# For those of us that DON'T send the kids to nursery



## marley2580

We are not doing the wrong thing:thumbup:

https://www.imfcanada.org/issues/nurturing-children-why-early-learning-does-not-help

(disclaimer - this is not to make those who do send their kids to nursery feel guilty)


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## Tacey

Thank you! I've had my confidence shaken a bit by the horrified look I get when I say we're not taking the 15 free hours. This helps a lot!


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## OmarsMum

Thank you! 

We went to a play area yesterday, school started last week, we were the only ones there! It seems that those days sending toddlers to a nursery is the norm. 

Sometimes I feel that I didn't make the right choice as Omar is so attached to me. This article is reassuring. Thanks xx


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## aliss

^Same for us, I am the "odd ball" out in that EVERYONE uses nursery here, whether or not they are working or at school (it's almost free for everyone). Most women I speak to can't understand why I do not keep him at nursery all day even though I don't have a job.


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## freckleonear

Brilliant article, thank you.

I feel the same @OmarsMum, my DD is soooo attached to me compared to my DS at that age, so sometimes I do have doubts about whether I'm doing the right thing. I know it's normal really, but when everyone else thinks it isn't it can be hard.

The picture of all the little children lined up colouring made me feel so sad for some reason. :(


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## XJessicaX

Neither is wrong or right. Its just about what we want as parents! I don't do attachment parenting, I wouldn't be able to function with that sort of relationship with my daughter! Sounds terribly selfish I know but I like her 2 days at nursery, I love 'me' time. I enjoy her being so independent and not clingy when she is at home and how refreshed I feel seeing her. I have no qualms about her development whatsoever and a lot of that I do believe IS down to nursery! 
The article is very interesting though and I am glad I don't send her more than 2 days a week (I say day but its 0830-0330 so not too long)


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## aliss

Mine's not clingy at all anymore :( Never thought I'd see the day lol.


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## Natsku

I'm glad I don't have to send Maria to nursery, I hope she wouldn't have to go til she goes to preschool at 6 but of course I'll have to start working before then, but the longer I can wait the better I'll feel as she doesn't like large groups of children and she's such a free spirit she'd hate structured activities.


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## lozzy21

Jessica i think you have got the wrong idea about attachment parenting. Im an AP but i look forward to those 3 hours i have on a wednesday after i finish work and before i need to get Niamh from nursery. Doing AP doesnt mean you have to have your child glued to you 24/7.


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## aliss

Agreed, plenty of AP moms even work full time right from 6 weeks. It's not about that at all.


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## lozzy21

Some of us even have nights out and ship baby off to grandma's.:winkwink:


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## XJessicaX

I possibly do have the wrong idea. I guess from seeing friends who AP (I am from Cambridge and its a very middle class way of parenting I find so very common here!) I see very clingy (dislike the word clingy) children very dependant on their mothers which isn't a bad thing!!....just not for me. I guess I am only seeing a small snippet of attachment parenting though. B&B is another place which confirmed my thoughts on it but once again I may just be seeing it wrong. So many posts from parents who AP who are worried about development, social issues and sleeping!


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## OmarsMum

lozzy21 said:


> Some of us even have nights out and ship baby off to grandma's.:winkwink:

This :rofl:


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## lozzy21

Some people take it too far but done properly you encourage your child to have relationships with daddy and other family members and to not only depend on mummy. A lot of people follow AP ideas and not realise they are doing it.

You might find more posts from AP mums because if we ask for advice in RL the only advice we get is to leave baby to cry so we need to ask places where people understand more"


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## aliss

^True

And a lot of parents start using AP methods because they have a difficult/fussy baby, not because they created one. When you're dealing with a certain personality, all those little tips of "let them get used to the light/vacuum" or "let them self settle" doesn't always work. Of course, people with more easygoing babies may still choose AP methods but some of us do it as we really had no alternative, it helped us cope.


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## XJessicaX

Ahh, interesting! 

Anyways...sorry OP to hijack thread. I think if a mother has the patience and is able to have kids at home full time then brilliant and I salute you all. I however have the patience and tolerance of a...erm....toddler!


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## Tacey

aliss said:


> ^True
> 
> And a lot of parents start using AP methods because they have a difficult/fussy baby, not because they created one. When you're dealing with a certain personality, all those little tips of "let them get used to the light/vacuum" or "let them self settle" doesn't always work. Of course, people with more easygoing babies may still choose AP methods but some of us do it as we really had no alternative, it helped us cope.

This is very true. We fell into AP with Alice because it was the only thing we could do. If a baby screams hysterically every time you put them down (and I'm not talking 'fussing') any parent worthy of the name would pick them up. She's still sensitive now, but very independent. Arthur is incredibly easy going, and I'm sure would be just fine being parented in a more mainstream way, but I think AP is best.


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## aliss

XJessicaX said:


> Ahh, interesting!
> 
> Anyways...sorry OP to hijack thread. I think if a mother has the patience and is able to have kids at home full time then brilliant and I salute you all. I however have the patience and tolerance of a...erm....toddler!

I'd use nursery 2x a week too if #2 wasn't coming!!! Would've registered in a language class. I also like using the gym's daycare!! :)


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## OmarsMum

XJessicaX said:


> I possibly do have the wrong idea. I guess from seeing friends who AP (I am from Cambridge and its a very middle class way of parenting I find so very common here!) I see very clingy (dislike the word clingy) children very dependant on their mothers which isn't a bad thing!!....just not for me. I guess I am only seeing a small snippet of attachment parenting though. B&B is another place which confirmed my thoughts on it but once again I may just be seeing it wrong. So many posts from parents who AP who are worried about development, social issues and sleeping!

Sorry I have to step in, your post is a bit rude. 1st this is not a debate thread. 

I don't understand how not sending a toddler to a nursery is related to AP. I'm not an AP parent!

Many AP parents have to go back to work & their kids are either in nurseries or child minders. 

Omar was FFed & TWed, he slept in a cot until 14 months, I never baby wore or used cloth. He moved to our bed at 14 months as he was sick all the time because of ongoing teething & it worked fine for us. 

At your LO's age, Omar was social, he was laid back, he wasn't so picky, & he wasn't bothered about me. But toddlers needs change! 

I don't understand how Omar's sensory or sleep issues are related to not sending him to a nursery or AP :shrug:

He's a highly sensitive child, I don't want to sound like bragging but until now I didn't see a toddler who's as smart as my son. He speaks two languages & he's learning a 3rd, his speech & learning development is similar to a 5 years old.


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## XJessicaX

aliss said:


> XJessicaX said:
> 
> 
> Ahh, interesting!
> 
> Anyways...sorry OP to hijack thread. I think if a mother has the patience and is able to have kids at home full time then brilliant and I salute you all. I however have the patience and tolerance of a...erm....toddler!
> 
> I'd use nursery 2x a week too if #2 wasn't coming!!! Would've registered in a language class. I also like using the gym's daycare!! :)Click to expand...

I love that Tabby will have a sibling reasonably close in age. However I was concious that the limpet wouldn't have the same undivided attention if I were to have Tabby at home all week, and Tabby would be bored being stuck at home whilst the limpet is attached to me! I wanted it to be fair so Tabs will go to nursery twice a week for fun and games (which she truly enjoys and is part of her routine) and I can have some baby bonding time. Once limpet is 6 months or so I will take Tabs out of nursery!


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## aliss

What 3rd language?

We're thinking of adding Spanish in with his already French and English. There is a prescholaire here (which is age 2-3 equivalent of preschool nursery) that offers trilingual education and I'm thinking about it.


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## aliss

XJessicaX said:


> aliss said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> XJessicaX said:
> 
> 
> Ahh, interesting!
> 
> Anyways...sorry OP to hijack thread. I think if a mother has the patience and is able to have kids at home full time then brilliant and I salute you all. I however have the patience and tolerance of a...erm....toddler!
> 
> I'd use nursery 2x a week too if #2 wasn't coming!!! Would've registered in a language class. I also like using the gym's daycare!! :)Click to expand...
> 
> I love that Tabby will have a sibling reasonably close in age. However I was concious that the limpet wouldn't have the same undivided attention if I were to have Tabby at home all week, and Tabby would be bored being stuck at home whilst the limpet is attached to me! I wanted it to be fair so Tabs will go to nursery twice a week for fun and games (which she truly enjoys and is part of her routine) and I can have some baby bonding time. Once limpet is 6 months or so I will take Tabs out of nursery!Click to expand...

I would have done the same if OH wasn't home 6-9 months parental leave.


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## XJessicaX

OmarsMum said:


> XJessicaX said:
> 
> 
> I possibly do have the wrong idea. I guess from seeing friends who AP (I am from Cambridge and its a very middle class way of parenting I find so very common here!) I see very clingy (dislike the word clingy) children very dependant on their mothers which isn't a bad thing!!....just not for me. I guess I am only seeing a small snippet of attachment parenting though. B&B is another place which confirmed my thoughts on it but once again I may just be seeing it wrong. So many posts from parents who AP who are worried about development, social issues and sleeping!
> 
> Sorry I have to step in, your post is a bit rude. 1st this is not a debate thread.
> 
> I don't understand how not sending a toddler to a nursery is related to AP. I'm not an AP parent!
> 
> Many AP parents have to go back to work & their kids are either in nurseries or child minders.
> 
> Omar was FFed & TWed, he slept in a cot until 14 months, I never baby wore or used cloth. He moved to our bed at 14 months as he was sick all the time because of ongoing teething & it worked fine for us.
> 
> At your LO's age, Omar was social, he was laid back, he wasn't so picky, & he wasn't bothered about me. But toddlers needs change!
> 
> I don't understand how Omar's sensory or sleep issues are related to not sending him to a nursery or AP :shrug:
> 
> He's a highly sensitive child, I don't want to sound like bragging but until now I didn't see a toddler who's as smart as my son. He speaks two languages & he's learning a 3rd, his speech & learning development is similar to a 5 years old.Click to expand...

Not debating at all! My entire post was me saying "I am sorry if I have got it wrong but this is why"
And I wasn't referring to you at ALL in my post??! If you read into that as it all being about you then its not me being rude, more you having issues with whatever you are worrying about! Sorry...your name did not even cross my mind when writing that! I was mainly on about Baby club where I still reside most of the time!


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## OmarsMum

aliss said:


> What 3rd language?
> 
> We're thinking of adding Spanish in with his already French and English. There is a prescholaire here (which is age 2-3 equivalent of preschool nursery) that offers trilingual education and I'm thinking about it.

Tagalogue :) our housekeeper is from the Philipines, he learned body parts, shapes & colours in tagalogue, he learned to count to 10 in spanish from Dora. & he uses some Spanish words. 

He will learn French in school as a 3rd language. I know the basics, so I can help :)


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## OmarsMum

Jessica- (sorry I'm not quoting on phone)

I know you weren't referring to me in your post , I used our situation as an example only xxx


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## Ozzieshunni

I don't think I'll send Alex to nursery here. I'm a certified preschool teacher so I can manage. We are starting a toddler group tomorrow and I'm very curious to see how the parents react to my parenting style....I have a feeling if Alex wants BF'd, I'm going to get some strange looks :nope:


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## mummy2be...

Can someone just tell me what ap is in a nutshell? I don't know if I do it or not. Lol


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## aliss

Tis okay Ozzi, they'll at worst, just write you off as a west coast hippie! At least that's what they do to me :rofl:


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## Ozzieshunni

Attachment Parenting is responding to your child's needs. We don't do CIO/CC or any type of baby training. It comes from Dr. Sears. I think if you google it, you'll get the basic principles.


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## Ozzieshunni

aliss said:


> Tis okay Ozzi, they'll at worst, just write you off as a west coast hippie! At least that's what they do to me :rofl:

:rofl: That California girl!


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## mummy2be...

Ok I'll Google. Thanks


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## louandivy

Ahhhh this is a great read! Funnily enough I have literally just got off the phone with a nursery after arranging a viewing on thursday - we are only planning on one morning a week unless Ivy needs more to settle in properly as I need the time to concentrate on my degree and /ivy really loves being around other children. I would have been happy not sending her at all if she didn't seem ready though, I know she is thriving regardless. I don't know about other mums but because /ivy is a July baby I feel like I lose out on a whole year with her once she starts school compared to mums of September babies! I have always felt guilty for not sending her to nursery though, people act like she is going to end up socially impaired because of it.


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## RileysMummy

Millicent doesn't go to nursery here atm as we would have to pay for it (quite expensive) she imo is perfectly fine for her age development wise and I don't need the break or feel we need time away from eachother.

However, when we move back to the UK next summer I plan to put her name down for the nursery to start Jan 2014, to use her 15 free hours so I can do some studying. Once we're back I'm hoping to go to college part time and fit it around her but we'll see.

x


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## RedRose

Yeah this is something I think about a lot. I don't know what the right answer is, but we're happy enough without nursery so I guess it's working for us. We go to a play group at our local nursery which is awesome, and Lily's little mate will be starting there in January. At first I thought awesome! She will love that! Then I remembered I'm having a baby in January and I had this image of Lily on her own in nursery for the first time while I'm at home with a brand new baby :lol: yeah that's not gonna happen. :haha:

I don't know much about APing but I wouldn't consider myself one just cos she stays with me and doesn't go to nursery.


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## dani_tinks

Up until a week ago Jacob had never been to nursery/stayed with anyone other than us. I didn't think he was clingy, or lacked social skills. His language is incredible for a two year old. I've taught him his numbers & alphabet and he doesn't cling to me when he's around other children. He always wants to be everyones friend :). But because I think he's quite advanced I thought he could now benefit from a pre school environment.
I don't know about AP as I haven't looked into it before.


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## Palestrina

This article is just stupid. I don't send my LO to nursery because I can't afford it, he doesn't need it just yet, and because I want to keep him home with me. But I do think it's important for him to be around other children and I take him to playgroups and classes and he socializes with other kids. If he wasn't around other kids he would never have learned to crawl, walk, throw, or do anything at all. There are some things that parents cannot teach their kids and I think this article points to people who are trying to do the best for their child and making them feel bad about it.


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## louandivy

Palestrina said:


> This article is just stupid. I don't send my LO to nursery because I can't afford it, he doesn't need it just yet, and because I want to keep him home with me. But I do think it's important for him to be around other children and I take him to playgroups and classes and he socializes with other kids. If he wasn't around other kids he would never have learned to crawl, walk, throw, or do anything at all. There are some things that parents cannot teach their kids and I think this article points to people who are trying to do the best for their child and making them feel bad about it.

You think your kid wouldn't have learnt to crawl, walk or throw if he was just at home with you?!


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## dani_tinks

I don't think children need to be around others to learn basics such as crawling, throwing, walking. I didn't take Jacob to playschool or baby groups and he learnt fine.


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## louandivy

And kids can be around other children without going to nursery?! Thats what soft play/playgrounds/classes are for...

Wait I just read your post properly and you don't even send your child to nursery. I don't get your point.


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## moomoo

Would love my kids to be home with me all the time, unfortunately I have to work :shrug:


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## ClaireLouise

Its all down to the individual and the child.

Not all kids are the same, if parents want to send their children to nursery (for whatever reason) then there is nothing wrong with that. I highly doubt it is a bad thing either or else why would children go. 

Marley will be 3 in November and whilst he isnt in nursery at the moment, i want to send him for his free 15 hours when he is entitled as in my situation, its what i think is best for him. Not because of what some articles say is "best".

So whilst it is an interesting article, i hope the ladies who do take their kiddies to nursery dont get offended and take it too seriously :)


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## jenny82

My LO just started nursery yesterday. Only for a few mornings 2 days per week. 

