# Woah, some scary things I just read about disposable nappies.....



## flubdub

Im just reading my posh knew "Natural Mother" book :smug: and have got onto the nappy section.

The author has written;

"The bleach thats used on the outer and inner material of disposables is thought to produce a chemical called Dioxin which is a known carcinogen. Solvents and other chemicals that are used to make them super absorbant have also been associated with health risks. There were concerns in the 1980;s over similar chemicals used in tampons and linked with the development of 'toxic shock syndrome'."

This is the bit that scared me;

"In baby boys, a great wad of paper and stuffing also increases the temperature around the testicles. The male reproductive system develops during the first two years of life, and its widely known that high scrotal temperature can be a factor in low sperm count."

"A study by the Women's Environmental Network about seven years ago included a chemical analysis of five types of newborn nappies. Each contained small amounts of tributylin, a type of chemical that can disrupt immune cells. Their study showed that babies, with their underdeveloped immune systems, could be exposed on a daily basis to *3.6 times* the WHO's estimated tolerable level.
The real truth is that we dont know howthe effects of disposable nappies on the skin, or how any traces of these chemicals affect our babies if they travel internally. Its certainly unlikely that the substances are helping in the fight against eczema, allerergies, infertility or even cancer."


:) Pretty scary stuff. I didnt know ANY of this!


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## c.m.c

i swear i believe every word of this!!!!!! disposables are not natural!!!!! my husband and i are very into trying to be organic and eco friendly- not for the environment completely- more because anything that is against nature cannot be good for you!!! look at BSE for example- any wonder cows got that when we were feeding animals to animals!!!!!!


most babies in the 80's wore terry nappies- it would be amazing to see how many men are affected by low sperm count eczema etc in 20 years time and compare it to boys born in the 70's and 80's who wore 'real' nappies


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## Hayley90

Those are the reasons i use cloth, more so than money saving or being pretty- i was worried about his little baby balls :lol:


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## kawaiigirl

OMG scary!! Doesn't surprise me really!


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## birdiex

Scary! What book is this? I might have to give it a read.


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## flubdub

birdiex said:


> Scary! What book is this? I might have to give it a read.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Imperfectl...5898/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1304095587&sr=8-1

She also does one (titled the same) but about being a Mother (but I cant find it anywhere) and a 'Woman' one too. Mine was only £2.80 with free P&P :thumbup:
I made a thread about it last in here :)


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## birdiex

flubdub said:


> birdiex said:
> 
> 
> Scary! What book is this? I might have to give it a read.
> 
> https://www.amazon.co.uk/Imperfectl...5898/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1304095587&sr=8-1
> 
> She also does one (titled the same) but about being a Mother (but I cant find it anywhere) and a 'Woman' one too. Mine was only £2.80 with free P&P :thumbup:
> I made a thread about it last in here :)Click to expand...

Thankyou! :thumbup:


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## mommy43

i knew most of that but only AFTER i changed to cloth i used terrys for my older kids mainly to save money


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## NuKe

:shock:


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## Hayley90

I was reading another website which had printed each fact one by one, and made passing comments on it, and it suggested that the sperm count thing could *possibly* be linked to the growing number of men with fertility problems.... it grows every year, and has grown massively due to "environmental factors" - one of which, being the everyday use of disposables, which werent around 50+ years ago, when infertility rates were lower. 

I work in an IVF clinic, and i do not want my babies to feel like some of the people i see everyday...its heartbreaking. and if using cloth can change a TINY percentage chance of that, then so be it! :) x


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## Farie

TBH the heating of baby boys balls isn't really an issue for long term fertility as sperm are permanently produced rather than just 'there' from birth as eggs are in girls. Male sperm issues are related directly to the daily environmental factors of the man in question. (yeah, I do know sh*tloads about this as we struggled for 3yrs to conceive LO, both DH and I have infertility issues)

As for the chemicals, they aren't great, but most of the research is a little outdated for todays 'sposies. Also there are plenty of great eco 'sposies


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## NuKe

hmmmmm


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## Surreal

Farie said:


> TBH the heating of baby boys balls isn't really an issue for long term fertility as sperm are permanently produced rather than just 'there' from birth as eggs are in girls. Male sperm issues are related directly to the daily environmental factors of the man in question.


