# Beware of the BG warranty!



## Misskitty

I posted yesterday about a problem with the elastic in some of my Flip nappies (bought cheaply from BG at the Baby Show). Anyway I was very careful to stick to their washing guidelines ( i use Ecover non-bio as it's pretty much the only one i could find that doesn't contain optical brighners etc) and occasionally a tiny bit of Bio D biodegradable nappy sanitiser.

Anyway they have come back to me saying it's my fault and (I quote) 'We tell all our clients not to use Ecover or sanitiser' Really?? Funny this doesn't appear anywhere on their website, obviously they forgot to tell me! I was then told if i want to get rid of germs on the nappies i should use bleach! Their washing details specifically say not to use bleach (among other things) or the warranty will be void!

I am beyond angry.....


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## sugarpuff

cheeky buggers... you should ask them what brand of detergent that they _do_ recommend in the uk


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## Rachel_C

Is it the people at Baba Me saying this? That's awful!


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## Misskitty

sugarpuff said:


> cheeky buggers... you should ask them what brand of detergent that they _do_ recommend in the uk

I've asked that several times, and they keep avioding the question!


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## Misskitty

Rachel_C said:


> Is it the people at Baba Me saying this? That's awful!

Yes it's the Babame people. I think i'll have to contact Trading standards. It's fair enough if what i used did do the damage, but as far as i'm concerned i've met the warranty conditions as listed on their website. They just seem to be making up extra bits as they go along!


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## Rachel_C

This is from the official Flip website:



> How do I wash my new diapers?
> Use: Do not use rash creams.
> Dirty Storage: Store in dry pail/bin.
> Wash: Use laundry tabs if available. Pre-wash cold. Wash hot (100F/40C) with bumGenius detergent. Extra rinse. No laundry additives. Line dry cover. Tumble dry insert. No fabric softeners. Use ¼ cup or 60 mL bleach in the hot wash once per month.
> 
> What detergent can I use?
> You should only use detergents that are free of dyes, enzymes, perfumes, whiteners and brighteners. Using detergents containing these ingredients will cause damage to your diaper including elastic failure and leaking. Free shipping is available on cloth diaper safe detergents here using coupon code "GOODWASH".

So basically, you can only use the BG washing powder?! That's crap and they must know that normal people won't do that, which makes their "warranty" a load of rubbish. I thought cloth nappy retailers were supposed to be making cloth look easy and normal i.e. use normal, readily available washing powder. They sell you stuff knowing that you won't stick to their overly strict terms but they use their warranty as a selling point. Grrr. Very unhappy!


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## Rachel_C

I'm going to email Baba Me and see what washing powder they recommend then! If there isn't one available in the UK that meets their requirements, surely they shouldn't be selling them here?


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## ummar

If a manager or something exists, I would take a complaint to the next level.


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## Rachel_C

ummar said:


> If a manager or something exists, I would take a complaint to the next level.

I think it's more a case of the whole company's warranty is rubbish and they know it can't be used cos nobody will ever follow their overly strict directions. A manager wouldn't be able to change that.

IMO things that are intended for every day use should be washable in normal products, like you wouldn't expect normal baby clothes to have instructions that strict. It's ok for the odd special dress, but normal stuff should have normal washing! I wonder if there's something that can be done with trading standards regarding "items not fit for purpose"?


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## Misskitty

Rachel_C said:


> I'm going to email Baba Me and see what washing powder they recommend then! If there isn't one available in the UK that meets their requirements, surely they shouldn't be selling them here?

Let me know what they tell you. Personally i haven't been able to find a commercially available detergent/powder that doesn't contain 'banned' substances!


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## Rachel_C

I'll let you know if/when I get a reply. If they don't email back, I'll give them a call and see what they say.


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## Misskitty

I've just submitted a complaint to Trading Standards in their area.


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## twiggy56

id be inclined to agree with rach...if its _only_ the BG powder they reccomend to maintain the warranty...id see if its available int he UK.

If not, they shouldnt be selling them here then?!


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## Rachel_C

I had a quick google for their powder in the UK and couldn't find it anywhere.


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## Arcanegirl

Ohh thats very sneaky! Id be annoyed too!