I do think it will be good for him and his little sister got lots of undivided attention yesterday too which she loved. I dunno, I guess I'm on the fence. I love having him home with us and his speech is quite advanced, he's even trying to read ATM and can read a few words and tbh, I did find yesterday so hard - the house was so quiet. But we have NO baby friends, except one but her mum works so hard and we can rarely fit each other in :( anyway, I thought spending time with other kids would be good for him. I actually got a cup of tea yesterday morning without any distractions. It was amazing!!

He is so excited about 'school'. it makes me happy that going there makes him happy...


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## marley2580

It does say in the article that parents shouldn't feel guilty for sending their kids to nursery, it's says that if you don't you are NOT damaging your children


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## KittyVentura

Palestrina said:


> This article is just stupid. I don't send my LO to nursery because I can't afford it, he doesn't need it just yet, and because I want to keep him home with me. But I do think it's important for him to be around other children and I take him to playgroups and classes and he socializes with other kids. If he wasn't around other kids he would never have learned to crawl, walk, throw, or do anything at all. There are some things that parents cannot teach their kids and I think this article points to people who are trying to do the best for their child and making them feel bad about it.

I can only speak for myself but Fin NEVER saw another baby or young child roll/crawl/sit etcbefore he did them. We did attend groups but Fin was always physically advanced and was the first in all to reach these milestones. Children learn these things not by seeing others, but from a natural desire to move and be less vunerable.

As for the article, thanks so much for posting. I'm so fed up of being told he needs to go to nursery to socialise or toughen up. We've encouraged him to be gentle to other children as we knew from a young age he would have a sibling. It means that whenwe are around other children and they push or shove he just steps back and walks away... Which I think is admirable but others insist he has to learn to be a brute. We do plenty with him, always at a soft play or play dates and he is plenty sociable. He is very advanced with his learning to. I have no plans to send him to nursery yet.


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## OmarsMum

Palestrina said:


> This article is just stupid. I don't send my LO to nursery because I can't afford it, he doesn't need it just yet, and because I want to keep him home with me. But I do think it's important for him to be around other children and I take him to playgroups and classes and he socializes with other kids. If he wasn't around other kids he would never have learned to crawl, walk, throw, or do anything at all. There are some things that parents cannot teach their kids and I think this article points to people who are trying to do the best for their child and making them feel bad about it.

Omar wasn't around any kids when he was a baby other than his 2 cousins. He crawled, walked & talked before his cousin, so I don't think being around his cousin taught him how to reach his milestones. We didn't go to any groups or play areas before 14 months. He was talking at 8 months, crawling at 9 & walking before 12 months.


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## ttc_lolly

I think you'll find studies for and against preschool and nursery, so this article is just another to a very long list! It's what suits the parent and child at the end of the day. Amber isn't in nursery, but she loves going to her playgroups. I think we'll put her in to preschool at either 2.5 or 3 years old for a couple of mornings as I feel it'll be a benefit.


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## TatorMom

Every parent, child and family has different needs, abilities, etc. I have stayed home full time 2 out of my 2yr old and 3yr old's life. I have hated nearly every minute of it, and that has nothing to do with my love for my kids, or my enjoyment being a mother. I'm just not cut out to be home with them 24/7. Being a full time SAHM just doesn't bring me the same kind of satisfaction that my career brings me. I have the utmost respect for the mother's where it does. The only thing that kept me sane during those 2 years was being in college, and night shift. I just need something outside of my kids, and for me a few hours of their absence during the day makes my heart grow fonder. :thumbup: I will admit that now that my oldest has past the "terrible two's and horrific 3's" he's an angle and I LOVE being with/around him. It was like one day the terrible two's demon took over my sweet babies and now it's finally left our oldest. I just don't like the infant and toddler stages. I don't have a lot of patience and tolerance. I need and love my career, but it's a 3 12hr shifts a week career, so it still leaves me plenty of mommy/family time, but makes me a better mother, wife and person. It's a personal thing for me and what works best for our family. My oldest has sensory issues and goes to our school districts preschool program 4 days a week from 8am-330, and our youngest is a Peer at the preschool. The extra day I can pick up an extra shift at work or catch up on homework, since I'm in my master's program. It's amazing how beneficial it's been for all of us! There's no question I'm a better mom as a result. I do not practice attachment parenting, but a different way does not make a wrong way!:thumbup:


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## Seity

Never felt the need to send Gabriel anywhere or take him to any groups or classes. He'll go to kindergarten when he turns 5 and be just fine.


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## XJessicaX

Not entirely true Palestrina, some things are instinctive and children do just learn. Becoming mobile is a milestone most children work towards from birth! Although I guess being around other mobile children could speed the process up. Crawling my LO did months before any of her friends so that was an instinctive need rather than a taught one. She did start walking very shortly after joining nursery which did make me think at the time it was due to being the youngest in a group of older children, but she may have just started walking then anyway! As someone on here once said, I think parents give themselves too much credit for their children's achievements.


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## louandivy

XJessicaX said:


> Not entirely true Palestrina, some things are instinctive and children do just learn. Becoming mobile is a milestone most children work towards from birth! Although I guess being around other mobile children could speed the process up. Crawling my LO did months before any of her friends so that was an instinctive need rather than a taught one. She did start walking very shortly after joining nursery which did make me think at the time it was due to being the youngest in a group of older children, but she may have just started walking then anyway! *As someone on here once said, I think parents give themselves too much credit for their children's achievements.*

Haha I totally agree with this!


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## ClaireLouise

louandivy said:


> XJessicaX said:
> 
> 
> Not entirely true Palestrina, some things are instinctive and children do just learn. Becoming mobile is a milestone most children work towards from birth! Although I guess being around other mobile children could speed the process up. Crawling my LO did months before any of her friends so that was an instinctive need rather than a taught one. She did start walking very shortly after joining nursery which did make me think at the time it was due to being the youngest in a group of older children, but she may have just started walking then anyway! *As someone on here once said, I think parents give themselves too much credit for their children's achievements.*
> 
> Haha I totally agree with this!Click to expand...

Me too! Made me laugh thinking about it too haha :kiss:


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## Natsku

Bah I think I deserve all the credit for Maria's awesomeness, clearly its all down to my amazing parenting skills :rofl:


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## ClaireLouise

Do you think we should give ourselves credit for the conception part too? :blush:


















I do


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## XJessicaX

haha. Mine wasn't anything spectacular. More of a "oh do we have to? FINE..go on then"


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## special_kala

I dont feel the need to send the girls to nursery until i feel that they are at a age where it will benefit them. 

River will go in January for 3 days a week because i think she would enjoy it. Even if i could afford it i still wouldnt send her any sooner.

Obviously if she didnt go to nursery at all i fail to see how that would do her harm, i didnt realise people thought that anyway.


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## OmarsMum

Natsku said:


> Bah I think I deserve all the credit for Maria's awesomeness, clearly its all down to my amazing parenting skills :rofl:

:rofl: :rofl: 

Well at least he takes his good looks from me :rofl:


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## Palestrina

louandivy said:


> Palestrina said:
> 
> 
> This article is just stupid. I don't send my LO to nursery because I can't afford it, he doesn't need it just yet, and because I want to keep him home with me. But I do think it's important for him to be around other children and I take him to playgroups and classes and he socializes with other kids. If he wasn't around other kids he would never have learned to crawl, walk, throw, or do anything at all. There are some things that parents cannot teach their kids and I think this article points to people who are trying to do the best for their child and making them feel bad about it.
> 
> You think your kid wouldn't have learnt to crawl, walk or throw if he was just at home with you?!Click to expand...

He IS home with me but I make every effort to take him to groups and playgrounds and let him interact with other kids. I just think the article is stupid, I can't realistically agree with any point that it makes and that's my opinion. Millions of parents take their kids to a nursery, and this article says they become like "lord of the flies." 

And I can only speak for my son, but it is his personality to be quite observant of other kids and likes to follow older kids and do what they do. So yes, he did not learn how to walk because he watched other kids, but he did learn to be brave and try it when he first started and he learns a lot by mimicking. Maybe my child is just dumb.


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## Lina

I always thought it odd that a 2 month old needed socialization, thanks for posting.


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## Lina

Palestrina said:


> louandivy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Palestrina said:
> 
> 
> This article is just stupid. I don't send my LO to nursery because I can't afford it, he doesn't need it just yet, and because I want to keep him home with me. But I do think it's important for him to be around other children and I take him to playgroups and classes and he socializes with other kids. If he wasn't around other kids he would never have learned to crawl, walk, throw, or do anything at all. There are some things that parents cannot teach their kids and I think this article points to people who are trying to do the best for their child and making them feel bad about it.
> 
> You think your kid wouldn't have learnt to crawl, walk or throw if he was just at home with you?!Click to expand...
> 
> He IS home with me but I make every effort to take him to groups and playgrounds and let him interact with other kids. I just think the article is stupid, I can't realistically agree with any point that it makes and that's my opinion. Millions of parents take their kids to a nursery, and this article says they become like "lord of the flies."
> 
> And I can only speak for my son, but it is his personality to be quite observant of other kids and likes to follow older kids and do what they do. So yes, he did not learn how to walk because he watched other kids, but he did learn to be brave and try it when he first started and he learns a lot by mimicking. Maybe my child is just dumb.Click to expand...

I don't think your child is dumb, maybe his milestones coincided with the playgroups and he would have got there regardless. You clearly have too high expectations.


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## Natsku

ClaireLouise said:


> Do you think we should give ourselves credit for the conception part too? :blush:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I do

Nah I give seemingly defective Magic Condoms all the credit for that :haha:


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## aliss

I understand you don't disagree with it Palestrina and that's perfectly fine, but at the same time I can't help but wonder how some of the thought behind it can explain a lot of the insecurity you recently expressed about in your recent thread (https://babyandbump.momtastic.com/toddler-pre-school/1168519-mommy-me-class-first-day-failures.html).

It's not so much about whether daycare is bad or good (it acknowledges that daycare is great for many children and they love it) but it talks about the expectations placed on young children, and children younger and younger being expected to perform or behave according to age-inappropriate standards.


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## marley2580

^^ that's just it. I spoke to a woman the other week who was being pressured into sending her daughter into nursery full time, but she felt she wasn't ready for it. I was the only person she had spoken to that had said not to. People think that nursery is compulsory and there's been so many times on BnB that I've seen someone post saying 'I'm not sure' and everyone piles in to say 'you should, it socialises them'. This article says that's not the case.

It says btw that the 'lord of the flies' thing CAN happen when a child attaches to their peers instead of to their carers.


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## k4th

"this means that if we take the attachment figure away, through either death, illness, distractions, daycare or any disruption in attachment Relationships, and replace it with peer attachment - puff - the kid will become lord of the flies type"

It goes on. And for me, even putting daycare in the same paragraph as death or illness is simply scaremongering. And nasty scaremongering at that. This article though is not evidence for anything. It is an interpretation of an interview and not evidence based at all. It is an extreme view and based mostly on personal communications and opinions. I think it's tosh!

I can see that some kids thrive in nursery & some kids thrive at home and there is plenty of solid evidence to support both setting as another poster has pointed out too. I personally believe we all make the best choices for our kids and families and are the best parents we can be - certainly on here anyway :flower:

Eta: when I say it's tosh - I mean from an evidence/ research angle. Not that people who agree are thinking tosh at all - everyone is entitled to an opinion.


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## ClaireLouise

We as parents will always do what we think is best for our child. But again, we become our own worst enemy, being threatened by other people opinions on how best to raise your kids, who has the cleanest house, the cleverest children. 

It seems you're damned if you do and you're damned if you don't. Conflicting opinions, new studies, etc. We can all have our opinions, acknowledge other people's and make up your own mind :)

So I think this article was edging towards not making parents feel guilty for NOT taking their children to nursery, not singling out those that do, as OP said earlier.


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## little_lady

No, a 2 month old baby doesn't need socialising, and I don't think anyone would seriously argue for that or put their baby in nursery for that reason. 

I do think a 3, 4, 5 year old does need to learn to interact with other children though, be it via nursery or regular playgroups. My mum cared for me full time until I was 5 and didnt send or take me to any playgroups or nursery. On the one hand, I learned to read at 3, but on the other when I did start school I had crippling shyness which lasted for me into early adulthood. I believe this came from not knowing how to interact with other children apart from my younger siblings.

I take Isabelle to regular groups but I won't be sending her to nursery. I can understand the lord of the flies association, I have seen it happen (not literally lord of the flies, but ykwim) to a couple of kids who had little relationship with their parents. But that's really down to the parent, not the fact their child is in nursery 2 days a week, or even 5.


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## Jchihuahua

Daisy hasn't been to nursery yet. My husband went part time so we could manage the child care between us as I didnt want her to go until she was ready. We took her to loads of groups though to socialise and when she turns 3 I will definitely be sending her to nursery for her 15 hours. She is ready, she loves kids and loves doing the sort of stuff a nursery offers and I just know she'll thrive. Working as an early years teacher I know pretty much all there is to know about early years education and it will be the best thing for my child. I feel that she will get opportunities and experiences that it will be more difficult for us to provide on our own.


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## leelee

I think it depends on the child. Max is 2 1/2 and I won't be sending him to nursery until next year and have decided not to send him to school until 5 1/2 rather than 4 1/2. He is a very sensitive child and although he is extrovert, I don't think he would cope with nursery without me at the moment. We go to mother & toddler twice a week and he loves it and we see other children/go out every day. I have always taken him to mother & baby groups and find them great. 

The reason I will be sending him next year for a couple of days a week is because he is avery demanding toddler and I want to spend some time with his little sister (aged 1). She doesn't get as much attention as I would like and my OH works away during the week, so I don't even have someone to take over in the evening and give her more 1:1.

One concern I would have about not sending him to nursery would be that it would be a huge jump from being at home with me to going to school and being expected to sit still for a certain amount of time etc. This is in relation to my own child as I know he will have to be introduced to the concept very gently.

Whatever suits the parent and child though, Everyone is different.


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## Lu28

I have always disagreed with the argument that it's best for kids to be in childcare because they develop more quickly, learn so much etc etc. I believe it's nearly always best for a young child to spend the majority of their time at home with their parents. I honestly think this is an argument people kid themselves with in order to make them feel less guilty about sending their kids to childcare for long hours while they're at work. And before anyone jumps on me for saying that, this is coming from someone who sends their child to daycare for nearly 12 hours a day because I have to work - I just don't kid myself that it's for her own good - it's not, it's out of necessity.

For that reason, I made a deliberate decision to send her to a childminder rather than a nursery so that she develops a strong attachment to another adult who isn't going to move onto another nursery etc. She's part of her childminder's family when she's there, it's home away from home and for that reason it doesn't stress her out in the same way being at nursery all day would.

That said, I don't think 3 hours a day for the free 15 hours would cause any kind of affect in kids who were happy to be in a pre-school environment. I do think that kids are sent to school far too early these days, I don't understand the need to start their education so early. Aisling is extremely social, she didn't go into childcare until she was 18 months old and we went to every playgroup going. She'd love school from the social perspective but I don't think she'd be ready for sitting still etc and more than anything I think it's massively important for her to be a child and be carefree for as long as is possible. So despite her probably being ready, I've decided to delay preschool until she's 4 1/2 and school until she's 5 1/2. I just want her to be a kid and have fun for that bit longer.


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## Natsku

School definitely starts too early in the UK! I'm so glad it doesn't start til 7 here, they are much more ready to sit still and learn at that age.


