# Natural killer cells



## mandy1971

Hi ladies, I'm just dipping in here to highlight uterine natural killer cells...

A bit about myself ttc #1 for 5 years, I had an initial abyss of 9 months ttc and nothing happened...had a laparoscopy and started using opks...following month I fell pregnant, ended in miscarriage at 5 weeks .. Not sure how I managed to get pregnant, perhaps it was having the laparoscopy as one tube needed a bit of resistance to flush dye through or using opk.... Through the sticks I realised that I ovulate anywhere between cd14 to around 21!!
Since then I've had 5 early miscarriages and on ethical loss at 17 weeks(Down syndrome and extensive heart defect..)

Anyhow I'm here to bring to attention to uterine natural killer cells...
After 6 losses, 5 of which were naturally conceived... Had 2 lots of IUI and fell pregnant with my longest pregnancy( few weeks after starting medication for under active thyroid,specifically hashimotos an auto immune form of under active where body's immune system attacks the thyroid gland,incidentally it is one of the most common types.)

Had 2lots of ivf one of which no eggs were fertilized, however on first cycle I had 5 eggs fertilise and look like fantastic eggs,any one could have been transferred, however in view of the fact that I was 41 we paid extra to have the chromosomes checked and 2 of the 5 were chromosomally normal,both were transferred though none took, since this happened since July last year I have had one more miscarriage in August this year, it limped on to 7 weeks with assistance of steroids and progesterone pessaries...further than other 4 miscarriages..

I need more answers I already knew that the hashimotos could be a cause of early miscarriage, and was aware from extensive reading that abnormal uterine natural killer cells were also a cause of early miscarriage, both these conditions in as much as 50% of cases are linked....

So I had the uterine biopsy done recently and sure enough I now have a diagnosis of abnormal uterine natural killer cells.... So my treatment will continue to be steroids, with a few tweaks in medication...

I am well aware I may never fall pregnant again and forever live in hope...
The reason I am posting this on a lttc forum is that some of you may be thinking of going down the ivf route....and I suppose what I would like to get accross is that if you have an auto immune disease chances are it's highly likely you may have aggressive natural killer cells in your uterus also....
Many women who have never been pregnant go down the line of failed ivf attempts ( often at great monetary expense as well as emotional) and then look for other answers, often case is they can well find out through investigation that aggressive natural killer cells are to blame..
The biopsy cost me £360 only few places in England do this,I'm in Scotland and had to travel down...

I am sure lots of women already know about this, but I want to reach out and highlight my story and perhaps, alert someone to this possibility of why they may not be concieving...


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## mandy1971

https://haveababy.com/fertility-inf...ng-immunologic-implantation-dysfunction_16-2/

This is a link regarding auto immune diseases and natural killer cells...


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## 2have4kids

Thanks Mandy, although I've been diagnosed with diminished ovarian reserves I'm highly suspicious of autoimmune disorders as well. My mother miscarried 3 x and had 2 25 week+ still borns. I have really bad, early arthritis and just wonder if there isn't something else going on too. I don't know where in Canada that I can get tested but I've been told it's between $2000-10,000 which is out of my range.

What kind of steroids will you be taking and what dose? Thanks for your post!


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## mandy1971

Hi 2have., the steroids are prednisilone., they are a very cheap drug.. some women have intralipid therapy here.,but its only available in certain clinics..my consultant hasn't suggested it for me..

A friend from work told me of her friend who conceived at 50., who has rheumatoid and had been trying years earlier... Not sure if she had been taking steroids at the time but it would.seem likely....that child is now around 12!

Also my gran had rheumatoid arthritis for a long time and she fell pregnant with er 5th at 44....


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## 2have4kids

I'm really concerned about the dose though. My donor egg coordinator suggested 10 mg until 10-12 weeks. I've been told that if I did have autoimmune issues that 10mg wouldn't do anything, it needs to be a much higher dose. I've very worried I'll go into this in December and wind up m/c'ing again!