Good to know; got a little worried there, as I use a PUL cover with inserts, and I've heard the heat difference between a PUL and a disposable isn't much. :(


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## Tegans Mama

Surreal said:


> Farie said:
> 
> 
> TBH the heating of baby boys balls isn't really an issue for long term fertility as sperm are permanently produced rather than just 'there' from birth as eggs are in girls. Male sperm issues are related directly to the daily environmental factors of the man in question.
> 
> 
> Good to know; got a little worried there, as I use a PUL cover with inserts, and I've heard the heat difference between a PUL and a disposable isn't much. :(Click to expand...

It's a whole degree. That's quite a lot!


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## Kaites

Tegans Mama said:


> Surreal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Farie said:
> 
> 
> TBH the heating of baby boys balls isn't really an issue for long term fertility as sperm are permanently produced rather than just 'there' from birth as eggs are in girls. Male sperm issues are related directly to the daily environmental factors of the man in question.
> 
> 
> Good to know; got a little worried there, as I use a PUL cover with inserts, and I've heard the heat difference between a PUL and a disposable isn't much. :(Click to expand...
> 
> It's a whole degree. That's quite a lot!Click to expand...

There have been a few ppl quoting the one degree with PUL, 2 degrees with wool figures but I've never seen anyone actually point to where they are getting this info from. I did a quick search on pubmed to see if there was any actual peer reviewed research on it (sorry, the biologist in me coming out again), and came across this acticle about scrotal heat differences with cloth and 'sposies. In their research, they didn't find any differences. 

Don't get me wrong, I do believe that cloth diapers can be better for babies than 'sposies, but I also like to see facts backed up by peer-reviewed research :flower:


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## NuKe

i did a quick search and found the following:


Disposable diapers might be responsible for a sharp rise in male infertility over the past 25 years. This was discovered after a recent study at the University of Kiel in Germany.
Researchers used a small thermal probe to test the scrotal temperature of 48 boys wearing disposable diapers during waking and sleeping hours. Temperatures were consistently one degree higher than normal body temperature when disposable diapers were worn. They concluded that the insulation properties of the disposables impaired the normal cooling mechanisms of the testicles, and found that in 13 subjects, the cooling mechanism had failed altogether. 

Medical Post, October 10, 2000 
(granted, it's ten years old, but still!)

and

SCIENTISTS LINK MALE INFERTILITY AND TESTICULAR CANCER TO DISPOSABLE DIAPERS 
Disposable diapers raise the temperature of baby boys' reproductive organs, affecting their development, according to a scientific study done at the University of Kiel, reported in the British medical journal "Archives of Disease in Childhood". 
The scientists who did the study had noticed that baby boys with a fever had very high scrotal temperatures if they were diapered in disposable diapers, and this led them to investigate whether baby boys with a normal body temperature, would also have a higher scrotal temperature. They studied a group of 48 boys, within a year's period, except for the hot months of July and August. They compared the boys' scrotal temperatures when they were in disposable diapers to the temperatures of the same boys when they were diapered in cotton diapers. 
They state "exposure to increased temperature for prolonged duration during childhood as a result of the use of modern disposable plastic lined nappies [diapers] could be an important factor in the decline in semen quality and the increasing incidence of testicular cancer in adult age." They say that the physiological testicular cooling mechanism is significantly impaired during plastic nappy [diaper] use, (in 27% of the babies tested, the cooling mechanism was completely destroyed). This may have a negative long term effect on testicular maturation and spermatogenesis, and may facilitate the development of testicular cancer. And, because babies diapered in disposables often have a prolonged diapering period (especially now that there are plastic training pants and plastic bedwetting pants), the scientists state that the problem may be becoming more severe.

Dr. Simon Fishel, director of the Centre for Assisted Reproduction (Nottingham, England) said "The theory is quite sensible and I am not totally surprised by it. If by wearing a disposable nappy you raise the scrotal temperature of a baby boy then that is something to be concerned about."


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## Kaites

I found the article from 2000 that your information is referring to also but the one that I found was from 2002- a bit more recent. Both used slightly different methods, with slightly different results (obviously, I thought the methods used in the 2002 article were a bit better to have posted that link ;)). I think it's fair to say that just as cloth diapers have evolved over the past 11 years, so have disposable diapers and it's quite possible that neither study are truly applicable to today's diapering landscape.

