# MMR



## Serene123

I know these usually turn into a debate but with winter coming and reading about a little girl that had a stroke I'm doubting myself and need some help.

Caitlyn is almost 18 months old. She hasn't had the MMR. I chose not to give her the MMR because at the time of the jab she was low risk for measles, mumps and rubella, and I felt the risk of her having the jab was greater than not.

Now we're really social, in big groups of people, and she has been catching a few stomach bugs ect, I've been starting to worry. What if she _did_ catch mumps? I don't want her to end up paralysed.

I thought I had done all the research I needed to do, and I thought the ingredients of the injection was enough to put me off her having it 3-in-1, but we can't afford the seperate ones, and she definately isn't autistic. Maybe the chance of her getting ill from the jab is less than that of her getting paralysed, going blind or deaf, or dying from mumps?

I'm really at a loss. All these jabs coming up. Swine flu, MMR, seasonal flu jab.

Weighing up what she needed to have used to be so easy for me, but now I have no idea.


----------



## sophxx

i think its really a dission you need to make i dont think you ll every feel 100 per cent happy with it you ll always feel anixious!

ill be giving my baby the mmr wen the time comes and giving the swine flu if thats a option at the time!
i wont be giving the seasonal flu as i never had it as i child the doctor told us its only given in cases of low immune system bad chests ect!

x


----------



## dali

my lo had the mmr partly because if they catch the illness after being vaccinated there is a much lower chance of complications arising.... seasonal flu i have never given a thought, but the swine flu one after hearing it is likely to be offered to lo im not sure just gonna have to do a lot of reading on it and speak to dr to see what she says about it, the main reason i would consider it is incase it becomes a more dangerous strain which would still be closely related to the vaccine enought that the vaccine works for it ( seems mild as it is now but i dont have all the facts i will be looking into it very soon, as i odnt really like the idea of it but want all the facts before i decide)

anyway, it is entirely upto you whether to get the mmr or not. obviously after researching i decided it was definatly worth it, but that doesnt mean you will think so.
my advice is browse the internet ( nhs have alot of info on it ) make sure you are informed and then see how you feel... maybe talk to your gp about it ?
there will always be that nagging doubt in your mind but that is tio be expected as we all want what is best for our lo's and are scared of makeing the wrong choice :)


----------



## bubbles

Edward will definately be getting vaccinated, personally I think the risks of the diseases (death, paralysis etc) far out weigh the risks of the vaccine. I feel if it does cause autism I would be much better at dealing with this than losing my little boy. Rubella (german measles) can cause alot of complications for girls later on in life such as infertility so for me I would do it but this is just my two penneth xx


----------



## Ratty

I'll be giving Sean the MMR. The odd cases where people have said it caused Autism etc are so rare and as far as I know, its never been proven that the MMR was the cause.

There are millions of kids who have the vacciene every year and there is nothing wrong with them afterwards.


----------



## marley2580

There's just so many risks no matter what you do, you'll always worry. We don't vaccinate for the most part, remember that for most children mumps is a mild disease (just like most children are fine after the MMR).


----------



## Serene123

Rich had mumps when he was little and was fine, but you hear so many horror stories these days :dohh:


----------



## Rachiebaby24

Maley will be having the MMR. She will not be having the swine flu jab as its too new of an injection for us to consider giving it to her.


----------



## Trish

I feel the same as you in regards to vaccines. The ingredients are scary enough to put you off but then you wonder "what if they catch this". We ended up vaccinating for MMR but only because the daycare Marley will be attending will not allow children who are not vaccinated and it was too good of a place to turn down. As someone said before though, it is completely a personal decision. In the end you just do whatever you think is best for you and your child regardless of what other people say/think.


----------



## moomin_troll

zane had is mmr jab and i didnt think twice about it.

hes had all the jabs i had as a baby and they never hurt me.

zanes been great with his jabs so far but i am unsure about the swine flu jab altho it doesnt actualy give u anything but the protection so there shud be no side effects to the jab "apparently"


----------



## mommyof3co

We don't vaccinate so obviously no MMR either. I just suggest you do tons of research on both sides so you feel comfortable with whatever you choose :)


----------



## ryder

I gave the MMR and in my eyes there is no question about it. 

Here is a situation, lets pretend you DONT get Caitlin vaccinate and you become pregnant. Your baby is born and Caitlin gets one of those illnesses while your new baby is a newborn, so your newborn contracts it also. And while those illnesses arn't as fatal to a toddler, to a newborn they can be deadly. 

Also think about Caitlin's schooling, if your sending her to school, most schools require the vaccinations. 

I have researched the vaccines too and since there is no proof that the MMR causes autism, that is proof enough for me. The MMR vaccine has been around for years and has undergone extensive testing over and over again. 

Autism is something children are BORN with. It is not an environmental happening...

I do not believe in over vaccinating in any way. Im not getting Jasmine the chickenpox and I havent had her get any flu shots either. I usually dont get them either. 
Good luck with your decision!


----------



## candeur

I'm giving Seren he MMR definately.
I had the MMR and was still really ill (practically out cold for a couple of weeks) from the measles a few years later, the doctor told my mum had I not had the vaccine I would've been even worse... That has made my decision for me x


----------



## Linzi

I personally think that you should consider getting her it...

mostly because, there'll be worry going up to the jabs, and maybe she'll be a bit poorly after, but once she's over that you wont be thinking 'what if' all the time. You wont have to worry where you take her, who she'll be in contact with, what they've got, etc. You wont worry that its one of those problems every time she's ill. Thats maily why I had Seth done tbh because he gets everything going, his immune system is crap most of the time and he takes a long time to bounce back from anything so Imagine if he got measles!!! Also my aunt is a GP and both of her kids had it done, not even the single shots and believe me she could afford it if she wanted to!!

Also Ive read about some of the ingredients, but they're in pretty much all of the jabs I think anyway, even ones she's already had (or as I understand it).

Its always going to be your decision, and its never going to be an easy one. I remember afterwards when Seth was poorly I was thinking "why on earth did I do tghis to him, this is all my fault, wish Id never took him", but at the end of the day now if he's at nursery and one of the other kids gets measles I wont have to worry about him getting it too.


----------



## freckleonear

I tend to be wary of vaccines simply because I'm the kind of person who worries about the chemicals in processed foods, toiletries and cleaning products! Whilst I do have concerns about the safety of the Pandemrix swine flu vaccine, I am not particularly worried about the MMR so Aaron had his.

If you go to PubMed and type in "mmr" and "autism" (select the free full text option if you want to read more than just the abstracts) you can read all the scientific research yourself. You can also search for information about the safety of the individual ingredients.

Product Characteristics and Patient Information Leaflet details all the ingredients.

Personally I don't believe there is any link between the MMR and autism as the vast majority of research has shown no link at all. Wakefield's study was ethically and scientifically flawed (you can find plenty of info about this).

It's still a tough decision though! I'll admit I've had one or two moments when I've doubted my choice to give Aaron the MMR vaccine, but on the whole I'm happy that I did. He won't be getting the swine flu one though!


----------



## ryder

great info freckle, thanks for the site link.


----------



## babe2ooo

i wouldnt worry about the flu jab or the swine flu jab, but for me MMR is a must, the way i look at it is i had the MMR my oh had the MMR most people i know have had it and had no problems, i think theres more harm to your child if they dont have it, but thats just me, 

How come u would have 2 pay if u wanted them 1 by 1, and not all 3 2gether, i didnt think they could make u pay for that


----------



## coccyx

I nursed an 18 month old with measles. Not nice. he was very poorly


----------



## Midnight_Fairy

My son has autism. My son had the MMR before we knew about autism.

In my honest opinion, Autism doesnt kill a child wheras measles etc can in some cases. Its not really worth a risk is it?

My daughter was called for the MMR at 13mths however and we did delay untill 2 x


----------



## moomin_troll

ryder said:


> I gave the MMR and in my eyes there is no question about it.
> 
> Here is a situation, lets pretend you DONT get Caitlin vaccinate and you become pregnant. Your baby is born and Caitlin gets one of those illnesses while your new baby is a newborn, so your newborn contracts it also. And while those illnesses arn't as fatal to a toddler, to a newborn they can be deadly.
> 
> Also think about Caitlin's schooling, if your sending her to school, most schools require the vaccinations.
> 
> I have researched the vaccines too and since there is no proof that the MMR causes autism, that is proof enough for me. The MMR vaccine has been around for years and has undergone extensive testing over and over again.
> 
> *Autism is something children are BORN with. It is not an environmental happening...*I do not believe in over vaccinating in any way. Im not getting Jasmine the chickenpox and I havent had her get any flu shots either. I usually dont get them either.
> Good luck with your decision!

this is so true my brother has autism and from birth my mum knew there was something wasnt right with him.


----------



## kelly2903

she can still have the jab if you want her too just tell your drs....... you cant win with these jabs you research them and choose the best for you and ur family at the time but then like you get scared you made thewrong decision or some people dont research at all they just get fear put into them to have the jabs done its a no win situation... but its not to late to give her it not not saying you should thats your choice all the best. 

p.s caitlyn is gorgeous and grown so much not been on in a while but defo notice the difference in her. xx


----------



## Midnight_Fairy

moomin_troll said:


> ryder said:
> 
> 
> I gave the MMR and in my eyes there is no question about it.
> 
> Here is a situation, lets pretend you DONT get Caitlin vaccinate and you become pregnant. Your baby is born and Caitlin gets one of those illnesses while your new baby is a newborn, so your newborn contracts it also. And while those illnesses arn't as fatal to a toddler, to a newborn they can be deadly.
> 
> Also think about Caitlin's schooling, if your sending her to school, most schools require the vaccinations.
> 
> I have researched the vaccines too and since there is no proof that the MMR causes autism, that is proof enough for me. The MMR vaccine has been around for years and has undergone extensive testing over and over again.
> 
> *Autism is something children are BORN with. It is not an environmental happening...*I do not believe in over vaccinating in any way. Im not getting Jasmine the chickenpox and I havent had her get any flu shots either. I usually dont get them either.
> Good luck with your decision!
> 
> this is so true my brother has autism and from birth my mum knew there was something wasnt right with him.Click to expand...

This is not always true, My son didnt display any traits or anything out of the ordinary untill 14mths.


----------



## moomin_troll

even tho ur son didnt show any problems till 14 months doesnt mean he wasnt born with autism


----------



## Midnight_Fairy

Yes, But what I am saying is that the differences often become apparent between the ages 13-18mths. The ages the children recieve the MMR, This is why alot of people stem a connection x


----------



## isil

I think I understand what Emzy is saying. My aunt (one of those evil health visitors!) scared the wotsits out of me when she said that some kids will develop completely normal, give eye contact, interact etc then they hit however many months and it's like a switch flicks and they display the signs of being autistic. So it's not like something they always display from birth even if it's there from birth.

Anyway, back to original question. Toria, I know that you're anxious and I was too but I don't regret allowing Alasdair to have the MMR at all now. I'm so glad he's protected. I believe that she needs to be vaccinated and if that can't be through your preferred option of the seperate vaccines then it needs to be through the triple. That's just my opinion though and everyone's entitled to form their own :)


----------



## ryder

EmzyMathRuby said:


> Yes, But what I am saying is that the differences often become apparent between the ages 13-18mths. The ages the children recieve the MMR, This is why alot of people stem a connection x

Your completely right... Generally Autism doesn't become apparently until a child is 2-3 years old when they are due for major social milestones. The social milestones and interactions are the key thing to diagnosing autism. And there are SO many types of autism they can be diagnosed at all ages. 

Uneducated people don't seem to understand this and "blame" things like the MMR jabs for their childs imperfection rather then accepting their child as they are.


----------



## Hoping

My understanding is that the bloke who published the reports that the MMR caused autism has been struck off and is in jail because he was found to have totally fabricated his research. Just what someone told me. I did consider having the seperate jabs though, I felt there was no smoke without fire. However, I think I will go with the MMR. Also, Thomas will have the swine flu jab. 80% of under 5's who get it are developing complications which require hospitalisation and some are having to go to France due to a shortage of paed beds in England. I just wouldn't forgive myself if he got swine flu and something happened to him, imhu this risk is greater than the injection. Just my view from the research I have done though, each to their own.


----------



## marley2580

I have to say that there were actually 12 doctors that published the research, and all they said was that the measles virus was found in the brains of some children that also had autism and bowel problems and that this suggested that more research was needed. Then, when the shit hit the fan, 11 of the doctors recanted the research leaving just one to stand by the findings. I understand that he's now up to something in the USA, but I don't follow him. 

Remember that the autism link is not the only reason why people refuse the MMR, there are other reasons as well.


----------



## clairebear

Jacks has had his :D


----------



## Serene123

It's such a hard decision to make. Either way if anything happened I'm going to feel like shit. The last time I arranged to have it done, I got there and changed my mind. It just didn't feel right!


----------



## moomin_troll

i think all u can do is talk to the nurse about ur fears.

i had no doubt about giving zane his injections the only one im abit funny with his swine flu but thats only cuz its so new


----------



## Hollys_Twinny

I'm in the same boat as you now Hun, morgans mmr is overdue!!! And I just don't no what to do for the best!!!! My dads said If I decide to have the jabs seperate instead of the 3 in 1 then he'd go halfs with us! 

Just such a dificult decision to make!!!!

Think i'm going to see how much cash we have after Christmas and try and do them seperate? 

Does anybody know the difference this will make as I've done alot of research but can't find much about it!!!


----------



## Serene123

The reason I want the seperate ones, I can't speak for anyone else, is because seperately they don't contain as much metal.


----------



## Hollys_Twinny

Awww rite how much does it cost in your area to have them private? In mine its £47 each!! X


----------



## Serene123

Seriously? I thought the mumps one was more expensive as there's not much of it around anymore? I know the measles and rubella are £100 each. I thought the mumps one was more expensive x


----------



## keelykat

It's obviously a personal choice, it's up to you what you feel is best to do. My mom told me she struggled to decide when i was little and my mmr jabs were coming up. She chose to get mine done. 

I have just taken Elliot for his (yesterday). 

keely.


----------



## Hoping

Well, even the National Autistic Society states that there is "no statistically significant link between the MMR vaccine and autism. 
But I do take the point that it is not just about the Autism, although I am not really sure what else there is to be worried about so please can someone fill me in?

Thanks


----------



## marley2580

One of my concerns is the levels of aluminium, while the other is that the MMR does not actually give lifetime protection. In fact the immunity decreases from the very time when diseases such as mumps and rubella become really dangerous (eg after puberty mumps can make boys sterile). I also think that in many cases it's better to get the disease than the vaccine as the antibodies last forever. If any of my children had weakened immune systems or if I wasn't planning on home educating I might think differently.


----------



## ryder

Just an FYI, the seperate vaccines do not protect as well as the 1 vaccine with them together. Something about how the viruses work together when administered together. 

From a medical and safety reason I really can't understand why people wouldn't get the MMR. It doesnt make sense to me for people to not get it and put their kids/babies at risk, as well as other babies. 

I could never live with myself knowing that I could have prevented an infants death.


----------



## Foogirl

Mumps is far from a "mild disease" It is wholly unpleasant for a child (I know, I had it - and I had been vaccinated) It is rarely fatal but complications can arise such as meningitis, pancreatitis and sterility (in boys) Rubella in pregnancy can cause congenital abnormalities and complications from measles (which can be fatal) include deafness, blindness, brain damage etc etc.

Single vaccines are not the "safe" alternative as has been suggested. There was absolutely no evidence to suggest they were a better alternative to MMR in the original "scientific study" You might also be interested to know they are not currently licensed for use in the UK. This means that they have not passed through the Department of Health&#8217;s quality control procedures. The vaccines are also less effective and mean 6 separate trips which A) might not be completed and B) leave your child unrpotected for a much longer period. Whilst it may seem that a child's system will be over loaded, you might want to consider just how many things your child's immune system is bombarded with on a daily basis. Add to this that the first round of vaccines they get contain 7 different diseases, and you'll find a baby is more than able to cope with MMR. Abby had hers before she was even due to be born (she was 11 weeks early)

Also, the MMR jab doesn't contain mercury. There has been no evidence that alumunium is harmful and indeed the vaccine wouldn't work without it.

There have been countless studies around the world proving it is as safe as it can be, including one in Denmark which looked at every child born between 1991 and 1998. That's over half a million children. Almost 100,000 of these were not vaccinated and yet there was no difference in the incidences of Autism in the two groups. The inital scientific study was flawed and should never have been given the tabloid hype it was. The study involved 12 children, (that's 12 out of the millions of children across the world who have had the vaccination). Subsequent research was carried out to show the inital findings by Wakefield were incorrect and yet not one story has been carried by the Daily Mail (or any other tabloid) on that research. You might also ask why the MMR scare is virtually non existant outside the UK. Could it be because of the hugely over blown media coverage?

The bottom line is, unless you are against vaccinations generally for whatever reason, there is absolutely no reason not to have the MMR jab. Abby will have it, just as she has had all the others. I believe it is my responsibility not only to protect my own child but also to protect those who cannot be immunised and are at far more risk from these diseases.

As has been said, do your own research and draw your own conclusions. I highly recomment a book called "Bad Science" by Ben Goldacre. He does a whole section on just how flawed this hoax was and contains some very interesting information. You can rad an excerpt here https://www.badscience.net/2008/08/the-medias-mmr-hoax/


----------



## Foogirl

marley2580 said:


> One of my concerns is the levels of aluminium, while the other is that the MMR does not actually give lifetime protection. In fact the immunity decreases from the very time when diseases such as mumps and rubella become really dangerous (eg after puberty mumps can make boys sterile). I also think that in many cases it's better to get the disease than the vaccine as the antibodies last forever. If any of my children had weakened immune systems or if I wasn't planning on home educating I might think differently.

From https://www.immunisation.nhs.uk/files/factsheets1-3.pdf.

There is very little evidence that immunity to the measles,mumps or rubella vaccines wanes with time. It is known that children will remain immune for at least 27 years against measles, 18 years against rubella and 14 years against mumps. Apparently These "limits" are only given because this is the length of time the current vaccines have been available.

Even if individuals are not fully protected, the immune system will have some memory and be able to respond more quickly in the immunised than in those who have not been immunised.

