# Raising a child gender neutral, would you?



## MummyJen

I was reading an article in this weeks Grazia magazine (UK) and there did a story with a lady who is raising her child as gender neutral. The child is 18 months old and she has only told close family and friends (mainly people who have changed the baby's nappy) what gender the child is. She has given the child a double gender name and dresses the child in both boys and girls clothing. She lets the child play with whatever toys it wants too. When people ask her what gender her child is she says she doesn't want to say. She says that she is doing this as she doesn't what her child restricted to the sterotypes that each gender bring e.g girls have pink rooms and play with dolls while boys have blue rooms and play with toy trucks. She also wants her child to be able to do whatever it wants and not restricted because of gender. A expect said that there is no such thing as being gender netural and that the child is more and likely going to have an odd sense of idenity as it grows older. However they said that children should be pushed to be allowed to do what they want, just not this way. The mother called it a social experiment, not experimenting with the child but society.

What are your views?

I think it is very over the top and completely the wrong was to go about this type of thing. I will allow my child to play with whatever toy he/she wants to and to wear whatever he/she chooses. Whatever career baby bean whats to go into I will support that. That said if I have a girl or a boy I will dress them appropritely and colour code things. However if I had a boy and he wanted to play with a doll then I would let him. It is all about learning and developing. However I think she is taking it too far. I actually feel a bit sorry for the child as she is obviously (even though she says that she is not) using her child as a gunina pig for her own experiment.


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## Cheryl xx

I think it may be confusing for the child as it gets older. I do agree with letting children express themselves and play with whichever toy they like. However i think this is over the top xx


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## stephwiggy

Oooh interesting but not for me. I'm quite chilled about my son he wanted a baby n buggy for his bithday when he was 2 so that's what he got, and he loved it, I got some odd comments but he was happy so I was happy.


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## amym

I'm not keen - as a proud feminist I believe that gender is essential to our identities - not that we should restrict girls to pink and boys to blue, or job roles etc, but how can you grow to be a proud woman if you can't be a proud girl?


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## Sophist

I think its ridiculous, not to mention unethical to experiment with a child in that way. (She can claim its a "societal" experiment, but there is ONE person who will be affected the most, her child.) I believe gender is a very important part of a person's identity.

As for my own kids--we've never dressed them in a gender neutral way (daughter may wear blue, but you can certainly tell she's a girl!) but they have been free to play with and participate in the activities that appeal to them. I bought dolls for my son and basketballs for my daughter, etc. Mom & Dad both clean & cook, fix things, work in the yard...both DH and I have had times when we were a SAH parent and times when we worked outside the home.

I have seen clearly with my children there are some innate differences. It's amazing seeing my son have a male teacher at school for the first time this year how differently he reacts and relates there. They've both been encouraged to have friends from each gender, but they definitely identify with friends of their same gender right now. They also identify strongly with their same-gendered grandparents.


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## sequeena

Completely confusing and unfair to the child :wacko:


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## shocker

I read this article and was wondering if anyone would start a thread on it, I think it's ridiculous! And also incredibly cruel and confusing to treat a child as some 'experiment' I have two friends who are raising gender neutral children and I've seen first hand how it's affected them, they also won't let the children play with toys that aren't made from naturally occuring resources (eg only wooden toys and gifts that don't agree with this ethos are given back) they also raised the youngest without nappies. It's total madness!


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## emmalouise079

shocker said:


> I read this article and was wondering if anyone would start a thread on it, I think it's ridiculous! And also incredibly cruel and confusing to treat a child as some 'experiment' I have two friends who are raising gender neutral children and I've seen first hand how it's affected them, they also won't let the children play with toys that aren't made from naturally occuring resources (eg only wooden toys and gifts that don't agree with this ethos are given back) they also raised the youngest without nappies. It's total madness!

How on earth do you raise a baby without some form of nappy?! :S


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## Soos

weird and cruel. This women is lost in her imaginary theories, there is something wrong with her imo...


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## kiwimama

emmalouise079 said:


> shocker said:
> 
> 
> I read this article and was wondering if anyone would start a thread on it, I think it's ridiculous! And also incredibly cruel and confusing to treat a child as some 'experiment' I have two friends who are raising gender neutral children and I've seen first hand how it's affected them, they also won't let the children play with toys that aren't made from naturally occuring resources (eg only wooden toys and gifts that don't agree with this ethos are given back) they also raised the youngest without nappies. It's total madness!
> 
> How on earth do you raise a baby without some form of nappy?! :SClick to expand...

It's called elimination communication and I wouldn't call it madness. It's actually a very good way to bond with your baby. All babies show some sort of sign before they wee or poo, once you know what your babys signs are you can take them to the toilet and hold them over it. :thumbup:


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## kiwimama

As for raising a child gender neutral. I don't agree with it really. I am all for letting a child play with what they please, wear what they want and become anything they want regardless of gender. But gender plays a huge part in who we are, I can imagine having that stifled from an early age would cause some serious problems later in life. :nope:


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## Dukechick

I think that's gross, and would never do it.


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## flubdub

kiwimama said:


> emmalouise079 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> shocker said:
> 
> 
> I read this article and was wondering if anyone would start a thread on it, I think it's ridiculous! And also incredibly cruel and confusing to treat a child as some 'experiment' I have two friends who are raising gender neutral children and I've seen first hand how it's affected them, they also won't let the children play with toys that aren't made from naturally occuring resources (eg only wooden toys and gifts that don't agree with this ethos are given back) they also raised the youngest without nappies. It's total madness!
> 
> How on earth do you raise a baby without some form of nappy?! :SClick to expand...
> 
> It's called elimination communication and I wouldn't call it madness. It's actually a very good way to bond with your baby. All babies show some sort of sign before they wee or poo, once you know what your babys signs are you can take them to the toilet and hold them over it. :thumbup:Click to expand...

WHAT??!
How on earth??
Even at night?


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## b23

Surely this will just confuse the child? Won't other children grow up with a sense of their own identity (of which our gender is a part) whereas this child will be confused when he/she sees other children at school etc as boys and girls, instead of gender neutral children? The danger is that this child could feel very isolated and unsure of who they are.


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## babyblog

I think it is fine to not want your child to sterotype your child, ie nbot always dressing girls in pink etc but i think it is a little over the top to not tell people the gender when they ask! When the child goes to school, it may not know what it is! and how confusing would that be?

I'm all for letting them do what they want, most boys go through stages of wanting to play with dolls and prams, and i would never stop my LO from doing so-but when they get to school they'll want to fit in and will generally have friends of the same sex (tho my best friend for 11 years was a boy from day 1 of school).

I too have heard of elimination communication-i watched a programme on it once-when the LO gave the sign his mum took him outside and he weed in the bushes. But i don't understand how it works at night, unless you sit up the entire night watching them and don't sleep!


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## Mizze

Okay - so I get the basic idea of not stereotyping your child so that boys only want to play with blue or red fire trucks or action man, and the idea that all girls love Pink and Barbie really pisses me off. But really??! As others have pointed out the Mother might delude herself that "society" is the one having an experiment performed on it but "society" couldnt give a toss and wont be aware. That poor child is the one who WILL be aware and as s/he gets older will become more and more so. 

I know im having a girl and have a few pink bits for her but I also have lots of other colours and will have no problem in sticking her in a blue babygrow (inherited from my sister's boy) if need be. She will play with whatever toys she shows most aptitude for - and her Dad cant wait to get her a Bob the builder set (family in-joke) but if she does turn out a bit like me and likes handbag, shoes and the colour pink then fine. If she doesnt also fine. And im damn sure she will be brought up to know she can go into whatever profession/job she wants regardless of her gender. But she will wear dresses as well as jeans and pink as well as every other colour including blue that I can get her to wear until and unless she tells me otherwise. Its a bit creepy actually to me that the Mother seems to want to *avoid* the child finding its own identity by ignoring its gender when she professes to the opposite. Obviously im going on this thread as a guide not having read the article myself yet. 

Mizze xx


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## lozzy21

Poor child. Growing up is confusing enough with out that being added to it.


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## Phinners

Seems a bit odd. Theres certainly nothing wrong in encouraging a child to play with both the traditional boy and girl stuff, they are just fun toys afterall - my son certainly did, he shoved his baby around in a buggy for 2 years, played in the home corner, had pink clothes etc as well as traditional boys stuff. But he is a boy, and we all know it.


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## Rose_bud

My SIL did this with her 1st, a son, she practically forced him to play with dolls just to show how gender neutral he was. He now has counciling and gets constantly bullied at school. He's 10. With her 2nd and 3rd, a boy then a girl, she ignored the boy and he likes all things boyish, and then she completely encouraged her daughter to embrace all things girly. I think she just wanted a girl all along.
I read somewhere that no matter what you do a child will tend to lean towards gender specific toys, I guess it's an instinct thing. 
Personally my daughter wears jeans and plays with cars and mud somedays, then the next day she puts on her best princess outfit and plays with her dolls. I don't really mind as long as she's happy. I'll never push my personal choice on her, I think that kids just end up rebelling.


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## emilyjean

I just don't think it's possible to raise a child gender neutral. IMO male and female brains are different, both are equally intelligent but they just work in different ways. I can see this blowing up in the parents faces once the kid starts school.


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## mumoffive

All i can say is, what a sad world we live in. I am totally against it. As for the nappy thing!! Its completely ridiculous. What is the point..young babies have absoluetly no understanding of what they are doing!! Its is just the most insane thing i have heard. They wont even remember it!! A complete nonsense.


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## Justagirlxx

I think its ridiculous and I'm sure the child is going to be extremely confused as it grows up. Poor kid. 

Also I dont understand the point of the nappy thing as infants have no control over bowel movements. It just creates more work for the mother. Maybe the mom can be proud she knows when her baby is going to poop/pee but the infant isn't going to understand either way whats going on. What is the point besides more sleep deprivation for moms?


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## Sophist

Rose_bud said:


> My SIL did this with her 1st, a son, she practically forced him to play with dolls just to show how gender neutral he was. He now has counciling and gets constantly bullied at school. He's 10. With her 2nd and 3rd, a boy then a girl, she ignored the boy and he likes all things boyish, and then she completely encouraged her daughter to embrace all things girly. I think she just wanted a girl all along.
> *I read somewhere that no matter what you do a child will tend to lean towards gender specific toys, I guess it's an instinct thing. *
> Personally my daughter wears jeans and plays with cars and mud somedays, then the next day she puts on her best princess outfit and plays with her dolls. I don't really mind as long as she's happy. I'll never push my personal choice on her, I think that kids just end up rebelling.


OR...boys will play with dolls by ripping their heads off and throwing them against the wall. Girls will play with trucks by finding a boy truck and a girl truck, marrying them, and then getting a smaller truck to be the baby.

Or so my Personality Psychology professor said.


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## debsbaby

This is ludicrous. 

How many mothers will ever feel that their children can befriend this child? How will this interfere with the child's ability to make friends?

When I had my son, my daughter was 2. For the longest time, we had very few "boy toys" at home, but the ones we had (balls, trucks, etc) he gravitated to from just 6 or 7 months old. HE knew what he wanted and how I dressed him or what I called him didn't interfere with that. Sure, he would cuddle one of his sister's baby dolls on occasion, but it was never in the total nurturing way she did at the same age...it was more imitating her. 

This is going to be very confusing for the child and very confusing for the people who would like to interact with her/him. How do you tell YOUR child to "go play with...uh herrrr...immm, uh, the kid over there with the blocks".

Bad idea.


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## babyblog

Sophist said:


> Rose_bud said:
> 
> 
> My SIL did this with her 1st, a son, she practically forced him to play with dolls just to show how gender neutral he was. He now has counciling and gets constantly bullied at school. He's 10. With her 2nd and 3rd, a boy then a girl, she ignored the boy and he likes all things boyish, and then she completely encouraged her daughter to embrace all things girly. I think she just wanted a girl all along.
> *I read somewhere that no matter what you do a child will tend to lean towards gender specific toys, I guess it's an instinct thing. *
> Personally my daughter wears jeans and plays with cars and mud somedays, then the next day she puts on her best princess outfit and plays with her dolls. I don't really mind as long as she's happy. I'll never push my personal choice on her, I think that kids just end up rebelling.
> 
> 
> OR...boys will play with dolls by ripping their heads off and throwing them against the wall. Girls will play with trucks by finding a boy truck and a girl truck, marrying them, and then getting a smaller truck to be the baby.
> 
> Or so my Personality Psychology professor said.Click to expand...

That's so sweet!


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## Blue_bumpkin

She can disclose the girls/boys sex and still have her/him be 'gender neutral'.