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## nervouspains

Oooh Go Rachel, what your saying is so true! You should do a basic copy email and we will all email them the same sort of message!
BTW, thanks for the tip on the Thirsty Duo- Mine came today :D Using tonight! xx


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## Rachel_C

I'm trying to find out what advice BG/Baba Me gives to other retailers too, maybe they know something we don't. If they have no answer, maybe we'll start a campaign :rofl:

Do you like the Thirsties Duo wrap then? Hope it works for you! I've been meaning to buy another one cos they're so pretty and fit well over all my fitteds.


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## nervouspains

Yes it looks big so will deffo last him a long time! It fitted perfectly over my fitted night nappies :) I hope I have no leaks lol.
Also, tried it with a BG flip insert and a booster and it fits well too then :)


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## nicholatmn

Is that really their warranty?! :( And here I was all excited keeping my receipt for my Flips I just got just in case something happens. 
I tried their detergent once (https://www.cottonbabies.com/product_info.php?products_id=2152) and it did nothing but make me have to rinse the load 4 times after. :(


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## Rachel_C

I have just emailed Cotton Babies to ask what detergent available in the UK is suitable for use on their nappies. I think Baba Me are probably in a difficult position - I would guess that they realise the warranty is not applicable in this country if we can't find a suitable detergent, but it's Cotton Babies making the rules not them. Hopefully CB will reply!

ETA - Oh and I have so far contacted one UK Flip retailer and they don't know of any suitable detergents. I'm going to start emailing other UK retailers and see if they know of anything.


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## LittlePants

That's really shocking, but typically American I think - they like to cover themselves for everything (no offence meant to any US members) because of their litigation culture. Another very good reason for only buying nappies made near you! Rather supports my ethos of only stocking European made nappies (living in Europe myself of course!)

Shame that UK seems to be getting nearly as bad on litigation, thanks to lawyers touting for business on TV!


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## Misskitty

Rachel_C said:


> I have just emailed Cotton Babies to ask what detergent available in the UK is suitable for use on their nappies. I think Baba Me are probably in a difficult position - I would guess that they realise the warranty is not applicable in this country if we can't find a suitable detergent, but it's Cotton Babies making the rules not them. Hopefully CB will reply!
> 
> ETA - Oh and I have so far contacted one UK Flip retailer and they don't know of any suitable detergents. I'm going to start emailing other UK retailers and see if they know of anything.

I did email CB when i first got my Flips, they just came back to me with a list of american detergents :o( Hopefully you get a better response, thanks for helping out:thumbup:


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## Rachel_C

It's very annoying - I have 9 Flip covers and they're all stretched. A new one arrived this morning and the difference is quite big, I'd never realised. If Baba Me/CB won't sort them out, I'm sending my new one back - I'm not spending any more money with them. I know Flips are relatively cheap but IMO, birth-to-potty means 0-2.5years at least, not 10 months and they should be tough enough to wash in normal baby washing powder.


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## Jetters

Rachel_C said:


> It's very annoying - I have 9 Flip covers and they're all stretched. A new one arrived this morning and the difference is quite big, I'd never realised. If Baba Me/CB won't sort them out, I'm sending my new one back - I'm not spending any more money with them. I know Flips are relatively cheap but IMO, birth-to-potty means 0-2.5years at least, not 10 months and they should be tough enough to wash in normal baby washing powder.

agreed!

told you two of mine seemed stretched :dohh: not badly enough not to use them, but noticeable. and they definitely would be much worse if i used them full time.


this is all crazy- what is the point of the warranty :growlmad:


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## Rachel_C

I'm going to wait until Baba Me and Cotton Babies get back to me and if they don't give some good news (e.g. that I'm a numpty and there IS a normal UK detergent that's suitable or that they'll be replacing my elastic free of charge), I think some facebook/blog/nappy forum action is in order. 

I'll also contact trading standards but I doubt there will be much success there. It seems logical that they've been misleading in their advertising because they've advertised a warranty that nobody can comply with the terms of, but I bet they know what they're doing legally and there'll be nothing to get them with :(


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## buttonnose82

well this has just put me off flips!

I have 1 and wanted too get a couple more but after reading this i won't bother


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## Eala

Is this just a problem with Flips, or all BG nappies? I've been holding off buying more nappies lately as I plan on getting a couple of BG prints (probably Organics). But if I'm going to have issues like this later, I'll just not bother...


