# For those of you choosing NOT to vaccinate..



## roomaloo

What precautions are you taking to ensure your child's health/immune strength? Are you planning on seeing a homeopath/extended breastfeeding/feeding organic and natural as possible?

This isn't a trick question by the way, I'm looking for useful info :thumbup:


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## Rachel_C

Does this only apply to those who don't vaccinate? Most parents want to ensure their child's health :)


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## erikab922

From all of my research (FTR we are vaccinating but this applies to all LOs) the best thing you can do is make sure your LO is getting lots of Vitamin D. The current guidelines are way too little. I think for moms they recommend something like 400IU when research being done in Boston has found that it's more like 4000IU. They actually stopped a trial where pregnant women were in two groups - 2000IU and 4000IU because they realised it was detrimental to not allow them all to take the full 4000IU.

If you take 6000IU when breastfeeding, your LO will get enough Vit D via your breastmilk. I take 7000IU a day (one 5000IU capsule and a 2000IU capsule) and ever since I started with Vit D last year my allergies and asthma disappeared. My daughter hasn't even had a booger yet (Ok maybe she's just not a very mucousy child ;) ). 

Of course you will find studies to support anything and everything, but this one really struck a chord with me.

https://blog.vitamindcouncil.org/2012/06/25/the-breastfeeding-mother-breast-milk-as-a-biomarker/

https://www.vitamindcouncil.org/news-archive/2010/giving-infants-vitamin-d/


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## Rachel_C

erikab922 said:


> From all of my research (FTR we are vaccinating but this applies to all LOs) the best thing you can do is make sure your LO is getting lots of Vitamin D. The current guidelines are way too little. I think for moms they recommend something like 400IU when research being done in Boston has found that it's more like 4000IU. They actually stopped a trial where pregnant women were in two groups - 2000IU and 4000IU because they realised it was detrimental to not allow them all to take the full 4000IU.
> 
> If you take 6000IU when breastfeeding, your LO will get enough Vit D via your breastmilk. I take 7000IU a day (one 5000IU capsule and a 2000IU capsule) and ever since I started with Vit D last year my allergies and asthma disappeared. My daughter hasn't even had a booger yet (Ok maybe she's just not a very mucousy child ;) ).
> 
> Of course you will find studies to support anything and everything, but this one really struck a chord with me.
> 
> https://blog.vitamindcouncil.org/2012/06/25/the-breastfeeding-mother-breast-milk-as-a-biomarker/
> 
> https://www.vitamindcouncil.org/news-archive/2010/giving-infants-vitamin-d/

Any idea who funded this research?


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## roomaloo

Erica thanks, not looked at links but knew about vit d and have been taking it for myself for a while now. Even though I work outside, we just don't get enough sun in this country or bare enough flesh to get the right amount :D


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## veganmama

extended breastfeeding, natural healthy diet, no daycare, possibly homeschooling


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## erikab922

Rachel_C said:


> Any idea who funded this research?

The website itself is run by the Vitamin D Council which is of course given money by the Vitamin D folks, but the research that made me pay attention was run by Boston University Medical Center and Massachusetts General Hospital (a friend of mine's husband is a pediatric brain cancer researcher here and he's the only who first told me about it).


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## Rachel_C

Was it funded by them though? I only ask because I have read that a lot of Vitamin D research is funded by formula companies, who of course have a vested interest in telling us breastmilk is 'deficient' in anything.


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## erikab922

Rachel_C said:


> Was it funded by them though? I only ask because I have read that a lot of Vitamin D research is funded by formula companies, who of course have a vested interest in telling us breastmilk is 'deficient' in anything.

Oh no, I don't think so in this case:

https://www.vitamindcouncil.org/about-us/our-board/

https://www.vitamindcouncil.org/about-us/our-funding/


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## Rachel_C

This is interesting though:



> Our current sponsors are:
> 
> Stop Aging Now (Vitamin D supplements)
> Bio-Tech Pharmacal (Vitamin D supplements)
> ZRT Labs (Vitamin D home test kits)
> ESB Enterprises (UVB Tanning Beds)

People who basically make things selling Vitamin D/ways to increase your levels - not exactly impartial sponsors. 