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## freckleonear

k4th said:


> "this means that if we take the attachment figure away, through either death, illness, distractions, daycare or any disruption in attachment Relationships, and replace it with peer attachment - puff - the kid will become lord of the flies type"

I think the point being made is that socialisation with peers does not teach the same life skills as socialisation with an adult attachment figure. It reminds me of the Glenn Doman quote:



> One of the great modern myths is that children need other children to become socialised. The exact opposite is true. The notion that little children learn how to be civilised from being with each other has little to recommend it. What can a three-year old teach another three-year-old? Answer: How to behave like a three-year-old.


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## louandivy

I agree with school starting too young. Especially because ivy is a July baby - she is almost an entire year younger than some of the kids she will be starting school with! I am considering delaying it too - we are toying with the idea of travelling while ivy is still young enough for it not to disrupt her life anyway. I didn't realise that it started at 7 in Finland natsku! They have a very good education system there don't they?


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## Jchihuahua

I think kids in the UK generally cope very well with school starting so early. I teach Reception so just got my new class of 4 year olds last week. They have settled remarkably quickly and are not expected to sit still and concentrate for very long. It is all about learning through play, environment and experience. The classroom is set up in areas- sand, water, construction, small world, literacy, maths, sensory, role play, home corner, malleable, art and creative, music, ICT and then similar areas outside too but with more emphasis on large motor skills. The children learn through accessing these areas and the learning is very much child initiated. We assess and plan through observing what the children's interest s are. It is not formal. Even in Year 1 when they are 6 there is now much more emphasis on learning through play.


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## Natsku

louandivy said:


> I agree with school starting too young. Especially because ivy is a July baby - she is almost an entire year younger than some of the kids she will be starting school with! I am considering delaying it too - we are toying with the idea of travelling while ivy is still young enough for it not to disrupt her life anyway. I didn't realise that it started at 7 in Finland natsku! They have a very good education system there don't they?

One of the best systems in the world. Its one of the main reasons I won't leave Finland until Maria is finished with school.


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## Lu28

Jchihuahua said:


> I think kids in the UK generally cope very well with school starting so early. I teach Reception so just got my new class of 4 year olds last week. They have settled remarkably quickly and are not expected to sit still and concentrate for very long. It is all about learning through play, environment and experience. The classroom is set up in areas- sand, water, construction, small world, literacy, maths, sensory, role play, home corner, malleable, art and creative, music, ICT and then similar areas outside too but with more emphasis on large motor skills. The children learn through accessing these areas and the learning is very much child initiated. We assess and plan through observing what the children's interest s are. It is not formal. Even in Year 1 when they are 6 there is now much more emphasis on learning through play.

I spent a few days in Reception observing when I was looking at teacher training and it was lovely to see how it worked. Sadly in Ireland, it's all a good bit more formal from what I understand.


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## louandivy

Natsku said:


> louandivy said:
> 
> 
> I agree with school starting too young. Especially because ivy is a July baby - she is almost an entire year younger than some of the kids she will be starting school with! I am considering delaying it too - we are toying with the idea of travelling while ivy is still young enough for it not to disrupt her life anyway. I didn't realise that it started at 7 in Finland natsku! They have a very good education system there don't they?
> 
> One of the best systems in the world. Its one of the main reasons I won't leave Finland until Maria is finished with school.Click to expand...

Is most educated state funded? Sorry for being nosey, Scandinavia just seem to have got it right in so many ways!


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## _Vicky_

Ozzieshunni said:


> Attachment Parenting is responding to your child's needs. We don't do CIO/CC or any type of baby training. It comes from Dr. Sears. I think if you google it, you'll get the basic principles.

OHOHOHOHOHOH I never knew that was AP I thought it was me being soft! So now when I get lectures about it I will say - actually I practice attachmet parenting heheheehe love it!


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## Natsku

louandivy said:


> Natsku said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> louandivy said:
> 
> 
> I agree with school starting too young. Especially because ivy is a July baby - she is almost an entire year younger than some of the kids she will be starting school with! I am considering delaying it too - we are toying with the idea of travelling while ivy is still young enough for it not to disrupt her life anyway. I didn't realise that it started at 7 in Finland natsku! They have a very good education system there don't they?
> 
> One of the best systems in the world. Its one of the main reasons I won't leave Finland until Maria is finished with school.Click to expand...
> 
> Is most educated state funded? Sorry for being nosey, Scandinavia just seem to have got it right in so many ways!Click to expand...

Yeah its all state funded, even private schools can't charge fees (except for pre-schools) and university is free too. I really like the system here but some complain that there isn't enough provision for smarter kids, but I think smarter kids can do more work by themselves anyway if they want to.


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## leelee

Lu28 said:


> Jchihuahua said:
> 
> 
> I think kids in the UK generally cope very well with school starting so early. I teach Reception so just got my new class of 4 year olds last week. They have settled remarkably quickly and are not expected to sit still and concentrate for very long. It is all about learning through play, environment and experience. The classroom is set up in areas- sand, water, construction, small world, literacy, maths, sensory, role play, home corner, malleable, art and creative, music, ICT and then similar areas outside too but with more emphasis on large motor skills. The children learn through accessing these areas and the learning is very much child initiated. We assess and plan through observing what the children's interest s are. It is not formal. Even in Year 1 when they are 6 there is now much more emphasis on learning through play.
> 
> I spent a few days in Reception observing when I was looking at teacher training and it was lovely to see how it worked. Sadly in Ireland, it's all a good bit more formal from what I understand.Click to expand...

I would agree with this. I think there would be a lot more sitting still in Ireland, from what I can gather.


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## PepsiChic

Barry has never been to nursery, never stayed with family overnight, has never been looked after by anyone other then us..ever!

We talked about pre-school when he turns 3 but I think we've both decided its not what we want to do. Although pre-school is slightly less structured then school. Its still too structured for my liking. A 3 year old is not of schooling age and I want him to enjoy his toddler years!

It obviosuly not a choice for everyone, sometimes people need their own time. which is perfectly fine ebcause no-one wants a stressed out mummy.

Other times its because they have no-where else to go with childcare, placing the child in a well sought after nursery/pre-school allows the parent/s to go to work to earn money to keep a roof over their head. 

Theres definatly no right or wrong choice!


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## DaisyBee

Is nursery in England like daycare? So you get 15 hrs of daycare a week for free so even if not working most send them? We don't have that over here.

I think all preschools here you have to pay for. Do you pay for preschool?

Also what age do kids start kindergarden over there?


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## PepsiChic

DaisyBee said:


> Is nursery in England like daycare? So you get 15 hrs of daycare a week for free so even if not working most send them? We don't have that over here.
> 
> I think all preschools here you have to pay for. Do you pay for preschool?
> 
> Also what age do kids start kindergarden over there?

Yes Nursery = Daycare
Yes they get 15 free hours of daycare a week

They dont really have a pre-school, they used to have something like it called Reception when I lived in England. And as far as im aware no for reception/kindergarten they dont pay.

Kindergarten - also called Infant School starts at the age of 5 typically.


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## Jchihuahua

The 15 hours is most often, but not always, within a nursery school setting as opposed to daycare. So Daisy will go to the nursery that is attached to the school she will attend. Nursery schools don't take children under 3 so they are very different to the nurseries a baby might attend as daycare. I am in charge of the nursery at my school. When there 4 going on 5 they then start reception, which is what I teach.


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## DaisyBee

So kids then just go to daycare or wait til kindergarden vs any kind of preschool?


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## DaisyBee

So nursery school is more like preschool then? I'm confused! Lol


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## Gingerspice

DaisyBee said:


> Is nursery in England like daycare? So you get 15 hrs of daycare a week for free so even if not working most send them? We don't have that over here.
> 
> I think all preschools here you have to pay for. Do you pay for preschool?
> 
> Also what age do kids start kindergarden over there?

Pre-school is for aged 3+ years until they start school. They can start reception class at school at age 4, or you can hold them back until age 5 when they will go straight into 1st year. They still get the funding at the pre-school until aged 5 i believe but most do send their children to school at age 4 because, well lets face it, why pay for care at pre-school when they'd get the school for free. 

Some pre-schools are run by nurseries so they take the children from about 7am - 6pm (any hours between) whereas some pre-schools are attached to schools in which case they are only open for school times only and often have specific morning or afternoon sessions.

It gets confusing because there's overlap with the names, but basically nursery is for aged 6 months - age 4. Within the nursery howoever they might run a pre-school which they go to from age 3. But equally you might pull them out of the nursery and send them to the school pre-school class, but if they're at nursery becuse you work the chances are you can't do the 9-3pm day only as need them in care until 5pm, which is why many keep the children at the nursery but they are in the pre-school class that the nursery run as thats open for a longer period of time each day.


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## Jchihuahua

DaisyBee said:


> So nursery school is more like preschool then? I'm confused! Lol

Yes, Nursery school and pre school are the same thing.


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## DaisyBee

Gingerspice said:


> DaisyBee said:
> 
> 
> Is nursery in England like daycare? So you get 15 hrs of daycare a week for free so even if not working most send them? We don't have that over here.
> 
> I think all preschools here you have to pay for. Do you pay for preschool?
> 
> Also what age do kids start kindergarden over there?
> 
> Pre-school is for aged 3+ years until they start school. They can start reception class at school at age 4, or you can hold them back until age 5. They still get the funding at the pre-school until aged 5 i believe but most do send their children to school at age 4 because, well lets face it, why pay for care at pre-school when they'd get the school for free.
> 
> Some pre-schools are run by nurseries so they take the children from about 7am - 6pm (any hours between) whereas some pre-schools are attached to schools in which case they are only open for school times only and often have specific morning or afternoon sessions.Click to expand...

Thanks... That helps me understand!

Kids aren't usually able to start school here until 5. Some schools are making it that if the kids pass a bunch of "tests" they will let them in at 4 but that's not usual. Our school doesn't have that. So megan will start school at 5 1/2. I am going to send her to preschool for 2 years before then ( so next fall) as it's only for a few hours a few days a week and it's the same teachers who do the toddler/ parent classes we go to. Megan loves the toddler classes and I think it helps her with boredom issues. She loves learning and doing activities and we do it constantly at home, but being elsewhere to do it puts a new spin on it. If she didn't love it I wouldn't think of sending her. If she doesn't go there is no playgroup here... The toddler class is just a younger version of preschool as the parents stay for half and go have a parent class down the hall during the 2nd half.


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## aliss

Daycare here (Canada + USA) is available from 0-whenever you start them at kindergarten (4-6, for example). You can choose preschool from 3+ (and here in Quebec it's 2+ since most kids are already used to government run daycare facilities with a similar structure).


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## ttc_lolly

aliss said:


> Daycare here (Canada + USA) is available from 0-whenever you start them at kindergarten (4-6, for example). You can choose preschool from 3+ (and here in Quebec it's 2+ since most kids are already used to government run daycare facilities with a similar structure).

Exactly the same here, except some nurseries (your daycare) now take on the government funded free 15 hours a week for preschoolers, giving more spaces available for preschoolers I guess. Some preschools here take children on from 2-2.5 years now too


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## aliss

Oh ok so 15 hours is free from 3+ right then? Not 0-3?

Here it's $7/day from birth to whatever age they go to kindergarten, flat rate for all incomes, whether it's a simple home daycare or fancy little trilingual preschool :rofl:

Which is why my bump is already registered in the system for preschool... bureaucracy!


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## ttc_lolly

Yep, the free 15 hours is from when they are aged 3 :thumbup: all of the preschools and nurseries (daycares) here charge different rates, some of them are staggering!


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## bellablue

i am blessed that i can stay home with my daughter we even have a little school area i teach everything i really love being at home with her and i hope i stay blessed to stay home with the next 3 or 4 

i mean it is a mother's choice i dont judge any one who takes them to daycare some mom's have to work single mums and it can be heart breaking to have to leave the kids my cousin is 25 has two and would love to stay at home with them dead beat dad in her case so i think of us stay at home moms lucky i truly feel blessed i can see her all day and teach her


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## eddjanuary10

Ihsan will start pre-school next August at 3 and a half years. He has always been really dependent of me but recently he is gaining confidence & will happily go off and play with toddlers at play group only glancing in my direction once or twice in the space of an hour where before he would be over to me every 5minutes. We have visited the nursery he will attend a few times and he is always asking if he can go now, DH & I are considering putting him in for 3hours x 2mornings after January as we feel he would enjoy it & be in his element. At the moment we do quite a few toddler classes (play groups, gymnastics, music class, ducklings swim class) he loves being around other kids & his cousins but he also enjoys adult company he loves his aunts, uncles and Grandparents and just spending lot's of time with Mummy & Daddy. Certain family members would often comment that Ihsan would learn to talk more (this was when he was under 17months & had a vocabulary of about 20words, 10 of which were counting to 10!), come out of his shell, stop being such a Mummy's boy, etc etc. 'Once he start's nursery' and it used to bug me SO much. He was forever being compared to DH's niece who was in nursery since around 6months & not really needy of her Mum & could say a lot more than Ihsan at 17months. I am happy to say that he is coming along just fine, talking, counting, singing, playing with other kids, outgoing & happy. I am so pleased we have been lucky enough to spend all this time with our son before he starts pre-school & proud that he is doing well :)

Phew! I seem to go on & on these days lol! x


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## JASMAK

aliss said:


> Agreed, plenty of AP moms even work full time right from 6 weeks. It's not about that at all.


Yup, I consider myself AP. we coslept, breastfed for 2 years, baby wore, I dont do CC or CIO. But, I work full time, however hubby and I have chosen to work opposite shifts to limit childcare.



XJessicaX said:


> I possibly do have the wrong idea. I guess from seeing friends who AP (I am from Cambridge and its a very middle class way of parenting I find so very common here!) I see very clingy (dislike the word clingy) children very dependant on their mothers which isn't a bad thing!!....just not for me. I guess I am only seeing a small snippet of attachment parenting though. B&B is another place which confirmed my thoughts on it but once again I may just be seeing it wrong. So many posts from parents who AP who are worried about development, social issues and sleeping!

This is a myth. You find clingy kids on either side of the parenting spectrum. Thats just kids. I AP and my kids..,all of them were and continue to be fiercly independent from a very young age. My son was and still is shy, but is confident and happy. If anything, my kids are mature and more behaved than some of the non AP parents I know. In fact, AP kids are usually MORE independent because they are confident.



bellablue said:


> i am blessed that i can stay home with my daughter we even have a little school area i teach everything i really love being at home with her and i hope i stay blessed to stay home with the next 3 or 4
> 
> i mean it is a mother's choice i dont judge any one who takes them to daycare some mom's have to work single mums and it can be heart breaking to have to leave the kids my cousin is 25 has two and would love to stay at home with them dead beat dad in her case so i think of us stay at home moms lucky i truly feel blessed i can see her all day and teach her

I wish I could be home too! I am currently trying to job share (go part time), but I used o be a SAHM and this is how I felt...I never judged others. I think a bigger issue is discipline tbh. I think the most damage to a child comes from the type of discipline, or lack thereof.





This was a good read and thanks to the OP for posting.