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## Rachel_C

The elastic on BGs goes too - they even have a 'diaper refresher pack' available on the Cotton Babies website so they know it's an issue. On the V4s, they've specifically made it easy to replace the elastic too. I don't mind that so much; what I mind is that they imply that it will all be fine for at least a year because there's the warranty to fall back on if not, but then make it impossible for you to claim under it grrrrr.


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## Rachel_C

What annoys me most is that Flips, even with dodgy elastic(!), are still our most reliable nappies so it would be cutting off my nose to spite my face to stop using them :(


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## buttonnose82

Do flip wraps work ok over WNNN's? I got one too try but dunno what wrap too use as I find alot of wraps leaks grrrr


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## Rachel_C

Yes they work over WNNNs. We use large WNNNs and they're fine as long as they rise is fully unpoppered but I prefer Econobum wraps cos they seem a little bit stretchier (I think cos they don't have the flaps inside).


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## buttonnose82

are Econobum wraps the 'cheaper' version of flips?


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## Jetters

Yep I've used Flips successfully over medium WNNNs but also found Econobums worked better x


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## Rachel_C

Yeah, Econobums are plain white (you can get them with coloured trim though, which is quite sweet). They're basically just a wrap that you get a prefold with (like a cheaper version of the Flip organic one) but you can buy them without the prefold. They don't have the flaps inside to hold the insert in place but they work find with Flip inserts without. The PUL is thinner - if you put a patterned fitted underneath you can see the outlines of the shapes through it, but they seem to hold up ok and work just as well.


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## buttonnose82

what sites stock them??


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## Rachel_C

I only know of Baba Me that stock the ones with coloured trim but I don't like them very much at the moment! https://www.thenaturalbabyresource.co.uk/cloth-nappies/Econobum

There are a couple of other places that sell the plain white ones though, I think Babipur does.


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## buttonnose82

great ty x


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## Misskitty

Rachel_C said:


> What annoys me most is that Flips, even with dodgy elastic(!), are still our most reliable nappies so it would be cutting off my nose to spite my face to stop using them :(

I know! That's exactly my problem!


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## Jetters

I think a facebook campaign would be VERY popular!


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## Misskitty

I also contacted the Bio-D people as i thought they should be aware that their product was potentially damaging (according to BabaMe). Anyway i got a very polite response very quickly saying they have never had any other complaints or feedback about this, and they asked what evidence Babame had to support this claim. I sent him the email they sent me, and am waiting for a response....


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## lynnikins

i use an econobum wrap ( thanks yas ) over EJs WNNN and it works great isnt big enough to go around Nate in a fully stuffed night nappy but not many are lol


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## Mrs Muffin

Interesting as I have have several Flip wraps that have been retired due to slack elastic.


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## Rachel_C

Well this is interesting. I sent the following email to Baba Me:



> Hi,
> 
> Could you let me know what detergent I can use that won't invalidate the warranty on my Flips please? I have just bought some and I want to get it right.
> 
> Thanks!

They replied with this:



> Hello
> 
> &#8226; Wash at 40 or 60.
> 
> &#8226; Use a small amount of washing powder.(non bio, do not use ecover)
> 
> &#8226; DO NOT USE:
> Fabric Conditioner
> Vinegar
> Bicarbonate of soda
> 
> &#8226; Either line dry or some nappies can be tumbled dried. Always read the nappies label for exact advice on each nappy type. Generally wraps cannot be tumble dried.
> 
> 
> If i can assist with anything else please do not hesitate to contact me.

Does this mean the warranty is valid for me? I have always used Persil Small and Mighty non-bio which contains perfume and optical brighteners but Baba Me said nothing about this and I specifically asked about the warranty. I'm going to email back now!


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## sugarpuff

i think if i needed to claim on the warranty now i'd just lie and say that i use the bumgenius detergent, it's not like they can prove it !


