# Rant - Feeling so hopeless about sleep!



## Noelle610

Ladies, I just need to vent. I'm feeling so hopeless about my LO's sleep. I don't know what to do anymore. 

She woke hourly until she was about 10 weeks old. She was a reflux baby and just not a great sleeper all around. DH and I used to sleep in shirts when we were both on leave.

Things got better around 12 weeks and she started sleeping in 7-9 hour stretches. Then 4 month regression hit and that fell apart. Even so, we had some tough nights but she generally would still do a nice long stretch at the beginning of the night of 5/6 hours. Every mom I know assured me it would pass.

We're at 5.5 months now and had wake-ups down to 1-3 times a night. Not perfect, but bearable. Friday night she was up 3 times, but for an entire hour in the middle of the night. Last night it was Every. Single. Hour. On the dot. These nights seem to be increasing recently. 

I'm so confused. She goes to bed early, drowsy but awake and seems to know how to self-soothe. She takes good naps. Usually 3 a day of 45 minutes to 1.5 hours. We make sure she gets play/stimulation during the day. She eats extremely well during the day (five 6 or 7 ounce bottles) and we've started solids. I've read every book I can get my hands on. I've even talked to a "sleep coach". Nothing seems to help or make a difference. I tried some CC a few weeks ago and it worked for a few days, but things seemed to get worse after that so I stopped and assumed she wasn't ready. 

I guess I'm not really looking for advice, just venting. I feel so totally hopeless right now. Every day I'm so tired I feel ill. I feel like I am losing it and don't feel like I have the energy to be a good mother. LO and I had so much fun yesterday! We went swimming, had a nice long walk around the park and played in her new highchair. She was smiling all day long. Naps were good. I thought for sure she would sleep well, but it was a terrible night. 

I work a 55 hour work week and my performance is slipping. My relationship with DH is suffering because we argue about this (he wants to get more aggressive about sleep training). I cry at the drop of a hat. I really didn't think I would be in this position at 5.5 months. With a newborn, okay, sure... I'm not even looking for sleep through the night. Just some consistency and a few good blocks of sleep! I know this will pass eventually, but right now I feel there's no light at the end of the tunnel. Just working on surviving, I guess. 

Thanks for listening!


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## aliss

So sorry... but I remember 6 months was another doozy :( It did pass.


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## Noelle610

aliss said:


> So sorry... but I remember 6 months was another doozy :( It did pass.

Thanks Aliss. I know you understand. Hope you and the little one are doing well!

This "sleep coach" did say 4-5 months was basically one big "Wonder Week". I just hate to have expectations that things will improve if they won't. Better to be realistic.


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## April76

Noelle610 - i know how you feel, my boy is nearly 8 months old and at first he was doing great at sleeping. He got to 6 months old and it all went downhill. He wakes up every night almost every hour on the dot, i don't know how he does it. He just doesn't seem to want to sleep. I also feel like that im losing it :cry:.

I just don't know what has happened. There is no difference in his bedtime time routine. Im just hoping it gets better :cry:


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## Noelle610

April76 said:


> Noelle610 - i know how you feel, my boy is nearly 8 months old and at first he was doing great at sleeping. He got to 6 months old and it all went downhill. He wakes up every night almost every hour on the dot, i don't know how he does it. He just doesn't seem to want to sleep. I also feel like that im losing it :cry:.
> 
> I just don't know what has happened. There is no difference in his bedtime time routine. Im just hoping it gets better :cry:

It's so frustrating when you just can't figure it out! If I knew the "why" of it, I think it would be easier to cope. 

For me, quite honestly, I think I just have a "bad" (hate to use that term) sleeper. I know it just comes more naturally to some babies. When I accept it, it's easier. I truly struggle more when I'm looking for the solution and nothing works.

I was speaking with a client the other day who was encouraging. He told me his first child slept through the night at 6 weeks. He thought it was because they had a great routine and he was doing something right. He parented the next baby in exactly the same way... and he didn't sleep through the night until he was well over a year old and even then it wasn't consistent. He basically, said "All kids are different and you're doing nothing wrong". That helps to hear.


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## hamster wheel

Hi ladies, may I join this pity party? I have a terrible sleeper and at times I feel so hopeless. It doesn't help that others around me have terrific babies who have figured out how to sleep. At first I was optimistic when people said he'd get better after 6 weeks, then 12 weeks, then 6 months...he is now 7 months.

I'm in your camp, I can't figure it out and feel like I've tried everything. Hoping things will get better soon.


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## jessicatunnel

Awhh hun it will pass. At least that's what I keep telling myself. You know what a bad sleeper Lilly is, and every time I get up with her in the night I just take a deep breath and keep telling myself this won't last forever. SHE WILL SLEEP! Eventually..
LOL.


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## Noelle610

hamster wheel said:


> Hi ladies, may I join this pity party? I have a terrible sleeper and at times I feel so hopeless. It doesn't help that others around me have terrific babies who have figured out how to sleep. At first I was optimistic when people said he'd get better after 6 weeks, then 12 weeks, then 6 months...he is now 7 months.
> 
> I'm in your camp, I can't figure it out and feel like I've tried everything. Hoping things will get better soon.

I'm right there with you! That's the tough thing with those ambiguous "it gets better" dates. Everyone is telling me things will work themselves out by 6 months, but I don't want to get my hopes up for a random age that won't mean anything to my LO.


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## Noelle610

jessicatunnel said:


> Awhh hun it will pass. At least that's what I keep telling myself. You know what a bad sleeper Lilly is, and every time I get up with her in the night I just take a deep breath and keep telling myself this won't last forever. SHE WILL SLEEP! Eventually..
> LOL.

When I'm feeling sane, that's my mantra! They won't be waking us at 18, right?! You have such a good attitude, Jessica. Hope it rubs off on me.


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## Millnsy

I really feel for you US ladies going back to work so soon. At 5.5 months my oldest was a nightmare but I didn't have to work! All I know is that when I went back full time when she was 10 months she did sleep through and has ever since. No point to post, just sympathy!


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## newaddition

Noelle610 said:


> jessicatunnel said:
> 
> 
> Awhh hun it will pass. At least that's what I keep telling myself. You know what a bad sleeper Lilly is, and every time I get up with her in the night I just take a deep breath and keep telling myself this won't last forever. SHE WILL SLEEP! Eventually..
> LOL.
> 
> When I'm feeling sane, that's my mantra! They won't be waking us at 18, right?! You have such a good attitude, Jessica. Hope it rubs off on me.Click to expand...

May I just add that I have an 11 year old and a 5 month old ( yes, doing this again at 41) neither of my boys slept/ sleep...they are the exact same, waking every 1-3 hours, have never gone more than 3 hours at once. However, when my oldest finally did sleep he was a wonderful, secure, confident baby who slept great, even when he went to his big boy bed...never tried to get out, no problems....off to sleep for the night. It will pass and your efforts, sacrifices will be rewarded by secure children who know we are there for them when they need us. Some babies just need a little more help/ reassurance :) It will get better, honest... And I've been up since 4 am lol


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## socitycourty

Mine is too, she is such a bad sleeper/napper.

I have not had a straight sleep since May 31st (the day I went into labor) at first I thought it was her BF/reflux/allergy problems that kept her from sleeping. No, even with the formula and etc. her sleep is still bad.

She screams down the car every time. She cries all day. Gets up for bottles 2-3 times a night.

I'm so out of it sometimes I get scared. I do try to be grateful she is healthy, etc. and I love her to pieces but I feel less human now, like I have no personality or something if that makes sense, I can hardly get to the bathroom without her crying and if she's napping I have to tiptoe around and do chores as she is such a light sleeper.

We bedshare and I have a feeling if I didn't it would be even worse. If she's in a deep sleep, you set her down and her eyes pop open and she starts flapping her arms.

Sometimes it is so hard and I'm so exhausted. I still have 20 lbs to lose and at the moment I don't have the time or energy to exercise as hard as I need to, or to prepare healthy foods...it is really hard.

I don't have the heart to do any sleep training as the sound of her constant crying throughout the day already gives me anxiety attacks.

Just a whine to commiserate. My niece has been sleeping through since she was 6 weeks old! I try hard not to compare :wacko:


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## socitycourty

And I'm also ill from the long term lack of sleep. I had a flu for 3 weeks, then a cold for 3 weeks and I have weird problems with my appetite and my eating, and can't lose weight. :( not to mention horrible anxiety (which had been under control before she was born) and panic attacks


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## Noelle610

newaddition said:


> Noelle610 said:
> 
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> jessicatunnel said:
> 
> 
> Awhh hun it will pass. At least that's what I keep telling myself. You know what a bad sleeper Lilly is, and every time I get up with her in the night I just take a deep breath and keep telling myself this won't last forever. SHE WILL SLEEP! Eventually..
> LOL.
> 
> When I'm feeling sane, that's my mantra! They won't be waking us at 18, right?! You have such a good attitude, Jessica. Hope it rubs off on me.Click to expand...
> 
> May I just add that I have an 11 year old and a 5 month old ( yes, doing this again at 41) neither of my boys slept/ sleep...they are the exact same, waking every 1-3 hours, have never gone more than 3 hours at once. However, when my oldest finally did sleep he was a wonderful, secure, confident baby who slept great, even when he went to his big boy bed...never tried to get out, no problems....off to sleep for the night. It will pass and your efforts, sacrifices will be rewarded by secure children who know we are there for them when they need us. Some babies just need a little more help/ reassurance :) It will get better, honest... And I've been up since 4 am lolClick to expand...

It really helps to hear it from someone who has been there. When you're in it, it feels like it will go on FOREVER. Helps to get some perspective.


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## aliss

Noelle610 said:


> newaddition said:
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> jessicatunnel said:
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> Awhh hun it will pass. At least that's what I keep telling myself. You know what a bad sleeper Lilly is, and every time I get up with her in the night I just take a deep breath and keep telling myself this won't last forever. SHE WILL SLEEP! Eventually..
> LOL.
> 
> When I'm feeling sane, that's my mantra! They won't be waking us at 18, right?! You have such a good attitude, Jessica. Hope it rubs off on me.Click to expand...
> 
> May I just add that I have an 11 year old and a 5 month old ( yes, doing this again at 41) neither of my boys slept/ sleep...they are the exact same, waking every 1-3 hours, have never gone more than 3 hours at once. However, when my oldest finally did sleep he was a wonderful, secure, confident baby who slept great, even when he went to his big boy bed...never tried to get out, no problems....off to sleep for the night. It will pass and your efforts, sacrifices will be rewarded by secure children who know we are there for them when they need us. Some babies just need a little more help/ reassurance :) It will get better, honest... And I've been up since 4 am lolClick to expand...
> 
> It really helps to hear it from someone who has been there. When you're in it, it feels like it will go on FOREVER. Helps to get some perspective.Click to expand...

Alex was the same too. Mind you, by 14-18 months, we got by with 1 waking a night unless ill. I can say in hindsight it was very worth it, although the most exhausting thing ever.

Philippe... well, I can say at ONE week that Philippe is sleeping better than Alex did at 6 months :rofl: So, again it really cements my belief that there is a personality that you just need to work with.


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## Noelle610

socitycourty said:


> Mine is too, she is such a bad sleeper/napper.
> 
> I have not had a straight sleep since May 31st (the day I went into labor) at first I thought it was her BF/reflux/allergy problems that kept her from sleeping. No, even with the formula and etc. her sleep is still bad.
> 
> She screams down the car every time. She cries all day. Gets up for bottles 2-3 times a night.
> 
> I'm so out of it sometimes I get scared. I do try to be grateful she is healthy, etc. and I love her to pieces but I feel less human now, like I have no personality or something if that makes sense, I can hardly get to the bathroom without her crying and if she's napping I have to tiptoe around and do chores as she is such a light sleeper.
> 
> We bedshare and I have a feeling if I didn't it would be even worse. If she's in a deep sleep, you set her down and her eyes pop open and she starts flapping her arms.
> 
> Sometimes it is so hard and I'm so exhausted. I still have 20 lbs to lose and at the moment I don't have the time or energy to exercise as hard as I need to, or to prepare healthy foods...it is really hard.
> 
> I don't have the heart to do any sleep training as the sound of her constant crying throughout the day already gives me anxiety attacks.
> 
> Just a whine to commiserate. My niece has been sleeping through since she was 6 weeks old! I try hard not to compare :wacko:

I have had one straight sleep. I had to go to a training in a nearby city and spent the night. It was amazing to have a full night's sleep. It was almost a tease because it reminded me what it feels like!

I have no idea how women go to the gym on such little sleep. Although a good friend of mine insists it helps her feel more awake!

Totally relate to feeling "less human". Sleep is such a basic human need. I knew there would be sleepless nights when I planned to have a baby, but nothing could have prepared me!


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## Noelle610

socitycourty said:


> And I'm also ill from the long term lack of sleep. I had a flu for 3 weeks, then a cold for 3 weeks and I have weird problems with my appetite and my eating, and can't lose weight. :( not to mention horrible anxiety (which had been under control before she was born) and panic attacks

I'm lucky to have a pretty awesome immune system. I am TERRIFIED of getting sick. Not sure how I'd cope (thought I'm sure i would). I too suffer from anxiety and sleep deprivation has always made it worse.


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## Noelle610

aliss said:


> Noelle610 said:
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> newaddition said:
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> Noelle610 said:
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> jessicatunnel said:
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> Awhh hun it will pass. At least that's what I keep telling myself. You know what a bad sleeper Lilly is, and every time I get up with her in the night I just take a deep breath and keep telling myself this won't last forever. SHE WILL SLEEP! Eventually..
> LOL.
> 
> When I'm feeling sane, that's my mantra! They won't be waking us at 18, right?! You have such a good attitude, Jessica. Hope it rubs off on me.Click to expand...
> 
> May I just add that I have an 11 year old and a 5 month old ( yes, doing this again at 41) neither of my boys slept/ sleep...they are the exact same, waking every 1-3 hours, have never gone more than 3 hours at once. However, when my oldest finally did sleep he was a wonderful, secure, confident baby who slept great, even when he went to his big boy bed...never tried to get out, no problems....off to sleep for the night. It will pass and your efforts, sacrifices will be rewarded by secure children who know we are there for them when they need us. Some babies just need a little more help/ reassurance :) It will get better, honest... And I've been up since 4 am lolClick to expand...
> 
> It really helps to hear it from someone who has been there. When you're in it, it feels like it will go on FOREVER. Helps to get some perspective.Click to expand...
> 
> Alex was the same too. Mind you, by 14-18 months, we got by with 1 waking a night unless ill. I can say in hindsight it was very worth it, although the most exhausting thing ever.
> 
> Philippe... well, I can say at ONE week that Philippe is sleeping better than Alex did at 6 months :rofl: So, again it really cements my belief that there is a personality that you just need to work with.Click to expand...

1 night waking sounds like a dream right now! I wish someone could tell me *exactly* how long it would last so I could count down :)

I'm so happy Philippe is sleeping better... I just KNEW that would be the case for you!


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## socitycourty

when i was sick i had a 102 fever and she kept wanting to be held or picked up and i was hot/dizzy. i kept crying for my DH to get her off me. i felt bad but i was really sick


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## aliss

Noelle610 said:


> aliss said:
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> Noelle610 said:
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> newaddition said:
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> Noelle610 said:
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> jessicatunnel said:
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> Awhh hun it will pass. At least that's what I keep telling myself. You know what a bad sleeper Lilly is, and every time I get up with her in the night I just take a deep breath and keep telling myself this won't last forever. SHE WILL SLEEP! Eventually..
> LOL.
> 
> When I'm feeling sane, that's my mantra! They won't be waking us at 18, right?! You have such a good attitude, Jessica. Hope it rubs off on me.Click to expand...
> 
> May I just add that I have an 11 year old and a 5 month old ( yes, doing this again at 41) neither of my boys slept/ sleep...they are the exact same, waking every 1-3 hours, have never gone more than 3 hours at once. However, when my oldest finally did sleep he was a wonderful, secure, confident baby who slept great, even when he went to his big boy bed...never tried to get out, no problems....off to sleep for the night. It will pass and your efforts, sacrifices will be rewarded by secure children who know we are there for them when they need us. Some babies just need a little more help/ reassurance :) It will get better, honest... And I've been up since 4 am lolClick to expand...
> 
> It really helps to hear it from someone who has been there. When you're in it, it feels like it will go on FOREVER. Helps to get some perspective.Click to expand...
> 
> Alex was the same too. Mind you, by 14-18 months, we got by with 1 waking a night unless ill. I can say in hindsight it was very worth it, although the most exhausting thing ever.
> 
> Philippe... well, I can say at ONE week that Philippe is sleeping better than Alex did at 6 months :rofl: So, again it really cements my belief that there is a personality that you just need to work with.Click to expand...
> 
> 1 night waking sounds like a dream right now! I wish someone could tell me *exactly* how long it would last so I could count down :)
> 
> I'm so happy Philippe is sleeping better... I just KNEW that would be the case for you!Click to expand...

Thanks! Yes the time would help. I think pushing it out of my mind helped more though. I was back to work at 10 weeks (and between you and me, I worked 7pm-4am which gave me a 1 hour nap time at work, and working gave me better sleep LOL), I really do sympathize!!!!


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## Shoogle

Nathan from 5months 1week was up every 45 mins for 24days in a row. Then it just stopped. He still wakes several times but we only have to help 3ish times a night. We didnt change anything he just figured it out what he needed to I guess. I think at this point they are learning that they are separate from us. And things can be behind things and still exist. Makes for some bad nights. Me and my dh always split tthe night one does bedtime through 2am and wakes up with the baby in the morning. Te other does 2am to 6am which for us is the awful bit as he isn't a good early morning sleeper. It does get better hope for you it is sooner rather than later.


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## Noelle610

Shoogle said:


> Nathan from 5months 1week was up every 45 mins for 24days in a row. Then it just stopped. He still wakes several times but we only have to help 3ish times a night. We didnt change anything he just figured it out what he needed to I guess. I think at this point they are learning that they are separate from us. And things can be behind things and still exist. Makes for some bad nights. Me and my dh always split tthe night one does bedtime through 2am and wakes up with the baby in the morning. Te other does 2am to 6am which for us is the awful bit as he isn't a good early morning sleeper. It does get better hope for you it is sooner rather than later.

I have heard that some babies go very quickly from sleeping poorly to sleeping well. I don't want to get my hopes up, but I do wish this would happy for us! My friend Lara's baby was up every 2 hours around 4 months and at 5.5 months has recently started STTN. 

I really need to split more night work with DH, but I always hear LO before he does. UGH!


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## bananaz

Elsie was also up EVERY HOUR all night last night! What the heck is going on with these babies?! 

I've also given up on CC for the time being. It definitely helped her learn to self-settle for naps (which wasn't the goal at all, lol) but her nighttime sleep is still so screwy I think something else is going on, and I don't think CC is going to help. Last night when she woke I would just pick her up and she would melt in my arms, which is really quite strange for her. She was clearly so tired but something was keeping her up, and I have no idea what.

Anyway, I don't have any advice but I'm right there with you. I feel like I've exhausted all the tricks at my disposal and yet she's sleeping even worse than she did as a newborn. I don't care whether she STTN, I'd just like a nice 6-hour stretch again! I work full time but I'm lucky to have a very flexible job; I can't imagine having 55 hour weeks on this amount of sleep. I feel like death already.


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## Noelle610

bananaz said:


> Elsie was also up EVERY HOUR all night last night! What the heck is going on with these babies?!
> 
> I've also given up on CC for the time being. It definitely helped her learn to self-settle for naps (which wasn't the goal at all, lol) but her nighttime sleep is still so screwy I think something else is going on, and I don't think CC is going to help. Last night when she woke I would just pick her up and she would melt in my arms, which is really quite strange for her. She was clearly so tired but something was keeping her up, and I have no idea what.
> 
> Anyway, I don't have any advice but I'm right there with you. I feel like I've exhausted all the tricks at my disposal and yet she's sleeping even worse than she did as a newborn. I don't care whether she STTN, I'd just like a nice 6-hour stretch again! I work full time but I'm lucky to have a very flexible job; I can't imagine having 55 hour weeks on this amount of sleep. I feel like death already.

Bananaz! Why do our babies do this to us? I know you had those nice long 8 hour stretches at one point, too. It makes it that much more confusing because you feel like, "I know YOU can do this!". 

I've had that experience with Charlie too... It's as if she WANTS to be asleep, but something is waking her. I can't quite explain it. 

I too have given up on STTN. 6 hours would be heaven! As a newborn, you kind of expect this (well, I didn't, but I was incredibly unprepared and naive for the reality of a baby). I think what is hard for me is comparing myself to others. Every newborn is waking pretty frequently, but at 5.5 months old all of my mom friends' babies are beginning to make progress toward STTN and we've gone backwards.


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## bananaz

Noelle610 said:


> Bananaz! Why do our babies do this to us? I know you had those nice long 8 hour stretches at one point, too. It makes it that much more confusing because you feel like, "I know YOU can do this!".
> 
> I've had that experience with Charlie too... It's as if she WANTS to be asleep, but something is waking her. I can't quite explain it.
> 
> I too have given up on STTN. 6 hours would be heaven! As a newborn, you kind of expect this (well, I didn't, but I was incredibly unprepared and naive for the reality of a baby). I think what is hard for me is comparing myself to others. Every newborn is waking pretty frequently, but at 5.5 months old all of my mom friends' babies are beginning to make progress toward STTN and we've gone backwards.

Yep, there were several weeks of 8+ hour nights for us (and even a couple 10 hour nights!). It was bliss. My biggest fear is that I'll be looking back on this time a year from now saying "And from then on, she never slept more than 3 hours in a row."

Let's hope this is all a Wonder Week thing and by the end of week 26 they'll understand distances or cause and effect or whatever it is and then start STTN! :haha:


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## Shoogle

If I hear ds before dh I just wake him up and tell him its his hours lol. My sil has an easy baby who sttn since 3 weeks and she complains all the time. She even went back to work when my nephew was 5 weeks old because she cant handle it! Lol.


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## Noelle610

bananaz said:


> Noelle610 said:
> 
> 
> Bananaz! Why do our babies do this to us? I know you had those nice long 8 hour stretches at one point, too. It makes it that much more confusing because you feel like, "I know YOU can do this!".
> 
> I've had that experience with Charlie too... It's as if she WANTS to be asleep, but something is waking her. I can't quite explain it.
> 
> I too have given up on STTN. 6 hours would be heaven! As a newborn, you kind of expect this (well, I didn't, but I was incredibly unprepared and naive for the reality of a baby). I think what is hard for me is comparing myself to others. Every newborn is waking pretty frequently, but at 5.5 months old all of my mom friends' babies are beginning to make progress toward STTN and we've gone backwards.
> 
> Yep, there were several weeks of 8+ hour nights for us (and even a couple 10 hour nights!). It was bliss. My biggest fear is that I'll be looking back on this time a year from now saying "And from then on, she never slept more than 3 hours in a row."
> 
> Let's hope this is all a Wonder Week thing and by the end of week 26 they'll understand distances or cause and effect or whatever it is and then start STTN! :haha:Click to expand...

ME TOO! I met a woman the other day who told me her child didn't sleep through the night until he was 5 or something insane like that. I don't think I could hide the look of horror on my face. 

Charlotte did roll from belly to back for the first time consistently today... she can't stop doing it. So I do wonder if there's a connection. It's so hard with these Wonder Weeks because they get these "hidden" skills too. Their little brains are on fire!

I can't hep feeling like it's "my turn" for STTN. But then my husband reminds me that the single mom working 3 jobs with a baby who is up all night probably feels the same and then I feel guilty!


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## MrsPMP

Noelle, we meet again!..and again our babies are identical!! Elijah is waking every 2 hrs, and this week for the first time ever NOT going back down for an hour or so at around 3am. I have a feeling that part of it is the start of seperation anxiety-so have bought a bed guard so i can co sleep with him when I get sick of taking him back to bed...we are also now trying the pick up put down sleep method...tried all the rest!..including CC...like you-worked for a couple days then got worse!


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## MiniKiwi

Hang in there Noelle :hugs: sorry I've got no advice. I'm so nervous about Mia learning to roll and it affecting her sleep. I feel pretty lucky with 2-3 wake ups at the moment. I can't imagine how tough it is working while you feel like that either :hugs:


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## Noelle610

MrsPMP said:


> Noelle, we meet again!..and again our babies are identical!! Elijah is waking every 2 hrs, and this week for the first time ever NOT going back down for an hour or so at around 3am. I have a feeling that part of it is the start of seperation anxiety-so have bought a bed guard so i can co sleep with him when I get sick of taking him back to bed...we are also now trying the pick up put down sleep method...tried all the rest!..including CC...like you-worked for a couple days then got worse!

Were our babies calling each other on the phone at 3am the other night?! It's like the "party time" hour! Good luck with PU/PD! Would love to know how it goes. I do hope you both get some rest soon.


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## Noelle610

MiniKiwi said:


> Hang in there Noelle :hugs: sorry I've got no advice. I'm so nervous about Mia learning to roll and it affecting her sleep. I feel pretty lucky with 2-3 wake ups at the moment. I can't imagine how tough it is working while you feel like that either :hugs:

Oh gosh, that darn rolling! 2-3 wake ups isn't bad, especially when LO is learning a new skill! Charlotte learned to roll back to tummy and we went through weeks of my rushing into her room to "rescue" her since she would cry when she woke that way. I'm happy to report she is finally getting comfortable on her tummy.

Today she rolled belly to back for the first time consistently. That's all she wants to do today! I'm now wondering if there's a connection between this new skill and her poor sleep last night. It's always something with these kids!


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## hubblybubbly

I also can't see the light at the end of the tunnel sometimes. 

Willow stopped sleeping through ( she was doing 10/12 hours at a time) at about 5 months...I thought it was a regression an we'd get through it in a few weeks, but no she still wakes 10 odd times a night,and sometimes I feel like a zombie, and that it will never end.

I heard another mum with a baby a similar age talking t her friends in a restaurant yesterday say "he sleeps 11 hours a night, but I'm so tired he used to do at least 13..." honestly I nearly strangled her....

X


----------



## Noelle610

hubblybubbly said:


> I also can't see the light at the end of the tunnel sometimes.
> 
> Willow stopped sleeping through ( she was doing 10/12 hours at a time) at about 5 months...I thought it was a regression an we'd get through it in a few weeks, but no she still wakes 10 odd times a night,and sometimes I feel like a zombie, and that it will never end.
> 
> I heard another mum with a baby a similar age talking t her friends in a restaurant yesterday say "he sleeps 11 hours a night, but I'm so tired he used to do at least 13..." honestly I nearly strangled her....
> 
> X

UGH I would have been so irritated! A woman in my moms' group has a baby that sleeps through most nights, but will wake around 4am on the odd night. She always complains about it and it drives me nuts. 

I hope you get some rest soon.


----------



## mrsbeano

Me too. Quinn slept through for the grand total of 9 nights and has now stopped, although last night was a vast improvement as he slept until 5.30 he took an hour and 15 to resettle. I really feel he trying to taunt me sometimes... he slept through whilst his Dad was on holiday for a week and as soon as he goes back to work he promptly stops again. 

I try to not get upset and jealous about it but I can't. Truly dreading going back to work in January as I don't think he will be giving me enough sleep to function. I swear that all the other babies we know slept through from before 10 weeks old. I just wish someone could tell me what to do or where I have gone wrong.


----------



## Noelle610

mrsbeano said:


> Me too. Quinn slept through for the grand total of 9 nights and has now stopped, although last night was a vast improvement as he slept until 5.30 he took an hour and 15 to resettle. I really feel he trying to taunt me sometimes... he slept through whilst his Dad was on holiday for a week and as soon as he goes back to work he promptly stops again.
> 
> I try to not get upset and jealous about it but I can't. Truly dreading going back to work in January as I don't think he will be giving me enough sleep to function. I swear that all the other babies we know slept through from before 10 weeks old. I just wish someone could tell me what to do or where I have gone wrong.

What a tease! If he's done it so many times though, I'm sure he will do it again. 

Truly, you've done nothing wrong! All babies are different. A good friend of mine has a baby that has slept through the night from 6 weeks. In fact, she was born on the same day as Charlotte in the same hospital! She and her husband have done everything "wrong" from feeding to sleep to driving the baby around in the car to get her to sleep. For some reason, their LO has no issues with sleep associations or transitioning through sleep cycles without parental assistance. It goes against all of the "expert" advice. It just must be her temperament. They got lucky!

Don't worry too much about work. Although it's been very difficult doing my job on little sleep, there are times when I find it easier than caring for a baby. The break can help too, especially when you are exhausted. Even when I come home at the end of the day and am dead tired, I somehow find the energy to engage with LO and really be present during her bedtime routine. That's our time together.

Quinn will sleep through again soon, don't you worry! Another girlfriend of mine's baby did the same thing... She took a hiatus from sleeping through and started waking 1-3 times a night for a couple weeks, but she just went right back to her old STTN ways after the blip.


----------



## Serenity_Now

Noelle610 said:

> I was speaking with a client the other day who was encouraging. He told me his first child slept through the night at 6 weeks. He thought it was because they had a great routine and he was doing something right. He parented the next baby in exactly the same way... and he didn't sleep through the night until he was well over a year old and even then it wasn't consistent. He basically, said "All kids are different and you're doing nothing wrong". That helps to hear.

*THIS.* Oh so _totally_ this. Babies are _such _individuals. We think that it's because we've done this or that style or routine or theory because thinking that makes us mommies feel better: we have the illusion of having some control over the uncontrollable. Even so that sometimes it will get us on a soapbox, because we want to "help others have success like ours!" Not that routines are unimportant -- some babies crave them while others will break the routine just because they can.

Whenever someone asks a "what should I do" thread... I always just relate my experience because honestly, I do not have your baby, I do not know your baby, so I really cannot tell you what to do. All I can tell you is what works for my baby and hope that somehow, you might see something in it that relates somehow to your baby's wants/needs/personality.


----------



## polaris

Noelle610 said:


> April76 said:
> 
> 
> Noelle610 - i know how you feel, my boy is nearly 8 months old and at first he was doing great at sleeping. He got to 6 months old and it all went downhill. He wakes up every night almost every hour on the dot, i don't know how he does it. He just doesn't seem to want to sleep. I also feel like that im losing it :cry:.
> 
> I just don't know what has happened. There is no difference in his bedtime time routine. Im just hoping it gets better :cry:
> 
> It's so frustrating when you just can't figure it out! If I knew the "why" of it, I think it would be easier to cope.
> 
> For me, quite honestly, I think I just have a "bad" (hate to use that term) sleeper. I know it just comes more naturally to some babies. When I accept it, it's easier. I truly struggle more when I'm looking for the solution and nothing works.
> 
> I was speaking with a client the other day who was encouraging. He told me his first child slept through the night at 6 weeks. He thought it was because they had a great routine and he was doing something right. He parented the next baby in exactly the same way... and he didn't sleep through the night until he was well over a year old and even then it wasn't consistent. He basically, said "All kids are different and you're doing nothing wrong". That helps to hear.Click to expand...

This is pretty much what I was going to say to you. My son wasn't a great sleeper and I was constantly exhausted. He never slept much during the day, was awake until after midnight until he was about three months old, woke every hour during the night for feeds, etc. My new baby is a much better sleeper - she's not sleeping through but at 11 weeks she already sleeps pretty solidly from 6.30 to 6.30, just waking very briefly for feeds. It's nothing you are doing wrong - babies are just different. Everything that didn't work with Thomas works perfectly with Clara. She's just predisposed to sleep better I think. She sleeps much more during the day too.

Just to give you some (long-term) hope, Thomas is an excellent sleeper as a toddler, at three he sleeps 12 hours through the night and has a 1-1.5 hour nap during the day too. We very rarely have to go into him at night unless he's not well. He slept through the night from 9 months, had a regression for a couple of months after I went back to work when he was 11 months, and has slept through consistently from about 14 months. So just because you have a "bad sleeper" as a baby, it doesn't mean it will always be this way.


----------



## Noelle610

:haha:


Serenity_Now said:


> Noelle610 said:
> 
> I was speaking with a client the other day who was encouraging. He told me his first child slept through the night at 6 weeks. He thought it was because they had a great routine and he was doing something right. He parented the next baby in exactly the same way... and he didn't sleep through the night until he was well over a year old and even then it wasn't consistent. He basically, said "All kids are different and you're doing nothing wrong". That helps to hear.
> 
> *THIS.* Oh so _totally_ this. Babies are _such _individuals. We think that it's because we've done this or that style or routine or theory because thinking that makes us mommies feel better: we have the illusion of having some control over the uncontrollable. Even so that sometimes it will get us on a soapbox, because we want to "help others have success like ours!" Not that routines are unimportant -- some babies crave them while others will break the routine just because they can.
> 
> Whenever someone asks a "what should I do" thread... I always just relate my experience because honestly, I do not have your baby, I do not know your baby, so I really cannot tell you what to do. All I can tell you is what works for my baby and hope that somehow, you might see something in it that relates somehow to your baby's wants/needs/personality.Click to expand...

So true. I do think there is an illusion of control. Honestly, had my baby been a great sleeper I probably would have felt I had done something right, being that I've read all of these books. If your baby has a problem with sleeping, I can probably give you great advice :haha:


----------



## Noelle610

polaris said:


> Noelle610 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> April76 said:
> 
> 
> Noelle610 - i know how you feel, my boy is nearly 8 months old and at first he was doing great at sleeping. He got to 6 months old and it all went downhill. He wakes up every night almost every hour on the dot, i don't know how he does it. He just doesn't seem to want to sleep. I also feel like that im losing it :cry:.
> 
> I just don't know what has happened. There is no difference in his bedtime time routine. Im just hoping it gets better :cry:
> 
> It's so frustrating when you just can't figure it out! If I knew the "why" of it, I think it would be easier to cope.
> 
> For me, quite honestly, I think I just have a "bad" (hate to use that term) sleeper. I know it just comes more naturally to some babies. When I accept it, it's easier. I truly struggle more when I'm looking for the solution and nothing works.
> 
> I was speaking with a client the other day who was encouraging. He told me his first child slept through the night at 6 weeks. He thought it was because they had a great routine and he was doing something right. He parented the next baby in exactly the same way... and he didn't sleep through the night until he was well over a year old and even then it wasn't consistent. He basically, said "All kids are different and you're doing nothing wrong". That helps to hear.Click to expand...
> 
> This is pretty much what I was going to say to you. My son wasn't a great sleeper and I was constantly exhausted. He never slept much during the day, was awake until after midnight until he was about three months old, woke every hour during the night for feeds, etc. My new baby is a much better sleeper - she's not sleeping through but at 11 weeks she already sleeps pretty solidly from 6.30 to 6.30, just waking very briefly for feeds. It's nothing you are doing wrong - babies are just different. Everything that didn't work with Thomas works perfectly with Clara. She's just predisposed to sleep better I think. She sleeps much more during the day too.
> 
> Just to give you some (long-term) hope, Thomas is an excellent sleeper as a toddler, at three he sleeps 12 hours through the night and has a 1-1.5 hour nap during the day too. We very rarely have to go into him at night unless he's not well. He slept through the night from 9 months, had a regression for a couple of months after I went back to work when he was 11 months, and has slept through consistently from about 14 months. So just because you have a "bad sleeper" as a baby, it doesn't mean it will always be this way.Click to expand...

Thank you for your experience. Truthfully, I love long-term hope! I have kind of given up on the short-term, anyway :) 

I've had multiple women tell me that their poor sleeping/fussy babies have become great sleeping/lovely toddlers For now I'm dropping any serious attempts to make her sleep and just loving her. Hopefully she feels secure enough to STTN at some point!


----------



## MrsPear

We are in the same boat. Joni has had the occasional great week where she has only woken up twice in the night, but she can easily wake up every 2 hours for the first half of the night and then every hour for the second half. Last night she was up at about 4am for the day. It feels so miserable doesn't it. I think the worst thing is when people try to offer advice and I feel like a failure because it's almost like I'm bringing it on myself by not doing the 'right' things. Of course most people who do offer advice are very well meaning so I don't say anything, but I do just get really sensitive that people think I'm making it up or that I could so easily avoid the night time problems if I tried a bit harder.

We will get through this! It is really hard but the fact that our babies have had better periods of sleep is a good sign that they will slip back into it again! That's what I keep thinking anyway, it keeps me sane :flower: 

Big hugs to you, I am really on the same page and I do understand. In fact, I have just spent 45 minutes rocking Joni and she finally fell asleep for a nap...then five minute later and PING! Her eyes are wide open and she is now batting at toys in her bumbo. What a nightmare getting some babies to sleep is. We will get there in the end though :flower:


----------



## Noelle610

MrsPear said:


> We are in the same boat. Joni has had the occasional great week where she has only woken up twice in the night, but she can easily wake up every 2 hours for the first half of the night and then every hour for the second half. Last night she was up at about 4am for the day. It feels so miserable doesn't it. I think the worst thing is when people try to offer advice and I feel like a failure because it's almost like I'm bringing it on myself by not doing the 'right' things. Of course most people who do offer advice are very well meaning so I don't say anything, but I do just get really sensitive that people think I'm making it up or that I could so easily avoid the night time problems if I tried a bit harder.
> 
> We will get through this! It is really hard but the fact that our babies have had better periods of sleep is a good sign that they will slip back into it again! That's what I keep thinking anyway, it keeps me sane :flower:
> 
> Big hugs to you, I am really on the same page and I do understand. In fact, I have just spent 45 minutes rocking Joni and she finally fell asleep for a nap...then five minute later and PING! Her eyes are wide open and she is now batting at toys in her bumbo. What a nightmare getting some babies to sleep is. We will get there in the end though :flower:

I was up early today too. Fun fun! Nothing says "good morning" quite like a smiley baby at 4am :)

I hear you on the well-meaning advice givers. If one more person asks if I have a bedtime routine I might cry.


----------



## bananaz

How did last night go? Better I hope? 

Also, do you have a bedtime routine? haha:)


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## stephj25

I feel your pain!! I'm in exactly the same boat, a couple of days after Olivia hit 23 weeks, she has been waking up every hour, last night she went for 2 hours up until 4am then every hour!!
I have the 'wonder weeks' book and it says it starts around 23 weeks an lasts between 1-5 weeks. My LO is teething too which doesn't help as she keeps screaming.
Hopefully it will be over for us very soon
xxxx


----------



## Noelle610

bananaz said:


> How did last night go? Better I hope?
> 
> Also, do you have a bedtime routine? haha:)

You!!! :haha:

Last night was much better, in fact... until the early morning!

Charlotte had great naps and went to bed early - around 6:15pm. She actually slept until 1am!!! DH said he heard her briefly stir at 9:30pm for 5 minutes or so, but I must have been dead asleep because I didn't wake (he was off today, so on duty for the early part of the evening... even so, I usually wake when she does). She then got up again at 4:30am. Still going good. But then I decided to change her diaper and she had a stuffy nose. I think these two things combined really woke her and she decided she was up for the day. I tried to soothe her to no avail and finally got up with her at 5:30am. Still, much better than yesterday. 

She's super unpredictable, though, so tonight we could be back to waking hourly!


----------



## Noelle610

stephj25 said:


> I feel your pain!! I'm in exactly the same boat, a couple of days after Olivia hit 23 weeks, she has been waking up every hour, last night she went for 2 hours up until 4am then every hour!!
> I have the 'wonder weeks' book and it says it starts around 23 weeks an lasts between 1-5 weeks. My LO is teething too which doesn't help as she keeps screaming.
> Hopefully it will be over for us very soon
> xxxx

Wonder Weeks has been pretty spot-on for my LO too! WW 26's fussy period does indeed start at week 23. Here's hoping we both see some better sleep when they come out of this phase. It's tough because WW 19 and 26 are soo close together. I spoke with a "sleep coach" recently and she basically said 4-6 months is one huge Wonder Week.


----------



## Noelle610

To make matters worse, I used to have a buddy with a baby that slept worse than mine. She was up every 90 minutes during the 4 month sleep regression. BUT.... this baby recently started STTN, 11 hours straight out of nowhere! NO FAIR!


----------



## stephj25

I don't remember WW19 being this bad, there was only a couple of nights of waking every hour. 
I know what you mean about friends babies STTN. I have one friend that constantly brags (her LO sleeps 12 hours straight) every time I mention sleep problems :growlmad: ....because that is what you want to hear! :dohh:


----------



## bananaz

Noelle610 said:


> You!!! :haha:
> 
> Last night was much better, in fact... until the early morning!
> 
> Charlotte had great naps and went to bed early - around 6:15pm. She actually slept until 1am!!! DH said he heard her briefly stir at 9:30pm for 5 minutes or so, but I must have been dead asleep because I didn't wake (he was off today, so on duty for the early part of the evening... even so, I usually wake when she does). She then got up again at 4:30am. Still going good. But then I decided to change her diaper and she had a stuffy nose. I think these two things combined really woke her and she decided she was up for the day. I tried to soothe her to no avail and finally got up with her at 5:30am. Still, much better than yesterday.
> 
> She's super unpredictable, though, so tonight we could be back to waking hourly!


Wow, 6:15pm to 4:30am is pretty amazing! Good job Charlotte :thumbup: The early morning wakeup is a bummer though. Elsie's been getting up between 4:30 and 5am the past few days, but this morning I convinced her to stay down until almost 6am. A small victory :haha:


----------



## Noelle610

bananaz said:


> Noelle610 said:
> 
> 
> You!!! :haha:
> 
> Last night was much better, in fact... until the early morning!
> 
> Charlotte had great naps and went to bed early - around 6:15pm. She actually slept until 1am!!! DH said he heard her briefly stir at 9:30pm for 5 minutes or so, but I must have been dead asleep because I didn't wake (he was off today, so on duty for the early part of the evening... even so, I usually wake when she does). She then got up again at 4:30am. Still going good. But then I decided to change her diaper and she had a stuffy nose. I think these two things combined really woke her and she decided she was up for the day. I tried to soothe her to no avail and finally got up with her at 5:30am. Still, much better than yesterday.
> 
> She's super unpredictable, though, so tonight we could be back to waking hourly!
> 
> 
> Wow, 6:15pm to 4:30am is pretty amazing! Good job Charlotte :thumbup: The early morning wakeup is a bummer though. Elsie's been getting up between 4:30 and 5am the past few days, but this morning I convinced her to stay down until almost 6am. A small victory :haha:Click to expand...

It's the little things that count! I sent DH out for 12 Hour Pampers Baby Dry, so hopefully we've solved the changing problem.


----------



## Boo44

Uuuurgh I didn't realise there was another WW starting at 23 weeks?! That's only 3 weeks away and we're just in/maybe getting over(?!) the WW19 one!


----------



## Noelle610

Boo44 said:


> Uuuurgh I didn't realise there was another WW starting at 23 weeks?! That's only 3 weeks away and we're just in/maybe getting over(?!) the WW19 one!

I know - they are SO close together! But this one is much shorter and less painful for most :)


----------



## AllyTiel

Call me a bad mom, but I need sleep so much that when my baby wakes (After being changed and resettled all comfy) I put her back and let her fuss until she goes back to sleep. She always goes back to sleep like she needs, even if it takes 30 mins or more. I just can't stay up with her if she decides its playtime at 1:30am. She had been sleeping so good since she was a month old, and now she has started waking out of nowhere! And Im not going to get in the habit of feeding her when she hasn't needed feeding in the night in so long. I don't know if there is something wrong with me, my maternal instinct lacking or something? I can let her fuss herself back to sleep. (Although I must say last time I really had the urge to go get her and pull her into bed with me. OH wouldnt have allowed though) I just see so many women saying they can't let their LO's cry. I saw recently on the the news that scientists may have discovered the gene that makes you a maternal woman or not. I wonder if Im missing that gene :/

BTW Noelle, your profile pic really reminds me of my LO. She even has the same toy lol


----------



## stephj25

How was last night Noelle? I woke up around 6 times which is an improvement on the night before!


----------



## MiniKiwi

AllyTiel said:


> Im not going to get in the habit of feeding her when she hasn't needed feeding in the night in so long.

Are you sure your LO isn't waking to be fed? Just because she didn't need feeding before, doesn't mean she isn't hungry at night now. My LO used to sttn, some nights she still will do that and others she will wake to feed up to four times. Just saying, I think it is very important to rule out hunger as a cause for her waking.


----------



## stephj25

MiniKiwi said:


> AllyTiel said:
> 
> 
> Im not going to get in the habit of feeding her when she hasn't needed feeding in the night in so long.
> 
> Are you sure your LO isn't waking to be fed? Just because she didn't need feeding before, doesn't mean she isn't hungry at night now. My LO used to sttn, some nights she still will do that and others she will wake to feed up to four times. Just saying, I think it is very important to rule out hunger as a cause for her waking.Click to expand...

I agree with this. My LO didn't used to wake this much and she guzzles my milk down every time. Also, if I wake up hungry I can still go back to sleep....
my LO never cries in the night either, she just kinda grunts. But even then, I give it a max of 15 mins before feeding her. X


----------



## Noelle610

AllyTiel said:


> Call me a bad mom, but I need sleep so much that when my baby wakes (After being changed and resettled all comfy) I put her back and let her fuss until she goes back to sleep. She always goes back to sleep like she needs, even if it takes 30 mins or more. I just can't stay up with her if she decides its playtime at 1:30am. She had been sleeping so good since she was a month old, and now she has started waking out of nowhere! And Im not going to get in the habit of feeding her when she hasn't needed feeding in the night in so long. I don't know if there is something wrong with me, my maternal instinct lacking or something? I can let her fuss herself back to sleep. (Although I must say last time I really had the urge to go get her and pull her into bed with me. OH wouldnt have allowed though) I just see so many women saying they can't let their LO's cry. I saw recently on the the news that scientists may have discovered the gene that makes you a maternal woman or not. I wonder if Im missing that gene :/
> 
> BTW Noelle, your profile pic really reminds me of my LO. She even has the same toy lol

Oh no, you are not a bad mom! I have no problem letting my LO fuss for a bit to put herself to sleep. And she's usually pretty good at that, even if she does wake. I think teaching a baby to sleep is an important skill. That's why the other night was so strange! It's very odd for her to be just awake in the middle of the night. 

You are so lucky your LO has been STTN for some time now! I must admit I'm jealous :) It's important for moms to get their rest. I feel I am just so much more present and engaged when I get sleep.

Thanks! These girls are just so darn cute, aren't they? :)


----------



## Noelle610

stephj25 said:


> How was last night Noelle? I woke up around 6 times which is an improvement on the night before!

So glad you had a better night! Things were vastly better for us too. Charlotte woke at midnight and 3am for feeds and is still sleeping at 5:45am! Like I said before, sleep through the night isn't even really the goal here. I just want us both to get some solid blocks of sleep. 

Unfortunately the poor thing could barely eat at 3am because her nose was so stuffy. I can't believe she slept so well considering she doesn't feel well at the moment.


----------



## Noelle610

stephj25 said:


> MiniKiwi said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AllyTiel said:
> 
> 
> Im not going to get in the habit of feeding her when she hasn't needed feeding in the night in so long.
> 
> Are you sure your LO isn't waking to be fed? Just because she didn't need feeding before, doesn't mean she isn't hungry at night now. My LO used to sttn, some nights she still will do that and others she will wake to feed up to four times. Just saying, I think it is very important to rule out hunger as a cause for her waking.Click to expand...
> 
> I agree with this. My LO didn't used to wake this much and she guzzles my milk down every time. Also, if I wake up hungry I can still go back to sleep....
> my LO never cries in the night either, she just kinda grunts. But even then, I give it a max of 15 mins before feeding her. XClick to expand...

I think it's such a tough call to make. On one hand, you want to feed a hungry baby, but on the other hand, you don't want to encourage night feeding out of habit rather than necessity (unless you enjoy it, which is fine). Different sources say different things - Ferber insists a baby doesn't need to be fed at night after 3 months while Weissbluth says breastfed babies may need 2 night feeds until 9 months. Both of these experts are actually fairly similar in their approaches to sleep, but they disagree greatly on these points.

I made an attempt to night wean my LO a few weeks ago, but I got the sense she wasn't ready. We just started on solids and she had really severe reflux as a young baby, so I don't want to go there quite yet if she still needs her calories. I'm also aware that there is a HUGE growth spurt at 6 months and she may need to eat more in the night at that time. I think that's the last major one, if I'm correct? At LO's 6 month checkup I'll discuss this with her doctor and if she's ready, we'll go ahead and slowly/gently cut out the night feeds.


----------



## MrsPear

Noelle610 said:


> AllyTiel said:
> 
> 
> Call me a bad mom, but I need sleep so much that when my baby wakes (After being changed and resettled all comfy) I put her back and let her fuss until she goes back to sleep. She always goes back to sleep like she needs, even if it takes 30 mins or more. I just can't stay up with her if she decides its playtime at 1:30am. She had been sleeping so good since she was a month old, and now she has started waking out of nowhere! And Im not going to get in the habit of feeding her when she hasn't needed feeding in the night in so long. I don't know if there is something wrong with me, my maternal instinct lacking or something? I can let her fuss herself back to sleep. (Although I must say last time I really had the urge to go get her and pull her into bed with me. OH wouldnt have allowed though) I just see so many women saying they can't let their LO's cry. I saw recently on the the news that scientists may have discovered the gene that makes you a maternal woman or not. I wonder if Im missing that gene :/
> 
> BTW Noelle, your profile pic really reminds me of my LO. She even has the same toy lol
> 
> Oh no, you are not a bad mom! I have no problem letting my LO fuss for a bit to put herself to sleep. And she's usually pretty good at that, even if she does wake. I think teaching a baby to sleep is an important skill. That's why the other night was so strange! It's very odd for her to be just awake in the middle of the night.
> 
> You are so lucky your LO has been STTN for some time now! I must admit I'm jealous :) It's important for moms to get their rest. I feel I am just so much more present and engaged when I get sleep.
> 
> Thanks! These girls are just so darn cute, aren't they? :)Click to expand...

I always let Joni fuss away at night, I get her out the second she cries but probably 50% of the time she will fall asleep after 30 mins or so of batting her mobile and squawking. I don't think she;s actually unhappy so I just leave her to it. Can't sleep through it but it's still relaxing to be curled up in bed!

Joni was up at 4:30 again but I did manage to get her back to sleep on me so I just lay and chilled PLUS we both went back to bed at 8 and she fed/slept till 10 so I can't complain.

I think I'm being unfair on her because her sleeping is not actually that bad, she usually wakes up 3 times and that's fine. The problem is more that she never stops pooping, she can't go a whole night without one or two nappy changes and without fail it completely wakes her up and it's the getting her back into a deep sleep that's the struggle. I'm pretty sure her sleeping would not be so bad otherwise . x


----------



## AllyTiel

MiniKiwi said:


> AllyTiel said:
> 
> 
> Im not going to get in the habit of feeding her when she hasn't needed feeding in the night in so long.
> 
> Are you sure your LO isn't waking to be fed? Just because she didn't need feeding before, doesn't mean she isn't hungry at night now. My LO used to sttn, some nights she still will do that and others she will wake to feed up to four times. Just saying, I think it is very important to rule out hunger as a cause for her waking.Click to expand...

I have to try and use good mommy judgement here. Like when she went to bed at 8:30pm and woke at 4:30am, I went ahead and fed her, because she had slept a really long stretch and might have been hungry. But more recently when she woke at 1:30, I didn't feed her. Based on when she last ate which hadn't been too long ago. Also when I put her back to bed, I listen to what her cry sounds like. If its a grizzly fuss like "I don't wanna be here, I want to be up playing", then I leave her to go back to sleep. If it was a hunger cry or a pain cry, it would be a different story.
I do understand she may go through a 4 month sleep regression soon and may be hungry in the night. I'll take that into account also.


----------



## AllyTiel

Noelle610 said:


> stephj25 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MiniKiwi said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AllyTiel said:
> 
> 
> Im not going to get in the habit of feeding her when she hasn't needed feeding in the night in so long.
> 
> Are you sure your LO isn't waking to be fed? Just because she didn't need feeding before, doesn't mean she isn't hungry at night now. My LO used to sttn, some nights she still will do that and others she will wake to feed up to four times. Just saying, I think it is very important to rule out hunger as a cause for her waking.Click to expand...
> 
> I agree with this. My LO didn't used to wake this much and she guzzles my milk down every time. Also, if I wake up hungry I can still go back to sleep....
> my LO never cries in the night either, she just kinda grunts. But even then, I give it a max of 15 mins before feeding her. XClick to expand...
> 
> I think it's such a tough call to make. On one hand, you want to feed a hungry baby, but on the other hand, you don't want to encourage night feeding out of habit rather than necessity (unless you enjoy it, which is fine). Different sources say different things - Ferber insists a baby doesn't need to be fed at night after 3 months while Weissbluth says breastfed babies may need 2 night feeds until 9 months. Both of these experts are actually fairly similar in their approaches to sleep, but they disagree greatly on these points.
> 
> *I made an attempt to night wean my LO a few weeks ago, but I got the sense she wasn't ready*. We just started on solids and she had really severe reflux as a young baby, so I don't want to go there quite yet if she still needs her calories. I'm also aware that there is a HUGE growth spurt at 6 months and she may need to eat more in the night at that time. I think that's the last major one, if I'm correct? At LO's 6 month checkup I'll discuss this with her doctor and if she's ready, we'll go ahead and slowly/gently cut out the night feeds.Click to expand...

And thats the thing. We just have to try and use the best mommy sense we can to do the best thing for our LO's. :flower:


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## stephj25

AllyTiel said:


> Noelle610 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> stephj25 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MiniKiwi said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AllyTiel said:
> 
> 
> Im not going to get in the habit of feeding her when she hasn't needed feeding in the night in so long.
> 
> Are you sure your LO isn't waking to be fed? Just because she didn't need feeding before, doesn't mean she isn't hungry at night now. My LO used to sttn, some nights she still will do that and others she will wake to feed up to four times. Just saying, I think it is very important to rule out hunger as a cause for her waking.Click to expand...
> 
> I agree with this. My LO didn't used to wake this much and she guzzles my milk down every time. Also, if I wake up hungry I can still go back to sleep....
> my LO never cries in the night either, she just kinda grunts. But even then, I give it a max of 15 mins before feeding her. XClick to expand...
> 
> I think it's such a tough call to make. On one hand, you want to feed a hungry baby, but on the other hand, you don't want to encourage night feeding out of habit rather than necessity (unless you enjoy it, which is fine). Different sources say different things - Ferber insists a baby doesn't need to be fed at night after 3 months while Weissbluth says breastfed babies may need 2 night feeds until 9 months. Both of these experts are actually fairly similar in their approaches to sleep, but they disagree greatly on these points.
> 
> *I made an attempt to night wean my LO a few weeks ago, but I got the sense she wasn't ready*. We just started on solids and she had really severe reflux as a young baby, so I don't want to go there quite yet if she still needs her calories. I'm also aware that there is a HUGE growth spurt at 6 months and she may need to eat more in the night at that time. I think that's the last major one, if I'm correct? At LO's 6 month checkup I'll discuss this with her doctor and if she's ready, we'll go ahead and slowly/gently cut out the night feeds.Click to expand...
> 
> And thats the thing. We just have to try and use the best mommy sense we can to do the best thing for our LO's. :flower:Click to expand...

every mummy knows what is best for her own child, I'm sure you are doing absolutely fine :flower:


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## Button#

Ashley has always been a bad sleeper as well and last night it was really getting me down. He used to do 5-6 hours stretches followed by every 3 hours when he was about 3 months old which was fine until the 4 month sleep regression hit. We got through that at about 7.5 months and he started sleeping 5 hour stretches for about 3 weeks then we hit the 8 month sleep regression as well as the clocks changing. Now we have 1-2 hour battles at least once a night to get him back to sleep after he's woken up. 

Ashley has a good bedtime routine and I don't feed him to sleep at bedtime and he goes down awake and settles himself. He also wakes up at different times in the night so I'm pretty sure he's waking out of hunger rather than habit. He's just learned to pull himself up to standing so when I'm trying to settle him at night he's trying to climb! It's really frustrating and he won't even go to sleep when I put him in bed with me which has always been my guaranteed way of getting him to sleep. I won't do sleep training though, especially as he goes down so well at the beginning of the night, so I'm stuck until he decides to sleep better.


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## Noelle610

Button# said:


> Ashley has always been a bad sleeper as well and last night it was really getting me down. He used to do 5-6 hours stretches followed by every 3 hours when he was about 3 months old which was fine until the 4 month sleep regression hit. We got through that at about 7.5 months and he started sleeping 5 hour stretches for about 3 weeks then we hit the 8 month sleep regression as well as the clocks changing. Now we have 1-2 hour battles at least once a night to get him back to sleep after he's woken up.
> 
> Ashley has a good bedtime routine and I don't feed him to sleep at bedtime and he goes down awake and settles himself. He also wakes up at different times in the night so I'm pretty sure he's waking out of hunger rather than habit. He's just learned to pull himself up to standing so when I'm trying to settle him at night he's trying to climb! It's really frustrating and he won't even go to sleep when I put him in bed with me which has always been my guaranteed way of getting him to sleep. I won't do sleep training though, especially as he goes down so well at the beginning of the night, so I'm stuck until he decides to sleep better.

I'm sorry things started getting better for you and then you hit the second sleep regression! How unfair is that?!


----------



## Button#

Noelle610 said:


> Button# said:
> 
> 
> Ashley has always been a bad sleeper as well and last night it was really getting me down. He used to do 5-6 hours stretches followed by every 3 hours when he was about 3 months old which was fine until the 4 month sleep regression hit. We got through that at about 7.5 months and he started sleeping 5 hour stretches for about 3 weeks then we hit the 8 month sleep regression as well as the clocks changing. Now we have 1-2 hour battles at least once a night to get him back to sleep after he's woken up.
> 
> Ashley has a good bedtime routine and I don't feed him to sleep at bedtime and he goes down awake and settles himself. He also wakes up at different times in the night so I'm pretty sure he's waking out of hunger rather than habit. He's just learned to pull himself up to standing so when I'm trying to settle him at night he's trying to climb! It's really frustrating and he won't even go to sleep when I put him in bed with me which has always been my guaranteed way of getting him to sleep. I won't do sleep training though, especially as he goes down so well at the beginning of the night, so I'm stuck until he decides to sleep better.
> 
> I'm sorry things started getting better for you and then you hit the second sleep regression! How unfair is that?!Click to expand...

I've heard this one is shorter than the 4 month one but we'll see. Like you said before it helps to think longer term and it's also reassuring to hear stories from people who have come through it with secure happy children.


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## Noelle610

Button# said:


> Noelle610 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Button# said:
> 
> 
> Ashley has always been a bad sleeper as well and last night it was really getting me down. He used to do 5-6 hours stretches followed by every 3 hours when he was about 3 months old which was fine until the 4 month sleep regression hit. We got through that at about 7.5 months and he started sleeping 5 hour stretches for about 3 weeks then we hit the 8 month sleep regression as well as the clocks changing. Now we have 1-2 hour battles at least once a night to get him back to sleep after he's woken up.
> 
> Ashley has a good bedtime routine and I don't feed him to sleep at bedtime and he goes down awake and settles himself. He also wakes up at different times in the night so I'm pretty sure he's waking out of hunger rather than habit. He's just learned to pull himself up to standing so when I'm trying to settle him at night he's trying to climb! It's really frustrating and he won't even go to sleep when I put him in bed with me which has always been my guaranteed way of getting him to sleep. I won't do sleep training though, especially as he goes down so well at the beginning of the night, so I'm stuck until he decides to sleep better.
> 
> I'm sorry things started getting better for you and then you hit the second sleep regression! How unfair is that?!Click to expand...
> 
> I've heard this one is shorter than the 4 month one but we'll see. Like you said before it helps to think longer term and it's also reassuring to hear stories from people who have come through it with secure happy children.Click to expand...

Yes, I too have heard that. Hang in there mama. You're doing great.


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## bananaz

Sorry to hijack but I just have to vent. Last night was the worst ever :nope: She was up every 45 to 60 minutes all night. Each time I gave her a few minutes to settle herself but she wasn't going for it. Sometimes she wanted to eat, sometimes she wanted to be bounced, sometimes she wanted me to sing to her. Once she was crying really hard, so I picked her up and started to soothe her but she leaned toward her crib and when I set her back in it she immediately went to sleep?! I mean, WTF is going on?? I don't know how I'm going to function today.


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## Noelle610

bananaz said:


> Sorry to hijack but I just have to vent. Last night was the worst ever :nope: She was up every 45 to 60 minutes all night. Each time I gave her a few minutes to settle herself but she wasn't going for it. Sometimes she wanted to eat, sometimes she wanted to be bounced, sometimes she wanted me to sing to her. Once she was crying really hard, so I picked her up and started to soothe her but she leaned toward her crib and when I set her back in it she immediately went to sleep?! I mean, WTF is going on?? I don't know how I'm going to function today.

You can vent here anytime! How awful, you must feel like crap today.

Do you think maybe something was bothering her, like a tooth popping through? 

I find those nights very frustrating, when it seems like LO wants to sleep but just can't.


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## lysh

I am reading all of this and my anxieties are high!!! lol I am wondering, between teething, growth spurts, WWs (never heard of that before) that sleep is going to be a distant memory for a long time. It is comforting to hear you manage the best you can as a working mom with lack of sleep. I start in 2 weeks.


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## Noelle610

lysh said:


> I am reading all of this and my anxieties are high!!! lol I am wondering, between teething, growth spurts, WWs (never heard of that before) that sleep is going to be a distant memory for a long time. It is comforting to hear you manage the best you can as a working mom with lack of sleep. I start in 2 weeks.

Eek I'm sorry to make you anxious! I too feel like there's so much out there that can disrupt sleep. Scary, isn't it? Your LO might suprise you. I always dreaded my LO getting sick, thinking it would disrupt her sleep and she would be up all night like some babies. She's got quite the stuffy nose right now and she actually seems to be coping okay with it. She's not the best sleeper, but that doesn't both her. Some kids teethe really well. Just because your LO wakes frequently doesn't necessarily mean she'll be sensitive to the other things that cause night wakings. You never know.

The Wonder Weeks is book is actually pretty awesome and I highly recommend it. It really helps to understand why and when babies are extra fussy and helps to show there's a light at the end of the tunnel through each phase. They get farther apart as the baby gets older, so that's nice too.

All of that aside, we do what we have to to survive. This feels so never-ending for us now, but how many 3 year olds do you know that don't STTN on a regular basis? We will all sleep again!


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## bumpbear

My 7.5 month old has not slept more than 2 hours in a row in the last three months. From 2am she starts waking every 40mins to an hour. She used to sleep through the night 12 hours before that. I honestly don't know why it's fallen to pieces: we've tried everything 'no cry' style, but nothing works. I think we have reached the point now where we are going to attempt CC as we can't go on like this anymore. DH has called in sick to work on a couple of occasions due to sleep deprivation and his performance is slipping. I am a zombie, have cracked and spoken harshly to LO on a couple of occasions and feel like I can't be the good mum I'd like to be anymore. LO has dark circles and is constantly yawning. It will be good for all of us to get a nights sleep, so if it takes a bit of crying, so be it. I am going to use the sleep easy solutions DVD method. The DVD has been passed around my mother's group and has worked for everyone who has tried it within 3 nights. I hope it works for us too. Provided LO is well and not cutting a tooth, we start tomorrow night!


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## Noelle610

bumpbear said:


> My 7.5 month old has not slept more than 2 hours in a row in the last three months. From 2am she starts waking every 40mins to an hour. She used to sleep through the night 12 hours before that. I honestly don't know why it's fallen to pieces: we've tried everything 'no cry' style, but nothing works. I think we have reached the point now where we are going to attempt CC as we can't go on like this anymore. DH has called in sick to work on a couple of occasions due to sleep deprivation and his performance is slipping. I am a zombie, have cracked and spoken harshly to LO on a couple of occasions and feel like I can't be the good mum I'd like to be anymore. LO has dark circles and is constantly yawning. It will be good for all of us to get a nights sleep, so if it takes a bit of crying, so be it. I am going to use the sleep easy solutions DVD method. The DVD has been passed around my mother's group and has worked for everyone who has tried it within 3 nights. I hope it works for us too. Provided LO is well and not cutting a tooth, we start tomorrow night!

I'm so sorry, that sounds awful! I am not against CC by any means, if the child is of the right age and the parent is ready. Sometimes children need to be taught to self-soothe. It doesn't come naturally to all babies in my experience. Best of luck! From what I understand, consistency is key. 

I understand your need for sleep in correlation to being a good mom. I am well-rested today and I miss LO and wish I could be spending time with her even though I'm at work, since I actually have some energy! After a bad night I find myself easily irritated and counting down the hours until bedtime. I'm not as present and engaged. I just feel I could be a better parent with some consistently good sleep.


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## stephj25

Noelle610 said:


> The Wonder Weeks is book is actually pretty awesome and I highly recommend it.

I second this :thumbup:


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## Shadowy Lady

Noelle - I'm going through the same thing though my LO is younger than yours. She was one of those "magic" babies that started to sleep 7-9 hours starting 6 weeks. But 10 week hit and she regressed. I changed nothing in her routine, but she's all over the map now. Some nights she wakes up every 2 hours, some nights she sleeps 4 hours before waking up and... last night though she was up every 90 mins, I'm so friggin exhausted. I have to say that I am one of those moms who still work out though (I did boot camp today). I find the days I'm the most zombie like a workout really helps giving me energy. I definitely recommend it.

My biggest pet peeve is when some random person meets my baby for the first time and the first thing they ask is "does she sleep though?" ughhhh she's like 2.5 months old, what do you expect?? 

I know this will pass for us all. A baby will not necessarily be a better person just coz she/he sleeps through, lol!


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## Noelle610

Shadowy Lady said:


> Noelle - I'm going through the same thing though my LO is younger than yours. She was one of those "magic" babies that started to sleep 7-9 hours starting 6 weeks. But 10 week hit and she regressed. I changed nothing in her routine, but she's all over the map now. Some nights she wakes up every 2 hours, some nights she sleeps 4 hours before waking up and... last night though she was up every 90 mins, I'm so friggin exhausted. I have to say that I am one of those moms who still work out though (I did boot camp today). I find the days I'm the most zombie like a workout really helps giving me energy. I definitely recommend it.
> 
> My biggest pet peeve is when some random person meets my baby for the first time and the first thing they ask is "does she sleep though?" ughhhh she's like 2.5 months old, what do you expect??
> 
> I know this will pass for us all. A baby will not necessarily be a better person just coz she/he sleeps through, lol!

Those 90 minute nights are killer! When I would read about them before I had a baby, I thought, "How would I even cope?". But somehow, you do. 

It's great that you are working out. I really need to get back into yoga. I've found even a brisk walk in the sun really does help. You would think it would make you MORE tired, but in the end it helps to revive you. I also think it helps me sleep when she's sleep and I do suffer from a bit of postpartum insomnia unfortunately. 

You have got to love those people. I met a woman the other day with a 3 month old and I asked, "How is he doing". She said, "Great, he only gets up once at night!". I wasn't even asking about his sleeping, but I'm sure she is so used to having people inquire about it that that was her standard answer!

It sounds like your LO is a naturally good sleeper and will be once again. Being sick can really mess up their schedule for a bit. Hang in there mama!


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## aliss

Philippe woke 3x last night, at 9 days.

Honestly Noelle I gotta tell you.... as much as we mothers of bad sleepers (well, me FORMER) love to blame ourselves, I really do think we are given what we are given and there is only so much we can do.

I always blamed myself for Alex waking every 1-2 hours the first 6 months-12 months of his life and not STTN until 2 years old but tbh.... I think it was just the 'luck' of the draw?? 

I too remember wanting to throttle people whose baby woke 1-3x a night (and tbh I still do, if they don't realize how blessed they are). But then I secretly hope they learn the hard way with #2 :devil:


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## stephj25

15 days after the beginning of this wonder week - Olivia only woke up once last night!! yay! I felt a little top heavy in the morning but hey ho - it might actually be over.
Just thought I would share for those that are struggling, it won't be long for you either hopefully xxx


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## Noelle610

aliss said:


> Philippe woke 3x last night, at 9 days.
> 
> Honestly Noelle I gotta tell you.... as much as we mothers of bad sleepers (well, me FORMER) love to blame ourselves, I really do think we are given what we are given and there is only so much we can do.
> 
> I always blamed myself for Alex waking every 1-2 hours the first 6 months-12 months of his life and not STTN until 2 years old but tbh.... I think it was just the 'luck' of the draw??
> 
> I too remember wanting to throttle people whose baby woke 1-3x a night (and tbh I still do, if they don't realize how blessed they are). But then I secretly hope they learn the hard way with #2 :devil:

Wow. Aliss, you deserve this... the universe owes you! I told you the next one would be a good sleeper :haha:

I completely, 100% agree that some babies just aren't predispositioned to be "good" sleepers. It's hard not to ask, "Why me?!" sometimes.

I'm generally a pretty good-natured person, but I must admit to secretly wishing that the two moms in my baby group with kids who have STTN since 6 weeks old go through the 8 month regression or have a more difficult time with the second. It's awful, I know!!! LOL. But I hate being asked, "Oh, she's still not sleeping?" when we get together.


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## Noelle610

stephj25 said:


> 15 days after the beginning of this wonder week - Olivia only woke up once last night!! yay! I felt a little top heavy in the morning but hey ho - it might actually be over.
> Just thought I would share for those that are struggling, it won't be long for you either hopefully xxx

WOW, Steph! I really hope this is the start of the pattern. And hope you got some sleep as well. It's so hard when you're used to waking every 1-2 hours!


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## stephj25

Noelle610 said:


> stephj25 said:
> 
> 
> 15 days after the beginning of this wonder week - Olivia only woke up once last night!! yay! I felt a little top heavy in the morning but hey ho - it might actually be over.
> Just thought I would share for those that are struggling, it won't be long for you either hopefully xxx
> 
> WOW, Steph! I really hope this is the start of the pattern. And hope you got some sleep as well. It's so hard when you're used to waking every 1-2 hours!Click to expand...

I woke up at 6 and couldn't get back to sleep again, I kept checking on Olivia to make sure she was still breathing :wacko:


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## aliss

Noelle610 said:


> aliss said:
> 
> 
> Philippe woke 3x last night, at 9 days.
> 
> Honestly Noelle I gotta tell you.... as much as we mothers of bad sleepers (well, me FORMER) love to blame ourselves, I really do think we are given what we are given and there is only so much we can do.
> 
> I always blamed myself for Alex waking every 1-2 hours the first 6 months-12 months of his life and not STTN until 2 years old but tbh.... I think it was just the 'luck' of the draw??
> 
> I too remember wanting to throttle people whose baby woke 1-3x a night (and tbh I still do, if they don't realize how blessed they are). But then I secretly hope they learn the hard way with #2 :devil:
> 
> Wow. Aliss, you deserve this... the universe owes you! I told you the next one would be a good sleeper :haha:
> 
> I completely, 100% agree that some babies just aren't predispositioned to be "good" sleepers. It's hard not to ask, "Why me?!" sometimes.
> 
> I'm generally a pretty good-natured person, but I must admit to secretly wishing that the two moms in my baby group with kids who have STTN since 6 weeks old go through the 8 month regression or have a more difficult time with the second. It's awful, I know!!! LOL. But I hate being asked, "Oh, she's still not sleeping?" when we get together.Click to expand...

Haha thanks... see, it's not our faults!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And I blame reflux too for a lot of it. They never learned to associate sleep = pleasure in the beginning, right???

And please punch those bitches in the face for me...


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## anti

Aw ladies... So so glad I'm not the only one!! My LO slept through for 10 nights when she was 2 months old, and hasn't done it since! She wakes a minimum of 4 times and we went through a really bad few nights at the beginning of this wonder week where she was up every hour!! I keep telling myself this doesn't last forever and will also pass... Just hoping it happens soon! It's so nice to know other moms are going through the same thing and that I'm not alone!


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## MrsPear

Argh after me saying that the main problem with Joni is that she needs her nappy changing at least once/twice during the night and then she completely wakes up, she did not need her nappy changing AT ALL last night (which is a minor miracle) but she still woke up every hour. Haha, so much for my nappy theory. I put her to bed at 7, then at half past 7 my OH started spraying deodorant in his shoes outside her bedroom door (wtf, why?!!!) and wondered why she woke up. And so the settling-resettling cycle began!!

However, it is true that when she has her nappy changed she wakes up like it's morning each time, so at least last night she was awake but quite sleepy and there wasn't too much crying. I turned my phone off in the end because I didn't want to know what time it was. Noelle you were talking about wonder weeks and I think maybe Joni is hitting week 19 wonder week because normally if I don't have to change her nappy she sleeps a lot better. So I think I just have to ride it out. In the night time I feel really angry and depressed, but in the daytime (like now) I just think, ah it's cool, it won't last forever. I do genuinely love the fact that I never go more than about a couple of hours without a cuddle a lot of the time.

I agree with Aliss, there isn't anything can be done. People always ask if we have 'a routine' and I'm like, yeah I bath her at 6, then I put her sleepsuit on, and then I start rocking her when she looks tired about half six...but if she's not going to sleep, what can you do?! Seems madness to me that anyone would really think it made that much difference.

Anyway, as it is only lunchtime, I am still feeling upbeat and positive about it all, just don't ask me in 8 hours or so what I think about it all!


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## polaris

I had a religious bedtime routine with my first (bath, massage, lullabies) and he was a dreadful sleeper. Don't really have one with Clara and she sleeps just fine (for her age). Go figure, I guess the routine isn't a cure all for everything after all.


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## Noelle610

aliss said:


> Noelle610 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> aliss said:
> 
> 
> Philippe woke 3x last night, at 9 days.
> 
> Honestly Noelle I gotta tell you.... as much as we mothers of bad sleepers (well, me FORMER) love to blame ourselves, I really do think we are given what we are given and there is only so much we can do.
> 
> I always blamed myself for Alex waking every 1-2 hours the first 6 months-12 months of his life and not STTN until 2 years old but tbh.... I think it was just the 'luck' of the draw??
> 
> I too remember wanting to throttle people whose baby woke 1-3x a night (and tbh I still do, if they don't realize how blessed they are). But then I secretly hope they learn the hard way with #2 :devil:
> 
> Wow. Aliss, you deserve this... the universe owes you! I told you the next one would be a good sleeper :haha:
> 
> I completely, 100% agree that some babies just aren't predispositioned to be "good" sleepers. It's hard not to ask, "Why me?!" sometimes.
> 
> I'm generally a pretty good-natured person, but I must admit to secretly wishing that the two moms in my baby group with kids who have STTN since 6 weeks old go through the 8 month regression or have a more difficult time with the second. It's awful, I know!!! LOL. But I hate being asked, "Oh, she's still not sleeping?" when we get together.Click to expand...
> 
> Haha thanks... see, it's not our faults!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> And I blame reflux too for a lot of it. They never learned to associate sleep = pleasure in the beginning, right???
> 
> And please punch those bitches in the face for me...Click to expand...

Really interesting, I never thought of it that way! I supposed the reflux and associating sleep with pain certainly could be one cause of a tough time with sleep.

Haha I always try my best to be happy for women with easy babies, but it's not always easy... especially when I'm particularly tired LOL!


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## Noelle610

anti said:


> Aw ladies... So so glad I'm not the only one!! My LO slept through for 10 nights when she was 2 months old, and hasn't done it since! She wakes a minimum of 4 times and we went through a really bad few nights at the beginning of this wonder week where she was up every hour!! I keep telling myself this doesn't last forever and will also pass... Just hoping it happens soon! It's so nice to know other moms are going through the same thing and that I'm not alone!

You are most certainly not alone! "This too shall pass" is my motto these days.


----------



## Noelle610

MrsPear said:


> Argh after me saying that the main problem with Joni is that she needs her nappy changing at least once/twice during the night and then she completely wakes up, she did not need her nappy changing AT ALL last night (which is a minor miracle) but she still woke up every hour. Haha, so much for my nappy theory. I put her to bed at 7, then at half past 7 my OH started spraying deodorant in his shoes outside her bedroom door (wtf, why?!!!) and wondered why she woke up. And so the settling-resettling cycle began!!
> 
> However, it is true that when she has her nappy changed she wakes up like it's morning each time, so at least last night she was awake but quite sleepy and there wasn't too much crying. I turned my phone off in the end because I didn't want to know what time it was. Noelle you were talking about wonder weeks and I think maybe Joni is hitting week 19 wonder week because normally if I don't have to change her nappy she sleeps a lot better. So I think I just have to ride it out. In the night time I feel really angry and depressed, but in the daytime (like now) I just think, ah it's cool, it won't last forever. I do genuinely love the fact that I never go more than about a couple of hours without a cuddle a lot of the time.
> 
> I agree with Aliss, there isn't anything can be done. People always ask if we have 'a routine' and I'm like, yeah I bath her at 6, then I put her sleepsuit on, and then I start rocking her when she looks tired about half six...but if she's not going to sleep, what can you do?! Seems madness to me that anyone would really think it made that much difference.
> 
> Anyway, as it is only lunchtime, I am still feeling upbeat and positive about it all, just don't ask me in 8 hours or so what I think about it all!

The diaper change wakes up my LO too... I've had success with Pampers Baby Dry 12 Hours as recommended by the ladies on this forum! 

Don't you love being asked if you have a bedtime routine, as if it's the solution you NEVER thought of? A well-meaning mom in my baby group gave me some advice the other day... She said I should give my LO a bath and use lavander lotion and she would surely sleep through. Has it been that easy all along and I missed it???? :haha:

I totally relate to the fluctuating positive attitude. Some days I'm all, "This will pass" and "It's only temporary" and other times (particularly first thing in the morning!) I'm in tears and ready to commit myself to the psych ward!


----------



## Noelle610

Here's another tidbit you ladies may enjoy:

I went to see a couselor for my PND, much of which I think can be attributed to sleep deprivation. She suggested that my LO could "sense my stress" and that if I could only relax she would sleep through the night!!! Not sure where she got her degree...


----------



## aliss

Noelle610 said:


> Here's another tidbit you ladies may enjoy:
> 
> I went to see a couselor for my PND, much of which I think can be attributed to sleep deprivation. She suggested that my LO could "sense my stress" and that if I could only relax she would sleep through the night!!! Not sure where she got her degree...

Clown college.

I had PND for 1 year with Alex and not even the baby blues with Philippe. It's the baby. Sorry babies.... but it's you, not us.


----------



## Noelle610

aliss said:


> Noelle610 said:
> 
> 
> Here's another tidbit you ladies may enjoy:
> 
> I went to see a couselor for my PND, much of which I think can be attributed to sleep deprivation. She suggested that my LO could "sense my stress" and that if I could only relax she would sleep through the night!!! Not sure where she got her degree...
> 
> Clown college.
> 
> I had PND for 1 year with Alex and not even the baby blues with Philippe. It's the baby. Sorry babies.... but it's you, not us.Click to expand...

:haha:


----------



## katrinalorien

ugh I know this for sure... I just want to cry some days. I think a touch of PND because of Lily... wakes up every hour, on the hour, and people think I exaggerate!


----------



## Noelle610

katrinalorien said:


> ugh I know this for sure... I just want to cry some days. I think a touch of PND because of Lily... wakes up every hour, on the hour, and people think I exaggerate!

:hugs:


----------



## lisa1980

:hi: ladies,

I just wanted to say that I totally get where you're all coming from. 

My LO has been a terrible sleeper (as you know from the other sleep dep thread Noelle :thumbup:) and I honestly feel that in some ways it has ruined his first year for me. The constant tiredness plus stressing about tiredness, plus silly rows with OH in the motn over being up for the millionth time etc mean that I've spent most of his life so far in a bit of a state tbh.

I haven't officially had PND but I've been at my lowest in the past year at points...I'm normally annoyingly upbeat so it's been a shock to me. I think it's difficult to understand how much prolonged and extreme sleep deprivation can mess up your mental health unless you've been through it.

He has got a lot better in the past month or so (until ANOTHER cold messed it all up. He's regressed a fair bit :dohh:) but I'm still trying to just accept that he's probably never going to be a great sleeper, it's always going to be unpredictable. 

:hugs: ladies. One day they'll sleep.....surely?!


----------



## aliss

Oh yes the old routine thing...

What, you mean if I just did a "bath and bottle" every night at 6pm he'd sleep??

Why didn't I think of that... :rofl: I was quite blessed in that I was the colic one so my mother understands, and my aunt had a colicky one after her 1st angel baby (my cousin sttn at 5, his sister was 6 weeks) so nobody in my famiy thinks I'm exaggerating. 

OH's family is another story...


----------



## Noelle610

lisa1980 said:


> :hi: ladies,
> 
> I just wanted to say that I totally get where you're all coming from.
> 
> My LO has been a terrible sleeper (as you know from the other sleep dep thread Noelle :thumbup:) and I honestly feel that in some ways it has ruined his first year for me. The constant tiredness plus stressing about tiredness, plus silly rows with OH in the motn over being up for the millionth time etc mean that I've spent most of his life so far in a bit of a state tbh.
> 
> I haven't officially had PND but I've been at my lowest in the past year at points...I'm normally annoyingly upbeat so it's been a shock to me. I think it's difficult to understand how much prolonged and extreme sleep deprivation can mess up your mental health unless you've been through it.
> 
> He has got a lot better in the past month or so (until ANOTHER cold messed it all up. He's regressed a fair bit :dohh:) but I'm still trying to just accept that he's probably never going to be a great sleeper, it's always going to be unpredictable.
> 
> :hugs: ladies. One day they'll sleep.....surely?!

Hi Lisa! I totally understand what you mean about not necessarily enjoying the first year due to sleep deprivation. I feel the same way. DH and I always say we could handle the colic, reflux, fussiness, etc. if we were well-rested! I too am typically very positive and take things in stride, so the depression took me by suprise as well.

I'm glad to hear things have gotten better for you! Illness is always a bummer, but now you know it will improve eventually :hugs:


----------



## Noelle610

aliss said:


> Oh yes the old routine thing...
> 
> What, you mean if I just did a "bath and bottle" every night at 6pm he'd sleep??
> 
> Why didn't I think of that... :rofl: I was quite blessed in that I was the colic one so my mother understands, and my aunt had a colicky one after her 1st angel baby (my cousin sttn at 5, his sister was 6 weeks) so nobody in my famiy thinks I'm exaggerating.
> 
> OH's family is another story...

My mom totally understands as well! I was colicky and a horrible sleeper. I often call her crying in the mornings and she gives great support, but also jokes that I "gave birth to myself"! 

I'm pretty sure my co-workers think I'm exaggerating on the sleep thing! I don't think they care to hear me say "I'm tired" anymore :)


----------



## mrsbeano

Noelle, so you need to relax so that Charlie can relax? What you should do is introduce a relaxing bedtime bath routine for you! :dohh: 

Was she drinking before your session?!

I'm a firm believer in chilled out baby = chilled out Mum and *NOT* the other way around. 

I truly have no idea how you do it. I am crap on Quinn's nighttime antics let alone anything else. I'd be sending him to my Mum's for a sleepover once a week.


----------



## Noelle610

mrsbeano said:


> Noelle, so you need to relax so that Charlie can relax? What you should do is introduce a relaxing bedtime bath routine for you! :dohh:
> 
> Was she drinking before your session?!
> 
> I'm a firm believer in chilled out baby = chilled out Mum and *NOT* the other way around.
> 
> I truly have no idea how you do it. I am crap on Quinn's nighttime antics let alone anything else. I'd be sending him to my Mum's for a sleepover once a week.

:haha:

Totally agree about chill baby = chill mom! Like Aliss said, "Baby, it's not me, it's you"... LOL!

You know, I think at some point you get used to it all and kind of accept it. It doesn't make it any better, but the only way through is through.


----------



## bananaz

Noelle610 said:


> Hi Lisa! I totally understand what you mean about not necessarily enjoying the first year due to sleep deprivation. I feel the same way. *DH and I always say we could handle the colic, reflux, fussiness, etc. if we were well-rested! *I too am typically very positive and take things in stride, so the depression took me by suprise as well.

This is soooo true! When Elsie was doing her glorious 6-10 hour stretches I had so much more patience for her daytime antics. Plus it made me feel like I was actually doing something "right" with my parenting, and that made me more confident about how I handled everything else. Obviously that wasn't true since I'm still doing the exact same things and now she sleeps horribly, but it was a nice thought at the time.

I'm wondering if maybe I should just bite the bullet and try a bedtime routine? :haha:


----------



## aliss

Thank goodness for you girls, it's so nice to joke & relax with others who actually understand!


----------



## Noelle610

bananaz said:


> I'm wondering if maybe I should just bite the bullet and try a bedtime routine? :haha:

You know, you should really try some lavender lotion.... I'm sure it's the key to get that girl sleeping soundly!


----------



## Noelle610

aliss said:


> Thank goodness for you girls, it's so nice to joke & relax with others who actually understand!

You know, I get really upset about this sleep stuff, but at the end of the day I tend to default to having a sense of humor. It's the only way to survive it. I know we will all look back one day and think, "That sucked!", but our perspective will be different. I'm confident we're all raising good kids who will someday sleep. And then we will NEVER take 6 hours straight for granted again!


----------



## bananaz

Noelle610 said:


> bananaz said:
> 
> 
> I'm wondering if maybe I should just bite the bullet and try a bedtime routine? :haha:
> 
> You know, you should really try some lavender lotion.... I'm sure it's the key to get that girl sleeping soundly!Click to expand...

:rofl:

Last night I was so desperate I actually tried the rice cereal an hour before bed trick everyone kept telling me to do. It actually made a big difference! Instead of her normal 11pm waking, she got up at 9:30, 10:30 *and* 11! :dohh:


----------



## MiniKiwi

Yesterday I SHHHHed Mia in the face :( Do you ladies crack and do that or am I just awful? She actually laughed which made me feel better. It took me five hours to get her to have a 15 minute nap and I was just over it. She did roll for the first time yesterday though, from her tummy to her back, so maybe all those thoughts of rolling were keeping her awake. I hope you're all doing ok :hugs:


----------



## Noelle610

bananaz said:


> Noelle610 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bananaz said:
> 
> 
> I'm wondering if maybe I should just bite the bullet and try a bedtime routine? :haha:
> 
> You know, you should really try some lavender lotion.... I'm sure it's the key to get that girl sleeping soundly!Click to expand...
> 
> :rofl:
> 
> Last night I was so desperate I actually tried the rice cereal an hour before bed trick everyone kept telling me to do. It actually made a big difference! Instead of her normal 11pm waking, she got up at 9:30, 10:30 *and* 11! :dohh:Click to expand...

I've tried it, don't feel bad... in a bottle, which is even worse! It never helped us either and I think it actually caused more frequent wakings due to gas! :coffee:


----------



## Noelle610

MiniKiwi said:


> Yesterday I SHHHHed Mia in the face :( Do you ladies crack and do that or am I just awful? She actually laughed which made me feel better. It took me five hours to get her to have a 15 minute nap and I was just over it. She did roll for the first time yesterday though, from her tummy to her back, so maybe all those thoughts of rolling were keeping her awake. I hope you're all doing ok :hugs:

Oh, I crack. I'm pretty sure I've had a few nights of shouting in tears, "Why won't you sleep?!". I typically start the morinng after a tough night by telling Charlotte, "Mom is tired today" and she usually laughs at me too. 

Fighting for naps is the worst. It's my least favorite part of the weekend. 

I think my LO is particularly sensitive to these milestones. It's always nice to see that she's doing something new like rolling the day after a difficult night.


----------



## jessicatunnel

We tried it in a bottle too Noelle. :dohh: First off, she just absolutely hated it, second it did not help her sleep whatsoever!

Minikiwi! You are NOT awful at all! Five hours for such a short nap must have been exhausting. :hugs:


----------



## Noelle610

jessicatunnel said:


> We tried it in a bottle too Noelle. :dohh: First off, she just absolutely hated it, second it did not help her sleep whatsoever!

It's so hard! You KNOW it's probably an old wives tale, but when you are desperate you do silly things. The mom of the other infant at our daycare is constantly telling me to to give Charlotte a rice bottle because it helps her LO sleep through. I cracked and tried it! No such luck!


----------



## MiniKiwi

Noelle610 said:


> Oh, I crack. I'm pretty sure I've had a few nights of shouting in tears, "Why won't you sleep?!". I typically start the morinng after a tough night by telling Charlotte, "Mom is tired today" and she usually laughs at me too.
> 
> Fighting for naps is the worst. It's my least favorite part of the weekend.
> 
> I think my LO is particularly sensitive to these milestones. It's always nice to see that she's doing something new like rolling the day after a difficult night.

Thanks Noelle. How does Charlotte nap while you're at work? Does her minder have a lot of trouble getting her to sleep?



jessicatunnel said:


> Minikiwi! You are NOT awful at all! Five hours for such a short nap must have been exhausting. :hugs:

Thank you Jessica. I just feel like such a freak getting angry at the cutest little thing in the world. She's just so damn heavy to carry around and bounce all day :wacko:


----------



## Noelle610

MiniKiwi said:


> Noelle610 said:
> 
> 
> Oh, I crack. I'm pretty sure I've had a few nights of shouting in tears, "Why won't you sleep?!". I typically start the morinng after a tough night by telling Charlotte, "Mom is tired today" and she usually laughs at me too.
> 
> Fighting for naps is the worst. It's my least favorite part of the weekend.
> 
> I think my LO is particularly sensitive to these milestones. It's always nice to see that she's doing something new like rolling the day after a difficult night.
> 
> Thanks Noelle. How does Charlotte nap while you're at work? Does her minder have a lot of trouble getting her to sleep?
> 
> 
> 
> jessicatunnel said:
> 
> 
> Minikiwi! You are NOT awful at all! Five hours for such a short nap must have been exhausting. :hugs:Click to expand...
> 
> Thank you Jessica. I just feel like such a freak getting angry at the cutest little thing in the world. She's just so damn heavy to carry around and bounce all day :wacko:Click to expand...

Charlotte actually seems to nap pretty well when I'm at work! She has a good routine going at daycare. She is at an in-home daycare with two toddlers and another infant. Her naps were all over the map at first, but the daycare provider seems to have her on a pretty good schedule. I suspect she has more patience than I do and is more experienced with babies. She mentioned to me that she used to sit for a colicky baby and she used to do everything one-handed, so I think she's used to soothing a fussy baby. Her kids are school-aged, so I'm sure it doesn't hurt that she gets evenings off and a good night's sleep... I'm sure it makes it easier to be patient!


----------



## bananaz

MiniKiwi said:


> Yesterday I SHHHHed Mia in the face :( Do you ladies crack and do that or am I just awful? She actually laughed which made me feel better. It took me five hours to get her to have a 15 minute nap and I was just over it. She did roll for the first time yesterday though, from her tummy to her back, so maybe all those thoughts of rolling were keeping her awake. I hope you're all doing ok :hugs:

Not awful at all, I crack too. Sometimes I will shush her loudly or pick her up a little more gruffly than I should, and I always feel terrible right away. I remember when she was a newborn there were plenty of times when I sat there sobbing with her in my arms at 2am saying "Why the $&#* won't you sleep?!" I think if the worst you're doing is shushing her then you're keeping it together pretty damn well! :thumbup:


----------



## MiniKiwi

Noelle610 said:


> Charlotte actually seems to nap pretty well when I'm at work! She has a good routine going at daycare. She is at an in-home daycare with two toddlers and another infant. Her naps were all over the map at first, but the daycare provider seems to have her on a pretty good schedule. I suspect she has more patience than I do and is more experienced with babies. She mentioned to me that she used to sit for a colicky baby and she used to do everything one-handed, so I think she's used to soothing a fussy baby. Her kids are school-aged, so I'm sure it doesn't hurt that she gets evenings off and a good night's sleep... I'm sure it makes it easier to be patient!

Oh that's good, it sounds like you've found an awesome daycarer for her. I can't imagine being at a busy daycare centre with fewer carers would suit a baby who isn't too big on sleeping


----------



## Noelle610

MiniKiwi said:


> Noelle610 said:
> 
> 
> Charlotte actually seems to nap pretty well when I'm at work! She has a good routine going at daycare. She is at an in-home daycare with two toddlers and another infant. Her naps were all over the map at first, but the daycare provider seems to have her on a pretty good schedule. I suspect she has more patience than I do and is more experienced with babies. She mentioned to me that she used to sit for a colicky baby and she used to do everything one-handed, so I think she's used to soothing a fussy baby. Her kids are school-aged, so I'm sure it doesn't hurt that she gets evenings off and a good night's sleep... I'm sure it makes it easier to be patient!
> 
> Oh that's good, it sounds like you've found an awesome daycarer for her. I can't imagine being at a busy daycare centre with fewer carers would suit a baby who isn't too big on sleepingClick to expand...

I lucked out in a big way. Her daycare provider is wonderful and she REALLY loves Charlotte. I feel so grateful to have her!


----------



## MiniKiwi

bananaz said:


> MiniKiwi said:
> 
> 
> Yesterday I SHHHHed Mia in the face :( Do you ladies crack and do that or am I just awful? She actually laughed which made me feel better. It took me five hours to get her to have a 15 minute nap and I was just over it. She did roll for the first time yesterday though, from her tummy to her back, so maybe all those thoughts of rolling were keeping her awake. I hope you're all doing ok :hugs:
> 
> Not awful at all, I crack too. Sometimes I will shush her loudly or pick her up a little more gruffly than I should, and I always feel terrible right away. I remember when she was a newborn there were plenty of times when I sat there sobbing with her in my arms at 2am saying "Why the $&#* won't you sleep?!" *I think if the worst you're doing is shushing her then you're keeping it together pretty damn well!* :thumbup:Click to expand...

Haha well thank you then. I feel like a nutcase and instantly regret it. I was worse when she was a newborn, I maybe had some troubles bonding with her and blamed her for her crying etc. These days I feel sorry for her if she's screaming and want to help her. Yesterday was just ridiculous though


----------



## MiniKiwi

By the way, it's so lovely to have you ladies here. I told OH yesterday that I SHHHHHed her and he's probably the most calm man in the world and I just know he doesn't understand how I get to that point. Nice to know I'm not insane :)


----------



## MrsPear

Oh wow i know other people might think it's terrible but the air is often blue with hissed expletives in the night. 

But, it's all fine because I did bath-boobie-bed tonight so I'm not really sure what can go wrong?


----------



## Noelle610

MiniKiwi said:


> By the way, it's so lovely to have you ladies here. I told OH yesterday that I SHHHHHed her and he's probably the most calm man in the world and I just know he doesn't understand how I get to that point. Nice to know I'm not insane :)

I was just thinking the same! It's so nice to connect with women with babies the same age who are going through the same thing. As well as the ladies who have been there and can tell us it gets better!


----------



## Noelle610

MrsPear said:


> Oh wow i know other people might think it's terrible but the air is often blue with hissed expletives in the night.
> 
> But, it's all fine because I did bath-boobie-bed tonight so I'm not really sure what can go wrong?

:haha: ... I love it.


----------



## bananaz

MrsPear said:


> Oh wow i know other people might think it's terrible but the air is often blue with hissed expletives in the night.
> 
> But, it's all fine because I did bath-boobie-bed tonight so I'm not really sure what can go wrong?

:rofl: Seems like a surefire plan to me! I would probably wake your LO after 14 hours though, you want to make sure you have plenty of time for enriching daytime activities.


----------



## MrsPear

40 minutes sleep 30 minutes resetting...it's going bloody brilliant so far hahaha. Noelle where can I get lavender oil for the bath from??! X


----------



## stardust599

Haven't got time to read all the posts but I honestly think your LO's reflux is not under control and sleep training isn't the asnwer. Your LO already knows how to self-settle which means that there is something stopping her from doing so when she wakes. When she wakes in the night is the room, light, noise etc. exactly the same as when she first went down? If so I'd say it's definitely reflux! My DS knows how to self-settle and we have nights where he is comfortable and sleeps through except for a feed but other nights where the reflux is flaring and he is up every hour thrashing around, grunting or crying.

Is your LO's reflux medicated? BF or FF?


----------



## bumpbear

Omg, I've been driven to say far worse than just SHHHH! And yup, I feel terrible as soon as I say anything mean to or around her! Can't help it though. Yesterday she was up every 45 mins again even in our bed (wouldn't last longer than 10 mins in her crib). Exhausted!


----------



## Noelle610

MrsPear said:


> 40 minutes sleep 30 minutes resetting...it's going bloody brilliant so far hahaha. Noelle where can I get lavender oil for the bath from??! X

You mean you DIDN'T use the lavender oil?!!!!! Your baby will not STTN until she is 5 :haha:


----------



## lysh

bananaz said:


> MiniKiwi said:
> 
> 
> Yesterday I SHHHHed Mia in the face :( Do you ladies crack and do that or am I just awful? She actually laughed which made me feel better. It took me five hours to get her to have a 15 minute nap and I was just over it. She did roll for the first time yesterday though, from her tummy to her back, so maybe all those thoughts of rolling were keeping her awake. I hope you're all doing ok :hugs:
> 
> Not awful at all, I crack too. Sometimes I will shush her loudly or pick her up a little more gruffly than I should, and I always feel terrible right away. I remember when she was a newborn there were plenty of times when I sat there sobbing with her in my arms at 2am saying "Why the $&#* won't you sleep?!" I think if the worst you're doing is shushing her then you're keeping it together pretty damn well! :thumbup:Click to expand...

lol....me too bananaz- I felt so guilty about it! I feel better knowing I was not the only one to swear in the middle of the night to my newborn. Minikiwi- I say if the worst you have done is shush her than that is amazing!!!


----------



## Noelle610

stardust599 said:


> Haven't got time to read all the posts but I honestly think your LO's reflux is not under control and sleep training isn't the asnwer. Your LO already knows how to self-settle which means that there is something stopping her from doing so when she wakes. When she wakes in the night is the room, light, noise etc. exactly the same as when she first went down? If so I'd say it's definitely reflux! My DS knows how to self-settle and we have nights where he is comfortable and sleeps through except for a feed but other nights where the reflux is flaring and he is up every hour thrashing around, grunting or crying.
> 
> Is your LO's reflux medicated? BF or FF?

Hi Stardust, thanks for your reply. I'm no longer sleep training - it wasn't working for us and LO wasn't ready, I agree. I have to admit to being a bit desperate at the time. DH was really convinced it would work.

Yup, I agree that she does know how to self-settle! We keep lights dim, white noise on all night. We've really don't everything we can to make the conditions nice for sleeping.

Charlotte's sleep is all over the board the same way as you describe your DS - some wonderful nights and then some absolutely awful. There seems to be no rhyme or reason to it. 

We were using Zantac (raniditine) for some time, but I believe it stopped working. Her reflux seems to be getting much better recently, but she does have restless nights. We combination feed formula and breast milk, but I try to do mostly breast milk at night as it seems to settle better.

I've received conflicting information on whether solids prior to bedtime are good or bad for reflux. I'd love to hear your experience on that.


----------



## Noelle610

bumpbear said:


> Omg, I've been driven to say far worse than just SHHHH! And yup, I feel terrible as soon as I say anything mean to or around her! Can't help it though. Yesterday she was up every 45 mins again even in our bed (wouldn't last longer than 10 mins in her crib). Exhausted!

Sounds like a tough night! Hope you get some sleep soon :hugs:


----------



## stardust599

Ahhh no advice on the solids. Solids make my DS's reflux much worse but my DD thrived on solids and her reflux pretty much disappeared once she was on 3 meals a day.

Was the ranitidine adjusted for weight as your LO got bigger? Do you have a paediatrician, you could ask for at trial of omeprazole 10mg. Is your LO worse the second half of the night? Reflux often peaks from 4am-7am as this is when acid production is at it's highest to kill off any bacteria from food eaten in the evening (unfortunately no amount of playing with meal times can change this as it is genetically built in to us!) Omeprazole tablets or capsules given around 6-7pm before the last feed help immensely during the night as they are delayed release.

Other things that may help -

Probiotics (good all rounder to aid digestive)
Digestive enzymes (the body produces more acid to digest food if it doesn't have enough enzymes)
Gripe water (sodium bicarbonate based - neutralises acid)
Propping the cot up to 30degrees and keeping LO upright/vertical for 30minutes after a feed (I know how difficult this is at night, even 10-15mins would help!)
Sleeping LO on left side (keeps the valve at the top of the stomach closed so stops acid leaking out)
Earplugs (LOL - stops you hearing the grunting and thrashing around in sleep but you will still hear LO if she is upset or crying)
Dummy - sometimes keeps my LO happy for another 30mins while I snooze

Hope something helps, my DS has severe reflux and also aspirates when he swallows, he is NG tube fed and has been on every reflux medication in the book - I'm a reflux expert unfortunately haha x


----------



## MiniKiwi

bumpbear said:


> Omg, I've been driven to say far worse than just SHHHH! And yup, I feel terrible as soon as I say anything mean to or around her! Can't help it though. Yesterday she was up every 45 mins again even in our bed (wouldn't last longer than 10 mins in her crib). Exhausted!

Oh wow, I seriously thought I would be in the minority but I feel much better knowing all of you shhh and yell at your babies too :haha:

Ugh really sorry you're having such a rough time, that sounds beyond exhausting :hugs:

Even though it's obviously a big joke I'm actually going to try the lavender oil today lmao! Anything is worth a try!


----------



## Noelle610

stardust599 said:


> Ahhh no advice on the solids. Solids make my DS's reflux much worse but my DD thrived on solids and her reflux pretty much disappeared once she was on 3 meals a day.
> 
> Was the ranitidine adjusted for weight as your LO got bigger? Do you have a paediatrician, you could ask for at trial of omeprazole 10mg. Is your LO worse the second half of the night? Reflux often peaks from 4am-7am as this is when acid production is at it's highest to kill off any bacteria from food eaten in the evening (unfortunately no amount of playing with meal times can change this as it is genetically built in to us!) Omeprazole tablets or capsules given around 6-7pm before the last feed help immensely during the night as they are delayed release.
> 
> Other things that may help -
> 
> Probiotics (good all rounder to aid digestive)
> Digestive enzymes (the body produces more acid to digest food if it doesn't have enough enzymes)
> Gripe water (sodium bicarbonate based - neutralises acid)
> Propping the cot up to 30degrees and keeping LO upright/vertical for 30minutes after a feed (I know how difficult this is at night, even 10-15mins would help!)
> Sleeping LO on left side (keeps the valve at the top of the stomach closed so stops acid leaking out)
> Earplugs (LOL - stops you hearing the grunting and thrashing around in sleep but you will still hear LO if she is upset or crying)
> Dummy - sometimes keeps my LO happy for another 30mins while I snooze
> 
> Hope something helps, my DS has severe reflux and also aspirates when he swallows, he is NG tube fed and has been on every reflux medication in the book - I'm a reflux expert unfortunately haha x

Solids seem to be helping us. I know it's different for every baby, so interesting! 

My LO is in fact most difficult to settle from 3am on when we have a tough night. I didn't know reflux peaked at that time! 

We have actually just switched pediatricians and have an appointment at the end of the month, as our former ped wasn't super helpful with the reflux and hesitant with meds (which I typically appreciate, but not in our case). 

Thank you for these tips! I have heard really great things about probiotics, so perhaps we will give them a try. LO seems to sleep quite well on her side, but lately I can't keep her from rolling onto her belly... not sure if that helps or hurts yet, since it hasn't been going on long enough for me to make a call. And honestly, good call on the earplugs. One helpful tip my former pediatrician gave me was to turn down the monitor (or even turn it off). My LO's room is right accross the hall from us and I hear her every move without an amplification. She said babies - and especially those with reflux - are noisy sleepers and that if my baby needs me for a feed or change, I will know. 

I'm sorry you are such an expert on reflux. It's the worst!


----------



## MrsPear

MiniKiwi said:


> bumpbear said:
> 
> 
> Omg, I've been driven to say far worse than just SHHHH! And yup, I feel terrible as soon as I say anything mean to or around her! Can't help it though. Yesterday she was up every 45 mins again even in our bed (wouldn't last longer than 10 mins in her crib). Exhausted!
> 
> Oh wow, I seriously thought I would be in the minority but I feel much better knowing all of you shhh and yell at your babies too :haha:
> 
> Ugh really sorry you're having such a rough time, that sounds beyond exhausting :hugs:
> 
> Even though it's obviously a big joke I'm actually going to try the lavender oil today lmao! Anything is worth a try!Click to expand...

If the lavender oil is the key then let me know and I will order a lorry load. X


----------



## lysh

Noelle610 said:


> stardust599 said:
> 
> 
> Ahhh no advice on the solids. Solids make my DS's reflux much worse but my DD thrived on solids and her reflux pretty much disappeared once she was on 3 meals a day.
> 
> Was the ranitidine adjusted for weight as your LO got bigger? Do you have a paediatrician, you could ask for at trial of omeprazole 10mg. Is your LO worse the second half of the night? Reflux often peaks from 4am-7am as this is when acid production is at it's highest to kill off any bacteria from food eaten in the evening (unfortunately no amount of playing with meal times can change this as it is genetically built in to us!) Omeprazole tablets or capsules given around 6-7pm before the last feed help immensely during the night as they are delayed release.
> 
> Other things that may help -
> 
> Probiotics (good all rounder to aid digestive)
> Digestive enzymes (the body produces more acid to digest food if it doesn't have enough enzymes)
> Gripe water (sodium bicarbonate based - neutralises acid)
> Propping the cot up to 30degrees and keeping LO upright/vertical for 30minutes after a feed (I know how difficult this is at night, even 10-15mins would help!)
> Sleeping LO on left side (keeps the valve at the top of the stomach closed so stops acid leaking out)
> Earplugs (LOL - stops you hearing the grunting and thrashing around in sleep but you will still hear LO if she is upset or crying)
> Dummy - sometimes keeps my LO happy for another 30mins while I snooze
> 
> Hope something helps, my DS has severe reflux and also aspirates when he swallows, he is NG tube fed and has been on every reflux medication in the book - I'm a reflux expert unfortunately haha x
> 
> Solids seem to be helping us. I know it's different for every baby, so interesting!
> 
> My LO is in fact most difficult to settle from 3am on when we have a tough night. I didn't know reflux peaked at that time!
> 
> We have actually just switched pediatricians and have an appointment at the end of the month, as our former ped wasn't super helpful with the reflux and hesitant with meds (which I typically appreciate, but not in our case).
> 
> Thank you for these tips! I have heard really great things about probiotics, so perhaps we will give them a try. LO seems to sleep quite well on her side, but lately I can't keep her from rolling onto her belly... not sure if that helps or hurts yet, since it hasn't been going on long enough for me to make a call. And honestly, good call on the earplugs. One helpful tip my former pediatrician gave me was to turn down the monitor (or even turn it off). My LO's room is right accross the hall from us and I hear her every move without an amplification. She said babies - and especially those with reflux - are noisy sleepers and that if my baby needs me for a feed or change, I will know.
> 
> I'm sorry you are such an expert on reflux. It's the worst!Click to expand...

I am not big on meds either, but Prilosec has saved our sanity and has made LO much more comfortable!


----------



## MiniKiwi

MrsPear said:


> MiniKiwi said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bumpbear said:
> 
> 
> Omg, I've been driven to say far worse than just SHHHH! And yup, I feel terrible as soon as I say anything mean to or around her! Can't help it though. Yesterday she was up every 45 mins again even in our bed (wouldn't last longer than 10 mins in her crib). Exhausted!
> 
> Oh wow, I seriously thought I would be in the minority but I feel much better knowing all of you shhh and yell at your babies too :haha:
> 
> Ugh really sorry you're having such a rough time, that sounds beyond exhausting :hugs:
> 
> Even though it's obviously a big joke I'm actually going to try the lavender oil today lmao! Anything is worth a try!Click to expand...
> 
> If the lavender oil is the key then let me know and I will order a lorry load. XClick to expand...

Lol, SHHHHH you smartass :haha:


----------



## Noelle610

MrsPear said:


> MiniKiwi said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bumpbear said:
> 
> 
> Omg, I've been driven to say far worse than just SHHHH! And yup, I feel terrible as soon as I say anything mean to or around her! Can't help it though. Yesterday she was up every 45 mins again even in our bed (wouldn't last longer than 10 mins in her crib). Exhausted!
> 
> Oh wow, I seriously thought I would be in the minority but I feel much better knowing all of you shhh and yell at your babies too :haha:
> 
> Ugh really sorry you're having such a rough time, that sounds beyond exhausting :hugs:
> 
> Even though it's obviously a big joke I'm actually going to try the lavender oil today lmao! Anything is worth a try!Click to expand...
> 
> If the lavender oil is the key then let me know and I will order a lorry load. XClick to expand...

I completely understand the willingness to try ANYTHING! I'm a smart woman and relatively well-educated, but I still put rice in my baby's bottle hoping it would help her sleep :dohh: I probably would have dressed her in a potato sack, spun around twelve times and sprinkled salt around her crib if I thought any of it would help!


----------



## MrsPear

Noelle610 said:


> MrsPear said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MiniKiwi said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bumpbear said:
> 
> 
> Omg, I've been driven to say far worse than just SHHHH! And yup, I feel terrible as soon as I say anything mean to or around her! Can't help it though. Yesterday she was up every 45 mins again even in our bed (wouldn't last longer than 10 mins in her crib). Exhausted!
> 
> Oh wow, I seriously thought I would be in the minority but I feel much better knowing all of you shhh and yell at your babies too :haha:
> 
> Ugh really sorry you're having such a rough time, that sounds beyond exhausting :hugs:
> 
> Even though it's obviously a big joke I'm actually going to try the lavender oil today lmao! Anything is worth a try!Click to expand...
> 
> If the lavender oil is the key then let me know and I will order a lorry load. XClick to expand...
> 
> I completely understand the willingness to try ANYTHING! I'm a smart woman and relatively well-educated, but I still put rice in my baby's bottle hoping it would help her sleep :dohh: I probably would have dressed her in a potato sack, spun around twelve times and sprinkled salt around her crib if I thought any of it would help!Click to expand...

Hahaha I do know that feeling. X


----------



## x Michelle x

Can I join in as a mummy of a reformed bad sleeper... He is almost 9 months and has over the last few weeks started going 10-12 hour shifts, it's bloody amazing! He was also a reflux baby too. I thought by 3 months he'd start longer stretches, then by 6 months... I'd resigned to thinking 'surely he will by 12 months' and its just kinda fallen into place! 
We started solids at 17 weeks, was on meals by 6 months... But he was still up 3-4 times a night, drinking bottles... But he was rubbish at milk during the day, clearly cos he was having it all at night lol! We just worked thru each wake up, rocking, cuddling, a little cry sometimes. We worked at one at a time, ie, the midnight wake up but I'd feed him for the others. Once he'd stopped waking at midnight we'd tackle the 2am... And so on and so on. Nowadays he goes 6:30pm to anything between 4-6am. I always try a dummy if its before 6, but I'm not going to spend an hour getting him back to sleep so if a dummy doesn't work, I just feed him and he will go back to sleep til about 6:30/7. 
So as frustrating as it is (and j hated when people said this!) but hang in there and it will get better ladies :) 
I also have a daughter only a year older than my DS so I could never nap during the day, I was constantly on the go with one of them and exhausted... But we have cane out the other side now, little people sleep, mummy and daddy can relax and everyone is still in one piece!


----------



## Noelle610

x Michelle x said:


> Can I join in as a mummy of a reformed bad sleeper... He is almost 9 months and has over the last few weeks started going 10-12 hour shifts, it's bloody amazing! He was also a reflux baby too. I thought by 3 months he'd start longer stretches, then by 6 months... I'd resigned to thinking 'surely he will by 12 months' and its just kinda fallen into place!
> We started solids at 17 weeks, was on meals by 6 months... But he was still up 3-4 times a night, drinking bottles... But he was rubbish at milk during the day, clearly cos he was having it all at night lol! We just worked thru each wake up, rocking, cuddling, a little cry sometimes. We worked at one at a time, ie, the midnight wake up but I'd feed him for the others. Once he'd stopped waking at midnight we'd tackle the 2am... And so on and so on. Nowadays he goes 6:30pm to anything between 4-6am. I always try a dummy if its before 6, but I'm not going to spend an hour getting him back to sleep so if a dummy doesn't work, I just feed him and he will go back to sleep til about 6:30/7.
> So as frustrating as it is (and j hated when people said this!) but hang in there and it will get better ladies :)
> I also have a daughter only a year older than my DS so I could never nap during the day, I was constantly on the go with one of them and exhausted... But we have cane out the other side now, little people sleep, mummy and daddy can relax and everyone is still in one piece!

Yes, please! Us moms of insomniac babies love to hear success stories from those who have been there!

I really like the idea of focusing on one small goal at a time - certainly seems so much more managable than tackling the entire night and going right for STTN.

Glad to hear you are getting those large 10-12 hour blocks... there's hope for all of us!


----------



## Noelle610

I truly love that this thread started as a desperate rant and has now turned into support and story sharing. It's wonderful!


----------



## bananaz

x Michelle x said:


> Can I join in as a mummy of a reformed bad sleeper... He is almost 9 months and has over the last few weeks started going 10-12 hour shifts, it's bloody amazing! He was also a reflux baby too. I thought by 3 months he'd start longer stretches, then by 6 months... I'd resigned to thinking 'surely he will by 12 months' and its just kinda fallen into place!
> We started solids at 17 weeks, was on meals by 6 months... But he was still up 3-4 times a night, drinking bottles... But he was rubbish at milk during the day, clearly cos he was having it all at night lol! We just worked thru each wake up, rocking, cuddling, a little cry sometimes. We worked at one at a time, ie, the midnight wake up but I'd feed him for the others. Once he'd stopped waking at midnight we'd tackle the 2am... And so on and so on. Nowadays he goes 6:30pm to anything between 4-6am. I always try a dummy if its before 6, but I'm not going to spend an hour getting him back to sleep so if a dummy doesn't work, I just feed him and he will go back to sleep til about 6:30/7.
> So as frustrating as it is (and j hated when people said this!) but hang in there and it will get better ladies :)
> I also have a daughter only a year older than my DS so I could never nap during the day, I was constantly on the go with one of them and exhausted... But we have cane out the other side now, little people sleep, mummy and daddy can relax and everyone is still in one piece!

Thank you, that's really encouraging to hear, especially because the method you described is almost exactly the plan I have for dealing with my LO's night wakings. I can't wait until I can get rid of her 11pm wake-up and I can at least get a solid 4 or 5 hours of sleep! :wacko:


----------



## x Michelle x

Definitely focus on 1 thing at a time, I'm a big believer that some babies need to be taught to sleep, I mean you help guide them with so many other things, so why is sleep different? 
My daughter STTN from 8 weeks, I'm talking 12/14hour shifts and I naively thought Hayden would be exactly the same :rofl: 
Don't get me wrong, some nights he might wake cos he is wedged in a strange position or has lost his dummy but some nights there isn't a peep from him til 6am.. 
It was hard tho, so many nights I wanted to just feed him, but DH kept me motivated, helped out some nights and I'm grateful for him for stopping me reaching for the milk straightaway. We weren't starving him, we knew he didn't need it, his feeds during the day were suffering, we just corrected his pattern a bit :)


----------



## katrinalorien

you guys are awesome to talk to.


I'm selling magic fairy sleep sand for... a price. One oz = 1 hr of assured, uninterrupted sleep. All natural, non habit forming, safe at 2 months +. Who wants some? How much are you willing to pay for a good night's sleep?


----------



## Noelle610

katrinalorien said:


> you guys are awesome to talk to.
> 
> 
> I'm selling magic fairy sleep sand for... a price. One oz = 1 hr of assured, uninterrupted sleep. All natural, non habit forming, safe at 2 months +. Who wants some? How much are you willing to pay for a good night's sleep?

Name your price ;-)


----------



## MrsPear

katrinalorien said:


> you guys are awesome to talk to.
> 
> 
> I'm selling magic fairy sleep sand for... a price. One oz = 1 hr of assured, uninterrupted sleep. All natural, non habit forming, safe at 2 months +. Who wants some? How much are you willing to pay for a good night's sleep?

:haha:


----------



## MrsPear

Can I ask a really stupid question Noelle? When you talk about these ultra dry 12 hour nappies...but do you still have to change a dirty nappy? Because I thought you did. I leave it if it's just wet but joni loves to poo, I mean she really loves it, so should I be changing it at night when she poos? Sorry if I just sound really thick.

Last night was ok, she had 3 hours then a feed, then she pooped...then she smiled...and that's when I know the battle has begun! Had a coffee now though so I'm feeling goooood. X


----------



## MrsPear

katrinalorien said:


> you guys are awesome to talk to.
> 
> 
> I'm selling magic fairy sleep sand for... a price. One oz = 1 hr of assured, uninterrupted sleep. All natural, non habit forming, safe at 2 months +. Who wants some? How much are you willing to pay for a good night's sleep?

:haha:


----------



## Noelle610

MrsPear said:


> Can I ask a really stupid question Noelle? When you talk about these ultra dry 12 hour nappies...but do you still have to change a dirty nappy? Because I thought you did. I leave it if it's just wet but joni loves to poo, I mean she really loves it, so should I be changing it at night when she poos? Sorry if I just sound really thick.
> 
> Last night was ok, she had 3 hours then a feed, then she pooped...then she smiled...and that's when I know the battle has begun! Had a coffee now though so I'm feeling goooood. X

Not a stupid question :) Unfortunately I think you have to change a poo. My LO tends to err on the side of constipation, so it's not usually an issue for us. I will admit to hearing Charlotte fart during a feed and thinking, "Let's just pretend that was only gas" (it usually is!) :haha:


----------



## bananaz

stardust599 said:


> Haven't got time to read all the posts but I honestly think your LO's reflux is not under control and sleep training isn't the asnwer. Your LO already knows how to self-settle which means that there is something stopping her from doing so when she wakes. When she wakes in the night is the room, light, noise etc. exactly the same as when she first went down? If so I'd say it's definitely reflux! My DS knows how to self-settle and we have nights where he is comfortable and sleeps through except for a feed but other nights where the reflux is flaring and he is up every hour thrashing around, grunting or crying.
> 
> Is your LO's reflux medicated? BF or FF?


OMG I want to kiss you right now! I know your post wasn't directed at me but I think you may have been correct about my LO anyway. She hasn't been spitting up as much lately so I haven't been giving her her ranitidine very often (per the pediatrician's recommendation), but last night I gave her a full dose a half hour before bed and she slept so much better. She still woke up at 11pm (I think that's a habit at this point), but I rocked her back to sleep and then she only had one waking at 2am before being up for the day at 6am! :happydance: Please let this be because of the meds and not just a fluke...


----------



## Noelle610

bananaz said:


> stardust599 said:
> 
> 
> Haven't got time to read all the posts but I honestly think your LO's reflux is not under control and sleep training isn't the asnwer. Your LO already knows how to self-settle which means that there is something stopping her from doing so when she wakes. When she wakes in the night is the room, light, noise etc. exactly the same as when she first went down? If so I'd say it's definitely reflux! My DS knows how to self-settle and we have nights where he is comfortable and sleeps through except for a feed but other nights where the reflux is flaring and he is up every hour thrashing around, grunting or crying.
> 
> Is your LO's reflux medicated? BF or FF?
> 
> 
> OMG I want to kiss you right now! I know your post wasn't directed at me but I think you may have been correct about my LO anyway. She hasn't been spitting up as much lately so I haven't been giving her her ranitidine very often (per the pediatrician's recommendation), but last night I gave her a full dose a half hour before bed and she slept so much better. She still woke up at 11pm (I think that's a habit at this point), but I rocked her back to sleep and then she only had one waking at 2am before being up for the day at 6am! :happydance: Please let this be because of the meds and not just a fluke...Click to expand...

That is wonderful! 

If you think Elsie is waking at 11pm due to habit, you might want to try "wake to sleep". I have never tried it, but Dr. Weissbluth of "Healty Sleep Habits, Happy Child" recommends it. He's usually big on CIO, but for habitual wakings he says it can work. You basically wake her at 10:45pm and help her get back to sleep. I guess the hope is that you disrupt her rhythm of waking at 11pm? I don't know quite how it's supposed to work...


----------



## Noelle610

Our night last night was weird... 

Charlotte skipped her 3rd nap, which is always a recipe for disaster. She is extremely sensitive to being overtired. There's a new kid at daycare and he's quite loud, so the daycare provider has agreed to put her away from the other kids for this nap since she fights it. 

Anyway, when Charlotte doesn't have her 3rd nap, she's basically up from 2pm until bedtime, which is way too long for her. She will then go down super easy because she's exhausted, but wake frequently. So she went to bed without a peep at 6:30pm, but woke at 8:30pm (she put herself back to sleep before I could get to her), 10:30pm (gave her her pacifier and she drifted back off) and midnight (fed her). She then proceed to sleep until 6am! What a nice long stretch... of course, since the beginning of the night was not good I was anticipated another waking and I could not sleep from 3am on. I hate not sleeping when my child does! Darn anxiety. I just wish she could be predictable! I guess unpredictable is better than being predictably bad...


----------



## bananaz

Noelle610 said:


> That is wonderful!
> 
> If you think Elsie is waking at 11pm due to habit, you might want to try "wake to sleep". I have never tried it, but Dr. Weissbluth of "Healty Sleep Habits, Happy Child" recommends it. He's usually big on CIO, but for habitual wakings he says it can work. You basically wake her at 10:45pm and help her get back to sleep. I guess the hope is that you disrupt her rhythm of waking at 11pm? I don't know quite how it's supposed to work...

Thanks for the tip, if the 11pm wakeup continues tonight then I may be brave enough to try that tomorrow :haha:


----------



## Noelle610

bananaz said:


> Noelle610 said:
> 
> 
> That is wonderful!
> 
> If you think Elsie is waking at 11pm due to habit, you might want to try "wake to sleep". I have never tried it, but Dr. Weissbluth of "Healty Sleep Habits, Happy Child" recommends it. He's usually big on CIO, but for habitual wakings he says it can work. You basically wake her at 10:45pm and help her get back to sleep. I guess the hope is that you disrupt her rhythm of waking at 11pm? I don't know quite how it's supposed to work...
> 
> Thanks for the tip, if the 11pm wakeup continues tonight then I may be brave enough to try that tomorrow :haha:Click to expand...

I honestly cant' imagine waking a sleeping baby, but hey, I'll try anything. Here's some better info:

https://www.mybabysleepguide.com/2009/02/wake-to-sleep.html


----------



## Shadowy Lady

Noelle - hope this is the start of things looking better for you. I'm like you though I still don't sleep when my baby does...argh!!! Right now I take a Gravol when that happens. I try not to do it more than once a week though :/

Katrina - oh you're here too! I remember you from the 3rd trimester! Nice to see all the familiar faces here again.

Sofia is still all over the map with start of her sleep but once she does sleep, she's down for 4 hours, wakes up for a feed, then sleep again for 4 hours before needing her last feed of the night (typically at 1:30 am and then 5:30 am). I also believe that she's teething already :/ she's very "drooly", sucks on her hands and mind a lot too.

What I'm trying to do is to feed her more during the day so she goes back to her wonderful sleep schedule but no such luck! She keeps looking around while at the breast and smiling at me...damn it! Anyone had any luck with this method?


----------



## bananaz

Noelle610 said:


> Our night last night was weird...
> 
> Charlotte skipped her 3rd nap, which is always a recipe for disaster. She is extremely sensitive to being overtired. There's a new kid at daycare and he's quite loud, so the daycare provider has agreed to put her away from the other kids for this nap since she fights it.
> 
> Anyway, when Charlotte doesn't have her 3rd nap, she's basically up from 2pm until bedtime, which is way too long for her. She will then go down super easy because she's exhausted, but wake frequently. So she went to bed without a peep at 6:30pm, but woke at 8:30pm (she put herself back to sleep before I could get to her), 10:30pm (gave her her pacifier and she drifted back off) and midnight (fed her). She then proceed to sleep until 6am! What a nice long stretch... of course, since the beginning of the night was not good I was anticipated another waking and I could not sleep from 3am on. I hate not sleeping when my child does! Darn anxiety. I just wish she could be predictable! I guess unpredictable is better than being predictably bad...


Don't you hate that last nap of the day?? Elsie rarely misses it these days but it almost always ends up being too early or too late and bedtime is screwy as a result.

A 6 hour stretch is amazing though! Hopefully she'll keep it up and you'll be able to actually relax yourself soon.


----------



## missvikki

This happened to me and now at 8 months it still hasn't 'passed!' so I can't really offer advice :(


----------



## Noelle610

Shadowy Lady said:


> Noelle - hope this is the start of things looking better for you. I'm like you though I still don't sleep when my baby does...argh!!! Right now I take a Gravol when that happens. I try not to do it more than once a week though :/
> 
> Katrina - oh you're here too! I remember you from the 3rd trimester! Nice to see all the familiar faces here again.
> 
> Sofia is still all over the map with start of her sleep but once she does sleep, she's down for 4 hours, wakes up for a feed, then sleep again for 4 hours before needing her last feed of the night (typically at 1:30 am and then 5:30 am). I also believe that she's teething already :/ she's very "drooly", sucks on her hands and mind a lot too.
> 
> What I'm trying to do is to feed her more during the day so she goes back to her wonderful sleep schedule but no such luck! She keeps looking around while at the breast and smiling at me...damn it! Anyone had any luck with this method?

Every 4 hours isn't bad! My LO went through a period of being drooly and sucking on her hands, but it turns out she wasn't teething. No sign of it yet at almost 6 months. Either she is a) a really good teether or b) has no teeth yet. I suspect it's the later, as nothing is easy for us :)

I have tried to feed more during the day in hopes if combatting night waking, but it doesn't seem to work. After my 6 month check-up, I may gradually reduce night feeds.


----------



## Noelle610

bananaz said:


> Noelle610 said:
> 
> 
> Our night last night was weird...
> 
> Charlotte skipped her 3rd nap, which is always a recipe for disaster. She is extremely sensitive to being overtired. There's a new kid at daycare and he's quite loud, so the daycare provider has agreed to put her away from the other kids for this nap since she fights it.
> 
> Anyway, when Charlotte doesn't have her 3rd nap, she's basically up from 2pm until bedtime, which is way too long for her. She will then go down super easy because she's exhausted, but wake frequently. So she went to bed without a peep at 6:30pm, but woke at 8:30pm (she put herself back to sleep before I could get to her), 10:30pm (gave her her pacifier and she drifted back off) and midnight (fed her). She then proceed to sleep until 6am! What a nice long stretch... of course, since the beginning of the night was not good I was anticipated another waking and I could not sleep from 3am on. I hate not sleeping when my child does! Darn anxiety. I just wish she could be predictable! I guess unpredictable is better than being predictably bad...
> 
> 
> Don't you hate that last nap of the day?? Elsie rarely misses it these days but it almost always ends up being too early or too late and bedtime is screwy as a result.
> 
> A 6 hour stretch is amazing though! Hopefully she'll keep it up and you'll be able to actually relax yourself soon.Click to expand...

Yes, I hate it with a passion! I can't wait until she's old enough to drop it. UGH!

I hope she keeps it up, but my baby is nothing if not inconsistent :)


----------



## Noelle610

missvikki said:


> This happened to me and now at 8 months it still hasn't 'passed!' so I can't really offer advice :(

I'm sorry you are not getting any rest yet!


----------



## MiniKiwi

MrsPear said:


> joni loves to poo, I mean she really loves it

Hehe my name is Jonee (the same pronounciation) and I'm so immature, reading this made me giggle :haha: I've never met another Joni/Joanie in my life!

Bananaz, so great to hear you had a good night. I'm hoping for you that it wasn't a coincidence and a bit of medicine at bed time will do the trick.

Mia woke up in the night with wet clothes and a wet bed! :( I felt so bad. Today I'm going to buy her some disposables for night time. After two hours fighting her for her last nap of the day I put her in the moby to take the dog out for a walk and before she was properly in it, she was asleep :wacko: She slept for a whole hour while I walked. I'm going to do that every day instead. So much less hassle than bouncing for hours while she screams.. And I could do with a bit more exercise too :)


----------



## Noelle610

MiniKiwi said:


> MrsPear said:
> 
> 
> joni loves to poo, I mean she really loves it
> 
> Hehe my name is Jonee (the same pronounciation) and I'm so immature, reading this made me giggle :haha: I've never met another Joni/Joanie in my life!
> 
> Bananaz, so great to hear you had a good night. I'm hoping for you that it wasn't a coincidence and a bit of medicine at bed time will do the trick.
> 
> Mia woke up in the night with wet clothes and a wet bed! :( I felt so bad. Today I'm going to buy her some disposables for night time. After two hours fighting her for her last nap of the day I put her in the moby to take the dog out for a walk and before she was properly in it, she was asleep :wacko: She slept for a whole hour while I walked. I'm going to do that every day instead. So much less hassle than bouncing for hours while she screams.. And I could do with a bit more exercise too :)Click to expand...

I HATE having to change clothes/sheets in the night... unfortunately par for the course for a reflux baby! 

So glad you found a nap routine that works for you and Mia. Keep your fingers crossed that Charlotte gets that third nap today!


----------



## katrinalorien

Shadowy Lady said:


> Noelle - hope this is the start of things looking better for you. I'm like you though I still don't sleep when my baby does...argh!!! Right now I take a Gravol when that happens. I try not to do it more than once a week though :/
> 
> Katrina - oh you're here too! I remember you from the 3rd trimester! Nice to see all the familiar faces here again.
> 
> Sofia is still all over the map with start of her sleep but once she does sleep, she's down for 4 hours, wakes up for a feed, then sleep again for 4 hours before needing her last feed of the night (typically at 1:30 am and then 5:30 am). I also believe that she's teething already :/ she's very "drooly", sucks on her hands and mind a lot too.
> 
> What I'm trying to do is to feed her more during the day so she goes back to her wonderful sleep schedule but no such luck! She keeps looking around while at the breast and smiling at me...damn it! Anyone had any luck with this method?


Its so nice to see you!! I remember you from third tri too!! :D

I have found it doesn't matter either way when I feed her, more or less. That's because Lily is waking up to comfort feed though. I think maybe you could decrease the amount of time she feeds (if she's bf) or the amount of formula (through dilution or just less in the bottle). Then you know she's not waking up to feed anymore... 

But I have no idea if that trick works, I just read it in one of the 6 books on baby sleep I've read so far. 



On a REALLY happy note, today Lily has taken all of her naps (except the last half of one) in her crib!! Now one day is nothing, if only to at least START this going in the right direction...


----------



## katrinalorien

bananaz said:


> Noelle610 said:
> 
> 
> That is wonderful!
> 
> If you think Elsie is waking at 11pm due to habit, you might want to try "wake to sleep". I have never tried it, but Dr. Weissbluth of "Healty Sleep Habits, Happy Child" recommends it. He's usually big on CIO, but for habitual wakings he says it can work. You basically wake her at 10:45pm and help her get back to sleep. I guess the hope is that you disrupt her rhythm of waking at 11pm? I don't know quite how it's supposed to work...
> 
> Thanks for the tip, if the 11pm wakeup continues tonight then I may be brave enough to try that tomorrow :haha:Click to expand...

This is from the babywhisperer as well, and she has a few forums, you might be able to find some more information on there, or get any questions answered.


----------



## MrsPear

Hahaha if someone wrote that about a Harriet (my name) I would laugh too. I love the name joni but since having her I have realised how few people can pronounce it! It is not as well known as I thought.

I have got high hopes for tonight because last night she did a 3 hour stretch and I reckon she can do it again!

Good luck guys


----------



## bananaz

MrsPear said:


> Hahaha if someone wrote that about a Harriet (my name) I would laugh too. I love the name joni but since having her I have realised how few people can pronounce it! It is not as well known as I thought.
> 
> I have got high hopes for tonight because last night she did a 3 hour stretch and I reckon she can do it again!
> 
> Good luck guys


Wait, how do pronounce Joni? I was saying "Joan-ee" in my head. Is that right? Or is it like "Johnny"?


----------



## MrsPear

bananaz said:


> MrsPear said:
> 
> 
> Hahaha if someone wrote that about a Harriet (my name) I would laugh too. I love the name joni but since having her I have realised how few people can pronounce it! It is not as well known as I thought.
> 
> I have got high hopes for tonight because last night she did a 3 hour stretch and I reckon she can do it again!
> 
> Good luck guys
> 
> 
> Wait, how do pronounce Joni? I was saying "Joan-ee" in my head. Is that right? Or is it like "Johnny"?Click to expand...

Yeah like joanie. A lot of people do say jonny though x


----------



## Noelle610

Good luck MrsPear!

Charlotte missed her 3rd nap again today... My DH just put her down at around 5pm. I never know what to do at that point. Nap or bedtime? I'm just so, so tired today AND I have to work late and probably won't see LO. Yuck. Here's hoping for an okay night.


----------



## Shadowy Lady

Hope you guys all get some sleep tonight. I had noticed before that Sofia sleeps better if I spend half the day walking around with her which is what I did today. Just came back from 3 hours of shopping, lmao! Xmas sales were too tempting.

She's napped very well today (2 hours in the morning, an hour during shopping and has been asleep now for 30+ mins). Here's hoping that she'll sleep tonight. I have a long day planned for us tomorrow so I need the energy.


----------



## Noelle610

Shadowy Lady said:


> Hope you guys all get some sleep tonight. I had noticed before that Sofia sleeps better if I spend half the day walking around with her which is what I did today. Just came back from 3 hours of shopping, lmao! Xmas sales were too tempting.
> 
> She's napped very well today (2 hours in the morning, an hour during shopping and has been asleep now for 30+ mins). Here's hoping that she'll sleep tonight. I have a long day planned for us tomorrow so I need the energy.

I hope she sleeps well for you too!

Charlotte tends to sleep better whenshe has lots of stimulation between naps, too. The exception was last Saturday night. She had good naps and went swimming, but woke hourly oddly enough! And I thought swimming was supposed to help kids sleep. Only my kid :dohh:


----------



## katrinalorien

mm that is something I could definitely improve on, her stimulation between naps. I need to try this.


----------



## lysh

I was reading how many of us have either nap issues in the evening...drives me nuts! Her bedtime is usually around 7....lately she has been wanting to take a nap at 5:30! That seems early to me for bedtime. I know in Healthy Sleep Habits, Dr. W says some kids need an early bedtime, but that would be hard for us to pull off. 

Working mamas, how do you do it???? lol I am dreading it.....every night I pray she will go longer between feeds. The downside to BFing is the lack of assistance I can get at night- and currently she is being finicky with bottles and at times will even refuse them.


----------



## Boo44

Girls is this normal - lying awake even when LO is asleep?

When he was a newborn I was like this and couldn't switch off as I knew he'd be up for feeds. I am a light sleeper and found it tough. At 11weeks he sttn after dream feeding and slowly it got better like I could relax a bit more and sleep through. Since we've been regressing its the inconsistency that really gets to me! Like earlier this week he slept 7.30pm until 7.30am no wake ups! But more often he's been fussy on and off from 4.30 or 5 until I get him up. Because I never know what it will be I tend to wake constant myself too. Last night I was awake every hour!! (LO was asleep). Granted I'm staying at my mum's in a single bed so that prob didn't help....

Just wanting to know I'm normal and there's not something wrong going on...


----------



## Noelle610

lysh said:


> Working mamas, how do you do it???? lol I am dreading it.....every night I pray she will go longer between feeds. The downside to BFing is the lack of assistance I can get at night- and currently she is being finicky with bottles and at times will even refuse them.

I was soo worried about work, but it turns out that going to work on a regular basis is often easier than caring for a baby all day long. Go figure! At least MY baby :dohh:


----------



## Noelle610

Boo44 said:


> Girls is this normal - lying awake even when LO is asleep?
> 
> When he was a newborn I was like this and couldn't switch off as I knew he'd be up for feeds. I am a light sleeper and found it tough. At 11weeks he sttn after dream feeding and slowly it got better like I could relax a bit more and sleep through. Since we've been regressing its the inconsistency that really gets to me! Like earlier this week he slept 7.30pm until 7.30am no wake ups! But more often he's been fussy on and off from 4.30 or 5 until I get him up. Because I never know what it will be I tend to wake constant myself too. Last night I was awake every hour!! (LO was asleep). Granted I'm staying at my mum's in a single bed so that prob didn't help....
> 
> Just wanting to know I'm normal and there's not something wrong going on...

Every time I see your avatar, it makes me smile... Jack is just so freakin cute!

I think what you are experiencing is quite normal, especially considering since sleep is inconsistant. If you do an internet search for "postpartum insomnia", you will find quite a bit of information. I think it's partially hormonal, but it's also psychological -- if you're not sure how long you will be able to sleep, it's tough to really relax. I totally smpathize and wish I had an answer for you! My husband doesn't understand how I can lay in bed from 7:30pm until 5:30 am and only sleep for four hours or so (my LO isn't the best sleeper, but she's not up THAT much). I've totally had those nights where I'm up hourly when she's only waking once or twice, usually following a really bad night and I'm on edge.

I have been told by other moms that this goes away, but I'm almost 6 months in and I haven't had that experience. Obviously at some point we'll be able to sleep the night again, but for me I think it might take awhile.


----------



## Noelle610

For the past month my LO has been waking just a few hours after bedtime - anywhere between 8pm and 10pm. This is KILLING me. I usually don't feed and just try to soothe her back to sleep,b ut I find it very confusing as to why she's doing it. I think that is my "least favorite" waking. It's frustrating because she used to sleep 7pm to 3am or 4am. And even when she woke earlier, it was closer to midnight.

I hate to compare, but even my friends with babies that don't sleep well generally give them a 5 or 6 hour stretch at the beginning of the night. I'd really like to try and eliminate this waking. Like I've said before, I'm not even interested in STTN at this point, just some progress instead of backsliding. Any tips?


----------



## mrsbeano

Noelle610 said:


> For the past month my LO has been waking just a few hours after bedtime - anywhere between 8pm and 10pm. This is KILLING me. I usually don't feed and just try to soothe her back to sleep,b ut I find it very confusing as to why she's doing it. I think that is my "least favorite" waking. It's frustrating because she used to sleep 7pm to 3am or 4am. And even when she woke earlier, it was closer to midnight.
> 
> I hate to compare, but even my friends with babies that don't sleep well generally give them a 5 or 6 hour stretch at the beginning of the night. I'd really like to try and eliminate this waking. Like I've said before, I'm not even interested in STTN at this point, just some progress instead of backsliding. Any tips?

Does she settle herself at the beginning of the night? If she can, I would guess that somethng is bothering her like her teeth. If Quinn does that and will take a bottle I feed him in the hope that he won't want food in the night. If he wakes up twice in the evening then I would give him some calpol and teething powder x


----------



## polaris

Could she need a burp? This is sometimes the reason why Clara wakes earlier than usual. I think babies are all just different. My son was a terrible sleeper but at Clara's age he was doing a long stretch at the start of the evening, e.g. 8.30 p.m. to 1.30 a.m. Clara is a good sleeper but she doesn't do a long stretch of sleep at all, she goes to sleep at 6.30/7 and then wakes every three hours pretty much on the dot throughout the night until 6.30/7 the next morning. Also sleep does tend to go backwards and forwards. Thomas slept quite well from 5 months to 6 months before going through a big regression and waking up all the time again.

Re insomnia - I never got back to sleeping as well as I did before having a child, even when my son was reliably sleeping through for a year. I would still usually wake up briefly several times through the night and would not always get back to sleep quickly. Now I have a newborn again but I don't really feel like my sleep is that much more disturbed than before I had her!


----------



## MrsPear

mrsbeano said:


> Noelle610 said:
> 
> 
> For the past month my LO has been waking just a few hours after bedtime - anywhere between 8pm and 10pm. This is KILLING me. I usually don't feed and just try to soothe her back to sleep,b ut I find it very confusing as to why she's doing it. I think that is my "least favorite" waking. It's frustrating because she used to sleep 7pm to 3am or 4am. And even when she woke earlier, it was closer to midnight.
> 
> I hate to compare, but even my friends with babies that don't sleep well generally give them a 5 or 6 hour stretch at the beginning of the night. I'd really like to try and eliminate this waking. Like I've said before, I'm not even interested in STTN at this point, just some progress instead of backsliding. Any tips?
> 
> Does she settle herself at the beginning of the night? If she can, I would guess that somethng is bothering her like her teeth. If Quinn does that and will take a bottle I feed him in the hope that he won't want food in the night. If he wakes up twice in the evening then I would give him some calpol and teething powder xClick to expand...

Joni is the same. I put her to bed, normally feed her once, twice, three times before I go to bed. So far I don't have a resolution (sorry). But she doesn't always do it- she can sleep from 7ish to 10ish when I always feed her before I go to bed. So I wonder if it might be teething related? As it comes and goes like I've heard teething pain does. Hope it goes away for you soon xx


----------



## anti

Ashlynn does the same thing!! Goes to bed between 6 and 7. Depending on her last nap and always wake at 10 for a feed, then usually 2 and 5 and 7 before getting up at 8. Last night she was up from 1:30-3 laughing and smiling like something was funny... Nothing is funny at that hour in the morning!! The night before she did that from 9:30-10:30... Not sure what's up with that?!


----------



## bananaz

Noelle610 said:


> I think what you are experiencing is quite normal, especially considering since sleep is inconsistant. If you do an internet search for "postpartum insomnia", you will find quite a bit of information. I think it's partially hormonal, but it's also psychological -- if you're not sure how long you will be able to sleep, it's tough to really relax. I totally smpathize and wish I had an answer for you! My husband doesn't understand how I can lay in bed from 7:30pm until 5:30 am and only sleep for four hours or so (my LO isn't the best sleeper, but she's not up THAT much). I've totally had those nights where I'm up hourly when she's only waking once or twice, usually following a really bad night and I'm on edge.
> 
> I have been told by other moms that this goes away, but I'm almost 6 months in and I haven't had that experience. Obviously at some point we'll be able to sleep the night again, but for me I think it might take awhile.

When my LO was a slightly more reliable sleeper and would have a stretch of at least 5 hours at the beginning of the night, I would take some melatonin or a half dose of Benadryl after I put her down so that I would actually get some sleep too. It was really helpful for me. But of course now she might be up in just a couple of hours so I would rather not be groggy trying to put her back down :wacko:

She had another good night though (by recent standards, anyway). Bedtime was a little drawn out because she didn't want to nurse down but she quietly self-settled around 8:20 then only woke at 1:30 and 4 to nurse before being up for the day at 6. If this pattern continues I think I'm going to work on gradually shortening that first feed in the hopes of helping it get pushed back again, but I'm probably getting ahead of myself...


----------



## Leids

You're not alone. :( My once amazing sleeper (from 10 weeks up until about 5 months) has gone back to being a horrible sleeper. I guess at least I got a few months of nice nights. I thought maybe it was just a random thing that would get better within a week, well, it's been like this for almost a month and I'm exhausted 24/7. I have so much trouble getting out of bed in the morning because I'm so tired. I have persistent headaches that hurt really bad right behind my eyes. I don't know what to do. :(

He wakes up about every 2 hours, sometimes every hour. I have my wireless keyboard on the bed (laptop hooked up to my tv, ultimate lazy setup here). He wakes up and plays with the keyboard, or he hits me, he flails around, punches, grabs, claws. When I'm dead tired it takes a lot to be patient with this! I thought going back to bed sharing would help him sleep, but instead I'm a huge punching bag. 

I know he's teething, and he's trying to learn how to crawl, but I'm just ready for this to end. :( It's a mixture of wonder weeks, teething, and sleep regression, and it's so awful. I've debated doing sleep training myself, but I know that he can't help the teething pain, so I just cuddle. He's awful to deal with during the day now too, I have to carry him all day and if I put him down he gets really fussy. He's just not as happy as he used to be, and I miss it. :(

In order to get him to nap, he has to nurse through all of it. So I get a baby attached to my boob for 2 hours at a pop sometimes during the day. I can't get anything done, and I have finals coming up. My DH works 70 hour weeks so I can't wait for him to watch the baby. I'm going out of my mind!

Last night to prove to my DH that he's been waking up a lot and to show why I'm so exhausted, I took a couple of videos. You may even hear DH somehow snoring through it. :dohh: The first one is dark, he had gotten ahold of the keyboard when he woke up and started playing with it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4toE_xK7snc&feature=youtu.be

This second one I used the flash. You can see him flailing and hitting me, and you can see dark circles under his eyes. Clearly he's very tired!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijCxJ-QSNa8&feature=youtu.be

I just want one day where I do nothing but sleep. William will drink out of a shot glass (I'm awful I know) but nothing else, tempting to give DH some pumped milk and a shot glass and hand him the baby when he has off for the holiday next week. :sleep: Mommy needs sleep!


----------



## katrinalorien

uuugh another bad-ish night. Let her self settle for about 2 min, then she woke 45 min later. Let her resettle, but then woke 30 min later. After that I was done and took her to bed with me. I have found if she's with me in bed, the only reason she can't self settle is from a wet diaper. 

But then she peed so much last night it leaked all over our bed (luckily I have a waterproof thing over our mattress!)

I just don't get it, why after 45 min, then 30 min? I think I partially understand her 45 min wakings, its like one sleep cycle. But 30 min isn't even a complete sleep cycle. 

Arrrrrrgggghhhh


----------



## Noelle610

mrsbeano said:


> Noelle610 said:
> 
> 
> For the past month my LO has been waking just a few hours after bedtime - anywhere between 8pm and 10pm. This is KILLING me. I usually don't feed and just try to soothe her back to sleep,b ut I find it very confusing as to why she's doing it. I think that is my "least favorite" waking. It's frustrating because she used to sleep 7pm to 3am or 4am. And even when she woke earlier, it was closer to midnight.
> 
> I hate to compare, but even my friends with babies that don't sleep well generally give them a 5 or 6 hour stretch at the beginning of the night. I'd really like to try and eliminate this waking. Like I've said before, I'm not even interested in STTN at this point, just some progress instead of backsliding. Any tips?
> 
> Does she settle herself at the beginning of the night? If she can, I would guess that somethng is bothering her like her teeth. If Quinn does that and will take a bottle I feed him in the hope that he won't want food in the night. If he wakes up twice in the evening then I would give him some calpol and teething powder xClick to expand...

She does, that's the crazy thing! I can put her to bed awake and she'll happily chat to herself until she falls asleep. 

I think the PP mentioning her reflux may be on to something. We go back to the doctor after Thanksgiving (which is next week), so here's hoping we can work on a plan.

I also wonder if teething is an issue. She kept spitting out her pacifier last night, which is unusual for her. I am going to try some tylenol tonight (basically our version of calpol).


----------



## Noelle610

polaris said:


> Could she need a burp? This is sometimes the reason why Clara wakes earlier than usual. I think babies are all just different. My son was a terrible sleeper but at Clara's age he was doing a long stretch at the start of the evening, e.g. 8.30 p.m. to 1.30 a.m. Clara is a good sleeper but she doesn't do a long stretch of sleep at all, she goes to sleep at 6.30/7 and then wakes every three hours pretty much on the dot throughout the night until 6.30/7 the next morning. Also sleep does tend to go backwards and forwards. Thomas slept quite well from 5 months to 6 months before going through a big regression and waking up all the time again.
> 
> Re insomnia - I never got back to sleeping as well as I did before having a child, even when my son was reliably sleeping through for a year. I would still usually wake up briefly several times through the night and would not always get back to sleep quickly. Now I have a newborn again but I don't really feel like my sleep is that much more disturbed than before I had her!

You know, I don't think so... but I'll try to burp her better tonight and see! 

My mom says the same. You NEVER sleep the way you did before having a kid, though it does even out a little bit more. Perhaps that's your body's way of preparing you for the next child?!


----------



## Noelle610

anti said:


> Ashlynn does the same thing!! Goes to bed between 6 and 7. Depending on her last nap and always wake at 10 for a feed, then usually 2 and 5 and 7 before getting up at 8. Last night she was up from 1:30-3 laughing and smiling like something was funny... Nothing is funny at that hour in the morning!! The night before she did that from 9:30-10:30... Not sure what's up with that?!

Her pattern sounds similar to Charlotte's. We sometimes get that weird wide-awake thing during the night, too! If she's not unhappy, I just leave her to it and she typically settles herself after looking at her mobile for a bit. Not sure why she can't self-settle at other times during the night!


----------



## Noelle610

bananaz said:


> Noelle610 said:
> 
> 
> I think what you are experiencing is quite normal, especially considering since sleep is inconsistant. If you do an internet search for "postpartum insomnia", you will find quite a bit of information. I think it's partially hormonal, but it's also psychological -- if you're not sure how long you will be able to sleep, it's tough to really relax. I totally smpathize and wish I had an answer for you! My husband doesn't understand how I can lay in bed from 7:30pm until 5:30 am and only sleep for four hours or so (my LO isn't the best sleeper, but she's not up THAT much). I've totally had those nights where I'm up hourly when she's only waking once or twice, usually following a really bad night and I'm on edge.
> 
> I have been told by other moms that this goes away, but I'm almost 6 months in and I haven't had that experience. Obviously at some point we'll be able to sleep the night again, but for me I think it might take awhile.
> 
> When my LO was a slightly more reliable sleeper and would have a stretch of at least 5 hours at the beginning of the night, I would take some melatonin or a half dose of Benadryl after I put her down so that I would actually get some sleep too. It was really helpful for me. But of course now she might be up in just a couple of hours so I would rather not be groggy trying to put her back down :wacko:
> 
> She had another good night though (by recent standards, anyway). Bedtime was a little drawn out because she didn't want to nurse down but she quietly self-settled around 8:20 then only woke at 1:30 and 4 to nurse before being up for the day at 6. If this pattern continues I think I'm going to work on gradually shortening that first feed in the hopes of helping it get pushed back again, but I'm probably getting ahead of myself...Click to expand...

How do you feel about taking melatonin when breastfeeding? I like it because it doesn't make me so groggy I couldn't wake up. My bottle says not to take when pregnant or nursing, but it's natural and I wonder if that's a bit of an unnecessary precaution? If you've taken it without issue I may do so tonight!

Glad you had a good night... here's hoping it continues!


----------



## MiniKiwi

I have the same problem with sleeping now. Even when LO's asleep, I wake up in the night. This morning I need a boatload of coffee :coffee: I had to bounce her back to sleep after she woke up at 5am and by 7 when she went back to sleep I had to get up cause I couldn't go back to sleep


----------



## Noelle610

Leids said:


> You're not alone. :( My once amazing sleeper (from 10 weeks up until about 5 months) has gone back to being a horrible sleeper. I guess at least I got a few months of nice nights. I thought maybe it was just a random thing that would get better within a week, well, it's been like this for almost a month and I'm exhausted 24/7. I have so much trouble getting out of bed in the morning because I'm so tired. I have persistent headaches that hurt really bad right behind my eyes. I don't know what to do. :(
> 
> He wakes up about every 2 hours, sometimes every hour. I have my wireless keyboard on the bed (laptop hooked up to my tv, ultimate lazy setup here). He wakes up and plays with the keyboard, or he hits me, he flails around, punches, grabs, claws. When I'm dead tired it takes a lot to be patient with this! I thought going back to bed sharing would help him sleep, but instead I'm a huge punching bag.
> 
> I know he's teething, and he's trying to learn how to crawl, but I'm just ready for this to end. :( It's a mixture of wonder weeks, teething, and sleep regression, and it's so awful. I've debated doing sleep training myself, but I know that he can't help the teething pain, so I just cuddle. He's awful to deal with during the day now too, I have to carry him all day and if I put him down he gets really fussy. He's just not as happy as he used to be, and I miss it. :(
> 
> In order to get him to nap, he has to nurse through all of it. So I get a baby attached to my boob for 2 hours at a pop sometimes during the day. I can't get anything done, and I have finals coming up. My DH works 70 hour weeks so I can't wait for him to watch the baby. I'm going out of my mind!
> 
> Last night to prove to my DH that he's been waking up a lot and to show why I'm so exhausted, I took a couple of videos. You may even hear DH somehow snoring through it. :dohh: The first one is dark, he had gotten ahold of the keyboard when he woke up and started playing with it.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4toE_xK7snc&feature=youtu.be
> 
> This second one I used the flash. You can see him flailing and hitting me, and you can see dark circles under his eyes. Clearly he's very tired!
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijCxJ-QSNa8&feature=youtu.be
> 
> I just want one day where I do nothing but sleep. William will drink out of a shot glass (I'm awful I know) but nothing else, tempting to give DH some pumped milk and a shot glass and hand him the baby when he has off for the holiday next week. :sleep: Mommy needs sleep!

Hi Leids! Sorry you're in this club, too. I know your little man was sleeping so well! The "sleep coach" I spoke with recently mentioned that months 4 and 5 are really tough for sleep, even for babies that slept well prior to this time. Like you said, it's just everything! One big developmental leap, teething, you name it. It's so hard to see the light at the end of the tunnel sometimes, isn't? It is hard to enjoy being a mom when you are SO tired, your baby is SO fussy and you know you would both be happier if sleep would just happen.

Your little man certainly is cute! I suspect Charlotte would react in a similar way if we were bedsharing, bashing me all the time! Do you think your LO might do better in his own space? 

I would totally give your DH night duty while he isn't working. We are about to go to Texas for Thanksgiving and I'm always hesitant to let my DH's parents help, but they put it to me like this: They KNOW they can sleep when we leave, so why not let them help? It's us moms who have to deal with this without knowing it will end!


----------



## Noelle610

katrinalorien said:


> uuugh another bad-ish night. Let her self settle for about 2 min, then she woke 45 min later. Let her resettle, but then woke 30 min later. After that I was done and took her to bed with me. I have found if she's with me in bed, the only reason she can't self settle is from a wet diaper.
> 
> But then she peed so much last night it leaked all over our bed (luckily I have a waterproof thing over our mattress!)
> 
> I just don't get it, why after 45 min, then 30 min? I think I partially understand her 45 min wakings, its like one sleep cycle. But 30 min isn't even a complete sleep cycle.
> 
> Arrrrrrgggghhhh

So sorry you had a bad night :( Have you tried overnight diapers? Pampers Baby Dry 12 Hours are working well for us!


----------



## Noelle610

MiniKiwi said:


> I have the same problem with sleeping now. Even when LO's asleep, I wake up in the night. This morning I need a boatload of coffee :coffee: I had to bounce her back to sleep after she woke up at 5am and by 7 when she went back to sleep I had to get up cause I couldn't go back to sleep

It's a viscious cycle, UGH!


----------



## MiniKiwi

Hehe Leids, he is just so cute! Mia is so violent these days as well! She hates cuddles and is constantly pinching and hitting me. When do they start being all cuddly and kissy? I can't wait for that!


----------



## katrinalorien

Noelle610 said:


> anti said:
> 
> 
> Ashlynn does the same thing!! Goes to bed between 6 and 7. Depending on her last nap and always wake at 10 for a feed, then usually 2 and 5 and 7 before getting up at 8. Last night she was up from 1:30-3 laughing and smiling like something was funny... Nothing is funny at that hour in the morning!! The night before she did that from 9:30-10:30... Not sure what's up with that?!
> 
> Her pattern sounds similar to Charlotte's. We sometimes get that weird wide-awake thing during the night, too! If she's not unhappy, I just leave her to it and she typically settles herself after looking at her mobile for a bit. Not sure why she can't self-settle at other times during the night!Click to expand...

Hmm although I've never had this sort of trouble, Ferber talks about it in his book. His solution was to move the bedtime forward, like maybe you have too early of a bedtime? I don't know, sometimes the advice is really mixed. Dr. W. would have a fit if someone suggested a later bedtime, but I think Ferber thinks it can be a solution sometimes.


----------



## polaris

katrinalorien said:


> Noelle610 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> anti said:
> 
> 
> Ashlynn does the same thing!! Goes to bed between 6 and 7. Depending on her last nap and always wake at 10 for a feed, then usually 2 and 5 and 7 before getting up at 8. Last night she was up from 1:30-3 laughing and smiling like something was funny... Nothing is funny at that hour in the morning!! The night before she did that from 9:30-10:30... Not sure what's up with that?!
> 
> Her pattern sounds similar to Charlotte's. We sometimes get that weird wide-awake thing during the night, too! If she's not unhappy, I just leave her to it and she typically settles herself after looking at her mobile for a bit. Not sure why she can't self-settle at other times during the night!Click to expand...
> 
> Hmm although I've never had this sort of trouble, Ferber talks about it in his book. His solution was to move the bedtime forward, like maybe you have too early of a bedtime? I don't know, sometimes the advice is really mixed. Dr. W. would have a fit if someone suggested a later bedtime, but I think Ferber thinks it can be a solution sometimes.Click to expand...

LOL yeah even the sleep "experts" don't agree.


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## Noelle610

polaris said:


> katrinalorien said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Noelle610 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> anti said:
> 
> 
> Ashlynn does the same thing!! Goes to bed between 6 and 7. Depending on her last nap and always wake at 10 for a feed, then usually 2 and 5 and 7 before getting up at 8. Last night she was up from 1:30-3 laughing and smiling like something was funny... Nothing is funny at that hour in the morning!! The night before she did that from 9:30-10:30... Not sure what's up with that?!
> 
> Her pattern sounds similar to Charlotte's. We sometimes get that weird wide-awake thing during the night, too! If she's not unhappy, I just leave her to it and she typically settles herself after looking at her mobile for a bit. Not sure why she can't self-settle at other times during the night!Click to expand...
> 
> Hmm although I've never had this sort of trouble, Ferber talks about it in his book. His solution was to move the bedtime forward, like maybe you have too early of a bedtime? I don't know, sometimes the advice is really mixed. Dr. W. would have a fit if someone suggested a later bedtime, but I think Ferber thinks it can be a solution sometimes.Click to expand...
> 
> LOL yeah even the sleep "experts" don't agree.Click to expand...

You know, I really don't think her bedtime is too early. The one time she was truly "awake" for some time at night was actually when we put her to bed late - we tried moving her bedtime back a bit to adjust her for daylight savings time. My LO is very sensitive to being overtired and actually wakes less when she naps more/goes to bed early. 

I respect Ferber on many issues, but I think his overall estimations of how much sleep infants need are too low. I tend to think Weissbluth is a bit more in tune with the current research in that area, at least from what I've observed with my daughter :)


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## polaris

Noelle610 said:


> polaris said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> katrinalorien said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Noelle610 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> anti said:
> 
> 
> Ashlynn does the same thing!! Goes to bed between 6 and 7. Depending on her last nap and always wake at 10 for a feed, then usually 2 and 5 and 7 before getting up at 8. Last night she was up from 1:30-3 laughing and smiling like something was funny... Nothing is funny at that hour in the morning!! The night before she did that from 9:30-10:30... Not sure what's up with that?!
> 
> Her pattern sounds similar to Charlotte's. We sometimes get that weird wide-awake thing during the night, too! If she's not unhappy, I just leave her to it and she typically settles herself after looking at her mobile for a bit. Not sure why she can't self-settle at other times during the night!Click to expand...
> 
> Hmm although I've never had this sort of trouble, Ferber talks about it in his book. His solution was to move the bedtime forward, like maybe you have too early of a bedtime? I don't know, sometimes the advice is really mixed. Dr. W. would have a fit if someone suggested a later bedtime, but I think Ferber thinks it can be a solution sometimes.Click to expand...
> 
> LOL yeah even the sleep "experts" don't agree.Click to expand...
> 
> You know, I really don't think her bedtime is too early. The one time she was truly "awake" for some time at night was actually when we put her to bed late - we tried moving her bedtime back a bit to adjust her for daylight savings time. My LO is very sensitive to being overtired and actually wakes less when she naps more/goes to bed early.
> 
> I respect Ferber on many issues, but I think his overall estimations of how much sleep infants need are too low. I tend to think Weissbluth is a bit more in tune with the current research in that area, at least from what I've observed with my daughter :)Click to expand...

I would agree with this, Weissbluth has been on the button with regard to my son in relation to daily sleep needs, when to drop naps, etc. The earlier bedtimes always worked well for us. Incidentally Weissbluth does acknowledge that for toddlers/preschoolers you might need to cautiously try a later bedtime in some circumstances - but only if the earlier bedtime has failed!


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## katrinalorien

There ya go. I've yet to have this issue... and I agree that Weissbluth's research has been spot on for mine as well. It was so strange to read Ferber's book and have it be so low. Her daily nap needs and when she has organized her first nap has been spot on. Maybe its because Dr. W's research seems to be more widebased and Ferber's advice is more based on what he's encountered at his sleep clinic.


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## Noelle610

I'm still interested to read Ferber's book. I hear he has some gentle techniques for night weaning!


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## Shadowy Lady

Noelle610 said:


> I'm still interested to read Ferber's book. I hear he has some gentle techniques for night weaning!

I bought Ferber's book and will start reading this weekend. I really hope it helps. My insomnia is really peaking and I'm incredibly miserable. Only slept 2 hours last night :wacko:


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## lysh

I read both Weissbluth's and Ferber's books. I felt more well-rounded with information after reading both! LO had her 4 month check-up and the doc gave me the okay to try to spread out feedings a bit during the night. I am not night weaning as she is too young, but I also do not need to feed her every 2 hours. Last night she truly ate during one of the feedings- the other two feedings she sipped at. So if I can consolidate them a bit so she is actually eating rather than snacking, that would be great!!! 

However, like everything else, spacing feedings will be easier said than done!!!!

I wish you all better sleep tonight.


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## aliss

My boy's been really gassy the past 2 days :( God help me if I end up with another colicky one


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## katrinalorien

aliss said:


> My boy's been really gassy the past 2 days :( God help me if I end up with another colicky one

Oh aliss I hope not... sending you sleepy, non-colicky dust


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## anti

Ashlynn is doing it again!! Up at 4 this time singing, smiling and laughing!! I refuse to pick her up though or bring her into bed with us. She has to learn to sleep properly and in her own bed!! Argh!


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## bananaz

Noelle610 said:


> How do you feel about taking melatonin when breastfeeding? I like it because it doesn't make me so groggy I couldn't wake up. My bottle says not to take when pregnant or nursing, but it's natural and I wonder if that's a bit of an unnecessary precaution? If you've taken it without issue I may do so tonight!
> 
> Glad you had a good night... here's hoping it continues!

LO's pediatrician said the melatonin is fine. I just take the minimum dose and it never seems to have any effect on her. I think they have to put those warnings on anything that hasn't been extensively tested (which is the case with most drugs, for obvious reasons)


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## Noelle610

aliss said:


> My boy's been really gassy the past 2 days :( God help me if I end up with another colicky one

Nooooooo Aliss! I truly hope this is just a phase for Philippe. 

Even if he does have colic, he could still be an angel baby in the long run. A friend of mine has an adorable little boy who had colic for the first 3 months of his life. Oddly enough, he was a great sleeper! She thinks he tired himself out during the day and crashed at night. He's now 6 months and the happiest, sweetest thing. We take swim lessons together :)


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## Noelle610

anti said:


> Ashlynn is doing it again!! Up at 4 this time singing, smiling and laughing!! I refuse to pick her up though or bring her into bed with us. She has to learn to sleep properly and in her own bed!! Argh!

I think you're doing the right thing. If she's content just let her be (and shut off the monitor so you can sleep, if you're comfortable). 

Weissbluth actually says that if your child wakes to play, you're doing something right! It means she's bonded with you and she knows mommy is fun.


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## Noelle610

bananaz said:


> Noelle610 said:
> 
> 
> How do you feel about taking melatonin when breastfeeding? I like it because it doesn't make me so groggy I couldn't wake up. My bottle says not to take when pregnant or nursing, but it's natural and I wonder if that's a bit of an unnecessary precaution? If you've taken it without issue I may do so tonight!
> 
> Glad you had a good night... here's hoping it continues!
> 
> LO's pediatrician said the melatonin is fine. I just take the minimum dose and it never seems to have any effect on her. I think they have to put those warnings on anything that hasn't been extensively tested (which is the case with most drugs, for obvious reasons)Click to expand...

Thanks! Honestly, my LO could probably use some melatonin haha :)


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## Noelle610

Last night was okay for us. I gave Charlotte some tylenol at the start of the night because she seems to be teething. She actually slept great from 6:30pm to midnight. Then she seemed to wake hourly after that. I didn't go to her at 1am or 2am, because she wasn't really crying, just fussing, and put herself back to sleep. I tried to feed her at 3am, but she spit out the bottle... I think she was in pain from her teeth and also congested from her recent cold. If it isn't one thing, it's another. I feel okay this morning since I went to bed at 8pm and got a good 4 hours straight of sleep and was able to snooze between her early morning wakings. I can't believe I just wrote that... the old 8 hours a night me would be laughing. Any teething tips? I think the medicine probably wore off around midnight. Perhaps I should add it to her bottle at that time again?

Don't be jealous girls, but tonight I am off duty. My husband has booked me a hotel room at a luxury hotel down the street from our house. He is very kind and decided I needed a night to recharge. I'm going to have sushi with friends, take a bath and SLEEP for 10 hours straight. I admit to feeling a bit guilty for doing this. It's only the second night I've been away from Charlotte and the first time was work-related. I honestly am not even really looking forward to dinner with friends - I just want to go to bed LOL! Tell me I'm not a crappy mom for taking the night off? I need your reassurance!


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## Button#

Of course you're not a crappy mum! That sounds great and your OH is really sweet for arranging that for you. 

Ashley had a slightly better night last night as well. He went to bed at 7.30pm then woke up at 10.30pm for a feed and it took me an hour of resettling after which he slept until 2.30am. It only took a 20 minute feed and a cuddle to get him back to sleep rather than an hour of resettling. He woke up at 5am for another feed and I brought him into bed until 6.45am.

Doesn't sound like a great night but after the last 2 nights it was fantastic. Ashley has had a fever, a snotty cold and teething the last few days.


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## Noelle610

Button# said:


> Doesn't sound like a great night but after the last 2 nights it was fantastic. Ashley has had a fever, a snotty cold and teething the last few days.

I'm pretty sure my "great nights" sound horrible to some moms :)

I wonder about "good sleepers", do they wake when they are ill or teething? I tend to think my LO is sensitive to these things, perhaps more so than other babies. 

My DH has a good friend who claims she NEVER had any problems with her kids STTN after they started doing it. I can't understand... no teething, no illness, no sleep regressions?


----------



## Button#

Noelle610 said:


> Button# said:
> 
> 
> Doesn't sound like a great night but after the last 2 nights it was fantastic. Ashley has had a fever, a snotty cold and teething the last few days.
> 
> I'm pretty sure my "great nights" sound horrible to some moms :)
> 
> I wonder about "good sleepers", do they wake when they are ill or teething? I tend to think my LO is sensitive to these things, perhaps more so than other babies.
> 
> My DH has a good friend who claims she NEVER had any problems with her kids STTN after they started doing it. I can't understand... no teething, no illness, no sleep regressions?Click to expand...

I'm sure I've read before that lots of mums lie about their children's sleeping habits. I suppose they don't want people to think they're not looking after their babies properly, especially when it seems like everyone else's baby sttn. Also it stops people giving you unwanted advice.


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## Shadowy Lady

Noelle - hoping you got your wonderful 10 hour sleep. Kinda jealous hehe :D

I went for a super long walk with Sofia (4 hours) yesterday and she did MUCH better at night. Slept at 8 pm and didn't wake up till 2:40 am this morning (when i fed her) so I manages to sleep from 9:30 to 1:30 am. She was up again at 5 am when hubby gave her ebm and she went back down till now (8:30).

Hoping this trend continues...and good luck everyone else


----------



## lysh

aliss said:


> My boy's been really gassy the past 2 days :( God help me if I end up with another colicky one

Oh no....I hope not!! We are just getting out of our colicky phase, and I am honestly unsure about trying for a second right now just because I am not sure I can do it all over again. Hopefully your LO is just having some extra gas and it will dissipate. I can see how the fear will be there though.....I say, momma needs a break this time! lol


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## lysh

Noelle610 said:


> Last night was okay for us. I gave Charlotte some tylenol at the start of the night because she seems to be teething. She actually slept great from 6:30pm to midnight. Then she seemed to wake hourly after that. I didn't go to her at 1am or 2am, because she wasn't really crying, just fussing, and put herself back to sleep. I tried to feed her at 3am, but she spit out the bottle... I think she was in pain from her teeth and also congested from her recent cold. If it isn't one thing, it's another. I feel okay this morning since I went to bed at 8pm and got a good 4 hours straight of sleep and was able to snooze between her early morning wakings. I can't believe I just wrote that... the old 8 hours a night me would be laughing. Any teething tips? I think the medicine probably wore off around midnight. Perhaps I should add it to her bottle at that time again?
> 
> Don't be jealous girls, but tonight I am off duty. My husband has booked me a hotel room at a luxury hotel down the street from our house. He is very kind and decided I needed a night to recharge. I'm going to have sushi with friends, take a bath and SLEEP for 10 hours straight. I admit to feeling a bit guilty for doing this. It's only the second night I've been away from Charlotte and the first time was work-related. I honestly am not even really looking forward to dinner with friends - I just want to go to bed LOL! Tell me I'm not a crappy mom for taking the night off? I need your reassurance!

You are not a crappy mom!!! How sweet of your DH!!! I think it is important to recharge!


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## katrinalorien

Noelle - I think its a great idea!! What a sweet DH, and I think a recharged mother is great for the baby too!!

Shadowy - Wow that's awesome!! So happy for you!!

Button - I totally agree, I think some people lie about their kids, but I don't get it to be honest!! Why would you lie about something like that? Its not like your kid isn't smart, they just aren't sleeping!




As for me, last night was pretty decent!! She actually slept for 2 1/2 hours straight in her crib, after doing a 45 min session and resettling herself!! I'm so proud of her. After that it was back to every 45 min - 1 hr, but she did do one excellent stretch. Of course, did I sleep during that time? no!! Hahaha I was just anxious she'd get up the whole time.

I hope that this gets better - I remember her doing 5 hr stretches... Perhaps she will go back to that!!


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## lysh

So last night my girl had a 4 hour stretch from 6:30-10:30. We went to bed a half hour early. It was easier getting her to sleep too. She woke up a few times mid morning and then slept from 1:06-4ish. She played in her crib until 4:30 when I got up and fed her. I cannot remember the last time she had a 4 hour stretch! This is also her very FIRST time of getting 2 longer stretches in one night!


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## bananaz

Noelle610 said:


> Last night was okay for us. I gave Charlotte some tylenol at the start of the night because she seems to be teething. She actually slept great from 6:30pm to midnight. Then she seemed to wake hourly after that. I didn't go to her at 1am or 2am, because she wasn't really crying, just fussing, and put herself back to sleep. I tried to feed her at 3am, but she spit out the bottle... I think she was in pain from her teeth and also congested from her recent cold. If it isn't one thing, it's another. I feel okay this morning since I went to bed at 8pm and got a good 4 hours straight of sleep and was able to snooze between her early morning wakings. I can't believe I just wrote that... the old 8 hours a night me would be laughing. Any teething tips? I think the medicine probably wore off around midnight. Perhaps I should add it to her bottle at that time again?
> 
> Don't be jealous girls, but tonight I am off duty. My husband has booked me a hotel room at a luxury hotel down the street from our house. He is very kind and decided I needed a night to recharge. I'm going to have sushi with friends, take a bath and SLEEP for 10 hours straight. I admit to feeling a bit guilty for doing this. It's only the second night I've been away from Charlotte and the first time was work-related. I honestly am not even really looking forward to dinner with friends - I just want to go to bed LOL! Tell me I'm not a crappy mom for taking the night off? I need your reassurance!


Haha, sorry but I am SO jealous! Taking a night off doesn't make you a crappy mom though. In fact, I'm sure you'll come back a much more patient and motivated mom. I hope you take whatever drugs you need to take and get some serious SLEEP!


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## bananaz

katrina and lysh - sounds like you two are making progress! I hope it continues for you :thumbup:

Last night was okay. She woke up at 10:40pm and I managed to bounce/sing her back to sleep, and then she had feedings at 1am and 4:20am and was up for the day at 6:20am.

I think I may have figured out the cause of her 10:30-11:30pm wakeups - raccoons! I noticed there were four huge ones making all kinds of noise in the yard right outside her room last night. Anyone know what Ferber recommends for that problem? :dohh:


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## katrinalorien

bananaz said:


> katrina and lysh - sounds like you two are making progress! I hope it continues for you :thumbup:
> 
> Last night was okay. She woke up at 10:40pm and I managed to bounce/sing her back to sleep, and then she had feedings at 1am and 4:20am and was up for the day at 6:20am.
> 
> I think I may have figured out the cause of her 10:30-11:30pm wakeups - raccoons! I noticed there were four huge ones making all kinds of noise in the yard right outside her room last night. Anyone know what Ferber recommends for that problem? :dohh:

:rofl: Perhaps you should e-mail the chicago sleep clinic and ask him :D


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## MiniKiwi

Just wanted to warn all of you tired ladies, be extra careful if you're driving tired. I crashed my car last night, with my LO in it :( I drove right into someones house just by mistaking the accelerator for the brake. Ugh. I felt like SUCH an idiot. Everyone is fine but it really shook me up

Noelle, I hope you have had a wonderful rest. Do not feel guilty about it at all, you're doing a great job and you deserve this :)


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## katrinalorien

mini- I hope you are ok, and are getting some much needed rest. Please don't feel like an idiot, you were seriously sleep deprived.


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## Boo44

Hi girls I thought you'd be good people to ask this as you've all read the books I haven't read! About naps - I don't have trouble (touch wood) with his morning and lunch time naps but I don't know what to do about his late afternoon nap. He used to just fall asleep easily with a little cuddle. I'd do it around half 4 or 5pm and let him have 30 mins max. Now though he doesn't like being rocked any more (sob!) so it's difficult to get him to sleep, unless we're out in the pram or car. As a result he missed his nap completely yesterday and was awake 3pm until he went to bed at half 7 I was sooo worried! And he was cranky obv. But last night he slept well. 

Soooo basically my question is - how much day sleep does he *need* and does he need 3 naps? If so, what time do u think I should aim for his afternoon one? My mum tells me he doesn't need it and he'll sleep better but I don't really agree. Hmmm...


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## katrinalorien

Boo44 said:


> Soooo basically my question is - how much day sleep does he *need* and does he need 3 naps? If so, what time do u think I should aim for his afternoon one? My mum tells me he doesn't need it and he'll sleep better but I don't really agree. Hmmm...

If I remember correctly, according to Healthy Sleep Habits, Happy Child, they need 3 naps up until 6 months or so? Naps are best if they are 1 1/2 hours in length, but anything over 1 hr is good (and sometimes a 45 min nap is ok as well) The pediatrician in that book also says unless you are trying to make a schedule, don't wake the baby, because it encourages broken sleep. 

For me, I don't do it the same time everyday exactly, but that's because Lily wakes up at different times. She always goes down for her first nap at about 2 hours after she wakes up (sometimes 1 1/2 if she starts to get cranky then) But bear in mind I have to start winding her down before that time. 

Anyway Lily is a bit strange, loves to take a 45 min nap, so sometimes she takes 4 naps! But if she doesn't then she will NOT sleep very easily at night. I think you have to do what works for your kid, so if yours likes 3 naps, keep it up until it no longer works! :flower:


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## lysh

bananaz- lol......that is funny!! 
minikiwi- Oh my....I am glad you are both okay!!! That is crazy! Sleep deprivation is an awful thing. I find the sleep deprivation to be the hardest thing about being a parent right now.
Katrina- My lo does not have specific nap times either- it all depends when she wakes up. I was going on 1 1/2 hour schedule, but lately she has been pushing it to 2-3 hours which is not good because then she is overtired!


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## jessicatunnel

I decided to log Lilly's night wakings last night so here is what I got:
I went to bed at 10:03pm.
Lilly woke up for a bottle at 11:08pm.
Then woke again at 11:57pm for reassurance/settling.
Then woke again at 4:30 am for bottle.
Then woke at 5:55am for reassurance/settling.

Then slept until 9am! 

Oh, and she woke about three times before I went to bed for some reassurance/settling, so all in all from the time she went to bed to the time she woke up she woke up 7 times. Yeahh, that's about normal for us. HAHA. 

So I got a good 4.5 hour stretch of sleep from 12-4:30am! YAAAAAAAY! That has been more than I've gotten in a long time. Going to log her wakings again tonight. 

She just went down at 7:30pm for bed. A little later than normal because we were out all day and she had her last nap at 4:20pm today.


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## jessicatunnel

MiniKiwi said:


> Just wanted to warn all of you tired ladies, be extra careful if you're driving tired. I crashed my car last night, with my LO in it :( I drove right into someones house just by mistaking the accelerator for the brake. Ugh. I felt like SUCH an idiot. Everyone is fine but it really shook me up
> 
> Noelle, I hope you have had a wonderful rest. Do not feel guilty about it at all, you're doing a great job and you deserve this :)

Omg, I'm so glad that everyone is okay, that's so scary!


----------



## Boo44

katrinalorien said:


> Boo44 said:
> 
> 
> Soooo basically my question is - how much day sleep does he *need* and does he need 3 naps? If so, what time do u think I should aim for his afternoon one? My mum tells me he doesn't need it and he'll sleep better but I don't really agree. Hmmm...
> 
> If I remember correctly, according to Healthy Sleep Habits, Happy Child, they need 3 naps up until 6 months or so? Naps are best if they are 1 1/2 hours in length, but anything over 1 hr is good (and sometimes a 45 min nap is ok as well) The pediatrician in that book also says unless you are trying to make a schedule, don't wake the baby, because it encourages broken sleepClick to expand...

Thanks! But he has a bottle around 3.30pm every day. So by the time this is over etc he can't take his third nap until 4.30pm at the earliest and often not until 5. And im concerned that this late nap could be the reason why he's waking early in the mornings (all i have to suggest this is that the day he mjssed it he slept until 7.30am maybe a coincidence)

If I didn't wake him after half an hour it would run into bath/bed time which would definitely affect his night sleep. But if I miss it all together he'd need to be awake from 3ish til half 7 bed!! Help!


----------



## polaris

katrinalorien said:


> Boo44 said:
> 
> 
> Soooo basically my question is - how much day sleep does he *need* and does he need 3 naps? If so, what time do u think I should aim for his afternoon one? My mum tells me he doesn't need it and he'll sleep better but I don't really agree. Hmmm...
> 
> If I remember correctly, according to Healthy Sleep Habits, Happy Child, they need 3 naps up until 6 months or so? Naps are best if they are 1 1/2 hours in length, but anything over 1 hr is good (and sometimes a 45 min nap is ok as well) The pediatrician in that book also says unless you are trying to make a schedule, don't wake the baby, because it encourages broken sleep.
> 
> For me, I don't do it the same time everyday exactly, but that's because Lily wakes up at different times. She always goes down for her first nap at about 2 hours after she wakes up (sometimes 1 1/2 if she starts to get cranky then) But bear in mind I have to start winding her down before that time.
> 
> Anyway Lily is a bit strange, loves to take a 45 min nap, so sometimes she takes 4 naps! But if she doesn't then she will NOT sleep very easily at night. I think you have to do what works for your kid, so if yours likes 3 naps, keep it up until it no longer works! :flower:Click to expand...

I found this chart quite useful as well in relation to average sleep needs, number of naps, etc. Although Clara likes to go to bed much earlier than the average bedtimes on this chart.
 



Attached Files:







Sleep-By-Age.pdf
File size: 90.3 KB
Views: 27


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## Button#

MiniKiwi - that must have been so scary, hope you are both ok.

Ashley actually had a really good night last night. He woke up at 11pm and 4am for feeds and he was really easy to settle afterwards. Then he didn't wake up until 7am.


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## jessicatunnel

Alright last night wasn't so good. Neither one of got a solid two hour sleep at all last night. She woke up every 1.5 hours from the time she went to bed to the time she woke up for today. Here's her log I did last night. 

Went to bed at 730pm.
Woke up at 9pm for bottle.
Woke up at 1018pm to be resettled. 
Woke at 1141pm for a bottle. 
Woke up at 110am to be resettled. 
Woke up at 326am for bottle. 
Woke up at 454am to be resettled. 
Woke up at 525 to be resettled. 
Woke up at 745am for the day. 

I think I may have found the cause of why she wakes up so Much at night. She normally has the majority of her bottles at night with less bottles during the day. My no cry sleep solutions book says that she is probably so used to eating more at night then during the day time therefore waking up so many times a night. 

I've tried feeding her more in the day time before but she hates it, lol she mainly only eats before her naps but I'm going to try again.


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## lysh

jessicatunnel said:


> Alright last night wasn't so good. Neither one of got a solid two hour sleep at all last night. She woke up every 1.5 hours from the time she went to bed to the time she woke up for today. Here's her log I did last night.
> 
> Went to bed at 730pm.
> Woke up at 9pm for bottle.
> Woke up at 1018pm to be resettled.
> Woke at 1141pm for a bottle.
> Woke up at 110am to be resettled.
> Woke up at 326am for bottle.
> Woke up at 454am to be resettled.
> Woke up at 525 to be resettled.
> Woke up at 745am for the day.
> 
> I think I may have found the cause of why she wakes up so Much at night. She normally has the majority of her bottles at night with less bottles during the day. My no cry sleep solutions book says that she is probably so used to eating more at night then during the day time therefore waking up so many times a night.
> 
> I've tried feeding her more in the day time before but she hates it, lol she mainly only eats before her naps but I'm going to try again.

You could try stretching the feedings out a bit, or start to decrease the amount in the bottle so that she starts to seek out those calories during the day. So if she drinks 4 oz, maybe give her 3 oz and then the following night 2 oz etc.


----------



## katrinalorien

Wow last night wasn't bad at all. I don't have a clock in my bedroom but I know she went to bed at around 8:15 or so, and didn't wake till 11:07~! (kitchen clock) Then she wanted to be breastfed and that's when I took her to bed with me. I think we got up twice (maybe three times, but I think only twice) and when we got up for the day it was 5:51. So that's not too bad at all!! 

Now I can't wait for her to roll over, because my Lily settles so much better on her stomach... and then I know she can roll over onto her stomach on her own.


----------



## Noelle610

Hey ladies! Sorry for my delay in responding. Had a lovely night... Dinner with friends, bath and bed for 8 hours! I admit I woke frequently as I'm conditioned to do, but it was refreshing just to be alone and rest. DH is coming to pick me up after Charlotte's first nap. Of course she had her best night ever with him and slept 7pm to 5am!!!!! I am sure she woke and he didn't hear. Does make me wonder if perhaps I am responding too quickly at night. 

MiniKiwi - so glad you are okay! Please take care of yourself. I was just saying last night I don't trust myself driving at the moment. 

I'm happy to hear about some good nights. Lysh, 4 hour stretchs?! Lovely. Now you know LO can do it and she will do it consistantly soon enough. 

Boo - that last nap is TOUGH! My LO is a good napper but we struggle with the 3rd one too, which I feel she still needs at 6 months. Generally around our babies' ages the "experts" recommend 11 hours of night sleep (you have to subtract time awake for night feeds, etc) and 4 during the day. The "sleep coach" I spoke to said motion naps were fine for the last one, so perhaps take Jack for a walk or use a swing? Mine won't be rocked anymore either :) Also, Charlotte tends to sleep fine at 7pm even if she naps until 6pm. I know this changes as they get older, but it hasn't been an issue for us yet. 

Jessica, it sounds like you need to gently get Lilly to eat less at night. I haven't yet read Ferber's book, but I know he has some good techniques. Like Lysh suggested, decreasing the amount or spacing the feess would be ideal. She may wake more at first because she's not used to it, but in the long run it should help. I think she'll continue to refuse more milk during the day if she gets it at night. 

Hope everyone has had a great weekend. Sending sleepy vibes your way!


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## Shadowy Lady

Minikiwi - omg, I'm so glad everyone is ok! I tend to avoid driving when I'm tired coz I don't trust myself. Hope you get much needed rest soon.

Katrina - so happy you had a better night. I agree with the rolling part as well. My LO lives tummy time and can't wait till she can rest on her belly.

Noelle - happy you had a great night :) it does sound that you may be getting to her to quickly though. I must say I'm the same though.

Jessica - man....that must be exhausting! Sending sleep dust your LO's way.

Sofia slept from 8 to 1:30 am, fed and went back down till 5:30!!! At that point my DH gave her a bottle of ebm and I got to snooze till 8 am. Really hope her sleep gets to her old norm soon. She's napping right now at 10:30


----------



## lysh

Noell-Glad you got some good rest!!! 7-5 is great! Maybe increase your response time a bit to see what happens. I did that last night and LO went back to sleep without needing a feed...went from 2 hours between to almost 3.


----------



## Boo44

Pleased you had a lovely time Noelle! Thanks for the advice. I've decided I think Jack still does need that nap, today my MIL was over and she cuddled him to sleep for 20mins at 16.45 which I think was just fine. Thanks for the tip re motion napping!! Xx


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## jessicatunnel

I've been trying to feed her more today, doing good so far. 

Noelle, I always respond immediately. Which is stupid because the one time I didn't she went back to sleep. I can't help it though you know, as soon as I hear her I'm up and in her room to see what's the matter. :dohh:


----------



## lysh

jessicatunnel said:


> I've been trying to feed her more today, doing good so far.
> 
> Noelle, I always respond immediately. Which is stupid because the one time I didn't she went back to sleep. I can't help it though you know, as soon as I hear her I'm up and in her room to see what's the matter. :dohh:

It is hard to give it a few minutes...I have a video monitor which helps because I can at least see her and know she is ok. I can also get a read on her body language (ex-if legs were drawn up I would know it was a gas issue).


----------



## bananaz

*MiniKiwi *- How scary! I'm glad you guys are okay. Sleep deprivation really is a serious thing :(

*Noelle *- So glad you got some sleep! And of course she slept amazingly the one night dad was on duty :dohh: Isn't that how these things always work??

*jessica *- Good luck trying to move Lilly's feeding schedule! It sounds like you're on track. I'm also in the process of doing the same thing with Elsie, but she's so difficult to feed during the day that I'm guessing we'll be having night feeds for a while.

*Shadowy Lady* - Wow, only one waking - that's amazing! I'm super jealous. I hope it continues to go well for you.


Last night was rough. It took me 40 minutes to get her to sleep and then she woke up every 1-2 hours for the rest of the night. She also moved both of her night feeds an hour earlier than usual and decided to get up a half hour earlier than usual. Arghh. I'm going to blame this on all the extra stimulation she got from my friend who was visiting from out of town yesterday and hope that she'll go back to sleeping better tonight...


----------



## Noelle610

Great night last night! Charlotte wouldn't take her 3rd nap, so we put her down at 6pm. She did two 5 hour stretches... Woke at 11pm and 4am, then up at 6:15 for the day. I feel soooo good. 

She only took 2 ounces at 11pm, so maybe I will try not feeding her at that time to gently encourage her to sleep through the earlier wakings. She didn't seem starving at 4am either, which makes me really think once a night is plenty for her. 

We are going to Texas for Thanksgiving, Tuesday through Saturday, to see DH's family. I'm really concerned about it messing with naps and sleep. Regardless, guess we can't stay home until she's 3! So here's hoping its not too bad.


----------



## anti

Noelle610 said:


> We are going to Texas for Thanksgiving, Tuesday through Saturday, to see DH's family. I'm really concerned about it messing with naps and sleep. Regardless, guess we can't stay home until she's 3! So here's hoping its not too bad.

This is exactly what I was thinking!! We are going to Ireland for 12 days over Christmas to see OH's family and I'm terrified its gonna mess with naps and bedtime and all that, but like you say, we can't stay home for ever!!


----------



## Noelle610

anti said:


> Noelle610 said:
> 
> 
> We are going to Texas for Thanksgiving, Tuesday through Saturday, to see DH's family. I'm really concerned about it messing with naps and sleep. Regardless, guess we can't stay home until she's 3! So here's hoping its not too bad.
> 
> This is exactly what I was thinking!! We are going to Ireland for 12 days over Christmas to see OH's family and I'm terrified its gonna mess with naps and bedtime and all that, but like you say, we can't stay home for ever!!Click to expand...

I'm such an anxious person, wish I could be a bit more relaxed about these things! My LO is pretty unpredictable though, so maybe I should just think positive and pretend that the traveling will be good for her sleep :haha:


----------



## jessicatunnel

Noelle610 said:


> Great night last night! Charlotte wouldn't take her 3rd nap, so we put her down at 6pm. She did two 5 hour stretches... Woke at 11pm and 4am, then up at 6:15 for the day. I feel soooo good.
> 
> She only took 2 ounces at 11pm, so maybe I will try not feeding her at that time to gently encourage her to sleep through the earlier wakings. She didn't seem starving at 4am either, which makes me really think once a night is plenty for her.
> 
> We are going to Texas for Thanksgiving, Tuesday through Saturday, to see DH's family. I'm really concerned about it messing with naps and sleep. Regardless, guess we can't stay home until she's 3! So here's hoping its not too bad.

Awhh, Texas is my home state. :D 

Lilly did better last night, she only had two bottles instead of her usual 3 or 4. 
But she still woke up a ton to be settled back to sleep. 
I'm so so tired this morning. I'm usually really good about handling my tired-ness, but today I just feel like cuddling up on the couch with a blanket and going to sleep. 

Last night she woke up around 3 and I couldn't get her back to sleep so I ended up leaning over the crib and putting my arms around her and my head on her belly, lol, but she went to sleep almost instantly. I think she thought I was laying next to her. But it KILLED my back!

We have cosleeped a few times, but I just don't get very much sleep doing that. :/

We're going back home for Christmas and normally I'd be worried that it would mess her up, but she's just such an awful sleeper already, I don't see how it could get any worse!


----------



## Noelle610

jessicatunnel said:


> Noelle610 said:
> 
> 
> Great night last night! Charlotte wouldn't take her 3rd nap, so we put her down at 6pm. She did two 5 hour stretches... Woke at 11pm and 4am, then up at 6:15 for the day. I feel soooo good.
> 
> She only took 2 ounces at 11pm, so maybe I will try not feeding her at that time to gently encourage her to sleep through the earlier wakings. She didn't seem starving at 4am either, which makes me really think once a night is plenty for her.
> 
> We are going to Texas for Thanksgiving, Tuesday through Saturday, to see DH's family. I'm really concerned about it messing with naps and sleep. Regardless, guess we can't stay home until she's 3! So here's hoping its not too bad.
> 
> Awhh, Texas is my home state. :D
> 
> Lilly did better last night, she only had two bottles instead of her usual 3 or 4.
> But she still woke up a ton to be settled back to sleep.
> I'm so so tired this morning. I'm usually really good about handling my tired-ness, but today I just feel like cuddling up on the couch with a blanket and going to sleep.
> 
> Last night she woke up around 3 and I couldn't get her back to sleep so I ended up leaning over the crib and putting my arms around her and my head on her belly, lol, but she went to sleep almost instantly. I think she thought I was laying next to her. But it KILLED my back!
> 
> We have cosleeped a few times, but I just don't get very much sleep doing that. :/
> 
> We're going back home for Christmas and normally I'd be worried that it would mess her up, but she's just such an awful sleeper already, I don't see how it could get any worse!Click to expand...

Where are you from, Jessica? DH is from San Antonio. I love it there! His family is really great, so they will be willing to help if we don't sleep that great. That's always nice.

I'm glad to hear Lilly is feeding less at night! It will probably take a few weeks for her to get used to not waking, even if she's not hungry. Doesn't make any easier for you, I know! Charlotte obviously doesn't "need" to wake at 11pm, but she's so used to it that she still does. I too have tried cosleeping, but don't sleep well. I wish I did - it sounds lovely when it works!

I hear you on feeling so bent out of shape about being tired. There are days when I'm great about it. I just think, "This too shall pass", drink lots of coffee and have a good sense of humor. Other days - like when I started this thread! - I just feel sick, broken down and utterly hopeless. 

Here's hoping you get a nap or some rest tonight!


----------



## Shadowy Lady

i have a question for you guys. Those of you who suffer from insomnia and cannot sleep even when LO sleeps, what do you do about it? Last night Sofia slept from 8 pm to 12, then again till 2:30 and then till 4:30. So she woke up more but I also could not sleep when she was sleeping. i ended up only snoozing for 30 mins all together....this is a common problem for me and it's starting to make me depressed :(


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## Noelle610

Shadowy Lady said:


> i have a question for you guys. Those of you who suffer from insomnia and cannot sleep even when LO sleeps, what do you do about it? Last night Sofia slept from 8 pm to 12, then again till 2:30 and then till 4:30. So she woke up more but I also could not sleep when she was sleeping. i ended up only snoozing for 30 mins all together....this is a common problem for me and it's starting to make me depressed :(

I struggle with this. My doctor suggested "Simply Sleep", which is essentially Tylenol PM without the Tylenol. A half dose works well for me. It's safe for breasfeeding as well. It typically does make me a little groggy for night wakings, but it doesn't keep me from rousing. Melatonin, a natural suppliment, is great too.

If you don't want to take medication, I've found a glass of milk before bed can actually work to relax me! Also, not watching TV or being on my phone right before bed helps too. The light from the screen makes it hard for your brain to wind down.

Finally, per your recommendation! I've found that exercise during the day helps. I walked 2 miles with LO and the pup yesterday and slept really well.


----------



## MrsPear

Noelle610 said:


> Great night last night! Charlotte wouldn't take her 3rd nap, so we put her down at 6pm. She did two 5 hour stretches... Woke at 11pm and 4am, then up at 6:15 for the day. I feel soooo good.
> 
> She only took 2 ounces at 11pm, so maybe I will try not feeding her at that time to gently encourage her to sleep through the earlier wakings. She didn't seem starving at 4am either, which makes me really think once a night is plenty for her.
> 
> We are going to Texas for Thanksgiving, Tuesday through Saturday, to see DH's family. I'm really concerned about it messing with naps and sleep. Regardless, guess we can't stay home until she's 3! So here's hoping its not too bad.

Hooray for 2 five hour stretches, that's great! Now to see if she can keep it up, hope so. Then hopefully you will be able to relax better at night to get better quality sleep yourself.

As for going to see family- we went to my mum's at the weekend which was the first time we have used the travel cot. I was really worried and then she kept waking up every time I lowered her in because it is a lot lower than I'm used to..i was having a minor breakdown...buuut, once asleep she did a five hour stretch both nights! Won't do a long stretch in the cot she sleeps in every night, but comfy as anything on the thin travel cot mattress...so don't despair just yet! The most stressful part was the 'advice' from family about naps and cio and so on! X


----------



## Noelle610

MrsPear said:


> Noelle610 said:
> 
> 
> Great night last night! Charlotte wouldn't take her 3rd nap, so we put her down at 6pm. She did two 5 hour stretches... Woke at 11pm and 4am, then up at 6:15 for the day. I feel soooo good.
> 
> She only took 2 ounces at 11pm, so maybe I will try not feeding her at that time to gently encourage her to sleep through the earlier wakings. She didn't seem starving at 4am either, which makes me really think once a night is plenty for her.
> 
> We are going to Texas for Thanksgiving, Tuesday through Saturday, to see DH's family. I'm really concerned about it messing with naps and sleep. Regardless, guess we can't stay home until she's 3! So here's hoping its not too bad.
> 
> Hooray for 2 five hour stretches, that's great! Now to see if she can keep it up, hope so. Then hopefully you will be able to relax better at night to get better quality sleep yourself.
> 
> As for going to see family- we went to my mum's at the weekend which was the first time we have used the travel cot. I was really worried and then she kept waking up every time I lowered her in because it is a lot lower than I'm used to..i was having a minor breakdown...buuut, once asleep she did a five hour stretch both nights! Won't do a long stretch in the cot she sleeps in every night, but comfy as anything on the thin travel cot mattress...so don't despair just yet! The most stressful part was the 'advice' from family about naps and cio and so on! XClick to expand...

That's sweet! Here's hoping my LO will follow that lead and do the same. Makes me feel a lot better.

I'm not so worried about family, but I do worry about "advice" from DH's best friend. She's sweet and all, but her two kids STTN from 6 weeks old and I'm convinced she thinks I'm doing something wrong. Although to be honest I could just be paranoid!


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## katrinalorien

Hah women and their "advice". One of my friends who is pregnant on FB asked me for advice on sleep and I almost laughed. I told her to check back in with me IF their baby had problems.

We went to a thanksgiving thing with my grandparents this weekend and one old lady asked me if my baby was a "good baby". I replied that she was a "fantastic baby" but not a good sleeper. What does being a good baby even mean? I mean what qualifies as a good baby? Really? How can a baby be a "bad" baby?


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## Shadowy Lady

Katrina - lol I know what you mean! I actually have ppl asking me "is Sofia good? Does she sleep through?" It only makes me feel worse that she went from sleeping to not :/

And speaking of which, she's teething so for the last two nights she wakes up 6+ a night and only once did she feed. The rest of the times she's fussy and wants her soother....

I feel like a zombie today :(


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## Noelle610

Oh honey, 6 times is a lot! I feel for you. Naps and coffee. This too shall pass. 

Katrina I hate that "good baby" thing. When people ask me if Charlotte is a good baby, I want to respond with "No, she's a real asshole!". Sheesh. 

Another great night for us. Slept 6pm to 1am and then up for the day at 6am. We are now in San Antonio for Thanksgiving and naps are all messed up... Charlotte is really routined, so I'm sure the good sleep is totally out the window now.


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## jessicatunnel

We're from Brownwood. It's central Texas, I miss it so much. :(
But my Aunt lives in San Antonio and I love it too! Especially the River Walk. :D

Lilly only woke up three times last night!! I can't even believe it, it's so much better than the usual 6/7 times. And she only had one bottle. :happydance:


----------



## Boo44

jessicatunnel said:


> We're from Brownwood. It's central Texas, I miss it so much. :(
> But my Aunt lives in San Antonio and I love it too! Especially the River Walk. :D
> 
> Lilly only woke up three times last night!! I can't even believe it, it's so much better than the usual 6/7 times. And she only had one bottle. :happydance:

Yay Lilly!!! That's such good progress :)

Your new avatar pic is adoooooorable!!!


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## Noelle610

Go Lilly!! Bet this is the start of a pattern for you.


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## FirstatForty

:hugs:I hear you. We're struggling too, but with slightly different details. Regardless, no one has given me a quick fix, and I can't give you one either, but I just want to say you are not alone...and THANK YOU for showing me that I am not alone either.

My beautiful son is 5.5 months old as well. Maybe we can do 'one day at a time' together until it truly does what people say it will......'pass'....

Hugs to you.:hugs:


----------



## bananaz

Noelle610 said:


> Another great night for us. Slept 6pm to 1am and then up for the day at 6am. We are now in San Antonio for Thanksgiving and naps are all messed up... Charlotte is really routined, so I'm sure the good sleep is totally out the window now.

Holy cow, that's amazing! I hope she's able to rebound from the disruption quickly, or better yet I hope that there's no disruption at all (I know, that may be asking too much) 




jessicatunnel said:


> Lilly only woke up three times last night!! I can't even believe it, it's so much better than the usual 6/7 times. And she only had one bottle. :happydance:

YAY!! Do you think it's just from shifting her eating schedule to the daytime? In Ferber's book he said a lot of people are able to resolve all of their babies' sleep issues just through the gradual nighttime weaning method, I hope that's the case for you!


Elsie's sleep continues to be really unpredictable. Last night she had a lovely 5 hour stretch but then woke every 1-2 hours until 6:15am. The night before she had her 10:40pm waking yet again, only that time she decided she was STARVING and after 30 minutes of bouncing and patting and singing I finally gave in and nursed her. Thankfully she then skipped her normal 1am waking and slept until 4am instead. 

I guess I'll just be glad that her sleep isn't consistently horrible any more, and hope that things level out a bit soon...


----------



## katrinalorien

Yesterday ended up being really strange, and today was strange too. She had one mega nap in the middle of the day today, and one mega nap in the midmorning-afternoon yesterday. Last night she slept from 9:00 pm - 1:00 am. I wanted to put her in bed more quickly, but she had rolled and DH wanted to see the "trick". She never rolled for him still! Hah. She hasn't rolled again today, but did take a 2 1/2 hour nap this after noon. Actually I kinda woke her (kinda because what I really did was respond REALLY quickly to a wake up that could have easily turned into just a small arousal.)

I don't know, this is so strange. I'm pretty sure its because last night she ended up doing 9-1, then waking frequently till 6:30, definitely not enough sleep. So she's making up for it during the day! Gotta correct this!! I will have to wake her tomorrow.


----------



## katrinalorien

Good luck to everyone over the holidays, hope the travel doesn't interfere too much!


----------



## lysh

Bananaz- I find I do not have the will power to not nurse to try to stretch out feedings....either I have to listen to LO cry, or I have to rock/bounce etc. which just irritates LO more because she wants to nurse. :/ 

Good news is that I can typically put LO in the crib without her screaming. Bad news, is that now I have to get out of bed and spend 20-30 minutes nursing her every 2 hours! We occasionally get a 3 hour stretch these days, but not often enough!

Noelle- That is great you had two good nights! I hope it sticks for you!!!

***I was getting my hair done today and found out the lady next to me has a 4 month old. We got into the topic of sleep and she started going on how grateful she is that her son started sleeping through the night before she started work- he was 12 weeks. lol Then my hairdresser mentions that her LO started STTN at 2 months. I am sitting there like....yeah- if I get a 3 hour stretch I am thrilled!


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## polaris

Well I had been thinking about weaning Clara off the swaddle as she was starting to break out of it. However I tried a double swaddle last night when she woke at 10.30 (as recommended on another thread) and she slept from 10.30 to 4.30 and then until 8.30!!


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## MrsPear

lysh said:


> Bananaz- I find I do not have the will power to not nurse to try to stretch out feedings....either I have to listen to LO cry, or I have to rock/bounce etc. which just irritates LO more because she wants to nurse. :/
> 
> Good news is that I can typically put LO in the crib without her screaming. Bad news, is that now I have to get out of bed and spend 20-30 minutes nursing her every 2 hours! We occasionally get a 3 hour stretch these days, but not often enough!
> 
> Noelle- That is great you had two good nights! I hope it sticks for you!!!
> 
> ***I was getting my hair done today and found out the lady next to me has a 4 month old. We got into the topic of sleep and she started going on how grateful she is that her son started sleeping through the night before she started work- he was 12 weeks. lol Then my hairdresser mentions that her LO started STTN at 2 months. I am sitting there like....yeah- if I get a 3 hour stretch I am thrilled!

I find the same about feedings,it's the only 'weapon' I have in the night so I just feed feed feed! Sometimes I think I should spread them out but I'm so tired I just want the easy solution. 

Joni was probably up 50percent of the night but my oh is off today, so he helped out. It's so much better when he can help. She slept fro 5.00 to 7.45 then oh took her downstairs till 10.00 so I got a few blissful hours. Then he brought me a coffee and now he's washing up :flower: I don't know how joni does it, she only had 15 minutes nap after 3pm, she wasn't in bed properly until 9pm and she was crying by 10... Yet she's having a great time batting toys in her bumbo now...maybe I need some breastmilk too, would I be as energised then?!


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## Noelle610

Lysh, I feel for you... There's a mom of a newborn on my block who has an 8 week old and he is already STTN. I feel like these moms think surely I'm doing something wrong!

Charlotte refused to nap almost all day yesterday, but she actually didn't do too bad last night! Asleep at 6pm and woke at 8pm. That made me think it was going to be a tough night... But she then slept until 2am! She tried to get up around 4:30 because the time difference confused her, but I managed to get her down until 6am. I call that success!


----------



## stephj25

I'm back!! the STTN only lasted for 2 days. I have no idea what is going on anymore!

Olivia goes to bed at 7:30, wakes at 10:30 then every 2 hours after that. Also, she's barely napping in the day now. I thought that it was supposed to get better after 6 months? 

I think Olivia is trying to crawl, every time she wakes in the night, she is always on her tummy trying to move around, but gets frustrated because she can't. I'm exhausted!! plus, I'm a bit poorly today so Olivia is probably going to get that too! :cry:

It's a bit rubbish that we are all going through this but at least we can talk to each other about it :thumbup:


----------



## polaris

stephj25 said:


> I'm back!! the STTN only lasted for 2 days. I have no idea what is going on anymore!
> 
> Olivia goes to bed at 7:30, wakes at 10:30 then every 2 hours after that. Also, she's barely napping in the day now. I thought that it was supposed to get better after 6 months?
> 
> I think Olivia is trying to crawl, every time she wakes in the night, she is always on her tummy trying to move around, but gets frustrated because she can't. I'm exhausted!! plus, I'm a bit poorly today so Olivia is probably going to get that too! :cry:
> 
> It's a bit rubbish that we are all going through this but at least we can talk to each other about it :thumbup:

I think a lot of babies actually have very disturbed sleep around about the six month mark, I think it is developmental. Thomas definitely had a sleep regression at that age, going back to very frequent wakings after having had about a month of sleeping well.


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## Shadowy Lady

Noelle - great to hear that you are both doing well sleep wise.

Steph - awe I'm sorry to hear. Hope things are back up for you guys soon.

We discovered that Sofia has a cold on top of teething. Poor thing had a blocked nose that wax keeping her up all night. Gave her a steam bath last night, turned on the humidifier and her space heater and she slept from 8 pm to 2 am, then again till 5 am!!

She's looking better this morning. Hope all troubles go away for all of us soon.


----------



## bananaz

Shadowy Lady said:


> We discovered that Sofia has a cold on top of teething. Poor thing had a blocked nose that wax keeping her up all night. Gave her a steam bath last night, turned on the humidifier and her space heater and she slept from 8 pm to 2 am, then again till 5 am!!
> 
> She's looking better this morning. Hope all troubles go away for all of us soon.


That's awesome! I bet you felt like a new woman.

The night before last was very similar for Elsie. Down at 7:30, up at 2:30, then down again until 6. I was so happy! But it all fell apart again last night, and she woke every two hours all night until she decided to be up for the day at 5:30 :( 

As an experiment I tried bringing her into my bed at that point, and after about 30 minutes of nursing and back rubbing she fell asleep for another two hours! I'm not sure what to make of that, except that it confirmed my suspicion that she's not getting enough nighttime sleep and that she shouldn't be waking so early. 

I have no idea what to do anymore. I give up. It's been over a month of this crazy unpredictable crap and I have tried all of my ideas and I seriously just give up.


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## Noelle610

Bananaz, I totally relate to be done with the unpredictability. It's so frustrating. I wish I could find a pattern in Charlotte's sleep. Like when she self-settles at bedtime, she sleeps well or when she eats more solids during the day she sleeps well. But there's no rhyme or reason to it. A lot of the books on getting baby to sleep through the night relate to feeding (Baby Whisperer, Babywise), but what if your baby isn't waking due to hunger?

Sometimes Charlie will wake briefly, fuss and put herself back to sleep. This would all be well and good, but it wakes me up! Weissbluth and Ferber would say she's waking between sleep cycles because she is overtired, but how is that possible when she is a pretty good napper? We're still in Texas and Charlotte had a 90 minute nap in the morning and a TWO AND A HALF HOUR nap in the afternoon, yet still woke about 4 times. I don't get it. How frustrating.


----------



## bananaz

Noelle610 said:


> Bananaz, I totally relate to be done with the unpredictability. It's so frustrating. I wish I could find a pattern in Charlotte's sleep. Like when she self-settles at bedtime, she sleeps well or when she eats more solids during the day she sleeps well. But there's no rhyme or reason to it. A lot of the books on getting baby to sleep through the night relate to feeding (Baby Whisperer, Babywise), but what if your baby isn't waking due to hunger?
> 
> Sometimes Charlie will wake briefly, fuss and put herself back to sleep. This would all be well and good, but it wakes me up! Weissbluth and Ferber would say she's waking between sleep cycles because she is overtired, but how is that possible when she is a pretty good napper? We're still in Texas and Charlotte had a 90 minute nap in the morning and a TWO AND A HALF HOUR nap in the afternoon, yet still woke about 4 times. I don't get it. How frustrating.

Yes, where is the freaking pattern?! Whenever she has a good night I spend ages poring over the details of the preceding day and try to reproduce those conditions exactly. Most of the time it doesn't work and the next night sucks anyway, but sometimes she'll continue to have good nights and I'll convince myself that I've found the miracle cure only to find out that it was all just a coincidence when she starts waking frequently again.

And I don't think hunger or being overtired are her issues either. I've made a point of feeding her really well during the day, both milk and solids, and she's consistently been taking three 1-1.5 hour long naps a day which is amazing for her. 

The one thing I haven't tried is putting her down totally awake at night. I usually nurse until drowsy, set her in her crib and then she makes herself comfy and goes to sleep. I know she's capable of self-settling from awake but she usually puts up a fight and having peaceful, sleepy cuddle time is so much more pleasant for both of us.


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## grumpymoo

Thank you ladies. I feel so much better hearing your stories and knowing I am not alone.

My lo has nearly always woken every 2 hours to nurse. Recently it can be every hour! Sometimes my older lo gets me up too. I now lay in bed on a night getting stressed waiting for one of them to wake and not being able to sleep myself. Ridiculous!

I can't seem to break the nursing habit. its all he wants. I don't know. Sigh....

Anyway good luck tonight everyone :)


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## Shadowy Lady

Bananaz - thanks hun. Hope Elsie has a better night tonight. I'm so glad we have each other to talk to here. 

Noelle - arghhh I totally know what you mean. Just when you think you made progress, things go backwards :(

Sofia had a decent night with two wakings at 12:30 am and 4:30 am (down at 8 pm). I however only slept one hour :( Saw the doctor today and got a prescription for sleep pills....i feel so tired today couldn't even drive there...had to cab


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## Noelle610

Grumpy, I know how it's easiest to take the path of least resistance! 

Shadowy Lady, glad you got some help for the insomnia. We mamas have to take care of ourselves. Get some much-deserved rest tonight!

Charlotte is napping horribly today. She did 90 minutes this morning, but just 30 minutes for her noon and 3pm naps. Ugh. Here's hoping tonight isn't a nightmare. I am so obsessive about her napping well that it's probably unhealthy. On the bright side, DH and his family played with her after our Thanksgiving dinner and I had a lovely one hour nap myself!


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## lysh

Everything is still back and forth with sleep here too....we have a great night and then crappy ones. She is unpredictable.....Bananaz- I did the same thing, one morning at 5 I took my LO to the couch and nursed her. We both fell asleep for 2 more hours.

ugh


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## katrinalorien

Yeah - I really don't want to keep co-sleeping. But its the only way I can assure myself some sleep... so I keep doing it. I don't understand the strange schedules either. I can't figure out what is different from a good night from a bad night. Sometimes the best nights are when she totally crashes and does a 5 hour stretch. But I really don't want to do that to her, she really is completely crashing at that point (when she's been up for like 4 hours or so...)


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## MiniKiwi

Just venting :(

Mia just set a new record for the shortest nap ever - 8 minutes. These naps are making me so insane. My whole life is trying to make her nap. I find myself bouncing when she's not in my arms :wacko:


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## Shadowy Lady

I had a night off so I took a Melatonin and went to bed in a separate room in the basement and my DH took charge with bottles of ebm. I did sleep from 9 pm to 2 am, but was up after that :/ no idea why!!! I didn't even hear the baby, I just could not sleep. So finally it was day time and I came back upstairs totally drained.

I'm starting to think I have a serious problem...or I'll die from sleep deprivation or something :( Not sure what else to try to get some sleep...being obsessed with sleep now and my bed scares me...


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## lysh

Sleep continues to be unpredictable on our end. Last night was one of the better nights...she slept from 6:40-11:40! That is the first 5 hour stretch she has ever done. Then she had a 3 hour stretch. After that it went downhill, but that was not too bad! 

Our bedtime keeps getting earlier though. Tonight we had to put her down at 6- she had her last nap at around 2:30 (only slept for 20 minutes) and would not go back down. Obviously she was so tired that we just had to put her down. Now it is 30 minutes later and she is fighting sleep. ugh

I start work this Tuesday- should be fun.


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## Noelle610

Shadowy Lady said:


> I had a night off so I took a Melatonin and went to bed in a separate room in the basement and my DH took charge with bottles of ebm. I did sleep from 9 pm to 2 am, but was up after that :/ no idea why!!! I didn't even hear the baby, I just could not sleep. So finally it was day time and I came back upstairs totally drained.
> 
> I'm starting to think I have a serious problem...or I'll die from sleep deprivation or something :( Not sure what else to try to get some sleep...being obsessed with sleep now and my bed scares me...

Melatonin helps me fall asleep at the beginning of the night, but it doesn't help me return to sleep after I wake. I totally sympathize! Do you think you're suffering from some postpartum anxiety? That can make sleep difficult. I too get really worried about not being able to sleep. I feel like it can't be healthy to sleep so little!


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## Noelle610

lysh said:


> Sleep continues to be unpredictable on our end. Last night was one of the better nights...she slept from 6:40-11:40! That is the first 5 hour stretch she has ever done. Then she had a 3 hour stretch. After that it went downhill, but that was not too bad!
> 
> Our bedtime keeps getting earlier though. Tonight we had to put her down at 6- she had her last nap at around 2:30 (only slept for 20 minutes) and would not go back down. Obviously she was so tired that we just had to put her down. Now it is 30 minutes later and she is fighting sleep. ugh
> 
> I start work this Tuesday- should be fun.

Wow, a 5 hour stretch! That's wonderful. 

I think it's natural for bedtime to get earlier... My LO has been going to bed at 6pm recently because it's also hard to get her to take that third nap.


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## Noelle610

So our trip went okay. Naps were very tough to come by. Although my father in law watched LO one day and of course she slept for 2.5 hours! She loves him. Not sure how he did it. 

Sleep was up and down. Charlotte probably woke an average of 3 times per night, which I don't think is terrible considering she was in a strange place. I did a lot of feeding and soothing to sleep, so I imagine we'll have a bit of a backslide now that we are home. 

I just feel like I need to do something different, but I don't know what! I feel like I continue doing the same thing and expecting different results and it's not going to happen. She's not magically going to STTN. I suspect trying to space feedings is the answer, but I'm concerned about messing with something that works.


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## polaris

Noelle610 said:


> So our trip went okay. Naps were very tough to come by. Although my father in law watched LO one day and of course she slept for 2.5 hours! She loves him. Not sure how he did it.
> 
> Sleep was up and down. Charlotte probably woke an average of 3 times per night, which I don't think is terrible considering she was in a strange place. I did a lot of feeding and soothing to sleep, so I imagine we'll have a bit of a backslide now that we are home.
> 
> I just feel like I need to do something different, but I don't know what! I feel like I continue doing the same thing and expecting different results and it's not going to happen. She's not magically going to STTN. I suspect trying to space feedings is the answer, but I'm concerned about messing with something that works.

Hi Noelle, just to say that even if you don't do anything she will eventually magically sleep through the night. It just might take a bit longer. My son started sleeping through at nine and a half months, just as I had been starting to wonder whether I should do something about his night feeds and try to encourage him to sleep through. I think as long as your LO can self-settle, they will eventually grow out of needing milk at night and they will sleep through in the end.


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## Shadowy Lady

Noelle610 said:


> Shadowy Lady said:
> 
> 
> I had a night off so I took a Melatonin and went to bed in a separate room in the basement and my DH took charge with bottles of ebm. I did sleep from 9 pm to 2 am, but was up after that :/ no idea why!!! I didn't even hear the baby, I just could not sleep. So finally it was day time and I came back upstairs totally drained.
> 
> I'm starting to think I have a serious problem...or I'll die from sleep deprivation or something :( Not sure what else to try to get some sleep...being obsessed with sleep now and my bed scares me...
> 
> Melatonin helps me fall asleep at the beginning of the night, but it doesn't help me return to sleep after I wake. I totally sympathize! *Do you think you're suffering from some postpartum anxiety? * That can make sleep difficult. I too get really worried about not being able to sleep. I feel like it can't be healthy to sleep so little!Click to expand...

I was suffering from anxiety earlier on but not now which is why I wonder how I cannot sleep:wacko: My doctor said my condition is more hormonal. I did finally sleep last night though as my DH took charge for one more night. I went downstairs at 8:30 pm (sofia was asleep by 8). I ended up sleeping from 9 pm to 6:30 am. I did wake up maybe 4 times briefly but each time i went right down to sleep:happydance: hope this trend can continue.

My DH said sofia again had two night wakings: one at 2:00 am and one at 5:30 am. Again she barely ate at 2:00 but she did at 5:30 am. Why is she waking up if she doesn't wanna eat? How do I eliminate her 2 am call? She used to not wake up till 4:30 before but the teething and the cold messed with her night routine....is there a way to get her to not wake up if she's not hungry anyway?


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## bananaz

Noelle610 said:


> So our trip went okay. Naps were very tough to come by. Although my father in law watched LO one day and of course she slept for 2.5 hours! She loves him. Not sure how he did it.
> 
> Sleep was up and down. Charlotte probably woke an average of 3 times per night, which I don't think is terrible considering she was in a strange place. I did a lot of feeding and soothing to sleep, so I imagine we'll have a bit of a backslide now that we are home.
> 
> I just feel like I need to do something different, but I don't know what! I feel like I continue doing the same thing and expecting different results and it's not going to happen. She's not magically going to STTN. I suspect trying to space feedings is the answer, but I'm concerned about messing with something that works.

How often is she eating now? I've had a lot of people recommend spacing feedings to me, and when I've managed to do it with my LO (which isn't always easy) it does seem to encourage her to eat more. I don't know that it actually helps with sleep though.

Also, are you giving Charlotte solids on a regular basis? It seems like half the people I talk to say that solids "made" their babies STTN and the other half say it made them wake more :wacko: But if you're trying to up her daytime calorie intake that could help?


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## bananaz

Shadowy Lady said:


> I was suffering from anxiety earlier on but not now which is why I wonder how I cannot sleep:wacko: My doctor said my condition is more hormonal. I did finally sleep last night though as my DH took charge for one more night. I went downstairs at 8:30 pm (sofia was asleep by 8). I ended up sleeping from 9 pm to 6:30 am. I did wake up maybe 4 times briefly but each time i went right down to sleep:happydance: hope this trend can continue.
> 
> My DH said sofia again had two night wakings: one at 2:00 am and one at 5:30 am. Again she barely ate at 2:00 but she did at 5:30 am. Why is she waking up if she doesn't wanna eat? How do I eliminate her 2 am call? She used to not wake up till 4:30 before but the teething and the cold messed with her night routine....is there a way to get her to not wake up if she's not hungry anyway?


Can you resettle her at 2am without feeding her? Ideally you'd do it without picking her up too but if that's not possible, maybe start with rocking and then gradually reduce the amount of time you're holding her? Or you could try PU/PD or shush-pat or something similar? That way she would learn that she can go back to sleep without eating and with only minimal intervention on your part, and then hopefully the 2am waking would go away on its own. But to be fair I don't know if I should be offering advice on eliminating night wakings because I can't do it with my own LO to save my life! :haha:


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## Shadowy Lady

bananaz said:


> Shadowy Lady said:
> 
> 
> I was suffering from anxiety earlier on but not now which is why I wonder how I cannot sleep:wacko: My doctor said my condition is more hormonal. I did finally sleep last night though as my DH took charge for one more night. I went downstairs at 8:30 pm (sofia was asleep by 8). I ended up sleeping from 9 pm to 6:30 am. I did wake up maybe 4 times briefly but each time i went right down to sleep:happydance: hope this trend can continue.
> 
> My DH said sofia again had two night wakings: one at 2:00 am and one at 5:30 am. Again she barely ate at 2:00 but she did at 5:30 am. Why is she waking up if she doesn't wanna eat? How do I eliminate her 2 am call? She used to not wake up till 4:30 before but the teething and the cold messed with her night routine....is there a way to get her to not wake up if she's not hungry anyway?
> 
> 
> Can you resettle her at 2am without feeding her? Ideally you'd do it without picking her up too but if that's not possible, maybe start with rocking and then gradually reduce the amount of time you're holding her? Or you could try PU/PD or shush-pat or something similar? That way she would learn that she can go back to sleep without eating and with only minimal intervention on your part, and then hopefully the 2am waking would go away on its own. But to be fair I don't know if I should be offering advice on eliminating night wakings because I can't do it with my own LO to save my life! :haha:Click to expand...

thanks hunnie :hugs:I will try PU/PD tonight and see. I think she's just waking up outta habit which would be nice to break now. I'm trying to deal with my own insomnia too so her eliminating that random wakeup call would help:thumbup:


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## bananaz

Sleep continues to be a mess for us. My mom has been staying over since Thursday night to help me sort it out but even with her assistance LO has still been up 3-4 times a night. It's been nice to have someone else to share the load though.

The 11pm waking is still the bane of my existence. Some nights all she needs is a backrub or to be handed her stuffed frog and she'll go back to sleep, but other nights she'll cry and be unable to settle until I nurse her back down. 

We set up the video monitor last night and it was interesting to see that she really does try to resettle herself - she'll toss and turn and then hold still for a bit trying to go to sleep before she starts crying again. She did this for an hour and a half last night (with my mom going in regularly to try and soothe her) before I finally just fed her to sleep. 

She has her 6 month check-up tomorrow so I'm going to talk to her pediatrician about it and see if he has any brilliant ideas, but I'm not feeling terribly optimistic at the moment :nope:


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## Noelle610

Shadowy - I have heard there is a hormonal component to postpartum insomnia! I think it's only natural that moms are kind of "on alert" when they have children, but sometimes it's hard to relax. I really hope you get some rest like you did the other night! Sounds like you have a great DH to care for you and that's awesome.

Bananaz, Charlotte eats two or three meals a day, can you believe it?! It's very strange... she also has 35 ounces or so of breast milk or formula. It's almost as if she's making up for lost time now that her reflux has relaxed a bit. She's only 14 pounds! We are seeing a new pediatrician next week and I'm curious to get his take on her night habits. My former pediatrician was really kind and understanding, but she never had definitive answers for me on the sleep issue. I'm curious to see what the new guy says. He's a very popular ped here in Baltimore, but kind of old-school.

Shadowy, there is a technique called "wake to sleep" that is sometimes suggested for habitual wakings. Basically, you would set your alarm for 1am, wake Sophia, and then settle her back to sleep. It sounds totally counter-intuitive IMO, but apparently it helps them transition through the waking they're conditioned to have. I think it supposedly takes a few days, so you'd likely be waking at 1am and 2am for the next week. Not sure I'd be up for that, but it might be worth a try!


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## MrsPear

lysh said:


> Sleep continues to be unpredictable on our end. Last night was one of the better nights...she slept from 6:40-11:40! That is the first 5 hour stretch she has ever done. Then she had a 3 hour stretch. After that it went downhill, but that was not too bad!
> 
> Our bedtime keeps getting earlier though. Tonight we had to put her down at 6- she had her last nap at around 2:30 (only slept for 20 minutes) and would not go back down. Obviously she was so tired that we just had to put her down. Now it is 30 minutes later and she is fighting sleep. ugh
> 
> I start work this Tuesday- should be fun.

5 hours then three hours is great! I find it reassuring whenever joni has a good night like that even if it isn't repeated because it tells me she can do it.

Noelle I truly believe they will just one day STTN. Your lo is like joni- will have random good nights, so one day I reckon you will have a random FULL night sleep.

We had a terrible week this week. I was actually too sad and tired to write on here. We were up more than hourly. Then last night she slept 3 hours then 4 hours (then up every 20 minutes although she was settling back to sleep until 8am) so I feel a lot better.

Oh was so tired he went to get some washing out of the washing machine but arrived back in the room with no washing but wearing coat and shoes ready to go out! I couldn't stop laughing at him. And he's the one who sleeps through most of it!!!

Xx


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## Noelle610

MrsPear, sorry you had such a rough week! Very funny about your OH though... I'm hoping we can all look back on this time and laugh a little when we're getting more sleep.


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## lysh

We have not had another big 5 hr stretch of sleep since the other night. Instead she is waking every hour for the first 3 -4 hours. After that she is doing better with 3 hour stretches, but the beginning is hard. To top it off, last night we were giving her 5 minutes to see if she would resettle before going in and she managed to flip onto her stomach and get her two legs through the bars. Her cry changed and I heard DH running up the stairs (he had the video monitor). Needless to say we are making a trip today to get the mesh bumper pad. I could barely sleep the rest of the night as I kept checking the monitor. 

Tomorrow I start back at work...trying to stay calm emotionally. Hopefully DD will gift me with a decent night.

Noelle- I am having a hard time spacing feedings. For the most part we have made it to 3 hour increments, but still unpredictable.

Bananaz- Good luck....the back and forth good nights/bad nights are exhausting!

Shadowylady- Not bad for your LO!!!!


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## Noelle610

Lysh, I hated that phase of rolling and flipping. UGH. It will pass... my LO is a tummy sleeper now. The mesh bumpers helped us a lot.


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## Shadowy Lady

Bananaz - it's good that your mom is there are least. I think I may spend some time at my folks this week coz my DH has to work overtime. Good luck with the 6 months check, some paediatricians are gold, though mine is just meh...

Noelle - wow that method sounds more exhausting haha...I'll see if I have to resort to it. You're right I feel it may form another bad habit.

Lysh - eeek, my friends baby was doing that too. The mesh bumper pads really helped her though. I think I will go buy some from now lol!

So Sofia had another good night but her mommy didn't :( I took the melatonin at 8 after I put Sofia to bed and I went to sleep at 9. I did fall asleep quickly but I woke up randomly at 10, 11:30 and 12:45 :/ Not sure why..arghhhhh!!! Sofia only woke up at 3 am for a feed, ate and went back down till 7:00 am. I'm not sure if this Melatonin is working for me. It makes me sleepy but it doesn't stop the night wakings :(


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## MrsPear

Shadowy Lady said:


> Bananaz - it's good that your mom is there are least. I think I may spend some time at my folks this week coz my DH has to work overtime. Good luck with the 6 months check, some paediatricians are gold, though mine is just meh...
> 
> Noelle - wow that method sounds more exhausting haha...I'll see if I have to resort to it. You're right I feel it may form another bad habit.
> 
> Lysh - eeek, my friends baby was doing that too. The mesh bumper pads really helped her though. I think I will go buy some from now lol!
> 
> So Sofia had another good night but her mommy didn't :( I took the melatonin at 8 after I put Sofia to bed and I went to sleep at 9. I did fall asleep quickly but I woke up randomly at 10, 11:30 and 12:45 :/ Not sure why..arghhhhh!!! Sofia only woke up at 3 am for a feed, ate and went back down till 7:00 am. I'm not sure if this Melatonin is working for me. It makes me sleepy but it doesn't stop the night wakings :(

That is so annoying that you can't sleep even when sofia has a good night :hugs: I sometimes feel that way too. I just hope (and for you too) that as our lo's get older they will be more predictable so we will not be so anxious and on high alert in the night. I feel so much better knowing other people have felt the same, I think everyone on here has had trouble sleeping, so stupid, we wait so long to get the chance then we lie awake waiting for them to wake up anyway!

Joni slept AMAZINGLY last night!! She pooped at 11so I changed her and fed her, and she must have been back asleep by 11:30, then next time was nearly 5am!!!!she has never ever done that before. I changed her nappy 3 times between 5am & 8am (she LOVES to poo) so there wasn't any more great sleep, but still, we made it to nearly six hours :flower: I am crossing my fingers that when we wean her she might (maybe? Hopefully?!) start pooping less because I don't think she would have woken at 11 or 5 otherwise. 

After such an awful week last week, I am so cheered today.


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## Noelle610

That's GREAT MrsPear! Why is she pooping so much? Have you mentioned it to your ped? That certainly seems like a lot!


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## MrsPear

Noelle610 said:


> That's GREAT MrsPear! Why is she pooping so much? Have you mentioned it to your ped? That certainly seems like a lot!

I am not sure but I think that breastfeeding can go either way...it's normal for some breastfed babies to go days without because they are digesting it all and then others will never slow down after the newborn stage. I did see a thread in breastfeeding section a while ago called something like "whose baby has never stopped pooping after every feed" and there were quite a few people commenting on it...that was when joni was still newborn though so I smugly thought 'I'm sure she'll never be one of them.'...hahaha little did I know!!


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## lysh

mrspear- It is great you had a good night!

shadowy lady- I hope you can sleep soon- that has got to be so frustrating!


----------



## Noelle610

MrsPear said:


> Noelle610 said:
> 
> 
> That's GREAT MrsPear! Why is she pooping so much? Have you mentioned it to your ped? That certainly seems like a lot!
> 
> I am not sure but I think that breastfeeding can go either way...it's normal for some breastfed babies to go days without because they are digesting it all and then others will never slow down after the newborn stage. I did see a thread in breastfeeding section a while ago called something like "whose baby has never stopped pooping after every feed" and there were quite a few people commenting on it...that was when joni was still newborn though so I smugly thought 'I'm sure she'll never be one of them.'...hahaha little did I know!!Click to expand...

Lucky you :)

One of the reasons I want to feed less at night - besides the obvious hope that she'll stop waking for it! - is that I think the gas and wet diapers that come along with it cause additional wakings.


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## polaris

MrsPear said:


> Noelle610 said:
> 
> 
> That's GREAT MrsPear! Why is she pooping so much? Have you mentioned it to your ped? That certainly seems like a lot!
> 
> I am not sure but I think that breastfeeding can go either way...it's normal for some breastfed babies to go days without because they are digesting it all and then others will never slow down after the newborn stage. I did see a thread in breastfeeding section a while ago called something like "whose baby has never stopped pooping after every feed" and there were quite a few people commenting on it...that was when joni was still newborn though so I smugly thought 'I'm sure she'll never be one of them.'...hahaha little did I know!!Click to expand...

My son was like this, he always did lots of poos every day. My daughter is the opposite, she only has a poo about once a week now!


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## Noelle610

I'm tired today. Charlotte was up quite a bit last night - 10pm (feed), 12:30am (resettle), 3:30am (feed), multiple times between 5am and 6am. Much better than the hourly wakings we were suffering from when I started this thread, but I just wish things would turn a corner. I can't understand why her sleep hasn't really improved at all in 3 months. We just go back and forth. 

I just got Ferber's book from the library, the latest edition. I'm skeptical it will help us, though, as she really can self-settle. I put her to bed awake almost every night. The only thing I can think of doing is further disassociating the feeding experience with sleep by giving her a bottle before her bath in our bedtime routine. I did skim the book last night and it has some gentle tips for night weaning, but I'm not entirely convinced she would sleep through if she wasn't eating at night. On a side note, I think it's interesting that Ferber gets such a bad rap. He does suggest controlled crying, but most of the book is pretty gentle. Even if you're not into CC, there's some good info on the "how" of babies' sleep.

The only thing I can think of that may be bothering her is reflux. We go to the ped today and I'm anxious to discuss it. It's also one of the reasons I'm anxious to night wean. I think that the more she eats at night, the more she is bothered by reflux, gas and wet diapers. I am of the belief that most babies need night feeds at least until around 9 months, but I think it's a vicious cycle for us. I just keep thinking about how yucky I feel going to bed right after eating a cheeseburger, since I have a sensitive stomach.

I just don't want to be tired anymore. I can't wait until this phase is over, even if she's five before that happens! Everyone keeps telling me, "Oh, you will still be tired when she's a teenager" or whatever, but surely one must feel well-rested if they can get 6 hours straight of sleep or whatever?! Those anecdotes are not really helpful LOL. I think it's very hard for people with "easy" babies to understand how difficult this is.  Maybe I'm just sensitive, but I feel they must think I'm doing something "wrong". I hate getting advice these days. My DH's best friends let both of their kids CIO at 6 weeks old and are encouraging us to do so.

The lack of sleep has been so stressful on my relationship. I have an awesome husband, but he's convinced that CIO is the way to go right now. I think he just sees how difficult the sleepless nights are for me and he "wants our life back". He feels sleep training will achieve this. He misses me being energetic and excited about my job. He misses spending time with me at night since I often go to bed at 7:30pm! I'm not against sleep training, but until we get night feeds and reflux resolved I don't think it's the appropriate solution for us.


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## jessicatunnel

Noelle, I'm so sorry you had a rough night. I've suggested CC for Lilly and we tried it once and neither hubby or I could go through with it, I just don't think that or CIO is the solution for us. I've been thinking about night weaning Lilly, but like you, I think she will just wake up because she's hungry. It's so hard to tell because some nights she drinks her whole bottle(s), some night she only has two oz. Maybe that's the sign telling me I shouldn't wean her off of night feedings yet?

As for our night last night, she went to bed at 7:30pm (Later than normal because she had a late nap) and she woke five times before 11pm. She went back to sleep at 11:10pm, and slept until FIVE!!!!!!!!!!!!! OMG. :happy dance: I feel so rested! She had her bottle at 5am, and slept until 7:30am where she was up for the day. 

Also she's been waking up when I put her down lately, but she looks around, wiggles a little, and goes back to sleep without my help. YAY!


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## katrinalorien

Noelle - I haven't been on lately so I haven't seen everyone's progress/regression but I feel you about this. Lately with all the traveling (and today we have shot day!) Last night was awful, and I feel like I have no life again! Of course, min is only 4 months, not 6, but I plan on talking to the ped today when we go as well. Although I can't really start anything today because of the shots. It always seems like there is something... But like you I can put Lily down awake (although its only sometimes, not all the time) and she will self settle but it doesn't matter, she wakes anyway. 

I hope the holidays haven't messed anyone else's schedule up. I really don't know what we're going to do, I really want to stop cosleeping but its the only way I get any sleep. Thankfully for my birthday my DH got me the angelcare monitor, because Lily sleeps on her stomach and I wasn't sleeping, just holding my hand over her monitoring her breathing. I know the angelcare doesn't prevent SIDS but it does basically constantly monitor breathing. 

Ah well we have our ped appointment today, so I will talk to him about it. He doesn't expect babies to sleep through till 6 months, but surely he expects more than 45 min at a time. (Although as I'm typing this, she's doing her final "night sleep" and its been at least an hour and a half) 

I actually think SHE sleeps better without me, her room is a little warmer and I don't let her sleep on her stomach when she co-sleeps. 

Anyway good luck everyone, sorry for the long post


----------



## Noelle610

Jessica, what a wonderful night! So glad you got a long stretch of sleep. That's awesome.

Katrina, I really hope your ped is helpful. It's hard when they are not in your shoes and don't understand how desperate you must feel.

I just got back from our appointment. The good news is that Charlotte is doing GREAT on all of her milestones and weight gain in particular, which is so nice considering her reflux. The pediatrician told us absolutely not to feed her between midnight and 5am. He said any time outside this window was fine, but that we should try comforting her in other ways in that midnight to 5am window. He feels she'll stop waking if we do tihs, but I'm not so sure! I guess we can give it a go and see how she does.


----------



## Shadowy Lady

Jessica - glad you finally got a bit of a break. Hope it continues on for you guys.

Noelle - seems reasonable to me about the lack of feeding between 12-5. My ped said the same thing would apply for Sofia when she's 4months+. Also I agree about Ferber's book. I do not understand why he gets such bad rep, I'm quite enjoying his book in fact though haven't used any of the methods yet (Sofia's too young). Ferber is incredibly popular in Ottawa, Canada where I live btw.

Katrina - good luck with your pedi appt, I keep my fingers crossed for you guys.

Sofia had an ok night, not as good as previous night though. She went down at 8 pm, but needed her soother at 11:15 pm. Then she slept till 1:30 am when she needed to feed. After that down till 5:00 am. So ya not as great as usual but not terrible. The good news is I had a much better time. I slept on the opposite side of the bed so I couldn't check her monitor so I actually slept until she woke up each time :) I feel much more rested today and looking forward to my boot camp this afternoon.

Tonight I'll be staying with my folks (and tomorrow night as well) as DH is working overtime. Hope the transition from crib to Pack n Play won't affect Sofia's sleep.


----------



## katrinalorien

Shadowy - So glad you got some sleep!! I will have to get Lily used to a pack n play too, later, when we go on vacation. I'm really really nervous about it!

Noelle - hope that advice works for you, at least she will get used to eating at those times, and maybe you will be able to find another way to soothe her to sleep. 

Jessica - sounds like things are definitely going in the right direction for you.

Got back from the ped appointment. I tried to put it really nicely, and he said not to feed her every hour, but to find another way to get her back to sleep, and warned me that she would really really fuss. He said I could fight this battle now or later, but it would be easier to fight it now, because I'm more likely to win. He told me to do this during the day AND night, and that if I want her to stop waking to nurse back to sleep, then I have to just stop nursing her to sleep, and it will break itself. He's really a nice guy, but he did tell me that if she's feeding every 3 hours or so during the day, she probably needs it at night too. The only thing is that I don't know if she IS feeding that much during the day, since she really only feeds right before a nap. Anyway, if I stop feeding her to sleep I suppose that what she really needs will show itself.


----------



## bananaz

Noelle610 said:


> I just got back from our appointment. The good news is that Charlotte is doing GREAT on all of her milestones and weight gain in particular, which is so nice considering her reflux. The pediatrician told us absolutely not to feed her between midnight and 5am. He said any time outside this window was fine, but that we should try comforting her in other ways in that midnight to 5am window. He feels she'll stop waking if we do tihs, but I'm not so sure! I guess we can give it a go and see how she does.

That's interesting. So he thinks it's okay to feed before midnight? Did he say why that particular window?

I also was surprised about what a bad rap Ferber gets after I read his book (and I read the old version, I've heard the new version is even gentler). There was a lot of useful info in there and I thought he was actually quite thoughtful and sensitive when it came to the CC discussion.

Elsie had her 6 month appointment yesterday, and her new pediatrician recommended gradually lengthening my initial response time to her wakings, starting with 15 minutes and then adding 5-15 minutes every night. He said after that I can go in and soothe her like usual. So I guess it's kind of a toned-down version of Ferber? He also said that at 6 months she doesn't need to eat at all during the night and that she has me "trained" right now :dohh:

Last night was rough. She woke at 11:30 and she just wouldn't settle - it would seem like she was going to sleep but then she'd pop awake a couple minutes later. I watched on the video monitor as she literally did laps around the perimeter of her crib! At 12:30 I gave in and fed her for a few minutes. She was still awake when I put her back down and she squawked a little but then she FINALLY went back to sleep and stayed down until 3. 

She eats well during the day and goes down with a full belly so I know I shouldn't keep feeding her so early in the night but how long am I supposed to let her cry while I try to soothe her other ways? I'm pretty sure she could go for 2+ hours at least.


----------



## bananaz

*Shadowy Lady* - I'm so glad you are sleeping better! I hope your LO does well in the pack'n'play.

*katrina* - Good luck with stopping the feeding to sleep, I know it's not an easy thing to do but it will be worth it if your kiddo starts sleeping better.

*jessica* - So glad you had a good night!! Sounds like Lilly is making progress, yay!


----------



## Noelle610

bananaz said:


> Noelle610 said:
> 
> 
> I just got back from our appointment. The good news is that Charlotte is doing GREAT on all of her milestones and weight gain in particular, which is so nice considering her reflux. The pediatrician told us absolutely not to feed her between midnight and 5am. He said any time outside this window was fine, but that we should try comforting her in other ways in that midnight to 5am window. He feels she'll stop waking if we do tihs, but I'm not so sure! I guess we can give it a go and see how she does.
> 
> That's interesting. So he thinks it's okay to feed before midnight? Did he say why that particular window?
> 
> I also was surprised about what a bad rap Ferber gets after I read his book (and I read the old version, I've heard the new version is even gentler). There was a lot of useful info in there and I thought he was actually quite thoughtful and sensitive when it came to the CC discussion.
> 
> Elsie had her 6 month appointment yesterday, and her new pediatrician recommended gradually lengthening my initial response time to her wakings, starting with 15 minutes and then adding 5-15 minutes every night. He said after that I can go in and soothe her like usual. So I guess it's kind of a toned-down version of Ferber? He also said that at 6 months she doesn't need to eat at all during the night and that she has me "trained" right now :dohh:
> 
> Last night was rough. She woke at 11:30 and she just wouldn't settle - it would seem like she was going to sleep but then she'd pop awake a couple minutes later. I watched on the video monitor as she literally did laps around the perimeter of her crib! At 12:30 I gave in and fed her for a few minutes. She was still awake when I put her back down and she squawked a little but then she FINALLY went back to sleep and stayed down until 3.
> 
> She eats well during the day and goes down with a full belly so I know I shouldn't keep feeding her so early in the night but how long am I supposed to let her cry while I try to soothe her other ways? I'm pretty sure she could go for 2+ hours at least.Click to expand...

It's a weird time, isn't it? If she doesn't wake before midnight she essentially has to go all night, but if she wakes at 10pm it's fine? I should have asked, but I think it has to do with the medical definition of STTN and encouraging her to fast for a long stretch when DH and I actually want to sleep. He too suggested the wait time - he said 10 minutes is appropriate at 6 months old. I don't disagree, but it feels sooo long in the middle of the night. My ped said we were trained too. He essentially said that if you ate in the middle of the night, every night, you would continue being hungry at that time until you gave up the habit... which does kind of make some sense. 

Agree on Ferber! The chapter I just read actually strongly discourages total extinction, full CIO... Interesting.

Charlotte eats so, so well during the day. I know she won't starve, I guess I'm just worried about going cold turkey, like it might be cruel. I guess it can't hurt to try and just trust my instincts as I do it. I too wonder how long a soothing session could go on for!


----------



## MiniKiwi

Noelle610 said:


> I hate getting advice these days. My DH's best friends let both of their kids CIO at 6 weeks old and are encouraging us to do so.
> 
> The lack of sleep has been so stressful on my relationship. I have an awesome husband, but he's convinced that CIO is the way to go right now. I think he just sees how difficult the sleepless nights are for me and he "wants our life back". He feels sleep training will achieve this. He misses me being energetic and excited about my job. He misses spending time with me at night since I often go to bed at 7:30pm! I'm not against sleep training, but until we get night feeds and reflux resolved I don't think it's the appropriate solution for us.

This is happening to me at the moment. A friend yesterday mentioned CIO to my OH and when we got home he asked me when we're going to take a different approach to Mini's sleeping, as in, when are we going to get tough and stop with the hours of rocking and let her cry. I'm quite anti CIO yet this morning I found myself thinking about it and thinking it really wouldn't be that bad :wacko: I never fight with OH, we just get on with it but this morning is a different story :(

I'm so over all of this :cry:

Do any of you have babies that sleep ok at night but freak out once it's nap time? Yesterday Mia fought all her naps until 5pm when she passed out for 1.5 hours. That was nice but it meant hours of crying and rocking prior to it


----------



## MiniKiwi

jessicatunnel said:


> As for our night last night, she went to bed at 7:30pm (Later than normal because she had a late nap) and she woke five times before 11pm. She went back to sleep at 11:10pm, and slept until FIVE!!!!!!!!!!!!! OMG. :happy dance: I feel so rested! She had her bottle at 5am, and slept until 7:30am where she was up for the day.
> 
> Also she's been waking up when I put her down lately, but she looks around, wiggles a little, and goes back to sleep without my help. YAY!

:happydance: Heh I bet you thought you were in for a rough night after the early wakings, no?! Way to go, Lilly!



Shadowy Lady said:


> Sofia had an ok night, not as good as previous night though. She went down at 8 pm, but needed her soother at 11:15 pm. Then she slept till 1:30 am when she needed to feed. After that down till 5:00 am. So ya not as great as usual but not terrible. The good news is I had a much better time. I slept on the opposite side of the bed so I couldn't check her monitor so I actually slept until she woke up each time :) I feel much more rested today and looking forward to my boot camp this afternoon.
> 
> Tonight I'll be staying with my folks (and tomorrow night as well) as DH is working overtime. Hope the transition from crib to Pack n Play won't affect Sofia's sleep.

That sounds great :thumbup: Glad you're managing to get some sleep now too :)


----------



## Noelle610

MiniKiwi said:


> Noelle610 said:
> 
> 
> I hate getting advice these days. My DH's best friends let both of their kids CIO at 6 weeks old and are encouraging us to do so.
> 
> The lack of sleep has been so stressful on my relationship. I have an awesome husband, but he's convinced that CIO is the way to go right now. I think he just sees how difficult the sleepless nights are for me and he "wants our life back". He feels sleep training will achieve this. He misses me being energetic and excited about my job. He misses spending time with me at night since I often go to bed at 7:30pm! I'm not against sleep training, but until we get night feeds and reflux resolved I don't think it's the appropriate solution for us.
> 
> This is happening to me at the moment. A friend yesterday mentioned CIO to my OH and when we got home he asked me when we're going to take a different approach to Mini's sleeping, as in, when are we going to get tough and stop with the hours of rocking and let her cry. I'm quite anti CIO yet this morning I found myself thinking about it and thinking it really wouldn't be that bad :wacko: I never fight with OH, we just get on with it but this morning is a different story :(
> 
> I'm so over all of this :cry:
> 
> Do any of you have babies that sleep ok at night but freak out once it's nap time? Yesterday Mia fought all her naps until 5pm when she passed out for 1.5 hours. That was nice but it meant hours of crying and rocking prior to itClick to expand...

It's so hard. I think husbands are wonderful, but they generally have a different type of attachment to their children. If you are really at the end of your rope, I think there is gentle sleep training you could try... like no rocking or bouncing, but soothing Mia from the side of her crib. It's a tough call. You know her best! I'm over this too. Big hugs!


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## Noelle610

katrinalorien said:


> Got back from the ped appointment. I tried to put it really nicely, and he said not to feed her every hour, but to find another way to get her back to sleep, and warned me that she would really really fuss. He said I could fight this battle now or later, but it would be easier to fight it now, because I'm more likely to win. He told me to do this during the day AND night, and that if I want her to stop waking to nurse back to sleep, then I have to just stop nursing her to sleep, and it will break itself. He's really a nice guy, but he did tell me that if she's feeding every 3 hours or so during the day, she probably needs it at night too. The only thing is that I don't know if she IS feeding that much during the day, since she really only feeds right before a nap. Anyway, if I stop feeding her to sleep I suppose that what she really needs will show itself.

Katrina I think your doctor gives good advice. I know it will be hard to break the habit, just like will be for me! I'm telling myself to give it 3 days to see if there's any improvement. Maybe we can motivate each other!


----------



## MiniKiwi

Thanks Noelle. I really have had enough :cry: I have tried soothing her through the bars but she goes apeshit. I could definitely give it another go though, thank you. Ughhhh. I usually feel ok about it all, today is just a bad day. I was talking to my mum about it last night and she asked me if I think OH and I have spoiled her :growlmad::growlmad::growlmad::dohh:

Hope things get better quickly for us all :hugs:


----------



## katrinalorien

Noelle610 said:


> katrinalorien said:
> 
> 
> Got back from the ped appointment. I tried to put it really nicely, and he said not to feed her every hour, but to find another way to get her back to sleep, and warned me that she would really really fuss. He said I could fight this battle now or later, but it would be easier to fight it now, because I'm more likely to win. He told me to do this during the day AND night, and that if I want her to stop waking to nurse back to sleep, then I have to just stop nursing her to sleep, and it will break itself. He's really a nice guy, but he did tell me that if she's feeding every 3 hours or so during the day, she probably needs it at night too. The only thing is that I don't know if she IS feeding that much during the day, since she really only feeds right before a nap. Anyway, if I stop feeding her to sleep I suppose that what she really needs will show itself.
> 
> Katrina I think your doctor gives good advice. I know it will be hard to break the habit, just like will be for me! I'm telling myself to give it 3 days to see if there's any improvement. Maybe we can motivate each other!Click to expand...


I'm definitely going to need the motivating, I'm such a wimp. Especially when those tears start to roll down.... :cry:

I'm much better with the angry cry. 

But not today, because she got her shots and she's not feeling well anyway today.


----------



## Noelle610

MiniKiwi said:


> Thanks Noelle. I really have had enough :cry: I have tried soothing her through the bars but she goes apeshit. I could definitely give it another go though, thank you. Ughhhh. I usually feel ok about it all, today is just a bad day. I was talking to my mum about it last night and she asked me if I think OH and I have spoiled her :growlmad::growlmad::growlmad::dohh:
> 
> Hope things get better quickly for us all :hugs:

Mine does the same thing! UGH it's so hard! I'm really going to try to do the soothing/not feeding between midnight and 5am for 3 days. I really want to give it a good try before giving up... but my resolve is not there at 2am!

I have days where I feel like "this too shall pass" and I have a great sense of humor. Then I have days where I just feel so defeated, so I really understand. I hate that old "spoiling" myth... my family accuses me of the same! :wacko:


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## MiniKiwi

I know it seems a strange thing to do but I was posting in this thread the other day and the woman's baby was waking hourly until she gave water in the night instead.

I know I wouldn't do that cause in the night my LO wakes for genuine reasons but maybe for some it's worth a try? I'm not sure if this is bad advice :haha: I just know that anything seems like a good idea when they won't sleep :shrug:


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## Noelle610

MiniKiwi, I've heard that the water can work if they don't really need the calories! I think the reason is that it fills their belly and helps them go back to sleep, but it's calorie free so they are still shifting their calories to take in more in the daytime?

Katrina, my LO slept almost all night after her 4 month shots. Hope you get some rest like I did!


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## jessicatunnel

Oh my gosh guys, Lilly slept seven straight hours last night! It was bliss!! My hubby actually woke me up at about 1am to go check on Lilly, lol. 
I'm so hopeful now, the night before she slept six hours, last night she slept seven, we're finally getting somewhere! I don't want to speak too soon though! :haha:


----------



## Noelle610

jessicatunnel said:


> Oh my gosh guys, Lilly slept seven straight hours last night! It was bliss!! My hubby actually woke me up at about 1am to go check on Lilly, lol.
> I'm so hopeful now, the night before she slept six hours, last night she slept seven, we're finally getting somewhere! I don't want to speak too soon though! :haha:

That's awesome! Charlotte slept from 7pm to 11pm and then 11pm to 6am! I'm pretty sure it was the shots she got at her 6 month appointment, though... She slept very well after her 4 month shots too. Fingers crossed it's not a coinicidence though!


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## mrsbeano

Well done Charlotte! She STTN!! She will get there. Definitely listen to your Drs advice. I really listen to the cry at night and only go if he sounds upset. If its quiet or a shout I leave him to it. Last night he woke at one but went back over again after 10 minutes or so. 

Fingers crossed for good nights again tonight. 

I think the 12-5 thing is the 'core night' if you want to read on that.

Quinn's currently doing a week of good followed by a week of bad haha x


----------



## Noelle610

mrsbeano said:


> Well done Charlotte! She STTN!! She will get there. Definitely listen to your Drs advice. I really listen to the cry at night and only go if he sounds upset. If its quiet or a shout I leave him to it. Last night he woke at one but went back over again after 10 minutes or so.
> 
> Fingers crossed for good nights again tonight.
> 
> I think the 12-5 thing is the 'core night' if you want to read on that.
> 
> Quinn's currently doing a week of good followed by a week of bad haha x

I'm a proud mama! I'm definitely going to listen to the doctor. My gut tells me he knows what he is talking about. I promised myself to give it at least a week to see if it's working. It's so easy to give up when you're tired.

A week of good is better than all bad! I bet you see more consistancy as Quinn approaches 6 months. A lot of my girlfriends have had that experience :)


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## bananaz

jessicatunnel said:


> Oh my gosh guys, Lilly slept seven straight hours last night! It was bliss!! My hubby actually woke me up at about 1am to go check on Lilly, lol.
> I'm so hopeful now, the night before she slept six hours, last night she slept seven, we're finally getting somewhere! I don't want to speak too soon though! :haha:




Noelle610 said:


> That's awesome! Charlotte slept from 7pm to 11pm and then 11pm to 6am! I'm pretty sure it was the shots she got at her 6 month appointment, though... She slept very well after her 4 month shots too. Fingers crossed it's not a coinicidence though!

Holy crap, that's great for both of you. I really hope it keeps up. jessica - have you been changing anything aside from reducing her night feeds?

Elsie's schedule was way off yesterday and she ended up deciding to go to bed for the night at 5:30 :wacko: She then woke at 10, 12 and 3:40 and got up for the day at 6. So while it wasn't a fantastic night for me, she got a full 12 hours and she hasn't done that in a long time. I'm wondering if maybe she needs an earlier bedtime? I think I might try putting her down at 7pm tonight and see how it goes.


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## katrinalorien

Jessica - wow congrats!!

Noelle - I hope it wasn't an accident. Lily didn't have a great night last night, so maybe yours will not be an accident!!

Bananaz - I found that Lily really needs a bedtime at around 7:30, although I wanted it to be 8:30 at first. Hopefully that really helps you.


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## bananaz

katrinalorien said:


> Bananaz - I found that Lily really needs a bedtime at around 7:30, although I wanted it to be 8:30 at first. Hopefully that really helps you.


Yeah, her bedtime has been slowly creeping up as she's gotten older and it's been at 7:30 for a while now so I'm thinking maybe it needs to move again. I miss the days when she went to bed at 9:30pm and woke for the day at 9am! :haha:


----------



## Noelle610

bananaz said:


> Elsie's schedule was way off yesterday and she ended up deciding to go to bed for the night at 5:30 :wacko: She then woke at 10, 12 and 3:40 and got up for the day at 6. So while it wasn't a fantastic night for me, she got a full 12 hours and she hasn't done that in a long time. I'm wondering if maybe she needs an earlier bedtime? I think I might try putting her down at 7pm tonight and see how it goes.

How many naps does she take? When Charlotte dropped her 4th nap (she takes 2 or 3 now) she really needed an earlier bedtime. It's not exact every day, but between 6pm and 7pm depending on the time of the last nap and how fussy she is seems to work well for us.


----------



## jessicatunnel

Bananaz, I haven't changed anything. She's still having 2 bottles at night, sometimes only one, but haven't changed anything during the day. We 'technically' started her on solids about two weeks ago but I haven't been very good about it and she's literally only had like three "meals". Hah. 
Also yesterday we had to go to this meeting so she was up past her bedtime of 6:30pm, and didnt actually go to bed until 8, but then she woke up at 9pm and 10pm before going the seven hours. I'm kind of thinking her bedtime is too early so going to try keeping her up until 7:30 or 8 for the next few nights and see if that helps at all.


----------



## aliss

I feel like utter shit today! Up every 20 minutes to 'feed' roll: dealing with cluster issues) and then Alex stripped naked at 1am, pissed all over the bed, I had to get up & change the bed with a screaming newborn, brought Alex into bed, he kept smacking at me and wouldn't sleep, the baby kept waking him up, argggh..... but then finally got in a good 3:30-6:30am.

I swear these boys are tag-teaming me. Why are they trying to kill me? I have no inheritance for them yet???


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## katrinalorien

Well.. here goes then. Its nap 1 of day 1 of no nursing to sleep anymore. :( Here we go. I expect it will take a couple weeks... uuuggghh thank goodness for this thread.


----------



## Noelle610

aliss said:


> I feel like utter shit today! Up every 20 minutes to 'feed' roll: dealing with cluster issues) and then Alex stripped naked at 1am, pissed all over the bed, I had to get up & change the bed with a screaming newborn, brought Alex into bed, he kept smacking at me and wouldn't sleep, the baby kept waking him up, argggh..... but then finally got in a good 3:30-6:30am.
> 
> I swear these boys are tag-teaming me. Why are they trying to kill me? I have no inheritance for them yet???

Sounds utterly exhausting, Aliss! I don't know how moms of toddlers have newborns. You're a hero. 

I'm pretty sure my baby has been trying to kill me for ages now... Can't quite figure out why! It's a good thing she doesn't have a partner-in-crime to help her. She'd be deadly.


----------



## aliss

Noelle610 said:


> aliss said:
> 
> 
> I feel like utter shit today! Up every 20 minutes to 'feed' roll: dealing with cluster issues) and then Alex stripped naked at 1am, pissed all over the bed, I had to get up & change the bed with a screaming newborn, brought Alex into bed, he kept smacking at me and wouldn't sleep, the baby kept waking him up, argggh..... but then finally got in a good 3:30-6:30am.
> 
> I swear these boys are tag-teaming me. Why are they trying to kill me? I have no inheritance for them yet???
> 
> Sounds utterly exhausting, Aliss! I don't know how moms of toddlers have newborns. You're a hero.
> 
> I'm pretty sure my baby has been trying to kill me for ages now... Can't quite figure out why! It's a good thing she doesn't have a partner-in-crime to help her. She'd be deadly.Click to expand...

Make sure your birth control is order, I'm sure she's plotting to replace your pills with tic tacs to get a partner in crime!! :baby: :haha:

I wouldn't be surviving without my OH here on pat leave. I haven't had to take care of Alex in the day for a bit and it helps.


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## mrsbeano

Oh Aliss, I'm pretty sure that cluster feeding and growth spurts are big reasons for people quitting BFing, it is just so so exhausting without even throwing a toddler into the mix. You'll be so proud if you stick at it :flower:

Saying that, I didn't and although I was so over-the-moon when I finally threw in the towel, I do now feel bad about it. 

Well done to your hubby for helping out too. You know this as you're a pro anyway, but it'll get better! 

Noelle, the good weeks are awesome. I'm still a miserable Mum with high expectations during the bad weeks though :haha:

Jessica - a later bedtime has helped us massively. I think I was mistaking Quinn's last nap for bedtime for quite a while but now if he goes down at 7.30-8pm after I've made sure a full feed is in his tummy, he will go for 10 hours on a good night.


----------



## mrsbeano

katrinalorien said:


> Well.. here goes then. Its nap 1 of day 1 of no nursing to sleep anymore. :( Here we go. I expect it will take a couple weeks... uuuggghh thank goodness for this thread.

Aww, she'll get there. It's better now that it would be in a few months time x


----------



## Noelle610

aliss said:


> Make sure your birth control is order, I'm sure she's plotting to replace your pills with tic tacs to get a partner in crime!! :baby: :haha:
> 
> 
> :haha:Click to expand...


----------



## Noelle610

mrsbeano said:


> katrinalorien said:
> 
> 
> Well.. here goes then. Its nap 1 of day 1 of no nursing to sleep anymore. :( Here we go. I expect it will take a couple weeks... uuuggghh thank goodness for this thread.
> 
> Aww, she'll get there. It's better now that it would be in a few months time xClick to expand...

You can do it! I was just chatting with a fellow mom (she has a toddler) and she made a point that no one regrets sticking to making a positive change, even if it's hard in the short term.


----------



## bananaz

Noelle610 said:


> How many naps does she take? When Charlotte dropped her 4th nap (she takes 2 or 3 now) she really needed an earlier bedtime. It's not exact every day, but between 6pm and 7pm depending on the time of the last nap and how fussy she is seems to work well for us.

Now that you mention it, she has been in the process of dropping her 4th nap over the past couple weeks and almost always only takes 3 naps these days, so it makes sense that bedtime would be adjusted. Not sure why I didn't think of that!


----------



## bananaz

aliss said:


> I feel like utter shit today! Up every 20 minutes to 'feed' roll: dealing with cluster issues) and then Alex stripped naked at 1am, pissed all over the bed, I had to get up & change the bed with a screaming newborn, brought Alex into bed, he kept smacking at me and wouldn't sleep, the baby kept waking him up, argggh..... but then finally got in a good 3:30-6:30am.
> 
> I swear these boys are tag-teaming me. Why are they trying to kill me? I have no inheritance for them yet???

Yikes, how awful! I think I'll come back and reread this post to give me some perspective whenever I think I've had a bad night :haha:


----------



## aliss

bananaz said:


> aliss said:
> 
> 
> I feel like utter shit today! Up every 20 minutes to 'feed' roll: dealing with cluster issues) and then Alex stripped naked at 1am, pissed all over the bed, I had to get up & change the bed with a screaming newborn, brought Alex into bed, he kept smacking at me and wouldn't sleep, the baby kept waking him up, argggh..... but then finally got in a good 3:30-6:30am.
> 
> I swear these boys are tag-teaming me. Why are they trying to kill me? I have no inheritance for them yet???
> 
> Yikes, how awful! I think I'll come back and reread this post to give me some perspective whenever I think I've had a bad night :haha:Click to expand...

To be fair I was "sleeping through" only 4 weeks ago ;) So you've had a longer rough ride. Mind you, that was only a month's worth as Alex was sttn at 2 :rofl: These babies are trying to kill us slowly I swear.


----------



## Noelle610

bananaz said:


> Noelle610 said:
> 
> 
> How many naps does she take? When Charlotte dropped her 4th nap (she takes 2 or 3 now) she really needed an earlier bedtime. It's not exact every day, but between 6pm and 7pm depending on the time of the last nap and how fussy she is seems to work well for us.
> 
> Now that you mention it, she has been in the process of dropping her 4th nap over the past couple weeks and almost always only takes 3 naps these days, so it makes sense that bedtime would be adjusted. Not sure why I didn't think of that!Click to expand...

Probably because we're too tired to take note of the obvious? :haha: I sympathize!


----------



## MrsPear

Noelle610 said:


> bananaz said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Noelle610 said:
> 
> 
> How many naps does she take? When Charlotte dropped her 4th nap (she takes 2 or 3 now) she really needed an earlier bedtime. It's not exact every day, but between 6pm and 7pm depending on the time of the last nap and how fussy she is seems to work well for us.
> 
> Now that you mention it, she has been in the process of dropping her 4th nap over the past couple weeks and almost always only takes 3 naps these days, so it makes sense that bedtime would be adjusted. Not sure why I didn't think of that!Click to expand...
> 
> Probably because we're too tired to take note of the obvious? :haha: I sympathize!Click to expand...

I think your babies are like Joni and very unpredictable which makes it very hard to notice patterns and work out why timings etc are changing. Every day can be completely different!


----------



## Noelle610

MrsPear said:


> Noelle610 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bananaz said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Noelle610 said:
> 
> 
> How many naps does she take? When Charlotte dropped her 4th nap (she takes 2 or 3 now) she really needed an earlier bedtime. It's not exact every day, but between 6pm and 7pm depending on the time of the last nap and how fussy she is seems to work well for us.
> 
> Now that you mention it, she has been in the process of dropping her 4th nap over the past couple weeks and almost always only takes 3 naps these days, so it makes sense that bedtime would be adjusted. Not sure why I didn't think of that!Click to expand...
> 
> Probably because we're too tired to take note of the obvious? :haha: I sympathize!Click to expand...
> 
> I think your babies are like Joni and very unpredictable which makes it very hard to notice patterns and work out why timings etc are changing. Every day can be completely different!Click to expand...

This is very true! I know things are always changing with babies, but it's frustrating to get an 8 hour stretch one night and only two hours the next!


----------



## katrinalorien

You guys are awesome. Thanks for the support! She took a full hour and a half nap!


----------



## Noelle610

katrinalorien said:


> You guys are awesome. Thanks for the support! She took a full hour and a half nap!

Wohoo!


----------



## bananaz

MrsPear said:


> I think your babies are like Joni and very unpredictable which makes it very hard to notice patterns and work out why timings etc are changing. Every day can be completely different!

Yep, this is very true. I've been documenting Elsie's sleep habits since she was a month old using Trixie Tracker and for the most part it's just a gigantic mess. There have been stretches where her sleep seemed to organize into a semi-predictable schedule but then it falls apart again. All the data is really interesting to look at though, even if I have yet to find the magical pattern I know must be lurking in there somewhere :haha:


----------



## bananaz

katrinalorien said:


> You guys are awesome. Thanks for the support! She took a full hour and a half nap!

Woo, awesome! It's amazing how much you can get done in an hour and a half when you have a kid who's normally a catnapper. Or you can do what I do, which is spend the whole time telling yourself that she'll probably be up any minute so why start anything now? :dohh:


----------



## katrinalorien

bananaz said:


> Or you can do what I do, which is spend the whole time telling yourself that she'll probably be up any minute so why start anything now? :dohh:

haha. Or at least that's the excuse I give myself when I spend the whole time on facebook


----------



## Noelle610

bananaz said:


> katrinalorien said:
> 
> 
> You guys are awesome. Thanks for the support! She took a full hour and a half nap!
> 
> Woo, awesome! It's amazing how much you can get done in an hour and a half when you have a kid who's normally a catnapper. Or you can do what I do, which is spend the whole time telling yourself that she'll probably be up any minute so why start anything now? :dohh:Click to expand...

I do this at NIGHT! Even though Charlotte slept for 7 hours last night, I woke up at 2:30am and drifted in and out of light sleep because I was convinced she'd wake "any minute". I'm sooo tired today. I have a cold and my eyes feel like sandpaper.


----------



## Shadowy Lady

ughhhh I'm here again...and I see you are too Aliss. I was hoping your second one would make up for all the time the eldest one didn't let you sleep. Though he's still young :)

So I'm at my folks and my mom wanted Sofia to sleep in their room and sent me downstairs. She said she'll bring her down if needed. So Sofia was cranky and gassy most of the day yesterday anyway and I ended up putting her to sleep at 7 pm (an hour earlier than usual). She woke up at 11 when my mom gave her ebm, then up again at 1 am coz she was super gassy...then my mom brought her down again at 3 am and I nursed her. My mom said that from 3 am to 6:00 am (her last nursing I did), she was incredibly gassy and was up multiple times looking for her soother :/

I wish I could let her self sooth but I don't know if she knows how. So some nights like this she wakes up a lot needing her soother :/


----------



## Noelle610

Shadowy Lady said:


> ughhhh I'm here again...and I see you are too Aliss. I was hoping your second one would make up for all the time the eldest one didn't let you sleep. Though he's still young :)
> 
> So I'm at my folks and my mom wanted Sofia to sleep in their room and sent me downstairs. She said she'll bring her down if needed. So Sofia was cranky and gassy most of the day yesterday anyway and I ended up putting her to sleep at 7 pm (an hour earlier than usual). She woke up at 11 when my mom gave her ebm, then up again at 1 am coz she was super gassy...then my mom brought her down again at 3 am and I nursed her. My mom said that from 3 am to 6:00 am (her last nursing I did), she was incredibly gassy and was up multiple times looking for her soother :/
> 
> I wish I could let her self sooth but I don't know if she knows how. So some nights like this she wakes up a lot needing her soother :/

So sorry to see you here Lady! I thought of you last night when I couldn't sleep :)

Your LO is still very young. I know it doesn't FEEL that way since you are so utterly exhausted, but she has time to learn to self-soothe. I promise you that the gassiness and digestive issues do get better as the gut matures as well. I wouldn't be suprised if Sophia was STTN by 6 months!


----------



## Shadowy Lady

Thanks Noelle, I really do hope so. I'm getting tempted to give her a big bottle of formula before bed as it does work for some ppl (a few of my friends for example). My mom's volunteering to stay with her again tonight so maybe I'll get some sleep.

Glad to hear Charlotte is sleeping well finally though. You totally deserve some rest mamma! I keep my fingers crossed for you that it continues. I'm lucky to live in Canada where we get one year mat leave. I could not imagine going to work as exhausted as I am now...


----------



## stephj25

Back again!! Every 40mins last night so I'm dreading it tonight, my eyes feel like they are burning I'm that tired. I hope everyone else is ok!! X


----------



## Noelle610

stephj25 said:


> Back again!! Every 40mins last night so I'm dreading it tonight, my eyes feel like they are burning I'm that tired. I hope everyone else is ok!! X

Oh no Steph! Hope this phase passes quickly for you. That's torture.


----------



## stephj25

Noelle610 said:


> stephj25 said:
> 
> 
> Back again!! Every 40mins last night so I'm dreading it tonight, my eyes feel like they are burning I'm that tired. I hope everyone else is ok!! X
> 
> Oh no Steph! Hope this phase passes quickly for you. That's torture.Click to expand...

Thank you. I'm hoping it won't last much longer since its been on and off since 23 weeks. I haven't had much chance to update myself on the last few pages so I'll read up on how everyone is doing in the morning. I'd like to know that there is light at the end of the tunnel!


----------



## Shadowy Lady

stephj25 said:


> Back again!! Every 40mins last night so I'm dreading it tonight, my eyes feel like they are burning I'm that tired. I hope everyone else is ok!! X

oh man , hope you have a much better night tonight :hugs:


----------



## firstbaby1985

We have had/are having a crap night! Brodie went to bed at 7 and has been up screaming from 8:30-10, 10:30 he was fed. Then up 1-1:30 and now 5:30 feed. I usually don't have to feed him at night!! Urgh exhasted


----------



## firstbaby1985

And still up crying! Will I get any sleep tonight?


----------



## stephj25

well, LO slept a bit better last night and woke every hour, I feel a bit better than yesterday but still wondering if this will ever end!!

Firstbaby1985 :hugs: How are you feeling? I hope you managed to get some sleep


----------



## MrsPear

stephj25 said:


> Back again!! Every 40mins last night so I'm dreading it tonight, my eyes feel like they are burning I'm that tired. I hope everyone else is ok!! X

:hugs: You need a big coffee xx


----------



## MrsPear

Reading through seems like everyone has been having some crap nights. Coffees all round then! 

Joni had her injections yesterday and she was up from 2:30 in pain. Her legs don't look swollen or anything but when I touch her thighs she cries. I guess they must have been aching in the night. I just felt so sorry for her, I held her in my arms all night, every time I stood up to put her down she burst into tears. I am absolutely knackered now!! But I didn't mind, I knew it was hurting her and I just felt so bad for her. She is hard to settle but it is not like her to be screaming through the night or impossible to put down so I think it was probably a one off x


----------



## aliss

We had a good night. 5pm bed, 7pm-9pm feeding, 11:30pm feed, 2am feed, 4-5am feeding, and it's 5:45 and still asleep (I escaped to have some peace to myself).

Except he was on my chest all night :( But I really needed a break!!

MrsPear- :hugs: I still remember vaccine nights. AWFUL


----------



## MrsPear

aliss said:


> We had a good night. 5pm bed, 7pm-9pm feeding, 11:30pm feed, 2am feed, 4-5am feeding, and it's 5:45 and still asleep (I escaped to have some peace to myself).
> 
> Except he was on my chest all night :( But I really needed a break!!
> 
> MrsPear- :hugs: I still remember vaccine nights. AWFUL

That is good sleep for his age but it's still a lot of times and you can't get a good sleep with him on your chest (a better sleep than with him in his moses basket though!), you must still be knackered.

Strangely I didn't mind being up last night, I felt bad for Joni but she seemed calmed by being in my arms so to be honest I was feeling really pleased with myself that she felt comforted! She can't be put down for naps but generally she is not a very cuddly baby and never has been x


----------



## Noelle610

Here, here to coffees all around! It's interesting how different babies react differently to shots. Charlotte always SLEEPS great after hers. I thought it was a fluke, but after a few rounds it seems to be a pattern.

Last night was our first real attempt not to feed Charlotte between midnight and 5am per our doctors orders. He thought it would help her sleep better and help her reflux. The plan was to have the last feed before midnight... she woke at 11:30pm and I fed her then. She then woke again at 3:30am and man was she mad not to be fed! I spent an hour soothing her. Then DH took over and she ended up going to sleep (maybe that's key here...). It was hard, but I'm glad we stuck with it. She hasn't been thrashing about this morning like she typically does and I imagine it's because she's not refluxy, gassy and doesn't have a super-wet diaper. 

I told myself I'd commit to this for at least a week. Give me strength girls! Even thought the doctor thinks this is best and I KNOW she's not starving (it's not even like he asked me to have her go all night), it's hard to not do the "easy" thing especially when you are tired.


----------



## MrsPear

Noelle610 said:


> Here, here to coffees all around! It's interesting how different babies react differently to shots. Charlotte always SLEEPS great after hers. I thought it was a fluke, but after a few rounds it seems to be a pattern.
> 
> Last night was our first real attempt not to feed Charlotte between midnight and 5am per our doctors orders. He thought it would help her sleep better and help her reflux. The plan was to have the last feed before midnight... she woke at 11:30pm and I fed her then. She then woke again at 3:30am and man was she mad not to be fed! I spent an hour soothing her. Then DH took over and she ended up going to sleep (maybe that's key here...). It was hard, but I'm glad we stuck with it. She hasn't been thrashing about this morning like she typically does and I imagine it's because she's not refluxy, gassy and doesn't have a super-wet diaper.
> 
> I told myself I'd commit to this for at least a week. Give me strength girls! Even thought the doctor thinks this is best and I KNOW she's not starving (it's not even like he asked me to have her go all night), it's hard to not do the "easy" thing especially when you are tired.

Yes I have definitely heard that gtting someone else to do the settling helps when you are trying to drop a feed...you need to get your OH on board for the next few nights if you can! 

Joni is only 4 months (and no reflux) so I don't limit her milk at night but I'm definitely guilty of doing the "easy" thing- sometimes she feeds for less than 5 minutes. It's so hard through when you feel like it's your best weapon! x


----------



## stephj25

Noelle610 said:


> Here, here to coffees all around! It's interesting how different babies react differently to shots. Charlotte always SLEEPS great after hers. I thought it was a fluke, but after a few rounds it seems to be a pattern.
> 
> Last night was our first real attempt not to feed Charlotte between midnight and 5am per our doctors orders. He thought it would help her sleep better and help her reflux. The plan was to have the last feed before midnight... she woke at 11:30pm and I fed her then. She then woke again at 3:30am and man was she mad not to be fed! I spent an hour soothing her. Then DH took over and she ended up going to sleep (maybe that's key here...). It was hard, but I'm glad we stuck with it. She hasn't been thrashing about this morning like she typically does and I imagine it's because she's not refluxy, gassy and doesn't have a super-wet diaper.
> 
> I told myself I'd commit to this for at least a week. Give me strength girls! Even thought the doctor thinks this is best and I KNOW she's not starving (it's not even like he asked me to have her go all night), it's hard to not do the "easy" thing especially when you are tired.

Oooh, good luck!! I personally wouldn't be able to do it because I don't know how to settle my child without feeding! she hates cuddles. I can imagine how difficult it will be for you x


----------



## Noelle610

stephj25 said:


> Noelle610 said:
> 
> 
> Here, here to coffees all around! It's interesting how different babies react differently to shots. Charlotte always SLEEPS great after hers. I thought it was a fluke, but after a few rounds it seems to be a pattern.
> 
> Last night was our first real attempt not to feed Charlotte between midnight and 5am per our doctors orders. He thought it would help her sleep better and help her reflux. The plan was to have the last feed before midnight... she woke at 11:30pm and I fed her then. She then woke again at 3:30am and man was she mad not to be fed! I spent an hour soothing her. Then DH took over and she ended up going to sleep (maybe that's key here...). It was hard, but I'm glad we stuck with it. She hasn't been thrashing about this morning like she typically does and I imagine it's because she's not refluxy, gassy and doesn't have a super-wet diaper.
> 
> I told myself I'd commit to this for at least a week. Give me strength girls! Even thought the doctor thinks this is best and I KNOW she's not starving (it's not even like he asked me to have her go all night), it's hard to not do the "easy" thing especially when you are tired.
> 
> Oooh, good luck!! I personally wouldn't be able to do it because I don't know how to settle my child without feeding! she hates cuddles. I can imagine how difficult it will be for you xClick to expand...

Mine hates cuddles too, except in the middle of the night! The doc said the hardest night would be the first, so I'm holding onto that. A good friend of mine basically had good advice. She said, "What you're doing now isn't working, so trying something new can't hurt. It will either work or it won't and you won't be any worse off than you are now". I thought that put things in perspective.


----------



## katrinalorien

Noelle610 said:


> Here, here to coffees all around! It's interesting how different babies react differently to shots. Charlotte always SLEEPS great after hers. I thought it was a fluke, but after a few rounds it seems to be a pattern.
> 
> Last night was our first real attempt not to feed Charlotte between midnight and 5am per our doctors orders. He thought it would help her sleep better and help her reflux. The plan was to have the last feed before midnight... she woke at 11:30pm and I fed her then. She then woke again at 3:30am and man was she mad not to be fed! I spent an hour soothing her. Then DH took over and she ended up going to sleep (maybe that's key here...). It was hard, but I'm glad we stuck with it. She hasn't been thrashing about this morning like she typically does and I imagine it's because she's not refluxy, gassy and doesn't have a super-wet diaper.
> 
> I told myself I'd commit to this for at least a week. Give me strength girls! Even thought the doctor thinks this is best and I KNOW she's not starving (it's not even like he asked me to have her go all night), it's hard to not do the "easy" thing especially when you are tired.


You can do this Noelle. I'm currently on the "wait at least two hours before you feed" and it is definitely hard, its 5 am and we had a 4 am feed, so I know this hour is just going to be ridiculous. 

We can do this. For them! They are worth it.


----------



## aliss

Noelle- she'll be pretty pissed about restricted feeds but in the end, we started doing that with Alex too. I'm a very hippy "attachment parent" in all ways but one thing that kind of irks me is that girls with reflux babies are often told to continually feed on demand, which can actually do more harm than good. I understand most people can't comprehend what a real reflux baby is like (it's not a wee bit of puking!!!) but I worry sometimes girls make it a lot worse for themselves following standard advice. Good luck!! We noticed a remarkable improvement in his reflux when he was able to sit, stand, and then once he started walking, it was gone.


----------



## Noelle610

aliss said:


> Noelle- she'll be pretty pissed about restricted feeds but in the end, we started doing that with Alex too. I'm a very hippy "attachment parent" in all ways but one thing that kind of irks me is that girls with reflux babies are often told to continually feed on demand, which can actually do more harm than good. I understand most people can't comprehend what a real reflux baby is like (it's not a wee bit of puking!!!) but I worry sometimes girls make it a lot worse for themselves following standard advice. Good luck!! We noticed a remarkable improvement in his reflux when he was able to sit, stand, and then once he started walking, it was gone.

Thanks for you understanding. My friends lean toward AP parenting as well and while I think it's awesome (skin to skin did wonders for my relationship with my daughter when I really didn't like her and was suffering from PND), feeding on demand doesn't always work for a reflux baby. We were forced to put her on a daytime schedule and I'm not sure why I didn't think if applying the same principles at night even though she was waking up in vomit. Charlotte is usually restless after the 3am feeding, but after she finally went back to sleep last night she actually slept soundly until 7am which is unheard of in this house. I'm wondering if not feeding led to less pain which led to a deeper sleep. I'm hopeful.

Come to think of it, I have noticed a vast improvement in Charlotte's reflux since she started sitting up in the past week... I didn't even connect the two!


----------



## Noelle610

katrinalorien said:


> Noelle610 said:
> 
> 
> Here, here to coffees all around! It's interesting how different babies react differently to shots. Charlotte always SLEEPS great after hers. I thought it was a fluke, but after a few rounds it seems to be a pattern.
> 
> Last night was our first real attempt not to feed Charlotte between midnight and 5am per our doctors orders. He thought it would help her sleep better and help her reflux. The plan was to have the last feed before midnight... she woke at 11:30pm and I fed her then. She then woke again at 3:30am and man was she mad not to be fed! I spent an hour soothing her. Then DH took over and she ended up going to sleep (maybe that's key here...). It was hard, but I'm glad we stuck with it. She hasn't been thrashing about this morning like she typically does and I imagine it's because she's not refluxy, gassy and doesn't have a super-wet diaper.
> 
> I told myself I'd commit to this for at least a week. Give me strength girls! Even thought the doctor thinks this is best and I KNOW she's not starving (it's not even like he asked me to have her go all night), it's hard to not do the "easy" thing especially when you are tired.
> 
> 
> You can do this Noelle. I'm currently on the "wait at least two hours before you feed" and it is definitely hard, its 5 am and we had a 4 am feed, so I know this hour is just going to be ridiculous.
> 
> We can do this. For them! They are worth it.Click to expand...

Thanks Katrina! They ARE worth it! My doctor made the point that I'd have to do lots of things in the future for the good of my child that she won't necessarily "like". I think that's a good way to think of it.


----------



## aliss

Noelle610 said:


> aliss said:
> 
> 
> Noelle- she'll be pretty pissed about restricted feeds but in the end, we started doing that with Alex too. I'm a very hippy "attachment parent" in all ways but one thing that kind of irks me is that girls with reflux babies are often told to continually feed on demand, which can actually do more harm than good. I understand most people can't comprehend what a real reflux baby is like (it's not a wee bit of puking!!!) but I worry sometimes girls make it a lot worse for themselves following standard advice. Good luck!! We noticed a remarkable improvement in his reflux when he was able to sit, stand, and then once he started walking, it was gone.
> 
> Thanks for you understanding. My friends lean toward AP parenting as well and while I think it's awesome (skin to skin did wonders for my relationship with my daughter when I really didn't like her and was suffering from PND), feeding on demand doesn't always work for a reflux baby. We were forced to put her on a daytime schedule and I'm not sure why I didn't think if applying the same principles at night even though she was waking up in vomit. Charlotte is usually restless after the 3am feeding, but after she finally went back to sleep last night she actually slept soundly until 7am which is unheard of in this house. I'm wondering if not feeding led to less pain which led to a deeper sleep. I'm hopeful.
> 
> Come to think of it, I have noticed a vast improvement in Charlotte's reflux since she started sitting up in the past week... I didn't even connect the two!Click to expand...

We gotta stick together :hugs:

But yes, there is a big difference in mobility! The upright position rocks!!! :thumbup:


----------



## MrsPear

Well we have been trying to settle Joni for 2 hours now and she is still screaming :nope: I was getting fed up so OH has taken her off me. I think the quickest we can get her settled is 1 hour, and it can take up to 3. I know she is only 4.5 months but I thought it would be a little bit better than this by now. I feel so frustrated and rubbish.:nope:


----------



## Noelle610

MrsPear said:


> Well we have been trying to settle Joni for 2 hours now and she is still screaming :nope: I was getting fed up so OH has taken her off me. I think the quickest we can get her settled is 1 hour, and it can take up to 3. I know she is only 4.5 months but I thought it would be a little bit better than this by now. I feel so frustrated and rubbish.:nope:

:hugs:


----------



## MrsPear

Noelle610 said:


> MrsPear said:
> 
> 
> Well we have been trying to settle Joni for 2 hours now and she is still screaming :nope: I was getting fed up so OH has taken her off me. I think the quickest we can get her settled is 1 hour, and it can take up to 3. I know she is only 4.5 months but I thought it would be a little bit better than this by now. I feel so frustrated and rubbish.:nope:
> 
> :hugs:Click to expand...

I have calmed down now! She went to sleep 40minutes ago...but now is awake again. Sigh. Fingers crossed we will get some sleep tonight! xx


----------



## bananaz

firstbaby1985 said:


> We have had/are having a crap night! Brodie went to bed at 7 and has been up screaming from 8:30-10, 10:30 he was fed. Then up 1-1:30 and now 5:30 feed. I usually don't have to feed him at night!! Urgh exhasted

Aw, that's rough. Hopefully it's just a growth spurt and he'll back to sleeping well soon! :hugs:


----------



## bananaz

Ergh, last night was even worse than usual. She went down at 6:50, woke at 10:30 and then was up every two hours the rest of the night. I think the sleep deprivation finally caught up with me because I was a total zombie and handled everything about as badly as I could have, AKA I fed her back down at every waking. There were a couple times where I made a halfhearted attempt at soothing her but when she kept screaming I just picked her up and nursed her. I guess I wasn't prepared for such a bad night and the exhaustion made me weak.

I did at least make a point of continuing to shorten the first few feedings - I took her off after 5 minutes and put her back down awake and she resettled herself with only a little fussing. Tonight I'm going to shorten that to 3 minutes, and then the night after that I'm sure she's going to just magically stop waking for those feedings, right?? :coffee:

How's it going for the rest of you? Were you able to skip the 12am-5am feedings, Noelle?

Also, here's a question for reflux mamas - do you give them meds in the middle of the night? My LO is supposed to get hers 2-3x a day and usually I give her a dose when she wakes up and then a dose an hour before bed, but maybe it's wearing off at night and she could use a dose then?


----------



## bananaz

MrsPear said:


> Well we have been trying to settle Joni for 2 hours now and she is still screaming :nope: I was getting fed up so OH has taken her off me. I think the quickest we can get her settled is 1 hour, and it can take up to 3. I know she is only 4.5 months but I thought it would be a little bit better than this by now. I feel so frustrated and rubbish.:nope:


Wow, that's really tough. How do you usually try to settle her? Does she have reflux or a food allergy or another medical issue that might be keeping her from being able to go to sleep? I ask because I had the same problem with my LO when she was a couple of months old. I went on an elimination diet to see if it helped and within a few days she suddenly started being able to go to sleep - it was like she was a different baby. As it turned out, she had a sensitivity to cinnamon and it was getting passed through my milk and making her super uncomfortable. 

Anyway, I hope you get it sorted soon! :hugs:


----------



## katrinalorien

bananaz said:


> Ergh, last night was even worse than usual. She went down at 6:50, woke at 10:30 and then was up every two hours the rest of the night. I think the sleep deprivation finally caught up with me because I was a total zombie and handled everything about as badly as I could have, AKA I fed her back down at every waking. There were a couple times where I made a halfhearted attempt at soothing her but when she kept screaming I just picked her up and nursed her. I guess I wasn't prepared for such a bad night and the exhaustion made me weak.
> 
> I did at least make a point of continuing to shorten the first few feedings - I took her off after 5 minutes and put her back down awake and she resettled herself with only a little fussing. Tonight I'm going to shorten that to 3 minutes, and then the night after that I'm sure she's going to just magically stop waking for those feedings, right?? :coffee:

So sorry. We had a horrible night too, but at least I was prepared. Don't worry about what was done, just keep goin on! I think you're doing a great job - I'm not even to the shortening feedings part yet. :hugs:


Sending you some sleepy :dust:


----------



## Shadowy Lady

hope you guys all get some sleep tonight, I know we all need it. 

I also had a terrible night and am scared of what may come tonight as I won't even have help (will be back at home and DH starts work early). I honestly am determine to sleep train by 4 months. It's rough being a zombie every friggin day


----------



## Noelle610

Bananaz, you have to do what you have to do! Limiting the time nursing is progress. Don't be too hard on yourself!

Charlotte woke at 3:30am last night wanting to be fed. I had fed her at 11:30, so I felt pretty comfortable not feeding. Unfortunately she cried on and off for an hour! Interestingly, as soon as my DH took over she fell asleep. She then slept soudly until 7am, which I thought was odd... How hungry could she really have been?


----------



## Noelle610

We had a good night! DH fed Charlotte at 10:30pm and she didn't wake again until 5am! Per the doc's suggestion, I waited ten minutes to see if she'd put herself back to sleep and SHE DID! I'm proud. Three nights of not eating between midnight and 5am... here's hoping it's becoming a habit.

Unfortunately I couldn't sleep after 2am. Shadowy Lady, I'm really struggling with this postpartum insomnia too. I don't know what to do. I don't want to take a real sleeping pill, but at this point the melatonin and simply sleep have worn off. I'm really tired and feeling a bit ill at the moment.


----------



## aliss

Hooray for a great night!!

Mine was both the best and worst :rofl: 8:30-3am (with feeds at 8, 12, 3, simple and quick) and then at 3 he just SCREAMED, for 2.5 hours :cry: It was awful. He's asleep now for 30 minutes, with OH, I ended up leaving the room as I was getting so upset and angry that I thought it was one of those "....walk away" moments :cry: I need to buy gripe water today, I think it would have taken care of it before he got upset & overtired.

Oh and changing the naked toddler who peed everywhere at 12. AGAIN. EVERY FREAKIN NIGHT. I don't know what to do anymore.


----------



## Noelle610

UGH sorry aliss! I have those "walk away" moments more than I'd like to admit sometimes. 

Wish I had tips on the toddler, but unfortunately I don't! I have a colleague going through potty training at the moment and she claims she's found it one of the hardest parts of motherhood, since it's just such a long process.


----------



## aliss

I've been reading a 3 day bootcamp one but it just seems to be too overwhelming and strict (ie. no diapers from minute 1, sleep in their room and rush them to the potty when they pee even at night). Yikes.

Yeah potty training sucks, but I'd rather deal with piss once a night than 3 horus of crying :rofl:


----------



## MrsPear

Noelle610 said:


> We had a good night! DH fed Charlotte at 10:30pm and she didn't wake again until 5am! Per the doc's suggestion, I waited ten minutes to see if she'd put herself back to sleep and SHE DID! I'm proud. Three nights of not eating between midnight and 5am... here's hoping it's becoming a habit.
> 
> Unfortunately I couldn't sleep after 2am. Shadowy Lady, I'm really struggling with this postpartum insomnia too. I don't know what to do. I don't want to take a real sleeping pill, but at this point the melatonin and simply sleep have worn off. I'm really tired and feeling a bit ill at the moment.

I wonder if you just have to ride the insomnia out a bit? You have had months of unpredictability so it's not surprising your body is alert even when your baby sleeps. So far you have some really good signs that not feeding is going to help! The fact she settled for your OH shows you are a feeding cue and she is not necessarily hungry. So, I really hope if you get a few more good nights a pattern might start to emerge and your body will start to relax a little. The end might be just around the corner for the majority of your problems, and then the anxiety that stops you from sleeping might start to dissipate. Of course all of us are going to have sleepless nights from time to time but if it's the exception rather than the norm we might not be on red alert so much. :hugs:


----------



## MrsPear

bananaz said:


> MrsPear said:
> 
> 
> Well we have been trying to settle Joni for 2 hours now and she is still screaming :nope: I was getting fed up so OH has taken her off me. I think the quickest we can get her settled is 1 hour, and it can take up to 3. I know she is only 4.5 months but I thought it would be a little bit better than this by now. I feel so frustrated and rubbish.:nope:
> 
> 
> Wow, that's really tough. How do you usually try to settle her? Does she have reflux or a food allergy or another medical issue that might be keeping her from being able to go to sleep? I ask because I had the same problem with my LO when she was a couple of months old. I went on an elimination diet to see if it helped and within a few days she suddenly started being able to go to sleep - it was like she was a different baby. As it turned out, she had a sensitivity to cinnamon and it was getting passed through my milk and making her super uncomfortable.
> 
> Anyway, I hope you get it sorted soon! :hugs:Click to expand...

I think the main problem is being over tired. OH normally comes home right about the time she is drifting to sleep and naturally it's hard for him to be so quiet that she doesn't wake up. And I feel really bad for him because he leaves before she wakes and doesn't get to see her some days. So she hears him, wakes up, and before I know it, it's like we missed 'the window' and she's too tired to get herself to sleep. I try to get her in bed before he gets home, but he comes between 6:45 and 7:30 and that's really right when she drifts off. 

She doesn't nap well either. She never ever naps more than 45 minutes. Today she has been up about 3.5 hours and I've managed to squeeze two 10-15 minute naps out. She wakes up refreshed and bright eyed, but quickly gets ratty, so I don't think she has any pain, just tired.

I suppose I could try cutting out caffiene? Do you think that could help her sleep better? It'll be hard work though!!! But if it worked I would do it!!!! x


----------



## MrsPear

aliss said:


> Hooray for a great night!!
> 
> Mine was both the best and worst :rofl: 8:30-3am (with feeds at 8, 12, 3, simple and quick) and then at 3 he just SCREAMED, for 2.5 hours :cry: It was awful. He's asleep now for 30 minutes, with OH, I ended up leaving the room as I was getting so upset and angry that I thought it was one of those "....walk away" moments :cry: I need to buy gripe water today, I think it would have taken care of it before he got upset & overtired.
> 
> Oh and changing the naked toddler who peed everywhere at 12. AGAIN. EVERY FREAKIN NIGHT. I don't know what to do anymore.

Yes when OH took Joni last night, that was definitely a walk away moment. I went back up 20 minutes later to take over again, and he refused to give her back. She does settle better for me but to his credit, he tried different things until she fell asleep and then came to collect me from underneath my duvet and made me a drink


----------



## bananaz

Noelle610 said:


> We had a good night! DH fed Charlotte at 10:30pm and she didn't wake again until 5am! Per the doc's suggestion, I waited ten minutes to see if she'd put herself back to sleep and SHE DID! I'm proud. Three nights of not eating between midnight and 5am... here's hoping it's becoming a habit.

That's great! I hope it keeps up. Did she really cry at the 5am waking or just fuss a bit? I have a hard time not responding if LO actually starts crying since I feel like it's always going to escalate...

It's 3:30am here and Elsie has been up for over an hour now. I decided I was going to get her back down at least once without feeding her but she has not made it easy. She just got fed at 10pm and 1am so I know she can't be that hungry but you'd never know it by the way she was screaming. I had to chase her around the crib trying to shush/pat her because she was so furious and writhing around. I think she's finally going to sleep now, thank god. I'm sure she's just going to pop back up in an hour though :nope:


----------



## aliss

Once upon a time when I was originally in baby club, somebody (who I love, but I must tell this story) complained that her 6 week old still woke for 1 feed and how to drop that feed? 

True story.


----------



## aliss

MrsPear said:


> aliss said:
> 
> 
> Hooray for a great night!!
> 
> Mine was both the best and worst :rofl: 8:30-3am (with feeds at 8, 12, 3, simple and quick) and then at 3 he just SCREAMED, for 2.5 hours :cry: It was awful. He's asleep now for 30 minutes, with OH, I ended up leaving the room as I was getting so upset and angry that I thought it was one of those "....walk away" moments :cry: I need to buy gripe water today, I think it would have taken care of it before he got upset & overtired.
> 
> Oh and changing the naked toddler who peed everywhere at 12. AGAIN. EVERY FREAKIN NIGHT. I don't know what to do anymore.
> 
> Yes when OH took Joni last night, that was definitely a walk away moment. I went back up 20 minutes later to take over again, and he refused to give her back. She does settle better for me but to his credit, he tried different things until she fell asleep and then came to collect me from underneath my duvet and made me a drinkClick to expand...

Thank goodness for walk away! I can't imagine being a single mom, I have so much respect for them.


----------



## bananaz

MrsPear said:


> I think the main problem is being over tired. OH normally comes home right about the time she is drifting to sleep and naturally it's hard for him to be so quiet that she doesn't wake up. And I feel really bad for him because he leaves before she wakes and doesn't get to see her some days. So she hears him, wakes up, and before I know it, it's like we missed 'the window' and she's too tired to get herself to sleep. I try to get her in bed before he gets home, but he comes between 6:45 and 7:30 and that's really right when she drifts off.
> 
> She doesn't nap well either. She never ever naps more than 45 minutes. Today she has been up about 3.5 hours and I've managed to squeeze two 10-15 minute naps out. She wakes up refreshed and bright eyed, but quickly gets ratty, so I don't think she has any pain, just tired.
> 
> I suppose I could try cutting out caffiene? Do you think that could help her sleep better? It'll be hard work though!!! But if it worked I would do it!!!! x

That's a tough situation. Do you use white noise? Maybe that could help insulate her against the sound of OH coming home?

And cutting out caffeine is definitely worth a try. I know it affects my LO (which sucks because I could really use some these days!)


----------



## bananaz

aliss said:


> Once upon a time when I was originally in baby club, somebody (who I love, but I must tell this story) complained that her 6 week old still woke for 1 feed and how to drop that feed?
> 
> True story.


:dohh:

Sometimes I look over my sleep data and gaze longingly at those bygone one-waking nights... le sigh


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## katrinalorien

aliss said:


> Hooray for a great night!!
> 
> Mine was both the best and worst :rofl: 8:30-3am (with feeds at 8, 12, 3, simple and quick) and then at 3 he just SCREAMED, for 2.5 hours :cry: It was awful. He's asleep now for 30 minutes, with OH, I ended up leaving the room as I was getting so upset and angry that I thought it was one of those "....walk away" moments :cry: I need to buy gripe water today, I think it would have taken care of it before he got upset & overtired.
> 
> Oh and changing the naked toddler who peed everywhere at 12. AGAIN. EVERY FREAKIN NIGHT. I don't know what to do anymore.

Yup.. I have those moments. They always seem to come at 2 am or something, yeah? After an hour's screaming session? Try not to feel bad, you did the right thing and walked away.


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## Noelle610

MrsPear, I think you are so right about the unpredictability. A friend with a formerly "bad" sleeper just suggested the same. She said it probably took a month after her baby was sleeping consistantly well to do the same. 

Bananaz, it was more of a "fuss". I don't usually give her the opportunity to cry and get worked up as it just escalates in the way you described! I HATE the long wakings in the night. Getting up to feed is one thing, but when they're wide awake it's very, very frustrating. 

Aliss, I don't think some people realize how good they've got it! It's hard not to wish that their next babies are "high needs". I know that sounds so spiteful! When we were going through hourly wakings during the 4 month regression, I had a friend complaining about going from one to two night wakings. That was hard.


----------



## katrinalorien

bananaz said:


> aliss said:
> 
> 
> Once upon a time when I was originally in baby club, somebody (who I love, but I must tell this story) complained that her 6 week old still woke for 1 feed and how to drop that feed?
> 
> True story.
> 
> 
> :dohh:
> 
> Sometimes I look over my sleep data and gaze longingly at those bygone one-waking nights... le sighClick to expand...

Yeah.... me too... :(


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## Noelle610

I also have a lovely friend with a baby who STTN since 6 weeks old who is always compaining about being tired. Love that girl, but I'm the wrong person to rant to about sleep!


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## katrinalorien

Noelle610 said:


> MrsPear, I think you are so right about the unpredictability. A friend with a formerly "bad" sleeper just suggested the same. She said it probably took a month after her baby was sleeping consistantly well to do the same.
> 
> Bananaz, it was more of a "fuss". I don't usually give her the opportunity to cry and get worked up as it just escalates in the way you described! I HATE the long wakings in the night. Getting up to feed is one thing, but when they're wide awake it's very, very frustrating.
> 
> Aliss, I don't think some people realize how good they've got it! It's hard not to wish that their next babies are "high needs". I know that sounds so spiteful! When we were going through hourly wakings during the 4 month regression, I had a friend complaining about going from one to two night wakings. That was hard.

Noelle you can also try that zzzzquil stuff for a while, its that new stuff on the market. As soon as Lily is sleeping better that's what I'm going to do!! Because I wake up when DH gets around in the morning.


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## Noelle610

Thanks Katrina, I may try that! I'm going to see my midwife soon about weaning from the pump and birth control, so I will mention the sleep thing.


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## katrinalorien

MrsPear said:


> I think the main problem is being over tired. OH normally comes home right about the time she is drifting to sleep and naturally it's hard for him to be so quiet that she doesn't wake up. And I feel really bad for him because he leaves before she wakes and doesn't get to see her some days. So she hears him, wakes up, and before I know it, it's like we missed 'the window' and she's too tired to get herself to sleep. I try to get her in bed before he gets home, but he comes between 6:45 and 7:30 and that's really right when she drifts off.
> 
> She doesn't nap well either. She never ever naps more than 45 minutes. Today she has been up about 3.5 hours and I've managed to squeeze two 10-15 minute naps out. She wakes up refreshed and bright eyed, but quickly gets ratty, so I don't think she has any pain, just tired.
> 
> I suppose I could try cutting out caffiene? Do you think that could help her sleep better? It'll be hard work though!!! But if it worked I would do it!!!! x


Goodness, that is tough. Sometimes Lily still only takes 45 min naps, but it is getting better, the more she is able to self settle, the longer naps she is taking. I hope it gets better for you soon...


----------



## katrinalorien

As for me we had a weird night. She went down at about 8:00, and I didn't nurse her down at all, I made sure she had eaten at 7, she took about 5 min to settle. Then she woke up at 1:00, so I fed her because it had been 3 hrs since she had eaten and of course she was out right away after eating. But what can you do? I still need to feed her, she's so used to that. Then she woke up at 3:00, and I got up to feed her, but she was asleep by the time I got to the door. So I went back to sofa and laid down but then crying again. And I had stood at the door for a good 2 min! Rinse and repeat 3 times and then she was out. Oh well.... Then she woke at 4 and I fed her. Then I had a dream she was crying and I woke up to go get her, but she wasn't actually crying... and I still wonder if I slept through her crying or something? I feel pretty awful about it. Then she woke up at 5 but self settled in less than 1 min, and then was up for the day at 7:15. So really a pretty good night in a way, she self settled a lot, but just strange.


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## Noelle610

Sounds like a decent night Katrina! I wouldn't stress about sleeping through her crying. My pediatrician actually suggested I turn of our baby monitor, since Charlotte sleeps right accross the hall from us. We even have a fan on for white noise (for the adults!). Reflux babies are particularly loud. My ped said, "If your baby needs you, you will hear her". I think this is true. A delayed response isn't bad either, for a baby that's not a newborn. They often can self-soothe a bit if given even a small opportunity.

Re: Naps. They do get longer. It's taken time, but we're finally seeing naps between one and two hours. I think it just happens with age, as babies mature.


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## Shadowy Lady

Katrina - sounds like your nights are improving, go mamma!

Mrs Pear - I have my fingers crossed for you, best of luck tonight!

Noelle - we have Sofia's monitor off too as eventhough she's in her own room, it's so close that I hear her anyway. I've slept slightly better since we turned off the monitor.

We had a weird night also. She went down at 8 pm and woke up at 1:30 am for her first feed. I nursed her and she slept but she woke up again at 3:15 am but just for her pacifier. I would say she woke up 3 times after that and I ran to give her the pacifier to get her to sleep. She finally fell asleep at around 3:45 am till about 7 am this morning when she was hungry. 

I def see that her pacifier is the problem here as she is not hungry and has become too dependent on it. I really need to wean her off of it. I also need her to start napping in her crib (right now she naps in her swing, again with the pacifier). Do you guys think I should start with proper night time routine or nap time ones? Or should I do both at the same time? By routine I mean eliminating the pacifier...


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## Noelle610

Shadowy, I'd just get rid of the pacifier cold turkey. It will be a rough few days, but my understanding is that babies adjust quickly to the change. It sounds like it's becoming an issue. 

The napping in the crib thing happened for us around 4 months, and then only sometimes. We used the swing too. I don't have much adivce accept "keep trying". Once my LO got on more of a nap routine (napping at the same time every day), it seemed easier. She will get there!


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## katrinalorien

Yeah I'd do cold turkey. That's what my ped reccomended for nursing to sleep as well, and Lily is really learning to self settle quickly I think.


----------



## katrinalorien

:hugs: for the long journey though!! I'm so sorry about it!


----------



## bananaz

*katrina* - I'm glad you had a good night! Like Noelle said, I wouldn't worry about sleeping through her crying. As long as you're not drinking heavily or taking any strong sedating medications before bed I'm sure you'll wake if she needs you.

*MrsPear* - My girl also only took 25-45 minute naps for a looooong time but suddenly over the past few weeks they've started lengthening out and now they're usually 1-2 hours at a time! I didn't do anything differently, I think her sleep patterns are just starting to mature so those little chunks of sleep are consolidating. Hopefully the same thing will happen for your LO :flower:


----------



## katrinalorien

A little off topic, but have you noticed how many of us on this thread live in the U.S.? Its just different for this forum!


----------



## jessicatunnel

Bananaz, do you still swaddle Elsie? We sometimes still do because frankly she still really needs it at times. We swaddle her 50% of the time and keep her umswaddled the other 50%. 
I made another thread that I was watching her nap earlier and she still has her startle reflex which is another reason why I think she wakes up a lot. 

Two nights ago she went back to waking every 2 hours or so, then last night she slept a four hour stretch. So her sleep is still allllll over the place.


----------



## jessicatunnel

katrinalorien said:


> A little off topic, but have you noticed how many of us on this thread live in the U.S.? Its just different for this forum!

I hadn't noticed that, but its pretty cool!


----------



## Shadowy Lady

Noelle - yes, I shall start that today. I just put her to nap in her swing minus the soother and she's been asleep for an hour :thumbup: will do the same tonight....Once I figure out the soother situation I will start putting her down to nap in her crib too...

Katrina - Ya I know except for this Canuck:haha: I'm also surprised at lack of Brits in this thread though.


----------



## bananaz

jessicatunnel said:


> Bananaz, do you still swaddle Elsie? We sometimes still do because frankly she still really needs it at times. We swaddle her 50% of the time and keep her umswaddled the other 50%.
> I made another thread that I was watching her nap earlier and she still has her startle reflex which is another reason why I think she wakes up a lot.
> 
> Two nights ago she went back to waking every 2 hours or so, then last night she slept a four hour stretch. So her sleep is still allllll over the place.

No, I don't swaddle her at all anymore, but I really wish I could! Unfortunately Elsie is just too active to sleep safely in a swaddle. She also still has her startle reflex, though it's nowhere near as bad as it used to be. 

Honestly if Lilly needs the swaddle then I say use it for as long as you can!


----------



## aliss

Shadowy Lady said:


> Katrina - Ya I know except for this Canuck:haha: I'm also surprised at lack of Brits in this thread though.

Oooh me too though!!! Except I am a Vancouver transplant. However, I feel much more "at home" running to New York and Vermont since I live in French Canada


----------



## Noelle610

Shadowy Lady said:


> Noelle - yes, I shall start that today. I just put her to nap in her swing minus the soother and she's been asleep for an hour :thumbup: will do the same tonight....Once I figure out the soother situation I will start putting her down to nap in her crib too...
> 
> Katrina - Ya I know except for this Canuck:haha: I'm also surprised at lack of Brits in this thread though.

So glad it worked! I bet the soother thing is hard for a minute but resolves itself quickly.


----------



## katrinalorien

!!!!!!! Lily just put herself to sleep completely awake, no nursing at all!!

And... no crying at all! I put her down after singing her naptime song, she stared at the video camera for a while, and then.. I went in and checked on her in a few minutes because I hadn't heard anything.. and she was out... 


Wow....


----------



## MrsPear

I'm in England :flower:

Well, I started rocking Joni at 6:30pm, she was in bed by 7:05pm (sleepy but not asleep after one false start where I put her in too soon) and now it is 7:25 and she is still silent. So that's a good sign! Even if she wakes up she has definitely managed to get herself to sleep in there, so I consider that a total success! :happydance:


----------



## Shadowy Lady

Aliss - hahah ya living more central has its advantages. We go to NYC annually it's 7 hours drive from Ottawa :D We even did DC once but it was for xmas and it took friggin 12 hours coz of the snow and fog! Not doing that again!!

Mrs Pear - great progress!

Katrina - yey! Send some sleep vibes my way too ;)

Noelle - tonight DH is in charge so we will keep the soother. But we'll start tomorrow night with soother elimination process. We also still swaddle her and have to see if she prefers that or would like to be in a sleep sack and use her hands to sooth...

Anyone not swaddle 3 months old baby and have them sleep great?


----------



## lysh

I have been out of the loop since I started work on Tuesday- my days are much more hectic! I wake up at 5, out the door at 7 and I get home between 3:30-4 (depending where LO is during the day). 

And, boy, am I TIRED. Not only is my work day nonstop (with the addition of two pumping sessions thrown in) but I am still exhausted from waking up to nurse LO. She tends to go down around 6:30 then wakes up around 9:30-10 for a nursing. I am usually in bed by 8:30 (spend the evening getting ready for the next day and getting my school day planned out) so I only get a short sleep at that point. Then she is up around 1-1:30 for another nursing. That is typically my longest stretch of sleep (3 hours). Nursing sessions take about 20-30 minutes. Then LO decides to try to wake up around 4. Sometimes she will cry for less than 5 minutes then go back to sleep. Other times it is a battle. So that is usually just a 2 hour stretch, and that is if I am able to go back to sleep right away. I have been having trouble with that lately.

I will have to back read if I get a chance tomorrow to catch up! Right now, I just put LO down (she stayed up later than usual- 7:20) and I am going to bed!!!!!


----------



## Strike

I am a horrible mom. Chantal's been fussy and crying since 10pm and it's now 0130 in the morn. I've fed her to the point where she is taking neither boob or bottle and she's still crying. I finally snapped and took her bassinet from our room to her own and closed the door.
Of course, she's stopped crying.

LO is out of town until later this morning so he can't help me.

Update 10 minutes later and she's crying. Just can't bring myself to comfort her right now.


----------



## Noelle610

Strike said:


> I am a horrible mom. Chantal's been fussy and crying since 10pm and it's now 0130 in the morn. I've fed her to the point where she is taking neither boob or bottle and she's still crying. I finally snapped and took her bassinet from our room to her own and closed the door.
> Of course, she's stopped crying.
> 
> LO is out of town until later this morning so he can't help me.
> 
> Update 10 minutes later and she's crying. Just can't bring myself to comfort her right now.

You're not a terrible mom! I think most of us on this thread would admit to needing to walk away and catch our breath for a moment in tough times. Your baby is so young. It will get better, I promise! Does she have reflux?


----------



## aliss

Strike, do not feel bad about putting here there & closing the door! When you're going to break, you walk away. We've ALL done it (I don't even know how many times I did with my 1st... crying, screaming etc). My mom told me that once she rang my grandma's doorbell (her MIL), pushed me towards her, and ran away!!! I was colicky too. You'd be surprised how many GOOD mothers do that.


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## katrinalorien

Strike said:


> I am a horrible mom. Chantal's been fussy and crying since 10pm and it's now 0130 in the morn. I've fed her to the point where she is taking neither boob or bottle and she's still crying. I finally snapped and took her bassinet from our room to her own and closed the door.
> Of course, she's stopped crying.
> 
> LO is out of town until later this morning so he can't help me.
> 
> Update 10 minutes later and she's crying. Just can't bring myself to comfort her right now.

What everyone else said, and I want to add that being a good mom means doing this whenever you have to, and knowing what you need to be doing to really do what's best for the baby. Sometimes that is taking a break!


lysh - so good to hear from you again, I forgot you had gone back to work. I was wondering when we'd talk to you again (course I was hoping it wouldn't happen). Sounds so tiring. That's so tough.

Last night here was not great, but started well. We invited my brother over, but DH wanted to go out to eat and didn't look at the time so we got home after her bedtime which meant she screamed the whole way home and was overtired. We did get her into bed with only a little fussing and she slept for four hours, but it was because she was overtired. Then DH made fun of me like "oh see? It doesn't matter if we go out because she's good now, she sleeps" and I said "that's because YOU don't get up with her in the night" I could have spit nails I was so mad. He just doesn't understand at all and is starting to have less and less sympathy, but I woke him ONCE last week about an hour before he's supposed to get up to help with a diaper that I needed his help on and he got angry at me! Really? 

Ok that rant over, but after that she did 1-2 hr stretches with a 45 min stretch in there as well. So really a regression if you want to know the truth, but I think its because she was OT when we put her down for the night. She got up for her last feeding at 6:30, and I just tried to put her down again, but her normal wake up time is 7:15 or so, so I really doubt that she will go back to sleep.


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## bananaz

Strike said:


> I am a horrible mom. Chantal's been fussy and crying since 10pm and it's now 0130 in the morn. I've fed her to the point where she is taking neither boob or bottle and she's still crying. I finally snapped and took her bassinet from our room to her own and closed the door.
> Of course, she's stopped crying.
> 
> LO is out of town until later this morning so he can't help me.
> 
> Update 10 minutes later and she's crying. Just can't bring myself to comfort her right now.


You're not a horrible mom at all. Self-care is one of the most important pieces of being a good mom, IMO, and sometimes that means letting the baby cry for a few minutes so you can collect yourself. If you're totally frazzled and upset you're not going to be able to look after your baby properly. I remember someone making the comparison of how adults are supposed to put on their own oxygen masks before putting on their children's masks during emergencies on airplanes, and I think that's right on - if you're passed out on the ground, how are you going to be able to help your kid? You're doing the best you can so hang in there, mama :hugs:


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## Shadowy Lady

Katrina - awww, I'm sorry to read your night got messed up:hugs: sometimes men need to be reminded that they're in this baby raising too...She's also his baby so he's gotta help. It's exhausting for one person to handle it all:wacko:

So we were gonna wait till tonight to wean the soother as it was my night off. However, my DH insisted that we start last night and he could try it alone. We bathed her, read her a book and then I fed her, put her down drowsy at her usual 8 pm. She started fussing wanting her soother, we waited one minute, then DH went in and told her it was ok and go to sleep and came back out. She fussed again and this time he went in after 3 minutes and reassured her and left again. It worked this time and she slept so I went downstairs to sleep at around 10 pm.

I woke up at 5:30 am thinking DH prob had a terrible night and I found him asleep in bed, lol! I laid next to him and around 6 am heard Sofia being awake. I went to her, changed her and brought her to living room for the day. She took a nap in her bouncer between 7-8 am. DH told me later that she woke up at 2 am for her night feed and had her bottle. He put her down after and repeated the 8 pm steps but he only had to go in once before she slept again till 6 am :thumbup:

This was a lot easier than I had though:happydance: though I will be repeating this till she does not need her soother at night at all. She's napping now in her swing (w/o) soother as well. She's been down for 1.5 hours so I got to start decorating our tree:happydance: I'm now convinced that I had actually messed up her sleep with giving her a soother once. 

Hope everyone else had and will have a great night:hugs:


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## bananaz

*lysh* - I'm sorry you're still getting such short stretches still. How is she eating during the day? Have you considered trying to gradually reduce the length of the night feeds? Three 20-30 minute nursing sessions seems like a really long time to me, but maybe that's just because my kid's a snacker.

*katrina* - I hate when people try to make you feel crazy for being concerned about your kid's sleep schedule! It's not like we want to be anxiously clock-watching all of the time, and obviously we wouldn't be making a big deal out of it had we not already learned from painful experience that it is a big deal! Oy. I'm sorry you had a rough night, I hope tonight's better.


We actually had a decent night last night! After how awful the week was my mom came over again. I decided that I wasn't going to feed her before 2am so we had planned to try progressive waiting with checks for all wakings before then, but as it turned out that wasn't necessary at all. LO only woke three times and during the first two (11pm and 1:40am) she just yelled and then talked to herself for 10 minutes before finding one of her stuffed frogs and cuddling it to sleep. Her third waking was at 3:15am and she didn't really start crying that time either, she just kept resettling herself and then waking up and fussing so I went in and nursed her for 5 minutes and then she slept until 6:40am! 

I know it's too soon to call this progress but I'm desperately hoping this means that my gradual night weaning efforts are having some effect.


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## MrsPear

lysh said:


> I have been out of the loop since I started work on Tuesday- my days are much more hectic! I wake up at 5, out the door at 7 and I get home between 3:30-4 (depending where LO is during the day).
> 
> And, boy, am I TIRED. Not only is my work day nonstop (with the addition of two pumping sessions thrown in) but I am still exhausted from waking up to nurse LO. She tends to go down around 6:30 then wakes up around 9:30-10 for a nursing. I am usually in bed by 8:30 (spend the evening getting ready for the next day and getting my school day planned out) so I only get a short sleep at that point. Then she is up around 1-1:30 for another nursing. That is typically my longest stretch of sleep (3 hours). Nursing sessions take about 20-30 minutes. Then LO decides to try to wake up around 4. Sometimes she will cry for less than 5 minutes then go back to sleep. Other times it is a battle. So that is usually just a 2 hour stretch, and that is if I am able to go back to sleep right away. I have been having trouble with that lately.
> 
> I will have to back read if I get a chance tomorrow to catch up! Right now, I just put LO down (she stayed up later than usual- 7:20) and I am going to bed!!!!!

You have such a long day and such broken sleep. It's so hard getting back to sleep isn't it. I thought it was just me until I came on here. I hope you have a better night, you deserve a good few hours. xx


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## MrsPear

Strike said:


> I am a horrible mom. Chantal's been fussy and crying since 10pm and it's now 0130 in the morn. I've fed her to the point where she is taking neither boob or bottle and she's still crying. I finally snapped and took her bassinet from our room to her own and closed the door.
> Of course, she's stopped crying.
> 
> LO is out of town until later this morning so he can't help me.
> 
> Update 10 minutes later and she's crying. Just can't bring myself to comfort her right now.

When you need to walk away, walk away. Just do something to calm yourself a little. Take a few breaths, pour a drink...it's fine, honestly. We have ALL been there. You are not a bad mum. All of us on this thread have experienced continuous crying and we know what it does and how it feels. You will get through it, and in the mean time keep reading the comments left for you on here and remember that there is no shame in being at breaking point. Even good mum's step away from time to time xxx


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## MrsPear

Katrina- When Joni is overtired she sleeps badly too. It's definitely related. And SO fruastrating being the one who always gets up. I have a great OH, but he drives me wild in the night, and not in a good way! He got up with her once a week ago about 4:30am, came back about 5:30 when she was asleep again, put her down and went back to sleep, then I got up with her about an hour later when she was up for the day. He had a lie in- fair enough we take it in turns. But today he said to me it wasn't a lie in and didn't count because he'd already been up beforehand- I nearly popped! As if I haven't been up for 30 minutes in every 2 hours for the past two months! Yet my lie ins still "count". He's such a good guy, but jeez he can be a moron! 

Anyway, exciting news is that Joni cut her first tooth today!! So no wonder she has been clingy and only sleeping in my arms. As soon as I felt it, I burst into tears because I feel it's such a big leap away from being a baby. OH said, "I really don't understand this emotion you are feeling". I thought, just you wait, one day when she first walks, or talks, or puts on her first school uniform, I'm sure he'll get his own wave of sadness!x


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## katrinalorien

Thanks for all the support. Its hard because I'm also the only one who read the sleep books, and he won't read them, so I'm the "expert". But then he thinks I'm being pushy when I want my way about her sleep. Ah well, he's great in a lot of other ways.

Sounds like you guys had great nights! I know mine was basically a result of being OT, so I hope tonight goes better. Dr. W's book really describes Lily's sleep patterns perfectly. She seems to wake the most between 3 am and 5 am, but that's because that's her "light" sleep period, then goes back into deep sleep for a while. But last night her "deep" sleep period didn't even last as long.


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## Noelle610

Shadowy Lady, what great news! I sometimes think our babies are more adaptable than we give them credit for. 

MrsPear, congrats on the tooth!

Bananaz, glad to hear you had such a great night.

Lysh, I work full time too... I so hear you on the exhaustion! It can be really tough. How do us US moms do it? 12 weeks of maternity leave really is unfair. 

Katrina, totally relate... my DH and I argue about sleep. He's much more flexible, he thinks I read too much and that I over think it. 

Last night was quite good for us. Charlotte went to sleep at 6:30pm. DH decided to give her a dream feed around 10pm... that never worked for us before, but we've instated it because we don't want to take away night feeds cold turkey, but we also don't want her to be confused and be fed when she wakes only some of the time. Anyway, she woke at 3:30am and 4:30am briefly, but put herself back to sleep within 5 minutes both times! (Katrina, my LO is definitely more wakeful during those early morning light sleep hours) She then slept until 6:30am.


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## MrsPear

Noelle it sounds like you have started a brilliant trend! You were right, reflux from feeding was making her miserable at night. And sounds like she is already used to not feeding until morning!

Joni slept terribly last night! BUT I don't want to be downbeat all the time: I am now instigating a STRICT night time routine, and it is lights out after bath so she has no more stimulation until she sleeps. It's a shame for OH, means he won't see her at all 4 or 5 days a week BUT is comforting a screaming baby really quality time anyway? Last night was day 3 and it took an hour BUT there were hardly any tears and most of that I was just holding her, not even rocking. So less stimulation definitely relaxes her.

Also, OH has just gone to BUY THE CHRISTMAS TREE. We went yesterday but then realised how are we supposed to fold the back seats down with a baby in there!? Can't wait to get decorating!


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## aliss

I had a fantastic night. Up every 45 minutes but a "shhh" and back to sleep. Only 1 feed. Put the toddler in a backwards 1 piece PJ suit and he was unable to rip off his diaper (oh how he tried).

Good luck MrsPear! We found a strict repetitive bedtime routine made huge improvements for us. It's like he finally started to "get it", LOL.


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## katrinalorien

Mrs Pear - yeah we put up our christmas tree! It was awesome!!

Well DH and I resolved our differences and talked it out, so I feel a lot better in that department. Tonight (because its still night here) Lily did decently, actually pretty well I'd say. We got her in bed at 7:30, then she slept till 11:00 (3 1/2 hours is really good for her!) Then I fed her, and she woke at 2:30. I got up to feed her after waiting a few minutes but decided to go to the bathroom first, and she was back asleep before I was finished, so I didn't feel too bad about that. Then she slept till 4, and I fed her at 4. So that was 5 hours between a feed. Then she got up at 5:30, and she needed a little bit of comfort once but now she's asleep. That dang 5-5:30 wake up is definitely the worst. She has yet to self settle through that one, I always have to help her to sleep. Its right before she's out for a good while though. I'm sure she'll be up for the day between 6:30-7:30, so I'd better go catch a few more z's before then!


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## Noelle610

Last night was tough. Charlotte was really fussy between 3am and 5am. I REALLY wanted to just feed her, but I didn't want the past few days to go to waste. We spent a long time soothing her and I was really tired. She woke for the day at 6:30am and wasn't even that hungry, so I'm confident she didn't really need it. I think her reflux may have been bothering her as OH fed her some new food later in the day that maybe didn't agree with her.

I do however, need to have some perspective. Charlotte slept from 6:30pm to 3:00am with a dream feed. That's pretty amazing compared to where we were when we started this thread.


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## katrinalorien

Noelle - it does sound like that's progress, but its always hard when there's even a slight regression. I know if something has happened for three days I expect it from then on and I can be pretty upset if it doesn't go well. But I really think you made the right decision with not feeding her.


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## Noelle610

Question, do any of you ladies suffer from Postpartum Depression/Anxiety/OCD? I do and I genuinely think lack of sleep has contributed. I feel depressed when I'm utterly exhausted. I feel anxious because I don't know what each night will bring. I feel obsessive when I try to find the solution and find myself spinning in circles. It's tough! Then of course there is the feeling of being a failure and doing something wrong.

I tend to be prone to anxiety and depression, but I've really had it under control with good therapy in the past. If you knew me in real life, you would never believe it. I seem like a really happy, laid back person! And I think I truly am when I'm not suffering from either affliction. I was sharing with an aquiantance the other day that I'm on the anxious side and she just didn't believe me.

Anyway, I'm an exclusive pumper and I'm in the process of weaning. I am thinking of going on an antidepressant. I feel embarrassed about it, but I think it would help. I spoke with a few moms in my moms group who have older babies, but had a similar experience with the sleep thing when they were younger. They both confirmed that although an antidepressant didn't help their babies sleep better, it helped them cope. It also helped them feel less anxious so that they could sleep when their babies did.


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## aliss

Oh, I'm pretty sure my colicky boy was the cause of my 1 year of PND. I had no issues with mental health before (seriously, how many psych exams did I go through to work in law enforcement? Hah...) but it hit me like bricks!! And when his reflux went away, so did my PND. And my non colicky baby, felt normal immediately after birth.

It has been shown that high needs babies increase the rate of PND for sure.


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## katrinalorien

I think so. When we have gone out, I am always so anxious she's going to explode into screaming, and it has caused us no end of pain! And then when we're at home sometimes all I can think about is sleep, and how I don't have it, but then when she does sleep for a few hours, I keep thinking she's going to wake up so I can't settle myself. 

I think it has caused a lot of the fights between my husband and I as well.


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## bananaz

Noelle610 said:


> Question, do any of you ladies suffer from Postpartum Depression/Anxiety/OCD? I do and I genuinely think lack of sleep has contributed. I feel depressed when I'm utterly exhausted. I feel anxious because I don't know what each night will bring. I feel obsessive when I try to find the solution and find myself spinning in circles. It's tough! Then of course there is the feeling of being a failure and doing something wrong.
> 
> I tend to be prone to anxiety and depression, but I've really had it under control with good therapy in the past. If you knew me in real life, you would never believe it. I seem like a really happy, laid back person! And I think I truly am when I'm not suffering from either affliction. I was sharing with an aquiantance the other day that I'm on the anxious side and she just didn't believe me.
> 
> Anyway, I'm an exclusive pumper and I'm in the process of weaning. I am thinking of going on an antidepressant. I feel embarrassed about it, but I think it would help. I spoke with a few moms in my moms group who have older babies, but had a similar experience with the sleep thing when they were younger. They both confirmed that although an antidepressant didn't help their babies sleep better, it helped them cope. It also helped them feel less anxious so that they could sleep when their babies did.


Yes, having a high-needs baby who won't sleep has definitely brought out my anxious side in a big way and I also find myself obsessing and feeling hopeless over the situation. In fact I have a custody hearing tomorrow and I'm 95% sure my ex is going to try to use my anxiety to prove that I'm an unfit parent (and of course having that mess looming over my head has not made me more relaxed :sick:). I would definitely try an anti-anxiety med if I weren't breastfeeding.


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## katrinalorien

bananaz said:


> Noelle610 said:
> 
> 
> Question, do any of you ladies suffer from Postpartum Depression/Anxiety/OCD? I do and I genuinely think lack of sleep has contributed. I feel depressed when I'm utterly exhausted. I feel anxious because I don't know what each night will bring. I feel obsessive when I try to find the solution and find myself spinning in circles. It's tough! Then of course there is the feeling of being a failure and doing something wrong.
> 
> I tend to be prone to anxiety and depression, but I've really had it under control with good therapy in the past. If you knew me in real life, you would never believe it. I seem like a really happy, laid back person! And I think I truly am when I'm not suffering from either affliction. I was sharing with an aquiantance the other day that I'm on the anxious side and she just didn't believe me.
> 
> Anyway, I'm an exclusive pumper and I'm in the process of weaning. I am thinking of going on an antidepressant. I feel embarrassed about it, but I think it would help. I spoke with a few moms in my moms group who have older babies, but had a similar experience with the sleep thing when they were younger. They both confirmed that although an antidepressant didn't help their babies sleep better, it helped them cope. It also helped them feel less anxious so that they could sleep when their babies did.
> 
> 
> Yes, having a high-needs baby who won't sleep has definitely brought out my anxious side in a big way. In fact I have a custody hearing tomorrow and I'm 95% sure my ex is going to try to use my anxiety to prove that I'm an unfit parent (and of course having that mess looming over my head has not made me more relaxed :sick:). I would definitely try an anti-anxiety med if I weren't breastfeeding.Click to expand...



Oh my bananaz - Sending lots of positive vibes your way.


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## bananaz

katrinalorien said:


> Oh my bananaz - Sending lots of positive vibes your way.


Thank you. The chances of him actually getting custody are very small given that I've been LO's primary caretaker since birth and her only caretaker since he took off when she was 2 months old, but I can't help freaking out anyway :nope:


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## bananaz

*MrsPear* - I hope the new bedtime routine continues working well for you, it sounds like you're definitely headed in the right direction. I think I also need to work on reducing pre-bedtime stimulation for LO.

*aliss* - Holy cow, only 1 feed? That's great. Is he in your room with you? Maybe you can figure out how to "shhh" him without getting out of bed :haha:

*katrina* - I hate that 5am waking too! I think the issue is that they're not quite as tired at that point so they have a harder time going back to sleep without help.

*Noelle* - So glad you had such a good night! It seems like the dream feed was a good idea, I wish I could do that!

Last night was not as good as the night before but it was still pretty decent. She went down at 6:30 and woke at 11:20 (so almost a 5 hour stretch!), 2:30 and 4:45, and then was up for the day at 6am. My mom handled the 11:20 waking and it was kind of a nightmare, LO took more than an hour to go back to sleep and that was with shushing/singing/patting. When she got up at 2:30 I waited a few minutes to see if she would calm but she was obviously hungry so I went in and nursed her for 5 minutes and she went straight back to sleep. The good part of the night was that she self-settled at her 4:45 waking. I was actually about to run in there and feed her because I was afraid she would decide to get up for the day otherwise, but my mom made me wait and sure enough she went back to sleep on her own after about 10 minutes :happydance:


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## Shadowy Lady

Bananaz - sending tones of positive vibes your way hun:hugs: both with the custody battle and the sleep. 

Katrina - I'm glad you had a better night and also sorted out issues with OH. You gotta do this as a team:hugs:

Noelle - glad the dream feed worked and hoping things stay great for you guys :) We tried dreem feeding a while back and it didn't work so we gave up. I think I'll just go on like this and wean her off her 2am feed after 4 months if she doesn't do so herself. 

I took another night off and for the first time since giving birth, I feel well rested. I went to sleep at 10 pm and didn't wake up at all until 4:30 am. I then drank some water and slept again till about 7 am:happydance:

I put Sofia to bed before sleeping myself at 8 pm and DH took charge for the second night. He told me she woke up for her feed at 2 am, drank it and went down again till 6:45 am. She never fussed for her soother. Poor OH is pretty tired though mostly his own fault. He watched Top Gear on his iPad till 1 am though he knew he would be in charge.....men:shrug:


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## bananaz

Shadowy Lady said:


> I took another night off and for the first time since giving birth, I feel well rested. I went to sleep at 10 pm and didn't wake up at all until 4:30 am. I then drank some water and slept again till about 7 am:happydance:
> 
> I put Sofia to bed before sleeping myself at 8 pm and DH took charge for the second night. He told me she woke up for her feed at 2 am, drank it and went down again till 6:45 am. She never fussed for her soother. Poor OH is pretty tired though mostly his own fault. He watched Top Gear on his iPad till 1 am though he knew he would be in charge.....men:shrug:


Yay, I'm so glad you finally got some real rest! Does your DH feel like coming over and handling my LO for a night? He can bring his iPad :haha:


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## MrsPear

bananaz said:


> katrinalorien said:
> 
> 
> Oh my bananaz - Sending lots of positive vibes your way.
> 
> 
> Thank you. The chances of him actually getting custody are very small given that I've been LO's primary caretaker since birth and her only caretaker since he took off when she was 2 months old, but I can't help freaking out anyway :nope:Click to expand...

Lots of positive vibes xx


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## aliss

Oh big hug bananaz, I had no idea you were a single mother, that is so difficult and then sleep issues to boot!

He has no grounds. You would have to walk into court with a heroin needle dangling out of your arm in order to be proven unfit in OR. Besides, if he thought it was THAT big of a deal then Im guessing he called CPS every week and did not walk out at 2 months? Yeah... ok, nice try buddy. Blowing smoke for sure.


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## bananaz

aliss said:


> Oh big hug bananaz, I had no idea you were a single mother, that is so difficult and then sleep issues to boot!
> 
> He has no grounds. You would have to walk into court with a heroin needle dangling out of your arm in order to be proven unfit in OR. Besides, if he thought it was THAT big of a deal then Im guessing he called CPS every week and did not walk out at 2 months? Yeah... ok, nice try buddy. Blowing smoke for sure.

Thanks, I appreciate the reassurance. And that's a very good point, he's done absolutely nothing to express his concerns over my apparent incompetence aside from sending me some insulting text messages. I just can't wait for this mess to be over with, taking care of LO is stressful and time-consuming enough!


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## Noelle610

I typed out a long response and accidentally deleted it! Ugh...

Bananaz, he doesn't stand a chance. Thinking of you. 

Shadowy lady, dream feeds never worked for us either. Not sure why they do now. My LO defies all rules of logic and reason :)


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## Shadowy Lady

Bananaz - hahaha I shall if you pay for a ticket from here to Oregon :D lotsa good vibes to you for tonight sweetie.

Noelle - Based on your experience, I'm getting tempted to give the dreamfeed another try since I'm getting 6-7 hours stretches from Sofia again. She goes down usually at 8 pm and it would be nice if her long stretch would start at 10-10:30 when I go to bed....hmmmm...

So i had to let Sofia fuss for 2 minutes after I put her down and left the room. I looked at the watch and was about to go back in to comfort her when I saw on the monitor that she was asleep. DH is outta town tonight and tomorrow night so hoping things stay ok :/


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## lysh

Hey ladies....
I am still trying to catch up with the posts...this working full time is exhausting and I have little 'down' time these days. 

Shadowy Lady- It is so nice you can get a night off! My DH would love to take over for a night so I could get some rest, however, LO refuses bottles during the night and will scream bloody murder until she gets to nurse.

Katrina- Those early morning awakenings are hard. My LO wants to wake up between 4-4:30. Occasionally she will go back to sleep after a little bit of crying, but some mornings she just is done sleeping and we just have to get up with her. Right now, 5:00 would be progress!

bananaz- Oh my- I had no idea you were a single mom as well and having to deal with an ass of an ex! Hugs to you- I cannot imagine how stressful this is. I hope this gets handled quickly so you can just focus on LO!!! You are a strong woman! 

Noelle- I could have written that myself (about the anxiety). I have managed for 3 years medication free (thanks to therapy) but I do find having a high needs baby that does not sleep well tests my confidence in my ability to handle the anxiety (and on the flip side depression). Now with working I am really struggling. I am so anxious every night. I am so freaking tired, yet I cannot relax when I lay down because I am waiting to hear the cry. If you need to go back on medication do not feel like you are failing- it might just be for a little while until things settle down (at least with the sleep). If I get to a point where I feel I can no longer be a proficient at my job at school and as a mom, I would consider it too.

As far as sleep- the last two nights have not been terrible. Putting her down has been rough, but Friday night she ended up having a 4 hour stretch from 1-5! It was amazing. Last night she had a 5 hour stretch from 7-12. Then she had a 3 hour stretch. Granted I would prefer the 5 hour stretch to be later, but it shows me she can do it. I am hoping that now it is a work night she can repeat some longer stretches!

MrsPear- Good luck with the routine!


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## katrinalorien

Goodness lysh - I always forget that it could be worse. She could be waking up and staying up, luckily I have always been able to get her back down *fingers crossed*


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## Strike

WTF!?

Yesterday was wonderful. Tonight is like a rehash of Friday, and DH is sleeping through it all of course.

LO will cry and fuss and is wide awake. No matter what I do I can't get her to settle. The , 30 minutes into it, she decides she wants to eat. Five minutes later she doesn't want to eat anymore. But no sleep of course.


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## katrinalorien

Sorry Strike!! Is yours still a newborn? She may yet grow out of it! I hope she does for your sake, and soon!

We had the best night in a long time. Went down at 7:20 ish, woke up at 12:30 then 4:30 then up for the day at 6:15. Really really not bad. In fact 2 wake ups is stellar for her.


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## Noelle610

I'm happy to hear about all of these good nights! Charlotte slept 6:30pm to 5:30am yesterday. I really, really, really can't believe it. Granted there was a dream feed in there around 9pm. It seems way to good to be true. Is it possible that spacing her night feeds out is really helping her reflux and encouraging her to sleep longer? 

When we have had issues these past week, it's been between 3am and 5am. Why does that seem to be the crazy time for babies? I think Charlotte really struggles to self settle then and needs my help. She's doing so well and of course I'm not against soothing a 6 month old baby, but I think it's interesting that those hours seem to be tough for many moms that I talk to. Part of me wants to complain, because I have to get up for work at 5am, which means I'm often up from 3am. The other part of me wants to smack myself in the face... When Charlotte was waking hourly I would have killed any mom who complained about that schedule.


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## Shadowy Lady

Noelle - so glad things are still great, wow Charlotte did 11 hour stretch! Good for you mamma :) 

Katrina - glad to hear you had a good night too :) Your LO is on the right path of longer stretches.

Lysh - Honestly I don't know how you US moms work and take care of babies. I love my job but love even more the one year mat leave the Canadian government grants us. Glad to hear you LO is sleeping longer though. Having my finger crossed for you...

Sofia did another good night and I managed to get decent sleep though DH was not there to help. She went down at 8:20 pm, woke up for boob at 2:45 am and then down again till 7:00 am this morning. She again went w/o soother. She was slightly fussy at 8:15 pm but still went down with no crying and no soother. She seems to be delaying her middle of the night wakeup call by 30 mins each night so I'm crossing my fingers that she'll sttn by herself and I wouldn't have to wean her off that middle of the night feed :D

I do find it harder to get her to nap w/o her soother though. She just woke up from an hour nap w/o her soother and in a stationary swing but it was definitely tough getting her to start napping :/ I really wanna not give her the soother for any kinda sleep (just in car seat and when needed for fussiness) so I'm gonna keep trying...


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## Noelle610

Wow Sofia is doing great! I knew she'd adjust quickly to not having the soother. 

I'm really nervous because DH and I are taking Charlotte to his holiday party on Thursday. It's an hour away and it starts around her bedtime. It means so, so much to him, so I've agreed to go. I'm just worried being off of her schedule will really mess with her. He feels like it will be fine - she'll probably sleep in her car seat most of the time (she is good at that). I guess worse case scenario we regress a little and get her back on schedule eventually. On one hand, I'm afraid to deviate from the norm, but on the other hand I do feel we have to live our lives a little bit.


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## jessicatunnel

Noelle610 said:


> Wow Sofia is doing great! I knew she'd adjust quickly to not having the soother.
> 
> I'm really nervous because DH and I are taking Charlotte to his holiday party on Thursday. It's an hour away and it starts around her bedtime. It means so, so much to him, so I've agreed to go. I'm just worried being off of her schedule will really mess with her. He feels like it will be fine - she'll probably sleep in her car seat most of the time (she is good at that). I guess worse case scenario we regress a little and get her back on schedule eventually. On one hand, I'm afraid to deviate from the norm, but on the other hand I do feel we have to live our lives a little bit.

We had a family meeting we had to go to last week that started right at Lilly's bedtime, and I was really worried she was going to be extra cranky (especially since she didn't have her last nap beforehand), tired, and her sleep would be even worse and everything would just be horrible. Well she did AWESOME, was awake and loved all the attention she was getting from everyone, even tried to snag some people's food when they weren't looking lol, we got home and she went straight to sleep and slept for seven hours! And the next night everything was back to normal, she went right back to her routine. I'm sure things will be fine for you, enjoy the party. :D

Lilly's sleep is still everywhere, but I definitely think we're getting somewhere. Every night she goes to bed at 6 or 7, and wakes at least three times before I go to bed. Then she will do a 3-4 stretch of sleep, wake up and then sleep for another two hours, wake up for a feed and sleep for another 1 or 2 hours before waking up for the day. 

Our night last night went like this:
Bed at 6:30pm
Woke at 8pm
Woke at 11pm
Woke at 230am for a bottle
Woke at 430am
Woke for the day at 730am.


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## Noelle610

jessicatunnel said:


> Noelle610 said:
> 
> 
> Wow Sofia is doing great! I knew she'd adjust quickly to not having the soother.
> 
> I'm really nervous because DH and I are taking Charlotte to his holiday party on Thursday. It's an hour away and it starts around her bedtime. It means so, so much to him, so I've agreed to go. I'm just worried being off of her schedule will really mess with her. He feels like it will be fine - she'll probably sleep in her car seat most of the time (she is good at that). I guess worse case scenario we regress a little and get her back on schedule eventually. On one hand, I'm afraid to deviate from the norm, but on the other hand I do feel we have to live our lives a little bit.
> 
> We had a family meeting we had to go to last week that started right at Lilly's bedtime, and I was really worried she was going to be extra cranky (especially since she didn't have her last nap beforehand), tired, and her sleep would be even worse and everything would just be horrible. Well she did AWESOME, was awake and loved all the attention she was getting from everyone, even tried to snag some people's food when they weren't looking lol, we got home and she went straight to sleep and slept for seven hours! And the next night everything was back to normal, she went right back to her routine. I'm sure things will be fine for you, enjoy the party. :D
> 
> Lilly's sleep is still everywhere, but I definitely think we're getting somewhere. Every night she goes to bed at 6 or 7, and wakes at least three times before I go to bed. Then she will do a 3-4 stretch of sleep, wake up and then sleep for another two hours, wake up for a feed and sleep for another 1 or 2 hours before waking up for the day.
> 
> Our night last night went like this:
> Bed at 6:30pm
> Woke at 8pm
> Woke at 11pm
> Woke at 230am for a bottle
> Woke at 430am
> Woke for the day at 730am.Click to expand...

That makes me feel SO much better! I know that overtired babies wake a lot, but I think it helps that Charlotte isn't chronically overtired. She naps really well during the day (now two 90 minutes to 2 hour naps) and is sleep well at night, so my hope is that she'll just crash afterward :)

Sounds like Lilly is making progress! It's nice that her most frequent wakings come when you're still awake and that she tends to do longer stretches when you want to sleep. It's often the opposite - longer stretches at the beginning of the night.


----------



## katrinalorien

Noelle610 said:


> Wow Sofia is doing great! I knew she'd adjust quickly to not having the soother.
> 
> I'm really nervous because DH and I are taking Charlotte to his holiday party on Thursday. It's an hour away and it starts around her bedtime. It means so, so much to him, so I've agreed to go. I'm just worried being off of her schedule will really mess with her. He feels like it will be fine - she'll probably sleep in her car seat most of the time (she is good at that). I guess worse case scenario we regress a little and get her back on schedule eventually. On one hand, I'm afraid to deviate from the norm, but on the other hand I do feel we have to live our lives a little bit.


I totally agree. Dr. W's book kinda talks about that too - he says you should have exceptional days, and those days its ok if your LO misses a nap or has a later bedtime, but you should try to let your LO sleep in their bed as many other days as possible. I'm planning on having one of those "exceptional" days next week on Thursday. My mom and I are going out of town for the day, but she hasn't been here in 3 months, and we are going! She'll just have to nap in the carseat.


----------



## katrinalorien

jessica - glad you are having better nights, I hope they become consistent. That's one of the things I hated because it meant I never knew when I was going to have to wake up and whatnot.


----------



## katrinalorien

Ahhh bananaz I want an update!! :( Been thinking of you today!!


----------



## MrsPear

Banananaz (oops too many haha) I am thinking of you too. Think Aliss was right when she said you can be confident it will be okay but nonetheless I am sure you have been very worried.

Noelle- You can't have the same routine every night of the year. Go and have fun and Charlotte will get back into the routine the next night.

Jessica- Glad things are going in the right direction :flower: Hope it continues.

Joni got another tooth today! For the past three weeks I have spent at least two hours a night with her in my arms if not more. It is normally early morning about 5am, she is very tired and does sleep quite easily so it's not like she wants to get up (Thank goodness!), but the minute I try to put her down she screams. Do you think that is teething related? 

I am booking a holiday today :happydance: So nothing else really matters right now!


----------



## MrsPear

Strike said:


> WTF!?
> 
> Yesterday was wonderful. Tonight is like a rehash of Friday, and DH is sleeping through it all of course.
> 
> LO will cry and fuss and is wide awake. No matter what I do I can't get her to settle. The , 30 minutes into it, she decides she wants to eat. Five minutes later she doesn't want to eat anymore. But no sleep of course.

Poor you! In the first couple of months it is SO hard to work out any sort of feeding patterns. I thought I was going mad back then. I really do feel for you. :hugs:

eta- I just recalculated and your LO is 2.5 months. So I really hope the 'want food/don't want food' nightmare will end soon for you. For me it was just past 3 months that my LO really started to get a proper feeding routine x


----------



## bananaz

katrinalorien said:


> Ahhh bananaz I want an update!! :( Been thinking of you today!!

Thanks for all the positive thoughts. The custody hearing went about as well as I could've hoped for because my ex-OH didn't show up, lol. So I was granted everything I asked for in my petition, namely sole physical and legal custody :happydance: I got a strangely apologetic text message from my ex afterward saying that he got caught in traffic, but somehow I'm having a hard time feeling sympathetic. Anyway, I'm so relieved and I'm trying not to think about the inevitable fallout when my ex figures out what happened.

And back on topic, last night was pretty great. She went down kind of late (7:30pm) and got up kind of early (5:45am) but she only had two wakings, the first at 12:30am when she resettled herself after fussing for about 15 minutes, and the second at 3:40am when I fed her. It feels like we're finally making real progress!


----------



## Noelle610

bananaz said:


> katrinalorien said:
> 
> 
> Ahhh bananaz I want an update!! :( Been thinking of you today!!
> 
> Thanks for all the positive thoughts. The custody hearing went about as well as I could've hoped for because my ex-OH didn't show up, lol. So I was granted everything I asked for in my petition, namely sole physical and legal custody :happydance: I got a strangely apologetic text message from my ex afterward saying that he got caught in traffic, but somehow I'm having a hard time feeling sympathetic. Anyway, I'm so relieved and I'm trying not to think about the inevitable fallout when my ex figures out what happened.
> 
> And back on topic, last night was pretty great. She went down kind of late (7:30pm) and got up kind of early (5:45am) but she only had two wakings, the first at 12:30am when she resettled herself after fussing for about 15 minutes, and the second at 3:40am when I fed her. It feels like we're finally making real progress!Click to expand...

Excuse me?! ... WTF? He didn't show? WOW. Glad it all went well for you!

So glad to hear you had a good night on top of it. I wouldn't even count the 12:30am waking since she resettled herself! All babies (and adults for that matter) wake through the course of the nigt, some just put themselves back to sleep more, ahem, "loudly" than others :)


----------



## katrinalorien

Sounds like everything is going well bananaz - so glad!


----------



## MrsPear

Wow Bananaz he didn't even show, that is shocking. But good for you.

And you had a good night too! I hope that without the court hanging over you, you will find that you are better able to sleep at night when your LO is.
x


----------



## Strike

MrsPear - Her adjusted age is barely 4 weeks.

DH and I are thinking it might be an issue with what I'm eating. we have a sneaking suspicion that she has an intolerance to cow's milk protein so, starting today, I'm on a dairy-free diet. We're off to the doc's on Thursday to see what he has to say. Thankfully she's still gaining weight at a good rate, but the blood in her stool is getting worse which may also explain her fussiness. I'm hoping we caught it early enough that there won't be any lasting issues.

She's ben pretty lethargic all day but, given how her night was, it's understandable.


----------



## katrinalorien

Good luck Strike!!! I hope the new diet works for you! Those first few weeks are REALLY tough


----------



## jessicatunnel

So glad things worked out Megan, and it's awesome you had such a good night too!


----------



## MrsPear

Strike said:


> MrsPear - Her adjusted age is barely 4 weeks.
> 
> DH and I are thinking it might be an issue with what I'm eating. we have a sneaking suspicion that she has an intolerance to cow's milk protein so, starting today, I'm on a dairy-free diet. We're off to the doc's on Thursday to see what he has to say. Thankfully she's still gaining weight at a good rate, but the blood in her stool is getting worse which may also explain her fussiness. I'm hoping we caught it early enough that there won't be any lasting issues.
> 
> She's ben pretty lethargic all day but, given how her night was, it's understandable.

I hope you get to the bottom of it soon. Things like this are so much more stressful when you're too tired as well xx


----------



## mrsbeano

Yuck. Mummy insomnia is the worst. We had an awful day yesterday that culminated in me having to leave town without getting my errands done with a screaming baby all the way home. 

I was so upset and DH just doesn't understand. He thinks he's a wonderful child and the truth is he is 100% better for DH. But for me, all he wants is to be held. I can't do anything all day. He won't just sit and entertain himself in the pushchair. As soon as we arrived yesterday he woke up after a 20 minute nap and screamed until I gave up and went home an hour later. He screamed until we were practically outside the front door again. 

I tried to get an early night but didn't fall asleep until 11 and woke up at 1.30 waiting for him to wake up. He woke at 2 and I didn't get back to sleep. 

I spent the whole day and night just thinking how disappointed I am that I don't enjoy being a Mum. I have a month left on maternity leave and feel like a spoilt brat that I haven't enjoyed it. Every other Mum doesn't want to leave their child and I'm looking forward to it. It isn't enjoyable to spend my days with him. DH just looks at me like I'm a monster. 

I'm glad that your LOs sleep is improving. Ours is all over the place, still heavily disrupted by rolling and last night he decided he wanted food again. There will always be something until he is 2/3 years old, I can just tell that he is going to be that child. 

I don't know why I signed up for this. :nope:


----------



## MrsPear

mrsbeano said:


> Yuck. Mummy insomnia is the worst. We had an awful day yesterday that culminated in me having to leave town without getting my errands done with a screaming baby all the way home.
> 
> I was so upset and DH just doesn't understand. He thinks he's a wonderful child and the truth is he is 100% better for DH. But for me, all he wants is to be held. I can't do anything all day. He won't just sit and entertain himself in the pushchair. As soon as we arrived yesterday he woke up after a 20 minute nap and screamed until I gave up and went home an hour later. He screamed until we were practically outside the front door again.
> 
> I tried to get an early night but didn't fall asleep until 11 and woke up at 1.30 waiting for him to wake up. He woke at 2 and I didn't get back to sleep.
> 
> I spent the whole day and night just thinking how disappointed I am that I don't enjoy being a Mum. I have a month left on maternity leave and feel like a spoilt brat that I haven't enjoyed it. Every other Mum doesn't want to leave their child and I'm looking forward to it. It isn't enjoyable to spend my days with him. DH just looks at me like I'm a monster.
> 
> I'm glad that your LOs sleep is improving. Ours is all over the place, still heavily disrupted by rolling and last night he decided he wanted food again. There will always be something until he is 2/3 years old, I can just tell that he is going to be that child.
> 
> I don't know why I signed up for this. :nope:

Do you know yesterday I could have written this myself. I feel so ashamed. I really love Joni, but I was trying to explain to OH, a lot of the time I don't actually enjoy being with her. I really think it's tiredness that does it. I feel like such an awful person inside because I don't think it's normal to feel this way. I think we may both be a bit depressed. I can't tell you what a relief it is to know that I am not alone though. 

Yesterday she cried for over an hour when I was trying to get her to take her first nap, so I ended up just putting her on the playmat and going on the computer to calm down. She finally had a nap of less than 30 minutes and then was still crying afterwards. I wanted to get ready to go to the library so I had to just put her down crying whilst I got dressed etc. Then we caught the bus, and she slept for about 20 minutes. So she was still knackered and we didn't have any fun at the library. She slept about the same on the way home, was completely overtired at home and we spent about 1.5 hours rocking, singing, doing anything to get her to sleep and she had about 15 minutes in all that time. Finally she went to bed (what a relief) and since 1:30 she's been up at least once an hour if not several times.

So all in all, I feel like my days are a real battle to get her to nap, dealing with the aftermath of not having a nap, and dreading nighttime when I won't get any sleep. 

I'm sorry to be on such a downer. I just feel so sad todya. Big hugs Mrsbeano, it truly isn't just you :hugs:


----------



## mrsbeano

MrsPear said:


> mrsbeano said:
> 
> 
> Do you know yesterday I could have written this myself. I feel so ashamed. I really love Joni, but I was trying to explain to OH, a lot of the time I don't actually enjoy being with her. I really think it's tiredness that does it. I feel like such an awful person inside because I don't think it's normal to feel this way. I think we may both be a bit depressed. I can't tell you what a relief it is to know that I am not alone though.
> 
> Yesterday she cried for over an hour when I was trying to get her to take her first nap, so I ended up just putting her on the playmat and going on the computer to calm down. She finally had a nap of less than 30 minutes and then was still crying afterwards. I wanted to get ready to go to the library so I had to just put her down crying whilst I got dressed etc. Then we caught the bus, and she slept for about 20 minutes. So she was still knackered and we didn't have any fun at the library. She slept about the same on the way home, was completely overtired at home and we spent about 1.5 hours rocking, singing, doing anything to get her to sleep and she had about 15 minutes in all that time. Finally she went to bed (what a relief) and since 1:30 she's been up at least once an hour if not several times.
> 
> So all in all, I feel like my days are a real battle to get her to nap, dealing with the aftermath of not having a nap, and dreading nighttime when I won't get any sleep.
> 
> I'm sorry to be on such a downer. I just feel so sad todya. Big hugs Mrsbeano, it truly isn't just you :hugs:
> 
> Thank you for responding. Feeling pretty lonely here and as you say, its nice to feel as though there's someone else there who understands, although I am also sorry that you're having a rough time of it.
> 
> I *KNOW* its the sleep deprivation and its a really vicious circle. Quinn has had 2 separate weeks where he has STTN. By the end of the second time around, I managed to relax enough and also STTN. The next night he woke up again and the previous nights I was still up waiting for him.
> 
> Just feeling sorry for myself. I need to snap out of it. I've told my husband that he needs to be home from work ASAP at the moment and I'm going to make an effort to go out on my own before I lose the plot completely.
> 
> I am giving up on trying to get out and about during the day with Quinn though. It is too stressful to try and get him to nap outside of his cot and I've had enough of being the only person with the screaming baby in the pram. Yesterday I cried in Boots ffs!
> 
> Never, ever, ever again. Ever.Click to expand...


----------



## MrsPear

mrsbeano said:


> MrsPear said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> mrsbeano said:
> 
> 
> Do you know yesterday I could have written this myself. I feel so ashamed. I really love Joni, but I was trying to explain to OH, a lot of the time I don't actually enjoy being with her. I really think it's tiredness that does it. I feel like such an awful person inside because I don't think it's normal to feel this way. I think we may both be a bit depressed. I can't tell you what a relief it is to know that I am not alone though.
> 
> Yesterday she cried for over an hour when I was trying to get her to take her first nap, so I ended up just putting her on the playmat and going on the computer to calm down. She finally had a nap of less than 30 minutes and then was still crying afterwards. I wanted to get ready to go to the library so I had to just put her down crying whilst I got dressed etc. Then we caught the bus, and she slept for about 20 minutes. So she was still knackered and we didn't have any fun at the library. She slept about the same on the way home, was completely overtired at home and we spent about 1.5 hours rocking, singing, doing anything to get her to sleep and she had about 15 minutes in all that time. Finally she went to bed (what a relief) and since 1:30 she's been up at least once an hour if not several times.
> 
> So all in all, I feel like my days are a real battle to get her to nap, dealing with the aftermath of not having a nap, and dreading nighttime when I won't get any sleep.
> 
> I'm sorry to be on such a downer. I just feel so sad todya. Big hugs Mrsbeano, it truly isn't just you :hugs:
> 
> Thank you for responding. Feeling pretty lonely here and as you say, its nice to feel as though there's someone else there who understands, although I am also sorry that you're having a rough time of it.
> 
> I *KNOW* its the sleep deprivation and its a really vicious circle. Quinn has had 2 separate weeks where he has STTN. By the end of the second time around, I managed to relax enough and also STTN. The next night he woke up again and the previous nights I was still up waiting for him.
> 
> Just feeling sorry for myself. I need to snap out of it. I've told my husband that he needs to be home from work ASAP at the moment and I'm going to make an effort to go out on my own before I lose the plot completely.
> 
> I am giving up on trying to get out and about during the day with Quinn though. It is too stressful to try and get him to nap outside of his cot and I've had enough of being the only person with the screaming baby in the pram. Yesterday I cried in Boots ffs!
> 
> Never, ever, ever again. Ever.Click to expand...
> 
> Haha parallel lives, I cried on the bus :hugs:
> 
> It does help going out and about- I don't actually care what other people think of Joni crying but I just wish that I could enjoy my time being out with her instead of just desperately trying to stop her crying xxClick to expand...


----------



## Noelle610

MrsBeano, I know how you feel. Don't be too hard on yourself for not enjoying motherhood right now. Not everyone enjoys having a baby and I think that feeling is intensified by lack of sleep. My grandmother had 11 children (yes, you read that right) and she always claimed not to like the baby stage. But she LOVED kids. It feels never-ending at this time, but Quinn won't be a baby forever.

I love my "me" time. I often feel guilty about it. My moms group has a facebook page and many of the moms are constantly posting about how much they miss their babies when they are at daycare. Well, I'll be the first to admit that I often don't miss Charlotte. I often enjoy having someone else do the stressful things, like feed her (reflux) and get her to nap. Yesterday I took a day off of work and I still sent Charlotte to daycare. I needed a day to nap, watch bad TV, clean my house and put up our Chrimstmas tree. 

It gets better. I know it does, because I choose to believe what the other moms on this board tell me :) Hang in there, mama.


----------



## Noelle610

So Charlotte slept straight through the night. I put her down at 6:30pm. She was extremely snotty and her tummy hurt from being constipated. My DH is away for work and I go to bed super early, so I gave her a dream feed at like 8pm and she only took a couple ounces. I thought for sure we were in for a tough night.

BUT, we weren't! Of course I woke up multiple times and checked on her, concerned she was ill since she hadn't felt well. She was just sleeping away. The best part was when I went to check on her at 5am and I decided to get up for the day for work. She lifted her head, looked at me, and put it right back down. I was very proud of her for settling so well!

I feel like I'm jinxing this good sleep by writing about it and next week we'll be back to hourly wakings. Oh well, guess it does me no good to think that way. It just feels too good to be true and I tend to be very superstisious :)


----------



## mrsbeano

Wow Charlotte! She seems to have 'got it' Hopefully you can start to relax and sleep normally too. 

It is something to think actually. I don't have to enjoy the baby stage. Especially when you have a sleep depriving kind of baby. DH can just think I'm a monster. Everyone says that having kids is the best thing ever but maybe it'll just take a couple of years to get to that point. :shrug:


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## MrsPear

Awww Noelle that's brill!! You will adapt to her sleeping patterns I am sure. I think the reflux has had a lot to answer for, poor Charlotte couldn't sleep before even though she clearly knows how. Your LO is a good month older than mine so I have hope that Joni will follow at some point! xx


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## Noelle610

If Charlotte can do it, I'm pretty sure any baby can haha.


----------



## jessicatunnel

Alright girls. In terms of sleep, last night was our best night EVER. She missed her last nap of the day, so had been up for four hours when she went to bed. She went to bed at six. When we went to bed at 9, I thought it was strange she hadn't woken yet, so I checked on her and she was still asleep, but I hit her dresser walking out, and it made her wake up so I fed her and she went right back to sleep.

Fast forward 6 hours (3am), I wake up and think WOW, why hasn't Lilly waken up yet??
I glanced over at the monitor and saw it was UNPLUGGED. I plugged it in, and about five minutes later Lilly started screaming, turns out her arm was stuck through the crib bars. I fed her, cuddled her, and put her back down. Then she slept until 8am, waking several times but no crying and she settled herself back to sleep. 

I know she woke between 9 and 3 when the monitor was unplugged, and it breaks my heart knowing she was probably crying for me and I wasn't there. :/ I basically did unintentional CIO. 

She's fine and happy today though. 

I gotta say, even though I feel awful about last night, it was nice getting a whole six hour stretch of sleep, then getting another five hour stretch after feeding her.


----------



## Noelle610

jessicatunnel said:


> Alright girls. In terms of sleep, last night was our best night EVER. She missed her last nap of the day, so had been up for four hours when she went to bed. She went to bed at six. When we went to bed at 9, I thought it was strange she hadn't woken yet, so I checked on her and she was still asleep, but I hit her dresser walking out, and it made her wake up so I fed her and she went right back to sleep.
> 
> Fast forward 6 hours (3am), I wake up and think WOW, why hasn't Lilly waken up yet??
> I glanced over at the monitor and saw it was UNPLUGGED. I plugged it in, and about five minutes later Lilly started screaming, turns out her arm was stuck through the crib bars. I fed her, cuddled her, and put her back down. Then she slept until 8am, waking several times but no crying and she settled herself back to sleep.
> 
> I know she woke between 9 and 3 when the monitor was unplugged, and it breaks my heart knowing she was probably crying for me and I wasn't there. :/ I basically did unintentional CIO.
> 
> She's fine and happy today though.
> 
> I gotta say, even though I feel awful about last night, it was nice getting a whole six hour stretch of sleep, then getting another five hour stretch after feeding her.

Jessica, how close is your room to Lilly's? I don't think you necessarily did CIO - I think she may just be settling after a few minutes of fussing. I'll admit, I no longer use our monitor. I find we both sleep better with it off. Charlotte's a loud sleeper and I would often mistake her transitioning through sleep cycles as her "waking" and unintentionally go to "help her". If she needs me, I can hear her. Our rooms are right accross the hall from each other.

Glad you got some rest!


----------



## katrinalorien

Pear + bean - I have definitely thought about all of this. Sometimes I wonder if Lily will be an only child, despite my aversion to only having one. DH in fact said last night "you want to go through THIS again?" I hate that its put a strain on my relationship, taken away everything I was excited about, and generally soured the experience. But I know it will get better (at least I'm choosing to believe that) and it is getting better, at least for the moment. 

Haven't gone through teething though...

Noelle - wow your nights are getting better! I'm so glad for you!

jessica - try not to feel bad - she's happy this morning, so she probably doesn't remember much of it. When I wake up in the middle of the night (at least before I had a kid...) and go back to sleep sometimes I can't remember it. I'm glad you got some sleep

Our sleep last night was strange again. She went down at 7:20ish, then up at 10:30 to eat. (It had been three hours so I was going by my 3 hr rule). Then she got up at 1:00, and it had only been 2 1/2 hours, so I tried to resettle her without eating. She did eventually go to sleep (and really it took only about 15 min tops), and then woke up at 3:30. Well it had definitely been a while since her last feed then (5 1/2 hrs!) So I definitely fed her at that point. She was HUNGRY too let me tell you. Then she woke up at about 4:50 ... or something.. I don't really remember because I looked at the clock, got up to switch her diaper, but before I had her diaper ready she was asleep again. Then up for the day at 7:10 ish.. so now its 8:45 and she's taking her first nap. 

All in all, a great night.


----------



## jessicatunnel

You know I've been thinking and I think you may be right. Her room is across the hall from ours, about six feet between us. And if I'm upstairs during her nap and don't have the monitor I always hear her when she wakes up or cries. Surely I would have heard her if she cried last night, even without the monitor. 

Maybe I have been going to her at night when its not needed.


----------



## Shadowy Lady

Bananaz - OMG I just read your update! So if the ex is MIA he definitely has no leg to stand on. You can now have a big sigh of relief :) and remember we are all here for you 

Mrsbeano - I totally can related! My baby is pretty easygoing during the day and used to sleep well BUT once she got sick and started teething, things went south and her sleep got terrible. While I was adjusting to her more frequent wakings, I developed insomnia. I would go to bed but lay awake until she would wake up, and even after she went down I still couldn't sleep. I went through weeks of getting 1-2 hours of sleep every 24 hours. I was a mess, crying like 6 times a day and not getting outta the house. I finally went to the doctor and he told me to start taking Melatonin which I'm still taking though my LO's sleep has improved. It took a few days for Melatonin to really work but now it's doing its magic :D

Noelle - OMG sweetie I'm so happy for you :) Remember when you opened this thread feeling desperate for some sleep? Does that feel like a long time ago now? Go Charlotte!

So last night my mom was here to keep my company while DH is outta town. Sofia went to bed at 7:45 pm with no soother and no fuss and my mom and I slept at around 10 pm. Sofia woke up at 2:45 am for feed. I fed her and then went downstairs to sleep some more (I always do this in the middle of night coz I'm terrified of not falling back asleep in my own bed, ughhh). But after 20 mins I heard crying so I came back up. Apparently Sofia was gassy so my mom had picked her up to help her. I was all pissed off coz I was training her not to need PU or soother but I had forgotten to tell my mom.

So I had to put her down again and let her fuss for like 3 mins. Then I went in, reassured her and left again. I had to do this for a good hour until she slept (I prob went in like 10 times). During this time she was actually asleep just fussing . I guess she had thought it was morning time coz my mom had picked her up, lol! So finally she slept at 4:00 am and stayed down till around 7:45 am when she woke up for the day.

I feel bad that I had got annoyed at my mom coz she was just trying to help :( I apologized this morning and made her a big breakfast. She apologized too coz she feels she made Sofia more awake. I do hope that things go back to normal tonight...

I wrote an essay lol! Hope you guys all had a great night :)


----------



## Noelle610

jessicatunnel said:


> You know I've been thinking and I think you may be right. Her room is across the hall from ours, about six feet between us. And if I'm upstairs during her nap and don't have the monitor I always hear her when she wakes up or cries. Surely I would have heard her if she cried last night, even without the monitor.
> 
> Maybe I have been going to her at night when its not needed.

Your setup sounds just like ours. Try it without the monitor for a night. I bet she suprises you :) Although you may not sleep much be worried at first!

We got breathable bumpers for Charlotte's crib. We too had that "stuck in the bars" issue, she rolls everywhere. They really helped!


----------



## jessicatunnel

Noelle610 said:


> jessicatunnel said:
> 
> 
> You know I've been thinking and I think you may be right. Her room is across the hall from ours, about six feet between us. And if I'm upstairs during her nap and don't have the monitor I always hear her when she wakes up or cries. Surely I would have heard her if she cried last night, even without the monitor.
> 
> Maybe I have been going to her at night when its not needed.
> 
> Your setup sounds just like ours. Try it without the monitor for a night. I bet she suprises you :) Although you may not sleep much be worried at first!
> 
> We got breathable bumpers for Charlotte's crib. We too had that "stuck in the bars" issue, she rolls everywhere. They really helped!Click to expand...

Thanks guys for your encouraging words. :D

I think I'm going to!
I've been looking into the breathable bumpers. This is only the first time this has happened, but I don't want it happening again! She was so scared. :(


----------



## Noelle610

Shadowy Lady said:


> Noelle - OMG sweetie I'm so happy for you :) Remember when you opened this thread feeling desperate for some sleep? Does that feel like a long time ago now? Go Charlotte!

Thanks Shadowy Lady! It does feel strange to have this experience after starting this thread. Let's just hope it lasts... I don't feel like I can breathe a sigh of relief yet :)


----------



## Noelle610

jessicatunnel said:


> Noelle610 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jessicatunnel said:
> 
> 
> You know I've been thinking and I think you may be right. Her room is across the hall from ours, about six feet between us. And if I'm upstairs during her nap and don't have the monitor I always hear her when she wakes up or cries. Surely I would have heard her if she cried last night, even without the monitor.
> 
> Maybe I have been going to her at night when its not needed.
> 
> Your setup sounds just like ours. Try it without the monitor for a night. I bet she suprises you :) Although you may not sleep much be worried at first!
> 
> We got breathable bumpers for Charlotte's crib. We too had that "stuck in the bars" issue, she rolls everywhere. They really helped!Click to expand...
> 
> Thanks guys for your encouraging words. :D
> 
> I think I'm going to!
> I've been looking into the breathable bumpers. This is only the first time this has happened, but I don't want it happening again! She was so scared. :(Click to expand...

I know, it's so sad! It also disrupts everyone's sleep, so no fun.


----------



## katrinalorien

Noelle610 said:


> Shadowy Lady said:
> 
> 
> Noelle - OMG sweetie I'm so happy for you :) Remember when you opened this thread feeling desperate for some sleep? Does that feel like a long time ago now? Go Charlotte!
> 
> Thanks Shadowy Lady! It does feel strange to have this experience after starting this thread. Let's just hope it lasts... I don't feel like I can breathe a sigh of relief yet :)Click to expand...

Hah yeah - I agree totally with this sentiment. Its gotten better in the past and then gotten worse... so we will see..


----------



## Noelle610

katrinalorien said:


> Noelle610 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shadowy Lady said:
> 
> 
> Noelle - OMG sweetie I'm so happy for you :) Remember when you opened this thread feeling desperate for some sleep? Does that feel like a long time ago now? Go Charlotte!
> 
> Thanks Shadowy Lady! It does feel strange to have this experience after starting this thread. Let's just hope it lasts... I don't feel like I can breathe a sigh of relief yet :)Click to expand...
> 
> Hah yeah - I agree totally with this sentiment. Its gotten better in the past and then gotten worse... so we will see..Click to expand...

Same for us!


----------



## bananaz

*Noelle* - That's AMAZING! Of course I hope it continues forever or at least long enough for you to catch up on some sleep.

*jessica* - So glad you had a good night! I agree about the monitor, I doubt there's any need if she's so close by. You will hear her when she needs you, and you won't be bothered by all the normal little squawks during the night.

*Shadowy Lady* - Sorry you guys had a rough night last night. Hopefully it was just a blip on the radar, so to speak.

*katrina* - Don't you hate it when you set a minimum time limit rule and then they wake up right before the limit? Urgh. Sounds like you handled it well though!


Yesterday was pretty fantastic. She took an almost 2-hour nap while my dad was watching her in the morning and then an almost 2.5-hour nap with me in the afternoon! I don't think she's taken such a long nap since she was a newborn. 

She ended up going to bed at 7:45, which was way later than planned, and she popped awake at 9:30 but only fussed for 10 minutes before resettling herself. Then she didn't wake again until 3am! I waited for a bit and it looked like she was going to go back to sleep on her own but then she woke again and actually started crying so I went in and nursed her for 4 minutes. 

Then she got up at 5:15 and I decided to try bringing her into bed with me to get her to sleep longer. Well predictably that backfired and she ended up spending 45 minutes nursing, rolling around and making motorboat noises :dohh: She was clearly tired though so at 6 I brought her back to her crib, which really pissed her off but after 5 minutes she fell asleep and slept until 8:15! So all in all it was a pretty good night.


----------



## katrinalorien

Shadowy - I missed your post sorry!! I bet the change in circumstances really made a difference to her. Babies really do well on routines (at least mine does!) so I think it will probably just be a blip!! Good luck with tonight...


My mom is coming home from Europe tonight, so Lily will be alone with DH when I pick her up. I've spent time preparing bottles (she is expecting to be back right around the 3 hr mark from when Lily seems to get to sleep). 

On Thursday my mom wants to go travelling to a different small town that we used to live in. She's really excited and I really don't know what to do. How should I handle naps that day? Its going to be a day trip, and we will spend the evening looking at christmas lights. I'm thinking maybe we can stop the car when we get there and I can let her nap in the back? She does not nap well in her carseat or in the carrier anymore. What would y'all do? I don't have a pack n play but she has a suburban so I'm thinking we could sit in the back with her and lay like a little mattress down and have her sleep in the trunk... (of course with it being a suburban its open-air...)


----------



## Noelle610

katrinalorien said:


> Shadowy - I missed your post sorry!! I bet the change in circumstances really made a difference to her. Babies really do well on routines (at least mine does!) so I think it will probably just be a blip!! Good luck with tonight...
> 
> 
> My mom is coming home from Europe tonight, so Lily will be alone with DH when I pick her up. I've spent time preparing bottles (she is expecting to be back right around the 3 hr mark from when Lily seems to get to sleep).
> 
> On Thursday my mom wants to go travelling to a different small town that we used to live in. She's really excited and I really don't know what to do. How should I handle naps that day? Its going to be a day trip, and we will spend the evening looking at christmas lights. I'm thinking maybe we can stop the car when we get there and I can let her nap in the back? She does not nap well in her carseat or in the carrier anymore. What would y'all do? I don't have a pack n play but she has a suburban so I'm thinking we could sit in the back with her and lay like a little mattress down and have her sleep in the trunk... (of course with it being a suburban its open-air...)

I think the idea of setting up the pack and play is a good idea. I would also drap blankets over the sides so she can't really see where she is (this helps me LO) and try to recreate the envirnoment you have at home, perhaps with white noise (if you use it) and a lovey (if she has one). Maybe even bring a crib sheet from home so it smells familiar. I get so anxious in these situations... I have to live my life, but I feel like it revolves around Charlotte's sleep. I'm so looking forward to the day she is down to one nap!

Will your LO sleep in the carseat if you time your travel to when she usually naps?


----------



## tentoes92

Officially joining this thread. I just spent an hour and a half with my lo attached to my boob in order for him to sleep. EVERYTIME he fell asleep I'd tell myself I'd move him in twenty minutes. Like clock work he woke up each time right before I was going to. Finally he is in his swing almost asleep. How can he wake up every two hours all night and not want to sleep during the day!!! 


... Just kidding he woke up
Before I could ever finish this post. FFS sleeeeeep kid!!!!


----------



## Noelle610

tentoes92 said:


> Officially joining this thread. I just spent an hour and a half with my lo attached to my boob in order for him to sleep. EVERYTIME he fell asleep I'd tell myself I'd move him in twenty minutes. Like clock work he woke up each time right before I was going to. Finally he is in his swing almost asleep. How can he wake up every two hours all night and not want to sleep during the day!!!
> 
> 
> ... Just kidding he woke up
> Before I could ever finish this post. FFS sleeeeeep kid!!!!

:hugs: The first few months are SO HARD. Sleep deprviation sucks regardless of how old your baby is, but when you're recovering from birth, getting used to be a mom and aren't used to not sleep, it's almost unbearable. We understand!


----------



## katrinalorien

Thanks Noelle - I hadn't thought of the blankets idea at all, will definitely bring that. She's honestly never slept in a pack n play before, so I hope things go alright... 

One thing I'm worried about as well is that I won't be able to bring her angelcare monitor with us, and Lily sleeps on her tummy. Guess I will just sit there watching her like I did before the angelcare monitor. (sometimes I even kept my hand on her the ENTIRE nap... hahah)

Tentoes - Hi, sorry that you're here as well. If I understand your ticker correctly is your LO less than a month old? Those first few months are so hard. Are you swaddling, shh'ing, laying her on her side and whatnot? (basically the 5 s's that Dr. Karp recommends?) I tell you that was her ticket when she was a newborn - those five s's gave me some sleep and some space during the day. You're in the very thick of it now, it does get better, and if it doesn't, then you do get used to it at least.


----------



## tentoes92

katrinalorien said:


> Thanks Noelle - I hadn't thought of the blankets idea at all, will definitely bring that. She's honestly never slept in a pack n play before, so I hope things go alright...
> 
> One thing I'm worried about as well is that I won't be able to bring her angelcare monitor with us, and Lily sleeps on her tummy. Guess I will just sit there watching her like I did before the angelcare monitor. (sometimes I even kept my hand on her the ENTIRE nap... hahah)
> 
> Tentoes - Hi, sorry that you're here as well. If I understand your ticker correctly is your LO less than a month old? Those first few months are so hard. Are you swaddling, shh'ing, laying her on her side and whatnot? (basically the 5 s's that Dr. Karp recommends?) I tell you that was her ticket when she was a newborn - those five s's gave me some sleep and some space during the day. You're in the very thick of it now, it does get better, and if it doesn't, then you do get used to it at least.

Yes we swaddle white noise rock and pat his bum. He jut fights sleep sooo hard. It's so frustrating. He woke up at 845 this morning, I tried to get him to nap a little after ten. He didnt fall asleep til 11 30 and slept an hour and I've been trying to him asleep since :( 2 and a half hours now! He's tired but just refuses to sleep. Nights wouldn't be so bad if he would just nap like a 5 week old should


----------



## katrinalorien

Hmm you may be waiting too long to put him down. Lily is over 4 months old and often can only stand 1 1/2 hours awake. Perhaps he is already overtired? 

Life with a newborn is tough!


----------



## polaris

katrinalorien said:


> Hmm you may be waiting too long to put him down. Lily is over 4 months old and often can only stand 1 1/2 hours awake. Perhaps he is already overtired?
> 
> Life with a newborn is tough!

I agree that he could be already over-tired. At that age, Clara could only manage 45 minutes of awake time and occasionally less! I would literally get her up, feed her, change her nappy, and then start putting her back to sleep again.


----------



## tentoes92

I usual try sooner but he will usually start screaming as soon as I rock him so I was hoping maybe he's get more tired, nurse and pass out. But no.


----------



## bananaz

As always, just as things seem to be improving a new issue arises! This afternoon LO was being really difficult to put down for her nap so after trying to nurse/rock her for 20 minutes I finally just lay her down in her crib to see if she would settle herself. 10 minutes later she was still griping intermittently so I went into her room and I noticed she was looking at me over the top of the crib, which was very disconcerting until I realized that she was sitting up in the middle of her crib! So I picked her up and nursed her until she was drowsy, but as soon as I set her in the crib she immediately sat herself up again and started crying :dohh: 

I'm scared what tonight is going to be like...


----------



## jessicatunnel

bananaz said:


> As always, just as things seem to be improving a new issue arises! This afternoon LO was being really difficult to put down for her nap so after trying to nurse/rock her for 20 minutes I finally just lay her down in her crib to see if she would settle herself. 10 minutes later she was still griping intermittently so I went into her room and I noticed she was looking at me over the top of the crib, which was very disconcerting until I realized that she was sitting up in the middle of her crib! So I picked her up and nursed her until she was drowsy, but as soon as I set her in the crib she immediately sat herself up again and started crying :dohh:
> 
> I'm scared what tonight is going to be like...

Oh no! I'm so glad Lilly can't sit herself up yet. This reminds me of when Lilly started rolling, and every time she went into the crib, she would roll over and wake herself up and cry. :/
Thank goodness she doesn't do that anymore. (Oh, and we stopped the swaddle COMPLETELY, and she is doing AWESOME without it. I even threw away our swaddle blankets... Hah)

Lilly's naps have been super weird for the last week or so, and her last one has been around 1, and she will wake up at 2, and I feel that just interferes with her bedtime. (If I put her down at 4, she will wake up at 5 and her bedtime is 6.) 

So the last two days she's been waking up at 2 from her last nap and staying awake until six, four hours! The last 1.5 hours I have to constantly keep her occupied or she gets fussy, but I think it helps her sleep better!

Bananaz, hope tonight isn't as bad as you think it will be, she might just surprise you. :D


----------



## Noelle610

Jessica, Charlotte is sometimes up for a long time between her last nap and bedtime. I try to put her down at 4pm for a nap sometimes and she just won't sleep or she'll sleep for 20 minutes. I think 6 months is a weird age for naps because they're trying to transition from 3 to 2, but aren't quite ready yet. Ideally, I'd like Charlotte's afternoon nap to just be longer. If she could nap from 12:30pm or 1pm to 3pm, we'd be good to go! To be honest, it doesn't seem to affect her night sleep, although I know the "experts" woudl say differently.


----------



## bananaz

We've had the same issue with either too big or too little a gap before bedtime. Today everything would've been timed perfectly except she wouldn't go down for her second nap and now she's crashed in the car an hour and a half before bedtime! :dohh: I agree with Noelle, I think 6mos is a weird transitional age. At this point I'm just trying to go with the flow since my attempts to control everything never work anyway.


----------



## Aimee1003

I am going to join in. My little man sttn from week 7 to week 21. Damn regression and wonder weeks. Then he started waking up at 4 am. Then it went to waking up 4-5 times a night. Worse than when he was a newborn. Finally week 27 he went back down to 1 wake up. Usually at 4:30 or 5:30 am. Better. But then he started fighting naps. Ergh! He will wake up after 20 min...but when his dad keeps him while I work (2-3 days a week he is off) he naps 3 hours for him!!!

Anyway, last night was horrible again. Bed at 7. Woke up at 9:45. Back down at 10:30. Up at 2:45. Down at 3:30. Up at 5:45. Down at 6:45. Up at 7!!! And I had to work today!!!

I just put him down for bedtime and he is fighting it!!!

I feel like a string of yarn that is coming unraveled. I am beyond stressed...


----------



## katrinalorien

Aimee1003 said:


> I am going to join in. My little man sttn from week 7 to week 21. Damn regression and wonder weeks. Then he started waking up at 4 am. Then it went to waking up 4-5 times a night. Worse than when he was a newborn. Finally week 27 he went back down to 1 wake up. Usually at 4:30 or 5:30 am. Better. But then he started fighting naps. Ergh! He will wake up after 20 min...but when his dad keeps him while I work (2-3 days a week he is off) he naps 3 hours for him!!!
> 
> Anyway, last night was horrible again. Bed at 7. Woke up at 9:45. Back down at 10:30. Up at 2:45. Down at 3:30. Up at 5:45. Down at 6:45. Up at 7!!! And I had to work today!!!
> 
> I just put him down for bedtime and he is fighting it!!!
> 
> I feel like a string of yarn that is coming unraveled. I am beyond stressed...

Aimee - I'm so sorry that you have to join this thread. Could your LO be going through a growth spurt, or has he already hit is 6 month one? I hope this phase passes quickly, but it always feels like eternity while you're in it...:hugs:

I see that you're from Texas, I love Texas! I used to live there.


----------



## Shadowy Lady

Katrina - Good luck with the pack n play and different location. I wish I had known Noelle's advice last week when I slept over at my parents with Sofia. It was terrible. I thought babies wouldn't know where they are but I guess they do, lol!

Bananaz - Best of luck tonight! I'm not looking forward to rolling and sitting down milestones for that exact reason. I even tried transitioning Sofia from Woombie to Sleep sac and she hated it so much I had to go back to Woombie :/

Aimee - oh man! See this is what I keep hearing! Just when you think they're sleeping fine they start waking up again. Our neighbour's son is 15 months old and teething and now is waking up every 2 hours like a new born again. Like this cycle never end!

So Sofia took a 2 hour nap between 9 to 11 am. Then two one hour naps in the afternoon. I just did her night routine and put her down to sleep and so far so good. DH is coming back to town at midnight and I really don't wanna hear from Sofia before then, haha! Still hoping that last night's episode was a fluke :/


----------



## Strike

And another crappy night. Chantal's been crying for 3 hrs. It's like every second night is a bust. I am seriously considering leaving her in a church pew and am really starting to resent her. If she's not crying she's cluster feeding so trying to go to bed early doesn't help either. And of course she only does this at night.

On the plus side, I'm on day 2 of the non-dairy diet and already noticed a difference in her poops. It should be interesting to see what the doctor says on Thursday.


----------



## Noelle610

Aimee, I'm sorry to see you here! I remember when our babies were newborns and I was so jealous that yours was STTN :) Why do you think he's waking again frequently, anything going on?

Bananaz, I am so, so curious to know how your night went. I'm hopeful for you... sitting up isn't as uncomfortable as rolling onto your tummy (when you're not used to it), so I'm thinking it might be an easier milestone to work through. I'm dreading when they start crawling if it makes them wakeful.

Shadowy Lady, 2 two hour naps?! That's fabulous. Hope it brings a good night.

Jessica, did you use the monitor last night?

Strike, please don't despair. I promise you what you are experiencing is totally newborn behavior. Trust me, I wanted to leave my baby in a church pew many times... and sometimes still feel that way! Even if she's not a great sleeper as she gets older, they develop personalities and become so much more lovable. Hope you see some success with the elimination diet.

Last night wasn't good for us. Charlotte is really sick with a cold and tummy bug, so I had to break our rules. She refused her bedtime bottle and her dream feed and hadn't eaten since 4:30pm, so I attempted to feed her when she woke at 1am. She refused again and did eat at 3am. Then she woke up on and off for the next 2 hours. I feel like such a failure after our good nights and like all of the hard work will go to waste since she may now want to eat in the middle of the night again. I wasn't really sure what to do though.. I don't feel comfortable not feeding her for so long and I think sick babies need cuddles.


----------



## stephj25

Noelle610 said:


> Jessica, Charlotte is sometimes up for a long time between her last nap and bedtime. I try to put her down at 4pm for a nap sometimes and she just won't sleep or she'll sleep for 20 minutes. I think 6 months is a weird age for naps because they're trying to transition from 3 to 2, but aren't quite ready yet. Ideally, I'd like Charlotte's afternoon nap to just be longer. If she could nap from 12:30pm or 1pm to 3pm, we'd be good to go! To be honest, it doesn't seem to affect her night sleep, although I know the "experts" woudl say differently.

I'm having this too with the 4pm at the mo. I put LO down as soon as she does a tired cry and she either cries or sleeps, I never know what she'll do at the time until I put her down. It's very frustrating :wacko:


----------



## stephj25

PS. We both have a cold at the mo so LO was crying every half hour for a few nights with a sore throat so I was a little tired! I think the cold is coming to an end now though because she only woke up twice last night. I can't believe the last few weeks, the 6 months stage is a killer!! I really feel for anyone going through this now x


----------



## anti

We only had 3 wake ups last night. Feel like a brand new person. Really hope it keeps improving coz I've been so worn out these last few weeks. Her day time naps are getting worse though. I put her down at 11 for her first nap, it's now 12:10 and she still isn't asleep... Been awake nearly 4 hours now. Far to long for her but she just won't go to sleep!!!


----------



## Noelle610

That's great Steph! Was just saying to a mom friend, it's always something, isn't it?

Anti, glad to hear things are looking up for you. Sorry to hear the nap isn't coming... she'll sleep eventually, she has to!


----------



## bananaz

*Noelle* - So sorry to hear Charlotte is sick :( I guess you just have to do what you have to do to get through it and then deal with the sleep issue afterwards. How frustrating that that would happen right when she's starting to sleep through, ugh!

*anti* - I'm glad you had a good night. I hope she naps soon!


Last night was actually one of the best my LO's had in a long time, despite her really late car nap. She went down at 7:20pm and didn't wake until 2:40am, when I nursed her for 3 minutes (I'm hoping to eliminate that feeding altogether tonight). She squawked loudly maybe three times before then but when I turned on the monitor she was asleep so I'm not counting those. Anyway, after that feeding she was down until 4:45 when I fed her again, and then she slept until getting up for the day at 6am. 

Thankfully she seems to have forgotten about the sitting thing for the moment, which she often does when she's learning a new skill. I'm sure it's only a matter of time before she's doing it more regularly and it becomes an issue, but I'm hoping that since she's known how to get down from sitting for several weeks it won't take too long for her to figure out that that's what she needs to do to go back to sleep. Either that or she'll learn how to fall asleep sitting up :haha:


----------



## Shadowy Lady

Noelle - It's just the cold hun don't worry it will pass. Sofia has had two cold already and she's only 3 months. I'll tell that each time her sleep became a mess. Ended up barely eating during the day and wanting to be up and cry at night. During her second cold I started giving her the soother at night which did help. Once she was better I started taking it away. Does Charlotte take a soother? 

Anti - so glad things are improving for you guys :)

Bananaz - yey! I hope your LO just tries this sitting thing during the day when you wanna take pics and sleep well at night. Isn't that the ideal?

I had dinner with some friends last night and then rushed home and bathed Sofia, fed her and put her to bed at exactly 7:45 pm. She proceeded to sleep till 3:30 am!!!! I did wake up twice before she woke though: once when my DH got home and then again coz I rolled over my messed up wrist :/ Once I fed her at 3:30 am, she slept again till 6:30 am which is when my DH went to change her and whatnot coz he thought it was 7:30, lol! So I ended up putting Sofia in bed with me and we took a nap till 8:30 am :D

Really hoping this keeps improving. My pedi seems to think that Sofia is a naturally good sleeper but then again all babies go through rough periods when they have a cold, are teething,... She's been napping in her swing for an hour now and I'm hoping she'll stay down for another so I can get some errands done around the house.


----------



## jessicatunnel

Noelle, so sorry you had a bad night after so many good ones. Hope little charlotte feels better soon.

Bananaz, so glad you had a better night. I often give Lilly a few sips of milk if she's being particularly difficult. Once I take the bottle away, she does one cry/yell, grabs her blanket, rolls over and goes to sleep.

I didn't use the monitor last night. I left both our doors open though. She went to bed at six, after once again being up for four hours, woke at 7, 8, 10, and 11, all to be resettled. I went to bed at 11pm and she didn't wake until 4am. I fed her, she only took 2 or 3 oz, and she went back to bed until 630. When I went in to feed her at 630 she was wide awake and playing so I thought for sure she was up for the day. I fed her her whole six ounces and to my surprise she went back to sleep until 9am. :happydance: 

All in all it wasn't a bad night at all. I just need to figure out how to get her to stop waking so frequently between the time she goes to bed and the time I go to bed. Anyone have any ideas?


----------



## Noelle610

Thanks ladies! Shadowy Lady, Charlotte used to take a soother but refuses it now. Good and bad I suppose!

Jessica, I wonder why she wakes so frequently at the beginning of the night... I have no ideas! Any hunches yourself?


----------



## jessicatunnel

I have no clue. :( 
If I could figure out why I think we would be down to only two wakings the entire night.


----------



## katrinalorien

ugh I wrote an update but it deleted. Oh well.

Last night wasn't good for us, but there were several factors involved. Things are still going in the right direction. I just wish I could have several nights in a row that were "normal" and not crazy... as in from outside factors, like having to go pick people up from the airport or whatever...

jessica - hmm that's strange. Maybe she is still used to you coming to her in the early night? 

anti - glad your night was better! Its sad to see new people in this thread but I'm glad we can all support each other

bananaz - so glad you had a good night!!

Shadowy - wow a good night for you! What happened to your wrist? I think I injured my shoulder when I was doing PU/PD with Lily one night!!

Noelle - ugh it stinks that right when you feel like you are starting to get things under control you get something new right? Well it sounds like you handled it well, and as long as Charlotte can self-soothe at the end of your cold I bet you will bounce back.

Steph - Another new face! Sorry to hear your LO isn't sleeping well, but I'm glad you got a good night last night.


----------



## Noelle610

jessicatunnel said:


> I have no clue. :(
> If I could figure out why I think we would be down to only two wakings the entire night.

Does she cry out when she wakes? Have you ever given her 5 minutes or so to see if she'd go back to sleep?


----------



## bananaz

jessicatunnel said:


> Bananaz, so glad you had a better night. I often give Lilly a few sips of milk if she's being particularly difficult. Once I take the bottle away, she does one cry/yell, grabs her blanket, rolls over and goes to sleep.

Elsie does the exact same thing with nursing. It's so strange. I know the issue couldn't really have been hunger since she barely gets anything to eat, and it's not that she wants to suck to sleep either because she's still awake and protesting when I put her down. But somehow 3 minutes on the boob usually accomplishes what an hour of rocking and shushing couldn't. Maybe it's just a comfort thing?




jessicatunnel said:


> I didn't use the monitor last night. I left both our doors open though. She went to bed at six, after once again being up for four hours, woke at 7, 8, 10, and 11, all to be resettled. I went to bed at 11pm and she didn't wake until 4am. I fed her, she only took 2 or 3 oz, and she went back to bed until 630. When I went in to feed her at 630 she was wide awake and playing so I thought for sure she was up for the day. I fed her her whole six ounces and to my surprise she went back to sleep until 9am. :happydance:
> 
> All in all it wasn't a bad night at all. I just need to figure out how to get her to stop waking so frequently between the time she goes to bed and the time I go to bed. Anyone have any ideas?


Sounds like you're going to have a great sleeper once you sort out all those early night wakings! How do you resettle her usually? Have you tried waiting for a few minutes?


----------



## stephj25

katrinalorien said:


> ugh I wrote an update but it deleted. Oh well.
> 
> Last night wasn't good for us, but there were several factors involved. Things are still going in the right direction. I just wish I could have several nights in a row that were "normal" and not crazy... as in from outside factors, like having to go pick people up from the airport or whatever...
> 
> jessica - hmm that's strange. Maybe she is still used to you coming to her in the early night?
> 
> anti - glad your night was better! Its sad to see new people in this thread but I'm glad we can all support each other
> 
> bananaz - so glad you had a good night!!
> 
> Shadowy - wow a good night for you! What happened to your wrist? I think I injured my shoulder when I was doing PU/PD with Lily one night!!
> 
> Noelle - ugh it stinks that right when you feel like you are starting to get things under control you get something new right? Well it sounds like you handled it well, and as long as Charlotte can self-soothe at the end of your cold I bet you will bounce back.
> 
> Steph - Another new face! Sorry to hear your LO isn't sleeping well, but I'm glad you got a good night last night.

hello Katrina!! not new, just can't keep up!! :haha: I have been in an out of this thread since the start :flower:


----------



## katrinalorien

HAH that's just like me to forget someone - sorry steph! :( Can I blame sleep deprivation? :haha:


----------



## bananaz

Here's a question - how many of you put your LOs down with loveys/"transitional objects"?

I was hesitant at first because the SIDS guidelines say to leave the crib bare until baby is a year old, but after reading several sleep books that recommended introducing a lovey (including Ferber, interestingly enough) I decided to start giving LO a stuffed frog at bedtime and I think it's made a big difference for her. At first she just kind of ignored it or flung it around but now when she wakes she feels around for it and then cuddles it or sucks on the tag while she's going to sleep. I still don't think I would've given it to her before 6 months because I'm neurotic and the SIDS thing would've worried me too much, but at this point she's totally mobile and the frog is small and firm enough that it would be really uncomfortable for her to choose to smush her face on it.


----------



## mrsbeano

Jessica, I would put her down for a short nap at 4pm - even go for a 30 minute walk or something so she'll doze and that should see her through until bedtime without being overtired. It may be the case that she's ready for a slightly later bedtime? I would imagine that's why she's waking up lots in the early evening. 

I would also give her 5 minutes before going in. Go and do a job and watch the clock so it doesn't sound like an hour!!

Noelle - I'm sure it'll pass. Colds suck. Not sure if you keep her cot elevated for the reflux but it can help with a cold too. x


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## Noelle610

Bananaz, I started using a small "blankie" for Charlotte around 5 months. I think it helps. Weissbluth recommends one around this time too. I think the risk of SIDS after a baby can really move - like roll around - is very low. It doesn't worry me at all.

MrsBeano, I hadn't thought of a later bedtime (with a 4pm) nap for Jessica's Lilly. Sounds like you might be on to something! Jessica, you mentioned that Lilly slept really well after going out a bit late, right?


----------



## bananaz

Ah, I wanted to use a little blankie but one of Elsie's favorite games is pulling blankets over her face and then freaking out and hyperventilating underneath them :dohh: She's a weirdo...


----------



## katrinalorien

bananaz said:


> Ah, I wanted to use a little blankie but one of Elsie's favorite games is pulling blankets over her face and then freaking out and hyperventilating underneath them :dohh: She's a weirdo...

babies are funny in scary ways sometimes!


----------



## Noelle610

katrinalorien said:


> bananaz said:
> 
> 
> Ah, I wanted to use a little blankie but one of Elsie's favorite games is pulling blankets over her face and then freaking out and hyperventilating underneath them :dohh: She's a weirdo...
> 
> babies are funny in scary ways sometimes!Click to expand...

I think I am both amused and terrified :haha:


----------



## jessicatunnel

MrsBeano, and Noelle, yeah thats right. I'll try it tonight and see what happens!

Bananaz, we also have a small minky baby blanket for Lilly. She pulls it up to her face and rubs it on her cheek to get to sleep. It's so cute.


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## stephj25

I put Olivia to bed with her Nunuk (it's a bear attached to a little blanket). She has been going to sleep while cuddling it since she moved to her own room at 2 months! I would probably be shot down by the HV if she knew :dohh:


----------



## katrinalorien

uuugh I found out we are going to have to take my car tomorrow. My car has no room for the pack n play in the back, so those plans are wasted. What am I going to do? Lily is such a picky sleeper, and now I've gotten her used to sleeping in her crib...


----------



## Noelle610

katrinalorien said:


> uuugh I found out we are going to have to take my car tomorrow. My car has no room for the pack n play in the back, so those plans are wasted. What am I going to do? Lily is such a picky sleeper, and now I've gotten her used to sleeping in her crib...

Will she nap in the car seat while you drive there? Perhaps you could time your commute with her naps. Not ideal, but might work in a pinch.

Also, could you compromise and make the trip a half day so she gets some decent sleep either in the morning or afternoon?

I certainly can't wait until we don't have to obsess about these things!


----------



## Noelle610

Things are not good here ladies! Charlotte is very sick. She has a cold, is vomitting and may have an ear infection (we're going to the pediatrician today). We were up every two hours. I also think I'm getting sick. My body just aches and I know I need SLEEP.

When I was trying to get back to sleep last night I thought of you ladies and then subsequently had a dream that we all met up! How much fun would that be?! I'd love to get to know some of you in real life and commiserate about not sleeping. The women in my moms group are lovely ladies, but they don't get it. Example -- one baby's 4 month sleep "regression" was going from one night waking to two. UGH....

I think you will all laugh about this. When I called the doctor yesterday, he said they wanted to see Charlotte is we had a second bad night. He classified this as "waking more than 2 times". I wasn't sure quite what to say, as she'd only been STTN for a couple nights and this would have previously been a very good night or us LOL!


----------



## stephj25

Noelle610 said:


> Things are not good here ladies! Charlotte is very sick. She has a cold, is vomitting and may have an ear infection (we're going to the pediatrician today). We were up every two hours. I also think I'm getting sick. My body just aches and I know I need SLEEP.
> 
> When I was trying to get back to sleep last night I thought of you ladies and then subsequently had a dream that we all met up! How much fun would that be?! I'd love to get to know some of you in real life and commiserate about not sleeping. The women in my moms group are lovely ladies, but they don't get it. Example -- one baby's 4 month sleep "regression" was going from one night waking to two. UGH....
> 
> I think you will all laugh about this. When I called the doctor yesterday, he said they wanted to see Charlotte is we had a second bad night. He classified this as "waking more than 2 times". I wasn't sure quite what to say, as she'd only been STTN for a couple nights and this would have previously been a very good night or us LOL!

Aaaw I hope that Charlotte gets better soon!!

If my doc said that to be, I would have been there every day for the last 6 weeks!! Erm...yeah, don't really know what else to say about that!! :dohh:

Meeting up is a really good idea, but where is everyone from?..I know what we need. A teleporter!! :haha:


----------



## Noelle610

stephj25 said:


> Meeting up is a really good idea, but where is everyone from?..I know what we need. A teleporter!! :haha:

I think we're all accross the country unfortunately! I'm in Baltimore, east coast USA, but am originally from upstate New York :)


----------



## stephj25

Noelle610 said:


> stephj25 said:
> 
> 
> Meeting up is a really good idea, but where is everyone from?..I know what we need. A teleporter!! :haha:
> 
> I think we're all accross the country unfortunately! I'm in Baltimore, east coast USA, but am originally from upstate New York :)Click to expand...

I'm from Nottingham, England!!! very far away!


----------



## katrinalorien

Noelle610 said:


> Things are not good here ladies! Charlotte is very sick. She has a cold, is vomitting and may have an ear infection (we're going to the pediatrician today). We were up every two hours. I also think I'm getting sick. My body just aches and I know I need SLEEP.
> 
> When I was trying to get back to sleep last night I thought of you ladies and then subsequently had a dream that we all met up! How much fun would that be?! I'd love to get to know some of you in real life and commiserate about not sleeping. The women in my moms group are lovely ladies, but they don't get it. Example -- one baby's 4 month sleep "regression" was going from one night waking to two. UGH....
> 
> I think you will all laugh about this. When I called the doctor yesterday, he said they wanted to see Charlotte is we had a second bad night. He classified this as "waking more than 2 times". I wasn't sure quite what to say, as she'd only been STTN for a couple nights and this would have previously been a very good night or us LOL!

Oh no poor Charlotte!! That's just so sad!

I do wish we could all meet - it would be so nice to talk to someone else who gets it.

HAH you should tell your doctor you should have met ages ago.. :D :D


Oh my goodness..... oh my goodness!! Lily slept from 10:30 to...

Drum roll please...

5:00 am!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Has this ever happened before? NO!! Did I get that many hours of continuous sleep? NO! But it DID happen, so it means it CAN happen... oh my goodness, I may be getting hope back. I seriously, seriously, seriously though she would NEVER sleep through until she was 3-4 years old. Honestly I had NO hope. 

I was so excited that I woke up at 4:30 and could not go back to bed. I got her diaper ready and at 5:00 when I could tell she was gonna wake up I actually even changed her diaper in the dark! Then I fed her with only the light of the christmas tree :cloud9: Then I put a very sleepy baby back in bed. 

I know this is a blip. It sucks that I am going out of town tomorrow. I know this won't be the reality, that this is a blip and tomorrow we will be back to 3-4 hours in between. But you know what? I have gotten the most sleep I have gotten since before she was born. Did I tell you guys I was hallucinating in her second month of life? Oh my goodness!!

Sorry but I'm just so happy...


----------



## Noelle610

Katrina, that is fabulous!!!!!!!!!!!!! It might be the start of a pattern :)


----------



## mrsbeano

katrinalorien said:


> Noelle610 said:
> 
> 
> Things are not good here ladies! Charlotte is very sick. She has a cold, is vomitting and may have an ear infection (we're going to the pediatrician today). We were up every two hours. I also think I'm getting sick. My body just aches and I know I need SLEEP.
> 
> When I was trying to get back to sleep last night I thought of you ladies and then subsequently had a dream that we all met up! How much fun would that be?! I'd love to get to know some of you in real life and commiserate about not sleeping. The women in my moms group are lovely ladies, but they don't get it. Example -- one baby's 4 month sleep "regression" was going from one night waking to two. UGH....
> 
> I think you will all laugh about this. When I called the doctor yesterday, he said they wanted to see Charlotte is we had a second bad night. He classified this as "waking more than 2 times". I wasn't sure quite what to say, as she'd only been STTN for a couple nights and this would have previously been a very good night or us LOL!
> 
> Oh no poor Charlotte!! That's just so sad!
> 
> I do wish we could all meet - it would be so nice to talk to someone else who gets it.
> 
> HAH you should tell your doctor you should have met ages ago.. :D :D
> 
> 
> Oh my goodness..... oh my goodness!! Lily slept from 10:30 to...
> 
> Drum roll please...
> 
> 5:00 am!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Has this ever happened before? NO!! Did I get that many hours of continuous sleep? NO! But it DID happen, so it means it CAN happen... oh my goodness, I may be getting hope back. I seriously, seriously, seriously though she would NEVER sleep through until she was 3-4 years old. Honestly I had NO hope.
> 
> I was so excited that I woke up at 4:30 and could not go back to bed. I got her diaper ready and at 5:00 when I could tell she was gonna wake up I actually even changed her diaper in the dark! Then I fed her with only the light of the christmas tree :cloud9: Then I put a very sleepy baby back in bed.
> 
> I know this is a blip. It sucks that I am going out of town tomorrow. I know this won't be the reality, that this is a blip and tomorrow we will be back to 3-4 hours in between. But you know what? I have gotten the most sleep I have gotten since before she was born. Did I tell you guys I was hallucinating in her second month of life? Oh my goodness!!
> 
> Sorry but I'm just so happy...Click to expand...

That's a great night, well done!! Just goes to show it can be done. Fingers crossed it happens again soon. x


----------



## bananaz

Katrina - that's great!! And it may not be a blip. When my LO started sleeping longer stretches it happened very suddenly. I think sometimes something just "clicks" for them. Anyway, I hope it becomes a nice stable pattern for you, you've earned it!


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## mrsbeano

Oh dear Noelle, sick babies :wacko: Maybe you could get a night in the spare room with ear plugs at the weekend? Ear plugs are the newest discovery in our house. It just means that you can nap on the weekend or truly have a night off without getting woken up by a crying baby - the worst kind of alarm clock. 

Quinn has laryngitis from crying too much. Last night he wanted food at 11.45 which is just plain odd but was a good night on the whole. 

Steph, I'm in Leicester so we're only 30 miles away. Doesn't seem as exciting as across the pond does it?


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## jessicatunnel

For all those who asked if I go to Lilly straight away during her wakings, I don't. I leave her for as long as she fusses then as soon as it turns into a proper cry, I go see what's the matter. (Just reread that, it came out kinda snappy, I promise I'm not being snappy! Haha)

Last night was good. Let's start from her last nap. 
She went down for a nap at 1:15pm, and slept until 4pm. YAY! The last week or so her naps have been suffering. She takes 2 or 3 1 hour naps, and although that may seem normal to other parents, it's not for Lilly. When she takes her longer 2 hr naps, when she wakes she's so happy and independent, not needy or clingy whatsoever. The last week since she's only been taking 45min- an hour naps she's been unusually clingy, and fussy. That's not like Lilly at all, she's not the fussy type whatsoever. It's been doing my head in! After her 2.5 nap last night she went straight back to the old Lilly, happy as can be, playing with her toys. 
I've tried extending her naps but it's useless. She won't stay down. Pretty sure that 2.5hr nap was a one off, but it upsets me so much. It's like I have a completely different baby. :(

Anyway. Sorry for the novel there. She woke at 4pm, daddy got home at 6pm and they played until 7pm. We tried putting her down at 7pm and she wasn't having any of it. Absolutely did not want to go down, she wanted to continue playing with daddy! So 8pm rolled around and she was definitely ready for bed then. 4hours since her last nap. Maybe she's just gotten used to being up that long between her last nap and bedtime?

She woke up 2 times before we went to bed at 11pm. Then she slept from 11pm to 330am. Yay! I did have the monitor on last night, on very low, because I was curious if she was waking up between 11-4 and I just wasn't hearing it and nope, she didn't even stir. This is the... third (?) night in a row she's slept from 11-4. I fed her 5oz at 330, and she slept from 345-745 where she was up for the day. 

I have to say, it's not sleeping through but I am LOVING it right now. I've gotten so much more rest it's unbelievable!


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## Noelle610

MrsBeano, a night with earplugs is definitely in order! Another reflux mom on this forum actually recommended I wear them on the regular! Reflux babies are loud sleepers. I don't do that, but I do use a fan for white noise and I only hear Charlotte if she really needs me, not if she's just stirring. So sorry to hear about your tough night with Quinn. 

Jessica, so glad to hear you're getting that nice long stretch - especially in the middle of the night! Charlotte has always been a very good napper too, despite her difficulty with night sleep. It's interesting, because the "experts" would say our well-rested girls should sleep very well at night. Anyway, I get frustrated with those 45 minute naps too. I know they work for some babies, but Charlotte is happiest when she takes two really long naps. 90 minutes in the morning and 2 hours in the afternoon is ideal for us. I've heard that they more consistantly take these types of naps as they age, so here's hoping.


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## jessicatunnel

Katrina! I'm jumping up and down for you, that is so awesome! I really hope it continues for you!

Noelle, poor Charlotte. :( And poor you! It must have been so rough! I do wish we could all meet up. I don't know one single person, besides DH, that knows what I'm going through. Family lives in Texas, and we live in North Carolina, and every single time we talk on the phone they ask, "Is Lilly sleeping through the night yet?"
Uhm. NO!
And then they continue to say things like, "I remember when so and so would wake at 4am every night. It was so rough."

Try waking up six+ times a night! You don't know what rough is!

Ughhhh, rant over. LOL.

Mrsbeano, so sorry your LO isn't well, hope he feels better soon!


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## katrinalorien

Thank you guys for all the encouragement! Lily was up for the day at 7:40, when I went in her room and found her happily "swimming" around her bed :haha:

I don't even know when she got up this morning! :D

I do really hope it becomes a pattern, but if anything at least things are getting better!

Mrs. Bean - another sick LO! I hope he gets better very soon


----------



## Noelle610

katrinalorien said:


> Thank you guys for all the encouragement! Lily was up for the day at 7:40, when I went in her room and found her happily "swimming" around her bed :haha:
> 
> I don't even know when she got up this morning! :D
> 
> I do really hope it becomes a pattern, but if anything at least things are getting better!
> 
> Mrs. Bean - another sick LO! I hope he gets better very soon

That's awesome. She probably woke up happy because she was so well-rested!


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## mrsbeano

Well done Lilly! I think that you just really benefit from any improvement in their sleep, because as much as it feels as though you can't cope of x number of broken hours sleep, you kinda do. 

I know I have struggled with Quinn waking up but being up for 2.5 hours or so recently and I think its because my body had adjusted to short awake periods at night since he learned when night time was. 

He's not being too bad today, pretty clingy but that's a good excuse to chill out for a day. He also fell asleep on me for the first time in ages and we both had a snooze on the sofa haha.


----------



## katrinalorien

mrsbeano said:


> Steph, I'm in Leicester so we're only 30 miles away. Doesn't seem as exciting as across the pond does it?

Oh believe me - Oklahoma is the epitome of boring :haha:


----------



## Noelle610

katrinalorien said:


> mrsbeano said:
> 
> 
> Steph, I'm in Leicester so we're only 30 miles away. Doesn't seem as exciting as across the pond does it?
> 
> Oh believe me - Oklahoma is the epitome of boring :haha:Click to expand...

I'm in a supposedly "exciting" part of the country and I can tell you... our babies don't sleep either LOL! It's the same old stuff.


----------



## Shadowy Lady

Katrina - yay!!! So happy for you, you deserve the good sleep hun. Hope you see this pattern on a continuous basis :)

so last night wasn't as great. I know it may sound great for some of you but it was worse than usual for us. Sofia went to sleep at 8 pm (i put her down drowsy and she went to sleep on her own) but woke up at 1 am (about 2 hours or so before her usual wakeup time). I fed her and she went down but she was kinda noisy (though asleep) so I didn't get to sleep till 3:00 am. Then again she woke up at 4 am :/ she usually just does one feed per night so I don't know what that was about. I fed her and she proceeded to sleep till 9 am.

So I'm wondering if I shouldn't have fed her at 4 am. Do you guys think this may become an annoying new habit? Of course my DH alarm went off at 6:45 am so I only slept between 4:30 am to then. One of those days I need a lot of coffee...


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## katrinalorien

I think it depends on why she woke up at 4 am. If she woke up because she was hungry, then you should feed her. If she woke up and just wanted help going back to sleep, that's something else entirely.

But honestly at 4 am its hard to judge those things, and hindsight is always 20/20. So I guess my point is that you did it once so it shouldn't be a habit yet! It should be ok.


----------



## Noelle610

Shadowy Lady said:


> Katrina - yay!!! So happy for you, you deserve the good sleep hun. Hope you see this pattern on a continuous basis :)
> 
> so last night wasn't as great. I know it may sound great for some of you but it was worse than usual for us. Sofia went to sleep at 8 pm (i put her down drowsy and she went to sleep on her own) but woke up at 1 am (about 2 hours or so before her usual wakeup time). I fed her and she went down but she was kinda noisy (though asleep) so I didn't get to sleep till 3:00 am. Then again she woke up at 4 am :/ she usually just does one feed per night so I don't know what that was about. I fed her and she proceeded to sleep till 9 am.
> 
> So I'm wondering if I shouldn't have fed her at 4 am. Do you guys think this may become an annoying new habit? Of course my DH alarm went off at 6:45 am so I only slept between 4:30 am to then. One of those days I need a lot of coffee...

I think you could try not feeding her and see what happens. Soothe her in other ways. If she goes back to sleep and sleeps for quite some time, you know she wasn't hungry. If she continues to be fussy or wakes shortly after she goes down, then you know she needs to eat. Feeding at night is confusing, because like sleep it's not always linear. It's not uncommon for a baby who has none or one night feed to suddenly need one or two as they get bigger and need more calories that maybe they aren't quite capable of getting yet during the day. I would say Charlotte went from needing one night feed to two around the 4 month mark. At some points she kept both of these out of habit (IMO), but its hard to know when that turning point was. I'd say probably just around 6 months.


----------



## bananaz

*jessica* - Yay for a good night! I hope it keeps up :thumbup: Elsie has just started taking longer naps over the past few weeks and I'm loving it, but she actually wakes up much grumpier from them than she did from her normal 30-45 minute naps.

Last night wasn't great by recent standards. She didn't want to go to sleep so I wasn't able to get her down until 7:15pm, and then she woke at 8:30, 11:40, 3:40 and 4:30, and then was up for the day at 7am. The good news is that she self-settled for all of the wakings except for the 3:40 one when I went in to feed her, but it took 15-30 minutes of fussing each time. 

I know I shouldn't be complaining since very recently she was up for 60-90 minutes in the middle of the night, but even these shorter wakings are really stressful for me when I'm so exhausted and I'm trying to decide when/if to go in to soothe her. Generally I give her 10 minutes and then if she's actively trying to go to sleep (which I can see on the video monitor) I leave her to it, but if she seems upset or is just flailing around I'll go in. Sometimes, like last night, it seems like it's really difficult for her to get back to sleep and I don't know what to do. She'll toss and turn trying to get comfortable, hold still for a bit, and then start crying again. She does this repeatedly, and I know if I go in I'm just going to distract her and prolong the process, but it still sucks hearing her fuss and not being able to do anything :(


----------



## Noelle610

bananaz said:


> *jessica* - Yay for a good night! I hope it keeps up :thumbup: Elsie has just started taking longer naps over the past few weeks and I'm loving it, but she actually wakes up much grumpier from them than she did from her normal 30-45 minute naps.
> 
> Last night wasn't great by recent standards. She didn't want to go to sleep so I wasn't able to get her down until 7:15pm, and then she woke at 8:30, 11:40, 3:40 and 4:30, and then was up for the day at 7am. The good news is that she self-settled for all of the wakings except for the 3:40 one when I went in to feed her, but it took 15-30 minutes of fussing each time.
> 
> I know I shouldn't be complaining since very recently she was up for 60-90 minutes in the middle of the night, but even these shorter wakings are really stressful for me when I'm so exhausted and I'm trying to decide when/if to go in to soothe her. Generally I give her 10 minutes and then if she's actively trying to go to sleep (which I can see on the video monitor) I leave her to it, but if she seems upset or is just flailing around I'll go in. Sometimes, like last night, it seems like it's really difficult for her to get back to sleep and I don't know what to do. She'll toss and turn trying to get comfortable, hold still for a bit, and then start crying again. She does this repeatedly, and I know if I go in I'm just going to distract her and prolong the process, but it still sucks hearing her fuss and not being able to do anything :(

I totally consider self-settling 3 times a WIN. All that aside, I know it's STILL really hard, because they wake you. Why oh why can't they just settle quietly?! Charlotte often acts in a similar way when she wakes, i.e. trying to get comfortable, etc. I know that they're making progress in terms of sleeping independently, but I wish I could sleep through it :) Sometimes giving them the opportunity to learn, even when you know it will benefit you both in the long run, is harder than just feeding and getting the whole damn thing over with so you can confidently go back to sleep.


----------



## bananaz

Shadowy Lady said:


> so last night wasn't as great. I know it may sound great for some of you but it was worse than usual for us. Sofia went to sleep at 8 pm (i put her down drowsy and she went to sleep on her own) but woke up at 1 am (about 2 hours or so before her usual wakeup time). I fed her and she went down but she was kinda noisy (though asleep) so I didn't get to sleep till 3:00 am. Then again she woke up at 4 am :/ she usually just does one feed per night so I don't know what that was about. I fed her and she proceeded to sleep till 9 am.
> 
> So I'm wondering if I shouldn't have fed her at 4 am. Do you guys think this may become an annoying new habit? Of course my DH alarm went off at 6:45 am so I only slept between 4:30 am to then. One of those days I need a lot of coffee...

As others have said, you might try soothing her without food first and see if that works. I wouldn't worry about creating a habit from one off night, though. I hope tonight she's back to her old routine!


----------



## Shadowy Lady

Thanks ladies, I will try that. I think because I had just barely gotten to sleep (like an hour earlier) I was too confused to try anything but boob, lol! She's napping now again at her usual time (10 am to 12 pm) so hoping tonight we'll be back on schedule. If not, DH is in charge Friday night so I'll catch up on my weekly loss of sleep :D

Her weight gain has been consistent but maybe she's needing more food now. She was born 8.5 lbs and is now 14.5 lbs at 3 months...is there a growth spurt at this time?

Hope you ladies all have a great night tonight. It's so nice to come here and talk about sleep/lack thereof. My friends think I'm weirdly obsessed with sleep. It's probably coz I'm not getting enough of it...


----------



## mrsbeano

There's a huge 3 months growth spurt and then again at 4 months. The one at 4 months people often confuse with the baby needing solids. 

BFing and growth spurts :wacko:


----------



## katrinalorien

bananaz - Don't worry about wanting something better, you're not just wanting it for yourself you're wanting it for your LO. I know even last night Lily did "wake up" once I think between 10:30 and 5:00 but resettled herself within the time limit. Its so hard to let them do that, it literally tears me apart when I lay there. Actually I've taken to getting my pocket diapers out before hand, unstuffed and leaving the stuffing to do so I have something to do while my time limit expires. Her cry has changed too, its more of a screech now when she's in her crib and it just breaks my heart. I can't wait for the day that I can confidently put her in bed and know she's going to get up in the morning with no issues.


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## katrinalorien

mrs bean - I had no idea there was a 4 month growth spurt as well...


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## mrsbeano

katrinalorien said:


> mrs bean - I had no idea there was a 4 month growth spurt as well...

A really big one at 17 weeks. Then I think you get a little respite until 6 months?


----------



## MrsPear

I haven't read all the posts since I was last on, I will do it when Joni is asleep and I've got more time.

Once again I didn't post much this week because I was TOO FRUSTRATED. Joni was up every 20 minutes at worst, 1.5 hours at best...she got up 5 times one night and spent at least an hour sleeping on my chest, and OH declared it "a brilliant night" which shows what the other nights were like!

Anyway, long story short, we have really tried everything, so I said to OH, we need to put her in her own room. Ideally we wouldn't even have put her in her own room at 6 months because we have a really big bedroom and cot etc fits in there no problem, BUT I just wanted to see if she woke any less without us [read: OH] making a racket all night, and...

She only woke three times!! She got up at 6:30 which is early for her, but she is in a better mood than she has been for SO long, she has been up for over an hour and only just starting to look grizzly, normally it is 50 minutes max. I think she's up early because she's more rested than she has been for ages.

I know one night is way too early to celebrate, but I really hope this could help us. :happydance:

I will come back to read everyone else's news xx


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## Noelle610

MrsPear, that is GREAT news. Charlotte sleeps so much better in her own room, too. I think it's easy to misinterpret little sleep noises as awakenings and respond too quickly when our babies are close by. I would often think, "I better go to her now, before she wakes up fully!" and in actuality I think I was waking her up.


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## Noelle610

Our night wasn't terrible. Charlotte is still really sick. We went to the doctor and they told us it was just a virus, so really nothing we can do. They gave us suggestions to help her congestion, but Charlotte likes to be comfy and sleep on her belly, so there's no way I'm going to get her to sleep in a car seat. I never thought I'd type that, since she woke so frequently when learning to roll and getting upset!

Anyway, she was super fussy in the evening, so I put her to bed at 5:15pm. She woke around 7:00pm really cranky, so I tried to feed her and cuddle her. She then slept until 1am and was up for 45 minutes or so. She was just so uncomfortable. She then slept until 6:00am, so not bad at all for a little sick girl. She did fuss a lot and cough in her sleep, so at one point I had to pull out the earplugs! (I can still hear her when she cries with them on).


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## katrinalorien

I agree, very good job Charlotte!

And I think Lily does better in her room, and I KNOW I do better without Lily in my bed. (I actually dream without her next to me)

Lily did a 3 hr, then 4 hour, then 2 1/2 hour stretch, and I am currently trying to let her resettle herself. She's turning herself over, which is part of the problem. She wakes up, tries to roll over, is successful, and then hates her new position (I let her sleep on her tummy. I can't keep going in there and rolling her back over though. So we will see I suppose... Maybe she will like it if she puts herself in that position. 


The urge to practice those skills must be extremely strong.


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## Noelle610

Katrina, doesn't sound like a bad night overall!

The rolling thing is hard. I agree that you can't keep going in and rolling Lily over. I had the same issue with Charlotte and it did pass. She now happily sleeps on her tummy. These developmental milestones are hard. I've heard that sleep is disrupted when they begin learning to crawl and I'm not looking forward to that one!

I do wonder if our poor sleepers are extra sensitive to these things. I mentioned the rolling/sleep disruption to a coworker the other day and she has two kids. She said she never had that problem.


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## katrinalorien

That's a really interesting theory, I'd never thought of that. I think Lily just has a huge drive to practice those skills, and if I don't give her enough tummy time then she has to practice them in her crib.

Tomorrow is my birthday! I just noticed :haha: Unfortunately, it doesn't mean LO will give me the night off. I kinda told my DH that my birthday was a "non-event" this year.


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## Shadowy Lady

Mrs Pear - glad your night was improved. I do agree that babies seem to sleep better in their own room.

Noelle - I think Charlotte is doing brilliantly considering she's sick. Hope she feels better soon...

I feel that for us, we take a step forward and then two backward. Sofia took a nap that was kinda late for her (between 6:30 to 7 pm) but woke up on her own. We did her usual night time routine starting at 7:30 pm and I put her to bed at 8 pm even though she was awake and playful. Well, she did not want to sleep. She was fussy so I let her fuss and went in every few minutes to get her to sleep. Well, after an hour of that, she actually started crying so much that i got upset, picked her up and nursed her.

of course she didn't really eat as she was tanked up. She did fall asleep though so I put her down. Except as soon as I did she started crying hysterically again. I felt like she's gone back to being a newborn as she hadn't done that in months!! I picked her up again and calmed her, waited a good 20 mins and then put her down and she stayed asleep. She then woke up at 1 am crying again but not nursing. I had to repeat the same steps...last time she woke up was 5 am and this time she was hungry. Had her feed and went to sleep no problem.

Why do you guys think she suddenly needed to sleep on me? She's been sleeping in her crib no problem since she was 6 weeks old. She doesn't even nap on me, just in her swing or the couch. I really CANNOT cosleep again. I got no sleep at all those weeks :/ 

Any suggestions are welcome..oh and we tried last week to transition her from Woombie to a sleep bag so she can suck on her hand but she absolutely hated it. So she's sleeping in the Woombie still


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## Noelle610

Happy early birthday Katrina! I think DH should take her for a night so you can sleep :)


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## katrinalorien

Oh I wish! I just can't make that many bottles :(

Also my DH gets really cranky in the night, so really its best if I do it.

Goodness what happened this morning? She woke up at 6:30, I tried to put her down to finish her night sleep but she would NOT do it, so I got her up at 7:00 ish, (she wasn't crying, just laying there doing nothing). Then I tried to put her down for her nap at 8:00 and no dice, she just laid there and didn't do anything. I left the room, no crying or anything but I heard her in there "chatting", and it had been a good 20 min, I go in, she's rolled over and chatting to herself. So I just tried again (its now 8:45) and she did cry a little bit this time (she's obviously overtired!) but I seriously don't know what to do! Maybe I should have left her in the crib when she was just talking to herself and not worried about it, and waited for her to fall asleep...


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## bananaz

*MrsPear* - I'm sorry things have been so rough for you but it sounds like moving LO out of your room is the right move. I moved my girl into her own room at 5 weeks old and we both slept much better after that.

*katrina* - If she's happy and hanging out then I would probably just leave her. Maybe she needs some extra time to fall asleep? Oh, and happy birthday!!


Last night was rough, but I realized right before bedtime that she has a tooth that's just starting to erupt so at least there is a likely reason. She went down at 6:30pm and woke up at 8:30, but resettled herself within about 3 minutes. Then she woke up at 9:30 and quickly became so frantic and hysterical that I had to actually pick her up and bounce her for a while to get her to calm down. It took me another 15 minutes of shush-patting to get her to go to sleep. Her next waking was at 1:40 and after 20 minutes of watching her do the same resettle/cry/repeat routine from last night I finally decided to give her some Tylenol and nurse her. I guess that helped because she stayed down until 5, when I nursed her again and she went back to sleep until 6:45.

I'm hoping that darn tooth will get all the way through her gums today and she will be back on track tonight.


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## jessicatunnel

Hey girls! 

It is 10:50am right now and I've just put Lilly down for her first nap of the day. It's so cute when I put her down to sleep. She cries for literally FIVE seconds, grabs her blankie, turns over and goes to sleep. She's the cutest. :cloud9:

Noelle, she did really good for being sick!! I hope she gets over her cold soon though, it's no fun having a sick baby. :(

Bananaz, poor baby. :( Hope she's feeling better soon. It's so sad to see them in pain I'm sure. Lilly has yet to cut a tooth, is teething but no sign of one coming any time soon. I'm lucky though that she hasn't been fussy at all yet, but I'm sure that will change when a tooth is about to break through!

Katrina, happy early birthday!! Hope you have a good one. :D I would also leave her be while she is chatting to herself, don't go in until she cries. My Lilly does this and eventually sends herself off to sleep.

Mrspear, your post takes me back to when Lilly hit the 4 month sleep regression. She was waking every 30min and I was exhausted. I do all the night feeds, but when the regression hit, I had to get DH to help me. I couldn't deal with waking every 30min on my own. SO GLAD that has passed!

Lilly went through the rolling over phase too, it was AWFUL. But it passed a lot quicker than I thought it would, and now she doesn't roll over at all in bed. 

Last night was a good one.
She is still waking up multiple times between the time she goes to bed and the time we go to bed, I just can't figure it out. I've tried moving her bed time, and her nap times, feeding her more, etc, it's not working. It's not really a huge bother since I'm awake anyway, but it would still be nice if she could go to sleep and stay asleep!

She went to bed at 645pm and only drank about 2oz before passing out in my arms.
She then woke at 730pm to finish her bottle.
Then woke up at 830, I went into her room to turn her whales on (we have this sheep that plays different noises, her favorite is the whale noises). I didn't interact with her at all, didn't even look at her, just turned the whales on and walked out. She put herself back to sleep. :D
She then woke at 1030 screaming bloody murder, I picked her up and shh'd her and rocked her and she fell back asleep. I soon went to sleep after. 
She then slept until 425am where she woke up for a bottle. Fed her her whole 6oz, and she slept until 845am where she woke up for the day. 

So all in all it was a good night. I'm really proud of her for doing such long stretches during the night, and for putting herself to sleep sometimes.

Can I ask a question? How do you ladies put your LO's to sleep, for naps and bedtime?
I'm still feeding to sleep... :blush: but she just won't go down any other way. If I just try rocking to sleep or singing it doesn't phase her. She needs the bottle nipple in her mouth to fall asleep. She doesn't and has never taken a binkie (pacifier) either. 
I feed to sleep for every nap and bedtime.


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## Noelle610

Bananaz, ugh teething! I'm so dreading that. Sounds like the tylenol helped. You can get infant advil too and it lasts longer if you want try something with more stamina. 

Jessica, that's a great long stretch you got! Go Lilly! I put Charlotte down awake. She will talk to herself or fuss sometimes, but she's usually out within ten minutes. It took a lot of practice though, with me going back into her room to sooth her every couple of minutes when we started doing it around 4 months.


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## bananaz

*jessica* - Wow, that's a great night! Yay, Lilly!

I also still feed to sleep most of the time just because it's the fastest, easiest method but singing and bouncing can work too, or if she's really tired then I can sometimes put her in the crib and shush-pat. I never put her down all the way asleep though - she's always awake enough that she'll roll over and make herself comfy when I put her down. For a while I was able to put her down wide awake but then I panicked about her not needing me anymore and I think I coerced her back into nursing down. Oops :blush:

My only advice is to keep trying different methods because they change so fast. Singing and shush-patting didn't do anything for Elsie until a couple months ago, before then only feeding or bouncing worked.


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## jessicatunnel

I think it was a good night! I don't really count the wakings she had before I went to bed, so if I don't count those, then it means she only woke up one time. :D :D Yaaaaay.

Feeding to sleep is easier and faster, I would love to be able to put her down awake, but I'm too scared and lazy, haha. I don't want to get her overtired, and mess up her whole night. :/


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## Noelle610

jessicatunnel said:


> Feeding to sleep is easier and faster, I would love to be able to put her down awake, but I'm too scared and lazy, haha. I don't want to get her overtired, and mess up her whole night. :/

Totall understand. That's how I felt when the doctor suggested night weaning. I just didn't want to try it because I was so exhausted and it never seemed like the right time. I was honestly really grateful when we did it - it worked so quickly. Unfortunately I'll probably have to do it AGAIN since Charlotte has been sick and I've been feeding her if she wants it. She just really needs her fluids since she has a cold and has been sick to her stomach, regardless of what time of day it is.

I don't necessarily say this to convince you to make the change RIGHT NOW, but just wanted to share some hope if you ever decide to try something new!


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## tentoes92

Last night was good for me too! I started to get him ready for bed at 8 30 but by 9 30 he was still wide Awake so I popped him in swing and told my oh to watch him while I
Showered. Went back to check on him and he was passed out. Too bad it was his swing, but its like he won fall askeep if I rock him but the swing works amazing. Anyways he slept til 230 then again til 530 was fussy on And off til 740 when we got up. Got him back asleep around 9 where he slept three more hours! I'm thinking maybe I should move his bedtime up? Since he obviously needed more sleep. What do you ladies think?


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## Noelle610

tentoes92 said:


> Last night was good for me too! I started to get him ready for bed at 8 30 but by 9 30 he was still wide Awake so I popped him in swing and told my oh to watch him while I
> Showered. Went back to check on him and he was passed out. Too bad it was his swing, but its like he won fall askeep if I rock him but the swing works amazing. Anyways he slept til 230 then again til 530 was fussy on And off til 740 when we got up. Got him back asleep around 9 where he slept three more hours! I'm thinking maybe I should move his bedtime up? Since he obviously needed more sleep. What do you ladies think?

That's great! An earlier bedtime has always worked best for my LO - even at a young age. It's worth a try. If the swing is working for you, use it. Your LO is so young, you can worry about good habits later. Hope you got some rest yourself! :flower:


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## katrinalorien

Thanks for the birthday wishes! I'm sure it will be great.


Sounds like everyone is doing well, bananaz - I bet after that tooth comes through Elsie will be doing better as well.


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## Shadowy Lady

katrinalorien said:


> Thanks for the birthday wishes! I'm sure it will be great.
> 
> 
> Sounds like everyone is doing well, bananaz - I bet after that tooth comes through Elsie will be doing better as well.

Oops I just saw this, happy birthday sweetie :hugs:

We're going backwards thiugh:dohh: Sofia didn't wanna be put down at all last night. She's acting like a newborn :nope:


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## bananaz

katrinalorien said:


> Thanks for the birthday wishes! I'm sure it will be great.
> 
> 
> Sounds like everyone is doing well, bananaz - I bet after that tooth comes through Elsie will be doing better as well.

I hope so. She's been taking 25 minute naps yesterday and today. I'm about to lose my mind :wacko:


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## katrinalorien

You have to take a picture of Elsie when her teeth come in - her smile is going to be fantastic!

Sorry that you're regressing Shadowy. I know there's a four month sleep regression that can sometimes happen in month 3. As long as she can self-soothe it should end. Its when babies begin to sleep more like adults. I really hope that's what is happening and it will end soon.


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## Shadowy Lady

Katrina - thanks hun! Hope you get spoiled for your birthday. You totally deserve it :)

Sofia ended up doing her normal nap hours but at different times. Hoping tonight will be better. I hope she hasn't forgotten how to self sooth and I didn't introduce a bad habit by picking her up when she was crying but not hungry last night...


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## lysh

Hi Ladies! Trying to catch up a bit!

Happy Birthday Katrina!!!! 

Noelle- Sending healing thoughts to your LO!!! We keep fighting colds in our household. I think our bodies are so worn out that we are a target for colds!!! Now that I am back in the classroom I am surrounded by germs daily! 

MrsPear- My LO had her regression at 3 1/2 months, thankfully it did not last long. Not that she went back to being a GREAT sleeper (never was to start with) but at least she is not waking up 9 times a night! Also, after moving LO into her own room (which actually was emotionally hard on me even though none of us were sleeping well being in the same bed together) that she ended up sleeping better (once she got use to it which did take a few weeks). Hang in there!

Bananaz- I dread teething. I hope your LO gets through it okay. I have a feeling, knowing our kids, it will be a challenge! lol But we can always hope! :)

Jessica- I still nurse to sleep. If LO wakes up while putting her down, I still put her down. If she stays asleep, then great. She is getting practice going to sleep without nursing while I am at work. And sometimes she does wake up a little bit when I put her down. I just have the same fears- I do not want to cause a domino effect for a bad night. I frankly do not have the energy right now!!!!!

SHadowyLady- I found 3 months to be harder than 4 months with my LO. At least now, my LO is getting a 4 hour stretch every now and then. 

tentoes- An earlier bedtime helped my LO too.....she finally started getting longer stretches of sleep and I attribute that partly to the earlier bedtime.

Well, my LO had a rough past two nights. We had a nice stretch where there was NO crying. I would easily nurse her and put her down. She would have stretches of sleep that typically went from 3 hours to 4 hours to 2 hours. I would nurse her when she woke up and she would easily go back into her crib. The past few nights were a bit rough though....I am also fighting a cold so last night I just could not attend to her every 2 hours so she had to cry for a bit. DH would check on her, but finally she fell asleep and then had a decent 3 1/2 hour stretch. Hoping tonight is okay too!!!!

Work kicked my butt this week......it will take time to get used to it. Before leaving now in the mornings, LO wants to stay latched to my nipple. At first, she would refuse to nurse before I left because at that point she would not be hungry. Now she cannot get enough...I think she is started to understand the morning routine and that mommy is leaving so she wants to stay attached. My poor sweetie!


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## bananaz

*lysh* - I'm sorry the past few nights have been difficult. Being sick and trying to take care of a baby is tough, I hope you're feeling better now.

Elsie just woke up after a 5.5 hour stretch and she keeps sitting up and crying. I went in to lie her back down once but she immediately sat up again. I thought maybe she was uncomfortable because her pain meds had worn off so I gave her another dose and tried to comfort her but then she became really hysterical so I left. Now she's sitting up in one corner of the crib hugging her frog and fussing off and on. I have no idea what to do :wacko:

Added: I went in and bounced her a bit and thought I'd finally gotten her settled, but after 5 minutes of lying there quietly she just sat up again out of nowhere! WTF! And now she's crying. arrrghhhh


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## katrinalorien

lysh and bananaz - I'm so sorry that you have had rough nights. I don't know what to do for the sitting up thing.


Well happy birthday to me, Lily slept through (no crying - no even resettling herself) from 11:15 - 5:15. I got a full night's sleep. I can't believe it. I even slept through most of it too.... wow...

Last night we had my parents over for dinner and we fed Lily too - just a little bit of rice cereal, not really much at all, surely that's not it... you guys don't really think it was the cereal do you? That's just me looking for a quick fix...


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## Noelle610

Oh my gosh ladies, I'm so tired. Was up from 12am to 5am with Charlotte. She has a high fever and I'm going to call the doc soon - luckily he has Saturday hours. It's nights like these that put other "bad" nights in perspective.


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## Shadowy Lady

Lysh - many hugs to you hun :hugs:Really crossing my fingers that things improve for you. I know it must be hard to have to work through this too...

Bananaz - man, I would literally just lay her down and cry :cry: have you talked to a pedi about what to do for the night time sitting up? You're making me scared on that stage now :/

Noelle - awww hun I'm sorry Charlotte is still not better. Best of luck in finding your doctor today and hoping she's back to herself soon:hugs:

Katrina - Yay!! She must have known it was ur birthday was treating u to good sleep :haha: You're making me wonder about the rice cereal though lmao!! 

So last night DH was in charge as Fridays are my nights off. We had a couple of difficult nights so I was worried. Sofia went to sleep at 7:45 with lil to no fussing and I went to bed downstairs at 9 pm or so. I did hear her cry some times later but not for too long. Right now it's 9:30 am and both DH and Sofia are asleep and I had a good 7 hours stretch. Waiting for DH to wake up and tell me about the night. I shall update after...


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## katrinalorien

Noelle - I hope she is ok. Does your doc not have an on call physician? These things always seem to happen on weekends. Or when you can't get a hold of someone


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## Noelle610

I know Katrina! They actually have Saturday hours, so we are on our way now. Will keep everyone posted.


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## bananaz

*katrina* - Yay! That's great! Given the progress you were already making I would guess the rice cereal is just a coincidence, but I do know a lot of people who swear by it so who knows...

*Noelle* - I'm so sorry Charlotte isn't feeling well :( I hope after her doctor's visit you're both able to catch up on sleep. Let us know how it goes!

*Shadowy Lady* - No I haven't talked to a pedi yet, this has only become an issue just recently but if it keeps up then I may have to! I'm glad you got 7 hours, that's awesome :)


I finally got LO to go down and STAY down after almost an hour and a half of trying. By the end she was too tired to protest much when I picked her up so I just held her for a few minutes and then laid her back in the crib and after a bit of patting she was out. She woke again at 4am for a feed and then went down easily (thank god) until 6:30. 

I still don't know what to do about the sitting issue. She knows how to get down from sitting - I watched her doing it repeatedly on the monitor last night. The problem was that she just kept getting back up! And then she would sometimes rotate herself so that she was facing a corner or she was pressed right up against the crib bars, at which point she was really stuck. Urgh.

To make matters worse I couldn't sleep myself last night. I didn't go to bed until 9pm and I woke almost an hour before she got up the first time and then of course I was really wired after trying to get her down for so long. In total I got probably 4 hours of broken sleep :coffee:


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## katrinalorien

bananaz - I'm so sorry! Does she get a lot of sitting time in the day? I bet you give her lots of time to exercise, but I have found that Lily tries to turn over in her crib a lot more if she doesn't get enough tummy time during the day to practice.


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## bananaz

katrinalorien said:


> bananaz - I'm so sorry! Does she get a lot of sitting time in the day? I bet you give her lots of time to exercise, but I have found that Lily tries to turn over in her crib a lot more if she doesn't get enough tummy time during the day to practice.

Right now she spends probably 90% of her awake time on the floor crawling around, sitting up and getting back down. I've even been playing fetch with her to try and wear her out lol. But she's so active and driven it wouldn't surprise me if that's not enough practice time for her. 

It's crazy how many milestones she's hit in just the past couple of weeks - pulling to standing, commando crawling, sitting herself up, babbling, getting her first tooth. Her brain must be in hyperdrive right now, so I guess it shouldn't be surprising that her sleep is off. 

Why won't these babies just take a break and relax once in a while??


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## Noelle610

Bananaz, I dread milestones for this reason! My LO is so sensitive to learning new skills that she just doesn't sleep. The weeks of her learning to roll were hell for us in terms of sleeping. I saw Charlotte get up on all fours in her crib the other night and I freaked out thinking, she better not starting crawling now she just started sleeping decently! LOL. We also give her lots of practice time, but it doesn't seem to make a difference.

I just got back from the pediatrician. Turns out Charlotte has a double ear infection. They gave her an injection of antibiotics since she has been vomiting so much. They said they can sometimes kick in in only 12 hours, so here's hoping that's our experience so we can all sleep a little tonight. Poor kid.


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## bananaz

Noelle610 said:


> I just got back from the pediatrician. Turns out Charlotte has a double ear infection. They gave her an injection of antibiotics since she has been vomiting so much. They said they can sometimes kick in in only 12 hours, so here's hoping that's our experience so we can all sleep a little tonight. Poor kid.

Oh no, poor thing, how terrible :( Ear infections are the worst. I hope she feels better soon. I hope you can at least give her some pain meds to help her be more comfortable?


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## Noelle610

bananaz said:


> Noelle610 said:
> 
> 
> I just got back from the pediatrician. Turns out Charlotte has a double ear infection. They gave her an injection of antibiotics since she has been vomiting so much. They said they can sometimes kick in in only 12 hours, so here's hoping that's our experience so we can all sleep a little tonight. Poor kid.
> 
> Oh no, poor thing, how terrible :( Ear infections are the worst. I hope she feels better soon. I hope you can at least give her some pain meds to help her be more comfortable?Click to expand...

Thanks. I've been trying to give her tylenol but she just pukes it back up! I may try putting it in some expressed breast milk, which she seems to tolerate in small doses.


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## Shadowy Lady

Noelle - finger crossed for you guys tonight. Hoping the medication will act by then and she gets to rest (and so do you).

I forgot to update about last night. DH said Sofia was asleep till 10:30 pm when she woke up crying. He went and soothed her and left and she was still fussing. So her went to get her bottle but got back to find her asleep. She stayed asleep till 2:30 am when she had her bottle and down again (with no fuss) till 6:30 am when she had her second bottle and slept again. I woke up at 8:30 am, came up to find them both asleep. She didn't wake up till about 10 am....

So it was a decent night but I'm not sure what the 10:30 pm wakeup was about. I think it may have been her teething as she wasnt hungry or anything. I'm taking tonight off as well as DH is working long hours next week and cannot help. 

Hope you all have a great night ladies :)


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## bananaz

Well this is how our night is going so far :coffee:

https://i436.photobucket.com/albums/qq82/lameo77/elsiecrib.jpg​
This is after I soothed her and laid her back down twice. My dad thinks she may be doing this in her sleep?? I'm going to give her a couple minutes this time and see if she can sort herself out, since my running in there every time clearly isn't helping...


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## tentoes92

Ugh! I had three good nights of only two feedings And hopes he was getting into a routine. Nope. Tonight he's been up at 2 4 and 545 and he woke up at 845 before I went to bed. Ugggggh.


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## Noelle610

Bananaz, definitely give Elsie some time to work it out on her own. We had to do the same with the rolling. I also think she's probably doing it in her sleep. 

Tentoes, we had two feedings up until 6 months, which is really normal. Three or four by a newborn is to be expected, so don't despair :) What does get easier, IMO, is that they become faster. Once your baby is more efficient, it won't take long to feed. Keep the room dark, speak softly (if at all) and don't make eye contact. This will help your baby to understand that it's night time and encourage her to fall asleep quickly after the feed. We got night feeds down to 15 minutes or so, so it was less disruptive in terms of moms sleep :)

Our night wasn't bad at all. I think the antibiotics are starting to kick in. Charlotte took an epic nap from 1:30pm to 4:30pm. Then she slept from 6:45pm to 3am. I fed her and gave her some advil and she's still sleeping now at 6:30am. Unfortunately I still woke every 2 hours... I've gotta do something about that! If only we could get some consistency.


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## bananaz

*Noelle* - So glad Charlotte is feeling and sleeping better! 6:45pm to 3am is an awesome stretch, but of course it doesn't feel that way unless you're actually sleeping as well. I hope now that she's getting over the ear infections she'll decide to keep up with the long stretches and then you'll be able to relax.

*tentoes* - Unfortunately I think 3-4 feedings is pretty typical at that age, but as Noelle said they do become more efficient so the feedings do get shorter. And if he's been in the habit of only waking twice he may very well go back to that tomorrow, everyone has an off night once in a while :hugs:

Speaking of off nights, Elsie has been up every two hours all night doing her sitting and fussing routine. The good news is that she's resettled herself and gone back to sleep on her own within 5-10 minutes every time except for this last one at 3:30 when I fed her, but it still hasn't made for a very restful night. Now it's 4am and I only have a couple more hours of potential sleep at the most and I'm wide awake! I hate this.


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## Noelle610

Bananaz, I know I've said it again and again, but there's nothing worse than being awake when your baby is sleeping! It probably feels exhausting to listen to Elsie sit up and resettle herself all night long, but this will pass. And then it will be on to the next! I'm dreading when they start to crawl!

Why are some babies (like ours!) so sensitive to these milestones, while others skate through them with no sleep disruption at all?


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## Shadowy Lady

bananaz - i don't know if anyone asked already, but does she sit during daytime too? Also, would it help to have her in a sleep sac?

Tentoes - I'm assuming based on your ticker your LO is 4-5 weeks old? I don't think you can expect a routine from her at such young age...you just gotta be patient now and continue as you are doing until she's older. Mine is 3 months and now is in a bit of a routine finally. She even went through stages of 7-8 hours stretches at night for 3 weeks and is now waking up again. Babies are like that even after 3 months so at a young age like yours for sure there is no consistency.

Noelle - glad Charlotte is better and getting some sleep. I know what you mean as i wake up even though Sofia's asleep too :/ Really hope this is not permanent.

Sofia was super fussy last night to start with. I've been trying to put her down awake but drowsy and it was always ok but now all of the sudden she hates it and wants to be held. So we let her fuss with continuous checking until she fell asleep at 8:30 pm. She had two feedings one at 2 and one at 6:30 am. She wanted to play after that though so I brought her into our bed till finally she slept at 8:30 am till 10:30 am.


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## katrinalorien

Bananaz- I agree with everyone - I think she might be sleep-sitting (perhaps its like sleep walking?) I hope you get some rest soon. Lily is rolling around in her crib... She was awake for quite some time last night rolling around, but I can tell she's awake. I have to stop going in there and rolling her back over, even though she gets so upset. 

I wish that she knew how to roll the other direction, but since she sleeps on her tummy she never gets any back time. I know, I shouldn't let her sleep on her tummy...ugh I wish she would learn to roll from back to tummy!


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## Noelle610

Shadowy Lady, Charlotte always goes down awake now, but until maybe 4.5 months it was only half of the time. Sounds like Sophia is making progress. She will learn!


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## bananaz

Shadowy Lady said:


> bananaz - i don't know if anyone asked already, but does she sit during daytime too? Also, would it help to have her in a sleep sac?

Yep, she spends most of her day crawling around and working on the sitting thing, so you'd think she wouldn't need to do it at night too! Unfortunately she's just as mobile in a sleep sack as she is in pajamas - I think all those months of swaddling just helped her learn how to maneuver herself even when contained.

It's great that Sofia is able to put herself to sleep with only some fussing. That's still something I'm working on with Elsie, but TBH I've been too lazy/scared to really push the issue. It sounds like you're making a lot of progress though!




katrinalorien said:


> Bananaz- I agree with everyone - I think she might be sleep-sitting (perhaps its like sleep walking?) I hope you get some rest soon. Lily is rolling around in her crib... She was awake for quite some time last night rolling around, but I can tell she's awake. I have to stop going in there and rolling her back over, even though she gets so upset.
> 
> I wish that she knew how to roll the other direction, but since she sleeps on her tummy she never gets any back time. I know, I shouldn't let her sleep on her tummy...ugh I wish she would learn to roll from back to tummy!


I also had the issue with Elsie rolling onto her back and then getting upset at night, but she'd known how to roll both ways for months and it was still a problem! Thankfully once I stopped rolling her back over it only took her a couple of nights for her to figure out how to get herself comfortable again.

Would Lily enjoy hanging out on one of those play mats with toys dangling overhead? That might be an easy way to give her more time on her back during the day so she can hopefully figure out the rolling thing.


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## Shadowy Lady

wow no updates since yesterday!!! Am I the only one who's LO is still not sleeping? lol!

Last night was pretty bad. We went from 2 night wakeup calls to like 4 and only 2 were for feeding. I'm starting to lose hope on this matter. It doesn't help that I only slept 2 hours (which was still interrupted too) and as per usual am unable to nap when Sofia naps :'(


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## Noelle610

Eesh sorry Shadowy Lady!

Our night wasn't so hot and I'm just trying not to think about it! I think the ear infections really did Charlotte in. She went to bed around 6:30pm and woke at 8:30pm (just as I was going to bed) and was WIDE AWAKE. That never happens to her. I couldn't figure out if she was overtired since she woke from her last nap around 2:30pm (but was in a GREAT mood all afternoon) or had had too much sleep over the previous days from being ill. I tried to feed her, but she still wouldn't relax. DH then took over for me because he was off work today and she finally drifted off around 9:30pm. DH gave her a dream feed around midnight. Then she woke at 2:30am and I fed her, not knowing about the dream feed. I really need to get back to not feeding at night, but because she's not taking her normal milk intake during the day yet I'm hesitant. We'll see how she does at daycare tonight. Then we were up for the day at 6:45am.

Reading that back, it doesn't sound half bad, but I'm exhausted for some reason! I think I'm getting a cold. I just feel like 6 months of sleep deprivation and insomnia has caught up with me. I probably fell asleep around 9pm, but woke at 12am when DH came to bed. I then woke around 1:45am, checked on Charlotte and was lying there awake until she woke at 2:30am. I think I was in a restless sleep from 4am until 5:15am when I decided to get up. DH has a cold and is snoring, so that doesn't help. I feel like I'm swimming today. OH and I have a work event to attend tonight - Hoping I can duck out quickly!

My BFF who has an easy baby (4 months and normally wakes only around 3am for a feed) who hasn't been sleeping very well the past couple of nights due to her 4 month shots. She sent me an email this morning titled "HOW ARE YOU ALIVE?" in regards to not sleeping over the past 6 months.... haha


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## MrsPear

Sorry Shadowy Lady, I have been so busy recently I've just not had chance to read through! I'm sorry you're still finding it so hard to sleep. That's really, really hard. I find it hard to sleep too, I'm always feeling too alert in case Joni wakes up even when she doesn't. I feel like even when she has a good night I'm still just as zonked the next day. I'm sorry you feel the same too, it's totally rubbish isn't it.

Joni has been sleeping better since being in her own room. Not perfectly, but only waking 2 or 3 times and it's totally manageable. The biggest difference is this night time routine that I have started. I have tried to do it before, but I'd say the reason it has worked this time is simply because she was ready for it and can understand a routine better, because all the other times she has simply cried and cried and not understood the 'cues' to sleep like the music I have and the low lights. So that's a relief.

Noelle, poor Charlotte. A double ear infection is enough to stop an adult in their tracks, so for a baby it must be so rough. No wonder her sleep has been less than brilliant again. Sometimes just getting up a few times can still leave you exhausted especially if each time is prolonged or you didn't get much rest for the previous few nights too.

Bananaz I know what you mean about 'not pushing the issue' e.g. with self settling. Everything is such tiny baby steps! But I don't think it would work for Joni any other way, and possibly Elsie too- I really feel like she needs to learn one small thing at a time. But sometimes I'm impatient to get more results!

Katrina- I am glad that Joni can't roll yet for the very reason that I don't want to have to deal with it at night! Sounds so hard. You say you shouldn't let her sleep on her tummy but I definitely believe that you do what you have to do to help them sleep and sometimes I personally think you have to break some of the rules to keep your sanity. I have let Joni sleep on me overnight before, which I know is really bad, but I just felt all I could do is make it as safe as possible because it's so incredibly hard having a baby that just won't sleep.

Tentoes- Like the others said that is probably fairly standard for your LO's age. BUT that doesn't mean it isn't just as difficult. From 0-8 weeks Joni was confused about night and day and everyone said it was normal- it DID NOT mean that I wasn't just as frustrated! I was going out of my tree with tiredness. I do hope that it passes for you soon then, try not to despair just yet, time passes very quickly and hopefully you will get some much needed sleep soon

x


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## bananaz

*Shadowy Lady* - I'm sorry things are rough :( It's so frustrating how variable and random baby sleep can be!

*Noelle* - I'm sorry you had a tough night as well. Do you have any idea what's keeping you awake? Waiting for the next baby wakeup or anxiety or something else? I've started doing deep breathing/positive thinking exercises while I'm trying to go to sleep, and they've actually been helpful. 

*MrsPear* - I'm so glad Joni is sleeping better in her own room and that the new routine is working! They definitely do have to be at a certain stage of development before a routine becomes meaningful or useful.


Elsie had a pretty good night last night, despite a rough start. She took a really late 20-minute nap in the car and then wouldn't go to sleep when I tried to nurse her down so I just set in her crib awake. She fussed for a few minutes but then stopped abruptly and when I checked the video monitor she was STANDING holding onto the front of her crib! She promptly fell onto her butt and didn't manage to pull herself up again but oh god, why now??

Anyway, she finally did go to sleep (on her own! happily! with no crying!) around 7:45pm and slept until 12:30am when she resettled herself after only a few minutes of fussing. She woke again at 3:40am when I nursed her, and then she was up for the day at 6:20am. So all in all really not bad, but I know that it's only a matter of time before the standing thing becomes a problem. I guess we might as well get all of these milestones out of the way at once, huh? :dohh:


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## jessicatunnel

Wow, bananaz, elsie is learning so many new things at once! Her mind must be in overdrive! 

Sorry I've been MIA the last couple days. 
I think Lilly is getting frustrated with trying to do things lately and she's been sooooo grumpy and needy. Pretty much wanting to be constantly held and I can't do that when I have things to do around the house! I can't even take a shower anymore until dh gets home! Ughhhhh.

Her sleep has pretty much been the same. She's only been waking once between her bedtime and mine which is an improvement but then she's waking up more at night again. She's been waking about three times at night now. So still pretty normal. 

Not much else to report.


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## Noelle610

Bananaz, that is kind of hilarious! Elsie is clearly a really smart kid and this stuff is just messing her sleep up. I wouldn't be suprised if you find she's a champion sleeper after you get all of these milestones out of the way. I think crawling is the last big one in terms of sleep disruption. 

MrsPear, bedtime routines are GREAT. While we've always struggled with night wakings, Charlotte usually goes down like a champ and I think our bedtime routine has helped. It gives her the signal that it's night time and offers an opportunity to wind down.

Bananaz, I think it's anxiety. Charlotte is an unpredictable sleeper and that keeps me on edge. I've always been a bit obsessive about sleep and getting enough. When I was pregnant I just prayed I'd have a good sleeper because of how much sleep I required. Well, that didn't happen! I've found melatonin helps me fall asleep, but I have difficulty going back to sleep after the first time I wake. I've tried some meditation that has helped part of the time, but sometimes I think it keeps me up longer as I'm so focused on relaxing that it has the opposite effect! I honestly think I'm suffering from a bit of postpartum insomnia, which is partially hormonal, and likely need an anti-depressent/anti-anxiety med. I made an appointment to see my midwife next week. I truly think if I could sleep when Charlotte sleeps I would be able to be decently rested at least part of the time. My DH is always teasing me because he can't understand HOW I don't get enough sleep when Charlotte has decent nights.

What's been helping me with this sleep stuff lately is just to have some pesrpective. Things change SO quickly, so when it's bad it's bound to get better at some point. I also think this is a short phase that won't last long. They won't be babies forever!


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## mrsbeano

jessicatunnel said:


> Wow, bananaz, elsie is learning so many new things at once! Her mind must be in overdrive!
> 
> Sorry I've been MIA the last couple days.
> I think Lilly is getting frustrated with trying to do things lately and she's been sooooo grumpy and needy. Pretty much wanting to be constantly held and I can't do that when I have things to do around the house! I can't even take a shower anymore until dh gets home! Ughhhhh.
> 
> Her sleep has pretty much been the same. She's only been waking once between her bedtime and mine which is an improvement but then she's waking up more at night again. She's been waking about three times at night now. So still pretty normal.
> 
> Not much else to report.

Hi Jessica :hi:

Just to let you know the clingyness may be teething related. For Quinn despite him showing what I thought was teething symptoms for ages he had no teeth and then last Monday he was sooo clingy and needy that I couldn't even put him in his buggy for a walk, let alone get anything done at home. I just stayed in for the rest of the week and held him all the time. Well on Saturday, we felt his first tooth! 

He is now significantly happier :thumbup: and I feel bad for being so frustrated with him screaming at me if I put him down last week :dohh:

Now if only he could learn how to sleep haha. The latest thing is waking up between 11-12 for a feed again?! I have given up. He is going to be the child who is waking up until he's at school. I'm just saving up for plastic surgery I'll need to look young :haha:


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## mrsbeano

Mrs Pear - so glad you've seen an improvement. Think we were both feeling desperate last week x

Noelle - I can't tell you how much I wished for a good sleeper too. My sister has a baby who is 21 weeks older than Quinn and he has slept through since he was 9 weeks. She stole my luck and I am soooo jealous. Hope your MW can give you something to help sleep when she does. 

Bananaz - hope it clicks into place soon for Elsie

Shadowy - I HATE it when it feels like you're going backwards. Hopefully it is just a short blip in the proceedings and she'll get back on track quickly x


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## Noelle610

mrsbeano said:


> Noelle - I can't tell you how much I wished for a good sleeper too. My sister has a baby who is 21 weeks older than Quinn and he has slept through since he was 9 weeks. She stole my luck and I am soooo jealous. Hope your MW can give you something to help sleep when she does.


Is god testing us?! :haha: Why did we get so unlucky? Don't get me wrong, my little girl ROCKS, but man I wish she would stop waking at night. The worst was when she was a newborn and my perspective was totally bonkers. I had three close friends in my mom & baby group and two of the babies started STTN at 6 weeks and the other woke maybe once or twice from that time on. I REALLY thought I was doing something wrong. If you search my posts, you will find one titled "8 Week Old Baby not STTN" or somthing like that. Most of the more experienced moms told me I was being ridiculous, but I just didn't know that some babies just don't sleep for a long time!


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## mrsbeano

Noelle610 said:


> mrsbeano said:
> 
> 
> Noelle - I can't tell you how much I wished for a good sleeper too. My sister has a baby who is 21 weeks older than Quinn and he has slept through since he was 9 weeks. She stole my luck and I am soooo jealous. Hope your MW can give you something to help sleep when she does.
> 
> 
> Is god testing us?! :haha: Why did we get so unlucky? Don't get me wrong, my little girl ROCKS, but man I wish she would stop waking at night. The worst was when she was a newborn and my perspective was totally bonkers. I had three close friends in my mom & baby group and two of the babies started STTN at 6 weeks and the other woke maybe once or twice from that time on. I REALLY thought I was doing something wrong. If you search my posts, you will find one titled "8 Week Old Baby not STTN" or somthing like that. Most of the more experienced moms told me I was being ridiculous, but I just didn't know that some babies just don't sleep for a long time!Click to expand...

Me either. I had been told that it improves by 6 weeks and they STTN by 12 weeks. Quinn isn't the worst but I'm a ten hours a night kinda gal if left to my own devices. That would happen every Friday and Saturday night. I did know that would go out the window but I thought that by 12 weeks I would be getting good sleep again. 

Also - biggest shock, who the heck decides that 5 hours is STTN. That's a loada **** haha. 

Oh well, only another 3-4 years before they get it :rofl:


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## Noelle610

mrsbeano said:


> Noelle610 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> mrsbeano said:
> 
> 
> Noelle - I can't tell you how much I wished for a good sleeper too. My sister has a baby who is 21 weeks older than Quinn and he has slept through since he was 9 weeks. She stole my luck and I am soooo jealous. Hope your MW can give you something to help sleep when she does.
> 
> 
> Is god testing us?! :haha: Why did we get so unlucky? Don't get me wrong, my little girl ROCKS, but man I wish she would stop waking at night. The worst was when she was a newborn and my perspective was totally bonkers. I had three close friends in my mom & baby group and two of the babies started STTN at 6 weeks and the other woke maybe once or twice from that time on. I REALLY thought I was doing something wrong. If you search my posts, you will find one titled "8 Week Old Baby not STTN" or somthing like that. Most of the more experienced moms told me I was being ridiculous, but I just didn't know that some babies just don't sleep for a long time!Click to expand...
> 
> Me either. I had been told that it improves by 6 weeks and they STTN by 12 weeks. Quinn isn't the worst but I'm a ten hours a night kinda gal if left to my own devices. That would happen every Friday and Saturday night. I did know that would go out the window but I thought that by 12 weeks I would be getting good sleep again.
> 
> Also - biggest shock, who the heck decides that 5 hours is STTN. That's a loada **** haha.
> 
> Oh well, only another 3-4 years before they get it :rofl:Click to expand...

Yup, I thought the same! Surely all babies slept the night by 12 weeks... and if they didn't, you were doing something WRONG. 

Oh well, like you said... just a few more years :sleep:


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## Noelle610

Even if you're not "sleep training", this is hilarious. Enjoy ladies:

OK, here's my situation. My Mommy has had me for almost 3 months. The first few weeks were great--I cried, she picked me up and fed me, anytime, around the clock. Then something happened. Over the last few weeks, she has been trying to STTN (sleep thru the night). At first, I thought it was just a phase, but it is only getting worse. I've talked to other babies, and it seems like its pretty common after Mommies have had us for around 5-6 months. Here's the thing: these Mommies don't really need to sleep. It's just a habit. Many of them have had some 30 years to sleep--they just don't need it anymore. So I am implementing a plan. I call it the Crybaby Shuffle.

It goes like this:

Night 1--cry every 3 hours until you get fed. I know, it's hard. It's hard to see your Mommy upset over your crying. Just keep reminding yourself, it's for her own good.

Night 2--cry every 2 hours until you get fed.

Night 3--every hour.

Most Mommies will start to respond more quickly after about 3 nights. Some Mommies are more alert, and may resist the change longer. These Mommies may stand in your doorway for hours, shhhh-ing. Don't give in. I cannot stress this enough: CONSISTENCY IS KEY!! If you let her STTN (sleep through the night), just once, she will expect it every night. I KNOW IT'S HARD! But she really does not need the sleep; she is just resisting the change.. If you have an especially alert Mommy, you can stop crying for about 10 minutes, just long enough for her to go back to bed and start to fall asleep. Then cry again. It WILL eventually work. My Mommy once stayed awake for 10 hours straight, so I know she can do it.

The other night, I cried every hour. You just have to decide to stick to it and just go for it. BE CONSISTENT! I cried for any reason I could come up with:

My sleep sack tickled my foot.

I felt a wrinkle under the sheet.

My mobile made a shadow on the wall.

I burped, and it tasted like rice cereal. I hadn't eaten rice cereal since breakfast, what's up with that?

The dog said "ruff". I should know. My Mommy reminds me of this about 20 times a day. LOL.

Once I cried just because I liked how it sounded when it echoed on the monitor in the other room.

Too hot, too cold, just right--doesn't matter! Keep crying!!

I had drooled so much my sheets were damp and I didn't like it touching me.

I decided I was sick of all the pink in my room so I cried.

It took awhile, but it worked. She fed me at 4am. Tomorrow night, my goal is 3:30am. You need to slowly shorten the interval between feedings in order to reset your Mommies' internal clocks. Sometimes my Mommy will call for reinforcements by sending in Daddy. Don't worry Daddies are not set up for not needing sleep the way Mommies are. They can only handle a few pats and shhing before they declare defeat and send in the Mommy.

Also, be weary of the sleep sheep with rain noises. I like to give Mommy false hope that listening to the rain puts me to sleep. Sometimes I pretend to close my eyes and be asleep and then wait until I know Mommy is settling back to sleep to spring a surprise cry attack. If she doesn't get to me fast enough I follow up with my fake cough and gag noise that always has her running to the crib. At some point I am positive she will start to realize that she really doesn't really need sleep.

P.S. Don't let those rubber things fool you, no matter how long you suck on them, no milk will come out. Trust me.


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## bananaz

Noelle610 said:


> Bananaz, that is kind of hilarious! Elsie is clearly a really smart kid and this stuff is just messing her sleep up. I wouldn't be suprised if you find she's a champion sleeper after you get all of these milestones out of the way. I think crawling is the last big one in terms of sleep disruption.

I hope you're right! I've felt for a long time that deep down she really is a "good" sleeper, she just has so much else going on that it gets in her way. Maybe that's just me trying to make myself feel better though :haha:




Noelle610 said:


> Bananaz, I think it's anxiety. Charlotte is an unpredictable sleeper and that keeps me on edge. I've always been a bit obsessive about sleep and getting enough. When I was pregnant I just prayed I'd have a good sleeper because of how much sleep I required. Well, that didn't happen! I've found melatonin helps me fall asleep, but I have difficulty going back to sleep after the first time I wake. I've tried some meditation that has helped part of the time, but sometimes I think it keeps me up longer as I'm so focused on relaxing that it has the opposite effect! I honestly think I'm suffering from a bit of postpartum insomnia, which is partially hormonal, and likely need an anti-depressent/anti-anxiety med. I made an appointment to see my midwife next week. I truly think if I could sleep when Charlotte sleeps I would be able to be decently rested at least part of the time. My DH is always teasing me because he can't understand HOW I don't get enough sleep when Charlotte has decent nights.
> 
> What's been helping me with this sleep stuff lately is just to have some pesrpective. Things change SO quickly, so when it's bad it's bound to get better at some point. I also think this is a short phase that won't last long. They won't be babies forever!


I totally get all of this. I know my hormones are still way out of whack from pregnancy and breastfeeding and I'm sure if I got that under control my sleep would improve, I just haven't found the time/energy to go see anyone about it yet. Anyway, I hope your midwife is helpful and that you're able to find some kind of medication to help with the anxiety. Being a mom is hard enough as it is!


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## Noelle610

bananaz said:


> Noelle610 said:
> 
> 
> Bananaz, that is kind of hilarious! Elsie is clearly a really smart kid and this stuff is just messing her sleep up. I wouldn't be suprised if you find she's a champion sleeper after you get all of these milestones out of the way. I think crawling is the last big one in terms of sleep disruption.
> 
> I hope you're right! I've felt for a long time that deep down she really is a "good" sleeper, she just has so much else going on that it gets in her way. Maybe that's just me trying to make myself feel better though :haha:Click to expand...

I find myself feeling the same way! It's strange to admit I think of Charlotte as a "good sleeper", but I just feel that deep down she is and _something_ - be it developmental milestones, reflux, illness, whatever - is keeping her from her true nature. It sounds ridiculous, but I think it's true!


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## bananaz

LOL That is awesome, Noelle! :rofl:


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## MrsPear

Noelle610 said:


> bananaz said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Noelle610 said:
> 
> 
> Bananaz, that is kind of hilarious! Elsie is clearly a really smart kid and this stuff is just messing her sleep up. I wouldn't be suprised if you find she's a champion sleeper after you get all of these milestones out of the way. I think crawling is the last big one in terms of sleep disruption.
> 
> I hope you're right! I've felt for a long time that deep down she really is a "good" sleeper, she just has so much else going on that it gets in her way. Maybe that's just me trying to make myself feel better though :haha:Click to expand...
> 
> I find myself feeling the same way! It's strange to admit I think of Charlotte as a "good sleeper", but I just feel that deep down she is and _something_ - be it developmental milestones, reflux, illness, whatever - is keeping her from her true nature. It sounds ridiculous, but I think it's true!Click to expand...

I always think this! Joni can sleep several hours, I know she can...but stuff gets in the way!! It's not her sleeping, it's everything else. x


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## Shadowy Lady

Noelle - thank you for the laugh, it totally made my day...that and the 30 mins nap I had just now. It's been a while since I had napped.

Hoping we all get some sleep tonight ladies. We're going away for the weekend and I'm already obsessing about not sleeping then :/


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## Noelle610

Wow, last night was horrendous. It was worse than having a newborn. It was probably also worse than the night Charlotte was sick, because she's on antibotics and I know she's feeling better - she's been the happiest, smiliest kid the past two days. I have no idea what is going on, but I suspect there could be a link to being off her routine last week and poor naps at daycare. C usually takes at least two 90 minutes naps, but yesterday she only napped for 35 minutes and 50 minutes all day.

She went down super quickly because she was exhausted. Beginning of the night was fine. DH did a dream feed around 10:30pm and she didn't wake earlier than that. Then the trouble started. She was up at midnight for an entire hour. I tried feeding even though I want to go back to the night weaning, as she's eating more during theday and feeling better now. She wouldn't even take it - rare for her at night. She went back to sleep around 1am and then was up... at 2am. I almost killed myself. She was up for another hour. I didn't try to feed her, just soothe, and nothing worked. I thought for sure I could at least get a couple hours of sleep at that point, but no. She woke again around 4:30am. At this point I decided to be up for the day. I am miserable this morning. 

I'm ashamed to admit at one point I had to put Charlotte in her crib while she was crying and take the dog out for a walk. I couldn't take it anymore. It got to the point where my DH just wanted to let her CIO, but I wasn't comfortable with that. She's been sick and was acting very unusually for her - even when she wakes often she usually goes back to sleep quickly if I rock or feed her. So I just wasn't comfortable with crying. DH and I got into a huge fight since he wanted to let her cry and I wanted to soothe her, but he refused to help soothe since he didn't agree with my approach. I think we were both just EXHAUSTED. I'm really not against sleep training, but I think the kid has to be healthy and both parties have to be on board. I don't think it's wise to choose to sleep train out of desperation at 3am.

I'm just really hoping last night was a one off. How does a baby go from STTN to sleeping like that in the course of a week?


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## MrsPear

Aww Noelle, sorry you had such a rough night. An early morning after a night like that is awful!

Joni didn't sleep brilliantly either, but not as bad as that. She went to bed at 6:30, woke at 7:30 (30 minutes), 10:00 (30 minutes), 12:00 (30 minutes), 4:30 (still very sleepy but wouldn't be put down after that). I ended up sleeping in her room with her and she did actually have a lie in until 8am but I was so uncomfy sat up with her so I didn't get any sleep after that. I wonder if she might still be teething? In a way I hope so, I want her to get all her bloody teeth out so we can relax!

eta- i'm not sure why babies sleep well then not well all of a sudden, so I hope it's a one off for you, but maybe when you finally manage to night wean again she will respond like she did before? Having an infection may have just knocked her out of routine and you might be able to get it back soon. Hope so anyway.


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## Noelle610

MrsPear said:


> eta- i'm not sure why babies sleep well then not well all of a sudden, so I hope it's a one off for you, but maybe when you finally manage to night wean again she will respond like she did before? Having an infection may have just knocked her out of routine and you might be able to get it back soon. Hope so anyway.

I really hope we can get back to where we were last week. I'm just so exhausted at having to keep working at this. Why does it come so naturally for some?


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## jessicatunnel

Noelle, looks like I'm not the only one who got in a fight with dh last night. :/ sorry your night was so rough, it must be so frustrating!

Well we had a pretty good night last night. Except for the fact that DH ROYALLY pissed me off. I get so excited when he gets home from work because I just miss him so much, and yesterday was no exception. I'm feeling pretty sick lately, and he comes home, everything was good, then he tells me he invited his whole platoon (like 15 guys PLUS their wives) to our house this weekend. Without even running it by me! Well that just instantly pissed me off. I'm getting sick, my baby has been ultra clingy, and the last think I want to deal with is 15 guys getting wasted in my back yard waking my baby up. I was pretty annoyed the rest of the night and he went to bed early. 
I got Lilly down to bed at 630, and she woke up at 1030 as I was going to bed. She wasn't actually crying so i left her. She was doing that whaaaaaaa, pause, whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa, pause, whaaaaaa, stop cry. She settled herself in four minutes. I'm not against sleep training at all but we don't do it in my house. If she's just fussing I will leave her, if she cries I will go get her. At 230am she woke up doing that same cry she did earlier so I left her again. Dh woke up this time and asked if I could hear her. I told him yes I'm leaving her for a few minutes. He then proceeds to get up to go to her room, I grabbed his arm and said "she's not crying, give her a chance to settle herself!" At which point she completely stopped crying. He continued to get up and told me he was going to check on her and I told him not to, and he said "what if something is wrong?!" And looked at me like I was the worst mother in the world. He got up and went into her room, she still wasn't crying, and then... She woke up and started crying!!!!!! Ughhhhhhh, I got a bottle ready and when dh came back in our room I said, "good job. I think its best if you get your stuff and sleep downstairs for the rest of the night." I fed her, came back to our room and he was gone. I went back to sleep and she woke at 6am and went back to sleep herself until 830am. 

So for her it was a great night, for me and dh it was a horrible night. He's never slept away from me, and we didnt even see each other this morning. I'm sure I overreacted, I know I did, but I was just soooo annoyed by him for hours already. 

Now my throat is killing me and I don't want to get Lilly sick so she's playing on the floor and im dreading when she starts getting grumpy and wanting me to hold her. And all this a week before we go home for Christmas holiday!!

Wow. Sorry about the novel. It was more about me then Lilly! I think I just needed to get it off my chest.


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## Shadowy Lady

Noelle - i'm sorry you had an off night. I do agree with your approach on sleep training though. It will def not work on a sick kid. Charlotte will be back to herself when she feels better I just know it!

