# Hospital bans Elective C-Sections



## chuck

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-york-north-yorkshire-14724940

Brilliant CS banned for non medical reasons. IMO more hospitals need to move towards this.


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## mrsraggle

I had no idea that c-sections could be performed without a medical reason anyway. I think with the extra cost especially that all hospitals should have that policy.


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## gills8752

I didn't realise you could get it on the NHS without medical reasons! I don't understand why they would do that?!!


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## happygal

i know people have their own reasons but i dont understand why anyone would choose to have a c section, the thought of it terrifies me! x


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## amore

it is also more dangerous for the mother and baby so I have no idea why the NHS would perform cs without a medical reason


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## x__amour

There are a lot of hospitals here in the US that are banning c-sections/inductions before 40 weeks without medical reasons and I am thrilled! It's just so unnecessary! Also not entirely sure why anyone would want a c-section, they're not very fun! :(


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## Eternal

Didnt know you could just choose one, so a good move but one that should have happened a long time ago. Why someone would choose a section for no medical reason is a weird one though. Surley there must be medical reasons why 114 people choose to???

Im hoping and praying im not going to need one but its more than likely that I will, but saying that babies are both head down alreday so fingers crossed they stay that way!

Nothing wrong with someone needing a section, but i cant understand why someone would choose to for no medical reason.


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## jadesh101

I think it should be done all over!


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## tristansmum

my friend just had elctive section with out medical reason. basically her first birth was traumatic with forceps, third degree tear and her son didn't breath when born and was resused for 5 minutes. he said she couldn't do a vaginal birth again after that. i have mixed feelings about it. hving had an emergency section myself i'd not recommend it unless neccassary. however, i can also understand her fears and can't imagine how hard her sons birth and first few minutes were.


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## teal

I also didn't realise you could choose one without a medical reason! 

Although, regarding the above post. I had an emergency forceps delivery with my son which resulted in an episiotomy and a tear into my bowel and I've been advised to have a section if I have another baby. I've not decided what I would do if I did have another baby but I was advised there is a risk of being incontinent if a tear like that is repeated xx


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## Carly2310

I chose a c-section the second time around due to the traumatic first labour I had which resulted in a cat-1 emergency c section. 
I think if there's a good reason then a section should be an option for me the thought of going through what I went through again gave me actual panic attacks.
I think that in these cases the mothers psychological needs should also be considered.
I don't 'condone' un-needed sections but some people may have viewed my ELCS as un-needed when for me there was no other option
:flower:


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## chuck

But a psychological reason IS a medical one...however many women could rock a good VBAC if they had the right support rather than opting for major surgery again.


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## special_kala

Great! Finally movin in the right direction


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## beccad

I think a lot of them are done for mental health reasons rather than a physical problem - a mother having severe problems with her first birth, for example, and having depression and PTSD because of a traumatic birth. I don't think there's very many of the too-posh-to-push c-sections for no reason going on in NHS hospitals.

I hope the hospital is putting in place counselling provision for people who've experienced problems.


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## aliss

I'm just wondering though, exactly what is non-medical? How common is "too posh to push", really? Or do repeat C-sections count? Ie. fine pregnancy but choose not to VBAC? What about breech babies? 

Doesn't matter how healthy my next pregnancy is, I will be having a C-section after my last vaginal (for medical reasons) and I'm not in the UK anyways, but just curious as to what is a non-medical? Does that apply to previous history too>


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## tristansmum

aliss said:


> I'm just wondering though, exactly what is non-medical? How common is "too posh to push", really? Or do repeat C-sections count? Ie. fine pregnancy but choose not to VBAC? What about breech babies?
> 
> Doesn't matter how healthy my next pregnancy is, I will be having a C-section after my last vaginal (for medical reasons) and I'm not in the UK anyways, but just curious as to what is a non-medical? Does that apply to previous history too>


exactly. of those 114 c sections were they elective cause the mum "didn't fancy" a vaginal birth or was it 2nd c sections/ breech/ twins/ traumatic first births????? There is a big difference. I will want to try a vbac next time however, i'd never look down on a lady who chose a repeat c section. there are risks with both and only you can decide which route to take. the same with a breech baby or twin birth. some might say you "can" do it vaginally BUT surly its up to the mother to decide as again there are risks. and i can't even begin to imagine a horribly traumatic birth. i'd say mine wasn't great and a bit traumatic (failed forceps ending in EMSC) but not be so frightened for doing it again is not to be brushed off. my friend had to really fight for her elective section after traumatic first birth. i don't think many nhs hospitals just do c sections for no good reason.


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## Carly2310

tristansmum said:


> my friend had to really fight for her elective section after traumatic first birth. i don't think many nhs hospitals just do c sections for no good reason.