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## Liesje

I haven't read all of the responses here, just the initial article. 
I'd love to agree with what they're saying but its written by some right-wing anti-feminism group with a religious agenda so I find it a little less trustworthy. I'm not entirely convinced by it that I'm right lol


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## Palestrina

Lina said:


> Palestrina said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> louandivy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Palestrina said:
> 
> 
> This article is just stupid. I don't send my LO to nursery because I can't afford it, he doesn't need it just yet, and because I want to keep him home with me. But I do think it's important for him to be around other children and I take him to playgroups and classes and he socializes with other kids. If he wasn't around other kids he would never have learned to crawl, walk, throw, or do anything at all. There are some things that parents cannot teach their kids and I think this article points to people who are trying to do the best for their child and making them feel bad about it.
> 
> You think your kid wouldn't have learnt to crawl, walk or throw if he was just at home with you?!Click to expand...
> 
> He IS home with me but I make every effort to take him to groups and playgrounds and let him interact with other kids. I just think the article is stupid, I can't realistically agree with any point that it makes and that's my opinion. Millions of parents take their kids to a nursery, and this article says they become like "lord of the flies."
> 
> And I can only speak for my son, but it is his personality to be quite observant of other kids and likes to follow older kids and do what they do. So yes, he did not learn how to walk because he watched other kids, but he did learn to be brave and try it when he first started and he learns a lot by mimicking. Maybe my child is just dumb.Click to expand...
> 
> I don't think your child is dumb, maybe his milestones coincided with the playgroups and he would have got there regardless. *You clearly have too high expectations*.Click to expand...

Do I now?


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## Palestrina

aliss said:


> I understand you don't disagree with it Palestrina and that's perfectly fine, but at the same time I can't help but wonder how some of the thought behind it can explain a lot of the insecurity you recently expressed about in your recent thread (https://babyandbump.momtastic.com/toddler-pre-school/1168519-mommy-me-class-first-day-failures.html).
> 
> It's not so much about whether daycare is bad or good (it acknowledges that daycare is great for many children and they love it) but it talks about the expectations placed on young children, and children younger and younger being expected to perform or behave according to age-inappropriate standards.

I don't place any expectations on my son. But being a first-time parent I wonder how he fits in with other kids. I worry and feel protective over him. I seem to have developed a sort of anxiety about him getting along in life and being around other kids makes me remember what it was like for me to be around other kids - I remember the good the bad and the ugly, and I want to equip him with all I can to give him a good start. I grew up with a lot of love and emotional support from my parents, but they weren't book smart and didn't know how to help me succeed in school. There were no classes back then, there were no play groups, schoolwork was something I did without help, I kind of navigated through life with some handicaps and I just want to be the best mom i can be and really give him opportunities. 

I realize that there is great division between parenting styles. Some people BF, others FF. Every topic is so divisive and I honestly didn't even realize until this thread that there were the "my child excels in preschool" parents vs. the "I'd never send my child to preschool" parents. It's not a topic as simple as disposables vs. cloth is it? There's actually parents who believe that their child needs nobody but them, I didn't even know that. It seems cruel to me but whatever, each person does what they think is best.


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## PepsiChic

Palestrina said:


> This article is just stupid. I don't send my LO to nursery because I can't afford it, he doesn't need it just yet, and because I want to keep him home with me. But I do think it's important for him to be around other children and I take him to playgroups and classes and he socializes with other kids. * If he wasn't around other kids he would never have learned to crawl, walk, throw, or do anything at all.* There are some things that parents cannot teach their kids and I think this article points to people who are trying to do the best for their child and making them feel bad about it.

My toddler is my only earth born child as of yet. I have no family here, no friends with small children. We have NEVER been to a toddler group, nursery, day care, pre-school, swimming etc.

I did not get down on my hands and knees and show him how to crawl, just as I didnt teach him how to suckle from my breast. 

Its something we are born programmed to do, the natural ability to WANT to get up and explore and by figuring out how our body moves and how to make it go in the direction we want it to. 

Your sentence is a bit niave really, my son STILL hasnt been to play groups, or day care, yet hes a 2 year old that can, run, jump, throw, eat with a fork and spoon, drink out of an open cup, and undress himself quicker then I can get the clothes on him. 

If what you said was true, my son would still be lying on the floor trying to lift his head!


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## Natsku

I wonder what I'd have to pay for daycare here, I can never see fee lists on the websites of daycare centres :dohh: I know the state funded ones are on a sliding scale and the max charge is about 200 euros a month but I'd want Maria to go to an english language daycare when she has to go to one and they're usually private. Preschool is free though.


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## karlilay

XJessicaX - I'm not against AP at all, but iv never done any aspect of it. Madi has always been bottle fed, in a pushchair, iv never shared a bed with her etc. Buuuttt at 3 and a half, she is totally dependant on me. She hates Pre School, but I know I need t keep sending her else she will never learn social skills. 

If it was my choice, I wouldn't send her at all. But I know she won't cope with full time school, she needs a bit of prep.


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## XJessicaX

I think maybe my initial opinions on AP were incorrect or misguided. Apologies! 

I shall admit I am a lazy parent. I rather enjoy the structured learning that nursery provides. I was delighted to be told "Tabitha can now point out several body parts and she her vocabulary is expanding" a month ago, and then a few weeks ago I was told that she feeds herself for every meal time (I hadn't realised lol!) I love that she has 7 hours of learning twice a week! Its actually bucked up my ideas on what do to with her at home, so now I read more to her and we play a few word games and she's flourishing! I also love that she can go wild with messy play and I don't have to clear it up! haha.

Hoping they will start the potty training process too ;)


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## special_kala

Palestrina said:


> Lina said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Palestrina said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> louandivy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Palestrina said:
> 
> 
> This article is just stupid. I don't send my LO to nursery because I can't afford it, he doesn't need it just yet, and because I want to keep him home with me. But I do think it's important for him to be around other children and I take him to playgroups and classes and he socializes with other kids. If he wasn't around other kids he would never have learned to crawl, walk, throw, or do anything at all. There are some things that parents cannot teach their kids and I think this article points to people who are trying to do the best for their child and making them feel bad about it.
> 
> You think your kid wouldn't have learnt to crawl, walk or throw if he was just at home with you?!Click to expand...
> 
> He IS home with me but I make every effort to take him to groups and playgrounds and let him interact with other kids. I just think the article is stupid, I can't realistically agree with any point that it makes and that's my opinion.  Millions of parents take their kids to a nursery, and this article says they become like "lord of the flies."
> 
> And I can only speak for my son, but it is his personality to be quite observant of other kids and likes to follow older kids and do what they do. So yes, he did not learn how to walk because he watched other kids, but he did learn to be brave and try it when he first started and he learns a lot by mimicking. Maybe my child is just dumb.Click to expand...
> 
> I don't think your child is dumb, maybe his milestones coincided with the playgroups and he would have got there regardless. *You clearly have too high expectations*.Click to expand...
> 
> Do I now?Click to expand...

I don't mean to be harsh but I have to agree. I've seen a few posts about what your lo and what he should be doing next or he's not doing something, like the mother group thread.

I understand how easy it is to get worked up about things like that, we have all been first time mums, but honestly chick it's not worth the worry. I made a concious effort to not worry about how smart my girls are or compare them to their peers. I figure if you worry too much about what their going to do next then you might not really appreciate the wonderful amazing things they are doing now.

I don't concern myself about how smart they are going to be as kids or how well reviewed they will be by other choldren, I just do what I can to help them grow to their full potential but I don't expect anything from them. It might sound like that's a bad thing but of course I want them to be happy and bright.

Willow and your lo are similar ages I think. Willow doesn't talk, not really, she trys to say a few things but nothing very clear, she is much more of a baby then river ever was..it honestly doesn't bother me I guess I could compare her to River and think she's not as bright but so what :)

What I'm trying to get at is enjoy your lo now and try not to worry so much about development and how your doing/if your doing the right things. A child that is loved and cherished will go far anyway


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## special_kala

Btw though I am incredible proud of both my children, I think they are beautiful and bright and they amaze me every day, I just don't look at them within the normal ranges of children. I look at them as individuals.

Both my girls walked early at 9/10 months which is fantastic but its equally fantastic when my friends children walk at 18 months


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## Palestrina

Wow, sorry I ever opposed this stupid article. Having a different opinion around here only leads people to gang up on you and call you a bad mother with too high expectations and a severe misunderstanding of child development.


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## aliss

Nobody's called you a bad mother P, in fact quite the opposite, people are just trying to let you know that you are doing a wonderful job and that you are too hard on yourself sometimes :hugs:


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## Palestrina

aliss said:


> Nobody's called you a bad mother P, in fact quite the opposite, people are just trying to let you know that you are doing a wonderful job and that you are too hard on yourself sometimes :hugs:

Thanks Aliss. I think I just got riled up because people are saying my son would've learned those things anyway on his own, even if he wasn't around kids. And that's just not true is it, I mean nobody knows my son the way I do. And if I say that being around other kids and socializing with them has made my son better then who is anyone to argue with that?


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## PepsiChic

Palestrina said:


> aliss said:
> 
> 
> Nobody's called you a bad mother P, in fact quite the opposite, people are just trying to let you know that you are doing a wonderful job and that you are too hard on yourself sometimes :hugs:
> 
> Thanks Aliss. I think I just got riled up because people are saying my son would've learned those things anyway on his own, even if he wasn't around kids. And that's just not true is it, I mean nobody knows my son the way I do. And if I say that being around other kids and socializing with them has made my son better then who is anyone to argue with that?Click to expand...

Its not that we are arguing that they may have made your son better...but the point is he WOULD of learned those things if not around other kids. How do you think everyones kids who stay at home learn them? How did my son learn them?


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## sparkle_1979

I used to get palpitations and wanted to cry if someone so much as took ruby for a walk.....
However, We are currently going though the terrible twos and I cant wait to get her in that nursery door on 22nd Oct I'm counting down the days :haha:

Seriously though, all kids are different. Some need it and thrive and others are quite happy to be at home full time :shrug:


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## Ozzieshunni

PepsiChic said:


> Palestrina said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> aliss said:
> 
> 
> Nobody's called you a bad mother P, in fact quite the opposite, people are just trying to let you know that you are doing a wonderful job and that you are too hard on yourself sometimes :hugs:
> 
> Thanks Aliss. I think I just got riled up because people are saying my son would've learned those things anyway on his own, even if he wasn't around kids. And that's just not true is it, I mean nobody knows my son the way I do. And if I say that being around other kids and socializing with them has made my son better then who is anyone to argue with that?Click to expand...
> 
> Its not that we are arguing that they may have made your son better...but the point is he WOULD of learned those things if not around other kids. How do you think everyones kids who stay at home learn them? How did my son learn them?Click to expand...

Alex learned them without being around other kids :). I think it does help though. Like younger siblings mimick their older siblings sometimes.


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## PepsiChic

Ozzieshunni said:


> PepsiChic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Palestrina said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> aliss said:
> 
> 
> Nobody's called you a bad mother P, in fact quite the opposite, people are just trying to let you know that you are doing a wonderful job and that you are too hard on yourself sometimes :hugs:
> 
> Thanks Aliss. I think I just got riled up because people are saying my son would've learned those things anyway on his own, even if he wasn't around kids. And that's just not true is it, I mean nobody knows my son the way I do. And if I say that being around other kids and socializing with them has made my son better then who is anyone to argue with that?Click to expand...
> 
> Its not that we are arguing that they may have made your son better...but the point is he WOULD of learned those things if not around other kids. How do you think everyones kids who stay at home learn them? How did my son learn them?Click to expand...
> 
> Alex learned them without being around other kids :). I think it does help though. Like younger siblings mimick their older siblings sometimes.Click to expand...

Right, I think kids learn things QUICKER from older/other kids already doing those things. Like my second son will probably learn to do these things at an earlier age watching his older brother (obviously this is not always the case!)

But I just find it a bit strange that people think children wouldnt learn how to do them if not around other kids. :shrug: Where did my son learn it from?


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## JASMAK

My son was never around others, and he cruised at 8 months, walked at 9 months and talked fully at 18mths. I actually think parents help more than kids. My younger 2 kids did things slower...and they had siblings and went to preschool.....hmmm


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## jenny82

I always swear my dog was the one to get my LO walking at 9 months :haha:


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## ttc_lolly

^^^ :rofl:


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## Natsku

Maria was very very rarely around other children (i.e. about 3 visits to a baby club and two playdates) and she was walking by 9 months. It was the all the baby crisps I held out just out of reach that taught her :haha:


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## minikoo132

i havent read all the replys, but this is something i really worry about! i have chosen not to send dd1 to nursery she is now 2.5yrs but i feel pressured from every1 around me to do so as its the norm! there isnt 1 other child i know that doesnt go to nursery! :/ she doesnt see alot of other children although she does now have a little sister, and she is very shy and attached to me! i worry whether or not im doing the right thing not sending her.:nope:


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## Weezie123

Children learn best from being exposed to a mix of people old and young. What can a 1 year old possibly teach another 1 year old or even a 3 year old teach a 1 year old? It is good for humans to keep the company of other humans as we are a sociable species but being with those our own age for long periods of time is not needed to be sociable.


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## anita665

It's horrible not knowing what the right thing to do is. We all want the best for our children and have different parenting methods but nobody is sure what is right.

Maybe different things for different kids & parents?

My eldest has just started school but he went to nursery at just over 2 years old. We were already worried about his development and that he wasn't meeting his milestones. If it wasn't for nursery I don't think I would have fully understood his problems until much later and I feel they've helped him along in ways that I couldn't. Hopefully the early intervention has helped him 'catch up' a little. Perhaps it hasn't but I do feel positively about it.

The other thing was his temper too which I now understand is linked with the larger problem. He was such hard work and having that break from him I do feel improved my parenting.

He is still very clingy with me and very much attached but I think that is just his personality.

His younger brother is only 19 months and already goes to nursery for 4 hours a week. It's not long but he always wanted to stay and play when his brother was there so I decided to let him have some time there too. I don't know if it's good or bad but he loves it. He's been parented in the same way as his brother but is completely on track with his milestones and went for his first day at nursery and just ran off. It seems like he didn't miss me at all. Prior to this the was with me 24/7, breastfeeding and co-sleeping. I kind of think he is just a more secure and less troubled child because he hasn't been at nursery for long enough to be 'peer attached'. He's just a completely different personality.


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## Palestrina

PepsiChic said:


> Palestrina said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> aliss said:
> 
> 
> Nobody's called you a bad mother P, in fact quite the opposite, people are just trying to let you know that you are doing a wonderful job and that you are too hard on yourself sometimes :hugs:
> 
> Thanks Aliss. I think I just got riled up because people are saying my son would've learned those things anyway on his own, even if he wasn't around kids. And that's just not true is it, I mean nobody knows my son the way I do. And if I say that being around other kids and socializing with them has made my son better then who is anyone to argue with that?Click to expand...
> 
> Its not that we are arguing that they may have made your son better...but the point is he WOULD of learned those things if not around other kids. How do you think everyones kids who stay at home learn them? How did my son learn them?Click to expand...

I don't know how your son learned those things, I only have experience with my son. Of course he learned how to walk with me, and not with other kids. But at home he was self conscious, I tried to help him when he was trying to learn how to walk but I could see that his mind was tangled up in the mechanics of it all. He is an extremely careful child, does not throw things, pull hair or even make sudden movements. He does not trip and fall, he measures his steps and is very methodical, that's just his personality. Being around other kids makes him forget the mechanics and he just goes for it. It's all through having fun. He learned how to walk on his own, but being around other kids helped him get over his fears and hesitations about it. I don't doubt that he would've learned to walk if he was all alone too but why would I close him off from other people? I'm not looking to get full credit for his achievements, I'm glad to share him and have him learn from others.


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## Palestrina

Weezie123 said:


> Children learn best from being exposed to a mix of people old and young. What can a 1 year old possibly teach another 1 year old or even a 3 year old teach a 1 year old? It is good for humans to keep the company of other humans as we are a sociable species but being with those our own age for long periods of time is not needed to be sociable.