Joni - good luck with the teething. I hear that if it affects them a lot in the early months it's much better when they get the rest of their teeth so there's hope :)

I was so exhausted with my poor night sleep that DH sent me downstairs last night and took charge. I love him so much for doing that even though it was the middle of the week. Sofia went down at 8:30 pm and my DH tells me she didn't wake up till 4:20 am for her feed!!! And then down again till 8:00 am. 

Funny how she always sleeps better when DH is in charge. Maybe he should always be the night feeding person lol!


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## bananaz

*Noelle* - I'm so sorry you had such a bad night! That kind of sleep deprivation would make anyone ready to snap so don't beat yourself up about it. And given how out of character this was for Charlotte, I would really guess that it was just an off night and things will be back on track again today :hugs:

*MrsPear* - Sorry you had a difficult night as well :( Does she already have teeth? Having to deal with teething so early is totally not fair!

*Jessica* - Yikes, making those middle-of-the-night decisions is hard enough without having someone else around second-guessing you! I guess that's one of the perks of being a single parent, haha. I don't know what I would do if someone woke Elsie up in the middle of the night after she'd settled herself, but it wouldn't be pretty! It sounds like Lilly did have a pretty good night though, even if you didn't, so hopefully that will continue.

*Shadowy Lady* - Wow, what a great night! It does sound like your DH should take over the night shift, haha.


Last night was really good for us. Elsie settled herself to sleep again at 7pm despite my trying to nurse her down and then didn't wake until 2am! I waited a few minutes to see if she would go back to sleep on her own but she didn't so I nursed her for 5 minutes and when I put her back down she was wide awake. She ended up taking another 20 minutes of intermittent fussing to go back to sleep. Then she woke up at 5:35 and I again waited to see if she would settle, but that was a mistake because it allowed her to wake all the way up and of course she decided she was up for the day :wacko:

I usually don't go to bed until 9 so I would love to push that first waking to 3 or 4, but I'm probably getting ahead of myself here. I guess for now I should just hope that those 10pm-12am wakings are done with.


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## mrsbeano

Goodness me ladies!! Whats going on with these kiddies?! A bit of consistency please - consistently good would be nice :winkwink:

Jessica, I can't tell you how much me and my DH have the same arguments re giving them an opportunity to settle themselves. He wants there to be as little noise as possible but doesn't understand its for the greater good. He does get to wear earplugs to bed but chooses not to. His own fault I say. 

Mrs Pear & Noelle, not so great nights for you - booooo. A lovely Mum at a baby group once told me to always forget the previous nights activities, whether they've been good or bad because most babies aren't the same every night. Just look at every night seperately and deal with it as and when. A super healthy attitude but not one I'm able to adopt unfortunately. 

Shadowy - woohoo to a good night. Your DH sounds awesome being so helpful at night. 

I dream fed Quinn last night because he had been waking up before midnight for a feed again recently and I always feel groggy when I get woken up so soon after I go to sleep. He then woke up at 1.30 and I'm not too sure why. It seemed like he was crying in his sleep or something. I just gave him a cuddle and then put him back down. He fussed for a couple of minutes and then went to sleep until I woke him up at... 8.30am!!! So feeling well rested today although I have no idea why he woke up at 1.30? Think I will dream feed again tonight and see how that goes.


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## Noelle610

Great night Shadowy Lady! Your DH sounds lovely.

Jessica, sounds like Lilly did fantastically. So sorry about your argument with your DH. My husband and I typically have a GREAT relationship, so our argument was unusual too. I totally get where you are coming from not wanting all of those people over. It's hard, because you want to support your spouse and give them some freedom, but at the same time your baby's needs have to come first. Hope you guys have a better day today.


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## Noelle610

Bananaz and MrsBeano, congrats on great nights ladies!


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## MrsPear

Mrsbeano and Bananananaz congrats on your good nights- you both deserve them! 

Jessica I'm sorry you still didn't get a good night even though Lilly did. If it's not one thing it's another isn't it. I don't think you overreacted- things just seem more dramatic at night and you feel calmer in the day.

Shadowy Lady, that was good of your DH, I hope you got a good sleep. He sounds like a great partner to have 

I just went to baby weigh clinic and Joni is still gaining very slowly...she said, "perhaps you can feed her more often at night..." eeerrrrrrrrrm...

eta- Bamanaz she has had 2 teeth for about a week or two now x


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## bananaz

So I decided to go look at old sleep data just to see if the change really has been as dramatic as I thought it was and um, wow, yes it has been! The chart on the left is from when she was 4 months old and the chart on the right is the last 30 days (blue = asleep, yellow = awake). 

Why does everyone make it seem like infant sleep is this linear thing that just gets better and better until they start STTN? What a load of BS!
 



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## Noelle610

MrsPear said:


> I just went to baby weigh clinic and Joni is still gaining very slowly...she said, "perhaps you can feed her more often at night..." eeerrrrrrrrrm...

:rofl::rofl::rofl:


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## bananaz

MrsPear said:


> I just went to baby weigh clinic and Joni is still gaining very slowly...she said, "perhaps you can feed her more often at night..." eeerrrrrrrrrm...
> 
> eta- Bamanaz she has had 2 teeth for about a week or two now x

Yeah, maybe you should start waking her to eat! Clearly 4 times a night isn't enough :dohh:

Wow, two teeth at 5 months, poor thing! I hope you both get a break for a while. Even if the next pair is a bit early I don't think they should show up until at least 7 months? But who knows...


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## Noelle610

bananaz said:


> So I decided to go look at old sleep data just to see if the change really has been as dramatic as I thought it was and um, wow, yes it has been! The chart on the left is from when she was 4 months old and the chart on the right is the last 30 days (blue = asleep, yellow = awake).
> 
> Why does everyone make it seem like infant sleep is this linear thing that just gets better and better until they start STTN? What a load of BS!

What is it with us and these unpredictable kids?


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## Noelle610

Last night was better, but not great. Charlotte only took two 30 minute naps yesterday and was super overtired. DH put her to bed at 6pm, before I got home. She didn't wake, but kept crying out between sleep cycles because of exhaustion, I think. She woke at 3am, so nice long stretch, but was up for an hour getting up on all fours, yelling "ba ba ba ba" and sometimes crying. Pretty sure she and Elsie are trading notes on how to best frustrate your mom when learning something new. 

I went to bed super early - 8pm - but didn't fall aslep until 10pm. I awoke at 12:58am (I remember!) and was pretty much awake the rest of the morning. It SUCKED. I'm so so tired and I have tons of appointments today at work. I need to get this insomnia under control. Just one more week until I see my midwife about it. Blah. Can you die of sleep deprivation? Alliss, you're still alive so I'm hopeful you can't :)


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## MrsPear

I shouldn't laugh but it does make me smile that our babies do the cutest things at the most inappropriate times. I had to smile at Elsie standing up in the cot, and now at Charlotte yelling ba ba ba ba ba on all fours. I do still feel sorry for you both though.

Sorry you didn't get any sleep Noelle, that really sucks. I am job hunting at the moment and I am not sure how I will cope! I think you do very well working and looking after Charlotte every night.

I can't even remember how Joni slept. She was up at 11:51 I know that because I hate it when she doesn't make it to midnight! After that I think she did 3 hours which is not too bad, and then up more after that so that's pretty standard really. OH is off today so it makes it a lot better (although he's in a really bad mood and I'm just not feeling sympathetic so I did slam the door on him earlier but unfortunately I don't think he noticed!).

I did a really awful thing yesterday and was getting stuff to change her nappy and Joni rolled off the sofa. It was so awful. I don't feel like I can complain about her any more when I did that. The poor girl. 

xx


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## Noelle610

MrsPear, you can and should laugh! It's the only thing that keeps me going :)

You will be fine when you go back to work. In some ways it's less exhausting than caring for a baby and it's nice to have adult time. I just don't want to talk to anyone today, so that's why I am complaining!

If I told you how many times Charlotte had fallen off the couch, bed, whatever, you would call social services on me. I think it's a right of passage for a new mom!


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## mrsbeano

Noelle610 said:


> MrsPear, you can and should laugh! It's the only thing that keeps me going :)
> 
> You will be fine when you go back to work. In some ways it's less exhausting than caring for a baby and it's nice to have adult time. I just don't want to talk to anyone today, so that's why I am complaining!
> 
> If I told you how many times Charlotte had fallen off the couch, bed, whatever, you would call social services on me. I think it's a right of passage for a new mom!

:hugs: Insomnia is not good. The only thing I've found to help me is to get up and do some kind of job to completely stop me thinking about his sleep so I may be cleaning the kitchen floor at 3am but by the time I'm done I'm knackered and go back to sleep. It just clears my head x


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## jessicatunnel

Last night was HORRIBLE. :( :(
DH was sick last week and stayed away from me and Lilly as much as possible but I still managed to catch it and now I've passed it on to my poor baby. :(
She went to bed at 6:30 last night and woke up about 5 times between 630 and 9pm. At 9pm she would NOT go back down, she refused so much! And she wouldn't take a bottle because she couldn't breathe out of her poor little stuffy nose. At 930 we ended up taking her to bed with us. She fell asleep almost instantly and slept for a good 30 minutes. Then DH sneezed and she woke up screaming. :dohh: I got her to sleep again, and DH either kept moving, talking in his sleep, or the dog kept scratching and his collar rattled. So Lilly kept waking up and at 1130pm I ended up taking her into her room and set her in her crib. She moved around a little, rolled to her side, pulled her blanket on her face and went to sleep. I thought, "Well that was easy!" And she slept from 1130 to 430 so that was a nice long stretch. She woke up at 430 and it took me an hour to get her to go back to sleep. She was still having trouble breathing out of her nose. She woke about four or five times between 530 and 730. She was up for the day at 730. She's sitting next to me playing and if you could just hear her breathing it would break your heart. :cry: She sounds awful and I feel so sorry for her!

Is there anything I can do to help unclog her nose and get her breathing better? I tried the suction bulb thing but it just keeps getting stuffy again. :/

I'm so so tired this morning. This is going to be a LONG day.


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## Noelle610

Jessica, so sorry! That sounds like such an awful night, similar to our recent experience with Charlotte and the epic double ear infection.

Our pediatrician told us not to use the nasal aspirator, suprisingly. He recommended saline solution (you can get it for babies at the drug store). He sais a nasal aspirator will dry them out and can cause damage if used too frequently. I would also prop up the head of Lilly's crib. I placed a thick beach towel underneith. That way her sinuses can drain a little bit. Baby Vick's on the chest and feet works well. If you have a humidifier, crank it up on high and put it in her room. Before bed, I would bath Charlotte in her baby bath in our bathroom with the shower turned on super hot (away from her) so that the room go super steamy. This will really clear her out and help her take a good feed before bed.

Hope that helps - good luck! Hope the whole family feels better. Both DH and I are sick at the moment too, unfortunately.


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## jessicatunnel

Noelle610 said:


> Jessica, so sorry! That sounds like such an awful night, similar to our recent experience with Charlotte and the epic double ear infection.
> 
> Our pediatrician told us not to use the nasal aspirator, suprisingly. He recommended saline solution (you can get it for babies at the drug store). He sais a nasal aspirator will dry them out and can cause damage if used too frequently. I would also prop up the head of Lilly's crib. I placed a thick beach towel underneith. That way her sinuses can drain a little bit. Baby Vick's on the chest and feet works well. If you have a humidifier, crank it up on high and put it in her room. Before bed, I would bath Charlotte in her baby bath in our bathroom with the shower turned on super hot (away from her) so that the room go super steamy. This will really clear her out and help her take a good feed before bed.
> 
> Hope that helps - good luck! Hope the whole family feels better. Both DH and I are sick at the moment too, unfortunately.

Thanks so much for that! I just sat with her in the bathroom with the shower running and it cleared up her nose a lot. She ate properly and I put her in her boppy for her nap so that she's elevated. I feel so sorry for her. I hate seeing my baby sick. :cry:


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## Noelle610

I know, it's the worst! Glad the steamy bathroom helped :)


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## bananaz

*Noelle* - Hahah, oh god, I'm sorry! Thankfully babbling seems to be the one milestone that hasn't affected Elsie's sleep, but with the getting on all fours thing it sounds like Charlotte's getting ready to crawl? Oy. Lots of luck to you, I hope she works through things quickly!

*MrsPear* - :hugs: Like Noelle said, I think falling off of stuff is really a baby rite of passage. Try not to beat yourself up about it (easier said than done, I know)

*Jessica* - I'm so sorry you and Lilly are sick and had such a difficult night :( I agree with Noelle about the saline solution and the humidifier. I've also found that using saline with the Nosefrida is a lot more effective than using a bulb aspirator, plus it just goes at the entrance to the nostril so you're not shoving anything up into their nose.


After the rough time everyone else had, I'm almost embarrassed to admit that last night was amazing for us. I put Elsie down awake at 6:40 and she sat and played with her frogs for a bit before finally falling asleep at 7pm. Then she slept until 4am! I fed her and put her back down but she was wide awake and didn't fall back asleep until 4:45. She slept another 2 hours and was up for the day at 6:45. 

I'm very skeptical about this becoming an actual pattern, however, because I think she's going through some kind of crazy growth spurt. She's been unbelievably fussy and difficult the past couple of days and has been eating nonstop. I guess we'll see if the good sleep continues once she gets back to normal (which will be soon I hope, I don't know how much more of the yelling and grumpiness I can take)


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## Noelle610

Go Elsie! Your victory gives us hope Bananaz!


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## Shadowy Lady

Noelle - I'm sorry about the terrible night. I can so relate to insomnia...it's really painful to go through and I cannot imagine how u do it AND work too...

Mrs Pear - don't worry hun I hear everyone's baby will fall off the couch/sofa at some point. I nearly dropped Sofia today but caught her last minute. My cousin's 13 year old rolled off the changing table when she was 6 months old and knocked off the two teeth she did have. Trust me she's ok and does not remember the incident.

Jessica - I'm so sorry Lilly got a cold sweetie :( it happened to us a few weeks ago and it was awful sleepwise. I did find giving her a steam bath before bed and clearing her nose plus having the humidifier on in her room did help. Maybe try these tonight? I also gave Sofia a dose of baby tylenol before bed when she was sick too...

_oh and I typed all this before seeing Noelle recommending the same, hahaha_

Bananaz - that's amazing hun! Enjoy your rest and hope the new trends sticks. You totally deserve the rest :)

Last night was ok for us. The good news is that the modified Ferber is working great for us. Now I'm able to feed Sofia, put her down drowsy and she sleeps with no fuss in 5-10 mins. She did that last night too and slept at 8:30pm. She woke up for her feed at 3 am but I woke up at 12 randomly and didn't go back to sleep till she woke up....arghhhhhhhhh!!! After her 3 am feed, she slept again till 6:30 am, had another feed and then up at 9 am for the day.

Why on Earth do I wake up when she's sleeping???? I'm so tired today and I have a Zoomba class in like 30 mins :/


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## jessicatunnel

Thanks girls, I'm going to try everything tonight! We have a humidifier and I have it constantly running in her room. The steam from the shower did wonders but only for a little while, and I'm going to look for the saline drops, can you get them at walmart or target? CVS, Walgreens, RiteAid? Etc. Haha. 
We gave her some tylenol last night but didn't seem to do anything? I'm not quite sure it's for colds, is there anything else I could give her or should I consult a dr. before giving her anything?


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## bananaz

jessicatunnel said:


> Thanks girls, I'm going to try everything tonight! We have a humidifier and I have it constantly running in her room. The steam from the shower did wonders but only for a little while, and I'm going to look for the saline drops, can you get them at walmart or target? CVS, Walgreens, RiteAid? Etc. Haha.
> We gave her some tylenol last night but didn't seem to do anything? I'm not quite sure it's for colds, is there anything else I could give her or should I consult a dr. before giving her anything?



You can get the saline drops pretty much anywhere I think. There's a brand called "Little Noses" that's specifically for infants but I think any kind of saline drops will work.

I would probably talk to a doctor before giving her any cold products because most of them are marketed toward older children and don't have dosing info for babies.


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## Noelle610

bananaz said:


> jessicatunnel said:
> 
> 
> Thanks girls, I'm going to try everything tonight! We have a humidifier and I have it constantly running in her room. The steam from the shower did wonders but only for a little while, and I'm going to look for the saline drops, can you get them at walmart or target? CVS, Walgreens, RiteAid? Etc. Haha.
> We gave her some tylenol last night but didn't seem to do anything? I'm not quite sure it's for colds, is there anything else I could give her or should I consult a dr. before giving her anything?
> 
> 
> 
> You can get the saline drops pretty much anywhere I think. There's a brand called "Little Noses" that's specifically for infants but I think any kind of saline drops will work.
> 
> I would probably talk to a doctor before giving her any cold products because most of them are marketed toward older children and don't have dosing info for babies.Click to expand...

Little Noses is the one we use - it's great :) I think they also have a product called "Little Colds" which is like Baby Vicks. 

I think Bananaz is right about cold medicine - talk to your doctor. I know some doctors will recommend Benadryl, which would help her sleep too, but there aren't a lot of studies as to whether it's really safe for infants. I personally think it's probably fine if she is really struggling.


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## lysh

I, once again, have a lot of catching up to do!! 
I am not sure what I last posted......last Friday night baby girl had an AWESOME night...she slept 6 hours and 20 minutes without waking up!!!!!! I, however, woke up at 3:30am and because that is usually when she would wake up again, I could not go back to sleep. :dohh: Then the longer it went without her waking, I became worried and had to check on her (even though I had a video monitor). By then I was awake. lol 
Sooooo........needless to say, that was the ONLY awesome night! lol After that, we went a bit downhill and now we are back to waking up about every 2 1/2 to 3 1/2 hours. The 3 1/2 hour stretches are nice, but usually happens first thing in the night when I am up for most of it. 

I have been battling a sinus infection/laryngitis this week. Hard to teach without a voice so I am taking tomorrow off (which stinks because I just started back!) At least I get the day with my girl, hopefully she will behave herself and I can get some rest. 

I am going to backtrack now and try to catch up a bit to see how everyone is doing!


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## Noelle610

Lysh, congrats on a great night. Hope they become more frequent! Totally sympathize - I'm sick too! It's going around!

Jessica, hope Lilly is starting to feel a bit better?

We had a great night. I think Charlotte slept through! We put her down at 6:30pm and DH gave her a dream feed at 10pm. I took a Tylenol PM because I'm sick and he was "on duty". He said he thought her stir for 5 minutes around midnight and "chat" to herself a few hours later, but she never properly woke. I was a bit worried that maybe he slept through some crying, but I don't sleep that deeply even with medication so I feel I would have heard her if she really needed me. I feel a lot better today! Still sick though, yuck.


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## mrsbeano

Great stuff Noelle. Hopefully good nights will be the norm and bad nights only when something's up. 

We're in a good run these past few nights really. He had his best night ever on Tuesday night - 12 solid hours. Last night he went til 5, had a half feed and back down again until 8.15am but his day was all out after yesterday's trauma (don't know if you saw my other thread!)


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## Noelle610

mrsbeano said:


> Great stuff Noelle. Hopefully good nights will be the norm and bad nights only when something's up.
> 
> We're in a good run these past few nights really. He had his best night ever on Tuesday night - 12 solid hours. Last night he went til 5, had a half feed and back down again until 8.15am but his day was all out after yesterday's trauma (don't know if you saw my other thread!)

Oh my gosh, I did see your thread! Poor thing.

That's so wonderful. Cheers to both our LOs... here's hoping they are starting a pattern! 12 solid hours is BEAUTIFUL.


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## Shadowy Lady

Omg guys, Sofia slept from 8:30 pm to 5:00 am this morning!! I just had to express my happiness! I'm on the road now I'll come back in a few hours and catch up with everyone :)


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## jessicatunnel

Wow, mrsbeano, shadowylady, and noelle, sounds like ya'll had great nights! We did too. :D

Well, the beginning of the night was HELL. She went to bed at 6:00 and was waking every 30 minutes after that. We spent a few hours trying to get her to go to sleep. Lots of screaming and crying during this time. At 930, she was SO tired, that we just put her down in her crib and she went to sleep. And slept until... drum roll... 5am! Yay Lilly! She woke up at five and I gave her a bottle because she must have been starving because she hadn't really eaten since about 4 in the afternoon. She went straight back down after her bottle and slept until 8. :D

She's still sick but feeling A LOT better than yesterday. I hope she gets over this by next tuesday. We're flying home for the holiday and would hate for my family who hasn't seen her in months to see her grumpy and sick. :(
And I just hate seeing my poor baby like this. :/


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## Noelle610

Shadowy Lady said:


> Omg guys, Sofia slept from 8:30 pm to 5:00 am this morning!! I just had to express my happiness! I'm on the road now I'll come back in a few hours and catch up with everyone :)

Yay!!!!!!!!!


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## Noelle610

jessicatunnel said:


> Wow, mrsbeano, shadowylady, and noelle, sounds like ya'll had great nights! We did too. :D
> 
> Well, the beginning of the night was HELL. She went to bed at 6:00 and was waking every 30 minutes after that. We spent a few hours trying to get her to go to sleep. Lots of screaming and crying during this time. At 930, she was SO tired, that we just put her down in her crib and she went to sleep. And slept until... drum roll... 5am! Yay Lilly! She woke up at five and I gave her a bottle because she must have been starving because she hadn't really eaten since about 4 in the afternoon. She went straight back down after her bottle and slept until 8. :D
> 
> She's still sick but feeling A LOT better than yesterday. I hope she gets over this by next tuesday. We're flying home for the holiday and would hate for my family who hasn't seen her in months to see her grumpy and sick. :(
> And I just hate seeing my poor baby like this. :/

Are Lilly, Sophia and Charlotte sending each other text messages? Yeah for sleeping through, babies! 

I hope she feels better, too. Tis the season for sick babies (and mommies).


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## MrsPear

Awww jealous of everyone (although MrsBeano I just looked at your other thread and that is so scary and stressful! Poor you :hugs: really glad it all worked out okay). We didn't have a great night :nope: 

I think Joni was overtired because she didn't want a bedtime story at 6:15 but she cried until 7pm, then woke up crying at 8:30, I did a dream feed at 10.00, she woke crying at 11:00 and then cried every couple of hours until 5:30am when I held her until she woke up at about 7am. So not a very successful night! I think that the good nights after we put her in her own room must have been a coincidence although I suppose it is better than waking every 30 minutes.

i am feeling so guilty at the moment because she was just crying for about an hour, properly screaming, and I was getting so annoyed with her. I feel so horrible when I am like that. When I'm not tired I can cope with her crying much better but I feel so cross with her sometimes. I can keep it inside (mostly) but every 20 minutes or so I do have to put her down for a minute and just check my emails or something. I sit next to her and hold her hand (if she'll let me) but I just need to calm myself. But then I feel really bad about it, I should be able to cope, I am the adult and she needs me. I feel like a really awful mum today, like she might be better off without me.

Now she is asleep IN HER COT and has been for about 30 minutes, which is the first time she has ever slept successfully in her cot in the day. :happydance::happydance:


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## jessicatunnel

Seriously! When one has a bad night, the others do too, when one has a good night, they all do! LOL


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## jessicatunnel

MrsPear said:


> Awww jealous of everyone (although MrsBeano I just looked at your other thread and that is so scary and stressful! Poor you :hugs: really glad it all worked out okay). We didn't have a great night :nope:
> 
> I think Joni was overtired because she didn't want a bedtime story at 6:15 but she cried until 7pm, then woke up crying at 8:30, I did a dream feed at 10.00, she woke crying at 11:00 and then cried every couple of hours until 5:30am when I held her until she woke up at about 7am. So not a very successful night! I think that the good nights after we put her in her own room must have been a coincidence although I suppose it is better than waking every 30 minutes.
> 
> i am feeling so guilty at the moment because she was just crying for about an hour, properly screaming, and I was getting so annoyed with her. I feel so horrible when I am like that. When I'm not tired I can cope with her crying much better but I feel so cross with her sometimes. I can keep it inside (mostly) but every 20 minutes or so I do have to put her down for a minute and just check my emails or something. I sit next to her and hold her hand (if she'll let me) but I just need to calm myself. But then I feel really bad about it, I should be able to cope, I am the adult and she needs me. I feel like a really awful mum today, like she might be better off without me.
> 
> Now she is asleep IN HER COT and has been for about 30 minutes, which is the first time she has ever slept successfully in her cot in the day. :happydance::happydance:

Don't beat yourself up hun. We all have those moments. I was like that at the beginning of the night last night. When you're tired EVERYTHING is so much worse and I know I get so much grumpier at everyone. You are not a bad mom, you just needed a break, you needed to breathe!
It's better for her if you tend to her after having a little break to pull yourself together than you tending to her when you're impatient, frustrated, or annoyed. :hugs:


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## Noelle610

MrsPear said:


> Awww jealous of everyone (although MrsBeano I just looked at your other thread and that is so scary and stressful! Poor you :hugs: really glad it all worked out okay). We didn't have a great night :nope:
> 
> I think Joni was overtired because she didn't want a bedtime story at 6:15 but she cried until 7pm, then woke up crying at 8:30, I did a dream feed at 10.00, she woke crying at 11:00 and then cried every couple of hours until 5:30am when I held her until she woke up at about 7am. So not a very successful night! I think that the good nights after we put her in her own room must have been a coincidence although I suppose it is better than waking every 30 minutes.
> 
> i am feeling so guilty at the moment because she was just crying for about an hour, properly screaming, and I was getting so annoyed with her. I feel so horrible when I am like that. When I'm not tired I can cope with her crying much better but I feel so cross with her sometimes. I can keep it inside (mostly) but every 20 minutes or so I do have to put her down for a minute and just check my emails or something. I sit next to her and hold her hand (if she'll let me) but I just need to calm myself. But then I feel really bad about it, I should be able to cope, I am the adult and she needs me. I feel like a really awful mum today, like she might be better off without me.
> 
> Now she is asleep IN HER COT and has been for about 30 minutes, which is the first time she has ever slept successfully in her cot in the day. :happydance::happydance:

So sorry you had a tough night! I don't think the good nights in her own room were coincidence - I think Joni just had an off night. They all do, for reasons unknown. It's awesome she's in her cot right now!

Don't feel bad about needing a break. We all do and it is absolutely 100 times harder when you are sleep deprived. As my former, hippie/attchment parenting midwife used to say... "No baby ever died from crying".


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## bananaz

Wow, I'm so glad most of you guys had good nights! Yay for sleeping through!

*MrsPear* - Sorry last night was rough for you :( I agree with Noelle, it's probably just an off night.

Last night wasn't fantastic for us. I think her other bottom tooth is coming through, so I gave her some ibuprofen before bed. She still had a hard time falling asleep though, and finally passed out a bit after 7pm after she'd been awake for almost 4 hours. Then she woke up at 1am (right when the ibuprofen wore off, I'm guessing not a coincidence). She fussed a bit off and on and then started really crying so I went in to try and soothe her, at which point she became totally hysterical. I was exhausted and I knew it was going to be a huge battle to get her back to sleep without feeding her so... I fed her. 

Then she went back down until 4:30, when I went in to nurse her again, but when I put her back down she just wouldn't settle and I ended up giving her some Tylenol and then brought her into bed with me. Finally at 5:45 I put her back in her crib and after crying for about 10 seconds she passed out until 7:20.

I guess it really wasn't that bad except I didn't go to bed until 9:30 and I took half a Benadryl so I really needed more uninterrupted sleep.


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## Noelle610

Doesn't sound terrible Bananaz. Bet things improve once you see those teeth pop through. I am kind of dreading teething for us. Sometimes I think Charlotte has started and other times I don't think she has yet (it's hard to tell until you see them... and it seems like they "teeth" forever). Nothing is easy for us, so I'm sure she'll go nuts!


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## MrsPear

Bananaz it doesn't sound like the worst night but if you're already tired from previous nights then you do still feel worn out.

Joni was up 4 times last night which I suppose isn't too bad. I fed her at 10 before I went to bed and she woke at 12, 2, 4 and 6. The fourth time (6am) she was sort of up for the day really but I managed to hold off for half an hour by feeding her in the dark and holding her really still and we got up at 6:40.

I know I'm tired because she just had a nap on me and every time I closed my eyes I thought she was a dog! Then I opened them again and realised it was her, closed them again, thought it was a dog, opened them, it was her... A black puppy too, I'd love a black puppy! You know you're tired when you're beginning to lose touch with reality!

Hahahaha I've got to laugh as I type this she is in her jumperoo having a massive poo and smiling across at me.

x


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## anti

My nights are all still a bit hit and miss. She always has at least two bottles before 5am but last night she was really unsettled... Think it's coz her day time naps weren't as good as they usually are so it knocked everything else out. Still not sure if we have any teeth about to come through, as you say, they seem to 'teeth' for ever!!! Wish there was a way of knowing for sure! This can't last for ever right?!


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## Noelle610

MrsPear, that's kind of funny.

Anti, no, this can't last forever... As soon as I feel like "I can't take it" with one phases, it passes :)

We had a weird night. Charlotte's naps were kind of off again. Her morning nap was a good 90 minutes, but then she had two more naps at only 30 minutes. Like Jessica's Lilly, she NEEDS those long naps, so I think overtired-ness was at play.

She went to sleep at 6:30pm, but was weird. Didn't want to be put down! VERY unusual for her. Then she slept straight through until 3am (dream feed around 9pm) and woke screaming and stayed that way for an HOUR. I tried all of my old tricks - shhushing, rocking, paci, feeding, nothing worked. Finally I gave her Advil, because she seemed to be in pain. She ultimately drifted off. Any thoughts on this? It was really unsettling for me, as it's unusual. It's the second time she's done it this week. She was arching her back and kicking her legs. It reminded me of reflux pain, but I can't imagine that was it since she hadn't eaten in 6 hours. Teething? Separation anxiety?


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## MrsPear

Noelle610 said:


> MrsPear, that's kind of funny.
> 
> Anti, no, this can't last forever... As soon as I feel like "I can't take it" with one phases, it passes :)
> 
> We had a weird night. Charlotte's naps were kind of off again. Her morning nap was a good 90 minutes, but then she had two more naps at only 30 minutes. Like Jessica's Lilly, she NEEDS those long naps, so I think overtired-ness was at play.
> 
> She went to sleep at 6:30pm, but was weird. Didn't want to be put down! VERY unusual for her. Then she slept straight through until 3am (dream feed around 9pm) and woke screaming and stayed that way for an HOUR. I tried all of my old tricks - shhushing, rocking, paci, feeding, nothing worked. Finally I gave her Advil, because she seemed to be in pain. She ultimately drifted off. Any thoughts on this? It was really unsettling for me, as it's unusual. It's the second time she's done it this week. She was arching her back and kicking her legs. It reminded me of reflux pain, but I can't imagine that was it since she hadn't eaten in 6 hours. Teething? Separation anxiety?

I'm no expert but it could definitely be teething. It really hurt when my wisdom teeth came through so I'm sure it must be agony for a baby! To be honest, I blame almost everything on teething :flower: Joni doesn't want to be put down AT ALL some nights, and since she got some teeth recently when it was at its worst, I'm sure it must be that. Yet other nights (e.g. last night), even if she doesn't sleep well I can settle her/feed her and then put her down asleep and she will stay that way for an hour or two. So I'm sure it must be pain in my case.

x


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## bananaz

*MrsPear* - That's too funny! My brain does some really weird things when I'm tired too.

*Noelle* - If she was screaming even as you tried to comfort her I'm guessing separation anxiety isn't the issue, but it could definitely be teething-related.

Last night was mixed. It started off well - she went to sleep around 7pm after only 15 minutes of fussing/playing/rolling around and then she slept until 3:15am (!) at which point I fed her and she went back to sleep pretty quickly.

The crappy part of the night started when she woke up only an hour later at 4:30, the same time she woke last night. She didn't sound upset so I tried to let her sort herself out, but after 30 minutes she was still complaining intermittently so I went in there and nursed her. This was kind of dumb in retrospect since she had just eaten, but I guess I wanted a quick fix so I could go back to sleep. Well, it didn't work and after I put her down she really started crying so I spent 15 minutes or so shush-patting her but it didn't help either. She would quiet down for a minute and then suddenly start fussing and trying to sit up. At that point I decided to give her some Tylenol (getting the syringe in her mouth was like trying to wrestle a bear!) and then I put on her mobile to distract her while the meds kicked in. 

Aaaaand it's now almost 6:10am and she's still awake! And she's just started crying. Ugh :nope:


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## jessicatunnel

last night was good. Not as good as the night before but she only woke up 2 times all night. :D


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## Noelle610

Bananaz, great long stretch, but that sucks about the early morning wakeup! That would drive me NUTS.

Jessica, that's awesome... 2 times!

MrsPear, I hear you - teething must be painful. I called the ped and they wanted me to bring Charlotte back in (to check her ears) but I have just taken so much time off work, UGH. I guess we will see how it goes tonight. Why can't my baby just be normal?!!!!!! I love her to death, but she is just so freakin' sensitive. If it's not one thing, it's another.

Funny story, my company has a mentor program for top performers. I was hooked up with a woman from the west coast and we were chatting on the phone about our kids. She asked how Charlotte was sleeping and I told her the truth. She has a 17 month old who was exactly the same! She had so much sympathy and told me we could discuss ways to work through exhaustion in your career :)


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## Blondy27

don't know if this will help anyone or not really, but my eldest slept through from 12 weeks old and is a great sleeper, and my baby is 13 months and has JUST started sleeping through (was still up twice a night for a bottle and then various other wakings on top until a month ago, when its started dropping gradually), I didn't do anything differently, she just decided now was the time I think, she still has some bad nights occasionally, but I can finally see a light at the end of the tunnel! So basically I guess i'm saying they're all different, but they will sleep eventually :) xxxx


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## anti

Thanks blondy!! It's nice to hear success stories!!


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## Noelle610

Blondy27 said:


> don't know if this will help anyone or not really, but my eldest slept through from 12 weeks old and is a great sleeper, and my baby is 13 months and has JUST started sleeping through (was still up twice a night for a bottle and then various other wakings on top until a month ago, when its started dropping gradually), I didn't do anything differently, she just decided now was the time I think, she still has some bad nights occasionally, but I can finally see a light at the end of the tunnel! So basically I guess i'm saying they're all different, but they will sleep eventually :) xxxx

It does help. It's easy to efel like you're doing something "wrong" when in actuality it's just the baby's personality. I have read all of the books, my daugther goes down awake and self-soothes, doesn't have any crazy sleep associations, etc. She just struggles to stay asleep for some reason!


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## Shadowy Lady

last night wasn't so good! Of course because I was fearing it as we're going away today for the weekend. She went to sleep no problem at 8 pm and woke up at 2:30 am. But then again at 5 am :/ she usually sleeps another 4 hours after her feed so that was unusual.

Well at least hubby is driving so I may nap on our drive to Toronto...


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## Noelle610

Shadowy Lady, hope you get your nap today :)


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## bananaz

Well I officially don't know what's going on with this kid. She was up for 3 hours and she just. wouldn't. sleep.

I tried...

bouncing
rocking
singing
shush-patting
Tylenol
nursing (x 3)
mobile
turning up the heat
diaper change (x 2)
reflux meds

I finally just got her up and played with her for a bit until she got fussy (which didn't take long because she was exhausted!), then did her naptime routine and set her in her crib. She screamed her freaking head off, but I was at the end of my rope and I really had to pee and get something to eat. She cried for almost 15 minutes before quieting down, which I feel horrible about. I don't normally let her scream like that but I just didn't know what to do with her :nope: At least it wasn't her sad or upset cry - she just sounded really, really angry. 

I hope she's able to take a nice long nap and catch up on all the nighttime sleep she missed. I wish I knew what the heck the problem was!


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## bananaz

Shadowy Lady said:


> last night wasn't so good! Of course because I was fearing it as we're going away today for the weekend. She went to sleep no problem at 8 pm and woke up at 2:30 am. But then again at 5 am :/ she usually sleeps another 4 hours after her feed so that was unusual.
> 
> Well at least hubby is driving so I may nap on our drive to Toronto...

Wow, she usually sleeps another 4 hours? I'm so jealous! After Elsie's initial long stretch she almost always only sleeps 2-3 hours. I can understand why 2.5 hours would be frustrating if you're used to 4, though. 

Honestly I'd rather have a bad night before a trip than a good one, because otherwise I panic that the trip is going to mess up her sleep. If it's already messed up there's nothing to worry about! But maybe that's just my weird, neurotic way of thinking about things :haha:


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## Noelle610

So weird Bananaz. Hope she takes a long nap!


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## bananaz

She only slept for 25 minutes. This is going to be a long day.


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## Noelle610

She has to crash sometime!


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## bananaz

How did last night go for everybody?

Another mixed bag here. She went to sleep at 6:45 and first woke up at 12:30. It took me an HOUR of shush-patting to get her back down and then she kept me awake until 2 because she was grumbling so loudly in her sleep. However, after her 3:30am feeding she didnt get up until almost 7! And she might've slept even longer than that if the stupid cat hadn't been meowing at her door :dohh: 

Anyway, I'm just so relieved we didn't have another 4:30 waking that I don't even care about the mess in the middle of the night. After having that happen two nights in a row I was so scared it was going to become a habit!


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## Noelle610

So glad Elsie slept in!

We were up for an hour again - between 4am and 5am. I really don't get it. I even tried feeding, thinking perhaps my ped had missed the boat with the night weaning and that she might be hungry. She refused! 

The long night waking is driving me nuts. She's doing a long stretch of sleep, which is wonderful, but the extra long waking is really hard, especially because DH and I get up at 5:15am for work. If she wakes anytime after 3am, that's our wake up time for the day! I just wish I knew why. If I knew she was teething or something, it would be fine because I'd know it was just a phase that would pass.

I'm wondering if it's a three nap to two nap transition issue. I know that can be hard, because babies just end up being overtired (with two naps too close together and one long stretch of awake time before bed) or undertired (with tree naps and not enough wake time before bed). Today I'm going to experiment a bit to see if I can get Charlotte to take two naps, but spaced out a bit. 

This can't be said enough: I'M TIRED

DH and I are still arguing about what to do. He's ready to let her CIO, but I just can't stop thinking that something is bothering her - like reflux, teeth, gas, whatever.


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## MiniKiwi

Bananaz, that doesn't sound like too bad of a night. Mia has recently begun doing the whole awake in the middle of the night for an hour thing too. They're all the same age, I wonder if something else is going on with their development?

I have had the worst week of my life sleep-wise. Wednesday night Mia woke 8 times, Thursday night 6, Friday night slept 11pm-1am and then awake the entire night until 9:30am when she slept for 3 hours.

Last night she slept 8pm-midnight and then up crying until 5:30 when she went to sleep in the moby for an hour and it's 7am now and she's back in the moby :wacko:

She's got a throat infection and had been seen twice by the doctor now and they said to ride it out with some pain medicine, I think you guys call it tylenol. It's just paracetamol. She started it on Friday, I wonder if it could be contributing to the terrible sleep..Is that possible?

It's pure hell.

Noelle, I know how you feel. OH is also keen to sleep train her and says everyone lets their LO's CIO. I asked at my baby group how everyone's LO's do and they self settle and were left to CIO from a very young age. One of them from 6 days. It's so weird how on BnB it's like a crime but in 'real life' it seems to be the done thing. I can't do it anyway. I'm just hoping this infection is what's causing the reeeeally bad sleep and it's not just how things are going to be from now on. Oh well, we'll get through it anyway. Hope you're all well :)


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## bananaz

*Noelle* - I'm sorry you're dealing with the weird long wakings too. I think MiniKiwi might be right that maybe it's just a developmental thing? I know that having too long of an awake period before bed definitely has negative effects on Elsie's sleep. Right now she seems to sleep best when she has two longer naps in the morning and early afternoon and then has a quick 20-minute nap in the car a couple hours before bedtime, but of course cramming that last nap in isn't always easy!

I also am hesitant to jump to CIO right now, though I'm not against CC and I've used it briefly when I thought it was needed. I think a lot of people view CIO as a last resort cure-all, but my understanding is that it really only works if the cause of the wakings is the baby's inability to self-soothe and transition through sleep cycles due to sleep associations. If the problem is teething or reflux or something else along those lines I don't think just letting them cry is going to help. 

*MiniKiwi* - Arghh, up for five and a half hours in the middle of the night? I'm so, so sorry :hugs: Hopefully once she gets over her illness she'll start sleeping better quickly. Maybe try ibuprofen instead of paracetamol? Ibuprofen helps to bring down inflammation, which would probably be helpful for a throat infection. I hope she feels better soon


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## aliss

Noelle (+ others), you have to do what is right for your situation. I *personally* did not do it and waited 23 months (yes, it might be that long for some of you I'm afraid). I think in the long run, for US, it paid off because I was really worried about the fear/sleep association (I can't help but wonder if CIO works short-term but when you deal with toddler nightmares/terrors, then what?). But, it is your choice, and you are the one who is up all night so it's very easy for people to say what you SHOULD do.


Oh mine was up every 45 minutes last night or worse YEESH but I'm not allowed to complain yet, he's too young :rofl:


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## anti

Ashlynn also does 1 hour awake time at 5am! It's gotta be a developmental thing... All the babies are the same age!! My OH gets up and I bring her in bed with me so when she goes back to sleep I can sleep till she gets up at around 8. My OH does nothing at night so it's only fair I get to sleep in!!!


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## MrsPear

MiniKiwi, that sounds AWFUL. Joni might sleep badly, but she is generally tired throughout the night and I can get her to sleep, it's just keeping her that way that's the problem. Being up up all night (if that makes sense) is a whole other ball game, you have my full respect for the hours you are putting in the the middle of the night. i hope that it gets better for you soon.

Joni is generally waking every 2 hours for a feed at the moment. I hate it, but it is bearable. At least I get to sleep in between each time. At the moment I am not having ANY trouble sleeping except at the start of the night when I find it hard to switch off. The minute my head hits the pillow I'm away. I think maybe because Joni is actually being quite predictable- yes she wakes a lot but it is at least 2 weeks since she was up every 20 minutes (except maybe at the end of the night). I never would have thought that I would be pleased she was waking every 2 hours (and I do think she is hungry because she seems eager to feed) but if it's consistent at least I know where I am with it.

x


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## Noelle610

MiniKiwi, I am SO sorry. Here I am complaining about waking up at 3am when you've been up all night this week. Poor Mia, she must feel awful. I don't think her medication is causing the waking, but I do think it's likely not strong enough. I agree with Bananaz recommendation. I would call your doctor if she continues sleeping like this. It's not only inconvenient for you, but Mia needs more sleep to recover from her infection. I know that babies are sometimes given benadryl (diphenhydramine) and that can help them sleep when they are very ill.

MrsPear - There IS something to be said for consistency!

Anti - I agree that it's possibly developmental. My LO has been trying to crawl and babbling a ton! I was telling a colleague about this pattern (she has a two year old) and she remarked, "Sounds like a wonder week!". 

Bananaz + Aliss, on sleep training, it's interesting. I'm really not against it. EVERYONE (and I mean everyone) where I am does it and usually at 4 months. I don't think it's necessarily detrimental to a child's mental health, but I don't think it's a quick fix. I think it can work for a very specific problem - serious sleep associations. 

There was a girl on here who had a baby that woke every 90 minutes for months and had to be rocked back to sleep (for up to an hour each time). She did CC and in three nights he was STTN. He obviously didn't know how to self-soothe and had to "learn" to sleep without the rocking. But that's not really our issue. 

My DH is influenced by these stories you read about parents that do CIO for three nights and baby is STTN every night from that point on. I just don't think that's the way it works - there's always teething, illness, developmental milestones. In all fairness, my husband is a wonderful guy. My PND is so much worse when I'm sleep deprived and I think he just wants me to be happy. I'm seeing my midwife this week, so I'm hoping that will help.

What makes me really mad is the assumption of those around me that I'm doing something wrong. I've had a few moms (like DH's best friend) say to me, "You're just a first time mom and afraid to let your baby cry. You have to stop responding to her every fuss". As all of you know on this board, I DON'T do that. I just want to yell, "YOUR BABY DOESN'T SLEEP 12 HOURS STRAIGHT BECAUSE YOU ARE SUPER MOM. YOU GOT LUCKY". Anyway, I guess I shouldn't worry about being judged, but I do.

Aliss, you're allowed to complain :) I created a thread called "8 Week Old Baby Not Sleeping Through the Night" at one point. I just DIDN'T KNOW that wasn't normal, since two of my close friends had babies that STTN at 6 weeks old. Of course I got ripped apart, and rightfully so. But I won't tell you not to complain LOL!


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## jessicatunnel

I JUST noticed all of our babies are around the same age! 
Minikiwi, i have so much respect for you, that sounds like a terrible night. :( idk how you did it, i probably would have snapped!!

As for sleep training, I'm not against it whatsoever', but for our household its just not right for us. My whole family has done CIO and have told me multiple times to do it. My best friend did it to her baby at six weeks, which I was actually pretty against, but kept my mouth shut. Anyway, im fine with anyone who wants to do it, we just decide not to.

And for sleeping through, my whole life my family has told me babies should be sleeping through by 3 months so when three months came and lilly wasn't sleeping through i thought i was doing something wrong, my family is still in shock that shes still not sleeping through. But allllllll babies are different and all sleep through at different times. 

Our night was actually really good. She went to bed at 8, because we went out for dinner, and she slept until 4am, 8 hours!! That's the longest she's ever slept. I fed her at 4 and she went back down at 415 and slept until 8am. Her sleep is definitely improving, I just hope it stays this way!


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## stephj25

hey guys, I'm back again!! I'm sorry for everyone that has had several rubbish nights sleep - and :hugs: to MiniKiwi.

My LO is back to waking every 2 hours again!! :wacko: I'm so confused, I thought it was supposed to stop at 29 weeks, my LO is now 30 weeks...

Something good has come out of her waking so much though - Olivia was crying for 10mins yesterday and fell asleep before I went up to her (usually wait 15mins) and she was sleeping on her tummy for the first time ever!! 

Has anyone else's LO dropped a nap?? Olivia kept fighting the 3rd nap (4pm) and fussing through it so I stopped putting her down. She now naps 11-12pm & 2-4pm. She has only dropped it in the last few days so I wondered if it is having an effect on her sleep??


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## Noelle610

Jessica, what a GREAT night! I actually remember a lot of you ladies from 3rd tri.... I'm sorry we all are coming together again over lack of sleep.

Steph, Charlotte is trying to drop that third nap and I just don't get how I'm supposed to go about it. She napped today from 9am-10:30am and 1:00pm-2:30pm. 3 hours of daytime sleep is plenty, but her bedtime is around 6:30pm. 4 hours seem to long for her to be up! I tried putting her down for a nap at 4:30pm, just thinking she could go to bed a bit later, but she wasn't having it. We ultimately ended up putting her down around 5:45pm, because she was sooo cranky. Wonder what this will mean for tonight.


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## bananaz

Noelle610 said:


> Steph, Charlotte is trying to drop that third nap and I just don't get how I'm supposed to go about it. She napped today from 9am-10:30am and 1:00pm-2:30pm. 3 hours of daytime sleep is plenty, but her bedtime is around 6:30pm. 4 hours lol seem to long for her to be up! I tried putting her down for a nap at 4:30pm, just thinking she could go to bed a bit later, but she wasn't having it. We ultimately ended up putting her down around 5:45pm, because she was sooo cranky. Wonder what this will mean for tonight.

We're having the exact same issue, timing and all. Sometimes I solve it by pushing her second nap a little later or by lulling her to sleep in the car around 4, but other times she just ends up being awake for 4+ hours and it sucks. I'm guessing that within the next few weeks their max awake times will increase and the issue will sort itself out, but these transitional periods are so difficult! 

And Jessica, that sounds like an awesome night :) So happy for you!


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## MiniKiwi

Awww thanks for all the sympathy! Nobody I know in real life actually understands so I can't whinge to anyone about it! It's weird how positive I'm feeling about it though, I think it's cause I know she's feeling worse than me and just needs my help.

I phoned the doctor and healthline and they think she's fine and we just have to wait it out and that paracetamol is all she needs but thanks so much for the suggestion, bananaz. I'm so nervous for tonight, I feel physically ill with tiredness and she's slept on and off for a lot of today. Oh no!!

Jessica, I'm so happy for you! What an awesome night, you really deserve this. I remember reading about Lilly's numerous night wakings and thinking I'd just go crazy.

Mrspear! I actually lol'd at that you never thought you'd be pleased with 2 hourly wakings! That's just how I feel. I missed that your LO was waking every 20 minutes.. I usually only pop into this thread when I really can't handle it all :blush: Every 20 minutes is so cruel, her actually going to sleep gives you a little bit of hope that she might stay asleep and you can just relax for a moment and then it's snatched away from you! Brutal. I'm glad it's getting better at least :hugs:

Aw Stephj I hope you get some longer stretches soon. It's just so rough being woken from your deep sleeps. I find waking after 2 hours particularly hard


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## jessicatunnel

Another good night here. She went to bed at seven and stayed asleep. I went to check on her at ten, and she was still asleep, but I bumped her dresser (I really need to move that!) and it woke her up. But she went back to sleep five minutes later so I don't count that. She then slept until 4am and woke up for a bottle. Went back to sleep and slept until 745am where she woke up for the day. 

It looks like we're down to one waking a night now. I'm cool with that. :D


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## Noelle610

That's amazing Jessica!!!


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## bananaz

jessicatunnel said:


> Another good night here. She went to bed at seven and stayed asleep. I went to check on her at ten, and she was still asleep, but I bumped her dresser (I really need to move that!) and it woke her up. But she went back to sleep five minutes later so I don't count that. She then slept until 4am and woke up for a bottle. Went back to sleep and slept until 745am where she woke up for the day.
> 
> It looks like we're down to one waking a night now. I'm cool with that. :D

How awesome is that! And just a few weeks ago weren't you guys up 6+ times a night? It's crazy how fast things can change! 

We had a pretty good night too. I put LO down happy and awake a little after 7pm and she fell asleep on her own within about 10 minutes (I'm still in awe over this whole self-settling thing at bedtime. Hopefully I can get her to do it for naps soon...) She woke for a feed at 3am then went straight down until 5:15am. I nursed her again and it seemed like she was going to go back to sleep but then around 5:45 she started crying and when I went in to soothe her I noticed she had a massive dirty diaper that had leaked onto her legs. I knew there was no way I'd be able to get her back down after changing her so at that point I admitted defeat and just got her up for the day.

It seems like every night she either has a long stretch of sleep and then gets up early, or she has shorter stretches of sleep but gets up at a reasonable time. I know I'm getting picky now, but would sleeping 6+ hours in a row and then staying down until at least 6am be too much to ask for? :coffee:


----------



## aliss

Noelle610 said:


> What makes me really mad is the assumption of those around me that I'm doing something wrong. I've had a few moms (like DH's best friend) say to me, "You're just a first time mom and afraid to let your baby cry. You have to stop responding to her every fuss". As all of you know on this board, I DON'T do that. I just want to yell, "YOUR BABY DOESN'T SLEEP 12 HOURS STRAIGHT BECAUSE YOU ARE SUPER MOM. YOU GOT LUCKY". Anyway, I guess I shouldn't worry about being judged, but I do.

LOL!!

I always laugh how people think that they "made" the baby that way (usually by rattling off their 6pm bath/bed bottle routine). Get over yourselves, they are made that way :rofl: I felt like knocking door to door with #2 was born to say "SEE, SEE, I'M NOT CRAZY". 

Of course I say that during a wonder week :rofl: But still it's no big deal, he is up every 2 hours but BFs right back down to sleep. It's the getting up... staying up & screaming for an hour ... that kills me!! And you girls too! I'm sure!

Oh bananaz, the 5am sign of defeat sure does suck, especially in the winter. Boo for winter when it feels like ages until the sun comes out and we feel human.


----------



## MiniKiwi

Thought I'd update you guys. Last night my mini got worse and OH and I took her to the ER. After lots of worrying tests and tears, they found LO has a uti, maybe caused by a kidney problem :cry:

I can't help but feel a little angry at the two doctors and two nurses who I spoke with who kept telling me she was fine. I think I come across as one of those crazy, overly worried mums - I guess I am but they didn't take me seriously :(

The hospital said we should be out on Thursday or Friday. I'm so upset she was in such awful pain for so long and all she had was paracetamol for it.

Jessica and bananaz - congrats on another awesome night. I can't wait to be back to 1 or 2 wakings, I'm sure Mia can't wait either


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## jessicatunnel

MiniKiwi said:


> Thought I'd update you guys. Last night my mini got worse and OH and I took her to the ER. After lots of worrying tests and tears, they found LO has a uti, maybe caused by a kidney problem :cry:
> 
> I can't help but feel a little angry at the two doctors and two nurses who I spoke with who kept telling me she was fine. I think I come across as one of those crazy, overly worried mums - I guess I am but they didn't take me seriously :(
> 
> The hospital said we should be out on Thursday or Friday. I'm so upset she was in such awful pain for so long and all she had was paracetamol for it.
> 
> Jessica and bananaz - congrats on another awesome night. I can't wait to be back to 1 or 2 wakings, I'm sure Mia can't wait either

I'm angry for you! It's frustrating when doctors don't thoroughly check your baby and just assume everything is fine with them. Poor little mia. I feel so sorry for that sweet baby. I hope they help your little girl and she starts feeling better soon. :(


----------



## bananaz

MiniKiwi said:


> Thought I'd update you guys. Last night my mini got worse and OH and I took her to the ER. After lots of worrying tests and tears, they found LO has a uti, maybe caused by a kidney problem :cry:
> 
> I can't help but feel a little angry at the two doctors and two nurses who I spoke with who kept telling me she was fine. I think I come across as one of those crazy, overly worried mums - I guess I am but they didn't take me seriously :(
> 
> The hospital said we should be out on Thursday or Friday. I'm so upset she was in such awful pain for so long and all she had was paracetamol for it.

Oh my gosh, big hugs to both of you! UTIs have always been one of my biggest fears for LO because they're missed so often. I hope Mini is feeling better now that she's getting proper treatment and that her hospital stay is brief. :hugs:


----------



## MiniKiwi

Thanks. Bananaz, you don't need to worry cause you already know about them. I had no idea and all it would have taken is for the first doctor to ask for a urine sample. Apparently her throat was red though so put the fever down to that. Any unexplained fevers and you should get a urine test. The hospital was almost going to let us go home last night until one dr asked for a urine sample before we go. God, I feel so awful for my LO and probably won't be able to trust her doctor again


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## MrsPear

MiniKiwi I am annoyed for you. You kept asking them if there was more you could do and they kept giving you paracetamol- I know parents can be neurotic but if they had run a simple test they could have found it a lot sooner. It's hardly rocket science to ask for a urine test and UTIs are very common in all age ranges. Get well soon little one xxx


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## Noelle610

MiniKiwi, I am SO sorry! Poor Mia and poor you. The only "good" thing about this is now you know what is wrong and hopefully things will improve once it begins to clear up.

We're still struggling with the long early morning waking. Charlotte is almost sleep-crying and not really awake, and I'm further convinced it's teething. I've been up since 3am (it's 5:15am here) and she's finally gone back to sleep, but I need to get up for work. I feel utterly awful today. I've been having really bad back pain and I think it's from lack of sleep. I wonder how long this can go on for. 

I don't mind working - it fact, I'm glad I get some adult time. Even when I'm sleep deprived I usually find it helpful to get up, get dressed and make myself look nice, and have a definitive start and end to the day. But for some reason that has all gone out the window recently. I feel so exhausted that it's a huge chore to interact with anyone.


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## MrsPear

Oh Noelle you sound really down today I hope you get some sleep soon. I understand the aches and pains, I get that too.

Joni has been really grumpy today I wonder if she is coming down with something. Last night she slept really well though- from 2am to 6.30am which she rarely rarely does. BUT I don't think the baby monitor was working as when OH went and said good morning to her I didn't hear it on the monitor. Hmmmm, I hope she wasn't crying in the night. I think I would hear if she screamed but she is on a different floor to us with the doors closed so I definitely wouldn't hear crying at a normal volume. But anyway, I got some sleep and she seemed fine in the morning so I'm not too worried about it x


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## Noelle610

Glad you got some rest MrsPear

I am pretty down today. I just can't stop feeling like I'd be okay if only I could get a few solid hours of rest. The probably is really not my LO right now, but me. If I was sleeping soundly prior to her waking, I think I could cope, but my postpartum insomnia is terrible.

I'm going to see my midwife tomorrow in hopes they can help, but I fear they'll just suggest I take melatonin or refer me elsewhere. I'm almost 7 months postpartum and I really need to get my mental health in check. I hope they take me seriously.


----------



## mrsbeano

Noelle610 said:


> Glad you got some rest MrsPear
> 
> I am pretty down today. I just can't stop feeling like I'd be okay if only I could get a few solid hours of rest. The probably is really not my LO right now, but me. If I was sleeping soundly prior to her waking, I think I could cope, but my postpartum insomnia is terrible.
> 
> I'm going to see my midwife tomorrow in hopes they can help, but I fear they'll just suggest I take melatonin or refer me elsewhere. I'm almost 7 months postpartum and I really need to get my mental health in check. I hope they take me seriously.

They will take you seriously. I think its just the anxiety of not knowing what the night ahead will be like. If Quinn has a run of bad nights I'm the same and quite frankly noone can cope on a couple of hours sleep, especially when they are working long hour. 

How do you work it with your DH? Do you do one night each? :hugs:


----------



## Noelle610

mrsbeano said:


> Noelle610 said:
> 
> 
> Glad you got some rest MrsPear
> 
> I am pretty down today. I just can't stop feeling like I'd be okay if only I could get a few solid hours of rest. The probably is really not my LO right now, but me. If I was sleeping soundly prior to her waking, I think I could cope, but my postpartum insomnia is terrible.
> 
> I'm going to see my midwife tomorrow in hopes they can help, but I fear they'll just suggest I take melatonin or refer me elsewhere. I'm almost 7 months postpartum and I really need to get my mental health in check. I hope they take me seriously.
> 
> They will take you seriously. I think its just the anxiety of not knowing what the night ahead will be like. If Quinn has a run of bad nights I'm the same and quite frankly noone can cope on a couple of hours sleep, especially when they are working long hour.
> 
> How do you work it with your DH? Do you do one night each? :hugs:Click to expand...

Thanks MrsBeano, I do hope so. I can barely cope at work today - just trying to hold it together and not cry. I have an office-mate, so it's really not an option. Our holiday party is tonight and the thought of attending an event that begins at 6pm is just unbearable right now.

My DH is wonderful. He's worried about me. We don't have a guestroom and I can hear Charlotte over earplugs, so he's suggested I spend a night at the neighbors' (we're good friends). I just feel like such a crappy mother for even considering it.


----------



## Noelle610

I really appreciate everyone's support. I know I must sound like a HUGE drama queen. I know others have it much worse than me, so I don't mean to be throwing myself a pity party. It's just that when I feel depressed like this I feel like it will never end. I can't imagine ever sleeping a full night or Charlotte ever growing up. I just feel like I'll be stuck in this black hole forever.


----------



## bananaz

*Noelle* - Big hugs to you. I think everyone here can relate, and you don't sound like a drama queen at all! I hope the midwife is able to help you, sleep really is so so important to a person's overall well being.

*MrsPear* - I'm glad Joni slept better last night! About the baby monitor thing, how far away is she from you at night? Unless she's on the other side of the house on a different floor I'm sure you would hear her if she needed you, with or without the monitor.


I was totally convinced last night was going to be awful because she only took two 20-minute naps yesterday but it was actually one of her best nights in a long time. She went to sleep at 6:30pm, woke for a quick feed at 3am, and then went right back down until 6am! :happydance: And thanks to melatonin and deep breathing I actually managed to get some sleep too, which is shocking considering how stressed I am about the court thing today. Anyway, it seems the sleep gods are smiling on us here, hopefully they will be kind to the rest of you too.


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## Noelle610

Go Elsie!


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## mrsbeano

Totally NOT a drama queen. Just a very tired Mummy. I would take the opportunity for a night off whenever it came my way. For what its worth I have thought many many times I am suffering from PPD and then after a good night's rest I feel completely and utterly normal. I just don't have a laid back personality and am not able to go with the flow so when he isn't doing what he should be, I cope really badly. Big hugs, update us on your appointment tomorrow. 

On a side note, who has a Christmas party on a Monday. They must be a more sober affair than mine (free bar, wahoo!)

Bananaz - glad your night was better than anticipated!


----------



## Noelle610

mrsbeano said:


> Totally NOT a drama queen. Just a very tired Mummy. I would take the opportunity for a night off whenever it came my way. For what its worth I have thought many many times I am suffering from PPD and then after a good night's rest I feel completely and utterly normal. I just don't have a laid back personality and am not able to go with the flow so when he isn't doing what he should be, I cope really badly. Big hugs, update us on your appointment tomorrow.
> 
> On a side note, who has a Christmas party on a Monday. They must be a more sober affair than mine (free bar, wahoo!)
> 
> Bananaz - glad your night was better than anticipated!

Same here. I don't have a flexible personality at all. I've gotten better over the years, but having something that's a basic human need - sleep - being totally unpredictable makes my anxiety shoot throug the roof.

Re: Monday holiday party - I work in event planning, so we have all of our parties when no one else does :)


----------



## MiniKiwi

Aww Noelle :hugs: I'm so sorry you're having a rough time. I know what the anxiety is like but I couldn't cope with insomnia on top of that. Don't feel bad about a night at the neighbours or away so you can get a rest. You'll be a better mum that way.

Do you really have to go to the work party? Can't you make a little lie? Charlotte is teething and needs you tonight? Or something. I could not be bothered with a work party if I was feeling like you are

Do make sure you see a doctor sooner rather than later. I hope they can offer you something that helps with the sleep, you must be exhausted! Charlotte will sleep all night one day, and so will you! :hugs:


----------



## Noelle610

MiniKiwi said:


> Aww Noelle :hugs: I'm so sorry you're having a rough time. I know what the anxiety is like but I couldn't cope with insomnia on top of that. Don't feel bad about a night at the neighbours or away so you can get a rest. You'll be a better mum that way.
> 
> Do you really have to go to the work party? Can't you make a little lie? Charlotte is teething and needs you tonight? Or something. I could not be bothered with a work party if I was feeling like you are
> 
> Do make sure you see a doctor sooner rather than later. I hope they can offer you something that helps with the sleep, you must be exhausted! Charlotte will sleep all night one day, and so will you! :hugs:

Thank you :) 

I'm debating between a little lie and staying only 30 minutes. I tried to get into the doctor today with no success. My appointment is tomorrow, so I'll let you girls know how it goes!


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## Shadowy Lady

hi guys! I've been away but I'm back home now. Just wanted to say I'm pretty sure Sofia's going through the dreaded 4 months sleep regression :/ I've barely slept the last 3 nights as she was up 4-5 time each night :( The last day in Toronto was awful. We had to attend a family brunch for DH aunts and them to meet Sofia and I looked like %$^#$%! I had to fight tears of sleep deprivation all through the meal :'(

I'm gonna start reading now to see what you all been up to...hopefully all had better nights than me


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## Shadowy Lady

Minikiwi - omg hunnie I'm so sorry:hugs: It's so awful when doctors missread symptoms but worse coz the patient is a baby. Hope Mia feels better soon and you get some rest too. Btw I never told you but I love the name Mia. That's almost what we had picked for Sofia:flower:

Bananaz and Jessica - yay! So glad both of you ladies are having great nights. Send some sleep to my regressing baby:haha:

Noelle - You're totally not a drama queen. I'm also dealing with post partum insomina and it's SO hard! Melontanin doesn't work and so often I only get like 1-2 hours of sleep all night. I spend so many days being afraid of night time....afraid of not sleeping...worrying that I might go crazy in the end :cry:

Glad to hear you DH is great help though. Def take on the offer and recharge for a night at least. I do this too at home. We have a huge bungalow though so I just sleep in the basement with earplugs on my nights off. I find even one night of say 6-hour straight sleep does wonders for me:thumbup:


----------



## Noelle610

Shadowy Lady said:


> hi guys! I've been away but I'm back home now. Just wanted to say I'm pretty sure Sofia's going through the dreaded 4 months sleep regression :/ I've barely slept the last 3 nights as she was up 4-5 time each night :( The last day in Toronto was awful. We had to attend a family brunch for DH aunts and them to meet Sofia and I looked like %$^#$%! I had to fight tears of sleep deprivation all through the meal :'(
> 
> I'm gonna start reading now to see what you all been up to...hopefully all had better nights than me

Oh no Shadowy Lady! I am so sorry. Perhaps it's not the regression, but just difficulty settling into her normal routine when traveling? Fingers crossed that is the case.


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## MiniKiwi

Noelle - 30 minutes or a little lie sounds good. Surely everyone will understand anyway, you've got a small baby!

Shadowy - thank you and Sofia was in our top 3 names :)


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## bananaz

*Shadowy* - I'm sorry the past few nights have been so difficult :( I agree with Noelle though, it could definitely just be her settling back in after the trip. I hope things improve quickly for you.


Our night was not so great. She went to sleep at 7pm and woke at 1am. I spent 20 minutes trying to soothe her but I was exhausted and had a headache so I finally just gave up and fed her. Then she went back to sleep until 4:30, at which point I ran in there and shoved a boob in her mouth as quickly as possible to keep her from waking up all the way. It didn't matter, though, she was up for the day :nope: I was also having horrible hot flashes all night, so that didn't help either.

I really wish I knew WTF was causing these 4:30 wakings. The only thing I can figure is that her bedtime is too late, so I think from now on I'm going to try and make a point of getting her in bed before 6:30pm no matter what. Getting up at 4:30 is just not acceptable!


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## jessicatunnel

Bananaz, wouldn't putting her to bed earlier make her wake earlier? 

Our night was pretty good. She REFUSED to go to bed at her bedtime, 630, and I tried on and off for two hours to get her to bed! I didn't try to force her though because I knew that would cause unnecessary stress on both of us. I would take her upstairs, try to feed her, rock her, sing to her, whatever I could and if she didn't want it I would bring her back downstairs and try 30 minutes later. I mean she was WIDE awake from 630 to 830. At 830 I could tell she was just shattered, so I tried again and she went to sleep within five minutes of me rocking her and singing to her. She then woke up at 2am for a bottle, and slept until 8am where she was up for the day.


----------



## bananaz

jessicatunnel said:


> Bananaz, wouldn't putting her to bed earlier make her wake earlier?

You would think so, but I haven't found that to be the case! Generally she sleeps later if I manage to get her down a little earlier. I'm thinking maybe she gets overtired going to bed at 7? Of course her early wakeup time used to be 6, not 4:30, so it wasn't as big a deal before. 



jessicatunnel said:


> Our night was pretty good. She REFUSED to go to bed at her bedtime, 630, and I tried on and off for two hours to get her to bed! I didn't try to force her though because I knew that would cause unnecessary stress on both of us. I would take her upstairs, try to feed her, rock her, sing to her, whatever I could and if she didn't want it I would bring her back downstairs and try 30 minutes later. I mean she was WIDE awake from 630 to 830. At 830 I could tell she was just shattered, so I tried again and she went to sleep within five minutes of me rocking her and singing to her. She then woke up at 2am for a bottle, and slept until 8am where she was up for the day.

Bedtime drama aside, that sounds like a pretty decent night! Any idea what was keeping her up though?


----------



## Noelle610

Jessica, so glad things are going well for you. You deserve it!

Yuck to 4:30am wakeup calls Bananaz. What is with that? I agree with trying to put her to bed early.

Our night wasn't so hot. We were awake from 2:30am to 4:00am. No idea why, again! Ah well. 

I went to see my midwife today and they perscribed me Zoloft and some birth control. They felt the anti-depressent combined with the birth control (apparently postpartum insomnia can be partially hormonal) would help. Fingers crossed.


----------



## Noelle610

Oh I wanted to add that I posted on another forum that deals specifically with infant sleep regarding Charlotte's schedule, looking for a solution to her long night waking. A bunch of the posters pointed toward her being overtired, since her last nap often ends at 2pm. I know being awake for 4+ hours isn't good, but I'm not sure what I should do since daycare pickup is at 5pm (they were suggested I put her to bed at that time!). The only thing I can think of is asking her daycare provider to stretch the time between her first and second nap, because getting a third nap in is near impossible these days. Not sure what you ladies think.

I guess it's possible they are right, but at the same time I wonder if I'm overcomplicating this. Plenty of babies sleep well without rigid schedules!


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## MrsPear

Jessica it sounds like you're on a roll at the moment! Everyone else...I hope you all get a better sleep tonight. Sounds like you need it.

I'm having a stressed and bad day. Joni just won't nap. I don't know if I'm expecting too many naps from her? Maybe I'm just getting it wrong. She was up at 7:00, 45minute nap at 9:15, 30 minute nap at 12:00 and about 10 minutes at 3:30. It doesn't seem like very much to me? I just rocked her/sang to her/patted her/shhhed her for about 50 minutes but I don't know what I'm getting wrong? She continually starts to droop like she's falling asleep and then BANG! She's awake again.

Last night I think she was only up 3 times, which is not bad. Each time she was up about 45 minutes though. I shouldn't complain, but I just feel so down today. I really feel like I have no idea what she wants, needs or how to do any of it. I don't know when she's tired, I don't know why she wakes in the night, I don't know how to make her happy, I don't know anything. 

I think this should be called the, "I feel down, please say nice things to me" thread because we have nearly all been feeling low the past few days it seems to me :hugs:


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## Noelle610

Mrs. Pear, Big hugs. I know what it's like to feel like you just can't put the puzzle together. If it was as easy as "have a bedtime routine" or "let her cry for five minutes", none of us would be bonding together on lack of sleep!

I agree that it doesn't seem like Joni is napping enough. Do you think she's overtired and perhaps you're waiting too long to put her down? Until recently my LO could only be awake 1.5 hours before that morning nap and then she would sleep every two hours through the rest of the day. So if she woke at 7 and slept for an average of 45 minutes, her naps would be 8:30, 11:15, 3:15 or something like that. Worth a try?


----------



## bananaz

Noelle610 said:


> Oh I wanted to add that I posted on another forum that deals specifically with infant sleep regarding Charlotte's schedule, looking for a solution to her long night waking. A bunch of the posters pointed toward her being overtired, since her last nap often ends at 2pm. I know being awake for 4+ hours isn't good, but I'm not sure what I should do since daycare pickup is at 5pm (they were suggested I put her to bed at that time!). The only thing I can think of is asking her daycare provider to stretch the time between her first and second nap, because getting a third nap in is near impossible these days. Not sure what you ladies think.
> 
> I guess it's possible they are right, but at the same time I wonder if I'm overcomplicating this. Plenty of babies sleep well without rigid schedules!

Plenty of babies aren't our babies :haha: I think trying to space out the naps is probably your best bet. A 5pm bedtime sounds kind of ridiculous, even if you weren't working.


----------



## Noelle610

bananaz said:


> Noelle610 said:
> 
> 
> Oh I wanted to add that I posted on another forum that deals specifically with infant sleep regarding Charlotte's schedule, looking for a solution to her long night waking. A bunch of the posters pointed toward her being overtired, since her last nap often ends at 2pm. I know being awake for 4+ hours isn't good, but I'm not sure what I should do since daycare pickup is at 5pm (they were suggested I put her to bed at that time!). The only thing I can think of is asking her daycare provider to stretch the time between her first and second nap, because getting a third nap in is near impossible these days. Not sure what you ladies think.
> 
> I guess it's possible they are right, but at the same time I wonder if I'm overcomplicating this. Plenty of babies sleep well without rigid schedules!
> 
> Plenty of babies aren't our babies :haha: I think trying to space out the naps is probably your best bet. A 5pm bedtime sounds kind of ridiculous, even if you weren't working.Click to expand...

Right?! OK, spacing out naps it is. She usually wake around 6:30am for the day. If she takes her first nap at 9am (until 10am or 10:30am), I'd ask her daycare provider to wait until 1:30pm to put her down instead of 12:30pm. Hopefully if she naps until 3pm or 3:30pm, we'll have less overtired-ness to deal with.


----------



## bananaz

MrsPear said:


> I think this should be called the, "I feel down, please say nice things to me" thread because we have nearly all been feeling low the past few days it seems to me :hugs:

LOL You are totally right! 

And I agree, that doesn't sound like enough naptime. My suggestion was actually going to be the opposite of Noelle's, which was to try keeping her up a little longer between naps. In any case, I think playing around with her awake time would probably be a good idea; if nothing else it will make you feel productive while her sleep sorts itself out on its own ;)

Honestly at least for my own kid I think that most of her sleep habits are determined by factors that I can neither understand nor control. I have spent SO MUCH time reading and researching and experimenting that if it were really just a matter of finding the right set of conditions I'm sure she would be a perfect sleeper by now. Obviously there are some things I can do to encourage good sleep habits but after a certain point I think all of the trial and error is really for my own benefit, just so I can think I'm making some kind of progress. It reminds me of the Voltaire quote "the role of the physician is to entertain his patient while nature takes it course."

Or maybe I'm just feeling extra pessimistic today :haha:


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## Noelle610

bananaz said:


> Honestly at least for my own kid I think that most of her sleep habits are determined by factors that I can neither understand nor control. I have spent SO MUCH time reading and researching and experimenting that if it were really just a matter of finding the right set of conditions I'm sure she would be a perfect sleeper by now. Obviously there are some things I can do to encourage good sleep habits but after a certain point I think all of the trial and error is really for my own benefit, just so I can think I'm making some kind of progress. It reminds me of the Voltaire quote "the role of the physician is to entertain his patient while nature takes it course."
> 
> Or maybe I'm just feeling extra pessimistic today :haha:

Yes, THIS!


----------



## MrsPear

Thanks guys, you do make me feel better! I really don't know if I should space naps out or get them in sooner. A lot of the time though she does have a nap 45mins or 1hr after waking, but the past couple of weeks she has seemed to want to stretch it a bit. Maybe I could try and drag it back a bit sooner. 

In the afternoon she does sometimes have 30-45 minutes of 'quiet time' in my arms not sleeping but sort of relaxing and smiling a bit whilst I just rock (got a rocking chair) and ignore her. Then when she starts to get bored and tetchy I just count it as a nap, and it does seem to refresh her. Then other days like today, she just cries and fights and her eyes droop and then she wakes and cries more, so that's when I get stressed. I admit I don't really know how to get her to sleep. 

Don't know if she's just quite hard to get to sleep or if I'm not doing it right. I do rock, I turn the lights down, I turn the tv off, I shhh her, I try singing, I try putting her seahorse thing on, I try holding her close and just cuddling her when she cries, I try turning her outwards so she doesn't feel cooped up to get her to stop crying, I try putting her down in case I'm overstimulating her, I try putting her in the sling...obviously not all of them on the same nap but over time I try everything! And then I try to be consistent too haha. 

I think Aliss said something ages ago (might be on a different thread) which is, you can spend a long time beating yourself up over 'doing it wrong' and trying to get it right, or you can just accept that it isn't happening right now and not get too worked up even trying to find out why, just patiently wait...so I wonder whether that's the avenue I should be going down! xx


----------



## eulmh82

aliss said:


> So sorry... but I remember 6 months was another doozy :( It did pass.

Agree - 6 mths for us was horrendous - I was ready to leave OH - LO was being weaned and feeding loads! he then got a tummy bug and was feeding massively throughout the night as well. It did pass - which i know you;re sick of hearing. I know toher mums who said 6 mths was bad as well


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## Noelle610

eulmh82 said:


> aliss said:
> 
> 
> So sorry... but I remember 6 months was another doozy :( It did pass.
> 
> Agree - 6 mths for us was horrendous - I was ready to leave OH - LO was being weaned and feeding loads! he then got a tummy bug and was feeding massively throughout the night as well. It did pass - which i know you;re sick of hearing. I know toher mums who said 6 mths was bad as wellClick to expand...

I'm not sure it can ever be said enough on this thread! Thanks for reminding us :)


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## MiniKiwi

Mrspear :hugs:

Noelle - those middle of the night, long wakings are just brutal! We have so far spent three nights in hospital, first night no sleep, second night she went to sleep at 11pm, woke at 12,1,2 and at 4 another kid in the room woke her up... for the day :coffee:

After seeing me walk her to sleep for 2 hours before 11pm and then back to sleep for 2.5 hours after the 4am waking, the nurses moved me to my own room!

Last night she slept 11-4:30 then 5am til 7:45! I feel AMAZING :D

I'm so proud of how happy she's been here, smiling for everyone and this morning I noticed she's just cut two teeth! My baby is awesome!


----------



## Boo44

Noelle610 said:


> bananaz said:
> 
> 
> Honestly at least for my own kid I think that most of her sleep habits are determined by factors that I can neither understand nor control. I have spent SO MUCH time reading and researching and experimenting that if it were really just a matter of finding the right set of conditions I'm sure she would be a perfect sleeper by now. Obviously there are some things I can do to encourage good sleep habits but after a certain point I think all of the trial and error is really for my own benefit, just so I can think I'm making some kind of progress. It reminds me of the Voltaire quote "the role of the physician is to entertain his patient while nature takes it course."
> 
> Or maybe I'm just feeling extra pessimistic today :haha:
> 
> Yes, THIS!Click to expand...

Bananaz this is so so true I wish I could save it and keep reading it whenever I feel down! Xxxx


----------



## MrsPear

:happydance: Awww MiniKiwi that really made me smile saying "My baby is awesome". Joni is too. :happydance: I'm so glad she is feeling better and coping well with the hospital xx


----------



## mrsbeano

Goodness me girlies, these babies are testing us recently aren't they?! All except Jessica's Lilly who seems to have got a tonne better!

Shadowy - I really hope that this isn't a regression and if it is that it passes soon enough. Just be consistent!

Noelle - I ended up being pretty cold with Quinn when he woke up in the night for ages. After I had checked that he was okay (food, nappy etc) I left him to it. It took 2 nights of him crying for 10 minutes before he seemed to get the message that 3am wasn't the time to be up. I can live with him needing a feed STILL but being up for hours is stressful and torturous at that time. Really glad your MW gave you something to help with your insomnia :thumbup:

Mrs Pear - sorry you're having a tough time. No naps just sucks. When Quinn takes rubbish naps something else is usually a culprit, namely teething. Try a dose of calpol half an hour before a nap and see if it makes a difference. 

xxx


----------



## mrsbeano

Bananaz - thats the attitude I have on a good day. On a bad day, I'm the obsessed with sleep, feeling like a failure Mummy, doh!
 
MiniKiwi - glad you're LO is getting better :flower:


----------



## stephj25

hi guys, I keep popping in and out of here because my little Livvy is still not sleeping good. She was up for 5 hours in the night. I am absolutely dreading tonight :cry: The waking hourly wasn't nearly as bad as this :cry:

I hope everyone else is ok x


----------



## MrsPear

stephj25 said:


> hi guys, I keep popping in and out of here because my little Livvy is still not sleeping good. She was up for 5 hours in the night. I am absolutely dreading tonight :cry: The waking hourly wasn't nearly as bad as this :cry:
> 
> I hope everyone else is ok x

Oh gosh :hugs: that's really hard. We all understand the dread of night time! I hope that you get a better sleep soon :hugs:

Noelle- I can't give you any advice about your nap/sleep situation- as you see from my posts today, I am not exactly an authority on that sort of thing! I really thought you had completely cracked it before Charlotte got ill, why do these babies keep throwing curveballs? I hope once you sort the insomnia out at least you might feel better equipped to cope with it all. x


----------



## MrsPear

bananaz you get it SO right, I don't think we will ever understand this mad sleep puzzle. But it will pass, we will get there, we just need patience not books and research xx


----------



## Noelle610

MiniKiwi, our babies are AWESOME! How nice to remember that :) Finally you got some rest. Hopefully Mia will be back to her old self sleep-wise (or better) soon enough.

MrsBeano, UGH, I know! It's kind of ironic because night weaning was going so well for us and now I wish for the days I could just feed her back to sleep! Unfortunately, I have read/heard that the length of night wakings do increase as babies age, since they're more "alert" and develop separation anxiety. I think being "all business" at night is good advice. I kind of got off track with that as a result of the illness and teething, when cuddles are needed. 

MrsPear, thanks... I'm hoping if I can sleep when she sleeps I'll feel better. 

Steph, 5 hours? That is torture! I'm so sorry.


----------



## stephj25

Noelle, I found Olivia was fighting naps until I realised that I was putting her down too early. I changed her naps so that her wake times are every 2 1/2 hours. After waking at 8:30, 1st nap at 11pm (waking at 12ish) 2nd nap at 2- 3ish (waking between 4-4:30). Betime is at 7:30pm. She naps brilliantly getting 3 hours in total. Just thought I'd share just in case you can get anything from this...


----------



## MiniKiwi

Steph, is she crying while she's awake for 5 hours? I'm probably just paranoid now because my LO was sick when she started waking frequently and for long periods each night. But that's why my advice would be to have her checked by a doctor if you haven't already. Hope she quits those long wakings quick smart! They really are torture!


----------



## stephj25

I've put her amber teething necklace on tonight and given her calpol. Hoping that will make a difference..

No Minikiwi - she just kind of whinges and talks to herself x


----------



## Noelle610

that's helpful Steph, thank you! I'm going to try it.


----------



## stephj25

MiniKiwi, just read up on what's up with your LO. Just wanted to send hugs :hugs:


----------



## Shadowy Lady

*Minikiwi *- yey! Glad your LO is doing better. Was telling my DH about the UTI and how the doctors missed it today. He was also pissed off on your behalf :D

Everyone else seems to be having difficulties again!!! Maaaan are our babies plotting not to sleep together or what? and OMG *Steph* 5 hours awake in the middle of the night??? many hugs to you sweetie...

Ya so some of you might have seen my other thread. I'm 100% sure now that this is the 4 months sleep regression as it has been going on for 5 nights in a row. My DH was in charge last night and said that Sofia was up at 11:30 pm, 1:30 am, 3:30 am, 5:30 am....after the 5:30 am though she slept till 9 am :/ He only fed her at 11:30 pm and 3:30 pm and the other times she went back to sleep by herself.

Oh the one thing is she's still easy to go down *touch wood* and self soothes at night. She just wakes up a LOT more than she used to :/ Naps are also becoming more difficult...God help me!!!!

I'm so scared of how long this might go on. As some of you know I'm dealing with post partum insomnia and this is really not helping. I don't wanna be a crying mess for the holidays :'(


----------



## MiniKiwi

Thanks Shadowy! We're home from the hospital, I'm so happy! No more needles and tears. I feel so bad for all the families spending christmas there :(

Shadowy, I don't have any good advice! But do try to take things one day at a time, you're not necessarily doomed for a long time! At 4 months, Mia's sleep went to crap for maybe a week and then got better. Sorry you're struggling with insomnia.. that must be the most frustrating thing. Keep your head up :hugs:


----------



## Noelle610

Shadowy, hugs! 4 months is a hard time. You will get through it.

Last night was our first night that Charlotte didn't have an hour plus long waking. She woke briefly around 11pm, put herself back to sleep and then slept through the rest of the night. I, however, slept very poorly. Here's hoping these meds kick in soon!


----------



## Shadowy Lady

Noelle - so sorry hun.I still believe i'll die of sleep deprivation that's how tough i find it. But as Charlotte is sleeping better and the meds you're taking i'm sure things will get better for you soon.

Sofia slept slightly better and woke up 3 times (at 11 pm, 3 am and 5:30 am) instead of the 4 times she did the past few nights. It's 8:30 am now and she's still asleep. It's still FAR from her norm though. I did feed her each time as I was too exhausted to do otherwise....hoping this doesn't last long.


----------



## bananaz

*MiniKiwi* - Yaaaay so glad your sweet baby is home and feeling better!

*Shadowy* - I know just what you're feeling, especially the worry about how long it will last, but you've been going through it for almost a week already so chances are things will start improving again soon. Hang in there :hugs:

*Noelle* - What an awesome night, for Charlotte anyway. If she can keep that up (and yes, I know all too well that's a big "if") then I'm sure you'll find a way of getting some sleep too.


Our night was somewhat better. Her nap schedule was totally screwy from her getting up so early yesterday so she ended up waking from her last nap at 5:30, but I still managed to get her to sleep at 6:45. She woke at 1:30 and I spent an entire hour shush-patting her (my neck is killing me!) but she just kept crying and sitting up even as I was doing it so at 2:30 I finally gave in and fed her for a few minutes. She went to sleep pretty quickly after that, and then I didn't hear a peep from her until 6:20! I think she might've slept even later, but my stupid cat has developed a habit of meowing at her door in the mornings :growlmad:

Anyway, I'm starting to think that getting her to sleep before 7pm is the key to eliminating the 4:30 wakeup call, but it can't really be that straightforward right??


----------



## jessicatunnel

We're out the door, going to the airport so can't write much, but our night was good. She went to bed at 9pm ( :dohh: ) and slept until 5am, fed her, and she slept until 8am where she woke up for the day. 
I have no idea why she's trying to push her bedtime later and later but I'm not having it anymore! Tonight she's going to bed at her normal bedtime, no questions asked! 

I might not be on for a few days, we're flying home for the holidays so are gonna be pretty busy catching up with family and stuff. 

Sorry I haven't read everyone's updates, but hope you all had a good night last night!

HAVE A GOOD CHRISTMAS EVERYONE!!


----------



## Noelle610

Bananaz, maybe it is that simple! I do hope so for your sake.

Jessica, Lilly basically slept through, how wonderful!

I really hope this begins a pattern for Charlotte, but she has to be the most inconsistent person I've ever met. My mom is into astrology and she tells me Geminis are like that - LOL!


----------



## Shadowy Lady

ughhhh same thing again last night: down at 8 pm, up for a feed at 12:30, then 3:30 and then 5:30 am...and again slept after that till 9 am. That's Sofia of course. I only got 3 hours of very broken sleep....

I feel so down these days. I know I should be happy and grateful for my happy and healthy baby but all I wanna do is cry from exhaustion :(


----------



## Noelle610

Shadowy Lady, I hear you! I could cry from exhaustion too. Charlotte woke up four times last night.

I slept from 8pm to 10pm and was up the rest of the night with insomnia. I put a call into my midwife to tell her I need something stronger than benadryl. Unfortunately I really feel I need some rest before the Zoloft kicks in (can take up to a month is my understanding).


----------



## bananaz

*Shadowy* - Big hugs for you, I'm sorry you're having such difficulty sleeping. Does Sofia usually go straight back to sleep after feeding at least?

*Noelle* - Oh no, only 2 hours of sleep?! That's terrible :( Any idea why Charlotte was waking so much? That's so crazy that she can basically sleep through one night and then be up four times the next!


Last night was pretty good for Elsie. She went down at 6:30 and then woke at 12:30. She's cutting a tooth right now so I was ready to go give her more ibuprofen and shush-pat her, but every time I got to the door she quieted down and I could see on the video monitor that she was trying really hard to go back to sleep on her own. After about an hour of her grumbling intermittently and me praying to every deity I could think of, she finally fell asleep. She woke again at 4am for a feed, and went straight back down until 5:30.

So, really not too bad, although I'm getting kind of tired of these hour-long wakings. But seeing on here how long other people's babies are up in the middle of the night does give me some perspective :wacko:


----------



## Noelle610

No idea Bananaz! Her naps were really good the previous day, too, so I can't explain it. Could have been a one-off though.

Sounds like Eslie had a wonderful night! I too feel for you on the hour-long wakings, but you're so right that it could be much worse.


----------



## mrsbeano

Shadowy Lady said:


> ughhhh same thing again last night: down at 8 pm, up for a feed at 12:30, then 3:30 and then 5:30 am...and again slept after that till 9 am. That's Sofia of course. I only got 3 hours of very broken sleep....
> 
> I feel so down these days. I know I should be happy and grateful for my happy and healthy baby but all I wanna do is cry from exhaustion :(

Shadowy - there is a HUGE growth spurt at around 16/17 weeks old. Lots of people confuse it for the need to start solids. I would assume that if she's just waking up to eat that it will probably pass in a week.


----------



## Shadowy Lady

thanks guys :) I'm so desperate though that I'm *this* close to try rice cereals tonight...I'm gonna wait it out another week though...hoping I won't drive myself crazy with no sleep


----------



## bananaz

Shadowy Lady said:


> thanks guys :) I'm so desperate though that I'm *this* close to try rice cereals tonight...I'm gonna wait it out another week though...hoping I won't drive myself crazy with no sleep

Heheh, I understand your desperation but don't do it! Chances are good it would have no effect, or even the opposite effect of what you want. I'm certainly never giving rice cereal before bed again after our experience last time :dohh:


----------



## Noelle610

bananaz said:


> Shadowy Lady said:
> 
> 
> thanks guys :) I'm so desperate though that I'm *this* close to try rice cereals tonight...I'm gonna wait it out another week though...hoping I won't drive myself crazy with no sleep
> 
> Heheh, I understand your desperation but don't do it! Chances are good it would have no effect, or even the opposite effect of what you want. I'm certainly never giving rice cereal before bed again after our experience last time :dohh:Click to expand...

It just made Charlotte puke all over me when I gave it to her at 3 months (bad mom alert!). I had to change her PJs and totally disrupt the bedtime routine.


----------



## Shadowy Lady

bananaz said:


> Shadowy Lady said:
> 
> 
> thanks guys :) I'm so desperate though that I'm *this* close to try rice cereals tonight...I'm gonna wait it out another week though...hoping I won't drive myself crazy with no sleep
> 
> Heheh, I understand your desperation but don't do it! Chances are good it would have no effect, or even the opposite effect of what you want. I'm certainly never giving rice cereal before bed again after our experience last time :dohh:Click to expand...




Noelle610 said:


> bananaz said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shadowy Lady said:
> 
> 
> thanks guys :) I'm so desperate though that I'm *this* close to try rice cereals tonight...I'm gonna wait it out another week though...hoping I won't drive myself crazy with no sleep
> 
> Heheh, I understand your desperation but don't do it! Chances are good it would have no effect, or even the opposite effect of what you want. I'm certainly never giving rice cereal before bed again after our experience last time :dohh:Click to expand...
> 
> It just made Charlotte puke all over me when I gave it to her at 3 months (bad mom alert!). I had to change her PJs and totally disrupt the bedtime routine.Click to expand...

ok fine i won't do it:haha: but will ask her pedi about night weaning at her 4-months appt on Jan 10th. I see Ferberizing in our near future :shrug:


----------



## bananaz

In addition to her normal commando crawling, Elsie has started doing a lot of this today. I'm sure it won't affect her sleep though, right? :dohh: Why won't this kid take a break!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfspisgiFs4​


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## Noelle610

OMG Bananaz! Elsie is going to be the best sleeping toddler because she's getting all of her milestones out of the way now!


----------



## bananaz

Noelle610 said:


> OMG Bananaz! Elsie is going to be the best sleeping toddler because she's getting all of her milestones out of the way now!

Haha, I really really hope you're right!


----------



## MiniKiwi

Oh bananaz! She's so clever :)

We had a great night here! Bed at 8:15pm, woke for a feed at 12, again at 4am and up for the day at 6:30am.

It's amazing how those shocker nights made me feel, I couldn't care less if she wakes 2, 3 or 4 times. Anything is better than that hellish screaming all night long. I'm just so pleased to have my happy baby back :)

Oh and she just went down for a nap without crying or fighting!!!!! :D


----------



## Noelle610

MiniKiwi said:


> Oh bananaz! She's so clever :)
> 
> We had a great night here! Bed at 8:15pm, woke for a feed at 12, again at 4am and up for the day at 6:30am.
> 
> It's amazing how those shocker nights made me feel, I couldn't care less if she wakes 2, 3 or 4 times. Anything is better than that hellish screaming all night long. I'm just so pleased to have my happy baby back :)
> 
> Oh and she just went down for a nap without crying or fighting!!!!! :D

Such great news! Hope you got some sleep too :)


----------



## stephj25

Yay!! It's starting to look up for most people I think. My LO woke every hour or 2 last night, I'm quite happy with that - anything is better than being awake for 5 hours straight...

We are also closer to crawling, she attempts to crawl and ends up landing flat on her face!! I think she may have mastered it by christmas!


----------



## Noelle610

Phew, Steph... glad things are better. I think you win the prize on this thread for WORST NIGHT EVER!


----------



## Noelle610

On another note, guess who cut her first tooth today?!


----------



## stephj25

Noelle610 said:


> On another note, guess who cut her first tooth today?!

awww, yay!!! what symptoms did she have before it came through. Olivia is getting her 3rd and she always has the same symptoms - nappy rash, eczema on cheeks, runny nose, drooling, itchy ears and smelly poo (more than normal)!!


----------



## Noelle610

stephj25 said:


> Noelle610 said:
> 
> 
> On another note, guess who cut her first tooth today?!
> 
> awww, yay!!! what symptoms did she have before it came through. Olivia is getting her 3rd and she always has the same symptoms - nappy rash, eczema on cheeks, runny nose, drooling, itchy ears and smelly poo (more than normal)!!Click to expand...

You know, she didn't have many symptoms! I went back and forth on whether she was actually teething. Mostly just fussing, more wakeful (ha!) and sucking on her bottom lip.


----------



## MiniKiwi

Noelle610 said:


> On another note, guess who cut her first tooth today?!

Aww! Which one did she get? Mia just got two on the bottom. It's hard to tell what her symptoms were cause she was ill at the same time but definitely red gums, more fussy and more drooling.


----------



## Noelle610

MiniKiwi said:


> Noelle610 said:
> 
> 
> On another note, guess who cut her first tooth today?!
> 
> Aww! Which one did she get? Mia just got two on the bottom. It's hard to tell what her symptoms were cause she was ill at the same time but definitely red gums, more fussy and more drooling.Click to expand...

I know it was on the bottom, but I'm not sure which one yet! I'll report back. Her daycare provider just texted me to tell me :)


----------



## MiniKiwi

Aww they're going to look so cute when they have just a tooth or two on the bottom :cloud9:


----------



## Shadowy Lady

Noelle - yey for the tooth finally :) maybe things will look easier now?

Steph - yey a new skill for xmas :) I cannot wait for my LO to learn crawling.

Speaking of which, missy napped much better today, kinda like her old self. A two hour nap between 10 am to 12 pm, then a couple of 30 mins nap and one 1 hour nap. Hoping that means a better night....*crossing fingers*


----------



## stephj25

Shadowy Lady said:


> Noelle - yey for the tooth finally :) maybe things will look easier now?
> 
> Steph - yey a new skill for xmas :) I cannot wait for my LO to learn crawling.
> 
> Speaking of which, missy napped much better today, kinda like her old self. A two hour nap between 10 am to 12 pm, then a couple of 30 mins nap and one 1 hour nap. Hoping that means a better night....*crossing fingers*

I'm keeping my fingers crossed for you!

I may be in for a rough night. Olivia had already woken up 3 times since going down at 7.30 (its now 10pm). I've given her some nurofen and put her amber necklace on. Took a few shushing cuddles to get her to settle down again though. She's now asleep again...for now!!


----------



## bananaz

*MiniKiwi* - Yay for a happy baby! I'm so so glad she's feeling better. Two wakings isn't bad at all either! I love your new avatar pic, btw. She's gorgeous.

*steph* - Yes, omg, anything must be better than being awake for 5 hours in the middle of the night. You poor thing :wacko:

*Noelle* - Awww that's great! You'll have to post a picture for us if you can get one. Elsie makes it impossible to see her tooth, she always sticks her tongue out.


----------



## MiniKiwi

I'm so nervous and confused.. My 15 minute napping, cry to sleep while rocking baby had the most amazing night last night and day today. I'm only nervous that it's cause she's still sick but she's been happier than ever today and is almost finished her antibiotics.

After a great night with 2 wakings, I fed her to sleep twice (never happens anymore) after 2.5 hours awake and she slept for 1 hr and 45 minutes EACH TIME :shock: wtf??? Then had a 30 minute nap, got up, had tea, milk and went to sleep at 8pm just lying on the bed next to OH. I can't even believe this. She's never done that!

We're on holiday and I'm scared to go home incase it's cause she loves it here! Oh man I don't even believe this

Eta: how long does your LO nap in a day total? Is that normal? 4 hrs for a 7 month old? She used to do 1 hr the whole day


----------



## stephj25

MiniKiwi said:


> I'm so nervous and confused.. My 15 minute napping, cry to sleep while rocking baby had the most amazing night last night and day today. I'm only nervous that it's cause she's still sick but she's been happier than ever today and is almost finished her antibiotics.
> 
> After a great night with 2 wakings, I fed her to sleep twice (never happens anymore) after 2.5 hours awake and she slept for 1 hr and 45 minutes EACH TIME :shock: wtf??? Then had a 30 minute nap, got up, had tea, milk and went to sleep at 8pm just lying on the bed next to OH. I can't even believe this. She's never done that!
> 
> We're on holiday and I'm scared to go home incase it's cause she loves it here! Oh man I don't even believe this
> 
> Eta: how long does your LO nap in a day total? Is that normal? 4 hrs for a 7 month old? She used to do 1 hr the whole day

That's brilliant! Mine always naps for 3 hours every time unless she had a rubbish night. she dropped her 3rd nap last week


----------



## Noelle610

MiniKiwi, it sounds to me like she's just feeling better! Glad to hear Mia is getting back to her old self.

So Charlotte's tooth seems to be right on the surface... Last night was a lot of moaning and tossing and turning. I'm fairly certain that this is the reason she's been having long-ish night wakings. I've given her advil, teething tablets, etc, but nothing seems to really comfort her except mom rocking her and a pacifier, which we had previously gotten rid of. Guess I just have to ride it out! I have heard that the first teeth are the worst until molars.

Steph, when Charlotte came home from daycare her cheeks were red and she has had loose stools today while she's usually constipated. Chalk that up to teething?

Bananaz, will try my best for a photo! Charlotte won't let me near her mouth either!


----------



## MrsPear

Noelle, Joni was only comforted by being held when she got her two front bottom teeth. Nothing else really worked although she does really enjoy teething rings etc in the day. Some nights I held her several hours.

Actually, at the moment she is averaging 2-3 wake ups, so that's not too bad although they can be long ones...but for the past few days her nose has been running non stop (no other cold symptoms) and last night she would NOT be put down past 3.30, so I am wondering is it another tooth? I hope so, it sort of makes no sleep worthwhile when you get a result at the end of it! 

MiniKiwi, who knows, babies do just throw curveball naps in every now and again. I hope it's a pattern though. About once a fortnight Joni will take an hour long nap (very long for her) and it's very welcome!

Steph- does the amber necklace work? I am thinking of getting one but don't know if it's really going to do anything.

...oooh got to go, Joni is crying....


----------



## stephj25

Noelle - that could have something to do with teething. Olivia has the smelliest wees and poos and the poos are dark green and runny ....sorry if anyone is eating while reading this!! :wacko:

Mrs Pear - the amber necklace definitely works for us :thumbup:


----------



## stella26

Oh my goodness will this never end....
My almost 8 month old is up llike every 45 minutes to a hour the last few nights. She did this about 3 weeks ago for about a week and then a tooth came through so I'm wondering if she is getting another tooth.
All she wants to do at night is nurse, nothing else will sooth her. I'm SOOOOO tired.
I'm so afraid she is not getting enough sleep. It's a struggle lately to get her down for naps aswell and when I do there like 20 minutes thats it.
I wouldn't mind the 20 minute naps if she slepts well at night but she doesn't, no joke when I say she is up like 15 times a night. I'm so fustrated, I get NO help from husband either, all on me.
I can only pray for a better night tonight.
Oh I finally got her sleeping in her swing right now, hopefully she naps for awhile, she needs it.


----------



## bananaz

MiniKiwi said:


> I'm so nervous and confused.. My 15 minute napping, cry to sleep while rocking baby had the most amazing night last night and day today. I'm only nervous that it's cause she's still sick but she's been happier than ever today and is almost finished her antibiotics.
> 
> After a great night with 2 wakings, I fed her to sleep twice (never happens anymore) after 2.5 hours awake and she slept for 1 hr and 45 minutes EACH TIME :shock: wtf??? Then had a 30 minute nap, got up, had tea, milk and went to sleep at 8pm just lying on the bed next to OH. I can't even believe this. She's never done that!
> 
> We're on holiday and I'm scared to go home incase it's cause she loves it here! Oh man I don't even believe this
> 
> Eta: how long does your LO nap in a day total? Is that normal? 4 hrs for a 7 month old? She used to do 1 hr the whole day


That's wonderful! And it may very well continue. My LO also used to be a very unpredictable catnapper but around 6 months her sleep suddenly consolidated and she started taking these glorious 1-2.5 hour naps. She still has the occasional day of 20-minute naps, but that's the exception rather than the rule these days. Now she usually gets 3-4 hours of naps every day (which I think is appropriate for a baby this age) instead of the 1-2 hours she used to get. It's such a nice change :cloud9:


----------



## bananaz

stella26 said:


> Oh my goodness will this never end....
> My almost 8 month old is up llike every 45 minutes to a hour the last few nights. She did this about 3 weeks ago for about a week and then a tooth came through so I'm wondering if she is getting another tooth.
> All she wants to do at night is nurse, nothing else will sooth her. I'm SOOOOO tired.
> I'm so afraid she is not getting enough sleep. It's a struggle lately to get her down for naps aswell and when I do there like 20 minutes thats it.
> I wouldn't mind the 20 minute naps if she slepts well at night but she doesn't, no joke when I say she is up like 15 times a night. I'm so fustrated, I get NO help from husband either, all on me.
> I can only pray for a better night tonight.
> Oh I finally got her sleeping in her swing right now, hopefully she naps for awhile, she needs it.


Wow, big hugs to you, that is so tough :hugs: I hope it is just teething and she'll get back to sleeping well once the tooth cuts through (which should be soon!). Have you tried giving her some pain meds to see if it helps? My LO is teething right now and I find she sleeps a lot better when I give her a dose of ibuprofen before bed.


----------



## Noelle610

So sorry Stella! Currently going through something very similar with my 7 month old and teething. Big hugs to you.


----------



## stella26

I hear that med's would make baby sleepy and yes I have tried but it has no affect on her, figures right? lol. She doesn't get sleepy from it.
I think I'm just a little more fustrated today becasue last night I went to a Christmas Party where I saw two co workers who have babies aswell and they just could not beleive that my DD is up SO much, like always there babies are sleeping 12 hour long stretches and have been since 6 months. It's making me feel as though I'm doing something wrong, and I feel like a failure. All I want to do is cry today.
ALso I just feel as though I get no help from husband, I know I'm EBF (daughter won't take a bottle) but he could try and help soothe her so maybe she will learn tp ss on her own, with me she just won't, an wants boobies....
Ahhhh motherhood, I never new could be so hard, YES rewarding but still SO hard.... 




bananaz said:


> stella26 said:
> 
> 
> Oh my goodness will this never end....
> My almost 8 month old is up llike every 45 minutes to a hour the last few nights. She did this about 3 weeks ago for about a week and then a tooth came through so I'm wondering if she is getting another tooth.
> All she wants to do at night is nurse, nothing else will sooth her. I'm SOOOOO tired.
> I'm so afraid she is not getting enough sleep. It's a struggle lately to get her down for naps aswell and when I do there like 20 minutes thats it.
> I wouldn't mind the 20 minute naps if she slepts well at night but she doesn't, no joke when I say she is up like 15 times a night. I'm so fustrated, I get NO help from husband either, all on me.
> I can only pray for a better night tonight.
> Oh I finally got her sleeping in her swing right now, hopefully she naps for awhile, she needs it.
> 
> 
> Wow, big hugs to you, that is so tough :hugs: I hope it is just teething and she'll get back to sleeping well once the tooth cuts through (which should be soon!). Have you tried giving her some pain meds to see if it helps? My LO is teething right now and I find she sleeps a lot better when I give her a dose of ibuprofen before bed.Click to expand...


----------



## bananaz

We had another good night here. Down at 6:45, up at 2 for a feed, then up to nurse again at 4:45. She started fussing after I put her back down the second time and I decided to give her a few minutes to resettle herself because I knew from experience that trying to soothe her during those early-morning wakings never ends well. So I got back in bed, turned on the video monitor and... woke up 45 minutes later :blush: I'm hoping that means that she didn't fuss long before going back to sleep and not that I slept through her crying. Anyway, she got up for the day at 6:30 and she actually seemed happy and well-rested for once. Hopefully this trend will continue.


----------



## bananaz

stella26 said:


> I hear that med's would make baby sleepy and yes I have tried but it has no affect on her, figures right? lol. She doesn't get sleepy from it.
> I think I'm just a little more fustrated today becasue last night I went to a Christmas Party where I saw two co workers who have babies aswell and they just could not beleive that my DD is up SO much, like always there babies are sleeping 12 hour long stretches and have been since 6 months. It's making me feel as though I'm doing something wrong, and I feel like a failure. All I want to do is cry today.
> ALso I just feel as though I get no help from husband, I know I'm EBF (daughter won't take a bottle) but he could try and help soothe her so maybe she will learn tp ss on her own, with me she just won't, an wants boobies....
> Ahhhh motherhood, I never new could be so hard, YES rewarding but still SO hard....

Ibuprofen doesn't make babies sleepy but if they're not sleeping well because they're in pain it can help with that. I'm sorry to hear it hasn't helped your girl though!

Please don't beat yourself up, chances are your daughter's sleep issues have very little to do with anything you have or haven't done. I definitely sympathize with you, though - I'm a single mom and my LO is also EBF and refuses to take a bottle. It's ridiculous that your husband won't help you at night, you should not have to be dealing with this by yourself when you have a partner there! And like you said, it's so much harder for a nursing mom to soothe her baby back to sleep without feeding than it would be for him to do it. Maybe he would be more receptive if you put together a short-term gameplan, like "You handle the wakings between this time and this time for the next week and we'll see if that helps," so that he wouldn't feel that he's on the hook forever? Not that he shouldn't be on the hook forever - it's his kid too!

How much is she eating when you nurse her at night? Does she just suck and then go straight back to sleep or does she actively nurse for a while?


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## Shadowy Lady

Stella - I'm so sorry about your bad nights :( But try not to compare your baby to others. How a baby sleeps has no reflection on you as a parent. Hope things improve for your soon.

Bananaz - so glad things are still going well for you hun. The best part to me is that you pretty much know when she'll be up and so you get to rest.

Last night my DH and I did shifts at night. He was in charge from 8 pm (when Sofia goes to sleep) to 3 am as we know that she likes to wake up at 12 am nowadays. So hubby said she did wake up at midnight but only drank 2oz and went to sleep. At 3 am, she woke up again and hubby came downstairs to get me and switch places. I went up to see that Sofia had already fallen asleep. She stayed asleep till 7 am!! At that point I fed her and she went back to sleep till around 10 am.

One thing I had done differently yesterday was to feed her more often and also in a quiet room during the day so I don't think she was hungry at night. I will do the same today and hope she breaks this new habit of night wakings :)


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## stella26

My DH thinks becasue I'm on maternity leave and home ALL day it's my responsibilty to take care of her at night since he has to get up for work. I get it don't get me wrong, I understand he has to wake up early and work but I don't see anything wrong with a day here and there of being tired. I too have to work, well taking care of a baby is work and If I'm sleep deprived which I am then I'm not at my best and my daughter is not getting my best. Not too mention I have to clean the house, do laundry make dinner. I just think he could step up to the plate every once and awhile and help me, he is the dad for pete's sake.
Uhmmm at night she will eat sometimes and other times I no it's just to get her back to sleep because it's quick.
I know this will eventually pass, I just hope it's sooner then later. 
I too will have to be back at work in April and I will need the sleep.





bananaz said:


> stella26 said:
> 
> 
> I hear that med's would make baby sleepy and yes I have tried but it has no affect on her, figures right? lol. She doesn't get sleepy from it.
> I think I'm just a little more fustrated today becasue last night I went to a Christmas Party where I saw two co workers who have babies aswell and they just could not beleive that my DD is up SO much, like always there babies are sleeping 12 hour long stretches and have been since 6 months. It's making me feel as though I'm doing something wrong, and I feel like a failure. All I want to do is cry today.
> ALso I just feel as though I get no help from husband, I know I'm EBF (daughter won't take a bottle) but he could try and help soothe her so maybe she will learn tp ss on her own, with me she just won't, an wants boobies....
> Ahhhh motherhood, I never new could be so hard, YES rewarding but still SO hard....
> 
> Ibuprofen doesn't make babies sleepy but if they're not sleeping well because they're in pain it can help with that. I'm sorry to hear it hasn't helped your girl though!
> 
> Please don't beat yourself up, chances are your daughter's sleep issues have very little to do with anything you have or haven't done. I definitely sympathize with you, though - I'm a single mom and my LO is also EBF and refuses to take a bottle. It's ridiculous that your husband won't help you at night, you should not have to be dealing with this by yourself when you have a partner there! And like you said, it's so much harder for a nursing mom to soothe her baby back to sleep without feeding than it would be for him to do it. Maybe he would be more receptive if you put together a short-term gameplan, like "You handle the wakings between this time and this time for the next week and we'll see if that helps," so that he wouldn't feel that he's on the hook forever? Not that he shouldn't be on the hook forever - it's his kid too!
> 
> How much is she eating when you nurse her at night? Does she just suck and then go straight back to sleep or does she actively nurse for a while?Click to expand...


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## stephj25

Stella, my DH is exactly the same. He hasn't got up a single time since my LO was born!! I've been all on my own doing it :dohh:

Your LO is probably going through a phase too, i'm sure it won't last long- i'm hope it will get better soon for you xx


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## MiniKiwi

Thanks for the advice! Bananaz, that sounds like a great night, very similar to what Mia's been doing the last couple of nights. She's just gone down for her first nap of the day without much of a fight so we'll see if it's another 1hr and 45 minuter!

Man it would be lovely to have a well rested baby!

Shadowy - that sounds like a great night, well done Sofia! But the real question is, did YOU manage to get any sleep?

Noelle - Hope you're managing to get some rest too. Mia's got an amber teething necklace, I'm not sure if it works but she doesn't seem to be having trouble with the teeth and she's not having any pain relief for them :shrug:

Stella - big :hugs: So sorry you have to deal with that with no help. What does your DH say when you ask him for help? I agree that you should be sharing night times regardless of him having to go to work, like you said, what's the big deal about a few tired days for him? I'm hoping you see a new tooth soon and her sleep will get better for you, have you got an amber necklace? I agree with bananaz that some pain meds might be the way to go.

It's hard not to compare your baby to other people's babies! But it's just your bad luck, nothing to do with your parenting! You are not a failure :hugs: People with babies who sleep (I used to be one of these!) don't understand it's all luck! I used to think I was a pro-parent lmao! Until the four month sleep regression when things started getting difficult. Out of the 12 babies at my baby group, Mia is the only one who has a hard time with sleeping and it does make me feel like I'm doing something wrong too! I know I'm doing my best for her and that she'll sleep when she's good and ready. I really hope you have some better luck tonight and in the next days :hugs:


----------



## lysh

There is no way I can catch up with all the posts!! Finally on holiday break for a week- so far been a rocky start. Baby girl is teething and is waking up again every 1-2 hours. DH and I are hosting 21 people for Christmas at the house and I am regretting getting ourselves into this!!!! I am sleep deprived, overwhelmed, and I barely have time to pee never mind clean up the house! So now, thanks to all this stress, DH and I are fighting and barely spoke since this morning. Lovely 1st Christmas with DD. 

Stella- My girl does the same thing- she will not take a bottle at night. Because I have gone back to work, she takes it during the day but refuses at night. So, I am on my own too and it sucks. That is why DH and I are in a fight...it was suppose to be my morning to sleep in (we take turns on the weekend getting up with LO) and she decided 4:30 was wake-up time. He made some comment about being tired and I snottily told him that at least he does not have to get up and nurse all night long. He got mad and feels I am trying to make him feel bad and that he wakes up too when I get up and get back into bed. ugh

Sorry for the rant- I wish I had time to catch up to see how all the babies are sleeping! Maybe after the holiday madness.


----------



## bananaz

Well I hope the reason this thread has quieted down is that everyone's babies are sleeping perfectly now! :haha:

*lysh* - You are a brave woman having so many people over, holy cow! I can't imagine hosting anybody with the state my house and I are in right now.


On the whole Elsie has been sleeping well and has fallen into a pattern of going down around 6:30 and then waking once between 12:30 and 2:30 and once between 3:30 and 4:30. Except last night, when she was up at least every hour after 1am :wacko: 

I stuck with my two regular feedings and the rest of the wakings I just let her resettle herself, but I'm still not confident I'm doing the "right" thing. She was only fussing and I could see on the monitor that she was trying to go back to sleep on her own which is why I chose not to go in, but I still worry that I'm effectively letting her CIO. I've also been so exhausted and groggy at night that I find myself falling back asleep when she's fussing and then I don't even know how long she was awake, which I feel really guilty about. I'd like to think that if she were actually upset I would be awake since I'm pretty responsive to her at night (I almost always wake up exactly 10 minutes before she does, weirdly enough), but who knows?


----------



## Shadowy Lady

Bananaz - hahaha no i wish! I'm still not sleeping...and I have a cold too :/ and as I have sinusitis my ears hurt like no tomorrow :( and ouch at being up every hour after 1 am. That's totally rough. With my state of illness and all the family coming here tomorrow for xmas brunch I would totally die :/

I'm trying to wean Sofia off to only one night feeding so I'm pretty much going by Chapter 7 in Ferber's book which is super gentle. It's working ok but it takes about a week or so in the meantime we're up every 2 hours. 

So she's down at 8 pm, when she woke up at 11:30 pm I didn't feed her as I'm trying to get her back to at least 4 hours between feed. She whined a bit and went back to sleep and woke up at 2:30 am when I fed her. Then she woke up at 4:30 am when I let her go back to sleep on her own. Then she was up again at 7 am when I fed her and she slept again till 9 am...now I'm not sure if I'm doing this right though and whether we're supposed to be up more than usual before things improve...if anyone has done ferber's night weening let me know :)


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## lysh

shadowy- I have not done the Ferber night weaning as my doctor seems to think I have low capacity and might not be able to go all night without feeding. ugh lol I do not think I can do this for a year though, so I might try at some point. I was going to try to reduce her to one feeding a night while on break, but now she has a runny nose and is teething! 

It sounds like a lot of our babies are teething right now. My LO is getting her very first front tooth!!! The other front tooth on the bottom is starting to show a bit too. 

Bananaz- I have been wanting to ask- do you take those pictures of Elsie yourself??? The photos are always so beautiful!

Well, I am sitting down after a long day of cleaning up for tomorrow and spending Christmas Eve at MILs. I still have a lot to do though and everyone will start showing up at around noon tomorrow. Thankfully, SIL is coming to keep my LO occupied 2 hours before the festivities begin. I am am nuts for doing this! haha 

For those of you who celebrate Christmas- Merry Christmas and have a wonderful day tomorrow!


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## Noelle610

Hey girls! Sorry I have been MIA. I am in upstate New York visiting my dad for Christmas. 

Well that tooth finally popped through! Charlotte has slept surprisingly well now, especially considering we are traveling. We drove 6 hours to get here and that was kind of a nightmare - she wouldn't nap at all in the car!

But all else seems to be going much better than expected! We had only one waking the past two nights and last night she slept straight through! Charlotte went to bed late last night and was very overtired and of course is trying to get up early right now. I'm listening to her on the monitor hoping she will settle in for another hour. I can't complain, though. I think we're in a good place... for now.

Merry Christmas everyone!


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## MrsPear

Yay Charlotte's tooth has arrived! Glad you're in a 'good place'!

Lysh hope those teeth come through quickly :flower:

Bananaz I hope Elsie continues with waking up only twice...I was just saying to OH tonight how you never can tell if you're doing the 'right thing'. You never know how something else would have worked out so I just think you have to not worry about it.

Stella I know you wrote your post ages ago but I only just came on- it's such hard work doing all the night feedings and settlings- can be really depressing when you spend every day so tired. We all feel for you!

MiniKiwi, have the long naps continued?

Shadowy Lady- I am wondering if Joni would benefit from a dark quiet room for day feeds too. She might eat more and want less at night? Have you had a good success?

As for me...well my new year's resolution is to not complain so much! haha, so I think that includes on this thread. Just a heads up though, Joni is NOT sleeping well...here's me not complaining :happydance::happydance::happydance:

I'm taking my inspiration from one of my closest friends with children...can you believe she has triplets 6.5 months old, and when we meet up she juggles three whilst I flap about just with one- and I've never heard a single complaint from her!!! She really is brilliant, but I bet I'm back on here in a couple of days with more complaints than ever :haha: 

In the meantime I'll just be reading :coffee:


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## Boo44

Wow triplets! Haha yes we all know one of those mums who never complains and makes us feel guilty! My LO is really regressing at the moment and waking earlier and earlier each day for the past week. I feel like I have tried everything and nothing is helping. The main issue is my reaction which is to worry that 'everything is ruined' and get all upset about it. I think the worst thing is the hope each night that whatever you've tried that night might make it all ok, then the disappointment when I hear him waking up. Argh it's so stressful!


----------



## bananaz

Boo44 said:


> The main issue is my reaction which is to worry that 'everything is ruined' and get all upset about it. I think the worst thing is the hope each night that whatever you've tried that night might make it all ok, then the disappointment when I hear him waking up. Argh it's so stressful!

YES, I know exactly what you mean, I have the exact same thought processes! There have been so many nights when I went to crazy lengths to make sure she had the absolute ideal conditions for sleeping well - her naps were timed perfectly, she had a ton of milk and solids during the day, she was in comfy clean pajamas, the temperature in her room was perfect, etc etc and then she slept horribly. That's when I really start feeling hopeless.

I just have to keep reminding myself that things can get better or worse suddenly but overall there has been improvement, and eventually she will be a consistently "good" sleeper one way or the other. It's still hard not to think "Oh god, everything's falling apart, this is never going to get better!" after a few bad nights though (or a couple months of them, lol).

I'm not going to bother getting into details about how last night went but I will say that she was up a lot, including a 2-hour screamfest around midnight :wacko: I'm hoping it was just because she went to bed late and was overtired, and hopefully we'll be back to better sleep again tonight.


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## Boo44

Oh dear that sounds awful bananaz. I really hope tonight is better for you! We started Christmas Day at 5.22am exactly with a wide awake ready to party baby, I was like a zombie all day!

I def let it get to me too much and I know I need to work at going with the flow a bit - but I've never been like that about anything, I'm a complete analyser!!

My LO was sooo overtired tonight when we finally got home from visiting family, so I am anticipating yet another crazy early start. It's 9.30 here and I'm thinking of heading off to bed!


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## bananaz

Boo44 said:


> I def let it get to me too much and I know I need to work at going with the flow a bit - but I've never been like that about anything, I'm a complete analyser!!

I'm the same way. I don't think it's a helpful attitude with a baby, but I don't know how to stop!

On a related note, I am officially losing hope about her sleep again :nope: She had two pretty good weeks with 6-7 hour stretches at the beginning of each night but now over the past week her first waking has crept earlier by a half hour each night and last night it was back to the $&[email protected] 11:30 wakeup I worked so hard to get rid of when this whole mess started! And she's also started standing up in the her crib all the time, which isn't helping her go back to sleep on her own.

Sorry for whining, I'm just so freaking fed up and tired, I really need a break from this.


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## Shadowy Lady

Boo, Bananaz and MrsPear - sorry your LO's are still up a lot :( I know it seems like there's no easy "fix" for night wakings.

MrsPear - Yes, I def found that feeding in a dark room (or at least quiet room) during the day helps. I've managed to cut her night feeding back down to 2 (it had gone up as high as 4).

So we've had some success with Sofia. After trying Ferber's night weaning method for 3 nights her first wakeup has been moved from 11:30 pm to 1 am. Her second one is harder though but it's been moved from 4:30 am to 5:30 am. I think I'm gonna move the start of her bedtime to an earlier time gradually. I'm gonna start putting her to bed 15 mins earlier each night until she's down at 7 pm.

The problem with us is me mostly. I'm still not sleeping well :( and I think I've developed a phobia of night time...I wanted to not take Melatonin last night but I was so worried about it that I didn't go to sleep until I took a dose and then I fell asleep immediately. Which is making me think I probably don't really need the drugs and this is all in my head :( but it's such a deadly cycle and I'm always sleep deprived. Every other day I spend half the crying outta exhaustion. Anyone dealing with this?


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## bananaz

lysh said:


> Bananaz- I have been wanting to ask- do you take those pictures of Elsie yourself??? The photos are always so beautiful!

Yes I do, thank you! :flower:


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## Noelle610

Hey ladies!

Bananaz, my heart goes out to you - I know how hopeless it feels to backslide. That's why I started this thread! Have you considered the often-considered taboo of sleep training to deal with that first waking? I do think that both Elsie and Charlotte should be able to go 6 or 7 hours without eating at the beginning of the night, since they are healthy and solids have been established. I'm not sure how you feel about it, but just a thought since I know you've exhausted many options.

Boo, I completely understand how you feel! I am prone to anxiety and not quite a "go with the flow" type of girl myself, so I am right there with you in terms of stressing over the uncertainty. Unfortunately I've had to accept that it's always something with these babies and even the most consistent kids go through weird phases. We dealt with that early morning waking for quite some time and what helped was actually putting Charlotte to bed earlier. It seems counter-intuitive, but I truly believe Dr. Weissbluth's saying of "early to bed, LATE to rise". It continues to be true for us. C went to bed an hour late on Christmas eve and I was sure she would sleep late, but she actually woke super early! My other thought is, how much daytime sleep is your LO getting? Sometimes early wakings can be a sign that they're ready to drop a nap.

Shadowy Lady, glad to hear that the night weaning is going well. I am sorry you are not sleeping. I too think I developed a phobia of night time and was feeling so physically awful that it was making it hard for me to function. I must admit to try everything from melatonin to benadryl to meditation and nothing worked. What finally worked was just drugs. I am very much a natural person and hate to turn to medication, but after sleeping well (I mean, as well as you can with a baby) for a week now I feel like a new person. I highly recommend chatting with your doctor again. 

Nights have been good here since that darn tooth popped through. Charlotte woke once last night around the 2:30am mark, screaming, from what I think was teething pain. There's a second popping up, but my mom friends tell me it's never as bad as the first. I cuddled her momentarily and she then slept through the rest of the night. I'm just going to enjoy this good sleep while it lasts, because I know it won't. She is trying SO HARD to crawl right now and she's super sensitive to developmental milestones, so I'm sure we're in for some crazy nights soon enough.


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## libbylou

Jumping into this thread with you ladies :)

LO has never been a good sleeper. 
She was a terrible sleeper from birth to 8 weeks...started to improve and was consistently giving me 3-5 hour stretches at that time
Then the sleep regression hit at 13 weeks. She wouldn't nap, naps were short when they did happen, it took hours trying to rock/nurse her to sleep at night and she would wake up pretty much every single light sleep cycle (every 45-60 mins).
We started cosleeping almost full time to deal with this as she slept way better when in bed with us as she just nursed all night long
Did sleep training (camping out/modified CC) at 6 months and it was amazing! She started going to sleep easily at the start of the night (which luckily still continues), napping well (sometimes she still naps well, sometimes she doesn't) and sleeping 4-6 hours at a time. I seriously felt like a new person after two weeks of this!

And then she got her two front teeth
And a cold
And an ear infection
And then she seems to have developed separation anxiety or is going through some developmental stuff or something :wacko:

Right now she's been fighting her naps for the past couple of days and night sleep has sucked for the last 6 weeks. 
She's sleeping 1.5-2 hours for her first stretch and then up every hour beyond. She is restless when we take her into bed with us so I end up getting a crap sleep even when we cosleep. 
We've even had quite a few nights where she flat out refuses to settle and just cries for 2-3 hours which has never happened before, she's always been really easy to get back to sleep in the middle of the night. 
We've been playing a lot of musical beds...she starts the night in her crib and then whenever she refuses to settle in her crib after a waking, she comes to bed with us...then when she gets really restless in bed with us she goes back to her crib...and then back into bed with us when she won't settle in her crib anymore :wacko:

Cosleeping is really the only way I am coping right now...except I have major issues with my hips and back and cosleeping is wreaking even more havoc on my poor body :wacko: and the lack of sleep and constant barrage of broken sleep is really screwing with my anxiety and PPD issues too.


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## Aimee1003

I am still here ...mostly stalking the thread but last night was bad. Bed at 7:30. Up at 11:45. Down at 12:15. Up at 2:15.Cried and woke up everytime I laid him down (very unusual) . Finally asleep at 4:15. Up at 5. Down at 6:15. Up at 7:30! What the hell!!!

I have given up hope he will ever sttn again. Ever since wonder week 19 it has been tough. Good thing he is an easy baby otherwise!


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## Noelle610

Libby, the same thing happened to us! Sleep was going so well and then we had the cold/ear infection/teething trifecta and it totally messed things up. We seem to be getting back on track (touch wood), but it always seems to be something, doesn't it?

Aimee, that sounds brutal, I am so sorry! Those long night wakings are the worst.


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## bananaz

*Noelle* - I'm not averse to sleep training and we've done a little before, I'm just never sure if it's the right move. But I don't think she's teething or sick right now, and I definitely don't think she actually needs to be eating at 11:30, so if the current trend continues CC may definitely be in our future. 

*libby* - That is so tough :hugs: I remember how well you were doing with the CC, I'm sorry to hear it's gotten bad again. Elsie has also started having periods of screaming and refusing to settle in the middle of the night, as have many other babies around the same age on this thread, so I'm wondering if it's a developmental thing? 

*Aimee* - Ughh horrible! That sounds very similar to how our nights have been lately.


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## lysh

Ladies....you are not giving me hope for the 6-7 month mark! lol LO had a bad few nights....Christmas was overly stimulating as we had a lot of people over so it threw her off. Last night she was back to 3-3 1/2 hour stretches (which for her I consider a good night). Her front two bottom teeth are out, so hopefully there is a break until her top teeth start coming in. 

Libby- Sorry for the backslide! It is so hard-cosleeping killed my back and hips and baby girl is way too active!!I hope this calms down soon....have you bothered trying CC again? I find after going through that I have a hard time finding the heart/energy to go through it again! 

Baby girl is wanting attention lol....have to go attend


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## Shadowy Lady

Libby - aaaaah man...I'm now worried about the future :/ Hope you guys get back on track soon.

Aimee - there's another wonder week at week 19? Damn it! These babies are in one of these wonder weeks all the time, aren't they?:hugs:

Noelle - I'm a natural kinda person too. I'm not one to pop a pill as soon as I have a headache or am sick. I even did a fully natural labour and birth with Sofia. However, the sleep deprivation is so tough on me I'm willing to give medication a chance.

Things with Sofia's sleep are still improving thankfully. We put her to bed at 7:30 pm (instead of her usual 8:00 pm) and she slept till 2 am when she needed a feed. Then she slept again till 6:30 am when I fed her. It's 9:00 am now and she is asleep. I gotta say hats off to doctor Ferber:thumbup: both his sleep association and night weaning have worked great for us.

On the other hand I'm still sleeping very poorly:cry: Damn snow trucks came in at 2 am to move the loads and loads of snow we got and were in the streets till 4:30 am. They were SO loud, beeping as they moved ughhhhhh:wacko: i got no sleep in that time frame. Sometimes I hate living in this %$#&'ing country :growlmad:


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## bananaz

*lysh* - I'm glad your LO is starting to settle back into better habits. I really hope she starts giving you longer than 3.5 hour stretches though! 

*Shadowy Lady* - Wow, that sounds like a great night. How did you implement the night weaning and sleep association training? Did you pick specific wakings to try and eliminate or did you just tackle the whole night at once?


Last night was better for us. LO had the same pattern of wakings (11:30 and 2:30) but she put herself back to sleep within 5 minutes at the 11:30 one and then she didn't get up for the day until 6 instead of 5:30 like yesterday. So all in all not too bad, though I was up a lot with stupid hot flashes. I think I need to go see a GYN, I'm guessing it's not normal to still be getting hot flashes 7 months postpartum?? 

Also, I'm curious, what time do you ladies usually go to bed yourselves? Right now LO goes to bed at 6:30 but for some reason I can't get myself to go to sleep earlier than 9, so I'm missing out on 2.5 hours of potential sleep every night. I bet if I was able to go to sleep at 7 or 7:30 once in a while that would really help.


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## lysh

Bananaz- LO falls asleep between 6:30-7. Same here...I usually go to bed 8:30-9. I can't go to bed earlier during the work week though....only time I have to get anything done (which is hard because I am exhausted by evening).

LO is currently fighting me on putting her in her crib for her nap this morning. We are going to a friends for lunch so I am sitting here holding her so she will hopefully be in a good mood for lunch. Some days she lets me put her down no problem and other days it is a fight!:shrug: When I am working, poor DH cannot get her to nap at all in the morning unless she cries in her crib for 5-10 minutes. It is wearing on him.


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## Shadowy Lady

Bananaz - I went pretty much by Ferber's book Chapters 4 (sleep association) and then 7 (night weaning). 

We first eliminated the use of soother for night time based on Chapt 4. I put Sofia down awake and drowsy, leave and wait the intervals of 1, 3, and 5 mins before going in. It worked after only 3 nights. If she woke up in the middle of the night and wasn't hungry, I repeated the same step. Then after the 4-month sleep regression hit and suffering for 10 days, we implemented Chapt 7. The goal was to add 30 mins to time intervals between feed every night. We started at 3 hour interval and are now on 5 hour. Her first feed is at 2 am (moved from 11 pm) and her second one at 6:30 am (moved from 4 am). So pretty much we're back to one feed per night when the sleep regression had brought us up to 4 feeds!!!

I found both chapters fairly simple to use and I still don't see how Ferber has such a bad rep. His method works and we barely had any crying, just some fussing. She's also a much happier child now :)

Also, to answer your question about bedtime, mine is sooo messed up. I try to go to sleep at 9 pm but most of the time I don't fall asleep till like 11 pm :/ ughhh this is why I'm the issue and not Sofia :(


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## maidelyn

What age can you start sleep training? My LO is only 7wks so I don't want to start something too early but I'd also like some sleep!! Most of the time he'll do one stretch of 3-5hrs (from midnight usually) and then a couple more hours but the biggest problem is getting him off to sleep.... he fights it so much it can take an hour or two although I'm wondering whether that's because he's awake too long. Today for instance he's only had a couple of 30min naps since 0930 until we took him out for a drive at 1730 to try and get him to sleep.


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## Shadowy Lady

maidelyn - Def too early now...I've read a lot of sleep books and they may all be different but they agree on one thing. You cannot sleep train a newborn. They will not learn the pattern that early and they do need to eat every 3-4 hours. 5 Hours is the max you can get outta them. It will pass just hang in there.

We started at 3.5 months and that was just eliminating the soother. We started night weaning this week at 4 months. But even so I will still feed her once a night, I don't want to completely wean her off as she's young.


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## maidelyn

Yeah the night feed doesn't worry me so much but it's the getting him to sleep that's such hard work!


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## lysh

Maidelyn- I would hang in there a little longer and just keep working on a bedtime routine. By sticking to the same bedtime routine my LO eventually went to sleep much easier. She still wakes up a whole lot, but usually goes down within a half hour (that includes nursing time).


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## Noelle610

maidelyn said:


> What age can you start sleep training? My LO is only 7wks so I don't want to start something too early but I'd also like some sleep!! Most of the time he'll do one stretch of 3-5hrs (from midnight usually) and then a couple more hours but the biggest problem is getting him off to sleep.... he fights it so much it can take an hour or two although I'm wondering whether that's because he's awake too long. Today for instance he's only had a couple of 30min naps since 0930 until we took him out for a drive at 1730 to try and get him to sleep.

He's too young right now :) It actually sounds like he is doing great for 7 weeks! A stretch of 3-5 hours is beautiful. Charlotte was always hard to get to sleep, too, but that passes as they get older and you learn the "tricks" and their preferences. Do you have a swing? Do you swaddle? Both of those things helped us so much in the early days? I also used a Rock-n-Play Sleeper from Fisher Price, which was a life saver - it really cradles the baby so that they feel secure and safe, unlike a crib or even a moses basket that's flat and and spacious around the sides.


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## maidelyn

We use a swing when he won't settle in our arms/on the boob but don't swaddle. I've spent most of this afternoon trying to settle him and he's finally napping (walk in the pram at 1 - complete failure, nursing, then rocked him to sleep and put him in his cot and got a 30min nap, then rocked him for about 30mins and jut put him down in his pram in the hallway.....:wacko:).

To top it off my SiL's friend has done contented little baby so I've had chapter and verse from the family today on how we should do that and OH has been agreeing enthusiastically....... it's basically controlled crying isn't it?


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## Boo44

Hi ladies I'm looking for some advice :)

LO had developed yet another cold/cough type illness since yesterday with high temps which has put him right off his food. When your LO hardly has any bed time bottle what do you do? Just leave over night as usual, or wake for a 'dream feed' at 11pm ish? I've not had this problem before! And don't really want to fall back into night feeding, as we haven't done that (touch wood) since 14 weeks. Obviously though because he's ill I don't want to do anything wrong!

Another q is - when LO isn't ill etc - I appreciated the advice re earlier bedtime in an attempt to eliminate his random but persistent early wakings but I've come across a problem! LO only really likes to have milk/food 4 hrs apart and doesn't really get hungry (is quite fussy with milk as I've posted about before). 
Currently he has bottles and food around 7.30am, 11.30/12, 3.30pm and 7pm before a bed time around 7.30pm (often more like 8pm by the time he's asleep)

If that 3.30pm bottle is much later he has less at 7pm. I'm trying to make his bed time 7pm but I'm really struggling with bringing the bedtime bottle time earlier! Noelle I remember you said your LO is fussy too but you brought her bedtime forward - how did it affect her bottles?

As my LO doesn't usually have night feeds I may be more concerned than average re how much he takes....


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## Aimee1003

Coming off another bad night. He has quit going to sleep easily like he used to. Last week or so he cries when laid down drowsy. He used to just roll over and go to sleep. Bedtime is at 7:30 and I didn't get him down til 8:45. He woke up 3 times when I laid him down. That hasn't happened for months.

Then he woke up at 12, 2, 4, and up for day at 7:30. Each time he wakes up it takes 30- an hour to get him back down
. I am so glad I work in the school system and am off this last week and next otherwise I would be a mombie because I would have to get up at 6 am for work. Getting to sleep in with him to 7:30 really helps.

Anyone have any theories on why he is waking up so much??? He sttn until the 4 month sleep regression hit him (it hit late-5 months) . He started waking up 3-4 times a night for 6 weeks. Last 4 he was back down to 1 wakeup. Now since last Monday, he is back to 3-4. Could it be teething? I don't see any teeth buds...


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## MiniKiwi

Bananaz, Mia goes to sleep around 8pm these days and I'm asleep by midnight. A few months ago, I used to go to bed with her at 6:30pm :haha:


We've had so much inconsistency. The night before last we had four hours awake in the middle of the night :coffee: and then last night she sttn :saywhat: She went to sleep at 8pm, woke at 11pm because OH and I were squealing about a huge spider in the house haha! Then I fed her and she slept until 6:30am. Amazing. Tonight is probably going to be another totally unpredictable night but at least we're home from visiting family now so can get back to a bit of a routine.

I hope you all had a lovely christmas!


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## Shadowy Lady

Boo - when my LO was sick last she slept more during the day and woke up more at night. I fed her each time as she was sick. She went back to normal once she recovered from the cold.

Aimee - I wish I knew! My LO is more or less consistent but she also hasnt gone back to the amazing sleeper she was before. Like sometimes she give me a 6 hours stretch some other times she's randomly up at like 11 pm :/ We're thinking of putting her to bed earlier (her current bed time is 7:45 pm).

Minikiwi - yay for sttn! Hope it becomes a regular pattern :)

I slept 10 straight hours last night as my DH was in charge of night feedings. I still don't feel amazing as my cold is pretty bad. I've lost my voice, ears hurt really bad and can't stop coughing. DH said Sofia was up at 2 am and then again at 7 am. I'm gonna take half of the night off tonight so hopefully I can be in better shape soon. Sofia looks a bit sick too so I need to have more energy to deal with that soon.

Hope you all have a great night.


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## lysh

I wish my DH could do night feedings.....I wish lo would not refuse bottles at night. As a working mom now it is wearing on me. Last night was a battle as she woke up every 2 hours or less. I let her fuss a bit the second half of the night and she did resettle but I am still awake watching the monitor. If DH could help more it would take all the pressure off of my shoulders.


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## NotNic

Finlay sttn (roughly 8pm - 7am) with an 11pm dream feed from 8 weeks, though we never sleep trained as such. He naturally went longer as he got older and we introduced a bedtime routine very early on around 4 weeks. We needed to do this to deal with the colic. I also tried not to put him down asleep if I could help it as I read somewhere that it is good to encourage them to go to sleep on their own and to self soothe. 7 weeks is definitely not too young to help them wind down in time for bed. 

Naps wise though it took much longer for him to get the hang of napping, rather than getting exhausted and passing out.


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## bananaz

*Aimee* - My LO went through a similar pattern (regression at 5 months, down to one waking for a bit, then suddenly waking 3-4 times a night). I still don't really understand what happened but it does seem to have gotten better for us, so hopefully it will for you too!

*Shadowy* - Yay for sleep, but I'm sorry you're not feeling well. I hope the rest helps you recover :hugs:

*MiniKiwi* - Haha, what the heck? Well that's awesome! Hopefully this is the start of a trend.

*lysh* - I can sympathize, it's definitely tough being the only person handling all of the night wakings. Does she only wake for food? Maybe you can designate a shift for your husband when LO has recently eaten so you can go to sleep without worrying about it? When my girl was sleeping really horribly my mom came over to help for a couple of nights and she took over all of the wakings from bedtime until midnight. This not only gave me a solid predictable chunk of sleep, but it also helped LO learn that she didn't need to eat to go back to sleep (when I went into her at night she always wanted to nurse!)



My LO kind of sort of almost slept through last night! Well she actually woke 3 times but she settled herself each time without any intervention on my part :happydance: Unfortunately she decided to get up for the day at 5am but I actually felt rested for once so I didn't really mind.

I've been getting a lot of pressure from my family and my therapist to increase her solids, so I've started giving her three "meals" a day. I hate to say this, but I think it may be helping. I mean, she went almost 11 hours without eating! Or it could just be a total fluke, and I'm trying to create logic where there is none to make myself feel better :haha:


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## Aimee1003

Wow Bananas!! Congrats! Coleton only woke up 2 times last night. The first time he was up 1.5 and was very unsettled. I gave him tylenol and he slept 4 hrs straight. I haven't had 4 hrs straight in a week! So maybe he is teething!!!

I wonder if we should up Coleton 's solids? He gets 1-2 meals a day. He is under weight so the Dr said solids are for fun but main nutrition should be breastmilk because it has more calories (I know that is for all babies but with C they do not want solids to replace any breastmilk) . We are not allowed to him any other liquids either the entire first year- no water or juice.


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## Aimee1003

Probably should mention he is underweight due to a medical reason before someone assumes I don 't feed him...lol


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## Noelle610

Boo44 said:


> Hi ladies I'm looking for some advice :)
> 
> LO had developed yet another cold/cough type illness since yesterday with high temps which has put him right off his food. When your LO hardly has any bed time bottle what do you do? Just leave over night as usual, or wake for a 'dream feed' at 11pm ish? I've not had this problem before! And don't really want to fall back into night feeding, as we haven't done that (touch wood) since 14 weeks. Obviously though because he's ill I don't want to do anything wrong!
> 
> Another q is - when LO isn't ill etc - I appreciated the advice re earlier bedtime in an attempt to eliminate his random but persistent early wakings but I've come across a problem! LO only really likes to have milk/food 4 hrs apart and doesn't really get hungry (is quite fussy with milk as I've posted about before).
> Currently he has bottles and food around 7.30am, 11.30/12, 3.30pm and 7pm before a bed time around 7.30pm (often more like 8pm by the time he's asleep)
> 
> If that 3.30pm bottle is much later he has less at 7pm. I'm trying to make his bed time 7pm but I'm really struggling with bringing the bedtime bottle time earlier! Noelle I remember you said your LO is fussy too but you brought her bedtime forward - how did it affect her bottles?
> 
> As my LO doesn't usually have night feeds I may be more concerned than average re how much he takes....

When Charlotte was sick recently we offered a dream feed and fed on demand when she woke. We don't do night feeds anymore either. We were doing a dream feed for awhile, but we stopped over Christmas mostly out of laziness and she slept right through it! Anyway, she did not seem to want night feeds even after we gave them when ill. In fact, she woke from teething I tried feeding her to soothe her back to sleep and she refused. I know feeding at night when ill causing problems for some, but that wasn't our issue.

When do you offer solids? I typically offer the bottle first (Charlotte is fussy with her milk too and prefers food!) and then solids an hour later. This seems to work well. At night, she will have two bottles closer together. her days go something like this: 

7am - bottle
8am - breakfast
10am - bottle
12pm - lunch
1pm - bottle
4pm - bottle
5pm - dinner
6pm - bottle


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## Noelle610

Hi ladies. So Charlotte had been sleeping beautifully the past week or so. She did great in New York over Christmas and slept through the night the past three nights at home! Naps have been excellent too with a 90 minute one in the morning and afternoon with minimal fuss. I'm probably totally jinxing myself, but I do hope this offers up some hope for those of you that are struggling.

Last night was awful though! C had a fever of 102 and just could not settle. It was odd because she was in a great mood all day and had no other symptoms - no cold, tummy ache, nothing. She went down easily at 6:30pm, but then woke 45 minutes later and wouldn't sleep until midnight. She then woke at 2am, 4am and 5:30am for cuddles. She did sleep in until 7:30am and is now napping at 9:30am. I think it's probably just a virus. We're going to see how she does tonight and if she isn't better take her to the doctor. Luckily my mom is here to help!

I wanted to add that we do three "meals" a day and the introduction of heavy solids has seemed to improve Charlotte's sleep. I know it's said that's untrue, but we've seen the opposite here. I don't know if it's because she is filling up during the day (she much prefers food to milk) or because it's helped her reflux. I also noticed she began sleeping better once I switched from combination feeding to all formula. Again, I know it's considered a myth that formula helps babies sleep longer, but I'm wondering if there is a connection for us. Perhaps I was eating something on a regular basis that was bothering her? I always fed breast milk at night assuming it would help her reflux. Just some observations.


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## bananaz

Aimee1003 said:


> Wow Bananas!! Congrats! Coleton only woke up 2 times last night. The first time he was up 1.5 and was very unsettled. I gave him tylenol and he slept 4 hrs straight. I haven't had 4 hrs straight in a week! So maybe he is teething!!!
> 
> I wonder if we should up Coleton 's solids? He gets 1-2 meals a day. He is under weight so the Dr said solids are for fun but main nutrition should be breastmilk because it has more calories (I know that is for all babies but with C they do not want solids to replace any breastmilk) . We are not allowed to him any other liquids either the entire first year- no water or juice.

I was concerned about solids replacing BM too which is why I hadn't increased the amount before (also because I'm lazy, haha), but so far her nursing hasn't been affected as far as I can tell. To be fair she doesn't eat massive quantities - at most she'll have maybe 1/2 of a jar of pureed veggies or fruits at a "meal." In the mornings I give her rice cereal made with breast milk since I figure that's an easy way to sneak some extra milk and calories into her diet. I also always make a point of giving her the solids after a breastfeed so that she's filling up on milk when she's actually hungry and the feed isn't replaced.

Congrats on having a better night! It does sound like it could be teething-related, so hopefully it will be over soon and in the meanwhile you can manage his discomfort with Tylenol :)


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## bananaz

*Noelle* - So sorry to hear Charlotte isn't feeling well again :( I'm glad you managed to get her down for a nap. Hopefully whatever she has will be gone by tonight!

Last night was one of the best nights we've had in a long, long time. Elsie went down at 6:45pm and didn't wake up until 3:45am! 9 freaking hours! More amazingly, I was in bed asleep for 7 of those hours :happydance: She did try to get up at 5am again but I left her in her crib and she actually went back to sleep until 7am after playing and fussing for a bit.

Someone should probably kill me now, I'm pretty sure we're not going to have a night this good ever again lol


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## Aimee1003

I think I will call the nutritionist and have her give me a set amount of solids to feed him. All this guess work is killing me. In his case, what is too little, what is too much??? He is gaining though so that is good.

Bananaz- wow! 9 hrs! That is awesome. And sleeping in til 7!!!!!

Noelle- sorry C is feeling poorly but I am glad her sleep is mostly better. It has been a long road to get there!!!

Did yall read the studies I posted about babies this age not sttn? It made me feel so much better.


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## MiniKiwi

Bananaz! That's awesome :D You must feel like a new woman after 7 hours straight. Interesting what you mentioned about the solids too, I'm going to offer Mia more food I think. She's BLW and has 2 meal times but tbh at dinner time she'd sit and eat for an hour if I let her. She's SO into food!

Noelle, sorry Charlotte is sick again :( but it really does sound like you've turned a corner since you started this thread! I hope she's better soon and keeps sleeping away!

I'm honestly shocked by Mia these lat few days/ weeks since she got out of hospital. I'm lying next to her now, she took herself off to sleep after 20 minutes of looking at her hands. No bouncing or walking. She's so inconsistent so I won't get my hopes up but something has really changed lately. Those months of rocking all seem worth it if she's learned to sleep by herself now. Btw, is this considered self soothing? If I'm lying with her? I don't care, just curious :)


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## libbylou

Sadly solids never made a difference for us. We do BLW but LO is very efficient and eats a lot...not kidding, one night she ate more lasagna than I did!! I was like wow I wonder if she'll sleep better tonight? Yeah no she was up after 2.5 hours that night :wacko:

Last night was friggin awful. 
DH and I went out for dinner and I spent the entire time worrying that LO would wake up and scream the house down while my friend was watching her (I've never left her with anyone other than DH and my mum and even that is rare, so it was tough to leave!). 
She slept while we were gone, but woke up 20 mins after we got home (after 3 hours of sleep) and screamed for 3 hours unless I was rocking her or patting her back while she lay on her tummy in the crib...except I threw my back out and can hardly move so mostly she just screamed...she finally screamed herself out at 1:30am :wacko:

Both of her naps have been horrendously short today and I'm ready to cry (ok I've totally already cried like 3 times today), all I wanted was a nap while she was sleeping but clearly that's not going to happen


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## Larkspur

Eight wake-ups last night. That is all. :cry:


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## MiniKiwi

Aww Larkspur :hugs: it does get easier. At it's worst, we were rocking Mia to sleep for 4/5 hrs a night and up to 3/4 hours during the day. It was honestly tough. We're (touch wood) coming through it now and I'm so glad we didn't sleep train (no judgement at all to anyone who does! I know how hard it all is, I just really didn't want to). You will get through it, I hope it doesn't last long for you guys


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## Shadowy Lady

Bananaz - so happy for your and Elsie :) You deserve the rest mama...hope things stay consistent! Got my fingers crossed for you.

Noelle - so sorry Charlotte is sick again. But happy at least you have help. Sometimes I really hate winter and viruses. We're all sick in this house too :(

Minikwi - Glad Mia's self soothing. That's honestly the best step imo, haha! Once they learn it, you know they won't forget :D

Larkspur - awww sweetie I'm so sorry :( It will pass though hun. We had a few nights of soooo many wakups I couldn't even count. It did pass though, just make sure you have DH help around the house. That's the only way I managed tbh.

Libby - so sorry to hear about your night and especially your back :(

We're having mixed nights here :/ First of all, I've been putting Sofia to bed at 7 pm instead of 8 pm and she seems to prefer it. Since I've been so friggin sick, I had DH help with the night feeds for the last 3 nights. For this past 6 days, she's been waking up only once (between 12:30-2:00) for a feed and then down again till (6:30-8). But then yesterday she got sick as well so last night was rough. I was in bed with earache and woke up every time Sofia woke up even though I slept downstairs. She probab was up 7-8 times :(

I hate when babies get sick, it's like everything is out the window :( Gave her some baby Tylenol last night and this morning and now she's napping in her swing. My cold is lingering forever too coz I don't seem to get enough rest :(


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## lysh

Baby girl is actually napping in her crib :happydance: so after starting my turkey meatballs, I am allowing myself to sit down and catch up a bit! 

Noelle- Yay- so glad that Charlotte (other than getting sick) seems to have turned a corner with sleeping. I am crossing my fingers it sticks! I know how unpredictable these babies can be, but you figure one day it has to stick for the majority of the time!

Bananaz- I do the same thing with solids- I feed LO after a breastfeed (or soon after). That is what my pedi recommended. I am so glad to hear you got a good, long, rest!!! Is that the first she went that long???

MiniKiwi- That is great your LO is starting to self-soothe. My girl is still inconsistent- a few times she shocked me and went to sleep after being put down into the crib drowsy, but a majority of the time she still wants to nurse. I have not been as strict with the whole self-soothing stuff yet...I am going to give her a little bit more time (at least until she is a full 6 months, then start working on it a bit).

Larkspur- :nope: So sorry- I hate nights like that. I am hoping that does not happen again for you this evening!!!! Mama needs a break!

Libby- I am so sorry- I never relax when I am out for the evening because I am so worried with how LO will handle it that I do not even bother now! I am sorry it ended up being such a crazy night after having a nice dinner out (minus the worrying!).

ShadowyLady- I hope everything gets back on track- it sounded like your LO was doing such a good job!!!!! Sickness, teething, learning new skills, it all just causes such a regression!!!!

So two nights ago, my girl had a great night!!! She woke up twice, but had a 6 hour stretch in between and then did not wake up until 7!!!!! That is huge- we are usually lucky if she sleeps until 5. Of course, that is the one rare good night we get with her, as last night she was up every hour and a half. A few times she resettled back to sleep after fussing for a bit, but it was still no sleep for mom and dad. I am getting sick again too. :nope: This winter, my DH and I are constantly getting sick! It is crazy. I honestly blame it on the lack of sleep keeping our immune systems down, plus being a teacher I am around germs all day! 

Anyways, it was interesting reading about the solids. My pedi had us start some at around 4 months. Now we are up to 3 times a day. I feed her solids after a BF. I notice that the days she eats more solids she actually does seem to sleep better. The night she slept for 6 hours straight, she ate a lot that day. It could be a coincidence, as my LO does not seem to fit any pattern for long, but I will continue to test out the theory. Today she is being a picky eater. 

Happy New Years everyone! Anyone doing anything fun? My fun will be getting to sleep at a decent time and hopefully getting a long stretch before LO wakes up! :haha: We are party animals these days.


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## Noelle610

Lysh, my fun will be some of the same :)

I HATE winter and bugs, it's awful! Charlotte is still sick with a cold and was up hourly after midnight last night and up for the day at 5:30am. Of course our humidifier broke that day, so DH is out getting a new one now - hopefully that helps her stuffy nose.

I have to admit, though, since Charlotte started sleeping better and I finally got some medication to help my insomnia, I've found these hard nights easier. My anxiety isn't quite so bad and I know that there will be relief in the future.


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## bananaz

*MiniKiwi* - I don't know if it "counts" but it's definitely a step in the right direction! For Elsie, self-soothing was a very gradual process. Initially I had to bounce her all the way to sleep, then I was able to bounce her until she was drowsy and shush-pat or sing her the rest of the way to sleep in her crib, and after that I started putting her straight into the crib with no bouncing and would just shush or sing her to sleep. Now I can put her down wide awake at bedtime and she'll go to sleep on her own with minimal fussing, though I still have to pat her to sleep at naps. So IMO progress is progress, whether or not she's all the way there yet!

*libbylou* - Oh honey, I'm so sorry. Having a horrible nap day after being up all night is just the worst. I hope today has been better for you both.

*Larkspur* - Aw, any idea what was going on? Teething? Wonder week? :hugs: Hang in there! 

*Shadowy Lady* - I'm glad the earlier bedtime is working for Sofia, I hope she gets over her illness quickly (and I hope you do too, poor thing!). This thread has made me so scared for my LO to get sick

*lysh* - Yay for good naps and nights! I hope she keeps it up for you.


We had another good night - down at 7pm (which was way too late, she'd already been up for 4 hours) and up at 2:20 for a feed. She was up again at 5, and honestly I have no idea what happened during the next hour before I got her up for the day. She was making noise off and on but when I looked on the monitor she was usually lying down like she was asleep? Anyway, I didn't have to get out of bed until 6:15 so I consider that a win! :happydance:


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## lysh

Noelle- I am sure once better nights become the norm it does lessen anxiety. Right now good nights are still rare,

Bananaz- Glad you had another good night!!!


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## Aimee1003

Worst night in a while. Up at 10:30, 2:30, 3:20, and up for day at 5:30!!! I thought babies were supposed to sleep 10 hrs at night. He got only 7!!! I tried for 1.5 to get him back to sleep when he woke up at 5:30. I don't function well on 5 hrs sleep!!!! Omg! Please pray that he starts sleeping again b4 I go back to work next Monday...


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## Aimee1003

Oh and Noelle- I had /have postpartum anxiety that caused insomnia. It is a real thing. I couldn't sleep at all after he was born. I was so nervous. I would watch the clock and count down how many hrs of sleep I could get if I fell asleerp. 5. No now 4. Now 3. It was horrible. I started taking Cymbalta and within 2 days I was sleeping. I can't imagine have insomnia now. I only got 5 hrs sleep last night and that was with falling right back asleep after a wakeup.


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## Noelle610

Aimee, it is so real and so awful. I did the same thing counting the hours. I've been taking zoloft for two weeks now and I feel like a new person. I also have klonopin for when it's really bad, but I've found that since the zoloft kicked in I haven't needed it much. The first night I got the perscription, I resisted taking it - I don't like meds that are mood altering. I was awake until midnight after going to bed at 8pm. At midnight, but husband convinced me to take a pill and that he would care for Charlotte if she woke. At 12:05am I said to him, "It's not working!" and at 12:10am I was asleep. That night was a game changer for me. I felt like a new person the next day.

Aimee, on Colton's sleep - what time does he go to bed? I agree it sounds like he isn't getting enough sleep. Do you think he's overtired? We had some success moving Charlotte's bedtime back. Even if she seems tired at 5:30pm, I put her to bed. Interestingly, it's very rarely resulted in an early waking. Sometimes I think she just needs the extra rest.


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## lysh

Aimmee- I know how you feel- my LO is having such a regression right now and I go back to work tomorrow. :sleep: That alone is giving me anxiety! I honestly think that is why I have been sick most of this winter season so far. 

So LO had a terrible night again. She is not resettling well either. She is regressing with naps too....does not want me to put her down. It would be nice if I could hold her for all of her naps, but I can't. I did it for the first 4 months of her life so she could have that needed security as a newborn, but it is not feasible right now. I am wondering if it is because I have been home for 10 days- I don't know. She is exhausting us though. 

She pretty much has taken a half hour nap (which required a half hour of crying) since 5:50 this morning. It is now almost 11. Now we have to go to my MILs to see family who we have not seen in a long time (first time meeting baby girl) which means her afternoon naps will be messed up too. 

Okay, done venting. I am just feeling done in today- trying to find the humor in the situation all morning but after her last half hour meltdown I am just done. ugh:nope:


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## Aimee1003

Noelle- bedtime is between 7 and 7:30. Usually he sleeps until 6:30 or 7 and gets 10 hrs after factoring in wake ups. This last 8-9 days something other than a regression is going on...teething, maybe..A couple of nights he wakes up shiny and I can't get him back to sleep for a while. He will nurse, pull off then whine and nurse some more.
I am glad u are on medicine. There is nothing wrong with taking it!!!

Lysh- I see you work in the school system as well. My LO went on a nap strike for me over the last 4 weeks. He just came out of it...he would only sleep 30 minute naps when I was home but slept 3 plus hours for my husband. I chalked it up to object permanence.
Coleton is just in a full-on nighttime regression. He is not self-settling at all anymore and our sleep training has been fully reversed. Oh well.


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## lysh

Aimee- Yes, I am a teacher.....thankfully LO finally went down tonight after two attempts. She as getting to a point where she would unlatch herself from my nipple and then I would place her in the crib and she would be fine. Lately, the minute her back hits the mattress she is screaming. Thankfully tonight only took 2 tried. I feel like mine is regressing too- all the sleep training seems to be doing nothing right now as well. I just do not have the energy to start over with it at the moment! UGH

Well, I am praying LO goes easy on me tonight since I start back at work tomorrow. My head has been pounding ALL day. 

Wishing you all restful sleep!


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## Shadowy Lady

Ughhh the cold has messed up with Sofia's sleep and we're back to 2-3 feeds per night. She's looking better today so hoping we can get back on track tonight :/

Ipad is dying I'll log in again soon to catch up with everyone. Happy new year!


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## Noelle610

Baby colds are the worst for sleep! Charlotte has been waking herself up coughing. Also, I went to her around 3am last night and she was on all fours rocking back and forth and crying with her eyes closed! Poor thing, practicing in her sleep. I rocked her for a few minutes and she quickly calmed down. Darn these developmental milestones.

I'm getting scared of this so called 8/9 month sleep regression. Just as things are getting better for us, I fear something else is around the corner. Anyone else? I think it has to do with these crawling/pulling to stands milestones, though, and is a true regression unlike the 4 month one where baby's sleep permanently changes.


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## Shadowy Lady

Aimee - I've suffered from anxiety most of my life but I got worse after baby. The first thing affected is of course my sleep. Right now I'm on melatonin and it works most of the time but not always. My doc is on leave till Monday but after that I wanna make another appt to see what can be done for me in terms of medication :(

Lysh - good luck to u hunnie! I think with babies it's more persistent on our part that makes them accept to sleep a certain way. That's what I did with Sofia and so far at least she goes to sleep ok (even if she does wake up through the night. Hope you have a great night :)

Noelle - totally agree! I'm actually a winter kinda person and love the cold weather but not since having a baby. We were doing so great and then bam Sofia catches a cold :( she still only woke up twice but it was just to cough and cry and not to eat :( hope this phase passes for both of us soon.

I'm starting to put Sofia in her crib for naps. I tried today at 10 am and she just fussed and after an hour, I got her out, played with her and then put her down again after 30 mins. This time I put her in her Woombie. She's been napping now it there for an hour which is the longest she's ever napped in her crib. I know I need to break the Woombie habit at some point but for now I like that she can nap somewhere other than living room.


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## Aimee1003

Shadowy- Congrats on napping in the crib. Huge step. C still naps in the swing. We will tackle that one day...eventually. but for now it is fine. Cymbalta works great for physiological anxiety. It is great. I wish I could do melatonin but it is not compatible with breastfeeding.

So our nights just keep getting worse and worse. He woke up at 9:45. Went back down at 10:20. Woke up at 10:25 and wouldn't go back to sleep again til 12. Same story as night before. Whined and cried when I rocked him. Pulled off the boob whining. Then he woke up at 3:30and 5:30. Luckily he slept in til 8:30 but if I was back at work I wouldn't have been able to go back to sleep after the 5:30 wake up. I would have only gotten 4 hrs sleep. I am so scared to gp back to work. I cannot function on that little sleep.


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## Noelle610

Aimee, have you thought of doing some sleep training for the night wakings, like a refresher? I know you mentioned you did it before, but it might be worth a try. If your other efforts to soothe aren't working, perhaps C is ready to do it on his own? \

I'll never forget a time around 4 months old when Charlotte was so overtired and screaming and crying as I tried to rock her to sleep. I placed her in her Rock-n-Play, where she was sleeping at the time, just to catch my breath... and she promptly fell asleep! I guess you wouldn't really call that sleep training, but she was definitely ready to settle herself and didn't want my intervention.


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## Shadowy Lady

Aimee - no Melatonin should be ok. I ebf also and it's supposed to be safe. I've been taking it for a month now and know many other moms who take it every single night and bf'd too :D

I agree with Noelle on some kind of sleep training. I don;t think training is once for all kinda thing. Every once in a while babies may need a refresher.


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## mrsbeano

Hi Girls! Have been busy busy over the festive period but just got all caught up and it seems that a few of the worst offenders have been being quite good :thumbup:

We have just been poorly and travelling so pretty unsettled and lots of night wakings. Also lots of night feeds but attributing that to the 6 month growth spurt. Fingers crossed its a short phase. He settled himself without a peep tonight which usually bodes well. xx


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## Aimee1003

Shadowy- My Dr said no to melatonin but just looked it up via the Infant Risk Center and it seems ok. The % that passes into milk is high but no negative effects on baby. I use this site a lot. I used it to figure out which anti-anxiety med I wanted.

https://www.infantrisk.com/forum/showthread.php?310-Melatonin&highlight=melatonin

Noelle-We cannot night train. I did bedtime b4 and it seemed to help but in last 2 weeks he has not gone down by himself at bedtime. I am getting ready to try again. It is just emotionally draining. We have to feed him if he wakes at night. Doctor's orders due to his weight problems.


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## libbylou

*Aimee* oh man you're having a rough time of it right now :( Hard to deal with the constant wakeups when you have to feed LO every time he wakes. When you can get them back to sleep without that feed I find it kind of breaks the constant wake up cycle a bit. 

*Shadowy* - we had to swaddle LO until she was around 4.5-5 months because she didn't lose her startle reflex until then. Luckily when we started to transition her it was pretty smooth. Congrats on the crib naps! I was so happy when we were able to get LO napping in her crib because it gave me a break to clean the house or have a shower or even try to nap myself!

Last night was great and terrible at the same time. Great because LO went down easily and slept FIVE HOURS (longest stretch she's done in 2 months). But terrible because she then woke up and refused to go back to to sleep for two hours :dohh: I spent two hours trying everything to settle her (even taking her to bed with me didn't work). Finally settled her back in her crib which was lovely because normally she is in bed with us by that point. She slept another 4 hours (YAY!!!) and then came to be with us from 7am-9am so I even got to sleep in!

Of course tonight she has already woken up within 20 mins of going to sleep and screamed hysterically for almost an hour unless I was patting her back while she lay on her tummy in her crib, not fun because my back is still messed up and bending over her crib is super painful.

I'm not sure we'll see any issues with developmental milestones because LO's been able to crawl and sit for ages and has been pulling up and walking along things for a couple of weeks now and it doesn't seem to have made her sleep any worse than it was before...maybe it was already so bad that it couldn't get any worse? :haha:

Also...is it just me, or do you ladies want to defriend people you know whose babies actually sleep. Most of my friends babies don't have sleep issues and it kinda makes me want to kick them especially when I hear "I just put her down and she goes to sleep and sleeps for 12 hours with one wakeup at 3am for food" :wacko:


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## Larkspur

Another eight-wake up night last night. Not sure what to blame it on... could be holiday disruption (trip to inlaws house for three nights), the humid weather, noise (loads of fireworks over New Years), the infamous Wonder Week 19, or a combination thereof. Am just soldiering through. Good luck to all for tonight...


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## Aimee1003

Libby- your good night sounds like most people's bad nights.lol. And yes I hate hearing how everyone else's baby sleeps so well.

Larkspur- 8 wakeups??? Wow. How long does it take u before u are back in bed?

Last night was the best night in last 2 weeks. He woke up at 9:45. He was back asleep by 10 and didn't wake back up until 5:30!!! Of course I have been up since 4:30. I had to check on him but the main issue was my breasts were so engorged. I usually sleep on my side and it was hurting me....oh well. Maybe when he is done nursing, we will go back to sleep.


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## Noelle610

Larkspur, that's rough... how old is your LO?

Aimee, I think doing bedtime again could help. Maybe talk with your ped? I'm sure it's important you feed at night if your LO needs to gain weight, but I'm sure he could tell you what a reasonable amount would be (i.e. twice a night but not ten times a night). And I took melatonin while breast feeding - it should be fine. Basically every medication says "ask your doctor if nursing or pregnant", but it's just a precaution. You could also try "Simply Sleep", which is basically Tylenol PM without the Tylenol and also safe.

Libby, nice long stretches should be reassuring! 

MrsBean, sorry about the inconsistency! The 6 month growth spurt is a big one. I bet it passes soon.

My night was okay. Charlotte has a terrible cough that's keeping her up, but nothing unmanagable in the least. I was able to get a solid block of sleep between midnight and 6am so I feel okay today, despite having a cold.


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## bananaz

*libbylou* - The two hours awake is horrible, but the rest of the night sounds pretty awesome! Sleeping in until 9 must've been great. I always wished my LO would do a second longer stretch of sleep but once she's up the first time she almost always wakes every 2 hours after that.

*Larkspur* - Ugh, awful :( How do you resettle him? Hopefully he goes back down quickly?

*Aimee* - That's a seriously amazing night! I sympathize with you about the engorgement though, I had the same thing last night, it does make it hard to sleep!

*Noelle* - Aw, when is your poor kid going to catch a break? Can you give her anything to help with the cough? I feel so lucky that Elsie hasn't gotten sick yet, but I'm sure it's only a matter of time.


The past two nights haven't been the best ever, but they're not bad at all compared to how she used to be or what some of you are going through now. She's been waking around midnight for some reason, and then last night she also woke at 1am because of some idiot yelling outside :growlmad: Then she woke at 3am and I immediately got up to go nurse her but by the time I reached her room she was already settling herself, much to my surprise. It took her almost a half hour of tossing and turning, but she finally went back to sleep and stayed down until 6am. Unfortunately I don't feel rested at all, thanks mostly to the hot flashes that now seem to be happening all night every night right now. Ugh.


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## Shadowy Lady

Libby - I know what u mean about friends whose babies sleep, lol! Luckily only two moms I know have babies that sttn since 3 weeks (or so they claim) and for some reason they won't shut up about it! Yesterday I saw one of them at the playgroup and she's like "so how's Sofia sleeping these days? William slept 12 hours last night!" Almost wanted to punch her :growlmad:

Larkspur - awww honey :hugs: I have a feeling the noise might be a big factor. Btw we're also going through ww 19 :(

Aimee - congrats on a great night! And damn boobies that happens to me to everytime Sofia has a good night!

Noelle - glad your nights are still ok. Hope the cold passes for both of you guys soon.

So our nights are still hit and miss. For the past 2 nights, Sofia goes to sleep within seconds with no fuss at 7 pm. However, she wakes up at 11 pm. She's not hungry or cold, but she cries and nothing soothes her :( it goes on for an hour or so and she gets more irritated when picked up. So finally I offered the breast after an hour and she sucked for like a min and fell back asleep. I know she's not hungry, so why does this keep happening?

Typically after that she sleeps till around 3-4 when she actually wants to eat and this time goes back to sleep right away. Is this WW19, teething or what? I'm totally at loss...it may also be her messed up nap since she's learning to nap in the crib and missed a nap yesterday...

I'm exhausted today...only had 3 hours of broken sleep :coffee:


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## Noelle610

Bananaz, hot flashes? Yuck! Glad to hear that Elsie is settling herself.

Shadowy Lady, we sometimes have a few days of an early waking for no reason and I don't know why. Sometimes I think it's from being overtired, but I'm not sure.

Charlotte being in daycare has really made her sick often. As much as it sucks, I'm kind of just accepting it as inevitable. My pediatrician said this happens to all kids at some point, just earlier for those in daycare. They have to build their immune system some time. For many, it's kindergarden, but for us it's now! Unfortunatley there's nothing that can really be given for a cough over the counter for a young baby, so you just have to wait it out.


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## Aimee1003

He slept in until 8 am. Wow!!!!
Noelle- I actually did not feed him at the 9:45 wakeup. I decided not to feed him if it is before midnight. I will feed him for any wakeups after that. I know he us not hungry that soon!! He is all the way up to the 11% in weight. From the 0%. So we are doing well. C had RSV that hung on for weeks. The cough was horrible. After 10 weeks of coughing (no joke) his pedi gave him a 4 day dose of steroids and it cleared it right up!!!

Bananaz- Do u use white noise? That helps us a lot with noises.


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## jessicatunnel

Hey ladies! Man, does it feel good to be back! I haven't gone through everyone's updates but will when Lil's goes down for her nap. 
We just got back to NC from TX late last night. We were there for about two weeks and traveling loads trying to see everyone we could before we had to go home. 
If you can't remember, Lilly was sleeping about 9-4/ 9-5 for a good five or six days straight right before we left. Well, her sleep has gone to crap. 
She's had multiple night wakings, I'm talking like every hour. It's been hell pretty much, I'm exhausted, she's exhausted, and we just want our sleep again! Her naps have also only been 2 a day for 30 minutes, OR LESS. :dohh:
On top of that, she's been sick for like three weeks now, and she cut her first tooth a few days ago, and I see a bulge next to that one so think another might be coming through soon. 

We resorted to bedsharing for about two days and she slept brilliantly but I just get so uncomfortable when we bedshare. 
Last night was the first night back in her bed and she slept pretty good, only woke up twice. 

I'm hoping we can get her back into her routine, and being back in our own home again will help her sleep better again. I was so disappointed to have gone 1000 steps backward after making HUGE progress, but I guess that's to be expected when you have a baby. 

Oh, and her hair is long enough for a pony tail now! Not sure how that is relevant to sleeping but I was just so excited. :D


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## Noelle610

Jessica, when I saw your photos on Kitty's thread, I immediately thought Lilly was getting a tooth! It sounds like the illness, teething and traveling are just a trifecta of disruption for sleep. I bet things get back to normal very soon. Going from waking every hour to only two wakeups is a good sign. Coffee and hugs to you!


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## jessicatunnel

Why can't it just be ONE thing at a time that affects sleep? Why does it have to be multiple things at once?! I have no idea how to get her cold to go away, we have a dr. appt. on the 8th. I'm hoping they can help us and not just send us on our way telling us to ride it out, I've been riding it out for three weeks!
Poor baby has a runny nose and a horrible cough. :(

She's still been her happy self, thank goodness, and she's trying to crawl now (throw that on top of all the things ALREADY keeping her awake).


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## Noelle610

jessicatunnel said:


> Why can't it just be ONE thing at a time that affects sleep? Why does it have to be multiple things at once?! I have no idea how to get her cold to go away, we have a dr. appt. on the 8th. I'm hoping they can help us and not just send us on our way telling us to ride it out, I've been riding it out for three weeks!
> Poor baby has a runny nose and a horrible cough. :(
> 
> She's still been her happy self, thank goodness, and she's trying to crawl now (throw that on top of all the things ALREADY keeping her awake).

I really sympathize! I guess at least we're getting it all over with at once? :haha:

Charlotte is the same now...Sick and trying to crawl. I found her rocking back and forth on all fours during a night waking recently, with eyes closed. Like she was practicing in her sleep! Teething seems to be on a temporary hold. 

I hope the doctor can give you something. Do you think Lilly could have an ear infection? When Charlotte was waking hourly a few weeks ago, that was the culprit. It cleared up soooo quickly with antibiotics. She got an injection (she was throwing up, so couldn't do it orally) and went from waking hourly one night to sleeping from 7pm to 3am the night night, having a feed, then down again until 7am.


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## Larkspur

Last night we improved to six wake ups... Fortunately the turnaround on each is short - he wakes and either feeds properly (twice), comfort suckles quickly and falls asleep, or can be quickly cuddled back to sleep. The longest turnaround was 15 minutes from pickup to put down, the shortest 8. He will go back down not totally asleep, so he just needs the reassurance of a cuddle. Shhhh-pat just winds him up. Unfortunately I couldn't get back to sleep between the 2am and 3am wake ups, but I feel a bit better than yesterday. I also only have 2 hours of work to do today instead of six, so can have a nap in the afternoon... 

Seems like the classic four-month regression, am just hoping it will be over soon! He was quite a good sleeper before this!


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## Boo44

Jack also has an ear infection now! Poor baby. He's on antibiotics as of today so hopefully that helps. He's pretty constipated as he's hardly been eating so is really uncomfortable x


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## Noelle610

Boo44 said:


> Jack also has an ear infection now! Poor baby. He's on antibiotics as of today so hopefully that helps. He's pretty constipated as he's hardly been eating so is really uncomfortable x

Poor baby, they are the worst! 

We have struggled so much with constipation. Have you tried some diluted pear juice? I give 2 ounces of water and 2 ounces of pear juice and it seems to help. Prunes work too. If you need something really strong, I've given LO a little miralax and it works wonders... not sure if you have that in the UK, or something similar!


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## Boo44

I concentrated on water as usually I don't actually give him any, just his milk. He's managed to go a bit today so that's an improvement!! Thanks for the tips xx


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## Noelle610

Boo44 said:


> I concentrated on water as usually I don't actually give him any, just his milk. He's managed to go a bit today so that's an improvement!! Thanks for the tips xx

Glad he's had some relief! I've started doing water regularly now. I wasn't before, but now we're fully formula feeding and doing solids, so I understand it's more important to keep them "regular" :flower:


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## libbylou

*larkspur* ugh the constant wake ups are so exhausting. DH always tells me just to go to bed when the baby does if I'm tired but he totally doesn't understand that waking up constantly really screws you up. Doesn't matter if you were lucky enough to get 6 or 7 total hours of sleep if it was only an hour at a time!

*aimee* oh I totally remember the engorged boobs. When LO was 6 months we did sleep training and she went from sleeping 45 mins at a time (and needing to be nursed back to sleep every time she woke) to sleeping 2-5 hours at a time...my poor boobs didn't know what to do!

*bananaz * love when they manage to resettle themselves! a lot of the time I'll hear LO start crying so I'll either hit the silent button on the monitor (mutes it for 2 mins) or get up to go to the bathroom and she's already asleep by the time I go to get her

*jessica* that's tough to go from good sleep to bottom of the barrel again. Funny how quickly it happens too. Hope you can get Lilly back into a decent sleep schedule

Last night was frustrating
LO went down without a fuss. Then woke up 20 mins later and spent almost an hour screaming while I tried to settle her. The only thing that calmed her was patting her back while she lay on her tummy in her crib, but she wanted me to do it forever and my back is still messed. Finally got her to sleep after 30 mins straight of singing and patting while she lay in her crib
Then she slept 4.5 hours (YAY!!!!) and woke up at 1am...and didn't go back to sleep until almost 3am...again refusing to settle even in our bed. DH and I ended up getting in a huge fight at 2:30am. 
Her first nap today was only 30 mins...I went to try to lie down hoping DH would deal with her as he's off today, but he ignored her when she woke up crying so I had to get up and deal with her. I could beat him right now.

I am SO SICK of the middle of the night waking up and refusing to sleep for 2-3 hours. 
I have no idea what to do about it and it's never been a problem until the last few weeks.
I'm half tempted to just shut off the monitor and let her sort herself out because nothing I do works...I wouldn't actually ignore her, but in the middle of the night when she's screaming and I'm exhausted it's seriously tempting.
We try everything...rocking, nursing, patting, shushing, singing, taking her to our bed, letting her cry for a couple mins at a time and then resettling her...nothing works!!! It's like we have to go through everything and basically just let her exhaust herself while we try to get her to sleep.


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## Shadowy Lady

Libby - srsly? That must be so tough! I have nothing but sympathy for u :( Do you think she may be suffering from earache or something? or maybe teething? 

Nap time success for us! Third nap of the day in the crib. The first one was 2 hours, then we had another one that was 1 hour and now the last one (she's been down for 20 mins).

I know technically I'm cheating coz she's in a Woombie...But at least she's in her crib! I've ordered a Baby Merlin Magic Sleepsuit and will start putting her in that when it arrives so adios Woombie in a week or so.

Anyone tried one of these sleepsuits? One of my friends swears by it...


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## Noelle610

Libby, my DH is the same! He doesn't understand how I could be "tired" since I am "in bed" for long-ish periods of time (I generally go to bed an hour or two after baby).

Shadowy Lady, I don't think the Woombie is cheating! I think Bananaz swaddled Elsie for quite some time? Maybe she can comment on the sleep suit or something similar.


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## bananaz

I never tried the magic sleepsuit thing but I have heard good things. I hope it works well for you! And I don't think the Woombie is cheating at all. I tried one with Elsie but it was too loose for her, she really needed to be immobilized. Fingers crossed that since Sofia is already used to having some freedom of movement in the Woombie it will be an easier transition for her.

It's looking like it's going to be a long long night for us here at Casa Bananaz :( LO has been a screamy, temperamental terror for the past week and today it was worse than ever. She got a total of an hour and a half of naptime all day and she woke from her second nap really early so she ended up being awake for almost 5 hours before I finally got her to sleep at 6pm. On top of that she completely refused all of her solid meals - the minute the spoon touched her lips she started screaming. 

I don't know if this is the wind-up to wonder week 37 or teething or what, but if she sleeps well after the day she's had then I officially give up on trying to influence her sleep because it's clearly random. (Just kidding, I'm way too much of a control freak to give up even in the face of overwhelming evidence that my efforts are futile...)


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## bananaz

*libby* - That is so tough. I've gone through similar phases with my LO, and it often seemed like it really didn't matter what I did; she just needed to be awake for a certain amount of time before she would go back down again. Sooo frustrating! 

How long are you waiting before going in? Do you have a video monitor? I've found being able to watch my LO has been super helpful for night wakings because I can see when she's trying to resettle herself vs. when she's getting wound up and upset. Now I've made a rule of waiting for 10 minutes before going in at night but usually by minute 5 I can see on the monitor that she's already trying to go back to sleep on her own, even if she still sounds fussy. I think that before I was actually keeping her awake longer by going in there to soothe her.

Anyway, I obviously have no idea if that's what's going on with your LO or not, but given how many methods you've already tried I don't think it would be awful to give her a little extra time and see if she settles herself :flower:


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## libbylou

shadowy - I used a Halo Swaddlesack and then transitioned LO to an "arms up" swaddler (Love to Dream swaddler) which gave her a bit more freedom with her arms and then after a few weeks just put her in a regular sleepsack. By that time she had lost her startle reflex and the arms up swaddler helped the transition. I don't think it's cheating to use the woombie if she still needs it, some babes need it a lot longer than others

Noelle - sometimes I go to bed at 8pm and don't "wake up" until 8am...yet somehow only manage to get like 6 hours of broken sleep in there between my anxiety induced insomnia and my sleepless babe. DH is like but you were in bed for 12 hours, how come you're so tired? :dohh:

bananaz - hope you have a decent night. I know how frickin hard it is to have a crappy night when you've had a crappy day too :(


> "Just kidding, I'm way too much of a control freak to give up even in the face of overwhelming evidence that my efforts are futile"

Agree, 100%. Sometimes I wonder why I even bother, but I just can't stop myself!

I don't think LO is teething, haven't seen any of her usual signs.
Not an ear infection or anything the dr could find
I usually wait around 5-10 mins before going in. We don't have a video monitor but she tends to have a very distinct cry after the initial couple mins of crying and I can tell if she's winding down or escalating.
Tonight if she does it again I might just try to bring her straight into bed instead of trying to get her back in her crib to see if that helps instead of trying to settle her into her crib first and then bringing her to bed when that fails


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## socitycourty

so I'm 7 months in and it still feels like torture. i feel bad i don't enjoy the time as much as i "should" because i'm so damn tired.

my health is suffering, my IBS and anxiety have flared up very badly, it's awful.

i may have to resort to CC or CIO because i'm losing it:cry:


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## libbylou

You've done amazingly well to last as long as you have!
We did sleep training at 6 months because LO and I were both exhausted and miserable.
You don't have to do CIO or CC. You can find a method that makes you feel as comfortable as possible if you're going to sleep train.
Have you looked into the No Cry Sleep Solution? Sadly didn't work for us, but every baby is different

I'm sure you've seen my posts about what we did, but in case not...we had a bedtime routine (which we had been doing since 3 months). 
Normally I would nurse or rock her to sleep, but with the sleep training I would put her down awake and sit in a chair next to her crib, offering comfort based on her level of upset, until she fell asleep on her own. Yep, she cried. But I was there with her comforting her so she wasn't alone and within a few days we saw drastic improvement. 
Obviously her sleep still sucks or I wouldn't be in this thread, but its WAY better than it was. At least now it doesn't take 1-2 hours of us both crying to get her to sleep and she doesn't wake up every 45 mins anymore, she does nap decently in general (in her crib) and she does settle herself sometimes instead of needing me every single time

Big big hugs, do your research and if you decide to sleep train, find something that works for you and makes you comfortable.


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## jessicatunnel

Well ladies, we had an AWESOMELY, AMAZING night. 

I had a little trouble getting her down to sleep, she just wouldn't stay asleep, so she didn't end up going to bed until 8pm. 
THEN.

................

She slept 8pm to 7am!!!!!
I gave her a bottle at 7, and she went back down and woke up for the day at 9am.

I'm so happy, I never thought this day would come!
I'm sure it won't be like that tonight, but hey after all the traveling and restless sleep, I needed those solid 11 hours of sleep. I feel so renewed and energized this morning. :D

:happydance:


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## bananaz

*socitycourty* - Big hugs to you, I think it's safe to say that everyone on this thread can sympathize! Like libbylou said, if traditional CC or CIO make you uncomfortable there are a lot of ways you can modify it to fit your family and have it still be effective. In addition to the No Cry Sleep Solution book, I would definitely recommend reading Ferber's "Solve Your Child's Sleep Problems" book. Even if you don't use his gradual waiting method, he has a lot of really interesting insights on sleep that I found useful.

*Jessica* - Holy cow, that's amazing! An 11-hour stretch! Here's hoping it's the first of many.


So after a horrible day in which Elsie ate no solids, had half the naptime she should've, and went to bed terribly overtired having been awake for 5 freaking hours she woke up... once. After almost 10 hours of sleep. Making it one of her best nights ever :dohh: 

On the one hand it's awesome and I'm so glad she slept well but on the other hand WTF? Does anything that happens during the day actually matter or is it really totally random? I'm going to go ahead and rationalize this by saying that all the screaming she did yesterday made her extra tired, because I need to keep pretending there is some kind of logic here.


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## Aimee1003

So last night was bad. It took us almost 2 hrs at bedtime. I tried everything...nursing, rocking, CIO. He finally went down at 8:45. I stayed up until 10 to get some time with hubby. C woke up at 12:15. Very fussy, finally got back down at 1:05. Woke back up at 1:10. Rocked to sleep til 1:30. At this point I made a pallet on his floor and slept in his room because I kept hearing "phantom cries" on the monitor when there was not any!!!
He woke up at 4:30 fussy again. Tried everything and got him back down at 5:40. Up again at 5:50. Down at 6:15 and up for day at 7:15. I am shattered. Going to call the Dr. All this is really unusual for him. Maybe he has an ear infection...

We tried to referberize him last week but he cried 1.5 hrs nonstop for 3 nights until I gave in each time. When we did sleep training the first time he responded well with 45 min first night, 30 second, 5 minutes third night and that was it. I have no idea what is going on now but I emotionally cannot let him cry like that again.

To everyone : It seems that we all have dealt with anxiety -induced insomnia. I think that it must be a normal reaction to being woken up so often and then dreading the next wakeup.


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## socitycourty

will check out the books.....i don't think i could do CIO as i listen to so much crying already. i expected less sleep and etc, but not like this. also find that people don't have much sympathy it seems. worst thing to hear is "what did you expect?" well, not CIA level torture!

i feel terrible as i find mysef envious of other people's babies. my sister has a hard night if my niece gets up once or twice!

i can't help but think this is my fault somehow by holding her too much, by BF too much in the beginning, by not BF now, i don't know


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## Noelle610

Jessica, that is SO awesome! Glad you got a good night's sleep, too.

Bananaz, I am totally with you on not seeing the pattern on days that lead to a good night's sleep. Charlotte STTN last night with no wakeups (7pm to 6am) and it didn't make sense - naps were not good (90 minutes in the morning, 45 minutes in the afternoon and 15 minutes in the late afternoon), she ate virtually no solids and less formula than usual and she is sick. What's the rhyme or reason there? I am grateful, though, because I have a cold and was able to get a good night's rest. I only woke up once, at 2am - brilliant for me! 

Libby, I'm sorry for those super long night wakings. I find those to be the most frustrating. How is your LO's napping during the day? Could she be getting too much daytime sleep?

Aimee, sorry for your trouble as well. It must be so frustrating that sleep training worked well and is fruitless now. I wonder if something else is going on. Have you talked to the ped? It must be frustrating because I know your LO was sleeping so well before!

Socity, sorry to see you here! I know you're struggled with sleep like we all have. I totally second Bananaz's recommendation for the Ferber book. In addition, I really like "Healthy Sleep Habits, Happy Child" by Dr. Weissbluth. It's very science-y and a little confusing in parts, but there is a chapter (4, I think) on post-colic kids and it's great. You don't really have to read the book cover to cover. He does advocate CIO, but also gives other methods that are more gentle that you might find appealing. He also talks about getting LO on an age-appropriate daytime schedule which can help nights improve.


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## Shadowy Lady

Socitycourty - I used Ferber's book to teach Sofia to self sooth and it worked quickly and was the best decision I've ever made. I'm a big fan of Ferber now and don't know why he gets a bad rep. 

Bananaz - glad you guys had another great night :) and don't analyze it too much just enjoy it 

Jessica - yey for more good nights! Hope u get some more rest.

Libby - well Sofia doesn't have the startle reflex anymore I think she's just used to the Wwombie and associates it with sleep. She can move her arms under it though so I'm inclined to keep her in there for a few more weeks.

Noelle - glad Charlotte is still doing well. How are you sleeping though?

We've fallen back into the old routine of one wakeuo per night which is good. She sleeps at 7 pm, up for feed between 12-2, then asleep again till around 6-7 when I bring her to our bed and we nap till 9:30 or so.

Question for you guys: once your LO started teething, how long did it take for the tooth to show up? Sofia's been teething 4 weeks now but the last couple of days she's been extra miserable. Last night I gave her Advil which helped. Just wondering how long this phase might last :/


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## Noelle610

Shadowy Lady - I'm actually sleeping better these days! I went to bed at 8:30pm and only woke up ONCE last night at 2am, to blow my nose, pee and check on Charlotte. I even slept in until 6am (LOL). Wish I wasn't sick so I could enjoy it! The medication is helping immensely. I also took Tylenol Cold PM last night, so sure that helped. What's odd is that I do still feel sleepy. Not horrifically terrible like I did before, but still just kind of tired. I think it's from 7 months of sleep deprivation and also maybe getting *more* sleep than my body is used to at this point. 

On teething - Charlotte seemed to teethe for weeks before her first tooth popped through, but the second came quickly without much fussiness or sleepless nights. I've heard from other moms that the first is the worst until the molars, as they kind of "get used" to the sensation and are more easily distracted.


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## libbylou

Jessica and bananaz - glad you ladies had such an awesome night! 

aimee - that's a tough night :( When LO has those nights I am so glad we cosleep because when she does the hourly waking the cosleeping saves my butt
I know the anxiety induced insomnia is partly "when is this kid going to wake up again" but I'm also dealing with PPD related anxiety which makes it even worse. Sometimes I lie in bed for an hour or two just worrying about dumb obscure stuff like what if we have an earthquake and the retaining wall behind our house falls into LO's room and I have to dig her out :dohh:

socity - I was worried about the crying too because LO already cries so much. But I was honestly surprised. The amount of crying she did about sleep times pre-sleep training FAR exceeded the amount of crying during the sleep training period.

Noelle - she tends to have either 3 short naps (30-45 mins each) or two longer naps (about an hour each), so she's not napping ridiculously long during the day

shadowy - I think it took about a week before LO's first tooth came in and the second tooth followed within a week, she's only got the two so far. She does still go through periods of teething (crying, rubbing her face, chewing on everything and drooling a ton) where no teeth show up

Last night was so so. She went down fine and slept 3.5 hours. I did decide to take her straight to bed with me at that point instead of trying to resettle her in her crib and risking another 2-3 hour wakeup. She settled into bed but did squirm around a lot and popped on and off the boob for like an hour and then spent most of the night nursing so it wasn't much of a comfortable sleep for me. Put her back into her crib at 5:30 because she woke up and wouldn't settle, she took a half hour to settle back to sleep and then stayed down until 8. So yay for no long wakings last night, but boo to crappy disturbed sleep because she was nursing so much


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## bananaz

*Shadowy* - My LO seemed to be teething on and off for months, but she only had a couple days of clinginess right before the actual teeth came through. To be honest I usually just give her a dose of ibuprofen before bed when she's had an extra cranky day and it does seem to help, but it's so hard to tell what's going on when they won't let you look in their mouths!

*libby* - Ughh, big hugs to you, I can't imagine trying to cosleep with my baby at this age. I hope she's sleeping better for you tonight.


So it's 4:30am and we're both having trouble going back to sleep right now :\ LO is on her third waking and she keeps fussing and rolling around trying to get comfortable. I wish I could help her get to sleep faster but I know if I go back in there it's only going to make things worse. And now I only have 1.5 hours of potential sleep left as a best case scenario. Bleh.


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## Noelle610

Ugh Bananaz, I hate that feeling of "I only have xxx amount of time to sleep".

Charlotte slept through the night again last night. I'm worried she's waking and I'm just not hearing her now that I sleep well! But my DH assures me I would hear her if she needed me.

She is usually a great napper and refusing her first nap right now, though, so I'm really frustrated and of course worried about how it will affect the rest of the day.


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## jessicatunnel

Bananaz, that's tough. I also hate when I look at the clock and only have a short time to sleep. Makes it that much harder to GO to sleep in my case!

Noelle, that's awesome! I feel the same, I worry I'm just not hearing her, but nothing has changed, I keep her door closed, ours open, and the monitor off and before I've been able to hear every cry so surely she's actually sleeping through, right? 

She slept through again last night! YAY! Two night's in a row, that's a new record!
7:15pm-7am, gave her a bottle, and down again until 9:30am.

She had one 3 hour long nap yesterday, and she slept the whole time we were out for dinner last night (2 or so hours), went straight down when we got home without a fuss and stayed asleep. :D


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## bananaz

Wow, two babies sleeping through! That's really encouraging to see. I've been planning to try and gradually eliminate Elsie's 3am feeding to see if she'll sleep through, but last night at her first waking I ran in there half-asleep to nurse her, not realizing until I got back to my room that it was only 10pm. So instead of eliminating a feeding, I added one. Genius :dohh:


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## Larkspur

Shadowy, Noelle, Jessica, glad you're all doing better again! 

Libby, I'm another one impressed that you can co-sleep. My guy is a kicker and puncher, I can't get any rest with him. Strangely, he sleeps like a log in his own cot. :shrug:

Bananaz, hang in there! :hugs:

We're doing a little better. Last two nights have only been three wake ups. I've given up really trying to figure out why things change from one day/week to the next, and am moving on to just being grateful when they improve! However I have had him back in a sleepsack the last two nights despite the very warm weather (instead of just a light vest) and he also sat unsupported for about 20 seconds yesterday. Hoping to get down to just two wakings tonight!


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## Aimee1003

Glad to hear that some of the babies are improving. Watching the clock makes me so anxious...

So I took LO to the Dr yesterday. No ear infections. She thinks it is a combo of teething and hunger. Ergh. When I am at work, Coleton takes fortified bottles of breastmilk made to be 27 calories an ounce rather than the normal 20. I feed like normal when home. This usually works out fine on weekends but I have been off the last 2 weeks so LO has only been nursing. Dr thinks his body is used to the extra calories and he is waking at night to compensate. Makes sense. Especially since the one night we had okay sleep was the day he went to daycare... Oh well. I go back to work Monday so we will test the theory.


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## Larkspur

Aimee, no help, just sympathy from me here... although it's good to hear your LO is not ill. But mostly I just wanted to say WHAT AN AMAZING BABY NAME. Coleton, SO cute!


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## Aimee1003

Larkspur said:


> Aimee, no help, just sympathy from me here... although it's good to hear your LO is not ill. But mostly I just wanted to say WHAT AN AMAZING BABY NAME. Coleton, SO cute!

Thank you. It is nice to just have a spot to vent. I know DH gets tired of listening to the same old complaints. I just hate thinking LO is hungry. I am glad you like the name. I love it.

I am glad ur nights are a little better. Here's to the day we get to sleep again!


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## libbylou

LO is usually ok to cosleep with (not as good as when she was a newborn though), other than the fact that she nurses pretty much nonstop which makes it a light disturbed sleep for me so I'm often waking up a bit to position her or whatever. 
She does tend to get restless now (started a few weeks ago) so we play musical beds and put her back in her crib when she gets restless

Last night was atrocious. I'm so tired I could puke
To sleep at 8:15 (a bit later than usual but only by about a half hour)
Wake up at 10:30. Let her cry 5 mins to see if she would settle. Was in full on hysterics by the time I went in there.
Cue two hours of crying. The only thing that calmed her was patting her back firmly and rapidly while shushing and while she lay in her crib. I'd do it for 20-30 mins until my back was hurting too bad to continue and then hope she was asleep and stop and she would wake up, look at me and start screaming again. (this is pretty much what she does whenever she has these stupid middle of the night refusal to sleep parties)
Finally took her to bed at 12:30...she took about a half an hour to settle so I didn't get to sleep until 1am. By this time I had been bawling for over an hour and was ready to walk out the door.
She started to get restless at 4:30. 
Got up and moved her to her crib at 5:30am because I'd been mostly awake for the last hour trying to settle her...she didn't go back to sleep until 6am
Started making noise at 7am which woke me up, and she got up for the day at 7:30am.
So I got maybe 3.5 hours of broken sleep with her in bed...and another hour with her in her crib


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## socitycourty

Also had an atrocious night. I actually was so upset that I yelled, then cried, "FFS, let me sleep!" she of course just looked at me and then continued fussing. I felt awful by 6 a.m. but the lack of sleep is making me a little nuts. We are bedsharing still as well but it needs to change.


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## Shadowy Lady

last night we had 3 wake up calls. One at 12, then at 2 and then again at 5 am. But the 2 am and 5 am she wasn't hungry she had just pooped:dohh: ughhh I hate when that happens in the middle of the night.

Her naps have been great today. I'm pretty exhausted and hoping tonight will be a better night. Either way I'm going to bed at 9 pm the latest to at least get some rest before she wakes up:sleep:


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## MiniKiwi

Aimee, glad to hear LO isn't sick. I think it's so important to have them checked just incase, after my LO was sick and the doctors missed it. I always worry about babies being sick now and nobody figuring it out..another thing to be anxious about...other people's sick babies!

Larkspur, glad to hear things are improving. Three wake ups isn't bad at all, though it still feels bad when you're used to a baby who sttns!

Jessica, so stoked for you and Lilly. What an awesome couple of nights :happydance:

Noelle, so happy to hear you're finally managing to get some rest :hugs: 

Libby and Socity, HUGE :hugs: I hope you guys catch a break soon. Hang in there (as much as possible!)

We had a bad night last night and the night before. I'm so impressed so many of you manage to keep track of wake ups and times etc. I actually have no idea how many times Mia woke last night.. just that it was many! I'm like an absolute zombie when she wakes up. I know she woke an hour or so after I got to sleep and those ones are the worst, I can't function LOL!

When she decides to have long wake times in the night I just put her in our bed now so she can be awake and I can be half awake. I woke to her pulling my hair at about 5am haha. It will get better..it must!

:hugs: to you all


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## MiniKiwi

Shadowy, tell me about it huh?! Who can be bothered with pooey nappies in the middle of the night???


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## Shadowy Lady

MiniKiwi said:


> Shadowy, tell me about it huh?! Who can be bothered with pooey nappies in the middle of the night???

I wouldn't wanna change her at that hour but she's sooo uncomfortable she cries and screams so I have to:wacko:

Sorry Mia's been waking up a lot. I totally know what you mean being a zombie in the morning. What I find has helped is when Sofia wakes up at around 7:30 am or so, I just bring her to our bed, feed her there and we take a nap together. Usually I get a solid 2 hour nap then and am energized for the rest of the day even if the night was crappy....


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## MiniKiwi

bananaz said:


> And now I only have 1.5 hours of potential sleep left as a best case scenario. Bleh.

I hate thinking this way! I always just get up for the day if I have that little time left as I know I won't sleep thinking about it. Hope Elsie gives you a break. I love your new picture, she's such a sweetie :)


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## MiniKiwi

Shadowy Lady said:


> Sorry Mia's been waking up a lot. I totally know what you mean being a zombie in the morning. What I find has helped is when Sofia wakes up at around 7:30 am or so, I just bring her to our bed, feed her there and we take a nap together. Usually I get a solid 2 hour nap then and am energized for the rest of the day even if the night was crappy....

She wakes up for the day around 6am these days. She's seriously such a wild child, SO full on, chatting and constantly busy. There's zero hope of her going back to sleep after that 6am waking haha! I'm so thankful we're not rocking her to sleep any more though, I just have to keep reminding myself of that and that I shouldn't complain about anything she does so long as the no-rocking thing continues :)


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## bananaz

MiniKiwi said:


> She wakes up for the day around 6am these days. She's seriously such a wild child, SO full on, chatting and constantly busy. There's zero hope of her going back to sleep after that 6am waking haha! I'm so thankful we're not rocking her to sleep any more though, I just have to keep reminding myself of that and that I shouldn't complain about anything she does so long as the no-rocking thing continues :)

Same with Elsie - once she's up at 6am she's up! I can bring her into bed with me and buy a few minutes of lying-down time while she nurses but after that she's hitting me in the face, crawling over me, screeching, etc. 

It's awesome that you don't have to rock anymore. I just finally stopped bouncing her few weeks ago and it's been great, though bending over the crib and patting isn't a lot of fun either.


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## MiniKiwi

bananaz said:


> It's awesome that you don't have to rock anymore. I just finally stopped bouncing her few weeks ago and it's been great, though bending over the crib and patting isn't a lot of fun either.

Ha ha! Hope you can end with the patting soon then. Anything beats rocking imo! My 22lb LO was needing hours of rocking a day and some days I'd just rock and cry with frustration. Now I just lie down with her while she rolls about and yells and half an hour later with some shhhing and cuddling she drops off.. Oh my god, it's BLISS


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## Aimee1003

Mini and Bananaz- U think rocking was bad??? Lol.If Coleton won't go to sleep nursing, I have to stand up, hold him in a cradle hold, and jog in place. No joke... I tried every type of rocking. Didn't work. I did run until I was 30 weeks pregnant so I wonder...


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## bananaz

Aimee1003 said:


> Mini and Bananaz- U think rocking was bad??? Lol.If Coleton won't go to sleep nursing, I have to stand up, hold him in a cradle hold, and jog in place. No joke... I tried every type of rocking. Didn't work. I did run until I was 30 weeks pregnant so I wonder...

Haha that's awful! Hmm, maybe I should try to see if going on the elliptical puts Elsie to sleep?


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## MiniKiwi

Yeah when I say 'rocking' I mean in a cradle hold and pacing the house pretty quickly, but not running lol! Still a steady pace was the best method. Up to 9 hours a day though is how bad it got..sometimes bed time took 5 hours and then an hour + for her naps :wacko: I was going out of my mind


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## Aimee1003

MiniKiwi said:


> Yeah when I say 'rocking' I mean in a cradle hold and pacing the house pretty quickly, but not running lol! Still a steady pace was the best method. Up to 9 hours a day though is how bad it got..sometimes bed time took 5 hours and then an hour + for her naps :wacko: I was going out of my mind

Oh my!!! I would have gone crazy.


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## libbylou

MiniKiwi said:


> Yeah when I say 'rocking' I mean in a cradle hold and pacing the house pretty quickly, but not running lol! Still a steady pace was the best method. Up to 9 hours a day though is how bad it got..sometimes bed time took 5 hours and then an hour + for her naps :wacko: I was going out of my mind

You brave strong woman! My LO was taking up to 3 hours to rock/nurse to sleep at bedtime (except she mostly screamed while I tried to rock/nurse her) and I ended up sleep training at 6 months because the crying (from both of us) and lack of sleep (for both of us) was killing us!


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## jessicatunnel

Eeeeeek, Libby, socitycourty, shadowylady, minikiwi, so sorry you guys didn't get much rest! Big hugs! :hugs:


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## MiniKiwi

libbylou said:


> You brave strong woman! My LO was taking up to 3 hours to rock/nurse to sleep at bedtime (except she mostly screamed while I tried to rock/nurse her) and I ended up sleep training at 6 months because the crying (from both of us) and lack of sleep (for both of us) was killing us!

Yeah, it would have been SO much harder if LO cried but she mostly was ok, just sprung awake the moment I put her down or woke up 10 minutes later. We got vip treatment and our own room when LO was in hospital because the nurses felt sorry for me walking her back to sleep for 2 hours every time another kid in the room cried and woke her up lol.

I'll admit that I used to judge mums who sleep trained but not anymore after our experience, you just do what you have to to get by. LO's sleep was starting to affect my relationship with her and with my OH and we said when we got back from holiday we'd consider sleep training. Did she hear us? She stopped needing rocking while we were on holiday :haha:


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## lysh

lol...I had to laugh while reading what some of you ladies go through to get your LOs to sleep. I know during those moments NONE of us is laughing (probably crying inside), but one day when we finally STTN we might look back on these days and giggle a little. The things we go through for our LOs!!!!

I have lucked out the last few nights- Last night, LO woke up once at 11:30 and then again at 4:30- the breathing monitor went off because she rolled off of it. Who knows if she would have slept longer, that thing is freaking loud!!! I nursed her in hopes she would go back to sleep, but it was not happening. Like many of you, my LO likes to wake up early.


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## lysh

MiniKiwi said:


> libbylou said:
> 
> 
> You brave strong woman! My LO was taking up to 3 hours to rock/nurse to sleep at bedtime (except she mostly screamed while I tried to rock/nurse her) and I ended up sleep training at 6 months because the crying (from both of us) and lack of sleep (for both of us) was killing us!
> 
> Yeah, it would have been SO much harder if LO cried but she mostly was ok, just sprung awake the moment I put her down or woke up 10 minutes later. We got vip treatment and our own room when LO was in hospital because the nurses felt sorry for me walking her back to sleep for 2 hours every time another kid in the room cried and woke her up lol.
> 
> I'll admit that I used to judge mums who sleep trained but not anymore after our experience, you just do what you have to to get by. LO's sleep was starting to affect my relationship with her and with my OH and we said when we got back from holiday we'd consider sleep training. Did she hear us? She stopped needing rocking while we were on holiday :haha:Click to expand...

It is funny you said that, because I never thought I would sleep train either (other than using gentle methods) but every baby/situation is different and when dealing with severe cases where gentle methods DO NOT work (and honestly, even sleep training has not been a magic cure for us, but it helped a lot) we do what we have to do.


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## lysh

bananaz said:


> MiniKiwi said:
> 
> 
> She wakes up for the day around 6am these days. She's seriously such a wild child, SO full on, chatting and constantly busy. There's zero hope of her going back to sleep after that 6am waking haha! I'm so thankful we're not rocking her to sleep any more though, I just have to keep reminding myself of that and that I shouldn't complain about anything she does so long as the no-rocking thing continues :)
> 
> Same with Elsie - once she's up at 6am she's up! I can bring her into bed with me and buy a few minutes of lying-down time while she nurses but after that she's hitting me in the face, crawling over me, screeching, etc.
> 
> It's awesome that you don't have to rock anymore. I just finally stopped bouncing her few weeks ago and it's been great, though bending over the crib and patting isn't a lot of fun either.Click to expand...

I go through the same thing....when LO wakes up at 4:30-5, I bring her into bed HOPING she will magically go back to sleep! lol Does not happen- I get a few minutes while nursing and then she starts kicking, playing, cooing etc.! Then DH gets annoyed because at this point none of us are sleeping!


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## MiniKiwi

Yeah and it's very easy to judge/say you wouldn't do something when you haven't been in that situation. I so didn't want to do it but something had to change and thankfully for me, it happened by itself


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## libbylou

MiniKiwi said:


> libbylou said:
> 
> 
> You brave strong woman! My LO was taking up to 3 hours to rock/nurse to sleep at bedtime (except she mostly screamed while I tried to rock/nurse her) and I ended up sleep training at 6 months because the crying (from both of us) and lack of sleep (for both of us) was killing us!
> 
> Yeah, it would have been SO much harder if LO cried but she mostly was ok, just sprung awake the moment I put her down or woke up 10 minutes later. We got vip treatment and our own room when LO was in hospital because the nurses felt sorry for me walking her back to sleep for 2 hours every time another kid in the room cried and woke her up lol.
> 
> I'll admit that I used to judge mums who sleep trained but not anymore after our experience, you just do what you have to to get by. LO's sleep was starting to affect my relationship with her and with my OH and we said when we got back from holiday we'd consider sleep training. Did she hear us? She stopped needing rocking while we were on holiday :haha:Click to expand...

I probably wouldn't have sleep trained if she didn't scream the whole time! I seriously didn't want to, but we were both exhausted and it was seriously affecting me, DH and LO with the crying and lack of sleep. I too have learned not to judge :haha:
Sleep training was obviously not a magic cure for us, but it did greatly improve her napping and now she knows how to put herself to sleep so bedtimes aren't a tearful fight and she sleeps longer than 45 mins at a time


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## bananaz

libbylou said:


> I probably wouldn't have sleep trained if she didn't scream the whole time!

Yes, exactly! Bedtime and naptime have never been peaceful experiences no matter what method was used. I've only done a little bit of sleep training but overall there's been a lot less crying since she learned that she can go to sleep on her own.

In other news, I think I may have accidentally put LO to bed for the night at 4:30pm. Not good :nope:


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## jessicatunnel

bananaz said:


> libbylou said:
> 
> 
> I probably wouldn't have sleep trained if she didn't scream the whole time!
> 
> Yes, exactly! Bedtime and naptime have never been peaceful experiences no matter what method was used. I've only done a little bit of sleep training but overall there's been a lot less crying since she learned that she can go to sleep on her own.
> 
> In other news, I think I may have accidentally put LO to bed for the night at 4:30pm. Not good :nope:Click to expand...

I've done this a few times! Sometimes her naps get so messed up that she needs that last "nap" but then she ends up staying asleep and not waking up... Luckily, the few times I've done it she still slept until 7/8am. (Obviously with night wake-ups then)


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## libbylou

I'm lucky with the late naps...I've had LO fall asleep for a nap as late as 4:45-5pm and sleep as late as 5:45pm and still be ready for bed at 7:30-8pm!


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## bananaz

Yeah her sleep was all screwy today. Her earlier naps were only a half hour long which is why I had to put her down for a third one. Normally 4:30 would be a safe bet but I guess not today! I wouldn't mind that she stayed down for the night except that she wasn't in her pajamas, hadn't had her reflux meds, was wearing the wrong diaper, etc. Oh well.


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## Boo44

Oh bananaz that made me giggle inadvertently ending up with a baby down from 4.30! These babies are totally in control aren't they!!! And I do feel for you as those are all things I'd panic about too (eg nappy, sleep suit etc). You never know she may surprise you and have her best night yet!

I'm beginning to realise that no matter what time I put jack down he wakes at almost the same time every day. We had his grandpas party last night so he wasn't down til 8pm, whereas the night before he fell fast asleep on his bottle by 6.55pm (the earliest he's ever gone to sleep!). I fretted about that but he woke at exact same time both times. So now I'm aiming to make his bed time 7pm.... :)


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## Noelle610

Sometimes when Charlotte needs that third nap, I wake her after an hour or so so that she can have some awake time before bed and stay on her schedule. Yesterday afternoon she napped at 4:15pm, but I woke her at 5pm. It was actually kind of nice because she didn't go to bed until 7:15pm (she's usually a 6:30pm type of girl) and slept until 7:20am! It's like she knew it was Sunday :) She did wake up once last night around 2am, but just for a quick cuddle. All in all a good night.


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## mrsbeano

Noelle, I'm so pleased that Charlotte is having a good patch. I am also extremely jealous. 

We are in the middle of teething/crawling/sitting. RUBBISH!


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## aliss

I'm wondering at what age I can officially join in? HAH, looks like Philippe "sleeps" like his older brother :rofl: STTN at 2 years old, here we come!!1 :)


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## bananaz

Noelle610 said:


> Sometimes when Charlotte needs that third nap, I wake her after an hour or so so that she can have some awake time before bed and stay on her schedule. Yesterday afternoon she napped at 4:15pm, but I woke her at 5pm. It was actually kind of nice because she didn't go to bed until 7:15pm (she's usually a 6:30pm type of girl) and slept until 7:20am! It's like she knew it was Sunday :) She did wake up once last night around 2am, but just for a quick cuddle. All in all a good night.

Wow, that's nice! I can't imagine Elsie sleeping in until 7 these days. Normally when she takes a late third nap and goes to bed a little later she still wakes up around 5:30-6am. The only time she sleeps in is when she's up for a couple hours in the middle of the night. I miss the old 9pm-9am days!

Anyway, as it turns out last night wasn't too bad. She woke up at 8pm and I changed her clothes and her diaper and fed her and she went straight back down until 4am! Then another feed and she slept until 5:45am. I guess she just really needed that extra sleep.


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## bananaz

aliss said:


> I'm wondering at what age I can officially join in? HAH, looks like Philippe "sleeps" like his older brother :rofl: STTN at 2 years old, here we come!!1 :)

Uh oh. Well, I think you're allowed to feel hopeless early since you've been through it before! Just turn your ticker from weeks to months and you're good to go :haha:


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## bananaz

Boo44 said:


> I'm beginning to realise that no matter what time I put jack down he wakes at almost the same time every day. We had his grandpas party last night so he wasn't down til 8pm, whereas the night before he fell fast asleep on his bottle by 6.55pm (the earliest he's ever gone to sleep!). I fretted about that but he woke at exact same time both times. So now I'm aiming to make his bed time 7pm.... :)

Yep, the same started happening with my LO which is why I pushed her bedtime earlier and it's worked out really well. I don't think I can get away with a 4:30pm bedtime every day though, haha.


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## Aimee1003

Aliss- Bad sleep is bad sleep sister! Join on the fun.
Noelle/Bananaz- I wake Coleton up when he takes a late nap. 5:30 is the latest I let him sleep. It backfired on me last night. Couldn't get him down until 8:50! And I am way jealous of Charlotte's sleep. But way to go Elsie as well.

We fed C 6 oz of enriched breastmilk yesterday and still had a rough night. Ergh. I start back to work tomorrow so no more sleeping in or trying to catch a nap.
I know I complain but honestly LO is so much fun during the day. He laughs and giggles and is doing new things everyday. He just started splashing in the bath, knocking over blocks when I stack them, and playing peekaboo with me
All in all I will take wakey nights over the hell of colic we had those first 11 weeks. I need to just relax, realize this is my sleep for now, and enjoy him!


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## Aimee1003

Bananaz!!! Didn't realize Elsie and Coleton were born on the same day!


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## bananaz

Aimee1003 said:


> Bananaz!!! Didn't realize Elsie and Coleton were born on the same day!

Hey, another May 21st baby! Seems to be a popular birthday around here :)


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## jessicatunnel

We had a good night. Lilly went to bed at 7pm and slept until 4:45am, where I just had to shh her a few times, then went back down until 9am.

Noelle, it seems charlotte and Lilly are on a same sleeping schedule right now. Both sttn for two nights, both wake up once the next night, haha. 
They must be communicating.


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## aliss

I always had Alex in bed by 6pm sharp, if I was gonna have a crappy night every night, I might as well get in a few hours of alone TV time with OH before! ;)


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## Shadowy Lady

Ughhhh we're back to 3 wake up each night :( just when I thought things were getting better we're back to square one :(

We have Sofia's doc appt for 4-month shots this Thursday so I'll talk to her pedi about this then. Like last night she woke up at 9pm, 12:30 am and then 4:30 am and up for the day at 8 pm. I don't know why her first wakeup call is becoming earlier and earlier :/ and don't understand why she went from regressing to getting better to regressing again....

Jessica, Noelle and Bananaz, glad your LO's are sleeping better. Send some sleep dust my way :D

Aliss - join the "fun" hahaha! Hope you get some much deserved rest soon


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## MiniKiwi

Noelle! What an awesome night, you deserve this!

Jessica, so glad you're having a few good nights now. Long may it continue!

Bananaz, good to hear the accidental bed time went well in the end :thumbup:

Aliss, hoping you can catch a break. Two bad sleepers really isn't fair :hugs:

Aimee, I like your attitude. I remind myself of that too, Mia is so much fun during the day and generally in a good mood. It's great!

Shadowy, sorry you had a bad night. It's so frustrating trying to understand all that's going on with these LO's! I just try not to think about it now, it makes me a bit crazy! We have a great night then the worst ever two nights in a row, these babies just don't make sense!

We had a great night here. Bed at 7pm, up at 1am, up at 4:30am and it's only 5:30 now so she should be asleep for a little longer yet. I was 'up for the day' at 4:30 though :dohh:


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## Noelle610

Where to start? There's so much going on! 

Aimee, I'm sorry you're still having a rough time. I really do agree with you about our babies being so much during the day at this age, though. I was telling another mom the other day that the tough nights are easier to bear because I actually LIKE my daughter, as opposed to when she was a refluxy, colicky newborn. I loved her, but I certainly didn't like her all the time!

Bananaz, I've found the same is true with Charlotte... Her wake time is generally not to influenced by when she goes to bed. I'm of the same mindset as Aliss - I like having some alone time if the night's going to be crappy anyway!

Jessica, so glad to hear about another good night! I think Lilly and Charlotte are having much of the same sleeping experience. Are they texting each other? ;-)

MiniKiwi, another great night, wonderful! I'm sorry you were up early. That's been the story of my life until recently, so I sympathize. When I woke up this morning and saw it was 6:45am on the clock, I'd felt like I'd really slept in! It felt like noon did in college.

Shadowy Lady, I hope the ped can help you. Honestly, 4/5 months is such a hard time for sleep. I know it will improve for you with time. 

Aliss, I'm always happy to have you as a member of any group I'm in! That said, I was really hoping you'd have a different sleeping experience this time around :) That said, he's still so young! Lot's of time for things to change. It sounds like you're generally getting some more rest for yourself with bed sharing and breastfeeding, so that's pretty awesome.


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## libbylou

Sounds like a few of the babies are on the right track!

Shadowey - whenever I think LO is improving, she throws me for a loop and goes 5 steps backward. SO FRUSTRATING. 

Aliss - join in the fun! Hopefully Phillipe doesn't sleep as terribly as Alex did!

Last night was tolerable.
LO went down at about 7:30 and woke up at 10:30. Nursed her and got her back down at about 11. She woke up at 12:45. Took her into our bed. She took about a half hour to settle down to sleep. Woke up around 6am and I moved her back to her crib at 6:30 cuz she kept crawling around the bed. She slept until 9am which was SO NICE. 
She's not normally an early waker anyway, I don't know how I'd survive if she was up at 5:45-7am like some of your babes! For some reason she tends to sleep until 8:30-9am if she's in her crib in the morning and tends to wake at 7:30-8 if she's in our bed...no idea why because when she was younger she would only sleep in if she was in our bed

Wish I could say LO was a happy babe during the day, but often she's not. High needs little miss has a lot of meltdowns, cries and whinges a lot and needs to constantly be held or touching me. Usually when I'm on BNB, I'm sitting on the floor playing with her and trying to type because she usually won't play unless she's touching me :wacko:
When she is happy though, she is so friggin cute and just melts my heart.


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## Irish Eyes

Can I join please?!

My LO was an okay sleeper until about 6 weeks ago. He would wake between 1-3 times per night between 7pm & 6am. He got a cold and started waking about once an hour. However he's perfectly well now but his sleep is getting worse. For the past month he's been waking every 20 minutes or so. Occasionally I get a 2 hour stretch but that's rare. I'm exhausted :-( 

I keep telling myself this will pass but it's so hard. Really don't know what to do now!


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## Noelle610

Hi Irish! Sorry to see you hear. Charlotte slept really poorly after she had an ear infection, even after she recovered. I think they get used to the frequent waking and it becomes habitual. It did pass for us - hope it does soon for you too!


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## bananaz

*Irish Eyes -* Yikes, I'm sorry your LO's sleep is so disrupted right now :hugs: How are you resettling him at night? Does he at least go back down quickly? I hope it gets better soon!

*libby* - Glad you had a decent night, and I'm very jealous of your sleeping in! Mia sounds a lot like my girl in terms of temperament so I definitely sympathize. Having to be "on" and interactive every moment they're awake is totally exhausting, especially when they're constantly melting down and you can't figure out what the $&@! it is they want from you (most of the time I don't think LO even knows what she wants). My girl has had some periods recently where she will just crawl around and play with things for a while and it's awesome, but unfortunately those times are few and far between.

Sooo I think I accidentally put Elsie to bed at 4:30pm for a second day in a row :blush: I did my best to avoid putting her down at that time but there was no way around it, her first two naps were just way too short and I couldn't get her to take a third one any earlier.

I actually tried to wake her after an hour but she didn't budge, even after I turned on the light, so I figured she needed the rest and let her be. At least this time I had the forethought to put her down in pajamas with a nighttime diaper on just in case. I think she might be getting sick :(


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## MiniKiwi

Is it so bad that a little part of me thought how nice it would be if Mia went to bed at 4:30pm? :haha:

I hope Elsie isn't sick. If she sleeps through until 6 though, it's not that weird is it? A lot of kids seem to sleep 13 hours.. could that be when she needs to go to sleep for the night?


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## bananaz

MiniKiwi said:


> Is it so bad that a little part of me thought how nice it would be if Mia went to bed at 4:30pm? :haha:
> 
> I hope Elsie isn't sick. If she sleeps through until 6 though, it's not that weird is it? A lot of kids seem to sleep 13 hours.. could that be when she needs to go to sleep for the night?

Haha, yeah I guess when you put it like that it's not that weird, except she's always only slept 10-11 hours a night. Maybe she hasn't been getting enough though?

And I totally wouldn't mind if she decided to make a habit of the schedule she had yesterday. 4:30 seems like a crazy early bedtime though!


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## veganmama

my LO literally wakes up like 7 times a night but he doesnt just wake up with a little eh eh noise he like totally freaks out kicking his legs all about and and giving me a LOUD ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. 

lol. but my LO always wakes up crying (like angry) is it just mine that does that? it's kind of depressing, if he was going to wake up 7 times a night i wish he at least wake up happy (we co sleep btw)


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## Irish Eyes

He does normally go back down easily with a cuddle but tonight he won't be put down, he screams a minute later. I wouldn't mind if he would co-sleep but he won't do that either. He has to be up right on me to sleep :-( my hubby is off work for a few days at the moment which helps but he's going back Wednesday and will be working away for 10 days so it's just me & Lo! 

It sounds like some of you ladies are making more progress now. It's hopeful to see!


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## Aimee1003

This thread is now my sanity. Just took 75 minutes of nursing, rocking, and 4 lay downs to get little man to sleep. Did I mention we have company over? Ergh. But now I am positive he is teething. His diapers are mucousy and he is pulling off the breast and screaming then wanting right back on... I don't see a tooth yet but those are two major signs of teething.

Oh and Irish: every 20 minutes? Omg!!!

Bananas and Libby: I am so sorry that your LOs are demanding both day and night. That must be exhausting!


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## libbylou

bananaz - it is exhausting isn't it! I can't ever just rest, I'm constantly trying to ward off her crying and melting down...and when she's sleeping I end up trying to get stuff done around the house instead of resting because I can't do anything when she's awake because God forbid I'm not touching her and interacting with her at all times!!

veganmama - My LO wakes up screaming when she's in her crib but when she wakes up in our bed, she hardly makes a peep...I can usually feel her start to move and I just position her at my boob and she latches on and goes back to sleep. Tough when you're cosleeping and your LO is still having such rough wake ups!

aimee - oh no :( LO used to be like that at bedtime. We still have the odd naptime where it's like that. Today was like an hour of crying, rocking, nursing and trying to settle her into her second nap...and then she only napped for like 20 mins and was miserable for the rest of the night :dohh:
Teething definitely makes a huge impact on their sleeping and temperment, hopefully it doesn't last long!


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## MiniKiwi

Bananaz, Mia sleeps 11 or so hours at night too but I did think it was too little. I thought 12 was standard and then 11 and 13 would be somewhat normal too, surely? I'm obviously not an expert on baby sleep - my LO drove me mental for months trying to get her to sleep :haha: Though I do agree, 4:30 sounds like a very early bedtime

Veganmama, my LO doesn't usually cry when she wakes up. Her first waking of the night is sometimes a really horrible scream but imo that's cause she's still just really tired. Sorry you're having such a hard time :hugs:


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## libbylou

double post


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## libbylou

Irish Eyes said:


> Can I join please?!
> 
> My LO was an okay sleeper until about 6 weeks ago. He would wake between 1-3 times per night between 7pm & 6am. He got a cold and started waking about once an hour. However he's perfectly well now but his sleep is getting worse. For the past month he's been waking every 20 minutes or so. Occasionally I get a 2 hour stretch but that's rare. I'm exhausted :-(
> 
> I keep telling myself this will pass but it's so hard. Really don't know what to do now!

Oh jeez :wacko: I thought I was dying when LO was awake every 45-60 mins, I couldn't deal with every 20 mins. Poor you and your LO must be a miserable overtired mess too!
I hate to ask the dirty little question, but have you/would you consider some sort of sleep training if it doesn't change soon? Doesn't have to be CIO or CC, there are gentler methods if you aren't comfortable with those.

I've already almost had a mental breakdown tonight (again). 
LO went down at 7:30...woke up at 10:30 (I'd been lying in bed for over an hour trying to get to sleep by this point, yay anxiety induced insomnia!). 
Spent half hour nursing, rocking and cuddling her and then put her in her crib. She seemed quite asleep and then popped her head up, sat up, looked at me and started screaming...which is how almost all of her 2-3 hour refusal to sleep periods have started. I walked out of the room, promptly threatened to throw myself down the stairs (and very nearly did) and then threatened to walk out of the house and never come back.
It's now 11:25 and luckily she appears to have actually gone back to sleep but I'm so anxious and wired now that I doubt I'll sleep for ages :nope:


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## Irish Eyes

libbylou said:


> Irish Eyes said:
> 
> 
> Can I join please?!
> 
> My LO was an okay sleeper until about 6 weeks ago. He would wake between 1-3 times per night between 7pm & 6am. He got a cold and started waking about once an hour. However he's perfectly well now but his sleep is getting worse. For the past month he's been waking every 20 minutes or so. Occasionally I get a 2 hour stretch but that's rare. I'm exhausted :-(
> 
> I keep telling myself this will pass but it's so hard. Really don't know what to do now!
> 
> Oh jeez :wacko: I thought I was dying when LO was awake every 45-60 mins, I couldn't deal with every 20 mins. Poor you and your LO must be a miserable overtired mess too!
> I hate to ask the dirty little question, but have you/would you consider some sort of sleep training if it doesn't change soon? Doesn't have to be CIO or CC, there are gentler methods if you aren't comfortable with those.Click to expand...

LO is actually fine & playing away happily right now trying to chew my toes! He doesn't seem to be affected by the nights but maybe that's because he falls straight back to sleep when I pick him up? 
Last night hubby suggested we leave him 2 minutes instead of rushing to him. After one minute even OH broke and I went to get LO, he was so upset and had real tears everywhere! I think that's what makes it worse, it's not a moan or groan but he does real crying and is really upset. You can't touch him or talk to him without picking him up otherwise he goes crazy!

I guess I'm lucky that he's a happy baby during the day, sounds like you don't get a break in the day? His daytime naps aren't too bad, he has 3 about 45 minutes long in his crib.


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## Noelle610

Aimee & Libby, so sorry for your rough nights. We are here for you! Aimee, teething sounds likely. It seemed like with that first tooth Charlotte was teething for weeks! The second popped through with very little fanfare and I've heard that's common. So here's hoping it's a phase for you.

Veganmama, I remember you from third tri! Sorry you're joining us. Charlotte often wakes angry too.... although I'd be pissed if I kept waking up from a deep sleep ;-) I think it means they're tired, but need our help to get back to sleep. Who knows with these babies.

Irish, you mentioned your little man had been sick recently. Have you had his ears checked? I'm wondering if he has an ear infection. If he's waking sometimes after only 20 minutes, he's not even making it through a sleep cycle. Even if he had a sleep association problem or something, he'd at least make it that far. When Charlotte was up all night, it turned out to be her ears. It often happens AFTER they're sick and babies usually are fine during the day. It's the pressure when they lay down that hurts them.

Charlotte and I had an okay night. She woke once at 11pm, again screaming! Not sure what this is about. I just picked her up and cuddled her and she fell straight back to sleep in my arms. Bad dream? Separation anxiety? I'm not sure, but you won't find me complaining about one short waking. She would only take one nap yesterday, so I put her down at 6pm and at 7:15am she's still sleeping. I have to wake her to go to daycare.... hope she's not sick! Over 13 hours seems like a lot of sleep, but I guess she's making up for the lack of naps.


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## Irish Eyes

Noelle610 said:


> Irish, you mentioned your little man had been sick recently. Have you had his ears checked? I'm wondering if he has an ear infection. If he's waking sometimes after only 20 minutes, he's not even making it through a sleep cycle. Even if he had a sleep association problem or something, he'd at least make it that far. When Charlotte was up all night, it turned out to be her ears. It often happens AFTER they're sick and babies usually are fine during the day. It's the pressure when they lay down that hurts them

We actually went to the doctors at 9am as I thought the same! He has ear infections in both ears and possible asthma. Before it was his coughing waking him up. I'm hoping that he starts feeling better soon now! I've also started letting him take his naps in his rocker as that keeps him more upright. 

How did everyone else nights go? Has anyone found a connection between their babies sleep habits & they're own? I've always battled with sleep & insomnia, I wonder if you can pass them on?


----------



## Noelle610

Irish Eyes said:


> Noelle610 said:
> 
> 
> Irish, you mentioned your little man had been sick recently. Have you had his ears checked? I'm wondering if he has an ear infection. If he's waking sometimes after only 20 minutes, he's not even making it through a sleep cycle. Even if he had a sleep association problem or something, he'd at least make it that far. When Charlotte was up all night, it turned out to be her ears. It often happens AFTER they're sick and babies usually are fine during the day. It's the pressure when they lay down that hurts them
> 
> We actually went to the doctors at 9am as I thought the same! He has ear infections in both ears and possible asthma. Before it was his coughing waking him up. I'm hoping that he starts feeling better soon now! I've also started letting him take his naps in his rocker as that keeps him more upright.
> 
> How did everyone else nights go? Has anyone found a connection between their babies sleep habits & they're own? I've always battled with sleep & insomnia, I wonder if you can pass them on?Click to expand...

Oh poor baby! No wonder he was sleeping so poorly. Once Charlotte got on antibiotics for her ear infections (also in both ears!), she went to back to sleeping normally. Keeping him upright is smart. We actually put a towel under one side of her crib mattress to slightly elevate it. It only kind of worked, though, because she's a tummy sleeper and would sometimes just slide down to the other side of the crib.

I never had insomnia until I had a baby. My husband and I have always been great sleepers. That said, my mom said I was a terrible sleeper as a baby and a three hour stretch for her felt like bliss. So perhaps there's something to that :)


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## bananaz

*Irish Eyes* - Aw, poor guy, I'm glad you figured out what the issue is. I'm sure he'll start sleeping much better once the antibiotics have a chance to kick in. And that's an interesting question. I've always had a difficult time falling asleep and there have been brief periods in my life where I dealt with insomnia but for the most part I think I've been a fairly "good sleeper." Given how many people have some kids who sleep amazingly right away and other kids who are up all night I'm guessing the parents' sleep habits aren't a big factor, but who knows.


Last night was awful for us. After going down at 4:30 she had a nice long stretch until 10:30 but then woke every 30-90 minutes after that until she was up for the day at 5 :wacko: And of course I didn't go to bed until 9 so I didn't really get any benefit from that initial 6-hour sleep period.

From now on I'm just not going to put her down for naps after 4pm, even if it means she's up too long and gets overtired. She usually has two long nursing sessions and a small solid meal in that 4:30-6:30pm window and I think that missing them was part of why she was up so much. Fingers crossed that she'll go back to taking 1-2 hour naps and it won't be an issue though (please please please!)


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## Shadowy Lady

Irish - I'm sorry to see you here...IT's always great to have more ppl in the threat on one hand but then again that means more moms not sleeping :( I hope your LO's ear infection clears soon...

Bananaz - you know what I thought the same thing yesterday. No napping after 4 pm! Hope you have a better night this time...Elsie's picture is beautiful btw, I don't know if I said to you or not already :)

We had a weird night here. Sofia went down quickly at 7 pm as per usual. However, she woke up at around 10 pm. I was looking at her in the monitor and she wasn't crying...just fussing and trying to sleep. But each time as she was about the fall asleep, she would start fighting the Woombie and wake herself up. After an hour or so of that I fed her. She didn't really eat just nibbled at the boob and went to sleep so I put her back down. She proceeded to sleep till 4:30 am when she was actually hungry, fed and slept again till 7:30 am.

She's been napping now for 2 hours. I'm not sure what to do anymore. She hates being without the Woombie yet she fights it in her sleep now :/ Also I think tomorrow I'm gonna keep her up from 7 am till 9 am and put her down for a nap then...

I may be overthinking this whole thing but I want my sleep back and I wanna sleep in the same bed as DH (right now we're sleeping in shifts).


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## jessicatunnel

Okay, this is my third time typing this because I'm sitting on the floor with the laptop and Lilly keeps crawling over here and climbing onto my lap and banging on the keyboard. :dohh:
Maybe that's a sign I should move up to the couch? :haha:

Bananaz, oh my! Your night sounds awful, I'm SO sorry! I feel for you, try to get some rest today!

Shadowy Lady, when we stopped swaddling Lilly, those first few nights were HELL! She woke up constantly like every 30 minutes to an hour. On the third night she was just fine. Have you tried just dropping the woombie altogether? Even if those first nights suck, it will get better. (We still swaddle Lilly if she's sick and isn't sleeping well at all).

Lilly slept through again, 7:15pm-8:30am. :D
If this continues, I won't be able to post in this thread anymore. :( (That should be a good thing, haha!)


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## Noelle610

GO LILLY! Not only did she sleep through, but she slept for a looong time. Growing girl needs and loves her sleep!


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## bananaz

WOW, that's so amazing, Jessica! It seems like just yesterday Lilly was up half a dozen times a night, and now she's sleeping over 13 hours straight! The couple of times Elsie slept through it was "only" for 10 hours.


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## jessicatunnel

bananaz said:


> WOW, that's so amazing, Jessica! It seems like just yesterday Lilly was up half a dozen times a night, and now she's sleeping over 13 hours straight! The couple of times Elsie slept through it was "only" for 10 hours.

I know! And it's really surprised me because while we were home in Texas her sleep was HORRIBLE!! And just as soon as we got home, BAM! Sleeping through the night, it came out of nowhere! I honestly thought we'd never get here. I still don't know if it's going to be a regular thing, I'm just waiting for the day when she's back to waking every few hours. I can't imagine her sleeping through from here on out. 

I feel kinda bad posting that she's sleeping through the night, because a lot of the ladies on here, including you, aren't having the best of nights lately.. :blush:


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## bananaz

jessicatunnel said:


> I know! And it's really surprised me because while we were home in Texas her sleep was HORRIBLE!! And just as soon as we got home, BAM! Sleeping through the night, it came out of nowhere! I honestly thought we'd never get here. I still don't know if it's going to be a regular thing, I'm just waiting for the day when she's back to waking every few hours. I can't imagine her sleeping through from here on out.
> 
> I feel kinda bad posting that she's sleeping through the night, because a lot of the ladies on here, including you, aren't having the best of nights lately.. :blush:

Haha, yeah I felt bad posting here when Elsie was doing 7-8 hour stretches, but actually it gives me hope to see how well Lilly is sleeping (though of course I'm jealous!), especially given how poorly she slept for so long. Sooner or later you're going to have to share your secret STTN training method though ;)


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## Irish Eyes

jessicatunnel said:


> bananaz said:
> 
> 
> WOW, that's so amazing, Jessica! It seems like just yesterday Lilly was up half a dozen times a night, and now she's sleeping over 13 hours straight! The couple of times Elsie slept through it was "only" for 10 hours.
> 
> I know! And it's really surprised me because while we were home in Texas her sleep was HORRIBLE!! And just as soon as we got home, BAM! Sleeping through the night, it came out of nowhere! I honestly thought we'd never get here. I still don't know if it's going to be a regular thing, I'm just waiting for the day when she's back to waking every few hours. I can't imagine her sleeping through from here on out.
> 
> I feel kinda bad posting that she's sleeping through the night, because a lot of the ladies on here, including you, aren't having the best of nights lately.. :blush:Click to expand...

It gives us hope though! Even on a good night for my LO he never sleeps in longer that 6.30am so that's amazing!! Hoping it stays like that for you!


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## Noelle610

jessicatunnel said:


> bananaz said:
> 
> 
> WOW, that's so amazing, Jessica! It seems like just yesterday Lilly was up half a dozen times a night, and now she's sleeping over 13 hours straight! The couple of times Elsie slept through it was "only" for 10 hours.
> 
> I know! And it's really surprised me because while we were home in Texas her sleep was HORRIBLE!! And just as soon as we got home, BAM! Sleeping through the night, it came out of nowhere! I honestly thought we'd never get here. I still don't know if it's going to be a regular thing, I'm just waiting for the day when she's back to waking every few hours. I can't imagine her sleeping through from here on out.
> 
> I feel kinda bad posting that she's sleeping through the night, because a lot of the ladies on here, including you, aren't having the best of nights lately.. :blush:Click to expand...

Don't feel guilty. This kind of stuff used to give me so much hope. To think that a baby could wake every couple of hours and then magically start STTN is wonderful!


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## Aimee1003

Yes. Hope!!!!! I need hope! I remember the last night Coleton sttn. It was Oct 14th. Sigh...So long ago. Colds, sleep regression, RSV, separation anxiety, now teething...it just keeps on and on.

I do a lot of research in my job and it kinds bleeds over to my personal life. All that to explain why I know these random numbers...:) At 6 months babies "should "get 10-11 hrs of nighttime sleep and 3-4 hrs of naps. At 9 months the average is 11-12 hrs of nighttime sleep and 2-3 hours of naps so it sounds like many of your babies are right on track.

I also posted a thread a few days ago citing a research study where of 640 six month olds only 16% sttn on a regular basis. This study makes me feel better.

Bananaz- I bet u are right about the missed meals causing the wakeups. Coleton has been wanting a 4-4:30 nap recently. I have just been holding him and he wakes up after 20-30 min. Seems like he only really needs a catnap then. Of course I am back at work today so can't do that anymore.

Shadowy- I am sleeping on the floor in LOs bedroom at the moment because his room is on the other side of the house and the damn monitor wakes me up with every noise and since little man is up so much anyway.... I too miss my husband!

So LO was up every 2 hrs last night. I am at work (pumping now) and am so exhausted. However I really think the wakeups are teething related. If so, that means it has been going on for 2 weeks. How long do u think b4 the tooth actually appears?


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## Noelle610

Aimee, our first tooth took weeks to appear! Usually the bottom ones are first to come in... can you see the outline on the front of the gums? Typically that shows you're they're coming. If it helps, the second popped through with much less trouble.


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## Boo44

Wow Jessica that is amazing! I am so happy for you! What have you changed recently? How many oz of formula does Lilly usually have a day?

Like a PP said my Jack literally never does that. Even if he sttn I always hear him at least once and he usually wakes by 6.30 or 7 latest


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## jessicatunnel

Boo44 said:


> Wow Jessica that is amazing! I am so happy for you! What have you changed recently? How many oz of formula does Lilly usually have a day?
> 
> Like a PP said my Jack literally never does that. Even if he sttn I always hear him at least once and he usually wakes by 6.30 or 7 latest

We shut her door and crack ours and turn the baby monitor off so if she wakes up and is re positioning herself I don't hear her, but the minute she cries I can hear her and go in there. When she first STTN I thought she must have cried and I just didn't hear her, but there's no way that could happen because her room is only right across the hall from ours and her cries are pretty loud, haha.

I haven't changed a thing either. I just play with her until she's tired and then bathe her. After her bath she gets ultra tired and falls asleep as soon as the bottle hits her mouth.
She's not a huge eater and has about 18 oz a day and sometimes has baby food or whatever we're eating but she is STILL not very interested in food yet.


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## Boo44

jessicatunnel said:


> Boo44 said:
> 
> 
> Wow Jessica that is amazing! I am so happy for you! What have you changed recently? How many oz of formula does Lilly usually have a day?
> 
> Like a PP said my Jack literally never does that. Even if he sttn I always hear him at least once and he usually wakes by 6.30 or 7 latest
> 
> We shut her door and crack ours and turn the baby monitor off so if she wakes up and is re positioning herself I don't hear her, but the minute she cries I can hear her and go in there. When she first STTN I thought she must have cried and I just didn't hear her, but there's no way that could happen because her room is only right across the hall from ours and her cries are pretty loud, haha.
> 
> I haven't changed a thing either. I just play with her until she's tired and then bathe her. After her bath she gets ultra tired and falls asleep as soon as the bottle hits her mouth.
> She's not a huge eater and has about 18 oz a day and sometimes has baby food or whatever we're eating but she is STILL not very interested in food yet.Click to expand...

Fab! She was obviously just ready for sttn what a star!

We don't use a monitor either, just leave his door open and push ours almost shut. I still hear him breathing I think it must be mother's instinct as OH passes right out haha


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## lysh

So nice to hear that STTN can actually happen! lol Congrats Jessica!!

My LO still is waking up twice a night- we had a pretty bad regression for about a week and now we are back to the twice a night pattern. It is still hard with the timing of it though...she goes to bed between 6:30-7, wakes up between 10:30-11 (I go to bed between 8:30-9- earliest I can do it as I have tons of school work to do at night), wakes up again around 2-2:30 and then again between 4:30-5 (she is then up for the day). So I am still not really getting any long stretches of sleep. I wish she would at least sleep until 5:30 which is when I would have to get up on workdays. 

I see there are a lot of teething questions! I am not an expert as my LO only sprouted her two bottom front teeth, but I noticed that she was showing signs of teething for a while....however, all of a sudden she was crankier than usual during the day and at night for about 2-3 days, and then we saw her first tooth pop out!!! Her second one came within a week of the first.


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## libbylou

The rest of our night was rubbish too. LO was up every hour in her crib until I moved her to our bed and she was so restless there that I hardly got any sleep. Moved her back to her crib at around 6am...took her almost an hour to settle to sleep, then between 7am and 8:30am when she woke up for the day she was waking constantly and making just enough noise to wake me up :wacko:
Unfortunately we can't leave our doors open and go monitorless because we have two cats and one of the stupid jerks (unknown which one) started pissing on furniture when LO was born and I don't want my mattress pissed on again. Plus they're really loud and disruptive at night so letting them in either room would not be a good plan

Jessica - that is so awesome that Lilly is sleeping through! Gives me hope!

The longest stretch LO has done is 8 hours and that was once at 6 months. She's done 5 hours maybe like 3 times.

Noelle - could be a growth spurt? My LO sleeps a crazy amount (short periods of course) when she has a growth spurt

Irish - glad to see you caught the ear infection, hopefully LO will start feeling better now and better sleep will follow!
I've actually heard from a few people (pediatrician, sleep consultant, etc) that a baby's sleep can be affected by how their parent sleeps. In which case LO should theoretically sleep like a log :dohh:

Bananaz - geez, sorry you guys had a bad night too :(

shadowy - sounds like it's time to transition out of the swaddle. Hopefully it won't be too miserable of a transition for you guys!

aimee - LO was sleeping great (after sleep training) until she started teething...her teething definitely affected her sleep in a serious way. Hope it gets better for you soon, can't imagine how hard it is to function at work on so little sleep. I can barely get out of my PJs some days


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## lysh

libbylou said:


> The rest of our night was rubbish too. LO was up every hour in her crib until I moved her to our bed and she was so restless there that I hardly got any sleep. Moved her back to her crib at around 6am...took her almost an hour to settle to sleep, then between 7am and 8:30am when she woke up for the day she was waking constantly and making just enough noise to wake me up :wacko:
> Unfortunately we can't leave our doors open and go monitorless because we have two cats and one of the stupid jerks (unknown which one) started pissing on furniture when LO was born and I don't want my mattress pissed on again. Plus they're really loud and disruptive at night so letting them in either room would not be a good plan

Sorry Libby- I think it is disheartening to go through the sleep training to have it all go down the tubes. I don't know about you, but I am finding it hard to want to go through that again! I have a cat too....love my kitty, but sometimes it is frustrating to deal with him waking us up on top of LO. He does not sleep in the room with us anymore (we have to close our doors and LOs because of our kitty too- we have to keep the monitor on) but he will get in these moods where he will MEOW and MEOW and MEOW. :nope:

BTW Aimmee- Do you find pumping at work as a teacher to be challenging??? It is killing me this year- plus I am in a new position (you know how hectic it is learning a curriculum). I spend half of my lunch and prep pumping. It is hard working/pumping/keeping up with everything while sleep deprived!


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## ntlnnk

My girl is 14 weeks and steel wakes up almost every 2 hours at night. I hope she will sleep better soon.


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## bananaz

libbylou said:


> The rest of our night was rubbish too. LO was up every hour in her crib until I moved her to our bed and she was so restless there that I hardly got any sleep. Moved her back to her crib at around 6am...took her almost an hour to settle to sleep, then between 7am and 8:30am when she woke up for the day she was waking constantly and making just enough noise to wake me up :wacko:
> Unfortunately we can't leave our doors open and go monitorless because we have two cats and one of the stupid jerks (unknown which one) started pissing on furniture when LO was born and I don't want my mattress pissed on again. Plus they're really loud and disruptive at night so letting them in either room would not be a good plan

Sorry to hear you had a tough night :( My cats are a pain at night too. Every evening I have to lock them and their litterbox in the kitchen because a few months ago they decided that the baby was responsible for feeding them breakfast so they started meowing really loudly at her door at 4am. I almost murdered them. 

I actually still sleep with both my and LO's bedroom doors closed and no monitor, though. We have a small house and that kid is LOUD. I hear her no problem, even with white noise on.


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## lysh

bananaz said:


> Sorry to hear you had a tough night :( My cats are a pain at night too. Every evening I have to lock them and their litterbox in the kitchen because a few months ago they decided that the baby was responsible for feeding them breakfast so they started meowing really loudly at her door at 4am. I almost murdered them.

lol....I have felt that way about my cat on occasion. Especially when meowing is not enough and he decides to run around like his tail is on fire and all I hear from my bed is 'thump, thump, thump' and he runs up and down the stairs and back and forth in the hallway. Oh....and my cat opens drawers. I once forgot to close the guest room door and he got in and started pulling open draws...so all I hear are these loud bangs as the draws come flying open......of course this is the wall connected to the baby's room!!!! When he does this, I am awake and tense and waiting to hear LO scream. (either that or my eyes are peeled on the monitor waiting to see if she starts moving which will lead to crying). 

Well, my 'free time' is about up! Nice to catch up and touch base every now and then between the insanity I call life at the moment!


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## BabyBumpLove

Hello ladies,
Can I join? I am also the mother of a sweet baby that DOES NOT come close to sttn! I live in a constant sleepy state. My son is 5 months old and I was sure I would be sleeping a lot more than I am by now. I feel like I have tried everything! I am very hopeful that someday soon my sweet baby will give his mommy a break!


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## Stellae

I've got a 5.5 mo too and his nighttime sleep was really degrading too. We figured out he was napping too long during the day- 4 hours total. That doesn't sound like much but he wanted to go to bed at 7 pm and sleep until 8 am, and he was just too wakeful. When we cut his morning and evening naps to half an hour and only let him sleep an hour and a half tops for his midday nap it improved a lot. I know waking up LO from a peaceful nap is the last thing you probably want to do, especially since you really need the break, but it might help!


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## Noelle610

Welcome BabyBump, sorry you are here!

Stellae, my LO actually tends to sleep better at night if she has good naps... but 4 hours does seem like a lot of daytime sleep! I tihnk 3 hours is ideal for us.

Yesterday was GREAT for us. Charlotte had wonderful naps (9:00am-10:30am and 1:30pm-3:00pm) and then STTN 12 hours from 6:30pm-6:30am. Is 7 months our time for sleep? Knock on wood! Just enjoying it while it lasts.... until the next illness/tooth/sleep regression.


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## bananaz

*BabyBumpLove* - Sorry to hear things are so rough, I know what you mean about expecting more sleep at this age!

*Noelle* - Hooray! So happy for you! And so so jealous, haha. Have you done anything differently or is this just because she finally doesn't have any illness or developmental thing going on?


Yesterday was good for us in that her naps were finally back on track, with a 1-hour nap in the more and a glorious 2-hour nap in the afternoon (it's crazy how long 2 hours feels now! I got so much done). 

Unfortunately last night was awful. Her pattern of wakings was almost identical to the night before's, except she went to bed on time so she didn't have the nice long stretch in the beginning. WTF happened? A week ago she was doing 7-10 hour stretches and now she won't even do 4 hours in a row? Perhaps not coincidentally, in the past couple of days she's started refusing almost all solids. I don't know why or what to do about that though. 

I feel like I must be doing something wrong here. At a certain point isn't it supposed to get better and stay that way, at least for a while? :(


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## Noelle610

Bananaz, I'm truly not sure. I think it's a combination of things. The night weaning helped, as she no longer wakes for feeds. And then I think it's just the perfect storm of no illness/teething/milestones or what have you. Charlotte's really sensitive to those things, so I'm not confident this pattern will continue. 

Wow, a 2 hour afternoon nap?! How lovely. I adore those, especially on the weekends. I'm sorry your night was rough. Charlotte goes through periods of refusing solids and I do actually notice a difference in how solidly she sleeps, although many experts say there is no connection. Have you tried letting her feed herself? Charlotte wasn't into the spoon feeding thing for awhile, but really liked it when I let her feed herself small pieces of things like puffs, soft steamed fruit and even chicken.

You're not doing anything wrong. Jessica and I haven't actively done much different for our babies and they just randomly started sleeping. I honestly think it's luck of the draw sometimes. However, I know how awful it is to feel you're doing everything "right" and see no results. That's why I started this post! I also wonder if Elsie is doing the 8/9 month regression early because she's hit all of these milestones early.


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## bananaz

Yeah, Elsie is definitely interested in finger foods so that's probably the direction I'm going to head if she keeps refusing the purees, though most of the time she just chews the food up and then spits it out so I'm not sure how much actual nourishment she'll get out of it. I wish I hadn't just bought a bunch of pricy organic purees though! Maybe I'll eat them, haha.

My counselor has a background in child development and she's CONVINCED that massive quantities of solids are key to babies sleeping well. She's also the person who gave me Ferber's book and has been pushing me to completely night wean, which I think is a reasonable move at this point but not 3 months ago when she started trying to convince me. Her first child didn't STTN until he was almost 5 years old though so I guess I can see why it's a passionate topic for her :wacko:


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## Noelle610

That's interesting! I think the solids help, but that's only if a baby is truly waking ONLY for hunger. And we all know they wake for many reasons other than that. 

I love the Ferber book, so I'd certainly give it a read if I were you. That said, I have two issues with it.... One being his encouraging night weaning at 3/4 months old. I think for breast fed babies especially that's too early. I also think his "sleep needs averages" are super low. 

Five YEARS? That scares me!


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## MiniKiwi

Wow Noelle! I actually had a smile reading your post. That is such a great day and night, I hope it continues for you :)

Bananaz, I also feel as though I'm doing something wrong. I don't think that's the case though, they just sleep when they want!

We had an ok night here. Bed at 8pm after 1.5 hrs rocking..:( awake at 9:30 for a feed, awake at 12 for... a cuddle? She's never woken for no reason like that and happily went back to sleep when I cuddled her and then awake at 4am, it's 4:45am and she's almost asleep again and I'm up for the day!


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## Noelle610

MiniKiwi said:


> Wow Noelle! I actually had a smile reading your post. That is such a great day and night, I hope it continues for you :)
> 
> Bananaz, I also feel as though I'm doing something wrong. I don't think that's the case though, they just sleep when they want!
> 
> We had an ok night here. Bed at 8pm after 1.5 hrs rocking..:( awake at 9:30 for a feed, awake at 12 for... a cuddle? She's never woken for no reason like that and happily went back to sleep when I cuddled her and then awake at 4am, it's 4:45am and she's almost asleep again and I'm up for the day!

Thank you so much! I'm just trying to enjoy it for now, although I'm a born worrier and keep thinking it will change soon :)

Charlotte has woken for cuddles a few nights this past week too, drifting straight off after being picked up and cuddled for a moment. She'd never done that either. I think it has to do with separation anxiety setting in.


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## jessicatunnel

Babybump: Sorry to see you here!
Bananaz: Eeek, sorry you had a tough night. Like Noelle said, I haven't changed much either, it just kind of happened for us.
Noelle: So glad you had a good day/night!
Minikiwi: Glad you had an ok night. Lilly used to wake for a cuddle too. I think they just need to feel the reassurance of their mommy. :D

Lilly slept through AGAIN! :happydance:
She had a two hour morning nap and a one hour afternoon nap and went to bed at 7pm, and woke at 6:30 am. I gave her a bottle at 6:30 hoping it would send her back off to bed and it did, for about 30 minutes. She woke for the day at 7:10am.

Noelle: :saywhat: There's an eight month sleep regression!?!?! Please tell me this isn't true! I'm enjoying all this sleep me and Lilly are getting and would hate to see it all go down the drain. :( The four month sleep regression hit her hard, waking every 30minutes for a week straight! It was a nightmare. :(


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## bananaz

Noelle610 said:


> That's interesting! I think the solids help, but that's only if a baby is truly waking ONLY for hunger. And we all know they wake for many reasons other than that.
> 
> I love the Ferber book, so I'd certainly give it a read if I were you. That said, I have two issues with it.... One being his encouraging night weaning at 3/4 months old. I think for breast fed babies especially that's too early. I also think his "sleep needs averages" are super low.
> 
> Five YEARS? That scares me!

Once I got over being mildly offended that someone suggest I "Ferberize" my precious snowflake I actually did read the book :haha: I found it to be really helpful, though the bit about 3-month-olds being able to go without food all night rubbed me the wrong way too.


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## jessicatunnel

Also, the pedi didn't show for Lilly's 6 month injections/ wellness check last month so her appt. is today. She's always been great after her injections, cries for 2minutes and is fine, never had a fever or been in pain and hadn't affected her sleep, not that I could tell anyway. But I'm a bit paranoid the injections will mess with her sleep and she'll go back to waking every couple of hours. :/
Ever since she started sttn I'm paranoid about EVERYTHING messing it up, I'm making myself crazy, lol. This sleep is just so precious. :haha:


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## Noelle610

Totally understand Jessica, I've become completely paranoid too. If it helps, Charlotte always sleeps really well after her injections.


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## bananaz

jessicatunnel said:


> Also, the pedi didn't show for Lilly's 6 month injections/ wellness check last month so her appt. is today. She's always been great after her injections, cries for 2minutes and is fine, never had a fever or been in pain and hadn't affected her sleep, not that I could tell anyway. But I'm a bit paranoid the injections will mess with her sleep and she'll go back to waking every couple of hours. :/
> Ever since she started sttn I'm paranoid about EVERYTHING messing it up, I'm making myself crazy, lol. This sleep is just so precious. :haha:


Haha, I'm exactly the same way when Elsie is sleeping well! It's almost a relief when her sleep inevitably falls apart again because there's not so much pressure to keep doing things right. I hope Lilly's injections go well!


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## KozmikKitten

Hi Ladies! I need to join. I havent read the whole thread because its just sooo long! :) I am happy to see that recently some of you have had success around 7 months. My son is 5 months and he has been a horrible sleeper pretty much since we brought him home. He did have a week in there around 3.5 months where he only woke twice (awesome!) but he has since been back to waking every 1-3 hours every single night. We are exhausted at my house! I have cried to my hubby that we MUST be doing something wrong!


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## Noelle610

KozmikKitten said:


> Hi Ladies! I need to join. I havent read the whole thread because its just sooo long! :) I am happy to see that recently some of you have had success around 7 months. My son is 5 months and he has been a horrible sleeper pretty much since we brought him home. He did have a week in there around 3.5 months where he only woke twice (awesome!) but he has since been back to waking every 1-3 hours every single night. We are exhausted at my house! I have cried to my hubby that we MUST be doing something wrong!

You mean you didn't have time to read all 90 plus pages?? :haha:

I'm sorry your baby is waking so much! We all know how awful sleep deprivation is. Any idea why he wakes so frequently?

You're probably not doing anything wrong. As most of the girls on here know, I've read almost every single sleep book written and I had a horrible sleeper until recently. I tried a lot!


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## Shadowy Lady

Bananaz - sorry your had another bad night. My mom things once Sofia is on solids she'll sleep better. But I think that's just her old school way of thinking. I have said it before, but give Ferber a try. His book was brilliant for us weaning Sofia off her soother. I don't want to night wean her completely coz she's so young but we were able to space the night feeds using his book. I think it will do great for your and Elsie :)

Noelle - so glad you're enjoying more restful nights. I do recall when you started this thread and look at the changes now :) Hoping good nights are near for everyone

Minikiwi - your ok nights sounds like our bad nights :/ Is there a way you can teach Mia to go to sleep without being rocked? We saw a huge difference in sleep/nap once Sofia was able to sleep w/o her soother.

Lysh - I was all over DH to get me a cat last year and now reading kitty stories makes me glad I don't have a baby AND a cat, hehe.

Last night was alright for us. She went to sleep at 7 pm, woke up at 11:30 pm for a feed. Down again till 3 am when I fed her. Then up for the day at 6:55 am. I still have her in the Woombie until her Magic Sleepsuite arrives. I'm gonna sleep train once I have that in my hands. I'm still at loss of why she wakes up so much earlier than she did when she was younger....I guess that's why they call it sleep regression.


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## bananaz

Aghh she will NOT go down for her nap this morning. Normally I nurse her, pop her in the crib and pat her back a few times and she goes to sleep but I've been trying for over an hour now and she just keeps screaming every time her head touches the mattress. Right now I've put her down in PJs with her frog to see if she'll settle herself but she's just cruising the sides of the crib yelling so I don't think it's going to happen.

We're supposed to go to a baby group in an hour that I've been looking forward to for a month and now there's no way we'll be able to make it. What is going on with this child! I feel like crying. Stupid hormones and sleep deprivation :cry:


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## MiniKiwi

Shadowy Lady said:


> Minikiwi - your ok nights sounds like our bad nights :/ Is there a way you can teach Mia to go to sleep without being rocked? We saw a huge difference in sleep/nap once Sofia was able to sleep w/o her soother.

lol! It's just that we've had much worse nights so it's ok in comparison! and those bad nights have taught me not to be bothered by the 'ok' nights and a good night she'll wake up two or three times but go straight back to sleep. Tbh, I don't mind and as long as she's getting the rest she needs I won't try to 'train' her. I do hate the rocking though but lately she hasn't needed nearly as much so I feel like I'm winning lol!

Your night sounds decent! I wouldn't expect her to sleep longer though, 12 hours is really standard and a pretty good effort from her :thumbup:

Bananaz, I'm really sorry :hugs: That sounds like what happens at our house when Mia is overtired, perhaps you just missed the boat. It happens every couple of days but used to be every single nap time. It's so damn frustrating. Sleep Elsie, SLEEP! I used to frequently miss baby group for the same reason then one week decided to take her along despite the fact she was obviously tired and she did so well! But I understand you not wanting to go, our group is a 5 minute walk from my house so I can always run away when I need to. Can you take a sling with you and put her in if she gets too fussy/tired? That's what I do to Mia. :hugs:


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## bananaz

MiniKiwi said:


> Bananaz, I'm really sorry :hugs: That sounds like what happens at our house when Mia is overtired, perhaps you just missed the boat. It happens every couple of days but used to be every single nap time. It's so damn frustrating. Sleep Elsie, SLEEP! I used to frequently miss baby group for the same reason then one week decided to take her along despite the fact she was obviously tired and she did so well! But I understand you not wanting to go, our group is a 5 minute walk from my house so I can always run away when I need to. Can you take a sling with you and put her in if she gets too fussy/tired? That's what I do to Mia. :hugs:

Yeah, I do wonder if maybe she got up earlier than I realized this morning so I missed her normal "sleepy window." Most times when I miss the window I can still get her down though, she just takes a short, crappy nap.

Unfortunately she hates the sling, otherwise that would be a good idea. If I manage to get her down in the next half hour and she takes one of her 20 minute naps then we may be able to make it to the group.

For now I've given up and got her out of the crib and am letting her crawl around and play for a bit. It's funny - she's always in the most cheerful mood right after she gets up from a failed attempt at putting her to bed! It's like she has a new appreciation for being awake and doing things.


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## MiniKiwi

bananaz said:


> It's funny - she's always in the most cheerful mood right after she gets up from a failed attempt at putting her to bed! It's like she has a new appreciation for being awake and doing things.

Hahaha! That's so familiar! Mia is the same. I'll just let her roll around in my bed when I give up and she rolls from one end to the other and laughs to herself! If it wasn't so adorable, I'd probably get mad :haha:


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## bananaz

MiniKiwi said:


> bananaz said:
> 
> 
> It's funny - she's always in the most cheerful mood right after she gets up from a failed attempt at putting her to bed! It's like she has a new appreciation for being awake and doing things.
> 
> Hahaha! That's so familiar! Mia is the same. I'll just let her roll around in my bed when I give up and she rolls from one end to the other and laughs to herself! If it wasn't so adorable, I'd probably get mad :haha:Click to expand...

Lol that sounds so stinking cute! Thanks for the smile :)


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## Boo44

Just read the last few posts and am pleased that you're all the same as me! When jack sleeps well I am much more worried constantly about it possibly going wrong. And then when he has a bad night I almost feel relief! Because the next night can't be much worse and the only way is up. Am so pleased I'm not the only one, I thought I was a bit odd lol!

Bananaz I'd go to the group anyway. She might surprise you. And one thing I've learned in this whole crazy madness called parenting so far, is that no matter how 'perfect' you get things one day the babies will never actually conform anyway! And that a bad day or night doesn't mean it will be bad forever. It has taken me so long and many tears and worrying to get to this point but now I'm trying my hardest to just go with the flow a bit more :) (totally against my personality by the way!!)


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## libbylou

Bananaz - Ever has naps like that sometimes too...or rather refusing to nap. She's normally pretty good for naps, I nurse her and put her down...she will either play for a couple mins and sleep or protest for a min or two and then sleep. But sometimes it'll be like a good hour of me constantly settling her trying to get her to take the damn nap!

Last night was ok. 
I drugged myself with Advil Nighttime which has a mild sedative in it (ok for BF luckily) and I actually fell asleep as soon as my head hit the pillow and had no troubles getting back to sleep whenever I got woken up(instead of my usual anxiety induced insomnia). 
LO was waking up and crying for a min or two pretty much every single hour, then resettling herself. Happy that she was resettling herself, except I was still getting woken up every single hour all night. I did have to go in and settle her every 2-3 hours. But she slept in until 9:30 and only spent 2 hours in our bed last night because she was too restless and settled better in her crib
Gah I wish I could get her back into the 3-5 hour stretches!


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## MiniKiwi

Ohh Libby :hugs: It's bad when you're wishing for three hours sleep in a row! I'm glad you managed a little rest with the advil though. By the sounds of things, it's no wonder you're suffering with anxiety induced insomnia :( Does your OH help you out a lot? Do you have much family around for support? Out of curiosity, does she take a pacifier?


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## libbylou

I've been struggling with PPD since LO was born and the anxiety insomnia is definitely a part of it. Meeting with my dr in two weeks to discuss the possibility of putting me on some sort of med to help me through this
DH helps but not as much as I'd like (he's getting better slowly, he was totally useless when she was first born). LO is very very attached to me which makes it hard for other people to help because she tends to only want me...and my anxiety makes it hard for me to leave her or accept help from other people which is a vicious cycle!
My inlaws are totally useless...my mum helps but lives 3 hours away so we see her for a few days probably once a month and she has a lot of physical disabilities so she can't even help much...it's mostly all on me! :(
And no, she won't take a pacifier...which sometimes I'm happy about because I don't have to worry about weaning her off it but sometimes I wish I could just pop one in her mouth!


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## lysh

libby- My girl will not take a paci either. Right now, I am her paci! lol That will be hard enough to wean when the time comes. My LO goes through phases like that too....we will have decent nights where I get 3-4 hour stretches, then she goes back to every hour to hour and a half. I have no idea what causes it either- once I could blame it on teething, but sometimes I just do not see the pattern.

bananaz- My LO does not show typical sleepy signs, so I feel like I am always missing the window. By the time she shows signs of being sleepy she is overtired. I use to put her to sleep every hour and a half, but now that she is older she goes 2-3 hours. I just have not found though the magic number that works all day like the hour and a half schedule use too. It is even harder working because I am not with her all day. Did you make it to the class?

Boo- When my LO has a good night I do freak out more the next night. I get so excited but fearful at the same time.....usually I am disappointed! lol I keep waiting for the time I get a nice string of good nights. 

MiniKiwi- If my LO wakes up 2 times a night and goes right back to sleep after a nursing session I call it a decent night myself. Even though I still am not getting great stretches of sleep, I can handle this. Every hour I could not handle, so for now I have stepped away from sleep training. 

I would love to respond more, but it is almost 9 and I have a long day tomorrow! LO was SO tired tonight she fell asleep at 5 in my arms. ugh So we had to kind of wake her to give her a bath (have to keep to the routine) and she fell back asleep and was in her crib at 6:30. She could be up any minute depending. Yesterday she did not nap well. She is in the stage of fighting naps. She ended up sleeping from 7-1, which when I went to nurse her at 1 I thought it was going to be a good night. Well, lo and behold she decided to have a MOTN party until 3. ugh


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## bananaz

lysh said:


> bananaz- My LO does not show typical sleepy signs, so I feel like I am always missing the window. By the time she shows signs of being sleepy she is overtired. I use to put her to sleep every hour and a half, but now that she is older she goes 2-3 hours. I just have not found though the magic number that works all day like the hour and a half schedule use too. It is even harder working because I am not with her all day. Did you make it to the class?

My girl doesn't always have sleepy signs either so I usually just go by the clock, but her wake times can change from day to day. Lately her "optimal" awake periods have been 2-2.5 hours in the morning, 3-3.5 hours in the afternoon and then 3.5-4 hours before bed but then she has random days where she can only be awake for 2 hours at a time. It's so confusing!

She ended up sleeping through the group unfortunately but I remembered there was another one in the afternoon in a nearby city and we made it to that one. Of course she fell asleep in the car on the way home (which she NEVER does anymore!) and her typical 1-2 hour afternoon nap became a 10 minute afternoon nap because I was dumb enough to try and bring her in the house and put her to bed. Oh well.



lysh said:


> I would love to respond more, but it is almost 9 and I have a long day tomorrow! LO was SO tired tonight she fell asleep at 5 in my arms. ugh So we had to kind of wake her to give her a bath (have to keep to the routine) and she fell back asleep and was in her crib at 6:30. She could be up any minute depending. Yesterday she did not nap well. She is in the stage of fighting naps. She ended up sleeping from 7-1, which when I went to nurse her at 1 I thought it was going to be a good night. Well, lo and behold she decided to have a MOTN party until 3. ugh

Yay for a 6 hour stretch, but that doesn't sound like a very fun party :( I hope she gives you a break tonight.


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## bananaz

*libby* - Wow, that is really tough. Any idea what's going on with her right now? Maybe something developmental? I'm glad you had luck with the Advil. I took melatonin last night for the same reason and I found it pretty helpful too.


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## BabyBumpLove

Hello Ladies,
Thanks for the warm welcome. Im sorry that any of us have to be here. :wacko: Once a week I get a bit of energy and decided to try something new to help my baby sleep. My main problem is that my baby wakes up at 4am everyday no matter what time he went to bed, how many times he has been up in the night (2-8 times), or how much sleep he has gotten (usually 9 hours combined). Also he will not stay up any later than 6pm (another problem)! So tomorrow morning when my little man wakes up for his 4am play time, I am going to feed him in the dark, treat it like a night feeding even though he is wide awake and ready to play. I am going to put him back in his crib where he can play or sleep. Whatever he decides to do, it will be in his crib. I will be sleeping on my floor bed that has been in his room since he moved to his crib 3 weeks ago ha-ha! :sleep: Anyway fingers crossed. 
[-o&lt;


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## libbylou

Bananaz - I'm thinking wonder week? She has been way fussier than usual lately and just learned how to wave, shake her head, sign "milk", clap, pull up on furniture and walk along it in like a 2 week period

babybumplove - that is tough! I would cry buckets if my LO decided to start waking up at 4am! Good luck tonight!

lysh - Ugh I hate those MOTN parties. LO never ever used to do that until like 3 weeks ago! Luckily we haven't had one for a few days yet. Except it's not really a party at our house because we're usually both crying :wacko:


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## Irish Eyes

Ah Libby I hope you start getting some sleep soon! Those are some massive development stages she's going through!

Sleep has gone back to normal here now that the antibiotics have helped with the ear infection. But that still means waking every 1-2 hours. He was also up for the day at 5am :-( 

Hubby & I had the baby chat last night and I can't imagine having another baby right now but I don't want him to be an only child. OH said he could stop at one! He's such a sweet little boy as well, really funny so it's just the nights we're struggling with. 

Anyone else finding that having a bad sleeper is putting them off having anymore kids?


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## AngelUK

Definitely! Ok so we cannot afford a third really and have too little space at the moment and I am getting too old etc. But I would loved to have a daughter as well. However the thought of another baby that doesn't sleep and maybe another 10 months or more of thinking of pretty much little else apart from sleep, really has put me off. :(


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## Irish Eyes

AngelUK said:


> Definitely! Ok so we cannot afford a third really and have too little space at the moment and I am getting too old etc. But I would loved to have a daughter as well. However the thought of another baby that doesn't sleep and maybe another 10 months or more of thinking of pretty much little else apart from sleep, really has put me off. :(

Do you have 2 non-sleepers or one? I'm betting you also have the issue that if one naps in the day then you can't nap with them if the other is still awake or do they nap together?


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## lysh

babybumplove- Good luck with that. Lo used to wake up at 4 like clockwork too...now it is between 4:30-5 typically, even this morning she was up at 3:55. Usually if she is up at 4, we keep her in her crib. Sometimes she would fuss and then fall back asleep, other times she would scream. We give her about 10 minutes to see what will happen, but once she is screaming there is no way she is sleeping. 

Ugh....so 3:55 wake up today. It is going to be a LONG workday. LOs naps have been screwy lately though and she fell asleep in my arms at 5 because she woke up from her last nap at 2. LO did not want to wake up, she kept waking and dozing until we finally gave her a bath at 6. So I did not feel right pushing her to sleep anymore this morning. It is hard with the naps...not only is she difficult to read and difficult about taking them, but I am dependent upon her caregivers during the day.

Wish me luck today. lol

Hope everyone else had a good night!

Bananaz- BTW, I hate those 10 minute car naps. Sometimes when I pick LO up after work at 3 she does that and then she is a nightmare until bedtime.


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## AngelUK

Irish Eyes, sleep on the whole is a lot better than it was for us. Sebastian used to be easy and sleeps/slept well during the night. It was Dominic who was the problem but even he no longer wakes every hour through the night like he did from about 3 months to 71/2. But putting them to bed can be difficult. Sebastian used to be so easy. You put him in the cot drowsy and he would turn his face to the side and drop off. Not any more. Yesterday it took 2 hours with them both screaming on and off as if we were torturing them every time we dared put them in the cots. Rocking them to sleep is getting torturous for us as they are both big boys and Dominic weighs close to 27lbs! Anyway, Dominic then woke for a bottle at 2:10 and then Sebastian wanted to be up for the day at 5:45. So nights are ok IF Dominic wants his nightbottle late. If he wants it at 12 then he will want another one at 4. And since he isn't getting that any more and he is obstinate, he will then not go back to sleep and be up for the day. 
As for naps, they will not nap in their cots but only their bouncies. They nap well and for about an hour IF I am there next to them the whole time boucing them with my feet. If I don't they will only nap for 20 mins and be whiney the rest of the day. So I cannot nap when they do.
I dream of sttn and am not just a lil envious of all those with babies who sleep through from early on. Mine have never slept through. Not once.


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## Noelle610

Hey ladies! Looks like I've a lot to catch up with. Angel, good to see you here... although I'd rather you were sleeping ;-) Your boys are so sweet.

Boo, you remind me so much of myself! I am so anxious about sleep. My LO is finally STTN and you'd think I'd be enjoying it more, but instead I spend my time googling the 8/9 month sleep regression and worrying that will happen to us soon and it will all totally fall apart. I admit, I won't be sad when Charlotte is more consistent and I don't have to obsess about these things day and night.

Bananaz, I hate those crappy 10 minute car naps. I've found recently I can transfer Charlotte from the car seat to the crib. She typically wakes up between the transfer, but will usually go back to sleep. This is a new development, though... Until recently she would just count that 10 minutes as a nap and be UP and overtired.

Lysh/BabyBump, those early morning wakings are KILLER. I'm pretty tough - I don't go and get Charlotte before 6am. I treat anything earlier as a night waking. It took awhile, but after being brutally consistent for what seemed like months she usually sleeps until 6:30am/7am, which is perfect for me.

Libby, on insomnia/anxiety, definitely look into getting medication. I finally bit the bullet and did so and I honestly sleep so, so much better even on a "bad" night. I also don't obsess about the nights as much and my life has improved drastically. It took about 2 weeks to kick in and I feel like a new person.

Irish, I certainly do not want any more kids right now and the sleep deprivation is a huge part of it. I started selling my baby stuff online recently and my coworkers keep telling me I'll regret it, but I do not think so :) I'm glad you aren't suffering any more 20 minutes wake-ups, but hopefully you'll get more than a 2 hour stretch soon! Have you tried some Advil for the ears? Also, I found elevating the mattress helps because there's less pressure on their ears.

Last night was kind of weird, but still good. I was out with some work friends, but DH said Charlotte had a tough time going down, which is unusual for her. She was asleep around 7:15pm. She's constipated (again) and I think her tummy was bothering her. She then slept until around 3am when I heard her moaning. I went to check on her and her room was SUPER hot - DH had accidentally turned up her space heater all the way. I cooled down the room and she drifted off again. THEN I heard her again a few minutes later. I went in and she was sitting up and couldn't get back down! Bananaz, didn't Elsie do that? So I laid her back down. This whole process only disrupted our sleep for about 30 minutes, so I can't complain. Up for the day around 6:45am.


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## bananaz

lysh - So sorry about the early wake-up call, ugh :( Maybe you can sneak in a nap at work, heheh

Noelle - Yep, Elsie did go through a (mercifully brief) phase where she would sit up in the middle of the night but didn't realize she had to lie back down to go to sleep. Thankfully by that time she'd known how to get herself down from sitting for a while but it still took a couple nights for her to figure out that that's what she needed to do for sleeping! Hopefully it will be a short learning curve for Charlotte too. 

AngelUK - I'm glad to hear that Dominic is sleeping better, I remember how hard that was for you! I can't imagine having to sit and bounce two babies through a whole nap for 9 months though, I would go insane. You're a stronger woman than I am!



Last night was really good for us. She went down at 6:30pm and had wakings at 1:30am, 2:30am and 4:30am but I only fed her at the last one - the first two she resettled herself after 5-10 minutes of whining. Then she slept in until 6:30am! :happydance:

It could just be a coincidence but I did manage to get a good amount of solids into her yesterday, unlike the previous few days (I cheated and gave her rice cereal for dinner after the refused the fruit and veggies purees I'd tried :blush:).


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## BabyBumpLove

Well my little man got terrible gas/tummy pain at about 1:30am. From 1:30am until his regular 4:00am wake up, I was up 7 TIMES! I didnt have the heart to follow through on my plan because he was not feeling well. I really am a softy. Oh well I guess tonight we can try again. 

lysh-Good Luck today! I hope you make it through the day. 



Noelle610 said:


> Lysh/BabyBump, those early morning wakings are KILLER. I'm pretty tough - I don't go and get Charlotte before 6am. I treat anything earlier as a night waking. It took awhile, but after being brutally consistent for what seemed like months she usually sleeps until 6:30am/7am, which is perfect for me.

I think if my LO was going to bed a little later than 6pm I would feel ok about doing the same as you. I just wonder if he is really just done sleeping?


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## BabyBumpLove

Irish Eyes said:


> Ah Libby I hope you start getting some sleep soon! Those are some massive development stages she's going through!
> 
> Sleep has gone back to normal here now that the antibiotics have helped with the ear infection. But that still means waking every 1-2 hours. He was also up for the day at 5am :-(
> 
> Hubby & I had the baby chat last night and I can't imagine having another baby right now but I don't want him to be an only child. OH said he could stop at one! He's such a sweet little boy as well, really funny so it's just the nights we're struggling with.
> 
> Anyone else finding that having a bad sleeper is putting them off having anymore kids?

My husband is very adamant that he does not want another baby. I think the not sleeping has a lot to do with it lol. My husband gets up once a week (Saturday) with LO so I can sleep in a bit. Its pretty annoying that once a week has made him so dead set against another baby. That begin said, he also said he wants his wife back. He feels like he is living with a zombie (which he is).


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## Noelle610

BabyBumpLove said:


> Well my little man got terrible gas/tummy pain at about 1:30am. From 1:30am until his regular 4:00am wake up, I was up 7 TIMES! I didnt have the heart to follow through on my plan because he was not feeling well. I really am a softy. Oh well I guess tonight we can try again.
> 
> lysh-Good Luck today! I hope you make it through the day.
> 
> 
> 
> Noelle610 said:
> 
> 
> Lysh/BabyBump, those early morning wakings are KILLER. I'm pretty tough - I don't go and get Charlotte before 6am. I treat anything earlier as a night waking. It took awhile, but after being brutally consistent for what seemed like months she usually sleeps until 6:30am/7am, which is perfect for me.
> 
> I think if my LO was going to bed a little later than 6pm I would feel ok about doing the same as you. I just wonder if he is really just done sleeping?Click to expand...

I understand your concern - I think most babies at this age need 11-13 hours of night sleep, but that is subtracting night wakings. If he goes to bed at 6pm and wakes in the night, a wake time of 6am is probably safe :)


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## Aimee1003

Hi everyone. Nights for us have gotten a little better. He is now waking 2-3 times a night. He actually slept 2 4 hour intervals last night. yay.

Lysh- I work as a school psychologist. Luckily I don't have to worry about getting a class covered when I pump. But I do have to leave meetings early or when I'm testing a kid it gets pretty difficult. 

Bananaz- Coleton is all over the place with his naps. He sleep best for his dad. He will take 1 3 hour nap for his dad. When I am home he takes two 1 to 1 and a half hour nap


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## Aimee1003

At daycare (goes twice a week), he takes one to two nsps of 30 min each!!!! Crazy!!

Strangely enough , I do not see a pattern with it affecting how he sleeps at night. Like yesterday he went to daycare and took one 50 min nap and then the night was ok!!!! Weird.


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## BabyBumpLove

Thanks Noelle! I will give it a try.


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## Shadowy Lady

Last night Sofia woke up at like 9:00 pm..ughhhhh! I did feed her and she ate quite a bit. But then she woke up again at 2 am. I tried feeding her but she wasn't hungry...she just fussed a bit and went to sleep and woke up at 4 am...again I waited about 10 mins, once I got outta bed she was again asleep. So she didn't eat until 7 am which is her usual wake up call :/

I don't know why she wakes up and fusses if she's not hungry or in pain. The pedi appt is tomorrow and hopefully she'll give me some answers. I'm driving myself crazy here with my inconsistent baby :(


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## Noelle610

Aimee, glad your night was better! I haven't totally found our pattern either... Charlotte has days where she naps well and sleeps well at night, but also days where she naps like crap and crashes and sleeps fantastically. It's hard to figure it out.

Shadowy Lady, I honlestly think some babies are just loud between sleep cycles. They're still "learning" how to sleep. You and I might just get up and go to the bathroom and then drift off again, but they need to kind of fuss it out. Do you have a monitor? I noticed Charlotte started sleeping "better" when I turned mine off (I can still hear her if she's crying) and every sound wasn't so amplified.


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## jessicatunnel

Haven't updated today!
She slept through last night, not much more to report, lol.
She's eating more in the day now, taking about 26-30oz now, that literally came out of nowhere too, she was only having 15-20oz before. Maybe that's what helping her sleep through the night?

Her naps have kinda been weird today. She woke up at 730 this morning and had her first nap at 9 which lasted two hours. She then had her next nap at 130 and slept until 230 so one hour. Which kinda screwed me. :/ I fed her on the couch at about 4 and she drifted off for like five minutes. I gave her a bath at 5 and she is just SO SO tired. I thought I'd try and keep her up until 6 but she's just exhausted right now. So its 530 and I just put her down for the night.. I'm sure she'll wake up a few times tonight, but I'm okay with that. She's been very cuddly today so I'm wondering if she's just not feeling very good. Maybe her tummy hurts of she has a headache. (Do babies get headaches?) She doesn't seem like she's coming down with a cold, but she has just seemed exhausted all day. I wonder if it's from her injections she got yesterday? She was fine after she got them, everything seemed normal. But today it's just been.. weird. I don't really know how to explain it.


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## Shadowy Lady

Noelle - I do have a monitor and I do leave it off. The problem is that her room is literally only inches away from our lol! So I hear her even with the door closed even if she's just whining :/ Let's see what tonight will bring us, lol!

Jessica - so glad Lilly is still sttn :) keep up the good work both of u :)

Aimee - glad to hear your nights are improving. Sounds much better than last week when you were reporting here


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## lysh

Irisheyes/babybump/noelle- DH and I are going to discuss if we want another one right after LO turns a year old. We thought we wanted two, but I am also finding the sleep to be super hard to deal with. I am not sure if I can do this again with another baby to care for!!! At the same time, I think it would be nice for dd to have a sibling. I am turning 35 this summer, so I feel like I either have to have them close together or not at all. We would have to basically start trying this summer. Not sure how I feel about it yet.....at the moment I would say no way, but we will see this summer.

bananaz- That is too much about the sitting in bed thing. I just told DH that might be another milestone (like rolling) that we will have to deal with that might disrupt sleep! lol I can just imagine her sitting there not knowing she needs to lie back down!!! 

Aimmee- Yeah, I do not have anyone cover my class, I just pump during my breaks...just makes it hard to get things done! I find the worse sleep I get the less I pump too. My LO has no pattern with naps.....and her evenings really follow no pattern either. If she has a good night, I honestly have no idea why!

Jessica- Glad to hear your LO is still STTN!

Shadowy Lady- Sorry she is having some rough nights again. :( Our babies just seem to go through so many stages and phases!

Noelle- DH and I use to be tough about not getting LO at 4- but if she went too long without a feeding (longer than what she is use too) or went to bed way too early, then I feel bad and give in. One night the wakings are spaced perfectly, other nights it is a problem. 

Well, DH and I are going to get comfy and relax for a bit. I have school work I should do, but I am too tired. I was so tired today at work that I forgot to pass out h/w (kids were thrilled), kept mixing up names, and was loosing things int he middle of lessons!!! Hopefully tomorrow will be better.


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## Noelle610

Jessica, it's so crazy that Lilly just randomly started sleeping through the night. It's so awesome! I would say she probably just feels "off" today because of her shots. They make Charlotte sooo sleepy. 

Lysh, I have so been there with the sleep deprivation and totally being off my game at work. Luckily the boss' boss has a 5 month old who doesn't sleep, so he gets it!


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## bumpbear

LO was a good sleeper until 4 month sleep regression hit, then all hell broke loose at night times, and for naps. 

DH was too tired- scratch that- too exhausted to go in to work this morning for a very important meeting. Yesterday, at baby group, one of the staff asked if she had just woken up from a nap because she seemed out of it (this was the perkiest she's been for weeks!) After 5 months of no more than 2 hours sleep in a row (if we're lucky!) and the last week where on top of that she has been awake to play from 2am-5am, we decided to go for it and try sleep training.

We are part way in to our first night. She fell asleep after 33 minutes of crying (DH went in at 1 minute, 3 minutes, 5 mins, 5 mins then 10).

It's been tough but I just want to see my little girl without dark circles, and not clawing at her face all day because she's so exhausted. I also don't want DH to screw up at work abd get fired. I hope to God this works. It's horrible hearing her cry, but I keep telling myself it's for her own good...


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## libbylou

Irish - YES. I always wanted two kids until I had LO. Now between her terrible sleeping and her high needs personality and my terrible PPD I am terrified to have another one (not exagerating, the thought actually makes me feel like vomiting). DH has always said lets have one first and then see and now he says no way, he can't watch me go through this again!!
Glad the 20 min wakings have stopped and hope that the 1-2 hour wakings get better too

AngelUK - I honestly cannot imagine having two bad sleepers - hats off to you momma!

lysh - 3:55am?? Crikey. That sucks.

Noelle - good to hear a positive story about meds. Last night I didn't take anything before bed and had a terrible sleep, spent most of the night lying there awake

Bananaz - glad you guys had a good night! I tried stuffing LO with rice cereal a couple times...never worked :nope:

babybumplove - I always go "easier" on LO when she's not feeling well...hope your LO is feeling better 

aimee - glad you are finally seeing some better sleeping!

shadowy - my LO wakes a lot for no particular reason....usually she just needs a rock and a cuddle.

jessica - thats so awesome that Lilly is still sleeping great!

Last night wasn't great again. I had a tough time falling asleep. LO slept 3.5 hours for her first stretch but was waking up and whinging just enough to keep me awake every half hour during that time...then she slept 1.5 hours before coming to bed with us. Luckily she settled nicely in bed with us until about 6am and then slept in her crib from 6-8am.


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## BabyBumpLove

Ok ladies Im sorry I am being selfish and just posting about me right now. I am reading all of your posts with a fine tooth comb hoping to find something youre doing that maybe I can try!!:shrug:

Do you ever just know you are in for a bad night with baby before it even begins ha-ha. :cry: My husband came home from work to find me almost in tears from exhaustion. He then declared that he didnt care what the books said we are going to try keeping baby up later so he will sleep later. I think we all know I am in for a long night! My son usually goes to bed and down for naps after being awake for 1 hour and 45 min, 2 hours TOPS! Well this evening we managed to keep my poor miserable, tired baby up for 4 HOURS! :nope: I kept trying to abandon the plan, but my hubby insisted we give it a try. So here we go, wish me luck. I have a feeling that tonight is going to be a challenging one!:dohh:


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## libbylou

bumpbear - Don't feel guilty. I chose to do sleep training for the same reasons as yo. My LO hit the sleep regression at 3 months and rarely slept longer than 45-60 mins at a time and it was often hours of fighting to get her to sleep in the first place. She was a mess, I was a mess, DH was a mess, it was awful.
I chose to "camp out" in her room and intermitently offer comfort based on her level of upset. Within a week she was sleeping much better and we actually had like two weeks of amazing sleep (by my books it was amazing!). Then she got 2 teeth, then a cold, then an ear infection and we're still trying to recover
However at least now she goes to sleep without 3 hours of crying and sleeps longer than 45 mins and her naps are much better
Good luck and stay strong momma!

babybumplove - I hope keeping him up later works! I've read that it works for some babies! Though they suggest slowly pushing bedtime back (1/2 at a time for a couple days) until you reach the desired bedtime.
and yes I know the feeling of "holy crap this night is going to suck":nope:


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## MiniKiwi

libbylou said:


> I've been struggling with PPD since LO was born and the anxiety insomnia is definitely a part of it. Meeting with my dr in two weeks to discuss the possibility of putting me on some sort of med to help me through this
> DH helps but not as much as I'd like (he's getting better slowly, he was totally useless when she was first born). LO is very very attached to me which makes it hard for other people to help because she tends to only want me...and my anxiety makes it hard for me to leave her or accept help from other people which is a vicious cycle!
> My inlaws are totally useless...my mum helps but lives 3 hours away so we see her for a few days probably once a month and she has a lot of physical disabilities so she can't even help much...it's mostly all on me! :(
> And no, she won't take a pacifier...which sometimes I'm happy about because I don't have to worry about weaning her off it but sometimes I wish I could just pop one in her mouth!

You know, I don't even have any advice. Just know you're doing AMAZINGLY, especially with so little help. I really hope things start going better for you soon :hugs:



bananaz said:


> Last night was really good for us. She went down at 6:30pm and had wakings at 1:30am, 2:30am and 4:30am but I only fed her at the last one - the first two she resettled herself after 5-10 minutes of whining. Then she slept in until 6:30am! :happydance:
> 
> It could just be a coincidence but I did manage to get a good amount of solids into her yesterday, unlike the previous few days (I cheated and gave her rice cereal for dinner after the refused the fruit and veggies purees I'd tried :blush:).

So happy you had a good night... I don't even understand what is wrong with rice cereal..but tbh, I don't even know what it is :wacko: Just some kind of mush with no nutritional value? haha, keep it up anyway and let me know if it works :haha:



Shadowy Lady said:


> I don't know why she wakes up and fusses if she's not hungry or in pain. The pedi appt is tomorrow and hopefully she'll give me some answers. I'm driving myself crazy here with my inconsistent baby :(

I used to drive myself crazy wondering stuff like that too. Life has been much easier now that I've just accepted it, LO sometimes sleeps well, sometimes bad. I don't dread night times anymore :) But I hope your doctor can ease your mind some



bumpbear said:


> LO was a good sleeper until 4 month sleep regression hit, then all hell broke loose at night times, and for naps.
> 
> DH was too tired- scratch that- too exhausted to go in to work this morning for a very important meeting. Yesterday, at baby group, one of the staff asked if she had just woken up from a nap because she seemed out of it (this was the perkiest she's been for weeks!) After 5 months of no more than 2 hours sleep in a row (if we're lucky!) and the last week where on top of that she has been awake to play from 2am-5am, we decided to go for it and try sleep training.
> 
> We are part way in to our first night. She fell asleep after 33 minutes of crying (DH went in at 1 minute, 3 minutes, 5 mins, 5 mins then 10).
> 
> It's been tough but I just want to see my little girl without dark circles, and not clawing at her face all day because she's so exhausted. I also don't want DH to screw up at work abd get fired. I hope to God this works. It's horrible hearing her cry, but I keep telling myself it's for her own good...

I know it's probably a stupid question (but I'm paranoid now after my LO was sick) but have you had her checked over by a doctor?

I really hope for you, your DH and your LO that CC works. You poor things! You're doing the right thing for her, you have to do something if she's that miserable :hugs:


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## pink_rulez

Iv always belived you either get a good day naper or a good night sleeper, both my girls have been pretty good through out the night but can't sleep for more than 15/20 mins in the day so are always grumpy and over tired. 
I know it's hard but hang in there after months of stress and worry and doing everything i can to get her to nap Sophie finally figured it out at around 1yr she will now have a decent nap and sleeps pretty good at night, just keep thinking ur theough the qorst stages and there is light at the end of the tunnel and they will at some point work it out but evey baby is differnt. my mum n dad were savers when Sophie was little and now again I have Evelyn as they would have sophie and now have both for one weekend a month so I could get a decent rest and nights sleep.
Xx


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## Irish Eyes

Libby I think you're amazing being able to deal with the sleep deprevation as well as PPD. 

To those ladies that are working or have more than one child, I am in awe!! There is no way I could be working right now, not productively anyway.

We had a lovely day yesterday! Great morning playing & he had a good nap. Babyclub in the afternoon and went to my mums after where he had an hour nap on her (she loves it and claims he "holds her down" so she has to nap as well!) He ate well and played well. The night was awful!!! He woke at least every hour. Hubby didn't have to go to work today so offered to do the full night shift (I have to wake him to tell him LOs awake) and this morning he said he has no idea how I cope on my own! When he's home we usually split the nights so it's not so bad.

With sleep training I feel like a complete hypocrite. I worked as a nanny for ages and helped others with using sleep training but won't use it on mine. I also feel like a failure in the sence that I've worked with kids for years but I can't get my own to sleep properly!

Jessica i'm hoping that we have your situation where he surprises us overnight by sleeping!!


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## Noelle610

BumpBear, I hope the sleep training works for you and quickly! I've had friends who have seen amazing results within 3 days.

BabyBump, don't feel bad about talking about yourself... I started this thread doing the same :) Tell your OH that it's fine to keep the baby up, but if he wakes more often from bein overtired that he has to tend to him while you sleep with earplugs! Let us know how it works out. 

Pink, I am lucky that Charlotte napps pretty well. That said, I work full time and don't get to take advantage of it!

Last night started out great. Charotte went down around 6:45am. She slept until just before 5am, then was really restless. Of course this happened the day after I was telling you ll how great it is that Charlotte doesn't wake early.... Karma! I comforted her three times and she FINALLY went back to sleep at 6amor so. Of course I had to get up then. My DH checked on her at 6:15 and said he smelled a poo.... I feel like such a bad mom! Anyway, it's really hard if Charlotte wants to get up early on a weekday. By the time we get to daycare, she is VERY overtired and it throws all of the naps for the day off. She can usually only be awake for 2 hours in the morning. On the weekends, it's fine, because she just naps a bit earlier and has 3 naps instead of 2.


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## jessicatunnel

Our night started off weird. Her naps were REALLY messed up. So when 530 came around she wad exhausted so I had no choice but to put her down. She woke up at 630 and was wide awake and happy. She didn't end up going to bed until 8pm and slept through until seven where my dh actually got up with her because he didn't have to be at work until 830, which I thought was very nice of him. :D


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## Noelle610

Sounds like the 5:30 sleep was a nap Jessica. Sounds like a great night! 

Irish, I hear you on the sleep training. I've always said I'd let my baby CIO if they were a bad sleeper when I was pregnant. Everyone I know does it. Never thought I'd find it so hard after I had her!


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## libbylou

So our night last night
Down to sleep 7:45-8pm
Awake for first feed 3:15 am :happydance:
Back to sleep in crib after 15 mins nursing
Awake 6:30 am
Dozed and nursed in bed with me until 7:15am

TWO wakings! 7.5 hours of sleep in a row!!!! :happydance: (of course I was awake every couple hours wondering if she was dead :rofl:)


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## bananaz

Yay for good nights!! Especially libby - that's awesome, I hope she decides to go for a repeat performance tonight.

We had an unusually good night as well. She went to bed at 7pm, got up at 3am for a feed, and then went back down until 6am. So an 8-hour stretch and only one waking! :happydance: I'm a little scared though because I'm getting sick and I'm worried she's going to catch it and everything's going to fall apart again. Meh.


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## Aimee1003

Libby and Bananaz- I am so jealous!!!

C went to bed at 7pm woke up at 10. He woke again at 11:40 and I decided not to feed him but to rock him. Fastforward one hour and I decided fine, have the boob!!! Of course he fell asleep then. he was back up at 6:15 and awake for day at 6:10. So his longest stretch was a little over 3 hrs. ergh!!!

I don't know what to do. I guess I just have to wait this phase out. I almost wish I could sleep train that with his weight problems, I can't. I guess I need to focus on strategies to allow me to get more sleep. Like giving him to DH when he wakes in the am on weekends and going back to sleep. Trying to work through the sleep problems while working full time is EXHAUSTING.

But my husband and I do want to have a second child. We figure that it would be better to have 1 now while we're not sleeping than to wait get use to sleeping again and then have to go through the sleep deprivation all over again. We are going to start trying after little one turns 1.


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## MiniKiwi

Libby! :wohoo: that made me laugh, you waking every two hours wondering if she was dead. Haha. So happy you had a good night

Bananaz, what a great night. Hoping little miss doesn't get sick

Aimee :hugs: hope you get some rest soon

We had a good night, apart from one long wake up, I HATE those! Bed at 6:30 with no rocking (yessss!) and woke her for a dreamfeed at 11:30 then she woke up at 3 and had a change and feed and didn't go back to sleep until 4:30 then up at 7:30. I guess being up for so long in the night tired her out enough to have a sleep in. She was really unsettled during the long wake up, crying and such :( All in all, not the worst night. I stupidly went to bed at 12:30 so I'm a little tired today :coffee:


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## MiniKiwi

Noelle, so glad you had another good night. I hate when you miss a poo, makes you feel so awful, doesn't it? I remember when Mia was maybe 8 weeks old and I used to find her pooing and grunting so funny that I videoed it. Then I got ready and we went out and I forgot about the poo I just videoed! She was all fine but I remembered when we were out and hurried home to find her nappy a ripped up, pooey mess lmao! I almost cried over it hahaha!

Hoping your good nights continue :hugs:


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## stephj25

sorry I haven't been on this thread for a bit, I haven't read the last few pages (and there are quite a few) since I last came in here so I'll look at the last page only!!

*Jessica Tunnel, LibbyLou & bananaz* - sounds like your LO's are doing well, yey!!!
*Noelle* - I know what you mean about the crying, I feel like my heart is on the verge of exploding if my LO cries for more than 5mins, not sure whether that is normal as a lot of my friends go down the 'cry it out' route....

MiniKiwi & Aimee. I'm kinda with you guys at the minute, some days Olivia will wake twice in the night, some days it's every 3 hours. Last night she woke up at 12am & 3am and wouldn't settle after nursing her at 3am. I waited until 4am and nursed her again. She finally fell back to sleep until 7:30, nursed her again and she woke at 9am after that.

If I had the same sort of night every night then I wouldn't really be so exhausted but because it differs every night I forget who I am in the morning!! Also realised that I'ved walked straight out of WW26 into WW37. oh the joys!


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## MiniKiwi

Ugh Steph! Those long wake ups are so awful aren't they?! I'm feeling much more positive now that I expect unpredictability, if you know what I mean? I'm not wondering why so much and just hoping for good nights. I hope you get a break soon! :hugs:


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## Larkspur

Sounds like a few of the babies here have been on the improve! My LO is now down to two wakeups a night (from up to eight) so I am feeling pretty good!

It's funny how your expectations adjust. A friend whose baby is two days older than mine was horrified that my LO has been waking twice a night. :haha: Her baby has slept through virtually every night since he was 10 weeks old. Which is enough to make anyone insanely jealous. However... I don't know I feel about the fact that the reason he does that, as far as I can tell, is that she started sleep-training by CIO when he was four weeks old. For naps and bedtime, she just puts him down and shuts the door. Couldn't do that, myself. :nope:


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## stephj25

Larkspur said:


> Sounds like a few of the babies here have been on the improve! My LO is now down to two wakeups a night (from up to eight) so I am feeling pretty good!
> 
> It's funny how your expectations adjust. A friend whose baby is two days older than mine was horrified that my LO has been waking twice a night. :haha: Her baby has slept through virtually every night since he was 10 weeks old. Which is enough to make anyone insanely jealous. However... I don't know I feel about the fact that the reason he does that, as far as I can tell, is that she started sleep-training by CIO when he was four weeks old. For naps and bedtime, she just puts him down and shuts the door. Couldn't do that, myself. :nope:

Gah! I'd feel awful if I did that! I'd be petrified of SIDS too. I still check on olivia during naps if I haven't heard a peep for an hour...just to make sure she's still breathing! Maybe I'm just paranoid!


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## MiniKiwi

Larkspur - it seems to be the done thing, here at least. In my baby group, 10 babies the same age, mine is the only one who doesn't sleep really well. She's also the only one who hasn't been sleep trained! I got to talking to everyone about it when we were chatting about how the babies sleep and everyone was mortified by Mia's habits! One, a preemie even, was left to CIO as soon as they got him home from the scbu :nope: and the one that really bothers me, she leaves her LO to CIO but when she can't handle it anymore she'll go and pick him up - after an hour of crying. So he still screams every single night :( How is he supposed to learn with that kind of inconsistency?!

Obviously I can't say anything but even if I did, none of them would take advice or suggestions from me, the only one who has to rock LO to sleep and she wakes up in the night for hours sometimes.


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## libbylou

The fact that people let their young babies CIO horrifies me. CIO in and of itself is not for me, but to let a young baby who cannot soothe itself and NEEDS his/her parents cry themselves to sleep makes me feel ill.
We did sleep train but I only did it because our current situation was making everyone (including LO) miserable, I waited until the recommended 6 months and we "camped out" in her room and still offered comfort to her so she wasn't left alone to scream her lungs out (sort of a modified CC I guess)


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## lysh

I could not imagine leaving a newborn to CIO. That makes me sad. :( We had to hold our LO for pretty much the first 4 months of her life. 24/7. It was that, or she would cry. We did some CC when she was 4 1/2 months just to get her into her crib and not waking up every hour. However, once she accepted her crib for evening sleep and started waking up every 2 1/2-3 hours, I would just feed her. Now she is about 6 months and I am waiting to see if she naturally gets a little better than every 3-4 hours ( usually 3). My doctor is afraid though that if she consistently goes past 4 hours between feedings that it might affect my supply! ugh...not sure I can that for another 6 months though.

I am glad some of you ladies are getting better sleep!!! Aimmee- I like your philosophy that you might as well have another while already sleep deprived! I shared that with DH.


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## MrsPMP

Im still feeling hopeless......arrrggghhhhhhh its 1:30am n hes just dropped off to see in my arms.....now To put him down


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## Shadowy Lady

MrsPMP - aaaaaa that's gotta be rough :/ does he sleep in your room?

CIO for newborn makes no sense! They still need to eat often and I don't believe they can learn to sleep differently at that age. I can't do CIO anyway. We did Ferber for soother elimination which meant checking on her every 1, 3 and then 5 minutes and even that was tough for me though it took only 2 nights. i could not imagine closing the door and walking away....

We had Sofia's 4-months appt today. The pedi said based on her growth, weight (she's 17 lbs which is exactly double her birth weight of 8.5 lbs) and night pattern she should be able to sleep 10 hours or more w/o need for bf'ing. So I'm gonna gradually night wean her starting next weekend at the same time as taking the Woombie away. We're gonna use Ferber and this time stick to it. Unless I find a more gentle but also affective method.


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## Leids

So I posted here awhile ago, thought I'd update!

I bought the no-cry sleep solution book, and it's helped a bit. He's down to 1 wake up in the middle of the night after 4 hours, maximum he'll wake up twice. Such a huge improvement!! His bed time isn't where it should be, but we're slowly making progress there too. He was in bed at 10:30 vs. 12:30-1 tonight, we were down to 10:30 every night but we hit another slump for a week where he wasn't in bed until 1am.

My friend recommended lavender oil. I had some and put it into an oil diffuser, it seemed to calm him down but I'm concerned about it maybe being too much? The smell is pretty strong!


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## bananaz

*MrsPmp* - Hope you were able to put him down okay!

*Shadowy* - Good luck with the night weaning. Hopefully once her feeds are shifted to the daytime she'll stop waking on her own without having to use CC!

*Leids* - I'm so glad to hear things are going better for you guys. What parts of the No-Cry Sleep Solution book are you using?


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## Leids

There have been a few things that have helped, doing sleep journals in general has helped me develop a better routine for him. One thing that has helped a good amount with night wakings has been pretending to stay asleep if he jostles and sits up. He has a tendency to wake up out of nowhere and sit straight up - if I respond to him right away, he'll stay up and it takes a long time to get him to sleep. There was a bit in the book about pretending to stay asleep while listening to the baby to make sure that he's okay, so I did it. Lo and behold, after 5 minutes or so of him moving around, back to sleep he went! He never cried or anything either.

Another thing that's helped, and I believe I got the idea from the book but it wasn't said directly that I remember, was making the bed for sleep only. Because I live with the in-laws, I have a tendency to stay in the bed room and not leave. Everything is done in the room, the bed was basically my couch! I started spending a lot more time downstairs, and only going upstairs or spending time on the bed if it was time for him to sleep. 

I'm still going through the book and doing night time sleep/nap logs, waking logs etc. I implemented a better bed time routine with the book, and constantly move his bed time back. I usually start shutting everything down and make everything quiet around 8pm. It's been a long and grueling process, but we're getting there. :)


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## Noelle610

MrsPMP, sorry you're having a rough time :(

Good luck with the night weaning Shadowy! It was actually easy for us - a very tough couple of day, but after Charlotte got used to it she started sleeping way better!

Lieds, thanks for the update! I'm really glad to hear that the book has been helpful. Sounds like a huge improvement.

CIO and newborns = UGH. My DH's best friends, who think they know *everything* about parenting, were constantly telling us that babies didn't need to eat in the night after 6 weeks old and we should just let Charlotte cry and "figure it out". Even after sending them multiple sources with evidence to the contrary, they still insist that this is true. I'm not one to believe most of the negative reports about sleeping training (the most recent research seems to indicate it's not harmful at all), but I imagine it's detrimental to one so young. Their five year old never sleeps through the night now and is always trying to sneak in with mommy. Could there be a connection? Who knows.

We had a STTN last night from 6:45am and still sleeping now at 6:20am. Yay! I go back to the doctor today to get some persription refills to help with my anxiety and insomnia. I must admit I'm a bit worried they won't give me refills (silly, I know) and that I will stop sleeping well. Wish me luck!


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## stella26

Hi Everyone,
I'm def. not a fan of CIO but I'm starting to rethink it. My DD is 8 1/2 months and cannot self soothe. For the last couple of weeks she wants to be latched on ALL night or she won't sleep. She is not even doing a 2 hour stretch AT ALL at night which inturn is making me tired, moody, and not able to be the mom I want to be.
If this doesn't stop soon I'm a consider sleep training, I think she is old enough now to have some.


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## Noelle610

Stella, I think it's fine to consider sleep training at 8 months. If your LO has a suck to sleep association that is so strong that it results in little sleep for you or her, sleep training may work well. Let us know what you decide. Regardless, hoping you both get some rest soon!


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## jessicatunnel

Noelle, yay for sleeping through the night! It's so awesome isn't it?!

Stella (love that name), your LO is definitely old enough to consider sleep training. If you're not a fan of CIO could you try CC and modify it to your standards?

Lilly slept through again last night, it's been exactly ONE week since she started sttn. :happydance: She went down at 7pm and slept until 830am. I tend to turn on the monitor about 6am just so I know for sure I hear her when she's ready to wake up in the morning, and I heard her wake up at about 645 and she was babbling to herself and went back to sleep about ten minutes later and slept until 830. :D


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## Noelle610

jessicatunnel said:


> Noelle, yay for sleeping through the night! It's so awesome isn't it?!

It's like a dream I never thought possible! Ours isn't as consistent as yours, but I am so, so thankful. 

So... Six out of my office of ten are out sick today with the flu. I'm terrified for a multitude of reasons that Charlotte and I will get it, but particularly because I am scared for her sleep!

Random thought - Isn't it funny that in a year or two this sleep stuff will *hopefully* be a distant memory? I doubt these kids will be in college exclaiming, "Well, I slept through the night at 2 weeks old!".


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## Leids

Thought I'd share this since it helped me with some of the sleep problem(s).

I found this smart phone app that has done me wonders called iBaby. My little man never used to have a 'routine' and it took a week or two after logging to develop something solid. It's a huge pain to write in a journal when you're barely awake. I had developed a nice huge excel spreadsheet too. :haha:

I should have known there would be an app that easily did everything though. The app logs sleep time, wake time, when they nurse/eat, when they poop and pee. I think a big part of why I've been able to move his bedtime back is because of logging.

I have a samsung gs3, so on the google play store. I don't know if it's for iphones though. I've found a few things called 'ibaby' for iphone but it isn't the one that I have for android. :(

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.appest.ibaby&hl=en

Wow, it sounds like I just wrote an advert. :rofl:


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## Shadowy Lady

Leids - I'm glad to hear your LO is sleeping better. I have the no Cry Sleep Solution Book and I found it did help to develop a routine based on my LO's own natural sleep cycle.

Stella - You don't need to do CIO but you can definitely sleep train. I've mentioned in this thread before, but read Ferber's book and try the Sleep Association section. Contrary to what ppl say, he doesn't advocate CIO. It's more like checking on baby every 1,3 5 mins or so...never leaving them for more than 10 mins. We tried it at 3.5 month for soother and Sofia can self sooth now. 

Noelle - Don't worry I'm sure you'll get the meds again :) and good on Charlotte for continuing with sttn...we'll start night weaning next weekend. Hope it goes as well as it did for you.

So Sofia slept at 7 pm as per usual last night but woke up at 11:30 pm. I went it to feed her after 15 mins but she had fallen asleep already. Then she stayed asleep till 5:00 am!! I fed her then and she slept till 8:20 am. I don't know if it's the shot or she's getting back to her old self but I like it.

My pedi recommended to get her on a better napping schedule. This agrees with what the nurse told me last week too. So now I'm getting her to nap at around 9 am, 12:30 pm and 3 pm. If we're out and about, I just shift her bedtime. I've been doing it for two days but maybe it's working already? 

On the negative side I was barely getting over my cold and now have another one :( Lost my voice again, have earache and runny nose...booooo! I hope Sofia doesn't catch it from me


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## bananaz

*jessica* - Congrats on your one week STTN milestone, heheh. May it be the first week of many!

*stella* - 8 months is definitely old enough for sleep training. And like Noelle said, if your LO's primary issue is a sucking-to-sleep association then sleep training is likely to be very effective for you. There's no reason you have to use a method you're not comfortable with though - you might try Ferber's "progressive waiting" (AKA controlled crying) with shorter intervals and see how it goes. 

*Leids* - I'm glad you've found a method that's helping! Careful, though, sleep logging can become addictive. I've been logging all of Elsie's sleep using the Trixie Tracker since she was a month old and I still love going through all the data trying to pick out patterns...

*Shadowy* -Wow, good going, Sofia! It sounds like whatever you're doing is working! Sorry to hear you're feeling sick though.


Last night was really good, at least for Elsie. She went down a little before 7pm and woke at 3:30am for a quick feed. It's now almost 8am and she's still asleep! I can't even remember the last time she slept in past 6:30am so this is kind of shocking. Unfortunately I think it's because she's caught my cold, which actually kept me up for most of the night.

Also, yesterday I'm pretty sure she tried to go down for the night when I put her down for a nap at 3:45pm! I woke her at 5:20pm, though, because she needed her meds and I knew she hadn't eaten enough. I'm hoping it's just because she's getting sick and not because she needs an earlier bedtime; 6:30pm is about as early as I want to go.


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## Aimee1003

I am so happy that most of you are seeing such success. It really does make me feel hopeful although a little jealous. I hope we are next!

I think I have hit my breaking point . No idea what to do next. LO was up from 10-1. Got him to sleep 6 times but he woke up every time I laid him down. That is not like him. I cried. Finally laid him down with me on the pallet on the floor. We have never bed shared before. Never will again. He was on the boob nonstop from 1-6. Every time he let go he woke up searching for it again.

On the bright side , pediatrician said all the moms come in at 9 month check up saying their babies are no longer sleeping. She thinks maybe Coleton has hit this sleep regression early. Misery loves company.

I wish you all sleep filled nights. I love hearing all your stories - good or bad.


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## Noelle610

Bananaz, I'm glad you had a good night!

Aimee, that sounds so awful. I'm so very sorry for you. I do know it's common for babies to regress around 8/9 months.

I just got back from the doc, who perscribed me Trazodone for my insomnia. Apparently it's very popular/effective for postpartum insomnia and better for longer-term use that the Klonopin. Hope it works as well! She was great, though, and very understanding about how real it is.


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## libbylou

:coffee: Last night friggin sucked. LO was up constantly until around 1am when I finally got her settled in our bed. She nursed constantly (literally nonstop)from 1am until around 6:30am when I tried to get her settled back in her crib and she refused. I maybe got like 5 hours of broken sleep again because of the constant nursing and moving around in bed.
And she fought her morning nap for a good 45 mins.
Guess she wanted to make sure I was an anxious exhausted mess for my PPD support group this afternoon? :cry: 

Will come back and catch up with the rest of the thread later. Need to go have a shower while she's napping cuz God knows it won't happen once she's awake


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## Aimee1003

libbylou said:


> :coffee: Last night friggin sucked. LO was up constantly until around 1am when I finally got her settled in our bed. She nursed constantly (literally nonstop)from 1am until around 6:30am when I tried to get her settled back in her crib and she refused. I maybe got like 5 hours of broken sleep again because of the constant nursing and moving around in bed.
> And she fought her morning nap for a good 45 mins.
> Guess she wanted to make sure I was an anxious exhausted mess for my PPD support group this afternoon? :cry:
> 
> Will come back and catch up with the rest of the thread later. Need to go have a shower while she's napping cuz God knows it won't happen once she's awake


You and I had a mirror image night!!!


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## Noelle610

UGH Libby that's awful!


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## Boo44

Jessica/Noelle/anyone with sttn success(!) do your LO's self settle at bedtime?

Jack is getting ry good at self settling! *touch wood* I had a paranoia about his dummy becoming an awful habit but i lay him down with it in kiss him then turn and leave the room. I hear him gurgling to himself and fussing in a very minor fashion, then all quiet. When I creep back in to check him 99.9% of the time his dummy isn't even in any more. 

I had been going to him when he wakes around 5.30 or 6ish to pop his dummy in and he would sleep til 7. Last few days I have heard him at 6ish but he's fussed even after his dummy is in, so I've just left him (obv not upset) and he went back to sleep!! So now I'm wondering if I should even go in there at that point

He went through a phase over Christmas of waking every day around 5-5.30 and *touch wood* this has gone to half 6 or even 7.20 yesterday - record!!! The difference I have made this week is giving him bottle at 3.30pm and solids at 5pm (before I was doing both bottle and solids between 3.30-4pm). I really wonder if that has helped him sleep later?

Hope I've not jinxed it now!!


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## mrsbeano

Boo, I was talking to my Mum and she was saying that I need to do that because Quinn STILL has a bottle every night. 

Hes at nursery so has meals at 8am, 11 & 3 but then only bottles until bed at 7.30. She said to give him something filling at 6ish and see if that gets him through. Going to give it a go tomorrow night. Soooo freakin over night feeds. 

See how it goes. He is definitely genuinely hungry as this is the only time he wakes up usually (aside from some deveopmental issues like crawling round the cot :dohh:). I tried offering less oz but he wouldn't settle until he'd had his full bottle. :nope:


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## Noelle610

Boo44 said:


> Jessica/Noelle/anyone with sttn success(!) do your LO's self settle at bedtime?
> 
> Jack is getting ry good at self settling! *touch wood* I had a paranoia about his dummy becoming an awful habit but i lay him down with it in kiss him then turn and leave the room. I hear him gurgling to himself and fussing in a very minor fashion, then all quiet. When I creep back in to check him 99.9% of the time his dummy isn't even in any more.
> 
> I had been going to him when he wakes around 5.30 or 6ish to pop his dummy in and he would sleep til 7. Last few days I have heard him at 6ish but he's fussed even after his dummy is in, so I've just left him (obv not upset) and he went back to sleep!! So now I'm wondering if I should even go in there at that point
> 
> He went through a phase over Christmas of waking every day around 5-5.30 and *touch wood* this has gone to half 6 or even 7.20 yesterday - record!!! The difference I have made this week is giving him bottle at 3.30pm and solids at 5pm (before I was doing both bottle and solids between 3.30-4pm). I really wonder if that has helped him sleep later?
> 
> Hope I've not jinxed it now!!

Boo, Charlotte does self-settle. I put her down drowsy, but awake. 

She also uses a pacifier. I know that some babies become super addicted to them and start waking through the night for it, but that hasn't been an issue for us either. Charlotte can kind of take it or leave it, but if she does wake early in the morning around that 5am mark it does help settle her back to sleep. I've also found it's helped comfort her when she's teething at night. So personally, I think what you are doing is fine. If it becomes a problem, you can always ditch it then. It doesn't sound to me like Jack has a suck-to-sleep association.

I always give Charlotte 10 minutes or so after I hear her wake to re-settle. I think it's wise to do that, because often she will go back to sleep and my intervening just wakes her further. The only time I don't wait is if she's sick.

I do think Charlotte sleeps best with a fully belly. I give her dinner at 5:15pm (usually try to get some fat in there, like yogurt, avocado or chicken) and her last bottle is around 6:30pm before bed :)


----------



## Noelle610

Who would have thought I'd be dealing out sleep advice when I started this thread? :)


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## Boo44

Lol Noelle I think of you as the sleep guru now! And bananaz :) Whenever I see a sleep thread I think 'ooh I hope Noelle or bananaz comments and gives them some advice' haha!

Yes I don't think he has a suck to sleep habit either. But he does love his dummy in the day it stops him crying if he's upset or tired. So I was confused whether it was a bad thing or not. But for us I think it's definitely helpful :)

My only worry when I see 6ish on the clock and I hear jack fussing is that if I leave him to fuss too long he'll get wide awake and that will be him up for the day. Which isn't too bad but because I know he'll go longer I always think ill try his dummy once. I may try giving him a bit longer and see....

Mrsbeano - I hope it works for you! Jack wasn't having a night bottle but he had developed some crazy early wakenings and I am beginning to wonder if the later tea is helping him in that way. 

Noelle - does Charlotte take a full bottle before bed? I think jack having his tea later means he's taking around 6-7 oz instead of 8-9 before bed. But I figure at this age solids are good so to drop a bit of milk there shouldn't hurt.


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## brunette&bubs

I know I am thread crashing but just wanted to give some hope to you ladies...

Sleeping gets remarkable better after they turn 1. At least that was my experience and friends experiences.

One thing I can recommend (even though its tough) is to not give anything to them in their crib that is a 'pacifier'... bottles, sippy cups, pacifiers, etc. That was revolutionary for us.

I know my advice was unwarranted but i HTH


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## jessicatunnel

Boo, Lilly doesn't self settle and is nowhere near close to it. LOL. I feed her to sleep and set her down. If I try putting her down drowsy but awake she loses it and screams the house down. :/

Sounds like you had an awesome night, it doesn't seem the paci is a problem right now so I'd continue doing what you're doing.
Lilly doesn't take a pacifier but sometimes I wish she would!


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## bananaz

Boo44 said:


> Lol Noelle I think of you as the sleep guru now! And bananaz :) Whenever I see a sleep thread I think 'ooh I hope Noelle or bananaz comments and gives them some advice' haha!

Haha I guess that's what happens when you're obsessive and spend all your free time reading baby sleep books and looking up sleep research online! :haha:


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## Noelle610

bananaz said:


> Boo44 said:
> 
> 
> Lol Noelle I think of you as the sleep guru now! And bananaz :) Whenever I see a sleep thread I think 'ooh I hope Noelle or bananaz comments and gives them some advice' haha!
> 
> Haha I guess that's what happens when you're obsessive and spend all your free time reading baby sleep books and looking up sleep research online! :haha:Click to expand...

Haha totally agree! Thanks for the kind words. Glad I can help someone :)

I've noticed Charlotte taking less and less of her bedtime bottle after a large dinner - sometimes only 4 or 5 ounces and she usually takes 6 or 7. I think that's normal and it doesn't seem to have affected sleep.


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## MiniKiwi

Noelle and Jessica, so glad things are continuing to go well for you two

Bananaz, what a great night! I hope it's not just cause she's sick. Makes me laugh that she keeps trying to go to bed for the night earlier and earlier... :p

Libby, so sorry you had such a bad night again. I really wish you lived nearby and I'd come and help you out some. Hope your support group manages to help a bit :hugs:

Aimee, :hugs: really sorry you're having such a tough time. I have ended up co sleeping a lot lately out of necessity but I HATE it. I don't get any sleep when she's in bed with me and then I wake up to her trying to eat my hair!

Mia did her old rocking for 2 hours trick between 6:30 and 8:30pm and she was clearly an overtired mess. She woke at 11:30 and then I went to bed. Then she woke at 12:30 and I just felt awful. I can't really remember the rest of the night.. I think it was 3 when she woke and 4:30 when she went back to sleep and then up for the day at 7. I'm having a hard time being positive about it all today! :coffee:


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## bananaz

MiniKiwi said:


> Bananaz, what a great night! I hope it's not just cause she's sick. Makes me laugh that she keeps trying to go to bed for the night earlier and earlier... :p

I know! One of these days I'm going to put her down for her 8am nap and she's going to decide it's bedtime! I'm scared to put her down now, haha





MiniKiwi said:


> Mia did her old rocking for 2 hours trick between 6:30 and 8:30pm and she was clearly an overtired mess. She woke at 11:30 and then I went to bed. Then she woke at 12:30 and I just felt awful. I can't really remember the rest of the night.. I think it was 3 when she woke and 4:30 when she went back to sleep and then up for the day at 7. I'm having a hard time being positive about it all today! :coffee:

Oh no, how awful, especially the 12:30 waking right after the 11:30 one! I hate when they wake right after you've gotten to sleep and you just know the rest of the night's going to be shit. Ugh. Hang in there :hugs:


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## lysh

mrsbeano- Night feeds are rough- I get the same way where I just feel over it, but my LO still takes 1-2 full feeds a night. She does actually eat, so I will continue to do it for now. It is hard though, some nights I am practically in tears when I hear LO crying!

Noelle- So Glad your girl is still sleeping well!!! What a relief, huh? You have given me hope!!!!

Boo- I understand your concerns about LO waking up. My dd will NOT take a paci for anything (we have tried just about every kind we could find!) but she has gotten into this habit lately that if it is early morning or nap time and we try to see if she will resettle in a few, she ends up waking up. This does not happen during the night, just morning and naps. 

Bananaz- Crossing fingers you get more good nights!

MiniKiwi- Nights like those are so rough!!! I can tell by the first half of the night how the rest will go. It is such an awful feeling when you just know it is going to be a tough one!!!

My girl had an awesome night last night. She only woke up once (even though it was a little hard getting her to settle back down- took 30 minutes) but the fact that she only woke up once is great! Then she slept until 5:15. I know that still is early, but considering she likes to wake up around 4-4:30, we are thrilled with anytime past 5!!!! I get up at 5:30 for work anyways. The only problem last night is that after I got her back to sleep (it was 1am) I was WIDE awake. I have no idea why considering I was SO FREAKING TIRED. This week I have been like a mindless zombie at work. So I had a very fitful sleep (if you even call it sleep) until wake-up time. Hoping for another good night and better sleep for myself!!!!!

Hang in there ladies!


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## libbylou

I'm fairly certain LO decided to have that awesome night two nights ago just to stick her thumb at me and go "look, I CAN do it...but I choose not to." :dohh:

She went down easily tonight at 7 and has been asleep two hours without a peep. I was convinced she was going to fight bedtime because she was really playful and hyper and trying SO hard to keep herself awake when I was trying to get her down. She yelled for about a min after I put her down and then went to sleep.

Stella - we sleep trained my LO at 6 months. Clearly it wasn't a magical cure since I'm still whinging about sleepless nights, but it did help a lot. Pre-sleep training LO would not self settle which meant we'd spent 1-3 hours trying to rock and nurse her to sleep while we both cried every night...and then she woke up every 45-60 mins all night long. I opted for sort of a modified CC. I did our bedtime routine and put LO down awake and then sat next to her crib at every nap and bedtime for a week and would ocassionally offer comfort based on her level of upset (either quietly assuring her, pat/shush, or pick up and rock until she was calm). She did cry, but at least I was there with her offering comfort and now she generally goes to sleep easily and sleeps way better than she did

Jessica/Noelle - glad to hear your LOs are still STTN!

shadowy - glad to hear you girls had a good night! I found a good nap schedule did help my LO for sure

bananaz - awesome night!!! :happydance: So excited for you!

Aimee - UGH. Sorry to hear you had the same bad night that we did. I don't generally mind bedsharing with LO but I HATE the nights when she's on my nipple all frickin night, I hardly sleep at all, especially cuz when she does let go of the nipple, I have to wake up enough to get her back on and I end up so sore from having her attached to me all night. 

minikiwi - so sorry you guys had a crappy night too :( Self settle Mia, self settle!! I know what you mean about having a hard time being positive...nights like last night do NOT help my PPD. I think I cried like 6 times today.

lysh - glad your LO had a good night but it sucks when they sleep and you can't!! Stupid insomnia!!


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## Irish Eyes

Noelle & Jessica it's so nice to see some progress! Really hope it continues! Noelle I hope the meds work, insomnia is horrible.

Libby I'm so sorry you're having crap nights, if it makes you feel any better then ours are awful at the moment :-(

LO used to self settle perfectly in his crib, not anymore! I had to rock him to sleep in his chair rocker last night as nothing else would work and then tranfer him to the crib half hour later. From around 10pm he would not sleep anywhere except on me! He wouldn't even bedshare, I had to be sitting upright holding him. He's started doing this weird thing when I lay him on his back where he twists himself as if he's trying to roll over. Occassionally if I put him on his belly then he'll sleep but mostly he just screams, it's like he can't get comfy.

So I had a little cry this morning realising that's another night with no sleep. My hubby feels so guilty that he can't help but he drives 4 hours everyday so it's not safe for him to be up.

Anyone got any ideas?! I really can't go on like this for much longer, I have no idea what I'm running on!!


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## MiniKiwi

Irish, I'm so sorry you're having such an awful time. I recently learned that 'sleepless nights' truly meant NO sleep and it's the toughest thing ever. I was up a few nights in a row when LO was sick and she didn't sleep at all, the poor thing. Because of that, I'm crazy worried about LO and then other people's LOs being ill! So I have to ask if you've taken him to the doctor to rule out any ear infections or similar. He hasn't got a temperature? Or is he having trouble with teething?

Have you got any family or friends nearby who could come over and entertain him for a couple of hours today so you can have a shower and a nap? It will make tonight much easier if it's another bad one. Or can hubby take him after work for a couple of hours? I really hope things are easier tonight :hugs:


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## Irish Eyes

He had an ear infection but it's cleared up now. He doesn't have a temp or seem like he's teething. My husband works 9 days on where he leaves at 6.30am and gets home at 9pm so he can't really help. He helps a lot during his days off though.

It's weird but I thought we'd be fighting off offers to help with LO. It's why we stayed where we're living now instead of moving near hubbys work as we're surrounded by his & my family, now I wish we hadn't bothered. It seems like the novelty of LO has worn off. I don't like being away from LO at all but I when my sister had her baby I used to watch him downstairs while she slept upstairs.

Does your baby roll over? Did she have trouble sleeping when she first learnt to roll? My LO is only just learning to do it & I don't know if he's learning so much at once that it's sending him a bit nuts?!


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## MiniKiwi

That's a real shame your families aren't around much. Is there any chance you can just be blunt and ask for help? I'm sure if they're free they wouldn't say no if you told them you're desperate for a nap, there's no shame in asking for some help. Everyone who has had a baby knows how overwhelming it can be.

My LO does roll and I actually vaguely remember writing in this thread when she was learning to roll. So I guess she did have some problems around the same time. It's pretty standard for some babies to be more sensitive to things like that and it affects their sleep. If he won't sleep all night though, I'd probably go back to the doctor. Is he eating solids? And having any troubles? Allergies? Not constipated? Do his nappies smell? I don't know, maybe it's normal but for us when she wouldn't sleep at all, she was ill and she's a different baby now. Her sleep is still sort of crap but nothing like how bad those sick nights were. The only wanting to be upright sounds as though his ears may be bothering him still. Have you tried giving him some painkillers at all?

Also, how you describe him twisting is how my LO sleeps all the time. She started sleeping that way when she learned to roll. I'll pop her down on her back and she'll re position herself to the side with both her arms up and over to one side, it's pretty cute!


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## Irish Eyes

His solids have increased a lot over the last couple of weeks, we're doing BLW and it took him a while to get the hang of it. Normal nappies, no constipation etc. I've got an appointment for him on Monday to double check his ears now his antibiotics have finished. 

I'm glad your little girl does the same twisting thing, was worried I had a contortionist on my hands, that position can't be comfortable!

My current moto is "this too shall pass!" Glad you're getting a bit more sleep. I'm looking forward to that!


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## Noelle610

Hey girls! Lysh you so deserve that good night. Long may it continue!

Irish, my baby's sleep when to shit when she learned to roll. I had to "rescue" her all night long when she didn't want to be on her tummy. It sucked! It did pass and now she happily sleeps on her tummy. I do think it's easy for our babies to get stuck in poor sleep habits after being ill, even though they've recovered. I would keep him in his crib no matter what (unless hungry) and just soothe him while he's there. He will get used to it!

We had a weird night. Charlotte was up a couple times because she was on all fours trying to crawl or sitting herself up. Wonder Week 37 type stuff... No biggie though, it was still a decent night!


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## stephj25

I know that there are a lot of people on this thread with LO's the same age as mine, just wondered if anyone else's LO has started the 8 month sleep regression? I'm hoping that because she started early that it will be over earlier...

Olivia wakes up every night between 2-3 and is awake between 1-2 hours. back in the early days, nursing her back to sleep was all it took but now that doesn't do anything...she just carries on crying, boo!!

I am back at work 20th Jan, that is going to be fun!


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## Noelle610

Steph, it's not a full on regression (YET) for us and Charlotte has been sleeping really well (STTN sometimes), but when she does wake recently she is on all fours rocking or sitting up and not knowing how to lay back down. My understanding is that the 8/9 month regression has to do with developmental milestones happening around this time, so I assume my LO's wakings are a symptom of this. I've heard when they learn to pull to stand it's the worst! I've been through this with the rolling, so I know it passes, but it did take Charlotte longer than most babies to *learn* that so I fear we may have these random nights of disrupted sleep for awhile. I just hope it doesn't become an all night, every night thing.

We do get those long night wakings from time to time as well. It seems like the better Charlotte sleeps, the worse her night wakings are when she does have them, as strange as that may sound. I think it's because if she does wake now there's a real reason. Not just struggling to return to sleep.


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## Shadowy Lady

Minikiwi - oh honey :( I know what you mean about not even remembering the rest of the night....

Lysh - glad things are starting to improve for you. Try and get some rest mama :)

Libby - lol, your LO is testing you? Hope she gives you a break tonight.

Last night was ok for us. I took some Advil night time to fight the cold symptoms so i could sleep and went to bed at 8:30. Sofia woke at 1 am when DH fed her with ebm. Then she woke again at 5:30 am and i fed her. She was up for the day at 8:30 am.

So we seem to be back to 1-2 wakeups per night until we start night weaning. I can live with that.

Noelle - I can't find your post on how you night weaned Charlotte. Can you please refresh my memory? Did you use Ferber?


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## stephj25

Noelle610 said:


> Steph, it's not a full on regression (YET) for us and Charlotte has been sleeping really well (STTN sometimes), but when she does wake recently she is on all fours rocking or sitting up and not knowing how to lay back down. My understanding is that the 8/9 month regression has to do with developmental milestones happening around this time, so I assume my LO's wakings are a symptom of this. I've heard when they learn to pull to stand it's the worst! I've been through this with the rolling, so I know it passes, but it did take Charlotte longer than most babies to *learn* that so I fear we may have these random nights of disrupted sleep for awhile. I just hope it doesn't become an all night, every night thing.
> 
> We do get those long night wakings from time to time as well. It seems like the better Charlotte sleeps, the worse her night wakings are when she does have them, as strange as that may sound. I think it's because if she does wake now there's a real reason. Not just struggling to return to sleep.

It seems to have become an every night thing for us. Olivia has already learnt loads in the last few days though, she is now crawling properly, can go into the sitting position by herself and can stand with furniture. Just put her down for her last nap and she's struggling bless her.
Not looking forward to the next few weeks, I hope it is better for you Noelle xx


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## libbylou

Last night started out great. LO slept soundly for 5 hours. Yay! Too bad I didn't sleep at all during that time and then after that she was up every hour until I took her into bed with us, and then she was up at 6:30. So another night of short lived crappy sleep for me.

I desperately need a nap today, hope LO decides to have a good one so I can try to rest too :coffee: 
I have a friend who offered to take LO for a couple hours tomorrow for me. I know I *should* take her up on it and nap, but I have a lot of anxiety about leaving LO, especially because she is so very attached to me and gets quite upset with most other people (like hysterical and inconsolable), she's definitely going through more separation anxiety than usual right now.

Irish - that sounds awful. I'm wondering if his ears didn't clear up too since he wanted to be upright all night. It could also be a developmental thing. LO learned to roll when she was still sleeping in her bassinet (which had no room to roll), so it was never an issue for her with sleeping

Steph - our girls are about the same age. My LO went through this in Dec. She's never had MOTN parties but for two weeks she suddenly started doing it. I think it was developmental stuff as she learned to do a whole bunch of stuff at once. She hasn't done it in a week or so now so I'm hoping she's done!


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## stephj25

libbylou said:


> Last night started out great. LO slept soundly for 5 hours. Yay! Too bad I didn't sleep at all during that time and then after that she was up every hour until I took her into bed with us, and then she was up at 6:30. So another night of short lived crappy sleep for me.
> 
> I desperately need a nap today, hope LO decides to have a good one so I can try to rest too :coffee:
> I have a friend who offered to take LO for a couple hours tomorrow for me. I know I *should* take her up on it and nap, but I have a lot of anxiety about leaving LO, especially because she is so very attached to me and gets quite upset with most other people (like hysterical and inconsolable), she's definitely going through more separation anxiety than usual right now.
> 
> Irish - that sounds awful. I'm wondering if his ears didn't clear up too since he wanted to be upright all night. It could also be a developmental thing. LO learned to roll when she was still sleeping in her bassinet (which had no room to roll), so it was never an issue for her with sleeping
> 
> Steph - our girls are about the same age. My LO went through this in Dec. She's never had MOTN parties but for two weeks she suddenly started doing it. I think it was developmental stuff as she learned to do a whole bunch of stuff at once. She hasn't done it in a week or so now so I'm hoping she's done!

ah thanks LibbyLou, that does make me feel a little better!! x


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## MiniKiwi

Steph- we're having the same thing and it's exhausting.

LO went to bed well at 7pm, rolled around then fell asleep by herself. She woke up 3 times before 8:30 and settled herself the last time! :D It would have been a great night without the 2 hours awake from 2am - 4am. Then she was up for the day at 7. I wish I could have gotten to sleep before 12:30 though

Libby, can your friend have LO at your house? So you're not far away if she freaks out and you feel more comfortable? Either way, I think you should take her up on the offer


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## Noelle610

Steph, I hope it doesn't last long for you.

MiniKiwi, those long wakings must be a developmental/age thing, since so many of us have experienced that recently with babies around the 7/8 month mark.

Libby, well I'm glad you got a good stretch! But I'm sorry you didn't get to take advantage of it and the rest of the night was kind of crap. I think you should take your friend up on her offer - maybe exposing LO to more people would help with the separation anxiety? 

Irish, I think Libby makes a good point - your LO's ears may still be bothering him. Probably worth a re-check. I know from friends it sometimes takes two rounds of antibiotics to combat an ear infection.

Shadowy Lady, glad you're getting some rest for that cold! Everyone is ill here in Baltimore. 8 out of 12 of my office mates were out with the flu on Friday. I'm terrified of Charlotte and I getting it. So, night weaning - I did not use Ferber. My ped recommended cold turkey between midnight and 5am. We decided to do a dream feed around 10pm, so that we were responding to all of Charlotte's night wakings consistently. We then soothed in other ways when she would wake. She really didn't want a night feed after 3 days or so - it was quick. She was a month or two older than Sophia, so Ferber may be a good way to go with her or perhaps a later dream feed if you go that route. We dropped the dream feed over the Christmas holiday while at my dad's out of pure laziness and thought we'd just feed when she woke and get back into good habits when we got home, but we found Charlotte didn't wake! Guess she was just ready.


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## bumpbear

libbylou said:


> bumpbear - Don't feel guilty. I chose to do sleep training for the same reasons as yo. My LO hit the sleep regression at 3 months and rarely slept longer than 45-60 mins at a time and it was often hours of fighting to get her to sleep in the first place. She was a mess, I was a mess, DH was a mess, it was awful.
> I chose to "camp out" in her room and intermitently offer comfort based on her level of upset. Within a week she was sleeping much better and we actually had like two weeks of amazing sleep (by my books it was amazing!). Then she got 2 teeth, then a cold, then an ear infection and we're still trying to recover
> However at least now she goes to sleep without 3 hours of crying and sleeps longer than 45 mins and her naps are much better
> Good luck and stay strong momma!
> 
> babybumplove - I hope keeping him up later works! I've read that it works for some babies! Though they suggest slowly pushing bedtime back (1/2 at a time for a couple days) until you reach the desired bedtime.
> and yes I know the feeling of "holy crap this night is going to suck":nope:

Thanks libbylou!

Sleep training has worked amazing for us.

We ferberised her.

Day 1: after following her bed time routine, DH put her in her crib sleepy but awake. He went in to reassure her for 2 minutes at a time after 1 minute, 3 minutes, 5 minutes, 5 minutes then 10 minutes before she finally fell asleep 33 minutes after we had initially put her in her crib. She cried quite a bit, but never hysterically. Most of the crying was from confusion because she couldn't understand why I wasn't nursing/ rocking her to sleep as usual. Some was from frustration as she tried to figure out how to put herself to sleep. And some of the time she just lay there quietly trying to figure out how to drift off. She still woke her usual 8 times that night. The first time she cried on and off for 15 minutes: DH went in twice to reassure her and she soothed herself back to sleep. The second time she cried for 7 minutes: DH went in once. The remaining 6 times she cried for 5 minutes or less and did not need a reassurance visit. The night was a major breakthrough for us because LO hadn't self soothed in 5 months since her 4 month sleep regression! I won't sugar coat it: it was heart wrenching leaving her to independently self soothe and not immediately pick her up to comfort her as I have been doing for the past 9.5 months. DH and I felt like total crap bags- like the worst parents ever and I sobbed.

The following morning, LO was exhausted because of the rough sleepless night she'd had so she was out of sorts. We played with her lots and gave her lots of cuddles to make sure she didn't feel abandoned. We felt so so bad seeing her even more exhausted than she usually is and almost decided not to stick with it that night. But we persevered and I am so glad we did!

Day 2: LO started crying at the end of her bedtime routine because I think she knew she'd have to self soothe again. We were so worried, we thought we had broken her as she doesn't usually cry at bedtime (it's her frequent wakings that were the problem, not actually going to bed!). DH put her down and she was asleep within 3 minutes for an 8 hour stretch! She did not even need a reassurance visit! She woke once in the night but put herself back to sleep. We should have got a good night's sleep but we couldn't believe she was actually asleep and kept going in to check on her as we were convinced our angelcare monitor must be broken.

The next morning, LO woke very happy and refreshed, full of smiles and cuddles for us. Her dark circles had diminished and she stopped clawing at her face and pulling on her hair all day. I was able to put her down in her crib for a nap for the first time ever (she usually naps on me or in her moving stroller), she played very energetically and actively all day and she ate all of her meals! I was amazed!

Day 3: DH put little one down sleepy but awake. She protested for less than thirty seconds and then was out like a light for 12 HOURS!

Today, she has been fabulous. Full of beans, very happy, napping well, eating well and she is glowing. 

I am so glad we did this. I had been totally against Ferber until I actually sat down and read the book and realised that it is a very flexible training technique that can be adapted to suit a method that you are comfortable with. I realise now that by dragging things out for months on end, trying endless no cry sleep solutions and hoping that LO would 'sleep when she was ready to', that I was doing LO a disservice and acting selfishly just because i could not bear to see her cry. Months on end of her being sleep deprived, clawing at her face, pulling at her hair and being utterly exhausted were far worse for her than the total of less than 70 minutes she has spent crying over 3 days using Ferber. I totally recommend this sleep training method and advise anyone to read the book itself and make their mind up.


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## libbylou

bumpbear! :happydance::happydance::happydance::happydance::happydance:
So glad you've seen such amazing results with the sleep training!

Once I did the sleep training, I too realized I wasn't doing anyone any favours by refusing to sleep train just because I didn't want LO to cry...instead I would spend hours trying to sooth her to sleep while she cried anyway. In the end the amount of crying she did while sleep training was significantly less than the amount of crying she used to do while we were trying to be "gentle" with her. 
I think sleep training was a huge favour for her because it taught her how to sleep and she is much happier for it now because she's not always an exhausted mess now

LO has had two 30 min naps today. Guess momma isn't getting any rest :nope:
She is exposed to other people regularly but is still very attached to me (always has been). Its flattering but exhausting and sometimes I wish she would love me just a little less :haha:


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## Boo44

bumpbear said:


> libbylou said:
> 
> 
> bumpbear - Don't feel guilty. I chose to do sleep training for the same reasons as yo. My LO hit the sleep regression at 3 months and rarely slept longer than 45-60 mins at a time and it was often hours of fighting to get her to sleep in the first place. She was a mess, I was a mess, DH was a mess, it was awful.
> I chose to "camp out" in her room and intermitently offer comfort based on her level of upset. Within a week she was sleeping much better and we actually had like two weeks of amazing sleep (by my books it was amazing!). Then she got 2 teeth, then a cold, then an ear infection and we're still trying to recover
> However at least now she goes to sleep without 3 hours of crying and sleeps longer than 45 mins and her naps are much better
> Good luck and stay strong momma!
> 
> babybumplove - I hope keeping him up later works! I've read that it works for some babies! Though they suggest slowly pushing bedtime back (1/2 at a time for a couple days) until you reach the desired bedtime.
> and yes I know the feeling of "holy crap this night is going to suck":nope:
> 
> Thanks libbylou!
> 
> Sleep training has worked amazing for us.
> 
> We ferberised her.
> 
> Day 1: after following her bed time routine, DH put her in her crib sleepy but awake. He went in to reassure her for 2 minutes at a time after 1 minute, 3 minutes, 5 minutes, 5 minutes then 10 minutes before she finally fell asleep 33 minutes after we had initially put her in her crib. She cried quite a bit, but never hysterically. Most of the crying was from confusion because she couldn't understand why I wasn't nursing/ rocking her to sleep as usual. Some was from frustration as she tried to figure out how to put herself to sleep. And some of the time she just lay there quietly trying to figure out how to drift off. She still woke her usual 8 times that night. The first time she cried on and off for 15 minutes: DH went in twice to reassure her and she soothed herself back to sleep. The second time she cried for 7 minutes: DH went in once. The remaining 6 times she cried for 5 minutes or less and did not need a reassurance visit. The night was a major breakthrough for us because LO hadn't self soothed in 5 months since her 4 month sleep regression! I won't sugar coat it: it was heart wrenching leaving her to independently self soothe and not immediately pick her up to comfort her as I have been doing for the past 9.5 months. DH and I felt like total crap bags- like the worst parents ever and I sobbed.
> 
> The following morning, LO was exhausted because of the rough sleepless night she'd had so she was out of sorts. We played with her lots and gave her lots of cuddles to make sure she didn't feel abandoned. We felt so so bad seeing her even more exhausted than she usually is and almost decided not to stick with it that night. But we persevered and I am so glad we did!
> 
> Day 2: LO started crying at the end of her bedtime routine because I think she knew she'd have to self soothe again. We were so worried, we thought we had broken her as she doesn't usually cry at bedtime (it's her frequent wakings that were the problem, not actually going to bed!). DH put her down and she was asleep within 3 minutes for an 8 hour stretch! She did not even need a reassurance visit! She woke once in the night but put herself back to sleep. We should have got a good night's sleep but we couldn't believe she was actually asleep and kept going in to check on her as we were convinced our angelcare monitor must be broken.
> 
> The next morning, LO woke very happy and refreshed, full of smiles and cuddles for us. Her dark circles had diminished and she stopped clawing at her face and pulling on her hair all day. I was able to put her down in her crib for a nap for the first time ever (she usually naps on me or in her moving stroller), she played very energetically and actively all day and she ate all of her meals! I was amazed!
> 
> Day 3: DH put little one down sleepy but awake. She protested for less than thirty seconds and then was out like a light for 12 HOURS!
> 
> Today, she has been fabulous. Full of beans, very happy, napping well, eating well and she is glowing.
> 
> I am so glad we did this. I had been totally against Ferber until I actually sat down and read the book and realised that it is a very flexible training technique that can be adapted to suit a method that you are comfortable with. I realise now that by dragging things out for months on end, trying endless no cry sleep solutions and hoping that LO would 'sleep when she was ready to', that I was doing LO a disservice and acting selfishly just because i could not bear to see her cry. Months on end of her being sleep deprived, clawing at her face, pulling at her hair and being utterly exhausted were far worse for her than the total of less than 70 minutes she has spent crying over 3 days using Ferber. I totally recommend this sleep training method and advise anyone to read the book itself and make their mind up.Click to expand...

Wow that's amazing! Good job momma! And daddy! Your OH sounds really supportive :)


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## Noelle610

Libby, my friend and I were just talking about this today. I think for some babies being more attached to mama is just their personality - not not being exposed to enough people or not being given the opportunity to play independently. That's probably true for your LO. I'm sorry you didn't get that nap! That's the worst after a tough night.

Bumpbear, I'm so happy that sleep training is working SO well for you. I don't really want to get into a debate about it on this thread, but I will say I think it's very easy to be against sleep training if your baby sleeps well or is even somewhat "normal" when it comes to night wakings. Of course there are people with horrible sleepers that are against sleep training, but I still think they have an understanding of how extremely desperate lack of sleep can get for moms and babies.


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## angelady

socitycourty said:


> Mine is too, she is such a bad sleeper/napper.
> 
> I have not had a straight sleep since May 31st (the day I went into labor)...She screams down the car every time. She cries all day. Gets up for bottles 2-3 times a night...I'm so out of it sometimes I get scared...Just a whine to commiserate. My niece has been sleeping through since she was 6 weeks old! I try hard not to compare :wacko:

i know this is an older post, but thank you so much for posting. my LO is only just 3 months (and from calculating, looks like your LO was ~ 6 months at the time) but i am feeling the exact same way. sleep is so difficult to come by for her and on top of that i feel like i'm competing with my sister for parenting styles and i'm losing out. i am so tired of feeling exhausted and zombie-like from lack of sleep and the baby's constant crying and fussing. i've tried to examine what i have been doing wrong, i will be taking advice from others...but its hard.

up till now even though the baby was very fussy, but once i did get her to sleep she would sleep for quite some time as long as were out at a coffee shop or mall where the white noise in the background would lull her to sleep almost indefinitely...despite being freezing cold getting there, once we got settled inside it was my true escape. quiet, no crying...at least for a good little while.....well not anymore. once she hit the 3 month mark she is so much more awake. after feeding she wants to e-x-e-r-c-i-s-e...for at least a half-hour we do standing exercises and in truth her little legs are getting a lot stronger, but this is hard to do in a busy coffee shop or food court of a mall. and its only if i'm lucky with good burping too, will she settle back to sleep when we're out--cuz of all the distractions.

so now my only little escape for a little break of reading a book/magazine is totally blown. at the coffee shop :coffee:today i was thoroughly embarrassed...not only was she fussy exercising, but she refused to make eye-contact with me and cry anytime i try to seat her...we left. when i got home i had to give almost another full 4 oz bottle and then she finally settled to sleep (i'm guessing i underfed her). the only reason i can write this post now is cuz she is sleeping...i pray with thanks for every additional minute of sleep i get out of her. ahhh....

if anyone could offer any advice i'd be truly thankful..we're at 3 1/2 months (dont know how i've survived so far) and am really hoping for an easier time going forward


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## Noelle610

angelady said:


> socitycourty said:
> 
> 
> Mine is too, she is such a bad sleeper/napper.
> 
> I have not had a straight sleep since May 31st (the day I went into labor)...She screams down the car every time. She cries all day. Gets up for bottles 2-3 times a night...I'm so out of it sometimes I get scared...Just a whine to commiserate. My niece has been sleeping through since she was 6 weeks old! I try hard not to compare :wacko:
> 
> i know this is an older post, but thank you so much for posting. my LO is only just 3 months (and from calculating, looks like your LO was ~ 6 months at the time) but i am feeling the exact same way. sleep is so difficult to come by for her and on top of that i feel like i'm competing with my sister for parenting styles and i'm losing out. i am so tired of feeling exhausted and zombie-like from lack of sleep and the baby's constant crying and fussing. i've tried to examine what i have been doing wrong, i will be taking advice from others...but its hard.
> 
> up till now even though the baby was very fussy, but once i did get her to sleep she would sleep for quite some time as long as were out at a coffee shop or mall where the white noise in the background would lull her to sleep almost indefinitely...despite being freezing cold getting there, once we got settled inside it was my true escape. quiet, no crying...at least for a good little while.....well not anymore. once she hit the 3 month mark she is so much more awake. after feeding she wants to e-x-e-r-c-i-s-e...for at least a half-hour we do standing exercises and in truth her little legs are getting a lot stronger, but this is hard to do in a busy coffee shop or food court of a mall. and its only if i'm lucky with good burping too, will she settle back to sleep when we're out--cuz of all the distractions.
> 
> so now my only little escape for a little break of reading a book/magazine is totally blown. at the coffee shop :coffee:today i was thoroughly embarrassed...not only was she fussy exercising, but she refused to make eye-contact with me and cry anytime i try to seat her...we left. when i got home i had to give almost another full 4 oz bottle and then she finally settled to sleep (i'm guessing i underfed her). the only reason i can write this post now is cuz she is sleeping...i pray with thanks for every additional minute of sleep i get out of her. ahhh....
> 
> if anyone could offer any advice i'd be truly thankful..we're at 3 1/2 months (dont know how i've survived so far) and am really hoping for an easier time going forwardClick to expand...

I SO relate to your post! My LO has always napped well with white noise and for a long time my sanity was saved by bringing her to Starbucks and letting her nap while I read a book or a magazine. I loved those times to myself and it was great that she was getting sleep! That all went out the window at around 10 weeks and my previously good daytime sleeper (she never slept well at night) refused to nap. I think it's pretty common. A swing really helped us at that age and we weaned her off of it later. Also, make sure you're not keeping her up too long. At that age, my LO had to be asleep about every 90 minutes or so. 

I also very much relate to some other things, as I'm sure some of the regulars do too... The zombie-like feeling is pure hell. Feeling like "you're doing something wrong" is awful, as is the feeling of competition with others. We know we shouldn't compare, but it's hard not to. Lots of the moms in my group had babies that STTN from 6 weeks old and I felt like the fact that my baby didn't sleep well was a comment on my parenting.

Hang in there. Everyone's situation is different, but I have a reflux baby who's reflux got significantly better after she began eating solids, sitting unaided and we night weaned (6.5 months or so). She often sleeps through now and when she does wake, even if it's often, I cope much better because I know I can recover eventually. :hugs:


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## Shadowy Lady

Noelle - Thank you :) I guess we'll start with Ferber as it is more gentle and hopefully that will work. She doesn't usually wake up before midnight so I don't know if I should do a dreamfeed before or not.

Bumpbear - exact same for us. Used Ferber and only took 3 nights. Best parenting decision I've made so far. Glad you've had success too :)

Sofia's naps have gotten better thank Goodness. She now takes a 2 hour nap at around 9 pm, another 1.5-2 hour at around 1 pm and then bedtime routine at 6:30 pm. Hoping consistent good napping will help with sleep time. Still dreading the Woombie and night feeding elimination the coming weekend :/


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## angelady

socitycourty said:


> I have a reflux baby who's reflux got significantly better after she began eating solids, sitting unaided and we night weaned (6.5 months or so). She often sleeps through now and when she does wake, even if it's often, I cope much better because I know I can recover eventually. :hugs:

...sounds like a very similar baby to mine :) can i ask when you started on solids and how/when/what did you introduce and did you mix it with formula, breast milk? it would be good for me to have advice about a baby that is similar to my own...thank you!


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## bananaz

*bumpbear* - I'm so glad sleep training worked so well and so quickly for you. It sounds like it was the right tool for your situation!

*MiniKiwi* - Sorry about the long awake stretch, but the fact that she resettled herself is a really great sign! I'm guessing once the developmental stuff calms down she'll be able to resettle herself from those brief periods of wakefulness without making noise and waking you up too.


Last night wasn't great, but she's sick so I guess that's to be expected. She went to sleep at 5:45 and of course the one time I actually tried to put her down for the night early she decided it was a nap and woke a half hour later! :dohh: Anyway, I managed to get her back down and then she woke again at 11 because of her coughing. She was distressed so I decided to just nurse her and thankfully she went back to sleep until 4, which was her normal feeding time so I nursed her again. Unfortunately she was so congested and uncomfortable that she just couldn't resettle herself afterward, and after an hour of trying to soothe her I finally just turned on the light and cleared her nose, gave her some ibuprofen, changed her diaper, etc. After that I was able to nurse her back to sleep and she stayed down until 7:45.

So really it could've been a lot worse, but she's barely slept at all today because of her coughing so we'll see how tonight goes.


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## lysh

bumpbear- Congrats! I am glad to hear sleep training worked for you! We did a modified Ferber approach when LO was 4 months old to get her sleeping in her crib (she bedshared with me ) and then to space feedings out a little bit (was waking up every hour to hour and a half). I was going back to work and so we had to make some changes so I could function. I still went in every 2 hours to start with, but that was still better than every hour. I felt the same way you did....there is nothing like hearing your little one cry. She is still not the best sleeper in the world, but there were improvements and she ended up a happier baby.

angelady- I completely can relate to what you are going through. My LO was colicky/fussy for the first 4 months of her life. Since you are at the 3 1/2 mark, hopefully you will start to see some of the fussiness decrease a bit. By 4 1/2 months I felt like my LO was a completely different baby! The sleeping and naps are still an issue, but her overall mood has improved from those early months. My LO also has silent reflux which we had to control with medication. Now that she is 6 months and on solids (our pedi had us start at 4 months), we will talk to our pedi about the next step, but things will get better!!!

Shadowylady- That is great your LO is getting into a good napping schedule! That has always been impossible with mine, she is just too inconsistent (no matter how consistent we try to be!). 

bananaz- poor baby, I hope she feels better soon!

I just put LO down about an hour ago. She woke up fussing about 15 minutes ago, so I nursed her down again. She was very off today- extra fussy, gassy, and her nose is running a bit again. I already told DH that I am not optimistic about tonight and that I plan on responding to her whenever she wakes up this evening due to the fact that she might be coming down with something. On a normal night we let her fuss for a bit to see if she will self-settle, but poor girl is not herself!

However, last night she only woke up once again! She did get up again at 4:40 for the day, but hey- I guess I cannot have it all right away! lol She has never had two nights in a row of only waking up once, so I am hopeful!


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## MiniKiwi

That's great, Lysh! I hope it continues for you and I wasn't feeling very optimistic last night after three wake ups in the first hour but after that she only woke once last night! There's a little bit of hope for you yet :p


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## lysh

MiniKiwi- You are right, there is still hope! It is now 9 and she only had that one wake up so far. She cried out once, but then resettled right away. I am about to pack it in myself right now and get a good nap in before she wants to eat! 

Wishing you all a sleepful (yep, made-up word, but opposite of sleepless) night!


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## Noelle610

angelady said:


> socitycourty said:
> 
> 
> I have a reflux baby who's reflux got significantly better after she began eating solids, sitting unaided and we night weaned (6.5 months or so). She often sleeps through now and when she does wake, even if it's often, I cope much better because I know I can recover eventually. :hugs:
> 
> ...sounds like a very similar baby to mine :) can i ask when you started on solids and how/when/what did you introduce and did you mix it with formula, breast milk? it would be good for me to have advice about a baby that is similar to my own...thank you!Click to expand...

We started around 5 months :) So not super early, but a little earlier than normal. We tried rice cereal mixed with breast milk and she didn't really like it. Also, it constipated her. We had the most success with pears! The fruits and veg are more nutritional for them anyway, so I was happy with that.


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## Noelle610

Bananaz, I'm so sorry Elsie is sick. We've dealt with that a lot this winter unfortunately. It's so tough too, because they can't talk to tell you exactly what is wrong. I don't like to overdo it on the meds, but I also want her to feel better!

Lysh, sounds like you're having some good nights lately. That's wonderful. 

Our night was okay.... Charlotte's still doing the sitting up in bed thing and not being able to get back down, so I had to come lay her down a few times. I went to dinner with friends and went to bed late (for me, 10pm haha!). Charlotte had a third nap until 4:45pm, so DH put her to bed around 7:30pm hoping she'd sleep in a little. It's worked in the past, but unfortunately not today when I could have used it. She was up at 6am!


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## MiniKiwi

Noelle610 said:


> Our night was okay.... Charlotte's still doing the sitting up in bed thing and not being able to get back down

That sounds so cute hehe! Glad you had another decent night :)


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## bananaz

*lysh* - I hope you're able to get the early wakeup sorted, getting up before 5 is really criminal in my book lol. What time is her first nap of the day? Maybe you can push that back a bit?

*Noelle* - Ugh, I'm sorry to hear the sitting thing has become such a problem for Charlotte! I'm sure she'll get it figured out soon, and it will be good for a laugh once she's older, right?


Elsie is still really sick so last night was pretty bad, at least compared to how well things were going before. Every night for the past month or so I've been able to put her down awake and she'd go to sleep on her own within 10 minutes but this time she got hysterical and I ended up going back in and nursing her all the way to sleep. Then she woke up every two hours all night :wacko: 

She managed to resettle herself a couple of times but I did end up feeding her a couple times too, mainly because I'm also really sick and there's no way I was going to stand there shush-patting her for ages while she screamed. 

Ladies whose LO's sleep habits have been disrupted by illness - did they go back to their old patterns pretty quickly afterward? I'm freaking out that all our months of progress are going down the drain :( It took so long to get to the point where I could just put her in her crib and let her fall asleep on her own at night, and we were also down to only one feeding which was really nice. I know she's sick so I want to comfort her but I really don't want to create bad habits that I'm going to have to spend the next few months undoing.


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## MiniKiwi

Bananaz - Mia practically didn't sleep for an entire week when she was in hospital. When she did go to sleep, she'd get woken by doctors/nurses for meds etc. I thought it'd screw her sleep up so bad but we got out and she was so fine. After one day, she was back in a normal time and sleeping better then ever. That's when she started napping for more than 30 mins at a time and self settling :D there is some hope for you! Really hope you and Elsie are feeling better soon though, that cannot be fun for you :hugs:


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## Noelle610

Charlotte's not super adaptable, so she may not be the best example. Her ear infection did disrupt her sleep for a few weeks, but it wasn't terrible. We went away for the holidays and it seemed to "reset" her and she went back to sleeping normally at that time.


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## MiniKiwi

We just had a really good night here. Mia went to sleep at 6:30 as she couldn't stay awake any longer. Woke at 7:30 and resettled herself! Then woke at 11pm for a feed and change, woke at 3:45 for a feed and went back to sleep by 4:15! Sooooo happy we didn't have a middle of the night party :happydance:


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## Shadowy Lady

Lysh - glad you had another good night. Ughhh but I know about waking up before 5 am...been there and it's brutal!

Bananaz - living in Canada and our cold winters, Sofia has been sick 3 times already and she's only 4 months. But each time she recovered sleepwise as soon as she was better. Hoping same is true for Elsie :)

Last night was similar to the night before for us. Bed at 7pm, up for a feed at 12 and back to sleep, then up again for another feed at 4:15....though this time she didn't go back to sleep till 5:30 am!! then she slept and was up for the day at 8:30 am

I was able to sleep better myself last night but my cold is still persistent. I do hope Sofia doesn't catch it as I really need a break from either me or her being sick. It's been like this since November :/


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## Boo44

Bananaz when jack had his ear infection he had a few awful nights, that was the start of his early wakings at 5 each day, then at its worst he had 2 nights where he was awake every hour. Am happy to say that after his antibiotics kicked in it only took like 2 nights to improve xxxxx


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## jessicatunnel

Bananaz, Lilly was sick the whole two weeks we were in Texas, and her sleep was horrible. Waking every hour. We got home and she got better and started sleeping through the night. Haha.


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## jessicatunnel

Double post.


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## mrsbeano

It took Quinn quite a while to get back to acceptable levels of sleep but being ill took him/us back to regular night feedings unfortunately. 

That being said, he kind of sttn last night for the first time in about a month I think :happydance: Fingers crossed. I'm now back at work and sttn would be awesome! I also say kind of because there was a DF involved x


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## Aimee1003

Bananaz - all of our sleep problems seem to start around the same time that Coleton got RSV. he would wake himself coughing about 6-7 times a night. He was 21 weeks old at that point. His sleep has never recovered but it could also be that he hit the 4 month sleep regression late. I bet Elsie will go back to sleeping better when she is not sick.

Lysh - I am so excited it's your little 1 is sleeping better. Even getting up that early seems better if they don't wake up at night.

Shadowy- I think it is awesome that you have a baby that will sleep late. 830 sounds like heaven to me. Mine has internal alarm clock goes off between 6 and 630.

So our nights are hit and miss. The night before last he only woke up twice. But last night he woke up 5 times. 2 were within an hour of when he went to bed the other 3 were every 2 hours. That kind of night really exhausts me. some ladies at work tried to give me advice. They said I only use to let my baby sleep 30 minute naps so they would sleep better at night. They said they use to wake them up after 30 minutes. I feel so bad for their babies. They must have been exhausted. Of course their babies were like 10 years ago. I tried to tell them that they don't advise limiting naps anymore. They looked at me like I was crazy. I guess with the way my baby is sleeping I really am not one to dole out sleeping advice but still...


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## Aimee1003

Just ignore any of my typos I'm using this voice input and sometimes it messes up.


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## Noelle610

Aimee, I hate being given sleep advice by others. A friend of mine is a mom to a toddler and she said never to listen to advice given by anyone with children older that 4.... She says they've forgotten the bad parts LOL!


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## bumpbear

Thank you for the support guys! LO slept through 12 hours again with no protest at bed time! DH has been a star in doing the dirty work sleep training wise for the last 4 nights but tonight is going to be the first night I attempt putting her down to sleep myself so I am anticipating some kind if rebellion from her! Yuck, I don't want to do it, but I guess I have to be able to put her down for the night sooner or later. Hopefully if she does protest it will be short and not involve too much crying. She is still very used to me cuddling her to sleep so she is not likely to be impressed. 

I hope you all have good nights tonight!


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## bumpbear

Aimee1003 said:


> Bananaz - all of our sleep problems seem to start around the same time that Coleton got RSV. he would wake himself coughing about 6-7 times a night. He was 21 weeks old at that point. His sleep has never recovered but it could also be that he hit the 4 month sleep regression late. I bet Elsie will go back to sleeping better when she is not sick.
> 
> Lysh - I am so excited it's your little 1 is sleeping better. Even getting up that early seems better if they don't wake up at night.
> 
> Shadowy- I think it is awesome that you have a baby that will sleep late. 830 sounds like heaven to me. Mine has internal alarm clock goes off between 6 and 630.
> 
> So our nights are hit and miss. The night before last he only woke up twice. But last night he woke up 5 times. 2 were within an hour of when he went to bed the other 3 were every 2 hours. That kind of night really exhausts me. *some ladies at work tried to give me advice. They said I only use to let my baby sleep 30 minute naps so they would sleep better at night. They said they use to wake them up after 30 minutes. I feel so bad for their babies. They must have been exhausted. Of course their babies were like 10 years ago. I tried to tell them that they don't advise limiting naps anymore. They looked at me like I was crazy. I guess with the way my baby is sleeping I really am not one to dole out sleeping advice but still...*

My mum and MIL keep giving me the same advice ie don't let her sleep during the day and she'll sleep all night. They also think i am crazy that I rejected that idea out of hand on the basis of what I'd read in books. To be honest, I never even tried that in 5 months of 1-2 hourly night wakings. I don't know why I trust books over both of our mothers when between them they raised 8 kids who all (reportedly) slept through the night. :shrug:


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## Boo44

My mum is always offering advice and she had 4 of us who supposedly were all great sleepers too lol. Actually she helped me wean his night feed and then encouraged me to drop his dream feed and it did actually work as loath as I was to admit it! However her views on feeding are radically different to mine so I take those with a pinch of salt :)


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## AngelUK

Boo may I ask how you weaned him off his night feeds? We finally managed to make Dominic understand that he isn't getting his second night bottle anymore (I think!) and will tackle the midnight-ish one probably next month. We gave water instead but he did take about a month and a half to no longer wake up for it. So I am kinda dreading cutting him off completely. Any tips? xxx


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## Boo44

Angel it was when he was quite young (11 wks). I'd noticed his night feed gradually creeping later and later, from 2 to 3ish etc. so I waited until it was consistently around 5 am. If I fed him at that point he would hardly take any morning bottle so I knew he didn't need both. I basically just went in his room when he woke, gave him his dummy and shh/patted him. I was amazed he would actually fall back asleep! Sometimes he'd then wake again at 6.30 or something but I'd hold his morning bottle til 7 every day. (Obviously I was lucky as he was never inconsolable hungry and would accept his dummy). Eventually he started not waking until 6.30 or 7. 

The dream feed we waited about 3 weeks after dropping his night feed. Jack did this all himself really as by this point he was hardly rousable at 11pm and was only taking like 2oz so didn't seem worth it! We bit the bullet one night and didn't give him it and he slept normally so we were lucky.

I hope it goes well for you! Fingers crossed x


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## AngelUK

Thank you Boo for your answer :) Lucky you with Jack! Dominic wakes for that bottle and cries and is not to be fobbed off with the dummy lol. For a while he basically didn't go back to sleep if he didn't get that crack of dawn bottle- with the result that I sometimes had to be up for the day at 4am, depending on when he had the previous bottle! Cause thing is, we never know when he wants it, it could be any time from 12 to 3 really. And then he would want the next one 4 hours later. I am really dreading dropping this bottle as I can just imagine him crying on and off for the rest of the night :(. But in reality he doesn't need that bottle, he is off the chart weight wise and he gets 3 solid meals a day as well as bottles. :shrug: I am not sure we will be brave enough to be honest cause sleep is only now starting to be ok-ish and I am so scared that it might go to pot again :(


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## Boo44

Ahh angel that sounds so tough. Maybe Noelle will be able to help more as I think she's read the books on 'proper' night weaning? I really hope for you and your OH that it goes as smoothly as poss!


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## Noelle610

Hi Angel! Ferber's book, "Solving Your Child's Sleep Problems" has a chapter on night weaning. He basically advises either reducing the ounces every few nights (so if LO takes 8 ounces, you would give 6 ounces for a few nights, then 4 ounces for a few nights, etc) until they're basically taking very little. He also says you can replace the formula you take away with water (so if LO takes 8 ounces, you would give 6 ounces of formula and 2 ounces of water, etc.). His theory is that they will shift and take more calories during the day and stop waking for the feed eventually. I must admit I haven't tried this approach, so can't speak to it's effectiveness.

Our pediatrician recommended night weaning Charlotte because she was eating a ton overnight and it was really exacerbating her reflux. He recommend we go cold turkey with her and that's what we did. We soothed in other ways when she woke for feeds. After three nights she didn't miss it and started to take in more during the day. It was a very difficult couple of nights though.


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## libbylou

Bananaz - I hate to say it, but we're still recovering sleep-wise from the cold and minor ear infection LO had over a month ago :(

Last night was ok I guess. She went down ok and slept 4 hours and I actually managed to go to bed early AND fall asleep during that time. Spent a half hour nursing and cuddling her and put her back down. 10 mins later she woke up and screamed for an hour straight :( 
I marched the monitor out to DH in the living room (he never goes to bed early and thinks he's entitled to sleep in every single day he doesn't have to get up for work), dropped it on the coffee table and said "I'm not going in there again, you deal with it" He came into our room 15 mins later (while I listened to her scream her face off in the meantime and heard him changing her diaper because he's always convinced that she must be crying because her diaper needs changing rather than just because she doesn't want to sleep) to tell me that there must be something wrong with her because she won't stop screaming. Um yeah. She's 8.5 months old and she spends a lot of time crying when there's not actually anything wrong with her buddy :dohh:
Anyway...finally got her settled again and she slept another 4 hours, then came into our bed for just over an hour and woke for the day at 7:45

I'm getting really frustrated with her naps. She generally goes down easily, but she used to take two 1-2 hour naps a day. Lately she's been taking three 20-40 min naps a day...it makes it hard for me to get anything done, hard to juggle nap times and she's always tired because she needs the longer sleep. No idea how to get her back to the longer naps :(

minikiwi- glad you guys had a good night, yay Mia!

aimee - the constant wake ups are the worst, especially if they continue after you've gone to sleep. I do NOT do well with only getting an hour or two of sleep at a time. My friend has a 15 year old daughter and tells me that she used to keep her kid up all day so she'd sleep better at night...I'm like um yeah that doesn't work for my kid 

I've briefly considered night weaning to see if it helps her sleep better...but I don't think I want to. Continuing our BF relationship (I intend to extended BF especially because it's a coping tool that helps my high needs little miss wind down) and continuing to BF her on demand is really important to me and I'm worried that trying to cut out night feeds would affect BF for us.


----------



## Aimee1003

Libby- I do not want to night wean either. I actually don't mind one wakeup. If we could get down to that, it would be awesome. I work and only get to see him 2.5 hrs in the evening so I think we both need a night cuddle :) just not one every 2 hrs!!!

I use to need 9 hrs sleep. What a joke!!!


----------



## lysh

bananaz said:


> *lysh* - I hope you're able to get the early wakeup sorted, getting up before 5 is really criminal in my book lol. What time is her first nap of the day? Maybe you can push that back a bit?

Yeah, this morning she was up at 3:45 and refused to go back to sleep. I should have let her fuss for a bit to see if she would resettle, but she was off yesterday so I was feeling guilty. Her first nap depends on when she wakes up. Some mornings she gets up at 4 others at 5 and once in a blue moon at 6. She is so inconsistent with her naps and I am struggling with how to put her on a schedule when her nighttime is still not on a schedule. Sorry your LO is sick....I am keeping my fingers crossed that her sleep goes back to normal. I can only imagine the fear you are feeling right now about that!!!!


Shadowy Lady said:


> Lysh - glad you had another good night. Ughhh but I know about waking up before 5 am...been there and it's brutal!

It is brutal!!! Prior to baby I could easily sleep 10 hours a night. I tended to wake up early, but early for me was 7! I hope you and your LO get a break from being sick as well.....this year is brutal!!!! We have been sick on and off since November as well!!! It seems that LO, DH, and I are constantly taking turns.

libby- Ugh, it is SO hard to listen to a screaming baby. When we are waiting to see if LO goes back to sleep I lay in bed and my whole body gets hot and I start to sweat I am so anxious/upset by it. Hopefully the nap issue is just a phase. My LO never naps well....45 minutes is a good nap. Most of her naps are 30 minutes. I never get anything done, it is frustrating. I constantly feel like I am running uphill to do anything I need to do!!! And lately she is fighting being put down for naps again and I just have not had the energy to battle that again.....even though I should. :nope: Hang in there!

Aimmee- I have gotten interesting advice too lol. My mom decided that I should be keeping my LO up later so she will sleep later....that does not work! I try telling her that, but she does not listen. 5 times is a lot....hope tonight she sleeps better for you.

So last night, even though LO only woke up once I still got 5 hours of interrupted sleep. The timing just sucks. She slept from 7-12, I nursed her from 12-12:30 and then she was up for good at 3:45. :coffee: I did not fall asleep until 9:30, so I basically got 2 1/2 hours and then 3 hours because it took me a few to settle back to sleep. 
By the way, I love my DH- he is supportive and tries to help out in ways that he can (we will even take turns sleeping in one day on the weekend, even though with BFing my sleeping in is short), but does anyone else's DH complain how tired he is and you just want to scream??? lol I get it that he wakes up when the baby cries and wakes up again when I come back in, but he is not sitting up nursing her for 30 minutes. :wacko: He is lucky I love him so much! :haha:

Have a good Monday ladies!


----------



## lysh

Aimee1003 said:


> Libby- I do not want to night wean either. I actually don't mind one wakeup. If we could get down to that, it would be awesome. I work and only get to see him 2.5 hrs in the evening so I think we both need a night cuddle :) just not one every 2 hrs!!!
> 
> I use to need 9 hrs sleep. What a joke!!!

lol.....I use to need about the same! Some nights I use to sleep for 10 hours. I use fear lack of sleep- it is funny how our bodies adjust!!!!! I do not mind getting up to feed LO once either. I just wish she would get on a somewhat consistent pattern though......we are getting closer though!

I only get to see my LO for 2.5 hours at night as well...it is hard! :hugs:


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## bananaz

Thanks for all the responses. It looks like there's a really broad range of sleep recovery times after illness! And I'm really, really scared about her getting an ear infection now, haha.

I just put her down for the night and she cried for about a minute afterward but now it looks like she's trying to settle herself. Fingers crossed that she does.

In other news, I am leaving baby with her grandma and going out for a few hours tonight. Does anyone else feel totally crazy when they "spend" potential sleep time doing frivolous things like, oh, having a social life and being an adult? It makes me feel so irresponsible, lol.

*libby* - I had to giggle at your OH changing her diaper and then coming in to tell you that she's broken. I guess he hasn't been handling a lot of the nighttime stuff?? We've also been dealing with suddenly short naps here and it's driving me crazy. I hope both of our girls get back to 1-2 hour naps again soon. 30 minutes isn't long enough to get anything done!


----------



## socitycourty

i hate to say it but my lo's sleep is really getting me down. i try to be grateful and positive that she's healthy and etc, but it's hard at times when i'm so tired and feeling awful. it also gives me horrid anxiety because i don't feel like it will ever get better. i have some health anxiety/phobias and i'm always worrying, what if i'm really sick and she won't settle, what if, what if. 

she takes cat naps in the day like 30 minutes. then will sleep if i hold her in the evenings. last night i had a headache and sore throat. i fed her and held her till she was asleep, put her in the pack n play, went to lay down, closed my eyes and she was awake crying as soon as i closed them. it feels like torture.

just having a whine :(


----------



## libbylou

lysh - my DH doesn't complain about being tired nearly as much since I started threatening to kick him in the junk whenever he said it :rofl:


bananaz - Glad you're getting a break! I've only been out without LO a few times and I'm an anxious mess most of the time.
DH does try to help but I basically do almost all of her "care" like diapers, baths, naps, meals, BF (obviously), sleep, etc. Most of his help is him entertaining her so I can get stuff done. 
I've been losing my mind a bit more than usual lately so he is helping a bit more with night stuff. He always gets mad at me when I get frustrated and yell or cry after 8.5 months of doing all the hard work...but then he gets mad after like 10 mins of trying to settle her :dohh: He usually changes her diaper, tries to rock her for a bit and if she doesn't settle down within 10-15 mins he thinks something is wrong with her

oh socity :( I'm sorry you're still having such a hard time. Does/can your OH help at all? I know what you mean about feeling really down and anxious about it all. Sometimes I feel like I'm stuck in this black hole of sleepless misery and I'll never get out.


----------



## Irish Eyes

I haven't been on for a couple of days but things here just aren't improving :-( Last night I propped myself up with pillows for LO to sleep upright on me. His ears must be really bad, I feel awful for him! Going to ring the doctors at 8am for an appointment for him. 

In some ways I feel like I'm getting used to getting no sleep but I'm really starting to feel down about it as well. It's starting to affect mine & OHs relationship a bit, I'm resenting the fact that he gets a full nights sleep every night while I don't sleep at all.

Noelle is Charlotte still going through the night? I heard there's an 8 month sleep regression, if that starts after this then I'm doomed!!


----------



## Boo44

Libby I really hope that your LO is getting there she seems to be definitely improving! Just wanted to say that I hear what you mean about preferring to just do everything yourself, but I've found (for me anyway) that that is a bit of a dangerous road to take. As you feel extra pressure that nobody can do it as well as you and you even end up thinking you're the only one who can change a nappy right etc etc and you end up with no break at all and will burn out. 

I've found the odd half day/hour or so/evening off does me the world of good. It is healthy to reconnect with some things outside baby as I've always been surprised that when I've left him, my OH or my mum etc have always managed perfectly well with him! And yes they may have not done things exactly how I would, but he's always fine and it's probably good for him too, to not get so used to things one way that he can't cope out of routine either

Just a few thoughts but I wanted to let you know how much better things are since I personally realised that :) xxxx


----------



## socitycourty

he does help but he's useless at night. he's now pestering me to make her sleep on her own, as if it's that easy. urgh

i know it won't go on forever but right now i feel like a zombie. i have zero interest in anything.


----------



## Noelle610

Boo to bad nights and yay to good nights. That's all I have the energy to say right now... LOL!

Socity, I totally sympathize. When you're in sleep deprivation hell, it feels never ending. 

Irish, Charlotte is on and off with STTN. Lately she has been sitting up or getting on all fours in her crib. I definitely think there's truth to the regression around this time due to developmental milestones. 

Last night was awful!!!! Charlotte was awake from 2:30am to 4:30am and started her day at 5:30am. No idea why! She was very upset. We tried everything from advil to feeding to rocking. Nothing worked. She woke up with no fever though and was quite happy. WTH???? I'm tired.


----------



## Shadowy Lady

Irish - oh you poor thing,....I'm now officially terrified of ear infection :( Hope your LO feels better soon and you get some sleep.

Noelle - damn the new milestones! But you know this too shall pass...Charlotte has already learned to sttn so she'll get there again in no time.

Lysh - glad to hear your LO is sleeping better. Do you usually go to her right away when she wakes up? I find with mine sometimes when I let her fuss for a few minutes she just goes right back to sleep...

Boo - agree with everything you say. My mom and DH also do things differently from me but I'm happy to have their help.

Last night was rough for us. I was really sick and had a high temperature so I went to bed as soon as Sofia did (around 7 pm). I had taken a dose of Advil night time too. She woke up at around midnight and DH fed her. However, she barely ate and so woke up again at 2:30 am. She finished her bottle and then woke again at 5:30 when I fed her.

The problem is that I could not sleep between 2:30 and 5:30 and only slept 30 mins or so after that. I still have a temperature and earache and now wondering if I ever get over this cold. 

DH and I have decided to start night weaning tomorrow night as well as replacing the Woombie with the Magic Sleep Suite. We're gonna do it gradually and hoping that it will work. My pedi has assured me that would be better for LO and us. Wish me luck!


----------



## mrsbeano

We had a meh night here. I tried to DF but only took 3oz then up again at 3.30 for the other 4oz but only up for about 10 minutes so still got plenty of rest. 

I think we need to just suck it up and stop feeding at night. I can't see him stopping on his own.

Socity - have you considered sleep training? I think I've seen before that you don't want to go through the crying. Obviously completely up to you but I think in the long run you would probably hear a lot less crying. Bedtime for us isn't a battle now because he puts himself to sleep. Nice to have some time for you and DH in the evenings and lower your stress. 

Noelle - at least you can tell yourself that this is a phase. I believe that with the 8 month regression that you just have to be consistent and not start any new bad habits. 

I'm pretty sure that I mentioned that my nephew is an amazing sleeper but I witnessed it for myself on Christmas Day. He was very over stimulated so very tired and my sister put him down to sleep at 5.30pm. He slept right through until... 8am when my sister got him up!!! Hes 11 months and averages 4hours in the day and 12/13 at night. Madness. The best bit... my sister complained that she was tired :rofl:


----------



## mrsbeano

Shadowy Lady said:


> Irish - oh you poor thing,....I'm now officially terrified of ear infection :( Hope your LO feels better soon and you get some sleep.
> 
> Noelle - damn the new milestones! But you know this too shall pass...Charlotte has already learned to sttn so she'll get there again in no time.
> 
> Lysh - glad to hear your LO is sleeping better. Do you usually go to her right away when she wakes up? I find with mine sometimes when I let her fuss for a few minutes she just goes right back to sleep...
> 
> Boo - agree with everything you say. My mom and DH also do things differently from me but I'm happy to have their help.
> 
> Last night was rough for us. I was really sick and had a high temperature so I went to bed as soon as Sofia did (around 7 pm). I had taken a dose of Advil night time too. She woke up at around midnight and DH fed her. However, she barely ate and so woke up again at 2:30 am. She finished her bottle and then woke again at 5:30 when I fed her.
> 
> The problem is that I could not sleep between 2:30 and 5:30 and only slept 30 mins or so after that. I still have a temperature and earache and now wondering if I ever get over this cold.
> 
> DH and I have decided to start night weaning tomorrow night as well as replacing the Woombie with the Magic Sleep Suite. We're gonna do it gradually and hoping that it will work. My pedi has assured me that would be better for LO and us. Wish me luck!

Ooh Shadowy, its soo rough when you're sick and caring for LO. Good that DH tried to help. How are you going to wean? x


----------



## Noelle610

mrsbeano said:


> Noelle - at least you can tell yourself that this is a phase. I believe that with the 8 month regression that you just have to be consistent and not start any new bad habits.
> 
> I'm pretty sure that I mentioned that my nephew is an amazing sleeper but I witnessed it for myself on Christmas Day. He was very over stimulated so very tired and my sister put him down to sleep at 5.30pm. He slept right through until... 8am when my sister got him up!!! Hes 11 months and averages 4hours in the day and 12/13 at night. Madness. The best bit... my sister complained that she was tired :rofl:

Thanks, I agree. I have read that the 8 month regression is a true regression unlike the 4 month one, when a baby's sleep permanently changes. It helps to think of it that way. My DH did point out I needed to be more consistent in my responses. When I get tired, it's easier just to try and soothe Charlotte quickly rather than wait ten or fifteen minutes to see if she goes back to sleep on her own. 

UGH where do these babies come from? Are they for real?


----------



## bananaz

mrsbeano said:


> I'm pretty sure that I mentioned that my nephew is an amazing sleeper but I witnessed it for myself on Christmas Day. He was very over stimulated so very tired and my sister put him down to sleep at 5.30pm. He slept right through until... 8am when my sister got him up!!! Hes 11 months and averages 4hours in the day and 12/13 at night. Madness. The best bit... my sister complained that she was tired :rofl:

Why is that when I read stuff like this my kneejerk response is always to get angry and hope that their next child sleeps horribly? I think I'm just a very bitter person,haha.


*Shadowy* - Sorry to hear you're sick too! I hope you feel better soon :hugs:

*Noelle* - Ugh, that's so frustrating! I'm glad she was in a good mood when she woke for the day though, at least that makes it easier to handle her when you're exhausted.

*socity* - I'm sorry you're having such a tough time. Hearing your LO start to cry the moment you close your eyes is one of the worst feelings :(


Last night wasn't too bad for us. I got home at 11 and my mom said Elsie had woken once and seemed to be having a hard time sleeping because she was so congested (despite my clearing her nose out and turning on the humidifier full blast). The rest of the night her cough woke both of us up pretty frequently but she managed to put herself back to sleep each time until her feeding at 3am. Unfortunately she decided to get up for the day at 5:30am, but I can't really blame her since her poor face was just covered in snot at that point. I wouldn't have wanted to sleep like that either :nope:

I think my cold is finally starting to ease up so hopefully hers will too. I'm just praying she doesn't end up with an ear infection.


----------



## Noelle610

bananaz said:


> mrsbeano said:
> 
> 
> I'm pretty sure that I mentioned that my nephew is an amazing sleeper but I witnessed it for myself on Christmas Day. He was very over stimulated so very tired and my sister put him down to sleep at 5.30pm. He slept right through until... 8am when my sister got him up!!! Hes 11 months and averages 4hours in the day and 12/13 at night. Madness. The best bit... my sister complained that she was tired :rofl:
> 
> Why is that when I read stuff like this my kneejerk response is always to get angry and hope that their next child sleeps horribly? I think I'm just a very bitter person,haha.Click to expand...

Haha me too! It's awful, I know. The worst are the moms who think their kid sleeps well because of something they did "right". Sorry, no. I've read more sleep books and kept more logs than any of you!

The other little baby at Charlotte's daycare was STTN since 3 months old (they're the same age) and her mom told me today she can't remember the last time she slept through. She had a pretty bad regression around 6 months. Our daycare provider remarked that the girls had switched sleeping patterns since Charlotte was sleeping better (not that last night was evidence of that!), and I admit to feeling a bit smug. That said, this mom is really, really nice, so I did feel a little bad about feeling smug.


Hope you and Elsie feel better soon! I almost wish Charlotte was sick so I could explain her poor sleeping last night!


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## Irish Eyes

Oh, not only do I hope the smug mums have a bad sleeper next time, but I secretly hope they have bad sleeping twins. I get it a lot from MIL who points out that hers STTN and if I'd done the 4 hour routine, weaning at 4 months then I wouldn't be having these problems! Oh and it was most likely caused by over use of the sling and holding him too much.

Apparantly LOs ear infection has cleared and he's healthy. I know it sounds awful but that makes it worse as there's nothing that can help him! He still won't even be laid down in his crib now at all. Not sure how it affects things with you guys but my relationship is being hit by it now. My hubby drives 4 hours everyday so it's not safe for him to be tired, however as I watch him sleeping peacefully while I haven't slept at all I really start resenting him. I have arguements with him in my head and then I'm annoyed with him in the morning for an arguement he never even had!


----------



## Irish Eyes

socitycourty said:


> he does help but he's useless at night. he's now pestering me to make her sleep on her own, as if it's that easy. urgh
> 
> i know it won't go on forever but right now i feel like a zombie. i have zero interest in anything.

I 100% understand about the zero interest. I feel like I'm completely wasting my maternity leave that I was so excited for. I'm sorry you're having such a rough time, just know that you're not alone! If it helps, after I took LO to the doctors I got in a pair of PJs, ate too much and shut all the curtains! I'm a misery!

Shadowy & bananaz I really hope you both start feeling better soon. It's awful when you feel rough!

mrsbeano, we have the same issue with night feeds. He doesn't take much milk during the day but then last night had 15oz over 3 feeds!! Not sure what to do about that or just wait for it to settle more?

Libby I'm the same with wanting to do everything myself. But Boo's right in saying that we need to share some of the burden. I can't bring myself to do it yet :dohh:


----------



## anti

Irish eyes I'm right there with you!! I sometimes resent my OH for getting a full night sleep every night, but he drives up to 6 hours a dy and goes out to work every day to look after us so I really shouldn't complain.


----------



## Irish Eyes

anti said:


> Irish eyes I'm right there with you!! I sometimes resent my OH for getting a full night sleep every night, but he drives up to 6 hours a dy and goes out to work every day to look after us so I really shouldn't complain.

So glad I'm not the only one!


----------



## AngelUK

Nope not at all. I feel the same. But I am going even further, when certain friends had a baby I hoped theirs would be a bad sleeper too cause I have encountered a confidence in them that borders on the smug. I know we all had that confidence before our bad sleepers were born but well, I don't want to be the one who whined about her bad sleeper and have a _new_ mum thinking they are doing something better than I did. Cause they don't, they might just have been lucky.


----------



## Boo44

AngelUK said:


> Nope not at all. I feel the same. But I am going even further, when certain friends had a baby I hoped theirs would be a bad sleeper too cause I have encountered a confidence in them that borders on the smug. I know we all had that confidence before our bad sleepers were born but well, I don't want to be the one who whined about her bad sleeper and have a _new_ mum thinking they are doing something better than I did. Cause they don't, they might just have been lucky.

Totally agree! It prob works both ways - I have one friend at baby group who cannot hide the look of joy on her face whenever Jack has a bad time with sleeping, like he did during the 4 month regression and just over Christmas when he was ill. I think it's because in general her LO sleeps worse than Jack. But if I ever say he had a bad night she alllllways says 'oh well **** slept through'. Not sure if I can blame her I think it's fairly natural! But I definitely prefer the mummies at our group who are so laid back they genuinely don't seem to care how their babies are sleeping and are always just happy or sympathetic for you, lol! (Edit - I don't for one second think I fall into this group haha)


----------



## mrsbeano

To the girls who want their husbands to do more, it is awesome when you're back at work. We both leave the house at the same time and DH gets home earlier because I do the nursery run so now we take nights in turn and he has to cook tea. *evil laugh* I am strangely feeling more rested because I get to sleep with the ear plugs every other night and get my lie in on a Sunday.

I also have to try very hard not to hit my sister when she either says how sorry she feels for me or how tired she is. She does at least admit that she's lucky, she doesn't try and credit herself.


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## Noelle610

My daycare provider just texted me to tell me Charlotte only took a 20 minute morning nap... But she's "very happy". That is usually her longest nap. She must be SO overtired from last night.

I don't want my kid to be HAPPY damn it, I want her to SLEEP! LOL. Now I'm terrified she's going to sleep horribly tonight. Here's hoping she crashes this afternoon and takes a 3 hour siesta.


----------



## Shadowy Lady

Mrsbeano - thanks :) we'll likely gonna use Ferber. It seems to me the most gentle way of night weaning. My pedi herself used in on her daughter. It's all about being consistent and slowly reducing the amount of milk as well as increasing the time in between feeds. We had started it before but then she got sick so we had to stop :(

Bananaz - sorry to hear Elsie's still sick. But how was your night out? Hope that part was great at least :)

Noelle - I know what you mean about being smug. I have this good friend with a 2 year old that always talks about hoe her daughter sttn since 5 week old. Not only that, her mom who's friends with my mom always says the same to my mom in praise of her grandmother. She's a nice girl but I find it annoying for her to keep saying this to me knowing I struggle with sleep. She's currently 7 months pregnant and I keep secretly wishing her second one is not a good sleeper. I know it's mean but I can't help it :(

Sofia has napped amazing today. I'm hoping this consistent napping pays off though it hasn't yet. My pedi was saying if her naps are good and she doesn't really eat at night, night weaning is my only option. I'm guessing I just have to bite the bullet and do it :/


----------



## Irish Eyes

Shadowy, let me know how the night weaning goes. We'll need to do that soon. He's having 15oz at night!


----------



## megangrohl

OMG I havent posted in a while but wanted to add I HAATTTTTTTTE it when ppl who have no kids, no babies etc bitch that they are tired. Don't even get me STARTED!!!!!! You have no fecking idea what tired is!!!!!!!!! One of my friends bitched cuz he only got to sleep 8 hours instead of 12. I would KILL for that!


----------



## Noelle610

megangrohl said:


> OMG I havent posted in a while but wanted to add I HAATTTTTTTTE it when ppl who have no kids, no babies etc bitch that they are tired. Don't even get me STARTED!!!!!! You have no fecking idea what tired is!!!!!!!!! One of my friends bitched cuz he only got to sleep 8 hours instead of 12. I would KILL for that!

Drives me nuts! A girl at my work told me that surely sleep deprivation with a baby isn't that bad and I must just need more sleep than the average person :wacko:


----------



## Boo44

Noelle610 said:


> My daycare provider just texted me to tell me Charlotte only took a 20 minute morning nap... But she's "very happy". That is usually her longest nap. She must be SO overtired from last night.
> 
> I don't want my kid to be HAPPY damn it, I want her to SLEEP! LOL. Now I'm terrified she's going to sleep horribly tonight. Here's hoping she crashes this afternoon and takes a 3 hour siesta.

Hope she sleeps this afternoon!!

Not sure what's up with Jack's naps, today he had grand total of 20 mins this morning, 20 mins in the car at lunch time - I was sooo mad I tried to lie him in his cot from the car seat but of course he woke... So ended up going for a walk with him and managed to sneak in another 30 mins. It just doesn't seem enough for a baby to me! He fights any pm naps now, so this evening has been awake 4 hrs prior to bed which seems a lot too. Sigh I'm not sure where his longer naps went!


----------



## megangrohl

Noelle610 said:


> megangrohl said:
> 
> 
> OMG I havent posted in a while but wanted to add I HAATTTTTTTTE it when ppl who have no kids, no babies etc bitch that they are tired. Don't even get me STARTED!!!!!! You have no fecking idea what tired is!!!!!!!!! One of my friends bitched cuz he only got to sleep 8 hours instead of 12. I would KILL for that!
> 
> Drives me nuts! A girl at my work told me that surely sleep deprivation with a baby isn't that bad and I must just need more sleep than the average person :wacko:Click to expand...

OMG are you effing serious?? How old was this girl? I would have slapped her or given her a good talking to. Some people just don't get it! I'd be happy if I got 6 or 7 hrs straight even not broken up bits here and there. He sleep has gotten better over the months, but she still does go thru tough times with teething and growth spurts. I am pretty sure she is going thru one right now because she doesn't usually wake for milk in the middle of the night and she woke twice the last 2 nights for it screaming so I knew she was hungry. She took 6 oz each time. Hope that it doesn't last too long


----------



## Noelle610

Boo44 said:


> Noelle610 said:
> 
> 
> My daycare provider just texted me to tell me Charlotte only took a 20 minute morning nap... But she's "very happy". That is usually her longest nap. She must be SO overtired from last night.
> 
> I don't want my kid to be HAPPY damn it, I want her to SLEEP! LOL. Now I'm terrified she's going to sleep horribly tonight. Here's hoping she crashes this afternoon and takes a 3 hour siesta.
> 
> Hope she sleeps this afternoon!!
> 
> Not sure what's up with Jack's naps, today he had grand total of 20 mins this morning, 20 mins in the car at lunch time - I was sooo mad I tried to lie him in his cot from the car seat but of course he woke... So ended up going for a walk with him and managed to sneak in another 30 mins. It just doesn't seem enough for a baby to me! He fights any pm naps now, so this evening has been awake 4 hrs prior to bed which seems a lot too. Sigh I'm not sure where his longer naps went!Click to expand...

So frustrating! Charlotte always fights a later afternoon nap, too, but her mid-day nap isn't really long enough to allow for that. She is usually up for four hours before bed and it seems like a long time to me as well!


----------



## Noelle610

megangrohl said:


> Noelle610 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> megangrohl said:
> 
> 
> OMG I havent posted in a while but wanted to add I HAATTTTTTTTE it when ppl who have no kids, no babies etc bitch that they are tired. Don't even get me STARTED!!!!!! You have no fecking idea what tired is!!!!!!!!! One of my friends bitched cuz he only got to sleep 8 hours instead of 12. I would KILL for that!
> 
> Drives me nuts! A girl at my work told me that surely sleep deprivation with a baby isn't that bad and I must just need more sleep than the average person :wacko:Click to expand...
> 
> OMG are you effing serious?? How old was this girl? I would have slapped her or given her a good talking to. Some people just don't get it! I'd be happy if I got 6 or 7 hrs straight even not broken up bits here and there. He sleep has gotten better over the months, but she still does go thru tough times with teething and growth spurts. I am pretty sure she is going thru one right now because she doesn't usually wake for milk in the middle of the night and she woke twice the last 2 nights for it screaming so I knew she was hungry. She took 6 oz each time. Hope that it doesn't last too longClick to expand...

She's 30, can you believe it? No kids though. She wants them, however... She's in for a treat!

Sleep is much better now for us than it used to be. We do have terrible nights, but I find them so much easier when you know it won't last. I think my perspective has changed, too, since I've gotten some help for my PND. I don't feel like everything with sleep is FOREVER.


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## bumpbear

Noelle610 said:


> megangrohl said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Noelle610 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> megangrohl said:
> 
> 
> OMG I havent posted in a while but wanted to add I HAATTTTTTTTE it when ppl who have no kids, no babies etc bitch that they are tired. Don't even get me STARTED!!!!!! You have no fecking idea what tired is!!!!!!!!! One of my friends bitched cuz he only got to sleep 8 hours instead of 12. I would KILL for that!
> 
> Drives me nuts! A girl at my work told me that surely sleep deprivation with a baby isn't that bad and I must just need more sleep than the average person :wacko:Click to expand...
> 
> OMG are you effing serious?? How old was this girl? I would have slapped her or given her a good talking to. Some people just don't get it! I'd be happy if I got 6 or 7 hrs straight even not broken up bits here and there. He sleep has gotten better over the months, but she still does go thru tough times with teething and growth spurts. I am pretty sure she is going thru one right now because she doesn't usually wake for milk in the middle of the night and she woke twice the last 2 nights for it screaming so I knew she was hungry. She took 6 oz each time. Hope that it doesn't last too longClick to expand...
> 
> She's 30, can you believe it? No kids though. She wants them, however... She's in for a treat!
> 
> Sleep is much better now for us than it used to be. We do have terrible nights, but I find them so much easier when you know it won't last. I think my perspective has changed, too, since I've gotten some help for my PND. I don't feel like everything with sleep is FOREVER.Click to expand...

I had prepared myself for being tired on the basis of what other parents had told me but I had NO IDEA how bad sleep deprivation feels til my daughter continued waking every 90 minutes through the night for a 5 month stretch. Her newborn antics had been a doddle in comparison and it wasnt until she hit 4 month sleep regression (and never recovered) that i felt at my wits end. I Learned the true meaning of exhausted that way! I don't hold it against non-parents because really, how are you supposed to know unless you experience it (I empathised but sure as heck didn't completely understand it!)


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## Noelle610

bumpbear said:


> Noelle610 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> megangrohl said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Noelle610 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> megangrohl said:
> 
> 
> OMG I havent posted in a while but wanted to add I HAATTTTTTTTE it when ppl who have no kids, no babies etc bitch that they are tired. Don't even get me STARTED!!!!!! You have no fecking idea what tired is!!!!!!!!! One of my friends bitched cuz he only got to sleep 8 hours instead of 12. I would KILL for that!
> 
> Drives me nuts! A girl at my work told me that surely sleep deprivation with a baby isn't that bad and I must just need more sleep than the average person :wacko:Click to expand...
> 
> OMG are you effing serious?? How old was this girl? I would have slapped her or given her a good talking to. Some people just don't get it! I'd be happy if I got 6 or 7 hrs straight even not broken up bits here and there. He sleep has gotten better over the months, but she still does go thru tough times with teething and growth spurts. I am pretty sure she is going thru one right now because she doesn't usually wake for milk in the middle of the night and she woke twice the last 2 nights for it screaming so I knew she was hungry. She took 6 oz each time. Hope that it doesn't last too longClick to expand...
> 
> She's 30, can you believe it? No kids though. She wants them, however... She's in for a treat!
> 
> Sleep is much better now for us than it used to be. We do have terrible nights, but I find them so much easier when you know it won't last. I think my perspective has changed, too, since I've gotten some help for my PND. I don't feel like everything with sleep is FOREVER.Click to expand...
> 
> I had prepared myself for being tired on the basis of what other parents had told me but I had NO IDEA how bad sleep deprivation feels til my daughter continued waking every 90 minutes through the night for a 5 month stretch. Learned the true meaning of exhausted that way! I don't hold it against non-parents because really, how are you supposed to know unless you experience it (I empathised but sure as heck didn't completely understand it!)Click to expand...

It really does feel awful and is SO HARD to understand until you've been there. I'm pretty sure I was one of those naive soon-to-be-moms who thought waking up through the night to pee was preparing me for caring for a newborn LOL!


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## libbylou

Last night was meh. She did a 4 hour stretch in her crib, followed by a 1.5 hour middle of the night party, followed by a 2 hour stretch in her crib, then a 2 hour stretch in our bed, then a 1 hour stretch in her crib.
I sort of forced DH to get up with her this morning so I got an extra hour in bed alone which was nice. He's only woken up with her 4 times since she was born and was bitchy and reluctant about it every single time because he's "tired" :wacko: 

I think I have such a hard time letting other people help because LO is very attached to me (always has been) and she does not accept other people despite my attempts to socialize her. 
Every time I've left her while she is awake, she screams for hours, and not even just like sort of crying but full on hysterical panic screaming. She's better with DH now, but he still has a hard time dealing with middle of the night soothing because she just screams and screams at him because she wants me. 
I know it won't hurt her to leave her with other people, but knowing she will be that upset and the only thing that will calm her is me makes me sick and anxious. 
Her separation anxiety is pretty bad right now too. She's started to panic cry when other people hold her even if I'm right there and will try to throw herself out of their arms while screaming "mama" and she has this awful scared/terrified look that she does which is heartbreaking.


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## megangrohl

Thats great Noelle. I didn't know you had PND but am glad it's being sorted now. Sleep deprivation must have made that 10 times worse.


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## Noelle610

megangrohl said:


> Thats great Noelle. I didn't know you had PND but am glad it's being sorted now. Sleep deprivation must have made that 10 times worse.

I didn't know I had it either! For awhile I just thought I wasn't suited to be a mom. I'm so happy to sought treatment. I don't know why it took me so long. I wanted to do things naturally, but getting on some medication was the best thing I ever did. I'm actually enjoying being a mom now, even when I'm tired.

Sleep deprivation does play a big part in how I feel. Toward the worst of my PND, I was having really bad insomnia as well and I wasn't sleeping even when Charlotte slept. Now if I can rest when she does, I find I don't feel nearly as bad as I did before.


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## megangrohl

Noelle610 said:


> megangrohl said:
> 
> 
> Thats great Noelle. I didn't know you had PND but am glad it's being sorted now. Sleep deprivation must have made that 10 times worse.
> 
> I didn't know I had it either! For awhile I just thought I wasn't suited to be a mom. I'm so happy to sought treatment. I don't know why it took me so long. I wanted to do things naturally, but getting on some medication was the best thing I ever did. I'm actually enjoying being a mom now, even when I'm tired.
> 
> Sleep deprivation does play a big part in how I feel. Toward the worst of my PND, I was having really bad insomnia as well and I wasn't sleeping even when Charlotte slept. Now if I can rest when she does, I find I don't feel nearly as bad as I did before.Click to expand...

Awww, glad it is all sorted. I felt like that too, like I was just not a good mom. Maybe I had it too and just didn't know, like you? I don't feel like that anymore though. Hmm... I did the same thing. I had terrible insomnia I couldn't sleep and was lucky if I got 2 or 3 hours!


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## Noelle610

megangrohl said:


> Noelle610 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> megangrohl said:
> 
> 
> Thats great Noelle. I didn't know you had PND but am glad it's being sorted now. Sleep deprivation must have made that 10 times worse.
> 
> I didn't know I had it either! For awhile I just thought I wasn't suited to be a mom. I'm so happy to sought treatment. I don't know why it took me so long. I wanted to do things naturally, but getting on some medication was the best thing I ever did. I'm actually enjoying being a mom now, even when I'm tired.
> 
> Sleep deprivation does play a big part in how I feel. Toward the worst of my PND, I was having really bad insomnia as well and I wasn't sleeping even when Charlotte slept. Now if I can rest when she does, I find I don't feel nearly as bad as I did before.Click to expand...
> 
> Awww, glad it is all sorted. I felt like that too, like I was just not a good mom. Maybe I had it too and just didn't know, like you? I don't feel like that anymore though. Hmm... I did the same thing. I had terrible insomnia I couldn't sleep and was lucky if I got 2 or 3 hours!Click to expand...

Maybe you did! I'm really glad you're feeling better. I think it helps that our LOs are getting old and they're like little people now - they smile and laugh and really give back. Having a newborn is so hard, since it's all give and no receive! 

Insomnia is the absolute worst. I felt like I was going to DIE of lack of sleep. It peaked over the Christmas holiday for me and once I got a good night's sleep (which is like 6 hours straight for me now haha), I felt like a new person.


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## megangrohl

I felt like that too lol it was so horrible. I cried all the time but I had a rocky time with DF then, but we got thru it and are engaged now! So I think it was everything all at once, and yes our babies are almost into toddlerhood. Well Lily is only 3.5 months away! So it will only get better with time. At least that is what I keep telling myself. 6 hours is usually what Lily does when she is not teething or ill. It feels great doesn't it


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## MiniKiwi

I was one of those "smug" mums who thought she was doing something right. My LO turning into a crap sleeper was humbling, I now understand that it was nothing I did or am doing. I wouldn't wish a bad sleeper on any mum or baby though, it's awful for everyone involved, bad for bonding, bad for other family relationships but mostly bad for the baby!

When I meet a smug mum, I let them be smug and have confidence in their parenting, good for them!

How many of you get angry at a dumb person for saying something dumb? It's the same principle. They have no experience so they don't know what they're talking about and getting all annoyed over their naivety is only hurting you.


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## AngelUK

You are right of course MiniKiwi. Sigh. I should rise above it, I know. And I will, as soon as I feel more rested. :haha: ;) xxx


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## Irish Eyes

I can't remember which one of you ladies said about your baby being in a moses basket when they learnt to roll so it didn't bother them but thank you! As last night was awful, I thought I might as well do what I can to get him back in the crib before it goes on too long. I put a pillow in the crib to stop him rolling on that side. Did the normal bedtime routine & laid him down. when he cried I comforted him and laid him back down. he went to sleep!! SLEEP!!! He's been ASLEEP for nearly 3 HOURS!!!! 

MiniKiwi i used to have a good sleeper as well. I wish I knew what caused the change but so much was going on. He did STTN for a while, then 1-2 wake ups which was fine for me!


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## lysh

bananaz said:


> In other news, I am leaving baby with her grandma and going out for a few hours tonight. Does anyone else feel totally crazy when they "spend" potential sleep time doing frivolous things like, oh, having a social life and being an adult? It makes me feel so irresponsible, lol.

I rarely go out at night because it is not worth the hassle at the moment, but the few times I attempted too I did feel crazy that I was wasting potential sleep time! lol When sleep deprived, every bit counts!!!! However, it is nice being an adult every now and then with a social life! haha I am forgetting what the feels like. Hope you have a good time!



socitycourty said:


> i hate to say it but my lo's sleep is really getting me down. i try to be grateful and positive that she's healthy and etc, but it's hard at times when i'm so tired and feeling awful. it also gives me horrid anxiety because i don't feel like it will ever get better. i have some health anxiety/phobias and i'm always worrying, what if i'm really sick and she won't settle, what if, what if.
> 
> she takes cat naps in the day like 30 minutes. then will sleep if i hold her in the evenings. last night i had a headache and sore throat. i fed her and held her till she was asleep, put her in the pack n play, went to lay down, closed my eyes and she was awake crying as soon as i closed them. it feels like torture.
> 
> just having a whine :(

Feel free to whine! It is hard!! I have days where I am just done in. This weekend was a bit rough for me and last night I was having a hard time. Sunday morning I honestly woke up with LO at 3:45 sobbing because I was so tired and just wanted desperately to go back to sleep. The worst feeling in the world is when you lay down and finally close your eyes to then hear crying......sometimes it is like a form of torture!!!! I try to remind myself that LO is not doing it to torture me and that she does not know any better, but it is hard when exhausted. Hang in there momma...it has to get better one day! 



libbylou said:


> lysh - my DH doesn't complain about being tired nearly as much since I started threatening to kick him in the junk whenever he said it :rofl:

LOL.....yeah, if I threaten DH with that I would probably be in for an argument! I need the help he gives me, so I try to just ignore it and move on! He will get up with her and take turns with me. He can't BF her during the night, but in the mornings he is 'on duty' he will bring her to me and I nurse her in bed and then he takes her. I do not get to sleep in for long because I either have to get up for work or if it is the weekend she wants to BF at some poing. 



Irish Eyes said:


> I haven't been on for a couple of days but things here just aren't improving :-( Last night I propped myself up with pillows for LO to sleep upright on me. His ears must be really bad, I feel awful for him! Going to ring the doctors at 8am for an appointment for him.
> 
> In some ways I feel like I'm getting used to getting no sleep but I'm really starting to feel down about it as well. It's starting to affect mine & OHs relationship a bit, I'm resenting the fact that he gets a full nights sleep every night while I don't sleep at all.

Awwww....hope your LO feels better soon. I went through a phase like that with DH (I sometimes still get in those moods like this past weekend). Granted I make the choice to BF, but it is still hard to be the one getting up to feed LO. Yes, he stirs and wakes up a bit when she cries and wakes up when I get back to bed, but it is not the same. I think it is normal for couples to go through stuff like this. Does he help in other ways or take LO for a bit so you can sleep in ever?



Noelle610 said:


> Last night was awful!!!! Charlotte was awake from 2:30am to 4:30am and started her day at 5:30am. No idea why! She was very upset. We tried everything from advil to feeding to rocking. Nothing worked. She woke up with no fever though and was quite happy. WTH???? I'm tired.

Oh no! After having such a good streak, this much have felt like hell!! So sorry.....you must have had a long day at work. 



Shadowy Lady said:


> Lysh - glad to hear your LO is sleeping better. Do you usually go to her right away when she wakes up? I find with mine sometimes when I let her fuss for a few minutes she just goes right back to sleep...

No, we do not go in right away. We give her anywhere from 10-15 minutes to settle down. Sometimes she is back and forth...it seems like she is about to settle so we wait longer and then she is crying again. Last night she cried for 10 minutes, went back to sleep, and then woke up 30 minutes later crying again. :nope: At that point I just went in because I was so freaking tired I could not take going through that again to only have her sleep another 30 minutes. 


mrsbeano said:


> LOL....you must have loved hearing that complaint! It is crazy to witness babies who sleep easily/well first hand. I was visiting a friend and her baby (only 2 months older than my LO). All of a sudden she is like, "he is getting sleepy, I will be right back'. She picked him up, put him in his crib and came back into the living room. Sure enough, he freaking fell asleep!!! No fussing, just went right to sleep for a nice nap. Can't say I have any idea what that feels like! Naps have always been a struggle!
> 
> 
> Well, last night was not great. LO was back to wanting to wake up every 2 hours. :coffee: I basically got a total of 5 hours of broken sleep. Then she was wide awake at 4- DH thankfully took her but I still had to BF her until 4:40 and then I had to wake up at 5:30 for work. I am praying for better sleep tonight!!!!! Personally, I need a night to refresh a bit because I am starting to feel beat up!


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## Aimee1003

Bananaz- Hope u had a great time. We have had friends over a few times and my "late night " is 9:30. Lol. One day I will be fun again. I can't wait to do a shot when I finish breastfeeding!!!

Socity Courty- Every one of us has felt like we reached our breaking point. The other night Coleton was up from 10-1 am. Every time I laid him down he woke up. I rock him while "shhhh-ing" but was so frustrated that I guess my shhhing was a little loud. It scared him and made him cry. I felt like such a bad mom!!! Hang in there...

Libby- you need to leave LO with DH and go have a spa day. Don't worry, if you leave them long enough they will figure it out.

Lysh- I have had a few days start at 4 but never 3!!!! Once I was so tired that I laid my head on my desk for just a second and woke up an hour later. Luckily it was lunch time so I just considered that my lunch break.

Noelle- hope tonight is BETTER!

Irish- I can't even imagine having to hold LO all night. You get the mommy award!!!

Does anyone else get nervous at bedtime? It is so stressful not knowing how the night will go. C had a MOTN party last night from 10-12 and a 3 am wakeup. I cried. Sometimes I am so exhausted that I don't know how I will make it. 2 wake ups would have been a good night but with that long one it just made for sleep hell.


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## Aimee1003

Omg. Wonder week book says WW 37 can start as earlybas week 31. That is when our sleep went to hell. Please please please let this be the reason for the horrible sleep (no tooth yet so I am on to other reasons!). Because if so then there is an end in sight!!!!!


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## Sunnie1984

Yawn.... can I join please? 

My DD was sleeping 12 hours through the night from 9 weeks, and only one night waking before that.....


Then the four month sleep regression/wonder week 19 hit and I have no idea what to do. She wakes four times a night at least, one of them for over an hour, and does not want food. 

She's learnt to roll over in the last week, and now does it constantly then gets mad because she can't get back from being on her tummy and can't crawl. She's so desperate to crawl, that even when she gets mad and I turn her back over she just rolls back and starts again! 

She's only four and a half months and so I think we're in for a long time of this until she can crawl, which probably won't be for ages! 

Thankfully I was waiting for this, especially after reading this thread (i have been an avid silent reader). My DH was smug.... hahahaha he was rather less smug this morning after having to get up with her four times. 

She doesn't really need us or want anything but she babbles so loudly that we can hear her through two closed doors! :dohh:

I am hoping it's just wonder week rather than sleep regression, because she seems to be able to do the first 8 hour stretch ok, it's just after that that the problems kick in....

where is the coffee :coffee:


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## libbylou

lysh - at the time I started threatening my DH with bodily harm for complaining about being tired, he didn't help AT ALL. I was on duty with LO 100% of the time. DH would opt to go to bed super late even when he had to get up in the morning for work, then complain because he got woken up for a few mins at a time whenever the baby woke up at night and in the morning he was "soooo tired" :wacko:
Sorry you guys had such a terrible night :( I can't even imagine having to get up in the morning and go function at work after some of these sleepless nights...most days I'm lucky I have the energy to have a shower and get dressed

Noelle - glad to hear the medication is helping you enjoy being a momma more. I've been really struggling to get through my PPD without medication, but I'm realizing that it's not going to happen. I'm tired of being an out of control mess and I'm tired of wishing I could just walk out the front door and not come back. The sleep deprivation makes things a thousand times worse too for sure

Sunnie - sounds more like a wonder week than the sleep regression. When my LO went through sleep regression, she went from sleeping 4-6 hours at a time to sleeping 45-60 MINUTES at a time :cry: For 3 months.
I think it's really common for babies to see some sleep issues when they learn something new especially the physical stuff like crawling, rolling etc, but it doesn't last forever luckily

Irish - I think that was me who mentioned the bassinet and LO rolling. Glad you were able to use the pillows to keep your LO on his back!


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## socitycourty

i've got the out of control mess feeling as well as wanting to run away. i keep putting off getting help, who knows why....


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## Sunnie1984

libbylou said:


> Sunnie - sounds more like a wonder week than the sleep regression. When my LO went through sleep regression, she went from sleeping 4-6 hours at a time to sleeping 45-60 MINUTES at a time :cry: For 3 months.
> I think it's really common for babies to see some sleep issues when they learn something new especially the physical stuff like crawling, rolling etc, but it doesn't last forever luckily

Phew, thank goodness for that! I don't mind her waking when she actually wants feeding, like in a growth spurt, but it is just maddening when she wants nothing and just babbles herself back to sleep after an hour. 


Plus it doesn't help that I can't sleep through it, like my DH can, so even when it's his night, I'm still awake, even though I don't have to get up to her. 

Although, she's gone down for a nap, rolled onto her stomach and fallen asleep there, and been there for 40 minutes now. So hopefully she'll begin to settle sleeping like that if she rolls over, as she can't get back. 

I was fretting because she only took 30 minute naps, now she's taking longer naps but sleeping less at night :cry: Come back 30 minute naps, we miss you! 

Sorry your LO suffered through the sleep regression, that's just horrendous that it took three months to balance out. 

I hope we all start getting better rest soon, sleep deprivation is complete torture!


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## libbylou

socitycourty said:


> i've got the out of control mess feeling as well as wanting to run away. i keep putting off getting help, who knows why....

I know, I put it off for months too. I get it :hugs:
After the last month we've had (which has been aggravated by terrible sleep and Christmas stress), I know I need help. 
Every day I cry, often more than once....I've had more panic attacks than usual...I end up yelling at DH and LO and it makes me feel awful and guilty...I want to walk out the door and never come back all the time...I've even told LO (whilst bawling my eyes out) that I don't want to be her mom anymore :cry: Every day I feel sad and anxious and I've had enough :( 

Sunnie - in the end we have to sleep train at 6 months to sort LO out. Obviously it didn't "fix" her since I'm posting in this thread, but it did teach her how to self settle so she stopped waking up every time she hit a light sleep cycle and now bedtime takes 15-30 happy mins instead of 1-3 hours of crying
My LO realized that she loved tummy sleeping pretty quick, hopefully yours will too!


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## Irish Eyes

Socity & Libby I'm the same as you both. I've been getting more & more angry with OH just because he sleeps yet I find it so hard to ask for help. I just know people are thinking "told you so" I have a lot of control issues & wanting to be the perfect mum/wife so it just feels like I'm failing. I did tell OH that I'm pissed with his family though that during the time he works away they haven't asked once how me & LO are doing. There's been a lot of snow here and not once have they offered any help. 

The pillow didn't last for long. I was trying to night wean as well as he's hardly drinking in the day due to having so much at night. Got him down to one feed last night! He had a MOTN party as well, maybe him & Coleton have some sort of signal that we don't know about?! Finished the night by propping myself up on pillows again while he slept on me, I don't sleep but it's comfortable.

How was everyone elses night? Please tell me at least someone here got some sleep?!!!!


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## AngelUK

First of all libby :hugs:! 
We had an ok night, I guess. We went to bed at 10, Sebastian woke at 11 and cried for 2 minutes before going back to sleep. At 12:30 Dominic woke crying and I thought he wanted his bottle but by the time I had prepared it, he had fallen asleep again. So I left it cause I knew he'd be up again soon. He wanted the bottle at 1:40 instead and was awake babbling for a good 30 mins after that. Then they woke for the day at 5:30. So not a whole lot of sleep but better than it has been.
Thing is... do you ladies feel that the constant worry about sleep and the constant tiredness robs you a little of what should be an amazing time? Ppl keep saying try and relax and enjoy their babyhood, it goes by to quickly. And I know that is so and I want to cry cause it is going by so fast! But although I love my boys with all my heart and consider them the greatest joy of my life and feel so very blessed to have them both, I know I would enjoy mummyhood more if I got to sleep more. I feel bad for admitting this but the constant tiredness is casting a pall or haze over the last 9 months and a bit and I feel cheated. :( Any one else?


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## Irish Eyes

Angel I completely understand. I had a cry yesterday as I feel like I'm wishing his life away just waiting for the time that he sleeps. We saved so hard to mean that I can take a full year off work and I'm not enjoying it like I should.

Other ladies that I know with babies say about how getting out of the house to do lots helps, but when you haven't slept more than an hour at a time in over a month, it makes it hard to have the energy to do anything! I think my LO is losing out as well by having a mummy that's always tired, I feel so sorry for him :-(


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## Noelle610

Hi Girls!

Meghan, I am SO happy to hear things are going well for you! I remember you were doing this on your own for some time. I cannot even imagine. I can't believe our girls are so old now. It feels like we were in 3rd tri just yesterday.

Bananaz, I missed that you were going out... I must have been tired :) I absolutely have a hard time enjoying things when I feel like I could be SLEEPING. DH will often watch Charlotte on Saturday nights, since my friends do a group dinner around 7:30pm. This feels SO LATE to me now and I sometimes find myself thinking about the sleep I'm missing even though it used to be one of my favorite activities.

Socity & Libby, coming from the other side here... Get help for PND!!!! I tried everything natural - yoga, accupuncture, meditation, exercise, even therapy alone. I really needed medication. I was telling my husband this morning that I dind't realize I could feel this "normal" again. It was so hard to take that step, though, so I'm right there with you. It also felt useless to me at the time because I had to wait so long for doctors' appointments (not sure if it's the same for you) and kept cancelling.

Sunnie, whether a wonder week or sleep regression, 4 months is the WORST time for sleep. Get through this and the rest of the wonder weeks and regressions - IMO - are nothing in comparisson.

Irish, when Charlotte was rolling in her sleep it was the worst! That coincided with the 4 month regression for us. I would do pillows under her crib sheet, sleep positioners, etc and everything would work for a few days and she would just learn to roll over whatever crazy thing I had created. It did pass.

Aimee, I think we're right in WW37 too. It's driving me a little nuts, during the day and night. Separation anxiety is definitely setting in. I can't put Charlotte down!

Angel, yes, yes! I do feel I could enjoy motherhood more if the sleep thing wasn't such an issue. Whenever Charlotte and I both have a good night I think, "Wow, THIS is how it feels to to have fun with this mom stuff".

Last night was OK for us. She was very overtired and cried out a lot in her sleep early in the evening. She had a somewhat long waking around 3am-4am, but it wasn't terrible. I couldn't figure out if she was stuffy, having separation anxiety, etc. 

Question - do you ladies ever feel like your efforts to soothe backfire? Last night during her long waking I kept comforting Charlotte every 10 minutes or so, but I actually felt like I was waking her up! She would be fussing/crying on and off for some time, but I'd pick her up to comfort her and she seemed MORE upset by that. I don't want to just let her cry, but at the same time this experience made me understand why people do CIO rather than CC. I almost felt like she wanted to be left alone.


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## socitycourty

i'm guilty of yelling, at my LO, my dh, the dog, even the cats.

i feel cheated too. just that there were 4 babies born in my family in 2012 and i've got the hardest one. she won't sleep on her own, cries in the car, cries in the stroller, even fusses in the ergo now. everyone else is out doing fun things, posting cute pictures, doing normal things and i'm just a mess.

i have always had an anxiety problem but it was mostly dormant during pregnancy and even for her first couple months, then it came back with a vengeance and the lack of sleep and anxiety generated from dealing with her are just making me miserable.my IBS is also flared up so i also have to worry about attacks from that. i'm afraid to go out sometimes

i dread the nighttimes, and even the days sometimes. i watch my 10 month old niece during the week and even though she has her separation anxiety moments she is so much easier and just goes down for a nap and goes down for bed with no fuss. 

i really try to be positive, i love her to bits but this is sooooo much harder than i ever pictured. i can't really talk to anyone because people just say, "she's so cute though", "just let her cry", and the worst..."well, what did you expect?" so i really stuff it down but sometimes it blows up and i have an even worse day then usual.


----------



## Shadowy Lady

4 wake up calls last night...the last one she was up for an hour....my cold is worse too and this morning I have the shivers all over my body :( 

I feel like I will never get over my cold...especially when I get 2-3 hours of sleep per night


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## Noelle610

Socity, I have always suffered from anxiety and when I was pregnant I felt GREAT (medication and therapy free). I think that happens to some women - I've talked to others with similar experiences. It must be hormonal.

I too have friends and families with much easier babies who just don't "get it". It sucks. I love my little girl, but you wonder "why us?" when it comes to things like colic and reflux. I certainly don't feel qualified to handle these issues, so I question why the universe dealt Charlotte and me this hand in life. On the flip side, Aliss tells me the "terrible twos" will be nothing to us while the moms of said "easy babies" will struggle a bit more. 

Hang in there mama!


----------



## Noelle610

Yuck Shadowy Lady, so sorry! I haven't really been "sick sick" yet since I had Charlotte (somehow, it's a miracle). I had a minor cold for three days and that's really it. I'm not sure how I could recover if I did get ill! Although I will admit to fantasizing about having a little bug so that I could stay home from work, nap and make DH do all the work for a few days :)


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## megangrohl

Noelle610 said:


> Question - do you ladies ever feel like your efforts to soothe backfire? Last night during her long waking I kept comforting Charlotte every 10 minutes or so, but I actually felt like I was waking her up! She would be fussing/crying on and off for some time, but I'd pick her up to comfort her and she seemed MORE upset by that. I don't want to just let her cry, but at the same time this experience made me understand why people do CIO rather than CC. I almost felt like she wanted to be left alone.

Lily does this, so I realized she is not fully awake and I just leave her be. If she works herself up worse then I will pick her up to soothe her but if not I leave her be, this is how they learn to self settle.


----------



## bumpbear

Noelle610 said:


> Last night was OK for us. She was very overtired and cried out a lot in her sleep early in the evening. She had a somewhat long waking around 3am-4am, but it wasn't terrible. I couldn't figure out if she was stuffy, having separation anxiety, etc.
> 
> Question - do you ladies ever feel like your efforts to soothe backfire? Last night during her long waking I kept comforting Charlotte every 10 minutes or so, but I actually felt like I was waking her up! She would be fussing/crying on and off for some time, but I'd pick her up to comfort her and she seemed MORE upset by that. I don't want to just let her cry, but at the same time this experience made me understand why people do CIO rather than CC. I almost felt like she wanted to be left alone.

I don't know if this helps, but we had massive success with CC for the past week. It had perfect effect almost straight away: LO learned how to self soothe on day 1, slept an 8 hour stretch on day 2 and from day 3 has slept through 12 hours (we're on day 7 now!). Prior to that she had typically woken every 90 minutes since her 4 month sleep regression needing boob to be soothed back to sleep (she is now almost 10 months old). I thought sleep was a lost cause, but we seem to have fixed things (for now....)

The key thing with the comfort visits for us was to limit it to 2 minutes at a time, do exactly the same thing when you go in there (eg pat them the same way, kiss them the same way and say the same words before leaving). You must leave after 2 minutes and whatever you do, do not pick them up! 

DH did all the dirty work sleep training wise as we thought she would find it more upsetting if it was me walking away from her. On day 1, he went in after 1 min, 3 min, 5 min, 5 min then 10 min. DH left the room after 2 minutes even if she was crying hard- he felt like a complete crap bag doing it, but ultimately it had more effect. She put herself to sleep in 33 minutes for the first time in 5 months with LESS CRYING than when we were trying to implement the no cry sleep solutions! There was also no hysterical crying involved, just angry/confused crying at first because she wanted to be nursed, then frustrated crying as she tried to figure out how to put herself to sleep. On day 2 she went to sleep with only 3 mins crying (no reassurance visit needed) and from day 3 she has gone to sleep without a fuss, saying 'niy niy' (night night) ie she wants to go to sleep!

If you follow that reassurance visit guideline, hopefully (if your LO is anything like my one), your LO will realise that you are there if they need you but that they must put themselves to sleep.

Our daughter did get more worked up during and after each comfort visit, but she needed to go through that to come to the realisation that mummy and daddy are still there, that she is safe and secure, and that she can go to sleep.

She's been a much more energetic and happy baby since she's been sleeping through too, so I am glad we did it in the end (I wish we had done it earlier to be honest!)


----------



## Noelle610

megangrohl said:


> Noelle610 said:
> 
> 
> Question - do you ladies ever feel like your efforts to soothe backfire? Last night during her long waking I kept comforting Charlotte every 10 minutes or so, but I actually felt like I was waking her up! She would be fussing/crying on and off for some time, but I'd pick her up to comfort her and she seemed MORE upset by that. I don't want to just let her cry, but at the same time this experience made me understand why people do CIO rather than CC. I almost felt like she wanted to be left alone.
> 
> Lily does this, so I realized she is not fully awake and I just leave her be. If she works herself up worse then I will pick her up to soothe her but if not I leave her be, this is how they learn to self settle.Click to expand...

Yup, I think you're right. Some kids are just "loud" when settling. My DH is going to get us a video monitor - he thinks it would help me to see that she's really half asleep and not have to respond to every peep. I try not to, but it's hard because I always wonder if something is wrong (teething, illness, stuck in crib, etc)


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## Noelle610

bumpbear said:


> Noelle610 said:
> 
> 
> Last night was OK for us. She was very overtired and cried out a lot in her sleep early in the evening. She had a somewhat long waking around 3am-4am, but it wasn't terrible. I couldn't figure out if she was stuffy, having separation anxiety, etc.
> 
> Question - do you ladies ever feel like your efforts to soothe backfire? Last night during her long waking I kept comforting Charlotte every 10 minutes or so, but I actually felt like I was waking her up! She would be fussing/crying on and off for some time, but I'd pick her up to comfort her and she seemed MORE upset by that. I don't want to just let her cry, but at the same time this experience made me understand why people do CIO rather than CC. I almost felt like she wanted to be left alone.
> 
> I don't know if this helps, but we had massive success with CC for the past week. It had perfect effect almost straight away: LO learned how to self soothe on day 1, slept an 8 hour stretch on day 2 and from day 3 has slept through 12 hours (we're on day 7 now!). Prior to that she had typically woken every 90 minutes since her 4 month sleep regression needing boob to be soothed back to sleep (she is now almost 10 months old). I thought sleep was a lost cause, but we seem to have fixed things (for now....)
> 
> The key thing with the comfort visits for us was to limit it to 2 minutes at a time, do exactly the same thing when you go in there (eg pat them the same way, kiss them the same way and say the same words before leaving). You must leave after 2 minutes and whatever you do, do not pick them up!
> 
> DH did all the dirty work sleep training wise as we thought she would find it more upsetting if it was me walking away from her. On day 1, he went in after 1 min, 3 min, 5 min, 5 min then 10 min. DH left the room after 2 minutes even if she was crying hard- he felt like a complete crap bag doing it, but ultimately it had more effect. She put herself to sleep in 33 minutes for the first time in 5 months with LESS CRYING than when we were trying to implement the no cry sleep solutions! There was also no hysterical crying involved, just angry/confused crying at first because she wanted to be nursed, then frustrated crying as she tried to figure out how to put herself to sleep. On day 2 she went to sleep with only 3 mins crying (no reassurance visit needed) and from day 3 she has gone to sleep without a fuss, saying 'niy niy' (night night) ie she wants to go to sleep!
> 
> If you follow that reassurance visit guideline, hopefully (if your LO is anything like my one), your LO will realise that you are there if they need you but that they must put themselves to sleep.
> 
> Our daughter did get more worked up during and after each comfort visit, but she needed to go through that to come to the realisation that mummy and daddy are still there, that she is safe and secure, and that she can go to sleep.
> 
> She's been a much more energetic and happy baby since she's been sleeping through too, so I am glad we did it in the end (I wish we had done it earlier to be honest!)Click to expand...

Thanks, this is very helpful. I think the issue is that I'm picking her up and rocking to soothe, which I never used to do. I used to only soothe from outside the crib and I think that worked better and somewhere (after multiple illnesses and teething) I got off track. I need to be more consistent in my responses. 

I totally hear you on the less crying thing, too.... My daughter always cries when she falls asleep. Honestly, she could have great naps, great stimulation and fun between them, eat well and be full and content and it seems she still needs to let off steam. I feel like she often cries LESS when I'm not interfering.


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## Aimee1003

Socity courty- I hear ya. Coleton had colic, has reflux, we went through failure to thrive and then 10 weeks of an RSV induced cold /bronchitis and now the worst sleep regression ever. It is like we cannot catch a break.

Bumpbear -We did CC at bedtime and were happy with the results but about 4 weeks ago it quit working. After 3 nights of him crying an hour and a half with no end in sight I am back to nursing him to sleep. I think it is because of wonder week 37 and the 8 month sleep regression so I bet your LO will do much better. I am going to try CC again soon but it drains me emotionally.

Well. Last night was the worst sleep night I have had since having a baby. Coleton went to sleep at 7:30. I laid down at 8:30 and fell asleep at 9. C woke up at 9:20 AND was up until 2:30!!!! At first he just was awake and couldn't fall back asleep but he wasn't fussy like he normally is when that happens. He seemed content to just cuddle. At 11:30 he fell asleep. From 11:30-2:30 it was a vicious cycle of fall asleep, lay him down, he wakes up screaming within 20 minutes. The screams were weird like he had a nightmare or was in pain. I finally got him down in the swing and he slept an hour. Woke up at 3:30. Got down at 4:45 and he woke up at 5:55. I decided then that we were both staying home so I called in to work. He has had maybe 5 hrs sleep and I have had 2. He is even refusing naps today. He will be so exhausted and either not fall asleep or the one that actually stuck he woke within 10 minutes. I have no idea what is going on. He does not have a fever. Anyone? I really cannot survive on 2 hrs sleep! DH is a firefighter so he works 24 hr shifts meaning I am on my own.


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## Noelle610

Aimee, that sounds just terrible! I would have called into work too. Five hours in the middle of the night has to be a record.


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## Shadowy Lady

Aimee - I thought my night was bad until I read about yours :( Hang in there friend. We are all here to support each other. I also got about 2 hours of sleep and am sick with a feverish body :'( I wish i knew the magic answer...my only suggestion would be to somewhat teach him to self-sooth. We used Ferber's self soothing as Bumpbear describes and worked great for us :)

Noelle - thank you :) Trust me you don't wanna be sick when you have a non-sleeping baby. It's twice as rough to operate on minimal sleep with a sick body and congested head :( and to answer your question, I don't pick up Sofia if I'm not intending on feeding her. I just go in and sshhh her and leave. Usually that does the trick.

A bit of better news, I started to put Sofia in her new magic sleepsuite to nap this morning instead of the Woombie. She fussed for longer (like 20 mins) but she did fall asleep and has been napping now for 1.5 hours. I will be putting her in the sleepsuite tonight as well as starting the night weaning process (Ferber style). I'm intending on having at least 3.5 hours between feeds. 

I'll let you ladies now how it goes. Since she already knows how to self-soothes I'm expecting it to be not too bad....or at least hoping so!


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## socitycourty

i have had 3 colds since my LO was born, one of them I had a 102 fever and I was sweaty all over, she just kept crying to be held, I thought i would die from the powerless feeling I had, I couldn't take care of myself for even a minute, it was awful.

I'm more afraid of getting a tummy bug (which I already have a phobia of!) and a baby who won't let me put her down! i worry about it all the time.

I've been up since 5, couldn't get her back down. trying to talk myself out of being terribly grumpy today :(


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## bananaz

Aimee - I'm so sorry. Honestly I would take him to the pediatrician just to get him checked out and make sure he's okay, even if he doesn't have a fever. IMO that goes beyond just having a "bad night." Big hugs to you, do you have any other family or friends you can call to give you a break?

Shadowy Lady - Sorry you had such a rough night too. I hear you on the cold thing, I've had mine for almost a week and it doesn't seem like it's getting any better.

Noelle - YES, my efforts to soothe definitely backfire sometimes! I think most of my LO's crazy long MOTN parties happened when I went in there too soon and interrupted her while she was trying to fall asleep. The video monitor is a good idea, I know it's been an invaluable sleep tool for me.


Last night was surprisingly really good for us, despite the fact that Elsie's cold seems to be getting worse. She went down a little past 7pm and slept until 3am. Unfortunately she ended up being awake for almost an hour at that point because I had to wipe the gunk off her face which makes her hysterical, and then after I finally got her calm and nursed her back down she sneezed and her face got covered in snot again so I had to start the process over :dohh: Anyway, I finally did get her back to sleep and she stayed down until 7am, despite lots of coughing. I'm secretly hoping that these 7-8am wakeups will last beyond her sickness, but I'm guessing that they won't. 

And to those who asked, I had a great time going out the other night :) Of course I felt like total crap the next day but it was worth it.


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## socitycourty

Aimee I would guess teething or just a bad sleep. If he was sick with something it would have probably come on by now, I think. but anytime something is out of the ordinary for my LO i call the advice nurse because I just don't know. it's confusing sometimes!

That sounds awful. just try and get him to nap or even nap with him so you can get a rest :hugs:


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## bumpbear

Aimee1003 said:


> Bumpbear -We did CC at bedtime and were happy with the results but about 4 weeks ago it quit working. After 3 nights of him crying an hour and a half with no end in sight I am back to nursing him to sleep. I think it is because of wonder week 37 and the 8 month sleep regression so I bet your LO will do much better. I am going to try CC again soon but it drains me emotionally.
> 
> Well. Last night was the worst sleep night I have had since having a baby. Coleton went to sleep at 7:30. I laid down at 8:30 and fell asleep at 9. C woke up at 9:20 AND was up until 2:30!!!! At first he just was awake and couldn't fall back asleep but he wasn't fussy like he normally is when that happens. He seemed content to just cuddle. At 11:30 he fell asleep. From 11:30-2:30 it was a vicious cycle of fall asleep, lay him down, he wakes up screaming within 20 minutes. The screams were weird like he had a nightmare or was in pain. I finally got him down in the swing and he slept an hour. Woke up at 3:30. Got down at 4:45 and he woke up at 5:55. I decided then that we were both staying home so I called in to work. He has had maybe 5 hrs sleep and I have had 2. He is even refusing naps today. He will be so exhausted and either not fall asleep or the one that actually stuck he woke within 10 minutes. I have no idea what is going on. He does not have a fever. Anyone? I really cannot survive on 2 hrs sleep! DH is a firefighter so he works 24 hr shifts meaning I am on my own.

Perhaps it's the start of night terrors? I don't know much about it but I think all my baby sleep books (I have bought many!) have chapters on that.

Re CC- can you get DH to do it and go out somewhere? That was my plan- I organised my closet while he got on with things and planned to go out for a walk if it got too much, but luckily it was not too bad and she fell asleep before it got to the point that I couldn't bear it. I did have a bit of a sob later though when I went to bed that night because it was her first night where we hadn't ended up bringing her in to our room and I missed her. My boobs were also full to bursting and I was worried she would be hungry (but she wasn't, she was fine!)


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## jessicatunnel

megangrohl said:


> OMG I havent posted in a while but wanted to add I HAATTTTTTTTE it when ppl who have no kids, no babies etc bitch that they are tired. Don't even get me STARTED!!!!!! You have no fecking idea what tired is!!!!!!!!! One of my friends bitched cuz he only got to sleep 8 hours instead of 12. I would KILL for that!

Megan :D Sorry to see you here, but SO glad you and your DF worked things out! It's better for everyone. :D



Irish Eyes said:


> The pillow didn't last for long. I was trying to night wean as well as he's hardly drinking in the day due to having so much at night. Got him down to one feed last night! He had a MOTN party as well, maybe him & Coleton have some sort of signal that we don't know about?! Finished the night by propping myself up on pillows again while he slept on me, I don't sleep but it's comfortable.
> 
> How was everyone elses night? Please tell me at least someone here got some sleep?!!!!

Yaaaaayyyy!!! Lilly was the same before. She would hardly have ANYTHING to eat in the day because she was eating so much at night. I didn't really have the intent to night wean it just kind of happened. She's having so much in the day time now and is much happier. :D



AngelUK said:


> We had an ok night, I guess. We went to bed at 10, Sebastian woke at 11 and cried for 2 minutes before going back to sleep. At 12:30 Dominic woke crying and I thought he wanted his bottle but by the time I had prepared it, he had fallen asleep again. So I left it cause I knew he'd be up again soon. He wanted the bottle at 1:40 instead and was awake babbling for a good 30 mins after that. Then they woke for the day at 5:30. So not a whole lot of sleep but better than it has been.
> Thing is... do you ladies feel that the constant worry about sleep and the constant tiredness robs you a little of what should be an amazing time? Ppl keep saying try and relax and enjoy their babyhood, it goes by to quickly. And I know that is so and I want to cry cause it is going by so fast! But although I love my boys with all my heart and consider them the greatest joy of my life and feel so very blessed to have them both, I know I would enjoy mummyhood more if I got to sleep more. I feel bad for admitting this but the constant tiredness is casting a pall or haze over the last 9 months and a bit and I feel cheated. :( Any one else?

Seems like your night wasn't too bad, but ahh, such an early wake up! I don't think I could function if I woke up at 5:30. :/



Noelle610 said:


> Last night was OK for us. She was very overtired and cried out a lot in her sleep early in the evening. She had a somewhat long waking around 3am-4am, but it wasn't terrible. I couldn't figure out if she was stuffy, having separation anxiety, etc.
> 
> Question - do you ladies ever feel like your efforts to soothe backfire? Last night during her long waking I kept comforting Charlotte every 10 minutes or so, but I actually felt like I was waking her up! She would be fussing/crying on and off for some time, but I'd pick her up to comfort her and she seemed MORE upset by that. I don't want to just let her cry, but at the same time this experience made me understand why people do CIO rather than CC. I almost felt like she wanted to be left alone.

YES! I'm actually pretty horrible at comforting Lilly anyways, lol, but especially at night! She just cries in my arms. :/ There was one night a few months back where she had woken up in the night and I went in to feed her, she didn't want her bottle so I tried rocking her. Didn't work. Tried bouncing her. Didn't work. Tried singing to her and patting her bum. Didn't work. I was getting so frustrated why nothing was working, she just kept crying, so I just put her back down in her crib. The moment her head touched the mattress she was instantly asleep. I couldn't believe my eyes.



socitycourty said:


> i'm guilty of yelling, at my LO, my dh, the dog, even the cats.
> 
> i feel cheated too. just that there were 4 babies born in my family in 2012 and i've got the hardest one. she won't sleep on her own, cries in the car, cries in the stroller, even fusses in the ergo now. everyone else is out doing fun things, posting cute pictures, doing normal things and i'm just a mess.
> 
> i have always had an anxiety problem but it was mostly dormant during pregnancy and even for her first couple months, then it came back with a vengeance and the lack of sleep and anxiety generated from dealing with her are just making me miserable.my IBS is also flared up so i also have to worry about attacks from that. i'm afraid to go out sometimes
> 
> i dread the nighttimes, and even the days sometimes. i watch my 10 month old niece during the week and even though she has her separation anxiety moments she is so much easier and just goes down for a nap and goes down for bed with no fuss.
> 
> i really try to be positive, i love her to bits but this is sooooo much harder than i ever pictured. i can't really talk to anyone because people just say, "she's so cute though", "just let her cry", and the worst..."well, what did you expect?" so i really stuff it down but sometimes it blows up and i have an even worse day then usual.

Awhh hun. :hugs:
You need a girls day. Can you leave LO with DH one night and go out with a couple of friends and stay the night at a hotel that night? You wouldn't believe what one full night of sleep can do for you. 



Shadowy Lady said:


> 4 wake up calls last night...the last one she was up for an hour....my cold is worse too and this morning I have the shivers all over my body :(
> 
> I feel like I will never get over my cold...especially when I get 2-3 hours of sleep per night

Eeeeek, I hate being sick. :( I always feel like colds go on for aaaages. It's even worse when you have a baby. Hope you get better soon hun.



Aimee1003 said:


> Well. Last night was the worst sleep night I have had since having a baby. Coleton went to sleep at 7:30. I laid down at 8:30 and fell asleep at 9. C woke up at 9:20 AND was up until 2:30!!!! At first he just was awake and couldn't fall back asleep but he wasn't fussy like he normally is when that happens. He seemed content to just cuddle. At 11:30 he fell asleep. From 11:30-2:30 it was a vicious cycle of fall asleep, lay him down, he wakes up screaming within 20 minutes. The screams were weird like he had a nightmare or was in pain. I finally got him down in the swing and he slept an hour. Woke up at 3:30. Got down at 4:45 and he woke up at 5:55. I decided then that we were both staying home so I called in to work. He has had maybe 5 hrs sleep and I have had 2. He is even refusing naps today. He will be so exhausted and either not fall asleep or the one that actually stuck he woke within 10 minutes. I have no idea what is going on. He does not have a fever. Anyone? I really cannot survive on 2 hrs sleep! DH is a firefighter so he works 24 hr shifts meaning I am on my own.

You poor thing, that sounds awful! Good on you for calling in to work. No one should go to work on only two hours of sleep. I don't know how you're handling it! You're my new hero!



bananaz said:


> Last night was surprisingly really good for us, despite the fact that Elsie's cold seems to be getting worse. She went down a little past 7pm and slept until 3am. Unfortunately she ended up being awake for almost an hour at that point because I had to wipe the gunk off her face which makes her hysterical, and then after I finally got her calm and nursed her back down she sneezed and her face got covered in snot again so I had to start the process over :dohh: Anyway, I finally did get her back to sleep and she stayed down until 7am, despite lots of coughing. I'm secretly hoping that these 7-8am wakeups will last beyond her sickness, but I'm guessing that they won't.
> 
> And to those who asked, I had a great time going out the other night :) Of course I felt like total crap the next day but it was worth it.

Awhh, glad you had a good time, you needed it! And glad Elsie had a good night! Lilly hates when I wipe her face too, she goes ballistic!

Poor baby, hope she gets over this cold sooner than later. 

I haven't posted in a few days mainly because there's nothing new really. Lilly is still sttn, but has been waking at about 5-530 every morning for a bottle, then will go back down until 730-8. 
I'm not complaining, I just wish I could send some of this sleep dust to you ladies, I know a lot more of you need it more than I do! 

Lilly has learned how to crawl so every morning when I go to get her I find her crawling around her crib, hehe, cutest thing ever. I can't believe she can crawl though. I just look down at her and she looks so grown up.
She also follows me everywhere now that she knows she can. Hehe.


----------



## socitycourty

I do need a night. I'm thinking of having my mom stay here as she might be a little better at settling her than my DH...he tries but she can sense that he's nervous or frustrated and she doesn't usually settle with him.

I have never wanted to leave her overnight because I feel like she's too fussy and will ruin the babysitting person's sleep as well as just cry her head off, I hate to think about it even though I'm dying for the break


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## Shadowy Lady

ughhhh taking Woombie away is not going well...she woke up 10 mins after I put her down moving her arms about and crying. I'm going in every 5 mins to console her but it's been an hour and no change :'( to make it worse DH is in his martial art class for another 2 hours.

I'm at the breaking point now with like 2 hours of sleep, having a fever and dealing with all the crying....should I just put her back in the Woombie?


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## lysh

libbylou said:


> lysh - at the time I started threatening my DH with bodily harm for complaining about being tired, he didn't help AT ALL. I was on duty with LO 100% of the time. DH would opt to go to bed super late even when he had to get up in the morning for work, then complain because he got woken up for a few mins at a time whenever the baby woke up at night and in the morning he was "soooo tired" :wacko:
> Sorry you guys had such a terrible night :( I can't even imagine having to get up in the morning and go function at work after some of these sleepless nights...most days I'm lucky I have the energy to have a shower and get dressed

Some days are harder than others, I am just glad I have a job that keeps me so busy that I have no time to feel tired. 



Noelle610 said:


> Question - do you ladies ever feel like your efforts to soothe backfire? Last night during her long waking I kept comforting Charlotte every 10 minutes or so, but I actually felt like I was waking her up! She would be fussing/crying on and off for some time, but I'd pick her up to comfort her and she seemed MORE upset by that. I don't want to just let her cry, but at the same time this experience made me understand why people do CIO rather than CC. I almost felt like she wanted to be left alone.

Yes!!! Our pedi said to go in and every 10 minutes so she knows we did not abandon her....however, the minute we go in she starts SCREAMING! I want her to know we are still there, but I feel like it ends up upsetting her more and takes her longer to settle. :shrug: I have no idea what the answer is!!


Shadowy Lady said:


> 4 wake up calls last night...the last one she was up for an hour....my cold is worse too and this morning I have the shivers all over my body :(
> 
> I feel like I will never get over my cold...especially when I get 2-3 hours of sleep per night

:hugs: I am so sorry.....a night like that sucks even more when sick!!!! I hope you have a better night tonight. You asked about the woombie in another post...personally, I would do what you have to do to get sleep right now!!! But that is just my opinion! I say deal with the woombie when you are feeling better and have more energy to deal with the extra wake-ups while she transitions out of it.



Aimee1003 said:


> Well. Last night was the worst sleep night I have had since having a baby. Coleton went to sleep at 7:30. I laid down at 8:30 and fell asleep at 9. C woke up at 9:20 AND was up until 2:30!!!! At first he just was awake and couldn't fall back asleep but he wasn't fussy like he normally is when that happens. He seemed content to just cuddle. At 11:30 he fell asleep. From 11:30-2:30 it was a vicious cycle of fall asleep, lay him down, he wakes up screaming within 20 minutes. The screams were weird like he had a nightmare or was in pain. I finally got him down in the swing and he slept an hour. Woke up at 3:30. Got down at 4:45 and he woke up at 5:55. I decided then that we were both staying home so I called in to work. He has had maybe 5 hrs sleep and I have had 2. He is even refusing naps today. He will be so exhausted and either not fall asleep or the one that actually stuck he woke within 10 minutes. I have no idea what is going on. He does not have a fever. Anyone? I really cannot survive on 2 hrs sleep! DH is a firefighter so he works 24 hr shifts meaning I am on my own.

OMG.....what a crappy night!! I want to cry for you reading that....I am glad you took the day off. I wish I had an answer for you, I just hope your evening goes a little better!:hugs:

Well, last night little girl did really well! She slept from 7:15-midnight. I nursed her for 30 minutes and then she slept until 5:15!!! I of course had a hard time sleeping the second half of the night (I never had a problem before, but lately I am getting insomnia after the first nursing session). But at least she slept well! I am hoping for another good night in which I sleep too!!!!


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## megangrohl

Shadowy Lady said:


> ughhhh taking Woombie away is not going well...she woke up 10 mins after I put her down moving her arms about and crying. I'm going in every 5 mins to console her but it's been an hour and no change :'( to make it worse DH is in his martial art class for another 2 hours.
> 
> I'm at the breaking point now with like 2 hours of sleep, having a fever and dealing with all the crying....should I just put her back in the Woombie?

I remember weaning Lily. Do not stop once you have started. It will take a week or two for LO to adjust but she will get better at it! Persevere is all I can say. Maybe try it when you are feeling better though?


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## aliss

Zzzzz! My Philippe is officially not a good sleeper, HAH. I shouldn't say that, he goes right back to sleep most of the time. But every 2 hours is still tiring. I put Alex in preschool 3x a week so I can catch a nap b/c I can't when he does............. nope, not feeling guilty at all!!! :) He loves it!


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## bananaz

lysh said:


> Well, last night little girl did really well! She slept from 7:15-midnight. I nursed her for 30 minutes and then she slept until 5:15!!! I of course had a hard time sleeping the second half of the night (I never had a problem before, but lately I am getting insomnia after the first nursing session). But at least she slept well! I am hoping for another good night in which I sleep too!!!!

Yay, that's great! I hope you're able to get some rest tonight. I get so mad at myself when my baby is finally sleeping but I'm not!




megangrohl said:


> I remember weaning Lily. Do not stop once you have started. It will take a week or two for LO to adjust but she will get better at it! Persevere is all I can say. Maybe try it when you are feeling better though?

I agree, if you really need the transition to happen now then you just have to push through it. If it's not urgent then you might wait a little while, but chances are it's going to be tough no matter when you do it, unfortunately.


On a side note, I took LO to the pediatrician today because her cough has gotten a lot worse and I was told that if I think her congestion is disturbing her at night then I should go in and squirt saline into her nose _while she's sleeping_! First of all, LO is a tummy sleeper so that would be difficult but second of all there's no freaking way I'd intentionally wake her up like that :wacko: The doctor said she would just snuffle and sputter and then go back to sleep. Um, I don't think so!


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## socitycourty

um yeah, I would NEVER do that when my LO was sleeping. she gets pissed enough when she's awake


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## libbylou

irish - ugh, those MOTN parties are killing us all. DH's family is useless as well. They live 2 mins away and we never see them and they never help. I find it really hard to ask for help (control issues here too haha) and even when I do ask for help I often feel like I've failed because I need help or I end up regretting it because it was more grief than help

angel - yes, I definitely feel cheated. I waited my whole life for my little girl and spent 3.5 years TTC and now that she's here I want to enjoy her and I feel like I can't :(

Noelle - I'm seeing my dr next Tuesday and have some counselling appts set up with a lady who specializes in treating PPD, so I'm hoping I can finally get the help I need and get my feet under me

socity - I could have written your post myself. I am SO SICK of people telling me to "count my blessings" or "welcome to parenthood". I'm actually really lucky in that one of my close friends also suffers from PPD and she is the one who brought me to the PPD support group and basically helped me see that how I'm feeling isn't normal and not everyone feels like this

shadowy - sorry to hear you guys are still having a rough time. Being sick and overtired is the worst because you never get a chance to recover. I agree with Megan, persevere! The first 2-3 days of taking LO out of her swaddle were the worst, but we saw a lot of improvement within 2-3 days 

aimee - what a rough night!! I'm wondering if he's teething? I get upset when LO has a one hour MOTN party, I can't imagine 5 hours!

bananaz - not a bad night considering she's still sick! There's no way I'd squirt anything in LOs nose while she was sleeping, I can't imagine that going over well!!

lysh - glad you guys had a good night!

Last night wasn't great. LO slept for about 3 1/2 hours (very unsettled, waking and crying out every 20-30 mins), then woke up and nursed for 30 mins, then slept for 1.5 hours...then had a 2 hour MOTN party (I'd only had one hour of sleep by the time the MOTN party started). 
By the end of it I was lying in bed grumbling while LO cried and DH got up and started yelling about how I needed to calm down and he'd go in and deal with her since my grumbling was keeping him awake anyway, so we had a giant fight at 2:30am, that was fun. She finally fell asleep and then was up every 1.5-2 hours all night long


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## Sunnie1984

Libbylou - You should definitely seek some assistance from your doctor etc. There is nothing worse than feeling down, and, as Noelle says, the quicker you seek help, the sooner you can feel much much better. :flower: I don't think we need to sleep training as she goes to sleep no problem, and settles herself all of the time. Just recently she's been more awake when she wakes at night, and takes an hour or so to tire herself out again. She also struggles as she doesn't know what to do when she gets onto her stomach, and she gets frustrated and cries out. 

Socity and Irish Eyes - I also agree that you need to seek some support from your doctor. Noelle has great advice :flower:

Noelle - I think sometimes they can be really loud when they try to settle and we think that there's something wrong, and then we wake them up when we go to them. I love love love our video monitor as I can see what she's doing (usually on her front screaming!) and then I can work out how much I need to get involved. 

Shadowy Lady - :hugs: I think it depends on how sick you are. If you feel really rotten, leave her in the woombie for now, and then remove it when you feel better. If you feel well enough to deal with it, stick it out, it'll take her a few days to begin to adapt to it. 

Aimee - :hugs: That's just rotten. Glad you stayed home to try to catch up somewhat. Perhaps it's worth getting him checked out by a doctor? Maybe it's just a bad night, or just teething, but it sounds really bad all of a sudden, so maybe there's more going on? 

Bananaz - Sounds like a good night considering she was poorly. I can imagine she was not at all impressed at having to be de-gunked! :thumbup:


As for me, last night was so-so. She woke a few times turning herself over in the three hours after she went to bed, but just turned her over and she went back to sleep. 

She finally settled on her side (almost on her tummy) and feel asleep, but I ended up moving her into the middle of the cot, so I could see her on the monitor, and then she toppled over onto her stomach and woke up :dohh:

Then awake for 30 mins at 3am and at 4am she woke and was really upset. I cuddled her with her dummy for 5 mins and back to sleep. 

5am she did another 30 mins babbling and then up for the day at 7am. 

I'm wondering if she's cold. We're in the middle east and her room temp is now 21 degrees. She usually has it about 25-26. Obviously we have aircon, but no heater, so I'm going to go buy an oil heater today to heat up her room before bed. I figure if I get it to 26 degrees, it can cool slowly overnight.


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## Irish Eyes

libbylou said:


> irish - ugh, those MOTN parties are killing us all. DH's family is useless as well. They live 2 mins away and we never see them and they never help. I find it really hard to ask for help (control issues here too haha) and even when I do ask for help I often feel like I've failed because I need help or I end up regretting it because it was more grief than help

Maybe you're me in another country?! That's exactly how I feel. I know I need help but I don't want to ask for it as it's like admitting I can't cope. The one time I did was over Christmas, I was so ill & LO was waking so often that I stayed at my mums (the whole family was there) and she had him in her room for one night. I ended up getting up at 6am anyway as if to proove I'm not lazy! Pointless!

well we had an hourly wake up call last night. Told hubby I think LO's just checking that I'm still breathing :dohh: At the 2am wake-up I took a minute to come round and got in his room to find one of the dogs sat by his crib looking up as if to say "where the hell were you? he's been crying for a whole minute" On the plus side the night weaning is working, still only one feed of 5oz! 

I'm pretty much running on adrenaline now and just realised that I haven't washed my hair in a week!! I was not going to be one of "those mums" that let herself go, now I'm leading those mums to greasy hair victory!


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## Irish Eyes

Sunnie the recommended temp for babies room is between 16-20* but LOs is always around 24-25* any lower and he wakes up cold! I've got one of those montiors that tells you the temp and it's constantly saying "too hot". There's snow outside, he's allowed a bit of warmth!


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## aliss

bananaz said:


> On a side note, I took LO to the pediatrician today because her cough has gotten a lot worse and I was told that if I think her congestion is disturbing her at night then I should go in and squirt saline into her nose _while she's sleeping_! First of all, LO is a tummy sleeper so that would be difficult but second of all there's no freaking way I'd intentionally wake her up like that :wacko: The doctor said she would just snuffle and sputter and then go back to sleep. Um, I don't think so!

Surely he has lost his damn mind???


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## Noelle610

Aliss, I think you're officially allowed to be here! 2 hours IS tiring. That said, I still think it's in the range of normal for 2 months old. Don't give up hope on your potentially good sleeper yet!

Bananaz.... Your ped must be smoking something, really. 

To the ladies having tough nights / weaning / breaking off the swaddle, my heart is with you! Stick with your plans. It's soooo hard when you're exhausted but babies learn super fast. Oh and on temperature - Charlotte likes it warm too. We used a space heater at my dad's over the holidays and she slept great, so we got one at home. 

Our night was great! I decided to give C 10 minutes or so to settle herself when she woke around 2am and 5am and she went back to sleep both times. So less interference is definitely better for us! It did take her 30 minutes to fall asleep, which is unusual for her, but she was bust scooting around her crib trying to crawl :). She woke up in a great mood. I love that after a good night of sleep for both of us.


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## aliss

See I don't mind the 2 hours, still normal for me... it's the 4am grunting, 430am,5am,530.... the light sleep cycles at the end :rofl:

So glad you had a great night!!


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## Noelle610

aliss said:


> See I don't mind the 2 hours, still normal for me... it's the 4am grunting, 430am,5am,530.... the light sleep cycles at the end :rofl:
> 
> So glad you had a great night!!

UGH yeah.... Charlotte did that until recently and ssometimes still does. DH and I call it "the four o'clock shuffle". I hate that light sleep / fussy time in the early morning. I could never sleep through it!


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## Leids

Wooo William went to bed at 9:30 (earliest EVER) and slept until 8am (he did wake to nurse but went right back to sleep). :happydance: So happy! Finally making more progress. Yay for routines.


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## mrsbeano

We had a sttn :happydance: Tried to DF at 10pm but not really interested (only took 3oz) and then went through 6.30-6.30. Hallelujah! 

It appears that my mum was right although this does mean 4 meals a day! Breakfast at 8, lunch at 11, dinner at 3 and I suppose supper at 6ish. 

When he did a run of sttn a couple of months ago he did 9 nights and I relaxed to sttn myself on the 8th night. Then he stopped haha. Last night I was pretty much just dozing from about 3ish, doh! But that was my fault so go Quinn!

Aliss, how long is Philippe going between feeds in the daytime? I found that stretching it out in the day helped Quinn feed better and then go longer at night. 2 hours is sooo hard because you don't get a full sleep cycle in yourself. Saying this, you're practically a sleep professional so probably don't need my made up tips. :dohh:

So sorry that so many of you are having tough times with the sleep. I know how you feel about not wanting to ask for help. My family are all in the mental health profession and I just don't want to tell them I'm struggling because they're always diagnosing Joe Bloggs with something or another and will be telling me I have PP Psychosis or whatever. Not crazy, just knackered LOL. 

They also did it on their own and just want to continue their life without the disruption of grandchildren which is their choice I suppose. 

Bananaz - agreed your Dr is def on something. FACT. 

Hope everyones nights improve tonight.


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## Noelle610

Leids said:


> Wooo William went to bed at 9:30 (earliest EVER) and slept until 8am (he did wake to nurse but went right back to sleep). :happydance: So happy! Finally making more progress. Yay for routines.

I am thrilled for you!!!!!


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## Noelle610

That's great MrsBeano! I know it doesnt' work for everyone, but I have found that Charlotte sleeps best if she drinks / eats well during the day. I usually do a pretty heaty meal for dinner around 5:15pm and try to include some fat - avocado, yogurt and chicken are all good.


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## Boo44

Well Jack's ill AGAIN it really is one thing after the other! We'd just got over his ear infection and he was sleeping and eating (which I actually get more stressy about!) great. Last night he developed this deep chesty smokes cough :( Woke himself up coughing at 3, 4.30 and 5.30. He got back to sleep each time. I gave him calpol at the last wake up and he slept til 7.10

He's so sad today bless him :( been sleeping a lot and not interested in his toys

Also we've got about half a bottle of amoxicillin still in the fridge and its within date. It's from his ear infection which he has only been clear of about a week! We are tempted to give him another couple of days.....


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## Noelle610

Aw poor Jack. I'm sorry Boo! It seems like Charlotte has been ill all winter, so you have my sympathies. I get really anxious about her not eating well, too. Like Jack, she's always been funny with milk.

I would give him the rest of the antibiotic. We were always told to finish the bottle. Hope he is feeling better soon! It's good that he's sleeping a lot today - that should help.


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## Sunnie1984

Noelle610 said:


> aliss said:
> 
> 
> See I don't mind the 2 hours, still normal for me... it's the 4am grunting, 430am,5am,530.... the light sleep cycles at the end :rofl:
> 
> So glad you had a great night!!
> 
> UGH yeah.... Charlotte did that until recently and ssometimes still does. DH and I call it "the four o'clock shuffle". I hate that light sleep / fussy time in the early morning. I could never sleep through it!Click to expand...

We're having this too. She did this a couple of nights when she first STTN but then it stopped and she slept solidly through. 

I think the rolling has shattered her sleep and she's struggling to get through the lighter sleep stages. 

I'm on my own tonight as DH is away for work for the next few days, so I'm going to bed really early, and hoping she decides to STTN. 

I couldn't find a heater in the whole of the UAE.... so I've put her in two sleepsuits and her sleeping bag and hoping for the best. 

Boo - I would give him the rest of the bottle. You are usually supposed to finish the entire set of antibiotics, even if you are well before the end. :thumbup:

Well DD has gone down for the night, really tired and cranky, so here's crossing my fingers!


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## Noelle610

Ah Sunnie, the imfamous rolling in sleep! I hated that until Charlotte got comfy on her tummy. I had to "rescue" her all night long. It does pass.


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## Sunnie1984

Noelle610 said:


> Ah Sunnie, the imfamous rolling in sleep! I hated that until Charlotte got comfy on her tummy. I had to "rescue" her all night long. It does pass.


How long did Charlotte take to adapt? We're a week into it, and about to come out of WW 19, so I'm hoping it's going to get better soon. 

Did Charlotte have to learn to roll back, or did she just get comfy on her tummy?

x


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## bananaz

aliss said:


> See I don't mind the 2 hours, still normal for me... it's the 4am grunting, 430am,5am,530.... the light sleep cycles at the end :rofl:

Oh god, I remember the 4am grunting and writhing. That was how LO ended up in her own room (well, that and the fact that she needed white noise to sleep and I can't sleep with white noise).



Leids said:


> Wooo William went to bed at 9:30 (earliest EVER) and slept until 8am (he did wake to nurse but went right back to sleep). :happydance: So happy! Finally making more progress. Yay for routines.

That's amazing! go William! Wasn't he going to bed at midnight just a few weeks ago?



mrsbeano said:


> We had a sttn :happydance: Tried to DF at 10pm but not really interested (only took 3oz) and then went through 6.30-6.30. Hallelujah!
> 
> It appears that my mum was right although this does mean 4 meals a day! Breakfast at 8, lunch at 11, dinner at 3 and I suppose supper at 6ish.
> 
> When he did a run of sttn a couple of months ago he did 9 nights and I relaxed to sttn myself on the 8th night. Then he stopped haha. Last night I was pretty much just dozing from about 3ish, doh! But that was my fault so go Quinn!

Wow, another awesome night. I've been finding the same thing about regular meals, as much as I want to think it's just an old wives' tale. I hope Quinn keeps it up for you :)



Boo44 said:


> Well Jack's ill AGAIN it really is one thing after the other! We'd just got over his ear infection and he was sleeping and eating (which I actually get more stressy about!) great. Last night he developed this deep chesty smokes cough :( Woke himself up coughing at 3, 4.30 and 5.30. He got back to sleep each time. I gave him calpol at the last wake up and he slept til 7.10
> 
> He's so sad today bless him :( been sleeping a lot and not interested in his toys
> 
> Also we've got about half a bottle of amoxicillin still in the fridge and its within date. It's from his ear infection which he has only been clear of about a week! We are tempted to give him another couple of days.....

Oh, poor guy, why can't he catch a break? I don't know about the antibiotics but I've always been told to take the full course even if you're feeling recovered so I'm sure it wouldn't hurt :shrug: It's great that he's resettling himself after waking though!



Sunnie1984 said:


> Well DD has gone down for the night, really tired and cranky, so here's crossing my fingers!

I hope she sleeps well for you! We struggled for a bit with the rolling too but eventually I just started putting LO down on her belly and that really helped.



Last night was amazing, despite LO's cold. She went down a little after 7pm and didn't wake until 4:30am - almost 10 hours! I nursed her and she went straight back to sleep until 6:30am. Again, I hate to say this, but I can't help but notice a very direct correlation between nights where she eats significant amounts of solids (namely rice cereal :blush:) and how long that first stretch of sleep lasts.


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## Noelle610

Bananaz, so glad you had a good night! I've found the same connection between solids and sleep. I'm sorry to say I don't think it's an old wives tale, either, at least not for us. I mean, it makes sense.... If your baby is waking to feed. Obviously it doesn't necessarily correlate to all sleep issues, but it's reasonable to think that a baby that eats more during the day won't be as hungry at night (excluding small babies with tiny tummies that need to eat round the clock).


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## Shadowy Lady

Alright, a lot happened since I posted last night. Let me try and catch up. Sorry if I missed some of you guys. This thread has gotten really active...not sure if that's a good thing though :wacko:

Lysh - I'm glad your nights are still improving :thumbup:

Leids and Mrsbeano - yey for sttn!!! :happydance:

Aliss - sorry to hear Philip seems to not be a good sleeper. Surely though he will improve...he's pretty young still :hugs:

So Sofia did go to sleep after exactly 1.5 hours of fussing. I went in to check with her every 5 mins. Once she did sleep though, she didn't wake up till 11 pm (her recent feeding time)...and then asleep again till 2:20 am, up for feed and down again till 6:30 am when she was up for the day. I'm glad I sucked it up with the sleep suit. She can't be swaddled forever and she seems to be adapting fairly easily.

Irish - Since you asked about night weaning: I started to night wean Sofia last night gradually. I will be adding 30 mins each night to the intervals between her feed. Last night the interval was 3.5 hours and she made it easy by not waking up before then. Tonight we'll increase it to 4 hours. Will keep you guys posted on the process. It's pretty much based on Ferber's book.


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## socitycourty

my LO had a bad night. she spent most of the early evening screaming for no reason, tried everything and then realized it might be her teeth so gave her some motrin.

slept in our bed, tossed and turned all night. up for the day at 5 am.

oh and we also discovered a mouse problem in our kitchen ............. FML!


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## Noelle610

Shadowy Lady, it sounds like Sofia did great without the swaddle, despite having a hard time falling asleep! I'm glad it's working out for you. In a week she won't even miss it.

Socity... a rough night, an early wake up AND a mouse? Yuck!


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## Boo44

Shadowy - how do you lengthen the gap between feedings if she wakes earlier? Just comfort her until the 4hrs? X


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## Shadowy Lady

Boo44 said:


> Shadowy - how do you lengthen the gap between feedings if she wakes earlier? Just comfort her until the 4hrs? X

Exactly! I go in every 1, 3 and then 5 mins until she falls asleep. I usually kiss her forehead, touch her chest and tell her to go to sleep then leave. She usually cries harder as soon as I leave for like a minute but then falls asleep. 

I picked the 4 hour interval based on her usual intervals between feeds though. If she was feeding every 2 hours I'd start with that. The key is to be consistent and just slowly add to the interval every night.

Hope it helped :hugs:


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## Irish Eyes

Shadowy I guess I kind of went cold turkey on him for night weaning! He had gotten to taking 3/4 feeds every night and was hardly eating during the day. So on the first day I offered him a feed every 2 hours during the day. At night whenever he woke I would just comfort him, even to the point where I was letting him sleep on me and laying him down upset him more. I gave him a full feed at 1am and then again didn't allow him anything but comforted him a lot with cuddles. I did the next feed at 7am (he wakes at 6am). It worked amazingly well and his daytime feeds went back to normal! Although he does still wake in the night, it's no longer due to hunger and he's just on one feed per night.


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## Boo44

Thanks shadowy! I was interested as to how it worked!

Well Jack has just gone to bed after drinking a grand total of 0 oz of his bedtime bottle :( he is so sad and refused it completely. Not feeling very positive about tonight!


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## AngelUK

Boo Sebastian pretty much always refuses his bed time bottle. So we wait till he has fallen asleep and then dreamfeed him it. Is this something that might work for Jack too?


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## Boo44

AngelUK said:


> Boo Sebastian pretty much always refuses his bed time bottle. So we wait till he has fallen asleep and then dreamfeed him it. Is this something that might work for Jack too?

Thanks for the idea angel! We'd thought of that too for tonight. But tbh I think he feels too poorly for it so we'll just go by his lead tonight. I've got a bottle of water on hand for him as his cough is really bad xx


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## AngelUK

Poor little thing! I hope he feels better soon! :hugs:


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## anti

Argh! Ashlynn only took one nap today but it was really long, 2 1/2 hours, which is long for her!! Then she went to bed at 7:30pm, woke 40 mins later for 15 mins, then woke 40 mins later again and has now been awake over an hour and will not go back to sleep!!!! Hoping when she does go back to sleep its gonna be a good night. She was up at 4am this morning for 1 1/2 hours. Her day time naps are all over the place and not consistent at all (even though I've tried!!) and that messes up her night time sleep. It's been getting worse for about a week now! Really starting to dread nap times and bed times. Wish I could enjoy this all a bit more. :( really puts me off having another kid!!!


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## lysh

There was a lot to catch up on! I am sorry I cannot respond more personally this evening....I am starting to not feel well again and now I am just agitated. We had a snow day today which was nice, so I got to enjoy the day with my girl. We even took a few naps together. But then tonight, putting her down, was hell. She cried for 10 minutes after putting her down, so I went in and tried nursing her one more time. When I put her down again she screamed. This went on for 20 minutes. :nope: She finally fell asleep, but this is not boding well for the rest of the evening. So now my anxieties are up and I cannot concentrate on much.

Could I have set her back by taking naps with her??? This is not unusual though. Nap times have always been a struggle with her and I tend to mix it up between putting her in her crib, holding her, or napping with her (depending on her mood). I have not pushed her to stay in her crib during nap times lately. I think it is working mom guilt!!! But night time has not been an issue for a long time....typically we do bath then I nurse her in the rocking chair and put her to bed without an problem. ugh

Well, I hope you ladies are hanging in!


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## socitycourty

lysh said:


> There was a lot to catch up on! I am sorry I cannot respond more personally this evening....I am starting to not feel well again and now I am just agitated. We had a snow day today which was nice, so I got to enjoy the day with my girl. We even took a few naps together. But then tonight, putting her down, was hell. She cried for 10 minutes after putting her down, so I went in and tried nursing her one more time. When I put her down again she screamed. This went on for 20 minutes. :nope: She finally fell asleep, but this is not boding well for the rest of the evening. So now my anxieties are up and I cannot concentrate on much.
> 
> Could I have set her back by taking naps with her??? This is not unusual though. Nap times have always been a struggle with her and I tend to mix it up between putting her in her crib, holding her, or napping with her (depending on her mood). I have not pushed her to stay in her crib during nap times lately. I think it is working mom guilt!!! But night time has not been an issue for a long time....typically we do bath then I nurse her in the rocking chair and put her to bed without an problem. ugh
> 
> Well, I hope you ladies are hanging in!


i hope your night gets better. I always dread the evenings and I also have anxiety/panic attacks and I always start to feel anxious when she's fussy, because then I start getting anxious about having anxiety! i hope you feel better and have an ok night :hugs:


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## Noelle610

I'm sorry for the ladies having bad nights. Lysh, my Charlotte is so tough with sleep. I have to be brutally consistent or she won't sleep well, so perhaps your LO is the same? We go through a rough patch every time there's teething, illness, etc and I start relaxing on good habits. It sucks, but it's just the way it is for us. 

Last night was awesome! Charlotte STTN from 6:45pm to 7:15am. She woke super happy and sweet. I have a cold and slept good, too. She had perfect naps yesterday (8:45-10 and 1:30-3) and ate a lot of protein, so of course now I will obsess about recreating this day. LOL, why can't I just enjoy a good thing?!


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## Shadowy Lady

Lysh - sorry to hear about your bad night :( I know naps were hard for us too. But now they're getting better. Still sometimes I like to nap with her in our bed.

Last night wasn't too bad at least for Sofia. She went down at 7 pm w/o fuss. You'd think she wasn't swaddled up until 2 nights ago! Plan was to not feed her before 11 (4hours). Well she woke up at 11 pm so I fed her right away. Then I had to wait for 3 am for her next feed. But she didn't wake till 4 am! So far I haven't done any cc she just wakes up on time or later. Unfortunately she wanted to be up for the day at 6 am....played with her for a bit and then she went down for a nap at 7:30 am....she's still sleeping t 8:30.

I however had a rough night....I had dry cough all night long and prob got 3-4 hours of broken sleep :/ I have soooo much to do today too...first day of Salsa Baby today then I gotta drive to my parents 45 mins away and it's been snowing since last night


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## aliss

Wow Noelle, that's amazing for 7 months!!! We didn't get that until 20ish months minimum, glad to see she's finally doing something different than Alex :rofl: There's always blips along the way but it certainly seems to be improving.

Philippe was an absolute nightmare all day, spent 80% of the day crying and refusing to sleep it's awful, a tooth is poking out. Oh great, now he's up! Byyyyyyyyye


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## Noelle610

aliss said:


> Wow Noelle, that's amazing for 7 months!!! We didn't get that until 20ish months minimum, glad to see she's finally doing something different than Alex :rofl: There's always blips along the way but it certainly seems to be improving.
> 
> Philippe was an absolute nightmare all day, spent 80% of the day crying and refusing to sleep it's awful, a tooth is poking out. Oh great, now he's up! Byyyyyyyyye

Haha... Well it won't last! If there's anything I've learned about Charlotte, she is constantly changing. She'll probably be up 10 times tonight, so I'm just enjoying it :haha: 

Oh no, poor Philippe! He sure is teething early. Have you tried an amber teething necklace? I haven't yet, but my hippy friend who is always right swears by it, so I think I'm going to get one. Charlotte really struggles with teething and has loooong night wakings where she is inconsolable.


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## Noelle610

Shadowy Lady, I'm so happy to hear about your progress with the swaddle! I knew Sofia would learn quickly. She seems pretty reasonable :)


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## bananaz

*Noelle* - That's so great! I totally know what you mean about obsessing over good days. In fact I've started taking down brief daily notes on Elsie's meals, routines, outings, etc in the hopes of being able to recreate good days and avoid bad ones. You never know what level of crazy you're capable of until you have a kid who won't sleep :wacko:

*Shadowy* - Yay, good going, Sofia :thumbup: So glad to hear the Woombie transition and night weaning are both going well. I hope you feel better soon

*aliss* - Oh god, I'm so sorry you're having to deal with bad teething on top of the sleep issues! Well on the bright side I hope no one peed on your bed today??