Boosters are available for those who do not have full immunity. I had the MMR jab 18 years ago and showed an immunity to rubella when I was tested during pregnancy.


----------



## marley2580

The MMR has been around since 1988, that's 21 years not 14. The measles vaccine has been around since the 60s, so a lot longer than 27 years. I get what you're saying about the complications (though sterility is only a problem once boys hit puberty, around the time the MMR starts to wane) but those same complications can arise through chicken pox, yet most people in the UK think it shouldn't be vaccinated against.


----------



## Foogirl

marley2580 said:


> The MMR has been around since 1988, that's 21 years not 14. The measles vaccine has been around since the 60s, so a lot longer than 27 years. I get what you're saying about the complications (though sterility is only a problem once boys hit puberty, around the time the MMR starts to wane) but those same complications can arise through chicken pox, yet most people in the UK think it shouldn't be vaccinated against.

Not it their current form they haven't - according to the NHS website. The indications were that there was no evidence the immunity wanes over time, so they can only go by how long the current crop of vaccines have been in use.

They do say those who were vaccinated for measles before MMR came in will still have an immunity - and that even if there does prove to be a decrease, those who have had the MMR are still more protected than those who haven't. Plus, the second booster is given at about 4 years old so 14 years of protection would make a child 18 before (if at all) the immunity begins to decrease. And even then it's not as if bang on 14 years they would no longer be immune. And decrease would be gradual.

Complications from chicken pox are very rare in children and are different from those of mumps and measles, far less severe and certainly not fatal. I have always wondered why the vaccine isn't given here but I would say the NHS would give it if it were felt necessary.


----------



## babybaillie

I gave my 2 kids the mmr, because without them we would have a panademic on our hands. Never regretted it and this baby will get it too


----------



## Serene123

I still don't know what to do. I think we're probably going to get it done, because it does seem in her best interest. I'll see how I feel when I speak to a doctor. Thanks girls x


----------



## Novbaby08

I had Harley get the mmr shot, and she seems fine. They told me if she was going to have a reaction it would be within the week after, and so far nothing so. I wouldn't worry too much about autism and all that. They really don't have proof to say for sure that it causes it. Its kinda like different shots to prevent cancers like the guardisil shot, I got it. but it doesn't guarantee me a cervical cancer free life.


----------



## ryder

actually gardisel has been linked to some infertility issues. New immunizations I am not really for... I do think that there has to be a certain amount of testing done. I never got the gardisel vaccine. 

However, as the others have stated the MMR has been around for quite a number of years and extensive research has been done. 

Personally I think every child should get the MMR and parents who dont are irresponsible.


----------



## Novbaby08

ryder said:


> actually gardisel has been linked to some infertility issues. New immunizations I am not really for... I do think that there has to be a certain amount of testing done. I never got the gardisel vaccine.
> 
> However, as the others have stated the MMR has been around for quite a number of years and extensive research has been done.
> 
> Personally I think every child should get the MMR and parents who dont are irresponsible.

lol I actually only got it originally during a routine check up my dr offered it to me and I was like ok whatever. I was 18 then. A few months later all these reporters on tv were talking about the terrible things that can happen afterwards lol.



My point was there's no point in worrying unless they can say for sure.


----------



## ryder

ya exactly! I was really disapointed because I was too old to get it free. I think they gave it at schools for grade 8 girls, but anyone else had to pay and it was expensive, so I never got it.


----------



## mommyof3co

Why does it always have to come to parents that choose something different than you are therefore irresponsible, stupid, ignorant and the list goes on? You choose what's right for your kid and I'll do the same for mine :) Does it make me irresponsible that I would put in hours and hours of research, talk to many different doctors, nurses, parents and my husband for hours about just this one subject? I think it would be more irresponsible had I just gone ahead and done it knowing what I do and feeling the way I do about the MMR and other vaccines. I do what's right for my kids and don't put down anyone who believes in the vaccines....I'm sure people would be in an uproar had I or anyone else gone and said people who give vaccines are irresponsible because of this, this and that. Why does it have to come to name calling instead of giving your opinion and moving on? 


Toria I hope you figure out what you want to do and feel comfortable with your choice and no matter which way you go that she has no ill side effects either way! Good luck talking to your dr I hope they can clear up any questions you have :)


----------



## britneysbitch

I'm in two minds too! My mother had rubella when pregnant with my brother (who's now 21). She was never vaccinated and my brother was born profoundly deaf and with intellecutal disabilities--he was always very behind in school and really struggled with it all. So I made my mind up when I had a child I would def. be giving him/her a vaccination and make sure I was immune before getting pregnant myself. (I checked and I am immune thank God.)
But then I met OH/FOB, who has a son from a previous relationship. He was vaccinated against MMR bang on 18 months. Literally a week later OH says he shut off and was found to be autistic a couple of years later when his mother finally took him in to be evaluated. 
I don't know what to do, I personally don't believe it WAS the vaccine that caused it but OH is convinced and is dead against immunising this one (also a boy, and autism is far more common in boys apparently.) After seeing what happened with my brother since Mum wasn't, and the struggles he's had in life, I am a strong believer in immunisation. 
I am very stuck as well! I would say do it and get her done, but I am talking from experience growing up with a disabled brother from rubella. I wish I could do the same but it's a matter of getting OH to agree with me after his experience with his first son and thinking it was the vaccine that did this to him.


----------



## BlackBerry25

I guess some people find it irresponsible because it not only can affect your children, it can affect ours. Whereas, if we vaccinated, it doesn't affect you at all.


----------



## mommyof3co

Well I can understand that BUT I chose not to vaccinate not because I didn't want to but because I feel it is actually dangerous to my kids health, to me it's much more risky for them to have these vaccinations than to not....so saying it's irresponsible to not vaccinate is completely wrong....it would be irresponsible if I did while feeling this way. And I get that people believe in the herd immunity so more kids not vaccinated means more risk to their child but what if someone was asking you to do something to your kid that you felt was dangerous to their health/life would you do it? Would you feel the same way, that it's irresponsible because it "might" offer some benefit to other kids? I have to say probably not...you have to put your kids first always, other kids come next. I would NEVER expect someone to put their child above mine or do something with their child they felt would be harmful to possibly benefit my child.


----------



## BlackBerry25

No, I know. :)

I understand your thinking, Mama :hugs: and I am glad you understand mine. I want what is best for my daughter as well.

I do have a question for you though, are any of your sons in school yet? Has the school board said anything about it to you or do they not check into that in your area? Just curious. So far I have given Helena all the recommended vaccines, but I know for sure that I do not want the Gardisil one.


----------



## mommyof3co

wendino said:


> No, I know. :)
> 
> I understand your thinking, Mama :hugs: and I am glad you understand mine. I want what is best for my daughter as well.
> 
> I do have a question for you though, are any of your sons in school yet? Has the school board said anything about it to you or do they not check into that in your area? Just curious. So far I have given Helena all the recommended vaccines, but I know for sure that I do not want the Gardisil one.

Yep, Landon is in school, Casen will start next year :) Here they do "require" vaccines but every state has different types of exemptions...all states have medical (meaning they can't have them because they are allergic or other medical condition) and religious (their religions don't allow them to get certain vaccines). Many states also have what is called a philosophical exemption which is basically just that you don't believe in them. Both Texas and Colorado, the two states we have lived in since Landon has started school, accept the philosophical exemption so we just have to do what's required to get that. In Colorado there is a spot on the back of the vaccine record where you sign then you give that to the school. In TX we had to order a sheet from the state and have it notarized and we give that instead of a vaccine record to enroll him in school


----------



## Novbaby08

ryder said:


> ya exactly! I was really disapointed because I was too old to get it free. I think they gave it at schools for grade 8 girls, but anyone else had to pay and it was expensive, so I never got it.

lol for me they handed it out like candy. Most painful aftermath from any shot I've ever had, my whole arm was feeling like shit for at least a week. But like several months later some girl was on the news who is now paralyzed from it. weird.


----------



## Foogirl

mommyof3co said:


> but what if someone was asking you to do something to your kid that you felt was dangerous to their health/life would you do it?

If all the current scientific and professional advice was proving me wrong, yes I would.

Abby was in NNICU for 11 weeks. There were many things that happened to her in there that made me think "how can that be good for her" I did the research and discovered these things were in fact in her best interests and without them she could have been in trouble.


----------



## Foogirl

britneysbitch said:


> I am very stuck as well! I would say do it and get her done, but I am talking from experience growing up with a disabled brother from rubella. I wish I could do the same but it's a matter of getting OH to agree with me after his experience with his first son and thinking it was the vaccine that did this to him.

I would stick to your guns and appeal to his man logic.

Ask him to show you any properly conducted scientific study that shows there is a link to autism. Then ask him to show you any properly conducted scientific study that shows there is no link to rubella in pregnancy and congenital defects. And for good measure, ask him do to the same for the death rates in measles. Point out to him your daughter is more likely to come from harm in the home or in the car than she is from the MMR vaccination.

If all else fails, ask him if he would rather risk your daughter being harmed from something with, by his reasoning, a miniscule chance of a manageable disability, or a much larger proven chance of a far more serious outcome.

Certainly if my OH disagreed, I'd have it done despite him as I believe so strongly it is in her best interests.


----------



## Serene123

:dohh:

Can there ever just be a thread where people live, and let live? If you've vaccinated then how are children that aren't vaccinated affecting your kids?


----------



## xHx

I decided to go with the seperate jabs - Liv had her Measles one last month and has her Rubella on Friday. The mumps vaccine is no longer available though - and they don't think they will be making it anymore. I am not too concerned with Liv being a girl plus I had mumps when I was small so she may have gained some natural immunity through me. But if I had a little boy I would probably have thought differently. My worry was that I actually know 2 seperate people who have autistic children who blame the MMR 100%. It makes it a little more real when its people you know and not just horror stories in the paper. Obviously, their cases haven't been proven but it scared the crap out of me! x


----------



## princess_bump

i was very concerned about giving maddi mmr, and had planned to have it done separately, then they stopped making the mumps vaccination, and after extensive research, i decided to go ahead with mrr, after delaying it for a few months. i'm glad we had it done if i'm honest, as we are always out and about and worry about her picking up things x


----------



## Foogirl

toriaaaaTRASH said:


> :dohh:
> 
> Can there ever just be a thread where people live, and let live? If you've vaccinated then how are children that aren't vaccinated affecting your kids?

Because if everyone vaccinated these diseases could be wiped out then there would be no need. Also, it is still possible for a vaccinated child to contract these diseases, and although they are less severe, they still aren't pleasant.

Then there are the children who cannot be vaccinated. My next child could be one of them.

Having said that, if someone makes a personal choice not to do it, it is entirely up to them and I respect them for that. I don't understand it but I do respect it.


----------



## Midnight_Fairy

I have had the jab for measles 3 times now and and when I have blood tests I am still not immune to it apparently.


----------



## Midnight_Fairy

Forgot to add they wont jab me anymore lol the doctor said if it doesnt work after 3, It isnt likely too.


----------



## BlackBerry25

toriaaaaTRASH said:


> :dohh:
> 
> Can there ever just be a thread where people live, and let live? If you've vaccinated then how are children that aren't vaccinated affecting your kids?

It can affect my unborn child or children that have not been vaccinated yet.


----------



## ryder

wendino said:


> toriaaaaTRASH said:
> 
> 
> :dohh:
> 
> Can there ever just be a thread where people live, and let live? If you've vaccinated then how are children that aren't vaccinated affecting your kids?
> 
> It can affect my unborn child or children that have not been vaccinated yet.Click to expand...


Exactly, as we've pointed out continually.... Children cant get the MMR before a year, so this puts babies under a year at risk. Mine, yours, everyones baby. And if your child is out in the public unvaccinated and my baby gets an illness which could have been prevented, then it is my business.


----------



## ryder

Also to add, for children under a year, those illness's can be extremely fatal.


----------



## Serene123

So can a car crash, but people still drive to places they could walk to :lol:

We have freedom in our countries and we're very lucky to have it. The freedom to make our own decisions and decide what we want for our children and our families. I don't think it's irresponsible to not get your child vaccinated if you're doing it for the right reasons.

I won't make the comparison I was going to make, but not everyone does the best thing for their children in other peoples eyes. Albeit because they're uncomfortable or because they don't want to, it's still their choice.


----------



## ryder

mommyof3co said:


> Well I can understand that BUT I chose not to vaccinate not because I didn't want to but because I feel it is actually dangerous to my kids health, to me it's much more risky for them to have these vaccinations than to not....so saying it's irresponsible to not vaccinate is completely wrong.....

Thats entirely your opinion. It is not a fact though and you cant back up that those are dangerous. Your opinion is based on things you chose to pick out a dwell on without medical knowledge or bases. 

You dont want to vaccinate... fine... stay in your house and dont socialize and put others at risk. Everytime you go out into the public your putting a little baby or pregnant woman at risk... and IMO it is rather selfish and irresponsible. 

I wouldnt socialize with someone whose children were not vaccinated.


----------



## ryder

toriaaaaTRASH said:


> I won't make the comparison I was going to make, but not everyone does the best thing for their children in other peoples eyes. Albeit because they're uncomfortable or because they don't want to, it's still their choice.

Breastfeeding wont save your childs life, it wont save your newborn babies life and it wont save other peoples babies/children. The MMR prevention vaccine WILL save lives of your children, babies and other children/babies.


----------



## Serene123

Right, and chicken pox kills children too sometimes. Are you getting Jasmine vaccinated against that?

I quite frankly care more about my child than other peoples, and if her infecting other people is better for her than the vaccine, IMO, then she won't have it. I have decided to get her the MMR, but that's my choice. I don't think other people should do the same unless they want to.


----------



## Hevz

I don't understand why you're asking......you're asking for peoples opinions but then you attack them if they don't give you the answer you want to hear.....as usual:shrug:



:coffee:


----------



## Midnight_Fairy

ryder said:


> mommyof3co said:
> 
> 
> Well I can understand that BUT I chose not to vaccinate not because I didn't want to but because I feel it is actually dangerous to my kids health, to me it's much more risky for them to have these vaccinations than to not....so saying it's irresponsible to not vaccinate is completely wrong.....
> 
> Thats entirely your opinion. It is not a fact though and you cant back up that those are dangerous. Your opinion is based on things you chose to pick out a dwell on without medical knowledge or bases.
> 
> You dont want to vaccinate... fine... stay in your house and dont socialize and put others at risk. Everytime you go out into the public your putting a little baby or pregnant woman at risk... and IMO it is rather selfish and irresponsible.
> 
> I wouldnt socialize with someone whose children were not vaccinated.Click to expand...



What about when your child starts school? or people you see at swimming pools, theme parks,supermarkets:dohh:


----------



## mommyof3co

Foogirl said:


> mommyof3co said:
> 
> 
> but what if someone was asking you to do something to your kid that you felt was dangerous to their health/life would you do it?
> 
> If all the current scientific and professional advice was proving me wrong, yes I would.
> 
> Abby was in NNICU for 11 weeks. There were many things that happened to her in there that made me think "how can that be good for her" I did the research and discovered these things were in fact in her best interests and without them she could have been in trouble.Click to expand...


Well when I see all the scientific evidence proving them SAFE and nontoxic for my kids then we will reconsider :) There is no proof showing they are completely safe for all kids, there are risks with vaccines, there are risks with not vaccinating. You have to weigh which are higher and IMO they are higher with vaccines and our doctor actually completely agrees with us not vaccinating against most, there are a couple she did recommend but fully respects our decision and our reasons for not...it's not like they aren't valid and I'm just not doing it just because


----------



## mommyof3co

ryder said:


> mommyof3co said:
> 
> 
> Well I can understand that BUT I chose not to vaccinate not because I didn't want to but because I feel it is actually dangerous to my kids health, to me it's much more risky for them to have these vaccinations than to not....so saying it's irresponsible to not vaccinate is completely wrong.....
> 
> Thats entirely your opinion. It is not a fact though and you cant back up that those are dangerous. Your opinion is based on things you chose to pick out a dwell on without medical knowledge or bases.
> 
> You dont want to vaccinate... fine... stay in your house and dont socialize and put others at risk. Everytime you go out into the public your putting a little baby or pregnant woman at risk... and IMO it is rather selfish and irresponsible.
> 
> I wouldnt socialize with someone whose children were not vaccinated.Click to expand...


That's just ridiculous to say. I don't pick and choose without any medical knowledge, you have no idea what I base my decisions on, what background I have, my family has or what my doctor recommends. I have touched on a bit of what our decision was based on but never gone into full detail here. What I based my decision on was FACT. It is a FACT that vaccines CAN be dangerous, it is a FACT they have major risks. I never said the diseases don't but IMO for MY kids the risks of vaccines is higher. I'm sorry if you feel I'm putting your child at risk but I refuse to put mine at risk for benefit of yours, if that makes me selfish then I'm selfish and I don't care one bit, because my kids mean the most to me and will always be put first and then I will take into consideration other kids. I will never put my child at risk for yours or anyone elses. And I will not keep them in the house. Its like people seem to think that because my kids aren't vaccinated they are just carrying these diseases around or something :dohh: Most adults aren't up to date on their boosters, maybe they should have to hide away or something. I'm glad I have the choice to do what's best for my kids and with that choice comes the freedom to put them in school, take them anywhere I please and be around other children. My kids aren't putting yours at anymore risk that another vaccinated child. They have a very healthy immune system, built up naturally. 

I find it quite funny that you seem to think I'm so judging but it's very apparent who really is. What to become your friend does someone have to give you a copy of their medical record??? It's not like you can look at a child and know if they are vaccinated.


----------



## Mervs Mum

toriaaaaTRASH said:


> I know these usually turn into a debate but with winter coming and reading about a little girl that had a stroke I'm doubting myself and need some help.
> 
> Caitlyn is almost 18 months old. She hasn't had the MMR. I chose not to give her the MMR because at the time of the jab she was low risk for measles, mumps and rubella, and I felt the risk of her having the jab was greater than not.
> 
> Now we're really social, in big groups of people, and she has been catching a few stomach bugs ect, I've been starting to worry. What if she _did_ catch mumps? I don't want her to end up paralysed.
> 
> I thought I had done all the research I needed to do, and I thought the ingredients of the injection was enough to put me off her having it 3-in-1, but *we can't afford the seperate ones*, and she definately isn't autistic. Maybe the chance of her getting ill from the jab is less than that of her getting paralysed, going blind or deaf, or dying from mumps?
> 
> I'm really at a loss. All these jabs coming up. Swine flu, MMR, seasonal flu jab.
> 
> Weighing up what she needed to have used to be so easy for me, but now I have no idea.