And this isn't encouraging:



> Disclaimer
> 
> Executive Director Dr. John Cannell and his family receive royalties from his line of vitamin D products from Purity Products.


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## Rachel_C

Anyway back to the original question, even though we vaccinate I still try to ensure the kids' immune system is healthy, something that's particularly important to me as both my husband and I had Hodgkin's Lymphoma, a kind of blood cancer which is to so with the immune system. For me, that means not cleaning too much as a fairly big part of it! It's pretty well accepted that children in homes that are bleached to within an inch of their lives suffer more from allergies and catch bugs more often. I let the kids grub around in the dirt and I don't use bleachy type chemicals. I do use cleaning stuff, Method multi-purpose is what we're using at the moment, but only really in the kitchen and bathroom. 

We also try to eat healthily, get some decent exercise and my youngest will be breastfed as long as she wants. Both kids have worn amber necklaces which are supposed to help the immune system although I'm not convinced of the 'science'. I would use homeopathy as a complementary therapy if needed although I'm not convinced of that either.


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## Feronia

Wow Rachel, nice catch on the vitamin D funding. That's scary!

I won't be vaccinating but the precautions I plan to take are:
-extended breastfeeding (at least 2 years)
-keeping LO out of daycare entirely and away from crowded parks and shopping centres for a while
-an organic, vegan diet

However, I don't plan to keep LO in a bubble or anything -- playing around in the dirt is fine with me as it will help develop a strong, natural immune system. I don't know how effective chiropractic or naturopathic treatments are since I've never been able to find anything about how they actually work, but I wouldn't be adverse to learning more. These are just my plans at the moment! :)


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## amipregnant

This is something that i looked into after my son had his first sets of jabs. the MMR is coming up and im terrified so did lots of research. I personally have decided against this vaccination and am extending breastfeeding to 2 yrs, my lo has an organic diet. i have found two books very useful Boost your childs immune system by lucy burney and a book on what doctors dont tell you about vaccinations. my son wont be going to baby groups but has plenty of muck to roll round in! lol. i am interested in the vit d debate i will have to look into that more.


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## Rachel_C

Why would you keep LO away from baby groups, crowded places etc? Isn't it better for them to have a gradual exposure to bugs so that their immune system learns naturally how to deal with them, same as eating dirt?


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## Feronia

I'm definitely planning for a gradual exposure to dirt and germs. I'm just going to avoid going into crowded places for the first few months when the immune system is very delicate and when getting something like pertussis would be most dangerous.


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## Rachel_C

You'll be protected from that mostly by other people's vaccinations though, won't you? I've never seen it advised for newborns to stay away from people before their vaccinations (well, not in the last 20 years); I guess the same advice would apply to unvaccinated kids? I'm not trying to pick holes, just wondering!


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## Feronia

No, pick holes all you want, it helps me consider things!

My rationale is that since over 80% of people who are getting pertussis are fully vaccinated, and since people are finding that the vaccination is not particularly effective, that it doesn't matter whether I'm around vaccinated or unvaccinated people. I really only plan to be careful and stay away from crowded places for the first few months when just about any sickness is more serious than it is later on. :)


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## Rachel_C

I suppose it depends on the illnesses you see around you and your perception of risk. I don't think I have ever known anybody who has had any illness we vaccinate against here (we don't have the chicken pox vaccination as standard) so I wouldn't see the need to avoid people. That said, when my first LO was 6 weeks old MIL insisted on a huge meet the baby gathering and LO picked up a tummy bug. I used that as an excuse to get out of anything similar for my second LO :rofl:.


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## roomaloo

When you say extended breastfeeding, I was considering this, does it tend to be two feeds a day, morning and night, by that age, or is this not enough breast milk to be getting all the benefits if you see what I mean?


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## Rachel_C

What age do you mean by extended? Cos 2 years old, for example, isn't really extended, it's still well within the natural term of breastfeeding. Maybe 10 would be extended ;)

My LO is only a year old but she tends to have 3 milk feeds during the day, then more overnight, plus sometimes a snack for comfort if she's bumped herself or something. I think by 2 it will probably just be a couple of feeds in 24 hours, but some babies do more and some less. I'd say any is better than none, and even in one feed they must be getting antibodies and stuff.