A childs gender is on the whole their sex, its biology. biology is not defined by the toys they play with or the colour they wear. Unless the woman can alter her child chromosomes then she is fighting a losing battle. The child will remain being a male or female. they will never be completely gender neutral so i dont see the point in taking it that far :shrug:

As for elimination communication, not for me personally but know others that do. each to their own, i use cloth nappies which is ridiculous to some people.

:flower:


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## xprincessx

this is ridiculous and can't work forever. That child will go to school and learn boys have penis's and girls have vagina's and will tell people the sex they are anyway! :dohh:


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## gemabee

i feel so sorry for this child...
there are 2 different sexes for a reason... she should be lettin her child be a boy / girl... AND encouragin her child to play with whatever toys she wants... nd then support her child if they have a gender disorder (which is highly unlikely but possible!).
this poor child is gonna end up more messed up than their mother blatantly is.
gah this story makes me angry!


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## ShanandBoc

We are born male or female, why would you try and deny that?

Madness imo

Blue, pink, dolls, trucks, that doesnt matter but a child is either a little girl or a boy, no matter what you cant escape it???


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## happigail

Sophist said:


> Rose_bud said:
> 
> 
> My SIL did this with her 1st, a son, she practically forced him to play with dolls just to show how gender neutral he was. He now has counciling and gets constantly bullied at school. He's 10. With her 2nd and 3rd, a boy then a girl, she ignored the boy and he likes all things boyish, and then she completely encouraged her daughter to embrace all things girly. I think she just wanted a girl all along.
> *I read somewhere that no matter what you do a child will tend to lean towards gender specific toys, I guess it's an instinct thing. *
> Personally my daughter wears jeans and plays with cars and mud somedays, then the next day she puts on her best princess outfit and plays with her dolls. I don't really mind as long as she's happy. I'll never push my personal choice on her, I think that kids just end up rebelling.
> 
> 
> OR...boys will play with dolls by ripping their heads off and throwing them against the wall. Girls will play with trucks by finding a boy truck and a girl truck, marrying them, and then getting a smaller truck to be the baby.
> 
> Or so my Personality Psychology professor said.Click to expand...

hot dog! that is so true and cute!


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## MissMegs2

It sounds to me like this lady has severe mental problems.


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## leeanne

Oh my goodness! I find this ridiculous.

Let me tell you a little story. When I was in high school I worked in a woman's clothing store. This guy would come in carrying a woman's purse and wearing some other woman's attire, and browse through the woman's clothes...for himself. Now the word has it that his parents so wanted a girl that he started to dress and act like a girl. 

Perhaps a bit unrelated but the moral is there.


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## Pixoletta

https://www.thelocal.se/20232/20090623/


is this the article?


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## secretbaby

Gender nuetral? completely mad idea....we are male or we are female (even children who have that rare condition where they could be either male or female choose - or there parents do a gender).

My son had a kitchen and I would let him play with dolls and buggies (he is going to have to cook for himself when he is older and I hope be hands on with his children). BUT he loves blue - his choice never forced on him.

My friend was INSISTENT - her daughter would never have barbie or pink dresses, her daugther choose a barbie and loves pink fluff, frills and high school musical! she choose her own things.. her own identity (and to be fair on my friend although it nearly killed her she did buy her daughter a barbie etc..).

Surely you can bring a child up male or female without falling into the stereo types BUT let them choose what they want... if a boy wants blue then why not? 

I can see the 'experiment' child being very confused when they are older.


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## kiwimama

Justagirlxx said:


> I think its ridiculous and I'm sure the child is going to be extremely confused as it grows up. Poor kid.
> 
> Also I dont understand the point of the nappy thing as infants have no control over bowel movements. It just creates more work for the mother. Maybe the mom can be proud she knows when her baby is going to poop/pee but the infant isn't going to understand either way whats going on. *What is the point besides more sleep deprivation for moms?*

Environmental factors? Not putting chemicals next to your babys skin for the first 2+ years of their life? Not teaching your baby to go to the toilet in their nappy then telling them at 2-3 years old that's not acceptable and they have to learn to go in the toilet? There are benefits to ec, just as there are benefits to using conventional nappies. I don't think it matters if it makes more work for mum, as long as she is happy to do it, then what is the problem? It's not crazy or insane at all, lets remember half the world don't use nappies, they use ec, it's just that it's not the "normal" way in the western world.


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## snagglepat

There is some more info on elimination communication here: https://eco-baby.co.uk/babies/elimination-communication-what-is-it but if you google it there's a lot more. Like kiwimama said it's what most non-western mums do anyway, and it's what we must have done before we invented nappies. We were going to try it with our daughter but had some other problems when she was newborn so it fell to the back burner. In the end we used washables, but we'll consider it again this time. I have several friends who have done it and all their children have been pretty much completely potty/toilet trained by the age of 1 - basically once they had the ability to get themselves to a potty they would do so and use it! 

So yeah, that's just a parenting choice that's slightly out of the mainstream - but not so whacky when you look into it.

Denying the child the right to express their gender - in whatever way - is something I can't comprehend though. Both DP and I were tomboys who ended up becoming lesbians, (a bit of a stereotype, but the truth) so we know what it's like to grow up expressing one's gender in a slightly different way. My mother is also an ardent feminist, so I grew up with great pride in the fact that I was a girl, becoming a woman, even if I was doing it in short hair and trousers whilst playing with lego technic.

Our daughter's wardrobe is a mix of girl and boy clothes, mostly because we're grateful for hand-me-downs regardless of the gender of the child they came from. She's quite happy with that, but she's also much more 'girly' than DP and I ever were, playing 'house' and 'families' with her dolls for hours on end. We're about to redecorate her bedroom and she's requested it be purple with butterflies and ladybirds, so that's what she'll get. If she'd asked for it to be blue with space ships then she could have had that too. Like everyone has said, it's important to let our children express who they are and what they like but we also have to ensure that they grow up understanding the cultural context in which they live. Like it or not, we live in a gendered society and children need to have an understanding of this if they are to grow up feeling comfortable with their place in it - whatever place they may choose to make for themselves.

As for the man who sometimes wore items of women's clothing and shopped in the women's section of the store - so what? He was doing no-one any harm and was expressing himself in a way that made him feel comfortable with who he was, just like I used to only ever wear boys clothes. Gender doesn't need to be confined to the stereotypes, but I do think there's a big difference between being neutral about gender by giving equal weight to all choices and trying to deny it completely.

Gina.


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## Nic1107

Denying and hiding a part of the child's identity is potentially going to teach the child only to have shame in his/her gender. What will the parent do if the child starts to show clear preferences- will she be proud if her child is a girl but shows preference toward 'masculine' toys and clothes, and disappointed if she turns out 'girly'? (or vice versa for a boy)? How can a child learn that girls can do 'boy' things and boys can do 'girl' things if the child is only allowed to do _anything_ as a 'gender neutral'? :nope: Poor kid.


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## KandyKinz

In regards to elimination communication.... I don't think it's crazyness at all... It's definitly not for everyone and I only know of two people who have actually done it but both of them felt it was a very rewarding experience and as mentioned above some cultures just don't use nappies and for them it's the norm.... And just like someone else had mentioned, I too use cloth diapers and tons of people think I'm crazy... But cloth is by far the best choice for my babies. 

Then in terms of the no-gender child... Well I think she definitly is experimenting with her child rather then just society and in my opinion I think she's taken the baby X thing a little too far. It's one thing to teach your child the foolishness of gender barriers and not restrict their access to both "boy" and "girl" items... it's completley different to deny them of having a "sex" as doing so really isolates them as in my opinion it eliminates apart of their identity... At the same time I do believe that "gender" is a completely socially and culturally fabricated concept and is fluid and can change overtime. Just because a person has girl bits doesn't necessarily mean her gender is also female..... Only that individual knows what they identify as. Maybe I'm screwing my kids up but I've raised them to believe that just because one of them has a penis and the other one has a vagina doens't mean that they have to conform to the typical male and female roles.... but they can if they wish... And that mindset also flows into the realm of sexuality and transgenderism. I've been very open with them about the many different lifestyles out there and have done my best to ensure that they know that they are all completely acceptable. And it's my hope that they'll follow their innerselves and be strong enough to be who they really are whether it's adhering to the stereotypical gender norms or not..... 

My only concern though with identifying children according to their sex is that it has a tendency to pretty much always discriminate against people born with ambiguous genitalia which puts parents in a very awkward position as to how to identify their children with this condition and whether they should surgical correct their children in order to conform to the norm. Not to mention the trauma the child goes through knowing that they are very different then everyone else becaue EVERYTHING seems to be geared towards what sex you are.... And unlike common belief the incidence of babies born with ambiguous genitalia is quite high and has been documented to be approximately 1 in 4000.... Just to put that into perspective there's about 80,000 members on BnB which means approximately 20 people on here were born without typical sex genitalia or a typical sex chromosomal genotype and therefore they were born without a "gender."


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## Justagirlxx

kiwimama said:


> Justagirlxx said:
> 
> 
> I think its ridiculous and I'm sure the child is going to be extremely confused as it grows up. Poor kid.
> 
> Also I dont understand the point of the nappy thing as infants have no control over bowel movements. It just creates more work for the mother. Maybe the mom can be proud she knows when her baby is going to poop/pee but the infant isn't going to understand either way whats going on. *What is the point besides more sleep deprivation for moms?*
> 
> *Environmental factors? Not putting chemicals next to your babys skin for the first 2+ years of their life? Not teaching your baby to go to the toilet in their nappy then telling them at 2-3 years old that's not acceptable and they have to learn to go in the toilet?* There are benefits to ec, just as there are benefits to using conventional nappies. I don't think it matters if it makes more work for mum, as long as she is happy to do it, then what is the problem? It's not crazy or insane at all, lets remember half the world don't use nappies, they use ec, it's just that it's not the "normal" way in the western world.Click to expand...

Sounds just like more unnessesary things moms are pressured into feeling guilty about this day and age. Since we dont live in a 3rd world country and CAN afford diapers, I will use them. Yay for modern technology!


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## KandyKinz

Justagirlxx said:


> kiwimama said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Justagirlxx said:
> 
> 
> I think its ridiculous and I'm sure the child is going to be extremely confused as it grows up. Poor kid.
> 
> Also I dont understand the point of the nappy thing as infants have no control over bowel movements. It just creates more work for the mother. Maybe the mom can be proud she knows when her baby is going to poop/pee but the infant isn't going to understand either way whats going on. *What is the point besides more sleep deprivation for moms?*
> 
> *Environmental factors? Not putting chemicals next to your babys skin for the first 2+ years of their life? Not teaching your baby to go to the toilet in their nappy then telling them at 2-3 years old that's not acceptable and they have to learn to go in the toilet?* There are benefits to ec, just as there are benefits to using conventional nappies. I don't think it matters if it makes more work for mum, as long as she is happy to do it, then what is the problem? It's not crazy or insane at all, lets remember half the world don't use nappies, they use ec, it's just that it's not the "normal" way in the western world.Click to expand...
> 
> Sounds just like more unnessesary things moms are pressured into feeling guilty about this day and age. Since we dont live in a 3rd world country and CAN afford diapers, I will use them. Yay for modern technology!Click to expand...

I don't think at all mom's who use elimination communication are doing so because they have been pressured into feeling guilty about using diapers... At least not the ones I know... From my experience it's the other way around in that they are ridiculed and made to feel bad or a freak for their choice. They do it cause it's their preference not out of guilt.


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## Vickie

I don't think anyone is trying to make you feel guilty for using diapers (whether it be cloth or disposables) but are trying to explain the ideas behind EC :shrug:

I use disposable diapers but do have friends who have done EC and I find it interesting to read about how they go about it (reading their babies cues etc.). I don't think it's for me (will never say never because you don't know what could happen) but that doesn't mean I can't be open minded about other parents using the practice :flower:


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## kiwimama

Don't get me wrong, I use nappies (although cloth nappies because sposies cause a rash for my lo) but thought I would stand up a bit for mothers that practice ec, because there are a few on here that I've come across, and at least one person called it "mental" and "crazy". I only wanted to point out, some of the reasons that mothers practice ec. There is nothing wrong with ec, just as there is nothing wrong with using nappies, right? :flower:


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## PeanutBean

Like everyone else I think there is no denying sex (except in rare physiological circumstances). However the gender thing is something I feel extremely strong about. Did you know that research has been done using key gender characteristics to identify individuals as male - female? The results showed a normal distribution. This means that most people fall in the middle, neither overtly male nor female in personality characteristics regardless of their sex.

Since he was born we've had many people tell us Byron is "a proper boy" whatever that's supposed to mean! The pressures to conform to gender stereotypes are phenomenal.

In many ways I dread having a girl as it will be a neverending fight to get non-pink clothes and toys, get people to buy gifts that are interesting instead of pretty.