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## mandy1971

2 have you should speak with your consultant about your concerns..between 2000-10000 seems a bit extreme for natural killer cell testing is that for the biopsy.? It would be far cheaper to come to the UK and have Dr quenby do the biopsy at a cost of £360..... Would you consider postponing IVF till you had testing done? Otherwise you could plead your case with your consults.t to Hz e a higher dose steroid....


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## 2have4kids

I'm going to get a higher dose of Prednisone. Been thinking about it, have read the Dr Beers website, read the info that you gave as well as the statistical studies done on this website: https://sites.google.com/site/miscarriageresearch/supplements-and-miscarriage/prednisone

I think that would cover my basis. I'm booked infor Dec 2-11 treatment dates and that gives very little time for appointments before then. I'll cross all of my fingers and toes that 20mg works to help me get and stay pregnant.


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## popchick75

I actually tested positive for NK cells also. After 10 years of fertility tests and treatments that is the only thing they ever found. I ended up doing a IUI/steroid/intralipid/follistim cycle a few months back but it didn't work :-/

If you are having an issue carrying a baby to term, you may also want to look into DQ Alpha testing. NK cells can exist on their own, but sometimes they are triggered by two people having a DQ Alpha genetic match. If that is the case, IVF and intralipids are the only way to go.


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## mandy1971

2 have, your armed with a plan then... I hope all goes well in December and that you get a wonderful Xmas present this year, please keep in touch and let me know how it goes..

Hi pop, I tried tried steroids last pregnancy in August and with ivf last July.... Started them at Bfp and ovulation respectively.....though no luck with the ivf, the pregnancy this August limped on a further 2 weeks than my previous 4 miscarriages.. Just plugging away at it each month, hoping that it will work soon... At what point did you take steroids with your IUI cycle... .?


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## popchick75

mandy1971 said:


> 2 have, your armed with a plan then... I hope all goes well in December and that you get a wonderful Xmas present this year, please keep in touch and let me know how it goes..
> 
> Hi pop, I tried tried steroids last pregnancy in August and with ivf last July.... Started them at Bfp and ovulation respectively.....though no luck with the ivf, the pregnancy this August limped on a further 2 weeks than my previous 4 miscarriages.. Just plugging away at it each month, hoping that it will work soon... At what point did you take steroids with your IUI cycle... .?

They started me about 2 days after ovulation. The NK cells also cause implantation dysfunction, not just early miscarriage so they wanted to get the steroids in my system well before any embryo would try to implant. I've seen a few ladies on here take them for the entire cycle.


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## 2have4kids

many I'm so sorry to hear about your IVF in August & m/c. It's got to be really devistating. Keep your chin up and keep trying. YOu will get a sticky bean! What was your dose in August and when did you start the prednisone?

Popchick what was your dose? I'm SOOO looking forward to December!! My issue is that I just don't have eggs left and with IVF they just don't grow. They gave me the highest dose of gonal F and in 7 days nothing happened. I'm going to put 2 good embies back in Czech in Dec and if they aren't top quality we'll put 3 back.


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## popchick75

2have4kids said:


> many I'm so sorry to hear about your IVF in August & m/c. It's got to be really devistating. Keep your chin up and keep trying. YOu will get a sticky bean! What was your dose in August and when did you start the prednisone?
> 
> Popchick what was your dose? I'm SOOO looking forward to December!! My issue is that I just don't have eggs left and with IVF they just don't grow. They gave me the highest dose of gonal F and in 7 days nothing happened. I'm going to put 2 good embies back in Czech in Dec and if they aren't top quality we'll put 3 back.


Hmmm....I'm going to have to find the bottle and look that up. It was a lower dose than women usually get, but that was because i was taking it in addition to the IV intralipids. They didn't want to completely compromise my immune system. :)


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## mandy1971

2have... Thanks for your kind words... Today has actually been a pretty down day for me... Running things around in my head.. Feeling that I will never get their... Friends have pictures of their little ones all dressed up for Halloween.... Certain times of the year it's hard going.. So your kind words have lifted me and also, I did have a little blub.... I am usually very matter of fact and philosophical..