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## SpringerS

Rachel_C said:


> Why would you keep LO away from baby groups, crowded places etc? Isn't it better for them to have a gradual exposure to bugs so that their immune system learns naturally how to deal with them, same as eating dirt?

I don't know much about baby groups but it definitely seems beneficial for babies to have exposure to dirt/bugs/etc. It's good for both their immune system and their ability to avoid developing allergies. For example it's been known for quite a long while that children who spend their first year living in the same house as a pet have lower instances of allergies. It's recently been shown that living with a pet for the first year also results in fewer infections in the first 6 years of life, with children who live with dogs who spend time in and out of the house having the best response with 77% less infections than children who don't live with animals. 

The most logical explanation for this is that the exposure to the small amounts of dirt an bacteria that the dogs track in and out of the house helps the baby's immune system to mature at a faster rate.


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## LoraLoo

Rachel_C said:


> *I suppose it depends on the illnesses you see around you and your perception of risk. I don't think I have ever known anybody who has had any illness we vaccinate against here* (we don't have the chicken pox vaccination as standard) so I wouldn't see the need to avoid people. That said, when my first LO was 6 weeks old MIL insisted on a huge meet the baby gathering and LO picked up a tummy bug. I used that as an excuse to get out of anything similar for my second LO :rofl:.

Measles, Meningitis? Babys immune systems are very weak for the first few weeks, I think its a good idea to avoid busy places and close contact with people tbh, especially if you are not going to vaccinate. The Meningococcal bacteria, for eg, is carried in the back of your nose and throat, and is passed by coughing, sneezing, kissing and close contact xx


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## NaturalMomma

I don't take percautions, but we do extended BFing, organic eating, etc. All that stuff. We also believe being exposed to germs is good, it helps build a strong immune system. We also don't go out if we're sick, which is rare. I would do those things even if we did vaccinate as I believe that is part of a healthy lifestyle.

In the first few weeks, 6-8 we don't go around large groups. Mainly because I'm not up to it, but I also dont' like people getting into my babies face. If there was an outbreak of a VPD that could be serious for my baby then I would avoid large crowds until it's over with.


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## Rachel_C

LoraLoo said:


> Rachel_C said:
> 
> 
> *I suppose it depends on the illnesses you see around you and your perception of risk. I don't think I have ever known anybody who has had any illness we vaccinate against here* (we don't have the chicken pox vaccination as standard) so I wouldn't see the need to avoid people. That said, when my first LO was 6 weeks old MIL insisted on a huge meet the baby gathering and LO picked up a tummy bug. I used that as an excuse to get out of anything similar for my second LO :rofl:.
> 
> Measles, Meningitis? Babys immune systems are very weak for the first few weeks, I think its a good idea to avoid busy places and close contact with people tbh, especially if you are not going to vaccinate. The Meningococcal bacteria, for eg, is carried in the back of your nose and throat, and is passed by coughing, sneezing, kissing and close contact xxClick to expand...

As I said, *I've never known anybody* who had had any of the illnesses vaccinated against. My point was that my perception of the risks from these illnesses is obviously going to be less than somebody who does know somebody who's had one of the illnesses. 

Why does the intention not to vaccinate affect anything for the first few weeks? NO babies are given vaccinations in the first few weeks (well apart from some like the BCG which is sometimes given), they're all unvaccinated at that point. If you're talking about avoiding people *because* you're not going to vaccinate, surely that would have to continue past a few weeks, more like into toddlerhood or beyond?


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## Feronia

I probably should have specified better. My decision not to vaccinate doesn't affect my decision to stay out of crowded areas for the first few months. I'm just hoping to avoid colds in general during that time. I'm due in winter anyway, so flu season will be in full swing!


