written any updates here lately. The past couple of weeks have been crazy again :wacko:

After I took the Methergine, the bleeding stopped completely within a few days (but without me expelling much of the leftover blood, which concerned me a little bit). It did give me nasty leg and lower back cramps though, which luckily, acupuncture took care of. Quite incredible, really! I just had one session and I was in quite bad pain. By the end of the acupuncture session I could still feel the cramps, but I was already feeling much better. By the next morning, all cramping was gone and never returned :happydance: Thumbs up for acupuncture! :happydance:

I had some more brown spotting about a week after the bleeding had stopped accompanied by light 'period-like' cramping, which lasted a few days, but it seems to have stopped again now. Quite possibly it's all the hormones still settling down, or it might have been 'clearing' all that Methergine didn't clear out initially. And I'm finally getting negative pregnancy tests 4-something weeks post D&C :happydance::happydance: After I last saw my doctor I decided to follow his advice and wait at least 2 weeks to take another pregnancy test. Then the spotting started again, so I decided to take one the next morning. The test sticks I had been using (which had still turned positive 2 weeks post D&C) were now negative - yay!! But I decided to take a Clearblue digital as well to cross-confirm (the one that reads 'Pregnant' or 'Not Pregnant') and that one came out showing 'Pregnant' :nope: So I then decided to wait a few more days and I took another Clearblue digital just this morning, since this was the one brand still showing positive. This time I got a 'Not Pregnant' sign :happydance: which also means, I don't need to see my doctor again for now :thumbup: So now I think I'm finally on the right path to getting back to normal. No period as of yet, but it could take a couple of weeks I think, since I still had positive results (at least from some test brands) up until a few days ago. I only hope it comes in the next 2-3 weeks (even 3 1/2 weeks would still be ok), as I'm traveling in exactly 4 weeks from today and would rather not get my first post D&C period while on my trip, if I could help it. 

But oh well - we'll see what happens.


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## Hatethewait85

Hey! I was beginning to wonder how you were getting on. So happy to hear you are finally getting negative HPT's!!!! So weird to say that. I hope your period shows up before you leave. I had the same worry with my vacation planned for next week- camping is not a fun time to have AF! But luckily I think AF will be here tomorrow so she should be gone by the time we leave :thumbup:


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## Christi85

And...AF is finally here! :happydance::happydance:
Started last night, just a day shy of 6 weeks post D&C :happydance:
I have to thank acupuncture for that. I'd been having moderate to bad lower abdomen cramps for 2 days and I was getting the icky feeling I get right before I start AF, yet no sign of AF except for some light brown spotting. My temperature was also way down (even though it's been really hot in LA this whole week), so I knew it was time for AF at last. Yet it was a no show for 2 days. Luckily I had my weekly acupuncture appointment yesterday and told my acupuncturist. She did a treatment to encourage the period to start and also to ease my abdominal cramping. Lo and behold, within 3 hours of getting out of her office, I started to bleed :thumbup: And my cramping is mostly gone and the few times I feel it, it's very light :thumbup:
Now my AF is a little weird, but after the many changes and the hormonal ups and downs my body went through in the last couple of months, this is to be expected (my doctor's nurse also warned me that my first AF may be weird and sometimes even the first 2-3 AFs post miscarriage/D&C can be weird, so I'm not too worried). Flow-wise I'd say it's moderate so far and not too far off my usual flow, and unless the flow picks up by day 3 tomorrow (my heaviest flow days are typically days 2&3), I expect it to stay like this and eventually die down in a few days. What's weird about it is that it is more 'watery' and 'runny' than normal, if that makes sense. And any clots I've been passing (all small to moderate size) are also kinda 'runny', more like jelly than solid clots. Sorry for TMI :blush: I did some googling and it seems like lots of women have a watery 1-2 AFs post D&C. I don't think it even merits a call to my doctor to ask, unless things do get too weird. Cramping-wise, ever since my acupuncture session, I've been having anything from light to no cramping, which is awesome. As long as it goes on for a few days (I would hope for 4-7 days - my normal AFs would last 6-7 days) and resembles a normal AF, I am going to consider this my first post-D&C cycle :thumbup:
I never thought I'd be so excited for AF to arrive :wacko:


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## slg76

Great news!!!! After my DC it took 111 days to get a period!!! Acupuncture is what finally got mine going too. So glad your body is moving on :)


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## Christi85

slg76 said:


> Great news!!!! After my DC it took 111 days to get a period!!! Acupuncture is what finally got mine going too. So glad your body is moving on :)

Wow, close to 4 months? :wacko::wacko: I imagine your nerves while waiting for so long :nope: I guess mine was something like 41-42 days (started late in the evening yesterday, some doctors would consider today as CD1, but whatever). I know, isn't acupuncture amazing? I can't believe how much it has helped me in such a short time doing one 45-minute session once a week, even with the 3-week break I took around the time of the D&C and right afterwards. 