Well I for one need to be around adults for long periods of time. Spending all day and night with a toddler is amazing, but it's not quite fulfilling. I need adult conversation and activities to really feel complete. And I think my child needs the same. It takes a village they say and I don't have family around who will help me take care of LO, I feel it's my duty to expose him to other people.


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## Weezie123

Palestrina said:


> Weezie123 said:
> 
> 
> Children learn best from being exposed to a mix of people old and young. What can a 1 year old possibly teach another 1 year old or even a 3 year old teach a 1 year old? It is good for humans to keep the company of other humans as we are a sociable species but being with those our own age for long periods of time is not needed to be sociable.
> 
> Well I for one need to be around adults for long periods of time. Spending all day and night with a toddler is amazing, but it's not quite fulfilling. I need adult conversation and activities to really feel complete. And I think my child needs the same. It takes a village they say and I don't have family around who will help me take care of LO, I feel it's my duty to expose him to other people.Click to expand...

Totally and I agree that if you can't provide a mix of unstructured social activities for your child then you should take them out to more formal groups but there are groups available with a preschool/nursery set up where mum goes too for those that are not comfortable sending their child away for this. One person does not a tribe make but a group of mums and babies getting on with their own separate thing in the same room can be fun too.

Only you can know what your child is comfortable with and of they are comfortable away from you and enjoy nursery from the begining, no tears, then it is the right choice.


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## Seity

I don't believe kids need to be 'socialized' at all.


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## Starry Night

I like the article and agree with all the points it makes. I'm also excited to see some validation for not sending my kid to daycare or wanting him to go to preschool when he's older. I think it's important he stay home with me while he still can.

However, I think there is a danger in too firmly attaching yourself to a single parenting philosophy. Each child is different and may force you to change your mind and it also creates the danger of being snide and judgemental towards others who make different choices from you. I've just gotten into the habit of taking these articles with a grain of salt.


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## pinklightbulb

I've never sent Eamon to daycare. Pointless when I don't work and he learns just fine :)


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## Palestrina

Seity said:


> I don't believe kids need to be 'socialized' at all.

But why? I am not arguing it, I'm just trying to understand why you don't think kids need to socialize.


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## fluffpuffin

I would rather save the money that I could spend on nursery, and I like having Isla around me. I think as long as they are getting to meet a good mix of people then socialising will not be an issue. I know Isla is very outgoing and not shy at all.


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## Seity

Palestrina said:


> Seity said:
> 
> 
> I don't believe kids need to be 'socialized' at all.
> 
> But why? I am not arguing it, I'm just trying to understand why you don't think kids need to socialize.Click to expand...

Why, because he's learned absolutely everything without being socialized. He's much more advanced than most kids his age. The times when we've been out of the house, at a bar, restaurant or wherever, he's interacted just fine with both children and adults. Never having a problem sharing or taking turns or chatting with them.
He's never been to a group or daycare. He's home with his dad 95% of the time with the occasional playground or museum.
So, he doesn't 'need' to be socialized. It's simply something that you can do if you want or can.


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## dani_tinks

Jacob has only just started to go to pre school and be around children now (he's 2 years 7 months). I didn't take him to baby & toddler groups, he never went to nursery either and he has no siblings. I have very few ''mummy friends'' so he hasn't been around children very much really.
He's amazing though, he's very social, loves everyone he meets, his speech is fab, he's right on development wise (if not a little ahead!). He's starting to make friends now and interact. 
So no, I don't think it's crucial for babies and toddlers to socialise with others, in my experience they do just fine without.


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## PepsiChic

I have to admit when I compare my toddler to the toddler we lived with for a short while...I was much happier with the way my toddler behaved towards her.

She went to nursery 5 days a week, he as I said before has never been without us. She would bite, kick and slap him, she would snatch his toys, push him over and generally be quite mean for a toddler. She was also sick from colds from the other kids almost every week.

Barry loves other people, we can go anywhere and he'll wave, smile, blow kisses, babble (he doesnt talk much yet). He will offer his food, drink, toy to anyone near by. He has never hit, kciked, bit, slapped or pushed anyone. Hes also rarely sick. (though was the entire time we lived with that toddler :( 

I know its about parenting as well, and im not saying all toddlers who go to daycare/nursery turn out like that. But they DO learn those bad habits from other children who like that toddler arent discilpined for their bad behaviours.


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## Ozzieshunni

I kinda agree. I don't think toddlers need to be socialized. I watch all these toddlers at toddler group hit my son and run into him without consequences. What does that teach him?


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## Palestrina

Seity said:


> Palestrina said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Seity said:
> 
> 
> I don't believe kids need to be 'socialized' at all.
> 
> But why? I am not arguing it, I'm just trying to understand why you don't think kids need to socialize.Click to expand...
> 
> Why, because he's learned absolutely everything without being socialized. He's much more advanced than most kids his age. The times when we've been out of the house, at a bar, restaurant or wherever, he's interacted just fine with both children and adults. Never having a problem sharing or taking turns or chatting with them.
> He's never been to a group or daycare. He's home with his dad 95% of the time with the occasional playground or museum.
> So, he doesn't 'need' to be socialized. It's simply something that you can do if you want or can.Click to expand...

So what you really mean is that a child doesn't need to go to a nursery. Because interacting with people, sharing, chatting and taking turns is social behavior, it's socializing. I thought you meant that kids don't need to be socialized meaning they can act like wolves in the wild and that would be ok :dohh:


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## Ozzieshunni

Alex knows how to share. :shrug: In fact, he's better at it than some of the toddlers I've seen that have been "socialized."


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## PepsiChic

Palestrina said:


> So what you really mean is that a child doesn't need to go to a nursery. Because interacting with people, sharing, chatting and taking turns is social behavior, it's socializing. I thought you meant that kids don't need to be socialized meaning they can act like wolves in the wild and that would be ok :dohh:

Socializing in the sense of incoporating your child into a group of other children with the intent for them to interact. 

At least thats my perception of it. 

I mean Im sat here browsing the forum, my 2 year old is babbling away bouncing and laughing on the bed behind me. He's such a happy kid, he always has been, hes always been really outgoing with new people too, never shys away.

I couldnt be happier...or more in love with him :cloud9:


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## hattiehippo

PepsiChic said:


> I have to admit when I compare my toddler to the toddler we lived with for a short while...I was much happier with the way my toddler behaved towards her.
> 
> She went to nursery 5 days a week, he as I said before has never been without us. She would bite, kick and slap him, she would snatch his toys, push him over and generally be quite mean for a toddler. She was also sick from colds from the other kids almost every week.
> 
> Barry loves other people, we can go anywhere and he'll wave, smile, blow kisses, babble (he doesnt talk much yet). He will offer his food, drink, toy to anyone near by. He has never hit, kciked, bit, slapped or pushed anyone. Hes also rarely sick. (though was the entire time we lived with that toddler :(
> 
> I know its about parenting as well, and im not saying all toddlers who go to daycare/nursery turn out like that. But they DO learn those bad habits from other children who like that toddler arent discilpined for their bad behaviours.

I also think the child's personality has a lot to do with their behaviour as well as parenting, nursery/no nursery etc, etc.

Tom did 2 days at nursery from 8-22 months and then has done 3 days for nearly a year now because I work. Although he is a stubborn little terror at home, at nursery and in public he is gentle and usually the one that gets pushed around by other kids tbh. He shares about as well as most 2 1/2 to 3 yr olds, doesn't hit, kick or push other kids and the only person he's ever bitten is me when he was much younger.

I thought the article was interesting and thought provoking. I would agree that under a certain age - 3 maybe- kids do not need to be spending lots of time with other kids of the same age but we are social creatures so any chances to learn social interaction with a range of ages of children and adults is a good thing.


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## _Vicky_

Another point to add the BEST sharing I see at all my groups is twins club Always 30 odd kids in quite frankly a room that is too small and very very little aggro at all - human development is fascinating and I don't think one size fits all. My boys are twins and soooo different in every way so just illustrates there isn't one definitive right way as there is soooo many variables! X


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## indy and lara

E is has just started Nursery now at 3.2 years old. We are not using her full allocation of hours but she is going 4 afternoons a week for 2 hours 10 minutes. It is unlikely that we will increase this before she starts school in 2 years time.

I have only just gone back to work and I never felt that E needed nursery while I was at home. We went to soft play, music class, dancing class, met other mums and so on. We 'socialised' lots but I never saw the need for her to attend Nursery. People often say that children need Nursery to learn pre 3 but as children learn best at this age through play, I never saw it as necessary. At home we do lots of different activities-arts and crafts, cooking, playdough, games, dress up and so on. She has learned as much through these and other real life experiences such as going to museums as she would have done being in childrcare pre 3. 

On the other hand I am a teacher and I have spent several years as the pre- school nursery teacher. I have a lot of knowledge and experience and have never doubted my ability to 'teach' E. I think that lots of parents do doubt their ability to do this and feel pre 3 nursery will do what they cannot. I think the image of young children lined up drawing is a deliberately provocative one. This is not my experience of 3-5 education and I don't believe it is a common one in birth to 3 settings either.


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## Jchihuahua

indy and lara said:


> I think the image of young children lined up drawing is a deliberately provocative one. This is not my experience of 3-5 education and I don't believe it is a common one in birth to 3 settings either.

Agreed.


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## Pensivedore

XJessicaX said:


> Neither is wrong or right. Its just about what we want as parents! I don't do attachment parenting, I wouldn't be able to function with that sort of relationship with my daughter! Sounds terribly selfish I know but I like her 2 days at nursery, I love 'me' time. I enjoy her being so independent and not clingy when she is at home and how refreshed I feel seeing her. I have no qualms about her development whatsoever and a lot of that I do believe IS down to nursery!
> The article is very interesting though and I am glad I don't send her more than 2 days a week (I say day but its 0830-0330 so not too long)

I have to agree with this. My eldest two are now at full time school but my two youngest are at full time nursery even though I only work 2.5 days a week. 

I have help in the holidays too with my eldest two- one day they go to the in laws, one day they go to my parents. For me it is about them socialising with other people and them not being so dependant on me- some dependance yes, but not so much I don't have my own breathing space. 

Plus it isn't like I spend that time gambling away my money at the local bingo...food shopping, dry cleaning runs, dog walking, house tidying- glamourous stuff you know? :winkwink:

I don't intend for this post to offend anyone- we are all mothers, we are all HUMAN and we all do things in different ways.


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## Abz1982

Hnmmm, i can see both sides. I never went to nursery, I was at home with my mum and as we had just moved back to this country she had no real friends, and no transport as she didn't drive. so stuck at home. 
I was and still am very very shy. Not good in social situations and due to spending a lot of time on my own I used to day dream....and I would do a lot of that at school.........I was smart, i have a good IQ..........so does my mum, she was allowed to stay at school back in the days when they tested you to see if you could...but I never learned a how to do things myself. I could write at 4, read at 3/4....but when I got to school...as I had been taught differently i took a step back, and the teachers would not let me do it unless it was THEIR way. The result is I am very unsure of my self and my abilities - despite my mum being supportive. 

My sister went to nursery from age 3. She can sell snow to the eskimos, charm anyone, has a brazillion friends and has - despite having dyslexia and no qualifications what so ever, been able to charm her way up the career ladder. 

If I didn't send LO to nursery, then she really would not be spending time with kids her own age - - and well...........I wouldn't be able to work. 

It has been well documented that learning to read later is better........I don't push LO to try and learn to read....but learning early never effected me badly either.

We do jsut let LO do things at her own pace, and the nursery don't push her either. She cant really draw a face unless its on a ball/sphere........but she can tell you what makes a rainbow, and which town/country/empire/continent/planet we live on.


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## Pearls18

Lu28 said:


> I have always disagreed with the argument that it's best for kids to be in childcare because they develop more quickly, learn so much etc etc. I believe it's nearly always best for a young child to spend the majority of their time at home with their parents. I honestly think this is an argument people kid themselves with in order to make them feel less guilty about sending their kids to childcare for long hours while they're at work. And before anyone jumps on me for saying that, this is coming from someone who sends their child to daycare for nearly 12 hours a day because I have to work - I just don't kid myself that it's for her own good - it's not, it's out of necessity.

Totally disagree, speak for yourself I don't feel an ounce of guilt. I'm glad this article makes people feel better for keeping their children at home, as others have said what's best for one family isn't for another. Nursery is what's best for us, I am proud I can pay for Elliot to go, I don't need to read any literature to back myself up, seeing what a happy little boy he is and what my career brings to myself and my family is all I need to confirm our lifestyle. But maybe I'm kidding myself...... ;) seriously though who cares what this article says, what Mrs Bloggs thinks, do what's best for your family and if you don't like what you're doing change it, either way there's no need to make others question themselves.


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## nov_mum

I loved the idea of being a sahm and being my child's first teacher. Regardless of whether they go to day care or not I think it's still the parents role to be the first teacher still. I have a nearly 4 year old and he has been at kindy for the last year, three mornings a week, My nearly three year old and one year old don't attend nursery/day care. We go to playcentre once a week which is parent led, we have play group once a week an various play dates. We go to parks and play grounds and they are all interested in and good with other kids. I think day care does make them fight for their space a little and they learn some less savoury behaviours early on but they learn them once they get to kindy anyway. There are pro's and con's to both arrangements and overall I think the adjustment and exposure to experiences comes down to the parent. Although I my kids are not in nursery/day care, I work full time and so does my husband so they get lots of time with a parent but not that much us together. We definitely miss out on that aspect but affording to send three to a centre would bankrupt us. I hate the idea of my under one's in day care but my best friend has her boy in three days a week from 6mths and he seems happy enough. He gets sick a lot but that will happen at some point when they start socialisng lots anyway.


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## XJessicaX

Off topic but not all kids get sick through nursery. I think I have a freak of nature though. We were warned that she would be ill and that all children in the first year of nursery would be off multiple times and we were talked through all the symptoms we couldn't bring her in with. She's been ill once in her life. Just before 10 months she contracted Norovirus and was poorly for 4 days and recovered much faster than my husband! She's never been ill apart from that! She's immersed in social activity and she even spent the day with a kid with hand, foot and mouth without anything!
I'd love to understand this further. I'm the same, haven't been ill in over 10 years. Maybe only ill 4-5 times in my whole life. I didn't realise immune systems were that heraditary?!


----------



## Pearls18

XJessicaX said:


> Off topic but not all kids get sick through nursery. I think I have a freak of nature though. We were warned that she would be ill and that all children in the first year of nursery would be off multiple times and we were talked through all the symptoms we couldn't bring her in with. She's been ill once in her life. Just before 10 months she contracted Norovirus and was poorly for 4 days and recovered much faster than my husband! She's never been ill apart from that! She's immersed in social activity and she even spent the day with a kid with hand, foot and mouth without anything!
> I'd love to understand this further. I'm the same, haven't been ill in over 10 years. Maybe only ill 4-5 times in my whole life. I didn't realise immune systems were that heraditary?!

Being ill a lot was one of my biggest worries, my sister in law works in a nursery and is always ill bless her. DS is incredible he has been in this new nursery 2.5 months and not been ill at all *touch wood* not bad going as it is a new place but I guess it's summer? When he is poorly he shakes it very quickly and the doctor said to me it's good for their immune systems to be introduced to lots of different bugs, I wouldn't feel that way if he got ill often and took a while to shift things though! We aren't a sickly family at all, I tend to get ill from being run down but we all shift things very quickly, I put it down to the fact partly we were all breastfed but understand there would be more to it than that! (not looking for a debate!!) Having said that my mum was fed condensed cream as a baby and she's never ill either so perhaps not lol.