 I had to transfer hospitals to get mine and every time the first hospital told me I would 'have' to try to have a VBAC I would litterally burst into tears and get terrible shakes, my midwife totally understood since she knew how bad first time was (The section saved my life and was almost too late to save DS1) so I sympathise with your friend who had to fight for hers. It's awful to feel so out of control and afraid, for me it was never that I wanted another C-section I just couldn't face labour again, even thinking about my first labour now nearly 6 years later I still tear up and get the shakes. I know how pathetic I sound but it was honestly the worst thing I could have ever imagined happening!!


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## tristansmum

Carly2310 said:


> tristansmum said:
> 
> 
> my friend had to really fight for her elective section after traumatic first birth. i don't think many nhs hospitals just do c sections for no good reason.
> 
> I had to transfer hospitals to get mine and every time the first hospital told me I would 'have' to try to have a VBAC I would litterally burst into tears and get terrible shakes, my midwife totally understood since she knew how bad first time was (The section saved my life and was almost too late to save DS1) so I sympathise with your friend who had to fight for hers. It's awful to feel so out of control and afraid, for me it was never that I wanted another C-section I just couldn't face labour again, even thinking about my first labour now nearly 6 years later I still tear up and get the shakes. I know how pathetic I sound but it was honestly the worst thing I could have ever imagined happening!!Click to expand...

Oh my god your not pathetic at all! I think that sometimes if someone has a "straight forward" birth they don't understand just how scary it can be. I feel lucky that i've come to terms with mine. The crying and shaking only lasted a few weeks for me and i think after 4-5 months i'd made peace with it. If its still affecting you 6 years later then you totally deserve to have your wishes respected. hope this time you can have a wonderful birth experience xxx


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## Snuffy

I had an emergency c-section last time and have my first consultant appointment on Monday. My friend was under consultant care at the same hospital and told me she was given the choice of an elective or VBAC, although they said they would prefer VBAC, ultimately the choice was hers.

Her consultant care was for a previous CS, whereas mine is for previous CS and pre-eclampsia, so I will take his advice on board. I have no strong feelings either way, but what I will say is that I didn't find the recovery from my emergency CS that bad and if I was advised to opt for an elective this time it wouldn't bother me in the slightest. 

The only thing I will put my foot down on is if there is the slightest chance of me being induced again, I will opt for an elective CS, because my induction and subsequent labour was far more hideous than having a section and the recovery from it. I haven't been traumatised by it, but it's not something I would be willing to go through again if I had the choice.


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## Carly2310

tristansmum said:


> Carly2310 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tristansmum said:
> 
> 
> my friend had to really fight for her elective section after traumatic first birth. i don't think many nhs hospitals just do c sections for no good reason.
> 
> I had to transfer hospitals to get mine and every time the first hospital told me I would 'have' to try to have a VBAC I would litterally burst into tears and get terrible shakes, my midwife totally understood since she knew how bad first time was (The section saved my life and was almost too late to save DS1) so I sympathise with your friend who had to fight for hers. It's awful to feel so out of control and afraid, for me it was never that I wanted another C-section I just couldn't face labour again, even thinking about my first labour now nearly 6 years later I still tear up and get the shakes. I know how pathetic I sound but it was honestly the worst thing I could have ever imagined happening!!Click to expand...
> 
> Oh my god your not pathetic at all! I think that sometimes if someone has a "straight forward" birth they don't understand just how scary it can be. I feel lucky that i've come to terms with mine. The crying and shaking only lasted a few weeks for me and i think after 4-5 months i'd made peace with it. If its still affecting you 6 years later then you totally deserve to have your wishes respected. hope this time you can have a wonderful birth experience xxxClick to expand...

Thanks :flower:
My second section was much better I'm on for number three now (because I'm a crazy person) Hopefully I'll get to be away this time since I've had two GA's!! Would be nice to be awake for this one being born!
x


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## Carly2310

Snuffy said:


> The only thing I will put my foot down on is if there is the slightest chance of me being induced again, I will opt for an elective CS, because my induction and subsequent labour was far more hideous than having a section and the recovery from it. I haven't been traumatised by it, but it's not something I would be willing to go through again if I had the choice.

Couldn't agree more, I blame my induction for the whole ordeal!! Good luck this time hope it's plain sailing! :flower:


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## JeepGirl

I would give anything to have a vaginal birth. But because of complications during my EMCS I can't have a VBAC. The recovery was the worst thing I have ever gone through. For me the idea of another c section is far more traumatising than anything that could happen during a vaginal birth.


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## madcatwoman

Alot of people on here have been saying that they didnt know you could have a section without a medical reason, well, this was what i thought too.