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## Misskitty

Rachel_C said:


> Well this is interesting. I sent the following email to Baba Me:
> 
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Could you let me know what detergent I can use that won't invalidate the warranty on my Flips please? I have just bought some and I want to get it right.
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> They replied with this:
> 
> 
> 
> Hello
> 
>  Wash at 40 or 60.
> 
>  Use a small amount of washing powder.(non bio, do not use ecover)
> 
>  DO NOT USE:
> Fabric Conditioner
> Vinegar
> Bicarbonate of soda
> 
>  Either line dry or some nappies can be tumbled dried. Always read the nappies label for exact advice on each nappy type. Generally wraps cannot be tumble dried.
> 
> 
> If i can assist with anything else please do not hesitate to contact me.Click to expand...
> 
> Does this mean the warranty is valid for me? I have always used Persil Small and Mighty non-bio which contains perfume and optical brighteners but Baba Me said nothing about this and I specifically asked about the warranty. I'm going to email back now!Click to expand...

Interesting, i notice they didn't tell you not to use any sanitiser, whereas they claimed in their emial to me that they told all their clients not to use sanitiser. If they know that ecover etc shouldn't be used it should be detailed in the warranty. It seems like they're making it up as they go along!


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## LittlePants

Would love to know what's the matter with Ecover, but what about using Ecoballs? There's no powder at all involved there. Or are they just trying to promote the use of their own detergent? (If you ca get it anywhere!) 
Sounds a bit like ebays ploy of insisting that sellers offer PayPal as a payment option - ie, it's just to boost their profits!


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## Rachel_C

The BG warranty states that no 'natural soap' can be used; what's in ecoballs? I assume that rules out soap nuts anyway.

I've looked at the ingredients of every detergent I could find in the UK (yes, I'm sad) and found only one that I thought would be suitable and it was actually an ecover one (the Non Biological Original Washing Powder) as it contains no brighteners, no enzymes and no perfumes - it's the perfumes that I've struggled to find a detergent without. 

I had a reply from Cotton Babies this morning. It says that they do not know off hand which detergents are safe in the UK but they are checking and will get back to me. In other words, they have no idea and hadn't even thought to check that people here could wash the nappies!!!


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## Eala

I have to admit that this is really putting me off buying BG... I object to people trying to rip off their buyers!


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## Rachel_C

Me too, if only they didn't work so damn well when they're working!!! If Baba Me are unable/unwilling to replace my Flips, given that I have followed the instructions they gave me for them, I won't be buying anything more from Cotton Babies. I will keep using my Flip stay dry inserts but I'll replace the outers with Thirsties Duo wraps, which work really well with them and are cheaper (although they come in 2 sizes). I guess I could replace the elastic in my Flips but I won't be spending any more money with them.


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## Dopeyjopey

This is shocking! Has anyone contacted BG directly?


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## pinkie77

Argh! I ordered a daypack of flips and they've just come - not sure whether to keep them or send them back now :dohh:


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## Rachel_C

Cotton Babies is the manufacturer of Flips, bumGenius and Econobum nappies. I emailed them and they're looking into what detergents are suitable over here. Baba Me gave some advice that didn't rule out normal detergents (just biological ones and Ecover) so I've emailed to ask if they'll honour the warranty as I've used Persil non-bio. I'll keep you updated!


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## Rachel_C

pinkie77 said:


> Argh! I ordered a daypack of flips and they've just come - not sure whether to keep them or send them back now :dohh:

Honestly, if they can come back with a suitable detergent and you can use that, or if Baba Me will apply the warranty unless you use Ecover or biological detergent, I would keep them. Even though the elastic in ours needs replacing, they're still bloody good nappies!


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## Lliena

Hmm so you cant use soapnuts with them? I thought something natural like soapnuts would work as theres nothing in them to wear the elastic down etc? Or am I missing something? :shrug:


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## Rachel_C

I think the reality of the situation is that cloth nappy manufacturers don't have a constant stream of income from you cos once you've bought your stash you don't have to buy again (well in the case of relatively boring ones like BGs anyway!), so Cotton Babies made their warranty so specific that you'd have to buy their detergent, ensuring that you're always having to buy something from them! If you're not buying their detergent, they're not making any more money from you so they won't want to fix your nappies for free if they go wrong. 

I don't think there's anything harmful in soapnuts or most detergents (after all, so many clothes have elastic or poppers on them and they don't seem to get damaged) but BG just want you to buy their stuff.


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## Lliena

Ah ok I see :D Still naughty of them with what they said regards the warranty though!


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## Rachel_C

Yep! I'm waiting to see what Baba Me come back to me with though. They may have realised the situation and allow us to use normal detergents, I don't know but I hope so!