*lysh* - Hopefully your night went okay despite the rough start. It's really hard to say what may or may not affect them, but generally I've found that how my LO goes down for naps doesn't really have any bearing on nighttime sleep. I still almost always have to nurse her to sleep during the day, but she can self-settle at night :shrug:

*anti* - Ugh, I've been there, that is really tough. Sometimes I don't think there's anything you can really do, you just have to ride it out. I hope it improves for you soon.



Last night wasn't as spectacular as the night before but it was still quite good. She slept 7pm-3:20am, nursed, and then fell back asleep until 5:50am. Unfortunately I couldn't fall asleep after that waking and just lay in bed feeling anxious and sick.

Tonight I'm going to start gradual night weaning yet again but I'm scared because it seems like every time I try to get rid of that last feeding something bad happens that makes her sleep get way worse - she starts teething or gets sick or has MOTN parties for no particular reason. I should probably stop being greedy and just leave well enough alone, but I think I'm going to push my luck anyway.


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## socitycourty

my baby really needs to sleep or i'm going to lose it. spent the night waking up with her, she wouldn't go to sleep till 10:30 and has been up since 6 am. she was also awake in the night too.

i just can't do it. i'm too tired and i have such a short fuse. plus the mice in my kitchen....i cried myself to sleep last night

my dh wants to do CIO but i just don't think i can. my nerves are shot already


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## bananaz

socitycourty said:


> my baby really needs to sleep or i'm going to lose it. spent the night waking up with her, she wouldn't go to sleep till 10:30 and has been up since 6 am. she was also awake in the night too.
> 
> i just can't do it. i'm too tired and i have such a short fuse. plus the mice in my kitchen....i cried myself to sleep last night
> 
> my dh wants to do CIO but i just don't think i can. my nerves are shot already

Aw it sounds like you are really shattered :hugs: Have you taken a look at Ferber's "Solve Your Child's Sleep Problems" book? Of course you shouldn't do anything you're not comfortable with, but progressive waiting (AKA controlled crying) can be done in a very gentle way, and it sounds like your husband has already volunteered for the job lol.


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## socitycourty

i need to read it. i have to rock her to sleep and she is awake as soon as i try to lay her down. 30 minute naps in the day. i can't keep up with it anymore.


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## Noelle610

Yes, take a look at the Ferber book! You don't need to read the whole thing, just read the chapter on sleep associations. It is really clear and has a chart to use, so you don't have to interpret anything nuts when you're exhausted. I also really like the "Healthy Sleep Habits, Happy Child" book, but it's too science-y if you're sleep deprived. It helps more now that Charlotte sleeps okay sometimes and she's a bit older.


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## Irish Eyes

socitycourty said:


> i need to read it. i have to rock her to sleep and she is awake as soon as i try to lay her down. 30 minute naps in the day. i can't keep up with it anymore.

I'm so sorry, I feel your pain! Might not help but my LO has been like that, waking every 20 minutes & wouldn't lay in the crib at all. Have you got a rocker chair or bouncy chair that your LO likes? My baby sleeps better in that than his crib sometimes. I don't want him sleeping in it forever but whatever helps to get a bit more sleep!


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## Aimee1003

Socity Courty- I feel ya! C is still up every 2 hrs at night. DH is helping but there are at least 2 wake ups where he will not go back to sleep til I have fed him.

I think we are going to try controlled cry for bedtime again. Last time I tried it he outlasted me [1.5 hrs] and I gave in. I am not going to do it for night wake ups. Can't anyway since C is failure to thrive for medical reasons.


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## Shadowy Lady

Aimee - hugs to you! Glad your DH is good help though. 

Our night weaning is going ok but only because we're not really trying and Sofia is adding 30 mins to her wakeup intervals herself each night. Last night she was up at 12am for a feed, slept and then up again at 4:30 am. But the issue is that she was up at 5:30 am after that, not wanting to go back to sleep. She has a cold too so her nose was all stuffy :/

I stopped taking Melatonin last night so I didn't sleep very well. I know it's all in my head though as Melatonin doesn't even help me. I'm not sure what to do about my own sleep issue without taking any meds.


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## Noelle610

Aw Shadowy Lady. I know how that feels. I hope you can get some rest soon, whatever the solution. I've heard really good things about the Nose Frida for stuffy babies (it's a snot sucker and you can get it on amazon). I feel Charlotte has been sick on and off this entire winter, so I'm right there with you!

Our night was wonderful - another STTN, although it took Charlotte quite awhile to fall asleep... She is proper crawling now! She crawled around her crib for at least 45 minutes, but then she must have been really tired because she then slept from 7:15pm to 6:30am. Sweet!!!!! Not sure how our nights are about to go, though, with the crawling and all. My girl has always been super sensitive to developmental milestones.


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## Shadowy Lady

How did everyone's night go? This thread has been quiet...I'm just assuming everyone's baby is like Charlotte and is starting to sttn :D

Our night wasn't bad. Sofia woke up at 11:30 pm and I told hubby to go feed her coz I was too tired to wait till 12. He did but said she wasn't interested. Then she proceeded to talk to herself till 12:15 when she finally fell asleep. She then woke up at 5:20 am had some boobie milk and went straight down till 8:30 am :)

I actually managed to make it to the bootcamp class at 8:30 am today! Feeling pretty good :) DH is away tonight and my mom is staying with us. Hoping it's another good night...


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## Irish Eyes

Still no sleeping here! We are currently having a motn party, 2 hours in & still going strong!


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## socitycourty

i noticed it had been too quiet. i've been busy dealing with the damn mouse problem here but my LO is still being her naughty self, she's been up since 7:30 a.m. and has had 2 catnaps of about 35 minutes each. it's killing me!

Hope you all are having a good weekend. My LO is crawling, today she said "dada' and she also pulled herself up to standing! it goes soooo fast


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## Noelle610

Charlotte STTN last night but woke at 5:30am. I tried to pretend it was a night waking and feed her back to sleep, but it was a no go :)

Her naps today were weird - I think because she was so excited to crawl. She took an okay morning nap, but it took forever to get her down because she kept crawling around the crib. She took forever to go down for her afternoon nap as well, and then only slept for 40 minutes or so. I'm curious to now how tonight will go.

Tomorrow we have a Baby Groove class at 9:30am - smack in the middle of nap time. I'm so nutty that I am thinking of waking her up early so that she can take a nap before the class.


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## Aimee1003

OMG! Coleton only woke up once last night! He slept from 7:30-2:30 and then 3-6:30. I feel like celebrating. 

C is not crawling yet but did pull to standing yesterday from a seated position.

Irish and Socity- I hope things get better soon


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## Noelle610

Aimee that's awesome!!!!!


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## bananaz

*Noelle* - So glad to hear she's still sleeping well. The crawling around the crib sounds really funny.

*Aimee* - That's awesome! Go Coleton!

*Shadowy* - Another good night, and self-settling too :) Yay!

*Irish* - Sorry to hear about the MOTN party, I hope she settled soon.

*socity* - Urgh, I hate those catnaps. Hopefully it's just a developmental thing and it will calm down ASAP.


The past few nights haven't been great for us. She's been waking up earlier in the night again and then getting up for the day between 5 and 5:30am :wacko: I guess that's what I get for trying to night wean, right? Something bad always happens! 

We're also both still sick which isn't helping, though she's finally on the mend and her only symptom seems to be a runny nose at this point. Meanwhile I'm feeling much worse, probably because I'm not getting enough sleep, so my method of handling her wakings has just been to feed her immediately and go back to bed. I know this probably isn't the best plan but I just don't have the mental faculty to do anything more in the middle of the night right now. I'm ready for this sleep thing to magically get better and stay better for a while :nope:


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## Sunnie1984

Sorry to see that people are still having blips (I know that doesn't even begin to cover it!). 

Aimee - wonderful news! Fingers crossed he decides he likes his sleep and continues it! 

Noelle - Boo for early morning wake ups. I've started ignoring Seren if she wakes early, until she cries, and then I get up with her. She doesn't tend to feed immediately on waking, so I can sometimes get up to an hour of babbling and cat napping - although that means neither of us are really sleeping, but it's more restful than getting up. 

Bananaz - sorry you're still having a bit of a tough time, I hope you are both feeling much better asap. 

Yawn 5 night wakings last night, not really for anything, although twice she did turn over and need rescuing. She's only really awake for about 5-10 mins each time, and she settles herself, but unbroken sleep is a killer. 

I did notice that she's got an edge come through on her bottom right middle tooth, I think it's come up this afternoon, so I'm hoping it will push through and give her some relief. 

She's been teething solidly for 8 days now, so I hope it yields something, rather than just them moving around. 

Last night she refused to go to bed until 7:30 as she had a late afternoon nap at 4:40pm. So that seems to have roughly broken her desire to go to bed earlier. She went down at about 7pm tonight after taking longer after her bath to finish feeding and settle. 

Still waking at 6am, which is a bit of a killer, but I'm hoping it'll pass once she's finished teething, for this round. 

We're at the end of WW19, according to the book, so we've got about 3 weeks until WW26 unsettled period starts..... hoping I can get some decent sleep before then! :dohh:


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## Noelle610

Bananaz, until you're both feeling better you do whatever you need to to maximize sleep regardless of "good habits" and don't feel guilty about it! After Charlotte is sick, we always have a few tough nights while she adjusts, but babies are adaptable. 

Sunnie, I venture you'll get much better rest after that tooth breaks through and the fussy phase of WW19 comes to a close. WW26 wasn't half as bad for us, although it does suck that they are so close together. Charlotte is very sensitive to developmental milestones, so I sympathize.


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## libbylou

I haven't posted for a few days because it was the usual crap sleep and nothing new to report
Last night was decent though. She went down at 8:30 (we had company so she was up a bit later than usual) and slept until 12:30. I nursed her and she was back asleep by 1, then up at 6:30. Unfortunately she decided to get up for the day at 6:30 (this is super early for her, normally she sleeps until 7:30-8 or even later). She did wake a few times crying in there but put herself back to sleep within a couple of mins.
I still only got about 6 hours last night between getting to bed later than I wanted to, and not being able to fall asleep.

Sunnie - the broken sleep is the worst. At least your LO goes back to sleep relatively quickly, thats a small blessing. When mine requires my help to settle her (instead of crying for a min or two and putting herself back to sleep), we're generally looking at a window of anywhere from 30 mins to 3 hours to get her back to sleep :wacko:

Bananaz - I'd do the same thing, you've got to make concessions when you're not feeling well. Hopefully you start feeling better soon and can get Elsie's sleep back under control

aimee - SO exciting!!! Hope he keeps it up and isn't just teasing you!

socity - hope your LO starts giving you some rest soon, you can't keep going like this without breaking :(

Irish - Grrr! Does your LO cry the entire time or play during a MOTN party? 

shadowy - not a bad night! Good that you were able to get to bootcamp, I find exercise makes me feel so much better! Of course its near impossible when you get like 5 hours of sleep a night :wacko:


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## socitycourty

I'm just wondering how I'm supposed ot do anything if she's always like this! I don't sleep,I can barely eat, my DH is complaining that we don't spend enough time together (and forget about the sex) I put her to sleep twice and tried to lay her down, her eyes pop open immediately and then I have to do it all over again, then she's in the bed with us. the thing is she doesn't even sleep very well in the bed. IDK what to do


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## libbylou

Socity - I don't know much about sleep training reflux babies, but it sounds like her big problem is learning to self settle and put herself to sleep?
If her reflux is under control, maybe you can do some research into a method of sleep training that you feel comfortable with and give it a try?
Even though Everette is still a crap sleeper, at least the sleep training taught her to self settle so it doesn't take hours to put her to sleep anymore and she does sleep for longer stretches and can settle herself sometimes when she wakes.
I know you said you don't want to listen to any more crying since she cries all the time anyway, but I said the same thing before we attempted sleep training. Honestly, the amount of crying she did during the sleep training (camping out/CC) was significantly less than the amount of crying pre-sleep training and now the amount of crying (from both of us!!) surrounding sleep is also significantly less. 
I don't know if you've looked into the No Cry Sleep Solution yet? It didn't work for us, but its worth a shot to see if it works for your LO


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## Shadowy Lady

Feel like I'm gonna lose it :nope: She was up 5 times last night, napped only 20 mins today and has been crying on and off since being put to bed an hour ago...this is soooo unlike her....I don't know what to do :cry:


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## socitycourty

Shadowy Lady said:


> Feel like I'm gonna lose it :nope: She was up 5 times last night, napped only 20 mins today and has been crying on and off since being put to bed an hour ago...this is soooo unlike her....I don't know what to do :cry:

teething??? that really fucks up their sleep. i feel for you!:hugs:


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## megangrohl

I am getting pissed off. Lily is making me so frustrated!!!!!!!!! She sleeps in her playpen fine for all of her naps. She currently has 2 naps a day. Then she will sleep in it from 7 to 10 pm and then as soon as 10 pm hits all hell breaks loose. She refuses to go back into her playpen and will only sleep in my bed with DF and I. She tosses and turns the entire night, I get NO sleep and I am so fking cranky I can't do this anymore. It is causing fights with DF and I because he thinks we should just keep doing the easiest thing feeding her to sleep. 

SHE ISNT EVEN HUNGRY! I gave her a huge supper at 5 and then 7 oz formula at 7pm there is no way in hell she is hungry 3 hours later when during the day she goes 5 hours between bottles! Why won't she sleep in her own bed past 10pm it's really making me so angry I can't do it anymore!!!!!!!!!

Oh and I have tried CIO and all she does is cry for hours (so far 3 hours is the track record) then ends up over working herself that she vomits all over the place. So CIO doesn't work. I really am at a loss with what to do here. I have also tried PU/PD and that also does not work. As soon as she sees either me or DF she goes ballistic, inconsolable!!! All I am asking for is 5 god damn hours of sleep!


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## socitycourty

^^^i really feel for you! my situation is the same right now


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## Noelle610

Hey girls, sorry that everyone is having a tough time.

Shadowy Lady, get Sofia checked for an ear infection. That's often the culprit when we're having a particularly bad night. 

Megan, that sounds so awful. I'm sure it's separation anxiety. I wish I had some better tips on how to deal with it. We've been fortunate and the anxiety seems to present itself during the day for the most part. Does Lilly have a comfort object?

We're teething here again, so our night was okay - a couple wake ups, but I think she's doing very well considering. We had 5 nights of STTN 11-12 hours prior, so I can't complain! My poor pumpkin. Hope the tooth pops through quickly.


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## megangrohl

I figured it was either separation anxiety or her learning to walk. She has been standing up by herself the last 2 days so maybe it is a bit of both but I am so tired. She didn't wake up for a feed lastnight at 3am like she usually does so that's a good thing. I am trying to get her to stop eating in the middle of the night because she is eating more than enough during the day. She does not have a comfort object, other than our bed....lol


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## bananaz

*Megan *- That is really tough. Does she fall asleep right away when you bring her in bed with you or does she want to eat?

*Noelle* - Sorry about the wakeups but I'm sure you must be glad there's an obvious temporary reason for them! I hope the tooth erupts quickly as well.

*Shadowy* - I agree with Noelle, I would see about an ear infection, especially since she's been sick recently if I remember right?


Elsie's sleep is continuing to get worse. Her night wakings are creeping earlier and earlier and she was up for an hour at 2am last night. You'd think she would want to sleep in a bit after that but nope - up for the day at 5:45! I'm so fucking sick of this rollercoaster ride. Every time I let myself feel hopeful that things are getting better there's a huge backslide for no discernible reason and it takes weeks if not months to get back to where she was before. I don't have any kind of gameplan anymore. I don't know how to respond to her or when, it's pointless when the effects seem totally random.

It doesn't help that she is now completely uninterested in all solids except for rice cereal, and as tempted as I am to just give her three meals of rice cereal a day I don't think that would be very healthy. I know I shouldn't complain when other people here have it much worse than I do but it's so hard to get my hopes up a little and have them smashed again and again. How many months of this BS are we going to go through? :cry:


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## megangrohl

She falls asleep straight away. She doesn't want to eat at all. Lastnight after letting her cry a bit in her bed, we brought her into ours and she slept 11:30-6:30 this morning. So it must be something to do with separation anxiety, or habit? Not sure what to do, or if it is separation anxiety if I should just keep doing it.

I know how you feel about the rollercoaster ride. She goes from not sleeping well, to sleeping 10 hours straight to not sleeping well to sleeping decent again then back to not sleeping well. Argh! Won't be getting any sleep until she is 2. All I am asking for is 5 or 6 hours of sleep even if it is broken up 3 hours and then 3 hours! And even if she has 1 good night of sleep the next 5 are HELL


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## Shadowy Lady

Thanks guy! She finally did go o sleep at 10:30 after the Advil took affect and slept till 5 am. She seems ok today though. I will start the night with Advil to eliminate teething issue. If sleep is bad again I will call the doc.

Megan - I'm not too familiar with separation anxiety but ur LO def sounds like she's going through it. Especially since she sleeps well in ur bed.

Bananaz - awwwww honey I totally feel for u. Have u talked to a nutritionist about Elsie's eating habits? I don't know how it is in ur state but here in Ontario we get access to free nutrition consulting. I haven't had to use it but my friend with 7 months old LO did and she said the change of daytime eating habits has helped a lot with her LO sleep at night.


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## megangrohl

Ahhhh ok. So since it sounds like separation anxiety, should I continue to let her sleep in our bed? I don't want to upset her & when she was crying lastnight she sounded so upset and scared :(


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## lysh

3:45 am is LOs new wake up time! ugh 

Bananaz-How about oatmeal? That is our staple food- I give it to her 3 times a day with either a fruit or veggie. Some days she eats more than others, but I still offer 3x a day. I am sorry she is having a backslide....I go through the same thing and it is o frustrating.

Shadowylady- I agree- get her checked out. It could be an ear infection or maybe early teeth getting ready to pop out?

megangrohl- Good luck...we have not hit separation anxiety and I am dreading it.

Question- What did you ladies do to try to get on a nap schedule?? Since LO typically wakes up at all different times I am having a hard time with this, yet I am wondering if more of a schedule would help her?


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## megangrohl

When my little girl was a newborn I did sleep every 90 minutes of being awake. It depends on your baby but I'd say to just follow the cues and when they seem tired put down for a nap. at 6 months Lily was having 3 naps a day still. 30 minutes each nap


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## socitycourty

bananaz said:


> *Megan *- That is really tough. Does she fall asleep right away when you bring her in bed with you or does she want to eat?
> 
> *Noelle* - Sorry about the wakeups but I'm sure you must be glad there's an obvious temporary reason for them! I hope the tooth erupts quickly as well.
> 
> *Shadowy* - I agree with Noelle, I would see about an ear infection, especially since she's been sick recently if I remember right?
> 
> 
> Elsie's sleep is continuing to get worse. Her night wakings are creeping earlier and earlier and she was up for an hour at 2am last night. You'd think she would want to sleep in a bit after that but nope - up for the day at 5:45! I'm so fucking sick of this rollercoaster ride. Every time I let myself feel hopeful that things are getting better there's a huge backslide for no discernible reason and it takes weeks if not months to get back to where she was before. I don't have any kind of gameplan anymore. I don't know how to respond to her or when, it's pointless when the effects seem totally random.
> 
> It doesn't help that she is now completely uninterested in all solids except for rice cereal, and as tempted as I am to just give her three meals of rice cereal a day I don't think that would be very healthy. I know I shouldn't complain when other people here have it much worse than I do but it's so hard to get my hopes up a little and have them smashed again and again. How many months of this BS are we going to go through? :cry:

you coud try barley, oatmeal or mixed grain cereals, earth's best makes some varieties that have fruit in thhem already. or you could add very mild purees to them like pear or apple? :hugs:


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## bananaz

lysh said:


> 3:45 am is LOs new wake up time! ugh
> 
> Bananaz-How about oatmeal? That is our staple food- I give it to her 3 times a day with either a fruit or veggie. Some days she eats more than others, but I still offer 3x a day. I am sorry she is having a backslide....I go through the same thing and it is o frustrating.
> 
> Shadowylady- I agree- get her checked out. It could be an ear infection or maybe early teeth getting ready to pop out?
> 
> megangrohl- Good luck...we have not hit separation anxiety and I am dreading it.
> 
> Question- What did you ladies do to try to get on a nap schedule?? Since LO typically wakes up at all different times I am having a hard time with this, yet I am wondering if more of a schedule would help her?


I'm a little paranoid that LO might have an oat sensitivity, but maybe I will add oatmeal back to my diet first and she if she's okay. I loooove oatmeal so that would be an easy fix.

About nap schedules, Elsie kind of naturally developed one between 6 and 7 months but she still has random days (okay, sometimes weeks lol) where it's off for whatever reason because her "optimal wake time" is in flux. I don't think it could hurt to try a schedule though, you should let us know how it goes


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## bananaz

socitycourty said:


> you coud try barley, oatmeal or mixed grain cereals, earth's best makes some varieties that have fruit in thhem already. or you could add very mild purees to them like pear or apple? :hugs:

Oooh thanks for the tip, I will have to check out the Earth's Best ones, that does sound promising!


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## socitycourty

i've gotten them at babies r us or target, my lo and my niece loved them. gerber also makes rice w/bananas and rice w/mixed fruit :)


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## Noelle610

Ugh Bananaz, I'm sorry. I know how utterly frustrating and anxiety provoking it is when your baby not only sleeps like crap, but also has seemingly no pattern. If it was bad but you knew what to expect, it would be so much easier. Much sympathy. Charlotte still seems to be unpredictable, so while I enjoy that she's sleeping well now I am just wondering when it will all go to hell. 

Charlotte loves oatmeal. I second Socity's recommendation for trying some purees mixed with grains and oats. I can't remember the brand right now (maybe Plum Organics?) but I recently gave Charlotte a store bought puree of blueberries and quinoa and she loved it! C goes through phases where she loves solids and phases where she's not so into eating and I do find it stressful.

Megan, re: separation anxiety.... It does sound like Lilly sleeps well in your bed. Are you able to get any rest that way? If it works for you, I think it's fine to continue for now. If you'd really prefer she sleep in her crib, I might try to introduce a lovey or comfort object. Like a blanket or stuffed animal. Charlotte didn't really "get it" at first, but now she has this little blankie that she LOVES. It's really helped us in unfamiliar situations, like when we're traveling as well.


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## socitycourty

Bananaz: do you make her cereals with breastmilk? does it make a difference if she eats the fruit/veg if the cereal is with breastmilk? my cousin started making up her LO's food with a tiny bit of formula (he was otherwise EBF) and he was much more interested in eating it, she said her dr. told her that formula is sweet to them. just a suggestion, don't know if you're adverse to it. since she's almost 9 months you could also use the toddler formulas which I think have vanilla flavoring or something.....

Just a suggestion, not trying to push the evil formula on you :)

it is frustrating when they won't eat, I always get stressed out if H seems to be off her solids. Luckily she's not too picky, and she's a chunker LOL


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## megangrohl

Noelle610 said:


> Megan, re: separation anxiety.... It does sound like Lilly sleeps well in your bed. Are you able to get any rest that way? If it works for you, I think it's fine to continue for now. If you'd really prefer she sleep in her crib, I might try to introduce a lovey or comfort object. Like a blanket or stuffed animal. Charlotte didn't really "get it" at first, but now she has this little blankie that she LOVES. It's really helped us in unfamiliar situations, like when we're traveling as well.

No I don't really get much sleep because she moves from her back to side to back to other side then she ends up sleeping with her head against me and feet against OH. She is restless alot of the time due to teething as well and as I am an extremely light sleeper every single movement wakes me up from any deep sleep I may enter. She has comfort objects but she doesn't take to them. She just wants me. I guess I could just keep trying with her little blankie we have.


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## Shadowy Lady

ok ladies I need your advice. Besides the one off night, Sofia sleeps till 12, eats and then again till 5:30-6. Now when she wakes up at 12, she barely eats. I know coz DH gives her EBM then and she barely takes like 2 oz. So I know she's not even hungry and could go till 5:30 am or so w/o a feed.

I think we should give her a dream feed at 11 pm. However, DH thinks we should just eliminate that feed using Ferber and not introduce df'ing at this stage. What would you guys do?


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## Noelle610

I introduced a dream feed late in Charlotte's life (at 6 months) because I wanted to respond to all of her night wakings consistently (by not feeding). It did work for us. I dropped the DF when she was 7 months over the Christmas holiday essentially because I was being lazy and she didn't wake for it. That said, we had three solid meals firmly established at that time so I'm confident she didn't need it. 

You could definitely try the dream feed and see how it works - Not all babies really "take" to it (either they won't eat, they fully wake up or they just wake up again at their "normal" time later), but some do and it works well for them. It can't hurt!


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## AngelUK

I've been wondering this too. I guess I am getting greedy though. I mean Dominic woke me at 12 briefly moaning in his sleep a little and then woke for his bottle at 12:40 and then slept till 6 YAY. But of course I would love to eliminate that midnightish feed. We usually go to bed at 10 as to have a chance of enough sleep even if the boys wake at around 5 again. But if we gave a dream-feed say at 11, would he then sleep till 5 or 6? Or would he then wake 4 hours later as per his usual feeding schedule. Hm. Also, I think he does usually wake when we feed him, so it wouldn't be a dreamfeed as such. 
Isn't it funny/sad that I am now so scared of disrupting Dominic's sleep that I don't even dare try this slight modification in his feeds? lol


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## lysh

Up at 3:30 again. ugh Been so busy I have not had a chance to catch up....between baby girl waking up so freaking early everyday and craziness at work I have not had much relaxing time. I wish I could get her to sleep later, but she is seriously WIDE awake!!! Out of desperation I have even been bringing her back into bed hoping that will help, but she wants nothing to do with sleep. Even putting her to bed a little later has not helped. When 4:30 starts to feel like sleeping in, we are in trouble!!!!! To top it off, I am getting anxieties at night again about the lack of sleep and I could not fall asleep until 11. So I got 4 1/2 hours of sleep. It is going to be a LONG morning and day at work! Hope you ladies fared better than I did last night.


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## lysh

bananaz said:


> lysh said:
> 
> 
> 3:45 am is LOs new wake up time! ugh
> 
> Bananaz-How about oatmeal? That is our staple food- I give it to her 3 times a day with either a fruit or veggie. Some days she eats more than others, but I still offer 3x a day. I am sorry she is having a backslide....I go through the same thing and it is o frustrating.
> 
> Shadowylady- I agree- get her checked out. It could be an ear infection or maybe early teeth getting ready to pop out?
> 
> megangrohl- Good luck...we have not hit separation anxiety and I am dreading it.
> 
> Question- What did you ladies do to try to get on a nap schedule?? Since LO typically wakes up at all different times I am having a hard time with this, yet I am wondering if more of a schedule would help her?
> 
> 
> I'm a little paranoid that LO might have an oat sensitivity, but maybe I will add oatmeal back to my diet first and she if she's okay. I loooove oatmeal so that would be an easy fix.
> 
> About nap schedules, Elsie kind of naturally developed one between 6 and 7 months but she still has random days (okay, sometimes weeks lol) where it's off for whatever reason because her "optimal wake time" is in flux. I don't think it could hurt to try a schedule though, you should let us know how it goesClick to expand...


I keep hoping it will naturally happen- she has never been good with schedules (as much as I love schedules, she has always been too inconsistent!). The problem now, is that I am only with her 2 full days a week and during the week I have different family members who watch her. I feel like that makes it harder. I wish I could tell them that she needs to take a nap at such and such times, but I have no idea. She fights naps too. I can get her to sleep nursing, but no one else can do that for me. I feel like I need a good 2 weeks home to try to figure out her 'new' schedule. And what sucks, is that she is up SO early that she is really ready for a nap when I have to leave for work. That is always a battle....I try to nurse her to sleep, but then when I have to leave she freaks. My DH tried to have her cry a bit in the crib to see if she would nap, but she just wakes herself up and gets hysterical. 
Oh well......this too shall pass!!!!


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## aliss

Big hugs lysh. I am also for a sub-4 wakeup here- its 25C out right now (the same for you I suppose, you aren' too far) and our heater broke. I haer him laughing in his bed (the older one obviously!!), argh, but Im ignoring it until he gets mad. I gave him an extra blanket.

Ironically the 3 month old is still asleep after his 3:30am feed. Tag teaming yet again


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## Noelle610

I am an early riser, but man oh man.... 3:30am is still the middle of the night! I feel for you ladies, I really do.

Question: Sleep is generally good here, but Charlotte has been doing something odd. She "stirs" about 45 minutes after going to sleep. She lets out a couple fusses/cries and seemingly goes straight back to sleep. This doesn't bother me at all. I'm still up and I rarely need to soothe her, but I don't understand why she is doing it. Everything I've read suggests she's overtired, but I don't think so! Yesterday she woke at 6:30am and napped from 8:40am-10:15am and 1:30pm-3:00pm. Perfect, right?! Then I put her to bed around 6:45pm. Could it be developmental? She's just learned to crawl and we're smack in WW37.


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## NickyKB

Sorry I'm a long term silent stalker! Just wanted to say my LO does this 45 minute stirring - sometimes just a bit of noise sometime 1-2 cries sometimes 5 mins of crying! He doesn't do it all the time but just occasionally he'll have a week of doing it and then it'll go again - he does seem to do it more when teeth are coming or when he's ill but sometimes we just don't seem to see a trigger.... Most of the time he settles himself very occasionally it goes on for a lot longer and he's working himself up so we go in but that really is unusual...

It does seem to happen to quite a few babies (when it started i found a thread where quite a few mummies had replied) a lot found they had to go in and do a brief shh/pat to stop it turning to a full wake up. I agree it never seemed to be when my Lo was particularly overtired.

HTH x

PS have thought about replying before to shadowy as my Lo is still in an arms out woombie at 9 months i'm just trying to get him out of it now starting with naps!


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## Noelle610

NickyKB said:


> Sorry I'm a long term silent stalker! Just wanted to say my LO does this 45 minute stirring - sometimes just a bit of noise sometime 1-2 cries sometimes 5 mins of crying! He doesn't do it all the time but just occasionally he'll have a week of doing it and then it'll go again - he does seem to do it more when teeth are coming or when he's ill but sometimes we just don't seem to see a trigger.... Most of the time he settles himself very occasionally it goes on for a lot longer and he's working himself up so we go in but that really is unusual...
> 
> It does seem to happen to quite a few babies (when it started i found a thread where quite a few mummies had replied) a lot found they had to go in and do a brief shh/pat to stop it turning to a full wake up. I agree it never seemed to be when my Lo was particularly overtired.
> 
> HTH x
> 
> PS have thought about replying before to shadowy as my Lo is still in an arms out woombie at 9 months i'm just trying to get him out of it now starting with naps!

Welcome to our party! Thanks for your comment. I'm glad to hear this isn't uncommon. At 8 months, Charlotte is definitely teething on and off, so perhaps that's it. I'm just waiting for the next couple to pop through :)


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## megangrohl

Lily does it too, and she is definitely not overtired. I think its just them slightly waking and resettling themselves. I also think it has to do with development. It is not an everyday thing just once in a while - usually when she is learning something new. There is tons of brain activity going on so it may also upset them a little bit. 

EDIT - She is also cutting her 5th tooth and had a bad day yesterday so it could also be down to teething. And like you, if I go in to settle her she gets mad so I just leave her. It is a good thing anyways so she learns to self settle.


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## AllyTiel

Noelle610 said:


> I am an early riser, but man oh man.... 3:30am is still the middle of the night! I feel for you ladies, I really do.
> 
> Question: Sleep is generally good here, but Charlotte has been doing something odd. She "stirs" about 45 minutes after going to sleep. She lets out a couple fusses/cries and seemingly goes straight back to sleep. This doesn't bother me at all. I'm still up and I rarely need to soothe her, but I don't understand why she is doing it. Everything I've read suggests she's overtired, but I don't think so! Yesterday she woke at 6:30am and napped from 8:40am-10:15am and 1:30pm-3:00pm. Perfect, right?! Then I put her to bed around 6:45pm. Could it be developmental? She's just learned to crawl and we're smack in WW37.

Noelle, I've had this happening lately. But its closer to an hour and a half to 2 hours after she goes to sleep. And super good naps for the day too! Like 9:00am to 10, then 1pm to 2, then 4pm til 5pm. But after I put her to bed, she ends up waking up fussing those few hours later. Really not longer than a minute, but I don't know what's causing it. She goes right back to sleep. She does it about one other time in the night. She let out a few fuss cries and 6:20 this morning and went back to sleep then too.


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## mrsbeano

Will have a proper read soon but had an awful night last night. 4 wakings and hee would only settle after 2/3 oz on the first 3. I don't get it? Sttn for 3 nights last week & then stopped and worse than before. 

The only thing I can think of is that he's getting thirsty because of a stuffy nose. Oh well, who needs sleep ay?


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## Noelle610

AllyTiel said:


> Noelle610 said:
> 
> 
> I am an early riser, but man oh man.... 3:30am is still the middle of the night! I feel for you ladies, I really do.
> 
> Question: Sleep is generally good here, but Charlotte has been doing something odd. She "stirs" about 45 minutes after going to sleep. She lets out a couple fusses/cries and seemingly goes straight back to sleep. This doesn't bother me at all. I'm still up and I rarely need to soothe her, but I don't understand why she is doing it. Everything I've read suggests she's overtired, but I don't think so! Yesterday she woke at 6:30am and napped from 8:40am-10:15am and 1:30pm-3:00pm. Perfect, right?! Then I put her to bed around 6:45pm. Could it be developmental? She's just learned to crawl and we're smack in WW37.
> 
> Noelle, I've had this happening lately. But its closer to an hour and a half to 2 hours after she goes to sleep. And super good naps for the day too! Like 9:00am to 10, then 1pm to 2, then 4pm til 5pm. But after I put her to bed, she ends up waking up fussing those few hours later. Really not longer than a minute, but I don't know what's causing it. She goes right back to sleep. She does it about one other time in the night. She let out a few fuss cries and 6:20 this morning and went back to sleep then too.Click to expand...

I'm glad I'm not the only one! I just leave her be and she settles herself, just as your LO does. Sometimes Charlotte will do it again around 4am or 5am, so I sympathize.


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## Noelle610

mrsbeano said:


> Will have a proper read soon but had an awful night last night. 4 wakings and hee would only settle after 2/3 oz on the first 3. I don't get it? Sttn for 3 nights last week & then stopped and worse than before.
> 
> The only thing I can think of is that he's getting thirsty because of a stuffy nose. Oh well, who needs sleep ay?

Yuck, sorry you had a rough night. It might be the stuffy nose. Do you run a humidifier in his room?


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## Shadowy Lady

Lysh - hugs <3 3:30 is way too early. How does your LO nap during the day?

Nicky - welcome to our little gathering here :D I'm transitioned Sofia outta the Woombie finally and it only took one night of fussing for 1.5 hours or so. We started with sleep though then tackled naps...

Aliss - ughhh I hear you on the weather. -30deg this morning in Ottawa and of course that's not factoring windchill which we get plenty of :/ How far is Alex' room from yours?

AngelUK - I know I'm getting greedy too! I just *know* Sofia doesn't need that midnight snack...I mean we've reduced it to 2oz no way she's hungry for that...after midnight she typically sleeps till 5-6 am.

Mrsbeano - aaaaawww that would so annoy me...sttn and then back to worse. Though I must say we went from sttn between 2-3.5 months to the mess we were in so I totally understand the feeling.

So I didn't do the dreamfeed last night mainly coz she woke up earlier. I had told DH to give her a dreamfeed at 11:30 pm but she woke up at like 11:25 pm :/ so he let her fuss a bit and then gave her the 2oz at 11:45. She then proceeded to sleep till 5 am, had a feed and then down again till 7 am....7am is early for her but she had pooped (yay). 

I'm still not sure about this random 2oz at midnight. She gets VERY annoyed if she doesn't get it but how could she need it so bad when it's only 2oz??? I think I'm gonna ride it out and enjoy the 5 hour sleep between 12-5 am and then try weaning her again in 2-3 weeks. 

Btw, I came across this article:

https://www.troublesometots.com/what-you-need-to-know-about-sleeping-through-the-night-part-3/

I read all three parts and feel kinda better about Sofia's sleep. Based on this she's actually doing good as she always goes down awake and goes to sleep by herself. The article suggest that's the biggest challenge with babies. They also advise night weaning after 6 months. The rest of the writer's philosophy agrees with Ferber. What do you guys think?


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## Noelle610

Shadowy Lady, I think it's fine to proceed with the small feeding in the middle of the night if it means you get more sleep for whatever reason. Sofia's still pretty young.

I really like the Troublesome Tots website! It gives some really great advice. With night weaning, I'm not sure. For us it was wonderful at 6 months, but I think that was mainly because of reflux. Charlotte was having a lot of milk overnight and essentially the feedings were causing more night wakings - she was waking because she of reflux/gas/wet diaper/etc. When we gently encouraged her to get her calories during the day, it worked wonders. All of the sources I've read are all over the board on this. Ferber recommends 3/4 months while Weissbluth ("Healthy Sleep Habits, Happy Child") says two night feedings until 6 months and one night feeding until 9 months or even a year is very normal. He says that if the baby falls straight back to sleep afterward, it's not an issue. I tend to trust Weissbluth a bit more on this issue and the total night sleep needed (I think Ferber's numbers are super low) since his research is more current on these aspects.


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## Noelle610

Here are the books I keep referring to, if anyone is interested.

https://www.amazon.com/Solve-Your-Childs-Sleep-Problems/dp/0743201639/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1358953381&sr=8-1&keywords=solving+your+childs+sleep+problems

https://www.amazon.com/Healthy-Sleep-Habits-Happy-Child/dp/0449004023/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1358953425&sr=1-1&keywords=healthy+sleep+habits+happy+child

This one is good for moms of "special" babies like mine :)

https://www.amazon.com/Your-Fussy-Baby-Marc-Weissbluth/dp/0345463005/ref=sr_1_5?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1358953446&sr=1-5&keywords=weissbluth


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## Shadowy Lady

Noelle - I agree! I like Ferber's method for sleep association and it worked wonders for us (and everyone i know). But it's impossible to get 3/4 months old to sleep through w/o feed. I thought I could do it since Sofia sttn at a younger age but I guess things changed :D

I have the Healthy Sleep Habit,...book and started it but never finished. It's written a bit more "wordy" than Ferber's book. But based on what you say I tend to agree more with his philosophy on age of night weaning :)


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## Sunnie1984

Hi Girls! 

Shadowy Lady - For Seren, I found that the dream feed made her worse. This was at about 9 weeks, so I don't know how relevant it is.

She wouldn't sleep in her pram when we were out for dinner one night (very unusual) and ate loads. So when we got home at about 9pm, she went down no problem. 

My DH refused to give her a dream feed at 11, as she'd only just gone to sleep. So we went to bed, I was convinced she'd wake at about midnight for a feed, as she's missed the dream feed, but she never did and STTN. So we dropped the dream feed, and she STTN even when she went to bed at 7:30pm as usual. 

Noelle - Seren does this too. I don't know what causes it, but I don't go in to her unless is turns into real crying, as I find it wakes her up, and otherwise she'd just settle. 

Megan - sorry you have teething on board, it sucks! 

We are having a weird time over here. I think she's over the teething. She's STTN aside from a wake up at 4am and 5am which last about 5 mins each, and she goes back to sleep. 

But our day times have gone astray completely. She has cried all morning for the last two mornings. 

She seems to be holding onto her wind, and not burping. This is usually a sign of teething, but I'm not sure she still it. She constantly has her fingers in her mouth, but I think it's to try to get the wind out :haha:

She won't sleep in the cot for more than 30 mins, and after that first nap she has horrendous wind until she naps in the pram (which is on an angle) and then she is all smiles. 

Can reflux reappear? It's obviously not as bad as it was originally as there's no projectile vomiting, but it just seems strange that naps in her cot seem to bother her. Although night times in the cot seem to be ok :shrug:

So I've made use of our Jamie Oliver cookbooks to prop one end of the cot a little :haha: So I'll see if it makes a difference for her naps tomorrow. 

It's a mystery and I have no idea what's going on! :dohh:

xx


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## Noelle610

Shadowy Lady said:


> Noelle - I agree! I like Ferber's method for sleep association and it worked wonders for us (and everyone i know). But it's impossible to get 3/4 months old to sleep through w/o feed. I thought I could do it since Sofia sttn at a younger age but I guess things changed :D
> 
> I have the Healthy Sleep Habit,...book and started it but never finished. It's written a bit more "wordy" than Ferber's book. But based on what you say I tend to agree more with his philosophy on age of night weaning :)

After reading his book multiple times, I've come to the conclusion that the reason Ferber thinks babies can STTN from 3/4 months old without a feed is that he defines "through the night" as like 8 hours. Current research shows most babies need between 10 and 13 hours of night slepe to prevent becoming overtired, so his definition is kind of irrelevent now. I used to attend a lactation support group and the lactation consultant who ran it said it's reasonable to expect babies in the 4-6 month age group to wake 6 hours after bedtime for a feed and then every 3 hours subsequently. That seems way more reasonable to me.

Yes, the Healthy Sleep Habits book is super wordy! You don't need to read the whole thing. Just read the chapter for on babies 5 months old plus. It's really insightful!


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## Noelle610

Sunnie, sounds like you are having good nights! 4am/5am is a very normal time for a night waking if you're gong to have one - babies enter a light sleep cycle at this time and often have a hard time re-settling. 

We've certainly gone through phases with reflux, but if your LO is fine at night in her cot and she's still having night feeds, it's unlikely that's the issue. How long is she awake before you put her down for a nap? Could she be fighting it because she's overtired?


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## Sunnie1984

I don't think she is overtired, she's been going to nap a little bit earlier than usual because she's catching up from not STTN recently, but she always goes down as soon as she is slightly tired, and she has really obvious sleep cues. 

I have no idea, but I'll try putting her down a little earlier if there is no change tomorrow, thanks!


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## Boo44

Hi girls just checking in! Do any of you have any advice re coughing in the night? Jack is slowly improving but has been left with this chesty cough and a slight wheeze (he's been started on more antibiotics today). The last few nights his cough has bothered him. He always seems to cough just when he's gone down on and off, I never need to go to him, he's still asleep. Then each morning it's around 4am he starts coughing and last night the poor thing coughed for 1.5hrs!! I went in twice to give him water and comfort him and he was never actually awake! But unsettled obviously. So any bright ideas for this?

Thanks :)


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## Noelle610

Boo, Charlotte does the sleep coughing thing too. Have you tried a humidifier? I've found it helps, but doesn't eliminate it totally.


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## AngelUK

Humidifier is a good idea as well as maybe a vapour diffuser? We have the calpol one though I think that might be more for stuffy noses. Also I would maybe try and elevate his head a bit. We have wedges which helps with reflux too but if you don't, then maybe put a phonebook under each of the head-end legs of the cot? Mind you not too much or he will then end up as a crumpled heap at the end of the cot. :) Hope he gets better soon :)


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## Boo44

Thanks! We don't have a humidifier but I'll try raising the cot slightly xx


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## Noelle610

A humidifier is definitely worth getting if your baby gets a lot of colds. It's been a life saver for us!


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## MrsPear

Can I rejoin your group now??!!!!! I tried so hard to take sleep deprivation in my stride but I'm fit to burst now!!! All I can say is aaaaaaaarrrrrgghhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!! Joni's sleep is as bad as ever if not worse, i hold her more than 50% of the night every single night, some nights never put her down AT ALL, I spend hours every evening trying to get her to sleep (she is screaming now, oh is with her, definitely a 'walk away moment for me), she just WILL NOT SLEEP. I blame separation anxiety in part.

It's just all so depressing. I have totally stopped reading about anything sleep related now, even sleep threads on here (except this one which I'm coming back to because it is more 'please give me strength' than please give me advice lol) because it's all so random and nothing works.

Eta...oh isback now so I had to cut this short, will go back and read the updates when I get a chance xxx


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## Noelle610

Hi MrsPear, I was wondering where you had gone! I'm sorry to see you back, however, without your report that Joni is now STTN. 

I'm not sure if it gives you any hope, but we saw big improvement around the 8 month mark. I think it was a combination of an increase in solids, Charlotte wearing herself out during the day with crawling and scooting and just her growing out of some of her previous sleep issues.


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## Boo44

Noelle was Charlotte born on 23rd May? I think she's exactly 1 month older than Jack, it's his 7 month birthday today :) His present to me was having some random internal alarm which wakes him up exactly 30 mins after he falls asleep for every single nap. No matter where he is including his cot, and no matter if he self-settled beautifully to start the nap! Happy days lol xx


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## Noelle610

Yes ma'am - May 23rd here!! I can't believe she's 8 months old today.

Oh my gosh, I hate those 30 minute naps. They're the worst! Hopefully this isn't a new pattern for him. We've been through those phases and they always pass quickly :)


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## Aimee1003

Lysh- I don't know how you are doing the early morning wake ups. I can't even imagine waking for the day. mine woke up at 530 this morning and I thought that was bad.

Mrs Pear - that sounds horrible too. you have to hold your little 1 all night? Wow.

Well an update for us is that last Friday Coleton started sleeping better. he is now waking only 1 to 2* a night. I am actually getting 4-5 hour sleep at a time. It is like heaven. I have been so so so excited. I can so do a few wake ups. I think his was developmental. Saturday he started pulling up. Sunday he waved bye bye and started using his pincer grip perfectly to feed himself and he started scooting backwards. all of this in 1 weekend


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## socitycourty

well luckily my LO slept ok last night as I was having horrible anxiety attacks, and unable to eat, I felt like crap.

I did hold her all night but I didn't care, I just wanted to have peace and quiet, plus cuddling her does help me at times with my stress.
I am hoping that I can get my anxiety under control and not feel awful again tonight.


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## Shadowy Lady

ok guys i'm sooo confused! Sofia's been waking up at around 11 pm for the past 3 nights fussing and fussing. Here's the situation:

1. She's not in pain coz Advil doesn't help
2. She does not have an ear infection
3. She's not hungry as she either only drink s 2oz or so or if I pick her up to feed her she starts smiling at me and wanting to play...

this goes on for an hour or so with either DH or I going in every few minutes to check on her till she falls asleep. It's starting to really get to me :/ I don't know what the issue is coz she always self soothes. I do not rock her to sleep, she doesn't use a pacifier, has a humidifier in her room and wears a super snuggly and warm sleep suit. Her naps are also amazing (3-4 hours every day in 1-2 hour increments).

What am I doing wrong? the only thing i can think of is that last thing i do as part if her bed time routine is feeding her and so sometimes (not always) she falls asleep as she eats.

Any advice is appreciated :)


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## Sunnie1984

Shadowy lady - Seren was doing this until a few nights ago. 

I think it's just the sleep regression, or developmental. Sofia is pretty much the same age as my DD. 

As long as she's not crying we don't go into her and she babbles herself back to sleep after an hour or so. 

Sorry, no practical tips, but eventually Seren just started sleeping through again.


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## Noelle610

Aimee, so happy you're having better nights! Socity, I'm glad your night was okay, too.

Shadowy Lady, I do wonder if Sunnie is right and it's developmental. I'm not sure if you follow the Wonder Weeks, but the fussy phase for WW26 starts around 23 weeks. When Charlotte has long night wakings and wants to play, it's usually a developmental thing and they pass quickly.


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## Aimee1003

Shadowy- Sounds heavenly to me. lol. What's the problem? Great naps, self soothing, only 1 wake up!!!! What I would give for that to be my reality.

After 5 days of "better" sleep, C was up a lot last night. His longest sleep stretch was 2.5 hrs! I am tired but the 5 nights have renewed my hope that one day he will sleep well again! I was almost to the hopeless phase...


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## bananaz

*Shadowy* - I agree that it sounds developmental, so I don't think there's necessarily anything you're doing wrong. Elsie also added a long 11pm waking to her nightly lineup at around 5 months. I tried a million things to get rid of it but in the end I think she just grew out of it on her own. Anyway, if Sofia is just fussing and not really upset I would probably leave her to it :shrug:

*Aimee* - :hugs: Sorry about the rough night but I'm glad you're hanging in there. Hopefully he'll be back to better sleep again tonight.


Things here have continued to be hit and miss, but on the whole I can't complain and I've managed to stick to only one night feeding which I'm glad about. I still have no idea what's going on with her other random wakings but at least for the past few nights she's been able to resettle herself so that's awesome. 

It seems like she's going through some kind of intense wonder week thing right now - she's nursing almost every hour, doesn't want to be put down but also doesn't want to be held, won't eat any solids, having a melt down every 5 minutes, etc. I think I'm just going to leave her sleep alone for a while and see if she falls into any kind of pattern before I actively try to get rid of that feeding again. In the meanwhile I need a stiff drink :coffee:


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## Noelle610

Bananaz... Wonder Week 37! It's a big one. Charlotte's been fussy/clingy too.


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## MrsPear

Ahhh bananaz I'm sorry to see you're still struggling with sleep too. I'll shout you a stiff drink and I'll make mine a double!! It's awesome she settled herself, I hope that continues for you.

We had a bad night last night. Oh is off work this week so he is helping me out. Joni screamed most of the evening, I don't think it's pain it's separation because she stops when I pick her up. Anyway, we were in bed before 9, it just feels pointless staying up to hear her screaming. She was in her cot from 9.30 to 11.30 then I had several goes putting her down in the cot or between us after that, but eventually just held her the rest of the night. It's really taking it's toll on us both but I'm trying my best to keep calm and just ride it out. 

Xxx


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## bananaz

Noelle610 said:


> Bananaz... Wonder Week 37! It's a big one. Charlotte's been fussy/clingy too.

Yep, the behavior started right on time at 32 weeks and it's only getting worse :wacko: And we still have two more weeks to go!


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## libbylou

:coffee: Sleep effing sucks. LO got sick again 2 days ago. Luckily it's not a really bad cold, but its still disrupted her sleep and made her even worse (if thats possible). She's waking and crying every half hour or so unless she's in bed with us in which case she's nursing nonstop and squirming around so I pretty much don't sleep.
My doctor put me on Zoloft. So far all its done is destroy my appetite (good way to lose a few lbs??), make me want to puke and possible increase my insomnia.
My mum was here for a few days and I fought with her nonstop. She kept trying to "help" by going in to settle LO when she was crying at night. Guess what, it doesn't "help". LO gets pissed if DH goes in to settle her instead of me, and my mum going in just made her downright hysterical which meant I had to step in and spend even longer settling her than if I had just gone in myself in the first place. I flat out told her NOT to go into LO's room and she did several times anyway...at one point she tried to take LO out of my arms while she was screaming hysterically and I was yelling at my mum to get out of the nursery and let me settle her.
Oh and I threw my back out again. 

Gah. Now she's up from her 20 min nap...again. Her naps have sucked all week. I could seriously cry.

Will come back to check everyone's updates when I get a minute reprieve.


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## Noelle610

bananaz said:


> Noelle610 said:
> 
> 
> Bananaz... Wonder Week 37! It's a big one. Charlotte's been fussy/clingy too.
> 
> Yep, the behavior started right on time at 32 weeks and it's only getting worse :wacko: And we still have two more weeks to go!Click to expand...

Same! I guess 36 weeks gestationally is the peak, which is where we are this week. Certainly looking foward to it being over.


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## Noelle610

So sorry Libby. That all sounds rough.

On the meds... Zoloft make me loose my appetite at first as well. I also felt really "wired" for the first few days, that's the only way I can really explain it. BUT after 2 weeks I felt like an entirely new person. Give it time. The side effects did fade. If it continues giving you insomnia, which I've heard it does for a select few, tell your doctor and ask for Trazadone - I take a low, low dose and it works wonders on my insomnia. It won't make you feel "drunk" in the morning like Ambien or Lunesta and you will be alert enough to respond to your baby. Let me know how it goes - message me if you have questions on this!


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## Aimee1003

Libby- I am not a fan of the SSRIs like Zoloft. It does work well for some people but it has a lot of side effects. I personally like the SNRIs ,specifically Cymbalta. It works well for depression and anxiety;although, I take it just for postnatal insomnia. If you take it for anxiety, it works very quickly within a day or 2. For depression, it takes up to 2 weeks to be effective. It is also very safe for breastfeeding women. Just a thought in case Zoloft doesn't work for you.


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## Shadowy Lady

Sunnie - she did just come outta sleep regression though. We went from sttn to 3-4 night waking back to 1 and now up again to 2 :/ You may be right about the developmental thing.

Noelle - No but I've heard of it. She's exactly 5 month today so I'm hopin this too shall pass :D

Aimee - I'm sorry I know your situation is worse *hugs* What bugs me is inconsistency here. Like never knowing whether one gets 3 hours of sleep or 5 or 7 :/ 

Bananaz - you're getting me scared off ww37 now -_- does Elsie usually want to be left alone or does she play with mommy most of the times?

Naps were good today again. She woke up at 7:00 am this morning so I put her for a nap at 8:30 since we had Salsa Baby at 9:30. I nursed her, put her down awake and drowsy and she fell asleep within 10 mins. We went to class and then to a friends for lunch. There again I fed her at 1:30 pm, put her on my friends bed and left. I went back upstairs 10 mins later and she was fast asleep.

I'm gonna try hard and not let her fall asleep at the breast tonight and see if that makes a difference. I'm reading Sleep Sense now (that Libby referred to) and thinking that may be the issue. Perhaps I'll leave the side lamp on so I can tell if she's asleep...if that doesn't work I'll leave the last feed to DH and bottle...


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## bananaz

Shadowy Lady said:


> Bananaz - you're getting me scared off ww37 now -_- does Elsie usually want to be left alone or does she play with mommy most of the times?

Elsie's always required a lot attention and interaction but since she started crawling I've been able to get her to entertain herself for brief periods of time as long as I'm nearby. At the moment though she just keeps fussing and trying to climb up my leg, and then when I'm holding her she usually tries to climb onto my head (in the process hitting me in the face and jabbing her feet into my side :dohh:). Not so fun.

Good luck with the new bedtime routine! Even if she does fall asleep at the breast you can always wake her up a bit before you put her in her crib.


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## libbylou

Bananaz - sometimes I think Elsie and Everette were twins separated at birth :haha: Everette is much the same with the clinginess, hanging on my leg and crying...fun stuff.

Noelle & Aimee - thanks for the tips on the meds. I'll wait out a few weeks on the Zoloft and see how I fare (dr did tell me it would be 2-4 weeks to see results). I'm hoping I don't need anything for the insomnia because we do still cosleep part time with LO and I don't know how comfortable I'd be with that.

Aimee - glad to hear Coleton gave you some good nights and hope last night was an exception! LO's sleep was worse than usual when she did a bunch of developmental stuff at once (she was the same age as Coleton)

Shadowy - could be developmental? LO started doing the MOTN parties when she hit a bunch of developmental stuff at once. I hear you on the inconsistency frustration. Some nights LO will do great and have 2-3 wakings and some nights she's up constantly. 

MrsPear - sorry to hear you guys had a rough night :(


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## Noelle610

Libby, probably smart thinking on the insomnia meds. I did have two friends I met through my moms group that had postpartum insomnia and the Zoloft was enough for them - relieved their anxiety so they could sleep. Hope it does the same for you. As Aimee mentioned, everyone is different, so you just have to find what works for you with your doctor. Wishing you relaxation and rest tonight!


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## Boo44

Well Jack's bottom two teeth are both poking through finally, at the same time! Explains why he's been sad and fussy and refusing to nap or waking after every single nap of 30 mins. Although he's been coughing each night recently an unsettled, I almost feel a sense of relief that the teething has started and we can get it over with and just deal with whatever happens. It's almost easier than worrying what teething will be like and how it will affect him!


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## Boo44

Noelle and bananaz, you are also making me nervous for WW37 if it starts at 33! Jack is 30 weeks so we could just get over his teething palava and then hit this! Eek! Hope Charlotte and Elsie settle soon :)

Aimee fingers crossed Coleton returns to those good 5 nights, I'm pleased he gave you some hope lol!!

Shadowy - sounds like Sofia is an amazing napper, she could teach Jack a thing or two!

Libby - hope the Zoloft work for you soon xx


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## bananaz

libbylou said:


> Bananaz - sometimes I think Elsie and Everette were twins separated at birth :haha: Everette is much the same with the clinginess, hanging on my leg and crying...fun stuff.


I know! Whenever I read about Everette's "high needs" antics I just want to give you a hug and tell you I feel your pain, haha.


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## Shadowy Lady

Boo - awwww, sweat that the teeth are finally out. Hoping you get some rest now mama :)

Libby - I'm tempted to take meds too but been postponing it. I take Melatonin most nights and it doesn't work great but it does something. I'm no longer anxious but more feel like I'm forgotten how to sleep :/ Hoping it works great for you. Keep us updated...

So the keeping Sofia awake on the boob plan failed IMO. I kept the side lamp on and tickled her and whatnot but she was still asleep. I finally lifted her more straight before putting her down which made her grown and fuss and half open her eyes but that was it :( By the time I made it the living room and looked at the monitor she was asleep....I'm freaking out now about her waking up soon and of course DH has his martial art class tonight and won't be in till 10:30-11.

ughhhhh I think I'm gonna switch to bottle for last feed of the night. Hoping that's less tempting to fall sleep on. You guys got any experience on this?


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## x Michelle x

Hi ladies :) i posted on this thread a while back about my rubbish sleeper... Well things got real bad over Christmas....he sttn 12 hours one night, then got a cold, an ear infection and cut a molar all at the same time... Sleep went back to square 1.... Once he got better (but still teething) he was up 3/4 times a night... Last night he slept 6:30-6am... Yes, almost 12 hours! Might have been a one off but i know he can, and i couldn't believe it when i looked at the clock and it said 6:05! What I'm trying to say is hang in there ladies :hugs:


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## MrsPear

I am dreading this ww37 from the things that you have all put!! Michelle your lo has really been through it recently hasn't he!! I'm sorry it ruined his sleep, and I hope last night wasn't a one off. Good uck for tonight  

Shadowy I have no experience but yes maybe she will stay awake better with a bottle... Who knows. They are so random you never know what has caused a good or bed effect I don't think. But I would try it, its definitely worth a shot.

Xx


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## MrsPear

We are on holiday this week but because Joni's sleep is so crap anyway I don't think there's a difference. Im going to ask oh if we can cut short and leave today because I just want my own bed. Has anyone got any experience of how long it lasts when a baby won't be put down atall? She did do 3 hours overall in her cot but it was with multiple resettlings until we gave up. Oh brought her downstairs at 4:30 but I was to stressed to sleep anymore. I know it could be worse but I'm so uncomfortable trying to hold her safely and I have to sit up, I haven't slept more than an hour in literally weeks, I'm going to crack soon!!


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## Noelle610

MrsPear, I'm sorry. That sounds rough. I bet Joni sleeps better at home. I'm sorry I don't have any great advice.

Ladies, if it helps, WW37 has been odd for us, but not terrible. Charlotte has definitely been more clingy (which I sort of like because she's not a cuddly baby LOL!). She's fought naps because she's excited about her new skills (crawling!). Night sleep hasn't been awful. We had some wakings when she would sit up and not be able to lay back down or crawl arounding her crib, but all in all it hasn't been unmanagable.


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## Shadowy Lady

I got like 2 hours of sleep last night :/ Sofia woke up again at 11:30 (of course) and DH went to feed her 2oz of ebm. She then proceeded to whine until 1:15 am!!! At that point I got up and went and fed her and she went straight to sleep. Odd thing I tried the exact same strategy the nights before I she wasn't interested.

After that though I was wide awake and anxiety kicked in a baaaad way. I had a splitting headache and shivers all over. Then ended up throwing up at 6:30 am :'( Sofia woke up at around 6:45 am. I fed her and we both then went to sleep until around 8:30 am...

DH and I decided we go back to giving her a bigger bottle at 11-12 since she seems to be back at wanting it and worry about weaning off after she's 6 months. I'm gonna try to go to bed at the same time as her tonight but right now I'm pretty much a mess :/


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## Noelle610

Shadowy Lady, sorry for your rough night. The long waking does sound developmental to me.

I totally understand your anxiety. Would Charlotte pulls stuff like that I find it so hard to drif back to sleep! Being sleep deprived and anxious does a number on me physically, too.

Don't worry about night weaning for now - I think it will be much easier when Sofia's established on solids (I don't think she's started yet, if I'm remembering correctly).


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## Aimee1003

Shadowy and Mrs. Pear- 5 to 8 months have been a roller coaster ride for sleep. I believe it is mostly developmental and something you just have to ride out. 5-6 months was insane. 6-7 was ok but not perfect. 7-8 months was the worst for us. He just hit 8 months and the last week has been better. Hang in there!!

Bananaz and Libby- I feel for ya. I will be praying that thid phase passes quickly.

Update: C went back to 2 wake ups last night. yay! That means I got 7 hrs of sleep. Not perfect but functionable. People at work have noticed, telling me that I look like I slept better. lol. Wow I must have looked rough there for a couple weeks. Also starting last Friday Coleton is able to go to sleep on his own at bedtime. He had done this prior but the last month when I lay him down he cries for hours. Now he is back to me nursing him to drowsy then laying him down and he rolls over and goes to sleep no problem. I feel like I have my baby back. I think we must have hit wonder week 37 early. Not saying we are out of it completely but I think we are at the end.


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## libbylou

This insomnia combined with bad sleeping baby is kicking my ass big time.
Last night I went to bed at 9:30...and lay there staring at the back of my eyelids until 11:30 when LO woke up. I nursed her and put her back down, she was asleep by 12....then she woke up at 12:45 and refused to settle. An hour later I finally got her settled in our bed. By 2am I was still lying there, not sleeping. Finally fell asleep but woke constantly and would just lie there...I feel friggin awful

Aimee - yay Coleton! Funny how even one good night can make you feel and look like a new person! There isn't enough makeup in this world to cover the bags under my eyes right now :haha:

Shadowy - so sorry about your crap night :( I hate hate hate those middle of the night wakings when they refuse to go back to sleep no matter what you do

MrsPear - hope you can get a break soon! Not enough hours of sleep is bad enough, but when its broken up into tiny little chunks its awful :(


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## bananaz

libbylou said:


> This insomnia combined with bad sleeping baby is kicking my ass big time.
> Last night I went to bed at 9:30...and lay there staring at the back of my eyelids until 11:30 when LO woke up. I nursed her and put her back down, she was asleep by 12....then she woke up at 12:45 and refused to settle. An hour later I finally got her settled in our bed. By 2am I was still lying there, not sleeping. Finally fell asleep but woke constantly and would just lie there...I feel friggin awful

Ugh, I'm sorry, how terrible. Just anxiety stuff? I hope you get more rest tonight. 


Well I think I may have just inadvertently done CIO with Elsie for her afternoon nap. I first tried nursing and then shush-patting her to sleep but she kept fighting me so finally I decided to put her in her crib and give her ten minutes to try and settle herself. Before the 10-minute mark she seemed to be calming down so I didn't go in, but then a little while later she started crying. I waited a couple minutes and she went quiet, and 5 minutes after that the crying resumed. This off-and-on thing continued for almost a half hour.

I feel bad for leaving her in there that long but I just didn't know what to do, and I didn't want to run in there and bother her if she was trying to go to sleep on her own. Hopefully she gets a decent nap in spite of being upset...


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## socitycourty

Libby I hope you're doing ok. I have had a horrible week with my anxiety and my phobia and I'm just at the end of my rope. I can't eat or sleep.


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## Noelle610

socitycourty said:


> Libby I hope you're doing ok. I have had a horrible week with my anxiety and my phobia and I'm just at the end of my rope. I can't eat or sleep.

Hi honey - are you seeing anyone to talk about this? A therapist or your doctor? I avoided it for sooooo long and now I wish I had gone sooner!

At it's worst I was sleeping maybe 2 hours a night (broken) and eating very little. I was 135 pre-pregnancy and got down to 120. Not in a healthy way, either.


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## Aimee1003

Libby and Socity- How horrible! I know how awful that feeling is. Weeks 3, 4, and 5 were my insomnia - laden times. C had colic and the stress of that combined with newborn wake ups caused it. Medicine really has helped. I went ahead and stayed on medicine even after the insomnia cleared up to make sure I didn't get stressed like that again. Good thing since the last month he went back to waking every 2 hrs. I bet the insomnia would have returned otherwise. Libby I hope the meds kick in quickly. Socity-U need to call ur doctor. There is no reason to suffer when getting help is just a phone call away!

Coleton had another good night. 7:15-1:30 and 2:30-6. Yay!!! Last 2 nights he has had a long wake up where he is really hungry and nurses 1-1.5 straight! He even took both breasts last night!!! He usually only takes one side.

Bananaz- lol. Ur accidental early bedtime stories keep me entertained. What a wonderful addition the accidental cio nap story is!!


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## bananaz

Aimee1003 said:


> Coleton had another good night. 7:15-1:30 and 2:30-6. Yay!!! Last 2 nights he has had a long wake up where he is really hungry and nurses 1-1.5 straight! He even took both breasts last night!!! He usually only takes one side.
> 
> Bananaz- lol. Ur accidental early bedtime stories keep me entertained. What a wonderful addition the accidental cio nap story is!!

I'm glad you had a good night! Elsie has been nursing like crazy for the past couple weeks too. It's like she's a newborn again! Maybe there's a big 8 month growth spurt?

And I'm also glad we can provide some entertainment. I seem to be pretty good at accidental parenting. I should probably start saving up for Elsie's therapy bills now :haha:


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## Shadowy Lady

Lillby and Socity - hugs ladies <3 insomnia and anxiety suck big time! I'm a victim too and it's so hard to see light at the end if the tunnel.

Aimee - glad both u and C are doing better. Hope it continues for u guys :)

Last night was as gas as the night before except I got 3 hous of sleep instead of 1.5 :/ not enough to make me feel better though of course. She just wants to be up from 11:30-1:00 am and whether we feed her or not doesn't seem to make ant difference. She doesn't cry even...just talks to herself. She actually does cry when we go to her though which is why we let her be. DH can sleep through her talking but I cannot :(

She's learning to sit btw these days and is even more talkative than before. Nit sure if that's why her sleep is messed up coz her naps are still good. I'm staying at my parents tonight. I'm so sleep deprived that I gave in to a night away from Sofia :(


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## bananaz

Shadowy Lady said:


> Last night was as gas as the night before except I got 3 hous of sleep instead of 1.5 :/ not enough to make me feel better though of course. She just wants to be up from 11:30-1:00 am and whether we feed her or not doesn't seem to make ant difference. She doesn't cry even...just talks to herself. She actually does cry when we go to her though which is why we let her be. DH can sleep through her talking but I cannot :(
> 
> She's learning to sit btw these days and is even more talkative than before. Nit sure if that's why her sleep is messed up coz her naps are still good. I'm staying at my parents tonight. I'm so sleep deprived that I gave in to a night away from Sofia :(


Elsie started having long wakings at 11pm right around that age too. I still don't really know what was up but they went away on their own after a while.

Anyway, don't feel bad about taking a night off! Having a well-rested mama is a good thing for Sofia :)


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## Noelle610

Same as Bananaz! We had that too and it passed, then started again around 7 months for like two weeks. So weird, but I'm pretty sure it's developmental.


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## socitycourty

i'm seeing my therapist on tuesday.....i really need some help.
:hugs:


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## Noelle610

So glad you are going!!! Take care of yourself :)


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## libbylou

Last night was better. LO went down about 8...woke up at 9 and cried for a few mins then resettled herself. Woke up about 12, cried for a few mins, resettled herself. Up at 2 for a feed then right back down to sleep. Woke a few times between 2 and 4:30 but resettled herself. Came to bed with us at 4:30 and actually shared the bed nicely (instead of either nursing nonstop or crawling around crying because she can't find a comfy spot)
I didn't get a ton of sleep, but my insomnia wasn't as bad last night 
At the recommendation of a few friends I'm taking my Zoloft in the morning from now on instead of at night which should help with the Zoloft related insomnia

Bananaz - yeah its mostly anxiety related and also not knowing when LO will wake as she is so inconsistent so I just lie there thinking "whats the point of going to sleep if she'll be up in 20 mins..."
Don't worry about the naptime...LO often has naptimes like that. I'll leave her to fuss for a bit, then she seems to drop off...then starts crying for a few mins..but I'm afraid to go in because she's not hysterical and I know she'll take longer to settle if I go in when she's winding herself down

Socity - I'm not eating right now either...the Zoloft is making me feel like poop and I can't eat, or sleep. I'm glad you're going to see your therapist...you can't hang on much longer as you are going, you'll crash and burn and you won't be able to take care of LO

Aimee - glad Coleton had another good night! I bet he's having a growth spurt (or possibly teething? LO nurses constantly when she's teething)

Shadowy - my DH sleeps through everything too! Sometimes LO will have a good hour or more where she'll cry out, then go to sleep...then 5 mins later cry out...and so on. DH sleeps right through but I'm wide awake the whole time


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## MrsPear

Socitycourty, big hugs to you :hugs: It's just horrible to feel that way, so demoralising and isolating. I hope that speaking to someone can at least let a bit of that tension out. Sometimes with a baby I find anxiety builds and builds and there is no let up, more and more just tumbles on to make you feel worse :hugs::hugs: Thinking of you.

Libbylou, glad you had a better night, still sounds a bit of an ordeal though. Hope you have a better-better night soon. :flower:

Awww Shadowy, poor you. It sounds like you really need that night away, you arent getting enough sleep at all. No doubt you feel really guilty though, it's like a vicious cycle isn't it, guilty whatever you do. I think you're doing the right thing and Sofia needs her mummy to have had a few extra hours sleep so you can be less exhausted in the day. 

Bananaz I did that sort of 'CIO' thing with Joni the other day. She was sort of crying on and off for 40 minutes but I kept leaving it because after crying, she would start babbling and I thought, she can't be that upset if she's got time to chat in between? Then she did fall asleep but I felt guilty as she had been crying. I don't think it's CIO really...your Elsie is 8 months now and you would know when you 'needed' to be in there and when she will be able to settle herself. I think you did the right thing!!

Aimee that sounds like a brilliant night, do you feel refreshed for it? I find that when you get used to crap sleep, even a single good night makes a huge difference.


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## Noelle610

I take Zoloft in the morning because I was scared it would have an effect on my insomnia. So far, so good.

It's crazy how many of us with bad or formerly bad sleepers suffer from postpartum insomnia. Having kids like this must really cause anxiety and mess up your circadian rhythms! Are they trying to kill us?!:haha:


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## bananaz

Noelle610 said:


> I take Zoloft in the morning because I was scared it would have an effect on my insomnia. So far, so good.
> 
> It's crazy how many of us with bad or formerly bad sleepers suffer from postpartum insomnia. Having kids like this must really cause anxiety and mess up your circadian rhythms! Are they trying to kill us?!:haha:

Yeah, I think it's the unpredictability + the hormones, and in my case also just general anxiety. It's gotten better for me recently though - I haven't had to take melatonin or Benadryl at night in over a week, which has to be a record! Going back to sleep after LO's 3-4am waking is still borderline impossible most nights but at least I sleep pretty well up until then.

I took Zoloft a few years ago for anxiety and depression during a difficult time in my life and it made a big difference for me, but it took a couple of weeks to notice a real difference. I would love love love to go back on it or something similar but I think I'm going to hold off until LO is weaned. I'm glad you ladies are being proactive about your mental health; dealing with high needs, unpredictable babies is hard enough even when you're at your best!


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## Shadowy Lady

so I ended up sleeping over at our next door neighbour's place last night. I just could not be too far away from Sofia. We did her night time routine and she was out by 7:15 pm. I hung out with DH a bit and then went to our neighbour's place at 8 pm.

I slept ok there. The room was a lot warmer than I'm used to (I like my room cool) so I woke up 5-6 times but back down right away. Woke up in a much better mood at 6 am and just walked back home and started pumping (hahaha). Sofia woke up at 7 am and we were hanging out till DH woke up. He told me she had slept till 2:15 am, woke up then for a quick bottle and went straight down till 7 am when she woke again. So no middle of night craziness!! 

I mean it's great!! I sure hope that we have seen the end of the tough nights...or she knew I wouldn't be there and she should sleep, hahah! Either way I feel pretty great today. Off to go jogging and then I need to clean the house.

Have a great Sunday ladies :)


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## MrsPear

Yay Shadowy! So glad it was a success. After one good night I always feel amazing. Hope it continues!! xx


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## daneuse27

Just found this thread! Hope no one minds if I join. My happy, well behaved little girl went from being a good sleeper to recently (if you've seen any of my posts, I know Noelle has) to sleeping MAYBE 10 hours total in a 24 hour period if Im lucky. This usually consists of a solid night sleep with 1 to 2 wakings at the end, and then no naps during the day.
She will literally go 12 hours without a solid nap and its driving me insane. Whenever I try to get her down, she ends up wanting to keep nursing. The attempt goes on for 3 to 4 hours and turns into more of a cluster feed than a nap! so no break for me, whatsoever :cry:

Im going to start solids soon, and Im hoping this will help. Maybe the afternoon clusterfeed will turn into an actual nap if she feels full. Crossing my fingers!

Last night, she slept 10.5 hours ...BUT woke up several times with gas pains. There was a lot of air passing. Id put a paci in her mouth each time, rub her belly and shed fall back asleep. If it werent for her gassiness, Im sure shed sleep through 12 hours! I take her to a chiropractor once a week AND give her gripe water that used to work, but it doesnt seem to be helping. It seems to just be getting worse. :dohh:


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## Noelle610

Hi daneuse27! Welcome. I'm sorry you're having a tough time. 

My little girl had a lot of digestive issues - reflux, gas, you name it. It was awful. Learning to sit unaided and starting solids really helped us. I hope you have a similar experience.

Shadowy Lady, glad you had a nice night and no long waking! Long may it continue.

Our night was okay. Charlotte is getting a front tooth and it's really bothering her. I gave her some advil and she slept from 6:45pm to 4am. I thought that was pretty good! She then woke screaming. I gave her more advil and fed her and she slept until morning.


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## bananaz

*Shadowy* -I'm glad you and Sofia both got some rest! It's nice you have a neighbor you can crash with.

*Daneuse* - Sorry you're having so many napping issues. Is nursing the only way she'll settle? Starting at around 5 months my LO went through a phase where I couldn't BF her to sleep during the day but I discovered that sometimes I could get down using other methods (singing, bouncing, patting, etc). About the gas, have you tried colic massage? Sorry if that's what you meant by rubbing her belly, just figured I'd ask since it was really helpful for us :flower:

*Noelle* - A 9+ hour stretch is awesome, especially during teething! I hope that tooth pops through soon. Also, how did you manage to eliminate night feedings again? Did you use the Ferber night weaning method or something else?


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## Noelle610

Bananaz, we did manage to do it again! Just went cold turkey again. Truthfully she was fine. I think maybe she fussed a bit for one night, but she's been sleeping really well the past few weeks.


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## Sunnie1984

Hello Ladies, 

Bananaz - I don't think it really counts as CIO unless she is really crying. I always ignore Seren if she's fussing, and she'll often put herself to sleep. 

Aimee - Yay for the good nights, but boo for the middle of the night party. Maybe he's in a growth spurt? 

Shadowy Lady - Glad you managed to get pretty good sleep at your neighbours. I hope that is the end of the MOTN Parties too. 

Socity - So glad you're going to see someone, hopefully they can recommend something that will have you feeling much better asap. :flower:

Libbylou - Sounds great that lots of self settling is going on. Hopefully that will eventually translate into sleeping through those wakings. 

Daneuse - have you tried infacol before a feed as well as gripe water? I'm finding that combination is working better than just one of them alone? Our wind has been getting worse too - I'm just trying to deal with it at the moment. 

Noelle - that's a great night if she's teething! Hopefully she won't be too bothered by it and it will pop up son enough. 

Ok, we seem to be having a major regression here. She is absolutely knackered all the time, as though she hasn't slept, but she has! 

She screamed for two hours straight the night before last, and turned out to be just overtired. She has never ever had that as a problem, she's always been great at going to sleep. 

Then she slept every 1.5 hours yesterday, and struggled to go to sleep each time (usually does 2.5 hours awake). So I bathed her at 5pm rather than 5:45pm, figuring she was still tired, but still got overtired screaming! :nope:

It only took until 6pm to get her to sleep, but then had to kind of dream feed her 30 mins later as she kept waking, crying and going back to sleep. Feed did it's job and she then slept through until 6:20am. Then mooched about and slept until 7:25 which is unheard of. 

She's just gotten really tired again, and again cried trying to get her to go down. She's definitely not undertired, she looks like she hasn't slept in weeks and is constantly rubbing her eyes and yawning. 

I'm not sure whether we're hitting the stormy period of the wonder week 19 later than I though, even by her due date? She's gotten much worse recently, and has had to almost fall asleep on my shoulder before being put down, when before she just wanted to be left alone to go to sleep. 

Did this happen to anyone else during WW19?


----------



## MrsPear

Sorry you have had a rough time Sunnie, it really does sound to me like she is having a major growth spurt or something. Because it seems like she is actually getting quite a bit of sleep, but she's still overstimulated and grumpy. That's what happens to Joni too, although maybe they slow down a bit or get better at coping because she probably hasn't been really like that since 5 months. I reckon around the same age as Seren she had a week or two like that.

x


----------



## mrsbeano

Quinns taking a nice nap so I've ignored the housework and got all caught up! 

Noelle - not too bad for a teething night!

Bananaz - how do you deal with getting up at that time of the night and staying up! This is going to sound silly but when Quinn's having a bottle I literally have my eyes shut and only use the light from the monitor. I just try really hard to not wake up. 

Sunnie - I would bet money that your LO is teething!! Have you tried a bit of baby nurofen to help? Quinn is super clingy when he's teething and I can't put him down at all. 

Mrs Pear - you're back :dohh: Hope Joni has a transformation soon enough. 

Shadowy - yay to the end of the MOTN party. I pretty much used CIO as my answer to that but not for everyone. 

Libby - are you sleeping in seperate rooms with the doors shut? It would be good if you just didn't hear the resettling. Maybe earplugs would help. You still hear when they cry but not the 30 minutes of shuffling either side of that. 

Aimee - glad you've had some better nights. 

We're in a bit of a cycle atm where Quinn is waking up twice. The first isn't really for any reason as he's not hungry or anything. Last night I offered water, he took 1/2 oz and I then checked he was okay before leaving him to it. He cried for 12 minutes off and on before going back to sleep. 

The second one is for a bottle which I am in the process of night weaning. Last night he took 4 oz so tonight I'm only going to make up a 3oz bottle for the night and then gradually reduce it. Fingers crossed he doesn't go too mad. 

I'm not enjoying the two night wakings at all but know its not that terrible. He is still suffering with a runny nose which isn't helping much and I am attributing his first night waking to that still. Looking forward to that passing. 

That was long!!


----------



## mrsbeano

Always forget to add something... Socity, so glad that you're going to try and get a little help. It will allow you to enjoy your little one so so much more x:hugs:


----------



## Shadowy Lady

Sunnie - for us at WW19 we went from one wakeup at night to like 4 :/ it lasted a week. She was still easy to go to sleep she just woke up a lot. She also slept till 10 am instead of her usual 7 am. I actually was more rested then now ironically. Hope this storm passes soon for you. How many hours of nap is she getting?

Mrsbeano - sorry to hear you're back to waking up. At least it's good that you still get some rest. I hear you on the CIO thing. I'm also not opposed to it and will resort to it if needed in the next month or so.


So turned out the night I was away was a fluke....booooo! Last night I was back at home and Sofia was back at MOTN parties :( it was ever slightly better though as she only stayed up for an hour instead of an hour and a half. She went to sleep at 7 pm sharp (put down awake but drowsy)....She woke up at 12, had a bottle of ebm and then proceeded to talk to herself till 1 am when DH went it to her. He said she immediately smiled and wanted to play. So her came back to bed and she went to sleep 5 mins later. She then slept till 6:30 am when she wanted to be up for the day....

These MOTN are really getting annoying. It's soooo hard for me to go back to sleep after being up for an hour in the middle of the night. DH thinks I need better ear plugs and I think we need to do some sleep training. We're thinking that when we're back from our trip in early March we may hire a sleep doula...that seems forever away now though :(

Question for you guys...do you think her babbling away has to do with teething and not developmental? I mean it's been going on for 8 nights exactly, her cheeks are always red and she's more drooly than usual. If so, would it do harm to give her an Advil at night time even if we're not sure if it's teething? Would they necessarily scream when in teething pain or do some babies like mine just babble away at night coz their gums hurt?

I really need some rest here :(


----------



## mrsbeano

I'd give it a go. Worth a shot. 

I talked about how stupid the nurse was when she suggested that Quinn was fussy because he was teething. He had no traditional symptoms but lo and behold two teeth came a few days later. I don't think that theres a set reaction to teething from our LOs. 

MOTN parties do suck. Not sure whats worse - being up multiple times or being awake for one LONG time. What a choice! She will get past it. Quinn only does it on Dad's night because I don't have any of it (mean Mummy!)


----------



## Sunnie1984

MrsPear said:


> Sorry you have had a rough time Sunnie, it really does sound to me like she is having a major growth spurt or something. Because it seems like she is actually getting quite a bit of sleep, but she's still overstimulated and grumpy. That's what happens to Joni too, although maybe they slow down a bit or get better at coping because she probably hasn't been really like that since 5 months. I reckon around the same age as Seren she had a week or two like that.
> 
> x

Thank you, hopefully it is a growth spurt, as it's so unlike her to be so sleepy! The last few growth spurts she's been really hungry, and that's overridden sleep, so I was looking for that in a growth spurt, but you are probably right :flower:



mrsbeano said:


> Sunnie - I would bet money that your LO is teething!! Have you tried a bit of baby nurofen to help? Quinn is super clingy when he's teething and I can't put him down at all.

I wish it was teething. She's been fussy for the last three weeks, with this week being the worst (although they have got progressively worse). I thought it was teething at first, but the neurofen did nothing, and she doesn't have any of her usual teething symptoms. She gets illuminous red cheeks and drools like crazy usually. 



Shadowy Lady said:


> Sunnie - for us at WW19 we went from one wakeup at night to like 4 :/ it lasted a week. She was still easy to go to sleep she just woke up a lot. She also slept till 10 am instead of her usual 7 am. I actually was more rested then now ironically. Hope this storm passes soon for you. How many hours of nap is she getting?

Hmmmm, I think perhaps Mrs Pear is right, and that we've now left WW19 (which was a few wakes ups in the night, with at least one if not two MOTN parties) and have hit a growth spurt. 

By her due date, she should have finished WW19 last Wednesday, but the fussiness continued a little bit, and then suddenly took a dip on Saturday. This is when the sleepiness picked up, so it does fit. 

She only really takes 30 minute naps, she's never really needed anymore. So she was doing 2.5 hours awake, 0.5 hours asleep, and repeat during the day. 

She was about to drop a nap, as she started doing 3.5 hours awake before bed - although I bathed her early to let her sleep a little earlier if necessary, and she usually went down about 15 mins early. 

At the moment she still takes 30 minutes, but within 1.5 hours needs to sleep again. She also slept 13.5 hours straight last night (other than a sneeze at 1:30am). 

So we've been out in the car a lot today, so she has had lots and lots of sleep. She was much better at bedtime. I bathed her at 5pm but she didn't go to sleep until 6:30 because she couldn't get rid of her wind, and then was overtired, but she's now out for the count. 

Mrs Beano - I hate wakings for no visible reason, at least when they are hungry you can help! Hopefully he'll just settle himself quicker and then it will stop (unless it is for the stuffy nose, and then hopefully it will pass when the cold goes away). Good luck with reducing the feeds, and hopefully he'll not be too mad!

Shadowy Lady - I think the babbling could be developmental or teething (helpful I know). I thought Seren was teething at the beginning of the fussiness I attribute to WW19 - it could easily have been teething followed by WW!9, now followed by growth spurt for me. 

I don't see any harm in giving a dose of advil to see if it helps. If you are worried, alternate ibuprofen and paracetamol each night to space out the different medications - but it won't be doing any harm. 

Also, check if Sofia is warm enough - Our night wakings were drastically reduced when we bought a heater for Seren's room, it clicks on and off to keep the room at a set temperature. 

Seren doesn't really scream when teething (during the night) she prefers to sleep, so she'll turn over and fuss and go back to sleep. So not all babies cry during teething, particularly at night. 

x


----------



## Aimee1003

Sunny- WW19 and WW 26 all ran together for us. One big mess of sleep. Ergh.

Shadowy -I still say developmental. WW26 started for us at week 21. C has always had long wake ups. Shortest is 30 min but 45-50 min is average. I snooze in the recliner while I nurse him. This has helped me be able to go back to sleep but sometimes it doesn't work. Kudos to ur husband. He sounds like he helps out a lot.

Mrs Beano- C is now down to 2 wakeups. After the month of sleep hell, it is heaven. However, a few months ago 2 wake ups would have been horrible. Guess it is all relative.

SO C is sick. Running a fever of 102 plus and feels poorly. His sleep is obviously rubbish again. Sat night he was ok and went down easily at7. He slept til 2:30 (yay) but when I got up to feed him, he was warm to the touch. He was very restless and difficult to get back to sleep. Went back down at 3:30 but was up at 5. Same story. All day Sunday, he ran fever and threw up a few times. Nose is runny too. He only napped 45 min even though I tried all day to get him down. BUT last night was hideous. Hard to get to sleep but got down at 7:30. Up 10-12, very restless, could not fall back asleep so I laid him down in crib and he went right to sleep. Didn't even cry. Up at 3:30.. same story. Down 4:45. Up 6-7. Then awake at 8.
I took off work today since he is still poorly. He is having a hard time napping. I usually nurse him down but that is not working. Tried rocking, seeing if he would self-settle, swing, etc. No luck. Poor Mr. Coleton!!!


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## bananaz

Shadowy Lady said:


> So turned out the night I was away was a fluke....booooo! Last night I was back at home and Sofia was back at MOTN parties :( it was ever slightly better though as she only stayed up for an hour instead of an hour and a half. She went to sleep at 7 pm sharp (put down awake but drowsy)....She woke up at 12, had a bottle of ebm and then proceeded to talk to herself till 1 am when DH went it to her. He said she immediately smiled and wanted to play. So her came back to bed and she went to sleep 5 mins later. She then slept till 6:30 am when she wanted to be up for the day....
> 
> These MOTN are really getting annoying. It's soooo hard for me to go back to sleep after being up for an hour in the middle of the night. DH thinks I need better ear plugs and I think we need to do some sleep training. We're thinking that when we're back from our trip in early March we may hire a sleep doula...that seems forever away now though :(
> 
> Question for you guys...do you think her babbling away has to do with teething and not developmental? I mean it's been going on for 8 nights exactly, her cheeks are always red and she's more drooly than usual. If so, would it do harm to give her an Advil at night time even if we're not sure if it's teething? Would they necessarily scream when in teething pain or do some babies like mine just babble away at night coz their gums hurt?
> 
> I really need some rest here :(


Giving her some Advil before bed wouldn't do any harm and it might help. I would talk to her pediatrician about dosage first though :flower:


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## bananaz

Aimee1003 said:


> SO C is sick. Running a fever of 102 plus and feels poorly. His sleep is obviously rubbish again. Sat night he was ok and went down easily at7. He slept til 2:30 (yay) but when I got up to feed him, he was warm to the touch. He was very restless and difficult to get back to sleep. Went back down at 3:30 but was up at 5. Same story. All day Sunday, he ran fever and threw up a few times. Nose is runny too. He only napped 45 min even though I tried all day to get him down. BUT last night was hideous. Hard to get to sleep but got down at 7:30. Up 10-12, very restless, could not fall back asleep so I laid him down in crib and he went right to sleep. Didn't even cry. Up at 3:30.. same story. Down 4:45. Up 6-7. Then awake at 8.
> I took off work today since he is still poorly. He is having a hard time napping. I usually nurse him down but that is not working. Tried rocking, seeing if he would self-settle, swing, etc. No luck. Poor Mr. Coleton!!!

Oh gosh, poor guy :( I hope he feels better soon (and that you don't catch whatever it is!)


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## bananaz

Sleep has gone wacky here again. Thankfully LO still has an initial long stretch most of the time but after that there's no telling what will happen. Last night she woke up to eat at 3 and went back to sleep quickly but popped back up 40 minutes later for no reason I could tell. I finally got her back down after an hour of trying various methods, and then she woke up again 25 minutes later! It took a while for her to resettle herself but that time she stayed asleep until almost 8am, which is amazing since she's been getting up between 5 and 5:30am most of the week :wacko:

Naps are really the bigger issue right now though. She's been seriously fighting her afternoon nap and now she's started fighting her morning nap as well. She won't nurse down and she seems to settle if I stand there patting her back for ages but the moment I stop she is wide awake and screaming. 

I'm wondering if this is a new exciting stage of separation anxiety? And if so does that mean I should be extra responsive, or just keep doing what I'm doing? Does anyone feel like handling this phase for me while I go into hibernation for a little while? :coffee:


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## Noelle610

So sorry about the sick baby, Aimee. That's awful.

Bananaz, we haven't had the weird wakings, but are experiencing the same nap refusal here and C is usually a great napper. I do think it's developmental for us, since she just learned to crawl a week ago.

I just read a post about a 9 month old who STTN for 6 months and started waking HOURLY! I'm so terrified now that sleep is relatively normal for us that we will have a horrible regression. Yuck.


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## April76

my boy is 10 months and up till he was 6 months old he slept brilliant. Now he can wake me up every hour sometimes, i am just shattered, i thought by 10 months he would be sleeping through but no :cry:


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## Shadowy Lady

Aimee - sorry to hear about C being sick :( Winter truly sucks this year. Hope he feels better soon mama so you can get some rest too :)

Bananaz - eeeek I'm sorry to hear about both night/nap issues. At least she is giving u that long first initial night time sleep. Do you manage to sleep then yourself? Also, do shorter afternoon naps mean they're about to drop a nap or something?

Noelle - you're a lot like me, always worried of what hasn't come yet and fearing the worst. I guess that's anxiety :/ I'd say stop worrying and just enjoy C's brilliant sleep pattern now. Fingers crossed she'll continue to sttn for years to come.

April 76 - eeeee I'm so sorry to hear this (and frankly kinda scared of what's to come). Have you thought of some form of sleep training? 

So tonight I'm gonna sleep downstairs. It's impossible for me to sleep in between Sofia's babbling at night as our room is so close to hers. I hate sleeping in the basement coz I prefer our own bed next to DH but I don't have a choice for now. DH is working till midnight or so anyway so he'll be in charge of the midnight feed. 

Let's see if we're set for another MOTN episode tonight :/


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## lysh

Hey ladies!
Aimee- Awww...poor baby! Hope he feels better soon! How are you feeling?

Bananaz- Do you think she is dropping a nap soon? I have read so many freaking sleep books that all details are a blur lately! lol I cannot remember when naps tend to drop. My LO still takes 3-4 depending on what time she wakes up- but typically it is 3. 

Noelle- I sympathize with the worrying and anxiety. I am trying so hard to take each night as it comes and appreciate the progress forward, but once we have a bad night I panic that there will be this huge regression! Fingers crossed for you- I find with each step forward I have a much harder time with regressions. I remember when I use to wake up 4-5 times a night! Now typically LO wakes up once. Last night she woke up twice and I felt like it was the end of the world! lol 

April76- Yikes, that scares me! I hope things settle for you- what have you tried to help LO get back on track?

Shadowy Lady- I hope you do not have a MOTN party.....last night LO almost had one.

Well great start to the night..just put her down 30 minutes ago and guess who is screaming! ugh Alrighty...off I go....:/


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## Aimee1003

Ugh...it's the flu!!!! Yuck.


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## lysh

Okay, after a little snuggling/nursing she went back to sleep. I hope this lasts! Last night she was up twice and then woke up for good at 4. DH got up with her at 4, but I still had to nurse her in bed until about 4:30 and then I had to get up for work at 5:30. 

I still pretty much nurse her to sleep. I keep thinking I should really work on the whole putting her down drowsy thing, but it is so much easier this way! lol


----------



## lysh

Aimee1003 said:


> Ugh...it's the flu!!!! Yuck.

Oh no!!! This flu is going around like wildfire!!!!! Sending healing/healthy thoughts your LOs way!!!!


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## MrsPear

Aimee1003 said:


> Ugh...it's the flu!!!! Yuck.

Oh no :nope: Get well soon to your LO. That's really tough on you both. Poor guy, I really feel for him.

Lysh- I put Joni down asleep too, I try putting her down drowsy but it doesn't work. I just keep telling myself not to stress, and it won't be like that forever. If she stays asleep when I put her down, I'm happy.

Sorry Shadowy Lady- it sounds really hard despite a good night the other night, you sound really stressed. I'm sorry I don't have any good advice- I do understand though. It really is tough.

Bananaz, I think Joni has separation anxiety too, because when she wakes up she doesn't have a fussy stage, she just screams straight away, but stops when I arrive. Horrid, isn't it!! I am just being extra responsive, OH thinks we shouldn't pander to it, but in my mind I want her to learn, "I feel scared on my own but my mummy will always be there so it's okay and I don't need to cry", not "I feel scared on my own and no one is there so I don't need to cry", however, I have done NO research on that so I can't stress enough that it's just what I've decided in my head and might me completely wrong!

April- It's so tiring waking up that much. I'm sorry you had a bad regression like that. I'd almost rather not get to the good sleep point because I don't think I could take such a big backwards leap :nope: You must be so tired.


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## lysh

MrsPear said:


> April- It's so tiring waking up that much. I'm sorry you had a bad regression like that. I'd almost rather not get to the good sleep point because I don't think I could take such a big backwards leap :nope: You must be so tired.

That is how I feel.....I would rather sleep stay crappy then have it be wonderful and go crappy again. 

LO was up 4 times last night....:coffee: She woke up at 8, 10:20, 2, 3. I went in for all wake-ups except at 3. I knew if I went in she would wake up for the day. My performance at my job is suffering already. We get up if its 4 or later, but she cannot start this 3 am stuff! She cried for 15 minutes and then slept until 4:50.


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## MrsPear

lysh said:


> MrsPear said:
> 
> 
> April- It's so tiring waking up that much. I'm sorry you had a bad regression like that. I'd almost rather not get to the good sleep point because I don't think I could take such a big backwards leap :nope: You must be so tired.
> 
> That is how I feel.....I would rather sleep stay crappy then have it be wonderful and go crappy again.
> 
> LO was up 4 times last night....:coffee: She woke up at 8, 10:20, 2, 3. I went in for all wake-ups except at 3. I knew if I went in she would wake up for the day. My performance at my job is suffering already. We get up if its 4 or later, but she cannot start this 3 am stuff! She cried for 15 minutes and then slept until 4:50.Click to expand...

3am isn't morning time! It just isn't!! x


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## Noelle610

It's comforting to know that many of you relate to my anxiety over sleep going from good to bad! You just can't win :) 

Lysh, I am a morning person and often get up around 5:30am to have some "me" time before Charlotte gets up. But 3am is the middle of the night, even for me!

Charlotte woke up at 9:30pm with teething pain just 30 minutes after I had drifted off to sleep. UGH! She hasn't woken that early since before the holidays. Zzzz. Come on tooth, pop through!


----------



## Lady_Bee

So finally I would say my situation with sleep is getting desperate :(

I guess this year of extreme sleep deprivation is beginning to drag me down. Doooooooooown. I am ACHING for some sleep. I find that I am constantly angry, depressed, feeling hopeless, fantasizing about running away... I have no energy for anything and feel life is one huge chore. And I KNOW all I need is some sleep, that's why this is so frustrating!!!

My boy is almost one and is now waking every hour. Every. Bloody. Hour.

I can't cope. Seriously I just can't.

What do I do?

HELP!!!!! I think my husband will leave me soon if I don't fix this! All I do is yell at him I'm just so angry all the time and exhausted :(


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## Noelle610

Oh no Lady_Bee, I'm sorry!

Is this a new development or is this normal for him? I've heard that some babies have a sleep regression around this age as they're learning to walk. 

Does he have any major sleep associations that might be waking him, like a pacifier or nursing to sleep?

Sleep deprivation was really hard on my marriage, too, so I understand.


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## Lady_Bee

Noelle, he was never a good sleeper but used to sleep in 2-3 hour stretches and just wake 2-3 times a night. Which was still awful but I could cope with it. I don't know why he now won't stay asleep for longer than about 45 minutes. :( he learned to walk 3 months ago so it's not that. I guess it could be separation anxiety but I'm skeptical.

We rock him to sleep. He went through a phase where he would settle himself if I sat by the crib but it lasted a week and then stopped working. So we were back to square one. 

I think I'm just going to have to stop picking him up. It will be so hard but I'm literally about to lose it! I am so worried about my sanity!

My husband is useless, he just has ONE suggestion and that is "let him cry, don't even go to him!". Not sure why he thinks that is a good suggestion... Even CIO books don't say to do that! The worst part is he's so smug about it grrrr it makes me so irritated just thinking about it.


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## Noelle610

It sounds like a rock to sleep association :( I don't think you should just leave him, but perhaps you could try some progressive waiting? I usually give Charlotte 10 or 15 minutes to settle before responding to a night waking and she will often go back to sleep! Big hugs.


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## Lady_Bee

I think you're right, I really thought he would figure it out by now though. i thought we were really getting somewhere a couple of months back when he decided he didnt need to be rocked anymore! Wish it had lasted! Now he doesn't want to be put down!

I won't leave him, I could never do that. I've read advice on other boards from mums who had success with soothing in the crib and just being resolute in not picking him up for a cuddle during night wakings. I think I'm going to try that. It'll probably mean even less sleep for a while but I have to do something.

My other plan is bed-sharing again. I'm not sure that will work too well because he doesn't settle well in bed with me lately. He used to when he was much younger... Ah well. :nope:

So with your daughter when she wakes at night do you let her full on cry for 15 minutes then or does she just fuss?


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## Noelle610

Lady_Bee said:


> I think you're right, I really thought he would figure it out by now though. i thought we were really getting somewhere a couple of months back when he decided he didnt need to be rocked anymore! Wish it had lasted! Now he doesn't want to be put down!
> 
> I won't leave him, I could never do that. I've read advice on other boards from mums who had success with soothing in the crib and just being resolute in not picking him up for a cuddle during night wakings. I think I'm going to try that. It'll probably mean even less sleep for a while but I have to do something.
> 
> My other plan is bed-sharing again. I'm not sure that will work too well because he doesn't settle well in bed with me lately. He used to when he was much younger... Ah well. :nope:
> 
> So with your daughter when she wakes at night do you let her full on cry for 15 minutes then or does she just fuss?

We did that - the no pick up and soothe in the crib. It worked really well. Obviously I still pick up if teething/ill/really upset.

Just fussing - I would never let her full on cry for that long, but that's just me personally. I'm not against it on principle or anything, it's just not really for me.


----------



## bananaz

Lady_Bee said:


> I think you're right, I really thought he would figure it out by now though. i thought we were really getting somewhere a couple of months back when he decided he didnt need to be rocked anymore! Wish it had lasted! Now he doesn't want to be put down!
> 
> I won't leave him, I could never do that. I've read advice on other boards from mums who had success with soothing in the crib and just being resolute in not picking him up for a cuddle during night wakings. I think I'm going to try that. It'll probably mean even less sleep for a while but I have to do something.
> 
> My other plan is bed-sharing again. I'm not sure that will work too well because he doesn't settle well in bed with me lately. He used to when he was much younger... Ah well. :nope:
> 
> So with your daughter when she wakes at night do you let her full on cry for 15 minutes then or does she just fuss?


Have you heard of the Sleep Lady Shuffle? It's basically what you're talking about doing, but I find having some detailed guidelines can be helpful (I guess I'm a sucker for "methods"!). There will probably be some crying but you'll be right there so it's a gentler technique.

https://www.parentsconnect.com/parenting-your-kids/kids-sleeping/good-night-sleep-lady-shuffle.html


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## Lady_Bee

Noelle610 said:


> We did that - the no pick up and soothe in the crib. It worked really well. Obviously I still pick up if teething/ill/really upset.

Cool :) did it help her to sleep longer periods at all do you think? Did she protest a lot in the beginning and get really frustrated at you for not picking her up?



Noelle610 said:


> Just fussing - I would never let her full on cry for that long, but that's just me personally. I'm not against it on principle or anything, it's just not really for me.

Just clarifying! Yeah I don't think I could either. Maybe I SHOULD leave him longer during the night. I don't know. I usually give him a few minutes but the annoying thing is if he doesn't go back to sleep within that timeframe he tends to work up to a hysteria pretty fast :nope: Thanks for your advice. :flower:


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## Noelle610

Yes, I do think it helped her to sleep longer periods! We night weaned as well, so when she would fuss my husband or I would go in and comfort her by rubbing her back, talking softly, etc., but not picking up. She did protest a lot of the first three days, but after that she slept really well. I think the hardest part is having the energy to stick with it when you're sleep deprived and it's 4am and you just want to do what is easiest!

It's hard I think if your baby gets worked up really quickly. I was fortunate not to have that issue. I know that changes things a bit.


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## Shadowy Lady

Lysh - eeeek 3:30 that's before even the birds wake up :( I'm sorry

Last night was ok fro me coz I slept in the basement guest room for most of the night, went to sleep at 8:30 pm and DH came to get me at 3:30 am when she had woken up. I fed her and "tried" to go back to sleep. But again she was babbling away till 4:30 am or so till we both went to sleep. But then she woke up at 6:30 and wanted to be up for the day.

DH told me that she woke up at 10:30 pm (yukkk....super early for her). But he said that looking at the monitor she looked like she wanted to be asleep but was in pain/discomfort. So he gave her Advil and some milk (she only took 2oz before sleeping he says). Apparently her had forgotten the Advil before bed.

I'm getting convinced that she's teething now. Who knows how long it will go. At least I got some sleep so I'm pumped for my bootcamp class :)

Question - I was told babies Sofia's age should have their naps at approximately 9 am, 1 pm and then one catnap at around 3:30 pm. But since Sofia's sleep is all over the place, so are her nap times. She took her first nap from 7:40-9:50 am. She's up now but I know she'd wanna nap again at around 11:30 or so. How do I stick to the nap schedule when she wakes up at different times in the morning even though her bedtime is always the same (6:45-7:15 pm range)?


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## Boo44

Noelle610 said:


> Does he have any major sleep associations that might be waking him, like a pacifier or nursing

Ahh Noelle that scares me as Jack uses a dummy! But I know in the night he can settle without it so I keep giving him it to comfort him and at bedtime! I always lie there and wonder which way to go. If its before 6am then no doubt I just let him fuss and 9/10 he'll go back to sleep. If it's after 6 I umm and ahh as I know he'll go back to sleep with the dummy and worry that at that time if he's awake he'll just be awake for the day! I left him at 6 this morning and he went back to sleep. Think it's just something I'll have to play by ear!

I hope Charlotte's tooth pops through really soon. We got 2 in one day last week and boy did I know about it! Poor things xx

Lady_Bee I have nothing to add but only that I feel for you and I hope you manage to sort out your little boy's sleeping. If it's any consolation I think these girls are really the best people to help you! I love reading their advice lol xx


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## Lady_Bee

> Have you heard of the Sleep Lady Shuffle? It's basically what you're talking about doing, but I find having some detailed guidelines can be helpful (I guess I'm a sucker for "methods"!). There will probably be some crying but you'll be right there so it's a gentler technique.
> 
> https://www.parentsconnect.com/parenting-your-kids/kids-sleeping/good-night-sleep-lady-shuffle.html

Sorry I missed your post somehow... No I hadn't heard of that. Thanks for the info!! Will check it out.


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## Noelle610

Boo44 said:


> Noelle610 said:
> 
> 
> Does he have any major sleep associations that might be waking him, like a pacifier or nursing
> 
> Ahh Noelle that scares me as Jack uses a dummy! But I know in the night he can settle without it so I keep giving him it to comfort him and at bedtime! I always lie there and wonder which way to go. If its before 6am then no doubt I just let him fuss and 9/10 he'll go back to sleep. If it's after 6 I umm and ahh as I know he'll go back to sleep with the dummy and worry that at that time if he's awake he'll just be awake for the day! I left him at 6 this morning and he went back to sleep. Think it's just something I'll have to play by ear!
> 
> I hope Charlotte's tooth pops through really soon. We got 2 in one day last week and boy did I know about it! Poor things xx
> 
> Lady_Bee I have nothing to add but only that I feel for you and I hope you manage to sort out your little boy's sleeping. If it's any consolation I think these girls are really the best people to help you! I love reading their advice lol xxClick to expand...

Truthfully, I think most kids are fine with a dummy - it only becomes problematic for some! Charlotte uses one from time to time and it really helps to comfort her if she wakes around the 4am mark or she's teething. It doesn't seem to affect us negatively at all!


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## Noelle610

Shadowy Lady said:


> Lysh - eeeek 3:30 that's before even the birds wake up :( I'm sorry
> 
> Last night was ok fro me coz I slept in the basement guest room for most of the night, went to sleep at 8:30 pm and DH came to get me at 3:30 am when she had woken up. I fed her and "tried" to go back to sleep. But again she was babbling away till 4:30 am or so till we both went to sleep. But then she woke up at 6:30 and wanted to be up for the day.
> 
> DH told me that she woke up at 10:30 pm (yukkk....super early for her). But he said that looking at the monitor she looked like she wanted to be asleep but was in pain/discomfort. So he gave her Advil and some milk (she only took 2oz before sleeping he says). Apparently her had forgotten the Advil before bed.
> 
> I'm getting convinced that she's teething now. Who knows how long it will go. At least I got some sleep so I'm pumped for my bootcamp class :)
> 
> Question - I was told babies Sofia's age should have their naps at approximately 9 am, 1 pm and then one catnap at around 3:30 pm. But since Sofia's sleep is all over the place, so are her nap times. She took her first nap from 7:40-9:50 am. She's up now but I know she'd wanna nap again at around 11:30 or so. How do I stick to the nap schedule when she wakes up at different times in the morning even though her bedtime is always the same (6:45-7:15 pm range)?

Charlotte's napping was pretty inconsistent until 6 months :)

I don't go by the clock, but wake times. More often than not, her naps usually fall around the same times daily, but it varies depending on when she wakes up and how sleepy she is that day. 

Charlotte usually wakes around 6:30am and will nap 2 or 2.5 hours after waking - usually 8:30am or 9am for 90 minutes. She will then nap 3 or 3.5 hours after waking from the first nap - usually 1pm or 1:30pm, but sometimes as late as 2pm, for 90 minutes give or take. She then goes to bed anywhere from 3 to 4 hours after her last nap - it's usually between 6pm and 7pm. Sometimes there is a smaller wake time before bed if she naps until 4pm or so, which happens on the weekends sometimes. 

Not sure if that makes sense, but hope it helps! When C took three naps, they were shorter (like 45 minutes maybe) and she would nap every 2 hours or so.


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## Lady_Bee

First night trying to soothe in crib... We only managed 20 minutes until LO was crying so hard he puked all over his bed. :( We decided that was enough for tonight. So frustrated.


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## Noelle610

Poor baby and poor mama. I'm sorry it didn't go so well :(


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## Sunnie1984

Yawn... 

I'll reply properly when Seren goes to bed tonight but suffice to say that she was awake every 15 mins from 4am. 

It was also the first day we'd had a breakthrough with her wind by using gripe water, which has upset her tummy.... So back to square one! 

Plus it was the first night I went to bed late as had friends round, typical!


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## Noelle610

Sorry Sunnie! Something about the hours of 4am - 6am ... They're unbearable! I think it's because babies are in a light sleep cycle and have trouble going to sleep unassisted. If Charlotte's going to stir, it's more often than not around this time. DH and I used to call it the "four o'clock shuffle". She did the awake every 15 minutes until around 5:30am thing for awhile.


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## Shadowy Lady

So Noelle, I feel exactly the same way you did when you started this thread. I guess Charlotte was 5 months or so old then, right? I really think I'm going to lose my mind with these MOTN parties and really see no light at the end of the tunnel :(

Last night, Sofia went to bed at 7 pm sharp with a full stomach and a dose of Advil. She looked around for a bit and was asleep by 7:05. She woke up at 11:30 pm and DH gave her her ebm outta which she only took 2 oz before falling asleep. The problem was that she woke up again at 2:30 am. I looked at her on the monitor and it seemed like she didn't wanna wake up but something was bothering her. I went in at around 2:40 am and fed her and she ate a bit...then she was going to sleep again but same thing...something was snapping her outta her sleep....this went on till 3:50 am when I went in again and tried to feed her. She barely ate anything but calmed down enough to go to sleep.

She woke up for the day at 8 am and is taking her first nap now starting 9:30 am. I'm at loss of what's keeping her up. I mean she had the Advil, she was full, had not pooped and was not overtired. I obv slept very poorly and feel so down this morning. I barely remember the times when she used to sleep 8-9 hours stretches or even the times she went down quickly after a feed :(

Made an appt with the pedi for 2 hours from now to get some advice and make sure health wise she is ok. She's her same old during the day it's just these night time episodes that are getting worse every night...

sigh....feeling so helpless :/


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## Noelle610

Shadowy Lady said:


> So Noelle, I feel exactly the same way you did when you started this thread. I guess Charlotte was 5 months or so old then, right? I really think I'm going to lose my mind with these MOTN parties and really see no light at the end of the tunnel :(
> 
> Last night, Sofia went to bed at 7 pm sharp with a full stomach and a dose of Advil. She looked around for a bit and was asleep by 7:05. She woke up at 11:30 pm and DH gave her her ebm outta which she only took 2 oz before falling asleep. The problem was that she woke up again at 2:30 am. I looked at her on the monitor and it seemed like she didn't wanna wake up but something was bothering her. I went in at around 2:40 am and fed her and she ate a bit...then she was going to sleep again but same thing...something was snapping her outta her sleep....this went on till 3:50 am when I went in again and tried to feed her. She barely ate anything but calmed down enough to go to sleep.
> 
> She woke up for the day at 8 am and is taking her first nap now starting 9:30 am. I'm at loss of what's keeping her up. I mean she had the Advil, she was full, had not pooped and was not overtired. I obv slept very poorly and feel so down this morning. I barely remember the times when she used to sleep 8-9 hours stretches or even the times she went down quickly after a feed :(
> 
> Made an appt with the pedi for 2 hours from now to get some advice and make sure health wise she is ok. She's her same old during the day it's just these night time episodes that are getting worse every night...
> 
> sigh....feeling so helpless :/

:hugs:

Let us know what the ped says.


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## Sunnie1984

Aimee - :hugs: I hope he gets better soon. 

Bananaz - :hugs: to you as well. That must be really frustrating, although at least she slept in to make up some of that sleep. For what it's worth, I'd keep doing what you are doing, unless she gets hysterical with what you are doing. If she's settling for you (in the end) I think you're doing great. 

Noelle - Could it be that she's ready to drop/tweak a nap time? 

April - Oh no, that must be beyond tough for you. 

Lysh - Sorry you had such a bad night. I agree that 3am is definitely not wake up time! 

Ladybee - I'm so sorry. I really hope this is just a phase and passes quickly. I don't really have any advice, I'm sorry, I don't know a lot about the developmental things at his age. 

Shadowy Lady - I'm glad that at least you got a good stretch of sleep before you had to feed the night before last . Could the wakings still be pain, the advil will only last 4 hours, so anything after that could be breakthrough pain? I agree that you need to look at Sofia's wake time, rather than a set time of day for naps. 


I'm not really sure what's going on with us at the moment. Seren's naps got interrupted during the day yesterday, and I think she was definitely overtired, which might have been what caused the early morning wakings. They are really unusual for her. 

I also wonder whether she has begun teething. She was drooling like mad today. But she didn't really seem to need pain killers etc, so maybe not. 

Well her naps have been a lot better today, and she went down at 7pm, having had her last nap at 4:30 for 45 minutes, which is really long for her. 

Although quite funny, she now prefers to sleep on her tummy, but when I put her down she tries to crawl, even when she's really really tired, it's like she can't help herself :haha:

So I have to put my hand on her back and ssshhh her until she gets her thumb in her mouth and settles. 

Hmmm I wonder, I thought she was hitting WW19 late, but is it possible she's hitting WW26 early? 

She learnt to roll about two weeks ago, when I though it should be the start of WW19, but maybe it was the end of WW19 and she's moved on to WW26 fussy period instead? 

I cannot wait until the end of WW26 and I can breathe again. 

In the meantime I'm going to bed early tonight so I can catch up on sleep myself. :thumbup:


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## Noelle610

Sunnie, I don't think she's ready to drop a nap. She's on two and I don't think either of us is ready for only one at 8 months haha!

WW19 and WW26 sometimes run into each other - I think I had a week off in between! It's a rough time for sleep. A sleep consultant once told me that 4 and 5 months is like "one big wonder week". After that you get a nice big break. I haven't found WW37 to be nearly as bad, but that may be because my kid was a colicky, refluxy mess until 6 months, so these disruptions don't bother me as much as the average person :haha:


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## Sunnie1984

Noelle610 said:


> Sunnie, I don't think she's ready to drop a nap. She's on two and I don't think either of us is ready for only one at 8 months haha!
> 
> WW19 and WW26 sometimes run into each other - I think I had a week off in between! It's a rough time for sleep. A sleep consultant once told me that 4 and 5 months is like "one big wonder week". After that you get a nice big break. I haven't found WW37 to be nearly as bad, but that may be because my kid was a colicky, refluxy mess until 6 months, so these disruptions don't bother me as much as the average person :haha:

Yes I guess it is a bit soon to drop a nap. Will it mess her bedtime up if you moved it to say 15-30 minutes later? Maybe she needs a little more awake time before a nap? 

Yep it feels like one big wonder week. According to my diary (I put all WW dates in there a month ago) she should be out of WW19, heading for a sunny period on Saturday, then in a week and a half, back to fussy in prep for WW26, but I've not seen the fussiness ease off. 

Although she's been really sleepy the last couple of days, which I think (as pp have suggested) was either growth spurt or teething (as she's now drooling for england). So maybe we're in the gap for WW19 and WW26 but other things are in the way. 

That doesn't explain the attempts to crawl though, she literally only just learnt to roll, and now that's not enough for her! :haha: I wonder whether being with older babies and watching them has spurred her on! 

Has Charlotte popped her tooth or is she still struggling? 

x


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## Noelle610

OMG that darn front tooth is still right on the gum line! She STTN last night, 7pm to 7am (wahooo!) so seems okay for now. She's very on and off with teething.


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## Boo44

Sunnie - seren is such a beautiful name :)


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## mrsbeano

Ladies and more ladies (no gents here I think)... we have a culprit. Felt at approximately 6pm this evening we have another tooth. Runny nose is now accounted for as is the random waking up for apparently no good reason. 

Last night... A-MA-ZING! Best sleep ever (for the sprog anyway). Not counting on it being the start of anything. Quinn likes to tease for a few nights every now and again before resuming his usual sleep depriving antics. 

Fingers crossed for tonight everyone! Like in the TTC forums how the spread baby dust, we can spread sleep dust:dust:


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## Shadowy Lady

so the pedi is more worried about me than Sofia. She checked her and said she's fine just teething (and it may take another month or so). She said to stay consistent with what we do when she wakes up. So for the next 4 nights, if she wakes up, we'll feed, hold, put down and leave and ignore till she falls back asleep (as she tends to cry more when we check on her).

For me though she said I'm showing some signs of PPD :( She said I HAVE to get at least 3 nights off per week as the depression is coming from sleep deprivation. 2-3 hours of sleep per night is just too rough on my body.


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## MrsPear

Thanks for the sleep dust! Joni slept in her cot until 4:30 last night before she wanted cuddling... That's the longest BY FAR in weeks. I don't mean she slept through till then (of course not, she woke loads of times!) but she did settle each time and I got some actual sleep on my back likea normal person rather than lying awake till she wakes for the first time and then holding her the rest of time night. Fingers crossed for tonight.

I'm a bit worried about her weight. She was 75 th percentile when born and now she is teeny, she is going to be 7 months in 10 days and only 13lbs15oz. I think I'm going to take her to the doctor because she refuses point blank a bottle an?d I'm starting to think she may be waking up actually hungry grather. than wanting comfort 4 or so times in the night which I think is quite a lot for her age.

Hope everyone gets some good sleep x


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## Noelle610

Shadowy Lady said:


> so the pedi is more worried about me than Sofia. She checked her and said she's fine just teething (and it may take another month or so). She said to stay consistent with what we do when she wakes up. So for the next 4 nights, if she wakes up, we'll feed, hold, put down and leave and ignore till she falls back asleep (as she tends to cry more when we check on her).
> 
> For me though she said I'm showing some signs of PPD :( She said I HAVE to get at least 3 nights off per week as the depression is coming from sleep deprivation. 2-3 hours of sleep per night is just too rough on my body.

Oh big hugs. I think your ped gives good advice in being consistent. Once Sofia is 6 months you can give her advil, which works really well for teething and lasts 6-8 hours, which = more sleep for everyone. Charlotte teethed for a long time before those first teeth too. 

Please, please take cre of yourself. You must listen to the doc and get that sleep. 2-3 hours of sleep (or less) is what I was getting at my worst and it was absolutely unbearable. I feel like a new person now that I sleep "normally" (for a mom!) and even night wakings or a series of tough nights aren't quite as bad.


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## mrsbeano

Shadowy - your Dr is right, 2 hours sleep just isn't enough and I think she's right about how to respond to Sofia too. I have thought a few times that I have PPD but then I get a bit of rest and feel normal again so make sure you look after yourself. 

Mrspear - yay for some rest. How much does Joni eat during the day - is she on solids yet? Quinn was born at the 50th and dropped to the 9th but I really need to get him weighed (a job for Monday). He just wasn't into milk but he loves his solids and I think he's put on some chunk. 

Do you feed her at night at all? x


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## Noelle610

MrsPear said:


> Thanks for the sleep dust! Joni slept in her cot until 4:30 last night before she wanted cuddling... That's the longest BY FAR in weeks. I don't mean she slept through till then (of course not, she woke loads of times!) but she did settle each time and I got some actual sleep on my back likea normal person rather than lying awake till she wakes for the first time and then holding her the rest of time night. Fingers crossed for tonight.
> 
> I'm a bit worried about her weight. She was 75 th percentile when born and now she is teeny, she is going to be 7 months in 10 days and only 13lbs15oz. I think I'm going to take her to the doctor because she refuses point blank a bottle an?d I'm starting to think she may be waking up actually hungry grather. than wanting comfort 4 or so times in the night which I think is quite a lot for her age.
> 
> Hope everyone gets some good sleep x

That is great! Hopefully it's a sign of things to come. I've heard from many moms that once their baby started settling in their own cot, they started sleeping better :)

I do think it's common for babies to fluctuate a bit in their percentiles. Charlotte was born in the 50th, was in the 25th for awhile (probably due to reflux) and is now between the 50th and 75th (my little porker!). I would definitely take Joni to the doc though, just to be safe. How are solids going?


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## Shadowy Lady

Noelle - thanks :) She said i could go ahead and give her Advil and she also advised to start solids slowly.

Mrsbeano - ya the doc told me it was def sleep related too. I too feel much better when i sleep, like my old me.

DH is picking up my sleep meds now...i think i'll have to take tonight off somehow. Not sure how to avoid hearing her though. Maybe I need a sound machine or something


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## Noelle610

Shadowy Lady said:


> Noelle - thanks :) She said i could go ahead and give her Advil and she also advised to start solids slowly.
> 
> Mrsbeano - ya the doc told me it was def sleep related too. I too feel much better when i sleep, like my old me.
> 
> DH is picking up my sleep meds now...i think i'll have to take tonight off somehow. Not sure how to avoid hearing her though. Maybe I need a sound machine or something

Awesome! Let us know how the advil and solids go.

I'm not sure what you will be taking, but the sleep meds have really helped me. I still hear Charlotte, which I prefer, but I fall asleep easily and I go back to sleep easily. It's really nice because her night wakings don't throw me into such a state that I am laying awake for hours just waiting for the next one. The only time I still struggle a bit is in the early morning hours. Around 3am/4am I find I sleep lightly as the meds are wearing off, but such is life. I usually sleep solidly from 9pm to 3am, so that's good enough for me!


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## MrsPear

Shadowy Lady said:


> so the pedi is more worried about me than Sofia. She checked her and said she's fine just teething (and it may take another month or so). She said to stay consistent with what we do when she wakes up. So for the next 4 nights, if she wakes up, we'll feed, hold, put down and leave and ignore till she falls back asleep (as she tends to cry more when we check on her).
> 
> For me though she said I'm showing some signs of PPD :( She said I HAVE to get at least 3 nights off per week as the depression is coming from sleep deprivation. 2-3 hours of sleep per night is just too rough on my body.

Shadowy I wrote on another forum recently that I feel depressed when I'm tired but when I'm not, I feel fine. It really, really is related. I've sat in tears with Joni quite a few times, and it's always always when I'm tired. You do sound a little depressed recently, I think we all know the feeling...it's like a kind of desperation about sleep...I definitely agree some regular time off would help, I noticed you felt very refreshed after your night away, even though you couldn't completely relax. Big hugs to you xxx


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## AngelUK

Shadowy Lady when it is my OH's night I usually put one earphone in and listen to an audiobook. It has to be one I know by heart so that it becomes like white noise and I sleep soo well with that. Maybe you could try either earplugs or your earphones and some soothing non exciting music? Good luck! 

Noelle great advice on the nap transitioning. That third nap of the day is our stumbling block too but the after lunch nap is the clincher really. Depending when that is and how long, determines when and if they can have an afternoon nap. Usually our rule of thumb is no sleep after 4:30 and bedtime is 7. But it is hard to do when they wake up at 1:30 and only had 30 mins. Cranky babies are no fun! xx


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## MrsPear

mrsbeano said:


> Shadowy - your Dr is right, 2 hours sleep just isn't enough and I think she's right about how to respond to Sofia too. I have thought a few times that I have PPD but then I get a bit of rest and feel normal again so make sure you look after yourself.
> 
> Mrspear - yay for some rest. How much does Joni eat during the day - is she on solids yet? Quinn was born at the 50th and dropped to the 9th but I really need to get him weighed (a job for Monday). He just wasn't into milk but he loves his solids and I think he's put on some chunk.
> 
> Do you feed her at night at all? x

We started solids at 25 weeks but she hasn't really gone for it yet- she is having a go though, so hopefully as time goes on she will eat more and more. 

I feed her quite a bit in the night and I'd say she definitely wants feeding not just comfort. In the day she will feed about every 3 hours, a lot if we are at home and less when we are out and about. I hope she'll be like Quinn and get more and more into solids, good luck getting him weighed :flower:


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## Noelle610

AngelUK said:


> Noelle great advice on the nap transitioning. That third nap of the day is our stumbling block too but the after lunch nap is the clincher really. Depending when that is and how long, determines when and if they can have an afternoon nap. Usually our rule of thumb is no sleep after 4:30 and bedtime is 7. But it is hard to do when they wake up at 1:30 and only had 30 mins. Cranky babies are no fun! xx

That transition is so hard!!! Cranky babies are the worst - Charlotte took a 2 hour nap from 1:30pm to 3:30pm yesterday and she was such a joy in the evening. It made all the difference. We only had a slight meltdown at bedtime rather than screaming down the house :haha:


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## Sunnie1984

Yawn... morning ladies

Noelle - Glad you got a good nights sleep from Charlotte, hopefully teething will have passed for now, although I always feel a bit cheated when they stop teething and no tooth, as you know you're going to have to go through it again to get it through! 

Boo44 - Awww thank you! :flower:

Mrsbeano - YAY! so glad the tooth is through and it's settled Quinn. I hope the good nights continue! 

Shadowy Lady - :hugs: I think her recommendation is a great one. There is a reason that sleep deprivation is used as a form of torture, it is horrendous. I think some decent sleep will make a world of difference to you. :thumbup:

Mrspear - I bet that felt really good to get a decent nights sleep, especially lying on your back! If you are worried, you may as well get her checked over by a doctor, to be on the safe side. 


As for us... I despair, where has my good sleeper gone! She woke about every 1.5 hours after going to sleep at 7pm. She would wake screaming, thrash around, but by the time I got to her room, she had her thumb in her mouth and going back to sleep. 

I wondered whether WW or teething, I was going to give her neurofen, but as she was already settling, I thought it would not be good to drag her out of bed and stick a syringe down her throat, it always results in screaming. 

So at 6:40am it was up for the day, and obviously I barely slept inbetween her wake ups as I was wide awake from the screaming. 

So that's about 3 hours sleep the night before last and the same but broken last night. 

She's not very interested in her bottle this morning, and I think her gums on the right side are a little swollen, so I've given her neurofen to see if it makes a difference. If she eats better because of it, I'll give her a dose before bed to see if it helps. 

She doesn't seem in too much pain, but she's constantly got her fingers in her mouth and drooling. 

DH is away until Saturday morning (he's been away for almost a week now) and I'm just exhausted.


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## MrsPear

Aww Sunnie another rubbish night for you, I'm sorry. I hope neuofen helps.
Joni had a bad night too...she got 2 hours sleep and woke at 12:30 and wouldn't go back in her cot, or sleep next to me. I tried until about 2:30 and then held her the rest of the night. I know I may have mentioned it but I'M SO UNCOMFY. Ha. She was up at 6:20 which isn't too early but when you don't have any sleep in the night it feels awful!

I've applied for 2 new jobs this week and got an interview on 13th Feb, so fingers crossed I can start getting it sorted before I go back to work. (might be counting my chickens as I don't have a job yet!)

x


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## mrsbeano

Mrs pear, the routine of getting up at the same time for nursery has helped I think. That n he's so tired he sleeps like a log most nights. They wear him out lol. 

Ok here, woke at 4.30 but settled for only 3 oz. Will continue to reduce that but over 9 hours is great.


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## MrsPear

mrsbeano said:


> Mrs pear, the routine of getting up at the same time for nursery has helped I think. That n he's so tired he sleeps like a log most nights. They wear him out lol.
> 
> Ok here, woke at 4.30 but settled for only 3 oz. Will continue to reduce that but over 9 hours is great.

I will hold that thought close! :flower:
Just both had an hour nap, which is unheard of, and I think she only woke up because my phone rang and we've had our new fish tank delivered (I never had a delivery actually coming at the time it's supposed to before! Yay!) so I'm feeling okay right now.


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## Boo44

AngelUK said:


> Shadowy Lady when it is my OH's night I usually put one earphone in and listen to an audiobook. It has to be one I know by heart so that it becomes like white noise and I sleep soo well with that. Maybe you could try either earplugs or your earphones and some soothing non exciting music? Good luck!
> 
> Noelle great advice on the nap transitioning. That third nap of the day is our stumbling block too but the after lunch nap is the clincher really. Depending when that is and how long, determines when and if they can have an afternoon nap. Usually our rule of thumb is no sleep after 4:30 and bedtime is 7. But it is hard to do when they wake up at 1:30 and only had 30 mins. Cranky babies are no fun! xx

Ahh the third nap! We are struggling with this too. I feel so lost regarding naps at the moment. His first is always the same, 2.5 or 3 hrs after he wakes. Is usually in the car as we go out but he can sleep between 30 mins - 1.5 hrs. Then after lunch he has another. Depending what we are up to this can be 30 mins or an hour. If that nap stretches to around 3 then he can hold out until his 7.30 bed time with little fuss. Any earlier and there's no way! So then I end up encouraging him into a nap and waking him up 20 mins later! Is so silly really. Touch wood his night sleep doesn't seem affected by it. But I feel like I'm doing something wrong! 
I know the best solution would be to stay in and see if putting him in his cot would stretch out his naps and give us some routine so we can drop the third. But genuinely we have classes and visit family and swim etc, so it's very rare I'd be in to do this! Ahhhh

Shadowy - your ped gives great advice. I'm not sure how the American system works but it seems great how you can see an expert at such short notice! Here we have to wait for a referral from a generalist. Although I think your ped may be similar to our GPs. Interesting!


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## Noelle610

Sunnie, if she's off her bottles it very well may be teething. That's the worst! Truly hope you have a better night tonight.

Mrs Pear, good luck with the interviews! I completely agree with MrsBeano - daycare and a routine really got Charlotte sleeping better.

Boo, I wouldn't stress too much about naps. If Jack sleeps well at night and he seems cheerful during the day, he is likely getting all the sleep he needs. 

We had a rough night. Charlotte was super constipated and she woke up around midnight screaming, poor kid. She went back to sleep after I gave her her paci, but woke 45 minutes later, screaming. I gave her a suppository and we waited for it to work, which it did, thankfully. She happily went back to sleep around 1:30am, but I couldn't fall back asleep! That hasn't happened to me in awhile. I finally took a benadryl and that helped. Being up for 2 hours in the middle of the night is no fun!


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## daneuse27

Someone please kill me now. I feel like I cant do this anymore. I thought things were getting better and now they're just going downhill again. Shes not napping, not sleeping and 90% of the time its because of gas! Shes 5 months old and still so gassy, Ive tried every form of gripe water out there, chiropractor and gas drops and nothing helps. Her naps last 10 mins because of it and she constantly wakes up through the night passing air. 

I fell ill with the flu yesterday - fever, vomiting, light headed, etc and SHE WOULD NOT NAP. Gas would keep waking her up. I couldnt eat a single thing yesterday because nothing would stay down and shes still been up 20 times a night from passing air. I thought I was gong to shoot myself. Im sorry for the negativity in this post :cry:


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## Shadowy Lady

Noelle - Sorry about your rough night. It sounds like it may have been a fluke though. I know how tough being awake for hours in the middle of night is.

Angel UK - Sofia's random with the catnap. If her afternoon nap was long she'll skip it otherwise she does cat nap from 3:30-4 pm.

MrsPear - awwww that totally sucks. Good luck with the job application :)

Sunnie - sorry about the rough night. I always drive myself crazy thinking what causes them. Teething is always a factor even if the tooth is not about to pop just yet. Hoping the eurofen works for Seren (beautiful name btw).

Boo - Our naps are not always at the same time either coz we have activities everyday. I'd like to be consistent but sitting at home does no good for my moods.Regarding your question I'm in Canada and i think our system is different from both yours and US. The pedi is the baby's doctor but she was genuinely concerned about me so she spent 2 hours talking to me and gave me the meds. I also have a GP but i had gone to the pedi coz I had thought Sofia may have an ear infection.


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## MrsPear

daneuse27 said:


> Someone please kill me now. I feel like I cant do this anymore. I thought things were getting better and now they're just going downhill again. Shes not napping, not sleeping and 90% of the time its because of gas! Shes 5 months old and still so gassy, Ive tried every form of gripe water out there, chiropractor and gas drops and nothing helps. Her naps last 10 mins because of it and she constantly wakes up through the night passing air.
> 
> I fell ill with the flu yesterday - fever, vomiting, light headed, etc and SHE WOULD NOT NAP. Gas would keep waking her up. I couldnt eat a single thing yesterday because nothing would stay down and shes still been up 20 times a night from passing air. I thought I was gong to shoot myself. Im sorry for the negativity in this post :cry:

Don't worry, you've got to rant somewhere. Everyone here knows what it can feel like, you're in good company. Some days it really does feel that depressing when you haven't slept. And you're sick too :hugs: You need to take it as easy as possible, hard I know with a crying baby that won't nap, but as much as you can forget all other tasks, housework etc, because you can't possibly cope when you are ill. Big big hugs :hugs: it sounds like a really rotten day for you. xxxx


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## Shadowy Lady

last night was better for us. I took the meds and went downstairs to sleep at 9 pm. I only took half dose though and i think it took me a good hour to fall asleep. I woke up at 3 am in panic induced by a nightmare. I cam back upstairs and laid down next to DH who was peacefully asleep. He did murmur that Sofia woke up at 12:30, had her bottle and went to sleep.

So we both slept after that till 6:30 when Sofia woke up and wanted to be up for the day. I feel much better today but think i will take another night off to get rid of my headache finally :)


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## megangrohl

Lily is waking up every 5 minutes. Not even joking. We attempted controlled crying and when it was DF night she slept in her crib 7pm to 7am. She cried out a handful of times but he went in to console her everytime and she was fine.

Lastnight was my night. That didn't work. She kept waking up every 5 minutes and inconsolable every single time. She cried for 3 hours non stop. I am at a loss of what to do. I am even considering CIO because she needs to sleep and not in my god damn bed anymore.

My doctor said this is nothing she needs, because she is not hungry, doesnt need a diaper change, she is just spoiled (in my opinion) and this is her personality now instead of her actually needing something.

I need to break this habit but if I am going in to do CC it doesn't work because she literally will not settle down at all and just continues to cry for hours and not sleep. What should I do :( I have done CC, PUPD, co-sleeping which she sttn for so I know she is capable. She just wants to be close to me and I am getting no rest.

Please somebody help me I am so close to checking myself into a mental institution because I am going MENTAL and btw this is using ferbers methods for CC. All I did lastnight was cry myself to sleep because nothing is working and she needs to sleep in her own bed!

I don't get it! She sleeps in there for all of her naps (2 naps a day) and she is fine. Its about 8 at night it all starts and at that point she wants us to go to bed and have her in with us. I am not goign to bed at 8:00 I fkn refuse. Excuse the language I am so close to losing my shit.


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## Noelle610

Megan, first, big hugs. I know not everyone will agree with me, but perhaps you need to do CIO. My understanding is that some kids are stimulated rather than comforted by checks and CIO works better and with less overall crying. I think it is hard to stick with though. Do you have a video monitor? It might help for peace of mind, so that you could see if Lilly is settling with an "I'm tired" cry or really upset.


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## Noelle610

Also I'm wondering if you need to let OH handle sleep training. If he had success with the Ferber method, perhaps you could even stay somewhere for a few nights. Do Lilly's bedtime routine and get home early in the morning so she knows you haven't left her. There's something about dad. When we night weaned Charlotte she settled more quicly for her father. I also think it's easier for them to be consisten and put up with some crying.


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## Noelle610

Danuese, don't despair! We've all been there. Have you taken your LO to the doctor to rule out a medical cause for the gas?


Shadowy Lady, three cheers for YOU sleeping!


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## megangrohl

He wont do that. I already told him its causing more pain me going in the room. all he says is that we need to move her crib into our room beside the bed which makes no sense because she already has a playpen there and as long as she can see us she stands up screaming for us until we just put her in our bed and it has to stop now


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## Lady_Bee

Well ladies just an update...

Yesterday I stopped walking him to sleep, cold turkey. For the morning nap he took 25 minutes to fall asleep and he got very upset. He basically cried himself to sleep with me rubbing his bum. Nothing seems to calm him at all if I'm not picking him up for a cuddle. :cry: I felt sooooooooo mean.

The afternoon nap was much worse!! It took 90 minutes to get him asleep. I made the "mistake" of picking him up quite a lot as I couldn't calm him any other way... Well I think the act of putting him down again and again made him even more upset because he just wanted to stay in my arms. He SCREAMED every time I started to put him down. It was breaking my heart he seemed sooooo sad, I know he really misses the old way of going to sleep. (The thing is, I would do the rocking/walking for him every time in a heartbeat, IF I weren't in such a state from lack of sleep and if he would just go to sleep easily and then stay asleep for longer periods at night... Oh well.)

Bedtime last night, however, was much better. It took us 45 minutes and there were maybe 2-3 minutes of crying in all. I never had to pick him up once. The rest of the time was just him tossing and turning quietly, and sitting up and lying down and fiddling with his sleeping bag... he went off to sleep very very peacefully.:happydance:

Maybe we got lucky, or maybe he is starting to figure this out.

During the night he woke twice I think! Once at about 9:30 - he went right back to sleep with no fuss after DH told him it was time for night night - and then once at 4:30 for some milk. (We're weaning him off night time milk feeds but had a setback when he was sick last week. He lost quite a lot of weight so I'm giving him milk at night again while he catches up.) It took me an hour to get him back to sleep but there weren't many tears really, just a few minutes. He was obviously frustrated but never hysterical. After that he was up at 7 am. Not such a bad night. I'm still tired but I got at least 7 hours of sleep, woooooohoo.


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## Noelle610

So happy to hear about your progess Lady! It sounds like your method of choice is working. I'd continue the soothing while not picking up. I think it's difficult with an older baby, because he's very used to being rocked/walked/fed to sleep and is going to protest any change. Consistency is key and I bet he learns quicker than you think. You will all be happier with better sleep.

I think it's okay to let go of your guilt, too. We have to do a lot of things for our babies that they don't like. Charlotte hates having her diaper changed, having her face wiped and being dressed, but that doesn't mean I can let her go around napp-free, dirty and naked :) Teaching your LO to sleep on his own is a great skill.


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## Lady_Bee

Megan wow that's so rough. I agree maybe CIO if the co-sleeping is not a viable option for you guys (it isn't for me so I totally understand not wanting to. I sleep like crap with my LO in the bed and he doesn't settle next to me I have to bloody walk for an hour and then sneak him into bed like a ninja. No thanks!) as it seems like you really have tried everything and need a break soooo badly.

Big hugs. :hugs: There is a way beyond this, don't despair. My LO's sleep habits have also had me utterly breaking at the seams lately, it is so hard!


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## Lady_Bee

Noelle610 said:


> So happy to hear about your progess Lady! It sounds like your method of choice is working. I'd continue the soothing while not picking up. I think it's difficult with an older baby, because he's very used to being rocked/walked/fed to sleep and is going to protest any change. Consistency is key and I bet he learns quicker than you think. You will all be happier with better sleep.
> 
> I think it's okay to let go of your guilt, too. We have to do a lot of things for our babies that they don't like. Charlotte hates having her diaper changed, having her face wiped and being dressed, but that doesn't mean I can let her go around napp-free, dirty and naked :) Teaching your LO to sleep on his own is a great skill.

Thank you, I will try to look at it that way. :flower: Part of it is just sadness on my part that the walking isn't working out anymore, because I loved holding him against me as he fell asleep. It was lovely, but I really do think his night wakings are in such a state because he relies on our arms tooooo much now as you suggested. We all need more sleep, so this is for the best...

I hope he does learn quickly!


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## megangrohl

Thanks. It is so hard :( I even slept on all her bedding to have it smelling like me and she still wakes up every 5 minutes unless it is DF going in there consoling her. She will settle for him but not for me. He said he would rather go in and console her every single night like he did 2 nights ago to get her confortable in her room but putting his hands thru the crib bars but he won't do CIO. I told him that when that fails then what? I also said all he is doing is letting her train him, not the other way around.


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## AngelUK

Megan I am so sorry for what you are going through! It sounds like you are having a dreadful time. I can second what Noelle says about some babies becoming more agitated when you go into them. CC would never work with my boys cause they cannot understand why I won't pick them up if I come to them. 
Last night Sebastian woke at 12:45 whining, which is unusual for him but I thought maybe for once he was hungry before Dominic and I went in with his bottle ready. He didn't want it but upon seeing me started crying harder! I discovered that he probably woke cause his dummy was under his back. I gave it to him and his muslin and he shrieked at me! I dived onto the nursery bed so he couldn't see me just to see if he would calm himself. I swear, as soon as I was out of sight, he went back to sleep. There was not even one second of crying after he lost sight of me! We have the GroEgg for a nightlight btw. 
Dominic didn't wake through all of this but usually when Sebastian wakes for a minute or two at night and cries Dominic will wake up and try to go to sleep again by turning to his other side. But if I go in to check on Sebastian, Dominic will cry too. With the result that I have two crying babies. I leave the room and they calm down. 
I am not a huge fan of CIO but I do believe that the prolonged stress of their frequent wakings and the crying that it comes with it, causes them to produce more stress hormones than a few days of sleep training. We did 3 days of CIO with Dominic about a month back to stop his gazillion wakings in the evenings and he no longer wakes at all in the evening now! I have a video monitor and one camera on each baby and I would know if he woke and just didn't cry. He doesn't wake. I now wonder if our going to him so often to re-rock him to sleep might have made him think he kind of had to wake? I don't know but we are now down to one bottle at night and a somewhat early morning. But oh my gosh how much more rested and happy we all are! 
I hope you can work out something for you and your LO soon and that you will both be happier with it :) xx


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## Noelle610

Angel, I'm so happy to hear you and the boys are getting some sleep!


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## AngelUK

Thanks Noelle, so am I. Almost 6 months of dreading the evening and night started taking their toll on me and OH. Now they wake round 5am (though sometimes sleep till 6 which is like a lie in to us lol) which is owie early but we are getting a 4 hour stretch or so before that so yeah that is blissful :)


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## daneuse27

Noelle610 said:


> Danuese, don't despair! We've all been there. Have you taken your LO to the doctor to rule out a medical cause for the gas?
> 
> 
> Shadowy Lady, three cheers for YOU sleeping!

Ive mentioned it to doctors, but they are useless. they just brush it off saying all babies are gassy. 

What kind of medical causes would there be? you're scaring me now. :(


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## Noelle610

daneuse27 said:


> Noelle610 said:
> 
> 
> Danuese, don't despair! We've all been there. Have you taken your LO to the doctor to rule out a medical cause for the gas?
> 
> 
> Shadowy Lady, three cheers for YOU sleeping!
> 
> Ive mentioned it to doctors, but they are useless. they just brush it off saying all babies are gassy.
> 
> What kind of medical causes would there be? you're scaring me now. :(Click to expand...

Oh gosh, I didn't mean to scare you! I was mostly thinking of something like reflux, which while it is painful for baby and mom isn't dangerous. I'm sorry the doctors aren't taking you seriously. That is the worst. 

I think you may have mentioned this previously, but could it be something in your diet? Have you tried an elimination diet?


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## Boo44

Wow angel you're doing amazing considering you have 2! I often think I couldn't do it if I had one waking up and disturbing the other!! So pleased your boys are sleeping great! When you did CIO for Dominic's early evening wakings what happened did he cry for long?

Megan I really feel for you after reading that and I really really hope it sorts out soon! I do wonder if jack plays up a bit for me compared to his dad, so maybe the others are right and your DF doing a few nights might help things?


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## bananaz

*Megan* - Big hugs to you, what a tough situation all around. One of the few nice things about being a single mom is that I have the final say on all parenting decisions (though my family does like interject their opinions whenever they can). It's hard enough to figure out a strategy when you don't have someone else around second-guessing everything!

Anyway, I totally agree with Noelle's suggestions, especially about having your OH handle the sleep training. If he's able to comfort her through the bars and he doesn't want to try CIO, then maybe he could do the Sleep Lady Shuffle? Or I guess it would be the Sleep Gentleman Shuffle in this case...

https://www.parentsconnect.com/pare...sleeping/good-night-sleep-lady-shuffle-1.html

*Lady* - Yay for progress! I know what you mean about being sad to let go but once you start getting more sleep I suspect that sadness will fade away pretty quickly ;)

*daneuse* - Sorry you're having such troubles with gas, we've been there too unfortunately. Are you breastfeeding? If so, how's your supply? Is your LO having any other GI symptoms (green or frothy or explosive poos, spitting up frequently, etc)?

*Angel* - I seriously can't imagine having to deal with two babies in the same room waking each other up. I would probably have a heart attack from the anxiety. Sounds like you are managing it really well though!


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## Lady_Bee

Omg first nap of the day he settled soooooo well it only took 20 minutes of me sitting there reminding him to lie down. No crying! Amazed. Really didn't expect that to go so well. Wonder how long he will sleep for!

Lol Bananaz you're right I won't be sad once I start to get more sleep!! I get plenty of other cuddles during the day too, so I won't be missing out, and to be honest the best cuddles are the cute giggly ones anyway not the grumpy sleepy ones where I've been pacing the room for an hour... Ugh...

It's interesting a lot of your OHs have the magic touch with settling the babies! I said the same thing to my DH last night. He was in the room with me at bedtime and whenever he said "it's time for night night" Alexander just laid his head down without protest, whereas when I did it he would look plaintively at me and start to fret - I think he appreciates my husband's no nonsense attitude. He knows he can milk it a little with me and he always has. I do feel that sometimes he exaggerates his distress to get extra cuddles! He also has a fake cry that is very convincing, lol I can't tell the difference sometimes. :wacko:


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## Sunnie1984

Mrspear - :hugs: That's really really tough on you, I'm sorry. I couldn't sit up all night, I'd collapse! I hope things get better for you tonight. I agree that nursery routine will help a lot, if only to tire her out! :haha:

Mrsbeano - that's great, I hope he takes the next reduction well :flower:

Noelle - Sorry you had a rough night, it just takes so long to go back to sleep when you've been up so late in the middle of the night. I'm glad it was something that you could fix though, and that she had a real reason for waking.

Daneuse - I was going to suggest change of formula but I see you are breast feeding. Do you think it could be something you are eating that is transferring to the breast milk? :hugs:

Shadowy Lady - Aww thank you! :flower: Glad your doctor was so helpful. We can't stay home either, Seren gets cabin fever if I try to stay in after her first nap! I'm really glad last night was better for you. At least you got some solid hours of sleep in, although it's frustrating that nightmares appear when you are getting some decent sleep. Definitely take tonight off too and recharge, it'll do you so much good. 

Megangrohl - :hugs: I'm sorry that CC didn't go so well for you. I think that consistency is the key, that if you are trying CC, you need to give it a good try, like at least a week, and even if it starts to work, expect one or two setbacks. It seems to work for Lily as she settled for your DH. I think LO's always act differently for each parent, so I think that you both just need to continue with it, even if she fights it for you initially. If that really isn't working, then CIO is probably your next step, but it maybe that once she realises that there is no getting back into your bed, she'll go to bed more readily? :hugs: Also, let DH do a few nights in a row before you try again, so that she begins to see the new pattern is bed in her own room? 


Lady Bee- Congrats on the cold turkey. :thumbup: I think that's brilliant progress. I read somewhere (forget where) that they settle easier the first time before they realise that it's not a one time deal! :haha: Then they fight the change more the next times round. I agree with Noelle, it'll take him a little longer to adjust because he's older and he's had longer to get used to that way of going to sleep. 


As for us..

Seren had neurofen and calpol during the day today, and had one nap at 1 hour, and 2 45 mins naps, which are unheard of here, so at least she caught up slightly. She didn't seem to need any painkillers this afternoon or this evening, so I've drawn it up into the syringe ready to use if she is having problems during the night. 

I also think I may have had a breakthrough (tentative as i'm sure it'll all go to pot tonight!). She's been having really bad wind problems, spends the entire day spitting up milk, and bedtimes are a nightmare trying to get rid of all the wind before she sleeps. 

Infacol does nothing, and gripe water upset her tummy a couple of days ago, after only one dose. So she hadn't pooped in 48 hours (until this afternoon, which I think added to the night wakings). 

Someone on a thread in baby club mentioned that comfort formula gave her baby really bad wind. We use comfort milk, so I decided to do half comfort milk and half aptamil 1 in her bottles this afternoon. 

And success! (so far, crossing fingers). She barely had any wind and she only spit up a tiny amount! I'm really hoping that this will solve the problem of the wind, I think it will make her much happier. 

She went down with a fight tonight as she refused her last nap, even in the car which isn't like her, so I bather her at 5:15pm (as soon as we got back home) but as she hadn't slept well last night, she was overtired and cried quite a bit. 

She might wake for a nightfeed, as she hasn't eaten as much as she normally does, but that's ok, I can cope with wake, feed, sleep after the last two days! :haha:


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## daneuse27

Noelle610 said:


> daneuse27 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Noelle610 said:
> 
> 
> Danuese, don't despair! We've all been there. Have you taken your LO to the doctor to rule out a medical cause for the gas?
> 
> 
> Shadowy Lady, three cheers for YOU sleeping!
> 
> Ive mentioned it to doctors, but they are useless. they just brush it off saying all babies are gassy.
> 
> What kind of medical causes would there be? you're scaring me now. :(Click to expand...
> 
> Oh gosh, I didn't mean to scare you! I was mostly thinking of something like reflux, which while it is painful for baby and mom isn't dangerous. I'm sorry the doctors aren't taking you seriously. That is the worst.
> 
> I think you may have mentioned this previously, but could it be something in your diet? Have you tried an elimination diet?Click to expand...

Thats what Im doing now, to see if it makes a difference. Im cutting out all dairy and traces of dairy completely for a week and see if there's a change. This is very hard for me because dairy is one of my favourite things and makes up a huge part of my diet. But if she were to sleep 12 hours a night, and then take naps, I would be such a happier mom. I normally am a happy mom, but being sick makes this so hard .

That poll I posted asking people how much their babies sleep - it seemed like every single person who responded said 11/12 hours at night and 3 hours of naps during the day. I stopped reading the responses because it almost depressed me. I wish I could get my LO to sleep like that. The other night, she slept 12 hours BUT with several gas wakings so it doesnt really count. And then it took 90 mins to get her down for a nap that only lasted 40 minutes (again, woke up with gas!) I would kill for her to sleep better. I really would.


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## daneuse27

bananaz said:


> *daneuse* - Sorry you're having such troubles with gas, we've been there too unfortunately. Are you breastfeeding? If so, how's your supply? Is your LO having any other GI symptoms (green or frothy or explosive poos, spitting up frequently, etc)?

Thank you. No, she doesnt have strange poos and I wouldnt say she spits up too often either. Im trying an elimination diet now to see if that changes anything and maybe ill try more products out there, like gas drops to see if that has any effect. Gripe water has helped, but it doesnt seem to be doing much now. Neither does the chiropractor.


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## Sunnie1984

daneuse27 said:


> That poll I posted asking people how much their babies sleep - it seemed like every single person who responded said 11/12 hours at night and 3 hours of naps during the day. I stopped reading the responses because it almost depressed me. I wish I could get my LO to sleep like that. The other night, she slept 12 hours BUT with several gas wakings so it doesnt really count. And then it took 90 mins to get her down for a nap that only lasted 40 minutes (again, woke up with gas!) I would kill for her to sleep better. I really would.

That's because the only ones who can be bothered to reply to those polls are the ones who are getting blissful nights sleep! Everyone else can barely read the forum as they are so tired! :thumbup:


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## bananaz

We are going through a rough patch here :( LO continues to refuse to be nursed or patted to sleep for naps and self-settling seems to be getting worse rather than better. When I put her in her crib for a nap now she immediately launches into these heart-wrenching hysterical sobs and it takes 30-40 minutes to get her to sleep. 

Last night she was up quite a bit too. I only had to go in once but hearing her grumble and waiting to see if I was going to need to go in made it impossible for me to sleep the rest of the time. At one point I woke up on my own and started freaking out because I thought I'd fallen asleep with her in my bed and then I couldn't find her. I turned on all the lights and started tearing apart my room looking for her, convinced that I'd killed her somehow :dohh:

To make things even worse she seems to have lost almost all of her self-sufficiency and spends every waking moment crying and hitting at my legs, then if I pick her up she'll be happy for a moment before crying and twisting to be put down. Rinse and repeat x10000. The only times she'll entertain herself is if she's getting into stuff she's not supposed to, like the garbage or electrical wires.

I'm totally tapped out at this point. I'm on the verge of tears all the time, and I have no patience with her at all which makes me feel even worse. I'm already fed up with her today and she hasn't even been awake for 3 hours yet :nope:


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## Noelle610

Sunnie, I am glad you found a possible solution! Keep us posted.

Daneuse, I totally understand where you are coming from. When you are exhausted, the last thing you want to do is go on a huge and complicated diet! Kudos to you for keeping with it - I hope you find the culprit. Don't stress about your sleep poll. I agree with Sunnie that those who responded are likely the moms getting more rest. It's like a poll about getting down to your pre-pregnancy weight - those who are super slim right away are the only ones who are giong to share! I also think it's hard to keep perspective when you're so tired and run down. When Charlotte was sleeping really poorly, I felt like every baby I knew was STTN. I think it was because I was so focused on those babies and what I was doing "wrong". The truth is, different babies have different sleep needs. I post on another board with a specific forum for sleep training and this is mentioned constantly - you have to know, is your baby a 12 hour a night baby or a 10 hour a night baby? Babies are just like adults - I need 8 hours of sleep to feel good (ha!), but my husband does well on just 6.

Bananaz, I am sorry you're having a rough time. Charlotte always been kind of on the loud side. Those grumbles wake me, too. Even when she sleeps through the night I often hear her and it's really frustrating. Why can't she be one of those babies that just sleeps through without a peep so that I can sleep through too?!!!!! We also went through the clingy thing and it was super frustrating. C was miserable unless I was holding her or paying attention to her. I'm happy to say it did pass around week 37, just as that wonder week is supposed to end. I'm not sure if I'm remembering correctly, but I believe Elsie was due a week later than Charlotte or so? Hopefully this phase passes quickly for you.


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## bananaz

Sunnie - I'm so glad you're having some success after all the difficulties you've been dealing with. Hopefully the formula change will continue to keep her belly settled. I'm sure that will help with sleep too.


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## bananaz

daneuse27 said:


> Thank you. No, she doesnt have strange poos and I wouldnt say she spits up too often either. Im trying an elimination diet now to see if that changes anything and maybe ill try more products out there, like gas drops to see if that has any effect. Gripe water has helped, but it doesnt seem to be doing much now. Neither does the chiropractor.


The elimination diet is definitely a good idea. I did Dr. Sears' total elimination diet when my LO was a month old and it was really hard but it made such a huge difference for her, especially with sleep. Let us know how it goes!


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## Sunnie1984

bananaz said:


> Sunnie - I'm so glad you're having some success after all the difficulties you've been dealing with. Hopefully the formula change will continue to keep her belly settled. I'm sure that will help with sleep too.

Thanks Bananaz and Noelle. 

I just feel like I want to kick myself now, because I didn't even consider her formula, makes me wonder whether the reflux was down to the formula too. :dohh:

Although I feel like it's too simple a switch, and had an effect rather too quickly, so I'm convinced another problem will raise it's head tomorrow. 

Bananaz, sorry you are having a tough time. It does sound like a wonder week. I forget, has Elsie already gone through her separation anxiety? I guess she could be dealing with that too? 

Does Elsie respond to ssshhing? I think maybe she's too old for it to work, but recently Seren's self settling has gone out of the window, and I've had her on my shoulder and sssshhhh her, and she puts her head down on my shoulder and puts her thumb in her mouth and starts to drift off. Then I can put her in the cot and carry on ssshhhing and she finds her thumb again and goes to sleep. 

Do you have anyone around you who could give you a break for a bit (although that might be hard with the way Elsie is being at the moment). Or even someone who can just come and sit with you, I always find it easier to deal with Seren when she's fussy if there is someone else with me, it gives me some distraction if nothing else.


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## AngelUK

Thanks guys but the only way I can cope is cause I have an amazing OH who takes every other night. If he was working at a regular job this would be impossible. 
The first time we did the CIO it wasn't really the classic one. What happened was that it was OH's night but he woke me at 3 for moral support as he had been rocking Dominic for 3 hours! Every time he put him in his cot seemingly asleep, Dominic would start crying again. Poor OH has RSI in his elbow from having to rock that heavy little boy every night as it is. Well I got up and tried to rock Dominic too. After another 45 minutes we just gave up and said ok now he will just have to cry. We put him in his cot, sat next to him and not 5 minutes later he was asleep!! So we thought we would try this of an evening and see if maybe this way Dominic wouldn't sleep deeply sooner as rocking him back to sleep sometimes could take up to an hour. Next night we rocked him to sleep as always and when he woke 30 minutes later we let him cry. That took 15 minutes. He didn't cry the whole time but "complained" and whined a lot interspersed with crying. The odd thing was that he didn't wake again that evening. Usually he would wake up ca 10 times between his bed time bottle and midnight feed. The next night was 10 mins complainy whiney crying and then the next it was 5. Since then he sometimes woke for a minute and whined a bit and then just went back to sleep. We have had the odd night here and there were for some reason or another the boys would wake in the middle of the night and cry and where we had to let them cry, as going in would have made it worse. But it usually takes far less than 5 minutes before they drop off again. But there have been one or two nights where we did go back into the room and rocked Dominic to sleep cause he got too upset to self settle. But there is a difference in the crying if that is the case. It wasn't the whiney, tired complainy crying but full on sobbing, pretty much immediately. And we would never let him go hysterical and frightened and sit there waiting for him to drop off through exhaustion. I couldn't! It always is Dominic who cries like that btw, never Sebastian. But on one night Sebastian was wide awake as Dominic had been crying so loudly. So after Dominic dropped off on OH's knee in less than a minute, we then tried to rock Sebastian to sleep too but he was bright eyed and bushy tailed. So with him too we gave up after an hour and put him in his cot. He cried as long as he saw us and was out like a light as soon as we hid behind the nursery bed.
I don't know if others will experience this as we did or if their LO will go completely hysterical. I still live in fear of my boys waking and crying cause I hate CIO, it makes me feel nauseous. But I also know that the boys and I will get less sleep if I go into them or rock them and try to let them fall asleep on me. Strange but true. :shrug:


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## bananaz

Sunnie1984 said:


> Thanks Bananaz and Noelle.
> 
> I just feel like I want to kick myself now, because I didn't even consider her formula, makes me wonder whether the reflux was down to the formula too.
> 
> Although I feel like it's too simple a switch, and had an effect rather too quickly, so I'm convinced another problem will raise it's head tomorrow.

Don't beat yourself up about it. There's way too many variables for you to be able to think of them all right away!




Sunnie1984 said:


> Bananaz, sorry you are having a tough time. It does sound like a wonder week. I forget, has Elsie already gone through her separation anxiety? I guess she could be dealing with that too?
> 
> Does Elsie respond to ssshhing? I think maybe she's too old for it to work, but recently Seren's self settling has gone out of the window, and I've had her on my shoulder and sssshhhh her, and she puts her head down on my shoulder and puts her thumb in her mouth and starts to drift off. Then I can put her in the cot and carry on ssshhhing and she finds her thumb again and goes to sleep.
> 
> Do you have anyone around you who could give you a break for a bit (although that might be hard with the way Elsie is being at the moment). Or even someone who can just come and sit with you, I always find it easier to deal with Seren when she's fussy if there is someone else with me, it gives me some distraction if nothing else.


She's been dealing with separation anxiety since 4 months. It's gotten somewhat better recently but that's probably a part of this anyway. It seems like it's neverending!

Normally she does respond pretty well to shushing but whatever's going on with her right now has made that an ineffective tool as well. It will calm her down for a bit but then she gets worked up again :( 

Unfortunately I don't have anyone around to help except on the weekends and sometimes for a little bit in the evenings. Believe me, I would gladly hand her off if I could, haha. She actually tends to do really well with other people as long as she knows them and she can't see me. The one issue is that she's breastfed and won't take a bottle, so I never get more than a couple of hours off at a time. After 8 months it's gotten pretty exhausting.


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## megangrohl

hey bananaz thank you for the link, DF is going to try that for a few nights and I am going away for 2 nights because it is much needed. I am so stressed out! this separation anxiety is terrible, and it is only at night. my mom says i should just let her sleep in my bed but that is NOT an option. She moves constantly, I am an incredibly light sleeper and it wakes me up every 5 minutes. And like you, we have no help. It is just DF and I. I feel a bit worse for you as you are a single mom :(


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## Noelle610

megangrohl said:


> hey bananaz thank you for the link, DF is going to try that for a few nights and I am going away for 2 nights because it is much needed. I am so stressed out! this separation anxiety is terrible, and it is only at night. my mom says i should just let her sleep in my bed but that is NOT an option. She moves constantly, I am an incredibly light sleeper and it wakes me up every 5 minutes. And like you, we have no help. It is just DF and I. I feel a bit worse for you as you are a single mom :(

I am really happy to hear you're going to get away for a few nights. I think it will be good for you and your family. 

I think cosleeping is great if it works for you, but you shouldn't feel you must if you can't get rest that way. Your healthy is important too.

Best of luck -- keep us posted!


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## megangrohl

Thanks Noelle. 

Df has a few questions about that link bananaz. He wants to know if he has to sit in the room in his spot comforting him the whole time or if he just comes in and out as she wakes up? I told him I think he is to sit in there and sooth her but not use a crutch so she learns to self soothe and when she is fully asleep he can leave but if she wakes he is to come back and do the exact same thing as the first time? Also, how long do I give it before I should see results?

When we try to not hold her hand she stands up and cries and she did that for 3 hours lastnight with no end in sight. I don't even know if CIO would even work :(


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## daneuse27

I REALLY hope my LO doesn't get separation anxiety (Im sorry for what you're going through Megan) it sounds incredibly difficult. And as a single mom, I definitely wouldn't be able to handle it. lol
Does anyone know of any ways to avoid separation anxiety from happening?

Regarding the gas - Thank you for all your helpful and supportive replies. Successfully put her down for her nap today, and she woke up every 10 mins twice, and then slept solidly for 40 mins and then the gas bothered her again. Im getting soo frustrated with it because I know its not her fault and shes in so much discomfort but I just hate how it keeps interfering with both of our sleep and my 'me' time (my time to regain my sanity.) :cry:
Im only on day # 2 of dairy elimination and hopefully I see a difference. Ive looked up other things I could try.. like Windi, but I hate the sound of it!


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## bananaz

megangrohl said:


> Thanks Noelle.
> 
> Df has a few questions about that link bananaz. He wants to know if he has to sit in the room in his spot comforting him the whole time or if he just comes in and out as she wakes up? I told him I think he is to sit in there and sooth her but not use a crutch so she learns to self soothe and when she is fully asleep he can leave but if she wakes he is to come back and do the exact same thing as the first time? Also, how long do I give it before I should see results?
> 
> When we try to not hold her hand she stands up and cries and she did that for 3 hours lastnight with no end in sight. I don't even know if CIO would even work :(

I think you're right and that he's supposed to stay until she's asleep, and the key is that he's only soothing intermittently to calm her down, not that he's actually putting her to sleep. 

If he's already had luck settling her through the bars without picking her up then I'd guess that he'll get results pretty quickly. The people I know who used this method said that things started improving within a few days, though I think it typically takes a couple of weeks before you can expect the baby to actually just go to sleep on their own. He wanted a gentle, gradual method though so that's kind of par for the course!


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## bananaz

daneuse27 said:


> Regarding the gas - Thank you for all your helpful and supportive replies. Successfully put her down for her nap today, and she woke up every 10 mins twice, and then slept solidly for 40 mins and then the gas bothered her again. Im getting soo frustrated with it because I know its not her fault and shes in so much discomfort but I just hate how it keeps interfering with both of our sleep and my 'me' time (my time to regain my sanity.) :cry:
> Im only on day # 2 of dairy elimination and hopefully I see a difference. Ive looked up other things I could try.. like Windi, but I hate the sound of it!

I used the Windi regularly on my LO when she was a newborn. Once you get past how disgusting the idea of it is, it's really an awesome tool for gassy babies and the only thing I've found that offers immediate relief.

However for my LO it stopped being as effective when she was around 3 months old. I don't know if that's just because she stopped being as gassy at that point or if the catheter is really only intended for itty bitty babies.


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## Noelle610

Daneuse, don't feel bad about wanting "me time" and some sleep. YOU are important! I was speaking with a friend when I was just a few months postpartum and I told her I felt guilty for wanting things that were selfish and she reminded me that I was a person too, not just the baby.

I think bananaz had success with the Windi, hopfully she can comment.


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## megangrohl

So much for THAT! AGGGHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! FFS I am so angry. Tried the suggestion from the link bananaz gave. First she screamed in intense fear and agony for 20 minutes. Then she vomited YET AGAIN all over me, her dad, the crib sheet, her pajamas, the floor etc. She would not settle and it took me another 20 minutes to calm her and she finally fell asleep.

I guess this means I am co-sleeping for the next 2 years of my life and will be going to bed at fucking 8:00 every single night because that is when she starts waking up. I hate my life. I seriously am at my wits end and can't stop crying. Everything makes me so ANGRY. Rant over :(


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## daneuse27

megangrohl said:


> So much for THAT! AGGGHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! FFS I am so angry. Tried the suggestion from the link bananaz gave. First she screamed in intense fear and agony for 20 minutes. Then she vomited YET AGAIN all over me, her dad, the crib sheet, her pajamas, the floor etc. She would not settle and it took me another 20 minutes to calm her and she finally fell asleep.
> 
> I guess this means I am co-sleeping for the next 2 years of my life and will be going to bed at fucking 8:00 every single night because that is when she starts waking up. I hate my life. I seriously am at my wits end and can't stop crying. Everything makes me so ANGRY. Rant over :(

This may sound annoying because Im assuming youve tried this... but maybe if you slipped out of bed an hour or two after shes in a deep sleep? Also I doubt this will last two years! FOB's sisters son is 2, and he cries for15 mins in his crib at every naptime and then calls asleep. As Lily gets older and matures Im sure you guys will discover more solutions :thumbup:


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## megangrohl

daneuse27 said:


> megangrohl said:
> 
> 
> So much for THAT! AGGGHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! FFS I am so angry. Tried the suggestion from the link bananaz gave. First she screamed in intense fear and agony for 20 minutes. Then she vomited YET AGAIN all over me, her dad, the crib sheet, her pajamas, the floor etc. She would not settle and it took me another 20 minutes to calm her and she finally fell asleep.
> 
> I guess this means I am co-sleeping for the next 2 years of my life and will be going to bed at fucking 8:00 every single night because that is when she starts waking up. I hate my life. I seriously am at my wits end and can't stop crying. Everything makes me so ANGRY. Rant over :(
> 
> This may sound annoying because Im assuming youve tried this... but maybe if you slipped out of bed an hour or two after shes in a deep sleep? Also I doubt this will last two years! FOB's sisters son is 2, and he cries for15 mins in his crib at every naptime and then calls asleep. As Lily gets older and matures Im sure you guys will discover more solutions :thumbup:Click to expand...

Yes I have tried that. The problem is she moves around so much in the bed that I don't like her in my bed. But if I did have her in my bed she would happily sleep 12 hours in there.

It is separation anxiety, and it is very severe. I was told by our doctor that it can last into their 2nd year of life and sometimes 3rd. So yes we potentially do have another 2 years of this crap! She is a total mommy's girl and while that is sweet and everything I still get no sleep when she is in my bed because she is constantly moving around and wakes me up every 5 minutes.

I get kicked in the stomach, kneed and slapped in the face, punched in the face, headbutted, etc. It is NOT fun.


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## socitycourty

megangrohl said:


> So much for THAT! AGGGHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! FFS I am so angry. Tried the suggestion from the link bananaz gave. First she screamed in intense fear and agony for 20 minutes. Then she vomited YET AGAIN all over me, her dad, the crib sheet, her pajamas, the floor etc. She would not settle and it took me another 20 minutes to calm her and she finally fell asleep.
> 
> I guess this means I am co-sleeping for the next 2 years of my life and will be going to bed at fucking 8:00 every single night because that is when she starts waking up. I hate my life. I seriously am at my wits end and can't stop crying. Everything makes me so ANGRY. Rant over :(

just wanted to offer sympathy, it's basically the same here


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## MrsPear

Megan what you are going through its awful I'm sorry. I really feel for you and you deservea break soon. Joni is similar in that she will NOT sleep except on me. Not even next to me will do. Yet in the day she does not have bad separation anxiety- no more than the average baby. I don't want to bed share either, partly just because my oh works long hours plus overtime and on call and often literally the only time I see him is in bed.I know that sounds a selfish reason but I want to see him! Like you I'm either stuck bed sharing (in my case she is in my arms and I am sat up in the spare bed) and she just screams otherwise. I have not really tried any methods, soi can't give any advice sorry. It just sounds so awful for you, fingers crossed there is an epiphany soon.

As for Joni, yesterdayshe griped all day non stop which I thought nothing of but she has refused to be put down all night and now I see she has a temperature poor kid. So it wasn'ta good night sleep but even I (who likes complaining!!) can't be huffy when she isn't well x


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## Shadowy Lady

wow so much happened since i last posted. I just read the last two pages and wanted to say:

Megan - omg, what you're going through sound incredibly tough. I have no experience with it but wanted to offer hugs :hugs:

MrsPear - sorry to hear Joni is poorly:hugs: Hope the bug goes away soon.

Last night was ok. She went down at 7 pm as per usual and woke up at 1 am for a feed. She again only has 2 oz of ebm but this time no MOTN PARTY:happydance: She was asleep by 1:20 am. So i managed to sleep from 1:30 am till 6 am when she wanted to be up for the day. She's in her jumparoon now happily babbling away to her toys.

Really hope we passed the MOTN episodes for good:coffee:


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## megangrohl

Well after the puking episode she slept in her crib until 12 then she was asleep again 12:30 to 2. Then she came into our bed from 2 until 7. She was awake until 2:15 then again at 5:45 then slept again 6:15-7 so it is getting better. I am happy with half the night. But the entire night? No thanks. I am hoping we can keep it this way but with my luck she will have another crap night tonight. Argh! Can't wait until I go away tomorrow. Not that I want to get away from this but I need time to not be so angry and more refreshed because it is so frustrating! Especially since it is looking like it is either pick up put down like DF did lastnight or co-sleeping. Both of which suck, he had to lay on the couch in her bedroom lastnight to make sure she didn't wake up and even then she woke up 1.5 hours later.


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## Lady_Bee

Megan, sending you huge hugs :hugs: What you are dealing with sounds sooooo hard on you. I have no experience with nighttime separation anxiety, it sounds like an utter nightmare. :nope: so sorry.

MrsPear, aw no I hope your LO feels better soon.

Our night wasn't too bad! It took 45 minutes to get Alexander to sleep. No tears. Naps were good yesterday too. At bedtime I was able to actually leave the room for a while when he was playing and babbling to himself. I went back in when he got fretty and called out, because that usually means he is finally ready to sleep. So that was an improvement :thumbup: 

He woke from a nightmare (I think) a little while after I went to bed but luckily I wasn't asleep yet. He went back to sleep pretty fast after I calmed him down.

He then woke at 3 am for a bottle. Sigh. Wish we could get him off these nighttime bottles! I am watering the night bottle down to half strength currently. He drinks about 4-6 oz of it at the moment I plan to keep watering it down until it's just water... I read somewhere that other mums have had success doing it this way. Hope this will work for us.

Anyone got any other ideas on how to successfully get rid of the 3 am bottle?


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## Noelle610

Big hugs to those dealing with serious separation anxiety. I can't even imagine how tough that must be. C has a little, but nothing of the magnitude that some of you describe. 

Lady_Bee, Ferber's "Solving Your Child's Sleep Problems" has a great chapter on night weaning. He basically says to keep increasing the amount of water versus formula so that your LO will gradually shift their caloric intake and drink/eat more during the day. The hope is that when it becomes mostly water that they no longer wake for it. Perhaps that would work for you? We went cold turkey with Charlotte (with a dream feed), but that was mostly because her intake overnight kept increasing and it was really bad for her reflux. I probably wouldn't have taken that approach if she was just having a 3am bottle and settling nicely afterward.


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## Lady_Bee

Noelle610 said:


> Big hugs to those dealing with serious separation anxiety. I can't even imagine how tough that must be. C has a little, but nothing of the magnitude that some of you describe.
> 
> Lady_Bee, Ferber's "Solving Your Child's Sleep Problems" has a great chapter on night weaning. He basically says to keep increasing the amount of water versus formula so that your LO will gradually shift their caloric intake and drink/eat more during the day. The hope is that when it becomes mostly water that they no longer wake for it. Perhaps that would work for you? We went cold turkey with Charlotte (with a dream feed), but that was mostly because her intake overnight kept increasing and it was really bad for her reflux. I probably wouldn't have taken that approach if she was just having a 3am bottle and settling nicely afterward.

That sounds like pretty much what we are doing already :thumbup: I'll keep gradually watering it down and just see what happens. One night feed is really brilliant progress for us (recently he was having up to 3, argh!) but we are tying to eliminate the feed really. At his age I am pretty sure he doesn't NEED it anymore and it was just affecting his daytime appetite when he had proper milk feeds at night.


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## Noelle610

One night feed is good! He'll get there!


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## megangrohl

Lily was having 1 feed at night. I realized it was comfort so I slowly gave less each time. Down 1/2 an ounce to 1 ounce. I then was only giving 2-3 ounces and she stopped waking for it. I also jam pack her full during the day to help with that. She has 3 bottles a day and tons of solid foods (3 meals a day). Hope this helps.


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## daneuse27

Last night, she slept for 8 hours, woke for a feed, then went back down for 2 hours.

When she woke, I nursed her, changed her, then we played downstairs, I gave her infant cereal as per usual, then it was naptime.

Nap lasted 40 mins.

Then she played for about 90 mins, and got fussy so I tried to nurse her and put her down again.


Its been THREE HOURS. Three goddamn hours and shes STILL on my boob and hasnt taken a real nap!! Im about to just give up again. :( Another day on my boob for hours, no napping, and as usual no break for me. :(

Tell me this will get easier or offer any help! Please. Anyone?


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## megangrohl

I think it sounds like a sleep regression. Sometimes the 4 month regression starts later. It sounds alot like she is comfort sucking. All you can do is keep trying to get her to nap and honestly it does get better. It may not seem like it at the time but it will get better. Our first regression lasted about 4 weeks.


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## MiniKiwi

Daneuse - I'm so sorry but I can tell you, in my experience, it DOES get easier. It gets so much easier. My LO self settled last night, actually alone, proper self settling. I was shocked when I poked my head around the door. We had months of hell at nap and bed times, it was exhausting. So exhausting, so frustrating. The only thing I can't recommend enough is the moby. Big hugs for you, you are doing so, so well :hugs:

Megan - I'm sorry I have no advice at all. Just know we're all here for you with our internet hugs :hugs: I really hope you see an improvement soon


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## megangrohl

Thanks, it really helps to feel love from ppl I don't even know!


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## MrsPear

I feel the same Megan! And when I see despairing posts I do genuinely feel sad for the poster because I know that feeling so well.

Joni is sick at the moment with unexplained fever (probably viral). We spent all day at hospital doing tests yesterday but nothing conclusive. As she doesnt sleep well at the best of times I haven't really noticed a huge difference! But she is just sad and cuddly all day. I have to say I was impressed with our gp who took me veryseriously because I gave her calpol in the morning and so at the surgery she didn't even have a temperature but was just crying.I thought the gp would think im just neurotic but even just the crying was enough, she said if she's been miserable like that for 24 hours and has had a temperature we must go and be checked. So that made me feel like she was really listening when I said she doesnt normally just cry and cry, she's normally really interested in her surroundings at a new place like the surgery. So all in all Joni is sick and not sleeping great but no worse than normal! X


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## Shadowy Lady

So I have good and bad news. Good news is, Sofia was so tired that she slept at 6:30 pm and didn't wake up till......5:30 am!!!!! 11 friggin hours!!!

The bad news is, as I expected her to wakeup around 12-1, I was up from 1 am till she actually woke up, checking to ensure she was breathing. When she did wakeup, I jumped to feed her as my boobs were killing me. She barely ate anyway....she babbled away for 30 mins and then woke up at 6:30 to actually eat!

I really hope this is the new trend. I'm exhausted from the 3 hour sleep I had but still happy and hopeful :)


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## Sunnie1984

Hello ladies! 

AngelUK - I'm so glad CIO etc worked so well for you. Sometimes Seren is the same, she's better being left to grumble out or if we go in she gets worse, because she really wants to be asleep. 

Bananaz - I hope that she settles a bit easier soon. I guess all you can do is persevere, and know that eventually it won't last forever. Sorry the ssshhhing is not working, it's my only tool! :dohh:

Megangrohl - Sorry you had a really tough night a couple of nights ago :hugs: It must feel like it's never going to end, and unfortunately I bet the doctors comments have made it feel much worse. 

I'm sure you've already tried this too, but have you put the cot with the side down, next to your bed, and gradually shifted her an inch or so over towards it, and then into it? So that the cot is sort of part of the bed, but it would at least give you your own space? Although if you are already having some success in keeping her in her room, that may be a backwards step. :flower:

I hope you manage to get some decent sleep and properly relax for a couple of nights before you go back into the fray again. You never know, a couple of days away from you might do Lily some good too. 

Socitycourty - sorry you are in a similar situation to Megan. :hugs:

Mrspear - So sorry that Joni is ill. I'm so glad your GP took you seriously, she sounds fantastic. Poor mite, I hope she feels better asap. :flower:

Shadowy Lady - YAY for no MOTN party! I hope that is the end of them for you! Fingers and toes crossed! :happydance: And FANTASTIC that she STTN! How wonderful! Hopefully you're at the end of the sleep regression/WW19 etc. 


Lady Bee - Great night! I agree with everyone else about either watering down the feed or just giving him less ounces every couple of days or so, and hopefully he won't wake.

Daneuse - Could she be hitting a growth spurt? Hence the cluster feeding? Either that or comfot, will she take a dummy/pacifier? 


As for us, I think we are definitely into WW26 (based on the date she was born, not on her due date). She has spent the last two nights finding it tough to go down to bed, but once she's down she sleeps until about 3am and then every half hour or so I have to get up and go in and reposition her as she's scuffled into the corner and is stuck (even though she now sleeps on her tummy). 

On the plus side, she rolled tummy to back today, so that's what I think she's been working on in her sleep, and causing her to crash around the cot. 

Now if we could just figure out crawling..... :dohh:

Aaahhh well, it's better than crying hysterically every 1.5 hours, or every 15 mins from 4am and not knowing really why. At least it's a quick fix and she seems as desperate to go back to sleep as I am. 

Noelle, I hope Charlotte is having a good stretch of sleep! :flower:


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## Noelle610

Wonder Weeks are the worst! I'm so glad we only have a couple more until I don't have to worry about them anymore!

Go Sofia, STTN! That is great. Maybe an early bedtime works well for. It did for Charlotte at that age. Sorry you struggled to sleep Shadowy Lady. Hopefully S keeps this up and you can relax.

Charlotte is still shocking me and sleeping through or waking only once briefly. I'm loving it! I'm waiting for our 8/9 month sleep regression when it all goes to crap. Unfortunately I'm struggling to sleep again. It is nowhere NEAR as bad as it was before, but I find myself drifting in and out of light sleep at 2am or 3am until I get up. I have a follow-up with my doctor next week, so perhaps she can help tweak my medication a bit. From what I've read online, this seems to be common, as the meds start wearing off after you've been sleeping for 5 or 6 hours.


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## Lady_Bee

Shadowy Lady I'm sorry you had trouble sleeping even though your LO slept! Hate it when that happens! I hope she continues in that pattern though... 11 hours would be blissful on a regular basis ;)

Noelle sorry to hear you're having problems sleeping too. Hope you can sort something out. It must be frustrating! Go Charlotte though for sleeping so well!

I slept like crap last night too, I'm not sure why! I kept waking up for no reason whatsoever and freaking out about the baby being in the bed (he wasn't...).

Regardless, we are still doing really well with naps and night time. :happydance: I'm so proud of Alexander. We had a hiccup yesterday (lots of crying and complaining at afternoon nap time :() but he seemed to have sorted himself out by the evening and settled peacefully at bedtime in about 10 minutes without any fuss. Woke only once for his usual 3 am feed. Best he's slept in a long time!! 

Naps today were great and he settled wonderfully, though didn't sleep as long as I would have liked. I'm going to move bedtime earlier today to compensate because I think he may end up overtired.


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## lysh

Hey ladies...doing my best to catch up!
I hope most of you are at least getting some restful nights here! For the past two nights, my LO has only woken up once! I actually slept for 5 straight hours Thursday night and then last night for 6 straight hours!!!!! She even woke up for the day at 4:40 Friday morning and then 5 this morning (this is good for her!). I am hoping for another good night....her naps were thrown off today though, so we shall see! 
By the way, for those of you who started getting decent stretches, did you find you felt WORSE at first???? I felt like a truck hit me all day Friday and today was rough too. 

Just remember ladies (as I see some of us are at our wits end) that this is a phase and eventually it has to pass. I know it sometimes feels like this will be forever, but it won't. I remember feeling completely hopeless at times during the newborn months when my LO was colicky, needed to be held 24/7, and rarely slept. However, it did pass and things did get better. So all of this shall pass one day as well!

Okay, that is my positive outlook for the day! ha Let's see how long it lasts! :winkwink:


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## Larkspur

Hi everyone, I'm back! :dohh:

I've been trying to catch up with everyone's posts but am so sleep deprived that I'm sorry if I miss anyone! 

Bananaz, I think I'm going through a WW at the moment too (the week 22.5-26.5 one - OT, why do they call them 'weeks' when the damn things last for a month?!), so I feel your pain. :cry:

Daneuse, I think you and I are at exactly the same point. Rafe was sleeping badly around Christmas for about two weeks, which I thought was the four-month regression. He got better - was back to 1-2 wakeups and the occasional nine-hour stretch - but in the last 10 days it has all gone to hell. The worst he has ever been. Absolute maximum of two hours' sleep at a time at night, but sometimes only 45 minutes. I'm also on deadline for work so am desperately trying to get everything done while in a semi-conscious state.

Megan, things sound really tough for you too... I hope they improve. Afraid I have no suggestions as 'tough it out' is pretty much the only strategy I have right now. 

Shadowy, I'm so glad Sofia is sleeping better, I hope you catch up with her tonight! 

I have no help to offer anyone unfortunately, as I just needed a vent. OH is trying, but just doesn't get why I feel like caving his head in when 
a) he complains he 'didn't sleep too well either'. There's a material difference between stirring and waking briefly when the baby cries, then going back to snoring bliss, and being up 10 times to feed, comfort, cuddle, or change the baby for at least 15 minutes each time, 
b) he offers to do extra laundry/cooking/baby care time, but somehow translates that to doing a 50 percent share, meaning no actual extra help to me at all (or massively overestimates what he can actually do in a day, meaning half the stuff he promised to do just gets left for me when he goes off to work),
c) takes LO out so I can work, but pays absolutely no attention to nap times, and brings back a chronically overtired baby, or one who is in the middle of a nap at 5.30pm. :growlmad:


----------



## Noelle610

Lady Bee and Lysh, thrilled to hear about some positive strides!

Lark, I have been through the same thing with my DH. I basically did all of the night feeds for the majority of Charlotte's life yet he would complain about being "tired" (!!!). Men, I tell you.

Last night was awful for us! I am wondering if my poor baby is sick, overtired or a combination of both. She napped from 9:30am-10:30am, but her second nap gave us trouble - I put her down at 1:50pm and she woke at 2:20pm (usually sleeps 90 minutes for this one) because of a big poop and wouldn't go back to sleep. Super grumpy. Then I took her to see a friend and her baby and it turns out the friend's baby got ill after we got together. Anyway, I went out with friends and DH put Charlotte to bed at 6pm because she was so exhausted. I got home around 9pm and he said she had already woken THREE TIMES. That's highly unusual for. She's either been sleeping through or waking once around the 2am mark. She then woke again at midnight and took an hour to resettle. I gave her advil and she went back to sleep. She then woke again at 4am. Yuck.


----------



## mrsbeano

Noelle, Quinn & Charlotte have been texting each other. This tooth was really causing him a lot of pain last night :nope: He woke at 10, 1, 3 & 5 screaming. He settled with teething gel on a dummy and I kept up with the paracetamol & ibuprofen but he was a mess.

Today I WISH I liked coffee. Luckily he's remarkably chipper. 

Lark - I hear ya re your DH. When I was on mat leave I think he thought his contribution should consist of bathtime. YEAH BLOODY RIGHT.


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## Noelle610

mrsbeano said:


> Noelle, Quinn & Charlotte have been texting each other. This tooth was really causing him a lot of pain last night :nope: He woke at 10, 1, 3 & 5 screaming. He settled with teething gel on a dummy and I kept up with the paracetamol & ibuprofen but he was a mess.
> 
> Today I WISH I liked coffee. Luckily he's remarkably chipper.
> 
> Lark - I hear ya re your DH. When I was on mat leave I think he thought his contribution should consist of bathtime. YEAH BLOODY RIGHT.

Ugh these crazy kids! They better start sending each other messages about STTN :winkwink:


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## Shadowy Lady

Sunnie - hugs to u...hoping Serene leaves her exploring for daytime.

Lysh - so happy you're getting some rest mama!and yes when Sofia sleeps good i don't sleep at all coz i'm waiting for her to wakeup :/

Lark - OMG sorry to hear Rafe is back at it again. I hadn't seen u here so i imagined you were blissfully asleep. And you have a right to be mad at DH. I would be if mine didn't help with night feeding.

Last night there was no sttn, booooo! But she did sleep at 7 pm, woke up at 12:30 for a feed, went back down and is still asleep at 7:20. I slept in the basement and had an 8hour stretch!!!! OMG i can't even type it coz i worry i jinx it lol. It would be nice if Sofia sttn but at least i know now she's capable of it abd she'll get there sooner or later (hopefully sooner).


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## bananaz

Larkspur said:


> Bananaz, I think I'm going through a WW at the moment too (the week 22.5-26.5 one - OT, why do they call them 'weeks' when the damn things last for a month?!), so I feel your pain. :cry:

I know! The last Wonder "Week" was 5 weeks long! They should really just point out the weeks when babies _aren't_ going through some crazy developmental shift.


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## bananaz

*Noelle* - Sorry you had a difficult night :( I hope it was just a random blip and she'll be back to sleeping well tonight.

*mrsbeano*- Poor baby, and poor you! Which tooth is it?

*Shadowy* - That sounds like a pretty nice night both for you and baby! I'm glad you got some rest.


The past few nights Elsie has been having an hour-long MOTN party after her 3am feeding. It hasn't been too bad though because she never invites me to the party. Mainly she just rolls around squealing to herself, and it actually worked out pretty well because she then ended up sleeping in until 6:30 or 7. This morning, however, she had her MOTN party at 1:30am and got up for the day at 5:30 :coffee:

Anyway, I think I'm finally giving up on nursing her down for naps. Today I tried putting her straight in her crib after her nap routine and she cried for maybe 30 seconds and then started settling herself, vs. the 20+ minutes of crying she had been doing after I tried to nurse her down. It's really sad for me because it was the only time I got to snuggle with her but clearly it just wasn't working anymore :nope:


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## Sunnie1984

Noelle - definitely see your doctor about tweaking your dose, there is no point taking anything at too low a dose, as you will see less and less benefit. :flower:

Charlotte must have something bothering her, it doesn't seem normal that she could have such a huge setback from sleeping well the night before. She could be overtired, but if so, being low key today should get her back on track. :thumbup:

Lady Bee - Don't worry, I think it is totally normal to have a few set backs when you are trying to change LO's patterns, eventually he'll become consistent. You are doing so well :thumbup:

Lysh - Fantastic that you are getting some decent sleep. Yes it's always normal to feel worse as you start catching up on sleep, I think your body stops running off adrenaline (in survival mode) and suddenly realises how sleep deprived you are! :haha:

Larkspur - Sorry you are here. We're in WW26 fussy period too (although it feels more like stormy period, so I hope it passes soon!). I agree, we seem to have skipped the sunny period from WW19 and are straight back into the messy stages. 

Grrr OH's can be such a pain sometimes, hugs to you and I hope you can explain to him (as calmly as possible) why he is such an ass :winkwink:

Mrsbeano - I'm sorry you are also having a rough time, I hope the tooth gets through asap for you. I don't like coffee either, it makes no sleep so tough! 

Shadowy Lady - Boo to no STTN, but yay for the 8 hour sleep! One night feed and back to sleep is great considering you are just out of the MOTN parties. Long may it continue, and I hope she STTN's again for you tonight. 

Bananaz - Oh no, I'm sorry you are suffering MOTN parties too! I guess at least she doesn't need you, although i guess you can still hear her, and so are awake? 

It's great she can self settle for naps, but I know what you mean about no more snuggles - they grow up so fast! 



Well.... a bit of a mixed bag here today. Seren slept pretty well last night, woke at 4am to be repositioned, and again at 6am before up for the day at 6:30am. Unfortunately she had pooped during the night at some point, which I hadn't spotted because she went immediately back to sleep each time she had gotten herself jammed about the cot. 

She hasn't pooped in the night since she was about 2 weeks old, I think it's the change in formula that has done it, as I think it's much easier for her to "go" on the new formula (go figure, the comfort should stop constipation). The formula change, combined with a bigger teat size and infacol in the bottle seems to have done the trick, not nearly as much of a problem with wind now. 

Seren hasn't tried to roll front to back today, but I think it's because she's had a particularly grouchy day. She can't settle to anything, and has been listless and not that interested in what is going on. 

She's cried a lot for really no reason today, possibly a bit of teething as she was drooling a lot, but nothing to make her really uncomfortable. 

To make things even worse, we are in a nap transition! :dohh: She used to do 2-2.5 hours awake with a 30 minute nap, and repeat. As she slept 12 hours and was fine during the day, it was clearly all she needed So she had about 5 naps per day. 

Suddenly she is doing: 

1.5 hours awake then 30 minute nap
2.5 hours awake then 1.5-2 hours nap
3 hours awake and 45 minute nap
1.5 hours awake and bed. 

Which is great because she's getting one proper nap, and the last one is a full sleep cycle. 

But we've had to shift her bedtime back. It was originally 7:30pm (according to the EASY routine), but with her naps, she could only manage until 6:30pm but then slept to 6:30am. Now she seems to want to do 7:30pm to 6:30am. 

Although I think she may have slept later this morning if she hadn't filled her nappy.

Also a bit weird about putting her down to bed. She wants her dummy while sitting with me for a bit (almost as if she's winding down) and then she pushes it out of her mouth herself, I pick her up, she puts her thumb in her mouth and I can put her down on her tummy and she'll sleep. 

It's ok, but I'm used to her wanting to be put down so she can self settle. Not that I'm complaining really, I get cuddles for once! :happydance:

I can cope with waking and repositioning, even several times a night, but hoping that they will be after 4am so I can get a solid chunk of sleep in. 

Good luck ladies, I hope tonight is kind to all of us!


----------



## bananaz

Sunnie1984 said:


> Well.... a bit of a mixed bag here today. Seren slept pretty well last night, woke at 4am to be repositioned, and again at 6am before up for the day at 6:30am. Unfortunately she had pooped during the night at some point, which I hadn't spotted because she went immediately back to sleep each time she had gotten herself jammed about the cot.
> 
> She hasn't pooped in the night since she was about 2 weeks old, I think it's the change in formula that has done it, as I think it's much easier for her to "go" on the new formula (go figure, the comfort should stop constipation). The formula change, combined with a bigger teat size and infacol in the bottle seems to have done the trick, not nearly as much of a problem with wind now.
> 
> Seren hasn't tried to roll front to back today, but I think it's because she's had a particularly grouchy day. She can't settle to anything, and has been listless and not that interested in what is going on.
> 
> She's cried a lot for really no reason today, possibly a bit of teething as she was drooling a lot, but nothing to make her really uncomfortable.
> 
> To make things even worse, we are in a nap transition! :dohh: She used to do 2-2.5 hours awake with a 30 minute nap, and repeat. As she slept 12 hours and was fine during the day, it was clearly all she needed So she had about 5 naps per day.
> 
> Suddenly she is doing:
> 
> 1.5 hours awake then 30 minute nap
> 2.5 hours awake then 1.5-2 hours nap
> 3 hours awake and 45 minute nap
> 1.5 hours awake and bed.
> 
> Which is great because she's getting one proper nap, and the last one is a full sleep cycle.
> 
> But we've had to shift her bedtime back. It was originally 7:30pm (according to the EASY routine), but with her naps, she could only manage until 6:30pm but then slept to 6:30am. Now she seems to want to do 7:30pm to 6:30am.
> 
> Although I think she may have slept later this morning if she hadn't filled her nappy.
> 
> Also a bit weird about putting her down to bed. She wants her dummy while sitting with me for a bit (almost as if she's winding down) and then she pushes it out of her mouth herself, I pick her up, she puts her thumb in her mouth and I can put her down on her tummy and she'll sleep.
> 
> It's ok, but I'm used to her wanting to be put down so she can self settle. Not that I'm complaining really, I get cuddles for once! :happydance:
> 
> I can cope with waking and repositioning, even several times a night, but hoping that they will be after 4am so I can get a solid chunk of sleep in.
> 
> Good luck ladies, I hope tonight is kind to all of us!



Hopefully the night pooping is a temporary thing! Elsie did it for the first time ever a couple weeks ago and thankfully she hasn't done it since. I think sometimes when they are transitioning to new food their digestive systems have an adjustment period.

Anyway, I'm glad that her daytime sleep is starting to consolidate and she's getting a proper nap in! You may find that she's ready to drop the third nap at around 6 months, at which point her sleep will hopefully consolidate further and maybe you'll even get two good naps out of her.


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## MrsPear

Well it's 20:37 and Joni is in bed...I've got the standard evening anxiety...I know I can write that here and everyone will know exactly the feeling I mean :flower:


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## Noelle610

MrsPear - I know the feeling all too well!

Last night was awful. I can't even count how many times Charlotte was up. I'm not sure what's going - she was moaning and trying to get comfortable like she wanted to be sleeping, but couldn't. I thought it might be teething, but I gave advil and it didn't help. Can't feel any teeth on the gum line either. 

I'm really frustrated and tired, but trying to keep a good attitude. I know now that all of this phases - good or bad - do pass eventually. Just keeping my fingers crossed that this one is a matter of days and not months!


----------



## bananaz

Noelle610 said:


> MrsPear - I know the feeling all too well!
> 
> Last night was awful. I can't even count how many times Charlotte was up. I'm not sure what's going - she was moaning and trying to get comfortable like she wanted to be sleeping, but couldn't. I thought it might be teething, but I gave advil and it didn't help. Can't feel any teeth on the gum line either.
> 
> I'm really frustrated and tired, but trying to keep a good attitude. I know now that all of this phases - good or bad - do pass eventually. Just keeping my fingers crossed that this one is a matter of days and not months!

Oh no, is it possible she has another ear infection? Hope this passes quickly :hugs:


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## Noelle610

bananaz said:


> Noelle610 said:
> 
> 
> MrsPear - I know the feeling all too well!
> 
> Last night was awful. I can't even count how many times Charlotte was up. I'm not sure what's going - she was moaning and trying to get comfortable like she wanted to be sleeping, but couldn't. I thought it might be teething, but I gave advil and it didn't help. Can't feel any teeth on the gum line either.
> 
> I'm really frustrated and tired, but trying to keep a good attitude. I know now that all of this phases - good or bad - do pass eventually. Just keeping my fingers crossed that this one is a matter of days and not months!
> 
> Oh no, is it possible she has another ear infection? Hope this passes quickly :hugs:Click to expand...

You know, I had considered that, but she is drinking/eating fine and has no fever. Usually when she's ill she has both of those symptoms. If this keeps going on I will definitely have her checked out!


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## MrsPear

Sorry you had such a bad night Noelle. I hope tonight is better for you. Sometimes I do think they just throw a random curveball in so hopefully it is that and not a real regression.

I'm fingers crossed for a good night tonight. I am SO tired. Not that I track it anally or anything (ha), but Joni slept for 5 hours on 16th January and since then has woken every 2 hours at least (I think? May have done three hours a couple of times). Normally it's more like every 30 minutes or so. I am SO ready for a good sleep!!! Usually she sleeps 5 hours once every 2 weeks on average (again, not that I'm anally tracking it haha) so I don't know what she's playing at!!

Like you Noelle I'm just thinking positive today, so I'm not letting my sleep deprived state get to me.


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## Noelle610

MrsPear, hoping the universe hears us and we get rest tonight! 

I think it's good to stay positive no matter how overwhelming this is. A wise poster on this forum once told me, they ALWAYS grow out of this. It's not like our kids will wake up every 30 minutes when they're three. We'll get through it. Hopefully we'll look back and laugh, thinking, "How did we function on so little sleep?".


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## Shadowy Lady

Noelle - sorry about the crappy night. Its sounds to me though that she may be sick or something. Either way hope it passes soon :)

MrsPear - Hope you see more 5 hour stretches soon. I need to learn from you and stay positive.

Sofia did her usual thing last night. Slept at 7 pm, up for a quick feed at 12:30 am, then down until 6:00 am. Except this time I fed her and put her back in her crib coz I was tired and we both went to sleep till 8 am.

I'm thinking her sttn last week was just a one off, boooo! DH thinks she's gonna get there again soon. I hope so! I'm sleeping downstairs tonight coz I wanna make sure I sleep enough. Tomorrow is my birthday and I don't wanna be exhausted and crying during the day (won't tell u how old I'll be coz u're prob all younger than me)


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## Noelle610

I hope Sofia gives you a STTN for your bday!

You know, I thought perhaps she might not be feeling well. We visited my best friend and her 6 month old over the weekend and the 6 month old came down with a virus after we left. Maybe Charlotte has that, even though she hasn't had any obvious symptoms. I imagine babies can feel "off" just as we do? 

I just wish I knew WHY she was waking. I of course don't mind getting up with a sick baby, because you know they need you and you know it's temporary. But man oh man I don't want another sleep regression. They seem to go on FOREVER in our household when they do occur.


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## AngelUK

Shadowy Lady Hope you have a lovely day tomorrow and I can almost guarantee you that I am older than you lol

Sorry Noelle that you had a bad night again :( Hope tonight will be better again. I remember that at that age approx Dominic started sleeping badly again too. I mean, he had been sleeping better for about 2 or 3 weeks and then it went to pot again. Might have been the 8 months sleep regression. Is Charlotte past that point? I never really kept track of wonder weeks since for us the 4 months sleep regression lasted for a good 4 months lol 
Hope it was just a fluke for Charlotte xxx


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## Noelle610

AngelUK said:


> Shadowy Lady Hope you have a lovely day tomorrow and I can almost guarantee you that I am older than you lol
> 
> Sorry Noelle that you had a bad night again :( Hope tonight will be better again. I remember that at that age approx Dominic started sleeping badly again too. I mean, he had been sleeping better for about 2 or 3 weeks and then it went to pot again. Might have been the 8 months sleep regression. Is Charlotte past that point? I never really kept track of wonder weeks since for us the 4 months sleep regression lasted for a good 4 months lol
> Hope it was just a fluke for Charlotte xxx

Yup, we are at 8.5 months! My worst fear is that this is sleep regression. The 4 month one lasted forever for us, too! How long did the 8 month one last for you?

Here's hoping it's a fluke, but it may not be! Guess all you can do is wait it out and try to keep good routine in the meantime.


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## MrsPear

Fingers crossed for a birthday lie in shadowy!! Xx


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## AngelUK

Noelle it is hard to say cause when I say he slept better I mean he did like 3 hours at a stretch (so still not brilliant or what other babies seem to do) and then back to up every hour. Plus as you know we then did the sleep training so that might have put an earlier stop to things. But roughly it lasted about a month I think. Certainly not a lot less than a month. 
But you know I am not sure that the regressions really apply to us. Cause my boys were born 3 weeks early and were only 3 months and a half or so when regression hit. So with adjusted age they were roughly only 3 months old. So I stopped checking the chart thinking that what ever they (or rather only Dominic) went through was just not the same as other babies lol But I seem to remember you saying that the chart was quite accurate for Charlotte?


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## kosh

only just realised this is the thread you meant angel! you are right, why is this still in BC and we've been moved to the parenting section?
anyway, just to say that there's a few of us sleep deprived mummies around the corner :winkwink:
my case: my 1year old wakes every 2hrs _all_ night. he's never done more than a 4 hr stretch. never. and at his worse he used to wake every 45min :wacko::sleep:

sleepy :dust: to all


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## Sunnie1984

bananaz said:


> Hopefully the night pooping is a temporary thing! Elsie did it for the first time ever a couple weeks ago and thankfully she hasn't done it since. I think sometimes when they are transitioning to new food their digestive systems have an adjustment period.
> 
> Anyway, I'm glad that her daytime sleep is starting to consolidate and she's getting a proper nap in! You may find that she's ready to drop the third nap at around 6 months, at which point her sleep will hopefully consolidate further and maybe you'll even get two good naps out of her.

Thanks! Yes it seems to have been a temporary thing, she's not done it since. Although the formula switch does seem to be making a big difference, so glad we tried it (so glad someone on B&B mentioned it!) 

Yep sleep seems to be consolidating a little, although it's still a bit hit and miss. I just wish it wasn't in the middle of a WW as it's hard to separate which is which and how to deal with them. :dohh:



Noelle610 said:


> Last night was awful. I can't even count how many times Charlotte was up. I'm not sure what's going - she was moaning and trying to get comfortable like she wanted to be sleeping, but couldn't. I thought it might be teething, but I gave advil and it didn't help. Can't feel any teeth on the gum line either.
> 
> I'm really frustrated and tired, but trying to keep a good attitude. I know now that all of this phases - good or bad - do pass eventually. Just keeping my fingers crossed that this one is a matter of days and not months!

Oh no! After all of her progress! I'm so sorry you are having a rubbish time :hugs:

Are you anywhere near a WW? I think you said you'd just left one, but thought I'd check. I really hope it's not the dreaded 8 month sleep regression, that's all you need! 

Mrs Pear - Anxiety is just awful, I hope it doesn't plague you too badly. I hope you got a good night last night. 

Shadowy Lady - At least she's being consistent? I know it's not STTN but at least you are looking at solid chunks of sleep (hopefully for both of you). She definitely will get there, she won't be 12 and waking during the night (or if she is, she won't need you to deal with her :haha:)

Happy Birthday of course! Have a wonderful day and I hope you get a STTN for a present from Sofia. 



We're doing ok at the moment, but definitely in a WW. She's suddenly stopped moving about as much, and it feels like she's regressed a bit, just like the book says should happen. She's rolled tummy to back twice in one day and hasn't done it since. Stopped rolling back to front too really. 

She woke twice the night before last to be repositioned (DH then put her on her back - cue 20 mins of her trying to turn over and getting mad before resettling :dohh:)

Last night she slept until 5:30am and then the shuffling started, but a good night in comparison to previous ones. 

Still a nightmare in the day, everything little things turns into crying like the world has just ended. 

I have to keep reminding myself that to her, that's exactly what it looks like :nope: It's difficult to not get frustrated, I do find myself rolling my eyes whenever she starts shrieking! 

I just hope this is WW26 starting early, and not WW19 finishing late, as that means we've got another WW just around the corner. I assume it's not because she had a week where she suddenly started doing new things, and then she's just now regressed again, so I am crossing my fingers that this is WW26 and then I can relax for a bit!

Plus I think separation anxiety is setting in. She now cries if I'm out of her sight for a bit (depending on her patience), gets upset being in her car seat (I think because she can't see me) and needs cuddles before naps and bed. 

Thankfully it doesn't seem too severe though, I can't imagine how Megan and Mrspear are handling it! You two ladies are saints! 

Bananaz, how was your night? 

x


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## MrsPear

Sunnie you are right it is difficult not to get frustrated, but as you say babies have no context so to them things look very scary! It's good to remember that, although it's hard when something seems so obvious to you!

Apart from at night Joni doesn't have terrible separation anxiety unless she notices me from across the room when someone else is holding her. So it could be worse!

As for sleep, aaarghhh! That's all I really have to say! Joni doesn't sleep anymore, I think I need to hand her over for scientific research because she's like a wonder human that's always charged up and ready to go no matter what! It's not like I can say what times she wakes up because she's just continually stirring.

I'm practising getting her to sleep next to me at the moment, last night she absolutely screamed for about 45 minutes, I felt awful, but in my head I just kept thinking, how bad can it really be for her? I'm still constantly cuddling her and patting her and shusssssshing her, and she's right up against me in the bed, isn't that enough? I can't hold her actually in my arms every night! That's not me trying to be mean and not adjust my life for her, but I can't possibly sleep sat upright with her in my arms forever! I'm so uncomfortable! And it isn't safe! So after 45 minutes we both fell asleep, but she did spend quite a bit of the night in my arms as she just wouldn't settle. I need to pick a night and then just do it all night so she understands that that's how we sleep now. And then, at some point, I'll reintroduce the cot......


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## lozza1uk

Guys can I just offer you some hope?

My LO has not slept for more than 5 hours in a row since birth, and that only happened once every couple of weeks from when he was over 6 months. He only ever did 5 hours at the start of the night, then he'd wake every 1-2 hours after that, and after 45 minutes by the end of the night. He always did the first stretch in his cot (bf to sleep then transferred) then I'd bring him into our bed and co-sleep (or not sleep!).

I've done nothing differently but in the last month he suddenly went 7 hours a few times, the. This week did 9 hours twice in a row, then 1 horrible teething night where he woke every hour, then 10 hours, then last night slept 6.45pm to 6.55am!!!! He's never done this before and while he cried out a few times in the night, he got himself back to sleep. I did go in at midnight as he cried for a bit longer and he was stood up, but I laid him down and he was asleep in minutes. 

I've always fed him to sleeP as nothing else worked (rocking used to, but he's getting heavy now), and I've done zero sleep training - I kePt meaning to start but wimping out, or he'd have a cold or a tooth. He just seems to literally this week learnt that sleeping is good! He even fell asleep yesterday in the pushchair without his snooze shade on (the buggy and snooze shade is the only way I can get a nap).

So it's taken 10 months of really awful nights, 9 moths of which DH slept in the spare room but I honestly think its suddenly clicked. Ok so it's only been a week but fingers crossed. 

Hope this offers some hope to some of you, and really hope your LO's start sleeping for you soon xx


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## Noelle610

Angel, I totally understand. With the exception of a few weeks around 3 months, 3 hours was a good stretch of sleep for Charlotte prior to 6 months. I can't tell you how many nights I just wished for 3 hours of straight sleep! 

Kosh, I always relate to your posts! I'm sorry to hear Gael still isn't giving you any longer stretches of sleep. That's bound to change as he gets older. I'm sure you are ready for some rest as well. 

Sunnie, I looked at my calendar and I guess we are still technically in WW37. I was just reading Ask Moxie (great blog on baby sleep if anyone hasn't read it!) and she mentions that just because we can't see the progress doesn't mean a baby isn't growing. It doesn't necessarily have to be crawling or something obvious. 

MrsPear, a lot of the ladies on here have dealth with severe separation anxiety. It seems like that may be a contributing factor to a lot of our sleep troubles, especially as our babies are around the 6-9 month mark. 

Lozza, we LOVE success stories. Most of the moms of formerly bad sleepers tell us that they really do just grow out of it. It's so helpful when you've tried a lot of things that don't work and you really just need to let go.

So last night was weird.... Charlotte was a mess before bed, so overtired. She had poor naps during the day. She screamed through her bath which is unlike her (she usually loves it). She fell promptly asleep at 6:30pm. Save a bit of stirring around 8:30pm, she is still sleeping now at 5:30am. I feel tentatively happy. She did have some runny poops at daycare and puked before bed, so I'm wondering if perhaps her tummy had been bothering her. Anyway, I didn't sleep much and I'm feeling concerned about my insomnia again. I think the unpredictability makes it rear it's ugly head. I got up several times to check on her.


----------



## MrsPear

lozza1uk said:


> Guys can I just offer you some hope?
> 
> My LO has not slept for more than 5 hours in a row since birth, and that only happened once every couple of weeks from when he was over 6 months. He only ever did 5 hours at the start of the night, then he'd wake every 1-2 hours after that, and after 45 minutes by the end of the night. He always did the first stretch in his cot (bf to sleep then transferred) then I'd bring him into our bed and co-sleep (or not sleep!).
> 
> I've done nothing differently but in the last month he suddenly went 7 hours a few times, the. This week did 9 hours twice in a row, then 1 horrible teething night where he woke every hour, then 10 hours, then last night slept 6.45pm to 6.55am!!!! He's never done this before and while he cried out a few times in the night, he got himself back to sleep. I did go in at midnight as he cried for a bit longer and he was stood up, but I laid him down and he was asleep in minutes.
> 
> I've always fed him to sleeP as nothing else worked (rocking used to, but he's getting heavy now), and I've done zero sleep training - I kePt meaning to start but wimping out, or he'd have a cold or a tooth. He just seems to literally this week learnt that sleeping is good! He even fell asleep yesterday in the pushchair without his snooze shade on (the buggy and snooze shade is the only way I can get a nap).
> 
> So it's taken 10 months of really awful nights, 9 moths of which DH slept in the spare room but I honestly think its suddenly clicked. Ok so it's only been a week but fingers crossed.
> 
> Hope this offers some hope to some of you, and really hope your LO's start sleeping for you soon xx

Yes it does offer me hope, especially the fact you say you did nothing differently, I think we all spend too long worrying that we are 'getting it wrong' when the truth is that it just hasn't 'clicked' yet with our babies. :flower: As always, it will pass with time. I'm glad you're getting some sleep, we are in the same position now with OH and me sleeping separately, it's so hard isn't it. You deserve some peace at last! xx


----------



## MrsPear

Noelle, yes unpredictability is the worst! Seems like Charlotte definitely may have been up during the night with tummy ache. But if she's managed a pretty smooth night since then I don't think you have any reason to despair. Hopefully just a one off blip due to a tummy gripe xxx


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## Shadowy Lady

hi girls, so I'm a year older :haha: I have no idea how Sofia slept coz DH was in charge and I slept from 9 pm till 6 am :thumbup:I came upstairs then and they were both asleep. I started pumping coz my boobs were killing me and Sofia woke up at around 8 am.

We just got back from birthday brunch and DH still hasn't told me how last night was, lol! But I'm happy that I feel great on my birthday....

I'm on the iphone now will login later to see how you're all doin:hugs:


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## Noelle610

So glad you got a nice rest! I DREAM of 9pm to 6am!


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## kosh

Noelle610 said:


> Angel, I totally understand. With the exception of a few weeks around 3 months, 3 hours was a good stretch of sleep for Charlotte prior to 6 months. I can't tell you how many nights I just wished for 3 hours of straight sleep!
> 
> Kosh, I always relate to your posts! I'm sorry to hear Gael still isn't giving you any longer stretches of sleep. That's bound to change as he gets older. I'm sure you are ready for some rest as well.
> 
> Sunnie, I looked at my calendar and I guess we are still technically in WW37. I was just reading Ask Moxie (great blog on baby sleep if anyone hasn't read it!) and she mentions that just because we can't see the progress doesn't mean a baby isn't growing. It doesn't necessarily have to be crawling or something obvious.
> 
> MrsPear, a lot of the ladies on here have dealth with severe separation anxiety. It seems like that may be a contributing factor to a lot of our sleep troubles, especially as our babies are around the 6-9 month mark.
> 
> Lozza, we LOVE success stories. Most of the moms of formerly bad sleepers tell us that they really do just grow out of it. It's so helpful when you've tried a lot of things that don't work and you really just need to let go.
> 
> So last night was weird.... Charlotte was a mess before bed, so overtired. She had poor naps during the day. She screamed through her bath which is unlike her (she usually loves it). She fell promptly asleep at 6:30pm. Save a bit of stirring around 8:30pm, she is still sleeping now at 5:30am. I feel tentatively happy. She did have some runny poops at daycare and puked before bed, so I'm wondering if perhaps her tummy had been bothering her. Anyway, I didn't sleep much and I'm feeling concerned about my insomnia again. I think the unpredictability makes it rear it's ugly head. I got up several times to check on her.

Thanks noelle. Funily enough last night he did 4hr, then 2x 3hs and a final 2hr stretch!!! :happydance: ok, admitedly he was fussing for almost one hr after the second waking but still that the best he's done in 7months!!
Yet I have NO expectations for tonight.....:winkwink:


----------



## Noelle610

kosh said:


> Noelle610 said:
> 
> 
> Angel, I totally understand. With the exception of a few weeks around 3 months, 3 hours was a good stretch of sleep for Charlotte prior to 6 months. I can't tell you how many nights I just wished for 3 hours of straight sleep!
> 
> Kosh, I always relate to your posts! I'm sorry to hear Gael still isn't giving you any longer stretches of sleep. That's bound to change as he gets older. I'm sure you are ready for some rest as well.
> 
> Sunnie, I looked at my calendar and I guess we are still technically in WW37. I was just reading Ask Moxie (great blog on baby sleep if anyone hasn't read it!) and she mentions that just because we can't see the progress doesn't mean a baby isn't growing. It doesn't necessarily have to be crawling or something obvious.
> 
> MrsPear, a lot of the ladies on here have dealth with severe separation anxiety. It seems like that may be a contributing factor to a lot of our sleep troubles, especially as our babies are around the 6-9 month mark.
> 
> Lozza, we LOVE success stories. Most of the moms of formerly bad sleepers tell us that they really do just grow out of it. It's so helpful when you've tried a lot of things that don't work and you really just need to let go.
> 
> So last night was weird.... Charlotte was a mess before bed, so overtired. She had poor naps during the day. She screamed through her bath which is unlike her (she usually loves it). She fell promptly asleep at 6:30pm. Save a bit of stirring around 8:30pm, she is still sleeping now at 5:30am. I feel tentatively happy. She did have some runny poops at daycare and puked before bed, so I'm wondering if perhaps her tummy had been bothering her. Anyway, I didn't sleep much and I'm feeling concerned about my insomnia again. I think the unpredictability makes it rear it's ugly head. I got up several times to check on her.
> 
> Thanks noelle. Funily enough last night he did 4hr, then 2x 3hs and a final 2hr stretch!!! :happydance: ok, admitedly he was fussing for almost one hr after the second waking but still that the best he's done in 7months!!
> Yet I have NO expectations for tonight.....:winkwink:Click to expand...

That's wonderful! I totally understand having no expectations. I am the same. I hope for the best, but expect the worst! My girl is completely unpredictable and will go from sleeping well to waking all night long. These babies are crazy, gues they have to keep us on our toes :haha:


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## Sunnie1984

Mrspear - Exactly! I forget that things we see everyday are completely normal to me but a whole new experience for her! 

I think you are definitely going about it the right way in trying to get her to sleep next to you at first, then you can gradually move her across the bed, and hopefully eventually into her own cot. 

Although, and I hate to say this, but I think you are right, I think you have to be completely consistent for her to learn that she doesn't sleep in your arms anymore :hugs: 

I think a few tough nights should get you a long way, and honestly, you can't possibly be getting any rest now when you are sleeping upright! Have you tried foam earplugs? They don't block out the sound, so you'll still be able to hear her crying, but it deadens the noise a little - I find them really useful when Seren gets really overtired and screams for hours, it means I'm more patient. :flower:

Good luck, I hope it works for you. Also, be ready for a regression just when you feel you are making progress - I read somewhere that it always happens once they learn new habits, and if you stick at it, it'll go back to the new habits. 

Lozza - Thanks, it does help to know there is light at the end of the tunnel! 

Noelle - I hope you are nearly out of WW37, also i hope that is all it is and Charlotte starts sleeping really well again. Although it looks like it may have been her tummy after all, I'm glad you got a good night from her last night. Sorry you didn't get the same sleep! :hugs:

Shadowy Lady - Well that's a great night for you if nothing else! Happy Birthday! 

Kosh - Yay great progress! Long may it continue! 


Great night here. She slept 7pm-6am with only one crying waking at 8pm but resettled quickly. She seems a little bit more settled today, so I'm hoping the worst of the WW is over for now at least. Although possibly that means its WW19 rather than WW26 as she's only 23 weeks tomorrow. 

famous last words though, I'm sure she'll have a melt down shortly! 

xxx


----------



## AngelUK

I'll ask here too as there are more ppl reading this it seems. 
Does anyone have any tips on how to get babies to sleep longer in the morning? Dominic started moaning at 3:30 but dropped again till 4:40. I switched the sound off on the monitor so that OH wouldn't wake but stared at the screen willing him to go back to sleep. And I think he might have dozed for 15 minutes cause he went quiet, I turned the sounds back on and I drifted off too. But at 5:20 he started crying and not the kind that means I'll drop off again in a mo. I went in to give the dummy and left but that made him sob! So I went back in and picked him up. So I gave up the hope of them sleeping longer and got them changed and they are playing in their beds now but ugh! They woke yesterday morning at 5:10 or 5:20 too. For me that is still night time! WAHH! Any ideas?


----------



## Sunnie1984

AngelUK said:


> I'll ask here too as there are more ppl reading this it seems.
> Does anyone have any tips on how to get babies to sleep longer in the morning? Dominic started moaning at 3:30 but dropped again till 4:40. I switched the sound off on the monitor so that OH wouldn't wake but stared at the screen willing him to go back to sleep. And I think he might have dozed for 15 minutes cause he went quiet, I turned the sounds back on and I drifted off too. But at 5:20 he started crying and not the kind that means I'll drop off again in a mo. I went in to give the dummy and left but that made him sob! So I went back in and picked him up. So I gave up the hope of them sleeping longer and got them changed and they are playing in their beds now but ugh! They woke yesterday morning at 5:10 or 5:20 too. For me that is still night time! WAHH! Any ideas?

Honestly? 

I think the only thing that has worked for us is ignoring her as long as possible. Eventually she began lengthening the time she slept, and eventually got past the really early wake time. It's not a quick reaction, but it does work eventually! 

So essentially doing what you are already doing and hope it begins to lengthen. :hugs:

Sorry, not much help for you! :flower:


----------



## AngelUK

Yeah I would totally leave him to it for a little longer if it weren't for Sebastian also waking and then also crying and then me pitying the neighbours. We must be hell to live next to lol. But thank you for the advice. :)


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## Noelle610

Unfortunately I agree with Sunnie! I treat anything prior to 6am as a night waking. Charlotte used to wake around the 5am mark too, but now it's more like 6:45. Which feels like sleeping in!


----------



## Lady_Bee

Alexander is having a bit of teething trouble this week. I can see the offending teeth poking through so hopefully this won't take too much longer! It is affecting his sleep for sure. He's still doing really well at bedtime and nap times, but back to waking 4 times a night. :coffee: Ahhhh well you win some and you lose some...


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## Noelle610

Lady Bee, don't despair! There will always be bumps in the road. Sounds like you have made a lot of progress.


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## Lady_Bee

Oh yes definitely making progress! Settling him in the cot was magic really. He is now quite easy to get back to sleep in the night. I am soooo not missing walking for 45 minutes with him in the MOTN only to have him wake right back up a minute after I put him down. All it takes now is a gentle rub on the back and telling him it's time for night night. :thumbup:


----------



## Noelle610

Lady_Bee said:


> Oh yes definitely making progress! Settling him in the cot was magic really. He is now quite easy to get back to sleep in the night. I am soooo not missing walking for 45 minutes with him in the MOTN only to have him wake right back up a minute after I put him down. All it takes now is a gentle rub on the back and telling him it's time for night night. :thumbup:

That is great!

I sometimes get frustrated when we have a lot of night wakings when Charlotte is teething, sick, hitting a developmental milestone, etc.... But I always remind myself that it's a phase. It always passes.


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## Shadowy Lady

Sunnie - super jealous of your great night! Hope there are no more WW's for you guys :D

Noelle - hope you have a better night today. Are you out of your meds or is it just Charlotte's recent wakings that's keeping u up?

Sofia's night was same old same old. Down at 7 pm, up for a feed at 1 am, down again till 6:30 am (when she was up for the day). I had a terrible night though for some reason. Couldn't go to sleep after 1 am until closer to 4 :/ I guess there's a rule against me sleeping well for more than one night. If I have a good night the next one should be s*&%^$*#!! :'(


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## Noelle610

Shadowy Lady, thanks for checking in - Charlotte STTN the past two nights :) She did, however, throw up at some point last night (found vomit in her bed this morning, poor kid). She was also off her formula last night and this morning, so I think her tummy is bothering her and that probably contributed to the recent night wakings. 

I totally hear you on not being able to sleep. I really wish we weren't dealing with that! I think the recent night wakings through me off, and truthfully I have been feeling a little anxious this past week. I'm still on my medication, but I may need to increase my dosage. My doctor did mention that it takes about 6 weeks for the meds to level out and at that time they can correctly evaluate whether you're taking the right amount.


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## bananaz

Those who've travelled with your LOs, how did they sleep while away? I have an out-of-town interview on Friday and we're leaving today so she's going to be sleeping someplace new for 3 nights. For my last interview she was still swaddled in her rocker so it wasn't that big of a change, but this time she's going to be in her pack'n'play which she's never slept in overnight before. This is probably one of the most important interviews of my life so I really need her to let me get some sleep.

Anyway, last night was not great. She slept from 6:30pm to 1am and then she was up and down every 20-60 minutes until 5am, when she finally went back to sleep until 6:30am. I'm not sure what her deal was - she just kept fussing and then standing up and crying for a moment and then lying back down and fussing some more. Patting her back did absolutely nothing to soothe her so I ended up going in and feeding her twice and that seemed to help her settle longer but she was still whining intermittently. :coffee:


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## Noelle610

bananaz said:


> Those who've travelled with your LOs, how did they sleep while away? I have an out-of-town interview on Friday and we're leaving today so she's going to be sleeping someplace new for 3 nights. For my last interview she was still swaddled in her rocker so it wasn't that big of a change, but this time she's going to be in her pack'n'play which she's never slept in overnight before. This is probably one of the most important interviews of my life so I really need her to let me get some sleep.
> 
> Anyway, last night was not great. She slept from 6:30pm to 1am and then she was up and down every 20-60 minutes until 5am, when she finally went back to sleep until 6:30am. I'm not sure what her deal was - she just kept fussing and then standing up and crying for a moment and then lying back down and fussing some more. Twice I ended up going in and feeding her and that seemed to help her settle longer but she was still whining. :coffee:

We took Charlotte to San Antonio for Thanksgiving and upstate New York for Christmas. In San Antonio, she didn't sleep that well. She woke maybe 3 times at night, but that was typical for her at that time, so no worse that usual. In usptate New York, she slept great. She had been having these long night wakings prior and traveling seemed to snap her out of it. She slept through or woke once. It was great.

Things that helped, I think (she also slept in a Pack n Play): 
*Bring a crib sheet that has already been used and smells like "home"
*Bring a lovey if she has one
*Bring white noise machine if you use it
*Do bedtime routine almost exactly as you do it at home
*Ensure that naps happen during the day if at all possible to keep her from getting overtired/overstimulated

Sorry to hear about you tough night. Charlotte will do someting similar from time to time and I usually think it's because something is bothering her that I can't put my finger on - tummy, dry throat, etc.


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## bananaz

Noelle610 said:


> We took Charlotte to San Antonio for Thanksgiving and upstate New York for Christmas. In San Antonio, she didn't sleep that well. She woke maybe 3 times at night, but that was typical for her at that time, so no worse that usual. In usptate New York, she slept great. She had been having these long night wakings prior and traveling seemed to snap her out of it. She slept through or woke once. It was great.
> 
> Things that helped, I think (she also slept in a Pack n Play):
> *Bring a crib sheet that has already been used and smells like "home"
> *Bring a lovey if she has one
> *Bring white noise machine if you use it
> *Do bedtime routine almost exactly as you do it at home
> *Ensure that naps happen during the day if at all possible to keep her from getting overtired/overstimulated
> 
> Sorry to hear about you tough night. Charlotte will do someting similar from time to time and I usually think it's because something is bothering her that I can't put my finger on - tummy, dry throat, etc.

Thanks for the tips! It's encouraging to hear that travelling actually helped Charlotte's sleep. In my fantasyland, Elsie is going to be so tired from the drive today that tonight she won't even wake for her normal feeding and then she'll get used to having those calories during the day instead so she'll start sleeping through from here on out. A girl can dream right? :haha:


----------



## Noelle610

bananaz said:


> Noelle610 said:
> 
> 
> We took Charlotte to San Antonio for Thanksgiving and upstate New York for Christmas. In San Antonio, she didn't sleep that well. She woke maybe 3 times at night, but that was typical for her at that time, so no worse that usual. In usptate New York, she slept great. She had been having these long night wakings prior and traveling seemed to snap her out of it. She slept through or woke once. It was great.
> 
> Things that helped, I think (she also slept in a Pack n Play):
> *Bring a crib sheet that has already been used and smells like "home"
> *Bring a lovey if she has one
> *Bring white noise machine if you use it
> *Do bedtime routine almost exactly as you do it at home
> *Ensure that naps happen during the day if at all possible to keep her from getting overtired/overstimulated
> 
> Sorry to hear about you tough night. Charlotte will do someting similar from time to time and I usually think it's because something is bothering her that I can't put my finger on - tummy, dry throat, etc.
> 
> Thanks for the tips! It's encouraging to hear that travelling actually helped Charlotte's sleep. In my fantasyland, Elsie is going to be so tired from the drive today that tonight she won't even wake for her normal feeding and then she'll get used to having those calories during the day instead so she'll start sleeping through from here on out. A girl can dream right? :haha:Click to expand...

Haha, you really never know! We dropped our dream feed over the holidays because we were lazy. I just figured I'd feed if Charlotte woke for it. She didn't most nights and woke around 5am or so a few other nights. During that time she started taking more solids during the day. Coincidence? Maybe, but it worked for us!


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## mrsbeano

Quinn slept great when we went to Turkey at 4 months. He sttn for the whole week which he didn't do ever before or consistently since. I wouldn't fret too much x


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## socitycourty

Anyone heard from Libby? hope she'sdoing ok.

my lo has had a cold and also teething troubles this week....so not very good sleep


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## Noelle610

socitycourty said:


> Anyone heard from Libby? hope she'sdoing ok.
> 
> my lo has had a cold and also teething troubles this week....so not very good sleep

You know, I was just thinking of Libby this morning. I haven't heard from her and hope this means that her LO is STTN!

I hate teething. First, I find it so hard to determine when they're teething - It's impossible to know until after the tooth pops through. Second, it causes some of the most random symptoms. I hate to over medicate and assume everything is teething, but it's hard not to.


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## Shadowy Lady

I know I hope we haven't heard from Libby coz she's sleeping. She totally deserves it :)


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## socitycourty

I have given motrin a few times over the past couple days because my LO had a cold and I'm pretty sure is teething....it sucks! I feel so bad for her but at the same time the clingy-ness and lack of sleep is making me nuts


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## Shadowy Lady

Hope all u ladies are doing well....and hoping this thread is quiet coz u're all asleep :D

We had sort of an sttn last night. She was down from 7 pm to 4 am when she wanted her bottle. I managed to sleep from 8 pm to 4 am with help from Adevent. I'm kinda worried that I only sleep well when drugged up though. But it's better than not sleeping.


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## MrsPear

Shadowy just do whatever you need to do to get some sleep and when you feel a bit better refreshed you'll be able to think straighter and decide when to stop taking the meds. At the moment (as with all of us!) it doesn't matter how you get the sleep, just that you do.

Joni was sick last night, we had to hold her so we could aim it into a bucket...if it's not one thing the next!! I think recently she's been sleeping 1 hour max without needing at least some sort of settling, usually more like 15 minutes. I think I should get a prize!!

(She has however just taken her longest ever nap (2 hours) on me, and for an hour of that I was asleep too. Felt so good!!)


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## Boo44

Hi ladies! I too hope you're not posting as you're busy sleeping!!

Looking for some advice re Jack. Does anyone know how to stop him stirring every sinle morning at 5.45?!! There is no way I can complain about his sleeping especially not in a thread like this (!!) but every morning he wakes and stirs at that time. He seems warm enough and there's no specific noises to wake him like heating etc. He sort I of fussed and squirms a lot. I know he's not ready to wake as if I give him his dummy he'll usually then sleep again until around 7.30. Tbh if it stays like this forever then I'll take it! But I find it so hard to sleep after then. 
His morning nap has recently gone from 9.30 to 10 or 10.30. I'm still struggling with how many naps he needs and their timings. He is still needing a power nap late on otherwise he's completely overtired for his bed time bottle

Sorry if this seems really trivial to you all!


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## Noelle610

Shadowy lady that is great. I worry too about not being able to sleep without meds, but I figure I need sleep (at least when Charlotte does!) to function and be a good mom and I'll worry about that later.

MrsPear that sounds so rough. I'm really sorry. I feel like all of these babies will sleep better when it's summer and they're not ill all of the time.

Charlotte has still be sleeping well, but is sick. I spent an hour long night waking with her yesterday while she projectile vomitted, poor kid. I'm tired today and DH is at home with her, as he's got the bug too. Here's hoping for a speedy recovery.


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## Boo44

MrsPear said:


> Shadowy just do whatever you need to do to get some sleep and when you feel a bit better refreshed you'll be able to think straighter and decide when to stop taking the meds. At the moment (as with all of us!) it doesn't matter how you get the sleep, just that you do.
> 
> Joni was sick last night, we had to hold her so we could aim it into a bucket...if it's not one thing the next!! I think recently she's been sleeping 1 hour max without needing at least some sort of settling, usually more like 15 minutes. I think I should get a prize!!
> 
> (She has however just taken her longest ever nap (2 hours) on me, and for an hour of that I was asleep too. Felt so good!!)

You definitely do need a prize! And this just makes me feel even more silly for posting! Hope Joni gets better soon, the bucket thing sounds awful x


----------



## Noelle610

Boo44 said:


> Hi ladies! I too hope you're not posting as you're busy sleeping!!
> 
> Looking for some advice re Jack. Does anyone know how to stop him stirring every sinle morning at 5.45?!! There is no way I can complain about his sleeping especially not in a thread like this (!!) but every morning he wakes and stirs at that time. He seems warm enough and there's no specific noises to wake him like heating etc. He sort I of fussed and squirms a lot. I know he's not ready to wake as if I give him his dummy he'll usually then sleep again until around 7.30. Tbh if it stays like this forever then I'll take it! But I find it so hard to sleep after then.
> His morning nap has recently gone from 9.30 to 10 or 10.30. I'm still struggling with how many naps he needs and their timings. He is still needing a power nap late on otherwise he's completely overtired for his bed time bottle
> 
> Sorry if this seems really trivial to you all!

I wish I could help with this but unfortunately we have the same issue! DH and I have to get up at 5:30am for work, so it's not much of a bother for us. Charlotte usually stirs around this time and will often cry out, but I rarely go to her since she seems to return to sleep within 10 minutes or so. She will then sleep until 6:45 or 7. I think it's pretty common. 

Do you think Jack might be ready to move to two naps, at like 10 and 2?


----------



## MrsPear

Boo44 said:


> MrsPear said:
> 
> 
> Shadowy just do whatever you need to do to get some sleep and when you feel a bit better refreshed you'll be able to think straighter and decide when to stop taking the meds. At the moment (as with all of us!) it doesn't matter how you get the sleep, just that you do.
> 
> Joni was sick last night, we had to hold her so we could aim it into a bucket...if it's not one thing the next!! I think recently she's been sleeping 1 hour max without needing at least some sort of settling, usually more like 15 minutes. I think I should get a prize!!
> 
> (She has however just taken her longest ever nap (2 hours) on me, and for an hour of that I was asleep too. Felt so good!!)
> 
> You definitely do need a prize! And this just makes me feel even more silly for posting! Hope Joni gets better soon, the bucket thing sounds awful xClick to expand...

To be honest I think that if you're tired you're tired and it's immaterial how many times you woke up/did something to settle your baby. I would absolutely HATE those early mornings too, the earliest Joni wakes up for the day and can't be resettled is about 6:30 so I can't complain on that score! x


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## MrsPear

Since I'm constantly complaining about Joni I thought it would be nice to post a picture and show you guys that she's awesome really even though she doesn't like to sleep :flower: This was from a month ago.
 



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## Boo44

Noelle610 said:


> Boo44 said:
> 
> 
> Hi ladies! I too hope you're not posting as you're busy sleeping!!
> 
> Looking for some advice re Jack. Does anyone know how to stop him stirring every sinle morning at 5.45?!! There is no way I can complain about his sleeping especially not in a thread like this (!!) but every morning he wakes and stirs at that time. He seems warm enough and there's no specific noises to wake him like heating etc. He sort I of fussed and squirms a lot. I know he's not ready to wake as if I give him his dummy he'll usually then sleep again until around 7.30. Tbh if it stays like this forever then I'll take it! But I find it so hard to sleep after then.
> His morning nap has recently gone from 9.30 to 10 or 10.30. I'm still struggling with how many naps he needs and their timings. He is still needing a power nap late on otherwise he's completely overtired for his bed time bottle
> 
> Sorry if this seems really trivial to you all!
> 
> I wish I could help with this but unfortunately we have the same issue! DH and I have to get up at 5:30am for work, so it's not much of a bother for us. Charlotte usually stirs around this time and will often cry out, but I rarely go to her since she seems to return to sleep within 10 minutes or so. She will then sleep until 6:45 or 7. I think it's pretty common.
> 
> Do you think Jack might be ready to move to two naps, at like 10 and 2?Click to expand...

I think so, yes. 3 naps seems a lot for an almost 8 month old! Although a 2pm nap would rarely last beyond 3 which means 4.5 hrs before his bed. I'm wondering whether to completely mix it up and switch to two naps and put him to bed at an earlier bed time... If I thought it would help his early wakings I'd do it tomorrow!


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## lhancock90

Just offering :hugs: to you all. My youngest and finally started sleeping well, its been rough! Xx


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## daneuse27

aww Joni is adorable!! :)


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## Noelle610

Boo44 said:


> Noelle610 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Boo44 said:
> 
> 
> Hi ladies! I too hope you're not posting as you're busy sleeping!!
> 
> Looking for some advice re Jack. Does anyone know how to stop him stirring every sinle morning at 5.45?!! There is no way I can complain about his sleeping especially not in a thread like this (!!) but every morning he wakes and stirs at that time. He seems warm enough and there's no specific noises to wake him like heating etc. He sort I of fussed and squirms a lot. I know he's not ready to wake as if I give him his dummy he'll usually then sleep again until around 7.30. Tbh if it stays like this forever then I'll take it! But I find it so hard to sleep after then.
> His morning nap has recently gone from 9.30 to 10 or 10.30. I'm still struggling with how many naps he needs and their timings. He is still needing a power nap late on otherwise he's completely overtired for his bed time bottle
> 
> Sorry if this seems really trivial to you all!
> 
> I wish I could help with this but unfortunately we have the same issue! DH and I have to get up at 5:30am for work, so it's not much of a bother for us. Charlotte usually stirs around this time and will often cry out, but I rarely go to her since she seems to return to sleep within 10 minutes or so. She will then sleep until 6:45 or 7. I think it's pretty common.
> 
> Do you think Jack might be ready to move to two naps, at like 10 and 2?Click to expand...
> 
> I think so, yes. 3 naps seems a lot for an almost 8 month old! Although a 2pm nap would rarely last beyond 3 which means 4.5 hrs before his bed. I'm wondering whether to completely mix it up and switch to two naps and put him to bed at an earlier bed time... If I thought it would help his early wakings I'd do it tomorrow!Click to expand...

I think you sometimes have to move bedtime a little earlier when you transition to 2 naps, at least temporarily. Charlotte can now do about 4 hours between last nap and bed, so it's made it easier!


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## Noelle610

Joni is precious!!!


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## AngelUK

Joni is very very cute! Typical, while we look like haggard hags with the lack of sleep (at least I tend to), our LOs look cuter every day ;)

Boo I have the same problem as you. My boys seem to think 5:20 is when the day should start! Uhm NO! Mind you, sometimes I am lucky and they drop off again like today and yesterday when they slept till 6:45. But like you I also find it hard to go back to sleep then. I am thinking not going to them immediately and letting them chat or whine a bit and hope for the best, i.e. that they will drop off again, is all we can do really. I am hoping it will make an impression on them in as much as they will understand that no, mummy doesn't expect them to wake then lol. And do you know, when they do sleep on they usually then wake again with smiles etc, while, if they insist that I get them up at 5:20, they usually greet me with sobs and wails. Who's a tired baby then?! Meh!


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## MrsPear

AngelUK said:


> Joni is very very cute! Typical, while we look like haggard hags with the lack of sleep (at least I tend to), our LOs look cuter every day ;)
> 
> Boo I have the same problem as you. My boys seem to think 5:20 is when the day should start! Uhm NO! Mind you, sometimes I am lucky and they drop off again like today and yesterday when they slept till 6:45. But like you I also find it hard to go back to sleep then. I am thinking not going to them immediately and letting them chat or whine a bit and hope for the best, i.e. that they will drop off again, is all we can do really. I am hoping it will make an impression on them in as much as they will understand that no, mummy doesn't expect them to wake then lol. And do you know, when they do sleep on they usually then wake again with smiles etc, while, if they insist that I get them up at 5:20, they usually greet me with sobs and wails. Who's a tired baby then?! Meh!

Haha haggard is definitely the word to describe how I feel most days, I sometimes feel like my eyes have disappeared somewhere into my head they get so small!!


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## aliss

Last night was brutal, I think we're teething, I lost count at 10 wakeups by midnight... I think I'm in the club officially now, HAHA!!! :) I know it's teething cause he's a gummy monster in the day, absolute cranky pants, miserable little thing... which he is not, normally.


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## Noelle610

aliss said:


> Last night was brutal, I think we're teething, I lost count at 10 wakeups by midnight... I think I'm in the club officially now, HAHA!!! :) I know it's teething cause he's a gummy monster in the day, absolute cranky pants, miserable little thing... which he is not, normally.

Yup, you're official! And I'm sorry for it.


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## Sunnie1984

Lady Bee - I hope the teething disappears soon and you can go back to making such good progress. 

Shadowy Lady - Glad Sofia is being consistent, but boo for you not sleeping. Definitely keep taking the medication, it's what it is there for, you can worry about sleeping without it once Sofia is happily STTN. :thumbup: 

Noelle - Glad Charlotte is STTN - although I hope she's not too sick, and you don't find any more vomit in her bed :haha:

Again boo for you not sleeping, when are you at the doctors? 

Bananaz - Probably too late for this, but DD slept fine when we travelled, although that was before the 4 month regression and WW's kicked in! I hope your interview goes well, I'm sure you'll be great! :flower:

Socitycourty - :hugs: for the cold and the teething, I hope it passes soon! 

Mrspear - So sorry Joni was so sick! Glad she's taking a long nap today to give you some rest. 

Boo44 - I'm afraid I have that problem too, I think just keep giving the dummy for now, and eventually his body clock will realise it's not wake time yet. 

As for the naps, I'd let him have the two naps and then put to bed earlier and see if it helps, you can always return to the catnap if needed. 

Aliss - :hugs: Have you already left WW12? I just wonder whether that is also making things worse? With Seren I mistook WW12 for teething I think. I hope it stops soon so you can get some sleep. 



And for me..... :haha:

Well I think WW19 is over finally (definitely not WW26 as Seren can't do any of the things on the list of WW26 developmental skills). But not the end of the sleep problem. 

The night before last she woke at 12:30am screaming blue murder and then decided to have a MOTN party for an hour. I put her down after 30 minutes, as she kept putting her nose to mine and staring at me, so I was not helping her go back to sleep. :haha:

Then she woke twice to be repositioned, and then ANOTHER MOTN party at 4:30am before awake for the day at 6am. I finally got out of bed at 6:30am in defeat. 


Then last night we got evacuated from our building because some moron lit a barbeque in his flat :dohh: so we had to get Seren out of the bath and traipse down 104 flights of stairs (we're in a really tall building) and then wait around for an hour while the fire brigade sorted it out. 

So that threw her bedtime out until about 8:30pm as she was hungry from all the excitement. 

Then she woke every 2 hours because she now has a cold and can't breathe! 

DH was on nights last night, but I find that now she doesn't just need a feed, that he tries to see to her quickly, and go back to bed, which just isn't working at the moment. So it takes even longer than normal to get her back to sleep. 

I got up with her at 7:15am (last wake up was at 5:40am) and left DH in bed to catch a bit of a lie in, but I'm thinking of going back to bed when he gets up. :sleep:

To top it off, Seren has given her cold to me, so I feel like crap on top of all the lack of sleep. 

I'm going to go out to get some kind of plug in for her room to help her breathe and I'm going to prop her cot again tonight.


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## MrsPear

Sunnie all I can take in from that is that someone lit a bbq in a flat??!!!!! Has he never heard of carbon monoxide?!!! What a total moron.

Plus 104 flights of stairs. Phew. You got your daily workout then! 

Hope you get well and get some sleep soon xxxx


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## Shadowy Lady

Sunnie - eeeek the motn parties are exactly what we went through with Sofia 2 weeks ago or so. They lasted 8 nights so tryst me there is light at the end of the tunnel. 

Aliss - oh no! I'm sorry to see you here then. But then again we all love your advice/stories :)

MrsPear - Joni is beautiful; you are very blessed :)

I went out with my girlfriends for a belated birthday celebration (first time i was out since giving birth) and got home at midnight finding everyone asleep. I had told DH previously to wake me up for the 5 am feeding but i just woke up now and it's 7:30 am and both of them are asleep. I'm guessing either she slept through or she had one night waking so DH gave her the bottle we did have.

I do hope this is the start of things getting better. I feel ok today and thinking of hitting the gym soon. Hope you ladies all had a great night.


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## Noelle610

Sunnie, those MOTN parties are killer! I do think they're mostly developmental and pass quickly.

Shadowy Lady, I am so pleased to hear that things are looking up for you :)

Charlotte is really ill with the tummy flu at the moment. Projectile vomit everywhere. Reminds me of her newborn days, good times! She refused to nap more than 20 minutes at a time yesterday when DH was with her at home and that's unusual for her. She would fall asleep in is arms and he would try to put her down, she would wake up. She loves to be held when she's sick. Our night wasn't terrible though. I put her down early, at 6pm, and she woke at 10pm to puke and then cuddle. She then slept until 5am, so a nice long stretch for both of us, when she woke up for a cuddle. Then up for the day at 6:30am. She fell asleep in my arms at 8am and is sleeping in her crib now, so who knows what the day will bring. I'm just gonna let her sleep wherever, whenever.


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## libbylou

Will try to play catch up later...been MIA lately. LO is getting really grabby with the computer so I can't really use it when she's awake and my meds are making me so tired that I end up in bed early every night

Sleep has been so-so
Naps are going pretty well...she's generally doing two one hour naps a day 
Night is not so great...she tends to have a 4-6 hour stretch at the beginning of the night and then after that she might decide to have a MOTN party or she just wakes constantly, like every hour or two. She doesn't always need me, she will often resettle after a few mins of crying...but she cries just enough to wake me up constantly :wacko:

On the bright side, LO's personality has been absolutely sunny the past week. She's generally a high needs fusspot, but she's been pretty happy all week and while she's still having meltdowns, they are understandable meltdowns and aren't happening constantly.


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## socitycourty

glad you're doing ok!


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## Noelle610

Libby, glad you are okay as well :)

Sounds like a nice stretch at the beginning of the night.... Hopefully the rest of the evening will catch up soon! I find those wakings when they resettle themselves to be hard, too, because they do really wake you and you're just "waiting". So glad to hear your LO has been sunny! Isn't that just the best? Certainly makes the sleepless nights a tad easier.


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## Sunnie1984

Mrspear - Joni is just such a cutie! 

And yes, BBQ in a flat! Idiots! Apparently a spark blew off the balcony and set fire to someone's garden furniture on the balcony below :dohh:

So no real risk to us, but a pain in the backside anyway! It was about a month's worth of daily workout, my calves are still in agony! 

Shadowy Lady - I hope our MOTN parties pass soon, although we didn't have one last night which is a plus! Glad you got some girlie time and that sleeping still seems to be consistent for Sofia. 

Noelle - So sorry that Charlotte is ill, poor little thing! Although she's sleeping so well considering she's so sick. I hope it passes quickly for you both. 

Libbylou - Glad naps are going well, hopefully it'll translate into good sleeps too. Good on her for the resettling though, even though it keeps you awake. 

I love sunny periods, it just makes the bad sleeping a little easier to bear. 


We did great last night. I put a bowl of eucalyptus oil in Seren's room to help her sleep. She woke up at 10:30pm looking for her dummy (DH put her to bed with it in :dohh: which never works!). So I had to sit with her with the dummy in until she settled, then took it off her and she found her thumb instead, and back into bed. 

Then she STTN until 6:30am then napped again until 7am. 

She seems to only be able to do 1.5 hours before her morning nap at the moment. I'm hoping that will move out again once she's caught up on some sleep. Although with WW26 around the corner I doubt it! 

x


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## Boo44

Hi all, Jack has developed a dry cough the past few days which seems to be waking him at 6.20 on the dot and he'll then cough the whole time! As soon as he's up it goes :( Does anyone have any tips for helping this cough? I've raised the head of his bed slightly. 

Sunnie would eucalyptus oil in a bowl help do you think?

He's also taken to having a dirty nappy at this point as well the past 2 mornings :( Just feel like there's always something...


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## AngelUK

Boo you didn't ask me but I think a humidifier with some ethereal oils could well help the cough. As for waking at 6:20, is it possible that he hears the alarm of a neighbour at the time? And when did he usually wake? My boys usually have a dirty nappy when waking but I gather that them having a poo several times a day isn't the norm so I cannot really advise you there. xx


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## Boo44

Thanks angel! Noelle mentioned a humidifier before, do you know where I can get one in the UK? 
Jack tends to sleep until around 7.30 usually, often with one wake up around 6.30 where I either leave him or pop his dummy in. Recently he started waking at 5.45!! Usually he'd go back to sleep with his dummy then too. Since he's had this (very mild) cold the past 2 days he's slept til 6.20-6.30 which is better! But then coughs the whole time. I can tell he's still tired as he's moaning for sleep. And actually I think he is still mainly asleep when he's coughing! 

With the poo thing though this morning I've changed him and brought him into our bed. He'd usually try and escape but this morning I'm getting a gorgeous cuddle and he's gone back to sleep! It's 8am now. I'm wide awake as he's still coughing intermittently lol

Funny you should say that about the poo, since solids Jack has gone at least twice a day! And 2 days ago he went 6 times!!! Now this new habit of pooing when he wakes early. Argh x


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## AngelUK

I guess the poo thing is different for Jack if you BF? With formula it is normal that babies go several times a day, so I am kinda used to it but 6 times is a lot! He probably thought it would be a lovely treat for you :haha:
As for humidifiers, I don't have one but am thinking of getting one. My first port of call is always Amazon as I like reading the reviews. But this time I have to say I am not convinced one way or the other. Very mixed reviews on the whole. Maybe the other ladies have a good recommendation? For now I guess I am going for a old fashioned hanging radiator humidifier like this one from Robert Dyas.. I remember that my mum used this for us when we were kids :)


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## MrsPear

Boo I think Argos do humidifiers.

Sunnie, that's great that you got a good night in the end!!

Libby it sounds like you're still not really getting a good stretch of sleep at night even if you don't have to resettle you're still being woken, I hope it gets better soon. A happier baby when awake though is a good thing!

As for me...meh! I'm thinking of switching to formula, I know people say it doesnt work but I'll give anything a go right now x


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## Boo44

Thanks guys! Angel, jack has been on formula since 6 weeks so maybe this poo thing is just normal lol. He's been exploring a lot of different foods lately so that could explain it. Plus doesn't teething cause funny poos?! 

Thanks for the humidifier tips everyone. Have been to boots and got him some baby tixylix and will try the olbas in his bath tonight x


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## bananaz

Haven't had a chance to read through everyone's posts yet but things are worse than ever here :nope:

The first night of our trip she went to bed an hour and a half late but in spite of that she only woke up twice at her normal times and then got up for the day at 6:30 so that was okay, but from there everything went in a massive downward spiral. The next night (the one before my interview) I tried to put her to bed on time but it took over an hour of screaming to get her to sleep and then she woke up every 3 hours before getting up for the day at 5:30am. The night after that was pretty much the same except she decided to get up at 5am. We got home yesterday so I was hoping things would improve but instead she woke every 1-2 hours and then got up for the day at 4:45.

To make things even worse I haven't been able to settle her at night without feeding her. When we were travelling we were staying with people in an apartment with neighbors on either side so I couldn't just let her scream while I tried to pat her to sleep so now I'm terrified that she's gotten used to having all these night feedings and it's going to take me months to get rid of them again.

I seriously can't function right now. I just want to run away :cry:


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## megangrohl

So, lastnight was my breaking point and DF and I decided that is it, we are doing CIO and we did. Please don't judge, for those reading this thread. We tried every single other method and nothing worked and we've been going through this for 9 months. I just wanted to update with the progress we have made as CIO seems to be the best thing that has happened for our situation and our baby.

What happened to make us start CIO is she wanted to cosleep at 6:30 and I can't do that. I even had her in the crib and held her hands but she was properly freaking right out and would not settle. Usually if it is her being scared she will calm down with me or DF doing that and she wasn't so I knew she was just mad she couldn't sleep in our bed. 

Not only that, but I can't go to bed that early and I can't have her repeatedly kicking, punching, kneeing me in the face, chest and stomach. Bouncing on the bed and having her head hit the wall and waking up etc. That and she is constantly moving around and I am an incredibly light sleeper so I wasn't getting any rest, which in my opinion a mother needs to be a good mom, and she needs to be broken of this habit too.

Lastnight was the first night. We put her into her crib at 6:45 and she cried until 7:45, she vomited a little bit from being too upset as she has in the past but it was a tiny amount more like a little bit of spit up.

She slept 7:45 to 2:30 and woke for 5 minutes and whimpered and put herself back to sleep until 4:30. The same thing, another 5 minutes and she slept until 5:30 and the same 5 minutes and then she was up for the day at 6:30 as usual.

Today for her first nap, she was in her crib at 8:30 this morning. She whimpered, not crying, talked a bit and fell asleep at 9:00 and slept until 9:45. This was better than we expected because lastnight was 1 hour and she normally is held, bounced and cuddled to sleep. We are doing none of that anymore. She needs to learn to self settle and I know she is capable of sttn because she will do it if she is in bed with us.

So all in all it was not too bad of an experience other than the 1 hour of crying which I read is usually worse for the parents to experience than the child. She was happy as ever at 6:30 this morning and excited to see us. So I know that this is a work in progress and is not affecting her in a totally bad way as some people think it does.

I just wanted to give some people some hope if they are doing CIO as a last resort. I find that a routine really helps, as babies like routine. But consistency I would say is the most important factor of any kind of sleep training.

Sorry for the novel I really needed to let it all out! Hope everyone elses babies are sleeping OK!


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## AngelUK

No judgement from me! Just :hugs: and good luck! :)


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## MrsPear

Bananaz- I'm sorry it's so rough. Did your interview go okay? I think if you get back into your old routine of not feeding to sleep and are consistent with it then it shouldn't take long to go back to normal- Noelle said that she went cold turkey with the night feeds after reintroducing them for a while, and it worked for her second time round. Our girls are swapping tips it seems!

Megan, we all understand what it's like!! Sometimes I'm simply at breaking point. Last night I had to go into another room and have a scream when Joni wouldn't settle at 2am- OH said he thought there was a wild animal upstairs haha. I think you did the right thing. I have found that in 'real life' as opposed to BnB, people are much more open to sleep training and it's the generally accepted method to get your child to sleep through the night.

Magic sleep dust to everyone tonight!!! xxx


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## Noelle610

Bananaz, I am so sorry. Do you think the traveling just really threw Elsie off or do you think this might be the 8/9 month sleep regression? Will you consider sleep training? 

Megan, good for you! I know you were feeling really desperate and it sounds like night 1 was a success. I would just stick with it. Consistency is key. If you can give it a week, I bet things will vastly improve. Give lots of cuddles during the day so that Lilly knows you are there for her, but she learns to sleep on her own :)


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## MrsPear

Well this is it!! From tonight I am shhh-patting (or whatever it is called) joni to sleep. I put her down after feeding and a cuddle but not quite asleep and it took 45 minutes to stop her crying but we got there. I have put a chair by the cot. I am not saying I won't feed her or go to her in the night, just that when she goes to sleep, it's in her cot not my arms. I would bed share but to be honest she is so against sleeping anywhere except my arms that I think I may as well put her in the cot and she'll be just as happy/unhappy there as next to me. To be honest I thought it would take longer to get her to sleep this evening (I planned to reassess after 90mins and psyched myself up to keep calm till then haha) so I feel very encouraged. Wish me luck!!!


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## Boo44

Good luck Megan sounds like night 1 was successful. I really hope this vastly improves things for you, you deserve it! X


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## Noelle610

MrsPear said:


> Well this is it!! From tonight I am shhh-patting (or whatever it is called) joni to sleep. I put her down after feeding and a cuddle but not quite asleep and it took 45 minutes to stop her crying but we got there. I have put a chair by the cot. I am not saying I won't feed her or go to her in the night, just that when she goes to sleep, it's in her cot not my arms. I would bed share but to be honest she is so against sleeping anywhere except my arms that I think I may as well put her in the cot and she'll be just as happy/unhappy there as next to me. To be honest I thought it would take longer to get her to sleep this evening (I planned to reassess after 90mins and psyched myself up to keep calm till then haha) so I feel very encouraged. Wish me luck!!!

Good luck! For many, sleep training at the beginning of the night translates to fewer wakings in the night. Hope it works out that way for you :)


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## bananaz

MrsPear said:


> Bananaz- I'm sorry it's so rough. Did your interview go okay? I think if you get back into your old routine of not feeding to sleep and are consistent with it then it shouldn't take long to go back to normal- Noelle said that she went cold turkey with the night feeds after reintroducing them for a while, and it worked for her second time round. Our girls are swapping tips it seems!

I think the interview went okay, thankfully a little caffeine and a lot of nerves were enough to perk me up. And I hope you're right about things going back to normal. I do plan on cutting all those extra feedings cold turkey, she hasn't needed them in months so I don't see why she would suddenly need them now. Hopefully she'll agree with this assessment and just give them up on her own :haha:

Good luck with the shush-patting, it sounds like you're off to a great start already! I can't imagine trying to go to sleep with somebody patting me but that is one of the few effective techniques for Elsie too. I guess those baby brains just work differently :)




Noelle610 said:


> Bananaz, I am so sorry. Do you think the traveling just really threw Elsie off or do you think this might be the 8/9 month sleep regression? Will you consider sleep training?

It feels like it was the traveling and the change of environment, or at least that's what I'm telling myself because I'm not willing to go through another sleep regression! I'm going to give her a couple of days to see if she readjusts to her old routine but if she continues with this there is definitely sleep training in our future. I don't have the physical/mental resources to be up all night with her when I don't have any help and when I don't get any breaks during the day either. Hopefully it won't get to that point though.


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## bananaz

Megan - I'm so glad things are finally starting to look up for you. It sounds like this was the right choice for your LO. Keep us posted on her progress!


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## Noelle610

I honestly think some kids - including my own - are just not that adaptable. I hope this doesn't scare you off of travel until she's 3! Give it a few days. I would just get Elsie on a strict nap schedule over the next week and make sure she gets a lot of stimulation between naps (really wear her out). I bet she sleeps better for you soon.


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## Shadowy Lady

Bananaz - hope the interview went well. You're srsly my hero for doing all this on your own and I wish you the best of luck :)

MrSPear - good luck tonight hun! I know for us any kinda sleep training always made things better.

I'm getting scared now of our trip (Feb 21st). We're gonna be in the Caribbean so Sofia can't sleep in her thick sleepsuite and she'll have to sleep under a mosquito net. Hope she doesn't get too thrown off. She's now back to only one wakeup per night or occasionally none at all for the past 2 weeks. Really hope this sticks.


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## bananaz

Noelle610 said:


> I honestly think some kids - including my own - are just not that adaptable. I hope this doesn't scare you off of travel until she's 3! Give it a few days. I would just get Elsie on a strict nap schedule over the next week and make sure she gets a lot of stimulation between naps (really wear her out). I bet she sleeps better for you soon.

I think you're right on all counts. I hope Charlotte gets over her tummy bug quickly, poor kid :(


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## megangrohl

Thanks everyone for such awesome, positive support! She did really well for her naps today. She whimpered about 30 minutes for her first nap and slept 45 minutes and her second nap she whimpered 15 minutes and slept 1 hour.

We put her in her crib at bedtime tonight and she cried for 5 minutes! That is all! I think we have some amazing progress. I know CIO is not for everyone but I definitely do think it is for us. We went and bought a video baby monitor and I see she is laying in her crib now playing with her cuddle blankie that has a stuffed animal head on top. (not sure what those are called? lol)

Consistency is definitely key. We don't go back in unless she is really bad in the middle of the night, and it is usually DF to give her back her soother, and a gentle pat on her chest. No words are spoken and no eye contact. She is doing well at self settling. I kiss and hug her all day long because she is just too precious and cute not to!

I will keep everyone posted on our progress!


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## MrsPear

Night one was a success! She went to bed at 6:30 and was asleep by about 7:15 with the ssshhing and patting (and singing, poor kid). I did a dreamfeed before I went to bed about 9:30 (rock and roll), then she was only up 3 times in the night!! 

Each time, I fed her (don't know if she really needs feeding but she isn't putting weight on well and she's constipated since starting weaning so I'm happy to keep up with it) then put her back in her cot and she went back to sleep with only a few seconds of patting. In fact one time she was grizzling so I stopped patting for a second and she fell asleep, almost like, "Get off mum, I'm tired!" 

We did have some cuddles before getting up and she slept about an hour in my arms before getting up- I'm happy to do this because if she was in her cot she'd wake up for the day an hour earlier but once she is in my arms and been fed she drifts back to sleep for a bit so it's nice to get a cuddle and a relax till 7:30.

SO, all in all a very good start! x


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## Noelle610

Great news MrsPear!

I'm really impressed with all of these consistent mommies on here :) I think when you're sleep deprived and desperate it's hard to make changes, especially if they mean a temporary increase in lack of sleep. You just want them to go to sleep, damn it!

For me, when I did the night weaning, I was terrified mostly because I was scared it wouldn't work. And what then? I give you all credit.


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## megangrohl

Thanks Noelle. Lastnight she cried for 5 minutes, then she sat playing with her cuddle toy/blankie for about 20 minutes and fell asleep by 7:00. She didn't wake up until 6:00 this morning! I am so freaking happy! I got 8 hours of sleep and I feel like a new woman! The first night was the hardest, hearing her like that but honestly it is so worth it. She is so much more happy and well rested. I love being a mom with this much sleep! I hope she keeps this up, she is getting really well at settling herself to sleep too.


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## Noelle610

megangrohl said:


> Thanks Noelle. Lastnight she cried for 5 minutes, then she sat playing with her cuddle toy/blankie for about 20 minutes and fell asleep by 7:00. She didn't wake up until 6:00 this morning! I am so freaking happy! I got 8 hours of sleep and I feel like a new woman! The first night was the hardest, hearing her like that but honestly it is so worth it. She is so much more happy and well rested. I love being a mom with this much sleep! I hope she keeps this up, she is getting really well at settling herself to sleep too.

Say what?!!!!! Amazing! I bet Lilly is happier too getting such quality sleep. I am thrilled for you Megan. Just so happy!

I have read that sometimes the really bad sleepers often to take to sleep training very quickly. Seems to be the case for you and your girl!


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## megangrohl

I am glad too. I need this sleep, I start going back to school for chemistry tomorrow. I will be going Tues & Thurs nights 6-9 pm and it is a condensed course, so I will need to really have alot of time for reading chapters and studying because I want to pass, and I want to actually understand it. And since I SUCK at chemistry it will be hard but I need to do it to get into nursing school. So I am really hoping she sticks to it. 

We will definitely still be consistent with the CIO by not going in and she has 100% shown us that she does have the ability to STTN so I am happy with our progress. I also wanted to let ppl having so much troubles sleeping at night know that CIO can and does work, but I do know that it is not for everyone as every baby is totally different. Some respond well and some don't. Ours responded well, and it was our last resort method, too.


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## daneuse27

My LO is doing a lot better too, all I had to do was cut dairy out of my diet completely. She finally stopped squirming and farting and started sleeping more and better! Then on Friday, I made these vegan cookies that were mostly made up of oats, and then her gas started to become a problem again, I think it was becuase of the oats ( I did eat quite a few of those cookies lol) so I stopped eating them and then she started sleeping better again! 10-12 stretches at night and naps are improving. I think I need to be better with developing a nap routine, it seems every day we do something different and her bedtime routine is always the same which I think has always helped her sleep so well at night.


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## bananaz

daneuse27 said:


> My LO is doing a lot better too, all I had to do was cut dairy out of my diet completely. She finally stopped squirming and farting and started sleeping more and better! Then on Friday, I made these vegan cookies that were mostly made up of oats, and then her gas started to become a problem again, I think it was becuase of the oats ( I did eat quite a few of those cookies lol) so I stopped eating them and then she started sleeping better again! 10-12 stretches at night and naps are improving. I think I need to be better with developing a nap routine, it seems every day we do something different and her bedtime routine is always the same which I think has always helped her sleep so well at night.

Wow, 10-12 hour stretches? That's amazing! I'm so glad cutting dairy has worked for you. I also found that my LO was sensitive to oats for a while, but she seems to have outgrown it now.


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## Noelle610

daneuse27 said:


> My LO is doing a lot better too, all I had to do was cut dairy out of my diet completely. She finally stopped squirming and farting and started sleeping more and better! Then on Friday, I made these vegan cookies that were mostly made up of oats, and then her gas started to become a problem again, I think it was becuase of the oats ( I did eat quite a few of those cookies lol) so I stopped eating them and then she started sleeping better again! 10-12 stretches at night and naps are improving. I think I need to be better with developing a nap routine, it seems every day we do something different and her bedtime routine is always the same which I think has always helped her sleep so well at night.

So glad things have improved for you!!


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## aliss

We had a great night, only 2 night feeds & then a resettling at 5:30am when OH woke up snorting with a nose bleed (urgh). Improved from 10-15x a night with teething (and, of course, no tooth to show for it). 

:)


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## MrsPear

daneuse27 said:


> My LO is doing a lot better too, all I had to do was cut dairy out of my diet completely. She finally stopped squirming and farting and started sleeping more and better! Then on Friday, I made these vegan cookies that were mostly made up of oats, and then her gas started to become a problem again, I think it was becuase of the oats ( I did eat quite a few of those cookies lol) so I stopped eating them and then she started sleeping better again! 10-12 stretches at night and naps are improving. I think I need to be better with developing a nap routine, it seems every day we do something different and her bedtime routine is always the same which I think has always helped her sleep so well at night.

Well done you for cutting it out completely, that is not easy at all when dairy is hidden in all sorts.
10-12 hours is amazing!! :happydance:


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## Noelle610

aliss said:


> We had a great night, only 2 night feeds & then a resettling at 5:30am when OH woke up snorting with a nose bleed (urgh). Improved from 10-15x a night with teething (and, of course, no tooth to show for it).
> 
> :)

Wow, that is wonderful at 14 weeks old! 

I feel you on the teething. I feel like Charlotte has been teething for weeks. I've been expecting those top teeth to pop through, but nothing! So frustrating.


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## bananaz

*MrsPear *- Yay, congrats on sticking to it, I'm glad it's continuing to work for you! It sounds like she's well on her way to self-settling.

*Megan* - That is so awesome, I hope your success continues. Enjoy your sleep, mama :)

*aliss* - Two feeds is fantastic for that age, it took my LO a lot longer to get to that point, haha. The teething thing is so frustrating, especially when there's nothing to show for it. There have been many times when I wanted to tell LO "You'd better wake up with all of your molars after a night like this!"


Elsie slept better last night, thank god. She went to bed on time without a fuss, stirred at 9pm but put herself back to sleep, and then woke for feeds at 2am and 4am before getting up for the day at 6:30am :happydance:


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## aliss

Thanks girls, I know I know!!! Don't worry I'm not one of those who will bitch about 2x at 14 weeks! I appreciate every moment of it b/c I know better :) Still gearing up for the 4 month bitchfest but I'll relax until then ;)


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## MrsPear

Aliss you are our font of all knowledge, we know you know all about sleeplessness and understand what is a good night and what is a bad night!! I'm glad Philippe is sleeping well so far!

So, I am getting ready for night two of ,shhhh-patting! I forgot to mention that last night I was so tired that everytime I closed my eyes whilst feeding Joni, it was going through my mind that I needed to put her in the fish tank when I was finished?!!

Note to self: Do not put the baby in the fish tank

xx


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## daneuse27

Im glad that so many of us are doing better now :) Hats off to the babies for figuring out that we want them to SLEEP and its better for all involved if they do!

Cutting out dairy has been extremely hard for me... lots of adjustments had to be made in my eating patterns. As a vegetarian, my list of foods I can eat without consequence is growing rather short. but if I have to choose between cheese or sleep/free time, I'll go with the ladder ;)

Question - does anyone know how long should my daughter be awake for between naps at her age? I was thinking 2-3 hours? Shes been fussy lately, I think because of teething and not being able to crawl so its hard to tell when shes actually getting tired or if shes just grumpy.


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## megangrohl

At 5.5 months it was only 2 to 2.5 hours of awake time from finishing one nap to starting another one for us. But Lily has always been a terrible sleeper so it may be different for your infant. I'd say just keep trying and you will soon find what works.


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## bananaz

*daneuse* - At that age I think Elsie's max awake time was usually in the 1.5-2.5 hour range.


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## Noelle610

Bananaz, I am so relieved! I knew Elise would snap out of those 1-2 hours wakings.

MrsPear, you had me laughing out loud!!! Do NOT put the baby in the fish tank. But if you do, please take pictures.

Aliss, we KNOW you know what it's like not to sleep. My fingers are crossed that you skip the 4 month regression. You deserve it.

Daneuse, I've found this chart really helpful. It's a little complicated, but it has wake times recommended for each age. At nearly 6 months, it recommends 2.5 hours between naps at the upper limit. 

https://docs.google.com/document/d/11GHo4keUb2TVJUlSL1kD6HQcEgaNFBmzoQoOzcpcyas/edit?hl=en&authkey=CPXE1bsO&pli=1#


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## MrsPear

I agree that about 2 hours was about right at that age for Joni. In fact, she still can't stay awake more than 3 hours straight without problems.

So...night two...she's asleep! It was A LOT more traumatic tonight because she was screaming and screaming, but she fell asleep all of a sudden after 30 minutes. I just kept reminding myself that in the intensity of the moment it seems a long, long, time to have her crying without picking her up, but I am there, right next to her, she can hear me and feel my hand on her, and I feel absolutely certain that once she is used to that, she will be just fine with that level of support. I think some(not on this thread I know you wouldn't judge) would say I should 'ride it out' and just keep cuddling her all night but to be honest I thought she would be able to sleep either next to me or in her cot by 7 months, I don't really know of many other babies that literally can't be put down all night every night by this age. Perhaps I'm just trying to justify it in my head, I don't know. Ugh, I hate this.


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## Noelle610

MrsPear, you are doing just fine. Don't be so hard on yourself :) Joni knows you are there for her, she is just fighting change. You are mom and you know best. Once you are both sleeping a bit better, you will be glad you stuck with it.


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## MrsPear

Noelle610 said:


> MrsPear, you are doing just fine. Don't be so hard on yourself :) Joni knows you are there for her, she is just fighting change. You are mom and you know best. Once you are both sleeping a bit better, you will be glad you stuck with it.

Yeah I keep remembering that last night she only woke up 3 times and there could be better to come :flower: Thanks for that message Noelle, it's just what I needed to hear.


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## bananaz

MrsPear - I agree 100% with Noelle and I don't think it's at all unreasonable to expect a 7-month-old to sleep in her crib. You are taking a very gentle approach but some resistance is just par for the course, unfortunately. You'll get there! :hugs:


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## daneuse27

Yikes! That might be why we have morning nap battles! For some reason she sleeps well at night, but the morning nap is the hardest because ive been keeping her up for 3 hours :( I feel awful now. I've been exhausting her this whole time. :(


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## MrsPear

daneuse27 said:


> Yikes! That might be why we have morning nap battles! For some reason she sleeps well at night, but the morning nap is the hardest because ive been keeping her up for 3 hours :( I feel awful now. I've been exhausting her this whole time. :(

Don't feel bad, some babies show a lot more signals of being tired than others so it can be hard to guage. And if you have a baby that fights sleep (like Joni) then it can be tempting just to keep them up longer even though it'll cause problems later on in the day! 

Joni's first nap is often not far after waking up, even now it might only be 1.5 hours or less of wake time before her first nap. Then later naps can be spaced out a bit more. I don't know if that's the same for others.


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## Noelle610

MrsPear said:


> daneuse27 said:
> 
> 
> Yikes! That might be why we have morning nap battles! For some reason she sleeps well at night, but the morning nap is the hardest because ive been keeping her up for 3 hours :( I feel awful now. I've been exhausting her this whole time. :(
> 
> Don't feel bad, some babies show a lot more signals of being tired than others so it can be hard to guage. And if you have a baby that fights sleep (like Joni) then it can be tempting just to keep them up longer even though it'll cause problems later on in the day!
> 
> Joni's first nap is often not far after waking up, even now it might only be 1.5 hours or less of wake time before her first nap. Then later naps can be spaced out a bit more. I don't know if that's the same for others.Click to expand...

Don't feel bad! As babies get older, their sleepy signs become unreliable. So by the time they are rubbing their eyes, yawning, etc., you've missed that magical window where they are tired, but not overtired and will go down easily. But how in the world should we know that? The only reason I know this is because I've read more sleep books than the average person. And quite frankly, I don't know that it's really helped me get my baby to sleep any better! :haha:

MrsPear is correct that the awake window between first waking up and that first nap is usually shorter. Try putting your LO down around 1.5-2 hours after she wakes and see what happens. I bet you have success! Charlotte can usually tolerate 3 hours of awake time or even 4 hours before bed sometimes, but she typically takes her first nap after just 2.5 hours.


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## Shadowy Lady

ok guys, i'm so nervous! My doctor wants to be to stop taking Adevent gradually. She thinks that I'm physically able to sleep and it's just my mind that's keeping me up. DH also thinks I should not take meds unless maybe 1-2 times per week.

I've been anxious and stressed about no meds since my appt this morning. I'm exhausted mentally and physically (just came back from bootcamp), but I can't seem to control my anxious mind.

I think Sofia sleeps way better than me :(


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## Noelle610

Shadowy Lady said:


> ok guys, i'm so nervous! My doctor wants to be to stop taking Adevent gradually. She thinks that I'm physically able to sleep and it's just my mind that's keeping me up. DH also thinks I should not take meds unless maybe 1-2 times per week.
> 
> I've been anxious and stressed about no meds since my appt this morning. I'm exhausted mentally and physically (just came back from bootcamp), but I can't seem to control my anxious mind.
> 
> I think Sofia sleeps way better than me :(

That's interesting. Truthfully, I don't know a lot about insomnia, but I didn't think most people suffering with it physically couldn't sleep. I guess I thought it was more of an anxiety thing, so in my opinion your mind keeping you up is a valid concern. 

If it helps, I took only half of my pill last night and slept great! I was nervous too :)


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## Shadowy Lady

Thanks Noelle, that's what I wanna do too but my DH is telling me I should go cold turkey. My problem is that I'm soooo tired but scared that I won't sleep if I don't take the meds. And I know it's a fear and not real but don't know what to do about it.

Maybe I will take half and see ;)


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## MrsPear

Shadowy I thought being physically unable to sleep was extremely rare and extremely dangerous. Therefore surely almost 100% of people taking those medicines have some 'switch' mentally that they just can't flick off? Sorry I have no advice but if taking half has worked for Noelle then maybe it could for you.

Well...last night was NOT a success. I think Joni only woke up three times between 10:30 & 4am which is not bad (I suppose, I try and be positive because it is so much better than other nights, but really? I'm still kind of disappointed even though I know I shouldn't be asking too much)...

...but at 4:15 I put her down and we had a huge battle of wills. It's not like she wants to be awake because she keeps drifting off for about a minute, but she screams! This baby can scream! I couldn't believe the thread recently asking how many times a day does your baby cry and people were replying with "only a handful of real tears since birth"- Say wha'?...anyway off on a tangent there...at 6:15 (yes two hours, I can't say I didn't try) I put her in my arms and by 6:20 she was fast asleep until 8:45. 

So, I don't know what to do from here. I know a lot of babies have trouble sleeping around 4:30am. But, she's so tired! I just don't understand why she won't do it in her cot. She's not cold- if anything she overheats when she's next to me. She's just tired and grumpy, with a lot of stamina.

Should I just have picked her up at 4:30 and thought this is not a good time for her to go back to sleep? Should I have tried for less time (OH did about 40 minutes of the two hours, I can't take all the credit)? Should I have given up sooner? Should I have not given up at all and just got her up at her normal time? Should I wait a month and have another go? 

I have no idea, all I know is it was completely pointless, upsetting for everyone and has left me so tired I might cry. Got my job interview tomorrow. Sigh.

xxx


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## Noelle610

MrsPear, so sorry you had a tough night. I think you should stick with it, no matter how long it takes. You're trying to break 7 months of habit (not bad or good - just habit) and she's going to fight it. That said, I probably would have given in at that point too, so don't be too hard on yourself! I would give this a least a week, mabye two, before deciding whether or not it's working. I know it feels like a lifetime, but you're only a few days in. You're doing great. 

When we were spacing out Charlotte's night feeds, we had one terrible night where she cried for like 90 minutes around 3am. It was horrible. DH and I were soothing her while she was in her crib, like you are doing with Joni. I really wanted to give up. My husband had to practically hold me down! The next night was much better and we never had a night like that again. They do adapt, probably faster than we do!


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## megangrohl

Hey everyone, hope all is well. I just wanted to report that lastnight was the third night in a row she has slept 12 hours straight in her crib! And now she only whimpers for 5 minutes then plays in her crib for about 10 minutes and is off to sleep. This is for naps too! She also doesn't need her soother either. I can't believe it only took 1 night of crying it out for this to happen!


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## Boo44

Megan that's amazing!!! Am so happy for you!

Jack has had a cough and runny nose AGAIN. Am trying not to get paranoid about him allllways being ill lol! Anyway he was whiney all afternoon yesterday. He slept amazing u til 4.45 then I could hear him awake and shuffling and fussing in a minor way. This is a very unusual time for him! I decided to leave him and it took 20 mins but he went back to sleep. He was then awake at 6.20 at which point I gave him his dummy as I didn want to risk him waking up fully (!!!) this is a more normal time for him. And he slept til 8am. Soooo random. I checked his mouth this morning and I think he's cutting his third tooth. But strangely it is at the bottom alongside his front 2! So I'm beginning to wonder if I can actually see it at all lol!

Recently since he's (presumably) teething and therefore being more unsettled on a night (still great, just different) I've reverted back to my old mindset from when he was a newborn. I seem to have lost the ability to relax overnight and get all worked up at hearing him or the possibility of hearing him and when it will be! Last night I had a song running through my head over and over, and I couldn't switch off at all at 5am. Argh! I hope this passes soon....


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## Aphrodite

Boo I am sooo with you on this one. I panic like mad at even him moving in his cot in case it means he'll wake! My heart starts going, I dread it more than ever, doesnt that sound ridiculous? Sunday night we were both so tired I though I would hallucinate. Yet I lay awake until after 1am. I said to my DH that its almost like you are awake so much your body thinks, right, she obviously needs to stay awake so lets keep her awake! I was singing nursery rhymes from rhyme time in my head over andf over until gone midnight. Arrgghh!!! Going insane!


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## mrsbeano

Oooh, lots to catch up on again! So so many babies have really been improving which is great & hopefully providing a little hope for those whose babies are still fighting the good stuff :haha:

Mrs Pear - do stick with the shhh patting. I read somewhere that the most important thing is how they get themselves to sleep for the first part of the night so if she can start to settle herself then you should be onto a winner. I shhh-patted Quinn at 3/4 months and it worked a treat. If he was starting to get worked up by it, I'd give him 2 minutes and then go back in for a bit more shh-patting and it was as though the reset button had been hit as he would usually go back over quite quickly. 

Megan - I now always just leave Quinn to sort himself out for about 10 minutes. At nap times he fights it and nearly always cries but at bedtime he just smiles, rolls over and goes to sleep. I'm too scared to become his aid for getting to sleep so I suppose I CIO on a daily basis. 

Boo - when I'm like that I read my book for a chapter to break the cycle. I say that Quinn has sleep trained me to never sttn again. :dohh:

Shadowy - I would try again. Your anxiety is causing you to not sleep so you need meds for that, surely? 

I didn't go back too far so probably missed some bits. 

Our night weaning now seems to have worked and Quinn hasn't had a bottle at night for about a week. He has transferred his intake to daytime which is great as he had got into rejecting milk in the day to wake up and have it at night instead. The teething has also subsided for the meantime so we're in a good spot, enjoying it while it lasts. 

O/T only one night left with the in laws in our tiny house. I cannot wait to have my house back and to be able to leave the house without checking off the items in the changing bag with my MIL. How have I coped without her LOL?


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## Noelle610

Megan, yay yay yay!! That's all I have to say. You deserve this.

Boo and Aprhodite - we have definitely been there. With both the teething and being utterly exhausted, yet unable to fall asleep. I think it's the anxiety and unpredictability. I am on sleep meds for that very reason, so unfortunately I have no advice to give in that area! In terms of the teething, I would try ibuprofen before bed. That said, it lasts 8 hours so you may need to re-dose around 3am or so. 

MrsBeano, glad you're in a good place! On the topic of in-laws, I'm right there with you. My father in law is the most lovely man and he was here for a week last week. He was great - took care of Charlotte, cooked for us. But I was ready for him to leave at the end of the week. He loves to talk and on that last night I just wanted to VEG OUT. 

Things are very good here. Charlotte has been sick with a tummy bug, but still sleeping very well. Sunday night she slept 13 hours straight. No joke. Last night she had two wakings between 11pm and midnight, but I'm pretty sure it's because she didn't feel well. I was fine to cuddle her a few times. Feels too good to be true. It's scaring me!


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## veganmama

well. i thought at 1 year things would get better. NOPE. every month that goes by just keeps getting worse. i'm not sure if it's teething (everything gets blamed on teething, right?) or whatever but now on top of his usual 10+ wakings a night my LO thinks its cool to wake up in the middle of the night and crawl on me while screaming in my face and he won't even take a boob to calm him down! 

:coffee:


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## Noelle610

veganmama said:


> well. i thought at 1 year things would get better. NOPE. every month that goes by just keeps getting worse. i'm not sure if it's teething (everything gets blamed on teething, right?) or whatever but now on top of his usual 10+ wakings a night my LO thinks its cool to wake up in the middle of the night and crawl on me while screaming in my face and he won't even take a boob to calm him down!
> 
> :coffee:

:hugs:

We've been there. 

Where does he sleep? Does he nap well? Maybe some small changes would make a big difference. It's hard to see the big picture when you're exhausted.

It does feel like teething goes on FOREVER.


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## veganmama

he co sleeps with me since birth. he takes two, 1 hour long naps but wakes every 15-20 minutes during his naps and i have to go and boob him back to sleep. 

exaustedddddd


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## Noelle610

veganmama said:


> he co sleeps with me since birth. he takes two, 1 hour long naps but wakes every 15-20 minutes during his naps and i have to go and boob him back to sleep.
> 
> exaustedddddd

That sounds rough! Do you think he might do better in his own space? Sometimes that seems to be the case with older babies. I think they co-sleep well until about 6 months and then it may cause more wakings.

In terms of the naps, sounds like they're of a good length. I wonder if he is overtired, though, if he is waking so frequently.


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## bananaz

*Boo and Aphrodite* - I used to also freak out that I could hear LO waking up, but now I can just take a look on my video monitor and most of the time she's totally zonked out asleep. Of course the monitor doesn't help with all the times I'm convinced she's about to wake up though!

*mrsbeano* - Congrats on the successful night weaning! Is he giving you some nice long stretches now??

*Noelle* - Holy crap, 13 hours? I can't even imagine! Even with the disruptions it sounds like Charlotte has reached a really good place in terms of sleep :)

*veganmama* - :hugs: That's really tough. I can't imagine trying to cosleep with my LO at this age - she's way too active and sometimes downright violent! Have you thought about maybe transitioning him to a crib to see if that helps? 



Last night was okay for us. She had another weird stirring around 11pm where she suddenly stood up and starting crying loudly and then just as suddenly stopped and laid down. I think she's still asleep when she does that?? Anyway, she didn't wake up all the way until 2am for a feeding. I took her off the boob a couple of minutes earlier than usual so afterward she fussed intermittently afterward for a while but then she finally went back to sleep. Unfortunately I wasn't able to do the same and I was still awake at 6am when she got up for the day :(


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## Boo44

Aphrodite that sounds exactly the same as me! I don't know why I find it so stressful the possibility/reality of him stirring?! I mean he's not had milk in the night since 11 weeks and he's now 7.5 months! Even when he hardly has any in the day he refuses it at night. But yet I just worry about him waking mainly because I can't switch off after! 

He's been all whingey today and has only had 5oz of his afternoon bottle instead of his usual 9oz. Last week he was in a good patch and having full bottles and really enjoying them in like 5 mins flat! Just when you think it's all sorted something else comes along :(

Ooh bananaz that 2-6am sounds a killer despite Elsie being asleep. That being said, I'm pleased I'm not the only one...!


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## Shadowy Lady

Just to clarify ladies, my sleep issue is due to anxiety, but my doctor doesn't want me to take pills every night. She said 3 nights a week max! She doesn't want me to be dependent on the pill and I see her point. It's just so hard when I sleep so much better while taking them.

I I took half of the pill and I did go to sleep around 9:30-10 pm (and woke at 1:30 am to feed Sofia). But after that I woke up at 4 am for absolutely no reason and could not sleep again until Sofia woke up at 6:15 am. I'm gonna do another half pill tonight and then no pill tomorrow night. 

I'm functional but very tired....will have to come back and read all the posts I missed later


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## Sunnie1984

Hello ladies! 

Wow a lot has happened since I last posted. I hope I don't miss anyone out! 

Boo44 - Sorry for the late reply. The eucalyptus oil in a bowl did help. I then bought a vaporiser from boots (boots own brand) for like £5. You just put it on before LO goes to bed and then I turn it off when I go to bed, and it seems to help a lot. 

Propping the end of the cot with a couple of books seems to be helping a little too. I hope Jack isn't too bad with it. 

Don't worry about the dirty nappy, it'll pass, we had the same thing for a couple of days and then it stopped. 

Seren also has a cold and it's taking her forever to eat her bottles, she used to down a 250ml (8oz) bottle in like 5 mins, now it's taking like two hours to get it into her, then try to wind her. It'll pass. 


Mrspear - Sorry you are still having a tough time. I don't know that the formula itself has any effect, but friends of mine have reported better sleep when they switched at 6 months, they seem to think it's because you don't get as sunggled in when bottle feeding, so it's easier to put them down as they are not so comfortable. 

The ssshhh patting seems to be going great for you. I know its so hard when you are doing it, but you are right, it's really not that awful for her if you are next to her. 

Just be ready for a little bit of a regression after she takes to it, apparently when you are making a big change, they can accept it for a few days and then they regress again and then it gets better. 

Oh and I agree, no putting Joni in the fish tank! 

I think you did the right thing about the 4:30am waking. I think 2 hours is definitely long enough to try, and then let her sleep. Just keep at it, it'll click in the end. 

Good luck with the job interview. 

Bananaz - I'm sorry Elsie had such a hard time sleeping while you were away. How did your interview go? 

Don't worry, you'll get back on track with the night feeding soon enough, it'll just take a couple of days for her to revert. 

I think Elsie is probably asleep during her standing waking, I guess it's just her muscles working when she is asleep, probably trying to learn new skills. 

Sorry you couldn't get back to sleep, but I hope that passes soon. 

Megan - Congratulations that CIO worked so well for you. Definitely no judgement here, you have to do what you have to do. Especially since it seems that you are getting much less crying with CIO than you were with gentler methods. Some babies just respond better to CIO etc. I hope you are finally getting some great sleep. 

Daneuae - Glad things are getting better for you. Dairy elimination is really tough, especially as a vegetarian, but at least it's having a definite impact. 

I also find that Seren needs a nap about 1.5 - 2 hours after waking, but she can go longer after that. She can do 3 hours in the afternoon, but it depends on the length of nap. 

I'd try putting her down earlier and see if that makes a difference. 

Aliss - So glad you are getting some good sleep. 

Shadowy Lady - I completely understand why you would be nervous about dropping your medication. I hope that the half doses work ok for you, but if it doesn't, make sure you go back to your doctor and speak to her seriously about it. You can't get no sleep just because a doctor doesn't want you on sleeping meds. There has to be a balance somewhere. 


Mrsbeano - So glad you are having success with shifting the calories to day time with Quinn. 

Noelle - Thrilled Charlotte is sleeping well for you. 13 hours is amazing! 

Veganmama - So sorry you are having such a tough time. I agree with Noelle about moving them into their own bed. Once they are really mobile they become difficult to co sleep with. 


As for us, we're doing ok. Seren has a cold still, which is making day times a bit miserable because she spends all day trying to feed because of her blocked nose. 

She's been sleeping well until last night. She had her last nap at 4:45pm instead of 4pm because she had wind she couldn't get up because of her cold, and it took until then to get it up and get her to sleep in the car. 

DH is away so some of my friends were coming over, so I was trying to tidy up and get things sorted, but had to do it one handed because she wanted to be held all the time, which is really unusual. 

I bathed her at 6:30 and tried to put her down, but I just don't think she was tired enough. Eventually she took her dummy and went to sleep, but it took ages and she was still drifting off to sleep in the cot at 7:30pm when people arrived. 

So after STTN the last two nights, 4:45am she woke, and every 30 minutes after that. She was wide awake too. I just gave her a cuddle and put her back down, and she tried to drift off again. 

I finally gave up and got up at 7am which is her usual get up time. She lasted until 8:10am and then went back down for a nap, and is still asleep 45 mins later, which is almost unheard of for her, but I think it's because she was awake on and off from 4:45am. 

So tonight I'm hoping we get an earlier last nap and then she can go to bed at the usual time, if not I'll just have to put her to bed later. 

She still has a cold and I can't wait for it to pass, although that will probably be just in time for WW26 to begin! 

x


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## socitycourty

veganmama said:


> well. i thought at 1 year things would get better. NOPE. every month that goes by just keeps getting worse. i'm not sure if it's teething (everything gets blamed on teething, right?) or whatever but now on top of his usual 10+ wakings a night my LO thinks its cool to wake up in the middle of the night and crawl on me while screaming in my face and he won't even take a boob to calm him down!
> 
> :coffee:

:(

will he sleep at all on his own? maybe you are inadvertantely (spelling?) waking him up or something that would explain the screaming.....maybe you could try part tme bedsharing?


----------



## socitycourty

megan- how did you approach CIO? i have to hold my LO to sleep and all night, i'm exhausted and anxiety ridden, as well as being a total bitch.

she has to still be in our room (pack n play) the rooms are too far apart and i just find monitors too creepy :wacko:


----------



## MrsPear

Bananaz- There's something incredibly miserable about being awake when your baby is asleep. I'm sorry you couldn't sleep.

Veganmamma- I'm sorry you are still having sleep problems. Yes I would expect it to get better by that age too. I don't have any suggestions because nothing I do seems to work. I feel for you, it's hard not to start getting depressed when you're that tired.

Boo44- That's exactly it- just as you think it's sorted something else comes along!!

Sunnie- Fingers crossed you get some good sleep between the cold and WW26! It sounds like she's feeling a bit miserable, I know when I have a cold I struggle to sleep too. Thanks for the interview luck!!

Mrs Beano- It sounds like Quinn is sleeping better than previously? I'm glad night weaning has been working. I hope that I will be able to get Joni to self settle like that soon!


----------



## MrsPear

Our shhh-patting is not going very well. Perhaps I am expecting too much too soon. For the first part of the night she slept okay-

6:30-9:30 (after 30 minutes patting) sleep
Feed
10:00-01:00 (was asleep by the time I finished feeding) sleep
Feed
1:20-3:30 sleep
Party Party Party Party Party
5:30-5:50 sleep
Feed
6:10-6:30
Party 
6:30
I give up and get up.

I'm going to try until Monday so I've given it a week, but I just don't think this is going anywhere.

I've been awake since 3:30 and had about 4 hours sleep before that...so...wish me luck for my interview!!! :thumbup:


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## mrsbeano

Wow Mrs pear! That's rough. I think that the motn parties are just a phase as lots of babies on here do it. I let Quinn cio for that but understand if its not your cup of tea.

I think the more gentle sleep training can take a while.

Lots of luck today. Adrenaline should see you through... Enjoy getting dressed up too! It's nice to feel smart & out of your mum uniform x


----------



## MrsPear

mrsbeano said:


> Wow Mrs pear! That's rough. I think that the motn parties are just a phase as lots of babies on here do it. I let Quinn cio for that but understand if its not your cup of tea.
> 
> I think the more gentle sleep training can take a while.
> 
> Lots of luck today. Adrenaline should see you through... Enjoy getting dressed up too! It's nice to feel smart & out of your mum uniform x

Haha that is so true, I've tried my outfit on twice this week already, it feels good! x


----------



## Sunnie1984

MrsPear said:


> Our shhh-patting is not going very well. Perhaps I am expecting too much too soon. For the first part of the night she slept okay-
> 
> 6:30-9:30 (after 30 minutes patting) sleep
> Feed
> 10:00-01:00 (was asleep by the time I finished feeding) sleep
> Feed
> 1:20-3:30 sleep
> Party Party Party Party Party
> 5:30-5:50 sleep
> Feed
> 6:10-6:30
> Party
> 6:30
> I give up and get up.
> 
> I'm going to try until Monday so I've given it a week, but I just don't think this is going anywhere.
> 
> I've been awake since 3:30 and had about 4 hours sleep before that...so...wish me luck for my interview!!! :thumbup:

Mrspear - you are making progress, I know it's so difficult to see it when you are in the middle of it, but remember that Joni literally wouldn't sleep at all unless she was in your arms, and now you are getting 3 hours when she first goes down. 

Plus you are getting another 3 hours after that, which I think is amazing progress so quickly. 

I know you feel rotten and sleep deprived, but it will get even better. 

I agree with Mrsbeano - the MOTN party could be developmental rather than the sleep training method. So nothing to do with her sleep pattern really at all. 

Keep at it honey, I know it will pay off for you in the end. 

Plus as it gets to 4am, that's when they enter lighter sleep cycles, so it's no real surprise that she is struggling to resettle at that stage, especially when this way of sleeping is so new to her. 

This also won't help, but Seren's normal wake up is between 6:30 and 7am. So you might find that when she is sleeping much better that she naturally has an earlier wake time as she is much better rested. 

I know that's the last thing you want to hear now, but honestly, when they sleep good, 6:30am seems a reasonable time to get up :thumbup:

x


----------



## MrsPear

You are so right! I will keep going for at least a week and I will update how she sleeps each night so you can remind me of the progress! :) x


----------



## Noelle610

MrsPear, I actually totally agree with Sunnie. This is the kid who could only sleep while being held. She's now doing three hour stretches in her crib! With the exception of the middle of the night party, she is doing wonderfully! And I do think those parties are devlopntal. We've all been there.

I wanted to share this link with you girls. I know it's easier for me to have perspective now that my kid sleeps relatively well, but I think this would have helpd me when I was having a hard time. It's an article about how we will remember the moments - the first smile, the first time baby crawled - but not the phases, including the 4am parties.

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/kara-gebhart-uhl/phases-moments-parenting_b_1651288.html


----------



## Shadowy Lady

Sunny - I find the rare occasion that Sofia does STTN (like once a week) she wants to make up for it by waking up at 4:00 am! Is your DH part of Seren bedtime routine? If so maybe she was thrown off coz he wasn't included?

Socity - lol I find monitors creepy too! I thought i was the only one. We have one but don't use it during the night coz our rooms are close to each other.

MrsPear - that is very rough :( I agree with mrsbeano though, usually very gentle sleep training approaches take forever (or in our case don't work which is why we switched methodes). It does sound that your LO has made some progress so go mamma! Best of luck to you though....

So as for us I personally took another half dose last night and slept from 10:30 pm to 5:30 which is not bad. I do still feel tired and am wondering it's the meds making me drowsy. I think tonight I'll brave it with no meds.

Sofia slept from 7 pm to 5:30 am which is awesome! This might have been her once a week sttn. What is weird though that her naps are getting shorter during the day and she's unusually cranky. Is there a ww26? If so I think we started it 2 days ago :/


----------



## Boo44

We had a better night last night thank goodness. It's snowing here so I've had a day around the house and Jack's had 2 naps, 10-11.30 and then 3.30-4.30. That is great for him! He won't need a power nap and both times he self settled in his cot. Just shows what he'd be like if I was always in. But I kinda refuse to stop living life just so a baby can nap, lol!

He's still coughing lots and turning down bottles. But at least he's eating well. I just hope that whether its a tooth or a cold causing this that it gets better soon!

MrsPear props to you you're doing so great. Stick at it and I've a feeling you'll see even more improvements pretty quick!! Xx

Shadowy good luck with no meds tonight xx


----------



## MrsPear

I don't like to be proven wrong but you guys might be right- I think she just got herself to sleep??! I fed her, then she fell asleep right away (people say don't feed to sleep but I don't think you can really help it if they do) so I put her straight down (before shhh-patting I would have held her to get her to a deep sleep), she woke up, moaned a little so I decided to leave the room right away and try not to wake her fully (patting is all very well but don't you sometimes think it can keep them awake too? Not sure), stood outside and listened for a minute...after about 50 seconds = silence!!

It's only been 10 minutes so she might still just be waiting, but I'm cautiously hopeful.

It is important that she goes to sleep well tonight because I am having my FIRST EVENING OUT! A friend who has spent quite a lot of time with Joni is babysitting. I'm not worried, I know she will work it out even if Joni cries. I'll be back after a couple of hours, only going two streets away.

We are going to move the cot right alongside the bed, I think it'll just be easier to relax during the night time wakings.

Oh and P.S. Interview was terrible! I practically left with my tail between my legs. Never mind, I'm 2/3 through university anyway, so if I don't find something I could always complete my degree in the meantime, so it's not a huge deal.

Eeeee, no noise yet, this is so exciting!

xx


----------



## mrsbeano

Eeeeee go Joni! Enjoy your night off x


----------



## Noelle610

Yay Joni!!! MrsPear have fun!!!!!

Boo, I feel like Charlotte has constantly been sick too. Right there with you!


----------



## bananaz

*MrsPear* - Yay, isn't that such an amazing feeling?? So happy for you :) I'm sorry you felt your interview didn't go well, but please enjoy your evening out! 

*Boo* - I'm glad Jack is sleeping well and self-settling! He's made so much progress. Hope he feels better soon.

*Sunnie* - Sorry your STTN stretch got broken, sounds like a rough start to the day. I can't wait until cold and flu season is over!


Last night was... odd. Elsie woke up at 11:30pm again and normally I would just let her be and see if she settles herself (which she almost always does at that time) but for some reason I thought it was 6am so I ran to her and nursed her and then took her out of her room. Thankfully I managed to get her back to sleep very quickly when I finally snapped out of whatever trance I was in, but WTF?? Why is my half-asleep brain trying to sabotage me?

Anyway, I guess that counted as a dream feed because she then skipped her 2am feeding and slept until 4:30am. At that point I nursed her and put her back down and she really tried to go to sleep but despite both of our best efforts she just couldn't so at 5:30am I finally gave up and got her out of bed for real. We are both sick again so I think maybe her head was bothering her. I'm so tired of these pre-6am wakeups!


----------



## Boo44

Thanks bananaz that bit of positive confirmation really made me smile!!

Ahh I've been there before running into Jack thinking its morning when it is pre midnight! Poor sleep deprived mummies!! That's what it does to you lol. Hope Elsie also gets better soon. Roll on springtime :)


----------



## Shadowy Lady

MrsPear - Hope you enjoyed your night out! 

Bananaz - OMG I do that all the time. I wake up and think it's 6 am....once I even got Sofia outta her sleep suite before realizing it was only 1 am :/

ughhh last night with no meds was tough. I was so exhausted yet I was too scared so I couldn't sleep. I was in bed at 9:30 but didn't sleep till around 11 pm. I then woke up 4 times between that and 3:30 am when I was just up :/ Sofia didn't wake up till 4:45 am when I fed her. After that I managed to nap for another hour but today is rough...

Did any of you ladies try coming off sleep meds? How did you manage it? I only have been taking sleep meds for a week so it's not like it's been forever either...


----------



## MrsPear

Haha Shadowy and Bananaz, that's really funny. My OH does it all the time too- I'll wake up at midnight to see to Joni and he'll be all like, "You have a lie in, I'll take her downstairs", and I have to remind him it's only midnight. Maybe just so I can't accuse him of not offering haha.

Shadowy I'm not sure about the meds because I don't have experience, but I do think you need to give your body time to get used to Sofia's better sleeping pattern. It is so used to waking up all those times, anxiety or not. Sorry you had a rough night, but I am glad that Sofia seems to be getting better at sleeping longer. Fingers crossed she will keep it up, then you might find your body relaxes naturally?

Boo, it's just one cold to the next to teething to something else isn't it. Can't believe you're another one who thinks it's morning when it's midnight! Mind you, I often have really odd thoughts when I'm half asleep, I'm sure I've written in this thread before that I once thought Joni was a greyhound puppy!

Bananaz, that's the worst when you are trying to get your baby to sleep and clock watching and then you realise you have to give up and get up. It's like you're counting down for the hour before, but trying to leave it to the last minute to admit defeat...

We had a good night with Joni. She didn't wake up whilst we were out (got back at 9:30) and I did a dream feed at half ten, then she woke up at 1:50 and 5:10. It's amazing being able to pinpoint when she wakes up rather than just feeling that I spent half the night jiggling her as she stirred in my arms. From 5:30-6:30 we bed shared (but she wasn't in my arms) and she woke up about 6:15 (the last 15 minutes were me trying to stir myself lol).

x


----------



## lysh

Hey ladies....feels like it has been a while since checking in!!! Both LO and I have been sick this week...I have a terrible sinus infection and she has been battling a cold on top of teething!

Well, we had our first STTN! She slept from 7:15-4am! She has never done that. However, that lasted only one night of course! lol 

Bananaz- I feel your pain. I am so tired of LO waking up at 4 am. I would even be happy with a 5 am awakening!!!!! It is making us nuts. 

Noelle- We have been sick constantly too- I am so over this winter season.

MrsPear- We bed share for the last bit of morning time too. Since LO wakes up at 4, I put her in my bed to BF in hopes she will go back to sleep!

Shadowy Lady- I am sorry you keep battling insomnia! That is hard- it is tough enough sleeping around our LOs schedule, never mind fighting that on top of it!!!! I never really took sleep meds for long, so I can't help with that one.


----------



## Aimee1003

Coleton finally sttn again last night!!! First time since Oct 15th"!! He rolled onto his tummy and slept there. Wonder if that was the reason?


----------



## Randianne

So, I'm just going to jump in here and ask a question because you ladies seem to have quite a bit of knowledge about sleep issues and I'm losing my mind.

Have any of your LO's gone through stages of getting very little sleep for days at a time? My LO normally takes one nap for an hour and a half to two hours, and then a second nap of about an hour. For the past three days, she's taken 2-3 naps of no more than 20 minutes. I have tried everything I can think of. She just won't sleep. She's super grumpy because she's so tired. It's starting to effect her night time sleeping too. Last night she only slept from 8pm to 9pm, then 1am-6am, and I say slept loosely because she was waking up every ten to fifteen minutes, crying, and then going back to sleep very quickly. I think the only time she didn't wake was from 4 to 6. 

Any suggestions? She started crawling for last week, so maybe that's it? I don't know. I've just never seen her act like this. She thrashes around like she can't get comfortable, but I don't think she's sick. I have no idea. 

Anyways, thanks for letting me pop in.


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## Boo44

Wow MrsPear that is amazing progress! Am so happy for you!

Shadowy - sorry I don't have much to offer re stopping sleeping meds. I do suffer occasionally with insomnia and constant worry re baby waking though! And I can imagine that if I WAS on meds and then was faced with a night with no meds, that I would worry myself so much about whether I was going to be able to sleep, that I wouldn't end up sleeping! If you see what I mean. Hope things look up for you soon

Libby/Aimee that's amazing that you have both had a sttn!

Randianne- I think some of the girls in here will be able to tell you lots of possibilities but it does sounds to me like your LO may be sensitive to developmental milestones and it could be causing a slight regression of sleep. Hopefully it passes quickly!

Jack has been sleeping well but is still poorly. His cough is really quite terrible. And he sounds v chesty now. We too him to Drs who ended up giving him an inhaler as he gets very wheezy every time he has a cold. The frustrating thing is he won't drink! Cries and refuses bottles. He had a total of 8oz milk in the last 24hrs! I'm going a bit spare with it all. Luckily he's having his food normally so that's something. Just hoping it passes soon ...


----------



## bananaz

Randianne said:


> So, I'm just going to jump in here and ask a question because you ladies seem to have quite a bit of knowledge about sleep issues and I'm losing my mind.
> 
> Have any of your LO's gone through stages of getting very little sleep for days at a time? My LO normally takes one nap for an hour and a half to two hours, and then a second nap of about an hour. For the past three days, she's taken 2-3 naps of no more than 20 minutes. I have tried everything I can think of. She just won't sleep. She's super grumpy because she's so tired. It's starting to effect her night time sleeping too. Last night she only slept from 8pm to 9pm, then 1am-6am, and I say slept loosely because she was waking up every ten to fifteen minutes, crying, and then going back to sleep very quickly. I think the only time she didn't wake was from 4 to 6.
> 
> Any suggestions? She started crawling for last week, so maybe that's it? I don't know. I've just never seen her act like this. She thrashes around like she can't get comfortable, but I don't think she's sick. I have no idea.
> 
> Anyways, thanks for letting me pop in.

How long is your LO going between naps? My baby goes through phases like that every so often. It usually lasts a few days and then she goes back to normal, however sometimes it's because her optimal awake period has lengthened and I'm trying to put her down too early.

The restless nighttime sleep thing could definitely be developmental, though being overtired doesn't help I'm sure. Usually when that happens with my LO it's just a one-night thing, so hopefully you'll have a better night tonight!


----------



## lysh

Aimee1003 said:


> Coleton finally sttn again last night!!! First time since Oct 15th"!! He rolled onto his tummy and slept there. Wonder if that was the reason?

You know, it is interesting because the one and ONLY night LO slept through the night she was on her tummy too!


----------



## Sunnie1984

Hi Everyone, 

Socity - I am sure you've already tried it, but Mrspear is having a lot of success with Joni using ssshhh patting to get her to sleep without being held. I wonder whether it would help Hadley settle to sleep without you holding her? 

Mrspear - Thanks, I think the cold is on its way out now, so hopefully sleep will continue to improve. 

Great news with Joni, that is such fantastic progress, especially do quickly. It's lovely that you got to leave the house, and that Joni didn't wake while you were out. Sorry your interview didn't go well, it's so hard to try and function for things like interviews when you are having sleep battles. 



Shadowy Lady - It would make sense if that was the problem, that Seren needed less sleep, but she regularly did 12 hour stretches before, and had no problems with 4am wake ups. Glad Sofia STTN again for you. Yes there is a WW26, I hope it doesn't last too long for you. :flower:

I'm so sorry that your night with no meds was so tough. I agree with Mrspear that you need time to adapt to Sofia's better sleep pattern to help you have less anxiety about sleeping when you come off the medication. Can you talk to your doctor again? I'm sure she'll be understanding and you can find a way to compromise. :flower:

Boo44 - Thats great news! I agree that you can't always stay in the house, so some naps just aren't going to be as restful as others. I try to be in the house for one nap a day, to see if that helps, although again that's not always possible. 

I hope the inhaler works for Jack. Don't worry about his eating, as long as he's having some solids and it doesn't go on for too long, and he's hydrated, he'll pick back up again.

Bananaz - I wouldn't mind so much be we live in the Middle East, so it's not exactly cold and flu season here, and yet colds are still floating around. I think its because a lot of people go home to the UK and USA over Christmas and brings all the germs back with them and then spread them around here. 

So sorry you had a weird experience, I've often done that, thought it was the middle of the night, when I've only been asleep like 20 mins! At least you got the benefit of no 2am feed though :thumbup:

Pre 6 am wake ups are a killer. I try to keep them as a night waking, but that is not always possible, Seren often has other ideas! :haha:


Lysh - Congrats on STTN - it must feel so good to get a solid block of sleep. 

Aimee - Yay for you too! Congratulations! 

Randianne - we're here at the moment. Seren is taking only 20 minute naps and being awake 3 hours between them, I have no idea why at the moment. No advice though, I have no idea where it comes from. Although she sleeps at night pretty well to compensate. 


We're doing ok over here. Seren was waking at 4:30-5am crying hysterically, wants the dummy for two minutes and then going back to sleep - but that has now stopped. I wonder whether it's because of her cold, the dummy seems to help clear her nose. 

Last night she woke crying at 3am, but I went in to her and she passed wind and went back to sleep. 

Then she woke at 6:30am and we got up at 7am. 

Still having trouble getting her down at night, but I think she's been a bit overtired at going to bed later, so I'm going to have to cut naps short if they happen after 4:30pm, to make sure she's ready for bed at the normal time. 

She has suddenly started going 3 hours between naps, but only naps for 20 minutes. I wonder whether the naps are as a result of the overtired from the late bedtime, but she now needs more awake time between naps. 

I tried putting her down earlier for a nap, which was a waste of time as she just laughed at me! 

She's in a pretty good mood at the moment, so I think we're in the sunny period before WW26 begins, so we're enjoying it while it lasts!


----------



## bananaz

Ughhh well LO has been up since 11:30pm and it's now 1:30am. I've tried patting, back massages, even giving her a drink of water in case her throat was dry (which I'm sure it was after all of her screaming). I'm just letting her fuss on her own now to see if she'll settle herself. 

The past couple nights have been crappy but I had a really good feeling about tonight. I even let myself fantasize a little about her magically sleeping through. I guess that should've been my first clue that it was going to be a disaster :nope:


----------



## mrsbeano

Aww bananaz I hope she wears herself out soon and gives you a nice long stretch x


----------



## lysh

bananaz said:


> Ughhh well LO has been up since 11:30pm and it's now 1:30am. I've tried patting, back massages, even giving her a drink of water in case her throat was dry (which I'm sure it was after all of her screaming). I'm just letting her fuss on her own now to see if she'll settle herself.
> 
> The past couple nights have been crappy but I had a really good feeling about tonight. I even let myself fantasize a little about her magically sleeping through. I guess that should've been my first clue that it was going to be a disaster :nope:

I am sorry- I work with a bunch of women that just do not understand what it is like to have a baby with up and down sleep patterns! Sometimes I feel like I am the only one! I know so many women with babies and yet I am the only one who deals with nighttime struggles. Even when teething, these babies do okay! They might just wake up once instead of not at all! That is the nice thing about the internet- we know we are not alone and crazy! Now that I have gotten some decent stretches of sleep, it is so hard when LO takes a backslide. Did she end up settling back down on her own? Hope you got some sleep!


----------



## Noelle610

Hey girls! Sorry I have been MIA. 

I was so happy to log on and see STTN for both Aimee and Lysh! That is fantastic! I hope you both slept too. 

Sunnie, that doesn't sound too bad. Charlotte used to be able to nap wherever, whenever and sleep fine at night, but at 9 months I've found I need to end naps by 4pm (3pm is really better) and then her ideal bedtime is around 6:30pm-7:30pm. This helps in getting her to go down easy so she's not overtired or undertired.

Radianne, that sounds so, so tough! I'm sorry to see you here. There is a sleep regression around this age and I would bet there's something going on with the crawling. She may be waking herself up crawling in her sleep - Charlotte did that for a bit and it did pass. I think Bananaz also gives good advice about maybe spacing naps a bit. We do well with the 2/3/4 schedule (first nap 2 hours after waking, second 3 hours after that and then bedtime 4 hours later).

Bananaz, we had an identical night on Thursday! Charlotte was up from 11pm to 1am and nothing I tried to get her to sleep was working. I tried cuddling, pacifier, feeding, rocking, everything! I finally gave her advil at 1am and I don't know if she conked out because she was teething or she had just been up for so long. It sucked. Last night was better - she was up at 1am and 3am, but for like 5 minutes only. It sucks that she was STTN and hasn't been sleeping great, but I have super low expectations and I know it could be so much worse. I feel well rested today. And I'm grateful that naps have been wonderful. Either two 90 minute naps or a morning nap of an hour and an afternoon nap of 2 hours. She's getting very consistent with that and it certainly makes things easier.


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## bananaz

At 2am I finally gave in and nursed her and after that she fussed for another 5 minutes before finally going back to sleep. Until 5:30am when she decided she was done sleeping for the night :( It's going to be a long day.

I'm glad you ladies understand how difficult it is to have such an inconsistent sleeper. I really don't understand how she can go from sleeping 8-9 hour stretches to not being able to go 5 hours without waking up to eat? She nurses all day and she gets a good amount of solids now too. I know I shouldn't compare, but she's almost 9 months old - there are 6 week old babies who routinely go 12 hours without eating! 

I feel like maybe I'm confusing her with how inconsistent my response is at night. It seems that every time I come up with a plan for how I'm going to handle her wakings, she comes up with new variables that my plan doesn't take into account.


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## Noelle610

OMFG (excuse my language) but the inconsistency is the worst. I am terrified that 2 hours awake in the middle of the night is going to become Charlotte's new "normal". I won't be able to relax unless she sleeps well for like two weeks straight. When she has a 5 day stretch of STTN, THEN I freak out that it's all going to fall apart. 

I understand your frustration over not being able to respond consistently. I was really good about that when we night weaned from 6-7 months, but I fear I've become more wishy washy. I just feel there's so much going on - with developmental leaps (huge at this age!), teething, the variation in what she eats day to day, separation anxiety - it's just like everything seems to require a different response. I also can't help but feel there's a possibility that I would regret responding less, but that I won't regret being proactive even though that's not necessarily true in my experience.

Anyway, I do find it frustrating that there are small babies that sleep so well. Although I must admit I do wonder what most consider "sleeping through the night". I had breakfast with my best friend and her 6 month old yesterday and she mentioned that Zoey "slept through the night", but that she had to go in and replace her pacifier two or three times or re-settle her. Okay, so she doesn't feed at night, but in my mind that is not sleeping through. She basically admitted that she says Z sleeps through the night because she doesn't want to be judged or questioned and honestly I totally get that.


----------



## bananaz

I'm really glad to hear you say that, though I'm sorry you're struggling with this too! It makes me feel better that I'm not the only one totally confused, especially since I know how much thought and research you've put into this. I know what you mean about things almost being worse when she's sleeping well, though I wouldn't mind a little of that right about now :haha:

To be honest I can't remember the last time I've been able to get Elsie back to sleep without feeding her or just letting her cry for a few minutes. Patting and singing and rocking and all that stuff will often get her calmed down but they haven't actually gotten her to go to sleep in ages - the moment I stop she starts screaming again. I was really trying to stick to my guns last night but she had already been up for over 2 hours and it seemed like she would have no problem staying up all night if that's what it came to. 

It feels like I'm going to have to commit to either the "feed her every time she wakes" attachment parenting camp or the "let her figure it out" Ferber camp in the near future, because clearly my attempt to find some kind of magical middle ground isn't working.


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## socitycourty

i get really mad when people don't understand or try to downplay how awful hadley's sleep is. and also blame it on me. yeah, i do all this for fun! urgh

i still have to feed 1-2 bottles a night. most advice i get is to ler her CIO because she's manipulating me.....wtf


----------



## Noelle610

It's hard, isn't it? I give great sleep advice to the moms in my group and I don't take any of it! It was so funny... We have a facebook page and a woman posted she was going to do sleep training for her daughter's pacifier addiction. Another women commented, "Noelle gave me great advice - stick to it for at least a week before you give up and be consistent!". My husband read this and laughed hysterically as the night prior I'd be trying to feed and rock my kid to sleep :)

My best friend is a CHILD PSYCHOLOGIST and she's confused too. She decided to let her baby CIO after she woke for her pacifier a few weeks ago. It failed miserably - she cried non stop for 2 hours and then she just went and stuck the damn thing in her mouth. She was really frustrated, because of course she's read that it work (and it does for many) and she's like, "What now? Does sleep training not work for my child?". I think the sleep stuff is just hard and so, so temperamental no matter how much control we like to think we have.

I too just want to find a middle ground, but my baby is so extreme that I don't know it works for her.


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## Noelle610

socitycourty said:


> i get really mad when people don't understand or try to downplay how awful hadley's sleep is. and also blame it on me. yeah, i do all this for fun! urgh
> 
> i still have to feed 1-2 bottles a night. most advice i get is to ler her CIO because she's manipulating me.....wtf

Yup, that's annoying. I had a coworker with a toddler who always told me, "It's just a phase! Deal with it!". Okay, yes, while that is true it doesn't help to hear when you're a walking zombie and working 10 hour days. 

I too hate being blamed for how my kid sleeps. A women in my mom group ounce (infamously) told me that she uses lavender lotion and has a bedtime routine, so OF COURSE her baby sleeps through the night. Oh, really? I hadn't thought of THAT! And yes, I did run out and buy the lavender lotion, so top judging me okay ladies? :rofl:


----------



## socitycourty

I've gone through 2 bottles of that stupid bedtime wash...gave up on using it for Hadley, just use it for myself because it's supposed to be "calming":haha:


----------



## bananaz

socitycourty said:


> i get really mad when people don't understand or try to downplay how awful hadley's sleep is. and also blame it on me. yeah, i do all this for fun! urgh
> 
> i still have to feed 1-2 bottles a night. most advice i get is to ler her CIO because she's manipulating me.....wtf

Yeah, that's so frustrating. People always tell me to "just" let her CIO too. If my LO's sleep was consistently awful I might be more inclined to go with something like CIO but I know that she can go to sleep on her own and there are decent stretches of time where she's a pretty good sleeper so I don't know that CIO would really be that helpful for her.

But you know... I haven't tried lavendar lotion. Maybe that's the problem.


----------



## socitycourty

:rofl:


----------



## Shadowy Lady

I missed so much again! Hoping all you ladies got some sleep.

On night 2 of no sleep meds, I did much better. I fell asleep by 9 pm (in bed by 8:30) and woke up at 2:30 am (with only one wakeup in the middle). I was up till 3:30 when Sofia woke up and I fed her. After that I slept till 7 am. I know it sounds like a terrible night to normal ppl but it was better than night 1 and now I know I can do it.

We're going to be away for about 2 weeks starting Wed (visiting inlaws in the Caribbean) and I have to do a lot of packing/organizing as it is the first time we're going away with baby. I won't be on for much during this time but hope you all keep well.

We'll be in touch when we get back. Hugs to you all ladies..


----------



## Noelle610

Shadowy Lady said:


> I missed so much again! Hoping all you ladies got some sleep.
> 
> On night 2 of no sleep meds, I did much better. I fell asleep by 9 pm (in bed by 8:30) and woke up at 2:30 am (with only one wakeup in the middle). I was up till 3:30 when Sofia woke up and I fed her. After that I slept till 7 am. I know it sounds like a terrible night to normal ppl but it was better than night 1 and now I know I can do it.
> 
> We're going to be away for about 2 weeks starting Wed (visiting inlaws in the Caribbean) and I have to do a lot of packing/organizing as it is the first time we're going away with baby. I won't be on for much during this time but hope you all keep well.
> 
> We'll be in touch when we get back. Hugs to you all ladies..

That's a good night for me too. Can't remember the last time I slept 'til 7!

Enjoy your trip! You deserve it.


----------



## Phantom

My LO is 17 months and still wakes multiple times a night. Its really tough. Especially when you hear of other babies who sleep amazingly well. I guess we're just not lucky with sleep.


----------



## bananaz

Shadowy Lady said:


> I missed so much again! Hoping all you ladies got some sleep.
> 
> On night 2 of no sleep meds, I did much better. I fell asleep by 9 pm (in bed by 8:30) and woke up at 2:30 am (with only one wakeup in the middle). I was up till 3:30 when Sofia woke up and I fed her. After that I slept till 7 am. I know it sounds like a terrible night to normal ppl but it was better than night 1 and now I know I can do it.
> 
> We're going to be away for about 2 weeks starting Wed (visiting inlaws in the Caribbean) and I have to do a lot of packing/organizing as it is the first time we're going away with baby. I won't be on for much during this time but hope you all keep well.
> 
> We'll be in touch when we get back. Hugs to you all ladies..

lol Getting over 9 hours of sleep and sleeping until 7am sounds like heaven to me even with a long waking in the middle, but then again I don't think I count as "normal people" at the moment. I'm glad you're getting some rest. Hope you have a good trip! :)


----------



## bananaz

Phantom said:


> My LO is 17 months and still wakes multiple times a night. Its really tough. Especially when you hear of other babies who sleep amazingly well. I guess we're just not lucky with sleep.

:hugs: That is tough. Does he go back to sleep on his own or do you have to feed him or soothe him back to sleep?


----------



## MrsPear

Bananaz, how can you complain when you haven't even put lavender in the bath! Such a simple solution and you'd never have any troubles again!! Seriously though- I agree, there is nothing like a curve ball after two days or so of good sleep and it's soul destroying!

Shadowy that's great you got some sleep, it will get easier sleeping without meds I am sure.

Phantom, I'm sorry you are still experiencing sleep problems, that sucks.

Silver medals to Lysh and Aimee for your LO's sttns...but they can only get gold if they do it a few more times!

boo- I hope Jack is better soon, sounds pretty miserable if he is refusing liquids and needs an inhaler.

Sorry I've been MIA last couple of days. I'm really disappointed about my interview, I thought I was okay about it but I do feel disappointed. I suppose being awake from 3am does not help, I completely froze at all the questions. :cry: She asked me what I can do on Microsoft Word and I could think of a single thing! Moron. 

Anyway, that has nothing to do with sleep but I thought I'd throw it in as you ladies are so nice about everything!

Joni is sleeping okay!! She woke up twice the past two nights!!! I can't believe it. Also, she has cried a few times and got herself back to sleep which has never happened before- I used to wonder what all you meant when you said wait five minutes because she'd be hysterical. But now I think that because she went to sleep in her cot, she isn't surprised to find herself in it when she half wakes up, so she just gets back to sleep without a fuss.

I don't think you can necessarily tell whether what you are doing is making a difference or if it's just coincidence, but whatever, I'll keep up with the shhhpatting for as long as this good pattern is going on. :flower:


----------



## cmarie33

Ladies I'm joining you! Up until a couple of weeks ago lo slept really well! She'd go down fine and only wake once in the night. Hmmmm where did that lovely routine go?! We now have screaming before bed and at least two wakenings in the night. There's nothing wrong with her :( I reassure her I'm there. Once she's asleep her first stint will be 7-8 hours but from about 3am onwards its hit and miss :(


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## L-C

Hi 

Please can I join you, I have an eight and a half month old, who can be up every 40 mins, I'm beside myself tired and on the verge of losing it. Went to see the HV on Thurs and ended up blubbing and so they are visiting on Monday.

As a newborn she was great and slept through to between 3-5 had a feed and then back until 8 ish. Those days are long gone.

I must admit though last night we had a freak good night with DD up twice at 11:30 and 4 am. I however didn't sleep - gutted!! She napped in her bed for and hour and a half today too, after two mins grumbling. That's the first time she;s slept that long during the day in her bed for 5 months. Feel like I'm a total failure and that I've let her down somehow.

Started a diary on the advice of the HV, I did do that with my son, who I thought was a rubbish sleeper but actually turns out he was pretty good. He was really consistent and was only up once or twice, until 11 months when he slept through and has done since!

Hope you all have a better night x


----------



## Larkspur

Ladies, I would love to make individual comments but I am just too tired to read the thread and need a vent and I know you will all understand.

Rafe's sleeping is worse than ever. I'm praying it's a Wonder Week (well, month) because the thought that this might go for months more depresses me.

He wakes up every hour to two hours (two hours is the 'long' stretch at the start of the night). That is bad enough but at least he usually goes back down to sleep very easily after a cuddle and/or a feed, so I am only up for 15 minutes or so at a time. 

Last night he decided to stay awake for an hour at 1am. 

I even tried putting him back in his cot to 'fuss' but he just worked himself up. In the end I put him in the bed with me, where he kicked and flailed around, finally had a tiny snack at 2am and then dropped off into a pretty restless sleep. Hour later, wake up, boob, asleep, repeat till 6.30am. :cry:

I don't know what to do. CC or CIO is simply not an option for me at this stage. People keep saying 'helpful' things like "Your milk probably isn't enough for him, give him formula at night." I'm starting him on solids next week, so I hope that might make a difference, but this baby is 98th percentile for height and weight, he's certainly not starving. In fact, I think part of it is growth spurt, as he grew 3cm in 3 weeks recently. (!!??)

Dear god, I'm so tired. OH is really trying his best and is being a great support, but the weight of this really has to fall on my shoulders (or boobs). My back aches, my head aches, and at the night wakeups I'm so tired it's hard to keep my eyes open. Surprisingly, during the day, once I get past my first coffee, I don't feel so bad.

Oh crap, I've gotta go - he just woke up from his (40-minute) nap. :dohh:


----------



## socitycourty

larkspur, I know the feeling. I've gone over 8 months on crap sleep and it sucks.

Maybe you can start with rice cereal closer to bedtime, some people say it really does help. Although starting solids is a new "adjustment" and may disrupt the sleep briefly, or it may not. My LO started sleeping the teeniest bit better since solids. But by now she's on 3-4 meals a day and has started having the meat jars too.

Good luck!


----------



## Aimee1003

Larkspur- I feel your pain. The weeks where LO woke up every hour or so I slept in the recliner while I fed him. I think ur body just goes into survival mode!!


----------



## Phantom

bananaz said:


> Phantom said:
> 
> 
> My LO is 17 months and still wakes multiple times a night. Its really tough. Especially when you hear of other babies who sleep amazingly well. I guess we're just not lucky with sleep.
> 
> :hugs: That is tough. Does he go back to sleep on his own or do you have to feed him or soothe him back to sleep?Click to expand...

He doesn't go back to sleep on his own. He usually needs milk (really bad, I know) otherwise we would be in his room all night. I haven't been able to try CIO or anything, can't bring myself to do it.


----------



## Aimee1003

Cmarie and LC...welcome. sorry to hear about ur lack of sleep. 5 months is when LOs sleep went all to hell. 4 months of crap sleep but finally things are getting better. Hope u all get some sleep!

Mrs. Pear- Sorry about the interview. Sleep deprivation makes it hard to function.


----------



## bananaz

L-C said:


> Hi
> 
> Please can I join you, I have an eight and a half month old, who can be up every 40 mins, I'm beside myself tired and on the verge of losing it. Went to see the HV on Thurs and ended up blubbing and so they are visiting on Monday.
> 
> As a newborn she was great and slept through to between 3-5 had a feed and then back until 8 ish. Those days are long gone.
> 
> I must admit though last night we had a freak good night with DD up twice at 11:30 and 4 am. I however didn't sleep - gutted!! She napped in her bed for and hour and a half today too, after two mins grumbling. That's the first time she;s slept that long during the day in her bed for 5 months. Feel like I'm a total failure and that I've let her down somehow.
> 
> Started a diary on the advice of the HV, I did do that with my son, who I thought was a rubbish sleeper but actually turns out he was pretty good. He was really consistent and was only up once or twice, until 11 months when he slept through and has done since!
> 
> Hope you all have a better night x

Yikes, up every 40 minutes? You poor thing :hugs: How are you putting her back to sleep? I hope last night wasn't a freak occurrence and you have another good night tonight and are able to get some rest. If you've read any of the other posts here you'll see that a lot of ladies have a hard time sleeping when their babies finally have good nights. It's so frustrating!


----------



## bananaz

Phantom said:


> He doesn't go back to sleep on his own. He usually needs milk (really bad, I know) otherwise we would be in his room all night. I haven't been able to try CIO or anything, can't bring myself to do it.

Even if you're not interested in CIO or CC, you might want to check out Ferber's book called "Solve Your Child's Sleep Problems." He has a great chapter on night weaning and the method he suggests is very gradual and gentle. It helped my LO shift almost all of her feeds to the daytime and I know other people have had even better success with it.


----------



## bananaz

MrsPear said:


> Sorry I've been MIA last couple of days. I'm really disappointed about my interview, I thought I was okay about it but I do feel disappointed. I suppose being awake from 3am does not help, I completely froze at all the questions. :cry: She asked me what I can do on Microsoft Word and I could think of a single thing! Moron.
> 
> Anyway, that has nothing to do with sleep but I thought I'd throw it in as you ladies are so nice about everything!
> 
> Joni is sleeping okay!! She woke up twice the past two nights!!! I can't believe it. Also, she has cried a few times and got herself back to sleep which has never happened before- I used to wonder what all you meant when you said wait five minutes because she'd be hysterical. But now I think that because she went to sleep in her cot, she isn't surprised to find herself in it when she half wakes up, so she just gets back to sleep without a fuss.
> 
> I don't think you can necessarily tell whether what you are doing is making a difference or if it's just coincidence, but whatever, I'll keep up with the shhhpatting for as long as this good pattern is going on. :flower:

I'm so sorry about your interview. Don't beat yourself up about it - sleep deprivation really does have a way of turning a person's brain into mush. There's a reason it's used as a method of torture, after all!

I'm glad to hear Joni is sleeping better. I think I have a tendency of chalking everything up to coincidence and abandoning my attempts before they have a chance to take full effect, so I commend you for sticking with the shush-patting!


----------



## Randianne

Noelle, I had a friend tell me to try rubbing frankincense on LO's feet. I was very confused. I'd only ever heard of it in the three wiseman story in the Bible. I have no idea what is or how to get it, but for days I laughed a lot. Maybe they sleep trained Jesus!

bananaz, I think I give up too easily on some sleep training things too. Quinn came home from the hospital sleeping for six hour stretches. She would fight sleep, but once you convinced her to do it she slept for 8 hours at six weeks. Once I started laying her down drowsy, she went to sleep easily and slept for 10-12 hours. There was no sign of a 4 month sleep regression. I thought I was doing everything right! After 6 months we've hit a series of sleep issues. She tricked me into thinking it was easy to get babies to sttn! It's frustrating when your ten month old sleeps like your newborn should have. She's very, very inconsistent. After my rant about her nap issues, she took two perfect naps and then slept for eight straight hours that night. Tonight she's been in bed since eight and woke up three times. I see no pattern to her sleep at all! 

Larkspur, I've tried to cosleep on nights I was too tired to function, but Quinn kicks too! It's like trying to sleep with a tiny kickboxer. 

Its frustrating because I'm so problem-solution oriented and it's just not that simple to get her to sleep. I also read everything because I feel like the next tip in a book or online might be the magic solution! I know there's no magic solution, but my brain keeps telling me the only reason she's not sleeping is because I haven't found said magic. I frustrate myself.


----------



## bananaz

Randianne said:


> Noelle, I had a friend tell me to try rubbing frankincense on LO's feet. I was very confused. I'd only ever heard of it in the three wiseman story in the Bible. I have no idea what is or how to get it, but for days I laughed a lot. *Maybe they sleep trained Jesus!*

:rofl:


----------



## Noelle610

I'm sorry to see all of you new ladies here! Welcome to our group - hope we can be helpful and supportive through your sleep deprivation :)

MrsPear, please don't beat yourself up. I thought about looking for a new job this year and I really honestly don't think I'm capable of interviewing! So that fact that you got that far is impressive. And I'm glad to hear Joni is doing so well. Keep with it.

Radianne, you made me laugh out loud! 

We had another difficult night! Long waking from 2am to 3am. They're not happy wakings either. I'm not sure what's going on. Her schedule is perfect with beautiful naps (2 hours in the morning and 90 minutes in the afternoon yesterday). I don't think it's developmental - like crawling in her sleep. Teething, maybe? I feel a bit discouraged and wonder if I need to sleep train now that reflux is controlled. I know that's a hot topic here, but I just don't know how else to handle this. I usually go in and rock her for a bit when she wakes, but then it seems she needs me for subsequent wakings even though she falls asleep on her own at bedtime.


----------



## bananaz

Noelle610 said:


> We had another difficult night! Long waking from 2am to 3am. They're not happy wakings either. I'm not sure what's going on. Her schedule is perfect with beautiful naps (2 hours in the morning and 90 minutes in the afternoon yesterday). I don't think it's developmental - like crawling in her sleep. Teething, maybe? I feel a bit discouraged and wonder if I need to sleep train now that reflux is controlled. I know that's a hot topic here, but I just don't know how else to handle this. I usually go in and rock her for a bit when she wakes, but then it seems she needs me for subsequent wakings even though she falls asleep on her own at bedtime.

In my (admittedly limited) experience, going to sleep and night wakings aren't always as connected as all the sleep books would have you believe. Elsie started self-settling at the beginning of the night a lot sooner than she started being able to put herself back to sleep when she'd woken all the way up at night, and obviously that's still hit and miss for her right now. So sleep training for night wakings might be not be an unreasonable move to make even if Charlotte can self-settle at bedtime.


Last night was somewhat better for us. She skipped the 9pm waking but she did have that stupid 11:30pm one yet again. Thankfully she managed to put herself back to sleep after only a few minutes of fussing and she stayed asleep until 2:30am, when I nursed her. Then she woke again at 4am :( I let her fuss for a while and there were several times where it seemed like she'd gone back to sleep but then she'd start crying again, so finally at 4:45am I just gave up and fed her again and after that she went back to sleep until 6am.

I was talking with my mom about these issues yesterday and I decided that I really need to just take the plunge and night wean her because right now my response is so inconsistent that I think it's making LO confused. So the plan is that if the situation hasn't improved by Friday then my mom will sleep over for a few nights and we'll just power through it. Not looking forward to it but I can't keep going like this!

On the bright side, I tried a little chai tea the other day and Elsie didn't seem to be affected so I am adding caffeine back to my diet! :happydance:


----------



## socitycourty

yay on the caffeine. And good luck with the night weaning, I think it will help (I've heard from some other BF moms that it does) and she is eating solids and eating during the day so you know she's not starving if she does wake up, I want to wean Hadley from her bottles at night (usually it's 2) but not sure how to go about it as she's not good with milk during the day and I'm afraid she's legitimately hungry when she wakes up as opposed to just wanting it for comfort.....


----------



## Boo44

Bananaz that would make me soooo happy starting caffeine again! Go you! Will help with the sleep-deprived mornings :)

Jack's cough is still going strong :( He stayed over at my parents' last night and apparently was up coughing at 10.30pm and then coughing on and off from 5.30am. Just wish it would go away already!

If you do decide to sleep train Noelle we're right behind you! And will be interested to see what happens! Although it does seem like Charlotte is generally really improved so maybe wait a bit and see if whatever issue it is passes? She may surprise you!

I know the feeling though, at the moment jack has this cough. But he also may be teething. So I just keep thinking well even if his cough goes his teeth will be upsetting him. Argh! I think I need to chill out and stop searching for the perfect day. Like when he's not ill, he's not teething, he's slept fine and is eating/drinking well. We have had days like that but something always comes along to upset the balance. So I think I need to accept that this slightly fussy grumpy phase may actually just be the normal and be happy with that. Lol!


----------



## Noelle610

Aw Boo, sorry Jack is still sick. Poor kid.

Bananaz, yay for caffeine!!!! It would be great if you could have your mom for support in night weaning. It's not easy, but quick and I think Elise is a smart kid :)

So, I have spent the majority of my day trying to lay my former perfect napper down because she just learned to stand in her crib. Tonight should be fun.


----------



## mrsbeano

Noelle610 said:


> Aw Boo, sorry Jack is still sick. Poor kid.
> 
> Bananaz, yay for caffeine!!!! It would be great if you could have your mom for support in night weaning. It's not easy, but quick and I think Elise is a smart kid :)
> 
> *So, I have spent the majority of my day trying to lay my former perfect napper down because she just learned to stand in her crib. Tonight should be fun.*

We're kind of having this but only with sitting. You lay him down and by the time you've drawn the curtains he's sitting up so I just leave his blanket near him and leave. No idea how long it takes for him to lay down though! Does she know how to get down?


----------



## Noelle610

mrsbeano said:


> Noelle610 said:
> 
> 
> Aw Boo, sorry Jack is still sick. Poor kid.
> 
> Bananaz, yay for caffeine!!!! It would be great if you could have your mom for support in night weaning. It's not easy, but quick and I think Elise is a smart kid :)
> 
> *So, I have spent the majority of my day trying to lay my former perfect napper down because she just learned to stand in her crib. Tonight should be fun.*
> 
> We're kind of having this but only with sitting. You lay him down and by the time you've drawn the curtains he's sitting up so I just leave his blanket near him and leave. No idea how long it takes for him to lay down though! Does she know how to get down?Click to expand...

You know, she knows how to get from a seated position to laying down, so I assume she could get down from a standing positioning but I'm not sure. I guess I should probably try to work on it with her after the "nap" (if it even happens at this point).


----------



## bananaz

Noelle610 said:


> So, I have spent the majority of my day trying to lay my former perfect napper down because she just learned to stand in her crib. Tonight should be fun.

Ugh, yeah the standing thing can be a pain. For us it was a much bigger issue than sitting up, mainly because she learned to do it before she had totally mastered getting down. Hopefully Charlotte will get it figured out quickly for both your sakes!

*Boo* - Sorry to hear Jack's still feeling rough :( It's so frustrating that you can't give them cough medicine at this age. When my LO was dealing with the same issue her pediatrician suggested that Benadryl might help if the cough is being caused by post-nasal drip.


----------



## Noelle610

bananaz said:


> Noelle610 said:
> 
> 
> So, I have spent the majority of my day trying to lay my former perfect napper down because she just learned to stand in her crib. Tonight should be fun.
> 
> Ugh, yeah the standing thing can be a pain. For us it was a much bigger issue than sitting up, mainly because she learned to do it before she had totally mastered getting down. Hopefully Charlotte will get it figured out quickly for both your sakes!
> 
> *Boo* - Sorry to hear Jack's still feeling rough :( It's so frustrating that you can't give them cough medicine at this age. When my LO was dealing with the same issue her pediatrician suggested that Benadryl might help if the cough is being caused by post-nasal drip.Click to expand...

I hope she figures it out! A lot of the moms in my moms group have older babies. A few mentioned they only had one bad night and others said this went on for weeks! Why do I feel like Charlotte will be in the "went on for weeks" camp? 

A bit off topic, but I cannot tell you ladies how many times I fantasized about giving my LO benadryl because I figured she'd sleep great :rofl: I know that's not a good reason to medicate a baby, but when you're desperate you think of crazy things!


----------



## MrsPear

Ha, we are all looking at the thread at the same time! Hi guys!


----------



## bananaz

Noelle610 said:


> A bit off topic, but I cannot tell you ladies how many times I fantasized about giving my LO benadryl because I figured she'd sleep great :rofl: I know that's not a good reason to medicate a baby, but when you're desperate you think of crazy things!


Haha, I've given Elsie benadryl at bed maybe 3 or 4 times to help make her comfortable when she has an eczema flare-up (per her pedi's advice). I debated about it for a while because I was worried that my real motivation was just to sedate her so I could get some rest :blush: But she was so itchy and I knew it was safe so I finally got up the courage and gave her a dose. As it turns out, it doesn't make much a difference for her sleep. She doesn't go to bed any easier and she doesn't sleep any better than normal, which seems crazy because the same little dose would probably knock me out cold! I guess I should just be glad she's not one of those kids who gets hyper on it.


----------



## mrsbeano

Aww, I always try and have a look but don't always comment. 

We have had an awesome couple of weeks of 12 hours sttn but the last couple of night he has woke up and demanded a bottle. I can only really assume its a growth spurt because he polished it off and wouldn't settle without it at all. Fingers crossed its passed in a week or else its back to the night weaning! 

Least hes settling quickly, was only awake for about 15 minutes myself last night so no complaints! x


----------



## MrsPear

Charlotte is hitting loads of milestones, but I hope she still sleeps okay tonight. Sometimes they surprise you and a day with good naps is not a good night and then a day with awful naps turns into a great night.

Bananaz, that is a better night than before but you still didn't get a really good stretch of sleep. Hope tonight's the night, and if not then coffee first thing tomorrow. Caffeine has pretty much got me through the past few months.

Boo I am sorry to hear Jack is still sick, poor little guy. Worth a try to give benedryl definitely.

Lots of new people! Hello! Sorry you are getting sleep deprived :hugs: I am rubbish at offering advice because basically I try something different with Joni nearly everynight and have no consistency to my method (neither does she, coincidence?!) but you all have my sympathies.

Anyway, I have some exciting news- yesterday Joni went to sleep at 7 (did shhhpatting as normal but had to go back twice as she started crying, third time she let out a few sleepy moans and went to sleep), I did a dream feed at 10, she woke at 4 (6 HOURS, LONGEST SHE HAS EVER SLEPT!), I fed her and she slept 4:30-6:20. All in her cot! I was trying to remember the last time she did a night in her cot, I think it was before 4 months.

Tonight, I sat next to her but didn't do any patting (or shhhhing) and she was just playing in her cot, clearly completely relaxed, so I left the room, she did some moany cries for less than 2 minutes and she was asleep. 

Don't want to get too hopeful, but I am so excited.

Also, thanks for your commiserations on the interview- I'm over it now, found another (better) one to apply to :flower:

x


----------



## Boo44

Thanks for the Benadryl tip! What exactly is that, is it an antihistamine? Am feeling sorry for the poor guy as he seems to be developing my tendencies to eczema and ?asthma, sob sob. He has gone to bed absolutely fine tonight but I can hear him wheezing! And that will turn into a cough come about 5am I just know it!

Wow MrsPear that progress is amazing!!!'


----------



## bananaz

*MrsPear* - That is soooo awesome! Go Joni! :happydance:

*Boo* - Yep, it's an antihistamine. It tends to have a sedating effect on a lot of people which is part of why it's no longer labelled for use in infants in the US (I guess people were using it to get their babies to sleep on a regular basis) but it's very safe and if you speak to your LO's pediatrician they will probably give you dosing information. It's pretty much the only antihistamine that helps with eczema.


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## Noelle610

GOOOOOOOOOOOOO JONI! That made my night MrsPear :)

So Charlotte refused her second nap and was awake from 11:30am until I put her down at 6:00pm. The longest she has EVER BEEN AWAKE. She did the "I'm going to stand in my crib and scream and then laugh when you come to lay me down" thing for like 30 minutes and I think she finally crashed. Tonight should be interesting.


----------



## Randianne

Noelle, the pulling up in the crib thing is beyond frustrating. And mine laughs at me too!

bananaz, what lotions/bath products do you use during a flare up? My LO has eczema too and we're in the midst of a bad flare up. Nothing seems to be working, and I want to try all our options before we start steroids. Any suggestions?


----------



## bananaz

Randianne said:


> bananaz, what lotions/bath products do you use during a flare up? My LO has eczema too and we're in the midst of a bad flare up. Nothing seems to be working, and I want to try all our options before we start steroids. Any suggestions?

CeraVe cream is the BEST! You have to get the thick stuff in a tub though, not the lotion. When LO is having a flare-up I put it on her at every diaper change, and then the rest of the time I just put it on after baths. I haven't had to use steroids on her since she was 6 weeks old thanks to CeraVe. As far as bath products I usually use Cetaphil or Aquaphor body washes - both seem to work fine and don't irritate her skin.

Also, you may have already done this but if not then it's definitely worth switching to a hypoallergenic laundry detergent and rewashing everyone's clothes. Laundry detergent residue is a big trigger for Elsie, as it is for a lot of babies I think.


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## Sunnie1984

Hi Ladies, 

Sorry to see some new faces in here, I hope you're not stuck in sleep limbo too long! 

Bananaz - Sorry Elsie is having a tough time with her sleep. I know what you mean about being inconsistent, it's just so hard to figure out what they need, rather than what they would just like. 

Perhaps Elsie is one of those babies who responds better to tougher sleep training, like with megangrohl?

Good luck with the night weaning, I'm glad your mum is around to step in and help. Hopefully it won't be too tough. 

Noelle - Thanks, nights here are pretty good in context, it's just the hysterical screaming when she wakes up that is a bit draining, I think it's a mix of lots of different things, although it's probably none of them :haha:

Sorry Charlotte is struggling again, but it does sound developmental, especially with the standing in the cot. Random question, but I read somewhere that to get them to learn to lie back down, you put their hands around the bars on the cot and slide them down, it gets them to sit automatically apparently, have you tried it? 

Not that I know what I'm talking about, we've still got a long way to go before that! 

I found with Seren that good naps generally mean't she'd had a bad night the night before and nothing else, when she STTN her naps went to pot again! 

Shadowy Lady - Glad the no meds worked much better the second night. Enjoy your holiday, I hope Sofia has a relaxing time too! 

Phantom :hugs:

Mrspear - Wonderful news with Joni, she is doing so so well! Congratulations on sticking with it too, I know how hard it is to keep going in the middle of a very sleep deprived night. 

cmarie - You might find you are entering wonder week 26 - which brings with it lots of fussiness and night wakings. Separation anxiety kicks in then, so that might be the problem?

LC - :hugs: to you too. You not sleeping when your baby is has got to be the worst. 

Larkspur - You are definitely at the right stage for wonder week 26, fingers crossed that that is all it is and it passes quickly. The MOTN parties are generally developmental, so they shouldn't last too long. 

Randianne - Inconsistency is the worst, I feel like I have no idea what's coming each and every night at the moment. 

Boo44 - Sorry Jack still has that cough, I hope that's all that is disrupting his sleep and that he can get back to normal after it goes away. 

Sorry, can't respond to everyone, as Seren is waking up from her nap after only 20 minutes! Aaaarrgggghhhhh! 

We're doing good on the night sleeping here, although still waking at about 5:30am. I have finally figured that it's better to let Seren go without a last nap, and get her to bed at 6:30pm rather than let her nap and go to bed later as she gets overtired. 

But last night she had really bad wind again, so was up every 10 minutes from 6:30 -8pm until it was all gone. So that has thrown everything out completely! 

I've decided to go back to the baby whisperer book and transition her to the 4 hourly schedule (she's already on it for feedings but not for wake time) and see if it helps. I did it before Christmas and she started taking 2 hour afternoon naps, but then it all fell apart when we travelled. 

I'm also going to leave her in her cot when she wakes from naps until she cries, hoping she'll go back to sleep. No hope of that actually working, but at least I get a bit more time to myself. 

She has a bit of a cold still, but it's more of a cough than a cold, so hoping this is the last bit and it goes away. 

Although fussy period for WW26 has just started, hang onto your hats, it's going to be a bumpy ride! 

x


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## Randianne

bananaz said:


> Randianne said:
> 
> 
> bananaz, what lotions/bath products do you use during a flare up? My LO has eczema too and we're in the midst of a bad flare up. Nothing seems to be working, and I want to try all our options before we start steroids. Any suggestions?
> 
> CeraVe cream is the BEST! You have to get the thick stuff in a tub though, not the lotion. When LO is having a flare-up I put it on her at every diaper change, and then the rest of the time I just put it on after baths. I haven't had to use steroids on her since she was 6 weeks old thanks to CeraVe. As far as bath products I usually use Cetaphil or Aquaphor body washes - both seem to work fine and don't irritate her skin.
> 
> Also, you may have already done this but if not then it's definitely worth switching to a hypoallergenic laundry detergent and rewashing everyone's clothes. Laundry detergent residue is a big trigger for Elsie, as it is for a lot of babies I think.Click to expand...

Thank you! I will get some first thing tomorrow. Poor LO is so itchy tonight! I think laundry soap is what triggered this outbreak. I usually make my own, but I keep regular stuff on hand for OH's work clothes. He was trying to be helpful by doing laundry for me, but he washed everything in regular detergent. I didn't figure it out for a few days, and now she has the worst outbreak. I rewashed everything twice in the homemade detergent and vinegar, but I'm not sure all the residue is completely out. It's amazing the problems detergent can cause!


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## MrsPear

Randianne and Bananaz I feel for both your LOs with eczema, I had it mildly occasionally as a child (not a baby I don't think) and it was so itchy. I think babies really do have high thresholds, they just put up with all sorts don't they! Make me feel bad for complaining.

Sunnie the last line of your comment made me laugh, you're right it is a bumpy ride!! Poor Seren, caught in between colds and wonder weeks, no wonder she can't get any good sleep :-(

We had another good night last night, no 6 hour stretches but I really don't care about that at this stage, I'm just savouring feeding her and then putting her back and stretching out, on my back, and getting comfy again. I'm not a person who sleeps right through the night anyway, so getting up a couple of times for a simple feed suits me fine. She did wake really screaming at 5:30 so I thought there's no way she'll go back down now and decided to put her straight in bed with me, but by the time I put my dressing gown on and walked down half the stairs there was silence...unfortunately our stairs are really really creaky so I was too scared to move and stood there a good fifteen minutes before creeping back upstairs. Suddenly she seems to be able to self settle like a pro, so I really need to work on waiting a couple of minutes before fetching her (hark at me, she's had 4 good nights and I'm talking as though she's a perfect sleeper now...setting myself up for a fall?!!).

x


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## Noelle610

MrsPear, very pleased to hear about the subsequent great nights. Sounds like you're turning a corner.

Last not was GOD AWFUL for us. I'm trying to have a sense of humor about it, because it's really the only way I know how to handle it. The standing in the crib thing was not actually an issue, but.... If I ever doubted the "experts" on overtired = night wakings, I sure as hell believe them now. My lovely daughter was up for 7 hours straight, which is insane. I put her to bed at 5:45pm and she fell asleep around 6:15pm. Then she proceeded to wake at 7pm, 8pm, 9:45pm all the way until 11:30pm. I'm ashamed to say at that point I let her cry a bit, because all of the rocking and cuddling in the world was not putting her to sleep! She then finally drifted into a deep sleep until around 4:45am, had another night waking and at 6:22am is still sleeping. I truthfully was just so glad for that 5 hour stretch so that I could at least lay down and get a couple hour's rest. I was so on edge that I had to pop a Benadryl in addition to my sleep meds.

Here's hoping she gets back on her schedule at daycare and that tonight is better. She sleeps in a Pack-n-Play there, so I don't think she can do the standing routine! Man, I am tired. Hope this doesn't become our new "normal".


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## MrsPear

Sorry you had a bad night Noelle, I hope you manage to swing the naps back into sync very very soon. Don't worry about taking a benedryl if it meant you got some sleep, ometimes you just have to do what you have to do to get by. It sounds like you need a better stretch tonight so fingers crossed you get one xxx


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## Sunnie1984

Mrspear - So glad you seem to be getting some consistency. Do you feel any better rested, or are you just shattered as your body tries to catch up? 

I often feel worse when Seren STTN again after some wakings, as I think my body tries to get back all the sleep it can. :haha:

Noelle - So sorry you had another rough night with Charlotte. I agree overtired wakings are the worst because you feel you can never catch up with her need for sleep. Hopefully some schedule at nursery will sort her out ready for tonight, and hopefully she'll be just tired enough to at least give you some decent stretches. 

I think all the bad fairies have invaded the house today. To add to the last bits of her cold and the start of WW26, we now have teething and a growth spurt... I think. 

She woke at 5:30am this morning screaming and nothing but a bottle would settle her (we haven't had to do night feeds since she was 9 weeks old). Then all day she was fussy, and the only thing that helped was anbesol on her teeth, so pretty sure she's teething. 

Bath at 5:45pm tonight, usually she's well asleep by 6:30pm. Well between 5:15pm and 7:15pm she ate 390mls of formula and finally passed out.... to wake 30 minutes later needing to be winded again and demanding more food.

I just hope she's been fully stuffed with food and she can sleep properly tonight. 

Growth spurts are over pretty quickly, right? 

She was wincing when I gave her anbesol this afternoon, which I am hoping means the tooth has split the gum and is on it's way out, although I can't really see in her mouth to check. 

Maybe it's not teething at all though, and she just likes the taste of anbesol! :dohh:

x


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## bananaz

*Noelle* - So sorry about the rough night :( Yes, being super overtired is definitely a recipe for a bad night. Don't be ashamed about letting her cry for a little bit after soothing her didn't work. Elsie has been the same way for the past couple of weeks - no amount of rocking or patting will settle her but if I let her cry for 5 minutes she'll go to sleep. I think sometimes they just need to discharge some energy. I hope Charlotte has a better day and night!

*Sunnie* - WW26 is tough but I think it went faster than other WWs for us, though maybe I'm just glossing over the gory details! I hope Seren works through whatever's going on with her ASAP :hugs:


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## socitycourty

Totally lost it this morning. I have had a horrible toothache since yesterday morning, all I wanted was to sleep....well she had other ideas. Didn't go to bed till nearly 11, up several times in the night and then up at 6:30 a.m. I can't take it anymore!

I yelled at her, yelled at my DH, I haven't slept past 7 since May 31st 2012.


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## MrsPear

Oh Socity I'm sorry :-( It's like a vicious circle isn't it because you get mad, yell (I've been there loads of times), and then it makes you feel more miserable and terribly guilty and then you're half way to getting mad again :-( Get well soon, toothache is the absolute worst, it's like it envelopes your whole head. It's horrible horrible horrible being so sleep deprived too. When Joni won't sleep I've been known to launch whatever I can get my hands on across the room (minus the baby- I'll just quickly make that disclaimer- the baby is never launched) and go to another room to scream. Anyway, I'm sorry I can't say much particularly useful but I just feel so sad when other people experience that sort of day too because I know it so excrutiatingly well!!

Sunnie does Seren have any teeth already? I'm only asking because then you might recognise if it's teething with a bit more certainty. For Joni, she really did sleep badly the week before the teeth came through and would hardly be put down at all, it was so tough. So it could definitely be teething. But then again, take your pick, it could also be wonder week, still suffering from her cold...as I always say, it's usually pretty much guess work. Hope she sleeps better tonight.

In response to your question Sunnie, I do feel quite tired still but I have had a cold this week so it's probably that. OH and me both noticed that Joni was in a much better mood than normal this weekend, less clingy and laughing more when she was playing, so I think she's the one who is benefiting the most! I'm definitely less short tempered which is no bad thing as I feel very ashamed of how angry and annoyed I feel inside sometimes. x


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## daneuse27

Joni - I get so enraged sometimes when my daughter won't sleep too. A couple nights ago, it took 2 hours for her to go to sleep and I was getting so frustrated that I had to leave the room and wanted to punch a hole in the wall. I hate that I get so annoyed over it, but its very hard when all you want to do is sleep and the baby just isn't cooperating. lol. Even though I know its not her fault, I feel bad! But I think its totally normal.

I want to say thank you to Noelle and the lovely laidies who advised me to put my daughter down after 1.5-2 hopurs after the night sleep; all the advice on this thread has really helped me.

I've developed a naptime trick that I'd really like some opinions on, because although its been working (so far) I feel bad doing it. This is how it goes: I usually nurse her before a nap, and then she falls asleep in my arms. Then, I put her in the crib and she wakes up, refusing to go back to sleep. Once shes in the crib, I don't pick her back up again because I want her to get used to going for naps in the crib. I leave the room, and after several minutes, she starts to fuss. The fuss soon turns into a cry. Rather than running back in right away, I let her cry for 5 minutes or so, and then I go back in and I give her the pacefier. Usually by then she's so relieved to have the pacefier that it soothes her right to sleep and she naps! I feel slightly guilty going about this trick, because I hate listening to her cry. It makes me feel guilty and I worry that maybe she'll think I don't love her (as silly as it sounds) if Im not running back in as soon as she cries. But I need her to get used to naps and come to expect whats going to happen. I've been reading about how separation anxiety kicks in around this age, and as a single mom I really can't afford her to be on my boob all the time. She needs to nap in her crib and this has helped her do it. Am I going about this the right way? Do you think this will develop good habits?

A little more background info:
-She only ever uses the pacifier for sleep aid, she's not interested in it during the day, or do I offer it during wake times
-I try to put her down after 2 hours of waking from nigh, and then every few hours from then on.


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## socitycourty

i feel terrible but definitely have been enraged a lot of the time..........i just want to sleep alone for a few hours.....it seems like heaven ATM

she's finally napping in my arms of course and i feel horrid, like she needs a new mom


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## L-C

Oh socity, I've so been there!! a lot in fact and I think it happens to most. They just push us and push us.

This should cheer you up. I went to the supermarket yesterday and tried on some trousers. I had a pair of leggings on, with a stiched fake fly. When I got home I realised I had put them on back to front and had finished the food shop like it ha ha

Daneuse I think that sounds like a good way to get your LO to sleep and should help you LO learn to settle xx


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## socitycourty

lol!


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## Boo44

Hey ladies. Can anyone explain how to night wean for me in a nutshell? It's not for me, but for my friend who also has an 8 month old who is demanding at least 2 bottles per night. She goes back to work next wk and is desperate! I told her I 'knew' just the people to ask....! X


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## bananaz

Boo44 said:


> Hey ladies. Can anyone explain how to night wean for me in a nutshell? It's not for me, but for my friend who also has an 8 month old who is demanding at least 2 bottles per night. She goes back to work next wk and is desperate! I told her I 'knew' just the people to ask....! X

The method I'm familiar with involves reducing each feeding by an ounce a night (or every few nights if that's easier), and then also increasing the minimum length between feedings. So if baby usually gets a 6-ounce bottle and eats every 2 hours then the first night you'd give them a 5-ounce bottle and wait a minimum of 2.5 hours before feeding again, etc. Apparently by the time you get down to only 2-3 ounces many babies stop waking for the feed altogether. 

Alternately I know that some people will gradually dilute the milk with water, ounce by ounce, so that baby's tummy gets filled but the calorie intake is still shifted to the daytime. 

Other people can probably fill you in on the details but I think that's usually the general idea :flower:


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## x Michelle x

Hi ladies, I've always randomly posted in here but here is a little update...
Hayden's sleep is improving!! 
For a few weeks he was bed at 6:30, up at 10, 1, 3 then 5 for the day...
But he was also teething so didn't want to piss him off so just fed him back to sleep every time.
One night, he woke at 10. I made the decision that if he seemed ok then he wasn't getting fed. Now, he is almost a year, in 3 meals and 3 bottles a day, I'm sure the night feeds are habit (my fault of course lol) so, I went up, gave him a cuddle. He was perfectly happy, standing grinning as soon as he saw me.. I offered him some water, got a look of disgust... Gave him another cuddle, some teething powder (just incase) gave him kiss, told him it was bedtime and laid him down.
Now, you all probably know your babies cries? We had rage.. Utter rage... But I left him, it broke my heart but we really needed to just try something, anything (rocking, shhh pat has never worked) anyway, we were watching him on the monitor, standing, sitting, rattling the bars and raging. We live in a brand new house and his 2 year old sister is in the next room. Our walls are like paper so we knew just how much we were risking with possibly waking her but I really just wanted to try, just for 5 mins to see if he would go back to sleep. Ill add here that Hayden self settles for all his naps, and at bed time. After 5 mins, rage turned quiet, a few thumps (he was rolling to get comfy) and he slept til 2, had a bottle, then slept til 7. For the last 2 weeks, he has gone down at 6:30, woke anything between 12-3 but just for a bottle and slept again til 7am....
But, I noticed he cut a tooth the other day, his 13th one lol! So fully expecting a crappy night and warning my OH that ill feed him if he won't settle, he slept for 13 hours!! Yes ladies, 13 whole hours! He woke at 9:30, but only as his dummy had fallen out of the cot but took it and went straight back to sleep!

I know it was only a one off, the 3rd full 12 hour sleep in his entire life (I don't count the ones my mum claims he does when he stays there lol) but I just know he can do it :)

My god that was a loooong!!


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## Boo44

Thanks bananaz that's great x


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## MrsPear

socitycourty said:


> i feel terrible but definitely have been enraged a lot of the time..........i just want to sleep alone for a few hours.....it seems like heaven ATM
> 
> she's finally napping in my arms of course and i feel horrid, like she needs a new mom

No she doesn't need a new mum. Honestly, I'm sure nearly everyone has those moments, some more than others (me). Some days I am literally at the end of my tether with Joni. It's awful, I'm not at all proud. Such a horrible feeling. But I'm generally a 'normal' person, I'm just an average-joe. So, I figure, I'm probably not that different to everyone else. If you weren't so sleep deprived you would feel so much more confident that you can cope. Even sleep deprived, you can still cope and you're still an absolutely fantastic mum, it just feels a lot closer to snapping point. 

I'm sure babies do pick up on some emotions, but when she's asleep in your arms, all she knows is that she's warm and cosy and safe- thankfully for us they have no context or reference point so they really don't know about or care about what frustration/sadness/uncertainty is going through your mind. She's just enjoying your warmth and smell and wouldn't want to be without you :hugs:

xx


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## socitycourty

:hugs: i just feel bad for being so absolutely grouchy and also yelling, at times.


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## anti

Just need to rant.... It's now 4am and we have been up for close to 2 hours now!!!! Why won't she sleep??! I'm so tired.... :(


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## Sunnie1984

Is it morning already? 

Socity - so sorry you have toothache, that's the last thing you need on top of bad sleep. I don't know whether your DH could take a couple of days off work, or at the weekend, and you go to stay at a hotel or at a friends house etc and just sleep for a couple of days? 

Perhaps if you could just catch up on some sleep, it would make everything else a little easier to bear if you come back refreshed? :flower:

Mrspear - Seren has cut her back molars a little (don't ask me how) but they are not above the surface, just a sharp slit on top of the gum. So no real teeth yet. I hope it gets easier once she actually cuts one, but it seems to be going on forever. 

I bet Joni is feeling much better now she is actually getting some sleep! I hope your cold disappears too so you can also feel much better rested. 

Don't worry, we all get mad and shout sometimes, especially when our babies are resisting change. It's totally normal. 

Daneuse - So glad you are having some success with an earlier nap time. Don't worry about a bit of crying, if it means so goes to bed with little fuss and is well rested after her nap, it's fine, It's not like you left her to cry for a week straight :thumbup:

Michelle - So glad you are having some progress! 

Anti - so sorry you are having a MOTN party. Is she learning anything new like trying to stand or walk? Long night wakings are usually developmental. 


We were up every three hours last night. I'm having a bit of a crisis of confidence at the moment, feel like I don't even know my own baby and have no idea whats wrong. 

We seem to be rid of the cold - thankfully. 

But she woke every three hours screaming. I went in, gave her anbesol, a cuddle for about 30 seconds, and she put her head on my shoulder and sucked her thumb to go back to sleep and I put her down. 

I don't really know if it was teething, so the anbesol helped, or whether she was just checking I was still there, although I don't think we're in the thick of the wonder week yet, so not sure if separation anxiety should have started.

She could also have been overtired from going to bed late last night because she was cluster feeding.... who really knows! 

This morning she was awake for just over 2 hours and fell asleep on me, so she went to bed..... for a whole 20 minutes. 


I give in.... well I don't really, I'm sure I'll have come up with something else to try in about half an hour! 

Consistent, consistent, consistent.......


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## anti

Sunnie thanks for that... I totally didn't think about it but in the last 4 days or so she's learning to really bear weight on her legs so I guess that's the start of the learning to stand milestone. I just didn't think of that at stupid o'clock in the morning!!


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## x Michelle x

So many things to try aren't there sunnie! 
We had 12h last night... Bed at 6:30, up at 6:45 and nothing inbetween. 2 nights in a row, I daren't even hope this is it as I dont want to jinx it! 
Anti, definitely sounds like your LO is learning new things and its affecting sleep


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## Noelle610

We had a strange and wonderful night. After hourly wakings, Charlotte went to sleep at 6:30pm and at 5:30am is still sleeping soundly - not even a peep all night long. So weird. She must be the most inconsistent kid ever. Ask Moxie (great blog!) does mention that after a developmental spurt, babies will often sleep through for 3 nights or so and shock the hell out of their parents because their kind of "catching up". 

If only I could sleep! I've been up since 4am! I did go to bed at 8:30pm, so that certainly helps.


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## MrsPear

Hooray Michelle and Noelle!! But big sad face for you Anti- MOTN raves are hard to bare. Sunnie, you sound like me trying something else every 20 minutes. Sticking to one thing had amost 100% certainly helped though, although at the back of your mind you do always wonder if it's just coincidence.

Last night was not great because Joni is horribly constipated. She has been screaming in pain intermittently. I'm trying to force water on her today and she is NOT pleased about that. I don't really mind getting up when she's not well or in pain but I'm just praying that all the good work over the past week isn't undone!!


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## bananaz

*Sunnie*- Sorry you had a tough night. I can definitely sympathize with feeling like you have no idea what's wrong or why they're waking so much, I've been there with my LO for the past 4 months. I hope it is just teething and that she gets past it soon though.

*Michelle and Noelle* - That's so awesome and I'm so jealous! 

*anti* - Ugh, I'm sorry. I hope she went back to sleep soon after your post. As others have said, those long MOTN parties do seem to be developmental for whatever reason.

*MrsPear* - Aw, poor kiddo, we're dealing with a little of that here too though nowhere near that bad. I doubt it will affect your progress though, I'm sure it's just a temporary setback.


We continue to have shitty nights here for no reason whatsoever. She's not teething, she's not sick, she's not learning any big new skills, she knows how to self-settle, she nurses like a champ all day long and has plenty of solids before bed. It seems like she just enjoys being awake and screaming. 

She'd woken twice before I even went to bed at 9pm last night. At 11pm she went through her "crying for 5 minutes and then trying to settle for 10 minutes routine" for almost an hour before she finally got herself back to sleep, and I just let her be. It is agony hearing her cry but I know from experience that the moment I go in there she gets hysterical and it turns into a 2+ hour disaster. After that she woke at 3 for a feed and then was up for the day at 5am. I have no idea what to do with this child anymore. It feels like no matter what choice I make she is a screamy mess and neither of us are getting enough sleep.


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## x Michelle x

Don't be jealous, it will happen :) it's taken us a year lol! If Hayden wakes at 5, I feed him and put him back in his cot. I started a new rule that mummy doesn't get up pre 6:30


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## bananaz

x Michelle x said:


> Don't be jealous, it will happen :) it's taken us a year lol! If Hayden wakes at 5, I feed him and put him back in his cot. I started a new rule that mummy doesn't get up pre 6:30

Yeah I've been trying to keep her in her crib until 6am but it hasn't seemed to help. She'll play for a bit and then start crying and she just escalates until I get her :nope:


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## x Michelle x

bananaz said:


> x Michelle x said:
> 
> 
> Don't be jealous, it will happen :) it's taken us a year lol! If Hayden wakes at 5, I feed him and put him back in his cot. I started a new rule that mummy doesn't get up pre 6:30
> 
> Yeah I've been trying to keep her in her crib until 6am but it hasn't seemed to help. She'll play for a bit and then start crying and she just escalates until I get her :nope:Click to expand...

Hayden was exactly the same, then one day he just went back to sleep. Clearly he took the hint lol


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## bananaz

x Michelle x said:


> bananaz said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> x Michelle x said:
> 
> 
> Don't be jealous, it will happen :) it's taken us a year lol! If Hayden wakes at 5, I feed him and put him back in his cot. I started a new rule that mummy doesn't get up pre 6:30
> 
> Yeah I've been trying to keep her in her crib until 6am but it hasn't seemed to help. She'll play for a bit and then start crying and she just escalates until I get her :nope:Click to expand...
> 
> Hayden was exactly the same, then one day he just went back to sleep. Clearly he took the hint lolClick to expand...

Haha, yeah she used to go back to sleep but then she just stopped for some reason. Maybe I just need to stick with it.


A question to everyone - when do you ladies do your LO's last feed? I usually nurse LO at the end of her bedtime routine, so right before she goes to sleep. I still put her down awake 90% of the time but I'm wondering if nursing so close to bedtime is sabotaging my night weaning efforts somehow. Thoughts?


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## x Michelle x

We have dinner at 4:30, then bath @5:45 then back downstairs for supper (toast) fingers, hen when he looks grouchy we gave him his bottle upstairs, all snuggled in his sleeping bag, usually 6:30ish
Hayden is always put down awake but just after a feed. I also wondered if it was affecting his ability to get him back to sleep but I could never be bothered completely changing his routine around....


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## Boo44

We're having those awful early wakings again over here! 6.13am this morning. I knooooow he doesn't want to be awake then. Usually I can either leave him or pop dummy in once and we'll get 7.30 or even 8am! This morning the cough did away with that. At least I hope it's the cough.... 

Am trying to be consistent and not let him have his first nap too early. Fingers crossed we see some benefit once his cough goes 

Bananaz I feel for you. And sunnie. And anti. Am really pleased for Noelle and mrsPear and Michelle! The feeling tht this sleep thing is never ending is soooo soul destroying especially like now when I have pmt! Haha


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## x Michelle x

I know, I used to say to my OH all the time that I was 'broken' is amazing what a lack of sleep can do to a person!


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## Noelle610

bananaz said:


> x Michelle x said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bananaz said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> x Michelle x said:
> 
> 
> Don't be jealous, it will happen :) it's taken us a year lol! If Hayden wakes at 5, I feed him and put him back in his cot. I started a new rule that mummy doesn't get up pre 6:30
> 
> Yeah I've been trying to keep her in her crib until 6am but it hasn't seemed to help. She'll play for a bit and then start crying and she just escalates until I get her :nope:Click to expand...
> 
> Hayden was exactly the same, then one day he just went back to sleep. Clearly he took the hint lolClick to expand...
> 
> Haha, yeah she used to go back to sleep but then she just stopped for some reason. Maybe I just need to stick with it.
> 
> 
> A question to everyone - when do you ladies do your LO's last feed? I usually nurse LO at the end of her bedtime routine, so right before she goes to sleep. I still put her down awake 90% of the time but I'm wondering if nursing so close to bedtime is sabotaging my night weaning efforts somehow. Thoughts?Click to expand...

I give her a bottle prior to bedtime, but ready a story in between. I started doing it mostly because I had to hold her upright after a feed due to reflux, but I think it's really helped Charlotte not associate feeding with sleeping.


----------



## cmarie33

Hi ladies. Haven't posted since Saturday. Took over an hour for lo to sleep that night but she slept for about 7 hours before waking. Tonight she's been in bed nearly an hour and is still crying. She stops crying when I go in and soothe her after ten mins. I know she's tired. I just don't know why her sleeps
Changed :(


----------



## Randianne

Bananaz, thank you thank you thank you!!! The Cerave has worked so well. She didn't wake up once last night from the itching. Her outbreak is fading fast. That stuff is pricey, but very worth it. I really appreciate you suggesting it! Also, to answer your question, I do a feed before bed and I read her a story during it, then she goes down. If I don't she wakes up at 4-5 because she's hungry. 

Cmarie, have you heard of the Soothe and Glow Seahorse? My LO goes through stages of doing what you described, and it really helped.


----------



## jessicatunnel

Hi ladies! I haven't been in here for ages, and it seems there are s few new ladies in here. I haven't gone through and read much, just the last page, but I hope everyone's LO's sleep isn't too horrible. 

Just a little update on Lilly. She was doing really great for about four weeks. We would put her down at 630 or 7 and she would sleep until 730 or 8 with zero wake ups inbetween. Over the last three or so weeks she wakes up about four times from 630pm-1130pm. I can't figure out why. She's not hungry or cold or hot. We don't even need to do much to settle her. Just stand by her crib and sing twinkle twinkle little star. We literally only get "twinkle twinke little star, how I wonder what you are.." in before she's fast asleep again. We've tried leaving her when she wakes between those times but she goes ballistic. She usually sleeps 11-8 straight through now though. 

Anyone have an idea of how to stop the wake ups between 630-1130?


----------



## megangrohl

bananaz - we do solids supper at 4:30 then a bedtime bottle at 6. she goes to bed at 6:30 also being 100% awake and is asleep by 7 and sleeps through until 6:30am. 

HTH


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## daneuse27

bananz - I nurse mine right before bed, put her down sometimes asleep, and sometimes half awake and she usually sleeps through 10-11 hours, with a short feeding at the end, making it 12 hours total. I think what helps is that I play music that she associates with bedtime, and read a story and do a baby massage before bed. So rather than the nursing specifically reminding her its bedtime, she has these other things too.


----------



## bananaz

Randianne said:


> Bananaz, thank you thank you thank you!!! The Cerave has worked so well. She didn't wake up once last night from the itching. Her outbreak is fading fast. That stuff is pricey, but very worth it. I really appreciate you suggesting it! Also, to answer your question, I do a feed before bed and I read her a story during it, then she goes down. If I don't she wakes up at 4-5 because she's hungry.

Yay I'm so glad the CeraVe helped! And yes it's quite expensive but it's the only thing I've found that works, and I've tried a LOT of products.


----------



## NotNic

Hello sleep gurus! I hope you don't mind me joining, but just wondered if any of you had babies that like to practice their daytime milestones in their sleep? My son is constantly trying to pull himself to sitting up while being asleep. Before that it was crawling and rolling in his sleep. Thing is he cries while he does it and won't lay back down on his own. If we give him his dummy and lay him back down he will settle immediately. The whole time is eyes are shut and will only wake if he ends up wedged somewhere or he has been crying for awhile. The sitting up one has really messed with his nap times especially. Any tips? I'm up at least 2 every single night since Christmas. Before Christmas he at least gave us one sttn a week.


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## Noelle610

NotNic said:


> Hello sleep gurus! I hope you don't mind me joining, but just wondered if any of you had babies that like to practice their daytime milestones in their sleep? My son is constantly trying to pull himself to sitting up while being asleep. Before that it was crawling and rolling in his sleep. Thing is he cries while he does it and won't lay back down on his own. If we give him his dummy and lay him back down he will settle immediately. The whole time is eyes are shut and will only wake if he ends up wedged somewhere or he has been crying for awhile. The sitting up one has really messed with his nap times especially. Any tips? I'm up at least 2 every single night since Christmas. Before Christmas he at least gave us one sttn a week.

Hi there! Charlotte is exactly the same - milestones really mess with her sleep. No great advice here , except lots of practice during the day. We've just had to ride it out :(


----------



## Sunnie1984

Hello again everyone,

Anti - Don't worry, 4am is not the time to be thinking of anything, other than getting back to bed! :haha: It's also easier for me to say it when I'm not sitting in the middle of it. 

Michelle - 12 hours! Whew, that's great! Yup too many things to think about, and probably none of them are what is causing the wake ups. 

Noelle - YAY! At least Charlotte is catching up on some sleep! Even you got 7.5 hours, which must go a long way to getting you better rested. 

Mrspear - Poor Joni, constipation cannot be nice. I hope she takes enough water on board to get comfortable again. Is Joni bottle fed (i forget), if so I think you can substitute 1 oz water for prune or orange juice, and that way she might take it easier? 

I still have no idea what is going on, but I'm just trying to ignore everything for the moment and struggle on the best I can. 

Bananaz - Sorry you continue to have bad nights. I think you did a great job considering how difficult it must have been to hear her grumble and cry and try to settle. At least she did settle in the end. 

I don't think I have any useful advice, as you already know it, and have tried it all. I just hope that Elsie is working on something that you can't see, like talking etc, and that it is developmental in the end. You are out of the wonder week I take it? 

Don't worry, one day she will just resettle in her cot, just keep trying her, eventually she'll get it. :flower:

I give Seren a bottle right before bed. I just make sure to burp her a lot before she goes down, so she doesn't fall asleep on the bottle. 

I'm guessing here, but a couple of friends of mine found that their baby slept longer when they switched to formula, not really because they fed more etc, but because they stopped snuggling in to breast feed, and so the self settling became easier because they were not looking for the comfort and warmth. Perhaps Elsie is the same? She wants the cuddles she gets from nursing rather than the milk? Not saying you should stop feeding, but just might be an idea. 

Boo - 6:13am is normal over here! It probably is the cough, I hope it goes back to normal soon for you. 

cmarie - Glad your LO finally slept! She might be hitting wonder week 26 - we're having problems settling to bed, not getting Seren to sleep but the part afterwards where she wakes up screaming! 

Jessicatunnel - We are in the same boat, but Seren just wants a cuddle and back to sleep. No idea why! Sorry you are dealing with it, are you due a wonder week? 

Notnic - We do! Seren likes to crash around the cot at night practising her rolling and attempting to crawl! 



We are in a weird phase I think. Seren started the waking every couple of hours last night, about 30 minutes after she went to bed. The third time, I put her back down on her tummy (she's been sleeping on her back due to her cold).... and she slept right through to 6am. 

I was thrilled, sure I had unlocked the secret! :haha: I am a moron! 

Tonight she went down on her tummy and has woken once already, turned herself over and then started screaming. Picked her up, cuddled her and put her back down and she's gone back to sleep, but no idea how long for. 

I think we in WW26 now, I also wonder if she's trying to crawl in her sleep, she pretty much got up on her hands and knees before her bath tonight, she's never gotten her pelvis off the floor before. So maybe that's it. 

I think I'm just going to work on her daytime naps, and try to make sure she's not overtired for bed time. Or do what I did today which was get stuck in traffic and let her nap too long, so that she wasn't ready for bed until 7:15pm, despite her usual bedtime being 6:30pm. So now she's overtired and undertired at the same time! :dohh:

Aaaahhhh how I wish for the days when she was just a blob, and just slept right through with no frustration crying and teething and milestones etc. :haha:


----------



## cmarie33

Randianne said:


> Bananaz, thank you thank you thank you!!! The Cerave has worked so well. She didn't wake up once last night from the itching. Her outbreak is fading fast. That stuff is pricey, but very worth it. I really appreciate you suggesting it! Also, to answer your question, I do a feed before bed and I read her a story during it, then she goes down. If I don't she wakes up at 4-5 because she's hungry.
> 
> Cmarie, have you heard of the Soothe and Glow Seahorse? My LO goes through stages of doing what you described, and it really helped.

I wondered about getting something like that, but then wondered if its have an effect introducing it at 6months rather than birth? x


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## Noelle610

Sunnie, Dr. Weissbluth (of "Healthy Sleep Habits, Happy Child") thinks that formula fed babies tend to sleep through faster not because they don't eat as often, but because a baby often wakes and puts himself back to sleep in the time it takes the parent to get the bottle ready. He thinks parents learn early on that their babies can self-soothe if only given the time and this encourages STTN. Who know if it's actually true! The length my daughter slept never varied based on whether she had EBM or formula.


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## NotNic

Oh well. I guess there's company in misery! :D 

I combi-fed and my son sttn from 8 weeks until 4mth regression. I think because he was a baby that liked to cluster feed of a morning he was happy to go longer of a night. It was his natural pattern. At that stage he would normally still have a bf before bed and then we'd offer a bottle (normally EBF) as a dream feed. When we swapped to ff bottle I can't say we noticed any difference. I thought the difference was that a tired baby probably would stop drinking from the breast before they were truly full, whereas a bottle fed baby wouldn't have to work so hard, so would be completely full. :shrug:


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## Noelle610

jessicatunnel said:


> Hi ladies! I haven't been in here for ages, and it seems there are s few new ladies in here. I haven't gone through and read much, just the last page, but I hope everyone's LO's sleep isn't too horrible.
> 
> Just a little update on Lilly. She was doing really great for about four weeks. We would put her down at 630 or 7 and she would sleep until 730 or 8 with zero wake ups inbetween. Over the last three or so weeks she wakes up about four times from 630pm-1130pm. I can't figure out why. She's not hungry or cold or hot. We don't even need to do much to settle her. Just stand by her crib and sing twinkle twinkle little star. We literally only get "twinkle twinke little star, how I wonder what you are.." in before she's fast asleep again. We've tried leaving her when she wakes between those times but she goes ballistic. She usually sleeps 11-8 straight through now though.
> 
> Anyone have an idea of how to stop the wake ups between 630-1130?

Somehow I missed a few posts!

Usually those early evening wakings are from being overtired. How are Lilly's naps and how long is she awake between the last nap and bedtime?

Have you introduced anything new to her diet? I'm also thinking indigestion maybe. 

So glad you're still getting a nice long stretch!


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## Noelle610

megangrohl said:


> bananaz - we do solids supper at 4:30 then a bedtime bottle at 6. she goes to bed at 6:30 also being 100% awake and is asleep by 7 and sleeps through until 6:30am.
> 
> HTH

Yay!!


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## NotNic

After complaining about Finlay not sttn, last night he did! 8pm-6.15am!! Mummy was in such a good mood about it we were up, had a play with daddy, washed, dressed and downstairs with a bottle by 7.15am! Poor thing is not used to such a focused early start. By 8.30am he was doing the spaced out eyes and he's now had just over an hours nap and still going, which is the most we've had in one go this week. He turns 38 weeks today. Do you think he's being a textbook wonder week baby? :haha:


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## daneuse27

Did my girl just wake herself up crawling? 

She doesn't crawl really when awake, but tries to. She manages to move forward and backward but it isn't really crawling its hard to explain. She woke up last night, and when I went to the crib, she was in the crawling position and further up the crib than where I'd placed her. I lay her back down and gave her a paci and she was sleeping within seconds!

Weird.


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## NotNic

Probably! My son does this sooo much. X


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## Noelle610

I post on another forum and I just got into with a woman SLEEP TRAINING HER 2 MONTH OLD. As you ladies know, I'm not much for internet drama nor am I against sleep training (at all!), but come. On.


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## anti

My health visitor seems to think that if I give ashlynn water at night she will stop waking and sttn. I'm not so convinced. Don't know what to do... So looking forward to a full night sleep in a few years time.


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## AngelUK

LOL anti but also aww. Actually I think nightweaning might help. We started with Dominic in November. Dropped the 4am feed by replacing it with water. It took a good month if not more for him not to wake for it any more but when he did we got lovely 4 to 5 hour stretches from him before he woke for the day. 
He still got his midnight bottle till about 10 days ago when he dropped that by himself! :shock: Mind you, he is teething again and for the first time he seems be affected by it. So last night he woke for the first time in 10 days. I gave him half a carton and half water. So in all it was 200ml but 100 water and 100 milk. I always have the bottles with the water and the cartons ready when OH and I go to sleep and he and I agreed that should Dominic cry he would get that and we would gradually reduce the milk and up the water ratio. Still I am hoping his waking last night was a fluke and due to teething and not that he no longer wants to sttn. Good luck :)


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## L-C

I gave my DS water and he stopped and three nights later slept through and has done ever since!


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## anti

Maybe I should try the water bit. Only thing that worries me is she never finished her bedtime bottle, so when she wakes I feel like I need to give her milk coz she only drinks like 3oz of her bedtime bottle. Maybe if I gave water during the night she might start finishing her bedtime bottle before bed.


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## AngelUK

Sebastian is like that too and rarely finishes his bed time bottle either. So we wait till he is really deeply asleep, (ca 10 to 15 mins) and give it to him as a dreamfeed. He always goes back to sleep without really waking. Mind you, he never was a difficult sleeper. xxx


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## anti

Thanks angel. Might try that tonight as its the weekend an my OH will be here and might be able to help me out, not that he has before!! She fought her nap so bad yesterday I had to take her out in the buggy to sleep and I'm getting tired of all this! People seem to think all babies this age should be sleeping through, but with the amount of us on here just proves a lot of babies aren't doing that! To be fair, after she had 5oz last night at half 11 she slept till 5am.


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## Noelle610

Good luck anti! If your LO is well established with solids, she should be fine to go all night at 9 months.


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## bananaz

*NotNic* - OMG, that's amazing! Hope he keeps it up for you.

*Noelle* - Ugh, I don't think you can even call it sleep training with such a little baby, it's just letting them cry. They're not learning anything :(

*anti* - Good luck with the water trick, I hope it works for you! I kinda wish my LO took a bottle so I could use that night weaning method since gradually reducing the length of her feeds hasn't worked.


Well the night before last was okay with only one waking for food at 2:30am and then up for the day at 5:30am, but last night was worse than ever. Her first waking was 45 minutes after I put her down, and then she was up every 2.5 hours for the rest of the night until she decided she was done sleeping at 5am. 

I really don't understand what is waking her so much, but the plan is to night wean her this weekend. She only has one short feed left so I'm just going to do it cold turkey. If nothing else this will allow me to respond to her consistently at night which I'm hoping will make her sleep a little more consistent. I'm also wondering if I need to do something else after I nurse her before putting her in her crib at bedtime, although I'm hesitant to mess with the routine because that's the only part of her sleep schedule that works right now.


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## Boo44

Bananaz is it this weekend your mum is coming to help you go cold turkey with the night feeds? Good luck xx


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## Noelle610

Good luck Bananaz! Keep us posted on the progress.


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## bananaz

Boo44 said:


> Bananaz is it this weekend your mum is coming to help you go cold turkey with the night feeds? Good luck xx

Yep she's coming over this evening. Unfortunately she can only stay for two nights, but hopefully we'll be able to make some progress during that time.


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## Noelle610

bananaz said:


> Boo44 said:
> 
> 
> Bananaz is it this weekend your mum is coming to help you go cold turkey with the night feeds? Good luck xx
> 
> Yep she's coming over this evening. Unfortunately she can only stay for two nights, but hopefully we'll be able to make some progress during that time.Click to expand...

I think the first 2 or 3 nights are the hardest when you make a change like this, so it will be good to have the support.


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## Sunnie1984

Sorry it's chaos over here so not had chance to update! 

Sorry to not comment on everyone's progress but :hugs: to those still suffering and :happydance: to those getting some well deserved sleep. 

Bananaz - good luck, I think you'll make great progress over two nights, enough for you to carry on by yourself. Just be ready for a regression when it happens, and push through. I know it will really help Elsie to get some solid sleep. :flower:

We're good here. STTN for 12 hours the past three nights. Baby whisperer is a god! We started lengthening her awake time in the morning, and after first nap, and naps are randomly getting a bit longer. Slow progress but all good. 

Cutting her last nap has also helped, so no sleeping after 4:15pm. Bed at 6:30pm. 

Now we are packing for a last minute trip to Australia..... which is going to ruin everything :dohh: 14 hour flight, 7 hour time difference, for 9 days..... gah, but you only get to live once, so I'll suck it up and get on with it! 

x


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## anti

Ashlynn wouldn't take her dream feed... Not sure if I should still try night weaning with water


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## NotNic

Thanks bananaz. I crack and whine to you guys, and then he shows me up and has now slept through two nights running! :haha: I'm not sure what happened, but he just seems sleepier right now. Today he had two naps totalling almost 3hrs and he could barely keep his eyes open for teeth brushing! I'm definitely not complaining but Im scared that it won't last. We've been doing lots of floor work this week, so maybe I'm wearing him out. :shrug: I feel a bit lame though complaining, but I promise it was getting a real struggle not having at least one reasonable sleep a week. xx


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## anti

She woke at half nine screaming last night and I couldn't settle her. She ended up being sick everywhere so after changing everything she went back to sleep from 11-5 then 6-8:30. Not too bad considering she was poorly


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## Noelle610

Not bad at all anti. Hope she feels better.

We had kind of a rough night. Charlotte woke up three times screaming bloody murder. I have no idea what was wrong. Her pediatrician told us this is the age when nightmares really start, so perhaps that was it?


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## daneuse27

Oh no, I hope Charlottes sleep gets back on track soon. Did it take long to get her back to sleep each time?


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## Noelle610

daneuse27 said:


> Oh no, I hope Charlottes sleep gets back on track soon. Did it take long to get her back to sleep each time?

Thanks! I hope so too. We have the off night here and there, but she does tend to go back to sleeping well (touch wood). She went back to sleep pretty quickly each time and for that I am grateful!

I feel really tired today. I'm not even so sure why, because I'm used to surviving on much less sleep than this.


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## bananaz

*Sunnie* - Wow, congrats, it sounds like you're making amazing progress! I hope your trip goes smoothly.

*anti* - Aw, poor baby. I'm glad she still had a decent stretch though. 

*Noelle* - Sorry Charlotte had a rough night :( I'm not surprised you're tired; when your body is used to getting solid sleep being woken up three times by a screaming baby is probably way more disruptive than when you're used to it.


Last night went pretty well. She had another weird half-awake crying episode 45 minutes after I put her to bed but it lasted maybe 2 minutes before she fell back asleep (literally - she had been sitting up and then she just kinda flopped over into the crib). 

After that she didn't wake up until 3am, which is really good for her these days. My mom gave her 10 minutes to see if she would go back to sleep on her own and it actually seemed like she did for a while, but of course nothing is ever that easy! It ended up taking about an hour and a half of my mom soothing her and then her crying and needing to be soothed again before she finally went to sleep. I had set 5am as the earliest I would nurse her so when she woke at 5:30 she had a feeding and I managed to get her to go back to sleep until 7am.

So I would call the night a success, although I know from experience that it's going to be at least 3-4 nights before her body gets the message that 2am is no longer snack time. Then again maybe she'll just sleep through tonight, right? :rolleyes:


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## socitycourty

MOTN party for us at 3:00 a.m. Got up to get her bottle, cuddled her up and she drained it...and was still WIDE AWAKE.

I wanted to cry I was so tired. She just didn't want to go back to sleep. Finally went back down around 4:15 a.m., I finally fell asleep just to be woken up by my husband's alarm for work.

She was up for the day at 7 a.m.


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## Noelle610

Bananaz, that sounds like great success! Elsie is smart... She'll get it, maybe sooner than you think.

Socity, I'm sorry! Those MOTN parties are truly crushing.


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## Boo44

Noelle610 said:


> Not bad at all anti. Hope she feels better.
> 
> We had kind of a rough night. Charlotte woke up three times screaming bloody murder. I have no idea what was wrong. Her pediatrician told us this is the age when nightmares really start, so perhaps that was it?

We had a night like this last night completely out of the blue except I think he woke 5 times. This is on the back of a few sttn's. it was awful I have no idea why it happened. And I don't think he's ever woken so much since he was tiny! Yesterday he randomly had a high temp and red cheeks and drool ++ but no more teeth this morning...

So now I'm freaking out that it's the start of a new pattern or something :( Pleeeease don't let it be an 8 month regression :(


----------



## Noelle610

Boo44 said:


> Noelle610 said:
> 
> 
> Not bad at all anti. Hope she feels better.
> 
> We had kind of a rough night. Charlotte woke up three times screaming bloody murder. I have no idea what was wrong. Her pediatrician told us this is the age when nightmares really start, so perhaps that was it?
> 
> We had a night like this last night completely out of the blue except I think he woke 5 times. This is on the back of a few sttn's. it was awful I have no idea why it happened. And I don't think he's ever woken so much since he was tiny! Yesterday he randomly had a high temp and red cheeks and drool ++ but no more teeth this morning...
> 
> So now I'm freaking out that it's the start of a new pattern or something :( Pleeeease don't let it be an 8 month regression :(Click to expand...

Aww poor baby and poor mama! I always have that fear, too... Charlotte will do something crazy, but is usually back to STTN or one waking the next night. 

It does sound like teething in your situation. When the tooth comes through, he will feel so much better. Does Jack have any teeth yet? I felt like Charlotte was teething forever before the first one and then the second one popped through with little drama!


----------



## Boo44

Yes he's got his front bottom two so far. He's been ok today then just now feels warm again and isn't bothered about much of his bottle. I wonder if it is a tooth...

Out of interest, what would you do in this situation : he has 2 naps a day now around 10-11 and then 3.30-4.30 ish. He often has a mini power nap in between if we're out in the car. The half 3 nap comes after his afternoon bottle, if I put him down right after he'll sleep lovely for an hour. The past 2 days we've been out and aiming to come home for his 3pm bottle. Thing is he falls asleep on the journey (usually short!) and so I've waken him up, given his bottle and put him down. Should I just let him sleep thn and give bottle when he wakes up? Yesterday he only had 30 mins at this nap prob because he'd had a short nap earlier and of course I'm blaming that completely on him having a bad night!!!

Am struggling with being flexible re naps at the moment. I'm feeling that if I have such a rigid schedule I'm going to cause myself worry every time we can't stick to it! I am so neurotic sometimes lol


----------



## bananaz

Boo44 said:


> We had a night like this last night completely out of the blue except I think he woke 5 times. This is on the back of a few sttn's. it was awful I have no idea why it happened. And I don't think he's ever woken so much since he was tiny! Yesterday he randomly had a high temp and red cheeks and drool ++ but no more teeth this morning...
> 
> So now I'm freaking out that it's the start of a new pattern or something :( Pleeeease don't let it be an 8 month regression :(

Poor guy, I hope it's just a tooth and he feels better soon!


Last night was so-so for us. LO had two wakings, the first at midnight that took a half hour for her to get back to sleep, and the second at 2am which used to be her feeding time. My mom and I had decided that she would use my "give her 10 minutes to settle herself" rule but Elsie would cry for a couple of minutes, then fall back asleep for a few minutes, and then wake and start fussing again. After almost an hour of this I couldn't take it anymore so I made my mom go in there and she finally got LO to go to sleep and stay asleep. Then Elsie decided to get up for the day at 5:45am :coffee:

The good news is that we've gone two nights with no feedings before 5:30am! I'm on my own again tonight though, so we'll see how that goes...


----------



## bananaz

Boo44 said:


> Yes he's got his front bottom two so far. He's been ok today then just now feels warm again and isn't bothered about much of his bottle. I wonder if it is a tooth...
> 
> Out of interest, what would you do in this situation : he has 2 naps a day now around 10-11 and then 3.30-4.30 ish. He often has a mini power nap in between if we're out in the car. The half 3 nap comes after his afternoon bottle, if I put him down right after he'll sleep lovely for an hour. The past 2 days we've been out and aiming to come home for his 3pm bottle. Thing is he falls asleep on the journey (usually short!) and so I've waken him up, given his bottle and put him down. Should I just let him sleep thn and give bottle when he wakes up? Yesterday he only had 30 mins at this nap prob because he'd had a short nap earlier and of course I'm blaming that completely on him having a bad night!!!
> 
> Am struggling with being flexible re naps at the moment. I'm feeling that if I have such a rigid schedule I'm going to cause myself worry every time we can't stick to it! I am so neurotic sometimes lol

I would just let him sleep. It's a bummer to have to wait out a car nap but at least with my LO it's better if I do because it's next to impossible to get her back to sleep afterward. If I have a timing situation like the one you're describing I usually do my best to keep her awake in the car, though that doesn't always work.


----------



## Boo44

Yes. Ahh I'm pleased I'm not the only one trying to time things around naps! It's so hard not to come across neurotic when people ask me to do things and I have to work out timings!

I really don't know what is up with me today, think its because I was out with the girls last night so am really tired. But this bad night has got me feeling so upset and nervous in case it continues. I can't be normal!


----------



## bananaz

Boo44 said:


> Yes. Ahh I'm pleased I'm not the only one trying to time things around naps! It's so hard not to come across neurotic when people ask me to do things and I have to work out timings!
> 
> I really don't know what is up with me today, think its because I was out with the girls last night so am really tired. But this bad night has got me feeling so upset and nervous in case it continues. I can't be normal!


Haha, I time everything around naps. I don't know how else I'd survive! She needs her sleep and I need my downtime.


----------



## L-C

bananaz that sounds like a promising couple of nights. I really want to do it next week when DH is off for a week, but my LO isn't eating much solids, so kind of feel that she needs one night feed. Def not three though.

Boo44, I'd do the same. I have two, my eldest sleeps between 1-3 pm, and the LO between 10-12 am and 2-3 pm, so the whole days is tied up with naps. With my eldest I was really strict and didn't budge, but as long as LO has one nap in her bed the other can be in the car or pushchair. I def leave in the car if she falls asleep for the same reasons. My DS got to the point where he could be transferred in, after a year when he was down to one nap.

In my head I rationalise it as, the whole day is in preparation for bedtime and as long as she has slept sufficiently to make it to bedtime without getting too tired, I've suceeded. If that makes sense. Not that I know what I'm talking about, this just works for me xx


----------



## L-C

My in-laws really don't understand why I just can't drop things and pop over ha ha It's a short period of time and so important to get right......

I def need my downtime too...... I can now plonk my DS in front of the tv (not ideal but just for short periods) to get a few things done.


----------



## Boo44

Thanks L-C that does make sense to me. I might start thinking about him having his morning nap out and about as long as I'm home for the pm one. Will just have to work out what to do about him falling asleep on the way home! May have to change bottle times. Hmm is so complicated!

Bananaz I forgot to say that consecutive nights with no feeds before 5am is fabulous progress! Elsie will get there in no time xx


----------



## Boo44

Would you leave in the car outside on the drive and pop in and out checking on them? Or aim to transfer inside still in the car seat? He's 21lb and a big boy lol


----------



## L-C

That sounds like a plan!


----------



## Aimee1003

Bananaz- congrats!!! Wow

We are still waking 2-3 times a night but each wakeup is 20-30 min instead of 1-2 hrs so I am getting 6-7 hrs of sleep. ok I guess. He is getting so big and so active during the day that he just doesn't stay still long enough to cuddle. His nighttime wake ups are really the only time I get in good cuddles. I am realizing that he will not be a baby much longer so now I am resigned to wake ups and I'm going to enjoy the cuddles while I can still get them!!! 
So I have decided not to do any night time weaning or any additional sleep training. I am just going to follow his lead. Let me rephrase that, as long as I'm getting in at least 6 hours of sleep I will follow his lead.


----------



## daneuse27

Ugh whats going on here :(

I had my baby girl sleeping 10-12 hours per night. She's 6 months old today and for the past couple nights, she only sleeps 8 hours and then wakes up super energetic and hyper. I feed her, and she's nowhere near going back to sleep, so I give her some solids, nurse her again, put her down and then she's awake 15 mins later hyper and energetic again! :dohh: Why? Growth spurt??


----------



## L-C

Boo44 I leave my LO outside and check loads, don't really like doing it but she does get a better snooze


----------



## mellyboo

I'd take 8 hours anyday;)


----------



## Noelle610

Boo, I totally time my day around naps. I tell myself it's not forever and just go with it. Sleep is important! Soon enough they will be down to one nap and we'll be able to get out more :)

Bananaz, sounds like much success with the night weaning. Long may it continue. Be strong!

Daneuse, that sounds developmental to me. I bet she goes back to sleep normally soon enough.


----------



## MrsPear

Just checking in- quick update- Joni's sleep is somewhere in the middle of when it was really bad and the few nights we got 5 hours or so. There have been no more 6 hour stretches (worst luck!) but she has done 3 hours or so on the majority of nights, and last night she did 1.5 hours, 1.5 hours, 3 hours, 2 hours, 1 hour, 1 hour in my arms (the rest was in the cot). So as you can see, not perfect but I'll take it for now! 

I just went up to settle her (she has been asleep for 2 hours) and for first time ever, put her on her front. Don't know if this is okay as she can't roll over yet (lazy baby) and she went straight to sleep. She does sometimes sleep on her side these days too.

This morning she was moaning for about 10 minutes b so I went downstairs and she was upside down in the cot- not on her front but with her head at the bottom and her feet at the top. Considering she is not in any way mobile and has never even bothered to roll, I was very impressed!


----------



## MrsPear

Bananaz- sounds like you are making some progress! I was hesitant to change Joni's bedtime routine too because it was the only part of the night that really worked for her, but I thought I should too when I started shh-patting, and fingers crossed she has responded well- I think you're right, it's better to be consistent through the whole night. Also, Joni has done that thing a couple of times where she fusses over the course of an hour but clearly falls asleep in between moans. Not sure what it's caused by but I wait as long as I can bear and then go in too. It's not like you can sleep whilst it's going on.

Daneuse- Yes I reckon it is developmental. 8 hours is still a good stretch but if she wakes up ready for the day that has got to be frustrating particularly if it's really early.

Boo- I would be a bit paranoid about leaving Joni outside (I mean I'm just seeing it from my perspective because I don't have a garden or a car, so it would literally be on the pavement haha), but when she's asleep in the pushchair, I do leave her in there and sit reading a book on the bottom of the steps up to my house- trying to look as though it's what I do all the time! It's so annoying isn't it when naps don't coincide precisely with the tasks you had in mind. I admit I am another one who obsesses over naps although OH thinks it's silly as Joni just does what she wants anyway and I daresay he's right.
 
Sunnie- Well done on the STTNs, and fingers crossed for your trip. Where are you travelling from? I have had mixed success with trips to different places, but I think where I had poor success it was due to other factors such as teething etc, not the change in location.

anti- your poor LO. Was it just a one off sickness session? Seems like the night was not TOO bad regardless, but it's hard to sleep wondering if there's going to be more sick!

Have I missed some people? I'm trying to do ten things at once here so I'm sorry if I missed you out, I'll have another check. xx


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## daneuse27

Hope Jonis sleep only gets better! Is it possible learning this new skill is causing some of the wake ups? My aughter has done this twice with crawling.


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## MrsPear

daneuse27 said:


> Hope Jonis sleep only gets better! Is it possible learning this new skill is causing some of the wake ups? My aughter has done this twice with crawling.

Honestly, I just give up trying to 'work it out'! Could be developmental, the fact she has a bit of a runny nose, maybe she is teething, she seems a bit constipated... I give up! :flower: I hope you get a better lie in tomorrow.


----------



## bananaz

MrsPear said:


> Just checking in- quick update- Joni's sleep is somewhere in the middle of when it was really bad and the few nights we got 5 hours or so. There have been no more 6 hour stretches (worst luck!) but she has done 3 hours or so on the majority of nights, and last night she did 1.5 hours, 1.5 hours, 3 hours, 2 hours, 1 hour, 1 hour in my arms (the rest was in the cot). So as you can see, not perfect but I'll take it for now!
> 
> I just went up to settle her (she has been asleep for 2 hours) and for first time ever, put her on her front. Don't know if this is okay as she can't roll over yet (lazy baby) and she went straight to sleep. She does sometimes sleep on her side these days too.
> 
> This morning she was moaning for about 10 minutes b so I went downstairs and she was upside down in the cot- not on her front but with her head at the bottom and her feet at the top. Considering she is not in any way mobile and has never even bothered to roll, I was very impressed!

I hope the stomach sleeping works well for her! At 7 months I'm sure she's strong and coordinated enough to be on her belly, even if she's not rolling yet.


----------



## socitycourty

My Lo stood unassisted last night so I'm hoping that explained some of the sleep problems this past week. I tried upping her bottles from 5 to 6 oz and also gave her a bowl of cereal later on in the night last night to see if I could get a better sleep. She went longer it seemed like but was pretty much up for the day really early. who knows? I guess if I stop stressing about it i might feel better in a way


----------



## anti

So looks like ashlynn just had a once off with the throwing up episode but the next night she was unsettled again at the same time... Turns out it was the vitamin drops I was putting in her milk at night time. I stopped last night and she went down at 8. Woke at 11:30 to be resettled for 10 mins then woke at 3:30. Tried water but she just screamed blue murder, gave her a bottle and she slept till 7. Then I changed her and gave her a bottle out her in my bed and she slept till 9:15!!! Nice to catch up on some sleep. She obviously still needs that bottle in the night so I'll wait a few weeks before trying the water again. 

Hope you're all getting some rest!


----------



## anti

Mrs pear we've ha the same here. Ashlynn doesn't roll but I've gone into her a few times when she's moaning and she's upside down or something, considering she's not mobile, I was also surprised. I've got those airwrap bumpers now coz she kept getting her feet out the bars!


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## Sunnie1984

Gah! 

We're in Australia and its 1am. 

Seren went to bed at 11pm (we're trying to only move her bedtime to 2 hours earlier than at home, hopefully easier to settle back into our time zone). 

She's woken up 4 times already in three hours. 

She only got 6 hours very broken sleep in her usual sleep window last night, usually gets 12. 

Only had 2 bottles instead of 4 today, and spat lots of it out. 

Also teething! So last time she woke wouldn't settle until given teething gel (stupid Git that I am forgot to pack the anbesol!). 

Make that 5 times. Just managed to dream feed - she refused food the last four wake ups. She took 2.5 ounces. Stil a long way from the 18 she's missing but she now seems a little more settled and gone down without the dummy. 

Majorly stressed here as trying to keep her quiet so DH can sleep as he's working tomorrow. 

I don't think it would be so bad if she'd slept better last night. 

Hmmm awake again


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## Sunnie1984

So another dream feed, 2-3 ounces and back down.... 

And now I can't sleep despite only getting 2 hours in the last 36. 

Yawn timezones are evil!


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## bananaz

*anti* - Glad you figured out what the issue was and you had a better night!

*Sunnie* - Ughh I'm sure Australia is awesome but I do not envy trying to figure out such a big time change with a baby! I think I might chicken out and just stay home, haha. Anyway, I hope today is better for you and she starts eating properly.

*socitycourty* - Wow, standing on her own already! You're in trouble, mama! 


We had a better night last night. She stirred loudly for a couple minutes around midnight but conked out again until 3am when she did the crying/resettling/crying routine for about 45 minutes and then finally got back to sleep on her own. This was a big improvement over the past couple nights where she did it for over an hour and needed help getting back to sleep, so yay! Then she slept in until 5:45am. 

And yes... 5:45 now counts as sleeping in :( In the past two weeks she's only slept past 6am three times, and most days she's been up before 5:30am. I'm scared this is a permanent change!


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## daneuse27

bannaz - I hope she starts sleeping later. im going through annoying early-morning wake ups myself..

Sunnie - wow! that does sound tough, I took my daughter to California which is a 3 hour difference for me and that was hard enough. Couldnt imagine doing 20 +, but im sure youll get there! just be consistent. so nice of you to ensure your hubby gets good rest, its not easy when you arent well rested yourself.

My daughter is still waking up after 8 hours instead of 10-12. :( after a nurse, she tends to go back to sleep. she often wakes up, rolls on her tummy and then begins to (try) crawling .. so this is developmental, right? how long will it last? I miss my nice peaceful morning 'me' time.. lol


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## bananaz

*daneuse* - That definitely sounds like it could be developmental, but it's hard to say how long it will last. I think it really depends on the baby. When is her bedtime? 8 hours is still a great stretch though!

Last night was amazing! She went to bed right before 7pm and then I didn't hear a peep from her until almost 4:30am! I let her do her intermittent fussing routine for about 15 minutes but I was scared that if I didn't get her back to sleep before 5am she would decide to be up for the day so... I fed her :blush: I know, bad mama. Hopefully one 4:45am feeding won't ruin everything.


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## Noelle610

Bananaz, amazing! One feeding won't ruin it :)


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## MrsPear

bananaz said:


> *daneuse* - That definitely sounds like it could be developmental, but it's hard to say how long it will last. I think it really depends on the baby. When is her bedtime? 8 hours is still a great stretch though!
> 
> Last night was amazing! She went to bed right before 7pm and then I didn't hear a peep from her until almost 4:30am! I let her do her intermittent fussing routine for about 15 minutes but I was scared that if I didn't get her back to sleep before 5am she would decide to be up for the day so... I fed her :blush: I know, bad mama. Hopefully one 4:45am feeding won't ruin everything.

Bananaz I give myself what I call the "cut off" point, normally around 5am, where I will cuddle her for the rest of the 'night' if she wakes but still seems sleepy because otherwise she'll be up for the day. Before that I'll get her back in the cot, after that, I'll just hold her for an hour or two. It's all very well night weaning (or not cuddling in my case) but I think at that time of morning they aren't so tired so they'd rather just fight it and get up than accept it and go back down! x


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## Boo44

Yay bananaz!!! So (cautiously) excited for you :) :)

So funny as we have a cut off time too! Usually for his dummy. As in if he wakes before 6 then I leave him to settle. After 6 I may go give him dummy depending on how he sounds. Otherwise I worry he'll wake for the day.


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## daneuse27

Im awake at 5am, because she's still waking every 2-3 hours through the night, and up for the day after an 8 or 9 hour sleep. :( When she wakes, its easy to put her back to sleep, all I have to do is give her the dummy. But still I cant always go back to sleep and this is starting to get me down, especially since shes only sleeping 9 hours at the most at night now compared to the 10 -12 from before. Shes well tempered and happy through the day but I miss the little chunk of me time I used to have in the mornings before shed wake for the day. This has been going on nearly a week now.. wonder how much longer itll last..


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## L-C

daneuse I really am no expert and we have our sleep issues here. But with my son at 5.5 months, we had similar and it was the dummy causing the problems, we took it away and had three nights of rocking and cuddling but he's now nearly three and has always slept through since. I had to rub his tummy and shhh him to sleep in his cot and after a week I could just plonk him in and he'd do the rest..... might apply to your LO not sure?


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## mellyboo

I don't no what to do anymore she just won't go to sleep no matter what I do :(


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## daneuse27

L-C said:


> daneuse I really am no expert and we have our sleep issues here. But with my son at 5.5 months, we had similar and it was the dummy causing the problems, we took it away and had three nights of rocking and cuddling but he's now nearly three and has always slept through since. I had to rub his tummy and shhh him to sleep in his cot and after a week I could just plonk him in and he'd do the rest..... might apply to your LO not sure?

It could.. but Im not sure its the dummy. Shes not attached to it at all and she doesnt go to sleep with it at night. Th only times I ever offer it to her are when she wakes up in her crib at night; I give it to her to go back to sleep. Other than that, shes not interested in the dummy.. during the day, she never has it..


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## Noelle610

mellyboo said:


> I don't no what to do anymore she just won't go to sleep no matter what I do :(

Oh no! Tell us more, how does she nap during the day? What is her routine? What time is bedtime?


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## Noelle610

We just got back from Charlotte's 9 month appointment and I thought of you girls!

I didn't even mention sleep, but the Doctor mentioned during his "9 month speech" (he has one for every age - my friends all see the same pediatrician and we joke about it) that it's super common for babies who used to sleep well to begin waking again at this age. He said it's a combination of separation anxiety, developmental milestones and the beginning of dreaming. 

Just wanted to share that in case anyone is struggling. My doc is super old-school, so if he recognizes the 9 month sleep regression there's certainly something to it!


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## bananaz

daneuse27 said:


> It could.. but Im not sure its the dummy. Shes not attached to it at all and she doesnt go to sleep with it at night. Th only times I ever offer it to her are when she wakes up in her crib at night; I give it to her to go back to sleep. Other than that, shes not interested in the dummy.. during the day, she never has it..

If you're giving it to her to get her to go back to sleep she could definitely have a sucking-to-sleep association at night, even if she's not dependent on the dummy during the day. You might try using other methods to get her back to sleep and see if that helps.


----------



## bananaz

Noelle610 said:


> We just got back from Charlotte's 9 month appointment and I thought of you girls!
> 
> I didn't even mention sleep, but the Doctor mentioned during his "9 month speech" (he has one for every age - my friends all see the same pediatrician and we joke about it) that it's super common for babies who used to sleep well to begin waking again at this age. He said it's a combination of separation anxiety, developmental milestones and the beginning of dreaming.
> 
> Just wanted to share that in case anyone is struggling. My doc is super old-school, so if he recognizes the 9 month sleep regression there's certainly something to it!

What about babies who have been sleeping like crap for months? Can they get a free pass on this one? :haha:


----------



## Noelle610

bananaz said:


> Noelle610 said:
> 
> 
> We just got back from Charlotte's 9 month appointment and I thought of you girls!
> 
> I didn't even mention sleep, but the Doctor mentioned during his "9 month speech" (he has one for every age - my friends all see the same pediatrician and we joke about it) that it's super common for babies who used to sleep well to begin waking again at this age. He said it's a combination of separation anxiety, developmental milestones and the beginning of dreaming.
> 
> Just wanted to share that in case anyone is struggling. My doc is super old-school, so if he recognizes the 9 month sleep regression there's certainly something to it!
> 
> What about babies who have been sleeping like crap for months? Can they get a free pass on this one? :haha:Click to expand...

I wish there was a resort you could take your poorly sleeping baby to... Leave it with a night nurse for a few nights or even a week so that poor tired parents could get some rest! :rofl:


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## L-C

Book me into that resort please, just for one night.....

My DS wasn't attached to his either daneuse, but it made a huge difference, might just be worth a go.

My DD has been napping miles better for almost two weeks, but seems to have gone back to her old ways yesterday and today.... do you think it could be teeth?

She used to take ages to go off then only sleep for half an hour, then stated doing 1 - 1.5 hours am and pm. I'm gutted.....


----------



## bananaz

Noelle610 said:


> I wish there was a resort you could take your poorly sleeping baby to... Leave it with a night nurse for a few nights or even a week so that poor tired parents could get some rest! :rofl:


Haha, that would be awesome, but knowing me I wouldn't be able to sleep and I'd end up creeping to "help" the nurse :dohh:


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## bananaz

*L-C* - It could definitely be teeth. When my LO is teething her naps seem to fall apart. At least it's temporary, right?


Last night was a mix. The good part was that she slept from 6:45pm to 3am, which is an awesome stretch for her. Unfortunately she was then up for almost 2 hours :nope: Both of her top teeth are cutting right now I gave her some ibuprofen and I think that helped, but in the end I had to just leave the room because every time I thought she was finally drifting off she would stir and then see me and want me to pick her up. After that she fussed for about 10 minutes and was out.

I guess me trying to pat her to sleep must be like having a big cheeseburger with fries next to your bed - even if you're not hungry you're still going to want some and get distracted :rolleyes:


----------



## socitycourty

i am just having such a horrible time. feeling like a really bad mom and bad person too,TBH.

Hadley is just so fussy and clingy. She's fed, eats 3 meals a day, has a million toys. But all she does now is crawl around after me crying, I was loading the car the other day, she was here in the house behind her gate, she cried so hard she was almost vomiting when I came back-after 3 minutes or less.

The past 2 days she has refused naps in the day, I can't put her down yet she won't fall asleep, she finally fell asleep and then woke up hysterically as I laid her down.

Yesterday was the same, no naps all day, I was alone with her and my niece all day, got home, found out we have to buy a new car for my DH, which we don't have money for. I was trying to eat dinner, she knocked it on the floor, which then meant it was covered in fuzz and mashed up puffs, so I was like just fuck it all, I don't need to eat, whatever. I just got sooooo mad and then told my husband you have to watch her so I can go take a bath. Well as soon as I shut the water off I could hear her screaming. Not just crying but screaming.

He was changing her diaper. That's all that was wrong.

I just got out and got dressed again and went out to get her.

She wanted me to hold her but kept pulling my hair, pinching me etc and stuck her fingers up my nose.

i finally yelled at her, god damn just leave me alone, can't you just leave me alone for 5 minutes.

she just looked at me and then fell asleep. I felt horrible but I'm just losing it. How could I know that having a baby would make me nuts?

I've always had anxiety attacks, depression etc. but this is really bad.

I know that one factor of it is the sleep, I don't get restful sleep and never get to lay down on my own.

I have a bad tooth which needs a root canal and it HURTS. 

I don't have time to eat regularly and when I do eat it's not healthy. I have no sex drive, no interest in going out or doing anything, not that I would have time anyway. All I used to do was read in my free time, 2-3 books a week. Now a book takes me over a week at least.


I'm totally losing it over here and I feel awful. I feel like I should give my LO to someone who will be nice to her all the time. Not a grumpy miserable bitch like me.


----------



## L-C

socity..... can anyone help you for an hour or so here and there so you can't hear the screaming?? I feel a lot like you hun, it's the sleep deprivation it magnifies everything! The fact that you recognise how you feel is awesome.....we all lose it at times but you are able to stop and realise when it gets out of control.

I've been sneaking off to the gym, I'm so tired by the end of the day I feel like I've been run over but a bit of me time puts everything into perspective xx


----------



## mrsbeano

socitycourty said:


> i am just having such a horrible time. feeling like a really bad mom and bad person too,TBH.
> 
> Hadley is just so fussy and clingy. She's fed, eats 3 meals a day, has a million toys. But all she does now is crawl around after me crying, I was loading the car the other day, she was here in the house behind her gate, she cried so hard she was almost vomiting when I came back-after 3 minutes or less.
> 
> The past 2 days she has refused naps in the day, I can't put her down yet she won't fall asleep, she finally fell asleep and then woke up hysterically as I laid her down.
> 
> Yesterday was the same, no naps all day, I was alone with her and my niece all day, got home, found out we have to buy a new car for my DH, which we don't have money for. I was trying to eat dinner, she knocked it on the floor, which then meant it was covered in fuzz and mashed up puffs, so I was like just fuck it all, I don't need to eat, whatever. I just got sooooo mad and then told my husband you have to watch her so I can go take a bath. Well as soon as I shut the water off I could hear her screaming. Not just crying but screaming.
> 
> He was changing her diaper. That's all that was wrong.
> 
> I just got out and got dressed again and went out to get her.
> 
> She wanted me to hold her but kept pulling my hair, pinching me etc and stuck her fingers up my nose.
> 
> i finally yelled at her, god damn just leave me alone, can't you just leave me alone for 5 minutes.
> 
> she just looked at me and then fell asleep. I felt horrible but I'm just losing it. How could I know that having a baby would make me nuts?
> 
> I've always had anxiety attacks, depression etc. but this is really bad.
> 
> I know that one factor of it is the sleep, I don't get restful sleep and never get to lay down on my own.
> 
> I have a bad tooth which needs a root canal and it HURTS.
> 
> I don't have time to eat regularly and when I do eat it's not healthy. I have no sex drive, no interest in going out or doing anything, not that I would have time anyway. All I used to do was read in my free time, 2-3 books a week. Now a book takes me over a week at least.
> 
> 
> I'm totally losing it over here and I feel awful. I feel like I should give my LO to someone who will be nice to her all the time. Not a grumpy miserable bitch like me.

I think you need a break. I enjoy Quinn so much now I'm working... I think that for me it's a case of distance makes the heart grow fonder. 

Noelle said to me once that you don't have to enjoy the baby stage. For some reason that really helped me remember that there's so much more than the difficult first part. 

Did you get any meds for PPd? X


----------



## Noelle610

socitycourty said:


> i am just having such a horrible time. feeling like a really bad mom and bad person too,TBH.
> 
> Hadley is just so fussy and clingy. She's fed, eats 3 meals a day, has a million toys. But all she does now is crawl around after me crying, I was loading the car the other day, she was here in the house behind her gate, she cried so hard she was almost vomiting when I came back-after 3 minutes or less.
> 
> The past 2 days she has refused naps in the day, I can't put her down yet she won't fall asleep, she finally fell asleep and then woke up hysterically as I laid her down.
> 
> Yesterday was the same, no naps all day, I was alone with her and my niece all day, got home, found out we have to buy a new car for my DH, which we don't have money for. I was trying to eat dinner, she knocked it on the floor, which then meant it was covered in fuzz and mashed up puffs, so I was like just fuck it all, I don't need to eat, whatever. I just got sooooo mad and then told my husband you have to watch her so I can go take a bath. Well as soon as I shut the water off I could hear her screaming. Not just crying but screaming.
> 
> He was changing her diaper. That's all that was wrong.
> 
> I just got out and got dressed again and went out to get her.
> 
> She wanted me to hold her but kept pulling my hair, pinching me etc and stuck her fingers up my nose.
> 
> i finally yelled at her, god damn just leave me alone, can't you just leave me alone for 5 minutes.
> 
> she just looked at me and then fell asleep. I felt horrible but I'm just losing it. How could I know that having a baby would make me nuts?
> 
> I've always had anxiety attacks, depression etc. but this is really bad.
> 
> I know that one factor of it is the sleep, I don't get restful sleep and never get to lay down on my own.
> 
> I have a bad tooth which needs a root canal and it HURTS.
> 
> I don't have time to eat regularly and when I do eat it's not healthy. I have no sex drive, no interest in going out or doing anything, not that I would have time anyway. All I used to do was read in my free time, 2-3 books a week. Now a book takes me over a week at least.
> 
> 
> I'm totally losing it over here and I feel awful. I feel like I should give my LO to someone who will be nice to her all the time. Not a grumpy miserable bitch like me.

:hugs: That sounds hard. Serious separation anxiety.

What is her routine during the day? I wonder if Hadley might do well with something more rigid - I think most high needs babies do. If you could get her napping well, she would probaby be happier during the day and you would have some time to yourself.

I think if I were at the point you are, I would go ahead and do sleep training. I would start with nights and get that in order and then move on to naps at a later time. I'd probably choose the Ferber method or just full on CIO, since you're really getting no sleep at all and it's not healthy for you or Hadley.

Does she have a lovey? A little blankie really helps my LO at night. In addition, our pediatrician recommended a night light.

Hang in there, mama. You are doing great under very difficult circumstances. Most of us have snapped at one time or another and we don't have it half as hard as you do right now.


----------



## Noelle610

mrsbeano said:


> socitycourty said:
> 
> 
> i am just having such a horrible time. feeling like a really bad mom and bad person too,TBH.
> 
> Hadley is just so fussy and clingy. She's fed, eats 3 meals a day, has a million toys. But all she does now is crawl around after me crying, I was loading the car the other day, she was here in the house behind her gate, she cried so hard she was almost vomiting when I came back-after 3 minutes or less.
> 
> The past 2 days she has refused naps in the day, I can't put her down yet she won't fall asleep, she finally fell asleep and then woke up hysterically as I laid her down.
> 
> Yesterday was the same, no naps all day, I was alone with her and my niece all day, got home, found out we have to buy a new car for my DH, which we don't have money for. I was trying to eat dinner, she knocked it on the floor, which then meant it was covered in fuzz and mashed up puffs, so I was like just fuck it all, I don't need to eat, whatever. I just got sooooo mad and then told my husband you have to watch her so I can go take a bath. Well as soon as I shut the water off I could hear her screaming. Not just crying but screaming.
> 
> He was changing her diaper. That's all that was wrong.
> 
> I just got out and got dressed again and went out to get her.
> 
> She wanted me to hold her but kept pulling my hair, pinching me etc and stuck her fingers up my nose.
> 
> i finally yelled at her, god damn just leave me alone, can't you just leave me alone for 5 minutes.
> 
> she just looked at me and then fell asleep. I felt horrible but I'm just losing it. How could I know that having a baby would make me nuts?
> 
> I've always had anxiety attacks, depression etc. but this is really bad.
> 
> I know that one factor of it is the sleep, I don't get restful sleep and never get to lay down on my own.
> 
> I have a bad tooth which needs a root canal and it HURTS.
> 
> I don't have time to eat regularly and when I do eat it's not healthy. I have no sex drive, no interest in going out or doing anything, not that I would have time anyway. All I used to do was read in my free time, 2-3 books a week. Now a book takes me over a week at least.
> 
> 
> I'm totally losing it over here and I feel awful. I feel like I should give my LO to someone who will be nice to her all the time. Not a grumpy miserable bitch like me.
> 
> I think you need a break. I enjoy Quinn so much now I'm working... I think that for me it's a case of distance makes the heart grow fonder.
> 
> Noelle said to me once that you don't have to enjoy the baby stage. For some reason that really helped me remember that there's so much more than the difficult first part.
> 
> Did you get any meds for PPd? XClick to expand...

Is that ever true! I am finally enjoying motherhood at 9 months. When I was at the pediatrician's today for our checkup, there was a mom with a 2 week old baby. I turned to my husband and said, "I don't miss that". And I meant it.

I think the fact that I work and have a daily break really helps. I also think the meds I'm taking make a world of difference.


----------



## socitycourty

I was given xanax for occasional anxiety but can't take it every day. My ob wasn't very concerned when I saw him for what I thought was PPD, he told me to take vitamins. I'm going to ask the pediatrician at her 9 month appointment to evaluate me, I think she could do that.


----------



## dalismom

hi ladies, i need some sleep help. my lo is a reflux baby and has always been a terrible sleeper. he has given me one six hour stretch at exactly 12 wks and that was it. he sometimes went 4hour stretch first then 2s frommidnight to 8. he has always slept on me for naps, if i put him down he wakes up or maybe sleep for 20mins,MAX! he takes 3 hour or so long naps on me and a shorter nap at 415 and then bed at 7. well lately he goes down and is back up every hour or so and uo for the day at 6! he has always woke up alot in the evenings,after the initial bedtime but now it continues all night. i nurse him every two hours during the day and night,even though he wants it every wake up, i just rock him back to sleep. i would love him to nap in his crib but he just wont do it and for him to sleep even in 3 hour stretches. that's not ti much to ask,right? lol! our ped said cc but i just can't di it, he's so young yet. thanks for reading!!


----------



## Boo44

Noelle that's really interesting. Tbh I think we've been lucky with Jack's sleeping and I'm worried re this 9 month regression! He woke for 2 nights really crying out but was still mainly asleep when I went to him. Think he may be dreaming! Hasn't done it since *touch wood*. Not sure why I'm winding myself up with worrying re the 9 month regression. I did exactly the same at 4 months!!!!


----------



## Noelle610

socitycourty said:


> I was given xanax for occasional anxiety but can't take it every day. My ob wasn't very concerned when I saw him for what I thought was PPD, he told me to take vitamins. I'm going to ask the pediatrician at her 9 month appointment to evaluate me, I think she could do that.

Definitely ask for an evaluation. I think something you take daily would be more helpful if the anxiety is constant (which mine was, so I understand!).


----------



## Noelle610

dalismom said:


> hi ladies, i need some sleep help. my lo is a reflux baby and has always been a terrible sleeper. he has given me one six hour stretch at exactly 12 wks and that was it. he sometimes went 4hour stretch first then 2s frommidnight to 8. he has always slept on me for naps, if i put him down he wakes up or maybe sleep for 20mins,MAX! he takes 3 hour or so long naps on me and a shorter nap at 415 and then bed at 7. well lately he goes down and is back up every hour or so and uo for the day at 6! he has always woke up alot in the evenings,after the initial bedtime but now it continues all night. i nurse him every two hours during the day and night,even though he wants it every wake up, i just rock him back to sleep. i would love him to nap in his crib but he just wont do it and for him to sleep even in 3 hour stretches. that's not ti much to ask,right? lol! our ped said cc but i just can't di it, he's so young yet. thanks for reading!!

I relate! Mine was a refluxer too. How old is he now? Is he medicated for the reflux?


----------



## Noelle610

Boo44 said:


> Noelle that's really interesting. Tbh I think we've been lucky with Jack's sleeping and I'm worried re this 9 month regression! He woke for 2 nights really crying out but was still mainly asleep when I went to him. Think he may be dreaming! Hasn't done it since *touch wood*. Not sure why I'm winding myself up with worrying re the 9 month regression. I did exactly the same at 4 months!!!!

I'm a worrier myself, so I completely relate :) That certainly sounds like dreaming to me! I hope it doesn't become a regular thing for you. We had a few nights like that recently, too, but have had STTN without a peep the last two nights. Really hoping it continues.


----------



## dalismom

he is on zantac and just turned 4 months on monday


----------



## Noelle610

4 months is a terrible time for sleep! The 4 month sleep regression occurs when a baby's sleep becomes more "adult like" and they cycyle in and out of light sleep. It can cause more night waking, especially if baby is rocked/nursed/pacified to sleep, because they will need mom's help when they inevitably wake when entering a light sleep cycle. You might encourage some self-settling with the shh pat method:

https://www.mybabysleepguide.com/2009/01/shhpat.html

Do you have a Rock n Play Sleeper? My LO used one until 5 months old. They are GREAT for reflux babies:

https://www.amazon.com/Fisher-Price-Newborn-Rock-Sleeper-Yellow/dp/B002M77N22/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1361991584&sr=8-1&keywords=rock+n+play


----------



## dalismom

Noelle610 said:


> 4 months is a terrible time for sleep! The 4 month sleep regression occurs when a baby's sleep becomes more "adult like" and they cycyle in and out of light sleep. It can cause more night waking, especially if baby is rocked/nursed/pacified to sleep, because they will need mom's help when they inevitably wake when entering a light sleep cycle. You might encourage some self-settling with the shh pat method:
> 
> https://www.mybabysleepguide.com/2009/01/shhpat.html
> 
> Do you have a Rock n Play Sleeper? My LO used one until 5 months old. They are GREAT for reflux babies:
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Fisher-Price-Newborn-Rock-Sleeper-Yellow/dp/B002M77N22/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1361991584&sr=8-1&keywords=rock+n+play

that is what he sleeps in every night! :) i will look into thr sshhh pat, he usually just screams until i pick him up and it just wakes hik si much more. I am at a loss and so exhausted! 4 months is a long time with no sleep!!!


----------



## Noelle610

dalismom said:


> Noelle610 said:
> 
> 
> 4 months is a terrible time for sleep! The 4 month sleep regression occurs when a baby's sleep becomes more "adult like" and they cycyle in and out of light sleep. It can cause more night waking, especially if baby is rocked/nursed/pacified to sleep, because they will need mom's help when they inevitably wake when entering a light sleep cycle. You might encourage some self-settling with the shh pat method:
> 
> https://www.mybabysleepguide.com/2009/01/shhpat.html
> 
> Do you have a Rock n Play Sleeper? My LO used one until 5 months old. They are GREAT for reflux babies:
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Fisher-Price-Newborn-Rock-Sleeper-Yellow/dp/B002M77N22/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1361991584&sr=8-1&keywords=rock+n+play
> 
> that is what he sleeps in every night! :) i will look into thr sshhh pat, he usually just screams until i pick him up and it just wakes hik si much more. I am at a loss and so exhausted! 4 months is a long time with no sleep!!!Click to expand...

Oh that's great! Even if the sshh pat doesn't work, don't worry - this regression usually passes on it's own. Being sleep deprived is the worst!


----------



## Boo44

Noelle610 said:


> Boo44 said:
> 
> 
> Noelle that's really interesting. Tbh I think we've been lucky with Jack's sleeping and I'm worried re this 9 month regression! He woke for 2 nights really crying out but was still mainly asleep when I went to him. Think he may be dreaming! Hasn't done it since *touch wood*. Not sure why I'm winding myself up with worrying re the 9 month regression. I did exactly the same at 4 months!!!!
> 
> I'm a worrier myself, so I completely relate :) That certainly sounds like dreaming to me! I hope it doesn't become a regular thing for you. We had a few nights like that recently, too, but have had STTN without a peep the last two nights. Really hoping it continues.Click to expand...

Well the first night it happened he did it like 5 times! And I went in every time as he sounds distressed. But when I clocked that he was asleep and fine, the next night I decided to leave him for a minute first. That night he only did it once at 5am :) and stopped and self settled within 30 secs then slept til 7.45! Amazing. Last night he didn't dream but woke ready to party at 6.30. I'll take that!! Have you escaped the regression so far? Touch wood!!!!


----------



## Noelle610

Boo44 said:


> Noelle610 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Boo44 said:
> 
> 
> Noelle that's really interesting. Tbh I think we've been lucky with Jack's sleeping and I'm worried re this 9 month regression! He woke for 2 nights really crying out but was still mainly asleep when I went to him. Think he may be dreaming! Hasn't done it since *touch wood*. Not sure why I'm winding myself up with worrying re the 9 month regression. I did exactly the same at 4 months!!!!
> 
> I'm a worrier myself, so I completely relate :) That certainly sounds like dreaming to me! I hope it doesn't become a regular thing for you. We had a few nights like that recently, too, but have had STTN without a peep the last two nights. Really hoping it continues.Click to expand...
> 
> Well the first night it happened he did it like 5 times! And I went in every time as he sounds distressed. But when I clocked that he was asleep and fine, the next night I decided to leave him for a minute first. That night he only did it once at 5am :) and stopped and self settled within 30 secs then slept til 7.45! Amazing. Last night he didn't dream but woke ready to party at 6.30. I'll take that!! Have you escaped the regression so far? Touch wood!!!!Click to expand...

Oh that's great! Every time we have a bad night, I worry it's a new pattern or a sleep regression. We seemed to have escaped this one so far (knock on wood!!!). We've had the odd bad night where Charlotte has cried out in her sleep like Jack and we had that one night where she stood in her crib all night long, but otherwise her sleep has actually been really great recently!


----------



## dalismom

Noelle610 said:


> dalismom said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Noelle610 said:
> 
> 
> 4 months is a terrible time for sleep! The 4 month sleep regression occurs when a baby's sleep becomes more "adult like" and they cycyle in and out of light sleep. It can cause more night waking, especially if baby is rocked/nursed/pacified to sleep, because they will need mom's help when they inevitably wake when entering a light sleep cycle. You might encourage some self-settling with the shh pat method:
> 
> https://www.mybabysleepguide.com/2009/01/shhpat.html
> 
> Do you have a Rock n Play Sleeper? My LO used one until 5 months old. They are GREAT for reflux babies:
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Fisher-Price-Newborn-Rock-Sleeper-Yellow/dp/B002M77N22/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1361991584&sr=8-1&keywords=rock+n+play
> 
> that is what he sleeps in every night! :) i will look into thr sshhh pat, he usually just screams until i pick him up and it just wakes hik si much more. I am at a loss and so exhausted! 4 months is a long time with no sleep!!!Click to expand...
> 
> Oh that's great! Even if the sshh pat doesn't work, don't worry - this regression usually passes on it's own. Being sleep deprived is the worst!Click to expand...

Thank you! It is awful! What do yout think abouthis naps? Too many, too long or short? We do a bedtime routine but I don't even think it matters anymore?!


----------



## Noelle610

dalismom said:


> Noelle610 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dalismom said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Noelle610 said:
> 
> 
> 4 months is a terrible time for sleep! The 4 month sleep regression occurs when a baby's sleep becomes more "adult like" and they cycyle in and out of light sleep. It can cause more night waking, especially if baby is rocked/nursed/pacified to sleep, because they will need mom's help when they inevitably wake when entering a light sleep cycle. You might encourage some self-settling with the shh pat method:
> 
> https://www.mybabysleepguide.com/2009/01/shhpat.html
> 
> Do you have a Rock n Play Sleeper? My LO used one until 5 months old. They are GREAT for reflux babies:
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Fisher-Price-Newborn-Rock-Sleeper-Yellow/dp/B002M77N22/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1361991584&sr=8-1&keywords=rock+n+play
> 
> that is what he sleeps in every night! :) i will look into thr sshhh pat, he usually just screams until i pick him up and it just wakes hik si much more. I am at a loss and so exhausted! 4 months is a long time with no sleep!!!Click to expand...
> 
> Oh that's great! Even if the sshh pat doesn't work, don't worry - this regression usually passes on it's own. Being sleep deprived is the worst!Click to expand...
> 
> Thank you! It is awful! What do yout think abouthis naps? Too many, too long or short? We do a bedtime routine but I don't even think it matters anymore?!Click to expand...

Is he doing 3 hours worth of naps prior to 4pm or 3 hours per nap? If it's 3 hours per nap, I'd say they're too long. At his age, I'd aim to have him down after 90 minutes-2 hours of awake time. I would cap individual naps at 2 hours and I'd discourage napping after 5pm. It's hard because you can get into this undertired/overtired cycle. Baby sleep poorly at night and naps well during the day to make up for it, but then they're undertired and don't sleep soundly at night, which causes night wakings and the cycle starts again.

I would definitely stick with the bedtime routine. It may not seem like it matters, but it does. Dr. Weissbluth of "Healthy Sleep Habits, Happy Child" (great book!) has a chapter on colic/reflux babies. He says that parents of these kids often don't instill good habits because the _feel_ like they're not working, but they do work - it just takes them a bit longer to "get it".

If it helps, I had a baby just like yours - she's now 9 months old and sleeps through the night most nights. We did some things to encourage this, but I think it was mostly time and growing out of the reflux. Hang in there!


----------



## bananaz

OMG it finally happened! She slept through! She got up at 5am so a bit earlier than I might've liked, but still - I'm counting it! Yay night weaning :happydance:


----------



## Sunnie1984

Yay bananaz! 
Amazing news! Go Elsie! 

Sorry trying to keep up in Australia but its difficult! 

Daneuse we're on a 7 hour time difference, we flew from the Middle East not the USA. And I've kept her to the same time zone give or take an hour, so we can Ho out at night and she settle back in easier at home. (Plus I get a lie in!). 

Although Seren has a tummy bug! So last night spent in a&e to see a doctor as she had only had half the usual amount then threw up over a quarter of what she had drank. She's fine, and her appetite is a little better today, but I think she'll take a couple more days to feel normal and eat properly. Just in time for the flight home to disrupt her. 

Ah we'll, it's been a great trip considering. She's slept ok, even being ill. Just needs food at the beginning of the night and stirring a little, but then she is in our room, so we probably disturb her.


----------



## Noelle610

bananaz said:


> OMG it finally happened! She slept through! She got up at 5am so a bit earlier than I might've liked, but still - I'm counting it! Yay night weaning :happydance:

YAY!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## daneuse27

I was up 20 times again last night, tummy aches/gas again.. all I do is offer a dummy when she wakes with those pains, and Ill do a massage on her belly that helps expel gas, which often works but not always. I also give her gripe water before her last feed of the day. shes a good night time sleeper, and goes straight back to sleep after waking up, but if it persists then she'll keep waking up.
It seems to get better for a while and she'll sleep 12 hours when it does! (that was last week) but then we have rough patches like this one. Ive spoken to doctors about how gassy she is and they say that she'll just "grow out of it", but does it seem normal that a 6 month old baby is still so gassy? 
I'm breastfeeding and am now wondering if I should stop because I have to be so careful with what I eat and I miss comfort food at times...lol
But its weird, sometimes Ill eat plenty of dairy one day and shell sleep 12 hours, and other days Ill be so careful and she'll have a tummy ache all night long. So Im not sure if my diet is to blame or not. :shrug:


----------



## daneuse27

Sunnie1984 said:


> Yay bananaz!
> Amazing news! Go Elsie!
> 
> Sorry trying to keep up in Australia but its difficult!
> 
> Daneuse we're on a 7 hour time difference, we flew from the Middle East not the USA. And I've kept her to the same time zone give or take an hour, so we can Ho out at night and she settle back in easier at home. (Plus I get a lie in!).
> 
> Although Seren has a tummy bug! So last night spent in a&e to see a doctor as she had only had half the usual amount then threw up over a quarter of what she had drank. She's fine, and her appetite is a little better today, but I think she'll take a couple more days to feel normal and eat properly. Just in time for the flight home to disrupt her.
> 
> Ah we'll, it's been a great trip considering. She's slept ok, even being ill. Just needs food at the beginning of the night and stirring a little, but then she is in our room, so we probably disturb her.

Wow lots of travelling! I miss Australia, me and FOB actually used to live there, and now he lives in California (which is why I go there sometimes with LO) and I live in Canada. Yay for international babies. Although the baby jet lag isnt always fun. :haha:


----------



## dalismom

daneuse27 said:


> I was up 20 times again last night, tummy aches/gas again.. all I do is offer a dummy when she wakes with those pains, and Ill do a massage on her belly that helps expel gas, which often works but not always. I also give her gripe water before her last feed of the day. shes a good night time sleeper, and goes straight back to sleep after waking up, but if it persists then she'll keep waking up.
> It seems to get better for a while and she'll sleep 12 hours when it does! (that was last week) but then we have rough patches like this one. Ive spoken to doctors about how gassy she is and they say that she'll just "grow out of it", but does it seem normal that a 6 month old baby is still so gassy?
> I'm breastfeeding and am now wondering if I should stop because I have to be so careful with what I eat and I miss comfort food at times...lol
> But its weird, sometimes Ill eat plenty of dairy one day and shell sleep 12 hours, and other days Ill be so careful and she'll have a tummy ache all night long. So Im not sure if my diet is to blame or not. :shrug:

I'm in the same boat, my lo is sooooo gassy, dr told me to eliminate cows milk and see uf it helps. i guess we will see, but mine must be the sleep regression because there doesn't seem to be any rhyme or reason to his sleep at all lol


----------



## Noelle610

daneuse27 said:


> I was up 20 times again last night, tummy aches/gas again.. all I do is offer a dummy when she wakes with those pains, and Ill do a massage on her belly that helps expel gas, which often works but not always. I also give her gripe water before her last feed of the day. shes a good night time sleeper, and goes straight back to sleep after waking up, but if it persists then she'll keep waking up.
> It seems to get better for a while and she'll sleep 12 hours when it does! (that was last week) but then we have rough patches like this one. Ive spoken to doctors about how gassy she is and they say that she'll just "grow out of it", but does it seem normal that a 6 month old baby is still so gassy?
> I'm breastfeeding and am now wondering if I should stop because I have to be so careful with what I eat and I miss comfort food at times...lol
> But its weird, sometimes Ill eat plenty of dairy one day and shell sleep 12 hours, and other days Ill be so careful and she'll have a tummy ache all night long. So Im not sure if my diet is to blame or not. :shrug:

Is she well established with solids? Solids really helped Charlotte's reflux. I wonder if you could add some things to her diet to squash the gas.


----------



## socitycourty

think i will start sleep training tonight. not sure if cc or cio will work. but i've woken up with a thumping headache yet again i'm totally over bedsharing and still getting a shit sleep :(


----------



## Noelle610

socitycourty said:


> think i will start sleep training tonight. not sure if cc or cio will work. but i've woken up with a thumping headache yet again i'm totally over bedsharing and still getting a shit sleep :(

GOOD LUCK! The first night is the hardest. Stick with it. We will be thinking of you :flower:


----------



## bananaz

*Sunnie* - Sorry to hear Seren isn't well, but I'm glad she's been sleeping okay and that your trip is still going well. 

*daneuse* - My LO didn't start growing out of her food sensitivities until 8 months, but thankfully I did an elimination diet so I knew what she was reacting to and could take precautions before then. There are a lot of things that babies can be sensitive to other than dairy though. My LO's pediatrician was convinced that dairy was the issue even after I'd cut it out, but the problem was actually cinnamon! 

*socitycourty* - Good luck! If it were me I would start with CC and see how she does. Like Noelle said, the first night is the hardest but it may not be as bad as you expect.


----------



## daneuse27

No, the solids arent really helpng. She has infant cereal for breakfast, vegetable for lunch and infant oatmeal for dinner. Havent seen them make a difference one way or another.
Last week was such a good week...she was sleeping solidly 10-12 hours/night and taking regular naps! And now, night time is shit and naps are non existent.. wtf! why do things suddenly change so drastically? :(


----------



## Boo44

bananaz said:


> OMG it finally happened! She slept through! She got up at 5am so a bit earlier than I might've liked, but still - I'm counting it! Yay night weaning :happydance:

Best post ever!!


----------



## AngelUK

YAY congrats bananaz! Long may it continue :D


----------



## bananaz

Thanks guys! I've got my fingers crossed for a repeat performance but knowing Elsie it's unlikely she's going to just sleep through all night every night from now on. I'd be happy if she at least made it an occasional thing though!


----------



## Boo44

Did you sleep through bananaz or did you keep wondering how you got so lucky? Lol. I always do that!!


----------



## bananaz

Boo44 said:


> Did you sleep through bananaz or did you keep wondering how you got so lucky? Lol. I always do that!!

I had a small glass of wine and some melatonin before bed so I slept just fine :haha:


----------



## bananaz

Sadly Elsie's STTN streak was only one night long. She had wakings at 2am and 3am before getting up for the day at 5am. It wouldn't have been too bad except mama decided to go out last night and didn't get to bed until midnight :blush: 

I think I'm going to start playing with her bedtime to see if I can get her to sleep in until at least 6am. She goes down around 6:30pm now and I really don't want it any earlier than that so I guess I'll try pushing it later.


----------



## Noelle610

Hey, that's not too bad Bananaz! When Charlotte started STTN it was very inconsistent. And quite honestly, it still is. She slept through three nights in a row this week and last night woke at 4am and 5:30am. So it just varies, especially with "passionate" children like ours :)


----------



## Boo44

I'm thinking of playing around with Jack's bedtime too. We had a 6am this morning which doesn't sound too bad but last week we had two 7.45's so I'm thinking 7 may be optimal for him?! He currently is down at 7.30pm. Do you sleep gurus think I should try 7pm? 

Hoping I don't end up with a 5.30am lol

Hang in there bananaz I've a feeling she's getting the hang of it. Won't be long til she sttn more consistently

My SIL has a 17 month old who is still having MOTN parties mainly when she is cutting her molars. She told me today her LO has done 7-8 this week! 13hrs! And she said she has learnt that when her LO has a bad sleeping spell it always is over within 1-2 weeks. I found that reassuring :)


----------



## bananaz

Boo44 said:


> I'm thinking of playing around with Jack's bedtime too. We had a 6am this morning which doesn't sound too bad but last week we had two 7.45's so I'm thinking 7 may be optimal for him?! He currently is down at 7.30pm. Do you sleep gurus think I should try 7pm?
> 
> Hoping I don't end up with a 5.30am lol
> 
> Hang in there bananaz I've a feeling she's getting the hang of it. Won't be long til she sttn more consistently
> 
> My SIL has a 17 month old who is still having MOTN parties mainly when she is cutting her molars. She told me today her LO has done 7-8 this week! 13hrs! And she said she has learnt that when her LO has a bad sleeping spell it always is over within 1-2 weeks. I found that reassuring :)

Trying to move his bedtime up a bit sounds like a good idea. 7:30pm is pretty late for a lot of babies that age.


----------



## MrsPear

Boo44 said:


> I'm thinking of playing around with Jack's bedtime too. We had a 6am this morning which doesn't sound too bad but last week we had two 7.45's so I'm thinking 7 may be optimal for him?! He currently is down at 7.30pm. Do you sleep gurus think I should try 7pm?
> 
> Hoping I don't end up with a 5.30am lol
> 
> Hang in there bananaz I've a feeling she's getting the hang of it. Won't be long til she sttn more consistently
> 
> My SIL has a 17 month old who is still having MOTN parties mainly when she is cutting her molars. She told me today her LO has done 7-8 this week! 13hrs! And she said she has learnt that when her LO has a bad sleeping spell it always is over within 1-2 weeks. I found that reassuring :)

Yeah I would play around a bit, I have found that 6:30 tends to be good for Joni. The nights he slept later was he up in the night more? When Joni has a bad night she often sleeps in till about 7:30 (I know that's not the same for everyone on here though), when she has a better night it's about 6am. x


----------



## L-C

Between 6:30 and 7 pm and closer to half six def works better here xx


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## NotNic

It's reassuring to hear that it's not just Finlay whose an inconsistent sleeper. In the last week and a bit we've been pretty 50:50 on sleeping through. He does seem to know when you need to sleep though as they're the nights that are bad! Went out with the NCT girls last night. Was in bed at midnight but I had a few alcoholic drinks. Even though I had lots of water too, I knew I might feel peaky this morning so I was anxious for a good sleep. I was woken up at 2am, then a good 4/5 times betwen 3 and 4am I was up resettling F who thought it was a good time to 'sleep crawl'. I was up again at 5am and 6.30 I heard the chirpy, chatter / squealing of a baby who is ready for the day. :( This baby then decided 25 mins was an adequate length morning nap. Booo!


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## Boo44

Ok so I chickened out of putting him to bed earlier last night as he'd had a later nap. And I read some dr weissbluth stuff online (first time I've ever done that!) which said sometimes it can backfire and I really can't cope with 5.30am. But now I'm lying here awake at 7am and jack has been up since 6am. I left him until 6.40 as he was just mumbling and fussing but then I went and put his dummy in. Worked for 10 mins and he's still awake

I'm confused as earlier this week he slept until 7.45 twice in a row with no early morning wakings. Then suddenly out of the blue he's done four 6am starts. He's not ill (for once!) or teething and no major milestones happening. I'm feeling really tired and down about the whole thing now (pretty pathetic!) mainly as I'm aware it could get a whole lot worse!

His routine is bottle and breakfast 8am, have been putting off morning nap until at least 10am sometimes 10.30 (in an attempt to push his waking time later but no help!) this nap can last until 11.30, then lunch at 12, bottle around 3, nap 3.30-4.30 (is this too late? Often have to wake him up at 4.30...) dinner at 5pm. Then bath 6.30, bottle 7 and bed 7.30

Just wanted to tell you the full picture really and garner opinion on his whole routine. Will try for incremental moving of bedtime earlier starting with 7.15 tonight and pray that we don't get any earlier mornings..

Edit - he often has a dirty nappy now when I get him up which is a new development but doesn't seem to be going away!


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## Sunnie1984

Quick reply! 

Boo44 I find that to get Seren to bed at 6:30 she needs to be awake by 4pm. 

If she misses a nap, I let her have 15 mins after 4pm but no more or she'll be too awake by bedtime. 

Bath at 5:30 then we chill out in her room and do bottle and story, then bed at 6:30pm.

We tried to do later bedtime but she's just so overtired!


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## L-C

I read Richard Ferbers book the other day and he suggested naps during the day day between, 9 - 10 am and 2 - 3 pm, we've been doing this and it seems to work better. The sooner I get DD down in the mornings the better the day is. Bed time is great if she naps until 3 or 3:30 pm.

I'm having a problem with solids, my DD is 9 months and won't eat. I offer mush and finger foods and she barely eats a thing. I think she is taking too much milk in the night but, if she needs it how do I cut it. It's like the chick and the egg. Would prefer that she took more solids, before cutting or reducing the night feeds..... any ideas??


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## anti

Sorry I've been MIA for a while. Have had some very rough nights, but ashlynn has woken up with a tooth cut through today, her first one!! So I'm hoping its gonna get better now, although I can see another two teeth aren't far off so not sure when its gonna settle but I'm just gonna ride this one out for a while... I'm hoping it was that and not a regression.


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## MrsPear

anti said:


> Sorry I've been MIA for a while. Have had some very rough nights, but ashlynn has woken up with a tooth cut through today, her first one!! So I'm hoping its gonna get better now, although I can see another two teeth aren't far off so not sure when its gonna settle but I'm just gonna ride this one out for a while... I'm hoping it was that and not a regression.

Congrats on the tooth!! Hopefully it won't be too drawn out getting the others.

Joni has been sleeping okay recently. Last night she was up only once! I did a dreamfeed at 10:30 then she woke up at 3:45. Unfortunately she thought it was morning :dohh: but I was not up for that, so I just left her playing in her cot for an hour whilst I lay still as a mouse on the bed, then rocked her to sleep about 5am or so, and she managed 2 more hours!

She does still have bad nights (being constipated was really giving her pain for about 2 weeks but we are over it now fingers crossed), but we are really at a stage now where I feel that she is in fact happier in her cot than on me, and I never thought we would get there. I put her down in the night after a feed or a quick cuddle, and it's actually (generally) quicker now to get her to sleep by standing next to her or just putting my hand on her than it would be rocking her.


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## Sunnie1984

Mrspear you are incredible! Compare your posts now to your posts three weeks ago! Lora of great progress! Keep at it, Joni seems to be much better in herself now. 

Imagine an hour playing by herself, not needing you to hold her! 

C


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## bananaz

*NotNic* - Ugh, we've had way too many nights like that. It seems they always know when you really need some rest!

*Boo* - Your routine sounds good. I've heard that daytime sleep should be done by 4pm however for Elsie I haven't found that late naps have an effect on her nighttime sleep at all. I hope moving bedtime up a little works for you, though I understand how scary it is!

*L-C* - For my LO I think getting her established on solids had to be done before complete night weaning could happen rather than the other way around. She also wasn't really interested in solids for a long time but I just kept offering and eventually something clicked and she started eating. How much is your DD drinking at night? Have you tried gradually reducing that amount to see if she'll make up for it in the day instead?

*anti* - I hope you both get some better rest now that that tooth is in!

*MrsPear* - Wow, you two have made such amazing progress! Fingers crossed that it continues :)



Last night started out great - she slept straight from 6:45pm to 4:15am without a peep. Unfortunately after that she had a really hard time resettling herself and it took an hour and a half to get her back to sleep, even with a feeding and a diaper change :(

I'm very confused about how to handle these 4am wakings now that I've done night weaning. On the one hand I know I don't want her to expect night feedings, but on the other hand she's still a little baby and it seems reasonable for her to be hungry after 9+ hours of sleep. Not to mention that on a good night it usually takes her at least 20-30 minutes to resettle herself, at which point it's often past her normal 5am wake-up time and she's likely to want to stay up for the day. Thoughts?


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## mrsbeano

Bananaz from my reading about night weaning before I did it, it said that early waking is a common result. Quinn had a week of waking up before he was ready, but it passed. Still sounds like an improvement, even if you do end up going to bed when she does! 

Mrs Pear - Shhh-pat is the puppies gonads :happydance:


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## Boo44

Well, tonight ended up being completely different to normal as we went out for a family tea :) I found it refreshing to not worry too much and just write it off as a 'bad evening' - seems almost easier to accept that than bother worrying about getting stuff perfect lol!

He had a loooong nap 12.45 - 2.15 and then was ready to party! So we went out for tea at 5 and he didn't want a nap before. Infact he ended up being so happy and cute in the restaurant and not tired at all. Weird! Did actually manage to get him down for 7.15 tonight which was my aim. So let's see what happens.... Have a feeling that being awake for 5 hrs before bed may not be optimal, lol. But hey we had fun!

MrsPear that is so amazing that Joni now prefers being in her cot. I bet that seemed so far away recently!

Anti I'm pleased the teeth are through/almost through! Jack had an awful time getting his bottom 2 through and once they came up it was like a switch - different child!

Bananaz - I think giving her time to attempt resettling is the best idea, then if no joy, going in to see if she seems hungry. I would say waiting would just make sure the night weaning is cemented, but like you say, if she's hungry there's not much you can do! Hopefully like mrsbeano says, the early wakings are just temporary :flower:


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## socitycourty

chickened out and have not started sleep training yet :(


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## Boo44

Well putting him down 15 mins early resulted in him waking at 5.45, fifteen mins earlier than yesterday :( :( :( Tried dummy straight away but he's just awake. It's so weird as he often woke at 6.30 and I'd sometimes give dummy and sometimes not, but he'd always go back to sleep. I don't understand what's changed!

Shall I go back to bed at 7.30 and just stick with routine and hope it ends soon?

Edit - we left him in his cot babbling away. Hubby went and gave dummy at around 7 and he went back to sleep until 8...


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## Noelle610

Boo, I would just keep playing around with it. Sometimes Charlotte goes through a few weeks of waking early, only to go back to her original wake up time without my changing everything.

Socity, no need to worry. You will get there! No sense in starting sleep training until you are ready, because consistency is key.


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## socitycourty

it seems even worse now because her new wake up time is 6:30 a.m.!!!!


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## Shadowy Lady

hi ladies! I'm back!! I'm pretty beat now and need to refresh with a few hours of sleep and then catch up on all (or some) of the things I missed out on here when I was gone.

It was a great trip and Sofia got to meet her grandparents (my DH parents) for the first time. Sleep got super messed up though. She went from only waking up once a night or sttn for 3 weeks before the trip to waking up twice a night while we were there. The last two nights she woke up 3 times :/ The one thing was that my inlaws don't have AC and it was super warm so we couldn't put her in a sleepsack and she's not used to just sleeping in her diaper (it's winter here in Canada and Sofia has never really known heat). 

I'm really hoping that's why she's been waking up coz she didn't really wanna eat each time...just fussing. Oh ya and since she was always held by someone there now she's super cranky the moment I put her down or she can't see me. I can get nothing done....again hoping it's temporary :/

Hope you ladies are well and your babies are sleeping. I srsly need to catch up on here tomorrow


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## Shadowy Lady

Ok, let me see if I can kinda sorta catch up now:

Bananaz - glad to hear Elsie gave you a sttn. I know she only did it once but it looks like an upward trend to me. Best of luck to you both :)

Sunshine - maaaan that time change is a killer. Sorry to hear Seren is poorly. Hope she feels better soon. 

Socity - don't be afraid of sleep training. I think if you stick to it you'll both be better in the end. 

Noelle - glad to see that Charlotte is still doing well. See how far she has come since you started this thread?

We had a better night so I think Sofia might be adjusting already. She went to sleep at 6:45 am, woke up at 1 am and then at 5:30 am. At 5:30 am though she didn't wanna eat at all, just took 1 oz and went back to sleep till 8 am. 

This morning though she's been fighting her nap like crazy. She has her eyes closed but crying and crying :( wonder what's up...


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## bananaz

*socitycourty* - :hugs: Like Noelle said, you're not ready until you're ready! I'm sure you'll get it worked out one way or the other

*Shadowy* - Good to see you back :) It sounds like Sofia's already getting back on track.


The last two nights have been pretty damn good. The night before last she slept from 6:30pm-4:30am (10 freaking hours!). I knew from experience that if I didn't get her back to sleep quickly she would just be up for the day so I ran in and fed her and then she slept until 6:30 :happydance: I can't even tell you how amazing it felt to sleep in past 6am after these weeks of 5am wakeups.

This morning she woke at 4:30am again but after I ran in and fed her she didn't fall asleep straight away and I woke up at 5:45 to her crying hysterically. When I'd drifted off before she'd just been chatting to herself, but I could tell when I went to her that she'd been crying for at least a few minutes and it didn't seem like she'd gone back to sleep at all :( Anyway, I nursed her again and then had to stand patting her back for 20 minutes to get her to settle.

I'm not sure whether I'm ruining my night weaning efforts by feeding her at 4:30 but since her normal span of sleep was 6:30pm-5am it doesn't seem like a big deal? Especially if it means she might go back to sleep for a while...


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## Noelle610

Shadowy Lady, great to hear from you! I'm almost positive Sophia will go back to her usual self. I think travel messes with most babies sleep. They're creatures of habit.

Bananaz, I think it's fine to feed at 4:30am. Maybe you could set a feeding cutoff, like 9 or 10 hours. If she wakes after that time, you will feed. 

Charlotte's naps got messed up on Sunday and she slept like crap - waking 5 or 6 times. She napped like normal yesterday and slept 7pm-6:30am without a peep. It was great. We have to opt out of our Baby Groove class on Sundays because this has happened six weeks in a row.


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## bananaz

Yeah, I'm sure it's a fun class but 5-6 wakings just doesn't seem worth it!


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## Noelle610

bananaz said:


> Yeah, I'm sure it's a fun class but 5-6 wakings just doesn't seem worth it!

Nope!!:nope:


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## Shadowy Lady

thanks guys. I'm a bit worried though coz today she doesn't wanna nap and I dont know how she'll do at night. She woke up at 8 am and fought her morning nap like crazy! She only fell asleep in the car for 30 mins (at 10:30 am) and then another 30 mins (1:30 pm) in the mall. 

She looks wide awake now at 3:30 pm and wants to play :/ I'm very concerned about tonight....


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## Boo44

Hi shadowy pleased you had a good vacation! Just wanted to say that jack has been waking at silly early hours recently even though I had his naps 'perfect' then on Sunday all day long all he managed were 30 mins at 10-10.30 and another 30mins at 2-2.30. He was then awake for 5 hrs before bed and I was so worried. Well that night was the best in ages and he slept til 7am! Obv I wouldn't recommend rubbishy naps but just wanted to give you some hope for tonight lol x


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## Shadowy Lady

Thanks Boo, you're right I shouldn't worry maybe she actually be adult like and sleep more coz she napped less? heheh I can hope at least :) Oh and I just saw some of Jack's pics in the baby fashion thread...he's as cute as ever!

I just put Sofia down for a nap in her crib. She rolled to her stomach immediately and then started to fuss. I let her be and she went to sleep after 10 mins on her stomach. She's never slept like that before....I'm worried is unsafe but DH says I should let her be...

Do any of you guys babies sleep on their tummy? This is such a new (and worrying) development for me...


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## Boo44

Jack doesn't roll still really :( But I think most babies like to roll onto their tummies and sleep like that. I wouldn't worry at Sofia's age. You never know she might sleep even better!


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## Noelle610

Mine is a tummy sleeper! Once they can get into a comfortable position, it's safe for them to stay that way.
 



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## Shadowy Lady

awesome! Thanks ladies...I always need to worry about something I suppose.

Noelle - loving that picture of Charlotte. Is it recent?


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## Noelle610

Shadowy Lady said:


> awesome! Thanks ladies...I always need to worry about something I suppose.
> 
> Noelle - loving that picture of Charlotte. Is it recent?

Yup, that's my little peanut last night! She is just 17 pounds and in the 15th percentile for her height and weight.


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## Boo44

Noelle610 said:


> Shadowy Lady said:
> 
> 
> awesome! Thanks ladies...I always need to worry about something I suppose.
> 
> Noelle - loving that picture of Charlotte. Is it recent?
> 
> Yup, that's my little peanut last night! She is just 17 pounds and in the 15th percentile for her height and weight.Click to expand...

Aww tiny gorgeous girl! My boy is 21lb (well he was in January anyway!) and is on 99.6th percentile for his height. He's soooo long. Am hoping that's why he won't move :(


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## Noelle610

Boo44 said:


> Noelle610 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shadowy Lady said:
> 
> 
> awesome! Thanks ladies...I always need to worry about something I suppose.
> 
> Noelle - loving that picture of Charlotte. Is it recent?
> 
> Yup, that's my little peanut last night! She is just 17 pounds and in the 15th percentile for her height and weight.Click to expand...
> 
> Aww tiny gorgeous girl! My boy is 21lb (well he was in January anyway!) and is on 99.6th percentile for his height. He's soooo long. Am hoping that's why he won't move :(Click to expand...

Aww thanks Boo! I didn't realize she was quite so little until her 9 month appointment. I brought her to the science center this weekend and another mom asked me if she was FOUR MONTHS OLD. I wanted to say, "Have you seen a 4 month old who can crawl like this?", but she was sweet so I didn't :)

For what it's worth, I have several friends with taller babies who achieved their physical milestones a bit later. Charlotte's little friend from daycare was born a day before her, but she's in the 95th percentile for height. She is a really bright, sweet, engaging girl, but only just started crawling, about 1.5 months after C. It will come!


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## Boo44

Ahh thanks that's good to know. It's getting to the stage now where I'm starting to worry. Even though I know they 'all do it in their own time' etc etc! He's just sooo static! He's never even rolled back to front yet! Which I think is a bit odd.....


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## Noelle610

Boo44 said:


> Ahh thanks that's good to know. It's getting to the stage now where I'm starting to worry. Even though I know they 'all do it in their own time' etc etc! He's just sooo static! He's never even rolled back to front yet! Which I think is a bit odd.....

He may just not like rolling. Charlotte never really did either. Even after she rolled, it wasn't a regular thing during the day.

My pediatrician mentioned to Charlotte's daycare buddy's mom that 20% of his patient population never crawls and just goes straight to walking! She hadn't yet crawled at her 9 month appointment and her mom asked about it, as she was nervous too. He said not to worry.


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## Shadowy Lady

Noelle - She is so cute! I love her hair too, Sofia barely has any hair still! Though I was a bald baby myself but I've got hair now, lol! And omg what kinda person thinks a 4 months old can crawl... lol!

Boo - My bff's friend's baby started crawling super early at 6 months but he didn't walk till 16 months. They all are really different. I would enjoy Jack's laid back nature now. Once he starts moving around you may wish he didn't hehe!


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## socitycourty

I agree....enjoy non mobile babies for the time being. Hadley is into everything right now and I feel like we're never 100% baby proof, lol

Hadley had her 9 month checkup today. The doctor asked about her sleep.....after I told her what goes on and everything she suggested CIO....cold turkey. 

I just don't know if I can do it!


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## Noelle610

socitycourty said:


> I agree....enjoy non mobile babies for the time being. Hadley is into everything right now and I feel like we're never 100% baby proof, lol
> 
> Hadley had her 9 month checkup today. The doctor asked about her sleep.....after I told her what goes on and everything she suggested CIO....cold turkey.
> 
> I just don't know if I can do it!

It's a very personal decision... But if I were in your position, I would do it!


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## anti

Ashlynn has never rolled, and doesn't move around, no crawling, no shuffling, nothing! All in good time I guess. She does move about in her cot at nap time though. Nights she's in a sleeping bag so can't really move.


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## mrsbeano

Hi girls, hope you have some advice for me! 

Recently, Quinn got a sickness bug so needed to be fed at night again. He is now all better so we're re night weaning but the past 2 nights he has woken up although he isn't hungry. He woke up just once on both occassions and when we picked him up he was squirming around and crying, like he didn't know what he wanted. 

Is this a developmental thing? Seperation anxiety maybe? He has learned to stand up this past week so I'm not sure if he hurt himself practising or something but its weird that he's only waking up the once. 

I'm not really complaining, just wondering if there was anything to gleam from your experiences! x


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## Noelle610

Mrsbeano, it could be a number of things but I think he's probably just waking from habit after being sick. Just be consistent and it will pass. That happened to us after an ear infection for about a week.

I'm super tired today. We're teething again and had mutiple wake ups. On top of that, we have a big snow storm coming and pretty much everyone I know is home, but I have to work! I really would have liked the day off with Charlotte. Love my job, but super bummed right now :(


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## socitycourty

awww Noelle....agree with being tired, wish we had snow! we had a wind/rain storm which is very noisy, my house is old LOL

I think I am going to start the CIO tonight. I was originally really afraid but last night she fell asleep, I tried to lay her down, woke up again.....we fell asleep together around 10. she woke up around 1 am for bottle, then fussed. woke up again around 3 something. then up at 4:50 a.m. then up for the day at 6:45 a.m.

My head hurts, I'm so tired I feel like I could just die.

So with CIO what happens if she's hungry in the night? I dn't want to skip a bottle if she's legitimately hungry....

I don't know how to do this right


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## Noelle610

Socity, it's tough. You can either go cold turkey. A lot of people would say she doesn't need it at 9 months, but that's truly up to you. Or, you could set a feeding cutoff. You could say, I'm not going to feed for wakings prior to 6 hours after bedtime (just use whichever sleep training method you use to respond), but after 6 hours I'll feed. 

I saw this today and thought of you. I don't agree with it all, but I think some of it's good and might help:

https://kidspluspgh.com/upload/Kids+SleepHandout.pdf


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## socitycourty

thank you. lots of good information although of course I don't agree with all of it either but a lot makes sense.


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## Noelle610

socitycourty said:


> thank you. lots of good information although of course I don't agree with all of it either but a lot makes sense.

Sure. There's no "one size fits all" for sleep stuff, but I think it has some good info on the how and why of getting a baby to sleep on their own.


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## Shadowy Lady

Socity - good luck hunnie! I know sleep training is hard but honestly everyone I know has had better sleepers after. I never have done CIO but Ferber worked great for us.

Noelle - sorry to hear you're tired. I'm not looking forward to teething. And yes the snow storm is all the rage here too! Nothing today but last week it snowed here everyday (or so my mom says coz we were away)...we got 30 cm in one day!! Can't believe they won't let you work from home :(

So guess what ladies? Sofia sttn last night!!!! She went to sleep at 6:30 pm even though she had that long nap on her tummy. She slept on her back though and no peep from her till 6 am!! I was shocked and pleased and hoping this continues. I'm still on sleep meds but weaning myself off slowly (taking a half pill every other day). Sofia is still clingier than usual and wants me to be within her sight but I cannot complain if the sttn is a (sorta) perm thing :D


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## Noelle610

Go Sophia!


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## Sunnie1984

Ill reply to everyone properly later (once I've had coffee!)

Shadowy Lady - yay for STTN. 

Noelle - hugs! 

All I have to say is wonder week 26, jet lag, 6 months injections = waking every 15 minutes from bedtime.... All night.... I am a zombie!


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## Boo44

:hugs: sunnie :hugs: the only way is up


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## anti

We had a good night last night. Asleep by 6:30 and woke at 4am... Although she stayed awake for 90 mins before going back to sleep for another two hours. But it gives me hope that sttn isn't such a distant goal after all.


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## Shadowy Lady

Sunnie - omg your poor baby! I know it will all be back to normal soon though...she just needs time to re-adjust.

Anti - yay that's awesome progress!

Sofia took good naps yesterday but no more sttn at night. She woke up at 1 am fussing but not wanting to eat. We left her and she went back to sleep after 20 mins or so. Then she woke up again at 6 am, fussed around talking to herself and whatnot. Then she flipped to her tummy and went to sleep and is still asleep at 8am.

I'm now convinced that she doesn't really need to feed at night. So hopefully soon she will just learn to stay asleep. Moms to tummy sleepers, at bed time, do you place baby on tummy or back and let them turn when they need?


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## mrsbeano

Socity - not sure if you did CIO last night or not but we did :blush:

As I said yesterday, he has been waking up for no good reason (usually at 4.30 - how does he know?!) just once a night and then being a bit of a mess so last night I left him. For 10 minutes he wailed, ridiculous screaming blue murder. He then wound down from that point. He was up and making it known for 18 minutes and then went to sleep until morning. 

It is horrible and I couldn't sleep afterwards but hopefully, if we're consistent he'll get the message. 

Sunnie - that sounds horrendous and I am never going to Australia until he's a teenager LOL


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## Noelle610

Sunnie, I'm sorry! That just sounds like the perfect storm for no sleep. I bet your LO bounces back quickly. Just go about your normal routine and let her settle in. When I have a bad night like that, I feel terrified it will become a pattern, but it rarely is.

Anti, glad to hear about improvment on the sleeping front!

Shadowy Lady, when Charlotte started STTN, she often woke and settled herself quickly. I think this is just part of the learning process on putting themselves back to sleep. It's frustrating because it wakes YOU! She will still do this from time to time. Babies are noisy sleepers. 

MrsBeano, sorry you had to do CIO! I hope it works for you.

Charlotte is still teething badly, but STTN last night. I feel soooo well-rested today. I feel like we've come a long way.


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## Sunnie1984

Ok, I can finally sit and reply properly, before I try to go to bed again! 

Boo44 - I think an earlier bedtime still looks like it's worth a try, to see if it helps to settle him better. You can always switch it back if needs be. 

LC - Don't worry too much about solids, just keep offering and eventually she'll take them. Food is only to taste really until they are a year old. until then milk is more than enough. 

Anti - Congrats on the tooth! 

Mrspear - Sorry you had an accidental "morning" with Joni. I'm so pleased you had success with getting her to settle in her cot. I bet she sleeps much better now. 

Bananaz - Does Elsie cry at the 4am wakings or just scuffle around? You might find she's just adapting to the additional sleep, now she's not waking for night feeds? If she's not crying I'd just leave her to it. 

Seren often does this and if I ignore her she'll nap again, and after a few days she goes back to a normal wake up. 

Socity - :hugs: The decision to sleep train is so hard. I hope you come to a decision that works for you. Have you thought about doing sshhh pat like Mrspear did? That would be a much gentler method than CIO. 

I agree with Noelle about setting a time on when she can next have feeds or night weaning totally. She probably doesn't need feeds at her age, but it's just weaning her that's tricky if she's not dropped the feeds herself. 

Shadowy Lady - So glad you had a great trip, and that Sofia is settling back in ok. The weather must have been a shock to her when she's used to the cold! 

We tummy sleep over here. Once she could roll, Seren kept rolling onto her tummy. We have a movement monitor, so I wasn't so concerned about her. She can roll both ways now, so she can always go the other way if she wants to. 

I tend to put her down on her tummy, as she often wakes herself if she's on her back and then she's so tired she can't get onto her tummy and so gets wound up. 

Noelle - Sorry you had to give up the class, but the decent sleep outweighs it! You can always try to pick it back up in a month or so, see if she can take the class without it disturbing sleep then? 

Charlotte is just so adorable! Hope she gets her next round of teeth through soon so you can get back to great sleep! 

Mrsbeano - I find that wakings when they just seem to not really know why they are awake are usually developmental. Don't worry about CIO, sometimes it has to be done, and those times sound pretty good for a first attempt. 



And as for me....... :haha:

It's all a little bit of a mess. The travelling was smack in the run up to WW26 stormy period. 

So she's been a little all over the place. She doesn't really know which side of the equator she's on, never mind day from night etc. 

Then the tummy bug kicked in once we got there, so we had a trip to the hospital in the dead of night which obviously made her even worse as she was overtired. 

Then on the way back the captain forgot to turn off the seatbelt signs (and no one would ask him to turn them off :growlmad: ) so I held her for 10 hours while she slept. I think my spine is still fused together. 

So she had a great sleep, although rather disturbed as we were on a plane and right next to the bathrooms. So she moved a lot. Plus she's not used to sleeping on me, so I think the extra heat was a little uncomfortable for her. 

The worst part was that I struggled to sleep while we were in Australia (no idea why, I was just awake) and then I didn't sleep at all on the night flight as I was holding her. So I did 36 hours straight with no sleep. 

She was pretty good the first night back, woke once or twice for a few minutes during the night but then was awake at 4am (the time she'd been getting up in Aus). I left her to it and she just dozed and babbled until 5:50am when she was hungry, so I got up and fed. She was only 30 minutes away from normal wake up, so I was pretty pleased. 

Then I think WW26 really kicked in, the next night she woke 5 times, again not really for anything, just awake, cried and went back to sleep. 

Finally last night.... which is officially the worst ever! I actually think it was much more WW26 than anything else, although I guess the injections must have knocked her off a bit, even though no temperature. 

She just couldn't sleep. When she'd had her bottle she was just sort of staring around. Then she'd cuddle in to start to go to sleep, but her eyes were just open, like she couldn't shut off her brain. 

Eventually she got to sleep and then the 15 minute intervals started. And never stopped. I think she was awake for over 2 hours in the MOTN just playing with her hands, occasionally shrieking. 

She slept a lot yesterday, so I think she was a bit undertired and overtired at the same time going to bed, plus WW26 etc. 

So today I made sure she had her three naps as normal. She had 1.5 hours in the morning, and then I woke her, as she only usually does 30 minute naps. Then two other 30 minute naps as normal. 

Getting her to bed took effort, had to dream feed her by switching out the dummy for the bottle every few mins until she was full. 

She's gone down with her dummy, which I never allow, but when she's overtired she needs it. She's woken once so far 1 hour 20 minutes after bed, because she moved and lost the dummy. 

I'm hoping that I can take it off her in a bit, before I go to bed, as I don't really want to have to get up every time she loses it. But every 1.5 hours is better than last night so I'll take it! 

I think it would be manageable if it wasn't on the back of a week of no sleep for me! 

I'm just having a glass of wine, then I'm going to tidy up and go to bed! Cannot wait! 

x


----------



## megangrohl

I just wanted to say those who are attempting CIO be consistent. It only took 1 night for us and it worked like a charm and now she sleeps 12 hrs in her crib everynight and doesnt cry when going to bed. No more sleep crutches (rocking, feeding to sleep, bouncing, going in every 5 minutes etc because she expected it, no soother)

I felt so bad but we had to do it because she was waking up every 30 minutes making me, DF and her miserable and barely napping during the day. She needs sleep for development! Not all babies are good at sleeping, some have to learn but they also have to be ready. I tried CIO when she was 6 months old and she was not ready so we stopped right then and there.

We have had a huge transformation since doing CIO at 9.5 months. She sleeps 12 hrs at night and has 2 naps a day. Currently she has been sleeping for 2 hrs for one of her naps. I am thinking of transitioning her to 1 nap a day soon, but thats a whole other thread/topic.