----------



## Palestrina

Jchihuahua said:


> indy and lara said:
> 
> 
> I think the image of young children lined up drawing is a deliberately provocative one. This is not my experience of 3-5 education and I don't believe it is a common one in birth to 3 settings either.
> 
> Agreed.Click to expand...


How is it provocative? They are sitting at a table, next to each other. Just goes to show you that anyone who has a problem with it can spin it and say "they are lined up, military-fashion, forced to color against their will!" haha.


----------



## Palestrina

Abz1982 said:


> ...
> It has been well documented that learning to read later is better........I don't push LO to try and learn to read....but learning early never effected me badly either.
> .

Huh? Where is this documentation, I've never heard of it. Please share if you have access to any.


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## Dragonfly

William is 3.5 and wants to go to pre school to play with other kids, he tells me this in great lengths after having a look about on the open day. He loves people, isnt clung to me and confident. I dont feel bad about sending him somewhere he wants to go to. I am not doing it for any other benefit other than he wants to go. I wouldnt send him earlier tough. he is a securely attached confident child who when he sees other children goes and plays. best way to learn is through play. I wouldnt ever force him to be somewhere he didnt want to be.


----------



## Natsku

Palestrina said:


> Abz1982 said:
> 
> 
> ...
> It has been well documented that learning to read later is better........I don't push LO to try and learn to read....but learning early never effected me badly either.
> .
> 
> Huh? Where is this documentation, I've never heard of it. Please share if you have access to any.Click to expand...

Just googled and found this
https://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2007/nov/22/earlyyearseducation.schools


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## Ozzieshunni

There are many people that say learning to read (i.e. being FORCED to learn to read) before age seven can cause a child to develop coping mechanisms. This means that their brains don't actually learn to read properly and neural pathways are formed to "cope" with reading. It's the same with teaching a child, say, calculus before their brains can handle it. I remember this from my child development classes in school.


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## Seity

I've never heard of the reading thing either. I guess my whole family was just naturally ready to read at 3 and 4 years old because that's when my mom taught us and we're all avid readers.


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## Ozzieshunni

Like I said, if the child learns naturally before then, that's fine. It's when it's expected that they do something by a certain age. That's when the trouble starts.


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## JASMAK

I agree with the learning too early. If they are genuinely interested, go for it, but, I think we should teach children with what THEY are interested in. My kids were all different....very different. But they are still learning. Education, espesially at that age, should be fun and play-based.


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## PepsiChic

JASMAK said:


> I agree with the learning too early. If they are genuinely interested, go for it, but, I think we should teach children with what THEY are interested in. My kids were all different....very different. But they are still learning. Education, espesially at that age, should be fun and play-based.

I agree!

Barry loves to draw, its still scribbles and circles but he loves colours and drawing. He also LOVES his books, he'll make me read about 10 of them before bedtime :haha: and hed make me rread them again if i let him get away with it. 

But his main thing to do is play! and run in circles :dohh:


----------



## Palestrina

Natsku said:


> Palestrina said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Abz1982 said:
> 
> 
> ...
> It has been well documented that learning to read later is better........I don't push LO to try and learn to read....but learning early never effected me badly either.
> .
> 
> Huh? Where is this documentation, I've never heard of it. Please share if you have access to any.Click to expand...
> 
> Just googled and found this
> https://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2007/nov/22/earlyyearseducation.schoolsClick to expand...

Interesting, thanks for posting. Not sure I buy it though.


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## XJessicaX

I agree. Up to a point its important to indulge a child in their interests. I do think though at ONE point a child should be pushed a bit to read if they still show no interest. Reading really isnt an optional choice.


----------



## indy and lara

Palestrina said:


> Jchihuahua said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> indy and lara said:
> 
> 
> I think the image of young children lined up drawing is a deliberately provocative one. This is not my experience of 3-5 education and I don't believe it is a common one in birth to 3 settings either.
> 
> Agreed.Click to expand...
> 
> 
> How is it provocative? They are sitting at a table, next to each other. Just goes to show you that anyone who has a problem with it can spin it and say "they are lined up, military-fashion, forced to color against their will!" haha.Click to expand...

I'm not terribly sure what you mean? 

It is a provocative image because it is not representative of the Nursery/ pre-school experience. Should the picture have been kids playing in a sand pit or sitting at a round table playing a game then it would be a much more realistic representation of nursery. Most people would not be comfortable with the idea of young children sitting in a row, facing a wall.


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## RedRose

Today I am considering sending Lily to nursery because she is annoying me and I'm tired.

Is this wrong? :lol:


----------



## ginab

RedRose said:


> Today I am considering sending Lily to nursery because she is annoying me and I'm tired.
> 
> Is this wrong? :lol:

heheee love this post! 
I Feel the same too, i think its nice to have a break from your child so you can be a better mum and have more energy to give them quality play time. If you dont have the support around you for whatever reason I can see why it would be beneficial in a way, I dont need to send Maggie but it would be nice for a couple of hrs a week to be able to have a break.


----------



## Natsku

Palestrina said:


> Natsku said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Palestrina said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Abz1982 said:
> 
> 
> ...
> It has been well documented that learning to read later is better........I don't push LO to try and learn to read....but learning early never effected me badly either.
> .
> 
> Huh? Where is this documentation, I've never heard of it. Please share if you have access to any.Click to expand...
> 
> Just googled and found this
> https://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2007/nov/22/earlyyearseducation.schoolsClick to expand...
> 
> Interesting, thanks for posting. Not sure I buy it though.Click to expand...

I buy it. They don't start learning to read til 7 here and they do much better in international comparisons so it makes sense to me. 
But some kids will just want to learn earlier. I learnt to read by the time I was 5 and still love reading but structured learning shouldn't start til later.


----------



## aliss

RedRose said:


> Today I am considering sending Lily to nursery because she is annoying me and I'm tired.
> 
> Is this wrong? :lol:

Maybe but I'll join your club!

Mine was up at 5am today after I got 7 hours broken sleep with bronchitis and peeing. I take back that sleep bragging from yesterday's thread...


----------



## Palestrina

indy and lara said:


> Palestrina said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jchihuahua said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> indy and lara said:
> 
> 
> I think the image of young children lined up drawing is a deliberately provocative one. This is not my experience of 3-5 education and I don't believe it is a common one in birth to 3 settings either.
> 
> Agreed.Click to expand...
> 
> 
> How is it provocative? They are sitting at a table, next to each other. Just goes to show you that anyone who has a problem with it can spin it and say "they are lined up, military-fashion, forced to color against their will!" haha.Click to expand...
> 
> I'm not terribly sure what you mean?
> 
> It is a provocative image because it is not representative of the Nursery/ pre-school experience. Should the picture have been kids playing in a sand pit or sitting at a round table playing a game then it would be a much more realistic representation of nursery. Most people would not be comfortable with the idea of young children sitting in a row, facing a wall.Click to expand...

I am perfectly comfortable with it because I know for a fact that it is not representative of their entire day at nursery. It is impossible to keep kids still like that in real life, and a bit of time spent drawing and focused on their own drawing is perfectly fine. As a teacher I have followed guidelines of "cooperative learning" as it is called here in NY (kids sat in groups facing each other during math etc) and can see that while this type of setting works fabulously for certain children other kids are too easily distracted by their peers to be able to focus on any kind of organized activity. That's why it is important for teachers to activate all the Multiple Intelligence theories within their classroom setting. I love it when my son goes off on his own and looks for sticks at the playground, and I love it when other times he plays with other kids. All of it has a place in his development. Right now he's woken up and is sitting in his crib alone (no toys) and is babbling to himself. Who knows what kind of creative play is going on his mind, and soon enough he'll call me to get him and I'll go. Children need variety in order to learn and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that picture. I see kids focused on their drawings, you see kids being forced to look at a wall.


----------



## indy and lara

Palestrina said:


> indy and lara said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Palestrina said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jchihuahua said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> indy and lara said:
> 
> 
> I think the image of young children lined up drawing is a deliberately provocative one. This is not my experience of 3-5 education and I don't believe it is a common one in birth to 3 settings either.
> 
> Agreed.Click to expand...
> 
> 
> How is it provocative? They are sitting at a table, next to each other. Just goes to show you that anyone who has a problem with it can spin it and say "they are lined up, military-fashion, forced to color against their will!" haha.Click to expand...
> 
> I'm not terribly sure what you mean?
> 
> It is a provocative image because it is not representative of the Nursery/ pre-school experience. Should the picture have been kids playing in a sand pit or sitting at a round table playing a game then it would be a much more realistic representation of nursery. Most people would not be comfortable with the idea of young children sitting in a row, facing a wall.Click to expand...
> 
> I am perfectly comfortable with it because I know for a fact that it is not representative of their entire day at nursery. It is impossible to keep kids still like that in real life, and a bit of time spent drawing and focused on their own drawing is perfectly fine. As a teacher I have followed guidelines of "cooperative learning" as it is called here in NY (kids sat in groups facing each other during math etc) and can see that while this type of setting works fabulously for certain children other kids are too easily distracted by their peers to be able to focus on any kind of organized activity. That's why it is important for teachers to activate all the Multiple Intelligence theories within their classroom setting. I love it when my son goes off on his own and looks for sticks at the playground, and I love it when other times he plays with other kids. All of it has a place in his development. Right now he's woken up and is sitting in his crib alone (no toys) and is babbling to himself. Who knows what kind of creative play is going on his mind, and soon enough he'll call me to get him and I'll go. Children need variety in order to learn and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that picture. I see kids focused on their drawings, you see kids being forced to look at a wall.Click to expand...

 I am teacher with many, many years of experience. My point all along is that this photo does not represent what happens in a Nursery. If I was an outsider seeing this picture I would be horrified at the suggestion that this is what 3 years olds (or younger) do in pre-school. 

I have never seen a group of 3 year olds sitting facing a wall for any activity. Yes some children do need quiet spaces for some activities but not like this. I am not sure where wall facing in rows would fit in with Gardener's Multiple Intelligence theories? Activities like drawing offer the opportunity to co-operate as long as you physically set out the environment in suitable way. We would never have structured lessons in a preschool setting, whether that is formal teaching of reading or of maths. Now daughter is now 3 and has started pre-school. Should I ever hear that her Nursery were formally teaching reading at this age she would be out of there in a blink of an eye.


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## XJessicaX

I would LOVE my nursery to formally teach reading! (I think they possibly do in the older class) I was reading very well by 3 years old as were my siblings. My mother was a fantastic teacher and to this day my passion for reading continues.
I don't really understand what the issue is? If the child was being bullied into reading then this of course is unacceptable, but 3 year old's do what they want most of the time so only the willing would actually sit quietly and learn to read.


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## Natsku

I really don't want Maria to have any formal structured teaching before she is 6. I really think they should just be learning through play until at least that age.


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## Ozzieshunni

Natsku said:


> I really don't want Maria to have any formal structured teaching before she is 6. I really think they should just be learning through play until at least that age.

I agree with this 110%. You would actually be hard pressed to find a nursery that would even contemplate teaching reading. It's just not good for their development.


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## XJessicaX

hmmm. I disagree. I would want my LO to be able to read by 6, not just starting out! By 6 here, that's 2 years into primary school. Learning IS a form of play time and reading is a wonderful thing for a child to learn which boosts imagination.


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## Ozzieshunni

I don't deny that reading is great. What I'm saying is that there is no need for them to learn to read before they are developmentally ready. Any child development class will say the same thing that I am.


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## Natsku

I don't mind if Maria learns to read by herself/by reading books with me before then but I don't want someone actively teaching her to read before then. I really think teaching starts far too young in the UK and it doesn't benefit the children (well it would benefit some children I expect but not the average child)


----------



## Ozzieshunni

Natsku said:


> I don't mind if Maria learns to read by herself/by reading books with me before then but I don't want someone actively teaching her to read before then. I really think teaching starts far too young in the UK and it doesn't benefit the children (well it would benefit some children I expect but not the average child)

This is what I mean. It's not healthy for children as young as three to be actively taught to read in a school setting.


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## Liesje

I don't see why parents are so quick to jam information down their child's throat. Just because they're "advanced" for their age doesn't mean they'll be smart adults.


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## Pearls18

Although in the UK they start school from 4/5 they're not exactly strapped to desks doing sums, it's alright in countries where your childcare is very cheap I personally am relieved Elliot can start school from 5 as it saves me £800 a month and I don't see how it's done us harm starting school from 4 or 5, my best friend is a reception teacher and it sounds like it's mostly play.


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## Ozzieshunni

We're not talking about starting school. We're talking about structured reading, maths, history, etc.


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## Liesje

When my son is 4 I won't have much choice but to send him to kindergarten. Our daycare is $2,000/m as it is and goes up 5% every year. I can't really afford $30,000 a year to keep him from being taught to read lol


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## Pearls18

Ozzieshunni said:


> We're not talking about starting school. We're talking about structured reading, maths, history, etc.

I was just going off the point where someone said the UK sends kids to school too early.


----------



## Ozzieshunni

MarineWAG said:


> Ozzieshunni said:
> 
> 
> We're not talking about starting school. We're talking about structured reading, maths, history, etc.
> 
> I was just going off the point where someone said the UK sends kids to school too early.Click to expand...

In the US, kindergarten starts at age 4, almost 5. However, kindergarten is more about learning through play, as it should be. I am disgusted by the amount of homework P1s have in the UK!


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## TennisGal

I don't think it always has to be disgusting. Learning - even home work- can be fun!

My mum and dad - especially my dad - gave us a huge passion for learning. We'd learn through actions, playing...but also through reading things with him and becoming interested. I could read when I was three, and I had 'home work' set by my Dad when I was at primary school. Basic Maths, spelling...and also questions about something interesting we'd learned together. I can remember being completely fascinated.

I don't know if it had anything to do with it, but academically I have always achieved. I - personally - credit my parents for that.

I don't think kids should be stapled to their desks, I don't think they should be forced into anything at an early age...but I do think that you can fire an interest at an early age, without taking anything away from a childhood.

My dad is from a culture and family which puts a huge emphasis on learning, and he quite possibly had the most fun childhood...after mine and my girls ;)...I've ever heard of.


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## Ozzieshunni

Yes, but I think that there is too much learning done inside a classroom and not enough outside the classroom.


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## TennisGal

Nearly all of mine was done outside...I personally feel a bit sorry for teachers. They either do too much or too little! I am quite happy with a balance. You never get the carefree days of your childhood back, but similarly there does have to be a point at which the basics are taught. You can't rely on all children having parents being interested in learning, unfortunately!


----------



## Pearls18

Ozzieshunni said:


> Yes, but I think that there is too much learning done inside a classroom and not enough outside the classroom.

 I didn't do homework until I was 12 regularly, 5 year olds don't have homework lol, I will actively be encouraging learning at home whether it's with homework or not. I think parents should be a driving force in a child's education and not rely on just classroom teaching.


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## special_kala

I don't see a problem with young kids having homework as long as its fun. Surely some of the reason for homework is to get the parents more involved.

Reception and year 1 are not about sitting at a table and learning. It's still learning through play.


----------



## Jchihuahua

Ozzieshunni said:


> Yes, but I think that there is too much learning done inside a classroom and not enough outside the classroom.

There is a huge emphasis on outdoor learning in primary schools these days, especially in nursery and reception. All kids in nursery and reception have outdoor provision all day long. My class (reception, aged 4 and 5) are able to play indoors or outdoors as and when they choose. We plan and set up activities through observing things they are interested in both indoors and outdoors and both areas are planned in an equal amount of detail.


