# Help! Need to hear IVF success stories of highly fragmented DNA in sperm!!



## 1babydreamer

Hello everyone! :hi: I've just had a five day transfer on my first round of IVF and I'm incredibly nervous! I really need to hear some positive success stories from couples in a similar situation.

A little background on my journey... My DH and I started TTC after our wedding in May 2011, by the following spring we still had not concieved so we had some preliminary tests done and everything was normal including my DH's SA, totally normal and good. After another year of not conceiving and two failed IUI's we decided to move on to IVF as I just turned 35 in April. Right before we started, my R.E. reccommended for my DH to do an *SCSA* test which stands for *Sperm Chromatic Structure Assay*. It tests for the levels of DNA fragmentation in the sperm. Apparently all men have some degree of fragmentation, but the higher the levels, the lower the fertility. Levels over 30% can result in lowered fertility, higher rate of miscarriages and failed ART cycles. My DH's results came back a shocking *38%* and high/abnormal on the other two markers. :cry:

Keep in mind, his sperm analysis was perfect! Great numbers, motility and morphology! He's a super healthy, active, athletic guy with no history of illness or chemo. Since this test is not very well known or even suggested, it's hard to find success stories. Most men with sperm issues have it show up on the SA but men can have a normal SA and still have high DNA fragmentation. That's why our R.E. suggested ICSI with TESE where they retrieve the sperm directly from the testicle.

Sorry for the novel but anyway, I would really love to hear stories from ladies in the same situation as the SCSA test is not very common and I can't seem to find anyone who has this problem!


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## Strawberry13

Hi! I wanted to reply although I don't have a success story to share (yet anyway). My husbands regular SA was ok but not great (our first dr told us he was completely fine then our new dr said his morph was a problem) and his dr had him take the SCSA test... It was higher than they wanted (I think 16% and they want below 10%) but not high enough that they recommended going straight to icsi. But it did help us put everything together and realize why we likely weren't getting pg naturally which was very helpful! We're doing 1 or 2 more iuis and if they don't work going to icsi. 

I will tell you though, my good friend had severe Mf issues not sure what his DNA frag test was but I'm pretty sure it wasn't good at all. They did ivf and are expecting later this year. They only had 1 embro on transfer day and it worked. 

The fact that you had so many good ones on day 5 is great! So stay positive you have a great chance!! Keep us posted. 

Also I agree that not enough people know about the SCSA it is such an important test I don't know why they don't push it at most fertility clinics!


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## 1babydreamer

Thank you so much Strawberry! Fingers crossed for you that your iui works! 16% is not too bad at all as under 15 is normal and up to 25% is average to borderline. 

I totally agree with you that this test is not very well known or talked about. I just want to get the word out there, especially to couples who have been trying for a long time and have multiple failed iui's and ivf's. My obgyn never mentioned it when she had DH do a SA and the first fertility specialist we saw also never brought it up. My DH even asked if there were any other tests they could do on him and we were told no! Thank goodness we switched to our current R.E. and he told us about it. But even he didn't really push the test as my DH is only 38 and very healthy. I'm so glad we decided to do it as IVF with TESE and ICSI is our only chance!

Thank you again so much for giving me hope with your friends story and hopefully we will get to add our successes here too soon!! ;)


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## 1babydreamer

Bump


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## kristyn78

My DH also has fragmented sperm. We were told our only option was IVF and we did a sperm aspiration on our 3rd cycle. Our 3rd cycle gave us our son who just turned 3 last Saturday. It can happen. We just did our fourth cycle and received a low positive so i am going back tomorrow for another beta. This last cycle we actually did the biopsy and this is the only cycle we have ever had any to freeze.

Stay positive it can happen!


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## 1babydreamer

kristyn78 said:


> My DH also has fragmented sperm. We were told our only option was IVF and we did a sperm aspiration on our 3rd cycle. Our 3rd cycle gave us our son who just turned 3 last Saturday. It can happen. We just did our fourth cycle and received a low positive so i am going back tomorrow for another beta. This last cycle we actually did the biopsy and this is the only cycle we have ever had any to freeze.
> 
> Stay positive it can happen!