It's certainly not for everyone. As Noelle has said, there is no one size fits all program for sleep training babies. If anyone needs any advice, let me know and I would be happy to help if possible. Hope everyone is doing OK!


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## mellyboo

I need some advice, since LO has been pretty crazy with her sleeping lately, were doing CC... My dr advised me to do this anyway he advised me to do it at night too but we co sleep and she wakes up so many times a night this is easy for me to just have her in my bed.. although i would love if she would sleep in her own bed but in other ways it totally doesnt bug me because i dont have to get up a million times... putting her to bed isnt an issue though.

So right now, im trying to put her on a secdule.. i've tried to be baby led on this whole thing but she isnt leading her self into a routine.. she led her bed time routine and that was about that.

I'm thinking Nap after 1 hour after she's been awake from the night and every 2 hours after that.. I have princess 20 min nap keep in mind.

what do i do?


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## Noelle610

mellyboo said:


> I need some advice, since LO has been pretty crazy with her sleeping lately, were doing CC... My dr advised me to do this anyway he advised me to do it at night too but we co sleep and she wakes up so many times a night this is easy for me to just have her in my bed.. although i would love if she would sleep in her own bed but in other ways it totally doesnt bug me because i dont have to get up a million times... putting her to bed isnt an issue though.
> 
> So right now, im trying to put her on a secdule.. i've tried to be baby led on this whole thing but she isnt leading her self into a routine.. she led her bed time routine and that was about that.
> 
> I'm thinking Nap after 1 hour after she's been awake from the night and every 2 hours after that.. I have princess 20 min nap keep in mind.
> 
> what do i do?

Hi dear, so sorry you are struggling! 4/5 months was the worst time for sleep for us. I think that's about the time I started this thread! I attempted some CC at around your LO's age and she just wasn't ready. My advice is to just continue doing what gets you the most sleep right now and reconsider sleep training in a month. 

I think getting your LO in a routine is a great idea. Some babies just thrive on them, including my own. You want to aim for 3 naps. Wake her around the same time daily. Try for the first nap 1.5 hours after waking and then every 2 hours after that. If you're still getting naps under 45 minutes, you may need to stretch her awake time a bit. Bedtime routine helps too. Good luck!


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## Noelle610

I think I've posted this chart before, but it's a great reference if you're looking to get your baby into a good sleep routine. It lists the ideal awake times between naps by age, feeding cut offs at night, etc. It's great and I wish I had seen it when my baby was younger. You have to tweak it to fit your baby, but it's a good starting point.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/11GHo4keUb2TVJUlSL1kD6HQcEgaNFBmzoQoOzcpcyas/edit?hl=en&authkey=CPXE1bsO&pli=1#


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## mellyboo

Im checking it out right now, i find the CC is the only way she will fall alseep and it only takes me a couple times of patting her head shhing her and she falls asleep.. so it is working .. i just never bothered to try before it wasnt the route i wanted to take but now it's the only thing that actually working..

when i layed her down for her nap 1 hour after waking up this morning she actually fell asleep no crying, she was down for about an hour and she woke up smiley and happy then 30 mins later shes rubbing her eyes again !


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## Noelle610

mellyboo said:


> Im checking it out right now, i find the CC is the only way she will fall alseep and it only takes me a couple times of patting her head shhing her and she falls asleep.. so it is working .. i just never bothered to try before it wasnt the route i wanted to take but now it's the only thing that actually working..
> 
> when i layed her down for her nap 1 hour after waking up this morning she actually fell asleep no crying, she was down for about an hour and she woke up smiley and happy then 30 mins later shes rubbing her eyes again !

If it's working for you and you think she's ready, by all means continue! I do have friends who had success with sleep training at a younger age, using CC and PU/PD.

She's probably really tired during the day because she's not sleeping well at night. It's easy to get into an overtired/undertired cycle. She's overtired from not sleeping at night, so she wants to nap frequently during the day. But then she's not tired enough to nap for very long. She takes short naps all day and then doesn't get enough awake time to sleep soundly at night. See what I mean?

Around this age, tired signs become unreliable and babies can be tired out of habit rather than a true need to sleep. I would continue trying to push that morning wake time to 1.5 hours and other wake times to 2 hours. She will be fussy at first, but distract her through it - going outside helps. I think you'll find she sleeps for longer. Try to limit individual naps to 2 hours and cap daytime sleep at 3.5 hours total. Don't let her make up for the lack of sleep at night by sleeping during the day. Give it a week and let us know how it goes!


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## mellyboo

She wakes up every 20 mins at night pretty much after midnight only, so she's a crap sleeper in general ... Maybe its all the lack of sleep that makes her constantly tired that chart is crazy and i've realised she is nothing where she should be at compared to that chart but its a work in progress!

She got cranky and was 10 min shy of 2 hours i laid her down she cried for a spilt second and i was no no its okay and i kissed her and gave her suckie... i went and did my hair came back and sleeping.. what in the actual frig.....

Either today is my lucky day or shes cutting me some slack...

Thanks for all your advice btw , i need some guidance i was feeling so so lost.


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## Noelle610

Oh gosh, she is way overtired! Sounds like you're are doing great mama. I've been there. I know it is awful. Keep us posted on the progress.


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## Shadowy Lady

so we're having weird nights again. She wakes up but not wanting to eat...just babbling away and "fake coughing" lol! Last night she did this at 3:30 am. I wanted to let her be but my DH went and gave her a bottle. I think we need to agree on this feed vs no feed during the day and not at 3:30 am!!

She continues to take naps on her tummy but sleeps on her back at nights. She did roll onto her tummy after the 3:30 wakeup though and slept till 8 am. 

I'm telling DH we need to not feed her in the middle of the night and let her resettle herself as she doesn't even cry! What do you guys think?


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## mellyboo

I will.. the weekend is always so screwy its the only time we actually spend time with OH.. but i think we might take it easy this weekend just so she can settle into something solid!


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## megangrohl

Shadowy Lady said:


> so we're having weird nights again. She wakes up but not wanting to eat...just babbling away and "fake coughing" lol! Last night she did this at 3:30 am. I wanted to let her be but my DH went and gave her a bottle. I think we need to agree on this feed vs no feed during the day and not at 3:30 am!!
> 
> She continues to take naps on her tummy but sleeps on her back at nights. She did roll onto her tummy after the 3:30 wakeup though and slept till 8 am.
> 
> I'm telling DH we need to not feed her in the middle of the night and let her resettle herself as she doesn't even cry! What do you guys think?

I think letting her settle herself back to sleep as long as she doesnt need to eat for sure is the best way to go. If DH keeps feeding in the middle of the night it will become a habit for sure.


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## mellyboo

Shadowy Lady said:


> so we're having weird nights again. She wakes up but not wanting to eat...just babbling away and "fake coughing" lol! Last night she did this at 3:30 am. I wanted to let her be but my DH went and gave her a bottle. I think we need to agree on this feed vs no feed during the day and not at 3:30 am!!
> 
> She continues to take naps on her tummy but sleeps on her back at nights. She did roll onto her tummy after the 3:30 wakeup though and slept till 8 am.
> 
> I'm telling DH we need to not feed her in the middle of the night and let her resettle herself as she doesn't even cry! What do you guys think?

I'd let her re settle... this is my big problem right now and i need to work on it.. she is awake every 20 mins at night not full of crying either its pretty much rolling around my bed and looking at me and babbling to her self!..


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## Noelle610

Shadowy Lady said:


> so we're having weird nights again. She wakes up but not wanting to eat...just babbling away and "fake coughing" lol! Last night she did this at 3:30 am. I wanted to let her be but my DH went and gave her a bottle. I think we need to agree on this feed vs no feed during the day and not at 3:30 am!!
> 
> She continues to take naps on her tummy but sleeps on her back at nights. She did roll onto her tummy after the 3:30 wakeup though and slept till 8 am.
> 
> I'm telling DH we need to not feed her in the middle of the night and let her resettle herself as she doesn't even cry! What do you guys think?

I totally agree with you. There's no need to feed a baby that isn't hungry at night - it will just become a habit. If she's not upset, she's likely fine. Charlotte does that babbling/fake coughing thing sometimes and usually around 3am. That's when babies enter a lighter sleep cycle and will often wake, but then soothe themselves back to sleep if they know how. I would just leave her be.


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## bananaz

*Sunnie* - Ugh, 36 hours without sleep and holding a sleeping baby for 10 hours on a plane? You poor thing! I'm glad Seren seems to be adjusting to being home pretty quickly though, and I hope she has a good night. Hang in there :hugs:

*mellyboo*- I agree with all of Noelle's advice so there's not much I can add, but I'm glad to hear you're seeing results with CC. It sounds like you are definitely on the right track and with a little tweaking of her nap schedule things will likely be much improved :)



We've had a rough couple days. The night before last LO did pretty well but I only got 3 hours of sleep because a medication I took kept me awake. Then she woke up with a 103F fever yesterday morning and it hovered around 101-102 for the rest of the day. Her daytime sleep was a mess (one of her naps was 8 minutes long!) and she was a little clingy but she didn't have any other symptoms so I decided to just give her ibuprofen and keep an eye on her. 

Then this morning she woke up at 1:30am with a temp of 104 :( I thought about taking her to the ER but I got the fever down quickly and after that she was actually in a pretty good mood so I decided against it. Unfortunately she wouldn't go back to sleep until almost 4am and she woke again at 4:30am. She resettled quickly that time though, but then she got up for the day at 5:45am :nope:

Anyway, I'm definitely taking her to the pediatrician today since she still has a fever. Hopefully the doctor will help and LO will be able to catch up on some sleep today.


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## Noelle610

Poor Elise and poor mama! Hope she feels better soon. I'm sure the illness is the reason for the poor sleep.


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## Boo44

Aww bananaz hope Elsie feels better :( they should check her urine if she has a fever but no other symptoms. But hopefully it's something much more simple like teething?

Mellyboo good luck with the CC!

Shadowy I would chat with your hubby in the day and agree not to feed if she's not upset. I would actually go mad with my hubby if he fed jack when I didn't want to! In fact I don't think he'd dare! :haha:


Jack has been having good nights touch wood. Still getting the odd early waking, but maye about 30 mins later than last wk. I'm putting him down by 7.15 and trying to be consistent with his naps. I've also put a blanket over his sleeping bag the last 2 nights so I'm wondering if he was a little cold...

I'm having random episodes of mini insomnia, haha! Like last night I was in bed by 10.30 but still awake at 11.30 (although think that was because I kept looking at the chat threads, lol!!). The other night I woke up at 2am and was awake for half an hour for no reason at all! So weird. Think it's because my sleep was disrupted when jack was waking early as I don't 'do' unpredictability well! So even though he seems a bit better, I'm still in the habit :)


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## bananaz

*Shadowy Lady* - If she doesn't cry then definitely let her be! She will let you know if she's hungry or needs you. Giving her food she doesn't want/need is likely to create more problems than it will solve.

*Boo* - I'm definitely going to ask about the urine, a UTI was one of the first things I thought of after reading about MiniKiwi's problems with poor Mia.

I'm glad to hear Jack is sleeping better, and I'm sure as he becomes more consistent you'll be able to relax and sleep better too!


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## minties

Bleh. It's 6:30am and Sophie has been yelling and blowing raspberries since 4:45am. 

I was doing weightlifting at a fitness centre last night so couldn't switch off until almost 1am. 

My OH has just stormed out of the bedroom after asking me why I don't make an effort to get her to be quiet! Yeah, really helpful, thanks dude. He's been asleep since 8 bloody 30pm!!!


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## Noelle610

minties said:


> Bleh. It's 6:30am and Sophie has been yelling and blowing raspberries since 4:45am.
> 
> I was doing weightlifting at a fitness centre last night so couldn't switch off until almost 1am.
> 
> My OH has just stormed out of the bedroom after asking me why I don't make an effort to get her to be quiet! Yeah, really helpful, thanks dude. He's been asleep since 8 bloody 30pm!!!

Men, I tell you!


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## izzlesnizzle

I think I might have to join in if that's ok? Yet another dreadful night. LO isn't eating well in the day and has started waking up for night feeds again. She hasn't had a night feed since 6.5 mths. I cant go back to them after all this time, this is so unfair!!! She cried non stop for 1.5 hours from 4.30am. Refused to be settled. Tried everything until we decided ok shes hungry, will have to make a bottle. She drained the whole thing then went back to sleep for 30 mins. I feel so hopeless about sleep right now, along with feeling totally hopeless about weaning, I could cry :-(


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## Boo44

Aww izzlesnizzle you've come to the right place. You'll get some good advice from some of the girls here! How much milk does she take in the day? I've often struggled with getting my LO to take his milk and recently he was taking tiny amounts frequently. So I dropped one bottle completely. He's only on 3 per day now and takes much more each time. It's so much better x

I need a strong coffee today as he decided to cry out (dream I think) at midnight, then I woke to him babbling at 5.05. He did self settle but then wanted to be up for the day at 6.10 :(
The night before he sttn 7.15 until 6.50. He is soooo unpredictable right now and my sleep is really suffering (not lo's fault, it's me that can't relax!)

He's just started really babbling 'rarara' 'gagagaga' 'dadada' two days ago. Like alllll the time. And he's so frustrated sitting now, but can't work out how to move. Am wondering if all this stuff is why his sleep has gone a bit skewy


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## izzlesnizzle

Thanks Boo. Shes on 3 bottles a day now. She dropped the 11am bottle a couple of months back, so I give a little yogurt instead and a drink of water.

But lately shes gone off milk and only taking 3 or 4 ozs each bottle. I have tried putting milk in her food but the last week she wont have anything with lumps, that includes pasta, meat, anything that has any texture or lumps, she just retches and expels it all out then turns her head and starts licking the side of the highchair.

Meal times are really stressful and ive tried to not show how stressed im getting by singing, not looking at her, chatting away about anything other than food, eating with her etc. But shes just not interested. So much so shes waking for a bottle in the night now. Im totally gutted, she stopped night feeds 2.5 mths ago when she got going with solids.


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## izzlesnizzle

Boo44 said:


> I need a strong coffee today as he decided to cry out (dream I think) at midnight, then I woke to him babbling at 5.05. He did self settle but then wanted to be up for the day at 6.10 :(
> The night before he sttn 7.15 until 6.50. He is soooo unpredictable right now and my sleep is really suffering (not lo's fault, it's me that can't relax!)
> 
> He's just started really babbling 'rarara' 'gagagaga' 'dadada' two days ago. Like alllll the time. And he's so frustrated sitting now, but can't work out how to move. Am wondering if all this stuff is why his sleep has gone a bit skewy

And I know what you mean about the strong coffee! They are so unpredictable. One night they might sleep through then the next the night is all over the place. Ive maybe been doing what you're doing- waking up before she wakes up coz I cant relax. Yesterday she was up at 5.10am but I woke up at 5am thinking oh she hasn't woken up yet that's strange, 10 mins later waaaaaa!!! 

I guess if your LO has just learnt to babble then that could be the reason like you say, but its all just one big guessing game isn't it!


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## Boo44

I know what you mean about mealtimes being stressful. :hugs: sounds like you're doing all the right things though, at least you recognise that you shoul try not to act stressed. You deserve a medal! My LO is *touch wood* good with solids but has given me soooo much stress over milk. There have been so many times I've wanted to just not give him any as its all a fight! But he always gets over it eventually. I'm sure your LO will one day just decide she likes lumps again. And you'll never know why she didn't! I just blame teeth for everything too. Helps if I think there's a reason..... lol!


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## anti

Will try catch up with all the posts later... Just wanted to say ashlynn slept 6:30-5!! Amazing for her! :)


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## Boo44

anti said:


> Will try catch up with all the posts later... Just wanted to say ashlynn slept 6:30-5!! Amazing for her! :)

Yay!! X


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## Noelle610

izzlesnizzle said:


> I think I might have to join in if that's ok? Yet another dreadful night. LO isn't eating well in the day and has started waking up for night feeds again. She hasn't had a night feed since 6.5 mths. I cant go back to them after all this time, this is so unfair!!! She cried non stop for 1.5 hours from 4.30am. Refused to be settled. Tried everything until we decided ok shes hungry, will have to make a bottle. She drained the whole thing then went back to sleep for 30 mins. I feel so hopeless about sleep right now, along with feeling totally hopeless about weaning, I could cry :-(

:hugs: mama, you're in the right place. We've been there.

In terms of milk, do you offer before solids? I try to give bottles an hour or so before meals. The milk has more calories than most solids and you don't want baby filling up on fruits and veg and then not wanting milk.

How established on solids is your LO? You may want to add some foods high in fat and protein, like yogurt, avocado, eggs, cottage cheese, etc. 

I totally understand the stress over mealtimes. Like Boo, my LO has never liked milk and it can be a struggle.

Right there with both of you ladies on hating the unpredictability!


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## Noelle610

anti said:


> Will try catch up with all the posts later... Just wanted to say ashlynn slept 6:30-5!! Amazing for her! :)

Fabulous!:happydance:


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## Shadowy Lady

Anti - awesome! Hope it continues for you guys :)

Boo - hugs to you hun! I hate unpredictability too and dealing with the same thing as you. Coffee saves my sanity as well.

DH and I agreed before bedtime not to feed Sofia before 1 am and to move the time by 30 min each night (Ferber night weaning). She had taken all naps on her tummy yesterday and rolled to her tummy as well as we put her down for the nights. She didn't wake up till 2:00 am though so we did feed her. She only took 2oz and then slept till 7 am which is when she had pooped! First time she had slept on her tummy all night!

I still am convinced she's not needing the feed as 2oz is barely anything. I'm thinking to just move the feed time forward till she doesn't wake up for it anymore.

On the bright side, I'm making progress with my sleep meds weaning. I'm now down to 1/2 pill every other night and still fall asleep quickly the nights I don't take them. Hoping to be completely off of them by end of this month.

Hope you ladies have a fab weekend! I'm drinking my big mug of coffee here re-watching Skyfall with hub while Sofia naps :D


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## aliss

I lost count at 10 wakeups for Philippe and 3 for Alex (he's getting sick), I swear I'm gonna end up in the looney bin one day ;) :rofl: Maybe next week...


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## Noelle610

aliss said:


> I lost count at 10 wakeups for Philippe and 3 for Alex (he's getting sick), I swear I'm gonna end up in the looney bin one day ;) :rofl: Maybe next week...

I cannot imagine dealing with TWO different small humans waking in the night!


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## bananaz

*Shadowy* - I agree, if she's only taking 2oz then I don't think dropping that feeding should be a big deal. It sounds like you're on the right track :)

*aliss* - Good lord, woman, how are you even posting smiley emoticons after a night like that? I guess having Philippe in your bed already makes thing more bearable?



We had a better night despite that fact that LO was so, so sick yesterday - her fever kept spiking to 105+ every time the Tylenol started to wear off and she spent the entire day glued to me like she was afraid she might float off into space if she let go. Of course I hated seeing her so miserable but it was actually really nice to be able to sit and cuddle with her instead of constantly chasing her around. 

Anyway, she went to bed at 6:45pm and didn't get up until 4:30am when I gave her ibuprofen and nursed her, at which point she promptly threw up. The second round stayed down though and I got her back to sleep around 5:30, and then she slept until almost 7am. She seems to be feeling somewhat better this morning but we'll see how the day goes...


----------



## jowen

At 6 months I sleep trained, he now sleeps from 8 hours straight and naps too. In his crib, no soother - just white noise.
Yes, sleep training is hard, but within a week mine went from up 3X per night to sleeping through and napping on his own.
good luck


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## mellyboo

She only woke up 3 times last night woohoo!!!


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## MiniKiwi

Bananaz, did you get her to the doctor? Hope she feels better soon :hugs:

Just popping in here for a wee rant I guess. Mia went to sleep at 6pm, woke at 7, 7:30, 8, 9:45pm AND STAYED UP UNTIL 1am FML. Then got up for the day at 5am. I'm fucking sick of it :nope: what am I doing wrong?


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## Boo44

MiniKiwi said:


> Bananaz, did you get her to the doctor? Hope she feels better soon :hugs:
> 
> Just popping in here for a wee rant I guess. Mia went to sleep at 6pm, woke at 7, 7:30, 8, 9:45pm AND STAYED UP UNTIL 1am FML. Then got up for the day at 5am. I'm fucking sick of it :nope: what am I doing wrong?

:( it's the worst thing when nothing we do makes any difference!! I really hope it was just a one off night, and things are at least a bit better tonight

Today jack's had different naps than usual and I've just been out and about with him and enjoying ourselves. I've decided what's the point keepin to a fantastic schedule when his sleep is going backwards anyway?!?

NB - I'm sure I will change my mind about this by tomorrow. But feels good to rebel for once :D


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## MiniKiwi

Boo44 said:


> NB - I'm sure I will change my mind about this by tomorrow. But feels good to rebel for once :D

Ha ha! This made me smile. and thanks, this is how every night is for the last at least 6 weeks but she usually waits until 6am to wake up :coffee:


----------



## bananaz

MiniKiwi said:


> Bananaz, did you get her to the doctor? Hope she feels better soon :hugs:
> 
> Just popping in here for a wee rant I guess. Mia went to sleep at 6pm, woke at 7, 7:30, 8, 9:45pm AND STAYED UP UNTIL 1am FML. Then got up for the day at 5am. I'm fucking sick of it :nope: what am I doing wrong?


Yeah, I took her to the pediatrician yesterday and everything looks good aside from her crazy high fevers and feeling crummy. The doctor thinks it's probably roseola so we just have to wait it out, but if she starts puking on a regular basis or the fever isn't gone by tomorrow then I'll be bringing her back in to get checked for a UTI.

I'm sorry you had such a terrible night :( What does she do when she wakes - is she hungry or grumpy or just want to play? And how do you typically get her back to sleep? I very much doubt there's anything you're doing "wrong"! :hugs: Is her dad around to help out at night?


----------



## izzlesnizzle

Noelle610 said:


> izzlesnizzle said:
> 
> 
> I think I might have to join in if that's ok? Yet another dreadful night. LO isn't eating well in the day and has started waking up for night feeds again. She hasn't had a night feed since 6.5 mths. I cant go back to them after all this time, this is so unfair!!! She cried non stop for 1.5 hours from 4.30am. Refused to be settled. Tried everything until we decided ok shes hungry, will have to make a bottle. She drained the whole thing then went back to sleep for 30 mins. I feel so hopeless about sleep right now, along with feeling totally hopeless about weaning, I could cry :-(
> 
> :hugs: mama, you're in the right place. We've been there.
> 
> In terms of milk, do you offer before solids? I try to give bottles an hour or so before meals. The milk has more calories than most solids and you don't want baby filling up on fruits and veg and then not wanting milk.
> 
> How established on solids is your LO? You may want to add some foods high in fat and protein, like yogurt, avocado, eggs, cottage cheese, etc.
> 
> I totally understand the stress over mealtimes. Like Boo, my LO has never liked milk and it can be a struggle.
> 
> Right there with both of you ladies on hating the unpredictability!Click to expand...

This thread is better than speaking to the HVs who just look at me blankly and say "perhaps shes just an early riser" with a smile on their faces, to which I stare blankly back!

Well, LO was well established on solids until a week ago. She was eating anything and everything. 3 good meals a day. Her milk started getting less then she decided no more food either. Her milk intake has got a bit better last couple of days but still a bit hit and miss but I had a thought today- I think shes just finished a growth spurt and they are meant to go off their food at the end of a growth spurt. Shes noticeably taller this week and just moved into her 9-12 clothes.

Here's what I do every day:

7am (or whatever time she wakes) 8oz bottle (takes 3-4 oz) I put ther rest in her breakfast at 8am

11- small yogurt for a snack (she dropped this bottle weeks ago)

12- lunch, usually something like scrambled eggs on toast, hummus and pitta etc and a fruit dessert

3pm- bottle (anything from 3-6oz) or this week none

4.30pm- dinner, usually a protein like meat or fish, she has a different one every day, pork, beef, chicken, cod, salmon

6.30pm- bedtime bottle (6/7oz)

7pm- bed. This week has been waking at 9pm, then it can be any old random time in the night and be awake for 1.5-2 hours at a time. 

Naps- 8.30am-10am, 1.30-2.30 but today she only had an hour in the morning and 40 mins for afternoon so im not holding out much hope for sleep tonight! Shes going to bed early tonight, shes been very whingy most of the day.


----------



## MiniKiwi

bananaz said:


> MiniKiwi said:
> 
> 
> Bananaz, did you get her to the doctor? Hope she feels better soon :hugs:
> 
> Just popping in here for a wee rant I guess. Mia went to sleep at 6pm, woke at 7, 7:30, 8, 9:45pm AND STAYED UP UNTIL 1am FML. Then got up for the day at 5am. I'm fucking sick of it :nope: what am I doing wrong?
> 
> 
> Yeah, I took her to the pediatrician yesterday and everything looks good aside from her crazy high fevers and feeling crummy. The doctor thinks it's probably roseola so we just have to wait it out, but if she starts puking on a regular basis or the fever isn't gone by tomorrow then I'll be bringing her back in to get checked for a UTI.
> 
> I'm sorry you had such a terrible night :( What does she do when she wakes - is she hungry or grumpy or just want to play? And how do you typically get her back to sleep? I very much doubt there's anything you're doing "wrong"! :hugs: Is her dad around to help out at night?Click to expand...

You can also tell a UTI by the smell and colour of her wee. If you're concerned it's a possibility, you can sit with her nappy off/open and tickle her lower tummy with your finger nail, she'll probably wee and you'll likely be able to tell from her reaction and urine. Hope she gets better asap! So nasty having a sick LO.

Thankfully my OH is really helpful, he often does the motn parties with her. It's just impossible, I've tried staying in the dark and walking her, feeding her, cuddling and she just yells and kicks until I bring her into the lounge with the lights and her toys. She'll crawl around, play happily etc. for 2-4 hours and then start rubbing her eyes and goes back to sleep with a bit of rocking. This morning I was so mad I asked her why she couldn't be like a normal baby :blush::nope:


----------



## bananaz

MiniKiwi said:


> You can also tell a UTI by the smell and colour of her wee. If you're concerned it's a possibility, you can sit with her nappy off/open and tickle her lower tummy with your finger nail, she'll probably wee and you'll likely be able to tell from her reaction and urine. Hope she gets better asap! So nasty having a sick LO.
> 
> Thankfully my OH is really helpful, he often does the motn parties with her. It's just impossible, I've tried staying in the dark and walking her, feeding her, cuddling and she just yells and kicks until I bring her into the lounge with the lights and her toys. She'll crawl around, play happily etc. for 2-4 hours and then start rubbing her eyes and goes back to sleep with a bit of rocking. This morning I was so mad I asked her why she couldn't be like a normal baby :blush::nope:


Thanks for the tip, I've just been sniffing her wet diapers but that sounds like a better method, haha :blush:

Mia's been having these MOTN parties regularly for a while now, hasn't she? How are her naps during the day? I wonder if it might be worth trying a week where you and your OH commit to keeping her in the room with the lights off no matter what and see if things improve. I know it's not easy to keep your resolve when your kid is yelling at you (see my bazillion posts on this thread where I gave in and fed Elsie to sleep despite the fact that she wasn't really hungry and I was trying to night wean her :haha:) but at least for me having a set time limit - say 5 days - makes it a lot easier to stick to a plan.


----------



## aliss

Noelle610 said:


> aliss said:
> 
> 
> I lost count at 10 wakeups for Philippe and 3 for Alex (he's getting sick), I swear I'm gonna end up in the looney bin one day ;) :rofl: Maybe next week...
> 
> I cannot imagine dealing with TWO different small humans waking in the night!Click to expand...




bananaz said:


> *Shadowy* - I agree, if she's only taking 2oz then I don't think dropping that feeding should be a big deal. It sounds like you're on the right track :)
> 
> *aliss* - Good lord, woman, how are you even posting smiley emoticons after a night like that? I guess having Philippe in your bed already makes thing more bearable?

I gave up in early 2011 so I can't do much but laugh these days!!!!!! :baby:

But since Alex is so sick, he's been asleep since 10am (it's 2pm), and Philippe has napped well, so I've been "CHILDLESS" today, just sitting on my ass eating goldfish crackers and watching trash on national geographic channel (locked up abroad) while BnBing.... blisss!!!!


----------



## MiniKiwi

She naps well these days, 2 naps for 1-2 hours :happydance:

But I know you're right and that keeping her in the dark is a good idea, show her we have zero tolerance for motn parties! It's hard as she's in the same room as us and means we both have to be awake the whole time and she cries until she gets to play with the lights on :dohh: It's seriously hard to remember how long it's been happening, I remember one night recently when she didn't do it. I think it's been going on for nearly 2 months lol!!! Sometimes I get up with her in the night and don't remember, OH tells me :wacko: Every night is a blur

I usually have a better attitude and I find that helps me, reminding myself it can't possibly last much longer. But today I just wanted to scream FFS GO TO SLEEP!

Oh and just sniffing the nappies is fine, you might be able to see an odd colour if she's in disposables too. If you're aware of the possibility of a UTI, you should be fine. In our case, we had no idea what was going on and trusted the doctors knew what they were doing...which is why she ended up hospitalised :( makes me want to cry thinking about what an awful time that was


----------



## aliss

motn parties are THE WORST.... worse than a newborn crying with gas all night, lol, it's like "ummm don't you dare laugh or smile at me!! what's your problem? No problem? Then why are you up!!!! What's yoru excuse!!!"


----------



## MiniKiwi

aliss said:


> motn parties are THE WORST.... worse than a newborn crying with gas all night, lol, it's like "ummm don't you dare laugh or smile at me!! what's your problem? No problem? Then why are you up!!!! What's yoru excuse!!!"

It really is tough lol. I asked her last night what her problem was! Haha

Enjoy locked up abroad, love that show :)


----------



## aliss

Haha! :) I'm watching the food network now. I was supposed to make pizza tonight but my food processer is in the bedroom and the baby is sleeping. I'd rather go without food than wake the sleeping baby!!!


----------



## Noelle610

Izzles, maybe you could try doing bottles before her meals and switch it up a bit? See if that helps. It generally sounds like her schedule is pretty good, so I think she's just going through a sleep regression that will pass. I totally relate on HVs being useless... I had to switch pediatricians because they kept dismissing Charlotte's poor sleep as "normal" when in actuality it was related to a medical issue that was resolved with some real help. Ugh.

MiniKiwi, those MOTN parties are the WORST! They leave me feeling so frustrated. Do you have room to move Mia into her own space? That might help.

Aliss, "Locked up Abroad" terrifies me! I have this weird phobia that someone is going to plant drugs on me the next time I travel and I will be locked up in a Cambodian prison. Off topic, but still.


----------



## Beankeeper

Can I join? We've hit the 4 month sleep regression hard! Annoyingly we had just reached a point where he was down to 1 or 2 wake ups & but now he's just not sleeping! It's like he just doses & wake/stirs every 10-20 mins.
It's a good job he's so cute & easily forgiven in the morning!


----------



## Noelle610

Beankeeper said:


> Can I join? We've hit the 4 month sleep regression hard! Annoyingly we had just reached a point where he was down to 1 or 2 wake ups & but now he's just not sleeping! It's like he just doses & wake/stirs every 10-20 mins.
> It's a good job he's so cute & easily forgiven in the morning!

:hugs:

4 months is the WORST.


----------



## socitycourty

Failed miserably at CIO last night. Only lasted 10 minutes. I did try to let her settle herself for a nap while I took my shower this morning (less than 10 minutes) she screamed and cried the entire time.

My jerk DH is in las vegas right now for a bachelor party and here I am walking around the house crying because I'm so tired and annoyed. URGH


----------



## Noelle610

socitycourty said:


> Failed miserably at CIO last night. Only lasted 10 minutes. I did try to let her settle herself for a nap while I took my shower this morning (less than 10 minutes) she screamed and cried the entire time.
> 
> My jerk DH is in las vegas right now for a bachelor party and here I am walking around the house crying because I'm so tired and annoyed. URGH

I think you're going to need support when you do CIO. Would you DH help you? Or perhaps your mom, if she's close by?


----------



## Shadowy Lady

Bananaz - hope Elsie is feeling better now...I may have missed it but did you take her to the doctor already?

Beankeeper - ughhh I hated the 4 months sleep regression! It didn't last long for us and hoping it will be the same for you :)

Socity - you should def do CIO when DH is there to support you. I have never attempted it but we did a gentle CC with Sofia before and my DH was actually the main person in charge. It's too hard for mothers to hear baby cry AND do it alone.

Sofia woke up last night at 12 and was too upset to go back down...after hearing her cry for a bit, DH went to give her the bottle which of course she only took 2oz of before falling asleep. She them proceeded to sleep till 5:30 am when she woke again crying/fussing. I gave it 10 mins and she actually fell asleep and ended up sleeping till 8:30 am (which was I guess 9:30 am coz of time change).

I'm lost as to what to do about this night weaning. The time she wakes up is soooo different each night (anytime between 12 to 5 am or she actually even sttn) that I'm not sure what to do :/ she eats such little amount too that I know she can go without it. How would you guys go about this? Should I set the feeding time earlier maybe midnight and increase from there? 

I'm just not sure how to proceed at this point :/


----------



## socitycourty

My mom was here in the day but stupidly I thought I would be better off alone doing CIO, with no one else in the house and the quiet, etc.

It is hard. It honestly goes against what I feel I should do which is go pick her up when she cries like that. I had no idea it was so hard. :(


----------



## izzlesnizzle

socitycourty said:


> My mom was here in the day but stupidly I thought I would be better off alone doing CIO, with no one else in the house and the quiet, etc.
> 
> It is hard. It honestly goes against what I feel I should do which is go pick her up when she cries like that. I had no idea it was so hard. :(

It is so hard doing cio. It depends on the type of cry but with my LO it just escalates to the point theres no way you could leave her to cio. I was so fed up at 5am the other morning after a night of her being awake at 2am for 2 hours, I thought right you can just cio, ive had enough of this (coz I was so tired by that point). I didn't last long, I couldn't let her get into such a state and ended up going to her soon after, as it wasn't just a whinge, it was a full on cry and getting worse.

I find cc works better for me but im never sure if shes teething at the moment and in pain, therefore I haven't attempted it lately but when I did cc at 6 mths, it took one night and she sttn for 7 weeks 7-7.......then teething started again and we're about week 3 into her not sleeping well again. I think my LO's problem is separation anxiety as it is at its peak at 9 mths.

I don't know what to suggest for you but good advice not to do it alone. Its better when theres 2 of you doing it, otherwise if you're on your own its easy to cave in very quickly.


----------



## mrsbeano

socitycourty said:


> My mom was here in the day but stupidly I thought I would be better off alone doing CIO, with no one else in the house and the quiet, etc.
> 
> It is hard. It honestly goes against what I feel I should do which is go pick her up when she cries like that. I had no idea it was so hard. :(

When Quinn is fighting a nap and I leave him to it I go and do a job. It's horrid listening to it but just having a listen every 5 minutes is less heart breaking. 

I think if you do go for it the effects are very fast. Something like 3 days. Good luck x


----------



## Shadowy Lady

OMG we had another sttn!!! She went to bed late (time change confusion) so she was asleep by 7:20 pm. Stirred a bit at 12:30 am which woke me up but she stayed down. It's 7:40 am here and she's still asleep!

Woulda been better if I hadn't stayed up for 1.5 hours after her stirring but WHO CARES! All that can be fixed once the sttn is permanent :D


----------



## bananaz

This damn fever just won't go away :nope: She's been whimpering in her sleep off and on all night but didn't actually start crying around 3am. I went in and gave her ibuprofen and spent 20 minutes patting her but she wouldn't settle. Finally I fed her and she immediately vomited all over, so then I had to change her clothes, give her more medicine, and feed her again.

Now she's been asleep for 40 minutes and I've been up googling all the terrible things that could be wrong with her. ugh


----------



## bananaz

Shadowy Lady said:


> OMG we had another sttn!!! She went to bed late (time change confusion) so she was asleep by 7:20 pm. Stirred a bit at 12:30 am which woke me up but she stayed down. It's 7:40 am here and she's still asleep!
> 
> Woulda been better if I hadn't stayed up for 1.5 hours after her stirring but WHO CARES! All that can be fixed once the sttn is permanent :D

That's awesome :) hope it "sticks" this time


----------



## Noelle610

Yay Sophia!

Bananaz, I can't remember - has she been to the ped yet? 

Charlotte isn't sleep so well the past week or so. She's very, very restless and crying out in her sleep. I'm tired. She is teething and has started cruising, so I'm sure it's all related. Just another phase to ride out!


----------



## bananaz

Noelle610 said:


> Yay Sophia!
> 
> Bananaz, I can't remember - has she been to the ped yet?
> 
> Charlotte isn't sleep so well the past week or so. She's very, very restless and crying out in her sleep. I'm tired. She is teething and has started cruising, so I'm sure it's all related. Just another phase to ride out!

Yep, she's been to the doctor twice now and everything they've checked so far has been clear. She's going in for a blood draw today :(

Sorry Charlotte isn't sleeping well. That developmental stuff always hits her hard, doesn't it?


----------



## Noelle610

bananaz said:


> Noelle610 said:
> 
> 
> Yay Sophia!
> 
> Bananaz, I can't remember - has she been to the ped yet?
> 
> Charlotte isn't sleep so well the past week or so. She's very, very restless and crying out in her sleep. I'm tired. She is teething and has started cruising, so I'm sure it's all related. Just another phase to ride out!
> 
> Yep, she's been to the doctor twice now and everything they've checked so far has been clear. She's going in for a blood draw today :(
> 
> Sorry Charlotte isn't sleeping well. That developmental stuff always hits her hard, doesn't it?Click to expand...

Eesh I'm sorry. That's tough. Hope it passes quickly.

It DOES hit her hard. As soon a I told a mom of another baby in her daycare that she was sleeping like crap, she was like, "Bet she's going to walk soon!". Everyone knows she's super sensitive. I've learned to live with it. She better take care of me in my old age :rofl:


----------



## socitycourty

bananaz said:


> This damn fever just won't go away :nope: She's been whimpering in her sleep off and on all night but didn't actually start crying around 3am. I went in and gave her ibuprofen and spent 20 minutes patting her but she wouldn't settle. Finally I fed her and she immediately vomited all over, so then I had to change her clothes, give her more medicine, and feed her again.
> 
> Now she's been asleep for 40 minutes and I've been up googling all the terrible things that could be wrong with her. ugh

:hugs: does she have diarrhea too? it doesn't seem like a tummy bug? maybe it's an influenze type thing, I know babies can get the high fever and vomit from that. did she have any shots recently?


----------



## bananaz

socitycourty said:


> :hugs: does she have diarrhea too? it doesn't seem like a tummy bug? maybe it's an influenze type thing, I know babies can get the high fever and vomit from that. did she have any shots recently?

No diarrhea and no shots. She got swabbed for the flu and it came back negative. She also got a catheterized urine sample done yesterday (that was lots of fun!) and it came back totally clear too. We did the blood draw this morning and the idiot tech didn't notice she was supposed to take two vials of blood instead of one so now we're supposed to go back in to get her poked again :growlmad: I don't know if I'm going to bother. I have a feeling we're going to go through this whole mess only for them to say "Hmm well I guess it's just a transient virus, she'll be fine."


----------



## mrsbeano

I think its no coincedence that our not so great sleepers are all on top of their milestones and they practise A LOT until they 'get it'

Quinn is 8.5 months and he's cruising, I kid you not. He also working on his next tooth so despite fact that after we've re night-weaned and let him CIO for his 4.30am waking, I don't expect the sttn to last very night. I am at least very grateful that we do get the occassional bout of sttn now so we're not constantly tired but for Quinn when there's anything going on, it always effects his sleep. 

So basically, Noelle... I know exactly how you feel!

Bananaz, I hope she feels better soon, poor baby... poor Mummy. 

Shadowy, I'm very pleased she sttn. She has come a long way since you first started posting on this thread


----------



## bananaz

Noelle610 said:


> Eesh I'm sorry. That's tough. Hope it passes quickly.
> 
> It DOES hit her hard. As soon a I told a mom of another baby in her daycare that she was sleeping like crap, she was like, "Bet she's going to walk soon!". Everyone knows she's super sensitive. I've learned to live with it. She better take care of me in my old age :rofl:

Hopefully once Charlotte does start walking that will be the last big disruption. You can just put in earplugs while she learns to talk in her sleep :haha: 

I've been lucky that developmental stuff hasn't been a big issue for Elsie. She had an off night or two when she learned to sit herself up and then again when she learned to pull herself up but cruising and crawling didn't seem to be an issue at all. Then again she was already sleeping really horribly so I don't know if I would've noticed a disturbance!


----------



## socitycourty

bananaz said:


> socitycourty said:
> 
> 
> :hugs: does she have diarrhea too? it doesn't seem like a tummy bug? maybe it's an influenze type thing, I know babies can get the high fever and vomit from that. did she have any shots recently?
> 
> No diarrhea and no shots. She got swabbed for the flu and it came back negative. She also got a catheterized urine sample done yesterday (that was lots of fun!) and it came back totally clear too. We did the blood draw this morning and the idiot tech didn't notice she was supposed to take two vials of blood instead of one so now we're supposed to go back in to get her poked again :growlmad: I don't know if I'm going to bother. I have a feeling we're going to go through this whole mess only for them to say "Hmm well I guess it's just a transient virus, she'll be fine."Click to expand...

:hugs:
i had my own idiot tech experience.........who caused me to have to take a 3 hour glucose tolerance test twice!

i hope she is better soon, poor Elsie!!


----------



## socitycourty

i agree, hadley has always been a bad sleeper but has hit most of her milestones early and learns fast....


----------



## MiniKiwi

ugh I'm sorry bananaz, hope you get to the bottom of it and little one starts feeling better soon :hugs:

Weird night here. Mia went to bed at 5:30pm, woke at 6:30, 7 and 7:45 needing walking back to sleep. She seemed so awake at 7:45pm that I decided to see if she'd have her motn party early tonight and got her up. She stayed up until 10pm and then slept 5.5 hours happydance:) but then had a motn party 3:30-5am and went back to sleep until 7am. 

I'm so unsure what to 'try' on her tonight. Maybe a later bedtime :shrug:

How are you going, Socity? Hope the sleep training is going well for you two, you both deserve some rest :hugs:


----------



## socitycourty

well the time change has really f'ed things up here! MOTN party again last night............i'm at a loss


----------



## MiniKiwi

How long are her motn parties? They're just the absolute worst, aren't they?


----------



## bananaz

socitycourty said:


> well the time change has really f'ed things up here! MOTN party again last night............i'm at a loss

:hugs: I'm sorry, that's so hard. Hopefully she'll adjust soon

I've actually been wondering how the rest of you ladies are handling the time change - are you keeping the same bedtime and trying to get your LOs to adjust or are you moving bedtime an hour later? My plan is to just let her body stay on the same schedule and move bedtime later. It's a bummer losing that evening time but being able to wake up after 7am is awesome :happydance:


----------



## socitycourty

last night's was over an hour. Not as bad as some, but I was like OMG just let me sleep! i can't take it!


----------



## bananaz

MiniKiwi said:


> ugh I'm sorry bananaz, hope you get to the bottom of it and little one starts feeling better soon :hugs:
> 
> Weird night here. Mia went to bed at 5:30pm, woke at 6:30, 7 and 7:45 needing walking back to sleep. She seemed so awake at 7:45pm that I decided to see if she'd have her motn party early tonight and got her up. She stayed up until 10pm and then slept 5.5 hours happydance:) but then had a motn party 3:30-5am and went back to sleep until 7am.
> 
> I'm so unsure what to 'try' on her tonight. Maybe a later bedtime :shrug:
> 
> How are you going, Socity? Hope the sleep training is going well for you two, you both deserve some rest :hugs:


Aw it's both funny and sad how MOTN parties have just become the norm for you guys and you're trying to schedule them now! Poor mama, I really hope things improve soon :hugs:


----------



## Noelle610

Those MOTN parties suck. Socity and MiniKiwi, what are their routines like during the day?

MrsBean, so, so true on the milestones! Charlotte seems to hit a lot of those physical milestones early. I sometimes wonder if it's because she's small and she can pull herself around easier than a bigger baby. Isn't Quinn a wee one too?


----------



## MiniKiwi

Is an hour party a good night then? Mia is up between 2 and 4 hours a night, it's at the point that she's just not getting enough sleep.

Noelle, I think she does really well in the daytime, especially as she was a non-napper for some months. She wakes around 6/7am and naps roughly 9am until 10am and another hour, sometimes 2 at lunchtime. She's pretty exhausted by 5:30pm though and goes to sleep quite easily. I keep bringing her bedtime earlier but she's still waking every 30-60 mins after she's down for the night


----------



## Boo44

Jack is late with his physical milestones  I dread the day he crawls in his sleep! He's actually never even rolled in his cot!

We had a sttn 7.30pm - 7.30am yesterday! I am so happy that even if he goes back to his crazy 6am starts I can cling onto the hope that he may do it again. Nothing was any different yesterday at all so I've no idea why he did it. He actually took less milk than usual and his naps were both car naps AND he's getting a cold so technically it should have been a rubbish night! Will never understand children....!

I religiously stuck to his new earlier bed time for 2 wks an he continued to wake early. Last night he was 'late' to bed (ie his previous normal time) and he sttn. Now I'm wondering if he's one of those babies that earlier bed times don't work. If it makes no difference then I'll put him down earlier as that's better for us all. But I'm going to do a few nights of 7.30pm just to check what happens....!

We have our clocks going forward at the end of the month. I anticipate the first morning we may get a 'lie in'! But then I really can't work out what to do for bed time. If I put him down at the new 7.30pm that to him will feel like 6.30pm and I don't want to risk any funny business! Would appreciate advice xxx


Shadowy - yay for sttn!!!
Bananaz - poor Elsie having her blood drawn :( I think you're right though that they'll say it's a virus and it will eventually get better by itself. Really hoping that happens soon xx
MiniKiwi/socity - urgh MOTN parties suck, I have no advice but I do have hugs - huggggggg


----------



## Noelle610

Yay Boo! Some babies do better with a slightly later bedtime - Ferber was a big believer in this!

MiniKiwi, I wonder if you might actually try stretching her wake times a bit to 3 hours or so. Sometimes babies fall asleep due to habit rather than need. Those MOTN parties can be a sign of being undertired, interestingly enough.

Bananaz, I'm a crazy person and I woke Charlotte at 6:30am on Sunday to reset her clock. She's back to her normal schedule now :)


----------



## Boo44

Did your clocks go forward or backward? Am trying to work out how waking her early helped (I find it so confusing!)


----------



## bananaz

Noelle610 said:


> Bananaz, I'm a crazy person and I woke Charlotte at 6:30am on Sunday to reset her clock. She's back to her normal schedule now :)

That's a clever plan! I had considered gradually moving Elsie's bedtime earlier and earlier but that's a much more efficient solution.




Boo44 said:


> Did your clocks go forward or backward? Am trying to work out how waking her early helped (I find it so confusing!)

They went forward, so if you wake up at 6:30 then it will feel like you're getting up at 5:30. It's really confusing for me too, I always have to very carefully think it through every time a question comes up lol


----------



## MiniKiwi

Thank you, Noelle! We will definitely try doing that, I didn't know it could be due to undertiredness! Gah!!! She's just gone down for her first nap now so I'll try with the later one then put her to bed at 7pm tonight. Fingers crossed :)


----------



## Boo44

I still don't get it lol! So you wanted Charlotte to feel like she'd got up t 5.30, so that when her real bed time of 6.30pm came around she'd feel like it was 5.30? 

Eek have confused myself sorry for sounding so dumb!


----------



## Boo44

Mini the only thing I did think was maybe her second nap came around too early and therefore left a too long gap between that and bed time? I hope taking noelle's advice helps!


----------



## NotNic

Hiya. Sorry I've been lurking again :blush: Hope everyone is doing okay. Boo I think Finlay is someone who is unaffected by an early bed time. He normally wakes around 6.30am regardless of how early / late he went to bed or how many times he woke up or moved / cried in his sleep. He can normally chatter, play or doze for a bit before needing to get up. That said for the last few days he's been waking at 5am. By 6am its almost impossible to ignore the fact he is very much awake. Any ideas on what I can do? He was self night-weaned a long time ago so a bottle doesn't send him to sleep and he can play with his morning bottle so I don't think it's hunger. We've also got a blackout blind. He has got the hang of pulling himself up and can now crawl on all fours (though commando is still quicker), so in theory he should be better at sleeping again. :dohh:

Ps. I always remember the clocks changing as 'Spring forward, Fall back' :)


----------



## Boo44

Notnic I feel your pain! We had another 6am this morning despite a 7.30am yesterday :dohh: when he gets up at 6 he's so miserable and tired but I have no idea how to encourage him to go back over!
I basically could have written your post as my LO is also ok to chatter and 'play' for a while once he's awake. We have blackouts, I've been putting a blanket over his sleeping bag in case he's cold, I've propped his mattress slightly in case his cough wakes him etc etc. argh it's so frustrating

Mind you this morning his nappy had leaked. We use pampers active which have always been absolutely fine. He's in size 4 which should be fine it goes up to 40lb!!! But over past week or so we've had some (wee) leaks in the morning so I bought size 4+ and thought if solved it. But then major leak this morning too. Add to that he often dirties his nappy now when he wakes up (whyyyy all of a sudden?!) and I have no chance of him sleeping again. 

Do any UK ladies know which other nappies may be less likely to leak?


----------



## Sunnie1984

Boo we're having the same problems with pampers active. Gone up a size but no better. 

I think it's because she rolls round the cot in the morning, and because its full its bursting the lining and all the crystals are spilling out! 

I'm going to pick up some others today to try but no idea what!


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## Boo44

Sunnie same here! Plan to buy more today but don't know which to try I've never needed anything other than pampers!


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## NotNic

We use Pampers Baby Dry for nights. They are much better but you have to pull them up higher at the front Simon Cowell style (at least for boys!) otherwise you still get leaks. F had a phase of waking up with a pooey nappy as soon as he started sttn again, but they're back to breakfast time again now.


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## Noelle610

Boo, what I did was basically wake her at her normal time even though it was technically earlier because our clocks were moved forward. That way we could just go about her schedule as normal :)


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## Boo44

Thanks haha noelle I was obviously over-complicating it :)


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## mrsbeano

Noelle610 said:


> Those MOTN parties suck. Socity and MiniKiwi, what are their routines like during the day?
> 
> MrsBean, so, so true on the milestones! Charlotte seems to hit a lot of those physical milestones early. I sometimes wonder if it's because she's small and she can pull herself around easier than a bigger baby. Isn't Quinn a wee one too?

Quinn is little, he's very slight and I think it must have something to do with it. His nursery thinks he will be an early walker but as most of his cousins have been nearer to 18 months I'd be surprised. You never know. 

Boo - go Jack!! 12 hours of blissfulness 

I was informed that Quinn was up for about 90 minutes last night, chatting away but I slept through it. Poor DH didn't though, eek! He didn't want to get up for nursery this morning though he was doing his teenager impression!


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## Shadowy Lady

another sttn :happydance: but she was a bit restless at 2:30 am for 10 mins and went back to sleep on her own.....really hope this goes on for a but so i catch on sleep:sleep:


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## Noelle610

Still rough going on the sleep front here. Charlotte is waking 45 minutes after bedtime and then usually around midnight. Then waking early. Quick awakenings, though. I've been able to return to sleep relatively quickly, so I'm actually feeling okay! Usually just a quick cuddle and pacifier works to get her back to sleep. I'm pretty sure this is developmental and will pass.

I am a little nervous, however, because DH and I are supposed to have our first night away together this weekend. We're just going 30 minutes away, but my mom will be watching Charlotte. She usually goes to bed easily for a sitter, but I am concerned she will be upset if she wakes in the night and I'm not there. Fingers crossed she STTN for mom.


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## socitycourty

Noelle610 said:


> Still rough going on the sleep front here. Charlotte is waking 45 minutes after bedtime and then usually around midnight. Then waking early. Quick awakenings, though. I've been able to return to sleep relatively quickly, so I'm actually feeling okay! Usually just a quick cuddle and pacifier works to get her back to sleep. I'm pretty sure this is developmental and will pass.
> 
> I am a little nervous, however, because DH and I are supposed to have our first night away together this weekend. We're just going 30 minutes away, but my mom will be watching Charlotte. She usually goes to bed easily for a sitter, but I am concerned she will be upset if she wakes in the night and I'm not there. Fingers crossed she STTN for mom.

how nice for you guys! don't worry :)


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## socitycourty

last night was horrible..............i made her dinner cereal with whole milk (first time she's ever had it)

she was fine, we went to bed. she woke up later and was restless, so put her bottle in her mouth. well she vomited everywhere. it was even more scary because she was on her back and it was dark.

got her up, changed her and etc. had another small vomit 25 minutes later. then she fell asleep till 3 am, woke up and gagged/dry heaved.

she then slept again till 5:40 am when she had 2 oz of formula, sucked it down and looked for more so had 2 more oz.

then slept till past 8, had another 2 oz, then some baby food.

it was awful. she also had one poop, stinky and green but not diarrhea.

no fever, no more vomit. i'm inclined to think the milk wasn't sitting well, i'm so afraid she has a bug and i've caught it too....i can't imagine being sick like that and still taking care of her :(

horrible night :(


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## Noelle610

socitycourty said:


> Noelle610 said:
> 
> 
> Still rough going on the sleep front here. Charlotte is waking 45 minutes after bedtime and then usually around midnight. Then waking early. Quick awakenings, though. I've been able to return to sleep relatively quickly, so I'm actually feeling okay! Usually just a quick cuddle and pacifier works to get her back to sleep. I'm pretty sure this is developmental and will pass.
> 
> I am a little nervous, however, because DH and I are supposed to have our first night away together this weekend. We're just going 30 minutes away, but my mom will be watching Charlotte. She usually goes to bed easily for a sitter, but I am concerned she will be upset if she wakes in the night and I'm not there. Fingers crossed she STTN for mom.
> 
> how nice for you guys! don't worry :)Click to expand...

Thanks, I'm really excited! Our relationship really suffered at the height of my PPD and things are good now, so I think it's really important that we reconnect. Do you girls think C will be okay?


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## mrsbeano

She'll be fine Noelle - just call to reassure yourself but they don't care haha. As long as someone's looking after them that is!

Socity - sounds like a bug. You won't know until you try it again if she has an issue with whole milk although unless I'm being dumb (likely) then isn't it cows milk in formula anyway?

Just keep washing those hands and hope that you don't have norovirus because all 3 of us did and it sucked. Luckily it just made Quinn sleepy so we could get some rest in the end but wow, that bug is violent!


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## aliss

Last night was one of the worst. Toddler up 3x (5x, OH did 2x) with a cough and the baby up about 8-10x, love that 4 month regression.

BUT

Big progress today! He self-settled for the first time!!! :) Some of you girls might remember I always give advice to offer positive sleep associations like a music box, well, today, the music box worked!!! :) I just put him in his bed around nap time, turned it on, and went to go grab a coffee, came back, and he was asleep. I didn't even expect it!!!!

Ah Noelle, don't worry, it's your mother. Even if she does wake, she's with grandma. It's hard, but she'll be fine. And if she cries, just tell mom you don't want to hear about it. I'm doing this at 8 months too with Philippe, for a wedding. Easier said than done eh?


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## Noelle610

Aliss, that is wonderful! We had really good success introducing a lovey around 6 months. Very helpful for self-settling. Our pediatrician has recommended a night light, but I can't decide if that would be distracting.

Easier said than done, for sure :) But my mom is lovely and she is so good with Charlotte! Good thinking on telling my mom I don't want to hear about it if she's upset. Honestly, my mom is really excited for DH and I and probably would just lie if it didn't go well unless there was something to be concerned about. Is it bad that I'm looking foward to the uninterrupted sleep? :rofl: It's good you're Philippe at 8 months, right when the next regression comes!


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## aliss

I think it really depends on the baby eh? I know Alex found the light to be far too distracting (and typical DUH me took a few months to figure that out). Philippe seemed to like it.

Remember girl, you can't regress from crap! So, maybe having a bad sleeper has it advantages ;) Enjoy the night off and you better sleep that night or I'll come smack you!


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## Noelle610

aliss said:


> I think it really depends on the baby eh? I know Alex found the light to be far too distracting (and typical DUH me took a few months to figure that out). Philippe seemed to like it.
> 
> Remember girl, you can't regress from crap! So, maybe having a bad sleeper has it advantages ;) Enjoy the night off and you better sleep that night or I'll come smack you!

Agreed and I think Charlotte is similar (shocking) in that she would find it distracting.

Isn't that the truth. We are going through a "regression" of sorts right now, but it's honestly nothing compared to what I've experienced in the past. Easy peasy. 

I promise to sleep, even if I have to knock myself out!! :rofl:


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## MiniKiwi

Aww Noelle, sorry things aren't going as well with Charlotte. Don't worry about leaving her with your mom, it's your mom! and it's only one night anyway, if it doesn't go well, it doesn't go well but as long as Charlotte is used to your mom, I'm sure they'll both be absolutely fine!

Aliss, so sorry you're having such a rough time :hugs:

Socity :(! Hope you have a better night tonight and LO feels better soon

Thank you so much for the advice yesterday, Noelle :hugs: I actually think I might love you! We had the best night we've had in SO long! I stretched Mia's last nap out and put her to bed at 7pm, she did one of the usual wakings at 9pm but that's still a huge improvement and the best bit - she went back to sleep until 4:40am :happydance::happydance::happydance: Unfortunately she was up for the day then but OH and I both felt so rested when we woke up that we thought it was like 7am! I'm so happy, I really hope this continues.. One night without a motn party feels like we've won the lottery :haha:


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## Noelle610

MiniKiwi said:


> Thank you so much for the advice yesterday, Noelle :hugs: I actually think I might love you! We had the best night we've had in SO long! I stretched Mia's last nap out and put her to bed at 7pm, she did one of the usual wakings at 9pm but that's still a huge improvement and the best bit - she went back to sleep until 4:40am :happydance::happydance::happydance: Unfortunately she was up for the day then but OH and I both felt so rested when we woke up that we thought it was like 7am! I'm so happy, I really hope this continues.. One night without a motn party feels like we've won the lottery :haha:

I am SOOOO happy to hear that!!!! Sometimes small changes can make a big difference :)


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## Boo44

Noelle I think she'll be fine honestly. I worry myself so much when we leav jack. But tbh we do it quite a lot as both sets of parents absolutely love to have him sleepover! Well prob about once a month so not tons. But it's funny, my mum likes to be honest and give me blow-by-blow descriptions of when he woke and what he did (which my OCD self likes haha) whereas OHs parents alllllways just say 'oh he was an angel!' And leave it at that :haha:
Once they told me he slept 7pm until 8am. I was like whaaat?! Then I found out he slept until 6.30 then spent the rest of the time snoozing in their bed, lol x


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## gaiagirl

I think I need to join you ladies! I have never had a stellar night sleeper (he naps pretty well thankfully) but since 16 weeks he has been especially tough! He was down to two short wakings and I was happy with them, since we bedshare and they are very short and not disruptive. 

I started messing with bedtime, trying to turn his fourth nap into bedtime around 7 and it didnt go well. He would sleep one cycle then wake and I would try and get him down again. Sometimes it took and we would later transfer him to our room when we went to bed, other times it was SUCH a battle!

Now I am back to a later bedtime around 9, and I'm just going to bed then too since I'm so tired anyways. He usually does 4 hours sometimes 5 but then it's every 1-2 after that! 

I'm definitely not willing to try CIO at his age or anytime soon, so I'm hoping this is linked to th current wonder week phase?! He's always been sensitive to them!


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## NotNic

Finlay had his first two sleepovers last Saturday and the Saturday before. We had stuffy black tie does to go to. The first Saturday was not good. He started crying as soon as we arrived at the in laws. I text to see how he was and apparently he went to bed at 7.15 without any dinner. The feedback was he was 'inconsolable' and he slept through to 7.30am. He's NEVER gone to bed that early or w/o eating something since he's been on solids. Also I'm sceptical that he slept through and to that late. (MIL was a bit smug about that. Personally I think she didnt hear him). The following week he was at my mums. He fell asleep on the evening drive down and didnt wake up when she got him out of the car. She let him sleep until 11pm and then woke him to give him his bottle and change his nappy. It took mum three attempts to settle him and apparently he called out for 'Mama'. He then slept through to 6.15. Guess which one I believe? Mum said she felt bad when he was calling for me but at least we know he is using the word. :) Both Sundays though he was right as rain so if he was unhappy he was fine about it afterwards.


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## stardust599

Hi ladies

I've been posting in this since DS was born (8.5months ago!!) and I'm still not getting any sleep :-( We had a brief improvement but it's beyond ridiculous again. He always falls asleep with/after his bedtime bottle okay and sleeps a good 3/4hour stretch but then is up every 45mins or hour. I am sure there is nothing wrong with him except he wants to be cuddled/rocked/fed. We already co-sleep the second half of the night but TBH he doesn't sleep any better - he pulls my hair, scratches me, rolls over onto his tummy and I worry about it, eats my face (seriously) but cries if I move him to his own bed. I try to feed him to get him back to sleep but he just plays with it/blows raspberries etc. but cries when I take it away!

I am so tired. DD has been poorly and wakes twice a night. I can't go to bed when they do as I work Mon- Fri half days so have to be up at 6 and out by 7.30. Then afternoons are spent with the kids and getting dinner/bed organised and then I have to tidy and organised everything for the next day etc. so it's 9pm when I go to bed at DS is always up from 10pm onwards! Today it was so bad I could feel myself falling asleep at work and got myself a "talking to" from my manager.

The kids dad doesn't live with me, he won't take them to his house but does come over one night a week supposedly to help but he doesn't wake even if DS is screaming so I have to poke and shout at him to get up so I'm still awake anyway.

I live with my Mum who complains if either child makes noise and wakes her during the night plus the kids wake each other so my whole focus is trying to keep them quiet all night.

I notice that DS sleeps much better if I'm not in the room (if Mum isn't home I sleep on the couch) and will go 3-4hours at a time.

I already use white noise, he can put his own dummy back in etc. I'm out of ideas now :-( I've tried shush/pat and pick-up-put-down but all it does is wind DS up and he screams and stays awake longer! He's very spirited and has to have white noise and blacked out room to sleep.


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## NotNic

Not an expert at all but Finlay (who slept through until 4mth regression) suddenly improved at 38 weeks. I didn't do anything different. Only thing that changed for him was that he suddenly started being able to pull himself up and crawling improved. Like the others suggested, I gave him more floor time to practice and he started to get it. Apart from that I think it was his age that made the difference.

Have you tried not co-sleeping at all since he doesn't sleep much better? I was thinking if he can ss then giving him a chance to do it or fidget in his own space might help. Do you also jump to settle him straight away? My oh is a nightmare with interrupted sleep, so I used to rush to F with my eyes shut! I'm sure that made his hourly wake ups more regular. I have now turned the monitor down so I'm not easily disturbed by his grumbling and he either sleeps through or wakes 1-2 times. Could you try giving your lo a little longer to settle at the wkend when it doesn't impact everyone else so much? If you explain to your mum I'm sure she'll be a bit more supportive if its for everyone's long term sleep.


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## aliss

gaiagirl said:


> I think I need to join you ladies! I have never had a stellar night sleeper (he naps pretty well thankfully) but since 16 weeks he has been especially tough! He was down to two short wakings and I was happy with them, since we bedshare and they are very short and not disruptive.
> 
> I started messing with bedtime, trying to turn his fourth nap into bedtime around 7 and it didnt go well. He would sleep one cycle then wake and I would try and get him down again. Sometimes it took and we would later transfer him to our room when we went to bed, other times it was SUCH a battle!
> 
> Now I am back to a later bedtime around 9, and I'm just going to bed then too since I'm so tired anyways. He usually does 4 hours sometimes 5 but then it's every 1-2 after that!
> 
> I'm definitely not willing to try CIO at his age or anytime soon, so I'm hoping this is linked to th current wonder week phase?! He's always been sensitive to them!

Welcome to 4 months, it really sucks. It`s mostly a waiting game! Developmental stage + growth spurt. 6 weeks for my 1st, hope you get through it quick!


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## gaiagirl

Thanks...another 4 weeks!? Arg! 

Any thoughts on bedtime? I always read he should be in bed by 8 at the latest, so that's why I tried cutting the last nap and doing early bed but it really didnt help. And turned evenings into something unpleasant...

But a late bedtime?! Is it detrimental?!


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## aliss

Where are you putting baby to "bed" (ie. last nap/bedtime)? I know you are bedsharing. Is it your bed (the night bed) or somewhere else? 

We bedshare too (although he's just moved to an attachment crib 2 days ago) and I've always put him to bed in our bed once he got too old to be disturbed (about 8 weeks). Yes yes... I know it's nono ;)


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## Shadowy Lady

Attempting to catch up here:

Noelle - C will be fine! Enjoy your romantic night away with the hubs ;)

Socity - hugs to you hunnie...did you get her checked at the paediatrician?

Aliss - self settling is a great milestone. Hope 4 month sleep regression passes quick for you guys.

Minikiwi - that's awesome! Noelle does have the best advice...glad to hear Mia didn't have a MOTN and you and hubs are well rested.

Gaiagirl - 4 months sleep regression blows! But it may not last as long it really depends on baby/luck. It lasted just about a week for us (the worst of it which was 4x wakeup). We didn't bedshare though and we actually had her asleep by 7 pm. She was already way too tired by then. Now at 6 months she's asleep by 6:30-6:45 pm

Sofia woke up earlier from her second nap so she's been sleeping since 6:15 pm and on her tummy. I find that she naps better on her tummy but sleeps better on her back at night so I'm panicking a bit. Of course I'm not gonna go turn her back just hoping it will be a good night. I have months of sleepless-ness to catch up on :/


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## aliss

Yep my guy is in bed by 6:30-7 latest! Both of them! And I'll enforce that unitl they are 18 years old! And if they don't like it at 18, they can sleep at a friend's house, but get the hell out by 7!


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## gaiagirl

Lol. Id love an earlier bedtime eventually but it wasn't helping so I think I'll try and move it up slowly with the goal being 7:30 by 6 months...

Right now I'm so tired by 9 that I'm just going to bed with him. But before I was putting him in his crib (he naps in there and does great) until we went to bed then transferring to our cosleeper or just in bed. If I want to stay up, like maybe this weekend, I'll probably put him in his crib around 8:30...but I find he wakes after one sleep cycle in the crib and doesn't if we are in bed together.


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## socitycourty

called the nurse and she said she didn't really think it was viral, there was no diarrhea and really just the 2x of vomiting...said she thought it was the milk. also her second poo today was green with white chunks in it, I googled around and some people said that the milk doesn't digest well with some kids and they will have these problems.
she has been fine for the most of the day, she's taking formula and water and took some solids.

i'm hoping tonight is a lot better than last night and hoping i don't catch a bug now if it was really a bug!


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## anti

We been having a few rough nights and some early wakings so routine is all out the window... Just gonna ride through this and hope it sorts itself out soon. :(


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## Noelle610

Lots to catch up on!

Gaia, UGH 4 months! I'm sorry! I think it's a matter of waiting it out on this one. If you want her to go to bed earlier, I would try waking LO at 6am or 7am and shifting her entire schedule. 

Anti, sorry to hear about your recent rough nights. I'm right there with you.

Socity, I used to have that phobia too! It seems to have subsided with my anti-depressents actually, but I understand. Hope your LO feels better and that you both get some rest soon.

Stardust, I hate to see you here. You gave me such great advice when Charlotte was a newborn with bad reflux. It sounds to me like perhaps your little guy is falling asleep on his bottle? I might move it to the beginning of the bedtime routine and put him down awake to avoid that feed to sleep association. In terms of cosleeping, I think you have to do it full time or not at all or it can be confusing to baby. I'd work on putting down awake and seeing if that helps and then focusing on the rest of the night. I really hope this gets better for you.

Last night was really good for us at the beginning of the night! Charlotte took great naps and went down fast at 7pm. She didn't wake until 4am, which was lovely, but she puked at some point in the night and I had to change her and her sheets and soothe her back to sleep at that time. I get up around 5:30am for work, so I've been up since 4am. A little tired today.


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## bananaz

socitycourty said:


> called the nurse and she said she didn't really think it was viral, there was no diarrhea and really just the 2x of vomiting...said she thought it was the milk. also her second poo today was green with white chunks in it, I googled around and some people said that the milk doesn't digest well with some kids and they will have these problems.
> she has been fine for the most of the day, she's taking formula and water and took some solids.
> 
> i'm hoping tonight is a lot better than last night and hoping i don't catch a bug now if it was really a bug!

Hope she feels better and it's not contagious! :hugs:


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## bananaz

I haven't had a chance to read through and catch up yet but I just have to vent - I am so freaking sick of trying to get this child to take naps! I know she can self-settle because she's done it at bedtime for months and she's gone through two phases where she would do it for naps as well, so why does she act like she's in agony the moment I put her in her crib?? She's had separation anxiety since she was 4 months old so it's not like that's a new thing for her either.

I wouldn't mind it as much if it were just a matter of patting her to sleep for a few minutes but lately I've had to stand there for 40 minutes with my hand on her back repeatedly pushing her back down because every time I think she's asleep she immediately sits up wide awake and starts crying! My parents think I'm crazy trying to nurse or pat an almost-10-month-old to sleep and I'm starting to agree. I think I'm going to need to do CC soon, I am going out of my mind :wacko:


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## AngelUK

:hugs: bananaz
I am too much of a coward to even try putting our boys in their cots for their naps. They nap in their baby björn bouncies and I guess that is why they only nap for 30 mins unless I take them out in the pram, which I had been doing every day in the last 2 weeks (but the weather turned awful again so missed out today). But even then not always longer than 30 to 40 mins either. But since they do now on the whole sttn I guess the nap thing in our case is not tied in with their night night sleep. :shrug:


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## gaiagirl

Bananaz I haven't been there yet (please please I hope my LO gets it soon) but my friends first wouldn't self settle until 10 months, even with CIO. So I don't know, maybe she is close?! But maybe not...they are such little mysteries!


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## Noelle610

Bananaz that is so frustrating! We have our nap moments here too. I was trying to put Charlotte down on Sunday morning and she was really fighting it. I remember thinking to myself, "I'm so glad I don't have to do this every day!" since her daycare usually handles naps during the week. I give you credit.

When do you put her down? Maybe she's ready for a by the clock schedule? That way, her body would know it was naptime just as it knows it's bedtime when she goes to sleep.


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## bananaz

Thanks ladies. I've been trying to wait it out and gently encourage her to self-soothe but it doesn't feel like she's made any real progress. Things will improve for a few weeks and then we have a big backslide for months. It's so frustrating!

I am still going by awake times/sleepy cues at the moment, but now that you mention it maybe I should give a by-the-clock schedule another try since her morning wake-up time has finally become more consistent (though I probably just jinxed that, lol).


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## Noelle610

bananaz said:


> Thanks ladies. I've been trying to wait it out and gently encourage her to self-soothe but it doesn't feel like she's made any real progress. Things will improve for a few weeks and then we have a big backslide for months. It's so frustrating!
> 
> I am still going by awake times/sleepy cues at the moment, but now that you mention it maybe I should give a by-the-clock schedule another try since her morning wake-up time has finally become more consistent (though I probably just jinxed that, lol).

Yeah, I use wake times too when I'm at home and am getting a lot of nap refusals lately. My daycare does by the clock naps and they do vary slightly from day to day, but apparently she goes down super easily there and the naps tend to be longer (1.5-2 hours). I think I'm going to try a similar schedule at home and see if we get farther. I'll let you know how it goes.


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## Shadowy Lady

Bananaz - *hugs* I agree maybe a clock by clock schedule may work better. One of my friends is doing that with her 10 months old and she says she's having better luck now.

We had a good night. She was asleep by 6:15 (her naps were short yesterday) and she woke up at 5:30 am fussing only coz she had pooped. I changed her and put her back down and she proceeded to sleep until 8 am :D So she didn't even do the shuffle around 2 am. I also managed to sleep from 9:30 pm to 5:30 am and then took a nap after I changed her too....

I feel like a new woman these days. I've amped up my exercise routine too (which was already quite heavy). Trying not to think of the fact that we may soon be hit with 8 months sleep regression :/


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## bananaz

Shadowy Lady said:


> Bananaz - *hugs* I agree maybe a clock by clock schedule may work better. One of my friends is doing that with her 10 months old and she says she's having better luck now.
> 
> We had a good night. She was asleep by 6:15 (her naps were short yesterday) and she woke up at 5:30 am fussing only coz she had pooped. I changed her and put her back down and she proceeded to sleep until 8 am :D So she didn't even do the shuffle around 2 am. I also managed to sleep from 9:30 pm to 5:30 am and then took a nap after I changed her too....
> 
> I feel like a new woman these days. I've amped up my exercise routine too (which was already quite heavy). Trying not to think of the fact that we may soon be hit with 8 months sleep regression :/

Wow, 6:15pm-8am with only one waking after 11 hours?! That's amazing! Go Sofia! And I really need to start exercising again. Le sigh.


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## libbylou

I haven't been around in a while ladies, too much going on with life!
Sorry to see some of you are still having issues, but happy to see that some of your are seeing better sleep!

Anyway...quick update on us
The zoloft has been a huge game changer for me. I am happier, less anxious and sleeping better.
Ever has also turned a corner with her temperment and has become significantly less fussy and much happier in the last month or so, it seems to more mobile she gets, the happier she is.
Sleep was going really great...she was regularly taking 2 naps (hour long each) a day, going to sleep at 7:30-8pm, waking once or twice at night and then sleeping until 7-8am.
And then she got a tummy bug :( She ended up having diarrhea for 2 weeks and at one point it was so bad she was pooping every 1-2 hours...all night long :( She had awful cramps too so she would wake up and cry and squirm and roll around until she pooped and then of course I'd have to change her (and usually her sleeper because she kept exploding) and then try to convince her to go back to sleep after totally disrupting her when I changed her. She also started waking at 5:30-6am because she was so uncomfortable which sucked when we'd both been awake for most of the night.
She's been diarrhea free for 3 days, but we're trying to recover her sleep...she's been waking every 2-3 hours and its driving me nuts!


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## Noelle610

Libby yay! I really thought the medication would help you. It was life-changing for me and I was so resistant to it.

I'm sorry to hear sleep is a bit iffy for you again. Just be really consistent in the way you respond to the night wakings. She'll start sleeping again soon!


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## Boo44

Well we're having hit-and-miss times at the moment, it's just wake-up times so that I am grateful for as I do know it could be much worse. Yesterday we had a 6.50 then he was quiet as a mouse (pooping I think!!) until 7.20. Then this morning we had another 6am which just kills me. He woke up and started pooping again. I really think there's something wrong with this boy's poop habits haha! 

I took him to see health visitor to get weighed and he's now 22lb which means he's leapfrogged the 91st centile. She has advised me to stop his afternoon bottle now and replace it with a snack and water as its the milk that packs on the weight. So that will be him down to only 2 bottles, morning and evening. My baby is growing up! I'm hoping that a) it doesn't affect his sleep!!!!!! and b) maybe his crazy pooping habits will chill out without so much milk.... We can but hope!

Maybe he'll get less chubby when he's mobile.... Which is another thing, I am getting so sad that he's not crawling or really rolling, or basically doing anything :( I knooooow he will and he's got plenty of time, but he just seems crazy immobile to me. It's worrying. And the worst of it is that his little friends are so much happier now they crawl and can get around. Whereas my once happy little boy is currently so whingey all the time as I think he's frustrated......

Sorry for the self indulgent post!!!

Shadowy - way to go!!
Noelle - I've often wondered how day care get all the babies to nap at the same time?!?! Seems suspicious to me lol!
Bananaz - yes I think CC may work wonders for you and Elsie. I think 10 months is quite a big baby to have to rock and sshh although I know that might not be a popular comment!! (Eek). Anyway I hope that whatever happens something works out for her naps soon xx
Libby - fantastic that you're sleeping better! And hang in there, once they can sleep I think it's just a matter of waiting after an illness until they just start doing it again


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## Noelle610

We're having some weird early morning wake-ups here too, Boo. I can't quite figure it out... Our clocks moved foward an hour, so you would think she'd been sleeping in if anything! But this morning Charlotte wanted to be up at 5:30am. I didn't get her up until 6am, but she was a mess at daycare and already ready for a nap at 8am. This is going to sound crazy to some of you, but I wonder if I actually need to start capping her naps. She takes really long ones and I wonder if they're cutting into her night sleep.

My daycare only has 3 babies and they're all the same age, so I think it's relatively easy for them to get them to nap at the same time. Two (Charlotte and her little friend) have been there since they were just 10 weeks old. The third baby actually isn't the best napper. She goes down with the girls, but often wakes 20 minutes later. My daycare provider joked that "they spend a lot of time together" :haha:


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## Boo44

Aww how cute!! It's so nice for her to have such a good routine! We have good naps here too (touch wood!) he has 1.5hrs at 10am and then usually 1 hour at 3. I have to admit though that I do wake him at 4! Because I want him to go to bed as normal. I've often wondered if this is stupid or not lol!

It's 13.45 here now and he's in bed asleep. After his early morning we went into town and he went to sleep in his pram at 9.30 but woke after 45 mins. We've also got a healthy eating class at 3.30 (first time ever) which is bang on his usual nap time, so with both things added together I've just put him down at 1pm as he seemed tired. Who knows what will happen later....!

An early morning wakings can kiss my a*% !!


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## Noelle610

Boo44 said:


> Aww how cute!! It's so nice for her to have such a good routine! We have good naps here too (touch wood!) he has 1.5hrs at 10am and then usually 1 hour at 3. I have to admit though that I do wake him at 4! Because I want him to go to bed as normal. I've often wondered if this is stupid or not lol!
> 
> It's 13.45 here now and he's in bed asleep. After his early morning we went into town and he went to sleep in his pram at 9.30 but woke after 45 mins. We've also got a healthy eating class at 3.30 (first time ever) which is bang on his usual nap time, so with both things added together I've just put him down at 1pm as he seemed tired. Who knows what will happen later....!
> 
> An early morning wakings can kiss my a*% !!

No, I think it's smart! I try not to do naps after 4pm. I like our current 7pm bedtime. Charlotte has to get up no later than 7am anyway and I like that she has an opportunity to get 12 hours. I also appreciate my alone time with DH! We eat dinner together and watch TV. It's nice.

Those early morning just throw everything off!


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## bananaz

*libby* - I'm so glad to see that you're doing well, I've been wondering about you! I'm sorry Ever has been so sick but it's great that her temperament has been improving. Hopefully her sleep will get back to normal soon.

*Boo* - Honestly I can't blame you for wanting him to be mobile, I know that I was crazy impatient for months waiting for Elsie to start crawling because she was so fussy and frustrated all the time. 9 months is when a lot of babies start moving though so hopefully you guys don't have much longer to wait!

*Noelle* - Ugh, the early morning wakeups really are the worst. I can deal with being up for an hour in the middle of the night but when she decides to get up before 6am that just makes me want to cry. It's great that Charlotte has such a nice daycare situation. Out of curiosity, how did you find it? I'm thinking of putting Elsie in daycare part-time soon as kind of a transition since she'll have to go full-time this fall.


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## Noelle610

bananaz said:


> *Noelle* - Ugh, the early morning wakeups really are the worst. I can deal with being up for an hour in the middle of the night but when she decides to get up before 6am that just makes me want to cry. It's great that Charlotte has such a nice daycare situation. Out of curiosity, how did you find it? I'm thinking of putting Elsie in daycare part-time soon as kind of a transition since she'll have to go full-time this fall.

Honestly, we got really lucky. My neighborhood has a local list serve for families. It's mostly for buying and selling stuff, but once in awhile someone will advertise daycare openings. When I was pregnant, a woman sent out an email that she was opening her own in-home daycare. She had previously been a nanny and her mom had owned a daycare in the same neighborhood for 30 years. She had one infant spot open (the second was being given to a family friend) and she interviewed several families. She selected us! I'm not really sure why. It has been a god-send and she is amazing. I love that Charlotte gets to interact with other kids, but has one main provider that she's comfortable with. She is constantly buying and selling toys, so she always has new stuff as the girls (there are three babies now - all 9/10 months) grow. 

If your neighborhood or city has a family-oriented list serve, I'd start there. In-home daycares really vary, but if you can find one that is certified and has good references I think they can be wonderful. We started with part-time at ten weeks to prepare for full-time at three months and it worked well.


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## MiniKiwi

*Boo* - Mia crawled at about 9 months. She didn't get up on her hands and knees and rock or anything, she just took off one day. She's a much happier, less frustrated baby because of it. Jack will be crawling soon and I hope you notice the same change in his mood, it's lovely!

*Libby* - So nice to hear that Everette is doing better with her mood! I'm really hoping for you that her sleep goes back to how it was once she recovers from her illness, you really deserve that.

*Shadowy* - It sounds like you're having some great nights, what a gem Sofia is! Out of curiosity, what sort of exercise are you doing?

*Anti* - Sorry you're having such a rough time lately :hugs:

*Bananaz* - Having had a bad napper and a bad night sleeper now, I know for a fact that I'd rather a bad night sleeper! Fighting for naps might just be the most infuriating thing ever. We have definitely had so much more luck since Mia started having by the clock naps. I used to wait for her to rub her eyes or yawn and by that stage, she's turned into a nightmare to get to sleep. I get the same, that people think I'm nuts for walking LO to sleep and "letting" her wake up so much at night... So good luck if you try some CC :hugs:

*Noelle* - We know all about the early wakings here! They suck! I think you should just have a go at capping the naps if you think it could help. It's always daunting trying something new incase it ruins everything! But I hope you have some luck with it :)

We had the best night here! She had a motn party the night before last again but only a 1.5 hour one. I do think she's not tired enough at night times, so thanks again Noelle for that advice. Last night I couldn't keep her up any longer so at 6:40 she went to sleep, stirred at 10pm when I went to bed, woke once for a resettle cuddle only and then up for the day at 4am. I'm honestly so happy with that, if she would sleep a little later in the morning that'd be great but this is a huge improvement so I shouldn't complain :)


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## bananaz

MiniKiwi said:


> We had the best night here! She had a motn party the night before last again but only a 1.5 hour one. I do think she's not tired enough at night times, so thanks again Noelle for that advice. Last night I couldn't keep her up any longer so at 6:40 she went to sleep, stirred at 10pm when I went to bed, woke once for a resettle cuddle only and then up for the day at 4am. I'm honestly so happy with that, if she would sleep a little later in the morning that'd be great but this is a huge improvement so I shouldn't complain :)

Yay, so glad you're making progress! I hope you're able to get rid of that 4am wakeup call though. That's brutal, and I'm guessing once your body starts getting used to having longer stretches of sleep it's going to want to sleep past 4am lol :wacko:



I just put Elsie down for her first nap. I gave her the opportunity to nurse to sleep but she pulled off so I put her in her crib, said "Have a good nap" and left the room. She yelled for 10 minutes, threw all of her stuffed animals on the floor and then conked out! :happydance:

Also, she woke up a half hour earlier today than she did yesterday but she still fell asleep right at 10am so I think doing by-the-clock naps is definitely the way to go from now on.


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## gaiagirl

That's great Bananaz! 10 min of yelling seems pretty reasonable at her age, lol. 

I decided to swaddle LO again last night and have him sleep 'on his own' as in a few feet from me on the mattress. He still woke for a quick bite to eat every 2-3 hours but there was no thrashing and restlessness. All in all not terrible for my new standards, lol.


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## MiniKiwi

"Have a good nap" :rofl: I should try that with Mia, she'd lose the plot


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## bananaz

MiniKiwi said:


> "Have a good nap" :rofl: I should try that with Mia, she'd lose the plot

Haha, I wasn't sure what to say, but it felt like some kind of farewell was appropriate. Judging by the way she screamed and launched herself at me, she did not appreciate my choice of words :blush:


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## Noelle610

Gaia, I remember going through the 4 month sleep regression and being oh so grateful for a 2-3 hour solid stretch. It's okay! It won't last forever :hugs:

MiniKiwi, I am thrilled that my advice helped! I always worry I'm going to advise something that will totally mess up a babies sleep, since they are all so different... It's good to know my instincts were right with that little tidibit :)

Bananaz, "have a good nap" :rofl: Honestly, when you spend so much time soothing a baby to sleep, I think it's usually their way of telling you that they're ready to do it independently. Sounds like a success.


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## Boo44

Bananaz that's fab!!

Mini what have you changed to get Mia sleeping? (I like to stock up on this good advice just in case hehe)


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## MiniKiwi

Well even though she starts getting grumpy during her dinner and bath at 5:30pm, I've been trying to keep her up until 7pm. I used to make sure she was in bed, asleep by 6pm and she'd wake every 30-60 mins until 9ish then have a good, long motn party. Last night the poor thing was so shattered that I couldn't wait past 6:40pm but she slept until 4am with two very brief wakings :D


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## Shadowy Lady

Bananaz- haha love how Elsie listened to you. Maybe at night time you should go like "go to sleep and don't wake up till 8 am" hehehe!

Minikiwi - I do a variety of things: Tracy Anderson's post pregnancy DVD at home, various boot camp classes (core, steps,...) at the gym and also Zumba and Salsa dancing. I've become a bit obsessed with working out now though; I work out 6-7 days a week :/

Sofia slept through again till 5 am when she woke again COZ SHE HAD POOPED!! What is with the 5 am pooping? She never before had pooped at night. She did go to sleep after till 8 pm which is good....she had also popped at 8 am :/


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## bananaz

Shadowy Lady said:


> Bananaz- haha love how Elsie listened to you. Maybe at night time you should go like "go to sleep and don't wake up till 8 am" hehehe!

:rofl: Totally trying that tonight! Wish me luck...




Shadowy Lady said:


> Sofia slept through again till 5 am when she woke again COZ SHE HAD POOPED!! What is with the 5 am pooping? She never before had pooped at night. She did go to sleep after till 8 pm which is good....she had also popped at 8 am :/

Agh, that's frustrating. Has her diet changed recently? I know that when Elsie started having more solids she had a few early morning poops, but thankfully they stopped quickly.


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## Noelle610

The poop thing is annoying. We've never had night poops, but we've had night wakings as a result of constipation and that sucks. We've also had short naps due to poop!


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## Shadowy Lady

Her diet has changed as she's been on solids for the past month. But only a few days ago we went from 2 meals to 3. Maybe I should go back to 2 meals again? She just always seems like she wants food!


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## Boo44

Shadowy we have the same issue here! 6am poop. Could almost set my watch by it. Am trying new nappies tonight as he leaked in a major way this morning. At least Sofia can sleep after! There is no way jack would sleep after. I'm assuming its due to food. He loves his food there's no way he'd be full with just 2 meals! But now I've been told to cut out his afternoon bottle I'm wondering if that will help.... Pleeeease

Asargh it's so frustrating!!!'


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## bananaz

I don't think you necessarily need to reduce the amount of solids she's getting, there just may be an adjustment period for her digestive system. Hopefully it will be over soon!


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## Noelle610

I agree with bananaz. Just an adjustment period. She has to move to 3 meals at some point!


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## Shadowy Lady

Boo - it sucks doesn't it? I was up an hour before she woke up and couldn't sleep after she went don either :( really hope this is temporary for both of us 

Noelle and Bananaz - I guess you girls are right. She had only 2 meals today but mostly because we have been out and about all day and I didn't get a chance to give her a "solid" lunch. She's asleep now and hoping for no more poops tomorrow early am!!


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## Shadowy Lady

waaaaa she woke up again coz she had pooped only this time it was at 4 am!!! I fed her before putting her down so she babbles less and goes to sleep faster lol! Hope I didn't re-introduce middle of the night feeding.

this pooping thing is getting annoying!


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## Boo44

Noelle when you get a chance could you check the early bed time thread and give me some advice? Lol x


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## Noelle610

Done!


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## Noelle610

UGH horrible night here! We'd had a good week with STTN, but I can't count how many times C was up between 7pm and 11pm! No idea why. I'm exhausted AND nervous that this will become a new pattern, as per the usual.


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## gaiagirl

:( We have lots of trouble with that first part of the night too. I abandoned early bedtime because it was stressing me out so much to battle him and we are back to 9ish. I know that's not ideal so now we are sloooowly going to move it earlier. The time change didnt help!!!!!


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## anti

We are having major issues with nap time. She screams blue murder and I eventually give in and take her out in the buggy to sleep but the weather has been awful so struggling!! She's got 3 teeth in two weeks though so I suspect that's not helping. She's been super grumpy as well. :( hope this stage is over soon!!! First swimming lesson tomorrow and its right in the middle of nap time so it could get interesting. :(


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## bananaz

Noelle610 said:


> UGH horrible night here! We'd had a good week with STTN, but I can't count how many times C was up between 7pm and 11pm! No idea why. I'm exhausted AND nervous that this will become a new pattern, as per the usual.

Oh no! Based on Charlotte's previous sleep habits it seems pretty unlikely that would become a new pattern. Much more probable that she just had an "off" night. Maybe something was bothering her stomach?



gaiagirl said:


> :( We have lots of trouble with that first part of the night too. I abandoned early bedtime because it was stressing me out so much to battle him and we are back to 9ish. I know that's not ideal so now we are sloooowly going to move it earlier. The time change didnt help!!!!!

Moving it slowly is really the best way. I'm sure there are some babies who can just instantly adapt to an earlier bedtime but I'm guessing most need some time for their internal clocks to adjust.



anti said:


> We are having major issues with nap time. She screams blue murder and I eventually give in and take her out in the buggy to sleep but the weather has been awful so struggling!! She's got 3 teeth in two weeks though so I suspect that's not helping. She's been super grumpy as well. :( hope this stage is over soon!!! First swimming lesson tomorrow and its right in the middle of nap time so it could get interesting. :(

Poor kiddo and poor mama. What is her nap schedule like right now? As for swim lesson during nap time, my thought is that if things are bad already then why the heck not? Maybe it will tire her out and she'll sleep better afterward!


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## Sunnie1984

Hello ladies! 

Sorry I have been awol! 

I will now try to catch up but I've got a long way to go!

Socity - I hope you are getting some success with sleep training. I agree you need support when you do it, it is awful hearing them cry. :hugs:

I hope Hadley is not ill, and just had a reaction to the whole milk, if it was the first time she's had it. 

Shadowy Lady - Probably past this now, but I think night weaning for you might be better if you do it gradually, so set the earliest time you will feed and increase it by 30 minutes every few days. THen worst case scenario she's only upset (and keeping you awake) for 30 ish minutes, if at all. 

Fabulous on the STTN. Seren sleeps on her tummy most of the time. I put her down on her tummy, so she doesn't wake herself up trying to turn over. As long as she can lift her head then she's fine. Do you have a movement monitor? I have the angelcare, and it really helps me to relax about it. 

Mrsbeano - Wow, Quinn is cruising already? He's well ahead on his milestones! I agree that all of us seem to have pretty quick developers, perhaps that is why it messes them up so much, they are so determined to do everything quickly that it disturbs their sleep. 

Bananaz - Hope Elsie is feeling much better now. It must be awful when she is sick with nothing concrete to treat her with. At least with antibiotics you feel you can actually help a little. 

I found with travelling (as long as the clocks go forward, not back) that just waking at the "right" time in the morning has been the fastest way to get things on track. But then Seren is not a subtle kind of girl, so gradual change doesn't really go down well with her! 

Noelle - I hope the teething and learning to walk pass soon so Charlotte can get back to good sleeping! I don't think Charlotte is about to break molars yet, is she, so hopefully it will be quick. 

I hope you manage to enjoy your night away. Charlotte will honestly be fine, even if she is feeling crappy. Babies are more resiliant than we give them credit for. 

Boo44 - Great news on the STTN. Did you have any success with nappies? We've switched to huggies stage 4 at night (using up the pampers in the day) and we've had no leaks or bursting since. 

I would put Jack down at night when he is tired, and then wake him early the next morning (so it's technically 7:30 but will feel like 6:30 to him), then bed at the new 7:30pm that night. 

Minikiwi - Is Mia learning anything new? MOTN parties for us are always her learning new things. Although I tihnk Noelle is right about too much sleep, especially if Mia has never needed long naps before. 

Notnic - Sorry no advice here, but :hugs: 5am is definitely not morning! 

Aliss - Sorry you are having difficult nights (I cannot imagine having two of them to deal with!) BUt yay for the self settling, he's doing so well! 

Gaia - You are in the 4 month sleep regression (or hell, as i have nicknamed it!). Everyone else here will give you better advice than me, but honestly, it gets so much better once you hit 6 months. So worst case, just hang on in there, it will get better, 

Stardust - :hugs: Again, other people are better at advice than me, so I'll let them speak first, and then just say I agree with them :haha:

Libbylou - Glad the zoloft is working for you. That's great news. 



Sorry if I have missed anyone, but that was a lot to catch up on! 

Ladies I really need nap help! 

Seren has started refusing her last nap, and she used to only take 3 30 minute naps a day. 

It look like this currently: 

Wake 2 hours then sleep 30 minutes
Wake 2 hours then sleep 30 minutes
Wake 4 hours then want to sleep

By then it is after 4pm, so she can't sleep. So I just start bedtime routine at 4:45pm and so she's asleep by 5:10pm.

But she doesn't take her full bottle, so she wakes 45 mins after sleep for a dream type feed, and again 45 mins later. 

I know I can't complain as she is now STTN again, but I think I need to tweak her naps. 

I'm trying to keep her up for 2.5 hours in the morning, which had a good effect yesterday as she slept for longer than 30 minutes (which I ruined as I had to wake her after 45 mins for baby sensory class).

So if I do 2.5 hours for the first nap - do you think then 2.5 hours to second nap (depending on how long the first nap?) and see what happens then? 

x


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## bananaz

We are having a rough day here. She woke at 4:30am and wouldn't go back to sleep for an hour and a half, despite three feedings and a diaper change. Then when she finally went back to sleep at 6 she got up for the day an hour later :( On top of that she's been fighting her naps and they've been really short too.

I don't know if it's related but she's been unbelievably cranky and clingy for the past few days. She won't occupy herself with anything for longer than 1-2 minutes before she crawls over to me crying. I can't figure out what the &*#$ she wants and my patience is totally gone at this point. Why can't there be a period of time where she's healthy and her sleep is okay and she's in a good mood? It seems like we can only get two of those things at the most, and usually only one.


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## Sunnie1984

Bananaz - are you due a wonder week, it definitely sounds like one to me!


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## MiniKiwi

Thanks Sunnie, Mia has learned heaps lately so it's hard to say. She's also teething quite badly atm.

Mia was 7 months old when she dropped to two naps and started napping well, maybe Seren is ready for two naps instead of three. I'd stretch out her wake times to 2.5 hours and see how you go.

Bananaz, I'm sorry you're having a rough day :hugs: Is Elsie teething? That makes Mia super whiny!



Noelle610 said:


> UGH horrible night here! We'd had a good week with STTN, but I can't count how many times C was up between 7pm and 11pm! No idea why. I'm exhausted AND nervous that this will become a new pattern, as per the usual.

That's just what Mia does, wakes heaps after going to bed for the night. She's easy to settle though. I have no idea why either, she just sits up in her cot and cries. Hope it doesn't become a habit for Charlotte! :hugs:

Mia did her usual last night, bed at 7pm, awake at 8,9 and 10 and then STTN :shock: she slept until 6am. OH asked me if I got up with her in the night and when I said no we were both so shocked! Noelle, I can't thank you enough for your advice, it's clearly doing the trick.


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## bananaz

Yes, wonder week or teething were my thoughts too! She has a tooth coming through but she's never been this bad with teething before, it makes me wonder if she's also getting a molar or something?? And I'll have to go look at the WW stuff, I'm not sure when the next one is supposed to be...

*Sunnie* - I think a lot of babies go from three naps to two at 6 months, but the good news is that daytime sleep often starts to consolidate so you get longer napsat that age too. Generally babies can stay awake for longer periods as the day goes on, so if 2.5 hours of awake time works well in the morning then you might try 2.5-3 hours before her second nap and see how that goes. There will inevitably be an adjustment period (for us it lasted about two months :wacko:) but it sounds like you're on the right path!

*MiniKiwi* - Wow, that's awesome! When was the last time she did an 8 hour stretch like that?? I hope she keeps it up!


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## MiniKiwi

Mia has good and bad days with her teeth. Some of them don't seem to bother her as much but she's having a pretty hard time with the ones coming through now, either side of her top, front two. Just whines all day hehe.

The last time she consistently slept like that was at about 3 months old. We've had a few good nights in between then but not many.. So it feels pretty good :)


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## Boo44

Bananaz - big hugs. I know exactly what you mean. We never get him to have all 3 at once! In fact at the moment he has _another_ cough and is grumpy alllll the time. I pray he'll move soon I really do! He's lost most of his patience for just sitting and playing, yet he can't move himself to do anything else. I know you've been through that. Maybe Elsie's is also developmental and will pass soon. I hope so for your sake!

Sunnie you are so good at commenting to everyone, it's really nice! Thanks for asking about Jack. My friends advised me to try ASDA's own 'little angels' nappies and *touch wood so far we've had no leaks! He's still filling his nappy on waking but doesn't seem to bother him as much... I hope!

Noelle thanks for advising me! And don't worry I'm sure it's not a new phase, just a one/off. You are soo like me, I worry about exactly the same thing! So I do understand. But just try and relax tonight and I'm sure she'll surprise you :)

I'm working on reducing his day nap totals (never thought I'd say that!) but almost like Mini, I'm wondering if that could be the reason for his early mornings as he's getting upwards of 2.5hrs per day and his last nap is late. Well with today being sat we had a lovely day out so of course everything was messed up! He had 45 mins at 10 and then 55 mins at half 1. Then....that was it!!! We went out for tea and no matter how I tried, he was just full of beans and wide awake. So no napping at all from 2.30 until bed time. Eek. God knows what will happen tonight....!


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## bananaz

MiniKiwi said:


> Mia has good and bad days with her teeth. Some of them don't seem to bother her as much but she's having a pretty hard time with the ones coming through now, either side of her top, front two. Just whines all day hehe.
> 
> The last time she slept like that was at about 3 months old... So it feels pretty good :)


Those are the teeth Elsie has coming through too! Hmm, maybe it is discomfort then. Well now I feel bad for getting upset with her.


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## MiniKiwi

Either way, don't feel guilty..it really is tiring having a tiny person following you around all day whining! In our experience at least, it doesn't take too long for the whiny period to end.. just a week or so until the tooth cuts.

I'm not sure how you feel about medicines but I do give Mia paracetamol for it as they obviously bother her. I give her nice cold foods to chew on as well, sliced tomato and cucumber


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## bananaz

MiniKiwi said:


> Either way, don't feel guilty..it really is tiring having a tiny person following you around all day whining! In our experience at least, it doesn't take too long for the whiny period to end.. just a week or so until the tooth cuts.
> 
> I'm not sure how you feel about medicines but I do give Mia paracetamol for it as they obviously bother her. I give her nice cold foods to chew on as well, sliced tomato and cucumber

Thanks, and yes it is totally exhausting! I have no problems medicating her for pain and that's exactly what I'll be doing when she's up from this nap. The tomato and cucumber are good ideas too. Usually I just give her a frozen mini-bagel for teething and she loves that but it's not really the healthiest choice.


*Boo* - I hope you have a good night tonight and that limiting naps will help! When is his bedtime? A 4-5 hour awake stretch before bed isn't too bad at that age, Elsie has them occasionally and it's never seemed to interfere with her sleep.


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## MiniKiwi

Boo - Now that we've moved LO's bedtime to 7pm, she has a 6 hour awake time after her last nap. That really sounds crazy and bad to me but it's working! She sttn last night for the first time in months and every night since we started the 7pm bedtime has been much better than before. When is his bedtime? Hope you have some luck with it tonight..early mornings are gross!


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## Boo44

Thanks girls you've filled me with hope! He was awake 2.30pm until 7.15pm so just short of 5 hours. He was pretty beside himself by bed but drained his bottle in 5 mins and went out like a light. So fingers crossed x


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## NotNic

Thanks for the hugs Sunnie! Still battling with early starts, though mostly they are 6ish again. At least with the lighter mornings it doesn't feel sooo bad.

Bananaz - you are around a WW. The next one is 46 wks which tends to start from 42wks. I haven't read any further than that though. I like to read once I've hit it otherwise all the WW stages feel a bit relentless. :)

Boo I've taken your HV's advise and have dropped Finlay's pm bottle so he's now down to 2 a day. I'd been considering it for awhile but felt sad as he enjoys that one. He weighed 22lbs 11oz three weeks ago and feels soo heavy. He's a very good eater too but started to p*ss about on the other two feeds. He was playing with the evening bottle and was taking a good 15-20 mins to drink 6 ozs. So far its been okay. He doesn't miss the bottle just yet but he's starving by dinner. He is also downing his evening milk which means 7.30pm bedtimes are back. Yay!

Sweet dreams mummies and babies xx


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## Noelle610

Hi girls, I missed a lot! 

Sunnie, I think your LO is ready to transition to 2 naps. I'd do 2.5 hours awake in the AM and then 3 or 3.5 between the first nap and second nap. You may need to do an early bedtime for a few weeks until she adjusts, but Charlotte now usually has about 4 hours between her last nap and bedtime. Sometimes more. You will probably see those naps lengthen as well. Yay for STTN!

Boo, I really hope your plan works! Keep us posted!

MiniKiwi, I'm thrilled that you got a STTN. Long may it continue!

Bananaz, I saved you for last because I'm right there with you :hugs: We're going through this very whiny, need to be held, never happy phase. It's really frustrating and trying my patience. 

Not sure how our night will be. C is sick again with a bad cold :( DH and I are supposed to go away tomorrow night and not sure if we can yet... :(


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## socitycourty

Hadley is also in a whiny, clingy phase. She is always following me if I try to walk away, she sccreamed at the top of her lungs last night for 5 minutes while I did the dishes...she was standing at the baby gate 6 feet away.

I was wondering if she'd cut another tooth but so far nothing. Her sleep remains......well fucked. LOL


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## socitycourty

I just had to say I was laughing to myself when I "refer" people to this thread, :rofl:


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## gaiagirl

Wow what a FAIL of an evening! We have friends visiting from out of town with twin 7 month old girls so it's been a very hectic day!

So my LO had his last nap (of 3) from 3:30-5:30 and I thought if do an 8-8:30 bedtime. All goes well and down he goes at 8:30...only to wake crying 10 min later. Go in and find he has spat up all over himself :( So calm and clean and retry...nooooot easy to put down now! Eventually I send DH in and he goes hysterical and by 9:30 he is way overtired and losin it. Annnnd finally he is now asleep beside me in my bed at 10:30. So yahhhhh, fun night so far!


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## Larkspur

Ladies... hello again. I haven't posted too much lately because the thought alone exhausts me. More on that soon. In the meantime:

*Gaiagirl* Eeeek, hope the night improves! You'd think after such busy days, they'd be exhausted enough to sleep well, but no, it usually works the other way round, huh?

*Socitycourty* and *Bananaz* I hope the whine stops soon... might I recommend a little wine of your own to help cope? :haha:

*Noelle* I hope Charlotte feels better soon! I live in fear of the first cold... I've been incredibly lucky so far and Rafe has never been properly sick, just had a tiny little cough for a few days.

*NotNic* Rafe is about the same size as Finlay, it's back-breaking, huh? I swear he is made of solid lead through the centre.

*Boo* fingers crossed for a good night for you!

*MiniKiwi *great to hear you got a decent night in. 

*Sunnie* My LO quite often does three 30-minute naps, though he's been getting better. Would Seren be dropping a nap? Seems early though, huh?

*Shadowy* Oh dear, early morning poos are a special treat, aren't they? We've had a couple of those since Rafe moved to solids, although he's only on 1-2 meals a day. My only saving grace is that OH has the first nappy change shift, so I usually miss the mess, ha ha.

Okay, this was my catch-up post, stand by for my very long question post.


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## Larkspur

Okay. So after hitting the four-month sleep regression bang on the day of four-months (this is one punctual baby, he was born on his due date too!), we are still up 4-8 times every night. Usually 6-8. I am ALL. PLAYED. OUT. at this point. Something needs to change, all suggestions gratefully received.

Here's the lowdown.

Big baby, 21 pounds. Breastfed. Started solids at six months, now on 1-2 meals a day, lunch some days + dinner every day (in the forlorn hope it would help him sleep better). TBH I am thinking about switching dinner to breakfast as I actually think he might be having indigestion through the wee hours. He nurses to sleep every time, usually takes about 10-15 minutes. When I put him in his cot he's 'asleep', though only very lightly, and usually sighs or shifts around a bit. 

Routine
6-7am LO wakes for day
Breastfed around every two hours through the day
9am first nap, 45mins most days, 1.5 hours if I'm lucky
Second nap 2-2.5 hours after wakeup, usually 45 minutes long
12-1ish Lunch before or after second nap, depending on timing
Third nap around 3.30-4pm, half an hour to 45 minutes
5ish Dinner, bath
Bedtime at 7pm

Thereafter, he wakes up every 45-70 minutes until around 10.30-11.30 (sometimes earlier) and then does a 2-3 hour shift, then wakes again every hour until dawn. After the second one-hour wakeup, he becomes hard to put back down in his cot, so I usually put him in bed with me. Of course, I don't sleep too well this way.

Most times he wakes up, he takes a full feed. Sometimes he will be resettled with just a cuddle (occasionally a minute or so of comfort-suckling, but it is very rare that he will ever be resettled with just patting in his cot (which is right next to my side of the bed). 

I'm actually coping reasonably well during the day, but my evenings are non-existent, and I get evening terrors thinking of the night to come. The first couple of hours of the day are the worst bit, that's when I feel most exhausted and teary.

I don't want to do CC or CIO. I realise I will probably have to wean him off the nursing-to-sleep, though I love doing this for naps and bedtime. Is it possible to night wean without stopping nursing to sleep? Is it safe for a baby that takes full feeds (he's big, so the HV told me he 'should' be able to sleep through, but that seems intuitively wrong to me, like bigger babies would need more fuel than smaller ones)? 

Any thoughts on any aspect of this? If the regression is usually something you have to wait out, is this not an incredibly long regression? Can I help it end? Should I even try?

ETA: Other details - I am an obsessed data tracker and by the app I use, he seems to get about 12-13.5 hours of sleep total per day. This seems short compared to the charts I see, but he doesn't seem overtired. He's extremely good-natured and rarely scratchy, doesn't often show sleep cues, and he doesn't usually wake from his naps crying - he just wakes up and looks around the room and eventually starts making 'Eh, eh' noises.


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## Boo44

NotNic that's very interesting! Jack weighed 22lb 1oz last wk! Every day when I first get out of bed I feel like a creaky old woman with a sore back and achey arms! He's soooo bloody heavy. And long. And his 3 little friends all his age weigh around 18lb so I feel like I've bred a monster! Lol. We dropped the 3rd bottle yesterday and last night he took a full 8oz before bed in 10 mins which is great. Like Finlay, he'd gotten to the stage where he took max 5oz before bed over 30 mins. He also enjoyed his aft bottle but hopefully this will help in some way

Larkspur - ugh 6-8 times a night is awful. I empathise with the awful evening dread, and have also been known to be extremely emotional when I first get up! This sleep stuff is actually torture


Well..
We had a shocking night! But not for reasons I may have expected. You may remember last month jack was given an inhaler during a nasty chesty cold. Well this wk he's had a cold with a very mild cough, nothing to affect him at all in the day so far. Then last night omg!!! Woke up to him coughing intermittently at 3.45am. Now I'm one of these people that once I've heard that very first noise that's me awake. So he proceeded to cough almost back-to-back coughs until 6am!!! It was horrendous. Jack wasn't even awake but we sure were :(. We tried everything, cough syrup, calpol, olbas oil, raising mattress, patting his back. Nothing helped. He went quiet between 6 and 6.40 then started again

I feel like death now and soooo disappointed! There is _always_ something


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## MiniKiwi

The same day that we started the 7pm bedtime, we also started sleeping with the lamp on in our room. I just thought LO could be afraid of the dark. So I guess our success _could_ also be due to that. Or both. Either way, I know when you get no sleep, you'll try anything so thought I'd mention it for any of you with LO's who sleep in dark rooms. It might be worth a try


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## Noelle610

Crap night here. Still sick. Lots of wakings. Feel like death too Boo!

Larkspur, I read over your post a few times. I honestly think your schedule looks fine. Those 45 minute naps are relatively normal when you're on three naps. Once you transition to two and the awake times in between them increase, you will likely see them lengthen so no need to worry.

Honestly, I do think your little man is waking frequently because he has a nurse to sleep association. When he inevitably wakes at night, he needs to nurse to go back down. I would try some gentle sleep training. Do nursing first in your bedtime routine rather than last and put him down awake. You don't have to do CIO - you can soothe him while he's in his crib. I think it will really help. I'd do whatever you need to do to preserve daytime sleep in the meantime. Nurse to sleep and get those naps - a different part of the brain is responsible for daytime sleep, so it won't be confusing for him.


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## bananaz

*Larkspur* - The fact that he is waking so often and taking full feeds sounds like you may have a few issues: 1) he has a sucking-to-sleep association, 2) his body is accustomed to taking in a significant percentage of its calories at night, and 3) the amount of fluids he's taking in at night is keeping his digestive system stimulated and that's likely disrupting his sleep as well. 

To answer your question, it is possible to night wean without stopping nursing to sleep for some babies (I still nurse my LO at bedtime and she only has one feed a night), but I agree with Noelle that putting him down awake is a critical first step. If moving his routine around is too much you might try just nursing him until he's drowsy, or nursing him all the way but then rousing him a little before you put him down. 

Just getting him to settle in the crib should reduce the number of wakings, but given how much he's drinking at night I'm guessing that you're also going to need to do real night weaning. I'm a fan of Ferber's method for this since it's very gradual and gentle. The general idea is that each night you reduce the length of the feeds by a minute while also increasing the minimum time between feedings by a half hour. So if he normally nurses for 10 minutes every hour, the first night you'd do 9-minute feeds a minimum of 1.5 hours apart, then the next night you'd do 8-minute feeds 2 hours apart, etc. If he's fussing before it's time for his next feed then you can pat or rock him or whatever it takes to settle him (might be easier for your OH to handle that part).

One way or the other it's probably going to be rough at first but I think if you're consistent you're likely to see results within a week :hugs:


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## Shadowy Lady

I was gone for 2 nights and there's so much to catch up on...it does sound like a lot of babies (Charlotte, Jack, Elsie and Hadly) have had crap nights :( Is the bad sleep contagious or what? Oh wait no Seren and Mia sttn so congrats Sunnie and Miniwiki :D

Larkspur - honestly, I think the nurse to sleep turns into habits for babies and hence they wake up wanting to be nursed to sleep again. What we did was to replace the last nurse before bedtime (at 6:30 pm) with a bottle. So she goes down awake and puts herself to sleep. She did start waking up a lot less since we made that change and went from 3 wakeups to one and then dropped the last feed a couple of weeks ago. Now she sttn but does sometimes poop at around 4 am lol! 

Sofia has a cold today, noooooo! I agree Boo, there's always something! I'm kinda worried about tonight already :( 

Last night was ok. She slept through till another pooping episode again at 5 am. I just give up on the poop issue already! The main issue was that I was in an "almost accident" on Friday. Someone almost drove their car into mine at the red light coz they didn't stop on time. So I did too quick a shoulder check to change to my next lane and avoid him and have since been suffering with a very stiff neck/shoulder. Pretty much for the past two nights I wake up everytime I roll so like 6-7 times a night all due to pain :(

Also, a question for you ladies...Sofia still has 3 naps a day, is that normal? She naps usually from 8:30-10 am, then 12:30-2:00 and then a last one from 3:30-4:30....It's sounding to me that she's napping a lot? Is that why she's waking up in the middle of the night to poop?


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## NotNic

Shadowy - I'm afraid I have no clue about 3 naps. Finlay never had 3 naps unless you count a cheeky freebie in the car, or he had two rubbish ones. I had no idea they were supposed to have 3 until i read it on here recently. It does sound like your lo has quite a bit of sleep in those three naps though. Finlay only has 2-3hrs total in the two naps. He normally has 90-120 mins and then a shorter one.

Larkspur - I love, love the name Rafe. Rafe and Rafael were on my list but OH didnt agree with me. Finlay certainly sounds like he's made of steel when he falls over and bangs his head! The noise is a little alarming! :) He's soo strong too. 

Boo - Finlay is so much heavier than most of his NCT friends. Even the ones that seem to be a similar height / build weigh 2-3lbs less. His Daddy is a rugby player though so I think he gets his biceps and thigh muscles from him. Certainly doesn't get it from me - I'm 5ft 3 and petite. He already overpowers me! :)

Sorry to hear that we have grumpy babies. Teething is pretty bad for us. I always take comfort in the fact there is always something else. Makes me feel that there is at least a reason for the madness!


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## Sunnie1984

Mini Kiwi - YAY! STTN must feel so good after all those wake ups! Fingers crossed it continues. 

Boo44 - Glad you've found a solution to the nappy problem! I hope shorter naps work for you and you get a bit more of a lie in! 

Bananaz - I hope the teething is over quickly for you. 

Notnic - At least 6am can be considered a wake up time, rather than 5am which definitely isn't. Unfortunately for us, Seren is wired for a 6:30am wake up no matter what we do! 

Noelle - THanks for the advice, I'm working on it. Sorry Charlotte is sick again. Hope you and DH manage to get away, I doubt she'll sleep any better if you stay with her, rather than go away. :flower:

Socity - Sounds like you are also in a WW! :hugs:

Gaiagirl - So sorry you had a bad night. 

Larkspur, I have nothing to add that the others haven't already said. :hugs:



Does anyone find sleep training really annoying? I find myself getting frustrated when I wouldn't normally! :wacko:

We are on day two of nap transition and I'm fed up already! 

Yesterday Seren took 35 minutes after 2.5 hours awake (normally you can set your watch by her for 30 minutes). Then she did 3 hours 15 mins awake because of the timing of her baby sensory class, and slept for 50 minutes. 

She woke crying from that nap though. 

Then I had to put her down for 15 mins at 4:30 because she was so so so tired. She was mad when I woke her up, but it seemed to work because she went down at 6:30pm and STTN with no wake ups or stirrings or anything. 

Unfortunately next door decided to have a loud party at 3:30am (obviously just back from clubbing) and kept me and DH awake for a couple of hours before her 6:30am awakening. :dohh:

This morning she went down at 2.5 hours, quite happily, but woke after 28 minutes!!!! :nope:

I've left her in her cot hoping she'll drop back off, but she is not happy, so just about to go get her up. 

Not good this morning as she now has a swim class at 12pm, so she'll have been awake at least 3 hours 15 minutes again before she will go back down, and I think she's going to be a major grump throughout the class! 

I'm just holding onto everything I've read that it takes at least 3 days for a new routine to even begin to sink in..... we're on day two..... so fingers crossed for some improvement over the next few days! 

How easy is it to say "be consistent" and "do it for at least a week" but so not easy to do! :haha:

Question though, if I do this for a week, and she is still taking 30 minute naps after 2.5 hours awake in the morning, should I extend it a little? The 3 hours plus after the first nap is obviously having a much quicker effect, so is it likely she may need a bit longer in the morning? 

I also don't think it helps that she's not fully transitioned to 4 hourly feeds instead of 3, so I think it's causing her early wake ups, so I'm having to work on those at the same time. 

I know I have it easy at the moment, especially compared to where we were (waking up every 15 minutes all night) but somehow daytime sleep really baffles me! 

x


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## MiniKiwi

*Noelle* - Sorry you're having some rough nights again :( When are you due to go away?

*Boo* - I know exactly how you feel with the sore back and achey arms! My LO is 25+ lbs now :shock: and she's still walked to sleep as well. My back kills! Sorry Jack's been sick, hope the poor little guy is feeling better soon.

*Gaiagirl* - Big hugs :hugs: I remember those days. I used to spend hours every night rocking LO to sleep only for her to wake 10 minutes later :sad2: It does get easier, I promise.

*Shadowy* - So glad you managed to avoid a car accident, hope your neck is feeling better! Mia dropped her third nap around 7/7.5 months (but her naps were always very short) so 3 naps sounds fine. 4 hours worth of naps a day sounds normal too, nice for you as well! I'd say the amount of naps and night time poos are unrelated!

*Larkspur* - Sorry you're having such a hard time, I really hope it ends for you soon :hugs:

*Sunnie* - I'm not sure what you've tried but at Seren's age, my LO went down for her first nap after 90 minutes awake.. maybe she's having such crap naps cause she's overtired? Sorry if you've already covered this but we struggled for months with short/non existant naps and I believe it was because we left her awake for too long between naps.

Well the sttn lasted one night here..sort of just enough to get my hopes up haha. Last night she woke 6 times and up for the day at 4:45am.. naughty Mia! :growlmad:


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## MiniKiwi

That sttn is really messing with my head now. Why did she manage it one night? Last night was her usual crap again. Up 5 times and up at 2am for a motn party. I felt like screaming. I made her stay in our room for it and she cried most of the time cause I wouldn't let her out of her cot to crawl around and play with toys. This is driving me friggen mental. Especially now that I know what it feels like when she sleeps through. So frustrating :(


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## NotNic

HELP! We have a cot stander-upper! For practically the first time ever we had problems getting him to go to sleep. I'll put him down and two minutes later he'll be standing up at the end of the bed calling for us. After 30mins of trying I brought him downstairs to wear himself out. No toys. I just let him crawl around. He just kept pulling himself up and giggling at me. Finally managed to put him down at 8.30. Then this morning at 6.02am he was shrieking for us standing at the end of the cot! He was far too loud to ignore and laying him back down just made him angry. Normally he wakes at 6 and providing he doesn't have a pooey nappy he will play happily for a bit so we can doze. A harsh start to the day is a shock for this mummy. I'm too tired!

MiniKiwi - once they managed one sttn they will be able to do it again. Have faith. xx


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## izzlesnizzle

We're still struggling with the 5am wake ups. Last week she wanted a feed- growth spurt, fine. This week, she doesn't necessarily want a feed, only takes 3 ozs of her bottle but continues until nap time to scream, follow us round crying and whinging. She followed OH round crying at his feet while he was getting ready for work this morning. 

He called me to come and take her as he couldn't get ready. I was like well this is what I have to put up with all day! She is an absolute wreck when she gets up at 5 wanting to start the day. I don't even think she WANTS to start the day, she just cant get back to sleep but by 7am shes a complete mess.

Ive had to put her back to bed with a dirty face from breakfast, unwashed and still in her baby grow (I always get her washed and dressed before her nap) coz she was kicking up such an almighty stink about being tired. 

Ive tried capping the naps at 1 hr in the morning and 1hr 15 in the afternoon and it hasn't worked. Shes still up at 5am every day. We had one 5.50am which was a luxury but this hasn't happened since.

Anyway I found this link for you girls who are still struggling:

https://www.troublesometots.com/9-12-month-baby-sleep-guide/

Hope it helps!


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## AngelUK

Hm interesting reading there izzlesnizzle. Was reading the part about the short naps cause this is really all I have to complain of these days. (Yes I still come and read here just in case I can help and to see how you are all getting on :flower:) My boys very rarely nap longer than 30 mins! They nap in their bouncies with me rocking them with my feet. At night they have dummies and their muslins and they do get their last bottle just before we put them to bed. But they do STTN. So what she says that babies who fall asleep with dummies and with a last bottle doesn't necessarily apply. Or at least it doesn't really make sense to me. I mean, yes Dominic gets whiney just before his naps and after 5 sometimes but if he was so overtired he would be hard to put to bed and he wouldn't sleep well at night, right? Seriously if I could work out why babies do what, I'd write a book and make gazillions lol


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## Noelle610

Hey girls! Sorry I've been MIA, my mom is in town. I'm sorry to all who are struggling. I have to read your link Izzles, but I love Troublesome Tots! It's a great site for anyone who needs tips.

Anyway, sleep is okay here. We had two awful nights with lots of wake ups. Then a 90 minute MOTN party the next night, ugh. Last night she STTN. Hopefully that's the beginning of a good stretch and not a one off.

I chatted with the "Sleep Lady" at the opening of our local JCC and she told me at this age I need to be more consistent with my responses. She suggested verbal reassurance and back patting, but not picking up during night waking. I need to work on that. She's sweet and her methods are gentle.


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## Shadowy Lady

ughhh more pooping for us last night except this time at 3 am!!! I'm rushing out the door now gotta come back and read about everyone's night


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## bananaz

*MiniKiwi* - Oh man, I know that feeling! Having them sleep well one night and get your hopes up is worse than having them consistently sleep badly. Hopefully those good nights will start happening more frequently for you and Mia!

*Shadowy* - Ugh, that's so frustrating. Maybe you can play around with when she eats during her evening routine to see if that helps? Or try different foods?

*Noelle* - Sorry you've had a rough go of it, but yay for STTN! I hope she keeps it up.


We've had a weird week. Five days in a row she was awake and screaming for 1-1.5 hours around 3am, then yesterday her waking was only 15 minutes long but she woke for the day at 5:30am. This morning she slept straight through from 8pm to 5:15am (hooray! :happydance:) but of course now she won't go back to sleep. She usually gets 10-11 hours of sleep a night, so 9 hours really isn't going to cut it.

I'm wondering if her body has caught on to the time change and I need to start moving her bedtime again? I was really enjoying those 7am wakeups :(


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## gaiagirl

Glad for those getting some solid night sleep! Even just one night would seriously be lovely :)

Such a weird night for us. My LO was restless from 1-3 and constantly waking, then finally at 5:30 pretty much woke up (he's usually up at 7:30) and I made DH deal with him for a bit. He finally brought him back to me at 6:30 and he fell asleep and is still sleeping now at 9:30! Wtf!? There goes any bit of routine we had going...

Oh well, hopefully we get back on track a bit with morning and daytime tomorrow.

Nights on the other hand...I think might be a lost cause for awhile!


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## bananaz

Holy crap y'all, I just put LO in her crib for her nap and she fell asleep after 5 minutes. On her own! No nursing or patting whatsoever! :shock: I was prepared to do CC but she barely even whined. And I didn't even tell her to have a good nap this time.

I think having a by-the-clock schedule is really helping. Or maybe someone stole my baby and replaced her with one who self-settles during the day.


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## socitycourty

lucky you! Maybe it's the invasion of the body-snatchers or something, LOL


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## Boo44

bananaz said:


> Holy crap y'all, I just put LO in her crib for her nap and she fell asleep after 5 minutes. On her own! No nursing or patting whatsoever! :shock: I was prepared to do CC but she barely even whined. And I didn't even tell her to have a good nap this time.
> 
> I think having a by-the-clock schedule is really helping. Or maybe someone stole my baby and replaced her with one who self-settles during the day.

Amazing! Yay Elsie &#10084;


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## polaris

I just feel like giving up at the moment.

I don't understand why she won't sleep.

Her daytime routine is fine, three naps or occasionally two if she's up late and has a longer than normal lunchtime nap. She self-settles for naps and used to self-settle at bedtime although she's becoming impossible to get to sleep at bedtime now.

Bedtime usually 8 p.m., I have tried earlier but she never falls asleep before 8. Then she usually wakes every hour until I go to bed at about 10 or 11 at which point she won't settle in the cot and I have to bring her into bed. She then continues to wake up every 60 to 90 minutes until about 4.30 or 5, after which she usually does a longer stretch of sleep until about 7ish when she gets up for the day.

Naps are usually 9.30, 1, and 4.30 (times approximate). She often only does 45 minutes but sometimes will do 1.5 to 2 hours.

She is just doing my head in, especially the evenings. I actually could handle constant feeds all night if she would just do a longer stretch in the evenings. She obviously has a nurse/sleep association but she is usually awake going into the cot.

She is awake and crying at the moment and won't settle at all no matter what I do and I had to walk out of the room because I felt like shaking her which obviously I won't do.

I worry she might be going through separation anxiety but honestly I feel like just leaving her to cry because my head is just melted from lack of sleep. I have a toddler to look after too who thankfully sleeps really well.


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## socitycourty

the lack of sleep is really a killer. it affects your moods, appetite, energy, etc.

I have had those nights where I got so upset I thought I could do something like that because I was so frustrated. I never did but I finally realized what people meant about the lack of sleep.

We're not BF anymore but she still never STTN and I'm going to have to start CIO/CC soon.

There are a few BF ladies here who might have some advice, Bananaz has done some night weaning recently :hugs:


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## mrsbeano

Polaris I've noticed quite a few of us having a dodgy time at your los age. It then seems to improve at around 7 months for a few weeks. Hang in there x


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## gaiagirl

Polaris that sounds SO much like my day to day with LO! Almost exactly word for word everything...I've tried so many things and sometimes we get a 3-5 hour stretch but usually it's every 1-2 hours at night.


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## mellyboo

Wow oddly enough today I put her down for her naps she took 4 .. And all I had to do was lay her down turn her aquirum on kiss her and walked out ?? I had to go in maybe 2 times each because she lost her suckie while trying to settle and she dropped off ? Not to mention he was napping for an hour each time .... Either shes tired today because this is the first time this has ever happened.. Prob just a one time thing I do have a little bit of hope this is the turning point for her .


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## mellyboo

Opps I ment she my iPhone always wants to write he ... She did the same thing when I put her in her crib I've decided to put her in her crib every night but if she wakes up every 30 min to bring her in my bed ..does this sound okay?


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## bananaz

*polaris* - That is really tough. 6 months was a particularly awful time for my LO's sleep. Honestly it seems like giving her a chance to settle herself is probably a good idea in your situation, especially since she's not responding to your attempts to soothe her. It does sound like her nursing to sleep association may be the culprit with the night wakings, and if that's the case then sleep training is likely to be quite effective. The key is just having a gameplan ahead of time and being consistent (which is obviously way, way easier said than done when it's the middle of the night and you're exhausted!). Big hugs to you, I hope things improve soon.


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## mellyboo

Sleep training would Only work some time with us but other times she got to upset if this happens my dr said to try again in a few weeks don't give up on it just have to wait till there ready I guess!


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## Larkspur

*Polaris* and *Gaiagirl*, I've got another one exactly the same here. Polaris, he's pretty much exactly the same age as yours.

We're going to start a gentle break-the-nurse-to-sleep-association plan over Easter as it will be four days off for OH and I, and we can nap during the days with him if we have to. This is the basic plan (formulated after reading The No-Cry Sleep Solution).

In the lead-up to Easter:
- work on solids and increased nursing during the day
- make bathtimes calmer
- introduce a lovey/transitional object (which for me is a little snuggly muslin bear made for just such a purpose) by cuddling it with us as we nurse
- introduce white noise
- increase how quickly I unlatch him as he finishes nursing and drifts to sleep
- decrease the time I hold him for after he unlatches before putting into cot, and if he wakes up and protests, try soothing him in cot before picking up and cuddling/nursing again
- at night, if it is less than three hours since his last feed, try settling with cuddling only unless he really struggles and protests. Am having some success with this for the early night wakings, not so much later on

Once Easter hits, the plan is (for bedtimes and naptime):
- nurse but stopping while awake, story or lullaby, then cuddling/humming till calm and drowsy with me for first two days, then with OH or I for following days, and putting down in cot 
- pat and soothe as first option if he becomes more awake, PU and cuddle if he starts protesting, then put down again when calm and drowsy
- I am okay with crying in arms till calm if it comes to that, but no crying in cot
- the object is that he goes to sleep in his cot by himself every time

Eeeep, wish me luck! I will update on how it goes.


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## anti

Ladies please could I have some advice... The last week ashlynn has been screaming blue murder at nap time, it's really bad! I end up taking her out in the buggy to get her to sleep. She's tired coz she falls asleep quick in the buggy but she just screams blue murder at home. The last two night she's done it at bedtime to. She's cut 3 teeth in two weeks and I can see three more just under the surface. Could that be the problem? Do I need to do anything or is it just a phase that will pass?


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## Noelle610

Hi girls! My mom departs today, so I should have more time to catch up with you lovely ladies :) 

Shadowy Lady, the poops, UGH! That sounds awful. I hope Sofia's digestive system adjusts soon.

Melly, sounds like your LO is beginning to settle herself, how wonderful! Hope it continues.

Polaris, I'm so sorry. I think I started this thread just before my LO turned 6 months, so that was not a great time for sleep for us either. I think some sleep training to break the nurse to sleep association would work well - whether it's gentle methods or CC.

Larkspur, great plan! Keep us posted on how it goes. I'm sure it's going to be very helpful for other moms in the same situation, which is just so common.

Anti, how long is LO awake before you put her down? The screaming could mean she's overtired, especially if she's crashing in the buggy. It also could be related to teething. You could try some ibuprofin to see if that helps.

Sleep has been pretty good here the past two nights. Here's hoping it continues.

I was thinking about something when reading another Baby Club thread on sleep... Are there babies that really STTN without a peep from 7 to 7? Even when Charlotte does STTN, she often will cry out in her sleep or wake up around 3am to chat to herself for five minutes. I just assumed that all babies were loud, but someone mentioned they don't consider it STTN if there's any fussing during the night at all. I just can't imagine having a baby like that, although I would love it!


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## anti

Noelle she's awake for quite a while. Mornings are about 4 hours and afternoons are about 5 hours. It's Ben like that for about 2 months now. I spoke to my health visitor about only one nap a day and she says its fine, some babies are just like that. Her routine hasn't changed recently so I don't know what's happened! She never shows sleepy signs, no eye rubbing, ear pulling, yawning... Nothing! So it's really difficult. I know she's in a wonder week at the moment. They usually affect naps but not this badly!


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## anti

Also to add, I've tried putting her down earlier for naps but she just won't go to sleep. Talks to herself for a while then screams till I go get her. :( I'm so lost!


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## aliss

3am wakeup... "oooo.... oooo....oooo" for hours, what the hell do you do??? He's in our room (there's no other bedroom except his brother's and I'm not dealing with a cranky toddler).

I'm confuzzled.


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## Noelle610

Anti I think some older babies don't really show reliable sleepy signs. I would try 3 hours awake and do it for a week. She will need some time to adjust and will likely fight it at first

Aliss, we've had that... Ugh! I think it's developmental. Not sure if there's a solution.


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## anti

Thanks, will try that. She's gone down for her nap with no screaming today! :)


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## NotNic

Noelle I would consider sttn one where I didn't wake up because of my lo. I would also say that if I didn't need to see to him, but he moaned or mumbled that he slept through too. So if he didnt need me to settle him then he slept through if that makes sense. Technically as Finlay does move (sit up / crawl) while appearing to be asleep I guess some mums might claim that as sttn, but personally I wouldn't. On the flip side some of us would consider 10-4 as sttn because we'd have enough sleep in that period BUT personally I found mum's claiming their babies as sttn when doing this, a bit upsetting to me as I felt like their babies were sleeping better than mine. In fact my son could sleep for 6 hrs too, but he might do it at less sociable hours like 8-2ish.


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## polaris

I would love if Clara would sleep for 5-6 hours at any time, I'm not fussy! She has honestly never slept for that long in her life.

Larkspur, I thought your LO sounded very similar to mine when I read your earlier post. I really like your plan and I am going to borrow some bits of it. I like the idea of snuggling with the lovey while nursing to create good associations.

The funny thing is with Clara that she doesn't actually nurse to sleep most of the time except during the night and usually self-settles easily at nap times. But I still feel that she depends on nursing to get herself in the right frame of mind for dropping off.

I have tried spacing out her feeds during the night and also had some luck in resettling her without feeding in the early part of the evening but during the night it is just a nightmare, if she wakes after two hours (which she always does) she will cry for an hour until I give in and nurse her. I find it really difficult to have that much crying during the night even if I'm there trying to comfort her because it's waking up everyone in the house and then everyone's miserable and sleep deprived.

She is very persistent and stubborn in her personality. I do feel that eventually I will end up doing CC with her but I'm going to wait another month or so in the hopes that her sleep will improve with more gentle methods. I do think separation anxiety is adding to it at the moment so the timing doesn't seem great for CC.

Noelle, DS did/does sleep through for 12 hours without me hearing a peep from him, however he didn't do this until he was older, maybe 14 or 15 months. As a baby he would have cried out quite a bit in his sleep or when transitioning sleep cycles even if he didn't need me to go in to him. I still counted it as sleeping through if I didn't have to go in and resettle him.


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## mrsbeano

I think that some Mums are just lighter sleepers than others. I know when its DHs night I mentally switch off a bit more and don't always hear him but he makes a lot of noise in between sleep cycles as it gets closer to the morning. 

It is definitely sttn if I don't have to get out of my pit. The mums who class it as not sttn have got good sleepers lol. 

There was a tv programme on last night and it said that there were very few bad sleepers but that most children need to learn to sleep. I think I beg to differ! I see where she's coming from in that most kids aren't innately good sleepers but there are definitely bad sleepers too who don't have a medical issue.


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## gaiagirl

I have an issue with the whole 'bad' and 'good' sleeper thing, and I have to catch myself all the time with it too. In reality, infants and young kids don't sleep like adults. They are not evolved that way and it's totally normal to sleep lightly and wake often. 

They're definitely so variable and some people luck out with babies that do sleep like adults, lol. But not me! Average normal infant here :)

Anyways I guess the point is just that I sometimes need the reminder that this is all NORMAL! And babies do grow up into older kids that sleep more like I do. I think those programs like to scare us into thinking that unless we buy a book and follow a sleep program our kids will never sleep. But a five year old who is stressed about bedtime every night really isn't the norm! 

Ahhhhh ok rant over.

On this front...only two wakings after 9pm but they were full wakings where he actually needed put back to sleep whereas often it's 4-5 short partial wakings. Can't decide which I prefer! Lol


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## Noelle610

Interesting perspectives, thanks ladies.

I would consider it STTN if Charlotte made noise that woke me or sat up/crawled while seemingly asleep. If I don't have to get out of bed and "help" her go back to sleep, I consider it sleeping through. She's always in a different position when she wakes, so I assume she moves around a lot even when I don't hear her. I figure I go to the bathroom in the middle of the night and go straight back to sleep. I still consider myself sleeping all night.


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## gaiagirl

Aliss - that was F's wake ups last night at 1 and 5. As soon as he started cooing I knew he was really waking so I grabbed him and started rocking. The first wake up took an HOUR and he went back down at 2, then the 5am one just took maybe 20 min...this is really abnormal for him. Since like 6-8 weeks he hasn't really had any MOTN parties! I reeeeeeaaally hope that's not a new pattern.


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## NotNic

Sorry Noelle I didn't quite explain myself properly. I would count it as sttn when F moves if I didn't need to sort him out. Everyone fidgets in their sleep. Trouble is when he sleep crawls he gets very distressed and cries in his sleep too - so I have to move him. Even though he appears to be asleep, I wouldn't say it was relaxing sleep so not sttn. Also as the phrase says sleep through the night, I am not expecting to get him until morning when its time to get up (are you listening Finlay?! :haha:). 

So, naps have gone weird. He seems to only want one nap a day. Today I did get a second 20 min one but he fell asleep in his cot sitting down collapsed over the teddies he was playing with. :wacko: When I found him like that I moved him and within 5mins he was awake. I'm hoping that once his top four teeth have come through (two broke through yesterday and it sounds like the next two are very close) some normality might return. He's 42wks tomorrow so it could be ww issues too.


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## MiniKiwi

Uff another rubbish night.. I went to bed at 11:30pm and have been up since 3am. So tired I actually feel like vomitting :nope:


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## Noelle610

MiniKiwi said:


> Uff another rubbish night.. I went to bed at 11:30pm and have been up since 3am. So tired I actually feel like vomitting :nope:

:hugs:


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## NotNic

Hey I'm just catching up on last nights 'Bedtime Live (UK)' Anyone else been watching it?


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## Noelle610

NotNic said:


> Hey I'm just catching up on last nights 'Bedtime Live (UK)' Anyone else been watching it?

No, tell us about it!


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## NotNic

I don't know if you can watch it outside of the UK but basically Channel 4 are doing a live weekly show starting at 8pm looking at different families each week who have problems getting their babies or young children to sleep. There are cameras in the family home and a sleep specialist talks each family through the sleep plan and technique they've agreed on through an ear piece giving them live support. The TV show checks on the families progress and has short films on other sleep issues and the science of sleep. The Dr who is part of the presenting team is not a fan of CIO preferring gentler approaches. I think the plan is that they follow the families they help to see if the techniques work and they can stick with it. Pretty interesting stuff (for people with sleep issues. The TV critics weren't so keen) https://bedtimelive.channel4.com/


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## Shadowy Lady

MiniKiwi said:


> Uff another rubbish night.. I went to bed at 11:30pm and have been up since 3am. So tired I actually feel like vomitting :nope:

:hugs: sounds horrible :nope: I always feel nauseous when I'm sleep deprived too. Like all of our organs are related somehow...

Our night was slightly worse than usual but nothing I can do about it since Sofia is sick. She's been sneezing and coughing all day and went to sleep at 6 pm (about an hour earlier than usual). She did sleep through till 4:15 am but woke up then coughing and annoyed. I ended up feeding her to calm her down to go back down. She went down again at 5:30 am and slept till 8:30 am.

Oh ya and she had pooped at 4:15 am too:dohh: I have tried feeding her different food and different times of the day and with no fail still there's pooping at around 4 am. Not sure what to do about it anymore...has anyone had persisting poop issue in the middle of the night around 6/7 months?


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## Noelle610

NotNic said:


> I don't know if you can watch it outside of the UK but basically Channel 4 are doing a live weekly show starting at 8pm looking at different families each week who have problems getting their babies or young children to sleep. There are cameras in the family home and a sleep specialist talks each family through the sleep plan and technique they've agreed on through an ear piece giving them live support. The TV show checks on the families progress and has short films on other sleep issues and the science of sleep. The Dr who is part of the presenting team is not a fan of CIO preferring gentler approaches. I think the plan is that they follow the families they help to see if the techniques work and they can stick with it. Pretty interesting stuff (for people with sleep issues. The TV critics weren't so keen) https://bedtimelive.channel4.com/

Sounds interesting! I can't imagine a wide audience of people would be into this... Just moms of bad sleepers like this group :haha:


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## Noelle610

Shadowy Lady said:


> MiniKiwi said:
> 
> 
> Uff another rubbish night.. I went to bed at 11:30pm and have been up since 3am. So tired I actually feel like vomitting :nope:
> 
> :hugs: sounds horrible :nope: I always feel nauseous when I'm sleep deprived too. Like all of our organs are related somehow...
> 
> Our night was slightly worse than usual but nothing I can do about it since Sofia is sick. She's been sneezing and coughing all day and went to sleep at 6 pm (about an hour earlier than usual). She did sleep through till 4:15 am but woke up then coughing and annoyed. I ended up feeding her to calm her down to go back down. She went down again at 5:30 am and slept till 8:30 am.
> 
> Oh ya and she had pooped at 4:15 am too:dohh: I have tried feeding her different food and different times of the day and with no fail still there's pooping at around 4 am. Not sure what to do about it anymore...has anyone had persisting poop issue in the middle of the night around 6/7 months?Click to expand...

So sorry she's ill!

The poop thing is just so weird. If it were right after bed, I'd think it was a diet issue... but at 4am I can't imagine why she's doing it. Have you asked your ped?


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## Shadowy Lady

Noelle - no but I think I should at this point. It's been exactly a week of this and it's very odd...


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## Noelle610

Yeah, it's officially weird! Let us know what he says. I bet it's an easy fix.


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## bananaz

*MiniKiwi* - :hugs: I hope last night was better?

*Shadowy* - I agree with Noelle, time to ask a doctor about the morning poops! I'm surprised it's still going on, I thought it would've gone away by now.


We are on day 3 of just setting LO down in the crib and walking away for naps and it's still working! She just plays for 5-10 minutes and then goes to sleep, vs. all of her previous naptime self-settling which involved a lot more fussing and intervention on my part. This is so easy it feels like cheating! I'm in shock. 

Of course it's obvious that this development is entirely due to my skill as a sleep guru rofl:) so I have to share a tip that I think helped us, which is to put her in her crib with the light still on. It could just be a coincidence, but I think being able to orient herself to the crib and see where her loveys are before the light goes out helps.


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## Noelle610

Bananz, I'm thrilled to hear that!

My DH insists on leaving Charlotte's light on (albeit on the lowest setting) when he puts her down in case she still wants to "play". Then he proceeds to throw toys and books in her crib. It's so strange to me, because I am all business - dark room and no toys - she's supposed to be sleep gosh darnit! BUT, she always goes right to sleep for him... He compares it to my winding down and surfing the net on my phone or reading before bed. Maybe he's onto something....


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## bananaz

Haha, I don't put books or hard toys in there or leave the light on, but I have increased the number of stuffed animals and I definitely think it helps. It seems like they distract her long enough for sleep to sneak up on her. How does Charlotte go down when you put her in with no toys or light?


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## Noelle610

That's really interesting! She usually does pretty well for nights, but naps can be a struggle sometimes. Maybe I'll try that approach.


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## MiniKiwi

Bananaz, that sounds awesome. I have tried quite a lot just putting Mia in her cot but it doesn't work :( She doesn't have any toys at all, maybe I'll give that a go.

Things are actually getting worse here. Last night she was up hourly or less :wacko: I just don't get it


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## bananaz

MiniKiwi said:


> Bananaz, that sounds awesome. I have tried quite a lot just putting Mia in her cot but it doesn't work :( She doesn't have any toys at all, maybe I'll give that a go.
> 
> Things are actually getting worse here. Last night she was up hourly or less :wacko: I just don't get it

Yeah it never worked for Elsie either until suddenly... it did! I don't think it would work without the loveys though, she likes having something to tackle and toss around while she's going to sleep.

Poor Mia and poor you :( Could it be teething-related? Or maybe even an ear infection?


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## MiniKiwi

Hmm I don't think it could be an ear infection, she's happy, no temperature, not crying in the night and fine lying down. Her teeth are definitely more likely to blame but I thought we were through with the worst of that, her four teeth are through the gum now..so I don't know


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## Noelle610

Ugh MiniKiwi, my heart breaks for you! That type of sleep deprivation is just crushing. I wish I had some good advice, but I really only have :hugs:


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## Boo44

Shadowy - jack developed a poop habit of 6am (when previously sleeping til 7.30) when he was 7 months old. He's still doing it at almost 9 months! Totally out of the blue. I know 4am is worse. We've tried all we can think of to stop it (even vetoed weetabix for a few days poor baby!) but nothing has changed it. The best thing we've done is switch nappies. He doesn't leak now and sometimes still hardly stirs and gives us until 7am despite the pooping

Just wanted you to know you're not alone lol!

Bananaz that's fantastic!! Nothing like happy naps 

Mini kiwi - you out of everyone deserve Mia's brief sttn habit to come back. I really have everything crossed for you, you're so nice! (Hope that makes you feel better)


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## NotNic

For close to a month, around 7/8 mths Finlay woke with a disgusting nappy every morning. It was annoying then it stopped and we got the early wake ups instead. At a guess, I reckon its just a change in their bowels, where they are maturing coupled with extra fibre in their diets and larger portions. 

I posted elsewhere about naps and this week the nap times have got less and less. Without me cutting them down he is sleeping for roughly an hour in the morning and on the days when he does have two they've lasted just 30mins. Before he was having close to two hours in the morning and 45mins - 1hr pm on average a day. Having a shorter morning nap doesn't really give us a good pm sleep anymore. Bring back d nap times please!


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## Shadowy Lady

Minikiwi - OMG I'm so sorry Mia had a worse night. Do you get help with the night wakings? Does she feed at every wakeup call?

Bananaz - yey for awesome naps! 

Boo - noooo don't tell me that!!! I really hope this stops soon. Or at least if she could poop a bit later, I even take 6 am over this stupid 4 am! What diapers do you guys use? We use Pampers Cruisers and she never leaks...but I guess she's just uncomfortable.

NotNic - you're probably right...just hoping it goes away :( We go through shitty nap days but usually it doesn't last. Does he sleep and nap in the same place?

So naps have been great for us for the past 2 weeks. She naps in average 4.5 hours a day. I also never have any problems putting her to sleep or nap. So if this stupid poop issue was resolved I wouldn't be complaining. I could not get a hold of her doc and they said they'll be calling back tomorrow....maybe by some miracle we'll have no poop tonight? One can sure hope....


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## pompeyvix

Hey, can I join in on the baby sleep thread?!

Our main issue is day time naps. Max around an hour a day. On the rare occasional good day, she sleeps 90 mins. 

Normally 2 naps, sometimes 1.

Any ideas?

xx


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## Larkspur

*Bananaz*, that's great! My LO started randomly self-settling for naps of his own accord just before the sleep regression hit. At the time it felt like cheating too! 

*Shadowy*, I'm sorry but I keep giggling at the 4am poop*. I'm fascinated to know what the doctor says and if there is a trick to fix it. Hope it stops soon!

*MiniKiwi*, hugs... maybe the change when daylight saving ends next week will create a little jolt and fix things? I dunno, I'm pretty much just hoping for miracles here!

BUT! Speaking of miracles, or at least surprising things, I am happy to report that we are showing promising signs as we gear up to Fix The Bad Sleep. I've been unlatching progressively earlier, and he's been taking to it okay. Then, last night and today, he has twice VOLUNTARILY spat out the nipple while still eyes-open, tipped his head back, closed his eyes, and started to drift off! :happydance:

He's also done a couple of three-hour shifts in the last couple of days, which is a lot better than I've seen for a while. I proceed with hope.

*Rafe will probably start now that I've giggled at it.


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## bananaz

*pompeyvix* - How are you getting her to sleep? And when are the naps usually?

*Larkspur* - That's awesome progress. I'm excited to see how things go once you officially Take Action!


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## MiniKiwi

Wow you know it's bad when even Noelle doesn't have advice! Lol! But I did read your advice earlier in another thread and tonight I'm getting serious on Mia's ass! I'm so friggen tired, I've had a constant headache the last week or so. Tonight we're going to try and put a stop to the walking to sleep and I'll sit with her by her cot and shhh her until she sleeps and if she cries about it then so be it. I should say _when_, not if!

Aww thank you, Boo! That's lovely and I have everything crossed for us every night too so hopefully there's some kind of improvement soon. Also lol at you taking away his weetbix! Hope you and shadowy find a solution to the early morning poo!

Shadowy, thankfully my OH is awesome so yeah I have heaps of help. I definitely needed that last night, after 3.5 hours sleep the night before I felt ready to die by 8pm and went to bed..for Mia to wake up 10 minutes later then OH did the wakings until 2am. I feed her once in the night, the rest of the time she needs a cuddle, walking etc. The bottle doesn't send her back to sleep though :(

Larkspur - god I'm so nervous about the time change, at this point if things got any worse I might just die. What day is the change? How sad is this - Today I've actually been fantasising about her sttn for my birthday next week lmao..as if! So happy that things are looking up for you though, it definitely sounds like progress to me :)

Pompeyvix - sorry you're joining in :hugs: I actually don't feel qualified to give advice seeing as my baby is a total menace! But I hope you get some advice in here, it's soooo frustrating having a non-napping baby


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## mellyboo

Jords has started self settling yaye :) all week success she still has night wakings .. Depends lately its been every 2 hours but I don't mind better than 30 mins huge improvement ...we do the toy thing actually works wonders and then we remove it ! And she's in her crib some times for the whole night and other times she spends early mornings in mine depends!


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## NotNic

MiniKiwi - I might have a suggestion. The Bedtime live program I was talking about had a baby on it they referred to as a 'motion addict'. She would only fall asleep if her dad rocked and jigged here. If he put her down too soon she'd cry hysterically and often theyd end up co-sleeping. They suggested something I think they called gradual withdrawal. They got her dad to kiss her, say goodnight, put her in her cot. He then laid down next to the crib with his hand firmly on her stomach. He was advised not to pat or rub, and to try not to speak to her. She whimpered for a bit then miraculously chilled out. He stayed there with his hand on her until she was in a deep sleep. Then for the first night he slept next to her on a mattress on the floor, so that if she woke he could do the same straightaway. They were advised to limit motion and not to pick her up out of the cot unless she needed changing. Then the next night they were to do the hand thing and lie next to her while she fell asleep, then hopefully they wouldn't need to sleep next to her. This would continue easing back until they could stand with their hand on her tummy and the length of time would reduce until she was able to fall asleep on their own. They anticipated the process taking a maximum of a week to work. Certainly they got their baby to fall in a deep sleep in 40 mins that first night. As it was live I won't know how they get on until the update that next week, but maybe something like this would be worth a go.

Pompeyvix - our naps have gone poo, but when we tried to convince F to have naps we did the pick up, put down technique as soon as he started to look tired. The HV who advised us suggested that we tried to put him in the same place for naps and ideally at roughly the same time every day. She also advised us to try to do the naps in a cot / crib rather than prams and rockers as its easier for them to sleep longer in the place they are used to sleeping properly. Gradually his sleeps got much longer and it was around 6months that we started to get ones lasting 2hrs+ total. 

Us - the naps are in his cot, though yesterday his pm one was in his pram. I'm trying not to make too big a deal of it as 4 top teeth are coming through simultaneously. Two are visible now and the other two have just broken the gum so I think that'll be soon. If however the bad naps continue then I think I might have to get tough. I am wearing him out with activities so maybe the Duracell baby will wear out soon. :) The one thing that did concern me on my other thread was how many babies had dropped to one nap by 10.5months. Also my mum told me I dropped my second nap early. It seems that Finlay has inherited all my bad baby habits so far. :dohh:


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## Noelle610

Pompey, hi! What's your LO's night sleep like? If I'm remembering correctly, she is sleeping in quite late? I'm wondering if she's combining her night sleep and first nap.

Larkspur, that is wonderful! So glad to hear your plan is working out.

Melly, also great for you! It's a wonder how amazing a 2 hour stretch can feel when you've been getting up twice an hour!

MiniKiwi, I think your idea is great! I was going to recommend some gentle sleep training, but I wasn't sure how comfortable you were with that and I respect that. Let us know how it goes! 

NotNic, it does sound like your LO may be an early transitioner to 1 nap. I'm afraid of that transition! Hope it goes smoothly for you.

Things are good here! The night started off weird. I put Charlotte in her crib and she was quiet. Went to check on her 20 minutes later assuming she was alseep, but she was laying on her back with her eyes open just totally relaxed! And she's usually a tummy sleeper. So I left her to it and she eventually fell asleep and STTN. How's that for self-settling? :haha:


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## Shadowy Lady

ughhh I still haven't heard from my doctor and last night we had a pooping episode at 1:30 am!!! And for the past two nights she actually cries when she wakes up pooping...she hadn't cried in the middle of the night for quite sometime....oh ya and she was up for the day at 6 am. Very unusual for her also. Wondering what this is; teething, her cold,...

I started changing some stuff in her diet today. Gave her grains this morning (barley cereal and pureed pear), will give her meat and veggies for lunch and then fruit for dinner. I was giving her grains as dinner before so we'll see if it makes a difference.


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## Noelle610

Shadowy Lady said:


> ughhh I still haven't heard from my doctor and last night we had a pooping episode at 1:30 am!!! And for the past two nights she actually cries when she wakes up pooping...she hadn't cried in the middle of the night for quite sometime....oh ya and she was up for the day at 6 am. Very unusual for her also. Wondering what this is; teething, her cold,...
> 
> I started changing some stuff in her diet today. Gave her grains this morning (barley cereal and pureed pear), will give her meat and veggies for lunch and then fruit for dinner. I was giving her grains as dinner before so we'll see if it makes a difference.

You know, I was thinking about your early morning wakings recently... I can't help with the poop, but I'm thinking Sofia might be ready to transition from 3 naps to 2. I think you mentioned she naps about 4 hours during the day? That's quite a bit (and a good problem to have!), but at some point as she gets older it may start to affect her night sleep. Often the signs of being ready to transition include an early morning waking. You might have to move bedtime earlier a bit until she gets used to being awake for longer in the evening.

If you can do 3 hours between naps and bedtime, it might work well. Something like this:

7am wake

10am-11:30am nap

2:30pm-4pm nap

7pm bedtime


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## gaiagirl

Well, we tried moving lo to his room last night. I was worried that it was our shifting and noises keeping him up/waking him at night.

He's usually in there in the evenings before we go to bed, but still tends to wake every few sleep cycles and need resettled all evening. That was the same. In bed at 7:45, resettled at 8:30, 9:30, 10:30. Then slept until 12:15. At which point he had a VERY hard time going back into his crib and was waking 10 min after I got back in bed, lol. So I gave in and brought him back to bed.

Might have scared him straight though, from 12:30-7 I think we only woke once very briefly! 

I'll try again for his room but not sure we are ready!


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## Noelle610

That's a nice long stretch, gaia! That early evening waking is usually a result of baby being overtired. I can't quite recall, how are his daytime naps?


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## gaiagirl

They're a bit all over the place. Sometimes 2 hours, sometimes 40 min. Yesterday was over 2 hours in the morning, then 2 40min ones later. I try not to let him go more than 2 hours without napping, although it was 2.5 before bed.


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## gaiagirl

He almost never gets to the point of showing tired cues, like rubbing eyes or yawning. Sometimes he will get a little fussy right before it's nap time. I've tried really hard to not let him get overtired though!

His bedtime used to be later like 9/10 but we have been doing 7:30-8:30 for awhile. He definitely treats the first bit like a nap. Often after one resettling he will go 1.5-2 hours but it's never really a long stretch until he's in our room or in bed with me!


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## Noelle610

Yeah, some kids don't show signs - including my own. We had to go by the clock. You might want to try shortening your wake times evey more. Try 90 minutes and see how that goes. If he's really overtired from fragmented night sleep, he may need less wake time.


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## gaiagirl

We used to do 90 min wake time but he started fighting it and needing more time before a nap. But in the morning it's usually 90min and if he has a short nap I'll usually try for another 90 min later! It's tough because with a short nap and 90min awake we have four or more naps a day! Can't wait for the days of 2...

No matter how well rested, this baby has NEVER accepted that it's truly night time until 9/10pm! Lol


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## Shadowy Lady

Noelle - you are right I think she's napping too much (lol never thought this would become a problem).

Today she napped from 9:45 am to 10:45 am exactly. It's 12:45 pm now and she's still wide awake. I'm gonna try putting her down at around 1:30 and let her nap only till 3 pm. Hoping this may help. I don't know anyone her age that naps as long :/


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## gaiagirl

Shadowy, I can't wait for that! Maybe I can actually go out and do more during the day, lol. Sometimes I feel trapped at home because he doesn't nap well out and about!

On the other hand...less naps = less mommy time during the day!


----------



## Noelle610

Shadowy Lady, it's a great problem to have! If naps are already on the long side, she'll likely not have a huge issue with the 3 to 2 transition.


----------



## Shadowy Lady

Gaia - ur LO is younger I bet as he gets older he would be able to nap no matter where. Sofia still naps better in her crib but she doesn't mind the stroller either ;)

Noelle - I do hope so, you always give the best advice on this forum :) I just put her down at 1:40 pm about 3 hours since she last woke up. She went down right away...I'm hoping this would resolve the issue. I know I can't control her poop (lol) but she's actually annoyed when she wakes up pooping. She never seemed to be so cranky in the middle of the night before.


----------



## MiniKiwi

Thanks so much for all the advice and hugs ladies, this thread is so wonderful :)

Notnic, thank you - we tried something similar to what you suggested last night. Not quite the same but I put Mia in her cot at 7:05pm, full and clean etc. and put my hand on her tummy, my other hand stroking her hair and loudly shhhhed. She cried a little bit but was actually asleep by 7:15pm. 10 minutes of shhing and patting. That felt like a huge success :)

She slept until 8:45pm and needed resettling then didn't wake until 1:30am when she had a 1.5 hour motn party and I fed and changed her. She slept until 7am :happydance: and then my mum took her and me and OH slept until 8:30am :D Such a great night!!!!!!!!!!

Noelle, I'm not really comfortable with sleep training and was very nervous about putting her to bed last night but it went much better than expected. I'm hoping tonight goes just as smoothly. Oh and I thought you might find this funny - I was telling OH some of your advice and I refer to you as 'the BnB sleep lady' :haha:


----------



## Noelle610

:rofl:, the "BnB Sleep Lady"!!! I love it :) I think you girls give me too much credit... I just throw some ideas out there and sometimes they stick :haha:


----------



## Boo44

Haha mini kiwi I refer to you all as my 'forum friends' - whenever we have an issue I say to my hubby 'I'll just ask my forum friends...!' Think he trusts you all lol

Noelle when exactly are Charlotte's naps? We're on 2 a day and have been trying to reduce the duration in order to help his early morning wakings. I'm aiming for max of an hour am and an hour pm. Today his pm nap was a car nap and was an hour earlier than usual and only 30 mins long. He woke at 2pm. I was absolutely convinced he would need a power nap in order to get to his bedtime but he was so happy and absolutely fine. He was awake for 5hrs and 15 mins before bed! Seems too much to me. 

Am not sure what the 'ideal' is as far as a nap that isn't too long or too short, and what sort of gap I should have before his bed? 

We actually had a 7.30am this morning!!!!! I did go to him at 6am and gave his dummy once then straight back to sleep until 7.30. Fantastic and the latest morning we've had in months xx


----------



## pompeyvix

Thanks for your replies ladies!



bananaz said:


> *pompeyvix* - How are you getting her to sleep? And when are the naps usually?
> 
> Sometimes she will go into her cot awake and take herself off to sleep, but this is rare. If she is crying, I have her nap on me or if she is due for a nap and we are going out, she will do so in the car seat. There is no routine/time with her naps, very sporadic! I know she can self settle because at night she is fine....




Noelle610 said:


> Pompey, hi! What's your LO's night sleep like? If I'm remembering correctly, she is sleeping in quite late? I'm wondering if she's combining her night sleep and first nap.

Her night sleep is really good now. She is put down awake and takes herself to sleep. Usually one dream feed around midnight and she then sleeps through til 10 (it's not always been like this, this is a recent thing!)

Yes she is a late riser, she wakes between 9.30 and 10.30 each day....perhaps you are right, sleeping this late could be classed as her first nap of the day. I never thought of it like that before but sounds about right?
I don't want to change this though, as it means I can wake naturally and then get all my morning jobs done by the time she wakes. I just wish her subsequent naps could be more than 30 mins a pop!


----------



## izzlesnizzle

I went to bed armed with a plan last night. This 5am wake up thing has to stop. So I had set the alarm for 4.30am to go in and reposition her to slightly rouse her for her to enter a new sleep cycle and break the habit of waking up at 5, resetting her body clock.

HA! I think she must have heard me. Instead the little minx woke up at 3am and would not go back to sleep! 

I downloaded an app on my phone yesterday of white noise. I put it on (awful sound) and sat with my hand through the bar with my hand on her tummy for 30 mins and eventually she went back to sleep until 6am. Then OH got up and put some toys in her cot and she had a little play then went back to sleep until 6.40am.

Tonight, im going to put her favourite toys in her cot, she can even have the remote control if she wants it (minus the batteries of course, don't want any nasty accidents!). 

I wonder if her waking at 3 has broken the 5am habit without me having to do it for her? But I don want 3am to be the new 5am! 

I think she was overtired from getting up at 5 the morning before and she only had just on 2 hrs of naps yesterday all in all. I find 2 hrs of naps doesn't help her night sleep. A baby her age is supposed to have 14 hrs sleep a day, shes only getting 12-13 because of the early wake ups so we are in a lose lose situation at the moment. But I will win win, I will haha!


----------



## Iren_iren

I am starting to read this thread from the beginning as LO is sleeping in my arms..
But few questions meanwhile...I just don't know where to start
Here is our sleeping routine:
4 naps a day, first and last in my arms, 2 in between in his pram. It's not fun when the weather is bad, but I a more or less ok with that. The problem is when we are at home.
He just won't get it, that he needs to sleep in his bed. I tried several times putting him there drowsy but awake and he ends up screaming, but its bit too early for CIO, so not keen to leave him there just cry. As soon as I pick him up, he nods off in my arms.
I've tried put down pick up method, but just for a day. He just gets more frustrated and inconsolable. 
I know I have been rocking him to sleep all his life, so I do t expect to change overnight, just don't know how to make it gradual process.

Bed time: bath, bottle/nursing (I combifeed) and he is asleep in my arms then I transfer him to his cot (next to our bed). Past few weeks he go e from waking 1-2 for a feed to waking 3-5 times screaming and won't stop until I feed him or sometimes just putting back his dummy works. He sleeps from around 8.30pm to 5.30-6am. Not keen for hi sleeping in our bed, so just take him after he wakes up
Around 9 hours sleep during the night and 3 during the day, so I do th think he is having enough...

Sorry that its bit too long, but I don't know where to start, should I deal with daytime naps first or sort his night time. How on earth I make him go to bed awake and fell asleep and not screaming
I really want to do so etching about it now as i am going back to work when he will be 8 month and I can't see things improving without me doing so etching about it and I wo t be able to function if it will carry on like this
Thanks


----------



## Noelle610

Boo44 said:


> Haha mini kiwi I refer to you all as my 'forum friends' - whenever we have an issue I say to my hubby 'I'll just ask my forum friends...!' Think he trusts you all lol
> 
> Noelle when exactly are Charlotte's naps? We're on 2 a day and have been trying to reduce the duration in order to help his early morning wakings. I'm aiming for max of an hour am and an hour pm. Today his pm nap was a car nap and was an hour earlier than usual and only 30 mins long. He woke at 2pm. I was absolutely convinced he would need a power nap in order to get to his bedtime but he was so happy and absolutely fine. He was awake for 5hrs and 15 mins before bed! Seems too much to me.
> 
> Am not sure what the 'ideal' is as far as a nap that isn't too long or too short, and what sort of gap I should have before his bed?
> 
> We actually had a 7.30am this morning!!!!! I did go to him at 6am and gave his dummy once then straight back to sleep until 7.30. Fantastic and the latest morning we've had in months xx

So happy for you! It's 6:40am here and Charlotte is still sleeping. This is the latest she's slept in a long time . It's nice.

Naps are hard and you just have to kind of play around with it, but here's our general schedule. The naps range from 1-2 hours, but are generally closer to 1 hour/90 minutes now:

6:30am wake

9am-10am nap 1

1:30pm-3pm nap 2

7pm bedtime

Hope that helps! I try to do no more than 4 hours between last nap and bedtime. Anything longer and she tends to get overtired and wake up screaming 45 minutes after bedtime.


----------



## Noelle610

> Her night sleep is really good now. She is put down awake and takes herself to sleep. Usually one dream feed around midnight and she then sleeps through til 10 (it's not always been like this, this is a recent thing!)
> 
> Yes she is a late riser, she wakes between 9.30 and 10.30 each day....perhaps you are right, sleeping this late could be classed as her first nap of the day. I never thought of it like that before but sounds about right?
> I don't want to change this though, as it means I can wake naturally and then get all my morning jobs done by the time she wakes. I just wish her subsequent naps could be more than 30 mins a pop!

What time does she go to bed? If it's 8pm or earlier, she's definitely consolidating night sleep and her first nap. Some babies tend to do this! You can either leave it, or you can wake her no later than 7am to preserve that first nap. You may have more success doing that as the schedule will be a bit more age appropriate. 

I hear you on having the alone time though!


----------



## Noelle610

izzlesnizzle said:


> I went to bed armed with a plan last night. This 5am wake up thing has to stop. So I had set the alarm for 4.30am to go in and reposition her to slightly rouse her for her to enter a new sleep cycle and break the habit of waking up at 5, resetting her body clock.
> 
> HA! I think she must have heard me. Instead the little minx woke up at 3am and would not go back to sleep!
> 
> I downloaded an app on my phone yesterday of white noise. I put it on (awful sound) and sat with my hand through the bar with my hand on her tummy for 30 mins and eventually she went back to sleep until 6am. Then OH got up and put some toys in her cot and she had a little play then went back to sleep until 6.40am.
> 
> Tonight, im going to put her favourite toys in her cot, she can even have the remote control if she wants it (minus the batteries of course, don't want any nasty accidents!).
> 
> I wonder if her waking at 3 has broken the 5am habit without me having to do it for her? But I don want 3am to be the new 5am!
> 
> I think she was overtired from getting up at 5 the morning before and she only had just on 2 hrs of naps yesterday all in all. I find 2 hrs of naps doesn't help her night sleep. A baby her age is supposed to have 14 hrs sleep a day, shes only getting 12-13 because of the early wake ups so we are in a lose lose situation at the moment. But I will win win, I will haha!

I do think the waking likely broke her of it - she kind of used the "wake to sleep" technique on herself :haha: I accidentally dd this with Charlotte.... She had been waking 45 minutes after bedtime screaming for weeks for no obvious reason and the other night I woke her 30 minutes after bedtime accidentally by turning on my blow dryer. I didn't hear a peep from her the rest of the night!

I think you're onto something with the white noise. I'd play it all night long for her. I got a great white noise machine that I love and it's on whenever Charlotte sleeps - night and naps. I think it helps her and I also think it blocks out any noise in the house or from the street. I live in a loud neighborhood in the downtown area of my city, so it's a necessity.

I sometimes worry about the amount of sleep C gets as well. It seems to vary greatly from 13 hours to 15 hours daily.


----------



## Noelle610

Iren_iren said:


> I am starting to read this thread from the beginning as LO is sleeping in my arms..
> But few questions meanwhile...I just don't know where to start
> Here is our sleeping routine:
> 4 naps a day, first and last in my arms, 2 in between in his pram. It's not fun when the weather is bad, but I a more or less ok with that. The problem is when we are at home.
> He just won't get it, that he needs to sleep in his bed. I tried several times putting him there drowsy but awake and he ends up screaming, but its bit too early for CIO, so not keen to leave him there just cry. As soon as I pick him up, he nods off in my arms.
> I've tried put down pick up method, but just for a day. He just gets more frustrated and inconsolable.
> I know I have been rocking him to sleep all his life, so I do t expect to change overnight, just don't know how to make it gradual process.
> 
> Bed time: bath, bottle/nursing (I combifeed) and he is asleep in my arms then I transfer him to his cot (next to our bed). Past few weeks he go e from waking 1-2 for a feed to waking 3-5 times screaming and won't stop until I feed him or sometimes just putting back his dummy works. He sleeps from around 8.30pm to 5.30-6am. Not keen for hi sleeping in our bed, so just take him after he wakes up
> Around 9 hours sleep during the night and 3 during the day, so I do th think he is having enough...
> 
> Sorry that its bit too long, but I don't know where to start, should I deal with daytime naps first or sort his night time. How on earth I make him go to bed awake and fell asleep and not screaming
> I really want to do so etching about it now as i am going back to work when he will be 8 month and I can't see things improving without me doing so etching about it and I wo t be able to function if it will carry on like this
> Thanks

Hi! Welcome to our little group. I'd love to try and give you some recommendations - when does he wake for the day and how long are his naps? He's a bit young for sleep training, but I think you can first tweak your schedule and then work on some positive sleep associations to get him a bit more interested in the crib. I never thought my daughter would sleep in her crib. She loved her Rock n Play Sleeper and being in our room for quite some time. Now she's 10 months and sleeps happily in her crib all night!


----------



## Iren_iren

Noelle610 said:


> Iren_iren said:
> 
> 
> I am starting to read this thread from the beginning as LO is sleeping in my arms..
> But few questions meanwhile...I just don't know where to start
> Here is our sleeping routine:
> 4 naps a day, first and last in my arms, 2 in between in his pram. It's not fun when the weather is bad, but I a more or less ok with that. The problem is when we are at home.
> He just won't get it, that he needs to sleep in his bed. I tried several times putting him there drowsy but awake and he ends up screaming, but its bit too early for CIO, so not keen to leave him there just cry. As soon as I pick him up, he nods off in my arms.
> I've tried put down pick up method, but just for a day. He just gets more frustrated and inconsolable.
> I know I have been rocking him to sleep all his life, so I do t expect to change overnight, just don't know how to make it gradual process.
> 
> Bed time: bath, bottle/nursing (I combifeed) and he is asleep in my arms then I transfer him to his cot (next to our bed). Past few weeks he go e from waking 1-2 for a feed to waking 3-5 times screaming and won't stop until I feed him or sometimes just putting back his dummy works. He sleeps from around 8.30pm to 5.30-6am. Not keen for hi sleeping in our bed, so just take him after he wakes up
> Around 9 hours sleep during the night and 3 during the day, so I do th think he is having enough...
> 
> Sorry that its bit too long, but I don't know where to start, should I deal with daytime naps first or sort his night time. How on earth I make him go to bed awake and fell asleep and not screaming
> I really want to do so etching about it now as i am going back to work when he will be 8 month and I can't see things improving without me doing so etching about it and I wo t be able to function if it will carry on like this
> Thanks
> 
> Hi! Welcome to our little group. I'd love to try and give you some recommendations - when does he wake for the day and how long are his naps? He's a bit young for sleep training, but I think you can first tweak your schedule and then work on some positive sleep associations to get him a bit more interested in the crib. I never thought my daughter would sleep in her crib. She loved her Rock n Play Sleeper and being in our room for quite some time. Now she's 10 months and sleeps happily in her crib all night!Click to expand...

Thanks Noelle610!
6am he is up for the day, but that varies from 5.15 to 6.30 (on a rare good day:) if he naps in a pram that can be 1,5 (40min, then wakes up, look around and fells asleep again) and in my arms from 30 min to 2 hours.
Usually first nap 8-9am
Second 10.30-12 or 11 to 1 (with some awake time in between)
3rd around 3pm for about 30 min 
Last 5pm to 6 or past few days till 6.30pm
Would really love to hear your suggestions. It's great that you've manged to make your girl sleep in her crib and I did not realise how hard it could be


----------



## Shadowy Lady

ughhh last night was the worst!! She went to sleep at 6:30 pm and woke up again at 2:00 am coz she had pooped. I changed her and put her down but this time she would not go down until I nursed her 30 mins later (she usually would just go back to sleep). I was so wired by then that I couldn't sleep :( Then she woke up again at 5:30 am with another poop and again wanted to be nursed!!!

Let's just say I have been awake since 2 am. My head is a mess and I just feel like I'm caught at a dead end. No matter what I do sleep keeps getting worse...I just want to cry :'( How can sleep be so messy at 7 months when she used to be so good? Honestly I feel like there's a step forward and then two backward...


----------



## Iren_iren

Shadowy Lady said:


> ughhh last night was the worst!! She went to sleep at 6:30 pm and woke up again at 2:00 am coz she had pooped. I changed her and put her down but this time she would not go down until I nursed her 30 mins later (she usually would just go back to sleep). I was so wired by then that I couldn't sleep :( Then she woke up again at 5:30 am with another poop and again wanted to be nursed!!!
> 
> Let's just say I have been awake since 2 am. My head is a mess and I just feel like I'm caught at a dead end. No matter what I do sleep keeps getting worse...I just want to cry :'( How can sleep be so messy at 7 months when she used to be so good? Honestly I feel like there's a step forward and then two backward...

Off topic, but I remember you from 3rd trimester. How time flies! Your girl is gorgeous! Hope you'll crack the sleep soon! It's annoying when they poo during the night


----------



## polaris

Shadowy Lady said:


> ughhh last night was the worst!! She went to sleep at 6:30 pm and woke up again at 2:00 am coz she had pooped. I changed her and put her down but this time she would not go down until I nursed her 30 mins later (she usually would just go back to sleep). I was so wired by then that I couldn't sleep :( Then she woke up again at 5:30 am with another poop and again wanted to be nursed!!!
> 
> Let's just say I have been awake since 2 am. My head is a mess and I just feel like I'm caught at a dead end. No matter what I do sleep keeps getting worse...I just want to cry :'( How can sleep be so messy at 7 months when she used to be so good? Honestly I feel like there's a step forward and then two backward...

Hi hun, unfortunately baby sleep is just a bit like that. I think before you have children most people have the idea that newborns don't sleep very well but their sleep gradually gets better and better until they finally sleep through the night and then that's it. But the reality as we all know is very different.

I went through a big sleep regression at six months with DS, he had been almost sleeping through from about four months (just waking for one quick night feed at about 4 or 5 a.m.) but at six months he started randomly waking up multiple times a night for unknown reasons. It was very frustrating at the time but it did pass, I think it took about four weeks of disturbed sleep and then he went back to sleeping well. I would just try to stick to your normal routine with her as far as possible and hopefully things will soon return to normal. When I went through similar with DS (minus the poops!) I did my best not to feed him more than once a night but I know I had to feed him more often sometimes because he just wouldn't settle. Hang on in there, it will pass, honest, I think her digestive system just needs to settle down and then she will probably go back to sleeping well again.


----------



## Shadowy Lady

Iren - thank you so much! I remember you too...so nice to see you here again (or maybe not coz this is the terrible sleep thread lol)

Polaris - You are right...but honestly I've been going down the exact same road once a month for a while now. She'll sleep through one week, then start waking up again for one reason or another. It's been going on exactly like this since she was 3 months old (if you read this thread you'll see my old posts). It doesn't help that I have a few friends with babies around her age and none are waking up anymore or at least are a lot more consistent with the wakeups. I just didn't think I'd be here at 7 months post-baby :/

Though being sleep deprived does make me very negative too....


----------



## gaiagirl

Shadowy, I have only been feeling that way for a few weeks so you must be even more frustrated. But I know what you mean about one step forward, two back. It's so discouraging! I definitely didnt realize how NOT linear babies sleep is. Now I'm kinda just aiming for it to be better at 12 months with the hopes that that's a more realistic goal, lol.

Last night was sooo weird! I tried shorter awake periods between naps yesterday, and then he went for nap 4 at 5pm but decided to make it a longer one and woke at 6:30. So I tried for bed at 8:15...and he would NOT stay asleep! I think he needs more awake time before bed maybe?! He kept waking after a few minutes and he fought sleep UNTIL MIDNIGHT. He wasn't dazed or cranky just happy, chipper and wide awake. It was bizarre. He hasn't done that before!

Always something new...


----------



## Noelle610

Iren_iren said:


> Noelle610 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Iren_iren said:
> 
> 
> I am starting to read this thread from the beginning as LO is sleeping in my arms..
> But few questions meanwhile...I just don't know where to start
> Here is our sleeping routine:
> 4 naps a day, first and last in my arms, 2 in between in his pram. It's not fun when the weather is bad, but I a more or less ok with that. The problem is when we are at home.
> He just won't get it, that he needs to sleep in his bed. I tried several times putting him there drowsy but awake and he ends up screaming, but its bit too early for CIO, so not keen to leave him there just cry. As soon as I pick him up, he nods off in my arms.
> I've tried put down pick up method, but just for a day. He just gets more frustrated and inconsolable.
> I know I have been rocking him to sleep all his life, so I do t expect to change overnight, just don't know how to make it gradual process.
> 
> Bed time: bath, bottle/nursing (I combifeed) and he is asleep in my arms then I transfer him to his cot (next to our bed). Past few weeks he go e from waking 1-2 for a feed to waking 3-5 times screaming and won't stop until I feed him or sometimes just putting back his dummy works. He sleeps from around 8.30pm to 5.30-6am. Not keen for hi sleeping in our bed, so just take him after he wakes up
> Around 9 hours sleep during the night and 3 during the day, so I do th think he is having enough...
> 
> Sorry that its bit too long, but I don't know where to start, should I deal with daytime naps first or sort his night time. How on earth I make him go to bed awake and fell asleep and not screaming
> I really want to do so etching about it now as i am going back to work when he will be 8 month and I can't see things improving without me doing so etching about it and I wo t be able to function if it will carry on like this
> Thanks
> 
> Hi! Welcome to our little group. I'd love to try and give you some recommendations - when does he wake for the day and how long are his naps? He's a bit young for sleep training, but I think you can first tweak your schedule and then work on some positive sleep associations to get him a bit more interested in the crib. I never thought my daughter would sleep in her crib. She loved her Rock n Play Sleeper and being in our room for quite some time. Now she's 10 months and sleeps happily in her crib all night!Click to expand...
> 
> Thanks Noelle610!
> 6am he is up for the day, but that varies from 5.15 to 6.30 (on a rare good day:) if he naps in a pram that can be 1,5 (40min, then wakes up, look around and fells asleep again) and in my arms from 30 min to 2 hours.
> Usually first nap 8-9am
> Second 10.30-12 or 11 to 1 (with some awake time in between)
> 3rd around 3pm for about 30 min
> Last 5pm to 6 or past few days till 6.30pm
> Would really love to hear your suggestions. It's great that you've manged to make your girl sleep in her crib and I did not realise how hard it could beClick to expand...

Let me start by saying that 4 and 5 months is just a hard time for sleep in general. I know a sleep consultant who has helped me immensely and she calls months 4 and 5 "one big wonder week" (basically a huge growth spurt that can really affect sleep). So a lot of what you're going through is normal.

During the day I'd aim to have LO down after 90 minutes of awake time. You may want to try an earlier morning nap. That will minimize the possibility of him getting overtired and he will fight sleep less.

In terms of the crib, try creating a positive experience for LO during the day. Put him in there with some of his favorite toys and have some fun with him. Once he starts to enjoy the crib, you can trying putting him down there for naps first. You may sit with him at first and then gradually move your chair toward the door so that he gets used to sleeping independently.

Can he roll? If so, you may want to try putting him down on his tummy to sleep at night (fine if he is mobile). My daughter slept much better that way. In addition to your bedtime routine, I'd play loud white noise (either a white noise machine or app on your phone), make sure the room is dark (blackout blinds work great) and perhaps introduce a lovey to him. 

He will sleep independently eventually, I promise! Also, 2 or 3 night feeds at this age is totally within the range of normal.


----------



## Noelle610

Shadowy Lady, I'm sorry. I know how frustrating it can be to go back and forth. It's been a bit like that for us recently, but don't despair. I think these regressions get a bit easier as they get older, because they generally go back to sleeping well after the disruption if you don't stray too far from your routine. I wonder if Sofia is going through the 6 month growth spurt a bit on the late side and that's the reason she wanted to nurse last night.

Gaia, that's really interesting. Usually the early bedtime really helps the night sleep. Odd question, but can you count up the total amount of time he was awake during the day versus sleeping? I'm wondering if he needs more, I just don't know where that should go!


----------



## gaiagirl

Well, it was pretty much 90 min awake befor every 40min nap and one 80min one. Soooo 6 hours awake and 3.5 asleep. Then another 1.5-2 hours before attempted bedtime. I did try to extend the short naps as I often do by keeping it quiet/dark and rocking or nursing him but he was WIDE awake and woke up happy from each of the short naps!


----------



## gaiagirl

Also I have not noticed any big difference in night sleep compared to naps! Sometimes he naps amazing and the night is still crap and sometimes he barely naps and then has a good night! Lol


----------



## gaiagirl

I think he usually gets about 14 hours a day/night not including wakings. I know it should be 15 but I figure there's a bit of variation per individual so try not to stress myself out about it. I don't know what more I can do to get him more sleep, I've literally tried every possible variation! Haha


----------



## Iren_iren

Noelle610 said:


> Iren_iren said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Noelle610 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Iren_iren said:
> 
> 
> I am starting to read this thread from the beginning as LO is sleeping in my arms..
> But few questions meanwhile...I just don't know where to start
> Here is our sleeping routine:
> 4 naps a day, first and last in my arms, 2 in between in his pram. It's not fun when the weather is bad, but I a more or less ok with that. The problem is when we are at home.
> He just won't get it, that he needs to sleep in his bed. I tried several times putting him there drowsy but awake and he ends up screaming, but its bit too early for CIO, so not keen to leave him there just cry. As soon as I pick him up, he nods off in my arms.
> I've tried put down pick up method, but just for a day. He just gets more frustrated and inconsolable.
> I know I have been rocking him to sleep all his life, so I do t expect to change overnight, just don't know how to make it gradual process.
> 
> Bed time: bath, bottle/nursing (I combifeed) and he is asleep in my arms then I transfer him to his cot (next to our bed). Past few weeks he go e from waking 1-2 for a feed to waking 3-5 times screaming and won't stop until I feed him or sometimes just putting back his dummy works. He sleeps from around 8.30pm to 5.30-6am. Not keen for hi sleeping in our bed, so just take him after he wakes up
> Around 9 hours sleep during the night and 3 during the day, so I do th think he is having enough...
> 
> Sorry that its bit too long, but I don't know where to start, should I deal with daytime naps first or sort his night time. How on earth I make him go to bed awake and fell asleep and not screaming
> I really want to do so etching about it now as i am going back to work when he will be 8 month and I can't see things improving without me doing so etching about it and I wo t be able to function if it will carry on like this
> Thanks
> 
> Hi! Welcome to our little group. I'd love to try and give you some recommendations - when does he wake for the day and how long are his naps? He's a bit young for sleep training, but I think you can first tweak your schedule and then work on some positive sleep associations to get him a bit more interested in the crib. I never thought my daughter would sleep in her crib. She loved her Rock n Play Sleeper and being in our room for quite some time. Now she's 10 months and sleeps happily in her crib all night!Click to expand...
> 
> Thanks Noelle610!
> 6am he is up for the day, but that varies from 5.15 to 6.30 (on a rare good day:) if he naps in a pram that can be 1,5 (40min, then wakes up, look around and fells asleep again) and in my arms from 30 min to 2 hours.
> Usually first nap 8-9am
> Second 10.30-12 or 11 to 1 (with some awake time in between)
> 3rd around 3pm for about 30 min
> Last 5pm to 6 or past few days till 6.30pm
> Would really love to hear your suggestions. It's great that you've manged to make your girl sleep in her crib and I did not realise how hard it could beClick to expand...
> 
> Let me start by saying that 4 and 5 months is just a hard time for sleep in general. I know a sleep consultant who has helped me immensely and she calls months 4 and 5 "one big wonder week" (basically a huge growth spurt that can really affect sleep). So a lot of what you're going through is normal.
> 
> During the day I'd aim to have LO down after 90 minutes of awake time. You may want to try an earlier morning nap. That will minimize the possibility of him getting overtired and he will fight sleep less.
> 
> In terms of the crib, try creating a positive experience for LO during the day. Put him in there with some of his favorite toys and have some fun with him. Once he starts to enjoy the crib, you can trying putting him down there for naps first. You may sit with him at first and then gradually move your chair toward the door so that he gets used to sleeping independently.
> 
> Can he roll? If so, you may want to try putting him down on his tummy to sleep at night (fine if he is mobile). My daughter slept much better that way. In addition to your bedtime routine, I'd play loud white noise (either a white noise machine or app on your phone), make sure the room is dark (blackout blinds work great) and perhaps introduce a lovey to him.
> 
> He will sleep independently eventually, I promise! Also, 2 or 3 night feeds at this age is totally within the range of normal.Click to expand...

Thanks Noelle! I do feel that we are going through one big wonder week. Some days are good, but then it all goes downhill 
Just after posting here I noticed he was rubbing his eyes, so put in his cot and held my arm next to his cheek and he fell asleep, then I put my top next to him, so smells mummy and he slept for 40min all by himself in his bed! That never ever happened before!
I'll try to stick with 90 min rule, is 30-40 min nap ok? Or if he sleeps for 2 hours which can be if we outside, the next nap after 90 min anyway?
He has music mobile in his cot for mornings, but any music overstimulates him. We'll play more in his cot tomorrow and see how that goes. Also make the room darker, but OH is against white noise, so that's out.
Thanks again for the suggestions, i' ll be back here in a few days once try it out :thumbup:


----------



## MiniKiwi

Pretty huge progress here on day 2 of no walking and no feeding to sleep. Yesterday Mia properly self settled for a nap, we were out and I put her down in a pack n play at my dad's house and checked on her 10 minutes later and she was asleep, amazing!

Last night she was asleep within 3 minutes of being in her cot at 7pm. Then woke at 10pm, 1am and 3am but no motn party and no feeding or changing, just patting back to sleep.

I really enjoyed those troublesome tots articles, Noelle. They have been a big help to us, realising that all the walking to sleep is doing more harm than good. I'm just hoping that we continue to have success with this [-o&lt;


----------



## L-C

Just wanted bo tell someone, the past 6 weeks training have worked, my baby girl slept through the last two nights!!! Wahooooo, just hope she can manage a thrid so I can sleep rather than be so buzzed she did it.

Only problem we are now having is naps, I used to feed then, put her down awake and she would cry down a bit. I have dropped back to two feeds morning and night due to going back to work and so need to not feed her, DH gets her down but I think she expects it from me?? Any ideas??

Also need to not feed her in the night now even if she does wake, but shhhh'ing and patting does seem to work, which is how I got her to sleep through. My DS never just did it like this we had to offer him water instead of boobie.

Hope you all have restful nights xxx


----------



## Noelle610

Iren_iren said:


> Noelle610 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Iren_iren said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Noelle610 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Iren_iren said:
> 
> 
> I am starting to read this thread from the beginning as LO is sleeping in my arms..
> But few questions meanwhile...I just don't know where to start
> Here is our sleeping routine:
> 4 naps a day, first and last in my arms, 2 in between in his pram. It's not fun when the weather is bad, but I a more or less ok with that. The problem is when we are at home.
> He just won't get it, that he needs to sleep in his bed. I tried several times putting him there drowsy but awake and he ends up screaming, but its bit too early for CIO, so not keen to leave him there just cry. As soon as I pick him up, he nods off in my arms.
> I've tried put down pick up method, but just for a day. He just gets more frustrated and inconsolable.
> I know I have been rocking him to sleep all his life, so I do t expect to change overnight, just don't know how to make it gradual process.
> 
> Bed time: bath, bottle/nursing (I combifeed) and he is asleep in my arms then I transfer him to his cot (next to our bed). Past few weeks he go e from waking 1-2 for a feed to waking 3-5 times screaming and won't stop until I feed him or sometimes just putting back his dummy works. He sleeps from around 8.30pm to 5.30-6am. Not keen for hi sleeping in our bed, so just take him after he wakes up
> Around 9 hours sleep during the night and 3 during the day, so I do th think he is having enough...
> 
> Sorry that its bit too long, but I don't know where to start, should I deal with daytime naps first or sort his night time. How on earth I make him go to bed awake and fell asleep and not screaming
> I really want to do so etching about it now as i am going back to work when he will be 8 month and I can't see things improving without me doing so etching about it and I wo t be able to function if it will carry on like this
> Thanks
> 
> Hi! Welcome to our little group. I'd love to try and give you some recommendations - when does he wake for the day and how long are his naps? He's a bit young for sleep training, but I think you can first tweak your schedule and then work on some positive sleep associations to get him a bit more interested in the crib. I never thought my daughter would sleep in her crib. She loved her Rock n Play Sleeper and being in our room for quite some time. Now she's 10 months and sleeps happily in her crib all night!Click to expand...
> 
> Thanks Noelle610!
> 6am he is up for the day, but that varies from 5.15 to 6.30 (on a rare good day:) if he naps in a pram that can be 1,5 (40min, then wakes up, look around and fells asleep again) and in my arms from 30 min to 2 hours.
> Usually first nap 8-9am
> Second 10.30-12 or 11 to 1 (with some awake time in between)
> 3rd around 3pm for about 30 min
> Last 5pm to 6 or past few days till 6.30pm
> Would really love to hear your suggestions. It's great that you've manged to make your girl sleep in her crib and I did not realise how hard it could beClick to expand...
> 
> Let me start by saying that 4 and 5 months is just a hard time for sleep in general. I know a sleep consultant who has helped me immensely and she calls months 4 and 5 "one big wonder week" (basically a huge growth spurt that can really affect sleep). So a lot of what you're going through is normal.
> 
> During the day I'd aim to have LO down after 90 minutes of awake time. You may want to try an earlier morning nap. That will minimize the possibility of him getting overtired and he will fight sleep less.
> 
> In terms of the crib, try creating a positive experience for LO during the day. Put him in there with some of his favorite toys and have some fun with him. Once he starts to enjoy the crib, you can trying putting him down there for naps first. You may sit with him at first and then gradually move your chair toward the door so that he gets used to sleeping independently.
> 
> Can he roll? If so, you may want to try putting him down on his tummy to sleep at night (fine if he is mobile). My daughter slept much better that way. In addition to your bedtime routine, I'd play loud white noise (either a white noise machine or app on your phone), make sure the room is dark (blackout blinds work great) and perhaps introduce a lovey to him.
> 
> He will sleep independently eventually, I promise! Also, 2 or 3 night feeds at this age is totally within the range of normal.Click to expand...
> 
> Thanks Noelle! I do feel that we are going through one big wonder week. Some days are good, but then it all goes downhill
> Just after posting here I noticed he was rubbing his eyes, so put in his cot and held my arm next to his cheek and he fell asleep, then I put my top next to him, so smells mummy and he slept for 40min all by himself in his bed! That never ever happened before!
> I'll try to stick with 90 min rule, is 30-40 min nap ok? Or if he sleeps for 2 hours which can be if we outside, the next nap after 90 min anyway?
> He has music mobile in his cot for mornings, but any music overstimulates him. We'll play more in his cot tomorrow and see how that goes. Also make the room darker, but OH is against white noise, so that's out.
> Thanks again for the suggestions, i' ll be back here in a few days once try it out :thumbup:Click to expand...

Oh how perfect! Definitely put something that smells of you in the crib. You can even sprinkle it with a few drops of breast milk. I used to sleep with my DD's lovey for a few nights (she has two, so I could interchange them).

I would stick with the 90 minute rule even if the nap is long. 30-40 minute naps are fine too and actually very common at this age! Around 6 months and/or when LO drops to 2 naps, they will likely lengthen on their own. 

Why is your OH against white noise, just out of curiosity? That's not one I've heard before, though my DH has some odd ideas too :haha:

Oh, and my LO also found the mobile stimulating :)


----------



## Noelle610

Gaia, truthfully at that age I didn't see a huge correlation between nights and naps either :shrug: Now there's a huge correlation.

I don't think I've shared this link with you yet, but it's a good one: Nap/wake time recommendations by age and all that good stuff:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/11GHo4keUb2TVJUlSL1kD6HQcEgaNFBmzoQoOzcpcyas/edit?hl=en&authkey=CPXE1bsO&pli=1#


----------



## Noelle610

MiniKiwi said:


> Pretty huge progress here on day 2 of no walking and no feeding to sleep. Yesterday Mia properly self settled for a nap, we were out and I put her down in a pack n play at my dad's house and checked on her 10 minutes later and she was asleep, amazing!
> 
> Last night she was asleep within 3 minutes of being in her cot at 7pm. Then woke at 10pm, 1am and 3am but no motn party and no feeding or changing, just patting back to sleep.
> 
> I really enjoyed those troublesome tots articles, Noelle. They have been a big help to us, realising that all the walking to sleep is doing more harm than good. I'm just hoping that we continue to have success with this [-o&lt;

WOW! Sounds like you are both doing great.

So happy you enjoyed the Troublesome Tots articles! I really think it's a great blog. It's very informative, but not super bias in terms of CIO or non-CIO methods.


----------



## Noelle610

L-C said:


> Just wanted bo tell someone, the past 6 weeks training have worked, my baby girl slept through the last two nights!!! Wahooooo, just hope she can manage a thrid so I can sleep rather than be so buzzed she did it.
> 
> Only problem we are now having is naps, I used to feed then, put her down awake and she would cry down a bit. I have dropped back to two feeds morning and night due to going back to work and so need to not feed her, DH gets her down but I think she expects it from me?? Any ideas??
> 
> Also need to not feed her in the night now even if she does wake, but shhhh'ing and patting does seem to work, which is how I got her to sleep through. My DS never just did it like this we had to offer him water instead of boobie.
> 
> Hope you all have restful nights xxx

Wahooooo!!! I'm thrilled for you.

Do you have a nap time routine? Maybe you could replace the feed with something you and DH can both do consistently, like a story. 

I got my daughter down to one night feed at 6 months and did something similar with the shh/pat. It worked well! I was surprised how well.


----------



## L-C

thanks noelle, have been thinking that, I'm hoping a few days in and she'll forgte we did it lol, not sure if that's wishful thinking, but will def try a story to replace the feed. We're really hot on routines and they do work it's just replacing that one when she can probably smell my milk. Feel so hopeless everytime, you go two steps forward and one back and it throws me when a routine changes, I need them as much as she does xx


----------



## Noelle610

Oh, I hear you L-C! We're big on routines here, too. I bet she adjusts more quickly than you think - babies are pretty adaptable.


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## L-C

I really hope so, hate not being the boss ha ha


----------



## Shadowy Lady

Noelle610 said:


> Gaia, truthfully at that age I didn't see a huge correlation between nights and naps either :shrug: Now there's a huge correlation.
> 
> I don't think I've shared this link with you yet, but it's a good one: Nap/wake time recommendations by age and all that good stuff:
> 
> https://docs.google.com/document/d/11GHo4keUb2TVJUlSL1kD6HQcEgaNFBmzoQoOzcpcyas/edit?hl=en&authkey=CPXE1bsO&pli=1#

I enjoyed reading this link Noelle evethough it was meant for Gaia:thumbup: I'm just trying to look at last night as a one off. My DH is so relaxed about this, he's like "well, babies can't sleep like adults." He doesn't understand my frustration at all. Mind you he's also much better rested.

Sofia has napped poorly today which is odd for her. She napped for an hour around 10:30 am and then 30 mins around 2 pm. Who knows what tonight will bring:coffee:


----------



## gaiagirl

Yes I've seen it, but was just thinking id like to see it again.

Shadowy I with I could just adopt your hubby's attitude, because honestly sometimes it feels like I expel way too much energy on analyzing and agonizing over his sleep habits. But at the same time, it's my nature to look for a fix!

It's annoying to me though, that the moms I know with the 'best' sleepers are the ones who haven't read a thing and don't know any of those recommendations!

Sigh...my baby is sooo amazing and I wouldn't trade him for anyone else but he is just not one of those babies that adopts adult sleep habits quickly! Lol


----------



## polaris

Gaiagirl, I think that is because if your baby is a naturally good sleeper you are not going to bother reading books about baby sleep patterns LOL. My SIL has twin girls who slept through the night for 12 hours from 12 weeks without her having to do anything in particular to encourage it. She's no idea how lucky she is!


----------



## Iren_iren

Noelle610 said:


> Iren_iren said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Noelle610 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Iren_iren said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Noelle610 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Iren_iren said:
> 
> 
> I am starting to read this thread from the beginning as LO is sleeping in my arms..
> But few questions meanwhile...I just don't know where to start
> Here is our sleeping routine:
> 4 naps a day, first and last in my arms, 2 in between in his pram. It's not fun when the weather is bad, but I a more or less ok with that. The problem is when we are at home.
> He just won't get it, that he needs to sleep in his bed. I tried several times putting him there drowsy but awake and he ends up screaming, but its bit too early for CIO, so not keen to leave him there just cry. As soon as I pick him up, he nods off in my arms.
> I've tried put down pick up method, but just for a day. He just gets more frustrated and inconsolable.
> I know I have been rocking him to sleep all his life, so I do t expect to change overnight, just don't know how to make it gradual process.
> 
> Bed time: bath, bottle/nursing (I combifeed) and he is asleep in my arms then I transfer him to his cot (next to our bed). Past few weeks he go e from waking 1-2 for a feed to waking 3-5 times screaming and won't stop until I feed him or sometimes just putting back his dummy works. He sleeps from around 8.30pm to 5.30-6am. Not keen for hi sleeping in our bed, so just take him after he wakes up
> Around 9 hours sleep during the night and 3 during the day, so I do th think he is having enough...
> 
> Sorry that its bit too long, but I don't know where to start, should I deal with daytime naps first or sort his night time. How on earth I make him go to bed awake and fell asleep and not screaming
> I really want to do so etching about it now as i am going back to work when he will be 8 month and I can't see things improving without me doing so etching about it and I wo t be able to function if it will carry on like this
> Thanks
> 
> Hi! Welcome to our little group. I'd love to try and give you some recommendations - when does he wake for the day and how long are his naps? He's a bit young for sleep training, but I think you can first tweak your schedule and then work on some positive sleep associations to get him a bit more interested in the crib. I never thought my daughter would sleep in her crib. She loved her Rock n Play Sleeper and being in our room for quite some time. Now she's 10 months and sleeps happily in her crib all night!Click to expand...
> 
> Thanks Noelle610!
> 6am he is up for the day, but that varies from 5.15 to 6.30 (on a rare good day:) if he naps in a pram that can be 1,5 (40min, then wakes up, look around and fells asleep again) and in my arms from 30 min to 2 hours.
> Usually first nap 8-9am
> Second 10.30-12 or 11 to 1 (with some awake time in between)
> 3rd around 3pm for about 30 min
> Last 5pm to 6 or past few days till 6.30pm
> Would really love to hear your suggestions. It's great that you've manged to make your girl sleep in her crib and I did not realise how hard it could beClick to expand...
> 
> Let me start by saying that 4 and 5 months is just a hard time for sleep in general. I know a sleep consultant who has helped me immensely and she calls months 4 and 5 "one big wonder week" (basically a huge growth spurt that can really affect sleep). So a lot of what you're going through is normal.
> 
> During the day I'd aim to have LO down after 90 minutes of awake time. You may want to try an earlier morning nap. That will minimize the possibility of him getting overtired and he will fight sleep less.
> 
> In terms of the crib, try creating a positive experience for LO during the day. Put him in there with some of his favorite toys and have some fun with him. Once he starts to enjoy the crib, you can trying putting him down there for naps first. You may sit with him at first and then gradually move your chair toward the door so that he gets used to sleeping independently.
> 
> Can he roll? If so, you may want to try putting him down on his tummy to sleep at night (fine if he is mobile). My daughter slept much better that way. In addition to your bedtime routine, I'd play loud white noise (either a white noise machine or app on your phone), make sure the room is dark (blackout blinds work great) and perhaps introduce a lovey to him.
> 
> He will sleep independently eventually, I promise! Also, 2 or 3 night feeds at this age is totally within the range of normal.Click to expand...
> 
> Thanks Noelle! I do feel that we are going through one big wonder week. Some days are good, but then it all goes downhill
> Just after posting here I noticed he was rubbing his eyes, so put in his cot and held my arm next to his cheek and he fell asleep, then I put my top next to him, so smells mummy and he slept for 40min all by himself in his bed! That never ever happened before!
> I'll try to stick with 90 min rule, is 30-40 min nap ok? Or if he sleeps for 2 hours which can be if we outside, the next nap after 90 min anyway?
> He has music mobile in his cot for mornings, but any music overstimulates him. We'll play more in his cot tomorrow and see how that goes. Also make the room darker, but OH is against white noise, so that's out.
> Thanks again for the suggestions, i' ll be back here in a few days once try it out :thumbup:Click to expand...
> 
> Oh how perfect! Definitely put something that smells of you in the crib. You can even sprinkle it with a few drops of breast milk. I used to sleep with my DD's lovey for a few nights (she has two, so I could interchange them).
> 
> I would stick with the 90 minute rule even if the nap is long. 30-40 minute naps are fine too and actually very common at this age! Around 6 months and/or when LO drops to 2 naps, they will likely lengthen on their own.
> 
> Why is your OH against white noise, just out of curiosity? That's not one I've heard before, though my DH has some odd ideas too :haha:
> 
> Oh, and my LO also found the mobile stimulating :)Click to expand...

I'll take his bunny in bed with me today :haha:
We have used white noise a lot when Lucas was newborn, but OH for some reason thinks that this noise can be damaging to his brains:dohh: and especially when played on mobile phone. But I still secretly use it when on my own :winkwink:
Just looked at the doc that you have posted for someone else and it confirms that LO is not getting enough sleep, only 9 hours top during the night instead of 11...earliest we could put him to bed is 8pm, but he always wakes up at 6am, lets see if blackouts will help here to stretch that till 7am which was perfect
( when Lucas was newborn, he would sleep till 8am and I was complaining that this is early..if only I knew what will come:haha:


----------



## pompeyvix

Noelle610 said:


> Her night sleep is really good now. She is put down awake and takes herself to sleep. Usually one dream feed around midnight and she then sleeps through til 10 (it's not always been like this, this is a recent thing!)
> 
> Yes she is a late riser, she wakes between 9.30 and 10.30 each day....perhaps you are right, sleeping this late could be classed as her first nap of the day. I never thought of it like that before but sounds about right?
> I don't want to change this though, as it means I can wake naturally and then get all my morning jobs done by the time she wakes. I just wish her subsequent naps could be more than 30 mins a pop!
> 
> What time does she go to bed? If it's 8pm or earlier, she's definitely consolidating night sleep and her first nap. Some babies tend to do this! You can either leave it, or you can wake her no later than 7am to preserve that first nap. You may have more success doing that as the schedule will be a bit more age appropriate.
> 
> I hear you on having the alone time though!Click to expand...

She's in bed by 7.45pm but doesn't always fall straight to sleep. She is usually asleep between 8 and 8.30pm.

I definitely won't be up and waking her at 7...the very thought! I know her sleep pattens will always be changing so for now I am going to leave her to wake up late.

Based on that theory then, I guess she won't need any more than 1 or 2 naps during the day? Does one or two 30 min daytime nap sound about right then?


----------



## gaiagirl

You're right Polaris! And I have a few friends like that, their Facebook statuses about it drive me nuts!


----------



## bananaz

MiniKiwi said:


> Pretty huge progress here on day 2 of no walking and no feeding to sleep. Yesterday Mia properly self settled for a nap, we were out and I put her down in a pack n play at my dad's house and checked on her 10 minutes later and she was asleep, amazing!
> 
> Last night she was asleep within 3 minutes of being in her cot at 7pm. Then woke at 10pm, 1am and 3am but no motn party and no feeding or changing, just patting back to sleep.
> 
> I really enjoyed those troublesome tots articles, Noelle. They have been a big help to us, realising that all the walking to sleep is doing more harm than good. I'm just hoping that we continue to have success with this [-o&lt;

Holy cow, that's amazing! Go Mia!! :thumbup:


----------



## MiniKiwi

Those of you with older, self settling babies - do they crawl, stand or sit in their cots before they fall asleep? Or are they tired enough that they just lie there until they sleep?


----------



## bananaz

MiniKiwi said:


> Those of you with older, self settling babies - do they crawl, stand or sit in their cots before they fall asleep? Or are they tired enough that they just lie there until they sleep?

Usually Elsie will roam her crib for a few minutes before lying down, and sometimes she'll stand at one end dangling her toys over the side.


----------



## MiniKiwi

Aww dangling her toys, Elsie looks and sounds like such a character :) 

We failed at self settling today, I definitely let her try but she was just yelling and screaming and bouncing on the side of her cot in the end. So I just patted and shhhed her and she went to sleep quickly. Is that better than walking or feeding to sleep though? Is it teaching her to self settle? I mean, I'm still right there and helping her - what is the difference?


----------



## bananaz

MiniKiwi said:


> Aww dangling her toys, Elsie looks and sounds like such a character :)
> 
> We failed at self settling today, I definitely let her try but she was just yelling and screaming and bouncing on the side of her cot in the end. So I just patted and shhhed her and she went to sleep quickly. Is that better than walking or feeding to sleep though? Is it teaching her to self settle? I mean, I'm still right there and helping her - what is the difference?

Yeah, she's a funny one for sure!

I think shush-patting to sleep is a still a big step forward for Mia for a couple of reasons: 1) she's going to sleep in her crib, not in your arms, and 2) it's a lot easier to quickly wean off of shush-patting than it is other sleep associations because the intervention is already relatively minimal to begin with. 

I would continue giving her time to see if she'll go to sleep on her own first because she's already shown she can do it (which is so so awesome!) but if it seems like she's getting wound up then I don't think a little shush-patting is a terrible thing, just try to keep it to a minimum and stop before she actually falls asleep when possible.


----------



## Larkspur

Nice work, MiniKiwi! Mia is doing great!

I forgot to answer you earlier about the daylight savings change. It's next Sunday night, Easter Sunday. I was a bit worried about the change but I am going to do something a bit weird, I'm delaying the change till mid-morning instead of 2am on the Monday, and am just going to 'force' an extra hour of nap on LO however I can, and then change the time and proceed as normal.

Not too much to report here, though Rafe just went down for the fourth night running coming off nursing drowsy but awake, drifting off while held (no rocking) and going into his cot borderline asleep but not quite asleep... He'll shift and flicker his eyes as I put him in, but then relax and pass out. Making our way slowly towards putting down drowsy but awake, and eventually tired but awake.


----------



## MiniKiwi

Thanks bananaz, that makes heaps of sense. I just put Mia down for the night and it took 2 minutes max, this is just so awesome. I wouldn't dread nap and night times if they continued to be like this :D

Ty Larkspur, I think you might be onto something with the time change there, I'm going to do the same thing! Good to hear you guys are still making progress :thumbup:


----------



## Boo44

We've had another couple of 6am starts here. It seems so random. But very typical that he does it on a weekend! :dohh: Yesterday was 'perfect' as in he had 1 hour morning nap and 45 mins pm. I have cut these down slightly as I noticed he slept later when he mapped slightly less. But not any more I guess!

I looked at that chart you posted Noelle and he is an 11hr a night sleeper for sure. So does that mean he should have 3hrs of napping and I should actually let him have 90 mins morning and afternoon?! Argh just when you think it's all figured out...!

I think he's cold on a morning but he has long sleeved vest, fleecey sleep suit, 2.5 tog bag and a blanket! The bloody weather just needs to improve already as I don't think I can actually dress him in any more!! 

Our clocks go forward next wk so we'll see how that messes things up....!



Yay mini I am soooo happy for you! Go girl!


----------



## Larkspur

Boo44 said:


> I think he's cold on a morning but he has long sleeved vest, fleecey sleep suit, 2.5 tog bag and a blanket!

Jeepers woman, where do you live... Antarctica?!?


----------



## AngelUK

Boo that seems a little warm to me actually? Do you have a room thermometer? Unless it gets very cold at night, such as maybe 16C I would think that maybe he is too warm. My boys sleep in a room that is 20C maybe 19C at the lowest and they sleep in their short sleeved undies, long sleeved romper or babygro and then a 2.5 tog sleeping bag and that is it. But I suppose you would have noticed if he was sweaty when you got him up. 

Bananaz I just wanted to say that I love your avvie. She is such an adorable little girl!


----------



## izzlesnizzle

Boo44 said:


> We've had another couple of 6am starts here. It seems so random. But very typical that he does it on a weekend! :dohh: Yesterday was 'perfect' as in he had 1 hour morning nap and 45 mins pm. I have cut these down slightly as I noticed he slept later when he mapped slightly less. But not any more I guess!
> 
> I looked at that chart you posted Noelle and he is an 11hr a night sleeper for sure. So does that mean he should have 3hrs of napping and I should actually let him have 90 mins morning and afternoon?! Argh just when you think it's all figured out...!
> 
> I think he's cold on a morning but he has long sleeved vest, fleecey sleep suit, 2.5 tog bag and a blanket! The bloody weather just needs to improve already as I don't think I can actually dress him in any more!!
> 
> Our clocks go forward next wk so we'll see how that messes things up....!
> 
> 
> 
> Yay mini I am soooo happy for you! Go girl!

Oh the clocks! I don't even want to think about it! But surely it cant be any worse than when the clocks went back.

Im finding LO's room is freezing in the morning. Her face and hands are like ice. It says 16 degrees in there. OH has re set the heating to come on for a couple of hours in the night but its still so cold in there. She has a long sleeved vest, sleep suit and 2.5 tog gro bag. I cant put gloves on her hands coz she likes to suck her fingers to settle herself.

She was up at 5.08am this morning. She had bad diarrohea and needed a full strip down. She was not happy! Put her back in her cot with the white noise but she was having none of it so ended up in bed with us again but did go back to sleep until 7.15am.

These teething nappies are horrific. I think shes cutting her bottom tooth and shes had a few pretty awful nappies lately but this one was just nasty and had exploded all over her. 

Anyone know if having a red nose is a teething symptom too? Her nose is often red aswell as her cheeks? And have your babies been having awful nappies when cutting their teeth too?


----------



## Boo44

Lol! No north England haha!!

Since November his normal is exactly what you described angel. But it's been really cold here recently and I've added the blanket. Just a thin one. His room temp drops to 17 overnight no matter how late we have the heating on, and I don't really want it to actually be on overnight as it's loud and clunky :)

On a morning at the mo his room feels cold when I go in to get him, an his hands are icey. His torso is a nice temp though so I know hands aren't that important. And he's definitely not sweaty....


----------



## Boo44

Izzlesnizzle - jack has his bottom two teeth but his top two are perilously close to breaking through and he's been really chewy and grumpy with them. He's not having diarrhoea but I swear some days recently he does like 6 poops! Crazy mental! I'm putting it down to teeth.... Not surprisingly he has a bit of nappy rash too xx


----------



## izzlesnizzle

Just looking at that sleep chart Noelle posted. Do you all wait 15 mins before you go to them in the night? 15 mins would seem like hours in the quiet, dark house in the middle of the night. I don't usually run in at the slightest sound. I probably wait a little while but off the top of my head (im not clock watching in the night) I probably wait 5 mins before going but she always seems to get louder and doesn't settle.

Should we be waiting 15 mins before going? Seems such a long time and im pretty sure she would be in a right old state by then and probably got herself in such a pickle that she would be wide awake!


----------



## Boo44

izzlesnizzle said:


> Just looking at that sleep chart Noelle posted. Do you all wait 15 mins before you go to them in the night? 15 mins would seem like hours in the quiet, dark house in the middle of the night. I don't usually run in at the slightest sound. I probably wait a little while but off the top of my head (im not clock watching in the night) I probably wait 5 mins before going but she always seems to get louder and doesn't settle.
> 
> Should we be waiting 15 mins before going? Seems such a long time and im pretty sure she would be in a right old state by then and probably got herself in such a pickle that she would be wide awake!

I was surprised by that too! I know that I don't wait that long. In fact when I hear the dreaded sounds at 6am I'm inclined to run straight in, as occasionally if I catch him just as he's stirring, and manage to find his lovey for him and get him comfy and put the dummy in, sometimes he'll go until 7.30 like he did on thurs! I mean, sometimes he just doesn't go back over. Maybe I should be just leaving him...?


----------



## izzlesnizzle

That's the thing- if I get to her quick enough I stand a chance of her going back to sleep. If I leave her too long, ive had it, shes wide awake and wont go back to sleep. Then ive woken myself up too from lying there for 15 mins listening to the horrible sound of her crying. Then we're properly up for the day coz we're both wide awake and shes a complete misery until nap time. I don't like starting my day like that.


----------



## Noelle610

Hi all. So much to catch up on! I'm happy to hear about this great progress MiniKiwi and Larkspur. Long may it continue!

Izzles, to answer your question, I don't wait 15 minutes before going to Charlotte. I think the idea is that you don't wake them unintentionally during partial arousals since all babies make a bit of noise when transitioning through sleep cycles. I do try to wait 5 minutes or so (I'm not good about it though) to see if she will put herself back to sleep.

Overall, the sleep chart is just a guide. You have to adjust it based on your baby's needs, which are always changing so it's kind of a pain :haha:


----------



## NotNic

MiniKiwi said:


> Those of you with older, self settling babies - do they crawl, stand or sit in their cots before they fall asleep? Or are they tired enough that they just lie there until they sleep?

Bit of both. Sometimes he is tired enough that he will go straight to sleep, but mostly he likes to crawl to the top of the cot to select a soft toy to sleep with and then plays for a bit. If he stands though I have to lay him back down otherwise he just bounces up and down and wakes himself up.


----------



## VikkiD

Not posted here before but after a bit of advice lo as never been a great sleeper but we did go through a couple of months of sleeping through from 8 till 6. Since Christmas that's all gone to pot an now lo will wake several times I night I do go straight into him which I know I shouldn't I pop his dummy back in an give him his comforter an back to sleep he goes 1hr to 2hr he will cry again so I do the same an this goes on all night sometime he won't even do an hour. I have tried earlier bedtime makes no difference at all. Currently he wakes around 5.30 will have a 7oz bottle he then will have 3 meals an 2 more 7oz bottles during the day. Naps are not good just gone down to 2 a day mostly 40 mins if I am very lucky 1-1.5hr this is rare though. These naps are usually taken at 9 an 1 an bedtime is 6-6:30. 
I really do not know what else to try I was thinking of trying another late nap an putting bedtime back a bit to 8 this use to work before Christmas I really don't know what else to try any advice?


----------



## Noelle610

VikkiD said:


> Not posted here before but after a bit of advice lo as never been a great sleeper but we did go through a couple of months of sleeping through from 8 till 6. Since Christmas that's all gone to pot an now lo will wake several times I night I do go straight into him which I know I shouldn't I pop his dummy back in an give him his comforter an back to sleep he goes 1hr to 2hr he will cry again so I do the same an this goes on all night sometime he won't even do an hour. I have tried earlier bedtime makes no difference at all. Currently he wakes around 5.30 will have a 7oz bottle he then will have 3 meals an 2 more 7oz bottles during the day. Naps are not good just gone down to 2 a day mostly 40 mins if I am very lucky 1-1.5hr this is rare though. These naps are usually taken at 9 an 1 an bedtime is 6-6:30.
> I really do not know what else to try I was thinking of trying another late nap an putting bedtime back a bit to 8 this use to work before Christmas I really don't know what else to try any advice?

Hi :flower: Do you think he's waking for his pacifier? I'm thinking it may have become a dependence.


----------



## Noelle610

NotNic said:


> MiniKiwi said:
> 
> 
> Those of you with older, self settling babies - do they crawl, stand or sit in their cots before they fall asleep? Or are they tired enough that they just lie there until they sleep?
> 
> Bit of both. Sometimes he is tired enough that he will go straight to sleep, but mostly he likes to crawl to the top of the cot to select a soft toy to sleep with and then plays for a bit. If he stands though I have to lay him back down otherwise he just bounces up and down and wakes himself up.Click to expand...

WSS. If she's really tired, she'll go right to sleep, but she will sometimes crawl around a bit. I need to lay her down if she stands. I just go in and say, "It's night night time, mommy will see you in the morning".


----------



## Shadowy Lady

So we had another pooping episode at midnight exactly but she did sleep till 8 am after that. I managed to sleep the same stretch too so I feel better.

Still figuring out this poop issue. Nap every 3 hour didn't fix it :(


----------



## VikkiD

Noelle610 said:


> VikkiD said:
> 
> 
> Not posted here before but after a bit of advice lo as never been a great sleeper but we did go through a couple of months of sleeping through from 8 till 6. Since Christmas that's all gone to pot an now lo will wake several times I night I do go straight into him which I know I shouldn't I pop his dummy back in an give him his comforter an back to sleep he goes 1hr to 2hr he will cry again so I do the same an this goes on all night sometime he won't even do an hour. I have tried earlier bedtime makes no difference at all. Currently he wakes around 5.30 will have a 7oz bottle he then will have 3 meals an 2 more 7oz bottles during the day. Naps are not good just gone down to 2 a day mostly 40 mins if I am very lucky 1-1.5hr this is rare though. These naps are usually taken at 9 an 1 an bedtime is 6-6:30.
> I really do not know what else to try I was thinking of trying another late nap an putting bedtime back a bit to 8 this use to work before Christmas I really don't know what else to try any advice?
> 
> Hi :flower: Do you think he's waking for his pacifier? I'm thinking it may have become a dependence.Click to expand...

That's what I was thinking as he only as it for naps an bedtime. He did suck his thumb before we gave him the pacifier.


----------



## Noelle610

VikkiD said:


> Noelle610 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> VikkiD said:
> 
> 
> Not posted here before but after a bit of advice lo as never been a great sleeper but we did go through a couple of months of sleeping through from 8 till 6. Since Christmas that's all gone to pot an now lo will wake several times I night I do go straight into him which I know I shouldn't I pop his dummy back in an give him his comforter an back to sleep he goes 1hr to 2hr he will cry again so I do the same an this goes on all night sometime he won't even do an hour. I have tried earlier bedtime makes no difference at all. Currently he wakes around 5.30 will have a 7oz bottle he then will have 3 meals an 2 more 7oz bottles during the day. Naps are not good just gone down to 2 a day mostly 40 mins if I am very lucky 1-1.5hr this is rare though. These naps are usually taken at 9 an 1 an bedtime is 6-6:30.
> I really do not know what else to try I was thinking of trying another late nap an putting bedtime back a bit to 8 this use to work before Christmas I really don't know what else to try any advice?
> 
> Hi :flower: Do you think he's waking for his pacifier? I'm thinking it may have become a dependence.Click to expand...
> 
> That's what I was thinking as he only as it for naps an bedtime. He did suck his thumb before we gave him the pacifier.Click to expand...

I'd get rid of it. You'll have a few tough nights, but I bet he sleeps better when he's weaned of it. Good luck mama!


----------



## VikkiD

Noelle610 said:


> VikkiD said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Noelle610 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> VikkiD said:
> 
> 
> Not posted here before but after a bit of advice lo as never been a great sleeper but we did go through a couple of months of sleeping through from 8 till 6. Since Christmas that's all gone to pot an now lo will wake several times I night I do go straight into him which I know I shouldn't I pop his dummy back in an give him his comforter an back to sleep he goes 1hr to 2hr he will cry again so I do the same an this goes on all night sometime he won't even do an hour. I have tried earlier bedtime makes no difference at all. Currently he wakes around 5.30 will have a 7oz bottle he then will have 3 meals an 2 more 7oz bottles during the day. Naps are not good just gone down to 2 a day mostly 40 mins if I am very lucky 1-1.5hr this is rare though. These naps are usually taken at 9 an 1 an bedtime is 6-6:30.
> I really do not know what else to try I was thinking of trying another late nap an putting bedtime back a bit to 8 this use to work before Christmas I really don't know what else to try any advice?
> 
> Hi :flower: Do you think he's waking for his pacifier? I'm thinking it may have become a dependence.Click to expand...
> 
> That's what I was thinking as he only as it for naps an bedtime. He did suck his thumb before we gave him the pacifier.Click to expand...
> 
> I'd get rid of it. You'll have a few tough nights, but I bet he sleeps better when he's weaned of it. Good luck mama!Click to expand...

Thanks I did try this morning at nap time but he shoved his ted so far in his mouth I gave in. I think bedtime we could do it as he's half asleep when he finishes his bottle at wake ups would you just place your hand on his chest to try get him back to sleep


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## MiniKiwi

Shadowy, glad you managed to get a nice stretch last night :)

Another amazing night here! Mia went to bed at 7pm with 2 minutes shhhing, woke at 2 for 20 minutes but no feeding or changing and is still asleep at 6am :) I'm so happy! I woke up at 4:30 though... :dohh:

Eta.. that's ONE night waking!! ONE!!!! lol!


----------



## VikkiD

MiniKiwi said:


> Shadowy, glad you managed to get a nice stretch last night :)
> 
> Another amazing night here! Mia went to bed at 7pm with 2 minutes shhhing, woke at 2 for 20 minutes but no feeding or changing and is still asleep at 6am :) I'm so happy! I woke up at 4:30 though... :dohh:
> 
> Eta.. that's ONE night waking!! ONE!!!! lol!

That's great can I ask what you have been doing to help your lo sleep better


----------



## MiniKiwi

She used to go to bed at 6pm, but we've stretched out her naps a bit and made her bedtime 7pm each night. That seemed to help a little. I've put a night light on in the room and put a few teddies in her cot for her to snuggle.

But the main thing that's made a difference is shhhing & patting her to sleep, instead of walking/rocking and putting her down fast asleep. Now I feed her, burp her and put her down awake with one hand on her tummy, one on her head and shhhh her. She cried for 10 ish mins the first night and it's taken 2-3 mins (with no tears) each time since. Only last week she was waking hourly some nights and staying up in the night for up to 4 hours at a time, needless to say, one waking is a HUGE improvement


----------



## Noelle610

VikkiD said:


> Noelle610 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> VikkiD said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Noelle610 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> VikkiD said:
> 
> 
> Not posted here before but after a bit of advice lo as never been a great sleeper but we did go through a couple of months of sleeping through from 8 till 6. Since Christmas that's all gone to pot an now lo will wake several times I night I do go straight into him which I know I shouldn't I pop his dummy back in an give him his comforter an back to sleep he goes 1hr to 2hr he will cry again so I do the same an this goes on all night sometime he won't even do an hour. I have tried earlier bedtime makes no difference at all. Currently he wakes around 5.30 will have a 7oz bottle he then will have 3 meals an 2 more 7oz bottles during the day. Naps are not good just gone down to 2 a day mostly 40 mins if I am very lucky 1-1.5hr this is rare though. These naps are usually taken at 9 an 1 an bedtime is 6-6:30.
> I really do not know what else to try I was thinking of trying another late nap an putting bedtime back a bit to 8 this use to work before Christmas I really don't know what else to try any advice?
> 
> Hi :flower: Do you think he's waking for his pacifier? I'm thinking it may have become a dependence.Click to expand...
> 
> That's what I was thinking as he only as it for naps an bedtime. He did suck his thumb before we gave him the pacifier.Click to expand...
> 
> I'd get rid of it. You'll have a few tough nights, but I bet he sleeps better when he's weaned of it. Good luck mama!Click to expand...
> 
> Thanks I did try this morning at nap time but he shoved his ted so far in his mouth I gave in. I think bedtime we could do it as he's half asleep when he finishes his bottle at wake ups would you just place your hand on his chest to try get him back to sleepClick to expand...

Yes, that's what I would do :) I'd also caution you against letting him fall asleep while having his bottle. Here's a good article that explains it, but you basically want to put him down awake so that he learns to soothe himself to sleep and during subsequent wakings:

https://www.troublesometots.com/what-you-need-to-know-about-sleeping-through-the-night-part-i/


----------



## Shadowy Lady

Minikiwi - awesome! She's made so much progress already! So happy for you :D

Meanwhile I'm trying to adopt DH philosophy that whatever happens we'll deal with it tonight. I so wish I was as easygoing with sleep as him...


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## Boo44

Shadowy you sound similar to me and my OH :)

By the way, how old are you girls (if you don't mind me asking!)? I like to be able to 'imagine' what you're all like :haha:

I'm 31 :-O


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## MiniKiwi

Noelle610 said:


> Yes, that's what I would do :) I'd also caution you against letting him fall asleep while having his bottle. Here's a good article that explains it, but you basically want to put him down awake so that he learns to soothe himself to sleep and during subsequent wakings:
> 
> https://www.troublesometots.com/what-you-need-to-know-about-sleeping-through-the-night-part-i/

This is the article that inspired us, great link!

Boo - I'm 23! :p


----------



## Boo44

MiniKiwi said:


> Noelle610 said:
> 
> 
> Yes, that's what I would do :) I'd also caution you against letting him fall asleep while having his bottle. Here's a good article that explains it, but you basically want to put him down awake so that he learns to soothe himself to sleep and during subsequent wakings:
> 
> https://www.troublesometots.com/what-you-need-to-know-about-sleeping-through-the-night-part-i/
> 
> This is the article that inspired us, great link!
> 
> Boo - I'm 23! :pClick to expand...

I'm so old! Lol


----------



## MiniKiwi

Aww haha! You're so not old! I think most of the mamas around here are about your age, aren't they?


----------



## gaiagirl

I'm 28!

Had an interesting day and night. Tbh I have decided to stop stressing and freaking out about naps and hours of sleep and awake time etc etc etc. Just for me, that's actually been causing me as much stress as the waking at night. And I'm not sure what the point is. He naps more than all of my friends babies and sleeps worse at night! So anyways...yesterday he only napped about 2 hours and last one was 2:30. He fought it at 4:30 like crazy. Finally said screw it, went out for dinner and he was perfectly happy and content the whole time. Put him to bed at 7:30, and yes he still did the wake ups (8:30, 10:30, etc) but no different and actually better than most evenings!

He slept 7:30-7:30 with the same frequent wakings but I really don't think that's related to naps.

He napped from 9:20-11 this morning and a few more short ones...but with more awake time and relying more on his cues than the clock, and it's been going great!

Not sure really if this is any better, and I SO appreciate the advice but I think I have simply been stressing way too much about finding the 'perfect' formula combo of sleep times. As if if I can just get him napping at the right times and bed at the right time it will somehow make him sleep differently! I don't think that's the case, but what do I know...

Not sure the point of this other than just rambling...lol.


----------



## bananaz

I'm 25, but 31 isn't old at all! I think there are a lot of moms that age and older on BnB.

Everything has gone to pot here :( I don't know if she's teething again or what, but her happy naptime self-settling stint seems to be over, at least for now. The only naps where she's gone to sleep on her own have been after 10-15 minutes of screaming, and a couple of times I had to give up and try again later because I couldn't deal with the crying anymore. Whenever I intervened and tried to soothe her that just made things worse. I think I'm going to try making her naptimes later and see how that works.

For those of you with babies around 10 months old, what are their typical awake times? I'm thinking that she may need a 3 hour awake period in the morning and then a 4 hour one before her second nap, but that seems kind of long, and then she'd only be up for 2-3 hours before bed...


----------



## bananaz

gaiagirl said:


> I'm 28!
> 
> Had an interesting day and night. Tbh I have decided to stop stressing and freaking out about naps and hours of sleep and awake time etc etc etc. Just for me, that's actually been causing me as much stress as the waking at night. And I'm not sure what the point is. He naps more than all of my friends babies and sleeps worse at night! So anyways...yesterday he only napped about 2 hours and last one was 2:30. He fought it at 4:30 like crazy. Finally said screw it, went out for dinner and he was perfectly happy and content the whole time. Put him to bed at 7:30, and yes he still did the wake ups (8:30, 10:30, etc) but no different and actually better than most evenings!
> 
> He slept 7:30-7:30 with the same frequent wakings but I really don't think that's related to naps.
> 
> He napped from 9:20-11 this morning and a few more short ones...but with more awake time and relying more on his cues than the clock, and it's been going great!
> 
> Not sure really if this is any better, and I SO appreciate the advice but I think I have simply been stressing way too much about finding the 'perfect' formula combo of sleep times. As if if I can just get him napping at the right times and bed at the right time it will somehow make him sleep differently! I don't think that's the case, but what do I know...
> 
> Not sure the point of this other than just rambling...lol.


Sometimes it's good to just say "screw it" and go with the flow! I know some of my LO's best nights have been when her daytime schedule got totally messed up. Of course, some of her worse nights came after those types of days too lol. Just goes to show that a lot of it is random and if it were really a matter of just finding the perfect schedule most of the ladies on here would've figured things out and left this thread months ago :haha:


----------



## Noelle610

29! Will be 30 in the fall. 

Shadowy Lady, Sofia and Charlotte must be playing a trick on us. C pooped herself awake during not one... But both naps today! And she's normally constipated!


----------



## MiniKiwi

bananaz said:


> For those of you with babies around 10 months old, what are their typical awake times? I'm thinking that she may need a 3 hour awake period in the morning and then a 4 hour one before her second nap, but that seems kind of long, and then she'd only be up for 2-3 hours before bed...

Mia's days have been going a bit like this

7am wake

9am - 10am nap

1pm - 2pm nap

7pm bed

5 hours is a huge wake time though and sometimes it's longer if she has a short afternoon nap. I feel bad for her, she starts falling over while she's crawling around 6:30! But it's working so I can't change it atm! When she's settling in her cot better and sleeping well at night, I might try getting her bedtime earlier. It feels cruel forcing her to stay awake!

edit - I can't make her morning wake time before her first nap longer either, she just starts crying lol


----------



## Larkspur

Boo44 said:


> I'm so old! Lol

LOL, that makes me practically retired then, I'm 37.


----------



## VikkiD

Another bad night here took lo upstair at 6:30 fed him put him down in his cot but his mobile on he went sleep no problem around 7pm 8:30 the wake ups started I did ignore him at first an he went back sleep but 30 mins later would wake I did give him his dummy as well best stretch he did was 2 hours


----------



## mamas_melon

Hey can I join please, and get some support of you lovely ladies. I've only read bits of the thread, but basically my LO Finley is 8 and a half months old and has slept pretty well up until about a month ago. He has a dummy for sleep, and has always woke for it at least once during the night. At first when he was newborn, it was several times a night, but since putting him in his own room at nearly 6 months it was maybe once/twice or sometimes not at all which was great. He was sttn most nights and everything was going well, and then everything changed. 

He's gradually got worse and worse, waking several times an hour sometimes, he'll just wake up crying until I go in an re-settle him or put his dummy back in if he can't find it. I put a few dummies in his cot and he'll mostly just grab one and put it in himself, but I don't understand why he's just waking and crying? He's not hungry as i've tried giving him a bottle and he wasn't interested, he hasn't had a night feed since about 3 months. I must admit I feel like I've done it all wrong, he'd been rocked to sleep since birth so I usually have to rock him to sleep in the middle of the night. In the past week we've stopped rocking him to sleep just before he settles for the night at 8pm and for naps, and he's seemed to be ok with this, it's just the mid night wakings which are hard! He's also been waking at around 2/3am for a whole hour before going back to sleep. I'm exhausted and slowly becoming more and more depressed. 

Me and DH have said we would like to try some sleep training like pu/pd when DH is on leave from work in a weeks time, as it's difficult at the moment because I don't want the baby screaming in the night and keeping DH awake as he works early in the morning. 

LO doesn't really nap much during the day, and when he does the times and lengths are very irregular. I just feel like it's all my fault for letting him be rocked to sleep and I feel like it's going to be hard to reverse this cycle.

Sorry for the long post, I hope I've managed to get as much info in as possible.


----------



## VikkiD

Just tried first nap of the day without his dummy an he went sleep ok he did stick his comforter over his face but nothing in his mouth


----------



## AngelUK

Ok you are ALL spring-chickens compared to me. I know I am only marginally on this thread these days but I am 43 so there :haha:


----------



## Noelle610

Good luck with the dummy weaning Vikki!

mamas_melon, we've all been there. I feel like I've posted this link a million times over the last few days, but I love it! I would start putting your LO down awake. As he gets older, his sleep is going to deteriorate and he's going to wake more frequently if he doesn't know how to put himsefl to sleep.

https://www.troublesometots.com/what-you-need-to-know-about-sleeping-through-the-night-part-i/


----------



## Shadowy Lady

Boo - I'm 31 too! I thought I was the most senior here hahaha! I turned 31 in February. 

Gaia - I found my LO night time sleep doesn't change based on naps. I don't think this will help you but just wanted to say 4 months was the toughest time for us sleepwise. She got much better at 5 months (down to one wakeup call).

Bananaz - you are so young!!! You sound mature beyond your years lol! Sorry to hear about Elsie's sleep. I always blame everything on teething...

Noelle - eeeek, I'm sorry Charolotte has taken a page outta Sofia's book. Why on Earth do they poop in the middle of the night???

So last night was pretty good here, we actually had another sttn!!! She took longer to sleep (she talked to herself for 10 mins) but she actually slept from 6:45 pm to 6:30 am without a single wink!!! She had pooped again when I went to her this morning then but I could tell it was recent, lol! I take 6:30 am pooping anyway over middle of the nights pooping! Hoping we're outta that phase now....


----------



## pachamama

Silly question alert - when you ssshhhh pat, what do you pat? My lo sleeps on his back so I can't get to his bottom - do you pick the baby up and pat bottom whilst saying ssshhhh? 

Really sorry if this seems a dumb question but just can't figure it out...


x


----------



## Noelle610

Shadowy Lady, that's great! I was worried for our night after two crap poopy naps of 30 minutes each, but it was good too. I put Charlotte down super early - at 6pm. She woke briefly and resettled herself around 7pm (always does this if she's overtired) and then STTN until 6:15am! I feel good today.

Pachamama, I think you can just pat his bum while picking up. Not sure it matters how you do the patting as long as it's calming and consistent. If you google the method, it will describe exactly how it's done :)


----------



## pachamama

Noelle610 said:


> Pachamama, I think you can just pat his bum while picking up. Not sure it matters how you do the patting as long as it's calming and consistent. If you google the method, it will describe exactly how it's done :)

Thanks Noelle. Will go and google. 

My lo is 10 weeks old and for now all is ok. He uses a dummy for naps and overnight and wakes 2-4 times to have it replaced. I've read the first 2 articles in the link you keep posting and understand that I should probably be looking to reduce use around 4-5 months of age before object permanence kicks in. Are there any good descriptions about how to do this or does it have to be cold turkey? Many thanks.

x


----------



## izzlesnizzle

Noelle610 said:


> Shadowy Lady, that's great! I was worried for our night after two crap poopy naps of 30 minutes each, but it was good too. I put Charlotte down super early - at 6pm. She woke briefly and resettled herself around 7pm (always does this if she's overtired) and then STTN until 6:15am! I feel good today.
> 
> Oh that's interesting. Charlotte waking slightly at 7pm. My LO has been stirring at random times, like 8.30pm or 10pm. I wondered why that was. I didn't know it could be due to over tiredness.
> 
> Anyway, just a little update on the 5am waking and trying to re set her body clock and her waking at 3am and I was hoping that would stop the 5am thing.....well she did wake at 5am yesterday but due to the most horrific nappy that resulted in a full strip down, then she went back to sleep until 7.15am......but this morning she slept until 6am and was busy playing with the favourite toys i'd strategically placed in her cot the night before.
> 
> That's all great but shes managed to set my body clock for a 5am wake up regardless of whether shes awake or not. 5am I was wide awake and thinking shes going to wake up any minute now, she didn't and I was dozing on and off until I looked again at the monitor at 6 and there she was sitting up happily playing with her phone! Hopefully she will continue with this course of action without waking us up! 6am I can deal with, 5am I cant!


----------



## Noelle610

pachamama said:


> Noelle610 said:
> 
> 
> Pachamama, I think you can just pat his bum while picking up. Not sure it matters how you do the patting as long as it's calming and consistent. If you google the method, it will describe exactly how it's done :)
> 
> Thanks Noelle. Will go and google.
> 
> My lo is 10 weeks old and for now all is ok. He uses a dummy for naps and overnight and wakes 2-4 times to have it replaced. I've read the first 2 articles in the link you keep posting and understand that I should probably be looking to reduce use around 4-5 months of age before object permanence kicks in. Are there any good descriptions about how to do this or does it have to be cold turkey? Many thanks.
> 
> xClick to expand...

I had a link for you, but it froze up my computer and I couldn't post it. Check out the "My Baby Sleep Guide" :) 

Anyway, ideally you get rid of the dummy around that age. I'm not a good one to advise, because we still use one. My daughter doesn't wake for it and it helps to soothe her. Some babies get "addicted" and others are fine. It's really up to you whether or not you want to run the risk. I think if you do get rid of it, cold turkey is best. It usually is a quick process, in my understanding. If the baby is older, you can also teach them to re-insert the pacifier themselves. The Sleep Lady suggests handing them the pacifier when they wake for it rather than popping it in their mouth so that they learn. Not sure this would work for a small baby though.


----------



## Noelle610

izzlesnizzle said:


> Noelle610 said:
> 
> 
> Shadowy Lady, that's great! I was worried for our night after two crap poopy naps of 30 minutes each, but it was good too. I put Charlotte down super early - at 6pm. She woke briefly and resettled herself around 7pm (always does this if she's overtired) and then STTN until 6:15am! I feel good today.
> 
> Oh that's interesting. Charlotte waking slightly at 7pm. My LO has been stirring at random times, like 8.30pm or 10pm. I wondered why that was. I didn't know it could be due to over tiredness.
> 
> Anyway, just a little update on the 5am waking and trying to re set her body clock and her waking at 3am and I was hoping that would stop the 5am thing.....well she did wake at 5am yesterday but due to the most horrific nappy that resulted in a full strip down, then she went back to sleep until 7.15am......but this morning she slept until 6am and was busy playing with the favourite toys i'd strategically placed in her cot the night before.
> 
> That's all great but shes managed to set my body clock for a 5am wake up regardless of whether shes awake or not. 5am I was wide awake and thinking shes going to wake up any minute now, she didn't and I was dozing on and off until I looked again at the monitor at 6 and there she was sitting up happily playing with her phone! Hopefully she will continue with this course of action without waking us up! 6am I can deal with, 5am I cant!
> 
> Yeah, it's tough because she does it a lot. She's really sensitive to wake time. She is usually up for "too long" in the evenings because her second nap will sometimes be 1pm - 2:30pm and we can't really get her into bed until 6:30pm or 7pm with our work schedules (she's a daycare baby). 4 hours of awake time is fine for most babies at 10 months, but she does better with about 3.5 in the evening. She napped from 2pm - 4pm on Saturday and didn't wake at that mark (and slept great actually) and I'm sure the later nap had something to do with it.
> 
> I'm glad your LO is sleeping a bit later! But it sucks that you're still getting that 5am wake-up regardless of when she's goes down. I agree with you that 6am is "morning" while 5am is still "the middle of the night". It may just be a phase that hopefully passes quickly.Click to expand...


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## izzlesnizzle

This is it. She is usually up by 2.30pm meaning its 4 hrs until bedtime. Today though, she napped at 11.30am in the pram which I was surprised about. By the time I got home she was asleep, she only woke up at 9.30am from her morning nap. I thought no way, she cant go from 12.30 until bed time with no sleep so I put her down again at 3pm and she had 30 mins so it will be interesting to see how it goes. She dropped her 3rd nap weeks ago but I guess she needed 3 today.


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## VikkiD

Well we have had 2 naps no dummy first nap was easy second bit harder going to give it a try tonight no dummy I have told oh he might need some ear plugs


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## Noelle610

Good luck Vikki!


----------



## aliss

I'm in a pickle.

Philippe doesn't really wake out of hunger much (2-3 feeds) but rather gas pains. If I burp him, it takes a lot of work and he's wide awake after from the effort. If I don't, he squirms and whines a LOT.

What to do...


----------



## mamas_melon

Thanks for the link Noelle, I will have a read through it now.


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## Noelle610

aliss said:


> I'm in a pickle.
> 
> Philippe doesn't really wake out of hunger much (2-3 feeds) but rather gas pains. If I burp him, it takes a lot of work and he's wide awake after from the effort. If I don't, he squirms and whines a LOT.
> 
> What to do...

Poor kid. What if you fed him sitting up?


----------



## aliss

Noelle610 said:


> aliss said:
> 
> 
> I'm in a pickle.
> 
> Philippe doesn't really wake out of hunger much (2-3 feeds) but rather gas pains. If I burp him, it takes a lot of work and he's wide awake after from the effort. If I don't, he squirms and whines a LOT.
> 
> What to do...
> 
> Poor kid. What if you fed him sitting up?Click to expand...

I still do :( I have an overactive letdown/oversupply which has been greatly reduced by now but it's still worse than average. 

He could whine for 30 minutes before a proper cry, but we only have 1 bedroom so he's right beside me and it's annoying LOL


----------



## Noelle610

aliss said:


> Noelle610 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> aliss said:
> 
> 
> I'm in a pickle.
> 
> Philippe doesn't really wake out of hunger much (2-3 feeds) but rather gas pains. If I burp him, it takes a lot of work and he's wide awake after from the effort. If I don't, he squirms and whines a LOT.
> 
> What to do...
> 
> Poor kid. What if you fed him sitting up?Click to expand...
> 
> I still do :( I have an overactive letdown/oversupply which has been greatly reduced by now but it's still worse than average.
> 
> He could whine for 30 minutes before a proper cry, but we only have 1 bedroom so he's right beside me and it's annoying LOLClick to expand...

ugh so sorry! I think it may be something he has to grow out of. Can you try gas drops? Not sure how they work with breastfeeding.

On another note, aliss, I had a dream I met you in "real life" the other night! Philippe was with you too but he had loads of dark hair. And that's all I remember :haha:


----------



## gaiagirl

Aliss we have nights like that. I had some braised cabbage last night and from 4am on it was restless whining. Thrashing around and pulling legs up :( I hear you on how annoying it is!

He used to get gassier with no burping but had stopped!? Not sure why, but I struggled with that too. I nurse lying down and never burp in the middle of the night and was considering starting but he got over it...

So yah I guess I have no advice at all, sorry. Lol.

The only thing I can think of is having him sleep elevated a bit? Hard with bedsharing though!


----------



## mrsbeano

aliss said:


> I'm in a pickle.
> 
> Philippe doesn't really wake out of hunger much (2-3 feeds) but rather gas pains. If I burp him, it takes a lot of work and he's wide awake after from the effort. If I don't, he squirms and whines a LOT.
> 
> What to do...

Talk about a broken record as I just posted this somewhere else but for Quinn if I put him on his tummy he would bring up his own wind and then I could turn him back over (if I didn't fall asleep). It was either that or walking up and down the stairs with him over my shoulder. Could be worth a try :flower:


----------



## mrsbeano

Can't believe how much progress there's been around here nowadays. Bananaz, I'm sorry that you've had a hiccup but hopefully it passes soon and she gets back to improving.

Quinn has been very good of late. We had a blip with the light mornings and early wakings but he seemed to get over that with a blackout blind. I really hope I'm not jinxing this but he does generally seem to sttn now which I truly didnt think would happen until he was 3. He did have to learn though, shhh patting,night weaning, dummy ditching etc etc lol

At the weekend, I was brave and he had a sleepover with his cousing so my sister could have a night out. It was amazing! I put his cousin down at 6.30 and then Quinn at 7.30 and they both went down without a peep until morning. Not bad for a 9 month old and a 14 month old :thumbup:


----------



## VikkiD

Just about to put lo to bed now he's chewing on his comforter is this as bad as a dummy?


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## Noelle610

MrsBean, the stars aligned for you when you were babysitting! I really want to offer to take Charlotte's daycare buddy for a week when her mom is on a business trip (her hubby is a surgeon and works crazy hours), but my husband thinks it's going to be a nightmare.

Vicki, comforter is fine! Any sleep association that can be recreated without a parents help - a comforter/lovey, a paci he can re-insert on his own without mom "replugging" him, white noise that can be played on a loop all night - is fine.


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## VikkiD

Took the comforter out of his mouth put him down awake think he's asleep now having a little glass of wine feel so nervous lol got to stay tough if he wakes :)


----------



## Noelle610

This link from the Sleep Lady came up in my facebook feed today and I thought of you ladies. Sleep needs/schedules by age:

https://www.sleeplady.com/baby-sleep/typical-sleep-schedules-recommended-hours-of-sleep/

For those of you who don't know of the Sleep Lady, she's a gentle sleep coach, so this info might be of particular interest to anyone looking for sleep help of the non-CIO variety.


----------



## MiniKiwi

*Noelle and Shadowy* - Hurrah for sttns!!! :happydance: That's sooo nice!

*Bananaz* - so sorry everything's gone backwards for you both. I really find that the most frustrating and depressing, when you thought it was going well and then it turns to shit :( We're having more of that here, unfortunately. I am still blaming Mia's new teeth for a lot of the grumpy moods so perhaps it's still affecting her sleep, it does seem to take a while for these teeth to stop upsetting them. I also thought you were older too, 30 or so

*Mamasmelon* - Your LO sounds a lot like mine. She has (bar a few nights in the last week or two) woken up in the middle of the night to play for hours on end, for the last couple of months. It's very hard work :hugs: I also rocked LO to sleep from birth and have realised it's probably the cause of our problems now, but there's no point in regretting/beating yourself up over it - it's done and now we just need to try and fix it! We've had a bit of success lately with putting LO down awake and what I do is put one hand on her tummy, one on her head and stroke and shhhh until she falls asleep. The first night it took 15 minutes with a small amount (much less than I imagined) of crying and the next couple of nights it only took 3 minutes :shock:!!! She's still been waking but a lot less than before and not having to rock is great! I read Noelle's 'troublesome tots' article and decided from that to put an end to the rocking. Best of luck with it, I know how impossibly difficult it is when they're up like that in the middle of the night

*Vikki* - Good luck with the pacifier weaning, hope it goes smoothly for you both

*Aliss* - Sorry you two are having such a hard time. I had an overactive letdown too and LO would choke and spit everywhere lol! I used to just soak the first, shooty, sprayish milk into a muslin and then let her feed. Have you tried that?

And well not a great night here, unfortunately. This baby keeps getting my hopes up and then destroying them! Her dad put her to bed last night and for some reason it took him 20 minutes to shhh and pat her to sleep... it's not taken me that long even on the first night so I think I'll stick to doing bedtime myself from now on. She was asleep at 7:15pm, woke breifly at 9pm, 11pm (OH heard her cry but I can't remember getting up and he didn't go resettle her :wacko: not sure what happened there!) then woke at 2am and had a motn party until 3:30am :( woke for the day at 7am. Oh well. Will try again tonight


----------



## Iren_iren

I've been putting down LO after 1,5 hours being awake. Had 2 walks and naps in the pram a d one together in my bed :) 3 good naps a day. Bed time bit later than I planned, but he was asleep by 8pm, so fingers crossed. 
Still long way till he will be napping in his cot and yesterday night Lucas decided to chat for an hour at 4am, but slept till 7.30am which was brilliant :)


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## mamas_melon

MiniKiwi- I'm glad your LO is waking a little less during the night, sounds like your having some success with the method your doing. I think this is probably the route I'm going to take too, by putting him down awake and then staying by his side until he's asleep. We tried putting him down tonight and leaving the room and he screamed the place down until he was almost sick. It broke my heart and I eventually went in and picked him up and he went to sleep. I know I shouldn't have as I've got to be consistent with any method I use at the moment, but I just don't know what to do for the best. :cry: I feel awful now and have spent the last hour crying. I read the article on troublesome tots, and I must say I totally understand where they're coming from. My LO has a dummy and white noise machine for bed, and they recommend not using them but I just can't bring myself to take everything away at once, so I'm going to do things gradually. Hopefully I'll find a solution that works for our family.


----------



## MiniKiwi

I think this method is nice and gentle and if you try it out tomorrow night, you might be pleasantly suprised, like I was.

Don't feel bad about tonight, ok? Start again tomorrow, there's no point in beating yourself up. But you're right that you should be consistent and you should only do what you're comfortable with. Hope you get some sleep tonight and if you're interested in this method, let us know how you get on tomorrow :hugs:


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## VikkiD

No dummy is going hard he slept brilliant till 11:45 but as been up since he just polished off a 7oz bottle so hoping he will sleep now


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## VikkiD

First night no dummy went well till 11:45 then I made a mistake lo was moaning for over an hour I kept going in trying to settle him without picking him up he just wouldn't then after 90 mins I fed him why I did not do this first I do not know as most nights he still takes a bottle after a bit of moaning he went back sleep two hours after original wake up. I then heard one small moan around 4:30 where he settled within a couple of mins if that then up for the day at 6.


----------



## mamas_melon

Well, he only woke twice last night which is a big improvement, and he didnt have his motn party lol! However I'm not sure if that's just because he was exhausted from crying. He woke for the day at 5.45 though which is earlier than usual :shrug: MiniKiwi- would you be able to post a link to the information you have on the method your using please? Hope tonight goes well for you :hugs:


----------



## Noelle610

I hope everyone had a good night.

I'm afraid to type this as it may come back to bite me, but sleep for the past three days has been amazing here. STTN 12 hours without a peep, like those babies I didn't think existed. I really hope it continues... But it probably won't :haha: Just enjoying it until the next regression/tooth/milestone.


----------



## VikkiD

Noelle610 said:


> I hope everyone had a good night.
> 
> I'm afraid to type this as it may come back to bite me, but sleep for the past three days has been amazing here. STTN 12 hours without a peep, like those babies I didn't think existed. I really hope it continues... But it probably won't :haha: Just enjoying it until the next regression/tooth/milestone.

That's good news hope it continues.

Naps have been so difficult today 30mins at 8:50 this morning, then he was fighting everything so in the end I have let him fall asleep watching tv bad I know but he was so tired he went sleep 35 mins ago no dummy though


----------



## bananaz

Noelle610 said:


> I hope everyone had a good night.
> 
> I'm afraid to type this as it may come back to bite me, but sleep for the past three days has been amazing here. STTN 12 hours without a peep, like those babies I didn't think existed. I really hope it continues... But it probably won't :haha: Just enjoying it until the next regression/tooth/milestone.

Go, Charlotte! I can't even tell you how jealous I am, haha. Elsie has been up hourly for the second half of the night and just now fell asleep after fussing for an hour :wacko: I usually keep very detailed to-the-minute sleep logs with Trixie Tracker but I haven't even been able to keep up with her wakings the past few nights; it's seemed like she's been awake and fussing nonstop. I feel CIO looming in our immediate future.


----------



## Noelle610

bananaz said:


> Noelle610 said:
> 
> 
> I hope everyone had a good night.
> 
> I'm afraid to type this as it may come back to bite me, but sleep for the past three days has been amazing here. STTN 12 hours without a peep, like those babies I didn't think existed. I really hope it continues... But it probably won't :haha: Just enjoying it until the next regression/tooth/milestone.
> 
> Go, Charlotte! I can't even tell you how jealous I am, haha. Elsie has been up hourly for the second half of the night and just now fell asleep after fussing for an hour :wacko: I usually keep very detailed to-the-minute sleep logs with Trixie Tracker but I haven't even been able to keep up with her wakings the past few nights; it's seemed like she's been awake and fussing nonstop. I feel CIO looming in our immediate future.Click to expand...

Oh no, that sucks! Honestly, maybe CIO will work in your situation. You know your daughter best, so I would just use your gut. 

What I want to know is, when do these things even out? Like, how long? Two years, three years? I love that Charlotte is sleeping well, but I hate that I can never trust it, you know?


----------



## bananaz

Noelle610 said:


> Oh no, that sucks! Honestly, maybe CIO will work in your situation. You know your daughter best, so I would just use your gut.
> 
> What I want to know is, when do these things even out? Like, how long? Two years, three years? I love that Charlotte is sleeping well, but I hate that I can never trust it, you know?

Well, to be fair it's probably going to be more like Whine It Out, or Controlled Whining depending on how I decide to go about it. She doesn't usually cry during these wakings, she's mostly just yelling and fussing. Sometimes that yelling and fussing results in mom coming in to feed her (if it's past 4am) or to give her back the stuffed animals she flung on the floor or to pat her back while begging her to go to sleep. 

I've been telling myself that I'm being flexible and responsive, but the truth is that sporadic reinforcement is the strongest kind and I've been offering it up by the truckload :blush: Which probably isn't the best idea with a child who needs structure and consistency.

And I've been wondering that too! I have memories of my little sister popping out of bed all night long at 2-3 years old asking for a drink of water or a story. I'm seriously dreading that time period :wacko:


----------



## Noelle610

bananaz said:


> Noelle610 said:
> 
> 
> Oh no, that sucks! Honestly, maybe CIO will work in your situation. You know your daughter best, so I would just use your gut.
> 
> What I want to know is, when do these things even out? Like, how long? Two years, three years? I love that Charlotte is sleeping well, but I hate that I can never trust it, you know?
> 
> Well, to be fair it's probably going to be more like Whine It Out, or Controlled Whining depending on how I decide to go about it. She doesn't usually cry during these wakings, she's mostly just yelling and fussing. Sometimes that yelling and fussing results in mom coming in to feed her (if it's past 4am) or to give her back the stuffed animals she flung on the floor or to pat her back while begging her to go to sleep.
> 
> I've been telling myself that I'm being flexible and responsive, but the truth is that sporadic reinforcement is the strongest kind and I've been offering it up by the truckload :blush: Which probably isn't the best idea with a child who needs structure and consistency.
> 
> And I've been wondering that too! I have memories of my little sister popping out of bed all night long at 2-3 years old asking for a drink of water or a story. I'm seriously dreading that time period :wacko:Click to expand...

I hear you. I'm not consistent either. I know a sleep consultant and she was making fun of me the other day. She basically said I can't take my own advice, which is true! She recommended responding to night wakings as minimally as possible - no taking out of the crib unless hysterical, patting her bum or even just verbal reassurance from the door. I have to work on that.

UGH I REALLY hope that isn't our life at 3 years old... IT NEVER ENDS!


----------



## Boo44

My 3 yr old nephew still gets up at least once a night to ask his mum if a fox/monster/dinosaur can get in the house, or to go to the toilet. It definitely never ends!!! And the worst about that is they are independently mobile and can appear in your room!!!


----------



## polaris

Well my three year old sleeps extremely well and has done since about fourteen months. We very rarely hear from him during the night unless he's not well. The very odd time he will wake up for a pee or a drink of water but goes straight off back to sleep again afterwards. He was a terrible sleeper as a newborn and wasn't great as an older baby (although Clara is definitely worse) but he really is a consistently good sleeper now. He still takes a two hour nap after lunch too.


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## Noelle610

Polaris, that's good to hear!

Boo, that scares me! I think it was Dr. Sears who put a small bed in his room for one of his kids? The story goes that he told them it was fine if they wanted to sleep with mom and dad for whatever reason, but they couldn't wake them up. I hope I'm not making that up!


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## gaiagirl

Lol Noelle I wish I could tell my 4 month old that!


----------



## Noelle610

gaiagirl said:


> Lol Noelle I wish I could tell my 4 month old that!

I know, right? :haha:


----------



## NotNic

My nephews (4.5 and 2.5yrs) do not sleep through, and the younger one gets up at 5am :wacko: This is part of the reason why I am so keen to stamp out bad habits now!

So we've had a rough few days - two teeth through, two more broken the gum, I'm pretty sure I have a chest infection and to top things off Finlay has norovirus. Great. On Saturday night he was sick from 1am - 2.45am. In a way it was a blessing I was at my mum's so he was in the room with me, but on the other hand I ran out of babygros and vests etc. so had to wake my mum up to get the spares out of her room. We're now on to the yucky nappy stages and he is SOOO clingy. I really am getting close to being at my wits end, especially as I'm ill anyway (and can't go to the drs because he is so infectious its not fair for anyone to babysit him and I can't take him to the drs either). My patience is running thin and the weather is bad too so we've been under house arrest. Apart from the night he was sick, nothing much has changed sleep wise - still up a few times and his naps are still pants. His pm nap lasted 20mins today. Definitely thinking about going to bed shortly. :(


----------



## NotNic

Oh and to answer pp. I'm 29 (for two and half more weeks :cry:)


----------



## Boo44

Noelle610 said:


> Polaris, that's good to hear!
> 
> Boo, that scares me! I think it was Dr. Sears who put a small bed in his room for one of his kids? The story goes that he told them it was fine if they wanted to sleep with mom and dad for whatever reason, but they couldn't wake them up. I hope I'm not making that up!

Scares me too! The idea of opening my eyes and a toddler staring right at me totally freaks me out lol!!! Prob will be totally different when it's my toddler though :)
Ooh Polaris I hope Jack is like your son then! And Clara is such a pretty name :)

Notnic ahh poor you that sounds like the perfect storm of horribleness :( I really hope things look up for you soon x


----------



## NotNic

Thanks lovely! It can't last forever right? :)


----------



## Noelle610

NotNic, so sorry :hugs: Hang in there, it certainly cannot last forever!


----------



## pompeyvix

My friend's little girl who is 2 years 8 months has just learnt how to open doors. She says she can hear her thundering around her room for a while, then the door handle slowly goes down and there she is in their room saying 'get up mummy' ! Not looking forward to those days either!

Anabella was up at 9am this morning, but managed just one 30 min nap all day.....urgh this is so frustrating! If I put her down when she is not sleepy, she will either just play or scream. 

Do you think it's possible she just doesn't need as much sleep? (I do appreciate she sleeps later in the morning so this may be a contributing factor, but surely 30 mins ALL DAY is not right?!)


----------



## Shadowy Lady

Noelle - yay for good nights! I've got my fingers crossed for you that it continues.

Bananaz - I agree with Noelle I think CIO likely will work for you. I hear it works wonders with older babies. It'll probably be hard the first night but will get easier. Every single case I've heard of CIO it has worked in under 3 nights.

Boo - eeeek! I def am not ready to be woken up yet again by a toddler! I hope they don't all do that!!!

NotNic - so sorry to hear about your rough nights. My LO doesn't have any teeth yet and I'm already freaking out about how they will affect her.

Last night was another good one for us. Third night in a row that she slept from 6:30 pm to 6:00 am without a peek. I went to sleep at 10:00 pm and actually woke up at the same time as her (6:00 am). I mean 6:00 am is early but sooooo much better than the pooping week we had last week, lol! 

I take it and hope this time sttn sticks around.


----------



## VikkiD

Not to bad here last night lo napped rubbish yesterday so was shattered after 6 so I put him bed at 6:15 he woke for a feed at 10:50 then went sleep I heard him moan abit around 2 an 4 but I didn't go into him an he was up for the day 5:45


----------



## VikkiD

Just to add I am also 29 big 30 in December :(


----------



## bananaz

pompeyvix said:


> My friend's little girl who is 2 years 8 months has just learnt how to open doors. She says she can hear her thundering around her room for a while, then the door handle slowly goes down and there she is in their room saying 'get up mummy' ! Not looking forward to those days either!
> 
> Anabella was up at 9am this morning, but managed just one 30 min nap all day.....urgh this is so frustrating! If I put her down when she is not sleepy, she will either just play or scream.
> 
> Do you think it's possible she just doesn't need as much sleep? (I do appreciate she sleeps later in the morning so this may be a contributing factor, but surely 30 mins ALL DAY is not right?!)

I think the late mornings may be partly to blame here. Most babies your LO's age only need around 14 hours of sleep a day, so if she's getting 13.5-14.5 hours of sleep at night she probably isn't going to be tired enough to take decent naps during the day. I guess it's up to you whether you want to try getting her up at a set time to see if she sleeps better during the day, or whether you want to keep those lovely late mornings!


----------



## Noelle610

bananaz said:


> pompeyvix said:
> 
> 
> my friend's little girl who is 2 years 8 months has just learnt how to open doors. She says she can hear her thundering around her room for a while, then the door handle slowly goes down and there she is in their room saying 'get up mummy' ! Not looking forward to those days either!
> 
> Anabella was up at 9am this morning, but managed just one 30 min nap all day.....urgh this is so frustrating! If i put her down when she is not sleepy, she will either just play or scream.
> 
> Do you think it's possible she just doesn't need as much sleep? (i do appreciate she sleeps later in the morning so this may be a contributing factor, but surely 30 mins all day is not right?!)
> 
> i think the late mornings may be partly to blame here. Most babies your lo's age only need around 14 hours of sleep a day, so if she's getting 13.5-14.5 hours of sleep at night she probably isn't going to be tired enough to take decent naps during the day. I guess it's up to you whether you want to try getting her up at a set time to see if she sleeps better during the day, or whether you want to keep those lovely late mornings!Click to expand...

wss :)


----------



## bananaz

*Shadowy* - Hooray for no early morning poops! Did you change anything or did the problem just resolve on its own?

*Vikki* - Glad you had a good night :)


Yesterday I completely messed up LO's schedule by taking her to a play group during her morning nap time so she ended up only taking one 1.5 hour nap the whole day and was awake for 6 hours before bedtime. I was expecting a horrible night but she slept almost 10 hours straight! Unfortunately she then decided to be up for the day at 5am. Can't have it all I suppose :rolleyes:


----------



## Noelle610

Maybe she will be an early transitioner to one nap Bananaz!


----------



## Shadowy Lady

Bananaz - I moved her cereal feeding to the morning and also started giving her dinner earlier (at 4:30 pm). I did all this maybe 6 days ago though so not sure if it's related.

At what age do babies drop to one nap?


----------



## Noelle610

Shadowy Lady said:


> At what age do babies drop to one nap?

Usually between 12 and 18 months.


----------



## bananaz

Noelle610 said:


> Maybe she will be an early transitioner to one nap Bananaz!

I was thinking that too. Her awake periods seem to have gotten a lot longer recently, and when I put her down for her one nap after 4 hours of awake time yesterday she went to sleep quite quickly and without much of a fight. She didn't seem too unhappy about being up so long in the afternoon either. 

If she only has one nap I want it to be at least a couple hours long though. I'm not ready to only have a single 1-1.5 hour break a day!


----------



## Noelle610

bananaz said:


> Noelle610 said:
> 
> 
> Maybe she will be an early transitioner to one nap Bananaz!
> 
> I was thinking that too. Her awake periods seem to have gotten a lot longer recently, and when I put her down for her one nap after 4 hours of awake time yesterday she went to sleep quite quickly and without much of a fight. She didn't seem too unhappy about being up so long in the afternoon either.
> 
> If she only has one nap I want it to be at least a couple hours long though. I'm not ready to only have a single 1-1.5 hour break a day!Click to expand...

Oh, I hear you. I'm not ready. Here's some great advice on how to do it from a sleep guru friend of mine:



> And this is the basic advice for moving to one nap:
> 
> Just starting 1 nap (still having some 2 nap days): The first WT is stretched from 3-3.25 WT by 15-20min every 3-7 days until you get to a 4hr WT. If first nap ends before 12pm, do a 30-45 min catnap/quiet time ~3pm or 3.5hrs WT, whichever comes first.
> 
> Just recently on 1 nap: 4-4.25/6 (nap starting between 10am and 11am, depending on WU) Every 3-5 days, extend first WT by 15 min until he/she can cope with a 5hr WT
> 
> A couple weeks on 1 nap: 5/5 (eg. 6am WU, 11am nap, 7pm BT)
> 
> A few weeks more on 1 nap: 5.5/4.5-5(?) (eg. 6am WU, 11:30am nap, 7pm BT) 1 nap is well-established; No need to push the first WT unless there are signs that more WT is needed (lengthy monkey business before nap and/or shorter naps)
> 
> A couple months on 1 nap:: 6/4.5-5(?) (eg. 6am WU, 12pm nap, 7:30pm BT)
> 
> A few more months on 1 nap: 6.5/4.5-5(?)
> 
> 18+ months: 5.5-6/4.5-5(?) ~BTC nap starting at ~12:30-1:00pm
> 
> 24 months: 6+/5(?) ~BTC nap starting at ~1-1:30pm

To translate - 
BTC = By the Clock
WU= Wake up
WT = Wake time


----------



## Boo44

^^so basically just copied and pasted that (for when the time comes!)


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## Noelle610

Boo44 said:


> ^^so basically just copied and pasted that (for when the time comes!)

I just did myself :haha: I like that it's a gradual approach rather than cold turkey to get baby used to longer wake times. I have a sensitive girl, so I think it will work well for us.


----------



## bananaz

Noelle610 said:


> Oh, I hear you. I'm not ready. Here's some great advice on how to do it from a sleep guru friend of mine:
> 
> 
> 
> And this is the basic advice for moving to one nap:
> 
> Just starting 1 nap (still having some 2 nap days): The first WT is stretched from 3-3.25 WT by 15-20min every 3-7 days until you get to a 4hr WT. If first nap ends before 12pm, do a 30-45 min catnap/quiet time ~3pm or 3.5hrs WT, whichever comes first.
> 
> Just recently on 1 nap: 4-4.25/6 (nap starting between 10am and 11am, depending on WU) Every 3-5 days, extend first WT by 15 min until he/she can cope with a 5hr WT
> 
> A couple weeks on 1 nap: 5/5 (eg. 6am WU, 11am nap, 7pm BT)
> 
> A few weeks more on 1 nap: 5.5/4.5-5(?) (eg. 6am WU, 11:30am nap, 7pm BT) 1 nap is well-established; No need to push the first WT unless there are signs that more WT is needed (lengthy monkey business before nap and/or shorter naps)
> 
> A couple months on 1 nap:: 6/4.5-5(?) (eg. 6am WU, 12pm nap, 7:30pm BT)
> 
> A few more months on 1 nap: 6.5/4.5-5(?)
> 
> 18+ months: 5.5-6/4.5-5(?) ~BTC nap starting at ~12:30-1:00pm
> 
> 24 months: 6+/5(?) ~BTC nap starting at ~1-1:30pm
> 
> To translate -
> BTC = By the Clock
> WU= Wake up
> WT = Wake timeClick to expand...


That's awesome, thank you! Her first WT was already around 3.5 hours so I think I'm just going to push it to 4 and see how it goes. I like that that plan includes an afternoon catnap, though I wonder how I'd do "quiet time" with a hyperactive, hypersensitive 10 month old??


----------



## Noelle610

bananaz said:


> Noelle610 said:
> 
> 
> Oh, I hear you. I'm not ready. Here's some great advice on how to do it from a sleep guru friend of mine:
> 
> 
> 
> And this is the basic advice for moving to one nap:
> 
> Just starting 1 nap (still having some 2 nap days): The first WT is stretched from 3-3.25 WT by 15-20min every 3-7 days until you get to a 4hr WT. If first nap ends before 12pm, do a 30-45 min catnap/quiet time ~3pm or 3.5hrs WT, whichever comes first.
> 
> Just recently on 1 nap: 4-4.25/6 (nap starting between 10am and 11am, depending on WU) Every 3-5 days, extend first WT by 15 min until he/she can cope with a 5hr WT
> 
> A couple weeks on 1 nap: 5/5 (eg. 6am WU, 11am nap, 7pm BT)
> 
> A few weeks more on 1 nap: 5.5/4.5-5(?) (eg. 6am WU, 11:30am nap, 7pm BT) 1 nap is well-established; No need to push the first WT unless there are signs that more WT is needed (lengthy monkey business before nap and/or shorter naps)
> 
> A couple months on 1 nap:: 6/4.5-5(?) (eg. 6am WU, 12pm nap, 7:30pm BT)
> 
> A few more months on 1 nap: 6.5/4.5-5(?)
> 
> 18+ months: 5.5-6/4.5-5(?) ~BTC nap starting at ~12:30-1:00pm
> 
> 24 months: 6+/5(?) ~BTC nap starting at ~1-1:30pm
> 
> To translate -
> BTC = By the Clock
> WU= Wake up
> WT = Wake timeClick to expand...
> 
> 
> That's awesome, thank you! Her first WT was already around 3.5 hours so I think I'm just going to push it to 4 and see how it goes. I like that that plan includes an afternoon catnap, though I wonder how I'd do "quiet time" with a hyperactive, hypersensitive 10 month old??Click to expand...

Sure! I was thinking you could skip a step and just go to the 4 hours. I'm not sure about the quiet time either.... Maybe just quiet play with dim lights and books? I know Elise likes to read. 

Let us know how it goes!


----------



## Shadowy Lady

ok stupid question guys. Do you ever wake up your LO from naps to put them back on their normal schedule? I mean when they'r a bit older (6months +)

Sofia woke up at 6:00 am today and was super sleepy at 9:30 am so I put her down for a nap. She only napped for 30 mins and was up. Then at around 11 am she got cranky again so she went to sleep and is still asleep now at 1:00 pm. She usually takes a nap from 9:30-11:00 and then another one from 2:00-3:00 pm. Should I wake her up now to get her back on track? I know the age old question....


----------



## bananaz

Shadowy Lady said:


> ok stupid question guys. Do you ever wake up your LO from naps to put them back on their normal schedule? I mean when they'r a bit older (6months +)
> 
> Sofia woke up at 6:00 am today and was super sleepy at 9:30 am so I put her down for a nap. She only napped for 30 mins and was up. Then at around 11 am she got cranky again so she went to sleep and is still asleep now at 1:00 pm. She usually takes a nap from 9:30-11:00 and then another one from 2:00-3:00 pm. Should I wake her up now to get her back on track? I know the age old question....


I will wake LO from late naps to keep her on track for bedtime, but otherwise I generally let her be. Her "schedule" is already pretty loose to begin with though, because she tends to wake up at different times in the morning and her nap lengths are pretty variable. If she was more consistent I might do things differently.

What time does Sofia go to bed? Since it's already 1pm I don't think it's likely you're going to be able to get her back on track for a 2pm-3pm nap so I would probably let her sleep and then give her a late catnap or just skip that nap altogether depending on how long she sleeps now.


----------



## Shadowy Lady

Bananaz - she's usually asleep by 6:45 pm. She ended up waking up like 2 mins after I posted this, lol! I'll see if she goes for another nap around 3:00 or so. I don't like letting her nap past 4:00 pm.


----------



## Noelle610

Same as bananaz. I'd just try for a short catnap around 3 or 3:30. If she won't go down you can just do a slightly early bedtime.


----------



## NotNic

Finlay tends to go close to 4hrs before needing his first nap which normally lasts between 1.15 and 2.15 hrs though today he ended up napping from 10.15-1.40pm (I woke him in the end). Even though he was showing signs of tiredness at 4pm he wouldn't sleep so we'll now go through to bed. I think the long one was due to the bug. I would have let him sleep longer but I didn't want it to push his mealtimes out with him not eating as much as normal. In the afternoon he's started to either refuse the nap or have a short one 20-35mins so happily going close to 7hrs pm. Every baby I hear about though has long pm sleeps not morning ones. Also I found out I went to one nap at 8mths, though I was a baby happy to sleep in much later than I'd be able to convince Finlay!

We do also do quiet time here. We cuddle, listen to music, read books or sit and have a snack in the high chair. Quite often he falls asleep on my lap for 10mins. 

The other thing that's changed here is no milk. We are on Day 4 of a milk strike. He is still suffering a bit, but I am worried that the longer he refuses it, the harder it will be to get it back.


----------



## Noelle610

I don't think it's necessarily that the morning nap is dropped, per se, but that the morning and afternoon nap kind of merge into one. If I were you Notnic, I'd try gradually stretching his morning wake time to get that nap more in the center of your day. 

Milk strike is going on here too.... No idea why :shrug:


----------



## Larkspur

Hey all!!!!

You can probably tell by the use of exclamation marks that that was a cheery greeting and here's why: TWO WAKE UPS. Yes, that's right, just over a week into our 'preparation for starting gentle sleep training', we are down to two wakeups (post-dreamfeed). 

This is a major improvement from as many as eight wakeups. Last night, I got two three-hour blocks of sleep from 10.30-1.30 and then 2-5am. Then he had one more feed and went back down till almost 6.30 (which, again, is a lot better than the recent pattern of starting his day at 5.30am and crashing out for a first nap around 7.30am.

Tonight, the proper no-tears self-settling starts. So far, I've been unlatching him before he falls asleep, and then putting him in his cot really really drowsy (eyes closed). Sometimes I've jiggled him a little to get him just awake enough. Then, if he starts stirring, I shush and pat him down in the cot (often putting my head on his chest, that calms him right down) until he goes to sleep. I've been hearing him wake during the night (hard not to, he sleeps about a foot away from me) and settling back to sleep. So tonight we're starting with putting him down eyes open. Wish me luck!

Shadowy and Noelle, glad to hear the sleep is better! Bananaz, hope it improves!!


----------



## Noelle610

Yay!!!!!


----------



## polaris

Thomas was a lot older moving to one nap, about 15/16 months, and the transition was quite difficult. But once he was actually firmly established on one nap it really made life so much easier. Much easier to plan activities that didn't clash with nap-time. Also he started sleeping later in the mornings after he dropped to one nap (previously usually awake at 5.30/6). Also when he first moved to one nap he was sleeping for three hours plus!

Shadowy Lady - I always woke Thomas from naps to keep him on schedule, I found that he did sooo much better with a consistent schedule but he was totally unable to stick to a consistent schedule without me keeping him on track by waking him if necessary. I also had to wake him from naps for ages so that he was able to fit two naps into the day, as he wasn't able to cope with just one. I still have to wake him from his nap now so that he will go to bed at a reasonable hour. Clara's naps are only just starting to lengthen and settle down into a regular schedule and I do wake her from naps when necessary too. I have recently started waking her from her morning nap by 11 so that she will be tired enough to take a long nap at about 1.30ish. However in the situation you described I agree with the others that there probably isn't much point in waking her and just try for a cat-nap later.

As for me, we have been doing controlled crying which has been miraculous in helping Clara to self-settle for naps, bedtimes, and night-wakings. However we are still having about a gazillion night wakings. Does anyone have any idea why? I am only feeding her once a night now and she doesn't seem hungry at the other wakings. However I counted and last night she woke up ten times! Five of these were just momentary arousals for 1 or 2 minutes, which I presume is just her way of transitioning sleep cycles. The others were mostly less than ten minutes but one was twenty minutes. She doesn't usually really properly cry when she wakes up, just sort of moany sleep crying. Could it be chronic over-tiredness causing her to wake up so often? She has dropped her third nap over the last few weeks and she is needing a much earlier bedtime. I managed to get her down at 6.35 today but I think she might need to go to bed even earlier as she was showing tired signs from about six. I find it hard to manage to get her down earlier though as dinner time is usually 5.30 but I think we might need to eat earlier for a bit. I keep wondering if there's something medically wrong that I'm missing. Ten wakings just seems totally excessive when there's no apparent reason for her to wake and she's able to settle herself back to sleep.


----------



## Noelle610

polaris, that's good to know. I've heard that the 2-1 nap transition is hard, but once you're firmly on one nap it makes life so much easier! I am definitely looking foward to that. 

To rule out anything medical, you may want to take her to the doctor just to ensure there's no ear infection. 

That said, I suspect it's just part of the learning curve since they're really partial arousals. In his book, Ferber talks about how babies while learning to self soothe will still wake, but put themselves back to sleep relatively quickly. 

It could also be that she's overtired. How long is she awake between the last nap and bedtime? Charlotte's really sensitive to that wake time. I know I've posted this chart before, but I think it's a good guideline - I would use the times recommended for 7/8 month olds just transitioning to two naps. I think you'll slowly be able to stretch her out until she has a more "normal" bedtime. 

7/8 months (just transitioning to 2 naps): 2.25-2.5/2.5-2.75/2.5-3

That basically indicates the suggested amount of "awake time" between naps. So your routine would go something like this:

7:00am awake 

9:15am10:30am nap 1

1:15pm-3:00pm nap 2

6:00pm bedtime

Or something like that.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/11GHo4keUb2TVJUlSL1kD6HQcEgaNFBmzoQoOzcpcyas/edit?hl=en&authkey=CPXE1bsO&pli=1#


----------



## polaris

Thanks Noelle. Her schedule at the moment is generally something like this - 

Wake-up - 7.30 (I generally have to wake her at 7.30 as she would sleep longer)
Nap 1 - 9.30 - 11 (Again I generally have to wake her at 11 because I need to get out somewhere with my three year old before lunch and also because ideally I want her to take her second nap at the same time as he is napping)
Nap 2 - 1.30 - 3ish (today she slept until 3.20)
Bedtime - had been 7 p.m. so 3.5 to 4 hours of awake time which I agree is too long. She went to sleep like a dream at 6.35 today and hasn't stirred yet.

I am really going to aim to have her in bed between 6 and 6.30 and see if it makes a difference to her night time sleep. Thomas definitely needed a 6.30p.m. bedtime at her age if I remember correctly. The problem I have with Clara is that she is so happy and laid-back that she actually doesn't get cranky or difficult when she's tired and it makes it too easy to keep her up for too long. With Thomas it wasn't really tempting to keep him up too long because he would just cry.


----------



## MiniKiwi

We had a great night last night, another 1 waking night. She slept 7pm through until 2 then she was up for an hour and 15 minutes and back to sleep until 7am. As far as motn parties go, that's a nice, short one :)


----------



## Noelle610

polaris said:


> Thanks Noelle. Her schedule at the moment is generally something like this -
> 
> Wake-up - 7.30 (I generally have to wake her at 7.30 as she would sleep longer)
> Nap 1 - 9.30 - 11 (Again I generally have to wake her at 11 because I need to get out somewhere with my three year old before lunch and also because ideally I want her to take her second nap at the same time as he is napping)
> Nap 2 - 1.30 - 3ish (today she slept until 3.20)
> Bedtime - had been 7 p.m. so 3.5 to 4 hours of awake time which I agree is too long. She went to sleep like a dream at 6.35 today and hasn't stirred yet.
> 
> I am really going to aim to have her in bed between 6 and 6.30 and see if it makes a difference to her night time sleep. Thomas definitely needed a 6.30p.m. bedtime at her age if I remember correctly. The problem I have with Clara is that she is so happy and laid-back that she actually doesn't get cranky or difficult when she's tired and it makes it too easy to keep her up for too long. With Thomas it wasn't really tempting to keep him up too long because he would just cry.

I would definitely try for an earlier bedtime. 3.5-4 hour is sometimes too long for my 10 month old, who is well rested :) 

I do think it's hard with easy-going kids because they often don't show "sleep signs". For now, I'd go by the clock. I know it goes agains the general advise to "read your baby and not the book", but it just doesn't work for all kids (including my own).


----------



## Noelle610

MiniKiwi said:


> We had a great night last night, another 1 waking night. She slept 7pm through until 2 then she was up for an hour and 15 minutes and back to sleep until 7am. As far as motn parties go, that's a nice, short one :)

:happydance:


----------



## Boo44

Larkspur said:


> Hey all!!!!
> 
> You can probably tell by the use of exclamation marks that that was a cheery greeting and here's why: TWO WAKE UPS. Yes, that's right, just over a week into our 'preparation for starting gentle sleep training', we are down to two wakeups (post-dreamfeed).
> 
> This is a major improvement from as many as eight wakeups. Last night, I got two three-hour blocks of sleep from 10.30-1.30 and then 2-5am. Then he had one more feed and went back down till almost 6.30 (which, again, is a lot better than the recent pattern of starting his day at 5.30am and crashing out for a first nap around 7.30am.
> 
> Tonight, the proper no-tears self-settling starts. So far, I've been unlatching him before he falls asleep, and then putting him in his cot really really drowsy (eyes closed). Sometimes I've jiggled him a little to get him just awake enough. Then, if he starts stirring, I shush and pat him down in the cot (often putting my head on his chest, that calms him right down) until he goes to sleep. I've been hearing him wake during the night (hard not to, he sleeps about a foot away from me) and settling back to sleep. So tonight we're starting with putting him down eyes open. Wish me luck!
> 
> Shadowy and Noelle, glad to hear the sleep is better! Bananaz, hope it improves!!

Good luck Larkspur!!

Yay mini that's great, go Mia!!

Notnic - there is nothing worse than a milk strike! Before solids I was so anxious re his milk intake and it would stress me out sooo much when he refused it! I'm sure Finlay will be back on track soon poor little thing 

Shadowy am so pleased the poop thjng is on the way out! Jack still has one in his nappy most mornings when I go in to him! But usually it's around half 6 so I can cope with that :)


----------



## NotNic

I think you've seen Finlay's photo. If you have you'd believe me when I say he's never had a food strike before! Sure he gets full and turns his head away and sometimes you can see in his face he isn't really enjoying what he's eating or drinking, but he'll persevere with it. (Apart from a Quorn scotch egg - but then who could blame him :haha:) It's really unsettling. Can't tell if milk still isn't sitting well in his tummy or if he's taken the dropping the daytime milk literally! :shrug: When he is well he has a very good diet, so that wouldn't necessarily be too bad and I could make sure he was topped up with a multivitamin. ATM though its very plain and basic, so I'm keeping up with the dioralyte drinks just to make sure he's at least properly hydrated. We've even had to introduce a water dream feed in and have a bottle in his cot for the morming. I'm not brave enough to try milk just in case it makes him queasy.


----------



## gaiagirl

Well ladies, sounds like lots have had good nights! Yay!

Good luck Larkspur!

For the past two evenings, my LO (also a Fin but Finley) has slept past the first sleep cycle at bedtime! Might not seem exciting but he has NEVER done that and now twice in a row. Bed at 8, first wake at 10. We still have the 2-3 hour issue but this is still a win!

I've actually kept him up a bit longer before bed. About 2.5/3 hours which goes against advice but just might be right for him! Still only 2 hours awake at a time between naps though.

He's been pretty good from 8-8 for a few days now. And he's in his room until midnight usually, then in with me.

Now if we could get back to the 4-5 hour stretches please.....


----------



## Sunnie1984

Hi ladies, 

Sorry for the long absence, I've been feeling a bit under the weather and had no energy to do much other than look after Seren. 

Seren has been STTN until two nights ago though, so at least I'm rested! 

I've only gone back 5 pages to comment, so I'm sorry if I've missed anyone out. 

Noelle - Glad you had some STTN with Charlotte. I think that once they hit all the major physical milestones (so probably walking) it should settle down, certainly the wonder weeks space themselves out, so it should give us more breaks of good sleep at the very least. 

Vikkid - we're having nap trouble here too. Don't worry about the TV, if it got him to sleep it's worth it - we usually use Sky News, it works a treat! :haha:

Bananaz - Sorry Elsie is having trouble settling. I wonder whether it's because she's ready to nap transition and so she's a little under tired going to bed (in terms of all of her combined sleep - not because she's not tired at bed time). :flower:

I did wonder the other night whether it would be better to just get the sides off the cot as soon as Seren can walk properly (it turns into a toddler bed) and just deal with the night wakings before I can get too used to long stretches of STTN! 

Polaris - It makes me feel loads better that your three year old was a terrible sleeper and now is great! 

Notnic - Sorry you had some rough nights. At least you have some teeth through, I get really frustrated when Seren teethes but has nothing to show for it, it means we were both up in the night for nothing! :winkwink:

Hope you are both feeling better now, I agree on keeping him hydrated as much as possible. For food, as long as you offer regularly and he's eating something, I wouldn't worry too much. We can survive for quite a while on only a bit of food, as long as we are hydrated. 

Pompey - Is it possible Annabelle needs a bit more awake time in the morning to get a longer first nap? If you can get a good long first nap, she might be better?

Shadowy - Yay for STTN and no night pooping! So glad it seems to have sorted itself, hopefully your changes have had an effect long term. 

I do wake Seren if she naps over two hours (not that this really happens). Or I wake her when I think it will mess up bedtime (so she's only allowed 15 minutes after 4pm or she won't go to bed on time). I agree with the others though, I doubt you'd have gotten her back down at 2pm. 

Larkspur - Congratulations, sounds like you are making fabulous progress. Be ready for a slight regression (most babies have them as they resist the change) and just be consistent and the great results should continue. :thumbup:


As for us...

Well I'm 28, nearly 29 to answer the previous question! 

We were doing great here, she was STTN which was great. 

Still tweaking naps, had a massive overtired meltdown on Friday night, but she still STTN. 

Now she's been awake 4 or 5 times a night the past two nights, but I think it's because she's finally learning how to crawl forwards. She's been doing all four rocking and downward dog (google this if you don't know what it is, it's pretty funny) but today took two crawls forwards. 

She's not done it since, but I'm hoping that will sort out the night wakings. 

I've found with naps she's got variable awake times depending on the night, when she wakes, and how she is feeling. :haha: So i have to wait until she cries because she's so tired, them put her down. 

Seems that she is more sensitive to undertired rather than overtired. I got a 1 hour nap followed by a 2 hour nap yesterday, which has to be a record. 


Did anyone find that when naps started to consolidate they got early wakings? Seren has been waking at 5am, stirring for a bit, then going back to sleep until 6:15 ish. Did it sort itself out in the end? 

x


----------



## polaris

Hi everyone! 

Well either Clara is just naturally adjusting to self-settling quickly during the night or the early bedtime helped! She still cried out a few times during the night but we only had two actual waking, one at 3 p.m. where she moaned for about ten minutes and then went back to sleep without me going in to her, and one at 4.30 when she was actually crying so I fed her and she went back to sleep until 7.30!

So she slept 6.30 to 7.30 in her own cot with only one feed and only one other short wake-up! This is a miracle considering she has been waking literally every hour since she was about five months old.


----------



## mrsbeano

Polaris - you can join the 'at 7/8 months it got a lot better' club!


----------



## Boo44

Sunnie, I have definitely found that once his naps consolidated into 2 long naps per day we have ended up with many early mornings. Early for us is 6am. We have anything now from 6-7.20am (the 7.20 is amazing and has happened twice in 3 months!) and it's lasted for weeks on end! I've actually accepted it now and just go to bed early. The difference is also that before he always did wake around half 6 but I could put his dummy in and he'd sleep another hour. These days he's just much more alert and knows what's going on, so going in to give him his dummy makes no difference. 
Most mornings I can leave him there until 7am (the earliest we ever get him out of bed) and he'll play fairly quietly and I can snooze. I followed bananaz' advice and popped a few cuddly toys in with him (and 4 dummies!) and he entertains himself lol


----------



## Boo44

Also - seren is doing so well crawling at 6 months!! Jack is still not crawling lol! But he does throw himself forward now which is an improvement :haha:

Well done Clara that's amazing! 

I love the names seren and Clara! I'm keeping these pretty names in mind for baby no 2 :haha:


----------



## VikkiD

Well I thing taking the dummy off Daniel is working well. Last night he went bed just before 7 and slept till 5am had a feed at 5 then back down till 6:45 :) fingers crossed for a repeat tonight. Just got to work on me sttn now


----------



## Noelle610

Wow, I'm so happy to read about all of these great nights! What happened to all of these bad sleepers? :haha:

Sunnie, those early wake-ups are sometimes indicative of a nap transition. Your LO is probably ready for some more wake-time! Naps absolutely consolidated and got longer for us when we went to 2. I'd try the 2/3/4 pattern. I think eventually you will find she lengthens the morning wake time to 3 hours. Oh and those wakings? Crawling for sure.

Charlotte is still sleeping amazingly. Honestly, though, it's making me nervous. I'm worried she's ill. She had a high fever on Saturday and she's fine now, but refusing a lot of food and drink. Ugh. If it's not sleep, it's something else.


----------



## Shadowy Lady

Polaris - awesome! So glad Clara is doing better :)

Sunnie - good on Seren for crawling already. Sofia crawls backwards and to the side, lol! Not forward yet though.

Larkspur - awesome progress and way to go Rafe!!

Sofia did pretty good last night. I went to the bathroom at 4 am and my toe hit the door stopper by accident (my poor toe) but i was so loud that I woke her up (our bathroom is in between her room and ours)...so she woke up annoyed and whined for 30 mins and went to sleep. She ended up sleeping till 8:15 am which is kinda late for her.

I'm gonna count last night as another good night for Sofia. Not so much for me coz I couldn't sleep after 4 am and my lil toe is swollen :/


----------



## bananaz

Yay, I'm glad to see most of you are having better sleep!

*Sunnie* - My LO is the same way - she can tolerate being overtired pretty well but putting her down when she's undertired is a recipe for disaster. And I bet those night wakings will sort themselves out once Seren has got the crawling sorted out! I know that's a big sleep disturber for a lot of babies.


We had another good night here! She slept from 7:30pm to 5am, when I fed her. Then she fussed off and on for maybe 45 minutes before going back to sleep until 7am. I guess all I need to do is threaten CIO and she gets her act together :rolleyes:


----------



## pachamama

I'm really very inspired by you all!

And needing some more advice if I may...

I've been using a dummy with my lo who is 10 weeks old now and just this last week he's dropped to one night feed (4oz) at 1-2am... but he still wakes on average 4/5 other times to have his dummy replaced. After his 1-2am feed, for the last 2 nights I've swaddled him and popped him down on the bed whilst I was ferreting around with expressing equipment and he's fallen asleep with no dummy!! Is there any way of building on this? I've managed to pat him to sleep for all his daytime naps today but he just seems unable to sleep for longer than 45 mins without his dummy... If he wakes in the night, should I pick him up and pat him back to sleep rather than give him the dummy? Is this replacing one prop with another?

Any thoughts or advice - I never had similar issues with my first lo.

Many thanks in advance.

x


----------



## Noelle610

More great nights! Happy to hear this.



pachamama said:


> I'm really very inspired by you all!
> 
> And needing some more advice if I may...
> 
> I've been using a dummy with my lo who is 10 weeks old now and just this last week he's dropped to one night feed (4oz) at 1-2am... but he still wakes on average 4/5 other times to have his dummy replaced. After his 1-2am feed, for the last 2 nights I've swaddled him and popped him down on the bed whilst I was ferreting around with expressing equipment and he's fallen asleep with no dummy!! Is there any way of building on this? I've managed to pat him to sleep for all his daytime naps today but he just seems unable to sleep for longer than 45 mins without his dummy... If he wakes in the night, should I pick him up and pat him back to sleep rather than give him the dummy? Is this replacing one prop with another?
> 
> Any thoughts or advice - I never had similar issues with my first lo.
> 
> Many thanks in advance.
> 
> x

Ditch it cold turkey :) Sounds like he's fine without and you'll likely avoid those extra wakings after a few days. Easier to do it now than later.


----------



## pachamama

Damn! I just cracked and used the dummy for his most recent nap as patting wasn't working and I hadn"t read your reply. I don"t have lots of time as have another lo.

Have I ruined everything?

x

p.s thanks for replying. And I've only ever used dummy at bedtime and to put back to sleep overnight so am a bit worried...


----------



## Noelle610

pachamama said:


> Damn! I just cracked and used the dummy for his most recent nap as patting wasn't working and I hadn"t read your reply. I don"t have lots of time as have another lo.
> 
> Have I ruined everything?
> 
> x
> 
> p.s thanks for replying. And I've only ever used dummy at bedtime and to put back to sleep overnight so am a bit worried...

No way! You don't have to give it up either.


----------



## pachamama

But if I don't give it up, won't I be waking up loads just to put the dummy back in again? oh, I feel like I'm getting into a pickle. Just don't know what to do for the best.

I guess my lo's still really young and things could change...

x


----------



## Noelle610

pachamama said:


> But if I don't give it up, won't I be waking up loads just to put the dummy back in again? oh, I feel like I'm getting into a pickle. Just don't know what to do for the best.
> 
> I guess my lo's still really young and things could change...
> 
> x

He might and he might not. It's kind of the risk you run with the dummy. Mine never woke for it, but I know it can be a problem for others. If I were in your shoes, I'd probably continue using it until it becomes a real problem :hugs:


----------



## pachamama

Noelle610 said:


> pachamama said:
> 
> 
> But if I don't give it up, won't I be waking up loads just to put the dummy back in again? oh, I feel like I'm getting into a pickle. Just don't know what to do for the best.
> 
> I guess my lo's still really young and things could change...
> 
> x
> 
> He might and he might not. It's kind of the risk you run with the dummy. Mine never woke for it, but I know it can be a problem for others. If I were in your shoes, I'd probably continue using it until it becomes a real problem :hugs:Click to expand...


You're right. I'm getting my knickers in a twist over 4/5 night wakings for a dummy. Will wait it out for a while and see what happens. Thanks.:flower:

x


----------



## mellyboo

I think its safe to say Jordyn can self soothe officially.. All we need to do is lay her down, give her the suckie, she does whine for a bit (not crying) we watched her what she does is plays with her sookie blanket and pass's out.. some times we can tell shes lost her suckie and we no she wont fall asleep with out it so we just run upstairs and give it to her and she turns her head and falls asleep.. 
her bed time routine is the same thing...
I thought my day would never come.. long may it continue.

Are only issue now is night wakings, but honestly as long as she's not waking up every 30 minutes im fine.. im starting to notice she is sleeping longer stretches and her nap time in the morning went from 20 minutes to 2 hours.. !!! holy change.


----------



## Noelle610

Wow, that's great melly! I know what it's like to have low expectations... At least you can sleep a little in between a 2 hour stretch! 30 minutes, you've got no hope.

How do you respond to her night wakings? How often does she feed?


----------



## mellyboo

Im confused on her night wakings, SUPER confused.. I dont want her in habit to eat every single time she wake's up because IMO she can go 4 hours with out eating during the day and she always has an extra big bottle before bed 8 oz which during the day she is usually a 6oz kind of baby right now.

I always offer her the suckie first usually this works but if she keeps rolling in her crib and getting upset i sort of no she is wanting her bottle i give it to her she will drink 2-3oz and fall asleep on me and i try pulling the bottle out of her mouth to see if she will start sucking again she some times does other times she's snoaring in my arms! lol

Some time's we dont even go through 5 oz from 7-9am but mostly we go through prob about 8 oz.

One of her biggest feeds she will take is at 6am i find and then she's out till 830-9am

I have to admit some times i sit on her rocking chair and let her drink her own bottle in her crib she holds it, i no your not suppose to do that but for some reason she will want to lay down in my arms to drink her bottle too thats just how she perfers it.


----------



## pompeyvix

Thanks for your advice Noelle and Bananaz. The thing is, she isn't getting 14 hours sleep a night as although she is down at 8pm and up between 9 and 10am, she spends a least an hour or two between these times awake. Rather than cry for us, she is happy to play with her rabbit & mobile and take herself back to sleep.

But none the less, I get what you are both saying and I think I will tough it out with the one or two 30 min daytime naps as her sleep may well change again anyway :)


----------



## Noelle610

Melly, I'd try to aim for no more than two night feeds. Use 4 hours as your cut-off time. It sounds like she's comfort sucking more than taking full feeds. She probably needs one between midnight and 2am and then again in the early morning hours (like 4am-6am). 

Pompey, when is she up during that time?


----------



## mellyboo

Noelle610 said:


> Melly, I'd try to aim for no more than two night feeds. Use 4 hours as your cut-off time. It sounds like she's comfort sucking more than taking full feeds. She probably needs one between midnight and 2am and then again in the early morning hours (like 4am-6am).
> 
> Pompey, when is she up during that time?

Thats what im thinking too, comfort sucking big time!

I'm going to try that tonight.. she goes down around 730 lately, she will always wake up around 12 midnight if she falls asleep closer to 8pm its always around 1 or 2am.

Then she always wakes around 4-6 always i think i might keep track on my phone when she wakes up etc just so maybe i can see a pattern more.. because half the time i have no idea what im doing im so darn tired.. OH always asks how many times im up i cant even tell him half the time! lol


----------



## pompeyvix

Noelle610 said:


> Melly, I'd try to aim for no more than two night feeds. Use 4 hours as your cut-off time. It sounds like she's comfort sucking more than taking full feeds. She probably needs one between midnight and 2am and then again in the early morning hours (like 4am-6am).
> 
> Pompey, when is she up during that time?

She tends to be awake for half an hour around 11/11.30. My husband gets up for work at 5 and 9/10 mornings she is awake then too (She has a feed at midnight & she used to have a feed at 5, but recently dropped it so not sure if those wake up times are linked in some way). I am not sure how long she is awake for at 5, as she is already awake when his alarm goes off and then I go back to sleep myself. She may also wake between midnight and 5am, but as I am asleep I don't know !


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## Noelle610

Okay, gotcha. The 5am wake-up in somewhat normal. It's a period of light sleep for babies and they often wake and go back to sleep.

I wish I had more advice for you, but I think until she sleeps less overnight you may just have to cope with the crap naps! Sorry mama.


----------



## Noelle610

Good luck melly!


----------



## pompeyvix

No worries! I guess it's just the trade off of having no naps vs earlier wake up time & lots of naps. But there is no guarantee she will sleep for longer than 30 mins a time even if I do wake her up early, so I am gonna stick with how we are. Thanks for your help tho x


----------



## Boo44

bananaz said:


> Yay, I'm glad to see most of you are having better sleep!
> 
> *Sunnie* - My LO is the same way - she can tolerate being overtired pretty well but putting her down when she's undertired is a recipe for disaster. And I bet those night wakings will sort themselves out once Seren has got the crawling sorted out! I know that's a big sleep disturber for a lot of babies.
> 
> 
> We had another good night here! She slept from 7:30pm to 5am, when I fed her. Then she fussed off and on for maybe 45 minutes before going back to sleep until 7am. I guess all I need to do is threaten CIO and she gets her act together :rolleyes:

Hang on a minute 7.30 until 5 then back to sleep until 7?! That's freaking amazing!!! Am so used to hearing that she's had a bad night that I find this really exciting :) yay x


----------



## NotNic

Melly my oh often asks about the wake ups and then tells me he's got up at least once. Funny how I may have been up 5 or 6 times and missed that one! I honestly couldn't tell you what last night was like but I do know he woke at 6am as usual, then chatted, then started squealing and jumping up and down in his cot because he spotted the cat. OH slept through that!


----------



## Pinkgirl

Hello Everyone. So glad i found this thread and going to spend some time going through and getting some ideas to help.
I have a 8 month old basically this is our story:

He had lots of problems feeding due to tongue and lip tie, he sufferd with reflux so was very restless when trying to sleep. This went when i cut out diary.(expressed for 7 months due to being unable to latch).He then started sleeping longer stints around 3/4 from 9-3 ish and then back down by 4 till 8. He started sleeping through when we put him to bed around 10. Recently we put the side on the cot (used it as a cosleeper) this he didnt like and took lots of getting use to. Normally he goes to bed at half 7 fine. but recently been waking up at 3...but am able to get him back to sleep then awake at 5 and feed him. Before he would sleep longer. Last night he went to bed late 8.30 and actually did sleep through till 5.30 Is this normal? should he sleep longer? He has an hour nap in the morning but time varies and the same in the afternoon. He is my first and never really knew what routine i should get him in it happened naturally. He feed at 5-5.30 and breakfast around 7.30.

I can't complain that he has slept through the last two nights but the early wake up calls are hard!! lol
xx


----------



## NotNic

Pinkgirl, I'm no expert but there are a lot of us with 8/9mth old babies struggling with the early starts. My son is wired to wake at 6am regardless of bedtime, though we got some delightful 5am starts awhile ago. Are you always feeding your baby at 5.30am, or have you recently dropped a night feed? My son doesn't eat through the night anymore so I encourage him to play by ignoring his chatter and letting him have a chance to entertain himself. Sometimes he ends up dozing. I also will not bring him into our room before he has a chance to try to go back to sleep (OHs tactic), so no pre 6.15am cuddles for us and I try not to go into the nursery unless he's really upset or smelly. I think the early starts are a pretty common side effect of them beginning to sleep longer.


----------



## bananaz

*Pinkgirl* - Like NotNic said, I think that early wakings at that age can definitely be developmental, though there are other potential causes. Hopefully it will go back to normal soon. What time is his first nap?


My LO had another one-nap day, only this time the nap was 2 hours long and it might've been longer if I hadn't had to wake her up. I tried to get her to take a little catnap in the afternoon but she wouldn't go for it so she was really cranky by the evening. A lot of that might have been due to teething, though (those upper lateral incisors are horrible!). It will be interesting to see how tonight goes. 

I don't think I'm ready for this transition to happen so soon. Almost 7 hours of awake time feels like forever with a fussy, teething, high-needs baby :wacko:


----------



## Shadowy Lady

Bananaz - 7 hour does seem like a long time to be awake for a baby. Does she protest if you just put her in her crib and let her be?

eeeek we had a MOTN party after like 2 months :/ She woke up at 3:30 am and would not go back to sleep till 5 am. She wasn't hungry (would not take boob or bottle), hadn't pooped, was not in pain (gave her Advil at 3 am)...she was just moving around her crib screaming away...and not a "I'm in pain scream" more like "I'm awake and wanna happily scream" kind! Once she went to sleep she slept till 7 am. Of course the MOTN party was rough on both DH and I so today we're tired, grumpy and fighting over trivial things.

Wonder what the heck this is. She teases me with 5-7 days of sttn and then something else happens :?


----------



## Noelle610

Bananaz, that does seem like a long time! At the end of the day, we can't make them sleep as hard as we might try!

Ugh, Shadowy Lady! Righ there with you! We have five blissful nights of STTN without a peed 11+ hours and last night was tough. To update you girls, Charlotte had a high fever on Saturday and she's been refusing most food and drink this week. DH took her to the pediatrician yesterday - turns out she has ulcers on the back of her throat as a result of the fever AND she's about to get her fangs, so she's in a lot of pain. She slept find last night from 7pm until around 3am, when she just really could not go back to sleep. She woke on an off until around 6am despite advil. Poor kid.


----------



## VikkiD

Last night wasn't great but wasn't to bad, lo went down just before 7 sounded restless alot of the night woke at 11 managed to settle himself woke at 1 for a feed went back down an was up for the day at 5:15


----------



## Noelle610

Vikki, that sounds great!


----------



## VikkiD

Noelle610 said:


> Vikki, that sounds great!

Yes much better than the hourly wake ups definately think it was the dummy causing it.
I just feel so shattered as I lie there waiting for him to wake up.


----------



## Noelle610

VikkiD said:


> Noelle610 said:
> 
> 
> Vikki, that sounds great!
> 
> Yes much better than the hourly wake ups definately think it was the dummy causing it.
> I just feel so shattered as I lie there waiting for him to wake up.Click to expand...

Yeah, those hourly wakings are killer! You don't even have time to really sleep in between.


----------



## Boo44

Ugh am NOT looking forward to the fang teeth then!

We are having a strange time at the moment. I think and presume he's teething. His top front two teeth. They are all bumpy on the gums but no cutting through yet. He's cranky and pooing ALL the time. I could cry with how much he's pooping! 5 so far today and it's lunch time. His bottom is red raw :( I took him to drs on wed and they gave me daktacort which is hydrocortisone and an anti fungal. Well I swear this has made it worse. His bum was bleeding this morning :( :( So I've been to tesco and am now using bepanthen. I just want him to stop pooping its mental. I think it must be teething causing it???

We've had a week of 7.30-6 or 6.30 sttn. Then last night he cried at 2am obviously pain so I rushed in and he'd pooped (!!!!!!) so I changed him in his cot and luckily he just self-settled and went straight back to sleep until 6.30am. 

I just don't know what to do about the pooping it's not fun at all


----------



## Noelle610

Boo44 said:


> Ugh am NOT looking forward to the fang teeth then!
> 
> We are having a strange time at the moment. I think and presume he's teething. His top front two teeth. They are all bumpy on the gums but no cutting through yet. He's cranky and pooing ALL the time. I could cry with how much he's pooping! 5 so far today and it's lunch time. His bottom is red raw :( I took him to drs on wed and they gave me daktacort which is hydrocortisone and an anti fungal. Well I swear this has made it worse. His bum was bleeding this morning :( :( So I've been to tesco and am now using bepanthen. I just want him to stop pooping its mental. I think it must be teething causing it???
> 
> We've had a week of 7.30-6 or 6.30 sttn. Then last night he cried at 2am obviously pain so I rushed in and he'd pooped (!!!!!!) so I changed him in his cot and luckily he just self-settled and went straight back to sleep until 6.30am.
> 
> I just don't know what to do about the pooping it's not fun at all

It's probably the teething. My understanding is that the excessive saliva causes the frequently poos. 

What a great week, Boo! Hope he feels better soon :hugs:


----------



## VikkiD

We had bad poops for a few days before lo cut his top tooth it came through on Sunday. He's had bad poop as well today so not sure if its still the same tooth or another he won't let me look in his mouth


----------



## Boo44

Thanks girls! I hope it is teething. I want them to pop through to give his little bum a rest :haha:

Yes noelle it's good isn't it! Don't want to jinx it so I hadn't mentioned. But now he woke last night I feel the run has been broken and I can 'relax' again. Lol! How backwards haha


----------



## Shadowy Lady

maaaan last night seemed to have been a bad one for a lot of formerly good sleepers :/

Boo - I'm kinda convinced that Sofia's MOTN pooping had to do with her cold. Since her nose was so runny, she kept swallowing saliva even though we would suck it out before bedtime. She's also super drooly these days. I'm not sure if she's teething or not.

Noelle - sorry to hear Charlotte is poorly again :( Poor baby...I sometimes wonder how affective Advil is for them...

Btw guys, is there a wonder week around week 32? I'm just trying to understand why on Earth she's waking up now (no poop, not hungry, not in pain...)


----------



## Noelle610

WW37 - I think the fussy period begins at week 32 and peaks around 34... sorry hun!


----------



## Shadowy Lady

Noelle610 said:


> WW37 - I think the fussy period begins at week 32 and peaks around 34... sorry hun!

ughhh I shoulda enjoyed my 5 nights of sttn more :sleep: she seems to go through annoying sleep bits for just one week though (4 months regression was a week, MOTN pooping was a week,...). Hoping this is the same or less:coffee:


----------



## Noelle610

Shadowy Lady said:


> Noelle610 said:
> 
> 
> WW37 - I think the fussy period begins at week 32 and peaks around 34... sorry hun!
> 
> ughhh I shoulda enjoyed my 5 nights of sttn more :sleep: she seems to go through annoying sleep bits for just one week though (4 months regression was a week, MOTN pooping was a week,...). Hoping this is the same or less:coffee:Click to expand...

It was only a few days or maybe a week of disrupted sleep for us. Here's hoping the same for you!


----------



## gaiagirl

Sounds like an eventful night all around! My LO had a weird evening and refused bed until 9:30 as he sometimes does...but then slept pretty well after that, mostly 2 hour stretches with one 4 hour. 

I'm not sure I can still call this the 4 month regression? It's officially been over a month now...


----------



## NotNic

Our 4mth regression took two months to recover and our 37ww gave us 5-6weeks of dodgy sleep too. I would say that they have been the worst WWs for us. It's hard to blame his current behaviour on a WW because of everything else that has happened. He is so whiny and constantly climbing up my leg. He is in a lot of pain with these teeth. The other two at the top seem to be coming down now, but all of his fangs seem white. Surely that's too many teeth coming through at once. We are still refusing milk and not keen on water either. He's being very pickly! Xx


----------



## Noelle610

Yup, 2 months of sleep regression here too!


----------



## bananaz

Noelle610 said:


> Yup, 2 months of sleep regression here too!

Same here. 5-7 months was dreadful.


----------



## Boo44

Notnic - I love the saying 'pickly' that's so cute! Not sure if you meant 'picky' but I'm going to call Jack pickly now every time he's in a strop :haha:

I have no idea how many weeks old jack is any more! I can't even be bothered to work it out lol!


----------



## NotNic

I definitely meant pickly! Finlay is a big pickle! :) I'm glad it's not just me. I have to check my Bounty weekly newsletter before I put his age down when he gets weighed. :blush:


----------



## gaiagirl

Ok so I'm not alone! Lol. Honestly it's a bit scary how used to it I am now. I woke up feeling happy and refreshed today!?!? I guess we did have a fairly good night but still, bizarre what I consider good now!

He had the oral Rotavirus vaccine Wed and so far today naps have been majorly foiled by poops! Thinking he has an upset tummy...


----------



## Shadowy Lady

So Sofia sat down unassisted for a long period of time today....as in 30 mins while usually she'd fall over after a couple of minutes. She now wants to sit all the time.

I'm hoping the disturbed sleep was related to this milestone and stops tonight *crosses fingers*


----------



## Larkspur

Great to hear about Sofia's sitting, *Shadowy*! Rafe is definitely working hard on his crawl at the moment - he has conquered cruising the furniture and has returned his attention to the floorwork. :haha:

Update on the 'breaking-the-nursing-to-sleep-association'...

Two nights ago I tried changing up the routine to add a story in after nursing so I could put him down tired-but-awake. Well, NO GO. Two hours of fussing, angry-face, screeching every time he went in the cot, etc. Finally I gave up, nursed him and held till super-drowsy like usual, and put him in the cot. It was a bit of a fractious night, but not too bad (four wakings). 

Then, last night, I just returned to the nurse-till-super-drowsy and put down technique, which had resulted in the two wakeups (post-dreamfeed) two nights earlier. Another night of two wakeups! (1.30am, 4.30am). Then, he woke again at 6am, which I figured was the start of the day, since I'd put him down at 6.30pm. But NO, he had another feed and back to sleep till 7.30! OH and I were in heaven. We basically had two good 3+ hour stretches of sleep, then 1.5 and then another 1.5 which is the best since the start of the sleep regression three months ago! 

I think putting down awake is too much for LO at the moment, and as two wakeups is something I can easily live with, I'm just going to keep proceeding with the really gentle reduction of the nursing association. I'm in no rush now. When it was eight times a night, that was really hard work but twice is totally manageable.


----------



## bananaz

Larkspur said:


> Update on the 'breaking-the-nursing-to-sleep-association'...
> 
> Two nights ago I tried changing up the routine to add a story in after nursing so I could put him down tired-but-awake. Well, NO GO. Two hours of fussing, angry-face, screeching every time he went in the cot, etc. Finally I gave up, nursed him and held till super-drowsy like usual, and put him in the cot. It was a bit of a fractious night, but not too bad (four wakings).
> 
> Then, last night, I just returned to the nurse-till-super-drowsy and put down technique, which had resulted in the two wakeups (post-dreamfeed) two nights earlier. Another night of two wakeups! (1.30am, 4.30am). Then, he woke again at 6am, which I figured was the start of the day, since I'd put him down at 6.30pm. But NO, he had another feed and back to sleep till 7.30! OH and I were in heaven. We basically had two good 3+ hour stretches of sleep, then 1.5 and then another 1.5 which is the best since the start of the sleep regression three months ago!
> 
> I think putting down awake is too much for LO at the moment, and as two wakeups is something I can easily live with, I'm just going to keep proceeding with the really gentle reduction of the nursing association. I'm in no rush now. When it was eight times a night, that was really hard work but twice is totally manageable.


I'm so happy to hear that the improvement is continuing! And for what it's worth, I didn't really make any effort to stop nursing my LO to sleep at night but she started pulling off on her own while still awake and now she throws herself back and fusses until I put her in her crib. She's been sleeping 7-9 hour stretches most nights for over a month now. So it is possible to keep nursing right before bed and still get some sleep!


----------



## VikkiD

Last night was pretty must same as the night before bed 7 up at 1 for a feed up at 5:30 for the day


----------



## polaris

bananaz said:


> Larkspur said:
> 
> 
> Update on the 'breaking-the-nursing-to-sleep-association'...
> 
> Two nights ago I tried changing up the routine to add a story in after nursing so I could put him down tired-but-awake. Well, NO GO. Two hours of fussing, angry-face, screeching every time he went in the cot, etc. Finally I gave up, nursed him and held till super-drowsy like usual, and put him in the cot. It was a bit of a fractious night, but not too bad (four wakings).
> 
> Then, last night, I just returned to the nurse-till-super-drowsy and put down technique, which had resulted in the two wakeups (post-dreamfeed) two nights earlier. Another night of two wakeups! (1.30am, 4.30am). Then, he woke again at 6am, which I figured was the start of the day, since I'd put him down at 6.30pm. But NO, he had another feed and back to sleep till 7.30! OH and I were in heaven. We basically had two good 3+ hour stretches of sleep, then 1.5 and then another 1.5 which is the best since the start of the sleep regression three months ago!
> 
> I think putting down awake is too much for LO at the moment, and as two wakeups is something I can easily live with, I'm just going to keep proceeding with the really gentle reduction of the nursing association. I'm in no rush now. When it was eight times a night, that was really hard work but twice is totally manageable.
> 
> 
> I'm so happy to hear that the improvement is continuing! And for what it's worth, I didn't really make any effort to stop nursing my LO to sleep at night but she started pulling off on her own while still awake and now she throws herself back and fusses until I put her in her crib. She's been sleeping 7-9 hour stretches most nights for over a month now. So it is possible to keep nursing right before bed and still get some sleep!Click to expand...

That's what Clara does too, she throws herself backwards and arches herself back to tell me she wants to go in the cot, it's very cute!


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## izzlesnizzle

Ive tried everything to get her to sleep past 5/5.30am and I think I have to admit defeat and accept this is it until shes a teenager and starts sleeping in until 1.30pm! Then i'll be moaning that shes wasting the day and to stop being so lazy!

I tried getting up at 4.30am and repositioning her to get her into a new sleep cycle, she did then sleep until 6.30am but this morning she was up at 5.24am again. I will look back and laugh at all my attempts to stop this early morning waking!

She also woke up frequently during the night crying out probably 3 or 4 times from 8.30pm until morning. I wonder how on earth she can be overtired though. She naps really well during the day, I just don't get it. It must be the 8/9/10 mth sleep regression. 

Ive tried alsorts of configurations with naps, capping them, prolonging them to later, early bed etc etc. The one thing I haven't tried is a later bed- I daren't!

Ugh I give up :-( 5am get up start the day here we come!


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## Noelle610

Sounds like lots of progress overall!

Izzles, I'm sorry. A few of my buddies on BnB and I with poor sleepers decided we will call them after a hard night of partying when they're in university at like 4am and wake them up so they know how it feels. You can join in :)


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## Shadowy Lady

Last night was Sofia's worst night since she was born! She was up from 1:30 to 5 am!! She didn't wanna nurse, hasn't pooped just wouldn't sleep. We tried everything and finally just let her cry from 4:30 am and she fell asleep at 5 :'(

She still woke up at7:30 and looks clearly tired. I have no idea what's going on :( oh ya and we know she wasn't sick or in pain coz everytime one of us went in she would smile and try to play. I feel so shattered today, I've been up since 1:30 am and had only slept an hour or so before that...


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## Noelle610

Shadowy Lady said:


> Last night was Sofia's worst night since she was born! She was up from 1:30 to 5 am!! She didn't wanna nurse, hasn't pooped just wouldn't sleep. We tried everything and finally just let her cry from 4:30 am and she fell asleep at 5 :'(
> 
> She still woke up at7:30 and looks clearly tired. I have no idea what's going on :( oh ya and we know she wasn't sick or in pain coz everytime one of us went in she would smile and try to play. I feel so shattered today, I've been up since 1:30 am and had only slept an hour or so before that...

Oh no, that's killer! It must be a wonder week thing.


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## polaris

Shadowy Lady :hugs: That sounds like an awful night, you must be exhausted. I think MOTN parties where they just want to play are actually the worst. So frustrating, just like "why won't you just sleep goddammit!!"

Izzles - DS was a 5.30 a.m. baby from about your LO's age until he dropped to one nap at about 15 months. Nothing helped, the only thing that worked was that I would leave him in the cot and not go in to him until 6, even if he was crying. That didn't help him to sleep any later really but it did mean that he learned to entertain himself when he woke up in the morning. So at least I could get an extra half hour or so in bed while he chatted away to himself happily. The good news is that once he dropped to one nap, he began sleeping much later in the morning, until about 7 usually and sometimes later! So there is some hope.

We have had another couple of good nights, 6.30 to 7 on Thursday night and 6.30 to 7.30 last night, with only one wake-up for a night feed at about 3ish. Can't believe the difference in Clara's sleeping in just a week!


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## Sunnie1984

Wow, I don't post for a day and there's 6 new pages! 

Polaris - Great progress! I definitely found an earlier bedtime worked with Seren, and the self settling is fabulous! 

Boo - I hope the early mornings don't continue for you too! 7:20am is amazing! I'm afraid 6:30am is the best we can hope for here! I don't get Seren until 6:30am at the earliest. 

Seren is bit too determined to get about, I'd rather she stayed still for a bit longer, but it is not going to happen! Feel free to name steal! :winkwink:

Definitely sounds like teething for poo jack. Just keep applying the cream at each nappy change, that should be enough to keep the worst of the rash away. We've joined the MOTN pooping episodes too! 

VikkiD - Great news that the no dummy is going ok. 

Noelle - Thanks, I've found she is naturally staying awake a little longer before her morning naps, I think we are heading for 3 hours awake time eventually. Poor Charlotte! I hope the pain settles down, at least to the point when advil will help! Have you also tried alternating panadol with advil? I found that alternating them gives better pain relief (it was a tip given to me by a pharmacist for myself, but I found it works just as well on Seren). 

Shadowy - I bet Sofia will just take off crawling any day now! Then we'll both need eyes in the back of our heads! That is definitely still a good night (I hope your toe is ok!).

Sorry about the MOTN party! Is she really trying to crawl? It'll be developmental again, and does sound like you are approaching WW37 (damn that means we are not far behind!)

Arrgh just go to last night, that's awful! I hope it was just a one off, but it has to be WW stuff! 

Bananaz - Seren sounds just like Elsie, even 5 minutes too early results in a 30 minute nap. Sounds like Elsie is really getting to grips with good sleep, which is just fabulous news, I hope you got some decent rest too! 

I agree with moving her awake time before the first nap up a little bit, so she's splitting the awake time between morning and afternoon, if she won't take a catnap. 

Pachamama - I'm afraid I'm going to say it's time to ditch the dummy. If he's waking 4-5 times a night just to have it put back in, it sounds like he's become a little dependant on it. It'll be a tough few days to get him to sleep another way, but then I think it'll benefit you both. 

Mellyboo - Jordyn is doing so well! I'm glad she's finally getting some restful periods of sleep! 

I think if you are ready to do some form of night weaning (or at least starting to lengthen feeds) then perhaps you should set a time limit (so no feeds unless she has gone 4 hours without a feed) and do whatever else you can to get her back to sleep (or not, as the case may be) until you hit the four hour mark? Then she should gradually stop waking for it so early. Also she should eventually move her feeds to the day time. It's slow progress but worth it in the end. 

Pinkgirl - I think as long as he is in his cot and happy, leave him to it. Seren will often go back to sleep for 30-40 minutes or so if she's left to crash around the cot for a while. It keeps me awake, but at least I'm not up yet! 


Gaiagirl - Sleep regression went on for a while here too! Sorry :flower:

Notnic - Definitely sounds like teething. Poor LO, I hope he feels better soon. 

Larkspur - Sounds like you were having great progress. It'll be tough getting him to go down for naps completely awake, but you'll get there. Seren used to before WW19, and since then, I've not made much effort to get back there. She generally STTN (depending on teething/WW/milestones etc) so I quite like the sleepy cuddles. As long as he self settles at night, I don't think you need to worry too much. 

Izzles - Persevere with the resettling at 4am, it'll take quite a few days to break the 5am habit, and babies usually regress a little before accepting the new wake up. :thumbup:


We've had some short wakings here - and last nigh I figured out why - she is sitting up and crawling in her cot - totally asleep! Then she hits her head on the bars on the way back to lying down, and wakes herself up a bit before settling. 

Although we are also having poops in the night! Last two mornings her nappy has been dirty when I got her up. So no idea when she did it, but I tihnk it's because she's semi awake during the night because of the crawling! 

We got definite crawls forward today... towards my iPad! Who knew that would be such a big incentive! Time to finish baby proofing!


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## socitycourty

hadley's sleep is still horrendous. don't know what will work but i'm losing it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Boo44

Ohhh shadowy that's a real killer :( here's hoping its just developmental with the sitting and moving, and passes really soon xxx

Good to hear from you sunnie! But sorry you've joined the poop gang :haha: Jack is going for his gold membership in this gang. This morning we had a 6am. I went to give dummy but he already had one in so I left him. Would usually leave until 7 but at 6.45 he started crying and when I went in he'd had a poop explosion. I really need to change him quickly atm as he's so sore, so I did that then had snuggles until 7.30 when I felt I could face the day! Hubby is on night shifts so I'm flying solo!

On the plus side his bum is much better today and he's only pooped twice! Which is an actual record :woohoo:

We're staying with my parents tonight so I'm hoping he doesn't pull another 6am poop but we'll see!

Oh and the clocks go forward tonight and I still haven't quite worked out how to play tomorrow yet! Noelle, if I just get up with him when he wakes at 6.30 (as by the new clock that will be 7.30) and then just do everything at the normal time by the new clock, do you think he'll go to bed at 7.30 as usual even though technically that's an hour early by the old clock? I'm only asking as I know that's what you did with Charlotte :)


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## Boo44

Edit - by 'snuggling' until 7.30 I technically mean me trying to doze whilst Jack pulled my hair and stuck his fingers in my mouth/nose (just in case I made it sound a more peaceful picture than it actually was) lol


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## VikkiD

Do you think this clock change will mean my lo will sleep till 6:30 everyday instead of 5:30 that would be great :) lol


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## Shadowy Lady

I've been trying to nap today but even those are messed up with Sofia now. She napped for 1.5h at around 9:30 am but then only 30 mins after that at 1:30 pm.

For those of you guys who've experienced these MOTN WW/milestone stuff, what should I do tonight if she does it again? DH thinks us going to her so many times might have made it worse (we went in every 20 mins). I know I won't be attempting bottle/boob again as she wasn't interested in either. But should I just wait till she goes back to sleep even if she screams?


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## Noelle610

Sunnie, thanks for the suggestion! My mom mentioned the same about switching up the meds, so I'm going to do that.

Boo, I think that plan will work just fine. Charlotte seemed to adjust really fast. 

Shadowy Lady, was she upset when she woke or just wanting to play? If she's not upset, I absolutely wouldn't go in there. I agree with your DH that your presence was probably stimulating. That said, if she's hysterical that's another story (and I'd question if she had an ear infection).


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## Shadowy Lady

Noelle - she wasn't upset at first but after an hour or so she got upset. It was clear she wanted to sleep but was moving around too much. Would she be calm and smiley when she saw me if she had an ear infection? Coz she was fine even smiling everytime I went to her and after 10 mins or so of my leaving she would start screaming :/

Of course her doctor's office is closed coz this is Easter weekend.


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## Noelle610

Shadowy Lady said:


> Noelle - she wasn't upset at first but after an hour or so she got upset. It was clear she wanted to sleep but was moving around too much. Would she be calm and smiley when she saw me if she had an ear infection? Coz she was fine even smiling everytime I went to her and after 10 mins or so of my leaving she would start screaming :/
> 
> Of course her doctor's office is closed coz this is Easter weekend.

This really sounds like a wonder week thing. I think she probably wanted to sleep, but couldn't because her little brain was on fire. I'm thinking WW37. I doubt it's an ear infection if she's so happy to see you. 

I'm honestly not really sure what to advise you in your situation. You could certainly let her CIO - I don't think it would hurt, but at the same time I'm not sure how much it would help if this is developmental. I almost wonder if you might do some "sleep reminders" by recreating some of her bedtime routine. You could even try giving her a bath (if you do that), rocking a bit, nursing and reading a story. Not that you want to do any of this in the middle of the night, but I promise it will pass! We've never had two of those nights in a row.


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## Shadowy Lady

Thank u so much Noelle! Hope this was the worst of it too! I shall report tomorrow


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## NotNic

I realised that I was making F's wake ups worse by going in too soon Shadowy. I wasn't giving him a chance to settle and by going in too soon I gave him a reason to start waking. Now I go in after a few minutes or when the cry pitch changes. I lay him back down, say nothing and walk back out again. Gradually they get fewer.

Our milk strike is over! 5 days felt very long and he was starting to fight drinking things full stop. We also seem to be definitely making one daily nap more than a habit. He woke at 5.30am, played for 30mins and was up for the day. He then went for a nap and I had to wake him after 3 and a half hours as we needed to go out. When I woke him, rather than cry or try to climb out of the cot he sat down and played. He was still overtired by the end of the day but he didnt nap again. So we've done 4.5hrs amand 6.5hrs pm I'll try to push that a little longer next week.


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## NotNic

Man, who told Finlay the clocks were changing? He wakes at 5.55am actual time! :dohh: OH now has Finlay's bug so I was up throughout the night and losing an hour as well equals one very tired mama. On the upside apart from one wake up at 10pm he slept through. I'm just too tired to appreciate it


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## VikkiD

Another better night lo was in bed 6:45 he woke up crying at 10.30went into him to find his mobile that was on the floor had managed to come on and wake him up. He soon settled after it. Woke again at 2:50 I fed him an then up for the day at 6:50. I think maybe I should have waited a bit longer before I fed him last night as this morning he hasn't drank much of his bottle


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## polaris

Notnic - that is exactly what DS used to do. I always hoped that I would be able to fool him into sleeping until 6.30 instead of 5.30 by keeping the rest of his schedule the same (old time) but it never worked, he always adjusted incredibly quickly to waking up at 5.30 a.m. new time. :dohh:


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## Boo44

Well jack woke at his (sadly now) usual time of 6.15, however the clock read 7.15 so that made me feel better, lol!

He was surprised by being up and fed in record time whereas usually he'd be left to chat and play. So hopefully we're just back on his usual schedule xx


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## izzlesnizzle

LO went through til 6.30 but the clock read 7.30am which was so nice! 

I was so annoyed that the phone in the living room kept beeping at 3am because the battery was low. Ughhh! I was so angry I had to get up and switch it off and couldn't do it in the dark. I just wanted to throw it on the floor and stamp on it! Went back to bed and half an hour later LO started crying. Thankfully she re settled herself and I didn't need to go to her but I woke at 6am, looked at the monitor and she was still fast asleep. She started crying at 6.30 and when I looked all her toys were strewn all over the cot but its an improvement on the 5am thing. I was just too done in last night to contemplate setting the alarm for 4.30. 

I know its so common for the 5am wake up but I cant bear the thought of it until shes 15 mths and drops to one nap like Polaris says! But at least there is light at the end of the tunnel......until the next baby comes and we do all of this all over again!

Shadowy- I have been reading your posts on the poopy nappies at all hours- we have had so much of this. Why cant they turn their bowels off at night? Its a highly unsociable thing to be doing at 3am lol!


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## Noelle610

Wohoo for late wake ups! Charlotte had a late nap yesterday and went to bed at 7:30pm, so I'm hoping she'll "sleep in" a bit too. I'm up, but I like the alone time. On that note, who would have thought when they were 16 that 7:30am would have been "sleeping in"?!

Charlotte's doing pretty well. Since she's been feeling better, she's still STTN but a bit more noisy. It wakes me and I just wish she was quiet! I'm probably asking too much.


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## Shadowy Lady

We had a better night but no sttn...she woke up at 3 am and we waited about 20mins then turned on her monitor (which we don't really use anymore ). She was on top of her crib sorta stuck :( so DH went and moved her and she fell asleep within 10 mins till 7 am. She had gone to bed at 6 pm.

Hoping as she discovers she should move around during the day we get our sttn baby back lol!

Oh happy Easter everyone :)


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## izzlesnizzle

I don't know if its a coincidence but a few changes have made for a better wake up time the last 2 mornings.

It really does make a difference what time I put her down for her afternoon nap. I have found 1pm and we get the early wake ups (too long a stretch until bedtime= over tired), if I leave her until 1.30pm then it seems to be better. Ive capped her naps too, 1 hr 15 in the morning and 1 hr in the afternoon. This seems to have helped and if she goes down just after 7 rather than before 7 then this seems to be better too. 

We've had a few issues at bedtime due to her getting up as soon as I leave the room and standing against the bars in her cot. Ive had to go back quite a few times to lie her down so she hasn't been actually going to sleep until about 7.10pm as opposed to 6.50 as it always was before.

I have also put some toys in her cot so when she wakes up at 6.30 shes been playing until 7 which was so nice this morning.

Or perhaps its nothing ive done and shes just through whatever difficult phase it was she was going through and is sleeping better, who knows!!!


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## Boo44

I think I'm going in too quickly on a morning! When he was tiny a quick dummy at 6.30 got us until 7.30 easily. Since he's been mr personality, often the dummy doesn't get us any longer and he's awake. But I've still been running in just in case. Mostly he gives me a huge smile, then after I've gone just plays and fills his nappy

The 6 am wake up calls are killing me as I'm not able to get back to sleep even if he goes quiet for a while... It's really getting to me! Why 6am every morning??????

This morning I heard him at 5.55am and I thought no bloody way so I left him. All went silent until 6.40 then a couple of cries. Then silent again and he slept until 7.40! Not sure if this is the clock change or something but I'll try to leave him more often and hope it sticks!

Oh and no poo when I went to get him which may also be why he went back to sleep. But unfortunately he's bound to poo most other mornings lol


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## Noelle610

I think you girls are jinxing me! Charlotte seems to be waking earlier and earlier. That coupled with playing at bedtime makes me worry she's not getting enough sleep! I'd say she clocked 10 hours last night. Put down at 7, played until 8, woke at 6am.


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## Shadowy Lady

lol, babies in this thread talk to each other. 

Our night was better than the night before. Down at 6:45 pm and asleep till 5:00 am. Then she had flipped around and moved and gotten stuck again :/ I went and moved her back and she went to sleep till around 7:30 am. She usually wakes up at 6:30 am when she sttn though.


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## kitabird

Does anyone else have a LO who refuses to go to bed at a reasonable time? I try to put him to bed from about 8pm but he never settles until at least 10pm, sometimes 11. We have the same routine every night, so he knows it's night time, but if he falls asleep around 8 or 9 he always wakes after a few minutes. Then I have to start all over again with feeding and rocking. OH and I never get any time together :(


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## Noelle610

kitabird said:


> Does anyone else have a LO who refuses to go to bed at a reasonable time? I try to put him to bed from about 8pm but he never settles until at least 10pm, sometimes 11. We have the same routine every night, so he knows it's night time, but if he falls asleep around 8 or 9 he always wakes after a few minutes. Then I have to start all over again with feeding and rocking. OH and I never get any time together :(

What time does he wake from his last nap? 

Fighting sleep is usually an indication that baby is overtired. He may need an earlier bedtime :flower:


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## kitabird

sorry, I've posted this in the wrong place!


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## kitabird

Noelle610 said:


> kitabird said:
> 
> 
> Does anyone else have a LO who refuses to go to bed at a reasonable time? I try to put him to bed from about 8pm but he never settles until at least 10pm, sometimes 11. We have the same routine every night, so he knows it's night time, but if he falls asleep around 8 or 9 he always wakes after a few minutes. Then I have to start all over again with feeding and rocking. OH and I never get any time together :(
> 
> What time does he wake from his last nap?
> 
> Fighting sleep is usually an indication that baby is overtired. He may need an earlier bedtime :flower:Click to expand...

He will only cat nap during the day, usually has 3 or 4 20 minute naps. I think he just hates sleep!


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## Noelle610

No worries! We're happy to have you :)


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## Noelle610

kitabird said:


> Noelle610 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> kitabird said:
> 
> 
> Does anyone else have a LO who refuses to go to bed at a reasonable time? I try to put him to bed from about 8pm but he never settles until at least 10pm, sometimes 11. We have the same routine every night, so he knows it's night time, but if he falls asleep around 8 or 9 he always wakes after a few minutes. Then I have to start all over again with feeding and rocking. OH and I never get any time together :(
> 
> What time does he wake from his last nap?
> 
> Fighting sleep is usually an indication that baby is overtired. He may need an earlier bedtime :flower:Click to expand...
> 
> He will only cat nap during the day, usually has 3 or 4 20 minute naps. I think he just hates sleep!Click to expand...

Oh I just realized he's a little one! At his age I might try putting him down every 90 minutes or so to ensure he's not overtired. The catnaps are somewhat normal at this age, so I know it's going to feel like you're putting him down for a nap all day long. But it is a phase that passes quickly :) I'd do bedtime no more than 2 hours after he wakes from his last nap - it should be between 6pm and 8pm ideally.

Hope this helps!


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## VikkiD

Daniel went bed at 7:15 last night usual wake up of 1am had a 7oz bottle put him back down but he wouldn't go sleep think his teeth are playing up again so gave him a small dose of calpol and he settled after that around 2:30 and awake again at 6am. Thing is this morning he only took 3oz of his morning bottle which makes me think he doesn't need the 1am feed so would you start cutting the oz down?


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## izzlesnizzle

I would offer less ozs and see what happens. Or to wean off completely another way you could try this. I didn't have to do it in the end but this is what I was going to do:

Night 1-3= 4oz milk, 2oz water
Night 3-6= 3oz milk, 3 oz water
Night 6-9= 2 oz milk, 4oz water
Night 9-12= 1 oz milk, 5oz water


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## mrsbeano

VikkiD said:


> Daniel went bed at 7:15 last night usual wake up of 1am had a 7oz bottle put him back down but he wouldn't go sleep think his teeth are playing up again so gave him a small dose of calpol and he settled after that around 2:30 and awake again at 6am. Thing is this morning he only took 3oz of his morning bottle which makes me think he doesn't need the 1am feed so would you start cutting the oz down?

Hi Vikki

I night weaned Quinn off his bottle as he wasn't dropping it on his own and solids are very well established. I just reduced the oz and then by the time it got down to 2oz he stopped waking for it. You can either water it down so it doesn't have the calories or just cut the oz. I also tried offering water first and if he didn't go too crazy I'd leave him for 10 minutes or so to see if he went over.


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## polaris

Any UK ladies struggling a bit with the clock change?

I felt like I had just got Clara into a nice routine with naps/bedtimes/etc. and then the clocks changed and confused both of us. She seems to have shifted her whole schedule by half an hour rather than an hour so now she's wanting to nap at different times than before. Yesterday I think I put her down too early for her second nap and she took ages going to sleep and then only slept for 20 minutes (I'm thinking undertired) but then she was seriously overtired by bedtime because she'd only had a twenty minute nap and although she went to sleep immediately she woke up screaming two hours later which seems to be what she does when she's over-tired. I'm feeling a bit sorry for myself because it was my birthday and myself and OH had just settled down with a nice glass of wine and a cuddle and then Clara woke up and it ruined the mood!

I wish I could just get her sleep sorted out, she's sleeping a million times better than before we did CC but I had really hoped that she would at least be reliably sleeping for a solid block in the early evening by now!


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## Noelle610

Polaris, I'd just wake her when she used to get up and proceed as normal.


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## Shadowy Lady

Polaris - sorry to hear Clara's sleep messed up with your birthday celebration. I wish these babies could just read our minds!!

ughhh we're still having wake up calls for no apparent reasons. Sat and Sun nights were not bad and she only took 20 mins or so to settle back and she didn't wake till 5 am for that. 

But last night she woke up at 3:30 am and would not go back to sleep till 5 am!!! I did go in once and moved her back to the middle of the bed as she keeps moving around the crib. she seems like she wants to sleep as she has this sleepy whine but just won't settle. She's fine during the day and her naps are still good. 

I was hoping this developmental stuff would pass soon but last night was night 5 of more or less the same thing :( I'm so exhausted and the cold weather doesn't but making my mood worse...


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## Noelle610

Shadowy Lady said:


> Polaris - sorry to hear Clara's sleep messed up with your birthday celebration. I wish these babies could just read our minds!!
> 
> ughhh we're still having wake up calls for no apparent reasons. Sat and Sun nights were not bad and she only took 20 mins or so to settle back and she didn't wake till 5 am for that.
> 
> But last night she woke up at 3:30 am and would not go back to sleep till 5 am!!! I did go in once and moved her back to the middle of the bed as she keeps moving around the crib. she seems like she wants to sleep as she has this sleepy whine but just won't settle. She's fine during the day and her naps are still good.
> 
> I was hoping this developmental stuff would pass soon but last night was night 5 of more or less the same thing :( I'm so exhausted and the cold weather doesn't but making my mood worse...

Aww :hugs: mama! That sucks! I really hope it passes quickly for you.

PS - checked out your blog on the "mummy bloggers" thread. You are STUNNING! Can you do my makeup, please?


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## Shadowy Lady

Noelle - awww you're too sweet:hugs: if you're ever up here let me know and I shall beat your face (makeup slang for doing your makeup:haha:)

I'm wondering if a sleep doula would be of help for us. But I don't know in what way. It's not like she has any bad sleep habits or even wants to eat at night:nope: I'm so confused....


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## Noelle610

Shadowy Lady said:


> Noelle - awww you're too sweet:hugs: if you're ever up here let me know and I shall beat your face (makeup slang for doing your makeup:haha:)
> 
> I'm wondering if a sleep doula would be of help for us. But I don't know in what way. It's not like she has any bad sleep habits or even wants to eat at night:nope: I'm so confused....

Thanks hun!

I contacted a sleep consultant when Charlotte was sleeping poorly. Most of them will give you a free consultation over phone/email before you purchase their services. It can't hurt to reach out. I didn't end up hiring her, but she gave me some great tips.


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## Noelle610

Saw this article today and thought of you girls!

"4 Tips When Your Baby Won't Sleep Like Other Babies"

https://www.babysleepsite.com/sleep-training/baby-wont-sleep-like-other-babies-4-tips/


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## Sunnie1984

Hi Ladies, 

Socity - Sorry Hadley still isn't sleeping well - where did you get to on the CIO/CC in the end? Sorry my brain is a bit fuzzy at the moment and I can't remember what you decided. 

Boo44 - Hope Jack's night poops have stopped for good now. Ours only went on for a couple of days and have settled down. Hope the clocks didn't throw Jack off too much. 

I leave Seren when she stirs, for as long as humanly possible. Unless she cries, I refuse to accept it's morning until 6:30am, or later.

Shadowy - I think if she screams then going in probably is the right thing to do. She may be hitting the aftermath of the separation anxiety? You'll soon know if it's helping or making it worse. If you feel it's making it worse, maybe then let her settle herself. 

Does she scream for long, or just cry out and try to settle. Seren often cries out in her sleep and then settles, and I don't go in for those. If it is just the odd scream, then leave her to it. :flower:

Just read Noelle's response, sounds like a good plan. I often do our nap routine over when she wakes early, to try to get her back to sleep, occasionally it works :haha:

Seren is going through the same crashing round her cot and getting stuck, I was hoping it would have stopped by now! 

Noelle - How did the alternating of pain meds go? I hope Charlotte quiets down soon :haha:

Notnic - Glad the milk strike is over. Must be a relief :thumbup: I hope the nap transition goes smoothly next week, I think you'll have it sorted when you get her awake times a bit more even. 

Vikkid - Sounds like a lot of progress. I agree it sounds like he doesn't really need that feed. I'd go with adding extra ounces of water to the milk, so he takes the same liquid but less calories, so he should shift his eating to day times. 

Izzles - Sorry you had a fight with the phone! I hate it when that happens, it's usually my washing machine which sings when it is finished - usually at 4am. I'm glad you seem to be getting a slightly later wake up. 

Kitabird - :hugs: I think Noelle has covered all the advice I had! :haha:

Polaris - Sorry you are struggling. I don't have any useful advice here either so :hugs:


As for me....

Nap transitions are hard work! We're on two naps a day now, but it's tough trying to schedule them properly. 

We are now doing 3 hours in the morning, which was getting an hour and a bit, but this morning only yielded 40 minutes. 

This afternoon she did 3 hours and 40 minutes before her second nap, which gave 1 hour 10 minutes. She didn't seem to be tired earlier. 

So she had a long time before bed, at least 3.5 hours if not more. I'm putting her to bed earlier, but then have to dream feed an hour later because she was too tired to finish her bottle. 

We're getting several short wake ups, usually either needs to be repositioned or she resettles. I think they could be a little overtired.

I'm not sure where to go with the naps. She definitely needs shorter time before bed, but I'm not sure whether to extend the morning awake time or the afternoon awake time. 

Can't complain really, but it just baffles me! Plus Seren looks like she hasn't slept for a month! :haha:


----------



## Noelle610

Sunnie, those short wakings between sleep cycles are definitely an indication of being overtired. Happens here too when she's up for too long between the last nap and bedtime - it was over 5 hours yesterday!

Charlotte is doing so much better, thanks for asking! Her two fangs popped through!


----------



## Sunnie1984

Noelle610 said:


> Sunnie, those short wakings between sleep cycles are definitely an indication of being overtired. Happens here too when she's up for too long between the last nap and bedtime - it was over 5 hours yesterday!
> 
> Charlotte is doing so much better, thanks for asking! Her two fangs popped through!


Gah, I thought so. Do you think I should extend the morning awake time or the middle awake time? 

We're getting early wake ups too, which is frustrating! 

Glad Charlotte is feeling better, I'm dreading teething, we haven't had any teeth yet!


----------



## Noelle610

I know I've posted this a million times, but this chart is seriously invaluable!

https://docs.google.com/document/d/11GHo4keUb2TVJUlSL1kD6HQcEgaNFBmzoQoOzcpcyas/edit?hl=en&authkey=CPXE1bsO&pli=1#

It has suggestions on wake times in between naps/bedtime for two naps based on age. The idea is to gradually increase the wake times to prevent baby from becoming overtired. I'd do the wake times suggested for 7/8 month olds just transitioning to 2 naps for a week and then move on to the 8 month old ones. You may have an early bedtime while he's getting used to the new wake times and lengthening his naps (which will happen eventually!).


----------



## Shadowy Lady

Sunnie - naps are so random for us too! Sometimes she goes 3 hours between naps sometimes she barely makes it to 2, lol! But she does still nap in average 3-4 hours per day....and eeeek so Seren is doing the crawl around the crib too?? maaaan when will the two of them stop doing this at night?

Noelle - funny I was reading the exact same article that you had posted through my FB when I saw it posted here too, lol! We probably "like" some of the same pages on FB :D


----------



## Noelle610

Too funny! Though it doesn't suprise me, of course we both love that site!


----------



## VikkiD

Lo as napped alot better today and as just gone sleep. I will offer 5oz tonight an gradually lower it as the time goes on.


----------



## Noelle610

Fingers crossed you have a good night Vikki!


----------



## izzlesnizzle

Sunnie1984 said:


> Hi Ladies,
> 
> Socity - Sorry Hadley still isn't sleeping well - where did you get to on the CIO/CC in the end? Sorry my brain is a bit fuzzy at the moment and I can't remember what you decided.
> 
> Boo44 - Hope Jack's night poops have stopped for good now. Ours only went on for a couple of days and have settled down. Hope the clocks didn't throw Jack off too much.
> 
> I leave Seren when she stirs, for as long as humanly possible. Unless she cries, I refuse to accept it's morning until 6:30am, or later.
> 
> Shadowy - I think if she screams then going in probably is the right thing to do. She may be hitting the aftermath of the separation anxiety? You'll soon know if it's helping or making it worse. If you feel it's making it worse, maybe then let her settle herself.
> 
> Does she scream for long, or just cry out and try to settle. Seren often cries out in her sleep and then settles, and I don't go in for those. If it is just the odd scream, then leave her to it. :flower:
> 
> Just read Noelle's response, sounds like a good plan. I often do our nap routine over when she wakes early, to try to get her back to sleep, occasionally it works :haha:
> 
> Seren is going through the same crashing round her cot and getting stuck, I was hoping it would have stopped by now!
> 
> Noelle - How did the alternating of pain meds go? I hope Charlotte quiets down soon :haha:
> 
> Notnic - Glad the milk strike is over. Must be a relief :thumbup: I hope the nap transition goes smoothly next week, I think you'll have it sorted when you get her awake times a bit more even.
> 
> Vikkid - Sounds like a lot of progress. I agree it sounds like he doesn't really need that feed. I'd go with adding extra ounces of water to the milk, so he takes the same liquid but less calories, so he should shift his eating to day times.
> 
> Izzles - Sorry you had a fight with the phone! I hate it when that happens, it's usually my washing machine which sings when it is finished - usually at 4am. I'm glad you seem to be getting a slightly later wake up.
> 
> Kitabird - :hugs: I think Noelle has covered all the advice I had! :haha:
> 
> Polaris - Sorry you are struggling. I don't have any useful advice here either so :hugs:
> 
> 
> As for me....
> 
> Nap transitions are hard work! We're on two naps a day now, but it's tough trying to schedule them properly.
> 
> We are now doing 3 hours in the morning, which was getting an hour and a bit, but this morning only yielded 40 minutes.
> 
> This afternoon she did 3 hours and 40 minutes before her second nap, which gave 1 hour 10 minutes. She didn't seem to be tired earlier.
> 
> So she had a long time before bed, at least 3.5 hours if not more. I'm putting her to bed earlier, but then have to dream feed an hour later because she was too tired to finish her bottle.
> 
> We're getting several short wake ups, usually either needs to be repositioned or she resettles. I think they could be a little overtired.
> 
> I'm not sure where to go with the naps. She definitely needs shorter time before bed, but I'm not sure whether to extend the morning awake time or the afternoon awake time.
> 
> Can't complain really, but it just baffles me! Plus Seren looks like she hasn't slept for a month! :haha:

Oh I remember the dropping nap transition being quite hard. We have got onto a fairly good schedule with it now but it took a while. I am working on the 2-3-4 basis and it seems to be going ok. The older she has got the longer she naps, rather than the cat naps she used to do. She can just about stretch out to 4/4.5 hrs before bed now. I had to push her afternoon nap back to 1.30pm to do this for a 7pm bedtime, so she wakes around 2.30 from her pm nap. If I put her down at 1pm she will wake at 2pm and its too long until bed so we get a melt down at bedtime. 

Have you tried the 2-3-4 schedule? Or some people say 3-3-3, works the same.


----------



## Boo44

Noelle which ones are the fangs? Have they come through before any others on the top?! I think jack's too front two are millimetres away from breaking the gum, he is really bothered by them! They've been taking a while...

Sunnie thanks for asking, I think pooping when he wakes is just his 'thing' that I'll have to accept! Luckily now (touch wood) we've found some nappies that don't leak and he just seems to not be bothered by it!!! Lovely

Hope you have some luck with naps soon. We had successfully transitioned to 2 long naps fr ages. This wkend he's been all over and has had 3 little naps some days! And some days his wake time before bed has been up to 5 hrs! But typically, since his routine has been a little altered by the holiday wkend we've had 2 later mornings. So I'm trying to relax a bit haha


----------



## Noelle610

Boo44 said:


> Noelle which ones are the fangs? Have they come through before any others on the top?! I think jack's too front two are millimetres away from breaking the gum, he is really bothered by them! They've been taking a while...

Looks like this:

https://jllongfamily.blogspot.com/2009/05/mothers-day.html

(fifth picture down... and I had to see way too many "Twilight" pictures in my google search to find this :haha:)

And yes, they came through before the top ones! Apparently it's rare but it happens. 

The teething does seem to take forever.


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## socitycourty

i chickened on the CIO....I started out doing CC one night which seemed to make her more mad. then finally had an anxiety attack, caved in, picked her up and she fell asleep immediately....next night tried CIO....I was sweating and shaking from listening to her cry (and it was only like 10 minutes)

I just don't know what to do :(


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## NotNic

Hi everyone. After a hectic few days, we had a bit of a nap breakthrough. Today he fell asleep briefly in the car at 10.30 for literally 5 mins but wouldn't sleep after that in the morning. At 12.15 he then slept for 3 hrs. Yay! It could be a fluke though as he fought us at bedtime last night sleeping 9.30pm - 7am, so maybe the later wake up made the later nap possible. :shrug:


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## Noelle610

socitycourty said:


> i chickened on the CIO....I started out doing CC one night which seemed to make her more mad. then finally had an anxiety attack, caved in, picked her up and she fell asleep immediately....next night tried CIO....I was sweating and shaking from listening to her cry (and it was only like 10 minutes)
> 
> I just don't know what to do :(

Aww honey :hugs: 

I would take care of yourself right now. Once you're feeling better, you can try again. 

OR, you could go away and have your DH handle it. I know a few moms who have done this.


----------



## Noelle610

NotNic said:


> Hi everyone. After a hectic few days, we had a bit of a nap breakthrough. Today he fell asleep briefly in the car at 10.30 for literally 5 mins but wouldn't sleep after that in the morning. At 12.15 he then slept for 3 hrs. Yay! It could be a fluke though as he fought us at bedtime last night sleeping 9.30pm - 7am, so maybe the later wake up made the later nap possible. :shrug:

I think you may have found your answer!

Maybe you could do a short nap in the AM (wake him at the 45 minute mark or even 30 minutes) and then a longer afternoon nap. A 3 hour nap might be too long, but 2 hours might be just right.


----------



## polaris

Noelle610 said:


> NotNic said:
> 
> 
> Hi everyone. After a hectic few days, we had a bit of a nap breakthrough. Today he fell asleep briefly in the car at 10.30 for literally 5 mins but wouldn't sleep after that in the morning. At 12.15 he then slept for 3 hrs. Yay! It could be a fluke though as he fought us at bedtime last night sleeping 9.30pm - 7am, so maybe the later wake up made the later nap possible. :shrug:
> 
> I think you may have found your answer!
> 
> Maybe you could do a short nap in the AM (wake him at the 45 minute mark or even 30 minutes) and then a longer afternoon nap. A 3 hour nap might be too long, but 2 hours might be just right.Click to expand...

This is what I did with Thomas for months when he still needed two naps but it was difficult to fit them into the day. It was hard waking him after 45 minutes because he always wanted to sleep on for longer in the morning, but it worked in allowing him to take a decent length afternoon nap at a reasonable time and the day went so much more smoothly.


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## NotNic

I think it's definitely worth a try. Longer than an hour in the morning seems to convince him he's had enough but a power nap might do it. I've been frightened of waking him up from naps in case he doesn't sleep later on but I think it's worth the risk now. Strangely we are now back at the nap routine he had at the height of his colic. Awake 5-6am, fighting naps all morning and then asleep from 12.30 for 3 hrs!


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## seaweed eater

Hi all. It is time for me to join this thread. LO was never a great sleeper, but we were at 2 wakings per night and putting him down awake (after nursing) without drama, and I was happy with that. Now we are having some crazy nap transition (seems like he is trying to go straight from 4 to 2?!), plus we just tried moving from bassinet to crib and he absolutely hates it, plus vaccinations yesterday. Plus probably starting to learn object permanence! Result: a baby who will not sleep in his bed (even his old bassinet). Hopefully the effects of the vaccinations, at least, are temporary, but I just don't know what to do. I've been crying at every nap and bed time for the past two days. I just feel lost. All I can hear in my head is Dr. Sears and Dr. Weissbluth arguing over all the reasons why I have failed as a parent. I feel horribly guilty toward LO...I didn't want to use crying techniques and I feel like we may have to and like I have really let him down. :(


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## Noelle610

seaweed eater said:


> Hi all. It is time for me to join this thread. LO was never a great sleeper, but we were at 2 wakings per night and putting him down awake (after nursing) without drama, and I was happy with that. Now we are having some crazy nap transition (seems like he is trying to go straight from 4 to 2?!), plus we just tried moving from bassinet to crib and he absolutely hates it, plus vaccinations yesterday. Plus probably starting to learn object permanence! Result: a baby who will not sleep in his bed (even his old bassinet). Hopefully the effects of the vaccinations, at least, are temporary, but I just don't know what to do. I've been crying at every nap and bed time for the past two days. I just feel lost. All I can hear in my head is Dr. Sears and Dr. Weissbluth arguing over all the reasons why I have failed as a parent. I feel horribly guilty toward LO...I didn't want to use crying techniques and I feel like we may have to and like I have really let him down. :(

Oh gosh, :hugs: 6 months was the height of horrible sleeping for me. I felt like I was going insane! Definitely do what you need to to survive right now. You can re-evaluate the situation in a week, just to ensure he's not suffering side effects from the vaccines.

You HAVE not failed as a mom. You're tired. You're stressed. It's hard to funtion on such little sleep. Dr. Sears and Weissbluth are pretty extreme sides of the sleep coin. I don't want to give you more reading, but I would look into Jodi Mindell's "Sleeping Through the Night". It's a good middle-of-the-road approach.

Also, no cry methods do work. If you choose to go that route it just takes consistency and we'll support you!


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## Boo44

Ohhh the fangs are too cute!!


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## seaweed eater

Thanks, Noelle. I too feel it would be best to wait a few days. It is good to hear that from someone else. It is hard for me to know how much to push and challenge him at this point. I feel like I've read too much about sleep and completely lost my internal sense of what my own child can handle. I guess because I feel like maybe my indulgence is what has brought us to this point.


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## Noelle610

seaweed eater said:


> Thanks, Noelle. I too feel it would be best to wait a few days. It is good to hear that from someone else. It is hard for me to know how much to push and challenge him at this point. I feel like I've read too much about sleep and completely lost my internal sense of what my own child can handle. I guess because I feel like maybe my indulgence is what has brought us to this point.

Put down the sleep books and just enjoy your baby for a week. I got really obsessive about it for awhile and I was just going in circles. How do you think I came to obtain all of this sleep trivia? :haha:

Truthfully, though, please do not be too hard on yourself. Comforting and loving a young baby is not indulgence. Some babies are naturally "good" sleepers and others are a bit more prone to sleep associations and night wakings. There wouldn't be so many sleep books on the market if it wasn't a problem for so, so many parents!

What's a typical day like for your LO? Wake up time, naps and bedtime? I know Weissbluth is notorious as the kind of CIO/extinction, but I think the real takeaway from his book is getting baby on an age appropriate schedule so that they don't fight sleep. Easier said than done, I know!


----------



## seaweed eater

Thanks. We'll see what tonight brings. So far he is in bed asleep after just 2 tries, which is about a quarter as many as I was expecting, so that's really really good. But he has recently been waking up within about 10 minutes of going down, so we'll see if it sticks.

His typical day...he wakes up around 6. His nap schedule has been shifting a lot in the past week, so it's a bit hard for me to describe that at the moment. His first nap definitely starts around 9-9:30, or at least three hours after he woke up (he'll nap half an hour sooner in the car, but there's no other way he'll take that one earlier). Until about a week ago he would have three more naps, around 12, 2:30, and 5, and each would be about 30-35 minutes. Recently, he's started napping anywhere from 40 to 90 minutes, and he's down to three (the second one starts anywhere from 12 to 1:30, and the third anywhere from 3 to 5) and this weekend even seemed to want two -- we really struggled with the last one. In any case he usually seems to want about 2-2.5 hours of nap per day. If he's already had that much heading toward the last nap he will often skip the nap. Then bedtime routine around 7, asleep at 7:15-7:30. Feeds around 1 and 4. Repeat. So he's definitely on the lower end of sleep for his age, but he's always been that way. He is generally very cheerful and can play independently for a while and all that stuff so I don't think he's chronically sleep deprived.

Thanks for the advice to just enjoy him for a week :hugs: this is definitely not the first time I have hit the point where I have to decide to just take a few days off and forget about the sleep stuff for a while...I just hate obsessing about it. He's such a fun baby. And I really am all right with the routine we've had going (mostly...I do worry about the nursing-almost-to-sleep, and would I prefer to sleep through the night? of course). But then something throws it off and it's just so discouraging to feel like we're starting from scratch again.

Whew...he is still sleeping! :thumbup: I'm excited!! No tears from mama yet tonight (touch wood)!


----------



## gaiagirl

Awwww Seaweed I'm sorry you've had to join (but always happy to see you on BnB and not just FB)! 

I also got to the point of being overwhelmed with sleep advice books and info and really had to take a step back and reevaluate my whole perspective...

Bottom line: you are doing AMAZING and your concern only proves that. Definitely give it some time and reevaluate. Message me on FB if you want too, we can discuss more!

Hugs xoxoxo


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## seaweed eater

Thanks friend :hugs: How are you and F doing today?


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## gaiagirl

We have had a good week! I thought for sure with travel and overstimulation over Easter he would be crazy, but he was his chill little self and even slept 5/6 hour stretches! Woohoooo! Last night was back to his antics but ahhhh, I'm over being too stressed about it;)

Today we had a very busy day with naps on the road and so he's been fighting bedtime a bit but that's my own fault. 

Also - we ditched the swaddle! Just sleep sacks for 24 hours now and so far not disastrous!


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## seaweed eater

I'm so glad to hear that!! :happydance: You must be relieved about the swaddle!


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## seaweed eater

Whoops, double post. How is everyone else doing tonight? :wave:


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## VikkiD

Good night for us last night :) lo slept 7:45 till 6:45 I did hear a moan at 2am but I could tell it wasn't a hungry or painful one so I left him an within two mins he was asleep also a little shout at 6 but that was it. He did have two good naps yesterday the last one ended at 4pm so I think this really helped us.


----------



## Noelle610

seaweed eater said:


> Thanks. We'll see what tonight brings. So far he is in bed asleep after just 2 tries, which is about a quarter as many as I was expecting, so that's really really good. But he has recently been waking up within about 10 minutes of going down, so we'll see if it sticks.
> 
> His typical day...he wakes up around 6. His nap schedule has been shifting a lot in the past week, so it's a bit hard for me to describe that at the moment. His first nap definitely starts around 9-9:30, or at least three hours after he woke up (he'll nap half an hour sooner in the car, but there's no other way he'll take that one earlier). Until about a week ago he would have three more naps, around 12, 2:30, and 5, and each would be about 30-35 minutes. Recently, he's started napping anywhere from 40 to 90 minutes, and he's down to three (the second one starts anywhere from 12 to 1:30, and the third anywhere from 3 to 5) and this weekend even seemed to want two -- we really struggled with the last one. In any case he usually seems to want about 2-2.5 hours of nap per day. If he's already had that much heading toward the last nap he will often skip the nap. Then bedtime routine around 7, asleep at 7:15-7:30. Feeds around 1 and 4. Repeat. So he's definitely on the lower end of sleep for his age, but he's always been that way. He is generally very cheerful and can play independently for a while and all that stuff so I don't think he's chronically sleep deprived.
> 
> Thanks for the advice to just enjoy him for a week :hugs: this is definitely not the first time I have hit the point where I have to decide to just take a few days off and forget about the sleep stuff for a while...I just hate obsessing about it. He's such a fun baby. And I really am all right with the routine we've had going (mostly...I do worry about the nursing-almost-to-sleep, and would I prefer to sleep through the night? of course). But then something throws it off and it's just so discouraging to feel like we're starting from scratch again.
> 
> Whew...he is still sleeping! :thumbup: I'm excited!! No tears from mama yet tonight (touch wood)!

His daytime schedule sounds really good actualy :) Feeds around 1 and 4 are totally appropriate for the age. Honestly, what some of the sleep books won't admit is that some kids just aren't good sleepers and they have to grow out of that. I did a lot of the "right" things with my LO and she did start sleeping well in her own time, but sometimes the books just didn't help. I'm a big fan of "the books" so I'm not knocking them, but not all babies are textbook.

You may want to see if you can drop that third nap if he's fighting it. My daughter transitioned to 2 naps a bit earlier than the norm, at 6 months. If you want to do that, you can extend his wake time in the morning to 3 hours and then 3.5 hours between nap 1 and 2 and then 3 or 3.5 hours between the second nap and bedtime. You may find he needs an earlier bedtime for a few weeks while he adjusts to the longer wake times and naps lengthen.


----------



## aliss

So (and Noelle you'll laugh at this)

Last night, I only had TWO night wakings wtih Philippe (as I said recently, we're swaddle weaning cold turkey).

It was wonderful. Out cold at 6:45pm-10pm (a lovely evening to ourselves as toddler is in bed at 7pm too). 10pm, a feed. Ok. 3am feed, ok.

Annnnnnd then midnight, someone (aka Alexandre) decides to have a nightmare and whine/cry on & off for 2 hours.

AUGHHHHHH. I feel like death!!!! Finally, a fantastic unswaddled night spoiled by a 3 year old!!!!

How very typical.


----------



## Noelle610

aliss said:


> So (and Noelle you'll laugh at this)
> 
> Last night, I only had TWO night wakings wtih Philippe (as I said recently, we're swaddle weaning cold turkey).
> 
> It was wonderful. Out cold at 6:45pm-10pm (a lovely evening to ourselves as toddler is in bed at 7pm too). 10pm, a feed. Ok. 3am feed, ok.
> 
> Annnnnnd then midnight, someone (aka Alexandre) decides to have a nightmare and whine/cry on & off for 2 hours.
> 
> AUGHHHHHH. I feel like death!!!! Finally, a fantastic unswaddled night spoiled by a 3 year old!!!!
> 
> How very typical.

Ugh!!! Reminds me of a night that Charlotte slept really well but my dog was up all night puking. Not that Alex is like a dog, but you get my point :haha:


----------



## aliss

Noelle610 said:


> aliss said:
> 
> 
> So (and Noelle you'll laugh at this)
> 
> Last night, I only had TWO night wakings wtih Philippe (as I said recently, we're swaddle weaning cold turkey).
> 
> It was wonderful. Out cold at 6:45pm-10pm (a lovely evening to ourselves as toddler is in bed at 7pm too). 10pm, a feed. Ok. 3am feed, ok.
> 
> Annnnnnd then midnight, someone (aka Alexandre) decides to have a nightmare and whine/cry on & off for 2 hours.
> 
> AUGHHHHHH. I feel like death!!!! Finally, a fantastic unswaddled night spoiled by a 3 year old!!!!
> 
> How very typical.
> 
> Ugh!!! Reminds me of a night that Charlotte slept really well but my dog was up all night puking. Not that Alex is like a dog, but you get my point :haha:Click to expand...

Eh, Alex is worse. At least the dog I left to "CIO" in the crate. :dohh: He was only 8 weeks. I feel bad now :haha:


----------



## Noelle610

aliss said:


> Noelle610 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> aliss said:
> 
> 
> So (and Noelle you'll laugh at this)
> 
> Last night, I only had TWO night wakings wtih Philippe (as I said recently, we're swaddle weaning cold turkey).
> 
> It was wonderful. Out cold at 6:45pm-10pm (a lovely evening to ourselves as toddler is in bed at 7pm too). 10pm, a feed. Ok. 3am feed, ok.
> 
> Annnnnnd then midnight, someone (aka Alexandre) decides to have a nightmare and whine/cry on & off for 2 hours.
> 
> AUGHHHHHH. I feel like death!!!! Finally, a fantastic unswaddled night spoiled by a 3 year old!!!!
> 
> How very typical.
> 
> Ugh!!! Reminds me of a night that Charlotte slept really well but my dog was up all night puking. Not that Alex is like a dog, but you get my point :haha:Click to expand...
> 
> Eh, Alex is worse. At least the dog I left to "CIO" in the crate. :dohh: He was only 8 weeks. I feel bad now :haha:Click to expand...

:rofl:


----------



## polaris

LOL, the first night that Clara slept reasonably well, Thomas was up all night getting sick! They must have a sleep radar or something, working as a team to ensure you don't get any!

Seaweed eater - I had to smile at the image of Sears and Weissbluth battling it out inside your head, this is how I feel most days too, that's what comes of reading too many baby books I think! I never had so many doubts with Thomas because I'd only read half the books! Also I just want to second what Noelle says about some babies just not sleeping very well regardless of what you do. DS was a dreadful sleeper as a newborn and as he got a bit older he was very sensitive to over-tiredness and any disruption to his schedule would totally throw his sleep pattern. However, once I worked around his needs, he actually slept pretty well. DD on the other hand is just way harder to figure out. She was actually a great sleeper as a newborn, then the four month sleep regression hit and she just never recovered. Her sleep just got worse and worse and worse. I really imagined that I was an expert on baby sleep schedules and getting them sleeping well after DS (who was hard work but manageable) but with DD I just couldn't figure out what I was doing wrong (still can't really). We ended up doing CC with her a couple of weeks ago which was traumatic to be honest. However it has really helped, she has gone from waking up every hour through the night, 20 minute naps, and never wanting to sleep in the cot, to happily self-settling in the cot, taking two decent length naps during the day, and sleeping for somewhat longer stretches at night. She's still waking up three or four times most nights though (after a couple of blissful nights of only one wake-up) but I can handle that as long as it doesn't get worse again and I definitely don't have the stomach for any more crying at the moment. I do think that I was partly to blame in that I used to drag her around to various activities with DS so she never really got proper naps. I thought it was OK because she didn't seem tired during the day and was always in fantastic form (she's incredibly laid-back except during the night). But I know think that she was chronically somewhat over-tired even though she didn't seem to be. With DS you could always tell when he was over-tired because his mood would be just appalling and he would usually just cry constantly and refuse to go to sleep. Whereas DD tends to get giggly and a bit hyper when over-tired but she doesn't cry or show any visible signs of being tired. Babies are just so confusing. But honestly, now that I have two I can honestly tell you that what works with one baby may not work with another, they truly are all different and have their own little quirks.


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## seaweed eater

Vikki that sounds great! :happydance:

Oh no Aliss :dohh: I hope you get another good night tonight from Philippe without the disruption from Alexandre!

Thanks, Noelle and Polaris. I'm glad to hear his schedule sounds good :thumbup: the nap stuff just feels a little crazy because not too long ago he was usually having FIVE naps. And of course I was fretting about the fact that he was still napping like a newborn when his peers were consolidating! :p I think three may still be right for now, at least during the week. He's in daycare in the afternoons so the schedule I described corresponds to one nap there and one starting in the car on the way either to or from (plus the morning one). It's hard to prevent him from falling asleep in the car if it's close to naptime, so for two he would need a solid nap at home AND a solid nap at daycare. I hope he moves to that soon, though, because waiting for him to finish his nap in the carseat is getting inconvenient now that his naps are longer :dohh:

I just always feel weird about thinking of him as a bad sleeper...he's not a "difficult" baby really; pretty average on that dimension. And he hasn't been super unpredictable or hard to figure out or anything like that. Just stubborn, I guess. I'm just amazed that so many babies seem to STTN just effortlessly...how?!

So, last night was pretty good for us! :happydance: 3 wakings and a minor MOTN party (at 4:30, oddly) but not too far from normal. AND he made up for the party by sleeping until 7! :yipee: So hopefully we are on track to get back to where we were. I think it helped to realize that there is basically no way around putting him down awake at this point...if I put him down asleep he just cries five minutes later when he stirs and wakes up, plus I've wasted several minutes waiting for him to be in a deep sleep before putting him down. So the only option is just to keep trying and trying to put him down awake. That's at least less frustrating to me somehow, maybe because each iteration is over faster. :haha:


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## Shadowy Lady

Seaweed eater - hi friend! So sorry you had to join us here...but there are some lovely and helpful ladies here. I drop by everyday even when Sofia sleeps through...I enjoy the girls company. I agree with Noelle, I think you need to take a break from sleep training. I've been doing that myself...just kinda waiting it out.

Aliss - eeeek! Sorry your night got spoiled. Stories like this are scaring me from having more than one kid lol!

Vikki - yay for a good night!

So our evening was slightly better but not great. She was asleep by 6:30 pm (put down and 6:15, played with her toy for a bit and then asleep). She slept till 3:45 exactly and then she woke up moaning. The thing is guys she doesn't even cry or scream anymore...just kinda moans. DH went and adjusted her back to the middle of the bed. She continued to moan for another 30 mins and then went to sleep. During that time we were looking at her in the monitor. It was obvious that she was very tired and wanted to sleep but something was bothering her. She was on her tummy just moaning until she went down.

She woke up in the morning at 7:20 am and was down for her first nap at 9:30 am. I'm still at loss of what's causing the night wakings. We've ruled out hunger as she refuses breast/bottle at that time and trying to feed only prolonged her going back to sleep. She is not pooping at night anymore either. This was night 5 I'll give it till this Friday and then I'll take her to the doc to rule out anything health related.


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## Noelle610

Shadowy Lady, something might be bothering her. I wonder if she's getting a tooth.


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## Shadowy Lady

Noelle - I tried to look but she won't let me :/ I remember checking 2 weeks ago when she was pooping in the middle of the night and couldn't see anything.


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## Noelle610

Charlotte will never let me look either :) It's actually worse before they pop through, so it's really hard to tell.


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## Boo44

What is an optimal time for a first nap if baby wakes around 6.30? Usually leave him in cot until at least 7 xx


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## Sunnie1984

Boo, jack is 9 months, so try three hours after waking and see how he goes. 

If you get short naps, extend by 10 mins every few days until you get a good nap. 

Hope that helps! 

X


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## AngelUK

Boo I usually try to have _at least_ 2 hours awake time after them getting up in the morning but not more than 3. So this is at around 9 or 9:30 depending on when they woke up. It usually is at around 6:20 but I leave them in their cots till about 6:40 usually. xx


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## Boo44

Thanks girls. I'm wondering if I've been pushing his first nap actually too late! He has it at either 10 or 10.30 and he's always awake at 6.30 really. Maybe I should bring it forward?


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## Boo44

PS noelle I saw the pic of you and Charlotte in a costume on the Uno thread - you are so pretty!


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## Noelle610

Aww Boo, thanks :blush:

I say 9am or 9:30am :)


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## seaweed eater

SL :wave: I'm sorry something seems to be bothering Sofia :( teething sounds plausible, but I think your plan to go to the doctor if it's still going on by Friday sounds prudent...

You ladies will appreciate this. I've been talking to DH about how I don't want to leave Munchkin to CIO. This morning after LO woke at 4:30 and I nursed him almost to sleep twice, he ultimately fell asleep after whining for about 40 seconds after I left the room. Then this morning DH said to me, "So it seems like leaving him to cry it out worked pretty well, actually!" :lol:


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## Noelle610

seaweed eater said:


> SL :wave: I'm sorry something seems to be bothering Sofia :( teething sounds plausible, but I think your plan to go to the doctor if it's still going on by Friday sounds prudent...
> 
> You ladies will appreciate this. I've been talking to DH about how I don't want to leave Munchkin to CIO. This morning after LO woke at 4:30 and I nursed him almost to sleep twice, he ultimately fell asleep after whining for about 40 seconds after I left the room. Then this morning DH said to me, "So it seems like leaving him to cry it out worked pretty well, actually!" :lol:

I don't consider that crying it out :) A sleep consultant I spoke with - who is pretty anti-CIO - told me it's best to always wait 5 or 10 minutes before responding to an older baby when they're making noise in their crib. Two reasons:

1 - Some babies need to "let off steam" before they fall asleep. By "helping" them, you're really just overstimulating them and making it harder for them to fall asleep.

2 - Babies often make noise when transitioning through sleep cycles. "Sleep cries" are common, especially if baby is overtired. By responding to a baby too quickly, you're actually disrupting their sleep and it can lead to fragmented sleep (not healthy) or habitual night waking (not fun).

Admittedly, I am not good at this. I usually rush right to Charlotte. But when I have followed this advice I've been pleasantly suprised to find she often is quiet just moments later.


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## Boo44

I've turned over a new leaf with this too even when I hear him at 6am I leave him - I've given up trying to get the dummy in etc. he's old enough to find his own dummy now. Sometimes he doesn't quieten down. But on the odd occasion I get up to another hour, so I'm willing to keep trying!'


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## seaweed eater

Yeah, I don't consider that CIO, either - just giving them a chance! That's why I thought it was funny. I try to count to 100 if he is just fussing and not crying. Which is not even 2 minutes, but I find that if I don't count, I'm not able to wait. But if he cries I go in right away.


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## polaris

I don't mind leaving Clara for ten or fifteen minutes if she's just doing her moany cry, she often has a moan when transitioning between sleep cycles but it's a completely different cry to when she's properly awake and upset. It's sort of annoying though because obviously it still wakes me up. She usually does go back to sleep in less than ten minutes if she's doing her moany cry, in fact I'm not convinced that she's properly awake at all when she's crying like that.


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## Noelle610

Why can't these bloody babies just sleep soundly??? :haha:


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## polaris

Noelle610 said:


> Why can't these bloody babies just sleep soundly??? :haha:

You said it Noelle!


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## Shadowy Lady

now you guys are making me think....when Sofia is moaning and I go to her and move her, maybe she's still asleep? And by going in there I'm waking her up? Hard to see in the monitor coz she's always facing away :/ The timing makes sense too - close to 4 am when their sleep is light!!


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## NotNic

I'm bad for point 2. What doesn't help is Finlay can be quite a light sleeper and will sit up and crawl when he's pretty much still asleep. It's so hard knowing when to leave them and when to go in. He certainly whimpers and cries in his sleep. I've taken to leaving the nightlight on his monitor on, so I can check from the doorway.

Seaweed - in my experience OHs tend to have a completely different pov about how nights and sleeping went. It so funny how you are both there and yet have different conclusions! The latest nugget of insight from my husband is that apparently 'Im having a lot more sleep than I realise(!)' I may now get longer bedtime hours but months of broken sleep really can add up. Also my working hours aren't like his. I'm on duty 6am-8pm and on call 8pm-6am every day! It's not like I get timeout usually, however this wkend I'm on a hen do. I'm a bit apprehensive about leaving him but its also nice to switch the mum practical brain off for a few days. 

Noelle did you get your wkend away?


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## seaweed eater

SL, if it's normal for her to be moaning at that time then it does seem possible that she's still asleep or would settle on her own...but the way you described it made it sound like it's unusual for her? :shrug: I think you can probably trust your gut on this one!

NotNic, totally, there have been several mornings when, after 4 or 5 wakings, DH has said something like "So, pretty good night last night, huh?" Maybe for HIM it was! :haha:

Curious about something: our doctor recommended sleep training sometime in the next month or two because it will be an especially good time. I know I've encountered a few reasons why that might be the case, but the one he gave was that when they can pull to stand it gets much harder to sleep train. For those with babies who can pull to stand, have you found that to be the case? I thought any physical milestone was likely to be equally disruptive...


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## bananaz

seaweed eater said:


> Curious about something: our doctor recommended sleep training sometime in the next month or two because it will be an especially good time. I know I've encountered a few reasons why that might be the case, but the one he gave was that when they can pull to stand it gets much harder to sleep train. For those with babies who can pull to stand, have you found that to be the case? I thought any physical milestone was likely to be equally disruptive...

By the time my LO started pulling herself up in her crib she'd already been doing it elsewhere for a while and she knew how to get herself down, so it didn't have a huge impact on her sleep :shrug:


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## polaris

Clara isn't pulling to stand yet but my understanding of the reasoning behind what your doctor said is that a baby who has never learned to put themselves to sleep doesn't know that they need to lie down to sleep. If they are already pulling to stand, then as soon as you put them in the cot they will tend to immediately pull themselves up. This obviously makes it harder for them to learn how to fall asleep as it's going to be much harder to fall asleep standing up. So you have a choice of leaving them to try and figure out that they need to lie down or going in and lying them down every time (they will usually get straight back up again). So I think it's specifically in relation to teaching self-settling that your doctor was referring to.


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## VikkiD

Another good night here Daniel went sleep at 8 heard a little moan around 12 an 4 and up at 6 just wish I could have slept last night


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## Noelle610

Yay Vikki!


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## Shadowy Lady

We had a better night too. She woke up around 5am but we let her be and she fell asleep or became quiet within 20 mins. She ended up sleeping till 8:40 am which is very late for her...

Vikki- Congrats on a great night! i'm with you....I wish I could sleep like Sofia....I was up at 3:30 am anticipating her waking up :(


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## Noelle610

Yawn, I'm tired today girls! Charlotte is cutting four teeth as confirmed by our pediatrician. Poor kid. She was up from 11pm to 1am last night. She kept falling asleep and waking shortly after.

I have a mom friend who is very competitive. I told her we had a rough night this morning (our girls our daycare buddies) and she said, "Oh, I don't even know what I would do if we had a rough night! My LO has been sleeping sooo well for the past two months". Why does everything have to be a competition! I was just looking for a little sympathy :haha: I always feel like a shitty person when I have these thoughts (because I hate judgement), but it's hard for me not to wish some crappy nights on her now!


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## polaris

Tell her that you don't mind the sleepless nights because the smartest kids are always the worst sleepers. Just kidding obviously! It does annoy me when everything is a competition, my SIL is a bit like that and to be honest I just avoid discussing the children at all with her (which is tricky because it's about the only thing we have in common!).


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## Noelle610

polaris said:


> Tell her that you don't mind the sleepless nights because the smartest kids are always the worst sleepers. Just kidding obviously! It does annoy me when everything is a competition, my SIL is a bit like that and to be honest I just avoid discussing the children at all with her (which is tricky because it's about the only thing we have in common!).

You might be kidding, but I'm totally telling her that :rofl:


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## gaiagirl

After being thoroughly sick of Facebook posts about 12 hour stretches a friend posted: Im so grateful that my baby loves spending time with me enough to wake up every hour last night!

Ha!


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## Noelle610

Do it! Who posts about how their baby is sleeping on facebook?! Get a life :rofl:


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## seaweed eater

Better night here too!! Some trouble in the early morning but then he slept until 7:15, which I think is probably a first...ever.

But then I went and let him fall off a table and hit his head :cry: poor boy! The doctor said he looks ok fortunately!

Noelle, clearly we don't have the same facebook friends...my news feed is full of people broadcasting to the world about their baby's sleep! :dohh:


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## Noelle610

Really?! That's nuts!!!

Glad you had a good night though, despite your bragging friends LOL


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## seaweed eater

Another question. What do you all think of waking up LO from an afternoon nap that's too late? I'm wondering if I should wake Munchkin when we get home if he falls asleep on the way back from daycare. I let him finish that nap naturally last night (so 5-5:30 or a bit later) and he was pretty full of beans at 7 PM bedtime. (On the other hand, if going to bed slightly later somehow magically resulted in the late wake up, that's not a bad outcome! :haha:)


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## bananaz

Haha, I've had FB friends bragging about their babies' sleep too. The "My 7-week-old FINALLY just STTN!! Can't believe I've survived this long lol" status update was probably the worst. Several weeks later she posted about her baby being up every hour and I couldn't help feeling happy about it. Then I gave her some advice and within a week her baby was back to sleeping through! Totally not fair, I wish my advice would work for my own kid :growlmad:


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## seaweed eater

I think more common than bragging about sleep is complaining about what to me is a really really good night...e.g. "My 4 month old woke up to feed at 2 AM! SO EXHAUSTED :("


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## bananaz

seaweed eater said:


> Another question. What do you all think of waking up LO from an afternoon nap that's too late? I'm wondering if I should wake Munchkin when we get home if he falls asleep on the way back from daycare. I let him finish that nap naturally last night (so 5-5:30 or a bit later) and he was pretty full of beans at 7 PM bedtime. (On the other hand, if going to bed slightly later somehow magically resulted in the late wake up, that's not a bad outcome! :haha:)

I used to be nervous about waking LO from naps but now I just do it. For me it's more about making sure I maintain her evening routine than it is about worrying that the nap will interfere with her sleep. I usually give her dinner at 6pm so that's when I'll wake her if necessary, and she goes to bed at 7:30pm. Thankfully late naps don't seem to affect her sleep at night, though she will be more wired at bedtime and take longer to fall asleep.


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## bananaz

seaweed eater said:


> I think more common than bragging about sleep is complaining about what to me is a really really good night...e.g. "My 4 month old woke up to feed at 2 AM! SO EXHAUSTED :("

Oh yeah that would drive me crazy! I haven't seen any of those on FB, thankfully. I'm sure I wouldn't be able to help myself and post a snotty reply :blush:


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## Noelle610

seaweed eater said:


> Another question. What do you all think of waking up LO from an afternoon nap that's too late? I'm wondering if I should wake Munchkin when we get home if he falls asleep on the way back from daycare. I let him finish that nap naturally last night (so 5-5:30 or a bit later) and he was pretty full of beans at 7 PM bedtime. (On the other hand, if going to bed slightly later somehow magically resulted in the late wake up, that's not a bad outcome! :haha:)

I'm all for it! I never let Charlotte sleep much past 4pm. I just open her door, turn off the white noise and start doing chores in her room so it's not startling.


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## bananaz

Noelle610 said:


> I'm all for it! I never let Charlotte sleep much past 4pm. I just open her door, turn off the white noise and start doing chores in her room so it's not startling.

Haha, Elsie's afternoon naps start at 4pm right now! Her awake times have lengthened to 4-4.5 hours but she's just not ready to drop that second nap yet, so we're in yet another weird transitional period.


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## Boo44

Well we had a good night last night I think I heard him at some point but not enough to really stir, then he slept until 7.25!! Amazing!! So strange as yesterday it was 6. I am not complaining at all. But I would like to understand why some days it's early and some not. Then again I have a feeling it's just babies like anyone else sleep different hours each day and I should cut him some slack :haha:

Don't you just feel though, that you're always searching for that one answer when it comes to babies and sleep! Like if only I knew why he did x/y/z then everything would be perfect!! Haha

Oh and the fb thing - we just this wkend had a post about a 12 week old sleeping 13hr nights and lying in until like 8am every day. I felt so jealous!!! I am often posting pictures of jack but I have never once in 9 months posted about his sleep. Mainly because I don't want to jinx it! Haha


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## Noelle610

bananaz said:


> Noelle610 said:
> 
> 
> I'm all for it! I never let Charlotte sleep much past 4pm. I just open her door, turn off the white noise and start doing chores in her room so it's not startling.
> 
> Haha, Elsie's afternoon naps start at 4pm right now! Her awake times have lengthened to 4-4.5 hours but she's just not ready to drop that second nap yet, so we're in yet another weird transitional period.Click to expand...

Crazy! How long does she sleep for?


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## Noelle610

Boo44 said:


> Don't you just feel though, that you're always searching for that one answer when it comes to babies and sleep! Like if only I knew why he did x/y/z then everything would be perfect!! Haha

YES


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## bananaz

Noelle610 said:


> Crazy! How long does she sleep for?

Lately it's been 1-1.5 hours, which is great for her. She's still been doing her 7-9 hour stretches at night so it doesn't seem to be doing any harm in that regard. I wish I could get her down for a nap earlier in the afternoon but there's just no way. If I wait until 4 or 4:30pm she usually goes down with minimal fuss :shrug:


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## Noelle610

If it works, go with it.


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## gaiagirl

Noelle610 said:


> Boo44 said:
> 
> 
> Don't you just feel though, that you're always searching for that one answer when it comes to babies and sleep! Like if only I knew why he did x/y/z then everything would be perfect!! Haha
> 
> YESClick to expand...

Totally this. I had to make myself stop obsessing about finding that exact perfect combo...

But then after we had two 5/6 hour stretches this weekend of course I was back to trying to replicate the exact conditions of those days...sigh.


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## bananaz

gaiagirl said:


> Totally this. I had to make myself stop obsessing about finding that exact perfect combo...
> 
> But then after we had two 5/6 hour stretches this weekend of course I was back to trying to replicate the exact conditions of those days...sigh.

Oh man, don't you hate that?! There have been multiple times where I've thought "OMG, she slept ____ hours after this person visited. How do I get them to visit every day?!" I think I'm going crazy :wacko:


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## charlie15

Aggggh can I join this thread? I have 5 month old, her sleep at night was fine, well as I would expect with wakings for a feed so fine. I co sleep with here in her room while my OH sleeps in our room with the cat. But the last month has taken it's toll on me, today I was at breaking point to be honest, in tears and I really felt like a bad mum who to be honest when S cried I felt like I just don't care anymore. Obviously I do, but I am just so exhausted! I can't say what it is that S does as I'm so tired I have no idea, there is no pattern and it's totally random. It's not to do with feeding, wake ups for that are fine, it's restlessness, dummy problems, wake up to have a party for 2 hours interspersed with STTN, but I obviously don't myself as I'm too busy checking her breathing! I feel at the end of my tether and look like crap, and all the while OH looks as fresh as a daisy, growl growl! Not fair! Tonight he is going to sleep with her while I hopefully crash out in our room and he will come and get me if she does wake for a feed. I just hope the cat lets me sleep or she may just be thrown out of the window!

I don't know I need some advice but also need to rant. I really feel like the dummy needs to go, but I need to be in a better state mentally to take that on and also OH needs to be free to help with that. I am also thinking maybe we need to get her into her cot, but the dummy first! It also doesn't help that she does not nap at all, occasionally in her buggy, never in the sling, she's very alert and into everything, so as much as I love baby wearing it's more to occupy her than settle her. 

Sorry I have gone on, but feel a litte stir crazy, if you have got this far, thankyou for reading, all tips welcome :)


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## bananaz

charlie15 said:


> Aggggh can I join this thread? I have 5 month old, her sleep at night was fine, well as I would expect with wakings for a feed so fine. I co sleep with here in her room while my OH sleeps in our room with the cat. But the last month has taken it's toll on me, today I was at breaking point to be honest, in tears and I really felt like a bad mum who to be honest when S cried I felt like I just don't care anymore. Obviously I do, but I am just so exhausted! I can't say what it is that S does as I'm so tired I have no idea, there is no pattern and it's totally random. It's not to do with feeding, wake ups for that are fine, it's restlessness, dummy problems, wake up to have a party for 2 hours interspersed with STTN, but I obviously don't myself as I'm too busy checking her breathing! I feel at the end of my tether and look like crap, and all the while OH looks as fresh as a daisy, growl growl! Not fair! Tonight he is going to sleep with her while I hopefully crash out in our room and he will come and get me if she does wake for a feed. I just hope the cat lets me sleep or she may just be thrown out of the window!
> 
> I don't know I need some advice but also need to rant. I really feel like the dummy needs to go, but I need to be in a better state mentally to take that on and also OH needs to be free to help with that. I am also thinking maybe we need to get her into her cot, but the dummy first! It also doesn't help that she does not nap at all, occasionally in her buggy, never in the sling, she's very alert and into everything, so as much as I love baby wearing it's more to occupy her than settle her.
> 
> Sorry I have gone on, but feel a litte stir crazy, if you have got this far, thankyou for reading, all tips welcome :)


:hugs: That sounds really tough. I think trying to get her to nap regularly during the day is a good place to start, even if the naps are short. At 5 months old she should really only be awake for 2 hours at a time so if she's up all day she's probably really overtired and that's making the probem worse. Will she let you set her down once she's asleep? If not, maybe you could start by taking naps with her since you cosleep?

I will say that 5-6 months was a really difficult time for my LO's sleep, and I think that's the case for a lot of other babies too. A lot of things are going on developmentally and it can be really disruptive, especially for alert, clever babies like your girl.


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## Boo44

bananaz said:


> gaiagirl said:
> 
> 
> Totally this. I had to make myself stop obsessing about finding that exact perfect combo...
> 
> But then after we had two 5/6 hour stretches this weekend of course I was back to trying to replicate the exact conditions of those days...sigh.
> 
> Oh man, don't you hate that?! There have been multiple times where I've thought "OMG, she slept ____ hours after this person visited. How do I get them to visit every day?!" I think I'm going crazy :wacko:Click to expand...

LOL.

Only today I was asking my nephew to push Jack around in his walker as last time he did that he slept late the next morning!!


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## Noelle610

charlie15 said:


> Aggggh can I join this thread? I have 5 month old, her sleep at night was fine, well as I would expect with wakings for a feed so fine. I co sleep with here in her room while my OH sleeps in our room with the cat. But the last month has taken it's toll on me, today I was at breaking point to be honest, in tears and I really felt like a bad mum who to be honest when S cried I felt like I just don't care anymore. Obviously I do, but I am just so exhausted! I can't say what it is that S does as I'm so tired I have no idea, there is no pattern and it's totally random. It's not to do with feeding, wake ups for that are fine, it's restlessness, dummy problems, wake up to have a party for 2 hours interspersed with STTN, but I obviously don't myself as I'm too busy checking her breathing! I feel at the end of my tether and look like crap, and all the while OH looks as fresh as a daisy, growl growl! Not fair! Tonight he is going to sleep with her while I hopefully crash out in our room and he will come and get me if she does wake for a feed. I just hope the cat lets me sleep or she may just be thrown out of the window!
> 
> I don't know I need some advice but also need to rant. I really feel like the dummy needs to go, but I need to be in a better state mentally to take that on and also OH needs to be free to help with that. I am also thinking maybe we need to get her into her cot, but the dummy first! It also doesn't help that she does not nap at all, occasionally in her buggy, never in the sling, she's very alert and into everything, so as much as I love baby wearing it's more to occupy her than settle her.
> 
> Sorry I have gone on, but feel a litte stir crazy, if you have got this far, thankyou for reading, all tips welcome :)

:hugs: You can vent here any time!

If the dummy is a problem I think you sould get rid of it. 

5 months is a hard time for naps I think. How often do you put her down?


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## charlie15

Thank you Boo, taking naps with her is a great idea, I have tried it and sometimes it works other times she naps for 5-10 minutes then gets that second wind and I become her source of entertainment! I have had black out roller blinds fitted to help with the naps. This weekend we have OH's family coming to stay so when they have gone I will go to work on the naps. I think this is a tough time, she is developing so fast now it's scary so I'm sure that has something to do with this. I just feel that you reach a point of exhaustion that you function on such a basic level and I can't handle much more than that, maybe after a weekend with more sleep if we have some help will help me to take on more with regards to working on naps etc. maybe we'll do the naps before the dummy problem.


----------



## bananaz

Boo44 said:


> LOL.
> 
> Only today I was asking my nephew to push Jack around in his walker as last time he did that he slept late the next morning!!

:rofl: Yep, I would totally do that too.


----------



## charlie15

Noelle610 said:


> charlie15 said:
> 
> 
> Aggggh can I join this thread? I have 5 month old, her sleep at night was fine, well as I would expect with wakings for a feed so fine. I co sleep with here in her room while my OH sleeps in our room with the cat. But the last month has taken it's toll on me, today I was at breaking point to be honest, in tears and I really felt like a bad mum who to be honest when S cried I felt like I just don't care anymore. Obviously I do, but I am just so exhausted! I can't say what it is that S does as I'm so tired I have no idea, there is no pattern and it's totally random. It's not to do with feeding, wake ups for that are fine, it's restlessness, dummy problems, wake up to have a party for 2 hours interspersed with STTN, but I obviously don't myself as I'm too busy checking her breathing! I feel at the end of my tether and look like crap, and all the while OH looks as fresh as a daisy, growl growl! Not fair! Tonight he is going to sleep with her while I hopefully crash out in our room and he will come and get me if she does wake for a feed. I just hope the cat lets me sleep or she may just be thrown out of the window!
> 
> I don't know I need some advice but also need to rant. I really feel like the dummy needs to go, but I need to be in a better state mentally to take that on and also OH needs to be free to help with that. I am also thinking maybe we need to get her into her cot, but the dummy first! It also doesn't help that she does not nap at all, occasionally in her buggy, never in the sling, she's very alert and into everything, so as much as I love baby wearing it's more to occupy her than settle her.
> 
> Sorry I have gone on, but feel a litte stir crazy, if you have got this far, thankyou for reading, all tips welcome :)
> 
> :hugs: You can vent here any time!
> 
> If the dummy is a problem I think you sould get rid of it.
> 
> 5 months is a hard time for naps I think. How often do you put her down?Click to expand...

Thank you, well I put her down at least 3 times a day, usually I do some activity with her in the morning, ideally she should have napped before then, have a feed and then we go out to say Gymboree, then a long walk where hopefully she will nap. It's hit and miss though, mostly miss tbh! Then another nap in the afternoon at home. That's the theory I don't think she's taken all of those since she was a newborn :dohh: it's got worse though as she doesn't nap as well when out, yesterday I was out with her from 12 and she finally fell asleep at 3.30. I ended up putting her in the carrier for an hour as she was crying and just not sleeping at all! So she stopped crying and an hour later became restless so cue for me to put her in the buggy to sleep and off she went. That was her 1st nap since 10 am when she fell asleep on the boob at home for 15 minutes! I have a strict, effective bedtime routine which mostly works to get her to sleep every night at 7pm, the night time problems start from about 12-2am. I am now thinking I need to bring a more structured nap pattern too?? I think she may benefit from that. 

As for the dummy, it's not doing it's job as she doesn't replace it herself so it's affecting her sleep as well. Oh babies and their sleep, it's so tough!


----------



## Noelle610

charlie15 said:


> Noelle610 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> charlie15 said:
> 
> 
> Aggggh can I join this thread? I have 5 month old, her sleep at night was fine, well as I would expect with wakings for a feed so fine. I co sleep with here in her room while my OH sleeps in our room with the cat. But the last month has taken it's toll on me, today I was at breaking point to be honest, in tears and I really felt like a bad mum who to be honest when S cried I felt like I just don't care anymore. Obviously I do, but I am just so exhausted! I can't say what it is that S does as I'm so tired I have no idea, there is no pattern and it's totally random. It's not to do with feeding, wake ups for that are fine, it's restlessness, dummy problems, wake up to have a party for 2 hours interspersed with STTN, but I obviously don't myself as I'm too busy checking her breathing! I feel at the end of my tether and look like crap, and all the while OH looks as fresh as a daisy, growl growl! Not fair! Tonight he is going to sleep with her while I hopefully crash out in our room and he will come and get me if she does wake for a feed. I just hope the cat lets me sleep or she may just be thrown out of the window!
> 
> I don't know I need some advice but also need to rant. I really feel like the dummy needs to go, but I need to be in a better state mentally to take that on and also OH needs to be free to help with that. I am also thinking maybe we need to get her into her cot, but the dummy first! It also doesn't help that she does not nap at all, occasionally in her buggy, never in the sling, she's very alert and into everything, so as much as I love baby wearing it's more to occupy her than settle her.
> 
> Sorry I have gone on, but feel a litte stir crazy, if you have got this far, thankyou for reading, all tips welcome :)
> 
> :hugs: You can vent here any time!
> 
> If the dummy is a problem I think you sould get rid of it.
> 
> 5 months is a hard time for naps I think. How often do you put her down?Click to expand...
> 
> Thank you, well I put her down at least 3 times a day, usually I do some activity with her in the morning, ideally she should have napped before then, have a feed and then we go out to say Gymboree, then a long walk where hopefully she will nap. It's hit and miss though, mostly miss tbh! Then another nap in the afternoon at home. That's the theory I don't think she's taken all of those since she was a newborn :dohh: it's got worse though as she doesn't nap as well when out, yesterday I was out with her from 12 and she finally fell asleep at 3.30. I ended up putting her in the carrier for an hour as she was crying and just not sleeping at all! So she stopped crying and an hour later became restless so cue for me to put her in the buggy to sleep and off she went. That was her 1st nap since 10 am when she fell asleep on the boob at home for 15 minutes! I have a strict, effective bedtime routine which mostly works to get her to sleep every night at 7pm, the night time problems start from about 12-2am. I am now thinking I need to bring a more structured nap pattern too?? I think she may benefit from that.
> 
> As for the dummy, it's not doing it's job as she doesn't replace it herself so it's affecting her sleep as well. Oh babies and their sleep, it's so tough!Click to expand...

I agree with bananaz that I'd have her awake for no more than 2 hours at a time. I'd also put her in her cribs for naps with a dark room and loud white noise. Motion sleep becomes a bit lest restful at this and her lack of quality naps may be making her overtired. I've found a short naptime routine works well and gives LO an opportunity to wind down. 

Night wakings after midnight are common because a baby's first stretch of sleep at this age is often their deepest. If you can get her on a good daytime schedule, I think it will help :flower:


----------



## Shadowy Lady

Noelle, I have a question for you. Are you still on sleep meds? I was barely on them for the past month (like I would take 1/2 Ativan every 4 days), but the recent bad nights messed me up so 4 nights ago I took a full pill....now for the past 3 nights I find myself waking up every 2-3 hours which has nothing to do with Sofia :(

I'm scared of taking more meds and getting addicted and never being able to get off them. My DH says 1/2 pill every other night for now should be ok until Sofia's back to sttn (which she's getting close to)...but I'm sooo scared yet I need the sleep. I had 5 hours of broken sleep last night and have been up since 3:30 am!


----------



## Noelle610

Shadowy Lady said:


> Noelle, I have a question for you. Are you still on sleep meds? I was barely on them for the past month (like I would take 1/2 Ativan every 4 days), but the recent bad nights messed me up so 4 nights ago I took a full pill....now for the past 3 nights I find myself waking up every 2-3 hours which has nothing to do with Sofia :(
> 
> I'm scared of taking more meds and getting addicted and never being able to get off them. My DH says 1/2 pill every other night for now should be ok until Sofia's back to sttn (which she's getting close to)...but I'm sooo scared yet I need the sleep. I had 5 hours of broken sleep last night and have been up since 3:30 am!

Hi hi, yes I am. I actually just went to a follow up appointment with my doctor today. She recommended I continue taking them for a minimum of 6 more months with her preference being a year. Her reasoning was that a lack of sleep is a serious trigger for PND and I'm sleeping pretty well right now.

You may want to speak with your doctor about a different medication. At first I took Klonopin, which is very similar to Ativan (anti-anxiety) to sleep. It worked like a charm, but it is very habit forming and not really suited to every day use. I now take Trazadone and it works great! The drug was originally used for depression, but now it's basically used off-label for insomnia. It's a popular choice before something like Ativan/Klonopin or serious sleep medications like Lunesta or Ambien because it's not habit forming. You do have to reduce it gradually, but it doesn't make you "high" in any way at all. I still wake when Charlotte does too. I'm not out of it. 

If your doctor doesn't really take you seriously, you may want to see your OB or a psychiatrist. Postpartum insomina is SOOO common, but sometimes medical professionals aren't super familiar with it and don't know quite how to treat it. Here's a good reference that helped me:

https://voices.yahoo.com/post-partum-insomnia-one-moms-experience-5947966.html?cat=25

Be well and take care of yourself!


----------



## seaweed eater

The woman who runs my baby group has a story about how she had had a lot of orange juice the day her eldest first slept 7 hours, and she called her husband at work the next morning with an urgent request for orange juice... :p


----------



## Shadowy Lady

Noelle - thank u so much! Just called my doc and got an appt. I'm pleased to hear there are meds that are not as addictive. 

Re - ppl bragging on FB: I have two "friends" that do it all the time! There's a new status every single day I kid you not. Of course I always see the status when I'v had a bad night so I only feel worse :(


----------



## seaweed eater

Charlie :hugs: starting to be more consistent at naptime helped us a lot with the kind of issues you are describing. Mine was a little younger at the time and didn't like to sleep in his bassinet during the day, so I let him sleep in his bouncy chair, but always there. I tried to be home for every nap for a few days and did a wind down and a brief routine (white noise, Twinkle Twinkle) and after several days he started napping much more predictably. Then it was much easier to get him from the bouncy chair into his bed once we had the routine. It did take a week or two though so don't give up after just a few days. Mine is the same in that he does really well with his bedtime routine and is super alert all day, so I think it really helps him to have a cue that it's time to rest.


----------



## Shadowy Lady

we had a sttn again :) she slept from 6:30 pm to 6:30 am exactly. She would have slept more but she was stuck in her crib again. She took a little nap as I fed her this morning and I think tomorrow if she does this I'll move her to see if she sleeps more.

I slept fine too but had my half Ativan as well as Nyquil (I've come down with a pretty bad cold again). Hoping you ladies all had a great night :)


----------



## Noelle610

Yay Shadowy Lady!

Great night here (STTN 7pm-6:30am) and a new front tooth this morning! I slept okay, but feel utterly exhausted for some reason.


----------



## seaweed eater

Yay for STTN!! :happydance:

We had kind of a weird night, but it was very obviously related to physical development stuff (he's learning to butt shuffle), so I'm not too concerned about it. Also, for some reason he decided to take his 5-hour stretch during a time when I was also asleep, which turned out pretty ok for me...


----------



## VikkiD

Lo didn't sleep well last night up at 12 for a feed an again at 4 he didn't take much food yesterday he as got to the stage of not wanting me to feed him he wants to do it himself now.


----------



## charlie15

Well last night i had a much needed break which helped me get started with some serious nap business!! last night she went to bed as usual at 7pm, woke at 10.30 for a feed, which i was glad of as i knew it would be more than likely that she'd go until the morning without a feed so i could have a rest as OH was going to be in with her. And that was the case, she had her morning feed at 9am having woken at 8.30. OH got to see what my problem is during the night with the dummy and restlessness, which i think is good for him to see so he will be just as keen as me to get rid of it!

Regarding naps, i went for the 1st one at 10.30, i did a much shortened version of her night time routine, it took 50 minutes to get her to sleep!!! but it was worth it as she napped for 1 hour and 20 minutes in her cot! :) so she was up at 12.40 so was looking at her second nap at 2.30 to 3pm. Unfortunately this got a bit messed up as i had popped out with her and planned on getting home for 2ish for her 2nd nap but got delayed, however she fell asleep in her carrier (for the 1st time in 3 months!!!) and we managed to get her room ready and put her in her cot when we got home. It was later than it should have been at 3.15pm she napped for 30 minutes, so not too bad for a start. Think the nap must have exhilarated S as she rolled from tummy to back for the first time today!! of course i had my back turned when she did it!! but she gave me an encore later with her nana and my OH :)

Tomorrow will be tricky as it is her christening, so i am hoping to try with the morning nap again, like this morning, but we will be out until 5pm. The same again on Sunday as having a family do, so will focus on getting that morning nap at home for the next 2 days as that's all i can do.

Thank you ladies for your tips, i think i am going to concentrate on the naps before i remove the dummy, as want a rested baby when i deal with that rather than a chronically overtired one!!

Good to see lots of babies STTN here, gives me hope :)


----------



## Noelle610

Sounds like it's going well charlie! It will take some time, so no need to worry about the 50 minutes. It's so funny that she fell asleep in the carrier for the first time in months :haha:


----------



## Boo44

We had a sttn 7.30-7am here! I think I have noticed now that he seems to sleep later in the morning if his afternoon nap is shorter. Could he have been under tired all this time to wake at 6 so often? Hmm now I've worked it out watch him wake up early tomorrow despite me capping his pm nap!


----------



## Noelle610

Very possible boo! Undertired does happen.


----------



## bananaz

Boo44 said:


> We had a sttn 7.30-7am here! I think I have noticed now that he seems to sleep later in the morning if his afternoon nap is shorter. Could he have been under tired all this time to wake at 6 so often? Hmm now I've worked it out watch him wake up early tomorrow despite me capping his pm nap!

Are you sure it wasn't because your nephew pushed him in his walker? :winkwink:

It's great to see all these STTNs! Hopefully Elsie will get there someday, though I will admit I'm starting to lose hope again lol. Most nights she only has one waking, though, and it's after at least a 7 hour stretch so I can't complain (which is why I haven't been on this thread much, usually I am here to complain :haha:). Last night she was up a bunch but I think it was teething-related, and also more fun developmental stuff. Hopefully tonight will be better.


----------



## Noelle610

bananz, she will sleep through the night by the time she's five... I promise :rofl:

Just to be clear, Charlotte isn't perfect now. She will STTN for like a week and then we'll have night wakings. I am happy with this too, which is why I haven't had many personal updates lately. I know how bad it can be. Honestly, I cannot even conceive of a baby that sleeps through the night without a peep every night.


----------



## Boo44

bananaz said:


> Boo44 said:
> 
> 
> We had a sttn 7.30-7am here! I think I have noticed now that he seems to sleep later in the morning if his afternoon nap is shorter. Could he have been under tired all this time to wake at 6 so often? Hmm now I've worked it out watch him wake up early tomorrow despite me capping his pm nap!
> 
> Are you sure it wasn't because your nephew pushed him in his walker? :winkwink:
> 
> It's great to see all these STTNs! Hopefully Elsie will get there someday, though I will admit I'm starting to lose hope again lol. Most nights she only has one waking, though, and it's after at least a 7 hour stretch so I can't complain (which is why I haven't been on this thread much, usually I am here to complain :haha:). Last night she was up a bunch but I think it was teething-related, and also more fun developmental stuff. Hopefully tonight will be better.Click to expand...

LOL that really made me giggle! Quite possibly!!


----------



## seaweed eater

Wow, Charlie, that's a lot happening at once! Congrats on the rolling and on her 5 month birthday! :happydance: And her christening tomorrow!

I think 50 minutes for the first attempt with your new routine is very promising, actually. I remember a couple times it took me about an hour and a half to get mine down for naps after I started trying to implement more of a routine. Keep going, when you can, and she'll get it eventually!


----------



## Boo44

Noelle610 said:


> bananz, she will sleep through the night by the time she's five... I promise :rofl:
> 
> Just to be clear, Charlotte isn't perfect now. She will STTN for like a week and then we'll have night wakings. I am happy with this too, which is why I haven't had many personal updates lately. I know how bad it can be. Honestly, I cannot even conceive of a baby that sleeps through the night without a peep every night.

Yup we get 'peeps' most nights too. But I still describe it as sttn as usually I don't have to get up, it's just enough to make me stir slightly then he settles.


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## polaris

STTN still feels quite a long way off here. But at least we are down to two or three wakings which seems manageable in comparison to how she used to be.


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## gaiagirl

Great things on here today! I really can't fathom no peeps for 12 hours either! It would freak me out. I'd be pretty happy with just 1/2 wake ups!

Charlie - sounds great! Good progress:) 

Nothing new here, except I did my first back carry with a woven wrap today! Not sleep related but fun nonetheless :)


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## Shadowy Lady

Waaaaaa back to being up for 2 hours in the middle of the night (3 am to 5 am). Why is my baby sooooo inconsistent???


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## Noelle610

Shadowy Lady said:


> Waaaaaa back to being up for 2 hours in the middle of the night (3 am to 5 am). Why is my baby sooooo inconsistent???

I often wonder this too. I haven't come up with any answer other than "she's a baby" :haha: And that's after quite a bit of research LOL


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## cmarie33

Haven't posted in here for a while but things are no better with me. Tried cc, CIO, all sorts! I had two hours sleep last night. :cry:


----------



## Noelle610

cmarie33 said:


> Haven't posted in here for a while but things are no better with me. Tried cc, CIO, all sorts! I had two hours sleep last night. :cry:

Aww. So sorry. Tell me about the sleep training you tried and why it didn't work.


----------



## cmarie33

Noelle610 said:


> cmarie33 said:
> 
> 
> Haven't posted in here for a while but things are no better with me. Tried cc, CIO, all sorts! I had two hours sleep last night. :cry:
> 
> Aww. So sorry. Tell me about the sleep training you tried and why it didn't work.Click to expand...

Ah noelle you've commented on my posts before trying to help me :) 

First we tried gradual retreat. Us being in the room with her just winds her up even more, so that and cc checking on her don't help. She self settles for bed an naps fine so I know she can self settle. 
It's when she wakes at night. She usually does about 5 hours. Wakes for a feed- and will go back down fine usually. But after this she can wake between 1-5 times and not get back to sleep. I'm 99% certain she just wants to comfort suck on me. 
Last night she woke at 1 for a feed. Put her bk down and after 30 mins she was awake again. We left her to CIO (I have a video monitor) and she was a pain til 5 am when I caved and fed her again to see if that would help. It didn't. 
She would occasionally doze off for 20 mins before waking up again xx


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## Noelle610

I'm sorry hun. This is probably unhelpful , but sometimes the best medicine is truly time.


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## bananaz

Erghh we did not have a great night. LO didn't go to sleep until 8pm and then woke up a bit before 4am, her usual wakeup time. I've been working yet again on gently eliminating that last feeding and had gotten it down to only 3 minutes so I thought that it was time to just get rid of it altogether. 

After letting her fuss for 10 minutes I went in to pat her. Well 40 minutes and 3,000 pats later (yes I count, lol) I finally tried to creep away and guess what? She immediately stood up and started crying :growlmad: So I chased her around the crib for a while trying to get her to lie down, and when she finally seemed like she was going to stay down I left. 

Five minutes later she was up and crying again and by that point I was so tired and frustrated I decided to just leave her to it. She cried off and on for 20 minutes, then finally fell asleep for 10 minutes, and then got up and cried intermittently until 6:15 when I finally just gave up and got her up for the day.

I know that I just need to grow a pair and stick to a plan here but she has this amazing ability to make me second-guess every decision I make. It's like, "Oh you're not feeding me until 6am? Well how about 5:55am? Hmm, what if I wake up at 5:30am now, that's pretty close isn't it?" And then suddenly we're at 4am feedings again!


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## seaweed eater

Gaiagirl, how'd F like the back carry? We tried once and it freaked Munchkin out! Maybe I did it wrong, or he could tell I was nervous or something.

Ugh not a good night at all here either :sleep: I'm actually not at all sure what's going on. Bedtime was normal then he woke at 10, which is unusual...then woke at 12:30 to poop :shock: and didn't really settle well after that. He hasn't pooped at night since he was tiny. After that, it was like he thought it was morning. He would be up for 30-45 minutes and then sleep for less than an hour. Perfectly cheerful, squealing and babbling away. I basically ignored him until the fussing picked up, then went in to nurse him...repeat. I think we got a couple hours between 5 and 7 so I can't really remember all of it. :coffee: Although when DH changed him this morning he said he thinks he pooped again during the night and we missed it. :dohh:

The poop is getting a little out of control. He's had more than usual for the past week or so but never at night. I'd already called the clinic about it and they said it wasn't enough to worry about without other symptoms. My best guess is teething??? Because that would cause both night wakings and diarrhea, right? But wouldn't he also be waking in pain?

He's also babbling up a storm, butt shuffling, and very nearly rolling (for the first time :blush:) so all of that is probably keeping him up as well.

So do you guys have any tips for moving him into the crib?? With all the moving around he's doing, it's really starting to be urgent. I'm pretty scared of that...although, as DH pointed out, maybe it's just as well if his sleep is crap already... :sleep: :sleep: (I probably will regret that last part tomorrow.)


----------



## gaiagirl

Shadowy, I hear you! My LO is sooo inconsistent! 2 awesome nights, 3 ok ones and then 2 rough ones all in a week. Sigh....

Seaweed - He liked it! Was squirmy after a little bit as he always gets in carriers but luckily stayed still while doing the wrapping which was so freaky!

Crazy about the poop! I think we had a little last night but that's probably because he woke up at 3:30 acting like it was 7:30! Arg I hate MOTN parties!!!! I can handle his frequent wakings because we bedshare, but when he doesn't quickly go back to sleep (or stay asleep since most of his wakings are partial) it is infuriating! Lol. 

I knew we were in for it last night when he had a late nap and late bedtime (my fault). And yup, he was restless alllll night!

He also took longer naps yesterday and I'm seriously starting to wonder if that makes his sleep worse! His two awesome nights were when he had 3/4 very short 40min naps. Most of which were in the car which is usually lower quality sleep!


----------



## Shadowy Lady

eeek last night seemed to have been a bad one for most babies :( what's going on in this thread???

I have a doc appt on Tuesday so I'll have Sofia checked out at the same time. I just don't understand why she wakes up and won't go back down. She's cranky and tired today of course. She had a one hour nap an hour after she woke up and she's on her second nap now for the past 1.5 hours :/


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## cmarie33

Noelle610 said:


> I'm sorry hun. This is probably unhelpful , but sometimes the best medicine is truly time.

I know. She's a very strong willed little baby, just like her mum! :-/ lol


----------



## polaris

We're having a horrible evening here too so far. Clara woke up after 45 minutes which she hasn't done for ages and she just wouldn't resettle at all and I ended up feeding her. I just feel totally demoralized that we went through all that crying and her sleep is still so rubbish. I just don't understand why she's waking - her daytime schedule is good, she's totally happy during the day, she doesn't seem to be teething or anything. I don't know how to respond to her when she wakes either. I'm not willing to continue letting her cry but if I go back to feeding her every time she wakes then will she gradually go back to waking up every hour again? Just feeling so depressed about it to be honest.


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## seaweed eater

Sorry, Polaris :hugs: :hugs: I wish I knew what to suggest.


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## polaris

Well I am just putting last night down as a write off! Clara went to bed at 7 and woke up at 7.45, 9.30, 12, 1.30, 4, 5.30, and then I had to wake her at 7.30 to start the day. I managed to resettle her without feeding at about half of the wake-ups but she just never seemed to go into a deep sleep until after the 5.30 wake-up when she slept soundly until I woke her at 7.30. There has to be something wrong like teething or something, surely. The only thing is that during the day she is in great form and shows no sign of being in any discomfort. I honestly don't know what to do now, just hoping for a better night tonight.


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## Noelle610

Oh no, crap nights! Sorry girls.

Polaris, it may have just been a bad night. It happens. C sleeps pretty well these days, but we've still had some shitty nights even after a normal day. Hang in there.


----------



## charlie15

Thought I'd update you all on our crazy weekend with S. well I have been pretty strict with morning nap and even got my OH in on getting S to nap and he's doing great at sticking to plan so far. So yesterday her morning nap was 50 minutes, the rest of the day was trickier what with her christening and Lots of family wanting cuddles which really wore her out, poor baby :( but I did hide her away in a quiet corner in her buggy for an hour long nap in the afternoon. Bedtime took a lot longer for her to settle, but after her day that was as expected, she woke at 10 and 5 am for feeds, a few times with the dummy for OH. Today she napped 1 and a half hours :)' so nice, now off for some more family cuddles!

Sorry about all the rubbish nights, Polaris yours sounds awful, it must be teething with all those wake ups?


----------



## charlie15

Thought I'd update you all on our crazy weekend with S. well I have been pretty strict with morning nap and even got my OH in on getting S to nap and he's doing great at sticking to plan so far. So yesterday her morning nap was 50 minutes, the rest of the day was trickier what with her christening and Lots of family wanting cuddles which really wore her out, poor baby :( but I did hide her away in a quiet corner in her buggy for an hour long nap in the afternoon. Bedtime took a lot longer for her to settle, but after her day that was as expected, she woke at 10 and 5 am for feeds, a few times with the dummy for OH. Today she napped 1 and a half hours :)' so nice, now off for some more family cuddles!

Sorry about all the rubbish nights, Polaris yours sounds awful, it must be teething with all those wake ups?


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## Shadowy Lady

Polaris - eeeee I'm so sorry :( u think it may have been an off night?

Sofia slept through again last night this time 13 hours straight!(6:30pm to 7:30am). While I'm happy and rested, I think she's gotta be the most yo-yo'ing baby on here!! I just don't understand how one night is so shitty and the next is so great....


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## Boo44

Well we've had an odd time - jack sttn until 6.10am and I heard him but didn't go in. The next thing I knew he'd slept until 8.30 am! This he has never ever done since the day he was born. Sooo no amount of trying made him have a morning nap, he was just full of the joys of spring! So he ended up falling asleep in the car at 1pm. I managed to get him from his seat into his cot (!!) and he's asleep there now. By the time he wakes up it may well be a similar time to when he'd wake (ish) from his usual pm nap. Soo he seems to have decided to have a one nap day. How random. I go back to work in 6 weeks and obv 8.30am will be no good! Plus it's confused the rest of the day! So I'll be waking him from now on at 7.30. If I ever get that luxury - I'm sure tomorrow he'll have reverted back to his usual early wakings hehe

Also - my friends keep banging on about how their babies sleep became terrible when they started crawling. Jack is getting pretty close now (!) and I feel like they're almost using it as a 'haha he won't sleep well then!' thing against me! Thing is, 3 of them still have night feeds and one (11 months) is still rocked to sleep. All this is fine and works for them! But I'm hoping that maybe we won't have all the same sleep issues when he crawls? Pretty please!


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## seaweed eater

We had a brief visit to urgent care last night when LO woke up screaming and wouldn't nurse. They said it sounds like a stomach bug. I still think it's teething, but I'm just glad it's nothing serious. After that the night was bad but not as bad as I feared. I thought he didn't poop but DH said in the morning that he did and I missed it :( sorry buddy. He had another MOTN party so I'm starting to think MOTN party = poop. At least this week.

Anyway, hoping he's on the way to getting better. He's racking up more and more sleep deprivation and I'd really like that to end before we attempt another night in the crib. He won't nap there for more than one cycle, so yesterday DH had to drive him around in the afternoon to give him a third nap.

Polaris, SL, glad you had better nights last night! :hugs: Boo, how old are they supposed to be when they move to one nap? Anyway, it sounds like it worked well for you to go with it just for the one time! :thumbup:


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## Shadowy Lady

Seaweed - we had MOTN due to pooping for like a week when Sofia was 6 months old. It will pass :) glad to hear your LO is ok...


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## seaweed eater

Hmm, funny that it was the same time...does Sofia have any teeth now? Or did you start giving her solids around that time? I know that can change their poop a lot...Munchkin is not on solids yet.

An hour 20 minutes since we started trying to put him down for his first nap, and he's currently playing away happily in the jumper. Grrr.


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## Sunnie1984

Ummmm I'm so sorry, I know I usually reply to everyone, but I just can't! You guys have all been so active, I am completely lost, and too tired to work back through it all and read it! 

No idea why I'm tired really, just am. 

Seren sleeping ok. She's awake a few times a night needing repositioning, but that's pretty much it. 

Although she has been sleeping curled into a ball in the corner of her cot, which sets the bloody movement monitor off at least once per night, but I'm too paranoid to turn it off! 

You should see me at 3am when the warning beep goes off, I look like I've been set at the blocks for a 100m sprint, I dive out of bed and sprint down the corridor to get there before the main alarm goes off and wakes her up! 

Found Seren sleeps much sounder when she's properly tired, and it turns out the wake ups are undertired wake ups, as are the early mornings! 

Seren had a meltdown after we were out late at a party (by late, I mean we left at 5:30pm instead of 5pm :haha: ), but then slept like a rock, that's how we discovered it! 

Glad to see lots of STTN going on! Polaris, I caught your posts particularly. :hugs: I have no advice, but lots of sympathy. 

x


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## polaris

Thanks everyone. Naps today were a disaster too. She wouldn't settle for morning nap and I ended up feeding her almost to sleep because I had to leave her with the babysitter to bring my toddler swimming so I just needed her to go to sleep. Anyway she then slept for an hour and a half but then refused to settle for her afternoon nap. It took almost an hour to get her to sleep and then she woke up after twenty minutes. :dohh:

She's in bed since 6 p.m. but woke up after 45 minutes, possibly a bit windy, because she resettled quickly after a little burp. Does anyone else still have issues with wind at this age? Clara never had a difficulty with wind until she was four months old! It's like she has everything backwards - my DS was dreadful with wind but his got better at four months which seems much more usual!


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## Noelle610

Sunnie, I still feel tired even when C sleeps okay. I think we just don't sleep as soundly now they're we're moms.

Polaris :hugs:


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## gaiagirl

Polaris that's frustrating, we have been struggling with naps a bit and even gone back to swaddling because I was so fed up. I can now feel a teeny edge of a bottom tooth though so I'm hoping that's why he's so bonkers with naps this week.

Seaweed - that's a crazy night, I hope tonight is better and A is feeling better!

I agree about the tiredness...honestly the amount of tired I feel in the morning doesn't even usually correspond to how F sleeps! Sometimes the weather has a bigger impact on my energy level too!


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## cmarie33

Well LO is at her grandparents tonight so she can do whatever she wants! Last night wasn't as bad. She woke twice before waking at 6.30 for the day. Hope everyone's nights are better than last nights x


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## seaweed eater

Second night in a row LO has woken up screaming after 45 minutes. I know it's not the most obvious explanation, but it kind of seems like night terrors to both me and DH. :( DH said he seemed asleep when he first went in to check on him, plus the crying sounded _scared_. And he calmed down quickly once we took him out of his room.

I guess it could also just be teething. :shrug:

He's still in the bassinet at night...but I'm getting really nervous to have him in there. We left it way too long. :( I guess I should let him nap in the car during the day so that at least he's better rested, and then we can try a gentle move at night? I'm also thinking I'll put his bassinet mattress in there for a couple nights, with some rolled up towels next to it or something. I don't know. Somehow we have to get him into that crib.


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## Sunnie1984

Noelle610 said:


> Sunnie, I still feel tired even when C sleeps okay. I think we just don't sleep as soundly now they're we're moms.
> 
> Polaris :hugs:

Weirdly, I actually feel more awake when I've been up several times during the night. Maybe it's the adrenaline needed to keep me awake! :haha:



seaweed eater said:


> Second night in a row LO has woken up screaming after 45 minutes. I know it's not the most obvious explanation, but it kind of seems like night terrors to both me and DH. :( DH said he seemed asleep when he first went in to check on him, plus the crying sounded _scared_. And he calmed down quickly once we took him out of his room.
> 
> I guess it could also just be teething. :shrug:
> 
> He's still in the bassinet at night...but I'm getting really nervous to have him in there. We left it way too long. :( I guess I should let him nap in the car during the day so that at least he's better rested, and then we can try a gentle move at night? I'm also thinking I'll put his bassinet mattress in there for a couple nights, with some rolled up towels next to it or something. I don't know. Somehow we have to get him into that crib.

I find that a waking 45 minutes after bed is usually overtired. Seren does this when she's overtired, and it's a really horrible scream with it too. Can you try putting him down just 15 mins earlier? Sometimes a little bit earlier can make a world of difference. 

Have you thought about putting the bassinet in the crib? If it's one that you can take the legs off, just put it in the crib, so he gets used to being in the new space, and then take the bassinet away after a few nights? 

We did ok here last night. One waking after 45 minutes, but that was overtired because she had a 30 minute crawling round the room party before bed, as she just wouldn't settle, so went to bed 30 minutes late. 

Then a random waking at 3am, she was really screaming. Wondering if it was a nightmare, as she couldn't settle herself, but when I went to her and picked her up, it only took a couple of minutes of cuddles to go back to sleep. 

We're on a bit of a milk strike here, she's so distracted by crawling at the moment it's almost impossible to get food into her. She's BLW so she's not actually eating much solids. I'm just trying to let her tell me when she's hungry, rather than trying to ply her with it all day. Hopefully we'll get back on track soon. 

Hope everyone else is having a restful night! 

x


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## seaweed eater

He's definitely very overtired. :( I thought that could be triggering the night terror, if that's what it was. He's really not napping enough during the day, since we haven't sorted out this nap transition yet, and at night it hasn't really been enough either what with the MOTN parties and the doctor visit last night. I think I just need to be more insistent about naps tomorrow, and let him nap in the car if that's the only way he will. His first nap today wasn't until 11:30. :shock:

The bassinet is a pack n play one so the bassinet part of it is just a soft frame that hangs on the playpen, if that makes sense. So putting the mattress in the crib is as close as we can get. I like the suggestion, though. The bassinet has been right next to the crib for over a week now so hopefully he is getting used to the look of the bars on one side (and it's the side he faces). I don't know why he won't sleep in it. We slept in a hotel one night a couple weeks ago and he slept, not as well as usual, but decently. And he's napped over an hour in his crib at daycare. I don't get it. :shrug:

I'm sorry about the milk strike :hugs: that is always stressful. You are doing the right thing in letting her take the lead, though. I hope tonight is as good as or better than last night for you.


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## VikkiD

Lo as been waking up a couple of times in the night normally around 2 settling himself then wanting a feed. Yesterday we went out for lunch and his naps were a bit all over the place I think he got around 2 hours in total though. He was shattered by 6:15 so put him to bed early an he slept 12 hours without a sound from him.


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## Noelle610

Vikki, that's awesome!

Seaweed, we get the 45 minute thing pretty often unfortunately. Sometimes it's overtired, sometimes I think it's dreaming (or that's what my pediatrician says) and sometimes teething. I try not to stress about it too much. The sleep coach I know said it does pass.

In terms of the bassinet, I did two rolled up towels in a u-shape facing each other under the crib sheet to make a bassinet type thing in the crib for about a week. It worked well. I think if you can stick with it LO will be fine. Like I always say, they're adaptable!


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## mellyboo

I need to rant..

So my baby decides to finally sleep decent last night and i go to bed around 930 and im literally laying there awake and i swear i seen 430 am pass by all i kept thinking was o.m.g im going to be tired.. and why isnt my baby up a zillion times im missing a grand sleeping oppertunity.. I think i fell asleep after 430 :( and she woke up at 630 to eat then back down till 8am...

I'm so flipping tired.. OH works nights but his getting up around 11 30 and im going to BED!!


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## VikkiD

I just don't know what to do today now lol do I let him nap late till 4 or do I try get him have a nap now an put him bed at the same time so confusing lol


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## Noelle610

Melly, I used to do that too! You're so used to waking that it can be hard to sleep when you have the opportunity. 

Vikki, what time did he wake from his last nap? I tend to err on the side of early bedtime versus a late nap.


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## polaris

We had a much better night last night, back to only two feeds and another couple of very brief wakings. I think she was overtired. I think I have been keeping her awake too long before her naps. I got her up at 7 a.m. today and put her down at 9 a.m. for a nap and she went down without a peep even though she was wide awake and didn't seem at all sleepy. Got her up at 10.30 and down again at 1, again way before she seemed in any way tired, and she talked to herself for five minutes and went to sleep. I think by the time she is showing any tired signs it's too late. 

And guess what, I looked back at my diary from when DS was a baby, and his sleep was absolutely terrible at seven months, but by 8 months he was only waking once at about 5 a.m. and by 9.5 months he was sleeping through pretty consistently. Fingers crossed Clara follows a similar pattern!


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## Noelle610

Polaris, I'm so glad to hear you had a better night! If we're getting a lot of fussiness and night waking, I always kind of try to shorten wake times in hopes of reducing overtiredness.

Our night wasn't so great. My LO is getting tons of teeth and she was teething so badly. She woke several times only to scream out for 15 seconds and then return to sleep. So all in all she was really okay (just uncomfortable), but DH and I got really broken sleep. I finally gave in and gave her advil at 5am, but I just feel like we've been medicating her so much recently. Teething tablets only cut it for so long. It's hard because she teeths really badly. I've considered getting her an amber teething bracelet, but I can't find any evidence that they actually work.


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## mellyboo

Noelle610 said:


> Polaris, I'm so glad to hear you had a better night! If we're getting a lot of fussiness and night waking, I always kind of try to shorten wake times in hopes of reducing overtiredness.
> 
> Our night wasn't so great. My LO is getting tons of teeth and she was teething so badly. She woke several times only to scream out for 15 seconds and then return to sleep. So all in all she was really okay (just uncomfortable), but DH and I got really broken sleep. I finally gave in and gave her advil at 5am, but I just feel like we've been medicating her so much recently. Teething tablets only cut it for so long. It's hard because she teeths really badly. I've considered getting her an amber teething bracelet, but I can't find any evidence that they actually work.

Had the necklace it did crap she isn't any different I ended up taking it off


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## bananaz

*melly* - Ugh that's the worst! For the past couple weeks I've been taking two meds that make me sleepy before bed because otherwise I just lie there and get really anxious. Anyway, I hope you get some sleep today!

*polaris* - I'm glad you had a better night. It sounds like you are definitely on the right track with the naps. I think a lot of babies go straight from happy and awake to monstrously overtired so sometimes you just have to go by the clock instead of waiting for sleepy cues.

*Noelle* - Sorry you had a rough night :( I know what you mean about the medicating. Elsie is also teething right now and it seems like I end up giving her a dose of ibuprofen before bed more often than not, but the nights that I don't she does the same crying out thing you're describing. Anyway, I know if it were me I would want the pain relief! I haven't been able to find any real evidence for the necklace either, or even a reasonable explanation for how it might work. I want to believe but the science just isn't there, though they do look really cute! I hope Charlotte's teeth cut through soon. Which ones does she have coming in now? 


The past few nights have been okay. I decided to not give any feeds no matter what before 6am for 4 nights and then if she's still waking for a feed on the 5th night I would reconsider. I feel so torn because 10-11 hours does seem like a long time for her to have to go without food, but then again she's almost a year old and there are little 6-week-old babies who sleep 12+ hours straight through every night! And she gets three solid meals a day in addition to lots of nursing.

Anyway, last night was night 3 of this plan and she slept from 7:45pm to 5am which is an improvement, but she just couldn't get resettle herself, though she really did try. When it became clear she wasn't going back to sleep on her own, I went in and attempted to soothe her. It was totally futile, which I knew going in, but somehow I always feel obligated to try. Finally I got her up at 6am and fed her, but after that she was really cranky and clearly not ready to be awake so I put her back to bed at 6:45am and she went straight to sleep. I know I probably should've just kept her up for a couple hours but she was so tired and grumpy I couldn't do it.

Fingers crossed all this hassle will actually pay off and she will finally adjust to not having that feed tonight!


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## VikkiD

He had a nap this morning 9:45 till 11 then he just had another nap 2:25 till 3:15 do you reckon 7:15 bedtime?


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## Noelle610

Bananaz, a lot of my breastfeeding friends have had a hard time giving up that 4am/5am feeding. It's tough. No advice here! I guess I don't think 11-12 hours is a long time to go without eating because I regularly go that long in the evening :haha: But everyone is different.

I feel like I would want the pain meds too! I know that overmedicating is looked down upon, but I really don't think infant advil would have adverse affects. Charlotte is currently getting FIVE teeth - four top ones (they're just starting to break through) and a molar. Poor kid.


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## Noelle610

VikkiD said:


> He had a nap this morning 9:45 till 11 then he just had another nap 2:25 till 3:15 do you reckon 7:15 bedtime?

Oh yes, that's perfect - I'd probably even do somewhere between 6:30pm and 7pm.


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## seaweed eater

Melly, I've done that :nope: even though LO has had nearly 8 hour stretches, I never have, even when we were going to bed at the same time... :hugs:


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## seaweed eater

Noelle610 said:


> Seaweed, we get the 45 minute thing pretty often unfortunately. Sometimes it's overtired, sometimes I think it's dreaming (or that's what my pediatrician says) and sometimes teething. I try not to stress about it too much. The sleep coach I know said it does pass.

Is she also really hard to settle when she wakes at that time? We've had early evening wakings before but not like this, where he won't nurse and it takes an hour before he's asleep again.



Noelle610 said:


> I think if you can stick with it LO will be fine. Like I always say, they're adaptable!

Supposing he does what he did last time and just won't sleep in it for more than ten minutes...would you just keep resettling him and putting him down there anyway? All night if necessary? At some point I start worrying that the lack of sleep is doing more harm than good...I think we gave up at midnight last time.


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## Noelle610

seaweed eater said:


> Noelle610 said:
> 
> 
> Seaweed, we get the 45 minute thing pretty often unfortunately. Sometimes it's overtired, sometimes I think it's dreaming (or that's what my pediatrician says) and sometimes teething. I try not to stress about it too much. The sleep coach I know said it does pass.
> 
> Is she also really hard to settle when she wakes at that time? We've had early evening wakings before but not like this, where he won't nurse and it takes an hour before he's asleep again.
> 
> 
> 
> Noelle610 said:
> 
> 
> I think if you can stick with it LO will be fine. Like I always say, they're adaptable!Click to expand...
> 
> Supposing he does what he did last time and just won't sleep in it for more than ten minutes...would you just keep resettling him and putting him down there anyway? All night if necessary? At some point I start worrying that the lack of sleep is doing more harm than good...I think we gave up at midnight last time.Click to expand...

Thankfully she does put herself back to sleep within minutes. How long is the wake time between the last nap and bedtime? Perhaps LO is overtired?


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## polaris

Another bedtime nightmare here, she woke from her nap at 2.30, I tried for a third nap at 4.30 because she already seemed tired at that stage but she wouldn't sleep, got her into bed by six and she cried and crawled around the cot for 45 minutes before finally going to sleep at 6.45. I have a feeling she will be waking up again after 45 minutes because she was WAY over-tired.

Recently Clara is preferring to sleep on her tummy and doesn't really want to be on her back. That's fine by me, but the problem is that when she's on her tummy she seems compelled to do push-ups and crawl around in circles. She is really not great at self-settling on her tummy even though she prefers to sleep that way. Has anyone else been through this, I'm guessing it is just a phase. I guess some of our disturbed sleep at the moment could be related to crawling because she is very very close to being able to crawl properly.


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## Shadowy Lady

Noelle - sorry about the crap night. How many teeth are coming at the same time? Are you giving her Advil at the start of the night too?

Melly - I do that quite often. I'm getting better at sleeping at the same time as baby but it's a hit and miss.

Bananaz - sounds to me that Elsie is doing better. I think in your shoes I would just give in the early bf'ing if it means I get a bit more sleep.

Polaris - OMG we're in the exact same boat! She wants to sleep on her tummy yet she can't help but trying to crawl or do push ups in her sleep. I wish I knew how to get her to stop.

We had a semi-decent night. Sofia slept from 6:30 pm till 4:30 am but then again we had the "I'm tired and whiney but can't sleep" marathon till around 5:30 am. Srsly, it's like every other night we go through this! I made a mistake of going in and see if she wants to feed after 30 mins but she then started to scream :( She finally settled on her own around 5:30 am and slept till close to 9 am :/

I still got decent sleep coz I went to bed at 9 pm and managed to sleep until she woke up at 4:30 am and another 2 hours after that. I feel like I come to this thread and repeat the same problem, lol! My baby is awake early mornings for 1-2 hours every other night...wtf for???


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## seaweed eater

Noelle, I think the last wake time yesterday was about 3 hours? Something like that. A little longer than usual for him but not much.

Polaris, we have had a very minor version of what it sounds like you are experiencing with the crawling. In the past week or two before bedtime LO has occasionally scooted himself away from the boob, and then rooted around for it in a way that makes it clear he's not doing it on purpose. I'm sure the crawling is really disruptive to your LO's sleep. I hope it is over soon. :hugs:


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## Noelle610

Polaris, we went through that phase! It will pass. I'm sure you know that, but sometimes it helps to hear it from someone else I think.

Shadowy Lady, I just had a thought... I think Sofia might be getting too much night sleep. I wouldn't be letting her sleep until 9am. Even if she's restless, I'd get her up at 7am and proceed with your day as normal. If her body gets used to making up lost sleep from long night wakings in the early morning, she may continue to do it.


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## NotNic

Gosh so much to read through on here. I go away one weekend... :) From what I've sort of picked up there are lots of pickly behaviour. Naughty babies! Hope that things get back on track very soon. 

I've discovered that F's early starts have ruined me! I went on a hen weekend this weekend to a house in a National Park with zero network coverage. The first night I was there we stayed up until 2ish , having a reasonable amount to drink - cocktails etc. Certainly tipsy but not enough to need anything more than a glass of water the next day. I woke up at 7.20am. By 7.45am I couldnt pretend to doze any longer and I was downstairs doing the dishwasher and tidying up for nearly an hour before any of the other girls surfaced. The next night, again I went to bed around 2am, but was shattered. I woke up at 6!!! I made myself stay in bed because quite frankly who knows when I might ever get to sleep past 8am again but I was the 5th girl down at 8.30 (two never even went to bed). I just couldn't lull in bed. Am I ever going to get and ENJOY a lie in again?!


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## Noelle610

Anything after 6am feels like sleeping in to me!


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## NotNic

I think that's the problem Noelle. If Finlay sleeps anywhere close to 7am I feel like skipping! :D


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## gaiagirl

Seaweed - We have the 45 min wake up EVERY NIGHT seriously. Except for two random nights a few weeks ago, after which I analyzed everything to figure out why and there was no rhyme or reason. He doesn't wake up crying, just wakes up as if it were a nap. 9/10 times I can just get him back to sleep, but sometimes he will refuse until later. 

I'm hoping he grows out of it!


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## cmarie33

Well it's 12.35am. Lo went to bed at 8 and woke up at 11. I fed her then but she's spent the last 1 1/2 hours crying. She's currently comfort sucking, I couldn't bear her crying any longer :(


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## socitycourty

jeez noelle that is a ton of teeth!

Hadley's sleep was horrendous last night. I was actually crying because I was so tired and she wouldn't go to sleep and then kept waking up.

I know she is teething because she's drooling 100x more than usual, she was doing a weird thing with her tongue and also biting.

I can't see anything yet but I think it might be more bottom teeth.

I had a horrible toothache last night, it was storming and extremely windy and noisy, I think I got like 3-4 hours of sleep.

I can't take it anymore! but at the same time can't do the CIO, I know that pick up put down doesn't work for her and CC seems to make her more mad

:(


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## seaweed eater

:hugs: :hugs: Hang in there everyone!


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## VikkiD

Lo is improving so much since the dummy as gone. Last night was 7:30 till 5am when he woke at 5 I ignored him a bit as he sounded still tired he kept going quiet but wouldn't go back sleep so I got up with him at 5:50 but he as seemed tired ever since an now at 7:30 he's falling asleep would you maybe try a bedtime of around 7 tonight


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## cmarie33

Well now I feel awful. We had a horrendous night. I only got three hours sleep but this morning lo has a temp of 38.3 and a cough. She's pulled her ears a couple of times so think she may have an ear infection. How bad do I feel now! :(


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## polaris

OK, so this morning Clara woke at 6.20 a.m. which is very early for her, so all her naps have been pushed earlier. She had her first nap 8.30 to 10, and her second nap 12.30 and still sleeping at 1.45. But she's obviously going to be up by 2 or 2.30 at the latest. So what do I do? It seems like she needs three naps today but she hasn't had three naps for about three or four weeks. I tried to get her to take a cat-nap yesterday for similar reasons but without success. I'm wondering now if some of her crap sleep has been because she moved to two naps too early so we are stuck in some horrible nap transition limbo. 

What would you do in this situation? Try and get her to take a third nap? Try for a super-early bedtime?


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## Noelle610

So sorry for the rough nights ladies :hugs: We had one too. Charlotte seemed to wake up every 10 minutes between 10pm and midnight! I am so exhausted. I guess it must be teething and I think she's also constipated. She just acted like she couldn't get comfortable. As awful as it sounds, I was about ready to let her CIO because nothing I was doing was helping at all, ugh! Of course I didn't do that and eventually she did go to sleep.

Vikki, I am thrilled to hear that getting rid of the dummy helped so much. I suspected it would :)

Polaris, around that age a third nap became nearly impossible for us too. I'd just do a super early bedtime. If she wakes at 2pm, I'd put her down at 5:30pm or 6pm. I've found that Charlotte makes up a lack of daytime sleep overnight, so the early bedtime usually doesn't result in an earlier wake-up.


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## Noelle610

OH! And Charlotte's daycare buddy's mom, who I have become friends with, was complaining about how tired she was because she had to get up last night and pump. Her daughter STTN without a peep for months. I wanted to smack her, although I like her very much and would never do that :haha: Some people don't know how good they've got it. Cue world's smallest violen.


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## cmarie33

Noelle610 said:


> OH! And Charlotte's daycare buddy's mom, who I have become friends with, was complaining about how tired she was because she had to get up last night and pump. Her daughter STTN without a peep for months. I wanted to smack her, although I like her very much and would never do that :haha: Some people don't know how good they've got it. Cue world's smallest violen.

I have a friend who's lo has sttn since she was 6 weeks old. We're talking 6pm-9am! I have never been so jealous! I regularly say to lo 'Chloe has been asleep for X hours now!' I'm sure she grins when I say it!


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## polaris

It really is all relative with sleep isn't it? I remember when Thomas was waking at 5.30 without fail and the very odd morning that he would sleep until 6 a.m. it would feel like a lie-in! I mean, seriously, who ever knew that 6 a.m. could ever feel like a lie-in??

Sorry that Charlotte had a disturbed night too, I do know that feeling of just having had enough of trying unsuccessfully to soothe them when nothing seems to help at all. It's always such a relief when they do finally go to sleep in those situations!!

Clara is still asleep (2.10 p.m.) so I am going to follow Noelle's advice and go for a very early bedtime. Fingers crossed!

Does anyone on this thread have older kids? Reading another thread in baby club about routines got me thinking - I really wanted to be "go with the flow" with Clara because I had to stick to such a strict routine with Thomas, I really had no choice because he would just go into melt-down. And even though having a routine really worked for him, I really hoped that I could be more flexible with number two. With Clara, she doesn't get cranky when she's tired/over-tired, she's still her usual happy cheerful smily self, and it makes it so much easier to keep her up just a little bit too long or to feel like she's OK just having 20 minute naps here and there, so at first I thought that the more flexible approach was working. But now I feel like trying to be flexible and not have a strict routine ended up totally backfiring for Clara and her overall sleep really suffered as a result. I guess it doesn't help that even as a newborn she would never sleep for long in the pram or car-seat. So now I am back to being rigid about protecting her sleep and this takes precedence at the moment over getting out and about with my toddler. Don't get me wrong, he still gets out, but it's more limited because we work around Clara's naps for the moment. This stage won't last forever. Am I being a control freak? I just feel that her need for good quality sleep has to take priority right now.


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## Boo44

Sorry to hear of some unsettled nights! We'd had a run of later morning recently, even some 7am's which is just amazing! I think he's getting ill now though :( He woke us up coughing inbetween 4-5am last night. Poor thing wasn't awake but his coughing kept us up! He's coughed on-and-off today and I've put him to bed and he's fallen straight to sleep but I can already hear coughing through the monitor! So am preparing myself for a disturbed night again... Poor thing really suffers when he gets a cough as he always ends up wheezy too!


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## Noelle610

Poor Jack :(


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## seaweed eater

I've had facebook friends complain about having to get up to pump, too! ARGH!! :dohh: Do you know how excited I am when I have to pump at night? That means LO is sleeping well, I woke up on my own instead of being woken (always more refreshing), AND I'm ahead on pumping for the day. :p

Boo, I hope Jack feels better soon! :hugs: Mine has had a bit of a sore throat and started sniffling this morning so I'm afraid we're heading into another cold too...bracing myself!

Polaris, it doesn't sound to me like you're being a control freak at all. Keeping Clara on track with sleep is definitely important.

We had a really good night in the crib!!! :happydance: :happydance: Good by any standards. And no 45-minute waking in the evening, either. I was the nap master yesterday (2 normal length naps and 3 short ones: two in the car and one wake-to-sleep fail) so I think that really helped. Not holding my breath for it to happen again, especially with the possible cold, but it's very reassuring to know that we still have a good "normal" to go back to.


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## Smile181c

can i join pretty please? i'm so tired...:sleep:


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## Noelle610

Smile181c said:


> can i join pretty please? i'm so tired...:sleep:

Of course! Come on in :wave:

Oh, and sorry you are here.


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## VikkiD

Daniel didnt sleep very well last night he started getting restless at 10:45 an wouldn't settle till I fed him at 12:40 up again moaning at 4:40 moaning on an off till 6 I think I might need to try a little earlier bedtime


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## cmarie33

We had a better night last night :) M went to be at 8, woke at 11 so I fed her then didn't hear a peep til 6.30! Big improvement on the 4-5 wakings! :)


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## NotNic

Well I think having a weekend off from having me hover over him may have made some small changes. The last three mornings have been later wake ups - after 6.30am and we can leave him to play until closer to 7am. He is attempting two naps. And we have had two STTNs. It has been a good few weeks since we had one of those. :happydance:


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## charlie15

Can I just ask is there a limit that you give to your LO's nap length? The naps at home in Sophia's cot are going really well in the mornings, so thank you so much for the great advice to get going with that. She is now napping relatively easily for her morning nap 2 hours after waking. Yesterday at 1 and a half hours I went in and turned the white noise down and opened the black out blinds to encourage her to wake up. Is that about the right maximum time for a nap or longer? The naps during the rest of the day are still hit and miss still but I'm happy to focus on getting the morning nap a regular habit for the moment.


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## Noelle610

Charlotte slept great last night! Thought we were in for a terrible night. She had a hard time falling asleep... She "understands" now that if she throws her blakey and paci out of the crib and screams that mommy will come rescue her and she thinks it's hilarious. So we did that routine for 30 minutes. THEN she was up after just 30 minutes crying! I gave her her pacifier and she went straight back to sleep. And then proceeded to sleep the rest of the night until 6am. 

Except my husband left for Vegas on business today and woke me at 4am, ugh!


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## Smile181c

max went down at 7, was awake by the time i got home from work at about 8 ish then didnt go back down til 9. woke up several times in the evening, then slept in our bed. woke at 1.30 for a feed and 5.45 then slept on my chest til 8.30ish "/


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## bananaz

charlie15 said:


> Can I just ask is there a limit that you give to your LO's nap length? The naps at home in Sophia's cot are going really well in the mornings, so thank you so much for the great advice to get going with that. She is now napping relatively easily for her morning nap 2 hours after waking. Yesterday at 1 and a half hours I went in and turned the white noise down and opened the black out blinds to encourage her to wake up. Is that about the right maximum time for a nap or longer? The naps during the rest of the day are still hit and miss still but I'm happy to focus on getting the morning nap a regular habit for the moment.

Glad to hear things are improving! The morning nap does tend to stabilize first, or at least it did for my LO. About waking from naps, the guideline I've heard is to limit each nap to 2 hours and then aim for no more than 3.5-4 hours total sleep during the day at that age. Noelle might be able to give you more info, I've sadly never had the problem of a baby napping too long :haha:


----------



## bananaz

*Noelle* - Haha, well I'm sorry she gave you trouble at the beginning of the night but yay for sleeping through! Elsie also throws her stuff out of the crib but thankfully she does it when she gets up instead of at bedtime, that would drive me crazy.

*Smile* - :hugs: That's really tough. How do you put him to sleep? And how do you respond when he wakes?


Things are pretty good here. She has been going down peacefully for her naps again now that I've started opening the blackout curtain a bit and rotating the stuffed animals she has in her crib. Can I just say how amazing it is to be able to set my baby down and walk away knowing that she's going to be asleep within 5-10 minutes?? It still feels like a miracle every time! :happydance:

The past couple nights she's slept straight through from 7:30pm-5:15am (OMG awesome!), so now I'm keeping my fingers crossed that she'll start sleeping a little later because her normal wakeup time has been 6-6:30am and she needs the extra sleep. I know that even if I gave in and fed her at 5:15 she would still want to be up for the day so my only hope at this point is for her to stop waking at that time. I'm starting to actually feel rested now though. Hopefully it lasts!


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## Noelle610

Bananaz GREAT news!


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## seaweed eater

Bananaz, that is awesome!! :thumbup: So glad to hear it! Glad some other babies had good nights last night too. So did we! :happydance:

I have a question though. What do you guys do when LO fights naps? Keep trying? for how long? -- or get them up? And then try again when they show sleepy cues or after, say, 15 minutes? Would you ever take LO in the car (if yours falls asleep there too) in this situation?

LO seems to really want longer wake times now but he can't consistently sleep longer than 30-35 minutes, even for his first nap, and the past week has taught me that he still really needs the extra rest...I could take him in the car, but I want him to nap in his crib in case he wants to sleep for longer. I'm never sure what to do about this.

Here's what I usually do: I try initially for about half an hour, then leave him in his crib for about 10 minutes if he's happy there. If he fusses, that means he's tired and I try nursing again, but if he's just kicking and babbling, then I take him out, play for 15-20 mins or until the first sleepy sign, then try again.

Does that seem reasonable? It doesn't always work well. This morning it took nearly 2 hours from the start of the routine until he was asleep. I started trying at 2.5 hr WT, about half an hour before he usually goes down. We have a routine, use white noise, room is dark, etc.


----------



## Noelle610

bananaz said:


> charlie15 said:
> 
> 
> Can I just ask is there a limit that you give to your LO's nap length? The naps at home in Sophia's cot are going really well in the mornings, so thank you so much for the great advice to get going with that. She is now napping relatively easily for her morning nap 2 hours after waking. Yesterday at 1 and a half hours I went in and turned the white noise down and opened the black out blinds to encourage her to wake up. Is that about the right maximum time for a nap or longer? The naps during the rest of the day are still hit and miss still but I'm happy to focus on getting the morning nap a regular habit for the moment.
> 
> Glad to hear things are improving! The morning nap does tend to stabilize first, or at least it did for my LO. About waking from naps, the guideline I've heard is to limit each nap to 2 hours and then aim for no more than 3.5-4 hours total sleep during the day at that age. Noelle might be able to give you more info, I've sadly never had the problem of a baby napping too long :haha:Click to expand...

Yes, morning nap does stabilize first for most babies :) I think 4 hours is a good cap at that age. Anything more and you're cutting into night sleep and risking possible day/night confusion.


----------



## Noelle610

seaweed eater said:


> Bananaz, that is awesome!! :thumbup: So glad to hear it! Glad some other babies had good nights last night too. So did we! :happydance:
> 
> I have a question though. What do you guys do when LO fights naps? Keep trying? for how long? -- or get them up? And then try again when they show sleepy cues or after, say, 15 minutes? Would you ever take LO in the car (if yours falls asleep there too) in this situation?
> 
> LO seems to really want longer wake times now but he can't consistently sleep longer than 30-35 minutes, even for his first nap, and the past week has taught me that he still really needs the extra rest...I could take him in the car, but I want him to nap in his crib in case he wants to sleep for longer. I'm never sure what to do about this.
> 
> Here's what I usually do: I try initially for about half an hour, then leave him in his crib for about 10 minutes if he's happy there. If he fusses, that means he's tired and I try nursing again, but if he's just kicking and babbling, then I take him out, play for 15-20 mins or until the first sleepy sign, then try again.
> 
> Does that seem reasonable? It doesn't always work well. This morning it took nearly 2 hours from the start of the routine until he was asleep. I started trying at 2.5 hr WT, about half an hour before he usually goes down. We have a routine, use white noise, room is dark, etc.

I usually try for about 30 minutes. If the nap isn't happening, I get her up and try again either when she seems tired or in 30 minutes (whichever comes first). I used to put her in the swing if nothing else was working, but now that she's older that doesn't work. 

If he seems to want longer wake times, I'd go ahead and lengthen them - that should actually help his naps get longer. It may take a week before it's effective. If you're having a lot of nap refusals, you likely have to adjust your wake times somewhat.


----------



## polaris

Hi everyone.
Glad to hear of some good nights! 

Noelle, that game of throwing stuff out of the cot gets old really quickly doesn't it? I do remember going through that with Thomas but I can't really remember how long it lasted, I think he did just get bored of it eventually. Yay for a good night afterwards though, despite the amount of teeth she's getting at the moment.

Bananaz - yay for sleeping through! Fingers crossed she will start sleeping a bit longer as she gets used to it. I really think there's such a huge psychological difference when the time starts with a 6 compared to when it starts with a 5! I can handle 6 a.m. but anything before that just feels too early.

Charlie - I limit Clara's naps to two hours each at the moment. This is something that changes with time though - with DS I had to progressively limit his morning nap to enable him to take a proper afternoon nap. 

Seaweed - believe it or not Clara hasn't actually refused a nap since I got her onto a proper napping schedule (except when I tried to get her to take a third catnap). But sometimes it does take a while, usually if my timing is a bit off - I would probably keep trying for about half an hour or thereabouts. The main problem that I have had with Clara is not being able to tell whether she is under-tired or over-tired. I thought for ages that she was under-tired and that was why I kept getting short naps and difficulty falling asleep but actually she was over-tired and shortening her wake times worked for us. The wake times that I am currently trying are 2 hours before first nap, 2.5 hours before second nap, and 2.75-3 hours before bedtime. I am bringing her up about ten minutes before that for a quick feed and to settle her. It worked really well today - but tomorrow will probably be a disaster LOL, it's all still a work in progress!

Clara had two naps of two hours today and it was the first time she didn't seem a little overtired going to bed, she had a slightly later bedtime of 6.45 p.m. as well, whereas she has been going to bed at 6 recently. So I am hoping that she is beginning to catch up on her sleep debt and is less chronically over-tired - we will see how tonight goes!


----------



## Shadowy Lady

ughhhh after 2 nights of sttn (7pm to 7:30 am), last night Sofia was up from 3:30 to 4:30 am again! She's on her tummy tossing her head from left to right, her eyes closed, and trying to bring her knees up under her tummy and whining. 

Honestly, this is getting sooo weird! what we did last night was to turn on her sleep sheep which distracted her enough from trying to go on all four and put her to sleep. It's so odd that it's not even every night, but it doesn't seem to go away.

Of course since she was up for so long in the middle of the night, she's crankier during the day, I'm feeling pretty sleep deprived and missed my morning workout :(


----------



## Smile181c

bananaz said:


> *Smile* - :hugs: That's really tough. How do you put him to sleep? And how do you respond when he wakes?

Well he's never been a self soother, he's always been rocked or held to sleep. Our routine at the moment is bath, come downstairs, bottle and then he'll drift off on either myself or DF (mainly me though). Once he's asleep I'll take him upstairs and put him in his cot. If he wakes up I usually go straight to him. Depending on the time I either feed him (He dreamfeeds at around 10.30 and then wakes between 2-3 for another bottle) or he's wide awake and I take him out and attempt to resettle him x


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## bananaz

Smile181c said:


> Well he's never been a self soother, he's always been rocked or held to sleep. Our routine at the moment is bath, come downstairs, bottle and then he'll drift off on either myself or DF (mainly me though). Once he's asleep I'll take him upstairs and put him in his cot. If he wakes up I usually go straight to him. Depending on the time I either feed him (He dreamfeeds at around 10.30 and then wakes between 2-3 for another bottle) or he's wide awake and I take him out and attempt to resettle him x

Have you recently tried to get him to settle in the cot, maybe with you rubbing or patting his back? Or rock him in your arms until he's almost asleep and then put him down and pat him? I know it's hard but if he can learn to go to sleep in his cot at the beginning of the night he may be able to go back to sleep on his own when he rouses later, and it will also be less of a shock for him to wake up in his bed. My LO was also not a self-soother at all so I used to always nurse her to sleep but at around 6-7 months I started being able to get her to go to sleep in her crib at night, first by putting her down half-asleep on her belly and patting her back until she dropped off, and then I slowly worked up to being able to put her down totally awake. They change really quickly when they're this little so you have to keep trying things because you never know when it's going to work!

Also, have you ever tried waiting a couple minutes when he stirs at night? Or does he become hysterical quickly if you don't get him?


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## Noelle610

I'm so frustrated right now! I put Charlotte down 40 minutes ago and she's still awake. This was never a problem for us until recently - she's always gone to sleep so easily at bedtime. 

I'm wondering if it's developmental or if she needs a schedule change. She's awake about 4 hours between her last nap and bedtime and that seems to be at the upper limit of what experts recommend. Still, she seems "under tired". Maybe I should try a later bedtime tomorrow? 

I just hate the fighting bedtime because it makes me question if I'm doing things "right" and if I'm being honest it also cuts into my alone time because I can't relax.


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## bananaz

Noelle610 said:


> I'm so frustrated right now! I put Charlotte down 40 minutes ago and she's still awake. This was never a problem for us until recently - she's always gone to sleep so easily at bedtime.
> 
> I'm wondering if it's developmental or if she needs a schedule change. She's awake about 4 hours between her last nap and bedtime and that seems to be at the upper limit of what experts recommend. Still, she seems "under tired". Maybe I should try a later bedtime tomorrow?
> 
> I just hate the fighting bedtime because it makes me question if I'm doing things "right" and if I'm being honest it also cuts into my alone time because I can't relax.

Sorry, that's so frustrating :( Is she just hanging out happily or is she protesting?

FWIW, Elsie's optimal wake time seems to be closer to 4.5 hours these days, though she's usually only up for 2-3 hours before bed (but that's never been an issue for her for whatever reason).


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## Noelle610

bananaz said:


> Noelle610 said:
> 
> 
> I'm so frustrated right now! I put Charlotte down 40 minutes ago and she's still awake. This was never a problem for us until recently - she's always gone to sleep so easily at bedtime.
> 
> I'm wondering if it's developmental or if she needs a schedule change. She's awake about 4 hours between her last nap and bedtime and that seems to be at the upper limit of what experts recommend. Still, she seems "under tired". Maybe I should try a later bedtime tomorrow?
> 
> I just hate the fighting bedtime because it makes me question if I'm doing things "right" and if I'm being honest it also cuts into my alone time because I can't relax.
> 
> Sorry, that's so frustrating :( Is she just hanging out happily or is she protesting?
> 
> FWIW, Elsie's optimal wake time seems to be closer to 4.5 hours these days, though she's usually only up for 2-3 hours before bed (but that's never been an issue for her for whatever reason).Click to expand...

She seems happy! She's not acting like she does when she's overtired - screaming and fussing. She's just playing. Maybe I'll try a 4.5 hour wake time before bed and see what happens. It's just confusing, when you think you've got it they change it up on you!


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## socitycourty

Hadley's sleep is still so bad, I think due to her teeth. also had a cold (which I caught, yay!) so she is stuffy and burbling on snot when she lays down....had her in the bed with us past 2 nights, i'm just too tired to fight it. when she is well or when her teeth come through I need to sleep train.

my question is, is it even worth it because it seems like she'll be getting a lot of teeth in the upcoming months (looking at the teething diagram) so won't I have to retrain every time this happens?

she's been drooly (like 100x more than usual) biting, etc and I think I can see the white spots but nothing poking thru yet.


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## bananaz

socitycourty said:


> Hadley's sleep is still so bad, I think due to her teeth. also had a cold (which I caught, yay!) so she is stuffy and burbling on snot when she lays down....had her in the bed with us past 2 nights, i'm just too tired to fight it. when she is well or when her teeth come through I need to sleep train.
> 
> my question is, is it even worth it because it seems like she'll be getting a lot of teeth in the upcoming months (looking at the teething diagram) so won't I have to retrain every time this happens?
> 
> she's been drooly (like 100x more than usual) biting, etc and I think I can see the white spots but nothing poking thru yet.

I was also trying to wait until Elsie wasn't sick or teething or going through any major developmental leaps before messing with her schedule but eventually I realized that that perfect time wasn't going to happen and I just had to go for it. Like you said, teething is going to kind of be a constant for a while and if your LO's current sleep pattern isn't sustainable then you may as well change it sooner rather than later.

I don't know how you feel about medication but have you tried giving Hadley ibuprofen? It's the only thing that really seems to help my LO with teething pain at night.


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## socitycourty

i have used ibuprofen before when she cut her first 2.....i gave it to her a few days last week as she was really grumpy and chewing everything. think i'll give her some tonight and see if it helps her get rest. 

tylenol does nothing for her, of course ibuprofen is like twice as pricey LOL! oh well. i guess you're right too about the "perfect" time, it won't happen.


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## MiniKiwi

Noelle, Mia does 4.5 hours from her last nap until her 7pm bed time and we haven't had those early evening wakings for a while now. I'd give her another half hour of wake time and see how she goes.

Bananaz, so happy to see that things are going well for you. I know *exactly* how you feel when she self settles - it truly does feel like a miracle lmao. 

Socity - I'm sorry you're still having such a rough time :hugs: I agree with bananaz though - there never seems to be a right time to sleep train as there's always something new going on. All I can say is that it's been worth it in my experience, I did wait until her recent teeth had come through and then started gently sleep training Mia. It has honestly done wonders and I never had any guilt or bad feelings over it which was very important to me - if you're interested in what I did, I'd be more than happy to explain it to you. In the mean time, I hope you get some rest :hugs:

I haven't popped in this thread for ages because... Mia sleeps! :happydance: She's doing 7pm-4am most nights and back to sleep til 6 or 7, with the occasional rough night or short motn party but still, huge progress and I'm happy with that anyway. She's also self settling for some naps and some bedtimes now :D


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## seaweed eater

Socity, sorry about the teeth and the cold, that's a bad double whammy. Hope the teeth come in soon and you all feel better :hugs:

Noelle, I'm sure you know a trillion times more than I do about this, but could she possibly need 1 nap yet? I thought that happened around 13 months, and you said she was relatively early to switch to 2?

Thanks for your advice about letting Munchkin have longer wake times and waiting for the consolidation to follow that. It makes me nervous to let him nap so little, because his sleep was so much better this past week when he wasn't overtired. But we'll see how tonight goes...he had two naps and they were both pretty short. Also the first night in the crib without the bassinet mattress.

I just hope the darn movement sensor doesn't go off. We've had one of those every night he's been in the crib so far. Has anyone stopped using theirs? I wonder at what age I'll feel comfortable enough.


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## seaweed eater

MiniKiwi, I'd love to know what you did with Mia in the way of gentle sleep training. And also what you'd tried, if anything, before whatever worked so well. :thumbup:


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## gaiagirl

Noelle I was just coming on here to complain about bedtime! Three nights in a row now my LO has been impossible to put down.

He's getting his first tooth, I can feel it on the bottom so I'm HOPING this is what's going on. But putting him down for naps today wasn't difficult and as soon as 7:30 rolls around...all bets are off and he wants to just hang out on my boob. 

He was up for 3 hours before bed, which I know is a bit long for his age but we have been doing that for awhile and it's been going fine!


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## gaiagirl

Hey Seaweed! Hope his first night in just the crib goes ok!!!!!!


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## seaweed eater

Thanks Gaia! I'm going to regret this later but I have to be honest, I'm jealous that you can actually feel F's tooth already :p I'm really hoping I can attribute all the dirty diapers here to teething but I'm just not sure yet!

I'm sorry about the bedtimes. I hope he sleeps well during the night. :hugs: Happy 5 months!


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## gaiagirl

Thanks! I was relieved to feel it but he's still not quite himself so we aren't out of the woods.

I'm pretty at peace with our nights after my bedtime right now. He still wakes frequently to nurse but it's so momentary that I've been waking up feeling really rested. Last night from 10-7 I didn't even sit up once, which is our 'good night' these days!


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## MiniKiwi

Tbh, I hadn't tried anything before. I walked/rocked/bounced her to sleep from an early age, for a few months between 4-7 months she needed hours of rocking a day :coffee: Between 8 and 10 months, she went to bed at 6pm and would wake every 30-90 minutes until 10 or 11pm (Noelle reckoned this was cause she was going to bed too early so we switched to 7pm bedtime which definitely helped some) and she'd wake up between 11 and 2 am and stay awake for 1-3 hours - she did that for about 2 months lol!!!! When she woke hourly or less one night, I decided enough was enough.

I bathed her, let her do her usual crawl around and play for an hour, gave her a bottle and put her in her cot. I just put one hand on her tummy, one on her head and stroked her hair and shhhed loudly when she cried and quietly when she was quiet. She was asleep in 15 minutes and cried a not too upset cry, on and off for 10 ish mins. The second night she cried for 3 minutes and no crying the third night. I've just been doing the same thing since, it doesn't always work straight away (if she's squealing and chatting it won't work) so I just walk away for a bit and on occasion she will self settle and if not, I go back in when she cries and shh and stroke her head and she nods off. She no longer wakes in the early night time and it's been 1-2 wakings since then and only a few, short motn parties :)


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## seaweed eater

Wow that's amazing! You must have been pleased that it worked so well for her!


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## polaris

Noelle, sorry you are having problems at bedtime. Has it been going on for a few days? What is Charlotte's napping schedule roughly at the moment? With Thomas, when he needed extra wake-time at that age I tended to try and move/shorten naps rather than moving bedtime later because I liked him going to bed early.

We had a dreadful night again last night. She just kept waking up all the time. I think it could just be developmental though because she is really working hard on crawling. So tired again this morning! Am wondering now if she had too much day time sleep yesterday! So hard to get it right with these babies and I'm brutal for over-analysing everything!


----------



## Smile181c

bananaz said:


> Have you recently tried to get him to settle in the cot, maybe with you rubbing or patting his back? Or rock him in your arms until he's almost asleep and then put him down and pat him? I know it's hard but if he can learn to go to sleep in his cot at the beginning of the night he may be able to go back to sleep on his own when he rouses later, and it will also be less of a shock for him to wake up in his bed. My LO was also not a self-soother at all so I used to always nurse her to sleep but at around 6-7 months I started being able to get her to go to sleep in her crib at night, first by putting her down half-asleep on her belly and patting her back until she dropped off, and then I slowly worked up to being able to put her down totally awake. They change really quickly when they're this little so you have to keep trying things because you never know when it's going to work!
> 
> Also, have you ever tried waiting a couple minutes when he stirs at night? Or does he become hysterical quickly if you don't get him?

I have tried putting him down tired but awake but he wakes himself up by crying when i leave and i don't have the heart to let him CIO. i will try again tonight though as ive never laid him on his front in the cot before - is it safe? He does work himself up if i don't go in quickly but then thats what he's used to so maybe i should wait it out a little longer. thank you for the advice :)

*********

WRT to night feeds, is it normal for him to have them at this age? last night he woke at 10.30, 12.30 and 4 and drank 5oz each time!


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## Noelle610

Hey girls. The bedtime thing has been going on on and off for quite some time. Here was our schedule yesterday, which is typcial:

6am wake

8:45am-9:30am nap 1

1:30pm-3:00pm nap 2

6:45 pm - attempt bedtime

7:30pm - finally asleep

She's also been waking up earlier and earlier. Today it was 5:45am. It used to be between 6:30am and 7am. I think her sleep needs might be changing. When she woke, she was happy and seemed well rested (and had slept through the night). 

Is starting the one nap transition the answer here? Maybe a later bedtime?


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## Shadowy Lady

Minikiwi - I'm so glad that Mia's sleeping more or less ok. I think not seeing someone on this thread is usually a good sign :)

Socity - Honestly, there's never a good time if you have a baby. They're always going through something. I think I've said it before but both you and Hadley would benefit from some sleep training. But I think you should be consistent and have help. It won't work if you do it for a day and change method.

Polaris - so sorry your nights haven't improved. We need Sofia and Clara to start crawling already so they won't do it in their sleep.

Noelle - can you start her bedtime routine 15 mins later perhaps? Maybe aim to have her asleep by 8 pm in a few days but start slow? 

Sofia sttn last night (7pm to 7:30 am) and I expected her to. My weird baby sttn one night and then has a motn party the next night :/ I think it's pointless to update for me at this point as this seems to be a waiting game for us. I however am back to sleeping terribly as my body is confused about when it can sleep coz of Sofia's up and down every other night schedule. 

Oh *Noelle*, I talked to my doc and she thinks I shouldn't be on sleep meds. She said 1/2 Ativan twice a week is not something that's really helping me sleep so I probably should quit cold turkey (or replace with Melatonin)...I don't know. I think I'm still gonna wean myself off gradually until Sofia's sleep is more settled.


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## Noelle610

I talked to a friend of mine who knows a lot about sleep and she's telling me to reduce the last wake time!! I'm confused, blah.

Shadowy Lady really hope you get some sleep yourself! Trust your doc!


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## bananaz

Noelle610 said:


> Hey girls. The bedtime thing has been going on on and off for quite some time. Here was our schedule yesterday, which is typcial:
> 
> 6am wake
> 
> 8:45am-9:30am nap 1
> 
> 1:30pm-3:00pm nap 2
> 
> 6:45 pm - attempt bedtime
> 
> 7:30pm - finally asleep
> 
> She's also been waking up earlier and earlier. Today it was 5:45am. It used to be between 6:30am and 7am. I think her sleep needs might be changing. When she woke, she was happy and seemed well rested (and had slept through the night).
> 
> Is starting the one nap transition the answer here? Maybe a later bedtime?

I would say a later bedtime. Elsie used to also go to bed at 6:30pm but that moved to 7:30pm with the time change and she hasn't needed to have it pushed earlier again. The fact that it's staying light out later now could be messing with Charlotte's circadian rhythms.


----------



## Noelle610

bananaz said:


> Noelle610 said:
> 
> 
> Hey girls. The bedtime thing has been going on on and off for quite some time. Here was our schedule yesterday, which is typcial:
> 
> 6am wake
> 
> 8:45am-9:30am nap 1
> 
> 1:30pm-3:00pm nap 2
> 
> 6:45 pm - attempt bedtime
> 
> 7:30pm - finally asleep
> 
> She's also been waking up earlier and earlier. Today it was 5:45am. It used to be between 6:30am and 7am. I think her sleep needs might be changing. When she woke, she was happy and seemed well rested (and had slept through the night).
> 
> Is starting the one nap transition the answer here? Maybe a later bedtime?
> 
> I would say a later bedtime. Elsie used to also go to bed at 6:30pm but that moved to 7:30pm with the time change and she hasn't needed to have it pushed earlier again. The fact that it's staying light out later now could be messing with Charlotte's circadian rhythms.Click to expand...

That's exactly what I was thinking! We're on the same page.

Ideally I could just shift all of her naps foward a bit, but since she's on the daycare schedule that's hard.


----------



## polaris

Hi Noelle, 
if she's waking early but seems well-rested and doesn't crash after a very short wake time then I would say maybe later bedtime rather than earlier bedtime. I know what your friend is talking about though, Thomas went through a phase of bedtime battles and early wakings and he actually did need an earlier bedtime. But he was waking early due to being overtired and he didn't seem well rested and wanted a very early nap. So a bit different from what you are describing. I would probably try putting her to bed at 7.30 if that's when she's actually falling asleep. Personally I wouldn't want to cut her naps any further at this age but I'm basing it on Thomas and he always had high sleep needs and needed extremely gradual nap transitions.


----------



## bananaz

*MiniKiwi* - I'm *so* glad to see you back and that Mia has been sleeping so well! I was hoping that was why you disappeared. It's great that you found a method that was gentle and effective, I know that the gentle part was really important to you.

*Shadowy* - Yay for STTN, but I'm sorry to hear your sleep is messed up again. Have you ever had your hormones checked? I know mine were way out of whack after my LO's birth and they didn't really restabilize on their own, and that can interfere with sleep. Now I take progesterone before bed and it's helped quite a bit.


----------



## bananaz

Smile181c said:


> I have tried putting him down tired but awake but he wakes himself up by crying when i leave and i don't have the heart to let him CIO. i will try again tonight though as ive never laid him on his front in the cot before - is it safe? He does work himself up if i don't go in quickly but then thats what he's used to so maybe i should wait it out a little longer. thank you for the advice :)
> 
> *********
> 
> WRT to night feeds, is it normal for him to have them at this age? last night he woke at 10.30, 12.30 and 4 and drank 5oz each time!


At 7 months old it should be fine to put him on his belly. The general guideline is that once they can roll there themselves it's okay. You might try putting him down tired but awake and then staying in with him until he drops into a deep sleep, maybe just resting a hand on his back or patting him if he protests. It will probably take 15-20 minutes but at least that way he'll fall asleep in his crib and he won't be disturbed when you sneak out.

Many babies still have night feeds at that age but you can encourage him to drop them by gradually reducing the amount you offer, or by giving him water instead. Then hopefully he'll get used to taking in those calories during the day instead and stop expecting them at night.


----------



## Noelle610

bananaz said:


> *Shadowy* - Yay for STTN, but I'm sorry to hear your sleep is messed up again. Have you ever had your hormones checked? I know mine were way out of whack after my LO's birth and they didn't really restabilize on their own, and that can interfere with sleep. Now I take progesterone before bed and it's helped quite a bit.

Yes, this! The difficulty sleep can be hormonal. It's often treated with birth control.

In addition, you may want to have your thyroid checked. Many women struggle with their thyroid postpartum and it goes undiagnosed. Here's some info:

https://www.thyroid.org/postpartum-thyroiditis/


----------



## VikkiD

Lo slept well last night he's teething at the min he was up at 1:40 didn't want a feed but wanted some calpol. Then slept till 6:15 I did hear a bit off moaning from him but not enough to get me out of bed lol. Not sure how he's going to sleep tonight as his cheeks are burning with his teeth an he's hardly drank any milk today but as ate he's only took 3oz from his bedtime bottle.


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## polaris

We ended up with three naps today because her afternoon nap was interrupted after 20 minutes by a poo! I had to take her out for an emergency walk in the pram in the pouring rain because there was no way she would have made it till bedtime. She went to sleep perfectly at 6.30 but I can hear her starting to wake up now, right on cue at 45 minutes later! Don't know how to get rid of these 45 minute wake-ups. :-(


----------



## gaiagirl

Polaris if you figure that out let me know! Lol


----------



## seaweed eater

I'm new to the thread and don't know what you've tried already, Polaris, so sorry if this is not helpful -- but have you tried wake to sleep? Didn't work at all for us, but a lot of people seem to like it for extending naps. And nothing could be gentler!


----------



## Smile181c

I managed to get Max to settle in his cot tonight without me holding him! I 'camped out' next to his cot with my hand on his tummy until he gave in. There was lots of crying but we both survived and he is now sound asleep :cloud9:


----------



## Shadowy Lady

Bananaz and Noelle - thanks guys. I'm supposed to check back with my doctor in 2 weeks time so I will ask about the hormonal issue. I just hate to be on stupid Ativan even if it's 1/2 pill or so per week. My doctor says the Ativan is not what's putting me to sleep it's just all in my head. But I want to be checked for hormonal imbalance now too.