In August I was on 20 mg prednisilone from Bfp as well as clexane 40 mg asprin 75mg and cyclogest pessaries200mg twice daily...for ivf last summer it was 20mg prednisilone from day of egg collection other drugs were same as August..

This month I took 10 mg pred for 2-3 dpo then just bumped it up to 20mg from day 4, I've omitted the asprin this time as advised by my consultant .... Probably not due my period till next Monday at the earliest and I really am driving myself mad this week peeing on sticks..... I just can't help myself sadly, I'm a lost cause lol .


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## 2have4kids

Mandy, Keep your chin up and keep moving forward :hugs: Have you tried intralipid iv at all? THis is supposed to help too. At least you know what your problem is and can get pregnant. It's just terrible that you have struggled so much. Have you tried a naturopath in order to also see which foods make you have inflammatory response? I did a test with ~300 different foods and was really shocked at which ones my body puts up a defense to. Eggs, oats, wheat, and nightshade vegetables (cauliflower, broccoli etc). I've been eating badly this past week and have had wicked bad arthritis in my knees and have bloodshot eyes everyday. Bloodshot eyes is a classic sign of massive inflammation in your body. I'm mostly a meat and vegetable girl now which as helped me feel SO much better and lose a ton of weight. Inflammation is a killer too when it comes to ttc. I find a plan and more information always helps me feel more confident going into the next try. :flower:


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## mandy1971

No I've not done intralipids yet.,tbh I think if I was to have them I would need IVF.as I think it all needs to be planned quite well timing wise, my amh was around 3 ish in spring 2012, so I am sure it will have dropped even further now.. just going to try naturally untill the early new year and might come up with another plan then..
I've never had any type of allergy testing done... Might look into it....


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## Briss

ladies, there is an interesting webinar here on NK Cells and autoimmune issues

https://ttcaftertr.blogspot.de/p/immune-system-infertility-info.html

I had a chemical following our first IVF and am trying to look for answers. I think most likely it was due to poor sperm quality and chromosomal issues but there is a small chance it's autoimmune issues. I had hysteroscopy last year with biopsy of the lining but they did not mention whether or not there were any NK Cells. is there a blood test that you can take to find that out?


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## 2have4kids

Hi Briss, here's a website that outlines all of the tests you can have done. One of my coordinators for Reprofit clinic has been through a number of different labs that do the testing. She recommends one in the states over all of the others because they give you very detailed information (she could probably tell you what you need to ensure to get from the lab if you do the test anyway). It may be worth speaking to her as she's spent $12,000 figuring out her own issues. She at least can arm you with information if you take that route. I know they're quite expensive but I'm sure they're with it!
https://www.repro-med.net/repro-med-site2/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=34:an-introduction-our-program&catid=9:home&Itemid=11


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## Briss

2have4kids, thank you very much. I will start looking into this.


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## popchick75

mandy1971 said:


> No I've not done intralipids yet.,tbh I think if I was to have them I would need IVF.as I think it all needs to be planned quite well timing wise, my amh was around 3 ish in spring 2012, so I am sure it will have dropped even further now.. just going to try naturally untill the early new year and might come up with another plan then..
> I've never had any type of allergy testing done... Might look into it....

I had mine done with a follistim/IUI cycle. They can do them with just stims and no IUI, or just with a natural cycle.


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## 2have4kids

The Czech clinic doctor got back to me. They want me on 5mg prednisone before transfer and 10 after. I guess that is enough in their eyes. I hope so, really need a sticky bean! We did the wire transfer of full pmt today and saturday down reg lupron shot. Wish me luck ladies, Dec 7/9 here we come!