Thank you sooooo much Kristyn!! Your story give me some desperately needed hope!! :hugs: Fingers crossed for you and good luck on your next beta :dust:


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## BellarinaBaby

I can't remember exactly what my husbands number was, but I believe it was around 40%. He also had a good analysis for everything else and we went through 3 failed IUI's before moving onto IVF. We found out about the DNA fragmentation while preparing for the first round, so our RE recommended ICSI. I had 8 eggs retrieved, only 4 fertilized, 2 transferred on day 3, and the remaining 2 did not survive. My expectations were low, but our first and only round was a success! Good luck, I hope you also have a successful round!


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## 1babydreamer

BellarinaBaby said:


> I can't remember exactly what my husbands number was, but I believe it was around 40%. He also had a good analysis for everything else and we went through 3 failed IUI's before moving onto IVF. We found out about the DNA fragmentation while preparing for the first round, so our RE recommended ICSI. I had 8 eggs retrieved, only 4 fertilized, 2 transferred on day 3, and the remaining 2 did not survive. My expectations were low, but our first and only round was a success! Good luck, I hope you also have a successful round!

Thanks so much BellarinaBaby! Your story sound very similar to mine and I so hope to join you with a BFP soon! We also found out about the fragmentation as we were already into our first IVF. I'm praying and hoping but I'm pretty sure I got a negative on my HPT this morning :cry:. If you tilt it in the light there is the faintest shadow of a line but I can't dare to hope anymore. Blood test is Monday morning so I guess I'll know for sure by Monday afternoon if this first IVF cycle worked.


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## BellarinaBaby

Fingers crossed for you 1babydreamer!


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## Briss

Hi 1babydreamer, I do not have a success story yet but I can see that you got your BFP on your FET cycle following two failed IVF. Can I ask if all 3 cycles were done on ICSI with TESE?

I had a natural cycle IVF which ended in chemical, I am suspecting my DH's sperm was the problem. it's generally quite poor and we did ICSI. we have not done the sperm DNA fragmentation test cos no one mentioned it before. I am thinking about it now. if it's going to be above 30% what are our options? TESE seems a bit harsh I am not sure my DH will agree to that. I was looking into IMSI. I also heard that high doses of antioxidants can improve SA. has anyone tried it?


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## 1babydreamer

Briss said:


> Hi 1babydreamer, I do not have a success story yet but I can see that you got your BFP on your FET cycle following two failed IVF. Can I ask if all 3 cycles were done on ICSI with TESE?
> 
> I had a natural cycle IVF which ended in chemical, I am suspecting my DH's sperm was the problem. it's generally quite poor and we did ICSI. we have not done the sperm DNA fragmentation test cos no one mentioned it before. I am thinking about it now. if it's going to be above 30% what are our options? TESE seems a bit harsh I am not sure my DH will agree to that. I was looking into IMSI. I also heard that high doses of antioxidants can improve SA. has anyone tried it?

Hi *Briss*! I really think the fertility community needs to be more aware of sperm issues and DNA fragmentation in particular. I got pregnant after both my fresh IVF cycles but unfortunately they did not last long. The first was a chemical and on the second, my beta didn't double and then started to drop. Our third which was FET seems to have worked. We transferred two but it seems only one has stuck. I really think the sperm fragmentation is the problem as they just can't know which ones are affected. The TESE gives you a much better chance at having more normal sperm than just regular donation and ICSI. My DH's urologist and our FS both confirmed that TESE was the best way to go as doing IVF without it would be a risky waste of time and money. 

DH was a trooper and he only had local anesthetic! He was sore for a few days but nothing he couldn't handle, and certainly nothing compared to what we go through! He was back at a very athletic job two days after :thumbup: Also, they got enough from him that one time to use for at least 7 cycles! :winkwink:
Hope this helps and best of luck to you!! Feel free to ask me any other questions :flower:


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## Briss

1babydreamer, thank you very much for responding. Did they just do TESE once and froze his sperm? how much sperm survived the thawing process?