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## mandarhino

If that is the Cotton Babies reasoning I suspect they'd fall afoul of the Unfair Commercial Practices Directive. I'm sure there's something in there about reasonableness of warranties. Someone has contacted Trading Standards haven't they? They'll be able to say for sure.


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## Rachel_C

That is interesting, I didn't know such a thing existed. I'll see what Baba Me say and then contact trading standards if they're not reasonable.


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## mandarhino

Hmm ok have had a quick browse through first half of this
https://www.oft.gov.uk/shared_oft/business_leaflets/cpregs/oft1008.pdf

May fall under misleading omissions. TS will be able to give a more informed view though. I'm semi familiar with these regulations as a result of my work but haven't had to apply them in any detail.

Suspect these regulations go further that what they have in US. But Cotton Bums would need a warranty that complies with UK law if they're selling over here.


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## Rachel_C

I had a quick look and it looks like it should apply if Baba Me aren't going to replace/repair nappies even though they technically are out of warranty. Hopefully they'll be decent about it.


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## Misskitty

I emailed cottonbabies direct with my complaint, but i've not had a reply so far. I also emailed Trading Standards in NI where BabaMe are based, but again no reply so far.


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## Rachel_C

I've had another reply from Baba Me (I asked if I can send my covers back to be repaired as I had followed their washing instructions) and this is their reply:



> When the elastic goes immediately or very quickly, it is a manufacturing issue.
> 
> When elastic gradually begins to slacken over time, this is a washing and useage issue. Normally this is caused by too much washing powder which breaks down the elastic. If you have 9 which have gradually got worse, clearly there is an issue with your washing routine.
> 
> Where did you buy your flips from?

I've now asked what they think the issue is, given that I have always followed the instructions they sent me in the previous email. When I first contacted them, I said how I'd just bought a cover so wanted washing instructions. They didn't know then that I already have some dodgy ones. Clearly when they think you're asking about new ones, they are happy to give you one set of directions, but when they know you want a repair/replacement they change their tune - not fair!


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## Jetters

CLEARLY there is an issue. Cheeky gits!


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## DueMarch2nd

oooh cheeky cheeky!


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## Rachel_C

If they reply, I will respond telling them that I have other nappies that have had just as much use and are still going strong, so perhaps it IS their issue and I want a repair/replacement. If the nappies can't stand up to less than a year of normal nappy washing, there is definitely something wrong with them, and the fact that the warranty is for a year suggests that the elastic should last at LEAST a year!


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## LittlePants

Rachel_C said:


> The BG warranty states that no 'natural soap' can be used; what's in ecoballs? I assume that rules out soap nuts anyway.
> 
> I've looked at the ingredients of every detergent I could find in the UK (yes, I'm sad) and found only one that I thought would be suitable and it was actually an ecover one (the Non Biological Original Washing Powder) as it contains no brighteners, no enzymes and no perfumes - it's the perfumes that I've struggled to find a detergent without.
> 
> I had a reply from Cotton Babies this morning. It says that they do not know off hand which detergents are safe in the UK but they are checking and will get back to me. In other words, they have no idea and hadn't even thought to check that people here could wash the nappies!!!

There's no soap at all in Ecoballs. They have some little granules inside which do not dissolve, but work by raising the alkalinity of the water, and this cleans, together with a pummeling action. You don't even need to rinse when you have washed with ecoballs.


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## Aunty E

Has anyone tried replacing the elastic? I know this isn't an ideal solution, but I've done it on a few of my preloved nappies and it wasn't a total nightmare, but I'm a pretty experienced seamstress. I've never used a flip, so I don't really know what they look like, but in my sandys I just laid on a bit more elastic on the outside, just by stretching it out and stitching it on, so it gathered when released. Bit like Shirring if you've done any sewing.


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## Dopeyjopey

Aunty E said:


> Has anyone tried replacing the elastic? I know this isn't an ideal solution, but I've done it on a few of my preloved nappies and it wasn't a total nightmare, but I'm a pretty experienced seamstress. I've never used a flip, so I don't really know what they look like, but in my sandys I just laid on a bit more elastic on the outside, just by stretching it out and stitching it on, so it gathered when released. Bit like Shirring if you've done any sewing.