If you think you don't gender stereotype think again as most people do if they're honest. Why is it sweet for a girl to marry her boy and girl trucks? This just demonstrates that girls are brought up to expect a man and marriage. Marriage isn't biological therefore it is absolutely through social conditioning that a girl would play in this way. I think it's very sad that in this day and age girls are supposed to be pretty, like flowers and love hearts, make up and clothes. Boys are gender stereotyped too of course but at least a sense of inate personal worth is instilled in them. They have professional success and wealth on their side as they grow up.


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## Soos

when i was a kid (i'm 24 now) we didn't have any disposable diapers over here (former USSR) and almost 100% of the parents used elimination communication PLUS cloth diapering. it was EC during the day and cloth during the night (or outside). it was a NORMAL practice over here and most of the kids by the age of 1--1.5 were potty trained.
for the people of the age 55+ seeing a 3 y/o toddler in a diaper is still a shock. when i was 3 i used to wake up in the middle of the night and go to the loo MYSELF without anyone's help


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## KandyKinz

Soos said:


> when i was a kid (i'm 24 now) we didn't have any disposable diapers over here (former USSR) and almost 100% of the parents used elimination communication PLUS cloth diapering. it was EC during the day and cloth during the night (or outside). it was a NORMAL practice over here and most of the kids by the age of 1--1.5 were potty trained.
> for the people of the age 55+ seeing a 3 y/o toddler in a diaper is still a shock. when i was 3 i used to wake up in the middle of the night and go to the loo MYSELF without anyone's help

That's very interesting, do you plan to carry on with that tradition?


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## Soos

KandyKinz said:


> Soos said:
> 
> 
> when i was a kid (i'm 24 now) we didn't have any disposable diapers over here (former USSR) and almost 100% of the parents used elimination communication PLUS cloth diapering. it was EC during the day and cloth during the night (or outside). it was a NORMAL practice over here and most of the kids by the age of 1--1.5 were potty trained.
> for the people of the age 55+ seeing a 3 y/o toddler in a diaper is still a shock. when i was 3 i used to wake up in the middle of the night and go to the loo MYSELF without anyone's help
> 
> That's very interesting, do you plan to carry on with that tradition?Click to expand...

hopefully yes, my mom promised to teach me how to do it right. i've bought a stash of cloth diapers and we'll give it a go. summers over here are VERY humid and hot, so i really don't want him to sweat and suffer in diapers on those days.


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## cupcake23

I heard about this and I was gobsmacked!

There is your sex and sexuality and both are important, as a child you have to grow up being proud of it but also respecting the opposite.

Yes society does put labels, and people hate pink on girls because you pigeon hole them just the same with boys in blue but any parent (older kids/ teenagers) will tell you that their child soon becomes independent and will choose their own colour of clothes just the same way they choose their own lifestyle I.e emo, goth, punk

Both sexes have their functions so how is this child meant to grow up not being able to at least identify themselves in this way, of course this is a child but these are questions for the future and the way their mother has chosen to parent will have a long term effect.

I can only assume this child is not exposed to other people talking about their own gender so this child is further conflicted...

I just hope this 'experiment' ends asap for the child's sake, this reminds me of the beginning of the horror film 'Carrie'


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## Widget

We are not planning on raising our child as gender neutral per se, however we are going to dress our child in mostly gender neutral clothing (obviously I'm not going to put a boy in a dress... we're trying to create equality, not scar the child by going against those gender roles that lie deep in society). We plan on purchasing both traditional "boys" and "girls" toys and just let our child determine what he/she wants.


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## Tanikit

Essentially we are doing that with our daughter - I let her play with whatever she wants and she has watched both "girl" and "boy" movies too - she is quite the Star Wars fan despite being a girl. And I certainly don't only dress her in dresses but then girls are able to wear a wider variety of clothes than boys - she wears both trousers and tops and girly dresses and its never been all pink. When we fix the taps or pull apart the computer she watches with interest. When I iron the clothes or clean the house, fix animals (I am a vet) or dance she does that too or watches. We show her spiders and let her wear tiaras. We let her wear nail polish and paint her face and let her play with cars and see inside engines. We discuss street signs and car brands and types of clothing. She plays with dolls and dragons, animals and trucks, she swims and runs, dances and sits quietly - and why shouldn't she?

I don't think any child should be limited in what they can or can't do. She is a girl and she tends towards certain girly things, but she loves the guy stuff too and why shouldn't she see it all and decide for herself? 

Sometimes I think though that it is easier for girls than for boys - boys are influenced striongly by their fathers to be tough and to play with boys toys - its ok for a girl to want to do an essentially mae career, but when a boy wants to do something considered girly then there are more problems - but maybe that is just cause I have a girl. I wonder what I would do if I had a son?


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## KandyKinz

Tanikit said:


> Sometimes I think though that it is easier for girls than for boys - boys are influenced striongly by their fathers to be tough and to play with boys toys - its ok for a girl to want to do an essentially mae career, but when a boy wants to do something considered girly then there are more problems - but maybe that is just cause I have a girl. I wonder what I would do if I had a son?

I agree that it is easier for girls to be gender neutral as opposed to boys in terms of having both access and acceptance in engaging in boy male and female sterotypical roles.

It tends to be much more accepting for a girl to play with trucks and star wars action figures then it is for a boy to paint his finger nails pink... It's much more accepting for a girl to walk around in a hockey jersey and baseball cap then it is for boy to wear a dress. 

Girls are entitled to their own " girl groups" eg Girls Guides whereas boys in my area have had their boy groups taken and revamped to allow girls to join as well eg Scouts (formerly Boy Scouts).... Gotta love gender equality.....

And then it continues into adulthood....

Based on my own personal experiences it's much more accepting for a woman to work out of the home than it is for a man to be a stay at home father. Then in terms of career choices it's much more accepting for a woman to choose a male dominated career such as carpentry and auto mechanics then it is for a male to choose a female dominated jobs like early childhood educators or nurses... Yes men do occupy those jobs but they are viewed more negatively then women who occupy sterotypical masculine jobs. And then there's jobs that men have pretty much no access to like midwifery.... In my entire country there's only 1 male midwife. 

And then the inequality doesn't just end there. When a woman gets pregnant, if she decides she wants to terminate she's entitled to do so regardless of whether or not the father wants the baby.... If the woman decides to keep the baby, the father is obligated to pay child support for the next 18 years regardless of whether or not he had wanted the woman to continue the pregnancy.....

And it just goes on and on and on.... 

And while I do agree that there was a time in which women were greatly repressed and that we must continue to ensure that our daughters know that their gender should never limit them in their lives.... I also believe we must start focusing more attention on the gender equality our boys are faced with....


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## PeanutBean

My DH has long hair, is short and unbulked, is a writer with a day job in a library and is considering training to be a primary school teacher. He hates football and cars, in interested in family life and is likely to be a sahd after my next mat leave or at least go part time. On nights out he wears makeup and has been known to wear a dress in the past. If boys are lacking in varied role models it's men that are at fault. If women are lacking in opportunity to do male jobs and receive equal pay (which is still the case) for equal work it's men that are at fault. Those women perpetuating the gender myth with their children are exacerbating the situation.


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## PeanutBean

I wonder KandyKinz if you've worked in a male dominated profession? As a scientist I've witnessed first hand the quiet male domination in the field and almost without exception every person in my field of work now is a woman who dropped out of academic science. It is institutionally discriminatory to women. In Biology there are now more girls than boys studying it at uni and yet the higher up the ranks one looks the fewer and fewer women there are. It is almost impossible to become a top scientist and have a family and most times those women that manage it have done it at great expense.

In the UK we are now offering extra bursaries to women studying engineering PhDs. There is so much incentive to push girls into engineering. But bring a woman in an engineering environment, in employment, is very difficult. In most places there remains a strong masculinity and indeed sexism in the workplace.

I agree however that there should be more to iron out the male stereotypes. I would like to see bursaries for men wishing to study primary teaching and that sort of thing. Though I'd also like to see the same for anyone with a science background which is massively underrepresented in primary.

We should challenge ALL gender stereotypes but don't be taken in thinking there is no battle for women anymore. All the evidence shows there still is.


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## KandyKinz

I've worked primarily in a very female dominating profession which has been overtaken by extreme feminism and an overly discriminating attitude towards men... And whilst pursuing my career, my husband stayed at home to care for our children and faced much unacceptance.... Much more then I did for leaving my family in his capable hands, having to put my career first and working 60+ hours a week. 

I also grew up in a very gender biased family where women who stayed at home to care for their children was greatly frowned upon as by doing so they were viewed to be perpetuating the mindset that that's all women are capable of doing... And in my opinion that mindset is extremely detrimental to the concept of inequality as that in itself is limiting women's options. Plus, there's much much more in life then career success. 

Anyways, we obviously have experienced very different circumstances and our opinions obviously reflect the fact that our worlds are very different.... I don't deny the fact that gender discrimination exists among women.... I am just saying that the very opposite exists as well and often as the byproduct of women trying to compensate for their inequality...... 

Equality should exist between both genders and thus far in my life I have yet to see true equality between genders in action.... It either goes one way or the other.... And I do not believe men are solely to blame for this nor do I believe it's the fault of women.... It's the society as whole which is responsible....


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## PeanutBean

I believe that the perpetuation of a woman's role by women still originates in our patriarchal origins. When men had all the choice and wanted demure, maternal, pretty women of course mothers would encourage their daughters to be what men want. This is still evident on cultures where the myth continues such ss in Japan where they've progressed far enough for women to have a career but not far enough that when they marry they are expected to give up that career.

Sometimes women are their own worst enemy as far as equality goes however I still place the origins with the expectations of men. I personally think that the expectations placed on women in regards to beauty and the likes, generally unobtainable, are a disgrace and wouldn't like to see boys or girls under that sort of pressure. Some gender stereotyping should be gone rather than equalised.

The reality is however that certain careers will naturally lend themselves to one gender or the other irrespective of equality. The vast majority if women will never want a male midwife. I think there will always be a greater proportion of men in such fields as physics and engineering. Our mission should not to have equal numbers of men and women in every field necessarily but to allow true equality of opportunity in all fields should a person of whichever sex wish to pursue it. In many cases this requires a total overhaul of the process of a given occupation to allow flexible working for work life balance fir men and women.

When the Labour party get back in to government here there will be much more done to address the challenge if flexible working for all, especially if the new Leader is still there. But as is so often the case, the measures will come into place to support men that have not been in place to support women previously. We'll all benefit in the long run but ultimately it usually stems from the needs of men.

Oh from next April we will have new rights for fathers to take 6 months paternity leave provided the mother has returned to work and it is withinthe first year.


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## PeanutBean

Sorry about the typos, on my phone!


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## MyFavSurprise

Gender neutral is good when it comes to choices made by the child. She is taking it very extreme! I would not do that, because I believe it can cause confusion.

My nephew asked for a cooking set for his birthday, he got the whole set, and even a pink blender! He loved it and so long as he was happy, everyone else was too. My little cousin grew up with two older brothers and made her own choice to run around topless with just shorts on! She refused to dress like a girl and that was her choice, nobody forced against it and she is 21 and a beautiful girl.

I believe is more traumatizing to force a child against what they are interested in, if I have a boy and he wants a baby doll, you bet I'll get him one! One of my favorite toys was a Stretch Armstrong, haha. But I'd never attempt to confuse my child by refusing them an identity to grasp.


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## Mizze

KandyKinz said:


> I also grew up in a very gender biased family where women who stayed at home to care for their children was greatly frowned upon as by doing so they were viewed to be perpetuating the mindset that that's all women are capable of doing... And in my opinion that mindset is extremely detrimental to the concept of inequality as that in itself is limiting women's options. Plus, there's much much more in life then career success.




PeanutBean said:


> Our mission should not to have equal numbers of men and women in every field necessarily but to allow true equality of opportunity in all fields should a person of whichever sex wish to pursue it. In many cases this requires a total overhaul of the process of a given occupation to allow flexible working for work life balance fir men and women.

I agree with both of the above. And by the way am finding this a fascinating discussion

Peanutbean, I have been thinking about what you said in an earlier post about gender stereotyping without even being aware of it. I think that is true that nearly all of us do it completely unconsiously to a certain extent even when we try not to. 

Thinking about the original point of the thread. How do you do that with the child itself, bring them up without an idea of their gender identity. Is it automatic to say something about their gender from the moment they are born even if its just to the point of calling your LO - a good girl or a good boy or is that something you can stop yourself doing? I really dont know. 