I have no problem with people choosing to cloth diaper because they are making the choice to avoid potential problems, even if those issues haven't been proven by research yet. The problem I have with a lot of the information out there is that it's just people quoting other people's opinions on websites without referring to any kind of solid research. The whole 1 degree cooler thing being quoted on BnB started after a member who is in the cloth diapering business started mentioning it in posts and now it's got members quoting it like it's gospel.


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## Rachel_C

I would be interested to hear if anybody finds any actual research, it's always good to read. However I think it's fairly easy to conduct your own 'research' if you want - try a disposable sanitary towel and then try CSP. I certainly noticed a big difference, temperature wise. I'd imagine it's pretty much the same as nappies.


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## NuKe

Kaites said:


> I found the article from 2000 that your information is referring to also but the one that I found was from 2002- a bit more recent. Both used slightly different methods, with slightly different results (obviously, I thought the methods used in the 2002 article were a bit better to have posted that link ;)). I think it's fair to say that just as cloth diapers have evolved over the past 11 years, so have disposable diapers and it's quite possible that neither study are truly applicable to today's diapering landscape.
> 
> I have no problem with people choosing to cloth diaper because they are making the choice to avoid potential problems, even if those issues haven't been proven by research yet. The problem I have with a lot of the information out there is that it's just people quoting other people's opinions on websites without referring to any kind of solid research. The whole 1 degree cooler thing being quoted on BnB started after a member who is in the cloth diapering business started mentioning it in posts and now it's got members quoting it like it's gospel.

totally fair enough! :D tbh i am fairly new to cloth nappies and hadnt heard fo the 1 degree thing until this thread! 

and i agree with rachel, wen i use sanitary towels (in emergencies) i actually get all sweaty and gross down there :sick:


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## lozzy21

What i dont get is how they can say that using sposies on boys has increased their fertility as when i was a baby every one used terry nappies. I dont understand what control group they are using on, im only 23. I think the average age for fertility treatment is 26 so all of them would have used terry nappies as babys?

Im i just being thick?


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## Farie

Lozzy, your not being thick, the link between infertility and 'sposies is tenuous to say the least. 
And since I was cloth bummed and so was DH but we both have issues - he has had awful morphology and cancer. As you say, in many cases the cloth bummed generation have equally bad fertility and rising infertility is more linked to other environmental factors.

And as I said, male sperm is created all the time, so the fact a boys bollocks *might* have been a degree warmer as a 6 month old really doesn't have much standing! Also I cannot find a single full study where modern (PLU backed etc) cloth was tested *alongside *'sposies. Nappy wearing will always cause heating - if I wrapped fleece, bamboo and microfibre round anyones bum it would heat up :lol:

The arguments regarding the chemicals does stand up to investigation, as much as to say it did regarding the nappies that were tested 10yrs ago, but since then the chemical compound used have been significantly altered.

Anyway, I'm not trying to start a debate, simply passing on information I have been given and gathered and since we suffered from infertility and saw numerous specialists I have a fair bit of information and knowledge in the area!

(I also use cloth and 'sposies - so you could say im on the fence!)


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## SackBoy

Farie said:


> Lozzy, your not being thick, the link between infertility and 'sposies is tenuous to say the least.
> And since I was cloth bummed and so was DH but we both have issues - he has had awful morphology and cancer. As you say, in many cases the cloth bummed generation have equally bad fertility and rising infertility is more linked to other environmental factors.
> 
> And as I said, male sperm is created all the time, so the fact a boys bollocks *might* have been a degree warmer as a 6 month old really doesn't have much standing! Also I cannot find a single full study where modern (PLU backed etc) cloth was tested *alongside *'sposies. Nappy wearing will always cause heating - if I wrapped fleece, bamboo and microfibre round anyones bum it would heat up :lol:

Just because you and your husband suffered from infertility doesn't prove that disposables aren't linked with Male infertility. That would be like me saying I can prove smoking isn't linked with lung cancer as my aunt who had never smoked and stayed away from smokers got lung cancer. The fact is in some ways it's too early the generation that is suffering the most with infertility is also the generation who has put off reproduction the latest.