----------



## Boo44

Noelle I would definitely try a later bed time. Jack has a last nap to bed wake time of 4.5 hrs sometimes more. I did try less but it didn't affect his early waking in fact sometimes made it worse! But later bed times work for us. Also the clock change has touch wood helped with his early mornings too

We've had 3 bad nights as his cough is awful on a night :-( He usually sleeps through the coughing which starts up at 4ish for an hour. But last night he started coughing at 2am and was back-to-back coughing and difficult breathing inbetween :( I actually woke him up to get him out of bed and try to stop the coughing it was scary! Have taken him to dr today and his chest/throat/ears are all clear. So that's good and I guess it's just a virus we'll have to wait out!


----------



## polaris

seaweed eater said:


> I'm new to the thread and don't know what you've tried already, Polaris, so sorry if this is not helpful -- but have you tried wake to sleep? Didn't work at all for us, but a lot of people seem to like it for extending naps. And nothing could be gentler!

Hmmm, I actually hadn't thought of that at all. Might give it a try, it can't really hurt I don't think. If I didn't have my three year old to look after I would also definitely try going in just before 45 mins and putting my hand on her back to just get her through the sleep cycle - but it's really hard to manage a lot of stuff when I have the two of them to look after. OH is working five evenings next week, I am actually dreading it, I really hope Clara is a bit more settled next week because this week would have just been a total nightmare on my own. My three year old is also in nap transition hell at the moment (getting ready to drop nap but still can't manage without it) so he's not falling asleep until 9 or 10 p.m. most nights and if I'm up and down all evening with Clara it is just a nightmare!


----------



## NotNic

Noelle - we're another fan of the later bedtime. TBH we've always done it because it allowed OH to see him as he's normally home around 6.45pm and then he can be involved in his routine. Also it means that I'll get close to two hours a day with him when I go back to work next month. Our routine is something like this:

Wake - 6am (though we've had a few sneaky 6.30ams this week)
Nap 1 - 10.30 for 90/120 mins (fingers crossed!)
Nap 2 - 3pm for 45-60 mins (when we are having a 2 nap day)
Bath - 7pm
Milk - 7.30pm followed by gentle play if he's a bit hyper. (I take all the toys away apart from a book or a teddy and let him crawl around for 10 mins)
Bed - 7.45/8pm to be asleep for 8/8.15pm

So apart from the gap between lunch we go 4.5hrs. As you know though, two naps days are quite rare, so I am planning on persevering with a shorter nap in the morning followed by a longer nap after lunch. This has worked a few times, but I've realised that for this to be more successful we need to try to delay nap until closer to 11am, so to have him awake for lunch, and for him then to be tired enough to successfully sleep through two sleep cycles in the afternoon (2-4pm roughly). This way we are still sticking to roughly the same waking up times - it's just the going down times which change.

Also looking at your routine, would it be worth trying to delay the morning nap?


----------



## NotNic

Boo is Jack snotty at the moment? Finlay has some disgusting snail trails at the moment and it's given him a cough at night. I think it's all the gunk trickling down his throat. We have him on a slightly plumper pillow when he's like this. We put it underneath the bottom sheet so it stays in place.


----------



## Noelle610

I actually think it would REALLY help to delay the morning nap. But she's a daycare baby and I hate making requests of them since they are amazing. Maybe I should ask though, can't hurt.


----------



## NotNic

I definitely think it would be worth a try. Then at least she might actually have a better quality of nap when it is time to sleep, and she will feel more ready to go to bed when it is time iykwim. I wouldn't worry about asking. Potentially she may start wanting to go to one nap soon as she might not be tired enough to need a second one, and they would have to adapt to that. Nudging that first nap back could protect the second nap.


----------



## Boo44

NotNic said:


> Boo is Jack snotty at the moment? Finlay has some disgusting snail trails at the moment and it's given him a cough at night. I think it's all the gunk trickling down his throat. We have him on a slightly plumper pillow when he's like this. We put it underneath the bottom sheet so it stays in place.

Yes he has green snot as of last night/today so that's obv what has led to his cough. He's a wheezy baby when he coughs though. He can't just have a 'normal' cough and then get better, it always leads to a few days of a wheezy chest :( We've put rolled up blankets under the head of his mattress to raise it a bit. He's a bit of a log at night and sleeps in one position on his back all night! So raising his mattress always results in a baby lying on a wonk with his head against the side of the cot lol. I've never experienced a mobile night sleeper!

By the way - how does pushing the am nap later help the pm nap? I would've thought having a later morning nap would make them less tired in the pm?!


----------



## NotNic

My theory is (bear with me), is that by not burning off enough energy before that first nap, they actually top up the amount of sleep they have had from the night time sleep. There isn't an obvious gap between the two sleeps so they merge in and then they are undertired when it's time to nap later. That's when they begin to fight having a second nap because they haven't burnt off enough energy and get very angry that they are going down too soon. This very quickly becomes overtired as the afternoon shift becomes too long for them to manage until bedtime. This is what was happening with Finlay. He was doing 6am wake up and 9.30am nap. We then would battle to convince him to sleep in the afternoon. Sometimes he would pass out exhausted at 5pm, which actually didn't make a difference to his bedtime, but it made for a dodgy 3-5pm period where we would have a lot of sleep cues, but a hyper then later grizzly baby. Also I've noticed that by eeking out an extra 30 mins before his first nap he is waking 30 mins later the next day. Could be a coincidence but I'm going with it! :)


----------



## Noelle610

NotNic said:


> My theory is (bear with me), is that by not burning off enough energy before that first nap, they actually top up the amount of sleep they have had from the night time sleep. There isn't an obvious gap between the two sleeps so they merge in and then they are undertired when it's time to nap later. That's when they begin to fight having a second nap because they haven't burnt off enough energy and get very angry that they are going down too soon. This very quickly becomes overtired as the afternoon shift becomes too long for them to manage until bedtime. This is what was happening with Finlay. He was doing 6am wake up and 9.30am nap. We then would battle to convince him to sleep in the afternoon. Sometimes he would pass out exhausted at 5pm, which actually didn't make a difference to his bedtime, but it made for a dodgy 3-5pm period where we would have a lot of sleep cues, but a hyper then later grizzly baby. Also I've noticed that by eeking out an extra 30 mins before his first nap he is waking 30 mins later the next day. Could be a coincidence but I'm going with it! :)

Makes so much sense!


----------



## NotNic

I'm glad. In my head it made sense, but trying to figure out how to explain it in writing was getting me in a muddle! :haha:


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## Boo44

Wow good thinking! And yes people do say that making the first nap later is one possible way to help with early wakings! Didn't make difference for Jack unfortunately lol


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## socitycourty

MiniKiwi....I'd love to hear how you did gentle sleep training. Just don't think I can follow thru with CIO and not sure what else I can do. She uses a pacifier at night sometimes and for naps, sometimes i have to rock, other times just hold her.....don't really have a routine as such.she also takes at least 1-2 bottles at night and I'm confused if she really needs or not

thank you :hugs:


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## seaweed eater

This nap stuff is really challenging my inner control freak! I was happy to feel like I knew what was going on before. Now I never know what kind of wake time I'm going to get. Oh well!


----------



## MiniKiwi

MiniKiwi said:


> Tbh, I hadn't tried anything before. I walked/rocked/bounced her to sleep from an early age, for a few months between 4-7 months she needed hours of rocking a day :coffee: Between 8 and 10 months, she went to bed at 6pm and would wake every 30-90 minutes until 10 or 11pm (Noelle reckoned this was cause she was going to bed too early so we switched to 7pm bedtime which definitely helped some) and she'd wake up between 11 and 2 am and stay awake for 1-3 hours - she did that for about 2 months lol!!!! When she woke hourly or less one night, I decided enough was enough.
> 
> I bathed her, let her do her usual crawl around and play for an hour, gave her a bottle and put her in her cot. I just put one hand on her tummy, one on her head and stroked her hair and shhhed loudly when she cried and quietly when she was quiet. She was asleep in 15 minutes and cried a not too upset cry, on and off for 10 ish mins. The second night she cried for 3 minutes and no crying the third night. I've just been doing the same thing since, it doesn't always work straight away (if she's squealing and chatting it won't work) so I just walk away for a bit and on occasion she will self settle and if not, I go back in when she cries and shh and stroke her head and she nods off. She no longer wakes in the early night time and it's been 1-2 wakings since then and only a few, short motn parties :)

Just quoted my post a few pages back for you, Socity. It was really this simple but I don't want to get your hopes up, I think Mia was ready and that I was doing a few things 'wrong' for her which prevented her from sleeping well (too early bedtime & walking her to sleep).

I'd often feed her in the night cause I didn't know what else to do with her... I didn't know why she'd wake so often for no reason so yeah, I wanted to make sure she wasn't hungry. She's waking at around 4/5am these days and I'm sure she's hungry then as she licks her lips when she sees the milk (it's so cute :cloud9:) Maybe if you try what I did, you might have some success and won't have to even think about feeding in the night anymore? Idk, I don't want to be pushy or anything but this worked for us, relatively quickly and LO is much happier (and so am I!) She doesn't sleep perfectly now but it's a huge improvement. I do think moving her bedtime later really helped too, she goes to bed at 7pm now. She also goes to bed with a soother, but we only use it for nap and bedtimes and we've never had a problem with her waking because she'd lost it.

Let us know how you're doing. Hope you two manage to get some rest soon :hugs:


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## Noelle610

MiniKiwi, you rock! It's great to hear that gentle methods work if you're consistent. 

So yesterday was weird. Charlotte has a little tantrum at daycare (their words, not mine!) and refused her first nap. Up at 6am and took a monster nap mid day - 12:30pm-2:45pm. So one nap. I put her to bed at 7pm.... No shenanigans, right to sleep, STTN without a peep until 6am. 

Wonder if it was a fluke or if she's ready to transition :shrug:


----------



## polaris

Wow Noelle, you are really lucky if the nap transition goes that smoothly! It's actually great when they are only on one nap because it's much easier to plan activities. But the transition was a bit of a nightmare for DS and very dragged out!

Well we ended up having a very good night last night - I actually feel well-rested for once! Clara woke up 45 mins after going to sleep as usual but she wasn't settling, she was trying to get to sleep but she just couldn't. I ended up giving her Nurofen because I thought it might be her teeth. Anyway after getting the Nurofen and a little feed, she went back to sleep at about 8 p.m., woke at 2 a.m. for a feed, and then straight back to sleep until 6 a.m.!! I feel like a new woman!


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## Shadowy Lady

Sofia sttn last night too. I'm getting my hopes up that the MOTN crawling is over. I however have been up since 4am. I had slept at 9:30 though so it's not so bad. But I'm still going to see my doctor again next week.


----------



## Noelle610

Shadowy Lady, even with medication I've been up since 4:30am. It sucks! I went to bed at 9pm so it's not that bad, but for some reason I seem to enter a light sleep cycle and can't settle at that time... Just like a baby :haha:


----------



## Sunnie1984

Noelle - I think that is the clearest signal for nap transition I have ever heard of! 

Sorry no time to properly update, but I have been reading. 

Will reply as soon as I get 10 mins to actually sit down! X


----------



## bananaz

Noelle610 said:


> So yesterday was weird. Charlotte has a little tantrum at daycare (their words, not mine!) and refused her first nap. Up at 6am and took a monster nap mid day - 12:30pm-2:45pm. So one nap. I put her to bed at 7pm.... No shenanigans, right to sleep, STTN without a peep until 6am.
> 
> Wonder if it was a fluke or if she's ready to transition :shrug:

Hmm it'll be interesting to see if it happens again! It would be great if the transition is that simple for you. Elsie has had a few days like that but usually even if her first nap gets pushed back it isn't long enough for her not to take a second nap so we get into that weird naptime no man's land.

I'm trying to figure out what to do with her schedule now too because she's waking early still. Right now it looks something like this...

5:30am - Up for the day
10am-11:15am - Nap #1
3:30pm-4:30pm - Nap #2
7:30pm - Bedtime

About half the time she fights the second nap and on those days it usually ends up only being 20-40 minutes long. 

Anyway, I'm wondering if I should just give up on a post-6am wakeup time for her? I'm more than happy with her getting a solid 10-hour chunk of sleep at night but she's not an amazing napper either so she typically only gets around 11-12 hours total a day, and that seems on the low side...


----------



## Noelle610

bananaz said:


> Noelle610 said:
> 
> 
> So yesterday was weird. Charlotte has a little tantrum at daycare (their words, not mine!) and refused her first nap. Up at 6am and took a monster nap mid day - 12:30pm-2:45pm. So one nap. I put her to bed at 7pm.... No shenanigans, right to sleep, STTN without a peep until 6am.
> 
> Wonder if it was a fluke or if she's ready to transition :shrug:
> 
> Hmm it'll be interesting to see if it happens again! It would be great if the transition is that simple for you. Elsie has had a few days like that but usually even if her first nap gets pushed back it isn't long enough for her not to take a second nap so we get into that weird naptime no man's land.
> 
> I'm trying to figure out what to do with her schedule now too because she's waking early still. Right now it looks something like this...
> 
> 5:30am - Up for the day
> 10am-11:15am - Nap #1
> 3:30pm-4:30pm - Nap #2
> 7:30pm - Bedtime
> 
> About half the time she fights the second nap and on those days it usually ends up only being 20-40 minutes long.
> 
> Anyway, I'm wondering if I should just give up on a post-6am wakeup time for her? I'm more than happy with her getting a solid 10-hour chunk of sleep at night but she's not an amazing napper either so she typically only gets around 11-12 hours total a day, and that seems on the low side...Click to expand...

No way it will be that easy! I think she may be ready, but "adaptable" is not really the top adjective used to describe my lovely daughter :haha:

Here's a suggestion from a sleep coach on transitioning to one nap. Since you're home with Elsie during the day I think this could work really well:



> And this is the basic advice for moving to one nap:
> 
> Just starting 1 nap (still having some 2 nap days): The first WT is stretched from 3-3.25 WT by 15-20min every 3-7 days until you get to a 4hr WT. If first nap ends before 12pm, do a 30-45 min catnap/quiet time ~3pm or 3.5hrs WT, whichever comes first.
> 
> Just recently on 1 nap: 4-4.25/6 (nap starting between 10am and 11am, depending on WU) Every 3-5 days, extend first WT by 15 min until he/she can cope with a 5hr WT
> 
> A couple weeks on 1 nap: 5/5 (eg. 6am WU, 11am nap, 7pm BT)
> 
> A few weeks more on 1 nap: 5.5/4.5-5(?) (eg. 6am WU, 11:30am nap, 7pm BT) 1 nap is well-established; No need to push the first WT unless there are signs that more WT is needed (lengthy monkey business before nap and/or shorter naps)
> 
> A couple months on 1 nap:: 6/4.5-5(?) (eg. 6am WU, 12pm nap, 7:30pm BT)
> 
> A few more months on 1 nap: 6.5/4.5-5(?)
> 
> 18+ months: 5.5-6/4.5-5(?) ~BTC nap starting at ~12:30-1:00pm
> 
> 24 months: 6+/5(?) ~BTC nap starting at ~1-1:30pm


----------



## bananaz

Noelle610 said:


> No way it will be that easy! I think she may be ready, but "adaptable" is not really the top adjective used to describe my lovely daughter :haha:
> 
> Here's a suggestion from a sleep coach on transitioning to one nap. Since you're home with Elsie during the day I think this could work really well:
> 
> 
> 
> And this is the basic advice for moving to one nap:
> 
> Just starting 1 nap (still having some 2 nap days): The first WT is stretched from 3-3.25 WT by 15-20min every 3-7 days until you get to a 4hr WT. If first nap ends before 12pm, do a 30-45 min catnap/quiet time ~3pm or 3.5hrs WT, whichever comes first.
> 
> Just recently on 1 nap: 4-4.25/6 (nap starting between 10am and 11am, depending on WU) Every 3-5 days, extend first WT by 15 min until he/she can cope with a 5hr WT
> 
> A couple weeks on 1 nap: 5/5 (eg. 6am WU, 11am nap, 7pm BT)
> 
> A few weeks more on 1 nap: 5.5/4.5-5(?) (eg. 6am WU, 11:30am nap, 7pm BT) 1 nap is well-established; No need to push the first WT unless there are signs that more WT is needed (lengthy monkey business before nap and/or shorter naps)
> 
> A couple months on 1 nap:: 6/4.5-5(?) (eg. 6am WU, 12pm nap, 7:30pm BT)
> 
> A few more months on 1 nap: 6.5/4.5-5(?)
> 
> 18+ months: 5.5-6/4.5-5(?) ~BTC nap starting at ~12:30-1:00pm
> 
> 24 months: 6+/5(?) ~BTC nap starting at ~1-1:30pmClick to expand...


Thanks, that's really helpful info. I guess I'm going to have to decide if I'm brave enough to handle her for 5-6 hours at a time! She has been so fussy and clingy the past couple of weeks that it's all I can do not to put her down in her crib and run away every 2 hours, lol :blush:


----------



## Noelle610

Another option would be to push her naps back so that you can have a longer wake time between nap 1 and 2, allowing for a longer second nap. Would she go down at 9am?


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## mellyboo

Alright now that we had self soothing for naps down pact and working out amazing for the pass couple weeks now.

I'm ready to start something at night waking up every 2 hours and some time's 30 minutes is seriously mind baffling right now and im so tired!!

What do I do how do i start?

My dr told me to basically get ear plugs and shut the door, I dont want to be that harsh.. 

I do believe in CIO just not sure how to go about it at night im sorta lost.


----------



## Noelle610

mellyboo said:


> Alright now that we had self soothing for naps down pact and working out amazing for the pass couple weeks now.
> 
> I'm ready to start something at night waking up every 2 hours and some time's 30 minutes is seriously mind baffling right now and im so tired!!
> 
> What do I do how do i start?
> 
> My dr told me to basically get ear plugs and shut the door, I dont want to be that harsh..
> 
> I do believe in CIO just not sure how to go about it at night im sorta lost.

Start with a plan that you and your OH both agree with and stick with it. That's the best course of action no matter which method you choose :)

In terms of which method to use, you've done CC right? Do the checks stimulate or comfort your LO?


----------



## seaweed eater

Do you guys think nursing LO to sleep could actually be messing with his nap times? I usually wait 20 seconds after he stops sucking before I move him, but sometimes he seems to be sucking in his sleep for a minute or two before that. Could just that minute or so of sleep possibly be throwing him off? He fights so much once I put him in the crib. I've put him down seven times so far this morning and no nap yet.


----------



## Shadowy Lady

Noelle - ya I know I get into that light sleep cycle too! Just like a baby I need to learn now to sttn again hahaha! It's tough on me coz all my life i've slept amazing; 8+ hours every night and 10+ hours when I was pregnant :/

Melly - def get you OH to help you with this. I found that was the only way it worked for us. Start on the weekend and have a plan you both agree on. Also we did CC not flat our CIO. I think for your LO's age CC would be more appropriate.

Seaweed - I still nurse Sofia to nap but not to sleep at night. However, she also does go down for naps without nursing if she's tired. She's in a good pattern now so I don't need to fight her napwise. But when she was younger (4-5 months) I would give it 30 mins, if she was still upset I'd get her, play with her and then try again after 30 mins. When did he start napping in her crib?


----------



## bananaz

seaweed eater said:


> Do you guys think nursing LO to sleep could actually be messing with his nap times? I usually wait 20 seconds after he stops sucking before I move him, but sometimes he seems to be sucking in his sleep for a minute or two before that. Could just that minute or so of sleep possibly be throwing him off? He fights so much once I put him in the crib. I've put him down seven times so far this morning and no nap yet.

I would try taking him off the breast sooner. With my LO I had the best luck getting her down when she was mostly asleep and her sucking had slowed down but not stopped entirely. Then I could take her off, put her in the crib, give her a few pats on the back and she would resettle very quickly.


----------



## mellyboo

Shadowy Lady said:


> Noelle - ya I know I get into that light sleep cycle too! Just like a baby I need to learn now to sttn again hahaha! It's tough on me coz all my life i've slept amazing; 8+ hours every night and 10+ hours when I was pregnant :/
> 
> Melly - def get you OH to help you with this. I found that was the only way it worked for us. Start on the weekend and have a plan you both agree on. Also we did CC not flat our CIO. I think for your LO's age CC would be more appropriate.
> 
> Seaweed - I still nurse Sofia to nap but not to sleep at night. However, she also does go down for naps without nursing if she's tired. She's in a good pattern now so I don't need to fight her napwise. But when she was younger (4-5 months) I would give it 30 mins, if she was still upset I'd get her, play with her and then try again after 30 mins. When did he start napping in her crib?


Thanks OH works nights and has weekends off so its a good time to start! I would do CC for night time i just couldnt leave her there to cry in the middle of the night in her room alone!


----------



## mellyboo

Noelle610 said:


> mellyboo said:
> 
> 
> Alright now that we had self soothing for naps down pact and working out amazing for the pass couple weeks now.
> 
> I'm ready to start something at night waking up every 2 hours and some time's 30 minutes is seriously mind baffling right now and im so tired!!
> 
> What do I do how do i start?
> 
> My dr told me to basically get ear plugs and shut the door, I dont want to be that harsh..
> 
> I do believe in CIO just not sure how to go about it at night im sorta lost.
> 
> Start with a plan that you and your OH both agree with and stick with it. That's the best course of action no matter which method you choose :)
> 
> In terms of which method to use, you've done CC right? Do the checks stimulate or comfort your LO?Click to expand...


She usually loses her suckie so she needs to be re-plugged which i dont mind going in... She some times gets worse when we go in and some time's not she's soo determined to get her way some times!

She know's her crib is for sleeping she whines heading up the stairs to her room and as soon as we get in her door way it goes worse this is when she is on a no nap strike!


----------



## charlie15

I feel bad on here as unable to give any advice to others but empathise with pants sleep! But I really feel like I know nothing about babies and sleep so who am I to advise?!! But hugs to all the sleep deprived mummies out there! The older S gets the more I realise I know nothing!! 

Tonight was a typical overtired, not napped well scenario where it has taken 2 hours to get her to sleep! It has never taken that long, the booby just stimulated her, swinging in my arms, well that was just lovely but I want to wriggle, I lay her down and lay next to her, hands on tummy, stroked her hair, that just seem to wake her up more, sat up next to her with hand on tummy, stayed while she cried, still nothing!! Stopped everything, as in the white noise, put a dim light on, check her temp, nappy, gave calpol as know she is teething, but she's OK when teething tbh, so don't think it was that! In the end I was at a loss and felt overwhelmed, I can't get my OH in as she screams blue murder when he outs her to bed. I have no idea why, I just think she wanted me, but everything I was dong was keeping her more awake and she was getting more frustrated, as was I! In the end I walked out of the room and left her crying, i could not take anymore! But I felt so bad, I left her for 5 minutes only, now I know nothing about CIO or CC as never thought to use them for us and she is only 5 months old, I feel so bad, I went back in after 5 min and she calmed down. But then we were at the same old position, I had to get OH to take over. She did cry but then fell asleep!!! Thank god! Today she napped badly, only 2 naps for 30 min each and then was with her nana who dotes on her, so I think she was a very over tired baby! 

Is there anything else that I could have done? I am hoping that this is a one off. Normally I need to lay her down and either let her hold my fingers for a while or lay my hand in her tummy and she relaxes and nods off. I use to breast feed her to sleep but that doesn't work any more,which I'm kind of glad about. Ahhhhhhh I'm exhausted after that!


----------



## Noelle610

mellyboo said:


> Noelle610 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> mellyboo said:
> 
> 
> Alright now that we had self soothing for naps down pact and working out amazing for the pass couple weeks now.
> 
> I'm ready to start something at night waking up every 2 hours and some time's 30 minutes is seriously mind baffling right now and im so tired!!
> 
> What do I do how do i start?
> 
> My dr told me to basically get ear plugs and shut the door, I dont want to be that harsh..
> 
> I do believe in CIO just not sure how to go about it at night im sorta lost.
> 
> Start with a plan that you and your OH both agree with and stick with it. That's the best course of action no matter which method you choose :)
> 
> In terms of which method to use, you've done CC right? Do the checks stimulate or comfort your LO?Click to expand...
> 
> 
> She usually loses her suckie so she needs to be re-plugged which i dont mind going in... She some times gets worse when we go in and some time's not she's soo determined to get her way some times!
> 
> She know's her crib is for sleeping she whines heading up the stairs to her room and as soon as we get in her door way it goes worse this is when she is on a no nap strike!Click to expand...

Can she re-insert it herself? If not, I'd just get rid of the pacifier. 

I would work on creating positive sleep associations. Do you have a bedtime routine that's relaxing and that she enjoys? 

What's her daytime routine like? 

I think I would get these things in order for a week or so before starting sleep training :flower:


----------



## NotNic

Charlie don't worry. Just having people in the same boat sympathising helps a great deal. Also it's great to exchange ideas about what works and doesn't work. It sounds to me that your little one, might be a baby that gets a little over stimulated and hyper when they are actually tired. It sounds like you tried a lot of things and watching you do everything, might have kept her awake. They also pick up on any of our panicky or stressed out vibes. How do you go about putting her to bed. Do you have a wind down routine? Do you put them down at a set time or when they give sleep cues? If it is a set time then maybe trying to watch for those cues might be more helpful it getting them to settle more quickly.

When Finlay is tired much earlier than usual I still do a bath routine. It wakes him up enough to sort of 'reset him' to how he should be. For some babies this is too much too close to bed, but it works for us. We then do the normal massage, nightclothes bottle thing, but I don't dwell on any of the stages. I get them done as quickly as I can and try to put him down with minimal fuss. If he's too fidgety or too cry-ey to settle, then I'll be honest I don't battle with him in the cot. We try to resettle him 2-3 time, but after that I bring him downstairs, set him on the floor and let him crawl or play with one quiet calming toy (nothing with noise or lights). Then when he's crawled about for a few minutes I put him on my lap and watch TV (again nothing too flashy - just a boring news program) and sit still and don't say anything to him. Normally within 10 mins we start getting the glassy eye, staring face and as soon as I get that he is whisked up to bed, tucked in and I rush out of the bedroom.


----------



## polaris

Sleep experts - I've been thinking about Clara's nightly 45 minute wake-up and I came up with a theory. A bit of background: she goes to bed early (often 6 p.m.) but always wakes at 45 minutes, she goes back to sleep very easily with just a hand on the back but often wakes up again about 10 to 20 minutes later. This time it's generally harder to get her to go back to sleep and I sometimes end up feeding her. She usually goes back to sleep by about 8 or 8.30 and then she seems to have a period of deeper sleep. She is generally having two naps per day, usually at about 9ish for 1.5 hours and about 1ish for 1.5 to 2 hours.

So my theory is this: could that first stretch of sleep actually be a third nap that has got joined on to her night time sleep? My understanding is that the first stretch of sleep is usually the deepest but that just isn't the case with Clara, her sleep is very unsettled for the first few hours and only then does she go into a deeper sleep. This is the case regardless of how she napped that day and whether or not she is over-tired at bedtime. And she was quite young moving to two naps at six months. What do you think? Is this possible? And if so is there anything I can do about it or is it just a matter of waiting it out? She doesn't want to get up when she wakes at 45 mins, she clearly wants to go back to sleep but just really struggles to go into a deep sleep.


----------



## seaweed eater

Shadowy Lady said:


> Seaweed - I still nurse Sofia to nap but not to sleep at night. However, she also does go down for naps without nursing if she's tired. She's in a good pattern now so I don't need to fight her napwise. But when she was younger (4-5 months) I would give it 30 mins, if she was still upset I'd get her, play with her and then try again after 30 mins. When did he start napping in her crib?

Thanks. He started napping in his big boy crib the weekend before last, so almost two weeks ago, although for the first week I wasn't as consistent about it because there was a lot of other stuff going on. He started napping in his bassinet around 4 months, and before that it was in the bouncy chair. I've always nursed him to sleep, though. He naps at daycare without nursing -- I think they rock him or bounce him -- and on rare occasions DH can settle him, but I can't settle him without nursing.



bananaz said:


> I would try taking him off the breast sooner. With my LO I had the best luck getting her down when she was mostly asleep and her sucking had slowed down but not stopped entirely. Then I could take her off, put her in the crib, give her a few pats on the back and she would resettle very quickly.

Wow, thanks, maybe I should try that for a few days! Did it take her time to get used to that or did you find a sweet spot right away? I used to let him unlatch on his own and then wait for ages before putting him down, and over the course of maybe three months I've been trying to take him off myself after he's stopped for a few seconds and very very gradually put him down earlier. We got stuck at 10 seconds so I went back to 20, but maybe it would be less frustrating to him if I didn't let him fall asleep there at all...I know I certainly feel frustrated when I'm just drifting off and then someone wakes me up! Happened a few times just today! :p



charlie15 said:


> I feel bad on here as unable to give any advice to others but empathise with pants sleep! But I really feel like I know nothing about babies and sleep so who am I to advise?!! But hugs to all the sleep deprived mummies out there! The older S gets the more I realise I know nothing!!

:hugs: :hugs: Don't worry about it. As NotNic said, it's good just to have someone who can listen and sympathize. I don't have much to contribute other than sympathy, myself, though, so I know how you feel!

I'm sorry you had such a hard time at bedtime. :hugs: I agree with NotNic that all the different things you tried might have been stimulating to her. Everything you did sounds appropriate but maybe it was just too many different things. I don't think leaving her for 5 minutes really "counts" as CC or CIO if nothing else would calm her down. Some babies on some nights are just stimulated by everything. I know I have done that before with mine. He never settled that way, in that particular situation, but sometimes he was able to calm down and fall asleep afterward, so I guess maybe it at least gave him the message that it's bedtime now. And I at least didn't feel like I was making things worse.

I can tell you that what I do with Munchkin depends on what exactly he is doing, but then I do pretty much the same few things...if he's awake and wiggly and cheerful, I hold him on my lap without talking to him or leave him down in the crib until he fusses. If he's persistently fussy, I keep trying to nurse him, or leave him in the crib until he cries. If he's crying inconsolably and won't nurse, I have generally called the doctor and/or given him Tylenol if I can think of a reason he would need it, because he's never done that unless something is going on. If I feel like I'm getting too frustrated, then in goes DH, and I try again once I've taken some deep breaths. And, if all else fails and he's already lost a couple hours or more, then DH takes him in the car, which I hate doing but which is so far the most reliable way to get him to SLEEP. But I try to reserve it for really extraordinary situations.



polaris said:


> So my theory is this: could that first stretch of sleep actually be a third nap that has got joined on to her night time sleep? My understanding is that the first stretch of sleep is usually the deepest but that just isn't the case with Clara, her sleep is very unsettled for the first few hours and only then does she go into a deeper sleep. This is the case regardless of how she napped that day and whether or not she is over-tired at bedtime. And she was quite young moving to two naps at six months. What do you think? Is this possible? And if so is there anything I can do about it or is it just a matter of waiting it out? She doesn't want to get up when she wakes at 45 mins, she clearly wants to go back to sleep but just really struggles to go into a deep sleep.

Polaris, your theory sounds plausible to me, though I'm certainly no expert! Just one note from my experience though. Munchkin also has lighter sleep for the first 45 minutes -- he's only actually woken up then this past week when he's been overtired, but even when he doesn't wake up all the way, he often makes noise or stirs right at 45 minutes. My understanding was that it was normal for them to have a lighter first cycle and then transition into a deeper cycle at 45 mins, which is why that's a fragile time. So, if I'm right about that (which I may not be), I wouldn't read too much into the initial 45-min waking. But the fact that it doesn't seem to vary based on whether she is overtired, and the subsequent waking when she is harder to settle -- those sound more unusual to me.


----------



## MiniKiwi

Polaris - My LO used to do the same thing, wake constantly in the first few hours of going to bed. Sometimes she'd wake 10/15 minutes after I got her to sleep and carry on waking breifly every 30 ish mins for hours :wacko: I moved her bedtime from 6pm to 7pm (no 15 mins each night or anything, just one night forced her to stay up anothe hour and she was knackered but it worked) and those short, early evening wakings stopped instantly. Might be worth considering

Noelle - so hoping it's not a fluke for you! I'm looking forward to one nap as I often find it hard to get out of the house if I know I have to hurry home for naps. Fingers crossed for you :)

Mellyboo - I'm curious if you might like to try something like I did with your LO? It worked well for us! If not, best of luck with the CC/CIO. I also agree with Noelle, that it might be a good idea to ditch the soother


----------



## seaweed eater

MiniKiwi, I have a question for you. Did you know/suspect in advance that it would work well for Mia to have you there with her, and that it wouldn't just stimulate her more? It sounds like you preferred your method to CIO because it is gentler, which I totally understand, but I wonder if you think it might actually have been more effective for Mia as well -- if you noticed that she'd been calmed by your presence even before you tried the training.


----------



## bananaz

seaweed eater said:


> bananaz said:
> 
> 
> I would try taking him off the breast sooner. With my LO I had the best luck getting her down when she was mostly asleep and her sucking had slowed down but not stopped entirely. Then I could take her off, put her in the crib, give her a few pats on the back and she would resettle very quickly.
> 
> Wow, thanks, maybe I should try that for a few days! Did it take her time to get used to that or did you find a sweet spot right away? I used to let him unlatch on his own and then wait for ages before putting him down, and over the course of maybe three months I've been trying to take him off myself after he's stopped for a few seconds and very very gradually put him down earlier. We got stuck at 10 seconds so I went back to 20, but maybe it would be less frustrating to him if I didn't let him fall asleep there at all...I know I certainly feel frustrated when I'm just drifting off and then someone wakes me up! Happened a few times just today! :pClick to expand...

It worked right away, surprisingly. My LO can comfort suck foreeeever so at a certain point I just couldn't take it anymore and tried putting her down once the sucking slowed and she seemed mostly asleep. 

I kept her latched on while I walked over to the crib and it turned out that the movement didn't disturb her as much that way than when I'd let her pull off. When I set her in the crib she would squawk but I just rolled her onto belly, gave her a couple pats on the back and usually she would go straight back to sleep. I was totally shocked when it worked the first time! I don't know if all babies do the half-asleep slow sucking thing but that was the sweet spot for her. Feeding to sleep is truly an art :haha:


----------



## MiniKiwi

seaweed eater said:


> MiniKiwi, I have a question for you. Did you know/suspect in advance that it would work well for Mia to have you there with her, and that it wouldn't just stimulate her more? It sounds like you preferred your method to CIO because it is gentler, which I totally understand, but I wonder if you think it might actually have been more effective for Mia as well -- if you noticed that she'd been calmed by your presence even before you tried the training.

Um tbh, I thought she'd go ballistic and I mentally prepared myself the first night for it to take an age and lots of tears. I was so suprised. I had thought about what she'd do if I let her CIO and I thought it'd be hours of screaming, I'll never know if that would have been the case though. She's quite a 'stubborn', or whatever you'd call it, baby and getting her to sleep had been very tough for months - even in my arms, transferring her to the cot was a nightmare. I thought my being there but not picking her up would work her up but it turned out not to be the case. I think she was just ready for this and was probably ready sooner but I just wasn't


----------



## mellyboo

Noelle610 said:


> mellyboo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Noelle610 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> mellyboo said:
> 
> 
> Alright now that we had self soothing for naps down pact and working out amazing for the pass couple weeks now.
> 
> I'm ready to start something at night waking up every 2 hours and some time's 30 minutes is seriously mind baffling right now and im so tired!!
> 
> What do I do how do i start?
> 
> My dr told me to basically get ear plugs and shut the door, I dont want to be that harsh..
> 
> I do believe in CIO just not sure how to go about it at night im sorta lost.
> 
> Start with a plan that you and your OH both agree with and stick with it. That's the best course of action no matter which method you choose :)
> 
> In terms of which method to use, you've done CC right? Do the checks stimulate or comfort your LO?Click to expand...
> 
> 
> She usually loses her suckie so she needs to be re-plugged which i dont mind going in... She some times gets worse when we go in and some time's not she's soo determined to get her way some times!
> 
> She know's her crib is for sleeping she whines heading up the stairs to her room and as soon as we get in her door way it goes worse this is when she is on a no nap strike!Click to expand...
> 
> Can she re-insert it herself? If not, I'd just get rid of the pacifier.
> 
> I would work on creating positive sleep associations. Do you have a bedtime routine that's relaxing and that she enjoys?
> 
> What's her daytime routine like?
> 
> I think I would get these things in order for a week or so before starting sleep training :flower:Click to expand...

I'm dreading getting rid of the suckie i'm not ready for it.. she's such a sulky baby!

We have a good day time thing going on she self soothes for naps and stuff usually just have to give her the suckie and out she goes ...she some times whines for a bit but then she's sleeping its not even bad really.

Night time we deff have a strict routine which she needs to stick to we cant leave the house pass 6pm its not worth it.. she'll have a melt down if she's not in her crib from 730-8 she goes down with out a fight on her bed time.. bed time is super easy!


Its just the in the middle of the night wakings like every 30 minutes seriously? or an hour even... it's a treat lately to go 2 hours she switches back and forth literally everything is amazing with her ACCEPT FOR in the middle of the night.

I'll give you a rough estimate on her day and night starting with
7-8am - She wakes up for the day
10am- first nap of the day this can some times be 1 hr,2 hr, 30 mins.
12noon- she starts getting tired again if she hasn't had a good nap and starts showing tired signs so i put her in her crib she falls asleep super good.
2pm- she has solids and another bottle
3pm- she shows signs of being tired again so i usually put her for a nap which this is my hardest nap she loves to resist it but always ends up falling asleep just whines in her crib for like ever and rubs her eyes.
6ish we do our usual bed time routine and she has a bottle around 7pm ( bed time bottle) She is in her crib by 730 falls asleep around 8pm she talks to her self for 30 minutes i think shes unwinding.. 

her first wake up is 12 midnight we feed her then and then she's up about a zillion time's strait through.. always up around 4am and 6am i could set my time on this one always wants to eat around 6 am so then i feed her and she sleeps for a bit longer.


----------



## mellyboo

So she only woke up twice last night ?? We did nothing different other then she woke up at 845 for 2o mins crying her little lungs off :( we had to pat her back shh her to calm down .. I didn't pick her up though only because she didn seem like pain and when I walked in she started to get excited ... She refused her night time bottle so I did try handing her the bottle she refused .. She only had 2 (6oz) bottles all day .. I figured she would be up eating.. Woke up at 1am for a bottle finally... Then woke up at 6am and is now back in bed I feel like I got so much sleep I can't go back to bed lol !
I feel like a new person!


----------



## mellyboo

MiniKiwi said:


> Polaris - My LO used to do the same thing, wake constantly in the first few hours of going to bed. Sometimes she'd wake 10/15 minutes after I got her to sleep and carry on waking breifly every 30 ish mins for hours :wacko: I moved her bedtime from 6pm to 7pm (no 15 mins each night or anything, just one night forced her to stay up anothe hour and she was knackered but it worked) and those short, early evening wakings stopped instantly. Might be worth considering
> 
> Noelle - so hoping it's not a fluke for you! I'm looking forward to one nap as I often find it hard to get out of the house if I know I have to hurry home for naps. Fingers crossed for you :)
> 
> Mellyboo - I'm curious if you might like to try something like I did with your LO? It worked well for us! If not, best of luck with the CC/CIO. I also agree with Noelle, that it might be a good idea to ditch the soother

What did you do :)


----------



## Noelle610

Sounds like a great night melly!

If she's fighting that third nap, I'd go ahead and transition her to 2. You will have to stretch her awake time though and it might be hard for a few weeks and you may end up doing an earlier bedtime. The naps will lengthen though.


----------



## bananaz

mellyboo said:


> MiniKiwi said:
> 
> 
> Polaris - My LO used to do the same thing, wake constantly in the first few hours of going to bed. Sometimes she'd wake 10/15 minutes after I got her to sleep and carry on waking breifly every 30 ish mins for hours :wacko: I moved her bedtime from 6pm to 7pm (no 15 mins each night or anything, just one night forced her to stay up anothe hour and she was knackered but it worked) and those short, early evening wakings stopped instantly. Might be worth considering
> 
> Noelle - so hoping it's not a fluke for you! I'm looking forward to one nap as I often find it hard to get out of the house if I know I have to hurry home for naps. Fingers crossed for you :)
> 
> Mellyboo - I'm curious if you might like to try something like I did with your LO? It worked well for us! If not, best of luck with the CC/CIO. I also agree with Noelle, that it might be a good idea to ditch the soother
> 
> What did you do :)Click to expand...



Here's what she posted a couple days ago :flower:



MiniKiwi said:


> Tbh, I hadn't tried anything before. I walked/rocked/bounced her to sleep from an early age, for a few months between 4-7 months she needed hours of rocking a day :coffee: Between 8 and 10 months, she went to bed at 6pm and would wake every 30-90 minutes until 10 or 11pm (Noelle reckoned this was cause she was going to bed too early so we switched to 7pm bedtime which definitely helped some) and she'd wake up between 11 and 2 am and stay awake for 1-3 hours - she did that for about 2 months lol!!!! When she woke hourly or less one night, I decided enough was enough.
> 
> I bathed her, let her do her usual crawl around and play for an hour, gave her a bottle and put her in her cot. I just put one hand on her tummy, one on her head and stroked her hair and shhhed loudly when she cried and quietly when she was quiet. She was asleep in 15 minutes and cried a not too upset cry, on and off for 10 ish mins. The second night she cried for 3 minutes and no crying the third night. I've just been doing the same thing since, it doesn't always work straight away (if she's squealing and chatting it won't work) so I just walk away for a bit and on occasion she will self settle and if not, I go back in when she cries and shh and stroke her head and she nods off. She no longer wakes in the early night time and it's been 1-2 wakings since then and only a few, short motn parties :)


----------



## NotNic

Lie in's seem to be a fluke. 5.30am yesterday and 6.00am today :( On the upside he has been pretty much sttn this week. A little restless before 11pm, but quiet as a mouse after that. Now I just need to convince OH to take F downstairs when he wakes up at dawn to give me a tiny lie in and I'll be one happy mama :D Anyone been able to sleep train their partners?! :haha:


----------



## mrsbeano

NotNic said:


> Lie in's seem to be a fluke. 5.30am yesterday and 6.00am today :( On the upside he has been pretty much sttn this week. A little restless before 11pm, but quiet as a mouse after that. Now I just need to convince OH to take F downstairs when he wakes up at dawn to give me a tiny lie in and I'll be one happy mama :D Anyone been able to sleep train their partners?! :haha:

Absolutely! My nights are Sat, Sun, Tues & Thurs and DHs are Mon, Wed & Fri. On those nights, the selected parent will deal with any night wakings and in the morning, if LO wakes up before we need to for work we will look after him and similarly on the weekend, we both get a lie in until 9am. We need to recharge too xx


----------



## bananaz

So yesterday LO woke at 5:30am as usual and she seemed really tired but she couldn't get back to sleep so she ended up going down for her first nap at 8:30am because she was so grumpy. 

Today when she got up at 5:30 I rushed in and gave her ibuprofen (she's teething really badly), changed her diaper and fed her a little and sure enough she went back to sleep and woke up happy and rested 20 minutes later. What I want to know is, if her body needs an extra 20 minutes of sleep why doesn't she just sleep 20 minutes longer?! I'm not complaining - I actually like this arrangement because it gives me some time to wake up, it just seems so strange that she'd wake 20 minutes before she's ready every morning.


----------



## polaris

bananaz said:


> So yesterday LO woke at 5:30am as usual and she seemed really tired but she couldn't get back to sleep so she ended up going down for her first nap at 8:30am because she was so grumpy.
> 
> Today when she got up at 5:30 I rushed in and gave her ibuprofen (she's teething really badly), changed her diaper and fed her a little and sure enough she went back to sleep and woke up happy and rested 20 minutes later. What I want to know is, if her body needs an extra 20 minutes of sleep why doesn't she just sleep 20 minutes longer?! I'm not complaining - I actually like this arrangement because it gives me some time to wake up, it just seems so strange that she'd wake 20 minutes before she's ready every morning.

Baby sleep is just totally bizarre! I kept the early morning feed for ages because it worked to get DS back to sleep for that extra hour that he needed.

He also went through a phase of waking at 5.30 and refusing to go back to sleep even though he was still tired, he actually responded well to an earlier bedtime which got him back sleeping until 6.


----------



## charlie15

Notnic, you are spot on, she is a baby that gets hyper when tired and she does get easily over stimulated. Mind you the over stimulated side of her is getting less and less as she is getting older. When she was younger you had to be soooooo careful not to over stimulate her. Bedtime is based on sleepy cues but between 6 and 7 so a loose time, but I think you have made a great point that I just need to get on with it quickly so she doesn't have a chance to get hyper. I think yesterday she napped so badly and had a fun filled day that I knew an early bedtime was in order. I still try to hold out to 6.30 so probably prolong the routine, which has alway being OK with her but not now. So tonight gave her a 5 min bath, quick massage with her bedtime tunes, cuddle with me and her lovey, in sleep bag, feed, sleep. I think I was done in 20 minutes and she's been fast asleep for an hour now, so thank you. I have been working on her naps tbh as her bedtime was fine until this week. Her morning nap is like bang, so quick and she's out, so for sure a quick routine seems to be what S needs, I'm happy with that:)

Melly my LO still needs her pacifier and she cannot put in back in herself either! I know I need to ditch it too but am dreading it totally. I am focusing on getting her naps down first though and once she's got in the habit of napping well then the paci will go, well I'll try to get rid of it! Have you thought how you are going to do it yet?


----------



## charlie15

bananaz said:


> So yesterday LO woke at 5:30am as usual and she seemed really tired but she couldn't get back to sleep so she ended up going down for her first nap at 8:30am because she was so grumpy.
> 
> Today when she got up at 5:30 I rushed in and gave her ibuprofen (she's teething really badly), changed her diaper and fed her a little and sure enough she went back to sleep and woke up happy and rested 20 minutes later. What I want to know is, if her body needs an extra 20 minutes of sleep why doesn't she just sleep 20 minutes longer?! I'm not complaining - I actually like this arrangement because it gives me some time to wake up, it just seems so strange that she'd wake 20 minutes before she's ready every morning.

My LO totally does this too, but can often go back to sleep for an hour. It doesn't happen often but I love it when it does and I get an hour to get showered and have breakfast before S gets up for the day :) no idea why it happens though. Baby sleep is random to me!


----------



## NotNic

I'm so pleased Charlie. Fingers crossed this is the sign of a good night for you. :flower:


----------



## gaiagirl

Melly that sounds like an amazing night! When we have two wake ups (rare) I am over the moon the next day!

Bananaz that is bizarre about the wake up and 20min recharge...baby sleep is so mysterious to me!

Speaking of...my LO has been FIGHTING bedtime all week. It's soooooo aggravating. I know he's getting teeth, but he is going down for naps no problem. Four short naps today, NONE of which he fought me on. But 7:30 bedtime rolls around and his eyes pop open and he's instantly squirming around the SECOND I lay him down. I have tried more time awake before bed, less time awake. More naps, less naps.

Seriously about to lose it...


----------



## gaiagirl

It's now been an hour and I'm sitting in the rocker as he lies chattering away in the crib. 

GO TO SLEEEEEEEP.

I need wine.


----------



## seaweed eater

:hugs: :hugs:


----------



## bananaz

gaiagirl said:


> It's now been an hour and I'm sitting in the rocker as he lies chattering away in the crib.
> 
> GO TO SLEEEEEEEP.
> 
> I need wine.

Ugh that's tough. Does he have big developmental stuff going on right now? Elsie is learning to walk and she's been getting so excited during the day that she has a really hard time unwinding and going to sleep at night. Extending the bedtime routine seems to help her.


----------



## gaiagirl

I want to blame it on something, maybe the teeth. It's not a wonder week BUT I was just texting a friend this evening about how I incredibly physical he's been this week! Rolling tons, almost sitting, going from sitting to tummy, doing downward dog...he's been crazy!

This evening in particular he was a very hyper little madman!


----------



## polaris

Another bad night last night. She went to bed at 7 p.m. and she settled perfectly and I was sure that she was going to have a good night! However, she woke at 7.45 p.m. (usual 45 minute wake-up) and just wouldn't resettle at all, I actually ended up getting her up for an hour which I never do because she was just so wide awake. She finally went back to sleep at about 10 p.m. then woke at 1 a.m. for a feed and again at 3 a.m. for unknown reasons (wouldn't resettle for an hour). However she started properly crawling yesterday so I am guessing she is just a bit wired because of that.


----------



## mellyboo

She's resisting every single nap and bed time the pass 2 days, I have no idea what to do..

She had that one good night sleep ( good for us) friday night last night was every 30 mins again...

We used to be able to put her down in her crib she would whine a little and go off to sleep lately she's been crying on and off until she falls asleep we obviously go up there and re assure her and everything but it seems we just make her worse by going up to her and trying to calm her down..

I'm at a loss of words I try putting her down when she starts rubbing her eyes, yawning i cant hit that magic moment ever...

I'm so disappointed in myself I'm obviously doing something wrong it seems like we get it good for a bit and then HORRIBLE... it's been a long 6 months of no sleep and im now convincing myself it's something i'm doing.

I only get help with her on the weekens, OH works nights so his secdule is sleeping all day until supper time (5pm) or 6pm and going to work at 11 40pm.. so his never around and on sunday nights he leaves around 9 the only day's he can help is friday nights and saturday nights.. 

I need to rant.. I need some guidance right now!


----------



## Noelle610

We have been having really good nights! Charlotte napped a lot yesterday and didn't go to bed until 7:45pm, which is late for her. She then slept until almost 7am and so did I. It was shocking to get up when it was light outside! Felt so strange. You know you're a mom when 7am feels like sleeping in.


----------



## VikkiD

Noelle610 said:


> We have been having really good nights! Charlotte napped a lot yesterday and didn't go to bed until 7:45pm, which is late for her. She then slept until almost 7am and so did I. It was shocking to get up when it was light outside! Felt so strange. You know you're a mom when 7am feels like sleeping in.

I love those 7am lie in they are very rare :)

Not to bad here I took Daniel to soft play Friday he was shattered when we got home an slept 12hrs last night he did 7pm till 1:40 had a bottle an back down till 6:15.


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## bananaz

Another weird night here. She was super wound up when she went down last night and didn't fall asleep until almost 8pm, then she was up at 5:20 this morning screaming and hysterical. I wasn't planning on feeding her until 6am but she was so upset even after I gave her pain meds and changed her diaper that I went ahead and nursed her. Then she went back down at 5:40 and slept until 6:15. I feel like this is the beginning of that damn feeding creeping back until 3-4am again :dohh:

Will go through and read everyone's posts when I have a bit of time later...


----------



## socitycourty

Is feeling rage a side effect of not sleeping for 10 months? I feel like ripping everyone's head off recently :(


----------



## VikkiD

socitycourty said:


> Is feeling rage a side effect of not sleeping for 10 months? I feel like ripping everyone's head off recently :(

Yes Hun I am the same I think I use to be so laid back before I had lo now I am evil lol


----------



## gaiagirl

Awwwww hugs xxxxxx 

I have heard time and time again that 4/6 to 10 months is the toughest. Seems like a ridiculously long time to me but it will pass (sooner for you than for me)!


----------



## gaiagirl

Wait, Vicki doesn't your LO sleep 12 hours frequently!? Lol


----------



## bananaz

socitycourty said:


> Is feeling rage a side effect of not sleeping for 10 months? I feel like ripping everyone's head off recently :(

Ohh yeah sleep deprivation makes me super irritable too :hugs:


----------



## VikkiD

gaiagirl said:


> Wait, Vicki doesn't your LO sleep 12 hours frequently!? Lol

He as the last two weeks slept 12 hours 3 times and most nights we are down to one wake up now. Much better than the hourly wake ups we have had since Xmas :)


----------



## gaiagirl

Ahhhhhhh ok so you are my inspiration! Lol. Hope to get there soon :)


----------



## VikkiD

gaiagirl said:


> Ahhhhhhh ok so you are my inspiration! Lol. Hope to get there soon :)

We had a dummy problem he would wake up for it about 10 times a night he's never been a great sleeper so once a night it heaven compared to what we were having fingers crossed for u Hun :) I know how hard it is coping on no sleep as I run my own business as well lo comes with me an somedays I just felt like curling up under my desk lol


----------



## polaris

I am beginning to think that some of Clara's wakings must be due to teething pain. I gave her Nurofen tonight because she couldn't seem to settle at bedtime even though I could see she was trying to get to sleep. And although I did hear her stirring at 45 minutes, so far she hasn't woken up! I am really reluctant to give pain meds because she actually shows NO symptoms of teething during the day (except for chewing on everything but that's just constant regardless). However I did give her Nurofen one night last week and she slept from 8 p.m. right through till 2 a.m. and had a feed and back to sleep until 6 a.m.!! Which is an amazingly good night for us! So I will be really interested to see how tonight goes. Do other people give pain meds regularly? I have no problem giving them if they are clearly needed but surely if her teeth were hurting her she would be at least mildly cranky during the day or show some teething signs? Or is it possible to teethe only at night???

Mellyboo :hugs: I totally know that feeling of questioning yourself and wondering what you are doing wrong. But honestly I have two children who have both been problematic in regard to sleep but in totally different ways. Babies are just different and some are just naturally good sleepers and some are not. Also what works like a charm with one baby may not work at all with another, as I have found numerous times with my two. What is your schedule for her at the moment? I find with Clara that if she is eye-rubbing/yawning then I have actually already left it too late and she won't settle easily. I just go by the clock now and it has really solved our napping issues (touch wood!!). Night-times are another story mind you! At your LO's age, I was trying to keep Clara up too long because she didn't really show tired signs and I had to reduce her awake-times right down in order to get her napping properly.

Noelle, yay for a lie-in until 7 a.m.!! I love the pic of Charlotte in your avatar by the way.

Socity - yes sleep deprivation makes me super irritable. I end up losing the plot with my three year old over something really silly and then feeling terrible about it. And I honestly feel murderous towards OH at times, e.g. this morning he commented that Clara "had a really good night, didn't she". Err, no, she was awake as often as usual, what you really mean is _you_ had a really good night's sleep! I should just laugh it off but honestly I get so mad!


----------



## seaweed eater

Lots of :hugs: :hugs: all around, especially to Mellyboo! I'm sorry you are feeling so stuck right now. Please don't blame yourself. Some babies just make it harder for us to know how to help them sleep enough. You're clearly concerned about your LO and trying to be the best mama you can. Things will get better. I wish I had some more specific suggestions!

We had a pretty bad night last night :sleep: I was disappointed, because yesterday was a PERFECT two-nap day...3/3/3.5 hr wake times, 1 hr 40 mins in the morning and then 45 mins in the afternoon, and NO fighting either of them :happydance: but it seems like it just wasn't enough yet. Or something. In any case, he was up every hour to hour and a half between 11 and 4:30, and he was very hard to resettle each time. It seemed maybe gross motor related, because he couldn't lie still at all when I put him down. I don't know :shrug: I'm just going to call it a random bad night and try to forget about it! I don't think I did anything wrong.

Bananaz, thank you for your tip about putting him down earlier after nursing :thumbup: sadly it didn't work for us quite as you suggested, but it did prompt me to experiment with changing the timing, and I think we've found something that works well. He gets really mad if I take him off when his sucking slows down, but if I wait for him to let go on his own and then _immediately_ transfer to the crib, he's awake but drowsy enough to settle, and he doesn't seem upset about being woken up. So thank you! Crossing my fingers that it continues to work well!


----------



## VikkiD

I give my lo a small dose of calpol before bed some nights when his cheeks are burning an he Is drooling I can't say I have noticed it help with his sleeping xx


----------



## polaris

Seaweed eater - I know that feeling of disappointment when the whole day has gone so smoothly and then the night is a disaster! Clara's daytime sleep is actually really good now and _every single night_ I put her to bed convinced that tonight she will actually sleep properly. Which unfortunately always turns out to be wishful thinking. There doesn't seem to be any direct correlation between what sort of day we have and what sort of night we have.

Clara is the easiest baby in the world during the day, about one thousand times easier and more laid-back than DS, which is why I can never understand why she is such an awful sleeper! It just doesn't make any sense.

Vikki, that is the thing, I wouldn't mind giving medication if she had visible teething symptoms like flushed cheeks and drooling. But she doesn't. The only symptom she has is being unable to settle to sleep and this kind of whiny cry that may or may not indicate discomfort/pain. I don't think she's in agony but maybe it's more of a niggly pain that just won't let her settle? She hasn't woken up yet this evening which is extremely unusual for her! Also my toddler had a no nap day and so has been fast asleep since 7.30. I am really really enjoying a child free evening for a change!!


----------



## socitycourty

yes I have definitely felt murderous towards my DH at times. LOL


----------



## NotNic

Finlay regularly has calpol and nurofen. I would say at least half the week he has at least one daily dose. The dose on the bottles are far less than would actually be harmful and the difference is very noticeable. I don't give him medicine unless he cries the pain cry. 

Today was another early start - 5.30 though I managed to get him to doze until 6.20 (resettling at 6am). Yesterday he had two naps totalling 40mins but ended up going down and being asleep by 7.20. Today he had 20mins in the morning but we also had two short naps in the car. Fingers crossed for a good night


----------



## Noelle610

bananaz said:


> socitycourty said:
> 
> 
> Is feeling rage a side effect of not sleeping for 10 months? I feel like ripping everyone's head off recently :(
> 
> Ohh yeah sleep deprivation makes me super irritable too :hugs:Click to expand...

YES! In fact, I noticed recently that I don't hate everyone and I realized it was because I'm sleeping some nights. :hugs: mama


----------



## socitycourty

i thought I might just finally be losing it, LOL!


----------



## Noelle610

socitycourty said:


> i thought I might just finally be losing it, LOL!

Not yet :rofl:


----------



## socitycourty

:rofl:


----------



## Sunnie1984

Gah teething and the intro to WW37 means grumpy pants baby and multiple night weaklings from 3am and early wake ups.... I'm exhausted already, and WW37 has like a month to go! 

Socity I definitely get really mad when sleep deprived xx


----------



## NotNic

Ah Sunnie :hugs: That ww was a tough one for us. Fingers crossed your lo has peaked early. 

I think F has an ear infection :( we have a drs appt tomorrow to check. He woke at 5.30am again but he's still tired. He fell asleep in his highchair this morning and had 20mins really early. He hasn't napped properly all wkend either and its tough figuring out what he needs. Most of his naps have been in his new carseat.


----------



## Noelle610

Aw poor F. Ear infections are the worst!

A tough night here last night. Bed at 7:30pm and then wakings at 11:30pm, 12:30am and 5am. Yuck.

I think Charlotte was a little overtired/overstimulated. We had a great day, but did so much. We played at the JCC in the morning, she had a babysitter in the afternoon so that DH and I could have some alone time and they went to the park and had a picnic and then my best friend and her 8 month old came over that evening. They hung out while I gave C her bath and I just don't think she had time to wind down. I was getting spoiled with good nights! Hopefully it was just a fluke.


----------



## bananaz

*Sunnie* - WW37 was rough for us too :( Hang in there.

*NotNic*- Aww poor baby. I hope you get it sorted out.

*Noelle* - Sorry for the tough night, but I'm sure it was just a fluke!


So normally Elsie has around 2 hours of naps total per day, but yesterday her first nap lasted 2.5 hours (would've been longer if I hadn't had to wake her), and then she had another 45 minute nap in the afternoon. Anyway, I thought since she'd gotten so much daytime sleep it might be a good day to try out a slightly later bedtime and see if it solved the early waking problem. All I can say is - big mistake! And she still woke at 5:30am. Ugh :coffee:


----------



## mellyboo

I cant wait for the day's my baby can wake up go make some cereal and stay infront of the tv until i wake up in about an hour more of sleep.. sounds bad i kno LOL!!


----------



## Noelle610

mellyboo said:


> I cant wait for the day's my baby can wake up go make some cereal and stay infront of the tv until i wake up in about an hour more of sleep.. sounds bad i kno LOL!!

LOL me too! I was always an early riser as a kid, but I remember getting up at 5:30am and popping in a video and just hanging out until the rest of the family got up. 

My mom and dad always slept in on Saturdays. They said they were "talking about our Christmas presents" so that my brother and I would leave them alone, but I'm pretty sure they were lying sex:)


----------



## bananaz

Noelle610 said:


> mellyboo said:
> 
> 
> I cant wait for the day's my baby can wake up go make some cereal and stay infront of the tv until i wake up in about an hour more of sleep.. sounds bad i kno LOL!!
> 
> LOL me too! I was always an early riser as a kid, but I remember getting up at 5:30am and popping in a video and just hanging out until the rest of the family got up.
> 
> My mom and dad always slept in on Saturdays. They said they were "talking about our Christmas presents" so that my brother and I would leave them alone, but I'm pretty sure they were lying sex:)Click to expand...


:rofl:

Unfortunately I'm guessing that once I start school/work I'm going to have to get up at 5 or earlier whether LO is awake or not so my days of sleeping in until daylight may be gone permanently :cry:


----------



## socitycourty

Noelle610 said:


> mellyboo said:
> 
> 
> I cant wait for the day's my baby can wake up go make some cereal and stay infront of the tv until i wake up in about an hour more of sleep.. sounds bad i kno LOL!!
> 
> LOL me too! I was always an early riser as a kid, but I remember getting up at 5:30am and popping in a video and just hanging out until the rest of the family got up.
> 
> My mom and dad always slept in on Saturdays. They said they were "talking about our Christmas presents" so that my brother and I would leave them alone, but I'm pretty sure they were lying sex:)Click to expand...

lmao!!!!!!!! you never understand it till you have your own kid. then it's like a lightbulb goes off :dohh:


----------



## VikkiD

Taking the dummy away was the best thing we did why did I not do this sooner. Last night Daniel did 7:30 till 2am I gave him is teddy an he went back sleep till 5am then he was moaning a little then going back sleep till 6:15


----------



## Noelle610

Yay Vikki!


----------



## Shadowy Lady

i've missed so much and I think I was away for 4 days only, lol!

Things are good here. Sofia has slept through every night (7 pm to 7 am) for the past week or so with occasional stirring at around 5 am. She self soothes within 15 mins or so though. I'm also sleeping slightly better. Still on 1/2 Ativan 3 times a week but sleeping ok on nights I don't take it as well. My plan is to wean myself off it by end of this month completely.

Now I gotta go back and read all I missed :D


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## Shadowy Lady

Sunnie - I think we had WW37 at 32 weeks and are kinda over the hump now. Hopefully it passes soon for Seren 

NotNic - awwww sorry about your LO's ear infection. I hear that those really mess up with sleep :(

Socity - I'm angry at the whole world when I'm sleep deprived. I also get pissed off when someone tells me they slept like 10 hours when I only had 2 :/


----------



## seaweed eater

LO was up at 5 this morning after DH tried to settle him (not a great night and he'd eaten very soon before, so wasn't hungry). I tried too afterward but he was just too stimulated. This has happened before. :dohh: DH used to be able to settle him, but not recently. How do we work on this? I'm guessing that we need to try earlier in the night so that he's more likely to go back to sleep and we're less likely to just give up? The problem is that earlier in the night he usually sleeps for longer so it's more likely that he's actually hungry...


----------



## MiniKiwi

Notnic - hope your LO is feeling better soon :hugs:

Bananaz - hope you enjoyed the nice, long nap, at least! Sorry you had a rough night

Noelle - ugh! Isn't it awful when things go backwards?! Hoping Charlotte was just super excited and has a better night tonight

Well I'm so disappointed, we've had a couple of shit nights and I have no idea why. Last night I think Mia was up 5 or 6 times and up for the day at 5am only to cry and whimper until she went back to bed for an hour at 6am :nope: WHYYYYYYYYY?! Nothing has changed, it's like she just wants to make me sad :haha:


----------



## bananaz

Not a great night :coffee: She woke at 10, 3:30 and 5. At 3:30 I stood there patting her back for nearly an hour before I realized that it just wasn't going to happen and I either needed to feed her or let her CIO. So I fed her. She's going through a crazy growth spurt right now and eating nonstop during the day so I'm hoping that that's the issue and it will be back to normal quickly.

Noelle, how is Charlotte doing with those naps? Has she stuck with just the one? Yesterday was the second day in a row where Elsie's first nap lasted over two hours but I couldn't get her to take a cat nap in the afternoon so she ended up being awake for over 7 hours before bed. I'm sure that didn't help the nighttime situation either...


----------



## socitycourty

i think hadley is already trying to only have one daytime nap. her sleep is all over the place again though. i give up!


----------



## bananaz

MiniKiwi said:


> Notnic - hope your LO is feeling better soon :hugs:
> 
> Bananaz - hope you enjoyed the nice, long nap, at least! Sorry you had a rough night
> 
> Noelle - ugh! Isn't it awful when things go backwards?! Hoping Charlotte was just super excited and has a better night tonight
> 
> Well I'm so disappointed, we've had a couple of shit nights and I have no idea why. Last night I think Mia was up 5 or 6 times and up for the day at 5am only to cry and whimper until she went back to bed for an hour at 6am :nope: WHYYYYYYYYY?! Nothing has changed, it's like she just wants to make me sad :haha:

Yeah, you should really read Ferber's book, there's a whole chapter on babies who sleep poorly because they want to make their moms sad :winkwink: Anyway, I totally know what you mean, sometimes it really does seem personal lol. I hope last night was better for you.


----------



## bananaz

socitycourty said:


> i think hadley is already trying to only have one daytime nap. her sleep is all over the place again though. i give up!

:hugs: I hate these transitional times. The minute you think you've got a loose routine established they go changing everything!


----------



## socitycourty

oh yeah it feels personal at times. a few times a week I find myself asking Hadley, why are you doing this to me!?!?!?!?!


----------



## Noelle610

It does feel personal. I think it's because we feel it's a reflection on our parenting skills (which it's not!).


----------



## NotNic

Hey. Finlay, OH and I had a little disagreement this morning. 5.30am is not wake up time and this mummy is fed up of it and fed up of being the one who has to sort it. So...we just kept putting him back to sleep - 5.30, 5.50, 6.10, 6.40 and then he slept until 7.20! The change in him at our baby group was incredible. Soo happy and bubbly. Happy to explore on his own and not clingy at all. Seriously seems like Finlay has just gotten into a bad habit. I doubt very much he'll ever be a child that lies in, but I'll be happy to be stricter from now on about when we get up, especially when he's napping badly. 

The dr doesn't think there is anything wrong with his ears. Just very sensitive to teething and she told me to keep giving him calpol until the pain eases. The last two teeth are quite slow at coming down and now the bottom gums look tender again. When will it end - hey?!


----------



## Boo44

Aww notnic we are suffering here too! Jack has bilateral conjunctivitis :( And a snuffly nose. He also has the remnants of last week's awful hacking cough. Oh aaaand he just keeps sprouting teeth - 5 in the last 9 days!! His cheeks are on fire lol

To cap it all off we're on holiday with BIL and SIL and their kids - 3yrs and 20months. Jack is in his own room and we've kept his whole routine the same. Last night he sttn until 6.15. I was gutted he woke that early as over the last 2 wks or so he's taken to going until 7 or even longer regularly! But I suppose that given all his illnesses I should count my lucky stars??

My SIL was up last night with her 20 month old from 3.30am until almost 6am with a MOTN party!! Apparently this is kinda normal occurance for them. Although she was gutted as she had been having some sttn recently. She then did sleep until 8.30 though

Got me thinking which is preferable? Sttn but awful early mornings or waking MOTN and then sleeping until a nice time? Food for thought! Think I'll stick with what I've got! Xxx


----------



## Boo44

Aww notnic we are suffering here too! Jack has bilateral conjunctivitis :( And a snuffly nose. He also has the remnants of last week's awful hacking cough. Oh aaaand he just keeps sprouting teeth - 5 in the last 9 days!! His cheeks are on fire lol

To cap it all off we're on holiday with BIL and SIL and their kids - 3yrs and 20months. Jack is in his own room and we've kept his whole routine the same. Last night he sttn until 6.15. I was gutted he woke that early as over the last 2 wks or so he's taken to going until 7 or even longer regularly! But I suppose that given all his illnesses I should count my lucky stars??

My SIL was up last night with her 20 month old from 3.30am until almost 6am with a MOTN party!! Apparently this is kinda normal occurance for them. Although she was gutted as she had been having some sttn recently. She then did sleep until 8.30 though

Got me thinking which is preferable? Sttn but awful early mornings or waking MOTN and then sleeping until a nice time? Food for thought! Think I'll stick with what I've got! Xxx


----------



## Boo44

Oops sorry double post - the reception isn't good here and I wasn't sure it worked the first time!


----------



## socitycourty

poor jack!!!!!! :hugs:


----------



## Noelle610

Poor Jack! 5 teeth in 9 days? That is CRAZY!

I'd take STTN/early wake-up over MOTN party/sleep in any day of the week.


----------



## socitycourty

yes, MOTN party is a real killer. I'd rather have that chunk of sleep then be forced to wake up in the middle of the night and then stay up :wacko:


----------



## bananaz

Noelle610 said:


> I'd take STTN/early wake-up over MOTN party/sleep in any day of the week.

Totally agree. Elsie's recent pattern has been STTN 7:30pm-5:30am and while I hate that early wakeup it was still waaaay better than last night when she was up for an hour at 3:30am and then slept in until 6:30am. If there's one thing having a bad sleeper has taught me, it's the value of uninterrupted sleep!


----------



## bananaz

Boo44 said:


> Aww notnic we are suffering here too! Jack has bilateral conjunctivitis :( And a snuffly nose. He also has the remnants of last week's awful hacking cough. Oh aaaand he just keeps sprouting teeth - 5 in the last 9 days!! His cheeks are on fire lol


Oh my gosh, poor thing! Well maybe he's getting all of this stuff out of the way at once so he'll have a nice long stretch of healthy, teething-free time soon?


----------



## Shadowy Lady

yep I take sttn and early wakeup over MOTN party as well. MOTN's are the worst!

Boo - OMG that's a lot of teeth! Poor Jack! Sofia still has no teeth yet her sleep gets messed up randomly...I'm scared of the nights we will have when teeth are coming :/

Bananaz - aaaa the 3:30 am MOTN must have been a killer. Hope you rest well tonight.

Things were bad here last night. Sofia had a bit of diarrhea which has cleared mostly but then she woke up this morning at 3:30 am crying and whining. We finally checked on her after 20 mins and noticed she had pooped (which hadn't happened in 3 weeks or so). After being changed, she took another 1.5h to go down finally. Then this morning I noticed poor thing has a diaper rash :( She has never had one before and now screams everytime her diaper is wet and during diaper change :( 

I took her to the doc and she said that the rash cream should take care of it in a few days but for now things are shitty! She's been asleep since 6:30 pm and it's now 10 pm but I know she will wake up at some point due to diaper burn poor thing. This is the most I've ever heard her cry on a given day since she was born. It's just been heart breaking for me :'(


----------



## gaiagirl

Poor baby!!!!!!! I recommend naked tummy time!!!!


----------



## seaweed eater

Wow, poor Jack :hugs: I hope his mouth gets some respite soon!

And poor Sofia! :hugs: hope the rash clears up soon. Poor babies and poor mamas!

I went to baby group today for the first time in a few weeks and everyone stared at me in horror and pity when I described the nap transition we are going through. :p Apparently they all have perfect nappers! For real. But what did make me feel better is that I asked one of them with a baby about Munchkin's age to describe her nap routine, and it was, in every detail, exactly the same as ours...so, clearly, different babies are different.

There was also a discussion of CIO that you guys might have found interesting. The consensus among those who have tried it (which was all of the moms of babies > 8 months) was that the name is unfair, and that it should be renamed "giving your baby the wonderful gift of sleep." :haha:


----------



## VikkiD

Lo slept well Monday night I had one moan out if him around 2 gave him his teddy an he went back sleep till 6. Last night he went bed 7:15 was awake for an hour from 1.20 tried teddy,bottle, calpol as his cheeks were burning nothing settled him so I sat for 20 mins on the rocking chair will him an he went sleep heard him again around 3.30 but he settled himself till 6:30


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## Boo44

Yes he only had his bottom front two for the last 2 months. Then all of a sudden got his top front 4 and an extra one next to the bottom two! Has totally changed his appearance lol. 

I agree with you all that motn parties sound much worse! I just need to be smart and go to bed early so that I still get a good stretch of sleep before he's up! We have to have the monitor this wk on holiday as he's on a different floor to us. I have to say I haaate having a monitor on!! It makes a static noise every time he so much as breathes and totally disrupts my sleep!


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## Noelle610

Charlotte is sleeping a-okay, but for some reason I keep waking at like 3:30am/4am and can't go back to sleep! I am sooo tired. I'm just ready not to be tired anymore for whatever reason blah.


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## polaris

I don't want to jinx myself but for the last few nights I have been getting Clara up when she wakes 45 minutes after bedtime, i.e. treating it like a third nap instead of bedtime. I've been putting her back down again by 8.30. It could be a fluke but she has been sleeping so much better on this schedule! It goes against everything you read about early bedtimes being better, but with the late third nap at about 6 p.m. and bedtime at 8.30, she has been sleeping straight through till 7 with only one waking for a feed!

She'll probably be up every hour again tonight though, now that I've said she's sleeping better. LOL. I think she is actually teething now, I can feel one of her bottom teeth under the gum.


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## Noelle610

That's great Polaris!


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## charlie15

That's great Polaris! Hope it stays like that for you.

I also hate MOTN parties, I think it's because there's so little that you can do about them.

Sorry about nappy rashes, teething babies and poorly ones. Seaweed, seriously all of them said their babies had no sleep problems! What a lucky bunch!

Noelle, yey for good nights! But sorry you're not sleeping well, that happened to me last night which was my night off! Boo. 

Naps with S are getting better, but now getting her to sleep has got harder! She use to be out like a light at 7 pm but since tackling naps she no longer is like that! Now it's more common that it takes ages to get her to sleep! I don't know, I'm thinking it's a developmental thing, she'll be 6 months in 2 weeks and seems to be developing so much recently. Other than that nights are the same with one feed waking before midnight and then random wake ups after that. However tonight my OH managed to get her to sleep without the dummy :) am hoping it makes a difference tonight!


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## MiniKiwi

Poor Sofia :( Keep her nappy off as much as possible, just letting her bum dry off after a wet wipe is good too. Lots of cream should clear it up in a day or two. I hate nappy rashes!

Noelle, hope you get a better sleep tonight :hugs: You deserve that!

I'm another that'd take the early waking over a motn party..any day of the week! I despise motn parties :growlmad:

We had a good night last night, bed at 7:30pm, wake up briefly at 10:45 and 2am and up for the day at 5:30. I'm so looking forward to the day that she can just get herself up and grab some breakfast and watch cartoons :haha:


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## seaweed eater

Polaris, that's wonderful news!! :thumbup: Babies are so different from one another. Trial and error is always scary but it sounds like it really worked for you in this case! I'm glad!

Noelle, hope you have a better night tonight :hugs:

Charlie, how'd it go after your LO settled with dad? Did that make a difference?

Mini, glad things are going well :thumbup:

I really need to find a way to extend LO's naps. His teachers at daycare expressed concern today about how fussy he's been this week. They are not sure why but they said they assume it's from the napping stuff. He had two 50-min naps and a late mini nap today, which I would have said was pretty good, so clearly this schedule is not working for him quite yet. But I swear he wants those long wake times and seems undertired if I try to put him down earlier. Argh! I've never been able to extend his naps by trying to sooth him back to sleep, because he wakes up bright eyed and cheerful. Wake to sleep "worked" once out of seven times I've tried it, but I think it was a coincidence (and it backfired twice). I'm out of ideas. Do I just have to wait until he starts napping for longer on his own?

Poor guy. :(

I'm feeling really tired today. A good night would be nice.


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## bananaz

MiniKiwi said:


> We had a good night last night, bed at 7:30pm, wake up briefly at 10:45 and 2am and up for the day at 5:30. I'm so looking forward to the day that she can just get herself up and grab some breakfast and watch cartoons :haha:

You know we're going to have the kids who wake up early and come jump on us until we get up with them on the weekends, right? There's no way we're going to get away with cartoons and making their own breakfast :rofl:


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## bananaz

seaweed eater said:


> I really need to find a way to extend LO's naps. His teachers at daycare expressed concern today about how fussy he's been this week. They are not sure why but they said they assume it's from the napping stuff. He had two 50-min naps and a late mini nap today, which I would have said was pretty good, so clearly this schedule is not working for him quite yet. But I swear he wants those long wake times and seems undertired if I try to put him down earlier. Argh! I've never been able to extend his naps, because he wakes up bright eyed and cheerful. Wake to sleep "worked" once out of seven times I've tried it, but I think it was a coincidence (and it backfired twice). I'm out of ideas. Do I just have to wait until he starts napping for longer on his own?
> 
> Poor guy. :(
> 
> I'm feeling really tired today. A good night would be nice.


I was never able to extend naps except when my LO was super teeny, I just had to wait it out unfortunately. The good news is that your baby is getting to the age when daytime sleep should start to organize and consolidate, but it will probably take some time before it becomes consistent. Hang in there :hugs:


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## polaris

Seaweed eater - DS was an awful short napper between 4 and 6 months (45 minute naps but waking still tired and cranky) and I was never able to extend his naps despite trying everything. He started napping for longer stretches at about 6.5 months, I didn't do anything different, it just happened naturally so I think in his case it was just developmental. Fingers crossed your LO will start napping for longer stretches soon.

Clara went through a phase of ultra-short napping too (20 minute naps) but I think for her it was related to general over-tiredness and not being able to get to sleep or stay asleep and it resolved pretty much immediately we started sleep training.

The one thing I have learned from having two kids is that they really are all different and apparently similar problems (e.g. short napping) can have totally different causes and different solutions!


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## Leids

Anyone have any information on getting little one's to sleep in a crib after bedsharing for almost 11 months? :haha:

He's waking very frequently (but going back to sleep). I honestly think he would do better in a crib. 

Problems I'm having:
*The crib is firm, our mattress is not firm. I think this is a big one. If I put him down in his crib, he realizes a difference immediately. Any ways to make the crib not firm? I put a blanket underneath the sheet to try to make it a little softer but it didn't quite work out. Not worried about SIDS as he's pretty much entirely past that.
*Waking up and not seeing me. Has anyone overcome this issue? I was debating getting him a doll (or something with eyes that looks human like) for him to sleep with.
*He's used to falling asleep nursing, and not being moved afterwards. I think this is a somewhat big one. He can and does occasionally fall asleep without being nursed though and being rocked. He does not self settle. If I start CC/PuPd in his crib then I'm afraid he's going to have negative associations with it and never sleep there. If I do any sleep training then I'll need it to be after he's transitioned to the crib.

We're about to move and right now my DH and I sleep in 2 separate beds. we won't have the luxury of doing that once we move unless he sleeps on the couch, which is mean. I would prefer not to bedshare because DH smokes (very much trying to get him to quit atm) and because the bed simply isn't big enough. We could splurge and buy a king sized bed but with buying a house I don't want to crack into my savings much more right away!


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## Noelle610

Hi neighbor!

Honestly, I think he needs to learn to self-settle. This is a great article:

https://www.troublesometots.com/what-you-need-to-know-about-sleeping-through-the-night-part-i/



> Let&#8217;s put this in perspective. Imagine going to bed in your bedroom. A few hours later you wake up on your front lawn. Would you simply roll over and go back to sleep in the grass? Or would you stand up and start screaming? Would you demand loudly to be let back into the house so that you could sleep in your bed? Do you think you would be freaked out by the mysterious force that somehow carried you out to the lawn?
> 
> Your baby is reacting to the surprise of finding out that the circumstances they observed when falling to sleep is no longer the circumstance they are finding when they wake up. There are lots of different surprises that can result in a baby who wakes up all night long.
> 
> 
> Putting baby down 100% asleep
> Pacifier use &#8211; fell asleep in mouth, wake up not in mouth
> Mobiles or other timed devices &#8211; on when fell asleep, off when wake up
> Music used at bedtime but not played all night long
> Mommy/Daddy stay in room till baby falls asleep but then sneak out
> 
> Now you and your baby are up all night. Even worse, their longest window of uninterrupted sleep probably occurs before you even go to bed so now you are literally up all night.

You can pick any method of sleep training you want, but CIO/CC will have the quickest results. I don't think you'll create negative sleep associations. I have many friends who have used this methods and their kids sleep just fine. You might want to try and get him used to the crib first while awake - maybe play with him in there and make it fun. I also think a lovey is a great idea. My daughter has a little blankey that she cuddles. Create those positive assocations first and then teach him to fall asleep on his own.


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## Noelle610

Our night was shitty. Charlotte is really congested and she half-woke multiple times. On top of that, bedtime as been such a fight lately. She's been throwing all of her stuff (blankey, pacifiers, etc) out of her crib, screaming and then laughing when I come in to "save" her. It's very frustrating because I work a really long day and after bedtime is my time to relax and enjoy some alone time with my husband. 

I know it could be so much worse. As I was putting her back down at 4am, I thought, "Don't complain, because you know just how bad this could be". But the truth is I am still tired and really feel the need for some alone time. I just need a break. Sorry, feeling a bit down today.


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## bananaz

Noelle610 said:


> Our night was shitty. Charlotte is really congested and she half-woke multiple times. On top of that, bedtime as been such a fight lately. She's been throwing all of her stuff (blankey, pacifiers, etc) out of her crib, screaming and then laughing when I come in to "save" her. It's very frustrating because I work a really long day and after bedtime is my time to relax and enjoy some alone time with my husband.
> 
> I know it could be so much worse. As I was putting her back down at 4am, I thought, "Don't complain, because you know just how bad this could be". But the truth is I am still tired and really feel the need for some alone time. I just need a break. Sorry, feeling a bit down today.

:hugs: I always feel really down and depressed after a rough night. What happens when you don't "save" her? Does she just immediately escalate?


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## bananaz

We had an interesting night. LO went down at 7:40pm and got up a couple times between 3-5am screaming bloody murder, only to suddenly go quiet and lay back down after less than a minute. She's done this several times earlier in the week too. I'm wondering if it's night terrors, or maybe teething-related? 

Anyway, she ended up sleeping until 6:30am, an hour later than usual! :shock: And for once she actually seems happy and well-rested this morning. I would loooooove it if she made a habit of this, but I'm pretty sure it was a one-off.


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## Noelle610

bananaz said:


> Noelle610 said:
> 
> 
> Our night was shitty. Charlotte is really congested and she half-woke multiple times. On top of that, bedtime as been such a fight lately. She's been throwing all of her stuff (blankey, pacifiers, etc) out of her crib, screaming and then laughing when I come in to "save" her. It's very frustrating because I work a really long day and after bedtime is my time to relax and enjoy some alone time with my husband.
> 
> I know it could be so much worse. As I was putting her back down at 4am, I thought, "Don't complain, because you know just how bad this could be". But the truth is I am still tired and really feel the need for some alone time. I just need a break. Sorry, feeling a bit down today.
> 
> :hugs: I always feel really down and depressed after a rough night. What happens when you don't "save" her? Does she just immediately escalate?Click to expand...

She'll go on and off. My DH and my mom friends all think I should just let her CIO. I really dont' want to go that route, but this is a clear issue of a kid who just doesn't *want* to go to sleep. It's not like anything is wrong. I'm not sure what we'll end up doing.

I just feel a bit discouraged.


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## bananaz

Noelle610 said:


> She'll go on and off. My DH and my mom friends all think I should just let her CIO. I really dont' want to go that route, but this is a clear issue of a kid who just doesn't *want* to go to sleep. It's not like anything is wrong. I'm not sure what we'll end up doing.
> 
> I just feel a bit discouraged.

Yeah, that is difficult. I wonder if you might get some good advice in the toddler section? I'm guessing this is not an uncommon issue for older babies. Of course you can't really explain a whole lot to an almost-11-month-old so that makes it more difficult.


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## Noelle610

bananaz said:


> Noelle610 said:
> 
> 
> She'll go on and off. My DH and my mom friends all think I should just let her CIO. I really dont' want to go that route, but this is a clear issue of a kid who just doesn't *want* to go to sleep. It's not like anything is wrong. I'm not sure what we'll end up doing.
> 
> I just feel a bit discouraged.
> 
> Yeah, that is difficult. I wonder if you might get some good advice in the toddler section? I'm guessing this is not an uncommon issue for older babies. Of course you can't really explain a whole lot to an almost-11-month-old so that makes it more difficult.Click to expand...

Very true! I'm going to try this now. Thanks!


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## seaweed eater

:hugs: I'm sorry, Noelle. I wish I had advice. All I can say is that I know how much pressure there is to CIO, but if that's not what you want to do, we will support you in your decision.

Leids :wave: I think the link Noelle posted is a good one. I just wanted to echo from personal experience that it really can actually be easier for them to learn to settle in one place than to be moved after they fall asleep. Best of luck. We had a hard time going from bassinet to crib so I'm sure bedsharing to crib is a whole other level of challenging. :hugs:


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## VikkiD

If I have angered anyone in this thread with my response in the parking thread I apologise. 

Daniel slept well a few moans out of him but no bottle an he got up at 5am but was tired really early so ended up having 3 naps.


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## bananaz

VikkiD said:


> If I have angered anyone in this thread with my response in the parking thread I apologise.
> 
> Daniel slept well a few moans out of him but no bottle an he got up at 5am but was tired really early so ended up having 3 naps.

Sounds like a pretty decent night, though 5am wakeups are never fun. Now I'm curious about the parking thread, haha


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## VikkiD

bananaz said:


> VikkiD said:
> 
> 
> If I have angered anyone in this thread with my response in the parking thread I apologise.
> 
> Daniel slept well a few moans out of him but no bottle an he got up at 5am but was tired really early so ended up having 3 naps.
> 
> Sounds like a pretty decent night, though 5am wakeups are never fun. Now I'm curious about the parking thread, hahaClick to expand...

Before you read it I apologise an admit yes I am wrong x


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## bananaz

VikkiD said:


> bananaz said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> VikkiD said:
> 
> 
> If I have angered anyone in this thread with my response in the parking thread I apologise.
> 
> Daniel slept well a few moans out of him but no bottle an he got up at 5am but was tired really early so ended up having 3 naps.
> 
> Sounds like a pretty decent night, though 5am wakeups are never fun. Now I'm curious about the parking thread, hahaClick to expand...
> 
> Before you read it I apologise an admit yes I am wrongClick to expand...

lol No worries, I am not easily offended :)


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## charlie15

Sorry noelle that you are feeling so bad, I seriously think chronic, long term sleep deprivation has made me see things on another level that I never understood before. I hope someone in the toddler section can give you some good advice.

Seaweed eater, interesting what you ask about Dad getting her to sleep. It caused me to just have a lightbulb moment! Previously I used to be able to get S down at bedtime like clockwork between 6.30-7pm. I came on here as she wouldn't nap. Now I can get 3 naps, mostly short ones of 30-50 minutes long, but I'll take that thank you very much! I can get her to sleep for those in 10 minutes. The problem now has changed to bedtime! No matter what I do, however fast and prompt, so not to over stimulate her, nothing works. The magical booby does nothing! I can rock her for ages and as soon as I out her down she screams. However for naps I rock her, put her down, she whimpers a little then I place my hand on her belly and off she goes to sleep! Anyway my lightbulb moment is as she is almost 6 months, clearly very aware of a lot now, I was wondering if she is holding out for dad to put her to bed, as he can do it no problem, where a few weeks ago, it was only me! I shall have to see what she's like on his days off. When he's at work if she goes to bed at 7 pm she won't see him at all. Hmmmm what do you think? Is it possible that babies can do that at her age??

Leids, I co sleep and OH is in the other room. I have started the transition to crib as I think it'll help my sleep to get back into my own bed and may help Sophia's. I have started using the cot for naps during the day, the next stage will be to get her to start the night in her cot, but as you can see that bit may have to wait as bedtimes are now a problem. But after that I would probably part time co sleep to start with, so cot and then if needed when she wakes would co sleep for half the night. When do you move house? How long do you have. I totally get why you don't want your baby in with your OH, I don't either at the moment but would consider it in future with a large bed if S really won't sleep the night in the cot.


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## Shadowy Lady

Noelle - sorry that you're having stressful time at bedtime. I know what you mean about being discouraged. I feel like that every other day. It's an ongoing sleep battle :(

Banana - glad to hear Elsie had a better night and later morning today. Did you get to sleep the same stretch?

Things here are still shitty. We had another MOTN from 2 am to 4 am :/ she had pooped and we changed her but she just would not go back down for hours. The MOTN's really kill me and she's done the same now three nights in a row. Her diaper rash seems to have cleared today though so hoping that last night was the end of no sleep.

I feel so discouraged too...we have one good week and then a really shitty one. 3 nights of less than 4 hours of sleep has been really tough...I keep getting into arguments with DH and then start to cry :(


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## polaris

Sorry to hear about all the bad nights.

Noelle, those bedtime games sound very draining. It is probably just a phase and she will get bored of it soon. When you go in to return the lovey, I wouldn't engage with her at all, don't make eye contact or talk to her. If you keep it really boring then the game will get boring for her quicker. I also wouldn't rush back in to return it. I don't mean let her get hysterical, but just don't go rushing in immediately to give it back to her. Just leave her five minutes or so and let her begin to realize that if she throws it out she doesn't have it. Also if there any way you could clip it onto the crib bars so she can't throw it? Don't know if that's possible or not.

Shadowy Lady - arrggh, why does it always go bad again after a good stretch? Clara is sleeping a bit better this week but I just know it isn't going to last. It does get so discouraging. Baby sleep is just like a puzzle that you just can't solve!

Things here are good - after a few days of very late naps and late bedtimes, Clara took a third nap today from 4.45 to 5.30 and was asleep by 7.15 and hasn't woken up yet. I wonder if we are back to three naps again for the moment - and if so, maybe some of our difficulties were due to having dropped the third nap too soon? The annoying thing is that if we are back to three naps, then we'll have to go through the transition to two naps in another month or so, so as soon as I get her into a good routine it will all change again! :dohh:


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## Radkat

I think I need to join this discussion. My LO is 6 mo. Over the past month she's been up anywhere from 3 (unusual) to 8 times a night. She is breastfed and we introduced solids about 10 days ago at 6mo, but she is only getting one meal a day around 7pm. Her naps are not good, usually 3x 20 minutes, but gets an hour nap about 1x/week. Used to nap in the stroller, but hasn't done that the last few walks we've taken. OH stays with her during the day and says she won't resettle after waking up and seems awake and happy when she does wake up. 
Our schedule is:
7:45ish - Start bedtime routine - change diaper, into pjs, story, feed, bed. (I know, I know. I need to not feed her last. I working on it.) She's not asleep when I put her in her cosleeper, drowsy though. Started the sleep phrase a few nights ago.
From here, it's a crap shoot. She usually has an active time during the night, but it switches up. Sometimes it's right after she goes to bed, sometimes the middle of the night, sometimes in the early morning. Active time is her waking up and needing to be resettled by me or OH. Sometimes shush and pat works, more often she needs to be picked up and resettled. 
I feed her 3x/night. Usually 12 or 1am, 3 or 3:30, then 4:30 or 5:30, when she really won't resettle. When she's fed, she goes right back down. Up for the day usually around 7.
Oh and she's teething. 2 teeth in the last 10 days. Any suggestions are appreciated.


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## NotNic

Ah Vikki don't worry. Whether someone agrees or not, there's no excuse for nastiness and they could have been much more polite in disagreeing with you. No ill feeling here Hun. x

The early mornings are kicking our butts still however I did get OH to settle him this morning. Yay! Also he's pretty much sleeping through though twice last night he moved to sleep against the headboard setting off the movement sensor. :dohh: 

He's also wanting to have two naps again. I'm really confused. Like Jack, Boo, Finlay's had a lot of teeth come through. All of the top four are now broken through and travelling down. He's still tugging on his ear and he's got nappy rash from the yucky nappies. :( Hope Jack is perkier now.

Noelle - sorry to hear you're having a bad patch. I wouldn't do CIO with Finlay as he escalates, but I would start slowing my response time down with him and just be consistent with the no eye contact / no cuddle / laying back down / walking back out. I'm pretty sure they know that it gets reactions from us but by responding the same way each time I'm hoping it becomes boring and not worth him staying awake for. (Fingers crossed!)


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## NotNic

Wow Radkat there's a lot going on for your lo! I think it'll probably be easier if you tackle one or two issues first. Do you want to begin night weaning, teaching self-soothing or naps first?


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## Radkat

Thanks for the validation, NotNic. I feel like it's a lot too! It's hard to know which thing to tackle first. I've already started to night wean a bit, working on that middle feeding. I'm reducing the number of minutes she feeds, so far from 7-10 minutes, now we're down to 4 minutes during the 3am feeding.

I feel like naps are an issue, but I have less control over those since OH is home with her during the day. He said he would discuss whatever I think is appropriate, but he definitely thinks it's less of a big deal than I do. He's more in wait in out mode. Oh and he walks her to sleep for the naps. 

Self soothing is also a good goal. She can do it sometimes, but not consistently. There are a few wakeups during the night that she can get herself back to sleep, but others that she can't. 

Any thoughts on a good place to focus first?


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## NotNic

Hmm Noelle really is the expert here and I'm sure she'll have a good action plan. In my novice's opinion I'd say introducing good habits will make tackling the bigger steps easier. Your bedtime routine sounds pretty good to me and its good that you can put lo down drowsy and you don't have to put them down asleep. It sounds like your lo could be a good self soother but just needs the practice. Try to encourage your baby to nap without extra support from mum and dad - so avoid patting, rocking, walking with her to get her to sleep, in a place you really want her to sleep. You can still try those things if she's upset, but I think there's a big difference between a baby grumbling about a change in routine to one that screams. If you're comfortable with it let your baby chatter or whimper to itself and see where it goes. You can always resettle your lo or reassure her that you're there by putting your hand on her tummy / back, but see if she'll fall asleep without you having to do anything. Being consistent whenever she goes to sleep will help. A lovey / blanky toy might help her to settle too. My son is very tactile and loves to stroke or nuzzle his blanky toy or a muslin and whenever I see his sleep cues and we're not at home I give him his toy so he can lull himself to sleep. 

Well done on the night weaning. I think you're doing it the way most experts would recommend and you'll notice a big difference soon. Some of the ladies on here have done it recently. I think they might have some suggestions.


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## seaweed eater

Hi Radkat :hugs: I agree that it sounds like you have a few different things to tackle and self soothing might be a good place to start. But I'm really not an expert.

Out of more selfish curiosity, how has cutting down night feedings gone? Has your LO protested much? I would like to attempt that soon, but we nurse almost to sleep (like you) and mine gets upset when I take him off before he's done. Usually it prolongs things instead of shortening them. So I haven't been sure whether there's a way to do it without separately teaching other methods of settling. But it sounds like you've been able to make some progress? That is good to know. How long did it take to cut down to 4 minutes?

Here's my rant for the day. Naps were really good today :thumbup: but DH and I had someone over to watch LO starting 15 min after his bedtime so we could go out for dinner. We told her that he tends to whimper at the 45-min mark but 95% of the time doesn't even wake up, but to let us know if he does. Well, an hour and a half later, I get a text message saying he's been awake for an hour!! :growlmad: Fortunately we were already on the way home, but I was a little upset about it. Maybe I just need to loosen up, because he wasn't crying during that hour and she said she was even able to get him to sleep in her arms (just not into the crib). I just feel bad for him, because he's already struggling right now even without this kind of disruption...and a little nervous for what the next 24 hours will bring for me, too! :(


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## polaris

Well we had a dreadful night again last night! Awake for long stretches several times and clearly having problems resettling. I do think it may have been teething related this time though as I am pretty sure I can feel one of her bottom teeth under the gum.

Seaweed eater - I wouldn't worry too much about the disruption to routine. It's only a once off. I do know what you mean about being annoyed that you hadn't been told sooner, I am like this too, however I am slowly accepting that this is actually the control freak in me and that I do need to let go a little bit of needing to micro manage every second of my child's day. For me it is from the best of intentions in trying to make things as perfect as possible for LO but it's an impossible task to control every angle and I am trying to learn to loosen up about these types of situation. It's not the end of the world if his routine was disrupted a bit - and at least you got to enjoy your evening out without worrying about him. It would be different if he was really upset, obviously anyone would expect to be informed of that.


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## VikkiD

Sorry you had a bad night teething is so horrible. My lo as cut another tooth he slept great til 2 then was on and off all night he keeps turning on his tummy and then stocking his legs out the cot bars and getting stuck


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## CumbrianMummy

:hugs: It will get better. xx


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## Noelle610

Radkat said:


> I think I need to join this discussion. My LO is 6 mo. Over the past month she's been up anywhere from 3 (unusual) to 8 times a night. She is breastfed and we introduced solids about 10 days ago at 6mo, but she is only getting one meal a day around 7pm. Her naps are not good, usually 3x 20 minutes, but gets an hour nap about 1x/week. Used to nap in the stroller, but hasn't done that the last few walks we've taken. OH stays with her during the day and says she won't resettle after waking up and seems awake and happy when she does wake up.
> Our schedule is:
> 7:45ish - Start bedtime routine - change diaper, into pjs, story, feed, bed. (I know, I know. I need to not feed her last. I working on it.) She's not asleep when I put her in her cosleeper, drowsy though. Started the sleep phrase a few nights ago.
> From here, it's a crap shoot. She usually has an active time during the night, but it switches up. Sometimes it's right after she goes to bed, sometimes the middle of the night, sometimes in the early morning. Active time is her waking up and needing to be resettled by me or OH. Sometimes shush and pat works, more often she needs to be picked up and resettled.
> I feed her 3x/night. Usually 12 or 1am, 3 or 3:30, then 4:30 or 5:30, when she really won't resettle. When she's fed, she goes right back down. Up for the day usually around 7.
> Oh and she's teething. 2 teeth in the last 10 days. Any suggestions are appreciated.

Hey hun, welcome. What's her daytime schedule like, more specifically? What time does she wake and how often do you put her down for a nap? I think I would start working on that first. I suspect bedtime may be too late as well, especially if she's not napping for very long during the day.


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## Noelle610

Finally a good night here! Had to work late and daddy put Charlotte to bed. Out like a light at 6:45pm and STTN without a peep until 6am.


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## mellyboo

we are still having crappy nights, i'm starting to follow a new routine.. not sure if it's working she's teething i have one of her bottom one's poking through right now.. the other isn't out she always whimpers and crys in the night augh! even tho i give her tynole!


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## Noelle610

Teething is the worst! Why aren't babies born with teeth, seriously?


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## bananaz

Noelle610 said:


> Teething is the worst! Why aren't babies born with teeth, seriously?

Given how awful the first few weeks of breastfeeding were with a toothless baby I can't imagine how bad it would be if a newborn had a full mouth of teeth! Especially with the babies who need some time to perfect their latch. I don't think we would've survived as a species, lol :wacko:

But I agree... teething is awful. And it seems to go on foreeever.


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## Noelle610

bananaz said:


> Noelle610 said:
> 
> 
> Teething is the worst! Why aren't babies born with teeth, seriously?
> 
> Given how awful the first few weeks of breastfeeding were with a toothless baby I can't imagine how bad it would be if a newborn had a full mouth of teeth! Especially with the babies who need some time to perfect their latch. I don't think we would've survived as a species, lol :wacko:
> 
> But I agree... teething is awful. And it seems to go on foreeever.Click to expand...

Haha very true Bananaz. Maybe they could get all teeth in one day at like 6 months.


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## mellyboo

I know seriously, I helpless for her


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## Radkat

Thanks for the feedback. Last night was OK, not great. She went down pretty much awake and put herself to sleep in about 5-10 minutes. Up at 10pm, just needed a shush and pat. Fed her at 12:45. Up at 2:15am, would settle, then reawake off and on. OH walked her for a bit too, which settled her but she was up again. Finally at 3, I fed her which is a normal fed during the night. She slept until 5:45, quick feed, didn't want to go back to sleep, so into bed with us. Slept until 7:15. 

Seaweed eater - The night weaning is going OK. Sometimes she's fine when I detach her, sometimes not. Last night, during the 3am feed, I detached her at 4 minutes and she was not having it, so we fed for another 2 minutes and she was OK that time. So I figure it's 2 steps forward, 1 back. I've been doing this over the past week or so. 

Noelle - Daytime schedule is pretty baby led. She's up around 7am. OH watches her during the day. He says she almost always naps around 9, then around 12 and again around 2 or 3. Sometimes again if I take her on a walk after work around 5:30 or 6. But these naps are usually pretty short - 15-30 minutes. She's done this since about 3 months. She hasn't eaten well during the day for the past month or so. OH says most days, she'll eat a couple of ounces, then start playing with bottle. We're just starting to give her food during the day. She eats well when she nurses.


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## VikkiD

Noelle610 said:


> Finally a good night here! Had to work late and daddy put Charlotte to bed. Out like a light at 6:45pm and STTN without a peep until 6am.

Glad to hear you had a good night xx


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## Shadowy Lady

Shitty night here again :( was up from 2:30 to 3:45 am for no apparent reason. She hadn't even pooped this time. 

Aaaaand she's not even teething yet. Wtf are our nights gonna be like when that happens? This is just too much for me to handle right now. I need sleep :(


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## Radkat

Sorry for the crappy night, Shadowy Lady. I try to tell my LO that she's not missing anything in the middle of the night and I promise not to do anything fun, but that doesn't seem to help. :winkwink:
Your little girl is adorable, BTW.


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## Boo44

polaris said:


> Well we had a dreadful night again last night! Awake for long stretches several times and clearly having problems resettling. I do think it may have been teething related this time though as I am pretty sure I can feel one of her bottom teeth under the gum.
> 
> Seaweed eater - I wouldn't worry too much about the disruption to routine. It's only a once off. I do know what you mean about being annoyed that you hadn't been told sooner, I am like this too, however _ I am slowly accepting that this is actually the control freak in me and that I do need to let go a little bit of needing to micro manage every second of my child's day. For me it is from the best of intentions in trying to make things as perfect as possible for LO but it's an impossible task to control every angle and I am trying to learn to loosen up about these types of situation. _ It's not the end of the world if his routine was disrupted a bit - and at least you got to enjoy your evening out without worrying about him. It would be different if he was really upset, obviously anyone would expect to be informed of that.

Omg you just described my life....!


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## seaweed eater

Sorry Shadowy :hugs: I have the exact same thought about teething!! I hope it IS teeth for you one of these days so at least you can get that over with!


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## daneuse27

I just call everything `teething`these days.. :haha:

Hope it gets better polaris and shadowy lady!


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## seaweed eater

Oh me too Daneuse! Daycare teacher told me today that she too is surprised we haven't seen any teeth yet. That made me feel better :haha:

So DH and I discussed having LO learn to settle with DH. He's doing PUPD more or less, but neither of us is too bothered with self settling per se, just trying to teach LO other ways to be comforted aside from the boob.

It hasn't been fun, we're at 1 hour 3 mins and LO just threw up :( I'm just reminding myself that his daddy is in there with him...I just feel like this is something he should be able to do. Especially since he is able to settle at daycare. I'm glad we are not doing CIO or I would for sure have chickened out. But I still feel bad about it. Any support appreciated...


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## seaweed eater

Asleep at 1 hr 10 mins.


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## socitycourty

did he get sick from the crying? My LO was gagging when I tried CIO and I chickened, I can't stand the sound or smell or even sight of vomit.

An hour isn't bad. It is good IMO (although lots don't agree) that it is important to teach them to settle without boob. Otherwise you have to be there all the time and no one else can help you (which is ok most of the time but not in an emergency/if you're ill/need to go out) and it gets harder the older they get.

My friend was nursing a 3 year old near constantly because she wouldn't eat foods or drink cow milk and she couldn't go to bed without boob. I thought it seemed like a nightmare for my friend.

Good luck with the sleep!


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## VikkiD

My lo keeps shuffling up to the top of his cot rolling on his stomach and then turning across it so he gets stuck he did this constantly from 11:30 till 1:30 last night an when I went in this morning he was in the same position. I have noticed he as started to sleep on his side aswell.


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## NotNic

Shadowy you're almost about that point I was with Finlay, when suddenly he started sleeping again. Bang on 38 weeks things improved immensely for us. I don't know why but WW37 was painful for us and the point I came to you all for help. TBH teething hasn't made that much difference. Sometimes he cries out in pain and gets disrupted sleep but at least medicine and bonjela can help. Far better than the nights they are unsettled without an obvious reason. To be truthful we've had very few motn parties where he's awake more than ten minutes. Most of the time he settles easily but can wake umpteen times in the night so I feel like I'm constantly being dragged out of bed. On those nights just one longish wake up would be preferable to 7/8 trips.

Saying that last night was a dream. 8pm-7am and no wake ups! I feel like dancing! :happydance: I also managed to get him to do a 2 1/2 hr nap at 1.30pm with just a tiny car journey nod off mid morning. Perhaps that is the solution. Must try to recreate that every day. Haha!


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## mellyboo

Jordyn wouldn't nap yesterday at all barely she would take cat naps here and there and i had to put her in the car and even at that .. it was barely working she would wake after 30 mins of being in there sorta unusual car's usually a good way for her to nap when all else fails..

well she woke up ONCE last night woooo!!!!! i thought she would deff be up a zillion times from being over tired.


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## Noelle610

I missed a lot! OK, I'm back :)



> Noelle - Daytime schedule is pretty baby led. She's up around 7am. OH watches her during the day. He says she almost always naps around 9, then around 12 and again around 2 or 3. Sometimes again if I take her on a walk after work around 5:30 or 6. But these naps are usually pretty short - 15-30 minutes. She's done this since about 3 months. She hasn't eaten well during the day for the past month or so. OH says most days, she'll eat a couple of ounces, then start playing with bottle. We're just starting to give her food during the day. She eats well when she nurses.

I think I would try stretching her a bit during the day it hopes of longer naps. My DD transitioned to 2 naps around 6 months and that's a bit early, but it really improved night sleep. This is the age when babies start to get tired out of habit rather than necessity, so sometimes it takes a week or so to see results, but I think with a 7am waking I'd try naps at 9:30am and then again at 1pm. You could do an optional cat nap around 4pm if she doesn't sleep well and then an early-ish bedtime. 

Shadowy Lady, what's Sofia's daytime schedule like now? If she's having happy night wakings I do wonder if perhaps she's getting too much daytime sleep.


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## bananaz

*NotNic* - So glad you had a good night! I always try to recreate the days before good nights too, lol. It never works and I just drive myself crazy!

*mellyboo* - Hooray for only one night waking! I think as long as babies are getting some kind of sleep regularly during the day they won't get too overtired, even if it's only catnaps. I remember in the "90 minute Nap Solution" they said that anything over 10 minutes counted.

*seaweed eater* - Big hugs to you. I hope the rest of the night went better. The first night is the hardest. Once your LO realizes that he can go to sleep without the boob and that it's okay to be comforted by daddy things should be much easier.


Last night was Elsie's best night ever :happydance: She slept straight through from 7:40pm to 6:35am with only a single little peep at 3am (most people probably wouldn't have even heard it but I'm a light sleeper). 

It may be a coincidence but yesterday she had the biggest dinner of her life. She ate almost a whole CUP of macaroni and cheese, plus some fruit and veggie puree and a small bowl of rice cereal (yes, I give my almost-11-month-old rice cereal before bed, don't judge! :blush:). So now of course the plan is to force feed her truckloads of mac and cheese every night. Just kidding. (maybe :haha:)


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## Shadowy Lady

Radkat and seaweed - thanks ladies :)
Notnic - I really do hope so. I don't like the fact that I'm so tired that I'm not enjoying her as much these days.
Noelle - she has a 1-1.5 hour nap around 10 am and a 30-40 mins nap around 2:30. It doesn't seem like too much day time sleep, does it?

Last night was better. She cried out in her sleep for 10 mins at midnight and then again at 5:30am but otherwise she slept through. I still didn't though as once she woke me up at midnight I stayed up stressed out and nursing a headache till past 2am.

Ughhhhh can't wait for whatever this phase is to pass :(


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## Shadowy Lady

So happy for u Bananaz! I'm craving Mac n cheese now lol!!


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## seaweed eater

Thanks ladies :hugs:

Socity, yes he was sick...I don't blame you for chickening at that point. I think I would have done the same. Made me glad that I chose a method that I am willing to stick with. Still, I was feeling ok before but then felt much worse after :(

The night went fine afterward I guess...he woke to nurse twice and fell asleep promptly afterward so there was no re-settling drama. Naps today will be in the car so that he actually gets some sleep but also isn't nursing. So we'll see how tonight goes.

Vikki, mine has rotated almost 90 degrees too ever since he started sleeping on his side. In fact part of what he does to fall asleep in the crib is to push himself to a diagonal position. :p

NotNic, that sounds wonderful! :happydance: And bananaz, fantastic!! :yipee: And melly! So glad for all the good nights! Long may it continue!

Shadowy, hope Sofia grows out of whatever it is soon, too :hugs: and maybe that you at least get some teeth out of it!


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## seaweed eater

If hypothetically tonight is even worse than last night, do you think that means this approach is not working? From what I've read it's common for the third night to be worse than the second because they have an extinction burst, but it seems like the second night is usually better than the first...or is that not always the case? :( Too soon to say but 43 mins so far...


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## seaweed eater

Argh...63 mins and he's been quiet for a minute or so...just 7 minutes shorter. At least he wasn't sick tonight.


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## Sunnie1984

Seaweed - quick reply as I'm trying to contain my exhausted child! 

I think it takes at least a week if not two of a new method to see if its working. 

Even then you'll get the odd regression after that. 

Eventually they have to be able to settle without nursing, and you have decided that now is the right time for you as a family. 

I didn't breast feed so probably not in best position to advise, but I would keep going with any routine change for a couple of weeks to see if it helps. 

X


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## bananaz

seaweed eater said:


> Argh...63 mins and he's been quiet for a minute or so...just 7 minutes shorter. At least he wasn't sick tonight.

:hugs:


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## seaweed eater

Thank you ladies :hugs:


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## VikkiD

Lo as taken to sleeping on his tum it's so terrifying to go in there and see him face down. I change him back but he does it again I don't know if its got anything to do with his desperation to crawl. Last night he went bed around 7:45 an he was up at 7:45 this morning we did have about four wake ups where I just had to reposition him an he went back skeep


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## Noelle610

Seaweed you definitely need to give it a week. When we weaned my daughter off of all but 1 night feed the third night was the very worst. Next night she STTN with a dream feed.

Vikki, don't worry. Once they can roll on their tummies they're safe to sleep that way. I know it's seems scary, but many babies prefer this position once they figure it out.

Our night was okay. DH didn't put Charlotte to bed until 8pm (I was out with friends). He wanted to see if she'd sleep in haha. She slept pretty well until around 5am when she woke briefly (I gave her a pacifier) and then she woke again around 6am (her normal time). It's 6:30am now and I think she's snoozing. I really wanted to give her the opportunity to get her normal 11 hours. I think she's overtired. And of course I'm not "sleeping in" :haha:


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## mellyboo

so we woke up once again tonight :S dont no whats going on... how it went from 10 to 1 is beyond me! will see about tonight.

She's been resisting her naps all weekend too and sleeping better at night? odd child of mind ;)!! lol


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## Bean66

Noelle610 said:


> Seaweed you definitely need to give it a week. When we weaned my daughter off of all but 1 night feed the third night was the very worst. Next night she STTN with a dream feed.
> 
> Vikki, don't worry. Once they can roll on their tummies they're safe to sleep that way. I know it's seems scary, but many babies prefer this position once they figure it out.
> 
> Our night was okay. DH didn't put Charlotte to bed until 8pm (I was out with friends). He wanted to see if she'd sleep in haha. She slept pretty well until around 5am when she woke briefly (I gave her a pacifier) and then she woke again around 6am (her normal time). It's 6:30am now and I think she's snoozing. I really wanted to give her the opportunity to get her normal 11 hours. I think she's overtired. And of course I'm not "sleeping in" :haha:

What about babies that can roll on to tummy but not back again? My LO has perfected back to front rolling but not the other way. She does have good neck strength.


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## Noelle610

Bean66 said:


> Noelle610 said:
> 
> 
> Seaweed you definitely need to give it a week. When we weaned my daughter off of all but 1 night feed the third night was the very worst. Next night she STTN with a dream feed.
> 
> Vikki, don't worry. Once they can roll on their tummies they're safe to sleep that way. I know it's seems scary, but many babies prefer this position once they figure it out.
> 
> Our night was okay. DH didn't put Charlotte to bed until 8pm (I was out with friends). He wanted to see if she'd sleep in haha. She slept pretty well until around 5am when she woke briefly (I gave her a pacifier) and then she woke again around 6am (her normal time). It's 6:30am now and I think she's snoozing. I really wanted to give her the opportunity to get her normal 11 hours. I think she's overtired. And of course I'm not "sleeping in" :haha:
> 
> What about babies that can roll on to tummy but not back again? My LO has perfected back to front rolling but not the other way. She does have good neck strength.Click to expand...

It's still okay. It's really all about the neck strength. My DD learned to roll onto tummy probably a month before being able to go the other way. I think that's common :)


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## daneuse27

Noelles right. My mom tells me that its great once babies learn to roll on their tummies in their sleep (she raised 3 of them) and says they sleep great once they figure it out. Apparently they eventually crawl into the corner of the crib and wedge their head in there with their bum up in the air, and they are perfectly happy that way. Even though it doesnt look like a comfortable position to us :haha:


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## seaweed eater

GAHHHHH I AM SO UPSET. LO and I both woke up with a cold. This means we have to put it on hold, right? I thought the only upside to this was that at least we had the first two nights over with. Now we have to do it all again and if he makes the connection between his crying and our stopping, it will be even worse. This has been a NIGHTMARE.


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## socitycourty

seaweed eater said:


> GAHHHHH I AM SO UPSET. LO and I both woke up with a cold. This means we have to put it on hold, right? I thought the only upside to this was that at least we had the first two nights over with. Now we have to do it all again and if he makes the connection between his crying and our stopping, it will be even worse. This has been a NIGHTMARE.

:hugs: both times i tried sleep training hadley got sick. it is frustrating


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## bananaz

seaweed eater said:


> GAHHHHH I AM SO UPSET. LO and I both woke up with a cold. This means we have to put it on hold, right? I thought the only upside to this was that at least we had the first two nights over with. Now we have to do it all again and if he makes the connection between his crying and our stopping, it will be even worse. This has been a NIGHTMARE.

I don't think you have to stop, especially since you've already been doing it for a couple of days and his dad will be in there with him. Your call though, of course. I hope you two feel better soon!


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## Shadowy Lady

Seaweed - I agree with Bananaz, if you already started sleep training you don't have to stop. You know with babies there's always something on the way: teething, sickness, grumpiness hehehe....sending you a big hug and good luck!

Our night was better which I hope is a trend back to where we started. She slept from 7 pm to 4 am when she stirred for 5 mins and went back to sleep till 6 am. I was still pretty tired then so went and fed her and put her back in the crib. She proceeded to sleep till 8 am and so did I. I feel a lot more rested today which is great coz I have a lunch to go to and then have to visit my friend and her newborn in the afternoon.

Hope you ladies are all having a great weekend.


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## seaweed eater

Thank you :hugs: I just don't want to cause further stress and sleep deprivation when he's fighting something. And also, I'm not sure I'm really willing to commit to it knowing that he is feeling unwell.

Maybe we'll just keep trying other comforting techniques as well rather than going straight to nursing. But in a way that somehow doesn't reinforce him for protesting the other techniques, if that's possible. :wacko:


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## Sunnie1984

Hi ladies

I'm really sorry but I've not been able to respond to you lovely lot in the way you deserve, but I'm losing the will to live. 

Seren is cutting an upper tooth (her first) and last night and so far tonight has been crying every 30 mins or so. 

Paracetamol and ibuprofen aren't helping much, the pain seems to breakthrough after an hour. 

Plus she sucks her thumb to self soothe, so she's struggling to get to sleep at all. 

DH is away, so I'm rather fed up and depressed, so off to bed. Hardly seems any point though, as she'll be awake in 10 minutes.


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## seaweed eater

Sorry to hear that Sunnie :hugs: :hugs: sounds brutal. Hang in there!


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## Shadowy Lady

OMG Sunnie I'm so sorry:hugs: Hope this phase is over very soon


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## bananaz

Big hugs Sunnie. I hope the rest of your evening got better after your post :(


I think we had a nap breakthrough here today. LO has been going down fine for her morning nap but she's really been struggling with her afternoon one and for almost the entire past week I've had to go in to calm her down and pat her back before she'd fall asleep. 

Today I decided to start winding her down about 20 minutes before naptime - I changed her diaper, pulled the curtains, put on soft music and then I let her pick out 3 or 4 books that we read together. After that I started her normal nap routine (change into PJs, naptime book, etc) and then put her down. She protested for a couple minutes and then fell asleep on her own!

Anyway, for those of you with babies who tend to get worked up and overstimulated during the day and then fight naps, it might be worth trying a longer wind down. I'm not sure why I didn't think to try this sooner :dohh:


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## seaweed eater

Thanks, that is a good idea, Bananaz! :flower: Maybe we will try that. We do have a really long wind down before bedtime and he usually fights that a lot less, knock on wood, so maybe it would be good for naps as well.


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## Radkat

Had a couple of better nights. Up 4 times Friday night (9, 1, 3 and 5:30) and 3 last night (1, 4:30 and 6). The last one I brought her into bed to sleep a bit longer as she was getting fussy. She slept until 8am which is unusual and great. Trying to get her to self settle for naps too. She is still taking 3 per day. Hoping this keeps up. I also gave her some teething gel the last couple of nights. No idea if that helped too.


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## VikkiD

daneuse27 said:


> Noelles right. My mom tells me that its great once babies learn to roll on their tummies in their sleep (she raised 3 of them) and says they sleep great once they figure it out. Apparently they eventually crawl into the corner of the crib and wedge their head in there with their bum up in the air, and they are perfectly happy that way. Even though it doesnt look like a comfortable position to us :haha:

This is exactly what my lo is doing I got up to him three times to reposition him last night as he let out a cry but maybe I should have left him as he was in bed 7:30 till 7:30


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## Shadowy Lady

Bananaz - glad you're figuring out the nap situation. Can't believe Elsie has the patience to sit through 3-4 books. Sofia gets all fidgety after one, lol! Though she has no nap time routine just bedtime routine. For naps I just feed her, put her down with her stuffed toy and walk out.

Radkat - glad your nights have improved. May they continue on a positive trend for you.

last night was not so great but it wasn't too bad either. She slept through till 4:30 am and then had a mini MOTN till 5:00 am after which she proceeded to sleep till 7:15am. Luckily I was also only awake that 30 mins so I feel relatively rested.

I think from now on I will just ignore MOTN's when they do happen (which seems to be every other night)....she doesn't even cry really she's just whining in her sleep.


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## polaris

Hi everyone. My parents have been staying so I haven't really been on B&B. Our nights are still very up and down. We seem to have a good night and then a bad night. We had one night where she only woke at 10 and 2.30 which was brilliant for her. But the next night she was back to waking every couple of hours and was awake for over an hour at 3 a.m. Naps are brilliant though and she finally seems to be getting into a more predictable daytime routine of two long naps.


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## Noelle610

Welcome back Polaris!

Sleep is good here. Charlotte slept until 7:30am today and I had to wake her! No idea why... it was very odd, as she's usually up by 6am. She was in a great mood so I was happy.


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## seaweed eater

daneuse27 said:


> Noelles right. My mom tells me that its great once babies learn to roll on their tummies in their sleep (she raised 3 of them) and says they sleep great once they figure it out. Apparently they eventually crawl into the corner of the crib and wedge their head in there with their bum up in the air, and they are perfectly happy that way. Even though it doesnt look like a comfortable position to us :haha:

Mine just started rolling all the way onto his tummy (I think he wanted to make it before his 7 month birthday :lol:). Last night was the first night he slept on his tummy all night and he did sleep really well...but he also seemed alarmed when he woke up there stuck. Is that common as well? He's pretty strong so I think he'll figure out the other direction soon. I hope...


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## seaweed eater

Shadowy, ignoring MOTN sounds good to me, especially if she's not actually waking up :thumbup:

Noelle, glad you had a good night! What a luxurious late morning :p hope her good mood sticks around!

Polaris, it's great to hear that naps are improving for you :thumbup: I hope the nighttime sleep gets more consistent soon too.


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## Sunnie1984

Right, I finally have some time to actually reply properly on this thread! 

Hope you are all feeling ok ladies!

VikkiD - Seren slept on her tummy as soon as she could roll from back to front - she couldn't roll front to back. I spent one night constantly turning her over again, but she just refused to sleep on her back, so I gave up :haha: I have a movement monitor though, so I wasn't too worried. 

Mellyboo - I think teeth usually come in pairs, so if one is out, then the other one is probably following not far behind. Glad you are having much less wake ups during the night. 

Radkat - Noelle and eveyone else has covered all the advice I would give and much more besides :hugs: I hope you are better rested soon. 

Shadowy - Sounds like you are truly in the grip of WW37 with the MOTN parties. I agree that you should ignore her unless she is crying for you, Seren often wakes and babbles to herself, and if I go in, I get rewarded with a much longer waking that I would have gotten otherwise :dohh:

Seaweed - I think it's perfectly fine for your DH to continue to settle your LO even if he has a cold, it's not like you are doing CC or CIO, just teaching him to settle with someone else, it shouldn't get too messed up by a cold. 

Notnic - I am clutching to your promise about week 38 meaning better sleep!!! :haha: Sounds like you are having a lot of success! 

Bananaz - So glad you are having better nights, you definitely should keep feeding Elsie, if it actually helps her sleep :haha: Also great job with the naps - I have stolen your idea for night times! :haha:

Polaris - Glad naps are sorted if nothing else. Hopefully as the naps continue, night sleep should get more consistent :hugs:

Noelle - Great to hear Charlotte is sleeping well, and that you even got unexpected quiet time this morning! 


Weirdly, thing got a lot better for us last night. She suddenly decided to sleep 11:30-6am, and then carried on with the crying and sleeping every 10 minutes until 7:15am. 

I now have no idea if it is teething or WW or what. 

When your LO's got their upper front teeth, what did their gums feel like? I swear I can feel the teeth trying to come through, it's like a sharp ridge under neath her gums, but quite high up in her mouth. 

I stole Bananaz idea about winding down. Seren has had problems with that recently. So tonight when she had had enough milk, I turned out the light and put her next to me on the chair in her room, and put my hand on her chest. 

She lay there peacefully it took about 10 minutes for her to finally close her eyes, but she was very chilled about it all. 

I think she's been too wired before bed now she's properly crawling, so it's definitely made it easier to get her into bed. 

Now she is waking every hour, crying out for a couple of seconds and then going to bed. Which is an improvement on two nights ago. I'm hoping she'll fall properly asleep at 11:30 again, so at least I can get an undisturbed stretch. 

I can't turn the monitor off because she's too far away from our room, and even with my door open she can't be heard. 

So my conclusion is.... babies are weird, and I have no idea when she is teething or just having a bad day. 

Why can they not come with a manual! :dohh:


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## Noelle610

Ugh sunnie those brief wakings are killer! Even with my monitor off I can hear them.


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## Twister

Hey everyone, first post in this thread! I'm a bit lost and I don't know what to do. Just wondered if anyone else's LO has done this.

Getting LO to sleep has become a major battle recently, one that I am losing. She went from nursing to sleep and staying asleep when put down, to self soothing(literally just started doing it one day about 2 weeks ago), to now screaming and crying hysterically as soon as she's placed on her tummy in her cot. 

Oh is currently upstairs trying to settle her because I can't handle it anymore :( She does this for naps, at bedtime, and in the middle of the night. It's become impossible to get her to sleep. The only way she goes to sleep is from sheer exhaustion from all the crying. It's not just a little moan either, it's an actual, screaming "mummy im upset" cry.

Nothing I do works, if I pick her up she's usually fine, sometimes still cries because she's gotten so worked up. If we bring her downstairs she's happy as larry again. I try patting, stroking her head, rubbing her back. It makes no difference. She won't entertain her dummy, I find myself holding it in her mouth until she realises its there but most of the time she's too busy screaming. She absolutely refuses to sleep, I've even tried leaving her to cry, but i can only handle about a minute of it and it doesn't seem to make much difference. It takes well over an hour to get her to sleep now. My patience is being tested. And I'm ashamed to admit that I have shouted a couple of times out of pure frustration:(

Oh has given up. I'm now sitting on our bed with LO wondering what to do next. She's calm but doesn't look like sleeping any time soon, even though she's so tired.

Please help, I feel like we've tried everything:cry:


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## seaweed eater

Sunnie, I'm really glad to hear things got better for you! :thumbup:

I'm sorry Twister, I'm not sure :( maybe it will resonate for other ladies on this thread. My only thought is maybe LO is undertired? You said she is very tired when she starts crying. How do you know? Are you putting her down based on her cues or the clock, or some combination? My LO's napping pattern started shifting at about your LO's age to where he started wanting longer awake times. He still can't always nap for long enough to keep him from being cranky, but I've learned it doesn't do him any good if I try to put him down earlier. If you bring her downstairs and she's happy, how long does it take before she seems sleepy again?

Thanks everyone for the advice. We decided not to keep going with DH for now the way we were doing. It wasn't quite CC (though we were leaving him for a couple minutes when it seemed like what DH was doing wasn't calming him), but it was still making him really really upset, and he was losing at least an hour of sleep per night and obviously not napping great. We decided that DH will try, or I will try using non-nursing techniques, for up to 5 minutes of crying, and then if it doesn't seem to be working I'll nurse. I know we may be reinforcing him to cry for 5 minutes, but I don't really have too much of a problem with that when he cried for over an hour before, and a couple times it has actually worked. He did sleep really well last night, possibly by accident due to being on his tummy. I'm thinking tonight or tomorrow will be the really horrible cold night and then maybe we can think about getting back to work.


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## Twister

See I thought it was under tiredness (i posted a thread about it a few days ago) but it doesn't explain why she does it at bedtime when its most obvious she's tired. I try and follow her queues but also keep an eye on the clock, mainly because her queues can be easy to miss if I'm trying to do housework as well as entertaining her. 

When she's tired the main signs are eye rubbing and general grumpiness (I usually try and make sure she's not bored/hungry etc when she starts getting grumpy), also when I pick her up she will bury her head into my chest. She generally gets tired every 2 hours or so.

Finally got her to sleep at 9pm, ended up nursing her to sleep.

When we bought her downstairs earlier tonight, she was all smiles but within minutes was rubbing her eyes, burying her head and getting grumpy. Bring her back upstairs, cuddle, kiss, feed if she's hungry, put her in her cot ready to sooth her and she starts crying again. It's so confusing. Do you think I should try keeping her awake longer?


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## Shadowy Lady

Twister - have you tried any kinda sleep training? We did Ferber with our LO and after one rough nights, things improved significantly. Your LO is old enough to do sleep training now and they key is being consistent whatever method you chose and you need your hubby's help. I don't know if you're against sleep training or not but in my experience babies tend to cry less in the end coz they sleep better and moms are happier too.

Seaweed - Sofia started sleeping through once she figured out how to sleep on her tummy. She also dropped her night feeds around the same time (she was just a day over 6 months). Like I was telling Twister above CC works if you're consistent. I personally liked Ferber because of his interval checks (we did 1min, 3 mins, 5 mins and then 10 mins....we never had to go over 10 mins she always fell asleep and it took 2 nights). 

I have an interview tomorrow and feeling the sleep anxiety kicking in. I haven't taken an Ativan in over a week and Sofia has slept through the last 3 nights but I will still take one tonight. I need to be well rested for this.


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## Twister

I am seriously considering doing cc at some point, I wanted to wait a month or two but I don't think I can handle her crying so much EVERY time she goes to sleep, it's not good for any of us. Need to talk to oh about it first and do a bit more research on how to do it properly I think.


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## Noelle610

My daughter slept... wait for it... 0 minutes today! So I know she got up a little late and I thought she would skip the morning nap, but she wouldn't nap at all! I wonder what tonight will bring.


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## Noelle610

Twister said:


> I am seriously considering doing cc at some point, I wanted to wait a month or two but I don't think I can handle her crying so much EVERY time she goes to sleep, it's not good for any of us. Need to talk to oh about it first and do a bit more research on how to do it properly I think.

I highly recommend "Healthy Sleep Habits, Happy Child" if you're science minded. It's long, but you can just read the chapter on 5-12 month olds.

"Solve Your Child's Sleep Problems" - Ferber's book - often gets a bad rap, but he's really an expert.

Both of these men are pediatricians who run/ran sleep clinics, so even if you don't go the sleep training route they may be helpful reads.


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## Noelle610

Shadowy Lady said:


> I have an interview tomorrow and feeling the sleep anxiety kicking in. I haven't taken an Ativan in over a week and Sofia has slept through the last 3 nights but I will still take one tonight. I need to be well rested for this.

Good luck hun! Do what you need to do :thumbup:


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## Twister

Thanks, I might check those books out.

Oh is away on a stag do next weekend as well so he won't be able to take over when I need a breather. Wasn't too fussed when we first knew he was going but now I'm dreading it. How am I going to cope???


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## seaweed eater

Shadowy - thanks hon. I don't want to do straight CC at the moment, not because I don't think it would work, but because LO is clearly a very persistent baby who will protest any change really hard, so I want to proceed gently enough that I know for sure I can be perfectly consistent. I have some ambivalence about CC and CIO so I just don't want to put myself in a situation where I might be tempted to cut it short, because I know that would make things worse. We may well do CC sometime later though. DH is all for it. It's great to hear that it worked such a treat for you :thumbup: Good luck with your interview!!

Twister - my understanding is that at this age they are sometimes tired out of habit rather than because they actually need sleep. I know my own experience with my LO lately has been that he just will not sleep, for example, less than 2.5 hours after waking up in the morning, even if he's yawning. I know it seems really counterintuitive to try to keep them awake for longer when you've been worried about overtiredness for the first 5 months. But, personally, I would try it. If it's a disaster (and it may well be) you can always stop.

We would certainly support you if you choose to use CC :hugs: I didn't think I would be doing any kind of sleep training for a while. It seems like the ladies in this thread have used all kinds of approaches and certainly everyone seems very supportive of different styles.

Noelle - wow! I'll be curious to hear how tonight goes!


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## Twister

Thanks seaweed. I am going to try keeping her awake longer today, I'll update on how it goes!


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## VikkiD

Things were going great without the dummy but now we have another problem he keeps rolling on his tum up the top end of his cot then moans so I go running in put him back down his cot an on his back an then he will do it again. 5 times in total last night from 11.30. Any advice on what I can do?


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## Noelle610

Vikki, you can either flip him or let him fuss it out, but either way that phase passes.

Our night was eh. Charlotte was clearly overtired from 0 minutes of daytime sleep and she woke frequently for 30 seconds throughout the night. I didn't have to get up since she settled herself quickly, but my sleep was very broken. Oh well. Hopefully she naps today! I got her up at 6:30am and didn't let her sleep in.


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## mellyboo

We have discovered something..

Jordyn only sleeps good on the weekends when OH is home and on the weekends she doesn't get as much sleep.

Her morning nap is the same and her bed time routine is ALWAYS the same but her mid day she doesn't get as much sleep as she would with me being home all day and not doing much.

I think I need to cut her down to 2 naps a day and try to keep her up and see how we do..

Because she was waking up once from 730(pretty much to 7am) ... and now that the week is back it's every flipping hour again.

OH is home on Thursday night friday night and sat night this week because i go for surgery on thurs. 

He will obviously do all the night wakings and watch she will only wake up once, he prob wonders if im making this up ...her getting up every hour lol

If she isn't better by mid June OH is on vacation from work and were putting in a sleep training program in the works if she keeps waking up like she is now.


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## Shadowy Lady

Noelle - I cannot believe C didn't nap at all! Well, as long as she sleeps well at night. I always prefer crappy nap over crappy night sleep.

Seaweed - We didn't do CC for night feed, she dropped them on her own. We did it for weaning off the soother earlier (around 4.5 months or so). I was surprised she night weaned herself and delighted. Good luck to you tonight :)

Last night Sofia sttn from 6:30 pm to 7 am which was nice. I think I heard her shuffle around 4 am but I'm not really sure lol! Either way it didn't wake me up all the way...I also ended up going without sleep meds which worked out :) Did a core fitness class and will get ready to go to my interview. DH is being very good taking care of Sofia's naps while I go around to meetings.


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## Twister

So she's had 2 naps today, both of around 40 minutes in length. The first one I kept up her for around 2.5 hours before she was getting too cranky, I nursed her to sleep and she went down without fuss. The second time she was up for around 2 hours, again becoming increasingly cranky. I managed to settle her in her cot by stroking her head and letting her hold onto my finger. She did fuss a bit but I managed to stop it from escalating. Thinking about putting her down again soon as she's starting to become fussy again.


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## seaweed eater

LO didn't want to nurse to sleep last night for some reason...he had a good feed and then was wide awake. It may have been my fault for putting him down a bit too early, but anyway since he didn't want to nurse and didn't seem uncomfortable we went back to the other soothing techniques :shrug: he fell asleep in 27 minutes! So that's definitely progress! I'm thinking we will try again tonight unless he seems sicker. Thanks again for your support. It made me feel better that several of you said you thought it was ok to keep going. :hugs:

Twister, that sounds like improvement, right? :thumbup:

Noelle, sorry you didn't have a more restful night. I hope she naps well today. Happy 11 months! :happydance:

Shadowy, that's awesome about the night weaning. I'm thinking about starting some feeding cutoffs once he's better at settling himself without nursing, if he doesn't drop extra feeds on his own. But I am definitely hoping he will just drop them on his own. :haha: Hope your interview today goes/went well!


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## Twister

Yes definitely an improvement today. We haven't had any meltdowns! The worst we had was at bedtime, she'd cut the inside of her ear with her fingernail, and then grabbed at her ear whilst in her cot and I guess it hurt because she let out an almighty scream!

Bedtime was ok. I took her up at about 6:30, fed her (which is when she cut her ear but didn't notice, put her in her cot, stood there stroking her head etc. Until about 7:45 when she grabbed at her ear and started screaming, decided the head stroking/self soothing thing wasn't working and fed her until she fell asleep, put her down at about 8 and she's been asleep ever since! Praying for a good night tonight as I really need the rest and so does she. She was so tired at bedtime but just wouldn't doze off, kept lifting her head and smiling at me lol.


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## Noelle610

Sounds good Twister... fingers crossed for you hun!


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## polaris

Hey everyone.

Clara ended up having a very short catnap this afternoon as both her first two naps were shorter than usual. She went to bed at 7 and hasn't woken up yet. Fingers crossed for a good night tonight! (OT for this thread but I have been trying to wean my 3.5 year old off napping and it really hasn't been going very well, he has basically been an over-tired mess for the past week - yesterday and today I let him have 1.5 hour nap and he was in so much better form. It means he's up a lot later than I would like, 8.45 p.m. today, but at least he seems well-rested and happy. I guess he is just not ready to lose the nap yet. The first couple of days were great, he didn't seem too tired without the nap and went to sleep immediately at bedtime and slept for 13+ hours, but it all went downhill from there. Can't believe I'm still stressing about nap transitions 3.5 years on!!)

Shadowy - hope your interview went well. Fingers crossed for you.

Noelle - Clara has an awful habit of crying out very frequently during the night and I do think it's overtiredness. Not surprising given that she didn't nap at all! Crazy kid!! Hope things are back to normal today and you have a restful night tonight.

Seaweed eater - that is definitely progress with regard to nursing to sleep. Clara doesn't usually nurse to sleep at all anymore, she will turn her head away and then start arching her back looking to go into the cot. I would definitely wait until you are 100% committed before embarking on CC. It's not a cure for everything anyway - Clara's sleeping is 1000% better than before we did CC but it is by no means perfect.

Vikki, Clara does the same thing, she sleeps on her tummy but she crawls up to the top of the cot and then hits her head off the cot bars and cries. Her latest thing is flipping onto her back and crying - although she was sleeping on her back the other morning when I went in to wake her so maybe this phase is gradually passing.

Twister - glad you had a better day and fingers crossed for a good night tonight. I always find it best to keep my expectations low so that if it does turn out to be a good night I'm pleasantly surprised. Anytime I think she is sure to sleep well tonight she usually has a dreadful night just to prove me wrong!


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## Leids

I apologize for not getting back to you yet Noelle! He's been self settling AMAZINGLY! It seems like it's only really taken 2 nights of him being really fussy/crying to get him settling. The first night it was about 10-15 minutes of him being upset, the second night was about 5 minutes, and now he just goes right to sleep! Each time I was in bed with him. I really hope that this trend continues and it isn't just a fluke! I feel way too lucky right now.

On an amusing note.. We went to bed tonight, and William couldn't get comfortable. He started shuffling, and fell asleep with his foot right in my face. :haha: This is what I get for teaching him how to self settle! Before he would fall asleep all curled up next to me.

Image below. :) Forgive the creepy eye, it was dark, and I turned my flash on (I'm brave). I had no idea where the camera actually was so got bad placement!

Spoiler
https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v635/nakeli/2013-04-23225212_zps2c9125d6.jpg

:rofl:


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## bananaz

Leids said:


> I apologize for not getting back to you yet Noelle! He's been self settling AMAZINGLY! It seems like it's only really taken 2 nights of him being really fussy/crying to get him settling. The first night it was about 10-15 minutes of him being upset, the second night was about 5 minutes, and now he just goes right to sleep! Each time I was in bed with him. I really hope that this trend continues and it isn't just a fluke! I feel way too lucky right now.
> 
> On an amusing note.. We went to bed tonight, and William couldn't get comfortable. He started shuffling, and fell asleep with his foot right in my face. :haha: This is what I get for teaching him how to self settle! Before he would fall asleep all curled up next to me.
> 
> Image below. :) Forgive the creepy eye, it was dark, and I turned my flash on (I'm brave). I had no idea where the camera actually was so got bad placement!
> 
> Spoiler
> https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v635/nakeli/2013-04-23225212_zps2c9125d6.jpg
> 
> :rofl:

Hooray for self-settling! And that photo is hilarious. When you write your parenting memoirs that should definitely be on the cover :haha:


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## seaweed eater

Polaris - I hope your night went well with Clara! I'm sorry about the nap transition issues with your older boy. I can see us being there in three years. :p

Leids, I'm glad to hear things are going so well! :happydance:

I'm feeling really really discouraged today. Bedtime crying got worse since yesterday, night wakings are as bad or worse, naps are a disaster. Maybe my expectations were too high but this has just been horrible. Meanwhile my sleep is suffering extra because the emotional intensity keeps me awake. I know we have to try this for at least two more nights and maybe something miraculous will happen but I just feel overwhelmed by having to face more of it, not to mention trying to figure out what to do next if it doesn't work.


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## Noelle610

Leids, I'm thrilled for you! And that picture is hilarious :haha:


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## mellyboo

So Jords didnt have much day time sleep yesterday and guess what only woke up twice.. I now need to figure out how much day time sleep she should be getting because it seems like the less day time sleep she has the better sleep she has in the middle of the night.. but then i'm dealing with her being slightly cranky because she feels tired during the day but i'm hoping she will just get used to the 2 naps and staying awake for a longer period of time.

How does this work lol


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## Noelle610

There's usually a period where they're fussy/tired from habit when they transition to 2 naps. If your LO is sleeping well overnight it's a good sign she's ready!


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## bananaz

mellyboo said:


> So Jords didnt have much day time sleep yesterday and guess what only woke up twice.. I now need to figure out how much day time sleep she should be getting because it seems like the less day time sleep she has the better sleep she has in the middle of the night.. but then i'm dealing with her being slightly cranky because she feels tired during the day but i'm hoping she will just get used to the 2 naps and staying awake for a longer period of time.
> 
> How does this work lol


We're going through a similar thing here, I agree with Noelle that it's likely a sign that it's time to drop a nap.

With Elsie I've noticed that the only days that she's slept past 6am were when she either had no afternoon nap or a very short one the day before. Yesterday she had 2.5 hour morning nap (?!) so I didn't even bother trying to put her down in the afternoon and she slept from 7:40pm-6:10am!


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## polaris

Seaweed - I think you are right that you need to stick it out for a bit longer - after an initial improvement it does often get worse again before it gets better. And weren't things interrupted a bit by him getting unwell? Anyway there's no point stopping now, just stick with it. I know how disheartening it can be.


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## Twister

So another day of 30-40 min cat naps! I'm not quite sure how to get the longer naps back, they seem to have dissapeared! When she cuts down to 2 naps surely 2 naps of half an hour wouldn't be enough at this age? At the moment she seems to be having one morning nap, then another in the afternoon, then another late afternoon because they're so short and she spends most of the day in a grump over lack of sleep. 

Maybe I should just only let her nap twice, get rid of the late afternoon nap, put up with the grumpiness and eventually she will 'catch on' and extend the two naps she already has? This age is confusing lol.


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## socitycourty

Hadley is almost 11 months and seems to get by just fine on 1 or 2 (30-40) minute naps a day.....I feel like I'm dying!


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## Twister

She's always been a cat napper from around 2.5 months old. Then suddenly last week she started taking naps of 1-1.5 hours once or even twice a day! But she's stopped doing it so I'm stumped.


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## bananaz

Twister said:


> She's always been a cat napper from around 2.5 months old. Then suddenly last week she started taking naps of 1-1.5 hours once or even twice a day! But she's stopped doing it so I'm stumped.

Elsie also started taking longer naps at around 6 months but she had a few brief "regressions" before it became consistent. Hang in there!


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## bananaz

socitycourty said:


> Hadley is almost 11 months and seems to get by just fine on 1 or 2 (30-40) minute naps a day.....I feel like I'm dying!

Yikes, that must be really tough, especially with another baby to look after!


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## Shadowy Lady

we had another sttn (7pm to 7:20 am) with some minor shuffling at around 5 am (it took 10 mins for her to settle herself). What's odd though is how cranky she has been these last few days. Also, she seems to get tired so fast! She woke up at 7:20 am but wanted to nap by 9:00 am (she was going 3 hours between naps before). Then she napped till 10:30 am and I now she would wanna nap by 1 pm which will mess up her whole night routine...arghhhhhh


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## mellyboo

bananaz said:


> mellyboo said:
> 
> 
> So Jords didnt have much day time sleep yesterday and guess what only woke up twice.. I now need to figure out how much day time sleep she should be getting because it seems like the less day time sleep she has the better sleep she has in the middle of the night.. but then i'm dealing with her being slightly cranky because she feels tired during the day but i'm hoping she will just get used to the 2 naps and staying awake for a longer period of time.
> 
> How does this work lol
> 
> 
> We're going through a similar thing here, I agree with Noelle that it's likely a sign that it's time to drop a nap.
> 
> With Elsie I've noticed that the only days that she's slept past 6am were when she either had no afternoon nap or a very short one the day before. Yesterday she had 2.5 hour morning nap (?!) so I didn't even bother trying to put her down in the afternoon and she slept from 7:40pm-6:10am!Click to expand...

I think your right :).. Hoping this solves my issue trust me i'd be MORE then happy to wake up twice a night for the rest of my life it doesn't bother me for some reason... but waking up every hour ugh no. lol


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## VikkiD

Daniel slept 7:15 till 7:15 did wake around two and I did resettle him was only 5 mins though and he as only had one nap today for 80 mins


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## Sunnie1984

Shadowy - I think Sofia and Seren are twins! We are having the exact same here! 

I thought it was because she had a cold but maybe it's just wonder week or something! 

If it helps, Seren didn't take her afternoon nap until 2:30 as normal, although was quite tired and only did 30 mins. 

Went down at 6:30pm and not a peep 2 hours later so hopefully it'll work out ok x


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## socitycourty

bananaz said:


> socitycourty said:
> 
> 
> Hadley is almost 11 months and seems to get by just fine on 1 or 2 (30-40) minute naps a day.....I feel like I'm dying!
> 
> Yikes, that must be really tough, especially with another baby to look after!Click to expand...

:sleep:


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## Shadowy Lady

Sunnie - srsly? I think the two of them would be best buds! You guys should move to Canada :D Sofia went for her second nap at 2:00 pm sharp and it's still napping at 3:30 pm. This is the first day in a long time that her afternoon nap is longer than the morning one


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## NotNic

Shadowy the majority of Finlay's naps have been longer in the morning. It's making transitioning to one nap tough on me. I feel like I'm playing a risky game if he has a short nap in the morning as I can't be sure he will have another one. Plus I've got used to a few hours to myself! I'm trying to get the naps better before he starts nursery. 1.30-2pm seems to be the best time for us, and I've moved lunch earlier to try to fit things in. He is getting very tired by 6pm though and a few times he's pushed dinner away. We just need to get that pm nap longer. I am a bit concerned about how tired he's going to be doing nursery. That could be fun.


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## Noelle610

For the longest time Charlotte had her longest nap in the morning. Recently it's become the afternoon one that's longer and I'm glad - she seems more sensitive to being overtired later in the day. Also, the longer she naps in the PM the later she can stay up.... And selfishly I like that because I don't get home until late-ish (usually 6pm). It's nice to have that extra 30 minutes with her! But I don't want her to go to bed too late. I like my grown-up alone time with DH. I'm not sure how mamas with babies with 10pm bedtimes cope!


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## NotNic

Me neither Noelle! I only get a couple of hours to myself. F normally goes to sleep about 7.45. OH gets in c.6.45 so he gets an hour with him. A lot of babies I know have 6.30 bedtimes, but that wouldn't work for us, plus goodness knows what time he'd wake up! These days he can wake up between 5.30 and 6.15, but I'm trying to ignore early chatter and calling out. He's safe in bed and unless he's got a dirty nappy or his teeth hurt, then he'll be fine without me going in.


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## Noelle610

Oh yeah, so true. Charlotte usually sleeps soundly from around 7pm to 5am. Around that time she'll usually shuffle a bit and she might cry out, but she usually puts herself back to sleep until around 6/6:30am. I try not to intervene and usually she doesn't need me.


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## Radkat

Quick check in... My LO has been doing OK. Two nights ago she had a really hard time going to sleep. Was hypervigilant when I put her down and would cry a lot if I tried to leave the room before she was asleep, but didn't need me to hold her to sleep, so I guess overall that's progress. I kept trying for about 45 minutes to leave while she was still awake, but no dice. So I waited until she was asleep. Last night she went down easy, but it was 1 hour after her normal bedtime (I work late 1 night every two weeks. OH doesn't usually do bed times, so she wasn't having it with him). Both nights had two wakeups for feeding around 2 and then 4:30/5. She dropped her 3rd night feeding so I'm happy with that.

Question... How do you balance your training vs the kid getting some sleep? For example, OH was trying to put her down in her cosleeper in the bedroom for naps instead of in the swing in the living room, but she wasn't having it. When do you say it's better for her to get some sleep rather than keep trying what isn't working? I know you have to be persistent, but just wondering what others do.


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## seaweed eater

NotNic, if everyone at nursery naps at the same time, he may adapt to that routine when he starts going, even if he's not on it at home. Being with the other babies during awake time will be very stimulating and tiring, and then suddenly it will be dark and boring and everyone else will be asleep. I have friends who've said their babies got onto a much tighter daily routine after they started in daycare rooms where everyone naps together rather than each baby on demand.

Radkat, :thumbup: for progress. If she went down more easily much later than her usual bedtime, could it be that the usual one is too early? And thank you for asking that question, I've been wondering about the exact same thing.


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## Noelle610

Radkat said:


> Quick check in... My LO has been doing OK. Two nights ago she had a really hard time going to sleep. Was hypervigilant when I put her down and would cry a lot if I tried to leave the room before she was asleep, but didn't need me to hold her to sleep, so I guess overall that's progress. I kept trying for about 45 minutes to leave while she was still awake, but no dice. So I waited until she was asleep. Last night she went down easy, but it was 1 hour after her normal bedtime (I work late 1 night every two weeks. OH doesn't usually do bed times, so she wasn't having it with him). Both nights had two wakeups for feeding around 2 and then 4:30/5. She dropped her 3rd night feeding so I'm happy with that.
> 
> Question... How do you balance your training vs the kid getting some sleep? For example, OH was trying to put her down in her cosleeper in the bedroom for naps instead of in the swing in the living room, but she wasn't having it. When do you say it's better for her to get some sleep rather than keep trying what isn't working? I know you have to be persistent, but just wondering what others do.

Personally, I am a big fan (as are most "experts") of sleep training for nights first and doing "whatever works" for nap sleep for the time being. Night training is much, much easier of baby isn't overtired. Contrary to popular belief, this won't "confuse" a baby because different parts of the brain are responsible for day and night sleep.

Once nights are under control, you can work on naps.


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## Twister

Ugh, LO went down for the night at around 8pm, since then she's woken twice, once at 8:45 and again just now at 10pm. 

I hope this isn't a sign of things to come! Starting to feel like I have no idea what my LO needs in terms of sleep and that I'm doing it wrong and failing her :(


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## Noelle610

Aw Twister :hugs: Glad you're here with us!!!


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## Twister

I think she might be having tummy pains. At dinner this evening I gave her a bit of my chicken, it had a bit of a kick to it (probably shouldn't have given it to her tbh) so to cool her mouth down afterwards we gave her some natural yogurt, she seems to love the stuff and seemed to eat quite a lot. Maybe a bit too much and her tummy isn't used to it. Maybe that's what keeps waking her, she nurses back to sleep fine though. Either that or I shouldn't have put her down for that last nap. I think tomorrow we might try having just two naps and see how she goes. 

Maybe it's time for me to try and come up with some sort of routine, I've always been baby led but I feel like I've lost my way with it iykwim. Might start keeping a diary of when she naps etc and try and come up with something that will suit her?


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## Noelle610

Definitely keep some logs! I think you can be baby-led and have a routine. When I started paying attention, it seemed like my DD did much better with a routine. So I say she led me to it!


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## Twister

Yes that's what im thinking. I'm rubbish at time keeping. I still have to make a note of what time her last feed was on my phone so that I know roughly when she's due for another feed. Or if she's fussing/crying and I'm not sure why I check my phone and realise its been a while since she last fed and she's probably hungry:dohh: I'm such a scatterbrain at times.


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## NotNic

I'd say we've always been baby led but we're lucky that Finlay is expressive so we know when he needed to feed and sleep. I know plenty of mums that follow strict routines but it seemed too stressful to me, but it is nice to have some sort of control over your day. I didn't EBF, so we naturally got a routine as he dropped some breast feeds himself and we swapped others for bottles. I'd recommend a few days observing and making a note, as there will be a few patterns which will help you create a routine that best fits you and your baby.


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## seaweed eater

:hugs: Twister (and happy 6 months Jessica! :flower:)

Personally I started out completely baby-led but found that (with sleep at least) routine is a must for us. I've been reminded of it through this exhausting recent nap transition. When there is no structure, LO doesn't know what's going on either, so if I try to follow him it's like the blind leading the blind. Once there's a structure in place he finds his way and I can adjust from day to day according to his cues.

I can understand that some babies may not need it. It's different with feeding -- routine actually doesn't work as well for us with that. But for sleep, absolutely.


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## Radkat

Noelle - Thanks for the idea of dealing with nights first. I think that's what we're essentially doing. Nights are going better anyway. Self soothing a bit better and fewer night wakings. The last few nights has been 3 wake ups (only 2 feeds), down from 6+ a week ago. I'm hoping this continues. Naps have been the same. Needs to be walked to sleep and still doing 3 naps of 20-30 minutes.


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## Noelle610

That's wonderful progress!


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## seaweed eater

That's good progress, Radkat :thumbup: I hope it continues!


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## Twister

Ugh she's acting like she's up for the day. I think she woke at 3:30am (it's 4:30 now). Really regret putting her down for the last nap now, I bet that's what's caused it. Tried nursing her to sleep, twice. She was very fidgety even though she was 'asleep' and woke once she was put down. She seems happy in her cot so I've left her in her room for now but she keeps rolling over so I doubt she will settle without help. 

Sucks even more because I have af pains and all I want to do is curl up in bed but she won't let me lol.


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## polaris

We had a dreadful night again last night. Bed at 7 but awake again at 7.45, 10, 11, 2.15 (for an hour long MOTP), and 4.30, and then up for the day at 6.40. I am exhausted. I honestly have no idea why she is waking so much. I ended up feeding her every time except the 11 p.m. waking because I was just too tired and wanted her to go back to sleep. Her tooth is through now so I don't think it's teething. She's 35 weeks (I think) so I guess maybe it could be the lead up to WW37. Just feeling really tired and disheartened this morning.


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## Twister

Polaris that sounds pretty much exactly the same as my LO last night, except she woke at 3:30 for an hour. She's been up since 6am. Soooo tired, I feel your pain :(

Going to try sticking to two naps today and keep her awake longer than the 1.5-2hours she's usually up for, see if that makes any difference. She will probably be grumpy but if it means a better nights sleep tonight then it's worth it. Especially as oh is away on a stag do this weekend so I won't get my weekend lie ins to recharge.


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## MiniKiwi

Everything has gone back to how it used to be now and I just need to vent. I don't know what went wrong. I think Mia's trying to transition to one nap but she's getting up at 5/5:30am so it's all impossible and I'm juust sick of fucking ssshhhhing and patting and fucking rocking and fuck! lmao. There.


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## Twister

So she went down for her first nap at just before 10am, she woke just after 11 screaming but she still had her eyes closed, she was hungry so gave her a feed and she went straight back to sleep. It's now midday and she's still asleep! I think keeping her awake longer has definitely helped.


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## Noelle610

Twister, before you even commented the second time I thought "two naps". She's ready. Sounds like she's doing great! Charlotte will sometimes wake early from a nap and I'll give her a pacifier or even let her fuss for five minutes and she will go back to sleep. I know she's ready to get up when she wakes happily.

Polaris, I think you may have one of those babies that just takes longer to sleep train and needs absolute consistency. With most kids, CC takes just a week or so, but for some it takes longer. I think by responding to each waking with a feed, you're sending mixed messages. I would respond to night wakings with CC each time. That's just my opinion though and of course you have to do what you're most comfortable with.

Oh MiniKiwi, :hugs: mama! What's going on, long night wakings again? The early morning wake-up actually can be indicative of being ready for a nap transition. How's Mia sleeping during the day?


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## Twister

Yeah I think so too, can't believe I didn't realise, feel so stupid lol. She slept for just over 3 hours in the end:shock: she's NEVER napped for that long, ever. I think maybe she was catching up with the sleep she lost last night. I'm a bit unsure as to what to do about the second nap now though, she woke at about 1pm, so she'll probably be due another nap at around 4ish, maybe later. Wouldn't that be a bit late? Guess I'll just see how it goes, it's all a bit trial and error atm.


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## Noelle610

Hey, don't feel bad! When you're tired it's hard to see the trees from the forest as they say :haha:

In the future, I think I'd wake at the 2 hour mark only because it becomes hard to fit that second nap in. Today I'd try for a cat nap around 4pm - don't let her sleep past 4:45pm or 5pm though.


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## Twister

Thanks, I shall try that and see how we get on!


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## Noelle610

Good luck hun!


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## Twister

Thanks. I ended up taking her up for a nap at 3:30 because she was heading for a meltdown, so she's had 2.5 hours awake time. She's just fallen asleep at about 3:45. I'll make sure she doesn't stay asleep past 4:45-5 but I'll be happy if she sleeps for an hour as it means she'll be less cranky at dinner time!


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## Noelle610

Sounds good!


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## seaweed eater

Aww MiniKiwi, I'm really sorry to read that :hugs: I hope it's something fixable like a nap transition and you get back on track soon.

Polaris :hugs: that's so tough. I can understand why you would respond by feeding every time. I hope it gets better soon.

Related question, and related to Noelle's response - I've wondered about the feeding cutoffs (which I plan to start implementing) vs. the need to be "consistent." Is it confusing for baby to have a feeding schedule at night, because you're not responding to all wakings in the exact same way? It seems like a lot of people use cutoffs successfully so I guess it works somehow, for at least some babies.

Twister, the nap thing sounds like a good insight! :thumbup: And it already sounds like the transition is going better for you than it has for us :haha:

We've had a really good 24 hours...knock on wood!! This morning we stayed home from music class to avoid the car and get the nap right. He went down on time so I hope it pays off. I would just love to be out of this cycle of waking up too early, being overtired all day, taking short and late naps, being undertired at bedtime, fighting hard and then going to sleep really late, etc.


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## bananaz

MiniKiwi said:


> Everything has gone back to how it used to be now and I just need to vent. I don't know what went wrong. I think Mia's trying to transition to one nap but she's getting up at 5/5:30am so it's all impossible and I'm juust sick of fucking ssshhhhing and patting and fucking rocking and fuck! lmao. There.

Haha aww I feel for you. We were having the same issue and then finally LO started taking a longer first nap so she was able to drop the second nap and since then she's actually been sleeping until 6am!

Maybe try pushing Mia's first nap later? She's going to be grumpy about it of course but it might be worth it in the long run.


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## bananaz

seaweed eater said:


> Related question, and related to Noelle's response - I've wondered about the feeding cutoffs (which I plan to start implementing) vs. the need to be "consistent." Is it confusing for baby to have a feeding schedule at night, because you're not responding to all wakings in the exact same way? It seems like a lot of people use cutoffs successfully so I guess it works somehow, for at least some babies.

This was a big question for me as well. I think the key issue is whether your baby is waking out of hunger or out of habit/sleep associations. 

If they're waking out of hunger, feeding cutoffs should help because baby will get used to not eating during that time and start taking those calories in during the day instead, which will hopefully stop the nighttime hunger. If they're waking because of habit/sleep associations then theoretically feeding cutoffs might reinforce the night wakings because you're intermittently rewarding the behavior. So it's kind of a dilemma! 

IMO, if your baby is actually eating a decent amount at night then feeding cutoffs are a good place to start. If they're just sucking a little and going straight back to sleep then you may want to consider eliminating feeds all at once and just picking one consistent response.


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## polaris

Noelle, I think you are right, I think she needs total consistency or it just won't work. However at the moment I think I just need to wait it out for a bit. I think I am going to wait until I can be certain that she no longer needs a night feed before attempting CC again. I think I will wait it out until maybe 10 months now. I don't see the point in letting her cry but then feeding her at some wakings and not at others. But I don't feel 100% certain about cutting out night feeds totally yet.

It could be worse, she is in a great routine during the day time and we do have occasional good nights. And she does self-settle and doesn't generally feed to sleep.


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## Noelle610

Understood! Would you be open to a dream feed and then responding to all other night wakings consistantly?


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## polaris

Noelle610 said:


> Understood! Would you be open to a dream feed and then responding to all other night wakings consistantly?

That is a good idea actually. I will definitely keep that in mind if the night wakings become too much to cope with. 

At the moment I just can't face the idea of any more sleep training involving crying. I also feel that maybe she needs a bit of time developmentally to fully respond to sleep training. I still don't regret doing the sleep training we did already because her sleep is a lot better than it was before we did it even though it's still absolutely rubbish!


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## Noelle610

polaris said:


> Noelle610 said:
> 
> 
> Understood! Would you be open to a dream feed and then responding to all other night wakings consistantly?
> 
> That is a good idea actually. I will definitely keep that in mind if the night wakings become too much to cope with.
> 
> At the moment I just can't face the idea of any more sleep training involving crying. I also feel that maybe she needs a bit of time developmentally to fully respond to sleep training. I still don't regret doing the sleep training we did already because her sleep is a lot better than it was before we did it even though it's still absolutely rubbish!Click to expand...

It's very possible. Not all babies are the same. She'll get there, regardless!


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## NotNic

Finlay still isnt over the early starts. He woke at 5am today and unsurprisingly was soo ready for a nap at 9am. He literally fell asleep on my shoulder when I picked him up. He then had two hours and a second short nap at 4.30 which he woke from in inconsolable tears. For the second night running he was not interested in dinner and looked like he could have gone to bed instead. By the time he was washed and dressed he had got to overtired and again it took an hour to get him to sleep. Even though he's exhausted, he tries his hardest not to go to sleep - throwing himself around the bed, rubbing his face into the mattress, chatting and playing with his toys. I'm hoping we get past this soon as his nights have been okay. I need to get back on the after lunch nap track, but its tricky when he is so tired and not having enough sleep at night or in the previous days naps


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## Beankeeper

Wanted to share this with you sleepy mamas https://starcrossedkayla.tumblr.com...ent-on-amazon-and-bought-all-the-top-books-on
Hope it makes you smile like it did me...


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## MiniKiwi

Noelle610 said:


> Oh MiniKiwi, :hugs: mama! What's going on, long night wakings again? The early morning wake-up actually can be indicative of being ready for a nap transition. How's Mia sleeping during the day?

Ahh thanks for the hugs ladies. Just so frustrating that everything was going well and now it's just not!

She's going to bed at 7pm and last night we didn't actually have a motn party but they've been happening again regularly. She woke at 7:30, 8:30 and 9:30pm again, like she used to but then slept until 4:45am and was up for the day, that's not a bad night but definitely a step backwards. Her naps used to be 1 hour in the morning and 2 hours in the afternoon but she's been pushing the first nap later and later and it ends up being 20/30 mins then only 30-1 hour in the afternoon. I just feel like I can't do anything about it since we're moving in 5 days to Norway and we have close to 50 hours travel time and then a totally different time zone. These flights are going to be ROUGH. UGH!


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## socitycourty

MiniKiwi said:


> Noelle610 said:
> 
> 
> Oh MiniKiwi, :hugs: mama! What's going on, long night wakings again? The early morning wake-up actually can be indicative of being ready for a nap transition. How's Mia sleeping during the day?
> 
> Ahh thanks for the hugs ladies. Just so frustrating that everything was going well and now it's just not!
> 
> She's going to bed at 7pm and last night we didn't actually have a motn party but they've been happening again regularly. She woke at 7:30, 8:30 and 9:30pm again, like she used to but then slept until 4:45am and was up for the day, that's not a bad night but definitely a step backwards. Her naps used to be 1 hour in the morning and 2 hours in the afternoon but she's been pushing the first nap later and later and it ends up being 20/30 mins then only 30-1 hour in the afternoon. I just feel like I can't do anything about it since we're moving in 5 days to Norway and we have close to 50 hours travel time and then a totally different time zone. These flights are going to be ROUGH. UGH!Click to expand...

:hugs:


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## Noelle610

MiniKiwi said:


> Noelle610 said:
> 
> 
> Oh MiniKiwi, :hugs: mama! What's going on, long night wakings again? The early morning wake-up actually can be indicative of being ready for a nap transition. How's Mia sleeping during the day?
> 
> Ahh thanks for the hugs ladies. Just so frustrating that everything was going well and now it's just not!
> 
> She's going to bed at 7pm and last night we didn't actually have a motn party but they've been happening again regularly. She woke at 7:30, 8:30 and 9:30pm again, like she used to but then slept until 4:45am and was up for the day, that's not a bad night but definitely a step backwards. Her naps used to be 1 hour in the morning and 2 hours in the afternoon but she's been pushing the first nap later and later and it ends up being 20/30 mins then only 30-1 hour in the afternoon. I just feel like I can't do anything about it since we're moving in 5 days to Norway and we have close to 50 hours travel time and then a totally different time zone. These flights are going to be ROUGH. UGH!Click to expand...

Why don't you try doing one mid-day nap to see if you can get a longer sleep? She may be ready to transition to one. 

Who knows, maybe the trip will re-set her sleep and she'll do great. That actually happened to C when we traveled for Christmas. It was weird!


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## Noelle610

Beankeeper said:


> Wanted to share this with you sleepy mamas https://starcrossedkayla.tumblr.com...ent-on-amazon-and-bought-all-the-top-books-on
> Hope it makes you smile like it did me...

I loved this, it made me laugh out loud!


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## Beankeeper

Noelle610 said:


> Beankeeper said:
> 
> 
> Wanted to share this with you sleepy mamas https://starcrossedkayla.tumblr.com...ent-on-amazon-and-bought-all-the-top-books-on
> Hope it makes you smile like it did me...
> 
> I loved this, it made me laugh out loud!Click to expand...

I probably should've put a warning on it to not read within hearing distance of sleeping baby as I laughed too!


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## mellyboo

Here's an update : .... Yesterday was my surgery day I had to wake up up at 545am
And she is usually up for the day around 7am or 8am I was seriously scared because our night time routine and morning routine is the only thing we had consistent about our days and I don't like taking them away from her at all I've worked way to hard to get this messed up .. I was like literally nervous and oh couldn't watch her he works nights so my mom had to drop me of at the hospital and bring Jords ... And then she was watching Jords until bed time and oh was going to pick her up but after oh got me at the hospital at 3 we just went there for supper and the evening anyway while I laid on the couch.. He had To go get my meds and etc too so was easier if we just stayed at moms and he went quickly to do those I had gallbladder surgery so I'm not allowed to lift her for a week because I could get a hernia :( I miss my baby cuddles terribly but she's okay with oh she loves him
To death there best buds and he knows how to do everything with her with minimal
Questions... So this is how her day went i got her up at 545 I didn't feed her she didn't wanna eat anyway I got her dressed and packed her food and breakfast in her bag and in decided she would have her bubba around 7am still
And her usual breakfast at 8 do I stuck with the same time as her routine even tho she was up and I got my mom to put her down for her Normal
Nap at 10am .. So she was up later before her usual first nap I guess she slept 1 hr and 30
Mins for my mom ( she has a pack and play there ) mom followed my routine loosely had another cat nap and she went to bed for oh around 630 woke up at 2am for 5 mins
And she was up at 7am (usual time) yay Jords did amazing ! ... I was so scared as would think 545 was acceptable for walking up i did have a hard
Time waking her up tho I kept poking her and she would
Roll over back sleep lmao I had to pick her up
To wake her out of her crib lol


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## mellyboo

Here's an update : .... Yesterday was my surgery day I had to wake up up at 545am And she is usually up for the day around 7am or 8am I was seriously scared because our night time routine and morning routine is the only thing we had consistent about our days and I don't like taking them away from her at all I've worked way to hard to get this messed up .. I was literally nervous and oh couldn't watch her he works nights so my mom had to drop me of at the hospital and bring Jords ... And then she was watching Jords until bed time and oh was going to pick her up but after oh got me at the hospital at 3 we just went there for supper and the evening anyway while I laid on the couch.. He had To go get my meds and etc too so was easier if we just stayed at moms and he went quickly to do those I had gallbladder surgery so I'm not allowed to lift her for a week because I could get a hernia :( I miss my baby cuddles terribly but she's okay with oh she loves him To death there best buds and he knows how to do everything with her with minimal Questions... So this is how her day went i got her up at 545 I didn't feed her she didn't wanna eat anyway I got her dressed and packed her food and breakfast in her bag and in decided she would have her bubba around 7am still And her usual breakfast at 8 do I stuck with the same time as her routine even tho she was up and I got my mom to put her down for her Normal
Nap at 10am .. So she was up later before her usual first nap I guess she slept 1 hr and 30 Mins for my mom ( she has a pack and play there ) mom followed my routine loosely had another cat nap and she went to bed for oh around 630 woke up at 2am for 5 mins And she was up at 7am (usual time) yay Jords did amazing ! ... I was so scared she would think 545 was acceptable for walking up i did have a hard Time waking her up tho I kept poking her and she would Roll over back sleep lmao I had to pick her up To wake her out of her crib lol sorry for the errors typed this quick on my phone


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## Twister

Sounds like Jordyn did great mellyboo!

Last night was ok, I took Jessica up to bed at 7:30, she was asleep by 8pm. Then she woke at 10:30 (had a job putting her back to sleep at this waking) and 1:20 but then did a longish stretch and slept till 5am. She was then up at 6:30 for the day which was fine as we needed to get up to take oh to the coach station this morning. I'm not expecting miracles but things are improving I think!

Today she's had 2 naps but they were both quite short, lasting around 30/40 mins each. Technically she had 3 if you count the 10/15min nap in the car on the way back from the supermarket after dropping oh off. I'm not going to put her down for another nap, her next sleep will be bedtime so I'll see how she gets on.


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## mellyboo

Jordyn does that some times its actually typical of her to wake up shortly after putting her to bed 

This week it was going to bed around 7-8 but she would wake up 30 mins after frantically crying i would try to feed her she would cry i tried picking her out of her crib and rocking her she would cry.. must of been a little faze because she didn't do it last night.


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## Noelle610

Sounds like good nights ladies!


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## seaweed eater

Melly, I'm so glad to hear Jordyn did so well! :thumbup: hope your recovery from surgery goes well too :hugs:

Twister, I'm glad to hear things are improving :thumbup: Munchkin often has days with naps similar to that now. We have a 20-minute commute to daycare so I can't prevent him from sleeping in the car at least one direction. I used to try to give him a full nap if he fell asleep there but I've learned he does better without it. I think you are right to keep her up until bedtime now. I hope tonight goes well!

LO slept his longest stretch ever last night! :happydance: 7:40 until 4:15! I surprised myself by sleeping over 6 hours too. He had a minor MOTN party after that but eventually self-settled without much fuss. It was understandable to me, I felt pretty refreshed too! :haha: Then he slept until 6:40. I couldn't believe it. I really hope he keeps it up -- it's wonderful to see him spending less time fighting sleep. But I'm glad for the 6 hours anyway, even if tonight is worse again.


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## Twister

Just debating to myself when to take her up to bed. I think it might be quite an early night for her tonight, due to when she last woke up, possibly around 6 or 6:30 (it's 5:45 atm), she will have been up for 4 hours by then and she's getting a bit irritable. I think it will take a little while for her to establish a set bedtime whilst she gets used to her new routine.

Does that sound about right?


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## Noelle610

That sounds right Twister. During transitions early bedtimes are a must. My DD is dropping to one nap currently and she's a mess come 6pm whereas she used to go down at 7/7:30.

Seaweed, that's a fabulous night!


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## bananaz

*seaweed* - Wow, that's great! Fingers crossed for more stretches like that!

*melly* - Yay, I'm glad to hear Jordyn did so well. Sending good thoughts for your recovery.

*Twister* - An earlier bedtime does often help during these transitions, so that sounds like a good idea.


After almost a year, I think we are finally settling into a good routine here for both daytime and nighttime sleep. LO seems to have dropped her second nap and ever since that happened she's been sleeping past 6am, which is awesome. 

I'm so glad I took the plunge and got rid of that last night feed a few weeks ago. It was stressful and I kept second-guessing myself at the time but we're both better off now. I'm sure there will continue to be bad days because that's the way it works with her but I'm actually feeling hopeful for once :happydance:


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## Twister

Took her up at 6:30, she's now fast asleep! She seemed quite chirpy though an had a massive giggle fit before I took her up lol, must have used up the last of her energy. Fingers crossed for a good night tonight!


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## Noelle610

Fingers crossed Twister!

Bananaz, that gives me hope... Charlotte's in the process of transitioning and I fear it's too quick. Her daycare provider has three babies and the other two are ready, so she's kind of moving foward wtih it. C's night sleep seems to be fine, even great, so I'm hoping that's an indciation she's doing okay. She's absolutely shattered at bedtime though. I wish I got home earlier so we could put her down a little sooner.


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## polaris

Seaweed - Yay!!:happydance::happydance: So pleased for you that you had such an amazing night! And brilliant that you managed to sleep too. Really hope it continues but even if it's two steps forward one step back, at least you know things are beginning to head in the right direction. 

Twister - so glad that things are improving for you too.

Mellyboo - wishing you a speedy recovery from the surgery.


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## bananaz

Noelle610 said:


> Fingers crossed Twister!
> 
> Bananaz, that gives me hope... Charlotte's in the process of transitioning and I fear it's too quick. Her daycare provider has three babies and the other two are ready, so she's kind of moving foward wtih it. C's night sleep seems to be fine, even great, so I'm hoping that's an indciation she's doing okay. She's absolutely shattered at bedtime though. I wish I got home earlier so we could put her down a little sooner.

I'm sure she'll get there. Elsie had a few false starts with the nap transition thing but then suddenly everything just seemed to click and now she usually makes it until her 7:30 bedtime no problem. Out of curiosity, what time is your daycare provider putting them down for the one nap?


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## Twister

Ok so not off to the greatest of starts, she's just woke up crying after about half an hour maybe? Just nursing her back to sleep now.


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## polaris

Noelle, I think it is a really good sign that her night time sleep is good. The main problem that I had with Thomas's nap transitions was that it would affect his night time sleep negatively, this was usually the main reason that I ended up having to back track on dropping naps and put up with early wakings and/or late nights. Thomas was always a nightmare for nap transitions though (still is).


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## Shadowy Lady

So glad so many babies are doing great sleep wise :) Hope all you ladies are well rested...


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## NotNic

So far, so poo tonight. :( An hour to convince him to sleep, 3 wake ups and now a rare motn party for us - 40mins so far and OH is still out on a team night out. I just know I'm finally going to get F asleep, fall asleep myself and he'll come and wake us both up. :(


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## Twister

We've had a rubbish night too. Probably to do with some of oh's family coming to visit. I tried putting her down for her second naps bit earlier so she would bra wake for when they arrived but she only slept for 40mins and was overtired by the time I managed to get her to sleep. She woke at 8:30, 10:10, 11:11 and just now at 1:45*sigh*.


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## NotNic

Sorry to hear that Twister. :hugs: He is now finally asleep again. We almost were safe before but he was wedged in his cot so I dared to move him and bam awake again. :( Can't believe that motn party was so long - 2 hours which is most unlike him. Off to get some much needed shut eye. We have a meeting after church tomorrow about his christening. Yawning through the vicar's sermon isn't going to make a great impression. Sweet dreams mamas x


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## seaweed eater

Sorry about the bad night so far ladies :hugs: I hope you both get some rest.

I'm a little apprehensive here. LO was absolutely exhausted at bedtime. He had three naps today but none of them were very long. I hope he wasn't overtired enough to sleep badly tonight. He settled immediately so hoping that's a good sign.

Last night started out good but then we had a very weird MOTN party. He was awake and moaning very intermittently for about half an hour. I went in only twice because I kept thinking he was on the verge of going back to sleep. Then DH offered to check and Munchkin suddenly started screaming. Once he'd been up for over an hour and a half I figured he might be hungry, got DH to calm him down as best he could, and nursed him. Then he went right to sleep. :shrug: I'm going to guess he was actually hungry? I fed him when he first woke up but he didn't eat a ton. And he'd been sleeping for about 7.5 hours before that (yay!). It doesn't make very much sense otherwise.


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## seaweed eater

How is everyone doing? I hope the quiet means everyone is having good nights and naps! :hugs:

Things have been really good here. We just have one remaining issue at the moment, which is that LO is waking up early and still tired. He falls asleep when one of us goes in to help him (DH too :happydance:) but won't self-settle or stay asleep for more than five minutes. His night sleep has been good so I don't think he is overtired. But he's definitely not waking up cheerful, and he's yawning and grumpy until his first nap.

Anyone have experience with that? I want to avoid the up early/three naps/late bedtime cycle we were in until recently. So I guess I should just keep him up until an appropriate naptime for two naps? :shrug: That's what I did today...he went down just now at 9 (up at 5:40). It was a struggle to keep him up though!


----------



## Noelle610

seaweed, we're on two naps some days and I have a "no nap" rule before 9am (morning nap) and 1pm (afternoon nap) regardless of wake-up time to keep the routine since it works.


----------



## Radkat

LO's sleep has been all over the place lately. 2 weeks ago she was waking up 6-8x/night with 3 feedings. Then last week we had 3 nights where she had some difficulty going to sleep, but was only up once to eat. I was SO hopeful that this was a transition, but alas no. The last 3 nights her wakeups have gotten earlier and more frequent, back to 2 feedings and multiple wakeups. Her schedule is so all over the place it's hard to know if she's hungry or just fussy. Last night I tried to soothe her without feeding for over 45 minutes off and on, (she would fall asleep, then be up again in 5 minutes), then I finally fed her and she slept for another 2 hours. I've brought her into bed with us every morning for the last couple of weeks (she wakes between 5 & 6am) to get a bit more sleep. She's usually up for good around 7am. Naps are still not good. Rarely more than 30 minutes unless we're in the car or stroller. 3 or 4 per day. 

She's 6.5 months and has been more fussy than usual lately. I'm not sure if that has anything to do with it.


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## Twister

Radcat, that sounds exactly like my LO a couple of weeks ago. Turns out she was ready for longer awake times and to drop from 3/4 naps to just 2 naps per day(I only realised this when a few people pointed it out to me after I posted in this thread). How long is your LO awake for between naps? My LO used to be awake for between 1.5-2hours, I'd put her down when she seemed sleepy but it was real hard work getting her to nap. I now try to keep her up for 2.5-3 hours, sometimes a bit longer if she doesn't seem fussy and she goes down a lot easier now and she even self settles sometimes. I've noticed an improvement in her night sleep too, she still wakes anywhere between 2-4 times but she's a lot easier to settle and I'm now getting some 4 hour chunks of sleep as opposed to just two hours.

I'm basically just rehashing the advice I was given here, but It can be quite a rough transition as LO gets used to being awake longer and bedtime may need to be shifted forward or a while to prevent over tiredness but I think in the long run you'll notice significant improvements to your LO's sleep. My LO can start getting quite grumpy after 2 hours but I know that if I took her up that soon it would take me ages to get her to sleep and then she'd only nap for half an hour as opposed to an hour/1.5 hours. It just take a bit of time for them to adjust to their new routine.


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## polaris

Clara's sleep is still awful. However she has come down with an absolutely awful cold today so at least I have a reason why she woke up every single hour last night. I have a feeling tonight will be the same so I am off to bed myself now.

ETA - seaweed, so glad to hear that your LO's sleep is so much better. DS was a 5.30 a.m. riser for months - I did the same as Noelle and kept him up until 9 a.m. or as near as possible before putting him down for his first nap. It didn't work to get him to wake up later in the mornings but at least the rest of the day's routine wasn't off course. He went on waking early until he finally dropped to one nap at about 15 months.


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## Boo44

Ok girls - when do babies tend to transition to one nap?

We are back to one issue - early morning wakings. I know 6.30 may not sound early to many, but it is early for Jack, he has recently been sleeping past half 7! My ideal for him is 7am ...

He wakes happy and chatting and singing out. I have tried leaving him and he remains happy playing with his dummies in his cot for up to an hour!! 

His first nap is around 10. He usually has an hour but will sleep much longer if I let him. I always will wake him after 90 mins as it just seems too long to me!

He then has another nap around 2.30pm or 3. This is a funny one. Again I always wake him and never let him go for more than an hour. I like him to be up by 4pm latest

Bed is 7.30. He's usually absolutely fine and not too tired at bed time.

I get that I need to probably keep him awake longer in the morning an then hopefully he'll have a good sleep for longer (ie without me waking him!) and then will last for bed time... Thing is he's always very ready for his nap by 10.30am latest as he's awake early! So that's a bit early for a one nap day...?

Any thoughts much appreciated :)


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## Radkat

Thanks, Twister. I'm hoping she'll transition into some longer naps. She did have 2 naps last week that were longer, 1 hour, that were not facilitated by the car/stroller, so I'm hoping that will continue. My OH stays with her during the day and I know he's trying to stretch her in between times a bit. Maybe this will work? And I have been moving up her bedtime a bit, a few minutes each day. But it's so hard with how light it is late now. We really need black out curtains. She's been looking at the window like, why are you putting me to bed now?


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## Shadowy Lady

Seaweed - so happy things are looking better sleep wise for your LO. We also did have early rising with Sofia and we did as Noelle said (isn't she the best?) and it worked out for us.

Boo - wish I could help! Sofia sleeps till 7:00 am 50% of the time and then 6-6:30 am other 50%. It doesn't seem to matter what i she just randomly pick a wake up time :/

Polaris - sorry to hear Clara has a cold. Hope she feels better soon and you get some much needed rest.

I haven't been around as Sofia has actually been sleeping through 7 pm to 7 am again for the past week. Now she does stir around 9 pm but it takes a few mins for her to go back down and I'm still awake then so it doesn't bother me...

I'm back to not sleeping myself though booooooo!!! Noelle, I sent you a pm on this...


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## seaweed eater

Thanks ladies. I will try to keep the 9 AM rule then. Good to know that that's what you all do. Polaris, it sounds like our babies are similar in some ways, so it's always good to hear about your experiences! :hugs: Munchkin used to wake up at 5:30 or earlier almost every day, but he seemed happy and well rested (and was on 5 naps a day!) so I didn't mind it as much (ok, I did mind a little for my sake and DH's :winkwink:). It's unusual for him to wake up tired as he's been doing this week. Usually when he's up, he's up.

Polaris, I'm sorry to hear you are dealing with illness right now, that is so exhausting...hope you get some rest tonight and Clara is better soon :hugs: hang in there!

Radkat, I agree with what Twister said. I hope the transition goes well for you and results in longer naps soon. :hugs: We're about a month into it and LO still isn't consistently napping for long enough, but at least he went from 30 minutes on the dot to usually more like 45, and like yours he occasionally has longer ones. I've learned that, even so, it's better to extend his wake times -- otherwise I spend literally the entire day trying to get him to nap. We're both much happier with a routine. I'm just waiting and hoping for those longer naps one of these days.

Twister, I'm glad you are finding the longer WTs better :thumbup: we are, too!

Boo, I don't have experience with this, but I guess maybe you just have to try it? I found with moving to 2 naps it helped to figure out what kind of routine we would need in order for it to work, and then try that even though it seemed crazy...so I'm guessing if one nap is going to happen, you would want to keep Jack up until at least 11 (and maybe gradually move that later?) and let him sleep for up to like 2.5 hours, something like that...

Shadowy, it's so great to hear Sofia is sleeping through again! :happydance: I thought of you this weekend because I could have SWORN Munchkin was teething, but I know better than to jump to that conclusion :haha: I really hope your sleep improves. :hugs:


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## seaweed eater

Gahhhhh! Back to crying and fighting. And clutching his mouth. I know we've had a million false alarms but I really really think he is actually teething this time! That or I'm crazy!!

He seemed really uncomfortable so I gave him some Tylenol and nursed him a second time. He didn't seem hungry and didn't fall asleep, so we're back to crying, but it made me wonder -- those of you who have sleep trained, when do you relax your rules about sleep if LO seems unwell? Do you just go with your gut feeling or do you have some second-order rules about that?


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## bananaz

seaweed eater said:


> Gahhhhh! Back to crying and fighting. And clutching his mouth. I know we've had a million false alarms but I really really think he is actually teething this time! That or I'm crazy!!
> 
> He seemed really uncomfortable so I gave him some Tylenol and nursed him a second time. He didn't seem hungry and didn't fall asleep, so we're back to crying, but it made me wonder -- those of you who have sleep trained, when do you relax your rules about sleep if LO seems unwell? Do you just go with your gut feeling or do you have some second-order rules about that?


My LO was really ill for about a week during some of my gentle sleep training. I went with my gut and was a lot more responsive to her during that time (e.g. I went in immediately instead of waiting for a few minutes), however she was still nursing well during the day so I continued not offering the boob at night because I knew that she wasn't dehydrated or hungry and I didn't want to backslide into having a bunch of night feeds. 

When she's teething badly I give her ibuprofen before bed and then have a dose ready in her room for the nighttime just in case, but pretty much everything else stays the same. I think that if I changed my nighttime response every time she teethed that would be really confusing for her.

Anyway, big hugs to you, I hope you both get some sleep soon :hugs:


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## stephie_corin

I've got a terrible terrible sleeper who also fights naps and is awake for the day at 530. Seems like a common theme! We do three naps at 8, 1130,3 for about half hour/45 mins. We have awake times of 2.5-3 hours so he is awake for 10+ hours a day.

I think we need to drop to 2 naps.

I'm just wondering what awake times people have been doing for a six month old? If we stick to the 2.5-3 hours but drop to 2 naps he will only have been awake for 8.5 hours and I don't think it is enough for him to fall asleep at the end of the day.


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## seaweed eater

Welcome Stephie :wave: some people do 2-3-4, but that only adds up to 9, which isn't enough for my LO either. We tend to aim for 3-3.5 and it all works itself out somehow, either one of them ends up being longer naturally or we move bedtime a bit earlier for the day. (You will probably have to move bedtime earlier as you transition, anyway.)


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## Twister

My LO usually goes 2.5-3 hours before she gets impossibly grumpy and needs to nap, occasionally (usually after her second nap) she will go 3.5 or even 4 hours. It's all a bit trial and error to begin with, just find what works for your LO :)

So Jessica's sleep is improving. We're settling in nicely into a two nap routine, it's great knowing roughly when she will need a nap and I feel like I have a lot more time to do things with LO and around the house as I'm not constantly trying to get her to nap. When we put her down for bed, she goes down fine. I usually try and bf her before she goes down to top her up but she doesn't always want it depending on when her last feed was and how much she ate at dinner. She usually wakes an hour after being put down, I think this is from hunger especially if she wasn't hungry at bed time and she usually has a good feel, then she wakes again two hours later. The past couple of nights after these two wakings she has done a 4 hour stint, fed and then back to bed for another 4 hour stint. Does this sound ok? I'm not sure about the two initial wakings, it's probably normal though, right?


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## stephie_corin

Thanks girls :) I desperately need to sort my feeding to sleep issues too... It's the only time he will feed, otherwise he is too distracted. My only hesitation at dropping to 2 naps is he will only have three day feeds! I'm going to work tomorrow on breaking the habit and will report back on our new 2 nap schedule. I'm praying it helps his night sleep too. I'm not sure how much longer I can walk around like a mean zombie! X


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## Noelle610

Hi Stephanie! Try the 2/3/4... My LO transitioned to 2 naps around that age!

Twister, what time is her last real breastfeed, dinner and then bedtime?


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## Twister

It varies really as she's fed very much on demand still. I usually try and time it an hour before dinner which is usually around 5/6, but sometimes she bf's right before dinner (we blw so food isn't really about filling her up yet) bedtime is anytime between 6-7 depending on when her last nap was. Sometimes her last feed will fall right before bed, so she has a good proper feed then. Sorry if that's confusing!


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## seaweed eater

Stephie, have you ever tried feeding him right after he wakes up? At the height of his distractibility mine would only feed when falling asleep and right after waking up. Or do you think he wouldn't be hungry, if he's used to going a very long time between feeds at the moment?


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## NotNic

Boo - I started eeking Finlay's nap out by 15mins every couple of days to try to get the nap to be after lunch instead. When i got it up to around 11.30 I found offering him a short nap (in the car etc.) worked best and we could get him to sleep after 1pm for a proper nap (at least 90mins) His need for 1 nap is a bit hit and miss though. Sometimes he really does need 2 otherwise he is falling asleep at dinner. He definitely seems sleepier the past week.


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## Noelle610

Twister, I think in your shoes I'd continue feeding on demand. You could re-evaluate when she's 9 months or so and has more solids. They're purely supplementary at this time.

Boo, sorry I missed your post! How is his sleep at night otherwise? I'm always hesitant to recommend one nap before a year, but of course there are babies that transition early and do really well with it.


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## mrsbeano

Boo44 said:


> Ok girls - when do babies tend to transition to one nap?
> 
> We are back to one issue - early morning wakings. I know 6.30 may not sound early to many, but it is early for Jack, he has recently been sleeping past half 7! My ideal for him is 7am ...
> 
> He wakes happy and chatting and singing out. I have tried leaving him and he remains happy playing with his dummies in his cot for up to an hour!!
> 
> His first nap is around 10. He usually has an hour but will sleep much longer if I let him. I always will wake him after 90 mins as it just seems too long to me!
> 
> He then has another nap around 2.30pm or 3. This is a funny one. Again I always wake him and never let him go for more than an hour. I like him to be up by 4pm latest
> 
> Bed is 7.30. He's usually absolutely fine and not too tired at bed time.
> 
> I get that I need to probably keep him awake longer in the morning an then hopefully he'll have a good sleep for longer (ie without me waking him!) and then will last for bed time... Thing is he's always very ready for his nap by 10.30am latest as he's awake early! So that's a bit early for a one nap day...?
> 
> Any thoughts much appreciated :)

You could try only offering a cat nap of 15 minutes in the morning and then a long lunchtime nap. I believe that the one who can't be named suggests 15 minutes at 9am and then sleeping from 12-2 and in bed at 7-7. A mum friend follows this religiously and it works for her LO who is the same age as Quinn (well 2 days older).

I can't imagine Quinn coping on that amount of sleep! He does 3 hrs awake, 90 mins sleep in the morning and afternoon. 

I've so got a bit lost on this thread haha. I don't recognise everyone anymore... that's what happens when you're back at work I suppose!


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## Twister

Thanks Noelle! Some days I don't manage to get dinner prepped in timeand she ends up skipping it like tonight. Her second nap was only 30 mins and she was sooooo ready for bed by the time dinner was in the oven so I just put her to bed:shrug: I figured its ok at this early stage of weaning where she's not eating to satisfy hunger and whilst she's still getting used to her new nap routine.

Era: she's just woken up an hour after being put to 'bed' and whereas usually she'd just feed and go back to sleep she's flat out refusing this time and is doing that thing she was doing a week or so ago where she'd just scream as soon as I attempted to get her to sleep in her cot. Not sure if its teething as her cheeks look a bit red but she also seems ready to play too. Maybe I should have made her stay up longer after all.


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## Noelle610

MrsBeano, I think that's a good idea. They're trying transition Charlotte to 1 nap at daycare and they'll offer her a 30 minute nap at 9am and then she'll nap around 12:30pm/1pm usually for 2 hours. Seems to work well.


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## mrsbeano

Twister said:


> Thanks Noelle! Some days I don't manage to get dinner prepped in timeand she ends up skipping it like tonight. Her second nap was only 30 mins and she was sooooo ready for bed by the time dinner was in the oven so I just put her to bed:shrug: I figured its ok at this early stage of weaning where she's not eating to satisfy hunger and whilst she's still getting used to her new nap routine.
> 
> Era: she's just woken up an hour after being put to 'bed' and whereas usually she'd just feed and go back to sleep she's flat out refusing this time and is doing that thing she was doing a week or so ago where she'd just scream as soon as I attempted to get her to sleep in her cot. Not sure if its teething as her cheeks look a bit red but she also seems ready to play too. Maybe I should have made her stay up longer after all.

We get this sometimes. Give her 5 minutes and listen to her. If she's like my LO, she might scream for 2 minutes, chat for 2 and then go back to sleep when she remembers she's tired. Worth a go.


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## Boo44

mrsbeano said:


> Boo44 said:
> 
> 
> Ok girls - when do babies tend to transition to one nap?
> 
> We are back to one issue - early morning wakings. I know 6.30 may not sound early to many, but it is early for Jack, he has recently been sleeping past half 7! My ideal for him is 7am ...
> 
> He wakes happy and chatting and singing out. I have tried leaving him and he remains happy playing with his dummies in his cot for up to an hour!!
> 
> His first nap is around 10. He usually has an hour but will sleep much longer if I let him. I always will wake him after 90 mins as it just seems too long to me!
> 
> He then has another nap around 2.30pm or 3. This is a funny one. Again I always wake him and never let him go for more than an hour. I like him to be up by 4pm latest
> 
> Bed is 7.30. He's usually absolutely fine and not too tired at bed time.
> 
> I get that I need to probably keep him awake longer in the morning an then hopefully he'll have a good sleep for longer (ie without me waking him!) and then will last for bed time... Thing is he's always very ready for his nap by 10.30am latest as he's awake early! So that's a bit early for a one nap day...?
> 
> Any thoughts much appreciated :)
> 
> You could try only offering a cat nap of 15 minutes in the morning and then a long lunchtime nap. I believe that the one who can't be named suggests 15 minutes at 9am and then sleeping from 12-2 and in bed at 7-7. A mum friend follows this religiously and it works for her LO who is the same age as Quinn (well 2 days older).
> 
> I can't imagine Quinn coping on that amount of sleep! He does 3 hrs awake, 90 mins sleep in the morning and afternoon.
> 
> I've so got a bit lost on this thread haha. I don't recognise everyone anymore... that's what happens when you're back at work I suppose!Click to expand...

Thanks for suggestion! Hmm Jack has a max of 2.5 hours day sleep. Often less! Maybe I'm not giving him enough?!


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## Boo44

Noelle610 said:


> Twister, I think in your shoes I'd continue feeding on demand. You could re-evaluate when she's 9 months or so and has more solids. They're purely supplementary at this time.
> 
> Boo, sorry I missed your post! How is his sleep at night otherwise? I'm always hesitant to recommend one nap before a year, but of course there are babies that transition early and do really well with it.

Ahh ok maybe I'm rushing things then :) All I wondered if his early wakings were due to being undertired that's all..

He sleeps 7.30-6.30 or 7am. Recently he's done a lot of nights where he stirs around 6 and sleeps until 7.30! But we seem to be back to waking fully around 6.30. Tbh he sleeps really well *touch wood* and self settles and causes us no bother. But I'm always wondering about his day sleep affecting his night sleep! I do like a good obsess....haha!!

We're off on holiday on sat for a week. It's only an hour time difference so that won't matter. But I'm hoping it doesn't royally mess up everything we've worked for!


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## Twister

I've decided to leave her upstairs for a bit, she seems happy and isn't making much noise, if any. The only problem is she's placed on her back (tummy sleeper) as she just ends up rolling over onto her back when she's awake so I figured there wasn't much point putting her on her tummy. She also has a dummy and has a tendency to spit it out a lot until she goes to sleep. We'll see if she settles but I doubt it.

I think part of it is how light the evenings are now. Especially as the sun sets at the back of the house and that's where her room is. Unfortunately we don't have the spare money for black out blinds right now though.


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## Noelle610

Twister, that could be any number of things from being overtired to separation anxiety. I agree with the advice to give her five and if not soothe back to sleep.


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## Noelle610

Boo, it sounds like he's doing beautifully! Unfortunately (for us) most babies' natural biological wake-up time is between 6am and 7am. 11 hours of overnight sleep is also normal/very good, so he's right on target.

I have a lot of traveling to do in June and I'm terrified for sleep too!


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## Boo44

Twister - try hanging up dark coloured towels at the window! We have cream blackout blinds in Jack's room (I thought they were prettier lol) and they don't do the job well. I wondered if that's why he was waking early so I hung towels over the blind and it did work! Just a thought..


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## Boo44

Noelle610 said:


> Boo, it sounds like he's doing beautifully! Unfortunately (for us) most babies' natural biological wake-up time is between 6am and 7am. 11 hours of overnight sleep is also normal/very good, so he's right on target.
> 
> I have a lot of traveling to do in June and I'm terrified for sleep too!

Thanks :) I do realise people will read my posts and think 'ffs woman what are you moaning about!' But I do realise he's a fab sleeper now. And I am countin my lucky stars!! I just love this thread and the ladies on it so I read every day lol <3


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## Noelle610

Boo44 said:


> Noelle610 said:
> 
> 
> Boo, it sounds like he's doing beautifully! Unfortunately (for us) most babies' natural biological wake-up time is between 6am and 7am. 11 hours of overnight sleep is also normal/very good, so he's right on target.
> 
> I have a lot of traveling to do in June and I'm terrified for sleep too!
> 
> Thanks :) I do realise people will read my posts and think 'ffs woman what are you moaning about!' But I do realise he's a fab sleeper now. And I am countin my lucky stars!! I just love this thread and the ladies on it so I read every day lol <3Click to expand...

Haha I know what you mean! Sometimes I get fussed about Charlotte waking at like 5:45am or one night waking and I'm like... HOLD ON! Do you remember how bad it used to be?


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## Twister

Thanks I will try the towel thing, I'll get some cheap ones from Asda next time I go.

She didn't settle and started getting increasingly worked up so after 5 mins or so i went back in and I'm nursing her again now. I hope all this feeding means she will go longer once she does drop off:haha:


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## seaweed eater

How was the rest of the night, Twister? :hugs:

We're having a setback here. Second night in a row with lots of crying. And I put him down late to begin with because DH let him take a late third nap today, so his last WT was only an hour and a half. He seemed exhausted when I put him down but woke up very upset 10 minutes later. I think he needs a much earlier bedtime for at least a few days, and I'm also questioning myself again on whether he's really ready for two naps. Was he fighting naps before because he was just overtired or unable to fall asleep? The past few days he's been getting tired long before every nap. I don't know, I know I wasn't expecting him to want two naps at this age so it was his behavior that made me think he wanted to transition, but at the same time it's been over a month now and I'm still waiting for those consistently longer naps. :shrug:


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## bananaz

seaweed eater said:


> How was the rest of the night, Twister? :hugs:
> 
> We're having a setback here. Second night in a row with lots of crying. And I put him down late to begin with because DH let him take a late third nap today, so his last WT was only an hour and a half. He seemed exhausted when I put him down but woke up very upset 10 minutes later. I think he needs a much earlier bedtime for at least a few days, and I'm also questioning myself again on whether he's really ready for two naps. Was he fighting naps before because he was just overtired or unable to fall asleep? The past few days he's been getting tired long before every nap. I don't know, I know I wasn't expecting him to want two naps at this age so it was his behavior that made me think he wanted to transition, but at the same time it's been over a month now and I'm still waiting for those consistently longer naps. :shrug:


Most babies are ready to move toward 2 naps at that age, but that doesn't mean it's always an easy process. The earlier bedtime sounds like a good idea. 

Looking over my sleep logs, my LO started dropping down to 2 naps at 6.5 months but her nap lengths were super variable and she frequently had a third ~20 minute catnap in the late afternoon. A month later, that catnap had pretty much disappeared but she still had some days with 30-45 minute naps. By 8/9 months most of her naps were at least an hour long and they were starting to happen at more consistent times.

So yeah... it's a long process and it's not fun but once you get to the other side life gets much better! Aaaand then they decide to drop to one nap and it starts all over again :dohh:


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## seaweed eater

Thanks Bananaz :hugs: is it normal for them to keep having 2 short naps for months then? I just thought the evidence that it was working would be if he started napping for longer after, say, a couple weeks of stretching out his wake times...I think 70-80% of his naps are still 40 mins or less. Is a couple weeks unreasonably short to expect things to start working themselves out? Maybe I should try it for another week. Trying the sleep training probably did disrupt things quite a bit... :shrug:


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## Twister

She's been up every 2 hours tonight. I am exhausted. It's 5am and I think in going to have a job settling her again.


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## stephie_corin

Wow we had the worst night in a long time last night. He would only sleep in my arms in the rocker and was awake every 15-20 minutes. I actually got no sleep last night except for an hour between 5-6 when DH took over. We are going to try two naps today and I will deal with his feeding issues later!

How was everyone's night?


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## stephie_corin

Twister said:


> She's been up every 2 hours tonight. I am exhausted. It's 5am and I think in going to have a job settling her again.

That sux, sorry hon!!!


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## Twister

Seriously why won't she stay asleep :( I've nursed her 3 times till she's asleep, sat with her in my arms for 15 minutes the last time just to make sure, then as I was putting her in her cot she spat her dummy on the floor and all hell broke loose. I hate when she does this. So frustrating.


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## bananaz

seaweed eater said:


> Thanks Bananaz :hugs: is it normal for them to keep having 2 short naps for months then? I just thought the evidence that it was working would be if he started napping for longer after, say, a couple weeks of stretching out his wake times...I think 70-80% of his naps are still 40 mins or less. Is a couple weeks unreasonably short to expect things to start working themselves out? Maybe I should try it for another week. Trying the sleep training probably did disrupt things quite a bit... :shrug:

I don't know if my LO is any measure of "normal" but most of her naps were in the 30-40 minute range until around 7 months, and even after then she still had random short nap days. 

What does his schedule look like right now? Maybe you could give him a third catnap if he has a really long awake stretch before bed?


----------



## bananaz

Twister said:


> Seriously why won't she stay asleep :( I've nursed her 3 times till she's asleep, sat with her in my arms for 15 minutes the last time just to make sure, then as I was putting her in her cot she spat her dummy on the floor and all hell broke loose. I hate when she does this. So frustrating.

:hugs: It's so hard to reconcile this behavior with all those adorable smiley pictures you've posted of her! I'm sure after the third try at putting her down she becomes less cute though. I hope she gives you a break soon.


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## Twister

Aww thanks, she's such a little darling during the day. I can cope if she refuses to nap bit night time sleep is so much harder to deal with! I'm putting it down to the fact that she had a poor second nap yesterday and is overtired. Hopefully today will be better.

I think (I hope) I may have gotten her down finally, only took 50 minutes!:dohh: I'm off to bed hopefully she will sleep for another couple of hours.


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## Twister

She slept for a grand total of 30 minutes before she wanted to get up for the day:sleep:


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## polaris

I am seriously thinking about going back to co-sleeping for a bit. I don't know if that's a silly idea or sensible!

Both of us are quite unwell at the moment with a rotten cold and the last two nights I have brought her into bed with me at about 10 or 11 p.m. (a combination of her not settling at all in the cot and me not feeling well enough to cope with going in and out to her room every hour or less). Anyway the first night she was really unwell and awake crying a lot in distress so neither of us got very much sleep. Last night she was quite distressed at about 10 p.m. and I had to get her up for an hour and walk round with her to calm her down, then I brought her into bed with me and she actually settled down and slept for pretty much the rest of the night. She stirred a couple of times but went straight back to sleep when she realized I was there and she had a very brief feed at 4 a.m. but other than that straight through to 6.30. Now I realize this could be a once off due to being exhausted after the night before or whatever, but this is totally different to when we used to co-sleep when she still woke every hour and needed resettling or a feed or whatever. 

So here are my reasons for and against:

For co-sleeping:
She would be happier with that sleeping arrangement (no question about that)
She would possibly sleep better?
I would possibly sleep better in that I wouldn't have to get out of bed a million times a night.
I might be less tired and irritable during the day

Against co-sleeping:
All the reasons that I stopped in the first place.
Our bed is too small for three of us so OH would have to sleep in spare room
Would it end up being a long term arrangement, which I don't really want?
What about naps and evenings before I go to bed, would she start refusing to settle in cot at all (which was the case in the past)
It feels a bit silly to go back after all the work I did to get her comfortable settling in the cot.

Thoughts anyone? I never had this with DS, he never wanted to co-sleep and actually I ended up having to move him to his own room at four months (earlier than I had planned) because we were disturbing him. But Clara is so different to him in regard to sleep.


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## polaris

Twister, your LO reminds me of Clara in regard to sleep. Clara is also the easiest baby in the world during the day and no-one can believe the difficulties I have with her sleeping. I do think some babies just do not naturally sleep well no matter what we do. Wish I had useful advice...

Seaweed, I agree with bananaz. Unfortunately for many babies nap transitions occur over an extended period. Some babies seem to be fine with abrupt transitions but others it just takes longer. DS always struggled with nap transitions and we are still going through this as he drops his final nap at the moment. Some days he needs a nap and some days he doesn't. If the average for going through a nap transition was 6 to 9 months, you could bet that DS would be going through the nap transition for the entire three month period rather than just dropping the nap at some point during the time-span. I think the only way to get through it is to be flexible and go with the flow for a bit, if your LO needs a third nap some days then I would just go with that and give him a later bedtime those days and an earlier bedtime when he only has two naps. It does make for disrupted sleep for a bit but I don't know of any other way to do it for babies who need more gradual transitions. 

Stephie, so sorry you had such a terrible night too hun.


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## Twister

Ugh naps have been all over the place today. Because she woke so early she napped early too which wouldn't have been a problem if it weren't for the fact that she only slept for 45 minutes. She's just had her second nap which she only slept for 30 minutes, tried to get her back to sleep as she's obviously still tired but no dice so I've brought her down but she's so cranky. No doubt im going to have to put her down again soon especially as its only 1:30pm and there's no way she'd last till 6 or even 5pm for bed:dohh:


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## Noelle610

Polaris, it sounds like a good case for co-sleeping. How does OH feel about it? I think it has to be a family decision.

Twister, we had some 2 and some 3 nap days during that transition. Would your LO possibly do a short nap around 4pm to tide her over until bedtime?


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## bananaz

We are on day three of pre-5am wakeups here :coffee:

For some reason the early wakings irritate me more than any of her other bad sleep habits and I've found myself getting seriously angry with her. I think a lot of it is that she's so hard to handle during the day and I'm just not ready to start dealing with that so early in the morning. If she were a happy self-entertaining cherub while awake that might be okay at 4:45 but instead she's a pissed off little dictator who hits me and screams if I do anything other than hold her and read Madeline a thousand times in a row. This gets really old really fast when she acts this way for 10+ hours every day.

She's now getting completely hysterical and beating my leg with her Mother Goose book (which I just read to her 4 freaking times!!) so I should probably go.


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## bananaz

Also, WTF is with this rhyme??



> As I went to Bonner
> I met a pig
> Without a wig
> Upon my word and honor


----------



## socitycourty

bananaz said:


> We are on day three of pre-5am wakeups here :coffee:
> 
> For some reason the early wakings irritate me more than any of her other bad sleep habits and I've found myself getting seriously angry with her. I think a lot of it is that she's so hard to handle during the day and I'm just not ready to start dealing with that so early in the morning. If she were a happy self-entertaining cherub while awake that might be okay at 4:45 but instead she's a pissed off little dictator who hits me and screams if I do anything other than hold her and read Madeline a thousand times in a row. This gets really old really fast when she acts this way for 10+ hours every day.
> 
> She's now getting completely hysterical and beating my leg with her Mother Goose book (which I just read to her 4 freaking times!!) so I should probably go.

Ok I'm sorry for laughing out loud here about her beating your leg with a book....it's just funny.

But I agree about the early morning wakings being irritating. Pre-and even during pregnancy I could spring out of bed at 5 a.m. no problem even after going to bed at 11 p.m.

But I think the problem is my sleep is so interrupted that I am in a good deep sleep between 4-6 a.m. and then she wakes me up and I feel very groggy and then I feel really mad almost like rage. I just wake up thinking give me a f*cking break!!

I also agree about hard to handle during the day.I was in tears yesterday becuase I was trying to go in the kitchen and do the dishes and she would scream, cry and rattle the gate.

Also I can't get much done during her 40 minute naps (sometimes only 1 now) let alone catch my breath and figure out how I'll survive this.

so I totally feel your pain. I just got up and I'm in a rather bad mood already


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## socitycourty

bananaz said:


> Also, WTF is with this rhyme??
> 
> 
> 
> As I went to Bonner
> I met a pig
> Without a wig
> Upon my word and honorClick to expand...

written by an insane, hallucinating, sleep deprived parent? LOL


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## Noelle610

bananaz said:


> We are on day three of pre-5am wakeups here :coffee:
> 
> For some reason the early wakings irritate me more than any of her other bad sleep habits and I've found myself getting seriously angry with her. I think a lot of it is that she's so hard to handle during the day and I'm just not ready to start dealing with that so early in the morning. If she were a happy self-entertaining cherub while awake that might be okay at 4:45 but instead she's a pissed off little dictator who hits me and screams if I do anything other than hold her and read Madeline a thousand times in a row. This gets really old really fast when she acts this way for 10+ hours every day.
> 
> She's now getting completely hysterical and beating my leg with her Mother Goose book (which I just read to her 4 freaking times!!) so I should probably go.

I understand. Charlotte's fairly demanding too, so I NEED "alone" time before she wakes. Anything before 6am is just torture if I'm nto working that day. I love being with her, but I value my sanity too.

What's the rest of Elsie's schedule like now? When is bedtime? How do you respond to the early morning wake-up?


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## bananaz

socitycourty said:


> Ok I'm sorry for laughing out loud here about her beating your leg with a book....it's just funny.
> 
> But I agree about the early morning wakings being irritating. Pre-and even during pregnancy I could spring out of bed at 5 a.m. no problem even after going to bed at 11 p.m.
> 
> But I think the problem is my sleep is so interrupted that I am in a good deep sleep between 4-6 a.m. and then she wakes me up and I feel very groggy and then I feel really mad almost like rage. I just wake up thinking give me a f*cking break!!
> 
> I also agree about hard to handle during the day.I was in tears yesterday becuase I was trying to go in the kitchen and do the dishes and she would scream, cry and rattle the gate.
> 
> Also I can't get much done during her 40 minute naps (sometimes only 1 now) let alone catch my breath and figure out how I'll survive this.
> 
> so I totally feel your pain. I just got up and I'm in a rather bad mood already


:hugs: Man, those 40 minute naps are awful, I'm so sorry you're still dealing with those on top of the nighttime stuff. I think you're totally right about being in a deep sleep at 4-5am and that contributing to the early morning rage (and yes, there is definitely rage here sometimes, haha)




socitycourty said:


> written by an insane, hallucinating, sleep deprived parent? LOL

OMG you're totally right! :rofl:


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## Boo44

Ohh bananaz big hugs from me. I too absolutely _hate_ early morning wakings with a passion so I understand feeling angry!! Hopefully it's just a random phase. I try to console myself that whenever LO starts a new random thing it *usually* only lasts 2 wks max...


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## Twister

I get early morning rage too. Especially after a night of 2 hourly wake ups. Anything before 7 am is torture to me, 6am is tolerable I guess but I'm really not a morning person at all.

Just been trying to get her to nap, she wasn't having it and I was loosing patience so I left her to cry for 10 minutes while I laid on my bed and wallowed. Feel awful about it and when I came back her face was soaking wet :( definitely don't think she's ready for any kind of crying sleep training yet, and neither am I tbh. She's asleep now after a cuddle, how long for I don't know. Today has been crappy.


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## bananaz

Noelle610 said:


> I understand. Charlotte's fairly demanding too, so I NEED "alone" time before she wakes. Anything before 6am is just torture if I'm nto working that day. I love being with her, but I value my sanity too.
> 
> What's the rest of Elsie's schedule like now? When is bedtime? How do you respond to the early morning wake-up?

Yeah, just 10-15 minutes of alone time really can make a world of difference.

For the past week and a half she's been down to only one nap which is around 10:30am-12:30pm, then she goes to bed around 7:30pm. I know that that is a really long awake time for her age but she was having early wakings back when she had an afternoon nap too so I'm not sure what to think. In fact, when we switched to this schedule that's when she finally started sleeping in until 6am. I wish I knew what changed!

The first night she woke early I waited for 10 minutes see if she would resettle herself, then when she didn't I thought "Well maybe she's just a little hungry" so I went in, changed her diaper, nursed her and put her back down. Didn't work, she was up for the day.

The second night I waited for a half hour. She tried to resettle herself twice during that time but she couldn't and finally she started getting hysterical so I went in, changed her diaper, and tried patting her back to sleep. Didn't work, she was up for the day.

This morning I let her fuss for a bit and when it was clear she wasn't going back to sleep I just resigned myself to my fate and got her up.


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## bananaz

Boo44 said:


> Ohh bananaz big hugs from me. I too absolutely _hate_ early morning wakings with a passion so I understand feeling angry!! Hopefully it's just a random phase. I try to console myself that whenever LO starts a new random thing it *usually* only lasts 2 wks max...

Unfortunately I'm starting think her sleeping in until 6am was the random phase rather than the other way around :dohh:


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## Noelle610

Maybe this kind of approach would work:

https://www.sleeplady.com/baby-sleep/rise-shine-the-early-waking-toddler/#.UX7-Unc0iSo

I do think that last wake time is too long. I would try to gradually shift the nap to 1pm by increasing the time she's awake 20/30 minutes every few days. It's going to put you in an undertired/overtired loop that's hard to break.


----------



## bananaz

Noelle610 said:


> Maybe this kind of approach would work:
> 
> https://www.sleeplady.com/baby-sleep/rise-shine-the-early-waking-toddler/#.UX7-Unc0iSo
> 
> I do think that last wake time is too long. I would try to gradually shift the nap to 1pm by increasing the time she's awake 20/30 minutes every few days. It's going to put you in an undertired/overtired loop that's hard to break.

Thanks, I think you're right. She's going to be starting daycare part-time soon so the nap is going to have to move later anyway. To be honest the main reason I haven't moved it yet is because _I_ really need a break by 10:30 :blush:


----------



## Noelle610

bananaz said:


> Noelle610 said:
> 
> 
> Maybe this kind of approach would work:
> 
> https://www.sleeplady.com/baby-sleep/rise-shine-the-early-waking-toddler/#.UX7-Unc0iSo
> 
> I do think that last wake time is too long. I would try to gradually shift the nap to 1pm by increasing the time she's awake 20/30 minutes every few days. It's going to put you in an undertired/overtired loop that's hard to break.
> 
> Thanks, I think you're right. She's going to be starting daycare part-time soon so the nap is going to have to move later anyway. To be honest the main reason I haven't moved it yet is because _I_ really need a break by 10:30 :blush:Click to expand...

I hear you :haha:


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## polaris

Hi Bananaz, I agree with Noelle about shifting the nap forward gradually.


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## Boo44

bananaz said:


> Boo44 said:
> 
> 
> Ohh bananaz big hugs from me. I too absolutely _hate_ early morning wakings with a passion so I understand feeling angry!! Hopefully it's just a random phase. I try to console myself that whenever LO starts a new random thing it *usually* only lasts 2 wks max...
> 
> Unfortunately I'm starting think her sleeping in until 6am was the random phase rather than the other way around :dohh:Click to expand...

Eek!!


----------



## easyrhumba

polaris said:


> I am seriously thinking about going back to co-sleeping for a bit. I don't know if that's a silly idea or sensible!
> 
> Both of us are quite unwell at the moment with a rotten cold and the last two nights I have brought her into bed with me at about 10 or 11 p.m. (a combination of her not settling at all in the cot and me not feeling well enough to cope with going in and out to her room every hour or less). Anyway the first night she was really unwell and awake crying a lot in distress so neither of us got very much sleep. Last night she was quite distressed at about 10 p.m. and I had to get her up for an hour and walk round with her to calm her down, then I brought her into bed with me and she actually settled down and slept for pretty much the rest of the night. She stirred a couple of times but went straight back to sleep when she realized I was there and she had a very brief feed at 4 a.m. but other than that straight through to 6.30. Now I realize this could be a once off due to being exhausted after the night before or whatever, but this is totally different to when we used to co-sleep when she still woke every hour and needed resettling or a feed or whatever.
> 
> So here are my reasons for and against:
> 
> For co-sleeping:
> She would be happier with that sleeping arrangement (no question about that)
> She would possibly sleep better?
> I would possibly sleep better in that I wouldn't have to get out of bed a million times a night.
> I might be less tired and irritable during the day
> 
> Against co-sleeping:
> All the reasons that I stopped in the first place.
> Our bed is too small for three of us so OH would have to sleep in spare room
> Would it end up being a long term arrangement, which I don't really want?
> What about naps and evenings before I go to bed, would she start refusing to settle in cot at all (which was the case in the past)
> It feels a bit silly to go back after all the work I did to get her comfortable settling in the cot.
> 
> Thoughts anyone? I never had this with DS, he never wanted to co-sleep and actually I ended up having to move him to his own room at four months (earlier than I had planned) because we were disturbing him. But Clara is so different to him in regard to sleep.

I have been part time co- sleeping since the very beginning. I always start him out in whatever he is currently sleeping in ( first rock and play, then pack and play next to me, and now crib in his room) and then when he wakes up I bring him in with me. 

I think that since he starts in his crib Im not too worried about it being a long term arrangment. Well it could be, who knows right?:shrug: But thats a bridge I will cross when I get to it. I am not the happiest person without sleep and I think everyone benefits from our current sleeping arrangments.:blush:

I feel its whatever works best for you and keeps you sane!! :flower:


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## NotNic

I am sitting here nodding in agreement about the early wake ups. I have friends who wake at 6am and have a peaceful hour to get dressed and sorted out for the day before their Los wake. I would love that opportunity. Finlay still wakes between 5.30 and 6.30 every day. The later wake ups are normally after a restless night so I'm not in the best mood even with a later start. Like I tried to explain to my oh, he gets an easy start to the day - get dressed leisurely, walk to the station, train journey and then 2 hours after waking his working day begins. Mine starts before 7am and I'm on duty immediately. I have noticed we have more luck getting him back to sleep if oh settles him rather than me. If he sees me then its normally game over. Sometimes he's a happy chap but sometimes he's a real whinge bag and I spend much of the morning before his nap reminding him that its his own fault he's so tired!!


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## Boo44

^^I'm exactly the same!!! I spend so long saying to Jack 'well it's your own fault for waking up so early!' then always have to remind myself he is ten months old and has no idea what I'm going on about! Pleased I'm not the only one ;)

Also many a time have I lamented how OH gets a lovely drive to work listening to the radio with just his own company. Never thought I'd miss that kind of stuff!

Although I now have only 3 weeks until I return to work and I think it's sinking in, so over the past week I feel infinitely more patient and have actually missed Jack after bed time. I think I'm going crazy finally :haha:


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## Twister

I think tonight is going to be more of the same old s**t. She woke 1 hour after bed, abs then every 2 hours after that. I came to bed at 10:30, LO woke at 11 which I knew she would. Really could do with a 4 or even a 3 hour stretch of solid sleep so I have done energy for tomorrow.

I just don't know why she wakes so much. Seems like nothing I try works. It would be a lot easier to deal with if she was like this from birth but she was doing 4 hour stretches from the off, then 6, and right before it all went to pot she did 3 nine hour stretches in one week which was amazing and I thought we were on the right track.


----------



## Twister

I'm getting seriously annoyed now. It's coming up to 11:45 and every time I set her in her cot she wakes up and lifts her head up, tries to roll over etc. Why won't she just let me sleep. I feel like putting her down, going to bed with some ear plugs and just shutting her out. Of course I would never do that but it's getting old now I want my decent sleeper back. I cannot cope with this at all. As soon as it starts to get better it all goes to shit again and I can't do it anymore. I need some decent sleep. I know this won't last forever but the house is a tip and all LO does at the moment is moan because ages tired and I hate it.

Sorry for the pity party but its all starting to grate on me again, happens every couple of weeks or so then I'm ok again for a while.


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## daneuse27

Twister, is she breast or bottle fed?

My girl is 8 months, and if I didn't boob feed her to sleep, shed probably be doing the same thing. I nurse her until she's out cold, but her down and then she doesnt wake up when shes set in the crib.

If she does wake during the night, I pop a dummy in her mouth and she passes right back out. Will your girl take a dummy for sleeping?


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## Twister

BF.

She's bf to sleep most of the time and always during the night (especially on days like today but she can self settle when she wants to. It's 2am and I'm currently trying to fight with her to feed to sleep, but if I try any other method she'd just cry.

Dummy in the night she just spits out or turns her head away from.


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## seaweed eater

:hugs: :hugs: to everyone! I'm sorry so many of us are having a frustrating time :(

Twister, I know how that feeling of "OMG, this is SO not good enough" can come around. :hugs: Hang in there! Things WILL get better. I know it doesn't help that much to hear that when you don't really believe it. But we will support you whether you choose to wait it out or try to change things. I really hope it gets better soon.

I totally get the early wake up rage. I know I am really fortunate to be able to have this arrangement, but after I feed LO when he wakes up, DH takes over until he needs to get ready for work, and I get a nap. It's not always a long nap, but when it is, sometimes it's seriously the best sleep I've had all night. :coffee:

Polaris, I think all your reasoning is sound. It sounds like a tough decision, but whatever you decide, you know what you are getting into. Sorry, that's probably not very helpful. :hugs: I guess I wonder whether both options really are options though. I can understand your reservations, but if you ask yourself whether you are really open to having things continue this way...are you? It doesn't matter how much work you've done to get C into her own bed if that's just not a workable arrangement for you right now. KWIM?

I thought today was really good, then LO woke up after 45 minutes in bed and won't settle :dohh: I give up, it's all random. Isn't it? No sign of teeth yet, so...so much for that theory.

I guess we'll just have to wait it out with the nap stuff. Polaris, I like what you said about going with the flow. And Bananaz' suggestion about the late catnap. I don't want to confuse him by not having enough of a structure, but sometimes he really does need that third nap.

Bananaz, to answer your question about his usual schedule-- his first nap (at home) starts 9-10, then he often naps for about 5 minutes in the car around 12:30 on the way to daycare, then his daycare nap usually starts 2-3, then he naps for 5-10 minutes in the car around 5:15 on the way home. I can't really prevent him from taking those tiny car naps, because he can now apparently fall asleep almost as soon as the engine starts, but I don't mind too much at the moment because they seem to get him through (especially the long WT between naps).

50 minutes and counting trying to re-settle :( why, baby? Argh, after a 70-minute nap at daycare, and a peaceful early bedtime, too.


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## seaweed eater

I just hate hearing him cry and not going to him. Even for a minute. I know he won't fall asleep with me in the room so I have to give him time. But I hate it. :( I also don't want to stop hating it no matter how much sleep training we do. Know what I mean? I just want it to stop!

1 hr 11 mins...longest one yet. And we are 12 days in :(


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## seaweed eater

Hour and a half...what the f is going on?? Should we call the doctor? I don't even know how to deal with this.


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## stephie_corin

Has he been crying for an hour and a half? Sorry SE I haven't got up to date with the sleep training you are doing. X


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## stephie_corin

Twister said:


> I think tonight is going to be more of the same old s**t. She woke 1 hour after bed, abs then every 2 hours after that. I came to bed at 10:30, LO woke at 11 which I knew she would. Really could do with a 4 or even a 3 hour stretch of solid sleep so I have done energy for tomorrow.
> 
> I just don't know why she wakes so much. Seems like nothing I try works. It would be a lot easier to deal with if she was like this from birth but she was doing 4 hour stretches from the off, then 6, and right before it all went to pot she did 3 nine hour stretches in one week which was amazing and I thought we were on the right track.

((((Hugs))))) I could have written this. This is my LO exactly. He was a brilliant sleeper until 3.5 months and since then it's been hell!!


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## stephie_corin

So we tried two naps and I just couldn't make it happen. We did wake up 530, nap 820-9, nap 1145-1220 and I couldn't get him back to sleep, so he had another 30 minute nap around 3 to get him through to 6 when he fell asleep.

Night was usual, horrible night! Not counting the wakeups before I went to bed, he was awake between 11-1245, 2-230, 4-430 and up for the day at 510am. Yawn.

Until he starts taking longer naps I'm not sure we can transition to 2 naps but I will keep trying!! X


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## seaweed eater

He hasn't been crying the entire time, but most of the time. We are doing 3-min intervals with comforting/PUPD in between. The goal is just to get him to sleep without nursing but that seems to be the most effective thing. He's not really willing to accept comfort tonight but sometimes he will stop crying when DH picks him up. He's not screaming, just angry.

We took him out to the living room for 20 mins and sat with him. He was perfectly happy. His eyes look really tired but he was super alert and wanted to play. We just sat with him, though, and tried to keep it boring. When he got fussy I took him back in, sang him his bedtime song, and put him in bed. So now here we are again.

I really want to give up. But I don't want to change course in the middle of a night. DH is done. He wants to take him for a ride in the car and then let him sleep in his carseat. I don't want to do that but I have no idea how he's going to fall asleep otherwise. We started his bedtime routine over 3 hours ago.


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## gaiagirl

Oh Seaweed xxxxxx That is a rough night. I am about losing it here too, seriously. It feels like we have taken about 6 steps backwards right now. 

I know I haven't posted recently but I've been trying to follow now and again. 

Polaris - I part time cosleep and love it, it seriously saves me soooooo much precious sleep time. Up until this week it's been no problem with him sleeping in his crib naps/evenings and then bed at night. But then now he's gone insane and its all crap so I can't promise that won't happen! Lol

Twister - I know I have told you before but we have SUCH similar babies sleep wise! Mine was progressing so well until 3.5 months and then it's just been a roller coaster since. I get really irritated with evenings lately and last night was the worst in a long time. I cried, he cried (as I tried to get him to sleep without bfing). It was awful.

Sorry, those three are most recent in my mind so I can't remember everyone else's current situations.

Ahhhhhh so I'm back to feeling annoyed and impatient. Trying to just roll with it and stay calm. Wonder week 26 is kicking our butts. He's whiny and fussy and sprouts tears when he normally RARELY cries. And sleep is ridiculous. 

Overnight actually isn't terrible but evenings have sucked for a long time and this week they're even worse. No way will he let me transfer him to the crib.

Today he even battled me on naps which usually are his HIGH POINT! Yikes!

Anyways just feeling a bit stressed that we are yet again moving backwards. Naps today were lying down nursing in my bed, then I could roll away and leave him. Same deal for bed tonight. That feels like a huge step back :(


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## seaweed eater

I'm sorry you are struggling, Gaia :hugs: :hugs:

I just nursed him and he still won't settle in his crib. But now I guess he knows that if he cries for 2 hours he gets to nurse? :dohh:

Edited to add: he fell asleep during the interval after nursing. Kind of makes me feel worse, because he still nursed to sleep after all that. Where do we stand with the training now? Can we try again or is all lost?


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## socitycourty

i think you should just keep trying.

i would resist doing the car thing because then that just becomes another sleep aid. it works short term but you don't want to have to do that every time he gets wound up.

can you pump and have your Dh give him a bottle? that might help, night weaning is hard because it seems that's when they want to nurse the most


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## polaris

OK so we had an absolutely dreadful night last night. She napped most of the day yesterday so that might have been something to do with it - 3 hours in the morning and 2.5 hours in the afternoon - which I would never usually let her sleep that long but she has a rotten cold so I wanted to let her sleep if she needed it.

So she didn't wake up from her second nap until 5 p.m. I tried bedtime at 8 p.m. but she didn't want to settle, she finally went to sleep at about 8.30. She woke up at 9.30 and again at 10.30, at which point I took her into bed with me. She continued to wake up every hour until 2.30, at which point she woke up and stayed awake for 3 hours. For the first two hours just wanting to play and chat, pulling my hair, trying to crawl off the bed, etc. Then she started crying and cried inconsolably for about an hour despite me trying to nurse her, cuddle her, pain meds, etc. I tried putting her in the cot, I tried lying her on my chest, lying her on the bed beside me, tried nursing her to sleep. Nothing worked. In the end I had to bring her down to OH who somehow managed to get her to sleep.

I just feel so disheartened today. OK I know that she is sick and teething but I just can't see any light at the end of the tunnel at the moment. I was so optimistic about the co-sleeping option but after last night I really don't feel like it is going to be a runner. I just don't know what to do. Don't know if I can face letting her cry if it's going to be an ongoing thing - I don't have a problem with doing CC for a week or whatever (which we have done) but I'm really not willing to keep letting her cry a lot on an ongoing basis. I know I just have to wait till her cold is better and reassess the situation then.

Seaweed - I'm so sorry you had a rough night too. I would just keep going with the sleep training because it has generally been working really well for you, it sounds like just a random blip, who knows what that was about. Hope he slept OK the rest of the night.

Stephie, I think you're right, there's no way you could do two naps when he's still only taking short naps especially when he's up so early.

Gaiagirl, so sorry that things have taken a step backwards for you too. I so know that feeling. Wish I had any useful advice.


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## stephie_corin

Wow it looks like bad nights all round!

SE I'd stick with it another few days at least and if its still not working maybe give something else a try. One thing I've read is to nurse them to sleep, or close to bed time so they are sleepy, then reawaken gently and place the baby in their cot? Not sure if you have tried it. Apparently you can gradually extend the period between feeding and placing in their cot. I'm not one to advise though as I feed to sleep every night then hold him until the limp limbs take over!!!

Gaia, wonder week 26 sux!!! We are also struggling with naps, lots of tears!

Polaris, I'm so sorry your night was so bad. I get disheartened too when I can't get Culver to sleep, even after trying every trick in our book. Sleep is such a fundamental part of life and it feels horrid when you can't get your LO to sleep even though they are exhausted.

Not much advice from me, just lots of sympathy!!! X


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## Twister

:hugs: to everyone who needs them.

Last night was 'ok' after the 11pm wake up she woke at just before 2am, then not until 5am. She was a bit difficult to settle during all these wake ups but I got two blocks of almost 3 hours sleep, so better than usual. Except she would. Not. Settle at the 5 am wake up. I really think its because its so light at that time now so today I'm going to Asda and I'm buying some dark towels to put on her window to see if that helps. I brought her into my bed but she still wouldn't settle, I started getting frustrated so i put her back in her cot, but she just cried so I gave up. She's currently having her first nap, tried to keep her awake as long as possible so I really hope it's a long one so we can try and set up for a better night tonight.


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## Twister

Gahh, so much for a long nap. She only slept 40 minutes. This is really getting me down now :(


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## stephie_corin

Sorry Twister!!! Maybe her next nap will be good! We had a catnap first nap, I pushed him 3 hours and hello... Looks like a long nap! He's been down for almost an hour.

If he sleeps well at this nap what's the maximum I could push him until tonight? Is 5 hours way too long or should I give him a catnap in the afternoon? I don't know if over tiredness will make his night sleep even worse or if he will zonk out from tiredness.


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## stephie_corin

Oh I spoke too soon. AWAKE!


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## Twister

Jessica was up for 3.5 hours before I put her down, maybe I kept her up too long, it's difficult to find a good balance. 

I personally would try and sneak in a cat nap a couple of hours after he's woken up, that way he will still have a few hours to get tired before bedtime but won't be over tired.

Eta: an hour is good! Imo a decent nap is anything from an hour onwards :D


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## Noelle610

Seaweed, can you tell me a bit more about the sleep training you're doing? What's the method? I want to encourage you to stick with it, but I'm wondering if you can tweak the approach to minimize crying.

Gaia, WW 26, ugh! Don't loose heart, that was a bad one for us and none of them have been too horrible since. More whining that sleep deprivation!

Polaris, :hugs: I felt that way when I started this thread. I know it's hard to have perspective when you feel this way. 

Stephanie, I'm wondering if you might try the rule of "no naps" before 9am and 1pm to see if you could move to two. It's hard when they're waking that early.


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## Noelle610

Twister said:


> Jessica was up for 3.5 hours before I put her down, maybe I kept her up too long, it's difficult to find a good balance.

In the transition to one nap I'm really struggling to find the magic moment too, so I'm right there with you!

I'm kind of conflicted about the one nap thing right now. My daycare provider really wants to move her quickly, but it doesn't seem to be working. She gives the girls "quiet time" for 30 minutes in the morning. The other two babies just chill, but Charlie sleeps and then she wakes her up. Her second nap is now shorter than when she was doing two naps and she's super overtired at bedtime. It sucks. I want to ask her to go back to two naps, but I don't want to be demanding since the other girls seem ready and she really likes them on the same schedule. On Tuesday I was home with my girl and she took a 2 hour morning nap and 90 minute afternoon nap... That doesn't sound like a kid who is ready for one nap, IMO. Ugh.


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## mellyboo

I did 2 naps yesterday, I've really been trying but kind of struggling randomly with it..

she wanted to go to bed at 530 :S I ended up taking her to my parents house just up the road and she played there for a bit it took her mind off things i came back home for 7pm i put her down to bed she fell asleep as soon as she was layed down in the crib... woke up at 150am and 430am woke up for the day at 730 so all in all she had a good day..

just struggling with keeping her awake for the 2 naps.


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## Noelle610

mellyboo said:


> I did 2 naps yesterday, I've really been trying but kind of struggling randomly with it..
> 
> she wanted to go to bed at 530 :S I ended up taking her to my parents house just up the road and she played there for a bit it took her mind off things i came back home for 7pm i put her down to bed she fell asleep as soon as she was layed down in the crib... woke up at 150am and 430am woke up for the day at 730 so all in all she had a good day..
> 
> just struggling with keeping her awake for the 2 naps.

It's a hard transition, as is the 2-1. You're kind of damned if you do, because you have to guide them through the fussiness, and damned if you don't, because if they get too much daytime sleep it will start to interfere with night sleep when theyr'e ready to transition.


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## mellyboo

Noelle610 said:


> mellyboo said:
> 
> 
> I did 2 naps yesterday, I've really been trying but kind of struggling randomly with it..
> 
> she wanted to go to bed at 530 :S I ended up taking her to my parents house just up the road and she played there for a bit it took her mind off things i came back home for 7pm i put her down to bed she fell asleep as soon as she was layed down in the crib... woke up at 150am and 430am woke up for the day at 730 so all in all she had a good day..
> 
> just struggling with keeping her awake for the 2 naps.
> 
> It's a hard transition, as is the 2-1. You're kind of damned if you do, because you have to guide them through the fussiness, and damned if you don't, because if they get too much daytime sleep it will start to interfere with night sleep when theyr'e ready to transition.Click to expand...


I totally agree and I think its for the best she has 2 naps because she does sleep better we just need to keep her occupied to cut the fussing down last night she was just cry cry cry because she was tired.. but then she was laughing one minute.. i'm not sure she knew how to deal with her self we need to find idea's on how to keep her occupied to cut the fussing part until she is used to it LOL!..

Parenthood.... the fun! ahha


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## Noelle610

mellyboo said:


> Noelle610 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> mellyboo said:
> 
> 
> I did 2 naps yesterday, I've really been trying but kind of struggling randomly with it..
> 
> she wanted to go to bed at 530 :S I ended up taking her to my parents house just up the road and she played there for a bit it took her mind off things i came back home for 7pm i put her down to bed she fell asleep as soon as she was layed down in the crib... woke up at 150am and 430am woke up for the day at 730 so all in all she had a good day..
> 
> just struggling with keeping her awake for the 2 naps.
> 
> It's a hard transition, as is the 2-1. You're kind of damned if you do, because you have to guide them through the fussiness, and damned if you don't, because if they get too much daytime sleep it will start to interfere with night sleep when theyr'e ready to transition.Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I totally agree and I think its for the best she has 2 naps because she does sleep better we just need to keep her occupied to cut the fussing down last night she was just cry cry cry because she was tired.. but then she was laughing one minute.. i'm not sure she knew how to deal with her self we need to find idea's on how to keep her occupied to cut the fussing part until she is used to it LOL!..
> 
> Parenthood.... the fun! ahhaClick to expand...

So fun, right?

Going outside really helps.


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## seaweed eater

Yikes, I'm so sorry about all the bad nights :hugs: :hugs:

Polaris, I feel just the same way about crying. It's ok in the short term if it really improves things in the long term, but not if it's going to keep happening on a regular basis. :hugs: My heart goes out to you, hon. Does it help at all to make that separation in your mind between now when she has a cold and later once she's better? Definitely just do what you need to do to survive for now. You can focus on getting back into a routine once she is well.

Noelle, I think you are right that it sounds like she's not ready for one nap. I understand your DCP's concerns but she is working for you, so if what she's doing isn't working for C, then I think you are entitled to ask for a change. What do you think about the "quiet time" thing? I can understand how that could be seen as a way of transitioning to one nap, but it seems like it could also be neither here nor there, since C doesn't get a proper first nap but she also doesn't get the extended WT. I would find that a little annoying TBH.

Melly, I hear you, it sucks to have to keep them awake like that for so long! It sounds like it worked well for you in the end though. I hope she is used to it soon.

Stephie, I agree, almost an hour is good :thumbup: how was the rest of your day? My LO goes 5 hours sometimes at daycare but I wouldn't extend it that long myself.

Twister, how did bedtime end up going? 3.5 seems to be about right for us, often.

Thanks everyone for your support, last night ended up being fine once he was finally asleep but that one waking was so crazy! And to top it off he fell asleep with both his feet sticking out of the crib :dohh: :dohh: fortunately I was able to move him without waking him up. Do you guys use bumpers in your LOs' cribs?

He woke up twice and then up for the day at 6:45. After going to sleep around 10.

Thanks, Noelle, I'd be interested to know what you think of what we have been doing. First I feed him (and I really encourage him to eat, so that I know he's not hungry) and put him down awake. If he self-settles, great. If not, the kitchen is closed. The first time we wait about a minute just to make sure he's not calming down. Then one of us goes in (usually DH) and picks him up, walks around or rocks a bit to try to calm him down, then puts him back down awake. This does end up looking different for DH vs. me because DH is actually able to calm him this way whereas I am not. So usually, when I go in, I just stay for a minute or so, and LO cries the whole time, whereas DH sometimes stays for up to five minutes if LO is actually calming down. Do you think that could be too confusing? I mean, both of us are just trying to do what will be the most effective at calming LO -- I would stay in for longer, too, if he would settle for me without nursing. Anyway, so one way or the other we put him down, he starts crying immediately, and we leave him for 3 minutes to see if he'll fall asleep. Repeat.

We do this for all NWs too unless it's been less than two hours since he's eaten, in which case we don't feed first and go straight to the other stuff. There may have been once or twice when he woke up really early and I nursed him again to try to get him to sleep some more. But otherwise the rule is that he gets to nurse once so he's not hungry, then we comfort in other ways.

I know there are some kids who actually cry less with straight CIO because they find the checks/comforting stimulating. I'm just not willing to try CIO though. :nope:

He's been having more separation anxiety during the day so I don't know whether that factors in or how we would work around it.

Stephie, thanks for the suggestion about nursing earlier and earlier before putting down. For a couple months I was letting him nurse to sleep and then waking him when I put him into the crib, and we got stuck there -- he wouldn't let me change it without protesting. So I figured if we were going to have crying anyway, we might as well try something that would give us a little more flexibility.


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## Noelle610

I think you're doing great seaweed! I think I would keep sending daddy in. Sounds like your presence is stimulating, but dad's isn't. I also think I'd encourage longer times between feeds at 7 months old. I'd say two night feeds max, but of course that's up to you.

I can't do CIO either. I'm not against it and have even encouraged other moms to do it, but I'm right there with you.


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## seaweed eater

Thanks :hugs: I feel the same way about CIO. I think it's fine for anyone who is comfortable with it. But it's not for me, at least not right now.

I agree that it's much more effective for DH to help him. DH gives up more easily than I do though, so that's why it ends up being me sometimes. :haha:

Two feeds is definitely our target. That's sustainable for me, and it's how many he has on a good night when all is well. I just want him to be doing a little better with the other comforting techniques before I start using stricter cutoffs.


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## Twister

So just done bedtime. Decided to switch it up a bit, instead of feeding her in her room I fed her downstairs in the living room, she fell asleep but woke as I moved to take her upstairs which was exactly what I wanted. She said goodnight to daddy, I took her upstairs and put her in her sleeping bag and gave her some teething powder and gel. Turned her over, dummy, stroked her head. Took about 10 minutes and she fell asleep with minimal fuss. We'll see how long she stays asleep for.

I'm wondering if there's a link between waking up and being fed to sleep, as when I feed to sleep for naps I've noticed she doesn't tend to sleep as long as opposed to when I manage to settle her in her cot. Earlier I settled her in her cot for nap 2 and she slept for almost an hour (woke screaming, I think her teeth have been bothering her today). So I'm going to try and stop feeding to sleep most of the time (unless its in the middle of the night or she's inconsolable for some reason) and see if I notice any changes.


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## mellyboo

Noelle610 said:


> mellyboo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Noelle610 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> mellyboo said:
> 
> 
> I did 2 naps yesterday, I've really been trying but kind of struggling randomly with it..
> 
> she wanted to go to bed at 530 :S I ended up taking her to my parents house just up the road and she played there for a bit it took her mind off things i came back home for 7pm i put her down to bed she fell asleep as soon as she was layed down in the crib... woke up at 150am and 430am woke up for the day at 730 so all in all she had a good day..
> 
> just struggling with keeping her awake for the 2 naps.
> 
> It's a hard transition, as is the 2-1. You're kind of damned if you do, because you have to guide them through the fussiness, and damned if you don't, because if they get too much daytime sleep it will start to interfere with night sleep when theyr'e ready to transition.Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I totally agree and I think its for the best she has 2 naps because she does sleep better we just need to keep her occupied to cut the fussing down last night she was just cry cry cry because she was tired.. but then she was laughing one minute.. i'm not sure she knew how to deal with her self we need to find idea's on how to keep her occupied to cut the fussing part until she is used to it LOL!..
> 
> Parenthood.... the fun! ahhaClick to expand...
> 
> So fun, right?
> 
> Going outside really helps.Click to expand...

I agree its getting warm outside right now, we took a HUGE walk yesterday :) I usually just walk up to my parents half the time good exercise hehe!


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## seaweed eater

Twister I definitely started noticing that Munchkin would sleep for longer if not fed to sleep. :thumbup: I hope it's a helpful and easy change for you!


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## Noelle610

Twister said:


> So just don't bedtime. Decided to switch it up a bit, instead of feeding her in her room I fed her downstairs in the living room, she fell asleep but woke as I moved to take her upstairs which was exactly what I wanted. She said goodnight to daddy, I took her upstairs and put her in her sleeping bag and gave her some teething powder and gel. Turned her over, dummy, stroked her head. Took about 10 minutes and she fell asleep with minimal fuss. We'll see how long she stays asleep for.
> 
> I'm wondering if there's a link between waking up and being fed to sleep, as when I feed to sleep for naps I've noticed she doesn't tend to sleep as long as opposed to when I manage to settle her in her cot. Earlier I settled her in her cot for nap 2 and she slept for almost an hour (woke screaming, I think her teeth have been bothering her today). So I'm going to try and stop feeding to sleep most of the time (unless its in the middle of the night or she's inconsolable for some reason) and see if I notice any changes.

I think there is a connection. The example Ferber uses is this - If you fall asleep downstairs and your partner carries you upstairs and you awake in your bed, it's a bit disorienting. It's an object permanence thing.


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## polaris

I don't understand how she can sleep so well during the day and so badly at night! She very rarely wakes early from a nap now and they are usually a good two hours, whereas at bedtime she's awake after 45 minutes without fail and then often every hour after that. Why???

Seaweed, yes I definitely need to separate out her totally rubbish sleep at the moment from her normal just fairly rubbish sleep, given that she does have a bad cold and is really quite miserable with it. It's just hard because I'm not feeling 100% myself and now Thomas and OH have come down with it too. I'm also annoyed because OH will get to stay in bed and recover whereas I just had to keep going throughout despite feeling awful and being up all night with Clara. It just feels like so long since I had a break. Like even a morning or afternoon to myself with neither of the kids. 

I think the sleep training you are doing sounds great. I wish I could get OH more involved with the whole process, he tends to just leave everything to me. Also, re bumpers, we have the mesh airflow bumpers. They work pretty well for preventing legs and arms getting trapped but they don't stop her bumping her head off the cot bars (might soften the blow a little bit I guess).

Noelle, I don't think it sounds like she is really ready for one nap. I also think she's very young to be forcing a transition if she's not ready. I'm sure it would be more convenient for the childminder to have them all on the same schedule but I think she needs to respect Charlotte's needs too. Babies need age appropriate naps to regulate stress hormones and arousal levels throughout the day and a well-rested baby will have much better learning ability, attention span, and emotional regulation. Hey, I don't need to tell you this. But I would be talking to the childminder again about it in your situation.

Twister, once Clara's cold is better I am going to really work on breaking the association between feeding and sleep. I've done this before but it keeps creeping back in. Clara doesn't nurse to sleep but she definitely depends on nursing to relax her and get her ready to settle to sleep. Having said that, she doesn't tend to sleep any longer even when I resettle her in other ways when she wakes during the night. :shrug: I just have a baby who nothing really works for though!


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## Tess.ie

I think I'm about ready to become a perminant member of this thread too!!! 
Twister, Seaweed and Polaris I can see similarities between all your LO's and my Chloe :) 
We are using CC at the moment, and trying to change the feed/sleep association. I definitely find that Chloe sleeps longer at night when she doesnt feed to sleep. I have just started feeding her in a chair in her room then reading her a story then into crib, rather than feeding her in my bed with the light off then putting her into her crib. Hopefully it will get better soon, Im getting worn out with the crying to sleep :(


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## Twister

Well she lasted slightly longer before waking up, a whole 30 minutes longer so instead of waking after an hour she woke after an hour and a half. I don't really see how she can be hungry, since she ate a fair amount at dinner and then had a milk feed shortly after, but its the easiest way to settle her right now. She gets so angry/upset when I try anything else. I always hope that the all the feeding she does before bed and shortly after going to bed will help her sleep longer but it never does.

I officially call bull crap on the theory that babies with full tummies sleep longer. I think some will just wake up regardless of whether they're hungry or not.


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## seaweed eater

Welcome Tessie, sorry you have to join us :hugs: I hope things get better for you soon. How long have you been doing the CC?

Polaris :hugs: I'm sorry your son and DH are ill too. I know how crushing it is to see your DH get to take time off and rest when you just have to keep working no matter how tired you feel. The inequality makes it all feel that much worse. Do you have any friends or family who could come in and give you at least an hour to take a nap or something? Well, you probably have already thought through all of that. I'm sorry you are going through this.


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## polaris

Twister, I always hope that too! But it never does. I know Clara definitely isn't waking out of hunger now and actually she often doesn't even want to nurse, I end up almost forcing her to nurse sometimes because I can't get her to settle at all otherwise. 

I have been thinking and talking it over with OH and we are not going to go with the co-sleeping option. After last night it just doesn't seem like such a great idea anymore. So she is back in the cot tonight, she cried for half an hour at bedtime despite me doing everything possible to try to settle her but she actually hasn't woken up yet which is very good for her! 

My plan now is to wait until her cold is better and then maybe set some limits around night feeds and really work on resettling her in other ways apart from feeding.

Welcome Tess - but sorry that you have to be here too!


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## Tess.ie

We have been CC for about a week, since we ditched the dummy. It's so so tough to hear her cry before every sleep :( our project for the next week is to get bedtime back to 7pm, its crept later and timing varies lots, and that has not helped her sleep i don't think. I'm not good with routine, but Chloe seems to need it. Must try harder!


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## Twister

I don't think Jessica is hungry most of the time. But everything else I try makes her hysterical. I mean when she was younger she'd do 6 hours, then have a good feed and do another 3/4 hours before waking for another feed. That was a typical night for her. Oh how I miss those days. I can't believe I thought I was tired back then, it's nothing compared to this! At the stage now where I actually feel quite refreshed after a 3/4 hour block of sleep.


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## Tess.ie

Twister said:


> I don't think Jessica is hungry most of the time. But everything else I try makes her hysterical. I mean when she was younger she'd do 6 hours, then have a good feed and do another 3/4 hours before waking for another feed. That was a typical night for her. Oh how I miss those days. I can't believe I thought I was tired back then, it's nothing compared to this! At the stage now where I actually feel quite refreshed after a 3/4 hour block of sleep.

Oh yes, this exactly!! Its just cruel the way they tease you with great nights then it all goes horribly wrong. The last night before her sleep went haywire about 6 weeks ago she actually slept an 8 (yes eight!!!) hour stretch.


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## seaweed eater

Yeah, I get pretty excited to have 4 hours in a row nowadays. :wacko:

Tessie, I'm a huge fan of routine. I think it just takes a lot of the exhausting work out of it for you, especially when you can't explain what is happening and why. They at least know what to expect and what is expected of them, which doesn't mean that they always like it, but at least it's clear.

Polaris, sounds like a good plan. :hugs:


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## mellyboo

Twister said:


> Well she lasted slightly longer before waking up, a whole 30 minutes longer so instead of waking after an hour she woke after an hour and a half. I don't really see how she can be hungry, since she ate a fair amount at dinner and then had a milk feed shortly after, but its the easiest way to settle her right now. She gets so angry/upset when I try anything else. I always hope that the all the feeding she does before bed and shortly after going to bed will help her sleep longer but it never does.
> 
> I officially call bull crap on the theory that babies with full tummies sleep longer. I think some will just wake up regardless of whether they're hungry or not.


YEP i totally agree with you!!


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## Twister

Oh seriously this is getting ridiculous.

She's been up over an hour now. I fed her, she fell asleep, I put her down. Two minutes later she woke. Since then all hell has broken loose, oh attempted to get her to sleep but instead gave up, laid her on her back and put a light show on for her which did absolutely eff all. I've tried nursing, cuddling, stroking, shhhing, leaving her to cry, teething gel just in case she's in pain. Nothing works. I completely lost it and screamed the house down, I can't do it. I'm so done with this crap. She's snuggled up in my arms now. I feel awful for losing it like that but she wouldn't stop screaming. I'm such a crap mum. LO deserves better.


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## seaweed eater

:hugs: :hugs: Don't think like that, Twister. You are doing a great job. You love your LO and you are trying to do the best thing for her. This is a challenging situation. You are only human!


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## seaweed eater

I can already tell tonight is going to be a bad one over here :nope:

I think it is separation anxiety. What do we do about that?


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## stephie_corin

Twister you are certainly not a bad mum. I've had times when my son is crying before naps and I've actually had to put him on the floor crying and step out of the room to calm down. Sleep deprivation is the worst.

SE, I think separation anxiety is a big one for us too, especially as he falls asleep in my arms for every nap and at night. I can't bear hearing him cry though, so I think any kind of sleep training is a way off for us. Can you leave your night shirt in his cot so your smell is there? Does he have a lovey? We don't have one yet but I'm thinking it might help.

Today was 'The Day' we were going to try and break the feed to sleep association. Just put him down for his first nap and he fed to sleep. I couldn't bear him pulling at my clothes and crying to nurse. I wish I'd done this when he was younger!!! I need more willpower.

Last night was usual rubbish sleep, nothing new to report!


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## stephie_corin

Polaris, we cosleep but don't bed share (except sometimes at 4am!) and we all definitely get a better night sleep when C is in his own bed space but next to me. I think bed sharing works for some but we are too aware of each other, I think. It sounds like you've made a good decision. I hope your LO gets better soon x


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## seaweed eater

I'm sorry last night didn't go well, Stephie. :hugs: As for today, I think it's good that you gave in quickly if you weren't feeling ready to stick it out! Might as well minimize stress for everyone. I don't know if it would have been easier when he was younger -- do you think so? He probably would still have cried. It's important to me that Munchkin is old enough now that I feel we have a good foundation of attachment and trust, and that he understands who we are and what kind of relationship he has with us. I think it would have been really hard for me to let him cry at all when he was tiny. I mean...the fact is that I chose not to do it!

Thanks for your suggestion. LO does have a lovey, but he's not super attached to it yet. He does like to hold it and rub it on his face when he's in his bed, but I think it's more of a generic comfort object than a symbol of my presence, if that makes sense. It's been a while since I slept with it in my shirt -- maybe that would help.

I forgot to note what time we started tonight so I don't know how long it took. It was shorter than last night but not great. Maybe 40 minutes. Crying most of that time. :( Early on we took him outside to decompress for a minute. I know it's not part of the routine, but he was getting really worked up and it just felt like we had to (DH was already talking about giving up), and I figured it was better earlier than later. I tried giving LO a kind of pep talk. I told him that I know this is hard, but because I can't stay in his room all night to be there every time he wakes up, he needs to go to sleep by himself. It is overwhelming now but we will keep practicing and it will get easier. And I love him and wish I could be with him all the time, but we both sleep better if he's in his room and I'm in mine. Of course, I don't think he understood any of it, but I think it calmed ME down a little :haha: and maybe he picked up on that somehow. I think it's something I'll keep doing when I feel a desire to explain things to him.


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## gaiagirl

Seaweed I love the pep talk, I absolutely think speaking calmly about what's happening affects them. Also it kinda seems right to me in my hippy/touchy feely mind to treat our babies as individuals and give them the respect and consideration we would give anyone else we love :) So explaining is awesome.

Well. Over here it's the worst evening ever. Lots of poops, rash, fussing, no sleeping. I really am starting to think its teeth again. Or still. Ugh.


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## gaiagirl

Also Twister - hugs xxx you are doing awesome and clearly care a lot for your lo. Don't let it get you down too much, sometimes it's just outside our control and the more we try to control the more stressful it gets. You haven't done anything wrong, this is what babies do with sleep. They kinda suck at it. Our expectations really don't mesh with theirs!


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## polaris

Twister :hugs: you are definitely not a crap mum. I bet we have all been in that space. I know I certainly have. I actually think I am worse because I end up taking it out on my three year old when Clara won't go to sleep/stop crying which is just beyond unfair. I have had to do so much apologizing to him recently over snapping at him over really silly things that are just getting under my skin because Clara isn't settling and general sleep deprivation. I have snapped at Clara too but at least she doesn't understand although I know obviously she picks up on the tone of voice which is awful. It's just horrible when nothing you do works. That is pretty much the point that we had reached when we did CC with Clara, she was just turning seven months. While I can't say that she is a poster girl for the method (LOL) it did help in that she learned to self settle in the cot and the unbearable nightmare of trying to actually get her to sleep was over (she didn't actually stay asleep but that's another story!). However it was really very difficult and involved a lot of crying and if I'd known in advance how much she would cry and how rubbish her sleep would still be at the end of it... I don't know ... I know I had to do something when I reached that point though because it just wasn't sustainable for me.

Stephie, I agree with seaweed, if you aren't 100% certain about doing it now then it's better to cave quickly rather than going through lots of crying first. I agree that it might not have been any easier when he was younger, some babies can self-settle from a young age and some just can't, I don't think it's anything the parents are doing differently. Usually you get into habits like feeding to sleep/rocking/etc. because that's what your baby needs. If they just lay peacefully in the cot and drifted off then that's what you would do. Anyway it doesn't necessarily mean they will keep self-settling. Clara was a fantastic self-settler up until four months old and never fed to sleep as a newborn. I was so sure that she was going to sleep through the night at a young age. Ha!

Seaweed, sorry you had another long bedtime last night. It's so hard to stick with it when things seem to be going backwards and if you are like me, you start questioning whether it is the right thing to do at all. I worried so much that Clara was going through separation anxiety this past month too. I think that is possibly part of the reason why CC didn't really "stick" for us because I really felt that I needed to be there for her and reassure her and feed her if she wanted it. I don't know. She doesn't show signs of separation anxiety during the day though so I do wonder if maybe it was me who had the separation anxiety rather than her! Does your LO have separation anxiety during the day? 

What I have started doing with Clara's lovey (she has a little lamb) is bringing it in as part of the bedtime and naptime routine. Playing a little game with it, getting it "talk" to her, stroking her face and hair with it, and she is also squeezing it as she nurses. I'm hoping this will help her to become a bit more attached to it.

Anyway, as for me, we had an amazing night last night!! There is hope!!! Clara slept from 7.30 right through until almost 1 a.m. (she did stir twice but resettled within ten minutes of moaning, not crying), I fed her at 1 a.m. and she took a good feed and went back to sleep straight away and I didn't hear a peep from her until 6.40 a.m.!!! I'm sure it's just a random good night and she'll be back to normal tomorrow. But it does give me hope that things WILL eventually get better!


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## polaris

Gaiagirl, we posted at the same time. :hugs: Sorry you had a rubbish evening too. Teeth are a killer.


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## Twister

Thanks for the kind words everyoneI'm beyond tired today, so nice to hear im not the only one who's lost the plot before (and not for the first time sadly). Still feel awful though for not having enough patience to deal with her and I hope she forgives me.

But after LO finally went to sleep at 2am she slept till 5:30 and then again till 7:30 which is really good tbh. I'm now wondering if it would have been the same if she hadn't have had her meltdown last night. Guess we'll never know.

Polaris, I'm open to the idea of cc but I don't think either of us are ready yet going by the times I have left her to cry for an amount of time. I don't think I have the strength to be consistent with it and LO would probably cry until the cows came home at this stage.


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## stephie_corin

I'd be happy to rock him or do whatever else needed to be done to help him sleep, I just think when he was younger his sleep and feed patterns were more malleable and I could have rocked him only instead of rocking, feeding, bouncing on my exercise ball ten times, feeding again malarkey we do to try and get a nap ;)

I'm under a lot of pressure from my DH to 'fix' Cully's sleep. He wants me to try formula but I've worked so hard at breastfeeding and I think formula fed babies can have the same sleep problems. He thinks a top up of formula at night will help him sleep through. I'm not convinced as my supply is great.


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## stephie_corin

Polaris that's a great approach with the lovey! I am going to start today.

Glad you and twister had good nights xxx


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## polaris

stephie_corin said:


> I'd be happy to rock him or do whatever else needed to be done to help him sleep, I just think when he was younger his sleep and feed patterns were more malleable and I could have rocked him only instead of rocking, feeding, bouncing on my exercise ball ten times, feeding again malarkey we do to try and get a nap ;)
> 
> I'm under a lot of pressure from my DH to 'fix' Cully's sleep. He wants me to try formula but I've worked so hard at breastfeeding and I think formula fed babies can have the same sleep problems. He thinks a top up of formula at night will help him sleep through. I'm not convinced as my supply is great.

So far as I know there is no real evidence that switching to formula will "fix" a baby's sleep. I think formula fed babies do tend to sleep better though on average but I wonder if it's because parents are forced into alternative methods of soothing rather than just feeding to sleep which is the easy fall back if you are breastfeeding. I wouldn't bother trying formula if you think you will regret it if it doesn't work. How is it going to help if you have a good supply? More likely to just upset his tummy and cause him to wake up more often if you ask me.


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## Noelle610

Hey girls. :hugs: to those who had bad nights!

Polaris, yay! That sounds heavenly. I totally agree with you about formula fed babies tending to be better sleepers because parents have to rely on alternative soothing methods. That makes so much sense.

Twister, please, please don't be so hard on yourself. You're not a bad mom, you're a normal mom! We all have those moments. Exhaustion really tries your patience as well. If you do decide to go the CC route, just have an open mind. A lot of moms I've talked to in the process of this sleeping coaching certification feel as you do - it won't work and their child will just cry forever. That rarely happens and they're often surprised!


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## Twister

Thank you.

I'm going to give her more time I think first before trying cc. Maybe a month or two, once we've both gotten through this nap transition and she's used to the new routine. Got to give her a fair chance, right? Maybe by then I'll feel more ready too iykwim.

She had a good nap this morning, slept for almost 1.5 hours:) had a little cry for 5 seconds after 40 minutes, but when I went up she was fast asleep.


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## mrsbeano

Twister said:


> Oh seriously this is getting ridiculous.
> 
> She's been up over an hour now. I fed her, she fell asleep, I put her down. Two minutes later she woke. Since then all hell has broken loose, oh attempted to get her to sleep but instead gave up, laid her on her back and put a light show on for her which did absolutely eff all. I've tried nursing, cuddling, stroking, shhhing, leaving her to cry, teething gel just in case she's in pain. Nothing works. I completely lost it and screamed the house down, I can't do it. I'm so done with this crap. She's snuggled up in my arms now. I feel awful for losing it like that but she wouldn't stop screaming. I'm such a crap mum. LO deserves better.

:hugs: We have all been there and it is just awful. I was once reduced to tears in boots by my screaming 6 month old. He cried so much one day, he lost his voice. It turned out he was teething but I was just a state by the time that the damn tooth popped through. 

I now just tell myself its a phase. So at the moment we are in a good phase but when the next one hits I don't get so depressed by the bad phase. 

When I was posting on this thread a lot there were quite a few babies who were a month older than mine so at about 7-7.5 months there was a general improvement in the sleep and I was pretty jealous! But, lo and behold Quinn also improved but the depths of crap sleep that were around at 6 months. 

Do work on the feed to sleep association and for what its worth, when I stopped offering milk at night, he did stop waking for it but it was quite scary to stop feeding at night. I think sometimes you feel better if you feel as though you're trying to do something about it rather than just riding it out. 

Hope you get a night off soon so you can try and catch up x


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## stephie_corin

I think C has been reading this thread.. Today he has had two naps, despite my best efforts to get him down. 2 naps of 30 minutes each! Tonight will either be the best or worst sleep of his life. On a positive note, he fed twice at times other than nap times. It's the first time in months I've got him to feed when he hasn't been half asleep! Yay! Sending everyone lots of good luck for tonight xxx


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## Noelle610

Good plan Twister. If she's in a good routine and well rested it will be easier anyway. It's extremely difficult to sleep train an overtired baby. 

And totally agree with MrsBeano! Lots of improvment around 7 months.


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## gaiagirl

Noelle610 said:


> Good plan Twister. If she's in a good routine and well rested it will be easier anyway. It's extremely difficult to sleep train an overtired baby.
> 
> And totally agree with MrsBeano! Lots of improvment around 7 months.

I can ONLY hope! With my luck my kid will be the one exception haha.


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## aliss

Yup another one here to say that sleep at 6 months is complete crap. Don't worry, just keep on trucking and 7 months will be better.


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## mellyboo

She's 7 months tomorrow but born a couple weeks early, hoping it gets better .. Last night was bad bad bad .. Up 8 times might be developmental though for her .... Hoping!


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## Noelle610

:hugs: melly!


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## Twister

Hope tonight is better for you mellyboo.

Jessica's been great for her naps today. Her morning one was 90 minutes and her afternoon one lasted 1hour 45 minutes! Its meant i've been able to have some proper "me" time as well (sacked the housework for today) so im feeling much better about the challenges I may have to face tonight now. I've just put her to bed (its 7:15pm) and she went down with minimal fuss. Made a point of being extra vigilant of the time today to try and prevent her from getting overtired. I think at the moment her awake times usually last between 2.5-3 hours otherwise she gets overtired. So far, so good. Don't want to speak too soon though!


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## Boo44

Twister that sounds amazing! Well done Jessica :) Fingers crossed tonight is good x

Well, Mr Jack has finally started crawling yesterday! And tomorrow we go abroad on holiday :) If ever there was a recipe for a sleep regression this is it! Lol (I don't care we'll just have to deal when we get home!)


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## polaris

Mellyboo, so sorry you had such an awful night. :hugs:

Boo - LOL at the recipe for sleep regression - at least you are getting both out of the way at once though - hope you have a lovely holiday - are you going anywhere nice?

Twister - that sounds like a great day of napping, fingers crossed for a good night tonight. I remember when Clara started napping well, it was just such a relief! Although I have never been able to understand how she can sleep really well for naps and then just wake up constantly all night. :shrug: There was a stage where I was putting her down every night thinking "tonight she'll sleep well, everything's gone perfect today, she's not overtired, she had the right amount of naps, there's no reason for her to wake up a million times tonight". But it was always just wishful thinking apparently! I think you are right to hold off on CC until she is better rested, I think part of the reason it was such a nightmare with Clara was because she was chronically overtired. And hopefully you won't end up needing to use it at all.

Stephie - ugh, I really hate those 30 minute naps. Hope he sleeps well tonight to compensate.

Seaweed - hope bedtime is going well this evening.

Aliss - sorry to see that Philippe isn't sleeping well at the moment but you are right it is just a dreadful age for sleep.

We have had a great day, two 2 hour naps (I had to wake her up from both of them) and bed at 7.30 with only about a minute of fussing. Keeping everything crossed for another good night tonight!


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## Twister

She just woke after less than an hour but she seems genuinely hungry. Tried to feed her before bed but she didn't seem overly interested and because I'm feeding her downstairs where there's noise there are distractions and she kept pulling off. I knew she wasn't hungry because when she's genuinely hungry there's no stopping her and no amount of noise or action distracts her! She's having a good old feed now though.

Hope everyone has a good night tonight!


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## mellyboo

I'm hoping too! We have a babysitter that she doesn't no ( my moms friend) we have a wedding to tonight I'm hoping she does okay it's a 30 min drive .. So if she freaks it will be a little while till I can get home ... Little nervous I'm making her come over before bedtime so she can get comfortable with her first .. Jordyns a pretty social baby I'm sure she will be fine :) ..lucky for me oh got up with her last night but I woke up everytime .. His mood has been grouchy today ... Lmao. Can't blame him tho it's hard getting up that many times tonight we will take turns lol


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## Boo44

Thanks Polaris! We're going to Majorca so no major time zone difference and hopefully lots of sunshine :)

Funny how times change that I would consider the time difference before the weather!


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## Noelle610

Have fun Boo! And yay for crawling!


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## seaweed eater

:hugs: all around to the mamas of 6 month olds. That does seem to be the time a lot of us join this thread :haha:

Melly, I really hope tonight is better! :hugs:

Twister, YAY for amazing naps! :yipee: I hope tonight is going well so far after the second feed.

Have fun on vacation, Boo! I was just wondering how you and Jack and all his teeth were doing. :p Hope you have a wonderful and restful time!

Noelle, I didn't know you were doing a sleep coaching certification :thumbup: great fit for you, obviously!

Polaris, I'm so glad to hear about the good night!!! :happydance: :happydance: I really hope it turns out not to be a fluke. It's your turn for some good sleep.

Munchkin does have separation anxiety during the day. He gets upset when I leave the room, or when I'm in the room but not holding him. Just this week he has started crying when I say goodbye at daycare, so I think it's still on the increase and maybe could have just started affecting his sleep.


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## Boo44

Noelle are you really? That's amazing! I think you give fab advice and I think you'll be excellent at that! In fact I'll give you a reference if needed haha x


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## seaweed eater

22 mins of crying so far. I think it would be easier for me to get through this if I had a specific day in mind when we will definitely want to change course if it's still bad. As much as nursing to sleep wasn't working for us, and as much as I believe that this is a gentle technique that he should be developmentally able to adjust to, I don't want to ignore evidence that it's not working.

Let's say next Tuesday, since things started getting worse again on Wednesday. If Mon and Tues average more than 6 minutes of crying AND I feel like things aren't moving forward, then we make a change. That'll be a week since things got worse again and 2 1/2 weeks since we stopped nursing to sleep. Does that sound reasonable?

Hope bedtime is going/went well for everyone else. :hugs:


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## gaiagirl

I think so Seaweed! You definitely know best and if on Tuesday that's what feel right, I would trust yourself :)

But then here I am, lying in my bed nursing my baby to sleep for the second time in an hour...lol. So I may not be in the position to give advice!


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## Twister

The night was going pretty well until now. She woke every 3-3.5 hours which is good for her, last wake up being 3am and she went backdown like a dream. It's 4:45 now and it's proving difficult to settle her but I'm remaining calm this time. Just not sure why she won't settle as easy, what's changed in the last 1.5 hours:wacko:


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## stephie_corin

We had some slight improvements! Lat night he had 4 wakeups, the worst at 2am as it took me over an hour to settle him, but I definitely think he slept better after his two 30 minute naps yesterday. I'm going to aim for two naps again, with his lovey, and hope we see more improvements tonight.

For those that have a lovey, what is it? I'm just using a blue rabbit head attached to a small satin blanket. It sounds bizarre but its not that strange :) would a teddy bear be better?

And what if you lose the lovey? Should I get more than one?

How was everyone's night?


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## seaweed eater

Glad 2 naps was better for him, Stephie! :thumbup: LO's lovey is just a little blankie with satin on one side and a kind of velvety fabric on the other. DH calls it his "napkin." :haha: I don't think it matters what it is as long as it's cuddly (and small enough to be safe).


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## stephie_corin

Thanks SE! How is bedtime going?


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## polaris

Hi everyone!

We had another good night! She is actually asleep now but I'm wide awake after more uninterrupted sleep than I've had in 8 months! She went to bed at 7.30, woke at about 11.30 and had a feed, then slept right through without a peep until 5.30. I fed her again to try to get her back to sleep quickly and she went right back off. I honestly don't know what's changed. It's like magic! Really hoping this is the start of a new pattern!


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## stephie_corin

Polaris, awesome news :) I'm really happy for you!


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## polaris

Seaweed, that definitely sounds reasonable to give it until Tuesday and then reassess the situation. I do think it's best to stick with what you are doing until your Tuesday deadline though. Hopefully things will turn a corner over the weekend. I do think separation anxiety must make it harder to do any sort of sleep training, it's hard enough at the best of times. :hugs:

Stephie, glad you had a better night. To answer your question about loveys, Clara has a little cuddly lamb but Thomas had one of those blankets with a head on it. I don't think it matters what it is really as long as it is soft and cuddly and feels nice when you stroke it or rub it against your face.

Twister - yay for a better night for you too! I think it does get harder for them to resettle as the night progresses because they've already had the bulk of their night's sleep so they are not as tired as they were at the start of the night. I definitely (used to) find myself that it's much easier to go back to sleep during the first half of the night whereas if I'm woken up after 5ish I find it much harder to get back to sleep (back when I used to get a full night's sleep that is, LOL).

Hope everyone else had restful nights.


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## NotNic

Boo have a lovely holiday. You might find he sleeps better now he's crawling. F's nights got better after he learnt as he was more worn out.

F sleeps better but his wake ups are getting earlier. I went to the office yesterday ahead of returning in 2 weeks and I set my alarm for 5.45 so I could shower and get ready in relative peace. The whatsit woke up at 5am. I was exhausted by 9pm last night. Today he woke at 5am again. :wacko: I don't think its the light as I've been teaching him to nap and go to sleep when the room isn't dark, which has gone quite well. I'm hoping nursery wears him out and he starts sleeping 6.30/7am instead.


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## polaris

NotNic said:


> Boo have a lovely holiday. You might find he sleeps better now he's crawling. F's nights got better after he learnt as he was more worn out.
> 
> F sleeps better but his wake ups are getting earlier. I went to the office yesterday ahead of returning in 2 weeks and I set my alarm for 5.45 so I could shower and get ready in relative peace. The whatsit woke up at 5am. I was exhausted by 9pm last night. Today he woke at 5am again. :wacko: I don't think its the light as I've been teaching him to nap and go to sleep when the room isn't dark, which has gone quite well. I'm hoping nursery wears him outand he starts sleeping 6.30/7am instead.

Notnic, it could still be the light even though he is able to nap when it isn't dark. My older boy was very sensitive to light in the mornings, even a chink of light would wake him, but during the day he was fine although he did still like the room reasonably dark. I think it's the change in light that wakes them in the mornings. I think most babies do need black out blinds during the summer months to try and keep them asleep until a reasonable hour - you could always try hanging a heavy blanket/towel at the window just to see if it makes a difference.


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## VikkiD

Hope everyone's well little update Daniel is now sleeping alot better and for the first time in god knows how long I have not been in to him for the past 3 nights he goes 7pm till 6 I hear him shuffling around at times but he settles himself. Long may it continue just need to work on me sttn now lol


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## NotNic

Thanks Polaris. We do have a blackout blind but its not amazing. I will give the blanket trick a try. He is bright eyed and full of it first thing in the morning. I do wonder if he is naturally an early bird though. He has a lot of personality traits similar to my sister and she would wake between 4 and 5 as a child. As an adult she's still up before 7am every day even with a hangover! Come to think about it, my parents are early birds too. I'm doomed!


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## Noelle610

Yay Vikki! We love success stories :)

Notnic, I agree with Polaris. Different parts of the brain are responsible for day and night sleep, so it could be the light :) Give the towels a try!

It's interesting that so many are struggling with early morning wakings. It seems like it's such a common problem. It's funny that no one comes on here to say, "My baby sleeps in too late"! LOL


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## Twister

I miss the newborn days when my LO would sleep all morning. Granted she was usually up till 2am but at least I got a lie in:rofl:


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## mellyboo

seaweed eater said:


> :hugs: all around to the mamas of 6 month olds. That does seem to be the time a lot of us join this thread :haha:
> 
> Melly, I really hope tonight is better! :hugs:
> 
> Twister, YAY for amazing naps! :yipee: I hope tonight is going well so far after the second feed.
> 
> Have fun on vacation, Boo! I was just wondering how you and Jack and all his teeth were doing. :p Hope you have a wonderful and restful time!
> 
> Noelle, I didn't know you were doing a sleep coaching certification :thumbup: great fit for you, obviously!
> 
> Polaris, I'm so glad to hear about the good night!!! :happydance: :happydance: I really hope it turns out not to be a fluke. It's your turn for some good sleep.
> 
> Munchkin does have separation anxiety during the day. He gets upset when I leave the room, or when I'm in the room but not holding him. Just this week he has started crying when I say goodbye at daycare, so I think it's still on the increase and maybe could have just started affecting his sleep.

Hope everyone had good nights ;) jordyn did well for the babysitter she didn't wake up at all we got back around 12 she woke up at 1 to eat and then woke up at 630 for the day which is early for her but only woke up once .. So ours was good except we were out till midnight so we got ripped off on sleep .. It's like you have to choose your life when you have a bad sleeper do I want possible good sleep tonight or do we risk and go out we won't sleeper proper anyway hmmm ...


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## seaweed eater

Polaris! Sooo happy to read this!!! :happydance: Long may it continue!

Thanks Stephie, he was asleep about 10 minutes after I posted. So, not great but still getting better. Hopefully that trend will continue.

Melly, I'm glad J did well for the sitter, but I totally know what you mean about having to put everything else on hold while you prioritize sleep. :hugs: Sometimes I think parenting would just be a whole different thing if I had a baby I could count on to sleep a solid 12 hours every night, and I could still do normal things in the evening.

Our night was ok, he was up at 11:30 -- first time in a couple weeks he's been up before 1, I think. I fed him anyway. Then he slept until 3, then up just before 6. So, a little short at just 10 hours, but not bad at all.

However, he has gotten into a very consistent habit of sticking his feet out of the crib. This morning when I put him down for a nap he immediately rolled onto his side and stuck out both feet. At bedtime when he finally falls asleep I've been finding him with his leg out up to the thigh! :dohh: I don't want to deny him a means of self-soothing, but it seems dangerous. I think it's time to get a bumper!


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## Twister

Well tonight has been a load of crap. She's already been up 4 times and its only half past midnight. Naps have been rubbish today also.

Why is it we tend to have one good day (by her standards) followed by an absolutely rubbish day the next? What am I doing wrong?? It seems like whenever we go out during the day it messes everything up, either by her falling asleep in the car on the way back or her not sleeping at all but surely we can't just stay in forever? This Is so frustrating. I never wanted to become too hung up on a routine, but it seems like my LO needs it and she doesn't seem to be very flexible otherwise it all goes to crap. I do try and plan things around her naps but it always seems to get spoiled usually by her only cat napping for half an hour instead of 1 hour+ in the morning before we go out. The time when I need her to nap properly the most so she's not whiney whilst out:dohh: Then by the time we get her home she's over tired so it will be yet another cat nap followed by a rubbish night.


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## mellyboo

Awe twister hugs ... Jordyns the same way accept wont sleep
While we are out... But one night is good the next you wanna cry ... Oh went and put her to bed at 630 real frigging awesome its 103o and she is acting like
She's up for the day FFs ....I'm so tired I want to cry I feel
Like its never getting better at this point I've given up


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## seaweed eater

I'm sorry Twister :hugs: I know what you mean about feeling stuck at home. I try to remind myself of what happened for us with bedtime, which was that I really made it top priority for about a week or two and then after that it got a little more flexible without throwing everything off. I think investing in the routine until it is well established really pays off. She will become more flexible once she is used to the routine. But it's hard when that takes a long time. :hugs:

Bedtime was weird today but I knew it would be. We had family portraits done today so unfortunately we had to wake LO in the middle of his afternoon nap (1:45). He refused a catnap afterward so he ended up asleep about an hour early, exhausted. Then, predictably, he woke up crying after 45 mins and was tough to resettle. Asleep again now, knock on wood. I wonder how the early bedtime will affect when he wakes up tomorrow morning.


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## seaweed eater

:hugs: :hugs: to you Melly! It's frustrating when you are trying to establish a routine and not everyone is on the same page. I hope she goes back down soon.


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## Twister

Thanks girls, spending a couple of weeks at home sounds like a great idea, it's just weekends are hard as we always seem to have something on.


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## mellyboo

It's like 11 20pm here I haven't even took her out of her crib tho I refuse she's staying in there I tried feeding her she doesn't want a bottle ... She's not crying she's just being hyper in her crib (watching her on the video mointor) .. I feel like some times I'm the only person in my area with a baby who hates sleep.


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## Twister

Sometimes I really do feel like just doing flat out CIO because I get so frustrated but I'd feel so mean like I was neglecting her or something. I hate hearing her get upset. If it was just whiney crying I'd probably be ok but it's loud proper crying which is horrible to listen to.

I hate when people ask if she sttn because it makes me feel like I'm doing something wrong, like they expect that she should be by now so I just answer with "she's getting there". If I say no I usually get a barrage of unwanted advice anyway.


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## seaweed eater

I hate the inevitable STTN advice. I guess they mean well but it feels like sooooo much pressure to CC/CIO. It's insane.

Twister, I don't think you should do it if it would make you feel mean. The only reason I've remotely survived this whole experience is that I really truly feel that we are using a gentle enough method that LO is ready to cope with it. And yet I still panic when I hear him cry.
But if you are not committed to CIO, is there a gentler method you would consider? It's not CIO or nothing. For a while I thought it didn't matter to me because as long as he was crying I was opposed to it, but in the end it mattered a lot. This is not meant as advice or pressure BTW, just asking <3


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## Twister

I guess I would be open to them I just worry about having the patience to stick with them iykwim?

She woke 20mins after her 3:30wake up and I did actually leave her to cry as I knew that time there was nothing wrong with her and she stopped after about 5 minutes. I think it was easier because I was half asleep though.:wacko:


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## stephie_corin

Twister we are also stuck at home for naps... And nursing.... I feel like I'm constantly watching the clock and having to excuse myself to rush home for a feed or a sleep as C will do neither when we are out and about. Friends with kids think I am mad but I worry constantly about him getting enough milk and sleep. Usually I am rushing home to fight for half an hour for him to nurse then nap... For half an hour!

I honestly thought we would be rushing around socialising and my little sidekick would sleep peacefully in his stroller or carrier... The reality is very different! Once we had guests here from overseas and we went out for lunch over his nap/feed time. He was about four months old and didn't feed or sleep for 6 hours no matter how much I tried!

Its tough but soon enough they will be little toddlers running around and won't need us anywhere near as much.

Big hugs to you.

We had a pretty average night. 5+ wake ups between 11-530 am.

Hoping for a better night tonight. We are continuing on our two nap schedule but he only had three milk feeds yesterday in the day. I think thats a subject for another post though! Lol! X


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## polaris

We had another pretty good night! Only one feed at about 1.30ish, I did have to go in to her a couple of times but I didn't have to take her out of the cot, she just resettled really quickly when she heard my voice which was a bit miraculous to be honest!! Up until now going in to her has usually intensified the crying as she expects to be picked up and nursed!

Twister, we were always stuck at home for naps for my older boy. I really hoped things would be different this time and I really really tried to get Clara to nap on the go in the pram or in the sling. It just wasn't happening and that was one of the reasons she got so overtired I think, she will only ever nap for about 15 to 20 minutes when we are out and about, she doesn't get cranky when she's tired but it's obviously not enough sleep for her because when we are at home she naps for two hours. It's hard with a toddler too because obviously he needs to get out and about but I'm lucky that OH is at home some days so he can stay with Clara for her morning nap while I get out with Thomas. Also having everything ready and literally walking out the door as soon as I get her up from her nap. But we are stuck at home a lot at the moment. I just remind myself that it's not forever but it is frustrating. DS never really became more flexible with his routine to be honest (but he wasn't a very flexible baby), I just got very used to working around it. It does get much easier when they drop to one nap.


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## Twister

Glad I'm not alone on that one. It seems everyone else is always out and about with their little ones.


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## Noelle610

Twister, I totally sympathize. I always felt like I was doing something wrong too!

In terms of CC/CIO, some kids just do better with straight CIO. These are the babies that find their parents presence stimulating. It also tends to work faster and it's easier to be consistent with. If you decide to go that route, I think it's fine - I'm don't think it would cause Jessica to feel abandoned.


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## mellyboo

Oh twister... I'm ready to go flat out cry it out seriously

She's not hungry half the time i offer she refuse's she thinks it's play time, she is soooo excited to see either OH and I walk in the room she is pretty near shaking out of her crib.

Last night i almost got the point of "Your just going to have to cry"... she finally fell asleep around 12 20 and woke up 4 times until 730 when she was up for the day.

what a frigging night.. argh.

Me and OH are letting each other catch up on sleep this morning then will go for a family drive nice part is ( she wont sleep in the car anymore anyway) it's rare... and its going to be hot out here today.


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## Noelle610

Melly, I think CIO would work for you. Sounds like she's very stimulated by you and your OH's presence. If you can commit to it for even just 3 days, I think you'll see results.

If anyone is interested in trying CIO, definitely PM megangrohl - she had a terrible, awful time with sleep and did CIO. I think it only took her one night and her LO started STTN, 12 hours, every night.


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## Twister

Thanks Noelle, I think it's definitely something I would consider in a month or two if things haven't improved (or maybe even now? I don't know). Like I said last night on one occasion she woke 20minute after I'd spent 45 minutes getting her to sleep. So (and this is going to sound awful:() I turned the volume on the monitor down and let her CIO. It must have been about 5 minutes and she stopped and went to sleep. I felt horrible but I'd had enough and I knew she wasn't hungry etc.

Actually getting her to sleep is fine, don't normally have any problems there, it's the frequent night wakings which are the problem.


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## bananaz

Twister, that doesn't sound awful at all. If she only cried for 5 minutes she clearly wasn't very upset. I think you did the right thing.


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## mellyboo

I think you did the right thing too! Dont feel bad :) and noelle I think you might be right!


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## Twister

Sooo she woke 50mins after bedtime. I left her to cry for a couple of minutes but I couldn't last much longer than that as she was getting more and more worked up. But when I went up all I had to to was put her dummy back in and she was asleep again. Usually when I go up straight away and put her dummy in she won't have it and will need to be nursed to sleep:shrug:


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## seaweed eater

Twister, 5 minutes is so short it could still be CC, not CIO :p I think you did fine, clearly you thought she would be able to handle it and she did!

5 am waking for LO today. DH put him down for a super early nap so his second nap ended up being only a little later than his first one usually is. And of course he'll have a third one in a little while. My hope is that if he can at least go to bed at a normal time tonight, we can get back on track with the naps. I hope it doesn't backfire and leave us with a broken off last sleep cycle...


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## Tess.ie

seaweed eater said:


> Twister, 5 minutes is so short it could still be CC, not CIO :p I think you did fine, clearly you thought she would be able to handle it and she did!

I second this :)
I hope everyone has a good night tonight...it has to be better than last night for us anyway, we were awake every hour after midnight. Tonight she has already woken for a feed, oh how I long for 4 straight hours. She does go back to sleep so easily, but I just wish she would stop waking in the first place!!


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## mellyboo

I think the uk time and where I live in canada is a huge difference.. I'm curious I'm looking it up right now!


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## bananaz

So we are in a rough patch here :( I've been trying to move her nap later so that she wouldn't be awake for so long before bed but she gets soooo tired by 10-11am and often ends up falling asleep nursing, which she hasn't done in ages. Then her nap gets pushed really late and the whole schedule is thrown off.

She's also been fighting being put to bed. She throws all of her toys out of the crib and cries hysterically until I go in, wrestle her down and pat her back. I don't know if I should keep doing this or if I'm just making the problem worse by giving in instead of trying to get her to self-settle.

On top of that, her early morning wakings are worse than ever. Last night I had a friend in town so I stayed out late for the first time in months. Of course LO decided to get up for the day at 4 this morning! I couldn't believe it :nope:


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## stephie_corin

Oh bananaz! I thought our 530am wake ups were bad. You poor thing.

We had a beyond terrible night, even by Cs standards. I can't believe we have got to the point where 4 wake ups between 11-530 is a good night.

He did not sleep more than 30-45 minutes last night and from 4 am I could not put him down. I feel so exhausted I could cry. I think I did cry over my cereal but I'm too tired to remember!

We have been doing two naps for a few days and he coped fine with the awake times but dropped to three milk feeds in the day!! (he only nurses at nap time and bedbtime) so I did three naps again (or really pushed three day feeds and a bedtime feed and he fell asleep after each feed... Lol) so I wonder if the change in routine has thrown him.

Teething... Working on motor skills.... Routine.... I know he is going through a tough time but surely he needs more sleep than this! He only catnaps in the day too.

Sorry, just ranting!!


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## Radkat

Stephie, I feel like we're in the same place. My LO had her worst night in a long time. She was probably up 15+ times last night. She needed to be walked to calm down 3-4 times which she hasn't needed in a long time. I still ony fed her twice. She just figured out how to stand up in her cosleeper so she kept standing up whenever she woke up. I don't think she's teething now but I'm not sure. Tonight isn't looking good either as she's already been uo twice since I put her down an hour ago. She settled with shush and pat. Ugh.


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## stephie_corin

Radkat I'm so sorry you are going through this too. How old is your LO? The lack of sleep is so debilitating!


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## polaris

bananaz said:


> So we are in a rough patch here :( I've been trying to move her nap later so that she wouldn't be awake for so long before bed but she gets soooo tired by 10-11am and often ends up falling asleep nursing, which she hasn't done in ages. Then her nap gets pushed really late and the whole schedule is thrown off.
> 
> She's also been fighting being put to bed. She throws all of her toys out of the crib and cries hysterically until I go in, wrestle her down and pat her back. I don't know if I should keep doing this or if I'm just making the problem worse by giving in instead of trying to get her to self-settle.
> 
> On top of that, her early morning wakings are worse than ever. Last night I had a friend in town so I stayed out late for the first time in months. Of course LO decided to get up for the day at 4 this morning! I couldn't believe it :nope:

Bananaz, I could be wrong but it sounds to me like she is overtired. Could you try an earlier bedtime or even going back to two naps for a week or so just to get her a bit better rested? My oldest boy is dropping his final nap and he is definitely ready to drop it but after a bit the tiredness just catches up with him and he needs to nap for a few days or else he gets overtired. I wonder if this is what has happened with your LO - i.e. they are ready to drop the nap in many respects but over time they gradually accumulate a sleep debt and become overtired, which has a knock on effect on their overall sleep quality and so the problem just becomes exacerbated.


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## polaris

Another good night last night! She woke after 45 minutes and I ended up feeding her again to resettle her because I was going out for the evening and just needed her to go to sleep now!! So I wasn't hopeful about the rest of the night. But she slept solidly until 11, woke up but OH went in and gave her a quick cuddle and she went straight back off and didn't wake until 4.30!! Had a feed and back to sleep until 6.40 a.m. I honestly cannot believe the difference in her sleep in such a short space of time! I'm sure she is going to have plenty of setbacks (this is Clara we are talking about after all) but I just feel so much more hopeful now. 

Stephie and Radcat - :hugs: - so sorry you both had such dreadful nights.


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## NotNic

Bananaz we have gone back to mostly two naps. Sometimes he just wants one long nap, so we try to make bedtime slightly earlier. On those days I bring dinner forward by 20mins or so and just start the bed routine a bit earlier. He has started to want to nap earlier and tbh I go back to work next work and have loads to do, so I haven't been strict with him. I'd rather have a decent 2hrs to get stuff done.

On the early start, we now get OH to go in to him if he wakes before 5.30. He's much more successful at getting him back to sleep. If I go in Finlay thinks the day has started and cries if I leave the room.


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## Twister

:hugs: sorry you ladies had such bad nights.

I feel bad posting this now because my lo actually had her best night in a long long time. After her wake up shortly after bed she slept till 11:30, then till 3:30 and she's just woken up for the day at 7:15.

I don't know what caused her to have such a good night, whether its to do with me leaving her to cry the other night or me not going to her straight away when she woke the first time. Her naps were terrible yesterday:shrug:


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## Tess.ie

Twister and Polaris, thats good to hear your nights were better...Theres hope for us yet!! :)

Chloe is doing ok with naps, and with going off to sleep at night but she just keeps waking overnight. 
Last night she went to sleep 7.15ish, woke at 9.20 and wouldn't settle without a feed (oh went in first and she was not happy, although he went in and stayed not reassured and left like i would have tried) but fed well and went straight back to sleep. 12 she woke again and fed (although not hugely hungry), again at 1.30 but then i reassured her and waited and she cried for a few mins and went back to sleep without feeding. 3.30 woke (I didnt realise we had been asleep again and tried to leave her again, but then looked at the clock and realised it was 2 hours later!!) and fed well. 5.30 woke and lazy me brought her into our bed where she had 2 sucks then fell asleep, then woke on and off till 7 when she woke properly for the day and had a feed.
That was better than the night before when she woke every hour after midnight!!
Its just so hard trying to judge whether she's hungry or not during the night when she wakes. As soon as I latch her on I can tell, but by then shes up out of bed. Any tips??


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## Noelle610

Tessie, how many night feeds is she having regularly?

Bananaz, I agree with Polaris. I would just be flexible about naps. We have some two nap days right now and other one nap days depending on wake-up time. Honestly, I'm big into routine but I feel like this "two naps is too much, one nap is not enough" phase is just tough and you have to go with the flow. Charlotte went through that bedtime antics phase and I posted about it on the Toddler forum. I got some really good advice about minimizing the time between last nap and bedtime (slightly earlier bedtime) and it actually worked very, very well.

:hugs: to those with bad nights. Also happy to see some good nights in here!


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## mellyboo

We had A amazing night thank goodness we really needed it and I needed he sleep .. I kept her up till 8 to see what it would do well she woke up at 3am And 6 and up for the day at 740 :) yay! I went to bed when she did last night and when she woke up at 3 only for 5 mins even I couldn't get back to sleep I was like ok now, now I can't sttn!!! Ahaha .. I feel like a new person today yay!!


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## Tess.ie

Noelle610 said:


> Tessie, how many night feeds is she having regularly?

Well we were down to 2 for a while there, the first was anytime between 10.30-1am ish, and the second was between 4.30-5.30ish.
But at that time she was also going to sleep between 6 and 7, and waking round 6.30. Somehow lately her bedtime has crept back (the light long evenings dont help) and she isnt having such a big feed before she goes off to sleep. 

The night feeding times now have no pattern, Sat night she hardly fed before bed but slept till 11 and had a big feed then. Last night she woke and fed well after 9 and again 12ish. 4.30 is normally a hungry time too.
I would like to put time limits on night feeds, but what if she really is hungry and wakes and wont settle and I eventually have to pick her up and feed her? Is that just going to undo my hard work to trying to get her back to sleep without feeding if it hasnt been long enough???

ETA Mellyboo thats great, you must feel like a new woman!! Hahaha, do we need Noelle to get you sttn again??!


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## mellyboo

Tess.ie said:


> Noelle610 said:
> 
> 
> Tessie, how many night feeds is she having regularly?
> 
> Well we were down to 2 for a while there, the first was anytime between 10.30-1am ish, and the second was between 4.30-5.30ish.
> But at that time she was also going to sleep between 6 and 7, and waking round 6.30. Somehow lately her bedtime has crept back (the light long evenings dont help) and she isnt having such a big feed before she goes off to sleep.
> 
> The night feeding times now have no pattern, Sat night she hardly fed before bed but slept till 11 and had a big feed then. Last night she woke and fed well after 9 and again 12ish. 4.30 is normally a hungry time too.
> I would like to put time limits on night feeds, but what if she really is hungry and wakes and wont settle and I eventually have to pick her up and feed her? Is that just going to undo my hard work to trying to get her back to sleep without feeding if it hasnt been long enough???Click to expand...


Do you have some curtains that can black out her room, that might solve that issue i find our bed time routine I start upstairs and i close my curtains in my room and her's are always closed so the upstairs is dark and i'll dim a few lights... i make it like it's still dark outside up there :winkwink:

Here it only gets dark around 930pm!


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## stephie_corin

So after a few days on two naps we are definitely back to three cat naps. Can I post our routine to see if anyone has ideas to tweak that might help night sleep:
530 awake
830 first feed and sleep - 30 mins 
1130-1145 second feed and sleep -45mins/1 hour
330-345 third feed and sleep - 30/45 mins
630-7 asleep and last day feed
Around 10-10.5 hours awake time and 2ish hour naps in the day.
It's all baby led. I feed him when hungry and put him down when he is tired and I don't wake him once he is asleep.
He always wakes 45mins after I put him down and last night was every 45 mins after that :(

Any help or tips gratefully recieved!


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## bananaz

I think you guys are right, she probably is overtired. I'm going to give up on moving the nap for now and just put her down when she's ready and then move bedtime up and/or give her a second catnap in the afternoon if she needs it.

This morning she was up at 4:30 and I ran in to soothe her instead of waiting to see if she'd resettle herself. After 30 minutes of me bending over her crib patting her back she just sat straight up and started crying again :dohh: So I fed her and put her back down. She protested at first but now she's really trying to go to sleep, so we'll see.

Aaaand she's up :nope:


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## Noelle610

Great news melly! It takes awhile to start STTN yourself :)

Tessie, at 6 months she may need a night feed, but probably one maximum. I think in your shoes I'd begin to gradually reduce the time spent feeding. So if she feeds for 10 minutes at each waking, perhaps you do 9 minutes (time it) for a few nights, and then reduce to 8 minutes, etc. The idea is that she'll start taking more during the day and need less at night.


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## Noelle610

stephie_corin said:


> So after a few days on two naps we are definitely back to three cat naps. Can I post our routine to see if anyone has ideas to tweak that might help night sleep:
> 530 awake
> 830 first feed and sleep - 30 mins
> 1130-1145 second feed and sleep -45mins/1 hour
> 330-345 third feed and sleep - 30/45 mins
> 630-7 asleep and last day feed
> Around 10-10.5 hours awake time and 2ish hour naps in the day.
> It's all baby led. I feed him when hungry and put him down when he is tired and I don't wake him once he is asleep.
> He always wakes 45mins after I put him down and last night was every 45 mins after that :(
> 
> Any help or tips gratefully recieved!

Hmm.... Your schedule seems fine. Maybe try reducing your wake times a bit to see if the short naps are a result of overtired? You could try:

5:30am awake
8am-9:30am nap 1 (hopefully LOL)
1:30pm-3pm nap 2 (again hopefully :))
6:30pm asleep

How do you respond to the night wakings?


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## Noelle610

bananaz said:


> I think you guys are right, she probably is overtired. I'm going to give up on moving the nap for now and just put her down when she's ready and then move bedtime up and/or give her a second catnap in the afternoon if she needs it.
> 
> This morning she was up at 4:30 and I ran in to soothe her instead of waiting to see if she'd resettle herself. After 30 minutes of me bending over her crib patting her back she just sat straight up and started crying again :dohh: So I fed her and put her back down. She protested at first but now she's really trying to go to sleep, so we'll see.
> 
> Aaaand she's up :nope:

I think you just have to be really, really consistent with these early morning wakings. Maybe you honestly just do a quick diaper check to make sure she hasn't pooped and then don't go in there until 6am. Be a mean mommy :haha:

I do think that more daytime and/or an earlier bedtime may help though.


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## stephie_corin

Hi Noelle, when he wakes I always offer nursing first and if he's not hungry I rock him until he falls asleep. Thanks for the tips. Ill try put him down sooner in the morning but its tough - he fights me at every nap for ages!!!


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## polaris

Melly - Yay! So pleased that you had a good night even if you didn't sleep for the whole of it yourself. I think the good nights do give you back hope that this isn't going to go on forever and these babies will eventually sleep!

Tess - I would go ahead and put time limits around feeding at night. I do think it helps. I'm never able to be totally consistent with it either because I will end up feeding her if nothing else works but at least it means feeding isn't the first thing that I turn to and that she is learning to go back to sleep without being fed every time. You could maybe start with a 3 hour limit, she should easily be able to go 3 hours without a feed I think.

Stephie, if he's fighting you for naps in my experience that is often due to wake times being too long. He might actually settle easier and nap for longer with a shorter wake-time. Then once he's sleeping better and less tired his wake-times will naturally lengthen.

Bananaz, what worked really well for DS when he was in that in-between stage of the 2:1 nap transition was waking him from his morning nap after 30-45 minutes and then giving him his longer nap after lunch, I think it was about 1.30 to 3. Otherwise he would have a long nap in the morning and either refuse to sleep at all in the afternoon or just have a cat-nap and neither worked well for him. Just another option to consider, it's so difficult trying to figure out what is going to work well for the overall sleep pattern.


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## Noelle610

stephie_corin said:


> Hi Noelle, when he wakes I always offer nursing first and if he's not hungry I rock him until he falls asleep. Thanks for the tips. Ill try put him down sooner in the morning but its tough - he fights me at every nap for ages!!!

I'm hoping you'll find if you put him down sooner he doesn't fight you. It's all about finding that magic window!

Have you tried putting him asleep at bedtime awake?


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## stephie_corin

Hi Noelle, we've got a different but related problem that he only feeds when going down for naps or at bedtime. He is too distracted any other time and won't feed no matter what. So he always feeds then passes out asleep and I put him in his cot asleep. Sometimes I've let him lie in bed when he wakes and just watch him on the video monitor. He just gets himself more and more awake and ends up crying if we don't go to him. Thanks very much for your advice :)


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## Noelle610

Have you tried feeding him in his room with dim lighting and no distractions? :flower:


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## Shadowy Lady

Hey guys, haven't been on here for a while but always enjoy reading this thread :) Sofia has been sleeping through consistently the last 2 weeks or so and now we're working on me sleeping through ;)

She's getting her first tooth so she cries whh we out her down but she still dies sleep till 6:30 or so. That's with the Advil we give her at the start of the night. Teething has not been as bad as I thought. I think the crawling in sleep milestone (around 6.5 months) was worse for us.


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## Noelle610

Glad to hear she's doing well Shadowy Lady!

I can't believe how far we've come since I started this thread. I'm terrified I'm going to jinx it, but we're consistently getting 11-12 hours of STTN without a peep and great naps over the last month. I'm sure it won't last - I know there's a sleep regression around 1 year and than again at 18 months - but I'm enjoying it!


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## gaiagirl

So happy for you two! Definitely enjoy it while you've got it, I think it's never safe to assume its permanent (until maybe age 4/5?!). But you both know that better than I!

I know I've already complained about this on here but what's my baby's deal with evenings?!?! Naps and overnight both are fine, at least manageable. We hit road bumps with both but in general they're ok.

But evenings...I have tried earlier, later, late nap, no late nap, bath, no bath, seriously everything. And it's getting frustrating! Yesterday for example he napped amazingly! After struggling with no swaddle crib transfers all week (heat wave) I finally found a good middle ground with just diaper and muslin cloth. Naps, transfers went flawlessly and he took 2 40min naps and a big 2 hour nap. Awesome. Then 7:30 rolls around and he falls asleep nursing/rocking as always but no matter how long I waited to transfer he would wake up INSTANTLY when I tried. I tried resettling in the crib, I even left him in there for 30min (just rolling around playing not crying). Arg! I miss my free time in the evenings!

Finally rocked to sleep, took into my bed and read a book. But wanted to hang with DH and watch hockey game :(


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## Radkat

My LO is going to be 7mo later this week. The rest of the night wasn't much better. She was up every hour. Standing up in the cosleeper. I tried putting her back down, shush and pat, ignoring her, which just caused her to start crying. OH walked her for a bit, that didn't work so I finally fed her. Not sure what else to do. Her naps are still pretty bad. 3x30minutes. I tried to stretch her in between times this weekend a bit and it didn't seem to make any difference in the length of time she slept. We are both really tired and trying to decide what to do to help. Any suggestions?


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## polaris

Gaiagirl, would you consider trying putting him down awake just at bedtime? My son started wanting to self-settle at bedtime at about four months, or at least feeding and rocking stopped working to get him to sleep at bedtime. I put him in the cot awake and kept my hand on his tummy to soothe him and he was asleep within ten minutes (with some crying/fussing). It really helped with bedtimes for us as previously I was spending hours trying to get him to sleep. I kept rocking him to sleep for naps for quite a while longer because it worked for naps but just not at bedtime.

Obviously this might not work at all for you but just thought I'd mention it.


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## stephie_corin

Radkat said:


> My LO is going to be 7mo later this week. The rest of the night wasn't much better. She was up every hour. Standing up in the cosleeper. I tried putting her back down, shush and pat, ignoring her, which just caused her to start crying. OH walked her for a bit, that didn't work so I finally fed her. Not sure what else to do. Her naps are still pretty bad. 3x30minutes. I tried to stretch her in between times this weekend a bit and it didn't seem to make any difference in the length of time she slept. We are both really tired and trying to decide what to do to help. Any suggestions?

Wow, our LOs are so similar!!! We get three x 30 minute naps too, although the middle nap can be slightly longer (up to 45 mins/1 hour on occasion). My son is just over six months. Sorry no suggestions as I am in the same boat as you. Sending you lots of sleepy vibes xxx


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## stephie_corin

Noelle610 said:


> Have you tried feeding him in his room with dim lighting and no distractions? :flower:

Yep and he will still only feed when really sleepy. He goes from flat out refusing the breast to crying for it when he gets to a certain level of sleepiness. :dohh:


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## Noelle610

radkat, have you tried her in her own room? I wonder if your presence is stimulating and causing more waking.

gaia, I totally agree with Polaris - I would try putting her down awake at bedtime if you're open to the idea.

stephanie, that's hard. How established on solids is he?


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## stephie_corin

We are only a week into solids, doing BLW so he isn't eating a huge amount. He's been on this nursing strike for almost two months now! I've done something seriously wrong to mess up his sleeping AND feeding. Hopefully when he is eating more it will help the situation.


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## Twister

Just an update for today:
Morning nap was great, slept for around an hour and 15mins.
Then we all went out shopping for a couple of hours, she was tired on the way home.
Second nap only lasted about 45 minutes.
And I've just put her to bed, self soothed with no fuss or whining, tried to roll over a few times but nothing new there. Fingers crossed for a repeat of last night. If she wakes after an hour again I'm going to do what I did last night and wait a couple of minutes then go up as after that initial waking yesterday she slept for 4 hours, and went 5hours without a feed so I know she can do it!


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## Noelle610

Stephanie, I'd try feeding him every time he wakes us - do a relaxed EASY routine. 

Twister, that sounds great. A 45 minute nap isn't too bad. Good luck tonight!


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## Radkat

Stephie - I know, our LOs seem very similar. Hopefully they will both improve soon.

Noelle - We don't have a room for her to be moved to, unfortunately. We can move the side of the cosleeper up so that it will be harder for her to see us when she does stand up though. We will do that today. I'm still feeding her to sleep at night. Do you think that has anything to do with it? I'm just confused as to why the past two nights have been so awful. Before that we were having 2 night feeds and then maybe 2 other wakeups that just needed shush and pat to resettle her. Not sure what has changed so much in the past two nights. 

In order to switch up when I feed her in the bedtime routine, what do I do if she falls asleep when I'm feeding her? Just wake her up and then change her into pjs, story, etc? I'm anticipating lots of fussiness, but I guess that's just how it goes?


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## Shadowy Lady

Noelle610 said:


> Glad to hear she's doing well Shadowy Lady!
> 
> I can't believe how far we've come since I started this thread. I'm terrified I'm going to jinx it, but we're consistently getting 11-12 hours of STTN without a peep and great naps over the last month. I'm sure it won't last - I know there's a sleep regression around 1 year and than again at 18 months - but I'm enjoying it!

I know I try to enjoy now too and thankfully been sleeping better myself :thumbup:



gaiagirl said:


> So happy for you two! Definitely enjoy it while you've got it, I think it's never safe to assume its permanent (until maybe age 4/5?!). But you both know that better than I!
> 
> I know I've already complained about this on here but what's my baby's deal with evenings?!?! Naps and overnight both are fine, at least manageable. We hit road bumps with both but in general they're ok.
> 
> But evenings...I have tried earlier, later, late nap, no late nap, bath, no bath, seriously everything. And it's getting frustrating! Yesterday for example he napped amazingly! After struggling with no swaddle crib transfers all week (heat wave) I finally found a good middle ground with just diaper and muslin cloth. Naps, transfers went flawlessly and he took 2 40min naps and a big 2 hour nap. Awesome. Then 7:30 rolls around and he falls asleep nursing/rocking as always but no matter how long I waited to transfer he would wake up INSTANTLY when I tried. I tried resettling in the crib, I even left him in there for 30min (just rolling around playing not crying). Arg! I miss my free time in the evenings!
> 
> Finally rocked to sleep, took into my bed and read a book. But wanted to hang with DH and watch hockey game :(

Hope you get a break soon :flower: I remember there were times when I thought I would never sleep again :coffee:. You're saying you have changed many things in the evenings. Can you try and do the EXACT same routine for a whole week and see if anything will come out of it?

Re - sttn not lasting. I think at this point Sofia knows how to sleep through and she hasn't had a night feed in over 2 months. If she does wake up sometimes in the future, it's fine by me. Babies get sick, teeth,...the important thing is that she responds well to her routine and goes back to sleeping again :thumbup:


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## gaiagirl

Thanks ladies! Shadowy I have tried consistency as well, and he just seems to randomly go through a few weeks of (relatively) easy bedtime and then suddenly decide he's done with that!

I have tried just putting him down drowsy before, and for about 3 days just before 16 weeks (when he still took a soother) it worked! I was so excited! And then a few days later sleep went totally crazy AND he stopped taking a soother. Ever since then he does NOT settle in the crib. I mean, sometimes he will be lightly asleep, eyes open a bit when I put him down and then I can get him to close them again but that's rare. Usually it just escalates. I will try again though, maybe he is ready. He has a strong sucking/motion association with sleep, and at this point I'm not willing to put him through great stress to end that, but I am willing to try soothing him in the crib and see! You never know :)


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## polaris

Stephie, Clara is a bit like that with feeds too, but not to the extent of your LO. I did EASY with my son and it worked really well, he never fed to sleep and had his feeds immediately after waking from his naps. I really really tried to implement a similar routine with Clara and she was having none of it. She really only wants to feed before naps and bedtimes - she will take a very small feed at other times but I always end up having to feed her again before she goes for a sleep because she just won't take a proper feed at other times. It's very tricky to break the cycle and I have really given up. Having said that, she has improved recently and has been looking for feeds at other times and only having a smaller feed before naps so maybe she's slowly changing her routine herself.


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## mellyboo

polaris said:


> Melly - Yay! So pleased that you had a good night even if you didn't sleep for the whole of it yourself. I think the good nights do give you back hope that this isn't going to go on forever and these babies will eventually sleep!
> 
> Tess - I would go ahead and put time limits around feeding at night. I do think it helps. I'm never able to be totally consistent with it either because I will end up feeding her if nothing else works but at least it means feeding isn't the first thing that I turn to and that she is learning to go back to sleep without being fed every time. You could maybe start with a 3 hour limit, she should easily be able to go 3 hours without a feed I think.
> 
> Stephie, if he's fighting you for naps in my experience that is often due to wake times being too long. He might actually settle easier and nap for longer with a shorter wake-time. Then once he's sleeping better and less tired his wake-times will naturally lengthen.
> 
> Bananaz, what worked really well for DS when he was in that in-between stage of the 2:1 nap transition was waking him from his morning nap after 30-45 minutes and then giving him his longer nap after lunch, I think it was about 1.30 to 3. Otherwise he would have a long nap in the morning and either refuse to sleep at all in the afternoon or just have a cat-nap and neither worked well for him. Just another option to consider, it's so difficult trying to figure out what is going to work well for the overall sleep pattern.

I totally agree with you it gives you that tiny bit of hope i put her down by 8pm again today to see what it would do we've been going outside before bed ya never no the fresh air maybe helping her out..

She's been down for 2 hours with out a peep yet!!.. Heres to hoping for a good night tonight im almost off to bed! 

I agree noelle , Its almost like you have to re-train yourself to sttn after you've trained baby.. funny how that works out but then i sit here night after night complaining how tired i am.. lol


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## bananaz

gaiagirl said:


> Thanks ladies! Shadowy I have tried consistency as well, and he just seems to randomly go through a few weeks of (relatively) easy bedtime and then suddenly decide he's done with that!
> 
> I have tried just putting him down drowsy before, and for about 3 days just before 16 weeks (when he still took a soother) it worked! I was so excited! And then a few days later sleep went totally crazy AND he stopped taking a soother. Ever since then he does NOT settle in the crib. I mean, sometimes he will be lightly asleep, eyes open a bit when I put him down and then I can get him to close them again but that's rare. Usually it just escalates. I will try again though, maybe he is ready. He has a strong sucking/motion association with sleep, and at this point I'm not willing to put him through great stress to end that, but I am willing to try soothing him in the crib and see! You never know :)

:hugs: Self-settling is a long process for many babies but it sounds like your guy is on his way. You just have to take it a step at a time and celebrate the small victories as you go. Being able to soothe him in the crib would be a huge step in the right direction. 

On a side note, it's so irritating how people push the "drowsy but awake" thing from birth, as if all babies will just drift off if you time it correctly. It took over 10 freaking months before my LO would go to sleep on her own for naps, and that's with me trying every technique and bit of advice I could find. It's so much more stressful when you feel like you must be doing something wrong because you've been told repeatedly that all you have to do is swaddle them and pop them in their crib with a pacifier when they yawn. I swear the people who say that must have a different species of baby!


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## bananaz

Okay so my LO had two appropriately-timed naps and went to bed 15 minutes earlier than usual, so cross your fingers and all other appendages that she will sleep in until at least 5am tomorrow. WTF, how ridiculous is it that I'm HOPING I'll be waking up at 5?! Is this really my life??


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## seaweed eater

Active thread today...I'm sorry to have gotten a bit behind! :hugs: to all. I hope tonight is going well for everyone. Gaia, since I know you're in my time zone, is F in bed yet?

Bananaz, fingers crossed for a nice late morning for you guys :p

I totally agree with you, Bananaz, and others about how some sleep advice is just useless for some babies...for a while I thought all babies cried and protested those things and their mothers were just persevering despite the crying. :shrug: But I guess there are some babies who really do just fall asleep. Never seen it, but if you say so!

Things have been a bit better over here. Still not back to where we were a week ago, but LO is at least accepting comfort from DH and crying for only about two intervals. And night sleep has been quite good, sometimes short (9-10 hrs) but usually two feeds, which is great. So, chances are we will press on. However, I did give some thought to what Plan B is in case it does start to seem like we should change course: probably take a break from sleep training for a week, and then give another try to the NCSS "gentle removal" technique. We'll see.


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## stephie_corin

We had another terrible night but today I managed to get him down for his first nap 2 hours and 15 minutes after waking rather than the three hours he had been staying awake before. I'm going to rock him and try to prolong his nap beyond 30 minutes.

I would love to do EASY and will keep trying but don't like my chances with this stubborn little baby!

Thanks for all the advice everyone.


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## stephie_corin

bananaz said:


> Okay so my LO had two appropriately-timed naps and went to bed 15 minutes earlier than usual, so cross your fingers and all other appendages that she will sleep in until at least 5am tomorrow. WTF, how ridiculous is it that I'm HOPING I'll be waking up at 5?! Is this really my life??

Hahaha I ask myself the same thing every day!! X


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## stephie_corin

Radkat said:


> Stephie - I know, our LOs seem very similar. Hopefully they will both improve soon.
> 
> Noelle - We don't have a room for her to be moved to, unfortunately. We can move the side of the cosleeper up so that it will be harder for her to see us when she does stand up though. We will do that today. I'm still feeding her to sleep at night. Do you think that has anything to do with it? I'm just confused as to why the past two nights have been so awful. Before that we were having 2 night feeds and then maybe 2 other wakeups that just needed shush and pat to resettle her. Not sure what has changed so much in the past two nights.
> 
> In order to switch up when I feed her in the bedtime routine, what do I do if she falls asleep when I'm feeding her? Just wake her up and then change her into pjs, story, etc? I'm anticipating lots of fussiness, but I guess that's just how it goes?

I know we always blame teething, but could it be teething making things awful the last two nights?


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## gaiagirl

Stephie I know teething had been disruptive for us absolutely!

Bananaz thanks, I agree completely! I have totally vowed to stop reading any sleep books and only come on this thread and a support group for WIO (wait it out) style on FB. It just gets so hard sometimes to not stress about what seems normal for my little guy.

Ok so today...sleepy boy probably because he has been up late the last few days. He took 4 short naps, went down easily for all of them (even one in the car which is unusual for him). The last one ended around 5:30 (usually don't allow it that late but he was sleepy). So 7 rolls around and he rubs his eyes so upstairs we go. Got him all ready and then nursed/rocked until he was almost out then tried putting him down. He woke instantly when I attempted to and so I tried to just rub his head/back and shhhhh him but he became fully wide awake and wanted to play! Rolling around, munching on his feet, happy as a clam. Wtf!? I'm not going to he doing CIO but even if I wanted to...how do you get a baby like this to CIO when they won't cry!? 

I tried leaving him in there but he just goofed around sticking his limbs through the crib bars which makes me nervous so I kept going in to reposition him.

At this point he was fully awake and had a total second wind...

Fell asleep 40 min later nursing on the couch while I watched How I Met Your Mother, lol. Then I transferred him to my bed upstairs just to get some alone time downstairs with DH!

Soooo yah same deal. Naps no problem. Seriously no issues transferring him to the crib allllll day. But for bedtime it's a huge issue!

I would think he wasn't tired enough but then why the eye rubbing?


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## NotNic

Bananaz - if it helps early self-settlers can still be dodgy sleepers! Finlay has been excellent at soothing himself to sleep, has from almost birth gone to sleep on his own (he stopped getting drowsy after a feed really early) but..... he didnt sleep for very long, was a dodgy napper and an early riser! Far from perfect!

Noelle - what do you mean there's a sleep regression at one year?!!! Eek! I go back to work when he's 11.5 mths. Such bad timing. :(


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## NotNic

Gaia - I've just seen your post. F quite often wants to play in his cot. I put the nightlight on and the dimmer switch right down and sit in the room next door. I give it 5mins or so and then go back in to lay him down. Now he's older if he's playing quietly I switch on the monitor and get on with my chores downstairs. Once its quiet (or if he's calling out for me) I go back in and tuck him in. Sometimes he's just standing quietly at the end of the cot, and is waiting for me to come and tuck him in. Othertimes he's fallen asleep over his toys. You can leave them to ss without crying being part of it. Much more pleasant for everyone if you can sleep train without the tears!


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## Twister

Bananaz I agree about the whole drowsy but awake thing. That NEVER worked for my LO when she was newborn, yet it worked for everyone else I know who'd had a baby!?!? Hmmm...

Another decent night last night! Only woke twice. Although when she woke at 3:30 am the monitor was turned down low and she was crying. I don't remember turning it down! So she must have woke three times. I hope she wasn't crying for long :(


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## mellyboo

Bananaz- I hope your night was better last night.

Twister- you had a pretty decent night, the same happen to me last night my mointor was low well i had to sleep with the fan on its so hot here all of a sudden i had the worse time getting to sleep and the sound of the fan with the mointor... wasnt extremely loud!
Usually i leave her bedroom door open so i'll hear her anyways but i've been shutting both doors mine and her's and just using the mointor.



My update.. She woke up once last night, I'm not sure if its the heat that's playing her out we've been spending huge amounts of time's outdoors and walking..I live down town but we never seem to walk because traffic is crazy so we always drive but we've decided to walk more... i think she likes it :)...

I also put her to bed at 8 again ? not sure if the slightly later bed time and fresh air before bed is making her sleeping better??

Also she has dropped her feeds like crazy, I've been offering her water like crazy and she will take a few drinks of it and i dont think that would make her drop them this bad she's down to 3 bubba's.

according to my hospital sheet she is only suppose to drop down to 3 bubba's when 8 months and she's a month shy of that.


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## polaris

NotNic said:


> Bananaz - if it helps early self-settlers can still be dodgy sleepers! Finlay has been excellent at soothing himself to sleep, has from almost birth gone to sleep on his own (he stopped getting drowsy after a feed really early) but..... he didnt sleep for very long, was a dodgy napper and an early riser! Far from perfect!
> 
> Noelle - what do you mean there's a sleep regression at one year?!!! Eek! I go back to work when he's 11.5 mths. Such bad timing. :(

Yes, Clara self-settled from about two months old, I just needed to swaddle her and pop her in the basket and she would rub her head back and forth for a bit and drift off to sleep. She was such a great sleeper until she turned four months! I was so sure that I had lucked out this time round.

Re sleep regressions at 1 year - I went back to work when Thomas was 11 months and he immediately dropped all his daytime feeds and went back to waking up at night for a feed. I didn't really feel that I could refuse since he wasn't taking any milk during the day except morning and bedtime feeds. However his sleep then got progressively worse over the next couple of months until I night weaned him at about 14 months. So yeah, even once they are sleeping through it's not all plain sailing! I don't remember a sleep regression at 18 months but he was very unwell at that age and sleeping a lot in general so that might have masked it.


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## polaris

We had an absolutely awful night last night. I think due to illness though, either a return of the cold or possibly she's coming down with chicken pox which my older boy is just getting over. Awake crying inconsolably at least every hour (sometimes more like 20 minutes) and usually taking at 30 to 60 minutes to get her to settle back to sleep again. I slept in her room (what little sleep I did manage to get). Horrible seeing her so upset.


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## bananaz

*Twister* - I'm sure she wasn't crying for long if it was still loud enough to wake you. Glad you had a good night :)

*melly* - Yay for good nights! How is her solids intake? Maybe that's what's making her drop bottles faster?

*polaris* - Ugh, that's awful. I remember several members of this thread had babies waking that frequently due to ear infections, which usually happen after colds - maybe something to get checked out if she doesn't start feeling better?


So I got my wish - LO "slept in" until 5:03am. Unfortunately I still woke at 4:30 and spent that half hour stressing about when baby was going to get up :dohh:

Anyway, I decided to wait it out and she fussed off and on until 6am when I got her up for the day. She never really cried during that time and actually seemed to fall back asleep twice but then woke after 10 minutes and started whining again. Does anyone else's baby do that? I wish I knew what was stopping her from actually falling asleep and staying asleep for another hour or so. She really needs at least 10 hours of nighttime sleep.


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## mellyboo

Mine does that some times i actually see her playing in her crib for awhile before she calls me LOL..

Her solid intake is pretty good she is mostly BLW but she does enjoy her food..

I feed her puree for supper and BLW for breakfast haven't introduced lunch yet she has her bubba around 1


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## Noelle610

I'm a big believe in the fact that moms are programmed to hear their babies when wake. If they need you, you will know! I don't use a monitor and I hear everything!

Melly, so happy for you! Keep doin' what you're doin!

Polaris, yes do get her checked for an ear infection! They're sleep killers.

Bananaz, good for you on not getting her up until 6am. Keep at it. Her body just needs time to adjust, I think.

Re: sleep regression at 1 year - It doesn't seem to be as big as the 4/8/18 month ones, but I've seen it. Some of our BnB folks have posted about it and some of the moms in my mom and baby group are going through it now. I'm hoping we skip it, because sleep is better than ever!

Re: self-soothing. An important skill for sure, but I'm sorry... If your baby self-settles at 2 months old it's personality and not your parenting. I could NEVER put my girl down awake at that age. I always fed her to sleep!


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## Shadowy Lady

eeeek I hope this one year sleep regression doesn't happen to us. Of course that's also when I'm due back at work :/


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## seaweed eater

Ugh, 8 month regression is as big as 4?! Is that the same as WW37?


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## Noelle610

seaweed eater said:


> Ugh, 8 month regression is as big as 4?! Is that the same as WW37?

You know, all of the sleep regressions are different for everyone. And yes, this one is typically referred to as the 8/9/10 month sleep regression and correlates to wonder weeks 37 and 46 in addition to the development of physical milestones such as crawling, pulling up and cruising. 

For us, 4 months well hellish, but this sleep regression came and went pretty quickly. We had a few disturbed nights, but STTN sprinkled in too. Sleep was a bit "restless" like it was at 4 months (I'm guessing because they're learning and growing so fast!) but she was better at settling herself so it required less intervention from mom :)


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## polaris

Thanks everyone, I've made a doctor's appointment for tomorrow morning to get her checked out. Her temperature is up and down and her left eye is all gunky as well so I think she has conjunctivitis as well as a cold and possible chicken pox. And a possible ear infection. Poor girl, no wonder she's not able to sleep.


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## stephie_corin

I hope she is ok Polaris. Sorry to hear she is so unwell :(


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## Noelle610

Hope she feels better hun!


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## Radkat

Polaris-Hope your LO feels better soon. 

Stephie-I'd like to think it's teething but I'm not sure.

Last night was a bit better. Slept from 7:30 to 1am, nursed, up every 45 minutes to an hour after that. Some were soothed with shush and pat, but OH walked her once and I nursed her again at 4:30. She was pretty fussy after that, standing up in the cosleeper, etc. so she came to bed with us. Still fussy which is unusual. typically once she's in bed with us she sleeps well. We got up at 6:15. Ped appt today so she missed her first nap. And she got shots so she was really mad. She woke up after 30 minutes of a nap but I walked her and she went back down again. I'm hoping this is all bc of her learning to pull up and cruise a bit. Hoping to go back to 2 night feeds and good sleep in between.


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## Noelle610

Radkat, did you ask the ped about sleep? I'm always curious to know how doctors respond to these inquiries. Mines amazing and knows a lot about sleep, but others seem utterly useless in that area.


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## Radkat

She didn't seem concerned or think it was unusual. Suggested cosleeping. Also said it was more common for breastfed babies as they get all of their comfort from mama. She also thought her learning to pull up/stand early (LO is not quite 7 mo) could be contributing to it. No real practical advice though.


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## Noelle610

That is interesting! She sounds very progressive.


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## mellyboo

I swear to god if we go thru the 8 month regression as bad as 4 i think were just coming out of it i will run and cry were just getting sleep LOL


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## gaiagirl

Radkat I like the sounds of your ped! I've heard of so many that instantly advocate for sleep training despite what's normal for bf babies. Not that a ped is qualified to give sleep advice ANYWAYS, but still nice to know there are some like yours out there :)


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## Shadowy Lady

seaweed eater said:


> Ugh, 8 month regression is as big as 4?! Is that the same as WW37?

We did not go through the 8 months sleep regression, only the 4 months one :D


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## NotNic

Polaris - Finlay was another baby whose nights were spoilt by that 4mth regression. He actually sttn until 5/6am from 8wks and then when we hit that 4mth regression it kicked our butts hard. WW37 was also tough, but mostly because we had a month of good nights and tbh I felt he was old enough to understand sleepy time. Also he was pulling himself up, meaning I had to work at settling him AND that's when those early starts crept back in. The last WW has been okay. A bit of messing around with naps and probably a week or two of unsettled nights but nothing like before. It's interesting how each baby is different with the regressions.


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## mellyboo

I need all your good night wish's possible! LO had a very messed up day today.

She wouldn't nap that great on her morning nap which is nothing new it's the normal her mid day one was 45 mins which again is pretty " Normal" for her anyway.

what screwed us up was our night time routine argh we had a massive forest fire in my area its been so warm here lately with no rain the whole city filled up with smoke it was gross our house stunk.. My friend live's outside the city so we decided to head there for a few hours until it slowed down in the city they were having a hard time putting the fire out.. i got her in her pj's at my friends house and she had her milk in the car and fell asleep in the car OH managed to get her in bed sleeping but now she's rolling in her crib... hoping for a good nights sleep tonight .


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## seaweed eater

I'm feeling discouraged tonight. I hate the crying every night. Is it too much to expect the crying to be done by now? Even if it's under ten minutes.

I'm really torn, because this has helped his sleep, his routine, and his mood during the day so much. But I'm just sick of the miserable bedtimes. I can't imagine going back, but I want to stop this.


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## seaweed eater

Melly, hope tonight goes well :hugs: you already know, sometimes it just doesn't matter that much what happens during the day...


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## seaweed eater

29 min of crying today. DH seems really burnt out and upset. We're quitting. :(


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## Radkat

Hugs to Melly and Seaweed.

LO's pediatrician is really great. Very warm and caring. I was really impressed that she suggested cosleeping. Didn't even give the "be careful" speech re: cosleeping. Just talked about how it helps them settle.

LO took a nice long am nap 1 1/2 hours. Then 40 minutes for pm nap. I'm sure the morning nap was longer bc of the shots. Fussier today, but not too bad. She's been down almost an hour. I'm hoping tonight goes better than the last few.


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## seaweed eater

I really hope tonight goes better, Radkat :hugs:

That is awesome about your pediatrician. Add ours to the list of ones who said LO should be sleeping 10-12 hours straight at 6 months.


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## bananaz

seaweed eater said:


> I'm feeling discouraged tonight. I hate the crying every night. Is it too much to expect the crying to be done by now? Even if it's under ten minutes.
> 
> I'm really torn, because this has helped his sleep, his routine, and his mood during the day so much. But I'm just sick of the miserable bedtimes. I can't imagine going back, but I want to stop this.

My LO has been self-settling for a while and she still often cries for a couple of minutes while going down for naps and occasionally whimpers a little at bedtime too. Doing a longer wind-down helps during the day but sometimes I think the crying is necessary to help her discharge some energy before she can go to sleep. She's always cried before naps and bedtime, though, even when I was nursing or rocking her down, so maybe that's just her :shrug:


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## seaweed eater

Yeah, I think it bothers me because LO never used to cry before when he was nursing to sleep. Maybe for less than a minute after I put him down awake. :shrug: But now he seems to need DH to go in multiple times. I feel like I know the energy-discharging cry and it's not really that. More like he's tiring himself out through crying.


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## polaris

Seaweed :hugs:
I know exactly what you mean about the crying just getting too much. I think it's OK to give up for a bit and just do whatever works for a while. I don't think it means that the work you have done will be cancelled out even though there probably will be a bit of back-sliding. When we decided that we had done CC for long enough with Clara her sleep had really improved even though it wasn't perfect and the benefits did mostly remain after we stopped being rigid about what we were doing. For example, she mostly self-settles easily now whereas before she always needed a lot of nursing down. And she does sleep for longer stretches since doing CC, whereas beforehand she rarely slept for more than 20 minutes for naps or hourly wakings at nighttime. We didn't go back to that after we stopped, although I know Clara's sleep can be pretty awful at times!! For some reason Clara settles better for naps than at bedtime. Bedtime she still often needs a lot of intervention so I am just going with what she needs and doing my best to put her into the cot awake. But if I need to pick her up and nurse her again or cuddle her a bit more or whatever then I am doing that. I don't want her to cry herself to sleep every night so this is what works for us right now. DS always cried before every nap for about five minutes (but not at bedtime funnily) but that was definitely a winding-down cry like bananaz describes and he would cry before naps regardless of what I was doing. I do think there's a difference between the winding down/letting off steam cry and this bedtime crying. I don't know whether the "right" thing is just to keep going and be consistent but I made the same decision as you and decided that enough was enough.

We had a great night last night after the nightmare of last night, even though she's still not well and was cranky all day. She slept right through until 1.30, had a feed, and straight back to sleep until 6.15. I thought she would be up for the day at that stage but I fed her and she seemed to want to go back down and she sleep asleep now at almost 7 a.m. I feel great this morning because I went to bed at 8.30 (!) in preparation for another night of no sleep and actually managed to sleep all night!


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## stephie_corin

seaweed eater said:


> 29 min of crying today. DH seems really burnt out and upset. We're quitting. :(

Big hugs. I know it works for some people but its not for us, I can understand why you want to quit. Plus think of all the nice snuggles you'll get now xxx


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## stephie_corin

Just checking in... Another bad night although I'm sure we are seeing slight improvements. I think we got at least one 2 hour stretch in there. Yesterday and today I put him down much sooner for his naps and he isn't fighting like he used to. It means an earlier bed time and an even earlier wakeup (5am this morning) but I feel like we are moving forward slowly. Just so darn tired! X


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## stephie_corin

Polaris, awesome news!!! X


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## mellyboo

Oh seaweed hugs ! Lo still cry some times for a few mins .. She's strong willed the other day I kid you not I took her up to her crib for a nap she had screaming fit like a toddler I kid you not .. And it started as soon as we walked in her room I actually left her there for a few mins I don't want her to think she can get away with that it was crazy my friend was over and was like wow you would think she was 2 I'm like yes I no .. She quickly calmed down after 5 mins I went back up and pat her back and she passed out again! 

Soo she only woke up Once last night :) :) .. Seems like this is to good to be true .


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## Noelle610

Hey all! Sorry if not responding to everyone. Catching up quickly because my daughter is sleeping in... I know she will be up soon!

Melly, sounds like you are in your groove. I'm so happy for you. 

Seaweed, it's okay to take a break and re-evaluate. Do what works. Relax and enjoy your baby for now.


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## stephie_corin

Argh help! It's 230 PM and he has just woken from his third cat nap. Do I give him a 4th nap around 430-5 or do I try aim for a 530 bed time?


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## stephie_corin

He hasn't had 4 naps in weeks!


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## Noelle610

stephie_corin said:


> Argh help! It's 230 PM and he has just woken from his third cat nap. Do I give him a 4th nap around 430-5 or do I try aim for a 530 bed time?

Honestly, it's your call. You could either do bedtime around 5:30pm or a short nap at 4:30pm. 

Some kids do fine with the early bedtime and just make up the lack of nap sleep at night. Others will treat it as a nap and wake shortly after they're put down.


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## stephie_corin

Thanks Noelle. I'm so tired and so worried about making things worse. I might go by him. If he will nap at 430 I'll let him nap... Man oh man it just seems to get worse and worse! Ha! Thanks heaps as always!


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## polaris

Stephie, I would probably try for a catnap at 4.30 but if he wasn't settling then I would get him up and go for an early bedtime instead.

Clara is a lot better today, I brought her to the doctor and got antibiotic eye drops, her ears are fine, doctor thought it could well be the prodromal stage of chicken pox though.


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## mellyboo

stephie_corin said:


> Thanks Noelle. I'm so tired and so worried about making things worse. I might go by him. If he will nap at 430 I'll let him nap... Man oh man it just seems to get worse and worse! Ha! Thanks heaps as always!

I'm always worried about making things worse with her too its like im always clueless i've been going with the flow a little bit more and not being so strict on her bed time and etc and she's been doing super well she's done a 360 these pass few days... If she continues on this good streak honestly it took me forever to figure her out!! :happydance:


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## mellyboo

polaris said:


> Stephie, I would probably try for a catnap at 4.30 but if he wasn't settling then I would get him up and go for an early bedtime instead.
> 
> Clara is a lot better today, I brought her to the doctor and got antibiotic eye drops, her ears are fine, doctor thought it could well be the prodromal stage of chicken pox though.

I hope its not chicken pox ick! i remember having it no fun!


----------



## polaris

mellyboo said:


> polaris said:
> 
> 
> Stephie, I would probably try for a catnap at 4.30 but if he wasn't settling then I would get him up and go for an early bedtime instead.
> 
> Clara is a lot better today, I brought her to the doctor and got antibiotic eye drops, her ears are fine, doctor thought it could well be the prodromal stage of chicken pox though.
> 
> I hope its not chicken pox ick! i remember having it no fun!Click to expand...

Her brother is just getting over it so it's pretty likely that she will get it too. She's still breastfed though so she should apparently still have some immunity from me. Hopefully that will mean it's only a mild dose if she does get it!


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## Noelle610

Eesh hope she feels better soon Polaris! It's so frustrating when it's one thing after another.


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## Shadowy Lady

seaweed eater said:


> I'm feeling discouraged tonight. I hate the crying every night. Is it too much to expect the crying to be done by now? Even if it's under ten minutes.
> 
> I'm really torn, because this has helped his sleep, his routine, and his mood during the day so much. But I'm just sick of the miserable bedtimes. I can't imagine going back, but I want to stop this.

My LO still cries sometimes before going down. It's hit and miss. She has been self settling for months now but you never know with these babies:winkwink: Mine is teething now and I can see the top of the tooth so I know she's in pain. 

It's up to you to continue or not. But sometimes it's good to take a lil break and start all over again. You have to do what works with your family. In our situation not getting sleep overweighed the bit of crying so we did sleep train at around 5 months.



mellyboo said:


> Oh seaweed hugs ! Lo still cry some times for a few mins .. She's strong willed the other day I kid you not I took her up to her crib for a nap she had screaming fit like a toddler I kid you not .. And it started as soon as we walked in her room I actually left her there for a few mins I don't want her to think she can get away with that it was crazy my friend was over and was like wow you would think she was 2 I'm like yes I no .. She quickly calmed down after 5 mins I went back up and pat her back and she passed out again!
> 
> Soo she only woke up Once last night :) :) .. Seems like this is to good to be true .

Awesome news:happydance:

Sofia had a bad night two nights ago when she woke up twice (at 1:30 am and then again at 5 am). But poor thing is teething and she has a cold. At 1:30 she went back to sleep on her own after 10 mins but at 5 am I waited a bit and since she was still moaning I went to check on her. She was sitting up in her crib and moaning with her eyes close poor things:cry: I gave her some Camilia and she went back down.

Last night she sttn again though so that's good. She still has a cold and it's messing up with her naps. But the short naps don't bother me as much as long as she sleeps at night:coffee:

Oh and Noelle, I'm down to 0.25mg of Ativan and still sleeping:thumbup: I cant cut the pills any smaller though so I think from next week I just go drug free. Getting me to sttn again has been harder than Sofia learning it lol:haha:


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## Noelle610

Shadowy lady, I'm glad your "sleep training" with yourself is working :haha:

Teething is a bitch!


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## mellyboo

Shadowy Lady said:


> seaweed eater said:
> 
> 
> I'm feeling discouraged tonight. I hate the crying every night. Is it too much to expect the crying to be done by now? Even if it's under ten minutes.
> 
> I'm really torn, because this has helped his sleep, his routine, and his mood during the day so much. But I'm just sick of the miserable bedtimes. I can't imagine going back, but I want to stop this.
> 
> My LO still cries sometimes before going down. It's hit and miss. She has been self settling for months now but you never know with these babies:winkwink: Mine is teething now and I can see the top of the tooth so I know she's in pain.
> 
> It's up to you to continue or not. But sometimes it's good to take a lil break and start all over again. You have to do what works with your family. In our situation not getting sleep overweighed the bit of crying so we did sleep train at around 5 months.
> 
> 
> 
> mellyboo said:
> 
> 
> Oh seaweed hugs ! Lo still cry some times for a few mins .. She's strong willed the other day I kid you not I took her up to her crib for a nap she had screaming fit like a toddler I kid you not .. And it started as soon as we walked in her room I actually left her there for a few mins I don't want her to think she can get away with that it was crazy my friend was over and was like wow you would think she was 2 I'm like yes I no .. She quickly calmed down after 5 mins I went back up and pat her back and she passed out again!
> 
> Soo she only woke up Once last night :) :) .. Seems like this is to good to be true .Click to expand...
> 
> Awesome news:happydance:
> 
> Sofia had a bad night two nights ago when she woke up twice (at 1:30 am and then again at 5 am). But poor thing is teething and she has a cold. At 1:30 she went back to sleep on her own after 10 mins but at 5 am I waited a bit and since she was still moaning I went to check on her. She was sitting up in her crib and moaning with her eyes close poor things:cry: I gave her some Camilia and she went back down.
> 
> Last night she sttn again though so that's good. She still has a cold and it's messing up with her naps. But the short naps don't bother me as much as long as she sleeps at night:coffee:
> 
> Oh and Noelle, I'm down to 0.25mg of Ativan and still sleeping:thumbup: I cant cut the pills any smaller though so I think from next week I just go drug free. Getting me to sttn again has been harder than Sofia learning it lol:haha:Click to expand...

I hear you i keep waking up through out the night now because im like seriously she didnt wake up ?????


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## gaiagirl

Melly that's great! Maybe you're another in proof of the 7 month improvement thing! 

Seaweed xxxxx hugs, that's really hard. I think a break sounds good, I'm sure A will be fine with that and it won't all be for nothing, sounds like he HAS made progress!

Polaris sending love and hugs to your lo, that sounds rough but improving! Just think, if its pox she will spare herself the pain later on and now have awesome lifelong immunity!

Well we had another bedtime battle. I think what's happening is he's taking a light nap in my arms and waking falsely refreshed upon transfer. But all attempts to shhhhhh/pat are a dismal failure. I wish I could load the video of him last night. He had a wonderful time slamming his legs down and giggling. He just really cannot calm himself for sleep without lots of help. 

After I finally got him to sleep in my bed at 9 he actually had a great night and woke only 2/3 times until 8! So still got all the sleep he needs.

Funny thing, I looked back at when those weeks were that we had good evenings and guess what? Weeks 20-23 in between wonder weeks! Lol


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## seaweed eater

Thanks everyone :hugs: :hugs: I'm looking forward to taking a break. Hopefully his sleep won't get too much worse. He'll still be practicing settling without nursing at daycare (assuming he doesn't go back to refusing to nap at daycare, but hopefully the new routine we're in will take care of that).

Last night was actually great once he was asleep. Up to eat just once at 4 and self-settled with NO crying, just chatting to himself. I don't think he's ever done that in his life. I don't know what kind of omen it is for taking a break from the sleep training :haha: but I do know we can't go on at the moment -- it's just too much. I'm just reminding myself that he needs more help right now. And enjoying the cuddles <3

Polaris :hugs: thank you, as always, for sharing your experiences with Clara. It's very validating to know that you made the same decision when facing a similar situation, and also that her sleep was still better than before you'd done CC.

I'm glad you had a good night last night and got so much rest!! :happydance: I hope Clara is better soon AND keeps up the good sleep!

Stephie, that does sound like a little progress. Glad to hear it :hugs: I'm guessing that together with some longer stretches you will also start to see him sleeping for longer despite the earlier bedtime. What did you end up doing with the nap yesterday? The advice you got is what I tend to do in that situation -- try the catnap but only if he goes down really easily. I hope bedtime went well.

Melly, I'm so so glad you are seeing so much progress!! :happydance: Long may it continue!

Shadowy, 2 wakings with teething and a cold doesn't sound too bad, although I can understand why it would make you tired! I hope she continues STTN from now on though. Glad YOUR sleep is better :hugs: please let us know how it goes next week.

Gaia, I'm sorry you are still having struggles at bedtime. I wish I could offer more insight into why that is happening for you! :hugs: Glad he is sleeping better through the night now though. Our second good period of sleep (after 10-12 weeks) was right around 5 months, too.


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## Radkat

Seaweed, I think it's great that you're taking a break. You have to do what is best for you now.
Melly, you're giving me hope for my LO's sleep. My LO will be 7 mo tomorrow. 

Last night was OK but still kinda rough. She slept until 1, but was up every hour after that. Only needed to be walked once but seemed to have more trouble settling in general. Still standing up in the cosleeper. Not sure about naps today as OH, who watches her during the day, says he can't remember what her naps were like. He's as sleep deprived as I am. I'm not sure what to do next. Any suggestions are appreciated.


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## Twister

Hi everyone. Hope you all had good nights.

The last couple of nights LO has only woke twice, which is great! But she's been waking at like 5am which is a killer. I literally cannot keep my eyes open at this time and its obvious she's still tired but she refuses to settle. Yesterday I left her to cry since nothing else was working, which was really difficult, she cried on and off but eventually slept in till 8:30. The only problem is she keeps turning herself over and she won't sleep on her back. Tried to do it again this morning but she just kept flipping over more than usual. Eventually oh went in but instead of giving her a dummy or something he gave her a toy instead:dohh: which annoyed me because she wasn't even properly crying at that point, just moaning and it wasn't at all helpful.

Does anyone have any tips to help stop the 5am wakings? It's just too early for me, if I brought her downstairs you can guarantee I'd end up passing out on the sofa lol. It also means I have to throw in a third nap because she takes her two naps to early (and they're never usually good ones when she wakes this early) otherwise i'd end up having to put her to bed at like 4pm, which means she'd be up for the day at 4am, possibly earlier. Plus she's still tired and not ready to be up for the day yet.


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## polaris

Hi everyone, Clara was back to waking up every two hours last night and not settling without a feed! We seem to have one good night and then one bad night. However at least we are having some good nights now rather than just all bad nights. 

I have a new problem in that the cat has started waking up when I get up to see to Clara at 5.30 a.m. and has started meowing outside my door until I give in and get up too! I know I probably need to let the cat CIO rather than giving in to the meowing but it's easier said than done! She's not hungry because I feed her before I go to bed in the evening, she has just figured out that I'm awake at that time and thinks I might as well be up playing with her. LOL.


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## Noelle610

Polaris, let the cat CIO - she's old enough :rofl:

Twister, a sleep coach I know said 5am is the hardest time for babies and parents with sleep! Here's a good link....

https://www.sleeplady.com/baby-sleep/rise-shine-the-early-waking-toddler/


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## bananaz

*seaweed* - I'm glad you're taking a break. Sometimes when you're met with this much resistance it means they're not ready, or you're not ready, or both. Nothing wrong with taking a breather and trying again later!

*polaris* - I agree with Noelle, time to let the kitty CIO :haha: Seriously though, I have had this issue with cats before, the only solution is to ignore them. The moment you respond and give them any kind of attention the problem becomes way bigger.

*Twister* - I wish I knew how to help with the 5am wakings :( We are still dealing with them here. Noelle's link has a lot of great suggestions though, hopefully you'll find it helpful.


So the good news is that LO has continued waking around 5am the past few days. The bad news is that she's waking at 5am. This means that most nights she's only getting around 9.5 hours of sleep. 

It's been over a month of this (with a few 6am wakings tossed in to give me false hope) and I'm feeling pretty despondent about fixing it at this point. I've rearranged her nap schedule so that she's only awake for 2-4 hours before bed, but that didn't do anything. Running in there and trying to soothe her doesn't help; sometimes she'll lie still and try to go back to sleep while I pat her but it never works and I just get frustrated standing there for an hour. If I don't go in she tries to go to sleep on her own after a few minutes but by 5:30 she is crying again.

I think I may try putting her to bed a full 30 minutes earlier and see if that helps. She's going to be at daycare today for a half day which means she's probably going to be missing her normal morning naptime so who knows how that's going to screw things up...


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## stephie_corin

Bananaz, I have a chronic early waker. We have been up between 5-530 for months now. But the last two mornings I have held him and rocked him and he took another 45 mins of sleep, meaning we were up at 6am. It felt like a massive sleep in! What time do you put your LO to bed? I put Cully down at 6ish each night so that he gets 11-12 hours before his natural wakeup. It's good as it means that we get a few hours of adult time and can still head to bed at 9ish and not feel too tired at the early morning wake ups! 

Polaris, my cats know not to make a noise until they get a pat from me! I've chased them out of the room so many times when they meow at the wrong time. They sleep in the room with us, as well as with our baby! Lucky we have a big bedroom. 

We ended up just going with the three naps and the last two nights I've had a stretch of just over 2 hours. It's so good to see some improvements! We did three naps again today and I am hoping for another good(ish) night! 

I hope everyone has a good night tonight!!


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## NotNic

That's a reassuring read Noelle. I felt mean putting him back to sleep when he woke at 5am but it appears to be working and the expert agrees! Today I went straight in, gave him the dummy and he went back to sleep. I woke to hear him playing at 6ish and he called out for me at 6.15. This is a proper wake up time for me. Hoping we can keep it up x


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## bananaz

stephie_corin said:


> Bananaz, I have a chronic early waker. We have been up between 5-530 for months now. But the last two mornings I have held him and rocked him and he took another 45 mins of sleep, meaning we were up at 6am. It felt like a massive sleep in! What time do you put your LO to bed? I put Cully down at 6ish each night so that he gets 11-12 hours before his natural wakeup. It's good as it means that we get a few hours of adult time and can still head to bed at 9ish and not feel too tired at the early morning wake ups!

Yay for extra sleep! Right now she's going to bed at 7:30pm which I'm thinking must be too late. Honestly I prefer the slightly later bedtime because it means there's less of a rush in the evenings, but I think you're right that it needs to be earlier. Going to try 7pm tonight and see how that goes.

Hope you and yur LO have a good night :flower:


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## mellyboo

Well 2 time's last night so seems this week were down to 1-2 wakings for me <3 Long this may continue..

I'm scared to say anything i may jinx myself.. i'm almost waiting for the crap nights again.. sad isn't it i've just had so many of them.


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## mellyboo

gaiagirl said:


> Melly that's great! Maybe you're another in proof of the 7 month improvement thing!
> 
> Seaweed xxxxx hugs, that's really hard. I think a break sounds good, I'm sure A will be fine with that and it won't all be for nothing, sounds like he HAS made progress!
> 
> Polaris sending love and hugs to your lo, that sounds rough but improving! Just think, if its pox she will spare herself the pain later on and now have awesome lifelong immunity!
> 
> Well we had another bedtime battle. I think what's happening is he's taking a light nap in my arms and waking falsely refreshed upon transfer. But all attempts to shhhhhh/pat are a dismal failure. I wish I could load the video of him last night. He had a wonderful time slamming his legs down and giggling. He just really cannot calm himself for sleep without lots of help.
> 
> After I finally got him to sleep in my bed at 9 he actually had a great night and woke only 2/3 times until 8! So still got all the sleep he needs.
> 
> Funny thing, I looked back at when those weeks were that we had good evenings and guess what? Weeks 20-23 in between wonder weeks! Lol



I sure hope i am.... and everyone told me 3 months PFFT!

oh another note, I'm super happy I didnt visit baby club when i was pregnant i would of been scared lol


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## Noelle610

Yay Melly!


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## seaweed eater

I'm sorry about all the early wakings :( Bananaz, I think putting down earlier sounds good. That seems to work for us sometimes, though certainly not always. But 9.5 hours does seem to be on the low end. Is LO all right during the day (in terms of her mood or energy level)?

Awesome update, Melly! :happydance:

Gaia, to go back to your fighting bedtime issue, I actually think you might be onto something with him taking a nap in your arms and then being falsely refreshed when you transfer him. I've actually found I have an easier time putting Munchkin down if I do it as soon as he unlatches rather than waiting even a few seconds. I tried this based on a suggestion from Bananaz, who said she unlatches her LO when her sucking slows down, which didn't work for us, but might be the sweet spot for you. Anyway, it might be worth experimenting with putting him down sooner.

Last night was perfectly fine, two wakings at the normal 1:30 and 4:30 and then up just before 6 :thumbup: This morning we had an early but long first nap (8-9), which I figured would be enough until afternoon...but I was feeding him just now (11ish) and he could not keep his eyes open. Even when I took him off and sat him up, he would just lean onto me and fall back asleep. I can only remember once when I've ever seen him so sleepy. So I figured I should let him nap. I put him down awake and he was asleep in less than a second. :shrug: Hopefully it won't mess things up too badly. I'm hoping he'll still take a third nap at daycare, even if it's short, but if not I guess he'll get his 10 minutes in the car on the way home.


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## bananaz

seaweed eater said:


> I'm sorry about all the early wakings :( Bananaz, I think putting down earlier sounds good. That seems to work for us sometimes, though certainly not always. But 9.5 hours does seem to be on the low end. Is LO all right during the day (in terms of her mood or energy level)?

It's hard to say because she's a pretty grumpy kid a lot of the time even when she's well-rested, but I do remember that she was more content the mornings when she slept past 6 so I think she would really benefit from more nighttime sleep.

I'm glad you had a good night! When my LO has weird periods of extra daytime sleepiness like that it's usually a growth spurt and doesn't have any effect on bedtime, so hopefully that's the case with your guy.

It's so hot here I had to put LO down for a nap without her Zipadeezip for the first time. She cried for a minute but now she's standing in the middle of her crib with a stuffed animal in each hand dancing and yelling :dohh: Not a good sign.


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## polaris

Bananaz, when Thomas went through his lengthy early waking phase I found that I had to get him into bed by 6.30. I honestly hated it because I didn't get home from work until about 5.15 so I literally had an hour with him in the evenings. But it just didn't work well putting him to bed later - with Thomas it was always very easy to tell when he wasn't getting enough sleep because he would turn into a monster (still does actually). He still woke at 5.30 with the earlier bedtime but at least he would wake up happy rather than waking up grumpy and tired!

I was just thinking that with Clara it is much harder to tell whether she's getting enough sleep because she doesn't get cranky when she's tired. She's very easy going and the opposite of high needs during the day. Thomas was a much harder baby in every other way but in regard to sleep it was actually almost easier with Thomas because at least I knew where I stood!


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## gaiagirl

Thanks Seaweed! I've tried all different approaches and honestly it seems like he goes through phases where he's ok being transferred earlier and phases where he will freak out upon transfer no matter what I do. Seriously today as he fell asleep in my arms he kept opening his eyes to check where he was and then closing them again...lol. I don't know, at some point I'm sure I will have to do some shhhh/patting ad I know there will be a few tears but when I try now he just wakes up fully and there's no hope of sleep so I assume he isn't ready. 

They do change quickly though so I'll try again in awhile...

Still holding out hope that things could look up when the wonder week is over next week...am I setting myself up for discouragement when things don't change? Sure! But oh well..


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## Radkat

So I'm hoping all of you ladies can help me out. I'm trying to decide what the next step is to getting my LO's sleep on track... 

She's 7mo old and sleeps in a cosleeper next to our bed. She's breastfed with one solids meal a day, usually in the evening. Nursing is last thing we do before I put her down, but she is not completely asleep (e.g. she usually fusses a bit once I lay her down). We have bedtime routine of change into pjs, book, nurse and to sleep. I put her down around 7:15pm. I usually don't leave the room for about 5 minutes after she has quieted down bc our bedroom door is really loud and wakes her up if I've just put her down. She usually sleeps until midnight or 1am with occassional wakeups around 10ish, that can typically be soothed with shush and pat in 5-10minutes. After 1am sometimes she's usually up every 45minutes to an hour, but sometimes she'll sleep for longer. But since she's learned to stand up in the cosleeper, she usually stands when she wakes up which seems to extend the amount of time she is awake each time. So I lay her back down and shush and pat. I do one feeding between 1-2am and then another one later, usually between 4-5am. She usually starts waking up more around 5:30 or so, so I bring her into bed with us and she usually sleeps until 7 when I have to get up. 

Naps are not great. Usually 3x30 minutes, sometimes a longer one thrown in there.

I'm not ready for CC yet, but I would appreciate any thoughts on next steps to help her out. Thanks for your help. :flower:


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## seaweed eater

Radkat, do you think she has some association with your presence in a way that is keeping her awake? Since you mentioned that you stay in the room after she falls asleep, and it sounds like she doesn't have a nursing association per se since shh/pat works well for her. What do you think would happen if you left the room before she fell asleep? Maybe you could leave the door open and then come back and close it once she's asleep so as not to wake her. Also the fact that you bring her into bed in the early morning...I know it's hard not to respond to their increased wakefulness at that hour with more soothing but I wonder if it's ending up as intermittent reinforcement for her wakings.

Gaia, I think when you are WIO you should absolutely hold out hope in any way you can persuade yourself to! :thumbup:

Bananaz, I'm sorry but I had to smile at the image of your girl dancing and yelling with her stuffed animals. How did the rest of that nap go? :hugs:


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## Radkat

Seaweed - I think I'm going to move towards leaving the room when she's still awake. I just spent over an hour trying to get her down, which is unusual for her. She kept looking up for me and standing up. I know she's going to stand up and cry when I leave. Since I'm not ready for CC, what do I do then?

I'll try to avoid bringing her into bed in the morning, but I'm sure that will lead to an earlier wake up time which is tough. 

Thanks for the feedback. :)


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## seaweed eater

Hmm, I can think of two ways you could approach that. One is to go all the way outside and then come back in and comfort her, and repeat, until she stays asleep when you leave. The other is gradual withdrawal, where you would put a chair right next to her where you can reach her, then after a few nights move your chair toward the door, and eventually out into the hall, and then attempt leaving the room completely. I'm guessing the first way would involve more crying, since she'd be crying as you leave and come back however many times that would take. But both of them seem analogous with other techniques that are used to break associations (the first is more like PUPD and Pantley's gentle removal, and the second is a method people use in its own right).

The not bedsharing in the morning thing was just a thought...honestly, because I have always known that bedsharing isn't for us, I just haven't read very much about it. I know it's common for parents to bring the baby into their bed in the mornings though. IIRC, Weissbluth's take is that you should bedshare only if you do it consistently and plan to do it from birth...I'm sure other ladies on this thread know better what most of the experts say.


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## stephie_corin

Radcat, I know I've said this before but it is uncanny how similar our little ones are. I could have written your post word for word, including the naps. C can't pull himself to stand though so just moans until I come to pick him up! I've seen some slight improvements this last few days. Not sure if it is coincidence or what I'm doing but I thought I'd share:
- respecting his max awake times religiously. For a while he was happily staying wake for 3+ hours but Ive pulled that right back except for last awake time.
- he was waking up at 5 but now I rock him and bring him to bed with us and he has been sleeping closer to six. It sounds like you already do this.
- we do wakeup at 6 am, first nap 2 hours later, next nap 2.25 hours after wakeup, next nap 2.5 hours after wakeup and bed time 2.75-3 hours later. 
- I'm still feeding/rocking to sleep but last night he slept from 230-5 and I have had a few other two hour sleeps at night which is a vast improvement from the 30 min/hourly wakings.
Again, this could all be coincidence and you might already be doing this but just thought I would share xxx


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## NotNic

Last night F woke up at 1am and 4am. The cats woke me up at 5am (seems they like his early starts...) and by the time OH's alarm went off at 6.40 I was very surprised I was still in bed! Seems yesterday's session at nursery and his motn antics wore him out and he woke at 7.30!!!! Strangely feel like I'm running late already today. Think what I could have got done in those bonus 90 extra mins :dohh:


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## mellyboo

Last night started rough for us I put her to bed and usually OH put hers to bed it's his routine and her time with him since he sleeps all day long because he works nights...and she was sooooo restless from 8-10 she would pass out and then whimper and i could see her rolling in her crib like crazy to be fair it was warm in her room its been so warm here its crazy Oh went up and open the window for about an hour and i hurried my butt to bed because i thought it was going to be a longggg night.... but she only woke up once and slept in tooo :D.

I'm so pleased with her right now, i really hope she keeps this up because this is nice!

Notnic seem like you had a good night all in all though besides the cat ahaha!!


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## polaris

NotNic said:


> Last night F woke up at 1am and 4am. The cats woke me up at 5am (seems they like his early starts...) and by the time OH's alarm went off at 6.40 I was very surprised I was still in bed! Seems yesterday's session at nursery and his motn antics wore him out and he woke at 7.30!!!! Strangely feel like I'm running late already today. Think what I could have got done in those bonus 90 extra mins :dohh:

LOL we need a cat sleep training thread! 

Clara was very disturbed for the first half of the night but she slept solidly from 3.30 until 7.30 so that wasn't too bad, at least I got a bit of rest. (The cat had a lie in too!)


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## Noelle610

Radkat said:


> So I'm hoping all of you ladies can help me out. I'm trying to decide what the next step is to getting my LO's sleep on track...
> 
> She's 7mo old and sleeps in a cosleeper next to our bed. She's breastfed with one solids meal a day, usually in the evening. Nursing is last thing we do before I put her down, but she is not completely asleep (e.g. she usually fusses a bit once I lay her down). We have bedtime routine of change into pjs, book, nurse and to sleep. I put her down around 7:15pm. I usually don't leave the room for about 5 minutes after she has quieted down bc our bedroom door is really loud and wakes her up if I've just put her down. She usually sleeps until midnight or 1am with occassional wakeups around 10ish, that can typically be soothed with shush and pat in 5-10minutes. After 1am sometimes she's usually up every 45minutes to an hour, but sometimes she'll sleep for longer. But since she's learned to stand up in the cosleeper, she usually stands when she wakes up which seems to extend the amount of time she is awake each time. So I lay her back down and shush and pat. I do one feeding between 1-2am and then another one later, usually between 4-5am. She usually starts waking up more around 5:30 or so, so I bring her into bed with us and she usually sleeps until 7 when I have to get up.
> 
> Naps are not great. Usually 3x30 minutes, sometimes a longer one thrown in there.
> 
> I'm not ready for CC yet, but I would appreciate any thoughts on next steps to help her out. Thanks for your help. :flower:

I think a few things would help:

Move nursing to the beginning or even the middle of your bedtime routine. If she's going down more awake, her self soothing skills will improve. 

I would move her into her own space. I think you only have one bedroom, is that correct? Even if there's some divide between you (she's closer to the door and maybe there's a screen in between) I think she'll be less likely to need to nurse back to sleep every sleep cycle.

I'd try increasing her solid intake. I don't necessarily know that it will help her sleep longer at night, but I think it would make you more confident that she's not hungry and that you can space out night feedings a bit. I'd introduce some protein - avocado, yogurt, meats, cheeses are all good sources.


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## Noelle610

Stephanie and Seaweed give great advice. Respect the max awake time and try to avoid part-time cosleeping. It's all or nothing or it's confusing :)


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## mellyboo

I never wanted a cat my room mate* back in the old days* had one once and it would meow all night at my bedroom door


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## Radkat

Noelle, Seaweed and Stephie - Thanks for the feedback.

Seaweed - Thanks for the suggestions on dealing with bedtime. I'll try probably try the gradual withdrawl.

Stephie - I will talk to OH about naps. I thought I heard that you should try to stretch the time out in between naps to get longer naps? Maybe for a different baby, huh? I'll try the 2 hour, 2.25, 2.5 and 2.75 hour time in between naps. 

Noelle - I will try to switch up our bedtime routine and put feeding towards the beginning or middle. I actually don't feed to sleep each time she wakes up. I only do two night feedings usually around 1-2 and bt 4-5, but last night it was 12:30 and 3:30 because she would not settle any other way. Thanks for the advice on solids. I was wondering if that might help. Yes, we don't really have a way to give her her own space right now. I'll think about how to do that. 

Last night was really rough. She had extended wake ups (e.g. up from 11:45 until 1 and 3-4), which is unusual for her. She has multiple other wakeups sprinkled in there as well and she didn't go right to sleep after being fed which she usually does after maybe a few minutes of fuss. After the 3:30 feeding she was up for another 45+ minutes. She would settle, then be up in 5 minutes standing up and crying. Repeat for another 45 minutes.


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## seaweed eater

Melly, so exciting! Every day when I check this thread I keep hoping your good streak will continue :thumbup:

Polaris, glad you got some rest :hugs:

NotNic, I'm glad you got to sleep in, but I know what you mean about the funny feeling that the morning is all gone when you're used to waking up really early :p

Radkat, sorry you had such a rough night, that sounds really hard :hugs: I hope something you try ends up helping. I think Noelle's suggestion to try giving her her own space somehow is a good one. Putting Munchkin in his own room at 4.5 months helped his sleep a LOT. I know you don't have that luxury but I agree that it would be worth trying to have her sleep apart from you in some way, just to see if it happens to help.

AFM, 5 wakings last night :( first time since before sleep training that he's had more than 2. It's not really as bad as it sounds, though, because he did have a 5.5 hour stretch, and he slept 7:30-6:30 all in all.

I'm kind of trying the NCSS gentle removal method...you all probably think I should just calm down, and I see your point :haha: but it just feels like, why not...anything that doesn't involve crying sounds really easy right now. And I'm not happy about having to feed so often during the night. I don't want him to become reliant on nighttime feedings so that later we have a food timing problem in addition to a sleep association problem. That's the main reason I wanted to sleep train in the first place. So I'd rather feel like I'm at least working on it. I haven't heard great things about that method so I don't really think it will work, but whatever -- why not try.


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## stephie_corin

Good luck with the new method SE! It's good to feel like you are doing something, even baby steps. Good luck to everyone else for a good night too :) I'm in bed with my sleeping little man in his cot next to me (and my big sleeping man on the other side). Why is it I get the least sleep out of anyone in the family but am always the last to fall asleep! Ha!

Radcat I have the link to a wake time chart and I will try post it for you, it's really useful.


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## stephie_corin

https://docs.google.com/document/d/...cyas/mobilebasic?authkey=CPXE1bsO&pli=1&hl=en

Here is the link to the waketime chart. From what I understand, waketimes should increase as the day goes on but Noelle probably knows more about this! X


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## Noelle610

stephie_corin said:


> https://docs.google.com/document/d/...cyas/mobilebasic?authkey=CPXE1bsO&pli=1&hl=en
> 
> Here is the link to the waketime chart. From what I understand, waketimes should increase as the day goes on but Noelle probably knows more about this! X

I love, love, love this chart! I know it makes some people anxious, but it's been the key to sleep magic for me.

The first wake time is usually the shortest. The middle one(s) can be stretched a bit - kids are least sensitive to that one. The time between last nap and bedtime is important. If it's too long, it can cause overtired.


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## bananaz

I put LO down a half hour earlier last night and she woke up a half hour later this morning! :happydance: So it would appear that bedtime was too late. 

I might try a 6:30pm bedtime tonight and see if I can finally push her to that 6am wakeup, but it couldn't really be that easy could it?? I actually don't like having bedtime so early, it makes the evenings feel really rushed. Oh well.


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## bananaz

seaweed eater said:


> Bananaz, I'm sorry but I had to smile at the image of your girl dancing and yelling with her stuffed animals. How did the rest of that nap go? :hugs:

I smiled too, it was pretty cute. She finally did pass out and slept for almost an hour and a half, so not bad at all.

Good luck with the gentle removal method, let us know how it goes!


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## Noelle610

bananaz said:


> I put LO down a half hour earlier last night and she woke up a half hour later this morning! :happydance: So it would appear that bedtime was too late.
> 
> I might try a 6:30pm bedtime tonight and see if I can finally push her to that 6am wakeup, but it couldn't really be that easy could it?? I actually don't like having bedtime so early, it makes the evenings feel really rushed. Oh well.

That's great! Honestly, sometimes the answer is simple. I wouldn't rush it. Keep the 6:30pm bedtime for a week and if it keeps working, then push it earlier.

She probably won't need this bedtime forever. You can gradually increase her wake times using the recommendations in the chart Stephanie linked to. Between now and 18 months, a lot will change.


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## Radkat

I'm a fan of charts, so this is great. :) Thanks so much for posting, Stephie. It's great to know that this was helpful for both of you. I have a feeling this will get posted on our fridge. 

OH is pretty baby led (he watches her during the day), but I think he would be willing to try anything after last night. He told me to be careful driving to work today bc he thought I looked so tired!


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## polaris

Seaweed, what way does the gentle removal method work? Is it just trying to take them off before they fall asleep? Clara doesn't usually feed to sleep but she does feed until her eyes are starting to close and her body relaxes. If I put her in the cot when she is still twitchy and jerking her legs and arms then she will cry and won't tend to go to sleep easily, whereas if her eyes are closing and her legs and arms are relaxed she might cry/fuss for a few minutes in the cot but will generally go off to sleep. I would love her to be less dependent on boob to get to that relaxed state but so far I haven't been able to manage it. I have tried moving nursing earlier in the bedtime routine but it's like she is wired going into the cot and she doesn't know how to unwind without nursing down. She always has to have a feed before naps too. With DS I did a loose EASY routine and it worked really well but all my attempts to get Clara onto an EASY routine have failed miserably. Does anyone know any reasonably gentle methods that might help with this?


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## polaris

Bananaz, yay, that is brilliant news!

Even if you don't get to the magic 6 a.m., at least she's getting more sleep which has to be a good thing. But fingers crossed she will start sleeping until 6 - it's so much worse when you see a 5 on the clock in the mornings isn't it. I agree that very early bedtimes suck and make the evening like a military operation. But as Noelle says it's not forever.


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## Tess.ie

Ahhhh this thread moves so quick, i keep losing track of everyone! Especially when I'm checking it on my phone. Will try to catch up, but it does sound like maybe theres a few people having improvements which is great and gives me hope :)

As for us, I think we need to work on an earlier bedtime because Chloe keeps waking up 20mins-1hour after going to sleep. Then again an hour after that. Then sleeps till we go to bed when she wakes and has a feed. (Also need to get her into her own room, I have her cot now and getting the mattress tomorrow. Should I just put her in it for daytime naps for a while, or just go straight into her own room day and night sleeps?)
Last night she also woke at 12.30 and 3.30 then slept till 7.30. It was the first morning in months that I woke before Chloe! Hope she does it again tonight! 

I'm not sure, but there is a possibility that Chloe CIO tonight. She went into bed earlier than usual (6.45) and fell asleep so fast but woke after about 25 mins. I settled her, and went to do make my tea and do the dishes. The monitor is in the sitting room, but with the doors open I can normally hear if Chloe cries. Anyway, never heard anything but when I went through to the sitting after my tea room she was making little crying noises. She stopped so I didnt go up to her just then :( Im not sure if she woke up again and was talking to her self then self settled, or if she was crying and I just didnt hear and she CIO. When I went up just now to check her she had rolled onto her tummy and was sleeping but she doesnt normally sleep on her tummy. I feel really bad, maybe she cried quieter cos she was on her tummy.


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## polaris

Tess, I wouldn't feel bad. I think if she was really upset then you would have heard her. The volume tends to escalate if they are getting upset. She may well have had a bit of a moan/whimper before going back to sleep but I don't think that counts as CIO.


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## Tess.ie

Thanks Polaris, thats what I hoped. :)


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## seaweed eater

Tess, I agree with Polaris, I wouldn't feel bad. You may be right about it having to do with her being on her tummy. Mine hates being on his tummy while awake, so if he wakes up there he usually complains even if everything is fine. Don't worry about it :hugs:

For the transition to the new bed, I'd start with naps and see how that goes. Some babies seem to be fine right away but for us it took a while to get him used to it. Also, is there a way you could separate the bed transition and the room transition and do them one at a time (cot in your room, or whatever she's sleeping in now but in her new room)? For us it was helpful to do one at a time because LO reacted badly to changing beds but well to changing rooms, and I never would have known that it was so helpful for him to be in his own room if we'd tried both at once.

Polaris, yes, the idea with gentle removal is to take them off before they fall asleep. You are supposed to take them off when they are relaxed and sucking slowly, and press on their chin if they start rooting (this makes my LO mad so I skip it). If they continue rooting, put them back on, count to ten, and remove again. Repeat until they fall asleep without being latched on. Munchkin usually wakes up in transfer (I'm deliberately not very careful to keep him asleep) and resettles in his crib, but beforehand he does like to suck until he's asleep. So I guess I see this as a step toward moving nursing earlier in the routine, as you said, which there's no way we could do right now without a lot of crying. I guess maybe you could do something similar to take Clara off when you feel pretty certain that she's sucking for comfort rather than really eating? I don't know if that would work. But if it did, you could then try waiting a little longer before putting her down and try to get some space between nursing and sleep time that way. Even as I'm typing this, I'm doubting that it would ever work for Munchkin, but it might be worth a try? :)


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## polaris

seaweed eater said:


> Tess, I agree with Polaris, I wouldn't feel bad. You may be right about it having to do with her being on her tummy. Mine hates being on his tummy while awake, so if he wakes up there he usually complains even if everything is fine. Don't worry about it :hugs:
> 
> For the transition to the new bed, I'd start with naps and see how that goes. Some babies seem to be fine right away but for us it took a while to get him used to it. Also, is there a way you could separate the bed transition and the room transition and do them one at a time (cot in your room, or whatever she's sleeping in now but in her new room)? For us it was helpful to do one at a time because LO reacted badly to changing beds but well to changing rooms, and I never would have known that it was so helpful for him to be in his own room if we'd tried both at once.
> 
> Polaris, yes, the idea with gentle removal is to take them off before they fall asleep. You are supposed to take them off when they are relaxed and sucking slowly, and press on their chin if they start rooting (this makes my LO mad so I skip it). If they continue rooting, put them back on, count to ten, and remove again. Repeat until they fall asleep without being latched on. Munchkin usually wakes up in transfer (I'm deliberately not very careful to keep him asleep) and resettles in his crib, but beforehand he does like to suck until he's asleep. So I guess I see this as a step toward moving nursing earlier in the routine, as you said, which there's no way we could do right now without a lot of crying. I guess maybe you could do something similar to take Clara off when you feel pretty certain that she's sucking for comfort rather than really eating? I don't know if that would work. But if it did, you could then try waiting a little longer before putting her down and try to get some space between nursing and sleep time that way. Even as I'm typing this, I'm doubting that it would ever work for Munchkin, but it might be worth a try? :)

Hmmm Clara is funny because she is definitely awake going down and actually I don't always put her straight into the cot after nursing, I usually wind her for a bit over my shoulder and sing her a lullaby, so there is a bit of a gap there. But nevertheless if I try to put her down without nursing it just doesn't work. Or not without a lot of crying anyway. But actually writing this out is making me feel more positive about it because actually she doesn't feed to sleep so that must hopefully make it easier for her to break the association down the line when she's ready? In that it sounds like the gentle removal technique is really aiming to get to where we are at as a stepping stone to going to sleep independent of boob - so at least we are already half way there?


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## NotNic

Just a thought Polaris, but could you try skipping the feed bit out of the final part of the routine. So maybe feed her downstairs and then take her to where you usually would nurse her, but instead of nursing go straight to the lullabye and cuddle bit. Perhaps removing the feed location association, might help lessen her need to nurse directly before bed.

I definitely think we need a cat sleep training thread. I regularly co-sleep with my cats and I'd like to wean them of it! :) Seriously though, they definitely do seem to work together. When Finlay is awake they go into his room and he's so excited he squeaks louder. :dohh:9


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## mellyboo

seaweed eater said:


> Melly, so exciting! Every day when I check this thread I keep hoping your good streak will continue :thumbup:
> 
> Polaris, glad you got some rest :hugs:
> 
> NotNic, I'm glad you got to sleep in, but I know what you mean about the funny feeling that the morning is all gone when you're used to waking up really early :p
> 
> Radkat, sorry you had such a rough night, that sounds really hard :hugs: I hope something you try ends up helping. I think Noelle's suggestion to try giving her her own space somehow is a good one. Putting Munchkin in his own room at 4.5 months helped his sleep a LOT. I know you don't have that luxury but I agree that it would be worth trying to have her sleep apart from you in some way, just to see if it happens to help.
> 
> AFM, 5 wakings last night :( first time since before sleep training that he's had more than 2. It's not really as bad as it sounds, though, because he did have a 5.5 hour stretch, and he slept 7:30-6:30 all in all.
> 
> I'm kind of trying the NCSS gentle removal method...you all probably think I should just calm down, and I see your point :haha: but it just feels like, why not...anything that doesn't involve crying sounds really easy right now. And I'm not happy about having to feed so often during the night. I don't want him to become reliant on nighttime feedings so that later we have a food timing problem in addition to a sleep association problem. That's the main reason I wanted to sleep train in the first place. So I'd rather feel like I'm at least working on it. I haven't heard great things about that method so I don't really think it will work, but whatever -- why not try.


Thank you same here! :hugs:


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## polaris

NotNic said:


> Just a thought Polaris, but could you try skipping the feed bit out of the final part of the routine. So maybe feed her downstairs and then take her to where you usually would nurse her, but instead of nursing go straight to the lullabye and cuddle bit. Perhaps removing the feed location association, might help lessen her need to nurse directly before bed.
> 
> I definitely think we need a cat sleep training thread. I regularly co-sleep with my cats and I'd like to wean them of it! :) Seriously though, they definitely do seem to work together. When Finlay is awake they go into his room and he's so excited he squeaks louder. :dohh:9

That would be really ideal if I could do it! I have tried to do this a couple of times but without success so far. I think part of the problem is that she doesn't really feed well downstairs, she gets too distracted by Thomas or by whatever else is going on and she will only have a short feed and then she just wants to finish her feed as soon as we go upstairs. :dohh: So I never feel confident that she has had a proper feed downstairs so I always worry that she is still actually hungry. However I have done this for quite long stretches but it's never really stuck, the feed has always crept back into the last bit of the routine because she just settles so much better and easier.


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## seaweed eater

It does sound like gentle removal is trying to get to where you already are. I know what you mean about distractibility with feeding. What if you gave her a bath after nursing?


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## stephie_corin

For those trying to stop nursing to sleep, is the idea that they wake up more if they are nursed to sleep? What is the theory behind this? I'm just curious as my Dr Sears baby book says nursing to sleep is fine as long as you have a few different associations- like sometimes you rock to sleep, sometimes nurse and sometimes dad rocks to sleep.

I'm shattered today. Culver is definitely teething and all our improvements the last few days have gone out the window. He was up every 30-45 mins between 6-6!! 

What do you guys do about teething? Just ride it out or do you give pain medication? I'm not opposed to pain medication but want to give it only on the few days he is actually cutting a tooth (not every night for a month, for example). I hope everyone had better nights than us! Xx


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## stephie_corin

bananaz said:


> I put LO down a half hour earlier last night and she woke up a half hour later this morning! :happydance: So it would appear that bedtime was too late.
> 
> I might try a 6:30pm bedtime tonight and see if I can finally push her to that 6am wakeup, but it couldn't really be that easy could it?? I actually don't like having bedtime so early, it makes the evenings feel really rushed. Oh well.

I know this might sound like a daft suggestion, but could you get up earlier as a family, whoever is working go to work earlier and try to go to bed earlier. We are in bed by 10pm now no matter what as we know we have an early start. We know its not forever but shifting everything earlier has made the early bedtime and wakeups easier to deal with.


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## seaweed eater

Yes, the idea is that because of object permanence, it's jarring to them when they wake up in different circumstances than they fell asleep. Because everyone naturally wakes up between cycles, but the key variable is really whether the baby can go back to sleep or not. I think if they have different associations then it doesn't really address the underlying problem, because they still can't fall asleep on their own so will wake up needing something (whether it's nursing or dad rocking them or whatever)! But it certainly takes the pressure off mom, and maybe it's easier for them to fall asleep because they're more flexible or something. Our sleep training was essentially trying to get LO used to dad rocking him. So I definitely think there are merits to it, but I don't think it's a complete fix for a baby who really can't self-settle.

I would definitely give pain medication if LO is waking up much more often than usual. No teeth here yet so I'm not 100% sure, but from what I've heard I don't think that kind of disruption usually goes on for weeks. So you are probably pretty close. I hope it ends soon :hugs:


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## stephie_corin

seaweed eater said:


> Yes, the idea is that because of object permanence, it's jarring to them when they wake up in different circumstances than they fell asleep. Because everyone naturally wakes up between cycles, but the key variable is really whether the baby can go back to sleep or not. I think if they have different associations then it doesn't really address the underlying problem, because they still can't fall asleep on their own so will wake up needing something (whether it's nursing or dad rocking them or whatever)! But it certainly takes the pressure off mom, and maybe it's easier for them to fall asleep because they're more flexible or something. Our sleep training was essentially trying to get LO used to dad rocking him. So I definitely think there are merits to it, but I don't think it's a complete fix for a baby who really can't self-settle.
> 
> I would definitely give pain medication if LO is waking up much more often than usual. No teeth here yet so I'm not 100% sure, but from what I've heard I don't think that kind of disruption usually goes on for weeks. So you are probably pretty close. I hope it ends soon :hugs:

Ahhh. That makes sense and is also really depressing for me. I don't think my LO will ever self settle. He's not built that way... I think I'm going to go out and buy NCSS and start thinking about some strategies. Gah! And here I was thinking that all our rocking/nursing was fine. I have never put him down other than completely asleep. It makes night wakings really tough as it takes me a while to get him back into deep sleep.


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## bananaz

stephie_corin said:


> For those trying to stop nursing to sleep, is the idea that they wake up more if they are nursed to sleep? What is the theory behind this? I'm just curious as my Dr Sears baby book says nursing to sleep is fine as long as you have a few different associations- like sometimes you rock to sleep, sometimes nurse and sometimes dad rocks to sleep.
> 
> I'm shattered today. Culver is definitely teething and all our improvements the last few days have gone out the window. He was up every 30-45 mins between 6-6!!
> 
> What do you guys do about teething? Just ride it out or do you give pain medication? I'm not opposed to pain medication but want to give it only on the few days he is actually cutting a tooth (not every night for a month, for example). I hope everyone had better nights than us! Xx

The problem is that some babies become overly dependent on nursing to go to sleep so when they stir at night they think they need the boob to resettle themselves, even if they're not hungry.

If you follow Dr. Sears' advice then hopefully your baby wouldn't build that strong sucking-to-sleep association so it wouldn't be such an issue. That's basically what I did with my LO and I don't think nursing her down ever had a significant effect on her nighttime sleep. At a certain point it was a big hassle though, because she didn't nurse down peacefully anymore and would fight sleep. At that point I needed to help her learn how to go to sleep on her own because I wasn't going to battle her for 30+ minutes multiple times a day.

About the teething, to be honest I just give her ibuprofen before bed whenever I think she needs it. It's really hard to see what's going on in her mouth so I go by how she's behaving.

*Edit:* Yes, seaweed's point is important too. Falling asleep nursing in mom's arms and then waking up in bed must be very distressing for a baby!


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## bananaz

stephie_corin said:


> I know this might sound like a daft suggestion, but could you get up earlier as a family, whoever is working go to work earlier and try to go to bed earlier. We are in bed by 10pm now no matter what as we know we have an early start. We know its not forever but shifting everything earlier has made the early bedtime and wakeups easier to deal with.

That's actually a really good suggestion, but I'm a single mother and the person who usually helps me in the evenings is my mom and there's no way I'd be able to convince her to get out of bed earlier in the morning! And in the evenings she usually can't get to my house from work until 6pm so a 6:30 bedtime will mean I have to forego her help, which really sucks. I guess I'll just have to put on my big girl pants and get over it :haha:


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## polaris

bananaz said:


> stephie_corin said:
> 
> 
> I know this might sound like a daft suggestion, but could you get up earlier as a family, whoever is working go to work earlier and try to go to bed earlier. We are in bed by 10pm now no matter what as we know we have an early start. We know its not forever but shifting everything earlier has made the early bedtime and wakeups easier to deal with.
> 
> That's actually a really good suggestion, but I'm a single mother and the person who usually helps me in the evenings is my mom and there's no way I'd be able to convince her to get out of bed earlier in the morning! And in the evenings she usually can't get to my house from work until 6pm so a 6:30 bedtime will mean I have to forego her help, which really sucks. I guess I'll just have to put on my big girl pants and get over it :haha:Click to expand...

That really does suck! I actually did change my working hours to 8.30 to 4.30 as otherwise I literally would have had no time at all with Thomas in the evenings when he was going to bed so early. My OH works evenings so I do understand how crappy it is doing bedtimes on your own (but obviously the advantage for me is that he is quite often here during the day). I have such respect for single mothers, it's hard enough work when there is someone else to take over when necessary.


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## Twister

Hey ladies, not read all the responses but I hope everyone's having good nights.

Still down to 2 wake ups although I realised the other day that she usually wakes up once or twice before I go to bed at around 10-11pm so technically she's waking 3-4 times but I only have to get up twice:dohh: Still it's better than it was so I can't complain.

She's still waking up early, this morning it was 5:45 and I ended up bringing her into our bed. I'm soooo tired in the mornings because of it and i'm finding it super difficult to stay awake once shes up for the day. We're working on it though.


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## stephie_corin

bananaz said:


> stephie_corin said:
> 
> 
> I know this might sound like a daft suggestion, but could you get up earlier as a family, whoever is working go to work earlier and try to go to bed earlier. We are in bed by 10pm now no matter what as we know we have an early start. We know its not forever but shifting everything earlier has made the early bedtime and wakeups easier to deal with.
> 
> That's actually a really good suggestion, but I'm a single mother and the person who usually helps me in the evenings is my mom and there's no way I'd be able to convince her to get out of bed earlier in the morning! And in the evenings she usually can't get to my house from work until 6pm so a 6:30 bedtime will mean I have to forego her help, which really sucks. I guess I'll just have to put on my big girl pants and get over it :haha:Click to expand...

I can't even imagine how hard it is by yourself. You are my hero! My DH works late and often isn't home until after C is in bed so I do bedtime routine by myself and it is tough, so I understand your reluctance! What's helped me shift from 5am to 6am wakeup is to literally be more stubborn than him for a few days an refuse to get up. I will rock him, nurse him or do whatever it takes to get him down that extra hour and I think their natural body clock will eventually adjust. If you want a 7am wake up, maybe try something similar to extend the natural wakeup time for a week and see if it makes a difference? It might be a stupid suggestion in light of he above posts about sleep associations but this morning I noticed it was easy to get him to sleep until six when he woke at 5 so even a few days of insisting on a later wakeup seems to have helped.


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## Noelle610

We had a weird night. C has been STTN consistently for about 3 weeks now. She was up at 11 and 5 and then woke at 6 crying, which is unusual for her. Teething? Who knows.


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## bananaz

stephie_corin said:


> I can't even imagine how hard it is by yourself. You are my hero! My DH works late and often isn't home until after C is in bed so I do bedtime routine by myself and it is tough, so I understand your reluctance! What's helped me shift from 5am to 6am wakeup is to literally be more stubborn than him for a few days an refuse to get up. I will rock him, nurse him or do whatever it takes to get him down that extra hour and I think their natural body clock will eventually adjust. If you want a 7am wake up, maybe try something similar to extend the natural wakeup time for a week and see if it makes a difference? It might be a stupid suggestion in light of he above posts about sleep associations but this morning I noticed it was easy to get him to sleep until six when he woke at 5 so even a few days of insisting on a later wakeup seems to have helped.

I think you're right and I need to just tough it out and refuse to get her up until 6. That was Noelle's suggestion too and I did it a few times but I never managed to actually get her back to sleep after her 5am waking so I got discouraged and gave up. 

But let it be known that for the next week my child will not be exiting her crib until 6am no matter what, even if it means I have to stand there trying to pat her back for an hour while she screams and crawls away from my hand. Ugh :coffee:


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## bananaz

Noelle610 said:


> We had a weird night. C has been STTN consistently for about 3 weeks now. She was up at 11 and 5 and then woke at 6 crying, which is unusual for her. Teething? Who knows.

Aw, poor Charlotte. We had a very similar night actually. E has also been STTN for weeks (well, her own ~9.5 hour version of STTN) but last night she was crying at 9pm and 3:30am and then up for the day at 5am, despite an earlier bedtime. I'm wondering if it's teething too, though we are approaching a WW here aren't we? She's been an absolute terror during the day for the past few weeks, and I mean that in the fondest way possible :wacko:


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## Noelle610

bananaz said:


> Noelle610 said:
> 
> 
> We had a weird night. C has been STTN consistently for about 3 weeks now. She was up at 11 and 5 and then woke at 6 crying, which is unusual for her. Teething? Who knows.
> 
> Aw, poor Charlotte. We had a very similar night actually. E has also been STTN for weeks (well, her own ~9.5 hour version of STTN) but last night she was crying at 9pm and 3:30am and then up for the day at 5am, despite an earlier bedtime. I'm wondering if it's teething too, though we are approaching a WW here aren't we? She's been an absolute terror during the day for the past few weeks, and I mean that in the fondest way possible :wacko:Click to expand...

Ugh I can't wait until these wonder weeks are OVER!!!

Charlie has been pretty cranky too, come to think of it.

I wish there was a baby thermometer that told you what was wrong with them. It could read "teething", "wonder week", "gas", etc.


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## polaris

bananaz said:


> stephie_corin said:
> 
> 
> I can't even imagine how hard it is by yourself. You are my hero! My DH works late and often isn't home until after C is in bed so I do bedtime routine by myself and it is tough, so I understand your reluctance! What's helped me shift from 5am to 6am wakeup is to literally be more stubborn than him for a few days an refuse to get up. I will rock him, nurse him or do whatever it takes to get him down that extra hour and I think their natural body clock will eventually adjust. If you want a 7am wake up, maybe try something similar to extend the natural wakeup time for a week and see if it makes a difference? It might be a stupid suggestion in light of he above posts about sleep associations but this morning I noticed it was easy to get him to sleep until six when he woke at 5 so even a few days of insisting on a later wakeup seems to have helped.
> 
> I think you're right and I need to just tough it out and refuse to get her up until 6. That was Noelle's suggestion too and I did it a few times but I never managed to actually get her back to sleep after her 5am waking so I got discouraged and gave up.
> 
> But let it be known that for the next week my child will not be exiting her crib until 6am no matter what, even if it means I have to stand there trying to pat her back for an hour while she screams and crawls away from my hand. Ugh :coffee:Click to expand...

This is what I did with Thomas, I refused to get him up until 6 a.m. Initially I tried to get him back to sleep but that never worked so I just ignored him until 6 a.m. even if he was giving out - I only went in to check on him if he was really properly crying but I still wouldn't take him out of the room until 6. It didn't work to get him to sleep later but it did work to get me some extra time in bed because after a while of doing this he would just wake up and chat to himself happily for up to an hour before I eventually got him up.


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## bananaz

Noelle610 said:


> Ugh I can't wait until these wonder weeks are OVER!!!
> 
> Charlie has been pretty cranky too, come to think of it.
> 
> I wish there was a baby thermometer that told you what was wrong with them. It could read "teething", "wonder week", "gas", etc.

Oh my gosh, that would be awesome. It wouldn't even have to be that specific, just "in pain" or "frustrated" or "sick" or "pushing your buttons" would be awesome.


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## aliss

Need some advice girls.

P has been waking at 3-4am and is wide awake and cooing. He doesn't really cry much but he does eventually fuss. We're bedsharing. Right now I'm just pretending to sleep keep resettling him/not engaging and eventually he goes back down but it can take 20 minutes on a good morning and up to an hour on a bad one.

What to do... putting him in another room is not an option, we live in a very small place, Alex has the other bedroom, and any other place would wake Alex. I don't need 2 whiney babies.

He's on a pretty rigid routine.

6pm- bedtime (right away, no fights)
Night nursings (I don't mind this)
5:30am- awake (we're all awake at this time), of course it's been 3-4am lately
8-10am nap 
1-3pm nap (these really don't change) -> not bedsharing, in his crib

He self settles fine.


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## Noelle610

Aliss, his schedule looks fantastic. We've gone through phases like this and the most vivid one in my memory was around 6/7 months. Charlotte was waking around that time and staying awake for an hour +. It was so frustrating! Unfortunately I don't have any wise wisdom - it just passed. I might try and cap naps at 90 minutes to see if it helps (try 8:30-10 and 1:30-3 if you want), but I'm not crazy about waking a sleeping baby at this age!


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## mrsbeano

Have you tried him in his own bed for the night? He sounds like hes doing great aside from this though - lovely naps. 

It is a phase that Quinn went through but I just ignored him. He was in his own room and it was much easier to ignore him in there though. He wasn't upset but just wakeful - I think it was crawling related.


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## aliss

Thanks Noelle & MrsBeano, I know they are pretty aweseome naps, I've been really lucky with that. 

I try him in his own bed at night BUT actually this is my fault... I get so lazy that when I get up with him during the night, I fall asleep with him in our bed without even thinking :sleep: Last night, I went to bed at 9:30pm with him in the crib and woke up with him in the bed at 3am, I don't even remember how it happened LOL


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## Shadowy Lady

Aliss - we went through the exact same thing with Sofia around 5.5 months. I remember coming here for advice. I think in the end we just waited it out and it took about 8 nights for her to stop. It was rough but it did end.

Bananaz - so glad the earlier bedtime is helping Elsie sleep in a bit more.

Noelle - eeeek sounds like teething! Hope it/they poke through soon. Love the new avi btw :)

Sofia's first tooth is almost out and her cold is still there. She woke up today at 5 am again....though she had her eyes closed, sitting up in her crib and moaning exactly like 2 nights ago. Went in, gave her Tylenol, fed her and she slept till 8 am. Cannot wait for this damn tooth to be out!!!

I'm exhausted today, fighting a bad cold myself and colds always mean earache for me :(


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## Radkat

We had a pretty good night. I made a plan from all of your suggestions - walked out before she was asleep, she cried of course, I let her cry for a few minutes, laid her back down several times, settled her by shush and pat, walked out again while she was still awake, she cried for 2 minutes and was asleep. I couldn't believe it. She slept from 7:30 to 2:15. Nursed, some more laying her back down, but only for maybe 5 minutes. Up around 4 but quickly settled. Up at 5 wouldn't settle, nursed. And she was totally awake. Couldn't get her to settle by laying her back down and patting after 40 minutes, so I brought her into bed with us and she slept until 7:40. 

Will be doing the nap plan today of shorter times bt naps. He just woke up from a 30 minute nap. Went down pretty well. Here's hoping...


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## Boo44

Hi girls! Have I missed anything?!

We're just back from Majorca today and had a fantastic time we all loved it! Didn't want to come home - only 10 days until I go back to work now!!

Anyway despite learning to crawl the day before we went, Jack actually sttn every night we were there! We of course had some early wakings as is his usual. But I'll take that! One day he simply refused his morning nap and ended up having his very first ever one nap day! That night he slept 12 full hours. I was so excited at the idea of switching him to one nap there and then lol. But he had his 2 naps every other day and slept 11 hr nights. So I'll wait a bit longer


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## mellyboo

Boo44 said:


> Hi girls! Have I missed anything?!
> 
> We're just back from Majorca today and had a fantastic time we all loved it! Didn't want to come home - only 10 days until I go back to work now!!
> 
> Anyway despite learning to crawl the day before we went, Jack actually sttn every night we were there! We of course had some early wakings as is his usual. But I'll take that! One day he simply refused his morning nap and ended up having his very first ever one nap day! That night he slept 12 full hours. I was so excited at the idea of switching him to one nap there and then lol. But he had his 2 naps every other day and slept 11 hr nights. So I'll wait a bit longer

Thats awesome news BOO seem's like you had a very good vacation, happy for you!:happydance:


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## seaweed eater

Aliss, I agree with the others, it sounds like your schedule is just fine, though possibly too much napping (I know it would be way too much for mine but of course every baby is different). I hope it passes soon :hugs:

Stephie, you may find he sleeps longer too if you can move to putting him down awake or almost. He will self-settle someday! When he's 13, he won't be asking to nurse or be rocked to sleep. :hugs:

Noelle, Bananaz, and Shadowy, hope you all have better nights tonight :hugs: 11 1/2 months is an iffy time, huh?

Boo, sounds like an awesome vacation! I'm glad Jack let you rest and enjoy it :thumbup:

Radkat, that is such amazing news!!! :happydance: :happydance: I hope things continue to get better for you!

Well the last two nights have been back to the old nonsense here :sleep: I sure didn't miss waking up so tired in the morning. I think we had 6 wakings last night but I don't really remember. At least he has slept until 6:30 both days. Small victories.

DH even said, "We should go back to sleep training." I really want at least a full week of no crying to let everyone's nerves recover a little, though.

Assuming the past two nights haven't been a fluke and we need to try something else, I think the next thing will be gradual withdrawal. I'm not sure, though...it just doesn't seem like a good fit for my LO. I don't think it will help him very much. But I don't know what else we have left to try before CC. Any suggestions would be welcome.

I don't know whether gentle removal is helping us at all. Clearly it is not doing much for his ability to sleep through. Also, I don't think it's taking any fewer removals and re-latches since we started. It still feels like about one million of them each time (probably closer to 30). I always mean to keep track but then lose count. I think it's just interrupting his usual process of comfort sucking until exactly the same point when I used to put him down before. :shrug:


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## seaweed eater

Oh, and has anyone used a paid sleep consultant? What are your thoughts on them?


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## Twister

Ugh, she woke St 3:30, so I fed her and out her in her cot asleep but she woke again so I tried to do CIO. She was crying for around half an hour, i checked on her about 3 timesjust to make sure age hadn't flipped over but it got to the point where she kept stopping then starting again and I couldn't take it anymore i just felt so bad for her so here I am feeding her again. Not sure if I'm doing it right this whole CIO thing:(


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## stephie_corin

I'm broken, shattered. I put the washing on this morning and couldn't stop crying. He was up every 45 minutes again but at 230 am he wouldn't go to sleep. I finally gave him paracetamol at 330 in case it was his teeth and he didn't go to sleep until 450... Only to wake at 520 again. He then slept until 6 in my arms.

I know everyone is in the same boat but I feel like I've reached breaking point. I'm reading NCSS which is meant to be a longer term solution but I need something to change soon as I can't go on. 

I respect his wake times. He goes to bed at 6pm. The only thing I can think to change is his naps, which are 3 x 30 mins. Should I be trying to extend them? I always thought I should respect his natural napping pattern but I can potentially rock him and get him to nap longer. 

Sorry to everyone who had a bad night and I hope everyone else who is having good nights continues with the good sleep :)

ETA- I wonder if this is due to him looking like he is learning to crawl. These last two nights correspond to him suddenly getting up on all fours and rocking and becoming a lot more mobile. Also, the paracetamol doesn't seemed to have done anything, so maybe it isn't teething.


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## seaweed eater

Hugs Stephie :hugs: :hugs: he really is waking up every cycle, huh?

I'm sorry I can't remember if there's been any discussion of C's daytime routine before. 3 naps would be too many for my LO and 6 PM would be too early. Does he go down easily for the naps? Are they around the same time every day or do you go completely by his cues?

He may be ready for 2 longer naps, especially if it's possible for you to extend his naps (I wish mine would let me do that). But I don't think needing 2 naps rather than 3 is likely to cause the kind of sleep disruption you are seeing.

I would start working on his nursing association and putting him down awake. Are you nursing every time he wakes up?

Twister :hugs: I'm sorry, it is stressful to hear your baby cry for so long. I think CIO will be more effective for you if you start at bedtime rather than NWs, and if you are willing to stick it out for 2+ hours. I think it could be confusing to her if you let her cry for some time and then go in and nurse her, even though naturally that's the response you would have.


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## stephie_corin

Thanks SE. I spoke too soon. I tried to extend his first nap but no luck! I did rock him to sleep after nursing him though, so that was a good start.

Normally (on a 5-6 wake up night between 10pm and 6am) he only feeds twice and the rest of the time he just needs to be rocked to sleep. The last two nights he has wanted to nurse every wakeup pretty much, even though I know he is not hungry. That's why I thought it could be teething.

I will try putting him down awake, although I think that one will be a work in progress! Thanks so much for your kind words and support. X

ETA - normally I nurse him down for every nap and at bed time but not for every night waking. He goes down pretty easily but only with my help ie nursing or rocking. We try and go by max awake times but I watch for sleepy cues. We usually do nap 1 2 hours after waking, nap 2 2.25 hours after waking, nap 3 2.5 hours after waking and bedtime 2.75-3 hours after waking. Each nap lasts 30-45 mins.

I aim for 6pm bedtime because he is an early riser and thought he needed 12 hours at night, plus any later and his last awake time is very long. He usually has his last cat nap around 2-230pm.


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## polaris

Oh no, sorry to hear about the bad nights.

Seaweed, that is so disappointing that the last two nights have been so terrible. Gradual withdrawal is actually what I would really like to do with Clara, I think it might be quite a good fit for her as she is quite comforted just by my presence sometimes. I have been sleeping in her room for much of the night for the last couple of nights because she's still quite unwell and I do think she sleeps better when I'm there. Unfortunately I'm just not able to do gradual withdrawal consistently because I also have a toddler and I just can't leave him on his own for hours while I sit with Clara while she goes to sleep. Re professional sleep consultants - I really strongly considered it when Clara was younger because nothing seemed to work for her and I just felt really at a loss what to try next. I didn't do it in the end though - I think a huge benefit would be not having to second guess yourself and just do whatever somebody else told you to do. Which would definitely help to be more consistent I think. But that would be dependent on trusting the person's judgement and methods so I would definitely try and speak to the person first and sound them out on a few things to see if it would be a good fit.

Stephie :hugs: I remember so clearly being at that point with Clara, her sleep was very similar to what you describe. It really is soul destroying. I just couldn't take anymore and did CC but honestly it didn't work very well with Clara and involved an awful lot of crying. Obviously it works quickly and easily for some babies but not for us! I would definitely try to extend his naps if at all possible. Clara used to take three 20 minute catnaps whereas after doing CC she immediately started taking two 2 hour naps so she obviously did need more daytime sleep. She never seemed tired when she woke from a nap but I do think they are generally better rested when they are taking longer naps. I do think the extra sleep disturbances could definitely be related to learning to crawl. So maybe just doing whatever it takes to get through this couple of weeks and things might just improve a bit naturally?

Twister :hugs: I think the big problem with letting them cry sometimes and feeding them sometimes is that it sets up what is called an intermittent reinforcement schedule. Basically what this means is that sometimes the baby cries and gets reinforcement for that (nursing/being picked up/etc.) whereas sometimes they cry and don't get reinforcement (CIO). The difficulty is that because they are getting reinforcement some of the time the crying doesn't stop and actually they can tend to cry for longer and be more persistent. Also when crying is sometimes reinforced and sometimes not, it becomes much harder to break the pattern because if you do then decide to do CIO or CC, the baby is likely to cry for longer because they know that sometimes they do end up being picked up and nursed in that situation so they will tend to be more persistent. It's easier said than done though, I am horrendously inconsistent with Clara despite knowing all this!

Boo - so glad you had a lovely holiday.

Aliss - I agree that the schedule sounds perfect. Don't know what to suggest. Extended night wakings are just the worst though in my opinion, you have my sympathies!

Radkat - yay! That sounds like your plan is really working well - so pleased for you!

I know I've forgotten loads but I don't have time to check back through the thread now - so sorry to everyone I've forgotten.


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## Twister

Thanks Polaris and SE. It so hard, I regret it now tbh as I feel she wouldn't have cried for that long if she didn't really need me iykwim. I was just soooooo tired and my patience is horrendous during night wakings:(


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## angelwings7

Hi Ladies, I'm having so many problems with my 19 weeks old baby he only naps 45min at a time during the day and at night he wakes up for his feed at 2;30 and I usually spend 2 hours trying to get him back to sleep as he just seems so wide awake for some reason. He has never slept through the night but he just always seems to wake up constantly from 2:30 to 6am when finally we get up for the day, I'm just so tired and depressed from it and don't know what I'm doing wrong. He does have silent reflux and is on medication for it so I have his cot at an angel. Just wondering if anyone has some good advice as this is my first baby and it's all new to me.


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## stephie_corin

Thanks Polaris. I think we will wait it our before trying any thing else for a while. We are finally in a bit of a routine and I was seeing improvements so I'm hoping it is just the crawling, and that he figures it out pretty soon! For all my bragging about extending naps, I've had no luck today! Ha!

Wishing everyone lots of sleep tonight xxx


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## stephie_corin

angelwings7 said:


> Hi Ladies, I'm having so many problems with my 19 weeks old baby he only naps 45min at a time during the day and at night he wakes up for his feed at 2;30 and I usually spend 2 hours trying to get him back to sleep as he just seems so wide awake for some reason. He has never slept through the night but he just always seems to wake up constantly from 2:30 to 6am when finally we get up for the day, I'm just so tired and depressed from it and don't know what I'm doing wrong. He does have silent reflux and is on medication for it so I have his cot at an angel. Just wondering if anyone has some good advice as this is my first baby and it's all new to me.

Hi and welcome :) it sounds like the dreaded four month sleep regression! Which in our case has lasted three months! Everyone on this thread is super helpful so I'm sure you will get lots of support. It might be useful to post your day time routine- when naps usually are and bedtime, plus how you get him to sleep xxx


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## Noelle610

angelwings7 said:


> Hi Ladies, I'm having so many problems with my 19 weeks old baby he only naps 45min at a time during the day and at night he wakes up for his feed at 2;30 and I usually spend 2 hours trying to get him back to sleep as he just seems so wide awake for some reason. He has never slept through the night but he just always seems to wake up constantly from 2:30 to 6am when finally we get up for the day, I'm just so tired and depressed from it and don't know what I'm doing wrong. He does have silent reflux and is on medication for it so I have his cot at an angel. Just wondering if anyone has some good advice as this is my first baby and it's all new to me.

Hey Hun! Short naps are normal at this age. What's a typical day/night like? When does he nap/go to bed?


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## Boo44

Well, have found one downside to coming home from holiday - jack seems to have forgotten how to self settle for naps! He self settled every night in his cot on holiday. And he did so last night at home too, no probs. But on holiday his naps were all (without exception) buggy naps. And today he's been fine when I put him down but then started crying his heart out when I leave the room - totally new! So I've basically just had to let him CIO for his nap! Although I did go in to reassure him twice. And it only took 12 mins. So hopefully it will pass once he remembers how to do it....

Also out of interest / one day on Hols he simple refused his am nap no matter how hard we tried. So that day he ended up having a 2 hour nap after lunch (1.30 til 3.30) and was totally fine. Then slept 12 hr solid that night (usually does 10.5 or 11 hrs so not a lot of difference but a slightly later morning!)
My SIL and MIL aaaand my mum are all mentioning that 'soon' he should be on one nap. And I'm aware I'm back to work next week so him having one nap would work better for his child minders (mum/MIL/different SIL). But I remember Noelle saying that a baby of less than 1 rarely ever drops to one nap? So I'm in two minds about it all...


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## mrsbeano

Hi Boo, glad you had a good holiday. I don't think 12 minutes sounds that bad but then again I'm a bit mean and always give Quinn 15 minutes to let off some steam if he's fighting it. 

Re your one nap conundrum, we're in a bit of a transition. When Quinn's at nursery and so excited by all the playing to be done, he only has one nap. Some days he might fall asleep on the journey home but not very often nowadays. When he's at home though, he has 2 naps and I have no idea how he does it at nursery. 

He doesn't seem overtired on nursery days but he is ready for bed at 7. We think he catches up on the weekend lol.


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## Noelle610

Boo, it's a bit early but he may be ready - especially if he sleeps well at night. Does he seem happy and well rested during the day? I think something like 5-10% of babies make the transition before a year, so there's no reason Jack couldn't be one of them. When Charlotte has one nap we just end up doing a slightly earlier bedtime if the nap ends on the early side and it's going well (fingers crossed). Also, on the naps - I'm sure he'll adjust quickly, holidays always kind of do those things.

My daughter.... Yes, MINE, the one who inspired this thread.... slept FOURTEEN HOURS STRAIGHT last night. I thought she was sick! She refused her afternoon nap after sleeping 9am-11am and fell asleep for the night in my hubby's arms at 5:30pm. We thought for sure she would be up at 4:30am, but she slept until 7:30am - super late in this household. And she was totally fine today, happy as can be! Skipped her AM nap of course, but crashed around 12:45pm.


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## mellyboo

haha Noelle i would of been worried sick and would of kept checking on her aha guess she needed some much sleep!


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## mellyboo

Jords is having a mini relaspse and brought her wakings to 3 instead of 1-2 still better then the 8 some times i was having though

to be fair she's had a messed up few days and napping over at nana's house instead of ours things are back to normal tomorrow..


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## Boo44

Thanks for the advice mrsbeano and noelle :) Maybe I just need to see how it goes. I'm sticking with his 2 naps for now anyway. Who knows what will happen when I go back to work. I know my mum will recreate everything that I do as she knows him best and appreciates his routine. I feel my MIL will just do whatever and go by Jack no matter what I say (!) and my SIL, well she has a 7 month old baby of her own, so I don't envy her trying to get both to nap! (Although she's really keen to have him)

Noelle he is well rested during the day. If he sleeps any later than 4pm he's just wide awake at bed time. But he has his morning nap at 10.30 which he's often quite ready for, but then I try to get him down again about 3 and he's often not _that_ tired at this point. I think we're just in a tricky transition stage! I'm pleased you told me only 5-10% drop a nap this early. Stops me from rushing him into it :)


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## polaris

Wow that's a long stretch of sleep Noelle! I remember when Thomas dropped to one nap and finally started sleeping until later in the mornings (probably 6.30 or 7) and it was utter bliss and seemed like such a lie-in. He was having 3+ hours nap for the first month or thereabouts too!

Update here - Clara seems a lot better today, she was awake a bit last night coughing and I slept in her room but so far as I can remember the coughing settled down at 1.30ish and I don't remember her waking up again until 6.50 when we got up. She's gone to sleep really easily at bedtime for the past two nights too, self-settling quickly with no crying or even fussing. She's also cut back a bit on daytime sleep which is probably a good thing, she's now having 1 to 1.5 hours in the morning and about 1.5 hours in the afternoon. I think she might have been having too much daytime sleep before but I just really hated to wake her early from naps! I'm actually feeling quite hopeful that things might improve once she's finally over all her little illnesses!


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## Boo44

Oh yes I forgot! Wow Charlotte 14hrs! That is something Jack has never done since the day he was born!


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## Twister

Omg 14 hours that sounds like absolute HEAVEN. Well done Charlotte!


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## Radkat

Hi all - update... Last night was not so great. She had a later last nap due to us being out, but I didn't want her to skip it, so she went down around 4:30, up at 5pm. 7:15 bedtime, which was OK. Nursed earlier in the routine. Put her down and walked out, she was quiet for about a minute, then started crying. I left her for 5 minutes, calmed her with shush and pat, out again. Then she really got going, sounded really distressed, so I couldn't wait the 5 minutes. OH and I kinda got into it about that-he thinks I need to leave her the 5 minutes no matter what. Anyway, after I went in that time, calmed, left awake, she cried but it was more that whiny cry, which just means she's tired.

One wake up 45 minutes after I put her down, then asleep until 1am. Wouldn't settle, kept standing up, so I fed her at 1:45. Right to sleep. Up again 3:30 wouldn't settle. OH walked her at 415. She was asleep for maybe 10 minutes. Started it all over. I fed her at 5. She was calmer but still awake. Finally brought her to bed with us at 5:30. She slept until 6:30.

Any thoughts on adjustments to our plan, or stay the course? BTW she had 3x 30 minute naps yesterday. Thanks for any suggestions you might have.


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## bananaz

*Radkat *- It sounds like you're making progress, I would keep doing what you're doing. It can take some time to see results, so hang in there!

*Noelle* - Holy freaking cow, 14 hours?! Sooo jealous! Although I would probably be freaking out and calling for an ambulance if Elsie slept that long :haha:


My LO is having a really hard time going to sleep tonight. I spent 40 minutes patting her back but she just kept talking and fussing and trying to make me take her out. At one point she stood up and took both of my hands and placed them on either side of her waist, like "Come on, you idiot, do I really need to spell this out for you?!" :dohh: Finally I just gave up and left. It's now an hour past her bedtime and she still isn't asleep but she isn't fussing either so hopefully she'll be out soon.

On another note, her nap schedule continues to be all over the place. Usually she has a long morning nap (1.5-2 hours) and then sometimes I can also get her down for an afternoon catnap (30-45 minutes) but other days she refuses and ends up being awake 6+ hours before bed. I'd love for her to just have one long midday nap but there's no way she can stay up from 5am to 12pm, much less 1pm. What are other babies' schedules like at this age? Suggestions welcome!


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## stephie_corin

Bananaz, how are you going in the morning? Are you managing to get her to stay asleep longer? It sounds like she is transitioning to one nap?? I'm obviously no expert but I read that you should push the morning nap forward by 15 minutes every two days until it settles closer to noon and at 3.5 hours after waketime or around 3 PM (which ever occurs first) try a cat nap or some quiet time.

Radcat, I'm so sorry things were so bad. I agree though, give it at least a week so she can settle into the new routine.

Polaris that is great news! And well done on the self settling!

Noelle, amazing! I live in hope!

We weirdly had an amazing night last night after two of the worst ever. I saw a friend yesterday and she thought C had been in an accident as the rings around his eyes were so dark :( so I don't know if the good sleep was down to exhaustion but I'm hoping it continues. We had our usual 3-4 wakeups between 6-10 but between 10pm and 530am he only had 3 wakeups! I did two things differently:

1) I didn't feed to sleep for two of his naps. It was a bit of a fight but we managed! And he went down this morning for his first nap without feeding. We fed to sleep for the last nap and bed time. And 2) I did a dream feed at 10pm. I don't normally do this but he had been waking at 11 for a feed and I hoped it might stop that waking. It could be coincidence/exhaustion but his first wakeup wasn't until 1am!!!


----------



## angelwings7

Our daytime routine starts between 6 & 7am, then I feed him every 3-4 hours and put him down every 1.5 to 2 hours. His bedtime is about 5:30 6ish depending how l long his been up for as he usually wakes up early from his naps. He naps for 40mins 3 times a day but I usually resettle him with the first 2 so that he gets an extra 40mins, but for some reason his last nap he just won't resettle. Before his bedtime routine he usually up for 2-2.5 hours so he has playtime then bath, bottle and bed. He will then sleep until his next feed 3.5 to 4hours. Then back down again and he usually wakes up an hour before his next feed so I resettle him, but after his 2am feed it takes 1.5 to 2 hours lately to get him back to sleep its horrible plus he doesn't really drink much. I have started to try cut that feed out last night and see how long he would last he went back to sleep quickly for a few more hours then I fed him at 4;30am so that way we both got more sleep.


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## angelwings7

I also forgot to add that he sometimes wakes up 2 or more hours before his next feed and I can't get him back to sleep so it gets really frustrating and his feed times vary because of that. I rock him to sleep as there is no way that I could do the CIO its to heart breaking for me.


----------



## Boo44

stephie_corin said:


> Bananaz, how are you going in the morning? Are you managing to get her to stay asleep longer? It sounds like she is transitioning to one nap?? I'm obviously no expert but I read that you should push the morning nap forward by 15 minutes every two days until it settles closer to noon and at 3.5 hours after waketime or around 3 PM (which ever occurs first) try a cat nap or some quiet time.
> 
> Radcat, I'm so sorry things were so bad. I agree though, give it at least a week so she can settle into the new routine.
> 
> Polaris that is great news! And well done on the self settling!
> 
> Noelle, amazing! I live in hope!
> 
> We weirdly had an amazing night last night after two of the worst ever. I saw a friend yesterday and she thought C had been in an accident as the rings around his eyes were so dark :( so I don't know if the good sleep was down to exhaustion but I'm hoping it continues. We had our usual 3-4 wakeups between 6-10 but between 10pm and 530am he only had 3 wakeups! I did two things differently:
> 
> 1) I didn't feed to sleep for two of his naps. It was a bit of a fight but we managed! And he went down this morning for his first nap without feeding. We fed to sleep for the last nap and bed time. And 2) I did a dream feed at 10pm. I don't normally do this but he had been waking at 11 for a feed and I hoped it might stop that waking. It could be coincidence/exhaustion but his first wakeup wasn't until 1am!!!

When you say to 'push the morning nap forward' do you mean make it later? So if baby goes down usually at 10.30 every morning, then do 10.45 one day, then 11 etc until you reach 12?


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## stephie_corin

Hi Boo, yes that's what I mean :)

ETA - it might be bad advice, I have no personal experience, but it makes sense to me. I might even be tempted to make the transition more slowly and increase the first wake time by 15 mins every 4-5 days.


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## VikkiD

Hope everyone is well we have had a couple of bad night with wakings but I think it's to do with the fact that lo as learnt to crawl (finally he's been trying for ages) and also he can now sit up in his cot. Last night was better he woke a couple of times but settled himself


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## polaris

stephie_corin said:


> Hi Boo, yes that's what I mean :)
> 
> ETA - it might be bad advice, I have no personal experience, but it makes sense to me. I might even be tempted to make the transition more slowly and increase the first wake time by 15 mins every 4-5 days.

My experience with dropping to one nap was that it was not easy. The problem that I found with pushing the morning nap forward gradually was that it made the afternoon nap impossible to achieve, but there was still no way that he could make it through even to a very early bedtime. What worked for us was keeping the morning nap as early as possible and being very strict about waking him after 30 to 45 minutes, e.g. 9 to 9.30, and that allowed him to take a decent nap at about 1.30. We had to do that for months. I tried to drop him to one nap at almost 14 months because I wanted him on one nap for Xmas because we were going away. It was a disaster and he just became really overtired. Tried again about 6 or 8 weeks later and he was able to cope then. I didn't really do it gradually, just kept him up until about 11 a.m. and then let him nap as long as he wanted and gave him a super early bedtime. Then gradually moved naptime later until he was napping after lunch at about 12.30. We were having lunch at 11 a.m. for a while though!

ETA DS has never coped easily with nap transitions so not all babies would need such a gradual approach.


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## Noelle610

Totally agree Polaris - our situation seems to be happening exactly as you describe.


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## bananaz

polaris said:


> My experience with dropping to one nap was that it was not easy. The problem that I found with pushing the morning nap forward gradually was that it made the afternoon nap impossible to achieve, but there was still no way that he could make it through even to a very early bedtime. What worked for us was keeping the morning nap as early as possible and being very strict about waking him after 30 to 45 minutes, e.g. 9 to 9.30, and that allowed him to take a decent nap at about 1.30. We had to do that for months. I tried to drop him to one nap at almost 14 months because I wanted him on one nap for Xmas because we were going away. It was a disaster and he just became really overtired. Tried again about 6 or 8 weeks later and he was able to cope then. I didn't really do it gradually, just kept him up until about 11 a.m. and then let him nap as long as he wanted and gave him a super early bedtime. Then gradually moved naptime later until he was napping after lunch at about 12.30. We were having lunch at 11 a.m. for a while though!
> 
> ETA DS has never coped easily with nap transitions so not all babies would need such a gradual approach.

Thank you!! A morning catnap and then a longer afternoon nap is exactly what I was thinking of doing, so it's good to hear that it worked for you.


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## mellyboo

Jords is back to sleeping like crap was nice while the few days lasted i guess..

I no we prob need to do the CIO solution with her because she was doing so good on her new bed time and etc now it's all sorta back fired so now i have no idea what i'm doing she's doing super well with 2 naps a day.. although they have been pretty short again could be developmental or something..

last night she had so many bubba's she peed through her over night diaper it was the only way i got any sleep she never even went through 3oz in the night for a long while maybe she was hungry i dont no she had like 20 oz last night from 8-6 :S thats crazy.

pass few nights though i cant get myself back to sleep i had PND when she was first born i'm confident its not back i'm just having sleeping issues and its making me feel crappy during the day and down i might go back see my dr...


----------



## bananaz

stephie_corin said:


> Bananaz, how are you going in the morning? Are you managing to get her to stay asleep longer? It sounds like she is transitioning to one nap?? I'm obviously no expert but I read that you should push the morning nap forward by 15 minutes every two days until it settles closer to noon and at 3.5 hours after waketime or around 3 PM (which ever occurs first) try a cat nap or some quiet time.

She's still waking around 5:00-5:15am unfortunately, even after going to sleep an hour late last night! She doesn't actually cry so I've just been letting her yell until 6 the past couple mornings. Maybe one of these days she'll actually go back to sleep :rolleyes:

Pushing her awake time longer sounds like a good idea but I just don't think she's ready to be up for that long yet in the morning :( If she were waking up at 6 it might be a different story though.

Congrats on a good night and on not feeding to sleep!! Sounds like you guys are doing great :)


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## mrssunshine78

Our lo probably isn't as bad as some babies, but I'm exhausted, last night she woke at 3 and cried pretty much until 4, we put her in our bed and she slept til 530, the night before she slept through until 5, night before it was 430. I'm so tired, I have zero energy. Last week she seemed to be doing slightly better I was feeding her when she woke at 4 or 5 and she was going back off until 630ish. 

Anyway I guess it's nice to know we're not alone, just wondering how you guys cope??


----------



## Noelle610

mrssunshine78 said:


> Our lo probably isn't as bad as some babies, but I'm exhausted, last night she woke at 3 and cried pretty much until 4, we put her in our bed and she slept til 530, the night before she slept through until 5, night before it was 430. I'm so tired, I have zero energy. Last week she seemed to be doing slightly better I was feeding her when she woke at 4 or 5 and she was going back off until 630ish.
> 
> Anyway I guess it's nice to know we're not alone, just wondering how you guys cope??

What time does she go to bed hun? That early morning restlessness is often a sigh of overtired.

For coping: Sleep when she does (if she goes to bed at 7pm, you're in bed by 7:05pm!), get moderate exercise (walking/yoga are great), drink lots of water, take a vitamin and protein rich foods.


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## stephie_corin

I second everything Noelle says, plus try and limit processed foods. I eat heaps of fresh fruit and vegetables and its the only way I've been able to survive three months of hellish sleep!

Noelle, I didn't know that about early morning wakings, interesting!


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## stephie_corin

mellyboo said:


> Jords is back to sleeping like crap was nice while the few days lasted i guess..
> 
> I no we prob need to do the CIO solution with her because she was doing so good on her new bed time and etc now it's all sorta back fired so now i have no idea what i'm doing she's doing super well with 2 naps a day.. although they have been pretty short again could be developmental or something..
> 
> last night she had so many bubba's she peed through her over night diaper it was the only way i got any sleep she never even went through 3oz in the night for a long while maybe she was hungry i dont no she had like 20 oz last night from 8-6 :S thats crazy.
> 
> pass few nights though i cant get myself back to sleep i had PND when she was first born i'm confident its not back i'm just having sleeping issues and its making me feel crappy during the day and down i might go back see my dr...

Wow that is a lot of milk overnight, do you think she is growth spurting? Sorry you had such bad sleep. Definitely speak to someone if you are feeling down. (((Hugs)))


----------



## stephie_corin

bananaz said:


> She's still waking around 5:00-5:15am unfortunately, even after going to sleep an hour late last night! She doesn't actually cry so I've just been letting her yell until 6 the past couple mornings. Maybe one of these days she'll actually go back to sleep :rolleyes:
> 
> Pushing her awake time longer sounds like a good idea but I just don't think she's ready to be up for that long yet in the morning :( If she were waking up at 6 it might be a different story though.
> 
> Congrats on a good night and on not feeding to sleep!! Sounds like you guys are doing great :)

Thanks :) I'm hoping for another good night but naps were rubbish today.

Do you ever help her to sleep? Or would that contradict some of your other sleep strategies? If you were open to it, I wonder if you could rock her back to sleep - even for a week - and it might help change her natural wakeup. Again, I am probably the least experienced on this thread but I think instinctively that so much of sleep is routine and if you helped her immediately back to sleep she may eventually start sleeping through without your help? Who knows though!


----------



## bananaz

stephie_corin said:


> Thanks :) I'm hoping for another good night but naps were rubbish today.
> 
> Do you ever help her to sleep? Or would that contradict some of your other sleep strategies? If you were open to it, I wonder if you could rock her back to sleep - even for a week - and it might help change her natural wakeup. Again, I am probably the least experienced on this thread but I think instinctively that so much of sleep is routine and if you helped her immediately back to sleep she may eventually start sleeping through without your help? Who knows though!

I think you're spot-on, and actually that's what the expert advice I've read suggests too, but unfortunately I just haven't been able to get her to go back to sleep no matter what I try. It's like her brain is stuck in "on" mode the moment her eyes open! 

I do wonder if I should keep trying with that since at least I could keep her in a calm "restful" state between 5 and 6am so maybe that would be a step in the right direction, but honestly an hour is a really long time to stand there patting her not knowing if it's even helping. I guess I'm just lazy :blush:


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## Boo44

I'm fairly sure Jack could cope with me pushing his nap to nearer lunch time quite quickly. I just don't like going against professional advice if I'm doing it a bit early, so I'm holding off. Today has been a bit messed up, he slept 10.30-11 (woke as we were out) and then had a car cat nap at 1.30-2. I was in the car again at 4pm and thought he might nap as he's only had 50 mins all day. But he didn't and he's now playing happily. Wonder what on earth will happen tonight...!

Thanks Polaris for the advice - an early cat nap is a good way to do it as well, I'll remember that one!

Bananaz, I never ever can decide what to do with Jack when he wakes early (ie most days..!) I try and listen to his babbling to see if he has a dummy in (omg parenting makes you crazy!) and if he sounds like he's talking through his dummy then I don't go in. Because the only thing I can offer at this point is finding a dummy for him and leaving. I've no idea if I'm doing it right, and I can't explain why he may occasionally go back to sleep, but most times he won't. All my mummy friends IRL are also going through early wakings right now. It does help to know it seems to be almost universal!

Mellyboo - big hugs I hope you feel better soon x


----------



## mrssunshine78

Noelle610 said:


> mrssunshine78 said:
> 
> 
> Our lo probably isn't as bad as some babies, but I'm exhausted, last night she woke at 3 and cried pretty much until 4, we put her in our bed and she slept til 530, the night before she slept through until 5, night before it was 430. I'm so tired, I have zero energy. Last week she seemed to be doing slightly better I was feeding her when she woke at 4 or 5 and she was going back off until 630ish.
> 
> Anyway I guess it's nice to know we're not alone, just wondering how you guys cope??
> 
> What time does she go to bed hun? That early morning restlessness is often a sigh of overtired.
> 
> For coping: Sleep when she does (if she goes to bed at 7pm, you're in bed by 7:05pm!), get moderate exercise (walking/yoga are great), drink lots of water, take a vitamin and protein rich foods.Click to expand...

Thanks, she goes to bed between 7-730. I do go to bed early usually around 830, I definitely need to drink more water and eat better


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## Noelle610

mrssunshine78 said:


> Noelle610 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> mrssunshine78 said:
> 
> 
> Our lo probably isn't as bad as some babies, but I'm exhausted, last night she woke at 3 and cried pretty much until 4, we put her in our bed and she slept til 530, the night before she slept through until 5, night before it was 430. I'm so tired, I have zero energy. Last week she seemed to be doing slightly better I was feeding her when she woke at 4 or 5 and she was going back off until 630ish.
> 
> Anyway I guess it's nice to know we're not alone, just wondering how you guys cope??
> 
> What time does she go to bed hun? That early morning restlessness is often a sigh of overtired.
> 
> For coping: Sleep when she does (if she goes to bed at 7pm, you're in bed by 7:05pm!), get moderate exercise (walking/yoga are great), drink lots of water, take a vitamin and protein rich foods.Click to expand...
> 
> Thanks, she goes to bed between 7-730. I do go to bed early usually around 830, I definitely need to drink more water and eat betterClick to expand...

What time does she wake from her last nap? I try not to exceed 4 hours between that time and bedtime.


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## mrssunshine78

She usually wakes anytime between 315-4, so she's usually in bed less than 4 hours after last nap. She woke at 315 today and we've put her to bed at 7, hope every night that she'll sleep until 6


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## Radkat

Noelle610 said:


> stephie_corin said:
> 
> 
> https://docs.google.com/document/d/...cyas/mobilebasic?authkey=CPXE1bsO&pli=1&hl=en
> 
> Here is the link to the waketime chart. From what I understand, waketimes should increase as the day goes on but Noelle probably knows more about this! X
> 
> I love, love, love this chart! I know it makes some people anxious, but it's been the key to sleep magic for me.
> 
> The first wake time is usually the shortest. The middle one(s) can be stretched a bit - kids are least sensitive to that one. The time between last nap and bedtime is important. If it's too long, it can cause overtired.Click to expand...

I have a questions about this nap plan... My LO takes some really short naps. On a good day, she'll have 30 minute naps. So if she gets up at 6:30, first nap at 8:30, up by 9. Second nap at 11:15, up by 11:45. Third nap at 2:15, up at 2:45. So she should be in bed by 5:30? What if they are even shorter? Today has been an awful day for naps. 10-20 minutes. So should I really put her to bed at 5pm? I'm not even home from work yet. It's hard to know what I need to stick to and what can be a bit flexible. Her wakeups have been getting earlier. This morning she was pretty much up at 5am. I tried to settle her, but no dice. Even bringing her into bed didn't really help much. She was sort of calm from 5:45-6:15. I gave up at 6:30. 

Any suggestions would be appreciated.


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## easyrhumba

Okay I think I have officially made a sleep monster. 

I have pretty much always given in to him co sleeping with me half of the night because I work full time and I just dont have it in me to fight with him all night and then wake up at 5:30 to get ready for work. So I start him out in his crib and then when he wakes up I bring him to bed with me and he would sleep really well. He would wake up here and there but it was very easy to help him get back to sleep. 
Now my sweet little boy is not so little anymore and wakes up spins, rolls and kicks me all night long. I try and put him in his crib and he just cries and cries and cries. I used to swaddle him and he is just too strong now. He breaks free everytime and the last time I swaddled him he broke free and was all tied up in the blanket so Im not going to risk it again. He used to go down at 7:30 but he started waking up for the day at 4 every morning so I pushed it back to 8:30 which worked at first but now Im lucky if I can get him down before 10. He wakes up about an hour after he falls asleep and then again at 12:30, 2:30, 4:30 and needs to be out of bed by 6 or there is a mega melt down. 

Everyone I know has said by 6 months things get better with sleep, but Its just getting worse. I wish I would have never co slept with him! U+I have tried to let him cry but he just gets more and more angry. Im not sure what to do!


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## Boo44

By the way noelle what is WPB?!


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## seaweed eater

Hi Easy, welcome :hugs: a lot of us will testify to the fact that 6 months can actually be a really tough time for sleep! I'm sorry you are struggling. How is his sleep during the day? It sounds like he may be overtired. Even 8:30-6 is on the low end of sleep for that age, and 10-6 is almost certainly too little. I think one suggestion you are going to get here is to try a much earlier bedtime. (The 4 AM waking almost certainly wasn't caused by a too early bedtime.) But I would like to hear more about your daily routine, too.

Radkat, we are in a similar position where the chart wouldn't give us enough total WT to make it through the day. Stretching the WTs slightly works for us, but I know it can be a disaster for some babies. I would try to put in a late catnap, but make sure it's 30 min or shorter (probably shorter if your LO usually naps for only 10-20!) and don't compress the last WT too much either, so don't let it go much later than 4, say, for a 7 PM bedtime.

Hope to catch up on everyone else soon. Wishing you all regular days and restful nights :hugs:


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## Noelle610

You guys don't even need me anymore! I agree with seaweed on pretty much everything.


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## seaweed eater

Lol Noelle, who's the one whose LO slept 14 hours the other night? :winkwink:

We are having a situation over here. Munchkin is taking forever to settle because he instantly rolls onto his belly and then gets stuck and mad, and then we have to soothe him all over again. I don't know why this is making him so mad right now all of a sudden when he's been sleeping on his belly for a few weeks. But it's rough. Like every single time we put him down it takes over an hour, because he falls asleep, rolls, screams, x4-5.

He's also been acting very undertired at bedtime for the past three nights. He's napping in the car for five minutes around 5:25-5:30 but there's nothing I can do about that. I'm thinking we need a much, much longer wind down. We'll see. :shrug: He's nowhere near crawling but he's kind of acting like a baby who's learning to crawl, the same kind of hyperactive energy. Maybe it's the wonder week -- that's supposed to happen this week, right? :dohh:


----------



## stephie_corin

Radkat said:


> Noelle610 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> stephie_corin said:
> 
> 
> https://docs.google.com/document/d/...cyas/mobilebasic?authkey=CPXE1bsO&pli=1&hl=en
> 
> Here is the link to the waketime chart. From what I understand, waketimes should increase as the day goes on but Noelle probably knows more about this! X
> 
> I love, love, love this chart! I know it makes some people anxious, but it's been the key to sleep magic for me.
> 
> The first wake time is usually the shortest. The middle one(s) can be stretched a bit - kids are least sensitive to that one. The time between last nap and bedtime is important. If it's too long, it can cause overtired.Click to expand...
> 
> I have a questions about this nap plan... My LO takes some really short naps. On a good day, she'll have 30 minute naps. So if she gets up at 6:30, first nap at 8:30, up by 9. Second nap at 11:15, up by 11:45. Third nap at 2:15, up at 2:45. So she should be in bed by 5:30? What if they are even shorter? Today has been an awful day for naps. 10-20 minutes. So should I really put her to bed at 5pm? I'm not even home from work yet. It's hard to know what I need to stick to and what can be a bit flexible. Her wakeups have been getting earlier. This morning she was pretty much up at 5am. I tried to settle her, but no dice. Even bringing her into bed didn't really help much. She was sort of calm from 5:45-6:15. I gave up at 6:30.
> 
> Any suggestions would be appreciated.Click to expand...

I agree with SE. We tend to push out the waketimes a bit. For example, C was up at 515 am and now at 730 am is just going down for his first cat nap. I tend to aim for a 6pm bedtime even if the last nap finished at 230. I always try a small catnap in the afternoon but he never takes it.


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## bananaz

seaweed eater said:


> Lol Noelle, who's the one whose LO slept 14 hours the other night? :winkwink:
> 
> We are having a situation over here. Munchkin is taking forever to settle because he instantly rolls onto his belly and then gets stuck and mad, and then we have to soothe him all over again. I don't know why this is making him so mad right now all of a sudden when he's been sleeping on his belly for a few weeks. But it's rough. Like every single time we put him down it takes over an hour, because he falls asleep, rolls, screams, x4-5.
> 
> He's also been acting very undertired at bedtime for the past three nights. He's napping in the car for five minutes around 5:25-5:30 but there's nothing I can do about that. I'm thinking we need a much, much longer wind down. We'll see. :shrug: He's nowhere near crawling but he's kind of acting like a baby who's learning to crawl, the same kind of hyperactive energy. Maybe it's the wonder week -- that's supposed to happen this week, right? :dohh:


Sorry if you mentioned this already but have you tried putting him down on his belly to begin with? That way he wouldn't be startled when he wakes up that way.

A longer wind-down definitely sounds like a good idea, I know it can really help my LO when she's overstimulated and/or slightly undertired.


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## seaweed eater

Oh, I hadn't even thought of putting him down on his belly. Maybe I will try that. He HATES being on his belly but happens to sleep well that way. I think he'd have to be very sleepy in order to tolerate it at all. I'll try it sometime tonight if all seems to be well.


----------



## stephie_corin

Argh. As predicted - bad naps yesterday (one was only ten minutes!!) meant really bad sleep last night. He also woke at 930pm and his nappy had leaked so there he was, wide awake and kicking his chubby little legs on my bed having a grand old time while I stripped him out of his sleeping bag and sleep suit. I think this wake up might have affected things too.

I have a question about bed time routines. Ours is very simple. We do bath time, baby massage, pjs, book, nurse then bed. It takes about half an hour and bath time can be very splashy. Should I lengthen our bedtime routine and not do bath so close to bed? It's hard as he is in bed so early, I feel like any routine that requires us to be home even earlier will be quite tough. As it stands, I have to feed him and put him down for his cat naps in the house so we are very limited in our times for outings.


----------



## bananaz

seaweed eater said:


> Oh, I hadn't even thought of putting him down on his belly. Maybe I will try that. He HATES being on his belly but happens to sleep well that way. I think he'd have to be very sleepy in order to tolerate it at all. I'll try it sometime tonight if all seems to be well.

My LO hated being put on her belly before she could crawl too, but what I would do was put her in the crib asleep (or very close to it), gently roll her onto her belly and pat her back a little when she fussed. Much to my surprise, 9 times out of 10 it worked and she resettled no problem. Also, I think the fact that she stirred a little when I put her down helped her orient herself to the crib. Anyway, this solved the rolling issue for us, and after a while she started immediately flipping onto her belly by herself.


----------



## bananaz

stephie_corin said:


> Argh. As predicted - bad naps yesterday (one was only ten minutes!!) meant really bad sleep last night. He also woke at 930pm and his nappy had leaked so there he was, wide awake and kicking his chubby little legs on my bed having a grand old time while I stripped him out of his sleeping bag and sleep suit. I think this wake up might have affected things too.
> 
> I have a question about bed time routines. Ours is very simple. We do bath time, baby massage, pjs, book, nurse then bed. It takes about half an hour and bath time can be very splashy. Should I lengthen our bedtime routine and not do bath so close to bed? It's hard as he is in bed so early, I feel like any routine that requires us to be home even earlier will be quite tough. As it stands, I have to feed him and put him down for his cat naps in the house so we are very limited in our times for outings.

If bathtime is a stimulating activity for him then having more time between bath and bed is probably a good idea. Maybe you can add some quiet play time or make story time a little longer? My LO's bedtime routine is pretty much the same and whenever she seems wound up I will do the bath a bit earlier and read more books since that's usually calming for her.


----------



## seaweed eater

bananaz said:


> My LO hated being put on her belly before she could crawl too, but what I would do was put her in the crib asleep (or very close to it), gently roll her onto her belly and pat her back a little when she fussed. Much to my surprise, 9 times out of 10 it worked and she resettled no problem. Also, I think the fact that she stirred a little when I put her down helped her orient herself to the crib. Anyway, this solved the rolling issue for us, and after a while she started immediately flipping onto her belly by herself.

Perfect, thank you for that description. I was wondering how exactly I would get him onto his belly. I will definitely try that. :thumbup:


----------



## seaweed eater

Stephie, I know what you mean about its being hard to have a longer routine. Ours has been about 30 minutes on bath nights or 20 minutes without a bath. And then the past few nights when LO has fought bedtime I've been finding myself sitting on the floor with him in the dark, trying to be boring while waiting for him to decide he's ready to sleep (as he bounces up and down clapping his hands, of course). So I'm thinking our routine will involve more of that sort of thing. Reading books and then maybe just quiet dark playtime for 10 minutes.


----------



## stephie_corin

I'm so tired. He just woke from his first nap at 750am after 20 minutes from 730-750am. I feel like crying. Sorry for the moan just need to vent.

I can't figure out what in doing wrong. It's two steps backwards for every one forward at the moment.


----------



## seaweed eater

I'm sorry :hugs: sometimes it's nothing you are doing. Just keep giving him opportunities to learn the routine that is best for him. I totally know the feeling though :hugs: :hugs:


----------



## Boo44

Boo44 said:


> By the way noelle what is WPB?!

Must be a secret gang!!


----------



## stephie_corin

Boo44 said:


> Boo44 said:
> 
> 
> By the way noelle what is WPB?!
> 
> Must be a secret gang!!Click to expand...

Haha! I didn't see the context but I guess Way Past Bedtime?


----------



## polaris

We had another good night last night! She took a bit longer to get settled at bedtime and I ended up feeding her until she was half asleep but then she slept from 7.30 until 12, had a feed and then slept until 4, another feed and back to sleep until 7. I can't believe how much better she's sleeping all of a sudden. I'm not doing anything differently so she must be just growing up. We are definitely having more good nights than bad in the week now, well, last week was four good nights and three bad, but the three bad nights were when she was sick.

Seaweed - I agree with bananaz' suggestion about trying putting him down on his tummy. That worked really well with Clara at about that age and solved the rolling problem (for a few weeks until she started rolling onto her back and crying, LOL). I thought Clara would never settle on her tummy as she would just get up on hands and knees straight away but if I waited until she was very very sleepy and then popped her in cot on her tummy and gently patted her back and sort of gently pushed her down if she was trying to get up on hands and knees then she would usually just flop down and settle.

For those who are struggling with short naps - :hugs: I don't know what the answer is. I think very short naps are a bit of a nightmare to deal with. I think you do have to be flexible about the daily routine though and either stretch wake times so you can get through the day or else reduce wake-times and have an extra nap. With my oldest boy, stretching wake-times wouldn't have worked and he was on four naps for ages as a result. I think he was on four naps (with 2 hours wake time) until maybe 6.5 months.


----------



## polaris

Also re bedtime routines, poor Clara doesn't really have a consistent routine at all because I have to work around her older brother and the routine changes depending on whether OH is here or not and whether her brother had a nap that day or not (which changes the time that he needs to go to bed). So sometimes she has a bath with her brother (very stimulating with loads of splashing and hysterical laughter), sometimes she has a bath on her own (much more relaxing), sometimes she doesn't get a bath at all. Sometimes she goes straight up to bed after her bath, sometimes she has to play in her jumparoo for ten minutes while I get her brother sorted, sometimes she has her bath really early and doesn't go up to bed until an hour later. Obviously it would be better if I could be more consistent but honestly it just isn't possible!


----------



## mellyboo

So she woke up twice last night not bad :) hopefully were back on track again!


----------



## bananaz

*polaris* - I'm so glad to hear the good nights are continuing. Hopefully she made some kind of developmental leap and is settling into a better pattern now.

*stephie* - :hugs: Ugh, I hate that feeling. You're probably not doing anything wrong though, there's only so much you can do to control these things as much as we like to think otherwise!

*mellyboo* - Glad you had a good night :)


So it's almost 5:45 and LO is still asleep!! :happydance: Even with a *#$ing jay calling as loudly as it can outside her window. I've been up since 4:55 of course, but I went to bed early so it's not too bad.


----------



## stephie_corin

Bananaz, amazing!!! What did you do different!?

Melly, great news :) 

We are about to do bath and bed, wishing everyone a great night! X


----------



## bananaz

stephie_corin said:


> Bananaz, amazing!!! What did you do different!?
> 
> Melly, great news :)
> 
> We are about to do bath and bed, wishing everyone a great night! X

Well it could be a coincidence but the past couple mornings I just ignored her when she got up at 5. She wasn't crying though, just wandering around her crib and yelling intermittently. It's 6:15 now and she's still asleep! I hope this isn't a fluke...

Hope you have a good night :flower:


----------



## Noelle610

Bananaz yay!


----------



## mrssunshine78

bananaz said:


> stephie_corin said:
> 
> 
> Bananaz, amazing!!! What did you do different!?
> 
> Melly, great news :)
> 
> We are about to do bath and bed, wishing everyone a great night! X
> 
> Well it could be a coincidence but the past couple mornings I just ignored her when she got up at 5. She wasn't crying though, just wandering around her crib and yelling intermittently. It's 6:15 now and she's still asleep! I hope this isn't a fluke...
> 
> Hope you have a good night :flower:Click to expand...


Wow amazing!!!! I live in hope :haha:


----------



## bananaz

mrssunshine78 said:


> Wow amazing!!!! I live in hope :haha:

Haha, yeah she slept until 6:30, making it her best night ever! She seems so much happier now too.

Note to self: Next time take Noelle's sleep advice right away rather than just trying it for a night and giving up :blush:


----------



## seaweed eater

I'm so glad to read about all the good nights/mornings!! :happydance:

Our night was a disaster. I can't even talk about it. If it wasn't a one-off I'm not sure what I'm going to do. Putting him down on his tummy failed, but so did everything else, so it wasn't a fair test and I'll try again some other time.

Question though -- if LO has missed a LOT of sleep during the night, should I change anything about the daytime routine? I'm thinking not really...right?


----------



## Noelle610

seaweed eater said:


> I'm so glad to read about all the good nights/mornings!! :happydance:
> 
> Our night was a disaster. I can't even talk about it. If it wasn't a one-off I'm not sure what I'm going to do. Putting him down on his tummy failed, but so did everything else, so it wasn't a fair test and I'll try again some other time.
> 
> Question though -- if LO has missed a LOT of sleep during the night, should I change anything about the daytime routine? I'm thinking not really...right?

:hugs:

I'd reduce wake times slightly to prevent overtired-ness.


----------



## seaweed eater

Thanks Noelle. Does that mean letting him nap longer? Or possibly an extra nap? I know it's presumptuous to assume he'll nap for too long ;) but we need to drive DH to work today so he'll be sleeping in the car anyway and can go for pretty long that way.


----------



## stephie_corin

seaweed eater said:


> I'm so glad to read about all the good nights/mornings!! :happydance:
> 
> Our night was a disaster. I can't even talk about it. If it wasn't a one-off I'm not sure what I'm going to do. Putting him down on his tummy failed, but so did everything else, so it wasn't a fair test and I'll try again some other time.
> 
> Question though -- if LO has missed a LOT of sleep during the night, should I change anything about the daytime routine? I'm thinking not really...right?

So sorry to hear SE. Be extra kind to yourself today xxx


----------



## stephie_corin

- SE, a friend of mine was having similar problems with frequent night wakings when her LO was rolling in his sleep and she had some luck getting him to nap on his side which seemed to help the night sleep as he didn't freak out when he rolled in his sleep.


----------



## seaweed eater

Thanks Stephie. I think that's right. Usually when he sleeps happily on his tummy it's after he's fallen asleep on his side initially and then rolled later.

He calmed down when I shh/patted him on his tummy for approximately a century, but he wouldn't fall asleep there. Still, I think there is promise, because I would never have imagined he would be calmed that way.


----------



## mellyboo

Hang in there Seaweed * hugeee hugs**!!


----------



## polaris

Seaweed, so sorry to hear you had such a dreadful night. If Clara has slept very badly I do tend to let her catch up a little bit by napping longer. But I don't know if that's the right or wrong thing to do. I tend to put her down earlier though and then still get her up at the same time as usual rather than letting her nap later than usual if that makes sense.

Bananaz, yay for 6.30 a.m. wake up!!


----------



## seaweed eater

It was teething!!!!!!!!! OMG you guys. LO slept only 6 hours last night. I slept 3, in three different chunks. I can feel a tooth today. That means that the madness is likely to end soon, right?! Please say yes!


----------



## bananaz

seaweed eater said:


> It was teething!!!!!!!!! OMG you guys. LO slept only 6 hours last night. I slept 3, in three different chunks. I can feel a tooth today. That means that the madness is likely to end soon, right?! Please say it's so!

Yay, that's great news! I don't know how you feel about medication but when my LO has a tooth cutting I usually give her some ibuprofen before bed and it makes a big difference for her sleep.


----------



## polaris

Usually the intense pain dies down once the tooth breaks through the gum. Fingers crossed he will sleep really well tonight to make up for last night. Did you give painkillers at all? I actually hate using them (I don't like taking them myself either) but I do usually give Nurofen if Clara is finding it unusually difficult to settle to sleep. It's hard to call though because I don't like the idea of giving painkillers on a very regular basis. Clara has definitely had more than Thomas ever did but she just seems much more bothered by teething and she has also been ill much more often than he was in his first year.


----------



## Shadowy Lady

SW - I would give her something to sooth the pain tonight, like baby Advil. When Sofia was cutting her first one (last week) she was fussier during the day and I could see the white underneath. So I just gave her the Advil and her sleep didn't really change much.

Btw guys, I'm still reading this thread even though my LO sttn. I figured I can help someone out but you guys are all experts now :D


----------



## seaweed eater

We gave him some acetaminophen a little after bedtime and he did have a stretch of a few hours of sleep. Will definitely give something tonight. Acetaminophen has helped him a lot with colds so far but it seems like ibuprofen is the painkiller of choice for teething. Is that right? Maybe we'll pick some up today.


----------



## seaweed eater

BTW Shadowy (hi :wave:) I'm glad to hear Sofia's sleep wasn't affected. Any signs of a second tooth yet?


----------



## polaris

Yeah I think ibuprofen is better for teeth. Because it is anti-inflammatory as well as a pain-killer.


----------



## Noelle610

Iburprofin is definitely best for teething!

Every tooth has been different for us in terms of sleep disruption.


----------



## Shadowy Lady

SW - no just the first one is 1/3 out, lol! The second one is close though i feel how hard her gum is. Hope you have a better night tonight


----------



## polaris

Shadowy Lady said:


> SW - no just the first one is 1/3 out, lol! The second one is close though i feel how hard her gum is. Hope you have a better night tonight

Clara is exactly the same, Shadowy! She looks very funny with just one tooth peg sticking up! I think the one next to it is very close though, I can see the outline of it under the gum now.


----------



## Noelle610

Shadowy Lady said:


> SW - no just the first one is 1/3 out, lol! The second one is close though i feel how hard her gum is. Hope you have a better night tonight

Love the new avatar! You two are so pretty!


----------



## NotNic

Hi everyone. I have my first day back at work tomorrow and I'm praying for a good night. Last few days have ended up with miraculously late (for us!) wake ups of 6.40 but we have been a bit disturbed in the night with pain cry outs. It looks like we may be getting another tooth on the bottom. On Sunday it looked like his gums were bleeding inside where the eye tooth would be and today it's white on the gum. We're also on three days straight of one nap. I spoke to his nursery and they are happy to do 'on demand' naps which pleases me a lot. Naps have always been unpredictable and it would be a nightmare if he had structured nap times. Also he isn't truly ready for just one nap but will get angry if pushed into taking two. 

On previous post we give nurofen A LOT. He really suffers with teething causing earaches etc. I feel its kinder (as long as you brush teeth) to them not to suffer and have regular doses


----------



## Noelle610

Notnic, good luck at work! I've really enjoyed being a working mama most days. Fingers crossed for a good night for you both. 

Sounds like your daycare is flexible - so nice.


----------



## Radkat

Hi all - Looks like teething has gotten a few of us and others are having good nights. 

My update... LO had a pretty good night last night. I'm sticking to nursing earlier in the routine and putting her down awake. I tried to get her drowsy by shush and pat, but that just wasn't happening last night. I think she knew what was coming so she was trying to be SUPER awake. So I left her in there. Cried, but not the awful kind for a few minutes. I did a check at 5 min, settled her so she was on her belly chewing on her cloth (her comfort object), left again. More crying that got kinda bad and I'm a wimp, so I went back in after about 3-4 minutes. Settled her again and stayed in the room but so she couldn't see me. Once she was settled, I left. She watched me leave, but only moaned for a minute and was out until 1:30. Nursed and back to sleep until 4:30 (couldn't believe it). Nursed, asleep for about 20 minutes. Then on and off until 5:45 when I brought her into bed. She was quiet but I don't know that she slept much. Up at 6:30. I went to work late today, because I have to work late:growlmad:, so we went on a walk at first nap time. Slept 45 minutes. OH put her down in her cosleeper for her second nap (usually it's in the swing) and she slept for an hour! So excited. I tried to put her down for her third nap when I went home for lunch, but she was wide awake when I left. I had to go back to work so I'm not sure what happened. OH is nervous about putting her down for bedtime bc I usually do it. He said he'll try, so we'll see what happens. 

Thanks for the advice. It seems like it's helping. :flower: But I'm sure I'll be on here again to ask questions when something else comes up!


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## Noelle610

Red, sounds like progress!!


----------



## seaweed eater

Really glad to hear things are progressing, Radkat! :happydance:


----------



## stephie_corin

Just checking in, we had an average night. 3 wakeups before 10pm and 5 between 10-545. He actually slept for one three hour stretch which is massive progress if I'm going to be honest, so actually it was a good night!

I have a question: I have honest to goodness thought he was teething on at least 5 occasions, but no tooth appeared (it was just really bad sleep). Is it obvious when they are cutting a tooth? What are the signs? Do you give pain relief at bedtime or when they wake in the night? 

Hugs xxx


----------



## mrssunshine78

You guys certainty seem to know a lot about sleep, it's very encouraging to see that some of your babies are doing much better

This morning Jasmine woke at 445, I feel sick and have a massive headache. Just wondering if anyone has any advice re nap times, do they need to be about the same time every day? Should I limit her naps? I usually don't let her nap until 930, do you think that's too late?

It's making me feel so down, I'm on the verge of tears this morning :cry:


----------



## mrssunshine78

stephie_corin said:


> Just checking in, we had an average night. 3 wakeups before 10pm and 5 between 10-545. He actually slept for one three hour stretch which is massive progress if I'm going to be honest, so actually it was a good night!
> 
> I have a question: I have honest to goodness thought he was teething on at least 5 occasions, but no tooth appeared (it was just really bad sleep). Is it obvious when they are cutting a tooth? What are the signs? Do you give pain relief at bedtime or when they wake in the night?
> 
> Hugs xxx

My lo seemed to be teething for 3 months before she cut a tooth, I don't think it's always that obvious, apparently their teeth move about in their gums and can cause pain. We don't give pain relieve before bed unless she's been really grumpy, we give it through the night if she won't settle


----------



## stephie_corin

mrssunshine78 said:


> You guys certainty seem to know a lot about sleep, it's very encouraging to see that some of your babies are doing much better
> 
> This morning Jasmine woke at 445, I feel sick and have a massive headache. Just wondering if anyone has any advice re nap times, do they need to be about the same time every day? Should I limit her naps? I usually don't let her nap until 930, do you think that's too late?
> 
> It's making me feel so down, I'm on the verge of tears this morning :cry:

((((Hugs)))) I know that 'I'm going to cry I'm so tired' feeling. It's horrible. Sorry you are having such a bad time. Rather than go by set times, you might find going by waketimes a bit easier (so, first nap might be 2 hours after waking) etc., I find over time the naps tend to settle at roughly the same time anyway.


----------



## NotNic

Thanks Noelle. I'm mostly looking forward to it and I'm really happy with my choice. We had tons of forms to fill out with his preferences and we had two meetings to talk through things, so I know he's in good hands. Finlay was pretty good last night. He woke at 4am. I got him back to sleep quite easily and he went through to 6.10am. I was in the shower though, but he only squealed for a few mins and by the time I was out he was standing quietly. He was very keen to go to the nursery worker this morning which helps a lot. I'm hoping he stays happy with the handover. Much nicer if there's no tears on either side!


----------



## NotNic

Stephie F started teething at 10 weeks. His first teeth (because two arrived at once) finally broke through at 7.5mths. He gets very red cheeks (like Noddy!) when his hurt. He puts his hands in his mouth, tugs his ears and his cry becomes a painful wail. His reaction is a bit extreme though. He's inherited my tough gums. Apparently I was a teething nightmare! If you want to try w/o pain relief I recommend cold, wet flannels for baby to suck on, cold cucumber pieces, hard baby biscuits at snack times and teething rings. We have the type you can freeze, but Finlay doesn't like them. They are too rigid for him to chew on. Also the dose in baby painkillers is deliberately lower than the 'safe' levels. My dr advised me they are fine for regular use.


----------



## stephie_corin

NotNic said:


> Stephie F started teething at 10 weeks. His first teeth (because two arrived at once) finally broke through at 7.5mths. He gets very red cheeks (like Noddy!) when his hurt. He puts his hands in his mouth, tugs his ears and his cry becomes a painful wail. His reaction is a bit extreme though. He's inherited my tough gums. Apparently I was a teething nightmare! If you want to try w/o pain relief I recommend cold, wet flannels for baby to suck on, cold cucumber pieces, hard baby biscuits at snack times and teething rings. We have the type you can freeze, but Finlay doesn't like them. They are too rigid for him to chew on. Also the dose in baby painkillers is deliberately lower than the 'safe' levels. My dr advised me they are fine for regular use.

Thanks NN! I really would prefer to only give him pain relief if he is in serious pain so your tips are great! I'm sure I can see tiny bits of white on the top of his gum but they've been there for about a month and nothing's pushed through yet! I swear we've been saying he has been teething since about three months! Ha! Thanks again xxx


----------



## Boo44

Aww Stephie big hugs xx teething is a nightmare. Jack is like Finlay (again!!) in that he started teething early but no tooth appeared until two came at once when he was 7.5 months. Then when he was 9 months he got 5 in the space of two weeks! Was nightmare

I think there's something about these early mornings at the mo! Last two days we've heard jack at 5.45 which is soooo early for him! I actually went to give him dummy and he went until 7.45. Really I'd rather skip the early but and just get up at 6.30! Hope it's not a new 'thing'...

Notnic - hun good luck at work. Well done for successfully getting up out and doing the nursery drop off for the first day! X


----------



## polaris

Notnic - good luck with the return to work, hope all goes smoothly.

We had another good night here, only two wakings for feeds and she slept until 7.15 a.m. However my 3 year old was awake 3 or 4 times which is highly unusual for him. He's in the middle of dropping his nap and it's a bit of a nightmare! I really shouldn't be posting about this here - make you all feel completely hopeless that you will be still stressing about sleep in three years time!!


----------



## stephie_corin

Sorry to be a thread hog today but I have an exciting new development. Yesterday and today I managed to rock C back to sleep for his middle nap, so assuming I continue to do this, he would have 2 x 30 mins cat naps around 8 and 3 and a 1-1.5 hour sleep at 11.30. Does this sound like a good, age appropriate nap schedule or should I work on trying to establish 2 naps.

Only downside is he is currently asleep on me and I need to do a wee and have a drink!

Polaris, glad one of yours is sleeping! I hope your boy sleeps better tonight xxx


----------



## polaris

Stephie, DS was taking three naps until about 8 months I think. According to Healthy Sleep Habits Happy Child some babies need three naps up until 9 months. I think two short naps and one longer nap sounds perfect for the moment.


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## Noelle610

Stephanie, you're not a post hog! Polaris is right - 3 naps are fine up to 9 months and probably even longer for some kids. My friend's little girl had 3 naps until 11 months and is about to drop to 1 at just 14 months... So sometimes they grow/develop quickly!


----------



## stephie_corin

Thanks Noelle and Polaris! We'll aim for a cat nap then this afternoon and tonight he is, of course, going to have perfect sleep!! Ha! X


----------



## Noelle610

Polaris, I can't imagine having two mostly down to the sleep thing. Bless you! 

Boo, Charlie has been waking early recently as well. It's odd because she's kind of moaning like she's not really awake, but not really settled either. I give her a dummy as well and sometimes it helps. Not sure what is going on, but I enjoy putting everything down to teething :haha:


----------



## mrssunshine78

My lo had 3 naps up until she was about 9.5 months and my friends little boy was about the same


----------



## stephie_corin

Thanks Sunshine. My main concern is too much daytime sleep making night sleep worse... But I think we will run with it and see how it goes!


----------



## Noelle610

Stephanie, how much daytime sleep is she getting overall? I think 3 hours or so is appropriate.


----------



## stephie_corin

Noelle610 said:


> Stephanie, how much daytime sleep is she getting overall? I think 3 hours or so is appropriate.

Hi Noelle, normally he has 3 x 30 minute naps so 1.5 in total. With this new long nap day sleep is around three hours. He has about 11.5 at night (not counting night wakings). Xxx


----------



## mrsbeano

Boo44 said:


> Aww Stephie big hugs xx teething is a nightmare. Jack is like Finlay (again!!) in that he started teething early but no tooth appeared until two came at once when he was 7.5 months. Then when he was 9 months he got 5 in the space of two weeks! Was nightmare
> 
> I think there's something about these early mornings at the mo! Last two days we've heard jack at 5.45 which is soooo early for him! I actually went to give him dummy and he went until 7.45. Really I'd rather skip the early but and just get up at 6.30! Hope it's not a new 'thing'...
> 
> Notnic - hun good luck at work. Well done for successfully getting up out and doing the nursery drop off for the first day! X

We've had a bit of the early mornings too! But strangely, he doesn't want to be awake at all. This morning we just ignored him as we would for a night waking and after 15 minutes he went back to sleep. His room is pitch black. 

I think that his natural body clock wants to be a 6 - 6 sleeper but we encourage more of a 7.30-7.30 sleeper because we don't function well from 6am! We all know that the kids usually win these battles though.


----------



## mrssunshine78

stephie_corin said:


> Thanks Sunshine. My main concern is too much daytime sleep making night sleep worse... But I think we will run with it and see how it goes!

I understand that concern!!


----------



## mellyboo

Jordyn woke up 3 times last night went to bed at 8 and its 930 and she's not awake yet so weird


----------



## seaweed eater

Sorry about the early wakings. :hugs: I hope all the early wakers start sleeping in!

Polaris, I'm sooo glad to hear things are going better with Clara :hugs: I hope Thomas starts doing better without that nap soon. This has been a long transition for him, hasn't it? At least it's the last one, right?

Melly, hope the rest of your night goes well!

NotNic, good luck at work :hugs: I hope the transition continues to go well for F!

Stephie, the naps sound great if they are working for you. I think you'll know right away if it's too much daytime sleep. Most likely what will happen when he's ready to drop to two naps is he'll start either fighting the third one or fighting bedtime. Of course some babies don't do the logical thing, but mine is one who generally needs routine for his sleep patterns, and even he was pretty clear about dropping the nap.

Regarding teething, it seems like some babies make it clear when a tooth is about to erupt, but ours didn't. We've had a million false alarms, he's pulled at his ears for months, his gums have been swollen for months, he's always chewed on everything, he even went through three weeks of loose stools a couple months ago, and everyone from daycare to my mom to our doctor has told us the first one was on its way when it wasn't. And of course his sleep is pretty variable in any case so there was no telling from that. I was just telling someone yesterday an hour before I discovered the tooth that teething has become a joke for DH and me -- like when he has a bad night we say "I bet it's teething, ha ha." I was honestly shocked that it really was this time.

Speaking of which, our night was MUCH better!! :happydance: A bit short but only 2 brief wakings. I will soooo take it. Today was the day we were planning to reevaluate starting sleep training again, but I think we'll wait a few more days to get a baseline that's not disrupted by teething pain (and to make sure that's not a factor before we start something new).


----------



## Noelle610

Great news seaweed!


----------



## stephie_corin

I am apologising again, and profusely, for posting so much about me, me, ME on this thread today.

But, I have one more quick question about naps. So far Cs sleep tonight has been the same as if he had his usual three 30 min naps. For those who missed my earlier post, I have extended his middle nap and it's been 1.5-2 hours yesterday and today (with am and pm nap being 30 mins). The only result (so far) seems to be a later bedtime.

I have a great DH but he works long hours and we are expats so I have no family whatsoever to help. This means I look after Culver pretty much 24/7, his whole 6.5 months of life. I love him. We all love our LOs, I know! But mamma is tired!

Is there a good developmental reason why he should take a long nap instead of a cat nap at midday? Because to be perfectly honest, 6pm bedtime is easier for me than a 7pm bedtime, especially if he is having the same number of night wakings and same early waking in the morning. If it's better for him I will rock him to sleep and hold him as long as he needs, but if there is no benefit then (selfishly) I may just let him cat nap and aim for earlier bedtime.

In the same vein, how long should I stick to the extended nap routine to be able to judge if it is improving night sleep? Sorry that's two questions!

Sorry for the essay!!!


----------



## Noelle610

stephie_corin said:


> I am apologising again, and profusely, for posting so much about me, me, ME on this thread today.
> 
> But, I have one more quick question about naps. So far Cs sleep tonight has been the same as if he had his usual three 30 min naps. For those who missed my earlier post, I have extended his middle nap and it's been 1.5-2 hours yesterday and today (with am and pm nap being 30 mins). The only result (so far) seems to be a later bedtime.
> 
> I have a great DH but he works long hours and we are expats so I have no family whatsoever to help. This means I look after Culver pretty much 24/7, his whole 6.5 months of life. I love him. We all love our LOs, I know! But mamma is tired!
> 
> Is there a good developmental reason why he should take a long nap instead of a cat nap at midday? Because to be perfectly honest, 6pm bedtime is easier for me than a 7pm bedtime, especially if he is having the same number of night wakings and same early waking in the morning. If it's better for him I will rock him to sleep and hold him as long as he needs, but if there is no benefit then (selfishly) I may just let him cat nap and aim for earlier bedtime.
> 
> In the same vein, how long should I stick to the extended nap routine to be able to judge if it is improving night sleep? Sorry that's two questions!
> 
> Sorry for the essay!!!

1st, post away. This thread originated as a totally self-indulgent rant by yours truly! It's good that others are actually getting something out of it.

There is no reason you can't do three catnaps and an early bedtime if that's what you prefer. As long as you respect appropriate wake times, he'll be fine. It all evens out. It's common for good nappers to need less sleep at night and vice versa.


----------



## stephie_corin

Thanks Noelle. I so appreciate all the advice and support I get on this thread from you and others. 6 babies were born to family and friends within weeks of Cs birth and he is the only one not sleeping through the night, and not only not sleeping through the night but waking every hour! I'm not glad others are as sleep deprived as me but it is nice to know others are going through/have been through the same thing. Makes me feel less crazy and like I'm failing parenting 101.
Xxx


----------



## Sunnie1984

Gah....

WW37 kicks butt
Stomach flu for the entire household TWICE in three weeks is worse
Sitting up in cot in sleep is annoying
Standing unaided is YAY but also affecting sleep
Naps are too long and causing late bedtime and early waking, probably night wakings too
Hubby away lots, grrrr


Stephie if you want C to sleep longer for his naps you could look at beginning to extend wake times very slowly (will means transition to two naps but would keep the early bedtime - this is what we did - as per the baby whisperer), so he gets longer naps. He's at the age my LO began to respond to this and dropped to two naps. Ps where are you n expat? 

Everyone else, I have been reading, sorry to see new faces here (because your not getting sleep - not be use I'm anti social!) and sorry to see some problems with the longstanding members! 

Bananaz just realised E looks remarkably similar to my DD, very beautiful photo. 

X


----------



## Noelle610

stephie_corin said:


> Thanks Noelle. I so appreciate all the advice and support I get on this thread from you and others. 6 babies were born to family and friends within weeks of Cs birth and he is the only one not sleeping through the night, and not only not sleeping through the night but waking every hour! I'm not glad others are as sleep deprived as me but it is nice to know others are going through/have been through the same thing. Makes me feel less crazy and like I'm failing parenting 101.
> Xxx

I feel like moms of "bad" sleepers are made to feel it's some failing on their part. Sure, we sometimes are responsible for bad habits, but it's largely down to personality. Most parents with babies that STTN simply got lucky. 

Try not to compare, though I know it's hard. My DH and I were just talking about this this morning. Our baby used to be a shit sleeper and now she's great. Her daycare buddy was a great sleeper for the first 6 months and now sleeps like crap. I think I'd prefer it our way! A good sleeper early on is not a guarantee of things to come!


----------



## Noelle610

Sunnie that sounds awful! :hugs: mama


----------



## Boo44

Ok I think I'm going to cry!

We are officially having the worst bedtime we have had since the day he was born!

All was fine and normal, he had his 9oz bottle got his wind up, had his song time and then down to bed as usual. Usually will self settle with either not a single peep or a teeny bit of fussing

Tonight as soon as I walked out the room he started to scream. Left him for 5 mins but ear-piercing awful scream like in pain. So went back in to settle. Repeat over and over. Has now been screaming for 45 mins. Wtf?!?! I actually have no idea what to do! He screams as soon as we walk out. 

The only thing I can think is he was fussy at my friend's today. I wondered if he was in pain then so gave calpol. Have just given ibuprofen now also. 

Ohh I'm so sad about this. I've noticed him crying when I leave the room for naps as well recently. But today he self settled for nap fine. And last night for bed not a peep. It's so random...


----------



## Noelle610

Oh Boo so sorry! Give in 30 minutes or so and see if the ibuprofin works.

We went through a phase with Charlie where she would scream when we left the room at bedtime. She'd throw her pacifier and lovey on the floor. It was so frustrating! Like Jack, she had always been easy at bedtime. It was taking 45 minutes - 1 hour to get her down. It passed quickly... I think it was just a phase.


----------



## Shadowy Lady

eeeek Seaweed remember how I told you to give your LO Advil for teething before bed? Well I forgot to do it myself even though I knew Sofia's second tooth was on the way :/ So she woke up at 3:00 am in pain. I went in and gave her the Advil but it took her till 4 am to go back to sleep....

Damn I should take my own advice!!! Can't wait for this second tooth to be out.

Boo - so sorry to hear you had to hear Jack crying so much! Hope it passes soon. I don't have the stomach to hear Sofia cry at all since she hasn't cried before bed in so long.

Sunnie - awwww so sorry about the stomach bug,... I found sitting in sleep disturbed sleep for us too. But it only took 2 nights so hope it passes soon for you too.


----------



## Boo44

I'm a bit worried its separation anxiety now :( Today I left him for 2 hrs at my SIL's as a sort of 'taster' for next week. He was absolutely fine. He doesn't have separation anxiety that I've noticed really. But tonight this was definitely as soon as we walked away the screaming would start...

OH has gotten him to sleep now by standing in sight and shhhhing. But I'm feeling awful because I like him to self settle. 

Noelle what did you do to help Charlotte during that stage? As with everything, I'm panicked now that this will be his new normal :(


----------



## Noelle610

Boo, I hear you - I'm a worrier too! 

I didn't really do anything different. I'd give her 5 or 10 minutes to fuss to see if she'd put herself to sleep and if not, I'd lay her down, give her her pacifier and her little blankie, say goodnight and walk out. It started to get really frustrating because I value my evenings and like to go to bed early, but I was spending so much time soothing her. I think it lasted 2 weeks. 

:hugs:


----------



## Boo44

Ok 2 weeks. I'll prepare myself...

Did she sleep ok once she was off?

I know! Was a shock, we have had the same routine for months on end and so OH had our tea ready and we both ended up eating cold food


----------



## Noelle610

She did! She slept through the night without a peep after she finally went down.


----------



## NotNic

Boo, Jack and Finlay are so similar it's scary. I'd swear they are virtual twins!! As soon as Finlay learnt to crawl he mastered standing up very quickly. We then had about 2 weeks of rubbish bedtimes. He would stand and scream. We never had a problem before with bed times. We just kept laying him down, leaving the room and going back in as the cries got loud. It was knackering but each night it got better. We just stayed consistent in not going in too soon and making sure he didn't get too much attention. Knowing i was going back to work made me a bit tougher with clingy-ness. I tried my best to be firm but it was tough. It also got much better once he learnt how to sit back down again. Not sure if that's what's happening with Jack but we found lots of practice in the day helps. Now he calls out and if we don't go to him immediately he often sits down and entertains himself.

Thanks for your work well wishes! Today was alright for both of us. Finlay had 3, 30-45min naps but needed reassuring. Twice he fell asleep on the key workers but was put to bed and didn't disturb. He enjoyed playing, ate well (even had seconds) and looked shattered when we picked him up! Fingers crossed for a good night! xx


----------



## polaris

Noelle610 said:


> I feel like moms of "bad" sleepers are made to feel it's some failing on their part. Sure, we sometimes are responsible for bad habits, but it's largely down to personality. Most parents with babies that STTN simply got lucky.
> 
> Try not to compare, though I know it's hard. My DH and I were just talking about this this morning. Our baby used to be a shit sleeper and now she's great. Her daycare buddy was a great sleeper for the first 6 months and now sleeps like crap. I think I'd prefer it our way! A good sleeper early on is not a guarantee of things to come!

Well, I have had a shit sleeper who gradually became a good sleeper (DS) and an initially good sleeper who gradually became a shit sleeper (DD). And I can tell you, the first way is easier psychologically! At least that way you feel like you are eventually managing to "fix" the problem and get your LO sleeping properly, you feel like it's all paying off. Whereas when you have a good sleeper who turns bad you just feel like you must be doing something wrong!

I think our run of good nights is due to be broken tonight, she's been awake a couple of times already and it's only 11 p.m., she's currently moaning a bit but not properly awake. I'm pretty sure it is teething though. Her bottom gums are definitely sore because she wouldn't let me touch them this evening and I can see the tooth clearly under the gum. She's just had Nurofen half an hour ago so hopefully that might settle her a bit!


----------



## Noelle610

Good point Polaris! Hope tonight isn't so bad for you. We've sometimes had multiple wakings early on only to get a nice long stretch after midnight.

I'm convinced our babies have their own forum. Bedtime has been like a dream recently, but Boo, Charlie is really fighting it tonight!


----------



## bananaz

polaris said:


> Well, I have had a shit sleeper who gradually became a good sleeper (DS) and an initially good sleeper who gradually became a shit sleeper (DD). And I can tell you, the first way is easier psychologically! At least that way you feel like you are eventually managing to "fix" the problem and get your LO sleeping properly, you feel like it's all paying off. Whereas when you have a good sleeper who turns bad you just feel like you must be doing something wrong!
> 
> I think our run of good nights is due to be broken tonight, she's been awake a couple of times already and it's only 11 p.m., she's currently moaning a bit but not properly awake. I'm pretty sure it is teething though. Her bottom gums are definitely sore because she wouldn't let me touch them this evening and I can see the tooth clearly under the gum. She's just had Nurofen half an hour ago so hopefully that might settle her a bit!

Oh I know what you mean. My LO was never an amazing sleeper as a young baby but for a while she seemed to be making developmentally-appropriate progress, and when that stopped and everything went backwards I was totally crushed and felt like I was losing control. Of course I had never actually been in control of anything but my instinct was still to blame myself and that made everything so much worse.

I hope the Nurofen helps and your LO settles down for the rest of the night :hugs: We were dealing with teething here last night too. I forgot to give her ibuprofen and she cried out every couple of hours all night long, poor thing.


----------



## Aimee4311

Hey y'all! I've been silently stalking this thread for a few weeks now, but this is my first post. 

For the last couple of weeks Josalyn has been waking several times per night. Shes generally very easy to get back down. It normally takes only 2 minutes or less. I don't know if the increase in wake ups is because of a growth spurt or what. She mastered sitting unaided within the last 2 weeks and she cut her first 2 teeth about 4 weeks ago. 

I'm just wondering if this is likely a short phase, or if I need to change things up if its a sign that what I'm doing isn't working. 

We bed share, and normally (though not always) feed to sleep along with rocking or some other movement. Other times I feed her, then rock her to sleep. When she wakes in the night, sometimes patting her will work, but normally the quickest easiest thing is offering the boob. 

I've even thinking that offering the boob during her wake ups may be causing more wake ups (object permanence), so I've been trying other methods to settle her before offering the boob. Often though, this doesn't work and makes the wake ups longer and more difficult. 

Right now I'd like to minimize the night wakings to 2-3 if possible. :)

Any advice from you wonderful ladies? :)


----------



## Twister

I can't do this anymore. I feel like her sleep is getting worse again. She can't seem to sleep for more than 3 hours and me and oh have just had a hellish time trying to resettle her and I completely lost my rag again:cry: It's 2:30am, she's been awake for 1.5 hours and she's showing no sign of going back to sleep. I don't understand it.

She's started waking half an hour after going to bed instead of an hour after going to bed. Then 2 hours after that, followed by a 2-4 hour stretch, then the same again. Although the past few nights its been every 2-3hours it feels like.

She has 2 naps a day usually at least an hour long each, rarely exceeding or reaching 2 hours in length. If for some reason she only naps for 30minutes then I'll usually throw in another cat nap to prevent over tiredness.

I'm so tired, I feel like I can't do this anymore. Oh is currently in there trying to settle her because I just can't. I feel like crap. I've let her cio a few times but haven't been consistent with it, need to decide if I truly want to go down the cc/cio route or not. I don't think any other methods would work tbh but it's so hard hearing her cry.

People have been saying sleep starts to improve at around 7 months, she's almost 7 months so I'll be interested to see if this rings true for her. I'm at a loss as to why she won't sleep for longer than 3 hours most of the time though. It's definitely not hunger. I agree with the others, its super tough going from having a relatively good sleeper to an absolutely crap one. Makes you feel like you've done something seriously wrong.


----------



## seaweed eater

Sorry about all the teething trouble! I hope all the teething babies are sleeping more restfully soon :hugs:

Noelle, it's interesting to hear about that phase you went through where C was fighting bedtimes. I'm guessing my LO's separation anxiety will get worse before it gets better, but it's nice to know that it might pass eventually (in weeks, not months). Boo, I hope Jack slept well in the end and that you have a better bedtime tomorrow :hugs:

Twister, lots of :hugs: to you. Can you remind us, what are you doing to settle LO when she wakes?

Aimee, sorry to see you here friend. Are you open to having her sleep in her own space? Munchkin's sleep improved a lot (from 5ish wakings to 2ish) once we moved him to his own room from our room (not bedsharing). Other than that...if you were open to letting her cry, you could do what we tried and bite the bullet and just try to stop nursing to sleep altogether. That didn't work great for us in the sense that Munchkin was still unhappy with it after several days, but it did help his sleep a whole lot, and I think another baby might have adjusted better. J seems like a more easygoing baby than Munchkin so I wouldn't be surprised if you tried that and had an easier time, but it would still involve letting her cry. I don't know what else to tell you. We are trying the NCSS gentle removal thing but I don't think it has really helped at all. But that might be something else you could try if you want to avoid crying. :hugs:


----------



## Aimee4311

I'm still trying to decide what to do. OH and I have been sick with a stomach bug the last few days, so I'm going to wait at least a few more days til everyone is feeling 100%.