But a friend of DH has just had her second section,with no medical reason at all, apart from "fear of a natrual birth", i couldnt believe it, she said she turned on the water works and once again got an elective section:shrug:.
Whats more, her waters went early with this baby,and she was told she could carry on progressing, but told the MWs she was going to have a section, and her wish was granted. all on the NHS.

yet i know people who have had a horrendous traumatic birth, and yet they still cant get a section(at least they tried the 1st time around!)

I too had the most shocking SPD to the point where durring the last month i could only shuffle to the toilet, and went 42 weeks over due, pain was incredible, but they did not see this as a medical reason for a section.

:shrug::shrug: Crazy



i was in the end induced, and like the poster above me, it was absolutely horredous in the true sense of the word, id never be willing to go thru that again.


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## Nyn

brilliant :)


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## Septie

I just have to chime in here, less than 2 weeks after my repeat section, and having read quite a bit of the medical literature:
UNCOMPLICATED vaginal delivery and a planned section prior to the onset of labor are the safest modes of delivery for the baby!!! Of course, nobody knows prior to the birth which women will experience an uncomplicated vaginal birth, and who will need induction, forceps, vacuum, emergency section etc. (many do!). The main planned section issue is a slight temporary breathing difficulty, but that is exceedingly rare for sections at 39 weeks or later. The typical stats on c-sections complications are contaminated by the fact that the planned sections are grouped with the emergency sections (when baby is often already in distress prior to the section!).
So when one advocates what's "best for baby" --- a planned section may well have to be considered!
My personal experience (3 people due around the same time I was): 1 uncomplicated vaginal, one failed week-long induction for a well overdue mother resulting in an emergency section, one vaginal birth with a forceps delivery with a baby that had to be resuscitated, and my uncomplicated planned section (with a healthy baby crying prior to being completely removed from the womb). I am happy with my outcome.
PS: My own recovery from my two sections: A breeze!


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## Snuffy

I have been given the choice of trying for VBAC or elective section and although I don't have to decide until December, I am leaning towards a section. My consultant hasn't tried to steer me either way and has said there is no right or wrong answer and I need to decide what is right for me. 

I'm not sure that the 60% VBAC success rate she cited is good enough for me to go down that route.


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## chuck

Snuffy if you dont have faith in your OB's VBAC rate find a better one. At 60% that is pretty poor.

The general success rate for a VBAC is the same as a vaginal birth for a first time mother...at least 75%...maybe higher depending on the circumstances of your previous labour (did you dilate/spontaneous onset of labour etc).

Problem with VBAC under the care of an OB in a hospital is that everything the recommend and push you to do is counterproductive for a successful labour. 

Even to start with the term 'trial of labour' is depressing, insisting on a cannula 'just in case' and constant fetal monitoring ergh...seriously why? It all restricts your movement and comfort makes you tense and stressed leading to poorer outcomes.

Find a better OB or dont bother with one, I didnt they were worse than useless, I went once and never wasted my time a 2nd time. Stayed under MW care and planned to HBAC - my MW agreed that I would get better care at home!


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## Snuffy

I had pre eclampsia diagnosed during abour last time and my kidneys started to shut down, so I'm happy for them to monitor all they like this time lol. 

As I understand it, the cannula is not connected to anything unless needed, it's just put in your hand in case fluids, etc are needed urgently as every second can count plus if your veins collapse they may not be able to find one to put it in at the last minute. If it hadn't been for the fluids they gave me last time to monitor how much was going in to how much was coming out they may not have spotted the problem with my kidney function until the damage was irreversible.

Therefore I have to agree that everything they suggest is counterproductive.


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## Carly2310

chuck said:


> Snuffy if you dont have faith in your OB's VBAC rate find a better one. At 60% that is pretty poor.
> 
> The general success rate for a VBAC is the same as a vaginal birth for a first time mother...at least 75%...maybe higher depending on the circumstances of your previous labour (did you dilate/spontaneous onset of labour etc).
> 
> Problem with VBAC under the care of an OB in a hospital is that everything the recommend and push you to do is counterproductive for a successful labour.
> 
> Even to start with the term 'trial of labour' is depressing, insisting on a cannula 'just in case' and constant fetal monitoring ergh...seriously why? It all restricts your movement and comfort makes you tense and stressed leading to poorer outcomes.
> 
> Find a better OB or dont bother with one, I didnt they were worse than useless, I went once and never wasted my time a 2nd time. Stayed under MW care and planned to HBAC - my MW agreed that I would get better care at home!

I think it's absolutely great that that worked out for you. But different people have different situations and sometimes monitoring and drs aren't only recommended but 100% needed.
I was told catagorically that even if I had decided to deliver naturally that due to the complications I encountered with my first birth I would HAVE to be monitored in hospital. The risk of me bleeding out again was too high to risk any other way and for me that wasn't an option.
Anyway as I say I think it's great for people who have successful VBAC but I also think that individual circumstances should always be taken into account, not everyone is as lucky as you were second time round.
Well done though! Glad it all went well for you!