Mizze x


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## PeanutBean

I think the idea of what this woman is doing is probably good in principle but bad in practice. I think it ridiculous the hide the sex of a child though I understand why she chooses to do that. I think a challenge to gender stereotyping however is better done when the sex is known. If the parents can do their utmost to offer all and encourage all then this is likely to be more productive than a masquerade. The challenge is other people and commerce which is determined to make money through selling gender coded items so things can be less reused. Interestingly a couple of hundred years ego when women had no rights at all children were all dressed the same in dresses, no doubt the origin of the christening gown.

I gender stereotype. I shave off my body hair. I like colourful makeup on a night out. I know these things are ridiculous but then I don't like hairy men and do like men in make up. I think the issue arises where the stereotyping is at the expense of genuine self worth. I've always been very proud of being brainy but then I am no beauty. Perhaps if I was beautiful I would find it hard to fight the system. But then I never liked pink and always wore boys shoes so maybe it's just in me anyway! Lol

You can't really fight the system if you hide and are not honest which is what I suspect is happening in this case.


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## meow951

I wouldn't do it to the extreme this women seems to have!

I was allowed to wear and play with whatever i wanted to! My sister has an obsession with Thomas the tank engine which some people may consider to be a male toy but she's turned out fine!

My OH's mum on the other had wouldn't let him wear anything pink in case it made him gay!!!! Which i think is ridiculous!

Why can't people just let their children be children and play and wear what is wants? Who says girls have to have pink rooms? My baby, regardless of gender is having a hungry caterpillar themed room :haha:

Also what about when this poor child is confused and being bullied by other children? Surely it's important to be brought up knowing the differences between female and male etc? I really don't agree with it!


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## Jody R

I've read that article before, about Pop, and I don't like it. I'm hoping it's the same article the OP has read and not some other poor child being used by their parents to make a point.

It has interested me here that most people here have commented about the mother and nobody (that I've noticed) has mentioned the father. Perhaps that is one of our society stereotypes right here, mothers do tend to get the blame more than fathers.

But I disagree with the idea that any parent can make a decision to raise a gender-neutral child. They aren't, because in this case their child clearly has a gender, it's not neutral, they are just keeping it a secret.

I really can't agree with them when they say (in the article linked) "Girls are told they are cute in their dresses, and boys are told they are cool with their car toys. _But if you give them no gender they will be seen more as a human or not a stereotype as a boy or girl. _

She says that without these gender stereotypes, children can build character as individuals, not hindered by preconceived notions of what they should be as males or females."  because it just doesn't feel right to me. 

I appreciate that sometimes, in rare cases, a person is born without a clear gender and in those cases I feel very sad and sorry for all concerned who have to make a decision to either chose a gender for that child or wait until the child is old enough to express which gender they feel they are or even decide for themselves to live as gender-neutral. 

But excepting those cases and with no offence meant to them, people who do know exactly what gender their child is but chose to raise that child without acknowledging it and keeping it a secret are asking for trouble and are not, to me, making that child be seen more as a human than as a stereotyped man or woman. It actually feels less human to me to deliberately keep gender a secret, there's something of the robot or the pod-person about it. 

Men and women are obviously also human and are not stereotypes. I'm not a stereotype, I would think that Pop's parents don't see themselves as stereotypes and I doubt anyone here would say that they were stereotypes.

The bits between your legs might not be the be all and end all of who you are but they do, in most cases, contribute a little bit to your own sense of identity and that shouldn't be taken away by parents who claim to be experimenting with society by using their own child as the lab rat.

You can give a boy a doll or a play kitchen, you can give a girl a toy car or a train set. You can teach your son to cook and your daughter to fix the car if you want to, you don't have to call them Turnip and refuse to tell anyone what sex they are.

I wish I was creative enough to make Joseph's clothes or rich enough to buy custom made designer because at the moment we are restricted to the high street and most of their clothes for boys are blue, green, red or black and covered in cartoon characters. It's the cartoons that annoy me more than the colours, but where I wouldn't object to pink I would object to a dress _if it were my choice only._ If he comes home at 15 and tells me he thinks he is actually a woman called Jennifer who will be dressing like Barbie, dating men but keeping his penis I will still love him and god help anyone in society who doesn't accept him being that way in my hearing. But I'm not going to force that on him so I can gloat about how much more politically-correct-metrosexual-cool I am than they are.


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## tommyg

I think this woman is being very extream and not helpful to the child.

I am 100% woman maybe I am a tom-boy at heart and that is something that I have always had. 

As a very small child I wanted a red ride on tractor and that is what santa gave me and I loved it, the dolls were occasonally put in the trailor but so was most of my other toys, jammies & I remember being told to "go and get the hot water bottles" which were put in the trailor for them to be filled up for that night. I also owned lots of matchbox cars and lego. Those things were seen as boys toys.

I had a sindy doll who camped, skiied and horse rode, barbie was far to pink and frilly for my liking.

I grew up to work in construction and love it. I couldn't imagine myself working in fashion or other female profession.

May be their is something in socity that means it is acceptable for a girl to be a tom-boy but not the other way around. For a boy to want dolls or pink things he'll be classed as a sissy or people fear that he'll grow up to be gay or something.


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## qwk

well i guess this could only last until the kid is in preschool or school and has to pick which restroom to go to...:blush:


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## NG09

This is WEIRD!!! Why would anyone do that. I think she must not be quite 100%.


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## mumoffive

Well ok. Girls are born with a vagina. Boys are born with a penis..they are different, no matter which way you look at it. Their roles will be different in life. Girls will bear children and as nature dictates she will be good at nurturing. She has breasts for this express purpose. As part of this, she will learn much of how she will be because she will reinact this when she is little through role play. I really fail to see the problem with this as it is a BIOLOGICAL FACT that male and female are different. What is so difficult about that? There is no need to go over the top and dress every little girl in pink and for them to become princesses but i do believe that some people are just taking things a little too far!!!!


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## mumoffive

Oh and strangely enough my ds has had access to both boys and girls toys because he has a sister. Noone has taught him to like cars and yet, he is the one that does. I find that amazing. He can sit endlessely spinning wheels on cars and 'driving' them..yet noone has taught him this.


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## Jody R

mumoffive said:


> Oh and strangely enough my ds has had access to both boys and girls toys because he has a sister. Noone has taught him to like cars and yet, he is the one that does. I find that amazing. He can sit endlessely spinning wheels on cars and 'driving' them..yet noone has taught him this.


:thumbup: Same here. I agree with this, Joseph was still a very little baby the first time he spotted a toy car and let us know he liked the look of it. Now he loves the toy aisle in the shops etc but he has his own definate ideas about what he likes and wants. I don't care if that's a barbie or a tank, if he wants it and we can justify buying it then he can have it, but he tends to chose a typical boys toy nine times out of ten. It is something that's already at work in his head but we haven't deliberately put it there. 

He was also still a very young baby when he started pointing at cars and buses and getting excited about them and we didn't encourage that either, again it's just something he does.


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## mumoffive

Jody R said:


> mumoffive said:
> 
> 
> Oh and strangely enough my ds has had access to both boys and girls toys because he has a sister. Noone has taught him to like cars and yet, he is the one that does. I find that amazing. He can sit endlessely spinning wheels on cars and 'driving' them..yet noone has taught him this.
> 
> 
> :thumbup: Same here. I agree with this, Joseph was still a very little baby the first time he spotted a toy car and let us know he liked the look of it. Now he loves the toy aisle in the shops etc but he has his own definate ideas about what he likes and wants. I don't care if that's a barbie or a tank, if he wants it and we can justify buying it then he can have it, but he tends to chose a typical boys toy nine times out of ten. It is something that's already at work in his head but we haven't deliberately put it there.
> 
> He was also still a very young baby when he started pointing at cars and buses and getting excited about them and we didn't encourage that either, again it's just something he does.Click to expand...

Is so strange isnt it? ..and the thing is, the first cars he played with were my dd cars!!! She was never very interested in them. He didnt have any that were his and yet went to those first. I was really amazed at this as he was never ever taught in any way to play with cars but showed way more interest in things and was far more interested in things that spun or moved with knobs and buttons.


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## Jody R

mumoffive said:


> Jody R said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> mumoffive said:
> 
> 
> Oh and strangely enough my ds has had access to both boys and girls toys because he has a sister. Noone has taught him to like cars and yet, he is the one that does. I find that amazing. He can sit endlessely spinning wheels on cars and 'driving' them..yet noone has taught him this.
> 
> 
> :thumbup: Same here. I agree with this, Joseph was still a very little baby the first time he spotted a toy car and let us know he liked the look of it. Now he loves the toy aisle in the shops etc but he has his own definate ideas about what he likes and wants. I don't care if that's a barbie or a tank, if he wants it and we can justify buying it then he can have it, but he tends to chose a typical boys toy nine times out of ten. It is something that's already at work in his head but we haven't deliberately put it there.
> 
> He was also still a very young baby when he started pointing at cars and buses and getting excited about them and we didn't encourage that either, again it's just something he does.Click to expand...
> 
> Is so strange isnt it? ..and the thing is, the first cars he played with were my dd cars!!! She was never very interested in them. He didnt have any that were his and yet went to those first. I was really amazed at this as he was never ever taught in any way to play with cars but showed way more interest in things and was far more interested in things that spun or moved with knobs and buttons.Click to expand...

It is strange. Joseph's cars were secondhand from his cousins, we'd gone more for zoo animal type toys when we bought him things. Some of the cars were pink barbie/polly pocket type things and he didn't care, just as long as they drive.


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## Trying4ababy

I guess I'm confused. Whether you dress a child in boy or girl or gender neutral clothing isn't the child going to look either male or female anyway?


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## mumoffive

Trying4ababy said:


> I guess I'm confused. Whether you dress a child in boy or girl or gender neutral clothing isn't the child going to look either male or female anyway?

Well yes lol!! because we have males and females in the world. Why anyone would want to deny their child to male or female is beyond me! Children are not born gender neutral..they are gender specific unless of course they are hemaphrodytes.


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## violetsky

I've never read anything so ridiculous in all my life! Does her child not have a penis or a vagina? Seriousy I mean because otherwise they DO have a gender ffs, and that is important.

Boys won't start periods, girls won't experience their voices breaking, we are NOT the same. It's this sort of thing that messes people up for life imo. She should be made to stop.


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## oread

Am I seriously the only one who doesn't think this is bad thing? 

I don't think she is doing anything bad or wrong to her child and I bet it will grow to be happy and healthy because she obviously cares about her childs desires more than societal pressures. It just freaks people out because they are so used to putting people into a strictly defined gender category. Once you find out if a child is a boy or a girl I bet you will treat it differently regardless of how unbiased you think you are.
Start paying attention to how often people tell little girls they are pretty. Honestly, its about the only compliment people give to little girls. How often do you tell a little girl that she is smart and capable? Or do you just compliment her outfit and hand her a doll?

Honestly I think giving little girls dolls is a lot more twisted than letting your child decide for themselves what gender role they want to follow. It doesn't sound like this mother is _forcing_ anything onto her child. But what are you doing when you give a little girl a doll and kitchen playset? You are basically telling her her role in society is to clean and pop out babies. It makes me really sad to see little girls forced into the role of a mother when they are just babies themselves - not that being a mom isn't a wonderful thing, but we shouldn't be trained into it as toddlers and told that is our only value. Little boys are also trained by society to use certain toys and behave in certain ways, and I see no problem with this women not allowing people to pressure her child into the boxes they are used to.

I don't plan on going that far myself, but I can see why she wants to let her child explore gender roles as they grow and develop. I guess we will have to wait and see, but if anything I think it will be good for the child to have that kind of freedom to chose for itself.


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## Trying4ababy

mumoffive said:


> Trying4ababy said:
> 
> 
> I guess I'm confused. Whether you dress a child in boy or girl or gender neutral clothing isn't the child going to look either male or female anyway?
> 
> Well yes lol!! because we have males and females in the world. Why anyone would want to deny their child to male or female is beyond me! Children are not born gender neutral..they are gender specific unless of course they are hemaphrodytes.Click to expand...


What I meant was. It says she won't tell people the gender of her child but even a young baby looks either male or female within a couple months after birth. My cousin Colton had the most beautiful blond super curly hair and beautiful blue eyes and even when he was 6 months old you couldn't have put him in gender neutral clothes and fooled anyone.


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## PeanutBean

I think most babies don't particularly look male or female. Not without gender specific clothing or haircuts/accessories. Sex and gender are two different things.


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## Racheldigger

I always thought I was raising Rowan gender neutral - I see now I didn't have a clue! 

Apropos being able to tell a small child's gender by looking, regardless of how it's dressed, it seems that some people can and some can't, or just don't bother to. My OH is always maintaining that he can tell what other people's children are at a glance, and it really gets on his nerves when people assume that Rowan is a boy just because she's wearing something blue... and they do, they do, they say things like "You're too pretty to be a boy!" (but not with the inflection that would imply "so you must be a girl") or they talk about 'your little boy' even when the blue garment she is wearing is a dress!