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## popchick75

2have4kids said:


> The Czech clinic doctor got back to me. They want me on 5mg prednisone before transfer and 10 after. I guess that is enough in their eyes. I hope so, really need a sticky bean! We did the wire transfer of full pmt today and saturday down reg lupron shot. Wish me luck ladies, Dec 7/9 here we come!

Good luck!!!


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## Briss

2have4kids, best of luck!!


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## mandy1971

Best if luck to 2have..

Girls I am pregnant.. 4+5 ish..!

I've resurrected an old thread where the women have all now had their babies through prednisilone one girl also had intralipids..the link is below 

https://babyandbump.momtastic.com/t...ies-perfectly-unscientific-medical-trial.html


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## 2have4kids

Mandy, congrats!! Let this be a sticky bean. Was it a natural bfp then?
Thanks for the thread too!


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## mandy1971

Morning honey you are up early.! I've been awake since 3.30am..... 40 mg of prednisilone is to blame,thankfully it's a day off today...

Yes this is a natural pregnancy, after the miscarriage in August and the uterine biopsy in late September I took advantage of the fact that both increase fertility chances..... I am shocked.....
I am worried of course about chromosome issues, as at my age of 42 it can be a huge gamble.... But hey people my age do have healthy children, so I am remaining positive...


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## Briss

mandy, congratulations!! H&H 9 months!

Can I ask how did you know you have NK cells? was it blood test or did you have to have uterine biopsy?


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## mandy1971

Briss I had the biopsy done by dr quenby at coventry hospital.. It's done privately at the cost of £360, that includes her consultation and a follow up call after the results are available from the biopsy.... I am glad I had it done, I wasn't worried about wasting the money as it was something I would have gladly paid to rule it out... Unfortunately I have raised levels.. Are you thinking of having testing done..?


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## Briss

I had hysteroscopy with biopsy 1.5 years ago it came as normal but I do not know if they were looking at NK cells. I really do not want to have another one done. Is it possible to just do a blood test to find that out? My thyroid and antibody bloods came normal, does it help at all?


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## mandy1971

I know dr shehata at "the miscarriage clinic "in London looks at blood levels, I believe you can be referred as an NHS patient through your gp... Have a google, the staff will speak to you over the phone....alternatively you can pay him privately.... I think however it is more accurate via the biopsy... I would doubt the biopsy you had before was looking at natural killer cells as far as I know there are only 2 places in the uk that do it honey...but chase your gp up about it anyway xxx


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## 2have4kids

mandy1971 said:


> Morning honey you are up early.! I've been awake since 3.30am..... 40 mg of prednisilone is to blame,thankfully it's a day off today...
> 
> Yes this is a natural pregnancy, after the miscarriage in August and the uterine biopsy in late September I took advantage of the fact that both increase fertility chances..... I am shocked.....
> I am worried of course about chromosome issues, as at my age of 42 it can be a huge gamble.... But hey people my age do have healthy children, so I am remaining positive...

It was 11 at night over here (Canada). You've been through enough, it's Santa's perfect angel gift to you. No more m/c this one will work!! Yes women can still have babies at 42, just get the non-invasive downs test if your nuchal translucency test comes out with any questions. My gf is in week 38, 42 years old with a boy in her belly. They had to go this route and everything turned out fine. It's your turn Mandy!!:hugs:


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## mandy1971

Oh bless you 2 have, thanks.... And right back at you with the baby gift for Xmas.... You deserve it just as much xxx


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## dovkav123

I am interested in NK cells. 
my 3 perfect embryos didn't implant.


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## 2have4kids

dovkav123 said:


> I am interested in NK cells.
> my 3 perfect embryos didn't implant.

OMG I'm so sorry! I think over in Europe you have much more access to information, testing and treatment. In Canada I've contacted a doctor in Toronto who basically said Canadians need to travel out of country for testing and treatment. 
I can only imagine how devistated you are with 3 not implating. Were you on anything with your treatment?


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