I've been considering going closer to your route, Seaweed, and starting to have DH start put her to sleep. But I know that will cause her a lot of tears...it may help her break the nursing association when going to sleep/trying to stay asleep though.... So far, in the last 5 months, Josiah has only been able to get her to sleep 4 times. Once was yesterday for a nap while I was sick. So I'm hoping she's becoming more accepting of him getting her to sleep. 

Oh, and pretty much the only thing she's not laid back about is her sleep! It has to be me putting her to sleep (usually), I have to nurse her and bounce her, then put her down very gently once she's completely out. I've tried y'all's suggestion of putting her down still partially awake, and that leads to horrible angry screams! :dohh: 

I'm still trying to figure out what's best for us!


----------



## seaweed eater

Munchkin is not that easygoing about other things either :p that's why it wasn't a surprise to me or DH when he put up such a fight about sleep. I also know exactly where he gets it from...my parents said I was hard to sleep train, too! :)

Have you ever tried getting her asleep and then waking her up a bit as you put her down? Munchkin would never go down actually awake until a few times recently, but he tolerates being woken up on the way. I think it is a good way to show him where he is so that he's not surprised when he wakes up, and it also may have served as a foundation for helping him learn to settle without nursing (although who knows really).


----------



## Twister

I usually just feed her as its the easiest way. Lately she's been doing this thing where when I try and replace boob with her dummy she pulls away and refuses it even when 'asleep' its making it 10x harder to get her back in her cot.


----------



## stephie_corin

Sunnie1984 said:


> Gah....
> 
> WW37 kicks butt
> Stomach flu for the entire household TWICE in three weeks is worse
> Sitting up in cot in sleep is annoying
> Standing unaided is YAY but also affecting sleep
> Naps are too long and causing late bedtime and early waking, probably night wakings too
> Hubby away lots, grrrr
> 
> 
> Stephie if you want C to sleep longer for his naps you could look at beginning to extend wake times very slowly (will means transition to two naps but would keep the early bedtime - this is what we did - as per the baby whisperer), so he gets longer naps. He's at the age my LO began to respond to this and dropped to two naps. Ps where are you n expat?
> 
> Everyone else, I have been reading, sorry to see new faces here (because your not getting sleep - not be use I'm anti social!) and sorry to see some problems with the longstanding members!
> 
> Bananaz just realised E looks remarkably similar to my DD, very beautiful photo.
> 
> X

Hi Sunnie, that sounds awful! You poor thing!

We are in Dubai. Culver was born here and we have been here almost 5 years. He actually responds well to a longer wake time, so I think it's worth a shot. I'm not sure if you remember, but what waketimes were you doing at 6-7 months? He's currently doing 2.5-3 hourly waketimes with three naps... Maybe he is awake too much?! He slept 7-530 last night (with about 7 wakeups) and day sleep was three hours.

ETA- his natural pattern is 3 x 30 min naps but sometimes I can rock him back to sleep.


----------



## stephie_corin

Twister said:


> I can't do this anymore. I feel like her sleep is getting worse again. She can't seem to sleep for more than 3 hours and me and oh have just had a hellish time trying to resettle her and I completely lost my rag again:cry: It's 2:30am, she's been awake for 1.5 hours and she's showing no sign of going back to sleep. I don't understand it.
> 
> She's started waking half an hour after going to bed instead of an hour after going to bed. Then 2 hours after that, followed by a 2-4 hour stretch, then the same again. Although the past few nights its been every 2-3hours it feels like.
> 
> She has 2 naps a day usually at least an hour long each, rarely exceeding or reaching 2 hours in length. If for some reason she only naps for 30minutes then I'll usually throw in another cat nap to prevent over tiredness.
> 
> I'm so tired, I feel like I can't do this anymore. Oh is currently in there trying to settle her because I just can't. I feel like crap. I've let her cio a few times but haven't been consistent with it, need to decide if I truly want to go down the cc/cio route or not. I don't think any other methods would work tbh but it's so hard hearing her cry.
> 
> People have been saying sleep starts to improve at around 7 months, she's almost 7 months so I'll be interested to see if this rings true for her. I'm at a loss as to why she won't sleep for longer than 3 hours most of the time though. It's definitely not hunger. I agree with the others, its super tough going from having a relatively good sleeper to an absolutely crap one. Makes you feel like you've done something seriously wrong.

Sorry things are so rough twister. Thinking of you and hoping things improve soon xxx


----------



## stephie_corin

Boo44 said:


> Ok I think I'm going to cry!
> 
> We are officially having the worst bedtime we have had since the day he was born!
> 
> All was fine and normal, he had his 9oz bottle got his wind up, had his song time and then down to bed as usual. Usually will self settle with either not a single peep or a teeny bit of fussing
> 
> Tonight as soon as I walked out the room he started to scream. Left him for 5 mins but ear-piercing awful scream like in pain. So went back in to settle. Repeat over and over. Has now been screaming for 45 mins. Wtf?!?! I actually have no idea what to do! He screams as soon as we walk out.
> 
> The only thing I can think is he was fussy at my friend's today. I wondered if he was in pain then so gave calpol. Have just given ibuprofen now also.
> 
> Ohh I'm so sad about this. I've noticed him crying when I leave the room for naps as well recently. But today he self settled for nap fine. And last night for bed not a peep. It's so random...

Boo I hope Noelle is right and it passes quickly! Sounds really tough!!


----------



## bananaz

Twister said:


> I can't do this anymore. I feel like her sleep is getting worse again. She can't seem to sleep for more than 3 hours and me and oh have just had a hellish time trying to resettle her and I completely lost my rag again:cry: It's 2:30am, she's been awake for 1.5 hours and she's showing no sign of going back to sleep. I don't understand it.
> 
> She's started waking half an hour after going to bed instead of an hour after going to bed. Then 2 hours after that, followed by a 2-4 hour stretch, then the same again. Although the past few nights its been every 2-3hours it feels like.
> 
> She has 2 naps a day usually at least an hour long each, rarely exceeding or reaching 2 hours in length. If for some reason she only naps for 30minutes then I'll usually throw in another cat nap to prevent over tiredness.
> 
> I'm so tired, I feel like I can't do this anymore. Oh is currently in there trying to settle her because I just can't. I feel like crap. I've let her cio a few times but haven't been consistent with it, need to decide if I truly want to go down the cc/cio route or not. I don't think any other methods would work tbh but it's so hard hearing her cry.
> 
> People have been saying sleep starts to improve at around 7 months, she's almost 7 months so I'll be interested to see if this rings true for her. I'm at a loss as to why she won't sleep for longer than 3 hours most of the time though. It's definitely not hunger. I agree with the others, its super tough going from having a relatively good sleeper to an absolutely crap one. Makes you feel like you've done something seriously wrong.

Agh I'm so sorry, that's tough. If she you don't think she's hungry and she isn't really eating much during these wakings I'd suggest having your OH take over for a few nights, if possible. It might help remove some of the incentive for the wakings and it would give you a much-needed break.

How long did she cry when you left her to it?

*Edit:* About the long night wakings, that also happened with my LO at that age (and many other people on here experienced the same thing). I really do think they can be developmental, though of course that's no consolation when it's the middle of the night and you're exhausted :(


----------



## bananaz

Boo44 said:


> Ok I think I'm going to cry!
> 
> We are officially having the worst bedtime we have had since the day he was born!
> 
> All was fine and normal, he had his 9oz bottle got his wind up, had his song time and then down to bed as usual. Usually will self settle with either not a single peep or a teeny bit of fussing
> 
> Tonight as soon as I walked out the room he started to scream. Left him for 5 mins but ear-piercing awful scream like in pain. So went back in to settle. Repeat over and over. Has now been screaming for 45 mins. Wtf?!?! I actually have no idea what to do! He screams as soon as we walk out.
> 
> The only thing I can think is he was fussy at my friend's today. I wondered if he was in pain then so gave calpol. Have just given ibuprofen now also.
> 
> Ohh I'm so sad about this. I've noticed him crying when I leave the room for naps as well recently. But today he self settled for nap fine. And last night for bed not a peep. It's so random...

Aw hon that's terrible, big hugs to you :hugs: My LO had a night like that a few days ago. It took over an hour to get her to sleep when normally it takes <10 minutes. I'm still not sure what the issue was, but she went back to normal the next night. Hopefully it's just a random blip for Jack too.


----------



## Sunnie1984

stephie_corin said:


> Sunnie1984 said:
> 
> 
> Gah....
> 
> WW37 kicks butt
> Stomach flu for the entire household TWICE in three weeks is worse
> Sitting up in cot in sleep is annoying
> Standing unaided is YAY but also affecting sleep
> Naps are too long and causing late bedtime and early waking, probably night wakings too
> Hubby away lots, grrrr
> 
> 
> Stephie if you want C to sleep longer for his naps you could look at beginning to extend wake times very slowly (will means transition to two naps but would keep the early bedtime - this is what we did - as per the baby whisperer), so he gets longer naps. He's at the age my LO began to respond to this and dropped to two naps. Ps where are you n expat?
> 
> Everyone else, I have been reading, sorry to see new faces here (because your not getting sleep - not be use I'm anti social!) and sorry to see some problems with the longstanding members!
> 
> Bananaz just realised E looks remarkably similar to my DD, very beautiful photo.
> 
> X
> 
> Hi Sunnie, that sounds awful! You poor thing!
> 
> We are in Dubai. Culver was born here and we have been here almost 5 years. He actually responds well to a longer wake time, so I think it's worth a shot. I'm not sure if you remember, but what waketimes were you doing at 6-7 months? He's currently doing 2.5-3 hourly waketimes with three naps... Maybe he is awake too much?! He slept 7-530 last night (with about 7 wakeups) and day sleep was three hours.
> 
> ETA- his natural pattern is 3 x 30 min naps but sometimes I can rock him back to sleep.Click to expand...

How random, we are in Dubai as well! 

I think Seren was doing about the same as C a that stage, but some babies can tolerate longer awake times. 

I'd just add 10 mins to the first awake time and hold it there for three days and then extend again.

We also found extending each awake time by 10 mins helped a lot, so after three days you increase the second awake time by 10 mins and leve the first awake time with just the 10 mins increase, then work your way back around again, does that make sense? 

I just waited until she did tired signs and did 10 mins of quiet time before putting her down. 

Hope that helps! X


----------



## stephie_corin

Sunnie, small world! I'm sending you a message! Thanks for the tips, really appreciate it!


----------



## Boo44

Noelle610 said:


> Good point Polaris! Hope tonight isn't so bad for you. We've sometimes had multiple wakings early on only to get a nice long stretch after midnight.
> 
> I'm convinced our babies have their own forum. Bedtime has been like a dream recently, but Boo, Charlie is really fighting it tonight!

Lol I can just imagine it!

'Hey guys let's fight bed time tonight!'


----------



## polaris

Boo44 said:


> Noelle610 said:
> 
> 
> Good point Polaris! Hope tonight isn't so bad for you. We've sometimes had multiple wakings early on only to get a nice long stretch after midnight.
> 
> I'm convinced our babies have their own forum. Bedtime has been like a dream recently, but Boo, Charlie is really fighting it tonight!
> 
> Lol I can just imagine it!
> 
> 'Hey guys let's fight bed time tonight!'Click to expand...

'I think mummy's starting to think she has my sleeping figured out, give me a few new ideas quick! Has anyone been through this and managed to revert back keeping her awake all night again, and if so, how did you do it?'


----------



## Twister

Thanks for the replies. Absolutely shattered today. I let her cry for about 5ish mins. Then she started getting really upset so I went to her. A few nights ago she cried for 30mins which was awful so I went in. And since then I hadn't done it again because I felt so guilty. I think part of it is because I'm not sure if I'm doing it right, and I don't want to 'cause damage' by doing it wrong which is silly but you know what I mean? I guess if I'm going to do it I need to be more consistent with it and do it at ALL sleep times, not just at night, is that right?

I think I might start getting oh to help at night a bit more, but mainly on weekends has his job involves driving so obviously he needs to be well rested for that. Tonight I'm going to try and settle her without feeding her. It's hard because in the middle of the night all I can think about is going back to bed and boobing her is the quickest/easiest way to get her back down (although even that is coming increasingly difficult now). I guess I should expect some tears.

I feel like I'm doing it all wrong.


----------



## Twister

Oh and forgot to add, she settles fine for naps and bedtime, sometimes even self settling and she's rarely bf to sleep at those times.

Eta: except for this nap, she's not settling for her first nap very easily. Probably because she's overtired from last night:dohh:


----------



## MrsButterfly

Twister - I'm just popping in here but wanted to say my lo's sleep was absolute hell 6-7months. I cried about it most days I was so shattered. Could have written your posts. i tried everything but in the middle of the night my resolve was non existant so cc and CIO were all tried but i couldnt stick to it so we co slept as it meant i got *some* sleep. 

Then after he turned 7 months, one day he woke up a different baby. I've since seen on here that's quite common. So I'm really hoping same happens for you.


----------



## Twister

Thanks. That's giving me some hope.:D

It's just frustrating because I thought her sleep was improving, she did a few nights of only waking up twice and it was great. Roll on 7 months!


----------



## Noelle610

Twister, :hugs: mama. I agree with Bananaz suggestion. I would have OH take over for a few nights. Honestly, you may even want to consider letting him sleep train and you take a few days away at a friends. I have friends who have done this and it's worked well. If you're concerned about doing it the wrong way, you could have him follow Ferber's chart to a T. It's very detailed and pretty soft.

Regardless, this WILL pass. Charlotte also went through those long night wakings at that age. They're hell, I know.


----------



## Noelle610

polaris said:


> Boo44 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Noelle610 said:
> 
> 
> Good point Polaris! Hope tonight isn't so bad for you. We've sometimes had multiple wakings early on only to get a nice long stretch after midnight.
> 
> I'm convinced our babies have their own forum. Bedtime has been like a dream recently, but Boo, Charlie is really fighting it tonight!
> 
> Lol I can just imagine it!
> 
> 'Hey guys let's fight bed time tonight!'Click to expand...
> 
> 'I think mummy's starting to think she has my sleeping figured out, give me a few new ideas quick! Has anyone been through this and managed to revert back keeping her awake all night again, and if so, how did you do it?'Click to expand...

:rofl:


----------



## Noelle610

Aimee, welcome hun! What's your little one's daytime routine like?

6 months is growth spurt/wonder week time, so this may pass on it's own.


----------



## stephie_corin

polaris said:


> Boo44 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Noelle610 said:
> 
> 
> Good point Polaris! Hope tonight isn't so bad for you. We've sometimes had multiple wakings early on only to get a nice long stretch after midnight.
> 
> I'm convinced our babies have their own forum. Bedtime has been like a dream recently, but Boo, Charlie is really fighting it tonight!
> 
> Lol I can just imagine it!
> 
> 'Hey guys let's fight bed time tonight!'Click to expand...
> 
> 'I think mummy's starting to think she has my sleeping figured out, give me a few new ideas quick! Has anyone been through this and managed to revert back keeping her awake all night again, and if so, how did you do it?'Click to expand...

'LOL my mummy thought she could rock me to sleep and extend my naps, I even heard her and daddy talk about it, but I showed them!! Who wants to be part of the cat napping gang?!? We'll sleep even less than the WPB task force babies!'

;)


----------



## polaris

stephie_corin said:


> polaris said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Boo44 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Noelle610 said:
> 
> 
> Good point Polaris! Hope tonight isn't so bad for you. We've sometimes had multiple wakings early on only to get a nice long stretch after midnight.
> 
> I'm convinced our babies have their own forum. Bedtime has been like a dream recently, but Boo, Charlie is really fighting it tonight!
> 
> Lol I can just imagine it!
> 
> 'Hey guys let's fight bed time tonight!'Click to expand...
> 
> 'I think mummy's starting to think she has my sleeping figured out, give me a few new ideas quick! Has anyone been through this and managed to revert back keeping her awake all night again, and if so, how did you do it?'Click to expand...
> 
> 'LOL my mummy thought she could rock me to sleep and extend my naps, I even heard her and daddy talk about it, but I showed them!! Who wants to be part of the cat napping gang?!? We'll sleep even less than the WPB task force babies!'
> 
> ;)Click to expand...

LOL, I swear they do listen in to our conversations! I was just saying to OH yesterday that it had been at least a week since she'd woken up 45 minutes after bedtime - so what did she do last night just to show me?


----------



## Shadowy Lady

Twister - we did Ferber at around 5 months or so with Sofia and it worked wonderful for us. I let hubby follow the chart (as Noelle suggested) Ferber has in his book and I slept at my folks for 2 nights that it took. If you're not opposed to sleep training I find his method to work wonderfully not only for us but so many of my friends as well. I've mentioned before in this thread, but based on my experience babies cry A LOT less once they learn to sleep on their own. 

I gave Advil to Sofia and she was back to sleeping through again last night. This morning I saw the second tooth poking out already. I wish they'd all come out at the same time!!!


----------



## Noelle610

Great news Shadowy Lady! 

I know this has been posted before... possibly both in Baby Club and this thread, but whatever it's too funny not to repeat:



> OK, here&#8217;s my situation. My Mommy has had me for almost 7 months. The first few months were great &#8211; I cried, she picked me up and fed me, anytime, day or night. Then something happened.
> 
> Over the last few weeks, she has been trying to STTN (sleep through the night). At first, I thought it was just a phase, but it is only getting worse. I&#8217;ve talked to other babies, and it seems like it&#8217;s pretty common after Mommies have had us for around 6 months. Here&#8217;s the thing: these Mommies don&#8217;t really need to sleep. It&#8217;s just a habit. Many of them have had some 30 years to sleep&#8211;they just don&#8217;t need it anymore. So I am implementing a plan. I call it the Crybaby Shuffle. It goes like this:
> 
> Night 1&#8211;cry every 3 hours until you get fed. I know, it&#8217;s hard. It&#8217;s hard to see your Mommy upset over your crying. Just keep reminding yourself, it&#8217;s for her own good.
> 
> Night 2&#8211;cry every 2 hours until you get fed.
> 
> Night 3&#8211;every hour.
> 
> Most Mommies will start to respond more quickly after about 3 nights. Some Mommies are more alert, and may resist the change longer. These Mommies may stand in your doorway for hours, shhhh-ing. Don&#8217;t give in. I cannot stress this enough: CONSISTENCY IS KEY!! If you let her STTN (sleep through the night), just once, she will expect it every night. I KNOW IT&#8217;S HARD! But she really doesn&#8217;t need the sleep, she&#8217;s just resisting the change. If you have an especially alert Mommy, you can stop crying for about 10 minutes, just long enough for her to go back to bed and start to fall asleep. Then cry again. It WILL eventually work. My Mommy once stayed awake for 10 hours straight, so I know she can do it.
> 
> Last night, I cried every hour. You just have to decide to stick to it and just go for it. BE CONSISTENT! I cried for any reason I could come up with. My sleep sack tickled my foot. I felt a wrinkle under the sheet. My mobile made a shadow on the wall. I burped, and it tasted like pears. I hadn&#8217;t eaten pears since lunch, what&#8217;s up with that? The cat said &#8220;meow&#8221;. I should know. My Mommy reminds me of this about 20 times a day. LOL. Once I cried just because I liked how it sounded when it echoed on the monitor in the other room. Too hot, too cold, just right&#8211;doesn&#8217;t matter! Keep crying!!
> 
> It took awhile, but it worked. She fed me at 4am. Tomorrow night, my goal is 3:30am. You need to slowly shorten the interval between feedings in order to reset your Mommies&#8217; internal clocks.
> 
> Sometimes my Mommy will call for reinforcements by sending in Daddy. Don&#8217;t worry Daddies are not set up for not needing sleep the way Mommies are. They can only handle a few pats and shhing before they declare defeat and send in the Mommy.
> 
> Also, be wary of the sleep sheep with rain noises. I like to give Mommy false hope that listening to the rain puts me to sleep sometimes I pretend to close my eyes and be asleep and then wait until I know Mommy is settling back to sleep to spring a surprise cry attack. If she doesn&#8217;t get to me fast enough I follow up with my fake cough and gag noise that always has her running to the crib. At some point I am positive she will start to realize that she really doesn&#8217;t really need sleep.
> 
> P.S. Don&#8217;t let those rubber things fool you, no matter how long you suck on them, no milk will come out. Trust me.


----------



## mrssunshine78

Noelle610 said:


> Great news Shadowy Lady!
> 
> I know this has been posted before... possibly both in Baby Club and this thread, but whatever it's too funny not to repeat:
> 
> 
> 
> OK, heres my situation. My Mommy has had me for almost 7 months. The first few months were great  I cried, she picked me up and fed me, anytime, day or night. Then something happened.
> 
> Over the last few weeks, she has been trying to STTN (sleep through the night). At first, I thought it was just a phase, but it is only getting worse. Ive talked to other babies, and it seems like its pretty common after Mommies have had us for around 6 months. Heres the thing: these Mommies dont really need to sleep. Its just a habit. Many of them have had some 30 years to sleepthey just dont need it anymore. So I am implementing a plan. I call it the Crybaby Shuffle. It goes like this:
> 
> Night 1cry every 3 hours until you get fed. I know, its hard. Its hard to see your Mommy upset over your crying. Just keep reminding yourself, its for her own good.
> 
> Night 2cry every 2 hours until you get fed.
> 
> Night 3every hour.
> 
> Most Mommies will start to respond more quickly after about 3 nights. Some Mommies are more alert, and may resist the change longer. These Mommies may stand in your doorway for hours, shhhh-ing. Dont give in. I cannot stress this enough: CONSISTENCY IS KEY!! If you let her STTN (sleep through the night), just once, she will expect it every night. I KNOW ITS HARD! But she really doesnt need the sleep, shes just resisting the change. If you have an especially alert Mommy, you can stop crying for about 10 minutes, just long enough for her to go back to bed and start to fall asleep. Then cry again. It WILL eventually work. My Mommy once stayed awake for 10 hours straight, so I know she can do it.
> 
> Last night, I cried every hour. You just have to decide to stick to it and just go for it. BE CONSISTENT! I cried for any reason I could come up with. My sleep sack tickled my foot. I felt a wrinkle under the sheet. My mobile made a shadow on the wall. I burped, and it tasted like pears. I hadnt eaten pears since lunch, whats up with that? The cat said meow. I should know. My Mommy reminds me of this about 20 times a day. LOL. Once I cried just because I liked how it sounded when it echoed on the monitor in the other room. Too hot, too cold, just rightdoesnt matter! Keep crying!!
> 
> It took awhile, but it worked. She fed me at 4am. Tomorrow night, my goal is 3:30am. You need to slowly shorten the interval between feedings in order to reset your Mommies internal clocks.
> 
> Sometimes my Mommy will call for reinforcements by sending in Daddy. Dont worry Daddies are not set up for not needing sleep the way Mommies are. They can only handle a few pats and shhing before they declare defeat and send in the Mommy.
> 
> Also, be wary of the sleep sheep with rain noises. I like to give Mommy false hope that listening to the rain puts me to sleep sometimes I pretend to close my eyes and be asleep and then wait until I know Mommy is settling back to sleep to spring a surprise cry attack. If she doesnt get to me fast enough I follow up with my fake cough and gag noise that always has her running to the crib. At some point I am positive she will start to realize that she really doesnt really need sleep.
> 
> P.S. Dont let those rubber things fool you, no matter how long you suck on them, no milk will come out. Trust me.Click to expand...

I love this, someone put it on Facebook before, I seriously think that our little girl could have wrote it. 

Twister so sorry you having so many problems, it sounds similar to what my friend went through, her little boy started sleeping through at about 9 weeks I think, then the 4 month sleep regression started and he was a nightmare, he's now 9 months and sleeping through again, I know it seems like a long way off, but I think if you were able to do some sleep training it wouldn't last as long, my friend couldn't bring herself to do it until recently. 

So last night Jasmine slept better, she went to bed just before 7, cried for a minute or so at 155 and 230, woke at 530 and went back off until 550!! She's much happier today :thumbup:


----------



## Noelle610

sounds great Sunshine!


----------



## Aimee4311

Noelle, our daytime routine usually looks like this-

7:30-8:30- wake up
9:45- (hour and 15 after waking) 1st nap
10:45- wake up
1:00- nap
2:30-3:00- wake up (usually the longest nap) 
5:30-6:00- cat nap
8:00- start winding down for bed, change, feed, then the sleep process
9:00-9:30- usually asleep by now

Looking at it like that, I'm thinking maybe her last awake time is too long? I've tried tons of times putting her to bed earlier though and she will often treat it as a nap an wake up at like 9-10 pm ready to play! 

Last night I tried moving up her bedtime a half an hour and getting her to sleep by 8:30, but she fought it so hard! So I put her down for a few minutes and let her get some energy out playing on the floor, then tried again. When I looked at the clock right after she was asleep, it was 9:00! 

Seaweed, I think I'll try waking her a tad bit when I set her down to see if that helps. I'm afraid she'll turn into a screaming mess though from being woken up! 

Last night I tried not to feed her first thing during her night wakings. She woke up about 8 times! 

Her first was 45 minutes after bedtime and it was most difficult to get met back to sleep. But I managed to without feeding. 

Her third and sixth wake ups I also managed to get her back to sleep without the boob. She loves the boob so much though, sometimes I wake up and find her latched on and I know I didn't put her there! 

Sorry for the novel y'all. 

Twister, I've been keeping tabs on your sleep journey with Jessica since our Los are closer to the same age. I hope it gets better soon!


----------



## Noelle610

Thanks Aimee! You're going to want to adjust your schedule slightly to get that cat nap earlier and bedtime earlier. It means slightly stretching the wake times earlier in the day to reduce the wake time before bed to prevent her from getting overtired. Give it a week to work. I think this will really help her night sleep. So you're routine would go something like this (the time awake is more important than the actual times, you don't have to go by the clock):

7:30am wake

9:15am-10:15am nap 1

12:30pm-2:30pm nap 2

4:45pm-5:15pm nap 3

7:30pm bedtime

I hope this helps! You also may want to wake her by 7:30am at the latest. I know that's no fun, but it will make doing an easier bedtime earlier. If she doesn't wake until 8:30am, everything will be pushed later and less in sync with her natural rhythms.


----------



## mellyboo

Twister I'm going through the same thing right now, she literally slept good for a week and right now its like 2 good days and 1 super bad day and I've changed nothing to her routine in the last while... I dont understand how she can self settle her self at bed time and naps but the in the middle of the night it's a no go.. I have a feeling its to the point if it doesn't get better when she is 8 months i'm going down the CIO route because its just wearing me down i swear during the day i've started seeing dots in my vision i'm so darn tired and wore out all the time!


----------



## Twister

Ok ladies, I've been doing a bit of googling and have made the decision to do Ferber. Starting tonight. This simply cannot go on, it's getting silly and neither of us are getting any decent sleep. I found a version of the chart online, is this right:



> Day 1 - 3 min (1st wait); 5 min (2nd wait); 10 min (3rd wait); 10 min (subsequent waits)
> 
> Day 2 &#8211; 5 min; 10 min; 12 min; 12 min (subsequent waits)
> 
> Day 3 &#8211; 10 min; 12 min; 15 min; 15 min (subsequent waits)
> 
> Day 4 &#8211; 12 min; 15 min; 17 min; 17 min (subsequent waits)
> 
> Day 5 &#8211; 15 min; 17 min; 20 min; 20 min (subsequent waits)
> 
> Day 6 &#8211; 17 min; 20 min; 25 min; 25 min (subsequent waits)
> 
> Day 7 &#8211; 20 min; 25 min; 30 min; 30 min (subsequent waits)

So. Any advice? I would make my own thread but I don't want to get bombarded by people who are anti sleep training :)


----------



## stephie_corin

Oh my, I am Nervous (note capital 'N') for tonight. It took me over an hour to put him down, and I nurse to sleep! I held him for the usual 5 mins then put him down... Cue eyes open, red face, legs kicking and crying. I rocked him to sleep, tried ten minutes this time... Same again. I tried holding him for 20 minutes after his eyes closed... Same again!!! Finally after half an hour of holding him I managed to ease him down. Eek! And that's normally the easy part of our night!

Good luck everyone!!!


----------



## stephie_corin

Twister, no advice but good luck. You might want to read this blog post:

https://www.healthytippingpoint.com/2012/12/adventures-in-baby-sleep-training.html

I remember reading it a while back and finding it quite thorough.


----------



## Noelle610

Twister said:


> Ok ladies, I've been doing a bit of googling and have made the decision to do Ferber. Starting tonight. This simply cannot go on, it's getting silly and neither of us are getting any decent sleep. I found a version of the chart online, is this right:
> 
> 
> 
> Day 1 - 3 min (1st wait); 5 min (2nd wait); 10 min (3rd wait); 10 min (subsequent waits)
> 
> Day 2  5 min; 10 min; 12 min; 12 min (subsequent waits)
> 
> Day 3  10 min; 12 min; 15 min; 15 min (subsequent waits)
> 
> Day 4  12 min; 15 min; 17 min; 17 min (subsequent waits)
> 
> Day 5  15 min; 17 min; 20 min; 20 min (subsequent waits)
> 
> Day 6  17 min; 20 min; 25 min; 25 min (subsequent waits)
> 
> Day 7  20 min; 25 min; 30 min; 30 min (subsequent waits)
> 
> So. Any advice? I would make my own thread but I don't want to get bombarded by people who are anti sleep training :)Click to expand...

That's perfect dear. My advice is to be consistent and send daddy in when your checks get her more worked up than calm.


----------



## Noelle610

Good luck tonight Steph!


----------



## Twister

Thank you both! I'm nervous. 

Question: what if she wakes and she's genuinely hungry? Like how would I know? Should I just guess based on how long ago her last feed was? So if she wakes 2 hours after her last feed chances are she's not hungry and to go through with CC, but if she wakes 6 hours after then she's probably hungry, right?


----------



## Noelle610

Twister said:


> Thank you both! I'm nervous.
> 
> Question: what if she wakes and she's genuinely hungry? Like how would I know? Should I just guess based on how long ago her last feed was? So if she wakes 2 hours after her last feed chances are she's not hungry and to go through with CC, but if she wakes 6 hours after then she's probably hungry, right?

I would set a feeding cut-off of 6 hours. Feed her once at night after 6 hours and perhaps again after 4 hours if necessary. For other night wakings use CC.


----------



## stephie_corin

Quick question: if he sleeps fine in my arms but cries the minute I put him down is this consistent with teething? Or some new form of sleep torture? He keeps waking crying but is fine as soon as I pick him up. He's crying/waking much more than usual and it's only 2 hours since bedtime. I don't want to give him pain relief for bad sleep but will give him some paracetamol if he is in pain.

ETA- sorry that is not very clear. What I mean to ask is can teething pain be soothed just by picking them up or would they keep crying even if you pick them up when teething.


----------



## NotNic

I think that if they stop crying completely then teeth probably isn't the main reason for them being awake. That said, sometimes a niggling pain (not enough to make them wail) is enough to stop them from settling into a deep sleep. If F cries in the night I tend to go in and tuck him back in and give him his dummy. If he doesn't calm down straight away or cries quite soon after, I repeat twice more. Third go I add teething gel. If after these few goes he still won't calm down, I give him medicine and maybe teething granules too to get him out of the tizz. If he's had a bad teething day I tend to use the gel sooner and give him nurofen before bed.


----------



## stephie_corin

Thanks NN! Really appreciate it xxx


----------



## Twister

Ok, so I've just put her in her cot. She's quiet right now, so that means I don't go in right? Only when she's crying? The only thing is that she keeps flipping over and removing her dummy, can i go in to flip her back and reinsert dummy or do i stick to the intervals? Sorry for the dumb question.


----------



## Boo44

Good luck twister and stephie. I too am totally nervous tonight about bed time after last night's epic fail. I actually feel nauseous as bed time approaches. What a drama queen!!

Twister, I have never done CC but I would say that if she's not crying, don't go in. If she's upset by the flipping she will begin to cry and that's when I would implement the 3 minute start. 

Thank you for posting that today. I have memorised it as I'm preparing to need it if this phase turns out to be separation anxiety.... :)


----------



## bananaz

Twister said:


> Ok, so I've just put her in her cot. She's quiet right now, so that means I don't go in right? Only when she's crying? The only thing is that she keeps flipping over and removing her dummy, can i go in to flip her back and reinsert dummy or do i stick to the intervals? Sorry for the dumb question.

Don't go in unless she's upset, even if she's flipping over. Stick with the intervals :hugs:


----------



## Twister

Thanks boo and bananaz. She started crying shortly after so I started timing from then.

Another question: is it ok to use a dummy? Considering I'm not doing it for the purpose of dummy weaning. And when lo wakes in the night simply popping a dummy in doesn't work. Or is it best to not use one? I just went in after the first 10min interval, reinserted her dummy and now she's asleep. Did I do it wrong? 

Completely forgot to ask about this earlier I hope I haven't messed it up :(


----------



## Noelle610

Two schools of thought on the dummy. Some say it's fine and others say ditch it. I think it's fine. During the day I'd try teaching her to re-insert it herself.


----------



## Boo44

We have a dummy. In fact I put 4 in his cot on a night! Works fab for us and like noelle says, he has been able to find it and put it in himself for ages now x


----------



## Boo44

Girls can I have nap advice (again sorry if I'm boring you now!)

This is our schedule currently:

7 ish wake up
10.30-11.30 nap 1
3-3.45 nap 2
7.30 bed time

I have a few issues - I am waking him at the end of both naps to cap them. I get the feeling he'd sleep for much longer. It feels a bit wrong to prematurely wake him, especially at 11.30am each day.
He's not very tired at bed time. On a good day he will take 10 mins to fall asleep. Not that long, but again, I feel he's happy to be awake and playing at that time and I'm almost 'forcing' bed time onto him.

Should I stick with it as it is?

PS - update re tonight - he _seems_ to have gone down with only approx 30 seconds of crying. I am so happy! I gave him both naps at home today to reinforce self settling, and he managed it both times, albeit with 10 mins of crying at nap 2


----------



## Noelle610

Boo44 said:


> Girls can I have nap advice (again sorry if I'm boring you now!)
> 
> This is our schedule currently:
> 
> 7 ish wake up
> 10.30-11.30 nap 1
> 3-3.45 nap 2
> 7.30 bed time
> 
> I have a few issues - I am waking him at the end of both naps to cap them. I get the feeling he'd sleep for much longer. It feels a bit wrong to prematurely wake him, especially at 11.30am each day.
> He's not very tired at bed time. On a good day he will take 10 mins to fall asleep. Not that long, but again, I feel he's happy to be awake and playing at that time and I'm almost 'forcing' bed time onto him.
> 
> Should I stick with it as it is?
> 
> PS - update re tonight - he _seems_ to have gone down with only approx 30 seconds of crying. I am so happy! I gave him both naps at home today to reinforce self settling, and he managed it both times, albeit with 10 mins of crying at nap 2

Hey hun. I would tweak you're schedule a bit. Try putting him down for that first nap earlier - try 10am. Wake him at 11am. Then do your second nap at 2:30pm and let him sleep no later than 4pm. Perhaps try around 7:30/8 for bedtime and see how it goes. If he's falling asleep in ten minutes, he's likely just at that magic moment where he is tired, but not fussy and overtired. That's a good thing! But I think you could try what I've suggested if you want to let him sleep slightly longer during the day.


----------



## Tess.ie

Twister I used CC with Chloe and unless something is really bothering her like teeth, or I let her get overtired she now goes off to sleep with only a minutes grizzle. Naps and bedtime. It was hard to hear her cry, but now so worth it. I hope it goes well for you, just be consistent. Fingers crossed :)


----------



## Boo44

Ok I may give that a go thanks Noelle. I think the 10.30 came from (historically) learning that the longer you push that first nap, the less likely they are to wake early in the morning. However I think we've proved that not to be the case haha. 10am may be a good thing then I can get his second nap earlier which will suit his child carers better too :)

What is charlotte's nap routine these days? X


----------



## Noelle610

Ours looks something like this :)

6:30am wake
9:00am-10:00am nap 1
1:30pm-3:00pm nap 2
7pm bedtime

I'm loving this schedule!


----------



## bananaz

Noelle610 said:


> Ours looks something like this :)
> 
> 6:30am wake
> 9:00am-10:00am nap 1
> 1:30pm-3:00pm nap 2
> 7pm bedtime
> 
> I'm loving this schedule!

Wow she'll go down after only being awake for 2.5 hours? I would LOVE a schedule like that. Right now our schedule looks like this...

6:00am wake
???? totally random
7:00pm bedtime

Damn these nap transitions :growlmad:


----------



## Tess.ie

Noelle our day is much like your schedule, except for a 6.30ish bedtime, but Chloe keeps waking every 20-45 mins after she goes to bed and does that till her first feed round 10ish. Not necessarily having to go to her each time she cries but she is maybe waking between sleep cycles. Would 6pm bed be better?


----------



## polaris

DS's schedule was very similar to Charlotte's, except that he was always awake by 6 a.m. at the latest and usually in bed by 6.30 p.m. Naps were 9 a.m. and 1 p.m. so far as I can remember (but maybe 1.30, not sure now).

DD's schedule is similar except that she tends to sleep later in the mornings.
At the moment at 8.5 months:
Wakes: usually between 7 and 7.30.
Nap 1: 10 to 11 (if she wakes earlier than usual she will nap 9.30 to 11)
Nap 2: 2 to 3.30
Bedtime: 7 p.m.
What happens after that is totally unpredictable from night to night! But at least she's in a good routine in the daytime now!


----------



## seaweed eater

Good luck Stephie and Twister. Boo, so glad tonight went better :hugs:

I hate that feeling of being nervous about bedtime. I've been feeling that every day lately. :(

Stephie, I can't say for sure that the Monday night fiasco was due to teething pain, although it seems likely given that the tooth cut the next morning -- but Munchkin did settle when held and then scream when put down. So I don't think the pattern you are describing is inconsistent with teething. But I think it is consistent with a lot of other things as well. Sorry, that's about the least helpful response I could have written, maybe?

Last night wasn't bad. We gave a dose of ibuprofen at 7:30 and LO woke once before 3:30, but then every 45-60 mins. 3:30 is when the dose was supposed to wear off, so I'm thinking it may not be a coincidence? I don't know how to tell whether to give him another one. He was actually not difficult to put down, just, as NN said, never seemed to really sleep deeply afterward. Will probably give a second dose after 8 hours tonight.


----------



## Noelle610

bananaz said:


> Noelle610 said:
> 
> 
> Ours looks something like this :)
> 
> 6:30am wake
> 9:00am-10:00am nap 1
> 1:30pm-3:00pm nap 2
> 7pm bedtime
> 
> I'm loving this schedule!
> 
> Wow she'll go down after only being awake for 2.5 hours? I would LOVE a schedule like that. Right now our schedule looks like this...
> 
> 6:00am wake
> ???? totally random
> 7:00pm bedtime
> 
> Damn these nap transitions :growlmad:Click to expand...

I know, I know. The experts would say I should stretch that first awake time to at least 3 hours but this just works well for her. And I like the break, honestly.


----------



## Noelle610

Tess.ie said:


> Noelle our day is much like your schedule, except for a 6.30ish bedtime, but Chloe keeps waking every 20-45 mins after she goes to bed and does that till her first feed round 10ish. Not necessarily having to go to her each time she cries but she is maybe waking between sleep cycles. Would 6pm bed be better?

Try 6pm. Since she's younger she may need a shorter wake time :)


----------



## Noelle610

polaris said:


> DS's schedule was very similar to Charlotte's, except that he was always awake by 6 a.m. at the latest and usually in bed by 6.30 p.m. Naps were 9 a.m. and 1 p.m. so far as I can remember (but maybe 1.30, not sure now).
> 
> DD's schedule is similar except that she tends to sleep later in the mornings.
> At the moment at 8.5 months:
> Wakes: usually between 7 and 7.30.
> Nap 1: 10 to 11 (if she wakes earlier than usual she will nap 9.30 to 11)
> Nap 2: 2 to 3.30
> Bedtime: 7 p.m.
> What happens after that is totally unpredictable from night to night! But at least she's in a good routine in the daytime now!

A good routine during the day is great... You can have some predictable alone time!


----------



## Noelle610

Seaweed, defintely the ibuprofin!


----------



## seaweed eater

Twister, how's it going? :hugs:


----------



## polaris

Noelle610 said:


> polaris said:
> 
> 
> DS's schedule was very similar to Charlotte's, except that he was always awake by 6 a.m. at the latest and usually in bed by 6.30 p.m. Naps were 9 a.m. and 1 p.m. so far as I can remember (but maybe 1.30, not sure now).
> 
> DD's schedule is similar except that she tends to sleep later in the mornings.
> At the moment at 8.5 months:
> Wakes: usually between 7 and 7.30.
> Nap 1: 10 to 11 (if she wakes earlier than usual she will nap 9.30 to 11)
> Nap 2: 2 to 3.30
> Bedtime: 7 p.m.
> What happens after that is totally unpredictable from night to night! But at least she's in a good routine in the daytime now!
> 
> A good routine during the day is great... You can have some predictable alone time!Click to expand...

LOL, some predictable one-on-one time with my three year old! No but a good routine during the day is still good, even if I can barely remember what alone time is!


----------



## bananaz

LO only had one hour-long nap today and has been really grumpy and tired all afternoon. I'm wondering if it would be appropriate to put her to bed a little early, and if so, how early? A half hour? An hour? I realize this is probably a silly question but I usually just stick with her bedtime regardless of how the day went. Given how she's acting I'd put her in bed right now if I thought I could get away with it lol


----------



## Aimee4311

Tonight I've tried 2 things new with Josalyn.

1. I didn't let her nurse herself into oblivion like normal. Normally I get her mostly sleepy, then she wants the boob again for comfort, so I give it to her. Then I chill in bed with her playing on the internet on my phone for 30-45 mins while she's happily latched. Not tonight! I left my phone in the other room, put her to sleep without the boob and laid her down.

That leads me to 2. I laid her on her stomach. I've only done this once before, and I'm wondering if part of the reason for all the wake ups is because she's uncomfortable. 

Of course I'm paranoid about her sleeping on her belly even though she's 6 months old. She's only been in there alone 10 minutes now and I've already checked to make sure she's still breathing twice! :dohh:


----------



## seaweed eater

Bananaz, I would have said at least half an hour, I think, but that's just a guess. What did you end up doing?

Aimee, I know what you mean about belly sleeping. It still makes me nervous, especially since we had to stop using the Angelcare for now (since he sleeps up at the top of the crib and it keeps going off) and he doesn't know how to roll back yet. But he does sleep better that way. I hope Josalyn does too. It's really good that she was able to fall asleep without the boob tonight! :thumbup:


----------



## Aimee4311

It wasn't painless, but it was better than I thought it would be! I've never refused when I knew that was what she wanted til now. Three times as she was drifting off she started rooting, but I didn't give it to her. So she started screaming. But each screaming session was shorter than the last. So I'm hoping this semi-night boob weaning won't be too painful!


----------



## bananaz

Aimee4311 said:


> Tonight I've tried 2 things new with Josalyn.
> 
> 1. I didn't let her nurse herself into oblivion like normal. Normally I get her mostly sleepy, then she wants the boob again for comfort, so I give it to her. Then I chill in bed with her playing on the internet on my phone for 30-45 mins while she's happily latched. Not tonight! I left my phone in the other room, put her to sleep without the boob and laid her down.
> 
> That leads me to 2. I laid her on her stomach. I've only done this once before, and I'm wondering if part of the reason for all the wake ups is because she's uncomfortable.
> 
> Of course I'm paranoid about her sleeping on her belly even though she's 6 months old. She's only been in there alone 10 minutes now and I've already checked to make sure she's still breathing twice! :dohh:

Good luck! Those are some big changes, I hope you see good results :thumbup:


----------



## bananaz

seaweed eater said:


> Bananaz, I would have said at least half an hour, I think, but that's just a guess. What did you end up doing?

I was going to do an hour but she got a second wind after her bath so it ended up being just a half hour early. She was soooo ready to go down though, she conked out immediately. Here's hoping she doesn't wake a half hour early!


----------



## seaweed eater

Glad it was better than you thought. Hopefully it will be even easier from here!


----------



## Aimee4311

I don't want to jinx it, but it's already been longer than it normally is before her first wake up. She's been asleep an hour and its usually 45 minutes. Fingers crossed!

Bananaz- I hope she doesn't wake up early!


----------



## stephie_corin

Hi Aimee! That's great news :)

We had a predictably bad night. Around midnight I bought him into our bed and ended up snuggling and feeding and rocking in bed most of the night. I know it's not ideal but I'm so tired, just being able to lie down and feed him makes a difference.

I feel like I'm textbook doing everything wrong at the moment but I need to do those things to survive.

Twister how did the sleep training go?


----------



## stephie_corin

bananaz said:


> seaweed eater said:
> 
> 
> Bananaz, I would have said at least half an hour, I think, but that's just a guess. What did you end up doing?
> 
> I was going to do an hour but she got a second wind after her bath so it ended up being just a half hour early. She was soooo ready to go down though, she conked out immediately. Here's hoping she doesn't wake a half hour early!Click to expand...

I suspect she will wake up at her usual time, I find with Cully his sleep is like a pie that's always the same size, just cut into different sized slices during the day and night. If he has really short naps I've put him down at 530 and long naps at 7 and his waketime is the same. Good luck!! (One 1 hour nap?? That's rough!)


----------



## stephie_corin

seaweed eater said:


> Stephie, I can't say for sure that the Monday night fiasco was due to teething pain, although it seems likely given that the tooth cut the next morning -- but Munchkin did settle when held and then scream when put down. So I don't think the pattern you are describing is inconsistent with teething. But I think it is consistent with a lot of other things as well. Sorry, that's about the least helpful response I could have written, maybe?
> 
> Last night wasn't bad. We gave a dose of ibuprofen at 7:30 and LO woke once before 3:30, but then every 45-60 mins. 3:30 is when the dose was supposed to wear off, so I'm thinking it may not be a coincidence? I don't know how to tell whether to give him another one. He was actually not difficult to put down, just, as NN said, never seemed to really sleep deeply afterward. Will probably give a second dose after 8 hours tonight.

Not unhelpful at all! Thank you! I didn't end up giving pain medication. I can actually see the teeth under his gums, it's so strange, but they haven't cut through yet. 

How many teeth does your boy have? Have any popped through yet? I hope tonight is better for you! X


----------



## Aimee4311

Hi Stephie! Sorry it was a bad night. :hugs: 

Josalyn slept 2 hours before her first wake up. 2! :happydance: Josiah and I actually had some time together (minus me going and checking her breathing every 5-10 minutes :blush: )


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## stephie_corin

Aimee, I do that too! We have a video monitor and if its been an hour since he woke I stare intently at the screen and if I don't see him breathing I have to go check (because who would believe our babies are actually sleeping, right!) 

Glad you guys had some nice adult time :) xxx


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## Twister

Hi everyone!

Sleep training went great. It was so unbelievably hard but she slept so much better when she was finally asleep.

She woke half an hour after falling asleep as usual and it took 3 attempts of cc to get her back to sleep properly. Every time she fell asleep she'd wake 5 mins later. It was so hard not to go in and nurse her. Eventually she went to sleep at 8pm and stayed asleep till just before midnight when she woke for a feed, and then slept till 4am when she woke for another feed! Then slept till 7am! She also settled really well after the feeds when I put her back in her cot and didn't cry like she usually does.


----------



## MrsButterfly

Yay twister! Bet you feel great for some sleep too.


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## Boo44

Twister that is so great! Well done mama :)


----------



## stephie_corin

Wow, what great progress!! That's awesome twister, really happy for you.


----------



## Twister

Thank you:)


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## polaris

Twister, that is fantastic progress! Yay!!!

Well Clara wasn't teething after all, or not just teething anyway. She has chicken pox. Oh well, I guess I knew she was more than likely going to come down with it. She had another miserable night last night but she has a couple of spots now and is in a much better mood this morning. Have cut her fingernails to the quick in preparation for the scratching though. Poor mite. She now has chicken pox, still a little bit of conjunctivitis, and probably teething too.


----------



## mrssunshine78

That is great twister, what a difference!

Stephie can totally understand it being easier to bring baby into your bed, we had to do that last night too, she woke at 315, and wouldn't go back to sleep unless she was laid on top of me getting stroked :dohh: eventually back to sleep at 430, then because I moved at 530 because I was just so uncomfortable I woke her :dohh: now she's having a nap, and I'm having my first dose of caffeine!


----------



## mrssunshine78

polaris said:


> Twister, that is fantastic progress! Yay!!!
> 
> Well Clara wasn't teething after all, or not just teething anyway. She has chicken pox. Oh well, I guess I knew she was more than likely going to come down with it. She had another miserable night last night but she has a couple of spots now and is in a much better mood this morning. Have cut her fingernails to the quick in preparation for the scratching though. Poor mite. She now has chicken pox, still a little bit of conjunctivitis, and probably teething too.

Oh no poor Clara!


----------



## stephie_corin

Polaris that is terrible! I wish it were teeth! Hoping for a speedy recovery.

Sunshine, C has to lie on top of me too sometimes... The things we do huh! Sorry to hear you had a bad night too! X


----------



## Noelle610

Twister, so happy for you girl!

Polaris, so sorry to hear Clara has the pox! That explains the poor sleep.... Hopefully she improves quickly :hugs:


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## Twister

Thank you everyone. Currently doing cc for her second nap. For her first nap she didn't even cry and was asleep within 5minutes then slept for 90minutes but she's putting up a bit of a fight for this one.


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## Noelle610

The second nap is usually harder for some reason. The drive to sleep is less strong or something. Stick with it, you're doing so well!


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## bananaz

*stephie* - Sorry for the rough night. Sometimes you hve to do whatever it takes to get some sleep.

*Twister* - Yay, I'm so glad CC is helping. Keep it up!!

So I guess the early bedtime wasn't such a great idea because LO got up at 4:45 :coffee: 

She also started crying in her sleep a few times last night, which was very odd. Maybe she was just overtired.


----------



## Noelle610

Sounds like overtired bananaz :(


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## stephie_corin

Oh bananaz I'm sorry! That sux! Lots of chocolate for you today :)

I ended up caving and giving C paracetamol after he was crying and almost inconsolable tonight. I gave him a dose for a 3kg baby (he is almost 12 kg!) as I was nervous but it seems to have taken the edge off his teething pain (if that is what it is!) as he seems to be in the deepest sleep. He hasn't twitched once in 1.5 hours!

Good luck tonight everyone xxx


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## Twister

Tonight seems so much harder than last night. She lets out this ear piercing scream when I leave the room and gets so worked up :(


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## Tess.ie

Its hard Twister, it really is. Hugs. I had to keep reminding myself that if I gave up then the crying was all for nothing. You (and Jessica) can do it :)


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## Twister

Thank you. I keep telling my self "short term pain, long term gain".


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## Boo44

Big hugs twister you can do it xxx


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## Twister

I think she's getting there, still screaming but we are having a few seconds of quiet here and there.

Eta: boo your avatar is so cute!


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## Tess.ie

That's good, its such a relief when the gaps between cries get longer and the crying gets shorter :)


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## mellyboo

Awesome work twister!


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## Twister

Annnnnd she's asleep. Wonder if she will do her customary wake up after half an hour thing tonight.


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## Noelle610

Fingers crossed Twister!


----------



## mellyboo

Jordyn went to the dr today, shes doing something funny with her eyes only crossing one she passed the eye test he did but sending her to a specialist to be sure i think she might be doing it on purpose not sure she laughs when doing it.... I asked him about sleep and he told me to go ahead with ferber... which i need to master up the courage to do so... he also said some babys will do fine the first couple days with ferber then you'll have like 2 days where they try to really "test" you and might cry more then the previous nights that they'll get through it

He told me to buy some really soft tissue aha... his wife sat in the bathroom with the video monitor and cried apparently lol


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## Noelle610

I've heard that too melly. Sounds like he has a good sense of humor :rofl:


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## mellyboo

I'm so tired right now, I just dont understand why she was sleeping so good that week and then back to crap.. OH works nights so i wish he would be here to help me but i really need to figure out a way to get some rest and do this... specially before vacation in a little over a month we planned to do it when OH was on vacation dr made a good point some times going on vacation or something might screw them up for a bit and i might have a rough couple of days...so I dont no what to do..

Do i try to sleep train her before vacation or after ?

her bed time and naps are perfect i just lay her down she goes to sleep after a bit no crying... i just havent figured out why the night times are so difficult for her to settle


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## Noelle610

Wait until after. :hugs:


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## mellyboo

Noelle610 said:


> Wait until after. :hugs:

Will do I've lived with it this long i can do another month-ish.. she may even surprise us and we won't need.


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## seaweed eater

Bananaz, sorry about the early wakeup and crying :hugs: I hope tonight is better!

Twister and Aimee, glad to hear about the progress :happydance: Twister, I hope tonight goes well!

Polaris, sorry to hear about Clara's chicken pox :( :hugs: I hope she is all the way better soon. I bet that will be a relief. You've had a tough stretch.

Melly, hang in there until after vacation :hugs: I hope she starts sleeping better on her own and you don't end up having to worry about it!

We had a good night last night. Nursed at 1:30 and 4:30 and then restless until 6:30. I didn't give a second dose of ibuprofen after all because at 4:30 it seemed pointless, but maybe I should have. This restlessness seems to be a hallmark of teething for us. I haven't known him to do it before this past week. Not screaming but just low-intensity fussing, and often waking up 5-10 minutes after falling asleep. If there is an upside, I guess it's that at least he is having some practice at self-settling.


----------



## Noelle610

mellyboo said:


> Noelle610 said:
> 
> 
> Wait until after. :hugs:
> 
> Will do I've lived with it this long i can do another month-ish.. she may even surprise us and we won't need.Click to expand...

Wait, you have a month?! Go for it!


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## Noelle610

That sounds like a good night seaweed. We get a lot of restlessness with teething too.


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## NotNic

Boo!!! Congrats!! How are you feeling? I agree that avatar is too cute!

Twister - sounds like you are doing a great job. Keep with it. I know so many babies who've been transformed by sleep training. I have a good feeling for you. 

Polaris - hope Clara feels better soon. Chicken pox scares me. After a rash scare at 10 weeks I am very careful to check Finlay, and I dread discovering the pox! Is your son recovered now? My mum said the three of us had it in shifts for 6/7 weeks. I remember being quarantined on and off because I was at school when my sisters got it. Dealing with weeks of it gives me nightmares!

So I'm now officially a working mum. Nursery is going well but F is knackered! Again today he had three naps. He slept through til 6.10 last night which is great. I don't think he's having enough day sleep but we'll see how tomorrow goes.

Also before I forget Bananaz did I miss our monthly check in for the babies? I like seeing what they're all doing.


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## seaweed eater

Oh and I knew I forgot someone. Stephie -- he just cut his first tooth on Tues, one of the bottom incisors. I bet he is working on the second one, but it's hard to tell. Personally I would feel comfortable giving acetaminophen when you are just not sure what's going on...especially a partial dose. It is ok for very young babies, as you said, and I think it's easier on their stomachs than ibuprofen. I'm glad it seemed to help C. Hope tonight goes well.


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## Noelle610

Boo i just saw!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yayayay!


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## seaweed eater

Oh my gosh! Congrats Boo!!!


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## Boo44

Ahh thanks girls :)

It was a 'surprise' we were thinking of aiming for another to be born next summer, but if this goes ok then it would be January - which is only an 18 month age gap, and has me totally freaked out! Not sure what to think at the moment!


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## Boo44

Oh and I don't want to get fat again :( And i feel really nauseous!

But apart from that.....!! Lol


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## seaweed eater

Sooo exciting. Did you have a lot of nausea with Jack? I think I slept like 13 hours a day first trimester. Certainly wouldn't have that luxury this time around...


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## Boo44

Yes a lot of nausea until 14 wks last time :( Not vomiting just felt awful. It started bang on 6 weeks again this time. I was hoping I'd escape it!


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## Twister

Congrats boo!


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## polaris

Congratulations Boo! Very exciting news!

Twister, :hugs:, it is so horrible going through the process of CC, stick with it though, the most important thing now is just to make a firm commitment to be totally consistent with it even if it gets worse before it gets better.

Seaweed - that is how Clara is with teething a lot of the time, not screaming crying, but just not able to settle properly, going half way to sleep and then waking up crying/moaning, and frequent wakings. She's even worse at the moment with the chicken pox even though she's actually in good form during the day. I'm just dreading the next couple of days when they start to get itchy.


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## bananaz

OMG Boo, I'm so so excited for you!! Congrats!


----------



## bananaz

NotNic said:


> Also before I forget Bananaz did I miss our monthly check in for the babies? I like seeing what they're all doing.

Nope you haven't missed it. I was posting them at the beginning of the month, but I think last time jade1991 made a 11-12 check-in thread a week early so that's why it feels like it's been a while. I'll probably just go ahead and do one next week, I get impatient :haha:


----------



## Twister

She woke after 3 hours, about 3 times in the space of half an hour but was asleep within 5 mins for all of those wakings.. So far so good. Sticking to not feeding until after 6 hours, I feel comfortable doing this because I know she can go at least that long without a feed at night. Two days in and I am already noticing improvements.


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## seaweed eater

That's great to hear, Twister :thumbup:


----------



## seaweed eater

Ugh, LO is really undertired tonight. His bedtime has crept later and he's still fighting it. I think he's undertired, not overtired or something else, because he's not fussy or acting tired at all before I take him to bed. He's on two naps, and they're not that long, so it's not too much daytime sleep.

The 5:20 car nap is obviously a problem, but there's nothing I can do about it. The longer wind down doesn't seem to have helped. I guess I should try stimulating him more right after we get home? Usually we just chill at home until bedtime. Maybe we should find something more tiring to do. Any other ideas? :shrug:


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## stephie_corin

Boo, congrats!!! How exciting for you!

Melly, good luck with the sleep training if you decide to do it before vacation. My only concern is you might have to redo it after vacation if you start now? I don't have any personal experience though.

NN, good luck at work! I hope you are enjoying it. Are you back full time?

Twister, so glad to hear your progress! You too Aimee :)

SE, are you picking him up from daycare at 5? Is there anyway they could get him to nap earlier in the day so he isn't tired in the car? Otherwise sounds like you might need to have a little dance party In the living room when you get home! Or some water play?

Polaris I hope your daughter is better soon.

We had a really good night. I'm not sure if it was the paracetamol but that's the only thing I've changed. By the way is paracetamol the same as the a..... (Sorry i cant remember the word) medicine? I gave him a dream feed around 10 and he slept until 2am! He was up the rest of the night on and off and in our bed but that is huge progress! Still no teeth but his gums are swollen so I'm sure they will be through any day now (hoping they will be through!!)

ETA- Dr Google has just informed me that paracetamol is the same drug! I'm glad as I wasn't looking forward to trying to spell the other one to the pharmacist!


----------



## Aimee4311

Seaweed- maybe the jumperoo? (I don't remember if y'all have one or not) Or taking him outside to play since there's a lot to look at/touch?

Josalyn went down with no fuss without the boob tonight! And she's been asleep over 2 hours and no wake up yet! :happydance: Sleeping on her belly seems to be working for her!


----------



## stephie_corin

Aimee that's so great!! What time do you do your last feed? How does she fall asleep now? Completely by herself?


----------



## Aimee4311

Tonight I did the last feed at 8:45 and she was asleep right at 9. She unlatched herself, still awake and was kicking around. I turned her onto her belly and patted her butt for about 45 seconds and she was gone! 

She's never self- settled to get to sleep, though she can during the night when she wants. I've seen/heard her wake up (hard not to notice when you share a bed), talk to herself, kick and look around, then fall back to sleep. She just won't to it to fall asleep for bedtime!


----------



## stephie_corin

Aimee that's so impressive, I wish I could break my son's feed to sleep association. I can put him down for naps sometimes without nursing but his last nap and bedtime there is no way! Well done :)


----------



## Sunnie1984

Eeeek congratulations Boo! So excited for you (and a wee bit jealous!). You'll be absolutely fine, apparently going from 0 to 1 is so much more difficult that going from 1 to 2. :flower:

Ok nights here, but we've joined the early waking club, 5am is not morning! :shrug:

x


----------



## Boo44

Ooh sunnie are you TTC?


----------



## Noelle610

Seaweed, is he crawling? I definitely think you could work on physically tiring him out.

Yay for so many great nights for a terrible little sleepers! ;)


----------



## stephie_corin

I just felt in Cs mouth and two little teeth have just broken the gum! I'm talking a tiny itty bitty piece of tooth, but it's there nonetheless... Does that mean the worst is over or will the teeth push through all the way causing more pain? When do I say his teeth came in (for his baby book - is it today or one day will I wake up and a big bit of tooth will have been pushed through?) I'm not sure what to expect!

No wonder his sleep has been even worse, poor little man getting two teeth! I'm definitely giving panadol tonight! X

ETA - is paracetamol a sedative?? I know rationally some pain relief is no big deal but I'm so anxious about it. I'm sure sleep deprivation is not helping how I feel about it... But I'm worried he will need paracetamol to get to sleep or even worse pain is coming and I've wasted my chance to use it.

Edited again to add - its definitely not a sedative! Ha! He's been up twice now since falling asleep an hour and a half ago. But he's calm and relaxed.


----------



## angelwings7

Hi Ladies

Just after some advice please? My lo one has silent reflux so i have his cot at an angle, so from 2am onwards he wakes me up every hour because he's upside down in his cot or sideways and hits the bars. I just can't figure out why he's so restless towards the end of the night, I know he's not cold because we have a heater in his room, could it be because he's at an angle? I'm just not sure what to do.


----------



## Twister

Another decent night again! she woke at 12 and 4 to feed and re-settled great again, woke at 6:30am for the day. Naps have been a bit crazy today. She woke early from her first nap which always throws the rest of the day out. Currently doing cc to get her down for another nap. We're going to a wedding reception this afternoon and I really wanted her to nap well since she will probably be going to bed slightly later than usual. Hopefully tonight won't be to bad!


----------



## polaris

Stephie, yay for two teeth! In my experience once they have broken through the gum the worst is over. I would definitely count today as the first tooth for the baby book because it just gradually grows bigger from now, there isn't any other definite moment that you could say the tooth was through (I remember wondering that with Thomas's first tooth too!).

Angelwings - maybe try him without the angle and see if it makes his sleep better or worse? If he can't settle lying flat though you might just have to wait it out until he learns to manouver himself back to a comfortable position. Would you consider putting him down on his tummy? It's so hard to know what to do for the best.

Seaweed - DS was always very sensitive to car naps and my guess would be that this is the culprit for you. How long is your car journey? I always went to great lengths to keep DS awake, e.g. talking to him continually, singing nursery rhymes at full volume, etc. He just wasn't able to fall asleep for his next nap/bedtime after even a two minute car nap. I do know how hard it is to keep them awake in the car - however this does improve as they get older and it becomes easier to keep them awake for car journeys.

Aimee - yay for self-settling! That's really good progress.

Twister - so glad you had another good night. Hope you have a nice day at the wedding reception.

Poor Clara is just all over the place with the chicken pox. I'm just going with the flow for now obviously, we'll see where we are at when she's better.


----------



## stephie_corin

Thanks so much Polaris, as always :) I really hope she feels better soon, chicken pox sounds so nasty.


----------



## Sunnie1984

Boo44 said:


> Ooh sunnie are you TTC?

Yup. I'm crazy but have been for 6 months! DD was sleeping like a rock then! 

About to go see a specialist, so not looking forward to being prodded and poked, but needs must xxx


----------



## Noelle610

Stephanie, once the tooth is through, the worst is over! I would try ibuprofin - it's an anti-imflammatory and works much better with teething. It's not a sedative either.

Angelwings, I was thinking the same thing as Polaris... Are yo open to tummy sleep?

Polaris, I'm sorry Clara is still not well! Hope she gets better soon.

Sunnie, good luck!!!

Twister, I could not be happier for your good nights :hugs: Stay consistent and long may it continue!


----------



## Boo44

I echo what Noelle says about ibuprofen - it's fantastic for teething :) And neither are addictive or sedative. So don't worry at all about him needing them to sleep x


----------



## Boo44

Sunnie1984 said:


> Boo44 said:
> 
> 
> Ooh sunnie are you TTC?
> 
> Yup. I'm crazy but have been for 6 months! DD was sleeping like a rock then!
> 
> About to go see a specialist, so not looking forward to being prodded and poked, but needs must xxxClick to expand...

As in you started when seren was 2 months?! Wow mama!! I really hope it all works out ok for you xxxx


----------



## Twister

Despite crappy naps and staying up later than usual, tonight she cried for less than 10minutes before falling asleep, here's for a good night. Thanks for the support everyone:hugs:


----------



## polaris

Yay Twister, that is brilliant. Hope you have a good night tonight too.

Well Clara has finally gone to sleep at 9.50 p.m. - started trying to put her down at 7. What an awful evening. God love her, she kept almost falling asleep and then twitching and jerking and rolling round and pulling at her hair and waking herself up and crying. I'm sure it is the spots starting to itch now, she has loads on her scalp. I ended up getting her up for a bit because she was just getting so distressed, I smothered her in calomine and let her play with my mobile phone which never fails to cheer her up. However then she got quite sick all over herself which I'm sure was because she had been comfort nursing so much. Got her changed and ended up rocking her to sleep which is not something she has ever needed and is actually very tiring with a baby of this age! Fingers crossed she sleeps more than 45 minutes!!


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## Twister

:hugs: Polaris. I hope Clara is feeling better soon.


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## diggory77

Ahh I've been watching this thread for a while. Can anyone help?

my little girl co slept until she was nine weeks, one night I put her in her cot, swaddled and played a light show and gave her a dummy and she self soothed. This went on until two weeks ago. She'd always have one feed at 5am but would sleep 7pm-10.30am without fail before this. Sometimes even until midday! Id never slept so well! It would take around 10 minutes for her to fall asleep with her routine of bath, pyjamas, swaddle, bed. 

She now wakes at around 6am-7am, then her daytime naps are not too bad right now, around 30 mins-1 hour in length and roughly around 8am, midday and 4/5ish pm. sometimes she'll fight them but she tend to fall asleep in my arms. But on a night its awful now, she's obviously tired so we moved her bedtime from 7.30 to 6.30. Sometimes she'll fight sleep but most often she'll calmly lie in my arms looking around. Sometimes I lightly hold my hand over her eyes to limit stimulation but it doesn't work as often as it use to. It's like she's trying to get to sleep but she just can't drop off?! Then she gets upset and frustrated. I don't know what else to do. Sometimes its taking me an hour and a half until she finally drops off. If I put her in her cot sleepy but awake she wakes right up and screams her head off.

She's possibly going through the sleep regression now, I'm just dreading putting her down at bedtime. She's waking several times throughout the night for feeds/comfort and is extremely clingy just with me.

Any advice?
Xx


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## seaweed eater

Aww Polaris, I'm so sorry. That feeling when the baby still isn't asleep hours after you started trying to put them down is just horrible. :hugs: I hope she sleeps well tonight and that things are less itchy soon.

Thanks for the advice about car naps. It's so funny, when he was younger he used to be able to go down for bed just fine maybe half an hour after a proper nap, if his last nap ended up too late. Now five-minute car naps are messing us up! We're usually in the car at 5:05 and it takes about 20 minutes to get home at that time. There's not much I can do from the front seat to keep him awake. Music makes him fall asleep faster, so I usually play radio news, which irritates him. When he was younger talking to him would never work but maybe now that he's older he'll be more responsive to it. I'll try.

Anyway, I'll also try the jumper and going outdoors with him in the evening. And dance parties in our apartment! :thumbup: He did go down much better on Thursday night after spending most of his last WT at a very stimulating restaurant with my friends. Maybe I'll see if they want to do more of that. :lol: He's not crawling yet so I can't use that to tire him out.

Twister, so glad to hear things are going so well :happydance: hope she sleeps well for you tonight!

Aimee, I just knew Josalyn would adapt well! I'm so happy to hear it. :yipee:

Angelwings, whenever we've tried slanting LO's mattress very much when he's had a cold, he has woken up from rolling down. Would you consider trying a swing or a bouncy chair until your LO can lie relatively flat? I know that moving from those back to the crib is a whole other thing, but it would be a way of at least getting sleep for now. I hope the reflux is better soon, I think you're at about the age where it starts to get better for some babies :hugs:

Stephie, TWO teeth! Congrats!! :happydance: I hope Culver's sleep improves now that they're out. Munchkin has still clearly been suffering with his, but only one is out so far so I'm sure the other one is at the most painful stage. Well done C for getting it over with in one shot!

Sunnie, good luck with your TTC specialist, I hope you get some answers :hugs:

Diggory, sorry you are struggling :hugs: how long is she usually awake between naps during the day? If she's sleeping only 30-60 minutes then her WT must be around 3-4 hours to get the schedule that you described. That is very long for a baby her age. I wonder if she is getting overtired by bedtime and that's why you are having trouble. Have you ever tried putting her down for naps sooner, like 1.5 hours after she woke up? What happens if you try that?


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## seaweed eater

Quickest settle ever tonight. 10 mins of nursing and right to sleep. I don't know whether it has to do with the 2 good naps, no late car nap, trip outside in the evening followed by reading lots of stories, but it's very tempting to think it does. Makes me hopeful that we can improve things further just by tweaking the routine, without crying :)


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## Aimee4311

Diggory- I've got no advice for you because I'm a newbie with working on this sleep stuff, but good luck! :hugs: 

Seaweed- I'm glad Munchkin settled so quickly! Hopefully the routine tweaking works! 

Tonight was the third night of not nursing to sleep. She resisted more tonight than last night, but it was still only about 10 minutes. As I was typing this though, she woke up- about 50 minutes after going down. :dohh: 3 days of a 2 hour stretch was too much to hope for so soon I guess! 

But she's asleep again now, so we'll see!


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## stephie_corin

Wow teething is so tough! I'm exhausted. Despite 2 x doses of paracetamol he was awake all night. I haven't been giving him a full dose but the night before last a half dose seemed to work. I slept less than an hour last night. There must be some biological change that happens when you have a child that let's you go on without any sleep. His teething has coincided with DH being really busy at work and travelling this week. I allowed myself a few minutes to cry into my pillow this morning before pulling myself together. 

I think I'll try a stronger dose tonight, or ibuprofen. Culver obviously thinks its all a big joke though. In the middle of the night after walking with him and rocking him I felt him start to shake in my arms. I panicked thinking he was having some kind of fit only to see him laughing in his sleep!

Polaris, sorry you had such a bad night. I know the feeling of rocking a heavy baby to sleep. One bonus is a nice arm and shoulder workout!

Twister, amazing progress again. Congrats!

SE, I'm glad munchkin went down ok for you. Do you give him toys in the car? I give Cully Lamaze toys whichx you can clip to the car seat strap and I've tied a little mirror against the back seat so he can see himself. It keeps him amused when we are in the car.

Diggory I agree with SE, I think the awake times are much too long. Try putting your LO down earlier.


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## stephie_corin

Aimee we cross posted. Well done on not nursing to sleep! Ill keep my fingers crossed for you that she sleeps well xxx


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## seaweed eater

Aimee, I'm glad things are still going well. I really think this will pay off for you. :hugs:

Wow, Stephie, less than an hour?! :hugs: No wonder you cried for a few minutes this morning. Poor you, hon! I would definitely try ibuprofen tonight. Acetaminophen/paracetemol has worked well for my LO for colds but ibuprofen was much better for teething.

He does have some toys attached to his carseat. It's very hard to keep him awake if it's near naptime. I literally have to be in the backseat tickling him -- it's like trying to keep a newborn awake to finish nursing. :dohh: He just has a very strong association with sleeping in the car at the moment. Probably in part because he used to SCREAM in the car so we always used to try to take him at naptime so that he would be asleep and not miserable. Worked well for short, 5x-a-day naps, but not so much now.


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## Aimee4311

Stephie that does sound SO tough! You're one strong mamma! :hugs:


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## angelwings7

Polaris: I might try him on his tummy at an angle and see how he goes just because he still seems to vomit up his milk a bit. Thanks will let you know how I go.


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## stephie_corin

Thanks guys, I do hold him and lie with my eyes closed so I'm getting some rest even if its not sleep. And we did have a good night the night before which is why I'm not a heaving mess!

SE, Cully hated the car too! But we went the opposite route and only ever took him in the car when he was well fed and rested and had one parent in the back seat to entertain him. Ha! And to think we used to travel and be adventurous. Now an exciting trip is a car ride to the grocery store with daddy in the back seat making animal noises.


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## stephie_corin

Deleted - long rambley post about naps! X


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## Noelle610

diggory77 said:


> Ahh I've been watching this thread for a while. Can anyone help?
> 
> my little girl co slept until she was nine weeks, one night I put her in her cot, swaddled and played a light show and gave her a dummy and she self soothed. This went on until two weeks ago. She'd always have one feed at 5am but would sleep 7pm-10.30am without fail before this. Sometimes even until midday! Id never slept so well! It would take around 10 minutes for her to fall asleep with her routine of bath, pyjamas, swaddle, bed.
> 
> She now wakes at around 6am-7am, then her daytime naps are not too bad right now, around 30 mins-1 hour in length and roughly around 8am, midday and 4/5ish pm. sometimes she'll fight them but she tend to fall asleep in my arms. But on a night its awful now, she's obviously tired so we moved her bedtime from 7.30 to 6.30. Sometimes she'll fight sleep but most often she'll calmly lie in my arms looking around. Sometimes I lightly hold my hand over her eyes to limit stimulation but it doesn't work as often as it use to. It's like she's trying to get to sleep but she just can't drop off?! Then she gets upset and frustrated. I don't know what else to do. Sometimes its taking me an hour and a half until she finally drops off. If I put her in her cot sleepy but awake she wakes right up and screams her head off.
> 
> She's possibly going through the sleep regression now, I'm just dreading putting her down at bedtime. She's waking several times throughout the night for feeds/comfort and is extremely clingy just with me.
> 
> Any advice?
> Xx

Definitely sleep regression. It does pass. A few things that might help... The 6/7am wake-up is normal, so I'd get her up at that time. Sleeping 7pm-10am he was basically sleep the night and then into her first nap. You don't want to let her do this, though it's pleasant! It will mess with her natural rhythms. I'd work on naps and not letting her get overtired so that you can minimize the night wakings and fighting sleep. How long is she awake before you put her down? The three naps you're doing are perfect and the cat naps unfortunately are somewhat normal at this age.


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## diggory77

Thanks guys, so lovely I've got some support!

Noelle, thank you! I read that at this age her naps should be around 9am/12 /3pm. Her naps arent rigid times and i normally wait for her to tell me ehen shes ready by rubbing her eyes. Is that right or wrong? Some ladies suggest that's too long for her to be awake? Sometimes she has extra naps if we've been really busy. For her naps I guess she's awake between 2&3 hours before I pick her up, cuddle her and pop her dummy in. It takes her about ten mins to fall asleep, longer if she's overtired. I'm thinking that maybe her last nap is especially too late as this is the one she struggles to get off to sleep with the most. She nearly always wakes up grumpy and tired aswell.
I think what makes things even worse is that if I try to catch her day naps early or put her to bed earlier, I end up spending that long trying to get her to sleep!


In the night she's awake a maximum of 30 minutes before sleeping again, normally it's a case of breastfeeding her or just giving her a cuddle and she goes back to sleep.


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## stephie_corin

Hi Diggory, I think you should probably try 9, 12 and 3 (which is a better time than 4/5) but aim for a 1.5-2 hour maximum waketime. If she catnaps you might want to try 4 naps. My son was taking 4 naps at that age but he only slept max 45 mins but if you are getting hour long naps you might be able to get by on 3 - I'd go off her. You might need to give her a short cat nap in the late afternoon if the last nap is short and she hasn't been awake enough during the day - by this I mean you should keep a rough count of her total wake time during the day and it should be around 9 hours.

Noelle will know better than me though :)


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## stephie_corin

I think our teething dramas are over, at least until the next ones! I bought iboprufen today but we didn't end up needing to use it. He fell asleep quite well but it took me a long time to get him down.

I wrote a long post today about nap transitions but deleted it as I wanted to see how the rest of the day went. I'm going to see how tomorrow goes before I post about it as I think teething had an impact today.

P.s I'm so sad my baby has teeth! He's not meant to grow up :(


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## Noelle610

stephie_corin said:


> Hi Diggory, I think you should probably try 9, 12 and 3 (which is a better time than 4/5) but aim for a 1.5-2 hour maximum waketime. If she catnaps you might want to try 4 naps. My son was taking 4 naps at that age but he only slept max 45 mins but if you are getting hour long naps you might be able to get by on 3 - I'd go off her. You might need to give her a short cat nap in the late afternoon if the last nap is short and she hasn't been awake enough during the day - by this I mean you should keep a rough count of her total wake time during the day and it should be around 9 hours.
> 
> Noelle will know better than me though :)

I think this is spot on! Like I said, you girls don't even need me any more :haha:


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## seaweed eater

Diggory, I think Stephie gave you great advice. My LO was usually taking five half-hour naps at that age once I got his routine straightened out. Sometimes four, but never fewer than that.

I'm glad things are better, Stephie. :hugs: I hope the naps improve.

We had a so-so night. It's ok, LO was clearly uncomfortable and it wasn't nearly as bad as last Monday night. I was half expecting to see the second tooth this morning but obviously that would have been too much to ask. :haha:


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## Twister

Last night was the same as previous nights, woke at 12 and 4 for a feed. Don't feel comfortable doing cc at these times as I believe she's genuinely hungry.

Night 4 of Ferber doing intervals of 12,15 and 17 minutes. She's really fighting it tonight. Keeps going silent but starts again. It's been a busy day with lots of stimulation and again naps haven't been great which I think has something to do with it. Part of it may be her fighting it as well? Not sure if she's capable but I'm sure I read somewhere that on day 3/4 of Ferber they kind of figure out what's going on and fight a bit more against it? Or have I completely made that up? Lol.


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## Noelle610

Nope, that's right Twister! Sounds like it's going great.


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## polaris

Twister, I think I have read somewhere that some babies will "relapse" on nights 4 and/or 5 for whatever reason, before going back to sleeping better again.

Girls, I really hope none of your LOs get chicken pox until they are a bit older! I've just been through it with my 3.5 year old and it wasn't exactly pleasant but it wasn't too bad really. But poor Clara, this is just a nightmare. She is just so itchy and she is still getting millions of new spots so we aren't even at the peak yet. Last night was awful and she's only managed to have one nap today because she just can't get to sleep. She will fall asleep for two or three minutes and then just wake up screaming and clawing at her head and head butting and throwing herself round the cot and flailing her arms and legs. I just don't know how to help her. OH is up with her at the moment trying to settle her, thank God he is here tonight, I don't think I could have handled another night like last night on my own.


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## diggory77

Ah you girls are blooming brilliant! I haven't got her naps anywhere near spot on, as we've been swimming today and this always tires her out. But I made sure I put her to bed 1.5 hours after her last nap, guess what? Asleep in ten minutes!
X


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## seaweed eater

That's great, Diggory :happydance:

Keep it up, Twister. I'm sorry she is fighting but you are doing so well, just stay consistent. :hugs: My LO has a similar feeding schedule on good nights. I think that is reasonable at their age.

Polaris, I'm so sorry, that sounds so stressful. :hugs: I really hope you are past the worst of it soon and things start getting better.


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## Boo44

Ohhh Polaris that sounds truly awful :( I really hope she's over the worst soon xxx


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## Tess.ie

Polaris - Poor Clara, it must be awful for babies being so uncomfortable and not knowing why :( I hope she feels better soon

Twister - It does sound like you have things on the right track now, well done. Im sure that next week bedtimes will get even easier :)

I think we might be making progress....I have been working on an earlier bedtime, round 6.30 most nights. Tonight it was 6! And last night Chloe even slept a 4 hour stretch, yay, but it was from 1.30-5.30 and while she went back to sleep after a feed I couldnt. Typical! Fingers crossed she does a nice long stretch tonight. 
She does still seem to be waking up less than an hour after she goes to sleep. Any suggestions? The days are roughly - Wake 6.30, Nap 1 8.30/9ish-10.30ish, Nap 2 12.30/1ish-2ish, Bed 6.30ish. Would a shorter morning nap and a longer afternoon nap work better? 

Gosh without this thread and all you wonderful wise girls I would be totally lost!!


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## Noelle610

So happy to hear that Tess.ie!


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## seaweed eater

Tessie, so glad to hear about the progress :happydance: your schedule sounds great so I don't know what to suggest there. Except maybe try capping the total nap time at 3 hours? Mine is best on around 2 hours, but I know that's at the lower end. Maybe experiment with waking her a bit earlier on days when she's had a lot of nap time and see if it helps. I don't know, what do other people think?

Bedtime has been a mess here again tonight. Naps today were unusually bad too, which I'm sure made bedtime worse. It seems a lot like teething so I'm thinking it's just that. Discussed with DH -- after the second bottom incisor is through we'll revisit sleep training. Not until then. Hope it's soon.


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## stephie_corin

Polaris, I really feel so bad for you and your family. I'm a sorry Clara is struggling so much with the chicken pox.

Twister I think those feed times sound pretty reasonable. C always feeds at least twice overnight.

Diggory, glad naps went well!

Tess, we always have a wakeup exactly 45 minutes after going down. I'm not sure why but it seems to be pretty common. I haven't tried this personally but Baby Whisperer has an idea called nudge to sleep, or something like that, where you go in about five minutes before the expected wakeup and nudge them to slightly rouse them (not awake but so they stir) and it helps them slip into the next sleep cycle without waking. Apparently you do it for a few days and they should start sleeping through. C is very easy to get down after that first waking so I've never bothered trying anything.

SE, I really hope that tooth pops out for you soon!! I now have an understanding of how completely awful teething is! Did you give iboprufen again?

Cully is definitely over his teething and back to his usual sleep. Since implementing the dream feed he now does a good stretch from 10-1 which was so restorative for me last night. He feeds then sleeps another hour, feeds again and sleeps another hour but then from 3-530 he's up every 30-45 mins. I remember Noelle saying the early wakings were due to over tiredness. He's getting around 1.5-2 hours sleep a day. I usually aim to have him down by 6. Last night it was closer to seven but his naps where wacky yesterday due to teething. I'm not sure what tweaks I can do to his routine because if I extend his naps bedtime gets pushed out later, so the total sleep is the same. 

He's up 530-6 every day and naps at 8ish, 1130ish and 3ish and I've been extending the middle nap to about an hour by rocking him.

Is it just a matter of waiting it out? Or time to shake things up and try 2 naps?!?


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## seaweed eater

We gave ibuprofen and it still took nearly 2 hours to get him down. :( But I think part of it was overtiredness from terrible naps.

Are you sure C is not ready for two naps? Does he go down well for all his naps at the moment? Oh, I just noticed that you asked about that. Maybe...but I'm not sure what you are describing corresponds to needing two naps. I would expect a baby dropping a nap to fight naptimes and bedtime, not to have extra NWs.

IME it's the early wake up (done with sleeping) time that's really a reliable sign of overtiredness, not so much the frequent early morning night wakings, if that makes sense. But if Noelle disagrees with me, I'd trust her. :) All babies sleep more lightly during those hours so I think anything that disrupts their sleep earlier does so even more then. It sounds like he can stay asleep for maybe 2 cycles earlier but always just one toward the end. I am sad to say it since I know you are happy with nursing to sleep, but I would probably work on self-settling in whatever way you are comfortable doing.

But if you want to try two naps, he's old enough that he's probably going to transition soon anyway. If it's horrible you can always go back.


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## mrssunshine78

Polaris the chicken pox sounds awful, poor Clara. 

Jasmine's sleeping seems to be getting worse, I know it's not really bad like some, but it's still tiring. She's been waking 5-530, but waking in the night sometimes stirring for about an hour, usually self settles, but other times cries a lot so one of us goes in. She's just cut two teeth last week, she now has 8, so hoping for a little break now. 

Will someone have a little look at her schedule and see if you think there are any tweaks I could make please

Wakes 5-530
Nap 830-9 for about 1 hour
Nap 2-230 for an hour to 1 hour 30
Bed 7

She doesn't feed through the night anymore, I'm still bf and she has her last bf around 1830 and then feeds around 6am, she's on 3 solid meals with 2 bf, one around 10, the other around 130-2, I try my very best not to let her feed to sleep, but occasionally on an afternoon she does.


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## stephie_corin

Hi Sunshine! I'm no expert but could you cut shorter the am nap so she's getting slightly less day sleep and put her to bed earlier - like 630 - she might sleep a bit longer at night or it might help the night waking? Maybe make the second nap a bit earlier? Then she might be getting closer to 11-12 hours at night, which I think they are meant to have at your LOs age.

SE, sorry he was fighting bed time even with the pain relief! Thanks so much for the advice. He does fight naps and he shows tired signs really early (maybe 1.5 hour after waking) so I think the catnaps aren't cutting it any more. Tomorrow I might try extending naps and aiming for two naps. I just need him to sleep longer than 530am!

I've been trying the gentle removal method but he really fights it. He has such a strong suck to sleep association. PU/PD is hard too as he weighs almost 12kg and it kills my back! I'll persevere though. If anyone has any other gentle self settling techniques I would love to hear them.


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## mrssunshine78

Thanks stephie, will give that a try. I'm pretty sure she should be having longer to sleep at night, the 11-12 hours sounds right from my reading. 

I don't have advice on gentle sleep techniques, we just tend to rub lo's back and that mostly resettles her.


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## stephie_corin

I never understood the back rubbing thing, does she sleep on her tummy or do you do it while holding her? X


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## Tess.ie

Seaweed-teething and overtiredness is a horrendous combination, the worst! I had to sit up all night holding chloe about a week ago. There is light at the end of the tunnel though, Chloe's 2nd tooth came up about 5 days ago and last night for the first time in months she only woke twice, for feeds :) 10.30 and 3am then up for the day at 6.45. Lol she even slept better than I did :)
Hopefully munchkins teeth come up really soon.


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## mrssunshine78

stephie_corin said:


> I never understood the back rubbing thing, does she sleep on her tummy or do you do it while holding her? X

She sleeps on her tummy, has done since about 4 months because she just kept waking with trapped wind when she slept on her back


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## polaris

We had a really awful night last night. Poor Clara, I just felt so sorry for her. On top of the chicken pox, she had been awake since 11.50 a.m. so she was also totally overtired and wired. She just cried and tried to scratch herself and violent kicking and jerking and headbutting basically all night. We tried to settle her and walked around the house with her for seven hours and she slept fitfully for maybe an hour and a half of that time, then OH took her out in the car for a two hour car drive at 2 a.m. and thankfully that did allow her to sleep but she woke almost as soon as he got home. I then sat up with her on the couch until 7 a.m. with her feeding and crying and dozing for five minutes before waking up again. At 7 a.m. her brother got up so we were up for the day. But there is light at the end of the tunnel I hope! I put her down for a nap at 8.45 and she actually just went straight to sleep in the cot and is still asleep two hours later! I'm so relieved that she is actually able to get some sleep. Please let this mean that the worst is over!!


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## Noelle610

:hugs: for teething and poor sleep!


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## stephie_corin

Polaris that sounds like a nightmare. Make sure you and DH look after yourselves too. Big hugs xxx


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## seaweed eater

Ugh Polaris, I'm so sorry. Really really hope the worst is over. :hugs: :hugs: I hope you can get a nap in for yourself today somehow.


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## stephie_corin

Ahhhh... And just when I thought it was over. It took me three hours to get him down tonight. I finally gave some iboprufen at 9 and now he is asleep. So maybe he is still getting teething pain... He would fall asleep for 5-10 minutes then wake up moaning or crying. I tried nursing, rocking, walking, cuddling on our bed but every time he would wake crying. I feel guilty for medicating him as it looks like both teeth have cut through and it might also be milestone hitting that's causing the wakings. Anyway. Time to eat my cold dinner and crawl into bed and hope for a sleep miracle! Good luck everyone x


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## mellyboo

Update on Jords .. She's been actually doing super well only waking up twice a night which is weird because her routine is a hot mess right now we had her out Till 10 30 and I gave her a late nap since she would Be up late and she did amazing and slept amazing ever since then she wants 3 naps one cat nap in the afternoon usually I wouldn't like her going for naps after 4pm ... And I've been shutting her night light off she's been Doing 7 hour stretches and waking up at 830 for the day...


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## Noelle610

3 hours Steph?! That's awful. Maybe he'll sleep a nice long stretch for you. Enjoy dinner and sleep tight. 

Melly, that's great! Whatever works, right?


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## Radkat

stephie_corin said:


> Hi Sunshine! I'm no expert but could you cut shorter the am nap so she's getting slightly less day sleep and put her to bed earlier - like 630 - she might sleep a bit longer at night or it might help the night waking? Maybe make the second nap a bit earlier? Then she might be getting closer to 11-12 hours at night, which I think they are meant to have at your LOs age.
> 
> SE, sorry he was fighting bed time even with the pain relief! Thanks so much for the advice. He does fight naps and he shows tired signs really early (maybe 1.5 hour after waking) so I think the catnaps aren't cutting it any more. Tomorrow I might try extending naps and aiming for two naps. I just need him to sleep longer than 530am!
> 
> I've been trying the gentle removal method but he really fights it. He has such a strong suck to sleep association. PU/PD is hard too as he weighs almost 12kg and it kills my back! I'll persevere though. If anyone has any other gentle self settling techniques I would love to hear them.

Stephie - My LO settles pretty well with shush and pat. Well, sometimes as least... PU/PD doesn't really work for her bc she gets too asleep while picked up and then wakes back up when put down. Shush and pat seems to help her settle where she is.


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## Radkat

Polaris - Sounds like an awful night. I hope you can get a nap today.

Melly - Congrats. Sounds like things are going well. 

I have been following the thread, but haven't done an update recently, so here goes. LO is doing better at bedtime. Goes down with minimal crying at this point. In fact, last night was about 2 minutes of moaning/fussing and that was it. Until... She was up for about 30 minutes around 10:30. Standing up in the cosleeper. Then again from 1 until I fed her at 1:45. Then she was up again at 3:45. OH walked her, I did lots of shush and pat but she wouldn't resettle until I fed her at 5am. During that time, she would sleep for maybe 5 minutes, then up again crying, standing up and patting mama from her cosleeper. She slept for about 20 minutes after being fed, tried more shush and pat, then gave up and brought her into bed with us until I got her up at 7:30. The last few nights have been similar, but not quite this bad. 

We've been trying to stick to the nap routine of 2 hours from WU, then 2:15, 2:30 then 3 hours until bed. I do have a question about this. Depending on how long she naps, which can be 30 minute at each nap or 45-1:30-45, her bedtime varies a lot. Like 6:15 one night to 7:30 the next because of the schedule. Is this OK? It seems weird to have such a different bedtime each day.

Any thoughts about the increase in night wakings and her schedule? FYI - LO is 7 mo and is eating 2 solid meals a day. As always, thanks for all of your help and suggestions.:flower:


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## polaris

I think we are over the worst. Clara managed to have two good naps today - I let her sleep as long as she wanted and both were 2.5 hours long. I even managed to have a little snooze on the couch myself while DS watched Dumbo. Clara was in so much better form this evening. She wouldn't go to sleep at bedtime though despite seeming tired, so I ended up getting her up for a bit and she went to sleep reasonably easily at 9.30 (fed her to sleep). She seems much less itchy today although she is still absolutely covered in spots and still scratching quite a bit. 

I also just noticed that Clara is 38 weeks so I guess we were also going through WW37 in the middle of everything! I only noticed because both myself and OH commented this evening on how grown up she is all of a sudden and that she is doing loads of new things - so I suddenly wondered were we in a wonder week and checked her age in weeks. One of the new things is standing up in the cot which has been less than helpful to be honest!


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## diggory77

So today's progress. 

Woke at 7.30am

Nap-9.10-9.45
Nap-11.15-11.45
Nap-12.30-1.45
Nap-2.30-5

Bed-6.30 (took 2 hours to fall asleep so 8.30)

She's been a grumpy bugger all day and obviously trying to get her to sleep on the night was hard. But she took her naps well, as long as I'm holding her!

I'm hoping she sleeps ok tonight
Xxx


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## seaweed eater

Melly, glad it's going well! Whatever works :thumbup:

Stephie, I can shh/pat when LO is on his side. But only if he's very close to being asleep, otherwise he hates it. Ideal scenario is I put him down (and he's not crying), wait for him to turn to one side, roll him to that side, pat pat, shh, leave.

Polaris, glad things are getting better :hugs: I say keep doing what you need to do to get through it!

Diggory, great that you could get her down for naps after 1.5 hours each time :thumbup: Is it typical for her to take such a long nap in the afternoon though? That detail sticks out to me.

Also, if she's waking at 7:30, she may not need to go to sleep by 6:30. Things may shift earlier as she gets older, but 7:30 or 8 is probably a fine bedtime IMO.


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## aliss

Are my 6 monthers still here or did you all just decide to jump off a bridge? I wouldn't blame you.

We've had some very minor progress, no staying awake for 1-2 hours for 2 nights in a row and I feell like a real person again, but still lots of disturbing wakeups. That's okay, baby steps fine with me.


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## diggory77

Ahhh Steph, I hope you get a good night sleep. 3 hours to settle is a killer!

Thanks SE, no her afternoon nap is usually 30 mins, but I'm not sure if her earlier naps were cut short because I was out and about? She was crying when she woke up after her earlier naps and was grumpy and irritable until her next nap, when normally she's smiley and happy when she wakes. After that long afternoon nap she was happy though before getting grumy after about 45 minutes. When I took her in our room at 6.30 for bed, she had her feed and immediately started to fall asleep. The thing that took the longest was trying to put her down in her cot after she'd fallen asleep- she kept waking up. She would lie there quite peacefully in her cot so I left her for 30 minutes to see if she'd settle down. I could here her chatting away and kicking her legs about in her cot and rolling over. As soon as she was in my arms though she fell asleep! Little monkey! She's very clingy right now and won't self settle. I'm not sure I should work on this at the moment though as I'm changing her naps and I think she may still be going through the sleep regression. Might be too much?

Guaranteed if I put her down in her cot for her naps once she's asleep she wakes within five minutes- she definitely knows when I'm gone!

Last night she woke for a feed at 10.30pm and 4.30am, so much better than previously! She's currently asleep and has yet to wake up xx


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## Aimee4311

Night 5 of not nursing to sleep was a success, so far! She's been resisting falling asleep for about 10 minutes, but that's fine by me. 

I've noticed a decrease in the number of times she wakes up just because she wants to be latched on. For a while she pretty much wanted to be latched constantly. But it's been decreasing and last night I think she only nursed 3 maybe 4 times. 2 of those times she was latched just comfort sucking for a long time, but that's because I fell straight back to sleep! 

My next step is decreasing the amount of time she's latched for each of these sessions in hopes of phasing most of the wake ups out! :) 

Hope everyone had a good night!


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## seaweed eater

Argh! MAJOR bedtime issues. I should count my blessings that sleep is not that bad, but I feel like our wonderful bedtime routine has totally disappeared. It has no meaning anymore. I know it's largely developmental (cognitive, gross motor) + teething...I guess I just wait it out?


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## Aimee4311

:hugs: Sorry it's a tough night, Seaweed!


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## stephie_corin

seaweed eater said:


> Argh! MAJOR bedtime issues. I should count my blessings that sleep is not that bad, but I feel like our wonderful bedtime routine has totally disappeared. It has no meaning anymore. I know it's largely developmental (cognitive, gross motor) + teething...I guess I just wait it out?

SE I know exactly what you mean. Bedtime used to be the easier part of my day. But every day Cully is coming up with new tricks and I'm sure munchkin is too. I'm sure this development is impacting sleep. I would wait it out in this instance, at least for a week or two. I imagine teething pain is quite bad (last night when C wouldn't sleep I kept telling myself 'teeth are ERUPTING from his mouth' and tried to be patient). Hugs to you I hope he goes down soon x


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## stephie_corin

Melly, so glad sleep is going well for you!

Radcat, I'm sorry the night wakings are increasing. C has been going through something similar and it's a combination of teething and hitting some big milestones for us. I've also decided to switch to two naps. My reasons for this are that he is getting tired signs about 1.5 hours after his cat naps and I think his total awake time is too much. He will often exceed 10 hours awake time with three naps and I think it should be closer to 9.5 to avoid over tiredness. So I am going to work on extending his naps and go for the following awake times 2.5 hours (nap) 3-3.2.5 hours (nap) 3.5 hours (bed). As long as he is getting at least an hours nap he will be ok with the extended wake times. I'm going to aim for 1.5 hours for his second nap. I'm not sure if you think your LO is ready for two naps but it might be time?

Polaris, I'm so glad she is starting to feel better! And these wonder weeks are crazy! C is learning to crawl and sit up from lying down and he does mini crunches all night when I'm trying to get him back to sleep!

Diggory, I think the last nap is too long. I would normally say never wake a sleeping baby but I would get her up by 4pm at the latest to preserve bed time. After such a long sleep she will struggle to go down well at night.

Aliss, I'm still here! And yes, about to jump off a bridge :)

Aimee I'm so impressed with your progress. Are you using any particular method to decrease her latch time? I need to implement whatever you are doing!

We had a bad night but he was in my bed all night so I feel a bit more rested. I think he is still teething and working on crawling and generally being more mobile. I'm going to give it a week and then start getting tough on myself to break some of these sleep associations. I want to see how he settles into two naps before I shake things up too much.


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## Aimee4311

I've got no method in mind to decrease her latch time, but I strongly suspect that her wake ups are more from habit than hunger. So I'm just going to try to keep the time she's latched short and as soon as the suction changes from active eating to passive/comfort sucking, I'll detach her. :)

Sorry it was a bad night, but I'm glad you're feeling a but more rested!


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## stephie_corin

Noelle/Polaris/SE/any of the other experts, I forgot to ask in my essay of a post whether the new routine sounds ok?

I'm aiming for 2.5 hours (nap) 3-3.25 (nap) 3.5 bed. We did 2.5 hours this morning and he has already been asleep for an hour which is massive progress (without me rocking him!) as he normally takes 30 minutes now. Xxx


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## Boo44

Hi girls I need some help with Jack!

I think he's overtired

He is crawling everywhere all day long so must be so much more tired than he was a couple of weeks ago! The last couple of days he's only had 45 min nap in am and 1 hour in pm. Then because of different things he's had a couple of late nights (well, like 20 mins late nothing major)

But we've started with a couple of fighting bed times. And now we are getting early wakings too. I just leave him until 7 on a morning, but this morning he's been awake since 6.15 :(

How can I break the cycle - longer naps? Any help appreciated thanks xxx


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## Noelle610

Stephanie, that looks perfect! You're really becoming an expert yourself. Just goes to show that you're not doing anything wrong, you've just got a crap sleeper :haha:

Boo, can you outline yesterday for me? Like when he woke and when naps were and then bedtime?


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## NotNic

We had a baad night. In fact we had a bad 24hrs. He woke at 5am but OH got him resettled and he slept until 7am (I should have realised that we were in for a bad day. My son does not do lie ins!!) We then drove to my sisters early, got stuck in traffic and rather than have a cat nap like he normally does on the motorway he made an agitated moan and tried to close his eyes. After an hr in the car, out of nowhere he projectile vomits all over himself and the car seat. We then get into my sisters house and within a minute of being there he projectile vomits again all over her kitchen floor, and is sick 3 more times. Doesn't nap until 11.30 and has 30 mins. Refuses to sleep the rest of the day, or go to sleep until 8pm and was up 4 times before 2.30am. We ended bringing him in with us as I was just too exhausted to console him properly. Today he's off his food and we have very angry gums. At least I'm getting lots of cuddles.

Hope everyone's night was better. xx


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## Noelle610

So sorry Notnic! We never get a lie in either :(


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## polaris

stephie_corin said:


> Noelle/Polaris/SE/any of the other experts, I forgot to ask in my essay of a post whether the new routine sounds ok?
> 
> I'm aiming for 2.5 hours (nap) 3-3.25 (nap) 3.5 bed. We did 2.5 hours this morning and he has already been asleep for an hour which is massive progress (without me rocking him!) as he normally takes 30 minutes now. Xxx

Hi Stephie,
this is exactly the daytime routine that I aim for with Clara, I find it works really well most of the time.


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## polaris

Notnic, so sorry that your LO is not well. The only time Thomas would have slept till 7 at that age was if he wasn't well. Hope you haven't had any more vomiting and that he feels better soon.


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## aliss

Its gotten so bad Im implementing sleep training tonight. I wont be using CC/CIO but he is clearly dependent on the pacifier/boob in between sleep cycles (hasnt gone 1 hour without waking in several weeks) so for his own sake, I'm going ot have to help him learn on his own. Wish me luck!!! I told OH to sleep in our toddlers room or downstairs for a few nights, I cant do this with him in teh room, he cries and whines more than the damn baby. 

I cant leave my toddler to sit and watch movies all day while I fight with the baby


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## Aimee4311

Good luck Aliss, we were having the same problem. Putting Josalyn to bed without nursing to sleep has already helped. 

Last night she gave me a three hour stretch at the beginning of the night, which is the longest stretch in months.


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## Noelle610

Good luck aliss! What technique are you trying?

Aimee, glad to hear you got such a nice long stretch!


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## aliss

I'm glad to hear that Aimee, you must feel so refreshed!!!

Noelle- Ummm not sure lol. Since Alex was only on bottles & hated pacifiers, I'm in new territory. I think (what I just did too) is the sleep sack, on his belly in his crib, with the pacifier and a back/bum rub. It probably worked out of sheer exhaustion.

Philippe, all things considered, is actually a fairly adaptable baby. I think part of me has used too many "colicky baby" techniques on him and hence he has gotten into a habit of too many props. It was just natural for me to use them, although I probably did not need to. I don't think it will take long for him to learn or resist, he is certainly not a high needs baby at all and 2-3 days, is probably going to be enough. If I stick to it!


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## Boo44

Ok well yesterday was like this:

6.40am wake (yes I know this is not early to many, but for Jack it is creeping earlier and earlier)
10.10-10.55 nap - had to wake him from this as we had to go out :-(
14.25-15.25 nap
Bed at 7.40pm (aiming for half 7 but we were out)
Woke this morning at 6.15.....

I just feel he's overtired and whingey. And today is my first day back at work. I've asked OH to give him a longer am nap and I've heard he had 9.30-10.40. My mum will give him his hour this afternoon around 2.30pm. And I'll aim for 7.20 bed so that If he cries etc he should still be asleep by 7.30

What do you think?


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## Noelle610

aliss said:


> I'm glad to hear that Aimee, you must feel so refreshed!!!
> 
> Noelle- Ummm not sure lol. Since Alex was only on bottles & hated pacifiers, I'm in new territory. I think (what I just did too) is the sleep sack, on his belly in his crib, with the pacifier and a back/bum rub. It probably worked out of sheer exhaustion.
> 
> Philippe, all things considered, is actually a fairly adaptable baby. I think part of me has used too many "colicky baby" techniques on him and hence he has gotten into a habit of too many props. It was just natural for me to use them, although I probably did not need to. I don't think it will take long for him to learn or resist, he is certainly not a high needs baby at all and 2-3 days, is probably going to be enough. If I stick to it!

I think that's a great approach! 

Honestly, I just think we do the best we can with the experience we have. Don't be too hard on yourself. Alex taught you how to be a mom, it's not your fault your second wasn't just like him! 

Consistency is key. All methods work, it's just the parents ability to be consistent that varies. You can do it!


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## Noelle610

Boo44 said:


> Ok well yesterday was like this:
> 
> 6.40am wake (yes I know this is not early to many, but for Jack it is creeping earlier and earlier)
> 10.10-10.55 nap - had to wake him from this as we had to go out :-(
> 14.25-15.25 nap
> Bed at 7.40pm (aiming for half 7 but we were out)
> Woke this morning at 6.15.....
> 
> I just feel he's overtired and whingey. And today is my first day back at work. I've asked OH to give him a longer am nap and I've heard he had 9.30-10.40. My mum will give him his hour this afternoon around 2.30pm. And I'll aim for 7.20 bed so that If he cries etc he should still be asleep by 7.30
> 
> What do you think?

Sounds good! He might need more daytime sleep.... I'd try an hour/1:10 for the first nap. You could even do 90 minutes for the afternoon nap, keeping bedtime at 7:30pm. Hope it works!


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## polaris

Good luck Aliss, I hope it all goes well. Clara is an easy-going and adaptable baby too in general but her sleep is still pretty awful. I think it's hard not to use sleep props with your second anyway because you often just need them to go to sleep quickly because you have to see to the toddler. So you just do whatever works best at the time.


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## bananaz

aliss said:


> Its gotten so bad Im implementing sleep training tonight. I wont be using CC/CIO but he is clearly dependent on the pacifier/boob in between sleep cycles (hasnt gone 1 hour without waking in several weeks) so for his own sake, I'm going ot have to help him learn on his own. Wish me luck!!! I told OH to sleep in our toddlers room or downstairs for a few nights, I cant do this with him in teh room, he cries and whines more than the damn baby.
> 
> I cant leave my toddler to sit and watch movies all day while I fight with the baby

Good luck!! Let us know how it goes, we'll be rooting for you :)


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## gaiagirl

aliss said:


> Are my 6 monthers still here or did you all just decide to jump off a bridge? I wouldn't blame you.
> 
> We've had some very minor progress, no staying awake for 1-2 hours for 2 nights in a row and I feell like a real person again, but still lots of disturbing wakeups. That's okay, baby steps fine with me.

Hey Aliss. I still try to read through every now and again, but I don't really have anything interesting to post so I just lurk in the background lol. I did see you've had some crazy nights, hope your plan works!

Actually we had a chatting session from 4:30-5:30 this morning which was sooo irritating. But his top teeth are making their move so I think his sleep has been especially disturbed from that! I hope it doesn't become a habit...

He still wakes every 2-3, sometimes hourly if there's something going on. But I don't really think there's anything more I can do sooooo just rolling with it ;)


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## easyrhumba

Hello! Its me again with new developments in my babies horrible sleep! :cry:
He is fighting his naps sooooo bad. 

Saturday we were in the car alot and he had 3 really good naps during the day. Went to bed around 8 and woke up at 11:30 and then slept the rest of the night. 

On Sunday he woke up at 6:30.
Napped from 9:30 - 11
Napped from 1-3
Fell asleep very early at 6:30 (which is very unusual) and slept until 12:30 and woke up starving. He guzzled down a bottle and was happy and awake as could be. To my suprise though he fell asleep as soon as I set him back in his crib. He woke up around 3 and then 6 for the day.

When I picked him up from daycare yesterday they said he has taken two naps for a total of 45 min :nope: They tried absolutley everything and he just cried and cried. Rubbing his little eyes and yawning. 

We got home around 6:30 and he was out. I put him in his crib and slept until 8 and had a bottle. Fell back alsleep and woke up at 11 (husband got him to go back to sleep) . He woke up at 1:30 screaming, I picked him up and he started frantically sucking on my chin LOL so I made him a bottle and he guzzled it down and fell right back asleep and woke up 5 for the day.

Around 7 I tried to get him to go down for a nap because he was very tired. We leave for daycare around 8:15 so I figured if I got him asleep he could get a good snooze in... no that didnt happen. Screamed and rubbed his eyes until we got in the car. If I set him down he would scream, but when I picked him up he would smile and be happy as can be. 

When we got to daycare he was almost asleep but when he say the daycare ladies he caught a second wind and was all smiley and hyper again! :shrug:

I had such a good night routine for months and months and now everything is out the window. Everyday it gets worse and now he wont nap and that is the one thing I could count on.

He has been waking up 3-5 times a night since birth so really Im not concerned so much about my sleep. Im more concernced about him and when he is at daycare. 

Any advice would be very much appreciated!


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## Noelle610

Hi easy, what are the napping conditions like in daycare? Is it dark, quiet, etc? How do they soothe him to sleep? How often do they put him down?


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## stephie_corin

I haven't read all the other posts, sorry, just wanted to update before he wakes up again. What a disaster. The day was amazing. It went perfectly to plan. 6pm he was asleep in my arms, crept over to cot where he slept for fifteen minutes only to wake... And it took me three hours to get him back to sleep. I'm so tired and frustrated. I guess I cut his awake time from 10.5-11 down to 9 so I can't expect him to settle immediately into the new routine. I'm just so tired. 530am - 9pm full on baby care solo, quick dinner and to bed only be woken all night :( sorry just feeling really sorry for myself. We have such great days. We play all day, take outings, be physical, do stimulating activites, then the night just goes crazy!! I wake optimistic every morning and go to bed depressed at the moment.

Argh! Ok, rant over! Hope everyone has a great night.


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## Noelle610

:hugs: Stephanie.


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## Radkat

Good luck, Aliss! 

Boo, going back to work is hard enough. I'm sorry you have to do it during all of this sleep craziness. 

Stephie, thanks for the ideas for transitioning to 2 naps and the schedule.

My question is... How do you know when your baby is ready to drop a nap? I'm a little hesitant to mess with her schedule right now because we're going on vacation in a week and a half. I'm sure things will be all over the place there, but we will try to stick to our schedule as much as possible. Is it worth trying to change her schedule now and work on it for 10 days before we leave? Or wait until we come back? I guess that's only if she's actually ready to drop a nap. Hmmm... Any of you have thoughts on this? 

Last night was pretty much the same as the night before. Up a lot, difficulty settling. OH did say she didn't do a good nap until the afternoon though. 1st and 2nd naps were minimal, then 1:15 nap in the afternoon.


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## easyrhumba

Noelle610 said:


> Hi easy, what are the napping conditions like in daycare? Is it dark, quiet, etc? How do they soothe him to sleep? How often do they put him down?

Well for the longest time they could only get him to sleep in a swing and swaddled. I had to put an end to that though because I felt it was hurting the whole crib cause at home. They started putting him in a crib with him swaddled and now he is too big a strong and can bust out of them. He does not take a paci either. They say that the infants are on there own schedules and eat when they are hungry and sleep when they are tired. Im sure thats the problem right there.Although he has a bottle every 2-3 hours and has a little solids in the morning and afternoon. The sleep part though they say they just watch his signs. He used to be pretty consistant 11ish, 2-3ish and sometimes a late afternoon cat nap before I picked him up. 

The room is usually quiet (minus some occasional baby crying) with lullaby music playing and they have parts of the day where they encourage naps by turning the lights on low.

I trust them and I the only thing I can do to keep my sanity is hope they are telling me the truth about what they do. Although they could very well be the problem by giving up to soon on helping him soothe


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## Noelle610

Radkat, signs are usually early morning wakings, nap refusals and the remaining naps being on the longer side :flower:


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## Noelle610

easyrhumba said:


> Noelle610 said:
> 
> 
> Hi easy, what are the napping conditions like in daycare? Is it dark, quiet, etc? How do they soothe him to sleep? How often do they put him down?
> 
> Well for the longest time they could only get him to sleep in a swing and swaddled. I had to put an end to that though because I felt it was hurting the whole crib cause at home. They started putting him in a crib with him swaddled and now he is too big a strong and can bust out of them. He does not take a paci either. They say that the infants are on there own schedules and eat when they are hungry and sleep when they are tired. Im sure thats the problem right there.Although he has a bottle every 2-3 hours and has a little solids in the morning and afternoon. The sleep part though they say they just watch his signs. He used to be pretty consistant 11ish, 2-3ish and sometimes a late afternoon cat nap before I picked him up.
> 
> The room is usually quiet (minus some occasional baby crying) with lullaby music playing and they have parts of the day where they encourage naps by turning the lights on low.
> 
> I trust them and I the only thing I can do to keep my sanity is hope they are telling me the truth about what they do. Although they could very well be the problem by giving up to soon on helping him sootheClick to expand...

It sounds like they're doing their best. Daycare naps are hard for the best of sleepers.

Would they be open to putting him down sooner? Sometimes once they show tired signs it's too late.


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## aliss

Thanks girls for your support.

Our last nap (3 today, not 2, due to such a bad night) has gone amazingly well. I put him down at 130 after a nursing with paci (right now, I just don't want him to fight & scream) and he woke up crying, but resettled (paci was still in his mouth though). So, he's made into a 2nd sleep cycle and that's the most I was hoping for today.

I'm not sure how much work I'm going to do tonight, I got a call and his 6 month vaccine is in the morning so that may interrupt hings.


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## Noelle610

It's fine to start with bedtime aliss. Maybe you can move on to night wakings later! 

Good luck with the shots. We have our one year shots on Friday. I am not looking foward to it :(


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## diggory77

So 6.15 wake up time today and 4 naps in total every 2 hours or so lasting 30ish minutes. Tried to put her to bed at 6.30 so it wasn't too long after her last nap (2hours) and she fell asleep feeding immediately. Tried to put her in her cot and she immediately wakes up wailing. I think I am going to have to do something about her settling herself. Her naps are so good in the day as long as she is my arms or moving along in her pram. There seems to be less and less that I'm able to do without picking her up now. She holds on to my hands and puts them over her face so I'm touching her. But she still can't drop off.

A lovely lady suggested a 7.30 bedtime would probably be ok, but I think she'd be shattered as she was already tired by 6.30. Any suggestions? I just wish she'd sleep like she used to before this sleep regression came and pooped all over usx


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## Noelle610

Diggory, I'd stick with the earlier bedtime if she's falling asleep easily.

I would try putting her down awake and rubbing/patting her as she falls asleep.


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## polaris

Stephie, I so totally know that feeling. It's like how can the nights be so bad when everything seems great during the day? :hugs: It's so exhausting though when you are on your own all day with them and then waking up all night.


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## NotNic

Hope today went well Boo.


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## aliss

I will update tomorrow but today is day 1. I have also put bumpers on the crib to prevent him from seeing me from the crib. No swaddle. I'm terrified


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## Noelle610

You Can Do It!!!


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## aliss

Thanks! :) I won't say a darn thing yet as I know the BnB curse.


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## seaweed eater

Good luck Aliss :hugs: what's the BnB curse??

Will respond to everyone else later. :hugs: all around!


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## gaiagirl

SE I don't know but I imagine its the curse of posting about your success, lol. I don't even dare text my girlfriends about a good night OR say out loud to DH "Wow, maybe he will sleep through this transition into the next cycle" anymore. Hahaaaaa.


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## seaweed eater

Oh, that's not a BnB curse, that's an all the time curse. I used to never want to turn the monitor back on in the middle of the night because the moment I did, LO would wake up. I had to make a rule for myself that I had to turn it on the instant I got back in bed :haha:

Well if we're in curse territory, then that seems good, and I'm glad to hear it!


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## seaweed eater

All right, LO is in bed, time to catch up...

Stephie, your daytime routine sounds perfect. I think it's a fine idea to give the new nap schedule a week before you work on self-settling, for your own sanity as well as his. I'm hoping Munchkin's darn tooth will be out by then and then maybe we can work on it together. :hugs: I'm really sorry you've been struggling so much at bedtime. We're having some of the same over here and it's really no fun. My heart goes out to you. I hope it gets better soon.

Polaris, how was today? Is Clara doing any better? :hugs:

Boo, I'm sorry I don't have anything to suggest :( we've always had short naps and now we're struggling with bedtime here too. Maybe it was just a couple random bad days? I hope today was better. :hugs:

Notnic, I'm sorry you had a bad day and night :hugs: hope F feels better really soon and that today/tonight are better. Good to enjoy the cuddles at the very least.

Aimee, I'm so happy to read about your progress :happydance: long may it continue!



Noelle610 said:


> All methods work, it's just the parents ability to be consistent that varies.

Noelle, I used to believe this too, but I consider our method to have failed for my LO. And I know for sure that we were really consistent about it. Would you say we just didn't give it long enough? Or, I guess, what exactly do you mean by "work"? Because it did improve his sleep, but it seemed like he never adjusted to it in terms of his stress level. I just don't understand why he didn't, to be honest. It still kind of haunts me as I think about what to try next. Anyway, sorry to derail this discussion from Aliss' situation, where it started, but it's just something I've been thinking about myself. Would love to hear your thoughts or anyone else's on this thread. :flower:

Gaiagirl, you sound at peace with things. Is that accurate? :hugs: I hope so!

Easy, I agree with Noelle, daycare naps are just tough. My LO usually adds on a good hour or two to his normal wake time as a result of being there. He's there for a little over 4 hours and sometimes if his morning nap ends even an hour before he goes there, he will refuse to nap at all.

Maybe a more by-the-clock daytime routine would help your LO. It sounds like you are trying to plan every day according to his needs, which is great of course but can be confusing to some babies. You know your own baby best, of course. My daycare does naps on demand for infants too, but I think they would take a more scheduled approach if I wanted them to. If his usual bedtime is around 8 and you get to daycare around 9, then maybe he'll start his naps at 10-10:30 and 2:30-3, something like that. What do you think, is there a chance that would help?

Radkat, I think Noelle covered the signs of being ready to drop a nap...regarding whether to try changing things now, honestly I think I would do it if there's a chance you'll be able to stick to it when you're away, IF you think she is ready. If it works well for her then you will have a good structure to work from while you are on vacation, vs. a not so great structure right now. But if what you're doing now seems fine and you just want to drop to 2 naps because you wonder what would happen and she's around the right age, then maybe not. I don't know, what do others think? Does that help at all?

Diggory, I agree with the advice you've been given. 6:30 bedtime, and try patting her in her bed if that works. You have some time though IMO if you can't get her to self-settle right this minute. Obviously it's a good thing to work toward, but you won't be up against the object permanence issue for another month or two at least, so it's not as urgent. Definitely keep up the new nap routine, hopefully that will help a little once it becomes more consistent.

Whew! I hope I got everyone? :thumbup:

I don't want to run afoul of the curse, but bedtime tonight was somewhat better. The entire routine including the addition of 6 bedtime stories was around 45 minutes. And it took a few tries to get him down, but once we started we moved strictly toward going to bed and didn't end up having to interrupt things to play some more. Will obviously do the exact same things tomorrow. Hoping it's not a fluke.


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## stephie_corin

Notnic sorry to hear your boy is sick. And teething! I hope you get some sleep soon.

Aliss and Aimee please keep us updated on your progress! We have hourly night wakings and nursing too and I'm desperate to stop but rocking him takes a lot longer that nursing and I think has just created another sleep association. Now I have to rock and nurse sometimes to get him to sleep!

Radcat, my main reason for transitioning to two naps is because three were giving C too much awake time. He would regularly be awake 10.5-11 hours and that combined with bad night sleep made him so overtired. He has big circles under his eyes! I'm hoping two naps will reduce his total awake time. 

SE, great news!! I love you are reading six stories now, that is hilarious. We do three and by the third one (Goldilocks) I'm frantically turning pages: there's a bear, and a girl, oooo porridge... As C is rapidly losing interest! What method are you using? Sorry, I joined this thread after you'd started sleep training.

Polaris, how is Clara now? I how she's feeling better. I was thinking of you last night.

I so knew there was a BnB curse!!! Literally whatever I write here in terms of progress the opposite happens the next day. So I am putting it out there. Tonight C will sleep terribly and keep me up all night.

We are persevering with our two naps but I'm adding a bit of extra time to his awake times in the hope of avoiding last nights refusal to sleep until 9pm!

Have a good day everyone.


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## gaiagirl

Thanks SE, I guess I am!?! As much as you can be with a high needs sleep baby! I just don't think there's anything I can do...I'm not willing to have him cry, and when I do try to leave him to self settle he just lies there leg slamming or flailing and chatting for seriously up to 30-45min before finally getting upset. Shhhh/patting does NOT work for him...

I've tried playing around with his nap schedule and bedtime, tried being consistent. Seriously everything but CIO/CC. 

Sooooo yah, now I just try and roll with it and thank my lucky stars that I don't have to work until November...

We have awful nights sometimes and good ones. This evening was particularly awful as he refused to be transferred to the crib and fought sleep for HOURS. I think the top teeth are bugging him, but honestly, who knows!?!?


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## polaris

Thank you everyone for asking after Clara. She is so much better, thank goodness. Yesterday was still not great and she was still quite itchy and finding it hard to get settled, but she slept normally yesterday night, only two wakings which is really good for her and she just seems so much better in herself. No new spots today and I think most of them have crusted over now. Yay! So glad we are finally getting through this nightmare!

Aliss - hope last night went well. :hugs: LOL at the B&B curse!

Stephie - do you know after everything that I have read about baby sleep over the years I actually never realised that the reason for dropping a nap was to decrease total awake times as the length that baby can stay awake for increases. It is so obvious when you say it like that but I just never thought about it that way! So thank you! You have given me a new way of thinking about nap transitions. That was certainly the main reason why I worked to drop DS's final nap, he wasn't settling to sleep until maybe 10.30 at night and was only getting about 9.5 hours of nighttime sleep and 1 to 1.5 hours daytime sleep so total sleep of 10.5 to 11 hours (which is not enough total sleep for him), whereas without the nap he is sleeping 12 to 13 hours. I never thought about it in terms of maximum awake times, it makes so much sense.

Seaweed - I also used to believe that all sleep training methods worked if you could be consistent. However I know that I was totally consistent with CC for 10 days with Clara and I don't really feel that it worked for her although I agree that it does depend on what you mean by "worked". It definitely did improve her sleep but she never consistently settled without crying and her sleep was still not great after it. Maybe I should have stuck with it for longer but honestly I felt it was long enough.

Sorry to those I have missed, wishing everybody good naps today and good nights tonight!


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## aliss

:rofl: BnB curse = if you post that your baby is sleeping better, your baby will be guaranteed to get worse that night.

Last night went _very well_. I didn't say it (the curse!!!) but he actually went 6:15pm-9pm STRAIGHT without a disturbance in his own crib without a swaddle. We had wakeups at 9 (straight nursing), 11 (disturbed and a good 25+ minutes to settle PUPD, this is usually his difficult time the past few weeks anyways), (my memory gets hazy here, I didn't write down) about 2,3 (again a bit rough about 15 minutes of PUPD) and then almost 5, then slept till 5:55am (so, nearly 12 hours).

Now, if only my toddler could make it until amost 6 and I'd be set :rofl:

This is a much needed improvement. so about 5 nursings total, which I am FINE with, right now, I'm just trying to get him to his own bed.

So last night was his FIRST NIGHT!!! in his own bed all night since he was born (srs lol, not even the 1st day he was born). And I have to say, he did very well.

I used high bumpers to prevent him from seeing us (he has to be in our room, due to space issues).

And he's in a great mood!! it's a shame today is vaccination day :( :rofl: FML


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## Noelle610

seaweed eater said:


> Noelle610 said:
> 
> 
> All methods work, it's just the parents ability to be consistent that varies.
> 
> Noelle, I used to believe this too, but I consider our method to have failed for my LO. And I know for sure that we were really consistent about it. Would you say we just didn't give it long enough? Or, I guess, what exactly do you mean by "work"? Because it did improve his sleep, but it seemed like he never adjusted to it in terms of his stress level. I just don't understand why he didn't, to be honest. It still kind of haunts me as I think about what to try next. Anyway, sorry to derail this discussion from Aliss' situation, where it started, but it's just something I've been thinking about myself. Would love to hear your thoughts or anyone else's on this thread. :flower:Click to expand...

First, :hugs: 

I was making a very general statement, which isn't a good idea!

In truth, sleep training works this way for the vast majority of babies. But! There are actually a number (I believe the "experts" think it's 10% or so) that don't respond to sleep training. So please don't feel you've done anything wrong. 

I also believe that some babies respond to certain methods, but not others regardless of a parent's consistency. Pick up/put down is a good example. It works like a charm for easier babies, but is often extremely stimulating for higher needs kids. 

While you want your LO to get sleep that's solid and restorative, you want them to enjoy going to bed too. You want to create positive sleep associations and minimize distress. Sounds like you did the right thing by stopping.

Take a break and re-evaluate. I think we can help you pick a method - when you're ready - that may work for you.


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## Noelle610

aliss, that's great news! 

Oh and the BnB curse? It's real. About a week ago I was telling Boo that Charlotte goes to bed like such a champ - self soothes, no crying, happy to be in bed. The next night she fought going to sleep for 45 minutes! Throwing her paci and blankey out of the crib, screaming for me and laughing when I came in to soothe her. They *know*.


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## kettle28

Have to tell you that I'm up to page 98 on your thread!! Been keeping me company yesterday and last night through night wakings!! 

Would love to catch up all the way to current pages, but it may take a night or two! Already picked up some fab tips though through your experiences - thank you :) x


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## Noelle610

kettle28 said:


> Have to tell you that I'm up to page 98 on your thread!! Been keeping me company yesterday and last night through night wakings!!
> 
> Would love to catch up all the way to current pages, but it may take a night or two! Already picked up some fab tips though through your experiences - thank you :) x

Hey there!

I sometimes can't believe this thread is still going! It's bittersweet for me. I'm so glad we can all share in this experience, but of course I wish all of our babies slept like dreams!

Hope you can find some support and advice here. Welcome :flower:


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## Aimee4311

Night 6 of not nursing to sleep- and I nursed to sleep! Impatience on my part... We had friends over and I wanted to get back out to them...ten minutes into our routine and she was almost asleep without nursing when Josiah came in to use our bathroom to pee :dohh: so that woke her up and got her excited because daddy came in! 

About 15 minutes later she had just fallen asleep, again no nursing, when Josiah came in to ask me a question! Grrrrrr.... He tried to be quiet, but whispers like an elephant. I wanted to kill him!

So then she was awake and resisting sleep harder than ever, and I finally caved and nursed her down.

I told Josiah he is no longer allowed in the bedroom at night until either I've come out and it's confirmed that shes asleep, or it's been a couple of hours (because I may have fallen asleep with her!)


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## stephie_corin

Oh Aimee! How funny! On weekends when DH is home for bath time he is banned from the last fifteen minutes before bed or C will never go to sleep.

Our day has been great again. Two naps works so well. I'm also breaking the feed to sleep association in a small way. Last week he literally would not nurse unless it was nap time or bed time. Twice today he nursed at non sleep times. Admittedly one I had to pin him down on a pillow in the living room and lean over him, but whatever works! We've had about 9.75 hours awake today so I'm hoping its enough to let him sleep now. He's just nursing to sleep as I type.

Interestingly, I had two conversations today about sleep with different nationalities. The first was with a Pakistani woman who was shocked C was waking as much as he did. She said she had never heard of babies sleeping like this and I said there was a whole gang of us on the Internet! I was also talking about teething to a Filipino woman and she brushed off the multiple night wakings, said it was totally normal and that they never give pain relief in the Philippines! Obviously those two women don't represent all Pakistani and Filipino babies but it was still interesting to me.

Wishing you guys all a wonderful night sleep xxx


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## Noelle610

stephie_corin said:


> Interestingly, I had two conversations today about sleep with different nationalities. The first was with a Pakistani woman who was shocked C was waking as much as he did. She said she had never heard of babies sleeping like this and I said there was a whole gang of us on the Internet! I was also talking about teething to a Filipino woman and she brushed off the multiple night wakings, said it was totally normal and that they never give pain relief in the Philippines! Obviously those two women don't represent all Pakistani and Filipino babies but it was still interesting to me.

So interesting! I think it's odd when people have no conception of babies waking often, even if they've had good sleepers themselves. There are just so many books and forums dedicated to getting kids to sleep, it must be obvious that it's an issue. Is cosleeping the norm in the Pakistani culture? That may contribute as well.


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## stephie_corin

Noelle I hadn't thought if this but you are right! Bed sharing is the norm and I'm pretty sure for extended periods too. X


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## gaiagirl

Stephie I think a big part of a cultures perception of sleep 'issues' is how much they are viewed as problems vs normal. In western cultures it kinda seems like we believe babies "should" be sttn by a certain age and so get stressed and seek help when they aren't. We talk about it SO much more than in a culture where they bedshare and don't expect sttn and so don't really discuss it because there's nothing to discuss! Lol


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## polaris

Clara is better! Yay! She's still spotty but totally back to herself, it's just fantastic. I wanted to get her back into her routine so I woke her at 7, she settled perfectly for both her naps, self-settling after feeding until drowsy. I woke her from both of her naps so that she wouldn't have too much daytime sleep, so she napped at 9.30 a.m. for one hour and 1.30 a.m. for 2 hours. Bedtime at 7 p.m. and she chatted to herself for 25 minutes and then fell asleep. No crying! It was like the perfect day for sleep after the nightmare of the last week!


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## Noelle610

GREAT news Polaris!


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## polaris

Very interesting the differences in cultural expectations as regards to babies' sleep patterns. I have a book about cultural dimensions in parenting which has been sitting on the bedside table for ages, I just can't seem to get around to it. I do find all that stuff fascinating though.

Kettle - welcome! Well done reading through to page 98 already! How is your LO sleeping?

Aimee - I am totally guilty of feeding Clara to sleep (or trying to, it doesn't always work) when it's convenient for me. I would totally have done the same in your situation. I don't think it matters in the bigger scheme of things, just go back to self-settling tomorrow. Definitely a bedroom ban for your OH though!!

Stephie - that is great news that two naps is working well. What wake times are you doing now?


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## easyrhumba

Noelle610 said:


> easyrhumba said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Noelle610 said:
> 
> 
> Hi easy, what are the napping conditions like in daycare? Is it dark, quiet, etc? How do they soothe him to sleep? How often do they put him down?
> 
> Well for the longest time they could only get him to sleep in a swing and swaddled. I had to put an end to that though because I felt it was hurting the whole crib cause at home. They started putting him in a crib with him swaddled and now he is too big a strong and can bust out of them. He does not take a paci either. They say that the infants are on there own schedules and eat when they are hungry and sleep when they are tired. Im sure thats the problem right there.Although he has a bottle every 2-3 hours and has a little solids in the morning and afternoon. The sleep part though they say they just watch his signs. He used to be pretty consistant 11ish, 2-3ish and sometimes a late afternoon cat nap before I picked him up.
> 
> The room is usually quiet (minus some occasional baby crying) with lullaby music playing and they have parts of the day where they encourage naps by turning the lights on low.
> 
> I trust them and I the only thing I can do to keep my sanity is hope they are telling me the truth about what they do. Although they could very well be the problem by giving up to soon on helping him sootheClick to expand...
> 
> It sounds like they're doing their best. Daycare naps are hard for the best of sleepers.
> 
> Would they be open to putting him down sooner? Sometimes once they show tired signs it's too late.Click to expand...

Here is my update..

He took one 1 hour nap (starting at 11 and he had been up since 5) and had been asleep for an hour when I picked him up yesterday. She said he fought it horribly for almost 45 minutes each time. He never woke up when I got him home... I even changed him and put his PJs on while he was out. Around 8 he woke up for a few minutes, had a bottle and was back out. He woke up at 11 screaming uncontrollably for 30 minutes before falling back asleep. He woke up his normal 3 times in the night and then was up at 4:30 for the day!!!:dohh:

I have no clue what is going on :shrug:
Going to bed though between 5 and 6 though is way too weird for me.

This morning I left 40 minutes early because I knew if I drove around enough he would fall asleep and at least get a little nap in. Which he did get to sleep for about 30 minutes.


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## Noelle610

easyrhumba said:


> Noelle610 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> easyrhumba said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Noelle610 said:
> 
> 
> Hi easy, what are the napping conditions like in daycare? Is it dark, quiet, etc? How do they soothe him to sleep? How often do they put him down?
> 
> Well for the longest time they could only get him to sleep in a swing and swaddled. I had to put an end to that though because I felt it was hurting the whole crib cause at home. They started putting him in a crib with him swaddled and now he is too big a strong and can bust out of them. He does not take a paci either. They say that the infants are on there own schedules and eat when they are hungry and sleep when they are tired. Im sure thats the problem right there.Although he has a bottle every 2-3 hours and has a little solids in the morning and afternoon. The sleep part though they say they just watch his signs. He used to be pretty consistant 11ish, 2-3ish and sometimes a late afternoon cat nap before I picked him up.
> 
> The room is usually quiet (minus some occasional baby crying) with lullaby music playing and they have parts of the day where they encourage naps by turning the lights on low.
> 
> I trust them and I the only thing I can do to keep my sanity is hope they are telling me the truth about what they do. Although they could very well be the problem by giving up to soon on helping him sootheClick to expand...
> 
> It sounds like they're doing their best. Daycare naps are hard for the best of sleepers.
> 
> Would they be open to putting him down sooner? Sometimes once they show tired signs it's too late.Click to expand...
> 
> Here is my update..
> 
> He took one 1 hour nap (starting at 11 and he had been up since 5) and had been asleep for an hour when I picked him up yesterday. She said he fought it horribly for almost 45 minutes each time. He never woke up when I got him home... I even changed him and put his PJs on while he was out. Around 8 he woke up for a few minutes, had a bottle and was back out. He woke up at 11 screaming uncontrollably for 30 minutes before falling back asleep. He woke up his normal 3 times in the night and then was up at 4:30 for the day!!!:dohh:
> 
> I have no clue what is going on :shrug:
> Going to bed though between 5 and 6 though is way too weird for me.
> 
> This morning I left 40 minutes early because I knew if I drove around enough he would fall asleep and at least get a little nap in. Which he did get to sleep for about 30 minutes.Click to expand...

:hugs:

He's around 6 months old, right?


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## Radkat

stephie_corin said:


> Notnic sorry to hear your boy is sick. And teething! I hope you get some sleep soon.
> 
> Aliss and Aimee please keep us updated on your progress! We have hourly night wakings and nursing too and I'm desperate to stop but rocking him takes a lot longer that nursing and I think has just created another sleep association. Now I have to rock and nurse sometimes to get him to sleep!
> 
> *Radcat, my main reason for transitioning to two naps is because three were giving C too much awake time. He would regularly be awake 10.5-11 hours and that combined with bad night sleep made him so overtired. He has big circles under his eyes! I'm hoping two naps will reduce his total awake time.*
> 
> SE, great news!! I love you are reading six stories now, that is hilarious. We do three and by the third one (Goldilocks) I'm frantically turning pages: there's a bear, and a girl, oooo porridge... As C is rapidly losing interest! What method are you using? Sorry, I joined this thread after you'd started sleep training.
> 
> Polaris, how is Clara now? I how she's feeling better. I was thinking of you last night.
> 
> I so knew there was a BnB curse!!! Literally whatever I write here in terms of progress the opposite happens the next day. So I am putting it out there. Tonight C will sleep terribly and keep me up all night.
> 
> We are persevering with our two naps but I'm adding a bit of extra time to his awake times in the hope of avoiding last nights refusal to sleep until 9pm!
> 
> Have a good day everyone.

Thanks, Stephie. I need to talk to OH about total wake time since he watches her during the day. I know the last 2 days she hasn't napped well for the first two naps and then naps 1-1.5 hours in the afternoon. She does wake early ~5-5:30, but I bring her into bed with me and she sleeps until I get up around 7ish. Sometimes I kinda have to wake her up at this time. I'll investigate total wake time and get back to you all.


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## easyrhumba

Yes, about 6 and a half months.


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## Noelle610

easyrhumba said:


> Yes, about 6 and a half months.

Would you consider sleep training? I think it may help, but of course it all depends on what you're comfortable with.


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## NotNic

Yay for a happier and healthier Clara. Fantastic news Polaris! 

Aliss - it could just be my son but we always get great sleeps after vaccinations. He's wiped out and dozy after them. Hope your lo is the same.

Gaia - apologies if this sounds like a stupid or patronising question but do you put your lo down when they're actually tired or when you think they should be going to sleep? If I put Finlay down minutes before he's probably going to want a sleep, we don't get an earlier nap or bedtime. We run the risk of him playing, getting a second wind and then being overtired. Often he will sit quietly and play and then fall asleep on his own. Sometimes though he's just too hyper and we can spend 30mins at least trying to convince him to lay back down. Now I try to have quiet time away from his bedroom - maybe a story or just a cuddle, or I let him crawl around until we see sleep cues. It's no fun battling with them to sleep and I try to make bedtime less of a conflict iykwim.

As for us last night he actually slept through and even more miraculously he went to nursery today, had three naps AND one of them lasted a whole hour!! I'm pretty certain we are going to see a tooth in the next week. Looking back with each new tooth we've had a horrendous night about 2-3 days before the tooth appears.

Has anyone read French children don't throw food? It was the closest to my parenting style and is a pretty funny read. There is a section about mealtimes I think where the American mum (who lives in Paris) asks their child's dr why she hasn't heard about the feeding routine generally recommended to French women. He quips that he doesn't mention it to British or American mothers because they get too fixated on it and stress out about the schedule!! If anyone fancies a read and they're a little more on demand in style then it is helpful. I found it reassuring that what I was actually doing instinctively was getting to know my sons rhythm.


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## kettle28

NotNic said:


> Yay for a happier and healthier Clara. Fantastic news Polaris!
> 
> Aliss - it could just be my son but we always get great sleeps after vaccinations. He's wiped out and dozy after them. Hope your lo is the same.
> 
> Gaia - apologies if this sounds like a stupid or patronising question but do you put your lo down when they're actually tired or when you think they should be going to sleep? If I put Finlay down minutes before he's probably going to want a sleep, we don't get an earlier nap or bedtime. We run the risk of him playing, getting a second wind and then being overtired. Often he will sit quietly and play and then fall asleep on his own. Sometimes though he's just too hyper and we can spend 30mins at least trying to convince him to lay back down. Now I try to have quiet time away from his bedroom - maybe a story or just a cuddle, or I let him crawl around until we see sleep cues. It's no fun battling with them to sleep and I try to make bedtime less of a conflict iykwim.
> 
> As for us last night he actually slept through and even more miraculously he went to nursery today, had three naps AND one of them lasted a whole hour!! I'm pretty certain we are going to see a tooth in the next week. Looking back with each new tooth we've had a horrendous night about 2-3 days before the tooth appears.
> 
> Has anyone read French children don't throw food? It was the closest to my parenting style and is a pretty funny read. There is a section about mealtimes I think where the American mum (who lives in Paris) asks their child's dr why she hasn't heard about the feeding routine generally recommended to French women. He quips that he doesn't mention it to British or American mothers because they get too fixated on it and stress out about the schedule!! If anyone fancies a read and they're a little more on demand in style then it is helpful. I found it reassuring that what I was actually doing instinctively was getting to know my sons rhythm.

I'm finding it hard to read lo's sleep cues at the moment, he shows yawns at about 30m after being wake sometimes, but battle to get to sleep, at the weekend he was doing 2hrs awake time and sleeping 1hr naps, and even did a 3hr stint in the evening :) 

What sort of signs do your lo's show/did show at 4months? Do you think I should keep an eye on the clock a bit more to extend his awake time?


----------



## gaiagirl

No, not patronizing! I sometimes use his cues. Sometimes the clock. I find he can be very unreliable, lol. 

I know we have top teeth coming in but I'm starting to wonder about doing just 2 naps. I'm a bit lost on this, I need help!!!!

Typical day lately:

Up anywhere from 6:30/7:30am

1st nap at 9-9:30 (lately has been 1.5hrs sometimes only 45min)

2nd nap around 1-1:30 (usually 45 min)

3rd nap around 4 (45min)

Bedtime around 7-8 depending on his cues

That's about 3 hrs nap total and he sleeps about 10 at night so I'm not sure about dropping the last nap!?!? I don't really want bedtime before 7 because it always seems so rushed in the evening!

He's just battled bedtime so much in the last month or so...


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## seaweed eater

Will read and respond to others later, but I think we are going to try a much later bedtime. 8:30. He's generally fighting for so long that that's when he goes to sleep nowadays anyway, and I wonder if this would be less stressful if we just tried going with it.


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## seaweed eater

:cry: I'm feeling so tired and lost tonight. I don't know how to balance compassion for all LO is going through right now with the feeling that things are truly out of control and will not fix themselves. I really don't know what to do. I think we may try some sleep training again starting Friday but I'm so scared of that.


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## bananaz

seaweed eater said:


> :cry: I'm feeling so tired and lost tonight. I don't know how to balance compassion for all LO is going through right now with the feeling that things are truly out of control and will not fix themselves. I really don't know what to do. I think we may try some sleep training again starting Friday but I'm so scared of that.

:hugs: Oh god, I know how you feel about being out of control, it's really the worst. What's your biggest sleep issue with him right now?


----------



## stephie_corin

Hi everyone :)

Polaris, that's great news! I'm glad poor Clara is almost back to herself. We are doing 2.75 in the morning, 3.25 in the middle of the day and 3.75 in the evening (give or take but that's roughly what I'm aiming for!) I know the morning waketime is pretty long but he seems to be waking uber early again so I've made a decision not to let him take his first nap until at least 8am, no matter when he wakes for the day. I'm hoping it might help correct the early wakings and at the very least not throw the routine for the rest of the day.

Gaiagirl/Noelle- you're right, so much of our sleep problems are perception. I read your comment last night Gaia, as well as Noelle's post on high needs babies and to borrow SEs words to Gaia, I'm feeling at peace with things. So I can't socialise like other mums as my son will only nurse at home in a quiet room and will only nap in his special chair -ha! While I plan to do everything I can to fix his night sleep I'm going to try and obsess about it less and just enjoy my little boy. I spoke to DH last night on the phone (he has been away and we've been bed sharing this week) and he was happy for us to bring C into our bed. I'm not sure if I will end up regretting it in the long run but I feel more rested and its easier to soothe C with a cuddle than having to pick him up and rock him back to sleep from his cot.

Gaia, re naps C is a few weeks older than your LO and I've just taken the plunge for 2 naps. He seems to be coping really well during the day and I am quietly optimistic it will help his night sleep. He does get a bit fussy due to the longer awake times but nothing terrible.

Radcat, that sounds so much like Cs schedule before we switched to two naps! You said you were going on vacation I think? I know it's not ideal to change up naps right before vacation but two naps makes the day easier (for me anyway!) but your LO might nap in his stroller so this could be irrelevant to you! 

Notnic, what's the approach to feeding in the book? I haven't read it. It sounds interesting, one of my girlfriends has read it so I'll see if I can borrow her copy.

ER that sounds tough!

Kettle, welcome hon :) I would definitely keep an eye on the clock. From memory you should be aiming for 1.75 wake times at that age (obviously you don't need to be militant but I found clock watching really helpful.) I still do now as LO is very distractible and would stay up all day if I let him!

SE, I think you should go for the later bedtime! What have you got to lose? You obviously can't stop Munchkin napping in the car so I would just roll with it. 

Last night was a big improvement on the last two. Following the lead of the Filipino woman I spoke to yesterday I gave no pain relief and his sleep was just the same, no worse, so I think it was they right decision for us. He settled quicker - only one hour of trying to ease him into bed out of my arms rather than the 3 it took previously!

Have a great day everyone!!


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## stephie_corin

seaweed eater said:


> :cry: I'm feeling so tired and lost tonight. I don't know how to balance compassion for all LO is going through right now with the feeling that things are truly out of control and will not fix themselves. I really don't know what to do. I think we may try some sleep training again starting Friday but I'm so scared of that.

Ah SE we cross posted. I'm so sorry you are feeling this way!!! I've felt like this many times and it seems like these sleep issues will never get better. Big hugs to you.

If you need to sleep train, then don't feel scared or guilty. You'll be doing what is right for you guys as a family.


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## stephie_corin

Bananaz, how are your early wakings? X


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## seaweed eater

Thank you :hugs:

Really the only issue is bedtime. He hasn't been waking up too excessively, and naps have been pretty good. But he fights bedtime for hours. He's not sleeping enough at night, there's no predictability to it (he's been falling asleep anytime from 7:45 to 9:30), and DH and I are spending our entire evening trying to put him to bed.

I'm sure it's to do with crawling, but I'm really panicking about the fact that our bedtime routine is essentially gone. That's been the one constant, and obviously it's the one thing absolutely everyone says you need. And we basically don't have one anymore. :shock:


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## bananaz

stephie_corin said:


> Bananaz, how are your early wakings? X

Eh, it's hit or miss. Most mornings she's up around 5:30. After the 4-4:30 mornings I can deal with that, though :haha:

I'm glad you're seeing improvement! I hate the "trying to put them down" dance. I can't imagine having to do it for 3 hours though, ughhh. Hopefully things keep getting better for you :)


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## seaweed eater

Ah so much cross posting! Thank you dear Stephie :hugs: LO is just one of those babies who really fight it. He cries so much. I hate that, and it makes my own sleep much worse. And I'm scared that it won't work again.


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## seaweed eater

Oh my goodness, HAPPY BIRTHDAY Charlotte and Elsie!!!!! :cake: :happydance: :cake:


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## stephie_corin

SE, how well established is your LO on solids? Could you give him some fruit just before the car trip in the hope something sugary would keep him awake? Can you cut down his day sleep any further? X


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## bananaz

seaweed eater said:


> Thank you :hugs:
> 
> Really the only issue is bedtime. He hasn't been waking up too excessively, and naps have been pretty good. But he fights bedtime for hours. He's not sleeping enough at night, there's no predictability to it (he's been falling asleep anytime from 7:45 to 9:30), and DH and I are spending our entire evening trying to put him to bed.
> 
> I'm sure it's to do with crawling, but I'm really panicking about the fact that our bedtime routine is essentially gone. That's been the one constant, and obviously it's the one thing absolutely everyone says you need. And we basically don't have one anymore. :shock:

Hm, that's so strange :( When is his last nap? Have you tried keeping a record of what you do during the hours leading up to bedtime to see if there's any pattern? It may not give you any amazing insights but at least you'd feel like you're being proactive about fixing the problem. That always helped me regain some sense of control, lol


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## seaweed eater

Thanks. I think it helps a little to really try to stimulate him during his last WT, since he usually naps in the car from 5:20-5:25 or so which obviously isn't ideal (but he's been doing it for months with no issue). But that's not really foolproof. We gave him lots of time to practice crawling and walking around (with assistance of course :) ) today and he still wouldn't sleep until 9:05. But today may have been weird since he had a randomly long and late afternoon nap (2:45-4:30), and for a little while before he finally went to sleep it seemed like his mouth might be hurting. That's what I mean, it's just so difficult to tell...I can always find a way to explain it, but as an overall pattern it's just out of hand.

Usually his last real nap ends around 3 or 3:30 and then he has that quick 5 minute nap in the car. That second real nap isn't super consistent, though, since it's at daycare. But it very rarely ends later than 4.


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## stephie_corin

Thanks Bananaz :) 530 is still tough! Every time he wakes before 530 I'm like 'come on!!! Would half an hour more kill you?!?' But when they are up, they are up!!

Happy birthday to your girl!


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## stephie_corin

How long has he been fighting bed time? If today is much worse that usual could you blame the long nap? I reckon you should tell daycare to wake him after an hour or hour and a half maximum. Will they do that?

It's hard when you think they are in pain. Huge big hugs xxx

ETA sorry just saw the overall pattern is really bad. I think some of the others will have some good ideas, don't lose hope xxx


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## seaweed eater

Thanks Stephie :hugs: I definitely plan to tell them not to let him nap so long, especially after 3:30. He has never taken a nap even approaching this length so it never occurred to me to warn them :haha: but yeah, it's the overall pattern that has me worried.

Another thing is that he's not behaving the same way every time. Makes it hard to know what's going on. Sometimes he just seems cheerful and uninterested in going to sleep (like instead of nursing he'll just babble at me and touch my face). Sometimes he falls asleep easily for me or DH but won't settle in his bed. Sometimes he seems angry. Sometimes he seems more overtired, where he's worn out but having trouble. :shrug: Often several of the above in the same night.

I also worry that we have contributed to it by interrupting the routine to let him have more quiet playtime if he doesn't seem ready to sleep. I don't think that's the root of the problem, because he was acting undertired in order for us to want to do that, but now it happens every night. I worry that we have taught him that he gets to play more if he fights. He's definitely the kind of baby who would much rather play than sleep even if he's tired.

Sorry it's me me me tonight ladies :wacko: one of those nights.


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## gaiagirl

SE I have literally been having that EXACT problem lately. It's sooooo aggravating. It's been up and down with a few easy nights peppered in but overall it's a major pattern for him. Last two night he hasn't gone to sleep until 9:30. 

I have wondered about: teeth (he's currently getting the top two), over tired, under tired, days getting longer/light, not needing third nap.

Know youre not alone!!!!!!!!

Stephie - does your LO take long naps?

Happy Birthday to the one year olds!!!!!


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## polaris

Seaweed :hugs: I'm sorry sorry you are in that horrible place of not knowing what to do for the best to help your LO to sleep. It sounds a bit like a vicious cycle of him not being able to settle to sleep until too late and not getting enough night-time sleep overall, which then contributes to his overall sleep disorganization. I still blame the car-nap but I've no idea what you can do about it. Would he stay asleep for longer and take a proper cat-nap at 5ish and then make it through better to a later bedtime? I know it's not ideal but if he's not falling asleep until later anyway at least he might be better rested after maybe a 30 minute cat-nap? But maybe that would be counter-productive and he wouldn't sleep until even later.

Regardless of that, I would definitely move bedtime temporarily later as you suggest so that you can hopefully reinstate the bedtime routine and have him get used to falling asleep at the end of it again. And then just be totally consistent with bedtime meaning bedtime and not bringing him out of the room.

Well, as for me, I forgot about the B&B curse! LOL. Clara slept really awful last night. Woke a couple of times in the evening which was OK but then woke up at 2 a.m. and then just wouldn't go back to sleep for 2+ hours and then woke again screaming at 6 a.m. at which point I fed her to sleep in the bed. I didn't have the heart to wake her at 7 in accordance with my plan so she's still asleep now. I've no idea what was going on with her that she wouldn't sleep - maybe teeth? maybe just that her routine has been so disrupted for the past week? I'm going to get her up now (8 a.m.) and try and get the day back on track.


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## mrssunshine78

This morning was worse than before, 352 she woke, IMO this isn't even morning, she went back to sleep about 520 for 20 minutes, but that was only because she was feeding. Does anyone else feel like they're not being a very good mammy with being so tired? I feel like some days I just don't have the energy to entertain her :cry:


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## stephie_corin

Gaia, he's a cat napper and always has been. I sit with him and when he wakes after half an hour I pick him up and rock him back to sleep and he does another half hour on me. Not ideal I know but it's working for now. I'm hoping when he gets in the swing of things he might start taking longer naps.

Polaris, what a shame! Her sleep has been so disrupted lately it could just be that. God I hate teething. It's so unfair, it seems like literally months of disrupted sleep! I hope if it is teething they pop through soon 

Sunshine, yes I feel like this all the time! That is soooo early. You poor thing, I feel for you.


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## NotNic

Kettle - I don't think I'm alone in saying 4 months is dire! At 4mths so much is going on - growth spurts, feeding becoming more regulated, adapting to longer sleep cycles, teething etc. It can throw the best sleepers out and I know because Finlay STTN for the 6 weeks leading up to this. Looking back I'd say a good bedtime routine is essential. Work out a bath, feed, bed system that suits you and stick with it so they learn they are winding down for bedtime. Try and respond to night wakings the same way and then be ridiculously over the top when it is proper wake up time. I'm all dramatic about it being morning, pulling the blind up and chatting animatedly. My theory is that when its night time mummy isn't fun and not worth waking up for! When its morning then I'm reinforcing that the day has begun.
Not every baby does give sleep cues so its tough. For some of them the hours awake thing (if you look about 20pages back Twister reposted a chart) is a better guide, so putting them down for a nap a set amount of hours after waking. For us it sort of works, but really what I did was ignore set bedtimes for a few days. I watched his behaviour and realised that his eyes go pink when he's tired. He rubs his face not just his eyes, and can get a bit starey eyed. If we're edging to overtired he starts making a quiet grizzle noise, almost under his breath. We also use a dummy / paci and if we give him one when he's about to need a sleep he sort of sighs and relaxes his shoulders.

Gaia - looking at your routine I'd say that you might want to try pushing that first nap back to start later to get closer to a 3hr gap. We never had a third nap to drop (no-one told either of us that babies needed 3 naps!!) but at nursery he has started to have a third because he's too tired, and his morning nap isn't long enough because of other distractions. If you got him to be more tired before that nap you might start seeing longer naps and the third being optional, or could be replaced with a quiet time. We started to have longer naps at that age and bedtime has always been after 7.30pm for us.


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## stephie_corin

It's 7 PM, I've showered and C is asleep!! DH is due back tonight. The 'ease you into bed' dance only took 40 mins... At the risk of invoking the BnB curse ... I call this progress! 

I hope everyone has a great night x


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## gaiagirl

Stephie that's great! Sooo nice when an evening is successful :)

My crazy little teether finally fell asleep at 9:30 last night but we did sleep in until 8 so I guess he still got his night time sleep.

I'll try 10:30 for nap today because of the sleep in, and see if we can do a two nap day. 

Maybe I should really wait until these teeth erupt to change things up on him though...hmmm.

They're soooo close! I can see the white of one and he won't let me touch them.


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## Aimee4311

Seaweed, I hope everything is better tonight! 

Last night threw me for a loop! I nursed Josalyn at 7 and she fell asleep! I figured it would be a small cat nap, but she kept sleeping! That's the earliest she's ever gone to sleep for the night. 

She did wake up many many times in the night looking for boob, which I attribute to nursing to sleep, so that won't happen again (I hope!). But she slept until 7:45 this morning, so I still felt well rested! 

I'm going to try and go with it to see if she's finally ready for an earlier bed time. Normally she goes down between 8:45-9:15. Never earlier though! We'll see!


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## NotNic

Gaia I swear Finlay teeths for 3 weeks out of every 4. Teething is relentless!! :haha: Personally I wouldn't wait to help him get good naps. You don't need to call cold turkey on the 3rd nap but just play it by ear. Some days he could have a brilliant morning nap and then a mid pm nap. Others he might be worn out in the afternoon and need an extra cat nap.


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## Noelle610

Hey girls! Sorry I'm not caught up. It's my daughter's birthday today and it's crazy at work.

Hope everyone is getting a little rest... Or is that too hopeful? :haha:


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## seaweed eater

Thank you everyone :hugs: Polaris, I think what you suggested is just what we will do. Focus on reestablishing bedtime even if it's really late, and then see if we can bring it earlier. Especially since he actually slept really well last night once he was asleep (just a bit on the short side but not even that bad - 9:05-3:30-5:15-6:30).

I'm sorry the BnB curse got you too and that you had such a rough night. :hugs: Really hope today and tonight are better. And that things get consistently better soon!

Stephie, so glad bedtime went better tonight :thumbup: 7 PM and 40 minutes sounds like a very good night to me. Hope things continue to get better. Also, re naps, I know it's not ideal to have to intervene to extend them, but I think it's a great first step. Once he's able to stay asleep on his own you won't have to make any adjustments to his routine.

Gaia, I'm sorry you are having the same bedtime issues. So aggravating :( I think moving to 2 naps may help though. I agree with NN, I wouldn't wait for him to be done teething. I think for a baby who's ready for a nap transition it doesn't actually help to wait. Even if the transition is hard, it's actually not any worse or more stressful than a routine that doesn't work anymore. And I also agree with playing it by ear at first. Just try to extend the WTs and make sure you don't end up with a too-late third nap (if it gets late then keep it short). See what effect that has. I hope things get better soon :hugs:


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## seaweed eater

PS, to Stephie's point a few pages back about different cultural practices...I was talking to an Indian mom raising her daughter here in the US, and she mentioned that people in India would make you feel like a terrible mother for leaving your baby to cry for even 5 minutes. I asked her what methods they used for getting their babies to sleep, and she said, "I'm not sure. I guess they have a routine, and they sing them lullabies?"
Oh really? :haha:


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## polaris

seaweed eater said:


> PS, to Stephie's point a few pages back about different cultural practices...I was talking to an Indian mom raising her daughter here in the US, and she mentioned that people in India would make you feel like a terrible mother for leaving your baby to cry for even 5 minutes. I asked her what methods they used for getting their babies to sleep, and she said, *"I'm not sure. I guess they have a routine, and they sing them lullabies?"
> Oh really?* :haha:

^^^
:rofl: Wow I never thought of that! Must try the routine and lullabies!

Today was good, Clara settled easily for all her naps. Bedtime - we played the "stand up in the cot and then shout loudly until mammy comes and lies me down again" game for about twenty minutes but then she went off to sleep happily. We'll see what tonight brings. She is definitely teething and her tooth may even be very slightly through, I can see the white of it but she won't let me touch it to see if it is actually through the gum or not.

Stephie, yay, so glad that bedtime went a bit more smoothly. Yay for showering too - I never realized before having kids what a luxury an uninterrupted shower could be!

Gaia, I agree with Seaweed, I wouldn't wait for the teething to finish before changing things, honestly they are teething for so long, you might never get to change anything if you waited. I said to OH today that Clara was very close to getting another tooth and he said "oh so she has three now?" - this is actually only her second tooth but I have been saying that it is nearly through for about three weeks now so he just assumed this must be a different one!

Seaweed, good luck with the later bedtime - hopefully it will help him to settle easier. It doesn't really matter if bedtime is late once he's not getting overtired. And hopefully once he's going to sleep easier you can gradually move bedtime a bit earlier again. That was a lovely long stretch of sleep from 9.05 until 3.30! Don't think Clara has ever slept that long, bless her.

Noelle - hope Charlotte (and you) have had a lovely birthday!


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## gaiagirl

Thanks, you ladies are right! He has been teething forEVER.

Soooo today:

Up at 8

9:45 he was clearly tired so took him to his room and put him to sleep (slept 10-10:45)

Then again around 12:45/1 put him down (slept until 2)

Now it's 4:30 and he's tired! So he will sleep until 5!??

Ack...what to do in this situation!?

What should I do to get him down to 2 naps, just increase wake times even though he's rubbing eyes/fussy?

What if he wakes after one cycle? Try puttin him back down!? It doesn't work as often as it used to...


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## seaweed eater

Gaia, we're still having 80%+ one cycle naps, and two per day. I think for a lot of babies the nap lengthening actually follows the longer awake times. It hasn't happened consistently yet for Munchkin, but it's getting better gradually. And now he's used to two naps and won't take more most days.

In the future I'd try to stretch the WTs, yes, especially the second one -- even if he seems tired. I know Munchkin sometimes seems tired when he's not ready for a nap yet. It seems weird after months of trying to catch their first tired signs, but it can be better to wait longer for older babies. IME. Plus, you are just trying this out. If it turns out that he can't sustain longer WTs at all, you can go back.

As for what to do today, I would give him a catnap (no more than 30 mins) now if you haven't put him down already.


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## Shadowy Lady

I feel like I shouldn't even post here but I have a question guys: Sofia's been sleeping at around 6:30 pm for the past 4 months. In the past week or so though, she stays up when we put her down whining, crying and talking until closer to 7:30 pm (we're putting her down at 6:45pm). I'm not really complaining as she sttn till around 6:30 am but wondering if I should put her to bed later? Maybe have her in bed by 7:15 pm or even closer to 8 pm?

Here's how her day goes:
- wakes up at around 6:30-7 am
- naps from 10-11:30 am
- naps again from 2:30-3:30 pm

I'd appreciate help on this :)


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## gaiagirl

SE, he did take a 30min catnap and was up at 5. I'm going to do bed at 8, I think 3 hours is reasonable.

I will try longer wake times and see how it goes. I mean at this point, it's not like there's anything amazing going on that I risk losing, hahahhaha. 

Shadowy, I have little to offer since my baby won't self settle at all so no experience but do you think it takes her 45min to soothe to sleep? If so she would still not sleep until 8:45 then? I guess only one way to find out!?


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## seaweed eater

Shadowy, I think you could try aiming for 7:15 or 7:30 sleep time with that schedule. Has she been waking up any later in the morning with the later bedtime? Or have you ever found her to wake up later if she happens to go to sleep late? 3 hours seems on the shorter end for the last WT and on the longer end for the first one, so I almost feel like you might be able to shift her night forward by half an hour and keep the naps the same. Depends on the baby of course -- not if she won't nap less than 3 hours after waking up in the morning, for example.

So obviously tonight we had an early and super short bedtime :haha: I am so not complaining. Nap ended at 3 and managed to avoid a car nap so he was just exhausted by 7:30 and asleep in less than 10 min. I'm sure it will be the opposite again tomorrow.


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## Aimee4311

Well we're back on track with not nursing to sleep. She went down at about 9:05, it's now 10:25 and she's still sleeping! :)


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## stephie_corin

Gaia, C still only does one cycle and rocking him back to sleep has been the key to making sure he can stay awake for 3 hours. I think the first week of nap transition is tough on them - C has definitely been more fussy. I'm sure there are gentle ways of transitioning but we have just gone cold turkey and I'm being a mean mamma and ignoring his tired signs. I take him outside when he gets fussy and it always perks him up. If I were you I'd go for an earlier bed time tomorrow rather than a cat nap.

Aimee, I wonder if she is growth spurting? I hope she is ready for an earlier bedtime, it will be nice for you guys to have some adult time in the evening. Oh, just saw your next post! Yay for no nursing to sleep!

Polaris, what is with these babies and their mouths! If I even look like I'm going to go near his mouth to investigate what is going on his lips clamp together and goes mmmmm mmmmm while shaking his head. I hope you have a good night hon, you deserve it.

Noelle, happy birthday to Charlotte!

SE, how did you avoid the car nap?!? Amazing!!! So happy for you! Oh, and the old routine and lullabies! Why didn't I think of that!?!?

Shadowy, I agree, push her bedtime to 730ish or cut short one of her naps - maybe make the morning nap a cat nap and bring the next nap a bit earlier.

We had night one of C in the bed with us. It went pretty well. We still had 1-2 hourly wakings but it was easier to settle him. Also, I had a massive breakthrough. One of my friends mentioned she rubs her baby's back and he goes I sleep. Aimee, I think you do this too? She suggested I should rub Cs tummy. It was such a simple suggestion but it worked! When he woke after 45 mins I lay next to him and rubbed his belly and he fell back asleep! I did this twice before going to bed but as the night wore on it got less effective.

Also, he had been hysterical these last two days before his first nap. What has calmed him down both times was doing a loud shhhhhh in his ear, which reminded me of when he was a new born and had sensory overload and white noise was the only thing that would calm him (hair dryer etc). It's funny how quickly they change. Rocking had no effect whatsoever but shhhhh worked a charm!


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## gaiagirl

Thanks Stephie, I am
not sure how much I wanna keep trying to get him BACK to sleep at every nap but I guess you do what you must.

The only thing that slightly concerns me with early bedtime is that he tends to ALWAYS wake up 10-11 hours after going to bed. So last night he went to bed at 9:30 and woke at 8, lovely. If he went to bed at 6:30 it could be 5!!!!!!!! I would really like to keep a 7:30 bedtime if possible...

So tonight: bed at 8 went SUPER smooth and he stayed asleep for over two hours without needing any intervention!!!!!!

Yay for adult evening time!


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## NotNic

Gaia - as ridiculous as it sounds you might want to try waking lo up at 7am to increase the awake periods which would give them more time to fit in a 3rd nap if required from the long periods of awake time, so doing something like:

Up 7am
Nap 1 9.45 (stretch to 10am after a week or so)
Nap 2 1.45 / 2pm 
Optional Nap 3 / Quiet time 4.30 for 30mins
Bed / Bath routine from 6.30pm
Bed 7.15-7.30

You will notice that the naps will be closer to 2.5/3hrs soon across the two naps which will make the 3rd nap easier to drop. Also I appreciate 3hrs gap is a long time to be awake so maybe tweak to be 2hrs 45min to begin. Also as mealtimes become more of a proper feature a lot more of these minutes will be used up, plus squeezing in milk feeds too makes the longer awake times necessary.

Also if you are worried about the 3rd nap being too late you could have story time and a quiet period. We often do that. We sit and have a cuddle and read. It's a useful tool when he's fighting a nap. Often he does pass out on me but its more of a power nap. IME though a late nap has never interfered with bedtime of 7.30/8pm. If I've worn him out enough he can't make it to bed without a late nap he's usually tired enough to go to sleep normally! Obviously sometimes he'd be tired around 5.30/6pm but on those days I start the routine earlier and aim for 7.15/7.30 instead.

Belated happy birthdays to Elsie and Charlotte xx


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## polaris

Seaweed - yay for the early bedtime! I would say that things will get easier as he gets a bit older and it is possible to keep him awake in the car.

Stephie, that's great that he settled with you rubbing his tummy! I always try back rubbing and also stroking her cheek or the back of her neck, sometimes it works but sometimes only nursing will do! What co-sleeping arrangement did you go for in the end?

Shadowy - I would try bedtime at 7 p.m. initially, you might find that she settles easily at that time after a longer stretch of activity. It's normal for bedtimes to shift a bit as baby gets older. You might need to move it even later but I would try 7 p.m. first.

Gaia - yay for an uninterrupted evening!

Aimee - that's great that that things are back on track with not nursing to sleep.

We had a much better night last night. Only three wake-ups which is not too bad. The only concern that I have is that nursing doesn't seem to be settling her back to sleep as well as it used to. She seems to get quite alert and then rather than going straight back to sleep she is fussing/crying when I put her back into the cot after nursing. She did go back to sleep quite quickly each time last night but I'm thinking maybe it's time to work on feeding cut-offs again and try and cut back on night feeds a bit.

I totally missed that Elsie turned one too - belated happy birthday!


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## stephie_corin

Gaia I think if three naps are working, including the cat nap and a late bed time, then go with it. Notnic has given you some excellent advice. Two naps works for us when considering Cs total wake time and unlike your LO, he is up at 5-530 regardless of when he went to bed!! I'm so jealous, I think I'd put C to bed at 9 every night! So I wouldn't rush two naps.

Polaris, we are actually going with your fantastic suggestion of mattress on floor and sidecar cot on lowest setting! We haven't done it yet as DHs flight was delayed last night and we were asleep when he got in, but we discussed it this morning and think its the best option. I'm not against extended bed sharing, but for us, I would prefer him to be in his own bed when he is STTN. Although at this rate he may be with us still when he is 30.

Does Clara feed at each night waking? Do you think she is hungry or just comfort nursing? 

Can I ask what age you put her in her own room? How did she cope with the switch from bed sharing?


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## stephie_corin

It's our weekend and DHs first taste of life on two naps. I think he has a new appreciation for how ridiculous my life is! Ha! He's witnessed first hand me pinning C on the living room floor to breastfeed (he is boob stubborn and distracted) and holding him for 1.5 hours for his nap. Lol. At least it gives me some uninterrupted Internet time, even though my right arm has gone dead!


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## polaris

Stephie, that's great that the mattress on the floor and side-carred cot will hopefully work for you! 

To answer your questions - Clara does feed at the majority of night wakings. For a while I was making good progress on settling her in other ways and I was trying to only feed her maximum twice a night. However that has sort of gone out the window over the last month mainly because she has been unwell constantly, with a cold, then conjunctivitis, then the dreaded chicken pox. She just really wanted to feed for comfort and I was also glad for her to be getting whatever antibodies she could from the milk to help her fight off the illness. But now that she's better (fingers crossed!) I think I will go back to working on limiting night feeds. I'm not quite ready yet because I need to catch up on a bit of sleep myself first, but maybe after the weekend.

I stopped bedsharing with Clara when she was almost seven months because it just really wasn't working any more and no-one was getting any sleep. I moved her to the cot in our room first and it was very difficult. I had been trying to put her in the cot for part of the night for a few weeks but it was getting harder instead of easier. This is when I did CC to help her to learn to self-settle in the cot. Looking back it probably wasn't the best idea to move straight to CC from bedsharing but I was really desperate at the time and her sleep just seemed to be getting worse and worse. Moving her to her own room was really easy in comparison, it didn't actually impact on her sleep at all. She actually was in her brother's room for a couple of weeks because I do eventually want them to share a room. But this wasn't really working out partly because I worried that she was disturbing him (even though he actually never woke up!) but mainly because he was disturbing her when he was going to bed (she usually did wake up when he was going to bed and it was really upsetting his bedtime routine) and I also worried that his night light was affecting her sleep. So now she's in the spare room which actually works out well because as I said there is a futon in there that I can sleep on when she is very unsettled. Eventually though I would love for them to share a room and have a spare room again. When she's sleeping a bit better....


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## Noelle610

Shadowy Lady said:


> I feel like I shouldn't even post here but I have a question guys: Sofia's been sleeping at around 6:30 pm for the past 4 months. In the past week or so though, she stays up when we put her down whining, crying and talking until closer to 7:30 pm (we're putting her down at 6:45pm). I'm not really complaining as she sttn till around 6:30 am but wondering if I should put her to bed later? Maybe have her in bed by 7:15 pm or even closer to 8 pm?
> 
> Here's how her day goes:
> - wakes up at around 6:30-7 am
> - naps from 10-11:30 am
> - naps again from 2:30-3:30 pm
> 
> I'd appreciate help on this :)

Yes to the later bedtime! Try 7/7:30. A 4 hour awake time between last nap and bedtime is totally appropriate at this age. If that doesn't work, try capping nap 1 at an hour and keeping the 2:30pm second nap.


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## Shadowy Lady

Thanks guys! She does rub her eyes as soon as she sees her sleep sack but I think it's coz she knows sleep sack = sleep, lol! Then she stays up and talks to her lil stuff toy. I'm going to start her routine at 7:00 pm tonight. She's never taken long to self settle before so I'm thinking she's not tired when we put her down.

Noelle - happy birthday to Charlotte! I cannot believe she's one already. What did you guys do for her birthday?


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## Noelle610

Thanks Lady!

Nothing much, we just had some cake and put her in a cute dress :)

I have family in town this weekend, so we'll have a small barbeque.


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## Sunnie1984

To Noelle and Bananaz - Happy Birthday to Charlotte and Elsie - I know I'm late but I hope they had great days! :flower:

To everyone else, I am reading, but we are inundated with guests left right and centre - I guess that is what happens when you live in the sunshine and all your family are back in the UK in the rain! 

So sorry I can't respond individually but I will when I get five mins. 

Shadowy Lady - you beat me to a post again! I think our LO's are in sync! 

I'm having problems with a later bedtime - Noelle and Bananaz when did your LO's start going to bed later. 

We used to do 6pm and no later - for the last two nights she's been fighting until almost 8pm. 

Today went like this: 

6:15am Wake Up
9:00am Nap 1
10:20am Awake
1:20pm Nap 2
2:00pm Awake

It's now 7:30pm and we have been fighting since 6:00pm as she started showing tired signs at 5:30pm. 

Still screaming as I type - Grandma trying to settle with zero success. 

Tips? 

Also separation anxiety reared her ugly head this week - any advice on that? 

Must dash and rescue crying baby! 

xxx


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## gaiagirl

Thanks ladies!

NotNic - The only reason he slept until 8 that time was because he fought bedtime until sooooo late! He does usually wake by 7 if he is asleep by 8ish. Like last night, bed at 8 and up at 7. 

I will try longer awake times today and see how it goes! Guess all I can do is experiment :)


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## stephie_corin

Here is our new bed arrangement! Excuse the poorly made bed. 

Polaris, I'll be watching your progress with Clara closely. She's two months older than C and we seem to have similar parenting approaches. I'm so excited about bed sharing but I have a small doubt that we will end up regretting it and finding it impossible to get him in his own bed but I'm going to run with it for now. I think you are doing the right thing giving you and Clara a few days to get back to your normal selves before you tackle the night feeds. I love the idea of your two sharing a room, so cute! Thanks for sharing your bed sharing story.

Wow fighting bedtime seems to be a common theme. C fought for an hour tonight. I'd be tempted to run with a later bedtime but his last nap finishes at 2pm and he is awake at 530 am at the latest, so I think a bedtime of 545-6 is best for him. He obviously has other ideas! I'm sure this baby forum exists ... They're all sneaking online when we are asleep. 

I showed DH the tummy rubbing soothing tonight (he watched on the video monitor) and he was amazed! Other than tonight and last night C has never been soothed back to sleep with anything other than bouncing, rocking and nursing (often all three!)

Good luck for tonight everyone xxx
 



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## Noelle610

Sunnie1984 said:


> To Noelle and Bananaz - Happy Birthday to Charlotte and Elsie - I know I'm late but I hope they had great days! :flower:
> 
> To everyone else, I am reading, but we are inundated with guests left right and centre - I guess that is what happens when you live in the sunshine and all your family are back in the UK in the rain!
> 
> So sorry I can't respond individually but I will when I get five mins.
> 
> Shadowy Lady - you beat me to a post again! I think our LO's are in sync!
> 
> I'm having problems with a later bedtime - Noelle and Bananaz when did your LO's start going to bed later.
> 
> We used to do 6pm and no later - for the last two nights she's been fighting until almost 8pm.
> 
> Today went like this:
> 
> 6:15am Wake Up
> 9:00am Nap 1
> 10:20am Awake
> 1:20pm Nap 2
> 2:00pm Awake
> 
> It's now 7:30pm and we have been fighting since 6:00pm as she started showing tired signs at 5:30pm.
> 
> Still screaming as I type - Grandma trying to settle with zero success.
> 
> Tips?
> 
> Also separation anxiety reared her ugly head this week - any advice on that?
> 
> Must dash and rescue crying baby!
> 
> xxx

Hey Sunnie! I think it was likely around that age - maybe 9 months or so. 

I'd try extending your middle wake time and making that second nap later. You may find it lasts longer with the extended wake time as well. If he's waking from the first nap at 10:20am, perhaps try for the second nap at 2pm. Bedtime should ideally be no more than 4 hours after the second nap. I think a slight schedule adjustment may really help.

Re: Separation anxiety? Is it happening at bedtime or all throughout the day? Also, what does your bedtime routine consist of? And how long is it?


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## Boo44

Noelle you are so helpful :flower:


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## Aimee4311

Stephie- that's how my room is arranged! :)


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## Shadowy Lady

Sunnie - hahaha our babies are totally talking to each other. Sofia doesn't really scream or anything but she talks to her stuffed animal, coos, whines...I'm definitely trying a later bedtime today.

Someone mentioned cultural differences when it comes to baby's sleep - I was at my mom's today and one of her friends who's this older Persian lady was there as well. She asked me how Sofia sleeps and I said she's been sleeping through for the past 2 months. She asked if that's counting night feeds and I told her that Sofia night weaned herself at 6 months. She was shocked to her core. She thinks ALL babies need night feeds until they're a year old and she was asking why I wasn't feeding Sofia, lol! I'm thinking "Lady, I told you she night weaned herself, she'd be annoyed if I went in, woke her and fed her"....*shrugs*


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## polaris

That's really interesting Shadowy. I think Clara would definitely agree with your mum's friend, mind you.


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## polaris

Hi again everyone,
I'm just looking for any thoughts about wake-up time in the mornings. Clara doesn't have any sort of consistent natural wake-up time, which I find a bit strange to be honest as most sleep books suggest that their natural wake-up time should be reasonably consistent. Clara could wake any time from 6.30 to 9 a.m. I never had this with Thomas as he always woke at pretty much the same time (usually way too early!), within about 30 minutes anyway.

So a couple of questions - firstly, does anyone have any thoughts on why her wake-up time varies so much? Secondly, should I try to control her wake-up time (I'm guessing yes, because otherwise her routine just varies so much from one day to the next). Thirdly, what time should I wake her - and does it matter? It would suit me to wake her at 7 a.m. and get her down for her first nap early so that we can go out somewhere reasonably early with DS when she gets up. But I do have some reservations because she actually very rarely wakes before 7.30 if I leave her to wake up naturally. So would I be better waking her at 7.30 if she's not already awake? It just seems a bit wrong to have to wake her up every single morning! 

I actually can't really believe that I'm posting this when most people are battling with early wakings at this age! But then Clara has always done everything pretty much backwards with regard to her sleep patterns! LOL.


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## Aimee4311

I don't have advice, Polaris. Josalyn's wake up time is normally between 8-9, and I count myself lucky for that! It's a rough day when she wakes at 7:30! But her's varies a lot too. 

I got her down at 8:15 this evening. About 45 minutes earlier than normal! She woke up early this morning, so it worked out. I didn't nurse to sleep either! :happydance:


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## bananaz

polaris said:


> So a couple of questions - firstly, does anyone have any thoughts on why her wake-up time varies so much? Secondly, should I try to control her wake-up time (I'm guessing yes, because otherwise her routine just varies so much from one day to the next). Thirdly, what time should I wake her - and does it matter? It would suit me to wake her at 7 a.m. and get her down for her first nap early so that we can go out somewhere reasonably early with DS when she gets up. But I do have some reservations because she actually very rarely wakes before 7.30 if I leave her to wake up naturally. So would I be better waking her at 7.30 if she's not already awake? It just seems a bit wrong to have to wake her up every single morning!
> 
> I actually can't really believe that I'm posting this when most people are battling with early wakings at this age! But then Clara has always done everything pretty much backwards with regard to her sleep patterns! LOL.

I can't offer an explanation for the inconsistency but I will say that Elsie also had really random wake-up times at that age - she would be up anywhere between 5am and 8am (but usually on the earlier end of that spectrum). It drove me crazy! Anyway, she settled back into a more consistent wake-up time at around 10/11 months, so maybe it's a developmental thing?

As far as whether to wake her, what time is she going to bed? And how are her naps these days?


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## seaweed eater

Polaris, if you wake her up most days then at least it will be super consistent...and maybe she'll start waking up at that time on her own. :shrug: Not saying you should do it, but I think it could have its virtues.

I was going to ask the exact same questions as Bananaz. :flower:

Sunnie, hope things start getting easier. My LO has some separation anxiety and sometimes it helps him fall asleep if I stay in the room for a moment after putting him down, but I also don't want to make him scared or upset if he wakes up and finds me gone. So far that hasn't happened, knock on wood.

I didn't know they started wanting a later bedtime around 9 months. Maybe that's related to what has been going on with my LO. That would make me feel better! Because I haven't been able to understand why he's suddenly started fighting bedtime.

Stephie, I don't know anything about bedsharing, but your arrangement looks good :thumbup: So glad the tummy rubbing is working well! My LO just hates that, it always makes him really mad :haha: goes to show you how what works great for one baby doesn't work at all for another!

Aimee, glad things are going well, hope you have a good night tonight :thumbup:

Gaia, how did the day go? :hugs:

We had a good bedtime tonight. LO was fussy by 7:30 so we decided to try putting him down, and he fell asleep fairly easily at 7:45. But then we had a 45-min waking, though he went down ok after nursing. But since then has been moaning in his sleep on and off. :shrug: Just hoping the 45 minute thing doesn't become a pattern. Still no tooth. I'm hoping we don't have to go through another horrible night before it appears.

The only reason I was able to keep him awake in the car yesterday is that it worked out for DH to drive us home, so I sat in the backseat playing peekaboo and making funny noises. It really took a lot of effort. No way I could ever do that from the front seat.


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## stephie_corin

Polaris, I would wake her at 7 definitely, especially if it fits in with your family. She'll just take naps earlier and bed time will be earlier and she will naturally start waking at that time. I think it will give her a nice consistent start to her day and help her find her own routine. I could be wrong but I'm sure I read that even for adults a consistent wake up time is good for healthy sleep habits. I think it's better to go to bed early if you are tired rather than sleep longer in the morning. This must apply to babies too?

Sunnie I hope you had a good night. Maybe all the visitors are exciting for S and its making bed time harder? I know C gets super excited when we have people over.

Aimee I'm so glad things are going well still! Keep up the good work! And how funny that we have the same bedroom set up! We did our first night like that last night and I think it worked great!

SE could you get an annoying electronic toy that makes noises and lights up? It might keep him awake in the car? The 45 min waking is so strange. C has done it for months now. And still no tooth!?! Eeek! Poor munchkin!

I was too optimistic when I said both bottom teeth popped through. I finally got the chance to take a look in his mouth and only one is through. I can see the other just below the surface. At 2am last night he woke and was inconsolable and making an 'I'm in pain cry' so I gave him iboprufen at about 330am and he ended up sleeping (with a few more wakings) until 610am! It's the longest lie in we have had in months!!!

Does anyone know what the minimum day sleep is at 7 months? I think he needs slightly less to avoid this bedtime fighting. Is 2 x 45 mins-1 hour ok? Also, he nurses to sleep and I never know when to start timing his nap. He closes his eyes as soon as he latches on but he's not asleep. He usually is by the end of his feed though.


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## gaiagirl

Seaweed its soooo funny how much your LO wants to fall asleep in the car! (I'm sure it's not funny to you) I seriously TRY to get mine to and he won't unless he's SUPER tired and the ride lasts over 30min. 

If you ever go on a road trip you'll be up alllll night, because he'll sleep the whole way!

So our day was:

Up at 7

9:20 I could NOT keep him up much longer, sooo fussy. So nap 9:30-10:30. Although he woke at 9:45 and needed put back down :( So a bit of a fragmented nap.

Then we went out shopping for awhile and next nap was at 1:30 (again he seemed a bit finicky with being transferred to crib) but slept one cycle.

I decided to do a power nap at 4 because we were going out and I was worried he wouldn't deal well without one. He only slept like 25-30min.

I think his teeth are bugging him because they LOOK so sore, so I think it may be why naps were so odd today.

Anyways, last wake time was 4:30 and he was asleep by 8. Again, he slept all evening without a peep! Amazing!

Gave us time to catch up on some Arrested Development before the new season is released Sunday (anyone else a fan!?).


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## stephie_corin

Gaia that sounds like such a good day! The nice long nap in the morning is awesome.

Omg a new season of arrested development?!? It's one of our favourite shows! I had no idea they were doing a new season! Whoop!!


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## mrssunshine78

I have no advice for anyone sorry, Jasmine has always mainly done her own thing, nothing according to the baby manual :haha: Although at 7 months she was having 3 hour ish long naps. Polaris, I too think I'd wake Clara at 7 every day to get her into a routine that suits you. 

Last night was awful, she goes to bed really well, within a minute or 2 of putting her down she's asleep. Last night she woke at 1230-130 and would only go back off in our bed, then woke at 3 briefly then back off until 350, fed her to see if it would make her go back off, it didn't, hubby put her in her cot about 415 and she went back off for 20 mins, brought her back in our bed and she slept on me until 6. I'm exhausted as is hubby. Do you think she's overtired?? If so how do we get over this??? It seems to be a very viscous circle. 

Wondering about CC too, has anyone used it with success? We're going on holiday on Thursday and not sure whether its worth trying to start something now???


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## Noelle610

Polaris, another vote for waking at 7! Most of the reading I've done mentions 6am-7am as the natural biological wake time for most babies. I suspect you're seeing inconsistency simply because nights are inconsistent. A consistent wake-up time may really help get her on an age appropriate schedule. Charlie was inconsistent before you started sleeping better. She could wake any time between 5am and 8am. Made any planning for the day impossible.

MrsSunshine, Twister had success with CC. Hopefully she can pop in with some advice!


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## Twister

As Noelle mentioned, we used CC and noticed improvements straight away. The very first night she went from waking every 2 hours to waking just twice. Sometimes she only wakes once. The hard part is being consistent with it.


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## mrssunshine78

I imagine the consistency is hard when you're absolutely exhausted, think we'll have to do some reading up on it. Thanks


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## polaris

Thanks all. I think I will definitely start waking her at 7 as of tomorrow morning. I am generally up with my 3 year old at that time anyway so it makes sense. Also I really need her in a reasonably consistent schedule because I also have to make plans with 3 year old - it's not fair on him to be stuck at home all the time because Clara might be napping at that time!

To answer the questions - her bedtime is usually 7 p.m. although it is sometimes 7.30 before she is asleep. Her naps are good, two good naps per day usually about 1.25 hours each, sometimes a bit longer. Her daytime routine is actually very good, it's just the nights that are totally inconsistent!


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## stephie_corin

Good luck Polaris! 

Sunshine, I hope you have a good night.

Everything for us has gone haywire. It's all to do with feeds. I've mentioned before that my little man will only feed when its nap time or bed time. By laying him on the ground and leaning over him I can get him to take a small feed when he is hungry but he has gone from 4 big feeds to three big feeds and two very small feeds. The last two nights he has nursed to sleep at 6, slept ten minutes in my arms and then been wide-awake another hour looking for another feed.

So, should I just accept he will only take a big feed when sleepy and work with this, or work to break the feed to sleep association and stick to two naps?

Two naps works perfectly except for the feeding issue. I can get him to sleep in other ways, but I can't get him to take a big feed in other ways.

If I just embrace his preference for nursing at sleep I thought I could do something along the lines of the following:

6 wake
830 feed and sleep (45-60 mins)
12.30 feed and sleep (45-60 mins)
430/5 feed and short cat nap 15 mins
7 bed time and feed

I can persevere between the big feeds with lying down and feeding or giving sips of expressed milk from a sippy cup. It looks like long times between feeds but today he went almost 6 hours between big feeds :(

I'll offer tastes of solids through the day too (we are BLW).

I'm up to 10.5+ hours again awake time with the cat nap but I can't see what else to do. He seems happy with a three hour wake time now.

Sorry for the long post, I'm just not sure if the plan above is a good one or if I'd be better off just working on breaking his nurse/sleep association.


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## Sunnie1984

Right, I finally have 10 minutes to myself, so I'll try to catch up with the last few pages!

Stephie - the cosleeping arrangement looks perfect to me, hope it helps you. :thumbup:

On the feeding to sleep thing - I think you are still probably best sticking to two naps (as he's probably going to fight more than two soon anyway) and then try to feed him inbetween when he's hungry. 

Will he refuse feeds even if he is starving? Seren went through a bit of a milk strike at that age (formula not breast though) so C may be doing the same thing? If he won't take the milk, but is ok otherwise (and not suddenly waking for loads of night feeds) I wouldn't worry too much, he'll eat when he's hungry. 
:flower:

I'm not sure the guests are affecting her too much - it started the night we got home from holiday - so she should have slept better in her own bed, and before the guests arrived (that set anyway). She's usually more interested in bed than anything else, so I hope not! :haha:

Noelle - Thanks for replying. We put her down about 7:15pm tonight - after napping until 3:40pm and she went down without a fuss. She woke twice since, but our aircon is being a bit tempramental so I think she was too hot. 

Separation anxiety is during the day, not so much at night. It's particularly strong to OH - who works away a lot. He's been off this week so dreading tomorrow when he goes to work! 

Bedtime routine is just bath, bottle and bed. She won't tolerate stories, they wind her up. She's usually fine with it, and goes straight off. Hopefully now that the bedtime is later she'll be back to the normal. 

Shadowy - That's so cute, although I guess when you are trying to get her to sleep, animated chats with stuffed animals aren't helpful How did the later bedtime work for you? :sleep:

Polaris - we just went through a couple of week of random wake up times, although they seem to have settled down again in the last couple of days (possibly to do with the later bedtime). i think if Clara doesn't have a strong body clock, choose a wake time that works for you, and stick with it. Eventually her own body clock will wake her at that time. 

Seaweed - thanks! I'm not sure her separation anxiety is linked with bedtime, she doesn't seem to care :haha: It's more that when she's up, she wants to be held (as long as it suits her). 

I hope a bit of a later bedtime works for Munchkin too, it looks like most babies make the shift then, so it could well be why he's fighting bedtime. :shrug:

I do a lot of loud renditions of "Old McDonald" and "Row Row Row your Boat" when in the car. Coupled with turning the radio up loud and then turning it on and off whenever she closes her eyes. :dohh: I can usually do a 20 minute car ride without her falling asleep. I'm exhausted at the end of it, but so worth it when she naps in her cot and I get some time to myself! 

Gaia - Sounds like a good day. Hope it keeps up and the teeth pop up soon. I think Seren is going to be gummy forever, still no signs of teeth and she's 9 months! 

Sunshine - :hugs: i hope you find a method that works for you and your LO, so you can get some decent rest! 


We are doing ok here. i can't complain really as generally we have good nights (although we are still getting those random crying out in the middle of the night for no reason wake ups), but I can't cope with the screaming at bedtime.

Seren is now using a baby walker (the ones you stand up and hold onto, not the one you sit in) and is now wandering around the living room. Slightly scared as i think walking may now not be too far away, and it's way to early for that! I want to keep her as a baby a lot longer! 

x


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## polaris

Stephie, I would stick with two naps to be honest if it's working for him in relation to sleep. I think the feeding issue will resolve, if it's even an issue. Babies are remarkably good at regulating their own intake and getting what they need. I know it's very early to drop to three feeds but he's still feeding overnight too, right? Clara is actually very similar in that she won't really feed properly except before sleep. I do offer during the day when I know she's hungry but she'll only ever have a small bit. So she is only having three proper feeds per day (+ night feeds) and this has been the case for some time. She's always been a very efficient feeder though and I know she does take a good amount when she does have a proper feed. I reckon that unless they are actually losing weight and failing to thrive, that they are getting what they need. The co-sleeping arrangement looks ideal, by the way!

Sunnie, I have been meaning to get the baby walker out of the attic for Clara! I know exactly what you mean about not being ready for them to walk! Exciting though, all the same.

Seaweed - I've been racking my brains what you can do about the car nap! Do you know that was a small factor in my decision to get Thomas minded at home when I went back to work? I knew that I would never be able to keep him awake in the car on the way home from daycare and I just knew that it would totally mess up his whole routine! Would there be any way of avoiding the car nap for three or four days in a row, just as a test to see whether it improved the bedtime issue? I don't know how realistic that is. And anyway even if that is the issue, I don't know what you can do about it. But I guess if it is the car nap causing the bedtime issues, then sleep training might not be likely to work well to solve the problem?

OT for this thread, but I am really still struggling with dropping the final nap with DS. I am currently trying to give him a nap every two or three days but he still seems to be getting really overtired. He's cranky and over-emotional and falls asleep as soon as he gets in the car which hasn't happened in a very long time. By his behaviour I would say that he still needs the nap, but if he has the nap he won't sleep at bedtime. I'm feeling a bit worn out with it to be honest because he just turns into a different child when he's over-tired and becomes very difficult to live with to be honest. I'm also chronically tired myself so I guess we rub off each other! However this evening I've managed to get them both in bed and asleep by 7.15 so I have the evening to myself (until Clara wakes up anyway!).


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## Aimee4311

I just shattered Josalyn's world and ruined her little baby life! Or you'd think so by the way she was screaming! Lol. 

I tried something new. I laid her on her tummy on the bed and tried patting her to *try* put her to sleep that way, without holding her. It did not work! Within about 2 minutes she'd worked herself into hysterics and it took me about a half an hour of rocking, bouncing, patting, and shushing, to calm her back down! :dohh: Oh, and another short nursing session. My goodness. 

I won't be trying that again for a while! 

That may have been a failure, BUT we didn't nurse to sleep again! :happydance:


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## stephie_corin

Thanks everyone for the advice. I spoke to DH this morning after reading the replies and he thinks what you've all said makes sense, so we will stick to two naps and I will just trust C to take what he needs. He is having 2-3 night feeds (at least!) and he is above the 99% for weight so it seems silly to worry... It just seems SUCH a long time for him to go between feeds when he isn't taking in much solids.

I did express 5oz this morning though and will give him sips throughout the day as its getting very hot here (as Sunnie would know!)

I'm starting to see definite improvements in his sleep. He slept from 10pm-2am last night! I think anyway, I don't remember soothing him in between but if I did soothe him it didn't involve getting out of bed or breastfeeding. 

Sunnie, how cute that Seren doesn't have any teeth! I love the gummy smile pre teeth!! I'm sad C has a couple making their way through, similar to how you feel about the walker!

Polaris, I don't know how you do it with two!! How long is Thomas' nap? I don't know anything about naps for that age group but I wonder if you could give him a cat nap or some quiet time around nap time? I hope you enjoyed your evening and Clara didn't wake too early :)

Lol @ Aimee, they are such drama queens at this age! C is the same. If I do something slightly different than how he would like it done, it's major meltdown at the moment. Sorry it took so long to calm her down but well done again on not nursing to sleep. I had a ridiculous situation last night around 45 mins after bedtime. C was lying next to me on the bed and I was desperate for him to fall asleep and he kept nursing for a minute and then rolling over pretending to sleep. The minute I moved to get up he was back to nursing then rolling over. This went on for 20 minutes until I finally caved and rocked him to sleep.

I hope everyone has a great day :) xxx


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## Noelle610

Glad to read about some improvement here!

Stephanie, have you thought about trying an EASY - type routine? Feeding upon waking?


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## stephie_corin

Noelle I would LOVE to do easy but he won't feed on waking, even in the morning, and cries terribly if I don't feed him before a nap. I'm open to any suggestions from anyone on how to switch to easy though x


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## Aimee4311

I've wondered about the EASY routine too, but Josalyn also doesn't want to feed upon waking. I can often get her to in the middle of her awake time though... Maybe that's where to start?


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## mellyboo

Update Jords has been doing good.

only up about twice a night which i'll be doing CC as soon as I get back from Vacation but it's fine for right now i'm not too tired during the day and I have energy although it would be nice for her just to stay sleeping all night but it is what it is right now and i remember the days it was a wholeee lot worse so i'll count my blessings :)!!

She slept at my mom's place for the first time since being 2 months old because i was always scared she would have my mom up all night and thats just horrible my mom works full time still right now and has a pretty busy life .. but my mom was excited to have her and she slept good for my mom.

I was worried about taking her out of her sleeping element for vacation but i'm sure she will be fine if she was fine at my mom's ... I made her take her naps at mom's all week so it's not that un fimiliar but still when your sleeping at a strange place over night it always feels off if you know what i mean!

so i'm feeling more positive about vacation and OH and I won't be like zombies on vacay lol


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## polaris

stephie_corin said:


> Noelle I would LOVE to do easy but he won't feed on waking, even in the morning, and cries terribly if I don't feed him before a nap. I'm open to any suggestions from anyone on how to switch to easy though x

I've really tried to get Clara on to an EASY routine. I used EASY with Thomas and it worked so well. I really presumed that I would do EASY with Clara too but she had other ideas! I have been trying to introduce EASY from quite an early stage so I don't think that it's just that I got her into the habit of doing it this way.

She is the same as Stephie's LO in that she refuses to feed on waking and forcefully demands a feed before sleep. In the past I have tried to feed her in the middle of her awake time but she will only ever take a small feed at that time and still demands a feed at nap-time. I'm sure it would be possible to switch her to EASY but it seems like it would involve a lot of protest! I've given up for the moment to be honest. It's annoying because it makes it hard for anyone but me to put her down for a nap.


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## stephie_corin

I just wanted to thank everyone for encouraging me to stick with the two naps. It's worked really well again and bed time is getting easier and easier. First two nights were 3 hours, then 1 hour, 45 minutes and then tonight... 30 minutes for him to be asleep on our bed. He seems to be sleeping really soundly. 

I hope everyone has a great night xxx

ETA- he's been asleep since 630pm and its now 850pm. I feel really anxious and I don't know what to do with myself!


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## Noelle610

Glad it's going well Stephanie! I'm sorry I don't have advice to get her to eat upon awakening. I'll try to do some research and see what I can find.

Melly, I'm not surprised she slept well for your mom ;) The two nights I've been away from Charlotte she's slept excellently for DH.


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## NotNic

Stephie since you are starting out with BLW have you thought about adopting EASY by giving solids on waking? He probably doesn't have an established solids food routine yet, so it might be a good way to introduce the idea of eating after waking slowly. Then maybe try add a milk feed in before solids after a few days of consistently sticking to the solids in that order? I have no idea if that would work but could be worth a try.


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## Shadowy Lady

so for those of you guys who asked we did put Sofia down later the past 2 nights (put her down at 7:30 pm, she was asleep in less than 10 mins)....BUT she woke up at 5:30 am both mornings, whined for 20 mins or so then went back to sleep till 7 pm.

I don't understand, with the earlier bedtime and whining before going to sleep she was sttn till 6:30/7 am :/


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## seaweed eater

Hi everyone, sorry I've been quiet -- things have been busy.

Thanks for all of your suggestions about avoiding the car nap! Sunnie, I will definitely try turning the radio on and off -- I like that one. Gaiagirl, in fact, we have taken a road trip, and we had that problem! Combined with the fact that he rarely nurses well outside home...it was a challenge. :)

Ugh, but listen to what happened today. LO was up at 5:30, great morning nap 9-10:30. At 12:30 I was in the backseat of the car with him and his eyes were closing. "Well," I thought, "I'll wake him up after exactly 5 minutes, and then he'll probably be in a better mood at lunch and start his afternoon nap around 2:30-3, wake up around 3:30, and be ready for bed at 7:30 -- perfect." Not so much. In fact his afternoon nap started at 4, I woke him at 4:30, and he was asleep at 8:30. Ugh! So a 5-minute car nap probably cost him at least an hour of sleep. Lesson learned: NO AVOIDABLE CAR NAPS, EVER.

Shadowy, how strange about the 5:30 waking :( I'm sorry, I don't know what to suggest. Maybe an intermediate bedtime of 7:15, if you think she's overtired?

Stephie, I'm really glad 2 naps is going well for you :thumbup: 2 x 45-60 minutes is pretty normal for us, or even a good day, so I would say it is definitely a good place to start. Regarding feeds, I think it's normal for them to be on fewer of those per day now. As he starts to take more solids I'm sure those will fill the gaps, as well as EBM in a cup as you mentioned. You could also try mixing it with cereal/avocado/banana/etc and either feed him with a spoon, or let him try to figure out the spoon himself. I hope you got over your anxiety about how long he'd been sleeping when you posted, and managed to get some sleep yourself! :)

Twister, glad things are still going well for you :thumbup:

Sunnie, I don't really have advice about the daytime separation anxiety clinginess, but I know it's tough if you are used to letting them play independently :hugs: my approach is basically WIO...I assume I can't change his fears by forcing him to be away from me, so I let him cling. Within reason, of course -- if I need to use the bathroom or leave him at daycare, I just make sure to say bye bye, tell him when I'm coming back, and make sure he sees me leaving, and then get it over with even if he's crying. It was pretty overwhelming at first but I think I have actually gotten more used to it.

I know what you mean about practicing walking. Our babies are really growing up :cry:

Aimee, how did tonight go? I wouldn't worry about the tummy settling. You really don't know how things will go until you try them once! I'm sure she will forgive you :haha:

Polaris, did you wake Clara at 7 this morning? How did it go? Is she feeling better? I hope things go better with your son. You really have been struggling with this transition for a while, and it sounds tough :hugs: does it help to remind yourself that it WILL be over soon? I hope it's really soon!

Sunshine :hugs: I hope you decide on a method that you feel good about. Collectively we've all tried various things so I'm sure you'll be able to get advice from at least a couple people here on whatever you decide to do.

Gaia, sounds like Friday went well! How have the past couple days been? :hugs: And how is Arrested Development?? I'll watch that someday when I have time, like maybe after the kids are all out of the house. :haha:

I hope I got everyone! :hugs: to all, hope tonight is a good one :thumbup:


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## stephie_corin

Sorry I will respond properly later... I just wanted to say damn you BnB curse!!! We had a horrible night!! I think it's because he saw DH at 10pm when we went to bed. He woke up and got really excited and took 1.5 hours to settle then up every 45 minutes. Boo hoo.

Just going to close my eyes for a few minutes while Culver is sleeping xx


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## polaris

Just a quick post to update - we had a great night last night! Only two wakings at 11 and 4 and straight back to sleep after a feed both times! Now why can't she just do that every night?? I feel so well rested this morning.


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## NotNic

Sunnie I agree about WIO as a whole. Almost every baby has a phase as they start understanding consequences and the fact you can leave them. I largely tried to ignore unnecessary tears. If he's clinging to my legs and I'm not cooking etc. I let him hold on but don't pick him up. If I am doing something where we could get hurt I unpick him and sit him down away from me. Throughout the day I'd leave him for a few seconds and come back with a peek-a-boo and big hellos so he's used to me returning. I tried my hardest not to pick him up if he's just crying for attention. The advice about saying goodbye properly and succinctly is great advice. It's how my nursery encourage us to act


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## stephie_corin

Melly, enjoy your vacation! Where are you headed?

Notnic, that is such a great idea!! Thanks! We already do breakfast on waking so I will start doing solids after his other wake times too.

Shadowy, sorry about the early wakings.

SE, how frustrating! The smallest nap resets Munchkin completely! I guess in some ways I'm lucky that C will only fall asleep after rocking and nursing as it means I can control his sleep a bit better. I hope you find a solution to the car naps! And definitely watch Arrested Development when you get the chance, it's so funny!! 

Polaris, yay for Clara sleeping well! Hopefully this is the start of a new, good sleep pattern for both of you!

Aimee, how have your nights been?

I went to a baby group this morning and made the mistake of saying how badly C has been sleeping. They are all so nice but it makes me feel bad that he is sleeping so badly when everyone else has perfect little sleeping babies! 

I hope everyone has a great day and gets lots of sleep tonight :)


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## bananaz

*polaris* - So glad you had a good night :) I hope it's the start of a trend!

*seaweed* - Ugh, car naps are the worst! I try to avoid them whenever possible, except if I think LO needs a little catnap to keep her from being overtired before bed.

*Shadowy* - Sorry about the 5:30 waking, but at least she's not pooping and she's going back to sleep until 7am! Hopefully whatever's making her stir will pass.

*stephie* - Sorry to hear about your rough night. That sounds seriously awful :( I hope you're able to find some time for rest today.


Just need a quick vent about these darn early wakings. LO is still getting up between 5 and 5:30am every day and it's getting really old. For the past couple weeks I've been letting her fuss until 6am and it seemed to work for a couple days but then she went back to the early wakings. 

She is taking two naps most days so she's not overtired and I've been making sure she's up before 4pm so it doesn't interfere with bedtime. She goes down between 7pm and 7:30pm and I don't think an earlier bedtime would help because the one night I tried putting her down at 6:30pm she was up at 4:45am :wacko:

I'm really running out of ideas here. Should I move her bedtime to 8pm?? Try my original tactic of nursing or patting her back to sleep again even though it never worked before? Just give up?


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## Aimee4311

Hey y'all! We're doing fine, still not nursing to sleep. I haven't worked up the will power to try refusing to give her the boob in the middle of the night though. I feel well rested even though she was latched to me probably half the night. 

But I think the 2+ hour stretch she's giving me in the beginning of the night is really helping me feel human! I get to play board games again with OH and our friends and not have to sit out for half of it from having to repeatedly get her back to sleep! Zombicide is our board game if choice right now in case you're wondering! :)

I plan to start cutting back the night feeds slowly. I just need to gather the willpower! :)


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## bananaz

Aimee4311 said:


> Hey y'all! We're doing fine, still not nursing to sleep. I haven't worked up the will power to try refusing to give her the boob in the middle of the night though. I feel well rested even though she was latched to me probably half the night.
> 
> But I think the 2+ hour stretch she's giving me in the beginning of the night is really helping me feel human! I get to play board games again with OH and our friends and not have to sit out for half of it from having to repeatedly get her back to sleep! Zombicide is our board game if choice right now in case you're wondering! :)
> 
> I plan to start cutting back the night feeds slowly. I just need to gather the willpower! :)

Yay, so glad things are improving and you're getting a bit of a break :thumbup:


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## Shadowy Lady

Bananaz - early mornings suck! I would try a slightly later bedtime since you seem to have tried everything else. Can you put her down at around 7:45pm?

So I guess the previous nights might have been a fluke coz last night I put her down at 7:30 pm and she slept till 6:45 am :) It was nice of her to do so as my hubby is away on business this week. Of course I was up at 5 am waiting for her to wake up, boooo!


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## mellyboo

Oh man what a night ... I put her to bed early because i was soo tired and so was she she was so tired she fell asleep in OH arms in the rocking chair she never does that anymore shes never wants to be rocked he put her down in her crib didn't hear a peep till about 11ish she was on her tummy woke up and must of felt off because she started to cry she can get off but its on her own time she just whine's until i get her off most of the time but she has no problem rolling around the living room floor some times.. strange anyhow.. so again she's up at 3am and won't go back to bed till 4 am AUGH she slept right through till 7am here thank god I was so tired this morning... 

I'm going to make sure she has her usual nap around 3pm because yesterday she skipped it and was all messed up..


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## seaweed eater

Shadowy, glad this morning was better! :happydance:

Bananaz, I'd try a later bedtime too...maybe for a couple of nights or more to really get a sense of what happens. Might not work, but you won't know for sure until you try.
Or, do you think she's ready for one nap? You said two naps most days so maybe you have some days with one nap -- are those any different?

Stephie, so sorry you had a rough night :hugs: hope you got some rest! Hate that curse! Yeah, talking about sleep at baby group can be hit or miss. Sometimes people are sympathetic, but sometimes it just makes me feel like such a mess.

Polaris, that is an awesome night! :yipee: I hope there are more like it on the way!!

Aimee, I'm glad things are going well :thumbup: as long as you are feeling rested and things are better at bedtime I don't think you should be in a hurry to stop the night feeds. She's learning how to settle without the boob at bedtime, and that will transfer to NWs when it's time to start feeding her less. You can always start working on it as soon as it becomes a problem for you.

Melly, I'm sorry you had a rough night :hugs: I hope LO is feeling better and you have time to get some rest today.

So-so night here, and too short = grumpy LO in the morning. I just wish he knew why he sleeps in some days and not others -- ha, don't we all! :haha: But he seems to be up between 5 and 6 most days, it's just that sometimes it's a NW and he goes back to sleep for another cycle or two and sometimes he's ready to get up. For the past few weeks I've been trying to keep him in his bed in the dark (sitting by his bed and shushing -- I can't ignore him or he'll really cry) until 6 but it doesn't seem to have changed anything. Except for DH, who lets me take a nap when LO wakes up and who therefore gets to sleep until 6 every day now :p


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## AngelUK

I know I don't really belong here any more but still like to read up on your progress and see if I can pick up a tip or two re napping. But first:

Bananaz I was wondering, what time does Elsie wake from her last nap? I always try to have the boys awake for about 4 hours to 4h30 before bed time or they won't want to sleep without kicking up a fuss (I say they but I mean Dominic). Also, how many hours a day does she nap? Might she nap too long? My boys sleep for about 12 hours a night and only about 1h20 for one nap max and then usually 40 mins for the second nap. 

As for us, I just wanted your experience or thoughts on this dilemma. My boys now wake after 7am each day (YAY!) but this causes me a problem with how to time their naps. Usually I would keep them up 3h30 between naps which meant 1st nap at about 9:30am to 10am maybe 11am and then second nap 1:30 pm to ca 2pm. Now however this doesn't work out any more. By my rule of thumb they should now nap at 11am to 12:30 but then the second nap would be far too late in the day for their 7pm bed time. But if I skip the second nap they would be up for 6h30! :wacko: Can you imagine?! Any ideas? 
Hope all are well and sorry for butting in like this after all this time. :flower:


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## polaris

Bananaz, you could try moving the whole schedule forward by an hour, i.e. change naptimes too (and meal times and feeds if possible). Pretend that the clocks have changed and just do everything an hour later. Could possibly work although it never did with Thomas, he somehow always adjusted back to waking at 5.30. I ended up just giving up. It didn't fix itself until he was ready to move to one nap.

AngelUK - it sounds like your boys might be ready to move to one nap - I would try keeping them up until 11.30 or 12 and then give them an earlier bedtime temporarily until they (hopefully) adjust to one nap.


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## Sunnie1984

Bananaz - have you looked at the possibility of just one nap? 

She may be undertired, not overtired? I remember Elsie was more sensitive to undertired than over tired - like Seren? 

You could move bedtime later, but maybe an extension of the first awake time is needed to get to one nap, and an earlier bedtime? xx


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## bananaz

So many responses! :) You gals are too sweet.

Unfortunately it doesn't seem to matter whether she takes two naps or one, or how long her wake time is before bedtime. In fact, looking at the only 2 times she slept in past 6am this month, the first day she had 1 nap and was up for 5.5 hours before bed and then the second day she had 2 naps and was up for 3.5 hours before bed. I really think she's just trying to mess with me! :haha:

She generally gets between 1.5-2.5 hours of naps a day, so I believe that's pretty typical for this age? Not sure. She only gets around 10 hours of sleep at night though (sometimes less), and I don't think that's enough.



polaris said:


> Bananaz, you could try moving the whole schedule forward by an hour, i.e. change naptimes too (and meal times and feeds if possible). Pretend that the clocks have changed and just do everything an hour later. Could possibly work although it never did with Thomas, he somehow always adjusted back to waking at 5.30. I ended up just giving up. It didn't fix itself until he was ready to move to one nap.


That's an interesting idea, I'll have to think about that one!




Sunnie1984 said:


> Bananaz - have you looked at the possibility of just one nap?
> 
> She may be undertired, not overtired? I remember Elsie was more sensitive to undertired than over tired - like Seren?
> 
> You could move bedtime later, but maybe an extension of the first awake time is needed to get to one nap, and an earlier bedtime? xx

You're definitely right, she's way more sensitive to being undertired than overtired, and I think that's becoming more pronounced as she's gotten older. We've had a few tries at a single nap but I don't think she's quite ready yet, so we're stuck in that weird transition phase again! I will be trying a later bedtime tonight though, we'll see if that helps...


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## seaweed eater

Ugh, today LO's nap ended at 3:20, I put him down at 7:30 after he fell asleep nursing (for less than a minute), he woke up instantly and now at nearly 8:30 is still wide awake. I tried sitting quietly with him in his room but be wouldn't even sit still so I took him outside to play some more, and he's been playing completely independently FOR AN HOUR. I'm sure he's undertired, because when I wait until I see sleepy signs he usually goes down super easily. It's as if he wants to drop a nap, but that's completely impossible...right?? Tell me that's insane?


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## bananaz

seaweed eater said:


> Ugh, today LO's nap ended at 3:20, I put him down at 7:30 after he fell asleep nursing (for less than a minute), he woke up instantly and now at 8:30 is still wide awake. I tried sitting quietly with him in his room but be wouldn't even sit still so I took him outside to play some more, and he's been playing completely independently FOR AN HOUR. I'm sure he's undertired, because when I wait until I see sleepy signs he usually goes down super easily. It's as if he wants to drop a nap, but that's completely impossible...right?? Tell me that's insane?

Oh no, I hate when they fall asleep for a moment and then it somehow counts as a nap! There's no way he's ready to drop to one nap at 8 months though. Sounds like he's just having a weird night. I'm crazy jealous that he'll play by himself for an hour, though I'm sure it's a wee bit obnoxious that he's doing it when he's supposed to be asleep lol


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## seaweed eater

Yeah, he's generally really ready for his first nap at 9 so I can't imagine trying to keep him awake until midday. His mood seems to improve significantly after each nap, even though his naps are usually 40 minutes. He's really grumpy and clingy in the morning and recently has been super happy and active in his last WT. I wish he'd somehow get more sleep at night. :( He's asleep now btw! I put him down a few minutes after I wrote the above. :shrug: BnB curse, stay away.


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## stephie_corin

Aimee, Zombicide sounds hilarious! It's nice having some time to yourself in the evenings. What time is she heading to bed now?

Shadowy, I hope she keeps sleeping in! It's tough when DH is away.

Melly, sorry she woke up in the night!! I hope you catch up on some rest.

Bananaz, my ability to get C back to sleep varies greatly, like SE. The last few days have been 610, 555, 515, 630 and today 540. I think I have the most success when I get to him just as he has woken up. I think you've had some good suggestions though and I think you may as well try a later bed time. As an aside, I now have the same problem as Polaris in that his days are never the same as he has different wakeup times!! We've decided to set an alarm for 6am (we live in hope!).

SE, you seem to be having the same problem as us! I have a similar deal with my DH. He takes C for a walk no matter what time he gets up and I take another 10-15min snooze. It's nice to have a small rest in the mornings! Regarding naps, C is now having 4 hours between his last nap and bedtime and its still taking him 30 minutes or so to settle. Maybe you need to increase the last waketime?
EDIT- sorry SE I just did the maths and you've got a 4 hour waketime. Stupid sleep deprived brain! This is such a distractible age. I have no idea how our boys are functioning on so little sleep!!

Angel, that sounds tough!! I'm not sure of the answer but good luck :)

We had an ok night. He did another great 2 hour stretch after going down and I think he was up around 7 times between 10-530. I'm sure his teeth are bothering him again.

I've decided to make a plan of action to tackle over the next few months and I think I'll start with naps. My goal is to help him get to sleep with minimal assistance. So I'm going to gradually reduce the amount of rocking and also try the gentle removal method once I think he has finished nursing. Also, he currently sleeps in his bouncer chair - it's a baby bjorn babysitter if that means anything to anyone. Should I start getting him to nap on our bed instead? The beauty if the bouncy chair is I can give him a quick bounce when he wakes after 20 minutes and often he will go back to sleep. I fear we will be back to 20 minute naps if I change his napping place but he is getting too big for the chair and bouncing won't further our long term goal of SLEEP! Ha!

Xxx


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## stephie_corin

SE, I've done a google search on one nap for babies previously and anecdotally there are some mums with babies as young as 7 months on one nap. I agree, 8 months is so early, but what have you got to lose? Or maybe make his morning nap a 15 minute nap and let him take an earlier, longer afternoon nap (if he wants). I think Cully is a candidate for an early nap transition as he can stay awake for hours if I don't force a nap on him! X


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## Aimee4311

Good luck with the gentle removal, Stephie! When I try and gently remove the boob, even if she was mostly asleep, Josalyn starts rooting again, angrily! :haha:

I have Josalyn nap on our bed, but I sometimes wish she'd nap in her crib. She hasn't slept at all in her crib since like 2 months. 

If you're planning to transition him back out of your bed anytime soon I'd say keep him napping in there to keep it associated with sleep! For Josalyn it's a play area in the mornings! :)

We're back to the late (as in, asleep by 8:45-9:15) bedtime... 2 nights in a row this week we had an early bedtime and it didn't work out. Both of those mornings she woke up in the 6 o'clock hour and was miss cranky pants all day. Both of those days she ended up having 4 naps too. 

I'm happy with her being asleep by 8:45-9:15. It seems to suit her well. We're a late family anyways, we're all night owls!


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## stephie_corin

Aimee if it suits you guys no need to change a thing, I think! We're the opposite, I love an early night and 6am is no bother to me :) I think on one of the other threads Noelle said waketime preferences and bedtime preferences can be genetic!

I'm just putting him down for nap 2 and so far I haven't bounced or rocked him. He's nursing so I'm watching for the right moment to unlatch him. It's hard as I don't want to stop him taking milk as he is down to only 3 proper day feeds now. So what do you do Aimee if not gentle removal? Do you wake J up if she falls asleep nursing? X

Edit- damn he fell asleep! He did open his mouth for more but when I didn't put it back in he wasn't remotely fussed and kept on sleeping!!

Edit again- he woke after 20 minutes and I bounced him in the chair to get back to sleep. On reflection, rocking is much harder on me in the night than nursing (as I have to get out of bed!) - had anyone had any luck breaking the rock to sleep habit? I thought I should start rocking less and less until he is happy just being picked up or patted. But I'm not sure how quickly to reduce the rocking...


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## AngelUK

Thank you all so much for your responses :D You are sweet! I will think about your advice thank you. I hope all your sleep and nap problems will resolve themselves very soon :) xx


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## polaris

Well after our great night on Sunday night we had an awful night again last night. Clara actually slept all evening until 10 p.m. which was nice but then she woke at 10 and wouldn't go back to sleep until maybe 1.30 or 2. She didn't seem like she wanted to be awake but she just couldn't settle. Maybe teething again? (Forgot to mention she got her second tooth the day after one of our recent dreadful nights). Eventually I gave her Nurofen and she did settle after that so I'm thinking she must have been uncomfortable. I probably should have given it earlier. She slept OK the rest of the night until my 3 year old woke us both up at 6.30.

Stephie, we have that bouncy chair, it's great! Thomas used to nap in it a lot but Clara never used it for sleeping although she loves bouncing herself in it. I used to bounce Thomas for the duration of all his naps for ages because he would wake up if I stopped bouncing! I think in the end I just moved him to the cot for naps and I do remember it was a lot easier than I was expecting. Thomas always cried for about five minutes before naps but then would go to sleep, I used to sit beside him with my hand on his tummy. He cried before naps when I was bouncing him in the bouncy chair too though so it was actually no difference after I moved him to the cot. 

Seaweed, I would be reluctant to move to one nap at this age. Could it be developmental, is he working on anything major at the moment? With both of mine they have gone through phases of seeming a bit wired when they are learning something new. Of course it's possible that he might drop to one nap early but I would hold out for the moment and see if this phase passes.


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## stephie_corin

I've decided to go cold turkey on rocking. Tonight we lay on the bed and I held him and he nursed and fell asleep in my arms! It still took 30 mins but I'm so pleased. We did rock in the rocking chair for ten minutes just to wind down but I think that's ok!

Polaris, the things we do for naps!!! I'll have a mental image of you rocking Thomas every time I use my chair now! I'm going to try tomorrow just holding him on our bed and see how it goes (for naps as well as bed time).

I'm so sorry you had a rubbish night. I hope it is just teething and the tooth pops out ASAP! 

SE ignore my comment about 1 nap, I'm sure everyone else is right!

Good luck for tonight everyone! X


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## seaweed eater

Stephie, good luck with your plan. How wonderful that he fell asleep with no rocking tonight! :happydance: I hope you find he just doesn't need it anymore! Munchkin used to nap in his bouncy chair months ago. I think we stopped around 4 or 4 1/2 months. It wasn't really difficult at all, but he wasn't falling asleep as well after being bounced so I think he was ready. Also, I was never able to extend his naps that way, anyway (although I know he was much younger and could only be expected to take catnaps). I'm not sure what my point is :haha: I guess just that if you think he's getting big for it, you might as well try. I think your bed is probably more similar to wherever you will want him sleeping in the long term (in that it's horizontal and doesn't bounce!) so it might not be a bad idea to get him used to that for naps.

Aimee, I agree with Stephie, if it's working for you and for J, no need to change it! :thumbup:

Polaris, so sorry you had a bad night last night. :hugs: I hope the next tooth is out soon. Glad to hear she finally got the second one, I was feeling a bit concerned about how much longer it could be for us :p

I'll write an update on us a bit later. :hugs: to all, hope tonight goes well.


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## Aimee4311

Stephie- she unlatches herself if she'd just feeding, not trying to go to sleep. If she's trying to go to sleep (nap time) I rock or pat her while nursing her. Normally. There's been only a couple of times in recent months where she just fell asleep at the boob with no assistance from me. 

When she falls asleep at the boob I have to wait until she's deeply asleep to unlatch her or it wakes her up and she gets angry! 

It's tiresome work, getting babies to sleep!


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## seaweed eater

We had just an awful night, and no new teeth to show for it. So tired today.

I have a question for you ladies though. I was talking to a friend who said that when she did CC with her very persistent baby, she set a time limit of 45 minutes and at that point would go in and do whatever it took to get LO to sleep if she wasn't asleep yet. And that she did in fact have to stop at 45 minutes on several occasions at the beginning. She said it did work, though probably more gradually than it would have if she'd stuck with CC for however long it took each night. I was surprised because to me it would seem like going in at 45 = intermittent reinforcement = baby who will *definitely* cry for 45 minutes every night. But my friend said she found that her daughter just didn't seem to find it worthwhile once she got better at self-settling.

What do you guys think about an approach like that? I would be so much more willing to try that, if I thought it would help, than do "real" CC and endure the hours of crying that 1000% for sure would result.


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## bananaz

seaweed eater said:


> We had just an awful night, and no new teeth to show for it. So tired today.
> 
> I have a question for you ladies though. I was talking to a friend who said that when she did CC with her very persistent baby, she set a time limit of 45 minutes and at that point would go in and do whatever it took to get LO to sleep if she wasn't asleep yet. And that she did in fact have to stop at 45 minutes on several occasions at the beginning. She said it did work, though probably more gradually than it would have if she'd stuck with CC for however long it took each night. I was surprised because to me it would seem like going in at 45 = intermittent reinforcement = baby who will *definitely* cry for 45 minutes every night. But my friend said she found that her daughter just didn't seem to find it worthwhile once she got better at self-settling.
> 
> What do you guys think about an approach like that? I would be so much more willing to try that, if I thought it would help, than do "real" CC and endure the hours of crying that 1000% for sure would result.


My LO's pediatrician recommended a similar approach. He said to start with 15 minutes and then increase the time by 10-15 minutes each night, with a max of 45 minutes. I never tried it because it seemed crazy to me, but who knows!


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## stephie_corin

SE I guess it depends on Munchkin's temperament. If he is stubborn and wilful, you could be right and he may just learn to cry for 45 minutes. Have you done cc before? How long did he cry for? I recommended this blog post to Twister and you might find it useful:

https://www.healthytippingpoint.com/2012/12/adventures-in-baby-sleep-training.html

She had an upper limit of 60-90 mins for regular crying (with intermittent checks) but said she never got close to that. So having an upper limit can't be too uncommon.

Good luck. You are a sensitive, intelligent woman. I'm sure whatever sleep training route you go will be the right one for your family xxx


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## stephie_corin

DH and I were talking this morning and he thinks things have definitely got better. I agree with him! Normally we would be up and down every half hour or so between 6-10 to pick Culver up and rock him or nurse him to sleep. The last few nights he has slept solidly with only 1 wakeup until 930-10 when we get to bed. I nurse him and then he sleeps next to me now. Last night was amazing ... He still woke frequently but I didn't have to get out if bed and rock him. The most I had to do was pick him up. At 5am when he woke I did sit in bed and sway back and forth to get him to sleep. I had to do this a few times but he woke at 6am!!! Yay! That last hour is always the most difficult but I'm hoping with time I will just be able to cuddle him and one day he will even sleep through! Ha! I live in hope!

I'm just nursing him now for nap 1 and he cried a bit as he is used to bouncing and rocking but not too much crying and Im just about to put him down on our bed. It's proving to be quite difficult but I will persevere! X

Edit - I tried to ease away from him and he woke crying. Now I'm holding him swaying gently on the bed. Not sure if this is progress? I guess I can't expect too much from him as he has always taken naps in his chair (for the last few months anyway). I don't want him to only be able to nap in my arms. That half hour in his chair twice a day was a sanity saver!

Edit again - I've tried putting him down three times but all he's done is cry. Should I keep trying to break him of his bouncy chair sleep addiction? My instincts say yes but my arms say no, and my bladder!


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## gaiagirl

stephie_corin said:


> DH and I were talking this morning and he thinks things have definitely got better. I agree with him! Normally we would be up and down every half hour or so between 6-10 to pick Culver up and rock him or nurse him to sleep. The last few nights he has slept solidly with only 1 wakeup until 930-10 when we get to bed. I nurse him and then he sleeps next to me now. Last night was amazing ... He still woke frequently but I didn't have to get out if bed and rock him. The most I had to do was pick him up. At 5am when he woke I did sit in bed and sway back and forth to get him to sleep. I had to do this a few times but he woke at 6am!!! Yay! That last hour is always the most difficult but I'm hoping with time I will just be able to cuddle him and one day he will even sleep through! Ha! I live in hope!
> 
> I'm just nursing him now for nap 1 and he cried a bit as he is used to bouncing and rocking but not too much crying and Im just about to put him down on our bed. It's proving to be quite difficult but I will persevere! X
> 
> Edit - I tried to ease away from him and he woke crying. Now I'm holding him swaying gently on the bed. Not sure if this is progress? I guess I can't expect too much from him as he has always taken naps in his chair (for the last few months anyway). I don't want him to only be able to nap in my arms. That half hour in his chair twice a day was a sanity saver!

Our babies and our sleeping arrangements are SOooo similar! 

Seaweed, one nap? Sorry I didn't go back very far because I'm short on time but that seems unusual! Babies really ARE all individuals though, you just never know.

We have had an interesting few days. All started with my mother putting F down for a nap when we were visiting yesterday. He took a soother again (it's been MONTHS of refusing it) and she rocked him to sleep! No boob!

Then I was able to get him to sleep with it several times today. And transfers to the crib with a soother in!? Easy peasy! Can't believe it!

Now...on the other hand, he's crazy teething and woke up hysterical this evening poor baby. He's never cried like that in his whole little life :( Broke my heart. Soooo not all good, but some interesting progress :)

Soothers = no boob to sleep = DADS turn to deal with him! Lol


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## VikkiD

Hope everyone is ok Daniel is sleeping through but mornings are getting earlier this morning it was 4.30 I gave him a bottle an managed get him go sleep at 5 till 6. Is day routine yesterday seemed good wake around 5.30 nap at 9-10.10 another nap 1:30-2:40 asleep at 6:50 the only other thing I have done is take his afternoon bottle of him maybe he still needs this as last night he gulped his bottle like he's never had milk before 9oz an at 5am he drank 8oz really fast. I am grateful he's sleeping better but these early mornings are a killer


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## jade1991

I knew I was getting closer and closer to needing this thread haha.

Millie now wakes at 530 every day. It doesnt matter if she goes down at 6/630/7 she still wakes at 530 :( although this, i thought i could handle. However this past week her old crying when i leave her room stunt has come back with a vegence. She goes into full meltdown when i walk out, stands in her cot throws hee comfort blanket and dummy out.... occasionally i can leave hee for 5 mins and she will settle and go to sleep but others she literally screams for an hour ( i go back and for in 5-10 min intervals to give her her dummy back. 

Now shes started waking crying in the night 1-3 times a night. If i go in and she sees me i have to stay there til shes asleep. Last night she woke at 130am in play mode! I went back and for, ended up with her in mt bed for half hour and she still didnt settle, took her back to her cot and 5 mins of crying she was asleep. That was 3am. Then she woke at 530 ready for the day. 

I feel like im running on empty. I work too and all this interupted sleep is getting to me now. Has anyone got any suggestions to what i can do to try and improve the hassle of bedtime and help her sleep better?! Thanks ladies :flower:


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## Sunnie1984

Ok - time to catch up! 


Polaris - I know, it's horrible that they grow up so fast! Seren absolutely loves the walker, she's been pushing it all over the living room! 

With Thomas, have you tried quiet time around the time he would usually nap. Maybe a bit of TV or reading book? So he gets the downtime without actually going to sleep? 

Definitely sounds like teething with Clara. Hope it settles soon. 

Aimee - Sorry Josalyn is so resistant to change! 

Stephie - I know, it's so funny she still has no teeth! I don't think there are any coming either! It's great you are making progress with the no rocking. If it helps, the baby whisperer has a book called "THe baby whisperer solves all your problems". It's like a trouble shooting book for when you want to change things. I find it works really well, and it's useful to have something written down to try, as you can keep checking it :blush: I have a copy if you want to borrow it? 

I agree on the giving solids on waking, so that he at least gets used to eating at that time. As it's new and exciting you can usually get them to take something! 

Melly - I'm glad Jordan has been making progress on the whole. I hope she sleeps well on your vacation. 

Skipping naps are just the worst!

Shadowy - I think it's just the change to the new sleep pattern, we got some early wakings from Seren as we made the later bedtime. Hopefully it will settle down. 

Seaweed - Thanks for the tips on separation anxiety. I'm just rolling with it for now. I find if I sit on the floor with her, she goes off to play, and then I can get up and do something for a little while, which is great. 

I hope you have more luck with the resettling in the morning. Seren is the same, mega grumpy if she gets up too early. :dohh:

I'm also in the same place with naps. I think you may have to cap both naps, so that he is awake early enough for bed. Some babies have really long final wakings, so you may need to make sure he is awake for 3pm?

No idea on the CC - but I think everyone else is right, it must depend on your baby and how they would take to it. I guess it's normal to have a personal cut off point though. 

Notnic - Thanks, that really helps. 

Bananaz - I've been thinking about Elsie a little. Last night Seren slept until 4pm for her last nap, and was a nightmare to get to bed, followed by three night wakings. I think she was undertired again. 

Have you thought about capping her naps? So Elsie is awake by 3:30pm at the latest for a 7:30pm bedtime? You might have to cap both morning and afternoon naps a little bit to get her there. 

I wonder if robbing too much nighttime sleep may be a bad idea, as naps and night sleep aren't related? 

Also, if you are in the transition period for one nap, have you though about begging to extend her morning awake time by just ten minutes, and holding it for a few days, then increasing by another 10 again? That might get her to head towards one nap, but gently?

AngelUK - I'd say begin to stretch the morning awake time by 10 minutes every few days, with the intent to move to one nap. You can give an earlier bedtime while they adjust? Alternatively, same as I've said to Bananaz - try capping both naps? 


Gaiagirl - No boob to sleep sounds great! 

Vikkid - maybe he's hit a growth spurt - can you increase the milk he has during the day? 

Jade - :hugs: I'm not sure what to suggest, but the other ladies will! 

xxx


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## NotNic

Jade - that sounds tough. Does she have separation anxiety in the day? F doesn't tend to cry when I leave the room at bedtime. He can be a jack-in-a-box so I just lay him back down in a boring way - no cuddles, no eye contact. I also have his Alfie Vtech Bear and a couple of soft bricks so I sometimes lie him down and give him Alfie. Sometimes the distraction works. Also rather nuttily I have been known to say sweet dreams, lay down on the floor next to the cot and pretend to be asleep when we're having naptime 'discussions'. Quite often that at least gets him to sit down and calm down. Could you also think about not leaving the room - just sitting quietly but not somewhere she can interact with you? So at least your presence is reassuring.

Vikki - rather than removing the on bottle completely could you give him a smaller 4/5oz bottle as a snack? Also talking of snack when we first dropped the bottle we replaced that with water and snacks to help bridge the gap.

Angel I agree with the one nap advice. I thought the same as soon as I read your post.

Apologies it was a few pages back, but I think it was Seaweed who was considering needing one nap? Around that age we did occasionally get one nap days. Around 5pm was horrific! It was mostly developmental and we were having occasional 3hr naps from 9.40. I think Noelle suggested to me about capping that nap but I was too chicken!! We got past it by doing lots of floor playing - crawling, standing up, basically making sure he was so worn out 2 naps were essential! He's more used to the activity now so doesn't really work anymore except for nursery.

Here something strange has happened. A couple of days this past week he's woken at 5am. He's not crying so I leave him. He then goes back to sleep on his own sleeping in between 6.20 today (though I opened the curtains to wake him up gently) and 7.30 yesterday. This from the boy who rarely made it to 6.30am!! Also last Monday's bad, bad night was explained as a tooth appeared on Saturday morning. A definite pattern has emerged. The worst nights - up 6-7 times before 3am are followed by a tooth within the week. That has happened with all of them now. Maybe it's the same for some of your teething babies.


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## VikkiD

Sunnie - I think I will try him back on 3 bottles today to see if that helps maybe he's not ready to drop one yet xx


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## Bun87

Hi ladies, hope you don't mind me crashing this thread.. I am feeling hopeless about naps :-( my little boy will not nap, he fights them all day long! It's really getting me down, I feel so frustrated with him and I know it's not his fault :-( Noelle, you have replied to a few threads of mine about sleep issues, thank you  

I think I'm just hoping that there is some light at the end of this dark tunnel. Does or did anyone have a really bad napper that got better? I'm waiting for the no cry nap solution book to arrive, has anyone used this? 

Here are Jac's naps and sleep from 8:30pm last night - he is 6.4 weeks old:

8:30pm - 12am sleep
1-4am sleep
5-7 sleep
8-8:45am nap
11-11:45am nap
1:50-2:20pm nap
5pm to present, nap.

He is currently napping on me with white noise playing. He has woken up twice but I've managed to get him asleep again thank goodness. Right now ill let him sleep on me for hours if he wants, he looks so tired :-( x


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## Gidz

Bun - his naps looks good to me. At that age, they cat nap often. How long is he awake for? I think the max should be no more than an hour at his age. Also, sleeping on you is very common. He is so young, enjoy it now. Soon enough, the length of his nap times will improve and he will be sleeping by himself.


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## Bun87

At all other times he is awake, today has been a good day - sometimes he will stay awake for 6 hours solid. He's awake again now so will have some activity time then try and get him down after next feed. I love cuddling him while sleeps, I just wish he'd do it more - I hate seeing him tired! :-( x


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## stephie_corin

I'm about to head to bed... Will catch up with everyone properly tomorrow. I just wanted to say we had another good evening. No rocking and he has been asleep for almost 2 hours with not a peep. Naps were pretty terrible. I had to hold him for all of them but I guess it's a work in progress! 

Sending everyone lots of sleepy vibes xxx


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## Gidz

Bun87 said:


> At all other times he is awake, today has been a good day - sometimes he will stay awake for 6 hours solid. He's awake again now so will have some activity time then try and get him down after next feed. I love cuddling him while sleeps, I just wish he'd do it more - I hate seeing him tired! :-( x

Six hours is an awfully long time. I think he may be overly tired. I would aim to have him nap an hour after he wakes/eats. Do you use a pacifier? Around six weeks is generally when they are recommended to be introduced ( especially if you're nursing). 

Try and have a "nap" routine so that he understands it's nap time, along with reading tired cues (rubbing face, blanking out, etc). My dd has only just started napping on her own (she's 18 weeks now). Her first few months I did whatever it took to get her to sleep for atleast an hour, if not more, for each nap. Otherwise, I knew my nights would suck. I.e. rocking in glider, singing to sleep, stroking her head for relaxation, baby massage. It's so tiring on you but worth it in the long run.


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## Noelle610

Jade, what's her daytime schedule like? How long has this been going on for? So sorry to see you here!

Bun, I think Gidz gives good advice. I'd try shortening your wake times. The cat naps are normal at this age and while frustrating, it doesn't last I promise! You may see naps lengthen if you shorten his wake time as well, thus minimizing the possibility that he's overtired.

On CC/CIO and time limits - My unprofessional opinion is that they don't make sense. You do it or you don't and you have to stick with it. Utter consistency is key. If you have a baby that's crying excessively after the first few nights, you may want to consider that the method you're using doesn't suit his/her temperament.


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## Bun87

Gidz said:


> Bun87 said:
> 
> 
> At all other times he is awake, today has been a good day - sometimes he will stay awake for 6 hours solid. He's awake again now so will have some activity time then try and get him down after next feed. I love cuddling him while sleeps, I just wish he'd do it more - I hate seeing him tired! :-( x
> 
> Six hours is an awfully long time. I think he may be overly tired. I would aim to have him nap an hour after he wakes/eats. Do you use a pacifier? Around six weeks is generally when they are recommended to be introduced ( especially if you're nursing).
> 
> Try and have a "nap" routine so that he understands it's nap time, along with reading tired cues (rubbing face, blanking out, etc). My dd has only just started napping on her own (she's 18 weeks now). Her first few months I did whatever it took to get her to sleep for atleast an hour, if not more, for each nap. Otherwise, I knew my nights would suck. I.e. rocking in glider, singing to sleep, stroking her head for relaxation, baby massage. It's so tiring on you but worth it in the long run.Click to expand...

In the night, once he's down he stays asleep. He wakes for feeds then goes straight back to sleep. Do you think I'm missing his queues? When I see him rub his face or yawn we go straight up and I put him in the crib and rock him. He starts fussing and I never let it get to crying.

It's exhausting me too as I don't have a single minute to o anything all day ! :-( x


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## Gidz

Bun87 said:


> Gidz said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bun87 said:
> 
> 
> At all other times he is awake, today has been a good day - sometimes he will stay awake for 6 hours solid. He's awake again now so will have some activity time then try and get him down after next feed. I love cuddling him while sleeps, I just wish he'd do it more - I hate seeing him tired! :-( x
> 
> Six hours is an awfully long time. I think he may be overly tired. I would aim to have him nap an hour after he wakes/eats. Do you use a pacifier? Around six weeks is generally when they are recommended to be introduced ( especially if you're nursing).
> 
> Try and have a "nap" routine so that he understands it's nap time, along with reading tired cues (rubbing face, blanking out, etc). My dd has only just started napping on her own (she's 18 weeks now). Her first few months I did whatever it took to get her to sleep for atleast an hour, if not more, for each nap. Otherwise, I knew my nights would suck. I.e. rocking in glider, singing to sleep, stroking her head for relaxation, baby massage. It's so tiring on you but worth it in the long run.Click to expand...
> 
> In the night, once he's down he stays asleep. He wakes for feeds then goes straight back to sleep. Do you think I'm missing his queues? When I see him rub his face or yawn we go straight up and I put him in the crib and rock him. He starts fussing and I never let it get to crying.
> 
> It's exhausting me too as I don't have a single minute to o anything all day ! :-( xClick to expand...


This sounds exactly how my dd was. I thought because I saw her first yawn I hadn't waited too, too long but I didn't see how she was gazing at nothing beforehand. I really count on the clock, which a lot of people wouldn't agree with. Even if I don't see her yawn or gaze and its been x amount of time, I start with the nap routine. 9/10 she goes down without a fight. It's taken me a long time to figure her out, tho, and yea I don't have anytime to myself really but it's getting better. 

Another thing, I help to elongate her naps by going in and shushing her back to sleep at the 45 minute mark. She always wakes up 45 minutes after I put her down for a nap, so I started sitting by her around that time and shushing her back to sleep. I only had to do it a few times. Also, if she only naps for like 30 minutes and the shushing doesn't work, I'll pick her up and rock her back to sleep. At first, I was nervous she would become dependent on me to fall asleep at night, too, but someone here reassured me and told me that babies day/night sleep (circadian rhythm) is controlled by different parts of their brain.


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## seaweed eater

Good morning everyone! :wave:

Thanks to everyone who commented on the one nap idea. I think you're all right. I don't think he really wants one nap right now; he's just really excited to be awake. But the answer is probably not to cut his sleep.

Stephie, so glad to hear things are getting better and you had another good bedtime! :happydance: Certainly sounds like great progress! Regarding the bouncy chair, I wonder if there is a way you can listen to both your instinct and your arms...what if you tried keeping him in the bouncy chair for now but not bouncing it, and instead taking him out and swaying with him or soothing him however you would if he were in bed?



stephie_corin said:


> SE I guess it depends on Munchkin's temperament. If he is stubborn and wilful, you could be right and he may just learn to cry for 45 minutes. Have you done cc before? How long did he cry for? I recommended this blog post to Twister and you might find it useful:
> https://www.healthytippingpoint.com/2012/12/adventures-in-baby-sleep-training.html
> She had an upper limit of 60-90 mins for regular crying (with intermittent checks) but said she never got close to that. So having an upper limit can't be too uncommon.
> Good luck. You are a sensitive, intelligent woman. I'm sure whatever sleep training route you go will be the right one for your family xxx

You are too sweet! :blush: What we did before was kind of a CC/PUPD hybrid with 3 minute intervals, or longer if it seemed like he was winding down. I think we had 4 nights total where he cried for over an hour, once an hour and a half, and he was sick once too. And the night before last we had an awful MOTN party where he just really seemed to want to get up and play, and even though we weren't "sleep training" neither DH nor I would let that happen...and he basically screamed for an hour (while we tried to calm him), was sick, and then cried intermittently for another half hour while DH tried to put him down. So...based on that I think we'd be in for a lot of crying. I just don't really have the stomach for it. I can barely sleep myself afterward. But on the other hand, I know it's not good for him to be fighting sleep so much. Sometimes he is clearly so tired and just will not let himself sleep. So I feel like we need to do something.

Thanks for the link. I think I always just dismissed that approach because it didn't make sense to me to have limits. But on the other hand I'm clearly not willing to try it without limits, so even if it's not as quick to work, I'd try it if it were likely to help rather than hurt. :shrug:



bananaz said:


> My LO's pediatrician recommended a similar approach. He said to start with 15 minutes and then increase the time by 10-15 minutes each night, with a max of 45 minutes. I never tried it because it seemed crazy to me, but who knows!

That does seem like it would be pretty confusing. Maybe not for a baby for whom 15 minutes is enough? :shrug:

Gaia, hooray for sleep with no boob!! :happydance: I sometimes wonder whether I should try giving Munchkin a pacifier again, but then I worry (irrationally, I think) about weaning him off that! :haha: I do think it would make it easier to weaken the boob association, and as you said, transfers to the crib would be much easier. I'm sorry about the teething :( I hope the teeth in question are out soon!

Vikki, I'm sorry about your early mornings. I hope that if you can get him back to sleep with a bottle consistently then at least he'll be in the habit of sleeping later and you can work on getting rid of the bottle after that. Glad things are better overall :thumbup:

Hi Jade :hugs: I'm sorry about the separation anxiety, that sounds really hard. Mine does a less intense version of that -- sometimes he's just fine when I leave the room at bedtime and sometimes he screams. I don't know what you are willing to do in terms of sleep training but perhaps something like gradual withdrawal/camping out might be a good fit. That way she can gradually get used to you being away from her and hopefully realize that you're still nearby. Another thing I've read people do, which might be helpful now that she's old enough to understand you a little, is leave for less than a minute during the bedtime routine. Like say "I'm going out for a minute, but I'll be RIGHT BACK to give you a kiss!" and then do that. Just to practice. I can also imagine that would make bedtime stressful, though, if it's too much. Maybe even just peekaboo?

Regarding the early mornings, what are her naps like? Also, 6-7 sounds a little early to me as a bedtime for that age, although someone with a baby that age probably knows more. So between 6 and 7 there is no difference in when she wakes up?

Sunnie, I think the playing on the floor thing is great. I find often LO just wants me nearby and then is happy to play by himself, whereas if I were to sit on the other side of the room he'd be upset. I just have to be careful not to do anything too distracting like being on my phone or laptop :lol: 

NotNic, I totally do the same thing with lying down next to the bed and pretending to sleep :haha: I think you are exactly right about its being developmental, and about making things more active during the day. I've been trying to do more of that, especially in his last WT, and hopefully tire him out more by bedtime. I think it does help. I'm so glad you've had some nice late mornings :happydance: and that all your bad nights have been explained by teething! It's so reassuring when there's an explanation for it, even though it doesn't make it any less painful for them.

Hi Bun :hugs: I'm really sorry you are struggling. Your boy is so little, I don't think you should feel badly about things being a bit all over the place. That said, your WTs seem much too long for 6 weeks. What happens if you try to put him down much sooner? I'd try the approach Gidz suggests of going by the clock, just for a day or two to see how it goes. I would try 45-60 minutes.

Also, I think having a nap routine is wonderful, but it doesn't have to mean napping in the crib if that's not her preference. Many babies prefer to sleep in motion at that age. Totally normal and they outgrow it. If she's fighting naps in the crib, you could try a sling or wrap, swing, bouncy chair, or stroller. It's more important to make sure they are getting enough sleep than to insist on the crib on this age IMO. But I'm sure some experts disagree.



Noelle610 said:


> On CC/CIO and time limits - My unprofessional opinion is that they don't make sense. You do it or you don't and you have to stick with it. Utter consistency is key. If you have a baby that's crying excessively after the first few nights, you may want to consider that the method you're using doesn't suit his/her temperament.

Thanks Noelle. Makes sense. That's what I'm afraid of. :nope: I love your new avatar photo, BTW! Gorgeous. :flower:


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## seaweed eater

Holy moly, that really was a novel! :shock:


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## Noelle610

Thanks hun!!


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## Aimee4311

:shock: Josalyn just self-settled! :happydance: I'm still in shock! I was nursing her, and normally when she's done I have to rock her to sleep. Tonight when she was done nursing she rolled away from me then onto her tummy, shifted around a bit, and FELL ASLEEP!!!! :shock: 

This is the first time she's self-settled to sleep. She does it in the middle of the night between cycles at least a couple of times/ night but hasn't just fallen asleep herself since her uber-sleepy newborn days! 

:happydance:

On a side note, she learned to use a straw today. The first time she got a mouthful she spit water over half the table! :haha: Maybe learning that tired her out? Or inspired her to put herself to sleep! :)


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## seaweed eater

Awesome news, Aimee!!! :happydance:


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## jade1991

Hi girls.. another 5am wakeup here.

I have tried everything, she has a comfort teddy, I sometimes use white noise still, i do stay in the room with her and shhh pat and that usually works but sometimes takes over half an hour and i cant bend over her cot for that long my back kills lol. She woke once last night but settled herself without me going in, but still woke at 5am :( 

Seaweed I would be willing to sleep train definitely, what would you suggest? I have done CC before and it did work but this time doesnt seem to be working at all.

Noelle, i have to be honest her day schedule varies due to her childcare. When shes home with me she has usually a nap 9-11ish and then 3 til 4 ish. At nursery she only sleeps 12-2. When she has a second nap i find she has been waking a little later in the morning (630) however yesterday she had 2 naps and its obviously made nodifference. My OH wants to make her a bottle to give to her in her cot, but as soon as she sees me the separation anxiety begins. 

She is like it in the day too. When i walk out the room she has a meltdown, screaming choking the lot. I thought this phase would pass but its been about 3 months like this now!

We are going on holiday for a week today, so im even more wary because obviously her schedule is going to be completely different! 

Thanks for all the advice ladies, keeps me sane!!


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## stephie_corin

Gaia, there's only a week between our boys and they do sound so similar! Do you give him the soother overnight? I'm so glad you're having such good progress! Sorry about the teething though :( it's horrible to see them so miserable.

Vikki the early mornings are so tough!! Hugs.

Jade, Notnic has given some great advice. I hope you can sort things out soon. It must be hard going to work with no sleep!

Sunnie I'd love to borrow the book, thank you! Very sweet of you! Sorry you are struggling with naps too. How does Seren sleep at night now?

Notnic, thanks for the suggestion regarding feeding solids on waking. He's not eating much but it's a great pattern to be getting into.

Bun, I agree with the others. He's so little, he really needs very frequent naps. Although my son at that age would often stay awake for 2-3 hours! Some babies are hard to wind down. I really recommend happiest baby on the block. He has some great suggestions for calming young babies. He suggests swaddling, shhhhhing and this funny shaking movement where you lie the baby with their head slanted down on your lap - if you google you will find a video I'm sure. It worked so well for us.

Noelle, on reflection I agree with you in respect of the cc and having an upper limit. Cute avatar!

SE, how does he respond if you try to parent him to sleep? C has zero ability to fall asleep on his own and will just get worked up and either cranky or want to keep playing if I don't step in and nurse him or help to wind him down. I'm firmly of the view that we need to teach our babies to sleep by themselves but as Noelle said, CC/CIO may not work for every baby. Perhaps you could work on first of all helping him get a good night sleep. Rock him, nurse him, whatever it takes. Once you have a few days of a better routine, you could start implementing some slow, patient techniques to help him to sleep independently. I'm so sorry if you have already tried this!

Aimee you are my sleep hero :) I'm so happy for you! Josalyn is doing so well!!

Polaris, how was your night?? I hope Clara slept perfectly for you.

We had another pretty good night. The worst time for us seems to be 430-6. In this time I have to pick him up every 15-20 minutes to get him back to sleep. He's crying out so doesn't want to be awake. The darn second bottom tooth which I thought was through 10 days ago is still just below the surface. It's so close I can actually see it just under the gum. So this might be bothering him. I've also woken up with a very sore throat and we sleep face to face so he may just be feeling poorly... Although that doesn't explain the last few months. Lol.

I'm still struggling to put him down for his naps. I used to be able to transfer him to the bouncy chair really easily as when his eyes popped open I could bounce it a few times and he would go back to sleep. Now when I try to put him down he just cries. I need to just stick with it though as it won't get any easier to break him of his bounce addiction! Although SE you've got a good suggestion. I could actually bring the chair upstairs into our room so he gets used to sleeping here so it isn't such a big transition from living room/bouncy chair to bedroom/bed, and then not bouncing the chair when I put him in.

Anyway, I'm going to keep trying to put him down! Have a great day everyone xxx

Edit- in the words of eminem I've created a monster! He's sleeping like an angel in my arms but its like his world has ended as soon as I gently place him on the bed.


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## stephie_corin

Jade, sorry we cross posted! I don't have experience with a baby as old as your LO but I wonder if a consistent routine would help. Maybe on days she is with you you could do one nap also? I hope the others have some good advice for you x


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## VikkiD

I gave Daniel is afternoon bottle yesterday he took 5oz an this morning he slept till 5:50 I on the other hand was up at 4:15 waiting for him to wake. Will try keeping him on his third bottle for now to see how that helps.


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## jade1991

Hey steph, thanks for the reply, i have tried doing one nap with her shes pretty inconsistent sometimes she refuses a nap at 9 and waits til 11 then thats her one nap. It never makes a difference to her nightimes :(

I used to be so good with her naps/nightime sleep i was so switched on. I posted countless threads when she was 7/8 months old and then we had it nailed, now its gone completely to pot haha. X


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## Noelle610

Aimee, yay!!

Jade, I think a consistent schedule is a good place to start. Does she have to take one nap at daycare? If so, I think I'd push her into that schedule. Ideally, though, she'd still take 2 at this age if at all possible. I'd also set an out of crib time of 6am. If she wakes earlier, you treat it as a night waking. You don't want to get her in the habit of getting up so early and often that time will get earlier and earlier if re-enforced. If you leave her, will she be happily awake or get upset?


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## mellyboo

She didn't wake up last night! After a horrid couple of days I feel like a new person!


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## Noelle610

Melly that's wonderful news mama!


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## AngelUK

Noelle I love your new avvie! So cute :D


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## Noelle610

Thanks Angel! My DH took it while we were on a picnic :)


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## Aimee4311

When I have to rock Josalyn to sleep standing up I lay down when she's almost asleep and continue gentler movement in bed. Then when she's out I remove my arm from under her and get up. That way she's in bed when she falls fully asleep and there's not the sudden transition from up and warm to down in bed and cold(ish) to wake her up. 

That's just how I do it though!


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## NotNic

Jade - I've just realised how old your lo is. I'm sure Polaris or Noelle mentioned awhile ago that some babies have a sleep regression / another WW around a yr old. I was distraught when I heard because its would be timed to hit my first few weeks in work!

Stephie - can you reassure your lo with a firm hand on the tummy sitting in the chair? A few months ago there was a program on Channel 4 in the UK called Bedtime Live and one of the cases they treated was a baby that had to be rocked or jigged. They nicknamed the baby the motion addict! Their advice was to stop any type of motion stimulation, but to place a hand firmly (but not heavily) on your baby's tummy or back as reassurance. The parents were told not to rub or pat but just keep the hand constant until they were fully asleep. They then did gradual retreat until the baby had learnt to ss. The professionals opinion was that the movement stopped them learning to settle on their own. Might be worth a go.

Finlay had a brilliant sleeping day yesterday. A full 90mins in the morning and 40mins in the afternoon both at nursery!! I then had to wake him up at 6.30am this morning. I was nearly late for work!!


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## kettle28

I need to share!

may have found out why lo wouldn't go down in the evenings!! may.....don't want to invoke the curse!

he was getting tired signs about 50m after being awake in the morning so I was getting him down about 1.5hrs after waking. 

then he'd be showing tired signs again an hour after a 45-60m nap so I was trying for 1.5hrs again. this would go on until 10/11pm when he'd meltdown from overtiredness, he was having 30-45m naps rest of the day. 

was visiting a friend yesterday after his first nap which was 60mins, it was 2hrs when he started grizzling so I stood and swayed with him and his eyes closed on my shoulder!!!! he slept on my lap for 30mins. next awake time I kept him up for 2 hrs and he had to be rocked for 10mins but went down for an hour. 

next awake time was only 1.5hrs but, he woke, fed went back to sleep, woke and had teething gel, slept again and until from 6.30-3am only woke 3 times, twice to feed and once for teething!!!!!!

after that it was 2hrs, 1hr, 1 hr, etc, etc, until bottle 7.30am and then awake time 9am! 

but hey, can't complain!!!!

today have done the same thing, 

nap 1: 1.5hrs after wake up
nap 2: 2hrs after wake up
nap 3: 2hrs 20 after wake up
bedtime: 1 hr 15 after wake up

he just woke for rest of his feed he started before bedtime and went back off to sleep!

cross everything for me ladies - maybe the secret was he was undertired!!!!

:)x


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## Noelle610

Great news Kettle!


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## kettle28

Noelle610 said:


> Great news Kettle!

I can't believe the difference it's making!! Think he was locked in that undertired/overtired loop! 

Now if I can just keep his head away from those cot bars . . . . !!!! 
;)


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## Noelle610

kettle28 said:


> Noelle610 said:
> 
> 
> Great news Kettle!
> 
> I can't believe the difference it's making!! Think he was locked in that undertired/overtired loop!
> 
> Now if I can just keep his head away from those cot bars . . . . !!!!
> ;)Click to expand...

That happens!

Could you try breathable bumpers? We got some when having similar problems and it worked like a charm!


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## polaris

Hi everyone.
Wow this thread is moving fast at the moment, I've just read through the last few pages. Good to hear that some of our LOs are doing well in regard to sleep! 

Aimee - brilliant news that she's starting to self-settle! Even if she doesn't do it again for a while it shows that she's moving in that direction.

Kettle - that's great news that tweaking the schedule has made such a positive difference.

Mellyboo - yay for sleeping through!

Thanks to everyone for the advice about my older boy's horrible nap transition. I know it's totally OT for baby club! We do do quiet time if he's not having a nap which does help to get him through the day but it doesn't seem to stop him from getting progressively more over-tired over the course of a few days. I also limit his nap length if he is napping, which is hard to do in practice because it's very difficult to wake him once he's asleep and he's usually grumpy for an hour after I wake him which is no fun! I also try to get him to nap early in the day if he's napping. We're currently trying alternate days of napping and not napping. Honestly, I thought I would be devastated when he dropped his final nap but at this stage I just want it gone!! 

More positively, Clara is sleeping great! The last two nights she has only woken twice and resettled quickly each time after a feed. This evening hasn't been so good as she woke at 9.30 and didn't want to go back to sleep but I think maybe she was too hot as the weather here is really warm at the moment. Oh, and do you remember how I had decided to wake her at 7 a.m.? Well I woke her for two mornings and since then, she has woken spontaneously at exactly 6.45 a.m. each morning! How strange is that??


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## NotNic

Brilliant news about Clara. Sounds like you've reset her internal body clock. How are the days and naps going now? Sorry to hear that Thomas' transition is a bit tricky. Think this one is done no more nap transitions for him. :happydance: Hope things sort themselves out soon. Also I was thinking the other day how grateful I am that back in our NTNP days you didn't put me off babies with challenging newborn and sleep deprivation stories! :D


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## polaris

NotNic said:


> Brilliant news about Clara. Sounds like you've reset her internal body clock. How are the days and naps going now? Sorry to hear that Thomas' transition is a bit tricky. Think this one is done no more nap transitions for him. :happydance: Hope things sort themselves out soon. Also I was thinking the other day how grateful I am that back in our NTNP days you didn't put me off babies with challenging newborn and sleep deprivation stories! :D

The days are very good now, she's napping at 9.30 for about 1 to 1.5 hours, and at about 2 p.m. again for 1 to 1.5 hours. The only slight concern I have during the day is that I quite often have to wake her from naps to preserve the next nap/bedtime. But she's always in good form when she wakes up so I guess it's not a big issue waking her.

LOL at not putting you off babies! I have a good friend in real life who is currently pregnant with her first and I have to admit that I try not to mention Clara's sleeping patterns to her!


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## Noelle610

Polaris, that's wonderful!


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## aliss

P's doing a bit better but his lack of night feeds has now resulted in mastitis. Really, I can't win can I?


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## seaweed eater

Hooray! Glad for babies doing better!! :happydance: Kettle wave:), Polaris, Aliss...all great news!

Although so sorry about the mastitis, Aliss! Argh!!! :(

Kettle, does your LO wake up from being near the cot bars? Mine likes to stick his feet out and I was thinking of getting breathable bumpers, but so far it hasn't caused extra wakings or any kind of problem. Knock on wood. I see you there, BnB curse.


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## Aimee4311

Oh no, Aliss! I'm sorry, that really sucks!


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## stephie_corin

We had a truly terrible night, but I blame it on being sick. I've got a horrible sore throat and sore ears weirdly and I'm sure Culver has the same thing. He was crying and moaning all night. I gave paracetamol twice - at midnight and 4, as I was just too tired and run down myself. But I'm not counting this as a bad night as we have a reason.

Glad people are seeing good progress! Sorry about the mastitis Aliss. Ouch! 

I'm going to keep working on naps today and try get him out of my arms. 

X


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## stephie_corin

NotNic said:


> Stephie - can you reassure your lo with a firm hand on the tummy sitting in the chair? A few months ago there was a program on Channel 4 in the UK called Bedtime Live and one of the cases they treated was a baby that had to be rocked or jigged. They nicknamed the baby the motion addict! Their advice was to stop any type of motion stimulation, but to place a hand firmly (but not heavily) on your baby's tummy or back as reassurance. The parents were told not to rub or pat but just keep the hand constant until they were fully asleep. They then did gradual retreat until the baby had learnt to ss. The professionals opinion was that the movement stopped them learning to settle on their own. Might be worth a go.
> 
> Finlay had a brilliant sleeping day yesterday. A full 90mins in the morning and 40mins in the afternoon both at nursery!! I then had to wake him up at 6.30am this morning. I was nearly late for work!!

Thanks for this suggestion, I think it's a good one! Culver is certainly addicted to motion. I actually have an exercise ball and have bounced him for all of his naps for months now. Before that we would walk up and down with 'heavy steps' so he bounced in our arms! I've been rubbing his tummy but I will start trying to keep my hand still. I don't think this will work getting him to sleep (I'll still have to nurse him and hold him) but will work for his night wakings. Thanks so much! Glad you had some good naps :) xxx

Edit - I do sway with him on the bed when I'm trying to wind him down, or go in the rocker. Should I stop this all cold turkey or ease out of it? I'm not confident he will go to sleep with out some kind of wind down.


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## seaweed eater

stephie_corin said:


> SE, how does he respond if you try to parent him to sleep? C has zero ability to fall asleep on his own and will just get worked up and either cranky or want to keep playing if I don't step in and nurse him or help to wind him down. I'm firmly of the view that we need to teach our babies to sleep by themselves but as Noelle said, CC/CIO may not work for every baby. Perhaps you could work on first of all helping him get a good night sleep. Rock him, nurse him, whatever it takes. Once you have a few days of a better routine, you could start implementing some slow, patient techniques to help him to sleep independently. I'm so sorry if you have already tried this!

Thanks for this :hugs: I did manage to get him to go down awake but relaxed by changing things gradually over several weeks, but then we hit a wall with that. Basically as things stand he needs to fall asleep and stop rooting and then I can wake him up as I put him in the crib. I haven't had success with taking him off while he's awake or even putting him down when he's fallen asleep for a moment but is still rooting. NCSS gentle removal doesn't seem to have helped much -- I think it has just trained him to unlatch sooner but he still roots when I pull out the nipple if he's not ready to stop comfort sucking. The pressure on the chin thing just makes him really mad and then I have to soothe him again, so I don't do that. He has a security blanket but he doesn't suck on it, and if I suggest it to him as something to suck on then he gets mad and throws it away. I would just love to use a gentle and slow approach, but I guess I'm not sure what else to try! But I am more than open to any suggestions!!

I don't know whether my bouncy chair suggestion will help at all. If the only issue is bouncing vs. not bouncing, then it may not. I suggested it because I was really surprised how difficult it was for Munchkin to move from his bassinet to his crib in the exact same location. I would never have guessed that he had any particular attachment to the way his bassinet looked or felt, but apparently he did. So this way you could just rule out that C has a similar thing with his bouncy chair (in addition to the bouncing).

As for whether to stop cold turkey or gradually...I think it depends on how things go and how much complaining you are willing to endure! Personally I think I would try cold turkey first, with the firm hand on the belly, because sometimes those things surprise you and just work right away. But if he protests more than you're willing to put up with, you could retreat to a more gradual approach.

Hope everyone is having a good night :hugs:


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## stephie_corin

SE if you put him down asleep, how does that affect the rest of his night sleep? I obviously don't want you to go backwards when you've made progress but I'm just curious. I'm not in any way related to Dr Sears (lol) but his baby book has a whole section on nighttime parenting that I was rereading last night. He's very pro parents helping their children to sleep and thinks the ability to fall asleep unaided develops later for some children. He stresses the importance of having different ways for your baby to fall asleep and that this will help night time sleep. This is a big one for me as I tend to respond the same way each time and daddy has not been that involved.

For me personally, I'm going to continue to help C to sleep for as long as he needs me but I need to work on reducing the aids that he needs and work on alternative ways to soothe him (like the hand on the belly). My goal is for him to learn to self settle but in his own time (and some encouragement from me). Just cutting down on rocking and bouncing has made an immediate improvement to his sleep.

I'm rambling, sorry. I know Munchkin and Culver are two completely different babies but I'm just trying to get an idea of how he would sleep if you put him down asleep in his cot?

I'm on nap 1 and left the chair downstairs accidentally. He's almost asleep in my arms so I will have to try transfer him to the bed again. I did no rocking or swaying and he got hysterical but calmed down pretty quickly! Yay!

Edit - I also appreciate that not working at the moment gives me a luxury that you don't have - you need sleep ASAP to function in the real, adult world! X


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## VikkiD

Well Daniel is now sleeping through properly no going into him to resettle him but he wakes so early 4:50 today earliest being 4:30 he did let me have a lie in yesterday till 5:50 I know I should be grateful for him now sleeping but can't he just sleep till 6 please??


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## stephie_corin

So for nap 1 it went like this: I held C while he cried hysterically. I shhhhed him and patted his back. He calmed down and latched on, fed and then I held him for a few moments. With trepidation I placed him on the bed. His eyes popped open - I placed my hand on his tummy and he blinked and then went to sleep! No rocking, no bouncing, no bouncy chair! 

Vikki, I know that feeling so well. I'm so sorry he is getting up so early. Do you remember when a lie in used to be 10 or even (gasp) noon? I hope he starts sleeping later for you soon x


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## VikkiD

stephie_corin said:


> So for nap 1 it went like this: I held C while he cried hysterically. I shhhhed him and patted his back. He calmed down and latched on, fed and then I held him for a few moments. With trepidation I placed him on the bed. His eyes popped open - I placed my hand on his tummy and he blinked and then went to sleep! No rocking, no bouncing, no bouncy chair!
> 
> Vikki, I know that feeling so well. I'm so sorry he is getting up so early. Do you remember when a lie in used to be 10 or even (gasp) noon? I hope he starts sleeping later for you soon x

Oh I know I can't remember the last time I had a lie in 7am use to be a luxury now it's gone to 6am lol


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## seaweed eater

Well, when we stopped nursing to sleep, it actually improved his sleep dramatically. I haven't put him down asleep after nursing in months, so I don't know how that would be, but the way we do it now, it's really variable. Sometimes he's up twice (which I think is the best I can hope for) and sometimes it's 5+. Usually ~3 recently, and his nights are often only 9-10 hours, so that's not great. Also, the times he wakes up are not regular. After a couple nights of sleep training he was up 1(!)-2x almost every night at very regular times. So I think it does affect his sleep. But things could also be a lot worse. His naps have remained much much better than before (knock on wood), which of course helps his nights.

I haven't read Sears' book, but I do think it is important, because of object permanence, not to put them down asleep at this age. But I agree that it would probably help even if we had a larger set of techniques that worked to help him sleep. Now we have me nursing, DH walking (only sometimes), at daycare I think they rock him, and of course the car and the stroller. Personally, I haven't ever managed to get him to sleep without nursing. He gets really mad when I hold him and don't nurse him, or when I touch him in his crib unless he's already really close to being asleep. That rules out a lot. When I sit next to his crib and shh, sometimes it calms his crying but it doesn't really help him sleep.

I know from daycare that there are babies who just go to sleep when they're tired, and clearly he's not one of those, but I wish it were easier for him, especially since he's so distractible and interested in everything and finds it hard to wind down for that reason already.


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## seaweed eater

Ahh Stephie just saw your update! So pleased!! Sometimes those simple things just work shockingly well! :happydance:

Vikki, glad to hear about the progress. I hope you get more 5:50 mornings and then gradually 6. It is hard to wake up so early :hugs:


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## stephie_corin

SE I know you may not know the answer to this but what happened between the sleep training and now? Is there anything that you can point to that's made his sleep bad again? Do you think it's just teething? It sounds like you did have amazing results with the sleep training before so maybe you just need to bite the bullet and do it again. It really does sound like you've tried and thought about everything!

I wish I could put C down awake. It's a work in progress for us. I agree, if you've managed to reach that point it would be silly to go back to helping him right to the point of sleep. I just thought it might help with his erratic bedtimes - do whatever it takes to get him down asleep until he settles better into a routine. I know with C if I didn't help him to the point of sleep he would often quite happily get a second wind and push through playing for an hour or two.

Good luck SE! X


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## polaris

Stephie, that's brilliant news about Cully settling for his nap on the bed with no rocking! Yay! Well done!

Urrgh, sorry about the mastitis Aliss, hope you've caught it early and it clears quickly.

We had another fairly good night, three short wakings. We're going away for the long weekend tomorrow though so I'm sure that will totally mess up her sleep just as she's sleeping a bit better!


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## kettle28

seaweed eater said:


> Hooray! Glad for babies doing better!! :happydance: Kettle wave:), Polaris, Aliss...all great news!
> 
> Although so sorry about the mastitis, Aliss! Argh!!! :(
> 
> Kettle, does your LO wake up from being near the cot bars? Mine likes to stick his feet out and I was thinking of getting breathable bumpers, but so far it hasn't caused extra wakings or any kind of problem. Knock on wood. I see you there, BnB curse.

Yeh, he bangs his head! Has a bit of an issue with seeing me in the night though or I would get those breathable air wrap jobs :) 

Invoked the curse good and proper! Either that or lo's snottiness is a cold coming, longest sleep 1.5hrs, woke 17 times!!!! Sometimes only 16-20mins apart!!

But, at all times was tired and wanted to sleep, and never awake more than 20odd mins so great improvement :)


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## stephie_corin

Kettle, 4.5-5.5 were my absolute darkest days (nights!) with the worst night wakings. I'm so sorry you are going through it!! Hang in there.

Polaris! So happy for you!!! Yay for sleep :) 

Good luck tonight everyone!


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## Noelle610

stephie_corin said:


> Kettle, 4.5-5.5 were my absolute darkest days (nights!) with the worst night wakings. I'm so sorry you are going through it!! Hang in there.

Me too!


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## seaweed eater

Me three. So sorry, Kettle. 17 times is no joke. I hope it passes quickly :hugs:

Stephie, I know -- I feel a bit stuck to be honest. I think the bedtime thing probably would have happened even if we'd continued, because it seems developmental. The increased NWs and early waking are probably a combination of not SS and bad habits reintroduced due to teething. We probably will try some sort of sleep training the next time it seems like things are really bad, but he will have to adapt to it better than last time or we'll stop again. I'm not willing to sustain that amount of crying if there's an alternative involving far less (we're currently dealing with the bedtime issue by not starting the routine until he seems really tired, which seems to work for now). Most days he's cheerful and doesn't seem sleep-deprived, even though he's getting significantly less sleep than I think he would have ideally. But as long as he seems ok, I'd much rather deal with more and irregular wakings, to a point, than with making him (and DH and me too) so upset every night.

What's really confusing is that both Sears and Weissbluth/Ferber seem to believe that, while all methods work for most babies, only their method works for persistent/slow to adapt/intense babies. :shrug: It really seems like there are no good options. Who knows, maybe we will try training again and it will just work this time.


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## stephie_corin

Big huge hugs to you SE. When they are 30 and we are old ladies I'm sure we won't be worrying about their sleep. I wished you lived closer and we could leave the daddies on night duty and go do something wild like see a movie and not feel so stressed about how little sleep our boys are getting.

I think having a flexible bed time isn't a bad idea at all. Our bedtime changes depending on naps and how exciting the day was. I think it's more important to have a consistent wakeup time in the morning. Good luck with tonight :)

X


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## Noelle610

seaweed eater said:


> What's really confusing is that both Sears and Weissbluth/Ferber seem to believe that, while all methods work for most babies, only their method works for persistent/slow to adapt/intense babies. :shrug: It really seems like there are no good options. Who knows, maybe we will try training again and it will just work this time.

LOL I know! This is confusing. 

I don't want to give you more reading, but "Good Night Sleep Tight" by Kim West aka the Sleep Lady has a more middle-of-the road approach.


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## seaweed eater

Thank you Stephie <3 I wish that too, that would be really fun! I think our boys will be just fine in the long run. Munchkin takes after me in many ways, and some of these same traits that are making sleep challenging for him have served me really well in my life. He's such a fun baby and I wouldn't want him to be any different. It's just getting through this sleep stuff that's hard. And it's much easier to see the bright side of it all after a good night last night! :haha:

Thanks Noelle, is that the same Sleep Lady who recommends a kind of gradual withdrawal training method? That's exactly what I was thinking of trying next time we find ourselves needing something! I haven't read her book obviously but I've read about the method online.


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## Noelle610

seaweed eater said:


> Thanks Noelle, is that the same Sleep Lady who recommends a kind of gradual withdrawal training method? That's exactly what I was thinking of trying next time we find ourselves needing something! I haven't read her book obviously but I've read about the method online.

That's her!


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## gaiagirl

Aliss - I am sorry about the mastitis! Of course there has to always be a price to pay for success it seems :dohh:. Glad about the night wakings though.

Stephie - Nice progress! Doesnt it feel awesome when they impress us with something like that?! I agree with you about learning emotional regulation/self soothing at different rates. It really is a milestone that comes with time, like walking/talking/eating/etc. It really is a hard one to wait out sometimes though!

SE - Not sure what to suggest, I know you have likely thought of everything since I know how much time and energy you put into it...I think you are doing the right thing with bedtime, and it sounds like at least you arent battling every evening so thats a plus!

AFM - He is still taking the soother which is a bit mind boggling but I will take it! It means he can be rocked to sleep (although this is slow and I am lazy) so I usually nurse until hes drowsy and swap out the soother for boob :haha:. It makes crib transfers WAYYYYYYYYYY easier so he is again back in the crib for naps and evening. I really hope that curse isnt real because I cannot handle that changing again right now! LOL. 

Major win today: He woke only 20 min into a nap clearly not rested, all I had to do was put the soother back in and hold my hand on his shoulder and he drifted right back off...He has not done anything close to this for about 14 weeks. :happydance::happydance::happydance: May not last but it IS progress!

Teeth-wise he is getting like 4 right now and is a bit cranky but doing pretty well. He has taken to yelling a lot these days, not crying/screaming but YELLING to express himself which is loud but pretty funny...


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## kettle28

Ha ha! Baby shouting!! They are so intense when they do that!! 

Longer awake times definitely helping lo with bedtime, teeth are bugging him something rotten, spent 15m chewing my finger earlier :( 

Only woken 4 times since 6.30, feed x2 and dummy x 2 :)


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## Aimee4311

Kettle- Sorry it was such a rough night last night! I'm glad tonight is already better! 

Seaweed- good luck! Do you have a date in mind when y'all will start sleep training again? 

Polaris- Yay for a good nap! :happydance:

So Josalyn hasn't self-settled again, but I can tell she's trying! She keeps rolling over onto her belly and shifting around a for a couple of minutes, then she starts grumbling while still shifting around like she can't get comfortable. Then she'll start crying, so I pick her up and rock her a bit and lay her back onto her belly. 

Last night I only had to pick her up and put her back down once and then she talked herself to sleep. Tonight I tried several times and decided when it had been 30 minutes to just rock her to sleep then lay her down. 

She's getting a lot easier to settle for her naps and her night sleep! (Other than tonight, but we're trying something new!) She's going down with less and less help from me and we're seeing real progress! 
(Please no BnB curse, please no!) :haha:


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## seaweed eater

Gaia, that's great!! :happydance: Sounds like things are going much better with the soother! I think the yelling is pretty cute :)
And thanks :hugs: I'm thinking as long as we're WIO we might as well try to avoid bedtime battles. We'll see how long it lasts.

Kettle, sounds like progress :thumbup: does LO have any teeth yet? And do you give anything for pain relief?

Aimee, hooray!! :happydance: Sounds like you are doing just the right things to challenge her and she is responding wonderfully! She is going to be a self-settler and a great sleeper before you know it.
We don't have a date in mind for starting sleep training again, no. Just when I feel sufficiently fed up! :shrug: It would help if the second tooth were through, but I've given up waiting for that.


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## stephie_corin

It sounds like everyone had a good night and some progress! I'm so happy for you all! Hopefully the rest of our sleep deprived pals have done as well.

We had a pretty good night too! He had a funny awake period for about 45 minutes at 3am but we only had wakeups at 10pm, 1am, 3am and 430-5isb! This is an amazing night for us! He also went down well for his nap but I kicked something over on the floor (doh) and woke him so he is now asleep in my arms.

Gaia, 4 teeth! Poor little man!

Kettle, 4 times is a huge improvement on 17! I bet you feel great!!

Aimee you are doing so well. 30 mins is also my upper limit at night. I rocked C last night too when he was slapping his hand against his leg and singing at 345am!

SE, yay for a great night! I agree, I don't want to change C either! I'm sure all of our little night monkeys are having trouble sleeping because they are so interested in the world around them!

As an aside, I was thinking about object permanence last night at 3am and I thought that surely if a baby is always rocked/nursed to sleep and always wakes up in his cot, then it's something they would expect? You know how we all do our sequencing for bed time (bath + massage + books = bed time) so why can't milk/rocking + sleep = cot? I don't think I buy the 'fall asleep in the living room, wake up in the garden' analogy because if I always fell asleep in the living room and woke up in the garden then it wouldn't be a surprise? 

Am I missing something?? Not trying to be argumentative, I'm genuinely very interested in this. 

Have a great day xxx


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## VikkiD

Lo slept through till 5.30 why do I still feel knackered lol.


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## gaiagirl

Stephie I suspect it's more just the association of how they fall asleep. They rouse between cycles, look around and think "Oh, this isn't how I go to sleep, I go to sleep with physical contact and motion and nursing etc etc" and it's a maturity milestone to get to the point where they can overcome that and relax back into sleep on their own.

I agree, my LO is sooooooo curious and interested in everything and SO physical and easily bored...sleep is just not high on his agenda :) Wouldn't change him for the world!


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## stephie_corin

Thanks Gaia, it's really fascinating. I'd love to have a greater understanding of Cully's sleep, and baby sleep in general.

We had a truly bad night. I couldn't let him out of my arms and he would wake crying every 30 mins even in my arms. At one point he was chewing on my fingers so not sure if its teething. I have him paracetamol but it didn't make a difference. I'm still sick and I'm wondering if he has the same thing as me. I know I felt rubbish last night. 

Although I'm also wondering if he had too much day sleep. He took two much longer then normal naps - 1 hour 15 in the morning and 1 hour 40 in the afternoon. I was really pleased he took such long naps but I wonder if it affected his night sleep? He went to bed at 645 and up at 550am this morning.

I hope everyone had better nights than us!


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## Aimee4311

Aww, poor boy! Sounds like a rough night, Stephie! I hope he's not sick! 

So far ours is ok. She needed me to rock her to sleep. I kept giving her the opportunity to settle herself but she wasn't having it! She kept turning into her side and raising her top leg and arm into the air then getting frustrated! :haha: Weirdo! 

I'm not stressing it though. I know now that she can self settle and it will happen more often in time!


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## stephie_corin

Thanks Aimee... He seems completely fine this morning... Little monkey!!!! I hope you have a great night x

Edit- does anyone think I should shorten his naps or should I just let him sleep as long as he wants? The naps didn't seem overly long to me, but much longer than he usually takes.


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## Aimee4311

Josalyn normally gets 3 hours +/- of nap time per day and normally sleeps 11-12 hours at night (that includes the short wake ups to nurse). I don't know the recommendations, this is just how her naps/sleep has worked themselves out! I always just let her sleep and enjoy any free time I get! :)


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## stephie_corin

Thanks Aimee :) I was worried the longer naps caused his horrible sleep last night but I also suspect it's just teething... Or wind (we had some err .... strange rumblings last night!). I think Josalyn is spot on with her sleep, clever girl!! X


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## gaiagirl

I think his naps seem great! I wouldn't mess with them :)

We had a super restless night, waking every 1-2 hours and flailing about. He started grinding his top and bottom teeth together this morning, which frankly was an annoying sound to wake up to. Lol.

A bit more movement on the top teeth though so hopefully we are close! Good grief he is the worlds slowest teether.


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## Noelle610

jade1991 said:


> A bit more movement on the top teeth though so hopefully we are close! Good grief he is the worlds slowest teether.

My DD was/is like this too. They take forever :dohh:


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## anti

I've been MIA for ages now! We were finally getting somewhere with night times then she got tonsillitis and that messed everything up, then some more teeth, then a holiday to South Africa and then gastro enteritis so everything has been mayhem for us for a few weeks now. Think we are starting to settle back into things at home now. She's still waking at night and taking a bottle. Gonna wait another week before tackling that I think.


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## NotNic

Gaia he's ahead of my Finlay. Number 7 has just come through but he was past the 7mth point before any arrive. I hear its a sign of strong gums. x


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## seaweed eater

Stephie, personally I would wake if he'd slept for over 2 hours or was still asleep too close to bedtime, but it doesn't sound like either of those were the case.

You have a fair point regarding object permanence. My understanding is the same as Gaia's. That it's not just that they go "Huh?!" but also, "Hey, where's that nipple that was in my mouth that helped me go to sleep before? I want that back!" whereas a baby without object permanence would just go, hmm, whatever, and try to sleep. :p

I have my own question about object permanence. I've never understood why people say you shouldn't sleep train until 6 months because that's when they learn that you can come back for them, or something like that. Surely what they actually learn at that age is that you could leave them and NOT come back? Isn't that why object permanence is related to separation anxiety? :shrug: I mean I can think of other reasons not to sleep train until 6 months, but that one has never made sense to me.

Are there fast teethers?! People keep telling me they can see Munchkin's second tooth. I'm not getting excited about it until it's through. 19 days now since the first one!


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## gaiagirl

Yes, SE I have heard of these elusive babies for whom the pair just pop through overnight...not for us! :haha:


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## Aimee4311

Josalyn was a fast teether! One day one was just there and I could see the second which came through two days later. But, it's taken forever for them to get all the way up...going on two months now and I still don't think they're all the way out!


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## stephie_corin

Teething = worst thing ever...!!! C didn't sleep more than half an hour last night before moaning and crying. I gave him paracetamol and it did squat so I'm going to try iboprufen tonight. Another slow tether here, only 1 tooth but the second is visible. No wonder his naps have been long these last two days, poor baby is exhausted. 

SE, I always assumed no sleep training before 6 months had to do with the belief that after 6 months they no longer need night feeds? (Not saying I agree with that but I've heard lots of people say it).


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## gaiagirl

Stephie I think that is one of the other reasons for the recommendation.

Soooooo crazy tonight. He was nuts, clearly in pain and getting overtired but couldnt nurse without biting to calm down. Finally the baby advil kicked in and got him to settle but wow...could be a rough night.

Question I am hoping someone here might be able to answer (Noelle?):
When do babies sleep cycles lengthen and is it sudden or gradual. Lately we have had several 1 hour naps, whereas its always been either 40, 80, 120 min...he still has the 40 min ones too but quite a few 60min lately?! He doesn't wake up upset as he usually would if he was woken by a noise or something...interesting!


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## stephie_corin

Gaia sounds like our boys are going through the same thing! I don't know the answer to your question but we are suddenly getting hour long naps too... ?

Good luck for tonight! X


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## VikkiD

Made the mistake of listening to hubby and putting lo to bed later at 7:30 thinking might stop the 5am wake up Sunday morning 4:50 managed to get him back down after a feed till 6.30. Last night he woke every couple of hours I eventually fed him at 5 an just woke him at 7 so tonight I think we will be going back to a earlier bedtime I might even try get him in bed for 6:30


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## Noelle610

gaiagirl said:


> Question I am hoping someone here might be able to answer (Noelle?):
> When do babies sleep cycles lengthen and is it sudden or gradual. Lately we have had several 1 hour naps, whereas its always been either 40, 80, 120 min...he still has the 40 min ones too but quite a few 60min lately?! He doesn't wake up upset as he usually would if he was woken by a noise or something...interesting!

It takes awhile - years - for their sleep cycles to lengthen. If naps are getting longer, it's more likely that he's transitioning/self-soothing better during the day. The longer sleep is likely yielding more quality rest, hence the happy wakings. 

This is an article I've come across a few times on the way babies sleep and it's very interesting!

https://www.parentingscience.com/baby-sleep-patterns.html

(Caveat - I like it for the science and anthropological perspectives, but obviously I don't agree with some of the sleep training stuff)


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## gaiagirl

I've read that a few times, lol. Love how evidence based it is, I also love reading about sleep across different cultures.

I'm thinking maybe the extra 20 min is because of the soother possibly...stretching out wakeup a little. He's always been a happy waker, unless he's woken prematurely by noise or something. But maybe he's quiet a bit longer with the soother in! Lol


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## stephie_corin

I'm just feeling so lost at the moment. I really hope this is teething... it's like I can't make his routine work. This last three days he has taken longer naps and then has been fighting bedtime for over an hour. I'm sure it's me holding him that is lengthening his naps and if I put him straight down he would go back to 30-45 minute naps. Maybe that is his natural napping pattern and I should just respect it?

Once I finally got him to sleep, he was up again and took ages to settle. I gave him iboprufen and I'm just praying it has some effect. If it doesn't, it means he really has become the worlds worst sleeper! Last night he was up at least twice an hour and would only go back to sleep if I rocked him. 

Todays naps were just over one hour each. It doesn't sound like too much but maybe it is. 

I'm so tired and feeling sick and I just wish he would sleep! 

I'm just ranting - no response needed. I would scream out loud to get it out but then I'd wake him up... Ha!

Have a great night everyone!xxx


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## NotNic

Stephie he's transitioning to longer naps and it does take a while for them to get through the transition. Longer naps are a good thing! And if he's teething too then its no wonder you're a bit unsettled. What time is morning wake up and bedtime now? Xx


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## seaweed eater

:hugs: Sorry you are struggling at bedtime, Stephie. I agree with NN, I think your naps sound good. C's bedtime is pretty early IIRC? I hope the ibuprofen helped - did things get better? Think whatever else is going on you can be pretty sure his mouth is bothering him, so don't be too hard on yourself. :hugs: :hugs:


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## gaiagirl

Stephie the teeth wreak HAVOC, seriously. This is not permanent, it will pass I promise :)

F now has four openings up top, so at least we are making progress. Poor baby.


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## stephie_corin

Thanks everyone. It is teething I'm sure, he slept three hours straight after the ibuprofen.

He's up at 5.30-6 and naps at 845/9 and 12.45/1 for an hour each (we had a few freakishly long 1.45 naps but I think they are the exception). I aim for bedtime at 6. I think he is ready for a 7 pm bedtime but if I do that, it means 6 hours between breastfeeds before bed! He's still not taking many solids but I offer on each wakeup. For the last week he has fallen asleep at 6 while nursing then woken up for an hour after. 

Gaia, four teeth openings?? Wow, poor F must be so sore. I hope they pop down soon.

Sorry for the meltdown last night! And thanks so much for all of the support. You girls are all wonderful xxx:hugs:


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## VikkiD

Why do men not understand that a baby gets overtired?
I am p'd off today after another night of no sleep!
OH didnt go the gym last night so we went to the park u stupidly forgot my phone and lost track of time so by the time we got home it was 6:50 by the time lo was in bed it was 7:20 and it took him ages go sleep as I think he was overtired everytime I say this to OH he just thinks I am mad an the more tired lo is the longer he will sleep. Well guess who's been up every hour last night yes me not him I am so mad at him today an he's still sleeping now so tonight I will be shoving him out the door to the gym so I can put lo to bed in peace.
Sorry for the rant. Xx


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## stephie_corin

Oh no! I hope Daniel's sleep is better tonight. You poor thing!!! It's funny isn't it - I would assume (before i had a baby) that a really tired baby would sleep, well... like a baby! But they just don't. I hope OH realises now how important bed time is! X


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## Shadowy Lady

hi guys! I haven't posted here forever but just wanted to say hang in there!! We had a few up and down weeks at 6 months but since 6 months 3 weeks we have had sttn pretty much 98% of the time. There was a time I was so desperate (around 5 months I think) I thought I would never sleep again and my anxiety was killing me. I was also on sleep meds and having a fear of medication was making things worse for me.

I stopped taking sleep meds (though I was on a very low dose, 0.25mg) all together 2 weeks ago as it seems that Sofia is now very consistent with sleeping. After a rough week of meds withdrawal and fear of not sleeping, I'm back to sttn myself lmao :D 

Just wanted to say there's light at the end of the tunnel. This thread and the sweet ladies posting in it helped me a lot during my sleepless time and I wanted to give back :)


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## gaiagirl

Thanks Shadowy! I dont think we will have sttn here for a long time, but things have settled down since 4/5 months even despite the major teeth movement. So all I can hope for is that naps lengthen, evenings improve a bit over time and he continues to have very quick night wakings :)

I could live with all of that for quite awhile!


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## stephie_corin

Thanks Shadowy. I'm so glad things are going well with you! I'm with you Gaia, I think sleeping through the night is a long way off for us. I'll be happy if I can soothe him easier at night (not picking him up, I'm hoping a cuddle or lying down nursing will eventually soothe him).

Today when he woke after his first nap (40 mins) I didn't help him back to sleep but I did for his second nap (1 hour 15)... It only took 30 minutes to get him down tonight and he has been asleep ever since ! (2.5 hours!!) I don't know if its progress or just coincidence and he isn't teething tonight.

Anyway, wishing you all a really good night. X


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## stephie_corin

So last night was very weird. He slept three hours straight, waking just before 10pm. He took an hour to settle and then slept 11-1am and was then awake until 330. I could not get him to sleep. He was quite happy to sit up and look around but cried the minute I tried to rock, nurse or soothe him back to sleep. Then he woke again at 4 and 5 and then up at 6am. He was quite grumpy this morning and its now almost 9 am and he is still not asleep for his first nap.

I think this might be a developmental thing as he's just learnt to go from lying on his tummy to a sitting position. Although when I said this to DH this morning he said that I've been saying this for months (and teething is our other favourite excuse).

I had a bad mummy moment last night. I was just so frustrated and tired and spoke sharply to Cully.

I have two questions:
1) to those who bed share, how do you dress LO? Part of the night he is in his cot attached to the bed and part he is in my arms. He's in a sleeping bag (1 tog) and a long sleeved sleep suit. Obviously in my arms is a lot warmer.
2) what is your upper limit for giving pain relief (for example, you'll only give it three consecutive nights). I'm thinking of setting a benchmark of 2 nights maximum per week (and obviously only if he is crying in pain) and the rest of the week just put up with bad sleep. I'm slightly concerned about the toxic effect of using pain relief over a prolonged period.

Many thanks as always xxx


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## Aimee4311

Sorry it was such a hard night, Stephie! 

I only have Josalyn in a short sleeved onesie and we both stay plenty warm! 

I don't have an answer about the pain medicine as I've not given any to Josalyn yet.


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## Boo44

Hi girls long time no post! 

Jack has started sitting up in his sleep! He did it twice last night. He can't get down so has to be laid down by us but then immediately sleeps again. It's so strange! Have any of you got advice re that?

Also as he's now at 3 different child cares during the week I have lost control of his naps :) He still needs 2 as his morning wake up is tending to be around 6.30 so by 10am he's tired. Thing is they often report that he had like 2 45min naps. At home he would have much longer naps. And he's often overtired which I think is contributing to early wake ups. I don't think there is much I can do about this? If he would have one nap days I think they would find it easier but I can't see him getting to lunch time! Any advice girls?

Also he's getting 2 pre molars now and has started pulling to standing and cruising so its all going on!!

Hope you're all well xx


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## VikkiD

I put lo to bed earlier last night he was asleep at 6;45 we did have a wake up at 12.15 for about 20 mins and he woke again at 5:30 but was still tired so I lay him back down after a little cuddle and he then woke after 7am so much better


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## Noelle610

Boo44 said:


> Hi girls long time no post!
> 
> Jack has started sitting up in his sleep! He did it twice last night. He can't get down so has to be laid down by us but then immediately sleeps again. It's so strange! Have any of you got advice re that?
> 
> Also as he's now at 3 different child cares during the week I have lost control of his naps :) He still needs 2 as his morning wake up is tending to be around 6.30 so by 10am he's tired. Thing is they often report that he had like 2 45min naps. At home he would have much longer naps. And he's often overtired which I think is contributing to early wake ups. I don't think there is much I can do about this? If he would have one nap days I think they would find it easier but I can't see him getting to lunch time! Any advice girls?
> 
> Also he's getting 2 pre molars now and has started pulling to standing and cruising so its all going on!!
> 
> Hope you're all well xx

Hey hun! Unfortunately my advice on both front is "wait it out".

With the sitting up, he'll figure that out. If you're comfortable letting him fuss a bit, you can let him figure out how to lay down. Can it do it during the daytime? If not, it might be good to work with him on it.

With the naps, I think they'll lengthen as he gets used to the new routine. This is pretty common when babies go through a schedule change. Does he have a comfort object that you could send with him to his care givers? That may help.


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## mellyboo

Well I haven't wanted to post in here seems like every time I do I get the BNB curse and she does worse again.. But lately were only up 1-2 time's a night.. I should add that the 2nd time some time's is only at 7am but if i treat it like a " Night time" waking she goes back to bed till 830 LOL!!... so i shouldn't really count it but I do.. ahahah!!


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## Boo44

Thanks noelle! He's a funny creature in that when he's on his back during the day, he acts like he's stuck! Even though I know he is capable of rolling if he wanted. So it works good for nappy changes etc. but it means he never wants to be on his back when he's awake so I'd have a hard time teaching him to learn to lie from sitting! 

Funny thing is he has always slept on his back all night long. Occasionally on his side now. So the 'inability' to roll works fine there as well

What I want to know is how he gets to sitting up in the night! He must roll onto his tummy, because he is always on his tummy and crawling around etc and sitting. I've just never ever seen him get to his tummy from his back. Wish I had a video monitor lol

Is Charlie still on 2 naps? Think I'll just wait it out like you say, and let his 2 naps (hopefully) get gradually longer as he settles down. It's only been 2 wks so far. He has a 'bun-bun' comforter and two dummies (one in mouth one in hand!) so he's fine there xx


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## mellyboo

Boo44 said:


> Thanks noelle! He's a funny creature in that when he's on his back during the day, he acts like he's stuck! Even though I know he is capable of rolling if he wanted. So it works good for nappy changes etc. but it means he never wants to be on his back when he's awake so I'd have a hard time teaching him to learn to lie from sitting!
> 
> Funny thing is he has always slept on his back all night long. Occasionally on his side now. So the 'inability' to roll works fine there as well
> 
> What I want to know is how he gets to sitting up in the night! He must roll onto his tummy, because he is always on his tummy and crawling around etc and sitting. I've just never ever seen him get to his tummy from his back. Wish I had a video monitor lol
> 
> Is Charlie still on 2 naps? Think I'll just wait it out like you say, and let his 2 naps (hopefully) get gradually longer as he settles down. It's only been 2 wks so far. He has a 'bun-bun' comforter and two dummies (one in mouth one in hand!) so he's fine there xx

I could see Jordyn doing this augh..
when she first started rolling on her stomach in her sleep she would realize and whine because she was so tired she didn't no what to do and made me paranoid she couldn't roll over ( which she can) just doesn't want to because when shes on the floor here she rolls!


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## AmyS

I think I've read every page of this thread over the last few days! It's fascinating!!! 

I've been bugging Noelle with pm's for the past few days, so I thought I'd give her a small break and get some tips from other ladies going through the "fun" stuff right now!

LO is going to be 7 months in a week. I've always fed her to sleep for night time and naps, so she's never been left to self soothe. However, at daycare, they do let her CIO.

She used to STTN, but then, you know, all that crappy developmental stuff started happening, and now she has mostly really bad nights. We've got multiple wake ups, 4:30 wake ups (for the day she thinks), eyes popping right back open as soon as I lay her down...the normal...

I was going to do some sleep training. I was going to do the sleep lady shuffle. I even thought about Ferber. I REALLY thought about Ferber yesterday morning when I had only had an hour of sleep the night before. But, when night time comes, I chicken out. Or, I think, maybe she'll grow out of this. Maybe tonight will be better. 

Last night was better - only up 3 times. I was still up at 4:30am for the day, rocking her in the chair because I don't want her up that early for the day!!! If I try to put her back down that early in the morning, she just wakes right back up. Urgh. 

Right now, I've been feeding her to sleep (with usually one bottle during the night). When she wakes up, I pick her up and rock her for a few minutes then lay her back down. She's usually back to sleep before I even move away from the crib. So, I really would like some tips for self soothing in the crib. But this is what happens when I try patting her on her back in the crib (she's a tummy sleeper): she starts trying to roll around like a maniac! Do I just let her go and pat whatever lands under my hand, or do I hold her down?? Or, is there a better way to soothe in the crib?? 

I know, I really need to work on teaching her how to self soothe on her own. I think she probably has an idea, since daycare has been making her CIO for about 4 weeks now for naps. But she knows she has mommy wrapped around her little finger!!!

Thanks for any suggestions!


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## Noelle610

Amy hope you get some good suggestions!

Those babies are tricky, aren't they Boo?! He must roll onto his tummy and then sit up. He is likely "practicing" this new skill in his sleep and it will get old soon :)

Charlie is still on two naps most days. Usually like 9-10 and then 1-3 or some variation of that. She does have one nap days. I think she needs two, but all of the other babies at her daycare are on one, so I've told our provider it's fine for her to skil the morning nap if they go to the park or something. I'm trying to be flexible - LOL! When it works out, it's fine. Yesterday she only napped from 12:30-3 and that was great. But if it doesn't work out and the one nap is short it sucks and results in an overtired baby.


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## mellyboo

Noelle610 said:


> Amy hope you get some good suggestions!
> 
> Those babies are tricky, aren't they Boo?! He must roll onto his tummy and then sit up. He is likely "practicing" this new skill in his sleep and it will get old soon :)
> 
> Charlie is still on two naps most days. Usually like 9-10 and then 1-3 or some variation of that. She does have one nap days. I think she needs two, but all of the other babies at her daycare are on one, so I've told our provider it's fine for her to skil the morning nap if they go to the park or something. I'm trying to be flexible - LOL! When it works out, it's fine. Yesterday she only napped from 12:30-3 and that was great. But if it doesn't work out and the one nap is short it sucks and results in an overtired baby.

This is my worse fear going back to work and she won't be able to go down with out being in her crib .. I'm finding latly she's having a hard time napping anywhere but.. that or the car.

Her morning nap is fine were always home in the morning ....the afternoon one she always falls alseep in the car ( on the weekends) or if OH is around during the day and were out we will just drive around till she wakes up.. 

Lets say i'm at the mall around her afternoon nap there is no way little miss jordyn will be sleeping she's to busy seeing whats going on instead!! :winkwink:

I have a feeling her days in day care for awhile are going to be harsh one's. lol


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## stephie_corin

AmyS said:


> I think I've read every page of this thread over the last few days! It's fascinating!!!
> 
> I've been bugging Noelle with pm's for the past few days, so I thought I'd give her a small break and get some tips from other ladies going through the "fun" stuff right now!
> 
> LO is going to be 7 months in a week. I've always fed her to sleep for night time and naps, so she's never been left to self soothe. However, at daycare, they do let her CIO.
> 
> She used to STTN, but then, you know, all that crappy developmental stuff started happening, and now she has mostly really bad nights. We've got multiple wake ups, 4:30 wake ups (for the day she thinks), eyes popping right back open as soon as I lay her down...the normal...
> 
> I was going to do some sleep training. I was going to do the sleep lady shuffle. I even thought about Ferber. I REALLY thought about Ferber yesterday morning when I had only had an hour of sleep the night before. But, when night time comes, I chicken out. Or, I think, maybe she'll grow out of this. Maybe tonight will be better.
> 
> Last night was better - only up 3 times. I was still up at 4:30am for the day, rocking her in the chair because I don't want her up that early for the day!!! If I try to put her back down that early in the morning, she just wakes right back up. Urgh.
> 
> Right now, I've been feeding her to sleep (with usually one bottle during the night). When she wakes up, I pick her up and rock her for a few minutes then lay her back down. She's usually back to sleep before I even move away from the crib. So, I really would like some tips for self soothing in the crib. But this is what happens when I try patting her on her back in the crib (she's a tummy sleeper): she starts trying to roll around like a maniac! Do I just let her go and pat whatever lands under my hand, or do I hold her down?? Or, is there a better way to soothe in the crib??
> 
> I know, I really need to work on teaching her how to self soothe on her own. I think she probably has an idea, since daycare has been making her CIO for about 4 weeks now for naps. But she knows she has mommy wrapped around her little finger!!!
> 
> Thanks for any suggestions!

Hi Amy and welcome!! You know I followed your other thread. Our babies are so similar!! Culver was STTN at three months (12 hours straight) and I thought I had this parenting thing nailed!!! Then, hello four month sleep regression!! 

I am a walking zombie. A good night is 4 or 5 wakeups. A bad night might be 20! It sounds like you are in the same place as us - and you work!!! So I take my hat off to you.

I personally think our current sleep issues relate to hitting milestones and teething - and just being a highly strung, very interested in the world baby.

I've definitely had moments where I've thought 'maybe CIO is the only answer?' But I'm not prepared to do it. If you do decide to do it, I would be behind you 100 percent but its not right for my family.

If you don't decide to so CIO I wonder if you would consider bed sharing. On our good nights, this has made a world of difference. It's much easier to soothe Cully and I can nurse lying down. I've side carred the cot to the bed and put our mattress on the ground. Your LO may also be missing mummy as you are at work, so this might help her to feel like she has more mummy time.

Regarding soothing, with my current set up I can lie next to Cully and rub his tummy. Some nights this works well but if he is teething this doesn't work at all. It's a real back saver though, being able to actually lie next to LO.

Regarding early wakeups, we had this quite badly too but the last week he has consistently woken between 545-615. What I did was consistently rock him back to sleep, even if it took an hour of me rocking. Now I have to soothe him at 5 but he goes back to sleep very easily.

I have my own idea about putting baby to bed asleep. I don't think it's as bad as is sometimes made out and I think it takes some babies (like mine) a while to learn how to do it. Until he is older and I can reason with him, I'm happy to help him to sleep. I've spoken to a few mums and anecdotally the ability to fall asleep by themselves or whether they have to be put down asleep by mum doesn't seem to have a massive correlation to night sleep. I'm sure others will have a different experience though.

Please keep posting, this is a great thread and all the women are so supportive. We all do things differently and have different approaches to sleep but it makes it a really balanced thread. Everyone also respects these differences and to be honest I haven't 'met' a nicer group of women.

Good luck!!! I'm sure you'll get some excellent advice from the others, I just wanted to share my perspective. X

Ps despite my rant I have seen huge improvements. These ladies have helped me get a good day schedule and also advised on a whole host of night issues. Thing will get better for you!!


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## stephie_corin

Vikki and Melly, glad you had great nights and things are getting better :) xx


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## AmyS

stephie - Thanks for the reply! It does sound like we've got a lot in common! Unfortunately, DH isn't comfortable co-sleeping since he moves around so much, and we have 2 dogs that sleep with us. Currently, LO is in her crib, and I sleep on an air mattress on her floor. 

From what I've read, I agree with you that how they are put to sleep doesn't have much to do with how they sleep through the night. Many pages back on this thread, there was a gal (Jessica, I think?) who fed her baby to sleep, and she ended up sleeping through the night. I didn't read word-for-word, but I'm pretty sure she didn't change what she was doing.

I also need to get my Chloe on a good day schedule, but it's so hard with daycare. I don't blame them, since it's 4 babies to 1 provider, it's really hard to follow a specific schedule. Chloe will be home with us for 4 days this weekend, so I might try getting her naps straightened out. Right now, she is tired 2 hours after wake time, I might try to stretch that out a little and see if I can get her some longer naps. Thirty minute naps does not help the situation!


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## seaweed eater

Vikki, glad you had a better morning! :thumbup: I can totally sympathize with your previous post. DH always wants to suggest various changes to naps during the day to work around our schedule, and I just tell him that he's not the one who has to deal with the fallout at night! Which is true!!

Boo, I'm sorry I don't know what to suggest about the sitting up :( what Noelle said is the advice I've generally heard, that it doesn't really matter whether you keep setting him down or letting him fuss, either way you just have to wait until he learns. Regarding daycare, I agree with Noelle again...it takes them a little while to adjust to a new daily routine. I've seen it with Munchkin and with other babies at his daycare. How long has he been going to these different childcares?

Stephie, hugs!! :hugs: That sounds just like a few nights we've had over the past few weeks. It's so frustrating, because I feel like the one rule I've always tried to stick to is that nighttime is NOT for playing. But that's the only thing that prevents screaming. :shrug: I'm 99% sure it's mostly developmental so we're just trying to WIO at the moment, but it doesn't happen every night -- if it did, I think I'd be a little more aggressive. Hang in there!

Shadowy, so glad you are STTN now yourself!! :happydance: That must feel amazing!

Amy, welcome :hugs: will get to your post separately...


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## stephie_corin

SE I feel like I've missed you around here, hope life hasn't been too busy :) sorry you are having a tough time too! Hugs to you hon xxx


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## Noelle610

Amy, JessicaTunnel - she fed her Lilly to sleep and I do believe she grew out of the sleep association and STTN arond 7/8 months. Maybe she will pop in and tell you more. It does happen. 

In terms of daycare, are all the babies a similar age? That gets so much easier when they're older and take fewer naps.


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## AmyS

Noelle610 said:


> Amy, JessicaTunnel - she fed her Lilly to sleep and I do believe she grew out of the sleep association and STTN arond 7/8 months. Maybe she will pop in and tell you more. It does happen.
> 
> In terms of daycare, are all the babies a similar age? That gets so much easier when they're older and take fewer naps.

Yes, that was who I was thinking about, thanks! Hope she can relay her story if she sees this and has time!

At daycare, the babies in that room can range anywhere from newborn to a year old. I think they either have to get used to sleeping in the racket, or they nap like crap until they move to the next room where they do have scheduled nap times. Small towns = not much in terms of choice for daycare!


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## VikkiD

Thanks SE - that's exactly what I told my OH don't think he dare suggest anything now lol


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## Noelle610

AmyS said:


> Noelle610 said:
> 
> 
> Amy, JessicaTunnel - she fed her Lilly to sleep and I do believe she grew out of the sleep association and STTN arond 7/8 months. Maybe she will pop in and tell you more. It does happen.
> 
> In terms of daycare, are all the babies a similar age? That gets so much easier when they're older and take fewer naps.
> 
> Yes, that was who I was thinking about, thanks! Hope she can relay her story if she sees this and has time!
> 
> At daycare, the babies in that room can range anywhere from newborn to a year old. I think they either have to get used to sleeping in the racket, or they nap like crap until they move to the next room where they do have scheduled nap times. Small towns = not much in terms of choice for daycare!Click to expand...

That sucks! I totally understand your predicament. I use an in-home daycare and my provider didn't want to put Charlotte away from the other kids to nap for the longest time. The other baby her age did fine napping through noise, but C just cat-napped all day. It was only when she got a bit older and she felt more comfortable putting her to bed upstairs that she actually started napping well there.


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## NotNic

Boo44 said:


> Hi girls long time no post!
> 
> Jack has started sitting up in his sleep! He did it twice last night. He can't get down so has to be laid down by us but then immediately sleeps again. It's so strange! Have any of you got advice re that?
> 
> Also as he's now at 3 different child cares during the week I have lost control of his naps :) He still needs 2 as his morning wake up is tending to be around 6.30 so by 10am he's tired. Thing is they often report that he had like 2 45min naps. At home he would have much longer naps. And he's often overtired which I think is contributing to early wake ups. I don't think there is much I can do about this? If he would have one nap days I think they would find it easier but I can't see him getting to lunch time! Any advice girls?
> 
> Also he's getting 2 pre molars now and has started pulling to standing and cruising so its all going on!!
> 
> Hope you're all well xx

Nothing changes Boo. Finlay and Jack react in exactly the same way to things!!! The learning to lay back down doesnt take that long. I'd say the phase lasted a week or two max. He still sits bolt upright with his eyes shut if he is woken by pain or wind, but I can lay him down and within seconds he is calm and asleep again. No idea why half asleep he wants to be upright when the rest of us would huddle under a duvet!! Also at nursery for the first few weeks he had x3 30-45 min naps a day. His last session he managed a 90min am nap and a 45min pm one. I think they just get better as they become more settled in their surroundings. Finlay also has a toy and his own blanket which we take in which might be helping.

How are you finding work?

As for us the early riser seems to be catching up on months of sleep, lying in until 7.30. It's making me late for work and I'm ever so behind on my washing. :haha:


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## NotNic

Also in case he sounds angelic, I better tell you that he has started to wake 6-7 times a night again. Flipping teeth!!

Amy - what's the first thing you want to work on? Sleep training is daunting until you break it down. Can you live with the early waking if the wake ups are fewer? Do you want to wean lo off night feeds? Also I'm going to hazard a guess that your lo might be giving you an extra tough time because of the CIO in the daytime. Have you thought about chatting to your childcare and finding out how exactly they do it, or if lo self-soothes in a particular way? You don't have to do CIO yourself, but you could replicate some of that routine to help encourage ss at home.


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## AmyS

NotNic - Hello! My ultimate goal (for now) would be fewer wake ups. I don't even mind 1 or 2 a night, and I don't mind feeding her at night if that's what she needs (She's never been a great eater). I think she'll eventually grow out of the early wake ups if I keep consistently putting her back to sleep until her normal wake up time. 

I never even thought that the CIO at daycare could be affecting her nights at home!! All they do is strap her into her rock 'n play when she's fussy and let her cry. I think they also let her hold a burp rag for comfort, even though they aren't supposed to have anything with them for naps. (DH isn't comfortable letting her sleep with a lovey at home. He is too paranoid.) 

Random fact: she has never taken to a pacifier either!


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## seaweed eater

Amy, can you tell us about her daily routine? How much daytime sleep does she usually get at daycare? Are the naps at a regular time or on demand? And when you say they use CIO, is she still crying a lot before she goes down? If they've been doing that for weeks and she's still crying, that's kind of a red flag for me in terms of sleep training -- if they're overextended and can't give her one-on-one attention to get her to sleep, that's one thing, but it shouldn't be considered sleep _training_ at that point IMO.

30 minute naps don't mean the situation is hopeless. Often naps will lengthen after you lengthen WTs. And even if they don't lengthen by much, sometimes it can be enough. My LO has been doing pretty well on two 40-50 minute naps most days for over a month now.

And when do you put her down for the night?

I assume you have ruled out that it's light or noise contributing to the wakings -- might sound silly, but if you want to stick to no cry techniques I think you really have to get everything else right.

Are there any other ways you can soothe her to sleep, aside from feeding? Rocking perhaps? Does she calm down if you pick her up, or only if you feed her? Patting is a disaster for us as well. Just leaving my hand on him with a bit of pressure seems much better. If he's mad he still won't tolerate it and physically removes my hand from his body, but if he's almost asleep and just needs a little bit of help, that can do it sometimes. And most babies seem to take better to alternate soothing techniques than mine does! Might be something to try if you haven't already.

I'm going to respectfully (affectionately!) disagree with Stephie! I do think there are plenty of babies who learn to self-settle on their own with no intervention. That may be why there are a lot of feed-to-sleepers etc. out there who STTN. But to me the more relevant question is, if your baby is NOT one of those babies, would the ability to SS make a difference? And for us the answer has definitely been yes. I think when I started sleep training I thought it was sort of a general, probabilistic thing where a baby who knows how to SS is more likely to sleep for longer. But in fact we've often a much more specific effect, where for _a given stretch of sleep_ LO sleeps for longer if he SS. It's obviously not a perfect correspondence, but strong enough to notice. I believe the same has been true for many others on this thread. It may not work for every baby, and obviously as a sleep training dropout there's only so much I can say in favor of that approach, but I do think if you are trying to lengthen sleep stretches, it is a productive approach to take.

Please keep talking to us, I hope we can give you some ideas that will help :hugs:


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## seaweed eater

AFM, I am thinking it might be time to try gradual withdrawal/Sleep Lady Shuffle type training. Will sleep on it (ha ha, get it) and start Friday if it still seems like a good idea.

I think it might be a good time because:

- LO still can't get up from lying down, but he's going to learn how very soon.

- Our usual nursing routine hasn't been working great for the past maybe 3-4 nights. He wants to suck for ages and ages and won't fall asleep. Also he's started getting extremely frustrated and mad after I've de-latched him several times, and then sometimes he doesn't want to nurse anymore anyway. I can't rule out teething pain as a cause for this, but I've kind of given up on waiting for that.

- On two occasions, when he's been tired but in full tantrum mode, I've put him in his crib and sat next to him and shhhed without touching him, and he's calmed down and fallen asleep within surprisingly few minutes (and no puke). So I think there might be hope for that as an alternate way to settle him.

- I'm feeling relatively well rested and upbeat...I know it's ironic, but I've realized that I don't really feel like I have the energy for sleep training when I'm feeling exhausted, especially because I know it's probably going to make my own sleep much worse temporarily.

Also our doctor was very encouraging about gradual withdrawal as a better sleep training method than Ferber/CIO for a baby with separation anxiety. I know he's not a sleep specialist, but it was still nice to hear that from him.

My one reservation is that we are having a textbook WW37 so I wonder if we are making things harder on ourselves by taking this on when there is so much developmental stuff going on. But I'm not really convinced there's ever going to be less going on until after he learns to walk (and maybe not then).

:shrug: Any thoughts?


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## AmyS

seaweed - Thanks for the reply! I'll try to answer as best I can! 

I can't give you much of a routine for daycare days, because sometimes she will nap great, but most times she just cat naps here and there all day long. She comes home overtired every day. I'm going to talk with daycare tomorrow about her naps to see if she's still crying a lot when they put her down or not. 

Every day, she is up by 6am, and on weekends, typically has her first nap by 8am. It's about 45 minutes long. Her second nap would probably be about 11am, for another 45 minutes. Her longest nap is in the afternoon, between 2-2:30pm, for 2-2 1/2 hours. I have to hold her for her naps, otherwise they would all be 30 minutes or less! I strive for good naps on the weekend so that she at least gets in some good sleep once in a while! Our short bedtime routine starts at 7 or 7:15 - pj's, diaper, book, bottle, bed. She is usually so cranky by then, that I end up skipping a few pages of the book! She is always asleep by 7:30. I rock her until about 8pm before putting her in her crib. 

I have also rocked or bounced her to sleep for naps and most night wakings, because I only feed her once a night usually. She almost always calms down right away when I pick her up, unless she seems to be fighting sleep. Sometimes she fusses and pushes against me, but still seems to be sleeping... 

I do have a black out curtain in her room and a white noise machine going at night. We live in a pretty quiet area, so I'm pretty sure it's not noise waking her up. 

Sorry if my response is hurried!!! Baby girl is getting cranky fast, and it's time for a nap! Hopefully I can nap with her!!


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## Boo44

NotNic said:


> Boo44 said:
> 
> 
> Hi girls long time no post!
> 
> Jack has started sitting up in his sleep! He did it twice last night. He can't get down so has to be laid down by us but then immediately sleeps again. It's so strange! Have any of you got advice re that?
> 
> Also as he's now at 3 different child cares during the week I have lost control of his naps :) He still needs 2 as his morning wake up is tending to be around 6.30 so by 10am he's tired. Thing is they often report that he had like 2 45min naps. At home he would have much longer naps. And he's often overtired which I think is contributing to early wake ups. I don't think there is much I can do about this? If he would have one nap days I think they would find it easier but I can't see him getting to lunch time! Any advice girls?
> 
> Also he's getting 2 pre molars now and has started pulling to standing and cruising so its all going on!!
> 
> Hope you're all well xx
> 
> Nothing changes Boo. Finlay and Jack react in exactly the same way to things!!! The learning to lay back down doesnt take that long. I'd say the phase lasted a week or two max. He still sits bolt upright with his eyes shut if he is woken by pain or wind, but I can lay him down and within seconds he is calm and asleep again. No idea why half asleep he wants to be upright when the rest of us would huddle under a duvet!! Also at nursery for the first few weeks he had x3 30-45 min naps a day. His last session he managed a 90min am nap and a 45min pm one. I think they just get better as they become more settled in their surroundings. Finlay also has a toy and his own blanket which we take in which might be helping.
> 
> How are you finding work?
> 
> As for us the early riser seems to be catching up on months of sleep, lying in until 7.30. It's making me late for work and I'm ever so behind on my washing. :haha:Click to expand...

Haha! I was just feeling bereft that Finlay was sleeping until 7.30 and not following his buddy Jack with the 6.30 starts - but I'll let you off with those night wakings!! Poor you x


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## jessicatunnel

Hey Amy! I'm sorry you're having a tough time, trust me, I've been there! I remember the days when she was waking up 7+ times a night and sometimes even up to 16/17! I honestly thought, there is NO WAY she will EVER sleep through the night. Well, she is now! And has been since.. 7 months I think?
We were feeding her to sleep from the day she was born. I knew it was such a bad habit but gosh, anything just to get her to sleep right? I actually messaged Noelle and asked for tips on how to get her to sleep without feeding to sleep and she gave me really good tips but in my head I was thinking, "Psh, yeah that will NOT work with Lilly." Lilly definitely was NOT the kind of baby I could just stick in the crib and walk out. She would SCREAM. Our bedtime routine was bath, story, bottle, bed. She was always falling asleep on the bottle, even if I tried to keep her awake it wouldn't work or she would get REALLY mad. Noelle suggested I move the bottle to the beginning of our routine. I wasn't completely confident that moving the bottle to the beginning of our routine would work so I kept it the same but instead of feeding her upstairs in her room in the dark, I brought her downstairs and read her a story and then fed her in the living room with dim lights. Being downstairs, she thought it was still play time and it was actually quite difficult getting her to drink the bottle because she wanted to play and I just kept thinking, "This is going to be a rough night, she's not going to go down after this, maybe I should just feed her to sleep?" I eventually got her to drink her full bottle and daddy gave her kisses and told her night night and I took her upstairs and laid her in her crib. Usually the moment her head touched the mattress she would cry but she just looked up at me. I gave her kisses, told her night night, covered her up and walked out. To my surprise and amazement she went to sleep! No crying, no fussing. She talked a little bit to herself but yeah, she self soothed and I was so proud. But I thought, this was a fluke, it's not going to last. Well she did it again the next night! And the next one, and the next one! It eventually got to where we would give her her bottle around 7, and let her walk around and drink it on her own however fast she wanted to, then we would do the rest of our routine and have her in bed by 730 with her putting herself to sleep. I never in a million years thought it would be so easy, or that my crazy fed to sleep obsessed baby would ever cooperate so well!


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## Noelle610

jessicatunnel said:


> Hey Amy! I'm sorry you're having a tough time, trust me, I've been there! I remember the days when she was waking up 7+ times a night and sometimes even up to 16/17! I honestly thought, there is NO WAY she will EVER sleep through the night. Well, she is now! And has been since.. 7 months I think?
> We were feeding her to sleep from the day she was born. I knew it was such a bad habit but gosh, anything just to get her to sleep right? I actually messaged Noelle and asked for tips on how to get her to sleep without feeding to sleep and she gave me really good tips but in my head I was thinking, "Psh, yeah that will NOT work with Lilly." Lilly definitely was NOT the kind of baby I could just stick in the crib and walk out. She would SCREAM. Our bedtime routine was bath, story, bottle, bed. She was always falling asleep on the bottle, even if I tried to keep her awake it wouldn't work or she would get REALLY mad. Noelle suggested I move the bottle to the beginning of our routine. I wasn't completely confident that moving the bottle to the beginning of our routine would work so I kept it the same but instead of feeding her upstairs in her room in the dark, I brought her downstairs and read her a story and then fed her in the living room with dim lights. Being downstairs, she thought it was still play time and it was actually quite difficult getting her to drink the bottle because she wanted to play and I just kept thinking, "This is going to be a rough night, she's not going to go down after this, maybe I should just feed her to sleep?" I eventually got her to drink her full bottle and daddy gave her kisses and told her night night and I took her upstairs and laid her in her crib. Usually the moment her head touched the mattress she would cry but she just looked up at me. I gave her kisses, told her night night, covered her up and walked out. To my surprise and amazement she went to sleep! No crying, no fussing. She talked a little bit to herself but yeah, she self soothed and I was so proud. But I thought, this was a fluke, it's not going to last. Well she did it again the next night! And the next one, and the next one! It eventually got to where we would give her her bottle around 7, and let her walk around and drink it on her own however fast she wanted to, then we would do the rest of our routine and have her in bed by 730 with her putting herself to sleep. I never in a million years thought it would be so easy, or that my crazy fed to sleep obsessed baby would ever cooperate so well!

A success story! Thanks Jessica :)


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## AmyS

Thanks Jessica! That's amazing! Honestly I can't imagine Chloe going down that easy. I am scared to try that but I am planning to some night when hubby is home for bedtime. I think it will take a lot of effort to keep her awake since she is always so tired. Can I ask what you would have done if she would have started crying? 

(Everything I post on here makes it very apparent that my little diva runs the show!)


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## NotNic

Boo - don't worry. I'm sure these 7.30's are just a phase! :rofl: Though if the trend continues I'm sure you'll have some lie ins coming up soon. :D

Amy - the best tip I got about night wakings was about giving a baby the chance to settle on their own. Not saying CIO but just holding back or hovering at the doorway to see if they need you or if they fall back asleep on their own, rather than rushing in to settle them. In some cases that activity wakes them up or disturbs their cycle. A minute or two observing from a safe point away from the crib isn't harmful and for a clingy baby, personally I don't think it hurts for them to start to appreciate that you can't always respond immediately. By watching as well you'll notice the different types of cries - the ones that are about to escalate and need intervention and the ones which are part of their own sleep routine.


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## AmyS

NotNic - Very true - I do need to wait it out before I intervene. I think sometimes I worry that if I wait too long, she'll be wide awake, and then it'll take even longer to get her back to sleep. And then sometimes I wonder if she was even awake, because she is settled as soon as her head hits my shoulder. (And I'm not THAT good!! haha)


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## seaweed eater

Amy, that amount of daytime sleep would be far, far too much for my LO. I know mine is on the lower end in terms of daytime sleep, and you said you try to let yours catch up since she doesn't sleep enough during the week, but it still sounds like a lot to me.

How old did you say she is? Almost 7 months? The wake times sound short for that age, too. It's interesting that you say she is cranky and ready to sleep by that time! Many of us in this thread have moved to 2 naps at that age and found that it has helped a lot. What do you think would happen if you stretched her wake times to 3 hours? Total meltdown?


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## AmyS

seaweed eater said:


> Amy, that amount of daytime sleep would be far, far too much for my LO. I know mine is on the lower end in terms of daytime sleep, and you said you try to let yours catch up since she doesn't sleep enough during the week, but it still sounds like a lot to me.
> 
> How old did you say she is? Almost 7 months? The wake times sound short for that age, too. It's interesting that you say she is cranky and ready to sleep by that time! Many of us in this thread have moved to 2 naps at that age and found that it has helped a lot. What do you think would happen if you stretched her wake times to 3 hours? Total meltdown?

Right now, she's only been awake for 1 1/2 hours, and she's getting cranky and acting ready for bed! I agree, it seems like her wake times are short. She's always been on the low side of wake times for her age, and I'm not sure if it has something to do with the fact that she was born 5 weeks early. I'm always unsure of what things you need to adjust their age for! 

What would you suggest to start with? 2.5 hours?


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## seaweed eater

Hmm...I'd try, maybe 3 times, putting her down half an hour later than you normally would. Like, notice the moment when you would normally put her down, look at the clock, and then shoot for half an hour after that. Just to see what would happen.


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## seaweed eater

Well we have started sleep training :dohh:

I didn't mean to, but I got myself trapped. I tried to nurse to sleep but LO did his new screaming at the boob thing. I guess I could have had DH try to put him down, but having me sit by his bed has been working better lately, so I did that. And then once I did that, I realized that, if there was any chance we were going to sleep train on Friday, I couldn't pick him up or I'd be making things much harder. Soooo...I was stuck. And here we are.

The good news is it's behind us :thumbup: I hope it goes better this time. It was a million times better than night 1 last time so hopefully this method will work better. Part of me deep down just doesn't believe anything will work. But we're going to try it for a week.

Going to still nurse at night and then really make sure I'm waking him up before I put him back to bed so he can resettle himself. I know you're not supposed to feed during the night according to the Sleep Lady's version, but I'm just not comfortable cutting him off when he's been having 3+ feeds during the night.


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## stephie_corin

Amy I went cold turkey on 2 naps and just pushed through the tired signs. I'd start on a weekend but it only took Cully a few days to get used to the longer waketimes. We do 2.5-2.75 / 3-3.25 / 3.75-4.

I rock C to sleep too! I actually managed I stop the amount of rocking needed but this last few days have reverted to rocking again as sleep has gone to pot, whether teething or milestones or something else!! I plan on getting back on track once he gets whatever is in his system at the moment out!!

SE, I just googled WW37 and I think it could explain Culver's weird behaviour!! C won't nurse to sleep either and every night waking is such a battle. None of the usual tricks work. He pushes me away but as soon as I put him down he cries! He was 2 weeks overdue so hits the wonder weeks a little early. Frustrated and mad are the exact words I would use to describe him. 

I personally am going to give him a week to get back to normal. His sleep has been so weird this last few nights - I do hope it's a phase and we don't need to wait until they are walking!! If this is his new normal I am so lost about what to do ... Lol. I'm glad you've found a new way to soothe munchkin! That's great :) and yay for feeling positive!

Good luck if you decide to do gradual withdrawal! It certainly sounds like you will have success with it! With all the factors you've listed I think you're right, it is a good time and he is hopefully is a place where he will be responsive to the training. I quite like the idea if the gradual withdrawal and have been doing it in my own way (reducing rocking, trying to soothe with a tummy rub etc.)

X


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## stephie_corin

Ah SE we cross posted! So what did you do? Was it CC or did you try a gradual withdrawal type method? How long did he take to fall asleep? Good luck!!! X


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## seaweed eater

Stephie, I think giving it a week is certainly a good idea. I think it all started about a month ago for us, so around C's age (and as you know Munchkin was a little overdue too), but there was a lot going on then between getting his tooth and stopping sleep training, so it's hard to pinpoint. I hope it ends more quickly for you. :hugs:

Cross posted again :) we're doing gradual withdrawal, so tonight I sat next to his bed. I shhhed and occasionally sang to him a bit and said "Time to sleep" in a quiet voice. I did pat him once (Sleep Lady says you can :p) but it made things worse so I probably won't do it again. We were doing really well until he rolled onto his tummy and pushed up and started crawling :nope: I had to turn him over since he can't do it himself, but he was really really mad. But he calmed down in a reasonable amount of time. I don't know how long, but not that long, and most importantly NO PUKE.


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## stephie_corin

SE I'm so happy for you!! Please keep us updated on your progress! I would be totally up for trying something like this. Good luck the next few nights! And yay for no puking!! :) xxxx


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## NotNic

Amy - for physical and developmental things I think it's right to do adjusted age, particularly with a baby born before 37 weeks. The Wonder Weeks book tells you to adjust on all their milestones too. Of course some babies are naturally a bit earlier or slower, regardless of when they did arrive as temperament plays a big part too. Finlay was one week early, so for WW he should be 1 week behind but he normally hits them at least 10 days ahead of schedule. I guess it's his temperament to be early (as the months of 5.30am wake ups told me!) and physically his growth spurts were all happening about two weeks early too. Our HV spotted that by looking at his red book. His peaks were always ahead of the 'average' baby which meant he always sounded huge on the weight percentiles, when actually he'd just grown a lot earlier than expected. 

I do agree Amy that it sounds like your lo should be increasing wake times. It may even be that the cat napping is impacting on night sleep. If she's used to spending the weekend napping in short bursts, why would she sleep for longer periods at night? These bursts are normal patterns for your lo, which means she's not getting the restorative sleep (where they process what they've learnt and do their growing) at night as she's not tired enough, but come morning she's too tired to be awake and happy for reasonable periods of time. Also if you get into the routine of catch up sleep, its more likely you will motor through with less sleep. Normally I would say a gradual approach is best but in your case a sharp jolt to your routine might be what you need to 'reset' her. Try doing a consistent morning wake up time and stretching that first wake up time by 15-30mins. Don't worry about the others for now. A longer gap between night time sleep and naps helps to differentiate the two. Also give them big clues that bedtime is night time not napping, with a routine and a wind down that suits your lo. I make a massive song and dance about greeting F of a morning, so when he wakes at night and I'm boring (no eye contact, talking etc.) he gets the hint that he needs to go back to sleep.

AFM - I may have worked the BNB curse to my advantage. After a week of lie ins I woke today at 5.45am to hear him playing with the soft cubes and chattering to himself. Last night he did need a cuddle and nurofen but after that slept for a 5.5hr stretch. It's so nice to hear him wake up content and calm. Makes a change to crying loudly for us or manically jumping up and down shouting at the cat!!


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## VikkiD

Lo went bed before 7 again and sttn last night was up at 5:30 I will take the early mornings anyway over the night wakings. Hubby still thinks its too early for him to wake though we tried his later bedtime though an that was a disaster.


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## stephie_corin

Vikki that's so great! I agree, take STTN over early wakings! 

NotNic, great advice as usual! And I'm glad your LO is doing well!!


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## seaweed eater

Quick update:

LO asleep 8:45.
Awake 3:35. Nursed for a few minutes, came off the boob himself (awake).
Cried for 3 seconds as I put him in his crib, then rolled over and babbled for a minute. Fell asleep after about 5 minutes of moving around quietly.
Called out a few minutes after I left his room (I waited 10 minutes after he seemed asleep). I decided to give him a minute before going in, and he went back to sleep. Same thing about 15 minutes later.
Then awake 6:45.

Who is this baby??

I on the other hand barely slept at all :wacko: too much suspense! :haha:


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## stephie_corin

That is amazing SE!!!! Wow!! You are now the official baby sleep guru. I'm flying you to Dubai as a sleep consultant.

I hope you get some sleep yourself tonight :) xxx


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## Noelle610

Yay seaweed!!!


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## AmyS

Ok, so I hear what you are all saying about increasing wake time, and I have a couple of questions - If I use Stephie's schedule of 2.5-2.75/3-3.25/3.75-4 and the first nap is only 30 minutes, then do I still follow the schedule? I don't think she'd be able to make it 3 more hours on a 30 minute nap. Or what if she cries on and off for an hour her first nap (she does this at daycare they tell me). 

Also, as I've said, I've been holding her for all of her naps at home...how do I transition out of doing this while lengthening her wake times while not screwing everything up? I'd like her to start napping in her crib. 

Last night went surprisingly well!!!! I can't believe it!!!! I fed her at 7pm, but didn't put her in her crib until 8pm. Then, DH came home at 8:15, and the barking dogs woke her up. I put my hand on her back to soothe her, and it was working until daddy came in the room...and daddy is FUN, so all she wanted to do was play. So I picked her up then and rocked her, she was back down in 2 minutes. Then, she slept until....drumroll, please....3am!!!! And then I had a hard time getting her back down since it is that crappy light sleep time, so I ended up rocking her in the chair from 4:30 - 6am. But, I call this progress!!!

Stephie - When you say during your son's night wakes he pushes away from you but cries if you put him down, my Chloe does the same thing to me sometimes! It's like she's angry with me for trying to soothe her, but she gets mad if I stop trying too. When she does this, I have the most success with bouncing her like I used to do when she was a newborn. 

Seaweed - Sounds like you had a really good night trying out the Sleep Lady! As I read your post, you are feeding to sleep, but waking him up before you set him down? How are you waking him up, can I ask? That might be something I will try, since Chloe always falls asleep on the bottle.


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## Noelle610

AmyS said:


> Ok, so I hear what you are all saying about increasing wake time, and I have a couple of questions - If I use Stephie's schedule of 2.5-2.75/3-3.25/3.75-4 and the first nap is only 30 minutes, then do I still follow the schedule? I don't think she'd be able to make it 3 more hours on a 30 minute nap. Or what if she cries on and off for an hour her first nap (she does this at daycare they tell me).
> 
> Also, as I've said, I've been holding her for all of her naps at home...how do I transition out of doing this while lengthening her wake times while not screwing everything up? I'd like her to start napping in her crib.
> 
> Last night went surprisingly well!!!! I can't believe it!!!! I fed her at 7pm, but didn't put her in her crib until 8pm. Then, DH came home at 8:15, and the barking dogs woke her up. I put my hand on her back to soothe her, and it was working until daddy came in the room...and daddy is FUN, so all she wanted to do was play. So I picked her up then and rocked her, she was back down in 2 minutes. Then, she slept until....drumroll, please....3am!!!! And then I had a hard time getting her back down since it is that crappy light sleep time, so I ended up rocking her in the chair from 4:30 - 6am. But, I call this progress!!!


Hi Amy! That sounds like such a wonderful night. I'm happy to hear about your progress! Do you play LOUD white noise? That might help with some of the early evening disruptions. You can use a white noise machine, an app on your phone or even a loud box fan. 

If you use Stephanie's wake times and get a short nap, you can do two things. You can shorten wake times slightly for the next nap or you can just continue with the suggested wake times an do an early bedtime if needed. I'm a fan of the second option, because it does sometimes take time for naps to lengthen when you stretch wake times. If you continue shortening them because of short naps, you may never get where you want to be. I always suggest sunlight for keeping your baby up when they want to sleep - it supresses the production of melatonin and will biologically keep them "awake". Sometimes you have to deal with a bit of fussiness when you're trying to stretch a wake time and yield longer naps. I'd give it a week before believe it's not working or she's not ready.

I would get nights in order before you move to not holding her for naps. Preserve daytime sleep at all costs until nights are "good", which I would define as two consistant weeks of STTN or 1-2 night wakings with a mininum of a 6 hour stretch overnight. 

Hope that helps!


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## stephie_corin

Amy, Noelle has suggested exactly what we do. I'm strict on awake times (if he goes longer I'm not worried too much but I don't let him sleep before the minimum awake time. He naturally wakes up 545-6.15 now but I set an alarm for 615 just in case. So our bedtime can vary by as much as an hour if naps are long (rare). I'm certain you will get to the longer awake times really quickly, even with cat naps. We had a few days of fussiness but distraction (outside like Noelle says, a short outing etc.,) really helps to deal with fussiness.

Thanks for the tip on getting him back to sleep - I'll try that tonight for sure :)

Xx

Edit - congrats on the amazing progress!! I hope it continues!!


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## AmyS

Noelle - That helps, thanks. I was thinking that it might not work to try putting her in the crib yet when nights are still such a mess. Hopefully we are on our way out of the mess!

I do have a white noise machine in her room, but tonight I'll try it on the higher setting. Maybe it'll help for that early morning crappy sleep. And I swear that I read Ferber says the last 2 hours of baby's sleep are the deepest???? I must have been dreaming that.


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## stephie_corin

Oh I should say we started with a last wake time of around 3.5 - he gradually stretched this out himself. So if she's tired before 3.75 you might want to put her down a tiny bit earlier x


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## polaris

Hi everyone.

Clara's sleep is back to being awful again after about a week of good nights (only 2 or 3 wakings). Last night she was up every hour or sometimes more often. She has just got her two top front teeth and still seems to be teething. So maybe I just need to wait it out for a week and see if she settles down again? But honestly it is just one thing after another with Clara, she seems to be constantly either unwell or teething. She is also back to wanting to be fed to sleep again although she does wake up slightly when I transfer her into the cot and settles back to sleep herself.

I don't really know what to do. I am due back in work next month (although I'm hoping to take a bit of extra unpaid leave) - as things stand there is no way that I would be able to function in work on so little sleep. I feel like I need to do something but I'm just lost about what is the best thing to do. I wouldn't mind doing sleep training involving crying if I was certain that it would work but she didn't really properly respond last time and there was an awful lot of crying - and I'm just not sure that I can put either of us through that again. She just slips back into bad sleep patterns so easily with any illness/teething/etc. so that even if sleep training worked, I worry that she would just relapse back again with the next tooth or cold. I am also wondering about going back to co-sleeping. We have practical difficulties in that all of the bedrooms are small and the layout is not perfect. Our bedroom is not ideal because it's not possible to put the bed against a wall due to the layout of wardrobes/windows/etc. and also OH would have to sleep elsewhere as the bed is not big enough for three of us. Clara is currently in the box room. There is a futon in there which I sleep on when she's very unsettled but the room isn't big enough to open the futon out when the cot is in there so it's not suitable for co-sleeping. I was actually considering moving the futon into my 3 year old's room and sleeping in there with Clara. Am I crazy for thinking about this? I would probably keep putting her in the cot for naps and bedtimes but then bring her in to sleep with me on the futon when she wakes after I've gone to bed. This is the only option that I can really think of for safe co-sleeping. I know my 3 year old would absolutely love the idea (actually he suggested it!) and actually that is holding me back a bit because it might not work out and then he'd be so disappointed. 

Open to any suggestions!!! I feel so lost and don't know what direction to go with her sleep now. So should I:
1. Do nothing and just wait it out and see if her sleep settles down again (as it was actually getting better up until we went away last weekend)
2. Do some sleep training (would need to psych myself up)
3. Co-sleeping (but where?)
Don't know what to do.


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## stephie_corin

Noelle610 said:


> I would get nights in order before you move to not holding her for naps. Preserve daytime sleep at all costs until nights are "good", which I would define as two consistant weeks of STTN or 1-2 night wakings with a mininum of a 6 hour stretch overnight.
> 
> Hope that helps!

This is so interesting Noelle. I've been debating letting C go back to his cat naps and stoping holding him or helping him back to sleep when he wakes early but I think I'll persevere now. Thanks for this.


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## Noelle610

AmyS said:


> Noelle - That helps, thanks. I was thinking that it might not work to try putting her in the crib yet when nights are still such a mess. Hopefully we are on our way out of the mess!
> 
> I do have a white noise machine in her room, but tonight I'll try it on the higher setting. Maybe it'll help for that early morning crappy sleep. And I swear that I read Ferber says the last 2 hours of baby's sleep are the deepest???? I must have been dreaming that.

Definitely on the highest setting! 

Babies are in their lightest sleep cycle between 4am and 6am. If they don't get up at that time, they'll sometimes drift back into a deep sleep after 6am. It's more clock-related since it's biological.


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## Noelle610

stephie_corin said:


> Noelle610 said:
> 
> 
> I would get nights in order before you move to not holding her for naps. Preserve daytime sleep at all costs until nights are "good", which I would define as two consistant weeks of STTN or 1-2 night wakings with a mininum of a 6 hour stretch overnight.
> 
> Hope that helps!
> 
> This is so interesting Noelle. I've been debating letting C go back to his cat naps and stoping holding him or helping him back to sleep when he wakes early but I think I'll persevere now. Thanks for this.Click to expand...

Glad that helps :)


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## Noelle610

polaris said:


> Hi everyone.
> 
> Clara's sleep is back to being awful again after about a week of good nights (only 2 or 3 wakings). Last night she was up every hour or sometimes more often. She has just got her two top front teeth and still seems to be teething. So maybe I just need to wait it out for a week and see if she settles down again? But honestly it is just one thing after another with Clara, she seems to be constantly either unwell or teething. She is also back to wanting to be fed to sleep again although she does wake up slightly when I transfer her into the cot and settles back to sleep herself.
> 
> I don't really know what to do. I am due back in work next month (although I'm hoping to take a bit of extra unpaid leave) - as things stand there is no way that I would be able to function in work on so little sleep. I feel like I need to do something but I'm just lost about what is the best thing to do. I wouldn't mind doing sleep training involving crying if I was certain that it would work but she didn't really properly respond last time and there was an awful lot of crying - and I'm just not sure that I can put either of us through that again. She just slips back into bad sleep patterns so easily with any illness/teething/etc. so that even if sleep training worked, I worry that she would just relapse back again with the next tooth or cold. I am also wondering about going back to co-sleeping. We have practical difficulties in that all of the bedrooms are small and the layout is not perfect. Our bedroom is not ideal because it's not possible to put the bed against a wall due to the layout of wardrobes/windows/etc. and also OH would have to sleep elsewhere as the bed is not big enough for three of us. Clara is currently in the box room. There is a futon in there which I sleep on when she's very unsettled but the room isn't big enough to open the futon out when the cot is in there so it's not suitable for co-sleeping. I was actually considering moving the futon into my 3 year old's room and sleeping in there with Clara. Am I crazy for thinking about this? I would probably keep putting her in the cot for naps and bedtimes but then bring her in to sleep with me on the futon when she wakes after I've gone to bed. This is the only option that I can really think of for safe co-sleeping. I know my 3 year old would absolutely love the idea (actually he suggested it!) and actually that is holding me back a bit because it might not work out and then he'd be so disappointed.
> 
> Open to any suggestions!!! I feel so lost and don't know what direction to go with her sleep now. So should I:
> 1. Do nothing and just wait it out and see if her sleep settles down again (as it was actually getting better up until we went away last weekend)
> 2. Do some sleep training (would need to psych myself up)
> 3. Co-sleeping (but where?)
> Don't know what to do.


I don't think there's a right or wrong answer. You really have to do what you're comfortable with.

I'm not a fan of option 1. There's always something. If she falls into old sleep habits easily, you're going to have to be 110% consistant. So consistant it hurts. I know it's hard to have a baby like that when it seems like others go through a 3 day sleep training and STTN from then on! Honestly, it's a compliment to Clara - she's smart! She has your number ;)

If you do decide to go foward with sleep training, I would do CC with longer intervals or just straight CIO/extinction (with one check of course - I'd never advocate not checking on a crying baby). It will be easier for you to be consistent with these methods, which will in turn likely result in _less_ overall crying.

I think it's fine to go back to co-sleeping if you prefer, but only if you *want* to. I'm in favor of co-sleeping, but only when it's desirable for the whole family. 

I think the most important thing is that Clara gets quality, solid, uninterrupted sleep. Using your mommy instincts, how do you think she would sleep best? With you? Or in her own bed? Again, no right answer here! It's very personal. Good luck with whatever you choose hun :flower:


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## AmyS

stephie_corin said:


> Oh I should say we started with a last wake time of around 3.5 - he gradually stretched this out himself. So if she's tired before 3.75 you might want to put her down a tiny bit earlier x

This scares me the most - 3.5 hours between last nap and bedtime!! She was so tired last night after being up for only 1 1/2 hours. This is what our day looked like:

6am Up for day
8:30 - 8:50 Nap 1 (daycare)
10:45 - 11:15 Nap 2 (daycare)
2pm - 5pm Nap 3 (home)
7pm Bottle/Asleep by 7:15


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## Noelle610

AmyS said:


> stephie_corin said:
> 
> 
> Oh I should say we started with a last wake time of around 3.5 - he gradually stretched this out himself. So if she's tired before 3.75 you might want to put her down a tiny bit earlier x
> 
> This scares me the most - 3.5 hours between last nap and bedtime!! She was so tired last night after being up for only 1 1/2 hours. This is what our day looked like:
> 
> 6am Up for day
> 8:30 - 8:50 Nap 1 (daycare)
> 10:45 - 11:15 Nap 2 (daycare)
> 2pm - 5pm Nap 3 (home)
> 7pm Bottle/Asleep by 7:15Click to expand...

She's tired out of habit. It can happen!

I'd try capping individual naps at 2 hours.. I'd end her final nap by 4pm :)


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## AmyS

Noelle610 said:


> She's tired out of habit. It can happen!
> 
> I'd try capping individual naps at 2 hours.. I'd end her final nap by 4pm :)

I will try that! She's going to be super mad at mommy. :haha:


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## stephie_corin

polaris said:


> Hi everyone.
> 
> Clara's sleep is back to being awful again after about a week of good nights (only 2 or 3 wakings). Last night she was up every hour or sometimes more often. She has just got her two top front teeth and still seems to be teething. So maybe I just need to wait it out for a week and see if she settles down again? But honestly it is just one thing after another with Clara, she seems to be constantly either unwell or teething. She is also back to wanting to be fed to sleep again although she does wake up slightly when I transfer her into the cot and settles back to sleep herself.
> 
> I don't really know what to do. I am due back in work next month (although I'm hoping to take a bit of extra unpaid leave) - as things stand there is no way that I would be able to function in work on so little sleep. I feel like I need to do something but I'm just lost about what is the best thing to do. I wouldn't mind doing sleep training involving crying if I was certain that it would work but she didn't really properly respond last time and there was an awful lot of crying - and I'm just not sure that I can put either of us through that again. She just slips back into bad sleep patterns so easily with any illness/teething/etc. so that even if sleep training worked, I worry that she would just relapse back again with the next tooth or cold. I am also wondering about going back to co-sleeping. We have practical difficulties in that all of the bedrooms are small and the layout is not perfect. Our bedroom is not ideal because it's not possible to put the bed against a wall due to the layout of wardrobes/windows/etc. and also OH would have to sleep elsewhere as the bed is not big enough for three of us. Clara is currently in the box room. There is a futon in there which I sleep on when she's very unsettled but the room isn't big enough to open the futon out when the cot is in there so it's not suitable for co-sleeping. I was actually considering moving the futon into my 3 year old's room and sleeping in there with Clara. Am I crazy for thinking about this? I would probably keep putting her in the cot for naps and bedtimes but then bring her in to sleep with me on the futon when she wakes after I've gone to bed. This is the only option that I can really think of for safe co-sleeping. I know my 3 year old would absolutely love the idea (actually he suggested it!) and actually that is holding me back a bit because it might not work out and then he'd be so disappointed.
> 
> Open to any suggestions!!! I feel so lost and don't know what direction to go with her sleep now. So should I:
> 1. Do nothing and just wait it out and see if her sleep settles down again (as it was actually getting better up until we went away last weekend)
> 2. Do some sleep training (would need to psych myself up)
> 3. Co-sleeping (but where?)
> Don't know what to do.

Polaris, could OH sleep on the futon for a few nights and you and Clara go in the big bed just to see if the cosleeping helps? If it does, then you could both move into Thomas' room and you would feel more confident that it wouldn't disappoint him.

If the cosleeping doesn't help in the longer term you could try sleep training but at least you gave cosleeping a shot (but as Noelle says, only if you want to).

Big hugs to you xxx


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## kettle28

Quick question? 

Am I putting down too soon? 

Rubbing eyes happens about 1hr 45 into awake time but yawns don't come til much later. Do I put down at eye rubs or yawns ?


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## seaweed eater

stephie_corin said:


> That is amazing SE!!!! Wow!! You are now the official baby sleep guru. I'm flying you to Dubai as a sleep consultant.

Bite your tongue! :) We'll see how tonight goes. And then there's the withdrawal part to be nervous about! I'm feeling a little more hopeful though. It might have just been a matter of hitting on the right thing.

Re: rocking, I'm sure you've heard/read before that naps are controlled by different systems from night sleep. So if you are working on rocking less at night then I agree with Noelle, keep doing what's working during the day. I've resigned myself to catnaps because there's just no reliable way to lengthen Munchkin's naps. :shrug: But then he does pretty well on catnaps when night sleep is in order, anyway.

*Amy,* I think you've gotten a lot of good advice. We went cold turkey on 2 naps (straight from 4) too because Munchkin just stopped going down for his usual naps. But it was not a fun or short transition. Almost all babies seem to do what Stephie said and adjust within a few days, but if that doesn't happen, don't get discouraged! Polaris is another mama on this thread with a kid who has struggled with nap transitions. But chances are you will be fine :thumbup:

But if you do get a catnap, I would agree with Noelle, keep the WTs the same and bring bedtime earlier (within reason). I also agree that it probably is not the time to tackle sleeping in the crib. Once you have a better routine in place with napping he will have a drive to sleep at the right times and it will be easier to make other changes.

I would definitely cap each nap at 2 hours and no naps after 4 PM if possible. Those are great general rules. If you're just not going to make it on the 4 PM rule -- like if the second nap ended at 1:30 or something -- it's ok to have a 20-30 minute catnap, but still try to make it as early as possible. IMO the last wake time is the most important one, so if you need to cut into the second to last one a bit to fit in a catnap, that's the better way to do it. But others might disagree. So with a 1:30 wakeup, for example, I would try to put down around 3:30-4. 

Your night definitely sounds better! :happydance: Of course Dad is fun...tell him to GET OUT! :lol: Mine gets the death glare if he's hovering at bedtime :rofl: of course, if he's helping, that's something else, just just standing there giving LO hope is not helpful.

To answer your question, what I've been doing for a few months now is nursing until LO falls asleep and then moving him right away, and not especially carefully, to his crib. So the transition always wakes him up. Last night, if he hadn't stopped nursing while awake, I was planning to sing to him for a minute before putting him down or something like that. When I've done that before to try to gradually shift nursing earlier (which didn't work), it made him mad, so I definitely think it would wake him up. But I think even just waking him up during the transition has helped a lot in preparing him to learn to self settle.

*NotNic*, so glad things are going better! :thumbup: It really is wonderful to have a happy and well rested kiddo!

*Vikki*, I agree, if the late bedtime made things worse then definitely take early mornings! Glad you are back to STTN. Hope you get later mornings soon though!

*Polaris*, so sorry you are struggling again this week :hugs: :hugs: I think Noelle gave you good advice regarding cosleeping -- if you don't think that's going to result in the best sleep for Clara, then I don't think it's a good solution even if it helps you cope with the situation in the short term.

I think you may have said a while ago that you were considering gradual withdrawal? And that it comforts Clara to have you next to her? Given how last night went (night 1 of gradual withdrawal), I'm thinking the checking last time was a disaster for Munchkin given his separation anxiety. Of course, we'll see how it goes when I'm no longer right next to him, but in theory his SS skills should be better by then. I could go on and on about the differences between night 1 this time and night 1 with checks, at least. Anyway, is that something you would consider trying?

Of course, I don't even know yet whether this will work better for us down the road, and even if it does, that doesn't mean it will work for you. But I do think Munchkin and Clara have some relevant similarities. If it's something you were thinking about trying anyway, I think it may be worthwhile.

*Kettle*, I think it depends on the baby, but if LO isn't fighting, then you're not putting down too soon. My LO sometimes rubs his face when he's hungry. He would never go to sleep if I tried putting him down just based on that, so I know it's not the right cue. Also, as a reality check, 1 hr 45 min WT sounds appropriate for your LO's age, so you are probably not too far off.


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## polaris

Thanks everyone.

OH has managed to figure out a way to just barely fit both the open futon and the cot into the box room by rearranging the other furniture - I didn't think they would both fit but they just about do, although the door of the room doesn't open fully! 

So I can put her to bed in the cot and then co-sleep with her on the futon for the second half of the night. As you say Steph, at least it will give me an idea as to whether cosleeping helps or not, i.e. are we both getting enough sleep or not. If she's still waking up constantly and awake for long stretches in the night then I will probably look into more sleep training. Seaweed, it's so encouraging to read about your success so far with gradual withdrawal, I do think this might possibly be a good approach for Clara. However I think I am going to try and get her through this period of teething before making any decisions about sleep training. Noelle, I think you have hit the nail on the head about being 110% consistent for a baby like Clara. This is why I need to psyche myself up and make sure I am fully committed before starting into anything - and I'm not sure that I'm fully committed at the moment. So I think my plan is that I'm going to try co-sleeping for a week and then reassess the situation.

Sorry I haven't been much use for answering other people's questions this week - we were away for a few days so there was lots to catch up on when I got back. I do appreciate the advice from others on this thread and I'll try and look back and respond to other people when I get the chance!!


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## Aimee4311

I accidentally skipped Josalyn's third nap today! We were so busy and have family visiting... We were at my moms house during her third nap time and she was fine, no meltdown, no fussiness. I'm guessing she may be ready to cut down to only two naps? :shrug: 

She fell asleep super easily tonight for her night sleep also. I think I may have to try this again!


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## seaweed eater

That sounds awesome, Aimee! :thumbup: I would say definitely worth trying!!

We had no crying at bedtime tonight. Zero!!! :shock: However, I am afraid I have made things too easy by nursing right before sleep. I took him off awake (he didn't come off on his own today) -- which he wouldn't have agreed to before, so it's progress, but still the nursing probably helped. So we're going to take a detour from withdrawing and start doing nursing earlier in the routine tomorrow. Eek! I am really nervous about that. Hopefully he is ready.


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## Aimee4311

Fingers crossed for you Seaweed! It seems like he's making progress though, so hopefully the change goes smoothly!


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## stephie_corin

Aimee definitely try two naps ... She sounds very ready for it! I'd also go cold turkey as she sounds like she can cope really well with a longer awake time.

SE, are you worried Munchkin is too sleepy when you put him down and he isn't learning to SS? How was the rest of the night (hold on, that's a stupid question - you probably don't know yet!! Damn time differences!). You're a brave woman! Good luck with your plan!!

Polaris, so glad you found a solution! Your DH sounds very handy :) good luck, I really hope this works for you guys and you don't need to go down the sleep training route, as I know that will be really tough for you. Although as SE says, Clara might be more responsive to a gradual removal type of training.

Kettle, that awake time sounds good! Just remember to keep extending waketimes as the weeks go on because (as Noelle mentioned) tiredness can be from habit and he may not naturally extend his naps.

As for us, C was wide awake for 1.15 hours after his last feed and bed time. I'm not going to overanalyse our current sleep as I'm certain there are some interesting developmental things going on. So I will wait a few days before I comment on any changes to our sleep pattern... Things are changing on a daily basis around here!!!


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## NotNic

Polaris - just a thought but rather than do co-sleeping how would she be if you just slept next to her on the floor? Could you reach to reassure her without getting up? That Bedtime Live program were very keen about having parents on a mattress on the floor next to the cot, so baby was reassured by your presence but they didn't rely on you physically for soothing. It was a gradual way according to those experts of supporting baby while they learnt to ss. Also I have to say I love how Thomas is your own in-house sleep consultant. So cute!


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## polaris

NotNic said:


> Polaris - just a thought but rather than do co-sleeping how would she be if you just slept next to her on the floor? Could you reach to reassure her without getting up? That Bedtime Live program were very keen about having parents on a mattress on the floor next to the cot, so baby was reassured by your presence but they didn't rely on you physically for soothing. It was a gradual way according to those experts of supporting baby while they learnt to ss. Also I have to say I love how Thomas is your own in-house sleep consultant. So cute!

This is what I have been trying really up until now, on the nights that she has been very unsettled I have been sleeping on the futon couch in the box room and soothing her when she wakes. The reason I was thinking of cosleeping was because it was just physically exhausting lifting her in and out of the cot so often and also I brought her into the bed one night while we were away and we both slept much better than usual. 

Last night was good. It took about an hour to go to sleep at bedtime and she actually seemed really undertired so I think she might need a longer wake time before bed? I have been doing four hours but she seems to need longer. Anyway she finally went to sleep at about 8.30 and slept until about 12 which was great! She was awake quite a while at that waking (maybe 45 minutes) and difficult to get settled. However after that I slept with her on the futon for the rest of the night and she stirred a couple of times and had a brief feed at about five but basically slept for the rest of the night until the alarm woke us at 7! I don't want to speak too soon but it was much much better than we have had recently.


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## MiniKiwi

Thought I'd update in here, Mia has sttn 7pm-6:30am 3 nights in a row :happydance: She wakes each night around 11:30/midnight and has a wee cry before resettling herself so I don't go up to her then.

I finally cracked and sleep trained her!!! Can't believe I'm happy about it either! I did CIO I guess but my own version which was just putting her in her cot and lying on the bed next to her pretending to sleep. She cried/yelled at me for 10 minutes the first night, 5 minutes the next night and last night didn't cry, just rolled over and went to sleep. Prior to this she was still waking 2-6 times and motn partying almost every night. I am praying to every god that this lasts, she seems to be happier the last few days as well :)


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## seaweed eater

Guess who STTN 8:45-6:15. I am not changing a darn thing tonight!!!!


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## AmyS

Last night was not such good sleep, as Chloe was up a lot again. But, I just started reading the Wonder Weeks, and realized we are in WW26 since her age is 25 weeks adjusted for being a preemie. That makes me feel not so bad about her sleep issues since I know there is a reason behind it.

Also, I do believe we are making some progress, since I was able to soothe her in her crib last night a few times, and I also heard her put herself back to sleep a couple of times. Still had the early morning waking at 4:30am, but I pulled her into bed with me. Hubby doesn't want to co-sleep, but he was up with the dogs by that time, so it was just the two of us!

Seaweed - It sounds like your little guy is adapting really well to your changes. I love reading your progress!


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## stephie_corin

SE I'm sooo happy for you! You can always work on moving the breastfeed back if and when you think it's necessary. But if it ain't broke... :) yay Munchkin!!!

Amy, when it was just the two of you how did she sleep? How are you going with naps? 

Polaris, that sounds so positive, I'm glad :) Thomas might get his room buddies after all!

MiniKiwi that's awesome and sounds like a really good approach to take to sleep training.

I hope all the good news continues!! X


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## seaweed eater

Polaris, really glad last night was better :hugs:

MiniKiwi, so encouraging to read about your progress!! :happydance: Especially since that's very similar to the approach we are taking now. Long may the STTN continue!

Amy, I'm sorry the night wasn't better, but I'm glad she was able to go back to sleep on her own. That's a really good sign. I hope things get better soon. :hugs:


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## Noelle610

MiniKiwi said:


> Thought I'd update in here, Mia has sttn 7pm-6:30am 3 nights in a row :happydance: She wakes each night around 11:30/midnight and has a wee cry before resettling herself so I don't go up to her then.
> 
> I finally cracked and sleep trained her!!! Can't believe I'm happy about it either! I did CIO I guess but my own version which was just putting her in her cot and lying on the bed next to her pretending to sleep. She cried/yelled at me for 10 minutes the first night, 5 minutes the next night and last night didn't cry, just rolled over and went to sleep. Prior to this she was still waking 2-6 times and motn partying almost every night. I am praying to every god that this lasts, she seems to be happier the last few days as well :)




seaweed eater said:


> Guess who STTN 8:45-6:15. I am not changing a darn thing tonight!!!!

:happydance::happydance::happydance::happydance::happydance:

Happy Friday girls! Long may it continue!

(MiniKiwi, sounds similar to what I did with Charlotte)


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## AmyS

Stephie - She slept ok in bed with me this morning. She moves a lot and smacks me in the face a lot. I can't say I slept at all! Her naps yesterday were pretty good though. She took a really good 90 minute nap in the morning and a 90 minute nap in the afternoon. Her last nap ended at 4:20, so she didn't go too far past the 4pm cut-off, but I wasn't there to wake her up.

Even though she was up quite a bit last night, I feel like she's making progress. Once when she woke up, I patted her tummy a couple of times, and she rolled to her side and babbled for a second, then rolled to her tummy and fell asleep - it just seemed so easy for her! I think tonight I will put her down immediately after her bottle while she's still kind of awake and see what she does.


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## MiniKiwi

Thanks girls :)

Night four and not a single tear here again, she's just gone to bed at 7pm so fingers crossed!

Fingers crossed for you too seaweed! I really hope it works out for us both :hugs:


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## bananaz

MiniKiwi said:


> Thanks girls :)
> 
> Night four and not a single tear here again, she's just gone to bed at 7pm so fingers crossed!
> 
> Fingers crossed for you too seaweed! I really hope it works out for us both :hugs:

That's so amazing!! Fingers crossed it continues.

It sounds like she was ready, honestly.


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## bananaz

seaweed eater said:


> Guess who STTN 8:45-6:15. I am not changing a darn thing tonight!!!!

Hooray!! :happydance: Always nice to see good news in this thread


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## stephie_corin

AmyS said:


> Stephie - She slept ok in bed with me this morning. She moves a lot and smacks me in the face a lot. I can't say I slept at all! Her naps yesterday were pretty good though. She took a really good 90 minute nap in the morning and a 90 minute nap in the afternoon. Her last nap ended at 4:20, so she didn't go too far past the 4pm cut-off, but I wasn't there to wake her up.
> 
> Even though she was up quite a bit last night, I feel like she's making progress. Once when she woke up, I patted her tummy a couple of times, and she rolled to her side and babbled for a second, then rolled to her tummy and fell asleep - it just seemed so easy for her! I think tonight I will put her down immediately after her bottle while she's still kind of awake and see what she does.

Ah you poor thing!! I think if you aren't used to sleeping right next to each other it can be a big adjustment! Some babies (and mummies!!!) just prefer their own space.

Her naps sound fantastic! Well done! And your progress is great! We have luck with the tummy rub too sometimes. Good luck for tonight xxx


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## polaris

Seaweed, Yay!!!! :happydance::happydance::happydance: So pleased to read about your progress and that this method is working so well for you! 

I am feeling so conflicted about this whole sleep thing at the moment. I think I am doing too much reading on both sides of the debate and I just can't balance things up for myself. 

So tonight I guess we sort of did pick up put down at bedtime because everytime I put her in the cot no matter how drowsy she seemed she just immediately stood up, she was fine for a few minutes chatting away happily but then started to cry, I picked her up and resettled her and put her back in the cot, same thing happened, and repeat and repeat. Eventually after about forty minutes of this she must have been too tired to stand up and she just wriggled about a bit and went to sleep. I do think maybe her bedtime is too early. She seems to need so much less sleep than DS did at the same age. I am aiming for a four hour wake time before bed but it is usually ending up closer to five hours. But is this not too long for a nine month old?

Her routine is usually:
7 a.m. Wake up (I usually have to wake her)
9.30 - 10.30/11 - Nap
2.30-3.30 - Nap
7.30 - Bedtime (but doesn't go to sleep until closer to 8.30)

Should I move bedtime later? I find it really hard to tell the difference between when she's undertired and when she's overtired!


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## seaweed eater

Amy, sounds like great progress on all fronts. I hope things are better for you with two naps. The tummy patting sounds like it is working really well! :thumbup:

Polaris, Munchkin often seems to want closer to 5 hours before bedtime. I know this often has to do with the car nap, but sometimes even with no car nap he won't go down earlier than that. I found that it wasn't doing much good to fight him at bedtime so now I just wait for his cues. He's generally a baby who does better with routine, but this has been working well, knock on wood. His bedtime is too late now but it's better than the tantrums we were having before (which were getting him so worked up that he was going to sleep at a later time anyway).

Thanks everyone for the support <3 I was just shocked. I really could not have imagined him STTN for months -- he's never even really been close. Need to find a way to move bedtime earlier now, because I don't think <10 hours is enough. Feel like this whole thing has taught me something about not fighting his natural preferences too hard, but I don't want to say anything at least until we have a few more good nights. :p


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## Noelle610

Polaris, I think at nine months I'd reduce the wake time before lengthening it. I think the recommended maximum awake time the chart I post frequently is about 4 hours - have you tried scaling it back to 3.5 or so? Sometimes overtired can look like undertired, because a baby gets a "second wind" and seems hyper, having difficulty settling.


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## polaris

Noelle610 said:


> Polaris, I think at nine months I'd reduce the wake time before lengthening it. I think the recommended maximum awake time the chart I post frequently is about 4 hours - have you tried scaling it back to 3.5 or so? Sometimes overtired can look like undertired, because a baby gets a "second wind" and seems hyper, having difficulty settling.

This is exactly what I would have thought myself but I just find it really hard to tell with Clara because she doesn't get cranky or erratic when she's tired, just a bit giggly. Like today for her second nap, she was definitely overtired because we had been out at the beach all morning and she was later than usual going down. So definitely overtired rather than undertired, but if I didn't know, I would have guessed she was undertired from the way she was acting. It was so much easier to tell with Thomas because he just got cranky and irritable even if he was also wired and wound up. So maybe bedtime is actually too late and I should cut the last wake-time back again. I was doing 3.5 for ages though and moved it to 4 hours because she didn't seem tired earlier. But now she still doesn't seem tired. Maybe she actually needs a much earlier bedtime. I'm sure Weissbluth would say I'm putting her to bed way too late. She is just an enigma with regard to her sleep!!

ETA - Seaweed, that's interesting that Munchkin often does closer to 5 hours before bedtime, it is obviously working for you since he's sleeping so much better now. My gut is telling me that 5 hours is too long for Clara though, even though she seems to be in great form!


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## NotNic

Polaris Finlay is the same as Clara. He will just keep going until he literally passes out! If there are enough distractions he will be hyper and happy and will keep going way past 9pm with only one nap. If he's not entertained though he can be a massive pain in the bum! On the upside we regularly take him out for dinner and drinks parties and he will sit with us and nibble on breadsticks and have a whale of a time. Our Spanish friends say he's a Mediterranean baby! :D Finlay's bedtime has pretty much been 7.30-8pm. He doesn't have to be asleep but we aim for him to be in the cot by 8pm. I would suggest trying 30mins of quiet time. I've said before how Finlay gets a bit energised before bed, and rather than do the constant pupd I have him downstairs and let him crawl about. If he's calm enough I read him a story or we just sit and cuddle watching one of the story times on TV or listen to nursery rhymes. Tonight we watched the Voice Uk and after watching 3 singers he was chilled out enough so I thought I'd try putting him down. He fell asleep within minutes! Also sometimes instead of pupd I just sit with my back to the cot and read a story. He normally sits down to see what I'm doing and watches the story through the cot bars. Easiest way ever to get him to sit down!!


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## Aimee4311

I'm thinking we're officially going to stick with 2 naps! Today was a success! 

9:00 wake up
12:30- 1st nap
1:45- wake up
4:30- 2nd nap
5:30- wake up
8:30- asleep for the night 

For both naps she fell asleep really easily, no fuss at all. Tonight she fussed maybe 10 minutes or so, then passed out. 

I think I'll like this routine! I feel like there's so much more freedom with only two naps!

Tomorrow I'm going to pay closer attention to her awake times so they're not so irratic. :)


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## seaweed eater

NotNic, I love all the little tricks you use when F is in his crib! Will have to steal the story reading idea once Munchkin is getting up.

Polaris, I think it would be better if Munchkin had an earlier bedtime. He only sleeps 9 or 10 hours most nights and usually is relatively grumpy until after his first nap. Optimally I think he needs about 11 hours at night. But we just can't seem to make an earlier bedtime work these days. His mood actually gets better and better throughout the day, and after dinner is his best time now. I don't know what that means about his daytime sleep! :shrug: But in any case, I would try earlier in case that works for Clara, because I don't think what we're doing is optimal, even though it seems to be the best we can do right now.

Aimee, so glad 2 naps worked well for you today! :thumbup: If you start having any trouble, I would move both naps 30-60 minutes earlier and keep the nights the same. The first WT seems long and the last one seems short relative to what I would expect for a 2 nap schedule. But as long as it's working, don't change a thing!

We had a little crying today at bedtime. Maybe 5 minutes. Not bad at all. Thinking of trying to settle without nursing if he wakes during the night tonight, since he's had two nights now without much (or any) milk. Scary thought :shock: we shall see!

Stephie, how are things? :hugs: Hope everyone else is doing well!


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## stephie_corin

Polaris, hugs ... We've got another one here who likes a 5 hour wake time before bed. Bedtime routine starts at 5.15 and he's asleep around 7... I'm sorry you are feeling so torn about sleep. Try not to overanalyse and just go with your instincts. Mummy instincts are rarely wrong.

Aimee, so glad 2 naps worked for you! I also love the freedom of 2 naps.

NotNic, love these suggestions!! C gets really wired before bed too.

SE, so funny - C is always grumpy in the morning and his mood just gets better as the day goes on too! I'm so happy he's now sleeping so well for you. I don't think it would be unreasonable at all to try settle him without nursing; he's shown he doesn't need it.

As for us... To be honest I'm just feeling lost. I'm so tired - I'm back to that 'I want to cry' tired. I feel a bit crazy when I post here because some days I'm so optimistic and others just feel so hopeless. I feel like I can't get it together. I just wish I could settle him easier. This last week nothing seems to work. It takes me so long to settle him when he wakes and he is waking crying rather than his usual moan. I don't know if its teething, developmental or what, but I can't nurse him back to sleep at night. He nurses down for each nap but at night I have to nurse, rock, hold then I try put him down when i think he's asleep and he cries again and the whole thing starts over.

Sorry for the brain dump. No idea what is going on with us. On the positive, naps have been great and he has actually been ss for naps and taking a 1.5 hour afternoon nap with no assistance from me. I do lie next to him but now he opens his eyes, takes a look around and goes back to sleep!


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## stephie_corin

So I just had breakfast with a girlfriend who showed me the two big bulges on the front of Cully's gums. I had no idea that the top teeth came in at the front of the gum... I've been looking in the roof of his mouth and seen no signs... So hopefully that is the cause of the waking and crying and difficulty settling we've had this week. He's also refused to eat anything these last two days so maybe teething is causing this too. Or maybe he is just the world's worst sleeper. Lol. Please let it be the former! X


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## seaweed eater

I chickened out on not nursing. Decided before I went to bed that I would nurse once if he woke up after 3...and he was up at 3:30 :haha: maybe tonight! Another amazingly good night though.

Stephie, I'm so sorry you guys are struggling. I know that lost feeling. :hugs: Has pain relief (if you've given any) made any difference? I hope those teeth come in soon. I feel a bit clueless for never being able to tell when Munchkin is about to get a tooth, but I honestly think he gets all the signs weeks or months in advance. It does seem like most babies show you when they are teething, though.

I'm glad you are getting good naps. Did you do anything in particular to encourage SS for those? I wonder whether the same thing would work during the night. It sounds like you have tried everything. :hugs: Are you managing to nap during C's naps during the day? Is there any way to get more help from DH?


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## stephie_corin

SE munchkin may be able to add psychic powers to his long list of skills :) what a great night, that's so fantastic.

I haven't given any pain relief as I'd seen no signs of teething until now. I didn't want to give pain relief just for bad sleep. I've got some homeopathic teething powders someone has given me to try. Has anyone used those before? If they don't make a difference I will give him a dose of iboprufen. 

I've done nothing differently for naps. Today he took a mind boggling one hour morning nap and two hour afternoon nap. I had to wake him from his afternoon nap!!! It's interesting how longer naps are affecting bedtime. It was 6pm yesterday and is 730 today based on same awake times.

Unfortunately poor DH is so busy at work. We aren't seeing a lot of him. But if these long naps continue I will definitely be napping with him!!

I hope everyone has a great night :) xxx


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## gaiagirl

Hey just checking in. No point updating on me, since we are still cutting teeth and its pretty bleak. lol.

Stephie we have a lot of evening settling issues too, one thing that often works is nursing to sleep lying IN my bed so I don't have to transfer him. Have you tried that?

I hope those teeth quickly cut for you...it has been so brutal here. He has now cut teeth #1 - 5 and 6/7 are close. Weirdly, 8 doesn't seem close...argh.

As for the homeopathics...I am not really a fan of homeopathy, since it's pretty much not backed by any evidence ever. LOL. The hylands and camilia stuff we have in Canada is a bit sketchy for me, because it's active ingredient is Bella Donna which is a HIGHLY toxic and fatal plant-based chemical. Granted, the amt in each dose is so ridiculously low its basicaly non-existent, but when FDA did random testing awhile ago there were inconsistent amounts in each tablet...which makes me uncomfortable. 

I am not huge on pharmaceuticals either, but TBH I would rather give something either a) completely and totally harmless like clove oil or a cold cloth or b) a drug that is heavily regulated and tested like Tylenol or Advil.

I have tried not to give medication every day during this bleak period. For ex, I gave it for a few nights in a row then none for 36 hours, then one dose, then none for 24. He sleeps much better on nights I do but I am just not comfortable with it day after day...

It is such a tough one because as a parent you take real liberties with making decisions for your child. Whether it is deciding that they dont get medication and have to deal with discomfort, or deciding that you are going to give them something that does have an impact on little developing organs...:nope:. It is a tough one.


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## polaris

Stephie, it definitely sounds like it could be the top teeth coming through. I actually didn't notice Clara's until they were through because I was also looking in the wrong place. You'd think I'd know since it's my second time around. Hopefully that is the explanation for the awful sleep and it will settle down soon.

Gaiagirl, I know exactly what you mean about it being such a responsibility to make the right decisions for your child. I have a real tendency to overthink things and you can really end up questioning everything. I don't feel comfortable giving medications just for poor sleep either, LOL, she would be having them every single night if that was the case! I probably end up under-medicating because I just don't like giving them. But Clara has definitely had more medications than Thomas had at the same age. But she has also been unwell much more often than he was and she also seems much more affected by teething and illness.

I tried putting Clara to bed at 7 p.m. this evening (shortening wake time to 3 hours). I wouldn't say that she settled easily but she was asleep by 7.30 which is a lot earlier than she's been asleep recently. Ideally I would love to do half an hour of quiet time in the room with her before settling her to sleep, but it's not really possible because I'm often here on my own and need to get Thomas to bed too. That's probably the main reason she ended up going to bed later because I could get him settled first and then have as much time as necessary to settle her. Feeding her to sleep lying down is the main thing that is working for us at the moment but it seems like such a backwards step because she was self-settling up until recently. She is not going to sleep easily at all at the moment. I am wondering if all her wake times are actually too long based on the chart that Noelle posted. I just seem to be questioning everything at the moment and I feel like I can't make any decisions at all, I change my mind several times a day about what the best thing is to do. Cosleeping is working really well during the night but it could be coincidence but since we started cosleeping her ability to settle for naps and bedtime seems to have gone to pot. She won't go in the cot at all now, whereas up until now she's been happy to go into the cot and I had no trouble at all with naps. Sometimes I feel like her sleep is affecting me too much and that I should just do sleep training with her and try to get it sorted. But I honestly don't know if I could face all the crying again. Anyway, I am going to leave things as they are for the week because we are going away next week for five days so there's not much point doing anything before that. Hopefully her settling issues for naps and bedtimes will settle down if I can just get her schedule right for her.


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## gaiagirl

Hugs Polaris xxxx I know exactly how you feel. We have gone back and forth on nursing to sleep in my bed and it always feels like a step backwards. My goal is for him to sleep in his crib for naps and evening and for awhile we had it and it was great! Now it's all so haywire and I have to just embrace the ups and downs or I will lose my mind.

Today is literally the worst.nap.day.ever. I don't even need to elaborate, I'm sure you all get it.


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## NotNic

I'm probably very different to a lot of you here about medication. I regularly give Finlay pain relief. Not for the sake of it but I would rather give him 2.5mls of nurofen then hear his pain cry. Sure in the beginning I felt very bad even about giving infacol, but Finlay is very expressive and I know when he really needs it. A big thing for me was finding a nursery happy to give pain medication. My sister was under Great Ormond St Hospital for her whole childhood though, so I know how mild children's pain medication is in comparison to hospital pain relief, so I have less concerns about him having it, then other parents might be. We do use teething granules. Though more so when he was smaller. It works best for him when he is in a huge tizz. It just calms him down so much. Around 5 mths he'd pass out afterwards. It was like he was thinking 'Finally Mummy! I've been telling you for ages I needed something!' :)

For those who have regular sttn's, can I ask how do you do it? We get a few then have a few shockers. We hardly have rows at bedtime, when he wakes he normally settles very quickly with minimal help and he's a good self-soother when he goes to sleep. He has all the skills yet still is hit and miss. Even the earlyish starts are manageable now. They work well with our lifestyle especially now I have to be up for work before 6am. I'm wondering if we should have tried CIO when he was younger but it never seemed bad enough for formal sleep training (even when I was dead on my feet!!). Sleep training still feels a bit like cracking a nut with a mallet!


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## seaweed eater

Stephie, the naps sound great!! :thumbup: I think it is a promising sign that he's learned to SS and sleep longer stretches during naps. I know naps are different from nighttime but I bet it means he can learn to do the same thing at night somehow. I hope you do get a nap in soon! I find that can make such a difference. :hugs:

I know what you mean about not wanting to give pain relief for bad sleep :( it's so hard to know. Munchkin has certainly had ibuprofen on days when I know in retrospect that he was not teething, and I don't feel great about that. But I just try to balance the concern for his comfort with the concern for his organs and then go with my gut? I know, that's very vague! I'm with Gaia on the homeopathic stuff though. My understanding is that there's not good evidence for it, and it makes me a bit uncomfortable, so we've never used any.

Hang in there. I hope you see better nights or at least teeth soon. Hope bedtime tonight went well. Is he still struggling at bedtime?

Gaia, how frustrating that tooth #8 does not seem close! I wish so much you could just have a break from teething!! :dohh: Maybe you will anyway. FWIW, I've had two pediatricians independently tell me that they think Advil is safe at the recommended dose for up to 7 nights in a row. :shrug: I can totally understand why you would still be uncomfortable with that, though. I am sorry you had such rough naps today, I really hope things get better soon :hugs: can you get any help from DH or anyone else?

Polaris, I'm so sorry you are having that feeling of questioning everything, that's a tough place to be. :hugs: It sounds wise to put things off until after you're back from your trip (where are you going?). Are you able to lie down with her during naps, or whatever she needs -- or do you need her in the cot? I have found it difficult sometimes to maintain very many rules or limits without being willing to sleep train. It's like I need it to be one or the other, you know what I mean? So when we were in WIO mode my approach was to try to accept everything and not struggle or fight too hard. Make things better, yes, but not fight. I don't know whether you're in a position to do that this week -- or whether you think that would even be helpful? I know how much easier said than done it is when you don't even feel like you have a basic routine in place. :hugs: I just think it can be so demanding to try to control everything through scheduling and routines alone, and for a mom who is as caring as you are, and who has such high standards for herself as you do, it can really become all-consuming.

When was it that you sleep trained last time? It was a few months ago, or more, right? And you did CC? How long did you do it for and how much was she still crying? :hugs: Just curious.



NotNic said:


> We do use teething granules. Though more so when he was smaller. It works best for him when he is in a huge tizz. It just calms him down so much. Around 5 mths he'd pass out afterwards. It was like he was thinking 'Finally Mummy! I've been telling you for ages I needed something!' :)

:) This made me think of a story a woman in my baby group told us about her older child...that it felt like such a miracle when one night her daughter said "Mommy...ear hurts." Because just like that, she didn't need to guess at what was wrong! Poor babies...it will be so much better for us and especially for them when they can just tell us!

To your question about STTN, I'm sure there are babies who just do that once they start being able to STTN -- maybe it has to do with having a regular temperament. But, also, many parents who like a lot of structure and regularity around nighttime sleep basically do CIO/ignoring on an ongoing basis. Like, if wake up time is 6 AM, they do not go into their baby's room between bedtime and 6 AM, ever. I don't know how you are dealing with Finlay's NWs and early mornings but based on what you said about CIO I assume you're not ignoring him. I would think that most babies experiencing those kinds of rules would eventually learn that it didn't do them any good to complain at night or be up early. You may not be comfortable with that, though.


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## seaweed eater

I also wanted to note that I've started doing the same thing at naps as during the night (nursing until relaxed but not asleep and then sitting by the crib until asleep) and we're getting much longer naps. Every day we've had at least one 75+ minute one. :thumbup:

I guess it's basically the Bananaz system, except for some reason we needed to go through one night of crying to get there!

I know, I'm owed the BnB curse in a big way. I just wanted to update since I know at least a couple of you might be considering a similar form of sleep training.

I do think it would be interesting to try to remove nursing from the routine. I've realized that in my own mind I too have a bit of a nursing to sleep association! (on his behalf, of course -- not my nursing or my sleep.) I just can't imagine him going to sleep without it. But I'm sure he'd be able to learn how now that he's getting better at going down awake. That's something to explore later, though. For now, in the words of Pitbull et al, I just wanna feel this moment. :)


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## stephie_corin

Gaia, I'm so sorry naps are horrid today. You sound like you are in a similar place to me at the moment, but you seem so much more sane and relaxed about it all. You're an amazing example of grace under pressure. I need to take a leaf from your book and remember this isn't forever. We take a similar approach to pain meds as you. I ty not to give it on more than 2-3 consecutive nights. You're right, it is such a difficult decision though. As Notnic says, hearing them cry in pain is tough.

Polaris, big hugs to you my friend. I find bedtime hard solo with just one child. You're doing so well! I love that chart for when C was younger but I found it hasn't worked since he dropped to two naps - for example, he's meant to get 14 hours sleep each 24 but the maximum awake time only allows for 8.25 hours awake. It does say some babies need more or less sleep give or take half an hour so maybe that is where you can make up the extra. His awake time is creeping up too high again though, so maybe like you it's time for us to scale back his awake times. I think I'll try that today. I'm pretty sure Noelle said the middle awake time can be a bit longer but the last awake time is most important to ensure no over tiredness. 

Noelle, if you are around, if Cs maximum awake time is 3.15 (based on an extra half hour) does this mean we should start wind down around 2.5 hours awake? I nurse to sleep so I guess I should start nursing around the 3 hour mark?

Polaris, I'm so sorry you feel like you are taking a backwards step with the nursing to sleep. Sometimes it is just about survival and ensuring everyone is getting enough sleep. Like you say, you can worry about things like this when you get back from your break. Good luck hon.

NotNic, I can't help with your STTN question but thanks for your perspective on pain medication. I'm sorry to hear about your sister.

As for us, we had an averagely terrible night (wakeups at least every hour) but for the first part of the night when the iboprufen was working he was so much easier to settle.

Big hugs all around, it sounds like a few of us are struggling at the moment!! X


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## stephie_corin

SE, cross posts!

He finally fell asleep at 8pm and up at 6am... Not enough night sleep I'm sure but I'm going to try and shorten Culver's awake times.

Wow, munchkin the King of Catnaps took a long nap?!? Amazing!!! You must be so pleased! How are you handling naps at daycare? Does he nap there or do all naps at home? 

I'm so tempted to try something like what you've done: maybe a modified version where I lie with him and rub his tummy but don't pick him up... I've tried this before though (a week or two ago) and he cried / played for 1.5 hours before I gave in and rocked him, so I'm not sure it would work for us. The tummy rub seems to work for early night wakings but not bedtime.

Anyway, glad munchkin is still sleeping well :)

Edit: things really are changing on a daily basis here. Long naps have gone back to cat naps today! Ha! I give up ;)


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## polaris

Thank you so much ladies, really good advice as always.

Seaweed, I think you are so right that I just need to stop struggling for a bit and just be one or the other. In other words, accept that I am not ready to do sleep training at the moment so just do whatever works to some extent. I think part of the reason I am struggling so much is that I have my 3 year old to look after too and I can't just leave him for long stretches during the day. So it really puts pressure on me to find a way to get her settled reasonably quickly, especially for naps. 

Cosleeping is actually working out really well at the moment and she is sleeping so much better at night and so am I. She still wakes up but resettles very easily often without a feed - or sometimes she has a quick feed and then rolls over and self-settles! I am feeling so much better this morning after a good night's sleep - if I can get a week of good sleep I think I will feel so much better so I definitely feel this is the right decision for us at the moment. The only issue is that she seems to be developing a real aversion for the cot. But I think I'm just going to go with the flow on that too. If she needs to feed to sleep on the futon for all her naps and nap on the futon, it's not the end of the world. I don't think much can happen to her; the open futon and the cot basically take up all the floor space in the room so there's nowhere she can really go! And if she does manage to fall off the bottom end of the futon (the only open side) it's only a foot off the ground so I don't think she can really hurt herself. Gaia - I am the same, I would love her to sleep in the cot for naps and early evening, but if it's not happening I think maybe I just have to go with whatever works for now.

Stephie - great news about the longer naps yesterday even if they have gone back to catnaps today. :dohh: These babies like to keep us on our toes. Regarding the gradual withdrawal, you never know, Cully is a bit older now so maybe he might actually go to sleep with this approach now? I would like to do something like this with Clara after seeing seaweed's success, but she just stands up in the cot immediately so I just can't see how it would work. She's not going to go to sleep standing up! I guess I could keep lying her down but she just stands straight back up again and usually starts getting upset and I end up nursing her again.

Notnic, in my experience with DS consistent STTN didn't happen until over a year even though he started sleeping through at 9.5 months. Obviously the age will vary depending on the baby, but it does happen when they are older, honest!

Seaweed, I know that I have a bit of a nurse-sleep association, LOL. I think I've said this before but for me part of the problem is that I really enjoy bedtime feeds, they are my favourite feed of the day. The bedtime feed was also the last feed that Thomas held on to after he dropped his other feeds and I think I'm just really reluctant to move it completely out of the bedtime routine. I guess I feel they are only nursing for such a short time really and then it's finished. So I guess I want to enjoy my sleepy bedtime feeds while I can!

Gaia, sorry about the worst nap day ever. I hate those days!!! I agree with Steph, you always sound so calm and accepting, I really need to adopt more of your attitude!

Seaweed, you asked about the last time we did CC. Clara was just turning 7 months so it was just over two months ago. We did it religiously for 10 days and lengthened the intervals etc. She cried an awful lot for the first two nights, then she had a couple of better nights, then a couple more awful nights, and after that it gradually improved. The first night she barely slept at all, it was really very traumatic for both of us. Having said that her sleep really did improve dramatically. She went from waking every hour and refusing to go back in the cot to sleeping much longer stretches and only one or two night feeds. Her naps lengthened straight away as well. The problem was that she was still crying at bedtime, not every night but sometimes for 20 to 30 minutes, and also she still woke up briefly quite a lot during the night, crying for 5 minutes and then going back to sleep before the first check. I just felt that 10 days was long enough for both of us, I wasn't willing to let her cry indefinitely and I hoped that the improvements in her sleep would stick. Which they did to some extent until she got the chicken pox really I guess. I don't think her sleep has really recovered from that. I guess my concern is that if she's going to relapse with every episode of illness or teething, what's the point in going through all that crying in the first place?


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## Noelle610

Stephanie, to answer your question... Yes, I would start winding down and aim to have baby asleep at the optimal wake time. It's hard to factor in everything, but I make a good attempt :haha: Lately C has been fighting bedtime because she's at the age where she realizes it's more fun to be awake than asleep, so I'm working on starting a little earlier.

On STTN, I've been thinking about this discussion. I certainly think sleep training helps, but on a whole I really and truly believe it's mostly and age/temperament thing. For us, we saw a vast improvement when reflux subsided, which makes sense. I also think my daughter just "learned" to sleep. I think we make the mistake of thinking we have way more control over sleep than we do. I've had days where I've done all of the right things - great naps, lots of stimulation, great eating - and C still sleeps poorly. And I've had days where we've done all of the "wrong" things and she sleeps great. I think much of it is up to the baby's personality. I think that's good to hear, because it ensures you you're not doing anything wrong, but I think it's hard to hear too because you have to relinquish some control. Does that make sense?


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## gaiagirl

Thanks Ladies, actually DH did two naps for the first time ever yesterday which probably contributed to craziness. It's nice to know he CAN get baby to sleep for naps but he couldn't transfer him without waking him so the naps were all broken up and short. It could have just been a coincidence with teething too...

I ended up holding him for 1.5hrs on the couch because we had a dinner to go to and I wanted him rested!

Stephie he slept 8-6 too! Lol, our LOs are so similar :)


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## gaiagirl

Stephie if you look back to when I joined this thread, I did not feel this way! I was beyond stressed and analyzing everything and felt huge pressure (friends, family, general societal expectations) to get him sttn because somehow I kinda felt like his sleep was a reflection of my abilities as a parent. But through seeing all these amazing Mommas struggling and also a Wait It Out support group I am in on FB (it's amazing if you are interested PM me) I started to realize that actually, this is normal. And it's OK to do what works for us now and I am NOT ruining him forever and he will eventually learn to sleep independently :)

It was a huge weight off of me to accept these things, because I know that sleep training is not for me or us, and so really waiting is all I can do. There's a real peace that comes with that! For me, anyways :)

Disclaimer: this does not mean I don't have frustrated, exhausted, soul sucking nights that I need to rant and vent about! I definitely do! Lol


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## stephie_corin

Thanks Gaia, this is exactly what I needed to hear tonight.:hugs:


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## AmyS

Been doing lots of reading on this thread over this sleepless weekend! Thank goodness I can catch up on some sleep with the hubby home. 

So far, our last 2 nights have looked like this:

Asleep by 7pm, and I usually have to resettle her once or twice before 9. Then, she sleeps until 12:30am. I feed her, but when I try to put her back down, she wakes right back up. It's been taking me anywhere from 1-2 hours to get her back down. She likes sleeping on her tummy, but as soon as she rolls onto her tummy, she wakes up and starts crying. I need to figure out how to gracefully put her down on her tummy. I haven't figured that out yet. Then, she is back up at 4:30 or 5, so I laid with her in bed one morning until 6 and rocked her this morning to keep her asleep. 

The one good moment from last night: I had picked her up because she was crying, and she was pushing against me and crying out, so I put her back down. She started rolling back and forth between her side and her tummy, intermittently crying out, but she settled herself back to sleep that way! I was so proud!!! But then she woke up 10 minutes later screaming again. 

seaweed - I understand the "nursing to sleep" association for yourself! I think I would miss that part of our night too much to give it up right now. It's the sweetest moment. And since things are going so well right now....?? I wouldn't mess with it!

stephie - Cat naps again, huh? I've decided not to even worry too much about naps at the moment. As long as she isn't napping too much during the day and too close to bedtime, I'll let her be. 

gaiagirl - That sounds like a good support group! I just recently started reading the Wonder Weeks, and I'm definitely in the Wait It Out mindset now. Realizing that she's right in the middle of ww26 makes me more tolerant of this sleep deprivation experiment that she's trying out on me. She's proven to me more than once that she can self settle on her own, so I'm going to give her time to get through this developmental stuff and see where we end up! 

Noelle - I agree with you - it all depends on the baby! My LO must have gotten her daddy's personality because I am laid back and love to sleep haha!


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## polaris

Amy, just in case it helps, the way that I used to put Clara down on her tummy when she used to go in the cot - I would feed her until her eyes closed and she went floppy, then I would lift her up onto my shoulder with her tummy to my chest. If she started kicking then I would nurse her some more, but if she stayed relaxed I would hold her like that for a couple of minutes and from that position I found it reasonably easy to pop her into the cot on her tummy without disturbing her, with my right arm supporting her chest and my left arm supporting her legs and then just ease my arms out.


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## polaris

We've had a good day today. I've reduced wake-times slightly and am trying to give her a longer wind-down time before naps and bedtimes. I've also given up on getting her to sleep in the cot because she just seems to hate it all of a sudden. So she is sleeping on the futon for naps and nighttimes now. It really seems to be working well. I am feeding her lying down so I can just detach her when she falls asleep without having to move her. However, the last couple of sleeps, she has actually detached herself, rolled onto her tummy and gone off to sleep herself! She was always good at self-settling so I'm really pleased that she hasn't completely forgotten how to do it! I'm also feeling so much more relaxed about the whole situation today and just more accepting that this is where we are at for the moment and actually enjoying the little things again, like waking up beside her in the morning and sleepily feeding her during the night. I have also discovered that she moves around a lot during the night - I think she must have been waking herself up a lot bumping into the cot sides.

Also, I don't know if I mentioned my guilt feelings about co-sleeping with Clara while my 3 year old slept on his own. Recently he has been talking a lot about not wanting to sleep on his own and I was really trying to figure out a way for him not to feel excluded. Well - he has come up with his own solution! Last night he told me that he was going to sleep with daddy in the big bed and I could sleep with Clara on the futon. So nobody has to sleep on their own! I am so pleased, it honestly makes me feel much better about co-sleeping with Clara that he isn't on his own at night. It might not be for everyone but it seems like a good solution for us for the moment. Then when Clara is old enough, the two of them can share a room and me and OH can go back to sharing a room again!


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## AmyS

polaris said:


> Amy, just in case it helps, the way that I used to put Clara down on her tummy when she used to go in the cot - I would feed her until her eyes closed and she went floppy, then I would lift her up onto my shoulder with her tummy to my chest. If she started kicking then I would nurse her some more, but if she stayed relaxed I would hold her like that for a couple of minutes and from that position I found it reasonably easy to pop her into the cot on her tummy without disturbing her, with my right arm supporting her chest and my left arm supporting her legs and then just ease my arms out.

I get what you're saying! I will try that tonight! I hope this helps a little, she makes it hard to fall asleep when all I do is wait for her to roll over! :wacko:

And that's a great plan your son came up with! I would have been feeling the guilt too, but it sounds like this will be a really good solution for now!


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## NotNic

Thanks Stephie. My sister was a premmie with a whole heap of problems but she's doing great now. They don't know how or why she works but she does! :) 

Thanks for all your advice on the consistent STTN. He's just turned one, so I think I might continue to WIO. I suppose I could let him cry, but part of me knows that if I did that he has the willpower to make it a battle. Colic babies are persistent!:) When he settles so quickly it seems churlish to let him cry. It could easily backfire on us. Plus he tends to cry in his sleep. If left he may well wake himself up properly and end up with MOTN parties which could have been prevented. Does that make me a chicken? :blush: I suppose I could set myself an age goal. At the moment I optimistically say I will see you in the morning. Perhaps when he has a better understanding I can tell him that mummy won't be in until it's time to get up. :shrug: Until then I think I might just try to be stronger about not going in until the pitch of the cry changes. 

I have started to get a little stricter about morning times of a weekend though. Today he woke at 6am and I managed to pretend it was nighttime and he went back to sleep until 7am and then I let him talk to the cats for another 25mins. Every mum I speak to who has a baby who sleeps well past 7am tell me that they never go into their child's bed before that time even if their los are awake. I'm beginning to think that if their babies were allowed to have been an early riser, then they would be iykwim. Obviously some babies are programmed to be early birds, but I'm beginning to think that for a good chunk of them it becomes learned behaviour, rather than their personalities. A lot have phases of being awake early, but if they weren't encouraged to get up then it passes quick. I was just so flipping grateful that he slept 'well' that I took 5.30am. :dohh: However I won't beat myself up too much. He is the personality double of my sister (my other one!) and she could regularly go out clubbing, get in at 4am and be up the stables by 7am mucking out the horses. I strongly suspect he is just an early bird at heart. :)


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## seaweed eater

Bedtime tonight was just awful, nearly an hour of screaming, by far the worst this week :cry:

I put him down earlier than usual because he was acting sleepy. I'm hoping it's just that he was undertired, or teeth. It's the right time for an extinction burst but this would be quite a burst. I just feel like a horrible person and a horrible parent. It feels warped to tell myself that sitting next to him and avoiding eye contact while he cries himself hoarse is for his own good, even though I really think it is. If it's not a one-off, STTN or no STTN, I'm not going to do this for longer than a week. :(

Working on a response to the rest of you. Hope you are all well tonight/today :hugs:


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## seaweed eater

Gaia, I have definitely noticed a shift in how you seem to be thinking about things! I think it's awesome! :thumbup: Even on this thread where everyone is so supportive, I think there's always pressure to work on things and make progress all the time, and it's good to remember that it's also ok to embrace the craziness.

Stephie, up every hour is killer :sleep: I'm so sorry! I hope last night was better!! Any teeth yet?

1.5 hours is a LONG time to lie next to a tired baby who wants to be rocked! I don't blame you for giving in. And yeah, I'm really pleased about the naps. I sort of thought the day would never come! He's back to 2+ hours of daytime sleep, which is really good. On Friday he had 2.5! :shock: On weekdays he takes his morning nap at home and his afternoon nap at daycare, where I'm honestly not sure how they manage to get him down, but they have some magic that none of us have been able to replicate at home. I do find that he ends up adding an hour or so to his middle WT compared to what he would do at home, so maybe he's just more tired.

Polaris, I'm glad you've gotten some more rest and things are going better. I really hope you continue to have a restful week. :hugs: Glad to hear you have stopped trying the cot, too. I think that sounds wise right now. It sounds like you're not prepared to win that fight at all costs right now, so better not to fight at all IMO. And glad you found a bedsharing solution that works for everyone! :thumbup:

I've been thinking all day about how to respond to you about sleep training. I think what this week's experience has taught me (even with tonight being like the old days) is that things CAN be different the second time if you're lucky enough to get the timing and the method right. Munchkin's temperament hasn't changed at all. He was super persistent before our last attempt at sleep training, and he obviously still is. But for whatever reason he seems to have somehow managed to see this time around, at least up until tonight, as an opportunity to learn something new (or something like that?) rather than as something to fight us on. Again, with tonight being the one exception so far, it's always seemed like he's fallen asleep because he's tried to fall asleep, not because he's just run out of energy to fight -- which is so so heartening. I don't think there's any way I could have known in advance that this would happen; it really was just luck. I wouldn't feel right encouraging you to try again, because I don't know how you would predict whether it would go better this time. I know how much it hurts to see them cry so much, and I think you are right that you need to be prepared for that if you try again. But, even if you, like me, have built up a narrative about why it failed last time because of the way your LO is, and none of that has changed, I guess I would just say that things can still be different. And I'm going to stick by this, based on the past three days and nights, even if our situation ends up going completely downhill and we quit and never try sleep training again...if that happens you can blame me for trying to put LO down too early tonight and ruining everything forever. :haha:

Regarding pulling up in the crib, the Sleep Lady says to not lay them back down but just pat the mattress and encourage them verbally and wait. I don't know whether that sounds feasible at all.

Amy, I'm sorry you are having the tummy rolling/crying issue. We went through that briefly. I think it was only a few days IIRC, but my sense of time is a little blurry! Anyway, I hope your LO grows out of it soon. Have you (you probably have) tried patting or rubbing her back once she rolls? That almost worked once with mine, and he hates being patted at all.

NN, I don't think you are a chicken to want to WIO. It sounds like he is happy and generally sleeping well, and if things are working then there's no reason you should feel obligated to change them! You seem to know him and understand his patterns well, so I'm sure you can trust your instincts.


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## rmsh1

This looks like a thread with a lot of experience I could do with....

I have scared myself by reading books telling me how my baby should be sleeping. She is almost 12 weeks old, and about three weeks ago just suddenly gave up her 5-6 blocks of sleep at night. I have no idea why and I can't seem to get them back. She wakes something like 3hrs, 2.5hrs, 2hrs - getting shorter til she gets up. She seems to prefer going to bed at 9.30pm, thought i am trying to get her to bed earlier than that by starting a bed time routine. The breaks in sleep are starting to get to me now, just building up slowly. I have asked many of my friends that are parents, most tell me I need proper schedules during the day too. This is hard as Emma gets up at different times each day. I cannot predict when she will have her day time naps, it changes every day.

Basically I am feeling at a loss right now :wacko:


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## polaris

Seaweed, I'm so sorry you had such an awful bedtime last night. I really hope it was a once off or that Munchkin was just undertired. I do find that Clara will often not fall asleep if I try to put her down earlier than expected, even if she seems tired. Fingers crossed for a better night tomorrow. Thank you so much for your thoughts about sleep training. It really does help to get your perspective. I am definitely not ruling out the idea if necessary in the future, if it reaches a point where the current situation really doesn't seem sustainable.

rmsh - welcome to the thread. Honestly I think what you are describing sounds very normal for your LO's age. I wouldn't stress too much about the early bedtime yet, 9.30 is a good bedtime for a 12 week old baby in my opinion, it will naturally move earlier with time. Just watch out for her getting tired earlier in the evening so that you don't leave her bedtime too late for too long. I also wouldn't worry about the daytime routine being inconsistent. Neither of mine have settled into any sort of consistent daytime routine until about 6 or 7 months. At this age I would just go by wake times. How long after she wakes are you putting her down for a nap? Also, how she is sleeping now really doesn't predict how she will sleep in a few months time. My first slept absolutely terrible at 12 weeks but his sleep improved dramatically at four months and although it remained up and down for the first year he was generally a reasonably good sleeper after the first four months. My second slept really well at 12 weeks but things went seriously downhill at four months and I have been a constant visitor to this thread for months. So there's just no way of knowing yet! Try not to worry too much about what other people's babies are doing, she's so young at the moment, everything can change so much.


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## stephie_corin

Amy, I feel for you. That sounds so tough. We've had a few nights like that with LO up for hours and thankfully they haven't lasted long. I hope she starts sleeping a bit better soon. I think you said you are sleeping in her room? Can you take the side off the crib and push your mattress against the cot? You might be able to get a little more sleep if you can pat her or rub her back from a lying down position as soon as she stirs. When C was in his cot I'm sure the act of picking him up woke him even more and made it harder to settle him.

Polaris, I'm so glad the cosleeping is working out! And very cute that Thomas and daddy are now sharing :)

Notnic, your sister sounds like a fighter ! The other one sounds slightly insane ;) I agree the early wakings are a learnt behaviour. Some of us are naturally early risers or morning people but I don't knows many adults who would naturally wake at 5am. Cully is an early bird too and I rock him back to sleep at 430, 515 and finally at 6 I let him get up, although its a constant battle! Good luck with getting Finlay to nap longer.

SE, I'm sorry the evening was so tough. I hope the rest of the week improves for you. I don't have any advice on the sleep training but I'm sure the others will give you some wise words of wisdom. Hang in there my friend.

Gaia, my DH hasn't put Culver down for months because he nurses to sleep for every nap. I don't think he'd have much luck though! Good on your DH for trying, things can only get better, right?

Still no sign of teeth for us! I tried shortening his awake times and he was having none of it. We did 2.75, 3.25 and were aiming for 3.25 again but his last awake time ended up being closer to 4.45 even with wind down starting at 2.5! He is a stubborn monkey that's for sure.


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## stephie_corin

rmsh1 said:


> This looks like a thread with a lot of experience I could do with....
> 
> I have scared myself by reading books telling me how my baby should be sleeping. She is almost 12 weeks old, and about three weeks ago just suddenly gave up her 5-6 blocks of sleep at night. I have no idea why and I can't seem to get them back. She wakes something like 3hrs, 2.5hrs, 2hrs - getting shorter til she gets up. She seems to prefer going to bed at 9.30pm, thought i am trying to get her to bed earlier than that by starting a bed time routine. The breaks in sleep are starting to get to me now, just building up slowly. I have asked many of my friends that are parents, most tell me I need proper schedules during the day too. This is hard as Emma gets up at different times each day. I cannot predict when she will have her day time naps, it changes every day.
> 
> Basically I am feeling at a loss right now :wacko:

Hi rmsh, and welcome. I agree, LO is very young and this sounds reasonably common for her age. I would start by waking her at the same time every morning. Pick a time that suits your family (say, 7am) and from there you should get an idea of her natural napping patterns. Although expect things to change quickly as the weeks go by!

Do you nap during the day when LO is sleeping to catch up on sleep? 

Hugs to you xxx

Edit - let us know how you approach naps, night wakings, how much day sleep LO is getting?


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## rmsh1

polaris said:


> rmsh - welcome to the thread. Honestly I think what you are describing sounds very normal for your LO's age. I wouldn't stress too much about the early bedtime yet, 9.30 is a good bedtime for a 12 week old baby in my opinion, it will naturally move earlier with time. Just watch out for her getting tired earlier in the evening so that you don't leave her bedtime too late for too long. I also wouldn't worry about the daytime routine being inconsistent. Neither of mine have settled into any sort of consistent daytime routine until about 6 or 7 months. At this age I would just go by wake times. How long after she wakes are you putting her down for a nap? Also, how she is sleeping now really doesn't predict how she will sleep in a few months time. My first slept absolutely terrible at 12 weeks but his sleep improved dramatically at four months and although it remained up and down for the first year he was generally a reasonably good sleeper after the first four months. My second slept really well at 12 weeks but things went seriously downhill at four months and I have been a constant visitor to this thread for months. So there's just no way of knowing yet! Try not to worry too much about what other people's babies are doing, she's so young at the moment, everything can change so much.

She is awake until she shows me signs of needing sleep. Some mornings she might be awake two hours after she first wakes, but normally it is just over an hour before she shows signs and I put her down. I still have to rock her cot gently most times she goes down for a day time nap, but not always.

At night, she is normally asleep by 9.30pm. Tonight I have her down at 8.30pm. The earliest she has even gotten up is 7am, but this is variable too. Sometimes I try to keep her awake when she wakes at this time, other times there is just no keeping her awake. She wakes at last three times every night, sometimes 4 times, and she feeds at every waking. Sometimes her feeds are only one or two minutes long, but mostly she has good 5 minute feeds every time she wakes (she is an efficient feeder, 5 minutes feeding seems to fill her most times).

I have been changing her nappy at her approximate 5am wake time as her nappy is full then, but maybe I should leave it completely til she wakes up? She goes back to sleep fine after I do this. 




stephie_corin said:


> Hi rmsh, and welcome. I agree, LO is very young and this sounds reasonably common for her age. I would start by waking her at the same time every morning. Pick a time that suits your family (say, 7am) and from there you should get an idea of her natural napping patterns. Although expect things to change quickly as the weeks go by!
> 
> Do you nap during the day when LO is sleeping to catch up on sleep?
> 
> Hugs to you xxx
> 
> Edit - let us know how you approach naps, night wakings, how much day sleep LO is getting?

7am is a good time to get her up, although I am tired when I get up. I try to get her up then but some mornings there is just no keeping her awake. I tend to get up and have a shower and breakfast if she goes back to sleep. 

I do not nap during the day, have not been able to since she was born. I used to love a day time nap, but now I just cannot turn off. 

Day time naps occur only when Emma gives me sleepy signs. I swaddle her (only during the day now, I do not do this at night anymore as it was not helping her sleep any longer), put on some relaxing music and if I caught her at just the right time, she goes to sleep with no interference, but I normally have to rock the cot a little each time she makes a little cry. She sleeps at least an hour most naps. When she wakes I feed her, never longer than 3 hours between day time feeds. Then she gets burped, nappy change, tummy time and play time, until she shows sleepy signs again. Sometimes this is two hours but mostly just over an hour. Then back for a nap.

Night time wakings, I simply pick her up (she is in our room as we only have a one bed place until I return to work), we have a dim night light so no lights go on. I feed her then straight back to bed. Once her sucking slows I take her off my boob so she does not suckle completely to sleep, but really she is barely awake. I do not speak to her or interact with her at all, other than give her a boob.

So day sleeps, she gets over 4 hours normally. So I would guess at night she gets between 10-12 hours, and day time at least 4 hours. Today she had heaps of day time sleep, I could not keep her awake. She got up at 7.30am, went to sleep at 9am, up at 10am, then asleep at 11.30am , woke at 12.30pm for a feed and went straight back to sleep til 3pm..... That was a big sleep, but she just did not want to wake up. Then she had another sleep 5-6pm, but I think all this sleeping today might partly be due to her 12 week growth spurt, she has fed a lot too. And she is fast asleep now at 8.30pm.

I had trouble with her day sleeps and I went to a sleep clinic, and they showed me the whole "sleep, feed, tummy time, play time til sleepy signs show, then sleep" routine. And they showed me how to get her to sleep (ie the cot rocking only as she cries, not til she falls asleep). 

Phew, that was a novel sorry :blush:


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## stephie_corin

Wow RMSH, it sounds like you are doing everything textbook correctly :) well done. You seem to have a really good handle on appropriate responses and how to soothe her for naps etc. its great you aren't feeding to sleep too - my son has a really strong suck to sleep association and it means no one can put him down but me. It's a good sign that she is waking at night and going straight back to sleep - she doesn't have her days and nights confused. There are quite a few growth spurts up to 6 months of age, so she may actually be waking from hunger.

As I said, you're already doing a fantastic job. What I would suggest is:

- get her up at 7 (or 730 if you want to shower first) so it will start setting her internal clock. She may be difficult to wake but persevere and soon she should start waking naturally at this time. 
- decrease her max awake time to 1.5 hours. This means she should be asleep 1.5 hours after she last woke. 
- if you can manage it, try to feed her more frequently in the day. The more she eats during the day, the less likely it is she will wake at night for a feed. This is particularly true if she is going through a growth spurt.
- if you can get away with one nappy until morning time, I wouldn't change her. I only change my son if he has a dirty nappy between bed time and morning.

I know it's hard to switch off but do try to lie down at least once in the day when she is taking a long nap. Even lying with your eyes closed resting is very restorative.

Good luck, I'm sure the others will have good advice for you too. Please keep us updated xxx


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## AmyS

Just when I thought things couldn't possible get worse! Of course they can. Really. 

Let's see, Chloe was asleep by 7:30, in her crib by 8:15. Then, we were up at 9:30, 10:30, 11:15, 12:00-3:15, and then up for the day at 5:45. Her 3 hour wake time included a 1 1/2 hour sobbing/screaming fest with me trying to comfort her. The only thing that would calm her down was the golf channel! 

She was rolling all over her crib and trying to crawl, and then when I finally got her to sleep at 3:15, I laid her down beside me on my fancy air mattress, and she snuggled right up and didn't move a muscle! Unfortunately, I couldn't sleep then, because I was worried her nose was too close to my shirt. I really do think it's the developmental stuff waking her up, so I am not getting frustrated at all, but I'm just dragging today. Hopefully, only another week of this or so...
___________

rmsh1 - I am definitely no sleep expert, but I'd have to agree with everyone else, it sounds like you are doing great!! I do remember from that time, my LO's bedtime was around 9 or 9:30 too, and it eventually got earlier and earlier. Now, she consistently goes down at 7 or 7:30.


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## polaris

Amy - :hugs: That really sounds like the night from hell! I really know that horrendous tiredness after a night of no sleep. It definitely does sound developmental though, I hope she figures things out quickly and both of you can get some sleep.

rmsh - I think it sounds like you are doing everything right. I think one of the hardest things about baby sleep is letting go of the belief that there is a magic formula that will get them sleeping right and accepting that to a large extent it is out of your control. I would continue with what you are doing but I would try to relax about her sleep and avoid letting it get in on you if she's not sleeping perfectly (I am the biggest stress head about Clara's sleep so I should really follow my own advice. LOL). Some babies sleep through the night early and their parents do everything "wrong" whereas other babies just don't even if you do everything according to recommendations. I think Stephie's advice is good and I would definitely agree with shortening wake-times to 1.5 and controlling the morning wake-up time - but honestly there is only so much you can do and the rest is just out of your control. I found (find) this very hard to come to terms with as I am used to being in control of things and I think I can see a bit of that in your post (apologies if I am reading too much into your post). I always feel that if I can just control all the variables it will sort her sleep out - it is a huge pressure to put on oneself because you can then end up almost viewing it as a personal failure if they don't sleep. 

I am trying wake times of 3, 3.5, and 3.5, and I am really trying to have a 30 minute wind-down before sleep. So far it's working well. I think she really needs the wind-down time because I only had 15 minutes wind-down before nap 2 today and it took her an extra 15 minutes to fall asleep so that wake-time ended up being 3.75. Ha, I'm just reading back on my advice to rmsh above and then I launch straight into my own personal attempt to control everything and achieve perfect sleep! I should really follow my own advice.

Stephie and Gaia - Clara nurses down before every nap and bedtime too so OH never puts her to bed. My older boy didn't nurse to sleep and it really was much easier to leave him with other people. However I tried hard to get Clara onto an EASY routine and she was having none of it!


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## stephie_corin

Amy, you poor poor thing. I know it doesn't help but we have all had such terrible nights and they don't last forever. C is in our bed full time now but I remember when I used to bring him in for part of the night and I would have the same paranoia

We talk about teething a lot on this thread - do you think it might be teething causing her crying. I know with Cully there are his usual night wakings when he is relatively easy to settle, and his teething night wakings, which involve a lot of crying and difficulty in getting him back to sleep. Do you give any pain relief?

As for us, C crawled for the first time this afternoon. Luckily daddy was home with stomach flu (that sounds bad but you know what I mean... Good daddy was home ;)) and got to see it too! I don't know if this will make sleep better or worse for us now. But an exciting development none the less!

Hope everyone has a good night!

Edit - I agree with Polaris that it's developmental too, I was just wondering if teething might also be a factor xx


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## Noelle610

Aww Stephie, that's so exciting!

I think the teething thing comlicates sleep so much, because you can never be sure... They're really teething for years! I give ibuprofin when in doubt and it usually helps to curb night wakings.


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## polaris

Stephie, yay for crawling!! You will probably find that he wants to practice crawling instead of sleeping for a bit but once he gets used to his new skill sleep should improve.


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## AmyS

stephie - In hindsight, I probably should have tried giving her something, but I haven't been able to feel anything coming through yet. To me, her cry was more of a "You're a bad mommy, you ripped the head off of my Wubbanub and fed it to the dog!" cry than a pain cry. I don't know. It's so hard to tell!!! I am always worried about medicating when it's not necessary. I think tonight I will give her something before bed though, just to be on the safe side. 

So glad your hubby got to see him crawling, even if he was sick!! Those moments come and go too fast!


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## stephie_corin

Amy, regarding pain relief I always hold off giving it until I go to bed. So I put up with night wakings until then and if he is still waking with a pained cry I give it to him on the first waking after I go to sleep. It means he only has one dose and I can also be a bit more sure that it's pain rather than difficulty settling.

Thanks Noelle, Amy, Polaris! We are really excited. I know every baby crawls at some point but when it's your own baby it feel like man is taking his first step on the moon!


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## seaweed eater

Amy, I am so so sorry you had such an awful night. We had a very similar one recently. It is just crushing. :hugs: :hugs: If your LO is working on crawling then I bet it's to do with that. I think something that has helped us is really trying to wear him out during the day and especially the last WT. (Up until winding down time before bed, of course.)

Hi Rmsh, welcome, sorry to see you here :hugs: your LO sounds very very normal for her age and you are doing everything right. You have also gotten some good advice. I would particularly echo everything Polaris said. My experience based on my own LO and hearing from other moms at baby groups is that the books are much more helpful for older babies (>4 months) than younger ones. Does it seem like Emma is tired and grumpy and not getting enough sleep? Or is it just that it's not sustainable for you? I ask in no way to discount the importance of making sure that things are sustainable for you, but the approach may be slightly different if LO seems all right. Definitely give yourself quiet time during the day even if you can't nap.

The most important thing at her age is respecting maximum wake times IMO. I think a consistent morning wake time would also be great for getting an idea of a daily rhythm, but she may even be a bit young to have much of a routine. I would swap out the music for white noise, and keep it on throughout her naps (more for when she is older, because it sounds like this is working fine right now -- you could also wait if you don't want to make the change). And, you probably are already, but make sure you are doing the exact same things in the same order at every nap time.

You said you have a one bed place, but if you keep feeling like the wakings are really too much, you may see if there's any way you can give LO her own space -- by having you and DH try sleeping in the living room, or putting up a curtain to separate her space from yours or something like that. My LO's 4 month regression (which started at 12 weeks) was "solved" by moving him out of our room to his own room. We didn't do that until about 18-19 weeks so I don't know whether it would have worked sooner, but he went back to 5-7 hour stretches immediately (from waking every 2 hours or so). Not saying that will necessarily help for your LO, but it may be something to try.

I hope things get better and you manage to get some rest soon :hugs: 

Stephie, congrats on the crawling!!! :happydance: I hope it doesn't make things worse. Just give him a lot of time to practice during the day I guess, but of course you know that already! Munchkin has nearly learned how to roll from tummy to back (that's right, he still can't :blush:) and I think if he gets that before crawling he probably will not crawl...which I am ok with.

Polaris, so interesting that shortening WTs is working well for you. Maybe when this sleep training stuff settles down I will try that.

AFM, Munchkin was up at 1:30 and 5 tonight, and I'd decided I would nurse him every time for the sake of of my own sanity (on Saturday night he had an early waking and I didn't feed him, which went fine). But he came off awake and SS quietly both times, so hopefully we are back on track. I was afraid last night that I'd somehow roused his anger and now he will want to protest all the time, but DH said he doesn't see how that's possible when I stayed consistent and LO did eventually SS in bed. I hope he's right.


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## Aimee4311

I have a question for y'all!

We've been down to two naps a day for about a week now, and it's been going really well! No melt downs due to tiredness, she falls asleep super easily, etc. 

But today she's been super sleepy. She had a meltdown about 1 hour and 45 minutes after waking this morning and fell asleep nursing about a minute later. She's now on her second nap of the day only about 2 hours after waking from the first. It looks like it's going to be a 3 nap day for the first time in a little while. 

Do any of y'all's babies have the occasional extra nap? Maybe she's in a growth spurt?


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## Noelle610

Aimee4311 said:


> I have a question for y'all!
> 
> We've been down to two naps a day for about a week now, and it's been going really well! No melt downs due to tiredness, she falls asleep super easily, etc.
> 
> But today she's been super sleepy. She had a meltdown about 1 hour and 45 minutes after waking this morning and fell asleep nursing about a minute later. She's now on her second nap of the day only about 2 hours after waking from the first. It looks like it's going to be a 3 nap day for the first time in a little while.
> 
> Do any of y'all's babies have the occasional extra nap? Maybe she's in a growth spurt?

We definitely had the occassional third nap until around 9 months. And even know Charlotte might have one if she's ill or something.


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## ShelbyLC

I'm wondering if I can join you ladies here. My LOs are going through the 4 month sleep regression/wonder week 19 right now and it's killing me. They used to sleep 12-13 hours straight from about 7pm to 8am but now there's no routine, very little sleep, and everything is just awful. I have PND, which I just recently started treatment for, so that just makes everything worse.

Our days used to look like this:

6:30 - I wake up, pump, get milk put away, then back to bed to cuddle with OH until the girls wake up
8:00 - Girls wake up. Change diapers, get dressed for the day, have bottles. Play for about 45 minutes, then finish bottles.
9:30 - Nap #1, OH leaves for work
11:00 - Wake up, diaper change, bottles, play.
12:30 - Nap #2. I pump again.
1:45 - Wake up, diaper change, bottles. Play or go out.
3:15 - Nap #3
4:15 - Wake up, diaper change, bottles, play.
5:00 - Daddy is home! I pump. They begin to get fussy. Occasionally they would cat nap for 10-15 minutes.
5:50 - They are tired. I put milk away and get things together for their bath.
6:20 - Bath, dressed for bed, bottle.
7:00 - Asleep

Now, our days look something like this:

9:00am to 5:00pm - a clusterf**k of too-short naps, crying babies, pumping, feeding, and absolutely NO leaving the house unless I want to listen to them scream because they can't see anything from the stroller.
5:00pm - Daddy gets home from work and I cry with relief. Pump.
6:00pm - Babies go to sleep
9:30pm - Babies wake up. They are somehow wide awake and tireless for 3-4 hours. Bath time, lots of soothing, rocking, swaddling, driving in the car, and swearing from Mommy and Daddy.
Between 12:00am and 3:00am - Babies fall asleep.
4 hours after falling asleep - one baby wakes up. Quick bottle, then back to sleep.
1 hours after first baby falls asleep - second baby wakes up. Quick bottle, then back to sleep.
Repeat

I don't know what to do. They are exhausted during the day and wide awake at night. I'm tired, OH is tired, we're stressed, my boobs are always hurting from being off schedule with my pumping (I try to pump when they sleep but sometimes they wake up before I'm done or I NEED to pump and they refuse to nap, so they cry while I pump and cry because they are crying...) and I am just SO. DONE. with all of this.

We've already seen their pediatrician and there's no underlying problem. They just won't sleep. And nothing I try works. I can't hold them until they fall asleep or cosleep with them, because if they see me or OH while they are falling asleep, they want to play. Recently what we have to do is swaddle them, but them in their car seats, sit behind them and rock the car seats until they fall asleep. We then have to rock them every time they go through a sleep cycle, because they can't get through by themselves.

The thing is - they self-settle and go through sleep cycles on their own in their crib, on their stomachs. But in their car seats, the swing, or in their crib on their backs, they wake up. And we can't put them in their crib awake or they scream, and we can't move them to their crib until they're in a deep sleep, which now only happens between midnight and 3AM.

Ugh. I'm sorry this is so long. Thank you to anyone who has read this. :nope:


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## AmyS

Shelby - Wow, that sounds very exhausting! I'm not going to pretend to know what advice to offer, since I'm on here asking for myself currently (wonder week 26), but the ladies frequenting this thread have been very helpful! I'm sure you'll get some great tips!


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## Shadowy Lady

ok question for the ladies whose babies sttn or anyone else who might know:

Sofia has been waking up at 5:45 am the past three days because she's peed so much it has leaked into her sleepsuite. Is there a reason why she would pee so much all of the sudden? She always has a heavy diaper in the morning but never quite this much :/

Should I give her last bottle before bath perhaps? I just don't understand this.


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## Aimee4311

Shelby- I'm sorry this is such a tough time! The four month sleep regression is killer for those of us with one, two just seems like a special form of torture. :wacko: I don't have any advice because I'm just figuring it all out myself, but a lot of the ladies on here have wonderful advice. 
:hugs:
Have you talked to San Fran Shan to see how she coped with the 4 month regression with hers?


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## ShelbyLC

Aimee4311 said:


> Shelby- I'm sorry this is such a tough time! The four month sleep regression is killer for those of us with one, two just seems like a special form of torture. :wacko: I don't have any advice because I'm just figuring it all out myself, but a lot of the ladies on here have wonderful advice.
> :hugs:
> Have you talked to San Fran Shan to see how she coped with the 4 month regression with hers?

I have - she did a form of CC/CIO and that just doesn't work for us. :nope:


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## rmsh1

Thanks for all the tips ladies. I am off out but will reply in depth later


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## polaris

Shelby - my goodness, I just can't imagine coping with all that with two and managing to pump as well. You are doing AMAZING!!! Your old schedule looks great, it can feel so depressing when everything takes such a turn for the worse and multiply that by 1000% with two of them not sleeping properly! The only thing that I am wondering is whether they are ready for longer awake times now that they are a bit older? Maybe try 2 hours instead of 1.5? I wish I had more helpful advice for you - it sounds so stressful. :hugs:

Shadowy - could you go up a size for a bit more absorbency?

Seaweed - how did bedtime go for you this evening, better I hope?

Aimee - yes it's normal to have the odd three nap day, same with the later nap transitions, just go with what your baby needs.

Clara is teething badly and was awake most of the evening crying. It's nearly 3 a.m. here and she's asleep but Thomas is awake and now I'm wide awake. :dohh:


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## ShelbyLC

polaris said:


> Shelby - my goodness, I just can't imagine coping with all that with two and managing to pump as well. You are doing AMAZING!!! Your old schedule looks great, it can feel so depressing when everything takes such a turn for the worse and multiply that by 1000% with two of them not sleeping properly! The only thing that I am wondering is whether they are ready for longer awake times now that they are a bit older? Maybe try 2 hours instead of 1.5? I wish I had more helpful advice for you - it sounds so stressful. :hugs:

I follow their cues and put them down when they get tired. Since this sleep issue has started, they actually get tired after only 1 hour of awake time. If I keep them up longer than that, they are overtired and scream. The only exception to this being from 9:00 to 12:00/3:00. Then they can suddenly spend HOURS awake without getting tired! :wacko:


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## polaris

ShelbyLC said:


> polaris said:
> 
> 
> Shelby - my goodness, I just can't imagine coping with all that with two and managing to pump as well. You are doing AMAZING!!! Your old schedule looks great, it can feel so depressing when everything takes such a turn for the worse and multiply that by 1000% with two of them not sleeping properly! The only thing that I am wondering is whether they are ready for longer awake times now that they are a bit older? Maybe try 2 hours instead of 1.5? I wish I had more helpful advice for you - it sounds so stressful. :hugs:
> 
> I follow their cues and put them down when they get tired. Since this sleep issue has started, they actually get tired after only 1 hour of awake time. If I keep them up longer than that, they are overtired and scream. The only exception to this being from 9:00 to 12:00/3:00. Then they can suddenly spend HOURS awake without getting tired! :wacko:Click to expand...

Oh dear, it sounds like a vicious circle, I'd say the short awake times are contributing to the pattern of catnapping but it sounds like they are getting tired really quickly because of the generally rubbish sleep. I hope Noelle or somebody has some good advice for you hun.


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## seaweed eater

Wow Shelby, you are amazing to have kept up what you are doing. :hugs: I bet it doesn't help very much to hear that though when what you want is solutions!

The one thing I wonder is, do they nap well in a moving car? That's been my go-to technique, knock on wood, when mine really needs a nap and nothing seems to work. I drive until he's asleep, park, read a book or do some work or something, and then start driving again when he's completing a cycle or if he stirs. If that works for you, it strikes me that it's something you could do to get both of them synchronized during the day. And you could get a car adapter for your pump and get that done at the same time.

Do you have the financial resources to hire any form of help? I can't imagine being stretched as thin as you are between trying to manage both of their naps and pumping. But I know that's not an option that's available for everyone.

Shadowy, I'm not sure what could be causing that :nope: we have had some leaks before though even with Huggies Overnites. What I do now is put a full cloth diaper over the Huggies and usually that does the trick. A wool diaper cover might work too. Might be something to consider if you can't get it to stop?

Polaris, I'm so sorry you have had such a rough night. :hugs: I really hope you got some rest in the end.

Aimee, we definitely have had plenty of days with three naps. That happens sometimes. Just go with it.

Munchkin is unwell or something. He's been grumpy and not himself all day. Bedtime tonight was rough. But I didn't feel as guilty about it, because he screamed no matter what we did so I didn't feel like there was anything I could have done that would have been better for him. :nope: And he was clearly really trying to go to sleep. I'm going to go ahead and say it's teething. If I'm wrong, it can just be one of those positive illusions that help maintain one's sanity...
Anyway, going to keep nursing and putting down awake during the night if at all possible.


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## stephie_corin

Shelby, I wonder if you could do bath time before they go to sleep at 6. I wonder if the bath is waking them up and stimulating them hence the late nights. My LO has had an early bedtime for a long time now (6pm). I'd treat the 9pm waking as a night waking and rock them straight back to sleep.

So sorry for you!!! It sounds so difficult! X


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## stephie_corin

Amy, could well be a growth spurt! I agree with the others - go for three naps! We've had days I'm sure C would have benefited from 3 naps instead of me pushing him when he is tired.

Shadowy, I'm not sure why she is leaking now - could it be she is moving more in her sleep rather than a greater quantity of pee? If the volume of liquid she is taking in is the same I can't think of a reason she is peeing more. I think SE's suggestion is a good one.

Polaris! 3am and you were wide awake!?! Oh no! I hope you got some sleep!

SE, poor Munchkin. Teething really is the pits. And don't worry, Culver has been 'teething' for four months now ;) I think Munchkin will most likely skip crawling and go straight to walking, once he nails rolling. I read that once they are mobile (whether bum shuffling, crawling or rolling consecutively) they often don't bother learning other ways until they walk. And he's cruising already right? Clever boy!

We had our usual night. He's doing a longer stretch now at the start (4 hours) which is amazing but thereafter it's still an hourly event, until 4am when suddenly he thinks its fun to wake up every 15 minutes! Up for the day at 530am. I swear the BnB curse is totally real. I've been banging on about how well I can rock him back to sleep and he now wakes at 6am. Well, these last two nights he's shown me! I think it could be overtiredness/teething/hitting milestones etc., (basically I have no idea) but I'm trying Polaris' waketimes today. We just did 3 hours waketime and I'll try 3.5 for the next two.


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## ShelbyLC

seaweed eater said:


> Wow Shelby, you are amazing to have kept up what you are doing. :hugs: I bet it doesn't help very much to hear that though when what you want is solutions!
> 
> The one thing I wonder is, do they nap well in a moving car? That's been my go-to technique, knock on wood, when mine really needs a nap and nothing seems to work. I drive until he's asleep, park, read a book or do some work or something, and then start driving again when he's completing a cycle or if he stirs. If that works for you, it strikes me that it's something you could do to get both of them synchronized during the day. And you could get a car adapter for your pump and get that done at the same time.
> 
> Do you have the financial resources to hire any form of help? I can't imagine being stretched as thin as you are between trying to manage both of their naps and pumping. But I know that's not an option that's available for everyone.

Thank you :flower:

They do sleep very well in the car. For about two weeks straight, when this first started, that was our last resort - we would stick them in the car around 11pm and drive until they were in a deep sleep. There were many times when they woke while being carried into the house and it wasn't ideal. We were already exhausted and driving while tired led to us nearly falling asleep behind the wheel one too many times. We're trying to avoid that now, as I don't want it to become the only way they fall asleep, but if they just won't nap during the day and I'm having a hard time calming myself down, I will put them in the car and drive them around while I grab lunch or something.

Unfortunately, we can't afford to hire any help. We're stretched pretty thin, despite OH working all the time. We do have family nearby but don't get on well with any of them, and even if we did, they all work full time. We don't even have a babysitter for emergencies. I haven't had a day to myself since the girls came home from the NICU :nope:



stephie_corin said:


> Shelby, I wonder if you could do bath time before they go to sleep at 6. I wonder if the bath is waking them up and stimulating them hence the late nights. My LO has had an early bedtime for a long time now (6pm). I'd treat the 9pm waking as a night waking and rock them straight back to sleep.
> 
> So sorry for you!!! It sounds so difficult! X

We started out keeping to the schedule with 6:30 baths and treating anything after 7 as nighttime waking, but no matter what we do, once they wake up, they're AWAKE. Last night, I put the girls down at 8 and they stayed asleep! I hoped we had finally reached the end of this mess, but they both woke up at 1AM. We managed to get Britton back to sleep after 45 minutes but Tegan fought for 2 hours before OH admitted defeat and passed out. I finally had to let her play for an hour before she got tired enough to fall asleep again.

I just don't understand why they are having this long period of awake time in the middle of the night!


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## stephie_corin

Shelby how about an earlier bedtime? They may be overtired. I'd work on up at the same time every day and lengthening their awake times to 1.5 hours - can you take them outside to get some sunlight? Noelle mention previously that sunlight suppresses melatonin so it might help them stay awake longer in the day. 

Good luck and please keep us updated x


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## rmsh1

stephie_corin said:


> Wow RMSH, it sounds like you are doing everything textbook correctly :) well done. You seem to have a really good handle on appropriate responses and how to soothe her for naps etc. its great you aren't feeding to sleep too - my son has a really strong suck to sleep association and it means no one can put him down but me. It's a good sign that she is waking at night and going straight back to sleep - she doesn't have her days and nights confused. There are quite a few growth spurts up to 6 months of age, so she may actually be waking from hunger.
> 
> As I said, you're already doing a fantastic job. What I would suggest is:
> 
> - get her up at 7 (or 730 if you want to shower first) so it will start setting her internal clock. She may be difficult to wake but persevere and soon she should start waking naturally at this time.
> - decrease her max awake time to 1.5 hours. This means she should be asleep 1.5 hours after she last woke.
> - if you can manage it, try to feed her more frequently in the day. The more she eats during the day, the less likely it is she will wake at night for a feed. This is particularly true if she is going through a growth spurt.
> - if you can get away with one nappy until morning time, I wouldn't change her. I only change my son if he has a dirty nappy between bed time and morning.
> 
> I know it's hard to switch off but do try to lie down at least once in the day when she is taking a long nap. Even lying with your eyes closed resting is very restorative.
> 
> Good luck, I'm sure the others will have good advice for you too. Please keep us updated xxx

OK I will keep trying to have her up by 7.30am. It is really hard when she just wants to keep sleeping. I had her up at 7.30am today though. But the routine always goes out the window when we go out somewhere, like today to a friends place. So Emma got her first nap at home, then we left after feeding and her second nap came a bit late but she slept at my friends place in a cot. Then we went to a mall for her next nap, just to try to ensure she got a nap. Then we were home and she had a 50 minute nap just now, but has woken quite cranky.

The only times she has been awake for 2 hours is when she has just not shown any tired signs. Normally she is awake about an hour 15 minutes.

I have also tried to feed her more today, offering her both boobs over the course of about 45 minutes. She is a pukey baby so I am a bit weary of over feeding her - she never says no! :haha: She has a bit of reflux.

I feel mean leaving her in one nappy all night long, I admit. Her nappy at 6am this morning was not hugely wet, but her nappy at around 8am was soaking, so I don't think she pees too much at night any more, mostly when she wakes up. 

Thanks for the tips!



AmyS said:


> rmsh1 - I am definitely no sleep expert, but I'd have to agree with everyone else, it sounds like you are doing great!! I do remember from that time, my LO's bedtime was around 9 or 9:30 too, and it eventually got earlier and earlier. Now, she consistently goes down at 7 or 7:30.

Thanks, I hope Emma's gets earlier too, as I am basically having to be alert to her every need right til she decides to go to sleep. I would love just a few hours for myself and OH to be ourselves again!



polaris said:


> rmsh - I think it sounds like you are doing everything right. I think one of the hardest things about baby sleep is letting go of the belief that there is a magic formula that will get them sleeping right and accepting that to a large extent it is out of your control. I would continue with what you are doing but I would try to relax about her sleep and avoid letting it get in on you if she's not sleeping perfectly (I am the biggest stress head about Clara's sleep so I should really follow my own advice. LOL). Some babies sleep through the night early and their parents do everything "wrong" whereas other babies just don't even if you do everything according to recommendations. I think Stephie's advice is good and I would definitely agree with shortening wake-times to 1.5 and controlling the morning wake-up time - but honestly there is only so much you can do and the rest is just out of your control. I found (find) this very hard to come to terms with as I am used to being in control of things and I think I can see a bit of that in your post (apologies if I am reading too much into your post). I always feel that if I can just control all the variables it will sort her sleep out - it is a huge pressure to put on oneself because you can then end up almost viewing it as a personal failure if they don't sleep.

Yes I definitely feel like if I could fix all the variables, maybe she will sleep better, so guilty as charged of that! But you ladies here have really helped me see that I just need to let Emma be Emma in some ways, and only try to control a few things (like wake up time)


----------



## AmyS

Hello ladies! Wow, I might just feel like a million bucks today!

I put little miss to bed an hour early last night, and she woke up for a bottle at 11:45pm, went back to sleep, woke up at 4:30, fed her another bottle, and we went back to bed until 6am (our usual wake up time). This is amazing! She must have been exhausted from the previous night. 

I did try to start her out in her crib, but she immediately woke up sobbing/screaming, so I stuck her in the rock 'n play. My only worry is that she will get used to the rock 'n play again after we worked so hard to get her out of it! I guess if I was a consistent mommy, I could have kept trying the crib, but I also know that she needs sleep (as do I) any way we can get it right now. 
________

Shelby - I am still in awe of you! And I still have no advice, but I just love your baby girls' names! 

Shadowy - I have had good luck going up one size in the night time diaper I'm using. I call them her "big butt diapers", but now that I think about it, I better stop doing that, or I'll probably give her a bad body image!!! 

Stephie - What is this BnB curse?? Maybe I'm better off not knowing?? 

Seaweed - Sorry for the rough night! Teething is such a pain. I wondered if that was causing my LO's super crankiness this morning, but I didn't give her anything for it before I sent her to daycare. It's so hard to know for sure! (For all I know, she could have just hated the outfit I put her in.)


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## stephie_corin

Good luck RMSH! It's so nice when they start sleeping earlier and you get some adult time. I hope it happens for you soon. I think you'll find when she stays awake longer (say 1.5 hours) and has 4 naps her bedtime will get earlier. 

Amy, I'm so glad you had a good night! You certainly needed it! I just googled the rock and play - does it continually move or just when you want to rock her - I couldn't tell from google image. Is there any safety issue with her sleeping in it? Or health issue? It looks like a kind if cot. If there's no issues with it I wouldn't sweat it if it's making your life easier. As you say, it's allowing you both to get some much needed sleep! And you know, I don't think it was exhaustion - I think it was progress :)

The BnB curse gets me every time I post about progress - guaranteed the next day the opposite happens! Lol. Or not so lol!

Polaris, you are a genius! 3, 3.5 and 3.5 worked so well today! I was worried he wouldn't make 3 in the morning but he did fine. He's asleep in my arms now - just waiting for some deep sleep before I put him down. I thought he'd have difficulty falling asleep but 3.5 seemed to hit a real sweet spot! So thanks :)


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## Noelle610

> Stephie - What is this BnB curse?? Maybe I'm better off not knowing??

Once you say your baby is sleeping well, they stop! It's like a jinx!

I haven't checked in on my own story it quite some time, but we had a tough night here! Charlie's been consistently STTN these days, but was up several times from 7pm to midnight. No idea why! I finally gave her advil at that time and she slept the rest of the night with a few peeps around 5am. The dreaded teetihng, maybe? Molars? Her daddy is away right now and she could be sensitive to the change. We have a lot of traveling to do over the next few weeks and I'm slightly scared it will mess up her sleep completely.


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## Noelle610

Shadowy Lady said:


> ok question for the ladies whose babies sttn or anyone else who might know:
> 
> Sofia has been waking up at 5:45 am the past three days because she's peed so much it has leaked into her sleepsuite. Is there a reason why she would pee so much all of the sudden? She always has a heavy diaper in the morning but never quite this much :/
> 
> Should I give her last bottle before bath perhaps? I just don't understand this.

What kind of diapers are you using? Huggies Overnights are truly the best. A friend of mine gets extra padded inserts because her LO pees a lot. That may help too. 

I don't know that moving the bottle up would help, but you could certainly try! 30 minutes or so won't make a difference in her hunger level at this age, I don't think.


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## AmyS

Stephie - It only rocks if you manually move it. There aren't really any health concerns, but it can cause a flat spot if baby sleeps in it for all naps and night time. Also, my pediatrician doesn't like her in it all night because she prefers them flat for their spine development. It was wonderful to use when she had RSV and needed to be upright, and I think reflux babies also use it a lot. And she's getting too big for it, really! She can sit upright in it, but thankfully, her butt is down too low so she can't catapult herself out of it.

Noelle - Oh crap! I guess I'll plan on partying all night tonight! Poor Charlie! I heard molars are the worst.


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## stephie_corin

Noelle610 said:


> Stephie - What is this BnB curse?? Maybe I'm better off not knowing??
> 
> Once you say your baby is sleeping well, they stop! It's like a jinx!
> 
> I haven't checked in on my own story it quite some time, but we had a tough night here! Charlie's been consistently STTN these days, but was up several times from 7pm to midnight. No idea why! I finally gave her advil at that time and she slept the rest of the night with a few peeps around 5am. The dreaded teetihng, maybe? Molars? Her daddy is away right now and she could be sensitive to the change. We have a lot of traveling to do over the next few weeks and I'm slightly scared it will mess up her sleep completely.Click to expand...

Noelle! Hugs! I've heard molars can be pretty tough :( good luck with your travels. I hope Charlie doesn't get too disrupted. And good luck with no DH around! X


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## mellyboo

Shadowy Lady said:


> ok question for the ladies whose babies sttn or anyone else who might know:
> 
> Sofia has been waking up at 5:45 am the past three days because she's peed so much it has leaked into her sleepsuite. Is there a reason why she would pee so much all of the sudden? She always has a heavy diaper in the morning but never quite this much :/
> 
> Should I give her last bottle before bath perhaps? I just don't understand this.

we have to use over night diapers with Jords no matter how much she drinks she will pee right through..

Anyway so i haven't posted in here because i honestly didn't want the BNB curse well we had one rough sunday night up every 30 mins not sure what that was about.. you would think last night i would be able to sleep heck no... I'm having sleep issue's now my body can't adjust to sleeping she does great one week and crap the next my body is messed up ... i lay in bed stressing out all night because I no i'll be so tired in the morning!... It sucks!! I made a dr's appointment even.


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## VikkiD

Daniels not been to bad we have had a few wakings and a few night feeds but things are getting better again


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## Shadowy Lady

Thanks guys, we use Pampers Baby Dry for her. Maybe I give Huggies overnight a try too. Though this morning she was fine and slept till 7:00 am. But I just prefer not to have the 5:30 am ever if it can be avoided :)


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## gaiagirl

Wow sleep is a mess this week! He IS still cutting teeth but its getting ridiculous to keep blaming teething?! One is super close but still not through then we might get a break...

He is soooo close to crawling, and I think in the throes of separation anxiety. He gets quite upset if someone walks away...

Do those things mess sleep up badly?!

Naps have been a MESS for like 3-4 days and taking the soother is totally over. Evenings are insane, he will power nap on the boob then get a second wind and be up until 9/10. Ridiculous!

I have been here before...I know it ends...but it still feels permanent while I'm in it.

Repeating: "He's having a hard time, not giving me a hard time"

Sighhhhhhhh


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## Shadowy Lady

Gaia - all the things you said can mess up with sleep, but it depends on the baby. For us crawling at 6 months caused sleep disruption just when she had started to sttn. However, it only lasted a week and then back to sttn. Teething does bother her but I give her ibroprofen and she still sleeps through. Have you tried giving your LO medication? It won't do any harm and only ease his pain.

Hope things get better soon for you


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## AmyS

gaiagirl said:


> Repeating: "He's having a hard time, not giving me a hard time"

I like that! I might have to use that mantra, in the middle of the night, when we are partying hard!


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## gaiagirl

It's a tough one with meds because my guy is not much of a cryer, so if he is then I will usually give him something for pain. BUT lately is hasn't been awake and crying type of sleeplessness, just awake and can't unwind and ready to party sleeplessness. And I'm not convinced he is in pain!?


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## Noelle610

Shadowy Lady said:


> Thanks guys, we use Pampers Baby Dry for her. Maybe I give Huggies overnight a try too. Though this morning she was fine and slept till 7:00 am. But I just prefer not to have the 5:30 am ever if it can be avoided :)

Def try Huggies Overnights. Pampers Babydry don't even compare in their ability to hold leaks!


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## stephie_corin

Gaia what are you doing for naps now? How many are you aiming for? Not sure if you guys are on two naps yet but it's made such a difference to our day time routine. I hope things get better for you soon. Culver literally just learnt to crawl and we had a horrible two weeks leading up to it. Hugs to you!


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## Noelle610

2 naps are awesome!!!! So much more predictability.


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## polaris

Stephie - yay, so glad that the wake-times worked well today. Although as you so rightly said, I'm sure he'll do something totally different tomorrow, LOL. They worked well for us today too although naps were a bit shorter than usual so bedtime was earlier than usual, but that's OK. 

Gaia, I agree that it depends on the baby how much teething, separation anxiety, and developmental stuff can mess up sleep. With DS, his sleep was very rarely affected by teething or even illness, but developmental stuff always affected his sleep. Separation anxiety never affected him at night time at all so far as I can remember. With Clara, everything seems to affect her sleep, but teething and illness in particular really affect her badly at nighttime (whereas she is generally perfectly cheerful during the day). Sorry that things are so tough at the moment. :hugs:

Noelle, sorry to hear you had a rough evening, hopefully it was just a once off. I would say that even if the travelling does affect her sleep she's in such a good routine now that I'm sure it won't take her long to get back on track.

LOL, one of the "good" things about having a baby who doesn't sleep well no matter what you do is that you really don't have to worry too much about taking her out of her routine and messing up her sleep! With Thomas I always dreaded the disruption of holidays/travelling/etc. whereas with Clara I just sort of mentally shrug, well her sleep can hardly really be any worse! 

Glad to read about people who are having good nights and making progress!


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## dlj2

Can anyone offer advice.. My lo is 10months and previously sttn. Then the teething and a nasty cold came and she came into our bed, now the lil tyke clearly prefers this and is waking in the night to come in.

Ive tried calming her in her cot but me or husband going in just makes her crying much worse once she's seen us! What can I do?, I can't just leave her crying once she wakes but also know going in works her up even more! Help? 

She naps in the day fine and self settles upon going to bed. Thank you.xx


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## Shadowy Lady

Noelle610 said:


> Shadowy Lady said:
> 
> 
> Thanks guys, we use Pampers Baby Dry for her. Maybe I give Huggies overnight a try too. Though this morning she was fine and slept till 7:00 am. But I just prefer not to have the 5:30 am ever if it can be avoided :)
> 
> Def try Huggies Overnights. Pampers Babydry don't even compare in their ability to hold leaks!Click to expand...

Thanks Noelle, we're running out of diapers anyway so I will get a box of the Huggies overnight. They run t about the same size as Pampers, right?

I'm also thinking I need to size up on Pampers. She's in size 3 now and weighs 21lbs. The box says it's good for up to 26lbs but she seems to recently do explosive poops that won't be contained. Maybe a bigger size will help:shrug:


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## gaiagirl

Stephie we are in the midst of messy transition and I do think its ALSO wreaking havoc on the evenings. 

He has a few days a week of 2 and sometimes 3 if needed. Today for ex:

Up at 7:30
Nap 9:40-10:20 (boo one cycle naps :()
Nap 1:45-????
Bed at 7 probably

So we are doing 2 today as well, which is slowly becoming the norm. It's tough though because he isn't taking long ones so he does get cranky.

It feels like there's a LOT going on with him right now so I'm trying to just give us both some grace and remember that this little crazy phase WILL pass...

He will stop cutting teeth, he will learn to crawl, he will get used to 2 naps...right!?!? Lol


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## mandimoo

Hi, I wondered if anyone could help? LO is 7mo. Until recently she usually had 3 x 45 min naps & STTN. 

Lately the days go roughly like this...
7.30am up
10.30am nap 45min
4pm nap....? min
7pm bed

So, you can see she seems to be dropping her lunchtime nap. This is unusual right? 
If I manage to get her down before 4pm I would like her sleep more than one cycle but she won't do this unless she is on our bed and I am laying with her. And try as I might I cannot encourage her to resettle in her crib. 

And alongside the deterioration of naps, she's started night waking again so I'm keen to improve the naps. 

How can I get her to sleep more than one cycle in the day.? She obviously can resettle herself cos she only usually wakes once in the night.


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## rmsh1

Seaweed eater I forgot to reply to your post yesterday sorry.

Can you please tell me why you would swap out the music for white noise? I have done that today but am curious why. I have been playing Enigma to her, since it always relaxes me :haha:

No Emma does not really seem tired and grumpy, only as it approaches her sleep time. In the evenings she is definitely quite tired and grumpy, but she really will not go down any earlier than she sees fit. I bath/shower her at 8pm, and we tend to start the wind down before then. Then after her wash, she gets cuddles with dad, then I take her onto our bed and feed her, while reading a story. Last night I put her down at 8.30pm, she grizzled (not cry) til 9pm, so we left her completely alone and she went to sleep sometimes around 9pm. She did not actually cry, just grizzled. I am not ready to let her cry it out just yet, I think she is still too young, so I would have fed her again if she had cried. 

I fed Emma a bit extra yesterday, offering her both boobs over 45 minutes, and she actually only woke twice last night. She woke exactly every 3.5 hours. I felt a lot more rested today. I do wonder how much milk I have in the evenings, I tried to express some last night for OH to give her a bottle, but could get nothing out. Emma got something out of course, but I question how much.

Sadly our place is far too small for us to even sleep in the lounge. We are in transition as we moved back to NZ from the UK in October, and I could not find work due to being pregnant. So as soon as I get a contract in my hand, we are going house hunting, for a two bed place. I hope to get a job with my old boss starting in October.

Thanks for all your advice, and I am sorry I do not have advice for other mum's out there, due to being so new to this myself.


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## ShelbyLC

How many naps should my girls be having each day? I never know if I should treat them as 4 month olds or 6 month olds, so it's a bit difficult. Is 3 a good number? Or should it be 2?

I managed to stay in bed until 11:45 today, though I didn't get much sleep past 9:30 when OH left for work, as I had to settle the girls a few times each. I got everyone dressed once we were awake and we got out of the house and enjoyed the (extremely hot and humid) weather. They did catnap in the car a bit, but not enough to really matter, and took their first nap at 3:15. They woke naturally after an hour and wouldn't settle back to sleep. Is one hour enough of a nap?

One more question - if I wake them every day at 7:30, will they eventually alter their sleep schedule and begin naturally waking at 7:30? Would that be beneficial to our sleep issue? Maybe if I wake them at 7:30am, they'll be tired enough come 7pm to go to bed as they used to?

I wonder if getting strict with a schedule for a week or so would kick them back into place? I'm thinking of trying something like this -

7:30 &#8211; Awake, Pump
9:30 &#8211; Nap
10:30 &#8211; Awake (spend some time outside)
12:00 &#8211; Lunch (solids)
12:30 &#8211; Nap, Pump
1:30 &#8211; Awake
3:30 &#8211; Nap
4:30 &#8211; Awake (spend some time outside)
5:00 &#8211; Daddy's home! Pump
6:30 &#8211; Bedtime routine
7:00 &#8211; Bedtime
9/10 &#8211; Pump, sleep for me!
2/4 &#8211; Pump

That would give them 2 hours of awake time between naps instead of the 1.5 they used to have. And I normally go 4 hours between pumps but could do 5. Worth a try? :shrug:

ETA: I wouldn't normally keep them asleep until 11:45 but I was SO tired! :blush:


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## NotNic

Hiya, lots happening here since I last tries to post. I wrote a long reply and its nowhere to be seen. :shrug: Here's hoping I manage to reply to most of you. Apologies if I miss you out.

rmsh1 - I agree with pp about how great your approach seems to be. I think you may have a future good sleeper on your hands (touch wood!). There definitely is a growth spurt at 12 weeks, so I agree about adding an extra feed in during the day or concentrating evening feeds. Until F started solids we used to bf a long feed 3.30/4pm, a small feed at 6pm and another feed at 8pm. We then used to dream feed him at 11 w/ expressed breast milk. I also would stop any sleeping supports your baby doesn't need ASAP. If you stop rocking, swaddling etc. now before a dependence is formed you'll save your sanity and your back in the future! Obviously don't take them away if they need it, but it sounds to me like she doesn't and without those supports you'll encourage her to self soothe, which is a great skill to help your baby develop. Also I don't think anyone mentioned looking at your health. Around 3mths its quite normal to feel rundown and tired, meaning you're probably finding bad nights harder now than you did a month ago, which makes baby's sleep seem even worse. Your energy levels are zapped by less sleep, more stress and calories being used up by bfing. You're probably well into your energy stores now. Try to eat regularly and up your calorie levels with healthy fats and calcium rich food. A good vitamin will help. Also plenty of fresh air will give you a boost and help tire lo.

Shadowy - we don't have Huggies in the UK anymore but Pampers here do 3+ and 4+ etc. which are supposed to have extra absorbency levels. We use 4+ because Finlay is a broader baby, and the extra padding gives better coverage and less room to leak.

Gaia - heck yes! F's sleep was massively disturbed by every new skill he was learning to do. He practiced them all in his sleep and unlike teething there isn't anything you can do to make it better immediately. As for teething if you're unsure about medicating have you tried teething gels? A little on F's dummy helps him settle enough to drift off. 

Shelby - I was going to suggest that you tried to stick with a set waking up time. I do think it helps to give you a little bit of control back if nothing else! Also it sounds like their sleep cycles could do with a jolt to restart them on proper day / night systems. I feel for you all the 4/6mths thing because both WW periods are notoriously bad! I personally would adjust to 4mths for developmental things. Can you and your OH have a twin each of a night time so you're not both up at the same time - creating more activity to stimulate babies and give you guys a chance to sleep longer? Also it sounds like plans and schedules work best for you, so do try keep consistent in timings. A baby learns things often through repetition, so the same bedtime line up could be what you need. So on naps I think the guidelines suggest that 3 naps is most appropriate before 6 mths, however I had no clue of this and was highly grateful for F's 2 naps! :haha: He's turned out okay so far. :)

Mandiemoo - Yeo I think it's time to go to 2 naps. This is the age that they start sleeping longer. It may be a painful week or two where your lo struggles with tiredness but moving away from cat naps is best in the long run. I'd suggest rather than a lunchtime nap, a slightly later 2.30/3 nap might be a better fit. A lot of mums find a 4pm nap interferes with bedtime. 

I'm afraid I can't remember who was struggling with motn parties (I daren't move from my page in case I lose my novel :haha:) but from reading I just thought why done you ignore baby's playing? If you keep going in then that motn will become a regular, 'lets hang out with mummy' hour. As long as there's no crying, then you're not needed. F has soft cubes in his cot in case he wakes wide awake. Sometimes he plays quietly for a few mins and passes out!

Noelle - hope those teeth pop through soon. We're teething badly too. Will be glad when they're all through!


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## AmyS

Eeek, definitely teething here tonight, no doubt! LO has been extremely cranky all day, so I took a peek inside tonight while she was screaming at me, and I (finally) see 2 small white spots on the front of her lower gums. Gave her some Motrin, and now she's sleeping soundly...I should be too! I hope this means teeth soon! I know they can pop up and down for months...torture!
_________

Shelby - I have a hard time too wondering if I need to treat my LO as a 7 month old or as an almost 6 month old. She was 5 weeks early. I just recently started reading the Wonder Weeks, and she's right on track for her adjusted age of 25 weeks, so I'm going with that for now. But I also celebrated her 7 month birthday today! Yippee! I will have to wait to take her pictures until the weekend though, she's too cranky to smile at the camera!


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## stephie_corin

Amy I was thinking about you and the rock and play at 4 am- can you prop the cot mattress up at an incline the same as the rock and play and get her used to that for a week, and every few days lower it slightly until its flat? You could use towels or something. Glad you finally see a tooth! It took about a week for the first to cut through after I first saw the white. Hoping it's quick for you guys xxx


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## stephie_corin

Hi Dlj2 and welcome. I'm not sure of the answer to your question but hopefully one of the others are able to help you. It sounds like a bit of separation anxiety - could you possibly bring her back into your room until it passes? If not, I hope the others can give you some good pointers.

Polaris, I need to get into your mindset - I'm scared to take a holiday in case things get even worse! 

Gaia when we first switched to 2 naps Cully was only taking short naps too. I tried to rock him back to sleep or hold him so each nap was closer to an hour. Is this possible for you? I also lengthened his first awake time which helped push the second nap later making that stretch before bed not so bad. I started with 2.5, 3.35 and 3.5 waketimes and we are now on 3 hours before first nap. The longer waketimes really seem to be helping with longer naps. I do still need to help him back to sleep but its pretty easy now.

Shelby, I think you should wake them at the same time. Regarding naps, I'd stick with three for a little while if they are established on 3 or just catnapping. Especially if their adjusted age is only 4 months.

We had a pretty bad night but I'm sure it's teething. If I drank coffee I'd be drowning myself in it today!!


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## gaiagirl

I will try. I find mornings tough because he gets soooo cranky by the 2 hour mark. And also I'm lazy and tired so never want to do anything exciting to keep him entertained! Lol. Maybe we should do a morning walk.

So he ended up waking when I crib transferred him at 2 then didn't go back to sleep until 2:30 and slept until 5:15!!!! So a bit of a mess. We did bed at 8:45...

I'm tempted to stick to 3 naps and later bedtime because early seems to = battles but then I lose my baby free evenings :(

They haven't been fun lately anyways though with constantly trying to get him to sleep!


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## stephie_corin

gaiagirl said:


> I will try. I find mornings tough because he gets soooo cranky by the 2 hour mark. And also I'm lazy and tired so never want to do anything exciting to keep him entertained! Lol. Maybe we should do a morning walk.
> 
> So he ended up waking when I crib transferred him at 2 then didn't go back to sleep until 2:30 and slept until 5:15!!!! So a bit of a mess. We did bed at 8:45...
> 
> I'm tempted to stick to 3 naps and later bedtime because early seems to = battles but then I lose my baby free evenings :(
> 
> They haven't been fun lately anyways though with constantly trying to get him to sleep!

I know what you mean!!! Bedtime is between 6-7pm but he never falls asleep until at least an hour after bedtime! I think a morning walk is a great idea. I found C adapted really quickly when I pushed through his tired signs. All babies are different though of course. Good luck hon xxx


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## NotNic

dlj2 - sorry I knew I'd miss someone. I'm assuming you dont want to co-sleep - right? I'd be tempted to be a bit tough with your baby. It sounds like you have a very clever one :) and at the moment coming into your bed is a nice way to spend the night. Have you tried not going in immediately when your baby cries in the night? They might be calling out for company rather than through need. Can you observe from the doorway or somewhere lo can't see you? Alternatively try going in immediately before the cry wakes them up. (I realise this is totally contradictory but we wait and observe F when he's still in a light sleep and its our eve and do the opposite through the night!). Try your hardest not to pick them up. Reassure them in the cot or sit next to the cot to encourage them to lay down and hold their hand or have a hand on their back / tummy. You're probably going to have a tough couple of nights, but with all types of sleep management consistency is key. I'm a big one for explaining to F why his plan isn't going to work :D so if we were experiencing the same thing I would tell him 'Mummy is going to be right here. This is your bed and you need to sleep here. It's not morning so you can't come out yet'. Then I wouldn't say anything else as its the interaction they want. Alternatively CC would probably fix the problem quite easily but I don't think this sounds right for you. Good luck x 

I also forgot to say thank you to the WIO encouragement, so thank you! F is teething badly. 8,9 and 10 all swelling at his gums and he's off his food only eating cold things. We've had some poor nights but Monday was great. He sttn (7.45 - 6am) and I gave him his dummy back to see if we could get a bit longer before OH got up for work 6.50am. Next thing I knew it was 7.25am. I'd turned off the alarm in my sleep and OH was v. late for work. :dohh: We couldn't believe F had slept for that long and we went to check on him. Turns out he hadn't! He was playing quietly and happily with his teddies. Love him! No idea how long he'd been awake for but he didnt cry out or play with his Alfie bear. The rustle of his soft cubes is normally loud enough that I can hear them on the monitor. This sort of morning is just the type I'd like to order. :) Last night not so good. Painful wailing around 3.30am which ended up with nurofen and me waking him up at 6.30am again. I bet he's well happy at nursery today....


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## stephie_corin

Notnic that sounds tough. Teething really is such a horrible affliction for our little muffins. Finlay sounds like he was a perfect angel on Tuesday morning. What a sweetheart!! I hope it ends soon for him xx


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## AmyS

Stephie - I do have a crib wedge that I have used, but it prevents her from rolling over how she likes when she's in the crib, and then the little diva gets mad! I just can't make her happy! haha

NotNic - Your little boy sounds precious just playing away in his crib in the morning! Too bad the teething monster made your next night horrible. 
____________

Bring on the BnB curse! We had another great night (after the teething)! I gave her a dream feed at 9pm, then she woke at 3am. I fed her again, and she slept until 6:30!!! She hasn't done that for months! Of course, she was still in her rock 'n play all night. Tonight, she goes back in the crib again, so hopefully we aren't back to all night wake ups...or early morning wake ups...


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## polaris

Hi everyone, we had a really good night last night too (after the horrible teething episode on Monday evening). I feel so much more relaxed about Clara's sleep this week. She is just sleeping so much better now. I know it's not for everyone but co-sleeping has just been totally the right decision for us for the moment. She is so much happier sleeping on the futon rather than the cot and she is waking much less often - and also because I'm right there I can often get her to go straight back off to sleep after maybe just a very short comfort feed (literally less than a minute sometimes) or sometimes just patting her back a bit. I also think that the new shorter wake times are working well during the day and seem to have eliminated the lengthy settling difficulties that we were having for naps and bedtime. Also, she has started self-settling again!! I am feeding her lying down on the futon and when she is ready she just rolls away from me onto her tummy and takes herself off to sleep! I really can't believe how much her sleep has improved! (I know I am majorly setting myself up for the B&B curse!!).

In other news, my 3.5 year old seems to have gone back to napping. I try to only let him nap every 3 days or so as we are really trying to drop the nap. But this week so far, he has napped Sunday, Monday (just a cat-nap in the car), Tuesday (so cranky that I had to give him a nap), and today (he begged me to let him go up and sleep because he was "too sleepy"). I feel like I am never actually going to get finished with this nap transition!


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## NotNic

Polaris - Thomas is definitely the best sleep expert here alongside Noelle! I love how he knows just how much sleep he needs. Is his naps really affecting bedtime? 

Finlay was very cute that morning. Also it's a really encouraging thing to know that he is happy playing in his cot, so if I want to take a shower or do something before the day starts then in the future I might be able to.


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## dlj2

NotNic said:


> dlj2 - sorry I knew I'd miss someone. I'm assuming you dont want to co-sleep - right? I'd be tempted to be a bit tough with your baby. It sounds like you have a very clever one :) and at the moment coming into your bed is a nice way to spend the night. Have you tried not going in immediately when your baby cries in the night? They might be calling out for company rather than through need. Can you observe from the doorway or somewhere lo can't see you? Alternatively try going in immediately before the cry wakes them up. (I realise this is totally contradictory but we wait and observe F when he's still in a light sleep and its our eve and do the opposite through the night!). Try your hardest not to pick them up. Reassure them in the cot or sit next to the cot to encourage them to lay down and hold their hand or have a hand on their back / tummy. You're probably going to have a tough couple of nights, but with all types of sleep management consistency is key. I'm a big one for explaining to F why his plan isn't going to work :D so if we were experiencing the same thing I would tell him 'Mummy is going to be right here. This is your bed and you need to sleep here. It's not morning so you can't come out yet'. Then I wouldn't say anything else as its the interaction they want. Alternatively CC would probably fix the problem quite easily but I don't think this sounds right for you. Good luck x
> 
> I also forgot to say thank you to the WIO encouragement, so thank you! F is teething badly. 8,9 and 10 all swelling at his gums and he's off his food only eating cold things. We've had some poor nights but Monday was great. He sttn (7.45 - 6am) and I gave him his dummy back to see if we could get a bit longer before OH got up for work 6.50am. Next thing I knew it was 7.25am. I'd turned off the alarm in my sleep and OH was v. late for work. :dohh: We couldn't believe F had slept for that long and we went to check on him. Turns out he hadn't! He was playing quietly and happily with his teddies. Love him! No idea how long he'd been awake for but he didnt cry out or play with his Alfie bear. The rustle of his soft cubes is normally loud enough that I can hear them on the monitor. This sort of morning is just the type I'd like to order. :) Last night not so good. Painful wailing around 3.30am which ended up with nurofen and me waking him up at 6.30am again. I bet he's well happy at nursery today....

Thanks so much for your replies, last night unbelievably she sttn! I couldn't believe it! I'd been very strict with her naps during the day and slightly earlier to bed, today I've done the same so fingers crossed. I will certainly be following the advice you've given if not tho, I'd like to get away from co-sleeping as it doesn't totally fit with me at this age, I'm happy if she's poorly or teething etc but I'm a believer that she's better in her cot.

Thanks again! Will be keeping an eye on this thread such a good one.xx


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## kettle28

Lo napped for 2hrs 5m on his 2nd nap today! Usually 50m max and more often 35-40mins!!

Now, what made the difference? 

In a bigger sleep suit (one with no feet, sleeves and legs rolled up!) or, blanket draped over side of cot?!?!?!


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## freddie

Hello ladies! On stephie_corin's advice I have come to join this thread in the hope of getting some advice as I think I'm teetering on the edge of insanity! I am in definite need of some support from people who know what it's like to have a "wakeful baby" - that's my nice, put a smile on your face, grin and bear it name for my NIGHTMARE SLEEPER!! 

DS is nearly 9 months old and I am running out of excuses for why he wakes so much :( He averages 5 to 7 night wakings I'd say but it's not rare for him to go up to 10 or so on a bad night. He's also recently started to stay up for between 1 and 3 hours at around 1am :cry: I'm bringing him into bed with me at this stage and he seems to sleep a bit better but I sleep terribly as I can't get comfy/ worry about him... So I'm still exhausted!

I have been working on settling him back to sleep in the cot as previously he was rocked/ nursed to sleep for every waking. I read the No Cry Sleep Solution and have been attempting to gradually withdraw the help that we give LO to sleep as wondering if maybe if he could fall asleep himself the night wakings would stop. However, it is proving very difficult to get any further than we have done now. 

I have got to the stage where I can pat him back to sleep in his cot for the first few wakings but once it gets to 10.30pm (which is when I first feed him) this no longer works and he has to be rocked for all further wakings. I now only feed him at 10.30pm and 3.30am - hoping to gradually get rid of the 3.30am one in the hope that it might stop him waking up?!?! Mind you, getting rid of the other feeds hasn't stopped him :shrug:

Our current routine on a "best case scenario" day is

6am - wake, breastfeed
7.30 - Breakfast
8.30am - Nap - 1 hr 30 mins
10am - Breasfteed
11.45 - Lunch
1pm - Nap - 1 hour
2pm - Breastfeed
4.30 - Breastfeed
5pm - Dinner
5.45 - Bath
6.30 - Bed

However, at the moment, he is fighting sleep in the day as well... I spent a good couple of weeks working on his naps before and got them from 20 mins each to 1/ 1 and a half hours. But at the moment he's gone back to waking up after 20-40 minutes and only sleeping longer on my lap.

Sorry for the essay... 

So yep, that's me. Any advice/ sympathy will be greatly appreciated :nope:


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## polaris

Hi Rachel, welcome! Although sorry that you have to be here. Your LO is a similar age to Clara and they sound quite similar in their aversion to sleeping for any reasonable length of time. Except that Clara is able to self-settle (although she doesn't always do so) but it never made any difference to the amount of night wakings so I didn't even have that excuse for her!

From your schedule, your wake times are 2.5 hours before 1st nap, 3 hours before second nap, and then 4.5 hours before bed. I would say that the last wake time is too long and could be contributing to night wakings. I would try to rejig your schedule a bit to shorten the last wake time. I am currently having good success with 3, 3.5, 3.5 - she is waking at 6.30 a.m. and napping at 9.30-10.45 and 2.15-3.45 (approximately), and bedtime at 7.15 p.m. I'm guessing that your LO is probably wanting a shorter wake time before first nap because he is exhausted from being up half the night, that is the way Clara was, she would be ready for her first nap after only 2 hours sometimes, but I have found that stretching her first wake-time to 3 hours has really helped with the overall day-time routine.

I don't know what else to suggest. It sounds like you are making great progress in getting him to settle to sleep other ways than nursing but I know how exhausting that can be. I've recently gone back to full-time co-sleeping in a bid to get some sleep. Clara developed an aversion to the cot and was just refusing to sleep in it at all so I've just given up on that for the moment. And she is actually sleeping so much better - she is even sometimes doing a long stretch in the evenings from 7 to 10.30/11 which would never have been Clara's style, LOL! (OK it's not that long of a stretch but Clara could have fitted in a couple of wakings in that length of time) I do think she likes having more space to stretch out and roll about. I used to co-sleep with her when she was younger and stopped partly for the reasons you mention (not able to get comfortable or sleep much myself) but the difference this time is that it is just me and Clara (OH is in the main bed and we are on a futon in the spare room) and I have the room set up so that I'm happy that it's safe for her so I don't worry about her crawling off the bed or under the covers etc.

What are your views on sleep training involving crying?


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## polaris

NotNic said:


> Polaris - Thomas is definitely the best sleep expert here alongside Noelle! I love how he knows just how much sleep he needs. Is his naps really affecting bedtime?
> 
> Finlay was very cute that morning. Also it's a really encouraging thing to know that he is happy playing in his cot, so if I want to take a shower or do something before the day starts then in the future I might be able to.

LOL Thomas loves his naps! He would literally sleep all afternoon if I let him. However when he was napping every day, it was really affecting bedtime and he would be awake until 10.30 p.m. some evenings which was just way too late for me (as I wanted to go to bed myself and he'd still be awake, not good!). The current approach (of only letting him nap every few days or if he really seems to need it) does seem to be working though - his bedtime is about 1-1.5 hours later on days that he does nap but that's manageable. Once he's asleep by about 9 p.m. I'm happy enough. I just wish he would just be ready to fully drop the nap so that our days would be a bit more predictable! I have to have a totally different evening routine on nap days compared to non-nap days - when he doesn't nap he goes to bed before Clara whereas when he does nap she goes to bed first so it can get a bit confusing for my poor sleep-deprived brain to handle!


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## stephie_corin

Polaris, I'm so happy for you. Go Clara!!! Thomas sounds hilarious. I can't imagine Cully ever begging for a nap! I hope you manage to wean him off naps soon. You and DH need some adult time too!

Kettle, what a great nap! Awesome! Not sure what made the difference but enjoy :)

Rachel! Hi and welcome. I agree with what Polaris has advised. Try the different waketimes and let us know how you go. If your son is sleepy in the mornings, a quick walk in the sun 15 minutes before his usual nap time should help him push through.

As for us, we've reached the point my poor DH has to sleep downstairs. He's just too busy at work to function on broken sleep and Cully is crying when he wakes which is waking not jut me but also DH. I feel really tired today. I'm thinking of only feeding him at 11 and 3 (approx) and rocking him back to sleep the other times. I really want him to start taking more milk during the day and I thought his might help. I don't know if I am making a rod for my own back but feeding every hour is difficult because he won't nurse lying down. If he did that he could feed all night! I don't know if this is a good idea or will just make him hungry and mad! It's worth a shot I think.

Hope everyone is doing well!! X


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## freddie

polaris said:


> Hi Rachel, welcome! Although sorry that you have to be here. Your LO is a similar age to Clara and they sound quite similar in their aversion to sleeping for any reasonable length of time. Except that Clara is able to self-settle (although she doesn't always do so) but it never made any difference to the amount of night wakings so I didn't even have that excuse for her!
> 
> From your schedule, your wake times are 2.5 hours before 1st nap, 3 hours before second nap, and then 4.5 hours before bed. I would say that the last wake time is too long and could be contributing to night wakings. I would try to rejig your schedule a bit to shorten the last wake time. I am currently having good success with 3, 3.5, 3.5 - she is waking at 6.30 a.m. and napping at 9.30-10.45 and 2.15-3.45 (approximately), and bedtime at 7.15 p.m. I'm guessing that your LO is probably wanting a shorter wake time before first nap because he is exhausted from being up half the night, that is the way Clara was, she would be ready for her first nap after only 2 hours sometimes, but I have found that stretching her first wake-time to 3 hours has really helped with the overall day-time routine.
> 
> I don't know what else to suggest. It sounds like you are making great progress in getting him to settle to sleep other ways than nursing but I know how exhausting that can be. I've recently gone back to full-time co-sleeping in a bid to get some sleep. Clara developed an aversion to the cot and was just refusing to sleep in it at all so I've just given up on that for the moment. And she is actually sleeping so much better - she is even sometimes doing a long stretch in the evenings from 7 to 10.30/11 which would never have been Clara's style, LOL! (OK it's not that long of a stretch but Clara could have fitted in a couple of wakings in that length of time) I do think she likes having more space to stretch out and roll about. I used to co-sleep with her when she was younger and stopped partly for the reasons you mention (not able to get comfortable or sleep much myself) but the difference this time is that it is just me and Clara (OH is in the main bed and we are on a futon in the spare room) and I have the room set up so that I'm happy that it's safe for her so I don't worry about her crawling off the bed or under the covers etc.
> 
> What are your views on sleep training involving crying?

Thank you for your reply :) I'm not comfortable with any sleep training that involves crying... So after other ideas!! The No Cry Sleep Solution has some good methods but I do seem to be a bit stuck now... 

I think you're right about that last wake time being too long - I hadn't even really realised until writing our routine down! I like the sound of your suggested wake times. So far today, he woke at 6.45am and I put him for a nap at 9.35... However he only napped for 40 minutes :cry: I tried hard to put him back down for more sleep - he fell asleep in my arms but every time I tried to put him back down he woke up GRR! So, now I'm wondering, if I stretch those wake times but he still naps only 40 minutes, should I put him to bed earlier?!

For example, with 40 minute naps and 3,3.5,3.5 wake times that would make his day:

6.45 - wake
9.35 - nap
10.15 - wake
1.45 - nap
2.25 - wake
5.55 - Bed

Obviously I'm hoping that his second nap will be longer but if it's not, he'll end up with a super early bed time if I use the new awake times. Should I go ahead and do the early bed time in this situation do you think?!

I reckon my OH should sleep downstairs, he so doesn't cope well with the lack of sleep/ going to work... He's done it a couple of times but he says he feels bad to leave me on my own to deal with the baby - maybe I should tell him to do it though, I think it might be better for him!


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## freddie

stephie_corin said:


> Rachel! Hi and welcome. I agree with what Polaris has advised. Try the different waketimes and let us know how you go. If your son is sleepy in the mornings, a quick walk in the sun 15 minutes before his usual nap time should help him push through.

Good plan, gonna try this!


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## stephie_corin

Rachel, how does he cope on his cat nap? If he seems ok you can push him through and go with the earlier bed time, or try a 10/15 minute cat nap before bed to help him push through. I hope his second nap was better! I usually find if C catnaps in the morning it's much easier to get him down for a longer afternoon nap. 

X


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## VikkiD

Lo only had one short nap yesterday finally he was in bed for 6:45 he had one moan around 10:30 but slept till 7:15 longest he as ever done. Doubt I will be that lucky again lol


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## polaris

Rachel, I would go with the early bedtime, Clara has gone through phases of being in bed for 6 p.m. I also find that Clara usually takes a longer nap in the afternoon if she's only had a short nap in the morning. But some days naps just don't really work out no matter what you do!

We didn't have a great night last night, not sure why really, she was just very unsettled and then up for the day at 5.30 which is really not like her.


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## AmyS

A bad night here too - up 5 times. She just didn't seem comfortable last night. I let her fuss for a few minutes longer than usual to see if she'd fall back to sleep, but she was trying to sit straight up in her rock 'n play, so I fed her twice, and rocked her to sleep the other times. I think we will go back to the crib tonight.
__________

Stephie - No one sleeps at our house either when Chloe cries at night, and unfortunately, hubby can't escape it!! And neither can the dogs! I am also trying not to feed too much during the night in hopes that LO will eat more during the day. She just snacks an ounce at a time at daycare sometimes - it's so frustrating! 

Rachel - I don't like sleep training involving crying either, but sometimes I wonder if that's the only way she might learn a new way of doing things? I don't know! I read No Cry Sleep Solution too, and it sounds good, but I still haven't implemented anything from it! My LO isn't quite as old as yours (only 7 months) but earlier bed times have helped a couple of times this week to cut down on wake times.

polaris - Sounds just like the night I had! I brought mine on with that silly BnB curse though! haha


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## VikkiD

Daniel as only had one nap today 10:30 till 11.30 and as just gone sleep at 6:45 not sure what's going on with him at the min was nap yesterday as well but that was 11:30 till 12:30


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## polaris

Steph - that's so frustrating that he won't feed lying down. Feeding lying down is totally fantastic for maximizing sleep. Have you any idea why he won't do it? Thomas never mastered feeding lying down, he would just lose the latch straight away or else continue with a really poor latch and get he would get loads of wind and I would get sore nipples. I absolutely love feeding lying down with Clara though and she rarely feeds any other way really. I would definitely try spacing out feeds if you have to sit up to feed him anyway.