Also as you correctly say boys create their sperm all the but you incorrectly deduce that means what happens to them at an early age won't affect sperm production. I think you will find boys don't produce sperm until later closer to their teens years but the body is learning and building therefore the body doesn't learn how to efficently cool down the testes. 

However I agree that it's is just a theory at present until someone studies it further.


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## Farie

Deleted 'cos I cant be ar**ed to get into a debate.


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## Rachel_C

I'm 26 and my mum used disposables, I think they have been around for longer than the mid 80s. I seem to remember seeing tv adverts for disposables from the 60s or 70s on YouTube but I may be wrong!


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## NuKe

Rachel_C said:


> I'm 26 and my mum used disposables, I think they have been around for longer than the mid 80s. I seem to remember seeing tv adverts for disposables from the 60s or 70s on YouTube but I may be wrong!

it may depend on the area?? Might be a stupid thing to say but my mum remembers sposies coming out here around the time when I was born.


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## lozzy21

Sposies where around but they were realy expensive so hardly any one used them.

Funny how its the other way round now


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## Hayley90

lozzy21 said:


> Sposies where around but they were realy expensive so hardly any one used them.
> 
> Funny how its the other way round now

Yeah that's what i thought too. I think it will eventually switch back over though! x


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## summer rain

I'd love to use cloth but with 4 kids, no tumble drier, living in an extremely hard water area meaning whichever water softener you use (calgon etc) things take 24 hours longer on average to dry than they would in a soft water area, and the housing assoc not allowing drying on our balcony, its just not possible. Many of these articles on the dangers of disposables are outdated; up to a few years back most disposables had an actual plastic layer like a plastic bag on; but they don't now.


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## Kaites

I'm 34 and my mum used disposables on me once she returned to work so they've been around here for a while too.


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## Rachel_C

summer rain said:


> I'd love to use cloth but with 4 kids, no tumble drier, *living in an extremely hard water area meaning whichever water softener you use (calgon etc) things take 24 hours longer on average to dry than they would in a soft water area*, and the housing assoc not allowing drying on our balcony, its just not possible. Many of these articles on the dangers of disposables are outdated; up to a few years back most disposables had an actual plastic layer like a plastic bag on; but they don't now.

Is that true? I've never heard that. Do you know why it is? I noticed that LO's nappies dried more quickly when I did a wash yesterday at my mum's. She has soft water but where I live it is a lot harder. I thought it was just one of those things.


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## modo

Almost 32 and my Mom used cloth diapers on me and my siblings. We lived in the middle east. My MIL tried cloth with her eldest, gave up and used sposies with the rest of her kids (he grew up in England).


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## princessellie

yep sposies are cack cack cack, full of chemicals, sometimes i think to myself, ah what the hell am i doing, a baby and a toddler and im trying to be all save the world and using cloth nappies, then i think about disposables and how cack they are lol and i change my mind again, im quite proud of the fact that ive never put a disposable nappy on mimie, even when we flew half way across the world i kept on using cloth, leyla had sposies for the first 6 months ish and then about 7months ago now she caught a massive rash, think it was thrush or something cos it wouldnt go at all and the only thing that would fix it was sposies, strangely enough, so shes had her fair share but mimies only had one on ever and that was the one the nurse put on her when she was first born, even then i was saying nooo i dont want her in one and me mam told me off cos she was only trying to help haha x


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## Janidog

We use cloth in the day time and disposables at night and no amount of created research will change my mind on using them


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## Kaites

Rachel_C said:


> summer rain said:
> 
> 
> I'd love to use cloth but with 4 kids, no tumble drier, *living in an extremely hard water area meaning whichever water softener you use (calgon etc) things take 24 hours longer on average to dry than they would in a soft water area*, and the housing assoc not allowing drying on our balcony, its just not possible. Many of these articles on the dangers of disposables are outdated; up to a few years back most disposables had an actual plastic layer like a plastic bag on; but they don't now.
> 
> Is that true? I've never heard that. Do you know why it is? I noticed that LO's nappies dried more quickly when I did a wash yesterday at my mum's. She has soft water but where I live it is a lot harder. I thought it was just one of those things.Click to expand...