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## Queenie D

I'm due to have my second baby at York Hospital in February. I had to have an 'elective' cs with my first 2 years ago due to her transverse position. I didn't particularly want it but I was told I had no choice. It wasn't a pleasant experience but I can't imagine that it's any better or worse than a natural delivery. My dd was born healthy and happy, we bonded immediately and I recovered surprisingly quickly and well. At the time, I was told that for any subsequent births I would be better off with a repeat section. I am now told that I will probably be forced to have a VBAC. I absolutely don't want this. I will be 41 when the baby is due, I have labile high blood pressure, SPD in both pregnancies, I'm overweight and have existing health problems including ME and arthritis in my legs. There is also a family history of stillbirths. Despite all the literature suggesting that a VBAC would probably not be the best option for me I have been told that basically I will now probably not qualify under 'medical reasons'. The specialist VBAC midwife at the hospital told me that it made her incredibly angry that maternal choice was a myth in certain hospitals and that administrative concerns about costs is the driving factor. The final decision will be entirely down to the consultant, and following this announcement I'm pretty sure which way that will go. The midwife has explained to me that for my 'natural' delivery I will be all but tied to a bed because of the amount of monitors I will be strapped to. I will be unable to move around, and against all my wishes the baby is likely to experience some sort of instrumental intervention in the delivery attempt. And that could still result in failure and I will end up with an emergency section anyway. I am now dreading the whole process. I do not consider myself too posh to push, nor do I consider myself psychologically scarred or frightened by the prospect of 'normal' labour. I do consider myself to be intelligent, informed and mature enough to understand and evaluate the risks to myself, my baby and the potential consequences for my family. I also hugely resent people's judgemental responses to my 'choice'.


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## chuck

I'm not meaning to say that the recommendations for VBAC dont serve a purpose but in an uncomplicated pregnancy and labour why bother?

In a uncomplicated VBAC you stand the same chances of success as a 1st time...are 1st time mums recommended to have a cannula or CFM? 

Still though an OB with only 60% success rate is not good, I wouldnt have faith that they attend enough vaginal births at all if that is their rate.


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## LuluLamar

Why should it be OK to ban women from choosing to have a C-sections if they so desire? If you don't want one, by all means do not get one. But banning them altogether is another way of taking away a woman's right to control her own body and birthing experience.


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## chuck

Hold on they're being banned unless for medical reasons. If a woman NEEDS one they still get one.


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## Queenie D

North Yorkshire is also out of step with current thinking. New guidelines are about to be released by NICE which are set to advocate the mother's right to choose a section regardless of medical reasons.

I can't post links apparently but it was on BBC news today.


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## chuck

> "Caesarean section without medical indication increases risk of short-term adverse outcomes for mothers. Caesarean section is one of the most commonly performed surgical operations in the world today. However, in a growing number of cases worldwide, caesarean section is being performed without any medical need. The rising number of such deliveries suggests that both health-care workers and their clients perceive the operation to be free from serious risks." ~World Health Organization

taken from birth without fear


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## Septie

I don't disagree that a section does pose some risks for the mother (and possibly future pregnancy) and those risks should be explained beforehand - but so should the stats and risks of instrumental delivery, emergency sections etc on the baby!! Also, planned sections around 39 weeks decrease the risk of stillbirth relative to waiting for women to go into labor.
Honestly, for those planning a vaginal delivery - did your doctor/midwife explain to you the risks associated with instrumental delivery or emergency section?


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## Maman

I think this is all very circumstantial and could be quite negative if im honest.

It means doctors will be deciding who gets to have a section and some doctors will have the approach that traumatic previous labours doesnt count as a reason. Some doctors dont 'beleive in psychology' ... what markers are they going to use to determine if a woman is psychologically in need of a section?

my friend and i had very similar first labours. Iam allowed to have a section for my second and my friend wasnt allowed it as an option. Its all down to the consultant. 

Now personally i think shes traumatised, and im not. I have one booked for 12 past my due date as i feel the induction caused all ym problems last time, so if baby wont come then the section will go ahead in place of induction. In all honesty, yes id like to just have a section- that way im in control, i know what to expect and they can sort out the mess theyve made inside my body (the permanent stitches are too tight) BUT ive agreed to 'give my body a chance' 

A lot of mums think im crazy for my view on this. Dont get me wrong, im all for the natural side, breastfeedign, babywearing etc... but i think sometimes a little balance has to be inserted in the name of what mum is comfortable with. I agree a first time mum should always give 'natural' birth a go unless an extreme circumstance, however a second time mum if she requests, should have the option. 

as for cost- the difference is what? a grand between a 'natural' and a section? how much do you think counselling for ptsd, anxieties, repair of damage to womens bodies years down the line etc all costs? more than a grand.


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