The one thing that jumps out and punches me square on the end of the nose about this thread is the above statement followed by this:

https://www.babyandbump.com/santas-grotto/228300-finished-here-got-whats-yours-3.html#post3689950

and this:

https://www.babyandbump.com/santas-grotto/228300-finished-here-got-whats-yours-6.html#post3700592

:rofl:


----------



## Hevz

:haha:


There were a couple of examples that sprang to my mind too but I cba trawling through all the millions of posts bragging about how much she'd spend on Xmas presents:wacko:


----------



## Foogirl

mommyof3co said:


> Well when I see all the scientific evidence proving them SAFE and nontoxic for my kids then we will reconsider :) There is no proof showing they are completely safe for all kids, there are risks with vaccines, there are risks with not vaccinating. You have to weigh which are higher and IMO they are higher with vaccines and our doctor actually completely agrees with us not vaccinating against most, there are a couple she did recommend but fully respects our decision and our reasons for not...it's not like they aren't valid and I'm just not doing it just because

You mean evidence other than the millions and millions of children who have been vaccinated without any serious side effects whatsoever? And the studies done in places such as Denmark (as I mentiond earlier) and Finland to name but two. Or the evidence of death or disability caused by childhood illnesses across the world? I personally find the risks from the illnesses are far higher.

Your doctor has to respect your decision, they can't force anyone to vaccinate.

Whether or not your reasons are valid is a matter of opinion.


toriaaaaTRASH said:


> Right, and chicken pox kills children too sometimes. Are you getting Jasmine vaccinated against that?

Death rates from chicken pox are so very very low in children (around 0.0023%) and usually only occur in otherwise unhealthy children. Serious complications are also very rare.


----------



## ryder

exactly foogirl... im glad that there are some people who have a good understanding. 

And BTW, here children are required to show proof of MMR vaccines to get into any school or daycare, and canada has a very low rate of unvaccinated children. 

And ya.... regarding the christmas present thread?!?!? You can afford to spend thousands on materialistic things like toys, but you cant spend a couple hundred on vaccines to save your child and her newborn sibling that is going to be born in the near future.


----------



## Tegans Mama

My LO hasn't had her MMR yet. She is getting it, eventually. We are still on the 12 month jabs, since she has been ill so much lately that appointments for the jabs have been made and cancelled repeatedly..

Does anyone know how much the MMR costs to be done seperately? I'd be interested in paying for it for my LO.


----------



## ryder

btw, risks from things like the flu vaccine or h1n1 vaccine are higher then risks with the MMR.


----------



## marley2580

Why can't people just respect other people's choices. You may not agree with them, but they are our choices to make. This happens with everything about parenting - dummies or not, weaning at 4 months or 6, breastfeeding or formula, co-sleeping or cot, smacking or not. Everyone does something that someone else won't agree with, but it doesn't need to get personal the way this thread seems to be going.


----------



## ryder

giving YOUR kid a dummy isnt going to potentially kill another womans baby.


----------



## mommyof3co

Foogirl said:


> mommyof3co said:
> 
> 
> Well when I see all the scientific evidence proving them SAFE and nontoxic for my kids then we will reconsider :) There is no proof showing they are completely safe for all kids, there are risks with vaccines, there are risks with not vaccinating. You have to weigh which are higher and IMO they are higher with vaccines and our doctor actually completely agrees with us not vaccinating against most, there are a couple she did recommend but fully respects our decision and our reasons for not...it's not like they aren't valid and I'm just not doing it just because
> 
> You mean evidence other than the millions and millions of children who have been vaccinated without any serious side effects whatsoever? And the studies done in places such as Denmark (as I mentiond earlier) and Finland to name but two. Or the evidence of death or disability caused by childhood illnesses across the world? I personally find the risks from the illnesses are far higher.
> 
> Your doctor has to respect your decision, they can't force anyone to vaccinate.
> 
> Whether or not your reasons are valid is a matter of opinion.
> 
> 
> toriaaaaTRASH said:
> 
> 
> Right, and chicken pox kills children too sometimes. Are you getting Jasmine vaccinated against that?Click to expand...
> 
> Death rates from chicken pox are so very very low in children (around 0.0023%) and usually only occur in otherwise unhealthy children. Serious complications are also very rare.Click to expand...


And that is your right as a parent, you believe in them and that's just fine. But it doesn't make my reasons any less valid or less FACT. Yes many kids around the world get vaccinated with no ill side effects...Landon and Casen have had some vaccines but we have stopped and they were fine, yes...from what we can tell atleast. Also many kids have these diseases around the world and recover just fine. Many kids have the vaccines and have horrible side effects. (you can look at the database to see all the reported reactions, that vary from very mild to death....it's also said that only about 1/3 are actually reported on there, and it's just for the US) Many kids have the diseases and have horrible side effects. That goes all ways. It's not like the vaccines have no risks, you are given sheets with long lists of the side effects each time you get a vaccine....atleast here you do. It is fact that vaccines have risk...it's how much you weigh that risk...to me it's much more than the disease...to you it's not that's fine. But it doesn't make me an irresponsible parent because I follow my research and my heard and do what's best for my child....it doesn't make me any more irresponsible than it makes you for doing them. It's a risk you take either way, I don't think people need to be put down for their choices and called irresponsible or anything else. Of course I can't be forced, that's not what I meant by my dr agrees...my pediatrician has kids and her kids even don't have all vaccines, there are some she does believe in though and they have them. I just don't understand why these threads end up having someone attacking other people's choices. As parents we do what we can for our kids and what we feel is best, why put someone else down because their best is different than yours


----------



## Mervs Mum

I respect everyones choices. I have said yes to some vaccinations and no to others after weighing up the pros and cons for me and my family. I'm not pro or anti vaccinations. I do however think it's ludicrous to start a thread saying you'd be happy to have the vaccination if it were separated but cant afford to but you can afford a Christmas list that would pay for the separate vaccination 3 or 4 times over. 

What's it to be? A vaccination you want your child to have but cant afford or every single In The Night Garden toy on the planet?


----------



## isil

reading these threads make me so tired! I think I'll just stop reading lol.


----------



## Foogirl

mommyof3co said:


> But it doesn't make me an irresponsible parent because I follow my research and my heard and do what's best for my child....it doesn't make me any more irresponsible than it makes you for doing them. As parents we do what we can for our kids and what we feel is best, why put someone else down because their best is different than yours

I haven't ever said you were an irresponsible parent. Nor have I put you down for making the decision you have. I stated I don't understand why (given the overwhelming evidence of the benefits v the risk) anyone would. I also stated I respect anyone's personal choice.


----------



## mommyof3co

No I"m sorry that part wasn't directed at you, it was something another person said in the thread, I was just responding to what you said and that all at once. I completely respect anyone's decision to vaccinate and I would appreciate the same respect even if you don't agree, you don't have to put it down...kwim? Not you again, just in general. It's not like we went into our decision blindly :)


----------



## britneysbitch

Foogirl said:


> britneysbitch said:
> 
> 
> I am very stuck as well! I would say do it and get her done, but I am talking from experience growing up with a disabled brother from rubella. I wish I could do the same but it's a matter of getting OH to agree with me after his experience with his first son and thinking it was the vaccine that did this to him.
> 
> I would stick to your guns and appeal to his man logic.
> 
> Ask him to show you any properly conducted scientific study that shows there is a link to autism. Then ask him to show you any properly conducted scientific study that shows there is no link to rubella in pregnancy and congenital defects. And for good measure, ask him do to the same for the death rates in measles. Point out to him your daughter is more likely to come from harm in the home or in the car than she is from the MMR vaccination.
> 
> If all else fails, ask him if he would rather risk your daughter being harmed from something with, by his reasoning, a miniscule chance of a manageable disability, or a much larger proven chance of a far more serious outcome.
> 
> Certainly if my OH disagreed, I'd have it done despite him as I believe so strongly it is in her best interests.Click to expand...

It's so hard a choice for me to make! I didn't turn out an autistic child, he did. I wasn't there when he says it all changed with his son. He's convinced and I mean convinced it was MMR that did it, BUT I spoke to him last night and he can see it from my viewpoint as well. When you grow up with a brother who was directly affected by non-immunisation you can see the importance of it, or at least I can. 
I don't know... is this a decision we should both totally agree on or does it only need one of us to want to do it? OH's first son (who's 6 now) isn't an easy child, but like I said I don't believe MMR caused the autism. I guess nobody knows 100%, but that's my opinion. OH won't change his and I'm worried that in the event this boy comes out with autism (however it happens) I will feel like it's my fault if I got him immunised and OH blames that and he will resent me.


----------



## Novbaby08

Well I always get Harley's vaccinations done. But I don't do flu shots. Though while I was at the Dr earlier this month they gave me one. Sounds bad because my toddler doesn't have one. But she never gets sick. Her whole life she's been sick once....with a cold. So I don't do those.


----------



## BlackBerry25

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Exactly. Why start a thread if you don't wanna hear the different sides of the story? Thats what you asked for.

Mommyof3co, I know you did not go into your decision blindly, but I am wondering do your children have medical problems that make them different from other children, therefore making it unsafe for them? Again just curious. I don't really understand why people would go against what their country and the WHO suggests for their children. People who have gone to school and studied medicine recommend it and get it for their children, so I do as well.

I agree with Joss though. I would not let Helena be around children who I knew were not vaccinated. Of course I wouldn't say to someone SHOW ME YOUR MEDICAL RECORDS. But if it came up I would be concerned and wonder why someone in this country who has these things avaliable to them are not taking advantage of it.

I will def. be asking Helena's future school about their policies on it.

I guess Beth, some people feel just as strongely for the vaccine as you feel against them. That's all.


----------



## mommyof3co

I understand that fully, and that's just fine, but putting someone down for their choices is completely different. I have nothing against vaccines for other kids, they aren't for mine, I don't put down anyone for getting them I feel like I shouldn't be put down for mine by being called irresponsible or ignorant (which has been said in other threads). 

No they have no medical issues, it's not that I feel they are more dangerous for them vs say your child. It's how I view things. Just after comparing the chances of them getting the disease to the risks of having the disease to the "benefits" of having the disease naturally vs a vaccine and the fact that they would for sure come into contact to what I feel are toxins to their bodies and the risks that come with vaccinating. It's just what I feel for them. Where say you look at it and see how dangerous the diseases are and how beneficial the vaccines are I see it the opposite way even with the same facts. Does that make sense haha


----------



## BlackBerry25

Yup!

I never have known anyone to make that decision, that is why I am asking so many questions. :)


----------



## mommyof3co

I don't mind answering :) As long as I'm not put down for the decision I make for my family


----------



## marley2580

wendino said:


> I don't really understand why people would go against what their country and the WHO suggests for their children. People who have gone to school and studied medicine recommend it and get it for their children, so I do as well.

I intend to Home Educate as that is what I believe is best for my children. My Govt recommends that you send your children to school, as do many 'education experts' but I wouldn't send my children anywhere near a state school, or any other school for that matter simply because the govt told me to. The UK govt told everyone that British Beef was safe for years before they admitted our cows all had mad cow disease! I have done my research and decided what is best for my family. As it happens a lot of the children my kids will be mixing with won't have been vaccinated either.

I'm curious, if you're getting all the vaccinations why are you worried about your kids mixing with unvaccinated children?


----------



## Serene123

I've only read the 10th page because I know it has kicked off. I did want to know both sides, I just didn't like the irresponsible comment. Jeez. 

Some things will never change, I guess.


----------



## hsollis

Here in the Netherlands, they put all regular vaccinations on hold / postponed to vaccinate for the H1N1 (Mexican flu, swine flu - whatever it's called now). Parents still make the decision to vaccinate or not but it was highly recommended given the situation here. 

I went back and forth about whether to get my daughter vaccinated against it or not. We did in the end. She'll get her normal vaccination in the new year and it's been a bit delayed.

If she was allergic to anything or had some health issues, we would not have and would have really still gone into a lot of research with our doctor and stuff and that's the same with normal vaccinations.

Overall and in the end we just have to do what our own hearts and instincts tell us and trust that it's okay. 

Either way, as mothers and fathers, when something goes wrong - we always feel guilty and to blame - it's natural as we all want to protect our children. Hindsight is 20/20 and you just have to do what feels right for you and your family.


----------



## Foogirl

britneysbitch said:


> I guess nobody knows 100%, but that's my opinion. OH won't change his and I'm worried that in the event this boy comes out with autism (however it happens) I will feel like it's my fault if I got him immunised and OH blames that and he will resent me.

That's just the thing. The do know 100%. There is no cause and effect. If a child got knocked down by a bus and the next day started showing signs of autism, the parents would blame that, it is entirely natural. These are two events which have no connection whatsoever. But I would say no, it isn't something you have to agree on. After all, if you don't both agree, he will get his way, so it is hardly something you can compromise on is it?




marley2580 said:


> The UK govt told everyone that British Beef was safe for years before they admitted our cows all had mad cow disease!

Well, that's the shortest most misinformed tabloid-esque version of _that_ story I've ever heard.:dohh: Seriously, *ALL* cows have mad cow disease? I hope you don't honestly believe that.



marley2580 said:


> I'm curious, if you're getting all the vaccinations why are you worried about your kids mixing with unvaccinated children?

Because our children can still become ill with these diseases. Sure the risk of complications is much lower but even a vaccinated child will be miserable with measles etc. Plus, my next child may not be able to be vaccinated. Finally, if everyone was to vaccinate, these diseases could be irradicated and remove the need for_ any_ child to be vaccinated, just as happened with smallpox.


----------



## xXhayleyXx

toriaaaaTRASH said:


> I've only read the 10th page because I know it has kicked off. I did want to know both sides, I just didn't like the irresponsible comment. Jeez.
> 
> Some things will never change, I guess.



U more than any one with how long u have been a member on here should know how easily these kind of threads can easily turn into a bitchy debate, im surprised u seem so shocked lol


----------



## Serene123

It's not that, I just think there's a difference between having an opinion and insulting someone... Rome wasn't built in a day, but maybe if one person at a time we manage to be a little less touchy, the world (or just the internet) might be a better place :lol:


*hormonal pregnant woman who should be ignored for the next 8 months*


----------



## mommyof3co

Foogirl said:


> britneysbitch said:
> 
> 
> I guess nobody knows 100%, but that's my opinion. OH won't change his and I'm worried that in the event this boy comes out with autism (however it happens) I will feel like it's my fault if I got him immunised and OH blames that and he will resent me.
> 
> That's just the thing. The do know 100%. There is no cause and effect. If a child got knocked down by a bus and the next day started showing signs of autism, the parents would blame that, it is entirely natural. These are two events which have no connection whatsoever. But I would say no, it isn't something you have to agree on. After all, if you don't both agree, he will get his way, so it is hardly something you can compromise on is it?Click to expand...


I'm not sure where you got your facts but there is no 100% proof that there is no cause and effect there. The autism stuff actually played very little into our decision but even the CDC has released statements that at this time there is no link they are finding BUT they can NOT say for certain there isn't one there..it just hasn't been found but it also hasn't been shown to not be there for sure. 

I'm not saying she shouldn't get her son vaccinated, that's between her and her DH but what you said is false...there is no 100% on that yet.


----------



## marley2580

Foogirl said:


> marley2580 said:
> 
> 
> The UK govt told everyone that British Beef was safe for years before they admitted our cows all had mad cow disease!
> 
> Well, that's the shortest most misinformed tabloid-esque version of _that_ story I've ever heard.:dohh: Seriously, *ALL* cows have mad cow disease? I hope you don't honestly believe that.Click to expand...

Lol, I was of course exaggerating. But they did deny that it was problem for a long time.


----------



## Foogirl

mommyof3co said:


> I'm not sure where you got your facts but there is no 100% proof that there is no cause and effect there. The autism stuff actually played very little into our decision but even the CDC has released statements that at this time there is no link they are finding BUT they can NOT say for certain there isn't one there..it just hasn't been found but it also hasn't been shown to not be there for sure.
> 
> I'm not saying she shouldn't get her son vaccinated, that's between her and her DH but what you said is false...there is no 100% on that yet.

There was never a causal link in the first place. The "science" used that showed the apparent link in the first place was dubious at best. And was unethical at worst.

There have been several, properly conducted scientific reviews as well as a number of group studies done which prove no link, none whatsoever between MMR and autism. Not sure where your information comes from but from the CDC's own website


> Because signs of autism may appear around the same time children receive the MMR vaccine, some parents may worry that the vaccine causes autism. Vaccine safety experts,* including experts at CDC and the American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP), agree that MMR vaccine is not responsible for recent increases in the number of children with autism*. In 2004, a report by the Institute of Medicine (IOM) concluded that there is no link between autism and MMR vaccine, and that there is no link between autism and vaccines that contain thimerosal as a preservative.

And the study I alluded to earlier 


> &#8226;A November 2002 study by CDC and the Danish Medical Research Council that followed more than 500,000 children over 7 years and found no association between MMR vaccination and autism. The results were published in the New England Journal of Medicine

So, the CDC have not stated there _may_ be a link at all. At least, not that they have published widely since these studies were carried out.

There was also a recent study carried out here which proved that Autism rates have not increased since the MMR was introduced, and in fact the number of adults who have Autism at this time, is about the same as the number of children who are being diagnosed.

There is absolutely no proof, none at all, that this vaccine is responsible in any way for Autism. Any "link" is coincidental not causal. It is simply the case that signs of Autism begin round the time children are vaccinated with MMR. But, naturally, parents will always look for something to blame.


----------



## Serene123

Autism isn't the only reason people don't like the MMR.

I think they were better off seperate.


----------



## Foogirl

marley2580 said:


> Lol, I was of course exaggerating. But they did deny that it was problem for a long time.