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## coccyx

Ridiculous. Our gender is part of our identity. I have boys and girls and have no issues with my son dressing up in the fairy outfits. He is different to my girls in many ways, my oldest girl is really womanly, whats the deal with that


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## Cloberella

Jody R said:


> It has interested me here that most people here have commented about the mother and nobody (that I've noticed) has mentioned the father. Perhaps that is one of our society stereotypes right here, mothers do tend to get the blame more than fathers.

No-one mentioned the father because in the magazine article the mother said she had split up with him, and I don't believe there was any contact.

So he has no say in how the child is brought up.


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## Jody R

Cloberella said:


> Jody R said:
> 
> 
> It has interested me here that most people here have commented about the mother and nobody (that I've noticed) has mentioned the father. Perhaps that is one of our society stereotypes right here, mothers do tend to get the blame more than fathers.
> 
> No-one mentioned the father because in the magazine article the mother said she had split up with him, and I don't believe there was any contact.
> 
> So he has no say in how the child is brought up.Click to expand...

Ah. Then that is a different article to the one I read (https://www.thelocal.se/20232/20090623/), those parents were very much together and in agreement about what they were doing to their child.


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## kiwimama

I am interested to know, would anyone here actually dress their newborn baby boy in pink clothes? In that I mean, would you go out to buy some baby clothes and go, "oh that bright pink body suit will look lovely on my baby boy?"

OH and I have already decided that if we have a boy, we would reuse lots of Ella baby clothes, even the pink stuff, although OH says he wouldn't allow him in pink outside of the house.... :shrug:


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## Jody R

kiwimama said:


> I am interested to know, would anyone here actually dress their newborn baby boy in pink clothes? In that I mean, would you go out to buy some baby clothes and go, "oh that bright pink body suit will look lovely on my baby boy?"
> 
> OH and I have already decided that if we have a boy, we would reuse lots of Ella baby clothes, even the pink stuff, although OH says he wouldn't allow him in pink outside of the house.... :shrug:

Our HV came out to the house twice when Joseph was a newborn, the first time as a kind of quick check/introduction and the second to go through some kind of grading chart where they assess if they think you need more help with anything. I forget what it's called but they go through everything, including your income and your relationships with family!

I was so worried about it for days before it happened but when she arrived she barely asked us a question and said she already knew everything she needed to know the first time she walked through the door. 

But one of the things she did say was that some people have difficultly bonding and don't give their child an identity but that wasn't the case with us. We asked what she meant and she said that we had given Joseph an obviously male name and had already said that we had named him after my Grandad, so proved we had strong family values and ties. She also said that both times he had been dressed well in boys clothes, so we were giving him a gender identity.

I didn't think his clothes were obviously boy clothes since we hadn't found out his sex before he was born and a lot of the things we had were white and cream, but once he was born people bought us a lot of blue. 

At the time she said it he had just been fed and was still wrapped in a pink towel though :haha: But she said that just proved we were learning to cope with his need to be kept dry since he was a very spitty-up baby because of his colic. 

All of that has stuck in my mind so I don't think I would dress a boy in pink things intentionally, although havng said that we did recently have to borrow some pyjamas from his youngest cousin, who is a girl, and they were pink with hearts but it didn't look or feel right somehow, he was clearly a boy dressed in girls clothes. If we had another baby and it was a girl I wouldn't dress her in the boy outfits of his that we have saved.


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## peanut56

Unbelievable! 
Honestly, it never ceases to amaze me the things people will do to their child. All she is doing is ensuring this child is totally confused when it gets older. I'm sorry, but you can't force a little girl to play with a doll, and you can't force a little boy to play with a truck and vice versa...children will play with whatever they want. I used to love playing with GI Joe's when I was a kid. If a girl grows up to be really girly and into makeup and pink stuff, why would someone assume it's because it was basically forced on them due to stereotyping? This is just so bizarre to me. And if someone I knew was doing this, and not telling people the actual gender of her child, I would truly think she had lost her mind.


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## KandyKinz

Jody R said:


> Our HV came out to the house twice when Joseph was a newborn, the first time as a kind of quick check/introduction and the second to go through some kind of grading chart where they assess if they think you need more help with anything. I forget what it's called but they go through everything, including your income and your relationships with family!
> 
> I was so worried about it for days before it happened but when she arrived she barely asked us a question and said she already knew everything she needed to know the first time she walked through the door.
> 
> But one of the things she did say was that some people have difficultly bonding and don't give their child an identity but that wasn't the case with us. We asked what she meant and she said that we had given Joseph an obviously male name and had already said that we had named him after my Grandad, so proved we had strong family values and ties. She also said that both times he had been dressed well in boys clothes, so we were giving him a gender identity.
> 
> I didn't think his clothes were obviously boy clothes since we hadn't found out his sex before he was born and a lot of the things we had were white and cream, but once he was born people bought us a lot of blue.
> 
> At the time she said it he had just been fed and was still wrapped in a pink towel though :haha: But she said that just proved we were learning to cope with his need to be kept dry since he was a very spitty-up baby because of his colic.
> 
> All of that has stuck in my mind so I don't think I would dress a boy in pink things intentionally, although havng said that we did recently have to borrow some pyjamas from his youngest cousin, who is a girl, and they were pink with hearts but it didn't look or feel right somehow, he was clearly a boy dressed in girls clothes. If we had another baby and it was a girl I wouldn't dress her in the boy outfits of his that we have saved.

All I can think after reading that story is what the hell was wrong with your HV :nope: It's people like her (the HV) that are making women like the mother of the gender void child resort to such crazy extremes! Masculinizing or feminizing babies does not at all indicate a stable home or good parenting or proper bonding nor does the name you chose. A child can still be given an identity without being bombarded with stereotypical gender dividing names, clothes, toys, etc, etc. I'd love to know what pseudo-psychological theory she's basing her assessment of familial relations on......


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## PeanutBean

I agree! I've never heard of on HV talk about providing gender identity! Mine only cared Byron was warm, clean, fed and not I'll or unhappy.

I wouldn't (and don't) dress my boy in pink because I hate the colour! Girls used to be dressed in red you know rather than pink. I love blue so if I have a girl I'll be seeking blue out for her. I hated all the baby blue clothes we were given for Byron and went out of my way to find different colours, he looks fab in orange. I'll do the same if this one's a girl and she'll be wearing all her brother's clothes anyway. I'm not going to spend hundreds of pounds to dress her in pink dresses. :wacko: Of the girl had been first then likewise we'd mostly not have pink, flowery sleepsuits and things so there would be no issue. I hate all that pretty crap.


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## Jody R

KandyKinz said:


> Jody R said:
> 
> 
> Our HV came out to the house twice when Joseph was a newborn, the first time as a kind of quick check/introduction and the second to go through some kind of grading chart where they assess if they think you need more help with anything. I forget what it's called but they go through everything, including your income and your relationships with family!
> 
> I was so worried about it for days before it happened but when she arrived she barely asked us a question and said she already knew everything she needed to know the first time she walked through the door.
> 
> But one of the things she did say was that some people have difficultly bonding and don't give their child an identity but that wasn't the case with us. We asked what she meant and she said that we had given Joseph an obviously male name and had already said that we had named him after my Grandad, so proved we had strong family values and ties. She also said that both times he had been dressed well in boys clothes, so we were giving him a gender identity.
> 
> I didn't think his clothes were obviously boy clothes since we hadn't found out his sex before he was born and a lot of the things we had were white and cream, but once he was born people bought us a lot of blue.
> 
> At the time she said it he had just been fed and was still wrapped in a pink towel though :haha: But she said that just proved we were learning to cope with his need to be kept dry since he was a very spitty-up baby because of his colic.
> 
> All of that has stuck in my mind so I don't think I would dress a boy in pink things intentionally, although havng said that we did recently have to borrow some pyjamas from his youngest cousin, who is a girl, and they were pink with hearts but it didn't look or feel right somehow, he was clearly a boy dressed in girls clothes. If we had another baby and it was a girl I wouldn't dress her in the boy outfits of his that we have saved.
> 
> All I can think after reading that story is what the hell was wrong with your HV :nope: It's people like her (the HV) that are making women like the mother of the gender void child resort to such crazy extremes! Masculinizing or feminizing babies does not at all indicate a stable home or good parenting or proper bonding nor does the name you chose. A child can still be given an identity without being bombarded with stereotypical gender dividing names, clothes, toys, etc, etc. I'd love to know what pseudo-psychological theory she's basing her assessment of familial relations on......Click to expand...

Wow! I wasn't expecting that reaction. The chart is in the red books that every new mum is given when she takes her baby home, and all their injections and growth charts and things are recorded in it. You're meant to take it with you to all clinic and doctors appointments. I think it's something the whole country is assessed with by all HV's.

I probably didn't explain the situation very well and I only picked out the bits that seemed relevant to this discussion, because there is a lot more to the assessment than gender identity. It's not just about masculinizing or feminising but about many things that comprise the whole and I didn't put them in my post because they weren't all relevant. 

Perhaps she shouldn't have explained to us how they can make a decision on a home and family so quickly. They do have markers and warning signs to look out for but they also rely on their instincts and I'm sure they have seen homes and families like ours that can appear to tick all the boxes but just 'feel' wrong somehow and in that case I am sure she would have been back to visit many more times.

The assessment can go far deeper than it first appears and deeper than my poor explanation of some parts of it, and it's not the only thing they use to assess if a baby is safe and healthy and well cared for, she is an experienced HV who must have seen thousands of babies and homes and has an instinct for what she does. 

I wouldn't say that the system they use is responsible for the gender void mother chosing to hide her child's gender, although if she claimed that it was the reason I would still suspect she has deeper mental issues of her own to contend with too. To go so far she has to have a far more complex reason than a chart in a book and I still think if she has to play with societies expectations she should be the subject of her own experiment rather than inflict it on her child.

We haven't bombarded Joseph with masculine names or clothes or toys. In fact I also complain a lot about how hard it is to find him clothes that aren't typically blue or with pictures of cars on them and I hate the fact that some of the Fisher Price toys he has can be bought in normal colours like white or red and then also have the same range entirely in pink. Why can't a girl play with a grey aeroplane or a red school bus? Why make the same ones in pink?

But it's also possible to raise a child with a gender but without a bias to a colour or type of toy or lifestyle without the need to go to such weird extremes or raging against a girl having a doll and a boy having a toy car and I think it's important that the necessary gender differences are recognised and celebrated even while the unnecessary ones are done away with. 

We chose a masculine name for Joseph, well two actually, Joseph Robert, because of family connections and meanings and we chose feminine names for our daughter, Elisabeth Grace because we liked them and I always felt that my daughter's name was Elisabeth even well before I was ever pregnant. But for our first son we chose Ally MacRae and without my saying he was a boy people would most likely assume he was a girl. We chose them because he died while I was pregnant and before we knew his sex. We wanted to give our baby a name and had to think of something that would work either way. Ally just felt like the right name for our baby and MacRae is again a family name that has strong meaning and it was those reasons in particular, rather than the masculine or feminine style names, that helped with the assessment of us as parents. 

Most parents chose names to help form an identity, not like these parents who have chosen names to take identity away.


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## mommy43

i think its abit extreme im all for boys playing with buggies and babies n girls having cars n construction toys i dont think gender should hold u back if u want to do something do it but u should know your gender & be proud of it i think if the mother dresses the child in what could be seen to be 'boyish' cllothes wont it be treated as a boy anyway or vise versa


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## KandyKinz

My harsh reaction was primarily based on the HV's very sexist comments you mentioned eg "one of the things she did say was that some people have difficultly bonding and don't give their child an identity but that wasn't the case with us. We asked what she meant and she said that we had given Joseph an obviously male name" and "She also said that both times he had been dressed well in boys clothes, so we were giving him a gender identity."

And I wasn't implying at all that home visitors are what is responsible for the woman not giving her child a gender.... Just saying it's the boy clothes and boy name on a baby with a penis = normal and good attitude which is the problem.

There is ALOT more to identity then just gender. Babies should not be held captive to what sex organs they were born with (and I'm not even on the side of the "crazy" woman......)


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## Jody R

KandyKinz said:


> My harsh reaction was primarily based on the HV's very sexist comments you mentioned eg "one of the things she did say was that some people have difficultly bonding and don't give their child an identity but that wasn't the case with us. We asked what she meant and she said that we had given Joseph an obviously male name" and "She also said that both times he had been dressed well in boys clothes, so we were giving him a gender identity."
> 
> And I wasn't implying at all that home visitors are what is responsible for the woman not giving her child a gender.... Just saying it's the boy clothes and boy name on a baby with a penis = normal and good attitude which is the problem.
> 
> There is ALOT more to identity then just gender. Babies should not be held captive to what sex organs they were born with (and I'm not even on the side of the "crazy" woman......)