Amy - so sorry you had an unsettled night too. LOL at Chloe keeping the dogs awake at night!

Vikki, maybe he is dropping to one nap? If he's sleeping really well at night time then it could be, although he is very young. What is he like during the day on just one nap, does he seem tired or is he OK? 

Seaweed, how is Munchkin doing? 

Both of mine fast asleep by 7.15 this evening - yay - might even get a bit of a child free evening before Clara wakes up!


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## freddie

stephie_corin - Hes' not terrible after a catnap, just more fussy and clingy really. Second nap was no better, only 40 minutes again. Also we went out to see some friends so he didn't nap til he fell asleep in the car at 2.25 - so about 4 hours of wake time between nap 1 and nap 2... 

Polaris - As the second nap ended up being later, bed time was around normal time but he had a shorter, 3.5 hour wake time before bed. Do you think the longer wake time before nap 2 has an effect on night time sleep or is the time between last nap and bedtime the most important thing? Sorry to hear you didn't have a good night, 5.30 is definitely too early!!

AmyS - I'd definitely give some of the ideas a try, it's slow progress but LO is definitely learning to fall asleep without always needing his "props" (rocking/ nursing) We're by no means "sleep trained" but I'm holding out hope that gentle, no cry methods will work in the end!


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## freddie

Normally he wakes up like clockwork 40 minutes after being put to bed at night but it's been 1 hour 20 minutes and he's still asleep... I'm going to tell myself this means we're in for a wonderfully peaceful night :) LOL.


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## polaris

rachelkt said:


> stephie_corin - Hes' not terrible after a catnap, just more fussy and clingy really. Second nap was no better, only 40 minutes again. Also we went out to see some friends so he didn't nap til he fell asleep in the car at 2.25 - so about 4 hours of wake time between nap 1 and nap 2...
> 
> Polaris - As the second nap ended up being later, bed time was around normal time but he had a shorter, 3.5 hour wake time before bed. Do you think the longer wake time before nap 2 has an effect on night time sleep or is the time between last nap and bedtime the most important thing? Sorry to hear you didn't have a good night, 5.30 is definitely too early!!
> 
> AmyS - I'd definitely give some of the ideas a try, it's slow progress but LO is definitely learning to fall asleep without always needing his "props" (rocking/ nursing) We're by no means "sleep trained" but I'm holding out hope that gentle, no cry methods will work in the end!

I think it's the wake time before bed that is the most important for preventing over-tiredness. Not 100% sure on this, does anyone know for definite?


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## VikkiD

Polaris - yes most of the time he seems ok and doesn't sit still crawling and cruising everywhere he woke at 7:15 this morning slept for an hour at 10:30 and sleep at 6:45


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## NotNic

I don't know Polaris. Maybe Noelle, Twister or Seaweed will be online. I think they know things about wake times. I'm clueless on any official theories. I'm a bit more wing it / trial and error in style :)


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## rmsh1

I have to go back to changing Emma's nappy once during the night as we woke to wet bedding this morning :wacko: She is still waking 3-4 times a night, no matter what time she goes to bed. Trying to feed her a little more during the day, but not really noticing much difference. Last night she woke after three hours, then 2 hours, then 2 hours, and then at 7am due to wet nappy leaking, so we got up. She doesn't even feed every two hours during the day, more like 2.5-3 hours


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## polaris

rmsh1 said:


> I have to go back to changing Emma's nappy once during the night as we woke to wet bedding this morning :wacko: She is still waking 3-4 times a night, no matter what time she goes to bed. Trying to feed her a little more during the day, but not really noticing much difference. Last night she woke after three hours, then 2 hours, then 2 hours, and then at 7am due to wet nappy leaking, so we got up. She doesn't even feed every two hours during the day, more like 2.5-3 hours

What nappies are you using for night-times? Maybe go up a size for the night nappy, it will give you more absorbency.


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## rmsh1

Yeah she is at the end of fitting these nappies. We use treasures. I am trying to finish up these nappies, as we use cloth during the day time. Only disposable at night time. SHe is currently around 6kg, and is wearing nappies for babies up to 7kg, so she can easily move into the next size up, just don't want to waste what we have :haha:


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## seaweed eater

Time to catch up! I'm sure I'll miss someone, but here goes...

*Stephie* - I'm sorry to hear DH has moved downstairs. Hope your nights start getting more restful. :hugs: And that the crying stops -- it's hard to hear them wake up unhappy. Are things still going better during the day with 3, 3.5, 3.5? Where are those teeth?? So funny btw, Munchkin won't nurse lying down either. I haven't met many other moms whose babies won't!

*Noelle* - Are things going better? I hope so :hugs: I hear molars can be really tough. Definitely dreading it. When are you leaving on your travels? It seems like she does adjust well, so I'm sure you'll be able to resolve quickly any disruption that results from traveling!

*Shadowy* - Munchkin is 21 lbs and we switched to size 4 a few weeks ago. Have you started the Huggies diapers yet? I hope you haven't had any more leaks.

*Melly* - Sorry things have been up and down. I know it always takes a little while to adjust, and it's hard when things keep changing and you never get to take advantage of LO's better sleep. I hope you get some more rest soon :hugs:

*Vikki* - Glad things are going well :thumbup: interesting that you had a good one-nap day! Maybe you will be ready to transition to one nap soon.

*Gaia* - So sorry you've had a tough week. :hugs: it sounds like you have good reason to keep blaming teething! He does keep getting teeth! It's when no teeth ever appear that it really seems ridiculous. :haha: And separation anxiety can really make bedtime difficult no matter what, and I think crawling might really be to blame for the bedtime struggles. I'm sorry you are going through this again (or still)...I know it really sucks to start dreading every evening. You already know that this will pass...but really! It will!!! :hugs:

*DJ* - How are things going? I think you've gotten good advice and I hope it's continued to be better! Does your LO have separation anxiety during the day? Mine does, and I know when I stand in his room while he's trying to sleep it seems to make things worse initially, but later he calms down much much more quickly when I'm there.

*Mandi* - I wouldn't worry too much about which nap your LO is dropping. She is at the right age to move to 2 naps. I would try going by wake times for a 2 nap schedule (something like 2/3/4 or 3/3.5/3.5, or adjust depending on how many hours of sleep she gets per day) and see if that causes the naps to extend. It does really quickly for most babies, but not for all -- up until this week mine was having 80%+ short naps (45 min or less) and he still refused a third nap most days, so two was still the right thing for us. But that probably won't happen to you!

*Rmsh* - How are things going? :hugs: I think white noise is considered better than music because it's more neutral and consistent, so it's better at masking other noises and it's exactly the same whenever LO wakes up and hears it. But if music is working then I don't think it's a big deal. I hope you've had some more good nights! 2 wakings is great for an EBF baby her age IMO. I wouldn't go down the road of questioning your supply...you've managed to feed a healthy, growing baby this long so I'm sure you are fine! It's normal for it to be a bit lower in the evenings. What some people do is pump in the mornings when they find they have extra, and then give a bottle in the evening to balance things out. But if just offering more seems to help, then wonderful.
Regarding nappies, I would definitely go up a size. Maybe use the leftovers during the day if they still work for that?

*Amy* - I'm glad for the good nights but sorry to hear about the bad ones! I hope those teeth are out soon and you and LO both get more rest :hugs: it sounds like things might be better on the whole though, is that right?

*NotNic* - I love reading about your sweet boy! <3 I hope his mouth feels better soon! Glad that WIO is feeling like the right option.

*Polaris* - I hope things have continued to go better! :hugs: So glad Clara is sleeping better and you are feeling more relaxed (about Thomas too!).

*Kettle* - Did it end up being the sleep suit or the draped blanket? :lol: I hope naps have continued to be good!

*Rachel* - :wave: sorry you have had to find your way to this thread! I think at this age sometimes they just get too excited to sleep :nope: I was going to give you similar advice about wake times so definitely try that. And if LO is fighting, make sure you are doing something stimulating during every WT...in particular, make sure to give him plenty of practice for any new motor skills (is he working on any of those at the moment?). Short naps are not necessarily the kiss of death if your LO seems rested. Just move bedtime earlier so that the WTs don't stretch too much. Yes, my understanding is the same as Polaris' and NN's, that the last WT matters the most.

*AFM!* Things are pretty great! Munchkin is settling well and usually waking once or twice per night. I've been nursing each time, with the exception of once last week, but taking him off and putting him down awake. I wish there were a way for him to get more sleep at night though...it's often less than 10 hours and I can tell it's not enough for him, but he won't go down earlier most nights and he's already sleeping until 6-6:30 most mornings (knock on wood) so I don't expect him to sleep much later. The evening car nap is a real problem. He's going to be starting full days at daycare next month cry:) so I know our routines are going to change a lot anyway, but hopefully I will be able to pick him up earlier most days and then he can get to bed earlier.

I'm a little nervous, though, about the fact that he has to get used to two new beds in the next couple of months...one in his new room at daycare, and then the pack 'n' play when we go away in August for a few days. He seems to be very attached to his particular crib mattress now. The pack 'n' play is at my parents' house right now and I've tried using it for naps, but he hates it and won't sleep there. I don't want to go through a whole new transition where I have to put the pack 'n' play in his room and gradually get him used to it...it took so long for him to get used to his crib in the first place, remember. :dohh: But I'm afraid that's what we will have to do, and I'm dreading it. Unless some of you have other ideas??


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## Aimee4311

Seaweed-your updates and responses are awesome! Just wanted to throw that out there! :hugs: 

Just an update on us- not nursing to sleep and dropping to only 2 naps was going really well! Until Tuesday. Tuesday, Josalyn decided it was time to get mobile and started trying really hard. As of yesterday (Wednesday) she's officially mobile. It's not a normal crawl, it's a mixture between the army crawl and the worm :haha: but I know she'll get better at it!

On Tuesday, Josalyn had three shorter naps- only about 45 minutes. That night she would not fall asleep because she wanted to badly to nurse! She was crying tears of frustration and she kept latching to anything she could get her mouth on...my shirt, my belly, the top of my chest, my arm (I've got bruises on my arm from that night!) I could tell she needed it to fall asleep, and as soon as I gave in and nursed her, she was asleep!

It's been the same since then. 3 short naps per day and needing to nurse to sleep. 

She's got a lot going on right now, so I'm just going with the flow!


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## gaiagirl

rachelkt - I have to say, those sleep increments sound really good and normal to me for under 3 months! :thumbup: Do you have any prefolds/inserts and covers? I often put an insert on top of a disposable and a cover over the whole thing! Actually I think SE gave me that idea, lol.

Aimee - Sounds like we are in similar spots with all this crazy development going on.

SE - I am so glad things seem to be going well! :flower: 

Sorry couldn't read much past this page, just quickly stopping in! Still crazy today, lots of tears, which is really unlike him...so just waiting this craziness out!


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## seaweed eater

Poor F...hope he feels better soon! :hugs:

Aimee, sounds like a good call. You know J best and if it seems like she is going through something that is increasing her need to nurse, and you are happy to provide that need, then great!


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## rmsh1

gaiagirl said:


> rachelkt - I have to say, those sleep increments sound really good and normal to me for under 3 months! :thumbup: Do you have any prefolds/inserts and covers? I often put an insert on top of a disposable and a cover over the whole thing! Actually I think SE gave me that idea, lol.

Think this was meant for me? Cannot believe I did not think to put a cover over the disposable :dohh: Although the leak was all up her back. Will try tonight, thanks!


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## seaweed eater

Rmsh, we've had one or two leaks with just a cover too, you may want to put something absorbent in there over the sposie :flower: or a wool cover would do the trick.


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## rmsh1

Will put an insert in too :)


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## stephie_corin

Sounds like some good news and not so good news! Sorry to everyone who is struggling.

Polaris, I have no idea why he won't nurse lying down - when we try it goes like this: I latch him on, he feeds for 30 seconds, rolls over and looks around, rolls back, latches on for 30 seconds, rolls over and looks around... Repeat until mummy gets sick of leaking milk everywhere and picks him up. Lol. SE - so funny about Munchkin not liking nursing lying down either. Polaris do you think it's something I should persevere with - it would be so handy if he'd do it! I hope you had a fun baby free evening with DH :) did the kids sleep well?

I've lost any ability to soothe him while lying down. With each wakeup he has to be picked up and rocked or nursed - usually both!

Rachel, I'm sure Noelle has said in the past that the last wake-time is the most important. I'd keep a close eye on his total awake time and try and keep it close to 10 hours if possible so as to avoid a sleep deficit. So if he's already done 7 hours awake, maybe try put him down as close to 3 hours awake as possible after the last nap. Noelle - is this the right approach??

Rmsh, nappy leaks are the worst! We get them reasonably frequently as Cully takes most of his milk at night and pees a lot! I've definitely had luck putting him in the next size up. 

OT- my little chubster has been in huggies size 4+ since 4 months and is now wearing size 5 at night! Lol. 

SE, you might find full days at daycare are brilliant for his routine. I think you said he sleeps reasonably well there during the day? If he's having both naps there it might give him some good consistency. Hugs to you though! Leaving him a full day will be tough!! As for the pack and play, I think you should put it completely out of your mind. It's still 6 weeks to August and that is an eternity in baby time. You may find he's very mobile by then and falling asleep exhausted or is so stimulated by all the new things on holiday he falls asleep exhausted and doesn't mind where he has been put down. Well, you can live in hope! Although I'm sure you are like me and there is no way you will be able to put it out of your mind :) how are you getting to your destination? If you are driving and you think there is no way he will sleep without his mattress, could you pop it in the car and place it in the pack and play?

Aimee, yay for crawling! Congratulations to Josalyn! Is nursing to sleep affecting her night sleep? 

Gaia, I feel your pain quite literally. I'm so sorry F is struggling so much. I really hope things get better soon.

We are having a bit of a nightmare. He's doing an amazing stretch of 3-4 hours at the beginning of the night but from 10 PM -5.30 AM he is waking crying and is really hard to settle. The wakings vary from hourly to every 15 minutes. I gave iboprufen last night and it didn't make a difference. So I'm not sure if it's teething or if he is just so uncomfortable even pain meds don't work. 

He's also taking a monster nap in the afternoon now. 2 hours and I usually have to wake him. I do help him back to sleep 2 times in the nap but its because he wakes crying. I'm concerned this 2 hour nap combined with his 1 hour morning nap is too much day sleep for him. I know it's not for a normal baby but I'm concerned it's throwing our his circadian rhythm or something - or am I clutching at straws?!?

He has such big circles under his eyes. I wish so badly he was sleeping better.

I hope everyone has a great day xxx


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## seaweed eater

I'm so sorry hon :hugs: it is so hard when they look tired and all you want is to help them sleep better! And hourly or less is so so demanding.

I think 3 hours might be too much for Munchkin. He's rarely had more than 2.5 hours since he was tiny. If he were routinely getting 3 hours during the day and not sleeping well at night I would have the same question as you. But the next question is what to do about it. I guess not help him back to sleep the second time...have you ever tried that? Does he calm down/perk up, or does he stay grumpy? Either way I guess it might be something to try for a few days.

What do you mean when you say he is really hard to settle? Is he hard to calm down? Or does he calm down quickly but then not go to sleep? I don't have any advice in mind based on this. It just seems really unusual to be waking up crying that often despite your having given medication.


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## stephie_corin

Thanks SE, he wakes crying and I nurse him first and then usually rock him back to sleep. He's calm in my arms but when I put him down and he usually starts crying right away or wakes up a few minutes later crying. I have to make sure he is in a deep sleep before I put him down - maybe it's separation anxiety too!? I have no idea. He's the picture of health and happy during the day and from the moment he opens his eyes in the morning. 

I do hold him or snuggle him for most naps so he's used to me being there when he sleeps - but he does do the 3-4 hours without me at the start of the night...

He's putting everything in his mouth at the moment and gnawing on it. I'm certain his front teeth can't be too far away. 

I think I'll try and cap his naps at 1 hour each today and see how he goes.

Oh! And I forgot to try and limit his night feeds last night so I will try that as well tonight.


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## gaiagirl

Stephie sounds hard for you too! Soon we will both be looking back on this phase I hope :)

Nursing lying down has literally been the best thing ever for me. There ARE times like at bedtime when F will pull the same stunts as C rolling around and being crazy, but I can usually shhhhhh and calm him into submission. Lol. I tuck his legs up to me and hold his top hand and shhhhhhhhhhh and usually it does the trick.

Is C doing that even at night wakings? For us, night wakings are barely wakings, he just tosses his head around and gets restless until I latch him on and then we both drift back off. This is why I loooooove nursing this way. On our good nights I don't even remember waking up.

I honestly think its worth trying a bit more, because if you could get him latched on sleepily in the MOTN then you wouldn't need to worry about rocking or getting him into a deep sleep and putting him down, you just fall asleep nursing!

Babies are all soooooo different so maybe that's just not his thing but I think it would make your life much easier :)


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## stephie_corin

gaiagirl said:


> Stephie sounds hard for you too! Soon we will both be looking back on this phase I hope :)
> 
> Nursing lying down has literally been the best thing ever for me. There ARE times like at bedtime when F will pull the same stunts as C rolling around and being crazy, but I can usually shhhhhh and calm him into submission. Lol. I tuck his legs up to me and hold his top hand and shhhhhhhhhhh and usually it does the trick.
> 
> Is C doing that even at night wakings? For us, night wakings are barely wakings, he just tosses his head around and gets restless until I latch him on and then we both drift back off. This is why I loooooove nursing this way. On our good nights I don't even remember waking up.
> 
> I honestly think its worth trying a bit more, because if you could get him latched on sleepily in the MOTN then you wouldn't need to worry about rocking or getting him into a deep sleep and putting him down, you just fall asleep nursing!
> 
> Babies are all soooooo different so maybe that's just not his thing but I think it would make your life much easier :)

Your description of your best nights is exactly what I hoped to get out of bed sharing! But instead I have to pick up my big lump (lol) from a sitting position and awkwardly rock him and nurse him :dohh: right... Starting next nap we are going to nail nursing lying down!! You've inspired me to keep trying! 

And yes, every night waking I'm picking him up. It's bad for both of us as I'm sure it wakes him more. I really regret not starting bed sharing when he was younger but he was in the cot by our bed and sometimes bad sharing in the early hours, so he never had to get the hang of nursing lying down. Ah well, live and learn! Next baby is going to be a perfect sleeper of course ;) thanks for this Gaia!


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## polaris

Steph :hugs: It does sound like a bit of a nightmare at the moment. Those very frequent wakings are a killer, especially if you have to properly sit up and lift him up every time.

I agree with gaiagirl about persisting with nursing lying down if at all possible. It is so fantastic for night wakings, I can feed Clara at night now without properly waking up at all and I actually couldn't tell you how many times she fed over the course of the night, I only really remember the wakings when she cries and is more difficult to settle. As I said, Thomas never got the hang of it but that was because of latch issues. Clara sometimes does the pulling off thing that you describe but I am quite firm with her and keep my arm around her to stop her from rolling over and she generally settles down quite quickly.


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## freddie

Stephie - have you tried cushions to help with nursing lying down? LO and I just couldn't get the hang of it for ages but I used a pillow behind him for a while to sort of wedge him into me and now he does it no problem and no cushions needed :) I didn't know about the total wake tome of 10 hours... I will keep an eye on that! Don't know if this is a silly question but would that include the time he is awake during the night?!

Ok so sounds like I need to be most wary of that last wake time being too long... Argh it feels like trying to work out some sort of puzzle! And I swear no matter what I do, whether he has good naps or bad, short WTs or long, it makes no difference to his night time sleep :cry: I know I shouldn't get despondent but I feel I'm losing my resolve! Last night was horrible, he woke his normal 5 or 6 times, was awake for about 2 hours between 1 and 3 and then up for the day at 5.30....

He's napping on me now as he usually sleeps well that way and I just really want him to catch up some sleep.


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## freddie

Seaweed - he has recently started to crawl... I try to encourage him as much as I can to do this throughout the day as I think it tires him out! He does this funny little army crawl that makes him look like a little worm sliding across the floor :) He has lots of stimulation during wake times .

Talking about stimulation - what do people do for calming/ wind down before bed? He used to calm quite easily in the evening but lately he has been going wild! He seems to get this burst of energy after his bath and just want to crawl everywhere/ touch everything... If I pick him up to try to cuddle he pretty much beats me up to climb out of my arms! We have stories and relaxing music but he won't even stay still for his story a lot of the time now!! He's loopy!


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## mrssunshine78

Am kind of scared to update, but will anyway, feel like I'm jinxing myself!! So Jasmine's sleep has improved lots, we had our holiday and she woke at 4am every day (was 6am Greek time) and we thought uh oh we're in trouble when we get home. We allowed her to get back into being at home for a couple of nights before thinking about CC, the first night we tried it I had to go in twice to tell her it was sleepy time, she had about 30-35 minutes of crying, the second night I went in once to tell her it was sleepy time and we had about 20 minutes of crying, the third night I didn't even have to go in as she settled herself within 5 minutes, then last night she slept through!!! She's been waking around 530, but going back off until 6-630, it's amazing!!! We have started giving her a bottle of formula on a night instead of me bf, so it's maybe a combination of CC and the fact that she's not hungry anymore?? Whichever it is I'm so relieved, I'm going back to work in a few weeks so hoping this continues. 

Good luck to everyone, really hope your lo's start sleeping better


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## stephie_corin

I think I have the most stubborn, wilful baby. I lay him down and he did his usual rolling around and then when he realised I wasn't picking him up he got hysterical and was kicking his legs like he was having a proper tantrum. He stopped as soon as I picked him up. I'll give him one side and then lie him down for the second.

Thanks so much for the tips Polaris and Rachel!

Rachel I'm so so sorry you are feeling so down. Don't be despondent - things will get better. A few weeks ago Cully was waking every sleep cycle and by persevering with a good day time routine he's shown me he can do at least 4 with no help from me. Regarding the 10 hour thing - it makes sense to me that if they are meant to get 14 hours sleep each 24 to try and limit their awake time, which is one if the few things we can control (somedays ;))

Sunshine, I'm so glad you had such good progress! Good luck back at work.

Edit - OMG second side worked great! I wedged him with the pillow, put my arms around him, tucked his legs in (thanks to all three of you!) and it worked! I'm just wondering how you change sides in the night? Do you move baby or lean forward to give the other side?

Thanks everyone!


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## stephie_corin

rachelkt said:


> Seaweed - he has recently started to crawl... I try to encourage him as much as I can to do this throughout the day as I think it tires him out! He does this funny little army crawl that makes him look like a little worm sliding across the floor :) He has lots of stimulation during wake times .
> 
> Talking about stimulation - what do people do for calming/ wind down before bed? He used to calm quite easily in the evening but lately he has been going wild! He seems to get this burst of energy after his bath and just want to crawl everywhere/ touch everything... If I pick him up to try to cuddle he pretty much beats me up to climb out of my arms! We have stories and relaxing music but he won't even stay still for his story a lot of the time now!! He's loopy!

Cully is very much like this - I hope the others have some tips for you! The only thing that works in my favour is that he hasn't had a feed for 5 hours by bedtime (his choice) so breastfeeding usually knocks him out. X


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## polaris

Stephie, that's so funny, I was actually just logging on to add to what I had suggested about feeding lying down and I was going to suggest giving him the start of the feed sitting up and then finishing the feed lying down! Clara sometimes doesn't like feeding lying down if she's really hungry and wants to feed fast, she prefers to be in an upright position so she can gulp the milk down! But once she's finished actively feeding she is then happy to lie down and finish the feed and drift off to sleep. And most times at night I think she is feeding for comfort rather than being really hungry, so it works really well overnight. I just tilt myself forward to give her the other boob, takes a bit of getting used to but it's much easier than trying to move baby over to the other side.

Rachel, so sorry you had such an awful night last night. I do think you need to persevere with routine/schedule changes in order for them to have any impact. In my experience, they don't necessarily correlate on a day to day basis (i.e. you can have a rubbish nap day and then have a good night, or vice versa) but over time, having a good day time routine and watching wake-times and avoiding over-tiredness will help with night time sleep too. But you need to give it a bit of time to see any improvement. 

Regarding your question about wind-down time and getting a burst of energy after the bath, I would probably look at whether an earlier bedtime might help. Sometimes (not always) getting a burst of energy like that can actually be a sign of over-tiredness, the baby has gone past their natural sleep window and so they pump themselves full of adrenaline and cortisol to stay awake and it can lead to a crazy energy burst which often has a bit of a manic feel to it. A lot of babies get quite cranky or erratic when they are in this state (happy one minute and crying the next) but Clara doesn't get cranky at all, she just seems full of beans and a bit giggly. It's only by shortening her wake-times that I have figured out that she was actually over-tired because she settles to sleep so much easier after a shorter wake-time. I don't have much of a wind-down routine with Clara, it's very difficult to manage because I have my 3 year old to look after too. When possible I try to bring her into the bedroom about a half hour before sleep time and we listen to some music and play with her lovey for a bit and then she has a feed and goes off to sleep. But often I can't leave Thomas for that long so it's not really consistent.

Mrssunshine, great news that Jasmine is sleeping better! I hope you had a lovely holiday too!


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## stephie_corin

Thanks Polaris! It all worked perfectly until he woke one cycle in ... Cue tears and hysterics until I picked him up, rocked him and then he latched on and nursed again. When we were lying down I tried to offer but he wasn't interested .... Definitely a work in progress. I'm sure if we nurse lying down for every nap from now on he will get the hang of it.

Alternatively I could sit up all night and hold him:dohh:

He has such strong sleep associations - it has to be done the same way for him or he has a meltdown. I know it's my fault but it is so frustrating. Anyway, I'm sure we will get there in the end! Thanks again for the support and tips xx


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## polaris

I wouldn't say it's your fault Stephie, some babies just form stronger associations naturally and really NEED everything to be done in a particular way. Actually Thomas was more like this that Clara, he always got really dependent on routines and couldn't handle it if I did things differently, like even if I did things in a slightly different order, he just wouldn't like it and wouldn't settle. Or another example, he wouldn't sleep without a sleeping bag on even if it was really hot in his room. Clara doesn't care about things like that and despite her difficulty in staying asleep, she also doesn't have very strong sleep associations (although she obviously has some). They are just all different and need different things. I know everyone says this all the time, but honestly I only realized how true it is now that I have two who are completely different from each other.


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## stephie_corin

polaris said:


> I wouldn't say it's your fault Stephie, some babies just form stronger associations naturally and really NEED everything to be done in a particular way. Actually Thomas was more like this that Clara, he always got really dependent on routines and couldn't handle it if I did things differently, like even if I did things in a slightly different order, he just wouldn't like it and wouldn't settle. Or another example, he wouldn't sleep without a sleeping bag on even if it was really hot in his room. Clara doesn't care about things like that and despite her difficulty in staying asleep, she also doesn't have very strong sleep associations (although she obviously has some). They are just all different and need different things. I know everyone says this all the time, but honestly I only realized how true it is now that I have two who are completely different from each other.

Thank you so much! Sometimes it's hard not to think you've failed Parenting 101! DH and I are both very stubborn and I have to check the house in the exact same order every night - lights, stove, door locked etc., before I can get to sleep, so poor Cully never stood a chance really. Lol... X


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## VikkiD

Daniel slept till 4am then woke an wouldn't go back sleep so I fed him then he went back till 7:10, he's been awake since no nap he's tired but fighting it this will be the third day in a row with only one nap if I can get him to settle soon


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## AmyS

Seaweed - No suggestions for you on the beds, but I know it's so hard to get LO's used to something and then go and change it on them! I'm sure he will get used to the daycare bed pretty quickly if he will be there full-time. What did you have to do to get your LO used to his crib? We are working on that with Chloe. She slept in her rock 'n play for so long, and she sleeps really well in that. If I put her in her crib, as soon as she rolls onto her tummy, she wakes up and gets mad! Even if I lay her down asleep on her tummy, it doesn't seem to help.

Aimee - Doesn't it seem like everything goes out the window when they are working on all of the developmental stuff, like crawling? My LO is 7 months too, and she has been trying to crawl in her sleep for the past 2 weeks, so she's been waking very often if she's sleeping in her crib.

Stephie - Sorry you're having such a rough time now! I have no breastfeeding advice! My LO wouldn't latch when she was born, so I pumped for 3 months before I eventually had to switch to formula. Sounds like we are going through some similar things with hard to settle babies! Chloe just seems so angry when she wakes up, and she just fights me, then falls asleep, then cries out, then falls asleep, etc. We did that for 45 minutes last night, but thankfully she only woke that one time.

mrssunshine - Wow, sounds like CC is really working for you! Congrats!

Vikki - I absolutely dread 4am at my house! Sometimes, my LO will sleep through it, but most of the time, she's wide awake!
___________

We had a pretty good night. Chloe is sick with a summer cold, so I kept her in her rock 'n play again because of all of her drainage. I put her to bed early, at 6:30, and I fell asleep at 7:30!! Then, my mom called my cell at 9:15 and woke us both up, so it took me 45 minutes to get her back down. She was angry. She didn't want to be cuddled, but she didn't want to be put down either. Once she was down though, she slept until 5am, I fed her, and she went back down until 6:30. Pretty good, but I don't understand why she can't sleep this good in her crib!!


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## stephie_corin

Amy that's amazing sleeping by Chloe! I don't know anything about reflux but is it possible she has silent reflux and that's why she doesn't like sleeping lying down? Or do you think she's just used to being propped up now?

After rereading my posts today I've realised how bad things have got - I need to do something - I can't keep rocking him to sleep every hour and then more frequently as the night progresses. He woke at 7 (bedtime 6) and I rubbed his belly for about 30 minutes but he got more frantic. I ended up picking him up and he relaxed pretty quickly. I didn't rock though, just gentle swaying.

I'm wondering whether you ladies would recommend:

1) a gentle approach where I pick him up but not rock him, then move to putting him on the bed with my arms around him, with a goal of moving to just snuggling/tummy rubbing/nursing in order to soothe him; or

2) just stop picking him up altogether and soothe him by nursing lying down or snuggling/tummy rubbing. I'm afraid this option may involve a lot of fussing/crying and I can't personally leave him to cry but I don't know if option number 1 will even work.

Has anyone gently broken a strong pick up/rock to sleep association?

Or should I just continue to wait it out and do nothing? I'm so confused. I don't want to do any form of sleep training with crying. But I don't know if things will get better on their own? I find my ability to be rational about this diminishes even further the less sleep I get!!! I want to meet his current needs to be helped to sleep but I need to balance this with my own sanity.

I'm more than happy to help him back to sleep but the picking up/rocking is really hard on me. Any advice or opinions gratefully received.

Edit - I actually came back to delete this post but I'm going to leave it. I feel so foolish and slightly paralysed about this whole sleep situation. Please be kind to me!


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## AmyS

Stephie - I have no idea what her deal is with the crib! I have wondered about silent reflux, but she really has no symptoms of it. I think I'll ask at her doctor's appt today though! 

Personally, I'd go with the more gentle option first...or at least the option that you think you have a shot at working. You can always move to something a little more ideal later.


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## gaiagirl

Stephie don't feel foolish! We have ALLLLLLLLLLLLLL felt that way, unless you've had a magical sleeping unicorn baby who doesn't require constant analysis. Lol. And I don't think anyone here has!

Have you read No Cry Sleep Solution? I think she has some recommendations on breaking sleep associations. I would think maybe the gradual rocking less and less over time approach? I agree that it's a good plan to work on not having to pick him up every time because that makes bedsharing a lot less convenient!

A good (albeit tiny but ill take anything this week) sign: morning nap nursing laying down in my bed and F unlatched and pushed away himself as he drifted off! Lol. Believe me, THIS week that's huge!


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## NotNic

Stephie - you are at that magic week I was when I came here for help. I was at my wits end BUT magically one night he became a different baby. He wasn't a perfect sleeper but our sleep experiences became at least half way normal. I also think around 7mths they start becoming real little people and its hard not to be grumpy when you start feeling like they are capable of sleeping and they are choosing not to. Can you bear going cold turkey on any motion / rocking to sleep? Rather than remove yourself completely, static contact - a nice calm cuddle or jut sitting w/ him on your lap might help break down the association but you're still being attentive. Figure out what it is you're willing to do and we'll help you. It seems hard but they will get better. Not perfect (otherwise I wouldn't still be online so much :haha:) but manageable xx


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## stephie_corin

Amy, good luck at the doctors appointment. 

Gaia, great news on the self settling at nap time!!

Notnic, thanks for your advice, I know we've chatted before about motion addiction on this thread and you gave me some good advice then too! I need to commit to changing his sleep as I've been talking about it for a while.

Thanks to you all for your empathy, understanding and advice. I think I'll try cold turkey on rocking but still pick him up. If he gets hysterical though I think I'll need to rock him - hopefully it doesn't get to that point! I'll report back on our progress but try not to bore you all with nap by nap live posting!!! 

Thank you again all so much. I've read all your responses to DH and he says you give good advice!!

Edit - Gaia, I do have NCSS - it's on my ereader at the moment so I will revisit it tonight and see if she's got any other good advice!


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## freddie

Polaris - Yes I was beginning to wonder whether his burst of energy could be due to being over tired... I suppose I will have to wait and see if shortening his wake times changes that...

I'm feeling very down about tonight's bed time :( Stuck to the 3, 3.5, 3.5 wake times (well, that was the plan) but LO took an hour to go to sleep so has ended up with a 4.5 hour wake time :cry: So presuming tonight will be no better than usual :dohh:

Stephie - My LO has the strongest rock to sleep association ever! He still needs it to fall asleep initially but I can often resettle him without rocking now. I used methods in the No Cry Sleep Solution and would absolutely recommend reading it. I used to have to rock him til he was sound asleep and gently lower him into his cot without so much as breathing across him or he'd wake and I'd have to start all over... I basically very gradually (and I mean VERY gradually!) reduced the amount of time I rocked him for, so that I was stopping sooner and sooner while he fell asleep. I'm still working on it but we have made huge progress when I think back to how much he needed it when we started :)

The No Cry Sleep Solution actually has step by step examples of gradually withdrawing rocking as a sleep prop and she also includes logs and things to help you keep track of your progress... I think I need to read it again and redo my plan as I think I've stopped making progress atm...


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## seaweed eater

Lots of hugs Stephie :hugs: don't feel foolish, and don't feel like it's your fault! I don't have to tell you how much more you know about baby sleep by now than the average mom. Most babies just naturally learn more quickly how to sleep better and their mothers never encounter these kinds of situations. I know so well firsthand that the combination of persistence and alertness/distractibility makes things really tough.

Can you articulate what it is about letting him cry that feels so wrong to you? That may sound like a silly question. But there are so many different crying approaches and you may find that there are some that feel all right to you. Personally I know I had a breakthrough after someone I respect really challenged me about CIO. It made me realize that I'm willing to tolerate making Munchkin angry about not having what he's used to, but I do believe (unlike some who sleep train) that he may have a legitimate _need_ for security and comfort, and I don't want to risk depriving him of something he needs. And since crying can communicate either of these, I'm generally not comfortable ignoring it, but I would be comfortable ignoring it if I were somehow 100% sure it was anger and not need. I feel that as his mother, not his friend, it's ok for me to make him angry. So that led me toward sleep training approaches where I feel that his needs are still being met and I am willing to assume that any crying is due to anger. If anything I am even more set in my unwillingness to CIO than I was before, but now I know my boundaries.

I'm sorry to ramble on about me. I just wanted to give you an example of how thinking through this can help. I also don't mean to exert any pressure to use crying techniques, or to question your opposition to them. Maybe as you think through it you will find that there are no such methods that could ever feel all right to you. That's fine, of course, but hopefully you will at least have more clarity about your options and feel more confident that you have tried everything available to you and now it's time to WIO. It just seems like you keep feeling both pressure to do more than you are doing now and unease with the options that are left to you. It's so hard to live with that tension AND with the sleep deprivation, and I think you have enough insight about yourself that you might at least be able to find a way to resolve the tension, if not address the sleep deprivation.


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## AmyS

Seaweed - Great post! You really explained your thought process well. I agree with the types of cries that I am willing to tolerate. It breaks my heart if she's crying because she needs my comfort, and I don't care what anyone says, I will comfort her until the day I die if that's what she needs. But, if she's just pissed at me for changing up her routine when I know what we are doing is for the best, I can tolerate that. 

Stephie, Rachel, Gaiagirl - I am going to read my NCSS again too, and get my plan in place...for real this time. Of course, it will have to wait until LO is over her cold. Doctor said to keep her elevated until she starts getting better. Back to the rock 'n play tonight! I think I remember one part of the book (unless it's another book, I've read so many), where you just keep picking them up when they cry, making them drowsy, and putting them back down as many times as you need to. Very similar to pu/pd. I think that's what I'll attempt. Could make for some very long nights. From everything I've read, one thing stand out: Consistency is the key for success! I've definitely been consistent with feeding or rocking her to sleep!


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## polaris

Stephie :hugs: Please don't feel foolish. I know that feeling of confusion and paralysis so well. Feeling like the current situation is unsustainable but really just having no idea of what, if anything, you should do about it. I think it is totally compounded by lack of sleep too, I have found myself literally unable to think straight or make even the smallest of decisions without endless agonizing. 

I do agree that the situation would be much more manageable for you if you didn't have to pick him up at every waking. That must be just exhausting - and he's a big boy - my muscles used to just ache lifting little Clara in and out of the cot all the time and I imagine Cully probably weighs more than she does. However I think you need to balance the need to make a change against the difficulty/distress involved in actually making the change. Trying to change things, no matter how gently and gradually, is always going to be more difficult than maintaining the status quo (in the short term), so I think it's always important to weigh it up and decide whether it's worth it. I think only you can be the judge of what method to use. How does Cully react if you pick him up but don't rock him? Does he cry much less and calm much quicker than if you don't pick him up at all? If so, then maybe that's the way to go. However if he still cries a lot even when picked up then I would be tempted to go cold turkey on picking him up but still lying next to him and comforting him in whatever way he will accept. I think seaweed's point about working out what is and isn't acceptable to you is really well made and useful for all of us to think about.

Rachel - try not to feel down about bedtime not going according to plan. Sometimes despite our best efforts things just don't go to plan. And even if everything works out exactly as you planned it, it's still no guarantee that LO will sleep any better than usual. I have had so many nights of putting Clara to bed after a "perfect" day and thinking that she "must" sleep tonight, only for her to wake up as usual 45 minutes later. :hugs:

Gaia - yay, great news on F starting to self-settle! This is what Clara does nearly all the time now although she still goes through phases of wanting to feed to sleep, usually she pulls off and rolls over and then settles herself.

Amy - sorry to hear that Chloe isn't well. Sounds like an amazing night's sleep though! Maybe she's just not comfortable in the crib for some reason. I really don't think Clara was comfortable in the cot, she really likes having a big space to roll around on, she moves around so much in her sleep that she must have found the cot very restrictive!

Vikki - how did Daniel do today? Did you have another one nap day?

Clara was teething very badly today and was actually cranky and obviously in pain during the day (which is unusual for her). I gave her Nurofen at bedtime and that seems to have settled her. It's so much easier to know what to do when it's really obvious that it's teething compared to when you are just guessing about what could possibly be wrong.


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## freddie

AmyS - there are some differences to pu/pd. The thing I actually liked about NCSS is that she says not to worry if you try and try but it's not working on a particular night - just go back to your normal way of getting baby to sleep that night and try again tomorrow. It makes it feel so much more achievable than some things I've read like Baby Whisperer where it seems you are expected to battle the baby's will no matter what. She explains it in a way that encourages you to feel successful if you are putting your plan into place *most* of the time, rather than only if you're managing it all the time iykwim :) 

Good luck with reading/ planning... I'm with you on that!


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## VikkiD

Yes another one nap today but he took it at 12:40 till 2:40 bedtime was 7:30 tonight as we were out. Last night he slept till 4am then woke for a feed then back down till 7:15 it took him ages to drop to two naps so this one nap as just come out of no where and shocked me


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## freddie

Thanks Polaris, I know I shouldn't worry about it not working out today... There is always tomorrow... 

Does anyone else wonder what it is that makes some babies just seem totally unable to sleep without all kinds of props/ enticing/ encouragement and others just sleep through the night from day one?! In my nct group all the other babies just sleep. They are put in their cot and they sleep. Just like that. JEALOUS!


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## polaris

Vikki, it sounds like he is managing the transition really well! You are lucky! He might still have the odd day when he needs two naps but it sounds like you are well on the way to just having the one nap now.


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## polaris

rachelkt said:


> Thanks Polaris, I know I shouldn't worry about it not working out today... There is always tomorrow...
> 
> Does anyone else wonder what it is that makes some babies just seem totally unable to sleep without all kinds of props/ enticing/ encouragement and others just sleep through the night from day one?! In my nct group all the other babies just sleep. They are put in their cot and they sleep. Just like that. JEALOUS!

I like to think that we have very alert and intelligent babies with very strong personalities and huge interest in the world around them, and that their struggles with sleep are just an unwanted side-effect of everything that makes them so wonderful. LOL. 

(Tongue in cheek here, I'm obviously not really saying that these mystical babies who actually sleep aren't any of these things).


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## AmyS

rachelkt said:


> AmyS - there are some differences to pu/pd. The thing I actually liked about NCSS is that she says not to worry if you try and try but it's not working on a particular night - just go back to your normal way of getting baby to sleep that night and try again tomorrow. It makes it feel so much more achievable than some things I've read like Baby Whisperer where it seems you are expected to battle the baby's will no matter what. She explains it in a way that encourages you to feel successful if you are putting your plan into place *most* of the time, rather than only if you're managing it all the time iykwim :)
> 
> Good luck with reading/ planning... I'm with you on that!

Yes, I remember that, she was much more positive and relaxed about it! I'm all for a gradual process.


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## freddie

polaris said:


> rachelkt said:
> 
> 
> Thanks Polaris, I know I shouldn't worry about it not working out today... There is always tomorrow...
> 
> Does anyone else wonder what it is that makes some babies just seem totally unable to sleep without all kinds of props/ enticing/ encouragement and others just sleep through the night from day one?! In my nct group all the other babies just sleep. They are put in their cot and they sleep. Just like that. JEALOUS!
> 
> I like to think that we have very alert and intelligent babies with very strong personalities and huge interest in the world around them, and that their struggles with sleep are just an unwanted side-effect of everything that makes them so wonderful. LOL.
> 
> (Tongue in cheek here, I'm obviously not really saying that these mystical babies who actually sleep aren't any of these things).Click to expand...

Lol, I like it!


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## Beccaboop

Can anyone help me please. I think i need a new feeding and sleeping routine for my 5 month old!

Atm he as a bottle at 6am 
then comes back to bed with me until 8.30 
then as a nap at 10 for about 1.5/2 hours
then i try to get him to nap at about 1/2
then another nap at 4/5pm
then bath, eczema cream applied and bed by 7.30

Atm hes fed at 6am,9 then as we've started weaning he has some 'food' at 12 then a bottle at 12.30 then at 3.30, 6.30 then bath at 7 and bed at 7.30.

We've been advised by the paediatrician to start weaning at 5 months due to weight gain issues and cant drop any bottles. He has 37oz a day so i dont think hes waking cos hes hungry and wont drink water so he must not be thirsty either. 

This routine would be great for us it worked but it doesnt! He wakes up between 3 and 7 times a night and is sometimes awake for about 2 hours at a time but mostly he goes back to sleep quickly if i give him his dummy back or after a quick cuddle.

Also he has started really fighting his last nap and it can take up to an hour to get him to sleep for this nap. Ive been told i should move his bedtime earlier and drop a nap but i dont know how id fit in all his feeds if i did this! 

He is fed every 3 hours and wont go longer without getting really grumpy and wont finish his bottle if i give it to him earlier and obviously with his weight issues he cant be leaving any of his bottles so i dont want to feed him earlier.

Someone please help me fit in 5 bottles and 1 'meal' and 3 naps in before bedtime! he cant stay awake more than 2/2.5 hours without getting very grumpy so i try to get him to only be awake about 2 hours between naps.

I think a lot of it is to do with his eczema irritating him in the night during the night we reapply his eczema cream (when he wakes up we dot wake him up to do it) and because i started giving him a dummy when he started waking a lot and now hes dependant on it. 

Also because he rubs his face at night (im not sure why could be eczema, could be tiredness) so we were still swaddling him but hes learnt how to role on his front and obviously cant get back with his arms in so we're trying 1 arm out but hes just not getting used to it! He just rubs his face and wakes himself up then crys! :( He was waking up regularly before we starting 1 arm out too its not since we started this that hes started waking.

Help! what can i do? I need a new routine and to teach lo to be unswaddled and not rub his face as well as to get rid of the dummy but i dont know how to do any of it!! :(

Thanks in advance x


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## VikkiD

polaris said:


> Vikki, it sounds like he is managing the transition really well! You are lucky! He might still have the odd day when he needs two naps but it sounds like you are well on the way to just having the one nap now.

Thanks Hun he didnt drop to two naps until 8 months so this week as been a real shock today I found is timing better for his nap 12:40 till 2:40 would you aim for that again tomorrow?


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## polaris

VikkiD said:


> polaris said:
> 
> 
> Vikki, it sounds like he is managing the transition really well! You are lucky! He might still have the odd day when he needs two naps but it sounds like you are well on the way to just having the one nap now.
> 
> Thanks Hun he didnt drop to two naps until 8 months so this week as been a real shock today I found is timing better for his nap 12:40 till 2:40 would you aim for that again tomorrow?Click to expand...

Yes that sounds perfect! Good luck.


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## gaiagirl

Thanks ladies, I should be more clear that he was half asleep when he rolled away!!!! Lol. I still consider it feeding to sleep...I just didn't have to try 4 times to get my nipple back without waking him! Ha!

Mannnnn this week is rough.


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## NotNic

Hi beccaboo! Welcome to the thread. :D F was an early weaner too. We started at 16 weeks on GPs advice because of the issues he had with trapped wind, colic etc. and I remember the struggle to fit everything in. Has the doctor looked into what is causing the eczema? Where are you with weaning? What sort of food is little one having? We found that the easiest way to get milk ounces in was to use it in the food. We used to give him porridge made using some of his milk ounces. From 6 mths he had a milky breakfast and one dairy meal - macaroni cheese / fish in a white sauce etc. plus yogurts.

Don't worry about giving up the dummy yet. We started phasing it out from 6/7 mths using it as a 'pacifier' - so he has it when he's upset rather than all day everyday use. Some babies do need to be weaned off because its more disruptive than helpful but oersonallu I don't see the rush at this age. I think the eczema has a lot to do with your Los problemss. What are the drs doing to help? xx


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## seaweed eater

Some more responses from earlier:

*Stephie* - thanks for the advice about the new beds and daycare :hugs: he does sleep reasonably well at daycare at the moment (knock on wood). He's moving classrooms at the same time as he's starting full time, so I'm nervous about that. I'm sure he will adjust in time but I'm afraid of the transition period. I am hoping that an earlier pick-up time will be better for his night sleep, though. Regarding the pack 'n' play...you're right that it's ages from now in baby time; I just feel like if he's going to have the same issue as he did with his crib, we're going to need to start getting him used to it soon! But of course I won't know far enough in advance. :dohh: So I'm not sure at what point to panic! I think it took about a month before he would sleep all night in his crib IIRC. And now he likes to roll around and stick his legs out between the slats as he's SS, and he can't do either of those in the PNP (since it's smaller and has mesh sides). I wish I could put his mattress in it, but it won't fit. :(

I was so fascinated to read that you got C to nurse side lying! Munchkin just doesn't get it at all. He just lies there and protests. It doesn't help that I've never been able to get us into position without two pillows and a rolled up blanket. :shrug: I've given up, since bed sharing is not something I'm really interested in anyway at the moment. Since you guys are doing it, though, it makes all the sense in the world to work on that skill! I hope it starts going more smoothly. I'm sure you and he will get the hang of it.

Is C showing any signs of separation anxiety during the day? The crying once you put him down could certainly be related to that...but sadly I think it could be almost anything else too. :(

PS, I don't know how diaper sizes work where you are, but if they start at size 1 (rather than "newborn"), your size 5 is our size 4 :)

I hope your night went well :hugs:

*Rachel* - don't worry about not getting the WT right. All we can do is try :hugs: as Polaris (I think) said, he'll get used to it, and you'll also learn more about the optimal time to put him down and how much wind-down he needs. I'm sure in a week or two this will be going much better. I find that better naps have gone along with better nights in a sort of general way, not one-to-one. And it certainly makes for more pleasant days. I really hope your nights get better though, that 1-3 waking is so challenging.

I know I've been hearing recently that some babies just find bath time stimulating and for those babies it isn't great to have toward the end of the bedtime routine. We had a maybe similar thing with pajamas and diaper change (we don't do a bath every night yet) -- used to do those right before nursing and lullabies, but LO started really resisting diaper changes and it just wasn't relaxing enough. So now we read 5 books in between (he's really into books ATM) and that seems to have helped.

*Mrssunshine* - so happy to read your update! :happydance: I hope you enjoy being back at work!

*Amy* - thanks for the reassurance about daycare and beds :hugs: we put him in his crib for naps for maybe a few weeks, put the bassinet right up against the crib for nighttimes so he could get used to seeing the bars, then finally moved him in there with his bassinet mattress (the same one he now hates in the pack 'n' play :dohh:) on top of the crib mattress. After a few nights of that I think he was ok in the crib. Our first attempt was horrible though. He'd been napping well there for two days when we first tried it at night, but he would refuse to settle if he woke up partially, or if I put him down completely asleep would wake up crying 10 minutes later. Something like 4-5 hours of this before we gave up. I hope you have a much easier time with Chloe! I do think the tummy rolling and waking upset is a particular phase many babies go through (mine did). It makes things really tough for a few nights but hopefully in that time they can learn on their own to either roll back or at least not get mad.

Sounds like you do know why she can't sleep as well in the crib -- she's not used to moving around so much. It is great that she sleeps so well in the rock 'n' play though. I'm sure once she gets used to the crib she will be a wonderful sleeper. Many babies sleep even better on their bellies once they get used to it.

*Gaia* - That DOES sound huge!! :happydance: I think it is definitely worth getting excited about. Those little steps toward SS can make a really dramatic difference IME. I hope this one does for you!

*Polaris* - sorry Clara is teething but glad that you were able to provide some relief. Hope this means the teeth are out soon. Which teeth are they? Also, how could you tell so clearly that it was teething??

*Becca* - Welcome, so sorry you are struggling :hugs: I'm sorry I don't know much about feeding schedules so don't know what to suggest about that. It does sound like quite a puzzle. What if you gave smaller bottles more frequently, since you said if you give one earlier he doesn't finish it? It is difficult when there are medical issues like eczema at play, since that limits what it is advisable to do in terms of any kind of sleep training. I'm sorry, I hope someone else on the thread has more experience and advice for you :(

Oh here's an idea though -- *Bananaz*, if you're around, am I remembering correctly that it's you who use a Zipadee-Zip with E? Do you think that might help with Becca's LO's swaddle transition and the scratching? I have to tell you, despite having no personal experience with that thing I've recommended it to two other people in the past week, one on BnB and one in person, so it better be good :rofl:

Hope everyone has/had a good night :hugs:


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## stephie_corin

Rachel, how did your night go? Please don't feel despondent. Cully often takes an hour to fall asleep too. It's hard when they won't wind down. It's interesting your boy also has a strong rock to sleep association. I was reading NCSS last night and she really does have such good advice. I'm scared to do a sleep log though - I almost don't want to know! 

SE, thank you for your post. As always, you are sensitive and articulate. I've sent you a PM but for this purpose I can say I've thought about the level of crying we are comfortable with and we will be doing very gentle sleep training.

Amy, I hope Chloe feels better soon! Sounds like we are both in for some gentle sleep training... I hope we aren't still soothing them to sleep when they are 15!

Polaris, thank you. It helps so much to have people who *get* how debilitating this situation can be. I feel like I left my brain back in the delivery room some days! Last night I did no rocking, just picked him up and jiggled lightly or swayed - it did take longer to soothe him but we got there in the end, so I think picking up is still going to have to play a part for a while. If I don't pick him up he really does get hysterical. But I'm so pleased I've already phased out rocking on night 1 - I feel optimistic!

Vikki, I'm glad the nap transition is going so well!

Gaia - huge big hugs. I really hope things get better for you - you've had such a rough time lately!! I think you should be ranting far more than you do. You're still my hero :)

Becca, welcome! I think Notnic has given you some great advice. Please keep posting and let us know how things go with you.

SE, I just saw your new post about Munchkin's bed. Do you have any other sleeping options besides the pack and play? Even a couch turned the other way against a wall?! It might more closely resemble his cot mattress, or could you leave the pack and play and bring his mattress and put it on the floor inside a cheap wooden play pen? I think you are right to plan for this now. I do hope Munchkin is fine in his pack and play by the time your holiday rolls around though! Good luck! Regarding separation anxiety, to be honest we are never separate so I'm not sure if he has it or not.

I have a question for the seasoned bed sharers. Since C has moved into our bed full time I have tried to give him space so he slept better but last night he actually slept in my arms for most of the night in my attempt to phase out rocking. For a few sleep cycles he actually just stirred and I jiggled him back to sleep without getting up. Am I making an unhealthy sleeping habit or is it normal to snuggle all night? I know this is probably the world's most stupid question.

Edit, I forgot to say for one feed last night we nursed lying down! I'm so pleased.


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## stephie_corin

And off topic, I just checked the size 5 huggies nappies and they are called 'juniors' and are for weight range 12kg-25kg. Is that the same as size 5 in the USA and UK? I think they might be made especially for the Middle East as there is a camel printed on the front of each nappy?! Lol. Anyway, since using them these last few nights we've had no leaks!


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## Beccaboop

NotNic said:


> Hi beccaboo! Welcome to the thread. :D F was an early weaner too. We started at 16 weeks on GPs advice because of the issues he had with trapped wind, colic etc. and I remember the struggle to fit everything in. Has the doctor looked into what is causing the eczema? Where are you with weaning? What sort of food is little one having? We found that the easiest way to get milk ounces in was to use it in the food. We used to give him porridge made using some of his milk ounces. From 6 mths he had a milky breakfast and one dairy meal - macaroni cheese / fish in a white sauce etc. plus yogurts.
> 
> Don't worry about giving up the dummy yet. We started phasing it out from 6/7 mths using it as a 'pacifier' - so he has it when he's upset rather than all day everyday use. Some babies do need to be weaned off because its more disruptive than helpful but oersonallu I don't see the rush at this age. I think the eczema has a lot to do with your Los problemss. What are the drs doing to help? xx

Hi thanks for replying.

Doctors think lo has a milk protein allergy as he has the eczema and poor weight gain and hes now on neocate milk and we're using diprobase and a steriod cream as well as oliatum in the bath.His eczema has improved a bit but not loads and he is gaining weight again (it stop completely at one point for 3 weeks) but its still slow so they arnt happy thats why we're weaning now. 

We only started weaning this week and so far hes only having about 5-8 spoons of baby rice or blended sweet potato, carrot or apple at lunch time.So we havent got very far with it yet. There isnt much elsebhe can have other than fruit and veg atm cos of the milk allergy so many things have milk in that you wouldnt expect like baby porridge and rusks and he cant have anything like yogurt, custard either! 

We try to only give him the dummy for sleeping rather than during the day but i find im getting up so many times just to put it back in so i want to get rid of it really! I dont even mind if he has it for naps as thats just a short time but not all night so i dont spend all night putting it back in so i get some sleep too!


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## gaiagirl

Stephie yay for nursing lying down!!!!

F has gone through phases of sleeping more in his own space and less, it just depends what he's going through at the time. When you're preparing to phase him into his own space then maybe worry about that but for now whatever works!

All I can say about last night is wow. Wow. And not in a good way. I wish I had given Advil earlier but waited until 4:30am stupidly.

The good (?????) news: tooth #7 is through and #8 is now noticeable.

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz


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## freddie

Seaweed &#8211; He absolutely LOVES bath time! He kicks, laughs and splashes like crazy and by the time he&#8217;s finished I&#8217;m soaked! So yes rather stimulating for him I think&#8230; Tonight I&#8217;ve tried a bit more time between bath and bed and also the shorter wake time and seemed to go well I think :) 


Stephie &#8211; Last night was an average/ bad night &#8211; lots of waking up between 4am and 6am YUCK. Yep his rock to sleep association is hard work too cos he weighs 27lbs now and my back ends up aching so much when he&#8217;s being difficult to get to sleep :( I still have a dislocated coccyx from giving birth (ouch) so it&#8217;s so not fun!

I know what you mean about the sleep logs &#8211; it&#8217;s scary to see it all written down ha ha but it does help to clarify what you want to improve and make a plan I think :)


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## seaweed eater

Lots of hugs Gaia :hugs: :hugs: you are almost there, this will be behind you soon!!!

Stephie, looks like US Pampers size 4 is 10-17 kg and size 5 is 12+, so I guess they are the same after all! Wow, good for Cully!

Oh and also for Stephie -- I think you'd be able to tell if C had separation anxiety even if you are with him all the time. He'd be getting upset if you went into another room.

Something crazy just happened...Munchkin woke all the way up from a catnap and went back to sleep. He woke up crying and seemed to be trying to SS, so I sat in his room (I sit just inside the door now) and said shh and he fell asleep a minute later!!! This has never happened before.

Oh, I think all of you who were at some point considering gradual withdrawal may have been turned off it by now :p but in case there is still anyone out there, I think one of the really nice things about it is that you get to see what your LO does to SS. I find it really sweet. I'm glad I'm not outside the room missing out on the chance to see him learn this skill.


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## stephie_corin

stephie_corin said:


> And off topic, I just checked the size 5 huggies nappies and they are called 'juniors' and are for weight range 12kg-25kg. Is that the same as size 5 in the USA and UK? I think they might be made especially for the Middle East as there is a camel printed on the front of each nappy?! Lol. Anyway, since using them these last few nights we've had no leaks!

I have no doubt now at all that the BnB curse is real. I made this off hand comment about how the size 5 diapers are helping with leaks at night... And hey presto, we had leak city last night!!!

Gaia, thanks for the advice. I think you're right - whatever works to survive this. Wow, F has so many teeth!! Poor little man! At least you are getting a good part of the teething done within a condensed time frame (I'm trying to look for at least one positive?!?). Hang in there!!

Rachel, you poor thing. Yes, rocking these big boys is such a back ache! 4-6 is our worst time too. I've been holding C since 5am and he just drifted of to sleep (545am). I don't have any suggestions as rocking C back to sleep is the only thing that works for us. Hopefully they outgrow it soon!!

SE, I think you are the poster child for how great gradual withdrawal is as a method for sleep training. What amazing progress you've had! And I agree, watching Munchkin learn to self settle must be really neat! What a clever boy! Go Munchkin!!! C does get upset if I go in another room so I tend to take him with me, so maybe he does have a touch of separation anxiety.

I hope everyone has great naps and even better nights!! Oh and happy Father's Day if you are celebrating it where you are!


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## polaris

Hi everyone. Clara is still teething badly and we had another quite unsettled night last night - however it could have been worse as she resettled reasonably quickly each time even though she woke up a LOT. Seaweed, the reason I am so sure it is teething at the moment is that she is obviously in pain during the day as well. Clara is such an easy-going baby that she actually never cries during the day, so if she is cranky in the daytime it really always means that she is in pain. Also she is chewing on everything but then crying in pain after biting down on things. Poor little thing, I do feel so sorry for them having to go through teething pain. This will be tooth number 5, but I actually think there might be a couple coming through at once.

Beccaboop, hello and welcome! I am clueless about feeding schedules and weaning so I don't really know what to suggest. I agree with Notnic that the eczema is probably contributing a lot to your LO's sleep difficulties and it definitely must make it harder for him to learn self-settling too, it must be so uncomfortable for him. :hugs: It does sound difficult trying to work everything out.

Gaia, :hugs: So sorry you had another awful night. Hopefully you will have a bit of a break from teething now, it has really been relentless for you guys!

Stephie - that is brilliant that you managed one feed lying down! It sounds like he will get the hang of it eventually with persistence. To answer your question about bedsharing, sometimes Clara wants more contact than other times. If she's not teething or ill, she likes her own space, but if she's feeling off then she likes a lot more physical contact. I just go with whatever she seems to want. When she was younger she liked to sleep literally on top of me and I didn't really love that to be honest because I got very little sleep. But she definitely is more comfortable sleeping in her own space now that she's a bit older so if she wants cuddles on a particular night I just go with that.

Seaweed - that's fantastic about self-settling midway through a nap! Wow!! It's so great reading about the progress that Munchkin has made with sleep training! Regarding the pack and play (is that the same as a travel cot?) I remember the first time I brought Thomas away when he was about five or six months and he absolutely wouldn't sleep in the travel cot at all, he was awake every hour (whereas he had been sleeping through until 4 or 5 a.m.), crying and scraping at the mesh sides of the cot with his fingernails. He just hated the unfamiliar cot and couldn't settle. However, he improved A LOT with age and the next time I went away with him at 9 months he slept in the travel cot with no difficulty (maybe a little unsettled for the first night but basically fine). I had been dreading it because I had kept meaning to put him in the travel cot for the occasional night at home to get him used to it but had never got round to it. So I guess I'm saying it might not be as bad as you are expecting, you never know your luck!


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## justmeinlove

Hi all, can I join in? I think I am about to just give up, our baby is 13 1/2 wks and hasn't slept for longer than 2 1/2 hrs since birth...except for two amazing nights at 11 wks, then she got a cold and that was that. Some nights are two hour bursts, some are one hour bursts, some are a mix. It's just hell and I spend most nights and many days thoroughly regretting having her :-( I've stopped believing everyone who says it gets better, which makes me want to claw my eyes out as I Need sleep :-(


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## polaris

seaweed eater said:


> Lots of hugs Stephie :hugs: don't feel foolish, and don't feel like it's your fault! I don't have to tell you how much more you know about baby sleep by now than the average mom. Most babies just naturally learn more quickly how to sleep better and their mothers never encounter these kinds of situations. I know so well firsthand that the combination of persistence and alertness/distractibility makes things really tough.
> 
> Can you articulate what it is about letting him cry that feels so wrong to you? That may sound like a silly question. But there are so many different crying approaches and you may find that there are some that feel all right to you. Personally I know I had a breakthrough after someone I respect really challenged me about CIO. It made me realize that I'm willing to tolerate making Munchkin angry about not having what he's used to, but I do believe (unlike some who sleep train) that he may have a legitimate _need_ for security and comfort, and I don't want to risk depriving him of something he needs. And since crying can communicate either of these, I'm generally not comfortable ignoring it, but I would be comfortable ignoring it if I were somehow 100% sure it was anger and not need. I feel that as his mother, not his friend, it's ok for me to make him angry. So that led me toward sleep training approaches where I feel that his needs are still being met and I am willing to assume that any crying is due to anger. If anything I am even more set in my unwillingness to CIO than I was before, but now I know my boundaries.
> 
> I'm sorry to ramble on about me. I just wanted to give you an example of how thinking through this can help. I also don't mean to exert any pressure to use crying techniques, or to question your opposition to them. Maybe as you think through it you will find that there are no such methods that could ever feel all right to you. That's fine, of course, but hopefully you will at least have more clarity about your options and feel more confident that you have tried everything available to you and now it's time to WIO. It just seems like you keep feeling both pressure to do more than you are doing now and unease with the options that are left to you. It's so hard to live with that tension AND with the sleep deprivation, and I think you have enough insight about yourself that you might at least be able to find a way to resolve the tension, if not address the sleep deprivation.

I've been thinking about this post a lot and also about Stephie's post and trying to work out in my own head how I feel, it's such a complicated area. I am definitely not absolutely against sleep training involving crying but I think for me it's about weighing up everything to see whether it fits for the specific situation. Every situation is so different and every baby is so different. Like with my older boy, I guess I did sleep training with him at four months in that I put him in cot in desperation keeping my hand on his tummy and he settled to sleep in less than ten minutes. He cried but he actually cried much less than he had been crying, he was crying for hours in my arms every single night at bedtime, I finally figured that all the rocking and shushing was totally counter-productive for him because it was totally over-stimulating and keeping him awake. So for him, sleep training was totally the right thing and it involved much less crying than had already been happening. I wouldn't even call it sleep training really to be honest, it was just meeting his need for peace and quiet to allow him to fall asleep.

Clara is totally different. She just wants you there and wants to sleep as close to you as possible. If she has this, she doesn't really cry much at all. So for her, sleep training would definitely involve more crying than the current situation. So it's a much tougher decision. For me, it's only really an option if the situation becomes unsustainable for whatever reason. For example, if I felt her sleep was so bad that it was impacting on her mood and overall development during the day. This was the case when I did some CC with her at 7 months. I think the biggest issue at that time was that she was refusing to nap at all really during the day and I just wasn't happy for that to continue because I felt her sleep needs were not being met. I think if she was my first baby and I could have just napped with her every naptime, then that might have worked without needing to do sleep training. But being a second child, that just wasn't possible in our situation, and I was also concerned about the impact on DS of me spending so long each day trying to settle her and getting stressed when she wouldn't sleep etc. Similarly, I think gradual withdrawal would be a much better fit for Clara than CC, but I just couldn't figure out a way to make it work because I couldn't just leave Thomas and sit in her room for however long it took for her to go to sleep. 

So for me, it was about trying to weigh up the best way to meet her needs and Thomas's needs and also my needs. Having said all that, I'm not keen to do any more sleep training involving crying with her because I really do feel that if I can meet her needs to have me beside her when she's sleeping and that solves the problem, then to me that's a workable solution. But if it stops working and I feel she's not getting enough sleep or I'm not getting enough sleep to be able to be a good enough parent to them during the day because I'm too irritable or whatever, or for whatever other reason if the situation just isn't working for the family, then I would look at it again.

Sorry for waffling on! I just find it really interesting to think over these issues and they are not really the sort of things I can chat about to most people in real life without their eyes glazing over!


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## stephie_corin

Polaris, this is such a great post. You are 100% correct when you say each baby and situation is different. I lean quite far away from cry-based sleep training but my aversion to such sleep training applies to me personally; I'm genuinely happy for my fellow mums who find a solution to their sleep problems using cry-based techniques.

I find it really interesting when you mention that you now have to balance not only yours and Clara's needs but also Thomas'. I would desperately love another baby when the time is right but if baby is anything like Culver, I don't know how I would manage to raise them with the same sleep philosophy. Because I do have to lie down with Cully for every nap and at night time. You're right; you can't do this with a toddler running around.

I do think there is an element of passive sleep training with subsequent children, even if the parents are firmly against sleep training. Unless of course there is a big age gap between kids! But once you have your hands full with one or two others, baby won't get the same level or responsiveness as the first did.

I'm really glad you found something that worked for both your babies. As a parent, that's all we can hope for really... To get to know our children and respond in a sensitive and caring way to help them get the sleep they need. SE and her gradual withdrawal method springs immediately to mind; she's had great success because she knows Munchkin and his personality and decided on a plan of action that works for them. Similarly, I'm finding being close to Cully at sleep times is really having a positive effect on his sleep (he sounds like Clara in many respects!).

This is really very interesting - thank you so much for sharing your perspective!


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## stephie_corin

justmeinlove said:


> Hi all, can I join in? I think I am about to just give up, our baby is 13 1/2 wks and hasn't slept for longer than 2 1/2 hrs since birth...except for two amazing nights at 11 wks, then she got a cold and that was that. Some nights are two hour bursts, some are one hour bursts, some are a mix. It's just hell and I spend most nights and many days thoroughly regretting having her :-( I've stopped believing everyone who says it gets better, which makes me want to claw my eyes out as I Need sleep :-(

Hi hon and welcome. I'm sorry you are having a hard time. Can you post up your day time routine? Let us know how you deal with night wakings? LO is very young and it's normal for them to wake pretty frequently at night but hopefully with a good routine you'll start finding that she sleeps for longer stretches x


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## VikkiD

Daniel slept well Friday night woke for the day at 6 yesterday he had two naps went to bed around 7:30 woke at 3am for a feed as he didnt eat his tea then up for the day at 7am he's already had a nap so we Are going to have a two nap day again


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## Noelle610

We're visiting my mom and Charlie is sleeping like crap :cry:


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## stephie_corin

Vikki, I'm watching your progress with interest! I'm hoping C is down to one nap by a year so that I could return to work in the mornings. Good luck!

Noelle, that's terrible! Why do you think she is sleeping so badly?!? You poor thing! I had a question for you so I'm glad to see you around. Is total waketime the most important thing? Just say you are aiming for 3, 3.5 and 3.5 but baby does 3, 4 should you aim for the last waketime to be 3 so that the total awake time is around 10 hours? I hope that made sense! Good luck and enjoy your visit to your mum's! X


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## Noelle610

I'm sorry I haven't been around! I'm here in Iowa and then I fly to Scottsdale for work, so things have been crazy. I think we're going through a sleep regression at the moment as a result of milestones and a change in routine. She just started walking more confidently and we've been traveling. Lots of wakings. It sucks. I get so scared it's going to "ruin" everything. Really hope she goes easy on her daddy when I'm away for work next week.

I think the importance of total wake time is over-estimated unless you have an extreme variation in either direction. I know I've tried to limit the last wake time if the others are longer and it's backfired! Charlie seems to need a long-ish wake time before bed :flower:


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## stephie_corin

Oh gosh, you poor thing. And poor Charlie! Sounds like she is going through a lot! But it must be exciting to see her walking with confidence!

Thanks for clarifying - I hope Rachel sees this as I think I gave her poor advice (but with a note that I needed to check with you :haha:)

I hope life calms down soon for you Noelle! X


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## polaris

Noelle, sorry to hear that Charlotte is sleeping so badly. I hope your trip is going well apart from that.

Justme - welcome! I agree with Steph, your LO is still very young and there's plenty of time for her sleep to improve, she's not necessarily going to turn out to be a long-term poor sleeper like some of our little darlings! Definitely tell us a bit more about your routine and what you need to do to settle her. There's always great advice and support on this thread.

We are flying to the UK tomorrow to visit my parents, not sure if I'll be online much. Hope everyone has a good night tonight and hope to hear about lots of good sleep when I get back!


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## Noelle610

Polaris, have a great trip! xx


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## rmsh1

justmeinlove said:


> Hi all, can I join in? I think I am about to just give up, our baby is 13 1/2 wks and hasn't slept for longer than 2 1/2 hrs since birth...except for two amazing nights at 11 wks, then she got a cold and that was that. Some nights are two hour bursts, some are one hour bursts, some are a mix. It's just hell and I spend most nights and many days thoroughly regretting having her :-( I've stopped believing everyone who says it gets better, which makes me want to claw my eyes out as I Need sleep :-(

Our babies are similar ages and I am having similar problems :hugs: Emma is 13 weeks old on Wednesday.

BAD night last night. I think I forced an early bed time on Emma. We gave her a bath and I fed her to put her down at 7pm. She fell asleep on the boob, I thought great, she will go down now. Nope crying at 7.30pm, and cried on and off right up til 9.30 when she then decided it was time to sleep. I was so tired, then she was awake every hour from 12.30am :( I was sooooo grumpy at OH, I am finding myself resenting him as he just sleeps through everything. He never wakes up, has had no bad night sleeps since Emma was born. This morning before he left for work he asked if he should put Emma in bed with me, I snapped at him and said no! That wont help me sleep any. Then he got back in bed, with his coffee and lay there a while. I asked when he was leaving, he asked why, I said cos I cant sleep knowing you are leaving! GRUMPY! This is the most tired I have been now, since Emma was first born. It is just not getting better. I might have to go back to the sleep clinic.


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## seaweed eater

Stephie, I hope your night is going well and leak-free! :hugs: And happy Father's Day to your DH if you guys are celebrating that!

Polaris, thank you for sharing your thoughts on sleep training :hugs: it was so interesting to read that. I can identify with what you're saying about its being simpler in a way for a baby who cries a lot in any case than for one who doesn't cry if you just do what she wants. And then it's even more complicated when you don't know how much the sleep training will actually reduce crying long term, isn't it? :( But what you said about weighing everyone's needs and continuing to have her close to you for as long as that's a workable solution makes perfect sense to me. I hope it does continue to be workable and then things improve on their own so you never end up having to face the question. You really have had a long stretch of constant teething and illness...she'll be much older when it's over than she was when it started. Maybe maturity will make all the difference.

Speaking of which, thank you for sharing about Thomas and the travel cot! (yes, I think it's basically the same thing as a pack 'n' play). Maybe there is hope! I guess we'll have the daycare transition before vacation anyway so we'll see how LO handles that. Poor Clara, I hope the teeth are out soon and she's less uncomfortable. :( It's hard to see a normally cheerful baby suddenly cranky! 

Thanks also to both you and Stephie for your support for me and Munchkin, I really appreciate it! <3 Stephie, I honestly think you're giving me too much credit, though. The previous time I thought we were using the gentlest possible method that would actually work, but it really was a disaster compared to this last attempt. I do feel I learned more about my LO in the process, so maybe it was because of that...or maybe we were just luckier the second time!
Also, Munchkin can't be the poster child for gradual withdrawal since I'm not willing to finish it at the moment :haha: it essentially ends in CIO and I'm still not up to that right now. I'm sure we will get there sometime before he goes to college, though, so you could call it _very_ gradual withdrawal! :rofl:

Finally -- Polaris -- have a wonderful time in the UK! :thumbup:

Justme, welcome :hugs: I am sorry to add to the chorus, but it really DOES get better! That time can be really tough as you head toward WW19/the four month regression, but things will change so much in the next few months, your LO could come out of it sleeping just great! For now, there are lots of very knowledgeable mamas on this thread so hopefully we'll find a way to make things better so you can hang in there.

Noelle :hugs: I'm so sorry things are rough right now! I hope Charlie sleeps well for your DH too. I am sure things will get better again after the developmental stuff has calmed down. But I hope in the meantime it doesn't get too bad.

Vikki, did you end up with two naps? I don't think it's a big deal if you do every so often as you are going through the transition.

Rmsh, I'm so sorry things are so rough :hugs: 3-4 months is so challenging. You think since you no longer have a newborn things are going to be better, but then they are worse, while other babies your LO's age don't seem to be struggling at all. I completely understand your feelings toward your OH. It's hard when you are alone with something like this. Is there any way he can share the load? Or is it on you because he's working, or because you're nursing?


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## stephie_corin

Polaris, have a great trip!!

RMSH, hugs to you. I know that feeling of irrational grumpiness all too well! My DH is also a heavy sleeper and its tough when you are up with baby and they are snoring away.

SE, you're doing a fantastic job - and so what if you are still sitting by his door when he is in college?:haha: how many night wakings is he doing now? How is bedtime?

As for us, I wanted to wait until the end of the week to report back. Overall I think we've had some very positive improvements but last night was very hard. I think it's teething again and I found him twice crawling in his sleep!!! I'm so glad we put the mattress on the floor. This shocked me as in 7.5 months he has never even rolled over in his sleep let along got in all fours and moved to the other side of the bed... He also bumped his head on the wall trying to crawl forward :dohh:

Anyway, tonight is another night!


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## seaweed eater

1-2 NWs. Bedtime has been...anywhere from pretty good to bizarrely good? A couple times he has lain in bed quietly with his eyes open for several minutes before simply falling asleep. I really have never seen anything like it.
You trying to get me cursed, friend? :haha:

I'm glad to hear things are going better for you guys on the whole :hugs: what are you doing now in terms of picking up/rocking? Sorry you had a tough night last night. The crawling at least should hopefully calm down soon :hugs: hope you are hanging in there ok.

Shelby, if you're out there, I've been meaning to ask you how things are going?? :hugs:


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## rmsh1

Thanks ladies, I read all your posts, though most babies are older than mine. The experience might help me sort things with my LO before she gets too much older.

SE yes the load is really on me at night, as OH works but also simply because he just does not wake up! I would have to wake him anyway, and then wait for him to warm a bottle while Emma cries (that is if she would even take a bottle, which she wont right now). It is just easier for me to nurse her. If he gets a proper job any time soon, we will at least be able to move out of this one bed place sooner than October, and Emma can have her own room, then her thrashing about would not keep me awake like it did last night.

Have a great trip Polaris!


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## seaweed eater

Yeah, heating up a bottle at night never seems like a good option when you could nurse. Although one thing I didn't realize when LO was younger is that EBM keeps at room temp for 6 hours, so if you happen to have a chance to pump right before you go to bed, you can just keep the bottle out. I know it sucks when you would have to wake up anyway though :( I totally understand why it might not be worth it to get OH involved if you are nursing every time.


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## stephie_corin

Lol! Sorry SE I shouldn't have asked! That's amazing :) you have done such a great job! That's all I'll say on the matter - BnB curse be gone!:haha:

You know, before last night we'd done no rocking AT ALL but last night I rocked him for hours. I hope I haven't undone all my good work. He was really uncomfortable and wouldn't fall asleep. I finally gave paracetamol at 3am. No sign of any teeth though?!?

RMSH, hang in there my friend. This will pass, I promise. I know it doesn't help now. One thing I read was when LO wakes up and is crying and you can't resettle them, try and give them a gentle kiss on the forehead. It won't help with resettling but it will help your mood. I can find myself getting very frustrated with Culver some nights but a little kiss is all it takes to remind me he isn't doing it on purpose and he is my son and I love him no matter what xxx


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## rmsh1

We are still trying to get Emma to take a bottle, then I will try expressing at night again. :)


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## rmsh1

stephie_corin said:


> RMSH, hang in there my friend. This will pass, I promise. I know it doesn't help now. One thing I read was when LO wakes up and is crying and you can't resettle them, try and give them a gentle kiss on the forehead. It won't help with resettling but it will help your mood. I can find myself getting very frustrated with Culver some nights but a little kiss is all it takes to remind me he isn't doing it on purpose and he is my son and I love him no matter what xxx

Yes that always helps. I was so tired when we got up at 7am, but I popped her onto the change table and she gave me a beautiful smile :)

Emma got weighed today too - 6.17kg (13.6pounds). Nothing wrong with her weight gain!


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## VikkiD

We did end up with two naps again yesterday but both were only short he slept fab though 7:30 till 6:30.
We are doing the switch to cows milk and this morning he's turned his bottle down its 4oz of formula 3 of cows milk will see if he takes it in a bit


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## VikkiD

VikkiD said:


> We did end up with two naps again yesterday but both were only short he slept fab though 7:30 till 6:30.
> We are doing the switch to cows milk and this morning he's turned his bottle down its 4oz of formula 3 of cows milk will see if he takes it in a bit

Just editing he's drank his bottle now :)


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## AmyS

gaiagirl - Glad the teeth are finally coming through! Maybe some peace for you ahead!

seaweed - That is awesome you saw Munchkin SS!!!! All of your hard work, and to see him learning that skill is amazing!

polaris - Glad that you could resettle Clara quickly, even though you were up a lot! Teeth suck, and we don't even have any yet on my end! I thought we were getting one through last week, and then nope! Love your explanation of what kind of sleep training worked for each of your kids...that's great that you can figure out what each of them needs so clearly! I am still trying to figure that out!

Noelle - Sorry you're having such a rough time right now! I was just reading about a 13 month regression last week. And off topic, but where in Iowa were you? That's where I am from! 

rmsh1 - Sorry you are having a terrible time! I resent the hubby too sometimes, since I do 100% of the night time with our LO - and then he has the nerve to claim that he didn't sleep either...blah, blah, blah!


Stephie - Crawling in his sleep! That is so funny but frustrating! I have caught Chloe trying to, but she doesn't know how yet, so she just gets frustrated and wakes herself up.

Vikki - Great night of sleep!
_____________

So, for the past 2 nights, I've tried to put Chloe down, feeding to sleep as usual. She will be half asleep, then she will get really squirmy, her eyes will pop wide open, and she starts grinning at me! Wide awake! So, it's taking longer than usual to get her down. Then, she's very unsettled the rest of the night. I think I got 2 hours of sleep last night. 

Her night wakings are getting worse. I remember telling Stephie that she would fight me sometimes when I'd pick her up, and I'd just bounce her to get her back to sleep. Now, she is taking longer to resettle. And, she is fighting me harder. It's like she doesn't want me to hold her at all. So if I put her down, she screams and sobs. I have no idea what she wants. Most babies want their moms, and are soothed by their moms, but not Chloe. I just barely hold her and rock her and have to wait out the storm. She alternates between crying out and sleeping for about an hour before I can put her down, if I'm lucky - sometimes it's 2 hours. 

I definitely think we are ready to start teaching some self soothing, but now I'm unsure of what method will work for her. In NCSS, you pick LO up and soothe until drowsy, then put back down. What do you do with a baby you cries out when you pick her up and pushes against you? She won't let me do anything to soothe her. I'm trying not to take it personally, but it is hurting my feelings!


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## stephie_corin

Amy, as you know I also had this problem with Cully a few weeks back. Nothing would settle him. He would thrash around and push me away. I think i even used the phrase 'none of the usual tricks are working' - it was horrible and I felt helpless. For us it was a case of waiting it out. Things are much better now from a soothing perspective.

I would definitely encourage you to try and teach her to self soothe though, and not follow my example of paralysis!

When she's fighting you what happens if you place her back down for a few moments to calm? I found this worked with Cully sometimes.

If its any consolation, Cully was doing this right before he finally figured our crawling so she could be working on this.

Don't take it personally. You are an awesome mamma. Some babies are just more highly strung and find it harder to wind down. Culver has just spent the last 25 minutes whining and tossing and turning in my arms because he wants to sleep but can't switch off. 

One thing occurred to me; did you say day care did CIO for naps? I wonder if something like what SE is doing where you give her space but stay in the room and comfort her, or a PU/PD would work, as she's semi used to falling asleep by herself during the day. What is her routine like now?

Big hugs, I'm so sorry that you are going through this.


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## AmyS

Stephie - If I put her down, she really comes unglued! Instead of intermittently crying, she all-out sobs/screams. Last weekend (I think), she did this for 1 1/2 hours. Very hard to settle at that point. I remember when Cully was going through this, and that gives me hope that this is just a phase and it shall pass! She is definitely trying to figure out the crawling thing - hope it happens before I pass out from exhaustion at work!

Daycare has done CIO for naps. I haven't changed her routine at all, since I know I have to be consistent once I do. She is still fed to sleep and then I either rock her or feed her at her night wakings. Or bounced if she's really hard to settle. She's pretty much over her cold now, so I think tonight I'll try putting her down awake and see what happens. I need to detail it out though, so I know exactly what I'm going to do when she cries, and exactly what I'm going to do when she wakes up during the night, etc...otherwise, I will fall back into old habits. 

I'm trying not to take it personally, I know what she's going through is either developmental or my fault (sleep associations). This is just the first day in a long time (surprisingly!) that I feel somewhat depressed about the whole thing.


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## stephie_corin

I wish I could give you an actual hug. Polaris wrote something really nice to me a few days ago when I was saying Cully's crappy sleep was my fault. I'll try and find it for you.

Honestly, we've had slow progress but its been progress none the less. The biggest factor has been getting him on a good day routine. Some babies can wing it with naps during the day and sleep fine but I think if you've got a bad night sleeper, having a good day routine helps immensely. Does she do one nap at home? Even if the first nap is awful and short, you could encourage her to take a longer afternoon nap. Then slowly but by bit break down your sleep associations. (That is, of course if you want to WIO). There are other options available to you, as you know.

Hang in there sweetie.


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## stephie_corin

polaris said:


> I wouldn't say it's your fault Stephie, some babies just form stronger associations naturally and really NEED everything to be done in a particular way. Actually Thomas was more like this that Clara, he always got really dependent on routines and couldn't handle it if I did things differently, like even if I did things in a slightly different order, he just wouldn't like it and wouldn't settle. Or another example, he wouldn't sleep without a sleeping bag on even if it was really hot in his room. Clara doesn't care about things like that and despite her difficulty in staying asleep, she also doesn't have very strong sleep associations (although she obviously has some). They are just all different and need different things. I know everyone says this all the time, but honestly I only realized how true it is now that I have two who are completely different from each other.

Amy if Polaris was around she would say the same to you :hugs:


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## AmyS

Stephie - Thank you so much!!! I do appreciate all the kindness!!! 

I will have no luck with a good day routine because of daycare, unfortunately! She usually doesn't nap at home during the week because she's there all day. She ends up overtired 95% of the time. I feel really bad for her, and wish I had other options for daytime. She is so cranky for them, and I know it's just because she's tired. I think my only option is to make sure she gets a good night sleep and good naps on the weekend. 

I was hoping that if I could get her night into shape, that her daytime would magically get better!


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## stephie_corin

Ahh Amy I feel for you. I hope someone else has some good ideas for you xxx


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## gaiagirl

Amy I was going to say...sounds like overtiredness! F has also been doing that a bit as he learns to crawl/teeth etc. But if he gets overtired it is a nightmare. I have to wrestle him into submission... :haha:

I feel like I am probably missing some of your info but if she isn't napping well, maybe try earlier bedtime to see if catching her earlier cuts down on the overtiredness?


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## AmyS

gaiagirl - haha, it does feel like wrestling! If I try to hold her too tightly, she really gets mad! Last night, I knew we were going to have a bad night. Her last nap was too late, so bedtime was all messed up. I had the most luck this week when I moved bedtime up to 6:30, so I think I'll try that again tonight, along with our new, improved routine.


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## Noelle610

Amy, my mom lives in Iowa City, I love it. 

I'm off to Scottsdale for work until Thursday. Really hope Charlie sleeps well for daddy. And hope I can STTTN!


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## AmyS

Noelle - Very jealous! We are huge Hawkeye fans!! Hope you get some good rest while you are away...hopefully Charlie works out her restless nights and is back to STTN when you get home.


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## freddie

Evening all... Just reading through all the posts I've missed over the weekend - you're all so knowledgeable :flower: I'm a bit confused on the wake time thing now:



Noelle610 said:


> I think the importance of total wake time is over-estimated unless you have an extreme variation in either direction. I know I've tried to limit the last wake time if the others are longer and it's backfired! Charlie seems to need a long-ish wake time before bed :flower:




stephie_corin said:


> Oh gosh, you poor thing. And poor Charlie! Sounds like she is going through a lot! But it must be exciting to see her walking with confidence!
> 
> Thanks for clarifying - I hope Rachel sees this as I think I gave her poor advice (but with a note that I needed to check with you :haha:)

Sooo... Should I still aim for 3,3.5,3.5 but if he's awake longer earlier on in the day, still keep the 3.5 at the end of the day? Aaaa baby puzzles! 

I have a question for anyone that co sleeps... I put LO down in his cot at the start of the night but he is now in with me more and more and always in with me for the second half of the night. I don't have a guard rail so I have pushed his cot up next to my bed to stop him rolling out.

This morning I woke up to a thud and cry and LO waas on the floor at the bottom end of the bed :cry:

He had obviously woken up, been quiet enough not to wake me up (that's never happened before!), turned himself around and crawled to the bottom of the bed (which the cot bars don't reach to) and fallen off... :dohh:

He was absolutely fine the second I picked him up and had no bumps or marks so didn't seem to have actually hurt himself. But now I don't know what to do?! Do they do guard rails the whole length of an adult bed? I've only seen shorter/ child size ones. I need a way to contain my ninja baby!!


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## stephie_corin

Hi Rachel! That's the way I read Noelle's advice - if LO is awake longer first or second waketime, still aim for 3.5 :)

I put our mattress on the floor and have the cot side-carred on the lowest setting. Sorry to hear about your little man!!! If its any consolation I remember reading falls from 1-2 feet (so bed height and lower) are usually fine, even if on a hard floor but falls from 3 feet (so high chair height etc) are more to worry about.

I'm loving co-sleeping and find Culver is sleeping much better. I hope it works for you guys too xxx


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## gaiagirl

Losin it here a bit this week ladies...hope I can hold it together until this phase passes...

My right nipple is soooo sore from biting...


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## seaweed eater

Aww Amy big hugs. :hugs: Please don't take it personally. Mine is similar and always has been, though he's actually very cuddly during the day. Also don't blame yourself! We all do our best to get through the challenges of having a newborn, and some babies never end up having an issue with these associations. If things that usually work are not working, then I'm sure it's mostly developmental. But it's possible that you are also just learning about how she likes to settle to sleep. And that's good!!

I can understand that you are stuck when it comes to naps at daycare. Just make sure you are doing the best you can at home and at nights. :hugs:

Noelle, have a great trip! I hope you get some rest and Charlie does well with dad at home!!

Stephie, so glad to hear that cosleeping is working well for you guys :hugs:

ANY TEETH, ANYONE? I can't wait to congratulate someone on a new tooth and hopefully a respite from teething! Come on babies!


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## seaweed eater

Cross posted, Gaia. Hugs!!! :hugs: :hugs:
Can you get any extra support until this passes? You are so strong and you're doing such a great job.


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## Aimee4311

Rachel- we've got a similar set up as you. Could you get the shorter bedrails and put one where the crib ends so its extended to the foot of the bed? I'm worried about the same thing happening actually, and we have hard tile floors. So we're about to buy a full sized mattress for Josalyn and I to put on the floor. We'll all be more comfy this way and I won't have to worry about her hurting herself. Plus, her crib converts into a full sized bed so once she's ready, we'll already have her big girl bed! :)

Gaia- :hugs: when Josalyn first cut her 2 teeth she bit me several times, but twice that counted. Made both sides bleed. :nope: thankfully she stopped biting right after! I hope yours start feeling better, I know it sucks! :(


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## gaiagirl

Thanks ladies! 

DH tried rocking after yet ANOTHER bedtime fail but we cut it after 15 min of crying.

He also sobbed hysterically for an hour on a long car ride today...and I had a little meltdown before dinner.

Just all around lots of tears today!

This is one hell of a hard job. I have a science degree and a teaching degree AND teach teenagers math and science and raising a baby makes that all seem ridiculously easy and low stress...


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## seaweed eater

An hour of sobbing in the car?? Poor both of you :hugs: I hope he surprises you and sleeps really well tonight!!


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## gaiagirl

It's funny, lately he's been sleeping very well from like 9pm-8am, basically when I'm in bed with him. (Probably cursed myself now though, great)

It's any time I'm NOT with him like naps or evenings that are ridiculous.

Could sep anxiety cause that!?! He's impossible to get off the boob and into the crib!

Ahhhhhhh!


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## seaweed eater

I think separation anxiety could cause that!


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## stephie_corin

gaiagirl said:


> It's funny, lately he's been sleeping very well from like 9pm-8am, basically when I'm in bed with him. (Probably cursed myself now though, great)
> 
> It's any time I'm NOT with him like naps or evenings that are ridiculous.
> 
> Could sep anxiety cause that!?! He's impossible to get off the boob and into the crib!
> 
> Ahhhhhhh!

Cully is like this too! I was getting a 4 hour stretch but no more; I have to lie with him for naps and its up and down every 45 minutes until I go to bed! Gaia hang in there, you can do this. I echo SE - you are strong and doing an amazing job!! I have a couple of degrees too, and work as a lawyer in a high stress job. Baby = much more work and stress!

It's positive he is sleeping well at night, but it doesn't make days easier.... Was he hungry or tired in the car? Or just out of sorts? :hugs: one day you will look back on this and the sleep deprivation and stress will be a warm, fuzzy memory.

SE, no teeth here but I have a very miserable baby who thinks 2-4 am is the best time for a non-stop crying session. I'm sure one will pop through soon?!? How about you? Any teeth for Munchkin?


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## gaiagirl

He was tired, I stopped three times and he wasn't into nursing but I definitely planned the drive over nap hoping he would sleep...which he did after exhausting himself screaming. It was so awful, definitely a good reminder for me that there is no way I could do sleep training that involved not picking him up. Every cell in my body was screaming to pull over and cuddle him...which I did and it made the drive that much longer! Argh!

Sorry about your MOTN party! Poor C! Hope one breaks soon and faster and more efficient than for F!


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## stephie_corin

Gaia you poor thing. How stressful for you. In some ways I'm lucky that c won't nap in the car - it takes a lot of planning but we are never in the car when he is tired or hungry if we can help it. We have a lot of quick outings! Sending you lots of hugs mamma. You'll get through this!!! X


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## stephie_corin

I have a quick question about naps - I can control Culver's naps to some extent by rocking or feeding him back to sleep. Each day varies though - some days it's 2 x 1 hour nap, sometimes a short one in the morning and a long one in the afternoon or vice versa. Is there an optimum napping pattern? Say, am I better giving him a good morning sleep and a shorter afternoon nap? Or should I just go with the flow? Sometimes his afternoon nap can go 2+ hours and my intuition tells me this is too long so close to bed!? Thanks!


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## AmyS

Seaweed - Thanks for the hugs, much needed! Chloe is very cuddly during the day too. It's just those silly night wakings, and I think I figured out, that it's only when she's overtired that the night wakings are that bad. I put her to bed earlier last night, and we had a much better night all the way around. 

Gaiagirl - Hope things start getting better soon! That sounds rough! I would have pulled over to cuddle too, I can't bear to listen to Chloe cry for too long. And I have to say - Wow, math and science! That's impressive!

Stephie - Glad cosleeping is going well for you! Chloe does not like it when I try to lay her down in bed with me in the morning. She prefers it if I stay awake rocking her in the chair while looking down lovingly at her...haha. (Have I ever mentioned that she's a diva? I'm sure I'll be peeling grapes for her someday.) 

As for naps, will it depend on the baby? I have a friend with a 9 month old that cat naps in the morning and takes a 2-3 hour nap in the afternoon (from 1-3 or 4), then goes to bed at 8pm. That seems to work for them. I think if I could get Chloe on a good schedule though, she would do better with a more even split - 1 1/2 in the morning and the same in the pm. She gets too cranky on cat naps.
_________

To bed early last night, and we had a better night. Not the best, but definitely doable! I am still working on my upcoming sleep training plan. I'm trying to WIO a bit, to see if we are working our way out of wonder week 26 yet, and I didn't want to start last night when I was exhausted. But, I'm sure that's where we are headed. I'm leaning towards the Sleep Lady Shuffle. I think that would work better than trying to go slowly with Chloe. I've been learning a lot about her personality over the past few weeks!


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## seaweed eater

Aww Gaia, I'm so sorry. It is so awful to see them scream until they exhaust themselves. :hugs:

Stephie, I'm really sorry you are having MOTN parties (well, "parties"). :hugs: That is such a tough time to be awake with an unhappy baby. No teeth here either! To your question about naps, I think they eventually drop the first nap, so a shorter first and longer second nap probably puts them in the best position to do that, but that's a long way off. Personally I just go with the flow. As long as the WT after the second nap is sufficient, I don't think it's a problem in terms of bedtime to have that be the long one. But I would cap any single nap at 2 hours anyway.

Amy, I'm glad to hear you had a better night! :thumbup: Overtired really does make things worse. I really hope the Sleep Lady Shuffle works well for you if you end up needing to try it. :hugs:


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## gaiagirl

Thanks ladies. Better day so far. Sticking close to home and REALLLLY trying to nail down this 2 nap thing. Plus early bed...which I'm super nervous about because it has NOT been working lately.

So far:

Up at 7:15
Nap 9:45-? He woke at 10:30 clearly tired so I rocked him and he's asleep on me now at 11:15.

Nap 2 around? 2:30 or 3 maybe? Hopefully until 4...

Bed at 7:30/8...

That's the plan!!!!!!!!


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## seaweed eater

Sounds good :thumbup: I hope it goes well!!


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## stephie_corin

Amy, so glad you had a slightly better night! I'll keep my fingers crossed you see the end of ww26 soon!this is such a great age when you start to see their little individual quirks come through! Thanks for the nap info... I think Cully tends to do better on an even split too.

Gaia, sounds like a great plan! It's not ideal having to hold them for naps but at least they get the sleep they need. See if you can find a comfortable way to hold him so you can close your eyes and rest. I've been holding my little man since 4 am and every time I shift to get comfortable he wakes :dohh: good luck! I do hope he gets used to 2 naps, you'll have so much more freedom in the day! 

SE, Munchkin will have one tooth and Cully will have two teeth until they start university at this rate! Thanks for the napping info my friend. My dilemma is that he sometimes wakes at 530 for the day, takes a short am nap and then leaves me with the choice of extending his last nap or doing bedtime at 4pm. Lol. Once he gets past the 1.75 hour mark he seems to slip into a really deep sleep and his hard to wake. I agree though, over 2 hours is just too long. It's interesting what you say about dropping naps. I might try and encourage this napping pattern but do a catnap in the morning and aim for 1.5ish in the afternoon.

No MOTN parties here :happydance: but lots of wakeups, he just seems very unsettled at the moment.


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## gaiagirl

Stephie thats good to not be up for long periods but hoping he feels more settled soon, those nights tire me out when baby is constantly restless.

Last night it was my DH that was restless! I had to kick him out at 4:30 because he was disturbing F and I sooooo much! Lol. The baby slept much better than him!

Naps went great today. 9:30-11 and 2:30-4. Doing bed now at 7:45 and he's out, I'm just lying with him in my bed.

I think I've been trying to transfer him or unlatch and leave too early lately. He had a phase where he was SO easy to put down that I got used to it and now I get antsy and impatient so much sooner! But I'm going to just relax and lay here awhile and try to sneak away later...much better than a bedtime battle!

My dilemma now is that he's getting mobile! He's super slow and vocal so I always hear on the monitor as soon as he's awake BUT I feel nervous about leaving him in my bed!

I have a foam magic bumper on one side and I pile pillows on the other, but still...the clock is ticking on how long this solution will work!


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## seaweed eater

Stephie, what about a mini catnap in the afternoon on those days? Like 10-15 minutes. And I'd aim for maybe a slightly shorter than usual last WT in that case. So if you usually do 3.5 hours and put him down at 6:30, then try to start the catnap around 3-3:30 or as close as possible. I'm just completely making all this up, obviously! :p But when Munchkin has two short/early naps I let him sleep a few minutes extra in the car and usually we end up with about the right bedtime.

Come to think of it, I don't know whether adding a catnap is really better than letting the second nap go on for too long! My intuition is that it is, but I'm not sure. Anyone else have thoughts? :shrug:

Gaia, I'm sure people bedshare past when their babies start crawling, right? You know a lot more about this than I do. What do people do if they don't have a cosleeper? Funny how you have to get just the right timing for unlatching! I'm glad naps and earlier bedtime went so well today :thumbup: hope it translates into a good night!


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## stephie_corin

Gaia that's awesome!! So happy for you! Sounds like a perfect day! Is it possible for you to put your mattress on the floor? We've done that and I feel so much more comfortable knowing any fall won't be too bad.

SE, I agree, I should just go for a cat nap instead of unnaturally prolonging his naps. 1.5 seems to be a sweet spot for him. Longer than this and he falls into a really deep, almost unwakeable sleep! The only problem is I don't know how I would get him down. He nurses to sleep and I've tried offering him breastfeeds in the afternoon and he refuses... But it's worth a shot next time I need him to go longer than 3.5 hours for a reasonable bed time! Thanks for the advice, as always!


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## gaiagirl

Stephie I'm kinda in denial about him just not going back to his easy crib transfer days, lol. I will put the mattress on the floor (SE that's what ppl do) but I don't want to!

Crib for naps and evenings was awesome...sighhhhhhh.

So interesting evening. He crashed but kept nursing on and off for an hour so I stayed. Then I left and he woke up 15 min later...uh ohhhh I was thinking.

But I nursed again and he got nice and sleepy then rolled over, fidgeted a bit, rolled onto his tummy and went to sleep! It's been almost 2 hours now and he's still out :)


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## AmyS

Yesterday was a perfect day for Chloe. She was super happy at daycare, she had 2 naps - an hour in the morning, and 2 hours in the afternoon. Her last wake time before bedtime was 3.5 hours. And then, she woke up 5 minutes after I put her down, became hysterical, took forever to settle, and then was basically up all night. I just don't get it!! 

I'm so tired today. I'm going to do a few things at work and then go home and sleep for a few hours. I am so sick!!! Colds hang around forever when you can't get enough rest. 

Hope everyone else is doing well or doing better at least! I will have to go back and read what's going on after my looooong nap.


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## stephie_corin

Gaia, can you side car the cot so he still has his own space? Here's to a great night for you!

Amy, I'm so sorry. You're having such a hard time at the moment. I think a nap is a great idea. I hope your cold gets better soon. Are you still using the rock and play or gone back to the cot? Did you say you were on a mattress on her floor at the moment? I wonder if you could lie with her in the mattress and transfer her once she is in a deeper sleep? She might want more mummy time? Could it be teething? I know sometimes these things just can't be explained. How long does she usually nap at daycare? I had one of those 'perfect' days yesterday but Culver slept soooo badly last night. Today I've actually tried to limit his day sleep to 2 hours total (in the hope he will do 12 at night!). Maybe you could play around with her day sleep on the weekend and if you get a combination that works, you could ask daycare to follow the same pattern?

As for us, I got C up after his first waking for his first nap (so around 45 minutes) and he slept about 1.15 in the afternoon. I'm hopeful this will help his night sleep tonight but who knows?! I've also put him in a long sleeved sleep suit because I was worried he wanted to be held because he felt cold. I dress him for our room temperature according to the guidelines but his arms usually feel a bit chilly. We shall see.

I hope everyone has a good night xxx


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## seaweed eater

Gaia, I hope the rest of the night went well :hugs:

Amy, so sorry you had a rough night :hugs: so discouraging when the day went well and your expectations are high (as they should be)! I hope you're enjoying your nap right now and that you feel better soon. Hopefully it's just a one off and tonight is better.

Stephie, I'm sorry you had a bad night too :hugs: I hope limiting his WT ends up helping! I probably overdress Munchkin relative to the guidelines, but his arms always feel cold in the morning if he's not in long sleeves, so I use short sleeves only when it's unusually warm. There's also a relatively large difference between lows and highs here in the summer. I imagine it's the same where you live.


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## gaiagirl

Im sorry Amy and Stephie! Rough nights suck :cry: There is no way around it.

Stephie I hope your plan works! 

Amy, I hope the nap helped...

I would like to leave his crib in his room and keep attempting to get him in there, but I may consider flooring the mattress (we have a King so space isn't a huge issue).

Nervous about naps today but determined to keep on track!

PS He ended up doing 9pm-1am after that last resettling :) Night was average after that!


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## stephie_corin

Plan = fail.

He was up several times before I went to bed at 10. At 1015 PM we had nappy leak. He's been up every 25 minutes since then and then wide awake at 1 AM. It's now past 2 AM and I've been rocking him and soothing him nonstop. I just gave a dose of paracetamol and now trying to nurse him down for the 100th time. I'm tired, angry at him and angry at myself for not being more patient. This is one of the tougher nights I've had in a while. I hope everyone else is having a better night than us!


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## gaiagirl

Stephie!!!!! Hugs xxxxxxxxx

Nappy leak that early hey!? I know a diaper change wakes F up totally, it's awful. Maybe try disposable with cloth and cover over top!? Do you use cloth at all?

Up every 25 min DEFINITELY sounds like discomfort or pain, not even a full sleep cycle.

I really hope C settles and you get some solid rest even 1-2 hours tonight.

<3


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## seaweed eater

Oh no, ouch. That is so rough, Stephie. :hugs: :hugs: :hugs: Hope it gets much, much better!


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## AmyS

Stephie - Sorry for the rough night! Sounds awful! It's hard not to be mad when you think you've done everything right. Hang in there with me!


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## Noelle610

:hugs: for tough nights. At these moments it always helped me most to stop over analyzing and just chalk it up to a ad night. Grown ups have them too!


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## stephie_corin

Thanks everyone. Gaia, I haven't tried cloth - I don't have any of the new structured cloth nappies just the old fashioned squares. I wonder if I could wrap one over the top of his nappy. If he leaks its usually before midnight. He takes a huge feed at the end of the day. 

He's all smiles this morning. I know we've all felt like this but I definitely win worst parent award last night. My poor baby.

I think you're right Noelle. I won't overanalyse x


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## seaweed eater

:hugs: You do not win worst parent award!!! No no no. You may have felt frustrated and angry, but you got through it and so did he! And as you said he's all smiles this morning. He knows how much you love and care about him!

Where do you usually get the leaks? Is it in the same place? Do you also have diaper covers or just the cloth squares? If the leaks are in the front or back, you could trifold the diaper and put it inside the cover (if you have one). If the leaks are on the side then you could fold it over and fasten it (it's easy to find websites that will show you how), but the square would have to be pretty big to fit over the disposable and fasten around his legs.

You could also buy a wool cover and put that over the sposie. They supposedly absorb AND keep dry. We have one and I haven't yet dared to use it, but it seems comfy and I bet it would work really well.

:hugs:


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## gaiagirl

I have a wool cover, as long as its lanolized it works great!!!!!


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## stephie_corin

Thanks SE and Gaia. I'm going hunting for a wool cover or maybe even some proper cloth nappies this weekend. Is cloth better than disposables for leaks at night? It's always the same spot that leaks - the side where the nappy fastens together. Last night we did nappy, pjs and sleeping bag change which probably contributed to his inability to get back to sleep.

I actually feel really ashamed when I think back about last night. I usually manage to fight through it not feeling too resentful but I spoke sharply to him and he's just a little baby. Argh! Don't worry, I'm just venting. I know we've all been there... X


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## gaiagirl

Hugs xxxx I hate feeling that way too, it's awful.

Cloth is not really better, I use a disposable and cloth together! Lol. Maybe one day when he only eats once or twice overnight I will try cloth only :)

You can find lots of good cloth advice on the Natural Parenting page (or ask me, I've learned a lot this year about it!).


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## NotNic

Stephie - that sounds like a teething night. Big hugs to you. As for leaks there I'd suggest going up a size or trying out an active fit nappy. They have bigger sides and are more flexible. We use active fit for daytime and baby dry at night because his leaks at the front


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## mellyboo

We got to our vacation destination yesterday 9 hour drive ... She took her naps at her normal times on her own accord didn't sleep no less no more she got super cranky at times in the car prob bored we stopped loads for her ...let her crawl around the room as soon as we got here with toys then went for a walk for some fresh air! ...... Putting her to bed was a nightmare she started crying a bit I let her I think it was because she was like I no you were in here she kept trying to stand in the pack and plAy to see us after 1. 5 hours she finally fell asleep the time difference here is diff by an hour but we are still going with are time back home I went to bed with her . ..she slept all night only woke up once but oh woke us from talking in his sleep so loud scared the crap out of me!


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## AmyS

Stephie - I've had those moments too, when I've gotten too frustrated and spoken a little too harshly! It's hard not to feel guilty about it. I have no diaper advice for you, because I know little boys can pee through anything, haha! 
_____

Chloe has decided to not fall asleep on the bottle anymore at night now! That's a good thing, but I'm not ready to sleep train yet until I get over this cold. I put her in her crib last night (awake) just to see what she would do, and she scooted around so she was vertical in her crib to see me. I straightened her out, and she scooted around again. So, what do you do when you're sleep training? Leave them like that? She was kicking her feet against one side, and about ready to hit her head on the other side. I did take her out when she got too angry and rocked her to sleep.

She actually slept most of the night. I woke up at 2:30 and couldn't get back to sleep! She woke up at 4am, I fed her, and when I was putting her back down, she woke up again and was grinning at me and kicking her feet. I put her in bed with me then, not thinking she'd go back to sleep, but she whispered to herself for about a minute, then snuggled up and passed out! I couldn't believe it.


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## stephie_corin

Melly enjoy your holiday! It sounds like she is doing really well :)

Amy, what a great night! I'm happy for you! It definitely sounds like positive progress :) what kind of sleep training have you decided on? I'm not sure of the answer to your positioning in the crip question but I'm sure one of the others will help.

Thanks everyone for the diaper advice! We will get a range of diapers to try this weekend and I'll report back!


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## AmyS

Stephie - Gradual withdrawal will be the method. I'm still working out the details. As I said, I'm not sure what to do when she scoots herself around to put her head up against me. I will probably start tonight since we both had a good night of sleep and she has stopped falling asleep on the bottle!


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## stephie_corin

Oh good!! I'll be watching closely. I wasn't sure if you changed your mind. Good luck tonight!! SE said her first night was pretty tough from memory but things got better quickly. Hopefully she logs on and can give you some advice xxx


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## seaweed eater

Hugs Stephie, we've all had those moments! Don't be hard on yourself :hugs:

Melly, sounds like Jordyn is doing great on your trip! Glad to hear it :thumbup:

Amy, I would just leave her when she turns herself around. She can roll both ways, right? If she's touching you with her head, just move away a little so that you're nearby but there's no contact. And don't make eye contact. I don't even intervene when Munchkin gets mad and bumps his head by "jumping" on one side of the crib (if that makes sense) -- I figure it's under his control, so he can stop if he wants to, and I don't want to reinforce it by giving him attention. As long as Chloe's not physically stuck I don't think there's any reason to intervene.

Your night sounds like it went really well! :thumbup: I imagine she will take well to the sleep training. Our first night was miles better than I was expecting, but it might have been a little scary if I hadn't had the horrible prior experience with CC to compare it to -- he did cry for about half an hour and was quite worked up. But it also would have been shorter if he'd been able to roll tummy to back on his own and I hadn't had to flip him over. (We did have a tough extinction burst nights 4-6 that was a lot worse than nights 1-3, but hopefully you won't have that experience -- most people don't!)


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## AmyS

SE - That's exactly what she was doing, jumping on one side of the crib! She can roll both ways and scoot everywhere, so I'm not worried she'll get stuck any one way. *Did you have any hysterical crying??* I'm afraid she'll start doing that, and then I'm not sure what I should do to comfort her. When she gets like that, it takes me forever to get her settled, even when I'm holding her. *Does he have a lovey?* I'm not sure if I should introduce one or not. Hubby isn't comfortable with her sleeping with anything yet. 

I did try this one time a couple months ago for one nap. She didn't cry too much, but it took an hour for her to fall asleep. I have no idea why I stopped, or why I started with a nap.


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## freddie

Aw Stephie sounds like you had a horrible night! I hate that feeling of frustration/ resentment/ anger and have definitely been there and felt guilty about feeling that way afterwards! It's just so difficult when you try so hard and get nowhere and in a normal situation you could vent/ voice your feelings towards someone but when it's a little baby you know you have to keep it all inside and act all calm and peaceful but sometimes I feel ready to explode!

On a positive note, we had a pretty good night last night :) DH and I went out for a meal for my birthday and I left LO at my parent's house just up the road. I've only done this on two other occasions and the last time was when we were going through a "good" sleeping phase - by that I mean at least predictable so we knew we had a couple of hours! This time however, we had no idea if he'd be asleep for a few hours or up every 30 minutes!

We put him down at their house at 7pm. He woke at 8.30 and my mum just patted him on the bum and he fell right back to sleep in seconds. Then he didn't wake up again until 10.50pm (at which point we were back and I fed him). He was awake for the cab ride home but then once I put him in his cot he didn't wake again until 3.45am!!! Amazing!!! Then he got up for the day at 6.50am, which is a lay in at the moment lol! 

Hoping for another good night tonight.... I put him down at 6pm (only had two 30 minute naps today) and he hasn't woken yet... He's in his pram ready to be walked down to Nando's lol for another birthday meal :) Hoping he'll stay asleep the whole time we're out!!


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## seaweed eater

Rachel that's a fantastic night!! :thumbup: What a great birthday present for you. Happy birthday! :cake: Hope he behaves himself tonight too!

Amy, we have had a little bit of hysterical crying :( mostly night 4 though. Night 1 it wasn't more than a few minutes of that IIRC. I just leave him, because if I pick him up and calm him and then put him down, he gets much much more upset...sounds like Chloe may be similar. The Sleep Lady's version allows you to do that if it helps, but I only did it once because it was clearly very counterproductive. So I just told him that I was there with him and loved him and it was time to sleep. I think I sang to him a little too.

He is a baby who gets worked up though. I don't think you had joined the thread before any of these instances, but he's cried for an hour and a half a few times in his life, and vomited from crying twice. I don't know whether that makes you feel better or worse :p but really I was afraid of much worse than what happened with gradual withdrawal. Chances are you won't experience anything like that, especially given what has happened already when you've tried.

In the past week or so there have been a couple times when it's been clear that he's not even trying to SS, and I've picked him up to take a break or nurse some more. But that's because things feel better established now and I know he can do it if he's ready to, and I know what it looks like when he is trying. For the first week at least, I think it's important to be really consistent to give LO the best chance to learn.

He does have a lovey. I introduced it around 4 months but he's seemed more attached to it for the past few weeks, so I think it did help him learn to SS. It did take me a little while to get comfortable with the idea of him having it in his bed. Initially I was planning to give it to him as he was falling asleep and then remove it once he was asleep, but I woke him up a couple times that way and then gave up. Do you have a movement sensor? If so, maybe that would reassure your hubby?


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## AmyS

SE - Thanks for the details! I am worried about the crying - she has never vomited from crying, but I haven't really let her go that long. If she is doing her hysterical crying, and I put her down, she REALLY gets worked up. That worries me about tonight. I have a feeling I will being doing a VERY gradual method... 

We don't have a movement sensor - I think I will just try without the lovey for tonight, and see how it goes. If we don't have much luck, then hubby might just have to get over it! 

That's so cool that you know now how he SS himself! I can't wait to see how Chloe figures it out. I know she will. I have to believe that she will. 

So, tonight, I will try to put her down drowsy. She hasn't been falling asleep on the bottle, but if she does, I will gently wake her before I put her down. And if she's wide awake after eating (like last night), then I will rock her a few minutes to calm her down before putting her in her crib. I will soothe her in her crib for all night wakings, unless it's been 6 hours since her last bottle, then I'll feed her. I'm not trying to night wean yet. She usually only eats once a night anyway. And I will be prepared for little to no sleep tonight! Thank goodness tomorrow is Friday!


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## seaweed eater

Sounds good! :thumbup: I hope it goes well. Please keep us posted!!! Regarding crying, you just can't know until you try. I would be prepared for it to be stressful, because even a very normal amount of crying is stressful. But chances are she will be just fine. You will be right there with her to help her through it :hugs:


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## seaweed eater

I should mention that I decided last night to try a 6-hour cutoff for nursing. He's been waking after 4 hours a few nights in a row, and I know he can get through that transition without a feed and don't want to encourage the habit of feeding then. So last night was the second time he resettled without nursing. He certainly wasn't thrilled about it. He fussed on and off for about 25 minutes before falling asleep, but mostly not that intense. So that's the baseline -- hoping it gets better, or that he stops waking then and it's no longer relevant.


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## mellyboo

Thanks seaweed and stephie I just got her down to bed she went down right away hoping for a good nights rest we did so much today I'm tired!


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## stephie_corin

Amy! Good luck, I'm dying to know how it goes. I hope the first night wasn't too tough.

SE, that sounds like a good approach to night nursing. You're really making such good progress!

Rachel, I'm so glad you had a good night!!

At the prompting of a friend I started my sleep log aka NCSS. It's slightly depressing. I'm not sure I want to share it as it feel like such a massive parenting fail. I'm not sure how we got into this mess. Last week things were looking really good but it's all gone horrible again. I do hope it's just teething but there are no signs of any teeth!!

Edit - happy birthday Rachel!!!

X


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## seaweed eater

:hugs: You are going to get through this, Stephie. In the not too distant future you won't even remember what it was like to sleep so little. And you will be the same caring, conscientious parent you are right now.


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## stephie_corin

Thanks SE, I'm questioning everything right now. His sleep is so bad it has to be detrimental to his health. I just feel paralysed. I tried lying on the bed with him around 4am and just rubbing his tummy and he got hysterical until I picked him up. Is this even a legitimate technique? Should I start at bed time or treat all wakings the same? I honestly don't know what to do.


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## seaweed eater

IMO anything is a legitimate technique as long as you give them a chance to get used to it. If you can do it for all NWs then that would probably be better, though more tiring for you. But maybe rocking him until he's drowsy and then having him fall asleep with your new technique would be a good middle ground if you are worried about going cold turkey? Maybe that's what you had in mind already.

:hugs: :hugs: It sounds like he is a healthy and happy guy during the day. It may not be optimal but it can't be affecting his health that much. You are doing the best you can, and this won't last forever.


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## stephie_corin

Edit - I've actually decided to give it a few more weeks before I do any training! I'm concerned he is teething or its some other issue and I don't want him to cry in pain. Thanks SE for the advice xxx


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## rmsh1

I spoke with a nurse yesterday about Emma's sleep habits and she told me exactly what I did not want to hear - I need to try to let Emma cry a little rather than feed her if she wakes every hour :( I do not know if I am strong enough to do this. She only woke three times last night, after getting her three month labs yesterday and having a very grumpy afternoon.

I am so scared to just let her cry :( She tends to get more worked up once she sees me, so I guess I will see how upset she gets before seeing me, and take it from there. I just don't get it, she can obviously self soothe since she is awake when I put her to bed most nights. Last night she woke at 5.20am for the last time, and I changed her nappy. She was wide awake, I put her in her cot, she grizzled for 5 minutes (not crying), then chatted to herself for half an hour before falling asleep again.

I am feeling so useless, she sleeps well during the day, and today I did not let any of her naps go longer than two hours. So she slept a total of nearly 6 hours today. That sounds like a lot, but maybe because she had her jabs yesterday she is still a bit funny. 

I really don't think I can be strong enough to let her cry for any length of time


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## freddie

Rmsh1 &#8211; At 3 months I would let her feed whenever she wants to&#8230; My LO was feeding every 1-2 hours at that age (day and night!) He has gradually spaced this out on his own and now goes 4 hours between feeds. I honestly don&#8217;t think that a lot of the nurses/ health visitors are very knowledgeable when it comes to breasfted babies and how they work&#8230; Does she settle easily by being fed? If you feel uncomfortable or hesitant with the idea of letting her cry then don't do it :hugs: I have to admit that I would not feel comfortable with it at any age but I actually think that from the point of view of people who do it, 3 months is too young?

Stephie &#8211; Don&#8217;t feel down about your sleep log, just think by doing one you have taken a step towards fixing things&#8230; His bad sleep is not a fail on your part&#8230; I honestly believe this (if it&#8217;s a fail on your part then my LO&#8217;s bad sleep is a fail on my part!) It seems to me that for some unknown reason some babies just take a lot longer to learn how to sleep for long stretches or without parental help. Unfortunately knowing this doesn&#8217;t really help when you're sleep deprived and exhausted :( I have a feeling your little boy is very similar with sleep to mine &#8211; the whole rocking association etc&#8230; At the moment do you basically rock him back to sleep every time he wakes? How asleep does he have to be for you to put him down?

Thanks for the birthday wishes :)


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## stephie_corin

Thanks so much for the kind words Rachel. I do agree with you - I just feel sooo bad he's getting so little sleep! I have to rock him every time now and wait until he is in a deep deep sleep otherwise he wakes immediately or after a few minutes. He cries and kicks his legs until I pick him up. I actually had some luck last week phasing out the rocking and replacing it with picking him up and swaying or nursing but something has upset him this week and its back to old habits! I do hope your little man keeps sleeping well for you! X


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## seaweed eater

Rmsh, she is sooo young. I don't think you should feel under any pressure to let her cry if you don't want to. Especially when she's about to go through so many changes that are likely to disrupt her sleep. IMO it would make more sense to reevaluate in 2-3 months, if you can hang in there for that long. Of course, if you need something to change for the sake of your own health, then that's different, but it sounds like you would be letting her cry just because the nurse told you to, and I don't think you should do that!

Stephie, I hope you guys had a good day and that tonight is better :hugs:

We had a much much better night here! Bed at 7:40, one feed at 4:45 and back to sleep around 5:15, woke up and babbled a bit at 6 and went back to sleep, up again at 7. The darn movement sensor went off at 3 and even that didn't wake him. :happydance: It's so funny because naps yesterday were just horrible...10 mins in the car, 25 mins ( :( ), 35 mins, another 10 in the car. Trying not to read too much into that!


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## AmyS

Stephie - I think you should share it! I wish I had the patience to do a sleep log. I think I'll start one tonight! I agree with SE, soon we won't remember any of this. Or, if we do, it'll be to have our revenge on them as teenagers when they want to sleep all the time! 

rmsh1 - I think babies can be "off" for a few days after they get their shots. I understand about it being tough to hear her cry. It's the hardest thing. I agree that at her young age, I would probably be feeding her on demand still. 

Rachel - Not sure if I'm a day late with the time changes and everything, but Happy Birthday! 

SE - Great night! I love hearing them babble in the middle of the night. Chloe always whispers when she does, probably because I never usually speak during the night. 
_____________

Of course, my night did not go as planned. I fed her, and she fell asleep for the first time in a few nights! Ugh!! So, I put her down right away, instead of rocking her like I usually do, and she rolled to her side and fell back to sleep. 
Then, I waited for the first wake up. Didn't have to wait long - maybe 30 minutes. I tried soothing her in the crib, and she wasn't having it. She started getting hysterical, so I ended up picking her up. Took forever to get her settled, and then she was unsettled the rest of the night. I tried the crib at first, but ended up putting her back in the rock 'n play about 10pm, because it was getting so frustrating. 

I don't know what I'm doing! I don't know if I can even do this! 

The past couple of months, I've done a lot of sleep reading, and one of the sites I've come across is AskMoxie. She says there are 2 types of babies: babies who cry to release tension (CIO/CC work well for them), and tension increasers (CIO/CC rarely works). If I apply this to Chloe, she seems to be a tension increaser. If I make any change at all in her routine, she freaks out on me, and then her entire night sucks! I'm glad I'm learning this, but now I feel like I don't have any options but to WIO.

I feel back at square one. We were doing so good getting her in her crib, then she started sleeping so poorly again and was sick, we went back to the rock 'n play. Now, she won't go more than 30 minutes at a time in the crib. 

Do I start with the number one problem, which is getting her to sleep in her crib? Persistence is the only thing I can do. I can keep trying to put her down drowsy, but I'm scared of her reaction. I know at this age, they are aware of object permanence, so if I keep putting her down asleep, she will most likely keep waking up and getting angry. 

Sorry, this is very long! I'm rambling! This has been on my mind all night! I have no idea how I should continue on with her. I feel like I've done everything wrong from the start, and now she is suffering because of it!


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## Boo44

HELP ladies!!! 

Naps have gone to crap!

Jack has just learnt to stand in his cot. So every single nap time I pop him down and say goodbye then I hear shuffling and crying and he's stood up. So I have to lie him back down. Repeat over and over. Occasionally he will sleep. But the past 3 days my OH has driven him in the car to get him to sleep! Bad!!!!
This is a baby I was able to lay down awake and leave for a nap from a very young age. 
He also does the same on a night but seems to only need laying down once before he goes off

I really don't know what to do about it! He will sleep up to 2hrs a morning and 1 in afternoon usually but since this phase he is having rubbish short car naps and I'm finding it really stressful!

Would love some advice xxx


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## gaiagirl

Rmsh1 - What terrible HV advice! She is WAYYYYYYY too young to CIO and that's sooooooo normal for that age! Ugh, I'm sorry I'm not sugar coating my feelings here but it really upsets me when nurses, docs etc even GIVE sleep advice since they are not qualified and do not have training on infant sleep psychology. I know you're just trying to figure it out and listen to advice but seriously, if it feels wrong it's wrong! And that is seriously wrong. Ok sorry for the rant, it is purely aimed at that asinine advice NOT you <3.

Feed your baby whenever they wake, nurse lying down in bed if you are comfortable with it. Follow your instincts!

Amy I'm sorry you're feeling stressed, it is stressful to try and make those choices! I'm a committed WIOer so my mind is set, and honestly realizing and deciding that training wasn't for me alleviated 90% of my sleep stress, regardless of how crappy some nights are. If you need support or advice on WIO or bedsharing or anything, please feel free to PM me :)

Ladies I've made an interesting change in our lives...after struggling with crib transfers for nap and evening for way too long now! We set up Fs room with a Montessori floor bed...basically his crib mattress on the floor. I know it sounds wacky but google it, it's pretty neat! 

He was in his room until 11:30 last night! First time in a loooooong time. The evening still had its bumps but that's a separate issue!


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## gaiagirl

Boo! That's frustrating! I have no experience but I imagine its a phase after discovering he can? Maybe he will get over it? I hope others have advice for you!


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## seaweed eater

Gaia, interesting! What were your reasons behind doing that rather than putting your own mattress on the floor? Sounds like his first night with the new setup was a success, at least relatively speaking? :thumbup:

Boo, I'm sorry I don't have experience with that. Sounds frustrating indeed :( How long has it been going on? It seems like the general pattern with those gross motor things is that they just get over it sooner or later. Does he know how to get back down on his own, or is he actually stuck when he stands up?

Amy, I'm sorry you had a rough night. :hugs: I'm familiar with that idea from AskMoxie. The theory makes a lot of sense, but personally I haven't found it to be very useful or consistent with my experiences. If you had to put Munchkin in one of those categories, he would clearly be a tension increaser. But that doesn't mean that he can't calm himself down on his own. For example, a pattern I've seen several times since we started gradual withdrawal is that he tries to go to sleep, cries in frustration, quiets down and tries to sleep, cries, etc until he falls asleep. Sounds like tension releasing, but I just don't think that's true -- I think he's crying because he's truly frustrated. The crying isn't helping him calm down, it's just that he is able to calm himself down in some other way.

I think if you are going to try sleep training involving crying then you have to accept that you are committed (to your chosen method, of course, which you selected because you think it's a good fit for your baby) no matter what temperament your baby has. It's really hard to get to that place, I know, especially when you have reason to suspect you're not going to have an easy time. But it just makes things hard on both of you otherwise. You're not locked in forever, of course -- after several days you can (and should!) re-evaluate if it's still not working.

Just my opinion. I know Pantley might disagree, and she has a bestselling baby sleep book and I don't. But I've experienced firsthand and heard and read about many other cases where a baby really does cry in a very intense way on the first night or two (or five!) and yet the sleep training works.

Ok, none of this rambling really answered your question! :winkwink: I think there are two approaches you can take if you want to work on not putting her down asleep. You can keep putting her down drowsy (or let her fall asleep and then wake her up as you put her down), but if she cries, pick her up right away and try again. Or you can be in a sleep training mindset and decide that you're going to be there for her while she works it out on her own, even if she's crying. Either one of those is perfectly fine! But I think wavering between them is just stressful for you and doesn't really help the situation any.


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## gaiagirl

SE, tbh we didn't want our mattress on the floor AND to make sure our whole room and bathroom were baby proofed. Much easier to contain him in his room. Plus I like the idea of him having unrestricted movement to explore and play in his room after he wakes up. 

Also, this way he is actually in his room for naps and evenings which we prefer :)

It's very low to the ground and we have carpet and I put a folded blanket along the edges, but the initial falls until he learns perimeter are a bit freaky! He likes to go head first and he is FEARLESS. Lol.


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## Noelle610

Hey Boo! That's a phase. Usually short-lived. It took us about a week and it was over. Just hang in there! Does he know how to get back down?


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## AmyS

SE - I see your point on the AskMoxie thing. I guess I need to figure out how to keep Chloe from getting to the point of hysterical crying, because I haven't had an easy time calming her down from that. I know I could just sit by and wait for her to calm on her own, but I'm really afraid of how long that might take, or if she might end up vomiting or passing out from exhaustion. When she cries like that, it sounds like she is in distress - hubby has come running in before asking what is wrong with her. 

Wavering is definitely stressful! I think I definitely need to start small. Work on getting her back in her crib full time for now. I will keep on trying to put her down drowsy at the start of the night too, if she'll have it.

Gaia - I am definitely thinking about embracing WIO. I know I go back and forth between what I think I need to do. The more I learn about Chloe, the more I know what won't work for her, and sometimes I think the best thing would be to just wait and see what happens. 

I googled the Montessori floor bed - that looks cool! Do you have it in the middle of the room so that he can't get wedged between the mattress and the wall? I saw some really elaborate pics when I googled it!


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## gaiagirl

I've debated the wall thing...but it's up so snug, and on carpet so I can't see how he could move it away from wall to get wedged. Plus we have angelcare under it. Plus it's only for naps and evenings when we are up. I'm still a bit unsure about wall but all other ones I've seen and heard of are against the wall! Hmmmm


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## Boo44

Noelle610 said:


> Hey Boo! That's a phase. Usually short-lived. It took us about a week and it was over. Just hang in there! Does he know how to get back down?

Thanks I hope so! I can cope with a week. Think I had to lay him down 5 times at bed time. Have googled it and they all say CIO but I'm not sure I could in the knowledge the poor thing is standing there!!

I think he can probably lay himself down. He can certainly sit down from standing...


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## beth_terri

Boo, If Rory isn't totally sleepy he stands back up but I just leave him and he lays himself down to sleep eventually. That being said hes not upset or anything hes just standing chattering. x


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## beth_terri

Ps I cant believe your already 12 weeks along. Its flying by! x


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## rmsh1

Thanks everyone :hugs:

Partly I want Emma to sleep longer for my own sanity, and partly it is because everything I read says she "should" be sleeping longer :( 

I think I need to wait until she has a set bed time, and goes to bed happily at that time, then re evaluate how her sleeping is. Last night she went to bed at 7.30pm, and was ready to get up at 7.30am, after 4 night wake ups (10pm, 1.30am, 3.30am and 6am). She fed well at each wake up.

She does settle very well after a feed, she only feeds about 5 minutes, but that is normal for her, she is very efficient and is certainly not underweight. So she has a good feed, and instantly goes to sleep again. I can put her back awake too, she grizzles for maybe a minute, then shuffles around til she is asleep.

She keeps me awake far more though. She starts squirming about half an hour before she actually wakes. Then she squirms around again for maybe another half hour, so I am kept awake a lot. (will be nice when she can have her own room, when we finally move out of this one bed place - I cannot WAIT for that)

Last night she went to sleep on the boob, but for two of her wake ups she was wide awake when I put her back, and she only grizzled a little bit


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## gaiagirl

Honestly rmsh, that sounds like an AWESOME night and it sounds like she is right on track and doing great! I would be THRILLED with that schedule ;)

My advice...don't read baby sleep stuff. It's crap ;)


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## seaweed eater

Rmsh, I agree with Gaia...there's no reason she "should" be sleeping longer. It sounds like she is sleeping plenty for her health and happiness. When there's a problem, you'll know without needing any experts to tell you! Of course, your sanity is a different matter...definitely worth taking seriously if you feel it is being threatened. :hugs:


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## stephie_corin

Amy, I know that feeling of uncertainty about what to do. Whenever we have a really rough patch I'm determined to start some kind of gentle sleep training but in my heart I know even the gentlest sleep training is not a good fit for either of us ... Cully is not the kind of baby who would calm easily. He gets more and more worked up the longer I leave him. Whether this is his personality or a product of my parenting, I'm not sure. I'm also just not capable of letting him cry. This may be a personal weakness in my part, who knows? But don't feel foolish for changing your mind or trying different things. We're all on a journey... Especially as first time mummies we can't be expected to know everything. You're learning as you go.

Gaia, what great news! It sounds like F is sleeping so well in his new bed! I hope that first stretch just gets longer and longer for you!

RMSH, the others have given you great advice. It sounds like Emma is doing really well! You're a good mum. Just keep doing what you're doing and hopefully her night sleep gets better and better.

SE, how is your night nursing plan going?

As for us, we had a bad night last night again and I spent a lot of time holding him towards the end of the night. He just doesn't want to be put down. I saw lots of ear pulling so Ido think its a tooth. He's very swollen on his front teeth. I can't believe how rough teething is for some babies! He's also eating a bit more and his digestive system has slowed right down so I also suspect tummy troubles. If he isn't sleeping better in a few days I plan to take him to our doctor just to rule out an ear infection xxx


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## polaris

Hi everyone!
I'm back from my trip to visit my parents - we got back last night. I've missed so much so I know I'm not going to be able to comment on everyone's posts! We had a lovely trip and Clara slept reasonably well, a couple of bad nights and a couple of pretty good nights. 

Gaia, we actually have a similar set-up in that Clara sleeps on a futon in the spare room for naps and night-times, she doesn't go in the cot at all now. The only difference is that instead of bringing her into bed with me, I sleep in there with her from about 10.30ish when I go to bed. I am finding it so much easier since I gave up trying to get her to sleep in the cot. I honestly can't see her going back into the cot now. It's so strange because DS absolutely loved his cot and was still in the cot until 2.5 years and I only moved him out of it because I was pregnant on Clara.

Stephie :hugs: I have definitely been guilty of losing my temper with Clara in the middle of the night. It's not a nice feeling but it happens to all of us. It definitely doesn't make you a bad mum, we are all only human after all. Sorry to hear that the sleep log was a bit depressing. I actually used to be a bit obsessive about keeping track of Clara's sleep and recording numbers of night wakings etc. One thing that has really helped me is actually to stop doing that! Now I have hidden the clock display so I don't know what time it is when she wakes and I've stopped keeping track of how many times she wakes. Obviously this has no impact on how she sleeps but it has really helped me to feel better about her sleep because in the morning I can rarely remember clearly how many times she woke.

rmsh - I agree that it sounds like your LO is doing very well! Try not to worry too much and just relax and enjoy her, she's so little and she really will grow up sooo fast!

Amy - I actually think that is very interesting about "tension reducers" and "tension increasers". I guess it's not going to fit perfectly for every baby but I really do think this is a big difference between my two. DS was definitely a tension reducer, he did need to have a little cry to wind down before sleep and he would actually cry no matter what you were doing to try to soothe him. Even once he was self-settling he used to cry for about five minutes before all of his naps for months but that was just his way of unwinding and going to sleep. Clara is completely different. She just gets worked up and there's no way she's going to just go to sleep after crying for five minutes. If she starts properly crying, she's going to cry for hours (unless I pick her up and nurse her again). Big hugs to you, I totally empathize with your going backwards and forwards on what the best way forward is, it's so stressful. I actually found that place of indecisiveness and wavering was the worst time for me. Since I embraced co-sleeping and waiting it out (for the moment anyway) I have been so much less stressed and actually Clara is sleeping better too (although she still has a lot of wakings they are just not getting in on me the same way and I just feel relaxed about things and not constantly questioning myself about what action I "should" be taking). I am not doing any sleep training at the moment, I am just allowing her to feed to sleep if she wants to (although sometimes she will self-settle by choice) and to comfort feed at all night wakings. I'm honestly finding it so much less stressful!


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## stephie_corin

Polaris! We've missed you! I'm glad Clara slept reasonably well. You're in such a good place with her sleep right now. You seem very at peace and happy and I'm so glad for you!

I think I might do the same for a while and not look at number of wakeups or obsessively check the time. If you are waiting it out, whether temporarily or not, you really just need to go with it I think. 

So glad to have you back! X

Ps Culver is also a tension increaser!


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## seaweed eater

Welcome back Polaris! I'm glad you had a good time and that Clara slept reasonably well during your trip. You really do sound far less stressed about her sleep! :thumbup:

Stephie, I think if the no cry approach to changing C's sleep is causing stress and not helping, then just going all the way toward WIO sounds great! And there's definitely no reason to keep a log or even look at the time when he wakes up if you're not working on "improving" things. :thumbup: I'm really sorry you had another rough night. I hope you are able to get some rest during the day :hugs:

Things have been really good here the past two nights! He hasn't woken earlier than 4 so no need to resettle without nursing. Yesterday morning he woke an additional time but went back to sleep on his own, but this morning he slept until he was ready for the day at 6:30! I think it's all going to change soon, because everyone has been commenting on how his top teeth seem to be coming in, but I'm trying to just enjoy it for now.


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## stephie_corin

Woohoo! Go munchkin! That is awesome! You better not stop coming here and giving us advice :haha: I joke. I hope teething doesn't derail him too much. Cs front gums are so swollen. I have no idea how long before a tooth might pop out but I'm sure it will be soon!

After realising this week that Culver wants to be held and nothing else will do, I took some pillows and propped myself up in bed and actually held him from about 11-6. I know it sounds mad but he actually slept reasonably well. He woke probably hourly I'm guessing and went back to sleep quickly. I'm feeling pretty tired today but surely this phase will pass!?!? I actually dod manage to get some sleep but as I'm sure you can imagine, it wasn't great sleep! It's only been this last week he wants to be held all night. I'm going to keep trying to put him down and if its still going on in a week ... Well I'm not sure what I'll do then!!! Has anyone else experienced this?!?


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## polaris

Stephie, Clara has gone through phases like that when she was a bit younger, just wanting to sleep on top of me, and also phases of wanting to sleep attached to the boob. It is not very restful at all. She's much better at sleeping beside me now and will generally roll away from me once she's finished nursing and go off to sleep by herself. So in my experience it does improve with age. I hope Cully gets over this phase soon so you can get some sleep!

Seaweed, that's such great news that Munchkin is sleeping so well. You never know, teething might not upset things too much. Once DS started sleeping well (similar pattern to Munchkin) he wasn't really too thrown by teeth etc. although obviously we had some disturbed nights he always got back on track quickly.


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## stephie_corin

Thanks Polaris! It's hot and uncomfortable having a big baby lying on you all night!! Lol. I'm glad to hear there is a chance he might grow out of this!

I think someone stole my baby and replaced him with an identical but different baby... These last three days he's asked to nurse not at nap time, in the middle of the living room with cats and all kinds of distractions AND he just fell asleep for a nap with some rocking and didn't want to nurse??!?


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## polaris

stephie_corin said:


> Thanks Polaris! It's hot and uncomfortable having a big baby lying on you all night!! Lol. I'm glad to hear there is a chance he might grow out of this!
> 
> I think someone stole my baby and replaced him with an identical but different baby... These last three days he's asked to nurse not at nap time, in the middle of the living room with cats and all kinds of distractions AND he just fell asleep for a nap with some rocking and didn't want to nurse??!?

Wow, that really doesn't sound like Cully! It just shows you that they DO change!

I remember somebody once saying to me that the good thing about children is that whatever you are worrying about now, you can rest assured that you won't be worrying about it next year because they will have stopped doing that and started doing different new things for you to worry about. I often think of this at challenging times!


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## seaweed eater

Thanks Polaris, I really hope you are right that teething won't mess things up. We'll see!

Stephie, that's crazy!! Do you think it's because he actually got more rest last night? Maybe all you need is to break the cycle of overtiredness and things will sort themselves out? I really hope so! Hang in there :hugs: hope tonight goes well!


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## stephie_corin

Don't worry everyone, he woke after 5 minutes and demanded to be nursed back to sleep, and is currently feeding to sleep. All is right with the universe!

Polaris that's so true. They change so quickly! I'll keep your wise words in mind next time in agonising over something he has/hasn't done!

SE I do hope you're right :) he seems to have realised he can communicate for things this last week. So I think the tugging at mummy's shirt and resulting feed may possibly just be a novelty but hopefully not! He's only done it a few times and never for very long but it's definite progress!


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## seaweed eater

Aww, communicating for things! That's lovely...our babies are growing up! :cloud9:

Hope your night is going well :hugs:

It's been quiet here...how is everyone doing??
Happy birthday to Boo's Jack! :cake:


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## gaiagirl

Doing ok! Last night was a bit of a mess. Bed at 7:30, woke up after one cycle as always and was hard to settle. Tried nursing, tried rocking, finally nursed again on other side and he projectile vomited like I have NEVER seen. Seriously it was terrifying. I'm hoping it was just overeating/some food that didn't sit well/extra drool from teething. BUT he also has learned this weekend to go from crawl to sit and yet doesn't sit well 100% of the time so he's been hitting his head CONSTANTLY. So if course I freaked about concussion...

Needless to say we were both wide awake. Rocked him back to sleep shortly after...

Interestingly, in the past two weeks he has been needier than ever with sleep BUT has also fallen asleep not nursing and even on his 'own' a few times! It's like a pull-push thing. I'm learning a new skill, I'm gaining independence, now I'm gonna pull you even closer because its scary...

I laid beside him in my bed as he flipped and flopped and finally settled and went to sleep! This has happened 4/5 times lately! Amazing!


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## gaiagirl

Note: It only seems to happen at or after 9pm when he's really tired and ready for night time. Never at naps or earlier in the evening.


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## AmyS

Stephie - That is so awesome that he is learning to communicate with you! 

Gaia - Yippee for learning new skills! Very exciting! Projectile vomiting is very scary - Chloe did that twice a day for 2 weeks when she had RSV (touchy gag reflex). 

Polaris - True, things change so fast hopefully next year's challenges won't have me longing for sleepless nights again, haha!

SE - Glad you have nothing to report!!


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## rmsh1

Last night we began some very gentle sleep training, as being woken every 1-2 hours the last few nights has just gotten to be too much for me. Last night Emma was waking every 2 hours on the dot :wacko:

So we picked a time - midnight til 2am, where I will not nurse her. When she woke at 12.30am, OH got up, shhhed her and patted her, then walked away. She continued crying for about 4 minutes, then started playing, which is OK. 10 minutes later she started crying again so OH again patted and shhhhed her. He walked away, she cried for another 4 minutes, then stopped. That was the only interraction he had with her and she was asleep by 1.05am. 

When she woke at 2.30am, I fed her as I was engorged - obviously my supply is used to getting emptied every 2 hours!

I hope we can continue this. I wont let Emma get too upset, or cry for hours on end. I am reading the NCSS book too, so will see what I can pull from that


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## seaweed eater

Gaiagirl, yay for new skills and becoming more independent on his own, but the vomiting sounds scary! I'm sure it was nothing though. Hope he has been better today! :hugs: I bet even if the quasi-SS is happening only when he's really tired, it will still eventually transfer over to bedtime and naps. :thumbup:

Amy, you didn't say, how are things with you? Hope all is well!

Rmsh, sounds like the sleep training is going GREAT! 4 minutes at a time of crying is pretty far from hours on end :) sounds like she is ready! I hope things continue to go well and that it improves her sleep. :thumbup:

AFM, Munchkin's routine seems to need some tweaking, but I don't feel like there's any sense in trying to fine-tune his naps right now given that he'll be taking both of them at daycare soon. One thing I do want to try, however, is a 3.5-4 hour WT before bed. We've been doing 4-4.5 and recently he's seemed plenty tired once we start the routine, so I want to see if a shorter one would work since he could still stand to have an earlier bedtime. I know 3.5 has worked well for Stephie and Polaris -- are you both still doing that?


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## polaris

seaweed eater said:


> Gaiagirl, yay for new skills and becoming more independent on his own, but the vomiting sounds scary! I'm sure it was nothing though. Hope he has been better today! :hugs: I bet even if the quasi-SS is happening only when he's really tired, it will still eventually transfer over to bedtime and naps. :thumbup:
> 
> Amy, you didn't say, how are things with you? Hope all is well!
> 
> Rmsh, sounds like the sleep training is going GREAT! 4 minutes at a time of crying is pretty far from hours on end :) sounds like she is ready! I hope things continue to go well and that it improves her sleep. :thumbup:
> 
> AFM, Munchkin's routine seems to need some tweaking, but I don't feel like there's any sense in trying to fine-tune his naps right now given that he'll be taking both of them at daycare soon. One thing I do want to try, however, is a 3.5-4 hour WT before bed. We've been doing 4-4.5 and recently he's seemed plenty tired once we start the routine, so I want to see if a shorter one would work since he could still stand to have an earlier bedtime. I know 3.5 has worked well for Stephie and Polaris -- are you both still doing that?

Hi Seaweed, yes I'm still doing 3.5 before bed. Sometimes it doesn't work and it ends up being longer but mostly I would say it's working quite well. One thing that I've noticed since shortening her wake-times is that she is actually showing more tired signs, whereas she never really used to show reliable tired signs at all. I don't know why that would be! I still find bedtime is usually the hardest time to get her settled. She is definitely better with a long wind-down in the bedroom when I can manage that. Our routine now is usually
6.30 a.m. Wake up
9.30-10.30/11 Nap
2/2.30-4 Nap
7.30 Bedtime
So she is finally getting plenty of sleep: 3 hours of daytime sleep and 11 hours of night time sleep (mind you, still with lots of usually very brief wakings). I'm really happy with this routine at the moment and it seems to be working well for her. I'm so pleased that I went with shortening her final wake-time in accordance with Noelle's advice, as at one stage I was thinking I needed to lengthen it to 5 hours which would have been way too long!


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## stephie_corin

Gaia, Cully has hit his head on hard tiles a few times while crawling around and it's horrible. I can understand your concern when he vomited! Is F ok today? Great news on the self settling! I really like your push-pull comment too. I wonder if Cully has been so needy because of his new found mobility. 

RMSH, that sounds like a really good approach. It's good your DH is getting involved too!

Amy, how are you my friend?

SE, we are still aiming for 3, 3.5, 3.5 which has been working great but this week he has been so tired its been more like 2.5, 3, 3.5 because night sleep has been so so bad.

Our day routine is usually something like this:

Up at 6-630

Nap around 9 for 1 hour

Nap around 1/1.30. I always try and make him sleep until at least 230 so he isn't going to bed at 5!

Bedtime is between 6-630 unless he takes freakishly long naps.

He always falls asleep nursing at the designated bedtime but it takes around an hour usually for him to fall into a deep enough sleep for me to put him down.

As for us, I'm more convinced than ever that he is teething. He's started drooling a lot which he hasn't done in months and trying to bite me leg or anything else he can get hold of. I gave him pain relief at 3 when he was crying in this really pained way and it helped a little.

I feel so sad for him and I'm just so so unimaginably, mind numbingly tired. I got in the car this morning with him to go on an outing and I ended up driving around the block a few times because I didn't know what to do. I know there is an end in sight, and I know many of us are going through this too... So not ranting, just have to get it out there.


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## stephie_corin

Haha my post says 'bite me leg' ... This is obviously my iPhone autocorrect. I am not becoming a pirate.


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## aliss

Girls what is the awake period at this age?

I was putting P to bed after 2-2.5 hours after waking in the morning and he's been a real... biotch... the past 2 days, does this extend to 3 hours now? He's driving me nuts :(


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## stephie_corin

Aliss, Culver is about the same age and we've been doing 3.5 as max awake time for around a month now. I think 3 is the recommended max awake time for 8 month olds. My boy needs 10 hours awake time so we go a bit longer between naps and bedtime. If your boy is ok on 9 hours total awake time you could aim for 3. We do 3, 3.5, 3.5 awake times x


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## aliss

stephie_corin said:


> Aliss, Culver is about the same age and we've been doing 3.5 as max awake time for around a month now. I think 3 is the recommended max awake time for 8 month olds. My boy needs 10 hours awake time so we go a bit longer between naps and bedtime. If your boy is ok on 9 hours total awake time you could aim for 3. We do 3, 3.5, 3.5 awake times x

Thanks! I wish I had asked earlier. My OH hasn't been around this week and I've lost my temper several times. I guess it is my own fault... :shrug:


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## Noelle610

It's so hard when something has been working and then their needs change! They keep us guessing, don't they? I'm dreading the day Charlie drops to one nap since we're in such a good routine right now.


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## AmyS

rmsh - Great start to the sleep training! 

Stephie - You did sound like a pirate, haha! That's exactly how I read it. Poor Cully, I'd keep the pain relief going for nights, as long as it's safe. You both need your sleep!

Aliss - My daughter is the same age, and I've wondered about that first wake time too. She always gets so tired 2 hours after, but I'm trying to push it out to 3. When I do that, we can easily cut down to 2 naps a day.
________

We've been having middle-of-the-night fun this weekend! Chloe has now decided that when she wakes up, she would like to just stay up. I finally got frustrated and annoyed at 3:30 this morning. I had her in bed with me, and she does not like to co-sleep. So, she kept trying to sit up. I ended up putting her back in her rock 'n play, and let her fuss it out until she fell asleep. It only took about 15 minutes, and she never cried. It still made me feel guilty, even though I was only a foot away from her. 

I did talk to daycare this morning about her naps. They started letting her CIO for naps when she was 5 months old. Now, when they put her in her rock 'n play at daycare, she will just fuss for a few minutes and fall asleep. That sounds like progress to me. I wish she would do that at home, but I guess I've never given her the opportunity. I'm always afraid I'm going to get that hysterical, dramatic cry of hers that leads to a very bad night. 

I've been going back and forth about whether or not to actually do anything about her sleep, or WIO. No matter what I decide, I have to get her into her crib, since she doesn't like to co-sleep (and we weren't comfortable doing that anyway because 2 dogs sleep with us) and she is quickly out-growing her rock 'n play. I've been trying every night to put her in her crib while sleeping, but she wakes up within 20-30 minutes and cries. I think the only way I'm going to be successful at getting her used to sleeping all night in the crib is if I put her in awake/drowsy and let her fall asleep in it.


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## seaweed eater

Hope things are better with 3 hours, Aliss!

Thanks Polaris and Stephie. Glad 3.5 is still working well for both of you. Will give it a try.

Polaris, sounds like things are going really well! So glad to hear it!! :thumbup:

Stephie, my heart goes out to you. So tough to have days like that where you are so tired you don't even know what to do with yourself. Hang in there honey :hugs:

We had a bad night last night. It was unusual, his gums are very swollen, and he did have a 4-hour stretch after having ibuprofen, so I'm assuming it's teething. I fed him one extra time, after the ibuprofen -- because I didn't want to make him fall asleep with that taste in his mouth! So nursed twice and resettled without nursing twice. Just a minute or two of crying each of the non-nursing times, but he couldn't stay asleep for very long afterward. Poor Munchkin. He hasn't let me check for new teeth yet this morning, but I don't want to get my hopes up too much...


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## stephie_corin

Amy, if you want to, you should try gentle removal Seaweed style and see how it goes. You've got nothing to lose and you can't function at work if things continue as they are. The fact she can settle during the day so easily is great! 

I will keep up the pain relief, I really feel like he needs it now.

SE, our boys might be getting their top teeth at the same time! I hope it passes quickly for Munchkin. Cully is really suffering. I hope you aren't too tired today! You're such a considerate mum giving him another nursing session to get rid of the taste! X


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## seaweed eater

Thanks Stephie. It would have been just a slightly worse than average night a few weeks ago! I just feel for LO since he seems tired and uncomfortable. He cried for a few minutes before his nap this morning, which he rarely does anymore. I don't want to give ibuprofen around the clock. :(

Amy, we cross posted earlier. Sorry you are having MOTN parties :( what have you been doing after she wakes up in her crib and cries? Do you ever try resettling her in there? And does she do it again? I wonder whether she would eventually just stay asleep in there if you kept at it, if you haven't tried that already! Not guaranteed by any means, but possible.

I really don't want to put any pressure on you to try sleep training, since you know your own baby best, but it sounds like she might adjust to it really well. Maybe there would be a few crappy nights if she got herself really worked up, but once she got the hang of it, if it succeeded, you really wouldn't be having hysterical crying on any sort of regular basis.
Also, have you ever just let her keep crying once she gets worked up? Obviously that's an awful thing to experience but I just wonder what would happen. I find it hard to predict with Munchkin...sometimes he can go for hours and sometimes he just decides to calm down within a few minutes. You may not find that hysterical crying always means really unsettled later on.


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## AmyS

SE - I've been picking her up lately, since I'm still in the "undecided" category. I haven't tried resettling her in her crib lately, because she isn't used to sleeping in it anymore. I've really went back to my bad parenting ways, haha!

Now that I know how well CIO went for daycare for naps, I will think again about the gradual withdrawal method. I didn't really give it a good chance that first night I tried. Her crying really terrifies me, since we've had some really bad moments when she's been really hard to settle. I do need to just let her go and see what happens, I know! If we end up watching the golf channel for a couple of hours at 2am one night, then so be it! 

Hope your Munchkin gets to feeling better with those teeth! I hate it when our babies aren't feeling well!


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## gaiagirl

Aliss, we have been doing 2.5-3.5-3.5 roughly now that we are down to 2 naps. It's been fine, except he's needed held a lot for naps and bedtime is still rocky...but he is def OK with the wake times.

SE - sorry about your night, it's funny, I sometimes feel like checking for teeth is like waiting for a BFP. Hahahahahahhaha. 

Stephie (and SE) - Hugs xxxxx our sensitive little men don't deal too well with teeth hey?! I think it just means they will be very empathetic and sensitive guys later in life, which is the best kind!

Amy - It's hard to make these decisions, I would say just do what you think is right and you can always change your plan if it isn't working xxxx.

AFM - We are ok! No further puking, other than normal spitting up. Can't wait for that to end one day. Weirdly, Fs spit up often stains! I haven't heard of this it is a bit bizarre???

We have had a busy weekend. He has now got the proper crawl technique down, and learned to sit, and pulled himself up. AND tooth #8 is reeeeeaaaallllly close. 

But sleep is still a bit tricky. He napped on me on the couch a few times and that went well, he woke up so much happier than he has been when he wakes up alone. 

Ordered an extendable twin for the floor bed, so once we get that and this last tooth breaks I'm really going to try and commit to keeping him in his room for naps/evenings. But for now we will go with it and do what's working. 

He just seems to have a LOT going on!


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## AmyS

Gaia - F is really making a lot of progress! And the 8th tooth coming? Wow! Chloe is the same age almost exactly, and she has no teeth yet! I hope your bigger mattress works out well for you, I think that's such a neat idea!


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## seaweed eater

HA! I know what you mean about the BFP. :haha: Or going into labor!

It does seem like F has a lot going on. He's lucky to have such an empathic mama! You're doing so well, keep hanging in there :hugs:


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## polaris

Stephie, hugs again!! So sorry that you are so exhausted at the moment. I really hate that feeling of beyond tiredness. I do think it sounds like teething. We are having a little break from teething at the moment and Clara is so much more settled, even though she still wakes up often, she resettles very quickly and I am actually beginning to feel less tired! I do hope things will settle down for you soon.

Gaia, wow it really sounds like F is making so much progress, exciting times! Clara is also always much happier when she wakes up with me there rather than waking up alone, although actually she is generally OK for naps, it is just evenings and night-times that she really wants me there. On the positive side though, one of the things that I really love and treasure about co-sleeping is waking up with her in the morning and seeing her beam from ear to ear when she sees me. It is just a beautiful feeling, like she is telling me how happy she is to be waking up beside me.

Amy - I do agree with seaweed that it is definitely worth a determined try at sleep training if you are considering it, most babies really do respond very well and quite quickly. I do think you need to make a definite plan and commit to it for at least a week in order to give yourself the best chance of success and avoid confusing both of you! As you know, I am waiting it out for the foreseeable future but I definitely believe that sleep training can work really well in many situations and I actually get quite jealous of people whose babies responded really well to sleep training such as CC. I do think you need to get her to settle herself to sleep in the crib in order for her to be able to sleep well in it during the night. Good luck with your decision making!

Seaweed - sorry Munchkin is having a rough time with teething again. Hope you have a better night tonight.

Aliss :hugs: I know that feeling of it all just being too much and just losing your temper, especially when you don't have OH around to help out etc. Don't beat yourself up too much though, we are none of us perfect and we've all been there, especially when you have a difficult toddler to deal with too.


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## aliss

:hugs: Amazingly enough the toddler has been an angel thank god.

It's 4:18pm and I just left P in front of Disney Jr and walked away. I've been trying to get him to nap since 1:30pm (and that was only 20 minutes)....... ugh. He was so good at this up until about 3 days ago.


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## aliss

oh ffs.... it worked!!!!!!!!!! :rofl: I told my husband to keep Alex in the basement till he's up :rofl: (dont' worry it's a nice basement...)


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## AmyS

Definitely no change of routine tonight - she is having major teething pain! Won't let me look to see if anything is popping up yet though.


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## gaiagirl

Aliss you are in a Wonder Week zone! Hope naps get better, they're rough for us right now unless I hold F or lie with him.

Soooo today I've literally held F for all his sleep. It's working and making life nicer in some ways, but I can't help worry that I'm creating a new habit...

I am definitely of the belief that we should listen to our babies cues and do what works BUT he was napping and doing evenings in his room so is it a bad idea to have him on the couch with me until things get a bit easier!?!?

I'm torn! I wanna just go with it but I'm a bit worried...

(Finally I get to watch tv and movies in the evening again with this plan lol)


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## gaiagirl

Well, scratch that. He took a one cycle nap on me and is wide awake AGAIN! Seriously he does this every evening no matter what I do!

Is it possible he is just a night owl!?!? I always read that babies need early bedtimes but he sleeps GREAT from like 9/10 pm to 7/8 am.


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## stephie_corin

Gaia, F is going through so much! No wonder his sleep is disturbed!! It's a tough decision regarding naps. I lie with Culver for all naps now. Otherwise he'd nap for 30 minutes and it would take forever to resettle him. I would prefer the freedom to get things done when he is napping but - like Polaris says, that huge beaming smile when he wakes up and sees me there is completely worth it.

In the evenings, I'm not sure what is best. C wakes 45 minutes in too but we've always rocked him or nursed him back to sleep. How many hours is he awake in the day? Could you stretch his awake times so he is more tired at night? If you let him stay up how long until he falls asleep? How does your quality of evening time compare if he sits up with you while you eat dinner rather than stays in his room (with you presumably resettling?). You guys need to do what's right for you but I'd be encouraging him to stay asleep after bedtime so you don't make a habit of him waking up at that time and expecting to play once all the developmental stuff finishes. But if it suits you guys to keep him up I can't see the harm. I'd just try and get him to take longer day naps if you can so he doesn't have a sleep deficit.

SE, I know what you mean about not wanting to give pain relief in the day. Have you tried the wet wash cloth in the freezer? You could always freeze some Cheerios!

Thank you Polaris. I'm so glad you are having a break from teething and little Clara is giving you some rest! How is Thomas going with his nap? Is he still in with daddy?

Aliss, have you thought of dropping to two naps? I could be wrong but you guys are early birds right? We are too and do sleep from 6-6. If P is taking longer naps you could easily stretch him 6-530am - ignore me if I'm wrong about you guys getting up early... Sleep deprivation and all that! Lol about the toddler in the basement!

Amy, good luck! I hope a tooth pops out! Cully is the same and won't let me near his mouth when he is teething! 

I ended up giving nurofen twice last night. At 730pm because he couldn't fall asleep and at 3am. It makes me feel sooooo guilty. I never thought I'd give my child so much pain medication!!! I was reading the leaflet that comes with his paracetamol and it said daily use for several months can cause liver and kidney damage, which really frightened me. He doesn't get pain medication daily but it's been at least 2 x per week for the last month (on average). 

He definitely slept better with the medication... But still no teeth through! So it's clearly not a long term solution.


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## aliss

Thanks Gaia and Stephie!

Ahhh wonderweeks. I found these held very true for my 1st and are hit/miss with P. I think you are dead on though!!! Thank goodness they tend to disappear after 12 months.

Stephie~ unfortunately yes OH is up at 5am sharp for work and P is in our room (we have a very small house and that is the way it has to be). He's actually sleeping right now though (6:20am here) and had a great night. He ended up waking up at 5pm, then falling asleep by 7:30pm.

He absolutely sleeps better with a 7pm bedtime instead o 6pm. The problem is that he only had 2x20 minute cat naps in the day so I had no choice but to let him snooze at 4 (on the couch while I made dinner which was quite nice as OH played w Alex in the basement and I got some PEACE AND QUIET!!!!!!!!!!!1). The "basement" has computer games, a giant Bus playhouse, and all the Disney Jr you can handle... ;)

So our next goal is to aim for 7pm bedtime. Yes, drop the 3rd nap is important. He _usually_ does 2 naps but 



speak of the devil!!! brb.


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## minties

Aliss, Sophie is really close in age to P, her awake times are 1hr 45 morning, then 2 hours, 2 hours 15, 2 hours 30. But. She's a good napper, better than night sleeper. Thomz at this age was 2hrs 45+.

thinking of dropping her to 2 naps as I can't fit in 3 solid ones as well as all the awake time.


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## gaiagirl

Well, he slept from 10pm to 8:15am, with maybe 2 wake ups? Pretty awesome sleep for me so it's hard to really want to change that, lol. But it's not a long term solution since in 5 months he will need to be up around 6:30/7. And also I do like to have baby free evening time :)

I definitely HAVE been able to get him to sleep and go back to sleep, I know it is possible...but it maybe works about 25% of the time, the majority of the time he just thinks its a nap and stays up another 1.5hrs. 

Wake times are about 2.5, 3.5, 3.5 and I wouldn't want to go any longer than that!?!?

That damn 8th tooth is super close so mayyyyybe it'll change!? I don't know though, I'm not giving him anything and he's sleeping fine when he WANTS to! Lol.

Stephie, I feel the same as you about meds. I try to stick to nights only and def not every night, and I try everything else first. Something that worked for me (maybe he just liked the coldness and taste but whatever) was to simmer some cloves in water and then soak a cloth in the clove tea and freeze it. That really helped one evening :)

I have heard good things about clove oil in some coconut oil rubbed on gums, but I'm hesitant with essential oils and babies. I don't like the homeopathic stuff either. But look into both of those, they might be a good alternative? At least the clove oil could be...I know it's amazing for adults!


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## polaris

Gaia, Clara went through a phase of late bedtimes at about the same age as F I think. She always woke 45 minutes after bedtime but she would have gone back to sleep easily, but then she went through a phase of not wanting to go back to sleep and I ended up having to get her up a few times while I got her brother settled and she then had a late bedtime and slept so much better. So I just went with it and got her up when she woke after 45 minutes and then had bedtime for about 9 or 9.30. She was also sleeping late in the mornings, often until 8.30 or 9. For us it was actually a pretty short phase, I would say it was only about two weeks or so. We had been on two naps and an early bedtime for ages but it was like she just went back to three naps and a late bedtime. Now she goes to bed between 7 and 7.30 and is up between 6 and 7. So I wouldn't worry too much about 5 months time, a lot can change in the meantime.

Steph, I am the same way about giving meds. I really hate doing it. I am not a big fan of taking medications myself either. The one thing that I would say is that it does depend on the baby how much pain medication is necessary. Thomas rarely had anything, I don't think I ever gave him pain meds "just" for teething, I only gave them if he was clearly unwell and usually only if he had a raised temperature. I presumed that I would be the same way for Clara but she has had a lot more medications than Thomas ever had. She just seems to suffer a lot more from teething pain and it really affects her ability to fall asleep and stay asleep. I do worry a lot about giving medications unnecessarily or just for bad sleep rather than pain. But I also don't want her to suffer unnecessarily just because of my issues with giving medication! 

Amy - sorry to hear about the severe teething pain, I hate teething!

Aliss, what's your daily routine like at the moment? Two naps definitely sounds like a good plan but you might need an earlier bedtime while he adjusts?

AFM, I am working a little bit on trying to reduce Clara's dependence on nursing for falling asleep. Usually what happens is that I nurse her until she is very nearly asleep and then she rolls over onto her tummy and goes off to sleep herself. Sometimes though she can't get to sleep quickly and she will roll back and want to nurse a little bit more before going to sleep. So in that situation, I am trying to encourage her to try and settle without that extra bit of nursing, still lying beside her but just not nursing her again unless she starts getting upset. Tonight it worked really well and she went off to sleep herself. The problem is that it is quicker to just nurse her down, it takes longer for her to settle herself. Which is fine when OH is here but not really possible when he's not. Anyway I'll keep going with it, I would really like her to be able to put herself to sleep without nursing if necessary.


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## polaris

Wow the B&B curse really got me bad last night! I don't have a visible clock in the bedroom but it felt like she was awake every twenty minutes. I definitely think teething pain but stupidly didn't give her any pain meds because I wanted to see if she would settle down without it and then later on I was just too exhausted to actually go downstairs and get it and force her to take it (she hates it). So tired this morning!! And I can't actually see any signs of any new teeth either so nothing to actually show for it.


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## stephie_corin

Oh Polaris I'm so sorry!!! The night I did my sleep log was like that. It's hard to believe you will ever feel normal again after such a bad night. Maybe take the medication up with you tonight so you have it on hand just in case. I do hope tonight isn't as bad for you. Is DH around to help tonight? I hope the tooth or teeth she is working on pop out soon! I think your nursing to sleep plan is a good one. I'm sure you'll have great success once the teething ends!

Gaia, thanks so much for the clove tip! I've got some cloves in the kitchen so I will be brewing some clove tea this afternoon before bed. What a great night sleep by F! I hope it continues for you! 

It seems like all our babies are teething right now?!?


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## AmyS

Polaris - Sorry for the bad night! Chloe hates the meds too, so I dread trying to give it to her in the middle of the night. Then I know we will be up for a long time after! Do you think it's better to go without a clock in the room? I hate looking at my cell phone at 2am and knowing I only have a few hours left to try to get some sleep. 

minties - My daughter is the same age as yours, and I just recently dropped her to 2 naps. Actually, she kind of did it herself. Our nights still kind of suck, but I've noticed they have gotten better - and she doesn't cat nap as much anymore (don't know if that was a problem for you!). Our wake times now tend to be 3/3/3.5. 
____________

We had a wierd night last night - Chloe ended her last nap at 2:30, so I had her sleeping by 6pm. She was very, very tired, but oddly, not cranky! Then, she decided that she was wide awake after 45 minutes. I had to cook supper, so I ended up bringing her out to the kitchen with me. I was planning on having a bad night after that. I ended up getting her back to sleep by 8:45, she slept really good until 12:30am, then I couldn't get her back down until 2am - and she remained restless the rest of the night! 

Also, as long as she's not teething, I will be teaching her a new way to fall asleep: in her crib. I've been getting better at leaving her to fuss/cry a little to make sure that she doesn't always escalate to hysterics, and she doesn't! I know she can do this, and I'm pretty sure she's ready. I know I'm ready. Her little body will not stop moving at night, so she doesn't easily fall asleep on the bottle anymore. I'm not going to follow any specific method, I'm just going to follow my own instincts. As long as I am consistent with trying out our new way, she will eventually get it. And if she doesn't, I'm not opposed to revenge when she's a teenager - and then I can write my own book, which I'm sure will become a bestseller with all of the sleep deprived mommies out there!


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## Noelle610

Amy, I personally believe that when babies become mobile they need to learn to get comfy and fall asleep on their own. I think we often hinder their progress by trying to soothe them too much with laying them down and patting their back, when in reality if we give them an opportunity to figure it out then often will and quickly. I think of it this way. When I'm trying to fall asleep, I will sometimes toss and turn or fluff my pillow. It can be a little frustrating if I'm having trouble getting comfortable, but I'd be pretty annoyed if someone kept moving me or rubbing me! 

I know not everyone will agree, but just my two cents ;)


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## AmyS

Noelle610 said:


> Amy, I personally believe that when babies become mobile they need to learn to get comfy and fall asleep on their own. I think we often hinder their progress by trying to soothe them too much with laying them down and patting their back, when in reality if we give them an opportunity to figure it out then often will and quickly. I think of it this way. When I'm trying to fall asleep, I will sometimes toss and turn or fluff my pillow. It can be a little frustrating if I'm having trouble getting comfortable, but I'd be pretty annoyed if someone kept moving me or rubbing me!
> 
> I know not everyone will agree, but just my two cents ;)

Agreed! I have noticed this when I'm rocking her during the night. She will push against me and spread out on the pillow I have on my lap. She doesn't really want to snuggle, and she doesn't just lay there like a baby lump anymore. Part of the problem with that rock 'n play is that she is strapped in and can't move around. So when I put her in her crib, she isn't used to all the movement, and it really messes her up. :dohh:


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## gaiagirl

I agree it's good to give them the chance! When F is trying to get to sleep and tossing and turning I try to stay hands off and just lie quietly like a lump beside him :) More often he will come back for more nursing if he can't quite get to sleep though, I think he's just at the beginning of the lonnnnnnng process of learning.


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## stephie_corin

Amy, your approach sounds great!! I like your optimism and balanced approach to Chloe's sleep. You're a great mummy and doing a wonderful job! Good luck with the crib endeavours and I do hope you have a good night tonight.

Noelle, that's really interesting! I've noticed Culver fighting me sometimes when I want to soothe him and once or twice I've put him down so I can take a breather and he has just fallen asleep a few seconds after I put him down (after what feels like hours of trying to rock him to sleep). Mostly he wants to be held though, but maybe he is slowly getting there.

Gaia... Lol at you being lump-like in the night!


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## missk1989

Amy can i ask what you are planning to do? Ive kind of tried cc, and disapearing chair but he gets hysterical lying there wondring why i havent picked him up so e.ventually i give hima cuddle and he falls asleep instantly and i can put im in his cot. Thing is though he sleeps great for naps in his cot but after the first 2 hours at night he is up so often smtimes i dont ev get back to sleep before he wakes again. In my bed me lying next to im is enouh for him to get to sleep(not sre if you ca class that as ss) but if i sit next to his cot he just screams for 45mins hen lets me pat him to sleep. My OH is on about sleeping in the spare room if i cat get him in hs cot and i dont want this! any ideas ladies?


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## keese22

Currently in the middle of the 4 month sleep regression but when we come out the other side and hoping to sort out oscars sleep. 
ATM I feed him to sleep and wait until he's dead to the world before I putting him down. I'm hoping I can teach him to self soothe . His naps are a nightmare and it would be great if he would nap on his cot instead of on me/sling/pram.
How many naps should a 4-5 month old be having (not sure when this regression will end!) and any tips or things that I can be reading to try help him nap better /self soothe (I don't want to use cc/CIO)
Thanks!


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## NotNic

Hi everyone. Sorry I've been a little behind on things here. We are currently in a bad patch. F has chicken pox and his incisor and first molar are trying to break through too. Nursery told me he was clingy last week, and then his sleep was awful Friday onwards. He got a bad nappy rash on Saturday night (but he was staying with my mum so I didn't see it firsthand)so when I saw spots on Sunday I assumed it was marks left from that. By Monday afternoon a few strange spots appeared and then a few nasty blister ones on his legs. The chicken pox isn't causing him massive problems but the teeth are really doing him in. He is up to the max he can take of painkillers and he just cries so hard he is shaking from the pain. It's been so bad that I have just had to let him cry at bedtime otherwise he just won't sleep. During the day I may get a second nap out of him if I hold him which I'd rather not do as he's too long to sleep on me comfortably and properly. At least the teeth are almost distracting him from itching.


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## rmsh1

keese22 said:


> Currently in the middle of the 4 month sleep regression but when we come out the other side and hoping to sort out oscars sleep.
> ATM I feed him to sleep and wait until he's dead to the world before I putting him down. I'm hoping I can teach him to self soothe . His naps are a nightmare and it would be great if he would nap on his cot instead of on me/sling/pram.
> How many naps should a 4-5 month old be having (not sure when this regression will end!) and any tips or things that I can be reading to try help him nap better /self soothe (I don't want to use cc/CIO)
> Thanks!

I have the pdf of the NCSS book if you want it? Just teaches you gentler methods than crying


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## seaweed eater

:hugs: Hugs ladies...especially to all teethers and moms of teethers, and ESPECIALLY to NotNic and Finlay. That sounds just awful :nope: hope he is better soon!

Munchkin is having a challenging week as well. I think the daycare transition has been hard on him. They think he's been fussy because of his teeth, but his sleep hasn't been that much worse (although I'm sure now that I've written that it will be) so I don't think we're very close yet.

Looking forward to catching up more with you all soon :hugs:


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## gaiagirl

Notnic! Hugs xxxxxxx that's awful! It will be over soon!!!!

SE I'm sorry it's been a rough week :(

Not much new here. Again a failed 8pm bedtime, he took a 30 min nap. 

Good news? Got him down at 9:30 and he slept until...wait for it...3:30!!!!!!!!!!! What!?!? Amazing!

Shots today though, perfect timing just as he does a big stretch! Ugh!


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## stephie_corin

keese22 said:


> Currently in the middle of the 4 month sleep regression but when we come out the other side and hoping to sort out oscars sleep.
> ATM I feed him to sleep and wait until he's dead to the world before I putting him down. I'm hoping I can teach him to self soothe . His naps are a nightmare and it would be great if he would nap on his cot instead of on me/sling/pram.
> How many naps should a 4-5 month old be having (not sure when this regression will end!) and any tips or things that I can be reading to try help him nap better /self soothe (I don't want to use cc/CIO)
> Thanks!

Hi Keese and welcome... 4 month sleep regression is tough! Depending on how long your LO naps for, you should be aiming for 3-4 naps at that age. You could get by on 3 is they are long ones but if he is taking cat naps definitely give 4 naps. You should be aiming for 1.75-2 hours max awake time during the day. Usually the first awake period is the shortest and the last awake period is the longest. So the first nap might happen only 1.5 hours after waking but bedtime might be 2 hours after the last nap.

My boy, almost 8 months, still can't self settle so I don't have any tips but I'm sure some of the others will have some good points for you! One thing I can think of is putting him down 'drowsy but awake' but I've never had any luck with this. Keep posting, this is a great support group. X


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## stephie_corin

Notnic, that sounds so tough for your poor little man. I'm so sorry!!! What a lot to be going through all at the same time. I hope he is on the mend soon and those incisors come through quickly. It amazes me what a tough time some babies have with teeth while others just breeze through it. Big hugs to you and F.

SE, poor munchkin! Has he gone to longer hours now or just the new room? Or both? I hope he settles back into the swing of things. Give him a squeezy hug from me and Culver.

Gaia, good luck with the shots! Bad news about the failed bedtime but wow! Great sleeping by F! That's awesome!

Weirdly Cs sleep has become better. He's back to waking every hour with a few two hour stretches (at least he isn't waking every 10 minutes!!) but no sign of teeth. Does the pain come and go sometimes before teeth appear? It's so strange. I also thought I'd try letting him have a go at self settling at 3am. I fed him until he was drowsy and popped him down. Big mistake! I kept thinking he would get there and he obviously keep thinking mummy would pick him up... Next thing it's 5am! Fail... We did get some practice nursing lying down but he won't nod off like that. I have to rock him to send him to sleep most times.

I just wanted to update on nappies - I got a cloth nappy and a wool cover. The wool cover worked great for leaks. The cloth nappy is awesome but I'm not sure I'm prepared to make the switch now - I really wish we'd got into it earlier. It seems so much nicer on his skin, especially in the heat. Maybe we will switch? I'll need to discuss it with DH. I haven't used cloth for night yet but I've decided to start changing him when he wakes in the night. His nappy is so wet from so much night nursing that its wet against his skin for a lot of the night. He doesn't have a nappy rash but it can't be comfortable. So we did two changes last night. I'm picking times when he is upset and not settling easily anyway .

Oh, one more thing... I just read there is an 8 month sleep regression!!! OMG! Please tell me his sleep is not going to get even worse!! Ha! X


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## VikkiD

Little update from me - Daniel is one on Sunday it's gone so quick some days we have one nap other two naps, bedtime is good not perfect but I can't complain I put his bedtime back an hour to 7:45 an he now sleeps till 6.30 - 7am he does most night wake if he doesn't settle himself I go in pick him up for a couple of mins then straight back down so it's a work in progress but things are definitely getting there now :)


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## AmyS

missk1989 - I am basically doing gradual withdrawal. Chloe can get really worked up, so I am going to work really hard on putting her down really drowsy at first, with lots of soothing. And if she is having a hard time, I'll probably put a time limit on it (like I did last night), and then pick her up. I think eventually she'll get better at self soothing, but I don't want to push her too much if she isn't quite ready. Sounds like you are having the same kind of rough nights that I am! It's hard to fall back to sleep sometimes! I think you are doing really well if he lets you pat him to sleep. If you were going to do gradual withdrawal, you would just slowly decrease the amount of time you pat him until he doesn't need it anymore. 

Keese22 - If I could go back in time - my daughter is 7.5 months, and she still sleeps on me for naps! I would probably start trying one nap a day in his crib. (I'm no expert though!) Also, it might be worth it to start putting him down a little sooner than you usually do at night, until you are putting him down drowsy but not quite asleep. 

NotNic - Poor F!!! Glad the chicken pox isn't causing him too much trouble, but that's too much trauma for the little guy! Hope it passes soon!

SE - Poor Munchkin! Daycare is a hard transition, but hopefully he is over the worst of it. 

Gaia - Hope the shots didn't make for a horrible night! 

Stephie - I like to hope that babies can't hit EVERY regression!!!! Glad Cully is finally giving you some longer stretches. I worry about diaper changes at night too. I use the overnight diapers, but I think it would be very uncomfortable to sit in a heavy wet diaper all night. Yuck.
_______________

Why, when I want to start a different routine, do we start having teething pain every night?? Or last night she had a really stuffy nose, so I just put her in the good old rock 'n play to keep her elevated. 

Really rough night, with one 4.5 hour MOTN waking. I tried putting her in her crib during that time. I put her projector on, handed her the wubbanub, and then she rolled around and babbled for 20 minutes. She finally started fussing/crying, then got really worked up. I gave it an hour before picking her up, but by then she was really hard to settle, and it took forever to get her asleep enough to put down. It didn't go so well!

What do you ladies think about using the projector during sleep training? Bad idea?? It only stays on for about 8 minutes and plays some nice, soothing music. I turned it on 7 or 8 times last night when she was in her crib. That was not productive, but I wonder if she would only need it on once after she learns to ss. Maybe I shouldn't use it at all.


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## AmyS

Now I really have incentive to get her in the crib! I stopped at the daycare over lunch to visit her, and they told me she scooted herself backwards out of her rock 'n play at naptime! She didn't get hurt, thank goodness! They aren't going to use it anymore, and will be back to CIO for her naps to get her used to the crib at daycare. They said she cried for 10 minutes today, then fell asleep on her tummy for 30 minutes.


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## stephie_corin

Amy, 4.5 hours?! You poor thing! Please be extra gentle with yourself. It sounds like now is the perfect time to work on the crib for night sleep if daycare is also doing this.

How does she respond to the projector? It could be a useful night cue (during your bedtime routine) but I don't think I'd use it in the middle of the night. It might be too stimulating for her. I think (just my opinion) that night wakings should be kept calm and relaxed with as little stimulation as possible.

Good luck and I'm crossing every finger that tonight is better for you. Once she is taking all of her sleep in the crib I'm sure she will adjust much more quickly.

Big hugs xxx


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## AmyS

Stephie - I don't think I'd use it for MOTN either. Last night, she was wide awake anyway, and I wasn't thinking clearly, so I kept pushing that darn button to keep it on! Hopefully, things will go quickly since daycare is working on her naps at the same time. I can only hope! Thank goodness tomorrow is Friday - I can just pretend to be awake at work!


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## seaweed eater

Aliss, I hope things have calmed down! It always sounds tricky to juggle your three men... :winkwink:

Amy, 4.5 hours?! You poor thing!! :hugs: I really hope things get better. When you do feel up to sleep training, or whatever, I think figuring out what you're willing to do consistently is exactly the right approach. Most babies can adapt to most things (within reason of course) so as long as she learns what to expect, I bet she'll do great. Regarding the projector, I would agree with Stephie that it probably wouldn't be a good idea in the long term. If she were already really used to it that would be one thing, but it doesn't seem like the best thing to introduce now that your routines are in flux.

Gaia, we had late bedtimes at F's age too, although I know he's been on a later schedule for a while. I say go with what works! And definitely don't worry about 5 months from now, that's forever in baby time. Are you still holding F for all his sleep? Were you holding him for those long stretches? I can understand why you are torn about that...I would say it depends on how badly things have been going. If he's chronically sleep deprived unless you hold him, I don't see how you'll be able to work on things anyway, so you may as well hold him...but if he's doing ok without being held then I would consider sticking it out. But of course it's up to you.

Stephie, don't feel too guilty about giving pain medication! :hugs: You are really trying to balance things. Of course it's hard to do that perfectly, especially when they can't talk to us, but the fact that it helped his sleep suggests to me that he really was uncomfortable. It's not as if getting sleep isn't important for his long-term health too, you know? I hope you keep having some better nights! And that the teeth are through really soon!!!
Regarding diapers, I don't know what kind you got (pockets?) but we never had any luck using just cloth at night. If you are going to change him anyway, it may work for you. I'm glad the wool cover is working well!
I think the 8 month regression has a lot to do with motor milestones. Cully's already crawling and pulling up, so it may not be as bad for you. Here's hoping!

Polaris, every 20 minutes is brutal!!! :hugs: Poor you guys! We have a dose of ibuprofen ready in LO's room every night in case he needs it during the night...think someone on this thread suggested that. I've only actually used that dose two or three times, but it helps to know it's there in case I need it (probably actually reduces how much I medicate at bedtime because I don't feel like that's my only chance). I really hope last night was better!

Missk, what is LO's schedule like during the day? Could he be overtired (or undertired)? Regarding sleep training, it sounds like CIO might be a good option for you, or CC with long intervals. Or send OH in if you think his presence would be less upsetting. I would encourage you to try going past 45 minutes if you are comfortable with that (well, as comfortable as one can be). I know it sounds horrible but they really can sometimes calm themselves down even after screaming for that long. And if he does manage to learn how to self-settle, he'll gradually be able to do it in less and less time, even if it took him over 45 minutes the first time.

Keese, anywhere from 3 to 5 naps is good at that age, and a wake time of around 1.5-2 hours. Short naps are likely to lengthen on their own in a couple of months as he drops to 2 and lengthens his wake times. In terms of self-settling, I think it might help to just familiarize yourself with different methods so you know what different options are out there. Mybabysleepguide is one website that covers different methods, and I'm sure others on this thread could suggest other resources. Hang in there, I know that 4 month regression is awful :hugs:

Vikki, happy almost birthday Daniel! :cake: sounds like things are going great!!

AFM, still waiting out this transition. He's changing both classroom and schedule this week. I've been staying with him all morning to play with him in his new room, and then leaving in the afternoon as usual. He's made a lot of progress already, but he's still not his usual self. He's clearly getting overtired, because he can't ever extend his naps. And it is affecting his nighttime sleep now. I'm sure he just needs to gets used to the new space. I should count my blessings -- at least he's going to sleep there at all, and taking bottles pretty well. Stay away, curse.


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## missk1989

Seaweed eater- don't think he is over or under tired. He usually has 2-3 hours nap in two naps finishing no more than 4 hours before bedtime. He has a routine no more than 15 mins or he is crying for bed. I'm pretty sure the problem is that he can't self settle so cc or CIO may work but I'm not sure i can do it especially with oh saying he doesn't like it. I'm going to talk to the HV about it I think.


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## polaris

Hi everyone.

I've been quite busy over the last couple of days so I haven't been around much. Clara is still waking up a lot during the night, it is definitely teething pain. She is quite dramatic, she has a really high pitched cry, OH described it as sounding like somebody was pulling out her teeth, I pointed out that this kind of is not too far removed from what is happening to her, poor thing. She definitely suffers a lot more with teething than Thomas did.

Notnic - you have my sympathies with both the chicken pox and teething. At least the chicken pox isn't too bad though.

Keese - welcome to the thread. I hope the dreaded 4 month regression passes quickly for you hun.

Vikki - sounds like Daniel is sleeping really well now! :happydance:

Gaia - wow that was an amazing long stretch of sleep! I actually wouldn't know what to think if Clara ever slept that long! Really hope it's the start of a new pattern for you guys.

Amy - :hugs: 4.5 hours in the middle of the night is really no fun at all, you poor thing. I agree with the others about the projector. Scary about the rock and play but at least she wasn't hurt, definitely time to get her used to sleeping in the crib though! Hope the teeth have settled down a bit now and you have a better night tonight.

Seaweed, it definitely sounds like he has a lot going on with all the changes. I guess there's not much you can do except give him a bit of time to adjust. As you say, at least he is managing to get to sleep in the new environment, hopefully longer naps will come with time. I hate it when they are clearly getting overtired and their overall sleep pattern starts to suffer. :hugs: 

Steph - good news that Cully is sleeping a little better. I am always so much more positive about everything when Clara has a stretch of somewhat better nights - even if our good nights would be other people's bad nights. LOL. I don't think every baby has a sleep regression at 8 months. I don't think we ever really recovered from the four month sleep regression so we didn't really have any further to regress. 

Regarding cloth nappies - I used disposables with Thomas but have used cloth from birth with Clara. I actually really regret not switching to cloth with Thomas after the first six months or so when I had found my feet a bit. If you have more children you will be able to reuse the nappies so it really is never too late to switch. I do think cloth nappies would be more comfortable in the heat, apparently they are a couple of degrees cooler than disposables.


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## polaris

missk1989 said:


> Seaweed eater- don't think he is over or under tired. He usually has 2-3 hours nap in two naps finishing no more than 4 hours before bedtime. He has a routine no more than 15 mins or he is crying for bed. I'm pretty sure the problem is that he can't self settle so cc or CIO may work but I'm not sure i can do it especially with oh saying he doesn't like it. I'm going to talk to the HV about it I think.

Missk - sorry I missed your post. Your LO sounds a bit like Clara. She really has an aversion to the cot and much prefers to sleep in bed with me. I have no advice for you because I ended up giving up on trying to get her into the cot and am full-time cosleeping with her now. You could definitely try CC but to be honest I think it would be very hard if not impossible without the support of your OH so I think you would need to get him on board with whatever approach you decide on.


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## seaweed eater

Missk, your routine sounds perfect. Your OH's opinion does put you in a tight spot :hugs: if you are leaning toward CC or CIO, though, the HV will probably back you up, based on what I've heard about HVs, so maybe that will help him come around? You do both need to be committed to it, though, or at least tolerant of it.


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## gaiagirl

Thanks SE, he definitely was NOT held for the 6 hour stretch! Lol, my arms would fall off! I put him to bed at 9:30 in his room, brought him to our bed at 11 and he stayed asleep next to me until 3:30. I've only been holding him for naps and a few evenings. Mostly my reason was to get his 2 naps a bit longer, and also because I don't have the new twin mattress yet so putting him down in his room is uncomfortable on a crib mattress lol.

I think when the room is all properly set up with the twin ill try to get him back in there.

Shots yesterday, so last night was fine, 3/4 hour stretches but no 6!


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## stephie_corin

Amy, how did your night go? I hope the crib worked well- actually I think you're just approaching your night, so good luck if that's the case!

SE... You are so thoughtful. I love that you are staying with him in the mornings to ease the transition. Are the sleeping conditions in the new room different to what he is used to? Or is it just the new faces? I hope Munchkin adapts quickly and starts taking longer naps... Would the daycare staff help him back to sleep for a little while until he gets used to it? I do hope you are right about the 8 month sleep regression! So do you use cloth during the day and disposables at night? I suspect this is where we are headed (with our wool cover of course!).

Polaris, big hugs to little Clara!! Poor baby! She sounds like she is suffering so much!! Thanks for the encouragement to use cloth nappies. I'm quite excited now and am going to buy some more today. DH is on board - he still doesn't believe me they will be cooler than disposables but he thinks they will be more comfortable and better for our little man.

Can I just take a self indulgent moment and say how great my DH is? He has been so open minded about bed sharing, breastfeeding past 6 months, baby wearing and now cloth nappies. They are all things he is not used to seeing and I'm proud of him.

Missk, good luck with the HV and your sleep training decision hon.

Gaia, F is sleeping so well! I hope this continues for both of you! And yes, I imagine it would be hard to nurse him down on your cot mattress! Lol.

Notnic, I hope things have improved for you guys. Thinking of you.

We had a pretty bad night. It started with him fighting bedtime for 1.5 hours, finally falling asleep at 730 and waking at 8pm with a huge nappy leak. Poor monkey! His pjs were soaked. So we had to strip him down to his birthday suit and that woke him up completely and it was pretty downhill from there. We'll get there eventually!!

Has anyone seen any teeth!?!


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## seaweed eater

I really wish I hadn't let Munchkin's teachers talk me into doing full-time and the classroom change at the same time. :( It really is not going well. Last night in under 9 1/2 hours of sleep he woke up 3 times and was wide awake at 4:30. I left him in bed until 5:45 and he didn't even try to go back to sleep. That's a grand total of 10 1/2 hours of sleep in the last 24. And I did give pain relief last night. I think I'm going to keep him home for his morning nap for a week or two while he gets used to the new environment and to taking his afternoon nap there.

This is going to make me into one of those parents teachers complain about who won't entertain anyone else's opinion about their kid! :haha:

More in a bit :sleep:


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## AmyS

Gaia - I hold Chloe for naps too. If I didn't, she would only sleep for 30 minutes at a time. I think once I get these nights sorted out, I will try a nap in the crib now and then. I definitely don't mind the snuggles!

missk - I agree, whatever approach you decide, you really should have the hubby on board! 

Stephie - What a rough night! I have no diaper leaking advice - so far we've been lucky. So glad your hubby is on board with everything - he is very lucky to have you though! No teeth here yet!
_______________

Last night, I told DH to take the Rock 'N Play away - we aren't using it anymore! She spent all night in her crib, but she did wake up every 45 minutes or every hour. I was so proud of her though! She is doing so much better with the crib than she did even 3 weeks ago!

As for sleep training - since they are doing straight CIO at daycare, I decided to start off a little more gently, because she isn't used to sleeping in the crib all night yet, and she has a stuffy nose again - crying will only make that worse! 

I still fed her to sleep, but I put her down right away instead of rocking her for 20 minutes like I usually do. For her night wakings, I either patted her in her crib, or rocked her for a few minutes before putting her back down. I also gave her her lovey every time she woke up, to hopefully associate the lovey with going to sleep. And I waited out her fussing to see if she would put herself back to sleep, and she did a few times. 

One thing that really surprised me - her night wakings were so much calmer than they have been! She usually fights me and takes a while to settle, but last night, she calmed quickly if I picked her up, and she was easy to pat to sleep when I tried. 

Trying not to bring on the BnB curse by saying this, but I think she's ready this time for the crib and to settle on her own! 

Tonight, I think I will do things the same way, since her nose is still pretty stuffy. If she starts getting better by tomorrow, then I will probably try more settling in the crib when she wakes. 

Baby steps...


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## gaiagirl

Great news Amy! Night wakings are soooo much better when they're quick and painless! 

SE I think that's a good plan, I would/will sooooo be the same parent. And why not? You know munchkin better than anyone and you deal with the fallout at night, not them! Changes are hard for babes with no words to express or understand. Follow your gut!

Stephie - Your hubby sounds great! Mine has been awesome too, just wants to do whatever works and is best for F. Health Canada recommends BFing to age 2, which I hope to do and he is totally on board! Besides, how the hell would we get him to sleep otherwise! Lol

Tried bedtime when he was clearly tired at 7:30, in his room. He nursed/slept for 30 min and when I tried to unlatch he woke up happy and ready to play. Argh. Seems no matter where/how I try and put him to bed this happens. 

Went to sleep at 9:30 and slept until 8am. Wake ups more frequent last night, but not terrible.

Sighhhhhh, what to do with my night owl!?

Maybe the time change in Nov will correct him even if he doesn't change by then? Lol


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## polaris

Gaia, I would just go with a later bedtime for the moment. My guess is that he will naturally move earlier over the next few months.

Amy - you sound a lot more relaxed about everything, it sounds like Chloe is really making progress at self-settling too!

Stephie, your night sounds awful. :hugs: Hope you have a better night tonight. How frustrating to get a nappy leak so early in the night! Could it be the fit of the nappies not suiting him - I think I would maybe try a different brand/size. Your DH sounds so lovely and supportive - it really makes such a difference.

Seaweed, I'm so sorry to hear how much Munchkin is struggling at the moment. I think you are right to follow your instincts about what is best for him. You know him best and his teachers just are never going to be as tuned in to him as you are. So I think you should do what works for him and stuff what anyone else thinks!

Tonight was the first night in about two weeks that I did bedtimes on my own (we were away for a week and then OH has been off work this week too). It didn't go too well. Clara has just been taking ages to get settled over the past few days which is OK when OH is here but not great when I'm on my own with the two of them. Every time I thought she was settling and snuck out, she was awake crying again a couple of minutes later. I know that she just wants me there when she's falling asleep because she doesn't do that if I lie down beside her when she's going to sleep. But sometimes it's been taking an hour to get her properly settled and I can't leave Thomas alone for that long obviously. I don't really know what to do. I think maybe I should just not let him nap on the days that OH won't be here in the evening so that I can put him to bed before Clara and then have as long as I need to get her settled. But it seems so unfair on him because he still gets quite tired and cranky without a nap. Arghh what to do!!


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## gaiagirl

Polaris, thanks. I am just going to go with it and I think when his new bed arrives it could get better. Just unfortunate to not get my couch and tv baby free veg time :)

I agree you need Thomas in bed first nights like that...tough call on how that could happen. Are their bedtimes fairly close? What's better, keeping Clara up or making Thomas go to bed earlier?


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## stephie_corin

SE I definitely think you've made the right call. Munchkin is obviously a sensitive and intelligent boy and some babies just need longer to adapt to things. Taking it on his time can only be a good thing. 

Amy, what great news! I'm sorry she was waking so frequently. You must be so so exhausted. But it's great that you are seeing real progress and she seems to be getting used to her crib. Hopefully the time between wakings will extend and you'll manage to get some sleep yourself!

Gaia, it must be tough not having any downtime. I really struggle mentally on nights I don't get at least an hour in the evenings just to sit and stare at the TV or to go on the Internet! TV can be good for the tired mummy's soul sometimes! I think you said you were doing 2.5, 3.5, 3.5 right? You could always try and increase his wake times just ever so slightly and see if it makes a difference? But if you're happy to have him up, no need to do a thing of course!

Polaris, that's such a tough one! How heavy is Thomas? Could you combine their bedtimes? Maybe put them both to sleep at the same time on the futon - sing and snuggle together and then snuggle Thomas while you nurse Clara (not quite sure how that would work? He could snuggle into you maybe) and lie with them both before transferring Thomas. 

I'm feeling a bit down about breastfeeding at the moment. C has started biting and fighting me and I can't stop the nursing session because he only feeds to sleep! He's desperate to nurse and then bites. He's also thrashing around and slapping and pulling hair... I wonder if his awake time needs to be extended?! Up until the last few days he has been calm and relaxed and fed to sleep really easily. Do you think this is just a teething thing? He wants to bite on everything at the moment! I love breastfeeding, so I really hope this is just a phase that passes quickly!

X


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## seaweed eater

Stephie, so sorry about your breastfeeding troubles. :hugs: It does sound like it could be teething-related, but that doesn't make it any easier. Maybe switching positions would help? Like having him sit up? I also tend to switch nurse when Munchkin gets frustrated, but you are probably doing that already. I hope it is a quick phase. :hugs: It's so lovely to hear your appreciation for your DH! <3 I'm glad he has been so open-minded. I hope switching to cloth goes well for you. I bet it will! It's been great for us during the day (we used them at night too for something like 5 months, until we started running into various problems that seemed much more easily solved with disposables).
Lots of hugs to you and Cully. It's been a rough stretch for you. I hope things get much easier soon :hugs: oh and happy 8 months!!

Amy, it sounds like things are going really well! :thumbup: Lots of progress! I hope last night went well too. Please keep us updated.

Gaia, I hope the relatively good sleep continues for you! I don't think there's anything wrong with waiting 5 months for the time change :rofl: I know I used this spring's change to help Munchkin shift to a later schedule, and it did help! I agree with Polaris, I bet he will move earlier soon on his own, especially once the milestone stuff calms down a little. He must be into everything now!!

Polaris, that is a tough problem. I like Stephie's idea of letting T cuddle with you while C goes to sleep. Do you think he'd lie still enough for that? It sounds like you're not on your own very frequently, so if having T go without a nap is the best you can do, then I say do that. What about giving him a shorter nap -- would he still go to sleep earlier but maybe not be as tired? I know you said he used to be thrown off by even very brief car naps so maybe it doesn't matter how long it is?

Bizarrely, we had 10 hour STTN last night. I'm not complaining!! He did take a proper morning nap at home so will definitely keep doing that. Thank you all for your support <3 my feelings about this transition are up and down. He's just such a happy guy usually but clearly is not liking the change. Just reminding myself that there are good reasons for it and that it's for the best, and that it took a little while to get adjusted in his old classroom too but then he thrived there. Change is just hard! (But it's much much better when everyone is sleeping!!)


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## gaiagirl

That's fabulous SE!!!!! 

Stephie - F bites when there's a lot of teething pain too. It's really hard and makes nursing to sleep stressful for me. I keep a finger ready to unlatch immediately but he just seems to get over it as the pain subsides...hang in there!!!!!!! Xxxx

So last night DH and I really wanted to watch a movie and I decided to try bedtime on the couch with low lights and volume so I could still get to watch a movie with him while dealing with F. In the past this has been the same, sleeps 30-45 min then wide awake. But last night I was able to nurse or jiggle him back to sleep and he stayed asleep even through transfer upstairs after we watched 1.5 movies! Woohoo! He slept 8:30-8am with several wake ups and 1 crazy one hour from 2-3 where he crawled all over the bed and kept trying to lie down and go to sleep but was restless. We are at the start of a heat wave so we were all sweaty. Lol.

Anyways, I'm hoping maybe I can get him 'used to' sleeping all evening and then get him in his room in the evening. Just waiting on that twin mattress!

Thanks for the encouragement, as always xoxo


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## seaweed eater

That's awesome, Gaia! :thumbup: I think you are right that once he has a drive to sleep at that time, things will be easier. What movies did you watch?


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## gaiagirl

We watched Jeff who lives at home, kinda a weird comedy with Jason segel. Then we watched the Tahiti iMax surfing one :) gotta love Netflix!

I think his nap being 3-4:30 helped because I could do bed at 8:30, which he seemed to accept!

But knowing him, tonight will be same old antics ;)


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## polaris

Hi everyone.

Thanks for the responses and suggestions for my bedtime dilemma. Seaweed, it's actually very unusual that OH would be here in the evenings for that long of a stretch, it was only because he had taken annual leave to go away. Usually he is gone for three to five evenings per week, although during the summer holidays it will only be one to three evenings as he does two evenings of teaching during school term. This week he will be gone Friday, Saturday, and Sunday evenings and next week is the same. During term time he is also gone Monday and Tuesday evenings. 

Steph, I really love the idea of doing a joint bedtime. This is my dream that I am working towards eventually. The problem I have at the moment is that their needs are so different at the moment that it's hard to make it work. Thomas is very sensitive to over-stimulation at bedtime and won't go to sleep if you are in the room with him (he was always like this) whereas Clara is the opposite and won't let you leave. Thomas needs a light on, Clara needs it pretty dark. Clara also gets very distracted by Thomas and just wants to stay awake and play. 

Thomas is actually very easy to put to bed, he goes off to sleep by himself and rarely gets out of bed once he's in bed even if he doesn't go straight to sleep. But he does need his own wind-down routine of bedtime stories and cuddles in bed. Thomas's bedtime varies a lot depending on whether he has napped. If he doesn't nap he needs to be in bed by 7 whereas if he does nap he will usually stay up until 8.30 or 9. I have tried shortening his naps but it's almost impossible to wake him before about 1.5 hours and even after he does wake he is cranky for an hour or more. It really seems to work so much better for him at the moment to have a nap and a later bedtime, he becomes very difficult to live with when he hasn't napped! Clara's bedtime has been 7 to 7.30 but I think I need to lengthen her wake-times now because it's taking her ages to settle all of a sudden. She seems tired and nurses almost to sleep but then wakes up and crawls around the bed for an hour, climbing on top of me and pulling my hair etc. before finally coming back for a final brief nursing session and off to sleep.

Having said all that, this evening actually worked really well. Thomas had a 1.5 hour nap so he was in great form. I let Clara nap longer than usual in the afternoon so she would be able to stay up a bit later (usually I would get her up by 4 p.m.). I put Thomas to bed a bit earlier than usual at 8 p.m. and then brought Clara into the other room to nurse her down as soon as he was in bed. She was asleep by 8.30 p.m. (4 hour wake-time) which is much quicker than she has settled recently. So again I'm thinking maybe it's time to extend her wake-time. Thomas was still awake when I was finished with Clara so I went in to him again and had another little cuddle and then he went off to sleep shortly after that. So at least I know that it can work!!


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## polaris

Stephie, sorry to hear about the biting. It does sound like it could be teething-related. Or possibly he does need a longer wake-time as you say. Clara is doing similar antics over the past few days instead of going to sleep (although not biting) and I think I am going to increase her wake-times to see if it helps. But she's also badly teething so who knows? Trying to work out the right wake-times is a bit of a guessing game with these babies isn't it??

Re biting: what I have done with both of mine when they have bitten is removed them from the breast straight away and put them down and counted to ten before picking them up or allowing them to nurse again. Could you maybe try that? I have been lucky so far though that neither of mine have been serious biters. Thomas bit me badly a couple of times but luckily it wasn't a regular occurrence and Clara hasn't properly bitten me yet although she has given a few little nips. It is definitely a phase though, the only times Thomas ever bit me was from about nine to ten months so far as I can recall.

Gaia - I can't believe you got to watch 1.5 movies! I think 0.5 of a movie is about my record of recent times. LOL. 

Seaweed, great news about STTN! Definitely the right decision to let him have a proper nap at home in the morning, by the sounds of it! I think transitions are tough for most babies and some struggle a little bit more than others. Thomas always really struggled with changes to his routine - much more so than Clara who is much more adaptable than he was. Munchkin will get through it though, it sounds to me like you are handling it just exactly right by letting him make the transition a bit more gradually.


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## NotNic

Thank you everyone for the well wishes. We got him children's antihistamine and that and sodium bicarbonate baths has made it much better. There was one blister that needed to dry out yesterday but I think we are over the worst of it. I decided against putting cream on except for the angry two on his knee, as my dr said that it spreads the infection, and we managed to avoid a full on dot to dot body, so she must be right. Im very grateful it was only a mild case. In long trousers he looks fine. He did look like Baloo in the jungle book, scratching himself against furniture though :haha:

In afraid I have no idea about biting as we stopped bfing before his teeth arrived, but Polaris' advice sounds right. On the odd occasion Finlay bites us he is put down and told firmly that it isn't nice. I'm also working on 'the look' with mixed results. He is so mischievous in comparison to the rest of the NCT group and its getting to the stage where I can feel the judgement! It doesn't help he is one of the bigger and more mobile babies.

Polaris have you thought about audio story books for Thomas? You can play it and either nurse with Clara in the room, or if Thomas prefers ten you can leave him to listen on his own. You can borrow the book from the library or get ones he already has so he can look at the pictures.


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## stephie_corin

SE - wow!!! You must feel good after your broken sleep recently. I do hope you managed to rest!!? Napping at home in the morning is clearly a good option until he gets used to his room. 

Gaia - glad you got to see some movies! I haven't seen either of those. I wonder what was going on at 2 am in his mind!? You're in Canada aren't you? Surely you don't get heat waves?!? What temperature is it?? Probably just over 5 degree centigrade I imagine :haha:

Polaris, maybe NotNic's suggestion of an audio book would work? I loved them at nighttime as a kid! Although it sounds like you nailed it last night! Awake times are so tricky... Things seem to change in a weekly basis!

Notnic, so glad Finlay is on the mend! I'll have to remember that about the cream if Culver gets chicken pox. I love the thought of you working on your look! Don't worry what anyone else thinks... I'd rather have a rambunctious, cheeky child who is excited about everything than any other kind!

Thanks everyone for the biting advice. I unlatched him when he bit and took a break before letting him nurse and it seems to have worked quite well. I switched sides too when he was fussy and it was great (SE is this what you mean by switch nursing?). I also extended his wake time before bed to 3.75 and he fell asleep a little easier. He seems to be really wired at the moment around bedtime. I might push him to 4 and see if that makes things better. I need to do a longer wind down but it's difficult when all he wants to do is crawl around. I end up letting him crawl all over the room in the hope it will tire him out but it seems to be having the opposite effect. 

Things seem to be calming down sleep wise. He's back to 1-2 hour stretches which is great. He's still pretty hard to settle for some wakeups but I feel like the really rough patch we had last week is passing by.


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## gaiagirl

Haha Stephie, I'm in the most temperate place (and most beautiful) in Canada. Lol. It's supposed to be 28 tomorrow!


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## gaiagirl

PS the prairies get up to the 30/40s in the summer too! We don't live in igloos ;)


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## polaris

Rotten bedtime this evening. My plan was to do the same as last night but it just didn't work out. Clara seemed to be totally exhausted so I had to bring her up first. She went to sleep really quickly and I couldn't believe how smoothly everything was going. However I obviously tried to sneak away too quickly because she was awake screaming five minutes later when she realized I was gone, I couldn't get up to her immediately because I was sorting Thomas out and in the few minutes that it took me to get up to her she cried so much that she vomited. Obviously had to clean her up and try to calm her down so I had to tell Thomas to go up to bed himself and I'd go in to him once I managed to get Clara settled. She actually went to sleep reasonably quickly after that - but it was 9 p.m. by the time I had them both down. I'm feeling really disheartened this evening, I feel like ten months in I shouldn't still be struggling to find an evening routine that works for the two of them. :nope: What makes it worse is that I get so stressed when I can't get Clara settled that I end up snapping at Thomas over stupid little things, which is so unfair on him and doesn't make for a pleasant evening for anybody.


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## AmyS

Polaris - Sorry for the bad night! I think You are doing amazing! I can't imagine that anyone would have a good routine down yet since sleep changes so much from day to day. I agree with the others that audio books might be a great idea for Thomas when you can't get to him right away.


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## stephie_corin

Oh Polaris, I'm so sorry! You are doing a great job. I know how hard it is to do bedtime by yourself and you are doing it x 2. You must be so exhausted. But don't beat yourself up over this. It was a one off and - while very very stressful - it's not an indication of you as a parent. These things happen! 

I hope you got a really good night sleep and feel better this morning. Thomas loves you, Clara loves you and one bad night doesn't change the fact that you are the best mum in the world to them.

Amy, how are things with you my friend?


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## Noelle610

Hey girls, hope everyone is doing well today! 

I'm trying to transition Charlie to one nap as she's showing signs that she's ready and it's really tough. It seems like two naps are too much but one isn't enough. At daycare, she often has just one nap and seems okay, but I think it's because there's more distraction/stimulation. At home, she's hit or miss depending on when she wakes up. If she gets up before 7, I try to do one nap because she takes long ones. If the first nap were to start after 9, it really throws the whole day off and there isn't room for a second. If she wakes after 7, I try for one nap around noon. 

Yesterday we did a nap at noon and I had to wake her at 2pm to bring her to her babysitter's (DH and I were going to the movies). She was so furious to be woken up, but I think a 2 hour nap is pretty good? Anyway, she had a great time with her sitter but was rubbing her eyes and acting really exhausted when we picked her up at 5pm. She was out by 6:30pm, but it's 6:15am here and she's woken several times since 5:30am screaming and then going back to sleep which is classic overtired. 

Any thoughts on helping the transition? The chart I always post recommends a very gradual shift, but it's just not realistic for me since I work five days a week. At daycare, all of the babies on one nap sleep at the same time - around 1pm. At home I try for an earlier single nap, but she is still struggling to stay up for that long. But I just feel like we NEED to transition. The other day I let C nap in the morning and she slept from 9:30am to 11:30am and of course wouldn't nap the rest of the day and was overtired at bedtime. Also, she doesn't do well with being woken from naps.


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## polaris

Thanks guys. Feeling a lot better this morning. After that horrible start Clara ended up sleeping really well last night - she didn't wake at all until after 12 which is almost a first! I do like the suggestion of audio books, I will look into that. 

Noelle, I really struggled with the 2:1 nap transition with Thomas (as I am still struggling with the final nap transition!). I don't know if there is really any way around it, it is just going to be a bit unsettled for a few weeks until she gets a little bit older and properly able to get through the day with just one nap. What worked best for us was giving Thomas a very short cat-nap in the morning and then a proper nap after lunch. However it was really horrible waking him from his a.m. nap as he would be so grumpy. When Thomas first transitioned to one nap, he would often take really long naps of 3+ hours. This phase didn't last too long though, probably 2 or 3 weeks. It actually sounds like you are half-way through the transition already in that she's often doing one nap days in daycare. But it might actually help to let her have the occasional two nap day when she's at home with you to catch her up on sleep. But the problem that I had with Thomas was that if I let him have a long nap in the morning, he wouldn't settle to sleep in the afternoon even though he was exhausted. Sorry, not too many answers there!! I do empathize though. Some babies just seem to breeze through these nap transitions whereas others just need a little bit more time to transition. You will get through it though and things will settle down. It's lovely once they are firmly established on one nap.


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## AmyS

Hi Noelle! I bet this is a difficult transition, much worse than 3 to 2. I like Polaris' suggestion from what she did with Thomas. I hate waking a sleeping baby though! 

Stephie - Glad you got some good nursing advice that seems to be helping! Is Cully attached to a lovey?? I have noticed when I've given one to Chloe during the past few days for her wakeups that she has calmed a lot quicker for me. Chloe isn't crawling yet, but I've noticed that she really wants to roll all over the place close to bed time. I let her loose in her room with the lights dim and few distractions. I don't know if it helps or not though! 

NotNic - Glad your little boy is getting better! That must have been really rough to go through!

SE - Hope this week goes better for Munchkin! Change is hard, but fortunately, kids seem to take it a lot better than we do. Do you not like his new classroom? I'm dreading the change for Chloe when she turns 1, since I really do like the teachers she has in her current room.

Gaia - So jealous of you living in beautiful Canada! Do you get humidity and mosquitos up there?? I love Iowa most of the time, but during the summer it's hard to do much outdoors unless you are sprayed with deet and prepared to sweat to death.

Polaris - So glad Clara ended up having a good night. One is hard for me by myself, so I can't imagine two at bedtime. I know you'll come up with a plan though. Maybe a loose routine that you can easily change depending on who needs to go to bed first.
___________

Our past 2 nights have been great - although I've had her back in that stinkin' Rock 'N play because she has a bad cold. Lots of snot and coughing. I try to keep her elevated in the crib, but it just doesn't work as well. And I haven't been letting her cry much, because that would just create more snot!

Saturday night, we started out bad. She had me up for 2 hours between 9:30 and 11:30 because when I would try to put her down, she'd start crying. Finally, I gave her the lovey - and she instantly stopped crying, and put herself to sleep within two minutes!!! It was amazing. She woke up 3 more times, I think, but she didn't cry, and she put herself back to sleep every time. 

Last night, I gave her the lovey right from the beginning, and she woke up once to eat at 1:30am, and then slept until 6am. I heard her wake up and move around a few times, but she never cried and never needed me. 

Also, on Saturday - it was getting close to nap time, but she was in a really good mood and not fussy at all. She was kind of rolling around on my lap, and she fell asleep by herself without any help from me! She has never done that before. She is definitely going through some changes!

Tonight, if she seems to be doing better after daycare, I'm sure we will be back in the crib.


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## missk1989

Wow everyone has come on so well since i last posted but i finally managed to do cc with both naps today and will be doing in at bedtime tonight. I am so impressed! I put him down this morning and checked on him after 3 mins and then 8 mins. It was getting a bit much for me so i got in the shower to drown out the screaming and heard him falling asleep as i got out 5 mins later. He slept for just over an hour but i couldnt stop crying feeling guilty for letting him cry himself to sleep. This afternoon i put him down and checked after 3 mins then 8 and set the timer for 10 mins but couldnt hear him after 8 so turned the monitor on and he was settling himself to sleep not crying to sleep! This makes me so much more confident and he has been napping for almost 2 hours!


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## stephie_corin

Noelle, good luck with the nap transition! I'm a mean mummy and tend to do things cold turkey. I've obviously not done 2-1 but I think I would just make the change and not look back. Maybe start at 12 and push it back every few days until the nap settles at 1? I always think it must be confusing for their bodies to have (for example) three naps one day and two the next. Of course I have zero experience so take my advice with a grain of salt! Also, like Polaris says, they all handle transitions differently: my approach has so far worked really well for my boy but maybe not others.

Polaris, I'm glad you are feeling better and Clara had a good night. Good luck tonight! Is OH around? What's your plan of action?

Amy, it's so interesting that she sleeps in the rock and play so well! What is it about the rock and play she likes do you think? Is it just familiarity? Being on an incline? Feeling snuggly? I can't remember if you tried propping the crib mattress up slightly and then you could gradually lower it. I'm think I made that suggestion before and you had a reason for not doing it, so I apologise if so! Does she sleep in a sleeping bag? That might help replicate the snuggly feeling? I hope she feels better soon! It really sounds like she is doing so well sleep wise and settling herself. What a clever girl! We did try with a lovey but I got lazy. I need to bring it back into our routine.

Gaia, I think Canada sounds amazing and I would trade my heat wave for your heat wave any day :) although I admit I did think you all wore snow suits with fluffy hoods and raybans and went snowboarding every day. How was your night?

Missk, I'm glad the sleep training is going well. I'm sorry you are finding it so tough. It sounds like your LO is adapting very quickly though.

As for us, if a tooth doesn't pop out tomorrow I am going to actually pass out from shock. Or maybe I will pass out from shock if there is a tooth. This is the most prolonged teething period in history, except for maybe SE and Munchkin's second tooth! I nursed him down and he fell asleep in my arms only to wake in hysterics 20 minutes later (still in my arms). I couldn't calm him down so just gave nurofen and he is nursing again. He hasn't had any pain relief in over a week so I felt ok about giving it to him.

We had hysteria before and after first nap too, and after waking from his second nap.

On the positive side, I increased his last awake time to 4 hours and didn't let him crawl around (we read books and played quietly in one place) and then sang some songs and he went to sleep much more easily than previously.

Fingers crossed for a tooth!


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## AmyS

Stephie - Come on tooth!!!! Is this the first one?? Can't remember!

I think the rock 'n play is just familiar to her, and it is more snuggly. I do have a sleep sack for her, but I am always debating whether she's too hot or not at night. I always like extra blankets on, so I assumed she did too, but I really can't tell! The crib wedge is going back in tonight too. Probably won't be a good night of sleep tonight, but that's okay! I got more than enough last night.


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## stephie_corin

We've got two bottom ones and the top two are promisingly swollen!

Do you have a room thermometer? I use a sleeping bag and dress slightly warmer than the guidelines. There are handy little tables that tell you what to dress them in when the room is within a certain range. I think the sleeping bags are fantastic. I'd try her out in it and see if she likes it - I never have to worry about blankets in his face or that he is too cold. I was clueless until I got my room thermometer (I'm still clueless but at least there is an objective measure for me to consider!).


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## AmyS

stephie_corin said:


> We've got two bottom ones and the top two are promisingly swollen!
> 
> Do you have a room thermometer? I use a sleeping bag and dress slightly warmer than the guidelines. There are handy little tables that tell you what to dress them in when the room is within a certain range. I think the sleeping bags are fantastic. I'd try her out in it and see if she likes it - I never have to worry about blankets in his face or that he is too cold. I was clueless until I got my room thermometer (I'm still clueless but at least there is an objective measure for me to consider!).

Our video monitor displays the room temp, and it is typically 71F, which is about 22C. I always put her in footy pajamas, and I have the thinner cotton Halo sleepsack. I hope that's not too much! We've been keeping our house much warmer now than we ever used to.


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## stephie_corin

The sleeping bags I have go by tog - our room is the same temp as yours (it fluctuates between 21.5 - 23.5 but mostly it's 22) - I put Culver in a 1 tog bag and he has a long sleeved onesie, no legs. I did have him in one with legs but I was worried he was too hot and the guides said for 22 degrees he should be in a short sleeved onesie (with the 1 tog bag). It might be worth a shot trying her in the bag (maybe with bare legs depending on the tog)? We might be clutching at straws but Dr Sears does list temperature in his checklist for night wakings - it might be worthwhile experimenting with more or less layers. Good luck!


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## seaweed eater

Polaris - I'm so sorry last night was so hard :hugs: please don't feel badly about it. I couldn't have said it any better than Amy and Stephie. You have a lot to cope with and you're doing great :hugs: I'm trying to think about all the different things you could change with their bedtimes. It sounds like the constraints are the way in which both of them go to sleep and the time at which Thomas goes to sleep (depending on whether you let him nap or not). And that your DH is away. What about the timing for Clara? Are you still waking her up in the mornings? I wonder if there's any way you could shift her to a later schedule so that T can go to bed before she does, especially with a longer WT for her (cc Stephie: I'm going to go back to 4-4.5 hour WT before bed for Munchkin too; 3.5 hasn't worked too well for us). It sounds like T does better with nap + later bedtime but it would be ideal for you to have him in bed first since his bedtime is simpler and more predictable. If you keep doing C first and T second, what about having someone over -- a mother's helper, a neighbor, a friend -- to watch T while you are putting C down, so that at least you don't have to worry about him during that time? Maybe that person couldn't put him to bed but it might at least help your nerves.
Anyway, I'm glad C ended up sleeping well for you last night :hugs:

NotNic - so glad things are getting better! Hope all is back to normal soon :thumbup:

Stephie - yikes! Hang in there my friend :hugs: I think we may be just about to see a top tooth too, so hopefully both of us will have some good tooth news tomorrow!!! Usually when I feel that way I just decide that I'm right and the tooth is definitely going to be out tomorrow, and then I forget about it, and invariably the tooth *isn't* out tomorrow but at least I got through it in the moment. Insane perhaps but it helps me cope. :haha: Yes, switching sides whenever fussy is what I meant by switch nursing. Glad it helped you! I've found it helps a lot with distractibility. I hope the tooth pops out ASAP and you are back to relatively good sleep!!!
BTW I think it's hilarious that you think of yourself as a mean mummy! You are so kind and nurturing...you just aren't afraid to do things that will clearly make your child happier in the not-even-very-long term!

Amy - what a great update!! Sounds like things are going so well! :thumbup: I'm glad the lovey helped so much. Is your DH feeling better about letting her keep it with her, then? Good luck going back to the crib...please keep us posted! It sounds like she is making a lot of progress so I'm sure things will transfer. Regarding temperature, I rarely know what to do too...but cotton footed pajamas and a light cotton sleepsack is exactly what we use for around 71F and that seems fine for us. DH and I like it much warmer so it feels very cold to us :) Is she sweaty when she wakes up? I believe the cotton sleepsacks are 0.5 tog (cc Stephie).

AFM - oh, Munchkin's up from his nap...will post about us later!


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## polaris

Hi everyone. 
Thank you so much for all the support. I'm feeling so much better today. We got out for a lovely picnic in the woods this morning and Thomas did some paddling in the stream and Clara tried to eat a few sticks and rocks and I think it just really energized all of us. Also OH will be around for bedtimes until Friday so I don't have that stress for another few days. Clara was really quite wired at bedtime tonight and it took her quite a while to settle. But that was OK because OH was here to see to Thomas. I stuck to my plan and nursed her and then lay down on the bed beside her and waited while she rolled around for ages and then finally settled herself to sleep! Yay!

Seaweed, I'm not waking Clara anymore in the mornings, she is awake at 6.30 on the dot most mornings, occasionally earlier but never really any later. However I do quite often wake her from her second nap if she's still asleep at 4 p.m. so if I let her sleep longer then she could have a later bedtime. I think maybe I just need to go with the flow for the moment and accept that things will settle down with time. Amy, as you suggest, a loose routine that I can alter depending on who needs to go to bed first. One problem with this is that Thomas is extremely routine-oriented and likes things done in exactly the same way and order every night. But maybe he will have to get a bit more flexible too. Unfortunately I don't really have anyone to watch Thomas on the evenings that OH is in work (none of my family live nearby and OH's family are a bit useless in that regard and definitely can't afford to pay anyone) but I'm definitely going to look into audio-books as I do think that could be a good option for keeping him entertained while I get Clara settled.

Amy - it really sounds like Chloe is doing so well. It is so nice when they start self-settling even if it is only occasionally, it sort of gives you a bit of hope that things are moving in the right direction, doesn't it?

Stephie - I really hope that tooth makes its appearance soon. Clara's intense teething pain seems to have died down again, but still no sign of any actual tooth. :shrug: By the way, I agree with Seaweed about your description of yourself as a mean mummy - you are definitely not a mean mummy at all, just putting your child's best interests first and doing what works for him, and I know you would be flexible and change your approach if it wasn't working for Cully too!

Missk - glad to hear that CC is going well for you so far. Good luck tonight and keep us posted!

Oh yes, on room temperatures - Clara's room is generally 20 to 21 degrees and I tend to dress her in a long-sleeved vest with a 2.5 tog sleeping bag. If the room temperature goes up to 22 degrees then I would switch to the 1 tog bag, still with just the long-sleeved vest underneath. I find that she tends to get too warm in the footed sleepsuits which is a shame because I have lots of really cute ones that she never gets to wear.


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## NotNic

Things are much better here. Past the infectious stage and escaped house arrest - yay!! I know we got off quite lightly with his dose, not too spotty, and he is back to his usual rambunctious self (I'm stealing that description :haha: ).

Polaris - sorry you had a bad night. We are all in awe of you on this thread, dealing with two very different children. It must be so hard to balance their routines. Most of us struggle with just one!

Amy - we're lovey / comforter fans. Finlay's has a few and has used them for a long times. I think it's why he's a good ss.

Stephie - hope the teeth show up soon. My pickle prefers to have two appear simultaneously. It sounds like two might be saying hello very soon.

Noelle - apart from nursery days, we usually have 1 nap a day. Originally we did a power nap mid- morning and a longer one after lunch, but now I find activity around 10/10.30am a good tactic in putting off sleep. A trip to the park or baby group works well if it starts before he wants to sleep, so he is distracted before the grizzly stage. On quiet days he wants to sleep 10.30/11am. On those days I try to encourage a 2hr nap and then a speedier bedtime routine so that he can go to bed sooner. We aren't very consistent though, but we aren't having so many painful days needing 1and a half naps!!!


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## seaweed eater

So, DH and I have decided to back off the sleep training a bit. There's just been a lot of crying this week and Munchkin really seems to be struggling, even when he's sleeping well, and it's not working for me. I don't know why this is happening now -- daycare (likely), teething, milestones -- but it kind of doesn't matter. It was working really well (virtually no crying at all) and clearly something has changed. I've been very consistent and things are getting worse, not better. And I don't think he's lost the skill to SS so it seems like something is bothering him.

I'm not exactly sure what this is going to look like, since SS is the only way he sleeps now. He won't let me rock him and I don't think he'd nurse to sleep anymore. So I guess the change will be that I just won't let him cry for very long. If he's getting frustrated, I'll pick him up and sit outside with him, or even nurse, and then try again. I'm not 100% convinced this is going to be a workable consistent solution but I guess we'll have to see.


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## seaweed eater

Question for those of you with babies who can walk -- 

Did you notice sleep disruption related to walking? If so, when was it relative to the walking-related milestones (before/during/after; standing/stepping/walking proficiently)?

Trying not to get too hung up on what's going on right now, but it's hard not to be curious :p


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## Noelle610

We've had really good sleep following learning to walk - I think it tires her out!


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## lch28

I am copying and pasting this from a thread I started as someone directed me here :flower:

(just for the record I am starting work next week from 5pm-12am) 



> I have no idea how I will manage this, I'm going to be exhausted at work and wont get to bed till 12:30 AM, only to wake up every 2 hours with my son and be up for the day at 7 am. He takes 3 naps a day, after 1.5-2 hours. They only last 45 minutes. Some days his last nap will be a 2 hours but this is rare. Napping during the day is out of the question, I have no choice but to study when hes napping, I'm already falling behind..
> 
> He takes all his naps in his bouncy. I try every day to get him to nap in his crib but he screams like heck. So I bounce him to sleep, in his swaddle, for every nap. At night he falls asleep usually in my arms after his bottle, I put him down in his crib at 745pm and he wakes up again at 10:30, 12:30, 2:30, 4:00, 5:30 and then he sleeps till 7 AM.. This all began at 4 months (i know, the regression) He used to sleep from 7pm-3am, eat and go back till 8am. I'm just not coping well By 2:30 am the past 4 nights hes ended up in his bouncy, being bounced to sleep because he is wide eyed and crying every time I lay him in the crib. My son is 18 pounds and I do not want him sleeping in his bouncy every night! Its a horrible habit Ive created, but when im so tired and i know its the only thing that will put him to sleep its so hard. Ive even considered that the bouncy is the reason hes waking up so much, but he hates his crib..

any advice/input much appreciated!


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## stephie_corin

Sorry guys, not much positivity from me today. I am so tired. No teeth and last night was horrible. DH is travelling this week and it's just a pretty hard time. We've both been cranky today and I yelled at him for pulling my hair for the millionth time. Sigh. I really wish we had some family around us.

Anyway, Polaris - your picnic sounds lovely! I've said this before but I am so jealous of all the lovely woods and greenery around you. Cully and I could both have done with a picnic today :) I'm glad your plan with Clara worked!

SE, good luck with your new approach. It's important to be flexible I think because this first year or two is such a period of rapid development. Make sure you keep us updated! I imagine walking - being such a huge development - would definitely disrupt sleep leading up to the actual walking itself.

NotNic - yay for a clean bill of health! Culver's bottom two came in very close together and the two front swellings are pretty similar in size, so I think you're right! 

Noelle, how is nap transition going?

Ich, I could have written your post. Unfortunately I don't have any quick fix solution because our sleep is still very disrupted. I can tell you that around 6.5 months we transitioned to two naps and naps have become longer and our day routine is generally very good. I stopped Culver from sleeping in the bouncy chair but it was hard. I went through a period of being unable to transfer him after he nursed to sleep and he would nap on me. Even now if he wakes after 45 minutes I let him take the rest of his nap on me. This doesn't sound like a workable solution for you if you need to study.

NotNic had some excellent suggestions for me, including stopping all motion completely and replacing it with things like a hand on their tummy. I hope she sees your post and comes up with some suggestions.

Is your OH around to help? Do you have any family to help? It doesn't sound like you are breastfeeding - can someone else take over night duty a few days per week?

In a few weeks when your LO is 6 months you will have more sleep training options available to you if you want to go down that path. Have you thought about whether you are comfortable with sleep training? If so, what methods have you considered? 

Welcome - I'm sure between us we will be able to help in some way x


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## lch28

So is 6-7 months around when they drop to 2 naps? I shudder to think.. jonathans a mess if up for more then 2 hrs :haha: 

In the beginning the bouncy was our best purchase! Now im starting to regret using it! Dont know how ill ever get him off of it.. i could take a few days off of study and school work but that may be detrimental :nope:


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## Noelle610

lch28 said:


> I am copying and pasting this from a thread I started as someone directed me here :flower:
> 
> (just for the record I am starting work next week from 5pm-12am)
> 
> 
> 
> I have no idea how I will manage this, I'm going to be exhausted at work and wont get to bed till 12:30 AM, only to wake up every 2 hours with my son and be up for the day at 7 am. He takes 3 naps a day, after 1.5-2 hours. They only last 45 minutes. Some days his last nap will be a 2 hours but this is rare. Napping during the day is out of the question, I have no choice but to study when hes napping, I'm already falling behind..
> 
> He takes all his naps in his bouncy. I try every day to get him to nap in his crib but he screams like heck. So I bounce him to sleep, in his swaddle, for every nap. At night he falls asleep usually in my arms after his bottle, I put him down in his crib at 745pm and he wakes up again at 10:30, 12:30, 2:30, 4:00, 5:30 and then he sleeps till 7 AM.. This all began at 4 months (i know, the regression) He used to sleep from 7pm-3am, eat and go back till 8am. I'm just not coping well By 2:30 am the past 4 nights hes ended up in his bouncy, being bounced to sleep because he is wide eyed and crying every time I lay him in the crib. My son is 18 pounds and I do not want him sleeping in his bouncy every night! Its a horrible habit Ive created, but when im so tired and i know its the only thing that will put him to sleep its so hard. Ive even considered that the bouncy is the reason hes waking up so much, but he hates his crib..
> 
> any advice/input much appreciated!Click to expand...

Oh dear, I'm so sorry you're going through this! 

I think the things that used to help you are starting to hurt you - the bouncy and the swaddle. I'd drop both. He's a bit young for any kind of strict sleep training, but you could soothe him other ways until he falls asleep without these crutches.

What's a typical day like for you? Wake-up, naps and bedtime? What's your bedtime routine like? How does he fall asleep? Sounds like he's severely overtired (mine was too). Hope I can help!


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## Noelle610

Thanks for asking Stephie! It's not really going right now :haha: I've had Charlie home with me since last Thursday (her daycare provider is on vacation) and she's been happily taking two naps along with her buddy that I'm watching. I think she's really worn out from all of the playing. I'm thinking we'll try again soon.


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## freddie

Hi ladies! Haven't managed to read through all of the posts that I've missed but will do... Just wanted to check in and update as haven't had a lot of time to get on here the last week or so...

So night times are the same really but I am finding some sanity restored by cosleeping with LO more and more of the night and actually bf'ing more at night as it's such an easy way to resettle (oops had totally started on decreasing night feeds :blush:)

Day times are going pretty smoothly though as I have found that if I put him to sleep in his pram he will pretty consistently sleep an hour and a half for both naps! And if he starts to stir I just rock the pram from behind where he can't see me and he falls right back to sleep! I also put on the tv/ music for background noise while he sleeps as I think he likes it to be a bit noisier for his sleep in the day so he knows he's still downstairs with me iykwim lol?! 

It's making things so much less stressful dring the day so that is a big positive :) 

I was trying the 3, 3.5, 3.5 hour wake times but have learnt that he just can't quite manage that much wake time really - don't know whether that's due to his broken night sleep or just the way he is, but I'm tending to do a 2.5, 3-3.5, 3 and it's working well for him as he's really easy to put down for naps and pretty easy to put down to bed.

Just want his night time sleep to follow!! 

Oh and he has teeth 7 and 8 coming through OMG lol!


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## AmyS

SE - I love your new approach - and I love that you are so flexible depending on what he needs! I really hope that I can remember to be more laid back like you when I see that Chloe is changing and I need to change with her. 

Ich28 - Not quite the same thing, but my LO has a strong sleep association with her Rock 'N Play, which I've been trying to break. I think she's more ready for her crib now than she was just a few weeks ago (she's nearly 8 months old). So, my suggestion to you is just to keep trying the crib. Starting at about 6 months old, I would try putting Chloe in her crib at the start of every night. She would wake up and cry, and I'd put her back to sleep and try again. Three times was about my limit before I'd put her back in the rock 'n play so we could both get a little sleep. Now, she is much more receptive to the crib, and I had her in it all night last Thursday. (Then she got sick, so I put her back in the RNP to keep her elevated.) Since your mom will be putting him down for you, she could start him out in the crib every night and see how it goes! 

As far as the waking up often, we went through that too with the regression. It does get better, eventually! Just hang in there and nap when you can!

Stephie - So sorry! Tired, cranky, and no teeth to show for it? Tomorrow has to be a better day! I know about the hair pulling! I had been keeping mine pulled back, and then I cut it last week so it's easier to pull. Ouch. Now when I carry her around, I try to make sure she has a small toy in her hands so she doesn't hang on to my hair. 

Rachel - Great naps! I wish Chloe would fall asleep in her stroller, but I've never gotten that to happen! 
__________

Chloe didn't make it to her crib last night. I didn't have enough hands to get the crib wedge in after we got home, because she wouldn't let me put her down and hubby was working late. She had an awful day at daycare - she took three 15 minute naps all day, and was extremely cranky. We can definitely see a white spot on her buttom gum though, so maybe a tooth might show up soon. Maybe.

I ended up getting her to bed by 5:45. She woke up once at 8:30, so I fed her again since she hadn't ate much for the day, and then she slept until 5am. So, another good night for Chloe, and I'm finding myself with a little bit of insomnia.

Tonight will definitely be a crib night though, since her snotty nose was cleared up this morning! I just don't know what to do about having her sleep with the lovey though. I will probably try to remove it after she's asleep. I know hubby won't like it if she's rolling over on top of it and gets it smooshed up by her face.


----------



## lch28

Noelle610 said:


> lch28 said:
> 
> 
> I am copying and pasting this from a thread I started as someone directed me here :flower:
> 
> (just for the record I am starting work next week from 5pm-12am)
> 
> 
> 
> I have no idea how I will manage this, I'm going to be exhausted at work and wont get to bed till 12:30 AM, only to wake up every 2 hours with my son and be up for the day at 7 am. He takes 3 naps a day, after 1.5-2 hours. They only last 45 minutes. Some days his last nap will be a 2 hours but this is rare. Napping during the day is out of the question, I have no choice but to study when hes napping, I'm already falling behind..
> 
> He takes all his naps in his bouncy. I try every day to get him to nap in his crib but he screams like heck. So I bounce him to sleep, in his swaddle, for every nap. At night he falls asleep usually in my arms after his bottle, I put him down in his crib at 745pm and he wakes up again at 10:30, 12:30, 2:30, 4:00, 5:30 and then he sleeps till 7 AM.. This all began at 4 months (i know, the regression) He used to sleep from 7pm-3am, eat and go back till 8am. I'm just not coping well By 2:30 am the past 4 nights hes ended up in his bouncy, being bounced to sleep because he is wide eyed and crying every time I lay him in the crib. My son is 18 pounds and I do not want him sleeping in his bouncy every night! Its a horrible habit Ive created, but when im so tired and i know its the only thing that will put him to sleep its so hard. Ive even considered that the bouncy is the reason hes waking up so much, but he hates his crib..
> 
> any advice/input much appreciated!Click to expand...
> 
> Oh dear, I'm so sorry you're going through this!
> 
> I think the things that used to help you are starting to hurt you - the bouncy and the swaddle. I'd drop both. He's a bit young for any kind of strict sleep training, but you could soothe him other ways until he falls asleep without these crutches.
> 
> What's a typical day like for you? Wake-up, naps and bedtime? What's your bedtime routine like? How does he fall asleep? Sounds like he's severely overtired (mine was too). Hope I can help!Click to expand...

That is exactly what i think, I think that the bouncy is causing him to only want to be bounced and the swaddle is bothering him because he wants to move about. He still startles himself a lot, today he took a 40 min nap in his sleep sack! He was in the bouncy though, dammit.. Im wondering if i should drop swaddling, then the bouncy? or both at once? 

We wake up at 6 or 7 am and his first nap is 90 minutes after waking, lasting 45 minutes. For his next naps he usually goes 1 hour and 45 minutes before needing to be put down. He wakes up from his last nap of the day around 5 or 530. At 645 I give him a bath, dress him, give him his 8 oz bottle which he polishes right off, lay him in his crib and he goes right to sleep, for 3 to 4.5 hours. Wish he was like this all night! After his first wake up hes always wide eyed and smiling, playing, not wanting to sleep etc. Which is why i resort to the bouncy :dohh: 

He used to take 2 hour naps, so now he has a lot more naps as hes napping for short periods of times. Id say 4 naps..

A nap schedule would look like this
830 am : Nap
9:15 am: Wake
11 am : Nap
11:45 am : Wake
1:30 pm : Nap
2:15 pm : Wake
4pm : Nap, sometimes till 5:30.

Hes asleep by 730/745, and then the hell begins :wacko:


----------



## Noelle610

lch28 said:



> Noelle610 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> lch28 said:
> 
> 
> I am copying and pasting this from a thread I started as someone directed me here :flower:
> 
> (just for the record I am starting work next week from 5pm-12am)
> 
> 
> 
> I have no idea how I will manage this, I'm going to be exhausted at work and wont get to bed till 12:30 AM, only to wake up every 2 hours with my son and be up for the day at 7 am. He takes 3 naps a day, after 1.5-2 hours. They only last 45 minutes. Some days his last nap will be a 2 hours but this is rare. Napping during the day is out of the question, I have no choice but to study when hes napping, I'm already falling behind..
> 
> He takes all his naps in his bouncy. I try every day to get him to nap in his crib but he screams like heck. So I bounce him to sleep, in his swaddle, for every nap. At night he falls asleep usually in my arms after his bottle, I put him down in his crib at 745pm and he wakes up again at 10:30, 12:30, 2:30, 4:00, 5:30 and then he sleeps till 7 AM.. This all began at 4 months (i know, the regression) He used to sleep from 7pm-3am, eat and go back till 8am. I'm just not coping well By 2:30 am the past 4 nights hes ended up in his bouncy, being bounced to sleep because he is wide eyed and crying every time I lay him in the crib. My son is 18 pounds and I do not want him sleeping in his bouncy every night! Its a horrible habit Ive created, but when im so tired and i know its the only thing that will put him to sleep its so hard. Ive even considered that the bouncy is the reason hes waking up so much, but he hates his crib..
> 
> any advice/input much appreciated!Click to expand...
> 
> Oh dear, I'm so sorry you're going through this!
> 
> I think the things that used to help you are starting to hurt you - the bouncy and the swaddle. I'd drop both. He's a bit young for any kind of strict sleep training, but you could soothe him other ways until he falls asleep without these crutches.
> 
> What's a typical day like for you? Wake-up, naps and bedtime? What's your bedtime routine like? How does he fall asleep? Sounds like he's severely overtired (mine was too). Hope I can help!Click to expand...
> 
> That is exactly what i think, I think that the bouncy is causing him to only want to be bounced and the swaddle is bothering him because he wants to move about. He still startles himself a lot, today he took a 40 min nap in his sleep sack! He was in the bouncy though, dammit.. Im wondering if i should drop swaddling, then the bouncy? or both at once?
> 
> We wake up at 6 or 7 am and his first nap is 90 minutes after waking, lasting 45 minutes. For his next naps he usually goes 1 hour and 45 minutes before needing to be put down. He wakes up from his last nap of the day around 5 or 530. At 645 I give him a bath, dress him, give him his 8 oz bottle which he polishes right off, lay him in his crib and he goes right to sleep, for 3 to 4.5 hours. Wish he was like this all night! After his first wake up hes always wide eyed and smiling, playing, not wanting to sleep etc. Which is why i resort to the bouncy :dohh:
> 
> He used to take 2 hour naps, so now he has a lot more naps as hes napping for short periods of times. Id say 4 naps..
> 
> A nap schedule would look like this
> 830 am : Nap
> 9:15 am: Wake
> 11 am : Nap
> 11:45 am : Wake
> 1:30 pm : Nap
> 2:15 pm : Wake
> 4pm : Nap, sometimes till 5:30.
> 
> Hes asleep by 730/745, and then the hell begins :wacko:Click to expand...

You could do that! Swaddle first, bouncer second. Personally, I'm a fan of cold turkey though ;) A few tough days/nights, but you get it all out of the way - like ripping off the band-aid. This is the age when they want to self-soothe, but don't quite know how to yet. Allowing your LO some space and the freedom to move about will help him learn. It may be difficult at first since he's not used to it, but he will get there. Many babies sleep best when they figure out how to roll onto their tummies.

It looks like you're doing 4 naps still. I'd try to push his awake time and aim for 3 good naps (by which I mean 45 minutes or more). Something like this:

7am wake
8:45am-9:45am nap 1
11:45am-1pm nap 2
3pm-4pm nap 3
6:30pm bedtime

You may end up with an earliesh bedtime, but that's okay - most babies, biologically speaking, do best with a bedtime between 6pm and 8pm. 

At night, where is he sleeping? How do you respond to the night wakings?


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## stephie_corin

Noelle, enjoy the time at home with her! I love that she is snoozing away happily :) please keep us updated on the transition!

Rachel! I'm so happy for you!! What great news! I'm sure thing will continue to improve for you.

Amy, it astounds me how well she sleeps in her rock n play. It's like there are two different Chloes. Amazing! Sorry you didn't get more rest! I like the idea of giving him a toy to carry. His hair pulling urge is strongest when he's going to sleep ... It must be a soothing thing because if I don't let him pull my hair over and over again (he runs his fingers through the hair growing at the top of my neck), he starts pulling his own! What is Cloe's lovie again? I guess you could bring it to her when she wakes to help her settle if you don't want it in the crib. Maybe you could change it for something you feel more comfortable with?

Ich, I was nervous about 2 naps also but it's really been so great. I did the math and I think your LO is only having 8.5 hours awake time. It might be time to push his awake time longer and let it settle closer to 9 hours. I'm sure the others will have some good suggestions.

Culver will not sleep tonight. He's woken every 30 minutes since bed time at 630pm. He doesn't seem in pain, just awake?!? Is babbling a milestone?? He started proper babbling yesterday - and he learnt to drink from a straw - but nothing else new I can think of.


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## lch28

AmyS Jonathan loved his rock and play! He slept in it until he was 3 months old. He's a big boy and he wasn't comfortable in it anymore. 

stephie_corin I have wondered if hes under tired also. But if hes up for more then 2 hours he goes into a fit of rage and ends up crying himself to sleep in my arms :nope:


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## AmyS

Stephie - It sounds like your hair is Cully's lovey! I bought the Angel Dear lovies "a pair and a spare". It's the ducky one. I do think babbling is a milestone! Chloe will start babbling in the motn if she's more awake, but she does it in a whisper because I never really talk during the night. 

And we have a tooth!!!!!!! I am beyond excited right now!!!!! My irrational fears had me believing that I was going to have the only toothless baby!!!!


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## polaris

Amy - yay for the tooth! That is really exciting - at last!! 

Seaweed, sorry to hear that things are a bit bumpy at the moment. I think you are right to step back from sleep training for the moment and just do what feels right. At least Munchkin is able to self-settle now and hopefully he should go back to sleeping well once he is feeling a bit more settled. :hugs:

Stephie - for sure babbling counts as a milestone! It is such a huge thing for them starting to imitate sounds and properly babble. Clara does the exact same thing with pulling my hair at night-time and then when I stop her from doing that she pulls her own hair. It definitely must be a soothing thing. I have got quite irritated with Clara about the hair-pulling so you have my sympathies. That's amazing that Cully can drink through a straw - Thomas totally couldn't do that until he was maybe 18 months so I haven't thought to try with Clara. Must give it a go!!

Rachel - I am the same, I am fully cosleeping now and have given up totally on cutting back on night feeds and am just feeding her whenever she wakes, so much quicker and easier and on a good night (no teething pain/extended wakings) it almost feels like a proper night's sleep. I have decided that I am not going to do anything about night feeds until she is a year old so I will reassess in a couple of months!

Noelle - that's so interesting that she's happily taking two naps while at home with you. Do you think daycare are trying to push the transition a bit?

Ich - the others have already given you good advice. I think your LO's age is such a tough time for sleep. Hang on in there, it does get easier.


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## lch28

> You could do that! Swaddle first, bouncer second. Personally, I'm a fan of cold turkey though A few tough days/nights, but you get it all out of the way - like ripping off the band-aid. This is the age when they want to self-soothe, but don't quite know how to yet. Allowing your LO some space and the freedom to move about will help him learn. It may be difficult at first since he's not used to it, but he will get there. Many babies sleep best when they figure out how to roll onto their tummies.
> 
> It looks like you're doing 4 naps still. I'd try to push his awake time and aim for 3 good naps (by which I mean 45 minutes or more). Something like this:
> 
> 7am wake
> 8:45am-9:45am nap 1
> 11:45am-1pm nap 2
> 3pm-4pm nap 3
> 6:30pm bedtime
> 
> You may end up with an earliesh bedtime, but that's okay - most babies, biologically speaking, do best with a bedtime between 6pm and 8pm.
> 
> At night, where is he sleeping? How do you respond to the night wakings?

So If i extend his wake time/drop a nap will he lengthen them on his own? He sleeps between 30-45 minutes lately. I'm just worried of him getting even more tired :dohh: At night he starts out in his crib. Usually he ends up in the bouncy. Last night went pretty well, he stayed in the crib till five am.. (woke up for a bottle twice but went right back down in the crib)

When he wakes up I try to soothe him in other ways, I only feed him if he seems genuinely hungry. Sometimes I can put my hand on his tummy and hell fall back asleep, I rub in between his eyes, pat, etc.. I also wait 5 mins after he wakes to see if hell fall back asleep or if hes really awake.

He sleeps in a woombie. Ive seen him roll in it and he can still move his hands up and lift up his head all the way. The thing is, he doesn't roll over in his sleep when hes in the woombie. But when hes in his sleep sack, he always rolls over and starts to scream because I think it scares him. I guess having his arms free makes him roll over..

for example.. tonight Jonathan had a bath at 6:30pm, a bottle and fell asleep around 7:15. He was in his sleep sack. I laid him in his crib and went to eat dinner. 5 minutes later he screamed on the monitor and I went in and he was on his belly. I put him on his back and tried to settle him, for nearly 1.5 hours. He just kept falling asleep and then rolling over and screaming. It was awful and I was in tears =[ Its 9:10 and he just fell asleep.. because I gave up :cry: After trying to get him to sleep for so long I could just see he was exhausted and I put him in his woombie and his eyes glazed over and he fell asleep right then. Hes sound asleep in his crib

I feel like an awful mommy. Ive created such a bad habit.. and I have no idea how to help him sleep now. Hes growing out of his woombie, hes much too big in my opinion to be so restricted and I am not buying another one! 

I feel bad for letting him get so upset tonight. I just dunno what to do :wacko: I'm worried about him rolling, thank god for my snuza monitor.. =\


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## kettle28

Hello! Haven't checked in on your thread for ages hope you're all doing well :) x

Lo is 6months next week and just getting over a little cold, teething cheeks but no teeth anywhere near yet! 

Anyhoo, his sleep! 

If I put him down at 50-60m since wake up he plays for 5m, starts to quiet then within 10m falls asleep with minimum fuss. He then does his usual 40-60m sleep. 

If I leave him past the hour then he gets overtired real quick and it's a one hour nightmare to get him down and then for 30/40mins!

Bedtime is non existent, he's so overtired by this point that its been a car or pram ride to get him started - every night :( 

So, what I'm asking is: although his wake time should be 1.45-2.30 (or something like it!) e goes off to sleep with little or no fuss and does a good 40-60m each time if we do 1-1hr 10wake time. 

I should stick with the hour? Until he naps longer or bedtime improves, or he catches up on his sleep!


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## lch28

Hi hun, id assume hes a bit overtired possibly.. could you gradually increase his wake time, by maybe 5 minutes a day or something?


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## Noelle610

lch28 said:


> You could do that! Swaddle first, bouncer second. Personally, I'm a fan of cold turkey though A few tough days/nights, but you get it all out of the way - like ripping off the band-aid. This is the age when they want to self-soothe, but don't quite know how to yet. Allowing your LO some space and the freedom to move about will help him learn. It may be difficult at first since he's not used to it, but he will get there. Many babies sleep best when they figure out how to roll onto their tummies.
> 
> It looks like you're doing 4 naps still. I'd try to push his awake time and aim for 3 good naps (by which I mean 45 minutes or more). Something like this:
> 
> 7am wake
> 8:45am-9:45am nap 1
> 11:45am-1pm nap 2
> 3pm-4pm nap 3
> 6:30pm bedtime
> 
> You may end up with an earliesh bedtime, but that's okay - most babies, biologically speaking, do best with a bedtime between 6pm and 8pm.
> 
> At night, where is he sleeping? How do you respond to the night wakings?
> 
> So If i extend his wake time/drop a nap will he lengthen them on his own? He sleeps between 30-45 minutes lately. I'm just worried of him getting even more tired :dohh: At night he starts out in his crib. Usually he ends up in the bouncy. Last night went pretty well, he stayed in the crib till five am.. (woke up for a bottle twice but went right back down in the crib)
> 
> When he wakes up I try to soothe him in other ways, I only feed him if he seems genuinely hungry. Sometimes I can put my hand on his tummy and hell fall back asleep, I rub in between his eyes, pat, etc.. I also wait 5 mins after he wakes to see if hell fall back asleep or if hes really awake.
> 
> He sleeps in a woombie. Ive seen him roll in it and he can still move his hands up and lift up his head all the way. The thing is, he doesn't roll over in his sleep when hes in the woombie. But when hes in his sleep sack, he always rolls over and starts to scream because I think it scares him. I guess having his arms free makes him roll over..
> 
> for example.. tonight Jonathan had a bath at 6:30pm, a bottle and fell asleep around 7:15. He was in his sleep sack. I laid him in his crib and went to eat dinner. 5 minutes later he screamed on the monitor and I went in and he was on his belly. I put him on his back and tried to settle him, for nearly 1.5 hours. He just kept falling asleep and then rolling over and screaming. It was awful and I was in tears =[ Its 9:10 and he just fell asleep.. because I gave up :cry: After trying to get him to sleep for so long I could just see he was exhausted and I put him in his woombie and his eyes glazed over and he fell asleep right then. Hes sound asleep in his crib
> 
> I feel like an awful mommy. Ive created such a bad habit.. and I have no idea how to help him sleep now. Hes growing out of his woombie, hes much too big in my opinion to be so restricted and I am not buying another one!
> 
> I feel bad for letting him get so upset tonight. I just dunno what to do :wacko: I'm worried about him rolling, thank god for my snuza monitor.. =\Click to expand...

Yes, naps should lengthen. It will take some time though, usually a week so you have to stick with it. It's hard to distract a grumpy baby, but going outside works very well. Sunlight supresses the bodies natural production of melatonin, which makes us sleepy. There are two schools of thought, one would say tweak all naps and night time and the other would say get your nights in order first and then work on the daytime. You can really choose either option, as long as you are consistent.

I'd get rid of the wombie. Yes, he's going to be upset on his tummy until he gets used to moving around. We went through that too and it sucks, but it does pass. How close to 6 months is your LO? Quite honestly, it might be best to remove all crutches - wombie, bouncy, whatever - and sleep train if he's the approrpiate age. Like I said before, rip off the band aid! 

You are NOT a bad mom. Seriously. The things that soothe our babies as infants - swaddling, rocking, feeding, etc. just start not to work as well at some point. It's natural; it's one of the first ways babies assert their independence. It's hard because it's uncomfortable for them as well; they don't totally know how to fall asleep on their own and need it can be frustrating. I was in the same boat that you were. There's no right answer; you can sleep train or wait it out. Just depends on what works best for you!


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## lch28

He will be 6 months old on July 21 (unless I am supposed to go by weeks, he'll be 24 weeks old next Monday..

I guess I'll have to look into sleep training. I don't know much about it and I'm afraid I won't be very good at that. I think he'll get himself into such a state.. He really doesn't do well left on his own. Like the car seat, my god. He absolutely hates it. Doesn't sleep and literally screams bloody murder the minute I close the door and get in the car. Has been like that since he was about 3 months old.. I can really only go somewhere if its no more then 10 minutes away. The other day there was an accident on the way to the grocery store which is 3 mins away and we were stuck in the car for 35 minutes. He cried so hard the whole time :cry: 

I think he needs a smoother transition, I just can't figure out how to do it. I thought I was doing really well and now I just feel like I am totally lost!

Someone suggested a zipadeezip to me.. but just not sure. I don't have the funds really and it'll take 2 weeks to get here and who knows if it'll make a difference.. Anyone ever used one? I don't want to create a whole new habit also!


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## AmyS

Noelle - Do you think she's ready for 1 nap? I know you said before that your daycare provider wants them all on the same schedule, but if she does better on 2, then I'd tell her not to rush it. I guess it's probably not easy for daycare to put her down though with all of the stimulation from the other kids though....such a dilemma! Oh, I see Polaris says the same above.

kettle - I do not know much at all! But, if he's going to be 6 months soon, I'd probably try to increase his wake times to the recommended 2-2.5 hours. It might help lengthen his naps and get you on a better schedule. How much wake time does he have in a day? Could he possible be undertired? When I was stretching out my daughter's wake times, I did it slowly, and tried for an extra 15-30 minutes every day. It does work! He might get crabby at 40-60 min, but that's probably because he's used to sleeping at those times, not because he really needs to. But, as I said, the others know way more than I do!

Ich28 - I know what you mean about creating another sleep association to break if you try to transition slowly. I have no experience with the zipadeezip, but you'd probably end up with less overall stress if you just went cold turkey. I did google "transitioning out of woombie" and read that one person slowly unzipped it a little at a time so that baby had more arm movement, and then they transitioned baby into a sleep sack.

Stephie - Hope you are having a better night! 
___________________

Last night was ok - we started in the RNP again, because I needed to cut her nails, and hubby was working late again. At midnight, she woke for a bottle, so I fed her but she didn't fall asleep. She was moving all over on me trying to get comfortable, so I gave her a kiss and put her in the crib with her lovey. And....drumroll, please...she actually fell asleep. It took awhile, and she fussed a few times for a few seconds, but she rolled all over that crib, dozed off, then woke up and rolled around some more, dozed off again, etc. Finally, she fell asleep soundly for a few hours. After her 4am early morning wakeup, I put her back in the RNP awake, and she put herself back to sleep in that too. So she really can't deny that she knows how to self soothe!


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## Noelle610

AmyS said:


> Noelle - Do you think she's ready for 1 nap? I know you said before that your daycare provider wants them all on the same schedule, but if she does better on 2, then I'd tell her not to rush it. I guess it's probably not easy for daycare to put her down though with all of the stimulation from the other kids though....such a dilemma! Oh, I see Polaris says the same above.

Ugh she might not be.... I just can't figure it out. I feel like she'd happily take 2 until she's a teenager.


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## AmyS

Noelle610 said:


> AmyS said:
> 
> 
> Noelle - Do you think she's ready for 1 nap? I know you said before that your daycare provider wants them all on the same schedule, but if she does better on 2, then I'd tell her not to rush it. I guess it's probably not easy for daycare to put her down though with all of the stimulation from the other kids though....such a dilemma! Oh, I see Polaris says the same above.
> 
> Ugh she might not be.... I just can't figure it out. I feel like she'd happily take 2 until she's a teenager.Click to expand...

:haha: She sounds like me! In fact, 2 naps a day sounds nice at this age too!

I hope you get it figured out soon!


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## stephie_corin

Amy! Congrats to you and Chloe on the tooth! Don't forget to write it in your baby book!

Polaris, I am so glad to hear you say that Clara does the hair thing too!! I thought my baby was a bit strange, but it turns out he's not so strange... Unless he and Clara are both a bit eccentric :)

Ich, our babies are so similar. Cully hates the car seat too. I found even very gentle sleep training wasn't a good fit for us personally (I hate hearing him cry) so we are waiting things out.

SE, Gaia - how are things?

Kettle, to be honest I suspect your LO is getting too much sleep in the day with naps every hour. Sleep can be habit forming and I really would work on extending his awake times. 1 hour seems very very short for his age. He may take short naps but three short naps and better night sleep is a good trade off, right? Good luck!

We had an ok night. Something is definitely going on in that little head of his. He's been such a daredevil ... He split his lip open today after slipping over, climbed stairs for the first time, is holding on to things standing up and letting go for a few seconds. I feel like he is testing all kinds of physical boundaries at the moment.

OMG... Mouth injuries bleed so much. My hands were shaking after I finished soothing him and cleaning him up.

I hope everyone has a good night. Happy 4th of July to our American friends xxx


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## stephie_corin

Amy, we cross posted - that is amazing!!! Go Chloe! You must be so proud of her!!

Noelle, is there any reason developmentally why they should move to one nap? Good luck!!! By the way, is she doing two long naps or is the morning one just a catnap?


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## AmyS

Stephie - How amazing that he is doing so much!! No wonder he's not sleeping well, he is really going at it! Might as well do it all at once, right? Glad your night was ok and not terrible. "Ok" is doable for the time being.

Mouth injuries do bleed a lot, but thankfully, they also heal pretty fast! I hope he's not too sore from it today!

I did write that in her baby book! As well as her first haircut! I had to trim the 5 pieces of hair that was hanging between her eyes.


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## seaweed eater

We have a tooth here too!!!!! It's the bottom one. I could have sworn the top one would be in first.

I'm sorry to have fallen behind. I promise I'll catch up soon. Just feeling sad about daycare still.


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## gaiagirl

Stephie! A split lip is so scary! They bounce back so fast but hugs xxxx that sounds intense. He is all over the place hey!? Maybe it'll tire him out more :)

AFM - actually we have had two successful evenings with him in his room. He has slept about 7ish-7ish (with 3/4 wakeups) coming to bed whenever I go. It's been pretty smooth for a couple days so can't complain! But I'm sure it'll change again in a few days, lol. 

The good thing is I can stop worrying about holding him creating a habit since I was holding him like a week straight and he is fine to be in his room, so yay!


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## Noelle610

You know, I have no idea Stephie! I just keep reading that they should transition between 15-18 months and I guess I'm just kind of freaking out that we're not there yet since she was an early 3-2 transitioner. She's still doing 2 long naps! This morning it was 90 minutes and 105 minutes in the afternoon.


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## Aimee4311

Hey y'all! Just wanted to give an update on us! I've decided Josalyn's sleep isn't bad at all. 2 nights ago she woke up about 3-4 times crying, but was easy to soothe so I thought nothing of it. The next day, she had cut her 3rd tooth! The badish sleep was the only sign she gave, so I feel very lucky to have such a relaxed teether!

We're back to feeding to sleep. It's so quick and easy to get her down now that we're on 2 naps a day, I'm just going to wait on cutting out nursing to sleep. She's been giving me several longish stretches at night without needing to nurse, so she's spacing that out on her own, which is great! I feel rested when I wake up! 

Developmentally she's got a lot going on! In the past month she's learned to crawl, learned to make sounds using her mouth + her hand-like wa wa wa wa (idk I that makes sense...). She's learning to wave at people and has started putting her hands together like she wants to clap. Also, yesterday she pulled herself up using the couch! 

Thankfully it's not affecting her sleep! I'm still silently stalking this thread because I know babies like to keep changing things up just when you get comfortable! I'm cheering you all on! :hugs:


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## stephie_corin

Amy, first haircut!!! awww! our babies are growing up so fast!

SE sending you huge, big virtual hugs!! I'm so sorry you are feeling sad about daycare. Munchkin will get there - babies are so adaptable and change is an inevitable part of life; it can be daunting but change leads to new and wonderful things. Thinking of you and Munchkin. And congratulations on tooth 2! Cully and Munchkin are neck and neck in the tooth race - I wonder who will get their front teeth first?

Gaia, I'm hoping he will tire out! It's not happening yet but fingers crossed! I'm so happy you're having such good nights! It's astounding how quickly these babies change!! Three cheers for F :) 

Noelle, keep us posted on her progress! I think if she is happy and sleeping well at night it's no problem. I'm sure you've read one of the signs of being ready for one nap is they start fighting one of their other naps: it stands to reason that if she's happily taking both maybe she's not ready? 

Aimee, so lovely to read your update!


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## gaiagirl

Curse struck, battled bedtime again last night. Tooth 8 poking through a little now though...

The saga continues.


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## rmsh1

I thought I should pop in here and report on Emma's STTN progress. We had been patting/shhhing her at the times she woke and did not need a feed, and it was going OK. I had gotten her down to just two feeds a night, and we settled her by just patting and shhing her the other times she woke. Sometimes it would require several patting and shhing sessions.

The last three nights Emma has technically STTN. The first night was for 5 hours, then 7 hours and last night 8 :shock: BUT all three nights, she has gotten her mitt off one hand and sucked her thumb :( It seems the thumb sucking is settling her. We do not want to encourage thumb sucking, and she wont take a pacifier. I am enjoying the extra sleep, but want to nip the thumb sucking in the butt. I can't win can I?


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## Noelle610

8 gaia?! That's a lot for that age! Poor bub.


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## polaris

Hi everyone!

I feel like I've fallen a bit behind on everybody's updates, so sorry to those who I miss out.

Noelle - to me it doesn't sound like she is ready to drop a nap. She is pretty young, I would just try to keep her on two naps for the moment personally. I tried to drop Thomas to one nap at about 13 months and it didn't work out at all and he went on having two naps for another couple of months.

Stephie - you poor thing having to deal with a split lip, so scary!! This is such a dangerous age because they have all this new mobility and absolutely no sense of danger whatsoever! Clara is constantly falling and bumping herself and trying to head down the stairs head first etc. It's nerve-racking! Exciting times though when they are making such rapid progress physically and mentally!

Aimee, lovely to hear your update. It sounds like she is sleeping really well and it's brilliant that she's not suffering too much with teething (unlike my little drama queen, LOL).

Seaweed :hugs: I do think it is stressful to have to leave your baby even when all is going smoothly in daycare, and I think that times of transition and change just really highlight this and can bring up some very strong emotions. I know when we had to change childminder with Thomas it was an intensely stressful period for both me and him. It does settle down again once everything settles.

Gaia :hugs: Sorry you were back to bedtime battles. Can't believe you have 8 teeth already!

Welcome to the thread to the new people. I'm sorry for not commenting specifically but I will try to do so when I have more time and energy!

AFM, Clara's sleep has been pretty bad for the last few nights. I'm not sure if it's teething or just general developmental stuff or just that she is a generally rubbish sleeper! No signs of any more actual teeth but she definitely has a lot going on developmentally. She is starting using lots of gestures like waving bye bye and shaking her head for no and she is really starting to understand a lot more of what we say too. And she is so mobile, she just doesn't stop moving! She's lost all her baby fat and is just pure muscle, she is just on the go all day long, cruising around the furniture and climbing and high speed crawling and so on. She seems really grown up all of a sudden, like she is reaching a new stage, particularly with the language stuff. So I guess this is my latest excuse for why she can't stay asleep for any reasonable stretch of time!


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## freddie

Lol Polaris I always have a "latest excuse" for my little one's sleep too!! Last night was pretty bad - I realised that I had fallen into the habit of bringing LO into bed with me and just feeding him back to sleep more and more as it means I was getting more sleep. So last night I though I'd better try to "nip it in the bud". Well.... He had different ideas! He was most upset with me trying to get him to sleep without feeding and although he would fall asleep in my arms, he would only go into an ever so light sleep so the slightest movement would wake him and he'd start to cry. I endured 2 hours of this before giving in and feeding him. It's made me question why it is that I am trying to stop him from feeding if it settles him so easily and allows me to get more rest? It's frustrating cos everyone basically says he "shouldn't" be feeding at all overnight but I guess he's having about three night feeds atm... Is this terrible? SHould I listen to everyone or just do what's "easiest"? Am I gonna make things worse in the long run if I continue to feed him to settle at night/ let him sleep in bed with me?!? Aaaa sorry for all the questions and rambling!!


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## gaiagirl

Rachel I think doing what works for you is the best idea, who cares what people and books say! Are you cosleeping? If so it's really common for babies to nurse several times a night and 3 is not bad at all! It's all about what you can live with :)

Polaris I ALWAYS have a latest excuse, but teething has been pretty constant for months. Arg. Those sound like amazing developments! Wow!


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## seaweed eater

Time for a big catch up!

Polaris - I'm sorry about C's disrupted sleep, but glad your OH was around to support you :hugs: I'm so impressed by everything C is doing now! Sounds like she is just blossoming at the moment! :cloud9: Too bad it has to affect their sleep the way it does. I hope you feel like you have a better handle on the two-kid bedtime situation. It sounds to me like you do. You already know this but things change all the time, and it will get easier soon. :hugs:

lch - :wave: sorry to see you here. I think you've gotten some good advice. How are things going? I feel for you, with your studies and your work schedule you're really in a difficult position :hugs: please don't feel guilty for creating the habits though. Their needs change all the time and it would just not make very much sense not to go with what works when they are tiny. It's just that some of them have an easy time adjusting to their own changing needs, and others need some more help.

Stephie - sorry about the hair pulling and rough sleep :( it's hard at this age when they just can't understand that something is hurting you. It does sound like C is learning so much and just loving to explore at the moment! :cloud9: I think babbling could affect sleep if he's excited about it. I hope his lip is better and you finally see those teeth soon, and that things get better. :hugs:

Rachel - it sounds like things are going smoothly despite the extra wakings, and if you're fine with the way things are and LO is happy and alert, there's really no reason to change anything! :thumbup:

Noelle - I think the others are right to question whether C is really ready for one nap! You know all the signs of readiness to look for so I'm sure she'll let you know. The daycare issue is tough, but still, you are paying them, and you should be able to ask them to do what is best for your daughter! I hope you enjoyed your July 4th holiday :hugs:

Amy - it sounds like things are going so well!! I'm so glad :hugs: I'm glad Chloe's over her cold and hope she continues to do great in her crib! She clearly does know how to SS. Well done! :thumbup: And congrats on the tooth! :happydance:

Kettle - I agree that it seems like not enough wake time. I don't see how LO could be overtired by bedtime when he's been asleep for nearly half the day. Much more than 3 hours during the day can start to disrupt nighttime sleep.

Aimee - Josalyn seems so happy and mellow about everything! I love it. :cloud9: She does seem to be growing a lot and I'm glad it hasn't affected her sleep too much. If you got through crawling and pulling up I'm guessing things will be stable at least until she starts walking! :thumbup: I hope so, anyway! Thanks for the update <3

Gaia - you just HAVE to get a break now that tooth #8 is out. You HAVE to!!!! I really have my fingers crossed for you. :hugs:

Rmsh - I would embrace the thumb sucking! It's great that she has learned how to self-soothe, and this way she won't be dependent on a lovey or pacifier that could fall out of reach. I remember reading that most kids stop on their own without fuss anyway. In any case, you can't take her thumb away, so...focus on the positives! Glad you are getting some sleep :hugs:

AFM - I'm not sure that it was the right decision to stop sleep training. :shrug: I'm really conflicted about it. Munchkin's sleep has bounced almost right back to where it was before we started. He was up 4 times last night, and his morning nap is often short (before last week it was almost always long). He's also continued to be upset and frustrated at sleep time. I guess he would be upset no matter what, but I can't decide whether being gentler is worth the reduction in his sleep quality. He could really use that long morning nap. :nope: I know there's a good reason I made this change. I just fear that what I'm really doing is appeasing my own conscience at his expense, if that makes sense! But my conscience is all I have, so I'm going with it.

It really amazes me how perceptive he is. He's still going down awake and SS; the only thing I've changed is that he can nurse as often as he wants to now. It's been, what, two days, and clearly the message was received. :dohh:

He did a little better at daycare yesterday and we had a nice day off today, so hopefully things will be better soon. Thanks to all of you for your support. <3


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## freddie

Gaia - we're kind of half cosleeping - he starts off in his cot and I sh/pat him back to sleep for early evening wakings then at about 10pm I feed him and put him back in his cot. Once I've gone to bed I bring him in with me on his next waking and then basically nurse him back to sleep from there. It may be more than 3 times that he feeds, I'm just so sleepy I don't really know lol...

Seeweed - I think that if you feel conflicted about the sleep training you were doing then it was probably the right decision to stop :) Is there anything that works with him to lengthen his nap again? A while back I was really focussing on LO's naps and spent a week napping with him and that got him into better habits of taking longer naps. It didn't last mind you as the next sleep bump we had it all went back to the way it was before (grrr) but now I've found a new tactic of putting him in his pram for naps and rocking it if he wakes before he's had long enough... I do it from behind so he doesn't see me and it works so much better than going into him when he was napping in his cot cos I think he just got too excited when he saw me and just wanted to get up then!

He is definitely a happy and alert baby, I think the problem is with me and and DH! We are very sleep deprived :( But I don't think that I have the energy to do anything other than let him feed to sleep atm. Annoyingly he has started waking earlier in the morning - he was up at 4.45am yesterday (although that might be due to my attempting/ failing not to feed him) and 5.50am this morning... We tried to get him back to sleep but he was WIDE AWAKE and totally not willing... Waking through the night plus getting up before 6am SUCKS.
On another note, I have a little query I wonder if you ladies might have some advice on...

In August we are going to a wedding. It's at 3pm and about a 45 minute drive away. We have a hotel as we will be staying overnight. I'm trying to figure out what the best plan with naps will be! At the moment LO's naps are roughly 9.30-11 and 2-3.30. 

I am trying to decide whether to stick with normal nap times and travel down to hotel around midday and let LO nap there before we go to the wedding in the afternoon but cut it short (it would only be able to be about 30/40 mins then) or try to move his morning nap earlier and therefore afternoon nap earlier too... Or have normal morning nap time and try for an earlier afternoon nap... Hmmmmmmm.... I don't want him to be super tired and fussy at the wedding! What would you guys do?


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## stephie_corin

Gaia, poor F! Hopefully you get a break for a while now! In some ways you could look at it as a positive - you've got a lot of the teething behind you now. Big hugs to you both... And damn that BnB curse!!

RMSH, my boy has sucked his thumb on and off and it's never become a serious habit, so I wouldn't worry too much. I've actually read that thumb sucking can be better orthodontically speaking than a pacifier, but obviously breaking the habit can be harder. I'd actually see it as a good thing - she's learning to self soothe.

Polaris, Clara is a star! How amazing! I can't believe she's learnt so many new things! What a clever girl!!! It's interesting that she's on the go all the time but not sleeping better... So much for physical activity tiring them out :)

Rachel, I think it's fine you feed him to sleep and do what gets you the most amount of sleep. I'm sorry for the early wakings though, that's tough! As for your question, I'd get him up early so all naps are earlier - that way he can have a longer afternoon snooze and will be in good form for the wedding! Good luck!

SE, is Munchkin just waking more to feed and then going back to sleep? I wouldn't be so hard on yourself, it doesn't sound like you've gone backwards at all - he's still SS - he's just feeding more frequently (and yes, he sounds like a pretty clever boy!). Could you sleep on a mattress in his room so it's not so tough to feed him in the night, at least until this rough patch is over? It shouldn't be too hard to start up the training again whenever you guys are ready. Hugs to you.

We've been having strange nights. This last week he has fallen into a really light sleep at bedtime (usually 630ish) but I can't transfer him for at least 1.5 hours. He sleeps ok until 10, wakes for a feed, sleeps until midnight and then between midnight - 3am he's really unsettled. I was so tired last night around 2am that I thought to myself, I'll just pop him at the end of the bed to play and have a quick sleep... And I actually sat him up at the end of the bed and lay down again! Luckily he started crying and it woke me up! He then sleeps ok until 630, waking once or twice more for a feed, usually at 4 and 5.

I have no idea what is causing the middle of the night wakefulness?

Oh, and we have tweaked our routine again slightly - we are now doing 2.5, 3.5, 4.


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## stephie_corin

I can't believe I forgot our most exciting development... Culver has been self settling at nap time!!! It's not every day but lately, at least 50% of the time, when he wakes mid nap I can shhhhhh and gently stroke his hair and he drifts off again... This is a good sign right?!? This is the baby who has to be picked up for every night waking!


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## stephie_corin

Stay away curse...


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## Noelle610

Why do babies wake at the SAME time regardless of when they go to bed? We let Charlie take a late nap yesterday so that we could go out for 4th of July. She slept 2:30-5 and went to bed around 8:45. I thought for sure she'd sleep in. Nope! Up at 6:30 as per the usual.


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## mellyboo

I haven't wrote in here forever ... Anyone feel that it doesn't matter how crappy lo slept or good it's always the same thing ... I always freak that her naps were like nothing all day and she goes to bed over tired but then sleep great all night rather then a day here she has good naps has no prob going to sleep then sleeps like crap..... You can never win just wait it out augh!


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## Noelle610

mellyboo said:


> I haven't wrote in here forever ... Anyone feel that it doesn't matter how crappy lo slept or good it's always the same thing ... I always freak that her naps were like nothing all day and she goes to bed over tired but then sleep great all night rather then a day here she has good naps has no prob going to sleep then sleeps like crap..... You can never win just wait it out augh!

Oh, I know that feeling. I finally had to let go a bit. Unfortunately it's not totally a science!


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## AmyS

Gaia - At least he might have a long stretch with no teething pain now! That's a lot of teeth to get at this age.

Stephie - Awesome news on the ss!!! That's great!! We did that motn unsettled bit too, I'm not sure what causes it. I'm sure by this time next week, things will have changed again! 

Mellyboo - I feel that way too - If it's been an almost perfect day, I think we'll have a good night, and it'll end up being crap, but the days where she naps like crap, she might sleep the best. It makes no sense!

Polaris - That's so cute that Clara is starting to communicate and understand you! I think all of that is a legitimate excuse for poor sleep - they are too excited to sleep and need to practice, practice, practice!

SE - I think you're doing the right thing. Munchkin isn't going to forget how to ss, and maybe he really needs the extra food right now! Glad daycare is going better! I know how hard it is to hear that your LO is having a difficult time. 

Rachel - For nap times and the wedding, I would probably try for a little earlier afternoon nap. I bet that with all of the activity at the wedding, he will probably be too excited to be cranky. 

Noelle - She's trying to keep you on schedule! haha
_____________

As for us - I "think" I officially have a crib sleeper now! 

I had been putting it off since she was sick and keeping her elevated in her rock 'n play. Wednesday night, I decided to put her in the crib since I had Thursday off. I fed her to sleep at 7:30 and put her down at 8pm, with her daddy-approved lovey. She slept until 4:15am!!!! I fed her, but she didn't fall back to sleep. She was trying to get comfortable on my lap, so I kissed her, gave her the lovey, and put her back down. She fussed for a few seconds and then put herself back to sleep until 7:15am.

Last night was similar, but she woke up at 2:30am for a bottle, and I did pat her to sleep that time. 

I am very proud of her. Apparently, it is all about the lovey! Last week when I tried it without the lovey, she was up every 45 minutes to an hour.


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## seaweed eater

You ladies are very kind, as always, and I appreciate your support. It does seem like Munchkin is not getting as much rest, but maybe I'm projecting! :haha: And the nap -- he really could use that. Rachel, sadly nothing has ever worked to extend his naps except just before he started extending them himself. Well, nothing to do but hope things are back to normal soon. Stephie, I don't really want to sleep in his room, because he's sensitive to noise and I think I might make things worse. But his room is close to ours so it's not that much extra work.

Rachel, I'm sorry about the early mornings, my heart goes out to you :hugs: as you said, those are just soul-crushing after you've been up throughout the night. It sounds like continuing to feed to sleep feels like the best option, and there's no problem with that. Regarding the wedding, here's what I'd do: try to put him down early for his first nap. If he takes a proper first nap, excellent. If he goes to sleep but takes a short nap, then you haven't lost anything compared to cutting short his afternoon nap. And if he fights the nap until 9:30, try an earlier afternoon nap, and if he fights THAT until 2 then cut it short. Is that possible or do you need to know in advance what you're doing? I know it's time consuming to deal with a baby who's fighting naps when you are trying to get ready to leave.

Stephie, I think it is GREAT news that C is self-settling!!!! :happydance: Stay away, curse! I wonder whether the MOTN wakefulness is milestone-related. I hope it passes soon. :hugs: I've been meaning to ask you, is BF going any better these days? Did you ever try swaddling him for feedings?

Noelle, sorry about the short night! I hope you guys have a good day today. I completely agree with you, it's crazy that they won't just sleep in when they need to!

Melly, I totally agree, sometimes it seems like it doesn't matter that much what we do :shrug: just have to keep believing and keep trying, I guess, but not take ourselves too seriously! :p

Amy, what a FANTASTIC update!!!! :yipee: I'm so glad the lovey has been so helpful. Sounds like things have just clicked for her. So glad!


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## seaweed eater

I just noticed how many of the babies we're currently discussing in here have C names. Charlie, Clara, Cully, Chloe...what's up with that? :p


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## Noelle610

seaweed eater said:


> I just noticed how many of the babies we're currently discussing in here have C names. Charlie, Clara, Cully, Chloe...what's up with that? :p

Do we need to put out a public service announcement on the trimester boards? Don't name your baby something that starts with C because they are destined to be a poor sleeper? :haha:


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## Noelle610

AmyS said:


> Noelle - She's trying to keep you on schedule! haha

LOL, so true! She is the most routined child I have ever met in my entire life.



seaweed eater said:


> You Noelle, sorry about the short night! I hope you guys have a good day today. I completely agree with you, it's crazy that they won't just sleep in when they need to!

It's just so nuts! I know it's a biological reality that overtired = less sleep, but why? What purpose does it serve? It's not like with a newborn who wakes for feeds frequently and/or doesn't fall into deep sleep. Both of these things have obvious purposes is nature in terms of survival.


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## seaweed eater

I guess cause they might be overtired from running from a lion and need the extra time from 5 to 6 AM to keep running? :p I don't know, the way I've understood the whole cortisol thing is that if something is keeping you up then you probably need to continue staying up in order to deal with that thing. But who knows if that's right.


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## polaris

LOL at all the babies with C names! I wonder what the best letter of the alphabet is for babies who sleep through the night - but I'm guessing their parents don't hang out in sleep threads!

Seaweed, I'm sorry to hear you are doubting yourself and feeling conflicted at the moment. I agree that you need to follow your instinct. I would give him a little bit of time and once he is settled again in daycare then you can reassess the situation at that point. When I went back to work Thomas started waking in the night again after having previously slept through for a couple of nights and I just went along with it and fed him because I felt that he needed the comfort and the reconnection. He didn't end up dropping the feeds by himself but it really only took one night to break the habit once I felt that we were both ready (a few months later). Also, Thomas was and is very sensitive to noise and I could never have slept in his room, I could never even go in to check on him because it would wake him every time. It's amazing how different they are, Clara sleeps so much better when I'm right there beside her.

Amy - wow, I am so amazed and impressed with the transformation in Chloe's sleep! Maybe I should try a different lovey for Clara as she doesn't seem very attached to her current one (she enjoys chatting away to it and hugging it when she wakes up in the morning but doesn't want it at all when she's going to sleep :dohh:)

Noelle - I know, you would think they would just have a lie-in for once! Hope the 4th July celebrations went well.

Stephie - WOW that is amazing news that Cully is starting to self-settle! Definitely a step in the right direction. I hate when they are awake for long stretches during the night, I am just too tired to properly deal with Clara at that time and can relate to your story of just sitting him up to have a little play and going back to sleep!

Rachel - if feeding to sleep is working and getting you more sleep then I think it's OK. Well anyway, I do the same, she gets a boob stuck in her mouth at every waking because I am just too tired to try anything else! Re the wedding, I would probably aim for a good morning nap at home and then either travel down early and try to get him to nap there before the wedding or if he will sleep in the car, I would travel down at naptime and hope he slept on the way. Will your LO sleep in the car? Clara only ever sleeps for 30 minutes in the car so it's not ideal. It also depends how cranky he gets when he's tired. With Thomas he would have needed a proper nap or he wouldn't cope with the excitement of the wedding. With Clara, she would be fine after a cat-nap, just a bit wired maybe but distracted by everything that is going on.

My update - OH was in work this evening so I did bedtime on my own and it was really smooth! Thank you, sleep gods!! Stephie, interesting that you have changed wake-times, we have changed ours too. I'm actually trying her napping by the clock rather than just going by wake-times, aiming for naps at about 9/9.30 and 1.30/2 and bedtime at 7.30/8. Wake-times 2.5-3/3-3.5/4. Mind you, the weather is beautiful here so we've been out a lot during the mornings so her middle wake-time has often been longer, more like 4 hours sometimes. That is too long for her though because she is getting very tired and cranky by the end.


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## lch28

Just would like to update that jonathan is now asleep in his crib in his sleep sack for an hour so far :happydance:


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## bababas

hi i need to join this thread lol. i hope i make sense im so sleep deprived today.

first of all, when we have a bad night, all i can think about is putting an end to myself, coz i am so sleepy. then i think about different ways on how to end myself to amuse me! and i dont even care that it means never waking up. i miss sleep that much. i feel so abnormal for thinking this.

MIL said to try to put him in his own bed. if i try to put him in his own bed (well i have tried every week, but why do you think he is in my bed) coz he just wont sleep in his bed in the night :shrug: he wakes up again and again until i put him in my bed :shrug: so my evening ME time can turn to a 3 hour wrestle time. until in the end he will be in my bed.

tonight was like this.

sleep 9.30pm (he had a late nap, i think he is dropping his 3rd soon)
feed 00.30 (hardly remember ;) )
feed 3.30am (got a good sleep here! but felt like 1 hour :( )
feed 4am 5am 6am, he was grumpy like couldnt fall asleep but wanted to sleep so my 4-6 was like shit. also teething, two incisors are almost there the lower ones.

at 6 i gave him to OH and slept!
at 8 am OH and ds1 went to inlaws so i could nap with LO. napped 8-11am. with one feed in between. :wacko:

his sleep has been unpredictable since month 3. but i notice it has been a bit better now. like his movements dont wake him up anymore. 

if i have energy tonight i will try to put him in his bed AGAIN. :cry:


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## stephie_corin

Amy! Congratulations on the crib sleeping! That's awesome! You really should feel so proud of yourself and of Chloe!

SE, breastfeeding is going pretty well. No changes for the worse! He still has three solid day feeds (before naps and bedtime) and every third day or so I can convince him to take a small feed. I realised his day feeds are 4+ hours apart and his night feeds are 1.5 hours - 45 minutes apart. Doh! Hopefully once he starts eating more he will cut back on night feeding. We still get the odd biting incident but I'm finding the unlatch, count to 10 technique pretty helpful.

I understand why you don't want to sleep in Munchkin's room. I don't have any helpful suggestions so I'll just offer hugs and hope this period passes soon for you both.

Noelle, I think out bodies are set to wakeup at roughly the same time if we make a habit of regularly getting up at a set time. Haven't you woken at 7am on a weekend (or whenever your usual alarm time is), even without the alarm? I find this always happens when you're desperate for a sleep-in :) maybe the same applies to babies?

Polaris, I like your approach of putting Clara down at the same time for naps. It seems like a really good way to regulate her sleep. I've been wondering (if you go by waketime alone) how the baby gets a chance to adjust for tired days. If 10 of every 24 hours are spent awake, even longer naps won't help the baby catch up on sleep. So maybe regular nap times based on approximate waketimes would get around this. Baby could then take longer or shorter naps as they need on a day to day basis. I might try something similar, although Cully's first morning wake up can vary quite a bit still.

Bababas, can you write out your whole routine during the day? At first glance it looks like your LO could be overtired. Bedtime looks too late and you could be keeping him up too long between naps. Three hours is also very long for a nap. He could be getting too much day sleep. Let us know your routine. I'm sure there will be some helpful comments. I'm sorry you are struggling so much.

We are going on holiday in a little over a week and to say I am nervous about naps and night sleep is a huge understatement! I've actually been lying in bed worrying about what time to wake him up, how can I get him to nap in the car/plane etc! I need to relax and just go with the flow. Easier said than done!

I'm hoping everyone has a good night!


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## gaiagirl

Bababas - around 4 months is a VERY tough time for sleep for a lot of babies. Months 4-7 were pretty terrible for us, but bedsharing really really helped. If its working for you (at least better) then don't worry about what others say.

Not sure about 2 naps at 4 months, that's pretty young. I found my LO could only be awake 2 hours at that age so definitely needed 3 sometimes 4 naps!

Stephie - do you have a carrier? Baby wearing and travel go hand in hand :)


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## seaweed eater

Polaris, thanks for sharing what you did with your son. Munchkin sounds like both of your children in different ways but often more like your son! I hope it's not a few months of this before we can go back to the way things were this past month. I'm tired :sleep: I'm glad bedtime went more smoothly for you! :thumbup:

Bababas, I agree with what Stephie and Gaia have said so far. Bedsharing isn't a problem on its own -- I would focus more on getting into a good routine. So it would be helpful if you could share your usual daytime schedule.

Stephie, I wish I had advice for you about travel, but we have a trip planned too in a few months and I'm totally dreading it, largely for the same reasons. I think you are right that you will just have to go with the flow. You know all the tricks already so I'm sure you will do the best you can in the moment. :hugs:

Also, to your question for Polaris about BTC naps, I tend to do something in between. I try not to have a WT much shorter than three hours, or he is unlikely to take a long nap -- and much longer than three hours he starts to get really cranky -- but I also aim for approximately 9 AM. The effect this has is basically to reduce the variance from his wake-up time...he can be up anytime from 5 to 7 but the nap almost always starts between 8:30 and 9:30. And if he was up reasonably close to 6, I just try for 9 exactly. That has worked well for us. Does that make sense?

We've had a difficult 24 hours. Nursed every 60-90 mins last night. Good nap this morning but then awake 4.5 hours and had a lot of trouble going down. I suspect bedtime will be too late tonight. There's still a lot of room for things to get worse, but they do seem to be heading that way. Not sure how much longer I can sustain this if it continues. I have no idea how some of you do it for weeks!


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## gaiagirl

Hugs SE xxxx every 60-90 is rough! Teeth!? That's my go to, hahahahahah.


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## seaweed eater

Thanks <3 It could be teeth! But I know better than to get my hopes up. Two in one week would be a pretty big week...


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## stephie_corin

Ah SE! Hugs!!!! You poor thing!!! C wakes very frequently but I'm sure my body has adjusted to it. I think you feel worse when you suddenly have a night of frequent wakings because its such a shock to your system. Did you try pain relief to see if it helped? What a tough time for both of you. How's his walking etc., going? Could it be developmental? I'm so sorry my dear friend.

SE I really like your nap approach. That sounds perfect for us. What do you do if Munchkin sleeps past 6am? Just say he sleeps until 7 - would you do nap at 10 or is 930 the latest you aim for a nap?

Gaia, yep we have a vast array of wraps and carriers. Do you think woven wrap or ergo for the trip? He hasn't slept in a carrier for a long time but I'm hopeful he will at least be able to take short naps. He spends time in them everyday so he's used to being in the carrier. He has not slept anywhere but our bed, in a quiet bedroom, for months now! Rods and backs and all that...


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## gaiagirl

Well, F is a picky sleeper too but when tired he will sleep in a carrier after 5-10min of fussing and bouncing/swaying. A woven is so much comfier IMO but F sleeps in his Beco/ergo too.

SE they often do come in close together!

AFM - Arg not a weekend of good evenings. He's been up LATE both nights and its definitely getting me down how much of my time between 7-10 pm is spent on trying and failing to get him to sleep :(


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## stephie_corin

Gaia, I'm so sorry! Is he taking long naps now? Has anything else changed in his routine? Are you putting him down in his room or still out in the living room?


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## gaiagirl

Today he had two 1.5 hour naps on me, and tried his bedroom for evening. Wed and Thurs night went so well in his room! Got my hopes up :( Fri and Sat both sucked. 

Feels like there's no rhyme or reason. Naps don't seem to have any impact!


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## polaris

Good morning everyone.
Just a very quick post, I just wanted to share my AMAZING news! Clara went to sleep at 8.15 p.m. last night and slept on her own (on the futon) until, wait for it, 2.15 a.m.!!! That is a six hour stretch! I think that is her personal best! The rest of the night was pretty good too, just a couple of short wakings and we got up at 7! Wow, it would be great if this continues!

Sorry to hear that several of you are having a tough time at the moment, will come back later to reply to other people's posts.


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## stephie_corin

Gaia I'm so sorry! Hang in there. He's shown you he can sleep in his room in the evenings so just keep persevering!

Polaris, yay for your amazing news! That really is amazing! I'm so happy for you!


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## bababas

stephie_corin said:


> Bababas, can you write out your whole routine during the day? At first glance it looks like your LO could be overtired. Bedtime looks too late and you could be keeping him up too long between naps. Three hours is also very long for a nap. He could be getting too much day sleep. Let us know your routine. I'm sure there will be some helpful comments. I'm sorry you are struggling so much.




gaiagirl said:


> Bababas - around 4 months is a VERY tough time for sleep for a lot of babies. Months 4-7 were pretty terrible for us, but bedsharing really really helped. If its working for you (at least better) then don't worry about what others say.
> 
> Not sure about 2 naps at 4 months, that's pretty young. I found my LO could only be awake 2 hours at that age so definitely needed 3 sometimes 4 naps!




seaweed eater said:


> Bababas, I agree with what Stephie and Gaia have said so far. Bedsharing isn't a problem on its own -- I would focus more on getting into a good routine. So it would be helpful if you could share your usual daytime schedule.

thank you ladies.

i agree, i should prolly not try to make him nap longer. it is a habit of us when he was younger, coz then he would be so grumpy and would wanna nap again. and so i let him nap more. but he is older now, so i prolly should just wake him up when he wakes for his nap for a drink?

TODAY was a good night, even though *i tried again to put him in his crib! which did not end well.* but napping in it he has no problem. why is that? i dont get it. haha.

after i finally calmed him down coz i tried to put him in his crip he woke 
00:30
03:30
05:30 from here until 8:30 he was grumpy coz of his teeth, he wanted to use boobie. still i feel well rested.


Our usual schedule has been.

wake 8:00
nap 9:30-11 (it seems now he can be awake 2hrs though) (sometimes the naps are shorter, sometimes i feed him to make him nap longer. bad?)

nap 1pm or 12 til 3pm. (i make him nap longer here too with nursing. im gonna stop this one, stopped it yesterday so he napped 1pm-2:30pm)

nap 5pm or 6pm 40mins nap. when his bro comes home from playschool he is so excited he wont nap right away.

sleep 8:30pm more or less.

anything weird you see? well he is teething also, two teeth coming at ones.


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## seaweed eater

Polaris that is wonderful!!! :happydance: I hope you get many more of those!!

Gaia, I'm sorry about your crummy evenings :hugs: if you're not doing anything differently, maybe WW37? Ugh. Hang in there!

Stephie, 9:45 is probably the latest I'd ever try to start the first nap. Maybe even 9:30. A solid nap at 10 or later starts making a good bedtime unlikely (as insane as it sounds to say that :haha:). Of course, it's possible for him to fall asleep after 10 despite my intentions. If that happens, I try to wake him by 11 or after 40 minutes, whichever's later, or something like that.

Bababas, a couple things I notice. First, that's a ton of daytime sleep, even for a 4-month-old, and second, the wake times are a little inconsistent. It sounds like the nap durations can be inconsistent too. I would just work on making things more consistent and, as you said, not encouraging him to nap for so long. So for example something like
8 awake
10-11:30 nap
1:30-3 nap
5-5:40 nap
8 asleep.
That way the WTs are more consistent at (mostly) 2 hours, which is age-appropriate, and none of the naps are too long. It's still a lot of daytime sleep at over 3.5 hours but that's much better than the ~6 it seems you sometimes get now.

Also, I really would just give up on the crib at nighttime if you aren't willing to be consistent about it. Sometimes they like different things at nighttime and naps...it's strange, I agree, but actually not abnormal for babies.

AFM, Munchkin was up at 4:10 today, exhausted but unable to go back to sleep :sleep: I just don't really understand. No teeth, but we did give pain relief and he had longer stretches before that so maybe it is teething? (Gaia, I know they tend to come in twos, but the one he just got was his second bottom one so I don't think there's any reason a top one should follow right away.) Also he essentially cluster nursed for part of yesterday so that's consistent with teething too. Or maybe it's milestones? There's a ton he's working on but he always acquires things so gradually (teeth too!), it's hard to tell...


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## polaris

Seaweed, :hugs: that really sounds rough especially after having had such good nights when you were doing the sleep training. What way is he when he wakes so frequently during the night? Is there any possibility of settling him without boob, even for some of the wakings? (I nurse Clara at every waking so obviously feel free to ignore this suggestion, LOL, but with Thomas I used to only nurse him if he clearly wasn't settling any other way).

By the way, your approach of using a combination of wake-times and by-the-clock is pretty much exactly what I am doing - except that you explained it much better than me!

Gaia - that's frustrating when things go bad again after having improved. But I always try to remind myself that at least there are some better nights/evenings now, whereas previously they were all bad! What time are you trying for bedtime now? I've recently changed Clara's bedtime to 8 p.m. (which is a 4 hour wake-time) and it seems to be helping her to settle quicker. 

Bababas - I think Seaweed has given you good advice on trying to get into a more regular routine with more consistent wake-times across the day. I know it can be hard to manage on a practical level when you have more than one child though. Do you have constrictions around your daily routine with his older brother (e.g. playschool drop-offs/collections), I know you mentioned he won't settle immediately after his brother gets home which is understandable. It's great that he will nap in the crib, even if he doesn't like it at bedtime. I would stick to the crib for naps and maybe just bedshare at night times if that works better.

Seaweed and Steph - I used to dread holidays with Thomas because I worried so much about taking him out of his routine and making sure he got naps on the journey. Honestly, it was always easier than I expected/predicted. Thomas was a very fussy sleeper and needed everything just exactly right, but actually he always managed to sleep at some point on the journey, usually on my lap once the airplane engines started. I definitely second the recommendation to bring a comfy carrier but if you are flying make sure that you are able to put it on and off easily as you will have to take it off to go through security and they generally ask you to take baby out of the carrier for the flight too (although I can't see how they wouldn't be safer in the carrier than just with those baby seatbelts). I don't get stressed at all really about travelling with Clara - I figure if I got through it OK with Thomas then she is just not going to be a problem at all. She is much easier to travel with than Thomas because she is generally more adaptable and doesn't really care about routines - she also doesn't generally get cranky even if she's shattered. I do remember how stressed I used to get before journeys with Thomas though. But somehow it always worked out well. We only ever had one bad flight with him but that was when he was older, he was a couple of days after his second birthday and because he was two they wouldn't let him sit on my lap and insisted he sit on his own seat with the seatbelt. He was literally hysterical. I begged the air hostess to just give me a baby seatbelt and warned her that he would cry the whole time and she just shrugged and said "oh babies cry all the time on flights, it's OK". !!! I was so upset because Thomas wasn't even that well and he was just so so upset by it. For the return flight we spent the week preparing him for what would happen and he was fine. That was the only bad experience we ever had.


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## gaiagirl

Thanks ladies! I have been doing 3.5/4 hour WT and bed at 7:30/8 and some nights it's great others its a huge fail. So unpredictable. It's currently 8:15am and DH and I are up and at em and he is still sleeping.

I know that's bad, ill wake him in a few min but arggggggg! 

Polaris - Yay!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Did you sleep with her or in your room for that stretch?

SE - Oh! You already have two then I dunno! I hope things get back on track for you.

Bababas - those three naps look good, I agree with SEs comments too.

Alright well...guess ill wake him up and hope for something better today. I feel a bit useless like nothing I try helps. Not sure what to do next. I'm almost tempted to sleep starve him and do 2 short naps and make sure he's exhausted at 7pm. I know it goes against all advice but honestly those 'experts' never seem to be right for this baby!


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## polaris

Gaiagirl - sounds like it could be worth a try? Clara seems to do better with shorter naps e.g. 2 naps of 1 hour each even though she will happily nap for much longer. 

To answer your question, Clara was in the room by herself for that long stretch, I actually went to bed in my own bed for once! She usually always wakes up by about 10 or 10.30 so I just go to bed at that stage and go in with her. If she wakes earlier or I'm going to bed later I go to bed in my own bed and go into her when she wakes. I prefer going to bed in my own bed because I like reading for a bit before I go to sleep but usually I'm only in there for about half an hour before I have to go in to her. Fingers crossed for a repeat performance tonight but I'm not holding my breath!


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## stephie_corin

Bababas, SE gives excellent advice. Good luck - please keep us updated.

SE, I'm so sorry you are having such a rough time. Hang in there sweetie.

Gaia - go for it! I will totally be doing the same if it works for you. We have textbook perfect days, but nights are still bad!

Polaris - I hadn't appreciated that Clara slept BY HERSELF!!! That's doubly amazing. Thanks for the reassurance with travel. I know I've already asked your advice previously so you must be sick of hearing me complain :) that story about Thomas is awful! Poor boy!!

So it's been 2.5 hours since bedtime. Wee man keeps waking crying. Next wakeup I'm going to give pain relief. He is drooling and chewing on erything, the teeth must be close!!


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## stephie_corin

I am not feeling confident about tonight. I can't even decide if I should give iboprufen or paracetamol ... Lol. And I have to hang out my wet cloth nappies once he ever gets out of my arms. Only down side to switching from disposables is the late night hang out...!


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## gaiagirl

How often do you wash? I have enough that I can wash every 2-3 days (actually longer but I don't go longer) and start early in the day on wash day...


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## stephie_corin

Hi Gaia! I'm only on about day 5 of cloth nappies so it's still pretty exciting doing the wash every day ... I moan in jest :) I think I need to get a closed bucket too before I start going longer than 1 day? I've got lots of nappies now but I'm still experimenting with combinations. I need to buy some more boosters too. While DH was away I cut up one of his hiking micro-fleece jumpers into fleece liners. Lol. He's been too busy at work to notice yet.


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## seaweed eater

Stephie, give ibuprofen! And get yourself a closed bucket!! Hmm, I'm full of advice today :haha: really though, we just use a trash can with a wet bag in it, and that works well for washing every few days. I really hope the rest of your night improves :hugs: and that those teeth finally make an appearance!!!!

Polaris, thank you for sharing your experiences traveling with your son. It's really encouraging to hear that things went better than you feared for the most part despite his temperament. Although that one story is so sad :( as if your only concern about him crying was what other people would think! Poor Thomas.

Maybe I should try settling Munchkin without boob more often during the night. I always give it a few minutes before I even go into his room, and then I wait until it seems like he's getting really frustrated. But he does get frustrated about 90% of the time. I just feel like I shouldn't leave him for long unless I'm willing to really put my foot down. If we're in WIO mode, there's no reason to endure that much crying or, moreover, to reward him for it. KWIM? He's obviously just sucking for comfort. Usually he calms down right away and doesn't eat much before he's ready to go back to bed. This morning was unusual -- he actually fell asleep twice but woke up a few minutes later and got increasingly upset each time. By the end he didn't want to nurse anymore and if I sat him on the floor he'd just throw himself backward. The only thing that consoled him eventually was when I put him in the carrier and walked around in the dark singing to him, as if he were 6 weeks old. That's the only time it has really seemed developmental, like he just couldn't wind down despite being so tired. Other than that he hasn't really been fighting sleep, just needing more help.

I would certainly love to hear any thoughts or ideas from any of you about what I could do differently! I feel like I've kind of forgotten how to WIO!


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## polaris

Stephie - I'm so glad that the switch to cloth nappies is going well. LOL at cutting up hubby's jumper to make liners! We have a bucket with a lid and wash probably every second day although I could get away with washing less often now that the weather is better for drying. I hope those teeth break through soon. Still no sign of any new ones here. 

SE - I think you're right, if you are waiting it out then definitely easier to properly wait it out rather than still holding on to the wish to change things. In that vein, maybe you should go in to him quicker rather than waiting for him to become frustrated. Ha, I think that probably contradicts my earlier "advice"! LOL. Seriously though, to me, what you are describing does sound developmental or a reaction to all the changes with daycare etc, it sounds like he is just really looking for extra comfort and reassurance. So maybe the best thing to do if you are waiting it out is to just embrace that need and make a commitment to providing the extra reassurance that he needs at the moment - maybe by providing a prompt response he will feel more secure and this phase will pass more quickly?


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## seaweed eater

Thanks :hugs: I think I'll try that for the next 24 hours at least and see how it goes. He does SS so it's just hard to let go of hope that he will go back to sleep on his own. But maybe things would go more smoothly if I went to him right away. No way to know unless I try it.

Edit: what do you think I should do when I nurse him and put him down and he's not ready to fall asleep yet? This has been an issue recently -- he is very drowsy while nursing but then cries when I put him down, until I pick him up and nurse again. There's no way to put him down asleep so I just have to keep doing that until he settles. I guess maybe pick him up after a couple minutes, as a rule?


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## bababas

seaweed eater said:


> Bababas, a couple things I notice. First, that's a ton of daytime sleep, even for a 4-month-old, and second, the wake times are a little inconsistent. It sounds like the nap durations can be inconsistent too. I would just work on making things more consistent and, as you said, not encouraging him to nap for so long. So for example something like
> 8 awake
> 10-11:30 nap
> 1:30-3 nap
> 5-5:40 nap
> 8 asleep.
> That way the WTs are more consistent at (mostly) 2 hours, which is age-appropriate, and none of the naps are too long. It's still a lot of daytime sleep at over 3.5 hours but that's much better than the ~6 it seems you sometimes get now.
> 
> Also, I really would just give up on the crib at nighttime if you aren't willing to be consistent about it. Sometimes they like different things at nighttime and naps...it's strange, I agree, but actually not abnormal for babies.

thank you so much. that must be it that he is getting too much day time sleep. since he seemed to sleep better yesterday. just time flew by so quickly i didnt realize he was 4 months and needed less day time sleep :dohh: also the cold he had for 3 weeks didnt help either. thank god thats over.
tanx again ladies.

one question.

what should i do if he doenst nap for 1.5 hours? should i bf him to nap more? (doesnt always work) like what if he would only nap for 30 mins? then the whole schedule shifts. i have been lucky though, that if he is awake in the morning for 2 hrs, he has napped 1.5 hour. but today in the afternoon he only napped 45mins, so i bf him to nap another 45mins. is this bad? if it doenst work then the whole day schedule is scewed...

ps his two teeth are almost there, i bet 2-3 more days. so i hope the sleep will get better then. mmm


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## gaiagirl

Stephie that's hilarious about the fleece. We have a Rubbermaid can with a pail liner and a hanging wetbag. I like both. I keep both open though and I find its MUCH better for odour than keeping them closed! Circulation is key ;)

SE totally sounds like he just needs contact for comfort! I would just try not to worry about SS but then to me, it's a developmental milestone like any other and progress ebbs and flows before finally getting there one day. I know it's hard to step back after progress though!

Bababas I would decide what you think LO needs. Sometimes after 40min I nurse or rock my LO back to sleep if he's still cranky, but sometimes I just accept that as the nap and move on. You could try and see what happens? It's such a trial and error thing, you just have to watch LO for cues and see how they respond!

And then of course 2 weeks later they need something different. Hahahahahah. Oh babies.

Well, today was a mess for naps, which I don't care about because evenings CAN'T get worse. Ha. 

Nap 1: attempted to leave him in his room so I could get ready to go out. Nope. Fail. 20 min nap.

Nap 2: three hours later after heading downtown to the Pride Day parade and fest, he crashed in the carrier amidst INTENSE crowds and noise, lol.

Nap 3: now at 5pm because he is so clearly tired and won't make it to 7.

Sighhhh. Oh well!


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## gaiagirl

On a positive note he was a perfect angel all day and made our busy, long outing really fun!


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## mellyboo

It's been so hot here I can't get her to sleep till around 10-11 then she hardly wakes up till 8am .... Honestly I have no idea it's wearing me down how difficult she's being to go to bed we never had a issue but then can you blame her it's soon warm we are buying another a/c this week hopefully that helps and we have are routine back.


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## gaiagirl

That was me last night melly! He slept 10-8, maybe partly the heat...

It's gonna be a looooong summer! Lol


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## seaweed eater

Don't worry Gaia, it sounds like F is capable of sleeping relatively late in the mornings...embrace it! The only reason I worry about a late bedtime is that Munchkin just never sleeps in very late. I'm glad you had a good outing! :thumbup:

I only care about SS because it's the only way he'll go to sleep now. If he falls asleep nursing he usually gets upset when I transfer him, and there's no way to transfer him asleep. I think at daycare they rock him and transfer him asleep but he won't let me rock him. :shrug: Also in general I care about it because he tends to sleep better the more awake he is when he goes into bed, but that doesn't seem to have been true of the past couple weeks.

Bababas, if you can extend a short nap then I would do it, but if not, don't worry about it. Plenty of babies that age nap for only 30-40 minutes (mine still does sometimes and there's no way to extend his naps). You may need a fourth nap on those days, which is fine. The important thing (IMO) is to preserve the wake times, and also if possible the total daytime sleep (not too much, not too little). I hope that helps. Good luck! :flower: I hope those teeth come in soon, we're waiting for some here too!!


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## stephie_corin

SE good luck with the next 24 hours! If Cully nurses but isn't properly asleep I just hold him and jiggle him until he falls asleep. I know you said he won't let you rock him and you'd prefer to keep him SS so this probably doesn't help you. You're stuck in a funny place where WIO isn't really an option (because you can't help him all the way to sleep) and sleep training isn't an option. I'd just keep responding as sensitively as possible, which I'm sure you are already doing. You're a wonderful mummy and Munchkin is lucky to have you. This WILL pass eventually and you guys will get back on track.

Polaris, how is Thomas going with his nap? Is he still in with daddy or is he back in his own room? How was last night with Clara?

Bababas, try to keep a flexible approach to bedtime if you can. If LO takes short naps, just put him down earlier to bed. Good luck! In my opinion it's not bad to breastfeed him back to sleep. I do this for most naps!

Gaia, I'm glad you had a great day! F's naps sound terrible so I'm glad he was an angel for you! Lol! Maybe you can try out your new sleep starve approach tonight! Although a nap at 5 might mean a late bedtime?! I hope the evening goes smoothly for you sweetie.

Melly, sorry you are having tough nights.

Thanks for all the advice on cloth diapers. I'll try washing every second day and see how we go. DH was watching me this morning as I put Cully's nappy on and he didn't even blink when I waved the fleece liner in his direction... I guess that nice little rectangle doesn't remotely resemble the jumper it once was! I'll come clean on holiday when he's drinking a beverage on the beach. 

Our sleep was pretty bad. DH is getting about 3-5 hours sleep a night because of work. We are both in survival mode at the moment. The end is in sight though so I'm staying positive!

No teeth here, unbelievably. I think Cully will only ever have two teeth and will be teething when he's 40 at this rate.


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## stephie_corin

Amy - how are things with you and Chloe?


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## AmyS

Stephie - I bet your vacation travel will go so much better than you think it will. How exciting! Hopefully you can get some good relaxation while you're away! How are the cloth diapers coming? Do you like them better? 

Polaris - Great news with Clara sleeping for so long on her own! That's amazing! 

SE - In my opinion, WIO means doing whatever you feel Munchkin needs at the time. Whether that's boob, or soothing like he's 6 weeks old again, I'd do whatever feels right. This all seems related, don't you think? Teething (possibly), developmental, and daycare changes? He's probably just needing you more! (Haha, I read down more, and I see Polaris has said the same thing.)

Gaia - I've been sneaking in a late nap with Chloe too if her naps have been crap in the day because then she won't hardly make it past 6pm, and then the night seems to end up awful!
________________

We are still in the crib, thank goodness! Saturday night was not a good night though. She was very unsettled all night. And I have no idea why! Teething maybe?? 

Last night was better, but she was still very restless. I picked her up and rocked her for a few minutes at 10:15pm, and then she would move around and cry out periodically the rest of the night. I would just get out of bed, and then she would fall back to sleep on her own. 

At the start of the night, I have found that if she doesn't fall asleep on the bottle, I can't rock her to sleep. She has to roll around in her crib with her lovey to get comfortable to sleep, so I end up putting her down. If she cries, I pat her back, and she usually falls asleep quickly. I'm not sure if this is progress or not. I feel bad that I can't soothe her to sleep anymore.


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## gaiagirl

Omg, never doing a late nap again. Our evening was HORRIBLE. Didn't help that our house was literally baking hot. He would NOT settle and got overtired, ugh. Rough.

Night was actually fine because he was exhausted, but GETTING him to sleep was a nightmare.

8:30am...guess I have to wake him up again!


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## bababas

thank you everybody. lets see how tonight is.

yesterday we went to grill for dinner at in laws. so he had a short nap in the car over there at 5. and another on the way home at 7pm

but he was sleepy 8.30pm so i put him down.

i didnt put him in the crip but in my bed. and he went to sleep fine.

he woke 23:00 coz he was coughing and wanted me. then his usual 0:30. 3:30. 5:30 and then bit grumpy after that til 7am due to teething. but slept on the boob kind of. he wants me as his pacifier. oh well, as long as it keeps us sleeping. if i try the pacifier he wakes angry and it takes more time to calm him. 

im happy that at least now he does 0:30-3:30, coz the bad thing that was happening is 0:30-1:30 or 2:30. 

so in that sense it is an improvement. what you think? bad or good?

i feel good. so i guess i got enough sleep lol. 

about putting him down 8pm. im a bit scared coz ds1 we put him down first always. but then he is so noisy. til he falls asleep. if we put lo down first. not sure, i think ds1 will wake him. so we do ds1 first always first so OH and I help each other with the too. 

cant write more.... ds1 is jelous of me being on computer
hehe


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## seaweed eater

Hugs, friends!!! :hugs: :hugs: Gaia and Stephie, sorry to hear about your struggles! I guess "embrace it" was poor advice, huh, Gaia? :haha:

Stephie, hang in there, this is almost over and soon you will all be relaxing on the beach!! :hugs: One day those teeth will just be there and all you'll think is, "Of course they are." :p Thank you for your kind words. You articulated much better than I've been able to do why this has been a confusing time. I hope I'm being sensitive but it's just impossible to know the right way to respond sometimes. Sigh.
Hope all is well otherwise!

Amy, I know what you mean about its being weird not to be able to soothe them anymore. That's precisely why WIO has been tricky this time around (as Stephie expressed better than I did). I want to provide the comfort he needs but I also don't want to get in his way. He hates it when I pat him so I can't do that to calm him either -- he just needs to do it himself! Even though it's new, please don't feel badly. You just have an independent little girl, and you're learning about what works best for her. :thumbup:

I tried to respond a little more quickly last night and I think at the very least it didn't make things worse. What it did help with, I think, was getting him back to sleep 5:15-6. I think he wakes himself up too much if I let him struggle at that time, but I don't usually feel I can go to him any more quickly since I want to keep my responding extremely consistent. But today he did go back to sleep, and those extra 45 minutes help! And now he's taking a long nap!! I really hope this helps him have a better day today.

I could swear we are in acute teething territory again, though I've never once been right about that. TWO weeks ago, one of his daycare teachers said, with respect to his TOP teeth, "Hopefully those will come through tonight or tomorrow and he'll feel better" :rofl:


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## polaris

SE - I totally understand your difficulty in wanting to do whatever you can to soothe him but at the same time giving him space to fall asleep himself. Thomas was totally like this, the only way he would fall asleep was self-settling and actually he wouldn't fall asleep when we were in the same room as him. So I had to go in and soothe him or nurse him or whatever, then put him back in the cot and leave the room, listen to see if he was settling, then if not, go back in and repeat until he settled. And actually also this same issue was partly why I ended up giving up on the cot with Clara too because she wanted to self-settle but as soon as I put her in the cot she would be wide awake standing up at the bars crying so it just wasn't working well because I was having to pick her back up and resettle her too many times and it was just draining.

Bababas, I think it is really hard to co-ordinate everything when you've got two kids to take into account. Just on a practical point, have you tried white noise in baby's room, I find that it works wonders to drown out general toddler screaming/playing/etc. 

Gaia :hugs: It is roasting hot here too and it's definitely harder for them to settle to sleep I think. (It is 27 degrees in Clara's room this evening and that is with the window wide open) Maybe just go with a later bedtime and later wake-up time for the moment if that is what is suiting him?

Amy - we have those random bad nights too for no apparent reason. Although I think they are still more frequent than the good nights so maybe it would be more accurate to say that we have random good nights! That's brilliant that she is still in the crib though and it sounds like she is working hard at learning to self-settle. I do think that is progress. Clara does a lot of rolling around trying to settle herself and I must admit that I am guilty at times of just sticking a boob into her mouth because I want her to go to sleep quickly instead of rolling around for 45 minutes!

Stephie - hope all is well with you after your crazy day today. :hugs:

AFM, Clara is back to usual pattern of waking frequently all night after her amazing six hour stretch the other night. It's sooo hot here at the moment. We are having really busy days and I always think she's going to sleep well but so far we haven't had a repeat of the long stretch.


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## mellyboo

Thanks for the replys girls ! Hope everyone has a good nights sleep tonight .. Jords actually went to bed on her normal time tonight but it was actually normal outside today so it's not to hot in here!


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## seaweed eater

Munchkin refused his afternoon nap today. They tried for over two hours. He didn't even nap in the car on the way home. Obviously part of me is freaking out, but I'm reminding myself that he's strong and resilient, and we're going to get through this!

Bababas, I think we cross posted earlier, sorry I missed your post! Honestly if he's resettling quickly at night it sounds like he is getting enough sleep, and if you feel good despite all the wakings then you are doing fine. :thumbup: Put him down later if you need to in order to accommodate your DS1. You have the constraints you have! Just do your best with the WTs. So for example, if you want him down around 8:30 try to end his last nap around 6:30 (give or take). Etc.

Polaris, I'm sorry you haven't had any more long stretches. I hope you do soon, and that the weather gets better! :hugs:


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## gaiagirl

SE yes you will! 

Today: short nap at 10, short nap at 2. Bed at 6:45...so far going amazingly well compared to last night! But of course there's time for tonight to turn to sh........


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## stephie_corin

I'll be back later to respond to everyone. Just checking in. Sorry for the downer but we had a horrible, stressful afternoon due to circumstances beyond my control. As a result C went to bed 5 hours after last nap, and refused all feeds in that time because we were out of the house. Overtiredness = up every 45 minutes! I can't believe how real and immediate the effects of overtiredness were on his night sleep! Even in my delirious state I can see this is actually quite interesting!

Will catch you all later today xxx


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## expatttc

Hi ladies,

Thanks to Polaris for bringing me over to this thread :hugs: 
I'm exhausted! Sound familiar! Trust me, normally I am optimistic and a happy camper, and positive, but this has been two months - TWO MONTHS of my little one (now six months old) not sleeping more than 1.5 - 2 hours at a stretch through the night, waking to feed, and be picked up. I'm knackered.

The background:

-Breastfed, started solids just as she turned 6 months, just on 2 small meals of fruit/veg purees per day
-Feeds to sleep (I know, this needs to stop...the No Cry Sleep Solution is what we have tried to manage this, but it's NOT working)
-Now wakes crying, used to wake talking
-Takes 3 naps per day, about 45 minutes to 1 hour each
-Goes down around 7 at night after an hour long routine of cuddle/dancing, bath with Mommy or Daddy, massage with Daddy, book with Daddy, feed and cuddle with Mommy, asleep in arms then into crib
-Crib is in our room, can't be moved due to security and noise
-Longest stretch of sleep is 3 hours, which happens about every 3-4 nights. 
-DH tends to sleep through the night so it is me doing the waking and soothing
-No teeth yet but they are imminent -- though I have thought this for the past two months...
-Working on crawling, but she's been on the edge of milestones (working on sitting, then sitting, on rolling over, then rolling, etc. for the past two months)...
-Not up for crying it out...

That's it, that's all, my extended happiness from across oceans awaits those who can help......


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## stephie_corin

Ok, I'm back! 

Amy, I am loving cloth. I wish we made the switch sooner. It's fun and the diapers are so cute! It's tough squeezing C's big belly into them sometimes :) don't feel bad you can't soothe Chloe to sleep! I think that's a great sign that she's learning independent sleep!

Gaia, I'm so sorry you're evening was so horrible!!! Late naps are annoying. I hope today is going better for you! Try and stay cool in your 'heat wave' ;) joking ...
I'm sure it's very hot! Do they build houses with AC in Canada? It's not common in Australia, even though summers can get really hot. In Dubai, every building has AC! We live in it year round (which probably isn't a good thing!). I see naps today were good with a nice early bedtime! Yay! 

Bababas, that sounds like things are improving slightly! I'm pleased for you!

SE, it sounds like things are getting a little bit better? At least naps are improving! I've got my fingers crossed for you tonight! When C was waking early I found I had to respond quickly and get him back to sleep by any means as soon as possible or he was up for the day. I'm glad you got an extra 45 minutes! Oh I just saw your second post - wow, no nap! How was your night? I understand why you would be freaking out but honestly, you are right... Munchkin is strong and resilient. I think these babies are tougher than we give them credit for! 

Polaris, I have faith she'll do a long stretch again soon! The heat makes it so hard to sleep. And I imagine you guys also don't routinely build houses with AC - you're probably really well equipped for the long cold winters!


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## stephie_corin

expatttc said:


> Hi ladies,
> 
> Thanks to Polaris for bringing me over to this thread :hugs:
> I'm exhausted! Sound familiar! Trust me, normally I am optimistic and a happy camper, and positive, but this has been two months - TWO MONTHS of my little one (now six months old) not sleeping more than 1.5 - 2 hours at a stretch through the night, waking to feed, and be picked up. I'm knackered.
> 
> The background:
> 
> -Breastfed, started solids just as she turned 6 months, just on 2 small meals of fruit/veg purees per day
> -Feeds to sleep (I know, this needs to stop...the No Cry Sleep Solution is what we have tried to manage this, but it's NOT working)
> -Now wakes crying, used to wake talking
> -Takes 3 naps per day, about 45 minutes to 1 hour each
> -Goes down around 7 at night after an hour long routine of cuddle/dancing, bath with Mommy or Daddy, massage with Daddy, book with Daddy, feed and cuddle with Mommy, asleep in arms then into crib
> -Crib is in our room, can't be moved due to security and noise
> -Longest stretch of sleep is 3 hours, which happens about every 3-4 nights.
> -DH tends to sleep through the night so it is me doing the waking and soothing
> -No teeth yet but they are imminent -- though I have thought this for the past two months...
> -Working on crawling, but she's been on the edge of milestones (working on sitting, then sitting, on rolling over, then rolling, etc. for the past two months)...
> -Not up for crying it out...
> 
> That's it, that's all, my extended happiness from across oceans awaits those who can help......

Hi and welcome :)

We are going through the same thing but We are up to 4.5 months here. Our situations are very similar and I deal with all night wakings at the moment. Chronic sleep deprivation is tough! 

I think you will get lots of good tips here from all the sleep deprived mammas. However, I just want to preface my reply by telling you sometimes babies are just bad sleepers - I've tried many thing and we have a pretty perfect day time routine, however night wakings remain frequent. Sleep training isn't a good fit with us, so we are just waiting it out. You'll see some of the mammas are also WIO and others have tried different forms of sleep training, so we can give you lots of support and advice between us :)

Are you familiar with 'wake times'? It's basically an approach to day sleep where you put LO down for a nap based on an approximate time since last wake up. I think most of us are practicing variations of this approach. It's helpful but you do need to watch the clock. I would be tempted, if I were you, to increase wake times and drop to 2 naps. When I first switched I did 2.5, 3.25 and 3.5 hours between wake up and naps. You want to aim for 9-10 hours awake time and put LO down roughly 12 hours before natural wake time. You might struggle with short naps for a while but stick with it and naps should start to lengthen.

There are other sleep training techniques other than cry it out if you are interested in trying these. The basic premise is that you break the sleep associations in the hope baby learns to self settle.

- do you want to experiment with sleep training?
- can you lie down with LO for naps to catch up on sleep?
- it looks like you're an expat - me too. I know how tough it is being away from your support network. Do you have anyone to help?

Let us know the general approach you'd like to take and I'm sure you will get some helpful advice!

Best of luck x


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## gaiagirl

Lol, nope same story. Slept from 6:45-7:30. Then back in there I went for 30min and got him back to sleep only for him to wake up 10 min after I left. Then I tried for another 40min as he was happily crawling around and wanting to play.

So out he came to the den, we hung out and he fell asleep on me at 9:30 and then of course slept like a rock. It's not 8am and I am about to wake him up. 

&#9728;&#128540;&#128151;What a crazy kid!

I wouldn't care THAT much except I want some time to myself!!!!!!!!!!!


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## stephie_corin

Shame, Gaia! You're obviously way too much fun and F can't stand to be away from you! It sounds mean but could you wake him earlier (7?) then maybe he would conk out at 830 PM and you'd get an hour or two?


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## kissesandhugs

Okay I'm finally joining this thread. LO's sleep used to be terrible, would take forever for him to nurse to sleep, then he was up every hour if not more. Now he goes down somewhat easy and he's only up 2-4 times a night which is alright but I am desperate for him to self settle. I wish I could just lay him down and have him fall asleep without a fight and sttn!!!! Can I have help PLEASE?! I've tried CC a few times but something ALWAYS comes up. Teething, sick. 

Now it's really hot in our apartment so we sleep in the living room since we only have an AC in there and the air doesn't reach the bedroom. What do I do in a situation like this? He has a pack and play but it's in the living room with us which makes it terribly hard bc he'll stand up and just stare and cry. Advice? please? :nope:

eta: He's coming up on a year old and I didn't plan on nursing past 1, at this point I'll never be done nursing. No special reason just personal preference.


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## gaiagirl

Lol Stephie that requires me waking up on my own by choice! Hahahahahah yah I know I should...

It's also soooo hard to wake him when he's so peacefully sleeping! I'm conflicted about that!

Kissesandhugs - No real advice because that sounds pretty good to me, lol. No but really, I can't offer much as I believe self settling to be a milestone that some reach as late as 2/3 years. If you are going to stop nursing soon though, you might want to try and gently move towards not nursing to sleep (not sure if you are?) so that you aren't left without that tool!


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## kissesandhugs

gaiagirl said:


> Lol Stephie that requires me waking up on my own by choice! Hahahahahah yah I know I should...
> 
> It's also soooo hard to wake him when he's so peacefully sleeping! I'm conflicted about that!
> 
> Kissesandhugs - No real advice because that sounds pretty good to me, lol. No but really, I can't offer much as I believe self settling to be a milestone that some reach as late as 2/3 years. If you are going to stop nursing soon though, you might want to try and gently move towards not nursing to sleep (not sure if you are?) so that you aren't left without that tool!

I have been trying to NOT nurse to sleep but it is impossible bc he constantly roots around. It's been getting better but I have to practically hold him down and rock and sing for a verrrry long time until he finally falls asleep. During the night though, forget about it he will ONLY nurse back to sleep. He can go on cows milk soon so I'm not sure if I should give him a sippy to fall asleep with? Just seems like switching to another bad habit?


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## daneuse27

Hey kissesandhugs, I've had a similar issue with my daughter. I wanted to stop nursing close to the 1 year mark, and she was still nursing to sleep so I had to put a stop to that before I could even think about weaning.

Do you use white noise, a dark room, or a very strict bedtime routine? Ive been doing this, and I find night times to be the easiest. I put her in bed awake, give her a dummy, and she often falls asleep before my eyes in the crib (this has only been going on for a few days.) For naps, is a little harder, as its daylight so I usually cuddle with her and give her the dummy and then when her eyes are closed, i put her down (trying to do it little bit more awake each time.) Ive been told that consistency is best with this and that they get it eventually.

And I realize the dummy could be another bad habit, but since she only uses it for falling asleep, i think its a good transition from the boob to nothing. Shes reluctant to take it at first, but I just persist until she does. 

Im no expert at all, and not sure what you've tried already but just wanted to offer whats working for me.


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## kissesandhugs

daneuse27 said:


> Hey kissesandhugs, I've had a similar issue with my daughter. I wanted to stop nursing close to the 1 year mark, and she was still nursing to sleep so I had to put a stop to that before I could even think about weaning.
> 
> Do you use white noise, a dark room, or a very strict bedtime routine? Ive been doing this, and I find night times to be the easiest. I put her in bed awake, give her a dummy, and she often falls asleep before my eyes in the crib (this has only been going on for a few days.) For naps, is a little harder, as its daylight so I usually cuddle with her and give her the dummy and then when her eyes are closed, i put her down (trying to do it little bit more awake each time.) Ive been told that consistency is best with this and that they get it eventually.
> 
> And I realize the dummy could be another bad habit, but since she only uses it for falling asleep, i think its a good transition from the boob to nothing. Shes reluctant to take it at first, but I just persist until she does.
> 
> Im no expert at all, and not sure what you've tried already but just wanted to offer whats working for me.


We have a bedtime routine and I use a dark room, usually no white noise besides me singing softly or shushing. He doesn't take a pacifier anymore and hasn't since 6 months. I honestly think it would be much better if he did but he absolutely refuses it. I even tried about a month ago when I was at the end of my rope and he completely refused :nope:


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## gaiagirl

Kissesandhugs - Yah, honestly I am a bit terrified to try and deal with night time without nursing, since mine won't take a pacifier and I am not comfortable with anything but BM or water at night for dental health!

It's a tough one. Dr Jay Gordon has a gentle night weaning method designed for 12+ months (actually designed for bedsharers but I'm sure could be used for others too). You could try first eliminating the initial nurse to sleep and then once he's used to that try JGs night weaning?

Possibly after night weaning he may not wake those 2-4 times, although its not a guarantee that babies who don't eat at night STTN!


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## seaweed eater

Oh Stephie :hugs: every 45 minutes! That might be interesting but it also sounds dreadfully exhausting!! I really hope you had a restful day.

Expat, I'm sorry you have had to find your way here. :hugs: Stephie asked some good questions. In general it would be helpful to know what your daily routine is at this point. Dropping to two naps is something you could consider at this age. Does your LO go down easily at bedtime or does she fight it?

Gaia, I hate to say it but I agree with Stephie, I think waking him from a late nap will really help!!! Also, can you wake up early and have your time to yourself in the morning before F is awake instead of expecting it in the evening before he's asleep? I know it's easier to stay up late, but if the biggest issue for you is not having time to yourself, I wonder whether that could be a way around it.

Kissesandhugs, sorry to see you here :hugs: what exactly has happened when you've done CC? Can you give us some details on that? If you're willing to sleep train I think we should be able to find some way for your LO to sleep better and not need to nurse. I'd also like to help you brainstorm some ways you could sleep in a separate room from LO or at least give him his own space. Could you use fans to help get the cool air to other rooms of your house? Or if not, maybe use some sort of partition so that he can't see you? Also, white noise might actually help particularly if you are in the same space, because if he's sensitive to noise it will help mask the other sounds in the room. I think giving a sippy cup with cow's milk before bed is not recommended because it can increase the risk of tooth decay. (Breastmilk is different because of its antibacterial properties.) So I wouldn't count on that as a solution. As I said, if you are willing to sleep train I am hopeful that we can find something that will help you.

We actually had a reasonable night after the terrifying 8-hour WT. I mean reasonable compared to this week -- my standards have shifted. :haha: After waking at 45 minutes he slept over 5 hours, and he woke up when I stepped on a creaky floorboard on the way to the bathroom, so perhaps he could have gone longer! After that he woke up approximately a zillion times, I didn't bother keeping track. But altogether over 11 hours of sleep, which is unusual, and up at a reasonable time.

I think it made such a difference that I managed to sleep a 3 hour stretch and wake up on my own. Getting to wake up on my own instead of being woken by crying seems to increase the restfulness of a given stretch of sleep by at least 50%, maybe 100%. Know what I mean?

Also we have some definite progress on teething. I can't tell whether the tooth has actually cut yet, but if not, it at least looks very different from yesterday!


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## kissesandhugs

seaweed eater said:


> Kissesandhugs, sorry to see you here :hugs: what exactly has happened when you've done CC? Can you give us some details on that? If you're willing to sleep train I think we should be able to find some way for your LO to sleep better and not need to nurse. I'd also like to help you brainstorm some ways you could sleep in a separate room from LO or at least give him his own space. Could you use fans to help get the cool air to other rooms of your house? Or if not, maybe use some sort of partition so that he can't see you? Also, white noise might actually help particularly if you are in the same space, because if he's sensitive to noise it will help mask the other sounds in the room. I think giving a sippy cup with cow's milk before bed is not recommended because it can increase the risk of tooth decay. (Breastmilk is different because of its antibacterial properties.) So I wouldn't count on that as a solution. As I said, if you are willing to sleep train I am hopeful that we can find something that will help you.

CC was going really well for the most part, at the initial lay down. But during the night was horrible, we were practically doing CIO and we both work full time so it was extremely stressful and I unfortunetly gave up. I've been wanting to do it again but like I said he's ALWAYS teething or sick :wacko: I think he's done teething now. I'm going to try to figure something out sometime so he can't see us, we usually have the TV on as well so I think we're going to keep that off, dark room, we have a seahorse that we used the first attempt that seemed to work that I can use, and maybe "more" of a bedtime routine. We don't read him a book so it's not much but maybe I'll start doing boob, bath, book, bed? Should I just cut the boob part out though? And I don't want to do cio even though people recommend it at an older age like his? And what should I do about him standing up repeatedly?


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## seaweed eater

How long did you try CC each time? I know it is really hard to hear them cry so much :hugs: if you're sleep training, I think it's wise expect sleep to get worse, for all of you, before it gets better.

I think it's up to you whether to cut out the boob part of bedtime routine. If it's not last, it won't be the way he's getting to sleep, so it won't be as necessary and you'll have more flexibility with it. When would you feed him before bed if it were not part of the routine? I think it would be a good idea, at least at first, to make sure he is full reasonably soon before bed. That way, if he's crying, you won't wonder whether it's because he's hungry, which will free you to be more consistent.

About standing up, does he know how to get down by himself? If not, or if he's just learning, practicing during the day could help. If he should have no problem getting down safely but just isn't doing it, I would just leave him. It might make the wait longer (unfortunately) but part of learning to SS is learning to get himself into the right position to go to sleep. Depending on the sleep training method you are using, if it's one where you are staying in the same room as him (and he knows you are there), you could encourage him verbally to lie down. But there's no reason to do it for him if he can do it himself.


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## kissesandhugs

seaweed eater said:


> How long did you try CC each time? I know it is really hard to hear them cry so much :hugs: if you're sleep training, I think it's wise expect sleep to get worse, for all of you, before it gets better.
> 
> I think it's up to you whether to cut out the boob part of bedtime routine. If it's not last, it won't be the way he's getting to sleep, so it won't be as necessary and you'll have more flexibility with it. When would you feed him before bed if it were not part of the routine? I think it would be a good idea, at least at first, to make sure he is full reasonably soon before bed. That way, if he's crying, you won't wonder whether it's because he's hungry, which will free you to be more consistent.
> 
> About standing up, does he know how to get down by himself? If not, or if he's just learning, practicing during the day could help. If he should have no problem getting down safely but just isn't doing it, I would just leave him. It might make the wait longer (unfortunately) but part of learning to SS is learning to get himself into the right position to go to sleep. Depending on the sleep training method you are using, if it's one where you are staying in the same room as him (and he knows you are there), you could encourage him verbally to lie down. But there's no reason to do it for him if he can do it himself.

Okay thanks for the advice :) yes he can get down perfectly fine by himself so I'll just let him be. Coming up to a year, I would just feed him dinner and hope that would work for the night but makes me nervous doing that. I'll just keep boob in with the routine for now!


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## seaweed eater

I think it's pretty common to keep giving them milk or some other kind of snack after dinner :) it just can't be the very last thing because you will need to brush teeth afterward.


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## AmyS

SE - I understand what you're saying now about being hard to WIO!! I hope you have figured out a happy medium for Munchkin. Glad you got some solid sleep, and yippee for teething progress!!!! 

Polaris - Do you think the heat is causing the restless nights? We've been having the same thing here, and that's all I can think of that would be causing it. Besides for the usual teething.

Stephie - Sorry for your rough afternoon! I hope you managed to get some sleep during the night! 

expatttc - I still feed to sleep too (8 months old). I don't think this is such a bad thing, based on my own LO's sleep story!

Gaia - I agree with Stephie, you must be too much fun!

kissesandhugs - Sorry, I'm not much help! I'm a sleep newbie too, and trying to slowly figure this out! The ladies on this thread have great ideas though!
___________________

If our nights keep going okay, I need to start working on our naps!!! I'm still holding her for all naps. How do I stop doing this? Start with one nap per day?? I think it will be really hard to do this when I'm only really home with her for naps on the weekend. And then my mom holds her for naps too when she watches her one day a week. What can I say, we like to cuddle!!


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## seaweed eater

Amy, why stop holding her for naps if it's working well for you? :) Anyway, if you do want to stop, I wouldn't do just one nap per day. That will seem inconsistent, so you should do the same thing for all of them. Does your mom watch Chloe at your house or at hers? She may be ok with being held for naps by your mom and not by you, especially if it's a different location, or she may not.


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## gaiagirl

Oh I'm definitely not doing late naps anymore! No way! It's just the morning it's hard to wake him. And I would just get up but I don't like him being in my bed alone because its not on the floor and the coffee and TV are downstairs...lol.

I guess I could bite the bullet and just start waking him earlier but I think I will hold off until end of summer for that. I still have 4 months before I need to worry about wakin up early!


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## gaiagirl

(But yes I do realize I am complaining about something and being annoying by not doing anything to help myself, haha)


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## gaiagirl

Amy if you're OK holding then go with it! If not, try transferring her to her bed or yours maybe when she's in a deep sleep. Or my fave, nurse lying down and roll/sneak away!


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## minties

8 month sleep regression is hitting HARD. Ugh.


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## bababas

hi ladies. and thank you for all the help before.

there is one thing that has been happening though. sometimes... he wakes up again 1 hour after i put him down to sleep. any idea what it is. i noticed it happens when he is awake less than 2.5 hrs before bedtime. should i try to keep him up longer? my sleep book says he should be up 3.5hrs at that age before bed time. :shrug: he has been up 3 hours the other days coz of short naps, then i have two kids to put down. those days he doesnt wake up 1 hour after i put him to sleep. he only looks for boob though and continues sleeping then.

im usually off to the pool then. OH has no success holding him to sleep with the pacifier, which usually he can do for naps. but never for his sleep time.


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## AmyS

SE, Gaia - I love holding her for naps! But I think it makes daycare naps harder on her.


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## seaweed eater

Sorry Minties, what's going on? :hugs:

Amy - that makes sense. I'm sure she will do great with naps if you start working on those!

Bababas, what book says 3.5 hours? That seems really long to me for 4 months. But if he sleeps better when he's awake longer than 2.5, then keep him awake longer than 2.5! We're all about going with what works :thumbup:


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## stephie_corin

SE, you have a TOP tooth?!?! I'm so glad thing are getting better! And I completely identify with what you say about waking more rested when you wake up on your own. What's an adult sleep cycle? 90 minutes? I remember being advised by a lecturer at uni to take 90 minute naps - no shorter and no longer or you'd wake mid sleep cycle and feel rubbish! 

Amy, fantastic news things are going ok still! I'm always interested in other people's definitions of 'ok'! Have daycare said she is struggling with naps now or is this your mummy instincts? SE said to me once that daycare naps are done completely differently to at home naps for her Munchkin and it seems to work ok - she might have something to add further. I agree with SE and Gaia - if you like the cuddles AND daycare naps are going ok, I'd stick with it. I love snuggling for naps and seeing that big grin when C wakes up.

Gaia, are you back at work when F is 1? Me too! Are you putting him in daycare? Have you thought about how you will do naps etc when you are at work? It's a scary prospect - I'm glad we will be doing it at the same time and can bounce ideas off each other!

Minties, so sorry! Hope all is ok! Could this be coinciding with the stopping swaddling?

Bababas, I agree! Go with what works! Although you said then you have two to put down? Polaris also has this issue. Can you play around with your oldest's routine and have them go down earlier or later?

Our night was better than the night before (phew!) but he is still waking every 45 minutes at the start of the night and has been all week. I'm sure sure sure he is teething, but - as he is the slowest teether in the world - I can't give pain meds every night. This sounds daft but can I do anything to help his teeth come through or is it just a waiting game? I'm sure the answer is 'no' but I really feel for him. We got a two hour stretch last night... I so badly wish his sleep would improve but I think until some of these teeth pop through it's not going to happen.

Or should I try to shake up our day routine?!?


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## gaiagirl

Stephie - I am going to start working slooowly after 12 months. A day or two with Dad (he will do a few Saturdays and take a weekday off) then my mom will do one day for awhile. Ill probably find a part time 2/3 day daycare spot for January hopefully! Im nervous for sure, but hope the slow transition helps! Honestly the thought of him being tired and distressed and me not being there makes me sick. I am so avoiding thinking about it right now.

It does help teeth come through do gently push on the gum but its not comfortable for them so not sure it's worth it!? Also a cold washcloth in freezer...I soak it in Clove tea first.


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## polaris

Good morning everyone!

Wow it is still sooo hot here! 27 degrees in Clara's room last night. It is so hard for her to get settled in that heat although I don't think she's waking more often than usual, it's definitely making bedtime harder. Thomas is finding it hard to settle to sleep too. We are really not used to this weather - I think the last time we had a summer like this was 1995! No AC here - but I am thinking about buying a fan for Clara's room, not even sure if that would help much but worth a try.

Expatttc - welcome to the thread, I'm glad you found us. I agree with the others that it depends what you are comfortable with to a large extent. For example, a gradual withdrawal approach might be helpful if you want to try to encourage self-settling but continue to provide the reassurance of your presence. This is where you put them down in the cot awake but sit by the side of the bed to comfort them but preferably without picking them up. I think this would be likely to still involve crying but at least you are there with them if you are not comfortable leaving her to cry on her own. Or there is the crying in arms method where you just stop whatever you have been doing to get them to sleep e.g. rocking/feeding but just sit and hold them until they fall asleep but don't rock or feed or jiggle etc. even if they cry. Some babies do better with greater physical contact whereas for others this is too stimulating and they will do better falling asleep in their own space. 

Gaia - I think you might have to just accept the later bedtimes if you don't want to get him up earlier in the mornings. I do know how hard it is not to have time to oneself. Thomas is up until 9ish now because I have gone back to letting him nap, and while I would love to have him in bed by 7.30, it has helped to just accept that this is not possible at the moment due to my choice to let him nap during the day (which does give me a break during the day and also a much happier child!). It's still OK to have a bit of a moan though!

Kissesandhugs - I think I would be tempted to try night weaning too. Although honestly your LO's sleep sounds pretty good (it's all relative to what we are used to!!) I wouldn't cut out boob before bed though, just don't make it the last thing in the routine. It's normal to keep the bedtime feed for a good while longer.

SE - so glad that you had a better night and that the tooth is finally (almost?) through!

Amy - I wouldn't worry too much about naps if you enjoy holding her for naps - unless you think it is actually causing problems for daycare?

Sorry have to go, will finish post later


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## bababas

i everybody. i definitely have to make him be awake longer before his bedtime. he was kind of having awake eyes after his 2am feed. and woke up 6am! i made him cuddle a bit til 6.30, but the minute i moved he woke up :dohh:

this sleeping book i was talking about is an icelandic book from a sleeping nurse here in iceland. 

another thing.... in iceland the sun does not set right now... during sumer time. so this could be another weird factor. FOR ME at least. i am not used to it! everytime i go to the loo in the night, and i see the sun i feel like, ey it is daytime! and i have a difficult time going back to sleep.


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## kettle28

Hello!!

Abandoned all routine!! Awake times now are until he gets grizzly, then he'll either play a couple of minutes, have a dummy and drop off (no tears at all!) or fed to sleep, or if we're out and about he'll snooze in car/pram only if he's tired! 

Bedtime used to be hours of tears, leading to car ride as he'd be so wound up, yesterday he was awake 4hrs after his last nap, was grizzly for last hour but when ready, popped him in cot, dummy and 2mins later, snoring his head off!! 

Laughed out loud when someone (can't remember who sorry!) suggested on here that he was sleeping too much in day, give him longer awake times!! But persevered through grizzles for first couple of days and now he's used to longer awake and going down like a dream compared to just a week ago!! 
Thankyou!!!! Xx


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## Noelle610

Bababas, ditch that book - sounds like a recipe for an overtired child. If you're looking for some good sleep reading, I'd suggest one of these books by an "expert". All different perspectives, but all research-based and current:

"Healthy Sleep Habits, Happy Child" - Marc Weissbluth

"Goodnight, Sleep Tight" - Kim West (Sleep Lady)

"Solve Your Child's Sleep Problems" - Richards Ferber

"Sleeping Through the Night" - Jodi Mindell


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## bababas

kettle28 said:


> Hello!!
> 
> Abandoned all routine!! Awake times now are until he gets grizzly, then he'll either play a couple of minutes, have a dummy and drop off (no tears at all!) or fed to sleep, or if we're out and about he'll snooze in car/pram only if he's tired!
> 
> Bedtime used to be hours of tears, leading to car ride as he'd be so wound up, yesterday he was awake 4hrs after his last nap, was grizzly for last hour but when ready, popped him in cot, dummy and 2mins later, snoring his head off!!
> 
> Laughed out loud when someone (can't remember who sorry!) suggested on here that he was sleeping too much in day, give him longer awake times!! But persevered through grizzles for first couple of days and now he's used to longer awake and going down like a dream compared to just a week ago!!
> Thankyou!!!! Xx

good news that this is working for you :happydance:


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## bababas

Noelle610 said:


> Bababas, ditch that book - sounds like a recipe for an overtired child. If you're looking for some good sleep reading, I'd suggest one of these books by an "expert". All different perspectives, but all research-based and current:
> 
> "Healthy Sleep Habits, Happy Child" - Marc Weissbluth
> 
> "Goodnight, Sleep Tight" - Kim West (Sleep Lady)
> 
> "Solve Your Child's Sleep Problems" - Richards Ferber
> 
> "Sleeping Through the Night" - Jodi Mindell

tanx for the book tips. i will look them up on amazon.


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## kissesandhugs

Yes, I realize my sleep situation is better than most but it's taken almost a year to get here, I think I've done my time lol and that's just the "average" night..meaning 4 out of 7 nights a week he's up 2-3x...other nights it's back to the dreaded 1/2-hourly waking...and at least once a week he's up at 2/3 and up until 6 am when I wake up for work at 7.. And I'm done waking up in the middle of the night...and done with nursing in the middle of the night. 

Still can't bring myself to do CC, I just didn't even try last night. Why is it sooo hard to do it now where as before it was hard but do-able :nope:


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## bababas

i took the example of sleep for a 4 month old and a 6-7 month old from the book. now this actually worked well with ds1. with ds2 i just hardly keep up. like time flies and he is almost 5 months now :shrug:

the white in the graph represents sleep, and green is sleep time.

t means hours.

oh and this is an icelandic book. the day in iceland ends late. people wake up lik 8am to go to work, since it only takes 10 mins to go to work, hence the late bed time. we woke up 7 to go to work when we had to drive ds1 to playschool.
 



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## polaris

Kissesandhugs - I think it is harder in some ways with an older baby because they are so aware of what they want and can really communicate their unhappiness at you trying to change the routine. When I night-weaned my older boy I didn't do CC, I just stopped feeding him at night and tried to comfort him in whatever other ways possible when he woke. He was really angry and just wanted boob but it actually worked like a dream and he got the message really quickly, for us it actually only took one night with a lot of crying and after that he slept through! Not saying it would happen that quickly for you obviously but I think it's definitely worth trying to night wean at this age. I am waiting until Clara is over a year and then I will be working towards night-weaning if her sleep hasn't improved.

Kettle - that's fab that things have improved so much for you! You sound way more relaxed about everything!

Minties, sorry that you need this thread again now, sleep regressions suck!

Stephie :hugs: it has got bad when we are celebrating a two hour stretch. Clara is actually consistently doing 1.5 to 2 hours in the evenings now (usually 2 hours) and to me this is an improvement! Amazing how one's perceptions of good/bad sleep change.


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## Noelle610

bababas said:


> i took the example of sleep for a 4 month old and a 6-7 month old from the book. now this actually worked well with ds1. with ds2 i just hardly keep up. like time flies and he is almost 5 months now :shrug:
> 
> the white in the graph represents sleep, and green is sleep time.
> 
> t means hours.
> 
> oh and this is an icelandic book. the day in iceland ends late. people wake up lik 8am to go to work, since it only takes 10 mins to go to work, hence the late bed time. we woke up 7 to go to work when we had to drive ds1 to playschool.

It's interesting, I was just talking to someone about this. 

Studies have shown that the circadian rhythms of people around the world are shockingly similar. For example, the vast majority of people do best (sleeping most soundly and most restoratively) with a 10pm bedtime regardless of where they live. I'm not sure how the changees in culture, how long it's light out, etc. influence these factors. Weissbluth would aruge that they don't, but I'm not convinced.

Anyway, one of my personal pet-peeves is people saying "all babies are different" in regards to sleep and encouraging moms to "ignore the experts". Sorry, but the current advice of how much a baby should sleep and when they should sleep is based on years and years of research on circadian rhythms and biology. They're not just random guidelines and MOST babies do best if they sleep as recommended.


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## bababas

hi polaris. yes i also find it interesting. i noticed the icelandic babies here have a very late bedtime, 10pm-11pm.

they are shocked to know my sons would always wanna sleep 9pm since birth. (except when they changed to 2 naps they went around 7pm) 

now my friend from italy and her son, is 4 months. no matter what she does he only wants to go down 11pm. and she said it is a real hassle!

do you think it is some kind of inner clock... maybe they inherited the earlier bed time from me lol. icelanders my age go very late to bed. i am an early bird. then again it is really difficult to go to bed in the sumer time with the sun shining outside. i just cant get used to it, even after 12 years living here.


----------



## Noelle610

bababas said:


> hi polaris. yes i also find it interesting. i noticed the icelandic babies here have a very late bedtime, 10pm-11pm.
> 
> they are shocked to know my sons would always wanna sleep 9pm since birth. (except when they changed to 2 naps they went around 7pm)
> 
> now my friend from italy and her son, is 4 months. no matter what she does he only wants to go down 11pm. and she said it is a real hassle!
> 
> do you think it is some kind of inner clock... maybe they inherited the earlier bed time from me lol. icelanders my age go very late to bed. i am an early bird. then again it is really difficult to go to bed in the sumer time with the sun shining outside. i just cant get used to it, even after 12 years living here.

Yes, I do think that plays a part! Staralfur was telling me that circadian rhythms are genetic, so it makes sense. I'm an early to bed/early to rise kind of girl and so is my LO. I would have a hard time adjusting to that schedule also! Right there with you. Just not natural for girls like us, I think.


----------



## bababas

forgot one update. the two hour wake times also made him nap longer. he has been napping now 1.5 hrs always since the 2 hr wake times. usually it was more like 30 mins grumpy kind of thing. and i didnt really know what was going on. but could extend it with BF. but now it seems more in a nice schedule. no wakings in the naps.


----------



## polaris

Noelle610 said:


> bababas said:
> 
> 
> i took the example of sleep for a 4 month old and a 6-7 month old from the book. now this actually worked well with ds1. with ds2 i just hardly keep up. like time flies and he is almost 5 months now :shrug:
> 
> the white in the graph represents sleep, and green is sleep time.
> 
> t means hours.
> 
> oh and this is an icelandic book. the day in iceland ends late. people wake up lik 8am to go to work, since it only takes 10 mins to go to work, hence the late bed time. we woke up 7 to go to work when we had to drive ds1 to playschool.
> 
> It's interesting, I was just talking to someone about this.
> 
> Studies have shown that the circadian rhythms of people around the world are shockingly similar. For example, the vast majority of people do best (sleeping most soundly and most restoratively) with a 10pm bedtime regardless of where they live. I'm not sure how the changees in culture, how long it's light out, etc. influence these factors. Weissbluth would aruge that they don't, but I'm not convinced.
> 
> Anyway, one of my personal pet-peeves is people saying "all babies are different" in regards to sleep and encouraging moms to "ignore the experts". Sorry, but the current advice of how much a baby should sleep and when they should sleep is based on years and years of research on circadian rhythms and biology. They're not just random guidelines and MOST babies do best if they sleep as recommended.Click to expand...

Noelle, I do agree with you and I am really interested in the sleep research and optimal sleep patterns. However since having Clara I have definitely relaxed my beliefs to some extent and embraced the individuality of babies a lot more. Thomas was in many ways a text-book baby with regard to sleep - I wouldn't say that he was a great sleeper but he did well with the expert-endorsed schedules and wake-times and his sleep as a whole seemed to follow the general pattern that is described in sleep books.

Clara is much less textbook in that regard. She sort of does her own thing with regard to sleep. Having said that I am still guided by age-appropriate schedules/wake-times etc. but I find that I have to be a lot more flexible with Clara and things just don't always work as well as they worked for Thomas. 

Having said that I do totally agree that many people are much too quick to say things like "oh I just dropped his nap because he just didn't seem to want to sleep during the day anymore" or "I just keep him up until midnight because that's what works for us" or whatever, because I do agree that in most cases that baby would be better on a more age-appropriate schedule and sometimes it's just parental convenience/preference or lack of awareness. But it's honestly only since having a second child, very different to my first, that I have really genuinely realized that all babies actually are different and what works like a charm for one actually may not be a good fit at all for a different baby. I didn't really fully believe that when I only had one.


----------



## gaiagirl

I agree to a certain extent, but I definitely agonized and stressed over those 'experts' advice WAY too much when F was younger. It seems bizarre to me (and I am a biologist so approaching it largely with human evolution in mind) that we should have to train a baby through great distress to do something that doesn't come naturally. 

I have tried literally EVERYTHING but CIO/CC and my baby just doesn't always follow the 'normal' patterns. But he is extremely happy, healthy, developmentally on track and well rested. Even though he gets only 13 hours average and often goes to be later.

I am a HUGE fan of evidence based information and obviously an advocate for science...but sometimes it's just a bit too much and too black and white. I can't drive myself crazy stressing over his abnormal habits and I am definitely not making him go through major stress to change what is normal for him!

I love having the info and guidelines there for me, but my own instinct and discretion is my most valuable tool :)


----------



## Noelle610

polaris said:


> Noelle610 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bababas said:
> 
> 
> i took the example of sleep for a 4 month old and a 6-7 month old from the book. now this actually worked well with ds1. with ds2 i just hardly keep up. like time flies and he is almost 5 months now :shrug:
> 
> the white in the graph represents sleep, and green is sleep time.
> 
> t means hours.
> 
> oh and this is an icelandic book. the day in iceland ends late. people wake up lik 8am to go to work, since it only takes 10 mins to go to work, hence the late bed time. we woke up 7 to go to work when we had to drive ds1 to playschool.
> 
> It's interesting, I was just talking to someone about this.
> 
> Studies have shown that the circadian rhythms of people around the world are shockingly similar. For example, the vast majority of people do best (sleeping most soundly and most restoratively) with a 10pm bedtime regardless of where they live. I'm not sure how the changees in culture, how long it's light out, etc. influence these factors. Weissbluth would aruge that they don't, but I'm not convinced.
> 
> Anyway, one of my personal pet-peeves is people saying "all babies are different" in regards to sleep and encouraging moms to "ignore the experts". Sorry, but the current advice of how much a baby should sleep and when they should sleep is based on years and years of research on circadian rhythms and biology. They're not just random guidelines and MOST babies do best if they sleep as recommended.Click to expand...
> 
> Noelle, I do agree with you and I am really interested in the sleep research and optimal sleep patterns. However since having Clara I have definitely relaxed my beliefs to some extent and embraced the individuality of babies a lot more. Thomas was in many ways a text-book baby with regard to sleep - I wouldn't say that he was a great sleeper but he did well with the expert-endorsed schedules and wake-times and his sleep as a whole seemed to follow the general pattern that is described in sleep books.
> 
> Clara is much less textbook in that regard. She sort of does her own thing with regard to sleep. Having said that I am still guided by age-appropriate schedules/wake-times etc. but I find that I have to be a lot more flexible with Clara and things just don't always work as well as they worked for Thomas.
> 
> Having said that I do totally agree that many people are much too quick to say things like "oh I just dropped his nap because he just didn't seem to want to sleep during the day anymore" or "I just keep him up until midnight because that's what works for us" or whatever, because I do agree that in most cases that baby would be better on a more age-appropriate schedule and sometimes it's just parental convenience/preference or lack of awareness. But it's honestly only since having a second child, very different to my first, that I have really genuinely realized that all babies actually are different and what works like a charm for one actually may not be a good fit at all for a different baby. I didn't really fully believe that when I only had one.Click to expand...

You know, I think I might believe this because Charlie has been a "textbook" baby in terms of sleep needs! I'm sure that helps. 

What you're describing your last paragraph is what really bothers me... When something different is done for the parent's convenience. I don't really get the baby-led approach when it comes to sleep for an older baby either. Of course your kid would prefer to be awake rather than sleep, it means you're doing your job and he knows mom is fun! It doesn't mean you don't need to be a parent and encourage them to sleep when appropriate. I don't care whether thans 5pm or 9pm, but if it's 2am I think I'd raise an eyebrow ;)


----------



## gaiagirl

Lol, I can definitely agree on that one!


----------



## Noelle610

gaiagirl said:


> I agree to a certain extent, but I definitely agonized and stressed over those 'experts' advice WAY too much when F was younger. It seems bizarre to me (and I am a biologist so approaching it largely with human evolution in mind) that we should have to train a baby through great distress to do something that doesn't come naturally.
> 
> I have tried literally EVERYTHING but CIO/CC and my baby just doesn't always follow the 'normal' patterns. But he is extremely happy, healthy, developmentally on track and well rested. Even though he gets only 13 hours average and often goes to be later.
> 
> I am a HUGE fan of evidence based information and obviously an advocate for science...but sometimes it's just a bit too much and too black and white. I can't drive myself crazy stressing over his abnormal habits and I am definitely not making him go through major stress to change what is normal for him!
> 
> I love having the info and guidelines there for me, but my own instinct and discretion is my most valuable tool :)

It's an interesting perspective. I've always taken the viewpoint that we have to "train" (though I hate that word, I prefer "teach") babies to do a lot of things. Potty training, eating solid foods, etc.

I very much agree with you that too much stress can be placed on following guidelines. My DH still makes fun of me for not wanting to nap Charlie in the swing at 3 months old... I thought I was creating "bad habits" :haha: 

At the end of the day, I think most kids are within a "normal" range and I'd consider 13 hours of sleep a day "good"/"normal". There are outliers though! That's just the way the universe works. I don't doubt that they exist, I just don't think they're as plentiful as parents believe. Does that make sense?


----------



## stephie_corin

Interesting discussion! So glad to be part of this respectful, intelligent and caring group of women.

I'm not sure how I feel about the textbook sleep advice. I follow my wake times religiously, ensure Culver has two good naps, never exceeding two hours for a nap or three hours in total, we always aim for 11-12 hours sleep depending on naps... It seems to work but I wonder how much is just routine. If I did any combination of naps and night sleep every day I'm sure that particular combination would work if the total number of sleep hours tallied up.

I did some reading recently on segmented sleep that was interesting. The idea was that traditionally people would sleep in two blocks, waking for a period in between. The Wikipedia article on it is quite a good summary:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Segmented_sleep

I do agree babies need a lot of sleep but how that sleep is taken is (in my mind) like a pie - it's of a finite size but can be carved up in any number of ways.


----------



## gaiagirl

Totally! And I definitely used to feel the same about having to teach babies to sleep, just like with potty and food and reading etc. Then I had this baby who just does what he wants, lol.

I DO think that when he is older and I can use language as a tool and he can understand that is totally different and I will absolutely be much more 'strict' about routine. Especially because I will have to be with daycare/work etc.

For now, I try my best to guide him to healthy habits but try to just go with it when he is set on his own little schedule. As long as all three of us are able to live with it! And as much as I complain, it is totally doable right now. Just not my fantasy/ideal situation. Hehe.

If only these babies were programmable...


----------



## gaiagirl

Actually, just thinking about that. I don't really teach F to eat, we are doing BLW so really he has figured it all out himself.

And the potty I guess is a modern invention so I guess evolutionarily that is an exception...


----------



## stephie_corin

polaris said:


> Stephie :hugs: it has got bad when we are celebrating a two hour stretch. Clara is actually consistently doing 1.5 to 2 hours in the evenings now (usually 2 hours) and to me this is an improvement! Amazing how one's perceptions of good/bad sleep change.

Thanks Polaris - if we had told our pregnant selves we'd be celebrating two hour stretches at this point I don't think we would have believed it! I hope Clara's 2 hours keeps improving for you!!


----------



## Noelle610

stephie_corin said:


> Interesting discussion! So glad to be part of this respectful, intelligent and caring group of women.
> 
> I'm not sure how I feel about the textbook sleep advice. I follow my wake times religiously, ensure Culver has two good naps, never exceeding two hours for a nap or three hours in total, we always aim for 11-12 hours sleep depending on naps... It seems to work but I wonder how much is just routine. If I did any combination of naps and night sleep every day I'm sure that particular combination would work if the total number of sleep hours tallied up.
> 
> I did some reading recently on segmented sleep that was interesting. The idea was that traditionally people would sleep in two blocks, waking for a period in between. The Wikipedia article on it is quite a good summary:
> 
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Segmented_sleep
> 
> I do agree babies need a lot of sleep but how that sleep is taken is (in my mind) like a pie - it's of a finite size but can be carved up in any number of ways.

I agree - love this group of girls! Room for everyone's opinions in here.

I have read about this too Stephie and it's definitely interesting! As I've said in the past, I don't think a few night wakings are cause of concern. I think excessive wakings can be detrimental to a baby's health and development, BUT... I also think some kids are just no-good, bad, terrible sleepers. I still think they have the same sleep *needs* in terms of bedtime / number of hours as most babies, but I don't necessarily think that means they're not going to need help to get there regardless of the method (sleep training, soothing, whatever). 



gaiagirl said:


> Totally! And I definitely used to feel the same about having to teach babies to sleep, just like with potty and food and reading etc. Then I had this baby who just does what he wants, lol.
> 
> I DO think that when he is older and I can use language as a tool and he can understand that is totally different and I will absolutely be much more 'strict' about routine. Especially because I will have to be with daycare/work etc.
> 
> For now, I try my best to guide him to healthy habits but try to just go with it when he is set on his own little schedule. As long as all three of us are able to live with it! And as much as I complain, it is totally doable right now. Just not my fantasy/ideal situation. Hehe.
> 
> If only these babies were programmable...

I totally agree... It's so hard when you don't "know" if something is wrong. We can often intuit if a baby is in pain from teething or just not wanting to go to sleep because it's not as exciting as playing, but it's normal for moms to question themselves. Really makes it tough.


----------



## gaiagirl

Still thinking about this...lol.

I definitely do a bit of a raised eyebrow when people say their baby just doesn't 'need' to nap or just won't. So I guess that is one place where I think parents need to step in.

Mine wouldn't just spontaneously nap, he had to be coaxed into it. But he NEEDS it!


----------



## Noelle610

gaiagirl said:


> Still thinking about this...lol.
> 
> I definitely do a bit of a raised eyebrow when people say their baby just doesn't 'need' to nap or just won't. So I guess that is one place where I think parents need to step in.
> 
> Mine wouldn't just spontaneously nap, he had to be coaxed into it. But he NEEDS it!

Same here!


----------



## stephie_corin

Noelle610 said:


> gaiagirl said:
> 
> 
> Still thinking about this...lol.
> 
> I definitely do a bit of a raised eyebrow when people say their baby just doesn't 'need' to nap or just won't. So I guess that is one place where I think parents need to step in.
> 
> Mine wouldn't just spontaneously nap, he had to be coaxed into it. But he NEEDS it!
> 
> Same here!Click to expand...

Me three!


----------



## stephie_corin

Bababas, I meant to say, I love Iceland! I can understand how weird it must be for you though trying to get to sleep with the sun up! It must feel a bit like jetlag... but all the time!


----------



## polaris

stephie_corin said:


> Noelle610 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gaiagirl said:
> 
> 
> Still thinking about this...lol.
> 
> I definitely do a bit of a raised eyebrow when people say their baby just doesn't 'need' to nap or just won't. So I guess that is one place where I think parents need to step in.
> 
> Mine wouldn't just spontaneously nap, he had to be coaxed into it. But he NEEDS it!
> 
> Same here!Click to expand...
> 
> Me three!Click to expand...

Yes absolutely, me four! 

Very interesting discussion. Stephie, that is really interesting about the segmented sleep, I will remember that next time Clara has a MOTN party. Maybe I should start praying with her, LOL.


----------



## polaris

stephie_corin said:


> polaris said:
> 
> 
> Stephie :hugs: it has got bad when we are celebrating a two hour stretch. Clara is actually consistently doing 1.5 to 2 hours in the evenings now (usually 2 hours) and to me this is an improvement! Amazing how one's perceptions of good/bad sleep change.
> 
> Thanks Polaris - if we had told our pregnant selves we'd be celebrating two hour stretches at this point I don't think we would have believed it! I hope Clara's 2 hours keeps improving for you!!Click to expand...

I'm so glad I didn't know this when I was pregnant!


----------



## freddie

Thanks for your advice ladies :) Ah, I think I need to log in to this thread more regularly, I can hardly keep up lol! So sorry if I am totally missing things... Very interesting discussion on sleep patterns though and as for the napping thing - I've totally met mums that tell me that their LO doesn't need/ won't nap... Nope my LO wouldn't by choice - he'd love to stay up and play with mummy all day but I know that he definitely needs his naps and I have absolutely worked my butt off to get him to take regular day time naps!! I am actually quite proud of myself as my 20-40 minute cat napper now takes 2 x 1.5 hour naps pretty consistently... Not in his cot mind but I'm realising that the location of his sleep is not important right now, just as long as he sleeps! Surely good night time sleep will follow...... SIGH!


----------



## gaiagirl

We can all only hope Rachel. Lol.


----------



## seaweed eater

I think discussions having to do with "needs" are always a bit sensitive...because on one hand needs are so culturally and socially defined, but on the other hand they are so subjective and personal. If someone told me that it's only because of my cultural background that I don't believe LO is currently getting the sleep he needs, of course I would cite his behavior and my personal knowledge of him. He is tired, and he is waking up grumpy. I don't think those things are just culture or somehow in my head. But of course there is also a cultural component to it and we can certainly have sensible debates about that. I don't really know what I'm trying to say here. I guess just that I can understand both sides and why it's always a little fraught.


----------



## freddie

Seaweed I just noticed our boys are just 6 days apart :)


----------



## seaweed eater

I would have loved to have given birth on the 18th...my EDD was the 13th :lol:


----------



## freddie

Lol, mine was the 14th so didn't do too bad!


----------



## bababas

stephie_corin said:


> I did some reading recently on segmented sleep that was interesting. The idea was that traditionally people would sleep in two blocks, waking for a period in between. The Wikipedia article on it is quite a good summary:
> 
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Segmented_sleep

interesting. 

actually i have been napping since a child. i only stopped napping in the afternoon when on my working days. :haha: on the weekends i still nap. when ds1 and ds2 nap on weekends i do too.

is anyone in the same boat?


----------



## bababas

polaris said:


> Noelle, I do agree with you and I am really interested in the sleep research and optimal sleep patterns. However since having Clara I have definitely relaxed my beliefs to some extent and embraced the individuality of babies a lot more. Thomas was in many ways a text-book baby with regard to sleep - I wouldn't say that he was a great sleeper but he did well with the expert-endorsed schedules and wake-times and his sleep as a whole seemed to follow the general pattern that is described in sleep books.

oh my, it is like my boys. Ívar was a textbook baby according to that icelandic sleeping book. maybe it works coz he is half icelandic. :haha: now im thinking if aron needs to follow that schedule, maybe it is the icelandic way :haha: and they are half icelandic.

many people have told me the second baby is always more difficult. they have to fight for their own. and are more baby baby. i am thinking by now that this is true. :winkwink: ds1 just sttn since 5 months in his bed. ds2 wants to be in my bed :haha: still wakes a lot :haha:


----------



## gaiagirl

Bababas if my second is a tougher sleeper I am going to go nuts! Lol. So yahhhhh. Hope that's not true!


----------



## bababas

stephie_corin said:


> Bababas, I meant to say, I love Iceland! I can understand how weird it must be for you though trying to get to sleep with the sun up! It must feel a bit like jetlag... but all the time!

in the winter time there is no sun! lol. that is worse. 
sumer time i put up black curtains. i am the only one in the neighbourhood with total black curtains in the sumer time. haha. 

in the winter time there is no sun until 11am at the worst. and when i go to work i feel like it is 3am! so you go to work it is dark. you go home it is dark, 4pm and dark. but my ds1 always sleeps longer during winter times. during sumer time kids here wake up early, no wonder :haha:

have you been to iceland?


----------



## bababas

polaris said:


> stephie_corin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Noelle610 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gaiagirl said:
> 
> 
> Still thinking about this...lol.
> 
> I definitely do a bit of a raised eyebrow when people say their baby just doesn't 'need' to nap or just won't. So I guess that is one place where I think parents need to step in.
> 
> Mine wouldn't just spontaneously nap, he had to be coaxed into it. But he NEEDS it!
> 
> Same here!Click to expand...
> 
> Me three!Click to expand...
> 
> Yes absolutely, me four!
> 
> Very interesting discussion. Stephie, that is really interesting about the segmented sleep, I will remember that next time Clara has a MOTN party. Maybe I should start praying with her, LOL.Click to expand...

:haha:


----------



## stephie_corin

bababas said:


> stephie_corin said:
> 
> 
> Bababas, I meant to say, I love Iceland! I can understand how weird it must be for you though trying to get to sleep with the sun up! It must feel a bit like jetlag... but all the time!
> 
> in the winter time there is no sun! lol. that is worse.
> sumer time i put up black curtains. i am the only one in the neighbourhood with total black curtains in the sumer time. haha.
> 
> in the winter time there is no sun until 11am at the worst. and when i go to work i feel like it is 3am! so you go to work it is dark. you go home it is dark, 4pm and dark. but my ds1 always sleeps longer during winter times. during sumer time kids here wake up early, no wonder :haha:
> 
> have you been to iceland?Click to expand...

We went 2 years ago, October time for DH's birthday... Loved it!!! We had fairly 'normal days' that time of year xxx


----------



## polaris

Brilliant night! 

Clara did another almost six hour stretch on her own (8 p.m. until 1.45 a.m.) which was amazing. She then had a feed and then took a good while to resettle (not crying, just lying quietly beside me for most of the time - was thinking about the segmented sleep article!), then after about an hour she had another feed and went back off to sleep until 5.45, had literally a two second feed and rolled over and back to sleep again for another hour until 6.45! I think that must be one of our best nights ever!

I feel hopeful again that her sleep is actually going to gradually improve!


----------



## bababas

polaris said:


> Brilliant night!
> 
> Clara did another almost six hour stretch on her own (8 p.m. until 1.45 a.m.) which was amazing. She then had a feed and then took a good while to resettle (not crying, just lying quietly beside me for most of the time - was thinking about the segmented sleep article!), then after about an hour she had another feed and went back off to sleep until 5.45, had literally a two second feed and rolled over and back to sleep again for another hour until 6.45! I think that must be one of our best nights ever!
> 
> I feel hopeful again that her sleep is actually going to gradually improve!

go Clara :happydance:


i got 2 stretches of 3 hour sleep last night. so i am good :happydance:

still he woke up one hour after i put him down. while i went to the pool. OH couldnt make him sleep as usual. i wonder if he is just hungry and wants more. he prolly needs to start eating soon or something. he was drinking like a crazy vampire. gonna see the midwife next friday. oh and he has two teeth now :happydance: which are not that comfy on boobie. you can see the whites but ofcourse need to grow out a bit better. i only see them if i really look in there with fingers.


----------



## stephie_corin

Polaris that is amazing! Really happy for you guys!


----------



## gaiagirl

Yay Polaris! Woot!

I woke F up at 7:30, it's come to that. Evening was so awful. Mostly because I entered a power struggle with him. What a mess.

I am so out of ideas. All I have left is blackout curtains to try.

Maybe he still needs a third nap and later bedtime!? Ugh I don't know. I don't recall that working well. I think that's WHY I decided to switch to 2, right!?

It's all a blur...

Overnight still good. But these damn evenings. So getting me down.


----------



## stephie_corin

Gaia I'm really sorry, evenings are rough here too but I'm home alone so it's probably easier to take. I wonder if it's just a phase. Cully now takes at least an hour before I can transfer him and is up every 45 mins until midnight-ish. It really does take it out of you. I've been wondering about changing our routine too. I'm going to try shorter naps and increase awake times by 10-15 minutes and see if it helps. It's such a minefield!


----------



## mellyboo

Oh man sleep here is just always up and down is it ever consistent or is it to good to be true and some kinda random pre kid day thought i had in my head...

Jordyn the other night woke up 6 times between the hours of 9pm-7am.. I was one tired mama yesterday last night she decided to only wake up once form 9-8am! augh.. i could so deal with that.

Oh works nights so i get no help in the middle of the night its been a long frigging 9 months let me tell you.. his actually thinking about switching to days and getting a pay cut because im back at work the end of sept and there is no way i can wake up 6 times in the night and do my job.... 

I should add OH helps out huge during the weekend when his home. 

I feel energyless when i'm up that many times! i'm starting to panic in my head.


----------



## freddie

Wow Polaris that's amazing! 

Gaia and Stephie, I think my LO is the opposite way round to yours... He isn't too bad at settling in the evenings, I rock him to sleep and *most nights manage that without too much difficulty but as the night goes on he gets harder and harder to resettle and the mornings are the worst! He woke up at 4.30 this morning and try as I might I couldn't get him to go back sleep... Well he would fall asleep for a minute or two after LOTS of rocking but then wake up a couple of minutes later. Rinse and repeat. Argh what's that about?!


----------



## polaris

Gaia, I would try a later bedtime (and a cat-nap if necessary) for a short time, it sounds like the current situation is not working well for either of you so you might as well try something different. What time does he usually finally settle down for the night? I would aim for that time as bedtime to avoid the struggle. I think it's not uncommon for them to go backwards and forwards a bit with nap transitions. I went back to three naps and a late bedtime for Clara for a bit after months on two naps and it actually worked quite well and resolved the problems we were having.

Stephie, what's your daily routine at the moment? Our typical wake-times now are 2.5, 4, 4.25. I am aiming for naps at 9.30 and 2.30 and bedtime at 8ish. Our first wake-time is short because I need to have her up by about 10.30 or 11 so that we can go out somewhere with Thomas but actually she has no problem settling for her first nap. I think the longer wake-times later in the day are working well for us (although Clara is a couple of months older than Cully). I'm doing shorter naps too, usually an hour in the morning and 1 to 1.5 hours in the afternoon.

Rachel - I think it is a more "typical" pattern to have deeper sleep earlier in the night (usually the first 4 or 5 hours after bedtime) and then go into a lighter sleep after that, with 4 or 5 a.m. usually being a particularly restless time. This was definitely the pattern that my older boy followed and that's what you generally see in the sleep graphs (e.g. in Ferber's book). Clara has always been the opposite though, she was generally always extremely restless until about midnight, then went into a somewhat deeper sleep for a (slightly) longer stretch, and slept best in the couple of hours before it's time to get up in the morning. (I'm putting it in past tense in the hopes that she is going to make a habit of doing a long stretch in the evenings now!).

Bababas - yay for teeth! The uncomfortable phase for breastfeeding usually passes quite quickly, they generally just need to adjust their latch somewhat so the teeth aren't getting in the way.

Mellyboo - sorry things are so inconsistent. It is tough when you are dealing with it by yourself a lot of the time. :hugs:

Hang on in there everyone - there is hope! If Clara can sleep for six hours then all of our babies will get there eventually.


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## seaweed eater

Gaia, I'm sorry you are still having such a rough time in the evenings :hugs: I think Polaris gives you good advice.

Bababas, 2 x 3 hour stretches is good! :thumbup: Glad you are feeling well!

Polaris, that's awesome!!!! :happydance: I hope you have many more nights like that! So promising that you've had two long stretches so close together (in the same week I think? I've lost track of time :lol:)

Rachel, I agree with Polaris, my understanding too is that it's normal for babies to have lighter sleep early in the morning. Munchkin is the same way, but he's also had his phases of fighting bedtime so it's not mutually exclusive! :shrug: I'm sorry about your early morning today, hope things get better :hugs:

AFM, tired :sleep: but patient. Could just barely feel tooth #3 this morning (yes Stephie, a top one!!! can you believe it?) so we'll see how that changes things. Still a lot of it left to cut though. The top ones really are bigger!


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## seaweed eater

And speaking of babies who don't need naps, mine started his day nearly 9 hours ago and has napped for a total of 40 minutes... :nope:


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## gaiagirl

Woah SE! That's intense! Teeth are seriously such a pain, they make it so hard to settle. I hope both tops pop through quickly, they are SO big!

Ok so I got our new floor bed set up and we are installing blackout curtains before bed! Haha my last two ditch efforts to get on track!

He woke up at 2:30 but i think I'll try bed at 6:30/7 with these new bedroom tools before going back to 3 naps.

Ill give it a few more days of this and then I will try a third nap again if all else fails...

Having a plan really makes me feel better! Lol. Man, nothing will test a control freak like having a baby.


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## AmyS

Will have to catch up on this thread tomorrow. Chloe only had one twenty minute nap this morning, so tonight is looking scary!


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## seaweed eater

Oh I calculated wrong earlier, it was 11 hours, not 9 :haha: I kept him up two more hours and hopefully tonight won't be too horrific, but I fear it might!

Gosh Amy...is there something in the water today?! Best of luck to you guys!!


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## AmyS

SE - Aah! You too! Good luck tonight! Chloe made it 11 hours too before crashing.


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## kissesandhugs

Still can't bring myself to sleep train again plus been babysitting my best friends daughter past 2 nights so she's been taking over the pack and play. But he has been doing something different the past few nights, he'll nurse but he won't nurse to sleep.. He rolls over away from me.. Gets comfortable.. Talks for a few seconds then goes to sleep :shrug: never happened before. I usually have a hard time getting him to unlatch until he's in a deep sleep. Do you ladies think he's trying to self settle or am I looking into it too much?


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## gaiagirl

Mine does that sometimes! It started around 7 months and only happens every now and again. I take it as a great sign! But then I cling to any small victory ;) 

Got Fs room all set up with new bed and blackout curtains! Wish me luck this evening!


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## seaweed eater

Good luck Gaia! And good luck Amy! :thumbup:

K&H, sounds like self-settling to me! :happydance:


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## stephie_corin

Rachel, Cully has had mornings like this a month or two ago. It's so tiring! Hang in there and keep putting him back to sleep if you can and hopefully he will get back into a better sleep habit.

SE, a top tooth! Congratulations!! I'm sorry naps have been so awful! Amy, sorry to you too. That is crazy. Poor Munchkin and Chloe and poor mammas!!!

Gaia, good luck with the curtains! I hope it makes a difference to you guys! Increasing his awake times slightly might help too.

Polaris, thanks for the nap advice. 14 hours sleep (which is what I aim for) is NOT working for us. I can't believe I pushed it for so long. We were doing yesterday 2.5, 3.5 and 4 but I'm going to try 2.75, 3.75-4, 4.25. We'll get up at 6am every day and bedtime should fall around 7ish. I was reading in my Dr Sears Baby Book that from 6 months, some babies only need 12 hours sleep total in every 24 (he says the range is 12-14). We shall see... Hopefully this helps things because I am a walking zombie at the moment!!


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## gaiagirl

Stephie good plan, I think F seems to like 13 hours.

Well I am now in bed with F so can safely say this evening was MUCHHHHH better. By no means fabulous. But so much better. He slept in his room from 7:15-10:45. I had to go in several times, BUT only one wakeup required nursing and the others were patting on the back or just a snuggle. He even let me swap in soother for boob at the nursing session! What!?!?

He didn't do any long stretches though, so hopefully now that we are in bed we get a few. He has been super gassy and hasn't pooped all day so not sure if that's bugging him...

Ah well, semi success!


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## bababas

Aron went down 9pm. But drank a lot lot lot. 

drank again super lot 00:00 and again 2:30. i was scared he would pop :haha:

then we slept until 7.30!!! but i dont really believe it. but that is what i remember. and him now moving in the middle of the bed near me. then he settles. but then i am squashed to the other side :dohh:

woke up 7.30 coz ds1 was screaming MAMA from downstairs :haha:


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## seaweed eater

Stephie, I think it's a great idea to try more TWT. :thumbup: You really have been trying 10 for quite a while. I really hope it helps -- you are overdue for better nights! I will be so happy for you!!

Gaia, glad the first part of your night went so much better! :happydance: I hope the rest of the night was good.

Bababas, 2:30-7:30 is fantastic!!! :yipee: I say even if you were up briefly, it still counts if you don't remember being up. :winkwink: I hope that continues!

We actually had a really good night here too. A little scary when LO woke up very cheerful at 4:30, especially after his bedtime had been 6:20 (two other wakings in between), but he miraculously went back to sleep from 5 to 6. :happydance: He's seemed more comfortable at daycare the past couple of days so hopefully this rough patch will be behind us soon. Naps are still awful though so we'll see.

Amy, thinking of you, hope you guys had a decent night!


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## stephie_corin

SE, so glad the night wasn't awful after the poor nap yesterday! And hopefully the rough patch is now over and Munchkin starts enjoying his new room.

Gaia, good news from your end too! Your gassy comment made me laugh out loud because Cully is also 'gassy' at the moment and being quite musical as he crawls around (I haven't heard that term before!). 

Bababas, I agree! Great news!

Amy?? I hope you guys are doing ok.

Polaris, any other amazingly long stretches of sleep by Clara? I have a quick question for you - when calculating wake times (I know it's all approximate) how much time do you factor in for nursing to sleep? Or do you start nursing at the end of the wake time?

Our day was ok - we stuck to the wake times except for the middle one. He only took a 45 minute nap in the morning and he ended up really tired at 3.25 hours (the usual time we would start nursing to sleep) so we nursed to sleep at that point. I think it will take a while to increase that wake time, but I will slowly increase it by 5 minute increments until its closer to 4 hours. We also had our first cloth nappy leak during his second nap so it only went for 1 hour. So all in all he was pretty tired today! He's nursing to sleep now and I am remaining optimistic!

He also ate 1/4 of an avocado and a few pieces of pasta at dinner time, which is the largest volume of food he's ever eaten! This is off topic and not relevant to sleep, but I'm excited!


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## AmyS

SE - Glad to hear it! We had a really good night also. I was shocked!

Stephie - I hope that your new routine is successful! I wonder how long it might take until you would know for sure? 

Gaia - Glad you had a better evening! I hate it when there's no poop for the day! Just another thing to worry about!

kissesandhugs - That sounds like self settling to me! 
______________

After our one short nap yesterday, we actually had a pretty good night! Hopefully she isn't a crab at daycare today! She hasn't been napping well at all there. 

And tooth #2 is in!!! Barely!


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## stephie_corin

Maybe one half hour nap per day is the way forward for all of us!


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## gaiagirl

Some positive vibes here today, yay!

After I wrote we had a bit of a baby party from 10:45-11:30 he was pretty unsettled and gassy (can't believe you haven't heard that term Stephie!?!?). After that it was a good night, a few wakeups I think?! And a bit unsettled around 5 but we all slept until 7:15.

He did actually also eat quite a bit yesterday and day before but I'm doing a breast milk cleanse today because I think he's back up...


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## stephie_corin

Gaia I think the Australian equivalent is 'windy' or people just say fart... What can I say, we Australians are crass ;) glad you had a good night!!


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## AmyS

My mother would faint if I said "fart". She calls that the "f" word.


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## seaweed eater

:lol: at both Stephie and Amy!

1/4 of an avocado is very impressive. Well done C! :thumbup: Now where are those teeth?

Amy, congrats on the tooth! :happydance: See, no toothless child for you.

Gaia, glad the rest of the night was ok :thumbup:


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## bababas

gaiagirl said:


> Stephie good plan, I think F seems to like 13 hours.
> 
> Well I am now in bed with F so can safely say this evening was MUCHHHHH better. By no means fabulous. But so much better. He slept in his room from 7:15-10:45. I had to go in several times, BUT only one wakeup required nursing and the others were patting on the back or just a snuggle. He even let me swap in soother for boob at the nursing session! What!?!?
> 
> He didn't do any long stretches though, so hopefully now that we are in bed we get a few. He has been super gassy and hasn't pooped all day so not sure if that's bugging him...
> 
> Ah well, semi success!

sounds great, soother for boob, has only happened twice here in the night. will prolly never happen again :haha:


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## bababas

congrats on the tooth amy.

and hope the new routine will work stephie.


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## stephie_corin

Amy that is hilarious!!! We say 'fluff' in my house... I'm not fond of the F Word either!!


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## seaweed eater

Fluff? As in, "who fluffed?" :lol:


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## gaiagirl

To me, fluff now means either cloth diapers or woven wraps. As in "Got some long awaited fluff mail today!"

Our euphemism was 'toot'!


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## AmyS

I "fluff" my laundry. Smells nice when it's done!


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## stephie_corin

seaweed eater said:


> Fluff? As in, "who fluffed?" :lol:

Exactly! There's been a lot of fluffing going on in my house last night (and not from me or DH).

Noelle, sorry for lowering the tone of your thread - although Gaia started it :haha:

We had a better night last night. It still took ages to get him down at the start of the night and he woke probably every 90 mins but he was much easier to settle. I'm going to keep working on our awake times today x


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## seaweed eater

Yeah, we refer to LO's "fluffy butt" due to additional girth from his cloth diaper...guess that would mean something rather different in the Stephie household! :haha:

Glad your night was better! Every 90 minutes is still rough, but much much better than every 45! :hugs: I hope things continue to improve.

Munchkin refused his afternoon nap again, so the fun continues over here. I wonder whether sleep training would help him with this given that they (try to) put him down asleep at daycare. IIRC it did help him extend his naps in his old classroom, but that's when he was willing to go down but just unable to stay asleep, which is different.


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## stephie_corin

SE that's so rough! I can't imagine Cully on one nap. He would be a mess. Does he let you rock him to sleep for naps at home? How do you think sleep training will help the napping situation? Poor Munchkin! Any chance he's a super early one nap transitioner? I know that suggestion always gets rubbished but I know a 10 month old on one nap in real life. What if you tried putting him down later in the day? Would he be ok or would he struggle?


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## bababas

good that your night was better stephie. wow every 90 minutes must be tough!

Aron did his longest first stretch of sleep since he was 3 months.
8:30pm-00:30 (damn should have gone to bed here)

but then woke up every two hours :haha: i think he is just a surprise every night :haha:

anyway and then woke up early. 6:50.

last days putting him to naps is like holding a screaming pig. i feel so guilty, but he needs a nap. so it takes 10 minutes. not so bad in the end. just hope he is only difficult due to his teeth. some part of it is out already but not the whole tooth if you know what i mean. could that be it?

cant wait until i try to put him in his room again. i will try after my dad leaves. i wanna have him on the matress, coz by then he might start crawling, and i am scared he will fall from my bed. hope he will sleep better then without me. prolly not :haha:


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## bababas

seaweed eater said:


> Yeah, we refer to LO's "fluffy butt" due to additional girth from his cloth diaper...guess that would mean something rather different in the Stephie household! :haha:
> 
> Glad your night was better! Every 90 minutes is still rough, but much much better than every 45! :hugs: I hope things continue to improve.
> 
> Munchkin refused his afternoon nap again, so the fun continues over here. I wonder whether sleep training would help him with this given that they (try to) put him down asleep at daycare. IIRC it did help him extend his naps in his old classroom, but that's when he was willing to go down but just unable to stay asleep, which is different.


i remember with ds1 he would refuse his 2nd nap around this time. and i ended up walking with him for 2 hours outside for a week with no success but me being tired lol.

then my friend said. her ds1 stopped napping way earlier. and would never nap 1 nap at 1year. she would just lie with him in bed to have quiet time. but nothing worked to make him nap. so she said i should worry. so if i remember correctly about 10 months ds1 napped only ones. he still naps ones now, i am glad for that :haha: can have both nap at the same time while i nap too.


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## Noelle610

I love a humorous tone to our thread once in awhile! You gotta have sense of humor or you might as well just give up, right? ;)

This is a hilarious discussion. I think of "fluff" as marshmallow fluff, which is something you put on a peanut butter sandwich when you're little :haha: I bet none of you have ever heard of this!


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## gaiagirl

Mmmmmmm marshmallow fluff!

Stephie, yay for improvements however small :)

Bababas - Yay four hours! Nice! I always make that mistake of not going to bed at the right time...darn!

SE - F would be such a mess! Impressed Munckin can hold it together! I totally stress about naps too (obviously) but I DO try to tell myself that all we can do is give them opportunities to sleep and try and facilitate it. They have to meet us halfway! Lol. There is nothing I can do personally to make F sleep if he isn't into it...

Having said that, I would be weirded out on one nap so I can imagine why you want to change that! 

AFM - *Stay away curse* Night two of having some evening back. F slept in his bed from 7:30-12. I only had to go in ONCE in that time. DH and I watched a movie and even had some...romantic time! ;)

DH pointed out that F has usually two good evenings followed by 20 miserable though, so glad we enjoyed it while it lasted. 

Tonight will be the interesting one! Back to normal or another easy one!?!?

Still sticking to 2 naps and glad I stuck it out with 2 a bit longer because I don't think that was th problem...

Maybe his teeth migrate down for 20 days then take a 2 day break!? Lol.

Stilllllll getting the 8th. It's broken through but hasn't risen up much. Actually all his teeth are still kinda 'short'...for those with older babies, is this normal? I can't believe how slowly they seem to fully move into place...


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## stephie_corin

Noelle, I have never heard of marshmallow fluff! It sounds delicious! How is Charlie? Still enjoying 2 naps? What are they doing with her at daycare?

Bababas, what an awesome sleep!! Good luck getting him back in his room.

Gaia, such wonderful news!! I still can't believe F is working on his 8th tooth. Poor little man. That must have been so painful for him. Culver still only has two teeth!

I tried a little experiment today and just let Cully crawl around our room until he started to get tired. 4 hours and 45 minutes after his last nap (and almost SEVEN hours since his last feed) I put my foot down and started feeding him to sleep. So total awake time = 11.5. I will report back in the morning!! Surely 5 hours is far too long for him to be awake? He seemed to get a bit manic towards the 4.5 hour mark but not too bad.


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## stephie_corin

bababas said:


> seaweed eater said:
> 
> 
> Yeah, we refer to LO's "fluffy butt" due to additional girth from his cloth diaper...guess that would mean something rather different in the Stephie household! :haha:
> 
> Glad your night was better! Every 90 minutes is still rough, but much much better than every 45! :hugs: I hope things continue to improve.
> 
> Munchkin refused his afternoon nap again, so the fun continues over here. I wonder whether sleep training would help him with this given that they (try to) put him down asleep at daycare. IIRC it did help him extend his naps in his old classroom, but that's when he was willing to go down but just unable to stay asleep, which is different.
> 
> 
> i remember with ds1 he would refuse his 2nd nap around this time. and i ended up walking with him for 2 hours outside for a week with no success but me being tired lol.
> 
> then my friend said. her ds1 stopped napping way earlier. and would never nap 1 nap at 1year. she would just lie with him in bed to have quiet time. but nothing worked to make him nap. so she said i should worry. so if i remember correctly about 10 months ds1 napped only ones. he still naps ones now, i am glad for that :haha: can have both nap at the same time while i nap too.Click to expand...

This is really interesting! Ten months seems so early but it really is true that all babies are different.


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## bababas

hi stephie. yes like my boys are black and white in every way :haha: they are supposed to be brothers :haha:

btw here in iceland most babies begin playschool at 9-12 months and for 12 months all play schools have only 1 nap. the special playschools here the privAte ones supply 2 naps for the younger ones.


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## polaris

It's still so hot here! 28 degrees in Clara's room this evening. It took forever to get her to sleep this evening. No more long stretches, she has come down with a cough which was disturbing her sleep a lot last night, and I also think I can see tooth number 5 under the gums.


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## bababas

28! wow. ok im glad that i am in iceland now :wacko: our room is 21. but anyway therefore you get no summer here :haha: 18-22 degrees is summer outside. with cold winds.


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## seaweed eater

Noelle, of course I've heard of marshmallow fluff! Yummy :)

Stephie, even on good days Munchkin routinely goes close to 5 hours after his last nap. IIRC that started when WW37 started, so a couple of months ago. (We had success for about a week trying to put him down right at 4 hours, but then that stopped, and I tried 3.5 hours with no success.) I'm sure if 12 hours TWT is in the normal range, at least 4.5 hours before bed must be, too. 12 must look something like 3-4-5 or 3-4.5-4.5. Otherwise it would have to be 4-4-4 or 3-5-4 and I think it's definitely better to have the longest one before bed. Long-winded way of saying...if it works then I think you can go with it! :thumbup: But if he's not doing well on it, of course, intervene.

Gaia, so glad things are improving for you!! :happydance: Stay away curse! I really hope the better evenings continue. Munchkin's one tooth that's fully grown in looks short to me, but I think it's done. So maybe it's normal? Or maybe normal among glacially slow teethers, anyway? :haha:

Polaris, sorry you had a rough night :hugs: hope that tooth is out soon, the weather cools down, and her cough goes away. All transient things, at least, and hopefully brief!

Thanks ladies. I'm at least 99% certain Munchkin is not ready for one nap. Before his sleep got worse he was often taking two 1.5-hour naps per day. Today, his first nap was short, but he went down great for his second nap and is currently well into its second sleep cycle. From what they've said at daycare, he falls asleep in their arms but just won't let them transfer him, so I think it's the new environment and the new people, plus general overtiredness. Also I'm thinking of asking them not to put him down before 3 hours awake at an absolute minimum, and probably 3.5 unless he really seems exhausted. They go by his cues and sometimes I think they try too early, and then I'm afraid that sleeping in their arms for a few minutes throws him off. I don't know how he's keeping it together, either, honestly!


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## gaiagirl

SE that's Fs issue too, the transfer. I wonder if they would be willing to just bounce him in a carrier and wear him for at least a sleep cycle if it doesn't change soon? That way he's at least getting a short nap!


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## seaweed eater

They can't use carriers because of their licensing. They're not allowed to use anything that restrains babies, so no swings or anything either. Licensing is also the reason they can't let him use his blankie in the crib, which I think is actually a pretty big problem for him. :( For the most part the licensing gives me immense peace of mind but some of these little details are annoying. I think they typically hold him for about 10-15 minutes after he falls asleep but I've seen them say to babies, "We need to sleep in our beds." Personally, I support them in that, actually -- it's the same rule I've always had at home. If I'm in WIO mode then I'll help him get to sleep as many times as he wants, but he needs to sleep in his bed. There was one day they told me they tried for two and a half hours to put him down, so I'm happy with how hard they are trying. And I don't think having them hold him through his naps is a long-term solution.

Anyway so he is getting a few minutes of sleep in arms at least. And he's slept in his crib at least 20 minutes most days since he started, too, so hopefully the more he does it the easier it will get. Part of the problem is probably that they actually changed the location of his crib last week, so that he's closer to the white noise and farther from the play area. I think that will be a good change in the long run (even when he would fall asleep he wasn't sleeping a full cycle, I think because noise was waking him up) but for now it's probably made things harder since it was yet another change.

Stephie, I realized I never answered your question about how sleep training would help with this. When we've sleep trained in the past it's been my sense that he becomes able to fall asleep more easily in any given situation. Like he even falls asleep more quickly in the car! So I'm wondering whether, if he is waking up upon transfer, he'd be more able to just go to sleep when they put him down. :shrug: Might not help, but I don't think it would hurt.


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## gaiagirl

Well. We are either still teething or teething again. I don't know. He has been intensely drooly and chewy and rashy all day and was biting me and fighting bedtime tonight. 

I give up! I cannot catch a break!

Guess DH was right. 2 nights off and then the teeth are back at it.


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## stephie_corin

I can't believe I'm writing this but our night was better!! The evening was horrendous - he woke a few times hysterical, but I suspect this is him getting used to the longer awake time (or our old friend teething of course). I went to bed at 10ish and I think we only had 3 wakeups (each pretty quick to resettle) until 430 am. He then had to be resettled every half hour but this is pretty normal for us.

I'm thrilled and feel so stupid for pushing the 12 hours at night for so long. I had in my head he had to sleep 12 hours (or be given the opportunity to sleep 12 hours) or I would be damaging him!

New plan - 2.5 (cat nap) 3.5 (at least 1.5 hour nap) 5. I did think about abandoning a plan altogether but this doesn't suit my personality and I'm sure Culver would just stay up forever and not breastfeed and we would both be a quivering mess.

I'll be back soon to respond to everyone - cat nap time!


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## gaiagirl

Yay, awesome news Stephie!

F never gets 12 hours at night. Usually 10-11 :)


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## stephie_corin

Polaris, 28 degrees is hot! Poor Clara! Can you put a fan in her room? I hope her cough gets better soon. Hopefully you don't feel too tired!!

SE, I feel so relieved to know Munchkin is doing a 5 hour stretch too (or longer!). We should have compared notes earlier! Every source I've read other than Dr Sears says that they need 14-15 hours sleep at this age. I think C is closer to 12.5-13. Although I guess I should wait a few more days before I call this the magic formula for success! 

I think your plan with daycare and timing of naps seems like a good one. If C only takes a morning cat nap, 3-3.5 hours seems to be perfect for him before his next nap. Any longer and he starts getting quite fussy. Is there any lovey they would let him take in the crib? Maybe a small soft toy or a very small square of material? How about a day time sleeping bag that he could form an association with? What you say about sleep training makes sense.

Bababas, how was your night? Amy?

Gaia I am so sorry teething is messing you guys up again. I know you said a while back that 5 would be way too long for F but I wonder if you could slowly start increasing his awake times. Just a warning: I'm going to be suggesting this to everyone now so feel free to ignore me!

If this longer awake time works, I am never reading another sleep book, ever!


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## gaiagirl

Haha, I'm definitely never reading another one anyways. But I may try longer. Problem may have also been a messed up afternoon nap that went to 4:15...

I think 3:30 is about as late as he should be sleeping.

Hope you have another good one tonight!


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## polaris

Stephie, would you believe that I don't even own a fan? We are so not set up for this type of hot weather! I will have to get one if this hot weather continues. However it was thankfully a bit cooler last night, although Clara was still extremely disturbed and upset by her cough.


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## stephie_corin

Polaris, oh no! I think you should definitely buy one! Global warming could result in even hotter summers in the future! I feel bad for poor Clara. I hope she's on the mend soon.

We had a great day - it went perfectly to plan and he took a 1.75 hour nap in the afternoon and resettled himself 3 times! I was so proud. I watched his little eyes pop open and thought it was time to rock him back to sleep but he did it himself. 

It's still taking ages to get him into a deep sleep at the end of the day though, evwn with the long awake time. It's now an hour since he fell asleep but I haven't been able to transfer him. He did the 5 hours easily though and definitely could have stayed up longer. Does anyone know the maximum time I should let him stay up? I guess he's probably so far over what's recommended at his age it will just be a case of trial and error.


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## seaweed eater

Stephie that's wonderful!! :happydance: Such good news that he resettled himself three times in one nap. Way to go, Cully! I hope a good night follows! :thumbup:

With respect to maximum WT for him, I think you could either just stick with 5 if that's working well, or try to find his limits with the knowledge that you'll all probably be a little sleep deprived for a few days. Personally I think I would stick with 5 if he's going down easily and sleeping better, but it's up to you! Another issue is that much more than 5 and it starts being hard to fit in two naps most days, or at least that's been my experience -- if Munchkin goes to sleep later than a certain time, he can't sleep enough at night and then gets overtired in the morning, etc. I suppose if you want to stretch it you could try a BTC bedtime with around 5 hours before bed and then some days will naturally end up slightly longer than 5, and you could see if there's any difference.

I think somewhere around 12-13 hours of sleep has been right for Munchkin recently. 10 at night and around 2.5 daytime, give or take. Of course recently he's been closer to 10 or 11 hours many days :( which is not the disaster it sounds like it could be, but he could certainly use more than that. He has never gotten the average recommended amount of sleep, though. I remember looking at the Weissbluth statistics back when I read that (in...February?) and he was somewhere around the 10th percentile then too. He was born very alert, and for a while when he was little my only sleep strategy was to get him to sleep as much as possible by any means, and he was still an hour or two below average. So...I know we don't approve of saying all babies are different, but I've had to accept it!

Gaiagirl, I've found the same thing -- 4 used to be my cutoff for afternoon naps but I think 3 or 3:30 is better.

AFM...
We need to make a change over here. Things are getting worse. Waking almost every hour, and at precisely 4:30 every morning he's either up for the day or we have a suspenseful MOTN party. I feel a bit ashamed saying this in a thread full of WIOers, but I just don't think he needs to be waking up this often. I'm conflicted because I know there's a reason we made this change, and I'm scared to go back to having him cry. But I really don't believe he needs this. If he did, things should be getting better, not worse. He needs the sleep. And my needs count for something, too. Maybe not much :winkwink: but surely something.

I'll be thinking today about whether there's a way to limit nursing and encourage SS that's gentler and more flexible than what we were doing before. Suggestions welcome. I'm not really sure there is, though. So probably we are looking at round 3 of sleep training. :/


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## stephie_corin

SE - I'm so sorry things are getting worse! What kind of sleep training will you do? Gentle removal again? Of course your needs are important! A happy mummy is crucial for a happy baby!! Just as every baby is different, so too is every family and every circumstance. You need your brain at the moment! All I need to think about is how many boosters I should put in his nappy and whether I should eat the rest of the Lindt chocolate now or save it for later...

Thank you so much for your advice on wake times. 5 hours seems pretty good for now so I think I will stick with it, especially seeing as I am getting him up at 6am.

I just watched the most amazing thing on our video monitor. Cully woke up 45 minutes after I finally transferred him. I decided to watch and see what would happen. He lay there for 5-10 minutes with his eyes open looking around. He pulled on his blanket and raised his legs in the air, then put himself to sleep. I'm in shock and feel so happy. I can't believe something as simple as increasing his awake time has already had so many positive changes. He's normally crying at this wake up... I just can't believe it!


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## bababas

stephie_corin said:


> SE - I'm so sorry things are getting worse! What kind of sleep training will you do? Gentle removal again? Of course your needs are important! A happy mummy is crucial for a happy baby!! Just as every baby is different, so too is every family and every circumstance. You need your brain at the moment! All I need to think about is how many boosters I should put in his nappy and whether I should eat the rest of the Lindt chocolate now or save it for later...
> 
> Thank you so much for your advice on wake times. 5 hours seems pretty good for now so I think I will stick with it, especially seeing as I am getting him up at 6am.
> 
> I just watched the most amazing thing on our video monitor. Cully woke up 45 minutes after I finally transferred him. I decided to watch and see what would happen. He lay there for 5-10 minutes with his eyes open looking around. He pulled on his blanket and raised his legs in the air, then put himself to sleep. I'm in shock and feel so happy. I can't believe something as simple as increasing his awake time has already had so many positive changes. He's normally crying at this wake up... I just can't believe it!

:thumbup: that sounds perfect!!!

hope it will continue and get even better.

my night last night... i put aron down later coz of a late nap. coz we drove to the inlaws, so he fell asleep in the car. took some time to put him down, but nothing major. he woke up 2 times but managed to make himself sleep again. then 00:30 as usual 2:30 and 4:30 i think.... then we woke up around 7. but i couldnt really sleep tonight the neighbour´s BF again and his noisy car :cry: always wakes me up. nevertheless i was rested in the morning somehow :wacko: went swimming with my toddler (running up the slide and slide down the water slide 10000000 times lol) while OH put Aron to nap. he has been difficult in his morning naps now :wacko: i wonder if i put him down too early. it is 2hrs after his wake up. he is 5 months soon. ds1 had two naps at 6 months. wonder if aron is gonna change soon. dont like nap transitions.... you never know what happens, or what you are supposed to do.


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## polaris

Stephie - wow what brilliant news on the self-settling!! I am just so chuffed for you and Cully! Your little boy is growing up! It definitely sounds like increasing the wake-times was the right move. I am now wondering if I need to increase Clara's wake-times. Do you think it is worth a try? At the moment we are doing 2.5-3/4/4. Or maybe I should stick with those wake-times but get her up earlier from her afternoon nap? I currently let her sleep until 4 and aim for bedtime at 8 but maybe I should get her up at 3.30? Then I could either do bedtime at 7.30 or stick with an 8 p.m. bedtime for a 4.5 hour wake-time. Oh decisions decisions! I am going to buy a fan tomorrow by the way - you are right, we could be getting more hot summers and the forecast says it's not set to change this week anyway.

SE - I'm so sorry to hear that things are getting worse. I think it is worth going back to sleep training. Munchkin was sleeping SOO much better when you were sleep training. And it sounds like the timing might be good now in that he is a bit more settled in daycare. Also you are right, it might well improve his naps, when I did CC with Clara the most immediate improvement was that she started to nap properly again whereas before that she was taking 45 minutes to get settled and then only sleeping for 20 minutes. 

Also I know I am one of those who are currently WIO but that is honestly just because it seems to be the best fit for my situation at the moment. That could all change and if I felt that Clara's sleep was really suffering and that sleep training would be better for her then I would be doing sleep training as I have done in the past. So I definitely don't think you should feel bad for considering sleep training. I think the nice thing about this thread is that different people take different approaches but everybody respects each other's parenting decisions. :hugs:

Bababas - I hate nap transitions too. It's like as soon as you get your head around a good workable routine they go and change things up again!

Gaia - sorry things are back to the usual rubbish sleep. That is how Clara is too. It's like she gives me a little taster of what it would be like if she slept moderately well and then she goes back to her usual antics. But at least we are getting SOME good nights now which I take as a good sign of the direction that things will eventually move in.


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## seaweed eater

Thanks Stephie and Polaris <3 yeah, I think we will just pick up where we left off. It's really not that different from what we are doing now, just different rules. At bedtime, nurse until he won't take anymore, then down awake and I'll sit in the room until he's asleep. Then limit how many times I nurse during the night, maybe to twice at first and then once. Instead of nursing, sit in his room if he doesn't settle on his own within a few minutes. I just remember how he started waking after 3-4 hours in, maybe the second week of it last time, and once I stopped feeding him then, he instantly stopped waking up. I'm hoping the same thing will happen now...that once he understands he doesn't get to nurse constantly, he'll just stop. We shall see :shrug:

Stephie that is amazing!!! :cloud9: It just feels like such a miracle to see them do that. I'm so glad you have a video monitor and could observe the whole thing. Really amazing. Long may it continue!!

Bababas, sounds like a decent night, but I'm sorry the nap is difficult at the moment. You could always try 2.5 hours and see if that makes things any better, but I think he's too young for two naps still. It really seems to hit right at six months for many babies. Mine was taking 4-5 and then all of a sudden he wanted two! I agree with you, nap transitions are really tough and confusing. I would try a longer wake time for at least a few days but probably not try to push it to two naps for now.

Polaris, is Clara having an easy time settling when you put her down, and does she stay asleep? For us undertired = takes a long time to go down, or fights it, and often wakes up too soon. But maybe for Stephie the signs were different, so it certainly might be worth a try if it seems like C could stay up for longer.


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## gaiagirl

Stephie such an exciting day for you! Hope it continues!!!!

Sorry I am just stopping in on my phone and didn't read in detail...ill come back.

After he went to sleep at 9 last night it actually went well.

Tonight will be interesting. He has a decent morning nap then at 2 slept for only 20min...so by 6:15 at dinner he LOST it. I felt awful and he was hysterical as I got him ready for bed and then crashed HARD at 6:45. 

I just feel terrible but I REALLY didn't want to do a third nap...poor baby!

Lets hope this bedtime doesn't just turn into nap 3...


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## seaweed eater

Ugh such a trying night. We actually decided to put it on hold when I noticed tooth #4 about to erupt. But then LO woke up at 45 min and would not be soothed (took him outside to play and he cried and rubbed his eyes, nursed him until he wouldn't nurse anymore) and we'd given ibuprofen already, so I let him cry. Took forever, over half an hour I'm not sure exactly how long. I just didn't know what else to do. But I regret it. I should have tried harder, tried taking him outside again, or put him in the carrier, or I don't know what else, but something. Now I don't know whether to keep going or not. DH won't give an opinion. I'm just so sad. His poor mouth must really hurt, this isn't the time to let him cry, and I wasn't able to soothe him. I win bad mother of the week award again. :cry:


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## stephie_corin

Bababas, swimming with a toddler sounds tiring! I'm so sorry your neighbour woke you up! I think Cully made the transition to 2 naps at 6.5 months. Could Aron be overtired? You could try 1.5 or 1.75 for the first awake time. I remember Cully was really sensitive to being overtired at that age and his first awake time was pretty short, particularly as he was having broken sleep the night before.

Thanks Polaris! It might be worth a shot increasing her last waketime and see how she goes. C falls asleep easily at 3.5, 4 and 5 hours since his last nap and seems to take an hour before I can transfer him regardless, but the longer waketime before bed has significantly reduced the number of night wakings. He was waking pretty much every sleep cycle and last night it was only 4 times!! We did have an interesting MOTN party - I fed him back to sleep and went to the bathroom only to come back to him sitting bolt upright in the middle of the bed. He has never done this before and it took him a while to go back to sleep. The rest of the night wakings were a breeze! For us, I think a decent second nap is the key to a happy long awake time before bed. He catnaps in the morning (30-45 mins) and then has taken a 1.5 ish hour afternoon snooze. 

SE, thank you! It did feel like a miracle!! lol. I think your plan is a good one! Good luck my friend, and as always please keep us updated!

Gaia, I'm so sorry the evening was so horrible! Can you help his back to sleep when he wakes early from a nap? 20 minutes is rough! Poor little guy. Here's hoping for a good night for you!!


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## CupcakeBaby

I'm giving up for tonight. :( DD just can't sleep unless she's on me tonight. Reflux is playing up. 

If I put her down she just moans and groans. 

It's going to be a loooong day!


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## stephie_corin

SE!!! We cross posted! Huge hugs to you! You are not a bad mummy!!! You are a wonderful mummy - Munchkin is so lucky to have you! Sometimes they don't want to be soothed. C just woke up but I will write properly later. Thinking of you!!!


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## polaris

SE, when you say that you let him cry were you sitting beside his bed? I don't think it's so terrible, as Stephie says sometimes they just don't want to be soothed. That is how Clara is at the moment with her cough. It is really horrible because she just wants to go to sleep but she can't because she keeps coughing and then crying. But nothing that I do helps, she doesn't want to nurse more, she twists out of my arms to get down if I pick her up, if I try to stroke her head or pat her back she pushes my arm away, I have even tried turning on the lights and playing with her a bit but she just wants to go to sleep. I am just lying beside her while she coughs and cries and eventually she rolls back towards me and nurses a bit more and then finally goes to sleep. But it is miserable not being able to do anything to help her.


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## stephie_corin

Polaris has just said exactly what I was going to say but with a different example! This morning Cully fell and bumped his head and was crying like the world was going to end. I tried to nurse him, hug him, stroke him but he just kept pushing me away. I know you feel enotional about what happened but don't be so hard on yourself. You're probably exhausted yourself which totally intensifies these feelings. I hope you get some sleep tonight honey xxx


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## bababas

seaweed eater said:


> Bababas, sounds like a decent night, but I'm sorry the nap is difficult at the moment. You could always try 2.5 hours and see if that makes things any better, but I think he's too young for two naps still. It really seems to hit right at six months for many babies. Mine was taking 4-5 and then all of a sudden he wanted two! I agree with you, nap transitions are really tough and confusing. I would try a longer wake time for at least a few days but probably not try to push it to two naps for now.
> .

could also be just one of those days. i think i will wait it out as long as possible. i mean like how i did with ds1, i waited and tried as long as possible to have 3 naps. but still the transition is boring isnt it :haha: yea i agree that he is too young for two. i try to push it as long as possible. thank you. now he is crying for me have to go :haha:


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## Babybear85

Can I join you all. My little dude is only 12 weeks but really struggling. Absolutely expect his night wakings just finding it hard atm with the heat and having a toddler. In a place of not knowing whether to buy a bigger swaddling blanket for him or try sleeping bag. His startle reflex is really bad my eldest was in a bag by 2 months but littly doesn't seem to be loosing it yet. Feel like the walking dead today


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## Noelle610

CupcakeBaby said:


> I'm giving up for tonight. :( DD just can't sleep unless she's on me tonight. Reflux is playing up.
> 
> If I put her down she just moans and groans.
> 
> It's going to be a loooong day!

Oh, :hugs: I had a reflux baby too, it's so hard because there's little you can do. Do you have a Rock-n-Play Sleeper?



Babybear85 said:


> Can I join you all. My little dude is only 12 weeks but really struggling. Absolutely expect his night wakings just finding it hard atm with the heat and having a toddler. In a place of not knowing whether to buy a bigger swaddling blanket for him or try sleeping bag. His startle reflex is really bad my eldest was in a bag by 2 months but littly doesn't seem to be loosing it yet. Feel like the walking dead today

Hi and welcome! I think I would continue swaddling if his startle reflex is still really bad. The miracle blanket was a life-saver for me. It's like a baby straight jacket!


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## bababas

seaweed you are not a bad mom. sometimes they just have bad days. and they cant talk yet, so there is only so much we can do. he is teething anyway. dont worry, hope the bad days will go away! :hugs:


stephie, Aron was ok this morning nap. just fell asleep with no problem. still sleeping YEY. was able to exercise. maybe it was just one of those nasty days :wacko: or teething. thank you. aron is more sensitive when he is not tired, then i just get kicked and punched by a 5 months old :haha: i dont get it. haha in the night it takes longer. and he wants to ONLY fall asleep on the breast. but i wonder how long that will work. ds1 fell asleep on the bottle until 5-6monthish. after that i just tried to put him awake in his crib. BUT Aron hates his crib for night time :wacko: maybe i look too much into the future haha. we will see what will happen.


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## bababas

so sorry cupcake. :hugs: hope it gets better soon.


hi BabyBear. Toddler and 12 weeks old is really tough! i find it to get better now. If the nights are good with LO that is. they have been improving when i changed to longer awake times which the ladies here have helped me with. how is he sleeping in the night?


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## AmyS

SE - I like your plan! I'm sorry that you have to go back to sleep training, but you do know what's best for your LO. And you are not a bad mother! Chloe won't let me soothe her sometimes either. Poor babies. He knows you are there for him. I agree with putting the ST on hold when he's in pain. 

Gaia - Glad you had a couple of good nights! Teething seems to be never ending. 

Stephie - I can't imagine a 5 hour wake time! He must have so much energy. Can't wait to hear about the rest of your night!!!! He is doing so well, self settling on his own! 

polaris - Teething, coughing, and the heat?!? That's rough! Hope it calms down for you soon!

bababas - I hope you get your naps figured out! Transition time is tricky.

CupcakeBaby - I agree with Noelle - try a Rock 'N Play if you can. THey are wonderful for keeping baby elevated. My LO didn't have reflux, but we used if for when she was sick with RSV. They just feel so cuddled in it also!

Babybear85 - I agree with the other, too, I would buy a larger swaddle if his startle reflex is still bad. You can wean him of it later on. You could also try the halo sleepsack, and swaddle with arms in, then when you are weaning, leave arms out, then swaddle looser and looser...
___________________________

I cannot complain about our nights. Sometimes she sttn, and sometimes she's up once or twice. I don't let her cry. I will either try to settle her in her crib, or pick her up and rock her for a few minutes. Usually, she settles herself wonderfully. In the morning, if she wakes early, I hear her talking to her ducky lovey, and then she will fall back to sleep until 6 or 6:30, which is when we usually get up. 

Daycare naps last week were awful though!! They haven't been able to put her down. Like SE, they try to put her down asleep, and it isn't going well. Friday, they had a light day, so they held her for an hour for her afternoon nap. And I was going to try to stop holding her for naps on the weekend, but I never did put her down. Ooops.


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## gaiagirl

SE - Hugs xxxxxxx Try to be gentle with yourself, you are ANYTHING but a terrible mother. I felt the same one night last week when I tried to get F to sleep without nursing and he SOBBED forever. I was right there but I still felt sick about it. It just means that you are sensitive and responsive to him and that is a GOOD thing. He's lucky to have you, please be easy on yourself.

We had an ok night I guess. Baby party from 10-11 but I had to wake him at 7:30! I was shocked, I thought 6:45 bedtime would mean early wakeup for sure.

Nap 1 is a bit rough, he's been latched on for an hour refusing to let go. He does this when his mouth hurts.

I can't believe I'm still dealing with teeth. Seriously this is ridiculous.


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## seaweed eater

Thanks ladies <3 I was sitting with him and telling him he was tired and it was time to sleep. I just wanted to pick him up again, but I passed some point where I felt like I was committed and had to let him fall asleep that way! I don't know whether picking him up would really have helped anyway, I mean it would have helped calm him down but maybe he would have ended up going to sleep later than he did.

The night wasn't bad comparatively -- I think he was up only 3 times incl the usual MOTN. I just don't know what to do now, whether to keep waiting or go ahead and change the rules again. On one hand I know there's always going to be something at this age, but on the other hand, I've never been more certain that he's teething, and he hasn't normally been that hard to settle. Ugh, I think what I really need is to somehow get over my ambivalence about sleep training!

More later, thank you again for your support <3


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## stephie_corin

Damn you BnB curse!!! It's 10.50 PM, I still need to finish packing, we are leaving at 5 AM tomorrow... DH has been in the office for FORTY hours leading up to his midnight deadline tonight. Please tell your children not to be lawyers when they grow up.

I put Cully down a mere ten minutes after bedtime and I should have known it was too good to be true. I'm so glad we have a video monitor. I glanced at it after fifteen minutes of pottering around downstairs only to see him about to crawl off the end of the bed! I raced upstairs and saved him but he was wide awake by this stage. I think I've lost my mind because I thought it would be a good idea to let him crawl around our room until he was tired. An hour and a half later... And he wasn't tired at all!!! but I insisted on rocking him to sleep. I'm sure he's overtired now as he can't sleep for more than 20 minutes.

I'm well aware this rant is an obnoxious 'first world problem' rant - we are about to spend a week in the Seychelles. I'm happy, I really am! Just tired and stressed!!

I promise to catch up on everyone tomorrow when we arrive. I hope you all have great nights tonight and a miracle occurs and all the babies STTN!


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## bababas

have fun on your vacation stephie.

i forgot to post how our night was.

he slept his first stretch 8.30pm - 01:30 am :happydance: :happydance: :happydance:

last time he did this was when he was 3 months. im not even sure if it was 0130. when i saw 01 that was enough to make me :happydance:

prolly wont happen ever again :haha: we woke up 7.30 well he wanted to sleep a bit more, but he pooped so i let my ds1 in to make noise.


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## polaris

SE - :hugs: I think it is the hardest when you are in that ambivalent place of "will I won't I". Those are certainly the times that I have felt most stressed about Clara's sleep. I am highly ambivalent about sleep training so I really feel your pain and your confusion. It's just so hard to know what to do for the best isn't it? I wish I had some decent advice for you, I remember you posted some really good advice for me when I was in a similar head-space which I found really very helpful. I think it was maybe just to try and make a decision on it one way or the other to get out of that horrible limbo of being neither one nor the other. But I'm sure you had a much better way of putting it.

Stephie - I hope you have a wonderful holiday and that the travel isn't too stressful. I do think sometimes they seem to sense it when we are really wanting them to sleep for some reason (e.g. to be well rested before the journey) and it generally seems to have the opposite effect. I hope you manage to get some rest now and your DH too, he must be exhausted! :hugs: 

Bababas, yay that is a brilliant stretch of sleep! Five hours! Maybe he is coming out of the four month sleep regression and he will start sleeping well now. You never know your luck!

Gaia - you have definitely had an awful run of it with teeth. Surely you must be due a break from teething soon??

AmyS - that's fantastic that she is sleeping so well at night time now! I'm so pleased for you. I'm sure naps will follow soon. Are you still planning on trying to get her to nap in the crib when she's home with you?

Hi Babybear, welcome. I agree with the others, I would stick with the swaddling for the moment if his startle reflex is still very strong. You would be just making things unnecessarily difficult for yourself to try to transition him now. In another month or so he might have lost the startle reflex and it will be an easier transition. I agree with the others, it's really hard work at your LO's age, especially with two, and you have quite a small gap so I'm guessing it is probably pretty full-on at the moment, you must be exhausted. :hugs:


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## polaris

I forgot to post my update. Things are a bit better today. Clara's cough is still there but not as bad as it was. It's also a bit cooler here today, thank goodness - but I tried to get a fan for Clara's room and all the shops are all totally sold out! I told you this country is just not set up for the heat! LOL.

I think I am going to try a longer wake-time before bed. I find it really hard to tell whether she's undertired or overtired because she kind of acts very similar for both (taking ages to settle and very physically active, crawling all over the bed and pulling my hair and chatting etc). I do feel a bit silly that I am always undecided between whether I'm putting her to bed way too early or way too late. She ended up with a wake-time of 4.75 today by the time she went to sleep, we had been aiming for 4 hours. Tomorrow I think I will try 4.5 hours before bed and see if it helps her to settle a bit more quickly.


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## Babybear85

Thanks guys I managed to get a sleeping bag that has poppers by the arms and it just zips up rather than wraps round so he can't break free its 0.5tog too which I am happy with so he won't overheat. Seems to be doing the trick. Someone asked how he's sleeping and it depends he can go 4 hours tops I am not too fussed I know its normal and accept it its just knackering is all. Hopefully he will sleep well with this new sleep bag


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## joo

I'm so sorry my eyes are too bleary to attempt to read through this thread, but I was gonna post my own thread and saw this title which completely sums up how I'm feeling at the moment. 

My baby is 19 weeks (20 this Thursday) and from about 3 months she stopped sleeping well and woke up a bit more. I got used to her waking up more, probably 2-3 times a night and just accepted it. Anyway the last couple of weeks have been awful because she wakes up even more and she won't settle herself anymore so I have to hold her. The last week has been the worst by far and now when I go to put her back in her crib when she's asleep she wakes straight away and cries and she wakes every hour, sometimes less! I can be holding her anything between 20-60mins before she'll go down, then I'll get back into bed, take me a bit to get back to sleep and then less than an hour later she's kicking off again. I'm so exhausted and just do not know what to do! I've started giving up and bringing her in bed with us - from being about 6 weeks old she's slept in our bed almost every morning but only after 4am for a couple of hours until OH gets up and takes her downstairs. Last night she ended up in bed with us before midnight! I'm scared to have her with us now due to the heat and also because I'm now sooo bloody tired it's so much more dangerous, but when it comes to it it's the only way I can get 2-3 hours good sleep! Does anyone have any experience/advice???


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## gaiagirl

OM Seychelles?! I am so jealous. I just looked at pics and now I am depressed that I am not going anywhere tropical until March 2014! HA!


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## bababas

polaris said:


> Bababas, yay that is a brilliant stretch of sleep! Five hours! Maybe he is coming out of the four month sleep regression and he will start sleeping well now. You never know your luck!

oh this thing happened again. when i go to the pool at 9pm. he woke up. OH tried to make him sleep. it worked. but then he kind of decided to want boob again.

he wasnt really sleepy when i put him to bed. he napped 5:15pm-5:50pm then was asleep 9pm. i wonder if the nap is too long or if he napped too much that this happens: waking up one hour after his bed time. or maybe i need to lengthen his awake time before the last nap.

he seems always to sleep well when we go to the inlaws though. then his 5pm nap turns into a 10min nap in the car, for some reason he wakes up when we are inside in-laws. then another 10 mins back home.... but since he missed his nap i let him sleep another 10 mins, so that like 6.30pm but though he wakes 6.30pm he is still fine with 8.30pm - 9pm down time. 

maybe it is just a coincidence or one of those days... :wacko:


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## bababas

joo said:


> I'm so sorry my eyes are too bleary to attempt to read through this thread, but I was gonna post my own thread and saw this title which completely sums up how I'm feeling at the moment.
> 
> My baby is 19 weeks (20 this Thursday) and from about 3 months she stopped sleeping well and woke up a bit more. I got used to her waking up more, probably 2-3 times a night and just accepted it. Anyway the last couple of weeks have been awful because she wakes up even more and she won't settle herself anymore so I have to hold her. The last week has been the worst by far and now when I go to put her back in her crib when she's asleep she wakes straight away and cries and she wakes every hour, sometimes less! I can be holding her anything between 20-60mins before she'll go down, then I'll get back into bed, take me a bit to get back to sleep and then less than an hour later she's kicking off again. I'm so exhausted and just do not know what to do! I've started giving up and bringing her in bed with us - from being about 6 weeks old she's slept in our bed almost every morning but only after 4am for a couple of hours until OH gets up and takes her downstairs. Last night she ended up in bed with us before midnight! I'm scared to have her with us now due to the heat and also because I'm now sooo bloody tired it's so much more dangerous, but when it comes to it it's the only way I can get 2-3 hours good sleep! Does anyone have any experience/advice???

:hugs:

sounds similar to my LO except i just nurse him back to sleep and he would be fine. he started waking more 3months. then the girls recommended more wake time after he started waking hourly in the night. and it worked wonders right away. he has been on 2 hour wake times and 1.5hr naps. except his last nap. i also needed a longer awake time before his bedtime. he is turning 5 months in 2 days.


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## bababas

gaiagirl said:


> OM Seychelles?! I am so jealous. I just looked at pics and now I am depressed that I am not going anywhere tropical until March 2014! HA!

me too :haha: we are going to NORTH of iceland in august. brbrbrbrbrbr. went one sumer to the north of iceland and i found it rather cold. now since sumer still hasnt arrived here, wish me luck on my trip :haha: prolly need to bring 100 outdoor clothes for my toddler oh and myself the LO and OH too. instead of shorts and t-shirt :cry: haha


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## gaiagirl

Ok bababas I probably should not complain, at least it's hot and sunny where I live!

My LO USUALLY wakes after his first night time sleep cycle. I've agonized and analyzed over why but there is no rhyme or reason!


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## bababas

gaiagirl said:


> Ok bababas I probably should not complain, at least it's hot and sunny where I live!
> 
> My LO USUALLY wakes after his first night time sleep cycle. I've agonized and analyzed over why but there is no rhyme or reason!

yes it seems like sometimes he does it sometimes not. :wacko: would like to find out why. would like to go to the movies again, but dont wanna leave him with OH if that is the case. :haha: 

so he woke up 1 hour after i put him down and only boob could make him sleep again, then i got a good stretch 0:30am-4:30am but from 5:30 he was a bit annoyed prolly his teeth again, so he was stuck on my breast from then on. and he woke up early. but still loved the 4 hours sleep i got. felt like i could just wake up now :haha:


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## stephie_corin

Amy! Chloe is sleeping so well! Amazing! You should feel proud. You and her are a good team! Am I wrong in that daycare used to do CIO? What made them change their napping approach? How is she during the day? Happy? If her night sleep stays as great as it is and she's happy I wouldn't sweat the naps! If she's grumpy and unhappy that's a different story of course. I love that they held her for her nap! So cute!

Gaia, you've had such a rough time with teeth! At least you've got some progress to show for it, I guess! I hope you managed to sneak away for his second nap. I can't remember, have you tried the pantley pull off?

SE, give him a few days and see if the teething settles. It will also give you a cooling off period to think about what you want to do and decide the best course of action without feeling pressurised. 

Bababas, I'm so glad you got some good sleep! I hope Polaris is right and this is a turning point for you! C also woke after his first sleep cycle at that age (and now it's most thereafter too!) I don't have a solution, I'm sorry. Perhaps you DH could try expressed milk in a bottle? By the way, your kids are so cute!!!

Polaris, how did you go with the longer awake time? I LOLed at the fans being sold out! I hope they get some more stock in soon!

Baby bear good luck with the new swaddle bag. We used something similar for my son when he transitioned from swaddling and it worked well.

Joo, welcome. Sorry to see you here. I ended up bed sharing full time with our boy because he was up so much and now I love it! If its something you and DH are open to, research safe bed sharing and, provided you follow the guidelines, it's surprisingly safe. My top tip is to practice nursing lying down. I wish we started this earlier as my boy can't get the hang of it. What is your day routine like?

So we made it to Seychelles and already it has been such a liberating experience for me!! Cully is on his THIRD nap and its 420pm and it's all fine, the world hasn't ended. He only took two 20 minute naps on the plane but he actually nursed! I didn't offer him any water (which I normally do) and I think this helped too.

He was amazing on the plane. He didn't cry once and was so happy. I need to trust him more and relax more about his routine. His night sleep is so bad that it's made me into a routine lunatic. I think a day like this has been just what I needed. Don't get me wrong, I still plan to follow his routine but I feel like a weight has been lifted off my shoulders and if for some reason the routine doesn't exactly work out, I won't be stressed about it.

I'm exhausted after last night and poor DH has slept 4 hours in the plane in about 60 hours but we are in paradise so it's all behind us now :)

Ok... Time to gently wake up this monkey!

Ps Polaris you were right all along about not worrying about the travel and you were also right that the nursing to sleep is a total blessing when travelling!


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## AmyS

Stephie - I had to google some images of Seychelles - WOW!!!! And I'm sure the pictures don't do it justice!

I'm so glad you are feeling relaxed and less stressed about the routine (or lack of) today. And he did so good on the plane! That's amazing!

I am very proud of Chloe - I tell her every morning when she wakes up smiling and happy. Daycare did do CIO, but they haven't been able to lately because she's waking up another baby who NEEDS to sleep, they say. She is usually pretty happy during the day, so I guess it's probably not worth putting too much worry into!

Have a GREAT time! Catch up on some sleep! I hope Cully enjoys his first taste of paradise!


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## mellyboo

My babys never going to sttn i don't think.


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## Noelle610

mellyboo said:


> My babys never going to sttn i don't think.

:hugs:

Lay it on us. What's going on?


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## mellyboo

We put her down around 9pm it used to be much earlier but were finding she is waking up MUCH LESS if we put her down at 9pm which helps because I don't enjoy waking up a million time's through out the night... 

She self settles going to bed she might crawl around her crib and play with whatever she can play with for 30 mins usually we just go in and put her on her side and give her the blanket and she cuddles up to it and sleeps.

The middle of the night is unpredictable she could be up 1-6 times a night still :S... I'm still feeding her every time but i've only been giving her a couple of sips and she pass's back out which i'm assuming this is why she is waking up because this is her comfort to go back to sleep... Ive tried water but she would flip out and actually start hitting my hands and etc and throwing me away and screaming till she got her sip of milk literally I dont even go through 1 oz of milk its literally sips.

I have no idea what to do or how to even get away from this because everything i've tried she just flips in the middle of the night which makes it easier to give her a sip of milk and go back to bed.... 

There is time's and this is going to sound so mean but i could just literally go back to bed because i am so tired of waking up a million times a night for the pass 9 months i could just sleep while she cried in the background.

i get help Oh works nights sun-thrusday.. so friday nights and saturday nights he helps and wakes up with her and lets me sleep in.. 

I talked to my Dr he told me to cut the bottle completely and just let her cry and do CC... But I dont have the energy maybe i need to GET the energy because i cant handle this anymore...

I need to be guided.

I should also add she is up around 8am-9am every single morning with out fail.
She has 2 naps a day which can be from 45-1hr30 mins depending on her day and what she feels like.

Her naps around 10am or 11am and 3pm.


I'm starting to get a little panic because i'm back at work the end of september and i won't be able to be myself if i'm always tired and can barely make a work day because i've been up all night giving sips of milk.


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## ticking.clock

Aubree started waking around 3am but nasty mum I am I refused to give her a bottle and after a few days she no longer woke up,

It's hard but you can do it if its what you really want xx


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## gaiagirl

Melly I'm sorry you're feeling lost. This baby sleep thing is just sooo hard for some babies. Hugs xxxxx. My LO wakes 3-6x every night for a sip or two, but because I BF and bedshare it doesn't impact my sleep much at all. I can imagine having to get up and give a bottle must be exhausting! I wish I could offer more advice, but I know some others here will be able to!

Stephie - it really IS liberating to go with the flow isn't it!? I like a routine but sometimes it's just not possible and that's when baby wearing and BFing become my best friends! Also bedsharing while traveling is amazing because there is no issue of baby being in a foreign place, wherever YOU are is fine! I'm so glad you're feeling zen and I bet C will respond to that and be easygoing too :) 

AFM - another great evening! And I am amazed at how long her slept in total! The one thing those sleep experts got right with my baby is that early bed does not equal early wakeup! He went to bed at 6:45 and didn't get up this morning until 7:30! He woke at 8, 11, 1, 5 but all were easy wakeups and I even had that 1.5 then 3 hour 8-11 stretch to do housework and watch TV and read! 4.5 hours to myself!? Woah!

The pantley pull off thing is usually a major fail with F unless he's asleep. Sometimes it's fine but mostly he cries and flips out and eventually just gets fully awake and I have to start all over. I have tried a few times to refuse nursing an he sobs hysterically and I end up nursing him again...it's a bit of a mess when I attempt that...

The second nap yesterday went exactly like that, but I old him "Ok, I will nurse you but I cannot lie here with you so you can nurse until you fall asleep and then I have to go do some things." Sounds crazy but then he nursed, quickly fell asleep and unlatched. Lol. Then took a 1.5hr nap alone. 

Probably just tired himself out sobbing, or maybe he's super intelligent ;);)


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## Noelle610

I agree with Ticking Clock, Melly my dear... It's going to be hard, but you need to stop feeding her every time she wakes. Would you consider just straight CIO? At this age it should be easier on both of you and it's easier to stay consistent with. I do think she should have an earlier bedtime, but you can push that back gradually once she learns to self-settle.


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## Noelle610

gaiagirl said:


> The second nap yesterday went exactly like that, but I old him "Ok, I will nurse you but I cannot lie here with you so you can nurse until you fall asleep and then I have to go do some things." Sounds crazy but then he nursed, quickly fell asleep and unlatched. Lol. Then took a 1.5hr nap alone.
> 
> Probably just tired himself out sobbing, or maybe he's super intelligent ;);)

I don't think that sounds crazy! I do that type of thing with Charlie all of the time. She sometimes like to play around at bedtime - throwing her paci and blankey out of the crib, screaming, and then laughing when mom comes in ;) I will often go back in, lay her down and tell her, "It's time to sleep now". If she does it like a million times, I'll go in, lay her down and say, "It's time to sleep now. Please don't throw your things out of the crib since you like sleeping with them. Mommy isn't going to come back unless you really need her". Usually that does the trick! I don't know if it's the tone or what, since she obviously doesn't understand exactly what I'm saying.


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## mellyboo

Thanks girls you are prob right we decided To do a 2nd family vacation we leave in a few weeks last time we went she pretty much sttn every night in the hotel ... Ill be doing a couple days after we get back I think it needs to be done her sleeping is getting so bad even going to Bed ever since she learned crawling she crawls the thing for 2 hours before going to bed .


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## gaiagirl

Yup. Knew it. Too good to be true. Back to the evening battle.

At least we have a new streak. 5 easy evenings in a row!


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## mellyboo

gaiagirl said:


> Yup. Knew it. Too good to be true. Back to the evening battle.
> 
> At least we have a new streak. 5 easy evenings in a row!

Its always like that eh


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## bababas

hi everybody hope everything is going fine. OH and ds1 start sumer vacation now. and my dad is coming in 5 days, so i will try to keep up with this thread, and try to read as much as possible. bit difficult with 3 guys messing the house up :haha: oh soon 4 guys when my dad arrives :haha: another visit is coming from germany. the baptism is around the corner. have to use the time to get a hair cut, massage while my dad is here, and OH is in vacation. also get the car cleaned at the shop OH never does it :haha:

i will try to keep up with the thread, apologise if i cant write a lot.

the night was fine today, but seems like i had insomnia. woke up Aron when i crawled into bed, he just drank and self settled. the home phone went off batteries and was beeping around 1am, and we couldnt find it. until it shut up by itself. after that 2am Aron wanted another sip. ummm and i just couldnt sleep. then i had to go to the dentist early. 

ok you guys take care. i will try to read daily :hugs:


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## mellyboo

anyone else find there babies naps got a little shorter once they started crawling? she will nap for like 40 mins and she won't even call for me after shes fine crawling her crib for as long as it takes me to go get her i swear i left her crawling for 30 mins before.

She was a crap napper before she got good now its going back to crap.. yesterday she had maybe 1 hour total sleep all day and she STTN?

I dont understand her.... I so thought i was going to be up all night with an over tired baby but thats not the case thinking about when she was STTN pretty much at the hotel her naps were super short at like 30-45 mins because we were out and about on vacation..

Maybe she just doesn't need much day time sleep.. but she looks aweful her eyes are red and baggy and constant rubbing if i dont atleast try to put her down.


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## stephie_corin

Amy, I'm probably being needlessly defensive about Chloe, but doesn't she need to sleep too?!? Although the fact they are holding her for naps is a win I guess :)

Gaia that's terrible, I'm so sorry! At least the good runs are getting longer! Do you have any idea what's changed tonight?

Bababas, have fun with your family sweetie and enjoy the haircut and massage! I'm sorry you couldn't sleep. I hate it when that happens with the phone. I also always lose my mobile but I have the opposite problem because it's on silent (so as not to wake the baby) so can't even call it to find it. Would you believe I spent an hour today of our vacation looking for my phone? Doh.

Melly it sounds like you are doing it tough. Cully wakes up lots too and while I am breastfeeding it takes its toll because he has to be picked up every time. So I do feel your pain! What happens differently on holiday? Maybe try to take note this trip and then replicate it at home? She's only a few weeks older than Cully and I think it's normal for them to still wake a bit at this age, but you need to balance that with your own sanity of course! Oh I just saw your second post. Why don't you try her on just cat naps and see how she goes? She'll probably get used to it pretty quickly and won't seem so tired. Maybe she's waking because she is under tired. I found with C that he was waking much more before I extended his last waketime. 

We are having such a nice time. We stuck with our 'at home' routine today so it will be interesting to see how he goes tonight. It's been a bit tough getting him down for naps. Just as he is falling asleep something will catch his eye and I can see his mind go 'oh, what's that... Wait, this isn't my room!' Then he has to look around whipping his head back and forth!

The weather is lovely here. A bit hot and humid but a really nice sea breeze comes in the afternoon to cool things down. We live for rain and windy days now we are in Dubai. It was 48 degrees centigrade the day before we flew out! DH is loving reconnecting with Cully. It makes me so happy to have our family back together. Poor DH actually said to me 'I'm so glad Cully remembers me!'

Gaia, your right about bed sharing making night times easy. He was quite quick to settle last night. We've got a two bedroom place so I've insisted DH spend a night or two in the other room to catch up on sleep but he's looking forward to nighttime snuggles again! 

I hope everyone has a great night! X


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## stephie_corin

Ps I mean nighttime snuggles with the baby! Lol. That wasn't an innuendo!


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## AmyS

Oh, Stephie, wink wink, I'm sure you'll get your snuggles too! Glad you're having such a great time!!

Melly - My daughter gets like that too - she might nap for 30 minutes during the day, and still sttn. It's crazy, and it doesn't seem to follow the rules!

Gaia - I would go with super intelligent! I wish Chloe would nap that long alone - wow!

bababas - I've been having insomnia too. Most of the time I can't get to sleep because my hubby snores. So annoying!
___________________

Chloe had the worst day at daycare yesterday, poor girl! She wouldn't nap, she wouldn't stop crying. They had to call me to come give her Motrin just in case she was teething. It was awful. And, I can't visit her anymore over my lunch hour. I've been doing that every day since she's been going, but now she's starting to have seperation anxiety. 

Surprisingly, with her total of 30 minutes of naps yesterday, she did sttn last night. I put her to sleep early at 6:15pm and the silly dogs woke her up at 5:15am. She would have slept longer if they hadn't been barking.


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## gaiagirl

Bababas - enjoy your family time! Hope you sleep better tonight :)

Melly - I agree with Stephie, personally I think it's normal but you have to be happy too ;) Def take note of why she's sleeping better on vacation!

Amy - that sounds awful, poor C! I'm terrified for daycare, the thought literally makes me sick. I'm sure she will adjust soon though...but that must be tough. At least the lack of sleep didn't equal a bad night! Yay 11 hours is amazing!!!!!!!!


Stephie - so glad things are going well! Yay for family time! I love when DH has a long weekend, we are going on a mini trip in a week or so for our anniversary and it'll be our first family getaway. A bit nervous about sleeping arrangements in hotel for nap and evening. What are you doing about leaving C in bed alone?

AFM - Nope, no clue why he refused to sleep until 10pm. The only thing different was that he slept 12 hours plus 3 hours of nap so honestly might have just really not been tired. Only got 9.5 last night though so let's hope tonight is different.


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## stephie_corin

Gaia, I thought long and hard about what to do and we decided to go for an apartment (I think a hotel suite would work too with a door that closes) and I bought our monitor along. For naps today DH sat in with us so he could watch Cully sleep and in the evenings I'm settling him as usual and then we are escaping into the living room to relax while he sleeps. I guess if F is a heavy sleeper you guys could even try transfer him to a stroller and go out for a meal? It wouldn't work for Cully though. We are happy just chilling at home though in the evenings :)

Amy, I am so sorry for poor Chloe. How sad you can't go to see her too! Did the pain relief help? Big hugs to you both!!


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## bababas

stephie_corin said:


> Bababas, have fun with your family sweetie and enjoy the haircut and massage! I'm sorry you couldn't sleep. I hate it when that happens with the phone. I also always lose my mobile but I have the opposite problem because it's on silent (so as not to wake the baby) so can't even call it to find it. Would you believe I spent an hour today of our vacation looking for my phone? Doh.

thank you. phones are evil! i miss the old phones, where there was no caller id, and you could do prank calls when bored :haha: and you just hang off the phone if you dont want anybody to call you :haha: im a grouch lol.


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## bababas

AmyS said:


> bababas - I've been having insomnia too. Most of the time I can't get to sleep because my hubby snores. So annoying!

oh i know that. since i co sleep now, OH is in another room :haha: sometimes i still hear him :haha: he started a really bad snore when a car bumped into him from behind and he had problems with his neck poor guy.


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## bababas

gaiagirl said:


> Yup. Knew it. Too good to be true. Back to the evening battle.
> 
> At least we have a new streak. 5 easy evenings in a row!

so sorry gaia. how long do you have to battle? my friend´s lo, she says every night is a battle. until it is 10-11pm. and he wakes up 6 sometimes. poor her too.


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## bababas

AmyS said:


> ___________________
> 
> Chloe had the worst day at daycare yesterday, poor girl! She wouldn't nap, she wouldn't stop crying. They had to call me to come give her Motrin just in case she was teething. It was awful. And, I can't visit her anymore over my lunch hour. I've been doing that every day since she's been going, but now she's starting to have seperation anxiety.
> 
> Surprisingly, with her total of 30 minutes of naps yesterday, she did sttn last night. I put her to sleep early at 6:15pm and the silly dogs woke her up at 5:15am. She would have slept longer if they hadn't been barking.

oh poor girl! :hugs: hope it gets better soon.


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## seaweed eater

:wave: and :hugs: everyone! I'm so sorry to have gotten so far behind. Things are still busy so I don't really think I have time for my usual catch up :( but I'll try to get to most of you quickly!

:hugs: to the newbies, I saw we had a couple of you several pages back -- 4 month sleep regression for at least one of you? Right? So tough!! Hang in there and please keep us posted. How have things been in the past couple days?

Gaia - I'm sorry your streak ended! Bummer. Hope tonight is good again!

Bababas - I'm sorry about the insomnia. So annoying when you finally get a chance to sleep and can't. I hope you enjoy your vacation and having family over!

Amy - :hugs: :hugs: my heart goes out to you. I can totally relate about the separation anxiety and not being able to visit. And Munchkin has had days just like that since he switched classrooms. It's heartbreaking to have to leave them so upset. Hang in there hon, just remember that she is fine and safe there and it's good for you to have some time to yourself too. Glad for the STTN though! I hope that continues!!

Stephie - I'm so so glad that everything is going so well! :thumbup: All three of you completely deserve a vacation (well, especially you and DH :lol:) and I hope it continues to be relaxing and great.

Melly - did you see Noelle's recent Baby Club post about a nap regression? That's supposed to be around 11 months so you'd be a bit on the early side, but it could be! Or maybe she's just getting more excited from crawling around, and therefore doesn't want to nap, but is also tiring herself out more?

Polaris? How are you doing?

I know I must have missed at least one or two people! I'm sorry.

AFM - still WIO, and, dare I say it? -- things have been a little better the past couple nights! No big freakouts, no 4:30 AM mornings, and some longer stretches. Obviously tonight is going to suck now, but what can you do.

He still won't nap in his crib at daycare. The last time he did was last Thursday. I'm not sure what to do. Somehow we are surviving but obviously it's not great. He naps for about 10-15 minutes in the teachers' arms and that's his entire nap. We could continue WIO on this too, or I have two other ideas: I could start bringing him in early instead of letting him take his first nap at home, so that he's even more tired there and (I'm assuming) will eventually have to nap; or I could talk to the teachers about doing a little sleep training at daycare (having him SS a couple times in his new crib so that he can stay asleep in there when they transfer him). What do you guys think? I don't have very much confidence in either of those ideas, though!


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## bababas

seaweed eater said:


> He still won't nap in his crib at daycare. The last time he did was last Thursday. I'm not sure what to do. Somehow we are surviving but obviously it's not great. He naps for about 10-15 minutes in the teachers' arms and that's his entire nap. We could continue WIO on this too, or I have two other ideas: I could start bringing him in early instead of letting him take his first nap at home, so that he's even more tired there and (I'm assuming) will eventually have to nap; or I could talk to the teachers about doing a little sleep training at daycare (having him SS a couple times in his new crib so that he can stay asleep in there when they transfer him). What do you guys think? I don't have very much confidence in either of those ideas, though!

oh poor thing. is it possible to have the pram or something like that. in ds1 baby nursery (he was 14 months then) we came with the pram. where they push him to sleep. like back and forth. it was a big one. my OH used to be in it. an old silvercross or how you call them. so he had enough space. good that MIL kept it :haha:


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## AmyS

SE - If you are comfortable letting them sleep train, that might be the quickest way to resolve the nap issue. I would give them some definite boundaries though based on how you want them to do it. Chloe's daycare does cio for naps too, and it does help. We have regressed though since she no longer has the rock n play to sleep in there. Very hard decision for you!


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## seaweed eater

Thanks. Bababas, we can't bring a pram in, as they are pretty restrictive about what they will use with the babies because of their licensing. Amy, I would probably want to be there for the first couple times at least to make it less stressful for him. Similar to what we do at home but just in the nap room at daycare. I just wish he could have his blankie with him! I know that would make it a lot easier since he's so used to having it at home :( I'm sure they'll say no but I think I'll ask them if he can have it if I write them a note or something.


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## AmyS

SE - Nothing in the crib at my daycare either but they let Chloe hold a burp rag! Not supposed to, but it calms her down.


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## mellyboo

Thanks girls! .... Vacation we are constantly on the go and gets so tired she would sleep in the car for cat naps... Maybe she is under tired even tho I think she's to tired!


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## seaweed eater

His blankie is smaller than a burp rag. DH calls it his "napkin" :haha:

I have to take him in early tomorrow anyway so we'll see if he can get a nap in sometime during the day. That's why he napped (for 20 minutes) last week, too. If not...we're screwed.


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## gaiagirl

Stephie we have a one bedroom reserved too, but I meant about leaving him in the bed in the evening? Since its not on the floor? I'm a bit unsure what to do about that. Ill be bringing our magic foam bumpers for the bed but still. F is FAST. 

SE I'm sorry naps at daycare still haven't improved! I can't believe he doesn't just pass out, that's crazy! I guess that 10-15 min is refreshing him. 

We had a super busy day today and F took three small naps, now is not wanting to go to bed again! Sighhhhh. He's soooo busy and active he just won't stop moving! To be fair he had a nap at 5 in the car so I shouldn't have even tried bed before 8. It's 8:20 now and he is dropping off...


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## stephie_corin

Gaia sorry, I misunderstood. We have a video monitor so we take it turns to watch the monitor. I've already had two scares though where I've taken my eyes off the monitor for a few minutes and looked back to see him crawling to the edge. We rearranged the room so the bed is in the corner and I pushed the travel cot at the foot of the bed. I also built a pillow wall last night which seemed to have helped. He sat up but didn't try to scale over the wall!

Do you have a video monitor? If we didn't have one I would just put the mattress on the floor... If the room is too small, could you phone ahead and ask them to remove the base and just start with it on the floor when you get there?

SE, good luck today! I hope he manages to take a nap at daycare.


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## gaiagirl

Lol, I can imagine the staffs confusion about that! Bed on the floor!? Hahahahahah! 

Will have to see when we get there I guess...I asked for a crib in the room, wishful thinking...


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## polaris

LOL we are going to Wales in September and requested a cot too! Ha! Yeah I can see that happening. But it is a useful barrier for one side of the bed and you can also use it to put all their clothes etc in!


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## stephie_corin

Polaris - that is exactly what we are using the travel cot for! Lol! Baby storage and bed barrier... I think the owners think we are really precious because I asked the cleaning lady (who is the owner's sister) to please not spray air freshener because it's bad for the baby and there were a few raised eyebrows at our bed configuration.


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## polaris

We have a new tooth this morning, number 5! She actually wasn't too bad with this one, although I'm hoping it might have been a contributing factor in how long it's taking her to settle recently. I haven't dared to do the longer wake times yet, she just seems SOO tired coming up to four hours that I just bring her up to bed and she feeds to sleep perfectly but then comes wide awake again and won't settle for another 45 minutes approx. Very frustrating!! I have just cancelled my yoga class because I've missed the last two weeks because I couldn't get her settled in time. Boo hoo!


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## gaiagirl

That sounds so much like my life Polaris! I wanted to do an evening bootcamp class but haven't been able to. I'm holding out hope for the fall...lol.

I wonder if that is classic teething, because the problem literally started for us when he started teething in March. But it's been so long now, it's hard to think its anything except just his M.O.

OT of sleep but F just went 3 days without poop! Crazy considering we do BLW and all he eats is BM and blueberries. I finally put him in the 'poopersaucer' this morning because it tends to help him along. And voila! Lol. 

It is bizarre though how much effort it seems to be taking, for BM and blueberries...

He ended up going to sleep just after 8 and waking this morning just after 6. It was 29 degrees in his room and he was super restless all evening so hoping things cool down, his tummy is more settled and tonight is a bit better.


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## stephie_corin

Polaris, could you take her outside for a few moments just before the 4 hour mark then do bath and bed? Sorry you had to cancel your class!

Gaia, Cully barely eats anything and he's had periods when he only poops every 2-3 days. I think it's just their tummies adjusting to solids. Lol at the blueberries and breastmilk diet! We joke Culver is surviving on breastmilk and cucumbers! X


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## bababas

sorry about your yoga classes polaris. i would like to do some classes in the evening too. but unpredictably he sometimes wakes up after one hour and will only settle on boob. would also love to go to the movies again.... guess i have to wait we will see how long :wacko: he wont really take the bottle :wacko:


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## AmyS

Oh, the dream of getting some time to ourselves at nights! haha! Dream big girls! I would like to: exercise, clean, read a book, or watch a movie. So far, I haven't done any of this, even though she is sleeping well at the moment. I am NOT sleeping well, so I am still going to bed early.

Stephie and Gaia - I finally found one food that Chloe will eat - sweet potatoes! But did you know that if they eat too much sweet potatoes, it can turn their nose orange? And Gaia, the poopersaucer! haha - Chloe has one of those too, but I freak out if she starts pooping in it, because that means HUGE mess for me! 

Polaris - That's too bad that you can't make your yoga class. We went through that a few weeks ago (or longer?), eyes pop open, and then wide awake again. I agree with Stephie about taking her outside if you can at the 4 hour mark. That always helps me get a little more wake time out of Chloe.

bababas - I love going to the movies - I try not to pay attention to what's coming out anymore, since we probably won't see anything until it's out on DVD.
______________________
Last night, I had to resettle Chloe a couple of times. I'm sure it's because her last nap ran late. It wasn't too bad though, since I was awake anyway. Darn insomnia. And then the stupid dogs woke her up too early again. 

And today was my first day of not visiting her at daycare over my lunch hour. Very sad. I called and checked on her though!


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## Noelle610

AmyS said:


> Oh, the dream of getting some time to ourselves at nights! haha! Dream big girls! I would like to: exercise, clean, read a book, or watch a movie. So far, I haven't done any of this, even though she is sleeping well at the moment. I am NOT sleeping well, so I am still going to bed early.


Amy, I so relate to this! I had a terrible time teaching myself to STTN after Charlie started doing so! I think it was anxiety related; I had to go on some medication. Hopefully you don't go that route.

Once you can finally relax and have an "adult" bedtime, it's nice. Mine is 9pm, so still early, but it gives me enough time to watch some bad TV and eat dinner with DH. I even read a bit before bed. It's bliss! Every evening I thank my lucky stars because I know what it feels like to dread the night time.


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## stephie_corin

I'm dreaming of watching an entire episode of the new Vampire Diaries without having to run upstairs because baby boy is about to climb off the bed!

Amy, I'm so sorry you are struggling with insomnia. I get it too - it's hard to switch your mind off sometimes. I find reading before sleep really helps me unwind.

Edit - did I say climb off the bed? I meant hurling himself face first onto the tile floors off the bed.


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## AmyS

Noelle - I haven't quite figured out why I'm not sleeping, other than I'm not used to sleeping with the 2 dogs and hubby again yet. I just feel wide awake when I lay down, even though I'm not. I'm not ready to try any meds yet, since I don't like to feel groggy if I need to get up with her during the night. Hopefully it works itself out soon! 

And it is very liberating to be able to lay her down in bed and know that I have a couple of hours to do whatever I want because she (most likely) won't be waking back up until morning! 

My normal bedtime is usually 9 too! That's late enough for me!


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## Noelle610

Amy, it may clear on it's own. I was an extreme case. Another mom on BnB used to say she had PTSD from her LO's night wakiings and I thought that was a bit extreme... Until I experienced it! It's just hard to relax. Some of my mom friends had the same experience and didn't need meds. I think I'm just weird :haha:


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## AmyS

stephie_corin said:


> I'm dreaming of watching an entire episode of the new Vampire Diaries without having to run upstairs because baby boy is about to climb off the bed!
> 
> Amy, I'm so sorry you are struggling with insomnia. I get it too - it's hard to switch your mind off sometimes. I find reading before sleep really helps me unwind.

I've been looking for a good book to get into, that just might be the ticket to winding down for the night. 

OT - But are you a VD fan???? :happydance: My favorite show! Yes, I know how old I am. But seriously, I love it. And not just for the hot looking men.


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## polaris

Update - I finally tried the 4.5 hour wake-time before bed and it worked really well! Hard to stretch her for the extra half an hour and she was getting really tetchy by the end of it, but it only took me 15 minutes to settle her which is really unheard of recently! Thanks for the suggestions everyone and for encouraging me to try it. Hopefully it keeps working! It would be just an added bonus if she sleeps well tonight too but I don't want to be too optimistic.

Sorry for not commenting on others' posts, will try to come back and comment later.


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## gaiagirl

Amy, he's wearing a diaper still!!!!!! Omg I would not let him just poop directly INTO the exersaucer...

Vampire Diaries huh? I keep seeing it on Netflix, maybe I should try it! I'm nap hostage often enough!

Polaris that's great! I hope tonight goes well :):):):)


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## polaris

SE - What time are daycare trying for his second nap? Might he need a longer wake-time or maybe a shorter morning nap? Could you post his current approximate schedule? I think the second nap is generally harder to achieve than the morning nap so it might be worth trying to have him take the morning nap in daycare if you want them to do sleep training with him there. Just because in my experience they generally settle much easier for the first nap of the day. 

Amy - so sorry you are having a hard time sleeping even now that Chloe is. There definitely is an adjustment period and I actually never went back to sleeping as well as I used to before having Thomas. Hopefully your sleep will settle down soon!

Stephie - arggh, just as well you are keeping a close eye on the video monitor! Hope you are enjoying the holiday and that your DH is beginning to unwind now after such a hectic work schedule in the lead up to the holiday.

Bababas - Clara always did the 45 minute wake-up too so I could never get out in the evenings. Now she has finally started doing 2+ hours in the evenings (yay!) so I thought I could finally get out to a class, but she's not actually going to sleep until 8.30 which is too late! :dohh: Clara won't take a bottle at all, we have given up.

Gaia - LOL at getting bunged up from BM and blueberries! It is a big adjustment for their system though starting on solids. I do remember Thomas's sleep was quite disrupted by digestion issues while he adjusted to eating solid food. Clara's sleep was awful when she was starting solids too but when is it any other way? LOL.


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## bababas

polaris said:


> Bababas - Clara always did the 45 minute wake-up too so I could never get out in the evenings. Now she has finally started doing 2+ hours in the evenings (yay!) so I thought I could finally get out to a class, but she's not actually going to sleep until 8.30 which is too late! :dohh: Clara won't take a bottle at all, we have given up.


yay that the 4.5 hr stretch worked wonders :happydance: hope it continues.

yea all i dare to do is go to the pool which is a 3 minute drive (i would so rather wanna walk). ofcourse i drive so i can be home early so that OH wont be home with grumpy aron in case he wakes up. luckily he didnt today. :happydance:

oh i gave up on this bottle thing :haha: i have pumped myself when i go somewhere with ds1 and OH is at home with aron, but most just gets to waste. it is like he only wants to nibble 20ml. ones he drank though, but it never happened again. :dohh: i gave up, but still i leave OH with pumped milk just in case.


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## AmyS

Gaia - You made me laugh so hard! I assumed he was wearing a diaper - I just meant Chloe makes a mess when she jumps around while pooping! She manages to get it everywhere. WITH a diaper on haha

And yes you should watch Vampire Diaries! It's addictive!


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## stephie_corin

Vampire Diaries is fantastic! Even DH loves it! 

Polaris, I'm so glad the longer wake time worked for you! x


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## seaweed eater

I'm sorry I've been such a terrible thread citizen. This week has been very busy, and I'm very confused. LO is barely napping and seems tired during the day, but he is sleeping much better at night. Last night was actually the best one ever (asleep 7-4:30 and 5-6, and I got my longest stretch since he was born, too). Is it possible that he's too overtired to be waking up at night? I didn't think that was possible.

He was at daycare the whole day yesterday and he had one 35-min nap in his crib. Which is a success, but one that's hard to get excited about! I can't really rearrange my schedule next week to go in and sit with him while he SS for all his naps, and I'm not going to ask them to sleep train him without me there. I'm not comfortable with it. :(

Hope you are all feeling well today and had a good night last night :hugs:


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## AmyS

seaweed eater said:


> I'm sorry I've been such a terrible thread citizen. This week has been very busy, and I'm very confused. LO is barely napping and seems tired during the day, but he is sleeping much better at night. Last night was actually the best one ever (asleep 7-4:30 and 5-6, and I got my longest stretch since he was born, too). Is it possible that he's too overtired to be waking up at night? I didn't think that was possible.
> 
> He was at daycare the whole day yesterday and he had one 35-min nap in his crib. Which is a success, but one that's hard to get excited about! I can't really rearrange my schedule next week to go in and sit with him while he SS for all his naps, and I'm not going to ask them to sleep train him without me there. I'm not comfortable with it. :(
> 
> Hope you are all feeling well today and had a good night last night :hugs:

We are going through the same thing with very short naps at daycare. Yesterday, she had two 30-minute naps, and the other day she took one morning nap for 35 minutes. And she is sleeping really good at night. Weird, isn't it? Not at all what we've read to expect! 

Maybe by the time you are able to sit with him to SS, things will have gotten better on their own! I would call 35 minutes a success too, since it is progress in the right direction. 

Glad you got a nice stretch of sleep in last night!! That's the best!! :happydance:


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## Noelle610

seaweed eater said:


> I'm sorry I've been such a terrible thread citizen

This made me LOL

I just wanted to throw some sympathy out for the short naps. 

Charlie has been a victim of short naps or NO naps at daycare recently. She has always slept with her buddy. They're the same age (Jane is one day older than her!) and they used to comfort each other. They napped so well together! Now it's a huge distraction. They just stand in their cribs and talk to each other. And if one wakes early, it wakes the other. It's awful! My provider wants to separate them, but she has limited room. 

Thankfully she's still STTN, but I worry it will start to catch up to her. She's had a lot of sleep cries early in the evening and I know she's overtired. And she's a fussy mess before bed. Yuck.


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## stephie_corin

SE, Amy and Noelle - I'm so sorry about the short day care naps! That would be a huge source of anxiety for me so you have my sympathies.

SE, wow - munchkin is just sleeping so well at night!! That is amazing! I know you said he is tired during the day but I'm convinced some babies do need less day sleep. Anecdotally, good friends of ours have a chronic cat napper who used to take 2 x 30 minute naps and STTN. I hope Munchkin either gets used to the short naps and is back to his happy self or you are able to sort his naps out at day care. Big hugs to you both.

Amy, I hope gorgeous Chloe sorts her naps out too, but congratulations on the great night sleep! Have you finished season 4 of VD? I'm up to episode 6 and this season is fantastic!!

Noelle, that is such a cute story!!! I love the thought of the two of them napping together and now chatting away at nap time. I can totally see them as naughty teenagers!


Things with us seem to change on a daily basis. I'm sure his front teeth are so close to cutting through. He's been consistently taking a short cat nap around 830am and a longer 1.5 hour afternoon nap around 12.30 and pushing through for a 5 hour awake time before bed. Last night he was up and down all evening trying to crawl off the bed (Gaia - please take a video monitor on your trip!! It's so scary having them on a high bed!). He finally settled at midnight and slept through until 3am! And then after a feed and some rocking, slept trough until 530am!!! It could be similar to the short nappers and he was just too tired to wake, but that 3 hour stretch felt amazing!

Seychelles is really great, the fresh air is wonderful and I am drinking lots of fresh coconut water! It's lots of fun... The local guys sell them on the beach and hack them open with a machete in front of you. Cully is loving practicing his new straw drinking skills with the coconuts.

Oh, one exciting development I forgot to mention: since shaking up his routine he is now breast feeding at 830ish, 1230ish and 7ish... But I am having some success with an afternoon feed around 5pm! I'm so pleased!! It's the first time he's feed at a non-sleep time for months and months.

Hope everyone is well xxx


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## gaiagirl

Stephie that's fantastic! So glad you are having a good time! I can't imagine F only eating at nap time. I swear the other day he nursed 7 times in 12 hours...how I'm going to work 7-4 in 4 months is beyond me...

Also glad to hear vacation with a baby can still be awesome! I'm already nervous that Hawaii in March will just be exhausting and no fun. Lol.

I asked the hotel next weekend about the bed on the floor and they were pretty thrown for a loop lol. We may just put the mattress on the floor ourselves. OR just use the crib mattress on the floor. I am bringing our foam bed bumpers too and also we can use our tablet and an iPhone as a video monitor!


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## polaris

Just a quick update - the longer wake time before bed really seems to be working well. This evening I brought her up after 4 hours 20 minutes and she nursed to sleep and was fast asleep within 10 minutes! A few other factors: her tooth is also fully through the gum now and she is 47 weeks old so we are just coming out of a WW and I also managed to get a fan for her room so it's a bit less stifling up there. So between everything, tonight was the easiest bedtime in a long time!

Stephie, so pleased that you are having such a lovely holiday. Just as an aside, Clara usually only nurses at naptime and bedtime. She does have the occasional random feed during the day but not every day, so most days she only has three feeds a day (plus numerous night feeds). I guess maybe if she would take more milk during the day she wouldn't need to feed so much at night. But to be honest I'm just letting her do her own thing and trusting that it will all sort itself out with time.

Sorry to hear that so many babies are suffering from short/no naps at daycare. I do think it must be hard for them to settle to sleep in a daycare environment especially once they are a bit older and nosier! Interesting that they all seem to be sleeping well at night though!


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## Noelle610

Every time Charlie takes an hour plus to fall asleep I think of you girls :haha: :cry:


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## seaweed eater

Stephie, Seychelles sounds amazing! :cloud9: So glad you're enjoying yourselves. Glad to hear about the extra daytime nursing session, too! :thumbup:

Gaia, Munchkin nurses/takes bottles 7-8 times in 13 hours most days (and sometimes it's more). It just requires a lot of pumping, but it can be done! Also, it seems like F is doing better with solids so maybe that will be replacing a little more of his milk by the time you go back.

Polaris, hooray for easier bedtimes! :happydance: Hope it continues!

Noelle, what's going on? I hope everything is ok! I couldn't help smiling at the description of C and her buddy at daycare, but I'm sorry it has meant crummy naps!

Poor Munchkin has a fever today :cry: he just woke 20 minutes after falling asleep so I'm a little scared for tonight. At least we had a few good nights in between.


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## polaris

I take it all back - the B&B curse got me good last night! We had a really terrible night and I really have no idea why. :cry: She was just really unsettled, waking very frequently and unable to get back to sleep for ages. I did give pain relief even though I don't think she is teething but it didn't seem to help much. Sometimes I just run out of reasons why she's not sleeping. I really hope it was just a once off or I will be picking all your brains for suggestions.


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## Noelle610

NOOOO BnB curse. I think Charlie is just in this weird transitional phase where 2 naps are too many and 1 is not enough. She woke at 7 yesterday and then napped from 9:30-10:30 and again from 1:45-3:30. So of course she wasn't tired enough to sleep at bedtime. For some reason, I just find that really stressful!

Sorry about the fever SE- hope tonight goes well! Sometimes Charlie sleep better when she's ill, so perhaps that will be the case for you.

Stephie, very jealous of your vacation! So glad you are enjoying yourself.


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## seaweed eater

Aww Polaris, I'm sorry you had such a rough night. :hugs: Really hope it was a one off and tonight is back to being better.

Noelle, darn nap transitions! :growlmad: I can understand why you would find it stressful that she's not tired at night. It's hard when you can count on that to be a special, relaxing time and instead you have to worry about it!

Munchkin has never been a baby who sleeps better when he's sick, and last night certainly followed the pattern...hoping for a better one tonight!


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## gaiagirl

Awwww Polaris that is rough! So hard when things take a step back. I'm sure it'll just be a blip and she will be back on track.

SE I hope Munchkin is feeling better today! That is another thing I'm not looking forward to about day care - the germs!

Noelle, I get stressed over battling bedtime too, obviously since I write about it constantly here! Lol. I know I have lots of nap transitions ahead so maybe I should just get over it. Soooo hard though!

Ok so to avoid the BnB curse ill word this carefully. We had some good and some bad last night. F took forever to settle for bedtime, even though he was clearly tired. But once he fell asleep at 8:30 he slept until 1:30!!!!!!! For him, that long of an evening stretch is unheard of! Night was great after that too, even though we tried cloth and had a leak by 7am. It didn't wake or disturb him though.

So I know this wont be every evening but I was so pleased with him!


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## seaweed eater

Gaia, that's wonderful! :happydance: Stay away curse!!

Munchkin had two colds in a row right after he started daycare, but then nothing until this. I was expecting he'd have something every three weeks for months at least! He missed most of the winter cold season though so next year will probably be pretty bad for us.

Poor LO, such a rough day. :( He can't stay asleep at all. Broke down and gave him ibuprofen during the day, he was just soooo miserable. I really hope this is the worst of it and it starts getting better on its own.


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## mellyboo

I'm having a hard time with jords 2nd nap lately there's been days where she won't take it .. It's becoming stressful!


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## Noelle610

Melly how long is the first nap?


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## stephie_corin

Gaia, I'm so pleased for you that you had a great night! I'm nervous about day care germs too, although SE's experience is reassuring! I'm already on the email list for our nursery and I keep getting scary emails about weird illnesses I've never heard of (hand foot and mouth!?!).

SE, I really hope munchkin has a speedy recovery. Poor little guy, it's been a rough few weeks for you both.

Polaris, I'm so sorry about your bad night. Fingers crossed things are back on track soon!

Noelle, so sorry about your bedtime battles!!

Melly sorry about the nap struggles!

We had a bad night last night. I feel like he has been teething his two front teeth for months. They are so swollen and look so close to cutting through. I'm not sure if this is what disturbed his sleep last night but it could also be his terrible naps yesterday. He did 20 minutes in the morning and 45 in the afternoon. I thought - great! He'll do a Cloe/Munchkin/Jords and sleep really well ... Nope!

Fingers crossed things improve for us all soon and Gaia's good luck continues!


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## AmyS

polaris - Glad the longer wake time is working well for you! That's very encouraging. Hopefully that one night was just a fluke, or attributed to teething or something.

SE - Is Munchkin better yet?? I hate when our babies get sick! Makes me feel so helpless.

Gaia - Great update! That's a good stretch of sleep.

Stephie - Are you back yet, or still on vacation? The front top teeth must take forever to come in! A coworker's boy has been working on them for over a month now, and they seem to be more sore than the bottom ones. (OT: I have seen all of Vampire Diaries season 4 - I DVR during the season, and watch when hubby isn't around.)

Noelle - Have you thought about a plan for Charlies's naps at daycare? Hopefully, this will work itself out soon for you! 

For those wondering about daycare germs, Chloe constantly had cold symptoms when we started. She'd have a really stuffy nose, then it would clear up, and within a few days it'd be bad again. They all chew on the same toys during the day, and most of the babies have snot running down their face, so it's no wonder she caught it all! But, she is one of the healthiest babies there, they said. She never runs a fever or gets "really" sick. Also, germs now mean she might be more resistant later (hopefully). And I've noticed that we've been snot-free for a few weeks now! Yippee! 

I did a mud run this weekend with a bunch of gals from work, and all I wanted to do was sleep after. Chloe decided otherwise! I think the short naps all week caught up with her, so she was up at least 7 times. Last night was much better, thankfully, but she was still up too early for the day - 5:15am. Oh well.


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## stephie_corin

We are flying back tomorrow. Wish me luck! It will be the first time we've had him out past bedtime since he was a few months old and could sleep in the stroller! Bedtime is 7ish and we land at 8pm and have an hour drive back home. 

I'm trying to decide if I should: 1) get him up at 530 and do a cat nap at 8, 12 and hope for a long sleep in the plane around 4ish OR 2) try and get him to sleep in and push the first nap out as long as possible (it wouldn't go past 10.30/11 I think) and then do a second nap on takeoff around 4pm. I don't really fancy getting up at 530am but the three naps is possibly the better option.

Any, thanks so much for the germ reassurance! I'm sorry Chloe slept badly after your run!


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## seaweed eater

Stephie, three naps sounds better from the perspective of not being sleep deprived, but would he do it? Sometimes I've planned days around three naps but Munchkin just won't go down a third time anymore. Being in the plane for the third one could make the difference, though. Do you have a time difference to get over, too? If you're traveling west across time zones that would be another reason to try extending his WTs and making 4 the second nap...

Sorry, that probably wasn't very helpful! Good luck!! I hope it goes as smoothly as the way out did, and that tonight is better than last night. :hugs: I can't believe how fast your week away has gone...I'm sure you feel the same way! ;)

So funny about the weird illnesses. At our center whenever a kid gets one of a particular set of common illnesses (conjunctivitis, roseola, hand foot and mouth etc) they post a flier near the sign-in area with information about it. It's a weird experience to read about diseases every time we arrive there. I always think someone should do a psychology study to see what the effects of that are on parents' moods :haha: But yeah, I have definitely heard that they have stronger immune systems once they start school, pretty sure there's been research on it.

Amy, sorry about your rough nights :hugs: glad last night was better, hope things are back to normal tonight! Glad about the snot-free weeks :thumbup: it's great that Chloe hasn't been sick beyond just cold symptoms. Sounds like she has a strong immune system already.

Munchkin has no fever today, knock on wood, so hopefully things are getting better. Last night was rough but not as bad as the previous night. As a side note, I've been sleeping on the floor in his room (he can't get through sleep cycles on his own anyway so I'm not as worried about disturbing him) and I think it does make a difference to how rested I feel in the morning, compared to sleeping down the hall...hmm.


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## seaweed eater

Do any of the rest of you think back with amusement about how naive you were about sleep in the first month after your LO was born? I could swear he was up every 3 hours when he was a newborn. I thought that's the toughest it would get! :haha:


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## AmyS

seaweed eater said:


> Do any of the rest of you think back with amusement about how naive you were about sleep in the first month after your LO was born? I could swear he was up every 3 hours when he was a newborn. I thought that's the toughest it would get! :haha:

Very naïve! I just thought it would keep getting better and better. At 2 months old, she was waking 3 times a night, and my hubby was complaining....and I told him, "Just give it time, and she'll be sttn like everyone else's baby!" Naïve and overly optimistic. 

Now, when she sttn, I tell him, "Just give it time, she'll be back to punishing mommy soon."


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## polaris

seaweed eater said:


> Do any of the rest of you think back with amusement about how naive you were about sleep in the first month after your LO was born? I could swear he was up every 3 hours when he was a newborn. I thought that's the toughest it would get! :haha:

LOL oh yes definitely! 

Thomas was a really dreadful sleeper as a newborn so when Clara was doing three hour stretches as a newborn I was convinced that I had lucked out and got a good sleeper this time. I was boasting to everyone about how I was sure she was going to sleep through the night early. Ha, you would think I would have known better seeing as it's my second time doing this.

Stephie, good luck with the plane journey home. I would personally go for trying to get him to sleep in and going for the second nap at 4 p.m. on the plane. At least then he would be starting the day well rested and better able to cope with the disruption to his routine, whereas if you get him up earlier than usual he will be starting the day tired and there's no guarantee that he would even take a third nap when he's not used to it. 

SE, glad that Munchkin is a bit better today. It's horrible when they are unwell and fever tends to really disrupt sleep in my experience. No harm giving pain meds when he's so clearly unwell and miserable, poor thing.

Amy, sorry about the bad night, Chloe has been doing so well with night time sleep, it must make it worse when she wakes up so often after you are getting used to nice long stretches. :hugs:

Melly - can you post your daily routine?

Gaia - yay for such a lovely long stretch in the evening! It does give you hope that eventually this sleep nightmare will resolve itself, doesn't it?

As for me, I had a truly awful bedtime with the two of them yesterday, I already posted in Toddlers about it so I'm not going to go into it again, but I basically totally lost it with Thomas for no reason just because I was stressed out that Clara wouldn't go to sleep. It was really awful and I've been feeling quite down about it today. :cry: 

In other news, I am wondering if Clara's extra disturbed sleep at the moment is partly developmental. She is really just doing new things every day at the moment. She has started saying "no" and "bye bye" and she understands so much more language and will follow instructions like "clap your hands" or "wave bye bye". She is also standing unsupported more and more each day and I'm sure she is really close to taking her first steps. So maybe it's not surprising that she's having a bit of trouble sleeping when she has so much going on? I am enjoying her so much during the day at the moment, but I do just wish she would sleep a teeny tiny bit better!