----------



## DaisyBee

Ozzieshunni said:


> MarineWAG said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ozzieshunni said:
> 
> 
> We're not talking about starting school. We're talking about structured reading, maths, history, etc.
> 
> I was just going off the point where someone said the UK sends kids to school too early.Click to expand...
> 
> In the US, kindergarten starts at age 4, almost 5. However, kindergarten is more about learning through play, as it should be. I am disgusted by the amount of homework P1s have in the UK!Click to expand...

Kindergarten is age 5 here in the us. Megans bday is December so she will be 5 1/2 when starting. I think the rule for most schools is sept 1st. They have to be 5 by sept first to start school that year. So if someone's bday is sept 2nd they would have to wait until basically age 6 to start. Some schools are starting to let some younger kids in but very special circumstances.


----------



## Natsku

Jchihuahua said:


> Ozzieshunni said:
> 
> 
> Yes, but I think that there is too much learning done inside a classroom and not enough outside the classroom.
> 
> There is a huge emphasis on outdoor learning in primary schools these days, especially in nursery and reception. All kids in nursery and reception have outdoor provision all day long. My class (reception, aged 4 and 5) are able to play indoors or outdoors as and when they choose. We plan and set up activities through observing things they are interested in both indoors and outdoors and both areas are planned in an equal amount of detail.Click to expand...

Thats good. Really good for them to be able to spend lots of time outdoors. I'd be interested in sending Maria to a Forest Kindergarden but I don't know if they have any over here, but they sound really good.


----------



## Ozzieshunni

DaisyBee said:


> Ozzieshunni said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MarineWAG said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ozzieshunni said:
> 
> 
> We're not talking about starting school. We're talking about structured reading, maths, history, etc.
> 
> I was just going off the point where someone said the UK sends kids to school too early.Click to expand...
> 
> In the US, kindergarten starts at age 4, almost 5. However, kindergarten is more about learning through play, as it should be. I am disgusted by the amount of homework P1s have in the UK!Click to expand...
> 
> Kindergarten is age 5 here in the us. Megans bday is December so she will be 5 1/2 when starting. I think the rule for most schools is sept 1st. They have to be 5 by sept first to start school that year. So if someone's bday is sept 2nd they would have to wait until basically age 6 to start. Some schools are starting to let some younger kids in but very special circumstances.Click to expand...


Yes, I know. I'm from California. I started at 4.


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## DaisyBee

Thats not common in my area of the country though.... 99% of kids in my area start at 5. 

And I do realize you are from the us as well.

My understanding is that kindergarten has changed a lot recently here.... Kindergarten is more about learning and less about play, which I don't agree with. Our school district has curriculum for full day but the kids are only going half days. The teachers are expected to cram all that learning into less time which means less time for fun and extra activities that go along with a concept. And kids are having homework in kindergarten. I've heard many parents complaining about it. We never had homework that young when i was in school.


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## freckleonear

I'm completely against homework in primary school. Funnily enough I've just come across a lovely blog post by a mother who opts out of homework for her children: https://www.heathershumaker.com/blog/2012/09/12/why-we-say-no-to-homework/.


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## aliss

I will be sending Alex to preschool asap, not that I think it is essential for kids in general, but I am really starting to notice a lack of comprehension in French and I just can't do much more than the basics for him so he needs the "socialization" in that sense.


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## Natsku

I remember begging my teacher to give me homework when I was in primary school. She gave me some and then I didn't do it :haha: 
Definitely don't agree with giving homework to young children, not til at least 11/12 years old.


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## special_kala

30 minutes of homework a day??? how old is a 3rd grader?


----------



## OmarsMum

My cousin just started grade one (he will be 6 next month), last year at KG2 they were studying multiplication! 

Pre-school (KG1) starts at 3 yrs here, the cut off date is 15th September. He was in structured class in KG1 & KG2 & he used to go to school from 8 am till 3.30 pm. he had homework at KG2, now at grade one he gets homework, assignments & quizzes every 3 weeks :wacko:

The school Omar will go to, they don't start writing or any structured learning before Grade 3 (7+ yrs)


----------



## indy and lara

MarineWAG said:


> Ozzieshunni said:
> 
> 
> Yes, but I think that there is too much learning done inside a classroom and not enough outside the classroom.
> 
> I didn't do homework until I was 12 regularly, *5 year olds don't have homework lol, *I will actively be encouraging learning at home whether it's with homework or not. I think parents should be a driving force in a child's education and not rely on just classroom teaching.Click to expand...

Unfortunately 5 year olds do have homework. It is pretty bog standard in most schools. Homework is issued in every year group weekly in our school and that is the norm.



Jchihuahua said:


> Ozzieshunni said:
> 
> 
> Yes, but I think that there is too much learning done inside a classroom and not enough outside the classroom.
> 
> There is a huge emphasis on outdoor learning in primary schools these days, especially in nursery and reception. All kids in nursery and reception have outdoor provision all day long. My class (reception, aged 4 and 5) are able to play indoors or outdoors as and when they choose. We plan and set up activities through observing things they are interested in both indoors and outdoors and both areas are planned in an equal amount of detail.Click to expand...

I agree Jchihuahua. Our school layout is a square and has a completely enclosed, secure, centre garden. We have spent the last few years developing this as a learning space and in the next month will have an outdoor classroom installed with seating for 60. We have raised beds for veggies, we are growing a willow tunnel (well, trying too. It always looks half dead to me:haha:), we have a raised pond and wildlife garden. Every class will be timetabled weekly in the classroom and we also use the outside space daily. Staff are all orienteering trained and have seasonal walks as a whole school, etc. I could go on. Outdoor learning is huge is Scotland and a vital part of the new curriculum. I think people often don't realised what actually goes on in schools when they are not in there themselves.


----------



## Emzywemzy

aliss said:


> ^True
> 
> And a lot of parents start using AP methods because they have a difficult/fussy baby, not because they created one. When you're dealing with a certain personality, all those little tips of "let them get used to the light/vacuum" or "let them self settle" doesn't always work. Of course, people with more easygoing babies may still choose AP methods but some of us do it as we really had no alternative, it helped us cope.

Agree with this totally. When I had Holly I had no intention of babywearing or bedsharing or rocking to sleep or letting her sleep on me and carrying her round all day. But that's what I did because that's what she wanted!


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## nikkip75

.


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## Emzywemzy

louandivy said:


> Ahhhh this is a great read! Funnily enough I have literally just got off the phone with a nursery after arranging a viewing on thursday - we are only planning on one morning a week unless Ivy needs more to settle in properly as I need the time to concentrate on my degree and /ivy really loves being around other children. I would have been happy not sending her at all if she didn't seem ready though, I know she is thriving regardless. I don't know about other mums but because /ivy is a July baby I feel like I lose out on a whole year with her once she starts school compared to mums of September babies! I have always felt guilty for not sending her to nursery though, people act like she is going to end up socially impaired because of it.

I have done this too, Holly is an August baby and so will be starting school 2 weeks after turning 4, so she misses out on a year of preschool. She's now going to playschool 2 afternoons a week and loves it! Plus it gives me some one on one time with Evie.


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## Jchihuahua

indy and lara said:


> I think people often don't realised what actually goes on in schools when they are not in there themselves.

This is so true.

As well as an extensive Nursery outdoor area and separate huge reception class area we also have specific outdoor learning areas for key stage 1 and 2, plus an amphitheatre for a whole year group to have lessons outdoors. There is a pond, poly tunnels for gardening, each class have a raised bed for planting, we have greenhouses, fruit trees, an area for den building, wildlife area. Loads of stuff and huge amounts of money have been invested.


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## Palestrina

indy and lara said:


> Palestrina said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> indy and lara said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Palestrina said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jchihuahua said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> indy and lara said:
> 
> 
> I think the image of young children lined up drawing is a deliberately provocative one. This is not my experience of 3-5 education and I don't believe it is a common one in birth to 3 settings either.
> 
> Agreed.Click to expand...
> 
> 
> How is it provocative? They are sitting at a table, next to each other. Just goes to show you that anyone who has a problem with it can spin it and say "they are lined up, military-fashion, forced to color against their will!" haha.Click to expand...
> 
> I'm not terribly sure what you mean?
> 
> It is a provocative image because it is not representative of the Nursery/ pre-school experience. Should the picture have been kids playing in a sand pit or sitting at a round table playing a game then it would be a much more realistic representation of nursery. Most people would not be comfortable with the idea of young children sitting in a row, facing a wall.Click to expand...
> 
> I am perfectly comfortable with it because I know for a fact that it is not representative of their entire day at nursery. It is impossible to keep kids still like that in real life, and a bit of time spent drawing and focused on their own drawing is perfectly fine. As a teacher I have followed guidelines of "cooperative learning" as it is called here in NY (kids sat in groups facing each other during math etc) and can see that while this type of setting works fabulously for certain children other kids are too easily distracted by their peers to be able to focus on any kind of organized activity. That's why it is important for teachers to activate all the Multiple Intelligence theories within their classroom setting. I love it when my son goes off on his own and looks for sticks at the playground, and I love it when other times he plays with other kids. All of it has a place in his development. Right now he's woken up and is sitting in his crib alone (no toys) and is babbling to himself. Who knows what kind of creative play is going on his mind, and soon enough he'll call me to get him and I'll go. Children need variety in order to learn and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that picture. I see kids focused on their drawings, you see kids being forced to look at a wall.Click to expand...
> 
> I am teacher with many, many years of experience. My point all along is that this photo does not represent what happens in a Nursery. If I was an outsider seeing this picture I would be horrified at the suggestion that this is what 3 years olds (or younger) do in pre-school.
> 
> I have never seen a group of 3 year olds sitting facing a wall for any activity. Yes some children do need quiet spaces for some activities but not like this. I am not sure where wall facing in rows would fit in with Gardener's Multiple Intelligence theories? Activities like drawing offer the opportunity to co-operate as long as you physically set out the environment in suitable way. We would never have structured lessons in a preschool setting, whether that is formal teaching of reading or of maths. Now daughter is now 3 and has started pre-school. Should I ever hear that her Nursery were formally teaching reading at this age she would be out of there in a blink of an eye.Click to expand...

I don't think cooperative learning is for everyone, that's my whole point. If I see that my child performs better in school by sitting by himself facing a wall you can bet that I'm going to ask the teacher and the school to do accommodate that need. A 3 yr old? I don't know, never had one before. But I'd sure be impressed if someone got a class of 3yr olds to sit like that and draw for 10min. They sure don't look bothered by it and I cannot fathom why it's so upsetting to anyone but hey, to each their own ykwim?

Gardner's MI indicates that a child has a capacity for both interpersonal and intrapersonal intelligence. Kids playing together in a sand pit = interpersonal. A child sitting alone (whether there is a wall or no wall) = intrapersonal. Either way, the wall is irrelevant as far as I'm concerned. All rooms have 4 walls and there's no way around that.


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## Ozzieshunni

I've never faced a child to the wall as a teacher :wacko:


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## Pearls18

indy and lara said:


> MarineWAG said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ozzieshunni said:
> 
> 
> Yes, but I think that there is too much learning done inside a classroom and not enough outside the classroom.
> 
> I didn't do homework until I was 12 regularly, *5 year olds don't have homework lol, *I will actively be encouraging learning at home whether it's with homework or not. I think parents should be a driving force in a child's education and not rely on just classroom teaching.Click to expand...
> 
> Unfortunately 5 year olds do have homework. It is pretty bog standard in most schools. Homework is issued in every year group weekly in our school and that is the norm.
> 
> 
> 
> Jchihuahua said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ozzieshunni said:
> 
> 
> Yes, but I think that there is too much learning done inside a classroom and not enough outside the classroom.Click to expand...
> 
> There is a huge emphasis on outdoor learning in primary schools these days, especially in nursery and reception. All kids in nursery and reception have outdoor provision all day long. My class (reception, aged 4 and 5) are able to play indoors or outdoors as and when they choose. We plan and set up activities through observing things they are interested in both indoors and outdoors and both areas are planned in an equal amount of detail.Click to expand...
> 
> I agree Jchihuahua. Our school layout is a square and has a completely enclosed, secure, centre garden. We have spent the last few years developing this as a learning space and in the next month will have an outdoor classroom installed with seating for 60. We have raised beds for veggies, we are growing a willow tunnel (well, trying too. It always looks half dead to me:haha:), we have a raised pond and wildlife garden. Every class will be timetabled weekly in the classroom and we also use the outside space daily. Staff are all orienteering trained and have seasonal walks as a whole school, etc. I could go on. Outdoor learning is huge is Scotland and a vital part of the new curriculum. I think people often don't realised what actually goes on in schools when they are not in there themselves.Click to expand...

Well 5 year olds in Wales don't have homework then, or at least not in my home county, no I haven't stepped foot in a primary school for many years but I have friends who are teachers one who is a TA and 2 of which told me their schools don't do homework for infants (both schools in Wales) yes I just asked them lol (only had 2 responses so far....)


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## indy and lara

MarineWAG said:


> indy and lara said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MarineWAG said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ozzieshunni said:
> 
> 
> Yes, but I think that there is too much learning done inside a classroom and not enough outside the classroom.
> 
> I didn't do homework until I was 12 regularly, *5 year olds don't have homework lol, *I will actively be encouraging learning at home whether it's with homework or not. I think parents should be a driving force in a child's education and not rely on just classroom teaching.Click to expand...
> 
> Unfortunately 5 year olds do have homework. It is pretty bog standard in most schools. Homework is issued in every year group weekly in our school and that is the norm.
> 
> 
> 
> Jchihuahua said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ozzieshunni said:
> 
> 
> Yes, but I think that there is too much learning done inside a classroom and not enough outside the classroom.Click to expand...
> 
> There is a huge emphasis on outdoor learning in primary schools these days, especially in nursery and reception. All kids in nursery and reception have outdoor provision all day long. My class (reception, aged 4 and 5) are able to play indoors or outdoors as and when they choose. We plan and set up activities through observing things they are interested in both indoors and outdoors and both areas are planned in an equal amount of detail.Click to expand...
> 
> I agree Jchihuahua. Our school layout is a square and has a completely enclosed, secure, centre garden. We have spent the last few years developing this as a learning space and in the next month will have an outdoor classroom installed with seating for 60. We have raised beds for veggies, we are growing a willow tunnel (well, trying too. It always looks half dead to me:haha:), we have a raised pond and wildlife garden. Every class will be timetabled weekly in the classroom and we also use the outside space daily. Staff are all orienteering trained and have seasonal walks as a whole school, etc. I could go on. Outdoor learning is huge is Scotland and a vital part of the new curriculum. I think people often don't realised what actually goes on in schools when they are not in there themselves.Click to expand...
> 
> Well 5 year olds in Wales don't have homework then, or at least not in my home county, no I haven't stepped foot in a primary school for many years but I have friends who are teachers one who is a TA and 2 of which told me their schools don't do homework for infants (both schools in Wales) yes I just asked them lol (only had 2 responses so far....)Click to expand...

I can assure you they do in Scotland. :winkwink: Sadly am about to go in and collect it.


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## nov_mum

Wow starting school at 4?? That is plain mad! Why can't kids just be kid's for a few years?? My oldest is nearly 4 and in our country they need to be at school by 6 but lots start at 5. Depending on how he goes I will be leaning closer to the age of 6 based on what I have read about boys and their readiness for structured schooling. If he appears ready earlier then by all means but 4? They have barely learnt to pee in the loo hehe. I believe there is too much emphasis placed on reading, writing and math from an early age and I truly believe that gaining people skills, empathy, understanding of their environments and widening world is more essential than how to spell etc. There is plenty of time and in my book, it is quality not quantity.