I don't think her comments were sexist though. I agree one of the definitions of sexism is applying stereotypes but giving a boy a typically male name can't be called a stereotype and neither can dressing him in 'boys' clothes. 

And I doubt her comments about identity were intended to stereotype him as a boy. As a HV she will meet people who do have issues bonding with a baby of any sex and some who don't want or care for their children. 

Part of the way we bond with our children is by picking a name that is important to us or special to us in some way and learning to be parents to a son or a daughter and that was also a part of my reply which you partly quoted _We asked what she meant and she said that we had given Joseph an obviously male name and had already said that we had named him after my Grandad, so proved we had strong family values and ties. _

I've highlighted a bit of your post in red because I don't understand why a boys name and boys clothes on a boy is a problem in itself. It is a normal attitude for many people to want to give their son a boys name or their daughter a girls name and it doesn't mean they would tell their son he couldn't be a nurse or a ballet dancer or their daughter that she couldn't be a lorry driver or a builder, jobs traditionally seen as female or male roles but now not so much. 

I agree, there is a lot more to identity than gender but it's not "holding them captive" to acknowledge their gender in their name or the way they are dressed. Just about everyone would use gender as a way to identify themselves if they were asked to describe who they were. Try saying to anybody "tell me about yourself" and most of them will come back to you with gender markers, often along with their age and where they come from and what job they do. It doesn't mean they are a stereotype or held captive by their gender when they do it, it just is so much a part of us and who we are, it's not the whole of who we are, but it plays it's own important part. :flower:


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## PeanutBean

Jody R said:


> I agree, there is a lot more to identity than gender but *it's not "holding them captive" to acknowledge their gender in their name or the way they are dressed*. Just about everyone would use gender as a way to identify themselves if they were asked to describe who they were. Try saying to anybody "tell me about yourself" and most of them will come back to you with gender markers, often along with their age and where they come from and what job they do. It doesn't mean they are a stereotype or held captive by their gender when they do it, it just is so much a part of us and who we are, it's not the whole of who we are, but it plays it's own important part. :flower:

I agree that the name is not so much an issue but disagree about clothes. They are huge markers of gender stereotyping and can have a negative effect. Look at the little girls in playboy branded clothing wearing tiny skirts and knee boots. If that's not gender stereotyping having a negative effect on girls then I don't know what is.

I also disagree with what you say about how people identify themselves. They probably will identify their sex but that is different from gender. Sex is male/female but gender is a set of characteristics or personality traits deemed to be wherever along the scale of masculine to feminine. I would say I love flowers and ponies and stars and love hearts if I was introducing myself to someone...


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## KandyKinz

I'm not at all against naming boys "boyish" names nor am I against naming girls "girly" names.... BUT I don't think viewing a name more positively because it is very gendered is acceptable.... I just think it was slightly inappropriate for her to specifically praise it because it was masculine eg "We asked what she meant and she said that we had given Joseph an obviously male name." Her evaluation of identity formation seemed to be highly based on traditional gender norms......

So do parents lose points on the chart for choosing gender neutral names as that is not in support of constructing a strong gender identity????


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## Ozzieshunni

Hmmmm, I've skimmed most of the posts and I like the idea of raising a child not to feel bad about which toys they play with regardless of gender, but I don't think I would go as far as ungendering my child (hee hee, I made up a word). BUT in working in childcare and nursery, I have found that some people are very intolerant of children straying outside of gender norms, especially parents who don't know about child development or who were raised with strong gender roles.

An example came from my friend who worked in a nursery. They had this pink faery dress and for some reason all the boys wanted to dress up in it. One mum came in and giggled and thought it was great her son was exploring all toys. One dad came in and went ballistic.

In this day and age, do we really need to degender children? Shouldn't we know by now that kids are prone to play with all kinds of toys, especially at a young age as they are exploring different roles?


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## lushious09

isint she in directly steriotyping her child though? as she is the one conforming boys to blue rooms and girls to pink rooms? i have a little boy and he has a brown and cream room... he also has items of clothing with yellow/pink in it? so what! I think shes playing a dangerous game 2bh as the child will grow up confused ... let your child play with girl/boy toys but why go to the extreme of hiding their gender or forcing this upon them? :S


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## KandyKinz

lushious09 said:


> isint she in directly steriotyping her child though? as she is the one conforming boys to blue rooms and girls to pink rooms? i have a little boy and he has a brown and cream room... he also has items of clothing with yellow/pink in it? so what! I think shes playing a dangerous game 2bh as the child will grow up confused ... let your child play with girl/boy toys but why go to the extreme of hiding their gender or forcing this upon them? :S

I couldn't help but notice your on "team blue"......

Anyways, I think what she's striving to do is help create a world in which children can play with boy and girl toys and wear boy and girl colors as you described above.... But the thing is although many parents ARE very accepting and supportive of their children playing and wearing whatever without fearing gender inadequacy... there are parents that simple aren't accepting of this as ozzie pointed out on the last page.

So awhile I do agree with the ideal end goal of this "experiment" I am highly doubtful that it will be successful in that it won't change society as a whole and it's likely to cause some psychological issues despite her good intentions as not only is she denying her child a gender but she's denying her child a sex and is subsequently putting her child at risk of extreme segregation...

Unfortunately it is very very very difficult to universally change how people view things.... If you could there would be no gender stereotyping, there would be no racism, there would be no war, etc, etc.... And then when there's mass movements to support gendertyping even before the birth... For example, those team pink, team blue and team yellow members it's damn near impossible to change... By being apart of that, you're doing much more then just declaring the sex of your baby... you're further declaring that blue is for boys, pink is for girls, and yellow is a safe gender neutral color. 

And I'm not at all trying to judge people on this... just pointing out the obvious... I do it too....


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## angelstardust

oread said:


> Am I seriously the only one who doesn't think this is bad thing?
> 
> I don't think she is doing anything bad or wrong to her child and I bet it will grow to be happy and healthy because she obviously cares about her childs desires more than societal pressures. It just freaks people out because they are so used to putting people into a strictly defined gender category. Once you find out if a child is a boy or a girl I bet you will treat it differently regardless of how unbiased you think you are.
> Start paying attention to how often people tell little girls they are pretty. Honestly, its about the only compliment people give to little girls. How often do you tell a little girl that she is smart and capable? Or do you just compliment her outfit and hand her a doll?
> 
> Honestly I think giving little girls dolls is a lot more twisted than letting your child decide for themselves what gender role they want to follow. It doesn't sound like this mother is _forcing_ anything onto her child. But what are you doing when you give a little girl a doll and kitchen playset? You are basically telling her her role in society is to clean and pop out babies. It makes me really sad to see little girls forced into the role of a mother when they are just babies themselves - not that being a mom isn't a wonderful thing, but we shouldn't be trained into it as toddlers and told that is our only value. Little boys are also trained by society to use certain toys and behave in certain ways, and I see no problem with this women not allowing people to pressure her child into the boxes they are used to.
> 
> I don't plan on going that far myself, but I can see why she wants to let her child explore gender roles as they grow and develop. I guess we will have to wait and see, but if anything I think it will be good for the child to have that kind of freedom to chose for itself.

What a load of rubbish! 

DS2 was pretty today when he decided to have his face painted as a cute rabbit. 

DD was clever when she tidied up her crayons. 

DS1 was sweet when he pretended the baby doll had a stinky nappy. 

DS2 then decided the baby doll needed some fresh air and took it out the back to throw it about a bit. 

DD then decided her train needed a cuddle. 

DS1 decided the same (although now dirty) baby doll was a Zombie baby and should eat DD's brains. DD thought that was the finnist thing of the day. 

I have not trained any of them in any way. I did try to train them to clean up but that was a failure, DD only does it because she likes to put things in a bag and then take them back out. 

I can't see anything twisted about that baby doll except the fact that the batteries are dying and it sounds constipated.


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## Jody R

PeanutBean said:


> Jody R said:
> 
> 
> I agree, there is a lot more to identity than gender but *it's not "holding them captive" to acknowledge their gender in their name or the way they are dressed*. Just about everyone would use gender as a way to identify themselves if they were asked to describe who they were. Try saying to anybody "tell me about yourself" and most of them will come back to you with gender markers, often along with their age and where they come from and what job they do. It doesn't mean they are a stereotype or held captive by their gender when they do it, it just is so much a part of us and who we are, it's not the whole of who we are, but it plays it's own important part. :flower:
> 
> I agree that the name is not so much an issue but disagree about clothes. They are huge markers of gender stereotyping and can have a negative effect. Look at the little girls in playboy branded clothing wearing tiny skirts and knee boots. If that's not gender stereotyping having a negative effect on girls then I don't know what is.
> 
> I also disagree with what you say about how people identify themselves. They probably will identify their sex but that is different from gender. Sex is male/female but gender is a set of characteristics or personality traits deemed to be wherever along the scale of masculine to feminine. I would say I love flowers and ponies and stars and love hearts if I was introducing myself to someone...Click to expand...

Oh I agree very much about the Playboy brand but I don't think it applies to all clothes. Not every little girl wearing pink is wearing Playboy and there is a massive difference between a little girl in a plain pink t-shirt and a little girl in a Playboy pink t-shirt or one that says "Future WAG" on it. My husband owns a pink t-shirt but I doubt you'd ever see him in a Playboy one.

I don't think we can entirely seperate sex from gender though. If we could, transexuals perhaps wouldn't feel the need to change their clothes and bodies to corespond with their feeling of being born the wrong sex/gender. 

And what sex a person is does very often deem their characteristics and personality traits in masculine and feminine ways because the hormones of men and women are different and give us some of those traits and characteristics. 

I think I've wandered from my point though, which is that being male or female and having typical (or stereotypical preferences) is nothing to be ashamed of. People may say your love of flowers and ponies and stars and love hearts is stereotypically female but that doesn't necessarily mean they are right and I'm sure it wouldn't make you decide you actually prefered more stereotypically male things instead.

Personally if I had to describe myself I would say I am a 35 year old mother of three who loves books and dogs and artwork made from words and letters and walks in the woods in the autumn, my favourite foods are lemon chicken with egg fried rice and chilli salmon and my favourite colour is (perhaps ironically) blue. 

I think these parents taking gender neutrality to the extremes of hiding their childs sex (which they have done by not allowing people to change nappies and see it) or gender (by refusing to tell anyone if their child is a boy or a girl) are wrong to play with their child's life in this way.

Hiding their child's sex/gender and singling him or her out in such a way won't help change the world or convince other parents to do the same or stop clothes designers and toy makers from producing everything for 'girls' in bubblegum pink. 

I think those attitudes and stereotypes can be changed and broken but I think they are trying to do so in very much the wrong way.


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## peanut56

When children get old enough, they will choose the colours they like and the toys they want to play with. My parents painted my room pink when I was a child. When I was 13, I decided I didn't like it, and chose to repaint it a different colour. Big deal. I had Barbies and My Little Ponies when I was little. I also played with my brothers GI Joe's and wrestling dolls (sorry, action figures). Oh, and I had a kitchen playset. I didn't learn that my role in society was to clean and have babies from playing with my kitchen playset. To me, that's ridiculous. It's not the colours children wear and the toys they play with that teach them their "role" in society. I see it as MY job to teach my little girl that she's more than just a maid and baby maker in society. 
I'm sorry, I respect other people's opinions, but I still think this is ridiculous.


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## PeanutBean

I still think sex and gender are technical terms for specific things. Transexuals want to change their body because they feel they are the wrong sex. That's not gender. I don't know if you've read all the thread but in my previous posts I referred to research that demonstrates that gender displays a normal distribution throughout the population, ie most people fall in the middle irrespective of sex. By the way I don't particularly like those things, they were examples of the few things that little girls are supposed to like according to consumer choice. I've also said in previous posts that I don't think a masquerade such as this is the correct way to challenge stereotypes. Better to let boys grow their hair, become primary teachers, get girls to mountain bike and be scientists, or similar. There's no triumph in trumping society's pigeon holing if it was done through secrecy.


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## tommyg

Ozzieshunni said:


> Hmmmm, I've skimmed most of the posts and I like the idea of raising a child not to feel bad about which toys they play with regardless of gender, but I don't think I would go as far as ungendering my child (hee hee, I made up a word). BUT in working in childcare and nursery, I have found that some people are very intolerant of children straying outside of gender norms, especially parents who don't know about child development or who were raised with strong gender roles.
> 
> An example came from my friend who worked in a nursery. They had this pink faery dress and for some reason all the boys wanted to dress up in it. One mum came in and giggled and thought it was great her son was exploring all toys. One dad came in and went ballistic.
> In this day and age, do we really need to degender children? Shouldn't we know by now that kids are prone to play with all kinds of toys, especially at a young age as they are exploring different roles?