I may be starting the herbs again soon (I'm on nutritional supplements already for detox, reconstruction of cells etc. but not the actual herbs). My acupuncturist thinks it will give my body a boost if I take them for 1-2 cycles before I start TTCing again. So I'm considering that. I haven't done anything yet, because: a)I wanted to wait for my period and not mess with my already messed up hormones, and b)I happened to speak to another acupuncturist/holistic specialist who is also a family member (but sadly, lives 3 hours away :nope:). From the discussion we had, I realized that my acupuncturist (who has great skills, btw!) is more of an acupuncturist and nutritional specialist than an herbalist. While I need both acupuncture and nutrition/supplement advice and I intend to keep seeing her for my sessions, I also need a real herbal specialist for my herbal treatment. Someone who will mix and make custom herbs for me, based on my individual case. This I haven't had with my acupuncturist, unfortunately. The herbs I took the month I got pregnant were the Blossom/Evergreen line of herbs (different ones for each cycle phase), and while I don't doubt they are good (heck - they helped me get pregnant for the first time in 16 months!), I'm not crazy that they are a one-fomula-fits-all treatment developed by a company with different fertility challenges in mind. I think it's worth trying to get something more specific and tailored to my exact needs and the challenges of my individual body, and my discussion with my relative reinforced this belief. With just a brief talk we had, she thought my problem was a weak 'kidney chi' and offered to have a more in-depth talk and treatment with me and prescribe some custom herbs based on what comes out of that talk. Without charging me for her services of course, since we are family :thumbup: (she's my step mother in-law, my FIL's second wife). She's going to be in LA again from late next week 'till the middle of the week after next, so I've agreed to meet with her (nothing to lose, right?) and see what she suggests for my case herb-wise. Then I'm going to decide which herb path I want to follow, but I'm leaning towards taking custom herbs that I'd know were prescribed for my individual case.


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## Christi85

Here I am for an update!

First of all, the time is nearly here for my trip, leaving on 9/30 and will be gone for a little over a month. Can't wait :happydance: For now I'm just tying off some loose ends, but I'm already mentally checked out from work and such :haha:

I'm on CD15 today on my 1st post D&C cycle and waiting to ovulate any day now. My CM picked up a lot yesterday, although I feel kinda drier so far today, but we will see. I'm still following my ovulation, even though we won't be trying again until my November cycle (3rd cycle post D&C) or even my December cycle (4th cycle post D&C), depending on how strong my body feels by that time. I'm using the saliva ovulation test and for those not familiar with those, it displays 3 saliva patterns: non fertile, transitional towards most fertile, and most fertile. Yesterday (CD14) I got the transitional pattern for the first time and today (CD15) it as still transitional but stronger than yesterday's. So hopefully, I'll be getting a 'most fertile' pattern in 1-2 days' time. My first post D&C period wasn't as bad as I was fearing - cramping was light to none thanks to acupuncture, and bleeding amount was exactly the same as my normal bleeding, only more 'runny' the first 2 days. I had 6 days of full blown bleeding, but then I had 2 days of brown spotting and another 3 days of very light discharge-spotting until it stopped completely after CD11. My normal periods last 6-7 days with the last day or two being just brown spotting, and then it stops, so this one was definitely longer. I attribute it to it being the first post D&C cycle, which everyone says can be a little (or a lot) crazy, and not worrying too much about it. They also say it is possible that ovulation doesn't happen on that first cycle, but I hope this is not the case with me. I'm eager to see my body fully back on track :winkwink: So far so good...