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## LoraLoo

Rachel_C said:


> LoraLoo said:
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> Rachel_C said:
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> *I suppose it depends on the illnesses you see around you and your perception of risk. I don't think I have ever known anybody who has had any illness we vaccinate against here* (we don't have the chicken pox vaccination as standard) so I wouldn't see the need to avoid people. That said, when my first LO was 6 weeks old MIL insisted on a huge meet the baby gathering and LO picked up a tummy bug. I used that as an excuse to get out of anything similar for my second LO :rofl:.
> 
> Measles, Meningitis? Babys immune systems are very weak for the first few weeks, I think its a good idea to avoid busy places and close contact with people tbh, especially if you are not going to vaccinate. The Meningococcal bacteria, for eg, is carried in the back of your nose and throat, and is passed by coughing, sneezing, kissing and close contact xxClick to expand...
> 
> As I said, *I've never known anybody* who had had any of the illnesses vaccinated against. My point was that my perception of the risks from these illnesses is obviously going to be less than somebody who does know somebody who's had one of the illnesses.
> 
> Why does the intention not to vaccinate affect anything for the first few weeks? NO babies are given vaccinations in the first few weeks (well apart from some like the BCG which is sometimes given), they're all unvaccinated at that point. If you're talking about avoiding people *because* you're not going to vaccinate, surely that would have to continue past a few weeks, more like into toddlerhood or beyond?Click to expand...

What a really narky response, there was me thinking i was being helpful :shrug: wont bother next time.


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## Rachel_C

LoraLoo said:


> Rachel_C said:
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> LoraLoo said:
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> Rachel_C said:
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> *I suppose it depends on the illnesses you see around you and your perception of risk. I don't think I have ever known anybody who has had any illness we vaccinate against here* (we don't have the chicken pox vaccination as standard) so I wouldn't see the need to avoid people. That said, when my first LO was 6 weeks old MIL insisted on a huge meet the baby gathering and LO picked up a tummy bug. I used that as an excuse to get out of anything similar for my second LO :rofl:.
> 
> Measles, Meningitis? Babys immune systems are very weak for the first few weeks, I think its a good idea to avoid busy places and close contact with people tbh, especially if you are not going to vaccinate. The Meningococcal bacteria, for eg, is carried in the back of your nose and throat, and is passed by coughing, sneezing, kissing and close contact xxClick to expand...
> 
> As I said, *I've never known anybody* who had had any of the illnesses vaccinated against. My point was that my perception of the risks from these illnesses is obviously going to be less than somebody who does know somebody who's had one of the illnesses.
> 
> Why does the intention not to vaccinate affect anything for the first few weeks? NO babies are given vaccinations in the first few weeks (well apart from some like the BCG which is sometimes given), they're all unvaccinated at that point. If you're talking about avoiding people *because* you're not going to vaccinate, surely that would have to continue past a few weeks, more like into toddlerhood or beyond?Click to expand...
> 
> What a really narky response, there was me thinking i was being helpful :shrug: wont bother next time.Click to expand...

I didn't see that as narky, I'm sorry if you took it that way. I was just questioning what you said as it didn't make sense to me, still doesn't!


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## LoraLoo

Rachel_C said:


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> Rachel_C said:
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> *I suppose it depends on the illnesses you see around you and your perception of risk. I don't think I have ever known anybody who has had any illness we vaccinate against here* (we don't have the chicken pox vaccination as standard) so I wouldn't see the need to avoid people. That said, when my first LO was 6 weeks old MIL insisted on a huge meet the baby gathering and LO picked up a tummy bug. I used that as an excuse to get out of anything similar for my second LO :rofl:.
> 
> Measles, Meningitis? Babys immune systems are very weak for the first few weeks, I think its a good idea to avoid busy places and close contact with people tbh, especially if you are not going to vaccinate. The Meningococcal bacteria, for eg, is carried in the back of your nose and throat, and is passed by coughing, sneezing, kissing and close contact xxClick to expand...
> 
> As I said, *I've never known anybody* who had had any of the illnesses vaccinated against. My point was that my perception of the risks from these illnesses is obviously going to be less than somebody who does know somebody who's had one of the illnesses.
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> Why does the intention not to vaccinate affect anything for the first few weeks? NO babies are given vaccinations in the first few weeks (well apart from some like the BCG which is sometimes given), they're all unvaccinated at that point. If you're talking about avoiding people *because* you're not going to vaccinate, surely that would have to continue past a few weeks, more like into toddlerhood or beyond?Click to expand...
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> What a really narky response, there was me thinking i was being helpful :shrug: wont bother next time.Click to expand...
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> I didn't see that as narky, I'm sorry if you took it that way. I was just questioning what you said as it didn't make sense to me, still doesn't!Click to expand...