I do believe that men have more issues with their sons playing with girls toys than the other way around. My BiL was never happy to see his son (about 3)play with a dolls buggy even although it was a ball that was in the buggy.

I'd be intrested to know how many DS's on the forum have a baby type doll (Action Man doesn't count) verses how many DD's have a truck in their toy collection.


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## Mummy2B21

I dont mean this in a bad way, but maybe the baby was born with both bits and she is deciding to let baby choose itself or see what its personality turns out to be. Writing that i dont know where that idea just came from lol but i do think the lady is a bit barmy.


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## rachael872211

Like someone mentioned earlier its your hormones that will play a HUGE part in how you are as a gender, not society. This child is just going to grow up confused. 

Society plays a part yes, but what is the problem with a girl being a girl and a boy being a boy. Regardless of being a girl I still liked playing with toy cars and action men married my barbies rather than ken? Oh and my brother joined in with playing this too. 



KandyKinz said:


> And then when there's mass movements to support gendertyping even before the birth... For example, those team pink, team blue and team yellow members it's damn near impossible to change... By being apart of that, you're doing much more then just declaring the sex of your baby... you're further declaring that blue is for boys, pink is for girls, and yellow is a safe gender neutral color.

What is wrong with being on team blue or team pink.......yeah it is saying that pink is associated with girls and blue is associated with boys.....but we are not the ones trying to be gender nuetral?


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## KandyKinz

rachael872211 said:


> Like someone mentioned earlier its your hormones that will play a HUGE part in how you are as a gender, not society. This child is just going to grow up confused.
> 
> Society plays a part yes, but what is the problem with a girl being a girl and a boy being a boy. Regardless of being a girl I still liked playing with toy cars and action men married my barbies rather than ken? Oh and my brother joined in with playing this too.
> 
> 
> 
> KandyKinz said:
> 
> 
> And then when there's mass movements to support gendertyping even before the birth... For example, those team pink, team blue and team yellow members it's damn near impossible to change... By being apart of that, you're doing much more then just declaring the sex of your baby... you're further declaring that blue is for boys, pink is for girls, and yellow is a safe gender neutral color.
> 
> What is wrong with being on team blue or team pink.......yeah it is saying that pink is associated with girls and blue is associated with boys.....but we are not the ones trying to be gender nuetral?Click to expand...

Did I state there was something wrong with it? No... So please don't treat it as such... I was just commenting that we as a society have a tendency to genderize our children and impose culturally created gender beliefs on them prior to them even being born. I strongly believe that the predisposition to believe that blue is for boys and pink is for girls is entirely culturally created as opposed to being fueled by hormones and this is supported by the fact that gender "colors" have changed overtime and are not static across different cultures.


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## PeanutBean

Tommyg we are currently looking for a baby doll for our boy as he loves playing with them and we want him to have his own baby when ours arrive. Unfortunately they are all pink with a very tiny number of blue and we'd quite like a more interesting one so we're still looking.


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## Jody R

PeanutBean said:


> Tommyg we are currently looking for a baby doll for our boy as he loves playing with them and we want him to have his own baby when ours arrive. Unfortunately they are all pink with a very tiny number of blue and we'd quite like a more interesting one so we're still looking.

https://www.amazon.com/Soft-Baby-Doll-Tuc-Collection-blue/dp/B00144G672

But in the spirit of the thread, why not get him a pink one lol :flower:

Joseph has a little boy doll and he was horrified by it. My mum bought it for him in Belgium and he hated it and it scares me. :haha:


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## PeanutBean

Because I hate pink! If I have a girl I will endeavour to get no pink if it can at all be avoided!

A lot of them do weird things too which is another problem!


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## Jody R

PeanutBean said:


> Because I hate pink! If I have a girl I will endeavour to get no pink if it can at all be avoided!
> 
> A lot of them do weird things too which is another problem!

Are the weird things the sort of things that belong on the shoe selling thread? :haha:

You do realise that if you hate pink sods law says if you have a girl she will love it and want stuff in every shade of pink don't you?


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## PeanutBean

Thanks for the link btw but I'm after a fairly lifelike one, and preferably not blue either! Lol. There was a bathtime one with a yellow towel and a nappy but it seems only available in the states.


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## Jody R

PeanutBean said:


> Thanks for the link btw but I'm after a fairly lifelike one, and preferably not blue either! Lol. There was a bathtime one with a yellow towel and a nappy but it seems only available in the states.

You're welcome.

How about this one on ebay? https://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Baby-Boy-Dol...pt=UK_Doll_Bears_Dolls_EH&hash=item2a0aedde60


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## PeanutBean

Shoe selling thread?!! What does that mean? Lol

Yes it's a risk we run particularly once they start school but I managed to not grow up liking pink ever so it must be possible. When I was small I succumbed to peer pressure and asked for a barbie and ken. My mum got crystal ken and peaches and cream barbie at great expense fir Christmas and really I didn't like them. Hated barbie and could never get over ken's sparkly socks even as a very little girl! :rofl: Should've asked for roller skating Cindy which is what I really wanted. She would've made q good match for action man. I suspect I'm just not a big fan of anyone who is very iffeminate whatever their sex!


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## PeanutBean

You know I haven't actually looked on eBay! :dohh: That one looks like a museum piece though. I was interested in getting an anatomically correct girl so he could learn that boys and girls have different bits but they all seem to be scrawny newborns for some reason. I'd like one he can take of, either bathing or nappies. Another bone of contention is they mostly come with bottles and dummies. While looking around I also found accessories of bottles with juice in!


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## Jody R

PeanutBean said:


> Shoe selling thread?!! What does that mean? Lol
> 
> Yes it's a risk we run particularly once they start school but I managed to not grow up liking pink ever so it must be possible. When I was small I succumbed to peer pressure and asked for a barbie and ken. My mum got crystal ken and peaches and cream barbie at great expense fir Christmas and really I didn't like them. Hated barbie and could never get over ken's sparkly socks even as a very little girl! :rofl: Should've asked for roller skating Cindy which is what I really wanted. She would've made q good match for action man. I suspect I'm just not a big fan of anyone who is very iffeminate whatever their sex!

Haven't you seen the shoe selling thread in GS? You've missed a treat, but I warn you it will take you all night to read and some of it is a bit out there. If you have a fondness for woodlice don't look for it.


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## PeanutBean

Shoe selling and woodlice?! I don't often go in gs, when I spare few hours I might pop by.


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## Jody R

PeanutBean said:


> You know I haven't actually looked on eBay! :dohh: That one looks like a museum piece though. I was interested in getting an anatomically correct girl so he could learn that boys and girls have different bits but they all seem to be scrawny newborns for some reason. I'd like one he can take of, either bathing or nappies. Another bone of contention is they mostly come with bottles and dummies. While looking around I also found accessories of bottles with juice in!

The ones at our Stay and Play group are scrawny newborns too and they have the bottles and dummies and the fluid in the bottles is orange coloured. I think I had two twin baby dolls when I was little, a boy and girl who were anatomically correct and not scrawny, but I can't remember what they were called to search and see if they still make them.

I never was much of a doll person though, I prefered teddy bears to dolls.


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## angelstardust

https://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Baby-Doll-Ba...pt=UK_Doll_Bears_Dolls_EH&hash=item19bf8d0d7e

https://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Baby-Doll-Ba...pt=UK_Doll_Bears_Dolls_EH&hash=item588a009e18

If you search for 'anatomically correct doll' on eBay, ignore the gay pride figurines, there is a large selection of plain boy or girl bathable dolls in a wide range of etheticities. 

Then you can buy your own choice of clothing. The 16inch dolls wear the tiny baby size sleepsuits. I only know that because my niece had one that size and we gave her the boys prem sized clothing. Also the prem nappies fit that size. Those dolls are bigger than my DS1 was!


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## mummymadness

only just read this thread, Its disturbing to that poor child where it will belong in life.. Yes all Children can choose what toys they play with, My Layla loves Dr who (Much to my annoyance it drives me insane) And Oscar has a Big play Hoover to open this xmas as thats what he loves the most :).. I will let them all decide wether they will want to climb trees or paint there nails .. But we have a Gender for a reason to reproduce is one main one and also legal issues,One day in the near Future this child will start school or nursery and of course The mum will have to fill forms out .. Then what ?? Is she going to try let this child know it doesnt have a place or tick any box i think more then trying to stop social stigma with certain genders she will be pushing this child to be more confused and unsure were to belong.

Its very very very sad and selfish in my opinion xxxxx


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## PeanutBean

I'm starting to get quite irritated by the misunderstanding in this thread about the meaning of the word gender so here is a link to the World Health Organisation that quite clearly explains that sex is biological and gender is sociological:
https://www.who.int/gender/whatisgender/en/index.html
So no we don't have gender for reproductive reasons.

Quite a lot of the responses in this thread exactly highlight the reason for this woman's actions. Comments such as the child won't have a place without a gender are exactly the point of why the mother is doing it. Gender should be irrelevant.


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## KandyKinz

PeanutBean said:


> I'm starting to get quite irritated by the misunderstanding in this thread about the meaning of the word gender so here is a link to the World Health Organisation that quite clearly explains that sex is biological and gender is sociological:
> https://www.who.int/gender/whatisgender/en/index.html
> So no we don't have gender for reproductive reasons.
> 
> Quite a lot of the responses in this thread exactly highlight the reason for this woman's actions. Comments such as the child won't have a place without a gender are exactly the point of why the mother is doing it. Gender should be irrelevant.


Very well said! :thumbup:


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## BellaBlu

I cant believe anyone would willingly use their child for an "experiment" regardless..
Especially something that she has no idea how it will affect the child later in life!


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## PeanutBean

I believe that everything we do with our children is an experiment as we can't predict how each individual will turn out based on our parental choices.


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## rachael872211

PeanutBean said:


> I'm starting to get quite irritated by the misunderstanding in this thread about the meaning of the word gender so here is a link to the World Health Organisation that quite clearly explains that sex is biological and gender is sociological:
> https://www.who.int/gender/whatisgender/en/index.html
> So no we don't have gender for reproductive reasons.
> 
> Quite a lot of the responses in this thread exactly highlight the reason for this woman's actions. Comments such as the child won't have a place without a gender are exactly the point of why the mother is doing it. Gender should be irrelevant.

Ok, so why is she not saying what sex the child is?


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## PeanutBean

Because she doesn't want to? :shrug: I don't see that has anything to do with my point.


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## Jody R

rachael872211 said:


> PeanutBean said:
> 
> 
> I'm starting to get quite irritated by the misunderstanding in this thread about the meaning of the word gender so here is a link to the World Health Organisation that quite clearly explains that sex is biological and gender is sociological:
> https://www.who.int/gender/whatisgender/en/index.html
> So no we don't have gender for reproductive reasons.
> 
> Quite a lot of the responses in this thread exactly highlight the reason for this woman's actions. Comments such as the child won't have a place without a gender are exactly the point of why the mother is doing it. Gender should be irrelevant.
> 
> Ok, so why is she not saying what sex the child is?Click to expand...




PeanutBean said:


> Because she doesn't want to? :shrug: I don't see that has anything to do with my point.

The link in your post is saying that sex and gender are closely related but not the same. 

Which means, she has no reason to hide the sex of her child in order to raise it gender neutral, she just needs to avoid her own perceived stereotypes and prejudices of it's gender and be firm with those who try to apply them.


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## BellaBlu

Nah, we all just do the best we can and hope that the child is going to be a good person based on the values/beliefs we've raised them on.. IMO she could go about much better ways of giving the child the self value or sense if individuality she's trying to..

You're right, we never know exactly how our children are going to turn out, but why subject them to things like this instead of just teaching them the importance of expressing yourself how THEY see fit? Isnt this a radical way to "teach" them? After all she said herself it isnt even an experiment on the child, it's on society.

It sounds like the mother herself is an attention whore, otherwise she would simply be going about her lifestyle and not doing magazine articles about it. Of course then her "social experiment" wouldn't be as wide spread.. so she has to get some media coverage right?

That poor child.


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## PeanutBean

She has to hide the sex in order for society to be unable to gender stereotype the child. The point is that the one leads to the other in the eyes of society. Many posts in this thread just prove her point. It's not her own prejudices she is trying to prevent.

I'll say again that I don't think this is the right way to go about it however I totally understand why she is doing it and that most people here can't comprehend even a bit why is just evidence towards justification of what she's doing.