They did deny there was any risk to humans. And to be fair to them, there aren't millions of us wandering around with CJD as the Daily Mail led us to believe there would be by now, so maybe they were a little bit right.

At least once they discovered the extent of the problem they put things in place to reduce the risk and stamp out the disease.

I do agree we shouldn't do things blindly because the goverment says we should, but I do think we should at least consider the information they are giving us is relevant.


----------



## Foogirl

toriaaaaTRASH said:


> Autism isn't the only reason people don't like the MMR.
> 
> I think they were better off seperate.

Except that because it took a number of visits to complete, a lot of children were at risk for a lot longer and some never completed the course.


----------



## Serene123

Okay, but for parents who did want to complete the full course the option was better than none.


----------



## mommyof3co

There was a statement released by the CDC a couple years back at most, I'll have to see if I can find it, but it said there has been no link found BUT they couldn't say for absolute certain there was no link just that nothing had been proven yet and so they are saying at this point there is no link because there isn't one proven. I'm not saying it does cause autism but to say 100% that it will not/cannot IMO isn't right. There are many parents that know their children and know how they were progressing and then to get the vaccine and suddenly change...I tend to believe these parents that KNOW their kids and know how they behave and then suddenly see a completely different child in front of them right after a vaccine. Autism also has risen significantly in recent years

https://www.fightingautism.org/idea/autism.php

But like I said the autism factor had very little to do with our decision I just don't think it's right to tell someone that 100% there is no chance their kid could get autism from the MMR...we just don't know for certain at this point, nothing has been shown but something is causing these rates to go up it just hasn't been found yet


----------



## Foogirl

mommyof3co said:


> There are many parents that know their children and know how they were progressing and then to get the vaccine and suddenly change...I tend to believe these parents that KNOW their kids and know how they behave and then suddenly see a completely different child in front of them right after a vaccine. Autism also has risen significantly in recent years
> 
> https://www.fightingautism.org/idea/autism.php
> 
> But like I said the autism factor had very little to do with our decision I just don't think it's right to tell someone that 100% there is no chance their kid could get autism from the MMR...we just don't know for certain at this point, nothing has been shown but something is causing these rates to go up it just hasn't been found yet

That's just it, the rates aren't going up.. There are as many adults with autism as there are kids. They just weren't necessarily diagnosed as children as less was known about the condition years ago.

And I say again, the reason there is an associated risk is to do with timing, nothing else. It is right to say 100 percent there is no risk of autism as other studies have shown it to be the case. One of the CDC studies was as long ago as 1999, it would appear since at least this time, their advice has been there is no link.

This was nothing more than an overblown media hoax. The problem is, once it is in the minds of the general public they would rather believe the tabloids than the scientists.


----------



## mommyof3co

I don't want to keep arguing the point as it makes no difference to me in my decision lol. But I found this, granted it was a statement released to the Oprah show but was an official statement from the CDC...this is only part of it

"The vast majority of science to date does not support an association between thimerosal in vaccines and autism. But we are currently conducting additional studies to further determine what role, if any, thimerosal in vaccines may play in the development of autism."

Obviously that's just addressing the thimerosal in the vaccines but there are still ongoing studies to find out IF there is any link....that means it has not been completely proven that there is no link...therefore it is NOT 100%. As of now there has been no link found, that doesn't mean there isn't something going on there that hasn't been found yet. There are many parents out there that KNOW in their hearts what changed their child, they are the ones that live there day in and day out with those kids and know how they were before and after the vaccine. If nothing at all was going on there I doubt money would have been awarded to some families in the court case about vaccines causing their child's autism. 

"CBS News has found that since 1988, the vaccine court has awarded money judgments, often in the millions of dollars, to thirteen hundred and twenty two families whose children suffered brain damage from vaccines. In many &#8230; cases, the government paid out awards following a judicial finding that vaccine injury lead to the child&#8217;s autism spectrum disorder."

Something has to be going on there or they wouldn't be giving these parents money for that exact reason. I'm not saying they are hiding something or anything like that but they even know that they can't say FOR SURE their vaccines didn't cause this in these kids


----------



## mommyof3co

Oops double post


----------



## Foogirl

mommyof3co said:


> "CBS News has found that since 1988, the vaccine court has awarded money judgments, often in the millions of dollars, to thirteen hundred and twenty two families whose children suffered brain damage from vaccines. In many &#8230; cases, the government paid out awards following a judicial finding that vaccine injury lead to the child&#8217;s autism spectrum disorder."
> 
> Something has to be going on there or they wouldn't be giving these parents money for that exact reason. I'm not saying they are hiding something or anything like that but they even know that they can't say FOR SURE their vaccines didn't cause this in these kids

The "vaccine court" is a civil no fault court where evidence must only be on a preponderance of doubt. It is not uncommon for large corporations not to spend a lot of time and money challenging such cases as it is more cost effective for them to pay out to make a case go away. However, On February 12, 2009, the court ruled in three test cases that the combination of the MMR vaccine and thiomersal-containing vaccines were not to blame for autism. Hastings concluded in his decision, "Unfortunately, the Cedillos (the family who brought the claim) have been misled by physicians who are guilty, in my view, of gross medical misjudgment"

I'm not sure what CBS are alluding to and I note they have no actual figures as the first test case about Autism and MMR was brought in 2007 and this is the ruling that was given above.

So, the Vaccine court, the CDC and mainstream science say there is no link whatsoever. Good enough for me.


----------



## mommyof3co

And that's where we differ, while your fine with them not having found a link yet therefore in your mind it's safe to me I look at it and until they can tell me my child will be safe for sure it's not good enough for me. If they took all these toxins out of vaccines, not just MMR but others too I would feel differently about giving them to the boys but until they make them safer they won't be having them.


----------



## Foogirl

mommyof3co said:


> And that's where we differ, while your fine with them not having found a link yet therefore in your mind it's safe to me I look at it and until they can tell me my child will be safe for sure it's not good enough for me. If they took all these toxins out of vaccines, not just MMR but others too I would feel differently about giving them to the boys but until they make them safer they won't be having them.

But isn't that a catch 22? You will never be happy with them saying there isn't a link because you are convinced there is one and the media hype and mistaken parent pressure groups tell you there is. The only thing that will satisfy you is a firmly proven link.

As for toxins, if they took all toxins out of vaccinations, there would be no vaccination. In fact, if they took toxins out of everything our children come into contact with from tap water to toys, I'm sure the world would be a much better place:dohh:


----------



## mommyof3co

I never said there was a link? I never said I believe there is? I also said the autism factor was a very small part of our decision. I said it's not right to say that 100% there is no link because that has NOT been proven, as of now nothing has been found but more studies are going on to fully rule it out and until everything is completed you can't say for 100% certainty that there is no link because we just don't know at this point. 

I'm not talking about every little thing but the large doses of certain things that are in vaccines. And it's different injecting it into a tiny body than ingesting or touching something. 

I'm not going to keep defending my position, I KNOW what I'm doing is RIGHT for my family, if someone else doesn't agree with that that's fine :) I don't put anyone down for the choices they make for their family and would expect the same respect from others. I get my FACTS from reputable sources and that is what helped make our decision. Like I said before I look at it from a different point of view than others, even when presented with the same facts as you or someone else I might look at it and weigh certain things differently because I think different than you. Doesn't make either of us more right than the other. All we can do is what we feel is best for our kids. I know if I gave my kids a vaccine and they had a bad reaction I would feel horrible and at the same time if they get a disease and die or have permanent side effects I will also feel bad so I have to weigh my options and do what's best for my kids....and I have :)


----------



## tasha41

I'm just stating my side, not wanting to argue with anybody.

We're vaccinating as per schedule, MMR, chicken pox, we had H1N1, the works. The only thing I'm holding back on is Gardasil.


----------



## moomin_troll

mommyof3co i was just wondering were u vancinated as a child or did ur parents feel the same as u?

not judging ur opinion at all im just wondering :)


----------



## mommyof3co

I was vaccinated :) I was kept up to date until I guess about 13 I haven't had any since...except we didn't do flu shots


----------



## marley2580

I know you weren't asking me, but we only received some of the available vaccines as children. My mum kind of thinks like me. I chose to get the MMR when I was a teenager as I'd never had measles etc and I felt there was less risk at that age.


----------



## Midnight_Fairy

Jabs are something I thought long and hard over. I didnt give them any 2nd thought when I had my son in 2004. My son was being tested for asd and when my daughter was due her mmr (13mths) I delayed it untill she was 2 and I am so glad I did. I feel alot better about it. I dont think the jab caused my sons autism as there seems to be some genetic link as such in my family. My daughter doesnt have autism. I felt the risks of measles was to high. There has been lots of rubella reported in our area and un vaccinated people were called up and offered the jab.

I have had the rubella jab 3 times now and I still show up immune. I dont know whats going on there!


----------



## moomin_troll

mommyof3co said:


> I was vaccinated :) I was kept up to date until I guess about 13 I haven't had any since...except we didn't do flu shots

i asked as my mum refused to let us have the vit k injections at birth so due to that i refused to let zane have it as cuz i lived without it fine i didnt think zane would need it.


----------



## mommyof3co

moomin_troll said:


> mommyof3co said:
> 
> 
> I was vaccinated :) I was kept up to date until I guess about 13 I haven't had any since...except we didn't do flu shots
> 
> i asked as my mum refused to let us have the vit k injections at birth so due to that i refused to let zane have it as cuz i lived without it fine i didnt think zane would need it.Click to expand...


Here those injections aren't given, I had never even heard of it until being here on BnB so that one wasn't an issue for us. But here they do give first dose of Hep b right after birth. But my mom's opinions really influenced mine with Landon, not that it's a bad thing, but with him I did follow alot of what she did, he was vaccinated for a few years and Casen started out being vaccinated too but then that's when I started looking into it, when he was about 2 and I was pregnant with Hayden. My mom did question why we were stopping them but after explaining to her she actually fully supports us. The only person who doesn't is my MIL but she also hasn't listened to our reasons.


----------



## moomin_troll

mommyof3co said:


> moomin_troll said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> mommyof3co said:
> 
> 
> I was vaccinated :) I was kept up to date until I guess about 13 I haven't had any since...except we didn't do flu shots
> 
> i asked as my mum refused to let us have the vit k injections at birth so due to that i refused to let zane have it as cuz i lived without it fine i didnt think zane would need it.Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Here those injections aren't given, I had never even heard of it until being here on BnB so that one wasn't an issue for us. But here they do give first dose of Hep b right after birth. But my mom's opinions really influenced mine with Landon, not that it's a bad thing, but with him I did follow alot of what she did, he was vaccinated for a few years and Casen started out being vaccinated too but then that's when I started looking into it, when he was about 2 and I was pregnant with Hayden. My mom did question why we were stopping them but after explaining to her she actually fully supports us. The only person who doesn't is my MIL but she also hasn't listened to our reasons.Click to expand...

mils never listen n im sure my mil would try and give her opinion if i had chosen not to give zane his injections like she tried to quiz me just after i gave birth regarding the vit k if i cud of got up id of slapped her lol

my sister is allergic to a ingredient used in all injections but my mum still gave her the jabs as the doctors just said her side effects were normal when now we no they werent but shes fine bless her


----------



## mommyof3co

moomin_troll said:


> mommyof3co said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> moomin_troll said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> mommyof3co said:
> 
> 
> I was vaccinated :) I was kept up to date until I guess about 13 I haven't had any since...except we didn't do flu shots
> 
> i asked as my mum refused to let us have the vit k injections at birth so due to that i refused to let zane have it as cuz i lived without it fine i didnt think zane would need it.Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Here those injections aren't given, I had never even heard of it until being here on BnB so that one wasn't an issue for us. But here they do give first dose of Hep b right after birth. But my mom's opinions really influenced mine with Landon, not that it's a bad thing, but with him I did follow alot of what she did, he was vaccinated for a few years and Casen started out being vaccinated too but then that's when I started looking into it, when he was about 2 and I was pregnant with Hayden. My mom did question why we were stopping them but after explaining to her she actually fully supports us. The only person who doesn't is my MIL but she also hasn't listened to our reasons.Click to expand...
> 
> mils never listen n im sure my mil would try and give her opinion if i had chosen not to give zane his injections like she tried to quiz me just after i gave birth regarding the vit k if i cud of got up id of slapped her lol
> 
> my sister is allergic to a ingredient used in all injections but my mum still gave her the jabs as the doctors just said her side effects were normal when now we no they werent but shes fine bless herClick to expand...

Yikes, that's kinda scary, glad she's fine though

My MIL actually brought us a Parents magazine that she STOLE from her doctor's office lol just because it had an article on the front that said "taking the fear out of vaccines" and says "maybe if you read that you'll see there is nothing to be scared of" wtf really? lol we don't do it because of being scared, as I've already said we have many reasons lol. I was really annoyed that she would do that, but my DH put her in her place about it and nothing's been said since but I know she doesn't agree


----------



## polo_princess

Brooke will be having her MMR on or as close to schedule as possible

I actually have someone in my family who was diagnosed with Autism shortly after his MMR when this whole "MMR/Autism" saga kicked off ... 

So for me there is a tiny doubt in my mind, but to me the doubt us so very minimal that its not enough of a reason for me to say no

I had all vaccinations as a child up until the age of 13, i havent had a BCG and another one that you are given in high school


----------



## Moraine

I will be delaying the MMR until after two. 

My nephew got his MMR at 1, when he was supposed to. It was like someone flicked a switch. He didn't laugh or smile much after that. He was grumpy, a totally different baby. He has since been diagnosed with autism. After drastically changing his diet and starting ABA therapy (he's now two and a half), he is getting a little better, starting to talk, less tantrums, happier, but no one could ever convince me that the vaccine had nothing to do with it. It was such a drastic change. We thought he was just grumpy from the shot. 

Maybe it wasn't the shot, but maybe it was. I think that it is too much on a little baby's underdeveloped immune system to have that many shots all at once. Which is why I will wait until Lucius is older to have it, when his immune system is more mature.


----------



## Midnight_Fairy

Moraine said:


> I will be delaying the MMR until after two.
> 
> My nephew got his MMR at 1, when he was supposed to. It was like someone flicked a switch. He didn't laugh or smile much after that. He was grumpy, a totally different baby. He has since been diagnosed with autism. After drastically changing his diet and starting ABA therapy (he's now two and a half), he is getting a little better, starting to talk, less tantrums, happier, but no one could ever convince me that the vaccine had nothing to do with it. It was such a drastic change. We thought he was just grumpy from the shot.
> 
> Maybe it wasn't the shot, but maybe it was. I think that it is too much on a little baby's underdeveloped immune system to have that many shots all at once. Which is why I will wait until Lucius is older to have it, when his immune system is more mature.


Sounds like what happened with my son. He was advanced with all his milestones, then 13mths he got the jab and bang. But they said autism becomes more noticeable at that age anyway so I am none the wiser. Delaying untill after 2 is a good idea. IMO.


----------



## Mervs Mum

My eldest has had everything so far right up to her HPV (cervical cancer) vax 2 weeks ago. Hebe will have everything too. If they offer us the swine flu I will decline for the moment as I'm confident we are at low risk. Vaccination programmes are only effective with a 90% + take up which is why the decline in MMR take up saw a spike in illness after.


----------



## KarenLV

My son is also 18 months old and he hasnt received MMR due to my decision to delay it until he is about 2 and half years old. Boys are more prone to autism according to statistics.Dont know if it is due to MMR but I'm not taking chances. Medical professionals have been wrong before and they are usually too proud to admit it,so I'd rather wait and put my own mind at ease.


----------



## SadMummy

I have been reading this thread with great interest and though I would add my story.

I had never really done any research on vaccines as a whole and as first time Mum wanted to give my Son the best chance of preventing him getting any nasty virus' or childhood diseases, so when my HV gave me the schedule of immunisations I was adamant that my Son would have them all. I was aware of the scandals which surrounded the MMR vaccine and autism but still made the choice to get him vaccinated for all of the reasons stated by you all.

When he was 14mths old we made our appointment to get the MMR. The nurse explained what was being given and said that the Live part of the vaccination (measles) would kick in at about 10 days after.

Exactly 10 days after my little boy developed a high fever and was generally unwell. We called our Doctor frantically and he said it was perfectly normal and to just give him some Calpol to reduce his temperature and to monitor him closely. When we suggested we bring him the surgery to be checked over they said it was not necessary as this was a common side effect. 

That evening, we put our son to bed and was pleased that the calpol had caused his temperature to drop every so slightly. An hour later I went to check on him and to our horror found him dead.

Our son had never been ill since being born and was healthy child. When we were at the hospital I told the staff that he had been given his MMR jab 10 days previously but this was totally disregarded.

We demanded that full autopsy be carried out only to find that the only thing that was in my sons system was the measles virus due to the MMR vaccine which was normal. They concluded that he died of SIDS (Sudden Infant Death Syndrome).

Since my Son's death I have done a huge amount of research only to find that there are cases of serious complications and yes sometimes death. Had I have known of all these serious complications would I have still gone ahead with my decision....I don't know maybe, maybe not. At the time I thought I was doing the right thing. How were we to know that he would die as a result of this vaccine.

What happened to us is very very rare but that is not to say that it does not happen because it does. The health authority did everything in it's power to stop us from believing that the vaccine had anything to do with his death and they still do but there are a few health proffesionals that believed us but would never put their name to it.

Most of my friends have allowed their children to be given this Vaccine and am pleased to say, without complication.

The way I see is that we are all made up differently. Some people develop allergic reactions to the most basic of things such as wheat and the same goes for vaccines.

A lot of people talk about herd immunity but in the real world it does not exist. The measles virus become virulent whenever nature intends it to and epidemics occur even when there is a 98% or 100% vaccination rate. During these epidemics, both vaccinated and unvaccinated people get measles.

There is lots of literature out there but the ones I have found most useful are:

"Raising a Vaccine Free Child" by Wendy Lydall &
"Vaccines, Are They Safe & Effective" by Neil Z. Miller

I urge people to read these books as they are full of useful information and statistics.

I still support everybody's decision either way but do not be fooled by the NHS or Government that this vaccine isn't without it's dangers.