Did they explain why the TESE gives you more normal sperm?


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## Briss

Just to share some more info I got on a different board with regards to sperm DNA fragmentation 

"On the fragmentation the best way to look at it is 0-15 is normal, 15-29 is abnormal and 30 and above is impossible. The higher the number indicates not just fragmentation but structural defects in the DNA stran in the sperm which means it will not reproduce itself even if linked to another good stran. When you have numbers of 30 and above you are looking at donor sperm for pregnancy. There was a woman many years back who lost numerous embryos where the sperm analysis on the surface showed everything was perfect with high count, morphing great and motility very good but when the frag test was done as she said no a damn one of them was good. Some cases are caused by heredity and others by toxins such as heavy metals and others. You must use the fact that one in eight pregnancies miscarries based on the fragmentation in the first 12 weeks and this is based on the normal range of screwups. What is done normally is the hyper-stimulation with the egg harvest and the most robust taken for transfer and the others frozen. The odds on pregnancy on this method is 66% with 33% chance of twins. Using the frozen ones the chance is 50% for pregnancy with 25% chance of twins. Next part of this madness is your womb bed. You would assume that everything is equal anywhere on it but it isn't. There is a gradient on the womb bed where chemicals and enzymes tend to concentrate aiding the implantation like looking at a wave on a pond where you have peaks and troughs of concentration. This is why the odds of success are what they are. The frag test will determine the options as what you are going to do with minimizing the heartbreak involved."


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## 1babydreamer

Briss said:


> 1babydreamer, thank you very much for responding. Did they just do TESE once and froze his sperm? how much sperm survived the thawing process?
> 
> Did they explain why the TESE gives you more normal sperm?

The TESE procedure gives you better odds at having a more normal sample of sperm. Since it's aspirated directly from the testicle it hasn't had time to sit there and become fragmented or damaged. It's fresh, newly formed sperm. They got plenty from my DH from the one time to freeze and use for 7 cycles. He hasn't had to do it again and probably won't have to. 

I know I'm only 7 weeks along, but I really don't believe that there is no hope as that article you posted suggests. My DH has over 30% fragmentation and everything seems to be going well with my pregnancy so far. Of course I won't breathe easy until after we pass 12 weeks but I have read success stories from couples with high fragmentation having healthy babies with IVF, TESE & ICSI. There's always hope! :thumbup:


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## Briss

1babydreamer, thank you! I talked to a doc about TESE yesterday and he said that the problem with TESE is that they get sperm which is not mature and this may also lead to fertilisation problems. Did you have any issues with sperm maturity?


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## 1babydreamer

Briss said:


> 1babydreamer, thank you! I talked to a doc about TESE yesterday and he said that the problem with TESE is that they get sperm which is not mature and this may also lead to fertilisation problems. Did you have any issues with sperm maturity?

I guess not since I'm 7 weeks pregnant from TESE and we heard the heartbeat at 150bpm yesterday :winkwink:.

I think because TESE is relatively new, many doctors don't really know all that much about it and tend to be skeptical. If they used it more often I'm sure they wouldn't be so negative. My FS has used it numerous times with success ;)
 



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## Briss

Thank you, that's very reassuring. btw, lovely picture!!


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## Briss

Our urologist asked my DH to do sperm reactive oxidative test. Has anyone done that before? seems quite useful and I think it can also detect indirectly any DNA fragmentation https://www.clevelandclinic.org/reproductiveresearchcenter/pub/uronews_2007_1.pdf


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## dovkav123

Lots of good info ladies!
It's worthy to test my hubby. All the papers are submited to my RE we just need to make an appoinment with IVF lab.


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## 1babydreamer

Just wanted to check back in to say we're having a little boy! 20 weeks now and all tests so far have gone well and come back negative for any abnormalities. We are thrilled and can't wait to meet our little man!