What's sewing? ;)

Haha tbh if i attempted it i'd mess it up big time as i can't use a needle to save my life, let alone my nappies. I don't understand why they just don't use a better quality elastic. Other nappy elastic seems to last much longer :shrug:


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## Rachel_C

I'm half way through replacing the elastic in one of my flips. It's not hard but for me that's not the point. The BG warranty is supposed to cover elastic for a year, yet Baba Me are now saying that if it goes straight away it's a manufacturing issue but after that it's the customer's fault. So why include it in the warranty if they're going to say it's your own fault anyway?! It's misleading and unfair. 

If they don't do anything about it, I will replace all the elastic but I don't see why I should have to if they're supposed to cover it! If they don't sort it, I won't be buying any more Cotton Babies nappies. I was fully prepared to buy a full set of smalls for if we have another baby and probably some prints, but I will spend my money elsewhere.


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## Misskitty

Rachel_C said:


> I'm half way through replacing the elastic in one of my flips. It's not hard but for me that's not the point. The BG warranty is supposed to cover elastic for a year, yet Baba Me are now saying that if it goes straight away it's a manufacturing issue but after that it's the customer's fault. So why include it in the warranty if they're going to say it's your own fault anyway?! It's misleading and unfair.
> 
> If they don't do anything about it, I will replace all the elastic but I don't see why I should have to if they're supposed to cover it! If they don't sort it, I won't be buying any more Cotton Babies nappies. I was fully prepared to buy a full set of smalls for if we have another baby and probably some prints, but I will spend my money elsewhere.

How do you replace the elastic? I've found lots of instructions for replacing elastic in the other BumGenius nappies, is it just the same? Also what type/size elastic are you using? Think i'll have to give this a go myself if i don't get any joy from trading standards or cottonbabies.


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## Rachel_C

I opened it up where you can feel the end of the elastic - I just undid a few stitches and then rooted around for the end of the elastic. Then I sewed the new elastic roughly onto it then cut the old stuff off, then used the old stuff to pull the new stuff through the channel and then sewed both ends in place. Then I'll sew up the seam I undid, not done that yet as I want to get the right colour thread. You need polyester thread not cotton, as cotton wicks, although for that few stitches it probably wouldn't. 

I got the same size elastic from ebay (it was £2.50 posted for 10 metres) - it's 6mm wide and has eight cords in it, which is the same as the original stuff. This - https://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=250301398586 is the exact stuff I got and it arrived within 2 days.


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## DueMarch2nd

Rachel_C I may employ you to re-elasticate my flips in the future since you are my nappy nurse :haha: But for that, I would pay more than postage! But tbh at the moment, i do notice it's stretched but it hasn't caused any performance issues. Not that that is the point! I think all this is shocking of BG! BG thinks they are god's gift to cloth nappies and they really and truly are NOT! :rolleyes: They think we sit with bated breath at every disappointing new *release* they have and after the v4 release, I am not the only one that just doesnt give a hoot anymore BG! We like the performance of your nappies but I can get better looking and better QUALITY products elsewhere thank you! *steps off soap box*

Rach, all you gotta do is just have a full stash of teeny fits when you get pregnant... such a shame! :haha: and if tesco dont carry them, just ask them and TB and maybe they will before the baby is born! :haha:


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## lynnikins

i must say this has put a hold on me buying any more enconobums wraps or any flips i wanted to see how well BG Organics AIO's would work for me with EJ but untill we get an answer here then im gonna hold onto my money


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## debbie87

I have had the exact same reply from Baba Me ('we tell all our clients not to use Ecover'). has any one seen exactly where this is stated??! Because I can't see it anywhere, and certainly wasn't told when I purchased them!!

My nappies have been leaking from the leg, but not OUT of the leg, more like through the stitching?? So I don't think mine is even an elastic issue.

Really annoyed!!


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## DueMarch2nd

thats called wicking debbie87, have you tried changing the nappy more often hun? Most nappies do that if they get too full x


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## debbie87

My boy only lasts about 2 hours with a Flip stay-dry insert before it's completely drenched! When I was looking at why I might be getting leaks, I followed the advice on the Cotton Babies website about using extra absorbency, which helps on the 'wee' side of things, but tbh, my nappies mainly leak when he's had a poop! He's not yet weaned and completely breastfed, so it's pretty runny stuff!!

Thinking I might have detergent build up, so gonna do a strip wash. Do you think that will help?