In other news, I met with my step mother-in-law this past weekend. She was in LA and practices various aspects of Chinese medicine in San Diego, so it was a good opportunity to meet with her since she was in town. After a long 'consultation', her conclusion was that I have a very strong yang and quite a weak yin, so we need to balance those out better. She thinks this is causing my hormonal imbalance. In a nutshell, I'm using up too much of my body's energy (both physically and mentally/emotionally) without giving it back enough. It doesn't help that I am very petite with not much fat to 'sustain' me (I'm 5'2" with a weight of between 104-109, so quite little and my BMI always falls within the low normal), but since this is my 'constitution' we shouldn't try to change that. She thinks I need to focus on sustenance, and mental and physical rest for now. In other words, sleep well (not always possible for me :blush:), eat a balanced diet with emphasis on nutrition (I'd been doing that but I've increased my food consumption throughout the day - with good healthy food always, nothing junk :winkwink: and surprisingly, with just 3 days of doing this I feel much less tired throughout the day :wacko:), and as little stress as possible, doing things that I enjoy and make me happy etc. Oh, and not being too harsh on myself, which can be a challenge :winkwink: She also told me to keep taking my multivitamin, as well as 20ml/day of Floradix iron (liquid, highly absorbable iron) for 3 months, as I looked quite pale to her (the multivitamin I take though contains 30mg/iron, so not sure I need Floradix), and to pick either cod liver oil or evening primrose for my daily omega 3 supplementation. I'm leaning towards evening primrose, since it's easier on the stomach and has mild hormone balancing effects as well. Interestingly, she was against me taking everything else my acupuncturist had given me - such as the L-Arginine, CoQ10, chlorofyll complex, flaxseed oil etc. etc. since she said all this actually puts my body/liver to too much work, which is the opposite of what we want to achieve at this point. We want more energy to get into my body as opposed to it going out too much, and we don't want my organs to work too hard for no real reason, as this also makes the body go 'hyper' and could even be affecting my sleep (which is often disrupted). Interesting views, but they do make sense to me. So I thought I'd follow her advice. I asked her about the CoQ10 and she thinks I don't need it and if I'm concerned with the quality of my eggs (mainly because of my low AMH), I should make sure I eat foods with zinc such as sea food. I checked and my vitamin contains zinc to cover 100% of my daily need, so that together with zinc-rich foods should be enough. She said for now I need to focus on nourishing and resting 'my body and soul' in order to fully heal and be strong to support a future pregnancy. After I start feeling better, she can also give me some custom herbs, but for now she didn't want to give me anything extra until I feel 'stronger'. She said my acupuncturist (who is not oriental) is following a set protocol that many in the industry follow and prescribe, but she felt I may be needing something slightly different - different combinations of herbs and such, as opposed to a standardized protocol. Which I agree with. She's also happy to do acupuncture on me, but I have to go all the way down to San Diego where her practice is, which is 3 hours away :wacko: So we shall see. I wonder if it would be too crazy to use my regular acupuncturist for the acupuncture part (she's good, I like her - it's the herbs prescription I have doubts about) but go to my step MIL for herbs, since I won't need these refilled too often?? I certainly can't be driving to SD once a week, but I'm even wondering if once a month would be too much. Good thing about the step MIL, she won't be charging for her services, and I definitely want to take advantage of her offer somehow, as I seem to agree with her views about food, holistic treatment, supplements etc. more than with my actual acupuncturist. I'm glad I had this talk with her, as it helped and made much sense to me. I was feeling a little lost and confused. 
Finally, her view is that the body needs a minimum of 6 months and ideally closer to a year to fully heal from a miscarriage. My plan was to start TTCing again either on the November cycle or the December one. I doubt I will want to wait much longer than that though, as my low AMH is always in the back of my head, even though I try not to think about it much and usually I'm successful. After all, there are reported cases of women whose AMH increased on subsequent tests, and research on this marker is still scatty, so I'm trying to keep a cool head about it and not let it get to me. Still, sometimes I do get anxious about whether I only have a couple years of good enough eggs left ahead, but when I mentioned this to my step MIL, she said not to think about it and to focus on having ONE HEALTHY CHILD. She said even one child would make me complete and I shouldn't worry about having one or two or whatever number. She also said that you don't need thousands upon thousands of eggs to create a healthy baby (or even two), so basically back to the theory of 'one healthy egg' is all that's needed' :flower:

Phew - I think that was everything for now. Hope everyone is doing well!


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## Hatethewait85

You must be so excited for your trip! A month away sounds perfect :thumbup: I hope you enjoy it all! Is your hubs coming with you?

It sounds like your body is making every effort to get back to normal which is awesome!!! Did you get the fertile saliva yet? Is the saliva method when you look under the microscope for ferning or something like that? 