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## Northernmonke

Hi all, I dont think I replied to this in the end but just wanted to say after 4 failed ICSI's my new clinic did a DNA frag test on hubby and found 34% were bad so they used IMSI this time and I am 18+1 weeks with twin girls :) we also had 2 to freeze for the first time. if only they had done that test at first hey. Good luck ladies xx


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## dovkav123

Congrats!!!:happydance::dance::yipee:


Did you do TESE with ICSI?


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## dovkav123

Northernmonke said:


> Hi all, I dont think I replied to this in the end but just wanted to say after 4 failed ICSI's my new clinic did a DNA frag test on hubby and found 34% were bad so they used IMSI this time and I am 18+1 weeks with twin girls :) we also had 2 to freeze for the first time. if only they had done that test at first hey. Good luck ladies xx

Thank you, so much for this message.
My hubby is against hormones. We'll make compromise we'll do a stim IVF but only one. It needs to work! 
My RE doesn't beleave in DnA fragm test but I do. She has never seen badly fragm sperm and she thinks there is no treatment for the bad one. But I think we have options. I have never heard about IMSI but I'll study more..
Do you mind asking in which country did you have this treatment done?


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## Briss

Our urologist did not recommend doing DNA fragmentation test because my hubby has poor morphology so he said this test is only going to depress us as we can more or less predict the outcome without wasting money on it. He recommended Proxeed vitamins to improve sperm quality (basically antioxidants). 

I also think that our next IVf is going to be with IMSI. There are a couple of clinics in London that I am considering who are using these procedure. It's basically just a bigger microscope and they can better select sperm but still it does not help with chromosome selection cos even a good looking sperm can have bad chromosomes. 

IMSI:

https://www.ivfcliniclondon.com/en/treatments/imsi.html

https://www.crgh.co.uk/icsi-and-imsi.php


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## dovkav123

For Dna fragm test dr. needs to kill the sperm first. How pitty. I wish they could select the best sperm and freeze for later. Every month dna fragm could be different:( Every month SA could be different...


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## Northernmonke

Hi all, so I am in the UK and changed clinics on the 4th go, we went to Lister in Chelsea London and would highly recommend them! Hubby had undecended testicles when he was younger so this causes his sperm issues. Basically, low count, morph and the other one (can't remember) anyway lowest count was 2 million but most of those were dud in some way... Anyway we had great embryos transferred on the 4th attempt and they said do the DNA frag test for the 5th they then saw that 34% were bad so they said to use imsi. Again we had great embies and this time they both took and 2 frosties. So for me I would recommend a million times over. The DNA test is £500, nothing considering the £40,000 we spent over all. Hubby was recommended proxeed, took it for 6 months ish, also vitamin C and E, wore no boxershorts, no alcohol etc. This did help but I hold most of it down to IMSI to be honest as they can see a lot better than ICSI which ones are better than others. Honestly ladies I was so worried this would never work for us and after 5 lots of egg collections it is hell but it has worked and I am praying we get our miracles in July xx


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## Briss

Northernmonke, thank you! I am also thinking about Lister or maybe UCH, they both do IMSi. H&H the rest of your pregnancy!


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## Northernmonke

Briss we have spoken before I think. Where are you in the UK? Im hoping you haven't been to the crap clinic I was at before in Great Missenden x


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## Northernmonke

Briss we have spoken before I think. Where are you in the UK? Im hoping you haven't been to the crap clinic I was at before in Great Missenden x


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## Briss

Northernmonke. I am based in London and we were with Create. I wanted to do natural IVF and the first cycle was good but ended in chemical, then they decided to go for stims and it just went horribly wrong we had zero fertilisation&#8230; heart broken ... both times it was ICSI but I think IMSI is the way forward for us cos of sperm quality. DH is undergoing a hormonal treatment which can hopefully improve his numbers before we can try again. I also need to recover from the stims. we are definitely changing clinics now but have not decided between listed and UCH. I like UCH but they may not take us on cos of my high FSH, they have cut off at 15 and mine can be higher.