Thanks for listening.....


----------



## AppleBlossom

I'm very sorry to hear that hun, must have been so terrible :( Luckily that is rare and I've not heard of any other cases where this has happened. Sometimes even reading through everything can't predict that something like that can happen though. Big :hugs: x


----------



## Tiff

I agree, very sad. :( :hugs: But those are the rare things, doesn't make it any less hurtful though. :hugs: There is a risk with any injections that you get, not just the MMR. 

I talked to a friend last night, she is a behavioural therapist for children with Autism. I was asking her what her thoughts were on the MMR vs Autism as its time for Claire to get the shot. She said that personally she doesn't see a link between the two. She's spoken with some of her colleagues who are university educated and have their doctorates in the field and they are of the same opinion. 

She said its the mercury in the vaccines that children react against, but there are tons of other factors as well... like how much fish you ate while pregnant, how much fish the child eats as well, etc etc... it isn't just the vaccine. She said that Autism has been around since the dawn of time, but prior to 30 years there wasn't a name for it, you were considered "crazy" and put into Asylums and had holes drilled into your brain to try and find out why you weren't acting "normal".

As part of her class she had to watch videos from "crazy" people locked away in Asylums and their behaviours were exactly of low-functioning autistics. Because Autism is something in the mind, people can't "see" it, therefore they don't understand it. With say, Downs Syndrome, you can SEE the "impairment" (for lack of a better word, I'm sorry... mean no disrespect) therefore there is no dispute that Downs Syndrome is around. People are always sketchy of mental disorders because they can't be seen or felt.

Granted, they are still trying to figure out stuff about Autism. Even within the past decade it has gone from being "Autism" to "Autism Spectrum Disorder". There is such a variety of degrees in which it affects people. She said that if there was any doubt, any inkling at ALL that there was a link they'd pull the MMR vaccine right away. Much like how they recalled the Swine Flu vaccine in the states because of potential low-effectiveness. 

It may sound horrible, but I'd rather Claire be alive, with the chance of getting autism, then dead from contracting mumps, measles or rubella. Its a risk we take every time we get them vaccinated, as you don't know how they will react, but to me it is the lesser of two evils. Doesn't mean that I'm not scared shitless though, that something bad will happen to her.


----------



## ryder

I completely agree Tiff!

That being said, there are certain vaccines which have a higher risk rate for complications. But the MMR is not one of them.


----------



## Foogirl

ryder said:


> I completely agree Tiff!
> 
> That being said, there are certain vaccines which have a higher risk rate for complications. But the MMR is not one of them.

I totally agree too.

And even the "riskier" jabs still have a very low rate of incidence. Your child is more at risk going out in the car than having a jab, or at more risk of being killed in the home.


----------



## SadMummy

It may sound horrible, but I'd rather Claire be alive, with the chance of getting autism, then dead from contracting mumps, measles or rubella. Its a risk we take every time we get them vaccinated, as you don't know how they will react, but to me it is the lesser of two evils. Doesn't mean that I'm not scared shitless though, that something bad will happen to her.[/QUOTE]

Did you know that there has only been 1 death from Measles in the UK since 1998 but the MMR has killed 30 babies. Out of all the cases of measeles in the UK since 1998, Approx 60% had been vaccinated. After what I have suffered I would rather risk my child getting the virus (which when treated properly is not a risk) and having a life long immunity than getting this dangerous vaccine. 

Just my opinion.

xx


----------



## Tiff

SadMummy said:


> It may sound horrible, but I'd rather Claire be alive, with the chance of getting autism, then dead from contracting mumps, measles or rubella. Its a risk we take every time we get them vaccinated, as you don't know how they will react, but to me it is the lesser of two evils. Doesn't mean that I'm not scared shitless though, that something bad will happen to her.
> 
> Did you know that there has only been 1 death from Measles in the UK since 1998 but the MMR has killed 30 babies. Out of all the cases of measeles in the UK since 1998, Approx 60% had been vaccinated. After what I have suffered I would rather risk my child getting the virus (which when treated properly is not a risk) and having a life long immunity than getting this dangerous vaccine.
> 
> Just my opinion.
> 
> xx

We all do what we find best for our children. Sorry again about your loss. :( :hugs:


----------



## moomin_troll

i was in tears over ur thread the other day sadmummy ur son is so beautiful, i didnt even look into the risks of zanes jabs he just got what i had growing up. i never thought anything like this could come from such a widely used injection.

i think if i have another baby i will think twice about all jabs


----------



## Foogirl

SadMummy said:


> Did you know that there has only been 1 death from Measles in the UK since 1998 but the MMR has killed 30 babies. Out of all the cases of measeles in the UK since 1998, Approx 60% had been vaccinated. After what I have suffered I would rather risk my child getting the virus (which when treated properly is not a risk) and having a life long immunity than getting this dangerous vaccine.
> 
> Just my opinion.
> 
> xx

I think it is worth providing some balance to this post.

The death from measles was the first since 1992. In 2009 it was reported in the times that there had actually been 2 deaths from the disease. This was a massive decrease from the 16 deaths in 1988. In 1999 in the netherlands there was an outbreak of measles in a community opposed to vaccinations. 2300 cases and 3 deaths. In 2000 in Ireland an epidemic of 1200 cases had 3 deaths and there were also 3 deaths in Italy. The accepted figures are for every 1000 cases there would be 0.1 deaths, 10 hospital admissions, 10 neurological complications and 40 respiratory complications.

In 2008 there were 1348 confirmed cases of measles. In 1998, prior to the scare there were only 56. The fact that 60% (your figure) were vaccinated simply means those cases were less likely to result in complications. You can get measles if you have been vaccinated, but it is far less severe. Unfortunately because of this, it is widely believed to be a mild disease but the truth is, it can be devastating.

Your figures on the number of deaths cannot be corroborated. There was a well reported case of a young boy who died after having the vaccine, but it should be noted that he was ill when it was given - and it never should have been. All advice states that if a child is ill the vaccine should be delayed.

There have been some cases where the vaccine was thought by parents to be linked, and some (in the US) where the "vaccine court" have paid out, but there have been, as far as I can ascertain, no cases which have a proven causal link. 

The BMJ carried an interesting quote.


> Any suggestion that in 2008, the risk of any child dying of acute measles is 1 in 2,000 is another fictional statistical manipulation, in the same vein as: in order for the risk/benefit equation to be tipped in favour of leaving children unvaccinated against MMR, there would need to have been more than 7500 deaths from MMR in the last 10 years.

Of course, any denial by the health authorties or the pharmaceutical companies is instantly labled as a cover up. I suspect the truth is somewhere in between. It is possible there have been some deaths for which the vaccination is attributable. Unfortunately sometimes these things do happen. Children (and adults) can have an unforseen, one in a million reaction to all sorts of things. This doesn't, in itself, mean those things should be labled "dangerous". I don't believe it is helpful to do that. After all, a packet of peanuts can be dangerous to some people, should we stop selling them? No, what we do is educate people for the signs and symptoms to look out for and what to do when they see them.

Of course it is an emotive subject, especially for those who have reason to believe MMR is responsible for a death, but scaring people out of vaccinating with figures which are not proven helps no-one. People need to understand the facts for both sides in order to make up their minds.


----------



## SadMummy

It's not about scaring people, it's about making people aware. I am in contact with 100's of families who claim this vaccine has damaged or killed their children. I am sorry if you find that scary but it is the truth.

The reason that the exact number of deaths cannot be confirmed is because noone is willing to even entertain the idea that the vaccine was involved. The Pharmaceutical industry and our Government are so corrupt and will do everything in their power to stop any bad news coming out about the vaccine. There is far too much money involved.

Dr Andrew Wakefield's case is due to finish today/tomorrow and I have been asked to appear on Sky News and Five News. Once again, it's not about scaring people, it's about educating people. I hope you take the time to watch it.

Sadmummy
x


----------



## Tiff

What are you going to be talking about? I'm in Canada so I don't get Sky News. :hugs:

I was under the opinion that the case is about gross medical misconduct, not whether or not the MMR vaccine is safe or causes Autism?

:flower:


----------



## Foogirl

SadMummy said:


> It's not about scaring people, it's about making people aware. I am in contact with 100's of families who claim this vaccine has damaged or killed their children. I am sorry if you find that scary but it is the truth.
> 
> The reason that the exact number of deaths cannot be confirmed is because noone is willing to even entertain the idea that the vaccine was involved. The Pharmaceutical industry and our Government are so corrupt and will do everything in their power to stop any bad news coming out about the vaccine. There is far too much money involved.
> 
> Dr Andrew Wakefield's case is due to finish today/tomorrow and I have been asked to appear on Sky News and Five News. Once again, it's not about scaring people, it's about educating people. I hope you take the time to watch it.
> 
> Sadmummy
> x

I have absolutely no intention of watching. I have no further interest in the Wakefield case. His ridiculous "study" of 12 self selected individuals where he carried out some very questionable (and extremely dangerous) procedures on children sparked a media hyped scare which has decimated the UK's vaccination rates for no reason. His "findings" have been found to be entirely false by a number of properly conducted scientific studies around the globe. But people will still rather believe a rogue doctor and the Daily Mail than the World Health Organisation, the CDC, the NHS and countless other organisations. As if the Daily Mail has no alternative agenda.

You said it yourself. "Families who claim" the vaccine is some kind of poison. Of course, it is human nature to find someone to blame. But this does not mean they are right. And to say that no-one will entertain the idea is just not right and smacks of conspiracy. It does governments and pharmaceutical companies absolutely no good to continue to sell and administer any drug which is potentially lethal in the numbers you claim. A lesson they learned after thalidomide. The vaccinces are constantly monitored and redeveloped and tested to ensure the risks are minimal. Elements which used to be included have been removed after it was proven there were problems. Alternatives are offered where allergies are a potential issue. Guidelines are laid down to try to ensure children are healthy before they receive the vaccine - another known risk.

Millions of people around the world have received this vaccine and if, as you claim, in the UK alone "100's" of children have been badly affected then that would be replicated to the extent that it would be impossible for any organisation to ignore. You might also want to give a reason why there is only any real furore about this in the UK and it has barely even noted a mention elsewhere around the world. If there were such a large number affected, surely there would be a worldwide outcry?

The problem is, no amount of evidence that this vaccine is as safe as it possibly can be will satisfy those who swallowed the whole story peddled a decade ago. Any proof will be deemed as a cover up.

Education can only take place with hard facts, not with unproven anecdotes and hints at a conspiracy. Of course it is vital that people must be made aware of the risks and they, individually, must make up their own minds. But the information should be accurate and verified.


----------



## ryder

lol I actually think it is really funny how people think that the medical world is actually trying to hide things like autism and the MMR vaccines. Im sorry but I think that is ridiculous and just plain extreme paranoia. 

There are certain facts about MMR causing autism and one of the FACTS is that there is NO LINK!


----------



## moomin_troll

well ile be watching, ive not heard about this man and his studies but it wont do any harm in watching and gettin different sides to the story


----------



## ryder

I've read some of what when on in this study and I think he has just conducted child abuse, not a mature study. I cant/wont support someone who thinks that is ok. Its not a study, its subjecting poor disabled children to act as his lab rats.


----------



## moomin_troll

ryder said:


> I've read some of what when on in this study and I think he has just conducted child abuse, not a mature study. I cant/wont support someone who thinks that is ok. Its not a study, its subjecting poor disabled children to act as his lab rats.

:O thats shocking!

but in my opinion that says more about the parents who gave their children for this "study" then the person doing it.

im going to have to look this man up ive never heard of him before today


----------



## Serene123

Caitlyn still hasn't had it. It just doesn't feel right to me. I keep trying to get myself to let her have it :lol:


----------



## moomin_troll

toriaaaaTRASH said:


> Caitlyn still hasn't had it. It just doesn't feel right to me. I keep trying to get myself to let her have it :lol:

if it just doesnt feel right to u then maybe she just shouldnt have it and then u can stop worrying about it.

im now like this over the swine flu jab hahaha


----------



## ryder

I completely agree, mooming_troll! I definately do not think any parent in their right mind would allow someone to conduct studies on their child like that... Spinal taps and colon biopsies are quite serious and unecessary. Especially just for the sake of a small independant study. They opne upi the child to infection for one thing and I dont think anyone should be subjected to medical procedures unless it is lifesaving etc.


----------



## Serene123

He convinced them he could prove it and save other children from going through what their children have. I wouldn't blame the parents, there were probably devistated and had a lot of questions.


----------



## moomin_troll

its terrible!

my brother has many mental health problems one being autisum and my mum wudnt let anyone do any unneeded tests on my brother, she told them her son wasnt and would never be a lab rat. she didnt no why these things had happened to him but instead of tests after tests she just looked after him best she could. hes 28 now and the doctors are still a waste of space.

edit: this may sound very selfish but if zane had major problems and someone came to me sayin i can prove this and that and save more children but i will be doing this and that to ur son id tell them to go swivel


----------



## SadMummy

ryder said:


> lol I actually think it is really funny how people think that the medical world is actually trying to hide things like autism and the MMR vaccines. Im sorry but I think that is ridiculous and just plain extreme paranoia.
> 
> There are certain facts about MMR causing autism and one of the FACTS is that there is NO LINK!

So you think it's funny do you that my Son died 10 days after his MMR. You make me sick. I only pray your children do not suffer one day from a decision you made to get them vaccinated.


----------



## moomin_troll

SadMummy said:


> ryder said:
> 
> 
> lol I actually think it is really funny how people think that the medical world is actually trying to hide things like autism and the MMR vaccines. Im sorry but I think that is ridiculous and just plain extreme paranoia.
> 
> There are certain facts about MMR causing autism and one of the FACTS is that there is NO LINK!
> 
> So you think it's funny do you that my Son died 10 days after his MMR. You make me sick. I only pray your children do not suffer one day from a decision you made to get them vaccinated.Click to expand...

i dont think anyone is laughing about ur loss, its a awful thing to go thru and i cant even imagine how id even try and cope.


----------



## ryder

Definately was not laughing at your loss. What your son went through was competely unfortunate, but also extremely rare. I am speaking about the unecessary hype with the MMR and Autism. 

Your child has a higher chance of dying in a car crash then dying for an immunization IMO. Im not going to live in fear of driving in my car though.


----------



## KrisKitten

Iv tried to read this thread properly, apologies if iv missed things coz its very long!
I find this debate very interesting, my mum is very much of the 'if the doctors say so, then they know best' attitude, whereas my OHs mum (whom i have a lot of respect for) is a great believer in homeopathy and is very anti-jabs. This is very recent for her, with my OH he was given all of his jabs, with her second child who is now 2 yrs old she has had none as far as i know. 
Im not entirely sure where i stand or what i will do with tommy, im inclined towards the waiting till he is older view point. While i havent got a defined view point yet theres a few things i mull over. Like as far as i know the biggest problem with getting measels in the majority of cases is the risk of pnumonia going unchecked etc, where as far as i no (please dont jump down my thorat if im wrong) it simply requires A LOT of attention, kinda not taking ur eye off for a second lol, care to prevent death. Obviously there are instances where this isnt true, and that level of attention is easier said than done but i dont think its something like Menangitis where u must be rished to hospital immediatly for fear of death. 
Also when people say oh its probably the timing, autism becomes recognised at around the same age as kids have the MMR i think while theres some stock in that i place a lot of value in how well a mother or father knows there child. If someone says he changed as a result of the MMR im inclined to believe them....
ill be following this thread closely esp as its a decision im gonna have to make in the not too distant future! :)

id also like to add Sadmummy your story is heartbreaking and i am so so sorry for your loss xxx


----------



## KrisKitten

ALso vaccines dont always neccesarily work, OH had all his jabs when he was little and still had terrible whooping cough in secondary school xxx


----------



## moomin_troll

juts been told my little sister is 15 and has recieved a letter asking her to go along for a top up of her mmr jab.

my mum hasnt even batted a eyelid n yet she wouldnt let her have the cervical cancer jab! 

the decisions we have to make as parents never end lol


----------



## Serene123

Don't even get me started on the cervical cancer jab :blush:

Caitlyn will probably have the MMR this summer, she is becoming a lot more interactive with other children and I have found myself on more than one occasion thinking she had measles. At that precise moment in time I felt so guilty for not getting her vaccinated.


----------



## ryder

Honestly I wouldn't get the gardisal jab either. It is too new and they are finding more women to be having fertility issues which they are finding to have a link. In this case I think girls/women need to be made aware of safe sex, thats the most sensible answer to me!

The MMR jab however has been around for years.


----------



## shanka

My LO is having his MMR a week wednesday it think every mother is different and do what they think is best for their child


----------



## tasha41

KrisKitten said:


> ALso vaccines dont always neccesarily work, OH had all his jabs when he was little and still had terrible whooping cough in secondary school xxx

No, vaccines do not always totally prevent illness, but when you ARE vaccinated and get sick, the cases of it are almost always mild. 

I have had all of my scheduled vaccinations and I've still had the mumps and whooping cough as well. Both are completely miserable even in a mild case. I had them at 5 and 10 and I'm 20 now and can still remember both, which I would say is significant :shrug:


----------



## kiwimama

SadMummy said:


> It's not about scaring people, it's about making people aware. I am in contact with 100's of families who claim this vaccine has damaged or killed their children. I am sorry if you find that scary but it is the truth.
> 
> The reason that the exact number of deaths cannot be confirmed is because noone is willing to even entertain the idea that the vaccine was involved. The Pharmaceutical industry and our *Government are so corrupt and will do everything in their power to stop any bad news coming out about the vaccine. There is far too much money involved.*
> 
> Dr Andrew Wakefield's case is due to finish today/tomorrow and I have been asked to appear on Sky News and Five News. Once again, it's not about scaring people, it's about educating people. I hope you take the time to watch it.
> 
> Sadmummy
> x

I can't speak for what happens in the UK, but for NZ, our goverment actually pays for our kids to have vaccines. I agree, pharmaceutical companies are money hungry, but our government isn't. Surely if vaccines were causing even a small number of the children receiving them to become autistic or have a serious reaction then they would put a stop to it straight away. Otherwise these children end up in hospital for months and months and if the autism is serious enough, may be in care for the rest of their lives, which our government would have to pay for.