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## Pearls18

nov_mum said:


> Wow starting school at 4?? That is plain mad! Why can't kids just be kid's for a few years?? My oldest is nearly 4 and in our country they need to be at school by 6 but lots start at 5. Depending on how he goes I will be leaning closer to the age of 6 based on what I have read about boys and their readiness for structured schooling. If he appears ready earlier then by all means but 4? They have barely learnt to pee in the loo hehe. I believe there is too much emphasis placed on reading, writing and math from an early age and I truly believe that gaining people skills, empathy, understanding of their environments and widening world is more essential than how to spell etc. There is plenty of time and in my book, it is quality not quantity.

I loved school, I don't see why going to school young is robbing children of their childhood? As has been stated they're not lined up being forse fed algebra, it is pretty much constructive play, and as I said earlier I am grateful because I couldn't afford £800 a month (not to mention we would like another child) in childcare fees until he is 6. I read to my son now and will encourage him because think reading and writing are very important, they are the basis for communicating.


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## Pearls18

Wow only just remembered what the original post was, this has gone way off topic lol.


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## Ozzieshunni

However, according to my child development classes, forcing a child to learn to read or write before they are ready can cause frustration, resentment, and an overall hate of the skill that could benefit them. I want to make it enjoyable and not having my child do worksheets or workbooks where they just copy letters over and over.


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## Dragonfly

They start school here at 4, always been the way. William will be 4 next year and in primary one.


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## Dragonfly

Ozzieshunni said:


> However, according to my child development classes, forcing a child to learn to read or write before they are ready can cause frustration, resentment, and an overall hate of the skill that could benefit them. I want to make it enjoyable and not having my child do worksheets or workbooks where they just copy letters over and over.

Maybe this happened to my other half as he even left high school with the inability to read and write right at all. He gets annoyed and gives up. No one ever helped him with it except someone read his exam questions out to him where he had to write it down. Think he is dyslexic. My brother was dyslexic to and largly ignored in school. I hope this isnt the case these days.


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## Palestrina

Ozzieshunni said:


> I've never faced a child to the wall as a teacher :wacko:

Well I have. You must not have taught at inner-city schools in Harlem like I have, where space can be a daunting issue with 30 or more students crowding a teeny tiny little room. Depending on what the activity is I may clear the middle of my classroom of desks and push them against the walls. That way the space is clear for activity while other children work at their desk and they alternate between stations.


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## Ozzieshunni

Palestrina said:


> Ozzieshunni said:
> 
> 
> I've never faced a child to the wall as a teacher :wacko:
> 
> Well I have. You must not have taught at inner-city schools in Harlem like I have, where space can be a daunting issue with 30 or more students crowding a teeny tiny little room. Depending on what the activity is I may clear the middle of my classroom of desks and push them against the walls. That way the space is clear for activity while other children work at their desk and they alternate between stations.Click to expand...

No, but I did teach in low income neighborhoods in California.....where space was an issue as well....


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## Dragonfly

Never had that in primary schools, believe it or not no one was punished. and I went to a convent primary school. I was called up once or twice on a misunderstanding with the teacher who didnt hear me asking if I could go to the loo as she had loads of pupils around her talking, I thought she said yes. Just got sent to head nun who talked to you and that was it. No punishing. No scolding. Was actually a nice school.


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## freckleonear

A few pages back someone asked for information about learning to read later rather than earlier, but I couldn't find my links at the time. So sorry for jumping in a bit late!

Unfortunately I can't share the full article, but the abstract explains the basics.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0885200612000397

There's also some really interesting articles here about the negative effects of our early school starting age and our formal curriculum. Early Childhood Action is proposing an Alternative Foundation Phase instead of the EYFS. 

https://docs.google.com/open?id=1jkY9e95FncjN2lqTY-9Z4V_OiVI2vOqtJ9KKU2rQwFyVebSaW7BZfTcXCSAN

https://docs.google.com/open?id=1plVpslKZpRGk6C9q-jgLvfuFdhNivb5NnYEvFwXS8sgihjEHw1NP950pDI7C

https://docs.google.com/open?id=1agfp2heii3Y-LSoUHlmTj1dFof7ZakfHd2Z-cSVH4U6Pm0BKaW3LF4eZJitz

I know there are some brilliant teachers on here who are passionate about their jobs, but sadly schools vary hugely. Our local primary school (which I attended when I was little) is one of the best schools in the town, but they have structured play at lunchtime where the dinner ladies blow a whistle every 5 minutes and the children have to switch between activities. If they are good each group gets 5 minutes free play on the adventure playground. :cry:


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## JASMAK

freckleonear said:


> A few pages back someone asked for information about learning to read later rather than earlier, but I couldn't find my links at the time. So sorry for jumping in a bit late!
> 
> Unfortunately I can't share the full article, but the abstract explains the basics.
> https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0885200612000397
> 
> There's also some really interesting articles here about the negative effects of our early school starting age and our formal curriculum. Early Childhood Action is proposing an Alternative Foundation Phase instead of the EYFS.
> 
> https://docs.google.com/open?id=1jkY9e95FncjN2lqTY-9Z4V_OiVI2vOqtJ9KKU2rQwFyVebSaW7BZfTcXCSAN
> 
> https://docs.google.com/open?id=1plVpslKZpRGk6C9q-jgLvfuFdhNivb5NnYEvFwXS8sgihjEHw1NP950pDI7C
> 
> https://docs.google.com/open?id=1agfp2heii3Y-LSoUHlmTj1dFof7ZakfHd2Z-cSVH4U6Pm0BKaW3LF4eZJitz
> 
> I know there are some brilliant teachers on here who are passionate about their jobs, but sadly schools vary hugely. Our local primary school (which I attended when I was little) is one of the best schools in the town, but they have structured play at lunchtime where the dinner ladies blow a whistle every 5 minutes and the children have to switch between activities. If they are good each group gets 5 minutes free play on the adventure playground. :cry:

Omg!!!


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## XJessicaX

I don't get it. Why is switching between activities so horrifying? Surely it gives everyone equal turn?


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## freckleonear

Unstructured outdoor play promotes cooperation, creativity, critical thinking, discovery, emotional intelligence, exploring nature, imaginative play, independence, perseverance, problem solving, relaxation, self-confidence, sharing ideas, social interaction, etc. There is lots of research linking it to improved behavioural, cognitive and physical functions. School is full of structured activities anyway, no need for it at lunchtime too!

I have wonderful memories of things I did at school during lunchtime - collecting spiders and woodlice to observe, learning about different plants, creating things with sticks and stones, inventing imaginative worlds with friends - somehow I can't imagine a glorified PE lesson with hoops and skipping ropes contributing much to a happy childhood.


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## JASMAK

Just time to veg...not do 'what you are told' to do... Can't imagine not having my breaks during work....Id be peed off.


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## Liesje

Call me a conspiracy theorist but I'm fairly certain (at least in Canada with all-day kindergarten starting at age 4), that they're just trying to create a new breed of sheeple.


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## JASMAK

Liesje said:


> Call me a conspiracy theorist but I'm fairly certain (at least in Canada with all-day kindergarten starting at age 4), that they're just trying to create a new breed of sheeple.

LOL! Our kindegarten starts the YEAR you turn 5 in BC


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## Liesje

JASMAK said:


> Liesje said:
> 
> 
> Call me a conspiracy theorist but I'm fairly certain (at least in Canada with all-day kindergarten starting at age 4), that they're just trying to create a new breed of sheeple.
> 
> LOL! Our kindegarten starts the YEAR you turn 5 in BCClick to expand...

In Ontario, junior kindergarten starts at 4, senior kindergarten at 5 and grade 1 at 6. 
My friend's daughter turns 4 in December so they suggested she start at 3 instead of waiting the following year.


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## JASMAK

Liesje said:


> JASMAK said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Liesje said:
> 
> 
> Call me a conspiracy theorist but I'm fairly certain (at least in Canada with all-day kindergarten starting at age 4), that they're just trying to create a new breed of sheeple.
> 
> LOL! Our kindegarten starts the YEAR you turn 5 in BCClick to expand...
> 
> In Ontario, junior kindergarten starts at 4, senior kindergarten at 5 and grade 1 at 6.
> My friend's daughter turns 4 in December so they suggested she start at 3 instead of waiting the following year.Click to expand...

Good grief! I wouldn't. Whats 'junior kindergarten'? Is it like preschool? Or structured like K? 3 and 4 is too young, IMO. Even K will be 'just' 5, when she starts, and I worry. At that age, those months make BIG differences!


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## Liesje

The claim it's "play based learning"... But it's structured like school.


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## JASMAK

I didnt even know it existed! Crazy. Learn something new everyday.


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## DaisyBee

https://www.waldorfinthehome.org/2008/02/teaching_reading_writing_and_s.html


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## Natsku

Structured playtime??!! That doesn't sound like fun at all :(


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## Tacey

I've never heard of structured play at lunch. That's horrendous!


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## Dragonfly

freckleonear said:


> Unstructured outdoor play promotes cooperation, creativity, critical thinking, discovery, emotional intelligence, exploring nature, imaginative play, independence, perseverance, problem solving, relaxation, self-confidence, sharing ideas, social interaction, etc. There is lots of research linking it to improved behavioural, cognitive and physical functions. School is full of structured activities anyway, no need for it at lunchtime too!
> 
> I have wonderful memories of things I did at school during lunchtime - collecting spiders and woodlice to observe, learning about different plants, creating things with sticks and stones, inventing imaginative worlds with friends - somehow I can't imagine a glorified PE lesson with hoops and skipping ropes contributing much to a happy childhood.

You are correct though, remembering when I was at school it was boring, repetitive and something you just had to do weather you liked it or not. I was always peed off as one of the classes above me got to go swimming, and that looked like fun then they stopped that. I always felt a need to break from routine it bored the head of me.


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## Ozzieshunni

Structured playtime? Who could even think that was okay? :wacko:


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## Kess

Palestrina said:


> Natsku said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Palestrina said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Abz1982 said:
> 
> 
> ...
> It has been well documented that learning to read later is better........I don't push LO to try and learn to read....but learning early never effected me badly either.
> .
> 
> Huh? Where is this documentation, I've never heard of it. Please share if you have access to any.Click to expand...
> 
> Just googled and found this
> https://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2007/nov/22/earlyyearseducation.schoolsClick to expand...
> 
> Interesting, thanks for posting. Not sure I buy it though.Click to expand...

There's also compelling evidence that learning maths early produces worse results than learning later. See Psychology Today. I also read a fantastic article about the joy of maths, written by a mathematician, and how the current maths curriculum squashes it and doesn't teach proper maths, but only a pale shadow of the real thing. Can't remember where to find it now though. :growlmad:



XJessicaX said:


> I agree. Up to a point its important to indulge a child in their interests. I do think though at ONE point a child should be pushed a bit to read if they still show no interest. Reading really isnt an optional choice.

Autonomous Education shows us children learn to read (often very very quickly and with little difficulty) when they see a purpose for it. Places like Summerhill school had a higher literacy rate, IIRC, than the average school despite academic work being totally optional. (Just been reading their Ofsted report and it's fab! If we were open to boarding, any kids of mine would go there!)



Liesje said:


> Call me a conspiracy theorist but I'm fairly certain (at least in Canada with all-day kindergarten starting at age 4), that they're just trying to create a new breed of sheeple.

The creators of the modern schooling system described this as one of their main goals in compulsory schooling - divide children from each other by age and grading, seperate them from their parents, and thereby make the masses safer as they are unlikely to unite again against their lords and masters. Teach conformity to authority, and acceptance of boredom, for the workers of the future. Socialise children to a common culture so the economy can predict and control these future consumers, bringing economic stability. John Taylor Gatto has a long article here about it here, and there's another good one here, but there's plenty out there if you google "Prussian compulsory schooling"


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## Palestrina

freckleonear said:


> A few pages back someone asked for information about learning to read later rather than earlier, but I couldn't find my links at the time. So sorry for jumping in a bit late!
> 
> Unfortunately I can't share the full article, but the abstract explains the basics.
> https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0885200612000397
> 
> There's also some really interesting articles here about the negative effects of our early school starting age and our formal curriculum. Early Childhood Action is proposing an Alternative Foundation Phase instead of the EYFS.
> 
> https://docs.google.com/open?id=1jkY9e95FncjN2lqTY-9Z4V_OiVI2vOqtJ9KKU2rQwFyVebSaW7BZfTcXCSAN
> 
> https://docs.google.com/open?id=1plVpslKZpRGk6C9q-jgLvfuFdhNivb5NnYEvFwXS8sgihjEHw1NP950pDI7C
> 
> https://docs.google.com/open?id=1agfp2heii3Y-LSoUHlmTj1dFof7ZakfHd2Z-cSVH4U6Pm0BKaW3LF4eZJitz
> 
> I know there are some brilliant teachers on here who are passionate about their jobs, but sadly schools vary hugely. Our local primary school (which I attended when I was little) is one of the best schools in the town, but they have structured play at lunchtime where the dinner ladies blow a whistle every 5 minutes and the children have to switch between activities. If they are good each group gets 5 minutes free play on the adventure playground. :cry:

Thanks for posting. It's great to read these things and get different view points. A lot goes into making a great kid. The one thing that everyone seems to agree on is that the early childhood years are crucial, children are like sponges and we know that they will pick up and learn anything we throw on them. The question is what and how to do that without jeopardizing their future.


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## Palestrina

The education system in America is overall horrible. There are plenty of good schools especially in rural areas but here in the inner-cities schools are a scary place. Rather than being a place to learn they now serve the purpose of shelter for many kids. In the schools I've taught the number of kids that qualify for the free meals is staggering. These kids enter the school about 30min before school starts to have a full breakfast. Then they stay after school in the "after school program" which is structured exactly like the regular school day and are not dismissed until 6pm. That means nearly 11 hrs spent at school, and all their meals eaten there. 

Furthermore, physical education, music and the arts are practically non-existent. At my school the children are lucky and receive 45min of phys ed PER WEEK, that's just once per week people! This is because we only have one little gym, and only one phys ed teacher that has to teach the whole school. Same goes for the art teacher and music teacher. There is hardly any outdoor play, the outdoor area is too small to house too many kids at once so not every student gets to be outside for play. 

I won't go into how dangerous some of the students' behavior is, or how poor their academic achievement is. So I know first hand that 11hrs of structured instruction is not indicative of how well a student will perform. Of course my experience is with older children, thus why I have not formed an opinion on what age is appropriate to start schooling.


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## Jchihuahua

Tacey said:


> I've never heard of structured play at lunch. That's horrendous!

This is pretty rare I think. I have never come across it in the schools I have worked in (which is a lot as in my last job I was in class 4 days a week but then one day a week I went to other schools to provide support to teachers that needed help). None of my teacher friends have ever mentioned anything like this either. Dreadful though!


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## Tacey

Jchihuahua said:


> Tacey said:
> 
> 
> I've never heard of structured play at lunch. That's horrendous!
> 
> This is pretty rare I think. I have never come across it in the schools I have worked in (which is a lot as in my last job I was in class 4 days a week but then one day a week I went to other schools to provide support to teachers that needed help). None of my teacher friends have ever mentioned anything like this either. Dreadful though!Click to expand...

No, I'm a teacher too (well, ex!) and haven't come across it. I can't imagine why they would want to start that. :shrug:


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