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## Jody R

PeanutBean said:


> She has to hide the sex in order for society to be unable to gender stereotype the child. The point is that the one leads to the other in the eyes of society. Many posts in this thread just prove her point. It's not her own prejudices she is trying to prevent.
> 
> I'll say again that I don't think this is the right way to go about it however I totally understand why she is doing it and that most people here can't comprehend even a bit why is just evidence towards justification of what she's doing.

The thing is though, we can understand a parent not wanting their child to face gender prejudices but what she is doing to her child is not going to make any difference to society and is unfair to him or her. I don't want my son to face prejudice and I am doing my best as his mother to teach him how to be who he is and an important part of that is letting him teach me first. He has options and at this stage it is chosing a toy or a colour he wants rather than what others think is appropriate for his sex or gender.

Society, for the most part, probably don't care if she only lets her son play with dolls or only buys toy cars for her daugther in the hopes that they both grow up to be truck-driving-ballet-dancing-brain-surgeons who can both do their own ironing and fix their own cars. But I agree with the PP in that this mother has realised this and chosen to go to an extreme that forces her own child into the limelight in an unusal way for her own selfish reasons rather than as a way to educate society to their own prejudices.

Maybe sex and gender are not the same thing but even your WHO link states that they are closely related and it doesn't all have to be negative and bad. It's not just a false human stereotype and we didn't invent gender, it's shown in pretty much every species on the planet.


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## PeanutBean

Of course sex and gender are linked, gender is the expectations society has of sex but it's not a natural phenomenon, it's one that has come about through a complex array of pressure on both sexes to perform a certain way irrespective of the individual's natural inclination.

Is she doing it to make society listen or to allow her child freedom of choice? If the latter, it's a better motive but if the former, well we're all talking about it aren't we?

I'm not sure there is gender in other species. There are sexual, behavioural traits that have evolved to enable reproductive competition allowing natural selection but I don't think that's gender. Maybe in the higher apes with their more complex society, I don't know, but certainly not in every or even most species. The stereotypes applied to each sex in humans is almost entirely opposite of that seen in mammals. For the large part human stereotypes are about subjugation of women; women are weak; women are to be pretty in order to attract a man; man is strong and a financial provider. These are utterly artificial. In the wild in pretty much every mammalian species, and indeed non-mammalian where there is sexual reproduction through intercourse, it is the female which chooses the male mate, the male which is to perform either with beauty or some physical prowess for the laws of sexual reproduction are that the female has the guaranteed chance of reproduction and the male which does not. This is born out in evidence that during difficult times where food is scarce more females are born.

And this is WHY the gender stereotyping issue is so thorny, emotive and important. In its heart it is largely a feminist issue.


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## angelstardust

Some species do have genders. 

A type of deer has two male genders, one who grow antlers and another who don't. 

A species of bird has two male and female genders and a 90% breeding rate that one type of male will mate with one type of female. 

Just off the top of my head, but if you google you can find more. Mostly, there will be more than one male gender, it is rare to find more than one female gender.


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## PeanutBean

Hmm I'd need to look into but in the deer if one is growing antlers and another not that must have some selective/biological cause which wouldn't really be classed as gender. Anyway I didn't say I thought there couldn't be any genders just that certainly most species don't have gender.

If I stop feeling sick a bit I might have a look into it later. Too bleurgh to think straight today.


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## KandyKinz

PeanutBean said:


> Hmm I'd need to look into but in the deer if one is growing antlers and another not that must have some selective/biological cause which wouldn't really be classed as gender. Anyway I didn't say I thought there couldn't be any genders just that certainly most species don't have gender.
> 
> If I stop feeling sick a bit I might have a look into it later. Too bleurgh to think straight today.

I agree that growing antlers is more biological/genetic than a gender.... As gender is a human construction of our choices and thoughts whereas I am sure those deer don't make a conscious decision as to whether or not they are the type to sport antlers.


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## tommyg

Peanutbean, just picking up from a few posts ago have you looked at a "tiny tears" doll from argos? I was looking for a doll for my friends daughter that could go in the bath and it was one of the few on the market that didn't have batteries or a soft body.


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## SIEGAL

I didn't read through the entire thread (got stir crazy by page 9). But I was watching a documentary once and in several countries, I think one is Samoa, men wear skirts and baby boys wear pink! And the men still grow up to be men. I don't think its colors or clothes or toys that determine gender, its ingrained (hopefully correctly to make life easier); but on the other hand, not letting the child know their gender until its explained to them or be reffered to as a boy or girl I am sure can be very confusing and kinda cruel.


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## Sherileigh

Personally I think it's cruel and quite useless. I think a lot of kids in my experience behave a certain way based on their genders. My son for example. He's only 16 months old. He has fairly neutral toys, a couple of cars, but mostly teddys and just little toddler stuff. He has 4 girl cousins...so he plays with strollers and dolls etc. We got him a kitchen for xmas which I know he'll love because he plays with his cousins. BUT he plays with his toys very differently than his cousins. He bashes thinks. He likes to pound on things and make noise. He like to take things apart, hit things and yell. Lol, he's a boy! Yet we're not pushing boy traits on him, he's just like that? :shrug: I think the same will happen with this child. But I do think they'll screw it up royally in the process.


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## PeanutBean

Siegal - that's what's culturally accepted in that society so the effect will not be comparable for the same specific things. For example it could be men not wearing skirts in that society that people think it weird a compromise to masculinity. Each culture has it's own way of gender stereotyping. There are still here and there some very matriarchal societies where it is the women that will dominate and have a different gender role but the vast majority are patriarchal. What your post really does show is that societies construct the role and colours and clothes are symbols of the role without exerting an effect in their own individual right because of course they don't, they're just colours and clothes. It's the meaning we place on them that is significant.

By the way I spent a good 40 minutes searching the Internet last night and couldn't find a single account of gender in animals nor these deer which I also specifically searched for. Feel free to provide links. I'd rather search the scientific literature on sexual evolution and animal behaviour but I can't do that at home. I did however find an astonishing amount if misuse of the word gender. My suspicion is that it is accepted practice to refer to sex as gender when talking about non-human animals. Probably because there is no social construct akin to what we see in humans.


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## Jody R

gen·der (jndr)
n.
1. Grammar 
a. A grammatical category used in the classification of nouns, pronouns, adjectives, and, in some languages, verbs that may be arbitrary or based on characteristics such as sex or animacy and that determines agreement with or selection of modifiers, referents, or grammatical forms.
b. One category of such a set.
c. The classification of a word or grammatical form in such a category.
d. The distinguishing form or forms used.
2. Sexual identity, especially in relation to society or culture.
3. 
a. The condition of being female or male; sex.
b. Females or males considered as a group: expressions used by one gender.
tr.v. gen·dered, gen·der·ing, gen·ders 
To engender.

https://www.chimpanzoo.org/african_notecards/chapter_5.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biology_of_gender This link touchs on the gender of animals enough to give you a starting point. 

I think I'm about done on this thread now, when I found myself googling 'rats sex hormones' on a beautiful Sunday morning when we could be in the park I knew it was time to call it a day :haha: 

Because to be honest nothing is going to convince me that all aspects of gender are made up for evil purposes by society no matter which of the dictionary definitions of it's meaning we prefer or that the only way we can help our children to break the parts of the stereotypes that are bad is to hide their sex/gender from the world.


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## live_in_hope

Hey, interesting thread...

I haven't read all of it but there are so many things I could say about it, mainly negative, it is clearly an experiement for her and will undoubtably affect the poor child as it gets older.

It just won't be possible to carry on this act when it reaches school for example. I mean in primary school, they get changed for PE in the classroom, I'm sure a group of 7yr olds would find it very confusing if their friend XX came in with pig-tails and summer dress then got unchanged only to expose a pair of spiderman boxer shorts with a penis shaped bulge? and at 7yrs old, the only thing they will do will be to laugh and ridicule....poor thing :nope:

and what about when it reaches secondary school and changing rooms are split. I dont know about you but if a boy got the choice of whether it wanted to be a girl for the day on a day that they have PE, then you know they would as then they'd get to go into the changing rooms for a good old oggle!


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## PeanutBean

Jody R said:


> Because to be honest nothing is going to convince me that all aspects of gender are made up for evil purposes by society no matter which of the dictionary definitions of it's meaning we prefer or that the only way we can help our children to break the parts of the stereotypes that are bad is to hide their sex/gender from the world.

No-one has said that all (or indeed any) aspects of gender are made up for the evil purposes of society! The gender roles have evolved in much the same way as biological traits do through a process of selection. The difference being that society is the source of the pressure driving selection rather than population and survival processes.

The is undoubtedly an effect in our culture here that leads to women earning less overall, earning less for doing the same jobs as men, not having anything like proportional representation at the top of any field or career and for young girls to largely aspire to bring pretty popstars or hairdressers with no thoughts of any 'male' career paths.

Just because the history of our society has pushed us towards these limiting roles that doesn't mean we should sit back and accept them as our lot when we're perfectly capable of more. Look at how much better girls are performing in schools since educational changes opened the doors to other styles of teaching rather than those that have been used for boys for the past 200 years? It's just a shame they leave school with A*s to do beauty nvqs or go into great careers with nothing but a glass ceiling to look forward to.

But I agree, again, that hiding the sex of a child is probably not the most productive way to challenge these stereotypes.


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## PeanutBean

Thanks for the links btw. The first one about chimps was nothing new, behaviours sexually dimorphic behaviours are to be expected in pretty much any animals that has sexual reproduction, certainly those who copulate (something I have already referred to I think) and I'm not at all surprised to see such a thing in chimps. The more societal an animal the more likely it is to have specific behaviours that relate to the role within reproduction. These are still all different than the human gender stereotyping. When someone shows me research that proves that female hormones mean women are incapable of performing in a high powered job I'll let the issue rest.

The wiki link was very interesting but I'm not sure it contradicted anything I've said. As a definition it simply said the field considered aspects such as gender roles etc in addition to sexual dimorphism based behaviour. What we're discussing here is gender roles.


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## Sophist

PeanutBean said:


> She has to hide the sex in order for society to be unable to gender stereotype the child. The point is that the one leads to the other in the eyes of society. Many posts in this thread just prove her point. It's not her own prejudices she is trying to prevent.
> 
> I'll say again that I don't think this is the right way to go about it however I totally understand why she is doing it and that most people here can't comprehend even a bit why is just evidence towards justification of what she's doing.

I tend to think that what she's doing is going to make her child ashamed of his/her sex. 

Compare the implications:
"She has to hide the race in order for society to be unable to stereotype the child."

I agree its not the right way to go about it, and I believe its harmful.

Several pages back someone said that buying your daughter a kitchen set teaches her her role in life is to cook & clean. I bought my son a kitchen set at about 2 years old. He really wanted one. It was not to teach him anything about gender roles-- everyone needs to eat, therefore everyone needs to cook. He enjoys pretending to cook (based on helping in church nursery, I think most toddlers do.) So why is it wrong to buy one for my daughter if she wants one? At the same time, my children see both their parents cooking, so I believe that sends a more powerful message about "what boys do" or "what girls do." Traditionally in DH's family the women cook & clean up. I told DH in no uncertain terms would our children ever see me in the kitchen waiting on the men--he has to do his share because I won't send that message to my kids that its "womens work." 

Also some have said that giving a girl a girl toy or a pink shirt is subjecting her to the parents prejudice. I never bought pink for my daughter at first. By age 2, she had a pink radar and would gravitate to pink anything in the store. I resisted it, because I don't love pink. I would buy her brown outfits (brown is my favorite color, I think its so sophisticated) and she hated them. Finally I started choosing clothes to her taste, rather than mine, and the getting dressed conflicts have stopped. I think its just as wrong for me to push my favorite color on a child as it would be to push her to wear pink "because she's a girl". Children do have preferences (prob not as infants, but by age 2-3 they certainly do) and just because a preference falls in line with a gender stereotype doesn't mean the parents are forcing it. My daughter loves glitter, neon pink, boas, etc. The gaudier the better. It's completely opposite of my personality and what I would choose for her--but I've decided to allow her to express herself, and I love getting to know the person she is, rather than the person I originally envisioned she would be--even though she's extremely "feminine" in her clothing & hair preferences. Meantime she also loves sports, climbing trees, legos (regular ones, not "girl" ones), and wants to enroll in karate classes.


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## PeanutBean

I've just read this comment piece in the Guardian and thought of this thread. Might be of interest to some of you.

https://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/nov/14/women-men-differences-science-stereotypes


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## Weezie123

Dont know if anyone has mentioned this case of David Reimer but it does help to show gender identity is not just determined by society.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer


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