----------



## ryder

tasha41 said:


> KrisKitten said:
> 
> 
> ALso vaccines dont always neccesarily work, OH had all his jabs when he was little and still had terrible whooping cough in secondary school xxx
> 
> No, vaccines do not always totally prevent illness, but when you ARE vaccinated and get sick, the cases of it are almost always mild.
> 
> I have had all of my scheduled vaccinations and I've still had the mumps and whooping cough as well. Both are completely miserable even in a mild case. I had them at 5 and 10 and I'm 20 now and can still remember both, which I would say is significant :shrug:Click to expand...

Thats true, however if vaccinated, the risk of greater complications is much less and children often are able to get over things easier if vaccinated.


----------



## Foogirl

kiwimama said:


> I can't speak for what happens in the UK, but for NZ, our goverment actually pays for our kids to have vaccines. I agree, pharmaceutical companies are money hungry, but our government isn't. Surely if vaccines were causing even a small number of the children receiving them to become autistic or have a serious reaction then they would put a stop to it straight away. Otherwise these children end up in hospital for months and months and if the autism is serious enough, may be in care for the rest of their lives, which our government would have to pay for.

In the UK, all vaccines are available on the NHS (our government paid for healthcare system) I think the money comment was alluding to the amount that pharmaceutical companies are paid for the vaccines, and the potential damages claims which might arise if a link were to be proven.

You can pay privately for single shot vaccines for the MMr, but these are not regulated or licenced in the UK and there is no reason to suspect they would be any "safer" than the MMR. Wakefield never looked into whether they were a better option in his research. But, a tabloid newspaper said they were, cue hundreds of middle class parents traipsing to unlicensed centres to have their children vaccinated with an untested vaccine.


----------



## KrisKitten

ryder said:


> tasha41 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> KrisKitten said:
> 
> 
> ALso vaccines dont always neccesarily work, OH had all his jabs when he was little and still had terrible whooping cough in secondary school xxx
> 
> No, vaccines do not always totally prevent illness, but when you ARE vaccinated and get sick, the cases of it are almost always mild.
> 
> I have had all of my scheduled vaccinations and I've still had the mumps and whooping cough as well. Both are completely miserable even in a mild case. I had them at 5 and 10 and I'm 20 now and can still remember both, which I would say is significant :shrug:Click to expand...
> 
> Thats true, however if vaccinated, the risk of greater complications is much less and children often are able to get over things easier if vaccinated.Click to expand...

OH had it for around 6 months...hospitalized for a couple of those i believe coz he couldnt breathe properly :shrug: it meant he ballsed up his GCSEs coz he was off school for so long :(
I dnno...i do realsied the chances of it are much less with vaccinations.
The way i see it is if u just look at mortality figures, since the introduction of vaccines they have dropped dramatically. So they gotta be doing something right.
I dnno, i was always v pro vaccines...but now i actually have my own child the idea that i could take him to the doc for something that will then harm him terrifys me....then agen if i didnt and he got sick from something he could of pbeen vaccinated against...:shrug::shrug:
u just cant win :nope: xxxx


----------



## sophxx

the man who wrote the report about the mmr and autisum has been struck off as a doctor and the wrote has been squashed because they found it not ture! ill go look for the link now!

i think its a hard choice but children who dont have the mmr if they do catch it can get seriously ill and can be alot worse affect than children who have had the jab! our lo wil be having it! x


----------



## Tiff

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/...ield-dishonest-irresponsible-and-callous.html

There you go! :hugs:


----------



## Sarahkka

Wow.
After reading that article, my strongest impression was of Dr. Wakefield's profound arrogance. He more than deserves being struck from the medical registry for the unethical methodology he used on the children in question. That is not the way to conduct research.
I have a scientific background academically, but also a strong training in political science. I have absolutely no issue with the full vaccination schedule routinely given in Alberta. I am in full support of regular testing and scrutiny to ensure that we are giving vaccinations in the most effective way possible, but I would never consider letting my child go unvaccinated. My assessment of the risks of vaccination is that they are statistically miniscule compared to those of not vaccinating.
My political science side also warrants a strong critical faculty when reading a lot of the argument presented by the anti-vaccination groups. I do not see consistent scientific findings to support not vaccinating and I do see a lot of very emotional and anecdotal "evidence". Which has been sensationalized very irresponsibly by the media.
When it comes to the health of my family, I prefer to go the scientific route.


----------



## Sarahkka

SadMummy said:


> ryder said:
> 
> 
> lol I actually think it is really funny how people think that the medical world is actually trying to hide things like autism and the MMR vaccines. Im sorry but I think that is ridiculous and just plain extreme paranoia.
> 
> There are certain facts about MMR causing autism and one of the FACTS is that there is NO LINK!
> 
> So you think it's funny do you that my Son died 10 days after his MMR. You make me sick. I only pray your children do not suffer one day from a decision you made to get them vaccinated.Click to expand...

I'm sorry, but I have to comment. That attack on ryder was really offside. That wasn't what she was saying at all.
I am sorry for the very unfortunate way in which your son died and I cannot imagine your pain, but that does not give you the right to lash out at people in such a manner.
I found YOUR post very offensive.


----------



## KrisKitten

I dont think there is any need to bring that post up tbh...shes obviously suffered a tragic loss and it understandably quite touchy on the issue, ryder responded and apologised if it came across badly and its been left at that....
i dont think u can comment on the motivation behind her post and 'lashing out' until uv been through what she has....
there was no need to comment at all.


----------



## xXhayleyXx

KrisKitten said:


> I dont think there is any need to bring that post up tbh...shes obviously suffered a tragic loss and it understandably quite touchy on the issue, ryder responded and apologised if it came across badly and its been left at that....
> i dont think u can comment on the motivation behind her post and 'lashing out' until uv been through what she has....
> there was no need to comment at all.

i totally agree :thumbup:


----------



## Foogirl

Sarahkka said:


> I see a lot of very emotional and anecdotal "evidence". Which has been sensationalized very irresponsibly by the media.
> When it comes to the health of my family, I prefer to go the scientific route.

This is unfortunately how it became such a massive story. It wasn't a story about scientific research, it was a personal interest story with lots of parents with tales of their children developing autism after being vaccinated. There was no balance given because to provide it will instantly put you in the firing line as being insensiive or uncaring.

By focussing heavily on the anecdotes, the Daily Mail was able to whip up the hysteria (purely to sell more papers) to a level where any voice against Wakefield was either lost in the noise or was slapped down as being insensitive.

Sadly, even though he has been proven to have been little more than a fraud (and a dangerous one at that) he still has support. Partly because he offers hope and partly because people just don't understand what he did - and why it was wrong. I read that blimmin Amanda Plattell in the paper today saying something along the lines of "all he was trying to do was to find out if there was a link and the establishment hounding him out are viscious" I would hope she is simply ignorant to his methods, because otherwise she thinks it is acceptable to carry out the procedures he did on those 12 children (and take blood samples from children at his own child's birthday party so he could have a "control" group)


----------



## Serene123

:shrug: This is starting to become all I can think about. We were at soft play today and every child that came into contact with her was a potential measles carrier :dohh:

Definately getting her done next week.


----------



## moomin_troll

toriaaaaTRASH said:


> :shrug: This is starting to become all I can think about. We were at soft play today and every child that came into contact with her was a potential measles carrier :dohh:
> 
> Definately getting her done next week.

aww bless you.

if ur this worried then god luck with her jabs although if shes anything like zane give her a chocolate button and she will be fine x


----------



## AppleBlossom

toriaaaaTRASH said:


> :shrug: This is starting to become all I can think about. We were at soft play today and every child that came into contact with her was a potential measles carrier :dohh:
> 
> Definately getting her done next week.

:thumbup:


----------



## ryder

toriaaaaTRASH said:


> :shrug: This is starting to become all I can think about. We were at soft play today and every child that came into contact with her was a potential measles carrier :dohh:
> 
> Definately getting her done next week.

Good luck... that is the point i've tried to make all along. With so many people not vaccinating and going out into public like playgroups etc, people will never know what they are subjecting their children to. 

What would happen if someone who had their toddler vaccinated, also had a baby not old enough for vaccines yet? And they went out to a playgroup and the baby contracted a potentially fatal illness because someone elses parents chose not to vaccinate. 

I am actually happy that I live in a place that requires vaccines for school.


----------



## moomin_troll

ryder said:


> toriaaaaTRASH said:
> 
> 
> :shrug: This is starting to become all I can think about. We were at soft play today and every child that came into contact with her was a potential measles carrier :dohh:
> 
> Definately getting her done next week.
> 
> Good luck... that is the point i've tried to make all along. With so many people not vaccinating and going out into public like playgroups etc, people will never know what they are subjecting their children to.
> 
> *What would happen if someone who had their toddler vaccinated, also had a baby not old enough for vaccines yet? And they went out to a playgroup and the baby contracted a potentially fatal illness because someone elses parents chose not to vaccinate. *
> I am actually happy that I live in a place that requires vaccines for school.Click to expand...

no need to make people feel bad by sayin that


----------



## mommyof3co

Thanks moomin_troll

While it would be horrible for that to happen vaccinated kids can pose the same risk, it's not like only unvaccinated kids get these diseases. And some vaccines shed so they can be a risk to babies not old enough for vaccines too. But as I've said before, as selfish as it may be my kids come first and I won't put them in harms way to possibly protect another child. Of course I'm not going to put some kid in danger but I don't feel I'm doing that at all

Toria I think if you are that worried I would def choose to get the vaccine done, there is no point in worrying everytime you are out somewhere around people. If you aren't completely confident in your choice not to give it or to delay it you shouldn't do it because obviously you feel that she would be safer with it kwim? I don't feel that way at all, I never worry when we are out places because I'm positive my decision is the best for them, they are healthy kids and capable of fighting something off IF they happened to get it, so I worry no more about measles than I do a cold.


----------



## hootie

I havent read through all the pages. My personal opinion is that it is ridiculous that people have chosen not to get vaccinated. Its like a new cool thing to do I swear. Its not baby wearing, or home birthing, it is something that has greatly benefited the entire world. These diseases were once basically eliminated. No they are coming back. Jenny McCarthy and her claims make me sick. Why if you can prevent your child from having serious illness would you even risk it??? Did you have the vaccine? Are you alive? Google the children that have recently contracted these preventable diseases. They are not new vaccines like H1N1, they have been around for years!!!! Anyway I will get off my soapbox now, as an Aunt of a nephew who is mildly autistic, I can say that there is no doubt in any of our minds that any of his vaccines have caused this.


----------



## Tiff

I don't know that it's trying to make anyone feel bad, but its a fact of life if you choose to not vaccinate your children. :shrug: Tbh, if my baby caught a potentially fatal illness because someone else chose not to vaccinate hell YES I'd be pissed off. 

When your actions don't affect other people then live and let live. I'm not saying everyone SHOULD, but don't expect everyone to be happy about your decision. It isn't like formula feeding/breast feeding, cloth diapers/disposables, etc etc... those choices don't affect anyone else. Delaying a vaccination does have the potential to harm others... so people tend to make it their business.


----------



## ryder

Ditto to what Tiff said. If your choices dont affect others, then go for it. But when your putting BABIES at risk, then yes, I have a problem with it and I dont really care if what I say makes people feel guilty. 

Whats that that everyone likes to say here? If you believe in your choice then you shouldnt feel guilty.


----------



## Laura2919

SadMummy said:


> ryder said:
> 
> 
> lol I actually think it is really funny how people think that the medical world is actually trying to hide things like autism and the MMR vaccines. Im sorry but I think that is ridiculous and just plain extreme paranoia.
> 
> There are certain facts about MMR causing autism and one of the FACTS is that there is NO LINK!
> 
> So you think it's funny do you that my Son died 10 days after his MMR. You make me sick. I only pray your children do not suffer one day from a decision you made to get them vaccinated.Click to expand...

I am really sorry for your loss but was there anything that proved it was the MMR or is it just that you believe it is what killed your son??


----------



## hootie

#


----------



## mommyof3co

Oh trust me I don't feel guilty at all, nothing anyone says putting down my choice makes me rethink it. I KNOW what I'm doing is RIGHT...for my kids. I'm just pointing out that it's not just unvaccinated kids that get the diseases, in fact when there are these "outbreaks" the majority are usually vaccinated kids. And also some vaccines shed that can give it to these babies that aren't. So you shouldn't be worried about just unvaccinated kids. I take the proper precautions with my kids, if they are sick they aren't out. No you can't prevent all spreading but I do what I can to prevent anything, which in our situation has been nothing more than colds or mild viruses. 

I def don't think it's the "new cool thing to do"...I don't read Jenny Mccarthy's books...besides Baby Laughs, that was cute :) 

And I don't care what anyone thinks about what we are doing, I do think I deserve the respect my choice, you don't have to agree but you don't need to attack (not that anyone has in this thread), I certainly don't expect everyone to agree. But like I said I'm not putting my child's health and life in danger to "possibly" offer some protection to other babies and children. With what I know and feel it would be irresponsible of me to allow my kids to have the vaccines and going against everything I feel I do for my children which first and foremost is protect them.


----------



## tasha41

TBH I don't care if people choose not to vaccinate their children, and if Elyse got ill I don't think I would blame the parents or children who are not vaccinated.. there are a million things you can pick up, sometimes it just happens... I don't see the sense in pointing fingers. Elyse IS vaccinated so I know she will be at a lower risk of picking up the things she is vaccinated against, and if she does, I am confident that there is a very strong likelihood that she will only have mild sickness. Do I believe that if your child is unvaccinated and gets ill it will be more serious? Yes, absolutely. And I do believe that they are at a higher risk of picking something up... however the risk is their parents' to take and I am sure that the parents who choose not to vaccinate do take other precautions. 

We are all just parents trying to make complicated decisions. No one has all the answers, no matter how much research you do. Unless you put your kid in a bubble, they're at risk everytime you take them to the grocery store or Wal Mart or to the park or on vacation etc. And I don't see many bubble boys and girls around... lol


----------



## KrisKitten

What i dont understand about people getting angry that others dont vaccinate is if YOU vaccinate then it shouldnt effect u.
I mean u say if ur kid caught somethin off a kid who wasnt vacinated ud be angry...but surely that would only happen if ur kid wasntvaccinated either?
Right?
Tell me if im totaly reading this wrong. 

dont think a parent should get the vaccine if they feel it could be dangerous to their kids...hell if i ever come to a decision if that deciison is i think it might be hamrful then no way am i getting it done.
I mean people have already sed they wouldnt feel bad for not allowing their kids to be put at risk so that research could be done to protect other kids...so its the same prinicple of whether ud feel right possibly risking ur kid for the sake of another?
DOes that make ne sense? lol xxxxxx


----------



## ryder

KrisKitten said:



> What i dont understand about people getting angry that others dont vaccinate is if YOU vaccinate then it shouldnt effect u.
> I mean u say if ur kid caught somethin off a kid who wasnt vacinated ud be angry...but surely that would only happen if ur kid wasntvaccinated either?
> Right?
> Tell me if im totaly reading this wrong.
> 
> dont think a parent should get the vaccine if they feel it could be dangerous to their kids...hell if i ever come to a decision if that deciison is i think it might be hamrful then no way am i getting it done.
> I mean people have already sed they wouldnt feel bad for not allowing their kids to be put at risk so that research could be done to protect other kids...so its the same prinicple of whether ud feel right possibly risking ur kid for the sake of another?
> DOes that make ne sense? lol xxxxxx

Yes you read that wrong. 

As you may know, children cannot get the MMR vaccine until at least 12 months of age. Which puts babies YOUNGER THEN 12 MONTHS at risk. Which is my concern with non-vaccinated children. Most illnesses are contagious before any symptoms are present, or you may think the symptom is something else. 

Like someone else said, the measle, mumps and rubella diseases were almost eliminated until the late 90's when all the whoo haa about the MMR and the autism thing scared up people. 

During the time when it was popular to not vaccinate, there was a high increase of children who got any of those diseases and they were fatal cases and cases with the children left with disabilities etc. Those illnesses are serious and real diseases. I dont think you can compare it to the chicken pox or your every day cold and flus.

Since then people have began to vaccinate more etc and the death/disability rate for those diseases has decreased again.


----------



## KrisKitten

Ah i see, thanks for clearing that up i have wondered about that argument before when i saw it debated on question time aggeesss ago
Just totally taking it form the wrong angle :dohh:

I still wouldnt hold it against someone else personally as i said, i know that i would never do anything that i thought could put my baby in danger and even if they turned out to be wrong i couldnt think they were bad for doing so as it wouldnt be totally ludicrous to think i would do the same...

god iv totaly lost my ability of speech today :haha: sorry if that made no sense xxx


----------



## mommyof3co

I think people don't realize that parents choosing not to vaccinate has been happening long before the MMR/autism scare. I have MANY friends, I'm on a forum of over 36000 which a large % do not vaccinate or are very selective. Many have kids that are my age (23) and then teens that they also didn't vaccinate them. I think it's just becoming more known that many choose not to vaccinate....because it's been happening since before all of the autism stuff came to light. Also many of these diseases naturally die off for a few years then resurface, nothing to do with the vaccine rates. It's just the cycle of the disease. If you look at charts showing the disease rates before the introduction of vaccines the rates were on the decline long before the vaccines due to nutrition, sanitation and medical advances that helped treat and prevent the diseases from spreading to so many. It can not be all credited to vaccines...not to say they have had no impact at all but the majority of it has been the other things I've mentioned. 

There are risks you take either way you decide, you just have to educate yourself and figure out what you feel best about. I'm confident that if the boys got these diseases they would be able to fight them off without any long term side effects...besides lifetime immunity from most :) You also have to look at the adult population, most aren't up to date on their boosters...


----------



## Laura2919

Sorry but I gotta write this because its driving me mad. 

I think all parents who choose to not get their children vaccinated are mental! Because of one poxy study saying it causes autism??

When I was pregnant they said I shouldnt drink at all. My SIL is pregnant and they said a glass of red wine is good for you! PLEASE! and you insist on believing all that sh*t that is around these days! 

My daughters have had all the vaccinations to date and wont be giving anyone measles, mumps or rubella either because they will be getting the MMR. 