What a productive meeting you've had with your MIL! I think it would work well to have her do the herbs and then continue to see your current acupuncturist weekly for acupuncture. Would you even need to meet with her at all for the herbs? I guess she'll want to look at your tongue and check your pulse? At least that is what my lady does- she's not oriental either which I thought was weird at first. But she seems excellent so I'm not going to worry that she doesn't fit the 'image.'

Did your MIL explain why the body needs so long to heal? That seems like a crazy amount of time to wait if you ask me. I'd be like you!! haha. As I understand the low AMH, it just means you have low number of eggs left but it does not say anything about quality. Your young age makes it more likely the quality of your eggs is good!


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## Christi85

Thank you, yes, I am very excited! :flower: I'm busy doing laundry etc. today, I'll be packing up later and I fly tomorrow evening. 
Yes, I'm so glad I can 'take' a month off - the good thing about being self employed, but of course that means I won't be working and I won't be getting paid either :dohh: Unfortunately hubby isn't coming with me. We thought he could maybe join me for my last 2 weeks there and fly back with me, but the nature of his current job doesn't really allow him to take 2 weeks off all at once (he's at a digital advertising agency in charge of several client accounts), so we thought we'd leave it for this year. Although the same happened again last year (he'll be working there 2 years in November), so we've started to think that it may be time for him to look for another job with better flexibility. He'll be using his remaining days off for any interviews that may come up (assuming he'll find suitable jobs to apply to in the next month or so), and the rest he'll be taking around Thanksgiving. We're going to miss each other, that's for sure.

As for me, I guess I didn't end up ovulating this month :nope: Or at least, the tests didn't pick it up. Which is weird, because I had a lot of fertile CM on Wednesday and then again Friday-Saturday, but the test was always negative. Maybe my body geared up to ovulating, but couldn't get to actually finishing the work? No clue :blush: Yes, the saliva test is the one with the miscroscope where you are trying to see the ferning pattern. I used it the month I got pregnant for the first time and the patterns were much more pronounced than this time, but I remember still feeling confused back then and unsure as to when I did ovulate. I remember it gave me 1 day positive- 1 day transitional - 1 day positive then 1 day transitional again, and then I stopped testing. But obviously I did ovulate that month, as the results showed :winkwink:
I hope the next cycle will be more normal, and hopefully my cycles should be back to 100% within the next couple of months. I may also go back to urine OPKs.

Yes, it was a very productive meeting I thought. Minor correction: she's not my actual MIL. She's my step-MIL, my FIL's second wife. So not hubby's Mom :winkwink: Anyway, yes, I don't know how close I will be required to be to be treated by her. If it's mainly herbs, I'm sure we can find a way to only meet every now and then. For a more holistic treatment, I'd love to be treated by her since she's also family and has an extra incentive to give me the 5-star treatment, but the distance is a big problem...
No, I don't think she mentioned why she thinks the body needs that long to heal. Honestly, I think it's just different people having different opinions. E.g. my doctor told me I could TTC after I get my first period post D&C. The doctor who did my D&C as well as the nurse at that clinic told me it would be a good idea to wait 2-3 cycles to give the body some time. I've heard other doctors going with the 6 month rule, and again others who will say you can start TTCing right away, without even waiting for a period. So I think I'll stick with my original plan of starting again once I feel better and stronger on a physical and on an emotional level. I'm thinking towards the end of 2014 I'm likely to be back in the game :flower:

I agree, an acupuncturist doesn't need to be oriental to be amazing. My step-MIL is actually Middle Eastern but not Chinese, so it's not a must for me either :winkwink: It's just, as much as I like my acupuncturist, there is something that is a little off and I think it's the lack of a personalized holistic treatment that I was after. Probably nothing to do with her not being oriental.

As for the AMH, yes, it's a very confusing marker with not much research behind it at this time. There are even studies that challenge its validity and say it's only good to predict likely IVF outcomes in terms of numbers of eggs harvested, but it says nothing about someone's fertility or chances of having a successful pregnancy. I agree about quality too - and quality can also be improved via one's diet, nutritional supplements, even fertility massage/yoga etc., so there are things that can be done about it. Also, there have been recorded cases where women's AMH actually went up in subsequent testing, so despite the general consensus that it can only go down, there have been cases who have proven it's not so black-and-white. So I'm trying not to let it get to me and I still think I have at least 3-5 years of decent fertility and decent chances of a healthy pregnancy ahead of me :winkwink:

I'll make sure I read all of you in Greece and I'll be sure to update this thread if there is anything worth mentioning, otherwise I'll catch you all in early November I guess :flower:


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