It's the higher mineral content, a.k.a. dissolved "salts" that make the water evaporate slower with hard water. If you've ever swam in the sea and then left your bathing suit to dry without rinsing it, you'll notice that it takes longer to dry than if you had rinsed it with fresh water first. Same thing happens with laundry washed in hard vs soft water- just to a lesser degree :)


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## flubdub

Im 25 and my mum used terries with me, but I suspect that it was because of cost rather than anything else, so disposables may very well have been in the shops back then, but i bet they were really expensive :wacko:


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## c.m.c

flubdub said:


> Im 25 and my mum used terries with me, but I suspect that it was because of cost rather than anything else, so disposables may very well have been in the shops back then, but i bet they were really expensive :wacko:

my mum said disposables were about years ago - im 27- but she said they were sooo expensive you would only ever use one if you were going away far for the day or never use them as everyone used the terrys- she said therre were blue red and black label terry's- black being the thickest, best and most expensive- god love her she said all hers were red label- she couldnt afford black and my MIL said noone could really afford the black label and you thought you were brill with red label--- so funny hearing their stories- wish dispoables were the expensive choice now!!!!


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## discoclare

c.m.c said:


> flubdub said:
> 
> 
> Im 25 and my mum used terries with me, but I suspect that it was because of cost rather than anything else, so disposables may very well have been in the shops back then, but i bet they were really expensive :wacko:
> 
> my mum said *disposables were about years ago - im 27*- but she said they were sooo expensive you would only ever use one if you were going away far for the day or never use them as everyone used the terrys- she said therre were blue red and black label terry's- black being the thickest, best and most expensive- god love her she said all hers were red label- she couldnt afford black and my MIL said noone could really afford the black label and you thought you were brill with red label--- so funny hearing their stories- wish dispoables were the expensive choice now!!!!Click to expand...

They definitely were. I am 35 and was cloth bummed. People in the UK hadn't really heard of sposies then. When I was 8 my mum started childminding (in about 1983, so 28 years ago). Her first child was a baby about 6 months old and we only ever had sposies in the house then. That baby was in sposies at her home and at our house. I'm not sure if the mum provided the sposies or my mum included in her charges. Anyhows my mum thought the new fangled sposies were great and only ever used sposies from '83 on. 
MIL said she didn't know anything about sposies when she had her first in 1975 but knew of them by the time my OH came along in 1980 (but she still used Terrys as sposies were too expensive for most people). MIL loves Ari's cloth!


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## c.m.c

discoclare said:


> c.m.c said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> flubdub said:
> 
> 
> Im 25 and my mum used terries with me, but I suspect that it was because of cost rather than anything else, so disposables may very well have been in the shops back then, but i bet they were really expensive :wacko:
> 
> my mum said *disposables were about years ago - im 27*- but she said they were sooo expensive you would only ever use one if you were going away far for the day or never use them as everyone used the terrys- she said therre were blue red and black label terry's- black being the thickest, best and most expensive- god love her she said all hers were red label- she couldnt afford black and my MIL said noone could really afford the black label and you thought you were brill with red label--- so funny hearing their stories- wish dispoables were the expensive choice now!!!!Click to expand...
> 
> They definitely were. I am 35 and was cloth bummed. People in the UK hadn't really heard of sposies then. When I was 8 my mum started childminding (in about 1983, so 28 years ago). Her first child was a baby about 6 months old and we only ever had sposies in the house then. That baby was in sposies at her home and at our house. I'm not sure if the mum provided the sposies or my mum included in her charges. Anyhows my mum thought the new fangled sposies were great and only ever used sposies from '83 on.
> MIL said she didn't know anything about sposies when she had her first in 1975 but knew of them by the time my OH came along in 1980 (but she still used Terrys as sposies were too expensive for most people). MIL loves Ari's cloth!Click to expand...

i was a 1983 baby too- baby brain im 28 this month!!!!:wacko: think i was at a childminder from3-6months before my mum quit work and they had some babies with sposies but i was always in cloth as each mum had to bring their own- wonder how easy it is now to ask a nursery to use your cloth nappy?


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## Eala

c.m.c said:


> i was a 1983 baby too- baby brain im 28 this month!!!!:wacko: think i was at a childminder from3-6months before my mum quit work and they had some babies with sposies but i was always in cloth as each mum had to bring their own- wonder how easy it is now to ask a nursery to use your cloth nappy?