People keep writing about these 'coincidences' but where is your hard proof???? I dont see it. 

Where is the hard proof that the MMR has killed 30 babies and what is that out off 40,100, 30,000 or all the babies that have had the MMR????? 

I had it, My OH had it, My niece had it and my girls are also going to get it. 

All this rubbish going around. the studies that were done on these kids were cruel and nothing less than child abuse! If you continue to support this man and his 'fact findings' then so be it. 

I wont have someone tell me that the MMR is the cause of '30 babies' deaths when there is no rock solid proof. so get over it!


----------



## Laura2919

And on top of that the new cervical cancer injection has taken a few lives but thats like anything really.. 

I think I would rather know what i did my best and protected them other than being the one whos kids spread the virus!


----------



## Serene123

Rude.

There are other reasons, it isn't just the autism link.

I think it's fine that people don't vaccinate their children. That is their decision.


----------



## Laura2919

Rude?? Be serious. If you choose to not have your child vaccinated your putting the health of young babies at serious risk! Because of some stupid facts which have never ever been proven and lets face it there is no 'hard' facts.


----------



## Laura2919

Well anyway that is my opinion and I am entitlted to it just like you are. 

I dont see that I was rude in any way its my point and i am allowed to make it. 

My girls will be getting vaccinated


----------



## xxxjacxxx

Laura2919 said:


> Sorry but I gotta write this because its driving me mad.
> 
> I think all parents who choose to not get their children vaccinated are mental! Because of one poxy study saying it causes autism??
> 
> When I was pregnant they said I shouldnt drink at all. My SIL is pregnant and they said a glass of red wine is good for you! PLEASE! and you insist on believing all that sh*t that is around these days!
> 
> My daughters have had all the vaccinations to date and wont be giving anyone measles, mumps or rubella either because they will be getting the MMR.
> 
> People keep writing about these 'coincidences' but where is your hard proof???? I dont see it.
> 
> Where is the hard proof that the MMR has killed 30 babies and what is that out off 40,100, 30,000 or all the babies that have had the MMR?????
> 
> I had it, My OH had it, My niece had it and my girls are also going to get it.
> 
> All this rubbish going around. the studies that were done on these kids were cruel and nothing less than child abuse! If you continue to support this man and his 'fact findings' then so be it.
> 
> I wont have someone tell me that the MMR is the cause of '30 babies' deaths when there is no rock solid proof. so get over it!

*Again this thread seems to be going downhill fast as some people decide to take their own 'beleifs' a little too far*

*The MMR is a controversial subject, one in which not everybody will agree on for their own reasons. People should NOT be judged or called names ie 'Mental' just because they choose NOT to vaccinate their kids. Nobody has the RIGHT to dictate to ANYBODY.

If you cant join in the debate in a healthy and informative manner then please choose to bite your tongue and leave the thread. 

Thank you.
*


----------



## Serene123

Even children who have had the MMR can catch measles, mumps and rubella, the symptoms are just lessened to THAT child, not the baby would might catch it off a vaccinated child....

And yes, I do think you're being quite rude.


----------



## Laura2919

Ok, I apologise. Maybe mental werent the look I was going for. 

I am sorry if i upset anyone...


----------



## Tiff

toriaaaaTRASH said:


> Even children who have had the MMR can catch measles, mumps and rubella, the symptoms are just lessened to THAT child, not the baby would might catch it off a vaccinated child....

You yourself have said that you're worried about the risks of your daughter catching measles, and her immune system is quite a bit stronger than that of a newborn. So think of that fear, along with how newborns and young infants who are just as susceptible, if not more so than children who have had the routine of shots.

Also, most of the comments on here where people have delayed or not given the vaccines have fully acknowledged that they are putting their children safety first, before anyone else's. _Which I totally understand_. Claire (obviously) is my main priority. But so are other people's kids, iykwim? The infant across the way (figuratively speaking) isn't your concern, but to that infants mother, it is.

:shrug: So yeah, people are going to be upset.


----------



## KrisKitten

I think its obviouse peope are upset...but like people sid (and everyone agreed) they would not put their child up for a study that could potentially save tons of other children if it meant that their child could _potentially_ be at risk.
Now while it may flicker in your mind that its a wonder how these studies can be done without ne1 risking their children for the cause (so to speak) and that if u had maybe 100s of other kids would survive, i dont thnk ne1 would change ther decision if what trheyr doig they feel is in the best interest of their kids. 
As a parent if u hold a belief thinking that somethng is either helpul or harmful to your children to will act accoridngly to that opinion.
So putting down people that have sumply made the decision to protect their kids first i dont think is fair.
Im pretty sure that while tommy will get the jab, i will be waiting till he is after 2, as i dont feel it is safe (studies etc aside) to inject SUCH as small child with a strain of such a dangerouse illness.
Im sorry if that upsets ne1 but its what i would do in the best interest of my bub xxxxxx


----------



## moomin_troll

everyone now just needs to realise people think very differently and if people dont want to give their children jabs it is there buisness.

if zane got ill my first thought would be him not of the child who hadnt had the mmr jab or anything jab for that matter.

given a jab or not our children can still catch these things and it wont always be from a child who hasnt had the mmr.

this thread was created to help toria make up her mind on what she wanted to do for HER child and people came on with things that they have and will do ect

so ppl soundnt be getting so mad and worked up about what another mother wants to do for her child


----------



## Tiff

Who's getting mad and worked up? :shrug: :haha:


----------



## Serene123

I do worry, but it still isn't my place to say who should be vaccinated and who shouldn't. Aslong as I do what I feel is right for Caitlyn then other peoples children are not my issue. Even if all the children were vaccinated I'd still be worried she might get it from an adult who isn't. This thread has been very helpful to me, I don't want people to start getting angry at eachother or saying things they know they shouldn't say because they feel they can get away with it if they say it slyly.


----------



## Tiff

Who's being sly? :shrug:

I'm not saying that people shouldn't, I'm very much in the same "to each their own" camp. However, that doesn't mean that I can't express my displeasure because I personally don't agree with it. No different than the people who shake their heads at those who vaccinate, because it isn't something that they personally would do.

Edit:

I'm asking because too many times there are people who throw stuff out there, or get the emotions misconstrued.


----------



## Foogirl

mommyof3co said:


> fact when there are these "outbreaks" the majority are usually vaccinated kids. And also some vaccines shed that can give it to these babies that aren't.

Of course, you can give a link to the figures which back up that statement.....

As for "natural cycles" of disease, it sounds like you've been sold a very one sided version of the truth.


KrisKitten said:


> I mean u say if ur kid caught somethin off a kid who wasnt vacinated ud be angry...but surely that would only happen if ur kid wasntvaccinated either?
> Right?

As well as babies who have not been vaccinated yet, there are some children who cannot be vaccinated for medical reasons, and some for whom the vaccination is ineffective. Those are the children at risk.

Not only that, if more people would vaccinate, these diseases could be eradicated, as smallpox was, and there would be no need for any child to be exposed to the vaccine.


----------



## mommyof3co

Ugh I hate when people assume I didn't do the research on BOTH sides. Or that I could be easily "sold" on something so important. I spend hours and hours, days, weeks, months researching what to do. I looked on both sides and decided what was best for my family. I'm very aware of the risks and benefits of both sides and to me it's more risky to give my kids the vaccines.


----------



## Foogirl

mommyof3co said:


> Ugh I hate when people assume I didn't do the research on BOTH sides. Or that I could be easily "sold" on something so important. I spend hours and hours, days, weeks, months researching what to do. I looked on both sides and decided what was best for my family. I'm very aware of the risks and benefits of both sides and to me it's more risky to give my kids the vaccines.

So you have a link to figures which back up the statement?


----------



## mommyof3co

Foogirl said:


> mommyof3co said:
> 
> 
> Ugh I hate when people assume I didn't do the research on BOTH sides. Or that I could be easily "sold" on something so important. I spend hours and hours, days, weeks, months researching what to do. I looked on both sides and decided what was best for my family. I'm very aware of the risks and benefits of both sides and to me it's more risky to give my kids the vaccines.
> 
> So you have a link to figures which back up the statement?Click to expand...

Yes I could provide you with links, but I don't see why I should. I'm not trying to sway you any way. I have my reasons for not vaccinating my kids. And if you are interested you are more than welcome to pm me or look it up yourself, but I'm not going to have what I say picked apart everytime I say something. You believe in vaccines, good for you. I don't. I could put down and pick apart everything people are saying on why they get the vaccines but I'm not doing that am I? No because it's not my business or my choice. I haven't said anywhere in this thread anyone is wrong for what they do and I hope I haven't made anyone feel that way....but you are out to "prove me wrong" or try and make me feel bad....well you aren't going to. I even told Toria if she feels the way she does then she should be vaccinating it's not like I'm out promoting not vaccinating, I'm not trying to turn people against vaccines. I've shared my opinion on the issue and SOME of why we chose not to and I don't think I should have to justify everything I write to to you. 


And yes I edited what I originally put which did have some links because I'm sure my sources would have just been picked apart as well....like I said originally they weren't the ones I had originally used in my research just something I was able to find showing the same thing...I have a diff computer now than when I did the research originally and don't have my same bookmarks. 

But anyways I'm not trying to be a bitch I'm just tired of people wanting me to justify MY choices, it's not like those asking me are trying to decide for themselves which way to go, they already know what they want to do and just want to put down whatever I say, and that's fine that's their opinions but I'm not going to waste my time trying to prove myself to them because I don't need to. As I said before I know what I'm doing is right for my family. I'll make my choices for my family and you make them for yours, you won't see me putting down what you are doing and telling you you are wrong, it's not my place, just like it isn't yours to try and prove how what I'm doing is not "right" in your mind.


----------



## KrisKitten

Thanks Foogirl i do understand now...i did think i must be missing somethin - bnb tot he rescue! lol

it does seem to me that this thread has gone from being, 'y do u think that i am trying to decide' to 'y do u think that, im sure your wrong'
Which is neither useful nor relevant to the OP i dont think.
So i think im out now, thanks for starting this thread Toria, a lot of the points made have been very helpful for me in terms of making my own decisions :)
I will keep an eye to see if there r ne new points raised but im pretty sure the subject has been demolished now, 
so thanks again to every1 :) xxxxx


----------



## Foogirl

mommyof3co said:


> Yes I could provide you with links, but I don't see why I should. I'm not trying to sway you any way.

Well, in the first instance, it is good internet forum practice when providing "facts" to provide some sort of substantiation.

But more importantly, if the OP is in two minds whether or not to go ahead with the vaccination, providing a properly substantiated argument will give her the information she would need in order to make the decision. It would be preferrable to simply accepting the say so of a stranger on an internet forum. You wouldn't actually be providing them for me as I have made the decision to go ahead with the vaccinations.


----------



## mommyof3co

Yes but everything I've provided thus far you feel the need to pick apart. Toria has already made up her mind to get the vaccine. I'm not trying to tell her not to anyways, I gave my reasons for not, I have put links up earlier in the thread, but I wasn't trying to convince her not to. If she would have been interested in anything I was saying about not she was free to ask me. Especially in threads like this I'm pretty vague because most people don't agree, also most threads would have negative things about vaccines therefore people want to debate it and I don't want to seem like I'm putting them down or trying to convince people not to get them. I do think people should do the research themselves and figure out what they feel is best for their family....if anyone is curious about my reasons they are more than welcome to pm me and ask for more sources or more info...which a few have. But I don't want anyone to think I'm trying to put down their choices by posting negative things about the vaccines, or that I'm trying to convince people to stop vaccinating.


----------



## marley2580

I'd just like to back up what MO3 is saying. This thread isn't for arguments, yet some seem to be wanting her to post just so they can refute what she says. I selectively vaccinate as I feel that is best for my family, just as I feel BF and home education is. It's my business, no one elses.

eta. Oh and I don't feel even slightly guilty. And my mum selectively vaccinated and we're all still alive and well.


----------



## moomin_troll

my mum had trouble giving me,my sister and brother vaccinations when we were babies as we all reacted badly to eggs and most jabs have eggs in them.

so like another person has stated some people cant have the jabs, its not all balck and white.

i also dont think people like mo3 should have to justify herself to anyone just like she hasnt actualy asked anyone to prove why they are for vaccinations


----------



## KrisKitten

Exaclty agree with the obve 2 posts, Toria herself hasnt asked for these links so theres no need 
Im not suprised Mumof3 is sick of being attacked for her decision xxx


----------



## Foogirl

It seems bizarre that on a thread discussing whether or not to have the MMR jab, sweeping statements can be made and these are taken as fact without the slightest bit of substantiation.

There is a difference between argument and debate. Similarly, if advice is sought, I don't see why giving all the facts, on both sides is an issue. Mommyof3co obviously has some interesting information for those who are looking at whether or not to vaccinate. I can't see what is so wrong in asking for a source for it, to investigate further if you want all the facts.

Let's not forget, it is misinformation touted by so called experts and the tabloid press which led to the MMR being questioned by the general public in the first place. Internet forums are full of people making wildly inaccurate claims about MMR - and other vaccinations (not that I am suggesting Mommy is one of them) I'd say it is important to provide a source for any information to let people understand you are not one of them and ensure people don't dismiss your viewpoint out of hand.

I should also point out that I have never (and would never) attacked anyone for their decision not to vaccinate. It is a personal choice.


----------



## mommyof3co

I don't expect anyone to take anything I say as fact. I've provided information earlier in the thread, and everytime I have posted something you or someone else has tried to put down my source. Sadly most information is one sided, so you have to read through both, so yes some of the things I post are going to come from a site that is against vaccines but it's still facts based on research but you probably won't find it on the pro vaccine sites, that's just how it is...it's almost all one sided. So I haven't posted anymore because people want to put down that it's just a site that's against vaccines, and on that site along with the info I'm pointing out is also info saying vaccines aren't good so that can be offensive and then it turns into a debate about that and I just don't want to get into it. That's why I haven't posted anything else. 

I gave the OP my opinion on the vaccine for my kids and I"m pretty sure also showed her some info about how it's been shown to be better to hold off until atleast 15mo if you are going to get it because a high % of babies that have it under that age the measles portion doesn't take. I provided a link to go with it. 

But I'll say it again, no one should just take my word for it, def do your own research and I'd be more than happy to provide some links (most of which would be against vaccines) if someone is looking to look into that side. I just don't think to post my opinion on my reasons I need to provide a link with it everytime.


----------



## jam-on-toast

I initially come on here tonight looking for info on MMR jab as our RR (22mths)is due to have her the end of the month. I think I've got myself back in to a state of worry!!

We too have been putting it off until as late as possible for a number of the reasons some Mums have also mentioned here.

Here the children must be vaccinated and have a Dr's list before admitted to the general schooling/social system. We have recently put her to private nursery. So, it's something complusory givent he fact we want her to go to school as we live here.

Part of the reason we have been putting it off is that our Dr was trying to have us have the MMR combined with Chicken pox jab together, which is something we didn't want as we don't feel the need to over vaccinate, eventually we have been called for the normal MMR jab, I'm worried as hell as is my husband as I think we would never forgive ourselves if it turned out she has side effects which will last the rest of her life. Although we would feel the same if we didn't vaccinate and she contracted an illness which also jeopardised her health.

Why is it such a worrying time for us?


----------



## moomin_troll

alot of children have the mmr and are absolutly fine, im not sure if its been proven that the mmr has killed a child or even had lasting damange. but im sure if my son past just have the jab id make the same connections.

if u and ur oh are both this worried about the mmr then i think another good long chat is in oder with ur doctor so he/she can help u make ur minds up.

if they tried to give zane the mmr and chicken pox jab at once id of said hell no too.
im sure if ud ask others for links to research they have seen to help make thers minds up like mothers who say its a must have and others that dont ect

good luck in making ur mind up, its really not easy when making these choices.


----------



## mommyof3co

Where do you live Jam-on-toast?

MMR has been shown to cause the death of some kids, though it's a low number. You can search on this to see different side effects that have happened due to the MMR. YOu can search less serious, life threatening, death and so on. This is just for those reported, which it is believed is only a very small amount, and it's only for US patients.

https://www.medalerts.org/

Good luck in making your decision :)


----------



## Midnight_Fairy

KrisKitten said:


> I think its obviouse peope are upset...but like people sid (and everyone agreed) they would not put their child up for a study that could potentially save tons of other children if it meant that their child could _potentially_ be at risk.
> Now while it may flicker in your mind that its a wonder how these studies can be done without ne1 risking their children for the cause (so to speak) and that if u had maybe 100s of other kids would survive, i dont thnk ne1 would change ther decision if what trheyr doig they feel is in the best interest of their kids.
> As a parent if u hold a belief thinking that somethng is either helpul or harmful to your children to will act accoridngly to that opinion.
> So putting down people that have sumply made the decision to protect their kids first i dont think is fair.
> Im pretty sure that while tommy will get the jab, i will be waiting till he is after 2, as i dont feel it is safe (studies etc aside) to inject SUCH as small child with a strain of such a dangerouse illness.
> Im sorry if that upsets ne1 but its what i would do in the best interest of my bub xxxxxx


Yes, I totally agree. My son had the jab at 13mths and I feel it was far to young. With my daughter she had her letter at 14mths but I put it off untill she was 2.


----------



## bibswy

I posted this in baby club but seeing this post thought I'd put it here too. I am really worried about the MMR....

We took Billie for her swine flu jab on Thursday and she had major allergic reaction and went into anaphylatic shock within 30 seconds. I was so scared. The GP saved her live by giving her adrenyln (sp?) otherwise I dread to think what would have happened. She was so purple her nose was almost black, she was floppy in my arms and in and out of consciousness. The adrenilyn was a real lifesaver and after about 10 mins she looked a lot better. We were rushed to hospital in the ambulance and have been let home today. It was the worst day of my life and I can't sleep coz I keep replaying what happened over in my head and i'm so upset.Thankfully, she is back to her normal cheeky self 

Billie has no history of allergies and has been fine with all of her other jabs... I just want to say to everyone that please consider carefully before having the swine flu jab as its new and not fully tested. I realise that loads of kids have the jab with no problems and I don't want to jump on the "jabs are bad" bandwagon. 

we are hoping to get refered to an allergy clinic to find out exacly what is was in the vaccine that caused such a serious reaction. 