Which part :shrug:


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## Rachel_C

The part about particularly avoiding crowds if you're not planning to vaccinate, when no babies are routinely vaccinated then anyway. I understand why you might want to avoid crowds but I don't think vaccinating or not would make any difference to that choice.


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## LoraLoo

Rachel_C said:


> The part about particularly avoiding crowds if you're not planning to vaccinate, when no babies are routinely vaccinated then anyway. I understand why you might want to avoid crowds but I don't think vaccinating or not would make any difference to that choice.

I do see what you are saying. With the crowded places-I do think it is more so important to avoid if you choose not to vaccinate, I vaccinate and crowded places, especially in Winter and coughs and colds are rife, make me nervous, but thats probably because my child died from a bacterial infection.

Babies are first vaccinated at 8 weeks, i still think even at that point babies immune systems are very weak. Of course their immune systems strengthen as they get older, and there will always be certain things any of us may be exposed to that aren't covered by vaccinations, I do appreciate you can't avoid crowded places all together, and you can't wrap babies in cotton wool either, but i was just saying if I had a child and I chose not to vaccinate, its something I'd be wary of particularly in the first few weeks/months of life x


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## Rachel_C

Ahh see I was reading 'first few weeks' to mean the first month or so when all babies were unvaccinated. Makes more sense to me if you meant the first few months :)


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## NaturalMomma

I also think it depends on where you live. In my community VPDs are very rare, in fact we haven't had an outbreak of a VPD (other than flu, but there is research showing the flu vaccine doesn't even work) in a very long time.


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## Florance

LoraLoo said:


> Measles, Meningitis? Babys immune systems are very weak for the first few weeks, I think its a good idea to avoid busy places and close contact with people tbh, especially if you are not going to vaccinate. The Meningococcal bacteria, for eg, is carried in the back of your nose and throat, and is passed by coughing, sneezing, kissing and close contact xx

Something in your reply sounded very familiar. After looking at your signature, I remembered what it was: I read the story of your angel baby when I was pregnanted with my daughter. I am very, very sorry for your loss, and at the same time I thank you for sharing Eve's story with us; it reminded me how vulenerable a new born is. As a new mom, I was very eager to show off baby to other people, but I thought of the story of your baby and I knew it would be better to err on the side of caution. I didn't bring my daughter to anywhere with too many people in the first few weeks of her life, and we had one or two visitors over at a time instead of overwhelming her with too many people. Our visitors washed their hands before holding baby. Vaccinate or not, baby's immune system is fairly week in the first few weeks of her life. There is no point in completely avoiding the world, but at the same time I don't see any harm in minimizing the risk of getting baby sick in the first few week of his or her life.


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## LillyLee

So I'm on the fence about vaccinating. I've been doing research, but it's obviously (and scarily) swayed to polar opposites. On one hand you have doctors and medical companies saying vaccines are absolutely necessary and on the other hand you've got people who've gone their entire lives without vaccines and are perfectly healthy and plan on doing the same for their own children.

Question: If I can't avoid daycare should I be leaning more heavily toward actually getting LO vaccinated when she's born? Any thoughts and comments are appreciated.


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## NaturalMomma

LillyLee said:


> So I'm on the fence about vaccinating. I've been doing research, but it's obviously (and scarily) swayed to polar opposites. On one hand you have doctors and medical companies saying vaccines are absolutely necessary and on the other hand you've got people who've gone their entire lives without vaccines and are perfectly healthy and plan on doing the same for their own children.
> 
> Question: If I can't avoid daycare should I be leaning more heavily toward actually getting LO vaccinated when she's born? Any thoughts and comments are appreciated.

Many daycares require vaccinations. So that is something you should talk about with your provider. You'd also want to look at the risks in your community of not having your child vaccinated. Where I live VPDs are extremely rare, so I'm not at high risk of having unvaccinated children. If you're only at risk for certain things, measles for example, then you can still do that without doing the others.