Wasn't the slightest hassle for our nursery, or any of the other nurseries I viewed :thumbup: My childminder also used cloth nappies without any hassle. My nod to convenience for them is using flushable liners. At Roo's nursery she is the only one in cloth at the moment, but they've had kids before who were in fitteds + wraps. They keep commenting how much easier AIOs are :rofl:

I wonder if things were different up here with regards to sposies 30-ish years ago? Because my Mum used terries with my older brother (6 years age gap), but when I came along I was in Pampers because she hated terries so much! Those were the days of rubber and harsh plastic outer pants, as she remembers it, and she couldn't stand them! She doesn't mind my modern ones, but when my parents look after Roo, I do tend to get her back in an eco-sposie :rofl:


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## discoclare

c.m.c said:


> i was a 1983 baby too- baby brain im 28 this month!!!!:wacko: think i was at a childminder from3-6months before my mum quit work and they had some babies with sposies but i was always in cloth as each mum had to bring their own- wonder how easy it is now to ask a nursery to use your cloth nappy?

My nursery were a bit resistant at first. Arianna is their first baby in cloth! But they seem to be getting on great now. I take BG aplix AIOs for them (the old style AIOs with a pocket not the organics), I add a LL bamboo booster to the pocket and I put a paper liner on top. In the morning I put her clean nappies in her basket at the changing station and hang the wet bag on the peg. At the end of the day I pick up the wet bag with her! The nursery provide Pampers and make an extra charge per month (which we don't pay obviously).


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## Janidog

My nursery are happy to use cloth :thumbup:

My mum was talking about Terry towels and disposables - my brother is 34 and my mum used terry towels on him and she said they were awful, just so big and cumbersome, my sister and i are 32 and were put in to pampers straight away.

Even though AIO are so easy to use my mum would still prefer disposables and think cloth are a pain in the bum (excuse the pun :haha:)


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## flubdub

I bet disposables wernt very good in the seventies
And eighties anyway. They probably didn't last anywhere near 12 hours like the ones now.


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## c.m.c

flubdub said:


> I bet disposables wernt very good in the seventies
> And eighties anyway. They probably didn't last anywhere near 12 hours like the ones now.

my mother in law said she went through about 10-12 a day!!!!! and she folded soooo many on top of each other for night!!!! poor babies prob couldnt move!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## flubdub

c.m.c said:


> flubdub said:
> 
> 
> I bet disposables wernt very good in the seventies
> And eighties anyway. They probably didn't last anywhere near 12 hours like the ones now.
> 
> my mother in law said she went through about 10-12 a day!!!!! and she folded soooo many on top of each other for night!!!! poor babies prob couldnt move!!!!!!!!!!!!!Click to expand...

Woah!! They probably wernt worth the money then.


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## c.m.c

flubdub said:


> c.m.c said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> flubdub said:
> 
> 
> I bet disposables wernt very good in the seventies
> And eighties anyway. They probably didn't last anywhere near 12 hours like the ones now.
> 
> my mother in law said she went through about 10-12 a day!!!!! and she folded soooo many on top of each other for night!!!! poor babies prob couldnt move!!!!!!!!!!!!!Click to expand...
> 
> Woah!! They probably wernt worth the money then.Click to expand...

flubdub do u have any advice for me- i posted a thread yesterday called- whats your favourite nappy and why? i have just discovered Ava can wee for ireland----- was wondering what works for your LO????


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## Eala

Issy Bear Minkys worked very well for my heavy wetter, and they are BTP :) 

I remember when I was small, you had different nappies for boys and girls, because they were absorbant in different bits! ;) I thought that's how things were when I first looked at sposies for my LO :rofl:


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## mandarhino

I'm 35 and was cloth bummed. My mum used terries and a nappy washing service. 

My youngest brother (born 1981) was in disposables. We moved overseas when he was 9 months old to a place that didn't have disposables. My parents bought boxes and boxes and boxes of nappies that were shipped over. There's a picture of him leaning on a box of nappies next to about 20 other mega boxes stacked to the ceiling and full of multi-packs of disposables. Very sobering picture when you look at it.


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