Billie is due her MMR jab next month and I admit I'm worried. They have said we can have it at the hospital though so at least we would be in the right place should anything occcur. I don't know if it would be better to have the MMR seperately or not.. I'm going to see the GP asap and ask his opinion. I know I'll just be so worried each time she's due for any jab.


----------



## Sarahkka

bibswy - what a scary story! :hugs: So glad your little one is okay.
As far as I have read, the allergic reaction you described would be more likely to have been triggered by an ingredient in the vaccination than from the virus itself. To have an allergic reaction, your body has to have had at least one prior exposure. And an allergic reaction to a virus is not very common.
I don't think having separate shots for the MMR would really reduce the risk of reaction, particularly if your daughter is reacting to a preservative or something like that in the vaccination. You are planning to hold off until you know what caused the episode anyway, right? There should be options for vaccinating if she can't have the regular stuff, and I'm sure your Health Clinic will give you good advice.
I am so glad that there was someone competent to deal with your emergency. Very scary.


----------



## PeanutBean

Hi all, sorry to wade on in but having gone back quite a few pages I haven't noticed anyone mention the news on the MMR/autism 'research'. I realise people have lots of reasons for choosing not to vaccinate but if your decision is based on autism and you still feel unconvinced by all the people saying the research was crap, it's important that you know that last week (was it?) Wakefield was struck off the medical register and his research paper has ben retracted from the Lancet meaning there really is no evidence of a link with autism and lots of evidence finding no link. Sorry if this has been mentioned and my memory of time is all skewiff!


----------



## fein&waiting

mine is totally unrelated to research and probably deemed irrelevant as such (seeing as statistics would probably brand it that) but a small statistical analysis: I'm one of 6 kids, all fully vaccinated, all healthy and unaffected. My husband is one of 3 and the same there, i have 40 cousins on my mother's side (my mum is one of 6 who most of had large families like ours) and my DH has 20 cousins. Most of that 60 have had all their vaccinations and again, all healthy and unaffected. Just something to think about. My personal 2 reasons for vaccination, provided I think it's safe, is that it prevents spreading of potentially life threatining or debilitating diseases and the other, should any of my children be susceptible to these diseases in a bad way, i know that they have been protected. Everyone has their reasoning behind what they do, that's mine.


----------



## sam#3

I have refused the swine flu jab for harry and dylan (seems irrelevant considering dylan had confirmed swine flu when it was rife, took the tamiflu and made a rapid recovery) and im not having harry vaccinated with the mmr yet as imo its too early


----------



## Tiff

PeanutBean said:


> Hi all, sorry to wade on in but having gone back quite a few pages I haven't noticed anyone mention the news on the MMR/autism 'research'. I realise people have lots of reasons for choosing not to vaccinate but if your decision is based on autism and you still feel unconvinced by all the people saying the research was crap, it's important that you know that last week (was it?) Wakefield was struck off the medical register and his research paper has been retracted from the Lancet meaning there really is no evidence of a link with autism and lots of evidence finding no link. Sorry if this has been mentioned and my memory of time is all skewiff!

I posted a link! :thumbup: The day after the court findings. :) I'm so glad they did that, hopefully it'll put some issues to rest.


----------



## Foogirl

Tyff said:


> I posted a link! :thumbup: The day after the court findings. :) I'm so glad they did that, hopefully it'll put some issues to rest.

Unfortunately, until the daily mail make as big a deal of this as they did of the "findings" people will still believe it. They will never do that because it would make them look very foolish.

And as long as there are parents who want to convince the world their child is autistic because of MMR, the tabloids will eat that up.


----------



## KrisKitten

idont think its fair to say they want to convince te world...more like thats what they believe caused it...the symptom 4 autism r meant to show round a similar age as the mmr is given so its understandable pple could make the link xxx


----------



## Tiff

But to make a link with no actual evidence? :shrug: And to still make that link, when its been conclusively proven that his 'findings' were rubbish? To me that's wanting to blame something external rather than acknowledging that there is no link between MMR and Autism. 

Here's another link.

I'm still amazed that people will still hold onto one research finding, rather than acknowledging the many that dispute it. Mind boggling. I understand (but don't agree) with people wanting to delay vaccines. But to embrace a wackjob's crackpot findings, so much that it's been stricken from the record (as in, they will go on as if that paper had never been published) is crazy to me!

It'd be like going off of superstition, rather than facts. Like believing that if you swing your wedding ring around your pregnant belly will more accurately predict the sex of your baby rather than having an ultrasound. That analogy is just how I see when people still believe it. :shrug:


----------



## mommyof3co

I don't think it's the "research" that has made these parents feel that way. It's like they KNOW their child better than anyone, they know what milestones they were hitting, their personality, their speech and then suddenly after the shot that child was gone, they "know" in their hearts what changed their child and no research saying otherwise will make them feel differently. 

The autism/mmr stuff really had nothing to do with my decision so this new stuff they are saying changes absolutely nothing for me. It was more like well here is one more thing that makes me question the vaccines but with or without it I would have came to the same conclusion


----------



## Tiff

mommyof3co said:


> I don't think it's the "research" that has made these parents feel that way. It's like they KNOW their child better than anyone, they know what milestones they were hitting, their personality, their speech and then suddenly after the shot that child was gone, they "know" in their hearts what changed their child and no research saying otherwise will make them feel differently.
> 
> The autism/mmr stuff really had nothing to do with my decision so this new stuff they are saying changes absolutely nothing for me. It was more like well here is one more thing that makes me question the vaccines but with or without it I would have came to the same conclusion

That instance is very, very few and very very far between. I do agree, some children may react with the vaccine. Parents need to do whats best for their children, obviously. There are children who react to the regular immunizations too, not just the MMR.

Its the people who take Dr Wakefields study as gospel, and ignore the findings that I am talking about.


----------



## mommyof3co

I think it might be more common than you realize, there are huge forums of women that feel exactly what I described. 

I wouldn't be against vaccines if they made them safer. I don't know why they would think that it should be one size fits all. Since when were all children the same? They vary on milestones, how they are fed, how often they get sick, how big they are at certain ages...all babies/kids are so different why would they think that every child should need the same dose at the same time and that be safe? I don't understand that. But until the vaccines themselves are made safer, I don't agree with some of the ingredients, and I'm sure at this point it's the only way they know how to preserve them or make them effective, maybe in a few years there will be different ways but at this point I don't feel they are safe enough for my kids. But even if made safer there are still some I'd avoid that I really don't feel are needed...for instance RSV, chicken pox, hep b..and a few others. I would have chosen to get some other ones on a very delayed schedule if the vaccine itself was different. But I think they should rethink the recommended vaccine schedule too.

I do agree though, I don't think people should go off of one thing, for instance Dr. Wakefield's research, and make a decision purely based on that. There is so much to consider aside from that one thing.


----------



## moomin_troll

i really dont no how many times ppl will go over this on here. 

people will believe what they want and its not for anyone else to question them, its their lives and their children.

having a autistic brother i personaly dont think theres a link between the mmr and autisum but others will, just as they will believe the mmr causes other problems.

this thread has been beaten to death now several times over and people dont need to waste there time making the same points.


----------



## Foogirl

mommyof3co said:


> why would they think that every child should need the same dose at the same time and that be safe?

Oh I dunno, maybe the years of trials and research as well as the millions of children who have them with no ill effects at all :shrug:

That and the fact that they have a vested interest in getting it right as it would do them no good to do something which was inherently harmful to the vast majority of children.


----------



## mommyof3co

Ugh exactly what I said before, you are out to pick apart everything I say. I'm giving MY opinion. How I feel on them. Someone asked for those who don't vaccinate if the release of the info saying the autism/mmr research being taken out was going to change how we feel, I answered on what would make me change my min. I'm done, I'm tired of you picking apart what I say and acting as if I'm stupid for my decision.

There are hundreds of thousands of kids effected by these vaccines in many ways, not just autism, but other neurological disorders, allergic reactions, some mild all the way up to causing death. Yes there are also lots of children that have no ill effects. But I"m not willing to take that chance. My kids aren't one size fits all and I'm not going to inject them with things I feel are dangerous because most kids are ok.


----------



## KrisKitten

She didnt say it was dangerous to a vast majority of children, just that it might be harmful to some...xxx


----------



## Foogirl

mommyof3co said:


> Ugh exactly what I said before, you are out to pick apart everything I say. I'm giving MY opinion. How I feel on them. Someone asked for those who don't vaccinate if the release of the info saying the autism/mmr research being taken out was going to change how we feel, I answered on what would make me change my min. I'm done, I'm tired of you picking apart what I say and acting as if I'm stupid for my decision.
> 
> There are hundreds of thousands of kids effected by these vaccines in many ways, not just autism, but other neurological disorders, allergic reactions, some mild all the way up to causing death. Yes there are also lots of children that have no ill effects. But I"m not willing to take that chance. My kids aren't one size fits all and I'm not going to inject them with things I feel are dangerous because most kids are ok.

You asked why they thought they would treat all children the same, I gave MY opinion.

One of the biggest problems with MMR being linked so much to autism is that these other potential issues you are concerned about are being largely ignored. I'd have thought having that link discredited would be of benefit to those who have other concerns.

And incidentally, I have never stated, hinted or even insinuated that you are stupid for your decision, and you have been clear that the autism link is irrelevant to your decision. As I recall I've told you that several times now. You are doing what you feel is best for your family my only concern was that in order for others to properly make their decision on whether or not to vaccinate that some of the information you have posted appeared to have no verifiable source but as you pointed out, you are happy to provide that via PM if people request it.

In any case, you have made your decision and you are satisfied with that, MY opinion (or that of anyone else) should be of no concern to you.


----------



## mommyof3co

I meant it more as a rhetorical question, but yes it's your opinion. But I wasn't meaning that it was dangerous to most kids, just that to some kids it is and certain factors should be weighed when giving the vaccines. Just because most kids are ok I don't think that all should be given the same way. When you give medications for instance it's not based on age, it's based on weight as well....but that isn't the case with vaccines. That's all I was trying to say, not that they are harmful to the vast majority of kids. I also think their enviroment should also come into play when figuring out which they really need. I just think the recommended schedule needs to be rethought. JMO.

And yes your opinion, or others doesn't mean anything to me, it doesn't make me rethink my decision or feel guilty as I said before, but the same goes to you. The things I say shouldn't matter because you are happy in your decision as well, that's why I don't get why you seem to be questioning everything I say.


----------



## Foogirl

mommyof3co said:


> When you give medications for instance it's not based on age, it's based on weight as well....but that isn't the case with vaccines.
> 
> I just think the recommended schedule needs to be rethought. JMO.
> 
> I don't get why you seem to be questioning everything I say.

When it comes to weight, it may well be that the weight really isn't an issue. Vaccines aren't medicines, but even with medicines the weight goes in categories. There is still always a minimum dose. Perhaps it is the case that the vaccine given is based on a minimum dose. Abby was premature and we had assumed she would get her first set of vaccines at 8 weeks corrected age, which would have made her over 4 months old, but nope, she had them at 8 weeks actual. I was concerned about that but discussed it at length with the consultant, who was able to put my mind at rest. She explained what was in them and how they worked and compared it to everything else that had been given to her in the NNICU and it really did seem low risk.

The schedule probably suits the vast majority of children. But, as a parent, you have every right to delay the vaccinations if you think it would suit your child better. It would be an administrative nightmare to try to please everyone in every situation.

I apologise if it seems I am questioning everything you say, that is not my intention. You have clearly done a great deal of research into this (and many other) area. As I said earlier, I do get very concerned about possible misinformation. After all, it is misinformation that got people worried about Autism and MMR in the first place. Anyone can come onto an internet forum (or write a paper in the Lancet) and say "this vaccine is really really dangerous and kills thousands of babies" (btw, I'm not saying that is what you have done)and before you know it, bam! loads and loads of people decide on that basis not to have their children vaccinated without looking into it any further. Vaccination rates go down, herd immunity is gone and diseases we had nearly stamped out are on the rise. That is my concern.


----------



## mommyof3co

I understand that which is why I don't want people just taking my word for it, although I don't believe anything I'm saying is incorrect but there is always another side to it. 

I'm sure the weight is like a minimum dose type of thing, I was just using it as an example. Just to me it seems odd they would think that all kids "are created equal" when it comes to something being injected into their bodies. I just think more needs to be done to make them fit the needs of certain kids. If that happened, and the ingredient were something I felt more comfortable with I might change my mind and give some of the vaccines, I still wouldn't do all even if they did change though. I do get how it would be more of a pain, I guess you could say, to do it that way, but I think when it comes to our kids health it's worth it for them to do that. 

While I don't feel my kids are at a huge risk for most of these diseases anyways of course it would be nice that if they were exposed they would have a little more protection than what we have at this point, which is us doing what we can to build their immune system in a more natural way, and that if they were to get it it would be more mild in most cases. But at this point I feel like the risk is too great for them to possibly have those benefits, which obviously aren't 100% anyways, but them being exposed to what I feel are dangerous ingredients, side effects would be 100% chance if we gave them to them kwim? 

No one wants their kids sick and as parents we want to do what ever we can to keep them from getting sick or make them feel better when it happens, so I'm no different, just at this point we do it in a different ways. I think it's obvious you have also done alot of research on the topic and feel very confident in your choice to have the vaccines, and I in no way look down on you for that or think you should have come to a different conclusion. I'm glad that I have the choice to do what I feel is right for my kids and them still have every opportunity that other kids would have. 

I do have a question though :) I'm not sure if it's been said before...I know I addressed that we have to get exemptions for the boys to attend public schools, or if they were to have gone to daycare. How is it like there? Are there exemptions? Or is it absolutely required no getting around it?


----------



## Tiff

Re: "One dose fits all".

I found that interesting. :) With all vaccines, you are given a standard dose. Say with your Tetnus shot, flu shot, swine flu shot, etc etc etc... the same dose is given to a 300lbs man, and a 160lbs man. It isn't about the size of the dose to the size of the child, its how much of the vaccine is needed to be present in your body for it to work. 

Not arguing, just sayin'. :haha:


----------



## Tiff

We have laws here, saying that your child has to be vaccinated in order to go to daycare, schools and whatnot. I don't know of anyone who has delayed them here, tbh... so I don't know if you can get an exemption.

:)


----------



## Foogirl

As far as I know, there are no laws, or even rules that children must be vaccinated. There may well be individual nurseries which require it, but I don't think it is common for that to be the case. The one I signed up to asked what she had had.

The state school system doesn't require it either. It is possible that private schools do, I don't know. There has been some debate whether state schools should insist on it, but this is rejected primarily because it would be tantamount to the government insisting your children are vaccinated and that isn't popular here at all.


----------



## mommyof3co

Yeah here everything says it's "required" for them to enter school to have all these vaccines, you have to show their vaccine record to enroll them. But then we have the exemptions so that's what I would give instead. There are 2 states that there are no exemptions for, well besides medical, all states have medical, then all but those 2 have atleast 2 forms of exemption, the medical and then either religious or philisophical...some have all 3.


----------



## polo_princess

So out of curiosity Beth how did you get exemption, not necessarily your reasonings behind not vaccinating but the process of gaining exemption, do you have to attend an interview or board meeting and then go on to get an exemption certificate? We dont really have that here so im curious as to how it works :)

ETA - if your not comfy to discuss the ins and outs on here, would you pm it to me? :flower:


----------



## charlotteb24

I didnt think twice about having noah have his MMR's it wasn't the mmr that made noah ill, it was the meningitis C one! he was scarily high temp etc etc with that one! To work for healthare in the UK you have to have the MMR all over again so Noah had his on the Monday and i had my MMR jabs at work the same week and we are both fine!
The jabs have gone through years of stringent testing unlike the swine flu jab and the %age of babies/children who get autism for example is low when you conisder the ammount of babies who are vaccinated each year.
The one i didnt want noah to have as here they have mmr and another jab plus men C all in one go (3 seperate needles) was the men c as he was so poorly but i was made to have all 3 jabs as without 1 it would mess the dates out for another!
plus if they run a temp first shot around, the nurse said they wont 2nd time as the body has created immunity


----------



## Foogirl

mommyof3co said:


> Yeah here everything says it's "required" for them to enter school to have all these vaccines, you have to show their vaccine record to enroll them. But then we have the exemptions so that's what I would give instead. There are 2 states that there are no exemptions for, well besides medical, all states have medical, then all but those 2 have atleast 2 forms of exemption, the medical and then either religious or philisophical...some have all 3.

Does everyone who asks, get an exemption? If so, it would seem a little pointless to insist on the jabs. If not, as Polo asks, what grounds are deemed acceptable for an exemption?

Although I wish all parents would have their children vaccinated, I'm really not a fan of forcing parents to do it. Smacks of the nanny state. Parents should always have the choice over how they choose to raise their children and unless they are putting them in grave danger it is none of the government's business.


----------



## mommyof3co

Yeah that's how I feel, well that we should all have the choice, and the government shouldn't interfere unless absolutely necessary. 

Philosophical exemptions it varies state to state. For instance in Colorado on the back of the vaccine records they used there was a place to sign saying you were opting out of vaccines and you just gave that to the school. Here in Texas we had to send off from a paper from the state that had the state seal and all of that, fill it out and have it notarized and give that to the school. So you have to go through more here to get it but since it is philosophical all that really means is you don't personally believe so anyone who feels that way, yes can get the exemption. 

Religious I'm not sure how it works here since we don't use it but from what I understand it also varies state to state but that most you write a letter stating the laws/rights whatever you are choosing to exercise and say that it's against your religious beliefs to have the vaccines. Apparently it's against the law for them to ask for specifics with your religion and what exactly is against vaccines, so if you go through the right steps and write the letter properly I guess anyone can get those too. 

But the law is either or, so you HAVE to have the vaccines and proof or HAVE to have the exemption, you can't just get out of it saying you don't believe or whatever. You have to go through more steps to get the exemptions. Oh and alot of people here don't even realize you CAN get the exemptions, they just think it is required and that's it...they don't make it very well known that they aren't exactly required.


----------