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## Noelle610

Stephie we are just playing it by ear at daycare. We are really on transition, finally... And I hate it! She seems to want to nap at 10am and that just doesn't work for any of us :haha:

Re: newborn sleep... Charlie wouldn't sleep for more than 45 minutes at a time! She never had a sleepy phase. Torture. But everyone told me it would be better at 6 weeks :rofl:


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## Matilda85

Can I join? 
I am so in need of some sleep advice. My little man has just turned six months. He use to sleep brilliantly, doing 7 hour plus stints, but that all kind of went downhill once the 4 month sleep regression occurred. He got back to normalish around 5 months but the last few weeks has been waking every 2 hours. It is the worst he has ever slept and I so need some suggestions
I am not keen to do cc or cio. I kind of think it is my own fault. When 4 months hit i was desperate so let him nap on me for his day sleeps, in a woven wrap, and then held his hand during the night through the cot bar. He weaned himself on the hand hold at around 5 months but now whenever I put him in the cot he wakes up and cries. I can't stand seeing him cry and pick him up. Have tried sh pat but it seems to wake him more. The instant I pick him up he falls asleep on me. Would love any advice or suggestions.


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## Matilda85

Also I think I may have formed a feed to sleep association as he loves to fall asleep having milk. He is ebf and we just started solids a few weeks ago. Seems to coincide with his sleep turning to crap.


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## seaweed eater

Aww Polaris :hugs: :hugs: you have a really tough job with the two of them and you are doing it wonderfully. They are lucky to have you. All of us do things we regret in really stressful moments. Please don't be hard on yourself.

It really does seem like Clara has had a developmental spurt lately. So exciting, but I'm sure it is making sleep tough.

Noelle, sorry about the nap transition! :hugs: I'm quite sure that's exactly what's going to happen with Munchkin when it's time. I can't believe C never slept more than 45 minutes as a newborn...I can't imagine what you must have thought and felt!

Matilda, welcome and sorry you are here :hugs: 6 months is exactly when most of us found this thread, if you look back. It can be a surprisingly tough time for some babies.
Here are my ideas for you:
1) Nap transition. Can you post your daily routine? Things are often changing around that age and longer wake times can help them sleep better. Won't teach your LO to self-settle, but at least maybe you won't have as much trouble putting him down or have to wake up as much.
2) Shh pat is really useless for many babies, so don't worry about that if it didn't work for yours. Have you heard of or tried the No Cry Sleep Solution gentle removal/Pantley pull off technique (it goes by a lot of names)? That is a gentle solution that could work for you. If it doesn't work then you may have to decide on either WIO or letting him cry.
3) If WIO ends up seeming right, is bedsharing an option you'd be willing to explore?
4) Does LO have any signs of allergies or food sensitivities? This is probably not the culprit. But sometimes food sensitivities do disrupt sleep. Just because you said that the worse sleep coincided with the solids. Again, unlikely, and there are plenty of more likely explanations at this age, but possible.

Also please don't feel badly about what you tried at 4 months. Some experts advise not to let them cry at that age, as you know (it's repeated all over BnB -- not until 6 months), so of course you did what you had to do. Lots of babies learn to settle without those things on their own. It's not your fault that yours didn't.


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## Matilda85

Thanks for the warm welcome seaweed eater. So his daily routine tends to be a bit varied but generally he wakes up around 7 to 7.30, usually by 9 he is tired so I settle him. Usually he will wake up around 10ish. He then will tend to go back down around 12 and sleep for an hour and then go down for his last nap around 3.though he often fights this one and just falls asleep on the boob around 4. So generally every 2 hours I put him down. We then put him to bed at around 6.30 after his bath and a feed. 
Do you think longer wake times would help
Haven't heard of the no cry technique. I will go Google it. 
I would be happy to wio if I knew it would improve one day. My fear is that I'll go back to work next year and he won't be able to sleep at daycare
What signs would i look for in regards to a food allergy
Thanks for all your help


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## NotNic

Hi everybody. Sorry I haven't been online recently. We had two fantastic weeks in Spain. I'll try to catch up, but its been more than 20 pages since I last checked in!!

Finlay was pretty good sleep wise while we were away. He woke 6.30/7am CET time, had a long 2hr nap from 11ish, then would have another 90mins around 3ish. He would then stay awake for dinner, falling asleep around 10.30/11pm. To begin with he'd wake a few times but this got better and he sttn. Probably because how tired he was from all the playing and the late nights! :) It was a busy hols though as F's molar finally cut through, then his 4th bottom tooth came through and two more molars are also cutting now. He's also taken a few steps but we're not walking yet. His speech has started to pick up too. He's been a busy boy! :)


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## stephie_corin

SE how is Munchkin? Is he better? I'm sorry he is waking every sleep cycle. Nights like that are so rough. How are you helping him between cycles to get back to sleep? I've also read that kids in day care have stronger immune systems. Apparently all kids get approximately the same number of illnesses in the early years but the benefit of them attending day care is that the illnesses don't take them away from school (because they build up their immunity earlier).

I was definitely naive about sleep. Cully slept 12 hours straight at 3 months, not even waking for a feed! The four month regression completely blew me away, but not in a good way!

Polaris, it sounds like Clara's working on so many awesome new skills! How exciting for you! I'm so sorry about your horrible night. Did you ever look into the audio books? That might be less stimulating than TV time. 

Noelle, nap transition!!! Yay! Could you give her a cat nap at ten and her main nap after lunch?

Matilda, welcome! I definitely think you should consider longer awake times and in a few weeks try and drop that third nap. The awake time closer to bed time should lengthen first. If you aren't prepared to CC/CIO there are lots of other options that involve breaking sleep associations gently, or just WIO. I'm WIO because my boy is pretty sensitive and cries a lot if he isn't helped to sleep. I know it's going to take a while for things to get better but I am helping him as best I can by avoiding overtiredness and trying to get a good day routine. What are the sleep associations that bother you the most? (If you want to break them), pick one at a time and and we can help you with some strategies. 

NotNic, so glad you had a great vacation! And congratulations in the STTN! 

And... Still no front teeth!! I'm going to spend this week getting back into our routine and then re-assess things. I'm feeling a bit lost - his sleep is so bad again but I don't know if its teeth/developmental/over stimulation/over tiredness... He had a few good night and now it's all gone bad again. I'm hoping it was just the holiday disruption but we shall see how this week pans out.

I've heard the first nap is really important developmentally. Does anyone know why? Is it bad to try to drop to one nap early? (Under 1 year).

X


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## Noelle610

Ooh Stephie, I hadn't though of that. GREAT idea!


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## seaweed eater

Matilda, how is he at the end of the 2 hours? Fighting his last nap is one sign of being ready to transition. You could try it for a few days and see how it goes. If your LO is having 8 hours WT total, you could try something roughly like 2.25-2.75-3 to start with. Just know that if you do try this, LO will have a hard time with the longer WTs at first, but things can change if you push through it for a few days.

I think other signs of allergy would be stomach upset, mucusy diapers, rash, ...anyone else know?

NotNic, wow, F has been busy indeed! How exciting. I'm glad you guys had a good trip :thumbup: his sleeping schedule sounds perfect for Spain really! Hope he hasn't been suffering too much with the teeth. I remember you said you tend to have one horrible night the week a tooth cuts through. I'm sure the molars are especially tough.

Stephie, I'm so sorry you had such a rough day yesterday :hugs: :hugs: that lost feeling is so difficult. But it will pass!! No matter what, it will pass, and you will feel like things are more predictable again. Please be patient with yourself, remember you've just been traveling. Spending at least a week getting adjusted to being home sounds like a good plan. I don't know the answer to your question about the first nap, but doesn't he take two good naps on normal days? Why do you think that's the solution? To be perfectly honest I think sleep associations are a more likely culprit than some issue with his routine. :( I really hate to say that because I know how much work you've done on that, and that you may have reached your limit. But didn't his good sleep coincide with those few times he self-settled the week before you left? I just wonder whether this may be the best you can do for now while WIO. I would be thrilled to be wrong about that :( I hope other people have suggestions.

Thank you for asking about Munchkin, he seems to be over his illness and his sleep is much better again. When he was waking all the time I was nursing him every time. The worst night (I think it was Saturday?) he often would wake up after 10-20 minutes, not even a full cycle. :sleep: Clearly uncomfortable. Such a relief to see him better now.


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## mellyboo

Sorry for being so slow I've been so busy lately with a crawling baby it makes things THAT much more busier i'm sure some of you no aha!

Her routine is pretty strict and always has been pretty much hence going on vacation a month ago which we are going on another vacation next week.

8am- Wake up ( Grab her out of her crib, go down stairs and change bum and then prepare breakfast *Solids*)
10am- Bottle (formula) and nap.

Her naps range anywhere from 30-1hr30 mins * Literally it's up and down depends on the day*

after her morning nap we have lunch and do things together until 3pm we do daily errands play go visit my dad go for a drive or walk we do something!

3pm Nap and Formula.

This nap here can range in the same time frame before 30mins- 1hr30 mins.

5pm we make supper..

Ususally her dad is awake he works nights so we spend time as a family until she goes to bed around 830-9.

I realise her bed time is late and its only late because she does sleep better at night if she goes to bed at 9pm if we put her to bed any earlier she is literally awake 2 hours on the dot i could set my alarm to her... 

Her nights are just and up and down and thats what i hate.. like last night she woke up 1 time.. yay and only at 6am where i usually just give her a bubba and let her drink it her self in her crib and i go back to bed usually im so tired from waking up to 6 times on a bad night.. i feel like its the easy way out i have a video mointor beside my bed so i can see her/hear her.

I honestly think her waking up its because well its routine at this point and you can literally tell.. Its the same thing 2 sips of milk and then shes out again she doesnt even wake up for a full 2 mins but if i let her she crys and freaks until her "sips" I always offer her the soother first and then if she freaks my last resort is the milk. 

I will be doing sleep training after this vacation ( CC) and hoping it works.


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## Noelle610

Her routine is shifted a bit later than most, but I don't think it's bad. I'd go with the CC for night wakings.


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## mellyboo

Noelle610 said:


> Her routine is shifted a bit later than most, but I don't think it's bad. I'd go with the CC for night wakings.

Me either i feel like we establish generally a good routine.. she is a routine baby she likes her things at different times or you can tell she gets cranky and irritable! I think really i just have ran to her every cry and whine since she's been born and you can kinda tell shes " testing" me some times because for the pass couple of nights she has started doing this screaming thing and i kid you not my friends kids do THE SAME THING.. and it all happen at the mall one day we were there with them her kid started doing it and jordyn was copying now jordyn does it in her crib at night when shes suppose to be " going to bed" and she screams and yells mamamamammaamamam!!! for 10 mins.


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## stephie_corin

Noelle610 said:


> Ooh Stephie, I hadn't though of that. GREAT idea!

Noelle, I can't take credit - I'm pretty sure this was Polaris' advice to someone else! Good luck x


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## polaris

Stephie, :hugs:, sorry you had such a stressful journey back. What a horrible way to end such a relaxing holiday. I agree that you definitely need to give yourself a bit of time to settle back to normal (whatever that is!) before you can really assess where you are at with regard to his sleep. Hopefully it will improve again, at least he did have a few better nights. 

In relation to the morning nap, my understanding (what I can remember) from various sleep books is that it serves a different function to the afternoon nap, it is more of a continuation of night-time sleep (similar brain waves to night time sleep) whereas the afternoon nap is a different sort of sleep. I'm not sure if you will really have much choice about dropping or keeping the nap to be honest. If he's not developmentally ready to drop the nap you would probably find that it impacted negatively on his mood during the day or on his overall sleep over a 24 hour period. This has definitely been my experience with Thomas whenever I have tried to drop a nap that he is not yet ready to drop. I think some babies are more flexible and can more easily reorganize their sleep patterns so nap transitions are easier, but I still don't think it would be easy to encourage him to drop the nap unless he was already very close to being ready.

Notnic - delighted that you had a good holiday. It sounds like F is sleeping really well too, yay! So exciting that he is close to walking!

Matilda - welcome to the thread! I would agree with the advice from seaweed and steph. What age will he be when you have to go back to work? I am currently WIO but have tried other stuff in the past. But I am not back in work now until January when Clara will be nearly 17 months and I am optimistic that there will be at least some improvements by then. From other threads/forums it seems that 14-15 months seems to be when a lot of babies sleep begins to improve naturally although I'm sure Clara is not aware of this timetable but I am hopeful that she might be at least a little bit better by then. For a lot of babies CC works really quickly and effectively so that is a possible option for you or you could try gradual withdrawal where you stay in the room with them while they learn to self-settle. It depends on how you feel about methods involving crying.

Mellyboo, your routine looks good to me. I hope CC works quickly for you if that is the route you decide to take. At least she does sleep well some nights so it won't be such a big leap for her, hopefully she will learn quickly. Enjoy your holiday!

SE - so glad to hear that Munchkin is better and also that his sleep has improved. Is he back doing long stretches again now?


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## seaweed eater

Yeah, we always have the 45-minute waking from overtiredness, but usually he's asleep until around 2 after that, which I'm happy with. Or at least, the past two nights have been like that.


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## NotNic

Thanks everyone. It turns out that Finlay is a bit like that Michael MacIntyre (sp?) sketch, where he hopes the reason his son isn't talking, is because his son is in fact French :D!! 10mths of squiffy sleep and we finally realise Finlay's a Mediterranean baby! :) Not sure how we'd be able to cope with that schedule on a grotty November day though! So far he's doing one long sleep a day, so perhaps we are transitioning now?

Seaweed - the molars have taken forever to cut! They started playing up while he had chicken pox, and then early on in the holiday we had a few dodgy nights (up 4-5 times which probably was teeth) and then we had one day he was really ratty and inconsolable which was probably instead of our regular horrific teething night! The Spanish teething gel worked well for us. So much so the front tooth cut with hardly a whimper and his second molar has just broken the skin and I had to look into his mouth to realise. And his gums have been bleeding. I'm thinking about exporting the stuff in! :D No wonder it cost me 10 euros!!!

Matilda - I'm a WIO person. I'm not opposed to sleep training (done consistently it works wonders for a lot of people), but for us we've tended to swing from periods of good and bad sleeping, so there's never really been a right time to try. I will do CC if I know Finlay is genuinely overtired, but I won't do it other times. From reading other people's stories I think sleep associations and good sleep habits are the remedies to most bad sleepers and probably a much gentler way to coax baby into sleeping properly. I'd work on that if I were you. 

Also a while ago someone suggested I post about 'motion addicts' :). I've now forgotten who was asking AND who recommended that I saw the message, so sorry to both of you. :flower: Much of what I've picked up came from this TV program. Hope it helps you guys too: https://bedtimelive.channel4.com/hints-and-tips/


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## stephie_corin

SE, you're right - his good sleep coincided with the brief period he was self settling for naps. I thought one nap might be the solution because he is fighting both naps now (and has done all week). Maybe it was just holiday excitement? Today he was was up for the day at 645 (which is late for him!) and he took a 30 minute nap around 2.5 hours after waking... 4 hours later he is just going down for his second nap. I've been trying since around the 3 hour mark to wind him down but all he wants to do is play. Even nursing to sleep didn't work - he kept biting me and giggling!

Great news about Munchkin's sleep! You must feel so relieved. Are you still in his room or back in your own bedroom? Did you make a decision about sleep training?

Melly, one thing that stood out to me is that her first nap is only 2 hours after waking but she has around 5 hour awake times after that (depending on nap length). Nothing wrong with it if it is working for you but you could experiment by pushing the first nap a bit later (try 2.5 hours) and bring the second nap a bit earlier. She might be waking from overtiredness.

Noelle, did you try the cat nap? Did it work? 

Polaris, thanks for your perspective on dropping a nap. How did you know when Thomas was ready? Did you try him on one nap and it was a disaster? How has bedtime been for you?

NotNic, I laughed when you described Finlay as a Mediterranean baby! I hope you can find a routine that works for you :)

I ended up giving Culver nurofen last night because he was crying badly every time he woke up. He ended up doing two hour stretches all night! It was pretty amazing. I think 9 months is going to be a really interesting age. He's definitely realised he can cry when he wants something or if he's not allowed to play with something and he seems a lot more cheeky and headstrong than usual. 

I'm really not sure what to do about naps. How do you 'go with the flow' with a baby that has to nurse to sleep and will only sleep in a quiet bedroom? How do you anticipate naps? We sat upstairs for 1.5 hours today because I thought he wanted a nap... I'm rubbish without a formula that tells me when he wants to sleep. Since last week, nap times are all over the place. He's just now falling asleep and yesterday he'd been up for 30 minutes after an hour long nap at this time... ?


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## stephie_corin

And when do I do bedtime?!? I assume he won't wake for at least 45 minutes which will be 3pm. Do I still aim for a 5 hour awake time? How do I know when to do bath?!? Lol.


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## AmyS

Melly - That's kind of cute that she's started imitating the other kids! Have you been trying CC for your night wakings? If so, how's it going?

SE - Nice stretch of sleep until 2am! How's daycare been going? Naps getting any better?

NotNic - What is this Spanish teething gel? Can you get it on Amazon? Molars scare me! The top front teeth scare me!!

Stephie - Two hour stretches are amazing! Hope you were able to get some good sleep in too! I'm not good with advice on "go with the flow", because I'm more of a scheduler too. It drives me crazy if daycare forgets to write down when she woke from her afternoon nap, and hubby didn't ask. Then, I just have to wing it for bedtime, and that makes me nervous!

Matilda - Sounds like you've gotten some good advice! I was on the fence about CC/WIO too about that age. I stalled so much, that I guess I did just WIO for the most part, and my LO's sleep did improve greatly! She is 8 months old now, and has been sleeping great for a few weeks. We also had to transition out of a strong sleep association - she was still sleeping in her rock 'n play at night, which I'm sure extended her sleep regression beyond the normal. 

Noelle - Can't wait to hear how your nap transition is going!

________________

We had a busy day yesterday! Chloe finally started trying to crawl! Yippee!!! She just started getting up on all fours and rocking on Monday, then when I picked her up at daycare yesterday, they said she was slowly army crawling at one point. I caught her on video yesterday, and it's more of a frog leap than army crawling - her belly is in the air. 

She did not nap at all yesterday at daycare!! I take Wednesday afternoons off now, so she ended up taking 2 naps with me - a 45 minute one, and then a 2 hour 15 min one. I thought last night would be horrible - she woke up 3 times, but ended up sleeping in a little later than normal.


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## Noelle610

Yay Chloe! Having a mobile baby is a whole new world!

Charlie has done the "no nap" days... They're awful. You're lucky C was at daycare so that you didn't have to deal with the fussiness :haha:


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## polaris

Stephie, I can so totally relate to your post! I am such a scheduler and I just want to know what time naps etc will be happening and it drives me mad to have to try and wing it! I have lengthened all of Clara's awake times except for before the first nap and it seems to have really helped her to settle more quickly. We are now doing (approximately) 2.5-3/4/4.5-4.75. However I do her first nap by the clock at 9.30 and I also wake her at 10.30 from her first nap and at 4 from her second nap regardless of how long she has slept in order to try to keep the day on schedule. This gives us predictable nap times of 9.30 to 10.30 and 2.30 to 4. This means a late bedtime at 8.30 or even 8.45 but it seems to be working better for her than trying to maintain the earlier bedtime which is what I was trying for ages. Her night time sleep is worse than ever though so maybe don't listen to me!

To answer your question about dropping to one nap - yes, I tried unsuccessfully to move Thomas to one nap when he was 13 months. He was only taking a catnap in the mornings and his afternoon nap was getting quite late and I thought it would be just generally a lot easier if he was just on one nap. It didn't work out at all, he just got really over-tired and cranky and started waking a lot at night whereas he was previously sleeping pretty well at night. I think it was another couple of months before we successfully moved to one nap, I can't remember exactly but I think about 15-16 months.

Amy - yay for crawling!! So exciting!


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## Noelle610

I don't think Charlie will fully transition until 15-16 months. 

So we didn't try the cat nap... My daycare took her to the park in the morning and then she had a 2.5 hour nap after lunch. She was in a great mood at home that evening, but I'm not sure how she was in the morning. They're going to try it today!


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## polaris

Just a quick update - Clara properly self-settled tonight for the first time in ages! She always rolls over and puts herself to sleep after coming off the boob but she's generally half asleep at that stage already and if she can't get to sleep straight away she just gets frustrated and rolls back for more boob. But tonight she rolled away when she was still quite awake - I was sure she would roll back to feed some more but she didn't, she just wriggled around a bit and took herself off to sleep in about five minutes!


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## Noelle610

Yay Clara!


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## seaweed eater

Noelle, how did the catnap end up going?

Polaris, that's wonderful!! :happydance: She's grown up so much recently! I hope it means her sleep is better tonight.

Stephie, truly "going with the flow" has never really worked for us, and it seems like Cully may be similar in that regard. If we don't have a routine in place already, tired cues are not a good guide to when Munchkin should be napping. So for me going with the flow just means having a slightly larger latitude: trying to stick to a routine but not letting myself get too frustrated if he won't nap at the right time, things like that. It helps to have contingency rules like "Try putting down for a nap for no longer than half an hour, then wait for another sleepy cue before trying again." Do you think that would make sense? Maybe you are already doing things like that. I do think it may just take some time for him to get back into his usual habits after your trip. Especially if he's also working on developmental things he's excited about (and aren't they all, really?) :hugs: I don't know when you ended up doing bedtime, but I would probably have tried for something like 7:30 if his usual time is 6:30ish and he woke up at 3. I hope you have another better night tonight. Getting through your own hour and a half sleep cycle is a big deal if you don't have that experience very often!! :hugs:

Amy, congrats on your crawler!! :happydance: That was fast! I believe Munchkin first rocked on hands and knees over two months ago :haha: I'm sorry about the no nap day but I bet it had to do with the excitement of being mobile. Glad it didn't affect the night too much. I hope things calm down soon.

Wondering what you ladies think. Munchkin's NWs have been very regular for about a week now, aside from two weird nights from the illness. He wakes up around 1:30-2, then three hours later, then an hour after that he's up for the day. I'd like to work toward dropping one of those feeds (eep!) but I'm not sure which one. I'd love to be rid of the second one, because I'm always afraid he's going to be up for the day and could do without that suspense at 4:30 AM, but for that exact reason it also seems like a riskier one to mess with. What do you think?

Or should I wait until his napping is sorted out so that he's not as likely to wake early due to being overtired? I just don't know when that will be :/ it's still a disaster. Usually his first "nap" is 10-15 min in arms and his second one is around 20 minutes in his crib. That's it.

One more question. He's also waking at 45 min most evenings (he didn't last night, but basically every other day recently), and he never goes back to sleep within a couple minutes so I nurse him. Is that waking habit-like enough that he could learn to sleep through it (or resettle himself) if I stopped nursing him? My guess is no, because it has more to do with having trouble getting into deeper sleep, not with associations? What do you think?

Stephie, to answer your question about sleep training, I don't really see a need to change things at bedtime at the moment since he's sleeping so much better now (CURSE! stay away!). But I would eventually like to see if he'll drop some night feeds, which certainly isn't WIO, so I guess that makes it sleep training. :)


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## stephie_corin

Amy, congratulations to Chloe on the crawling! It's such an exciting development! Poor baby not managing to nap! It always surprises me how resilient these babies are. Has she managed to nap at daycare since? I'm glad I'm not the only one who gets nervous about winging bedtime!

Polaris, what you describe with Thomas is just what Cully is doing; cat nap in the am and a later and later afternoon snooze. It's a real effort to get him down for his naps too. I'll persevere with the two naps though. It's interesting what you say about Clara's wake times. Are sure she's not sneaking downstairs in the night and telephoning Cully? He seems to follow her pattern of waketimes so closely. He's lengthened his middle awake time to 4 hours too! Maybe check your phone bill for any phonecalls to the UAE... Congrats on the self settling! How did she sleep!?

I like your approach to naps. I think I'm going to have to institute something similar to try and get some kind of predictable pattern to our day. 

Noelle, what a great one nap! Clever girl Charlie! I hope she wasn't too cranky in the am.

SE, I like your ideas of contingency rules! Cully is a funny one and doesn't exhibit tired signs until he is at the point of complete meltdown! I do think I will make a rule of 15 minutes trying for a nap, 15 minutes playing and then repeat it until he falls asleep. He seems to have an incredible ability to just go and go and go unless I rock him to sleep (with much protest from him).

Wow, Munchkin is surviving on such little day sleep. How is his mood on such short naps? I'm surprised he only takes 10 minutes in arms - is this with you or daycare? Although you said he now self settles to sleep so maybe he doesn't like being held any more. Is the wake up from that nap happening when he is being transferred? Or is he just waking up?

I don't think there is any harm slowly working towards dropping the feeds, even if naps are bad. Do you have any other way of getting him to sleep at 430am other than nursing? Will he rock to sleep or could you bring him into bed with you for snuggles? When C was waking really early I kept rocking him (sometimes for an hour or more) and wouldn't let him start the day until at least 6am. He now sleeps until 6am but does wake at 430am and 5.15am for a quick nurse to settle back to sleep, so I'm probably not the best person to offer advice!

With the 45 minute waking after bed time, I agree that this is trouble falling into deeper sleep. Cully does this too and I have to help him back to sleep - although I'm sure the sleep associations are what is stopping them from falling into deeper sleep? Sorry, I am being so unhelpful! When you did sleep train was he waking at 45 minutes?

We ended up aiming for a 730 bedtime and he finally fell asleep just after 8. We had hourly wakings until 1am and then a 2 hour stretch and a 1.5 hour stretch. I realised on nights he does the 2 hour stretches (and I get through my own sleep cycle) I actually have dreams! I used to have really vivid dreams pre baby and I haven't had a dream in what feels like months. If anyone is curious, I dreamt that I was gifted a large silver fish in a half filled plastic bag and I was on the hunt for an aquarium because I was worried he was going to die. I wish my one dream had been more interesting!

I hope everyone has great nights xxx


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## NotNic

Tired today. Finlay was sick, very sick in the night. Between 9.30 and 11.30 we were up mopping up and comforting him. He then woke at 1am retching, bit he was comforted quite easily. 5hrs sleep is not enough for this mummy! Someone pass me the coffee - stat!!

Congrats Clara on self-soothing, Chloe for crawling and Charlotte for coping with one nap. Clever girls!

Hope everyone else had peaceful nights.


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## polaris

Well, unfortunately the self-settling at bedtime didn't make any noticeable difference to her night time sleep! Oh well, at least it's a step in the right direction.

SE - I don't think there's any right or wrong answer but personally I would try to drop the 1.30/2 a.m. feed. I would be too scared that he wouldn't go back to sleep at 4.30/5 without the other one. With Thomas I kept the 5 a.m. feed for ages because I was afraid to mess with it, I was too worried that he would end up being up for the day at 4.30/5 a.m. if I didn't feed him at that time, he did eventually drop the feed on his own. ETA actually now that I think of it, once he dropped that 4.30/5 a.m. feed he did start waking for the day at 5.30! :dohh:

Clara always used to do the 45 minute wake-up after bedtime but she amazingly seems to have stopped that for the moment and now tends to do 1.5-2 hours after bedtime which is great! I'm sure she'll wake after 45 minutes this evening though just to prove me wrong! I didn't do anything to encourage her to sleep through this waking but I do think Munchkin would be able to learn to resettle himself without nursing if you stopped nursing him at that time. I am thinking about doing this with Clara for early evening wakings once she is over a year.

Stephie - I think Clara must actually be doing longer stretches now because I do actually have dreams again. I remember that phase of never getting far enough into your own sleep cycle to dream. I was actually a little bit crazy at that stage I think! I think Clara usually goes into a deeper sleep and does a long stretch from about 3 or 4 a.m. through till 6.30/7 when we get up and that's when I have dreams now! As ever, Clara is the opposite of most babies who go into a lighter sleep at around 4 or 5 a.m. LOL.

Notnic, what a horrible night, I hate when they are sick like that. Even on a practical level I always run out of towels and bedding! Hope he's feeling better this morning.


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## stephie_corin

NotNic, I'm so sorry! What a horrible night! I hope F feels better soon. 

Polaris, sorry to hear sleep was still bad! But you're right, the self settling is definitely a step in the right direction! 

Did I say C was stretching out his middle awake time?! Silly me... I should have known he'd want his second nap only 2.5 hours after the first... Lol. I want my predictable napper back - it was the only part of sleep that was easy for us!


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## Noelle610

Just one nap yesterday and no catnap (daycare took them to the park again - beautiful weather). It was 3 hours and bedtime was uneventful :) I may try the cat nap tomorrow when she's home if she seems tired before noon.

SE, I think I'd drop the midnight feed and stick with the 4am one for now. Most moms I speak with say that's the hardest one to drop. That's just one opinion though! You could nurse him for less and less time gradually. That 45 minute thing? Charlie did it for months around Munchkin's age. No idea why. She wasn't overtired, she was going to bed awake and putting herself to sleep. It drove me bonkers. She just grew out of it. I know that's not helpful, but time was the solution for us!


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## AmyS

polaris - Yay for Clara!! That's amazing! 

SE - I hate any wake ups after 4am!! That's such a tough time for getting and staying back to sleep. I like the other ladies' ideas of dropping the first feed. 

Stephie - Chloe had one good nap at daycare yesterday, and that's because they held her! I think I'm going to have to stop holding her for naps at home, so our sleep will probably get really bad again before it gets better. I'm dream analyzing you! You must be a nurturer by nature, because even in your dreams, you find something to take care of! I like your 15 intervals for sleep - I think that will be less stressful than trying to fight a baby who isn't quite ready yet! 

NotNic - Hope Finlay feels better soon! Poor baby!

Noelle - That's quite a nap! I think I would like a 3 hour nap myself. Hope your cat nap goes well tomorrow if she needs it. I always hate waking a sleeping baby!

Does anyone get the feeling that our babies are super smart, and read this thread daily just to mess with us?? As soon as something is going well, they change it up! haha 

Chloe must have been practicing her army crawling all day yesterday at daycare, because she was a pro by the time she got home! I'm shocked!! Ok, maybe not a pro, but she definitely has no hesitation when she sees something she wants. 

Sleep last night was good, she sttn from 7:15pm until 5am, but then we were up for the day. I thought I could try feeding her back to sleep until 6, but she decided to start giggling and playing - and I can't resist a giggling baby!


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## Noelle610

Ah, to be a baby and take three hour naps. Sounds like a good life to me! :rofl:


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## polaris

Noelle, Thomas went through a phase of 3 hour naps when he first dropped to one nap, it was lovely! Sounds like maybe she might be close to transitioning if you can just get her through the tired/fussy time in the morning.

Well, the self-settling wasn't just a once off, she did the same thing for her second nap today. She was quite wide awake when she finished her feed and actually crawled around the bed for a bit before lying down and going to sleep herself!!! I guess it's not totally self-settling because she still needs me lying right beside her on the bed but things are definitely moving in the right direction.


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## stephie_corin

Noelle610 said:


> Ah, to be a baby and take three hour naps. Sounds like a good life to me! :rofl:

Lol!! I can't remember the last time I slept for three hours uninterrupted... Sounds like a fantastic life! DH said the same thing tonight when I was talking to Cully over dinner: 'we'll finish up and then I'll cut up some fruit for you and after that a nice walk before bath time. Mummy will give you a massage and then bookies and milk and then it's bed time.' He was like, yes, sign me up for that treatment!


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## seaweed eater

Thanks ladies, I'll try the earlier feed then. Ugh...I just hate that 4:30 feed so much. :dohh: I don't think it would be so bad if he hadn't had a few days where he did actually start his day at 4:30. Now I'm always afraid it will happen again. It's also horrible for me because I don't turn the lights on or let him out of his room until 6, and I try not to smile or be very engaging...ugh, it is so boring and horrible, and of course he gets frustrated too, which I allow to happen because I don't want it to be fun for him to be up at that time. We've been doing this for months and he still doesn't consistently sleep until 6, so I've thought of stopping it and just starting the day when he's up, but I just can't feel good about letting him have too much fun at that hour.

Today he actually woke up but SS at 4:30, so I thought YESSSS!! -- but he was up at 5:15 and wouldn't go back to sleep, of course.

I think I may just wait out the 45 min waking. I don't really mind it, since I'm not in bed yet myself, and it's probably developmental/overtiredness. Might as well avoid the crying. The only problem is that it makes it impossible to go out in the evenings but I don't do much of that anyway. He wasn't waking at 45 min when we were sleep training, no. He's done it on and off at various times in his life...mostly off. I've never done anything in particular to get rid of it so I think WIO is probably going to be fine this time too.

Stephie, I'm sure that rocking him would really stimulate him...I haven't tried bringing him to bed but I don't really want to introduce that and later have to get him out of the habit...would rather just keep feeding him. :sleep:

The 10 min in arms is at daycare. I think he wakes in transfer. It seems they won't let him sleep much longer than about 15 min in arms, which I'm ok with because I too feel he needs to adjust to napping in his bed. His mood has been all right despite the awful napping. It's just that, when he gets frustrated, he gets REALLY frustrated. Every little issue is a potential meltdown. You know what I mean? But generally he's happy as usual. I think it's also partly that he'd really like to be more mobile, in addition to the tiredness.

I used to try to put a time limit on how long I'd let Munchkin play after he'd refused to nap before trying again, but I usually found that the same thing would happen again and in the end he'd nap later than if I just waited. But he does have some tired cues, so if Cully doesn't I can see why you'd need a time limit!

Glad you had some dreams! :thumbup: I can't imagine how you've been functioning without any REM sleep, honestly! :hugs:

NotNic, I hope you're getting through the day all right! Poor you and poor Finlay. Hope he's better soon!! :hugs:

Polaris, this self-settling sounds really promising. I hope it continues and you do start to see a difference in her NWs. I do think it's possible for her to learn to resettle herself with slightly different conditions (like not having you in the room). Of course, if she doesn't, then you could see if she'll adjust to settling without you there, but hopefully that won't be necessary!
When was Thomas waking up before he dropped that 4:30 feed and started waking earlier? :dohh: I'm so glad to have you here to share your experiences with him. Our sons really do seem so similar!

Noelle, sounds like one nap is going well at daycare :thumbup: really glad to hear it! IMO it seems fine to give her a catnap at home even if she's not having one at daycare, but I'm sure you know more about it than I do anyway. My experience, though, is that Munchkin is currently sleeping approximately 5x as much at home as at daycare. :p

Amy, congrats on the STTN and the proficient crawling!! :happydance: That's a great combination! Sorry about the early waking, but glad she was in a good mood at least. I hope she takes a good nap today!


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## seaweed eater

AmyS said:


> Does anyone get the feeling that our babies are super smart, and read this thread daily just to mess with us?? As soon as something is going well, they change it up!

^^^ You may have discovered the true nature of the so-called BnB curse!!!


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## polaris

SE - as far as I can remember Thomas only went back to sleep for another hour or maybe 1.5 hours after the early a.m. feed, so he was feeding at 5 and then back to sleep until 6 or 6.30. 6 a.m. is so much easier than 5.30 to start the day though! With Thomas, bringing him into the bed in the early mornings never worked, I did try it a few times but he never even once went to sleep, he just crawled around the bed poking me in the eye and pulling my hair and trying to pull my ears off etc. Not very restful. It's so funny how different he is to Clara in that respect, she definitely falls asleep best when you are right beside her whereas for Thomas that was always too distracting/stimulating.

For anyone who is interested in my progress on the final nap transition with Thomas - he has been back napping every day for about a month now and I just accepted that he still needs the nap at the moment even if it means he is in bed late. However this week he has had two days without a nap - Wednesday we were out for the whole day and I thought he would fall asleep in the car on the way home but he didn't and by the time we got home it was just too late for him to nap, and then today I put him to bed for a nap as usual but he didn't fall asleep (very unusual for him!) and got up after about half an hour. Both days he has been fast asleep by 7.15 p.m. which I have to say is very nice! I still don't think he's ready to totally drop the nap but maybe we will start again gradually doing a couple of days without napping each week.


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## stephie_corin

Amy, I'm sorry you have to stop holding Chloe for naps, I know how much you enjoy it! Maybe you could try and not hold her for morning weekend naps and still keep the afternoon nap as snuggle time? I'm not sure if that would be confusing though?! I laughed at loud at your giggling baby at 5am. I'm the same. Yesterday Cully wasn't ready to nap or nurse to sleep and he kept biting me. It was so painful but then he would look up and giggle and I couldn't help but laugh, which of course just perpetuated the biting.:dohh:

SE, those early morning wake ups sound so tough! If you're determined to 'wait him out' and not let him play before 6 (and you can't help him back to sleep), maybe you should take a book and night light in and read quietly in the corner until you are ready to get him up. Have you got a sleepy phrase you use like she suggests in the NCSS? Maybe building some sleep associations (lovey, sleepy phrase, sleepy music or something) might help when nursing fails to get him back down. 

Regarding the meltdowns. If its any consolation, Cully has been in meltdown city for a few weeks now. He throws a proper tantrum if I try and stop him doing something he is enjoying. Even if he is relatively well rested, the potential for meltdowns is always there! I suspect it's partially the age (but overtiredness won't help of course!)

Polaris, I've been wondering about Thomas' nap! I hope the early bedtime continues for you! I'm sure it's mostly out of your control, but perhaps you could encourage the no nap days on the days you are doing bedtime by yourself - it might make things easier for you.

Gaia, how are you? Newbies? Any updates?

We had a really rough night last night. I wish his little teeth would come through. He was eating shredded cheese today (thanks SE!) and DH said 'oh wow his teeth are through!' I was so excited but it turned out to be ... Cheese. 

I hope you all had great nights! X


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## stephie_corin

Our sleep was so bad again last night. He was awake crying every 10-15 minutes. I gave him nurofen at 130am and he slept for 1.5 hours and then was up again unable to sleep.

It feels like teething but still no teeth in sight. I'm really doubting myself now. Is he under tired/over tired? Yesterday we did 2.5 (30 minute nap) 3.5 (1.5 hour nap) 4.75 (bed) and he seemed cranky for most of the day. Is the iboprufen dose high enough? He is above 100th percentile for height and weight and the meds dosage is based on age rather than weight - I don't know if this is because under 1 year their organs aren't developed enough to handle a bigger dose?

I'm going crazy trying to figure out if there is another factor... We drink only bottled water - has he got endocrine disruption from plastics leaching into the water? Lead poisoning? Too much water/not enough water...

It really does seem like one step forward and then 50 steps backwards. 

Sorry for the rant. I just wish there was something I could do.


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## seaweed eater

Hugs Stephie. Of course you wish there were something you could do!!! 10-15 min is just awful. :hugs: :hugs: :hugs:

Munchkin only did that when he was sick. Even every 45 is very different from every 10-15. I wonder whether he might have food allergies or something like that. Seems more plausible than endocrine disruption...

I really don't think it's anything you're doing, or not doing. You're doing everything right.


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## stephie_corin

Thanks SE. He does have some wheat and dairy products. I might try and cut them both out and see if it helps. He is very 'windy' at the moment so maybe it's an upset tummy xxx


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## polaris

Stephie, I am always wondering if there is something wrong with Clara that she can't sleep properly. I do wonder about a dairy intolerance as she seems to get very gassy especially after eating yoghurt (which she loves) and that definitely disturbs her sleep sometimes as she wakes up and cries for a moment and then passes wind and can sometimes do this several times an hour (but not for the whole night). Maybe I should try cutting out dairy from her diet and see if it makes a difference. The only thing with Clara is that she is soooo happy during the day that I find it hard to believe that there is really anything at all the matter with her. However if Cully is also cranky during the day then I would definitely be thinking along the lines of possible allergies/intolerances for 15 minute wakings. :hugs: That is hard to deal with. Does he settle easily at least or does it take a while to settle him? I don't know how you are still functioning, no wonder you are feeling a bit lost, it's impossible to even think straight on that type of broken sleep.


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## stephie_corin

Thanks Polaris, he's normally very happy during the day and has been eating dairy for a few months now. I can't think of anything new he's started eating recently. I think his crankiness in the day yesterday and today is mainly due to sleep deprivation. He's still pretty cheerful but definitely more fussy than usual. I can't understand either how he can be (normally) so happy and full of energy in the day and then sleep so badly at night.

He takes a while to settle and when I finally put him down he sleeps for ten minutes and then wakes crying again. He's so tired today he is taking his second nap now (started at 1130am). Would it be a backwards step to give him three naps today? I'm thinking of going back to three naps as our standard nap pattern but it feels like I'm doing him a disservice (9 months is too old for 3 naps right??) 

I know I sound crazy - two days ago I was talking about 1 nap. I just have no idea what to do.


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## stephie_corin

I meant to say I am still going to try and cut out dairy for a while and see if it helps (Cully also loves yogurt!). I think it's worth a shot with Clara too - you never know, it might be the miracle solution we've been looking for!


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## polaris

Yeah, I totally can never understand how Clara is so cheerful and full of beans when I am barely functioning in a sleep deprived haze! 

I totally know that feeling of just not having a clue what is the best thing to do, it's a horrible head space to be in. I don't think there's any harm in giving him three naps today or even going back to three naps temporarily if it seems to work for him. If it doesn't work you haven't lost anything. I don't think sleep schedules are set in stone anyway. Like if you have the wrong number of naps at the wrong age it's not a disaster. This is a bit of a change in my thinking because I used to think that standard nap schedules were almost magical and I definitely deferred to them as a greater authority than me! But that was because they just worked so well for Thomas. Clara definitely needs a more flexible approach. Anyway if something really isn't working there's no harm doing something different. I know that I am guilty of persisting for too long with schedules that clearly aren't working for Clara just because the research literature says that is the optimum schedule for her.


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## stephie_corin

He's just woken after 45 minutes and won't go back to sleep - will write more later! Thanks for your help Polaris, as always!! X


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## stephie_corin

Ok we are now just about on nap 3... He hasn't had a routine like this in months. But it's something I should have done yesterday in hindsight. I'm going to just roll with three naps for now, at least until his sleep improves at night. He's just too tired to stay awake long enough. Polaris, I definitely try to follow the guidelines too much. It's hard when things go bad not to trust the experts. Thank you again, I always appreciate your perspective.


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## Boo44

Hi everyone sorry to see the same names here and hope you're doing better with sleep!

Hope you don't mind me popping in now and again for advice?

Jack is 13 months and still on a 2 nap schedule. I'm wondering if I need to shift his naps around a bit, mainly as we have entered another prolonged early waking episode! Don't get me wrong, he sttn 11 hours, but magically wakes every day without fail at 6.30 when I know he can sleep until 7.30 (he often teases us by doing this for a few days in a row with no change to his schedule)

I'm like a broken record and I know that 11 hours sttn is amazing (please believe me i do know to appreciate this!) and typical for a baby and I should count my lucky stars. But just to humour me for a second - would pushing his first nap later be likely to make his first morning waking time later? He still goes down at 10ish every morning, but for instance today it was 9am! Which seems very early for a 13 month old, and I wonder if it is almost like he is using it as an extension of his night sleep. He then has another hour around 3. I'm looking to get a long nap after lunch one day, but he's tired in the morning (due to his early start!) so it seems a long way away. Most of my mummy friends are down to 1 nap now. 

Would love any advice


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## polaris

Hi Boo, sorry I don't have any advice really, I think 6.30 a.m. is very normal for babies especially after sleeping through the night for 11 hours. I would imagine that he has simply got as much sleep as he needs at that stage. He might well start sleeping later when he drops to one nap but 13 months is still quite young to transition, despite your friends' babies. Maybe you could try moving his bedtime a bit later if you are really keen for him to sleep longer in the mornings? 

Having said that I have read that the morning nap is physiologically a continuation of night sleep so maybe your idea might work. I did try pushing the morning nap later when DS was waking at 5.30 but it didn't really have much impact so far as I can remember.


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## polaris

Clara is not well (high temperature and generally off form) and she was impossible to get to sleep this evening. This ALWAYS happens to us just as things start to improve a little bit. She gets ill and we are back to square one again. She really doesn't tolerate illness very well and she screamed inconsolably for an hour at bedtime tonight and refused all my efforts to comfort her or help her to get to sleep. :cry:


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## Boo44

Thanks Polaris :) I do feel that reducing his naps is more my 'issue' than his early waking. I just wonder if altering the naps would result in a 'lie in' (who thought anything post 6.30 would ever be a lie in!!). I may just be unlucky to be friends with mums of similar age babies who sleep until 8am - damn them :)


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## polaris

Boo44 said:


> Thanks Polaris :) I do feel that reducing his naps is more my 'issue' than his early waking. I just wonder if altering the naps would result in a 'lie in' (who thought anything post 6.30 would ever be a lie in!!). I may just be unlucky to be friends with mums of similar age babies who sleep until 8am - damn them :)

You need to find a few friends with babies who wake at 5.30! I remember when Thomas was waking at that time I would have killed for a "lie-in" until 6.30 a.m.!! Amazing how your perspective changes!


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## Boo44

polaris said:


> Boo44 said:
> 
> 
> Thanks Polaris :) I do feel that reducing his naps is more my 'issue' than his early waking. I just wonder if altering the naps would result in a 'lie in' (who thought anything post 6.30 would ever be a lie in!!). I may just be unlucky to be friends with mums of similar age babies who sleep until 8am - damn them :)
> 
> You need to find a few friends with babies who wake at 5.30! I remember when Thomas was waking at that time I would have killed for a "lie-in" until 6.30 a.m.!! Amazing how your perspective changes!Click to expand...

Absolutely! :haha:


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## polaris

Boo44 said:


> polaris said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Boo44 said:
> 
> 
> Thanks Polaris :) I do feel that reducing his naps is more my 'issue' than his early waking. I just wonder if altering the naps would result in a 'lie in' (who thought anything post 6.30 would ever be a lie in!!). I may just be unlucky to be friends with mums of similar age babies who sleep until 8am - damn them :)
> 
> You need to find a few friends with babies who wake at 5.30! I remember when Thomas was waking at that time I would have killed for a "lie-in" until 6.30 a.m.!! Amazing how your perspective changes!Click to expand...
> 
> Absolutely! :haha:Click to expand...

Congratulations on your pregnancy by the way!


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## Boo44

Thank you!! Am feeling ok about the sleepless nights again as I think my perspective has changed... Our family is very baby-heavy at the moment, my sister-in-law has just had her third baby last wk (older ones are only 3 and 22 months!!) and she was saying he'd fed at 11pm then slept til 2.30am fed and slept til 6ish. I was like wow that's amazing for a newborn!! And I remember when I was pregnant with Jack if someone had said that I may have died of the horror :haha:

So anyway maybe I'll be more accepting this time...? Or come back to me in a few months and I'll probably be on this thread lamenting the days when I had one baby that slept until 6.30 lol!


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## bananaz

Boo44 said:


> Thanks Polaris :) I do feel that reducing his naps is more my 'issue' than his early waking. I just wonder if altering the naps would result in a 'lie in' (who thought anything post 6.30 would ever be a lie in!!). I may just be unlucky to be friends with mums of similar age babies who sleep until 8am - damn them :)

The 8am sleepers are the atypical ones, not Jack! Most babies this age wake around 6-7am, and then of course there are the odd ones like mine that are up between 5-5:30 every morning :wacko: I would kill to sleep until 6:30!


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## bananaz

polaris said:


> Just a quick update - Clara properly self-settled tonight for the first time in ages! She always rolls over and puts herself to sleep after coming off the boob but she's generally half asleep at that stage already and if she can't get to sleep straight away she just gets frustrated and rolls back for more boob. But tonight she rolled away when she was still quite awake - I was sure she would roll back to feed some more but she didn't, she just wriggled around a bit and took herself off to sleep in about five minutes!

That's amazing! Go Clara :thumbup:


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## seaweed eater

Stephie :hugs: I mentioned allergies mostly because another BnB friend has mentioned that her daughter had trouble sleeping for a long time because of food sensitivities. It sounds like it went on for a long time before they figured it out, so I don't think it was obvious that that's what it was. Anyway, no real evidence for that in Cully's case, of course, just something I thought of. I'm no doctor, of course, but it does seem to me that 10-15 is indicative of discomfort of some sort, not just a pure sleep thing. Maybe it really is just teething. Oh and to answer your question about dosages, the ibuprofen here, at least Advil brand, has guidelines for both weight and age -- sounds like yours does not? I think ours says to go by weight if it's known (and for 6 months+) or otherwise by age. But I could be wrong. Anyway given that C is probably about 2 age levels up based on his weight, it's possible that he's not getting enough medication. Is there a doctor you trust in your area that you could ask about that?

Polaris, I'm so so sorry to hear Clara is unwell again. :hugs: You really have had to deal with a lot of illness. It's so hard to see them struggle like that. I hope she is better very soon. Hang in there and try to get some rest :hugs:

Boo, sorry to say I agree with the others about Jack's mornings. Also, I'm not sure that moving the first nap later is a step on the way toward dropping a nap? Someone who has gone through the 2-1 transition should correct me if I'm wrong. But my sense is that usually they just drop the first one, and maybe the second one gets a little earlier if they can't stay awake for long enough, but not by too much. But it's not as though the second one moves later. If he's still on 2 naps and waking at 6:30, 9 seems like a fine time for his first nap.

Bananaz :wave: I hope your silence means that things are going well!! I've been wondering how you and E are doing.

AFM... we decided to start sleep training again. This was night 1. It did not go well. :( I'm trying to avoid the usual self-flagellation...I just want him to know that he is capable of falling asleep on his own and doesn't need to nurse immediately prior. Because I really believe he can do it! Going to stay hopeful despite how tonight went.

The plan is to nurse exactly once every time he wakes up during the night, then put down awake and no more nursing. Then start dropping feeds once that goes better. That's how we started last time, too.


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## stephie_corin

SE, thank you. Our iboprufen has one dose for 6-12 months and double that for 12 months +. It doesn't make sense to me unless babies younger than 12 months are particularly sensitive to the meds. DH's best friend in the UK is a paediatrician so I might ask him. I actually do think Cully has a mild dairy intolerance (although I'm not sure if its having an effect on his sleep) because when we first gave it to him he had mild eczema on his legs. But being a veggie baby already I didn't want to restrict his diet even further. 

Three naps worked really well yesterday. He fell asleep at 745pm and I transferred him at 8pm ... Which is unheard of in this house. He then slept solidly until 945, fed and slept until 11ish. We then had an hour or so of the ten minute wakings but after 1245am he only woke hourly until 630am. So a BIG improvement on last night.

I think three naps lets him have a total awake time of 11.5 hours, which he can't do on 2 naps without getting really over tired. I'm not going to celebrate yet because who knows when he is going to nap today... But if he goes down for an early second nap I'll definitely stick with three naps. 

Polaris, I'm so so so sorry about Clara! Do you guys go to lots of play groups? Or do you think it's just the odd weather? Thinking of you both. I hope she feels better quickly and you both get some sleep.

SE, good luck with the sleep training my friend. I'm sure Munchkin will get there. What made you decide to start again? I hope you get the same fantastic results you did last time. And I agree... There is nothing to feel bad about. You are acting out of love and concern for Munchkin. You are a wonderful mother.

Bananaz! Nice to see your name :) I hope sleep is going well for you guys.

Boo, you guys might find it easier to shift your own schedules earlier than to try and fight the 630am wakings. I know my boy doesn't sleep beyond 6 (630 is a huge lie in!) so we make an effort to go to bed at 10/1030pm. I actually like getting up early now. You guys could go for a family walk or some other activity in the early morning.


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## Boo44

SE - thanks yes I meant to push his first nap back until it becomes more like lunch time and then drop the second one completely. Am still determined to do this and see if it helps any

Stephie - since this pregnancy I've been going to bed at 10pm at the latest and still managing to be exhausted lol! But am getting plenty of sleep :) Me and OH just take it in turns to get up with him each day

Thanks for the tips everyone looks like the general consensus is ..... suck it up


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## polaris

Thanks everyone. Yes, it seems like she is always ill. She just catches absolutely everything that is going. She is ill so much more often than Thomas ever was. I think it is probably a lot to do with having an older sibling and generally having a lot more exposure to other children through that. But also she seems to get things a lot worse than Thomas does so I don't know if she just doesn't have as strong of an immune system. Like this bug, Thomas had it earlier in the week but he wasn't really very ill with it whereas she is so unwell. She also cut her 6th tooth through the gum this morning so teething is definitely making things worse. We had a truly awful night last night, she just cried on and off all night long. Sometimes crying in her sleep and sometimes properly waking and just screaming with pain and very hard to settle. She finally went to sleep properly at about 6 a.m. and slept for a solid hour and fifteen minutes before waking for the day which was the only decent stretch of sleep she had all night. :sleep: 

Stephie - I'm so glad you had a better night last night!

SE - :hugs: So sorry you had a tough night with sleep training. I hope today will be easier and that Munchkin's sleep improves quickly.


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## stephie_corin

Polaris, of course! The older sibling factor. I didn't think of that. It makes sense that she would get it worse than Thomas seeing as she is younger. I'm sorry that your night was so rough. Hang in there. Sleep deprivation that bad is really tough. Thinking of you guys xxx


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## AmyS

Stephie - Glad you had some improvement after trying 3 naps! Waking every 10-15 minutes is brutal! 

polaris - Poor Clara! Is she feeling better yet? Of course she would be teething on top of being sick too! 

SE - How did the rest of your night go? I like your plan. I hope he catches on quickly for you!
____________

Well, we had a really crappy couple of nights, followed by an awesome night last night! DH asks me what I think her problem is, and I tell him to take his pick of reasons: teething, learning new skills, overtired, sleep regression, etc. I'm just going with the flow for now. If she wakes up, I give her about 15 minutes to resettle before I go in. Sometimes she will, and sometimes she won't!

She is also getting to the very clingy stage - only wants me! I do feel important, yes. She must really enjoy my loud, off-key singing. 

And she is really into her crawling now! She army crawls most of the time, but she also practices the "real" crawl, but one foot drags behind right now! Very cute! I'm calling it the zombie crawl.


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## stephie_corin

Amy! I'm sorry you had a few crappy nights. I agree with you though... She has so much going on right now - it's no surprise that her sleep is disrupted! Cully is also going through a clingy phase and also has a bit of stranger shyness, which he's never had before. That's great she's resettling by herself some of the time! 

I hope you guys don't mind a bit of a self indulgent post. We did three naps again today and its worked so well. The two main benefits are no over-tiredness (he's actually smiled at me right before falling asleep) and an additional day feed. Tonight could be rubbish of course but I'm quietly optimistic. 

It's made me feel really emotional and like I failed him. I've already spoken to DH about this and he said not to worry because it's all a learning experience. I also know there is no point rehashing or stressing over past mistakes. But I just wanted to share my thoughts with you all.

I wish so badly I hadn't pushed him to 2 naps when he wasn't ready. I wanted to help his night sleep and make our schedule easier and ended up forcing him to prematurely drop to 3 day feeds and be overtired every day! It breaks my heart to think of how hungry he must have been (I always offered but he 99.9% of the time only fed when about to sleep). In hindsight, I can see how tired he was by bed time too. 

If I could go back in time I would have respected his cat napping pattern and his desire to only feed when about to sleep; I wouldn't have tried to extend his naps beyond 45 minutes. I had too much power over when he slept because I could easily nurse or rock him to sleep, and I feel like I abused that power.

Where to from here? I have no idea. My confidence has taken a real blow. I've been shouting all over the forum about awake times and advising people based on our experience and I feel embarrassed now! How am I meant to know when he is ACTUALLY ready to drop a nap?! When do I increase his awake times?? I just have no clue where we are heading now.

I'm actually very happy we went back to 3 naps (in spite of the melodramatic tone of my post), I just wish I had tried this sooner! xxx


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## Noelle610

Stephie, big :hugs: Don't be too hard on yourself. Simply put, some babies are harder to read than others - including my own. My daughter is in a never-ending transition from 2-1 naps. I logically know a lot about the science of baby sleep, but put into practice it throws the most knowledgeable person for a loop. I would say your concern over your LO's sleep actually proves what a wonderful mother you actually are. You want him to be at his best, get the optimal amount of rest and ultimately to be happy.


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## AmyS

Stephie - I understand feeling guilty, but don't let it get you down for too long! You are so amazing, Cully is so lucky to have you! I don't know anyone as patient as you are!

Another reason not to feel bad: babies sleep needs change so much, that it's possible to go from needing 2 naps per day to needing 3. I pm'd you our nap schedule, which is really nonexistent: 1, 2, or 3 naps a day, depending on the day and what she is getting at daycare. The only wake time I really keep track of is the time between her last nap and bedtime. I know it's hard not to have a set routine, but his nap needs might change daily. 

So sweet that he was smiling at you before falling asleep! That is so much better than fighting sleep, isn't it! 

I think I would stick with a flexible nap schedule through the 9 month regression, just in case that's what is causing his need for extra sleep. I think you'll be able to tell when he's ready for fewer naps - especially when he's in daycare, there will be so much stimulation, and he might drop back down to 2 on his own.

I am very optimistic for your night too! Hope it goes well!


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## stephie_corin

Thanks Amy and thanks Noelle :hugs:

The positivity and support on this thread never ceases to amaze me.


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## seaweed eater

Hugs Stephie!! :hugs: :hugs: Please don't be hard on yourself. I will echo what Noelle and Amy said. You are trying so hard to do what's best for Cully and you've shown sooo much patience. He's really lucky to have you! You've been following scientifically validated advice this whole time. Everyone says you should try to extend catnaps if you can. Most babies do drop to 2 naps by 9 months. It's not your fault that what works for most babies hasn't worked well for yours. And on top of that, he happens to have that alertness and ability to stay awake for hours and hours. He's been happy, getting a very reasonable amount of both sleep and milk. Even if it hasn't been perfectly optimal for him, you haven't done anything so wrong. <3


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## seaweed eater

Thanks Amy, our night was pretty good -- up twice and no crying. I didn't get very much sleep though. My stomach is still in knots.

To be honest, I'm having a hard time acknowledging my stress about this because I feel like it's "fodder" (that word is more hostile than I mean) for people who are against sleep training to tell me that I'm doing something wrong. As hard as it is, I still think it's the right thing.


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## AmyS

seaweed eater said:


> Thanks Amy, our night was pretty good -- up twice and no crying. I didn't get very much sleep though. My stomach is still in knots.
> 
> To be honest, I'm having a hard time acknowledging my stress about this because I feel like it's "fodder" (that word is more hostile than I mean) for people who are against sleep training to tell me that I'm doing something wrong. As hard as it is, I still think it's the right thing.

I understand what you're saying - but you aren't going to get any judgment here! :hugs:

I'm so glad your night went so well! Yay Munchkin! I hope this helps with daycare naps also - you'll have to let us know!


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## stephie_corin

Thank you for your kind words SE. 

I'm sorry you feel like anyone would judge you for sleep training. Parenting is such an emotional journey and all we can hope is that we do our best. You had such great results before - and you are having great results already this time around - be proud in your decision; it's clearly in Munchkin's best interests. Huge hugs. I hope you get some more sleep my dear friend xxx


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## Boo44

Stephie I just read your post and want to say how you're feeling proves what a fantastic mother you must be. Naps and timings and awake times are so complicated and the others are right - their needs change all of the time it's impossible to keep up! Given that info it's not surprising that we all try to follow these plans in the hope of getting the best sleep for our babies. But the fact that you've taken a step back makes you a fabulous mum and much better than me! My husband says I am far too driven by the book and I think I agree! So hats off to you and I'm so pleased your baby is happy :) xx


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## polaris

Poor Clara is quite unwell, she has developed a rash to go along with the fever, the GP says probably just a viral rash but she has sent off swabs for possible measles. :cry: Feeling a bit miserable and exhausted today. It just feels like she's been sick so much and she's only 11 months old. Going to go to bed now even though it's only 8.50 p.m. Will reply to posts tomorrow.


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## seaweed eater

So sorry Polaris. I've heard of this happening to a few friends' babies recently and it was just a virus. I hope she's on the mend soon. Get some rest both of you :hugs:


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## bananaz

seaweed eater said:


> Bananaz :wave: I hope your silence means that things are going well!! I've been wondering how you and E are doing.

Yes, her naps are all over the place and she's up at the crack of dawn every morning but she's still sleeping through consistently so I can't complain! 

I'm sorry to see so many familiar faces in here LOL I was on this thread for several months though and my LO was a crappy sleeper before then too, so if we can get there I'm sure all of you will too! :hugs:


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## seaweed eater

No crying at bedtime tonight. Such a relief!!
Not getting my hopes up too high, but it would be great for things to go well through the night, too!

BTW, I didn't mean to imply earlier that I feel anyone in this thread would give me a hard time about sleep training. You've all been nothing but supportive! Just too much Internet...you understand. :shrug:

Stephie, I never answered your earlier question about why I decided to try it again now. No particular reason...just conversations recently with a friend and with DH. I feel like, if I don't expect him to SS, I am teaching him that he needs to rely on me to go to sleep. It just feels a bit silly when I really believe he can do it on his own. A month ago I didn't think he could, but now I do. So I guess I'm just catching up to my own thoughts. In fact if I'd been looking for the perfect time, this probably wouldn't have been it, because he's made some breakthroughs in gross motor development AND it's the height of a wonder week. :shrug: I guess it comes down to the fact that despite all that I simply think he's ready!

Amy, I'm sorry for not responding to you before, I hope you have some better nights :hugs: what you described is what we call the pirate crawl! :lol: Mine is doing some hybrid of that and butt scooting. Whatever works!

I hope everyone else is having better nights, too :hugs:


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## stephie_corin

Polaris, I'm keeping Clara in my thoughts and hoping she makes a speedy recovery. If it's any consolation, at least she is building up some good immunity now. Our paediatrician friend is of the view that these early childhood sicknesses are important to strengthen the immune system. I do hope it's just a virus and she is on the mend soon. I hope you managed to get some sleep also. Being a mother is so hard when they are sick.

Bananaz, so glad you have great night sleep now!! Awesome news!

Boo, thank you so much. You're very sweet :) good luck with your pregnancy. I hope you manage to get some rest before baby number two arrives!!

SE. No crying already?! Wow! I think your mummy instincts were spot on and he is ready! You should feel proud of yourself for being such a caring and responsive mummy. How cute that Munchkin has developed his own special crawl technique!

Our nights are definitely getting better. We had a few crying moments (which I'm sure are due to his crazy slow teething) but he slept a few 1.5 hour stretches and settled pretty quickly. Thanks again everyone for the support yesterday. I was feeling like a bit of a failure. I really do try hard to be a good mummy, and it sucks when you realise you've made a huge mistake. It's nice to be supported by friends when you have those low moments - so thank you.


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## seaweed eater

So glad to hear your night was better :hugs: I still wouldn't consider what you did to have been a failure. Maybe he really did do better on 2 naps for some time. There was a reason you switched. Their needs really do change! I hope you are ok and getting some rest yourself :hugs:

Our night was good!! He was up 3x (including 60 mins after sleeping) and didn't resettle himself without nursing any of the times, but he _almost_ did once. It was the 2 AM waking so I think you all are right that that's the feed to drop! The best part, though, is that he went back to sleep 5:15-6:15 :happydance: no idea whether that has to do with the change in routine but it was certainly nice!!

Yeah his crawl is cute. I guess it counts as a "crawl" because he's forward on his arms, but neither leg is in classic quadruped position. He also goes diagonally at the moment :haha: I'm sure it will change as he becomes more efficient! I still think he may be walking soon anyway so maybe it's just a short term solution! But I think it really helped him at daycare so I'm thrilled about that.


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## bababas

seaweed eater said:


> I'm sorry I've been such a terrible thread citizen. This week has been very busy, and I'm very confused. LO is barely napping and seems tired during the day, but he is sleeping much better at night. Last night was actually the best one ever (asleep 7-4:30 and 5-6, and I got my longest stretch since he was born, too). Is it possible that he's too overtired to be waking up at night? I didn't think that was possible.
> 
> He was at daycare the whole day yesterday and he had one 35-min nap in his crib. Which is a success, but one that's hard to get excited about! I can't really rearrange my schedule next week to go in and sit with him while he SS for all his naps, and I'm not going to ask them to sleep train him without me there. I'm not comfortable with it. :(
> 
> Hope you are all feeling well today and had a good night last night :hugs:

so happy for your long stretch of sleep. my ds1 slept less than ds2 during the day. and he sttn at 5 months. was a better sleeper in general :D.

oh i havent been around either. my dad was here from germany. we had aron's baptism, and just been busy! and more visitors from germany. and thursday we go WAY NORTH. 8°C it says. buhu! why!


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## bababas

stephie_corin said:


> Seychelles is really great, the fresh air is wonderful and I am drinking lots of fresh coconut water! It's lots of fun... The local guys sell them on the beach and hack them open with a machete in front of you. Cully is loving practicing his new straw drinking skills with the coconuts.
> 
> Oh, one exciting development I forgot to mention: since shaking up his routine he is now breast feeding at 830ish, 1230ish and 7ish... But I am having some success with an afternoon feed around 5pm! I'm so pleased!! It's the first time he's feed at a non-sleep time for months and months.
> 
> Hope everyone is well xxx

mmmm miss coconut water :cry: bf seems going great :thumbup: good good


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## bababas

polaris said:


> I take it all back - the B&B curse got me good last night! We had a really terrible night and I really have no idea why. :cry: She was just really unsettled, waking very frequently and unable to get back to sleep for ages. I did give pain relief even though I don't think she is teething but it didn't seem to help much. Sometimes I just run out of reasons why she's not sleeping. I really hope it was just a once off or I will be picking all your brains for suggestions.

:hugs: hope it is better now. im reading way back in the thread coz i havent had time.


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## bababas

Noelle610 said:


> NOOOO BnB curse. I think Charlie is just in this weird transitional phase where 2 naps are too many and 1 is not enough. She woke at 7 yesterday and then napped from 9:30-10:30 and again from 1:45-3:30. So of course she wasn't tired enough to sleep at bedtime. For some reason, I just find that really stressful!

Aron is starting this. 3 too many, 2 too few. hehe. hate it. he can go 2.5hrs in the morning. just wont sleep after 2hrs, and is just happy. but all this makes the 3rd nap sooo late. and ble... i want him to go to bed early not later.... so i walk with him at 5pm to make him sleep in his pram. i try to cook dinner before that now. which mostly fails so i end up later than 5pm ...


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## bababas

SORRY girls. i just realised that i have been quoting really old NEWS posts. coz i tried to catch up where i left off since my dad came from germany for a visit.

now i read everything and have too much information in my brain all is mixed into one dough :haha: well i will stop answering super old posts i think it is better i start off here. but i will go north by thursday.

anyway an update here. yesterday was ok, except he woke up right away before i could go swimming. and i cried to OH please make him sleep!!! i need to get to go me time! OH managed to make him sleep! i was quick 30 min. when i came back he was asleep! that never happened.

then he woke 00:30, 3:00 and 5, and 7. which is ok. or the usual, nothing worse. just drinks and sleeps. the other day was worse. he drank a lot, but at least just drink and sleep. i think he is just in constant growth spurts since he was born :haha: everybody says he is huge!

he wants to wake 2,5hrs now after morning. also after that nap. but i try to make it 2hrs before the 2nd nap so he wont go to sleep too late for his 3rd nap. 

im a bit scared when he will drop his 3rd nap. coz then i would have to put him to bed earlier.... like 7-8, but i have ds1, who will be noisy, his bed time is, well shower 7.30, then reading... if he aint sleepy he talks in his bed for some time until he falls asleep.... now we do ds1 first to bed. then i go up with aron 8.30pm to make him sleep. but seems like he aint so sleepy anymore around these times. he is usually awake 3 hours before bed time. it seems he is going for longer stretches. hate these transitions. would love to keep the schedule of toddler first to bed then lo.


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## bababas

another thing aron started sleeping on his stomach. seems to be his favourite position now. maybe thats why yesterday was a good night. well for me, coz im not used to any better :haha:


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## Noelle610

Stephie, I crow you "Queen of Sleep". Take care of everyone, darling! :hug:


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## seaweed eater

Noelle, I want to thank you for starting this thread. It and your advice have been invaluable to me and I'm sure to many others!


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## seaweed eater

I hope everyone's having a good night. I'm a little scared of what tonight will bring. LO was super excited about crawling and cruising around and stayed up over an hour past his usual bedtime. He napped for a few minutes in the car (which he only does maybe 70% of the time now) so I'm sure that didn't help matters. I tried putting him down at 7 as usual but didn't want to put him in bed and then have to force the issue since we're sleep training now. I'm glad we waited, because bedtime was much easier than it would have been, but I'm afraid he'll be up super early tomorrow morning, etc.


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## stephie_corin

Noelle, you aren't going anywhere are you??!

Bababas, I'm so glad your OH managed to get Aron down! That's awesome news! If you are nervous about the boys' schedules clashing, I wonder if (when the third nap is dropped) you could play around with Aron'a schedule and get his bedtime to fall half hour later. Maybe let him sleep longer in the morning or take a longer afternoon nap.

SE, Munchkin is just having too much fun it seems! I hope he sleeps well and sleeps in :)

Our night was good - 1.5 hourly stretches I think and he was reasonably easy to settle. So we are now officially GWTF (going with the flow) and I'm open to him some days taking two naps and some days three (thanks Amy, it's good to hear this works for you guys!). I think it all depends on the length of his first nap, but I'm not going to extend his naps anymore. When he wakes, he wakes! 

I'm working on some 'rules' to help guide me a little, so we aren't strictly GWTF I guess.

My next thing to tackle is rocking to sleep. I know I tried to fix this before with little success but I NEED to get it under control. I feel like rocking to sleep all through the night defeats many of the benefits of cosleeping. I have to sit up in bed and rock him at every waking. 

Any ideas?? I feel stuck and not sure where to start. Should I just slowly stop rocking so much? I've tried cuddling him, jiggling him, nursing lying down but none of it works.


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## NotNic

Stephie do you think it's the motion or the closeness to you? My gut feeling is that cold turkey is your best approach, especially as you'll be next to him through the night. Or perhaps just do no rocking once he's initially gone to sleep. A reassuring hand on his tummy / back depending on which way he sleeps or maybe a cuddle of its the heartbeat he needs. Or is there a part on him that you can rub that makes him sleepy? It's F's forehead and cheekbone that lulls him to sleep (though he will take my hand off if he's fighting it :haha) for my niece it's up and down the bridge of her nose. My nephews were both their ear lobes. While officially that's still motion, its a good stepping stone to self-soothing. My niece and F both nuzzle against loveys and blankets to nod off on their own. Also on your pp, really don't worry about suggesting awake times to others. I'm sure your advice has been invaluable to many, and I'm sure just as many have been helped reading about you reverting to 3 naps. I bet there are a lot of people who lack the confidence to give up on a routine that isn't working because they feel like they're failing. Well done Hun xx

Boo - on the 2-1 nap thing I reckon you are right in trying to extend the morning wake time. We had a painful month of pushing his naps back by 15mins until we found the best time was 10.30 or 11am. It means he has lunch later but it works. He normally has 2 hrs and I give him 30mins at least before lunch so he's properly awake. Some days he will need a cat nap at 4pm but they are fewer now as long as he has at least 2hrs. If he doesn't then he will sometimes need an hour depending on how busy the day has been. We tried to push the nap until after lunch but really he needs a 20-30 min nap mid-morning to make that possible, and i dont like waking him from a cot nap. My top tips for keeping him awake is to arrange an activity to coincide with nap time (sounds crazy, but it works for us) whether its a trip to the supermarket or a baby activity. Sometimes Finlay will briefly nod off en route and those 10mins will keep him going. He does the opposite at nursery now, with an early cat nap around 9.45 (20mins ish) and then 2/2.5 hrs at 12.30. On nursery days he's up 5.45ish and in the school by 7.15am though and his morning nap tends to be in the snug, where he can still hear the children play. Also since holiday his preferred wake time on non-school days is usually after 6am now. Only 30mins later but so much more palatable! :) Hope the pregnancy is going well lovely. We're contemplating TTCing soon. Honestly how tricky is it being pregnant when you have a pickle on your hands? :) x


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## kitabird

Aaach! LO had been doing so well with his night time sleep the past few weeks and now it's all gone wrong! He was sleeping from around 7:30 - 5:30 with a couple of wake ups but resettling easily. Now for the past few nights he's been very unsettled. Last night he was awake from 2 until 5, doing a mixture of grumbling, crying and then going quiet to get our hopes up! Could he be hitting 8 month regression early? He is trying to crawl at the moment (still nowhere near but desperate to be moving) and isn't teething at the moment. Any advice would be appreciated :flower:


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## stephie_corin

Thanks so much NotNic - I do think it's the motion, because even hugging him really close at night won't put him to sleep. I rocked him for his first nap before I read your post but not for his second nap... He had such trouble falling asleep! He's just now nursing to sleep after 5 hours since his last nap. Usually I rock him until he is sleepy and then nurse him (or vice versa). So it looks like a two nap day! I think you're right though - cold turkey is probably the best way. I stroked his hair just now and it seems to have helped wind him down. 

I'm not looking forward to tonight! Lol!

Kitabird, it could well be crawling! I'm sorry you are having bad sleep right now. How do you respond to the night wakings?


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## kitabird

If he's just grumbling I leave him to it. When he gets upset we do pupd, which had progressed to just stroking his tummy rather than picking up. Last night nothing worked, he just didn't want to sleep. Eventually he'd been up so long that he was hungry, but even nursing didn't send him off, although I think it helped as he was asleep 5 or 10 mins after.
We have the rocking to sleep problem during the day. I end up going out in the pushchair most of the time because my back couldn't take pacing up and down with him anymore!


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## bababas

seaweed eater said:


> I hope everyone's having a good night. I'm a little scared of what tonight will bring. LO was super excited about crawling and cruising around and stayed up over an hour past his usual bedtime. He napped for a few minutes in the car (which he only does maybe 70% of the time now) so I'm sure that didn't help matters. I tried putting him down at 7 as usual but didn't want to put him in bed and then have to force the issue since we're sleep training now. I'm glad we waited, because bedtime was much easier than it would have been, but I'm afraid he'll be up super early tomorrow morning, etc.

did he just start crawling? if so congratulations :)

hope he wont wake up too early.


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## bababas

stephie_corin said:


> Noelle, you aren't going anywhere are you??!
> 
> Bababas, I'm so glad your OH managed to get Aron down! That's awesome news! If you are nervous about the boys' schedules clashing, I wonder if (when the third nap is dropped) you could play around with Aron'a schedule and get his bedtime to fall half hour later. Maybe let him sleep longer in the morning or take a longer afternoon nap.
> 
> SE, Munchkin is just having too much fun it seems! I hope he sleeps well and sleeps in :)
> 
> Our night was good - 1.5 hourly stretches I think and he was reasonably easy to settle. So we are now officially GWTF (going with the flow) and I'm open to him some days taking two naps and some days three (thanks Amy, it's good to hear this works for you guys!). I think it all depends on the length of his first nap, but I'm not going to extend his naps anymore. When he wakes, he wakes!
> 
> I'm working on some 'rules' to help guide me a little, so we aren't strictly GWTF I guess.
> 
> My next thing to tackle is rocking to sleep. I know I tried to fix this before with little success but I NEED to get it under control. I feel like rocking to sleep all through the night defeats many of the benefits of cosleeping. I have to sit up in bed and rock him at every waking.
> 
> Any ideas?? I feel stuck and not sure where to start. Should I just slowly stop rocking so much? I've tried cuddling him, jiggling him, nursing lying down but none of it works.

Where is Noelle going to? hope she stays. :)

i had an idea for when aron quits his 2nd nap. by then ívar starts day care again, he is in sumer vacation now, hence bit later bedtime coz i make them nap at the same time. by then ívar will go to the next class, i dont think they have naps. so he will be going to bed earlier by then. exactly when aron turns 6 months. so i will be putting them down 7 for sure :haha: since ivar has to wake early which will prolly wake aron.

have you tried letting OH make him fall asleep? or just lying him down on top of you? that works on aron when he is cranky on napping. or just sleep beside him and see what happens?


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## bababas

kitabird said:


> If he's just grumbling I leave him to it. When he gets upset we do pupd, which had progressed to just stroking his tummy rather than picking up. Last night nothing worked, he just didn't want to sleep. Eventually he'd been up so long that he was hungry, but even nursing didn't send him off, although I think it helped as he was asleep 5 or 10 mins after.
> We have the rocking to sleep problem during the day. I end up going out in the pushchair most of the time because my back couldn't take pacing up and down with him anymore!

hope it is a short phase due to the crawling thingy. and he will be back to sleeping soon.


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## bababas

update on us.

on monday, OH managed to make aron fall asleep for night time while i was swimming. thats a big thing, that has never worked before.

tonight 0:30 he moved around a bit i gave him his pacifier, he took it and slept til 1:30 :happydance: almost never happens. and he started lying on his stomach. i think it is his new favourite thing. slept til 4 :happydance: so only 3 feedings. 1:30, 4 and 6. :happydance:

i wonder if it has anything to do with that he likes to sleep on his stomach or that we started giving him puree. 

but maybe tonight will be different :haha:


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## polaris

I feel like I've fallen way behind again!

Clara is much better, so it obviously was just a viral infection and not measles thank goodness! Her sleep was still absolutely terrible last night though, she did one long stretch in the early evening (2.5 hours) and then woke every 15 minutes or so for pretty much the rest of the night. I really hope this improves once she is fully better!

Stephie - I don't think you should feel bad about moving to two naps and then moving back to three. Later on I'm going to look back through this thread and find some of my posts about this EXACT same issue. Cully and Clara are like sleep clones sometimes! With regard to the rocking to sleep, I think I would be inclined to go cold turkey. However I would wait until you are feeling strong and committed as it will probably involve a few rough nights. I think if you are right there lying beside him stroking his hair or nursing him if he wants it, there's no way that he can feel abandoned or frightened, so if he is crying it is just because he wants to go to sleep but can't quite get it figured out. I am going to try this with Clara for some of her multiple night feeds in about a month when she's a year old.

SE - hope your night went well despite the later bedtime.

Noelle - thank you so much for everything, if you do go then I really wish you and Charlotte all the best. :hugs:


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## mellyboo

I havent been on here in a long time I've just been so tired and were leaving for vacation Friday morning.. 

SO when i think her sleeping can't get any worse it does seriously frig my life.

Last 2 nights were having 4 am partys in the crib and they last until 6 am although 4 am is when she is waking up for the first time which is great but seriously staying up for 2 whole hours in your crib ... really?? 

Yesterday absoulte refused to nap she stayed in her crib for a whole 3 hours i don't usually give in to her she doesn't cry nope just plays around and is super content being in there at the 3 hour mark i finally went and got her out because she wasn't napping ... she finally fell asleep around 2ish which just set off her entire day i ended up putting her to bed around 730ish-8 because she was just so exhausted from fighting sleep all day she was crashing.. 

Honestly, I can't wait to try and sleep train her when we get back because honestly her 4am partys are rough i think i'd rather wake up 4 times.


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## bababas

polaris said:


> I feel like I've fallen way behind again!
> 
> Clara is much better, so it obviously was just a viral infection and not measles thank goodness! Her sleep was still absolutely terrible last night though, she did one long stretch in the early evening (2.5 hours) and then woke every 15 minutes or so for pretty much the rest of the night. I really hope this improves once she is fully better!
> 
> Stephie - I don't think you should feel bad about moving to two naps and then moving back to three. Later on I'm going to look back through this thread and find some of my posts about this EXACT same issue. Cully and Clara are like sleep clones sometimes! With regard to the rocking to sleep, I think I would be inclined to go cold turkey. However I would wait until you are feeling strong and committed as it will probably involve a few rough nights. I think if you are right there lying beside him stroking his hair or nursing him if he wants it, there's no way that he can feel abandoned or frightened, so if he is crying it is just because he wants to go to sleep but can't quite get it figured out. I am going to try this with Clara for some of her multiple night feeds in about a month when she's a year old.
> 
> SE - hope your night went well despite the later bedtime.
> 
> Noelle - thank you so much for everything, if you do go then I really wish you and Charlotte all the best. :hugs:

good that is is not measles polaris. hope the sleep gets better after she is well. aron had a terrible cold at about 3 months followed by another one, that was like 1 month no sleep for me.


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## bababas

mellyboo said:


> I havent been on here in a long time I've just been so tired and were leaving for vacation Friday morning..
> 
> SO when i think her sleeping can't get any worse it does seriously frig my life.
> 
> Last 2 nights were having 4 am partys in the crib and they last until 6 am although 4 am is when she is waking up for the first time which is great but seriously staying up for 2 whole hours in your crib ... really??
> 
> Yesterday absoulte refused to nap she stayed in her crib for a whole 3 hours i don't usually give in to her she doesn't cry nope just plays around and is super content being in there at the 3 hour mark i finally went and got her out because she wasn't napping ... she finally fell asleep around 2ish which just set off her entire day i ended up putting her to bed around 730ish-8 because she was just so exhausted from fighting sleep all day she was crashing..
> 
> Honestly, I can't wait to try and sleep train her when we get back because honestly her 4am partys are rough i think i'd rather wake up 4 times.

that is rough. i remember when they refuse to nap at that later age. mine lo is headed there soon i guess. time flies.


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## polaris

polaris said:


> Things here are good - after a few days of very late naps and late bedtimes, Clara took a third nap today from 4.45 to 5.30 and was asleep by 7.15 and hasn't woken up yet. * I wonder if we are back to three naps again for the moment - and if so, maybe some of our difficulties were due to having dropped the third nap too soon? * The annoying thing is that if we are back to three naps, then we'll have to go through the transition to two naps in another month or so, so as soon as I get her into a good routine it will all change again! :dohh:

Stephie, this was back in the middle of April so Clara was nearly 8 months and had been on two naps for a good two months. As it turned out, she only went back to three naps for about two weeks and then settled into a much more predictable pattern of two regular long naps during the day. 

One thing that going through this final nap transition with Thomas is teaching me, is that it is probably pretty normal for them to have some days/weeks where they need to nap more than others. With Thomas, he is older so he can tell me if he's tired or not and it's just generally more obvious from his behaviour. He has gone through stretches where he really seems ready to drop the nap totally and other stretches where he really obviously still needs it. So really why should the other nap transitions be any different? I think nap transitions are naturally more of a gradual process rather than something that happens abruptly. Although for parental convenience an abrupt transition would be the preferred option!!


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## mellyboo

bababas said:


> mellyboo said:
> 
> 
> I havent been on here in a long time I've just been so tired and were leaving for vacation Friday morning..
> 
> SO when i think her sleeping can't get any worse it does seriously frig my life.
> 
> Last 2 nights were having 4 am partys in the crib and they last until 6 am although 4 am is when she is waking up for the first time which is great but seriously staying up for 2 whole hours in your crib ... really??
> 
> Yesterday absoulte refused to nap she stayed in her crib for a whole 3 hours i don't usually give in to her she doesn't cry nope just plays around and is super content being in there at the 3 hour mark i finally went and got her out because she wasn't napping ... she finally fell asleep around 2ish which just set off her entire day i ended up putting her to bed around 730ish-8 because she was just so exhausted from fighting sleep all day she was crashing..
> 
> Honestly, I can't wait to try and sleep train her when we get back because honestly her 4am partys are rough i think i'd rather wake up 4 times.
> 
> that is rough. i remember when they refuse to nap at that later age. mine lo is headed there soon i guess. time flies.Click to expand...


She was never bad at all she used to be around 4-5 months then she got super good.. now its getting harder and oh my is she ever cranky because she just won't nap no matter what i do lol... I have a feeling this vacation isn't going as smoothly as the one she's going to have to nap in her stroller because we are going with my parents and its kinda on there time type of thing lol


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## stephie_corin

polaris said:


> polaris said:
> 
> 
> Things here are good - after a few days of very late naps and late bedtimes, Clara took a third nap today from 4.45 to 5.30 and was asleep by 7.15 and hasn't woken up yet. * I wonder if we are back to three naps again for the moment - and if so, maybe some of our difficulties were due to having dropped the third nap too soon? * The annoying thing is that if we are back to three naps, then we'll have to go through the transition to two naps in another month or so, so as soon as I get her into a good routine it will all change again! :dohh:
> 
> Stephie, this was back in the middle of April so Clara was nearly 8 months and had been on two naps for a good two months. As it turned out, she only went back to three naps for about two weeks and then settled into a much more predictable pattern of two regular long naps during the day.
> 
> One thing that going through this final nap transition with Thomas is teaching me, is that it is probably pretty normal for them to have some days/weeks where they need to nap more than others. With Thomas, he is older so he can tell me if he's tired or not and it's just generally more obvious from his behaviour. He has gone through stretches where he really seems ready to drop the nap totally and other stretches where he really obviously still needs it. So really why should the other nap transitions be any different? I think nap transitions are naturally more of a gradual process rather than something that happens abruptly. Although for parental convenience an abrupt transition would be the preferred option!!Click to expand...


Thank you so much Polaris! This makes me feel so much better... It's uncanny how similar they are! I really believed that nap transitions were a linear thing but hey, what are a few more words for me to eat!


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## AmyS

SE - How did your night go? Glad he was easy to settle, but hope you didn't get up quite as early as we did this morning!

Queen Stephie - Another good night for you both! Not sure what to do about the rocking to sleep - that's got to be hard on your back! I agree with NotNic, that your best approach might be cold turkey, but you'll have to pick something that is soothing to him. 

kitabird - We went through the rough patch at night too when Chloe was trying to crawl.

bababas - Chloe started sleeping better too once she was sleeping on her stomach. That's a good night for you!

polaris - Glad Clara is feeling better! Hopefully her sleep will improve, I can't imagine every 15 minutes! That's rough!

Melly - I hate 4am!! If Chloe wakes up at that time, I pretty much have to hold her to keep her sleeping. From 4-6 is such a light sleep for a lot of babies, I've heard. I hope your vacation is lovely!
_____________________

We had a bit of a rough night last night. She didn't want to settle until around midnight, and then she was restless on and off. Finally she woke up for the day at 5:15. I dropped her off at daycare with the "She's cranky," warning. Lucky them! Hope she naps for them today!

I also got asked specifically today if I hold her for naps, because they haven't been able to put her down to sleep in her crib at daycare. So I HAVE to start working on that!!! I just feel like if I don't hold her, then she will never get a good nap in, and our nights will start getting bad again!! I'm not sure how to get her used to her crib for naps. Not looking forward to this.


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## kitabird

stephie_corin said:


> polaris said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> polaris said:
> 
> 
> Things here are good - after a few days of very late naps and late bedtimes, Clara took a third nap today from 4.45 to 5.30 and was asleep by 7.15 and hasn't woken up yet. * I wonder if we are back to three naps again for the moment - and if so, maybe some of our difficulties were due to having dropped the third nap too soon? * The annoying thing is that if we are back to three naps, then we'll have to go through the transition to two naps in another month or so, so as soon as I get her into a good routine it will all change again! :dohh:
> 
> Stephie, this was back in the middle of April so Clara was nearly 8 months and had been on two naps for a good two months. As it turned out, she only went back to three naps for about two weeks and then settled into a much more predictable pattern of two regular long naps during the day.
> 
> One thing that going through this final nap transition with Thomas is teaching me, is that it is probably pretty normal for them to have some days/weeks where they need to nap more than others. With Thomas, he is older so he can tell me if he's tired or not and it's just generally more obvious from his behaviour. He has gone through stretches where he really seems ready to drop the nap totally and other stretches where he really obviously still needs it. So really why should the other nap transitions be any different? I think nap transitions are naturally more of a gradual process rather than something that happens abruptly. Although for parental convenience an abrupt transition would be the preferred option!!Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Thank you so much Polaris! This makes me feel so much better... It's uncanny how similar they are! I really believed that nap transitions were a linear thing but hey, what are a few more words for me to eat!Click to expand...

Reading this, I think nap transition might be part of it too. He has mostly been refusing his third nap recently. Unfortunately he's a catnapper, so that means he only totals about an hour of sleep a day. He woke from his second nap at 1:50, it's now 5:50 and he's wanting to go to bed :dohh:


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## stephie_corin

Kitabird, pupd never worked for us - its great it worked for you! Depending on how patient you are feeling you could give it a few more days to see if he sorts things out by himself or you could start sleep training. I find the MOTN parties usually happen around milestone time.

Bababas!! What a great update from you! Maybe Aron is a stomach sleeper? I've heard a lot of babies sleep better on their tummies! Unfortunately Cully will only sleep once rocked... I will get DH to practice putting him down though, thanks!

Polaris, I am so sorry her sleep is so bad. I'm glad she's better but you need some rest! How are you holding up? You're right about waiting... I started today but he became hysterical and the only way I could calm him was by rocking. I need to make sure he's not teething or anything as well as being mentally prepared!

Melly, I'm sorry you are having such a hard time. I hope you have a good vacation and things are ok when you are away. I agree with Amy - 4am is rough!!

Amy, you poor thing! So you got less than 5 hours sleep :( I don't know what the answer is with naps... Cully would never nap if I didn't rock him and lie with him. Have you tried the drowsy but awake approach? You could gently transition away from holding her for the whole nap... Maybe shorten the amount you hold her each time?

Kitabird, I just saw your update - Cully is a cat napper too and I got longer naps from him once we switched to 2 naps.

I have no idea what is going on tonight. He's woken 5 times in the space of about 1.5 hours crying hysterically :( we just gave him some iboprufen so hopefully that helps.


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## seaweed eater

Bababas, sorry to have missed some of your earlier posts but it sounds like a really great update! :thumbup: Stomach sleeping is so wonderful for some babies. I remember someone on this thread saying that that could be a big part of why some babies become better sleepers when they're older than when they're newborn -- because they learn to roll over! I hope the better sleep continues :happydance: how was last night?

NotNic, thank you for posting about your nap transition. Your approach makes a lot of sense, but I haven't heard of anyone doing things quite that way so it's good to read about! Will keep in mind for when we hit that stage. Hope you are both doing well...I agree, the difference between 5:30 and 6 is huge! :thumbup:

Kitabird, sounds like about the right time for a nap transition, I'm afraid :( I'm sorry your nights are so rough at the moment. I think you may be right about the crawling. Mine finally just started moving but he's been rocking and backward crawling and inching around for months, and we certainly had some sleep disruption when he first started doing all of that. I hope it gets better soon :hugs: I would give it a few more days if you feel you can.
Regarding naps, as the mother of a chronic catnapper I will just say that it doesn't have to be the kiss of death that it seems. Switching to two naps, as Stephie said, will probably fix things -- it did for every baby I've ever heard of except my own. :haha: And mine still got through it all right. I think for the same reason he finds it hard to stay asleep sometimes -- distractibility -- he also can manage to push through long wake times when necessary. So I'm sure you will be fine either way, if this is the right time to make the transition (and it sounds like it is).

Melly, I'm so sorry about your MOTN struggles. 4 AM is so demoralizing. Soon you'll be on to sleep training and it will all be a memory! Hang in there :hugs:

Amy, sorry about your restless night. :hugs: Midnight is late! I think you'll find an approach that works for both of you and that she'll adapt well to getting into her crib. You did so well with her nighttime sleep and getting her out of the rock 'n' play. You seem to really have been able to tailor your approach to her temperament and to what you're comfortable with, and I'm sure your intuition will lead you the right away again with this. I don't think you have to worry about your nights getting bad -- maybe temporarily but maybe not, and if they do, I'm sure they will go right back to being better again.
So, how did today go at daycare? Did she nap well?

Polaris, so glad to hear it isn't measles!! :hugs: I'm really sorry about every 15 minutes. I remember that so well from a couple weekends ago. It is so so draining. I hope she is better very soon and you can both get some rest. Hang in there.

Stephie, poor little C, and poor you!! :hugs: I hope he settled down and you got some long stretches in tonight. Such a long rough patch for you guys...you are due for some better days soon. And some teeth. <3

AFM... listen to this: Munchkin took a 1.5-hour nap at daycare today!!!! :wohoo: I know it probably will not happen again for a month, but proof of the possibility is very encouraging. It means he resettled himself at 45 (that's always the case when he takes long naps, plus they saw him do it today) which means he is finally maybe getting used to his daycare crib!

Also, tonight was night 4 of sleep training and I was scared of bedtime going badly again, since night 4 can be a tough one, but it was completely fine. :happydance: we'll see what tonight brings. Last night was good in the end...so far I haven't had to leave him to cry in the middle of the night yet. I know it will happen soon, and I'm nervous about that. Maybe tonight will be the night.

This is far too much. I know the curse is inevitable now. :shrug:


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## seaweed eater

Oh I also meant to say, speaking of all the nap transitions, that I wonder whether Munchkin is already in his 2-1 transition or whether he'll go back to 2 once he's more comfortable going to sleep at daycare. Obviously it's not optimal for him, and if he were at home he'd still be on 2 every day, but he does seem to have somehow settled into a real one-nap schedule -- his nap usually starts around 12-1 PM. :shrug: It seems like the other shoe will have to drop sometime but for now I don't really have any choice but to go with it...


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## stephie_corin

SE!!! What a fantastic update! I'm so happy for you! STAY AWAY CURSE! I know it's super early but I have spoken to SO many mums who have said their babies were on 1 nap at 10 months (ok, so it's only 2 or 3 mummies but I still think it's more common than we are led to believe). I think that if Munchkin is happy then it's fine for him to take one nap. Or two when he is at home and one at day care.

We had a rough night. I think it's teething but who knows. How can a baby be teething for months and have only two tiny teeth?! I'm sure we are in the middle of a developmental leap too. The last few days he has been letting go of things and standing for a few seconds and his cruising is getting really good too. 

It's been very challenging for me to GWTF. I've said before how much I struggle without a routine or formula. I know many of you are the same! I'm hoping this regression/teething/developmental leap passes and we go back to a more predictable routine soon! 

I hope everyone has a good night!


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## NotNic

Seaweed - Finlay and I are sleep training rebels! :haha: He regularly naps past 4pm and I rarely limit his naps. I'm all for an easy life!! :) Though I did shoot myself in the foot about revealing a slightly later wake up call as he treated me to a 5.15am this morning. However I stuck firm and didnt get him up until after 6am. I don't want him getting the idea that's a good time to wake up! :) Those extra 30mins make all the difference to his and my grumpiness levels. 

I agree that munchkin may be ready to begin transitioning. Finlay started at 10mths but he's now 14mths and still needs that little cat nap to help him some days. We found he would have some weeks of one naps, others of two and even once he settled in to nursery - 3 nap days for them! Unheard of! Before I joined this thread I didn't know babies needed 3 naps c.6mths. Such a sleep training doofus! :D Something I forgot to mention when we just began transitioning was that we used cuddle and quiet time to calm him down. Often he'd get to 5pm and be in a real tizz where he'd refuse that second nap. Turning it into a nice time out really helped us to improve his mood. Good luck!

Stephie as you probably can tell, im a bit more GWTF. Find yourself some timings that help you out. We have one sort of rule for night time and that's if we are home he must be in his cot by 8pm. He can play or listen to music, but after that its mummy and daddy's time. No books, no cuddles etc. Sure we go up if he's upset and there are some days he's completely hyper, so we end up bringing him back down but the 8pm thing really seems to work. He now gets cuddly about 7.45 and tells us he's ready to go up. It's also a firm stop so the day doesn't drag on. Are there things his does around the same time? Find those and fix your day around them, or go out. He can sleep if he's in his stroller and you can get on with things. Be a daredevil and do your timings rather than his. :)


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## AmyS

SE - Great daycare nap!! Maybe your ST at night is helping? Repeat after me, "There is no curse, there is no curse, there is no curse".

Stephie - Love the new pic!!! He has changed so much from your old pic! Sorry for the rough night, but they are much easier to cope with when you know that a big leap is on it's way. That is amazing that he is letting go of things and cruising so well! I can't wait until Chloe is at that stage! I know she's technically about the same age, but they still adjust her age developmentally by those 5 weeks she was born early, so I'm trying to be patient!

kitabird - I have noticed lately that Chloe actually sleeps better at night when she doesn't sleep so much during the day - have you noticed anything similar? 
______________

Chloe napped for 15 minutes in the morning at daycare yesterday! I picked her up at 1pm (for my afternoon off). We had plans to visit some friends right away, and fortunately, she wasn't really cranky! She did fall asleep on the way home, and I put her down instead of holding her - she slept for a total of 1 1/2 hours. I'm sure it would have been shorter if she hadn't have been so tired. 

I will keep putting her down for naps. If she wakes up within 30 minutes, I'll try rocking her back to sleep and putting her back down for now. If that doesn't seem to work, I'll have to come up with a different plan!


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## stephie_corin

NotNic, I find the whole one nap transition fascinating. I always assumed ALL babies took a long afternoon nap but that's clearly not the case! I really like your relaxed approach to naps. I'm trying to get better at watching Cully's cues and be more relaxed about the qhole thing... Unfortunately he won't sleep in his stroller and needs to be nursed to sleep - but since his naps went haywire he is nursing at non nap times. So maybe one to work on! One thing I noticed is that his sleep needs are more flexible than I thought, so we probably could try and work out a more mummy friendly routine! By the way, the no rocking is working great in the day but I can't seem to settle him at night without him becoming hysterical. So my plan is to wait until I'm certain he is not tired or teething and then try cold turkey on the rocking at night. 

Amy, I like your nap plan! If Cully wakes crying from a nap I usually help him back to sleep too. You've done great already on the transfer for naps. Well done! I've been meaning to ask you how you deal with fluctuating nap patterns? Do you have any rules? Is bedtime always the same regardless of number of naps or do you change it? If you go by wake times, what is your last wake time? Sorry for all the questions!

Do all babies have the same overtired symptoms? I can't figure out if Cully is overtired or undertired at the moment.


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## stephie_corin

Um... Weirdest thing just happened! C has been fussing in my arms for about twenty minutes while I try to rock him to sleep. He kept pushing me away so I popped him on the bed for a breather and he promptly fell asleep. He's now lying the wrong way diagonally across the bed between my legs. Doh! I'm scared to move him!


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## AmyS

Stephie - Our daily schedule is never the same because of daycare!! This is yesterday:

Wake: 5:15am
Nap 1: 9:00 - 9:15am
Nap 2: 2:30 - 4:00pm
Bedtime: 7:00pm

If I have no control over the day - because she's been in daycare all day - all I can really do is look at her last nap. I add 3 hours to whenever she woke up, and that is roughly our bedtime, unless she is really having a meltdown. Some days, her naps total less than an hour for the day, so she might be ready for bed as early as 6pm (and that's pushing it!). 

If I have the afternoon off, like yesterday, I make sure she gets one good nap in. I haven't been worrying about the length of the nap, so if it's 2 1/2 - 3 hours, I let her sleep. She's usually up from her nap by 4:30pm on those days, then we will have bedtime at 7:30pm.

On the weekends, it all depends on when she woke up. She gets tired about every 3 - 3.5 hours, so that's what I go by! If her first nap is short (30 minutes), then I know she'll probably end up with 3 naps for the day.

This is my definition of "go with the flow"!


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## AmyS

stephie_corin said:


> Um... Weirdest thing just happened! C has been fussing in my arms for about twenty minutes while I try to rock him to sleep. He kept pushing me away so I popped him on the bed for a breather and he promptly fell asleep. He's now lying the wrong way diagonally across the bed between my legs. Doh! I'm scared to move him!

Oh, he did it on his own! So cute, but now you're stuck! :haha:


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## polaris

stephie_corin said:


> Um... Weirdest thing just happened! C has been fussing in my arms for about twenty minutes while I try to rock him to sleep. He kept pushing me away so I popped him on the bed for a breather and he promptly fell asleep. He's now lying the wrong way diagonally across the bed between my legs. Doh! I'm scared to move him!

Wow that's brilliant! Maybe he's finally getting on the same page as you about stopping the rocking habit.

I find it impossible to tell if Clara is undertired or overtired. I veer between thinking I need to lengthen all her awake times and give her a later bedtime, to thinking the exact opposite. Today all her awake times have been short (but then she was up for a few hours last night practicing standing up so I guess she was maybe tired!).


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## kitabird

seaweed eater said:


> Kitabird, sounds like about the right time for a nap transition, I'm afraid :( I'm sorry your nights are so rough at the moment. I think you may be right about the crawling. Mine finally just started moving but he's been rocking and backward crawling and inching around for months, and we certainly had some sleep disruption when he first started doing all of that. I hope it gets better soon :hugs: I would give it a few more days if you feel you can.
> Regarding naps, as the mother of a chronic catnapper I will just say that it doesn't have to be the kiss of death that it seems. Switching to two naps, as Stephie said, will probably fix things -- it did for every baby I've ever heard of except my own. :haha: And mine still got through it all right. I think for the same reason he finds it hard to stay asleep sometimes -- distractibility -- he also can manage to push through long wake times when necessary. So I'm sure you will be fine either way, if this is the right time to make the transition (and it sounds like it is).

Last night wasn't as bad. He was awake from 4 til 5:30 then had another hour of sleep. I just hope this doesn't go on for too long :wacko: I'm sure once he's figured out crawling some more teeth will be ready to come out and disrupt things again! At least second time around I'm used to the unpredictability of it all! 
Catnapping is fine with me if he would sleep at night. I'm not going to pretend I'm not jealous of people whose babies take long naps though! I am going to try and steer him in the direction of two naps and hope he responds.
Glad the sleep training is going well for you. Fingers crossed it continues.

Amy - what I find is that Felix will sleep about the same number of hours in every 24 hours. So if he sleeps 11 hours out of 24 (not sure if that's right, but it was a while ago!) and has 1 hour of naps then he'll sleep 10 hours during the night. If he has 1 and a half hours of naps he'll sleep 9 and a half during the night etc.

Sorry I haven't replied to more posts, but my brain is really struggling...


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## seaweed eater

Stephie, wow, great that he settled without rocking tonight! I hope you're comfortable, if you're stuck :haha: I do think if he's able to do it during nap time, he will be able to adjust to doing it at night too. Hope you guys have a good night :hugs: love the new avatar pic btw!

I definitely don't think babies have the same overtired symptoms. When Munchkin's on his "second wind," he tends to become very focused and persistent, and he's actually very independent. My sense is that that's not similar to many other babies. He doesn't get particularly giggly, the way Polaris has mentioned Clara does.

Amy, how did your night go last night? :hugs: Glad Chloe was ok yesterday! 1 1/2 hours isn't bad.
It sounds like what you're doing regarding bedtime is working ok for you? We do BTC bedtime of 7 now most nights because any earlier and he's up too early in the morning. That means the second wake time is grotesquely long sometimes but I've found that I just can't keep him on a daily schedule if he's in bed much before 7.

NotNic, I remember reading a blog post or something about a mother who informed her family that a law had been passed saying that mothers' work hours were required to end at 8 PM. If they wanted something after 8, they'd have to do it for themselves because she was legally prohibited from working. Sounds a bit like your approach! :haha: I love it, I think boundaries like that are great. Works well for you, and you are teaching F to have respect and consideration for others.

Kitabird, I'm sorry about your 4 AM MOTN, those are really killer. :hugs: Hope you can catch up on some rest today. You're right, if it's not milestones, it's teeth, but you just have to do the best you can in your circumstances! Maybe teeth will be easier than this crawling stuff. You never know. :shrug:

Amy, I just can't bring myself to say that the curse isn't real... :argh:
BUT...no 2 AM feed last night!! :happydance: He just slept right through, or at least didn't cry enough to wake me. Exciting stuff!


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## stephie_corin

Amy, thanks for letting me know how you do things! I think that's great! It must be hard to do anything but go with the flow when she's at daycare. I've realised that the first nap is the most important too - less than 45 mins = 3 naps and more than 45 mins = 2 naps! Have you had any more luck with nap transfers? 

Polaris - congratulations to Clara on the standing! She'll be a toddler before you know it! No wonder her sleep has been so disrupted lately. She's hit a major milestone and has been sick. I'm exactly the same as you - I go from wanting to push him as long as possible between naps to wanting 3 naps every 2.5-3 hours! Sadly I've realised I have no control over things anymore.

Kitabird, any more improvements? I'm pleased for you that things seem better. You're right - the whole first year seems like one long regression! Good luck on two naps! I found increasing the first waketime to 2.5 hours helped a lot.

SE, it's interesting what you say about Munchkin being overtired. I do think after reading everyone's reply that they are all very different! Cully gets really uninterested in interactive play and just wants to crawl around madly until he suddenly starts melting down! I think I prefer Munchkin's second wind! How were his nap(s) at daycare? Is he doing full days in the new room now?

So last night the pushing away continued! I barely rocked him at all. Today I'm not rocking him for any naps and just letting him go until he's at meltdown point - mainly because there is no other indication he's ready for a nap. Without my help in getting him drowsy, he's so far done awake time of 3 hours, 1 hour nap, awake time of 4 hours (second nap currently underway!) and I'm undecided about the last wake time. He's just nursing to sleep when he's tired and it's working well so far. I do think if I continue to GWTF and let him nap when he's very tired, that the days of three naps are behind us... But I've been forced to eat my words before, so who knows!

Without the constant rocking I definitely feel better rested, even if the number of wakeups are the same.


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## kitabird

Stephie it sounds like things are going really well for you. Hope it continues :)
Last night he was up from 3 til 5:10, so not great. He then slept til 8 which was bizarre! Shame I have a toddler who wakes at 6:30! He fell asleep nursing around 10:30 for a few minutes and has just had a lunch time nap of almost an hour. I'm not sure what's going on but I would guess he won't want another nap and there's 6 hours til bedtime :wacko:


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## polaris

Stephie! Yay! That is so fantastic that he is going to sleep without rocking most of the time. He was obviously ready to do this! That will really make a big difference to your energy levels - it must have been absolutely exhausting rocking him every time he woke. Sometimes I barely have the energy to get the boob out for Clara so I honestly don't know how you have been doing it.

Thank you so much for your post earlier pointing out the reasons why Clara's sleep is disrupted at the moment. I really needed to hear that today! I've been feeling really disheartened, like her sleep is just getting worse and worse again. She's not even doing full sleep cycles at the moment and it is killing me! She also refused her morning nap today which is a first so we are having a one nap day (must be something in the air, kitabird, Clara fell asleep for a couple of minutes nursing too and then was wide awake and wouldn't go back to sleep until her usual p.m. nap time!) 

I have moved the clock beck into the bedroom for tonight so I can actually see how often she is waking up, maybe it feels like more often than it really is. But you are right, she has so much going on at the moment, between illness and developmental stuff, that it's probably no wonder that things are even worse than usual. I am just losing faith that things will get better without me taking some sort of action whereas a few weeks ago I was feeling so relaxed about her sleep. 

SE - I'm so pleased to read about your progress with Munchkin! At least one of us now have a baby who sleeps well!! It sounds like your timing was spot-on for restarting sleep training with him, you are clearly very tuned in to him and his needs.


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## AmyS

SE - Have daycare naps still been going well? Chloe had to be held for her afternoon nap yesterday - otherwise, she'd probably have been running on fumes by the time I picked her up.

Stephie - Don't you feel relieved about the rocking? It does seem like he was ready for this transition. (Your cute new pic prompted me to change my own, since I realized she's almost 3 months older now!) 

kitabird - That was quite a long MOTN party! Too bad your toddler didn't want to magically sleep in also!

polaris - How exciting that Clara is standing!!!! I am always amazed at how they learn so much, so quickly. 
__________________

I definitely can't complain about my nights anymore, but I sure wish she would nap at daycare! She screams when they try to put her down. I told them I would try putting her down all weekend, so hopefully she learns quickly. haha. I am not optimistic, since I've been holding her for all naps (with me) since birth. 

Last night though, she woke up at 3:15am, so I fed her, and I could tell that she was ready to party, because she kept kicking her feet on the arm of the chair. When she was done with her bottle, she decided to sing and talk to her ducky for an hour. Very cute, but thankfully she did go back to sleep.


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## stephie_corin

Amy, I meant to comment on your photo! I noticed it last night. I love it! She's so cute! She seems to have so much hair! And yes, I am so relieved about the rocking! I'm sure it's not over yet but as long as he doesn't need me to rock him, I am happy to oblige!

I'm sorry daycare are not having any luck with naps. I hope you do well on the weekend with it.

And you are such a patient mummy!! I don't cope well with MOTN parties and you always handle them with such good grace!


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## stephie_corin

Kitabird, that sounds so rough! You poor thing! I hope he takes another nap for you. He may surprise you - 6 hours is a long time! I honestly don't know how you, Polaris and Bababas cope with sleepless night when you have two to look after. Big hugs to you.

Polaris - my heart goes out to you. Poor Clara and poor you. At least it is the weekend tomorrow. Can DH watch Thomas while you take a nap? And ouch!!! One nap when you are that sleep deprived :( I know you like keeping her morning waketime short so you guys can head out but maybe it's time to give her another 15/30 minutes awake so she is more tired? Hopefully it was just a glitch because she wanted to practice standing again and she takes a nice long nap tomorrow morning for you. I'm so sorry thing are so bad right now. I will be keeping every finger crossed that her relatively good sleep returns.


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## polaris

Thanks - I'm hopeful that she might start sleeping a little bit better once she is fully recovered, she's still not really very well so I'm sure that is having an impact on her sleep. OH is on night shifts all weekend so he will need to sleep during the day, it could be a bit of a long weekend for me. More positively though, she self-settled again from wide awake at bedtime! I had given her a paracetamol suppository because she is really stifled with a cold and I'm sure it helped her to feel a little bit better, let's hope she sleeps a little bit longer too!

Amy - good luck with putting Chloe down for naps over the weekend - I hope it goes well for you and her naps at daycare improve. At least her nighttime sleep is good now, I'm sure naps will follow.

Bababas - that sounds like a good plan for when Aron drops his nap and Ivar starts daycare. It's so hard to get a workable bedtime routine with two, isn't it? I spend so much time plotting and planning how I can get them both to bed on time! I find it's definitely easier when I can get Thomas down first and then have time to settle Clara.

Hope everyone else is well. I'm going to try and get an early night!


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## seaweed eater

Stephie, how interesting about the rocking suddenly stopping, but it's great that you are feeling better rested! :thumbup: (I can only imagine, rocking such a big boy as often as yours wakes up!) I hope that continues! I think what you are doing in terms of GWTF is reasonable. That's usually the approach I take when Munchkin refuses a nap or bedtime. I find it very frustrating to try to put him down more than twice, and sometimes I think it actually lengthens his WT more than if I just waited, so I try to ensure he's ready the second time, even if that means he's a bit beyond ready.

Yes, Munchkin is actually pretty fun when overtired...until he hits meltdown mode. And yes, he's usually spending about 7-7.5 hours a day at daycare now. He's clearly doing sooooo much better in his new room. Such a relief. It took a full month for him to start feeling comfortable.

Polaris, :hugs: :hugs: so sorry you are having such a rough time. Stephie is right, there are reasons this is happening now, and it will pass!! As C recovers from the illness I bet she will at least start making it through cycles, and she'll get over her excitement about milestones, too. Can you wait just a week before deciding that some intervention might be needed? I'd be surprised if things aren't much better by then.

Please be kind to yourself, it's truly a challenge to even function with such interrupted sleep, and your children are lucky to have such a patient mother. :hugs: Hope you get some rest tonight.

Thank you also for saying what you did about the timing of our sleep training. It means a lot, since I still don't understand what happened with awful night 1, and since then I've felt uneasy about whether it was the right decision. But I do feel better about it with every good day.

Kitabird, so sorry about the latest MOTN. Honestly, I know it sucks, but I would wake him up at something closer to his usual time so that you can keep him on schedule. For us a weird morning or night has sometimes thrown things off for up to a few days, so I've become a believer in trying to somehow stay on a 24-hour cycle even if things shift a lot within each day. I hope the rest of your day went well. 6 hours is a long time to be awake!

Amy, I'm glad your nights are still going well but sorry about the crummy daycare naps! IIRC che was napping better there before? What do you think changed? She just started crawling a week or two ago, right -- maybe that has something to do with it? Adorable avatar pic btw! <3

AFM, things are still going really well, just a 4 AM feed last night. I was pretty nervous at bedtime since he wasn't as drowsy as usual but he still SS after rolling around for about 5 minutes, whew! Yesterday's daycare nap was nearly an hour so I assume he got to the second cycle but then was woken by noise or something. Definite progress. :thumbup:


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## stephie_corin

Polaris, I hope last night was better for you. I'm sorry OH won't be able to help this weekend. Solo baby/toddler duty must be so so hard. I've only done solo baby duty and there is no way I could have coped with a toddler too! You are amazing and you are doing a wonderful job.

SE, what a positive update! In so pleased for you! Great news about his day care nap too. I can't believe we are already talking in the singular for naps. Munchkin sounds like he's doing very well at daycare too! You must be really happy. And you're obviously a very sensitive mummy; you seem to pick the exact right moment to start your gentle sleep training.

Amy, how are things with you and Chloe? 

We had a really good night. I don't know if it's coincidence with the rocking stopping or some other strange combination of factors that I can't fathom. He woke hourly until midnight and then slept until 2, and then 4.30, 530 and finally 7!!! It's the latest he's ever slept. I'm hoping things continue.

I've been thinking about the rocking and I wonder if we were both finally ready. He may have been ready earlier and I just wasn't reading the signs properly? I still rocked him at 530 but the other wakings involved no rocking. I should say that I definitely don't think our days of rocking are over completely - if he becomes hysterical like the other night I will definitely rock him.

It is having a negative impact on naps. I've been trying to nurse him down 3 times this morning and I know if I rocked him he would have fallen asleep so I'm kind of torn... He's now been up for 3.5 hours since he first woke and is very tired. The slightest thing is upsetting him and he becomes a lot more clumsy when he is tired. It looks like he is finally falling asleep now. Ok... Spoke too soon... Off to 'play it out'...


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## stephie_corin

I think I've entered nap hell! Ha! I never understood people being unable to get baby to nap until I removed my (not so) secret weapon. 4.5 hours after waking up he is finally asleep. :happydance:

I hope we can squeeze a cat nap in this afternoon - bedtime is so much better when he takes a late nap and isn't over tired.


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## kitabird

Just wanted to say thanks for the support girls. You've been welcoming and helpful which I really need right now! Sorry I don't have any pearls of wisdom to offer back :blush: 
Last night went really well, LO did stay awake 6 hours til bedtime and then settled much quicker during the night than he has been recently. Phew! 
Good luck with today's naps everyone :)


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## AmyS

I hope everyone is having a lovely weekend! 

Chloe slept in her crib for the one nap we were home for today! Yippee! I hope tomorrow goes just as well.


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## lysh

Hi ladies...I have no idea if anyone remembers me...it has been a LONG time since I have posted or been active on the boards. I started working full time, lack of sleep, still battling and holding my girl for naps on the weekends while maintaining the home just made me exhausted. Needless to say I barely had time to post/read anything! My daughter still fights naps, but evenings are MUCH better. She will typically sleep through now from 8 or 8:30 to about 5:30. She has been waking up lately, but cries for 2 minutes and goes back to sleep. Like I said, naps are still an issue. Now that I am home for the summer I thought I could work on them, but we have been so busy that it is hard to be consistent or find a big chunk of time where I can be consistent. I need to try before going back to work though...naps were a disaster during the school year. So for anyone who does remember me, that is what is new in our sleeping world!!!!


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## seaweed eater

This time I'm the one with the fever...so of course Munchkin chose last night to nurse 4 times and wake up with a dirty diaper at 5 AM :sleep: I probably should have let him cry a couple of the times instead of nursing, but I just didn't have the energy.

DH thinks it's because he took two naps yesterday, that he was undertired and should start taking 1 nap on weekends too. Interesting idea.

Will respond to you all later...please keep your fingers crossed for us that Munchkin doesn't get whatever I have!


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## stephie_corin

I'm so sorry you are unwell! Let me guess, Munchkin hasn't had a morning dirty diaper for weeks ... Keeping my fingers crossed that he doesn't catch anything. Hopefully because you caught it first you can give him some immunity through breastfeeding x


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## polaris

SE - so sorry to hear that you are not well. :hugs: Sods law that Munchkin woke up frequently when you didn't have the energy to deal with it. Fingers crossed he doesn't get the bug.

Stephie - how are naps going today? How is Cully, does he still have a temperature?

Kitabird - glad that you had a better night. Stick around here and you will soon be a sleep "expert" like the rest of us (tongue in cheek!) and able to offer sleep advice to anyone. 

Amy - yay! Go Chloe napping in the crib! That's brilliant progress!

Lysh - welcome back to B&B. It sounds like you have got nights sorted anyway so I'm sure naps will fall into place if you can just get a decent run at it, as you say. What age is your daughter? Is she on one nap or two? 

AFM, Clara is still really not very well at all. Her temperature is still up and down and she's just generally miserable. However, despite being still unwell, she has actually been sleeping a bit better for the last couple of nights. She is actually doing 2-3 hour stretches which is a huge improvement on our nights recently! Fingers crossed we are starting to come out of the current bad sleep patch.


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## stephie_corin

Thanks Polaris - his temperature was 39.9 about 2 hours ago - he's just settling now. It's his first fever and it's so scary when their little bodies are burning up! We've been very lucky and I know this is just a minor virus but I feel so bad for him. 

I guess I'm having just a small taste of how stressful it's been for you with poor Clara being sick, and some of the others who have had sick babies. I'm glad Clara is sleeping better! That is wonderful news! Hopefully she is on the mend and sleep will only get better from here :)

SE I hope you are feeling better.

I hope everyone else had a lovely weekend x


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## seaweed eater

Wow, Stephie, 39.9 is quite a fever. I'm glad he's settling and hope it gets much better soon :hugs:

Polaris, sorry Clara's still unwell, but it seems promising that you're having better sleep. Hope that continues and she's back to her usual self really soon :hugs:

Darn viruses! Leave all of us alone!


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## lysh

Polaris- She is still two naps...tried to steer her to one nap a day, but she is not ready. She is taking shorter morning naps (typically) so we are almost there. Each day seems to vary a bit with her...always did, she was never easy to schedule (did not help that when working she has multiple caregivers) but it is what it is. I have a week coming up where I am not making plans in hope of getting her into a better nap cycle- one in which I do not have to hold her for half of it!!!! She is a year old btw!


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## stephie_corin

Lysh, I will definitely be holding my son for naps at 1 year, don't feel too bad :) good luck with getting her nap/naps sorted.

We are back to lots of rocking here. I'm just running with it until he feels better. Hope all is well with you all!


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## AmyS

SE - Hope you're feeling better! I agree with Stephie that he's probably getting all of your good immunities through breastfeeding!

Polaris - Glad Clara is sleeping better, but I hope she gets better soon! 

Stephie - How's cully doing now? Is his temp back down? That is scary - I absolutely freaked the first time Chloe got sick - but I was only 2 weeks into being a mom!

lysh - Noelle was just on here a few weeks ago talking about the 2-1 nap transition - it sounds like a tough one if they aren't ready. I have been holding my daughter for all naps too since birth, but she's having such a hard time at daycare that I had to stop doing that this weekend!
__________________

We had a pretty good weekend - she learned how to spit (yippee), how to say "quack, quack", and finally how to clap! Her sleep Saturday night was awful, but I think it was teething. Sunday morning, she couldn't suck on a bottle because they hurt so bad. 

Last night was back to normal sleep - only up once for a bottle. Except that I tried to put her down at 7pm, and she drank her bottle, was almost asleep, then sat straight up, said "quack, quack" while clapping her hands and then she spit. I guess she thought it was a good time to practice!! I tried again 1/2 an hour later, and she went down easily then.

Naps!!! I put her down for all naps that we were home for - only 1 was in the car. Yesterday, she did an hour in the morning, only 20 minutes for the 2nd nap (but I think her little legs were cold), and the third nap was an hour, but she was still tired, so I fed her again, and she went back down for another 45 minutes. So I gave daycare my "Chloe-crib-transfer-tips" this morning, because I think the problem they are having is that she wakes up when they put her down. 99% of the time, I can put her down, and she will wake up slightly and then resettle quickly.


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## lysh

Amys- That is the problem...when I go back to work it will be harder for my husband, MIL, and SIL to get her to nap. She nurses to sleep with me still and I have not had the heart/energy to stop that. Plus, they can't hold her like I do! The minute I put her in her crib for naps she screams. At night we were consistent so she goes in her crib without a problem 99% of the time...naps are harder!


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## AmyS

lysh said:


> Amys- That is the problem...when I go back to work it will be harder for my husband, MIL, and SIL to get her to nap. She nurses to sleep with me still and I have not had the heart/energy to stop that. Plus, they can't hold her like I do! The minute I put her in her crib for naps she screams. At night we were consistent so she goes in her crib without a problem 99% of the time...naps are harder!

I still feed to sleep for naps and night too! I am not going to stop that because she really isn't eating solids very well right now, and I can get her to drink the most when she's tired. 

I don't know if this will help, but this is my trick for keeping Chloe sleeping when I put her down. She always wakes up when I try to get my arm out from under her head, and she starts rolling over to her tummy. If I let her do that, she will usually wake up all the way and start screaming at me. So when she starts rolling, I put one hand on her front and one on her back, and I hold her on her side for about 30 seconds. She immediately settles back down and falls to sleep. Then, if she rolls over later, it doesn't usually wake her up. 

Obviously, nothing is fool-proof! And she will probably decide that doesn't work for her anymore when I try it tonight! :haha:


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## lysh

AmyS said:


> lysh said:
> 
> 
> Amys- That is the problem...when I go back to work it will be harder for my husband, MIL, and SIL to get her to nap. She nurses to sleep with me still and I have not had the heart/energy to stop that. Plus, they can't hold her like I do! The minute I put her in her crib for naps she screams. At night we were consistent so she goes in her crib without a problem 99% of the time...naps are harder!
> 
> I still feed to sleep for naps and night too! I am not going to stop that because she really isn't eating solids very well right now, and I can get her to drink the most when she's tired.
> 
> I don't know if this will help, but this is my trick for keeping Chloe sleeping when I put her down. She always wakes up when I try to get my arm out from under her head, and she starts rolling over to her tummy. If I let her do that, she will usually wake up all the way and start screaming at me. So when she starts rolling, I put one hand on her front and one on her back, and I hold her on her side for about 30 seconds. She immediately settles back down and falls to sleep. Then, if she rolls over later, it doesn't usually wake her up.
> 
> Obviously, nothing is fool-proof! And she will probably decide that doesn't work for her anymore when I try it tonight! :haha:Click to expand...

lol.....Yeah, well I still have yet to find the magic touch with my girl. I will do the arm test to make sure she is fully asleep. The minute I bend an inch over the crib she tenses and starts screaming. lol She has me at a loss!!!! If I leave her in the crib for a few, she gets so upset she wakes herself up and does not nap. :shrug:


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## seaweed eater

Lysh, welcome back! :wave: It's great that things are going better for you at night. I don't know how you are transferring her, but I believe that with a baby this age it's important for her to go down awake or at least wake up for a second as you put her down. I think Amy gives great advice. It's good that she is able to go down well at night -- I'm sure if you are equally consistent during the day she'll learn fast.

Amy, sounds like great progress for you and your baby duck! :lol: Lucky her that she's so cute when she's resisting sleep, huh? I'm optimistic that things will go better for her at daycare this week!

Polaris, how has today been? Hope C is doing better and you all have a good night :hugs:

Stephie, thinking of you and your boy, hope he is feeling much better soon. :hugs: I think rocking him for now is perfectly appropriate.

AFM, I haven't had a fever since last night :thumbup: so in a couple days if Munchkin's not sick we can breathe a sigh of relief!

We did have a strange night though...late but easy bedtime, resettled himself with no intervention twice, but also a 1:30 MOTN party (in which I decided to nurse twice contrary to my own rules, which might have been a terrible idea). And he woke up at 5 and went back to sleep until 6:30, which is very late for him. I know it's probably crazy, but I sort of think DH might be right about the one nap...his second nap went until 2:30 and we were ready for bedtime at 7 but there was not even a hint of a sleepy cue until 7:45. Could also be developmental, though. No idea!


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## kitabird

Hi, hope everyone is feeling better.
Amy, the quack quacking sounds really cute, if a bit unhelpful! 
SE, sounds like you had a pretty good night. Munchkin seems young to just have one nap :shrug: so maybe it's just a phase and he'll go back up to 2 again. I say go with whatever works, anything for a bit of sleep! 
Felix had a good night. I heard him quite a lot, but rather than crying he was just chattering and moving around mostly. Cried for a feed at 5 then settled again until 7 :) He has only been having 2 naps the past few days. The first in the morning for 20-30 mins and then one around lunchtime for about an hour. Don't know how long this will last, he likes to keep me guessing!


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## seaweed eater

Thanks Kita, I know he's very young to drop to one nap. The thing is that during the week he's at daycare and tends to take just one nap there. I think if he were home he'd definitely still be on two, but I wonder whether he has trouble adjusting his schedule from day to day. He's only been napping in his new daycare classroom for a few weeks, I think, so maybe he'll add back a second nap there as he keeps getting used to it? Impossible to know!

You're right that it wasn't a bad night in an absolute sense by any means, but worse than I've come to expect, and I'm just not really sure why he had such trouble settling and therefore what would have been best to do about it...if something was truly bothering him then I would definitely have wanted to pick him up, but I don't want to "rescue" him just because it's challenging for him to go back to sleep, and it was quite unusual for him to be so awake. It's the mystery that's more bothersome than anything! :shrug: Probably developmental. In general, developmental sleep disruption tends to be a sort of grey area between something being "wrong" and the kind of frustration you can just help them cope with...not sure how to deal with it!

Glad you guys had a good night :thumbup: the nap schedule sounds good! How has his mood been, does he seem tired?


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## polaris

SE - could well be developmental. Anyway that's what I tend to put everything down to when I've nothing else to blame. I think he's quite young to drop to one nap but I guess you could always try it and see if it works? The other possibility I can think of is the exact opposite - that maybe he is a little bit cumulatively overtired from only having one nap on daycare days? I still can't figure out whether Clara is overtired or undertired most of the time but sometimes it seems like she wants longer wake-times when she's overtired compared to when she's well-rested! Another of the many mysteries of baby sleep! 

Amy, the quacking, clapping, and spitting at bedtime sounds so cute! Well done on getting her to take naps in the crib - hope it translates to better daycare naps too!

Lysh - I feed Clara to sleep (or very nearly) for all naps and bedtimes too. No-one else ever puts her down for naps at all. I am pretending that this is going to resolve itself before I go back to work (luckily not until after xmas when she will be almost 17 months). When do you have to go back to work?

Any sign of Gaiagirl? Haven't seen you on here in what feels like ages, just wondering how you are getting on?

Clara is much better today although still not 100%. Also she is taking some steps! Only about 3 or 4 little steps at a time so far. So exciting!!


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## seaweed eater

Polaris, so glad to hear Clara is on the mend, and how exciting about the steps!! You will have a little walker in no time! I hope sleep was even better last night. :hugs:

You may well be right about Munchkin being overtired. He only napped half an hour today and was miserably tired in the evening. After going to sleep he woke up at the 25 minute mark and was difficult to console. I let him cry for a while, calmed him in arms twice, and then finally nursed him.

I think I am going to try changing my approach to ST. Usually I'm of the opinion that you "do or do not, there is no try" but I'm thinking about implementing a "try really really hard" approach. :winkwink: Amy, I think this is more similar to what you've done with Chloe?

My plan is to give him a really good chance to SS but intervene before the point when it seems like he might throw up. Try PUPD first, but nurse if that doesn't seem to work. Always put down awake. And monitor myself to avoid panicking or making any decision out of desperation, and give it a few minutes even if he's screaming. Really, the throwing up scenario just doesn't work on any level -- obviously it's horrible for him, I hate seeing him fall asleep like that, and I don't think he really practices SS that way either.

I just want to try it for a few days and see what happens. It might very well be a disaster. But if it works well, I'll be really happy. And if it is a disaster, I guess at least I'll feel better about the super consistent style of ST.

I'd like to do this for all NWs but I'm having my monthly supply dip so I'm afraid he might really be hungry tonight...so I'll probably be a little quicker to nurse for now, at least a couple hours or more after the previous feed, though I'll still wait a few minutes first. And once my supply's back I'll try it for all NWs.

What do you guys think?


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## stephie_corin

Amy, Chloe quacking is hilarious! What a clever girl, I can't believe you taught her to quack!!! And clapping too ! So cute :) well done with naps, too! Thanks for the wonderful transfer advice too! I really really like your technique. Have daycare had any better luck?

Lysh, it's nice you have family to help care for your LO. I know the feeling that no one can quite do it like you. I hope you find a solution.

SE, I'm sorry about your MOTN party. I think Munchkin has shown you how clever he is and my first thought was he might quickly discover a hole in the rules ;) I like your new, more flexible approach though. Now our babies are older and more emotionally mature we should be even more sensitive to their needs. Your approach sounds great! I think I'm in the minority but I think one nap sounds like its suiting Munchkin really well! Although - like Polaris says, it might be overtiredness. 

Kita, I'm glad Felix had a good night! It seems to be a fairly common theme on this thread - bad sleepers who take cat naps :) I agree, thing will probably change again soon - these babies like to keep us on our toes.

Polaris, that is awesome news! Both regarding Clara feeling better and the WALKING!!! It must be bitter sweet though. I want Cully to start standing independently and walking but the day he does I will break down crying. How was Clara's night sleep? How are her naps these days? I meant to ask you how you've dealt with naps when she's sick... Do you stick to the normal routine?

Cully's fever finally broke last night (or I think it did). He's had no meds since 7pm last night and it's now 930am and no fever in sight. He's tired but hopefully on the mend.

We are back to rocking at every nap and night waking. It's strange how a few bad days can derail progress completely. 

We are still also GWTF and I'm trying to put him down when he seems tired rather than going by the clock. He's having lots of trouble falling asleep so I wonder if he is overtired (hence the rocking even for naps). 

I'll give him a few days to get back to normal and hopefully we can work on the rocking again :)


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## polaris

Good morning everyone.

We had a really awful night again last night, I'm not really sure why. She was not too bad until about midnight, just a couple of wakings and back to sleep after a quick feed. But from then on she was very unsettled, she was trying to go back to sleep but just kept waking up and seemed to be crying in pain. She did settle back to sleep for about 1.5 hours after having pain relief but she woke again at 4 a.m. and I ended up having to get her up for a bit because she was just inconsolable. She did go back to sleep eventually (after more pain relief) but still kept waking up every 20 minutes or so for the rest of the night. I don't really know what was going on with her. She seems OK this morning. She still has a sniffly nose but doesn't seem unwell. Maybe it is her teeth? I'm not sure if I can see one of her top teeth under the gums. Maybe it's not that at all since the pain relief didn't really seem to have a huge impact.

Hope everyone else had better nights!!

SE - I think it sounds good to try a more flexible approach. I do think sometimes they just need a bit of extra help for whatever reason, even if they can self-settle. Thomas always self-settled and would have always gone into the cot awake because he didn't fall asleep feeding or in my arms. Also I did have "rules" with him like not getting him back out of the cot after he went in at bedtime and not more than one night feed. But I was quite flexible with the rules - if he really wasn't able to settle I figured there was something wrong so I would pick him up and try to settle him a bit and then put him back in the cot awake and that was often all he needed. Thomas quite often cried for five minutes before going to sleep (especially for naps, not usually at bedtime) but if he cried for much more than that or if it was a different sort of cry then I knew that was out of the norm for him so I would be more flexible then. I really did try very hard to stick to my rule about only one night feed but sometimes I ended up feeding him more often if he was in an unsettled phase. I think this sounds very similar to what you are suggesting for Munchkin and it worked well for us so fingers crossed it will work for you too.

Stephie, not surprising that you have been back to rocking when he's been so unwell. I think it's best to do whatever you can to help them to get to sleep when they are not well, because it's so hard for them to settle and yet they really need their sleep. To answer your question about naps, I have been going with the flow while Clara has been unwell. She has been sleeping late most mornings, often until 7.30 or even 8.30. Her wake-times have generally been at the shorter end of her normal range and her naps have mostly been short too, mainly 45 minute naps. Sometimes I have been extending her naps by nursing her back down if she wakes after 30 minutes and then she will often take a longer nap. She seems more tired than usual and I think her overall wake time during the day is less, but then she is awake more than usual during the night so it probably balances out! Glad to hear that Cully is a bit better.


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## lysh

seaweed eater- Yeah, I know she really should start going down somewhat awake. Honestly, it took FOREVER just to get her to sleep through the night (and STTN was 8:30-4:30 for a while. We finally got 8:30-5 or 5:30. Naps were always a disaster, so I am not counting those- but frankly, DH and I were so thrilled to finally get sleep that I was afraid to change anything!!!!! It is so easy to do our routine, nurse her, and down she goes without a struggle! However, that has been changing the last few nights. Baby girl is hyper and does not want to settle....it might be time to start that. From what I am reading, it seems your daycare is doing only 1 nap? I hear of that a lot and babies really not being ready for that.

Kita- When it comes to naps, my baby keeps me guessing too!!!! 

Polaris- I go back to work in 4 weeks. :( I originally had to go back when she was 4 1/2months...it was hard- she was colicky and did not get out of it until 4 months, so I never had time to really work on a schedule before going back to work. We had family watch her, which was comforting, but at the same time she had 4 different caregivers. She gave them all a run for their money with naps and I just do not want another year of it. I am making sure that we have a good week coming up where there is nothing going on around 'nap time' so we can work on better routines. 

Thank you Stephie- Yes, it is frustrating when something derails progress. At one point, dd would sleep for an hour and a half nap in her crib (with some crying but it was better than what she use to do). I would be thrilled...an hour and a half to clean on the weekends!!!! Then it went down hill and stayed there. However, when sick, we have to do what we have to do to make sure they get the sleep they need. Evenings usually go back to normal quickly because, again, that stays consistent day in and day out. I just think in general, for most, naps are harder.

Before baby girl starts typing and deleting this post, sending reply!


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## AmyS

kitabird - That sounds like a great night! And you are so right about the babies keeping us all guessing! Just when we get used to something...

SE - I understand your frustration about the developmental sleep issues. It really is hard to know how to deal with. I like your new ST term, "try really really hard"! It does sound very similar to what I do with Chloe at night. I do put her down asleep though, but she always wakes up a little when she hits the mattress. I usually give her 15 minutes to SS on her own - most of the time, I'll get up to go to her and she'll be back to sleep by the time I'm out of the bathroom. 

Polaris - Yay Clara on taking steps!!!! That is amazing!!! So glad she's feeling better too! Do you think your bad night was developmental since she's starting to take steps? Like SE said, it's very frustrating, because there isn't much you can do to help them deal with those kind of sleep disruptions.

Stephie - What a relief that the fever is gone! I wouldn't worry about going back to rocking - he's already shown you that he can do it without. I bet once he's back to normal after a few days, you can try again. 

Lysh - I hope you can get naps sorted out before you go back to work! 
___________________

Apparently daycare did not take my advice yesterday about how to put her down for a nap! She didn't take a nap at all in the morning, and had one 35 minute nap in the afternoon. UGH!!!! I guess she was happy all afternoon, but she does need her naps!

I ended up putting her to bed at 6:30, and she woke up at 10:15. I'm pretty sure she was chilly, so I put her sleep sack on her, she drank a couple of ounces, and then she slept very soundly until 6am. 

And just because I don't mean to sound all braggy about the "quack" thing, it sounds like "cack cack". We only decided it was "quack quack" because of the toy she is constantly playing with.


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## stephie_corin

Amy you should brag! It's pretty awesome :) The fact she is mimicking sounds is really clever! I think we declare this thread (as well as a sleep thread) a guilt-free brag zone! All these clever developments totally impact sleep anyway so it's not off topic :) It sounds like Chloe had an amazing night but poor thing - she must have been so tired! Daycare had better get their act together for you! I'm sure they are trying hard but they need to "try really really hard"!

Lysh, routines are hard but when you have so many different care givers and her needs change so much in the first year - it must have been tough! Is it her birthday today?! Happy birthday to your girl! Did you guys have a party?

Polaris, Clara must have been such a shock to the system after Thomas!! They are so different! Your night sounds terrible. I hope you guys are ok. Thanks for letting me know what you guys do when Clara is sick. It must be so difficult when she's only taking short naps - the poor baby must be exhausted! It's definitely your turn for a good week. I know the tables will turn soon and you will both get some rest.


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## seaweed eater

Stephie, what a relief to hear C's fever seems to have gone. I hope both of you can get some more rest now. :hugs: You're right that a few bad days can derail progress, but I also believe it usually is quick and takes little effort to get back to where you were. I'm sure you will be back on track very soon.

Polaris, so sorry about your awful night. :hugs: :hugs: I bet it still has to do with the illness, even if she seems better. Illness is really so disruptive. Maybe that plus the excitement of walking. Either way I hope it's just a random bad night and things are back to normal soon. Stephie is right, you are really due a good week now!

Lysh, frankly I think it's impressive that your LO can STTN after going down asleep! Putting down awake is a must for us because LO just won't stay asleep otherwise. I wonder why you are having bedtime struggles now...is she working on any new milestones?
Our daycare does naps on demand, so I don't think they are pushing one nap. He just doesn't want to nap as much when he's there. :shrug: Napping has never been his favorite thing to do, and with the extra stimulation I think he just finds it impossible to wind down.

Amy, I'm sorry you guys are still having nap struggles as well. I totally feel your pain! I'm glad your night was good. I know this is the sleep problem thread but I'm always really impressed with how well Chloe copes with things! I don't say that to invalidate your struggles at all, because I know things haven't fallen into place on their own for you, but she always seems to adapt really well. Don't worry about bragging about the quack thing, it sounds adorable!!! Just wait until she builds her repertoire of animal sounds. Soooo cute. :cloud9:

Kita, how are you? Hope you guys are doing well!

Thanks everyone for your feedback. Stephie, I'm afraid of precisely what you said -- Munchkin has proved himself to be pretty good at figuring out how to work the rules in his favor! So he might really need consistency. We'll see. :shrug:

He actually did quite well last night after the first difficult waking. He woke up about 4 times and SS without any intervention, then finally nursed for the first time at 4:45 and slept until 6. Not sure what all the wakings were about -- maybe overtiredness? -- but hopefully since he was able to SS he'll start sleeping through.

The bad news is that my fever is back :( so I'm worried again about him catching it, and I myself barely slept at all last night. Even after taking ibuprofen I couldn't get comfortable. No wonder our poor babies sleep so little and get so frustrated when they're unwell. :nope:


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## polaris

Clara took loads more steps this evening! She actually walked half-way across the room in teeny tiny baby steps! So exciting - she is absolutely thrilled with herself! She is definitely getting another tooth - I can definitely see and feel it underneath the gum - and I think she is quite uncomfortable with it. Having said that, I decided not to give pain relief at bedtime but to just wait and see how she got on and she's been asleep over an hour without a peep, so fingers crossed for a better night tonight.

SE - so sorry to hear that your fever is back. :hugs: Look after yourself and get well soon.

Amy - that sucks that daycare naps were no better. I agree with SE, it's amazing that she manages to cope so well after just a 35 minute nap, the poor thing must have been exhausted! She's sleeping so well at night time though - yay!!

Lysh - :hugs: - I honestly think you should just enjoy your four weeks at home with your LO and try not to worry too much about going back to work. She's older now so she may be more adaptable and better able to learn to fall asleep different ways in different contexts. Having said that, it would definitely be worth getting her into a good daytime routine before you go back so that whoever is minding her can just stick to that routine if possible.

Stephie - LOL, Clara and Thomas are like polar opposites in every way! I thought I had this parenting lark sussed. Nothing that worked for Thomas works for Clara and vice versa. They look very alike but there the resemblance ends!


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## seaweed eater

Wow, go Clara! That's amazing!! :cloud9: I hope better sleep is around the corner, too...I remember someone said earlier that learning to walk can actually improve sleep because they get so tired!


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## NotNic

Stephie - don't worry about returning to rocking. That's the great thing about GWTF. You can continually adapt your approach to how your lo is. Also GWTF doesn't have to mean they run rings around you (in theory :haha:). We do it a bit more like how Polaris was with Thomas. On a regular night he has a good bedtime routine, is in bed for 8pm (put down awake) and if he wakes after being asleep for an hour he doesn't come out of the cot unless there is a nappy or sickness issue. However we'll do the complete opposite on a non-regular night. :) 

Sorry to hear about everyone struggling with daycare naps. I'm very grateful that our nursery was happy to be flexible too and watch for tiredness clues. In the beginning we found his naps were shorter and at strange times. They then increased to three short naps and within 6-8 wks they mimicked the home naps in lengths (though his later nap is the longer of the two). If you think about it, it must be scary for babies to nap in a strange environment. Until they can relax and wake up knowing where they are, they're likely to fight naps. Ride it out but do push daycare. You do pay for their care, so you have a right to insist on 2 naps if your baby needs it.

Polaris - Clara is one very clever girl. Yay for steps!!

AFU - we've recently had a good run but had a 90min motn party. So not like him. Teething is terrible again though. Incisors appear to be next. We're having a run of a tooth a week. Exhausting!!!


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## lysh

Stephie- No, her birthday was July 12th! Thank you for the Happy Birthday though! :flower: Yes, having so many caregivers could be challenging, but with her personality she needed the one on one care that family could give her. She is much more flexible and social now, so either during this year or next year we are going to look into a more structured daycare setting. 

Seaweed- Yes, it seems that LO is working on new milestones weekly now! She is also teething, so that does not help. Getting her to STTN was challenging, but we finally got there. She will still sometimes have an early evening wake-up (before midnight) or a wake-up around 3:30, but much better. I started letting her fuss for up to 10 minutes to see if she would wind down and go to sleep....more often than not she does. The only time I go straight in now is if her crying is her scared cry or really upset cry. She is an early bird too, but I will take that then waking up every hour and a half (which we did for many, many months!) any day! Hope you feel better!

Polaris- Thank you! I am trying not to think about the fact that I have to go back to work. I do try to enjoy every day with her and I have the minute school ended (I am a teacher). It is going to be so incredibly hard leaving her, but it is what it is. Most of her day is structured except those darn naps!!! lol She has her meals/snacks at the same time of day and we have our morning/evening routine down. However...she nurses on demand (still quite often) and naps are off...so hopefully I can get the naps on a semi-schedule at least and if I can't then I am letting it go!

There is one thing I have learned this past year and that is that babies are not one size fits all. I read all the 'expert' books. I do feel they are helpful and can have great advice, but I was so worried about fitting my daughter into molds that she was not going to fit in. I am a routine oriented person and I love schedules.....my daughter had different ideas. I would like her to be on a nap schedule, but in the end...she is healthy, happy, and thriving. So hopefully we will have nap success but if not, I need to learn to let it go and let it be (which is hard for me!).


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## gaiagirl

Hey ladies...I haven't disappeared but I accidentally clicked unsubscribe on this thread and have been too lazy to go searching then comment to resubscribe! 

I will catch up soon...

Was gonna come on and say things have been ok but this evening was so brutal I'm feeling totally dejected.

Ok off to read a few pages back (no way can I completely catch up).


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## VikkiD

Hello ladies I may have to rejoin this thread since Saturday Lo's sleep as gone crap he had his mmr two weeks ago maybe it's related to this. Now he won't settle in his cot I have to rub his back he's up several times a night. Started to wake earlier and is grumpy hoping it is the mmr and he will return to himself soon.


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## kitabird

SE - Sorry you're not feeling well. How is the sleep training going? I think you're right about not being too strict with it, if he gets so distressed that he throws up, that's not going to improve anything. With Felix I assume that he isn't hungry and nurse as a last resort (except if it's approaching 5am or later in which case it's time for his first feed of the day). I stroke his tummy, cuddle him, rock him and give him plenty of chances to self settle. Usually something works! Last night was a complete disaster though, nothing worked and I ended up leaving him to CIO. I was so exhausted and about to lose my cool, so it's all I could do. 

Polaris - amazing news on the walking. Hope you had a better night last night. I always find it easier to cope when I know what is causing the wakings, so if it is teething then at least you know how to handle it.

Stephie - I'm sure you'll be able to work on the rocking again soon, it's not the end of the world. I have to take Felix out in the pushchair for his naps (unless he is due a feed, in which case he will nurse to sleep). I've decided to work on his night time sleep for now and tackle the naps later.

The 2 nap schedule seemed to be going well, but yesterday I walked into a shop about 15/20 mins into his lunchtime nap and of course his eyes shot straight open and he wouldn't resettle :dohh: He ended up having a third nap at 4ish for 20 mins. Don't know if that had any impact on his bad night. He was just rolling around in his cot and trying to crawl. He's so frustrated and there's nothing I can do to soothe him. Wish he would hurry up and crawl!


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## stephie_corin

SE - I'm so sorry your fever is back :( please take it easy. How is Munchkin's crawling and walking coming along? It's good news he hasn't come down with your sickness yet, so stay positive!

Polaris - that is sensational work by Clara! She's gone from standing to walking so quickly! You must be really proud. How did she sleep last night? Was there a tooth this morning?

NotNic - sorry about the middle of the night party! A tooth a week - Wow! Poor Finlay! His mouth must be so sore! I think we are evolving towards a regular bedtime, and disregarding wake times much more than we used to. I'm still keeping a rough track for my own interest/neurosis... Lol.

Lysh - sorry, your ticker said she was one year so I assumed it was her birthday - it must have stopped ticking :) you know, I could have written your last paragraph. I am such a routine oriented scheduler and it's really hard to let go and not try to manipulate their sleep (even subtly!) in accordance with books you read. 

Gaia - I'm sorry you had a bad night. That's terrible news - but good news overall :) how are naps going for you guys?

VikkiD - sorry things aren't going well. Fingers crossed they improve soon!

Kita - your night sounds rough. I'm so sorry. It's definitely better to walk away sometimes and calming down when you feel frustrated. SE had lots of sleep issues when Munchkin was taking a late afternoon car nap. Some babies seem very sensitive to being under tired. Good luck with tonight. I hope it's better for you.

Amy - I hope little duck slept well for you!

Ok, I know we are GWTF but I can't help but analyse Cully's sleep! Before he got sick and now he is feeling better I noticed he was pushing out his first wake time, taking a long snooze, then taking a very short late afternoon nap. I think this may be the beginning of his nap transition (obviously very early days).

So we are going to keep letting him stay up as long as he wants in the morning with the hope that his first nap will slowly get later and later. I finish work at 12 so in an ideal world I will pick him up and bring him home for his snooze. But if he can't make it to 12/1230 for his first sleep, DH will pick him up around 11ish and put him down for his sleep and stay with him until I get home. What do you guys think? I know 2.5 months is an aeon away in baby tome but I know it will go so quickly!


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## AmyS

SE - Are you feeling better today? It really is terrible to get sick - you need the sleep to get better, and sometimes we don't get enough! Munchkin did awesome on SS 4 times!! That's amazing!

Polaris - How did your night go? Is she trying to practice her walking during the night too? I've heard that can happen. 

NotNic - Glad you've been having a good stretch! I'm sure your MOTN party was just thrown in to keep you on your toes! Why does there seem to be no break from the teething monster?

Lysh - I agree that not all babies fit the experts' books - mine definitely doesn't! It's easy to be stressed out about naps not being "right", but I think I will need to learn to let it go also. It won't be long before nap needs will change again anyway, right? 

Gaia - Glad to see you back for an update!! I've been wanting to hear how your montessori bed is still going. Sorry for the bad night, but hopefully you are back to your new normal quickly!

Vikki - Isn't there another sleep regression right after they turn 1 due to molars coming in? I thought I read that somewhere, but I could be wrong. 

Kitabird - I've had to do that too - throw in a 3rd catnap every now and then. It doesn't seem to throw the night off too much - I bet he's just still unsettled because of the crawling thing. Chloe did that too, but I can't remember for how long now. I don't think it was too long.

Stephie - So Cully will be at daycare in the morning? With all of that stimulation, he might not nap until you get him home. That would kind of be ideal, since he will be at the right age for 1 nap by then. I like your idea of letting him push his first wake time out so that he gradually gets there on his own!! I think that'll be easier on him! 
________________

Daycare naps are still awful!!!! Yesterday, she had a 10 minute morning nap, then a 30 minute afternoon nap. So she was in bed by 6:30pm again. 

She did wake up crying at one point, so I was trying to find my socks and then I was going to feed her since she hardly ate yesterday. I was watching her on the monitor, and she turned around, saw the monitor camera on the wall, started crawling over to it, then crashed! She fell back to sleep instantly, haha. She was up by 5:15, but I'm not surprised since she went to bed about an hour earlier than usual.

I am so happy that my mom is watching her today! She will finally get some good naps in!!


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## gaiagirl

Ok, I'm bad, I haven't really caught up at all. Ill hopefully get up to date by just checking in more! Haha

Floor bed was definitely a huge help. Most of the time I can nurse him in bed and then leave. We have had some really great evenings this way. I still bring him to bed either when I go or the next wakeup after that. I COULD nurse him in his room and then go back to mine but I'm too lazy and tired. Lol

We went away for a weekend and had the hotel put the bed on the floor (did I write about this?!) it was awesome. One evening he fell asleep in like 10min and STAYED asleep until I woke him 4 hours later to feed him because my boob was so sore! Haha

So all in all it has been a good month. But the past week has been getting tricky again. He's chewing and drooling and I'm worried we might get the first molars. It's also BOILING hot upstairs like 28/29 degrees at night time in his room. Last night he was restless and I started bedtime at 7:30...HE DIDN'T SLEEP UNTIL 10! Ugh. Tested my patience for sure.

Naps are still tricky in that if I want to leave him it often takes awhile to get him unlatched. Still on 2. Around 9:30 and 2. I usually just watch TV and sit on the couch with him on the nursing pillow.

Definitely worried about naps in Nov when I start work 2 days/week...but not sure what to do about that.


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## lysh

Vikki- Hopefully your LO will get back on track....What have you done in the past to get him to sleep? My LO had some difficulty after her MMR, plus she is teething....she is getting back on track other than having difficulty settling in at night.

kitabird- When my LO was learning how to crawl she had some major regressions with sleep (not that she was that great to start with) but it drove us nuts for a while.

Stephie- I noticed the ticker stopped, I will have to find another one! :) If I was not a working mom maybe things would have been different with scheduling, but naps are just plain difficult, especially if a baby is inconsistent at night. Obviously the time my girl would want to nap would depend upon when she decided to wake up in the morning. Finally at 1 year she is starting to get on a predictable wake-up schedule....it took a year! And I am sure that will change again soon! lol

Amy- Yes, once we think we got the start of a schedule down pat, then things change anyways!!! Now I am waiting for dd to decide she is fine with one nap. Hope she napped better with your mom!!! 

Gaia- I have a hard time keeping up too.....when I use to be more active in the thread it was overwhelming, especially because when working I could not check during the day. Just so you know, I was worried when I had to go back to work full time about naps as my daughter nursed to sleep and slept in my arms. She was not easy with naps, but everyone who watched her managed. Unfortunately the only way DH could get her to nap was having her cry for a bit. That never stopped. My SIL would sing and rock her to sleep (then of course her kids would wake her up, but that is another story). My MIL would walk her in the stroller if it was nice out, try to sing and rock her, or sometimes she had to cry for a few. Is your LO going to a daycare?


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## gaiagirl

In Nov/Dec it will be just my mom one day and DH another. In Jan we may try to start daycare 2-3x a week. 

If he has to cry (while being held and soothed) then I guess that is inevitable, but if its hysterical then I would honestly prefer he just skips nap that day. He will almost ALWAYS nap for me in a carrier so I'm hoping my mom and DH can get him to that way...


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## seaweed eater

NotNic, I like your flexible routine version of GWTF! Thanks for the reassurance about daycare. This is only the 7th week in the new classroom so maybe there's time yet for things to adjust back to 2 naps. I'm sorry about your MOTN and all the teeth. At least it sounds like you're getting close to the finish line (? I can't even imagine!) and once they're all in you won't have to worry about it anymore! Hang in there :hugs:

Lysh, it sounds like you did great with your LO at night :thumbup: encouraging to hear that leaving her for up to 10 minutes worked well for you! Out of curiosity, how often does she still nurse (you told Polaris "often")? Mine is a frequent nurser too and I always wonder what the next few months are likely to look at for us, when all the other babies seem to be dropping to 2-3 milk feeds a day...

Vikki, sorry you're having a tough time. It does sound like the MMR can be pretty disruptive. I hope things pass on their own. If things were going well, I'm sure you'll be able to get back to that soon one way or the other.

Kita, the throwing up sounds (and is!) alarming but it's really the kind of temperament my LO has. He's done it a few times during WIO times too when he was overtired or uncomfortable and couldn't calm down. Of course the distress itself doesn't help anything, but he's also been very quick to respond to changes in my sleep rules so I don't think it's obvious what the best course of action is! He also doesn't like to be stroked or rocked and gets mad if I pick up/put down, so my options are limited to nursing him (which is the sleep association we're working on, obviously) and basically just leaving him. Or taking an actual breather outside of his bedroom, but that's just to calm down, not to go to sleep, obviously.

I'm sorry you had a rough night last night :hugs: how did he do with CIO? It sounds like he went to sleep on his own and things ended up fine. Don't be too hard on yourself! The 4PM catnap may have affected bedtime but it may just as easily not have, and I think it was exactly the right thing to do. I hope he does hurry up and crawl, or at least calms down about trying to practice it at bedtime.

Stephie, I think your approach to naps sounds really good :thumbup: and what you described at daycare should work great. I wonder whether, if he naps around 11, he'll take a second catnap in the afternoon or just have a long second WT/earlier bedtime. Impossible to say -- as you said, 2.5 months is a very long time in baby time!

Amy, I'm sorry you're still having a tough time with daycare naps! :hugs: Did she get some good naps in today finally?

Gaia, :wave: I'm glad the floor bed has been working well for you! It's so good to see that you are having great evenings when I know that was a source of stress for so long. :thumbup: I wouldn't worry about when you go back to work. It's a long time from now, and I don't think there's really much you can do to prepare for it. It will definitely be a transition for both of you, but you'll adjust as you go. Babies often seem to form different routines in different contexts so it may not be necessary to change the way you're doing things with him at all -- he may just learn a new system with his new caregivers.

Polaris, how are you guys doing today? :hugs:

AFU - thanks everyone for your wishes of health...I'm not better yet but spent a long time at the doctor's office today and it definitely doesn't seem to be anything serious! I'm just hoping it goes away on its own so that I don't have to go on antibiotics. I wasn't as feverish last night and slept much better, and that has helped.

Munchkin had another good night last night, SS twice before nursing at 4:30, up at 5:30. I read somewhere recently (babysleepsite?) that some babies continue that early morning feed for a long time -- and I think Polaris said the same thing about her son -- so I think this is the best I can expect for now. Other than sleeping through the earlier wakings instead of crying out. I know he's had a few random STTNs but I don't see it becoming a regular thing. I'd be happy to be wrong!

I spoke to daycare a bit about his nap schedule. They said they used to try putting him down earlier but rarely succeeded, and he seems to be in a good mood through the morning so now they've stopped trying. I think the arrival at daycare is stimulating to him so he doesn't nap right away, and then their daily routine is not built to support a nap around 10 or 11 AM -- they are usually doing activities and then playing outside. Also his cohort happens to be on the older side right now for this classroom (most of them are around 14 months, and he's the youngest by about 6 weeks) so most of them are old enough to be taking one nap. So in the morning everyone is playing and it's noisy and interesting, and then after outdoor playtime everyone else is ready for a nap, they turn the lights down, and he apparently falls asleep on his bottle and goes in his crib easily. Anyway...that's the picture, and I'm glad I asked because I think I have a better sense of how this works now.

They offered to try putting him down earlier if I'd like, but I said for now we can keep things as they are. I just don't see him getting two quality naps in this classroom, not because the teachers are unwilling, but just because of the way things are structured. If it seems like he is not doing well I plan to ask them to hold him for a 15-minute morning catnap and then just let him wake up. I don't want him to start skipping the afternoon nap, because I like that he can sleep when the room is quiet and dark -- I think he has the best chance of consistently starting to extend the nap that way.

Stephie, thanks for asking about his crawling and walking :D he had a big breakthrough yesterday with walking. He let go of me and took about 10 steps independently!!! I think he reads this thread and was inspired by Clara! He's so cautious, I'm sure it'll be a month before he tries again. He also loves to play this game where he pulls up on a low table in the playroom and then lets go, takes a step backward, and drops on his bottom. Over and over again. Seems to me like it must hurt, but he seems to enjoy it, and I'm glad he's practicing getting down from standing, which I know is important for sleep!


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## gaiagirl

Thanks SE I think you're right. Wow on the steps!!!!!! Amazing! I'm soooo unprepared for toddlerhood I think. F is a daredevil and I can see him trying the waking thing soon, which I am not encouraging haha.


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## VikkiD

Hope everyone had a good night Daniel woke at 2 and 5 and then up for the day at 7 and he had pooped through his nappy and all through his sleepsuit he does seem happier this morning so fingers crossed for a good day


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## stephie_corin

Amy, that's awful that's she's still not getting any sleep at daycare. Cully would be an absolute wreck on that little sleep. I'm glad your mum is looking after her. Is it just the transfer that's stopping her napping longer or the noise and stimulation? Do they have a quiet room for her to take naps? Yes - Cully will be in daycare for only half days which is very lucky for us. I think he would really struggle to sleep there so I'm really hoping the plan works!

Gaia, it sounds like things have been going so well! You didn't tell us about the holiday - that's awesome they were so good about putting the mattress on the floor! I'm sorry thing have been bad lately - those long bedtimes are so difficult. Hopefully when the weather changes things get better. I can't believe you think he's teething again... Wow! Cully still has two small teeth! 

Lysh, it's so true what you say about it being hard to schedule naps when wakeup times can vary so much! It's interesting her wake time became more consistent when she turned one!

SE, I have no idea about how long he will take the cat nap - yesterday he didn't even fall asleep until 5pm and slept for only ten minutes. So maybe it will be gone soon? Who knows, he'll probably be back to 3 naps next week :)

Munchkin is doing so well with his walking! You always thought he would be an early walker! I love that he's practising getting down from standing, that's really cute! The games they play to entertain themselves are bizarre and hilarious sometimes. 

I think your plan for naps is a good one. A cat nap will be perfect if you find him struggling on one nap. It does sound like he's adapted really well though. 

Vikki, that sounds like a better night! I'm glad for you. I'll definitely keep fingers crossed that he has a good day.

Polaris, how is Clara? Any sign of a tooth? I hope she's fully recovered now.

We had an ok night - he slept 1.5 hours at the beginning which he hasn't done for ages (we almost fitted in 2 episodes of Dexter) but he woke hourly crying. He's rubbing his gums on everything today... I wish his front teeth would just hurry up and cut through. It feels like they've caused him so much pain for months now. 

I hope everyone had a good night x


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## AmyS

Gaia - Sounds like things are mostly good! As for naps, I think you'll have a good transition period with your husband and mom for a couple of months - hopefully they can help F get more comfortable with naps from other people before you send him to daycare.

SE - Do you think he's ready for one nap? As long as he's getting one good stretch of sleep in, it shouldn't matter if it's one nap or two, right? I like your idea of them holding him for a quick catnap though, if they are willing to do it! My daycare will not! And WOW!!! on the walking! That's great!!

Vikki - Sounds like a good night - except for the poop! I always dread a night poop. 

Stephie - You had a 1.5 hour stretch, and you weren't sleeping!! Obviously, I'd probably be watching sexy Dexter too! The front top teeth must feel awful and take the longest! Chloe hurt so bad the other day that she couldn't even suck on a bottle. Poor babies! 
_________________

Chloe got in a nice 2.5 hour morning nap with my mom, and an hour in the afternoon! Too much sleep, but I suppose she needed it. Her night ended up being a bit restless then, and she was up at 5am. 

I'm not sure what the problem is with daycare. All I can get out of them is that she screams in the crib and wakes the other babies up. I was mad the other day because I felt like the daycare provider did not listen to me when I tried to tell her how to lay her down so that she stays sleeping. I'm not sure what else to do - we've been there 7 months, it's not like Chloe needs more time to adjust. 

The room does have a separate area for the cribs - I'm sure it's still a bit noisy, but they play music. Maybe I just need to go in some morning for her first nap and show them myself.


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## stephie_corin

Amy, these front teeth are awful! I can't believe how long they take to come in and how painful they are! I'm sorry Chloe is suffering so much too. We had a horrible night because of the teeth but I can finally see a bit of white under the surface where the swelling has been for months. I hope so badly they cut through soon! How about Chloe? Any sign?

I'm angry on your behalf about daycare. That really stinks. Poor Chloe! You'd think if she was waking up screaming they might work a bit harder to keep her asleep. If you can manage the time off work, I'd definitely go in there at nap time. Can you watch from a place Chloe can't see you and see how they are putting her down? Alternatively (and I know you said separation anxiety was kicking in so this might be a bad idea) could you go in at nap time and put her down yourself?

I hope you can sort this out soon. Good luck!


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## lysh

Gaiai- Yes, listening to a baby cry hysterically is not easy. My LO had a pissed off cry lol. I would definitely make that clear then to who watches her, it would sometimes be really hard on my DH to figure out what to do with her.

Stephie- teething is so hard!! Poor baby!

Amys- Did they say they tried the method of putting her down? We considered a formal daycare setting for more structure but the nap issue prevents us from doing it right now....at least family will cater to her more.

My LO has been doing pretty good...She slept for an hour in my arms in the morning, then 45 minutes in her crib in the afternoon with another 45 minutes in my arms nursing.


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## Shadowy Lady

hi ladies! I still read this thread sometimes and just wanted to say hang in there. Things are still good for us since initial sttn at 6.5 months but I know how hard it is not to sleep and feel for all of you. Just wanted to send you all a big hug.

My LO is at daycare now so her naps are a bit hit and miss. Her top two teeth are also finally coming through which really bothers her. But her night sleep is still pretty good still sttn 12 even 13 hours some nights :)


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## AmyS

Stephie - What a relief that you can finally see those teeth! I keep checking, but nothing!

Lysh - They said they tried, but she would wake up crying anyway. I'm not sure what to do at this point! You're right, family is a much better option if you have them available! I keep telling my mom to quit her job so she can be my full time nanny! Your LO had some good naps! 45 minutes in the crib is awesome! 

Shadowy Lady - You can join our "Rotten Daycare Naps Club". Oops, I might be the only member at the moment! 
_____________

I had to go in this morning to daycare and give her some Motrin because they thought her teeth were bothering her. It was 10am, and she'd been up for 4 hours!! They hadn't even tried to nap her!! I'm sure she probably didn't even need the Motrin, she was probably just cranky because she was tired. So, again, I reiterated our nap schedule. 

Yesterday, she came home for the day with a total of 30 minutes of naps again - one afternoon nap. I am so thankful for the weekend! She can have some normal naps, and be a happy little girl for a change! I will put her down for her naps again this weekend for more practice, and hopefully it will help for next week!


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## seaweed eater

Oh Amy, don't worry, totally with you guys in the Rotten Daycare Naps Club. I'm upset at your daycare though. I can understand that it's demanding to have a baby who's resisting naps, but it is their job to deal with it!! That's babies for you! I don't know what the teacher/baby ratio is, but mine is usually 3:1 and they've told me they've tried for nearly 2 hours to put Munchkin down before. They were able to find a teacher to spend that time with him when he was miserable and fighting naps. If your gut feeling yesterday was that they were not listening to you, I'm sure you are right. I'm sorry, I wish there were a better option for you!

Stephie, I'm so sorry you guys had another horrible night :hugs: I'm relieved to hear you say that you can see changes in his gums though. It shouldn't be long now. I hope the two top ones come in quickly at the same time and you both have a bit of a break afterward! Hang in there, my friend!!

Shadowy :wave: sorry about your nap situation (I hear ya) and the teething, but glad Sofia is still sleeping through. When did she start daycare?

Lysh, that's a great update! 45 minutes in the crib is really good. :thumbup:

Vikki, sorry about the poop! I hope your day got better.

AFU, I've been feeling better since Wednesday night so maybe I'm finally over my illness now? Fingers crossed. Munchkin is doing great, last night was probably the new best night ever. Asleep at 7, awake at 8 but fell asleep after I sat in the room with him, no nursing. Then slept until 5 -- and then very nearly SS but I think DH woke him up! :growlmad: (DH disagrees, of course. :p) Nursed then slept until 6:30. It's hard not to think there might be something to this one-nap thing... :shrug:


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## AmyS

SE - Your daycare sounds amazing! They really put a lot of care into helping him nap! 

Our ratio is 4:1, but there isn't always that many babies there. I called over my lunch, and she only napped for 20 minutes this morning and is still fussy. I'm not surprised!


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## kitabird

I feel for those of you having daycare nap issues. I remember when DS1 was with a childminder he just wouldn't nap at all, there was too much going on and she didn't put the effort in to get him to sleep. The result was an extremely overtired baby who would scream himself to sleep on the walk home and then refuse to go down at bedtime.
Hugs to all the teething babies.
SE - exciting news on the walking. Glad his sleep has been better :)
Felix slept through last night 7-5 :happydance: Much better, although he was up for the day then, so I'm still pretty exhausted. He seems to be sticking to the two naps for the most part, a short morning one and about an hour after lunch.


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## seaweed eater

Amy, I hope it didn't sound like I was just saying ours is better than yours -- I wanted to validate your feeling that you can expect more from them! :hugs: I'm sorry the nap trouble has continued. I hope she gets a good second nap if it's not too late where you live!

Kita, STTN 7-5 is fantastic!! :happydance: I completely understand still being tired from being up early though. Hope you manage to catch a nap today and the good sleep continues! The daytime schedule sounds perfect.


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## AmyS

seaweed eater said:


> Amy, I hope it didn't sound like I was just saying ours is better than yours -- I wanted to validate your feeling that you can expect more from them! :hugs: I'm sorry the nap trouble has continued. I hope she gets a good second nap if it's not too late where you live!

Not at all! But I am tempted to move to your location where they might treat my baby like the princess she is! :haha:

Hubby thought he'd be off early today, so she will hopefully get a good afternoon nap in.


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## seaweed eater

The only problem is that it costs more than college tuition! :rofl:


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## AmyS

seaweed eater said:


> The only problem is that it costs more than college tuition! :rofl:

Yikes! :wacko:


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## lysh

seaweed eater said:


> Lysh, it sounds like you did great with your LO at night :thumbup: encouraging to hear that leaving her for up to 10 minutes worked well for you! Out of curiosity, how often does she still nurse (you told Polaris "often")? Mine is a frequent nurser too and I always wonder what the next few months are likely to look at for us, when all the other babies seem to be dropping to 2-3 milk feeds a day...

Sorry, it dawned on me I never answered your question! Typically when I am trying to read/type I have one eye on my wandering girl. Since I do not get much nap time to myself, I basically do everything while entertaining LO!

DD was a colicky newborn and I had low supply/low capacity breast milk. DD nursed every hour for the first 4 months. Afterwards, we would go 1 1/2 to 2 hours, when I was not at work. Honestly, it pretty much stayed that way!!!! Now that I am home for the summer (teacher) she regressed to wanting to 'nurse' every hour. She is not taking a full feeding every single time, she does it to touch base, for comfort, when upset, for a snack.....basically she is obsessed with nursing!!!!! I wanted to wean back daytime feedings and only nurse morning/night, but distracting her does not work. She gets VERY upset and will not give up so I give in. The only time I get 2 hour stretches is when we are out and about. A few times, I even got a 3 hour break!!!


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## lysh

So last night DD slept 8-5. She went to be again at 8 so I am sure we will be up at 5. I wish she would sleep later! Sometimes she will go to 6, but not often. For a few days she slept until 6 so I got excited....did not last!!!

So naps were with me today. It is my fault though because I did not try to put her in her crib. She was SO cranky today...I could tell her gums were bothering her. She just needed the sleep, so she took an hour nap in the morning in my arms and then we laid in my bed for her afternoon nap which was an hour and 15 minutes. My focus today was just for her to get some good sleep. 

Hope everyone had a good day/night!

***Shadowylady- Glad sleep has much improved for you!


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## kitabird

Sigh, a 2 hour long motn party last night. I wonder what tonight will bring!


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## stephie_corin

I hope everyone is having a good weekend - I'll catch up properly tomorrow - currently have a very sooky, teething baby.


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## polaris

Hi everyone, I've fallen a bit behind again, sorry!

We had a strange day today because Clara refused her 2nd nap, she just didn't seem tired at all. She ended up having a catnap from 4.30 till 5 in the buggy but then she was up until 8.45 p.m. So we will see what tonight brings. The good news is that she properly self-settled again at bedtime so she does seem to be gradually weaning herself off nursing to sleep, which is encouraging. Her tooth is through the gum and she is totally over the viral infection now, so I've got my fingers and toes crossed for some good sleep!

Seaweed - how does Munchkin seem in himself on one nap? If he copes OK with it and doesn't seem tired or erratic, then I think I would be tempted to try the daycare schedule on the days that he's home with you and see how it goes. If it doesn't work, you can always go back to two naps for days that he's at home.

Kitabird - sorry to hear about the MOTN party, they are just the worst.

Lysh - DS was a very early riser so I feel your pain with the 5 a.m. starts. I am really lucky with Clara in that regard, she often sleeps in until after 7! With regard to the frequent nursing, you might find that it eases off naturally over the next couple of months, I think there is often a change at around about 14-15 months. I think you did the right thing holding her to sleep when her teeth are clearly bothering her - not the best time to be changing up her routine.

Amy - I would be so stressed out about the daycare napping situation in your shoes. I'm always impressed with how calmly you deal with things, you address the situation but you don't seem to get stress-y about it, or that's how your posts come across anyway. It's fantastic!

Stephie - hope this is really it this time for those elusive front teeth! :hugs:


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## gaiagirl

Polaris that's great about the movement away from nursing to sleep. I would love that, at least some of the time. We have gotten to the point where F will roll away and settle on his own but he still needs to nurse to calm himself and relax to the point of sleepiness! He seems to have a hard time just transitioning into sleepy time mindset, so I hope over time he learns that! I know when he can understand more words we can try to teach him, but we will see! 

Last night was much better, although he still needed me a few times throughout the evening. He will make a few noises and then settle himself without waking often but sometimes it just won't take. Lol. Checked on him around 10pm last night and he must have crawled/rolled out of bed because he was asleep in the middle of the room! Lol. He moves around a LOT lately while trying to get comfy. I'm actually a bit worried he may have to stop bedsharing because he needs more space. We will see, I'm definitely not ready or wanting that yet!


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## polaris

gaiagirl said:


> Polaris that's great about the movement away from nursing to sleep. I would love that, at least some of the time. We have gotten to the point where F will roll away and settle on his own but he still needs to nurse to calm himself and relax to the point of sleepiness! He seems to have a hard time just transitioning into sleepy time mindset, so I hope over time he learns that! I know when he can understand more words we can try to teach him, but we will see!
> 
> Last night was much better, although he still needed me a few times throughout the evening. He will make a few noises and then settle himself without waking often but sometimes it just won't take. Lol. Checked on him around 10pm last night and he must have crawled/rolled out of bed because he was asleep in the middle of the room! Lol. He moves around a LOT lately while trying to get comfy. I'm actually a bit worried he may have to stop bedsharing because he needs more space. We will see, I'm definitely not ready or wanting that yet!

LOL, I think I might have overstated Clara's self-settling ability! She still totally needs to nurse until she's relaxed, but recently there have been a few times that she has still been quite wide awake after finishing nursing and she has rolled over and wiggled around for five minutes or so and managed to settle herself to sleep without nursing again. I am still lying right beside her and she can roll back and nurse more if she wants! But it's still a step in the right direction I think! 

Clara also moves around a lot when she's settling herself and also when she's sleeping. I often end up following her round the bed in my sleep, so I will wake up and both of us will be lying the wrong way round in the bed!


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## detterose

After 2 weeks in what I think is worse then the 4 month sleep regression I thought I would come over here. We have been stuck in wonder week 26 for 2 weeks. LO can wake anywhere from 4-8 or more times a night. Takes forever to go to sleep and when he wakes he wants to play. He is trying so hard to crawl but I really pray this doesnt last til he is officially crawling. I am a wreck and I work so I feel like a zombie at my job. Someone tell me it gets better?!


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## gaiagirl

detterose it gets better!!!! (And then worse and then better again and then worse and then...you get the picture) Honesty 3.5-9 months has been a roller coaster for us. I keep hearing at 11, 12, 16, 18 months its better but I'm just keeping my expectation to 24 months. Haha. But seriously, I think expectation and state of mind play a HUGE roll in being able to deal with sleep issues.

Some people seem to recover much quicker though, don't let my bleak case get ya down ;)

We can try to give real practical advice too if you want!


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## detterose

Thats what I keep hearing. That it gets bad then good then bad again. Ahhh not sure how much more I can take at the moment. Especially when everything that normally works isnt anymore! We have resorted to cosleeping but OH is worried LO will get used to it.


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## stephie_corin

Amy, I hope Chloe caught up on some sleep over the weekend. Do you find any difference in her night sleep from when she has good naps to the days she is in daycare?

SE, I'm very curious how Munchkin is coping on one nap too? It's amazing he can stay awake for so long before the one nap. Although - as you say, the routine in his current room doesn't lend itself to an earlier nap.

Lysh, I'm glad she got some good naps! Cully sleeps so much better in my arms. If I transfer him he usually wakes pretty quickly. 

Kita, I'm so sorry! 2 hours is such a long time in the middle of the night!

Polaris, that is similar to what Cully has done with his naps since he got over that virus. He was taking three naps when he was unwell but now he won't take his first nap until 3-4 hours after waking and a cat nap around 430. He even fell asleep at 5 the other day. I felt bad getting him up because he cried but he could easily have slept a few hours at that time.

Gaia, I can't believe F was asleep in the middle of the room! How funny! Did you put him back in bed or just wait for his next night waking? Cully has taken to getting up and crawling around for his evening wake ups too- I see him in the video monitor and run upstairs because our mattress is still a foot off the ground and he tries to go down head first.

Detterose, welcome! I'm sorry sleep is so bad for you at the moment. This is such a tough age for sleep! What's your day routine like?

Would you believe, still no front teeth! He's in pain and struggling to sleep even with pain relief. There is a lot of rocking going on here at the moment - I think I fell asleep sitting up last night. One day this will all be a distant memory I'm sure!


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## lysh

Polaris- Thank you- I am hoping the nursing gets better. I go back to work in less than 4 weeks now and I am not pumping, so we will see. Still nurse to sleep....she went back to her normal routine and I just went with it. Honestly, I am fine if that is the last thing that goes.

detterose- It will get better....I kind of forced the issue with my LO though. I could not function at work....I would get up and tend to my daughter but she had to at least give me 2 1/2-3 hour stretches of sleep. If she was not crying because she was in pain or scared, I would let her fuss for a bit in her crib until she went back to sleep. Honestly, if I did not do that I would probably still be waking up multiple times a night!!! Eventually she went from 2 1/2 stretches to longer naturally. 

Little girl did well last night...slept 8:15-5:50!!!! I am getting hopes again that she might sleep a little later. She did 30 minutes in her crib in the afternoon yesterday...rest was in my arms! I did not force it though...still teething.


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## Miss Vintage

Hi ladies, I hope you don't mind me jumping in but you all seem to know your stuff and I was hoping to get some advice. We've been doing cc at night with my 10 month old since last Monday, so 6 nights. It's been largely successful, the first 2 nights he slept through :happydance: after half an hour of moaning/crying and regular reassurance checks (every 5-7 minutes). But after that he really protested bedtime and woke in the night, when it then took an hour and 15 minutes to settle him first night, and 2 1/2 hours the second. Third night was not as bad, and last night he slept 8-6.30 again. So my questions are:

1. Is it imperative that he naps, no matter what. The first 2 nights he had taken both his naps, same last night, but the nights he woke he had missed his afternoon nap and was so grumpy come bedtime. He usually self settles no problem for naps, has done for a while, but sometimes he needs to be rocked. Rocking is the habit we're trying to break at night, so I don't want to confuse him, but he clearly sleeps better when he's had his daytime sleep. I think I've seen on here that naps are regulated differently from night time sleep anyway? 

2. We were using the Ferber method, so extending response time each night, but as he got worse as we went on, I think maybe shorter intervals are better? The night we started with a 15 minute interval he was really upset by the time it came to go in. The book says he shouldn't be like this at this point in the programme, but maybe he needs us to go in more often? I went back to 5 and seven minutes last night and it seemed to help. The book suggests he'll never be able to self settle without us coming in if we don't extend the wait period. Does anyone have any experience of this? 

3. Should I be avoiding picking him up at all costs? The nights he was bad I did pick him up because he was so upset, and I held him till he calmed down, which worked, but again I don't want to confuse him.

Thanks so much for reading, I really want to get this right and do right by my son, I'm going back to work next month and I can't be up rocking him all night any more, it's killing me!


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## seaweed eater

Lysh, thanks for telling me about your nursing schedule. Does she take much solid food? Mine is a snacker too...I've often wondered whether it means my supply is low but the amount I pump seems to be normal. :shrug: He's starting to space his out a _little_ more now that he's eating more solid food, but I still can't imagine him nursing twice a day...guess we'll see.

I'm sorry about your early mornings, and about the teething. I'm sure you have experimented with bedtime and know what the sweet spot is for you? The difference between 5 and 6 is huge for me. :hugs: I think you were right to just focus on getting her daytime sleep, given how early she'd been up. And it looks like it paid off with a later morning! :thumbup:

Kita, sorry about your MOTN :hugs: how was last night?

Stephie, ugh so sorry that those stupid teeth are not in yet!!! :hugs: :hugs: You are way past due a good week. I hope you wake up and see two teeth tomorrow!

Polaris, glad Clara is feeling better. I really hope you do get some good sleep. The SS sounds very promising, that's the same as what Munchkin does to go to sleep.

Gaia, I'm glad things went better :thumbup: I can imagine why you are thinking of stopping bedsharing. Munchkin likes to sleep against the side of the crib...if there were no side, I'm not sure what he would do!

Detterose, welcome :hugs: I'm sorry you are struggling. Gaia is right, it WILL get better, but then worse... but then better! Maybe we can give you some help though. Can you post your daily routine? When/where/how does LO sleep? What happens when LO wakes up during the night? You mentioned cosleeping, when did that start?

Miss Vintage, welcome to you too :hugs: it sounds like you had an extinction burst with CC. It's pretty normal for things to get worse around nights 3-4 and then better again. I imagine you will continue to have smoother sailing, although I'm sorry you went through those really long wakings.

You should definitely rock him for naps if that's the way he gets daytime sleep. You can work on SS for naps after nighttime is going consistently well. It sounds like overtiredness due to bad naps really affects him (though as I said it could also just have been an extinction burst). My understanding is that what you read about daytime and nighttime sleep being regulated differently is correct. So just be really consistent at night and do whatever you need to do during naps for now. I think you'll know when you are ready to proceed to naps.

I would also shorten the intervals if that seems to help. Just make sure you are doing it consistently and not in response to LO's cries. Also, IMO it is perfectly ok to pick him up as long as he is going down awake and self-settling once he's calm. You're lucky in a way -- some babies prefer to have no help at all in going to sleep, and then their parents end up being pushed toward CIO even if that wasn't their original plan!


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## seaweed eater

Oh, and Stephie and Polaris, you asked how Munchkin is doing on one nap. He seems fine, oddly enough :shrug: it's the first wake time that's really long and I don't get to see him myself during that one, but his teachers have assured me that he seems happy and not tired. In his second wake time he's certainly fine until close to bedtime.

It's strange -- some mornings I think, there's no way he's going to stay up until noon today, but he always does! I guess it's the routine and all the stimulation. Sometimes he falls asleep in the car at 8:15, but not always!

We're still doing 2 naps on weekends. He's just really ready for a nap at 9 so I put him down. :shrug: Obviously his bedtime is a bit later on two nap days but I'm just GWTF for now!


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## Miss Vintage

Thanks so much seaweed eater, that's really helpful. He took both naps today, so we'll see how tonight goes.


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## gaiagirl

Stephie, I did move him but he woke up so that was a bit unfortunate. We use the angel care under his bed but the fan in his room must have affected it so it didn't beep when he left the mattress. I could only leave him in his room while I sleep if he's on the bed, so I know where he is. So yah...had no choice but to try moving him! 

SE I have a bed rail so I'm not really too worried about him falling off our bed, I just wonder if he needs the space to move around and settle himself. Last night he was back to more calm sleep so not sure...will just keep playing it by ear! DH and I both really prefer him in our room for now so hopefully it continues to work.

Detterose I would not worry yourself too much about cosleeping. Babies change a LOT in the first few years and their needs change too. If you and DH are ok with bedsharing and it works, don't stress. But I'm a huge advocate of it so that's my take ;) I absolutely love it and am so glad we went this route as we all get what we need this way. It gets bad press in our bizarre society but its actually the way we were evolved to sleep. So there's a reason it is often 'easier'. You're not trying to battle the current of infant physiology. Instead you're going with it.


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## polaris

Just a quick update as we have visitors so I can't reply properly - Clara did a four hour stretch of sleep last night!! She woke at 10 p.m. and had a quick feed and then I didn't hear anything from her until 2.10 a.m.! The rest of the night wasn't too bad either, just a few short wakings. This is such a huge improvement on her recent sleep! Feeling much more optimistic that things will eventually improve.


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## detterose

Thanks ladies for all your responses. At the moment it just feels so hopeless and like it's not getting any better. The last few nights have gotten worse. He wont even lie still in bed with us. He just squirms around until we pick him up and rock him to sleep. Then when we lay down with him, he wakes up and cries again :'(

As for our daily routine, Hunter usually wakes at 6am. He has a bottle as soon as he is awake, we play til about 7:30-8am and he goes down for his morning nap. Generally he is pretty good at self settling until lately, now he needs to be rocked or patted to sleep, because he just fights it and cries and thrusts himself around his cot. When he does eventually go off, his naps can last anywhere from 20 minutes to an hour. If he has a short nap I will try get him back to sleep but if he wont, I will take him back outside to play. 

He has lots of tummy time, time in a play centre and jolly jumper. He only lasts 2 hours between naps so he goes back down for a nap 2 hours after the last time he woke. And this continues til 5pm which is when we wind down for bed. If he is interested he gets some solids, then a bath and then bottle.

He is still swaddled, but not so his arms are restricted, its a free to move swaddle so he can access his hands but tight enough so he wont wake himself when he flails his arms. And we blast white noise. He then gets put down to sleep in his cot by 6pm. 

Usually he will sleep through til about 2am, has a bottle and goes back to sleep til 6am. But lately he sleeps til 8pm, cries til we go in and pat him back off. He will go back to sleep for maybe 10-20 mins, cries again. So we offer a bottle. He might go back to sleep for an hour, cries and we try to pat him back off. Its usually by this point he refuses to go back to sleep so we take him to our bed. For a little while he would last through the night with us just needing to be patted back to sleep every now and again through the night but the last few nights he has been horrible, just screams until we pick him up and rock him. I thought it was just Wonder Week 26. But he is now 27w 5 days but his due date and this has been going on for over 2 weeks. He has been trying to crawl but I dont know what to do anymore :shrug:


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## seaweed eater

:hugs: Sorry to hear how much you guys are struggling, Detterose. My first thought is to try extending his wake times and dropping to 2 naps, since you said he is fighting the first one. Is he showing sleepy signs at 7:30-8 when you put him down? Have you ever tried taking him out of bed and putting him down again later when he fights -- and if so, does that help?


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## gaiagirl

Oh that sounds rough, I guess I assumed you were BFing? If not and having to keep getting up and rocking then that certainly makes life more difficult. Has he started solids? Could he be having tummy issues? It sounds like he is quite restless which makes me think maybe he is uncomfortable?


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## seaweed eater

Oh and YAY POLARIS AND CLARA!! :happydance: Really hoping better times are ahead for you!!!


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## detterose

Hi seaweed eater, I have tried extending the time between his naps and then he gets overtired and even worse to put down. Before his sleeping went to sh-t, he would go down without problem. He grizzles and rubs his eyes around the 1 1/2 hr-2hr mark. So I try not to push him past that. Should I try maybe and see if he improves over the next few days??

Gaia, no sorry, not anymore. Long story with latching and reflux problems :( I thought maybe that too? But I cant see any new teeth through, he already has his front bottom two. Should I take him to a Dr to rule out an ear infection??? Its been 2 weeks, not sure how long Wonder Week 26 should last for but I thought it would be over by now. He has solids occasionally, only if he is interested. He still sleeps poorly on the days he has no solids :shrug:


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## stephie_corin

Detterose, your story is similar to mine. I moved to full time bed sharing when my son was about 6 months because the cot was too dangerous on the high setting and he was too heavy for me to pick up on the lowest setting. I am still rocking for every wake up but a week or so ago he was showing signs of not wanting to be rocked and we weaned ourselves off rocking very quickly. He then fell ill and is teething so we are back to rocking. I am hopeful we can work on the rocking once his front teeth are through. It's HARD rocking at every wake up - I feel your pain. You could try to just hold him and let him cry in your arms while trying to soothe him in other ways if you are comfortable with that approach. Or you can wait it out knowing he will eventually outgrow it, of course. Do you think he just wants a cuddle? Have you tried lying next to him with your arm under his head and jiggling while you are lying down?

I agree that you should try and lengthen his awake times. He may be napping too much in the day which is affecting his night sleep. He may be tired for a few days but he should adjust quickly.

SE, I'm glad Munchkin is doing great on one nap :) is anyone still following approximate waketimes with success? It seems like we are all doing variations of GWTF at the moment! 

Miss Vintage, good luck! I hope the sleep training goes well. SE has given wonderful advice, as usual :)

Polaris, I'm happy for you my friend :) that's such wonderful news!

Gaia, I hope you guys don't have to give up bedsharing anytime soon! You don't have a sidecar crib, do you? You could try that for some extra space for everyone.

Amy, how are you guys? Bababas? Kita?

Our night was pretty blah. Still no teeth - SE, I hope we don't have weeks to wait like you with Munchkin! I didn't give pain relief last night because he has had quite a bit with his fever last week and then the last two nights due to teething.

Have a great day everyone :)


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## detterose

Hi Stephie, it is so hard isn't it. It wouldnt be nearly as exhausting if we werent having to rock him all the time. I have tried that every night, but he actually just continues to crack up and squirm until I stand up with him. As soon as I stand up, he stops crying, its so strange. I will try lengthen out his awake times over a course of a few days and see how we go. He went down to bed tonight at 6pm without a fight for once, so we will see how long it takes before he wakes up and ends up in our bed lol


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## stephie_corin

detterose said:


> Hi Stephie, it is so hard isn't it. It wouldnt be nearly as exhausting if we werent having to rock him all the time. I have tried that every night, but he actually just continues to crack up and squirm until I stand up with him. As soon as I stand up, he stops crying, its so strange. I will try lengthen out his awake times over a course of a few days and see how we go. He went down to bed tonight at 6pm without a fight for once, so we will see how long it takes before he wakes up and ends up in our bed lol

My son isn't fooled by that move either - I still try it every night in the hope it will work :)

He will outgrow it eventually - but if you don't want to wait (which I totally understand!) there are some gentle sleep training and other sleep training methods we can help you with - collectively there is a lot of experience on this thread!

Cully is going through quite a needy phase due to his teeth and tonight I am going to try rocking him and then sitting up in bed with my arms supported so I can try get some sleep. The transfer wakes him every time at the moment. I think he's asleep and 5 minutes later he is moaning/crying. Do you think your son is teething? Hugs to you!


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## AmyS

Stephie - Any top teeth yet? Chloe is still very fussy, but no teeth have shown! When she has bad naps at daycare, she will sleep really good at night, until it catches up with her - then we tend to have a couple of bad nights in a row. Sorry for the bad night! Do you have lazyboy furniture over there? I kick myself in the butt daily for not getting a lazyboy recliner when it was recommended to me - they rock and recline at the same time! Chloe's rocking chair is comfortable, but it doesn't recline, so if I fall asleep, it makes my neck and back hurt. 

Lysh - I don't think it's wrong to support a good nap when they need it - even if it means holding them! I only got to put my LO down for a nap a couple of times this weekend, because she was extra fussy.

polaris - Thanks for the kind words! I do try to see the daycare's side of the situation too - I just want someone to tell me how I can help the situation. I do get really stressed, but then I remember that she will be growing out of this phase soon, and everything will change again! It's kind of looking like I might be heading to some nap training...the hard way, unfortunately.

Clara is doing so well - that's great that she's ss, and the 4 hour stretch is amazing!

Gaia - So funny that F ended up sleeping in the middle of the room!! 

detterose - Sorry you're here! 6 months was a bad time at my house too! I hear it gets better when they're teenagers - they don't want to get out of bed! haha Seriously, you've gotten some good advice already from the other ladies!
______________

We have a fussy baby over here! With her adjusted age, we are still in WW37, so I'm blaming it on that. And teeth! I'm surprised daycare hasn't called me yet to come give her some Motrin. 

I am sick also, so last night she woke up at 9 - hubby very graciously offered to go put her back to sleep. Apparently, that wasn't good enough for her, so Chloe started freaking out on him. I ended up having to calm her down with a bottle, and then she slept ok - still up at 5am though! 

Naps this weekend didn't go so well either! Her first nap both mornings didn't get beyond 10 - 15 minutes because of a barking dog on Saturday, and then she fell asleep in the car Sunday.

I think I'm going to end up doing some sort of nap training here. I still feed her to sleep, but when she moves to the next room at daycare, she will be off the bottle and need to fall asleep on her own. That's a few months away, but hopefully I can come up with some gradual method to get her there. I haven't tried any other way yet, so maybe she'll surprise me!


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## Miss Vintage

Well, last night started well, but went downhill. Leo went to sleep by himself without either of us having to go in. But, he then woke up at 1 and didn't go back to sleep until 10 to 4. Urgh. I picked him up several times and tried to put him down awake but in the end I had to hold him until he was really drowsy and then rub his back, so he was more or less asleep when I left the room. It felt like the right thing to do at the time, but now I feel really disappointed and worried I've ruined all our hard work. He's sneezing a lot today so I think he might be sickening for a cold, obviously I don't want him crying for too long if that's the case, but I so don't want to go back to square one. I think I'll just try and put him down awake and see what happens, but pick him up and calm him if I need to. 

Detterose, all night rocking is what I was doing before starting cc, so I know how you feel, it's a killer.


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## detterose

Well just an update. I think it may be pain related after all. I feel so silly and so sorry for my baby boy for not realising earlier. His cries sounded painful last night and he has only been having half of his bottles at a time. He had the sniffles not long ago so I am tjinking it could possibly be an ear infection? We gave him some baby panadol and after 15 mins he ended up self settling in his own room and slept from 11-5. I am going to take him to my work today to see our Dr and rule out the ear infection theory.


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## stephie_corin

Detterose, it could be teething too - I think some babies teeth for months before any visible signs of teeth. I hope your boy is better soon.

Miss Vintage, so sorry about your MOTN baby party. I hope he isn't sick! It's hard to know what to do sometimes. I think following your instincts is a good idea.

Amy, still no teeth here. I live the idea of a lazy boy recliner! We've only got a rocking chair and I just sit up in bed and rock him and its so tough on my back! 

It's hard on you if you know Chloe isn't functioning at her best because of naps. And those bad nights after the good ones (at her expense because of bad daycare naps) are no good! What sort of nap training are you considering? Have you thought of trying the equivalent of the Pantley Pull Off for naps? Will they help her at all in the next room, even to get drowsy? Or will they all nap at the same time?

Cully took a 30 minute nap after 3.5 hour awake time and is now in the middle of a 1 hour long nap (not sure how long it will go) after 4 hours. I've been shooting for a 730 bedtime regardless of when he wakes up but he's been fighting bedtime badly. Do you guys think I should push bedtime back? It's 4pm now and he may sleep until 430. Should I try 8pm or 830pm or do you think that's too late? I feel like he is too restless. For his first few wakeups (usually 3-4 before 10pm) he rolls over and starts crawling immediately, no crying. He closes his eyes the instant I pick him up but maybe he needs a longer awake time before bed. I'm loath to put him in bed too late because I feel like I really need an hour or two me time before the night time parenting shift starts!


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## lysh

I do not have a lot of time to reply or update....but it just hit me how it is funny how much we focus on getting our kids to sleep now and yet one day we will be fighting to get them out of bed and up in the mornings! lol


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## AmyS

Miss Vintage - That's a long wake time, 1-4! I wouldn't worry too much about ruining your hard work - if he's getting sick, he might have needed a little more cuddles!

detterose - What did you find out from the doctor? Could be teething too - it can hurt to suck on a bottle. (I scrolled down, and see Stephie says the same thing!) Glad you figured it out and got some rest in!

Stephie - I haven't got a nap plan yet! I'm so unsure about it. If I do some form of cc/cio, then I'll need to take a couple of days off of work I think, so that we can do it a few days in a row over a weekend. I'm not sure how they do it in the next room - when I go in tomorrow, I'm going to talk to the lady who watches the kids in there and find out - since Chloe could be going over there in the next few months, it would make more sense to do things that way. 

Is Cully fighting bedtime by crying or just not acting tired? A few times last week, I tried to put Chloe down and she would pop back up and start acting silly, so I let her crawl around and tried again about 30-45 minutes later. I know it's hard to lose your adult time in the evening though! With his long wake times, it's kind of hard to have an earlier bedtime!

Lysh - I completely agree with you! I always joke that someday I will get my revenge - when she's a teenager, I'll be getting her up at 5am to help me clean or something.

polaris - Today, I am stressed!!!!!!!!!
_____________________

So yesterday at daycare, she had a couple of good naps, BUT, they had to hold her for them. They told my hubby that she has the stamina of 10 babies, and that when they put her down to CIO, she will not stop crying until they pick her up - and they have to pick her up, or she keeps all of the babies awake! I feel awful about this.

I don't know how to handle this exactly. I don't really want to do cc or cio. As I said to Stephie up top, I'm going to talk to the lady in the next room up tomorrow and see exactly how she does naps in there, and then maybe we will just start doing things that way. Unfortunately, that won't help her in her current room, but I don't know how to do things my way that the providers can/will follow through with at daycare. Ugh.


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## stephie_corin

Amy, I hope you do find a solution. I do think CIO/CC just doesn't work for some babies. I'm not saying its a bad thing - just that some babies are super resistant to it. Could they wear her in a carrier? Would she nap that way? I hope something works soon! What about extending her waketime right out so she ets one good nap?

Cully just doesn't seem tired... I feel like he would stay up forever if I didn't rock him and rock him and rock him... I didn't want to do this but I think I will have to make a 'no naps past 4 and if its past 4 then only 15 minutes' kind of rule, which is not really GWTF!

Lysh, I agree - we spend so much time thinking about this :)


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## AmyS

stephie_corin said:


> Amy, I hope you do find a solution. I do think CIO/CC just doesn't work for some babies. I'm not saying its a bad thing - just that some babies are super resistant to it. Could they wear her in a carrier? Would she nap that way? I hope something works soon! What about extending her waketime right out so she ets one good nap?
> 
> Cully just doesn't seem tired... I feel like he would stay up forever if I didn't rock him and rock him and rock him... I didn't want to do this but I think I will have to make a 'no naps past 4 and if its past 4 then only 15 minutes' kind of rule, which is not really GWTF!
> 
> Lysh, I agree - we spend so much time thinking about this :)

You can still be GWTF and have a few necessary rules! Especially to preserve your much needed adult time! 

My mom claims that my brothers and I never really napped as babies - and of course this is before the age of reading baby books and knowing what babies "should" and "should not" be doing. What happens if you just let him go and go and go? Does he get really cranky? Do your nights REALLY get bad then? I was surprised last week that Chloe would sleep so good after a day of basically no naps - it didn't even "catch up" with her this weekend like I feared it would. Maybe it's all a myth! 

I don't think I could get them to wear her - I think they'd find it difficult to attend to the other babies that way. She hasn't fallen asleep in her carrier either, now that I think about it! Or her stroller...she is a stubborn gal! They unintentionally extended her wake time a few times last week when she didn't nap in the morning, and she still only managed 30-40 minutes with someone holding her. I don't think she can be fooled! :haha: I really don't think I will end up doing CIO/CC. It's just not for me or her. I am tempted to just start transitioning to floor naps like she'll take in the next room - I just need a plan!


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## polaris

Hi everyone.
Clara had another pretty good night last night, she did a three hour stretch at the start of the night which was fantastic! And she has been asleep two hours already this evening without a peep! So things are maybe turning a little corner for us, fingers crossed.

Stephie, I have given up on trying to get Clara to bed early. She is doing much better with a bedtime of 8.30 or 9. I don't generally let her sleep past 4 or 4.30 at the absolute latest. I am also thinking of limiting her morning nap to 1 hour. I would love to have her in bed early. Thomas was always fast asleep by 6.30 or 7 and it was wonderful to have adult time in the evenings. The only thing that saves my sanity at the moment is that I have got them both napping at the same time from about 2.30 to 4 so I have 1.5 hours of child free time during the day. But this means that Thomas generally doesn't want to go to bed until 9.30 or 10 by which time I am ready to drop from exhaustion!

Amy - Clara would also be the baby who screamed so persistently that she woke all the other babies. When we did CC with her she cried pretty much all night for the first night. I don't think she slept more than three hours the whole night and cried the whole rest of the time. I agree with Stephie that it just doesn't seem to be a good fit for some babies, whereas other babies respond really quickly to it and just go to sleep! With regard to your nap dilemma, I think that's a good plan to speak to the person in the next room and make a plan from there. Floor naps definitely could work. That is what we do and sometimes she feeds to sleep and sometimes she self-settles while I lie beside her. That might work if daycare could lie next to her while she fell asleep?


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## lysh

Amy- I have a stubborn girl too, so I can relate!!! I am so done with naps....some moms LOVE naptime.....just never been easy here. I have decided to give up on nap training.....it is just not going to work with my girl. She will nap for 30 minutes (typically) in her crib and the rest with me. I tried CC, CIO, Pick up, Put down, Singing lullabies, rocking, patting.....it is not worth the stress anymore! At some point she will grow out of this and when I go back to work she will adjust for whoever is watching her and if she doesn't we will deal with it!!!! Maybe when we wean it will be easier for her, who knows! 

I sometimes do wonder if these 'sleep books' make us more crazy than they are worth. My MIL once said to me (when I was reading this books like crazy) to put the books down and listen to my baby. She said every baby is different and I need to listen to mine. I just kind of ignored that advice and kept reading....I am starting to understand why she said that.

Polaris- Hope things are getting better for you! My dd goes to be at 8 or 8:30...wakes up between 5 or 6 (if I am lucky). She just will never be a baby that sleeps 11-12 hours a night.

Stephie- I know how hard it is being 'on duty' all of the time. I like 'me' time too. It is hard when I am working because 'me' time is running around and getting ready for the next day, especially since dd goes to bed 8 or 8:30. Good luck with the earlier bedtime!


Again, every baby is different, but for those who might eventually use some sort of sleep training (night or for naps) I suggest not waiting until they are too old. We did some training (cc) just to get my daughter into her crib when she was 4 1/2 months old. I was about to go back to work and I needed to be able to go to sleep after 7...I use to go to bed with her every night because she would only sleep bfing all night long. I get that is earlier than what some experts recommend, but it was not for her to learn self-soothing, it was for her to allow us to put her into her crib which was not happening without some crying. At that point, I still got up whenever she wanted to nurse and for a while I was getting out of bed sometimes 8+ times a night. When she was slightly older, we did some CC to spread the feedings out a bit to at least 2 1/2 hours. When she cried before that time was up, DH would go and comfort her. She caught on fairly quickly, and after that she naturally spread feedings even further and further until I was only getting up twice a night. Eventually went down to one and then at around 11 months she pretty much STTN unless her routine was disrupted. When we did CC, she never really went past 10 minutes. There was a few times when she did almost 15, but rare. Now that she is older and more aware, I do not think I could do it. The one time I tried it with naps it was a disaster. I really think 6-9 months is the most opportune time....again, just my opinion based on recent experiences!


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## seaweed eater

Hey :wave: will have to catch up with you all a bit later, just a quick update from us. We just got home from a few days out of town with family...remember ages ago when I said Munchkin would need to sleep in the travel crib? That was this week!

He did well with it, though in a way oddly similar to the last round of ST -- extremely intense crying at bedtime the first night and then basically fine. :shrug: I'm really not sure what to make of this pattern. I don't like it! If he is able to learn so quickly, shouldn't there be a way to avoid the trauma?

Things have been chaotic again, though, because as if the new bed weren't enough, our first experience with croup Sunday night nearly took us to the ER. Nothing scary last night, but still the usual miserable cold and fever. I'm guessing I'll catch it from him next. I'm so glad it hasn't been anything serious but still ready for all of us to be healthy again!

More later, wishing all of you a good night :hugs:


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## detterose

Well it wasnt an ear infection. The doctor said it is a respiratory infeftion he has still but that doesnt explain the last 2.5 weeks because he got it after the wakings already begun. And the teething has only flared up in the last few days because I can tell he teethes as soon as he starts refusing his bottles. So I guess we are back at square one.. -sigh- How are the rest of you ladies xxx


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## kitabird

I give up! LO gets up at different hours for different lengths of time every night, there's just no pattern to it at all. The length and timing of his naps don't seem to have any bearing. Neither does anything else I do. He just does what he feels like doing, so I may as well stop trying to analyse it and accept that I'm doomed! :haha:


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## lysh

kitabird said:


> I give up! LO gets up at different hours for different lengths of time every night, there's just no pattern to it at all. The length and timing of his naps don't seem to have any bearing. Neither does anything else I do. He just does what he feels like doing, so I may as well stop trying to analyse it and accept that I'm doomed! :haha:

LOL....that was my LO for the LONGEST time before she started to STTN. Now, she just wakes up at different times. I got excited she was going to wake up at 6...back to 5. Naps were and will probably always be without a schedule, different lengths etc. until she is old enough to stop napping OR we are on a one nap a day schedule...who knows! I think some babies just do what they feel like doing and that is about it!


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## lysh

So yesterday naps were once again a disaster. She fell asleep at 9:10 in the morning (earlier than usual). I tried to put her in her crib (I always try, never know!) and surprisingly she stayed asleep. This NEVER happens for her morning nap...usually I try and she wakes up and that is it until the afternoon nap. So she slept for 30 minutes in her crib (typical) and then slept on me for another hour and a half. I figured we were screwed for the afternoon and we were....she was overtired and beside herself, so I had no choice but to let her nap at 4:30...tried to get her down earlier but she was not having it. So she slept for an hour on me. Bedtime was rough...she was tired, but not as tired because of her late nap. I pretty much had to sing 'Hush Little Baby' 10 times to get her to calm down because she refused to easily go into her crib. While I was singing and trying to calm her down, I went to lift my hand to pat her belly and she panicked, screamed loudly and threw her hand on top of mine. :( She thought I was going to leave her. My heart broke. I just continued to sing and then eventually she drifted off to sleep. I am telling you, the older they get the harder it is!


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## polaris

Last night was rubbish again after two good nights. Oh well, at least she has a couple of better nights!


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## stephie_corin

Amy, I've been thinking of you guys and I think if CC was going to work by now it would have, right? They've been doing it at daycare since she started? I know you said you probably won't go down that path but it crossed my mind today that it already seems ineffective with her. Or is the concern that because you're not doing CC at home that it's making the CC at daycare ineffective? It's such a tough situation. I really feel for you both. 

SE, so sorry about the croup! I hope Munchkin is feeling much better now and I hope you had a nice break. 

Detterose, I'm so sorry you don't have an answer. I've felt like that for months. I almost find myself hoping a doctor will find something so at least there is an explanation.

Kita, this is such a bad age for sleep. Even friends whose babies STTN have had sleep disruptions around this age. It doesn't make it any easier but I do think its normal. Hugs to you.

Lysh, I'm struggling with the late nap some days too - it's so tricky! My heart jerked a bit when you said she cried and grabbed your hand :( poor baby! It does get harder the older they get!

Polaris, sorry that you had a bad night after two promising ones! I hope tonight is better for you. I can't believe some nights Thomas goes to bed so late, you must be so exhausted!!! At least you get a little bit of time to yourself, but it's not much!

So today I didn't rock him for any naps and he did a 30 minute nap in the morning and then a 1.5 hour nap at 1pm (he SS twice!) and we had a 5 hour awake time before bed. It was a spectacular disaster... I had to rock him for ages to get him to sleep because he was so overtired! Work in progress I guess.


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## AmyS

SE - Croup?? Oh my! I hope he's feeling better now! That would be scary, even if it wasn't too bad. Chloe had a mild case of RSV this winter, and that scared me into trying to relactate, because I thought it was my fault that she got sick right after my milk dried up. (Ouch.)

detterose - Hang in there! He will be feeling better soon! Too bad the teething pain comes and goes.

kitabird - Do you think you're in the middle of the 8 month regression? I hear that can be a "fun" one.

lysh - Yay for napping in the crib, but sorry it led to a late afternoon nap. How heartbreaking that she panicked and grabbed your hand!! I am not looking forward to those days - I am such a pushover! I can't stand to see sad little babies.

polaris - She's keeping you on your toes! I see Clara is almost 1!!! How exciting - do you have a big party planned?

Stephie - As you can see, I've been getting suggestions from everywhere! Including the elusive Noelle... I agree with you, I really don't think any sort of cio/cc is the answer here. They've already been trying that and getting nowhere! For now, I have ordered velour sheets for her daycare crib (like the ones she has at home), and I'll just keep putting her down for naps like I have been. As long as night sleep is going okay, I will TRY not to stress.

No rocking for naps and ss twice!!! That's great!! Even though your bedtime was bad, I think he's moving in the right direction again! I can't imagine chloe going strong 5 hours later, yikes! That's a long wake time! 
_____________________

Chloe had an ok night, with one hour long wake time from 2:30-3:30am, and then she was up at 5am. I couldn't get back to sleep after getting up at 2:30, because I have a sinus and ear infection - ouch. Thank goodness I work in a doctor's office and have access to things that will cure me quickly, I hope.

I pick Chloe up at 1pm today - so I hope she got a nap in this morning, otherwise she will fall asleep on the way home. That could be a disaster car nap! I hate those!


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## polaris

We had an odd day today, we all slept in until 8 a.m. (after a really rubbish night) which meant that Clara didn't want to take a morning nap. We had arranged to meet a friend at 11 and I hoped she might take a catnap in the buggy on the way but she didn't. Of course she fell asleep in the buggy on the way home and actually ended up sleeping for almost two hours!! She was starving when she woke up as she'd had no lunch! Anyway she was in really bad form for the rest of the day, as was Thomas because he didn't fall asleep for his nap (very unusual for him!). So we had a bit of a stressful evening but they were both fast asleep by 7.30 which makes a nice change!

Sorry to hear about so much illness going round! Amy, I hope you feel better soon, and SE, I hope Munchkin is much better now and that you don't catch it!

Stephie, fab news about the naps, shame about the bedtime. Five hours is too much for Clara too although she sometimes seems to want to stay awake that long. 

Lysh - that is how Clara reacts if she catches me trying to sneak away too soon. Total panic and freak out. It's so strange because my son never wanted us to stay with him when he fell asleep. Actually he wouldn't go to sleep if there was someone in the room with him. Clara is the opposite. I always thought that it was because I had got him used to falling asleep on his own when he was young, but now I know that it was just his personality because it wouldn't have worked for Clara!


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## Miss Vintage

Hi everyone, well, we've had mixed nights. Another long night waking, I had to hold Leo until he fell asleep, I tried to put him down drowsy but he was having none of it! But since then things have been better. He's self settled at bedtime the last 3 nights, and yesterday and this evening we didn't even have to go in once. Night wakings are still rough but I finally am allowing myself to feel we might be turning a corner. At least I can hope there will be no more rocking!

SE, I hope munchkin feels better soon


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## AmyS

Thread on 2nd page = everyone's baby sleeping wonderfully??

Miss Vintage - Awesome news on the self settling!

Hope everyone else is doing okay!

We had a good night, but Chloe did wake up at 9:45pm. She was kind of having a temper tantrum, so I went in to see what was wrong and realized I had left her bedroom light on!! It's on a dimmer switch, so it was turned all the way down, but I don't usually switch it off until I check on her right before I go to bed. I forgot! She seemed so mad about it!


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## mellyboo

Seriously struggling with our afternoon nap since little miss decided to only wake up 2 times a night on avg now.


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## detterose

I don't want to speak too soon but the last 2 nights have been good. Last night he slept from 7-5.30 without waking and the night before 6 til 11 then 11.30 til 6.30. He is still only half finishing his bottles though.


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## AmyS

mellyboo said:


> Seriously struggling with our afternoon nap since little miss decided to only wake up 2 times a night on avg now.

How long is her morning nap? Would it work to cap the morning nap a little shorter so that she's tired enough for the afternoon?

Two times a night is great!! I'd take that forever if it meant NO MORE REGRESSIONS!!!


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## stephie_corin

Amy, I hope you are feeling better! Sorry about the horrible night but I'm glad last night was better. Chloe is such a character! Sorry I didn't update yesterday - or did I? I'm too tired to remember! Ha! 

Polaris, how did Clara sleep after one nap? I'm so glad you had an evening to yourself! I hope you get a few more days like that!

Miss Vintage, positive update from you :) I'm glad! I hope the night wakings improve for you. 

Melly I'm struggling with naps big time! This is such a funny age! Cully takes 3 naps some days and some days I'm sure he only wants one! But he couldn't make it until bedtime so I've been doing a late cat nap.

Our nights have been odd. Some nights he seems to be doing longer stretches but it's taking a long time to get him back to sleep when he wakes. His front teeth still aren't out so I blame them! The last few days have been a return to a late morning nap and a catnap around 4/5. I don't mind the catnap because then he's not overtired for bedtime but it's so hard to get him down for it and it pushes bedtime so late! Yesterday he was awake for over 12 hours and he still woke every 30/45 minutes between 845-11 and tried to crawl around the bed. It's like he isn't tired enough... I'm tempted to skip the cat nap and do an early bedtime but I'm worried he will wake at 5am ... No clue what to do. I can't get him to take the cat nap earlier, even with rocking.

SE, Kita, Bababas? How's things? X


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## polaris

Stephie, all our nights are kind of blending in to a haze for me at the moment so I'm not actually sure how she slept on the one nap day! I think it was probably just a normal enough night.

Clara's sleep has gone back to being awful again. She is waking up a lot and seeming quite distressed when she wakes. I'm thinking maybe teething again but I can't see any signs of another tooth so who knows? I didn't give pain relief because she had so much over the last couple of weeks with the viral infection but maybe I will give it tonight if she is the same. 

Feeling very tired this morning but actually I think I am just at a point of acceptance with her sleep. I know she will sleep better eventually but I don't think there's anything more that I can do with her schedule/routine to speed up that process. Anyway she is so bad with teething that I really don't think her sleep will improve until that settles down. It actually feels quite good to be totally just waiting it out rather than trying to improve things in some way.

Sorry for not replying to other posts.


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## stephie_corin

Polaris, I'm sorry you are having a return to rough nights. You're right, things will get better. You are a wonderful mother and one day soon she'll sleep through and you won't even know yourself :) ok, maybe she won't sleep through, but she will give you more than 45 minutes of sleep! I think we've had a 2 hour stretch a few nights in a row now after midnight and I do feel better rested. 

I'm crossing every finger that she stops teething soon!


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## mellyboo

stephie_corin said:


> Amy, I hope you are feeling better! Sorry about the horrible night but I'm glad last night was better. Chloe is such a character! Sorry I didn't update yesterday - or did I? I'm too tired to remember! Ha!
> 
> Polaris, how did Clara sleep after one nap? I'm so glad you had an evening to yourself! I hope you get a few more days like that!
> 
> Miss Vintage, positive update from you :) I'm glad! I hope the night wakings improve for you.
> 
> Melly I'm struggling with naps big time! This is such a funny age! Cully takes 3 naps some days and some days I'm sure he only wants one! But he couldn't make it until bedtime so I've been doing a late cat nap.
> 
> Our nights have been odd. Some nights he seems to be doing longer stretches but it's taking a long time to get him back to sleep when he wakes. His front teeth still aren't out so I blame them! The last few days have been a return to a late morning nap and a catnap around 4/5. I don't mind the catnap because then he's not overtired for bedtime but it's so hard to get him down for it and it pushes bedtime so late! Yesterday he was awake for over 12 hours and he still woke every 30/45 minutes between 845-11 and tried to crawl around the bed. It's like he isn't tired enough... I'm tempted to skip the cat nap and do an early bedtime but I'm worried he will wake at 5am ... No clue what to do. I can't get him to take the cat nap earlier, even with rocking.
> 
> SE, Kita, Bababas? How's things? X

Its odd really... why she's doing that i have no idea why we are on the same old routine... She wakes up less when she only has one nap too.. She's a mystery ;)! a lovely one though :)


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## AmyS

Polaris - It does feel good to accept "wio", rather than trying to fix whatever's going on! I think once her teething problems are gone, she'll get back to ss, and you'll get some better sleep!

Stephie - How long is Cully's morning nap? I understand your dilemma, if he doesn't seem tired, but can't really go without that cat nap. What time do you think you'd have to put him to bed by if he skipped the afternoon nap? He might surprise you and sleep past 5am if he's only taking one nap per day - they have to get their total hours in somewhere! I know it has to be frustrating, but it does sound really cute that he wakes up and starts crawling around the bed! 
________________
Chloe had a better day at daycare yesterday - they are consistently trying to put her down, and she did take a couple of short crib naps. I washed her new crib sheets yesterday and brought one in this morning, so I hope that helps some!

On a non-sleep related note: she has a new noise that she likes to make! And it sounds like she is choking!!! I hate it!!! Why do they have to make crazy noises?? When she was 6 months old, she started making one that sounds like she's gasping for breath. We thought she might have asthma or something, but nope, it's just a sound that she likes to make.


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## Miss Vintage

Amy, my son does the gasping for breath noise, scared the crap out of me the first time I heard it!


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## AmyS

Miss Vintage said:


> Amy, my son does the gasping for breath noise, scared the crap out of me the first time I heard it!

I almost made a trip to the emergency room, but then we realized that she only did it when she's happy. I tell her, "Mommy doesn't like that noise," but she doesn't listen to me! :haha:


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## stephie_corin

Amy, when he takes the late am nap, he usually takes 1-1.5 hours; so not really enough to get through to the evening. He wakes by 12 noon and I think 6 hours would be a nightmare - he'd stay awake that long I think but would be so overtired and wired. It would also be only 9.5 hours awake time and he seems to sleep better when he's been awake at least 10.5 hours. I could always try it one day and see!? I might be completely wrong!

Speaking of noises - Cully does a fake cough when we aren't paying him attention. It's really funny! I'm trying not to laugh though as it makes him do it even more! Miss Vintage, so funny your boy does the gasping too! Babies are weird! 

I'm so happy for you that Chloe got some sleep! I hope the sheets make a difference too!

Melly, maybe they are in the early stages of a nap transition? It could still take many months but it might be the first sign they a need less day sleep?


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## gaiagirl

Hey ladies, I hear you all on all the struggles. We have a bit of everything going on so I can relate to them all! Haha!

Stephie we only do 2 naps now, I can't bring myself to ever go back to 3! That's way too much of my day being spent on nursing to sleep! 

We generally do 2-3-4 although sometimes 2-3.5-4.5 because he really doesn't seem to need that much sleep! 

I seriously suspect molars, last night was a CLASSIC teething evening. Wouldn't unlatch and if I ever got him unlatched he was up within minutes of me sneaking away. No fun. I remember those days well and I'm scared we are headed back there!

Hopefully it was just an off night though...

I'm so glad to hear you ladies say that embracing WIO has helped, honestly I tried everything (except sleep training lol) and the only thing that helped our family was acceptance and a total rehaul of expectation. 

One day ladies...onnnnne day.


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## lysh

Was trying to catch up on the posts in the 6 minutes I am allowing myself to sit down while LO finishes up the 1st half of her nap (I give 3 more minutes now and then she will be awake screaming to nurse so she can sleep in my arms for another hour!!!) lol It is hard typing while holding her, which is why I never get to post as often as I would like. 

Polaris- With naps I am at a point where I am WIO. The only thing I am being firm with, is that for the 1st half of her nap she must go in her crib. I am done trying CIO or CC with her (does not work and I can't take the stress of it) so I stay, pat her belly and rub her cheek while singing Hush Little Baby. I go by how many times I have to sing that song. 3 days ago I had to sing it 10 times. Yesterday 5 times, today 3 times! lol I at least need the 30-45 minute break.

AmyS- I have a hard time with the crazy noises that my daughter sometimes comes up with! She use to do this cough/choking noise....made my heart stop every time!!!

Stephie- Yikes, hope you get longer stretches soon! Those 2 hour stretches were a killer.

Gaiaigirl- Yes, sometimes acceptance is best!

Well, so far she has napped for 46 minutes without a wake-up! lol It is the small things! :) I love holding my little girl and snuggling, but a break to myself is nice. Now that I have been sitting on the couch for 7 minutes, I feel like I should get something else done!


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## seaweed eater

Sorry I still haven't come back to respond to everyone. Daycare has been closed the past two days AND I'm trying to finish a project at work, so I've been scrambling to work whenever I get time to myself.

Munchkin's still sick but this one hasn't been that bad so far in terms of nighttime sleep, touch wood. I do think it might be time to try one nap at home -- a few days this week he's gone down for his first nap but not seemed especially tired beforehand and his nap has only been about 35 minutes. BUT!!! the day has finally come, he can get all the way to standing from lying down now...so I know that's going to mess things up for a week or two. :shock: And DH is sick too, and I'm feeling a little sniffly myself, so I don't think we're done all being sick yet!

Will catch up later, hugs and good sleep vibes all around!!


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## gaiagirl

Awwwww Hugs SE! We have lucked out in our house this year and in hoping avoiding daycare until the new year will mean we are ok this fall too. I HATE being sick, I'm such a baby! 

Working in schools though, I'm sure ill get my share in the winter...


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## lysh

Hope you and your family feel better SE!


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## detterose

Sorry to hear seaweed. Sending some healthy vibes xxx


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## stephie_corin

Gaia, you were the first one to tell me that WIO is a an actual option - thank you :) I'm sorry you guys are having tough nights again. I'm in shock that F is getting his molars - I so badly wish we were further progressed with teething!

Lysh, I love that you count how many times you had to sing to her to measure nap success ... That's so cute :) would you believe 2 hours is actually a good stretch for us? Yawn! I can't believe you took 7 whole minutes to yourself ;)

SE, I'm so so sorry that you are poorly and busy at work! I hope you are all on the mend soon. Well done to Munchkin on the pulling up to standing from lying down :) that should make bedtime fun!

We had a horrible night. He cried on and off from 1-3 and then 5-7. I meant to give him pain relief but I was so tired that it went from my mind. It looks like one tooth has almost cut through so hopefully this will be behind us soon!


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## stephie_corin

It's 5pm and Cully has just STARTED his second nap. Ha! Naps are out of control at present!


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## seaweed eater

Whoa, TWO MOTNs is just too much for anyone to bear. Poor both of you. Hope tonight is much much better :hugs: :hugs:


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## AmyS

SE - Hope Munchkin is feeling better, as well as you and hubby! 

Stephie - I often forget about giving pain relief during the night too! So glad that a tooth has broken through! Hopefully Cully gets some time away from the teething monster now.


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## gaiagirl

Stephie that's intense! I hope tonight is better! It would be difficult for it to be worse...

I guess it's good we are ahead with teeth?!? It's been rough though. And as much as I suspect molars...it could very well be that I don't actually SEE them until the fall...


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## detterose

Well we had a busy day today and LO passed out without a fight tonight for bed. Fingers crossed this is a good sign as we had a hoooorrrriiibbblllee night last night.

Seaweed, how is the family? My OH has come down with a cold as well! Hope we dont catch it :(


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## detterose

Spoke too soon.... Woke up exactly 2.5hrs from when he went down :(


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## stephie_corin

Detterose, sorry he is up again :( I hope he falls asleep quickly.

We have one front tooth! I'm seriously praying to the tooth gods that the second one come relatively quickly ... The last few days have been so bad, poor baby.
How is everyone?


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## gaiagirl

Detterose, if my LO wakes up 2.5 hours after bedtime I am SO happy, haha. I know that doesn't help you, but just for perspective and to know you aren't alone:

7:15 bedtime (took 30 min to leave)
8:45 awake (10 min to get away)
9:45 awake (15 min to get away)
10:45 awake (took him to bed with me)
12:30 awake (quickly latched on and back to sleep)
3 awake (45min party! Arg)
7 awake (latched on)
8 up for the day

Sooooo that's one of our not so great nights, but it's not abnormal for us. The 45min awake is unusual for him, but 4-6 wakeups is really pretty common over here!


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## bababas

gaiagirl said:


> Detterose, if my LO wakes up 2.5 hours after bedtime I am SO happy, haha. I know that doesn't help you, but just for perspective and to know you aren't alone:
> 
> 7:15 bedtime (took 30 min to leave)
> 8:45 awake (10 min to get away)
> 9:45 awake (15 min to get away)
> 10:45 awake (took him to bed with me)
> 12:30 awake (quickly latched on and back to sleep)
> 3 awake (45min party! Arg)
> 7 awake (latched on)
> 8 up for the day
> 
> Sooooo that's one of our not so great nights, but it's not abnormal for us. The 45min awake is unusual for him, but 4-6 wakeups is really pretty common over here!

oh thats tough!

Hope it gets better for you two soon and Detterose.

Aron sometimes has this thing were he wakes up 1 hour after his down time. but we had been clean for that for a week.


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## bababas

hello girls. sorry that I have been gone so long. I am back now. It was difficult to post anything while OH and ds1 have been in vacation. It is was easier in the sense that Aron is more calm and not so bored when they are around. and OH can do all the diaper changing. But if i had free time either Aron or Ívar needed attention or had to clean up the mess of 3 men in the house :haha:

Im scared tomorrow when OH goes back to work and Ívar back to nursery. He will go to up a grade now. Aron will be bored to death at home with me. Not sure if I can pick up Ívar earlier since Aron changed to 2 naps some days.

So an update here.

If Aron wakes one hour after down time it is enough to give him just the pacifier.

Now he sleeps in his bed for the first stretch. :happydance: good that he allows this now, since I am scared he might fall from my bed. (I moved back to my room, we were at Arons room on the matress but I couldnt sleep well there, Ívar is beside that room and I hear him in his sleep, Aron was enough for me)

Last night was bad. I myself seem to be having a hard time to fall asleep. By the time I am asleep Aron wakes for BF.

He had 2 days of 2 naps. Yesterday the third late nap backfired and the night last night was bad.(so my brain is a bit off today) Hope tonight is better with the two naps.

He wakes usually 23:30, 00:30 if lucky 01:30 for his first feed. If lucky 3 times. 
Then too many comfort sucks, not even feeds about after 5am. so annoying. 

He finally takes the bottle so I am wondering if I should give him a bottle before night time from now on. Then OH can maybe help putting him to bed. BUT he is used to BF to sleep. So i tried the bottle before the 2nd nap. and hold him to sleep he freaked out, wanted boobie. So I gave in, trying not to change it that sudden. I am wondering to try bottle for a week and also boobie if he wants and then just see how it goes. what you think?


----------



## bababas

ps but then again Aron is in wonderweek 26 now :dohh:


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## polaris

gaiagirl said:


> Detterose, if my LO wakes up 2.5 hours after bedtime I am SO happy, haha. I know that doesn't help you, but just for perspective and to know you aren't alone:
> 
> 7:15 bedtime (took 30 min to leave)
> 8:45 awake (10 min to get away)
> 9:45 awake (15 min to get away)
> 10:45 awake (took him to bed with me)
> 12:30 awake (quickly latched on and back to sleep)
> 3 awake (45min party! Arg)
> 7 awake (latched on)
> 8 up for the day
> 
> Sooooo that's one of our not so great nights, but it's not abnormal for us. The 45min awake is unusual for him, but 4-6 wakeups is really pretty common over here!

Gaia, that sounds very similar to our nights except that Clara is actually now finally doing a 2+ hour stretch before her first waking, YAY!! 
A fairly typical night for us would be 
8(ish) bedtime (could take 30-45 minutes to get away)
10.30 awake (10 minute feed)
11.00 awake again (will keep waking every 20 mins or so until I go to bed with her)
11.45 awake (comfort suck to sleep)
12.30 awake (repeat above)
2.30 awake (repeat above)
5.30 awake (10 minute feed)
7/7.30 usually have to wake her to start the day as she seems to sleep best when it's time to get up. :dohh:
On a bad night we could have a MOTN party thrown in there too. 

This is why I have stopped keeping track of how many times she wakes!


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## bababas

thats a lot of work polaris. Aron does not wake that often. but I too dont bother to check anymore when he wakes. i just do it ones a week to check if i am imagining things.

like this week when i checked it was only 3 times he woke up. but that was a good day :haha: just a coincidence. i think mostly it is 4-5. and lately he just sucks ones. i think he is just dreaming and i want to shut him up :haha: and since we co sleep i just turn over.


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## gaiagirl

Yah, lots of times this summer our evenings have only been one or two wakeups before my bedtime, but last night was rougher. 

Ladies...I have a clogged duct!!!!! I have never had ANY issues BFing and never had this before. What do I do?!?!?


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## polaris

gaiagirl said:


> Yah, lots of times this summer our evenings have only been one or two wakeups before my bedtime, but last night was rougher.
> 
> Ladies...I have a clogged duct!!!!! I have never had ANY issues BFing and never had this before. What do I do?!?!?

I had one when Clara was younger, never had it with Thomas. I was able to clear it by a combination of frequent feeding, pumping, and a bit of massage/manual expression in the shower. You can also try feeding in different positions and massaging the boob while you feed/pump. It should be OK but my understanding is that you need to tackle it quite aggressively to avoid any danger of mastitis.


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## polaris

bababas said:


> thats a lot of work polaris. Aron does not wake that often. but I too dont bother to check anymore when he wakes. i just do it ones a week to check if i am imagining things.
> 
> like this week when i checked it was only 3 times he woke up. but that was a good day :haha: just a coincidence. i think mostly it is 4-5. and lately he just sucks ones. i think he is just dreaming and i want to shut him up :haha: and since we co sleep i just turn over.

Co-sleeping has totally saved my life! Unless she is teething/ill, most wakings can be dealt with very quickly without me having to fully wake up. 

I do think Clara is just not a good sleeper to be honest. If anyone had told me she would still be waking this often at a year old I would not have believed them!


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## bababas

gaiagirl said:


> Yah, lots of times this summer our evenings have only been one or two wakeups before my bedtime, but last night was rougher.
> 
> Ladies...I have a clogged duct!!!!! I have never had ANY issues BFing and never had this before. What do I do?!?!?

i massaged it in hot shower. and took pain killers. oh and tried to suck it out with a siringe. i cut the front part off. sucked, then some white sticky thing came out. dont know though if that did the job. it mostly cleared after 2 days. i got it so many times i got used to it at 2-4 month of aron.


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## seaweed eater

bababas said:


> gaiagirl said:
> 
> 
> Yah, lots of times this summer our evenings have only been one or two wakeups before my bedtime, but last night was rougher.
> 
> Ladies...I have a clogged duct!!!!! I have never had ANY issues BFing and never had this before. What do I do?!?!?
> 
> i massaged it in hot shower. and took pain killers. oh and tried to suck it out with a siringe. i cut the front part off. sucked, then some white sticky thing came out. dont know though if that did the job. it mostly cleared after 2 days. i got it so many times i got used to it at 2-4 month of aron.Click to expand...

Whoa...cut it off? Are you talking about a milk blister? A clogged duct can be a lot farther in...it would hurt a lot to cut that off! :p

Gaia, hot showers and massaging and frequent feeding...they don't have to be a big deal, I had one early on and it resolved pretty quickly with the above and hasn't come back. How strange that you got one though. You don't pump much, do you?

Back soon to catch up...things are crazy over here...not sure if it's the 11-month thing everyone talks about but Munchkin is definitely trying to drop to one nap.


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## bababas

no no :haha: i mean cut the front of the siringe off. so i can suck the clogged thing out.

my night is starting .... great. he woke up after one hour and didnt want his pacifier, so he got boob. *sigh... but could be worse.... so im ok.


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## bababas

seaweed eater said:


> Back soon to catch up...things are crazy over here...not sure if it's the 11-month thing everyone talks about but Munchkin is definitely trying to drop to one nap.

:hugs: when ívar dropped to one i was walking outside for hours trying to make him sleep his 2nd nap! i think after 2 weeks i had enough lol.


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## detterose

Stephie, yay for the tooth! I hope Hunters top teeth hurry up and cut through. They are giving him such a hard time.

Gaia, sorry things are so rough. Hunter wakes up to 8 times a night as well, it's only the first 2-3 hours of the night that he has the long stretch, after that it's all over the joint. Super exhausting. Has to get better at some point right? :(

Bababas, ohhh WW26. Please dont mention that LOL. It is tough. Hopefully yours goes alot quicker then ours. As for the clogged duct, its best to deal with it fast. I had severe case of mastitis. I needed antibiotic injections every day for over a week. It was worse then labour to be honest! Hope it gets better soon.


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## gaiagirl

Interesting thought on the syringe...I have tried everything else and so far no luck...

There is a large lump, several inches actually, that is swollen and tender and its making my nipple sore too. Or maybe from F biting, or me trying to express and massage...ugh either way it sucks.

I think it is likely because i nursed on this side more while waiting for the bite to heal, then went back to normal and nursed less on this side again...


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## lysh

gaiagirl- I had two clogged ducts....hot shower, massage, nurse more on that side, and if you have a warm compress (heating pad) use that too! Good luck!

SE- My girl sometimes does one nap...I think she really could use two, but she typically refuses to let me put her down for her 1st nap, so she just wakes up. I usually just let her stay awake and try again for the afternoon nap. By then she is so tired it is usually not as big of a struggle.

I did not get a chance to read all the recent posts, hope everyone is getting decent sleep!!!

We were supposed to go to the drive-in tonight as a birthday treat(my b-day is tomorrow and my mom is spending the night) after I put dd to bed, but she woke up crying at 4. We let her fuss/cry for a little bit and she fell back asleep for just a little longer and was up at 5. We refuse to get back into the 'wake up at 4am' habit. Of course, DH and I were stressed so we did not sleep much. So we are too tired. Naps did not go well today....she only slept for 30 minutes in her crib and then the rest was on me....however, I only had to sing Hush Little Baby once! :haha:


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## gaiagirl

It was a milk blister! Crisis averted!

Not pleasant but much better than other options :)

Lysh sorry your LO didn't cooperate, I swear they know when we are excited for something...I hope you bday is great and baby treats you to a sleep in :)


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## stephie_corin

gaiagirl said:


> Yah, lots of times this summer our evenings have only been one or two wakeups before my bedtime, but last night was rougher.
> 
> Ladies...I have a clogged duct!!!!! I have never had ANY issues BFing and never had this before. What do I do?!?!?

I second what Polaris says. I'd also avoid lying down feeding on that side until it feels better. I've had this 2 or 3 times now and it's cleared within 24/48 hours. I hope it you feel better soon!


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## stephie_corin

Oh sorry just saw it was a milk blister - glad to hear :)


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## seaweed eater

2 naps today, now it's 9:40 and he's awake and showing no signs of slowing down... :shock:


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## bababas

lysh - man 4 am :wacko: thats tough! :hugs:

gaiagirl - hope you feel better now.

SE - mmm havent read the other posts, have you tried only one nap already?


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## bababas

update here :sleep: gonna post and take a nap :dohh:

8:30pm down
9:30pm wanted breast for one minute continued sleeping
11:30pm BF, prolly woke him, i crawled into bed just lied down, then he rolled over to me so he totally sticked on me and continued sleeping for one hour. i was stiff as a board.
0:30 or 1:30 or both dont remember BF
3:00 BF

he woke up 6am :wacko: which is very RARE! i tried to continue sleeping. managed to make him sleep 10mins... we went out of bed 7:20


so .... HELP.... he woke from his last nap 5:10pm is that too late? my book says he should be awake 4-4.5hrs before bed time? he doesnt seem that sleepy at bedtime but falls asleep anyway when breastfed. so i wonder if i should have him 4-4.5hrs. he only slept 2 naps yesterday. but the first was very late. he refused to fall asleep. so maybe that fckd the whole day up. i dont know. :wacko:

or should i try 2.5hr between naps. or 2.5 then 3? aaaa this transition is making me stupid and all so difficult coz today he woke 6. and usually he wakes 8. then 2 naps fit. but if he wakes 8 the first nap is hard after 2.5hrs.


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## bababas

ps he got 2 teeth since i was away. i think some other is coming. just cant see it.


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## stephie_corin

SE - oh no! That is how our evenings have been shaping up! I hope he falls asleep soon for you! Did you encourage the two naps or was he tired?

Detterose - the front teeth were agony for us, I hope Hunter's come through soon. Things will definitely get better but it might be a few months still before things improve. Cully is still waking 10-100 times a night but there are definite glimmers of hope.

Lysh - happy birthday for tomorrow! I'm sorry you didn't make the movies. It's hard when plans get cancelled because of poor sleep :( hopefully your actual birthday is wonderful and you are spoilt with a lovely long nap and a good night of sleep!

Bababas! Glad to have you back! One thing this whole sleep debacle has taught me is that it's well worth experimenting with different wake times and seeing how this affects sleep. If you are switching to 2 naps I'd try to stretch the first awake time as long as possible before be gets cranky. It is difficult when the morning waketime changes... Do you have a preferred bedtime for him? I'd work backwards from there using a 2-3-4 routine as a base (or 2.5, 3.5, 4.5 etc., whatever wake times suit him best) and possibly try waking him at a similar time if he sleeps late to try and establish a routine? 

Polaris - it's almost Clara's birthday I see! Are you guys doing anything special? We keep changing our minds about whether to throw a party.

Amy - how are naps for you guys?

Gaia - hope you are feeling all better!!

Well, Mr 'three nap' Cully took one nap today. He woke at 6 and wouldn't fall asleep until 11am. He slept until close to 1pm and I tried to nap him every 30 minutes between 3.30-5 but he wasn't interested. He finally showed sleepy signs at 530 but rather than nap at that time I did a quick bath and he fell asleep at 6.15pm.

I'm nervous about what tonight will bring and whether he will wake up really really early. Do you think I did the right thing? Should I have napped him at 530pm? I have to say, honestly, it's the easiest bedtime we've had for ages. No rocking, just feed and sleep. I can't help but feel I'm doing the wrong thing because he isn't 'meant' to take one nap for at least a few months.

We are still very much GWTF so I'm sure tomorrow will be different!

Oh, I do have a positive update; I managed to feed him lying down a few times last night and he fell asleep!!! No rocking or picking up!

Edit - he just woke after 15 minutes crying so I gently rocked him back to sleep. Over-tiredness probably...

Edit again - he keeps waking and crying when I try to put him down. We've danced this dance before! I'm guessing he'll be transferred by 7pm.


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## bababas

sorry stephie, hope he will finally fall asleep. 

well today is a 3 nap day since he woke up 1ishpm from his 2nd nap. so he is in his 3rd nap now. he will prolly wake around 4pm so i can try the 4hrs awake time. 

we had this problem... well he wouldnt BF during my OH and ds1 sumer vacation so i had to go to our room with him. where he got used to sleeping on the boob. so today i tried to get rid of that. he was a good boy. took the breast on the lazy boy. then i rocked him a bit with the pacifier and then placed him in his bed. i was quiet amazed, thought he would go bananas.


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## AmyS

Gaia - Hope your feeling better now!

bababas - I remember wonder week 26 - it was not a fun time! I usually try to have the last nap end at 4pm or 4:30pm. Sometimes that doesn't work if she had crap naps for the day, but if she goes any later, then it messes with bedtime! One schedule to try that has worked for many is 2/3/4 between naps. That really never worked for us, but it's a place to start! (And now I just scrolled down a little and see Stephie suggest the same! I always do that, haha!) 

SE - What time did he finally get to bed last night?? That's late! Sounds like switching to one nap is another horrible time to look forward to! Yippee! Is he still only doing 1 nap at daycare?

Stephie - Regarding your one nap day: that's what usually happens with us when she naps too early or not enough at daycare. I would have done the same thing - early bedtime rather than late nap, though I have let her nap from 5-5:30 before. It will be interesting to see how the rest of your night goes!
_____________

Not sure if I already said this, but naps at daycare on Friday were a lot better! Not very long, but she did sleep in her crib twice. They said she cried/fussed for about 5-10 minutes the first nap, and less than 5 minutes for the second nap. Progress!

At home, she ended up taking a couple of naps in her stroller - once because I ruined her first nap by coughing, and then the next day she wouldn't fall asleep on the bottle, so we went for a long walk! I did get her down in her crib once, and she woke up and settled back down pretty quickly, but then she woke up completely about 2 minutes later! I'm sure daycare will be a challenge again today since she was home for the weekend, but you never know!


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## gaiagirl

SE - ohhhhh I have soooo been there. I always end up PIO (playing it out ;)) because I get too frustrated otherwise. Hope he fell asleep soon after!

Bababas - I agree with Stephie, think of what bedtime you would like and work backwards. I like my LO in bed about 7:30, so I try to make sure he is awake from his second nap by 3/3:30. First nap is usually 2-2.5 hours after waking and then second nap is 3.5 hours after that. To be honest, 4.5 hours awake before bed seems long for a 6 month old, but if he seems fine with that then go for it!

Amy - That's great about the naps, hopefully she figures out how to start napping well at daycare and this whole chapter is behind you!

Stephie - we had a one nap day yesterday too, it happens often if I can get F to sleep in on weekends. He slept until 8 on Sunday so by 10:30 was not willing to nap and I just pushed it to 12:30 and he did 2 hours. Then bed at 7. Worked out just fine, but normally he DEFINITELY still needs 2. Just some random days he doesn't.

AFM - feeling better for sure, still a bit sore and tender from all the manhandling lol. But otherwise fine.

DH and I woke up several times last night to find F all over the bed. He was up at the top, then snuggled up to DH, then at one point head down near DHs knees...I'm not liking this new habit of moving constantly in his sleep. Not only do we get crappy sleep but I worry its not safe...not sure what to do. I guess keeping him between me and the bedrail might be best. And maybe we have no choice but to lower our mattress for the time being.


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## stephie_corin

Thanks Gaia, thanks Amy! I'm reassured that you guys have one nap days too... I guess my concern comes from the fact this seems to be a trend over the last week (late am nap and a cat nap in the late pm) even under ideal napping conditions. I guess it is what it is, and if he does drop to one nap by himself then it's not a big deal :)

Amy, I'm so glad she took some naps at daycare! That's definite progress! I hope this week goes well!

Gaia, wonderful news that you are feeling better. Sorry that you guys are thinking of putting your bed on the floor - I know you weren't keen to do that. It definitely sounds like the sensible option though, what with his bed gymnastics!


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## seaweed eater

Whew, finally a few moments to myself! Prior to today we had one daycare day out of the last 10. So exhausting, and that was with another adult around most of the time. Lots of hugs to you SAHMs :hugs: :hugs:

Polaris, I'm so sorry you are having awful sleep again :hugs: man, with the self-settling I really thought you were going to start seeing some longer stretches. Glad to hear WIO is suiting you well though. :thumbup: And glad you are having a longer first stretch! Hope that continues!!

Amy, I'm glad Chloe did better at daycare last week. Two naps in her crib with 5-10 min of fussing sounds REALLY good. :happydance: Please let us know how today goes. Sorry to hear about the gasping noise, Munchkin has a few funny noises of his own. Babies are silly!

Gaia, hope your milk blister's better today! Sorry it looks like teething again :hugs: hang in there!

Lysh, happy birthday!! :cake: Glad WIO is working well for you, I think it's helpful to realize when CC/CIO is no longer an option you are willing to take. :hugs: I'm sorry about the tiring night and the early waking. That 4 AM is really tough, so tiring and also so tricky to get rid of! I think you are right to nip it in the bud, really. I hope it goes away for good!!

Stephie, so glad that tooth is finally out, hope the other one follows tomorrow!!! :hugs: :hugs: And that much better sleep is on its way. Hope he has settled since your last update and you get a longer stretch tonight.

Detterose, I hope last night went better :hugs: 8 wakings a night is really tough, hope you are able to get some rest during the day. I hope your OH is better, too, and none of you have caught the cold. There's a lot going around where I live at the moment, and this time we collectively seem to have caught all of it.

Bababas, I hope Ivar does well with his transition in nursery :hugs: hope you and Aron find something fun to do outside the house! Boo to the 3-2 nap transition though, I know you've been dreading it and I'm sorry it's finally here. I hope it goes more easily than you fear. :hugs: I hope the nights improve too. It seems that finishing the transition to 2 naps goes along with better nights for some people. I hope that's you guys! What did you end up doing about the late nap? In the future I would wake him early if he needs to nap that late so that he can go down at his usual bedtime, but if he already finished the nap I'd put him down as soon as he seems sleepy even if it's later than usual. :shrug:

Regarding whether to try the bottle, I don't think it would hurt to try it for a week. I do think you'd have to be careful if you want to also keep BF an option. You don't want to encourage him to refuse the bottle by teaching him that if he just keeps complaining he will eventually get to nurse. Know what I mean? So i think if you try the bottle it will be important to find some other way to calm him before you let him nurse, so that he doesn't think the crying is what got you to nurse him.

AFU -- we are kind of back to WIO/GWTF mode...:shrug: I really hate that we keep switching. I don't want it to be confusing for Munchkin but I'm trying to be responsive. His sleep varies so much and seems so sensitive. He will sleep perfectly for a couple weeks and then all of a sudden starts screaming at bedtime and waking up 4x a night again. I just can't bring myself to continue ST in those situations, but the result is that we end up flip-flopping and that doesn't seem good either! I really don't know what to do!!

Thurs and Fri: pretty good days, 2 naps with short first nap, not that tired going down for either one, a little trouble at bedtime but ok through the night.

Saturday: refused his morning nap, so he had only one nap. It seemed to go well. He went down very easily at 12:30 and slept until 2:15. Then I tried for a 6:45-7 bedtime, but he ended up asleep at 9:15. So I figured he'd gotten overtired and the one nap was a bad idea.

Sunday: up at 5:15 :sleep: very short first nap, fought his second nap so eventually I took him in the car. He didn't wake up on his own so I woke him at 3:15. Put him down at 7:30 with great effort, and he slept for 8 whole minutes and then was awake until just after 10. He could easily have gone for longer.

I feel like walking is the new teething in our house, but I really think it's walking. He's sooooo close. And he just seems very, very, very EXCITED. In general he's gone through an enormous developmental spurt the past few weeks so I can't say I blame him.

Last night after I gave up on trying to force him back to sleep and let him play, he literally ran in circles around the house holding one of my hands and roaring (favorite new animal sound). I had to laugh.

I'm really feeling lost as to what my approach should be to his sleep. ST has been so helpful to him at some times but so horribly wrong at other times. DH pointed out yesterday that it doesn't really seem like a self-settling problem anymore, because he goes to sleep effortlessly and stays asleep well when he's tired. It's just that sometimes he doesn't WANT to sleep and it's basically impossible to force him. But then he doesn't get the sleep he needs. Last night + today will probably end up being around 9 hours total. That is really not good. But as DH said, if it really is developmental, it may go away on its own? And either way there doesn't seem to be much we can do. :shrug:


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## stephie_corin

SE, I agree with your DH 100%! I would totally WIO in the circumstances and I think if you keep paying attention to Munchkin's cues his sleep should sort itself out. And for what it's worth, almost every mum I have spoken to says that walking improves night sleep. I'd maybe stick to one nap if you can - a regular routine might help him sleep better.

Congratulations to you guys on the almost walking :)


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## AmyS

seaweed eater said:


> Last night after I gave up on trying to force him back to sleep and let him play, he literally ran in circles around the house holding one of my hands and roaring (favorite new animal sound). I had to laugh.
> 
> I'm really feeling lost as to what my approach should be to his sleep. ST has been so helpful to him at some times but so horribly wrong at other times. DH pointed out yesterday that it doesn't really seem like a self-settling problem anymore, because he goes to sleep effortlessly and stays asleep well when he's tired. It's just that sometimes he doesn't WANT to sleep and it's basically impossible to force him. But then he doesn't get the sleep he needs. Last night + today will probably end up being around 9 hours total. That is really not good. But as DH said, if it really is developmental, it may go away on its own? And either way there doesn't seem to be much we can do. :shrug:

That is SO CUTE!!! Roaring!! I love it!!

This is my opinion on the approach - you and your hubby agree that he knows how to self settle, so your sleep training has taught him that. I honestly don't think that he will forget that in the midst of what's going on now. Especially if you give him opportunity to ss during the night when/if he wakes up. It really does sound developmental to me! He is learning so much, so quickly! I think the WIO approach applies here - he will pass this phase soon, and then you can get back to normal. 

To me, it doesn't sound like you're back to square one at all! And, I don't think that going back and forth between sleep training and wio is bad either. As we all know, sleep changes so much for them - I think that as parents, we need to be flexible. I have thought many times that I might be regressing with Chloe when she is going through difficult times developmentally, but she proves me wrong every time! When things calm down, she is back to what is normal for us now. 

I am always so impressed by how you've taught Munchkin - I think you're doing a fabulous job!


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## seaweed eater

Thank you both! It's just so important to me to be consistent -- I hate the thought that the unpredictability might be scary to him. But neither of the consistent alternatives really seems good. :shrug:

And Stephie, lesson learned, definitely will be doing one nap from now on!


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## polaris

I'm really hopeful that walking is going to have a positive impact on our nighttime sleep!! No improvement yet but maybe we are still in the disrupted sleep phase? Clara is definitely a toddler now, she is walking more and more each day - I went out and got her her first proper pair of shoes on Saturday. Can't believe she is getting so grown up.

SE - Clara totally gets like Munchkin with developmental milestones, I just go with it and let her get up/stay up to practice her skills when it seems necessary. I personally think it's more important to be responsive than consistent. I know obviously consistency is important but flexibility is equally important. Consistency without flexibility could easily become way too authoritarian in my opinion. So I think your approach is spot on.


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## bababas

SE i also agree with you DH. and congrats with the walking coming along. hope it will come to you that the walking will improve the sleeping.

so for tonight I gave Aron his first night bottle. it was no problem, then pacifier, laid him down in his bed and then he slept :wacko: i dont believe it. hope he wont wake up for boobie after one hour coz i wrote that here. :dohh: im sleepy lol.


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## bababas

I agree with polaris.

and congratulations on the new shoes! :happydance:


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## NotNic

Hi everyone. Trying to keep up with you all but I'm a little out of the loop. Please forgive me. :) It's nice to hear how many of you are WIO / GWTF though. I thought I was the sleep training rebel, but there seems to be a secret, undercover group! :haha: Don't get me wrong. I completely believe that CIO/CC works for many, and I'd be happy to let Finlay cry if we needed to, but for us it always felt too drastic an approach for his problems. Also I'm a bit too lazy and really not that good at doing set routines based on the time of day. I would be a failure at sleep training!! I can't even sleep through myself!!

Seaweed - it sounds like munchkin has Finlay traits. We used to do wear out time on the days hed be too wired, but we would give him just one or two boring toys to play with and encourage him to cruise and crawl. If he's good at ss, then perhaps you could try what we do. We have an 8pm cap on bedtime (when we're home). He can play and clamber about but by 8pm he needs to be in his cot. He has teddies, soft cubes and a hardback book in his cot and I normally let him take a toy with him if he wants. Tonight he has a truck but normally he wants his toothbrush! We then lay him down say goodnight and leave him to it. Sometimes he goes straight asleep but often he'll play and chat quietly to himself until he's ready to sleep.

Just a quick update for us: F's sleep has been pretty good at the moment. We have pretty much transitioned to just one nap a day now. As a result he tends to be ready for bed at 7.30 and is managing to sleep until 6.30am. A few 5.30s still sneak in to keep us on our toes, but so are a few past 7am to balance it out! :D He's got an extra 3 teeth over a weekend, so now had an extra 6 teeth in 5 weeks including 4 molars and 1 eye tooth. AND he's walking - phew! I need a lie down just thinking about it!!!


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## gaiagirl

Not Nic - that's great news, sounds like everything is going wonderfully!

SE - I agree with everyone, especially what Polaris said about flexibility. I think that being consistent in responding to Munchkins needs is consistent enough! You are doing an amazing job :) Don't worry about not enforcing rules, especially when there is a limited ability to communicate with them...when you can have a conversation I think it will be SO much easier to put your foot down on bedtime.


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## bababas

so Aron got a bottle (first bottle) before sleep.

but we had a bad night. :haha: i wonder if it is coz i sleep near him or co sleep

bed 8:30pm
BF 10:ishpm
BF 11:30pm
then again again, so i stopped counting, prolly 6 times by 3am

then he woke up again, but this time i just changed his diaper and went to the bathroom. he continued to sleep, fell asleep by himself for another hour then boobie again.

dont remember much, maybe 2 more BF then woke up 800am.



i wonder if it was coz i went early to bed. and he was disturbed. or it is just the 26WW.

or, well yesterday i only fed him downstairs. (he got used to feed on the bed, coz OH and ds1 were in vacation for 1 month, and he just wouldnt drink otherwise) so yesterday he was not much interested in BF, neither BF in bed. like he just wanted/was more interested in the world, maybe thats why he drank so much at night.... :cry: any idea? 
:dohh:


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## bababas

so Aron got a bottle (first bottle) before sleep.

but we had a bad night. :haha: i wonder if it is coz i sleep near him or co sleep

bed 8:30pm
BF 10:ishpm
BF 11:30pm
then again again, so i stopped counting, prolly 6 times by 3am

then he woke up again, but this time i just changed his diaper and went to the bathroom. he continued to sleep, fell asleep by himself for another hour then boobie again.

dont remember much, maybe 2 more BF then woke up 800am.



i wonder if it was coz i went early to bed. and he was disturbed. or it is just the 26WW.

or, well yesterday i only fed him downstairs. (he got used to feed on the bed, coz OH and ds1 were in vacation for 1 month, and he just wouldnt drink otherwise) so yesterday he was not much interested in BF, neither BF in bed. like he just wanted/was more interested in the world, maybe thats why he drank so much at night.... :cry: any idea? 
:dohh:


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## bababas

today drinking went well on the sofa. 

sometimes i just think i think too much, and aron is just pretty random. like he just has good days and bad days.... i will try again tonight to let him sleep alone in the room. (which i already have tried. * sigh just wont give up :haha:)

:cry:


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## AmyS

polaris - So exciting that Clara is walking now! I hope her sleep starts improving soon for you - I bet once she gets the walking down good, she'll start to sleep better.

bababas - Wow, he took the bottle good,huh? Sorry for the rest of your night though, it sounds rough! I think we were closer to 7 months old before Chloe came out of that wonder week. 

NotNic - Great update! That's a lot of teeth in one weekend though - ouch! And walking too!! How exciting for him!

Stephie - I saw you had a rough night too! So sorry! Hope you can get some sleep during naps today! Give him lots to chew on today so he can break that next tooth out. 
____________________

Daycare naps went better yesterday! Half an hour in the morning, and over an hour in the afternoon - both in her crib. My mom is watching her today though, so I'm sure she will snuggle her for all naps - hopefully it doesn't ruin daycare tomorrow! I don't mind if Mom doesn't try to put her down - I understand the need to cuddle. 

Nights are still good here - she typically needs me once a night, and the rest of the time she self soothes. I watch her on the monitor, and when she wants me, she will crawl over to the side, pull the mesh bumper down, and look around for me. When she doesn't need me, she just fusses a little and rolls around to get comfortable again. I'm very proud of her!


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## stephie_corin

Polaris, sleep has to get better for you soon! Clara's birthday tomorrow! Woohoo! I hope you guys have a fantastic day!

NotNic, I'm so glad things are going so well for you guys. That is a lot to cram into a short amount of time - I'm impressed his night sleep stayed so great! What time is he taking his one nap? Is it still in the am? You must be enjoying the 'sleep-ins' :)

Bababas, you poor thing! What a horrible night! It could be crawling or the wonder week - 6 months is such a tough age! There is so much going on, it's really hard to pinpoint exactly what is causing night wakings. Did he seem in pain, or just awake?

Amy, what an amazing update from you! Chloe is adorable. I love that you can see when she wants you. You must be feeling so happy! I'll keep my fingers crossed that being snuggled for naps today doesn't impact naps at daycare.

Well, we had another one nap day! He woke at 630am, napped from 10.30-12.50 and has just fallen asleep at... 7.45pm! That's almost 7 hours awake. And he was in good form. From 7-7.30 he was giggling and crawling around the bed looking over his shoulder waiting for me to 'catch' him and tickle him. I'm sure he could have stayed up longer but I ended up rocking him (under much protest) to sleep. 

I really hope he sleeps well tonight and his tooth stops bothering him. I told DH that I wouldn't give pain relief tonight no matter what, but I've decided if he's waking frequently again I will give him some pain relief. I'm going to go with SE's one week maximum and then I will give his body a break 'no matter what'.

I hope everyone had a lovely, sleepy night :)


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## NotNic

Still going down at 11am and having 2hrs, though a few times we've needed to go out during nap time and we've managed to hold off the nap until 1.30/2pm. He's been tired during lunch, but apart from that coped well. I think it's been a matter of timing with him. Dropping 98% of the time to one nap means he's having a longer deeper sleep night sleep which has just helped him manage. He cries in his sleep, but it wakes me not him! 

Also I have a confession, I didn't notice the teeth come through until they were there. He was grizzly, but nothing extreme. He has a new trick. When I tell him off (he's a naughty pickle) he puts his hands in his mouth, cries and pretends his teeth hurt. That week he was especially pickly and so got told off a fair bit and I didn't realise his mouth genuinely was sore. Oops - mummy fail!


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## polaris

Notnic, if they were really sore then you would definitely know about it! Thomas was like that, he was never very bothered by teething, I often would only notice the teeth when they came through. Whereas Clara honestly seems to be in agony with them for ages before they appear. Congratulations on the walking, it's exciting isn't it? 

Amy - so glad to hear that daycare naps are going so much better. You must be so relieved, that was so stressful for a bit! Also that her night time sleep is still so good, yay!

Bababas, sorry you had such a bad night. I think you are right that they do just have good days and bad days and sometimes it's not easy to find a reason. Clara doesn't nurse well during the day at all and she definitely makes up for it at night. I do wonder sometimes if I am disturbing her by co-sleeping but she tends to wake even more often than usual if I'm not there (e.g. if I stay up later than usual).

Stephie, I really hope tonight goes better than your recent nights. Can't believe he stayed up for almost 7 hours!! And was still in good form at the end of it! Thanks for the birthday wishes - it's actually not until Saturday (24th) - we are just having a small family get-together with a nice dinner and birthday cake etc. My mum is coming over from the UK so I am looking forward to having her here for the week. And then the first week in September Thomas will be starting preschool! I am excited and dreading it at the same time!


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## bababas

AmyS - your nights sound great :happydance: 

Stephie - he did not seem in pain. just the usual whining. if i give him the pacifier he screams. just whining for boob coz when he gets it he is off to sleep again. but he was rather drinking a lot, which might be to the fact that he drank so little during that day. coz i BF him on the lazy boy again since the big boys are not on vacation anymore.

NotNic - congrats to the tooth. If I remember correctly after ds1 had 4 teeth i kept less attention on it. and forgot to write down when they came :dohh:


Tonight I gave Aron a bottle again (i think i gave him too little milk seemed like he wanted more, but seems like he wants to fall asleep on it. so i gave him the pacifier he was not so happy. 2 minutes of complaining and he fell asleep. i felt bad about it though). he has been drinking well during the day today. we had 3 naps today. but a long one around 1pm, since I fell asleep too :dohh: then all in a sudden it was 3pm. but i felt so well rested sleeping alone in the other room. so he had a short catnap at 5pm. 

i think i will just go with the flow. i have realised he has good or bad days randomly. doesnt matter if i drink coffee, i have blamed the coffee, so i havent been drinking any for 6 months. :haha: then i try again, but the same night he only wakes 3 times, for example. so i feel like i am trying to find something to blame.... or something to fix it. he is just like that. he is super cute, that makes me happy :baby: just hope for a good night today and that he grows it out. prolly will go back to this thread after 1.5 years when i want a 3rd baby and scream NO haha.


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## bababas

polaris - yes i am leaning to stop thinking to much about it. there just are bad and good days. just one thing though.... i just noticed a new thing. he always seems to bang his head in his crib. and that wakes him up. maybe i can experiment one more time having him in my bed waaaaa :haha:


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## lysh

Wow...lots to read and catch up on! My birthday went well...the day itself was nice! I went for a pedicure which I have not done since being pregnant. 

gaiagirl- I agree with what you said about just being consistent right now- until our babies are verbal, it is sometimes hard to be 'strict' with things! 

bababas- Ouch....I remember nights like that. You must be exhausted!

Amy- Glad to hear the nights are going well!!! That is cute that she pulls the mesh bumper down looking for you! 

Stephie- I know it is hard to sometimes decide whether to give pain relief or not. I do sometimes give it to LO- when I notice she is having a ROUGH day (beyond normal teething pains) I give it to her. I once did not give it to her and she was up constantly and miserable. Usually I find there is only 2-3 days where she is THAT miserable....the rest is manageable.

Notnic- I do not know about your LO, but my LO barely allows me to even look in her mouth, so if my LO did not have big teething symptoms, I probably would not know either!

My girl took a 50 minute nap this morning in her crib and then another hour on me. She woke up at noon though and did not nap again! Usually her bedtime routine starts at 7:30 and she is in bed by 8....she was SO tired that we pushed it up a half hour. So it will be interesting to see if her night is really crazy (just hoping we do not have another 4am morning!) :coffee:


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## gaiagirl

Well, it's 10:40 and I finally just wrestle/pinned/nursed him into submission...

Not sure what went wrong today. Nothing out of the ordinary...he was fussy though and has really seemed teething-ish so gave Advil before bed at 7. He slept for 30 min latched on then was WIDDDDDE awake. Ahhhh, deja vu. We have been here!


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## stephie_corin

NotNic, I've got a friend in the UK with a girl a similar age to Finlay and she also takes a morning nap and dropped her afternoon nap. It's interesting! It sounds like you have a rascal on your hands :) what a cutie!

Polaris, I must stop commenting in my sleep deprived state... Clara shares a birthday with my mum :) I hope Saturday is wonderful for you guys. Enjoy spending time with your mum, too! I also couldn't believe he was awake for so long. I think WW 46 is causing the current nap craziness. 

Bababas, I'm glad you're feeling ok about sleep. I agree, it's hard not to look for something to blame when sometimes the bad sleep just is bad sleep. I've spent the last 6 months looking for something to blame but the reasons change so quickly, I think it's a mystery that I'll never solve! I'm glad you snuck in a nap!

Lysh, that's a long time for her to be awake. She did well! I'll keep my fingers crossed that the night goes really well and she sleeps until at least 6am!

Gaia, oh no!!! That's such a late bedtime. How frustrating for you. I feel irrationally robbed when I don't get some time to myself. Do you think he is napping too long in the day?

As for us, I thought we were in for a terrible night. He was awake crying at least 6 times between 7.45-11, when I came to bed. I had the pain relief ready to go but he nursed around 11.30pm and he only woke 3-4 times until 6am! And they were easy wakeups too - I managed to snuggle or feed him lying down for each waking except for 1. It was amazing! I hope we have another good night tonight! I think we are in for a bit of a wait with the second front tooth. It doesn't look like it's cutting through the gum at all.


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## NotNic

Thank you for the reassurance. Normally F is a horrific teether. He screams and wails, and his gums bled with the first two molars. The only thing I can think of, is that now he has so many teeth through the pressure has eased off so he didnt react in the usual way. He's also dropped the dummy for a lot of the time now. He has it for night sleep and naps in the cot, but not for naps on the road. Nursery have been really good at limiting it as he was using it for reassurance again. We do allow him to have it when he's ill or the teeth are bothering him, but we have a good system. 

Stephie - don't feel bad about medicating. F has had so much pain relief medicine. As long as you stick to the guidelines on dose and frequency, you will not harm him. The limits on the packets are way, way lower than levels of medicine that could cause any harm. Not allowing
your son to feel pain and giving him a chance to sleep are all good things.

Polaris - happy birthday Clara! That's gone quickly. Any plans for a third ;) 

Gaia - consider it a minor blip. Normal service will resume shortly. I think they through us a bad night just to keep us on our toes. :)

As for everyone else - sorry to hear that bad nights are kicking your behinds. Stick with it. I'm hoping F and the fact almost none of the original mamas need the thread anymore gives you some encouragement that there is a light at the end of the tunnel. Not perfection obviously, but sleep does manage to work it's way into getting somewhere near normal eventually. Big hugs xx


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## bababas

this threads birthday is soon as well :dohh: nov 11. how is noelle? anybody knows.

lysh - hope she didnt wake up too early :)

gaiagirl - so sorry for the late bedtime. could it be like something like his inner clock. now i dont know much about it. just also have some friends whose kids just wont go down until 10pm. hope though he just grows out of it.

polaris - have a great saturday!

talked to my neighbour with 5 kids. her boy has the same nights as Aron. yey, im not alone. :dohh:

about his crib. i really think he doesnt know how to sleep in his crib. he likes to move a lot. i heard it yesterday.... a big bang. he just always bangs his head on it really loud, then ofcourse wakes up and screams. so we have been trying the crib for a week now and he has been waking like 10pm earlier than usual. maybe i just try my bed tonight. see if that stretches it better. thats the last thing i am gonna try. after that i will stop wondering :haha:


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## polaris

Bababas, Clara was like that when she was sleeping in the cot, she kept rolling around and bumping her head and waking herself up. She moves around so much in her sleep. When we sleep on the futon, in the morning we are often facing completely the other direction because she moves around the bed and I follow her in my half asleep state! I did think it's one reason why she didn't sleep well in the cot but she doesn't sleep any better in the bed, so maybe not? 

We had a much much much better night last night - she slept from 8.30 p.m. until 12! and then just two or three brief wakings I think, I didn't even wake up properly for them because they were really short. We both slept in until 7.30 a.m. so she went for her first nap late at 10.30 and is still sleeping now at 11.45. I think I am just going to let her sleep and see what time she wakes up. I'm sure she will probably need a cat-nap later on.


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## lysh

Polaris- Yay for a decent night's sleep!!! My lo did that early/long nap yesterday.

bababas- I know crib bumpers are considered bad now, but what about mesh? I know they are not well padded, but maybe help a little bit? Poor baby!

NotNic- There is light at the end!! My dd wakes up early, but she typically STTN now!!! Naps are our struggle, but I would rather take on nap challenges than night challenges!

Stephie- I am impressed how positive you sound, must have still been an exhausting night for you!

gaia- dd would have these occasional weird nights too where she was hard to settle for unknown reasons. 

So baby girl slept until 5! 7:30-5 is not bad for her...9 1/2 hours is a long night for this one! So I cannot complain. However, it is 7:20am and she is catnapping in my arms which is unusual- did this twice this week.

I have an inservice for my job today, so dd is getting a transitional day with my SIL who watches her a few days a week when I am back at work- she never naps well there so curious what I am in for later.


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## polaris

It's 1 p.m. now and she is still asleep!! So maybe today will be a one nap day. I have had such a relaxing morning as OH brought Thomas swimming so I've had a few hours to myself. Got all the washing done and I finally got round to backing up all the photos on the external hard drive, yay!! Have been putting that off for ages. OK my life sounds really dull now, LOL. But these little things make a big difference sometimes.

Stephie, I forgot to comment on your post earlier. I am sooo happy for you that you had a better night, even if the early evening was still rough. Hopefully the acute teething phase is over for the moment and you will have a bit of a breather before tooth number 2. Just shows you that it was definitely the right decision to give pain meds the other night. He must have really been in pain since he slept so much better last night now the tooth is properly through.


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## bababas

polaris - yea im not that hopeful, just gonna try and see. prolly it is just the WW26 anyway.
happy for your good night :happydance: today seems to be a nap weather. Aron has been napping a long morning nap. and i just let him nap since he is cranky, prolly due to WW26.

lysh - good to hear that you are happy about the long night sleep. at least not 4 am. :flower: maybe i can take a look at better bumpers. the thing is he rolls and wants to roll on his stomach. he rolls with his head up in the air, not like an adult would do and stay in place. so his head is kind of over the bumpers that i have. his bed is too small for him :haha: i remember with ds1 his bed got too small when he was closing 2 years. he got angry but continues sleeping. but slept without getting angry the minute he had a child bed.

the past days aron wants to go nap after a 2 hr stretch. prolly coz OH and ds1 and grandpa arent at the house anymore. you think it is ok 2 hour stretches between naps? last night seemed good even with the late nap.


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## AmyS

NotNic - How funny that he can pretend when his teeth hurt! It's like the little boy who cried wolf story - I wouldn't have known the difference either.

Polaris - They grow up too fast! Is Thomas really looking forward to preschool? I hope Clara has a lovely birthday - so nice your mom can come over for it!

bababas - I think "go with the flow" is a good option right now when you're in the middle of developmental stuff! Like lysh suggested, I have the mesh crib bumpers, and I do think they help a little. Does he roll one way usually? Chloe always rolls to her right, so when I put her down, I make sure she is closest to the left side of the bed to give her plenty of room to roll. 

lysh - Sounds like you're having good luck with crib naps! I call 50 minutes a success! Hope she naps well for your SIL today! 

Gaia - That happens to me a lot - it will appear as if she's almost asleep, then BAM! wide awake and ready to play. It usually happens when we are waiting to have supper after she goes to bed!

Stephie - Glad you had a better night! I agree you did the right thing giving him pain meds - I know it's a hard decision sometimes! Hopefully you get some more good nights in before that other tooth decides to break through!
_________________

So nervous about daycare today! I really want to call at noon to see how she's napping, but I don't want to bother them either. 

She didn't go to sleep until 8:15 last night!! That is so late for her - and then I had to wake her up at 7am to get ready for daycare. I think I'd rather wake a sleeping bear than a sleeping baby!!!


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## polaris

Amy, wait until you have to wake a sleeping toddler! It's an almost impossible task to wake Thomas from a nap and he behaves like a cranky bear for a good 30-45 minutes afterwards! LOL


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## lysh

What a day....dd did not nap AT ALL at SIL's house. So basically, she took a catnap from 8-8:30am with me and that was it. So by the time I picked her up at 4:30, she was beyond exhausted! She fell asleep on the way home and then slept in my arms while nursing. My best friend had a baby, so then at 5:30 my MIL showed up to watch dd so we could go to the hospital and dd freaked out because I had to take her off my boob and she was still beyond tired!!! We had to leave with her screaming, so I am crying on the way to the hospital like a wuss. Get home at 7, she is passed out. She apparently fell back asleep 15 minutes after we left. So she basically slept from 4:30-7:30 (when she finally woke up!). Just got her to bed @ 9:15, so hopefully the rest of the night can go back to normal (hopeful thinking probably).

Ugh


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## gaiagirl

Yikes lysh!!!!!! It's just one day. You can get back on track tomorrow...but yikes. Sounds rough! 

Did seeing a newborn make you broody!?!? Despite it all?! Lol


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## NotNic

5000 posts? That's a lot of sleepless nights! 

Iysh - totally agree with Gaia. Tomorrow will be better xx


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## lysh

Thanks ladies...it was better than I thought. DD slept until 5 and did not wake up numerous times during the night like I expected- in the past she would have, so I guess this is progress. 

I am just hoping the rest of the year will not be like this with naps when I go back to work. 

Hope you all got some good sleep!


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## bababas

stephie - i saw on your previous post that a tooth is coming. yey! and that you had an easy night. good. 

amy and polaris - waking a sleeping toddler! :dohh: aaaaaaa hehe my ds1 has been needing wakings, he is on dropping his nap. didnt nap yesterday in school. ones he didnt nap. then fell asleep around 5pm on the sofa. when he woke up he was ever so grumpy for an hour.

lysh - uff that sounds bad. one of those days. well good she slept well in the end.

Aron has been sleepy these 2 days. you think it is coz of WW26? also the weather here is cloudy, rainy windy. the 3rd nap has been difficult though. needed to go out with him yesterday in the stormy weather so he can sleep a cat nap in his pram.


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## stephie_corin

Sorry for not replying to everyone - I will catch up tomorrow. Having a bit of a nightmare - the AC in our bedroom is broken. Did I mention it's 40 degrees outside?! It's almost 7pm and I've just managed to get the inflatable mattress up in the playroom downstairs. Cully is feeding to sleep now after being awake since 12.30. Getting things fixed is so hard in Dubai - tomorrow is the first day of our weekend and no one works... Wish me luck! I don't have high hopes for tonight. Cully is so sensitive to changes in his environment.


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## stephie_corin

I think DH managed to fix it - at least temporarily! We've migrated back upstairs - almost 8pm and Cully still awake :dohh: but at least he is nursing to sleep again!


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## AmyS

lysh - Thank goodness she had a great night of sleep! Chloe usually does ok too at night when she has little sleep during the day, unless she's had too many days like that in a row. Do you need some ideas for SIL to try for naps? 

bababas - Maybe Aron is going through a growth spurt now and needs a little extra sleep? I'd want to nap in that kind of weather too. A grumpy toddler would scare me to pieces! haha I hope he doesn't drop his naps yet, I thought that was closer to 5yo? I could have read that wrong though! 

Stephie - Glad you got the air working - that sounds way too hot! I can't sleep if it's too hot, but we've been keeping our house about 5 or 6 degrees (F) warmer than we used to at night. Is the 2nd top tooth on it's way out yet? We are still sitting at 2 bottom teeth - which she bit me with last night. I scared her though, because my reaction was to yelp!


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## seaweed eater

Time to catch up :flower:

Bababas, I think GWTF sounds like a good approach for right now. That means, if it doesn't make nights worse, napping after 2 hours awake -- he's still going through the 3-2 transition, right? Am I right that there is not a real pattern to Aron's wakings and naps except that he is waking up a lot? It's hard to know what to do in that situation since you don't have as many clues about what is wrong. There definitely are random good nights and bad nights. And with what you said about him being interested in the world all of a sudden, it does sound like it could be developmental. Hang in there :hugs: it's a good thing they are so cute, huh? :baby:

NotNic, sounds like Fin has been busy!! Congrats on all the new teeth and on walking. Sounds like he is doing great on one nap. The other day I met a 14-month-old who has a long morning nap too. 6:30 wake up is very respectable! So hilarious about him pretending his mouth hurts. Clever boy! <3 Thank you for your encouragement. I wish we could do what you do with bedtime, it sounds just right, but Munchkin won't stand for it, at least not without crying. We enforce dark bedroom play time before 6 AM and he hates it. I used to do the same after bedtime if he didn't want to sleep, but he caught on and now he yells until we take him outside and turn on the lights! :shrug:

I think the reason so many of us are WIO is that the sleep trainers tend to leave the thread :haha: it's just the rare mothers, like me and Polaris, for whom ST has not been permanently effective, who stick around! And of course Noelle...

Amy, I just love the image of Chloe looking around for you over the bumper! :cloud9: You certainly should be proud of her. <3 So glad to hear naps are going better at daycare. I hope today was good too. By the way, I always call daycare if I'm wondering how things are going. Maybe they think I'm crazy but I figure it takes just a few seconds and really makes me feel more at ease! :shrug:

Stephie, we're having 7 hour WTs not infrequently here too (pre and/or post nap). As long as it's working ok for you... :shrug: GWTF means GWTF, right?! I'm sorry to hear about your AC, I find it so much harder to stay patient and calm when it's so warm! I hope you guys can get it fixed right away. And I hope tonight goes well :hugs:

Lysh, glad you had a nice birthday :thumbup: I'm sorry about your rough day yesterday but glad it didn't affect the night too much! How have things been since then? :hugs: I wouldn't worry about naps staying like this in the long term. My LO takes a looooong time to adjust to new situations but he does eventually. I'm sure she will adapt!

Gaiagirl, how well I know that wide awake after bedtime thing... :dohh: 10:40 is late though! What a little night owl you have. I hope you all got some sleep eventually!

Polaris, so glad you had a better night :happydance: maybe the walking is finally starting to tire her out more? I hope you feel better rested and the rest of the day went well! I don't think your description of your morning sounds dull. All of us understand how valuable it is when your LO actually sleeps and you get some extra time to get things done!

AFU - I'm going to jinx it now but things have been going really well! It makes it very easy to GWTF. :p Last night was actually our best ever, STTN 7:35-5:45, and for once I didn't wake up at 4 myself! :happydance: I wouldn't say no to a few more of those.

He's still been having one nap around 12:30, usually about 45 min give or take, plus usually (not always) 5 minutes in the car in the morning. I can't fathom how he stays awake until 12:30 but apparently he does! I think the car nap helps. In the evenings he's usually fine. He wants to be outdoors all the time now (or maybe he always did and just didn't know how to ask before!) so I think that helps, too.

Wishing all of you a good night (actually, for most of you, a good day)!


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## stephie_corin

Lysh, poor baby girl! That's terrible! Im glad she slept ok last night. No one but me has ever even tried to put my son down for a nap - I'm not sure how he'd go with anyone else.

Polaris, three cheers for Clara! She's giving you a great 'birth day' present! And I can finally wish her happy birthday for tomorrow. It's lucky I wished her an early happy birthday - it reminded me to send flowers to my mum! I also love those mornings when you get some time to yourself to get chores done.

Bababas, I think 2 hours is fine if that what he wants :) WW could definitely be making him more sleepy, or a growth spurt?

Amy, how were daycare naps?! I agree, waking a baby is awful! Cully screams hysterically so I've stopped waking him now - even if he takes a really late nap. Hubby claims he saw the second tooth this morning but I'm not so sure! When he wakes from his nap I will try to investigate. He's so funny about me trying to touch his mouth though.

NotNic, thanks for the words of encouragement. It's so important to stay positive! Bad sleep can't last forever, right? 

SE, I agree that the car nap is helping if he is anything like Cully - even a few minutes dozing can result in hours of extra awake time. It's still such a long time! Cully has been taking his nap around 10.30am at the moment and I don't think he could stay awake much longer. I'm hoping he stretches it out before I go back to work or DH will have to leave work and try to put him down. I digress... 

I'm sure walking makes then more tired. Plus mentally there is so much going on for the little toddlers on the thread. I hope the good nights continue for you guys :)


Well - our AC lasted the night but it's playing up again for nap time so I've got the fan aimed at him and hoping for the best! Gaia and Polaris, I have so much sympathy for you guys when you were complaining about hot nights - it's 29 degrees in our room and it's horrible. 

Last night was actually good! He still woke frequently but is becoming so much easier to settle. I couldn't tell you how often he woke but I feel much more rested. From about 5am I needed to rock him and feed him every 20-30 minutes but the rest of the night was pretty good :)


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## lysh

bababas- That is nice your LO will sleep in his pram- mine never liked it and would scream the minute I stuck her in it. Now she will happily sit her stroller and go for a short walk because she is more aware and will look around- but naps, not so easily!!!! My MIL would sometimes put her to sleep that way, but LO would scream first. The hard part is like you said, the stormy weather....I am sure it is not fun when it is cold too! Cloudy weather probably makes babies sleepy like it does us.

Stephie- Ugh....yeah, sleeping in hot weather stinks! I hope you are able to get the AC fixed soon. Glad to hear most of the night went well- the easier they are to settle the quicker you can get back to sleep!!!

AmyS- Yeah, I did give SIL a bunch of ideas- like singing Hush Little Baby since that is what I chose to sing to her to help her settle once I got her in the crib. The problem is that she has 4 rambunctious children in a tiny home and dd is not use to noise. At home, she lives with me, DH, and our cat!!! lol The screaming of other children wakes her up and then she has a hard time settling. Plus, when I am home with dd, she sleeps and hour and a half for a nap, but part of it is in the crib and the rest is nursing- obviously no one else can nurse her! I just hope she adjusts- it was a bit of a nightmare last year and we ended up with lots of 4am wake ups!

SE- Yes, it takes LO time to adjust. I think the hard part is that we have my MIL and my SIL watching her during the week. It is great having family, but it is not the same person all week. Then she has me on the weekends, so it a lot of change. She will adapt, but last year was definitely not the greatest when it came to sleep. So your 10 month old is on one nap a day? 45 minutes and then a catnap? 

Yesterday DD only slept for 1 hour 15 minutes total during the day for naps. She fell asleep in the car for 1/2 hour and the rest with me. She woke up at 12:30 and ended up staying awake until 7:30...she was tired. SHe fell asleep at 7:30, but woke up at 4. I hope we do not start these early mornings again, it is hard during the work year.


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## stephie_corin

Lysh, 4am wakeup?!? You poor thing! You must feel exhausted. Do you go to bed early? I wish I had some tips for you but the only way I helped my early riser sleep longer was by rocking him (for hours sometimes!). I hope she sleeps later in the morning for you tomorrow. Thanks for the hot-weather commiserations!


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## stephie_corin

Ps DH was wrong, the second tooth is not out!


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## AmyS

lysh - What about a white noise machine to drown out the other kids? Chloe's is pretty loud, and it helps drown out hubby's snoring and my recent coughing. Hope she can adjust well - now that she's older, maybe she'll be more willing to accept a little change!

Stephie - Glad you had a better night!! I hope your AC holds out - that would be so tough to sleep in that heat!

SE - I do call over my lunch sometimes! I warned them that I would - and they always suggest it anyway. Wow, you did have a great night! I can't imagine going all day on a couple of short naps like that. Chloe does it sometimes, but not without lots of complaining!
_____________________
Daycare naps have gone down hill again! She took a 20 minute in the morning, and then a 30 minute from 5-5:30pm yesterday. Then, she cut her lip when she fell (so much blood!) and ended up in bed an hour later than usual. She was kind of unsettled all night then.


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## lysh

Stephie- Thanks! So you rocked your baby and eventually he just started sleeping later?

AmyS- Oh no!!! Poor baby! How is she? I was thinking about a white noise...not sure if it will help her sleep longer, but maybe for at least the 30 minutes she would sleep in her crib at home. The only thing is that the white noise machine would have to really DROWN out the noise really, really well. It is a small house and the kids are basically in the next room to where she is sleeping.


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## polaris

Lysh, I use a white noise machine for Clara and I find it brilliant. It doesn't totally drown out the noise but it masks it. If you are sleeping then you tend not to hear other noises outside the room, although you would hear them if you were awake. When the white noise is on, I am not disturbed by OH snoring in the next room and I never hear him going to the loo or going up to bed at nights, whereas without the white noise I would always wake from those noises and would definitely not be able to sleep through his snoring! So definitely worth a try!

My mum is visiting for the week so I probably won't be online much. Off to wrap Clara's birthday presents now! Good sleeping everyone!


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## seaweed eater

Back later for a real post but HAPPY BIRTHDAY CLARA!!!! :cake: :cake: :cake: Have a wonderful week, Polaris!


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## lysh

Happy Birthday to your little girl!

Any recommendations on white noise machines?


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## AmyS

Lysh - I have the Marpac Dohm-DS that's on Amazon. Works great! She never wakes up when hubby is getting ready for work (very loudly!).

Polaris - Happy birthday to Clara! Have a great weekend!


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## seaweed eater

We're having a major nursing strike here. It came totally out of the blue. I hope this is not the end of our BF relationship but I'm honestly not sure. I'm devastated. :cry: Thank goodness Munchkin can SS as well as he can but nursing was still the best way to comfort him and get him relaxed. Tonight is the first time ever he hasn't nursed at bedtime. I just can't believe this is happening.


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## polaris

seaweed eater said:


> We're having a major nursing strike here. It came totally out of the blue. I hope this is not the end of our BF relationship but I'm honestly not sure. I'm devastated. :cry: Thank goodness Munchkin can SS as well as he can but nursing was still the best way to comfort him and get him relaxed. Tonight is the first time ever he hasn't nursed at bedtime. I just can't believe this is happening.

SE :hugs: How long has it been going on for? Thomas had a nursing strike at about 15/16 months in which he didn't nurse at all for three or four days. I was sure that he was going to wean and I was so not ready for it because it came totally out of the blue. For us it began with a cold and blocked nose which made it uncomfortable for him to feed. I kept offering and after three or four days he just went back to nursing again. I did pump a few times during the time he wasn't feeding but not all that much. Fingers crossed that Munchkin goes back to nursing too.


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## stephie_corin

Amy, I hope Chloe is ok! It's so frightening when that happens. Cully has fallen and split the webbing between the top gum and his lip twice now and there is so much blood! That's a late nap! Poor baby girl. Do you find she's more clumsy when naps are bad and she's tired? I have to watch Cully like a hawk when he's tired because he's so much more likely to slip over. It still doesn't help though and he always ends up falling over.

Lysh, yep I just consistently rocked him and now he doesn't usually wake before 6am. We bed share and from about 5-530 I'm still usually awake and rocking/feeding him but not every day. I'm definitely seeing improvements.

Polaris, happy birthday to Clara! Have a lovely week with your mum!

SE, stay positive. I read on Kellymom that nursing strikes are really common at his age. I sent you the link - it's got some good tips. If it is the end - you did GREAT! Better than great - you've been working and pumping and I admire your commitment. Try to relax and know it's in munchkin's hands now. If he wants to nurse he will come back to it. 

We've been having some crazy MOTN parties. Generally his sleep is great - he's doing 1.5-2 hour stretches but the last few nights he's had these weird periods of just being awake. A couple of times he's been awake around 1.5 hours but last night it took 3 hours to get him back to sleep. 

What do you guys do for MOTN parties? Do you let baby play? I spent two hours and 50 minutes rocking him last night and then lost my patience and woke DH who then put him to sleep in ten minutes! I'm not sure of the best way to handle these baby parties.


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## lysh

SE- Sorry, I am sure it is a shock to have it happen suddenly? Is your LO usually an avid nurser?

Well, yesterday naps were okay, but none in her crib as one was in the car and the other in my arms. I decided not to push the crib for her second nap because I moved an inch and she started to stir.....I figured after a few days of inconsistency, I would let her catnap on me. This is what happens during the school year. I get home from picking her up and I end up sitting on the couch for an hour while she naps from exhaustion. :/ Oh, how I wish I could easily stick her in her cribs for naps. Sometimes the list of things I need to get done are very overwhelming due to the fact that she goes to bed 8-8:30, wakes up around 5, and has a hard time napping anywhere but on me.


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## lysh

Stephie- Honestly, for MOTN parties, I would nurse my daughter, try rocking for a bit and put her in her crib if she would not settle....usually she would cry for a minute, I would try again. I would go through this cycle 2-3 times before just sticking her in her crib. Usually LO goes to sleep nursing, if it would not happen because she wants to be awake, I had to be firm. I think she cried once for 10-15 minutes. I did not want to start a habit I could not sustain....if I had to deal with MOTN parties and deal with work the next day, I would have lost my sanity!!!!!!


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## bababas

thanx everybody. yea i guess go with the flow has been very good for us now. tonight he only woke up 
11:30pm
1:30pm
4:30pm
6:00pm
so my breasts were hurting, i think they got used to the crazy last week wakings. hehe. yesterday were only 2 naps though, while going with the flow.

lysh - so sorry for the 4am wake up again. if she goes later to bed does she also wake up so early? or maybe if she gets a bottle, does she sleep a bit longer?

polaris - have a great birthday day. and happy birthday clara!!!!

SE - sorry for the nursing strike. i read it could be something developmental. i on the other hand am thinking of weaning now. well he has one bottle as a substitute. not sure what i will do next. i am ready to wean though. but remember it makes me really feel sad though.

Stephie - i havent had a MOTN yet. i hope they go away for you. i think i would try just to sleep and see what he does.

Amy - sorry for the cut lip. hope she is better now. my friends toddlers dropped their naps at around 3 years. i have napped until i started school though :haha: could be a developmental thing too for Ívar he will be 3 soon.


hope i can be online next days. the owner of the house is gonna fix some stuff.... and paint windows. otherwise i catch up later.


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## lysh

Bababas- At 6 months of age, my LO was waking up quite a few times as well. Hopefully that will decrease another feeding soon! I will actually bring LO to bed and nurse her in bed, but she wants to wake up and play! lol She just has never needed long periods of sleep at night I guess. She is not like her mama in that respect! ha


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## seaweed eater

I still won't be able to respond tonight but I'm thinking of you all. The past 24 hours have been a real challenge for us. I'm staying hopeful that he will be able to nurse again but so far it's been tough for both of us to adjust. Trying to remember that in the scheme of things this isn't a big deal at all.


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## bababas

thinking of you SE. Munchkin and Ívar have the same birthday YAY :D

When I wanted to put Aron to bed last night, he just wasnt sleepy, rather laughing at everything. but I was so dead tired already. so I just put him in his bed. and we went to watch Broadchurch.

He fell asleep by himself :shrug: whined a bit later but didnt wake up until 
11:30pm
2:30am
4:30am (think he whined twice after this time, but i hardly woke up, dont remember if he stopped or if i fed him a bit)
6:30am what an improvement from last weeks. seems my boobs are getting used to that schedule now. they are not painful today.

i slept on my wrong side though. so strange if i sleep at my right side i have been waking up dizzy. anybody knows what that might be.


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## stephie_corin

Lysh, I really feel for you. It's so hard when you've got a child that seems to be able to survive on such little sleep! What happens if you put her to bed earlier? Thanks for the advice on the MOTN parties. I agree - best not to get up and play - I really don't want to encourage him!

Bababas, what great nights you've been having! That's wonderful news! And he fell asleep by himself?!? WOW! That's like the second holy grail of baby sleep (STTN being the first I guess!).

SE, you know I'm thinking of you. Big hugs my dear friend.

We seem to be firmly on one nap at the moment. I'm watching for sleepy cues but they don't happen until 4 hours after first wakeup and then - provided he takes a good nap, which he has been - he seems to be able to go for HOURS! Last night we had an 830pm sleep (after waking at 1230) and then he was awake again at 9pm. He seemed really tired this morning - but unable to sleep. So tonight I brought out the exercise ball and bounced him to sleep at 7pm. I hope it doesn't backfire but I really feel he needs more sleep at night if he is staying awake so long during the day. 

I hope all is well with everyone!


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## lysh

stephie_corin said:


> Lysh, I really feel for you. It's so hard when you've got a child that seems to be able to survive on such little sleep! What happens if you put her to bed earlier? Thanks for the advice on the MOTN parties. I agree - best not to get up and play - I really don't want to encourage him!

She just wakes up earlier!!! lol I told DH I want to try shifting bedtime back 15min. to see what happens now that she is older. She was up at 4 again this morning....wondering if she was too overtired....her naps are changing again!


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## stephie_corin

Lysh, that's tough! My first thought was that she was overtired, hence the early morning wakeup. It might be worth a shot trying for an earlier bedtime now she's older? When she switches to one nap that might help her sleep longer too as she won't be able to play catch up on her night sleep with that first nap. I did read recently that pushing the first nap forward can help night sleep for that very reason.


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## seaweed eater

Stephie, Munchkin and Cully seem to be on a similar wake time pattern (as usual). Are you purely GWTF or are you doing anything in terms of wake times or scheduling his nap? I've been aiming for 12-12:30 for the start of Munchkin's nap but with the amount of stimulation (or lack thereof) he gets on weekends that seems to push bedtime too late. I've also been giving him a 5-min nap in the car (I'm trying to mirror daycare exactly) but maybe it would be better to avoid the nap and put him down closer to 11...something to try next weekend. :shrug: Things are a little out of control here at the moment due to the nursing situation, anyway!

Bababas, that does sound like SUCH an improvement, I'm so glad :thumbup: and so wonderful that he self-settled!! I'm sure even better nights are ahead for you.

Lysh, so sorry about the continued early mornings. :hugs: I would echo what Stephie said. Noelle has advised people in this thread to deal with early mornings by stretching out the first wake time so that the first nap is around when it's supposed to be.

I'm hoping that this crazy not nursing thing will at least help us learn more about Munchkin's needs and habits, if no other good comes of it. Here's something we discovered this morning: it is now possible to transfer him from his carseat and have him stay asleep in his crib! I hadn't tried that in months. Also, bizarrely, yesterday he fell asleep sucking on a pacifier (he'd always refused them), but he hasn't done it again since so I think I'm going to stop trying that unless I'm really out of ideas.


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## lysh

Stephie and SE- The past few days she has been taking one 1 1/2 hour nap. I am wondering if she is overtired too....I started bath time at 7:20- wanted it to be 7:15 but DH was running late. I am going to shoot for bedtime even earlier tomorrow and see what happens. She is sleeping from 11 ish- 12:30. Of course that is with me nursing her for half of it....like I said, who the heck knows what will happen when I go back to work! And then of course the time change is around the corner!


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## gaiagirl

Hi Ladies! SE thinking of you and the crazy striking situation! Definitely intrigued to see how it all plays out. Must be sooo tough, I hope it resolves soon...

I think F may have been napping TOO much lately. 3 hours of naps and he is not ready for bed at bedtime.

Yesterday was 1.5 hours total and bed was way easier. Today was nuts with traveling to a nearby town for a friends bday party, so we will see.


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## bababas

I went first here instead of reading the newspaper coz Aron only woke up 1am today for a drink. :shrug: so i thought I will change his diaper when he wakes 3. But then he kept on sleeping. my boobs felt like rocks.... So I woke him at 7am.

We had a bad bedtime though, coz of a late nap yesterday. And the owner of the house is taking some furniture so we were working me and OH and had Aron on the floor... he wasnt always happy about that. Poor guy. So at bedtime he was strange. That in the end I just gave him boobie to make him fall asleep. I felt so bad coz I let him cry first a bit. I thought he would settle. poor guy. Feel so bad for that and his diaper. But when he got boobie he fell asleep right away. 

SE - how is the not nursing thing going? does he take the bottle instead though? I remember I was only able to transfer ds1 and ds2 one time each without waking from the car seat :haha: aron has those weird days where he actually takes the pacifier.

lysh - i hope the early bed time will work. let us know. i remember when Ívar ds1 was around that age he would take 3 days a month waking 5am. until he was 2 years old. i thought it was something developmental. but I hope your daughter will not do this until she is 2. waking up 4am.

gaigagirl - Aron is showing signs of having difficult time sleeping with too much day sleep also now. he had a late nap yesterday.... and bedtime was one of those bad days. have to watch out, i fell asleep in his nap with him that was the problem. :haha:


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## lysh

SE- I keep meaning to ask- was your LO an avid nurser before going on strike?? What have you been giving your LO instead? 

bababas- Thanks- these early mornings are exhausting. At least you got some unexpected sleep!!! It would be annoying when that would first happen though and then I would wake up because my breasts were so uncomfortable!

Well, DD woke up at 12:30am screaming. She has not done that in a long time!!! It took me 45 minutes to get her back to sleep. She did not want to settle easily. I eventually put her in her crib and she was okay as long as I kept my hand on her face. If I went to move it at all, she freaked out and grabbed it. So I sang to her until she fell in a deep enough sleep that I was able to retreat back to bed. Of course it took me forever to fall back asleep and then she was up for the day at 5:10.

I honestly feel like she does not get enough sleep in general!!!! I will keep slowly shifting to an earlier bedtime to see what happens. I also had a 'duh' moment this morning. Not only are naps seemingly moving to 1 per day, but she is standing on her own now!! So she is learning new skills and will probably begin walking any day now. I blame the midnight wakening on that...she was so excited yesterday with her ability to stand up from crawling position!


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## seaweed eater

Lysh, he was nursing 8-10 times a day! I'm worried because people say 3-4 days is pretty normal but for him that means a lot more bottles/nursing refusals than for most babies his age.

Bababas, fortunately he's taking a bottle ok so we're not concerned about his health/dehydration but I'm afraid he may not be motivated enough to BF. :( And I am unable to pump enough to keep up with him at the moment.

This is so stressful... 3:45 AM, he took a bottle and fell asleep and then woke up again. So DH stayed up with him while I pumped another one. Then I gave it to him and he fell asleep again. Now I'm pumping again. I've been up for an hour already. I think we have to do some more aggressive sleep training to reduce his dependence on feeding before sleep. I'm not sure what else to do :shrug: I also think it's not good that I'm holding him in nursing position and giving him bottles at night. I've just been desperate for him to fall asleep but it's probably not helping his motivation to nurse. Ah, he's awake again...excellent.


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## lysh

SE- Wow, that would be like my LO suddenly refusing to nurse!!! She nurses ALL the time for everything. I would be in shock too. Pumping is hard. So many teachers I worked with would pump once a day and get 8 oz. I would have to pump during both my breaks and I typically got 4-6 oz total. 

That is going to be an exhausting schedule if you are doing a bottle and pumping throughout the night. Maybe you can try some water for one of the feedings so he is not dependent on it for calories? 

Oh, these babies!!!! lol


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## AmyS

SE - I see you're still in a nursing strike. I can't imagine how that must feel...it's one thing to plan weaning at a certain time, but completely different when they decide on their own! I hope it's only temporary - but I like that you are also seeing the positive side of things by learning about his new habits. I have still been feeding Chloe to sleep, and was hoping that she would just spontaneously decide one day that she didn't need it anymore! haha I'm in the same boat as you and wondering if I'll need to do sleep training to break that sleep crutch. Sorry you had a bad night!

Stephie - She was okay! It just bled a lot, and she cried really hard until daddy let her suck on an ice pack. That really helped! How are your motn parties? Have you just been trying to get him back to sleep instead of playing? I like the idea that someone mentioned of just letting them crawl around in the dark until they're ready to pass out again - but I'd guess you'd need a floor bed for that. 

bababas - Sounds like things are definitely improving for you! I remember when I was 4 years old that I didn't take naps - I went to play with a friend one day, and I thought it was so odd that her mom made us lay down to take a nap! I didn't visit her again, haha.

lysh - Sorry for the early wake ups! Chloe went through that a couple months ago, and I would just rock her to help her back to sleep until it was time to get up. Some days I would rock from 4-6am just to keep her asleep. Those were tough mornings! How exciting that she is learning so much! I know developmental times suck for sleep, but if I remind myself that Chloe is learning a lot, it always makes it seem not so bad.
________________

The weekend - I always read here, but I'm always on my phone and hate thumb typing one handed. 

Naps are just off! Saturday, I started trying at 9, which only gave her 2 hours of wake time - bad idea on my part, but I thought she was acting tired. Daddy finally got her to bed at 10am, in her crib! She slept until 11:30am, and then he woke her up because we had visitors and were supposed to go out for lunch. The she didn't take her afternoon nap until 5-5:30pm.

Yesterday, she wouldn't fall asleep in the morning, so her first nap was 12pm-1:15pm, and the 2nd nap was 3:30 -5pm. Too much sleep, I think, because she didn't go down easily.

I can tell that she's going through developmental stuff too, since she's been practicing pulling up to stand all day - and then in her sleep, she does the downward facing dog yoga pose! She was very unsettled all night long because of this.


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## stephie_corin

SE, we are purely going with the flow but his nap seems to be happening between 10-11am and finishing between 12-1. I guess I'm not 100% GWTF because I help him back to sleep between sleep cycles or mid cycle if he wakes, until he wakes up happy. I couldn't get him to take a cat nap earlier - he just refuses to sleep until at least 4 hours since he first woke. I'm sorry that the strike is still ongoing. Like Lysh said - it's pretty shocking how much he was nursing and then to stop all of a sudden... Mind blowing. I'm remaining hopeful for you that he comes back to nursing. 

Gaia, Cully also doesn't do well at bedtime with too much day sleep. 1.5-2 seems to be our sweet spot in order for bedtime to go reasonably smoothly. Have fun and good luck at the party!

Bababas, I'm glad your amazing stretch of good sleep is continuing! I can't even remember what it feels like to be engorged. Lol. It's a feeling I would welcome back :) as I mentioned to Gaia, Cully is also really sensitive to too much day sleep and can be really unsettled (more so than usual) if he takes long naps. Seems to be a common theme!

Lysh, congratulations on the standing! That's fantastic news! The MOTN "party" isn't so awesome but the milestones are so exciting. I hope one nap helps you guys get a later wakeup. It might also make it easier for your caregivers to get her to nap. Oh, and Cully nurses for most of his nap too! 

Amy, I'm glad Chloe is ok! The ice pack is a great idea. I don't want to make you nervous but that late AM nap and even later PM nap is exactly what Cully did before deciding he only wanted one nap! Lol. These babies definitely have their own forum and are comparing notes! Yay for the pulling to stand! I love the thought if her in her yoga pose too :) very cute!

Last night was a nightmare for us. I regret bouncing him to sleep because he was so unsettled last night and took three MOTN parties! Although it might also be his second front tooth. I thought it was through but it's only just cutting through today. It's now 8.30pm and he won't unlatch. He seems to want to nurse a lot when he is teething. 

Also, in the last few days he has been nursing many times a day. I'm not sure if anyone remembers, but since 3-4 months of age he ONLY nursed when he was about to sleep. Now he will take a few small feeds in the morning and a few more in the afternoon. I guess now he is only taking 1 nap he's decided he wants to nurse at non-sleep times too. It's bizarre to me. He'll even nurse in the middle if the living room with stuff going on around him. And he lets me know he wants to nurse too. It's the strangest thing!


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## AmyS

Stephie - I remember when he would only nurse to sleep during the day! He's figured out that "mommy buffet" is open all day long! I had to laugh when you said you bounced him to sleep on your exercise ball - mine is still sitting out, although I haven't used it in a while, I have bounced Chloe for many hours! I hope his 2nd tooth makes a fast appearance - one motn party is too many, I can't imagine 3 of them!!


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## bababas

lysh - congratulations on the standing :happydance: cant wait for it. but then it will prolly be a drama to make aron fall asleep haha. he would prolly just wanna stand first for 2 hours.

amy - downward facing dog yoga pose :haha: it is wonderful being young haha. but sounds like developmental stuff i agree. uff the late naps are just not a good thing here either. they were ok before. but it seems aron is getting too old for them.

stephie - wow im quiet proud of your little man though that he is so good in communication letting you know when to nurse. aron is in that age where i have to nurse him in quiet. otherwise he starts rolling. but sorry for the 3 MOTN partied. man thats too much. :hugs:

SE - so sorry to hear that about pumping in the middle of the night. and he has always been like that right, the need to feed to sleep? i hope it is something they can grow out of. but sleep training also sounds good. what 2 of my friends have been doing is walking them around until they fall back to sleep. but that doesnt really sound that much fun either. and you prolly have tried that already. some say music helps, baby music. but i have otherwise no experience. he sleeps in his crib right? it is not that he wants to co-sleep or anything? another friend told me that co-sleeping worked best for her. just really hope it gets better. :hugs:


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## seaweed eater

Thanks everyone. I'm so sorry I haven't caught up, I've just been feeling overwhelmed to be honest. I've been trying to make a plan...this thread doesn't seem the right place for all of the details, even though some of it has to do with sleep, but if you are interested in the BF side of things, I'm planning to update here: https://babyandbump.momtastic.com/breastfeeding/1980035-has-survived-strike.html#post29205657

Tonight my goal is to see if I can somehow get Munchkin calm enough to cuddle in the rocking chair :) he's never enjoyed sitting still unless he's nursing or bottle feeding. He will only let me hold him if I'm walking around -- just as you said, Bababas -- and I don't want to introduce that as a sleep association now, although it might be a place to start if all else fails. It seems like, if there's no way to cuddle (so that singing or reading stories or whatever can then relax him further), then the only alternative will be to put him in his crib fully squirmy, which is a scary thought.

Bababas, I know co-sleeping is so wonderful for some people! To be honest it's just not something either DH or I want at all and I know it can be a really long-term commitment (unless you are willing to cause some tears later anyway) so we've avoided it. In addition to that, LO is very sensitive to noise so I worry that he would be waking up all the time -- maybe going back to sleep easily if he started nursing again, but having to deal with that while he's still refusing to nurse sounds really hard.

Still reading, and as always grateful to all of you for your support...will respond properly soon. :hugs:


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## lysh

AmyS- You are a patient momma to rock for 2 hours! :thumbup: I tried sitting in the room with her and nursing her back to sleep...some mornings it would work, other mornings it would not. And to be honest, I was not always as consistent as I should have been because I was too tired to sit in the bedroom for hours!!! 
Those were some crazy naps.....great that DH got her in her crib for an hour and a half!!!!

Stephie- If she does keep with this one nap a day,I agree it will probably make things easier. DD is always just coming up to me and 'helping herself' with nursing...even in the middle of chaos!

bababas- Yeah, I am expecting some wake-ups tonight because she will probably want to continue to practice her skill!!! She almost could not wait to start practicing this morning.

SE- Good luck!

We started our bedtime routine 15 minutes earlier and she was in her crib 10 minutes earlier than yesterday. Tomorrow we will try another 10 minutes earlier and see what happens!!!


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## seaweed eater

Lysh, I really hope the earlier sleep time results in a later morning for you tomorrow!! Glad to hear it worked :thumbup:

Munchkin was in a really bad mood tonight and refused milk for most of the evening, so I had to give him a bottle when he was sleepy so that he wouldn't go to bed hungry. I tried putting him in bed without the bottle and he was miserable, and because I figured he was hungry I couldn't let him cry for too long. He practically fell asleep on the bottle but I gave it to him out in the living room, and I read him a story and sang him a lullaby afterward before putting him in bed. He then cried for a couple of minutes and fell asleep. So, it's just a few minutes of separation between bottle and sleep -- a very tiny step -- but hopefully it gets us somewhere.


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## lysh

I am not sure what time she slept until- I woke up at 6 and immediately turned on the monitor- she was standing in her crib! lol So I just got her and we started the day. Unfortunately, had some errands to run so she fell asleep in the car at 9:45....that means a potential late nap!


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## seaweed eater

I always think, if you didn't hear anything, that means they were probably fine! :p Glad you yourself got some more sleep either way! I hope today goes ok.


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## stephie_corin

Bababas, thanks! I'm so pleased he finally seems to have returned to nursing at non-nap times. He used to feed every 1-1.5 hours and then overnight became distracted by the world! Did you breastfeed your first? Was he a good sleeper?

SE, I'm so sorry the strike is continuing. I hope things improve soon. I'll be reading your other thread with interest. 

Lysh, good luck! I really hope the earlier bedtime works well for you guys! How funny she was playing in her crib when you woke - I wonder what time she woke up?!?

We had another MOTN party 10.30pm - 12.30. It's not teeth anymore so I guess it's developmental but he really doesn't seem to be working on anything new. He's been crawling and pulling up and cruising and climbing for a few months now and no sign of new tricks... maybe he just likes being awake in the night ...?


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## seaweed eater

Thanks Stephie :hugs: I'm feeling better about it this morning because I got some good SLEEP! Munchkin slept 8:15-5:30-6:45 today. He almost never wakes up that late. Of course, I was up with him at 5:30 and then didn't have time to go back to sleep after pumping, but I will sooooo take it. He's drinking milk from a cup today so hopefully we can try to go completely bottle-free tonight. Eek!

I'm really sorry to hear about your MOTN. I hope tonight is better. :hugs: When did you put him down last night? What do you do with him when he's awake for that long? I'm sure he has a lot of new tricks coming, btw...they always do!


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## lysh

Thanks ladies.....sorry Stephie..MOTN parties are so hard!!!!!


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## bababas

SE - wow he fell asleep without his bottle :happydance:
and hurra to your good sleep.

lysh - good you got some longer sleep :thumbup:

stephie - i breastfed my first. and formula before bed (at 2 or 4 months i dont remember that well) coz we had some problems with breastfeeding. he was an easy baby. STTN at 5 months. never bothered by WW. hardly bothered by teething. and happy in his crib. opposite of aron :haha: but i dont find aron that difficult either. he is just different. sorry about more MOTN parties.

Aron woke up 4 times last night. ones i was able to sush him back to sleep. i think i woke him up when i went to bed around 10pm. Today we had 2 naps only, coz the owners of the house are painting, and etc. i couldnt give him a late nap. so he woke up today after i put him down to bed. was a bit grumpy. could be that he was overtired. but fell asleep on the boobie.


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## NotNic

Ladies I'm pooped! The balance of the world has been put right again. Current eye teeth breaking through and the top molars coming down have really knocked F. He has had multiple bad nights, high temp and had a mild fit (more like severe shakes). His nose is gunky and he has conjunctivitis. We took him to the drs yesterday and she has checked and apart from the eyes no infection. Her feeling is that his teething is behind all of it. He just has 3 more teeth to go (apart from the 2yr molars) and they can't come through quick enough!

I will try to post properly later on. Seaweed - F went on milk strike (though I wasn't nursing) around 10mths. It lasted a week then back to normal. There may be a blessing in disguise with this gap. Maybe he will start having fewer, more substantial feeds rather than snacks going forward. I know you enjoy nursing though, but if he does decide he's had enough, how great is it that he self-weaned naturally? Also is it hot where you are? I know when it was very humid when I was still bfing, he would push away from me. The closeness was too much for him in the hot weather.


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## seaweed eater

Not our very best night...of course, he slept 9-5:15 so that's good! But it was one of those evenings where the entire evening was spent putting him to sleep. He had such a tough time without any bottles or cups. We also finally had the dreaded appearance of sitting/standing in crib. I had been uncertain whether I would lay him down or not, but it quickly became a nonissue after I tried laying him down twice and he got really, really mad and just popped up again, so I had to leave him. He eventually fell asleep sitting up :shock: and I moved him after he was asleep. I hope he figures that out soon. I don't like it.

I think he could also have slept longer this morning if he hadn't sat up right away. He was really tired. We did our usual playtime in the dark and around 6 he actually crawled over to me, put his head on my leg, and fell asleep. :shock: Completely unlike him!! I transferred him to his crib awake but not crying. He slept for only another 10 min or so.

I hope he takes a good nap today. He did yesterday, but he needs it more today. I wish I could stay home today and give him a long nap at home so he doesn't get too tired, but I can't. :(

Seriously thinking of hiring a sleep consultant, since I found one whose basic values seem similar to mine. Still talking it through with DH.

More later :hugs: :sleep:


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## AmyS

Stephie - How was last night? More motn parties? 

SE - Falling asleep sitting up!! It sounds really cute, but I agree, I am not looking forward to when this starts happening for Chloe. Is the sleep consultant near you so that they can actually be there in person? 

NotNic - Wow, poor guy! He is just being terrorized by all of those teeth wanting to come in at once!

lysh - How are your earlier bedtimes going?

bababas - Have you thought about transitioning to 2 naps yet anyway? 
_________________________

Well, we are definitely in the midst of a developmental stage. She is fighting naps - yesterday she took a nap (at home with my mom) from 10 - 11:45am, and then she wouldn't take an afternoon nap. I should have just put her to bed early, but I started trying for a catnap about 4:30pm, and she finally fell asleep from 5-5:30pm. So then it took forever to get her down for the night, and she woke up a couple of times and was really hard to settle. She keeps doing her yoga pose when she wakes and hopping her feet up in the air.

But, I really love this age!! She is just being so funny and cute!


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## stephie_corin

Bababas, it's amazing how different babies from the same family can be! Sorry about naps and overtiredness. I hope you have better luck tomorrow.

Notnic, I'm so sorry for your rough patch! Huge big hugs! (My autocorrect changed that to "huge pig bugs"). I hope Finlay starts to feel better soon and the teeth finish coming through. Wowsa - that is so much to happen all at once. 

SE, I can't believe he fell asleep sitting up! We're you in the room or did you leave him to fall asleep? How long did it take him to fall asleep? Amazing night for you guys! 

Amy, I really feel your pain regarding naps - Cully was staying up so late when he took that late catnap. I agree though, it's such a great age! How is she sleeping at night? I read something useful thats helped me a bit - if the first nap finishes close to 12, try a cat nap around 330 or some quiet time if they won't nap, and then go for an early bed time. 

Our MOTN parties are continuing. I eventually rock him to sleep only for him to wake as soon as I put him down. At one point last night I was so tired I just propped myself upright with pillows and we slept like that for about an hour. I don't get it - he's actually standing independently less now than a month ago?! He's no interest in walking... I do wonder if he has more teeth coming through. He's only got two top and two bottom and he is tugging his ear at night?! But pain relief did nothing a few nights ago.


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## seaweed eater

I don't think I quite conveyed the mood in our house last night... As DH reminded me, it was actually 9:30, not 9. And we started trying to put him down at 7. Those 2 1/2 hours included ~45 minutes of playing happily, and the rest was crying. On the bright side...I think it's the longest he's struggled to go to sleep without throwing up? Is that a bright side? Hard to feel good about it somehow :wacko:

Sleeping sitting up was scary! A few times he woke himself up by nodding and tipping sideways. In the end he fell asleep bent forward at the waist. It did not look comfortable!

The sleep consultant doesn't live near us so it would be a consultation over the phone. We will probably do it if she can find a time that works with DH's schedule.

Amy, it really is a fun age, even with the attendant sleep difficulties! :cloud9: I'm glad you are enjoying it. Sounds like yesterday ended up ok despite the unusual naps.

Stephie, I'm so sorry about your continued MOTN parties and rough nights :hugs: whether it's teething or development, I'm sure there is a good reason for it. You're doing everything right and you know him best. I hope things get better again soon!!


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## NotNic

Finlay falls asleep sitting up ALL the time! We have bumpers and I leave him to it. 5/10mins after I can't hear him anymore I go up and lay him down. He also sits upright before he's awake. If we don't need him to be awake I just lay him down quickly and smoothly. Most the time he will go back no problem but we did have nights where he did it 10+ times. :( Hope that doesn't happen to you but if it does I hope it encourages you that he's mostly grown out of it!! He just tends to wake up with a bang sometimes! :D


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## lysh

bababas- Hope you had a good night!

Notnic- Hope those teeth pop out soon!! Teething is an exhausting process.

SE- Yikes, sounds like a long night! My LO is now standing in the crib when she wakes up rather than just crawling around. It is taking her longer now to settle back down when she wakes up during the night. I try going in and laying her on her back and it pisses her off too. Poor little one though, sleeping sitting up!!! How long did it take your LO to settle during the night?? Listening to them cry is so hard. :nope: You will see below, we had a tough night too.

Stephie- My LO started standing (not unassisted, but hanging off of furniture) when she was 9 1/2 months old. She hovered once and then that was it. She decided crawling was better at the moment and other than using furniture to hang onto and walk around, she had no interest in continuing to try to walk up until now. Maybe it is just phases they go through!!! I hope your MOTN parties get better soon!

So last night was a total fail. Started our bedtime routine at 7:10....she had a harder time settling this time, still got her to bed a little earlier. She decided at 3:40 she was waking up. :shrug: We let her fuss for a while, but she was standing up in her crib and not settling down, so I went in and put her on her back. I rubbed her hair and patted her belly. She would start to fall asleep but then would wake back up. After 20 minutes (and my back was breaking from bending over the crib that long) I tucked her in and left the room. The screaming began....then she fussed for another 20 minutes. So after all of that, she finally fell back asleep at 4:50 and then woke up at 5:35. At that point I just brought her to bed to nurse and the stinker decided to go back to sleep in the bed with me until after 7. 

So tomorrow I have to go to work for the day. First full day away from my sweetie in 10 weeks. :cry: She will be with my SIL, so hopefully naps will not be a total disaster and throw everything off.


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## seaweed eater

NotNic, I didn't respond to your update earlier. I'm so sorry F is suffering so badly with teething and everything!!! Poor baby and poor you! You must be exhausted. :hugs: I hope things are back to normal soon! Thank you for telling me about F's milk strike. I think you're right on all counts as usual! It has been warm here (though he's still been cuddly). Perhaps I should have somehow helped him transition to fewer larger feeds earlier...oh well, what's done is done. So funny about him sleeping sitting up. From what I've heard it tends to be really disruptive for only a few days to a week...so I'm hopeful that will be the case for us. I told my physical therapist about it today and he said Munchkin must have great neck control to be able to fall asleep like that without falling over, so that goes for F too :haha:

Lysh, soooo sorry about your rough night. :hugs: Earlier than 4 is just simply NOT OKAY. Babies? Are you reading this? It is NOT OKAY! :nope: I've decided not to lay mine down anymore. He can figure it out for himself. Let's see how long I last with that. :p

Bababas, how are things? :hugs:

Bedtime was much better tonight!! It took two attempts but he was asleep before 8. He seemed to have a lot more trouble with sitting up than with the lack of boob or bottle. He never cried very intensely and he kept falling asleep and then nodding himself awake. He even tried sleeping in the same position as yesterday but couldn't. In the end he fell asleep and then fell backward. Poor Munchkin! :( But after he'd calmed down he was able to go to sleep lying down.

Go figure, he took a 30-minute nap today. I feel like "overtired or undertired?" (as in, which one does he tend to be when we're having difficulties) continues to be one of the central questions in my uncertainty about his sleep. Add tonight to the tally for "undertired." The sleep consultant is going to say overtired but I don't know if I believe that!


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## stephie_corin

SE that's a long bedtime... I feel for all three of you. He seems to have one bad night and then things get better. Oh wait, I just read your next update! I'm glad to hear things improved! I have the overtired/undertired debate too. With longer awake times Cully naps better and falls asleep easier. I hope the sleep consultant is helpful!

NotNic, I hope you slept better last night!!

Lysh, that's interesting about your girl and the crawling. I think Cully will be the same. He's very proficient at cruising, crawling, climbing but when I try to 'walk him' he kicks his legs and giggles. I'm so sorry about your rough night. I can't remember if I suggested this before, but are you guys ok with part time bed sharing? What if you brought her to your bed if she wakes at 3/4/5 and you could nurse her back to sleep and get some more sleep yourself. I know it's not for everyone.

Amy, Bababas, I hope you guys had good naps and even better nights.

We had a slightly better night. I'm sure my husband has some kind of magic sleep touch. For the first time in a long time he put Cully back to sleep when he woke around 10.30. I tried but it was looking like another long MOTNer. I went to brush my teeth and left DH to it and I came back and Cully was asleep. He then slept from 10.45-1am! This had been the time for our worst MOTN parties. I also tried feeding him as soon as he woke up and it seemed to help with the wakings too - he was quite easy to settle until 530am when he needed some rocking and slept until 6.15am.


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## NotNic

Yay Stephie for Daddy's magic touch!!i have a theory behind this though. Daddies don't offer milk and the same type of cuddles as Mummies do, so less reason to stay awake. When they know it isn't Mummy attending them they tend to give in sooner. In my experience Daddies are better at winding too. I could take an hour trying to settle F and my husband would come in and have him asleep in 2 mins. The only problem is DH is a massive grouch if I wake him up and isn't very nice so I have to weigh up crying baby vs. stroppy husband! :D

Seaweed I try but believe me I get it wrong a lot! I'm just further ahead than you are and I think our little ones have a few similarities :) Finlay definitely has a strong neck. He's inherited his Daddy's rugby player frame! Very useful for rucking. (I think that's what it's called :haha:)

Last night was better. As usual he stirred when we went to bed but I gave him some nurofen when he was half asleep and apart from waking a little at 12.30 slept until just after 6am. His eyes didnt need cleaning like they have done for the last few days so the drops are working well too.


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## lysh

Will respond more later...have to go back to work today. :( DD was up at 4 again- patted her for 20 minutes and just finally went back to bed. She cried for less than 5 minutes this time and slept until 5:35...needless to say, mommy did not go back to sleep. I was too anxious at that point. Wish me luck...going back to work is harder this time than I thought it would be.


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## seaweed eater

Good luck Lysh. Just remember that it's harder for you than for her!! Especially after she slept well. :hugs: :hugs:


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## AmyS

NotNic - Sitting up before awake? Yikes. I'm not looking forward to that either! Glad you had a much better night - sounds like he is on the mend! 

lysh - I hope you both have a good day today! I can't imagine having the summer off and then going back full-time - that would be so hard!

SE - I have a hard time categorizing sleep troubles too - I tend to go with overtired during the week, but undertired on the weekends! 

Stephie - Yay for hubby!! I think it's perfectly okay to tell him it's now his job to put Cully back down when he wakes at night...I tried to tell mine that naps are his job now, because the past 2 times he's put Chloe to sleep for naps, she's slept for over 2 hours in her crib!!!
__________________

It seems like bedtime is getting harder now. She will almost fall asleep on the bottle, and then either be wide awake on her own, or like last night, the dog will start barking and wake her up. I think this might be my cue to start doing things differently - stop feeding her to sleep? 

As I said above, hubby put her down for her afternoon nap, and she slept for 2 hours in her crib! I couldn't believe it. She needed it, because she only slept for 20 minutes at daycare in the morning, but then I think she ended up being undertired at bedtime even though she was cranky and rubbing her eyes.


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## polaris

Hi everyone. I'm back online but I haven't really caught up properly yet. I had a lovely week with my mum and Clara's birthday was fantastic. Still can't believe she's a year old! Also Thomas is starting preschool on Monday so I have a lot of butterflies about that, really hope it goes well!

No real update on sleep. Clara is still sleeping very badly. I am blaming teething again for the moment.


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## NotNic

Glad Clara had a lovely birthday Polaris. Is Thomas excited about pre-school. Ah grown up babies!!

Amy - don't worry. Finlay seems to be a bit more extreme than most :D He always practices everything in his sleep. He claps and waves in his sleep and nursery have caught him dancing during nap time when he definitely is asleep! :haha: Noelle advised us to include lots and lots of practice of whatever skill he was working on during the daytime to get it out of his system. That helped a lot.

Seaweed - I was reading my reply before and I didn't mean to sound judgy about smaller feeds. I hope I didn't offend you. My bfing friends found that most of their babies started having less short feeds during the day around munchkins age and found life much easier to plan especially as they approached returning to work. It was something that happened naturally for them rather than them actually introducing it.

Lysh - good luck for today x


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## seaweed eater

NN, hon you certainly did not offend me! I've heard the same thing -- a friend of mine said that she had a biting problem around Munchkin's age that was solved by dropping from 4 feeds to 2 (ha!). Of course he won't take a single feed now so all I can do is wonder whether it would have helped if I'd made a change earlier...but I'll never know! Glad you guys had a better night :thumbup:

Polaris, glad you've had such a good week! Sorry about the bad sleep though. Blaming teething sounds entirely reasonable to me. IMO, when you are WIO it is important to always blame something (other than yourself). Seriously! Just pick whichever is most likely out of teething, development, illness, uncontrollable routine disruption, the seasons changing...at least one of those has to seem at least somewhat likely at any given time.

Amy, when Munchkin does that I say he's undertired :haha: glad she got a good nap in. Are you planning to work on not feeding to sleep, then?

Stephie, so glad to hear things went better for you last night. How interesting about your DH being able to get him back down! Munchkin never settles for DH. I hope tonight is even better :thumbup:

Munchkin was up at 5:20 and clearly was not ready to wake up. I think he sat up and was just not sleepy enough to go back to sleep at that time. There was a lot of traffic on the way to daycare this morning so he slept for nearly 25 minutes...I hope it doesn't mess up the rest of the day too badly. Still not nursing, but he's really starting to walk now so maybe if it was developmental, that will magically fix it?


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## polaris

Seaweed - I love your checklist of possible excuses for poor sleep! I just had to laugh because it really is such a guessing game really - pick the excuse that sounds most likely! So sorry that the nursing strike is continuing - but yay for proper walking! Clara doesn't crawl at all anymore, she just walks everywhere, it is amazing to me how quickly she went from not walking to walking competently because with Thomas that process took months! Very interesting that you are considering a sleep consultant - you will have to give us a blow by blow account if you go ahead with it, I would be fascinated to hear what the process involves and what they advise.

Stephie - I'm glad to hear that you had a slightly better night. Those MOTN parties are no fun. Although Cully's good nights are sadly a bit like Clara's good nights, i.e. still pretty rubbish. However, it is very promising that your DH was able to resettle him and that he slept for such a long stretch afterwards! Can I just ask, when you say you tried feeding him as soon as he woke up, was that different to what you had been trying? I am just asking out of curiosity because I have got into a habit of sticking a boob into Clara's mouth as soon as she stirs and I'm not sure if this is a bad idea in the long run?

Notnic - sorry that F has been under the weather and that teething is back with a vengeance. But wow, you are nearly done with teething already!! I keep counting how many teeth Clara has left to go and the answer is always "too many"!

Amy - sorry you are having bedtime difficulties - but great news that your DH was able to settle her for such a long nap in the crib!! I find the whole undertired/overtired thing so confusing!! I wish there was just an easy way to tell what was going on with them!!

Lysh :hugs: I hope today went smoothly with your return to work and that LO napped well with your SIL. I am already dreading going back to work in January.

So to update properly on Clara's sleep - I guess thinking about it there have been some improvements. She seems to be in a good routine in the daytime now, she gets up about 7.30 and naps for about an hour at 10 a.m. and about 1.5 hours at about 2.30 p.m. She will now nap in the carseat if we are out and about, which makes life a lot easier. She is settling fairly easily at bedtime too, going to bed between 8 and 8.30. (By the way, I finally got some decent audiobooks which are going down a treat with Thomas while I am upstairs getting Clara settled - so thank you to those who suggested audiobooks). Also she is generally doing 2 to 3 hours in the evenings before her first waking, which is a huge improvement. It's just after that that things go seriously downhill. At the moment she is generally sleeping until about 11 p.m. and then seems to wake up every 20 minutes or so for the rest of the night. I think that's an exaggeration but that's what it feels like. I don't know how she can sleep so soundly for naps and in the early evening and then wake up so often for the rest of the night. However the fact that she is now sleeping well in the early evening gives me hope because she never used to sleep well at that time.


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## lysh

Hey ladies...thank you all for your well wishes. Today went okay....I was more upset than DD. She cried when I was leaving and held her little hand out towards me, but DH said once I shut the door she was redirected and fine. Thankfully I have off tomorrow...it is nice having a day this week and only a day next week to get back into the swing of things. 

She only napped for 40 minutes today, so hopefully her night will not be too crazy. I will respond more tomorrow....I do not have the concentration to read carefully and respond as I have been up since 4, feeling a bit cross eyed!!! 

Sleep well ladies!


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## NotNic

Yay for Thomas liking the audio books! Finlay took an age to progress further than 2-3 steps. It was like he forgot he could do it as we would go days before he would try again. I think he was working on his balance as in that time he started being able to stand unsupported for a few mins at a time. On the Thursday before he walked he managed 10 steps (once then didnt try again) then all of a sudden on the Sunday he had a burst of walking. Then the next day he was just a walker. Nursery were amazed on the Wednesday as they'd never seen him take a step and now he was practically running. I would say indoors he walks 98% of the time. Outdoors he's better holding your hand. I think he gets too tired! Teeth wise we we've had 6 through since he was 13mths old! Before that he'd been a pretty slow teether


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## stephie_corin

Notnic, wonderful news that you are having better nights! I agree with you about daddies having less to offer than mummies! I really like that tip Noelle gave you about practising the skills they are working on. It's a good one.

Lysh, I'm glad your girl was ok with you going back to work. It's so hard. I hope she sleeps later for you tonight and you aren't so tired. I have no idea how I am going to function at work in two months... Sleep deprivation turns me into a complete idiot who can't string sentences together. You're doing amazingly well! 

Amy, I think this age is characterised by a much greater awareness of the world around them. I'm finding bedtime really hard too. I don't know what the answer is! Maybe experiment with a longer awake time. How is her self settling going? Do you put her awake in her bed? What is daycare doing now?

Polaris! Welcome back :) I'm sorry Clara is still sleeping so badly. Feeding him immediately is different to what I had been trying. I usually only feed him if he is rooting around. Normally I try and jiggle him lying down or sit up and rock him (and rock him and rock him). This last few days I've been feeding him as soon as he stirs and he settles so much quicker (except during the MOTN parties). I know it's not hunger at the other times because he latches for a minute then falls asleep. I don't know which is better long term to be honest. I feel your frustration about day sleep vs night sleep. Cully has been asleep for 1.5 hours and only fed back to sleep once after 20 minutes. He goes down so easily for his nap too. I don't know why night time is so difficult for these two. Oh, and we are also getting a good 2-3 hour sleep in the early evening! 

SE, I'm also intrigued about the sleep consultant! I can't wait to hear about it. I'm sad he hasn't stated nursing yet. I'm going to check out your other thread after this. Boo hoo for the early wake up. He probably really needed the sleep in the car. 

Our MOTN parties are continuing. He was awake three hours last night. It's becoming too much. I'm going to stretch his awake times as long as possible and see if that helps. It might be the wrong approach but I feel like he's undertired (oh, the eternal debate!). 10 hours awake time is too short for him. I feel like he would sleep better on two naps but he's still refusing an afternoon nap. This morning he was awake from 6.20am - 11.10am (happily) which is almost 5 hours. I'll aim for 6.5 this evening (which is what he's happily been doing) and hopefully the extra 1.5 hours awake might stop the MOTN parties.

He also surprised me yesterday by standing independently for about 10 seconds so maybe I was wrong about the developmental stuff causing MOTNers.


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## kosh

just wondering how many of you ladies have LOs that are >18 months?
:flower:


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## lysh

AmyS- It is hard transitioning from a SAHM to a working mom. However, at the same time I am grateful I am in a profession where I have that opportunity. As painful as the transition is, I would not give up the 10 weeks I got to stay home with her. I try to remember that when I feel really down about leaving her.
Now that bedtime is getting harder for your LO, it might be a good opportunity to break the feeding to sleep habit. If it is not working anyways anymore, might as well, right? I figured when things consistently get difficult with dd, I will break the nursing to sleep, but as long as it keeps working I am sticking with it for now!
That is amazing that your LO slept for 2 hours!!!!!! 

Polaris- Wow, good luck to Thomas! I think as parents, we are probably more nervous than the children with new things!!! How long have you been a SAHM? I find once I get into the swing of things, it does get easier, however Mondays continue to be the hardest. Glad naps are getting better for dd, now she just needs to lesson her nightime wakings! From what I have read in the past, the first stretch of sleep is usually the deepest. That use to be my DD's longest stretch of sleep and then it would go downhill.

Notnic- So I guess you found once your LO got the confidence he took off? My LO has been progressing with walking for the last week....some days she seems to want to take independent steps more than others. Right now she is more into having me hold her hands while she walks. I am waiting for her to just decide she can do this herself and then take off!! Congrats on your son walking! Exciting!

Stephie- 3 hour MOTN party????? Poor momma!!!! Keep trying different things...my LO surprises me with how long she can stay awake. She does get a grumpy and a bit overtired, but she actually did sleep better last night even though she had a short nap. I am the same way BTW....I loose brain cells and I have a hard time functioning on lack of sleep....I struggled at work at first, but somehow adjusted well enough to be fairly competent!!! 

So DD slept from 7:45-5:35. We started her bedtime routine at 7:05- she was so tired from not napping much that she was asleep rather quickly. It is unfortunate that I woke up at 3:40 and then was anxious that she would wake up, so I had a hard time falling asleep. Then when I finally did fall back asleep, our cat decided to start meowing at the top if his lungs. :coffee:


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## AmyS

NotNic - Dancing in his sleep is so awesome!! What a cutie! I do try to practice her new skills when she's home with me, but I'm pretty sure the daycare people are too lazy to help with that!

SE - I would feel better about stopping feeding to sleep if she was more established on solids. And, I'm terrified to change her routine!! I'm so glad they can't talk at this age, because she'd probably tell me I was a mean mommy! haha

polaris - Glad Clara is getting a good stretch of sleep at the beginning, but the rest of the night sounds rough! To me it sounds like she's tired enough to stay sleeping for naps and the first part of the night, but her developmental stuff is keeping her up after that because she is better rested? Does that make sense? (And I don't ever have a clue about what's going on, just speculation.) So glad the audiobooks were a hit!!

Stephie - I put her in bed awake for one nap last weekend, and she fell asleep in 10 minutes with a little fussing. I haven't tried nights though. She is still self-settling for all but one or two wakings at night. I think I need to cap naps at 3:30 from now on! And if she doesn't sleep at daycare, then bedtime will just have to be at 6pm. 

Three hours for you last night?? How are you handling this, poor girl? I think I would try the longer wake times too, and lots of standing practice! He probably is mentally gearing up to move those cute baby feet forward and start running on you!

lysh - Thank goodness you have today off, being up that early! I sometimes have a hard time getting back to sleep too if I think she's gonna be up soon. And the cat, that's something I forgot they do. I haven't had a cat in years. Sometimes I could kill the dog for barking right when I get her to sleep, but it's hard to stay mad at their furry faces.
_____________________

Last night was another hard night to settle. She didn't sleep much at daycare, and hubby had put her to sleep before I got home, so she ended up with another late nap from 4:45-5:30pm. Then she was soooo cranky and tired, that I tried to put her down at 7pm - didn't work. But then she was in a great mood, and so funny! Finally got her down at 8pm, and she woke up once at 4am, so I fed her, and she was back to sleep until 6:30am.

My plan now to try is: I will feed her out in the bright living room when she starts to get cranky, probably about 7pm. Then, I'll read her a book and let her crawl around with the lights dimmed. Then when she starts acting cranky again, I'll rock her for a few minutes and put her in her crib and see what happens. If it doesn't work well this time, I'll try again in a week or two. I'm not in any hurry to make this change, and I think when she's ready, she'll transition easily. (Haha, yes, I'm delusional! Or just overly optimistic!)


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## seaweed eater

Polaris, I'm glad there has been a little improvement with C's sleep, and that you're in a regular routine -- that always helps me feel like things are more under control. And so glad the audiobooks are helping!! :thumbup: Sorry about the every 20 minutes still though. That is so rough and you deserve a medal for doing it night after night AND being a wonderful parent to two all day. Hope Monday goes well :hugs: transitions are tough but, as you already know, with some time you get through it, and often you get closer and see new interesting sides of each other in the process.

Lysh, congrats on surviving your first day! :hugs: I'm glad you get a slow start back. Glad the night was ok but sorry you were awake so early. That happens to me too sometimes since Munchkin tends to have a NW in the early morning. What if you don't look at the clock unless LO is awake? Do you think that would help?

NotNic, Polaris, and Lysh - yeah, it's funny about the walking. Munchkin is starting very gradually, which I knew to expect by now since that's how he seems to pick up all of his skills. He's been able to take a few wobbly steps for a couple months, and took his first real independent steps about a month ago! He still likes to hold my hand when he can, but he's voluntarily walking across the room by himself now. I think it will be a gradual process of starting to use it instead of crawling more and more of the time. Must be so funny to have one of those babies who "just takes off"!

Stephie, sooo sorry about your MOTNs :hugs: three hours is really too much. I still can't believe you rock him that whole time. I think it's good that you are not letting him get up and play, but how exhausting! Might as well try more awake time. I hope it works for you guys. He will be walking in no time!

Kosh, not me, sorry. I think some of the babies from the original group are getting close to 18 months though (and some maybe over 18 -- I joined late so I don't know everyone who was here). Maybe have a look through the earlier pages and try some PMs? The toddler section might have more help, too.

Amy, what about just giving C her bottle earlier in the routine, not cutting it out altogether? Do you think she would not take as much? I understand not feeling in a hurry about it though. And I don't think it's delusional to expect it to be easy once she's ready, because it seems like that's been the pattern with her so far. Either way, personally my feeling is that it's ok if she thinks you're a mean mommy sometimes! Sometimes meeting their needs means we can't give them everything they want...I'm sure we'll all be facing this situation more often into the toddler years! :p

AFU - hold onto your hats, because this is going to be a novel!

First an update. Bedtime last night was just awful. Not in the usual way, either. LO calmed down relatively quickly (I mean, he did complain for several minutes, but not for too long) but then he spent TWO HOURS trying to fall asleep sitting up. :( It was so frustrating for me and must have been a million times more so for him! I actually left his room and let DH handle it after an hour and a half. My patience was wearing thin and I needed to pump. He even fell down two or three times but then popped right back up!! Eventually he fell asleep sitting up and DH moved him.

He slept until 6:05 and then went back to sleep until 7:15. :shock: It's probably because he went to sleep so late (close to 10) but it was still very weird!

He has also fallen asleep in my arms three times in the past 2 days, which is completely unlike him. But very sweet! But bizarre. I mean crawling up to me and falling asleep in my arms while we're just playing on the floor -- not when I'm trying to hold him and rock him or anything. It seems like it must be linked to not nursing somehow, like he needs to learn a different way of being comforted.

Now about the sleep consultant -

DH and I decided to go ahead, and we had our consultation today. Let me give a little more background first. Part of the reason we decided to do it is that we found this particular consultant. Based on her association with a particular parenting style (RIE) I felt pretty certain that we would be well aligned on basic values and fundamentals. My sense is that most sleep consultants just tell you to CIO, and I have no interest in that. Also, I've felt like my approach to sleep falls somewhere between strict sleep training and WIO -- I want to be responsive but also have firm boundaries -- and I've struggled with the balance, especially when I don't know many other parents who have a similar perspective, so I thought it would be interesting to hear from an "expert" in that approach.

She offers a few different plans, but what we had was a single 1-hour consultation session. She sent us a questionnaire in advance (e.g., daily schedule, where does baby sleep, do you have a bedtime routine etc) and then formulated a plan for us based on that and went through it during the session. She will also send articles and worksheets on what we talked about. We can purchase follow-up support calls separately if we need to.

We're going to have one more night of doing what we've been doing, and then make some changes starting tomorrow night:

- I'm not going to stay in the room anymore. If he's getting really upset I will go in and sit with him, possibly pick him up, and offer reassurance (not milk), but never take him outside the room and always leave while he's awake. Basically this means finishing off the gradual retreat plan, since I never did finish it!

- No milk from bedtime until 6 AM :shock:

- Try putting him down earlier (I am skeptical, but I'll give it a try)...look for "soft signs of sleep" such as staring into space and looking peaceful and contemplative, which come before eye rubbing (which is the first one we usually look for). The only reason I think this might ever work is that she said that if you miss the window, it takes 90 minutes for them to be ready to sleep again, which certainly seems consistent with my experience.

She also really emphasized talking about the whole thing a lot with him...not just while it's going on (which I've already been doing a lot of -- e.g. "I see that you are very frustrated right now as you're trying to go to sleep. I'm sorry it is tough tonight. I'm here and I love you.") but also before and after. So, telling him beforehand, repeatedly and in detail, what's going to change and what's going to happen instead; and debriefing in the morning, to help him process it and also so he knows (to the extent he can understand the language, of course) that I really was listening to him from outside. I haven't experimented very much with this kind of thing so I'm interested to see whether it will make a difference.

She also said the sitting up stuff is just developmental and we have to wait for it to pass on its own, which is kind of what I thought...oh well :dohh:

Was that "blow by blow" enough for you, Polaris? :haha: Let me know if any of you have other questions. I'm apprehensive but excited about giving it a try, because I really do think he is ready for me to not be in the room anymore, especially after last night.


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## AmyS

SE - Wow, I can't wait to see your update on this! It's a big change from what you've been doing. I usually wait until eye rubs to put Chloe down, maybe I need to be looking for the "peaceful and contemplative" look. It was funny when I read that, because immediately a picture of a baby wearing Hugh Hefner's pajamas with a smoking pipe popped into my head.


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## polaris

SE, thanks so much for giving us all the details from your consultation. I am really looking forward to hearing how it goes for you. It actually sounds really similar to the approach that I took with Thomas - it worked so well with him so I am optimistic that it will work for Munchkin. 

I actually feel quite jealous that you have a definite plan, even though I'm WIO at present. I am so ready for getting more sleep but I just can't seem to get my head around actually doing anything about it, or even what would be the right thing to do if I did want to do anything. At the moment I just can't imagine being able to leave Clara alone to go to sleep.

MOTN party last night for about two hours, yawn! I was just saying to Stephie that at least we weren't having them at the moment. Remind me never to comment on things like that again!! I largely ignored her and pretended to be asleep and just let her crawl round the bed chatting away to herself. She actually didn't get upset, just didn't seem sleepy. I did wonder if she was overtired as she only had one nap yesterday because I couldn't get her down for her morning nap and then we had visitors so she just stayed up until 1.20 p.m. when they left.


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## stephie_corin

Lysh she slept pretty well! That's great! It's awful when they are sleeping and you're awake. And the cat! We have two and (I love them but) they can be so annoying! I like SE's suggestion of not looking at the clock. 

Amy, I think your plan is a good one and I think you're taking a good approach by trying again if it doesn't work this time. Cully has actually fallen asleep a few times not feeding by following that exact approach, but I rock him until he's asleep and don't put him down awake. 

SE, thanks for the detailed update. I think keeping them in the bedroom for wind down is really important, particularly if they are sensitive to stimulus. I rarely leave the bedroom after bath time with Cully unless it's something stupid like I think I've left the oven on. When our AC was broken a few weeks back, just moving him downstairs added hours to his bedtime. What did she make of his one nap? Did she have any opinion on naps affecting night sleep?

I wish Cully had a Hugh Hefner moment each night :)

Polaris, I am SO sorry about your MOTN party! It's such a cruel twist of fate when you're already exhausted. I hope it doesn't happen again tonight! I wish I could just pretend to be asleep but I think I'd actually fall asleep and Cully would fall off the bed! Did she put herself to sleep or did you nurse her once she got it out of her system? 

I'm feeling a bit despondent about sleep. Usually I'm full of optimism and think 'tonight's finally the night'. He's so happy and in such good spirits in the day - he charms everyone we meet - so I guess I can console myself that he's getting enough sleep (somehow!).


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## polaris

Steph, I'm sure I did actually doze off for some of it. She's able to get on and off the bed herself though and it's very low to the ground anyway so I'm not too worried even if she did fall off. 

I actually thought she might put herself back to sleep but she wasn't showing any signs, so yes, I nursed her back to sleep after she got whatever it was out of her system!


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## stephie_corin

Thanks Polaris :) I'm trying to teach Cully to get off the bed but he still barrels off head first and we have tiled floors. Only two days ago he actually did fall out of bed just before his nap! Silly boy.


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## polaris

Clara gets off head first too - but she does it in a controlled way if you know what I mean. I have the foam alphabet tiles on the floor so it's a soft landing if she does bump herself. I have the same beside Thomas's bed - he has fallen out of bed a couple of times and they really do break the fall!


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## lysh

SE- Thanks for sharing all of that information! I wish you luck with the changes.I am curious how putting him down earlier will help.....we are still working on putting DD down earlier...tonight was the earliest. Thank you for the suggestion...this mornign I tried not looking at the clock when I woke up, but I still could not go back to sleep. I just was lying there wondering what the time was and still waiting for her cry!!!! lol 

Polaris- I sometimes find that when we have guests over or there is something new and extra stimulating going on that it effects my LOs sleep. That could have been the cause of the MOTN party- some babies are just extra sensitive! It is sometimes hard/confusing in deciding how to handle sleep issues. I have gone back and forth on so many things this past year. We did do some sleep training before I went back to work, but as far as the other issues (nursing to sleep, early wake-ups, nap issues) I am kind of in the WIO stage. 

Stephie- Good for you for keeping a positive attitude most of the time. I think being despondent every now and then is normal...especially when so tired all of the time!

Well, dd had a late nap yesterday and was hard to put down...did not get her down until 9. She stayed in bed until almost 6 though! I, of course, woke up again. Did not look at the time, but still was anxiously waiting for the cry. Today was more of a normal day and we had her in her crib by 7:40...earliest time yet, so we shall see!!!!!


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## seaweed eater

First bedtime done...he actually cried less than the past few nights, but he did poop. I'm a little bummed about the poop but at least there was no vomit, and it's no better or worse than that, right? :(

He cried for 15 mins at first and then probably another 5 min or so altogether...lots of silence...all in all he was asleep (lying down!!) ~35-40 minutes after I'd put him down, including the diaper change. I went in three times and picked him up each time.

We had 4 pretty long conversations about it beforehand, including two "walk throughs" where I told him in detail how the routine was going to go and what the changes were going to be, and pointed to where I used to sit on his floor and said that I wouldn't be sitting there anymore but instead would be outside listening, etc.

He actually STTN last night so hopefully tonight won't be too rough in terms of any NWs. It probably will be, though, cause that's how these things go. :(

As usual, I fear the secret scorn of all you saintly WIOers...going to take some deep breaths and eat a bowl of oatmeal!


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## gaiagirl

Hey guys! Just checking in!

SE - interesting to read her input! Glad it was better, no scorn from me! I am no saint, lol. Sleep is hard, so hard. You do what you gotta do. I really hope this new approach works because I know how hard you've been working on his bedtimes. You deserve a happy ending!

We are currently on vacation with my parents. Fun, except how long the drive was to get here ugh. Why does my kid refuse to just peacefully drift off to sleep in his carseat like other babies!?!? So ridiculous.

Also, my parents don't outright say they think I'm insane...but they do. So a whole long weekend of judgement over our sleep arrangements and how much support F needs with sleep is a bit tiring. Sighhhh.

I will say though, I'm sure glad I nurse to sleep and bedshare because I can pretty much guarantee he would not be sleeping this whole trip otherwise! Lol. It's been so disruptive but to him, wherever I am, is fine. Phew!

Lysh I HATE that sleeplessness waiting for baby to wake up. It sucks!

Stephie, three hours!?!?!? That's a crazy motn party. Have we talked before about first and second sleep? How many humans used to sleep in two chunks with a 2-3 hour awake period between? Honestly sometimes F is just up and happy to be up for 1-2 hours and I try to discourage but really, it's not that uncommon in human history so kinda interesting.

Anyways, I'm still reading often just not always chiming in!


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## polaris

SE, I am sooo so not secretly scornful, honestly I am a bit jealous of your resolve! If I thought Clara would respond quickly and (reasonably) easily to sleep training I really think I would be doing it. I just honestly don't feel that I can do it again after the lack of lasting success from our last traumatic experience, which involved pretty much a full night of crying on the first night - and a lot of crying on subsequent nights too. :cry:

Lysh, my older boy was always affected by new stuff, he is definitely highly sensitive. I always think Clara takes it all in her stride because she doesn't seem phased by anything when she's awake, but maybe you have a point. Sorry that you are still having early wakings even though LO is sleeping later!

Amy, I'm so interested in hearing about your progress in moving gradually away from feeding to sleep. Good luck, I hope it goes well.

Our night wasn't great, I think her teeth were bothering her again. I should have given pain relief really but I was too tired to get it together. She self-settled at bedtime so as always I was hopeful for a good night but no such luck.


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## stephie_corin

Lysh, I can't wait to hear how she slept with the earlier bedtime. I'm keeping my fingers crossed for you! Thanks so much for the support. Sometimes it's hard to stay positive and I love this little group of sleep deprived mammas for those tough times.

SE, that sounds like amazing progress. Usually your first night of a new routine is the worst, so hopefully things will just get better and better for you! I don't need to say that there is no scorn from me - you know that already. 

Gaia, I hope you're having a wonderful vacation! Cully also refuses to sleep in the car. I fear and avoid long car trips like the plague. It's a shame about your parents but you aren't alone there. I think their generation just did things very differently than what is now considered an acceptable (at least in some circles!) approach to sleep. I've read a bit about segmented sleep and it's so interesting... But sadly for Cully I'm not prepared to chill with him at midnight. I'm too tired! He'd probably be really happy if we just let him cruise around but DH and I are both nervous it will become an every night occurrence.

Polaris, I often forget to give pain relief too. It's hard when you're so tired and you're just focused on getting them back to sleep. Good luck to your gorgeous boy tomorrow! I hope you and Clara have a lovely time together and don't miss him too much. I bet he has a blast! 

So, we had no MOTN party last night. He was waking every 20 minutes until around 1030pm when I gave him nurofen. He's teething (I think) but we can't see any new teeth cutting through. He's got the little bumps on his front gum so I guess they might make an appearance soon. Did I mention I hate teething? Lol. The upside is he slept 1-1.5 hour stretches all night and then I got him back to sleep at 6am and he slept until 650am!

Can I talk nap transitions? I'm sure now I've said this he will go back to two naps but I really believe we are in the middle of the one nap transition ... But in fast forward mode. I find it bizarre that only a month and a half ago I was feeling guilty because he wanted to take 3 naps and now we are at one nap. But here we are and he has happily stayed awake 5 hours before his nap these last two days. He's gone from fighting me putting him down (and trust me, I've nursed, rocked, bounced) but clearly needing a nap (tired and cranky morning and night), to happily staying awake 4 and now 5 hours in the space of a few weeks. This morning I feel like he could have stayed up even longer, but maybe that was the extra sleep he got after 6am.

I'm feeling more positive about daycare now and that he will be able to last until 1230 by the time he is 12 months old. I hope my confidence isn't misplaced! If it is, we've got a plan but it would be nice if the daycare transition went smoothly. 

I feel it's a little crazy that my ten month old only wants one nap. It's not like circumstances have dictated his sleep schedule and he has to stay awake that long. He's just not interested in taking a morning nap.


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## lysh

SE- No scorn!!! I did some sleep training in the past before going back to work. She was 4 1/2 months (many people would have my head for that). We needed her in her crib. Not sure if that is sleep training, but we did CC to get her to stay in her crib. When she was a little older, we then did CC to spread out feedings to 2 1/2 hour stretches because I honestly could not function at home/work. Even 2 1/2 hour stretches were rough!! If she does not naturally stop nursing to sleep, at some point we might have to revisit some sort of training. However, since that will be the last nursing we will eliminate, we have some time.

Gaia- I dread long car trips (anything past 20 minutes) for the same reason. My dd hated the carseat from the beginning. The minute we left the hospital, she screamed the entire way home and that continued! She is finally getting better and occasionally has fallen asleep with minimal crying, but depends on her mood.

Polaris- Hopefully this teething will calm down soon!!!

Stephie- I say feel it out with the one nap- some babies just do not follow what the 'experts' say is best!!!

Last night was great! She only napped for 1 1/2 hours- she slept from 11 to 12:30. We started her bedtime routine at 7 and she was asleep by 7:45 (earliest yet). She slept until 5:45- 10 hours!! That is huge for her. Today we are going to my BILs house during naptime, so we will see how this will affect her. Plus it is an hour drive to get there......she is not a fan of car rides!


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## seaweed eater

Thanks guys :hugs: sorry to be fishing for reassurance...just keeping it real!

The rest of the night went well. He woke up once and fussed on and off for about 20 minutes, then started crying so I went in and gave him a hug and some water, and he went back to sleep. Up at 6:10!

Nap was tougher. After about 35 minutes (and a couple checks) I went in and stayed until he fell asleep. It just seemed like too much...and I know that taking on nights and naps at the same time is a lot anyway. Better luck next time :shrug:

Polaris, really sorry about your MOTN and possible teething. :hugs: I'm glad C wasn't upset during the MOTN at least. I still think the self-settling progress is going to pay off. Someday she WILL be sleeping through the night in her own bed, and however she makes that transition, I think it will be easier as a result of the skills she's building now.
Will be thinking of you and Thomas tomorrow! Best of luck :hugs:

Stephie, I'm sorry you have been feeling down. :hugs: I find it goes in cycles...and sometimes it helps to just acknowledge that it does, and that you'll likely feel better about things again. Does that help you at all, or is it just me?

I think you can trust your intuition about the naps, as crazy as it might feel. I kept reminding myself of that during the long painful 3-2 transition...I know I didn't just make this whole thing up! Also FWIW, Munchkin's napping pattern has definitely shifted, and he still gets tired in the mornings. He has that 5-min nap on the way to daycare, and we've been replicating that on weekends because I don't think he can make it through without it. (But if he took a full nap, he would refuse his second one.) So I think if Cully is happy and seems to be doing well, you are in even better shape! And it doesn't sound like he is having way too much total WT or anything like that.

Regarding the crawling off the bed discussion, our mattress is on the ground too, and of course Munchkin visits during the day even though he doesn't sleep there. He has a couple ways of getting off, one of which is to start headfirst, get his hands down, and then sort of turn sideways and swing his legs around. It's clever! The other way is more cautious: he sits up and shuffles to the edge and then eases himself down on his bottom. We do have carpet so that probably helped us feel better about letting him practice -- there have been plenty of minor spills. Foam alphabet tiles sound like a great idea.

Lysh, I'm sorry you had trouble sleeping again Friday night :hugs: it really is tough when you know you're on call, and it's such a pain to wake up after only sleeping a few minutes. Hopefully she will keep staying in bed later and your body will get used to it. I'm so glad to hear the earlier night went well!! Hope today goes well with the drive and everything.

Gaia, I'm sorry about the judgment from your parents. I completely empathize. My parents are very pro sleep training, and TBH I don't think any of us had the sleep challenges that Munchkin does! There have been plenty of times when they've said something snide or looked at me like I'm crazy for what I do to accommodate him. You really can't please everyone! I'm sorry about the car rides, too...it's really convenient to be able to plan long drives around naps.

Hope everyone else is having a good weekend :hugs:


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## AmyS

SE - Thanks for all the details on your progress! You already know you're getting no judgment from me either!


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## seaweed eater

How is everyone doing today? :hugs:

Night 2 was about the same as night 1. Bedtime, 20 mins of crying (I went in twice) then asleep. Awake around 3, drank a little water then back to sleep. The difference is that this morning he was up at 5:10...I went in a few times but he wasn't going back to sleep. I think he was hungry. I made it to about 5:50 before taking him out and giving him milk. Close enough to 6 for today.

He also clearly understands more about what's going on than the previous times we've done any kind of sleep training, which is tough :( he started getting a bit upset during the bedtime routine. I hope that goes away as he gets more used to going to sleep on his own. If not, it's kind of a dealbreaker for me...we will go back to having me stay in the room if that's what it takes for bedtime to be positive and relaxing. But obviously I will keep trying this until he is settling more easily.


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## stephie_corin

Lysh, what wonderful news!! I hope she continues to sleep well for you! How was her nap today? Did the visit affect it too badly? I hope not. Thanks for reassuring me about the one nap. We are GWTF so I guess this is his decision :)

SE, I agree that it makes sense to leave his nap for now. How is he settling after his water at the NW? Do you leave the room again? I'm sorry he was becoming upset last night during your routine. That's really hard. I know you've received expert advice so I'm not sure if this has been covered but I wonder if some relaxing music at low volume in his room might help to create a relaxing environment while you are outside the room? Although maybe he'd find it too stimulating. 

Amy, how is the not feeding to sleep going? 

To be honest, I'm not feeling down ... I just wish there was something I could do to fix his sleep! 

We are definitely in acute teething territory. He is waking really frequently until I give iboprufen. I gave it to him at 10pm last night and he slept 2 hour stretches until 4.30 am when I had to hold him - I guess the medicine was wearing off. No MOTN parties though :)

We did 5 then 6 hours awake and he took a fantastic nap - 2 hours with minimal assistance from me. 

Something interesting just happened too - I didn't pick him up (NW number 3 within 1.5 hours of bed - poor baby) and he rolled around for ages, held my hand and then fell asleep! He did wake 5 minutes later but I thought that was great progress! I really really need to introduce a lovey - he seems really upset when I'm not there when he wakes, and is holding on to my shirt as he falls asleep.


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## lysh

I will write more later...right now I need to vent. I am just so done with nap struggles. I need a freaking break.....for 13 1/2 months this child has taken every ounce of energy out of me. I worked hard to BF, not an easy start, which led to me being the only one who could put her to sleep, comfort her during her million wake-ups, and help her nap. I held her for almost 8 straight months for naps, because it was such a freaking battle to get her into her crib. The rest of the months were hit and miss. And because she went to bed late and woke up so early I had to try to manage the rest of my life during her waking hours. I am tired. I am so done with BFing right now and naps. I got a 30 minute nap out of her in her crib after 2 failed attempts in which I ran around like a lunatic trying to get my wash in the laundry and mop floors. That is about all I got done. Did I say I am tired????? WIth work starting I am just seeing another LONG year of this crap. I almost lost my mind last year, trying to manage my job, the house, and my daughter's high needs. I cannot function like this and yet I have no idea what to do with her. I try to be patient, but right now I am not feeling it. DH does not fully understand because he can easily leave the room to get done what he needs to get done while I am stuck on the couch with her attached to my boob so she will nap. 
ugh
Vent over.
Usually I am positive but I am ready to hide in a corner at the moment.


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## lysh

And we are in the middle of total separation anxiety, which means when she is awake she is clinging to my legs. :/


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## mellyboo

Just when we were starting to sleep so well she starts teething and mess's everything up i've been pulling all nighters... i'm so tired :( i just want a proper time to sleep train her ... nothing seems to work!! i'm getting fed up shes almost 1 year old for goodness sakes!


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## seaweed eater

Sorry melly :hugs: sounds exhausting! I hope things get better soon.

Lysh, vent away :hugs: :hugs: you have a lot on your plate and I can tell you've been pulling off a really delicate balance all these months. It sucks to have to work so hard and have no one really understand. Congrats on getting through the rest of the day. Is there anything more you can get from your DH? What if you tell him that you can't explain it to him but you really are not coping well and need more help, if not from him then from somewhere? Or something like that?
I wouldn't assume that you have another year of things staying the same. Your daughter's going to grow and change a lot this year. Maybe things won't get easier...but they will be different. But if you're not happy with how things are now, then that's a reason to reach out for some help. :hugs:


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## stephie_corin

Lysh, from one mama with a high needs baby to another, I get it. And I'm not even at work yet. It's so hard trying to manage their needs with your own. I know you're just having a down day but I do agree with SE that asking for help when you need it is important. I also think (hope!) the next 12 months will be easier. I can't remember if you have a baby carrier? Would wearing her in the carrier help you get some things done around the house (or even go for a nice relaxing walk?). Does DH give you a break on weekends? Hubby and I have started giving each other some 'me time' on the weekends. We each watch our son for an hour or two and the other goes and does something completely alone - gym, read a book in a cafe. It's such a good mental break for me. Big hugs to you.

Melly, teething is the worst! There's also loads of developmental stuff going on between 9-12 months - I'm sure you've seen a huge change in her. I hope things sort themselves out soon. 

SE, how was your night? Amy?

Polaris, how did Thomas do at preschool? I hope he had a blast and Clara is letting you get some sleep.

I can't believe I'm going to write this: we had a good night!!! Stay away curse!! He didn't take any pain meds and I decided to snuggle him all night because he naps well like that and between 11-4 he woke a handful of times but I snuggled him/fed him back to sleep so I barely remember it!


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## polaris

Lysh :hugs: I agree with the others, whatever the next 12 months hold, it won't be the same, she will be getting older and yes there will be new challenges but some of the things that are really stressful now will resolve themselves. Having said that, you just sound exhausted. Is there anything that you can do to take the pressure off a little bit? I remember trying to juggle everything when I was back working after Thomas and it is SOOO hard. I was just so exhausted all the time, people would tell me to take time for myself but honestly once I had done a week's work and looked after my family and the household, I hadn't an ounce of energy to do anything else. And Thomas was a good sleeper by that stage! The other thing that I found really tough was that Thomas would be great all day for whoever was looking after him and then turn into an emotionally unbalanced limpet (stuck to my leg and having a meltdown every five minutes) as soon as I walked in the door at 5 p.m. So you really have my sympathies. It's not easy.

Mellyboo - teething sucks. You have my sympathies too. I can relate all too well!!

Stephie - yay!! I'm so pleased you had a better night! Maybe he just needs the extra security of being snuggled against you at the moment? I would definitely go with that if it works, he won't need it forever.

Thomas's first day at preschool went very well. He was very impressed with their collection of sea creature toys and got to play with sand and water. He was happy to go off again this morning - yay, so far so good!! He's exhausted though, as am I. Clara slept slightly better last night but made up for it by waking up at 5.45 a.m. for the day. Yawn.


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## lysh

SE- Thank you, yes DH and I have had talks. He knows I get overwhelmed with everything. Sometimes it just frustrates me because he will try to sympathize, but he really has no idea how challenging it is to balance everything. It is not his fault, it is just the way things are- but still!

Stephie- Thank you, I do have a baby carrier- 4 different kinds to be exact!! :haha: When she was a colicky newborn I tried whatever I could to help. She hated carriers when she was younger. Now, she will tolerate my Becco, but only on my front (which makes it hard to get anything done with a 21 pound baby attached to my front). I tried the back carry with it and she is not thrilled, plus I have a hard time getting her into it on my back. I have wraps that I have tried- my SIL is amazing with the wrap. I thought LO might respond to the wrap better since it molds to her body more, but I cannot figure it out for my life- SIL and I tried to practice, but DD was very wiggly and would get frustrated! I actually tried the wrap yesterday on my own and it was a disaster! 
My DH and I will take turns getting up in the mornings so we can sleep in or whatever. If I wanted to go out and do something, I could- but honestly, the main issue is not that I need a break outside of the house as much as I need to be able to do what I need to do inside the house. 

So glad to hear you had a good night!!!! It is so well-deserved!!!!

Polaris- Thank you, I feel the same way. I just have no energy to go out and do things. DH was trying to convince me to sign up for a yoga class on the weekends to relax and get a break, but as terrible as this sounds, I just do not feel like I have the energy/time to bother right now!!!

Glad the first day of preschool went well!!!

Thank you for 'reading' my vent yesterday. I feel better today. I also felt terrible, because LO ended up developing a fever during the day and there I was feeling overwhelmed and impatient. Other than naps, she slept well at night so I should not be complaining. DH was able to occupy her for a bit yesterday so I was able to get some things done around the house (as long as we were in different rooms, she was okay). If she sees me she freaks! I am hoping this year will be a bit easier than last year now that she is getting older. I have to stay optimistic I guess! 
The naps are hard and that is honestly what makes it so hard for me during the work year, but she is getting older, starting to walk so things can change. 

Thanks again ladies!!! Hopefully this will be a meltdown free day!


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## AmyS

polaris - Sorry about your motn party the other night! Just reading about them caused us to have a 3 hour one Friday night.

lysh - So sorry that you were having a rough moment! I hope you can find some way to relieve the stress. Going back to work on top of everything might help - it does give me a mental break after a long weekend (if she's being overly cranky).

SE - So glad that things seem to be working for you! I agree with you about having bedtime be positive instead of dreaded. Do you plan on giving it a certain number of days before you change your routine? 

Stephie - I think that Cully will do fine at daycare! There is so much more stimulation, that they probably wouldn't be able to put him down if they tried. I agree with the lovey - Chloe absolutely loves hers - and she will grab it on her own if she's tired. I sleep with whatever one she isn't using so that it smells like me (so hubby makes fun of me because I sleep with a lovey now too!). It does sound like he is making great progress though!!

Gaia - So sorry about your parents not supporting you! 
__________________

Eeek - I made a plan, and then didn't follow it! Just when I thought she would never fall asleep on the bottle again, she is back to it. I am not very willing to change if she isn't leading the change, because she won't drink more than an ounce or two if it's not nap or night time. Maybe that would change if I didn't feed her to sleep, and then she'd be hungier at those other times. I have been obsessed with her feedings since birth, because when she came home she wasn't even eating an ounce at a time. It's hard to let go! I see other moms here posting about their schedules - and we don't have any kind of schedule. 

Sleep - Friday night, we had our own little 3 hour motn party. I swear she reads here in her spare time, and thought she needed to have a little fun too! 

Naps - she took 2 awesome naps in her crib on Saturday, then wouldn't let me put her down the rest of the weekend (which included Monday too, since it was Labor Day).


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## stephie_corin

Polaris, I'm so glad that Thomas had a lovely time! Wonderful news! Sorry that you are so tired though! The early starts are tough, especially when you have a late night and disrupted sleep. 

Lysh, I can't do back carry either! How about instead of yoga class, DH takes your daughter out for a daddy daughter date and you get some time in the house? It's funny - when you're a SAHM the thought of an hour to yourself out of the house is heaven - I can understand why it's not do appealing to you though! Also, will your daughter help with chores? My son really likes helping to put the washing on and putting it away. She might like a mini broom and she could sweep while you do?

Amy, three hour MOTN party?! I hope you don't have a run of them like we did! I thinks it's definitely developmental. This week Cully has been so engaged and really trying hard to communicate. He's also exactly the same and takes most of his milk at nap and bedtime. I think it's pretty common because they are so excited about the world!

SE, how are you?

Our night wasn't bad. He slept 2 hour stretches all night. I tried the snuggle method but he wasn't interested last night. Lol. He was up for the day at 530 and is now napping at 930am! No idea how the rest of the day will pan out. If he takes a long nap and refuses an afternoon snooze I guess it's early bedtime?!

I am so bad at GWTF!!!


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## mellyboo

Thanks girls shes changed so much .. She's a little monkey now always trying to climb or stand up on things walking comes next !


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## seaweed eater

I am busy!!! Lots of work this week. Things are ok, not awesome (yet). Will post a proper update/response soon!


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## polaris

Stephie, I'm so pleased you had another OK night. Although 5.30 is just way too early to start the day. When Clara gets up very early and has a very early first nap, I always get her up after about an hour so that she will be tired again for a second nap. Whereas if her nap is later then I let her sleep and either have a one nap day or try to get her to have a cat-nap in the buggy in the afternoon if necessary.

Amy - not to worry about the change of plan. When this happens to me, I like to call it being responsive to baby's changing needs, instead of just indecisiveness. LOL. She's not going to feed to sleep forever and neither will Clara. Also schedules work brilliant for some babies and not so well for others. Thomas was a real routine baby, he was in a very tight routine with naps and feeds and meals. It was great in one way but on the other hand it was quite restrictive because he would go into total melt-down if we deviated from the routine. Clara is much more relaxed about nap-times and routines which is great because she is more flexible for days out etc. but annoying because she doesn't do things at the same time, e.g. bedtime varies by as much as 2 hours depending on how the day has gone.

Lysh, I'm glad you are feeling less overwhelmed. Don't feel bad about your LO getting unwell, this has happened to me sooo many times. I think it is because they get so clingy and cranky and demanding because they are becoming unwell. Once you know they are ill obviously you can deal with this behaviour but it can be very hard to deal with when you don't know the reason for it. :hugs:

SE - how are things going now with your new plan? Looking forward to hearing your update.

We have had a couple of pretty good nights. She is still waking frequently but I think she has been doing some longer stretches and she has been easy to resettle when she does wake. She has also been sleeping in the side-carred cot for the second half of the night! Up until recently the cot has been totally ignored by both of us, I never try to put her in it. But just over the last week she has begun going into it of her own choice and for the last two nights she has slept there for most of the night. It's quite nice because it gives me a lot more room to stretch out without worrying about squashing her!


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## AmyS

Stephie - 2 hour stretches are great! We haven't had another motn party, thank goodness, but I know to expect them with everything she's trying to learn! That is so cool that Cully is working so hard on his new skill - I love this age!

SE - Can't wait to hear!

Polaris - I like that, "being responsive to baby's changing needs". I know she won't want me to feed her a bottle before bed when she's 12. I hope. That's a whole new thread if that happens! Glad you are getting in some good sleep stretches too!
_______________
For the past couple of mornings, she's been waking up at 4:30 - I try to put her back to sleep, but hubby and the dog get up, she hears them and then all she wants is to see daddy! I got her back to sleep at 6:30 yesterday for a nap before daycare, and then today we had to drive around for 45 minutes to get a nap in! 

I've stopped asking daycare about naps. I can see from her sheet that she took a half hour in the morning yesterday, and then an hour in the afternoon. Good enough for me!


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## stephie_corin

Melly, walking will be so much fun! I can't wait for it!

SE, really looking forward to your update too. I hope things are getting better each day. 

Polaris, I wish I read your post before now! I let him sleep for 2 hours and 15 minutes ("let" = helping him back to sleep when he wakes cranky - I could have got him up sooner but he seemed to want the sleep) and then he was awake from 11.45 - 6.45. He was in good form but had a meltdown when I put his sleeping bag on. Poor little man! I did try and put him down for a nap but he wasn't interested! I'm nervous about his first wakeup. When he's not overtired he's pretty calm and just calls out to me but when he's overtired it's hysterical wakeups every 45 minutes in the early evening. I think when he does take an early nap your advice is spot on. Thank you!

Wonderful news that Clara is sleeping better too! I'm so pleased for you. That's a great sign she moved into the cot too! It definitely sounds like she is becoming a more independent sleeper! 

Amy, 4.30 is so early!! You must be exhausted! I'd count 4.30-6.30 as a MOTN party! What time did she go to bed the night before? Do you think if she didn't hear daddy she would go back to sleep? 

Well, Cully has surprised me and become 10 x more awesome than he already was. I think the MOTN parties actually were a sign of a huge mental leap. He's communicating now with gestures and waving and clapping and today he seems to have nailed standing! He's been letting go for a few seconds here and there for weeks but today he did it for at least 5 seconds on numerous occasions, including standing up and banging his block and picking things up from the coffee table which took a lot of balance and coordination. Exciting stuff!


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## AmyS

Yay Cully!!! That is so amazing! I bet he's taking steps soon!

She went to bed at her normal times, I think it was 6:30 last night. She would definitely sleep if she didn't see daddy! He is so much fun though, that all she wants is him in the morning. He tried to hand her back to me yesterday, and she kept reaching for him. Very cute, and it made him feel very special!


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## stephie_corin

Thanks Amy! Chloe and her daddy sound so cute. It's early but at least you were both in good spirits about starting the day before the sun comes up! I guess when you have nice moments like that, it's easier to take :)


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## iwantabub

Hi ladies this is my first time posting in this thread...:

Lo is waking every hour or less!!!!

He used to sleep in four hour stretches...

I've just hd the flu types coughing bug and I'm just starting to get better but I'm so exhausted!!! I feel like ill never sleep again :(


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## AmyS

iwantabub - Have you had him to the doctor to make sure he doesn't have an ear infection or anything? Possible teething? I'm not sure how early the 4 month regression can start, but possibly you are already beginning that. 

Do you have any help so that you can grab some extra sleep during the day? On weekends? That was a huge help for me when we started the regression.


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## iwantabub

He is dribbling loads.... But he hasn't had a fever and is a very happy baby ... He's not waking crying or anything he's just tossing and turning etc...

And being awake by reli upset as such..

:(


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## AmyS

My baby never had a fever with teething either - can you see anything coming through the gums? Are they swollen? 

If he's not crying when he's waking - this makes me think it's the regression. Or maybe too hot or too cold at night? 

There's so many things, sorry for all the questions!


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## iwantabub

Well his gums aren't any different from normal as far as I can see... But about a week ago all he wanted to so was chew on stuff not suck and was dribbling heaps and grizzly so that's what we thought the but he's seemed to have sopped that and just still been dribbly...

I just have him some Panadol incase he is teething and in pain and he's just fallen asleep again so will see how long it lasts...

He's double wrapped coz he gets out of one ... The room is 20 degrees but he only has a sleeveless suit under that and he feels ok... Maybe a tad hot so maybe if he wakes again ill take off a layer and see how he goes ... 

Better to he cooler than hot right?

But I just felt his chest and he feels not hot at all quite normal.


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## iwantabub

Thanks for trying to help... I don't mind the questions. .

Lo is back down so I guess I'm gonna try and sleep for a bit... But it's that fear of sleeping now coz I'm scared ill be woken up again and ill feel worse haha


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## AmyS

I understand the fear of sleeping! In fact, I had insomnia for a bit after LO started sleeping good again!

I think it's definitely better to be cooler than warmer.


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## seaweed eater

Just a quick update since you all said you're curious :)

The good: bedtime consistently at 7 after two naps (!), sleeping well during the night (STTN last night, and the previous three nights, one waking around 2:30 and resettled easily), doing fine with no milk 7 PM - 6 AM.

The bad: still getting really upset before bedtime. :( Still unhappy while falling asleep, too (about 20 min nights 2-4, and tonight about 7 minutes, so hopefully getting better). And we're not able to be at all consistent about the early mornings. We don't give him milk until 6, but he's been up around 5:15 the past three mornings and will not stay in bed, or sometimes even his room, without screaming. So we take him out. :shrug:

Going to do things the same way for at least a couple more days and then see if it feels like time to change anything.

Hope everyone is having a good night :hugs:


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## polaris

SE that sounds like amazing progress - but not good that he's still getting upset at bedtime. :hugs: Could I ask what is your daily routine now? I am amazed that you are getting him to bed at 7 after two naps!

Clara is getting a cold so that is the end of slightly better sleep for us for the moment! Awake every sleep cycle last night until I gave her Calpol after which I think she managed a bit longer.


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## seaweed eater

I'm sorry about Clara's cold! :hugs: Every cycle is so tough! I hope you get some rest today and that tonight is better!!

Munchkin's first nap is pretty early, for an hour starting around 8 or 8:30. Then his second nap is at daycare usually around 1-2. He's rubbing his eyes by 6:15, in bed around 6:35...so last night he actually went to sleep even earlier than 7 because he cried less!

I don't know whether the early nap is encouraging him to wake up early. I'm just hoping that without milk he will learn to sleep later. This morning he actually seemed to go back to sleep for about 10 minutes, but then he pooped and was awake. But hopefully it's progress. Oh and a new first: two STTN in a row!!! :happydance:


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## polaris

SE, that is so funny, that is an almost identical schedule to Thomas's schedule when he was on two naps! Thomas was a very early riser too though. Clara often doesn't wake up until 7.30 and it does make it difficult to fit two naps into the day. And it just goes against the grain to wake her any earlier than that, especially given that Thomas doesn't get up until about 7.45. Although sometimes I do wake her earlier so that she can take an early nap.


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## seaweed eater

So funny. I remember your mentioning that Thomas started waking especially early after you dropped his last early morning feed. I just can't imagine having a baby who naturally sleeps later! Babies are so different!!


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## lysh

Hey ladies- I have not had a chance to catch up much. This happens when I start work....a bunch of sites are blocked at work and when I do have a break I am running around anyways like a lunatic trying to get stuff done. 

Plus I am fighting a cold right now. 

DD has been doing better with her sleep, usually now 7:45-5:45. This morning she was up at 4:30 though, hopefully not a trend!!!!

I will try to respond more over the weekend!


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## seaweed eater

Sounds like a busy week for everyone! I hope you feel better soon Lysh :hugs:

NO crying tonight. :shock: :yipee: Extra weird because the naps were so off today...first nap 8:15-9, and second "nap" 3:50-4 and 4:10-4:20. Now in bed at 6:30. I have a feeling tonight is going to be a bad night...he also didn't want to eat much in the evening so I don't know how he'll make it to 6 AM. But either way a good bedtime is really encouraging!!!


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## NotNic

Seaweed I think all sleep training routines suffer a blip around day 5. I think it's supposed to be the babies reaction to recognising this isn't just a phase! To really succeed at training it can take 2-3weeks with babies that are highly spirited! Some more placid babies adapt far quicker but it does take time. It also sounds that you are already having some great benefits so keep going. Early starts are really tough. I think we had 5.30-6.30 starts since he was 7/8 mths but in the past two months they have tended to be towards the 6.30 side of the window and even the odd sleep past 7am. This has come about since he's moved over to one nap. He isn't sttn though at the moment. He often is unsettled at 5am but goes back to sleep. Last night though we has a motn party at 3.45am. He was up for an hour for no apparent reason. He would be calm if I cuddled him or if daddy stood next to the cot, but that was it. We brought him into our bed and he just climbed off the bed and walked around in the dark! Eventually he cuddles up with his bunny on the floor to go to sleep. I tried to take him back to his cot and he started crying. By this point we run out of ideas so I left him for a few minutes and within 5 mins he was asleep. Oddly when he woke up today he was in a good mood. Mummy and Daddy - not so much!


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## polaris

Notnic - that definitely sounds like a developmental MOTN party. That is exactly how Clara gets. She just wants to get up and walk around and have a think about things or whatever it is she is doing! If I try to get her back to sleep she cries hysterically so I generally just leave her to it. Occasionally I even bring her downstairs for a bit if she seems really wired. I never ever did that with Thomas though! I don't know if I've relaxed a bit or if she is just much more persistent in demanding to be up! I don't really remember Thomas doing it in quite the same way, even though his sleep was always disturbed by developmental stuff. Great that you are getting later mornings! A lie in until 7 a.m., who would have thought it? I actually said to somebody yesterday that Clara generally sleeps late in the mornings, "sometimes even until 7.30", they looked at me like I had two heads and said "I thought you were going to say 10 or 11 when you said she slept late". LOL.

SE - great news on the good bedtime! How did your night go? Hope it was better than expected. I never found that how much Thomas ate the evening before made any difference to his sleep, he would just eat a huge breakfast in the morning usually if he hadn't eaten much the night before.

We had a fairly good night last night considering that Clara has a cold! Hopefully she's already over the worst of it because it didn't seem to be bothering her too much last night even though she's still very snotty and snorty.


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## stephie_corin

Iwantabub hi and welcome. Sorry to see you here. Keep posting and I'm sure you'll pick up some useful tips. Amy gives good advice :)

SE, thanks for the update. It sounds like Munchkin is doing really well. I'm always amazed at how quickly he responds to sleep training. I think you must be a very responsive mama who knows her son exceptionally well. You should feel proud, even though there are a few things bothering you still. You guys are making excellent progress.

Polaris, how are you? How is Clara? You really need a break. I hope she gets better quickly and you manage some more sleep. Lol at the sleeping until 10 or 11 comment!! I think I'd be on the way to the doctor's office if Cully ever slept that late. Oh, I see you had a better night! That's great!

Lysh, I'm glad she's been sleeping a bit later. Sorry for the 4am start!!

Notnic, MOTN parties sure do leave you feeling exhausted. I love the mental picture of him curled up with his bunny. Too cute!

Sorry that I haven't been around. Some workmen pulled up a cable in our street and we've been Internet-less since Wednesday night. I felt like I lost an arm. Lol.

Cully's sleep has not been great. I've experimented today and got him up after his second sleep cycle for his nap (1.5 hours). I help him back to sleep between sleep cycles for his nap at the moment and he usually does 2 hours 15 minutes before he wakes up happy. He has been fighting bedtime until after 8pm (and up at 6) when he takes the longer nap and just seems tired all day but won't take a second nap. So I'm hoping the shorter nap might make him more tired and fall asleep easier. It's 7.15pm and he's asleep so that's good news. Hopefully he has a good night!


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## AmyS

SE - Hope you had a good night, even with your weird naps!

Polaris - Poor Clara - I hope she starts feeling better soon! At least it didn't seem to affect your night! 

Stephie - How are things for you?

Lysh - Have naps been going well while you've been working? Sounds like she's sleeping good! That 4:30am wake up is not fun though - we've had that 3 times this weeks!


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## stephie_corin

Amy, 430am three times this week?! Poor you! You must be so tired!!


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## AmyS

stephie_corin said:


> Amy, 430am three times this week?! Poor you! You must be so tired!!

I would feel more sorry for hubby and the dog, because it's their fault, and I'm ready to send them both to the dog house! :haha:

I have found that Chloe sleeps better with shorter naps too. I start getting anxious if a nap lasts over 1 1/2 hours, because then I can be sure that she will fight bedtime!


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## stephie_corin

Do you guys think I should try and go back to 2 naps? He was staying up so late on 2 naps and even though he seems tired in the day he's on good form. I guess if I bounced him on the ball for a while at an earlier time he would fall asleep. I feel like baby sleep is this highly complex puzzle with infinite bad solutions and only one mysterious good solution.


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## AmyS

Stephie - I have a lovely bouncing exercise ball at home too! Fond memories of bouncing newborn Chloe when she would have a meltdown every night after 5pm...haha.

From what I've read on other forums, it's not unusual for the one nap transition to start this early, but it may not be a full transition until 12-18 months old. So, he might need one nap some days and two naps other days. Personally, I would probably GWTF on this one - if he's not acting too tired, I'd push the first nap out and only do one. If he takes an early nap and wants an afternoon nap, I'd probably try to cap it at 45 minutes - one sleep cycle. He might be cranky when you get him up though - have I mentioned that I HATE to wake a sleeping baby????

I really don't like transitions!!!! It's not like BOOM! - one day they're ready and you know it. It's so gradual.


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## stephie_corin

That's such good advice Amy, thank you!!

Cully used to meltdown between 7-10 pm. We never had any idea why and would take turns bouncing him on the exercise ball or daddy would do this special step that he swears still puts Cully to sleep (it doesn't!)... It's kind of a slow lunge walk that looks hilarious and is highly ineffective!!


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## AmyS

stephie_corin said:


> That's such good advice Amy, thank you!!
> 
> Cully used to meltdown between 7-10 pm. We never had any idea why and would take turns bouncing him on the exercise ball or daddy would do this special step that he swears still puts Cully to sleep (it doesn't!)... It's kind of a slow lunge walk that looks hilarious and is highly ineffective!!

I hope you got that on video!!! :haha::haha::haha:


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## polaris

Laughing at the mental image of your DH's ineffective sleep walk, Steph! I agree with Amy about the nap transition being a gradual process. In fact Amy wrote pretty much exactly what I would have written if I wasn't so sleep deprived and could still use my brain. LOL.

With Clara, she still mostly needs two naps but we do have the occasional one nap day. I do try to encourage her to have two naps because she seems to get too tired when she only has one nap, even if she sleeps for 2.5+ hours. I nearly always have to wake her from her naps but luckily she isn't generally cranky when she wakes up. Thomas always was (and still is).


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## lysh

There was a lot to catch up on, so will do my best to reply!!

SE- Thank you for the continued updates....it is interesting reading your experiences after the consultation and how sleep training is working. 

Polaris- Glad the cold did not effect your LO too much! My dd woke up at 1am.....on top of her cold she is now teething terribly. She seemed in a lot of pain today. :nope:

AmyS- I only had one full day this week...Monday starts our first full time week. Claire was sick the day I had to go back (figures) and she only slept 30 min at my SILs...poor thing. Sorry you had so many early wake-ups.....dd would go through phases like that and is really hard when she does! Even though.

Stephie- My LO switches between 1-2 naps depending on the day. I kind of follow her lead (when I am home). When I am at work it will probably end up being 1 a day. I think with these LOs we have to just go with it and see what causes the least amount of sleep stress. The one thing I like about the one nap is that dd goes to bed easily at night and it is easier to get her into her crib for at least a portion of her nap, however she tends to get a bit crankier during the day.

I apologize if I missed responding to anyone. I am still exhausted....dd is teething on top of still having a cold/cough so she was cranky/miserable today and because she did not sleep well last night I was cranky/miserable. I did not even bother trying to put her in her crib for naps today because I knew it would be a battle and she needed her sleep, so I also got no mommy break. I kept coughing too which means I did not nap. Hopefully she will STTN tonight....students start on Monday and I really would hate to start my first full week and day with students being sick/exhausted! Not a good first impression.


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## seaweed eater

Time to catch up!!

Stephie, I'm sorry things have been discouraging again, but it sounds like you had some good nights earlier this week! Don't forget about those!! I agree with all of the advice Amy has given you: that a lovey is a great idea, and that I'm sure he will be fine on one nap at daycare because there will be so much to distract him, and also that you should do one or two naps depending on how the day is going. I also think it's a good idea to try to keep one of the naps short. I usually use the same approach as Polaris and cap the first one since that's the one I expect him to drop. But we do have a reliable method for getting him to sleep (in the car) in the afternoon if all else fails...it would be riskier if we didn't have that.
And thank you for your kind words about Munchkin's progress. It means a lot to hear that from you :hugs:

Lysh, :hugs: :hugs: it sounds like you are having a rough week!! I hope you and LO are both on the mend ASAP. Don't worry about what impression you are making on Monday...I think you should pat yourself on the back for just making it through as a functioning person, honestly. It's so tough to parent when sick.

Your daughter has a C name too! What is it with the C names in this thread??

Polaris, so glad Thomas is doing well at preschool! I'm really sorry about Clara's cold and hope you go right back to the better nights (and more space to move around) once she's feeling better. Thank you for saying that about Thomas' dinner not making a difference to his sleep. That's what I was hoping would be the case, but I'm new to this whole night weaning thing so I wasn't sure whether this was something that would be disruptive or not. I will relax about trying to stuff food and milk into him in the evenings -- I think it's been counterproductive anyway!

Amy, sorry about your early mornings. 4:30 is no picnic. I don't think it's just you who's obsessed with feeding -- seems to be pretty common. At my baby group we talk about how it's such a basic instinct, wanting to feed your child! When I get like that I think about the stereotypical [choose your cultural/ethnic group] mother piling food on her adult child's plate and saying "Eat, eat! You're wasting away!" and it gives me a little perspective. :haha: I agree with Polaris that it's ok to change your mind and be responsive. Really! I don't think it's just a euphemism for indecisiveness. You seem to have great intuition so I'm sure you are doing the right thing in following it.

Iwantabub, welcome :hugs: I'm sooo sorry you're having sleep troubles while you're recovering from illness. That's really exhausting. Sounds like the regression to me...with teething you'd see some swelling in the gums (I think? I know I have the world's slowest teether) and temperature-wise it sounds ok to me. How have things been since you posted?
Also more questions: what is your routine/schedule like during the day? How are naps? When are you putting LO down at night? How does LO go to sleep? And how do you deal with the night wakings?

NotNic, thanks :thumbup: I think it's usually days 3-4 with the extinction burst...we had it on day 4 a couple times ago. Nothing noticeable this time, thank goodness. Munchkin's always been an early riser so I don't have much hope of really changing him...we'd be very happy with 6 every morning. But who knows! I'm sure things will be different by the time he's a teenager. Although I remember being an early riser myself in high school, so maybe not?! Either way it's clear where he gets it from. :haha: I'm sorry about your MOTN party. Sounds developmental and very VERY familiar! I hope it was a one off. (Polaris, I think this is one of the few things where my son is more like Clara than like Thomas! :p This and not being cranky when woken from naps!)

AFU - Last night turned out just fine! THREE STTNs in a row!! :wohoo: The early mornings are getting 5 min earlier each day though. It's generally pooping that wakes him up so not much to be done. Except hope that not feeding until 6 works eventually, I guess. :shrug:

No crying during stories or when I put him in bed tonight :thumbup: he did have some trouble falling asleep and got frustrated after a bit, but not too bad.

So overall I would say things are good!! Just in time for the weekend to mess everything up...it always does. :dohh:


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## lysh

SE- Yay for no crying at bedtime!!!! I hate when the poops get in the way! lol Hopefully that will not last. How are naps going?

So I have been up since 4am. This time it is not due to my daughter, but the constant coughing. I was in bed by 8:30 last night, but coughed until 10 then woke up at 4 coughing. How annoying!!! DD is still sleeping, even though she is restless (as I can see in the monitor). Poor baby keeps coughing too...it is now 5am. I have a feeling she will be up shortly as well. 
I wish I did not have to worry about the impression I make, but first impressions can make or break a school year, you know? If I am not on my game this week it could make for a difficult year. 

I am hoping I can somehow get a nap in today. I ended up giving dd tylenol last night....between her recovering from the cold and teething, she was not a happy baby. She was in bed by 7:30- we are pretty much getting her to bed close to a half hour earlier than usual. 

Well, hope you ladies got a decent night's sleep!


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## stephie_corin

So, yesterday's experiment (of a shorter nap) was a disaster! He was so overtired and woke crying many, many times. We also think it may be teething again... Anyway, we decided this morning he definitely isn't ready for 1 nap and that I would put him down around 9ish for a nap NO MATTER WHAT. Cully disagreed with us, and after an hour of trying to get him to nap we got up and he ended up taking a 2.5 hour nap, 5 hours after waking. I'm going to be really strict at bedtime and do my very best to ensure his last waketime doesn't exceed 5-5.5 hours. 

We also decided to try some pain relief tonight to see if it is teething. I can't see any new teeth about to erupt and (as you all know) - I hate to give too much pain relief, but anything is worth a shot at this stage.

SE, you're right - we did have some good nights earlier in the week so I'm holding onto some hope! 

If he decides he wants an early nap, my plan is to cap it at 45 minutes (basically at his first stirring) and try for a second afternoon nap. Otherwise we are just winging it! 

Polaris, it's interesting that Clara is ok when you wake her from naps. Cully is such a monster! I didn't realise you were waking her for both naps. Have you ever tried just letting her sleep as long as she likes? I wonder what would happen (I'm not suggesting you are doing it wrong - I'm just curious!).

SE, I'm doing a celebratory dance in your's and Munchkin's honour! What a truly fantastic update! I hope the weekend sees a continuation of your good run of sleep!

Lysh, I'm sorry you were up so early. I really hope this cold gets better asap for you. It's tough because you need sleep to recover. Hopefully lying down with your girl will let you both take a nice long nap during the day.


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## stephie_corin

7.02pm... Sleeping baby! (5.5 hours after waking). Now I just need to transfer him!


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## polaris

Steph, sorry you had a rubbish night last night. Well done getting him down so early this evening though! Fingers crossed for a better night tonight.

Sometimes I do let Clara sleep as long as she wants. If I do she will generally take a very long morning nap. For example today she had a 2.5 hour nap in the morning. This makes her afternoon nap difficult/very late though. Usually I get her up in the morning so that we can get out of the house and so that I can get her napping at the same time as Thomas in the afternoon (with a bit of luck). She generally wakes herself from her afternoon nap, usually about 1.5 hours, but if she's still sleeping at 4/4.30 I do tend to wake her so that it doesn't push bedtime too late. She had a late afternoon nap today so I woke her after 45 minutes as it was already 5 p.m. and I knew I would have a ridiculously late bedtime if I didn't get her up then. She is easy to wake though because she always wakes up happy!! Thomas was such a demon if he woke early from a nap.

It does sound like I am super controlling about her sleep when I write it all down like that! I just can never understand why she naps so well and sleeps so badly at night.


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## stephie_corin

Polaris, I don't think that sounds controlling - just sensible. Cully won't sleep more than a sleep cycle these days during naps without help so I also control the length of his naps. I tend to go by whether he wakes crying or is happy as to whether I extend them!

We had a terrible night. He would only sleep in my arms. I even gave him iboprufen but it didnt help. He's teething and he woke up sick today. He has a really runny nose, a cough and he threw up twice :( poor baby.


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## stephie_corin

Oh and it's going to be a 2 nap day (I hope!) - he slept for 45 minutes and then threw up and was wide awake. He's never thrown up before, believe it or not (I know how lucky we have been). I'm sure he will be fine, of course. But I feel really bad for him.


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## polaris

Aw poor Cully! Throwing up is just the pits for everyone. You might find you need to reduce his awake times a bit anyway if he's unwell. I usually find that Clara takes shorter naps but closer together when she's not well.

I feel like I am coming down with something today, probably Clara's cold. I would really love a proper break! Somebody to just take both children for half a day would be lovely. 

A bit of positive news though - I was feeding Clara to sleep for her morning nap today and it was taking her ages to settle. In the end I had to go out because I was taking Thomas to his swimming lesson and we were going to be late. So I left Clara with OH and he managed to get her to sleep! This is the first time that anyone except me has got her to sleep in months! (we gave up trying)


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## stephie_corin

Polaris, thanks for the sympathy and advice. I insisted on a nap around 2.30pm - I bounced him for ages and he fell asleep for 30 minutes. So he had an hour less sleep than usual and an hour extra awake time and he fought bedtime hard. He's very wakeful even now, an hour after he first fell asleep. I know today isn't a good day to compare because he's sick but it's interesting the difference between one nap and two!

I'm sorry you're coming down with something. Do you ever feel like being a parent is completely relentless sometimes? Putting aside the sheer wonder and joy they bring us - being a parent feels like you never have time to take a breath... You must feel it twice as much with two!

I'm so happy for you that OH managed to get her down for a nap, that must be a huge weight off your shoulders! 

Rest up and I hope you feel better soon.


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## bababas

Hi girls. sorry i was away. i think i missed 10 pages. so i will just bud in here hoping everything is good and that i didnt miss too much.

anyway i had two good nights with aron until, i told you the owner of the home is coming to paint the windows in side out.
it took some days.

one day after that he got a cold. two days after that he got very high fever. turned out he had a cold, roseola, and an ear infection (made him cry all night on tuesday) in one, so the sleep was shit. and i just let him nap whenever he wanted. 

now he is good again and we had great nights all in a sudden. our rules are, if he wakes 3pm from his last nap i let him nap a short 5pm nap. if he wakes 4pm he doesnt get a 3rd nap. the 3rd nap hasnt affected his nights.

past days he sleeps 8:30pm - i had to wake him up 1ams coz my breasts were exploding and i couldnt sleep. (i prolly need to ask at BF how to go about this, i would not like to disturb his sleep) then he wakes again around 4am or 5am. not sure why we have been having great nights. it is not the solids either. he hates puree and wants to eat what we eat, so he really eats very little. maybe 1 tsp 4 times a day of something.


i will try to bud in again in the evening. also have to prepare ívars bday party... *phew :dohh: OHs wedding anniversary is 28th september, no dining out i guess. haha, unless aron continues to sleep like this. maybe? i wish he will. then i can let MIL and FIL be here in the night.


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## stephie_corin

Welcome back Bababas! Sorry that Aron has been unwell.

We went to the doctor and Cully has an ear infection, which coupled with a cold, teething and developmental stuff has created the 'perfect storm' of sleep problems. He was awake from 8-11pm last night and then woke crying constantly and had to be in mummy's arms all night. Yawn. I hope everyone is well.


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## AmyS

Stephie - Poor Cully! I hope he feels better quickly! I hope you can find a nap today!

Lysh - So sorry you had an early wake up with coughing - that's the worst! I pretty much keep cough syrup by my bed when I'm sick, because I can't stand to have a coughing fit!

polaris - I hope you start feeling better soon too! I am always catching colds from Chloe - I call it the "daycare cold". So exciting that your hubby was able to put Clara to sleep! That's positive!

SE - Yay for your progress!!!! I hope the weekend didn't turn everything upside down! 

bababas - Poor Aron - so glad he's feeling better! Your nights sound really good!
________________

Chloe is currently going through some developmental sleep issues. Whenever she'd wake last night, she would start sitting up in bed, then lay down and roll around, over and over again. At 3:30am, I went back in again, but she couldn't get back to sleep very well, so I held her until I had to get ready for work. Poor girl - she is going to be so cranky at daycare! 

For naps, I'm still putting her down in her crib. Sometimes she wakes right back up and then that nap is ruined, but about half of the time I can get her down. I just let her sleep until she gets up, and the 2nd nap is the last nap no matter how short it is. (Previously, if she would wake before 3pm, I would try to catnap her at 4:30 or 5, but that really ruins bedtime.) 

Yesterday, she had a 40 minute morning nap, and 1 1/2 hours in the afternoon. She woke up from the 2nd nap at 2pm, so bedtime ended up being 6:30pm.


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## bababas

stephie_corin said:


> Welcome back Bababas! Sorry that Aron has been unwell.
> 
> We went to the doctor and Cully has an ear infection, which coupled with a cold, teething and developmental stuff has created the 'perfect storm' of sleep problems. He was awake from 8-11pm last night and then woke crying constantly and had to be in mummy's arms all night. Yawn. I hope everyone is well.

uff those days are really difficult. :hugs: cant imagine i got through them. im a bid annoyed easily these past days though. i feel better now though. hope you are fine as well.


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## bababas

AmyS said:


> Stephie - Poor Cully! I hope he feels better quickly! I hope you can find a nap today!
> 
> Lysh - So sorry you had an early wake up with coughing - that's the worst! I pretty much keep cough syrup by my bed when I'm sick, because I can't stand to have a coughing fit!
> 
> polaris - I hope you start feeling better soon too! I am always catching colds from Chloe - I call it the "daycare cold". So exciting that your hubby was able to put Clara to sleep! That's positive!
> 
> SE - Yay for your progress!!!! I hope the weekend didn't turn everything upside down!
> 
> bababas - Poor Aron - so glad he's feeling better! Your nights sound really good!
> ________________
> 
> Chloe is currently going through some developmental sleep issues. Whenever she'd wake last night, she would start sitting up in bed, then lay down and roll around, over and over again. At 3:30am, I went back in again, but she couldn't get back to sleep very well, so I held her until I had to get ready for work. Poor girl - she is going to be so cranky at daycare!
> 
> For naps, I'm still putting her down in her crib. Sometimes she wakes right back up and then that nap is ruined, but about half of the time I can get her down. I just let her sleep until she gets up, and the 2nd nap is the last nap no matter how short it is. (Previously, if she would wake before 3pm, I would try to catnap her at 4:30 or 5, but that really ruins bedtime.)
> 
> Yesterday, she had a 40 minute morning nap, and 1 1/2 hours in the afternoon. She woke up from the 2nd nap at 2pm, so bedtime ended up being 6:30pm.

looks like everyone had been a bit unwell. hope all are getting better. my cold is gone. it was hard being sick with fever chills while aron was crying all night :dohh:

those late naps. well yesterday the late nap ruined us as well. he had a hard time falling asleep. but the night was great. but he woke up early though. 6am. coz ds1 woke up and went to OH. gonna close the door of our bedroom earlier this night. was too lazy to go close the door at the 3am feed. :dohh:

wow you are so string holding her since 3 am :hugs:

tonight OH tried to give Aron his bed bottle. ehem.... aron was looking at me all the time complaining. so i left the room. then he went NO WAY! so when i entered the room again, he almost flew into my arms. :haha: we are practising since my work has celebration which i would like to attend on saturday. OH said we can practise again tomorrow. it think it will only work, when i am really gone to the celebration, coz it will be on another little island :haha: but still nearby. poor my guys.


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## lysh

Polaris- Wow, that must have been a good feeling knowing that someone else could put your LO to sleep!!! Hope you are feeling okay- it seems like everyone is battling something. 

Stephie- Your poor baby, hope he feels better!! These LOs do bring SO much joy, but yes it is relentless at times.....especially when not feeling well! We definitely do not have the magic fairy coming to give us a break! lol Hope you are hanging in....the nights are very long when a LO is ill. How is he doing now?

bababas- 8:30 is great! What time does your LO go to bed? My DD has NEVER slept that late. Actually, she has never slept past 6:30- I think that was the latest once and that was a fluke!

AmyS- Yikes, how are you doing?? You must be so tired! I have had those 3:30 wake-ups and I know how exhausting they can be. 

Well, today students started and so did full time work- missed my girl like crazy. She has been waking up a bit earlier again...today was 4:50. Because I had to go to work she could not fall back asleep with me after nursing. See how tomorrow goes.


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## NotNic

Praying for a better night for F and I. I feel like a bad mummy because I got really angry with F last night and I'm just so tired of not having the sleep almost every other parent I know in real life has. To start, Monday he woke at 5.15am and I had to do an extra full day in the office so could have done with a bit longer. Then we stayed at my mum's overnight and he took forever to settle, eventually going down at 9pm. He then woke up in the middle of the night screaming. Not crying but full on screaming which lasted an hour. He refused to be calmed down, locking his knees, pushing away from me. I was so tired and I had no patience. Plus I was trying desperately to calm him down as we were waking people up. I ended up shouting his name to try to stop him and was a bit rougher with him than I ever would dream of being. I feel awful about it today. After the screaming he woke me up numerous times crying in his sleep and was awake at 6am.

Thankfully he and my 7mth old niece I was looking after today behaved beautifully. They both napped and played together nicely, and ate the proper lunch I made and acted in a way that made you feel looking after two children is a breeze (I think someone upstairs is trying to convince me about having another one!!) F was so worn out he was fed, bathed and in pjs before his Daddy got home and I'm in bed ready to crash out.

I'm sorry to be a Debbie Downer, especially as we have moments of real improvements. I just feel at 15mths, we should be past this now. My OH sleeps through everything (unless I forcibly wake him up) and that makes me even more bitter about the crap sleep thing. I know overall there are plenty of people who have much, much worse sleepers than I and I should be grateful but really I'm kind of at the end of my tolerance now. Also seeing friends whinge on Facebook about 1 awful night's sleep being a shock to the system after months of sttn makes me want to ply their children with red bull! Joking obviously but the temptation to write something bitter on their page was a something I struggled to hold myself back from.

Sorry for my rant. I know all of you are struggling and it feels selfish to whinge here. But I do feel better for not bottling it up. Wishing you all sweet dreams and peaceful babies xxx


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## NotNic

Teething I hate you. Up at 12, again at 1am.... He's now had calpol and I'm waiting for that to kick in. Lots of cries out and I'm now listening to lullabies over the monitor. These last two teeth need to get through and then we need a break! We are so done!


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## lysh

NotNic said:


> . I ended up shouting his name to try to stop him and was a bit rougher with him than I ever would dream of being. I feel awful about it today.

I am typically a calm, easy going person but there are times I lost it with my DD as well. I did it twice when driving in the car because she will sit in the back at times and scream and scream and scream (she hates cars). Sleep deprivation, being stressed with life, feelings overwhelmed, etc. can lead to less patience for us mommas. Today I got frustrated with my daughter again.....and here we are transitioning with me going back to work and I was not being as sensitive towards her as I usually am. :nope: I was letting the stress of work influence my reactions to my girl. My point in sharing all of this, is that we all strive to be good, caring mommas, but sometimes lack of sleep and/or stress gets to us. We make mistakes- just have to learn from them. Having my daughter has made me look at myself in ways I never have before. And yes, it is hard sometimes when we have challenging LOs. Hang in there momma!:hugs:

DD is napping without me around, but she has to be held. She woke up at 5 this morning, so that was not too bad. Just have to get through this week....


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## gaiagirl

Hugs all around :hugs::hugs::hugs: No need to apologize for whining here, it`s really the whole point of the thread. LOL.

It is so hard sometimes, on one hand I have no idea how F is 10 months. On the other I feel like I havent slept more than 4 hours at once in a LIFETIME. 

To be honest, I dont expect to not be woken at night for another year, and that expectation is my way of not setting myself up for frustration and disappointment. I used to think that was conservative but honestly, I am starting to think it may be more than another year...:nope:

Last night, F fought bedtime until 10! Yikes. I think it is his eye teeth, even though his molars are not in yet. Maybe its both. Sighhhhh.


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## bababas

lysh said:


> bababas- 8:30 is great! What time does your LO go to bed? My DD has NEVER slept that late. Actually, she has never slept past 6:30- I think that was the latest once and that was a fluke!
> 
> Well, today students started and so did full time work- missed my girl like crazy. She has been waking up a bit earlier again...today was 4:50. Because I had to go to work she could not fall back asleep with me after nursing. See how tomorrow goes.

yes he usually is asleep by 8.30pm now and wake up 7-8am. could be earlier but i have to put ívar to sleep as well. and it is better to put the big guy to sleep first. but anyway as long as his brother is there and awake he wont fall asleep anyway :haha:

how is work? hope you are enjoying it. wow you go early to work. hope you can enjoy some coffee. is your little girl in playschool during that time? i would miss her too.


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## bababas

NotNic said:


> Sorry for my rant. I know all of you are struggling and it feels selfish to whinge here. But I do feel better for not bottling it up. Wishing you all sweet dreams and peaceful babies xxx

:hugs: :hugs::hugs: i totally understand you. it must be even more tough since you started working already. it is good to let it out when you have too.

how did you manage to make 2 babies nap :shrug: seems like a magic trick to me :haha:


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## bababas

gaiagirl said:


> Hugs all around :hugs::hugs::hugs: No need to apologize for whining here, it`s really the whole point of the thread. LOL.
> 
> It is so hard sometimes, on one hand I have no idea how F is 10 months. On the other I feel like I havent slept more than 4 hours at once in a LIFETIME.
> 
> To be honest, I dont expect to not be woken at night for another year, and that expectation is my way of not setting myself up for frustration and disappointment. I used to think that was conservative but honestly, I am starting to think it may be more than another year...:nope:
> 
> Last night, F fought bedtime until 10! Yikes. I think it is his eye teeth, even though his molars are not in yet. Maybe its both. Sighhhhh.

me too i am just tuned to no sleep for a year. that is what keeps me going :haha: sorry for the late bedtime. wow. how long was F awake before bed? or maybe just not sleepy, too excited.

We had a good night. 
sleep 8.30pm
1:45am feed and poop big time due to his antibiotics.
5am feed
7am wake

he is napping now, but woke up ofcourse coz of the f neighbours dog sh*T!!! i hate it!!!!! i want him to nap til 11 coz he only takes two naps now!!! now im pissed! WHY!!!! this dog always ruins my day. this neighbour too. is always singing! i dont want to hear her sing. retired people... get a hobby. ok sorry i am a mean person sometimes. aaaa


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## mellyboo

Alright Ladies sorry I haven't been on BNB as much this summer was crazy busy we went on 2 vacations and was just always busy busy busy.. I ended up breaking one of my arms my right arm at that and im "right handed" go figure so its starting to feel a little bit better....

Life's slowing down and NOW ITS TIME TO FIGURE OUT THIS CHILDS SLEEP ISSUES!!

I'm seriously so fed up that right now I want to spend my days crying because she's so stubborn I don't see a light at the end of the tunnel.

She's 11 months old her routine is still the same accept she is fighting one of her naps like crazy most days i cant even get her to take it she just won't.... 

I was suppose to be at work right now but with my hand being broken and her not sleeping at night and waking up 10 times a night i'm way to exhausted might be a silly excuse but i'm starting to feel depressed i feel helpless that my baby has bags under her eyes literally PURPLE bags under her eyes because for the life of her fights sleep.

I'm doing something tonight this all has to change i'm scared shes going to hate me but its so unhealthy.... 

somebody tell me what to do

I'm home alone all night by myself OH works nights.


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## bababas

so sorry about your arm. what happened?

oh i dont know much what to do. have you tried cio?

what is she waking up for, what does she want? what i have heard from people i know as a last resort, when the mom started working again. was leaving the baby with the father and mom would sleep somewhere else like grandparents. then it got better, i have heard, 3-7 days usually did the trick. but i have never tried this myself so i dont know. if aron still wakes when i go to work i might try this, since OH will be staying home with him for 2.5 months paternity leave. sorry i am not that much help. i also heard co-sleeping works with others.


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## mellyboo

I did co sleep but its to dangerous now that shes standing, crawling and getting ready to walk i have a huge king bedroom suite and my bed is kind of tall and its so big the way my room is set up right now i could never put my bed to the wall... she's been in her crib since she was about 5 months old when she started rolling all over the bed in her sleep.

She's waking up for no reason at first i thought it was milk and i'm kinda getting the point its not the milk because she will just play with the bottle and not even go back to sleep this baby can play in her crib for hours before she goes down I put her for a nap around 10 15 ( she hasn't slept all night) and its 11:40 and she's not sleeping yet.. shes playing!

I don't believe she's teething right now I honestly think she just hates sleep so much or she doesn't no how to give her self in she just doesn't go until she cant handle it no more car ride's used to put her to sleep not anymore.. nothing put her to sleep its almost like i need to wait hours before she's fed up and then start CIO once she starts crying... 

frig i'm so lost. :(


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## bababas

oh man that sounds tough. is there something like a sleep professional in the area? coz since she is just wide awake playing it is a bit difficult what to do. you would think she would just sleep in the end if she is sleepy right? but doesnt sound like it. :shrug: :hugs:


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## AmyS

Melly - How many naps a day are you on? Do you think she might be ready for one nap? At over 11 months old, she might be ready to transition. Maybe she's up so much because she's undertired by bedtime??


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## mellyboo

Yeah at this point shes been playing in her crib for like 2 hours .. I'm just going to get her out because this is just dumb i think she might be ready for just 1 afternoon nap and shes going to have to get through the grumpies to get used to it.. 

shes usually on 2 but most days just 1 ..


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## gaiagirl

Melly! Hugs!!!! That is so stressful, not only being tired but worrying that baby isn't getting the sleep she needs. It WILL get better i promise. I do hear a lot that after 11-12 months sleep does improve...

Ok so, I think first - one nap. Definitely one nap. If she's fighting naps AND having awake periods at night then one nap for sure.

Also, if there is any way to cosleep (your bed on the floor, a futon or mattress in her room on the floor) I would do it. At this point you both need sleep, and in my experience not having to get up makes a WORLD of difference. 

Hang in there!


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## NotNic

Bababas - Beginner's luck?! :) I think 10minutes of them laughing at me doing stupid, sleep deprived dancing and letting them bang along with wooden spoons wore them out. My niece rarely naps at that time so I do think the universe was being kind to me.

Melly - definitely one nap. F started having days of just one nap from around 10mths, though it was very go with the flow. He has only fully transitioned to one nap days since turning 13.5mths but occasionally he still needs two at nursery. I know its difficult with one arm (my oh broke his middle finger on his right hand recently and had it strapped across his chest for a few weeks, and it was so restrictive with a baby), but try to allow her as much physical play time as possible - park, soft play etc. to burn off that excess energy. Also it might be worth leaving her to it. Not necessarily CC/CIO but giving her no attention why she plays. It might have become a habit for her to be used to having you there while she plays. Maybe try removing the toys too if you think she's becoming overstimulated and its stopping her from settling. Or try a boring playtime before bed, away from the room she sleeps, like a simple, repetitive toy and soothing music in the background. F and I think Polaris' Clara are a bit like that. They could happily keep going and going, becoming almost hyper as it gets later. Finlay now runs round the room, going from one end to the other. Fantastic if we are out, as he's so happy and sociable. Awful when you've just had a day and you need a break. 

Lysh - hope your first week is going well. It's hump day and nearly the weekend!


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## gaiagirl

^^^ My Finley is like that too, happy and goofy no matter how long he's up! It's hard! But then again, cranky and miserable would be worse lol.


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## mellyboo

Thanks girls and I broke my arm in the middle of the night at 4am I was so tired I walked Into my bedroom door which made me fall on my arm and I tore the door handle off all at the same time honestly I wanted to give up at the moment I never felt like such a fail in my life I'm so tired I don't even have a voice left its all scratchy!


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## bababas

so sorry how that happened with your arm :hugs: oh man and there you think you would brake an arm while going skiing or something. poor you :hugs:

how is she when she sleeps only one nap?

ds1 was only on one nap when he was 10 months. i tried and tried to make him sleep the 2nd but it just never worked. so after 2 weeks of trying i think... i gave up.

is she better in the night with one nap? and i agree with the others try not to give attention while she is awake. :hugs:


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## stephie_corin

Hi everyone! I'm writing from the Maldives - we squeezed in one more trip before I have to go back to work. Gaia, we had so much fun trying to get the mattress put on the floor. We have a one bedroom villa and we now have a mattress on the living room floor (no sofa) and a mattress on the bedroom floor. After three attempts to explain what we wanted (this being the final result) we decided to just run with it! It's actually worked out really well because I can nap with Cully in the living room or the bedroom. 

Cully was brilliant on the plane but his nursing gymnastics are making it a bit more awkward to feed him to sleep! He was so patient even when he had to sit still. I'm really proud of him.

We also think he is finally getting over his ear infection. The doctor was happy for us to wait and watch for a few days before trying antibiotics and I'm glad we did after the research I've done. I'm giving him echinacea three times a day and we saw a chiropracter before we left. If anyone wants more details just let me know.

Bababas, I had to laugh at your neighbour singing. That's so annoying! I'm glad the 2 nap transition has gone so well for you guys. It's tough when the first nap goes wrong and it has a domino affect on the rest of the day. 

NotNic, what a horrible MOTN party! You poor thing! We have all been there and spoken more sharply than we'd ever normally do. You're a wonderful mummy so don't feel bad about it. One thing I've noticed when Cully is inconsolable with me is that if another person comes into the room or his line of sight (daddy) he actually calms very quickly. If its just the two of us he can arch his little back and scream for a very long time when he is worked up.

Lysh, I hope the first week is going well! I can understand how much you miss your daughter. I am going to be so sad when I go to work. But the ability to form attachments to other caregivers is a wonderful gift you are giving her. How many naps is she taking? Your family sound wonderful to hold her for her naps! 

Gaia, 10pm bedtime! Wow! You must have been so tired! What time did he wake up? So many teeth for such a little man. Or maybe Cully just has very few (4 little stumpy teeth poking out!). 

Melly, sorry that you are having such a tough time. I agree - one nap! Cully had two naps the other day when he was really sick but he is happily on one now. I'm trying to cap his last awake time at 5-6 hours or he gets really overtired. Things will get better. Hang in there!


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## bababas

have fun in the maldives. i wish i was there too :haha: congrats to your good boy. ds1 would prolly go bananas on the plane. thats why i never dared to travel with him. i feel different about ds2. but now i would have to take 2 with me. but then prolly wouldnt bother anymore... used to all kinds of nonsense since having a toddler.

our night was (i think he slept his second nap too long... 4.30pm ish. i have to wake him up 4 i think to keep a good 8.30pm bed time)

8.30pm sleep (oh he sleeps the first stretch in his bed now. angel care made 1 beep hate this thing)
11.45pm drink
--- i think he drank again short after hardly remember
3am drink then was a bit hard to go back to sleep for him
6.30am awake and pooped, he has been massive poop since the antibiotics for his ear infection.

he is napping now. did i tell you we have another neighbour who always drives into the fence, and then just continues driving :wacko: i told the landlord he knows about this. just some woman who keeps on driving into everybodies cars and fences :dohh:


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## AmyS

lysh - Hope your daughter is learning to take some good naps while you're away! 

bababas - I have to cap the 2nd nap before 4pm too, or she takes too long to settle at bedtime!

Melly - You poor girl, breaking your arm like that!!! That would be so frustrating! I hope if you decide to transition to one nap that it goes smoothly for you.

NotNic - I've been there too - spoken a little sharply to my poor girl when I know it's not her fault. The only thing I've been able to calm Chloe down with when she gets like that is a bottle. Even her daddy makes her crazy if she's in a "mood".

Stephie - I am seriously jealous of your vacation! So glad Cully was awesome on the plane - it makes travel so much easier. Where do you get your Echinacea from?


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## mellyboo

bababas said:


> have fun in the maldives. i wish i was there too :haha: congrats to your good boy. ds1 would prolly go bananas on the plane. thats why i never dared to travel with him. i feel different about ds2. but now i would have to take 2 with me. but then prolly wouldnt bother anymore... used to all kinds of nonsense since having a toddler.
> 
> our night was (i think he slept his second nap too long... 4.30pm ish. i have to wake him up 4 i think to keep a good 8.30pm bed time)
> 
> 8.30pm sleep (oh he sleeps the first stretch in his bed now. angel care made 1 beep hate this thing)
> 11.45pm drink
> --- i think he drank again short after hardly remember
> 3am drink then was a bit hard to go back to sleep for him
> 6.30am awake and pooped, he has been massive poop since the antibiotics for his ear infection.
> 
> he is napping now. did i tell you we have another neighbour who always drives into the fence, and then just continues driving :wacko: i told the landlord he knows about this. just some woman who keeps on driving into everybodies cars and fences :dohh:

haha who literally drive's into a fence and keeps going :haha:

Last night we have these 2 people who are wanted by the police roaming around our city we live in and all night you can hear is sirens and sirens they had so many road blocks and stuff to catch this guy it was soooo sketchy!!


She woke up twice last night ( I can handle that).


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## seaweed eater

Time to catch up! :flower: How is everyone doing today?

Lysh, the weekend is almost here! I hope everyone is feeling better and that naps are improving :hugs:

Stephie, really sorry C has been ill. :hugs: :hugs: It is so tough when they are miserable AND you can't get any rest. Is he feeling any better? How are you feeling about everything? I hope the vacation does all of you good!

Polaris, I agree, it doesn't sound to me like you are too controlling, either! Of course, I say that as someone who probably seems crazy in how much I try to protect Munchkin's sleep routine. :haha: But I understand. It really does throw things off so much if you just let it go. You are very thoughtful to put in so much effort to help her get enough sleep.
How wonderful that your OH managed to get her down for a nap. It's so nice when that happens! Feels like it lifts the burden a bit. How have things been since then?

Bababas, welcome back, I'd been wondering what happened to you! I'm so glad things are going so much better :happydance: your nap guidelines sound perfect. Are you still getting engorged during the night? Maybe instead of waking him you could just pump or hand express a little, just to take the edge off. Our boys' birthdays are coming up!! :cake: Do you have a big party planned for Ivar?

Amy, sorry you're having the sitting up problem. That was really tough for us and we really just had to WIO. I hope things are getting better. How has the week been?

NotNic, so sorry you guys have been struggling :hugs: I'm sorry F is so sensitive to teething. You do such an amazing job with him. Really! It sounds like you make it so clear what you expect from him, but you also take a gentle and patient approach. You deserve amazing sleep! Don't be hard on yourself for losing patience with him. It doesn't destroy the wonderful bond you have and the attachment you have cultivated over his entire life.
Please do write something bitter to your FB friends. :rofl: I am always tempted to do that too! "Soooo tired, little man was up at 6:15 this morning." Seriously?!?!

Gaia, sorry you are having such late bedtimes again! You really have a little night owl. And a little teether...poor F! I hope things have been a bit better. :hugs:

Melly, so sorry about what happened to your arm! I broke my leg a couple years ago and found it so emotionally draining to have that kind of limitation. It must be so much more intense trying to parent that way!
Your daughter WON'T hate you if you sleep train her. But if you are worried about it, it seems like a good idea to see if you can get on a good routine with one nap, and if that makes things easier.

I do think sleep training would help though :shrug: it sounds like she probably is chronically overtired and just doesn't know how to wind down. How does she fall asleep at bedtime? Mine has started showing much more obvious sleepy signs since the last round of sleep training. Before he would just go straight into his second wind without seeming sleepy for a second. But now he is giving classic sleepy signs much earlier than I would have predicted a few weeks ago. I think it's because he knows how to go to sleep on his own so he can take the initiative and slow things down, instead of waiting for me to do it, if that makes sense?

I also would take her out of her crib after half an hour if she's playing. I think it's important to maintain different associations with different environments, e.g. crib is for sleeping. Obviously you can't control that completely but if she's been playing for hours and isn't slowing down, I think you should take her outside.

AFU - things have been really good! :thumbup:

Mostly STTN, sometimes waking once. We had a random bad night earlier this week when he was unsettled from about 2:30 AM and couldn't stay asleep for the rest of the night. I can't tell whether he's teething, which probably means he's not. Maybe he was hungry.

He's also often going to sleep happily. I'm so proud of him! :cloud9: And as I wrote to Melly, he's showing much clearer sleepy cues, which I find really interesting.

The only thing that's not ideal is the continued early morning poops, which make it impossible to put him back to bed after he wakes up, usually around 5:15. But I will soooo take it.

He's still taking two naps, one around 8:15-9 (often in the car on the way to daycare, but sometimes at home if I can go in to work late enough) and the second at daycare sometime in the afternoon. So far there's only been one day when his second nap got really really late. So I'm pleased with that.

Of course, next week I have to work much longer hours than usual, so I'm sure that's when this good streak will end. :( But it's just for a week, so I'm hopeful that we can get back into a good routine once that's over.

I apologize in advance for continually falling behind on this thread! Things are going to get increasingly busy at work from now until the new year. But I'll try to check in when I can! <3


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## mellyboo

Thanks girls :) <3!


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## bababas

hi SE

im glad for your good nights. and i hope it will stay like that.

yes we will have a big party i guess :haha:

we went bday gift shopping today. and left Ívar at MIL and FIL. Aron was just sitting nicely in the babyseat of the pushwagon. i so enjoyed it, how quiet nice he behaved. i will always remember, we used to dine out with ívar when he was little. but when he turned 1, it was embarrassing to dine out with him :haha: he threw OH phone over to a tourist couple in the fine dine we were in. so i am really enjoying my baby aron as long as i can. haha. 
OH wanted to buy Ívar a really expensive bday gift. that was for 4 years old. and i was like Hell no. so tomorrow he wants to go again with ívar and show it to him and let him choose. i was like ok but you are not allowed to buy that expensive thing.

we are definitely on two naps.

Ívar has to go 30 mins later to bed as usual since his noon nap is affecting his sleep. but i dont want him to drop his noon nap. well so Aron heard that OH was reading Ívar stories while i was trying to make Aron sleep. he just wanted to go over to Ívars room. so i just went there until story time was over. since there was no way anyway to make aron sleep while his brother is awake. *sigh, well at least ívar can keep him awake and i dont have to worry if he wakes early from his second nap :haha: never happened yet, since he likes to sleep 2pm-4pm. good for me i can nap as well. mm but tomorrow is a weekend. and their naps are not in sync anymore. lets see how tomorrow will be :wacko: im a bit scared lol.


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## stephie_corin

SE you do so well to catch up with everyone! It's so interesting that munchkin is back on 2 naps. Good luck with your busy period at work. I hope that it's not too disruptive for you guys.

Amy, I bought an echinacea syrup that doesn't have alcohol from the pharmacy. I'll message you the name when Cully wakes up. We just went to the resort doctor and she said Cully has pretty much completely recovered! I'm so glad we didn't give him antibiotics unnecessarily. There were times this last week where I doubted my decision but it was obviously a viral infection and resolved on its own! 

Sleep for us has been pretty good - 2 hour stretches except when he first falls asleep and the early morning. He's still taking one nap, but seems quite fussy and tired. I've tried to nap him earlier/later and offer a second nap but he is pretty stubborn! 

We had a 2 hour MOTN party last night. I feel like I rocked him for hours and hours. Daddy was getting in on the rocking action too and C just kept babbling away. 

Melly, did you try the one nap? I'm glad you had a better night!

Bababas, your neighbourhood sounds hilarious!! That's great that Aron is doing his first stretch in his own bed. It must give you some nice relaxation time! Sorry that naps aren't in synch anymore. Good luck for the party!! Edit - I just saw Aron has an ear infection too! So sorry. I hope he feels better soon!


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## mellyboo

Hey i'm currently doing 1 nap she's a little tired during the day but she will prob just get used to it..

I had this blanket in her crib i always folded it tight to the bottom so she couldn't get caught in it but lately she's been pulling it out and making a pillow out of that blanket and falling asleep on it.. so last night in the night she was rolling around on it in the middle of the night to get comfortable.. i gave her a bottle and accidently passed out opps ( i'm tired) and she seriously slept from 3am-9am i thought i was going to have a bad night because she went to bed at 8 and woke up for the first time at 130 then 3 but i was refusing to give her milk until atleast 3am because OH is dumb and gave her 16 oz yes 16 oz before bed .. augh and woke up at 130 for more.. uh no! lol

anyhow its the longest stretch she's done in forever i dont no if it was because of the blankets made like a pillow she was comfy like that or what

She's having her first nap of the day and i took a pillow off my bed and gave it to her and shes been napping forever.... 

Should i just give her a pillow now she's almost a year old on the 6th of october? the pillow i gave her is kinda flat its not a super fluffy pillow or anything


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## NotNic

Finlay had a pillow from an early age. We put it directly onto the mattress and put the sheet over it to keep it in place. Perhaps I you're worried you could try that?


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## stephie_corin

Notnic that's a great idea! I've been wanting to give Cully a pillow. I wonder how DH will feel if I put a row of flat pillows under our sheet (we have Cully in our bed)... Maybe I could just tuck one under Cully's part of the bed. Thanks for the tip!!


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## stephie_corin

Melly, I forgot to say that I'm glad you had a good night! And 16oz?!?!? Wow that is a lot of milk!!! Lol.


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## mellyboo

Thats an amazing idea thank you so much i'm doing that before her bed time tonight..

Soooo last night she went to bed around 830 by the time she actually fell asleep and woke up at 1 am and slept right through till 730am...

I'm amazed right now..

Watch tonight i'll have the bnb curse !! lol


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## mellyboo

stephie_corin said:


> Melly, I forgot to say that I'm glad you had a good night! And 16oz?!?!? Wow that is a lot of milk!!! Lol.

Yes steph I couldn't frigging believe it.. I told OH he needs to ask me first because obviously we had no idea what each other was doing haha.


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## polaris

Sorry everyone, I've completely fallen behind. I have been reading but haven't had time to comment. 

Clara's sleep has been quite bad. She is definitely in nap transition now and is having lots of one nap days. Days that she is having two naps they are generally both very short. She's coping well with it though and we've only had a couple of really over-tired meltdown evenings. I have no idea what time to aim for bedtime at the moment and it varies a lot. 

There has not been any improvement in her night wakings. As of today, I am trying cutting out dairy from both of our diets, because I have noticed a couple of times that she has been particularly bad after a creamy dinner, waking a lot crying and with a lot of wind. Fingers crossed it helps a bit!!


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## NotNic

Sorry to hear that Polaris. You really seem to suffer with every change. 

Also I have to say much kudos to all of you who co-sleep on the floor. I don't know how you get any sleep!!! We're staying in a cottage for a week and we arrived late last night to discover they haven't provided a cot. Last night we put a mattress on the floor and made him up a bed. He did nap late 4-6pm in the car, but didnt nap at all before and we were at a kid's party so he should have been worn out. His routine was all out as he ate at 7.30 and then stayed awake until we arrived. Unfortunately it took him two more hours before he went to sleep! Finally nodding off at 00.15am!! He was running around in the dark, opening drawers, banging etc. I'm hoping it was the novelty because I can't last all week if they don't have a cot for him today!!


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## keese22

Having a bit of a rough time, don't really know what to do for the best.
Lo is almost 7 months old, he is BF and we are BLW as he won't let me spoon feed him.
He does nap ok, it just takes forever for me to get him to nap. He doesn't really feed to sleep that much anymore so I've been laying down with him and he shouts for a while then goes to sleep and I then transfer him to his cot. The thing is I'm getting so frustrated as he's tired he just won't go to sleep. I can be laying there for an hour at times with him. He had a wake time of around 2-2.5 hours and 3 naps a day. This morning I was getting so frustrated I felt the best thing to do was to put him in his cot . He winged /cried for half an hour and I went in every 2-3 mins to settle him and he eventually fell asleep. My husband thinks I am doing the right thing as he will only settle for me but I feel awful. I always said I wouldn't cc but its also no good me gettig frustrated with him as he isn't doing it on purpose. I just needed to get this out :( I don't know what I'm going to do for the next nap time ad bedtime. I guess consistency is the key :/


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## polaris

Notnic, I think it depends what they are used to. Thomas absolutely loved his cot and there's no way I would have gone on holiday without a cot because it would have been just like you describe, he just wouldn't have realized it was time to sleep! Whereas Clara is fine in that regard. She does crawl around the bed a bit if she's undertired but generally she associates the futon with going to sleep so she doesn't get off the bed or try to play etc. (I also have her in a sleeping bag which does restrict her mobility a bit!) I hope they have a cot for you tonight!! He could have been a bit overtired too after so much excitement and disruption to the usual routine. Enjoy your holiday!!

Keese, welcome! The first thing that I was thinking was that your LO might be starting into the 3:2 nap transition, so might be a bit undertired when you are trying to put him down for a nap. I think it sounds like a really good plan to try to get him used to going to sleep himself in the cot. I would definitely keep going with what you are doing if you are comfortable with it. It sounds like he fell asleep quicker without you lying beside him so it could be that you lying with him is too stimulating for him now that he is older and more alert. My older boy was like this and fell asleep much better on his own. If that is the case you might want to space out the checks a bit if he is just whinging rather than distressed. (DD is the opposite and won't let me leave the room at all, just as an aside!)


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## keese22

Thank you, it's good to hear that people don't think I'm a horrible mum! I think you're right and he does get over stimulated by me. What is the recommended time for checks? (I'd go in sooner if he got too distressed)

Lunch time nap was better. He had his lunch, I put him in his gro bag. Quick breastfeed downstairs then I put him in his cot as said time for a nap. He shouted for about 10 mins. He didn't really cry and then we went to sleep :) 
Sat with a hot chocolate with my feet up and a bit of telly :)


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## keese22

I tried again this evening. I lasted 40 mins and I was outside his door sobbing, I can't do it :( we were thinking about introducing a dummy for naps or something a bottle gentler . I feel awful :(


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## keese22

A bit gentler even!


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## bababas

stephie_corin said:


> We had a 2 hour MOTN party last night. I feel like I rocked him for hours and hours. Daddy was getting in on the rocking action too and C just kept babbling away.
> 
> Bababas, your neighbourhood sounds hilarious!! That's great that Aron is doing his first stretch in his own bed. It must give you some nice relaxation time! Sorry that naps aren't in synch anymore. Good luck for the party!! Edit - I just saw Aron has an ear infection too! So sorry. I hope he feels better soon!

:hugs: had a bit of a MOTN last night. but only 30 mins, so cant complain. seemed more like he had difficulties falling back to sleep.

we went to the doctor again to double check if the infection was gone. thank god it is gone.


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## bababas

mellyboo said:


> Hey i'm currently doing 1 nap she's a little tired during the day but she will prob just get used to it..
> 
> I had this blanket in her crib i always folded it tight to the bottom so she couldn't get caught in it but lately she's been pulling it out and making a pillow out of that blanket and falling asleep on it.. so last night in the night she was rolling around on it in the middle of the night to get comfortable.. i gave her a bottle and accidently passed out opps ( i'm tired) and she seriously slept from 3am-9am i thought i was going to have a bad night because she went to bed at 8 and woke up for the first time at 130 then 3 but i was refusing to give her milk until atleast 3am because OH is dumb and gave her 16 oz yes 16 oz before bed .. augh and woke up at 130 for more.. uh no! lol
> 
> anyhow its the longest stretch she's done in forever i dont no if it was because of the blankets made like a pillow she was comfy like that or what
> 
> She's having her first nap of the day and i took a pillow off my bed and gave it to her and shes been napping forever....
> 
> Should i just give her a pillow now she's almost a year old on the 6th of october? the pillow i gave her is kinda flat its not a super fluffy pillow or anything

good news on the long stretch. hehe. Ívar and Aron had a pillow early on. It is also quiet flat.


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## polaris

Keese :hugs:
Please don't be too hard on yourself. We are all just feeling our way through this and it's not easy to know what is the right thing to do at times. Sleep training is a good fit for some families/babies and not for others. Maybe take a step back and take a bit of time to decide which is the right approach for you. Have you tried a dummy with him before?

What is your boy's daily routine like at the moment? There might be something you could tweak in his routine that might help. Undertired and overtired can both make it very difficult for them to settle to sleep (sometimes the problem is knowing which one you are dealing with, LOL).


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## bababas

mellyboo said:


> Thats an amazing idea thank you so much i'm doing that before her bed time tonight..
> 
> Soooo last night she went to bed around 830 by the time she actually fell asleep and woke up at 1 am and slept right through till 730am...
> 
> I'm amazed right now..
> 
> Watch tonight i'll have the bnb curse !! lol

no hopefully now bnb curse. shooo shooo. hehe


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## bababas

polaris said:


> Sorry everyone, I've completely fallen behind. I have been reading but haven't had time to comment.
> 
> Clara's sleep has been quite bad. She is definitely in nap transition now and is having lots of one nap days. Days that she is having two naps they are generally both very short. She's coping well with it though and we've only had a couple of really over-tired meltdown evenings. I have no idea what time to aim for bedtime at the moment and it varies a lot.
> 
> There has not been any improvement in her night wakings. As of today, I am trying cutting out dairy from both of our diets, because I have noticed a couple of times that she has been particularly bad after a creamy dinner, waking a lot crying and with a lot of wind. Fingers crossed it helps a bit!!

sorry for the bad sleep :hugs: i hope the new diet will work. keep us updated.


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## bababas

NotNic said:


> Also I have to say much kudos to all of you who co-sleep on the floor. I don't know how you get any sleep!!! We're staying in a cottage for a week and we arrived late last night to discover they haven't provided a cot. Last night we put a mattress on the floor and made him up a bed. He did nap late 4-6pm in the car, but didnt nap at all before and we were at a kid's party so he should have been worn out. His routine was all out as he ate at 7.30 and then stayed awake until we arrived. Unfortunately it took him two more hours before he went to sleep! Finally nodding off at 00.15am!! He was running around in the dark, opening drawers, banging etc. I'm hoping it was the novelty because I can't last all week if they don't have a cot for him today!!

oh boy. i hope he only got excited due to the party. i notice aron has difficulties falling asleep when he is excited. or if we have been somewhere or did something not at home.


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## bababas

keese22 said:


> Having a bit of a rough time, don't really know what to do for the best.
> Lo is almost 7 months old, he is BF and we are BLW as he won't let me spoon feed him.
> He does nap ok, it just takes forever for me to get him to nap. He doesn't really feed to sleep that much anymore so I've been laying down with him and he shouts for a while then goes to sleep and I then transfer him to his cot. The thing is I'm getting so frustrated as he's tired he just won't go to sleep. I can be laying there for an hour at times with him. He had a wake time of around 2-2.5 hours and 3 naps a day. This morning I was getting so frustrated I felt the best thing to do was to put him in his cot . He winged /cried for half an hour and I went in every 2-3 mins to settle him and he eventually fell asleep. My husband thinks I am doing the right thing as he will only settle for me but I feel awful. I always said I wouldn't cc but its also no good me gettig frustrated with him as he isn't doing it on purpose. I just needed to get this out :( I don't know what I'm going to do for the next nap time ad bedtime. I guess consistency is the key :/

sorry. last week when aron was sick he wouldnt eat puree at all. i had to give him BLW stuff. now he is good on puree again. our boys are at similar age. aron is only napping 2 times. he dropped the 3rd nap about 1.5 weeks ago. have you tried 2 naps?


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## bababas

keese22 said:


> I tried again this evening. I lasted 40 mins and I was outside his door sobbing, I can't do it :( we were thinking about introducing a dummy for naps or something a bottle gentler . I feel awful :(

:hugs: maybe it is just the first night. and it will get better tomorrow? :hugs: i would try maybe a bit more. unless if there is no improvement. i am thinking about sleep training too. but since he still just falls asleep while breastfeeding i am kind of too lazy for it.


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## bababas

last night was not so good. but saturday night was fine. thank god, since i went to my work party. OH was able to make aron fall asleep. he slept in his bed and fed only twice.

therefore last night was not so nice lol. i think he was too excited perhaps coz we had guests? ah well you never know. :haha: 
he woke up 10pm, 12pm, i dont remember but i think 4 times. and at 2 am he was just babbling and then had difficulties to fall asleep. he fell asleep on his own though beside me eventually. i pretended to be asleep, ofcourse i couldnt sleep but had my eyes closed. so i felt a bit bummed when we woke up 7am. but had to go to the doc to check his ears again.

doc advised to stop night feedings. i was like how. he said just let OH sleep with him. i said but OH is working. he was like naaaa who cares. :haha: it seems like a good idea.... but i dont know, i think i am not ready yet. since i am not working at the moment i still could go with the flow, i still have hope that he might one day sttn on his own. he drank a lot last night though. i wonder if it is real hunger? or maybe teething... :wacko:


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## seaweed eater

Stephie, I'm glad you've had some relatively good nights. I hope that continues for a while!! :thumbup: I'd love to know how Cully likes having a pillow, when you try that. We are waiting until 18 months to introduce one but I'm really looking forward to it. Munchkin loves smushing his face into our pillows or into his old nursing pillows. :)

Polaris, so sorry you guys are struggling. :hugs: Her sleep does seem so sensitive. I hope that cutting dairy helps. Your children are so lucky to have such a patient and caring mama.

NotNic, I can't believe F stayed up past midnight!!! As Polaris said, I'm sure toddlers who sleep on the floor get used to it, but for a crib sleeper it makes sense that one random night without a cot is extremely stimulating. I hope things are better tonight and you enjoy the rest of your holiday!

Keese, so sorry you are having a tough time :hugs: I'm one of the rare thread participants nowadays who does use sleep training techniques, but everyone is always very supportive, and no one will say you're a horrible mum! Polaris gave you some great advice -- I was going to say many of the same things she did.

I think you are right that consistency is the important thing. This might sound harsh, but I think that does mean that you have to be prepared for your LO to have a hard time. It doesn't mean you are being mean and horrible. Change is hard! But if you give her a predictable new structure she will adjust to it.

DH and I have adopted a more flexible approach to the checks. I am not comfortable with the idea of LO being left alone if he is truly distressed. So I respond based on what I feel he needs. I do try to leave at least 5 minutes between checks, usually more, so that I'm not popping in and out all the time, because I know my LO finds that very stimulating. But if he's having a tough time I stay with him for longer before leaving, and I sometimes touch him or pick him up. As long as he sees me leaving and falls asleep without me in the room. It's not perfect but it has helped his sleep a lot, and it's the only approach that really fits my parenting style, so it might be something to try if you are having a tough time with more traditional sleep training approaches :)

Bababas, I'm glad your work party evening out went well, but sorry last night was difficult! Are his ears getting better? (was it both ears?! ouch!) Doctors always make it sound so simple...I think, since you seem open to the idea in general, you will know when you're ready.

AFU, we'll see how Munchkin does this week with longer days at daycare... :(
The past few nights have been comparatively rough. He's just seemed to have a hard time settling. I've broken the night weaning rules and given him milk twice (once was at bedtime but after we'd already started the routine) because he was so upset. Each time the milk has helped, but I can't tell whether it's the calories or the comfort. We are really trying to feed him a lot during the day but maybe he needs more now that he's walking? Or maybe it's WW55...or teething. :shrug: I just hope we're able to get back on track.


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## lysh

I am just checking in.....I have a lot of catching up to do! I have not fallen off the face of the earth, just exhausted!!!! Busy start to the school year and LO is back to waking up between 4:30-5. When my eyes are not half closed, I will catch up!


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## stephie_corin

Polaris, I'm sorry about your update - I really thought walking might make Clara so tired she'd sleep beautifully! Hopefully cutting dairy is the solution. Also, when she finishes making the 2:1 nap transition she might sleep better? Here's hoping anyway. 

Notnic, I'm sure the nighttime antics weren't funny at the time but I relayed your story to my DH over lunch and we both had a chuckle. Finlay is such a spunky little boy. Any improvements for you guys or did you locate a cot?

Keese, I'm glad he was able to self settle for his nap! That's amazing news. I'm sorry the night was so tough though. Definitely no judgement here. If I recall correctly (SE will be able to confirm) - you can usually successfully use different methods for naps and nighttime. If he is getting very distressed at night you could try the gradual withdrawal method where you stay in the room. Although as Polaris says, this might be too over stimulating for him. Can he be fed or rocked to sleep if you decide the sleep training is too hard? Good luck and keep us updated!

Bababas, regarding the night feedings, I think you guys should make your own mind up and don't be pushed into something by the doctor. A lot of breastfeeding advice is outdated and doctors are not always the best ones to advise us on these issues. I'm sure you know that though :) do what feels right for you. Did you know you can buy the same instrument that the doctors use to check their ears? I've ordered one off amazon so that I can keep an eye on things myself. Apparently they are really easy to use and the one I bought is intended for home use by parents and comes with a guide about what to look for. 

SE, I'm sorry things have been rough. I really like your flexible approach to sleep training. I think it's tough to make a hard and fast rule for sleep training because there are so many unforeseen stages in their development. How are Munchkin's naps? Is he taking them easily? He's likely to start transitioning back to one nap in the next few months - I wonder if 2 naps is affecting his bedtime? Or it could be any number of the factors you mentioned! 

Lysh, sorry about the early wakeups. I wonder if you could put a mattress in a baby proof space and get some more sleep while she plays next to you? Although I think Cully would delight in hitting me with things and pulling my hair if I tried that! 

We had a bit of a rough night - back to hourly wakeups with a couple of two hourly stretches. I'm sure he's teething. He has the little white squares in his gum at the top of his mouth. No sign of the 3rd and 4th bottom teeth though? I thought they came first.


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## keese22

Thank you everyone. I'm goin to keep trying to put him down for naps as he didn't get that upset and not sure about the night yet. When they drop naps which nap is it that usually goes??


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## stephie_corin

Keese, I found it wasn't so much that one nap disappeared - the two remaing naps happened at different times. So I pushed the first wake time longer (2.5 hours) and the second waketime to 3-3.5 hours and bedtime 4ish so hours after that. It's worth experimenting with awake times because we have variously done: 2.5, 3.5, 4 and 3, 3.5, 3.5 and 2, 2.5, 5... If he is sleeping well at night and taking good naps you know you've got a good formula :) if he gives strong tired signals (eye rub, yawning) this is your best indication. Good luck!


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## bababas

seaweed eater said:


> Bababas, I'm glad your work party evening out went well, but sorry last night was difficult! Are his ears getting better? (was it both ears?! ouch!) Doctors always make it sound so simple...I think, since you seem open to the idea in general, you will know when you're ready.
> 
> AFU, we'll see how Munchkin does this week with longer days at daycare... :(
> The past few nights have been comparatively rough. He's just seemed to have a hard time settling. I've broken the night weaning rules and given him milk twice (once was at bedtime but after we'd already started the routine) because he was so upset. Each time the milk has helped, but I can't tell whether it's the calories or the comfort. We are really trying to feed him a lot during the day but maybe he needs more now that he's walking? Or maybe it's WW55...or teething. :shrug: I just hope we're able to get back on track.

it was the right ear. yes it is so easy to say but hard to do thats true.

i am wondering the same with aron now. this night was weird again. i tried to stuff him the day, since he is not that big of a eater. but he woke again up a lot in the night and drank so much! one of those days again :coffee: hope you will get back on track soon.


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## bababas

lysh said:


> I am just checking in.....I have a lot of catching up to do! I have not fallen off the face of the earth, just exhausted!!!! Busy start to the school year and LO is back to waking up between 4:30-5. When my eyes are not half closed, I will catch up!

you take care hon :hugs:


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## bababas

stephie_corin said:


> Bababas, regarding the night feedings, I think you guys should make your own mind up and don't be pushed into something by the doctor. A lot of breastfeeding advice is outdated and doctors are not always the best ones to advise us on these issues. I'm sure you know that though :) do what feels right for you. Did you know you can buy the same instrument that the doctors use to check their ears? I've ordered one off amazon so that I can keep an eye on things myself. Apparently they are really easy to use and the one I bought is intended for home use by parents and comes with a guide about what to look for.
> 
> We had a bit of a rough night - back to hourly wakeups with a couple of two hourly stretches. I'm sure he's teething. He has the little white squares in his gum at the top of his mouth. No sign of the 3rd and 4th bottom teeth though? I thought they came first.

thank you on the advice, i didnt know about the ear instrument. well i am buying that now lol. tanx a lot.
sorry about your rough night. seems like all have been having a bad night today. so it must be the weather i hope!


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## bababas

keese22 said:


> Thank you everyone. I'm goin to keep trying to put him down for naps as he didn't get that upset and not sure about the night yet. When they drop naps which nap is it that usually goes??

aron used to nap 9am, 1ish and late 5ish.

so now it is around 930, and 1 or 2ish.

wake times are 2,5, then 3. sometimes he isnt sleepy at 2,5 so i do 3 and 3. then he does 4,5 before bed, since he refused to sleep as long as his brother is awake :dohh:


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## bababas

bad night here again. is there a growth spurt? might be the teeth or something. or developmental. since he just cried out of the blue around 10:30.
then drank a lot. i cant remember how many times we woke up. maybe 4-5 and at 2 am he couldnt settle was babbling. so i turned around to show him i was sleepy. he immediately cried. so i turned back and put my arm around him then he was able to fall asleep. but he drank a lot in the night. is there a growth spurt or something. he is 7 months today. or maybe teeth... sigh. and then he had to woke up 6am :cry: he is napping now. so i am gonna nap now too. falling asleep. cant google of ww30.

managed to google:

Weeks 29/30 or 6.8 months - This isn't actually a Wonder Week, but many babies act fussy during this time as they begin to understand that their mommy can leave them. Just thought I'd let you know :)

this sounds like us. he even says MAMAMAMAMA to pick him up. and looks for me. it looks sad lol.


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## keese22

I googled it too as we're having a pretty awful time. It makes me feel better that it might be something else other than me doing a really crappy job! I bought a dummy..he won't take it. I'm not really that surprised as e won't take a bottle! It was awful for his lunchtime nap. He laid next to me crying whilst I'm crying. I ended up feeding him to sleep. I'm just fed up now :( feeling really teary today. Only 6 hours till DH home


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## bababas

keese22 said:


> I googled it too as we're having a pretty awful time. It makes me feel better that it might be something else other than me doing a really crappy job! I bought a dummy..he won't take it. I'm not really that surprised as e won't take a bottle! It was awful for his lunchtime nap. He laid next to me crying whilst I'm crying. I ended up feeding him to sleep. I'm just fed up now :( feeling really teary today. Only 6 hours till DH home

oh no why do you say you are doing a crappy job. dont worry hon :hugs: at least he is napping now. i still feed aron to sleep all the time hehe. i did it with my ds1 until he grew out of it. i hardly remember but i think he was about 7-8 months then. but i dont remember what i did for nap times. i only remember he would self settle for bedtime.


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## keese22

I fed him to sleep tonight. He has a bit of a cold now so don't want to do anything ATM. Going to form a plan in the next few days and start again next week. Tried to get him to take a dummy today. He wouldn't have it. I don't know why I'm surprised really ..he won't take a bottle!


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## NotNic

Luckily the complex apologised and dropped a travel cot off first thing the next day. Even with such a late bedtime and full on day he still woke at 7am. Normally that would be a lie in but less than 7hrs sleep was exhausting for us. The following night OH had a bath straight after Finlay and never made it downstairs. He fell asleep on the bed! So two nights running Daddy went to bed before he did! We're having a great week, but Finlay really is a hyper boy down here and we've had to borrow reins! Sleep is a little changed up. Tonight he went to bed normal time so we'll see how that affects him. 

Will try to catch up with you all properly soon. xx


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## stephie_corin

I just wanted to check in - we are in the middle of truly awful nights and Cully seems to have reverted to 2 naps again. He's sleeping 3ish hours in total during the day and I'm just going with it for now. I will respond properly later. Hope everyone is doing well!


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## keese22

He was up 5 times last night. 5 times :/


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## bababas

keese22 so sorry. 5 times is a lot. but happy 7 months!

im trying to remember. i think last two nights have been similar.


ívar has a cough, which wakes aron, around 10pm. again at 12mn. then slept 12-5am straight. yesterday i was struck by insomnia though. i think he woke up twice or trice but woke up 6:30 both boys. 

hope everybody is doing well though.


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## keese22

We have a tooth! His very first tooth. Hopefully sleep will calm down now :) last night was better. He fed at 946(drive to inlaws so he woke when arrived) woke at 230. Fed him and he went straight back up sleep, then he woke at 0430 as his nappy had leaked(wet). Any night nappy recommendations ? We're using pampers baby dry x


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## polaris

Keese, that's brilliant news!! So good when there turns out to be a reason for the frequent wakings! And that sounds like some seriously good sleep last night, yay!! Regarding the nappy leaking, what I used to do when I was using disposables was to move up to the next size up just for nighttimes, that usually fixed the problem.

Bababas, I hope Ívar's cough is better soon, how frustrating that it is waking Aron too. That was a lovely long stretch of sleep from 12 to 5 though, yay!

Steph - Clara is back to two naps too - she is sleeping about 3 hours during the day too! I swear that Cully and Clara copy each other in their sleeping patterns! We are having awful nights too. But I do think ours are developmental, we are in the middle of WW55 and Clara is SOOO clingy during the day as well which is very unlike her. She is really waking a lot during the night and wanting to be latched on for most of the night. She wakes up crying when the boob falls out of her mouth! I hope this is a short phase. It could be teething as well, I think possibly a premolar? Her gum looks swollen.

Hows everyone else doing? It's been quiet on this thread recently. Am hoping that means all babies are sleeping well? SE, how is Munchkin's sleep now? Notnic - hope the rest of your holiday went well.


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## seaweed eater

Things have been pretty good here, despite my worries about longer hours at daycare last week. Most nights he's been up once or twice but has gone back down pretty easily (without milk).

Also he had no problem taking two naps at daycare each day this week (I had to drop him off around 7:30 :( ) so that's still happening. Two short naps though.

Sometimes bedtime goes really well...sometimes he seems to just get himself worked up and need to sit on the floor for a minute and calm down, and then he's able to go back to bed and fall asleep.

So overall, really good! :thumbup: The biggest issue now, strangely enough, seems to be getting enough food into him during the day on weekends. He eats a LOT more solids at daycare and it seems to be better for him that way. We just can't manage to feed him that much. I have been increasing his last cup of milk in the evening to 5-6 oz and I think that has helped.

Will catch up with you all soon :hugs:


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## stephie_corin

Bababas, how have things been with you? Any improvements? It could well be a growth spurt. Wow I just saw your update - what a great sleep! That's awesome.

Notnic, I hope the rest of your holiday has been lovely and relaxing! I bet you were glad when they dropped off the travel cot!

Keese, I'm sorry you've been having such a rough time. I'm sure it was teething causing the disruptions - hopefully things settle down now. Regarding nappies, we've switched to cloth now but I was advised to go one size up for your night nappy. Oh, I see Polaris has given the same advice!

Polaris, we really do have the worst sleepers, don't we! Hopefully once this next WW passes you get some better sleep. You're certainly owed a good night of sleep! 

SE, I'm thrilled that sleep is going so well for you! That's fantastic news! 

We are still having crummy nights. I can't figure out what it is. He wants to be picked up and rocked at every night waking which is tiring. A few nights ago I had to wake DH to bounce him on the exercise ball because I was just too tired. I don't understand how he can be so happy and lovely and sweet in the day when he's barely slept at night. But he is continuing to hit his milestones and is in great spirits so I will keep giving him the help he wants at night to sleep. 

Amy, Gaia, Lysh - how are things?


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## bababas

polaris said:


> Bababas, I hope Ívar's cough is better soon, how frustrating that it is waking Aron too. That was a lovely long stretch of sleep from 12 to 5 though, yay!
> 
> Hows everyone else doing? It's been quiet on this thread recently. Am hoping that means all babies are sleeping well? SE, how is Munchkin's sleep now? Notnic - hope the rest of your holiday went well.

tanx polaris. i think his cough is a bit better now. he hasnt coughed yet since his sleep. hope you are doing fine as well. :flower:

so sorry about the night sleep. hope WW55 is over soon.


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## bababas

seaweed eater said:


> Things have been pretty good here, despite my worries about longer hours at daycare last week. Most nights he's been up once or twice but has gone back down pretty easily (without milk).
> 
> Also he had no problem taking two naps at daycare each day this week (I had to drop him off around 7:30 :( ) so that's still happening. Two short naps though.
> 
> Sometimes bedtime goes really well...sometimes he seems to just get himself worked up and need to sit on the floor for a minute and calm down, and then he's able to go back to bed and fall asleep.
> 
> So overall, really good! :thumbup: The biggest issue now, strangely enough, seems to be getting enough food into him during the day on weekends. He eats a LOT more solids at daycare and it seems to be better for him that way. We just can't manage to feed him that much. I have been increasing his last cup of milk in the evening to 5-6 oz and I think that has helped.
> 
> Will catch up with you all soon :hugs:

yey your nights sound fabulous! yea they usually eat more when they see the other kids eat. ds1 eats a lot more in playschool. here at home i have to cook carefully so he eats. but eventually he will eat if i keep his plate, he eats it later when he is hungry again.


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## bababas

stephie_corin said:


> We are still having crummy nights. I can't figure out what it is. He wants to be picked up and rocked at every night waking which is tiring. A few nights ago I had to wake DH to bounce him on the exercise ball because I was just too tired. I don't understand how he can be so happy and lovely and sweet in the day when he's barely slept at night. But he is continuing to hit his milestones and is in great spirits so I will keep giving him the help he wants at night to sleep.

sounds like tough nights. i am just lucky that aron continues sleeping after giving him the boob. i am willing to breastfeed forever if that does the trick lol. coz then i can just sleep while he drinks. he nods off very fast after he is full. i hope i will not have to night wean him. i feel it must be impossible. i cannot imagine how difficult that is bouncing all night. :hugs:

We had a good night yesterday. i was so happy. he woke 1 am and 5 am, and that was it. and woke 7:30. also ívar. it is good when they wake at the same time. i had hard time falling asleep first though, coz i watched some horror trailer :dohh:


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## gaiagirl

Hey ladies, still up and down here. Had a rough night Friday then a good one last night (woke maybe 2-3 times and only nursed twice!). Just coming out of a wonder week so hoping it settles a bit...

But really no big changes. Still naps around 9:30/1:30 and bed between 7-8. STILL almost always wakes briefly at first cycle then needs nurses back to sleep...looking forward to the day THAT ends. Lol.


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## bababas

hurra for the good friday.

i had a good night again. he woke up 2:30am to nurse and 5am. and up 7am.


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## stephie_corin

Happy birthday Ivar and Munchkin!!! 

Gaia, Cully is the same and still wakes 45 minutes after falling asleep (and the 45 after that and the 45 after that.. Lol). I'm glad you had one good night! Progress is progress!

Bababas, wonderful that you had a good night too! I hope you have a wonderful birthday celebration today.

Things aren't great here. Back to hourly wake ups. But no MOTN parties! 

It's very quiet around here. I hope that means most of you are experiencing fantastic sleep!


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## seaweed eater

Happy birthday Ivar!!! :cake:

I'm sorry not to have helped interrupt the quiet...things are really getting busier at work now! (we're on an academic schedule.) Munchkin was up at 3:45 -- yes, up for the day -- Monday morning :sleep: but last night gave himself and me a birthday gift and slept 11 hours straight through!!

I hope the rest of you are doing well! :hugs:


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## NotNic

Happy birthday babies!! Hope everyone is well. We had a fab break but back to work today - boo!! F's sleep ended up being okay during our hols. He slept through every night until almost 7am most days. I don't think that's us cracked though, as his routine was so out that week. He didnt nap his usual amount any day and tended to be in bed late with quite a few cat naps. Plus he runs a lot! We'll see how he is with a full normal week of activities and nursery and then hopefully I'll be able to update you with some good news. :) We have noticed though if he wakes at 7am or later he is in a MUCH better mood first thing. I would love if he could sleep later. I could get up early and actually do things before he's up. How brilliant would that be?


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## bababas

Happy Birthday Munchkin! :flower:

Aron is teething I guess. he is annoyed during the day, so I didnt even count how many times he woke up last night. didnt bother... too much work haha. better to just pretend or try to sleep while he nurses. 

Have a good day everyone! im gonna nap now... :haha:


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## bababas

ps Aron started military crawling yesterday. but today he is getting a bit too fast now. :dohh: so this might coz sleep troubles too i guess.


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## freddie

Hi ladies. I haven't posted on this thread in a while but this morning I am feeling so despondent. Last night's "sleep" has me in tears this morning :( I'm trying to night wean LO in the hope that maybe it'll help him sleep more. I'm on the first step of nursing him when he wakes but un latching him before he falls asleep. He seems ok with it for most of the night although it feels like he is waking more often. Then it all went wrong at about 5am when he just absolutely cried and cried when I un latched him. I must have done it too soon but it has me thinking that he's never gonna let me stop the feeds (which is supposed to be the next step). After about an hour I put him back on the boob which I think is a big no in the grand scheme of the plan but I just couldn't take it anymore. It's also quite painful to feed him at the moment due to pregnancy which makes the constant night nursing torturous :( I just don't know what to do, sorry for the pathetic moan :( I don't think dh really understands how difficult I'm finding this and is more often snapping at me than offering any supportive words :(


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## NotNic

Rachel sorry to hear you are having a rough time. Something that Noelle often used to suggest was going cold turkey on what ever it was that you wanted to drop. For quite a lot of babies this resulted in less than a week if complaining but ultimately resulted in a lot less stress for mum and baby and a quicker resution. Can you replace any of the night time feeds with drinks of water?


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## little_lady

Hoping you wonderful ladies can help.

Joel slept through from 10 weeks to 16 weeks old, but from 4 to 6 months his sleeps got worse and worse. He currently wakes up every hour or two, on average about six times a night. I've tried feeding him,rocking him and leaving him and he does go back to sleep very quickly - the problem is the waking and crying in the first place. It's been going on for a couple of weeks now that he wakes so often.

I can handle one or two night wakings but losing the will to live here! 

He naps fine, 3 times a day for an hour to an hour and a half each, and he goes to bed fine at 7pm(ish).

He's got a cold and just had an ear infection, but the problems started before that really. He's also rolling over and getting on all fours and rocking in his crib when I go to him.


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## stephie_corin

Little_lady, I know this doesn't help but these kind of regressions are very common, particularly when LO is working on a new skill.

You've got two options: wait it out or try some sleep training. This can be as gentle as you like. Let us know what approach you prefer and we can give you some tips and advice. Even if you decide to wait it out, there are strategies you can use to make things easier (like bed sharing, for example).


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## stephie_corin

Oh, I forgot to say you may find dropping to two naps helpful too!


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## little_lady

If I knew it was only going to last a few more days I'd probably wait it out.

I have heard horror stories of it not going away though so as soon as he's over his cold I think I'd prefer to sleep train. I can't bed share as he likes his own space and won't be cuddled to sleep either. I can settle him by putting my hand on his back and rocking him but he will still wake up an hour later so clearly there's something behind him waking up?? Developmental makes sense.


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## stephie_corin

If I were you, I might try dropping a nap and seeing if that helps his sleep. He may be under tired. Although some of the others might be in a better position to advise you on this.

There are a lot of different methods for sleep training. Controlled crying, gradual withdrawal, pick up/put down for example. I haven't sleep trained myself but some of the others on the thread have. Let us know what method you prefer and I'm sure someone will be able to help!


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## seaweed eater

Little lady, :hugs: why don't you pick a particular day until which you will WIO, and then you can reevaluate? I find it much easier to wait when I know I'm going to have a chance to stop waiting if things are really bad.

If I were you, I'd wait until the cold is gone, then try dropping a nap for at least 3-4 days, then consider sleep training. I'm not someone who is against sleep training in general, but it needs to go together with a good daily schedule for the best results.

Rachel :hugs: unlatching my LO early never, ever worked. We tried the gentle removal NCSS thing for a few weeks and it took dozens of removals each time, and never any less than when we started. That method of night weaning wouldn't be right for us and perhaps it isn't right for you either. What I would do instead is work on the sleep association first. At bedtime, do something else in between nursing and sleep (like reading a book). You can continue nursing during the night if you want, but just try to put him down awake afterward. Once you are confident that he can calm himself and go to sleep without nursing immediately prior, you can start dropping feeds. Good luck :flower:


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## little_lady

How do you drop a nap though? He is definitely tired for all three naps so how do I get him to drop one?


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## freddie

seaweed eater said:


> Little lady, :hugs: why don't you pick a particular day until which you will WIO, and then you can reevaluate? I find it much easier to wait when I know I'm going to have a chance to stop waiting if things are really bad.
> 
> If I were you, I'd wait until the cold is gone, then try dropping a nap for at least 3-4 days, then consider sleep training. I'm not someone who is against sleep training in general, but it needs to go together with a good daily schedule for the best results.
> 
> Rachel :hugs: unlatching my LO early never, ever worked. We tried the gentle removal NCSS thing for a few weeks and it took dozens of removals each time, and never any less than when we started. That method of night weaning wouldn't be right for us and perhaps it isn't right for you either. What I would do instead is work on the sleep association first. At bedtime, do something else in between nursing and sleep (like reading a book). You can continue nursing during the night if you want, but just try to put him down awake afterward. Once you are confident that he can calm himself and go to sleep without nursing immediately prior, you can start dropping feeds. Good luck :flower:

Yep I think we have to play the slow game with him... I have been working on the sleep association to the extent that I've not been letting him fall asleep on the boob. That seems to be working although the nursing and sleep are still very close together but it is now more like feed, cuddle, rock and sleep. The last couple of nights he's actually let me put him down awake in his cot for the first time EVER! And I've patted him to sleep in his cot. Can't do it during the night but still it's a big step for us!

Also, as he is still in our room, it was too easy for me to pull him into bed with me once I was in there and then he'd sleep next to me for the rest of the night and wake constantly to nurse although seem restless like he didn't really know what he wanted. We decided to test out what he'd be like without us in the room to disturb him. I also thought this way I couldn't slip into my habit of pulling him into bed and feeding him while I doze off. I decided I'd only feed him twice and all other wake ups I'd rock /pat. Well 2 out of the 3 nights we've not been in the room he's only woken up twice!!!!! So I feel like there is some light at the end of the tunnel.

We're gonna sort out his room so that he can have his own space to sleep in (we're currently sleeping on the floor downstairs and he's in our room lol!)

I'm sad at the prospect of him moving out of our room but it's clear to me that it is going to be the best thing for all of us. 

So in these past few nights we seem to have made some steps in the right direction but I know there is still a long way to go! I'm wondering now how to keep moving forward and drop one of the feeds so that he only wakes up once. If he continues this pattern he's wanting a feed at around 12 and 5... Is there a better one to try and drop? I'm thinking the 5am one - try to push him to wait til his morning feed at 6.30/7?

Sorry for the essay!


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## seaweed eater

Little lady, you would drop a nap by extending his awake times. They can get sleepy out of habit even if they don't need the sleep, so you likely would have to push through some tired signs at first. You'd know within a few days whether it was working better or not. We can come up with an approximate two-nap schedule for you. I think you said 3 naps of 60-90 minutes and bedtime at 7. What time is he up in the morning?

Rachel, that sounds like great progress on both SS and moving to his own space :thumbup: that was how we started working on SS with mine, and it didn't get him all the way there without tears but it did help. The 4:30-5 feed was the last one we dropped, and I know it was the same for Polaris (with her first) and others on this thread. It seems like they don't need that one as much, but the problem is that their drive to sleep is so much weaker at that time so there's a danger that they will just wake themselves up if they don't get to feed. If you don't feed him until 6:30-7, even if he wakes up earlier, then in the long run he probably will start sleeping through, but it is likely to be a longer process and in the meantime you have to deal with earlier mornings. But you know your baby's sleep habits best and can probably listen to your intuition on this. If you think he'd go back to sleep at 5, you may be right.


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## little_lady

Thank you seaweed.

He gets up between 6 and 7am, mostly nearer 6 but it can vary. Never after 7 though.

His cold is mostly gone now, I'll give him tonight and then be a bit stricter with routine etc. Then I think I'll wait until next week before sleep training.

Last night was the worst yet, I lost count of the amount of times I got up to him, maybe 10 or so.


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## seaweed eater

It sounds like he's getting about 15 hours of sleep a day (which is perfect!) so 2-3-4 would probably work well. Those are awake times. So for example, if he wakes at 6:15, first nap could be 8:15-9:45, second nap 12:45-2:15, bed at 6:15. It's natural for bedtime to get a little earlier when you make this transition. Naps may lengthen so that bedtime can be later. If you find yourself needing more total awake time, or if the 4 hours before bed are too much, you could lengthen the first wake time a bit.


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## little_lady

Thanks! I'll try this tomorrow I think. 

Last night I put him down at 7.15pm and he woke at 10pm, 12.30 and 2.30am, then slept until 6.30am randomly! So not a bad night. I fed him when he woke up, the first two times he had a big feed but the 2.30am wake he just had a short nurse and then laid his head on my arm and went back to sleep. 

I suppose it could be worse as he will go in his crib fine and does self settle sometimes, or settles if I put my hand on his back.


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## freddie

seaweed eater said:


> Little lady, you would drop a nap by extending his awake times. They can get sleepy out of habit even if they don't need the sleep, so you likely would have to push through some tired signs at first. You'd know within a few days whether it was working better or not. We can come up with an approximate two-nap schedule for you. I think you said 3 naps of 60-90 minutes and bedtime at 7. What time is he up in the morning?
> 
> Rachel, that sounds like great progress on both SS and moving to his own space :thumbup: that was how we started working on SS with mine, and it didn't get him all the way there without tears but it did help. The 4:30-5 feed was the last one we dropped, and I know it was the same for Polaris (with her first) and others on this thread. It seems like they don't need that one as much, but the problem is that their drive to sleep is so much weaker at that time so there's a danger that they will just wake themselves up if they don't get to feed. If you don't feed him until 6:30-7, even if he wakes up earlier, then in the long run he probably will start sleeping through, but it is likely to be a longer process and in the meantime you have to deal with earlier mornings. But you know your baby's sleep habits best and can probably listen to your intuition on this. If you think he'd go back to sleep at 5, you may be right.

No I think you're totally right about the 5ish feed - I don't think he'd go back to sleep without it. We had another breakthrough last night... He slept for EIGHT HOURS STRAIGHT!!!! He went down to bed at 7.30pm and not only had he not woken up before I went to bed but when he did wake up I looked at the clock and it was 3.45am!!! I literally couldn't believe it!! Unfortunately it then took an hour and a half and 2 feeds to resettlle him but I wasn't even bothered cos I was so happy about the first part of the night! We finally got him back to sleep at 5.15am and he woke for the day at 7.30am. That is by far the best night sleep he has ever had. I soooooo hope that it continues and we can just work on settling for one wake up. Oh my God that would be amazing... Okay must try not to get too excited as could just be a fluke but hopefully not!! After a year of averaging 5-10 wake ups I am praying that this is the start of a life as a human again rather than a sleep deprived zombie:sleep:


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## seaweed eater

Hooray for good nights! :happydance: Rachel that's wonderful!!

I need help with naps again. What do you guys think is the best of these options for a 12 month old:

1. 80-90 minute morning nap and short, irregular afternoon nap (anywhere from 10 to 45 minutes, and at very different times each day)
2. Two 30-45 minute naps around the same times each day
3. One 45-90 minute midday nap around the same time each day

We're doing #1 at the moment, and it seems to result in the most sleep overall but some days there's a very very long WT. Yesterday he napped 8:10-9:30 and then fought a nap all day at daycare and finally napped in the car 4:20-4:30. Bedtime was around 6:45 as usual and he was apparently fine in the afternoon, but that's not a great schedule. I'd appreciate any thoughts!

Hope everyone is doing well. Seems we are all busy, but please come back and update :hugs:


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## polaris

We're on holiday in Wales at the moment, so sorry that I haven't been online much. Clara's sleep has actually been pretty good! I don't want to jinx myself but I do think that cutting out dairy has actually made a difference. She seems much less windy and she isn't waking up crying and uncomfortable in the same way as before. She's still waking 4+ times a night but returning to sleep easily after a quick feed - it's a big improvement on what she was previously doing. We are also firmly back on two naps for the moment, generally at about 9.30/10 for about an hour and then 2/2.30 for about 1.5 hours. In non-sleep news, she is signing a lot and has some words. It's so surprising to me that she already has a few words because Thomas didn't have any words until about 16 or 17 months and didn't really talk much until he was two. She loves signing and gets a real kick out of us understanding her. Yesterday at bedtime, I was saying to her and signing "now we'll have milkies and then we'll go to sleep" and she kept signing milk and sleep for about the next ten minutes but she was too excited about it to actually do either! 

SE - I would probably try for option 2. I think the long wake times are not great even if they seem to cope with them fine - my (vague) understanding is that cortisol levels gradually rise the longer they are awake and this is dispersed by napping. I thought Clara was OK with one nap but she was getting progressively more cranky and a bit erratic over about a week so we've gone back to two naps for the moment. The problem that I have is that if she is only having one nap it has to be either early (10 a.m.) or late (1 p.m.) because we have pre-school pick-up at 12.30. I don't think she can make it through the whole morning to 1 p.m. or through the whole afternoon from 12 p.m. to bedtime without getting overtired so I'm sticking with two naps at the moment but waking her after 45 minutes or an hour from her morning nap. (Slightly OT but I have also gone back to daily naps with my almost four year old, he still just copes better with a nap even though it pushes bedtime late and he probably gets less sleep overall in a 24 hour period).


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## stephie_corin

SE I agree with Polaris - I would go for option 2. 

Polaris that's interesting about cortisol levels! I'm glad cutting dairy (or whatever else might have helped) means more sleep for you guys! That's great!

We've been having quite a rough period. Cully caught a virus that was going around his nursery and he now has an ear infection again. Sleep has been abysmal but through the rough nights there's been a glimmer of hope. He's started to SS at times and last night he slept a three hour stretch at the start of the night!!! I'm also sensing that he is falling asleep differently. He doesn't seem to want so much rocking anymore.


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## freddie

seaweed eater said:


> Hooray for good nights! :happydance: Rachel that's wonderful!!
> 
> I need help with naps again. What do you guys think is the best of these options for a 12 month old:
> 
> 1. 80-90 minute morning nap and short, irregular afternoon nap (anywhere from 10 to 45 minutes, and at very different times each day)
> 2. Two 30-45 minute naps around the same times each day
> 3. One 45-90 minute midday nap around the same time each day
> 
> We're doing #1 at the moment, and it seems to result in the most sleep overall but some days there's a very very long WT. Yesterday he napped 8:10-9:30 and then fought a nap all day at daycare and finally napped in the car 4:20-4:30. Bedtime was around 6:45 as usual and he was apparently fine in the afternoon, but that's not a great schedule. I'd appreciate any thoughts!
> 
> Hope everyone is doing well. Seems we are all busy, but please come back and update :hugs:

That's a tough one! On one hand I think it's good for them to have regular timed naps but on the other I guess it depends how well your LO copes with shorter naps? I know that my little man doesn't do great with a short morning nap, he gets pretty grumpy during the day if his morning nap was shorter than usual but seems to manage ok if his afternoon nap is shorter than usual. 

So we didn't have the lovely eight hour stretch last night but he only woke up twice and only fed once at 12.30am... So still a very good night for him! Have been trying to figure out what we did to get that eight hour stretch of sleep lol but I know it is futile!!


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## little_lady

I've tried dropping Joel's third nap but he just starts screaming from overtiredness by the time it gets to 2.5 hours between naps, and I don't want to force it. I seem to remember my daughter was down to 2 naps by 6 months but I guess each child is different.

We've got night wakings down to two hourly now, which is better but still tiring. He seems to have forgotten how to self settle and needs me to rock his back or feed him to get him off again. It's funny, when he was 3 months old I thought I'd hit the sleep jackpot as he sttn 11 hours, self settled and napped four times a day for an hour each. His naps are still regular but his night sleep is really up the creek!

Don't know what else to try so might just have to suck it up :(


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## NotNic

How has everyone been? I'm hoping its been soo quiet because you all have lovely, sleeping babies? :)


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## seaweed eater

:wave: Fancy seeing this thread pop up again!

We are doing fine...naps are a bit of a mess right now due to 2-1 transition...nights are good, but mornings are very early (even earlier now that DST just ended. 3:45 this morning!!).

How are you, NotNic? How is everyone else?


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## Emma&Freya

Hi ladies, im up with my LO. She wont sleep and OH not helping :(


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## gaiagirl

Oh not much has changed here! Lol. We just got over a week of baby parties so at least that's behind us?!

Last night F was vomiting every time I laid him down soi rocked him upright from 4-7:40am. Good times!

Stilllllll waiting on my sttn ;)


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## NotNic

We have finally seen some improvements. He mostly sttn now which I think has a lot to do with his teeth all being through now. We've both had a nasty cough and cold, so he has been a bit disturbed, but not too bad. He's still an early bird mind you, but more 6.30 now rather than 5.30. I've taken to leaving him in the cot if he wakes before. Most of the time he does cry if I don't go to him, but they don't last much longer than 5mins and I have the confidence now to let him call out to see if he'll go back to sleep or play for a bit. Can't believe I've been part of this thread for 9mths now and the solution was just WIO. Waiting until his flipping teeth came through! Fingers crossed you aren't all waiting that long!!


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## gaiagirl

Oh I have a feeling it'll be 18-24 months for us before things are really improved! Honestly that seems pretty average without any sleep training!


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## NotNic

Everyone told me a year, so I was getting a bit doubtful when that came and went. I still wonder if we should have sleep trained but F's problem weren't ever going to sleep, and his motn parties were very rare. He just woke up multiple times most nights, cried in his sleep and tended to practice everything while sleeping. I still catch him sitting up asleep! I fear he'd be a great sleepwalker!


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## Meg26

Im sorry to hear your having trouble. My son was also a terrible sleeper. Our four month sleep regression lasted six months! I knew nothing of sleep training and when i finally lost it and broke down crying in front of my hubby he knew he had to do something. He found a sleep consultant in our area and with a couple weeks of hard work and more tears my boy finally sleeps again. I sure hope you can figure it out sooner than later!


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## polaris

Notnic, that's great news that things have improved so much. How old is F now? I know he's a couple of months older than Clara so you are giving me hope!

Things are still much the same here. Clara has dropped to one nap. She is still waking up multiple times a night and we are still cosleeping full time. She is very badly affected by teething and is currently getting back teeth so things are particularly bad at the moment.

SE that sounds like a horribly early morning! The one good thing about Clara's sleep is that she generally sleeps until at least 7 (often later).

Gaiagirl - I will be pleasantly surprised/amazed if Clara is sleeping well by 2 years old - I suppose we can live in hope!!


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## NotNic

He's 17mths now. By far the oldest baby on the thread! :) If you remember he was a terrible teether - but all through now and so much better. Has Thomas had a birthday? Did we miss it?


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## polaris

Yes, well-remembered, Thomas was four at the end of October. He is totally settled into preschool now too and absolutely loves it. I can't believe how grown up he is getting. In a way it makes the ongoing sleep problems more bearable because it's a constant reminder that they are only babies for such a short time.


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## NotNic

Ah belated birthday wishes for Thomas! My niece turned 6 on the 27th Oct. A fun time for a birthday!

I have a funny feeling that Clara's just going to get it. That one day it'll be like a light switch and she'll sleep through without you doing anything different. How's her moving around? Is she full time walking now?


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## polaris

That's Thomas's birthday too! 27th October. It is a fab time for a birthday. It's usually around the mid-term break so he gets a week off school and then all the Halloween stuff too. He was soo into Halloween this year.

Wow it would be great if Clara just suddenly decided to sleep! She is walking for a few months now, actually she is running - she is very physical, much more so than Thomas would have been. She's really working on language at the moment too, I'm doing baby signing with her and she knows over 30 signs which I think is pretty amazing! She has a few words too. I do think teething is a big factor here too - so maybe when that finally settles down? She still only has 8 teeth through though, so we've a bit of a way to go.


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## NotNic

What a coincidence! :) Finlay had 7 teeth at 13.5mths and then got all 9 of the remainder baby ones by 16mths. He came back from our holiday in Spain with a molar and a bottom tooth (in that order) and then it just snowballed. He didnt grow very much at all during that time though. All his efforts were on his teeth :) 

Clara's doing brilliantly with her milestones. You must be so proud of her x


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