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## LillyLee

NaturalMomma said:


> LillyLee said:
> 
> 
> So I'm on the fence about vaccinating. I've been doing research, but it's obviously (and scarily) swayed to polar opposites. On one hand you have doctors and medical companies saying vaccines are absolutely necessary and on the other hand you've got people who've gone their entire lives without vaccines and are perfectly healthy and plan on doing the same for their own children.
> 
> Question: If I can't avoid daycare should I be leaning more heavily toward actually getting LO vaccinated when she's born? Any thoughts and comments are appreciated.
> 
> Many daycares require vaccinations. So that is something you should talk about with your provider. You'd also want to look at the risks in your community of not having your child vaccinated. Where I live VPDs are extremely rare, so I'm not at high risk of having unvaccinated children. If you're only at risk for certain things, measles for example, then you can still do that without doing the others.Click to expand...

I could have made it more clear. The state I live in allows for a religious exemption so I should be covered on that front. How do I find out what's high risk in my area?


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## NaturalMomma

LillyLee said:


> NaturalMomma said:
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> LillyLee said:
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> 
> So I'm on the fence about vaccinating. I've been doing research, but it's obviously (and scarily) swayed to polar opposites. On one hand you have doctors and medical companies saying vaccines are absolutely necessary and on the other hand you've got people who've gone their entire lives without vaccines and are perfectly healthy and plan on doing the same for their own children.
> 
> Question: If I can't avoid daycare should I be leaning more heavily toward actually getting LO vaccinated when she's born? Any thoughts and comments are appreciated.
> 
> Many daycares require vaccinations. So that is something you should talk about with your provider. You'd also want to look at the risks in your community of not having your child vaccinated. Where I live VPDs are extremely rare, so I'm not at high risk of having unvaccinated children. If you're only at risk for certain things, measles for example, then you can still do that without doing the others.Click to expand...
> 
> I could have made it more clear. The state I live in allows for a religious exemption so I should be covered on that front. How do I find out what's high risk in my area?Click to expand...

You can look at the CDC for your state outbreaks, news sources, etc. 

Common out breaks that are VPDs (vaccine preventable disease) would be flu and whooping cough (pertusis). However, the flu vaccine isn't proven to work, and it says so on the box it comes in. And whooping cough is commonly found among those who are vaccinated against it.


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## mamawannabee

We're extended bfing, avoiding daycare if possible, and practicing good hygiene. Honestly, not vaccinating is NOT a huge risk. People who are uneducated about it think that all children will get sick, get other kids sick, and die or be disabled. The reality is that most kids will be just fine living the same life as a vaccinated child. And if they do get sick, most things will pass without a problem (flu, chicken pox, measles, mumps, rotovirus, even Hep A and B and polio, whooping cough, ect...)


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## roomaloo

How many months/years is classified as extended breastfeeding?


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## Rachiebaby24

Just to go back to the point - what else apart from good diet etc can you do?

My eldest daughter is nearly 4 and had her first three jabs (2, 3 and 4 month ones) and we have refused anymore. 

My youngest daughter is now 2 and she hasnt had any vaccines at all. 

The thing is, my youngest seems to pick up most bugs going and seems to always have a case of hand/foot/mouth whereas my eldest hasnt got it once. Now i know this isnt due to the vaccines but i wondered what else I can give her to boost her immune system. 

I have to add, my daughter sucks her fingers which i think contributes to the problem because other than wash her hands 50 times a day she will often put her fingers in her mouth. She is quite a clean freak child (if her hands are visibly dirty/sticky anything she will want to wash them) and washes after every toilet visit and when we come in from outside etc.


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## NaturalMomma

Try to get as much organic food as you can. Limiting chemicals from your body and home will help your immune system (chemicals in food can supress it). Being in nature is really great, try being outside as much as you can and go for walks in wooded areas (nature paths, etc). 

Some foods that help build good immunity is probiotics which are found in yogurt and kefir with live cultures. And also add some coconut oil to something daily, like oatmeal. I forget how much for you kids, but you can find out by googling coconut oil uses.


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