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## DueMarch2nd

yeah that will help if its a detergent build up since the nappies need to be absorbant enough for poo in those pre weaning BF days :haha: The covers dont need strip washing as they arent absorbant so there is no where for the detergent to build up iykwim.

But do you mean the poo is kinda wicking at the legs or are you sure its definitely not coming out at the legs? It could be an issue with the elastic in the legs not being tight enough (due to slack elastic or *possibly* not done up tight enough)


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## Rachel_C

I've just had an interesting reply from Cotton Babies. They have spoken with Baba Me who have told them that any non-bio detergent with the exception of Ecover is fine in the UK. Apparently Ecover does not wash out properly and causes repelling.

Soooo, I've emailed back and asked whether the elastic is covered under warranty for a year, or is it blamed on the customer unless it goes immediately (as Baba Me have now said!).

debbie87, if what they say is true about Ecover, no I was never told it when I bought Flips and it was not on their website (although I know Baba Me is redoing their site so I wouldn't be surprised if they added it now. I've just looked on their current site and the only advice is what they emailed to me but it doesn't specifically say non-bio and it definitely does not say no Ecover, although the only advice they give is under 'Flat Nappies' so you may be able to claim that you weren't told that. I recently bought a Flip cover from Cheeks and Cherries and it didn't even have any packacking, definitely nothing about Ecover! If what Cotton Babies said about repelling is true, I would try using different inserts in your Flips and see if you still have the same problem. If the insert is repelling, the wee would try to get out by the legs and if the elastic is still good, it may be forced out through the stitching. While using different inserts, I would do a thorough strip of your inserts using a different detergent (use a full dose of detergent on a 60 degree wash and then rinse rinse rinse until no more bubbles come out - I don't think the dishwasher tablet method would be thorough enough.) You could also see if they're repelling by pouring some water on an insert and see what happens!


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## Misskitty

Rachel_C said:


> I've just had an interesting reply from Cotton Babies. They have spoken with Baba Me who have told them that any non-bio detergent with the exception of Ecover is fine in the UK. Apparently Ecover does not wash out properly and causes repelling.
> 
> So their warranty really means nothing then as the majority of other non-bios include optical brightners, whiteners and all the other 'banned' substances!


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## Rachel_C

I think they might be more particular about applying the terms of the warranty in the US, not sure though!


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## debbie87

huh my reply seems to have gone awol...

anyway I just said it definitely does come through the seam at the leg/bum because very often the actual cuff is clean, it's just that the poop has seeped through the stiching and started travelling across the outer of the wrap!!

I have done a strip wash so we will see if that helps (currently drying on every radiator!)

I have found babame so unhelpful, when I emailed asking for advice re the above, she just blamed Ecover and that was it! When I went to reply using their system the status of the case was 'closed'!! 

I have replied now anyway and said I don't think Ecover is at fault as my leg elastic is still intact and gives a secure fit.


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## Rachel_C

Even if Ecover is the worst detergent for nappies in the history of the world, a thorough strip wash should sort that problem, if it really is the problem! I can't see how they can blame Ecover if it's anything other than an insert issue either - if, as they say, the problem is that it doesn't wash out, only the insert would be affected anyway not the outer.

I can't remember if I posted what Baba Me have said most recently. They first said that my washing routine was fine (when they didn't know I wanted a repair/replacement!) and then when I said I have some dodgy covers, they said it must be a problem with my washing or use of the Flips! So I asked them what they thought the issue is, seeing as I have followed their instructions to the letter. They ignored that and said that the shop I originally bought them from would be happy to help me. I've spoken to the lady where I bought them and she doesn't know what that means - whether they'll accept a return from her so she can replace mine or not. I don't want her to end up out of pocket! So she's contacting Baba Me by phone and will let me know asap.


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## dougie

Rachel_C said:


> Even if Ecover is the worst detergent for nappies in the history of the world, a thorough strip wash should sort that problem, if it really is the problem! I can't see how they can blame Ecover if it's anything other than an insert issue either - if, as they say, the problem is that it doesn't wash out, only the insert would be affected anyway not the outer.
> 
> I can't remember if I posted what Baba Me have said most recently. They first said that my washing routine was fine (when they didn't know I wanted a repair/replacement!) and then when I said I have some dodgy covers, they said it must be a problem with my washing or use of the Flips! So I asked them what they thought the issue is, seeing as I have followed their instructions to the letter. They ignored that and said that the shop I originally bought them from would be happy to help me. I've spoken to the lady where I bought them and she doesn't know what that means - whether they'll accept a return from her so she can replace mine or not. I don't want her to end up out of pocket! So she's contacting Baba Me by phone and will let me know asap.