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## Northernmonke

Ivf is so different for everyone and no set thing that will work for all. I honestly wish you all the luck in the world. Why did you only have mild stims? X


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## Briss

stims do not seem to work that well for high FSH ladies, not surprisingly they did not work for me. I really do not know what should have been the right approach: some say we needed the highest stim doses with high FSH; other were saying no point stimulating high FSH ovaries as they wont give you any more eggs, they just need a gentle push. with natural IVF at least you know you get the best possible egg that cycle; with stim IVf you get more eggs but the quality is just not there; with stims we had 3 follicle but most likely only one good quality mature egg which was lost to early ovulation, the remaining two were immature and poor quality. the embryologist said it likely due to stim meds as with the natural IVF the egg quality was good. I personally think the clinic crewed up so I am considering other clinics. If we did not have sperm issue I'd continue with natural IVF but the urologist said with our sperm stim IVF is the best option, ideally we need to get to 5 day blastocyst stage and chose the best embryo which should improve our odds. seems like poor sperm and high FSH is a very bad combination


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## bread baking

Hi,

I am a bit late to reply to your post. However, we were also given the diagnosis of high levels of DNA fragmentation in my hubby's sperm and were told to go straight to IVF or ICSI. However, my OB/GYN said there is actually very little sound scientific evidence of the clinical utility of the DNA fragmentation test. There is apparently a correlation between infertility and high levels of DNA fragmentation but correlation does not equal causation! Although I am 35, My OB/GYN recommended to give it another 6 months (we had been trying for 1.5 years). Well, four weeks later I was pregnant! 

We conceived naturally, which according to the fertility specialist we saw, was "impossible" and the baby is healthy and doing well (I am 16 weeks now) from all we can tell. I know that every case is different but I just wanted to let you know that people do get pregnant even with this diagnosis.

Good luck to you!


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## Northernmonke

Congrats thats great news, unfortunately for us we tried for 3 years and took 4 failed icsi so imsi was the only thing that worked for us. Others are very lucky, wish I was one of them but hey I'm doing ok now x


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## 1babydreamer

I agree, everyone is different and what works for one couple may not work for another. You have to get all the info you can and decide together what's best for you. 
Like you northernmonke we tried for 2 years with failed IUI`s and 2 MC. We are so very grateful to be finally pregnant and everything going well :).


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## dovkav123

WE did a sperm dna fragm test and the results will be in 2-4 weeks.
My hubby's morfology from 9 SAin 9 months only two were OK-19%and 20%, the others were only 5 %.
I hope the test will tell a lot about our next step


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## Baby Me

Ok so my DH has across the board bad semen analysis (see my sig) about 1% normal forms. We have exhausted free NHS goes and our new private clinic has recommended sperm DNA and chromosome testing. It's £1000 and takes over a month to get results. We've decided to let my DH take vitamins and do lifestyle changes for 3 months before having this test. 

I asked the consultant what the point of the test was, as in what would they do if the result was bad. He said he would discuss that with us after. Am I being conned? It seems like there is no point, you ladies above have said your DH results from normal analysis weren't that bad but the fragmentation test came back as high, so what hope does my DH have? Would they refuse to give us treatment in case it lowered there success rate? Why not just skip straight to retrieval direct from the testes instead of going through this expensive test?


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## Briss

*Baby Me*, we are privately with Dr Ramsay who is considered the best urologist in the UK and when I asked about DNA fragmentation test he said in our case there is no need to spend money on that since my DH's morphology is bad we can safely assume DNA fragmentation is not going to be good and is only going to depress us. I think your DH's morphology is not great either so it's unlikely that sperm DNA fragmentation will come as good so why spend the money? we were told to take proxeed and BD often to improve morphology but ultimately it is going to be IMSI. so if I were you I'd rather spend this money on IMSI. I do not think there is anything else out there at the moment that helps pick a good sperm for ICSI.

re retrieval direct from the testes, it's not always necessary. one IVF clinic suggested that we should do it but dr Ramsay after examining my DH said it's not going to be helpful at all and there is a very limited number of cases like azoospermia where he performs this procedure. So definitely get advice from a good urologist before doing this very invasive procedure.


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