Was it Laura at FYP you spoke to? I went to see her today and I mentioned to her about the dodgy warranty and she said she had had an email. She said she was ringing them this afternoon :) 

The warranty really does sound dodgy though, I hope all you ladies get sorted out. I think I've been really lucky, I've had a dead Itti and a dead Real Easy and both have been replaced (by the respective companies)


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## Rachel_C

Yes it was Laura, she's really nice. She spoke to Baba Me today and this is what they said:

The slack elastic in my Flips is NOT a warranty issue, it is a usage issue (even though they won't tell me what I've supposedly done wrong!). "They said that the use of too much detergent, vinegar, bicarb, essential oils etc. can rot away at the elastic, and that where an elastic problem does not develop right away it is very clearly a useage issue." So I won't be getting a repair/replacement. They also said that the use of any non-bio is fine apart from Ecover, but that even using Ecover doesn't void the warranty per se, so I think they mean that if the elastic goes quickly and you've used Ecover, they'll still cover it, unless of course they try to blame it on you which I think is likely!

I'm going to start a Facebook page this evening. I'd be grateful if anybody on here who is also disappointed in their response would also join and spread the word... I'll let you know when it's up.


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## dougie

How long do they expect a flip wrap to last?
They are BTP so I would expect them to be good for 3 years! I would definitely have words if they weren't serving their purpose before then. They aren't giving the greatest customer service either which is losing them customers.


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## Eala

That's an appalling response Rachel! 

Makes me doubly glad that I've decided not to give any of my money to BG, if that's how they are going to treat customers! :growlmad:


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## Lliena

They do sell replacement elastic kits too so it seems to be that they might realise the elastics wont last but arent prepared to offer replacepment nappies/wraps if you have them a long time, when they offer this kit. However if you had 25 nappies it had happened too and the kits are £1 each, that would be another £25 to fork out on top of the nappies that are supposed to last 3 years?! This is assuming you are a competant enough sewer to be able to do that in the first place! Why should the customer have to fork out for the repair? Very bad customer service indeed!


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## Rachel_C

Interesting, I've just had an email from somebody else at Baba Me. She said that although they still feel it is a washing issue, they never said they wouldn't replace them and to contact her directly to sort it out. She said that she wants to get to the bottom of it to prevent it happening in future, but I really can't see that I've done anything wrong - 1/4 recommended dose of Persil non-bio with nothing else added, then line dried. Confused here!


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## buttonnose82

Rachel_C said:


> Interesting, I've just had an email from somebody else at Baba Me. She said that although they still feel it is a washing issue, they never said they wouldn't replace them and to contact her directly to sort it out. She said that she wants to get to the bottom of it to prevent it happening in future, but I really can't see that I've done anything wrong - 1/4 recommended dose of Persil non-bio with nothing else added, then line dried. Confused here!

sounds like they are 'feeling the heat' maybe they got someone on here thats seen that you said about making a facebook page lol

seems strange for them too say 'your wrong however we will still replace them'


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## Rachel_C

I think I have Laura at Fill Your Pants to thank!


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## Dopeyjopey

Sounds like they know legally they have to replace them. If it is a year warranty but they'll only replace if the elastic goes straight away i'm pretty sure that's against the law :shrug:


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## Rachel_C

I think I've changed my opinion of Baba Me! The new lady I'm emailing is really lovely and has apologised for the hassle. She actually has some really good suggestions too. I mentioned that my washing machine is fairly new and she said that might be the problem, as newer machines use less water. I do a superwash which is supposed to use more water, but maybe it's still not enough. She also suggested putting a wet towel in with the washing to increase the amount of water in the spin cycle, not just the rinse cycle. She has also reiterated that normally if there are any issues within a year of purchases, they treat it as a manufacturing issue. I'm still not convinced that it is my machine but they're going to replace them anyway.


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## Jetters

GREAT news that they are going to replace them, even though indirectly they've still implied you've done something wrong.


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